The Sun. — London, England, 1853-02-19 00:00:00

1, probably the subject under the consideration of her Ma 4esty's Ministers. Every one knows how much is at stake in the solution of that problem. It is a question not only of the place of Europe, but of the civilisation of the world. (Hear, hear.) And how have English statesmen hitherto dealt with it ? In what manner have they attempted to grapple with the difficulties of this ever -reverting h .ab e - ject of perplexity and peril ? Only in one way. They v. recognised but one means by which a temperat e, wiset? and successful issue could be insured. And what is that . The cordial -understanding with France. (Hee; e i criValways traditionary policy of that great em to feel that it must not sacrifice a high Pire interesthasl . 0 .. f a State q for any temporary success, or any petty and partial As long as sition which it might be able to secure d each other on France and England thoroughly nnderst and the this great question the peace of the wo rld Iwill inte rests of civilisation and humanity are no t in peril. b'ect of the assume the Turkish question to have been t he t su b Cabinet Council of four hours, an such p rolonged aleenu w deliberation. eotiv t any subject more worthy of . the can conceive her Majesty's Myers qui tting Council chamber deep in thought and fully impressed with the awful responsibility of their decision, and I can also con ceive the feeling of these same Ministers when next morn ing the read the speech at Halifax—(cheers and laughter) —and, found that their absent colleague had designated in terms of ignominy the sovereign power with whom they - were to, act as an ally, andtreated—as I willpresently show, the nation he rules'overasthelowest, in pointof civilisation, which it is possible to conceive. As regards the First Lord of the Admiralty, he has had a great deal of experience, to be sure, but then he has been a long time in opposition, and something might be said for him in the way of excuse on that account, if, indeed, so great a personage could con descend to an excuse. (Laughter.) The right honourable baronet might say, or some one might say for him, that he had been a good many years without attending a Cabinet Council, that no new council had been summoned before he went to his constituents—that he was called upon un expectedly, and without previous arrangement and under standing with his colleagues--that it was a strange thing he should have made such a business of it, but still these things would happen sometimes. (Cheers and laughter.) But what is the position of the President of the Board of Control ? He was hardly out of office but he was in again. (A laugh.) He had been in office for five or six years, and a hardish time he had of it, no doubt (a laugh) ; but, nevertheless, he agreed again to lend his gravity to the councils of his Royal mistress. (Laughter.) He was pro perly anxious that the people of this country should have none but discreet men to administer their affairs, and, therefore, without making any stipulations as to the policy or principles of the Government, he became a Minister again, and attended 20 Cabinet Councils before he went down to make the Halifax demonstration. (Cheers and. laughter.) And yet, with this renovated sense of respon sibility—knowing how much depended on everything said by a Minister under these circumstances—the right hon. gentleman, fresh from Cabinet Councils—knowing all the questions at issue, goes to his constituents, describes the ruler of the French in language which I have more than once referred to, and will not now repeat, and then pros ceeds, in a passage which I have not yet read to the house, to give the people of Halifax some idea of the conduct of the Emperor's subjects. The right hon. gentleman felt it necessary to vindicate the increased expenditure of the country to his constituents, and he showed them, as it was not difficult to do, that this expenditure had been incurred solely for self-defence. But then the right hon. gentleman went on to illustrate the importance of these defensive measures, " for," says he, " I do not think there will be a general war, but I tell you what you will have ; you will have bodies of 5,000 men suddenly thrown upon your coast, and how would you like that ?—how would your wives and daughters be treated ?" This is the description given ; but I will quote the words of a great Whig Minister, whose memory must be respected by every gentleman on the oppo site bench—l was going to say by every member of the Whig party, but that, perhaps, would be going too far. I remember reading the debate hich took place in the House of Lords on Pitt's great commercial treaty, and Lord Stor mont, I think it was, who opposed the treaty, argued that it would be dangerous for British merchants to invest so much money in France, because in the case of a war the French Government would seize upon all their capital ; whereupon Lord Shelburne—who then bore the honoured name of Lansdowne—ridiculed the sentiment, and inveighed against the speaker, saying, " One would suppose, in listen ing to the noble lord, that he imagines the French nation to be corsairs and bandits of Tunis and Morocco." That is what I say to the President of the Board of Control. The Halifax hypothesis is, that without declaring war, and in utter violation of the rules which govern civilised nations, the French will land bands of men on our coasts, to commit the desecrating enormities hinted at; and I say that the man who conceives this to be possible must imagine the bravest, the most ingenins, and the most polished people in the world to be no better than corsairs of Tunis and Morocco ,• and yet, after having said all these things, the right hon. gentleman writes a letter, in which, after making an apology to the Emperor of France —which is not a very handsome one, but let that pass—he proceeds to say—" I cannot conceive that an English Minister is to be precluded from adverting to what he up derstands to be the state of things on the continent." I will match that sentence against any that can be found in any dispatch ever written. (Laughter) Recollect, the writer of this important State memorial, addressed to the leader of the House of Commons, is apologising, and his object is to conciliate, and yet he says that he cannot con ceive that an English Minister is to be precluded from adverting to what he underitands to be the state of things on the continent. (Hear, hear.) My opinion is that an English Minister should not open his month on any subject, and certainly not upon what the President of the Board of Control calls " the state of things on the conti nent," without a grave sense of responsibility. (Cheers.) And, moreover, I think that if, under the circumstances, the President of the Board of Control felt it his duty to advert to what he supposed to be the state of things on the continent, he ought, as a Minister, to have been courteous in expression and conciliatory in language. But I cannot admit the principle that an English Minister shall take part in the most secret deliberations of the greatest kingdom of the world, and then leave the Cabinet to babble on a hust ings all that he has heard. {Hear, hear.) What Cabinet Ministers understand to be the sta te of things on the con tinent is a great secret of State. We have no right to ask them to divulge it in this house, much less in the Odd Fellows'-hall at Halifax. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) Up to the point to which I have now advanced it is evi dent that the sentiments of Ministers with respect to our relations with France are by no means of a satisfactory nature. There was no doubt as to the policy of the Go vernment of the noble lord the member for London on this point. There was no doubt also with respect to the policy of Lord Derby's Government. What is the policy of Lord Aberdeen's? This is not only a legitimate subject of investi gation, but it is absolutely our duty to obtain from the present Cabinet, if possible, something more satisfactory on this all-important subject than we have obtained from the speeches of two of its members. There are additional and peculiar reasons why the Government should make a decla ration on this occasion. When the present Government took office the head of it offered what is called a pro gramme of his policy in another place. This programme was so complete and lucid, according to the noble lord the member for London, that he felt it quite unnecessaryto add a single word to it. Now, this programme contained a de claration on the subject of foreign policy, and I beg to call the attention of the house to it. Remember who made it. Remember, it was made not only by the Prime Minister of England, but by one who has filled the highest offices of State, and especially more than once, and for a considerable time, that of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. All Ministers are bound to know something about everything, but the house will observe that the Chief Minister is bound to know everything on this subject, for it is one of which he is pre-eminently master. Let us, then, recal to recol lection the satisfactory programme given by Lord Aberdeen. His lordship did not dwell on the subject of foreign affairs at any great length, but what he did say was succinct and precise. He said it was unncessary to dilate on the topic, because the system and principle on which the foreign policy of this country had been conducted during the last 30 years was the same. I confess I listened to that decla ration with some astonishment. (Hear, hear.) I could not but recall to mind the tempestuous debates which only three years ago resounded in this house on the subject of foreign policy. I could not forget that the system and prin., ciples of foreign policy then pursued, and which had been pursued for years by the Government presided over by the noble lord the member for London, had been de scribed as perilous to the dignity of England, and, per haps, fatal to the peace of Europe. I could not but re member that this was the language used by the chosen col leagues of the Minister. (Cheers.) I could not but recol lect that Lord Aberdeen himself used, with reference to the then foreign policy and the principles on which it was conducted, an epithet rarely admitted into Parliamentary debate—for he stigmatised it as " abominable." I could not but recollect also that the great indictment of the foreign policy of the then Government was opened in this house with elaborate care and veheinent invective by the right hon. baronet now First Lord of the Admiralty. .(Cheers.) I therefore was somewhat ear prised at hearing Lord Aberdeen say that for 30 years there had been no difference in the principles on which the foreign policy of this country- had been carried on. I could not but recol lect, too, that the noble lord the member for London de nounced the principal instigator of those debates as one who did not take the foremost post, as he ought to have done, and as being in league with foreign conspirators for the most disgraceful object which it was possible for a British statesman, if it could be proved, to pursue. (Hear, hear.) I could not but remember the glowing and fervid eloquence with which the noble lord vindicated his noble friend the then Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and still a Secretary of State, when he said, " He is not a Mnister of Austria— (cheers.)—norof Russia, nor of France." (Cheers.) Who, then, was the Minister of Austria, Russia, and France ? (Cheers.) Who sat for the portrait ? (Cheers and laughter.) It is the portrait of the present Prime Minister of England, drawn by his leader of the House of Commons) and he has paid the artist for his performance by degrading him from the post of which he was worthy. (Loud cheers.) The recollection of these facts, coupled with the statement in the panegyrised statement of the Chief Minister, and the indiscretions of two of his Cabinet • Ministers whose conduct I have been considering, in _ duces me to think that we require some satisfactory assurances from th e Government on this important subject. I give the noble lord the member for Lon don credit for adhering to the sentiments which he expressed last year ; but, alas 1 he is no longer Prime Minister, and the country will require more formal as surances, now that the n oble lord's position is changed. I think the house w en agree that I am takin no unfair or factions course. rOh r from the Ministe rial, and cheers from the Opposition benches.) Perhaps the hon. gentle men opposite will favour us with their ideas of faction if they think I am not justified in asking for a frank expla nation of the views of Ministers on a subject of the great est importance to the people of England. H ere is a dom. ment which has been put into my hands since I came into the house, and to which I would not have alluded had it not been for the indiscreet movement of hon. gentlemen opposite—(a laugh)—who seem to insinuate that the obser vations I am making with a view to elicit information are unnecessary. They shall hear what is the opinion of the merchants, bankers, and traders of the city of London on the subject. The document I hold in my hand is an invi tation to a meeting of those classes who feel called upon at this time publicly to express their deep concern at wit nessing the endeavours continually made to create and per petuate feelings of distrust, ill-will, and hostility between the inhabitants of the two great nations of England and France. I therefore recommend some of the hon. mem bers who attempted to disturb my observations—if they should not favour us with their opinions to-night—to go to the London Tavern and tell the merchants, bankers, epd traders of England that they are exhibiting a factious e• - • e ' e'.ling towards the Government because they feel alarmed - aretdisquieted as to their commercial transactions. (Hear, , • heak;) I will not be deterred from asking the ques '. •• tiota m about to put. I say we have a right to ask ?lin* sto declare upon what system our foreign policy - . 'to. conducted. Let them explain the mysterious Pa- 11 in Lord Aberdeen's programme. Is their - BY obe one of " liberal energy," or " antiquated • ' ' beilitr?" (Laughter.) That is the real question. When ble lord °place' t• • • ' theAp wa s v in d ica ting lumseli on the mei- ~~ the friendly disposition of France. Now, we could not shut our eyes to the fact that there had been quite an opposite opinion entertained out of doors. The general tone of the press—almost the unanimous tone of the London ision to which I have adverted, he took credit for the liberal energy of his policy, and described the principles recom mended by his present chief as being a system of antiquated imbecility. We therefore should know clearly whether our foreign policy is to be conducted on a principle of liberal energy or antiquated imbecility. If the principles of our foreign policy have never changed, how can the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the First Lord of the Ad miralty vindicate the course which they formerly took, the resolutions which they then supported, and the sentiments they then expressed? I think they will find it a difficult task. (Hear, hear.) I have no doubt the noble lord is perfectly convinced of the justice and truth of the senti ments he expressed in 1852. Anything that falls from his lips on such a subject —or, indeed, upon any subject—as Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, is entitled to the highest consideration. But, how long is he going to re main Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs ? (Cheers.) I am not speaking now from mere rumour. I ask—and it is a legitimate question in a debate on our foreign policy— why did the noble lord take the important post he oceu. pies ? Was it because his opinions on the French connec tion were well known ? Well, is he going to leave the post because his Cabinet, or the majority of his Cabinet, does not agree with those opinions? This,, therefore, is clearly a subject on which some explanation is due •to the house. (Loud cheers.) I know I may be met, but I hardly think I shall be met, by the allegation that I have no right to suppose the noble lord is about to quit the office he is so competent to occupy. I said, Ido not speak from rumour on this point, and I will now state to the house the authority on which I said so. It is a paragraph in a paper—a journal. I hope, notwithstanding the conduct of the journals that have criticised some of us, it will not be undervalued on that account. It is, to bor row an expression from our neighbours, " A communica tion," and it appears in a journal of great respectability. It appears, in a large letter, in a prominent place, in a newspaper, and commences with the significant words, " We are authorised to state"—in fact, it is redolent of Downing-street, and no doubt comes from it. (A laugh.) This first paragraph—for there have be four of *them — informs us that the arrangements, w ' ere not quite made when the Cabinet was formed, a ow pretty well for on settled ; the noble lord the member don is to con tinue leader of the House of Common but is to relinquish the office of Secretary of State, and he will probably not assume any other office. I have not the paragraphs here, and it was only by chance I read them yesterday, but I can state pretty nearly the substance of them. That was a very strange announcement, no doubt ; but then came the second paragraph. We understood from the first that the noble lord had accepted office as Secretary of State provisionally ; but people wero surprised at this ' • and then there came forth another paragraph, in which they were " authorised to state" that this was a mistake, that the noble lord was not to hold office as Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but was to have some office where there was nothing . to do somewhere in the neighbourhood of Waterloo-bridge. (A laugh.) In fact, the only place the description met was that of the toll-gatherer of that un fortunate bridge. (Roars of laughter.) Well, Sir, that paragraph was not satisfactory. The noble lord, what ever the opinions of some of us may be, is rather a fa vourite of the people of England—(hear, hear, hear) — and they did not consider that was exactly the treat ment to which a man of his position was entitled. (Cheers.) There was then another paragraph, in which it was stated " on authority" that all the other paragraphs were erro neous—that the noble lord was going to resign, the office of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, but was certainly to continue leader of the house, and that he was to have a room allowed him in the office of the Secretary of State. (Laughter.) But the climax was reached when a fourth, and rather an angry paragraph, written, it seemed, with some feeling of personal indignation, appeared, in which it was stated that nothing could be more erroneous or pre mature than the announcements that the noble lord was going to remain in the Foreign-office—that he was not to continue leader of the House of Commons—that he was to have a room in the Foreign-office—a small room, I think it said—but that he was to be allowed two clerks. (Much. laughter.) Sir, I confess I must protest against this sys tem of shutting up gieat men in small rooms, and of bind ing to the triumphal chariot wheels of administrative abi lity all the fame and genius of the Whig party. (Cheers.) I think I have a right to ask the noble lord frankly—" Are yon Secretary of State, or are you not?" (Loud cheers.) If he is Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs he will no doubt, on the subject we are treating of to-night, afford us very satisfactory information ; but, if he is Secretary of State now, but is not to be Secretary of State to-mor row, I think the declaration of the noble lord, on a ques tion of foreign policy, is much depreciated in the value which wo would otherwise attach to it. (Hear, hear.) Sir, considering the conduct of the First Lord of the Admi ralty—conduct which I will not describe, for, to say that it was the result of design would be offensive, and to say that it was indiscreet would, as I said before, be im pertinent • considering the conduct of the Secretary of the Board of oontrol, which, be it designed or indiscreet, or anything else, no epithets can rescue him from the position he occupies,—considering the programme of the First Minister, which contradicts all our most recent experiences and confounds all our convictions,—considering the myste rious circumstances which attend on the present occupation of the post of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs by the noble lord the member for London, I think I have a right to ask for what has not yet been accorded—some clear ex planations from the Government with respect to the rela tions which exist between this country and France. (Cheers:) There is one other reason why I am bound to pursue this inquiry at the present moment, and I find that reason in the present state of parties in this house. It is a peculiar state of things—it is quite unprecedented—it is well deserving the attention of hon. members who sit in that quarter of the house (pointing to the benches below the gangway on the Ministerial side). We have at this moment a Conservative Ministry, and we have a Conserva tive Opposition. (Cheers.) Where the great Liberal party is, I pretend not to know. (Cheers.) Where are the Whigs—with their great traditions—with two centuries of L Parliamentary lustre, and deeds of national patriotism ? (Loud cheers.) There is no one to answer. (Renewed cheering.) - Where, I ask, are the youthful energies of Radicalism its buoyant expectations its expanded hopes ? Awakened, I fear, from the dreams of that ardent inexperience which attends sometimes the career of youth, it finds itself at the same moment used and dis carded—(cheers)—used without compunction, and not discarded with too much decency. (Cheers.) Where are the Radicals t Is there a man in the house who declares himself to be a Radical ? (Hear, hear.) No, not one, He would be afraid of being caught and turned into a Conservative Minister. (Laughter.) Well, how has this curious state of things been brought about ? Where is the machinery by which it has been effected—the secret sys tem that has brought on this portentous political calamity? I believe I must go to that inexhaustible magazine of po litical devices, the First. Lord of the Admiralty, to explain the present state of affairs. The house may recollect that some two years ago, when I had the honour of addressing them on a subject f great importance, the First Lord of the Admiralty afforded us, as is his wont, one of those politi cal creeds in which his speeches abound ; and the right hon. gentleman on that occasion, in order that there might be no mistake—in order that the house and the country should be undeceived, and that they should not have any false expectations from, especially the Conservative or Pro tectionist party, said, in a manner the most decided, that his political creed was this:—" I take my stand on pro gress." Well, sir, I thought at the time that progress was an odd thing to ake one's stand upon. (Laughter and cheering.) I thought at the time that a statesman who took his stand on progress might find he had got a very slippery foundation. I thought at the time, though the right hon. gentleman weighs his words, that this was a piece of oratorical slip-slop. But I apologise for the mo mentary suspicion. I take the earliest opportunity of ex pressing to the right hon. gentleman my sincere regret that , I had for a moment supposed he had made an inadvertent observation. I find that it was a system perfectly matured, and now brought into action, of which the right hen: gentle- man spoke. For we have now got a Ministry of " progress," and every one stands still. We never hear the word" reform" now; it is no longer a Ministry of reform; it is a Ministry of progress, every member of which resolves to do nothing. (Laughter.) All difficult questions are suspended. All questions which cannot be agreed upon are open questions. Now, I don't want to be unreasonable, but I think there ought to be some limit to this system of open questions. (Cheers.) It is a system which has hitherto prevailed only partially in this country, and which never has prevailed with any advantage to it. Let us, at least, fix on some limits to it. Let Parliamentary reform, let the ballot be open questions if you please ; let every inststution in Church and State be open questions; but, at least, let your answer to me to-night prove that, among your open ques tions, you are not going to make one of the peace of Europe. (Loud cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL.—If the right hon. gentleman wished to obtain an explanation from Government with respect to the state of its foreign policy, he might have confined his observations to a very small portion of that which he has addressed to the house ; for the statement I made the other night, that we were on terms of intimate friendship with France, and that we were acting in concert with France, with the view of maintaining the peace of Europe, might almost have sufficed for a member of this house who was anxious to obtain some assurance on that important question. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman, when he sat on this side of the house, observed, with respect to a change which was proposed to be made in some adminis trative department, with respect to economy as regards the conduct of public business in a public office, that if that question was introduces into the house he was afraid it would unfortunately be made a party question. There is no doubt, if that were the case, and if questions with re spect to how many clerks were to be in one office, and as to whether there should be two or three clerks in another office, had been made party questions, it would have said very little for the patriotism of the house ; but, at least, the evil, though somewhat scandalous, would not have been very calamitous. But when the right hon. gentleman tries to make a party question of our foreign policy— (cheers) —when he tries to throw suspicion on the inten tions of Government towards our nearest neighbour (cheers)—when he tries to sow dissension between two of the most powerful countries of Europe—then, indeed, he ' makes a party question a calamity, and in bringing for ward such a question in the spirit manifested in his speech, takes a part which becomes a mind deeply imbued with faction. (Loud cheers.) Sir, I said the other night, and I repeat it now, that the Government of this country is on terms of amity with the French Government. (Hear.) I was happy to hear the right hon. gentleman say that the domestic policy of France was a matter of concern for them, and not for us, and that we were not to interfere in their domestic concerns. Well indeed would it have been if these sentiments had prevailed in this house in February, 1793. I cannot help reflecting what torrents of blood might have been spared, and what millions of • treasure might have been saved—(cheers)—if it had been then laid down as a principle by all the statesmen in this house that we should not interfere in the domestic concerns of neigh bouring countries. (Hear.) But what other explanation is it the right hon. gentleman requires? The right hon. gentleman alluded to a speech of mine in February, 1852. To all the sentiments of that speech I still adhere. There is one misreport in that speech to which I may as well allude. lam supposed to have said that the measures adopted by the President were no doubt for the welfare of France. What I stated was, that no doubt the President considered the measures he had taken were for the welfare of France. (Hear, hear.) I did not deny that it may be necessary in certain cases to take all power out of the hands of the people, and the rifler of France no doubt might have thought it was necessary to do so at that period. Whether it was or was not necessary was' a question on which I of course did not pass an opinion, on which I do not pass an opinion now. (Hear, hear.) I thought it was a lamentable sight, during the last five years, to see France throw off the monarchy under which (as we understood — for the noble lord's words at the time did not reach us) she had been peaceful and prosperous, and place herself under a republic so strangely constituted that it seemed as if all its elements were framed to make war on each other ; and that that intestine war could only have been brought to a termination by surrendering the most valuable powers a people could exercise ;—that indeed has . been a melancholy spectacle. But I hoped that the talented and ingenious people, who in 1789 began the reform of their constitution, might have arrived by this time at that which is the most desirable and important of all national blessings, and I still believe they will find the means, when the fear of that extreme democracy has subsided by which their government can be improved, and that we shall still see them enjoying those institu tions, not exactly similar to ours, but as nearly so as is suited to the character of the people, which are calculated to bring to perfection and reward the exercise of peaceful industry'and the attainments of superior talent. In that spirit, therefore, I looked on the events which have taken place in France with every desire to suppose that the ruler of that country was intent on putting an end to anarchy and disorder, 'and on perfecting such a Government as would give rest to the people. (Hear, hear.) It happened that the Government which fol lowed, which was the Government of the Earl of Derby, had another question to consider of very grave importance—namely, the recognition of the imperial dig nity in the person of the ruler of France—the recognition of a dynasty almost—certainly the recognition of a prince under the title of Emperor, and in the name of Napoleon 111. It was natural that the powers of Europe, with the recollection in their minds of what had occurred from 1804 to 1814, should have wished to obtain some assurance that the Government about to be constituted should adopt the international acts of the Government which had preceded it ; but the Government of this country, by the advice of Lord Derby and the Earl of Malmesbury, took that secu rity which they thought necessary, and, when they had obtained that security, at once acknowledged the Emperor of France by the title of Napoleon 111. They did not wait till the other powers had come to a similar decision. My belief is they did well and wisely in that decision. I have examined the correspondence which took place on the occasion, and the conclusion to which I came certainly is that the Earl of Malmesbury, in that correspondence, while he showed the utmost conciliation, at the same time main tained the dignity of this country. (Cheers.) Therefore lam not going to blame the Government which preceded um for any step it took on that occasion. No doubt that early recognition tended to conciliate the Government of France, and, therefore, when we entered into office we found the basis laid for the most amicable relations with France. I believe, as I have stated often in this house, that a good understanding in this country with France is of the great est value to the promotion of the happiness of both coun• tries, and to the peace of Europe. And not with France alone, because I think a conciliatory policy should 'be adopted toward all the powers of Europe ; and, as far 'as I can see, all these powers are disposed so to shape their conduct as to maintain peace in Europe. Upon that great question to which the right hon. gentleman has alluded—namely, the question of Turkey, it is no doubt most desirable to act with a good understanding with France. But at the same time I think it is the duty of this country, disinterested as it is upon this question, to preserve that attitude which can enable it to give friendly advice to all those States among whom a difference may arise; to maintain the kingdom of Turkey from any aggres sima, and at the same time to accomplish that by negotia tion and by friendly counsel. Sir, that end will, I trust, be accomplished. The right hon. gentleman has alluded— and I think most unnecessarily—to speeches that have been made at the hustings by two of my right hon. colleagues. Now, I ask, if those speeches raised any doubt in hie mind. was it not enough for the right hon. gentleman to ask what were the real intentions of the Government towards France? What purpose could these allusions answer but that of ex citing irritation in the public mind, and thereby producing a suspicion which might not otherwise have been created? And yet this is from a right hon. gentleman who in the early part of his speech declared he had nothing so much at heart as a cordial understanding between the two countries. My right hon. friends who have spoken on the hustings with regard to what they thought of the Government of France, did so, no doubt, without intending to dist urb in any way our foreign relations. They had not taken the pre caution of consulting their memory in order to mai: e their speeches, nor had they a commonplace book for the purpose of noting those speeches. (A laugh.) Incautious, words may therefore have dropped from them, but I am sure that nothing was further from their intention than to 'disturb the good understanding which prevails between this country and France. (Hear, hear.) While upon this topic I must allude to the statement of the right hon. gentleman that the Earl of Aberdeen said nothing more than this—that foreign politics of this country would be the same as they had been for the last 30 years. The right hon. gentleman entirely omitted reference to the fact that Lord Aberdeen went on to realm some observations which, as he has ne glected to give them I will read to the house, as they are sentiments with which I entirely concur, and contain in themselves sufficient to make known the general opinions of the Government with regard to foreign affairs. The noble lord said, with respect to policy of this country— ibofleoforromowtnhehoinn: tot S heu t . l a orn t a e a s nl , general at affairs interests a d i t e i es s pr i reee peace te t o se: t hoa a fen b i Ed. s t e, u raeai countries, upo tev a r e s i ebansy m a u " It has been marked by a respect due to all independ en t n ch as as sert p i o o ss n , s. n a s n u e e h a m m e e s a t h d s e s a i s r e w t ( et r ) e secure . ticable and at our disposal. .I do not say that differences may not have existed, or that sympathies may not have been ex cited, on behalf of certain States in their endeavours. to pro mote constitutional reforms and to obtain constitutional go vernment ; but the principle of our policy had always been to respect the independence, the entire independence, of other States, great or small, and not to interfere in their in ternal concerns. That will continue to be the case, and I trust that we shall still retain the friendship and goodwill of all foreign countries, whatever the nature of their Govern ment or Constitution." That, sir, was a clear announcement of the policy of the Government, that whatever might be our wishes for the liberty of other countries, wo should not think it fitting to interfere with their internal Government or Consti tution. (Hear, hear.) Sir, I believe that by so conduct ing ourselves, and by maintaining peaceable relations with foreign Governments, we shall better advance the civilisation of mankind than by any active interference to force upon them our own form of institutions. (Hear.) But the right hon. gentleman went on, and, venturing upon what I think was somewhat dangerous ground for him, he said that there was a want of principle in the pre sent Government. The present Administration is formed of men who, in the great contest which was carried on for ten years, and which was carried on most perseveringly un til the beginning of last year by a great party, have agreed upon the general principles of commerce and finance which have at length finally triumphed. That was the great ground of contest during this period, and those who sit in the present Cabinet have always been found upon the same side with respect to these questions. But, as to the right hon. gentleman opposite, after contendinc , from 1842 to 1846 in favour of free trade, and from 184eto 1852 in favour of protection—(a laugh)—what was the course pur sued by his party in 1852 ? First, we had a declaration on the part of the leader of that party very clearly and de cidedly in favour of protection. Then there was the for mation of a Ministry in which no man could say what was the principle adopted. (Hear.) One man represented the Government as favourable to Protection, another repre sented them as favourable to free trade, and the head of that Government, the Earl of Derby, declared that his opinion was to be formed not by the study of commerce or finance—not by the writings of political economists—not by his own observation, or his own very considerable abi lities—but by the votes of 1,000,000 electors in the United Kingdom, who were to make his opinions, and to form his policy ; and yet the organ of that Government in the House of Commons comes forward and twits us now for being without pribciples in forming a Ministry. (Cheers.) The fact is, Sir, that that party to which the right hon. gentleman belongs—and I must again remind him of it—have gone wrong very much because they would never take the advice which I ventured to give them. (A laugh.) In 1841 I told them they never would get any thing better than an Bs. duty. They would not accept of that. In 1845 I told them that if they would take a 6s. duty and get something taken off the burdens of which they complained, it would probably be the last time upon which compact. They would they could make so advantageous a if not hear of it. But in 1849 I told them that they would th •general ' then give up protection and adhere to . their prin ciples with regard to the Crown and with regard to consti tuted authority, they would always be a very large and powerful party, in this country, having a great influence on and that they could not the deliberations of the country, . t impression upon the councils fail very soon to makella theye would not take that advice, of the Ministry. W uld have been Ministers at this hour. or they probably would v would h av e given up protection in 1849, they would They have stood upo n their general principles a most compact d we should not found them to be last year, an . . party, as we that discreditable pe them having to go through . . have seen one opinion of their history, when they turned from . riod ' themselves for protection on the , to another, all declaring doubtful whether to be for it or eve of taking office, then in favour of a free-trade last voting in a mass not, and at might otherwise have possessed resolution, whereas they power both now and foryears to come. I don't know whether I ought to givesomethem any more advice—(laughter) bad use of all that I have before —they have made such use at all; but still I would venture given them, or rather no offs, without abandoning any prin. to say, that while out of by th rinciples which they have long eiples, standing firmly p the moment whether those princi held, and not caring at they yet should not come for plea were successful or not, active in displaying their ward to make themselves too welfare of • h makes for the peace and hostility to that which ma may depend upon it, al the country. (Cheers.) gentleman thinks the reforms that though the right hon. _ lid IA and that we ought to d are not su cie , we have propose r reforms --they maydepend upon have produced much large. ne and atm ggles of last year, it that, after the contentio oaTess which we propose, the whatever may be the y e Pr a short time at least of peaceable country would glaal- see these great convulsive struggles progress, without any convinced that those who say they of parties ; and I am cononditions and that they will be will not submit to such tlte of thin 'gs, and even will take restless in the present s . _ inadvertently be dropped hearses which Easy 'II advantage of p asiness in our foreign affairs, wi in order to produce uneasiness the c onfidence of the people. (Loud not gain to themselves ge ntleman has alluded to me, and cheers.) The right hon. t ge resent I have the honour to hold. to the position which at O the full conviction which 1en.... I occupy that posit the desire of the country, that al tertain that it is reall y Whi and another a Conserva u maybe a g t a Minis hough one ma divisions ought not to prevent ttive-Liberal, Minis those hich shall connect as many men as try being formed w agree in their vi p_nciples, and her ho can tion of the possible toget of Ming on the administra . h t who are capable cas_ anything that I can do, in w t a country. (Cheers.) :-, fficelr'belonging to the Government ever capacity A. 0 _ dovernment, in order ems sea ' rrY to not belonging to the . to effect, it will be my desire do. wish of the countryyil I may men ti o n myself, raketherearae (M u ch, cheering.) 11 i ternal policy upon which I ti two questions of n n other. They are the qups e o n_ greater interest than y of an y people, and. the question. off of the education oot i n • the representattieon a further amendment hea.) I cannot be pushed onto either the people. (Hear, if to urge others to bring forward, rd Illy" , or k are either out bring forward subjects which I thin measure upon t hose . with will not be likely to meet a as t state of the of time, or are I believe, in the Profsen . successful issue. h ul that and of that kin s 0 d .t desirable d deliberately introduced. country, i isweighed,and carefully an be fully ve that in adopting the so so sentiments lam (Hear.) I belie D ither the great majori y t a this house or not differing from the t 'b te to people, and if I can con ri . u the great mass o being prepare& and ultimately such as those I contribute anything measures . the meantime can carried, and if in a Ministry whi ch I believe is formed of t o the stability of in t en t upon the goo d of the country and me n both hon estl y i n to effect wise measures with due ca pable of carry i ' ng be my pride and glory to have done so. deliberation , it will (Loud cheers.) said w ith reference to the main subject Mr. COBDEN sal , 9 tec h—the maintenance of of the right h on. gentleman's sp with France — that was a practical quea frienfdly relations and one upon a v hich the c ountr y just now was deeply tion, Tight rgt hon . gentleman, in opening his eoncerned • t o oho! that he entertained a belief in remarks, labtp.r ad press—had been one of great distrust towards the present Government of France. The right hon. gentleman had said he did not share in anyapprehension of that sort, butwhen in power a few months ago, the right hon. gentleman had proposal a large increase to our arms, and laboured to show that that increase was not made with reference to the exist- ing temper of the country towards France, but that it was a continuation of a system of increase arising out of the change in the system of steam navigation. Now, he must csll the right hon. gentleman's attention to the fact, that the increase in the naval force which he proposed was not an increase of steam machinery, but one of men, and the transition from the use of sailing vessels to that of steamers did not imply the necessity of a larger number of sailors, but quite the contrary. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman, therefore, did but give a sanction to the feeling oat of doors by the step he had taken, and he must say too that the present Government, while they preached of peace with France, and of the good intentions of ,this country towards it, did not make their conduct correspond with their professions. Here was the difficulty out of doors. There was great mistrust out of the house. -Right hon. gentlemen on both sides said they did not share in that mistrust, but how did they act ! What were words spoken in public and lines in a newspaper compared with the preparation of 12 line-of-battle ships with screws to be stationed in our Channel, besides a large contingent of s t eamers ? (Hear, hear.) These were the things which really endangered our understanding with France. It was not the newspaper articles, nor the speeches made, but these preparations for hostilities, which were calculated to produce uneasiness in the public mind at home and un easiness abroad. The right hon. gentleman expressed his belief that diplomatic services were of great use gene rally, and he had enumerated how, during his short tenure of office, the ambassadors of this country had succeeded in preventing a rupture in Switzerland, in arranging the opening of the navigation of the South American rivers, in negotiating upon the subject of Cuba, and claimed great credit for diplomacy that it had be en so use f u lly e mployed. f N or ow l y of ro.mCaoolsden) would suggest a new employment this country, and one which, if adopted, would involve a plan u p on w hi c h they might uphold a party. Would the Go vernmen t d evo t e their the he diplomacy di plomacy to the putting an end to this system of mutual rivalry ? (Hear.) Could not our ambassadors—if the state of affairs in Buenos Ayres, or Cuba, or the United States were such as to require their i n t er f erence — exc h ange a com munication with the French Government as to their rivalry in naval preparations now going on ? (Hear.) We paid very large sums for th e suppor t o f our di p l oma ti s t s . W as it not in their power and within the compass of their ability to do something in this way to preserve our friendly rela tions ? He (Mr. Cobden) would undertake to say that in five minutes he would frame a note to the French Govern ment which would answer the purpose, and in which he would ask that Government if they were prepared to come to such an understanding as to agree with us in a reduc tion of our warlike preparations. Was there anything im practicable in such a proposition ? He had not the least doubt that such a note would be responded to in a manner which would totally change the feelings of the two coun tries towards each other. (Hear, hear.) It must not be imagined that the feeling out of doors was such as it had been assumed to be. Here was an extract from a letter written a few days ago by a gentleman, "S. G. 0.," who sometimes signed his name and sometimes his initials. Speaking with reference to the preparations of the French, that gentleman said ss-- " When burglars are about we examine the scullery and cellar windows, we try the fastenings of our doors, hang up bells to warn us, get dogs and police to watch for us, and go to bed in confidence that we are so prepared against attack that few are likely to attempt it." The writer was speaking of our French neighbours —a na tion in many respects as civilised as ourselves, and he treated them as burglars ! That was the argument ; there was no other attempted ; the writer made a comparison between guarding our doors against burglars and repelling attacks from our French neighbours. Well, but right hon. gentlemen encouraged all this, because they went on pre paring as if they expected those attacks. There was no Tahiti, no Syrian business in hand now, and yet they con tinued preparing. What wonder, then, that people out of doors should go on arguing in this way ? He did not see why they should not deal with the present question just as they would upon a question affecting Cuba, or any other similar matter. If our diplomatists could adjust matters in the one case, could they not be trusted with a negotia tion which would rid this country of the expense and alarm consequent upon these continued preparations ? He was charged sometimes with entertaining fanatical views, but ho put the present case forward upon the most moderate and humble grounds. He would put his confidence in any Government which would attempt such a negotiation as this. He did not require that they should succeed ; they would not be accountable for want of success ; but ho did ask them to try, and not to go on blindly increasing our forces as they were doing. If they made a poposal to France in the conciliatory tone of which he had spoken, seeking to come to an explanation by which these mu tually dangerous armaments might be reduced, and if France did not respond in the same tone —if she showed any sinister designs, with a view to take us by surprise and to profit by our security, he would vote, if necessary, 100,000,0001. sterling to defend this country against French invasion. But what he asked was not to go on increasing armaments which did not alter the relative forces of the two countries. H E , wanted our statesmen to treat this as an arithmetical ques tion, and to remember that, if the naval force of`France stood to that of this country in the ratio of 5 to 15, and that if one-third were taken from each, both countries would still stand in the same relative proportion, and have the same strength as now. (Hear.) He had a right to ex pect this policy from the present Government, because the Earl of Aberdeen had long said these preparations for war were the great dangers of peace. The Government, by these increased armaments, were,. in fact, rising up a powerful party who had an interest in keeping the country in a state of constant irritation, only just short of hostili ties. Our increased preparations—our 12 line-of-battle ships in the Channel, and our powerful fleet in the Medi terranean—were of course looked upon with great jealousy elsewhere. The French Government recollected what they had suffered in previous years from our fleets, and they felt that a deep responsibility was thrown upon them to increase their own armaments. The Journal des Debats, one of the most pacific of the French journals—(hear)—always favourable to the English alliance and friendly to free trade, said, upon the 22d of January— " While the English journals are every day citing, as a proof of the warlike disposition of our Government, the ex traordinary armaments which they allege to be going on in our ports, and the pretended increase in the number of our screw steam-ships, we observe that in England they are busily augmenting their navy, and making considerable additions to their armaments. We are tempted to believe that the English press, in declaiming so much about these imaginary doings in France, have no other object but to divert attention from the very serious preparations going on in that country." The tone of our press elicited the following remarks in the Constitutionnel of Feb. 7 : " When we see with what miserable gossip the terrors of the English people are excited, we are astonished that their good sense can be so easily imposed upon. Nothing is too absurd with some of their journals for increasing this ludic rous panic. The sight of an armed brig in the distance, or even the appearance of a foreign fishing-boat on the horizon, is instantly metamorphosed by the invasionist newspapers into another Armada, and the English people, resolute and energetic as they are, who with their own unaided strength could hold their island home against the united forces of the whole continent, are credulous enough for the moment to be imposed upon by these hobgoblin stories." Ho had tried to ascertain whether anything was going on in France to justify this alarm. The noble lord (J. Russell) said there was not, and that nothing was done but what France, as a great maritime power, was entitled to do. But that statement was totally at variance with what had been going on for the last two or three month. We were told of all sorts of surprises that awaited us. A Belfast paper, for example, gave the following statement from an Edinburgh correspondent : " We have received from an Edinburgh correspondent a letter, dated the 29th ult., in which it is stated that during the last week a French steamer has been cruising off Berwick, and every night the men are engaged in taking soundings of the Tweed, while during the day artists are employed in ma king sketches of the coast. Our contemporary adds that this steamer, having completed its mission at Berwick, has gone to Newcastle on a similar errand." Another paragrdph of a like sinister character announced that Mr. Napier, the eminent ship-builder, had received an order to build six first-class steam-frigates. Then we saw a letter from Rome, in which we were told that the French soldiers there wanted to share the plunder of London upon the invasion. Now, he never heard any authoritative contradiction of these rumours. Then there was a rumour that the Government had been making inquiries of the railways to know how many troops and how much materiel could be conveyed to a given point ; and there was a report that the Government were going to strengthen the forti fications at Tilbury Fort. Every Government seemed to allow these reports to go on without contradiction, and some of the journals supposed to be in the interest of the right hon. gentleman and his party were amongst the worst. They worked up the public feeling, and then the Government went on increasing our armaments, but pooh poohed the press and denounced the journals as incendiaries. He thought the Government more to blame than the press for such a course of action. A few weeks ago the Lord- Lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire (the Earl of Harewood), when reviewing the militia, made an address to them, in which he said : " The time is shortly coming, in my opinion, when every. body throughout the realm will have cause to be thankful for your coming forward in defence of their homes, their cons stitution, and their Queen." He believed there was a new party to be formed, and that they wanted a principle. He was not going to speak in a democratic sense, but it was especially important to the right hon. gentleman and the party he led that this country should pursue a course of economy and frugal government. He did not now speak of free trade, but of the tendency of the people to emigrate to other countries. That was a new fact in which those who held the broadest acres were the most deeply interested. (Cheers.) They had rivals in other countries —in Canada, in Australia, in New Zealand, and, above all, in the United States —and these countries were beginning to absorb our population. They had seen lately the vast extent to which our popula tion could emigrate to other countries, and that, too, at a time of great prosperity at home. But suppose a reverse should not take place, He would not allow that things would be so bad as they had been, but there were causes which might produce depression and discouragement. Suppose then a reverse , ,and that we had a vast emigration to more favoured countries. Suppose that the emigration should go on to such an extent as materially to lessen the number of shoulders that had to bear the public burdens. Who must be left in mortgage for the public burdens ? The landowners ; and they were the class most interested in a frugal expenditure. But they went on lavishing money on the national defences, and spening 15,000,0001. or 16,000,000/.• a-year for warlike expenditure, and yet they were calling out that the country was defenceless. The Federal Government of the United States cost 9,000,0001. a-year, and the State Government 4,000,000/. so that the Federal and State Governm ent o f 24,000,000 of people was carried on, the interest of the debt paid, and a sinking fund provided, for 13,000,000 1 • a-year . Austra lia and other colonies were without any debt at all, and almost without taxation, and yet we were g o ing on wast ing mu , money as if there was no end to the wealth we Possessed. The expenditure for warlike purposes was said to be necessary as an insurance against France ; but, if it were possible to prevent a portion of this expenditure, we were not in a position to despise the saving . It was no ad vantage that France was suffering from the same cause, and that sh e t oo was wasting 3,000, 000 /. o r 4,000,0001. only a -year in unnecessary war armaments. That was btof in creasing the evil, and the people not only of France u Germany would run away to other countnoo unless the old E LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 19, 185 3. countries of Europe mended their system. Three years ago he brought forward a motion recommending negotiations for international reductions of force. He hoped now, that if the House would not undertake to recommend the at tempt to be made, the country would follow the advice of Sir R. Peel, and put such a pressure on members as to bring the matter to an issue. For himself, he would give his confidence to no Government that would not make the attempt, and enter into communication with other govern ments with the desire of putting a stop to this increase of armaments. (Hear, hear.) •- - Sir J. GRAHAM.—I am extremely sorry that the hon• member for the West Riding has stated that he would give his confidence to no Government that would not go to France and the other powers of Europe and America with a demand that they should disarm. Mr. COBDEN had thought he was not liable to misre presentation. What he said 'was,. that he would give his confidence to no Government that would not endeavour to stop the increase of armaments. He would take his stand upon the motion which he brought forward three years ago on this subject. Sir J. GRAHAM.—Not having referred to the terms of the hon. gentleman's motion, I take the correction as he suggests it, and I say that if the Government are not to enjoy his confidence unless they make a proposal to other . . Governments that this disarmament shall take place, anc promise it on their part, and although I am sere that the hon. gentleman would write a most excellent note, yet my opinion is deeply seated that, whatever the excellence of that note, it would not be attended with the success that he expects. At all events, when we recollect the slight occasions which may give rise to unexpected hostilities, and the effects of such outbreaks, if we are not armed, I cannot be a party not to make every preparation which the state of our relations with foreign powers in my humble judgment may require. (Cheers.) Having said that, I will add that no member of this house is more attached to peace and to an economical administration of affairs than I ever have been and still am. (Hear, hear.) Bit I must avow, that being a friend of peace, and entertaining an opinion that it is most desirable that our armaments and our expenditure should not be pushed to any extreme, and. that they should be discontinued if possible, I deeply re gret the course which the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Dis raeli). has pursued. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle man boasts that he is the leader of the largest party in this house, and I have waited to see if any member of that large party would rise to sustain the position that he took, but no one has done so. The right hon. gentleman has lately' occupied a high position in the councils of his Sovereign. He knows the delicacy of the question that he has agitated. lam bound to believe, that in the course he has taken a spirit of peace is his object, but I think that he runs great risk of defeatinc , that object. I should not, however, have risen if he had advertedat great length, and—with pain I must add—with great bitterness, to words which he says have fallen from me. The right hon. gentleman said it was impertinent to suppose that I could be guilty of an inadvertence, that I speak advisedly, and after much preparation. The right hon. gentleman is a great master of words. (A laugh.) I should also say that he speaks with much previous thought ; and certainly I should also say not without some preparation. (A laugh.) And what were the real objects which he announced at the commencement of his speech, and what where those , which appeared to be his objects at the close? I was astonished at the approaches he began at so great a distance to compass so small an ob ject. I was amazed to see histatillery dragged up so high a hill for so trifling a purpose, and to hear i him begin with Poictiers and Agincourt, and end with the hust ings at Carlisle and the Cloth-hall at Halifax. (A laugh.) I may be permitted to remind the right hon. gentleman that even very cautious and able speakers are sometimes guilty of great inadvertence. This present Parliament will remember when a Minister of the Crown and the leader of the House of Commons, had, upon a so lemn occasion, the duty imposed upon him of making a funeral oration on the memory of the Duke of Wellington. I can conceive no greater occasion on which the ablest speaker might have premeditated. What was the case? Our allies had seized the opportunity of sending from every Court of Furope a representative on that solemn oc casion to mark their respect for the memory of that de parted hero. The Minister of the Crown and a leader in this house pronounced the funeral oration to the memory of the departed duke ; and, if I do not much mistake, in that speech the representatives of our allies being here as ' sembled, they were designated as " our scandalous and dis comfited allies" in the contest that had taken place, and this expression, so used, could not, I think, have been al together unpremeditated. I think there was another pas sage in that speech, that was a branch plucked from the funeral wreath of a French general, with which the right hon. gentleman sought to decorate the urn of our illus trious commander. The right hon. gentleman, who, I should say, was an " accustomed" speaker, should bear this in mind, when he says thst public speakers never make a slip of the tongue. He should recol lect the occasion and the speech to which I have referred, and exercise some charity to those who at a con tested election may have used an unguarded expression. But am I prepared to admit that the right hon. gentleman has correctly stated what I said ? He says the press is his escocheon. I must say that the leaders in the Morning Herald are also his supporters—(a laugh)—and that his Standard-bearer is to be found in the evening press. (Con tinued laughter.) But I deny the words imputed to me on the occasion to which he refers. The right hon. gentleman has asked much about the speech of my right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control, but he has not asked me what were the words used by me on the -occasion to which I have referred, and he has inadvertently ascribed to me words that I did not use. (Hear.) I never called the present Emperor of France a despot and a tyrant ; much less did I call the people of France slaves, or use any opprobrious expressions with regard to them. I was ad dressing a popular assembly. I declared myself friendly to an extension of the suffrage. I deeply regretted the bribery and intimidation which I believe had taken place at the late election. (Hear, hear.) I said I thought we ought to remember hew groat was the liberty we enjoyed here in England—that on the whole I did not think that in any country in the world liberty was more secure than.in this, and that, although I could not support universal suf frage, and doubted whether secret voting would prevent intimidation and bribery—the two great objects which it was intended to secure—yet I was desirous that every man whose station rendered him independent, and not liable to be led away or seduced—being in my opinion a person well qualified to have the suffrage—ought to possess it, I went on to say, " Beware of those who tell you that your liberties are not secure without universal suffrage and the ballot ;" and I illustrated that position by saying, " Close to your shores there is a nation possessing universal suffrage, and possessing the ballot," but, so far from calling that na tion by an opprobrious epithet, or using towards it a con tumelious expression, I said—and I have a distinct recol lectionithat the words I now use are the words I used then —I said, " A nation the most polished, a nation celebrated in arms, in the arts, in literature and in science—the liber ties of that people are prostrated under a single man." These are the words I used on that occasion. (Hear, hear.) Now, the right hon. gentleman has said that the people of this country hate coalitions—l think the people of this country hate misquotations. (Hear, hear.) They love the truth, and they love to hear the truth spoken. (Hear.) But if any language used by me is such as to be unworthy of a British Minister, or such as would be held by this house to be inconsistent with that character, or with a seat in this house, then I am not worthy to sit on these benches. Let the house say so, and I am ready to bow to their deci sion. (Hear, hear.) But I must be allowed to say that, although willing and anxious to maintain the most friendly relations with France, and though desirous that not one word should fall from me to excite their enmity, still, if I am not, either on the hustings or in this nouse, to say that which my heart dictates, and my mind and conscience dic tate, then certainly I am not fit to be a Minister, or to sit in the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) I am still a member of a free community—a community that dares to defend the truth, and loves the truth, and which is still the guardian of this happy country, which, after all, is the last refuge of the liberties of Europe. (Cheers.) Mr. M. GIBSON regretted that the right hon. gentle man who had just spoken had not given the slightest inti mation that an attempt would be made, in accordance with what had fallen from his hon. friend the member for the West Riding, to bring about, in conjunction with France, a reduction of armaments. He always understood that the followers of the late Sir R. Peel, while they had no defi nite policy, were willing at least to carry out that line of policy which they believed Sir R. Peel himself would have carried out had he been alive. Now, in 1841, that states man laid down in the House of Commons the very propo sition which the hon. member for the West Riding had alluded to that evening. (The right hon. gentleman here quoted from a speech of Sir IL Peel in 1841, in which he contended that the time had come when the powerful countries of Europe should reduce their military arma ments, and be prepared to declare that there was no longer any necessity for maintaining such enormous establish ments, and in which he deprecated the practice of one country increasing its military and naval force merely be cause it was done by another.) The same reasons for re ducing the national armaments existed now as then, and the fact still was, that the nations increased or reduced their establishments with reference to each other. (Hear.) Nobody, he believed, denied that systematic endeavours had been made to alarm the public mind in this country, , so as to get a more ready assent to our naval and military preparations—(hear, hear)—and the only fault he found with Government hitherto was, that they did not make use of their high position and authority to put an end to in terested and ignorant clamours, and restore equanimity to the public mind. (Hear.) It was a bottomless pit this in crease of defences and of armaments. Who could tell when they had arrived at the point of secmityand self-defence. Then in an economical point of view, the question was one that affected everybody. The emigration that was going on was becoming a point of great importance to the employers of labour in this country, and to hon. gentlemen opposite as well as to others. Their labourers would leave this country if they refused to develope important branches of industry, and if they did so, wages in the agricultural districts would be materially increased, and the difficulties of competing with foreign grain-growers, said to exist, would be rendered much greater. He would say, therefore, employ their sur plus income over expenditure rather in the repeal of taxes that affected the employment of labour than in the increase of our armaments. It was against the unlimited and inde finite increase of those armaments that he now spoke. It was a common ruse to misrepresent the views of economists on this point, and to say they were for the abolition of all armaments and in favour of non-resistance. But what they conceit it o f contended against was that sort of indefinite arming which mod on the t o in f g relationssmatterwhich eh a tewe political ehne art md s character , ugrtnlianhoestet ehr country institutions. 0 anddni3 te o i ttiunbt France.wieoahn s r o n h g . al (Hear, was going on, one country rivalling another without any t p l r e o na sp a e n ct ol of r. a p rri isr vin ael g i) a h t a a d c i o n n t c ro lu d s u io ce n d . in n to e hi ri s g s h p t ee h eeh o alinpvap . egyrigieenoa i gri encourage en tirelyshouldabgeregeodvewirntehd.tho(Hseewarh,ohcenmoaara.d:eem:litturtenwdetryactshwtehaeus use (Hear.) Fri a r e t eaoar n a c l irri tating language towards Francsem,eannpdinthatoesaedcglooiiiistant eelha: wanted salso that t a o t g g n etting our domestic liberties hpEHreneoaggr wished l p. i c s h ro m suo e s n mutenh t la h wet a ses t nEi t tt h nsg e eo y lnifjsa b ohry e l ea i sd e st v at Et e oe d ai e a r ; heatedforeign scountries on tyranny nhya v a e b t r h o e ad 7 w g oh l u i e s ia n dr r .r) Ho P in wa f y or o e f i a see m feelingore forattention liberty a p t ai home . d to countries,f?pularity to i a t g m ain ig e h t t d b ee e p a ot c i ta rties ; and, though inveigh con fessed he would rather see men advocating he and showing to foreign countries that liberty at home, confidence in our own people to give themve had sufficient they were entitled to—a course that all the rights liberty abroad than all the speech would do more for (Hear, hear.) Ho had observed, however, that could be made. were most ardent on the platformowever, that those who liberty abroad were exceedingly i ' lin declaiming about proposal to give the people liberty timid when there was any it was somewhat disingen at home. He thought about France and other -jeto press these arguments counras arguments against the adoption of the ballot in this country. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman had chosen to insinuate that we had a Conservative Government and a Conservative Opposition; and that those who were called Radicals had merged into a species of Conservatism. He could only say for himself that he never was a party man, entering into combinations to oppose or support any existing Government, and he should decline to express any opinion on the present Ad ministration till he saw their measures of reform. If it was true that four hours of a Cabinet Council were occu pied on the Turkish Empire, all he would say was that he thought they would have been better employed in consi dering the provisions of the Reform Bill. (Hear, hear.) Though he admitted there were reasons for postponement, he could have wished to see a measure of reform submitted to the house during the present session, in order that it might have been considered by the country previous to being brought forward for legislation in the Par liament of 1854. (Hear, hear.) He gave credit to the Government for good intentions with respect to the mea sure of reform, and he was sure they would not bring in any measure on such a subject that would not be of a com prehensive character, calculated to settle that question for at least some fair period of time. (Hear.) And he did hope that the Government, having, as they had heard, so much approved the freedom of the press, would not forget that, though we did enjoy considerable freedom in this country in reference to our newspapers and public press, we fell far short, nevertheless, of entire and absolute free dom. He hoped that the somewhat heated expressions of feeling with reference to the liberty of the press might be taken as indications on the part of the Government that they would emancipate the press in this country, untax it, and give the people the advantage of a full, free, and cheap dissemination of knowledge. (Hear.) He was sanguine that the Government would adopt that as part of their policy, because they had expressed themselves favourable to the cause of education, and he knew no agency so fa vourable to education as a cheap press, diffusin g c , through all classes of the community cheap information. In conclu sion, he would observe, that though the right hon. gentle man (Mr. Disraeli) might say they had a Conservative Go vernment and a Conservative Opposition, he would find the Liberal party and the liberal feeling of the country truly represented, and that the Liberal members of that house would be true to their principles, though they would not embark in any needless or vexatious proceedings. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BAILLIE said thattheihouse was now met for the purpose of voting away the public money, and a fair oppor tunity consequently arose of obtaining information as to the opinions of the Cabinet on many most important ques tions. After alluding to the sentiments expressed by dif ferent members of the Government on the subject of Par liamentary Reform and the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill, he said that he believed that it would require more than all the high character of the associates of the late Sir Robert Peel to convince the people of this country that the coalition which they had now formed had not been effected at the sacrifice of those principles which Sir Robert Peel uni formly advocated. Lord D. STUART said that he felt indebted to the right hon. gentlemen who had occasioned this debate, inasmuch as it called forth from both sides of the house expressions of the most earnest desire to continue on good terms with the Government and nation of France. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the comments made by the public press on what took place in neighbouring countries, he believed that the press would abdicate its high functions if it were not to adopt such a course, and he had always thought that the censures directed against it by the noble lord the Secretary , for Foreign Affairs and others were uncalled for. He con curred in the opinion expressed by the noble lord the Sec retary for Foreign Affairs, that, although the French people might have surrendered their liberties for a time, yet that, enlightened as they were, they would not long suffer the m . selves to be deprived of their institutions, without the full enjoyment of which he believed no nation could long con tinue to be happy and prosperous. Mr. HUME thought that the house was about to pro ceed in voting the estimates upon a rule contrary to com mon sense. The were about to vote six or seven millions fur navy expenses, and he contended that the house ought first to know by what means that sum was to be paid. He recollected" that when the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckingham proposed to go into committee on the tea duties the present Chancellor of the Exchequer told him that he could not reduce one single farthing of taxation until they knew whether they had the means of supporting that reduction of taxation. Now the income tax would expire in April next, and it was desirable to know before voting the estimates what the Government meant to do with reference to the renewal or discontinu ance of that tax. There was now a surplus of 2,500,000/. ; but if the income tax were allowed to expire, there would be a deficiency of upwards of 3,000,0001. Under these circumstances, he wished to know why the house should not act upon the principle which the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had himself laid down, no longer ago than last December, when the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) was propos ing to go into committee upon the tea duties. Mr. Glad stone then said : " I wish to call the attention of the house to a subject which appears to be of the utmost importance, of constitu tional importance. We are going to make provision for the financial year that commences on the sth of April, 1853. Now, when we are considering the provision for that year, the first thing which necessarily strikes the mind of every man is, that on the sth of April the income tax, from which we derive more than one-tenth of our gross revenue, will have ceased, legally to exist ; and I put it strongly to the house and to the Government, that the first duty of this house in reference to the provision for that year must necessarily be to consider what course we are to purse with regard to the income tax." Now what was good for the goose was also good for the gander ; and what the right hon. gentleman the Chancel lor of the Exchequer) insisted at that time ought to be done by the late Government, he was now bound to do himself. (Hear.) But the right hon. gentleman added : Even were there no other question as to the income tax than that of its continuance, I should say that the duty of the house, in the discharge of its great functions, tho providing the ways and means for the public service, is to proceed to consider the question of the continuance of the income tax, before it deals with any minor question whatever." The noble lord the Foreign Secretary also took the same view, for he said— " I think that there is great force in what the right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) said as to the necessity of taking both the income tam and the house tax, before we are asked to concur in any resolution with respect to the relief of taxes." Nor was this all ' for the right hon. baron e t th e P res id en t of the Board of Control (Sir Charles Wood) said •it was essential for the safety of the public credit that this course should bo taken. Thus three great authorities wore then in favour of the course which he (Mr. Hume) recommended. It vas a question of the utmost importance to the country how the income tax was to be levied. They ought to have some information upon this subject, but most certainly the house ought not to be called upon to vote any money until they were informed whether it was intended to continue the income tax or not. The Government themselves had, when on the other side of the house, stated their opinion that they saw no possibility of altering the income tax, yet now they refused to say anything more about it than that it would be brought on. after Easter—that was not until after the tax had expired. If no answer was given to his question, he should take the sense of the house upon it. He begged to move that the debate be adjourned. Lord PALMERSTON hoped the hon. gentleman would not press his motion to a division. His right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer hat]. already stated that the time must shortly come when he must make his finan cial statement, and then it would be his duty to state what were the intentions of the Government with respect to the income tax. Mr. HUME was perfectly aware of the anomalous situa tion in which the Government was placed, b u t the house had been told by the Government that th e income tam; to be renewed, and that it cou ld no t b e altered. He thought, therefore, he was justified in moving that the debate be adjourned. The SPEAKER said the hon. member could not move the adjournment of the debat e ; h e must move that the Committee of Supply be postponed. Mr. HUME said he objected to going into committee now, and would therefore move that it be postponed for a week. The house divided ' For the original motion (that the Speaker leave the chair) 16 4 Against it —136 Majority The house then went into COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that in laying on the table of the house the estimates for the ensuing year, he was happy to say that he was able to ask the committee to as sent to a vote which did not propose any increase either in the force of seamen or of iaarines. That vote he now pro posed exactly upon the ground on which the supplemental vote was proposed to the house in November last. T ho principles then stated by her Majesty' s l a t e advisers in proposing that estimate were the precise grounds upon which he recommended to the house, f or th e ensuing Iv - ar on the maintenance of the exact force the n proposed. It e wa; not recommended by him to the house upon any ground approaching to that of a hostile or distrustful character towards any foreign power whatever. He pressed the vote upon grounds which were not new to the Parliament of this country, but which had been sustained by the reports of two committees to which the question of the estimates had been referred. If the house would allow him he would refer, first of all, to the report of the finance com mittee appointed in the year 1828, and subsequently to the report of the committee over which his noble friend the member for Totnes (Lord Seymour.) presided in th e year 1848. The rep or t o f the finance committee of 1828 used words to this effect :—That it was their opinion that the establishments o f this country with reference t o the unusual should be r egu l a t ed, not circumstances of the late war, or the probability of being agam . called upon t o ma k e a similar exer ti on, b ut rather with reference to the policy I of maintaining our defences, and relying upon our navy for protection aga i ns t foreign invasion and for the security of our commerce. The report i of th e corn naittee of 1848 a dh ere d to that cy, and we had acted upon it up t o th e present time.r* This policy, they , stated, would be admitted to be most congenial to the ha bits and feelings of our countrymen, who h n a a d v f al or a length of time been accustomed to look upon the right arm of our strength , power as national independence. ow, that the great support of our committees of that house, made at a w long t the interval opinion o of o f time,twe asserted in the strongest terms by the finance committee of 1828, and subsequently adopted by the committee over which his noble friend had presided. It had been well ascertained with respect to the navy, and still more with respect to the other branch of our defences, that the num ber of men ruled the amount of the money voted on all the other branches of these estimates ; and assuming that the circumstances of the present moment were the same as those which induced her Majesty's late advisers in Novem ber to propose an increase of 5,000 seamen and 1,500 ma rines to the force voted in the earlier part of last year— assuming theie circumstances to be the same, he thought, also, he was right in assuming that this house, retaining its opinion that they were right when they voted the increase in November, would not now be prepared to reverse that decision. (Hear, hear.) Taking that assumption, there fore, as the fact, and he believed it was not adverse to the opinion expressed by the house on former occasions, he (Sir J. Graham) would next revert to the several items which went to form the estimate that he should proceed to lay be fore them. The increase of the whole estimate, as compared with the estimate of the last year, the supplimentaiy esti mate taken in November inclusive, amounted to 459,0001., the increase being 299,0001. That sum waslmade up of the following items—viz , 191,0001. increase in the vote for the pay of the seamen and marines ; 70,000/. increaso on the vote for victuals ; and 140,0001. increase on the vote for naval stores of every description. And at this point he would do justice to his right lion. friend the member d • .• is for Portsmouth, who proceeded hie/ (Elir Graha? ) er i the office which he then held. His right Non. frient,:. tb' IT he had been members of the committee in 134:8, and had generally concurred in opinion on the subjc . et in st tion, but he (Sir J. Graham) was not aware until e to the Admiralty how much had been effec:oa „ 4 ,7,1 1 his right hon. friena in carrying into practical opell‘l'„,00 the recommendations of that committee. (Hear.) house was then ab ou t t o vote for the payment and vier , ling of 45,500 seamen and marines.. In 1847-8, when Sir J. Graham's) right hon. friend was in office—or rat her the year preceding—the sum voted for the navy estimat including the Post-office packet service, was 5, 06 ° ,00 C' c la the number of seamen an d mar ines voted on that occasl. e being 41, ,F 500. The sum then voted was, exclusiv e of packet service, 950,0001. B u t yet the present vote was . 45,500 men, or 4,000 more than that vote, and th e saving e to the country on the year would nearly anloT eh . e . a o tl. million. His right hon. friend had stated, an d s" to truly, on a former occasion, that he had endeav oured do as much as he could, in conformity with the recomnen_. dations of the committee, but that he had received Ce",.. little credit for his efforts. He (Sir J. Graham) felt haPll. on the present occasion to bear testimony to the efficacYo°.o, those efforts. He was bound, also, in justice to his T the immediate predecessor in office, to state that Ile folinuder, or naval department in all its branches in admirable the storesfull, the requisite arrangements made, Andkeerbe thing in a state of completeness or activity. Her as- n d. house, therefore, not to vote any additional me.i No the number taken in the supplementary vote of last vote vember, but simply to continue the number in a a 41 ., e for the year. It was due to his predecessors to state alL,e, facts reflecting credit on their administration o f the 4.:us" which had come to his knowledge. The greate r por4onil the savings that had been made was effected on the ' e de . departments of the navy, leaving thus the military l ,sir partment unimpaired' in point of efficiency. Ile 1 01 J. Graham) had thought it possible to effect even .0w greater reductions in that department, and even n O , he did not at all despair on that point. But the h.,°,eca would bear in mind that the force of the navy had " increased 6,500 men without any additional exp ense, . 5,, e d. that a great economical arrangement will have been effeG.,,,,,aa The increase in the pay of the men, namely , 193,00 a, "As, entirely on the number of additional men voted. regarded the increase of 70,0001. on the vote for victual l 7 and provisioning the navy, he had to state , in exp lanati 0 .. that almost every article which entered into th e consuni,l7lo tion of the sailor had risen, as compared with t he last tAo. 0;b years, say 1851-52, fully 10 per cent, at the least , in the .?„., of each article. The only other vote before him was -1- ..„ 10, in the cost of building, repairs of ships and stearn.eroi, and for the stores and other principal articles providea, ere , the naval dockyards of the country. In that vote ttr_ ro , was, as he had stated, an increase of 140,000:. • but !ll s i t, was also an increase on the price of all the articles which included of a proportionate character, which went satis ba d torily to account for it. For example, English oak risen in price 3 per cent., hemp had risen 9i p e r coat, t, per 24 per cent., iron 12 per cent., chain cables 17 per cen_,f copper and brass articles 20 per cent., and pig iron 60 FF-0 cent. But there was also one other cause for the incres:be in the amount of this vote, which he should state to house. In the supplemental estimate of the last Govern, ment there was a vote of 100,0001. for steam m aehine i Without entering into any undue rivalry with forett powers on the point, it was absolutely maintenance, he would not say of the supremacy, hut o , l ite ", necessary for,lt7 o position of this country, that those great changes an e d ,_: e t prove - meats in steam navigation which were daily!, place should not be neglected. In France, in Russla , ; ol , in America, great progress was making in the apPllc of steam to navigation and in the perfection of stes-20.0.-_ chinery for that purpose ; and it was r equisite, there that there should be provision for changing and repai-7 0 as well as replacing steam machinery in the na v y , at v,if least expense. A provision had been made, as he had alre i ; _ Lb stated, for this purpose, in the suppleme n t ar y vote of t 7, - , year, but it had been found necessary by her Iria.leUl, Government to increase the amount of 1-4°,'o;g, by a sum of 100,0001. The whole increase then, in Sr •o¢ amounted, as he had said, to 400,000/. ; the redu°''ibe amounted to about 60,0001. Of this the reduction t at its scientific b ranc h m i g ht b e es timated at 15,0001. ; th ° the half-pay ( nava l), 24,000/. ,• that in the military ljnel, pay, 20,000/. ; and that in the civil department 9, With respect to the scientific branch, the cost of the ;,`',l drographer's department in respect to naval survey's ; 0 0 been increasing for years ; but as there was a large ar" - of of these surveys at present unpublished, in c msequen e t e t be the care and attention of the able officer at the head °,". e nt department, and his anxiety to revise every one of i _" b t ' personally, he (Sir J. Graham) therefore had tholig,i l ! e tS would be perfectly consistent with nautical ofi e li irl that the surveying department of the present year s.°° roe be restricted until that arrear was reduced. In the saw branch—the hydrographic—was now placed the 1 , -.,r a be department ; the Admiralty deeming that it won , tro t more effectually administered if placed under the el t it of the hydrographer. He (Sir J. Graham) thoug . '4 of right, however, to ask the vote for six months blo t° for twelve, in order that there might be an opportilla for making the necessary ar ran g em ents. If he rema ine d . if office he would give the subject his best attention , 0 0 ,1,1 he did not he was still satisfied that his successors ohere find its adoption of advantage to the public service•„ - `, ia was also a small saving arising out of an altera l ' ° Ser i another department connected with this branch of the the e vice—namely, in the adjustment of compasses o°,ol saving would accrue from a fresh arrangement with T e Nbs to the school in Portsmouth Dockyard, established fo r o f education of naval apprentices in the.higher branebrost nautical science. It had been found that this schocutio the country 1,2001. a-year, while only four apPre n e u attended it ; this he considered too great a cost fortle small number. There was a highly educated geetgisb. an excellent mathematician, at the head of this est°obool, ment, and as it was proposed to supp r e ss the oa_volit, it had been deemed right to enter into an ar rane ' ge by which his services would be made available; was, therefore, to take the charge in chief of all testeruuuse yard schools • and as it was decided that a still gr s de ot. should be made' of the Greenwich school than was In _ n oes present, namely, to supply schoolmasters for t,ii. e u tad be service, it was intended that this gentleman sn mas terS' called upon to decide on the qualifications of t h gl e educa • Further it was doubted whether the eeturn s° as mid' tion received by the young gentl. yefrii° s e ed l • vesti• ehipmen on board of men-of-war were ufficrently gated ; and it was therefore that they laid hereafter before this • should be gentlemen, and that he sa he o ur e have the power of supervision over the eporto f JI c o te r T i n ty gs , h of ow th o e ve v r ari , th o e us h s o c us hoo e l oi m i a g e h te t rs. rest Tirl a s e ; ü ß r:d ax, in disposed to effect any-saving in the branch in que s , a tiel l consistent with th e p romo ti on an d progress of nun -Aire' both on shipboard an d i n th e d oc k yar d s un der their. - t he tion. The other savings arose from the diminution „I, military pensions, caused by d ea th, without any ens' pointments. It was the same with the civil _ le; Though the r e d uc ti ons th a t were ma d e , and nini‘ ix '. l o '; to superann ua ti on , th e c h arge upon th e whole fund °OO be found to be in a state of progressive di m inution . e ns on (Sir J. Graham) k new no t if an y f ur ther explan sti St t ° his part were necessary. Perhaps, however, he, oll .Che state that no new works were contemplated, wit ll . ,,torifc ception of one vote for the construction of steam - -utoom; at Keyham. (as the right hon. gentleman was unders,;et' He had deemed it to be his duty to institute the stl' or en' inquiries into this subject, and he had according l Yo s %. moned a committee, composed of some of the Inowirosi perienced office rs i n the steam-packet service, to oi l were adjoined the surveyor of the navy a 'a l° 1° n ahe t el intendent of the dockyard at Plymouth an t„‘ put to them the question how 70,0001. could be best most advantageously expended in rendering th they "sci works of that natureavailable. It apared. thatdis,o only one great naval power which was employed ePe bli Pl t 5 14 a larg e sum of money upon an increase of these e s o e meats —namely, the United States of America or the in his hand the report of the Secretary of the N • s".. h ., 10 ° 1 United States in 1852-53, allthe propositions in w ;:abe f . ( 4 of a marked character. The first related to the 13 no st naval cadets to be admitted each year. By a provision tne committee of the House of Conaln °ll.- e h commended that only 100 should be admitted ea the 11 i and his right hon. friend the member for Portsn a ool,.,l not only rigidly complied with this recomraendaiijrnilThOnol, had even red uce d th e num b er f rom 100 t o 75. ,fi States admitted only 62, the difference being 1 - 0 * „ i on e e" recommendation in that report was equally r e li a d By a vote of Congress corporal punishment a l p , abolished in the United States navy • but the svi th., ‘ „,s se pline of the service was found to be s o relaxed , an to • • A i 0 arising from that relaxation was fount` great, that the opinion of the sailors themselves l'Aeris in unanimous for the restoration of that form of Pn ° , s ge s r e' This recommendation was one of the strongest In the repo r t. H ear. ) The next recommen dation fo,G tollhe port was in favour of the establishment of stean",: g , 0.0 4 [The right hon. baronet read the passage, which h 'i; eri that effect that this mode of supplying steam in d„ e. 4 „,0 1 1 more economical ; that it ensured better wen' re 01;rert it rendered the adoption of improvements n i , ° as well as more certain.] He (Sir J. GrahainP„, o felt bound to state that he differed in of from this conclusion ; for while he had been al w 's s sf" i fth nion that such establishments were absolutely D e la es s i i ito effecting •I' alterations and repairs, he had alsol`e was(100 large new works should be done by contract• ejoeth satisfied that the factories in existence at Ports . nli t 0 3 , Plymouth were requisite for reparations that inltiee quired in steam machinery, but with regara: 4o o tr A' works of an extensive character, he was of ° p ly o°n of Should. always be done as much as possibie by e° 0 o f 'Oa present the most expensive part of the macbin, u :..ard a .,,ov a ; ships—the boilers—were made in the Queen ; 0 .01.1'" 0 - s e (); had given directions for obtaining the c ost °- Oreef thf facture, debiting each with a fair share of tbe of oo the yard, the officers, and plant, and in the present year he should be able to ascertain the ‘L ~„,, A .4 , pre cost between these and those made under con t : B - r.,:; ; ; t eq Secretary of the Treasury of the United S tec of s i an s/1 . posed an increase for this year in the num s r _ 4o -oe , but not so large an increase in the number a, ' t i le proposed to make here. Then with respect to doeiT tion for increased cost of our dockyards. -if itte eo v'oo it would be recollected, were large and n",.„ illef A 0 o ', without any undue jealousy there might b i e d, 7o,l6 l o l 'oer; the expense. The area of the five princiP s ' o f S h ; ll * comparatively small. The superficial area in . e lre pcsj Pon" ther esgu - Chatham, Portsmouth, Plymouth, and o li g; than the area of Cherbourg. There was the i ° br i o which he must avert to—it had relation ; 00 ,1 if i l ie rs o , vote for the packet service. It was_ pa il' 7 .1,4 ies _ e e• this service under notice at the time the t jo io i e .a a were proposed. There were generally grtco aricitir,,,3, tertained. at any increase to the naval 0 6 17 1„,:i bee a re,o l ; o o tainly felt surprised at the large sum whien,,, g to ?„, r es, ol ., in the previous estimates, that sum amoin;_ur,ot gas Government, however, had. thought it rigu.,` ;ee t is to bring forward that estimate until the slit"J itte earr o , gone carefulinvestigation. There was a comet beat cp";,. to investigate the expenditure of partil erre d. . ner ibl v • that committee the question had been re ter-G, e jr P - ef mittee was presided over by the Postures , to , • slated by the hon. member for Hertford, anu cie i 9-:; i 0 ley, an experienced gentleman, who waa, u ' u , c heelli s hn i t ie) diato direction of the Chancellor of the .r-1 „tab o pt er whole question of the Post-office and Pa ck it was ie .(ll l , o l , was under the view of that committee ; vote intention of Government to bring forward wropo,re°,,er.;o tion until the re h •ttee wa s I ) his port of t e commi core the house would recollect there was alma e il ier co'rei r e ' der fact before it—that of the report of " f r eers. fr ir , composed of two naval and two artilleil° fin ed vote for the packet service had been de?."l of c 4 ,10" co ' the double supposition that further fee be p t be P ee * t for 0 1/1 cation with our remote colonies oughtold r the aid of steam, and this was one gr°_ wr oth: r ee i i. e .o posed large increase. But there Iv i a e l i c to of at the which he was sorry to say was n otes ~ e ven oe fs .thee g It was believed that these pa cke_ _., os e_. ~1 01 1 would. be available for belligere nt nl`bat °„ r el Pey 'on 6 0 question had been decided by o °L' n dual e e to the co 0 , 00 naval officers, who had come were 13 tv; :ir 0 expectations were fallacious. to ' sta te i f 70 packets, but only 16 could be C" ,A . n g the care fre ee e at a considerable expense. This meat veil t hat g r o teo case, it became the duty of Gr° ve tape es. 01 :4 ;Pi reconsider the whole of the circuras tre to. 14 would not ;low alai fia the VQ