The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-09 00:00:00

~a~~_~_ _V Ft 11.1 A 31 E X 17 . HOUSE OF LORDS. EARL GREY'S SPEECH. Continued from our Sixth column, First Page. intelligent, the powerful, the opulent, the atithotititos, and of all the most important in society.sao(t.osid and reit er steal cheers )_Why, then, ears i% be necessary foe me to ge into argument to proVe Ittat a measure cannot Oe revolutionary which is supported in the way I raw state who ere tie persons who support it? t say they are the moat intelligent and the most important art of the community, possessing the greatest measure of wealth, and the most vital interests in the property of this . - ounty of which they possess so large a share (Cheer-) and can it be believed in the 19th century with the improvements of knowledge, with aft the intelli gence which that class of perseea possess, that they wanld cones forward and prefers' to your Lordships —nay, entreat that you would adopt as a measure of salvation to they and to their posterity, a system of Reform which was to destroy their tights of property—a Meastre iii interfere not only with the security of their posses sions, bet to interfere with those institetions of the country, which it was their deseae not to pull down, hut to improve, and in torch a marine: as to seord them and theirs the best and mos: ample protection. My Lords, I therefore proceed to say, that this Bill is founded, like the last, on the three great principles which I have just named ; and heviug on a former occasion twice addressed your Lordships, at very great length, in support of the views which induced me to propose a measure founded upon those greet principles, I will abstain at the present time from going into those general arguments which I could only repeat without adding to your information, and which would consequently fte a useless waste of your Lordships' thile. I will therefore confine myself to a statethent of those circumstances on which in respect ) to those principles and the measures founded upon them, the present Bill dif fers from the one last presented to your Lordships' notice ; and first with respect to the principle of disfranchisement. It is proposed by the present Bill to di franchise, as it was by the las-, a certain number of bo roughs which have fallen into decay, which are considered, I think justly considered, as an abuse in the system of re presentation, and to substitute for them those towns which have risen to much wealth and importance. H-ar. hear.) The manser in which that number of boroughs has beets s-leeted, I will now state. It was proposed by the former Bill that a certain line should he drawn, by which all places having in population under 2,000, and in which it was thought, he believed justly thought that a sufficient constituency could not be found, that alt such boroughs should be abolished. The advantage of that mode was this ; we drew a distinct line by which its application was limited, and in that degree we were pre cluded from the charge of partiality. But it was objected that we were proceeding upon a principle (which principle was population) that was very un`jUst. I explained at that time, that that might not be the true representation of that principle, but that though population had been taken as a criterion, it was but a criterion ; but it was the best which occurred to me, and those members of his Majesty's Government with whom I acted, by which the relative importance of those places could be ascertained. I do not know, my Lords, that any great inconvenience would arise, if we had adhered to that criterion, but when 1, and those who acted with me, with a sincere anti anxious desire to consider lisp issionately any proposition which emulated from any other quarter, with a view, if possible, and to take a bet ter criterion, if it coold be ascertained, came to coasider the subject, we certainly thought we could take a better criterion by a mixed estimate of the number of houses according to the census of ISM (which was the best proofof population) and the amount of assessed taxes. That criterion is founded according to the hest pi meipies of calculation, and has been approved of by those maim :Aire; who are best informed upon such subjects, and we therefore think it is the best mode of ascertaining the relative importance of the boroughs. Having adopted that plan, we have adhered to the dis franchisement of a certain number of boroughs.—(Hear.) I am aware by looking into this new mode of calcula tion, we do not gain that certain distinct line which was attained under the former bill; but I think it will be found when your Lordships' come to examine the mea sore, and I trust your Lordships' will go i n t o the examination of it in Committee, with the intention of canvassing it minutely and strictly. I think and say it will be found, that admitting the prin cip'e that decayed boroughs must be disfranchised, it would not be possible to reduce the number proposed in the ' Bill, to be so dealt with, although pmsibly according to this new mode of calculation res.- eons might be given for extending it. The beet friends, however, of the Bill have concurred with me in thinking it inexpedient to propose to Parliament to extend disfranchisement further than it was ex tended in the last Bill. In adopting, therefore, the cre terion given by the number of houses, and the amount of assessed taxes conjoined, we trust we have obviated the objection raised to the former mode of estimating the value of bortughs. I trust that this new criterion will receive the approbation of the House, and more particularly . of that portion of it which objected to that which was adopted in the former Bill. I do not think it necessary to say more en tus part of the subject. I have already said that it is admitted that in any pun of Refocus, there must he some measure of disfranchisement. The ques tion here will be, whether the measure we have adopted is too much or too little. I think it will be found, when your Lordships go into Committee, that it is not too much, but that is at any rate a question to be discussed there, so that I iru,t your Lordship n ill ado, t the Melon which it is this night my duty to make. My Lo, tits, the next alteration made relates to schedule B. When this question was before under the consideration of the House, I said that I wits aware schedule B was the week part of the Bill, and as I am still aware objections may be made to it, it • has been our desire to redure as much as possible the amount of those objections. In taking schedule B according to the criterion which has been applied to schedule A, we have, instead of forty-one boroughs in schedule B we have only SO, having taken out of it 11 of the most considerable towns formerly in it, altogether restoring to them their original right to return two Members. Included in these eleven towns, many of them, by the way, very important, are, it should be observed, several et unty towns, tbepartial disfranchisement of which before created so much or'jection. I know it may be said that the Bil. is full of anomalies. I know it will be said that the boroughs restored front schedule B to their original right of re turning two Members each, are man) of them inferior in importance, population, and wealth, to some of those boroughs to which the franchise has now been ex tended. This and other similar anomalies, I admit, will be charged on the measure ; but these anoma lies, my Lords, are inseparable from any mode of proceed ing which has for it, princip'e that of retaining as much as possible of whal now exists. And, my Lords, the only mode of obviati ng . this objection, w bleb, by the Tye, is one which comes unfortunately from tho-e who contend that we have done too much— the duly mode of obviating it is by doing still more.— ( Hear, hear.) It can only be effectually removed and made perfect in theory, according to those who attend only to theory and principle, and net to prac • tioe, by having an entire new distribution of the elective franchise, for which purpose it would be necessary to di vide the whole country into electoral districts. This, my Lents, we have not chosen to do ; we would avoid so ex tensive a change, and preferred that the measure should be subject to the charge of containing anomalies for the purpose of retaining as much as possible of what now exists. My Lords, such is the ex tent of the change that has been effected in hat part of the bill which carries into effect the principle of disfranchisement. I will now proceed to enfranchisement. My Lords, if titers be one part of the subject more than an other on which I feel confident I am not exposed to any serious objection, it is this, that to the great commercial manufacturing towns which have risen during the last century into importance, and have attained, many of them, a population and a wealth equal to many capitals in Europe, it 14 ex r edient and necessary that the right or suffrage should be extended. My Lords, the towns that are thus to be raised to the right of representa tion are contained in schedules C and D, and here also there are considerable alterations in the provisions of the Bill. To the twelve new Members which it has been agreed to add , to these schedules, it has objected that that part of the Bill was most highly objectionable as increasing its democratic tendency.—(Hear, hear, hear.) My Lords, I could wish as far as 1 can, to state any objections that are made, and to meet and discuss them candidly, both here and in Committee.--( Hear, bear.) It has been said then, my Lords, that this aiditionwill increase the democratic tendencyof the measure. lk , Amitt'ing in the Atilt whirls- Ido not, that liseenlacirought dre, 'of them, to be consid ere d as t otally ig 3)17 IO 7.11. , separated from ire landed interest,—a n d h ere ! must allude to elude to this as an unfCrtinste Reparation bet`!: en the commercial, me' tele:during, and agricultural SUN-OFFICE, NINE O'CLOCK. interests of this ceisetry, in which the objection on - j ;m • etre, frie 't:ti one, my Lords, is . more convinated am refti's - ried, then the person now addresitt'eg you, f elfC inseparable connection of eLli with the mutual advantage and prosperity all these interests ;t ik ing this to het 'the effect, I would answer in the first otase'!, that the addition of twelve members ttio`t • created to their towns is however counter_ balanced by the eleven members taken out dt beitedule B, which keep one member eac:'4 as compared with the former which will be con nected Chietty g tfic landed and agricultural interests. [?tit, My Lords, I would sly that the Mem here coming from those towns will be exclusively manufacturing or comenertiel. That the Members connected with these "eevni will he charged with the care of their ineereels, is indisput tale ; het neighbourig proprie tors es-ill, undouteltedly, as at present they have the chief influence. It would be seen, my Lords, if the subject were investigated, in such places th It the persons connected with the landed interests, teeny of thein connec ted with your Lordships by the nearest relations, hive sate, and do sit, as their representatives of such places is V'arlia tnent. rt is not to he presumed that the lrepreeentation of these places, must necesetrily be of a democratic nature. But it wilt I.e, as it now is, that after all, those connected with the great interests of the country. will beet the lead in the representation, and no shame need take place, nor any danger he apprehended by this te, hanee in the C nstitution of Pediment, which, as I have before stated, is A e.ange founded on an ci nt precedent and the established principles of the Constitution. And here! must caution you against one mis take; it is generally presumed that the returns of electibtis with rt:all times, be the former, as they use in times of poyular agitaion. We are not to peva, my Lords of what willbe the effect of returns hereater,by the effect now produced when the question of raillimentary Reform has been so much agitated This nnestion disposed of, my real and firm convic tion is that thins will settle into their former souece, and that property, rank, station, and good conduct will resume their influence, (Hear,) but if my Lords, rank, station, and property are not, as they taught be, connected with good conduct, Why ought they to be connected with that influence, which legitimately belongs to them, and ethieh in nayopinion to the advantages of the coun try, they ought to possess ? Passing that oowever it Is not necessary, it is not fair to suppose that this representation will his one of umnisted demo cratic tendency, that their rcpreeentations will be PO far connected with manufacturing and commercial interests, as will give them security of atten tion to them, is not to be doubted. And, my Lords, When you consider what have been the gpowth and progress of this interest, the growing and increasing prosperity of these towns, will it be said that 64 members the number of schedule,. C and I) are tco much to repre sent that important interest, which, in connexion with other interests of the country, are inseperable frotn its wealth and power. On the general principle of enfranchisement I have now, now, my Lerds, perhaps said enough ; and on the particular alterations that have taken place, I have dSvelt perhaps sufficiently at length, as an opportunity will be given for that purposeupon going into Committee. when this subject will be beter considered, and provided for, I trust, in a way most consistent with the general sa tisfaction and the promotion of the welfare of the nation, My Lords, the next great principle to which I wi , l advert, and which constitutes the true and legitimate character of this Reform 13ill, is the extension of the right of voting, my Lords, on the general principle on which that proceeds, I feel myself called upon to say a few words. I ought to state to your Lordships that I am confining myself chiefly at pre seat to what has been done in the way of alteration The county representation is not altered, and I may, perhaps, presently say something on it. But in my present review of the subject, as much as possible to save your Lordships time and spare myself unnectssary fatigue, I abstain altogether from going into those principles of the measure which were before discuseed, or upon those particular provisions of the Bill which remain unaltered. But in respect to the 101. franchise, it was stated before by a Noble E trl, whom I sire opposite, on presenfing the Oxford petition, tint among the petition, (Loud cries of hear, hear,) which, by the bye, did by imp ication, if not by direct admission, certainly gave a s unction to the principle of Reform ; one complaint was, that there was a new right of voting introduced unknown to the Constitution. and sweeping away .all former rights. The objection was fonnd.tl first of all in the idea that the right of voting prop , se I was unknown to the Con stitution ; next, that it was introduced et the expense of existing rights ; and a third ground of objection was its uniformity. This embrace! two asser tions equally unfounded in truth. In the first pace, that the prinple was unknown to the Constitution; secondly, that it inierfered with, and tended to the destruotion of other rights. As to the latter objection, it ancts, so far as I know, no other rights. The county right of voting in freeholders, remains unaltered. The right of freemen to vote, which was secured by the last 13 11 to the present possessors dining the existence of their natural lives, is extended t o their descendants, and to those who could obtain their right by servitude for ever. (Hear.) These rights, therefore, instead of being swept away are preeerved,but, my Lords, that the principle is unknown to the Constitu tion, I directly and featle,sly deny. I maintain not only that it is not a principle unknown to the Constitution, but that it is the ancient principle recog nized by the Constitution of Parliament-try represntation. My Lords, I am almost ashamed to trouble your Lordships on this point, which was so well brought forward on tl:e last occasion by my Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack ; but as the assertion has been repeated, I must return to it. That Noble Lord has referred to the authority of Mr. Sergeant Dunstable, who stated that if a new writ was to be issued,—and he called upon any lawyer to con tradict him in that statement if he he could,—that where a writ was issued to those great towns to which it is proposed by the present Bill to give the right of representation, ipso facto, the householder of the borough would be the person who would return the writ. Now, my Lords, this right of voting of the householders is the ancient English right, and what in fact, my Lords, does this Bill do ? Why, it introduces this right of voting, but with great limitations. It limits it to the inhabitant householders within the borough, provided they can show that they have been occupiers, for a certain time previous to the election, of tenements of the actual value of ten pounds. This, my Lords, so far from being the intro duction of a new right, is a limitation of an ancient one, and one that can be safely adopted by your Lordships. This right of voting, my Lords, is nothing more than the scot and lot right of voting, affixing to it however limitations of the annual value of 10/. and also that the rent and taxes should be paid up to a c- rtain time previous to the right being given. But, my Lords, however, it is stated that there are general objections to this which I shall endeavour to combat, but I with my Lords in the mean time to advert to the altterations which have been made in thus, from the last Bill the right of voting is the same as the former Bill. By the former Bill it was intended the tight of voting should delong to the 10/. householders, but there was a different mode of ascertaining the right. There are four modes ascertaining this right either by being rated at ten pounds, paying taxes to amount of ten pounds, or rent to the same amount, or by vote by ballot. The reasons, my Lords, for adopting the alterations were, that it was thought that it would simplify the mode of ascertaining the value, and would guard more effectually against the practising of deceit.—(hear.) Now, my Lords, it has been said that there would be very greet difficulty in ascertaining the value. That, my Lords, I do not think will be so. Nothing more is contemplated by this Bill than what takes place at all county elections. The right there depends upon per sons holding a freehoid of forty shillings—the value then has to be ascertained.—(Hear, hcar.)— aud I have not heard, my Lords, that there has been any great difficulty hitherto in ascertaining that fact. Hut, 'my Lords, it has been thought that more effective modes might have been adopted to reform abuse. I am net, my Lords, aware of any, but if there are, I should be very willing to lend every assistance to the adoption of them, with this proviso, that it shall not alter the extent of the qualification As I have before s.tid, my Lords. I think there will be no very great difficulty in this respect. I have already stated to your Lordships that there is no great difficulty in ascertaining the value of freeholders at county elections, and those with respect to the votes of the guar dians of the poor at Norwich no difficulty had been experienced. I know, my Lords, that it has been proposed by some that this should be substituted by a proof that rates to the value of 101. have been paid brit my Lords I think this would not be expe dient, and can he proved to be totally unne cessary. In the first place I believe, m) Lords, it is the custom in great towns to let houses according to their actual value, in some the rate is taken at three fourths, in others at three-fiths, and in some as two-thirds, and therefore with respect to that there might be some difficulty, but to make out the value that isj not necessary. The overseer of the poor knows how the houses are a.'3c.§2e(l to the poor and he can ascertain generally the value of the teneinent for which the rates are paid. I say therefore, my Lords, that. you have here a criterion that goes far to obt4ate fraud and abuse, and which .will enable you to ascertain the value easily. I think, therefore, my Lords the provision introduced into this Bill, will be effectual, but any thing that can be pointed out to secure that object more I shall be most happy to take into consideration. Now, my Lord, it has been stated that this is liable to further abuse, hut if any thing can be stated as more effectually nhViating that abuse, I shall lie most happy to concur in it. except in Very feiv plAces ihrleed, not above six or seven at the Most, the constituency created under this anode iris not at all excessive. One fallacy prevailed with the public, they suppose] that all this persona who were ervered as qualifi-d tenant. would be able to vote at the election. It must be con sidered that many of these would be absent, many would be possessed by widows, and many by others not otherwise possessed of the right of voting. Probably the persons actually voting might Ise taken at only . ene fourth the total nattialier. It must be observed, that this proviaiois it e§ not contain exclusively the 101. housea, for it contains all those above 10/., great Many of Which are of such higher description of such a high des&iption that no man would think of ex cluding them from the right of voting. The total number of boroughs in which this right of voting . wll be possessed will be from 3 to 500. There will be 115 in which the constituency will not exceed 30. from 50 to 100 ; 69 from 100 to 800 000. There was nothing very alarming ill this. From 500 and upward s , only 30. Except in the London districts, the highest i s that of one thousand two hundred. Your Lordships will not see reason to apprehend that this privilege of returning Members of Parliament by persons who h a rental of 10/ , subjcet to rates anal assessed taxes, can he one that threatens any of those dangers by which it has been en,lea voured to alarm the public mind. If there is nothing in the numbers, is there any thing in the quality of the persona admitted to the right of British citizens. Those who pos sess tenements above 10/. have given a pledge t i the corn• munity for their good conduct by their habits of industry. I trust, then, in contending for this enfranchisement, as one of the material principles of the BM, it will be seen that care has been taken to guard against the operation of this measure in producing any of the consequences which it has been supposed were likely to ensue. I trust it will he further considered that there must be also a residence and occupation of one year to entitle a person to vote. The period cannot he less than a year, and it might be much more. (Heir, hear.)—After all the consideration I have been able to give the subject, I do not apprehend that any diffi culty or danger is likely to be experienced from this ; more especially when I consider that in the present scot and lot boroughs, occupations only required for six months in stead of twelve. My Noble Friend has stated that a large measure of Reform is required. That is the case, and I sty that as) , great measure of Reform likely to give satisfaction to the country, must be fonnded on the principle I have just laid down. But the Noble Earl also objected to the nnifortnity of this franchise. Now, I hold uniformity " prima facie" and per se' to be a great advantage, for it leads to great facility, in execution. The objdction to uniformity must rest upon this—.that uniform right of voting will confer the franchise upon one particular description of interest. If this were true, I should admit, uniformly, was one evil but it is not true. The uniform right of voting established by the Bill is beneficial, as tending to simplicity and facility, and executon,—but th ugh the right he uniform, the possesion is various. We most recollect that the rank, the habits, the interests, the character, and the dispositions of all persons possessing this right will vary according to the different circumstances in which they are placed. The 101, voters of Liverpool and Manchester will he a different description of persons from the ten pound voters of Guildford and Durcliester.—(Hear, hear.) In one place th, y will he commercial, in another manufacturing, and in a third agricultural. In some, perhaps, as Chatham and Plymouth, they will be subject to the influence of the Government. That may, however, be an objection ; but I state it to chew that although the right be uniform the possession is serious, and will be given to all descriptions of persons in the community, thus producing that effect which all must wish who dasire to have a real, and not a nominal representation ; namely, a fair representation of all the interests of the country. I think I have already trespassed too long upon your Lordships' time but I have now detailed the three great principles of this Bill which are slid to constitute revolution, but which I say are great and proper principles of Reform, and upon which I think this Bill may be beneficially and safely carried into a law. My Lord., there are provissions of the Bill, differing from the last, which have been introduced, chiefly with a view to meet the objections which were entertained by many to that which was before under our considera tion. In the first place, the number of the House of Commons are to remain unaltered, the Members of which representing England and Wales being being reduerd only by the number of representatives which have been added to Ireland and to Scotland. In the next place, the right of voting exercised by freemen, instead of terminating with their lives, is to be continued to all who acquire it by birth or servitude. In the third place. -.he boundaries of bergouhe, intiread of being decided by Commons, are to be provided for in a Bill now before the Commons, which will be necessary to give effect to that part of the Bill. Some sul'ordinate regulation!' have been in troduced but as they do not affect the principles of the Bill, they are undoubtedly matters fur consideration in C. inim ittee I have left behind me the paper to which I intended to refer, but I can state generally the contents of it. With the additions that have been made to the county representation, the county Members for England will be 144, with the old boroughs which were not disfranchised, except those which have been reduced to use each the old Boroughs will make 264, the new Boroughswill return 64, making the whole 328, and makiug altogether with the county Members, 472 for the. whole representation of England. Add those to the additions which bad been made in Wiles, and it will appear that the whole number for England and Wale'', was only thirteen below the former nutober, which thirteen was given in relative pro portions to Ireland and Scotland. Your Lordships will therefore perceive that the alterations which hive been made cannot be of very material consequence, for surely 658 Members in the House of Commons so constituted will insure a general and due consinera tion for the interests of the kingdom. It has been said as one objection to this measure, that it will be of too democratic a tendency. There did not appear to him to be any ground for any serious oppression in the representation being too democratic. In the first place the 144 mem bers were more particularly connected with the landed or, if you will, with the Aristocratic iterests, I say the same of the 264 for the boroughs, making 408 out of the number fi r England—and I should say they were all ge nerally connected with the landed interest—there re mained 64 for the new boroughs, which, if they were confined to the manufacturing aad the coinmei ciaal interests alone, I should say they might lie objected to. But I do not think that 64 members, added to those interests which have grown to such a considerable extent within the last century, witl by any means give them more influence in The State. than they are justly entitled to in consequence of their weight and importance. These we the principles and the alterations which have been made in consequence of the objections which were raised to the measures which were last before your Lordships. I hive now concluded all I had to say, I beg to assure your Lordships that I feel all the importance of my situa tion, I have endeavoured as far as I could, and if I have not executed the intention I regret it sincerely, and I ask your Lordship's pardon for it, but I have endeavoured, as far as I could, to avoid any thing which could excite unplea slut feelings, which could produce unpleasant sensatiens. I wish to introduce this measure in such a manner, and to discuss it in such a manner as to divesgtietroosfitayl,l and d rme to r prejudices, of all party spirit, and o f all en proceed with obliteration have a haven d acted aheievec t calmness, d thewished with t to introduce public inandsincerity,t o g to unite ilnt measure, i s in this ghleinsaemrt general sensible r t l e e h o I is peac question . of this am the more sensible when I remember the great inte treesretestswwhhicilcih depend d d l ' h p e on internal th manufacturing prosperity, and the security of its foreign relations. (Cheer..) I need not tell your Lordships this fo you must all he aware th at those interests must be be materially affected by the long continued ens pence in which the public mind has been kept (Hear,) by the discussion of this question. His Al jetty's Member were not to blame for this suspence, nor will I imputethe blame to those who thought it their duty. such a manlier as to bring it to a speedy to appose the measure. All I desire is that it shall be now (tleirsemuisnseatdionin. The opportunity is afforded which trust will nut be lost, for it may not be very easy to recov , r i t aga i n ..--(Cheers.) 1 hive been accused of using me language of intimidation ; but nothing was eeer farther from my wish than to influence your Lordships. fears on a question which shonld be de rided' I tnent. I wish e • by your calm g .state to your Lord ships that no influence, no authority, n o power on earth tee set up in defiance of public opinion..—(Loud cheers.) I counsel your Lordships not to yield to the exorbitant and nureasonable demands of clamour; but I also state that the deliberate sentiments of hceoyuatreraey:n,tdihintiilsts. governs and intelligent people possessed only after long refl cction are entitled to your at. tcntion, and give ate leave to say to your respectable I feel deeply all the consequences of a rjection of this measure to the country, to your Lordships, and to myself—to the country, as it is connected with all the interests on which its power and prosperity depen and to your Lordships te whom the p eople look with con fidence, reference, and respect. I have been told that the people no longer look upon the question with the same eyes as they did before ; but I 'eny the truth of that assertion. (Heir, hear.) They are silent; but they look with no less anxiety to the , leliberatians of this evening—they are silent, not front such causes as have been attributed to them ; but solely from an unextinguished hope th it your Lordships will grant that for which they have so earnestly prayed.— I believe the silence which has prevailed of late throughout I.the country, on this measure, to be the ffect of a latent 113 p • that ydUr Lordships will not reject the Bill, and give up the people to despair.—Hear, hear, hear.) These, my Lords, are my views on this important question ; and I am sensible, that no man ever stood before Parliament under the same weight of personal responsibility that now rests on me. In the course of this proceeding I have been subject to much undeserved suspicion, which I hope I never will deserve. I have proposed what I thought woul,l be the best for my Sovereign and my country : and it has been a measure which is now generally admitted to he necessary, and with respect to which the only difference of opinion is as to the extent of it.—(Cheers.) Upou that 1 have exercised the best judgment I had. I believed that a large measure of Reform—an efficienr measure of Reform—such as would meet the expectations of the country, was certainly very necessary —necessary if you wish this country to draw that peace. ful and prosperous situation: which as long as their aagitation continues it cannot be expected to resume, but which in my opinion is absolutily necessary to have effected. I knew well the difficulties I would have to encounter in bringing forward the measure, and amidst all the perplexing embarrassments with which it has been beset. I have endeavoured to conduct it by an even and steady conduct to the successful end which I trust on this occasion it will come to.— (Hear, hear, hear.) As on the one hand I have not been deterred from bearing of difficulties, so on the other I have not suffered myself to b • forced by clamour into prosecu ing the measure by means which, if another mode could succeed, I was certain ought not to be adopted.—(Cries of " Hea-, hear, hear." under these circumstance I hope for better things—indeed I look with something approaching to a firm confidence in the conclusion to which your Lordships' will come. I f I should be disappointed, I shall st ill have the consolation of feeling that I did the best my judgment could suggest, and that I acied ac cording to the best dictates of my conscience of what was r:ght If misfortune should follow this measure, what I pray for is—that it may be only confined to myself—that I may he the sole victim of it—that my so vereign, my country, and your Lordships may remain untouched—above all, that you moy be enabled to maintain that union with the people which is so necessary for tae welfare of both, and upou which your fortunes, your authorities, your character, and influence must all depend. My Lords, with these observa tions I beg to move the second reading of this Bill.- --(Long and reiterated cheers followed the Noble Earl's speech.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH lose to oppose the second ri ailing of the Bill. (LEFT SPEAKING.) SPIRIT OF TUE PUBLIC JOURNALS. This day the discussion on the second reading of the Reform Bill commences. The eyes of the nation are now fixed intensely on the House of Lords, whose decision will be attended with consequences for weal or woe of a magnitude unexampled in the history of this country. We trust that wisdom and moderation will guide their Lordships, and that the decision will be in accordance with the hopes and wishes of the people. As yet all is peace and order, but how eventful may not the next few days prove ? Dull and insensible must that man be who can look forward without apprehension to the issue of the approaching discussion. As far as we can learn, the promiseS which Earl Grey has received, and on the faith of which he enters on the ques tion of the second reading without any creation of Peers, are not positive, but con ditional. Provided, it is said, the debate on the part of the supporters of the Bill be con ducted in a certain way, certain Peers are agreed not to oppose the second reading. If this be the case, a door is open to all manner of pre texts and cavils. We can hardly bring ourselves to believe (though we have heard this stated in respectable quarters) that Eirl Grey would ha zard himself on ground so very precarious. The hazard of attempting a second reading of the same measure in the sitme House which formerly threw out the Bill, and thus throwing himself on the mercy of his enemies, is sufficiently ha zirdous even with the most positive and uncon ditional pledges. The proceedings of the next few days may have an issue which no British Statesman may be able to control. Should the Bill be thrown out, who can calculate the effect which such a result would produce on the mil lions DOW waiting in anxiety the decision of their Lordships ! Should but a part of what has been distinctly announced in most of the great hives of British industry be carried into effect—should the immense masses of this country be thrown loose—how soon would the insensate men, who, by their decision, brought this about, repent their rashness in sackcloth and ashes ! There is no return. All confidence in public men would be gone. The bark of the State would be hur ried on like a canoe approaching the falls of the Niagara. Nothing could stay the movement. In no country could the franchise be committed to time people with more safety than in England. They are cool, intelligent, and orderly ; the middle class is numerous, and possessed of much practical knowledge. Even the working classes in towns, and England is now nearly one great town, are accustomed to discussion, and capable of weighing proofs and arguments to an extent of which there is elsewhere no example. Be sides, the character of the nation is rather strength to resist than briskness in attack. The patience and forbearance displayed so long under an almost universal conviction of the necessity of Parliameniary Reform, as the only means by which the nation can be rescued from a destroy ing and all-pervading corruption, afford the best a nswer to those who affect to entertain appre hensions from the communication of the suffrage to the middle classes. If the Bill be thrown out on the second reading, we question the power of Ministers to repair the mischief. We have heard of plans of instant prorogation in such case, to be followed up by an abundant creation of Peers But will the people understand all this refinement ? The Duke of Wellington, in his straight-forward way, is throwing out lures to the Irish Orangemen—promising them, that should he be once more in power, he will not call them to too rigorous an account, if they should overstep justice in bleeding the Irish people. And the English 'Squires are coin forted with the promise of indulgence for future affairs in the style of Manchester. It is obvious that his Grace calculates on a crisis in which he ma y act a bold part. We shall have a fearful re-action, that is certain, should his Grace once more he at the helm. Once more we call on Earl Grey to reflect on the imminent danger to which we are all exposed. One false step, and the evil may be beyond remedy.— Morning Chronicle. We had not time on Saturday to remark on the debate in the House of Commons on the second reading of the Irish Tithe Bill, which' was protracted to a very late honr. The measure was strenuously resisted by the small phalanx of Members that has hitherto opposed its pro gress. The object of those gentlemen was to have further time allowed for th e Consideration of such a baish measure as Mr. Stanley was about to inflict upon Ireland. It was in vain that Mr. Hume solicited this boon, and reminded the Noble Lord opposite of his pledges to bring forward together his measure of conciliation as well as that of coercion—it was in vain that Mr. Leader and other Irish Members urged the reasonableness of a little delay, and the opportu nity which the approaching recess would afford them of returning to Ireland and conferring with their constituents on such a vital question— it was in vain that the manner in which the Catholic Relief Bills with that for the abo lition of the forty-shilling freeholders were brought forward, was advanced as a fit pre cedent to observe on the present occasion. No, Mr. Stanley was inexorable, and Ireland must be taught a lesson—a lesson by him indeed ! But the law must be vindicated, says Mr. Stanley— and under his new Bill the power and influence of the Crown must be superadded to that of the church—and Crown Lawyers, Assistant-Bar risters, and Tithe Proctors be let loose on the harassed and oppressed peasantry and land holders of Ireland. Lord Althorp havi%,_ad mitted, on a question put to him by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that coercion ought to be accompanied with conciliation, was again pressed by Mr. Hume to state how soon the mea sure of conciliation would be ready ; and having replied, that as the Tithe Committee was still sitting, he could not give a positive answer, Mr. Hume very properly observed, and every reason able man must agree with him, that his Lordship gave a sufficient reason for stopping the present measure altogether. Mr. Ruthren, however, proceeded to address the House for some time, and then moved, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time that day month ; in which he was supported by Colonel Torrens, Mr. J. Grattan, and Mr. Shcil, who delivered one of those fine effusions of eloquence for which that gentleman is distinguished. He observed, " It is said we must vindicate the law; but a bad law ought not to be vindicated by a new one more defective." He contended that " the Bill was unsustained by evidence—it was against all precedent—it was opposed to all principle, and contrary to sound policy." The evidence, he observed, " went to show that the arrear could not be collected ; the testimony of seventeen Protestants and one Ca tholic was taken from the vestry-room and from the police barracks—it was clerical and consta bulary—yet, bid as it was, it proved that the arrear could not be collected." The Bill, he Bays, " was against all precedent—no such en actment waa to be found in the English Statute book, though something analogous might be discovere4 in the Draco-Code of Irish Legisla ihneg th the Parliament King assignee hadtion ; refrained alt ottg I f i roni even mhak t of a most odious system of litigation, which tar nished the Crown with the dust of every Court of Piepoudre. The Bill, he contended, was against principle, because it deprived the defen dant of all due notice, and substitwed for a sub poena and a civil-bill a proclamation and a pla card. It was also repugnant to justice to inflict coercion first, and leave redress to contingency. It was lashing over-burdened and oppressed Ire land up the hill, and waiting till the summit was reached, to lighten the load." To Mr. Shen brilliant effusion, the manufacturers of the Bill, Mr. Crarnpton attempted a reply, in which he stated that it was necessary to resort to the present measure, " because the arm of the Crown and the law was strong ; but the arm of the Church was weak !" and he denied " that the present was a coercive measure, but, on the contrary, one in which justice and mercy were most equally blended." We turn, however, with no very pleasing reflection from Mr. Crampton, and his legislation and his law, to take up with consi derable satisfaction the excellent counter-resolu tions laid before the House on Monday last, by the Learned Member for Drogheda, and we recom mend them, and the sound constitutional doc trine which they contain, to the serious and de liberate consideration of every Member of the House while this Bill is in Committee—to com pare them with the Bill, and reflect well whe ther this ill-judged coercive measure of Mr. Stanley's, if. adopted, would not be " at once in jurious to the rights of the subject—derogatory from the honour of the Crown—and, instead of vindicating, powerfully tend to disparage and de grade the law of the land."—Morntng Chronicle. This evening, as the public are aware, the Reform Bill stands for a second reading in the House of Lords, and the only part of the struggle from which we apprehend any danger begins. At this trying hour we have the satis faction of stating, that though we have strongly censured Ministers for delaying the creation of Peers, we never for a moment doubted their honesty, or their sincere desire to carry the Bill. We are moreover convinced that they att g eh o aot t b o jtei t lc l e i ty e , s w e i ci l on b d e a re b a le din to g u su n c d c e e r ed th i e n fi ti r ie m ir b u e l l t i i e m f t t ip.ah r oi t e i lr s mt t iiwnnwghi which answering t rw l ts t iet e i refiy p anl r gi o h m att lih is eee e s rrpe a e su i c i pbe d oil vinc a es s di s be. o rances of sup iii)tShouldexpectations, inl as they ion having neglected the warning voice which the friends of Reform have raised ; but, in the second place, the faithless Peers who have broken their en gagements,—if such there be,—need not hope to escape with impunity. Their promises are registered, and the indignation of the public will not be slow in avenging on the- traitors their known perfidy. But let it not be sup posed that these are the only parties whom the people will hold answerable for pro tracting the fulfilment of a nation's just and reasonable expectations. While a severe ac count will he exacted from the Ministers who exposed the great measure to the pos sibility of hazard, and from those professed supporters of the Ministers who deserted them in the hour of need, the third party must not flatter themselves that they will be forgotten. It is impossible that those uncompromising ene mies of the national cause who have never ma nifested any relaxation of their hostility, and who pride themselves in their consistency of resist ance to the Bill, should move unharmed atnidat the storm which they will have so madly perse vered in raising. Amid all this anxiety—amid all this alarm for our country at the possible postponement of a measure so long delayed, and so ".e loudly have d o e n ma s °l t d i o i n a L immediate on esureso s u e r t c te e l o m f ent,— confi dence, that the King is stanch, and resolved to Pteoerscwarhryichtitlete measure.c ii r a e y ate t a h t i r t y ik nu n m e b ee er ssa o r f y Would that his Majesty's gracious peralission had produced earlier fruits Times. To doubt 'the determined resistance of the Peers to a project so perfectly insane, and to which the property and intelligence of the country are so utterly opposed, would !ie to libel them in • - - the grossest possible manner. Looking at their' past conduct, and the present state of the coun try, we are surely entitled to consider its final rejection as an absolute certainty ; but' we do earnestly hope that Viet will Be 6 the importance of rejecting it fearlessly on the second reading; Without censuring the motives of Lords Har . towby and Whaincliffe, we ask them, imploringly, to consider how they can possibly recognise the principle of the Bill, as propounded by Lord Grey, who is pledged to a measure " equally effi cient" with the last, and who would scarcely know how to look his ignoble Jacobin allies in the face if he permitted any important alterations. To extract the venom from the Bill would be impossible, for it is all venom. It involves complete opposition to all the prestrlptive rights, chartered privileges, and ancient usages dri which the Constitution rests, and proposes to give us liberty based on the assumed rights of man, proclaimed by the French atheistic school of philosophy. Those who talk of restoring to the people their " rights" by this Bill do not mean rights which they ever possessed accord ing to English law, but rights which are claimed on the principles of the jacobins and infidels o France. We call upon the Bishops, one and all, to rescue the Church they repre- . sent from the indelible disgrace of sanction ing there principles. Their late vote we know exposed them to the utmost hatred of tie Radical faction, but that hatred was mingled with respect. If they now falter in their course they will have to encounter the same hatred, with the added ingredients ofscorn and contempt. The question is one of life or death to the Church of England ; and how can the Bishops call upon the members of that Church to stand fast in the evil day if they them selves set the example of tergiversation aid anostacy ? It appears (thanks to a noble con stitutional firmness somewhere existing) that there are to be no new creations to force the second reading ; but what is to prevent them from being resorted to for the alleged protection of the Bill in Committee, when the principle=-- the fatal principle, has been recognised? Before the waverers put into execution their unac countable purpose of voting for the second reading, ought they not to demand distinct and solemn pledges on this head ? We im plore those few Noble Lords who may be yet undetermined not to f a ll i n t o this specious snare. Once conceding the principle, they will abandon the elevated position which they now occupy, an i which, defended with ordinary zeal, would prove perfectly impregnable. As to the possible swamping of the Peerage by subsequent creations, the Bill having been thrown out, such a thing is scarcely conceivable ; but in any circum stances, a steadfast adherence to principle will prove to be the safest course. Constitutionally speaking, the attempt to stifle the voice of the second estate would be as revolutionary and trea sonable a step as the decapitation of Charles by the Long Parliament, and would probably lead to similar results. Such Peerages would never possess a proper legal character, and the Radi cals would he the first to remind the people that violence having been, done to the Constitution, their moral allegiance could no longer be de. manded. The fictitious Peers of the Revolu tion. would, doubtless, be contemptuously dis missed by the re-action of another. One firm and virtuous vote for the total rejection of the Bill would, we doubt not, save the country from revolution, and deliver it, at the same Moment, from an Administration in whom no important class of the community can place the slightest confidence. The eyes of the E m pi re are turned with som e anxiety, but with greater confidence, to the ranks of its conservative Piers ; and v 4 hen at their head is seen the first soldier and statesman of his age, who was always at , his post at the hour of England's need, and Who never led his followers to aught but victory, .all solicitude for the result must yield to calm and tranquil security. On the one side is Arthur Duke of Wellington and England ; on the other Earl Grey amid the Radicals! Posterity will certainly wonder that such a country should have been brought to the brink of ruin by so con temptible a fiction ; but those who save her front the danger will.not be on that account ,the less entitled to the meed which they will assuredly receive the gratitude of future ag es.—Morning Post. FEMALE RIOT. Late on Saturday evening Marylebone Office wr crowded by the parochial authorities and their atter*. ant, who preferred an accusation for rioting and swab— ing of windows at the workhouse, against a nurnbx of girl., who were immediately put within the bar. Among the accused the chief culprits were designated as Ann Boyd, their leader, Mary Broderick, Eliza Andrvws, Mary Webster, Jane Green, Jane Jefferys, Jane Salter, Ann Read, Jane and Mary Wadsworth, and Joanna Murphy. Boyd, the eldest, was by far the most defying and insolent, and actually threw a large stone at Mr. Hoskins, the sitting Magistrate, whilst that gentleman was admOnishing her. Isaac Twilley, the house steward, said, that the women now charged had demolished more than sixty panes of glass before they were secured. They were, he added, all ripe for riot, and like marl hulls more than any thing die. Never, in all his experience, had he witnessed such rioting as the present. In reply to Mr. }bursts's inquiry as to the occasion ,of these tumultu ous scenes , it was answere d t h a t some o f ih e young women ienn en,o ut dissuade them, and created the disturbances now ,com plained dv,olu whennt re r ß e do,y Boyd n i t n h d t e t, rg abettors irls, to go tri b olt r o d were the old women that they ran precipitately to amountage done o t n : to u the t •wl (east; an d windows wter rifiedpiateesdtoimf.ateTdheto mda theii. beds. mitted sThli I o Vf Boyd—YouEt t V h D o a : e s ' n a D n i d ne In'a t ar i m aeni e s a6cl . 2o w Ldi ttu,...4:::Bneslenoir.y.olduw.H,dteoolskiglCa:edlittvNiogoissout,eh.tenyaid:Htiu(yilrlbteu,es, to House o b f Correctiori - ; and when' you About six of the refractory girls, besides their leader, were committed, each during one calendar month, to the House of Correction. BIRTHS. On the 6th inst. at Herne-hill, Camberwell, Mrs. C. Barry, Of a daughter. On the 4th inst., at Barton House, Warwickshire, the lady 44 F. Colvile, Esq. 01 a son. On the nth inst.:at Sir John Croft's, Bart Park-crescent, Port- I.tnd.place, Lady Croft, of a daughter. On the 3d inst. Mrs. Frederick C. Westley, of a son. Oa the 6th inst. in Devonshire place, Mrs. Lanham Christie, of a son. ARRIED. On the sth inst . at Qo M atten, in the county of Salop, the Rev. 'l'. F. Boddington, of Hinder, in the county of Somerset, to Mary Barbara, only surviving daughter of the late Rey. John Wall, of the former place. On the 7th inst. at St. Paul's, Islington, Mr. Edward Mus grove, of Hackney, to Priscilla, eldest daughter of the late Thos. :Ztidd, Esq., of the same place. On the 7th init. at Abbott's Langley, Herta, John daughter'q.,. of Redhenth House, to Susanna Elizabeth, eldest of Samuel Ward, Esq., Leavesden. On the 7th inst. at Trinity Church, Islington, Richard J. J. C. Staff, barrister, to Isabella, third daughter of the late James Hall, Lirnehouse. On the 7th inst. Mr. Thomas Evans, of Pall-mall, to Louisa Archer, eldest daught,r of R. Atkinson, Esq., of Portland terrace. DIED. r'r On the 7th inst. in Dorset-place, Dorset-square, after a severe .Ind protracted illness, Ann, the only daughter of John Hode .on, Esq. On the 6th inst. at St. Alban's, aged 83, Sarah, the Wlduw ° f fhomas Baker, M.D. On the 7th inst. in Bedford-place, Bloomibury, after a veil protracted illness, Mrs. &ash lottug, wife of Florence Young, r:sq., in the 73d year of her age. . if On the 7th inst. in Nottingham -place, Louisa, the wife 0 l'hornas Byron, Esq., of Bayford, Herts. On the 2d inst. at Edinburgh, Lieut.-Colonel George Hunter , th. Madras Native Infantry, son of Dr. John Hunter, et Andrew's, North Britain. . - PIaNTED AND PUBLIMID BY MU RDO YOU N. As AT" 4% Su OrricP., 112, STRAxv, LoxvON.