The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

The mente. wancec n the In— )er of The chief clerks commencin with 1,2001. would stop at 15001. The aggregate of these different regulations compared with 1796, was as follows ;—The total amount in 1796 was 19,9401. the total now paid was 56,7701., compounded partly of salaries, and partly of consideration for length of service. The mini mum was 46,0001., but supposing all to have performed the pe riod of service prescribed to obtain the highest rank of salary, the maximum would be 64,5301. By the new regulations, the Minimum was fixed at 41,9001., and the maximum 48,0001. — The reduction, therefore, was, in the difference betw e en 64,0001. and 48,0001., being 34 per cent. diminution.—(Hear, hear, hear I)—The only other officelie should mention was the Secretary of State's Office, in which a similar reduction had taken place. Last year the numbers were 31; now they were 3 8. The minimun was then 18,0001., and now it was the same ; but the maximum, which was then 28,0001. was now 21,0001. exclusive of the reduction of five per cent.—(Hear !)—Through all the public departments his Majesty's Government had pro ceeded upon the same principle, and had effected the same ex tent of reduction.—(Hear !)---The Revenue Departments were undergoing the same revision, which he would not then detail to the House. He must not omit to express his gratitude to the Heads of Departments, for the cordial co-operation and able assistance he had met with from them, without which he never could have got through what he had undertaken. He felt this the more sensibly, as the task itself was so far from being a grateful one ; and he begged to assure the House that no thing but the commands of the Crown, and the weight of the declared wishes of Parliament, could have en abled the undertaking to be effectually accomplished, as it had been. Before he placed in one ' point of view all the general reductions, he would state that Government had gone through all the other public Departments a short time before the meeting of Parliament. They had done all they could with the great Revenue Department. They had ca ll e d before them the heads of these departments, and availed them selves of their assistance in pointing out any quarter in which they could apply the hand of retrenchment. The Customs Were under the examination of an intelligent Commission. Se veral others were under the scrutiny of the Board of Irish Com- Mission, which having seen the nature of the corresponding department in Ireland, were competent to effect that desirable assimilation and uniformity of system so eminently advanta geous. Government had not thought itself called upon by the voice of Parliament to invade domestic comfort and happiness with too rough a hand, by making any considerable reductions of salary in the public servants. It had been argued, indeed, that in what they had don e a l rea dy i n th at way they had gone beyond the bounds of justice. It was contended, that a clerk • had a right of property in his situation and salary, which could not be infringed. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) never would admit such a principle to such an extent. He never would agree that Government, who had the power to dismiss, had not the power to control. But lie admitted that like all other prerogatives it might be tyrannically exercised. He hoped, however, that it would be found that they had exercised the power which had been left to their discretion, their mercy, and their justice in due temperance, although not without a portion of rigour which the necessity they were under imposed Upon them as a painful duty. In the discharge of it, they had studied as much as possible to engage the generous feelings of the individuals employed in the public service on the side of their duty. The duty of the head of an office was not only to see that the public duty was performed, but that the best ability of the individual was employed in its service, in order to ensure a zealous discharge of his functions—(Hear.) He hoped he had succeeded in siring such a sketch of the revision which had been made, as to give the House a competent idea of its nature. Of Ireland he should only say that a revision of the same kind was goingon. They were not in the same state of forwardness, but he hoped it would not be long before he should be able to lay the returns on the table of the House. It had been already stated to the House that there was another species of reduction—a re duction of the higher Departments of the State. The fact was that it was a long time since the emoluments of these situations had been increased. Ile found by a reference to a warrant issued by Charles the Second, that even in his time these officers were better paid than now. This would have justified their not being touched ; but his Majesty's Government felt that at a time when they were called upon to exercise retrenchment upon the lowest offices and situations, they must not shrink from approaching even the highest. They felt this the more strongly impressed upon them, from the example which had been set from the highest quarter.—(He a r, hear !)—He had his Majesty's com mand to acquaint the House, that his Majesty had given directions for reductions to be made to the extent of ten per cent. in those Departments of his Majesty's Household, which contributed more immediately to his personal comfort.—(ll ear , hear !)—The Departments he particularly a d verte d to were, The Privy P u r s e—the Lord Chamberl a i n ' s —th e Lord High Steward's—the M as t er of the Horse, a nd other s; an d as those Departments comprehended an expenditure of 300,0001., the remission of burthens to the nation would be 30,0001..--(Hear, hear !)--ln his paternal care, lie had taken more from himself than from his servants.—(Hear, hear !)—ln the reductions o f the sal ar i es of his Majesty's' Ministers it was not so heavily felt, as they had all private fortunes besides their official in comes. But his Majesty had nothing beyond his Civil List.— (Hear, hear !)—This don a ti on was due to his Majesty's own especial commands and paternal feelings ;—(llear !)—for he must say, that as a faithful servant of the Crown, he could not have advised a further reduction. The House had taken Wise precaution to save itself from the pain and disgrace of hav ing the Civil List to canvass. So doing the House had acted with not less wisdom than liberality. In saving the Monarch from the necessity of making such appeals as !.ad heretofore been of no unfrequent occurrence, they saved the country from that, than which nothing could be more injurious to its best intere s t s . It was proposed that the King should be enabled, by an order in Council, to reduce 10 per cent., all salaries of 5001. per annum, and upwards. Acting on this principle, of course all the prin cipal servants of the Crown would be comprehended by the re gulation, which would include the Lord Chancellor and the Cabi net Ministers; all the Political Officers of the State in England or Ireland would be subject to it. He had further to announce that this regulation was to continue in force for the chatting five Years. This stated, he hoped Ministers would no more be ac cused of acting with injustice, by reducing the salaries of Clerks and others, who were not high in office, while their own were snared. Though this accusation had often been urged, they had never thou g ht it wor th contra di ct i ng , convinced that the effect which it might produce for a time would not fail to be ' dissipated when the truth came to be known. He would now' endeavour to bring into one point of view the effect of the seve ral arrangements which his Majesty's Government had felt themselves called upon to make. He would first state what would be their effect in the present year, and then describe that which was calculated upon when the whole of the plan Which he had now opened to the House should have been car ried into complete execution. The immediate effect of the Superannuation arrangements, by which the country would Pay five instead of ten per Cent. would give a saving of 12,0001. The value of the offices which it affected being about 200,0001., or rather more, would make the saving amount to what he had stated. On the salaries connected with the revenue, there was Upon the whole a saving of Four per Cent. Though a consider able number of the salaries being low, paid but two and a half per Cent. taking into consideration the higher rate paid by others, he felt justified in stating the total diminutions to be equal to four per Cent. Hence would result a saving to the amount of 66,0001. This was an immediate reduction of expence already in operation from the 6th of January last. The saving on the offices not connected with the reve nue, he took at 15,0001. ' • he might perhaps be justified in taking th em a t 20,0001. but he preferred naming 15,0001. wishing rather to be under than over the mark. Taking these at 15,0001. the next saving was to be found in the per Centage taken from the salaries of the principal Officers of State, and this he would take at 22,0001., that sum having been saved to the State by a similar reduction made in 1817. Adding to these for the deductions made from the Household Officers and the Civil List, 25,0001. and to that sum his Majesty's gra cio us do nation to his subjects of 30,0001. the total amount will be 168,0001. This was exclusive of Ireland, for which 3 1,0001. or 32,0001. might be added, and thus the whole would be very little under 200,0001. Such was the amount of the present saving; but looking at the future, it would appear that the savings on the civil ffices, exclusive of those connected with the revenue, might be taken at 30,0001. in the revenue d e p ar t men t h e looked for a reduction of expence, exclusive of superannuations, and including the sav ings in Ireland ; the final result would be a permanent saving of 3 00,0001. and a temporary saving of 75,0001. for five years, snaking a total reduction, under the circumstances he had men tioned, and for the period he had named, of 375,0001. How far this might satisfy the House he could not say, but when the estimates came before them, they would have an opportunity of goin g into the details. The accounts would shortly be given, and then they would b e ena bl e d t o f orm a j u d gment of what had been done with respect to every office. In the mean time he hoped the House would give try Ministers credit for having laboured with diligence and indus to carry into effect the wishes of Parliament. He trusted it would be seen that every disposition existed on the part of Ministers to lessen the burdens of the people. The reductions now to be effected it should be remembered were proposed to be made on an esta tdishment, the whole amo u nt o f w hi c h excee d e d not 4 , 000 , 0001 . II hen Hon. Gentlemen talked of the immense savings which blight be made, they sometimes forgot the amount of the esta blishments on which they were to be made. They could not have More from a thing than the total amount of that thing. Whe ther the retrenchments now made had been carried far enough, would be the subject of inquiry. It might be too much to hope that they would satisfy the House in every respect ; but he trusted it would be seen that in every respect they had been made with fairness, economy, and discretion, with an anxious Wish to render justice to the community, and a no less anxious desire to act with liberality, justice, and the most kindly feel. big towards tho objects of the proposed reductions.--(Hear, hear !)---He concluded by moving a resolution, entbodyinie the plan opened in his speech as the basis of a Bill to be brought in. Mr. BANKES had listened to the greater part of the speech of his Right Honourable Friend with much satisfac tion, and especially to the statement which be bad made of the donation made to his subjects by the King. He thought the House ought to feel lunch gratitude fat the gracious manner in which the King bad thus come froward to contri bute to those savings which nyglit afford the public some re lief. With respect to some of the details of the plan, he was not sure that they would meet with his support. When so many of the salaries of public officers had been augmented within the last few years, on account of the depreciation of money, it was hardly fair to leave them in possession of the, incomes then given to them on that account, now that the currency was restored to the original standard. It was hard ly fair to leave them in possession of the incomes so aug. menteo, subjecting them merely to the per centage now pro posed to he deducted. To this he must very much demur, as •it appeared to him unreasonable not to do more. He had objected to some of these grants at the time they were made, hut many loco:nes ought to be reduced as low as they were twelve or fifteen years ago. He proceeded at sonic length to criticise the scale of remuneration which had been adopted. To biro it did not appear just that officers in the service of the State should be exempted from those inconveniences to which all other classes were exposed. He should like to see laid before the Hot se an account of all salaries that had been increased since 18!0, This dune, it might be proper to re duce them to what they were at that time, or to reduce part of the incre. s., and give the remaining part of it to the Su perannuated Fund. A pretty general increase of salaries had taken place between 1810 and 1815. With this increase it might be proper so to deal, that if the Superannuation Fund were kept up, the Government should be relieved front two thirds of the expense, instead of being only saved from half. That which he suggested, he wished merely to apply to the larger salaries. He would not go down to salaries below tool. He wished to give the Right . Honourable Gentleman every credit for what he had done. He had a difficult task to perform. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) might be right, and he (Mr. Moises) might be wrong, but he could not help 'stating what had occurred to him on the subject. If the motion before the House were now pressed, he should feel obliged to give it a negative. He repeated that the lat ter part of the Right Honourable Gentleman's speech had afforded him great pleasure, and he thought much gratitude due to his Majcsty for the gracious manner in which lie had come forward on this occasion, to surrender a portion of his income for the public benefit. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, nothing was further from him than the wish that this measure should be carried without previously undergoing the fullest discus. sion. But the better course alight be to let the resolution on which lie purposed to found a Bill pass, as he thought this would be the more convenient mode of discussing the merits of the plan. He had no wish but that it should be looked at in all its bearings, as he would candidly confess it was his hope that the more it was examined the more it would be approved. Mr. MARRYAT condemned the system of superannuation which was now acted on in the various departments of the state. It made no distinction between merit and no merit— it made no difference between activity and no activity. The man who was active or intelligent, and he who was stupid or lazy, were placed on the same footing under the present sys• tem. Of all the subjects connected with the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement, the existing system of superannua tion was by far the most important. The improvements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not remove his objections to that system. The question came to this—whether the plan of superannuation was wise and provident in the first instance ? Whether. in point of fact, it was not so radically bad as to call for its abolition altogether, instead of encou raging a hope that it could be improved ? In order to judge of this question correctly, they ought to be in possession of an account of all salaries granted to the civil servant* during the last 9 years, since the passing of the 53d of the late King, under which those allowances were made. That infocination was wanted. There was a paper printed ou the 2d of July last, containing 75 pages, which gave an account of the super annuation pensions, and the greater allowances connected with the higher offices, in which document they were stated at -228,0001. But that paper slid not, however, contain the expense under three important heads, which had been printed separately. The first of these, giving an account of the soper animations in the army in Ireland, was printed on the 30th of December, 1821, and stated the amount at 89,0001. The second gave an account of the superannuations in the colonies, and was printed on the 7th of June last. Those superannua tions were stated to he 17,9521. 12s. Bd. The third account was printed on the 15th of last mouth, and stated the super annuations in the Navy and Victualling-office to amount to 137,0001., snaking a gross total of about 471,8001. There were other departments,the amount oft he superan nuati OM connect ed with which were not stated. The Right Hon. Gent. had given to the House a statement of the amount of superannuations iu some departments, and he argued that those superannuation* were only in the proportion of * or 104 per cent. on the sums paid fur actual service. But he (Mr. M.) was inclined to be lieve that the account to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred, by no means gave a fair view of the whole ex pence. It happened, as he had before observed, that a paper was laid on the table on the 13th of last month, giving an account of the superannuation, pensions, and salaries of the different officers in the Navy and Victualling-office. The whole amount of expenditure was 543,0001., and he observed amongst the items a vast number of contingencies, compris ing stationery, parish rates, taxes, firing, postage, and he knew not what else. But, independeut of these charge's, there were upwards of 400,0001. for salaries; and the super animations, pensions to cummissioncrs, secretaries, clerks, mid others, in the civil department, amounted to 136,7721. making 25 per cent. on the amount of the whole sum, instead of 10i per cent. This expence had grown up since the year 1810, under the Act then passed. At that time, the super . annuations in the Custom-house were about 4,0(101. per an num, and they now amounted to upwards of 100,0001. If this superannuation system were stiffened to go on, it would be as bad as a second set of poor laws.—(Hear, hear!)—Haw then were they to deal with the system? In investigating it, two parties were to be considered—namely, the clerks themselves, and the public. The clerks remonstrated, most loudly, against what they called the undue profits which the Chan• cellar of the Exchequer intended to make at their expenee. They hail sent forth a pamphlet, to which were appended long calculations founded on Dr. Price's statements, by which they laboured to prove that a sum of 188,0001. would be taken from 588 clerks. They declared that they could do much better. for themselves than Parliament could do fur them, and they requested that they should be left in posses sion of the 5 per cent, of which it was intended to deprive them. They argued, that the accumulation of that sum at compound interest, or the laying it out on a life insurance, would furnish a better provision than was now contemplated for themselves and their families.—(Hear !)—He believed this to he the fact, and he knew not on what account Parliament should set about making a provision for all the clerks in the different offices. Why should they not be left to the &Oates of their own feelings,as other individuals were ? Why should they not be allowed to lay by, in the time of health and strength, that which would be sufficient for their mainte• Dance in the period of age and infirmity? He knew no right they had to force men to adopt a system of economy. Indi vidual morals were not the object of legislative interference. But what were they now called on to do? They were asked to agree to a measure which would absolutely prevent men from becoming provident, and would tend to make them sel fish. The legislature would by this measure compel a man to provide for himself; but, at the same time, they left his wife and family destitute.—(Hear, bear!)—The clerk must, ac cording to this plan, make a provision for his own subsist• ence; but, if any accident occurred to him, his wife and fa mily would be left without support. Now, he would consider the case with respect to the public. He had already stated, looking to one of the most extensive boards, that the clerks declared 5 per cent. to be too great a deduction front their salaries, since they could for considerably less do all that was proposed by his Majesty's Government. There was one plain cause for an alteration of the system, and there might be many others which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could explain. The cause which he alluded to was the abuse of the 53d of the late King. He believed that Act had been inter preted in a way which Parliament never intended.—(Hear.) —The word " superannuation" carried its own meaning with it. The meaning evidently was, that a man should not be pro vided for by the public, until from age or infirmity he was rendered incapable of performing the duties of his office.— (Hear, hear.)—But was that the way in which superannua- Lions were granted ? Certainly not. He knew no man, whose acquaintance was in any degree extensive, who could nut reckon amongst that acquaintance several persons who were superannuated in the Parliamentary sense of the word. —(Hear.)—There were many young men at present walking about in idleness, who were supported at the public expellee. He would suppose a young man of 15 or 16 entering a public office; at the end of 15 years, circumstances might have enabled him to improve his fortune in a very great degree. A man thus situated would rather play for a part of his salary than work for the whole. He was immediately seized with a head ache, or fancied he had one (hear, hear !), or he pleaded that he was assailed by some other trifling complaint; and the same power that got him into office was effectually exercised to get him out, with a handsome superannuation allowance. ' —(Hear !)—By this system three men were often paid for walking about, while the active service was performed by one.—(Hear This was the system under the Act of the 53d of George 111. When a mau went out of office superan nuated, one would suppose . that he was incapable of doing any thing. But if, in a few years after, a better situation was offered, the superannuated individual frequently welt to business again, and became as able and efficient an officer as any in Isis Majesty's service. --(Hear, hear !)—lt would be invidious fur him to name one instance of this kind, as it was not in his power to name them all. Viewing the plan as attentively as possible, it appeared to him that the deduction of 5 per cent. was too much for What his Majesty's Minister; proposed to do for the clerks; and, on the other hand, su perannuations to the amount of 2.5 per cent. was by far too much fur the public to pay. From these considerations, it struck him that it would be wiser to give tip any attempt to amend a s:stem which was so defective, and so liable to abuse ; /sad that the better line of conduct would be, to adapt the plan pointed out by the clerks themselves ; name ly, that of le iving them to pursue the dictates of their own feelings.—(Hear!) —The Act of the 5.3 d of the late King ought to be repealed, and those individuals should , be left, like the rest of mankind, to act for themselves. Mr. HUME had been about to take the part which the Hon. Gentleman had taken, as he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not proceed with his plan till the details had been brought before Parliament. He complained of the increase of superannuat ions. This he instanced in the case of the Customs, where a fund hadbeen accumulated amounting to 77,0001. when Government took charge of it. From that time the superannuations increased at the rate of 10,0001. per an imas, and, two years after the charge thus created, amounted to 90,0001. He also complained of several individuals being paid for doing the business of one. He knew an instance of a clergyman, who had pet formed the duty at a very small cha pel, who had retired to make way for another Minister. This person had also retired, a third now performed the duty, and one of the two who retired had been removed to a certain si. tuation,—(Hear, hear,)—where lie now officiated, though he had been superannuated as unable to perform the duty at the chapel.—(Hear.)—He wished the clerks to be left to their own prudence. To the present system lie objected, as it was not one which rewarded merit., but one in which favouritism and influence prevailed. He was not prepared to receive the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman with that satisfaction with which others had seemed disposed to receive it. He went ou to show, that the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequer only offered an immediate reduction of 200,0001. out of 5,300,0001. With such a diminution of expence, lie, instead of being sur prised that so much had been done, felt altogether disap pointed. The total 'eduction to which we were to look for ward, would be within 400,0001. Now, in 179 G, the charge tor the Treasury was 20,0001. Now the minimum of expcnse nailer which the saute head at which they might hope to ar rive, gas 42,0001. being nearly double the amount in 1796. In 1813 an addition of 10 per cent. had been made to many incomes, and now, when a retina' to cash payments had been effected, a reduction ofd per cent. was all that was to take place. He thou complained, that low salaries were to be reduced more iu proportion than others, iso that a man who received 1231. was to be reduced to 1001. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER briefly ex plained what he had said, and stated this to he no part of his plan, and also that the comparison between the Treasury ex pense in 1796 mid the future charge was not correct. Mr. HUME resumed. He remarked in 1796 the Treasury expellee was 20,0001. It was now 47,0001. Add to this sum 3,0001., and it would he double what it was at the former periad.—(" No," " No l")—It would not be double its for mer amount, but it would greatly exceed what it was, and when all the reductions had taken place that they were now told tin hope fur, there would still be an additional charge of 12,0001. over that of 17116. He hyped the Right Hon. Gen tleman would not press the resolution to night. He com plained of the Superannuation System altogether, and con tended I hat the reductions proposed to be made, amounting to but 4 per emit. an the whole charge, without taking into consideration the large military establishment arid the civil department of the Navy, were by nu means commensurate with the expectations which had been held out, and could not satisfy the country. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gen. tleman that it was painful to reduce the incomes sit indi viduals. It would lie cruel to reduce one class and not ano ther, but when all were reduced there were no gruunds fur complaint. Ile was not satisfied with the reductions which had taken place on the Civil List. It was not enough that 55,0001. was proposed to be saved out of 850,0001.; 30,000 L being given 11 - p by the King, and the rest by different pub lic officers. lle was at a loss to conceive why it should be considered either painful or disgraceful to inquire into she state of the Civil List. That ought to be as liable as every branch of public expenditure to come before Parliament. The reductions tit present contemplated were nut such as could satisfy the people, but whatever was done, would, he hoped, be done with a fair and impartial !mod, deal ing out equal justice to all, from the highest to the lowest. Mr. S. WORTLEY was anxious to express Isis gratitude far the manner Ili which his Majesty had come forward on the present occasion, which he was sure would afford great sa tisfact ion to the country. The Right Honourable Gentleman had gone into some details, but till fuller information was be fore the House he could not say whether or not he approved of the plan. It seemed to him that the Hon. Gentleman had been mistaken with respect to some of the sums, when be complained of there being but a reduction of 53,0001. on the Civil List.. He forgot that the King gave 30,0001. from his privy purse ; that 23 or 30,0001. was to be contributed by the great Household Officers, besides 20,0001. from the Political Officers of the State. From what had been said, he thought it worthy of serious consideration, whether they should main tain the Superannuation Fund and reduce the salaries, or abo lish the fund and leave the salaries untouched. He should say no more, as his principal object in rising had been merely to express his gratitude fur the gracious condescension of his Majesty. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to offer a few observations at this period of the debate, as he thought it of considerable importance that they should distinctly under stand one another as to the course which it was proposed to pursue. His Bight Hon. Friend, on the present occasion, did not want to pledge any individual to support the mea sure he bad opened to the House; but what he desired was, that the Resolution should ;Pass, in order that a Bill might be introduced which would best bring the subject before the House in detail, and offer all the information that might be necessary to explain a system so complicated as that which it involved. The Bill, he understood, was ready to be introduced, and all the papers necessary to explain it were in forwardness. He (the Chancellor of the ExaheqUer) proposed to call fur no vote till all the documents were in the hands of Members. It was therefore his hope that no Gen tleman would think himself pledged to any particular line of conduct, by suffering the Icesolutions to pass through the Committee that night, in order that a Bill might be founded on it, which was the only way in which they could regularly get to the discussion of the real merits of the plan, and enable them thoroughly to understand the varioas points on which they might differ. He went along an Hon. Member who had spoken in this debate, in the opinion that the system, such as it had hitherto been ; was liable to abuse, and perhaps some abuses might have crept into it; but he thought his Right Houton - able Friend had opened a plan which went inima facie to correct the evil. In reply to the remarks on the superannnations which had taken place in the revenue, and political departments, he had to state that the average of years of service on which superan 'mations had been allowed, 'came nearer to 30 than to 29. The ages of those who had been superannuated averaged 65. The principle of superannuation, lie was of opinion, could nut at once be got rid of, to make way for the adoption of a principle of nun-superannuation. Supposing this attempted, and a clerk not being prudent, should arrive at such an age that he became a bad clerk, would it not, he would ask, be most revolting to feeling, to turn out a man after fifty years service, indifferent whether or mgt he had bread to put in his mouth, because he had net gone in time to an assurance office, or made a provision iu some other way for his declin ing years? This principle, if acted upon, would be injurious to the country, as it would cause individuals to be retained when they were no longer equal to the duties of their situa tions. The Act of the 50th of the late King had keen said to have led to the superannuation of missy young gentlemen. He did not know that such was the fact. He at least had not had the good fortune to fall in with these gentlemen. The present Bill, however, went to correct the evil. It adopted a principle which had been acted upon in Ceylon —put a limit to the danger by limiting the means which were to be thus applied, and made it the interest of all the other clerks who were in the service of Government to watch over the course taken, and see that no superannuation was allowed, but where it was demanded by justice or misfortune. He protested against the idea that the public service could be efficiently carried on without some principle of su perannuation, though he did not mean to sanction the establishment of an hospital of incurables, but at the sante time he protested against the principle of maintaining an unlimited fund. By the present plan, securities were ob tained against the abuse of the principle, which had never been obtained in this country before, which he doubted would prove an essential benefit. The Honourable Member for Sandwich had controverted the statement of the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, that the Superannuations amounted to but nine or tell per cent. on the total amount of the salaries, and had stated them to reach 24 per cent. But in this calcu lation the Honourable Member included not only Superannu ations for existing offiges, but those which had taken place on account of offices which had been suppressed. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had protested against the plan, and had attempted to damp the rising gratitude of the House, by de claring his conviction that it would not satisfy the country. It was, however, of some importance to remark, that this was the first night that Hon. Gentleman had come fill ward in so low a tone, He had nerer heard him (if he might be allowed the expression) sing in so small a key befoie.—(a laugh.)—This proved that the Hon. Gentleman had been rather damped, or at least surprised, to find that he had not made quite so gond a case against the Chancellor of the Exchequer as he had supposed himself to have when he came down to the House. He was afraid, when the papers came before the House, that it would be necessary to disturb the - Honourable Member for Aberdeen on the ground which he had chosen, by proving the reductions to hare been made on that amount of charge which he had contended for, hut on an establishment of not more than 4,000,000. With respect to other matters, it were to be remembered that Committees had sat on the affairs of Ireland, on the Custornsibere, on the Exports and Bounties; and he hoped the Hon. Member would not be surprised if, when these subjects came before the House, be should find that Government had not been wholly inattentive to the interests of the country with respect to them. The Hon. Gentleman was next at a loss what proposition to offer to the House, who had always been ready to fly to a reduction of 95 per cent. Now his Right Hon. Friend had come down with reductions to the amount of twenty per cent., yet still they were told that these were inadequate and fell short of the just expectations of the House. Was this the way to en courage Ministers to pursue economy ? Was this the way to animate them to a performance of their duty, to treat with contempt what had been dune ? Was it well always, whatever might be offered, to demand more, as if appetite increased from the sustenance which it received? He desired that Ministers should be fairly tried—that their measures should receive the fullest discussion ; but he trusted the House would not share the feelings of the Hon. Gentleman, with respect to what they had now offered. He contended that because 47,0001. was the maximum of the Treasury charge, and 42,0001. the minimum now looked for. there was no proof that Government had not approximated the expenditure as closely as might be to that of 1796. Was it astonishing that such an increase had taken place, when it was remembered how much the business bad increased, and that that of the Irish Treasury had been added to it. His Right Umlaut-able Friend had shown that a reduction to the amount of 33 per cent. had been made in the Treasury, which was considered the favourite department. This he considered a pretty good earliest of the resolution of Govern ment to enforce economy, when such a diminution of charge was made, besides 5 per cent. being contributed to the Su perannuation Fund. The Hon. Gentleman called for details with respect to the Civil List. The House had never been dis posed to do so but when its attention was called to it in order to effect an alteration or to pay off a debt. This was in fact that which they had commonly considered it was out of their province, and almost beyond their competency, to examine. Mr. Fox said :—" I never wish to come in contact with the Civil List, unless the Crown brings us into that contact with calling for a new provision, or requiting to discharge a debt." He trusted, if the Honourable Gentleman still retained his wish on this subject, that the House would differ from him, and not depart from their ancient principles of good faith. He trusted this subject would be treated in the only way in which the gracious desire manifested by his Majesty to share time privations of his people ought to be treated. Had the King been able to gratify his paternal feelings, he would have made a much larger sacrifice. But his Government felt, that to push the concession further would have been the worst of all delusions on the country, as it would have com pelled the Crown to come to the House at no distant day to claim their aid to relieve it from debt. Nothing could he so detrimental to all interests than to go into those discussions which were entertained iu late years, upon the Civil List, because at that time it was not managed by the regulations which governed it now. For five successive years the Civil List had been brought, in all its details, before Parliament, in a manner which it was exceedingly desirable should be avoided ill future. Nothing could be so detrimental either to the Crown or to the people, as to bring the expellees of the Crown forward as a matter of discussion for Parliament,— Upon the acknowledgment of this principle, a measure had been adopted in the year 1816, which had so far wwked well, that as yet there had been no occasion to examine into the subject since that period. It should be borne in mind that this was not the first time the country had been indebted to the Crown for its assistance in periods of public distress. In lil2 his Nlajesty voluntarily abandoned 50,0001. flow his in come, trout the same motives which prompted him upon the present occasion. Then the sacrifice was only made for one year; because his Majesty's Ministers, after s very consi deration they could give the subject, were convinced that the Civil List would only bear the reduction for one year without producing the worst consequences. It should he recollected, however, that this 30,0001. was to he given op for five succes sive Years. He was convinced that if the Ministers had ad vised a more ext...sive sacrifice, it would have involved the Crow!! and Parliament in the most unpleasant result of an inqoiry such as lie had mentioned. He therefore trusted that Parliament would feel, as he was confident the country would, that this was ; one among the many instances which proved that the King felt and sympathised whenever his people suf fered.—(Hear, hear, Ilea; l) Mr. G. BENNET said it was too much to call upon the [louse to pledge itself to a principle of superan n uation, such as the Bill would pledge them to, after the experiencethey had had of former abuses. There was no doubt butt the Govern ment ought to have the power of granting superannuations in cases of long services and specific acts, and Parliament would never be backward in ratifying grants of such a nature. The Noble Lord said, how could they turn out men upon the world, without the means of subsistence, after their services were no long er required, or capable of being rendered. But he would say, that in most cases, men ought to have provided for themselves, while they had youth and opportunity. The pm ivations which were suf fered in old age were frequently the penalties of improvi• deuce, and to which all mankind were liable. He thought the rate of per ventage was unfair with regard to the lower clerks. He should take care, whenever he had au oppor tunity, t o vote for Use reduction of the enormous salaries of the high offices of the State to that standard which the distresses of the country required. There were many suffices, stick as the Lord Steward and the Lord Great Chamberlain, which were offices of honour, and which ought to be per formed gratuitously. The Noble Lord had alluded to the former exposures of the details of the Civil List. But a was not from his side of the House that such a course was re commended. The accounts of the quantities of butter and eggs used in the Royal kitchen were laid before the House in the late reign, not, as be believed, from any request made from his (Mr. G. Bennett's) side of the House. He content ed that the Noble Marquis had quoted Mr. Fox's language with a different meaning to that which that great Statesman had intended it should have. The whole tenor of Ills life belied and contradicted the construction which the Noble Marquis had put upon it. The Honourable Member argued against the principle of the Bill, and said that he should wai for the details before he entered into his more particular ob ject ions. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY expressed his satisfaction at the contemplated reduction, because it held ..ut an example which he hoped would be further practised. However, the Noble Lord opposite only relieved the country of the bundle of fea thers, which were outside the real burthens of the people.— (Hear ! and a laugh.) Mr. WARRE thought other officers than those in the Lord Chamberlain's department ought to conic under the proposed reductions. Another class of salaries which was admitted, ought to have been noticed, namely, the salaries to our Am basso tors. He did not now wish to enter into that subject, nor to press an answer; neither did he consider a mall living up to his income as a naval officer, although it might be wiser he should have put up a little. nt still, if such a man had been a faithful public servant, he was sure the feelings of the House would allow him sonic remuneration.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in explanation, said, that the Civil List in Ireland would also be subject to the Saline reductimras in England. He regretted the idea should abroad that the whole Civil List was foe the personal ex pense of his Majesty, for nothing could be more erroneous. A large portion of the contribution would come from the younger minister:, who would equally be obliged to pay their 10 per cent. Besides,no man who now voted for the first reading of the Bill would be bound to vote for its'adoption in its future stages, if he did nut approve of the principle on which it was founded. Mr. WYNN thought the principle of superannuation import ant. Were they to give small salaries to those who could nut do the public business properly, it would be the greatest waste of the public money. To suppose that they were to continue men in office after they were unfit for it, would be one of the wildest schemes that could be proposed ; and if they did not allow something to these wen on re tiring there would be no getting them out of o ffi ce, even when their faculties were gone. From all that he had heard there was a difficulty in prevailing upon officers to accept of the superannuation allowance; and if there were no such allowance they would have much difficulty in prevailing upon them to confess that their faculties were decayed.— Rather than be thrown destitute, the men would declare that they were fit for duty after that fitness was altogether gone. If they were to look into the matter, they would find that in stead of the superannuation being premature, (Awes had been held too long. Even the great Lord Mansfield bad held the office of Chief Justice for five years after he was unfit far it. There was no room fur finding fault with the system when the average service at which officers were superannuated was 30 years, and ',the average age 65 ; surely this could not be called abuse. He would put it to any Hon. Member, whether at such an age, and after such service, he would turn off a confidential clerk without waking him some allowance; and ought the country to deal a harder measure to those who had rendered it important services The Hon. Member for Almrdeen had said, that this rower of rewarding should he- , long to the House ; but he (Mr: Wynn) thought than the House ought to have no such power. The Crown was the proper constitutional source of honour and reward far public services, and if that power were to he transferred to the House, the Constitution would he at an end.—(Hear, hear, front the Opposition.)—Yes, he would say, that if the House was to take upon itself that power, the Monarchy would heat an end, and the country would be changed into a republic.— , (Hear, hear, hear!)—With regard to what had been said about the opinion of Mr. Fox, he (Mr. Wynn) believed that that applied not to the application of the Civil List, but to the regulation of it. The House had no doubt a right to look into that list, as they had into every branch of the expendi ture, but they had no power to take from it. He deprecated the frequent allusions to the Civil List in that House, as calculated to throw disrespect upon the Crown. Mr. Fox himself had held, that the amount of the revenue of the Crown should he fixed at the beginning of the reign, and not altered during it, except at the express desire of the Sovereign. This was absolutely necessary, in order that the Crown might not be brought into an improper dependence on the Howse ; for nothing was more likely to destroy the proper reverence fur the Crown than the discussions to which such a power in the House would lead. It would be placing the Crown at the mercy of any Ministry, who, fur temporary popularity, would so diminish the allowance, as to place the Crown un der the necessity of applying frequently to Parliament' for the payment of its debts. The House could not pacs by the rat offer which the King had made, and make hintsubrnit to measures which might force him to become a supplicant, in the course of that long reign which they all fondly anticipa ted. Nothing would be more degrading to the country, than that the Crown should thus be made a constant beggar in the House. Sir J. S. YORKE wished to know if the reduction which the King had proposed was to extend to the allowances of the Roval Fatuity ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the allow ances of the Royal Family were not placed on the Civil List, but on another fund, in order that any saving which was made on them might he immediately beneficial tu.t he public. Mr. PETER. MOORE said, he agreed that per suns who had rendered long services ought not to be left to apply to Parliament. He would contend that the Civil List, with the exception of the Privy Purse, was under the control of Par liament. He wished to say a word respectiog his Honourable Friend the Member for Aberdeen. He had lately been laughed at, and endeavoured to be put dawn by all sorts of means. But he hoped that he would not be put down.— Some years ago he commenced the same course as his Hon. Friend, but he was unsupported. His Hon. Friend, however, was not unsupported. He had found a most powerful friend, that would support hint in every thing; a friend the would long stick by hint—and that friend was public distress and public calamity.—(Loud laughter !)—The Honourahle Mem ber said, as he differed from the Noble Lord, and as he wished to have the papers printed before the House agreed to the Resolutions, he should move that the Chairman do re port progress. Mr. GIPPS apprehended that the course taken by the Hon. Member was irregular. Sir M. W. RIDLEY was not prepared to support the mo tion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Moore). The Resolution, as proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, did not pledge the House to the details of the measure. There was no pledge ex acted by agreeing to that resolution to support the Bill in all its clauses. The Noble Marquis himself had stated the resolution to I e merely preliminary. He, for one, was willing to say, that if a man in the departments of the public service had wasted his life, tattle greater portion of it, usefully and actively, that such a man was entitled to remuneration.—(Hear!)—He was convinced that, solicitous as every man was for economy, put.- lie opinion coincided in such a feeling. The Right Hun. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take 10 per cent hum all offices, without reference to the hopes or the preferments to which offices led. There was a class of office; which led to the first promotions; and the same deduction was only to be taken from them as from offices, the holders of which could never look forward to such preferments or distinctions. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, observed, that with respect to the time at which the deductions should com mence, it was intended that as to those offices which were under the immediate eontroul of Government, the deductions should commence from the sth of .January last ; the deduc tions from the other offices would remaiii under the cowl-out of Mirliament. Mr. cm.cRAFT observed, that to the Resolution as pro posed he had nu objection upon the principle. The period would arrive, in the discussion of the details of the Bill, at which the amount of deducdons from the lower offices might he discussed. The Civil List, strictly called, teas estima ted at 2 ruillions ; out of that portion of it which applied to the Household, his Majesty was graciously pleased to otitr a de (lndian of 30 per Cunt. Such a deduction he estimated most valuable; first as a principle—(bear, hear!)—and next, be conceived it a great saving in point of economy. Mr. %VIM. SMI al said he should support the Resolution with the understanding that he was not by that rote bound to support the details of the measure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER made some statement in figures, which we could nut hear su distinctly as to report their application. Mr. PETER MOORE did not wish, under the impression of the House, to persevere in his motion for the Committee's reporting progress. Sir. HUME wished to ascertain what the deduction was to be front all pensions, above 5001. per annum, held at pleasure? - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, as we under stood, said that was a question depending on the future deci . on of Parliament. Mr. W. PI-I( LIPS did not conceive that a reduction of 200,0001. or 2,000,0001. veui a sufficient reduction, when the landed and manufacturing interest were suffering a far gu cater reduction, under the exigencies of the country, in their re- spective properties. After a feW words front the Marquis of LONDONDERRY and Mr. LENNARI), the Resolutions were agreed to, and the Report ordered to be received to•tborrow. MUTINY BILL. Lord PALMERSTON ;tweed the second reading of the Mutiny Bill. Mr. HUME observed, that in the present state of the House he should not oppose the second reading of ,the Bill, but gave notice, that upon the report he should call the at tention of the House to that clause, under which the Crown assumed the power of dismissing officers without court-roar tial.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. GURNEY trusted that the attention of some Honour able Member, of greater indoenee than he possessed, would be directed to the crying evil of continuing en:istiiient for life, Mr. ‘VETHERELL wished to know bum the Honourable 'Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) whether it was his in tention, in his motion for the report of the Mini iny Bill, to deny the power of the CrOWN to dismiss officers without trial ? Mr. HUME—Yes; that will be the object of my motion. The other Orders of the Day were their disposeil of,and the House adjourned at Half-past Eleven o'Clock. VOTE OF THANKS TO DR. FORBES, Late of Penzance, 710Z0 qf Chichester. [hewn " The Cori wall Gazetlc."] At a Special Meeting of the Governors of the Penzance Public Dispensary, held on Wednesday the 27th February, 1822,—the iVorshipful the Mayor in the Chair ; 'Zest)lved—That it is with great concern we receive the re signation of Dr. Founcs, Physician to this Institution, to which he has. with sitch unremitting attention, applied his time and abilities, during four years and a half, to the great relief of its numerous afflicted patients, amounting, in the last year only, to almost seven hundred persons ; that we are deeply sensible of his humane and benevolent care and kindness towards the sick poor, riot only at the Dispensary, but in visiting them at their habitations during their illness and recovery; and also of his zeal in promoting the pecu niary support of this Institution to the utmost of his power. Resolved—That, for these reasons, and front personal re gard, we request hint to accept of our grateful thanks, and also to be assured that we most cordially and sincerely wish him professional success, with a long enjoyment of health and happiness, in his new situation. Resolved—That a copy of these Resolution , , signed by the Governors present, be transmitted to Dr. Forbes, and also published in the Cornwall Gazette. Signed by the Chairman, E. C. GIDDY, and 2l Governors present. At a Meeting of the Council of the Royal Geological Socie to of Cornwall, held at the Museum, on Saturday, the 2d March, 1922, Henry Penqarves Tremenhetre, Esq. Viet. President, in the Chair.—The resignation of Dr. Form's, as cretary to the L►stitution, having been announced, — Resolved—That the Council receive with gi eat regret the resignation of Dr. Forbes, on account of the important ser vices rendered by him to this Institution, of which they feel, and shall ever retain, the deepest sense; sincerely wishing him a long enjoyment of health and happiness, and flattering I hem selves that although the Society has thus unexpectedly lost hiS official services, it will still be aided by his scientific commu nications as an Honorary Member. Resolved—That a copy of this Resolution, signed by the Chairman, be transmitted to Dr. Forbes. (Signed) H. P. TREMENHEERE Clviirman and Vict-Presid, the sired now that oint ich it n the rouse ury, DO any 177 1 ) aced ince PC n as nent