The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-20 00:00:00

IMPERML PARLLEvIENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. THURSDAY, APRIL !9. MR. PLOMER was heard in continuation for the Appellants in the Chancery Appeal, Richardson against the Universities of OXfoi - d — atid Cambridge. Postponed till Wednesday. The Bins on the Table were forwarded. Lord NIAYNARD took the Oaths and his Seat. Earl CARLISLE rose to make a Motion to the House on a subjeCt, in which he thought both,-tite intefests of .the Country and the condua of Mini. sters were deeply implicated. As, however, that consloa'would, sooner or later, be, at all events, made the subjel of Public Inquiry, and as his MO. Rion was simple and obvious in its meaning, he did not think any man could objea to it. He should, therefore, not trouble .the House with any argu ments to enforce the ptopriety of its _adoption, but should content himself with barely reading the words of his -Motion. His Lordship then moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that he would-be graciously pleased to or der, that there be laid before that House, the dates of all Dispatchei from the Government - in this Country, to our EStablishments in India, both overland and by sea, ,relative to the communication from His Majesty e tri the Houses of Parliament, en. the Bth of March, 1803, with the.dates of the ar rivals of such Diapatches in India'. Also, that there he laid.before the House, the dates of all the Dispatches - from - the Government of 'this Country to onr Settlements inaTn'clia, both oVerland and by sea, relatiVe to the notification of 'the commencement of Hostilities, with the dates of the arrival of such Dispatches in India. Lord.HAWKESBURY could *not see on what` ground the present Motion was founded.. The Noble Mover had stated none. There were cases in which the Public e liad a right to be informed, and in which, if the conduct of- Ministers was called in question, the onus probana7, that - they had aaled properly, lay on them. Such were questions of finance, and the mode of application of Motley voted by parliament. Do every suspicion, however, which might exist in the mind of any man, or which might originate vague rumour, unconneded with any tad on which it could be grounded, such inquiries were not to •be sanalitmed. The Noble Earl had stated no reason' for adopting the present Motion, and lie could assure his Lordship and the House, that the earliest possible intimation of both the circumstances alluded to in the Motion, had been transmitted by Government to our difilrent Presidencies in India. Earl CARLISLE declared; that he had con ceived it to be beyond the ingenuity of the most in genious man in that House, to frame an objediun to the present Motion. The purport of it, - he appre hended, must be obvious to all, and of the propriety of - affirding that Huse and the Public' every possi ble information on the subjeet, their Lordships,,-he, hoped, would be satisfied, when they attended to its importance. It was not sufficient for a Minister to say, '' I assure the House, that every necessary intimation has been given.", The House and the Public were ;Joined to the best possible evasksoce of this fad, which could alone be procured by tF.e dates themselves. It 'was a rumour in very general cir culation, and he . believed generally credited, though he did not assert the truth of it, that information relative to an approaching rupture had been re ceived in India, through private channels, seventeen days sooner than by Government Dispatches. Nay, it was even stated, that Government had not sent a Special Messenger with this necessary informa , tion,' but bad sent it by a Frigate ; and that that Frigate too, was not dispatched with . this special information, but had besides the. charge of a Con_ iroy: holed These, rumours were unfourided.— He trustati Ministers could give. them a negative ; lout,-as they had existed, as they were of a serious nature, and as such deserved a solemn and serious refutal—he had apprehended, that the Noble Lord 'would rather have been satisfied that an opportu nity was afforded him of removing every doubt on this head from the public mind ; the more partial s.larly, as the truth of such rumours must have gained ground frorn what was known of the precipitate re treat of 'Admiral lasso's's Squadron from Pondi - cherry. He therefore hoped that no objedion would be made to the Motion. Lard 1-IAWKESRURY could not conceive that - vague rumour was a ground for supporting a Motion like the present. 'r lia.earliest possible intimation, both of the appearance of hostilities, and of their actual commencement, had been transmitted by this Goveimmails to all the Presidencies in liidia. Govern_ p=ent could not intimate the commencement of hos tilities before they had .actually been resolved on ; and in the common nature of things, the Dispatches sent by Government must have leached India as early as it was possible that information on that .subjed could have been received from any other quarter. - Earl SPENCER said he had corneeto the House without any expectation - of a subject of so important a name 'as the presentibeing to be agitated. He was, however, by no- means prepared to go into the tiottrineelaid down by the Noble Secretary of State, that his declaration, that every possible information hart beedgiven, 'was sufficient to superSede the ne cessity of the present Motion. It was a fad generally understood, that the French Admiral LINOis, while at anchor, within QM' Squadron, under Admiral RAINIER, Must have received information on this subject, which our Admiral did not possess. It was hardly to he accounted for on any other principle, how our Admiral should have allowed him to slip anchor, and depart in the precipitate manner in - 'which it was admitted he had 'left Pondicherry. ';his, unquestionably, gave . countenance to the Tu. 'Moors 'Willett were in circulation, and which he did 'oak think could.be removed, if the present Motion teas not agreed: to. - ic.rd HOBART could not agree •in the propriety of the present Motion.. With respect to,the infor mationewbiell Admiral RAINIER possessed, it was a faft hicit ite .himself had admitted, that, from 'the information which he_ t=ad received, he entertained gteat doubts in his own mind at the time, whether he sitould not detain Admital Earl C ltAt AR YoNsaiti,that after the admlssiqtis which had been made on this.subjea, he could;UOt figure the most distant semblance to a reason. for fusing.to 'acquiesce in the present Motion. is tad been seen and admitted that the Fleet of the Eneßly, while within the power of our Squadron, had been ailowed to escape for want of the necessary informa_ Lion to warrant our Admiral in detaining it. That. -the French Admiral ,_ in. consequence, must. have been possessed of superior information, was obvious. What would have been the consequence had the Enemy's Fieet been superior in force ? Not only our Squadron there, but all our 'possessions, mush have fallen into the hands of the Enemy. As it was, in what, situation were we placed ? In consequence of this neglett on the part of our Government, the Enemy were stronger - to the extent of this Fleet than they otherwise would have been. They were left at full liberty to annoy our trade, and to attack the mostdefenceless of our possessions, all of which, but for this piece of miscondud, would have been secure. In this situation, he could not see on what ground the present Motion could be resisted. The Noble Secretary of State (Lord HoBART) had allot'_ ed to information which Admiral RAt N r ER possessed, but he bad not said that the information came from Government. ILord HOBART explained, that that was his mean. ing. Lord IIARROLVBY declared, that on the first view of the matter he was inclined to think the Motion not sufficiently warranted. From the grounds, however, which had since been stated in support of it, he could not help giving it his decided support. The House then divided on Lord CARLISLE'S Motion. Contents 27 4 - 3 1 25 5-30 Proxies Not-Contents Proxies , - Majarity against Ministers SERVICES OF THE IRISH MILITIA. Lord HOBART moved, previous to the second reading of the Bill," that His Majesty's Message on the 'loyal and spirited offers of the Irish should he read. _ _ . His Lordship . declared, that he presumed there would be no difference of opinion in that House, with respeCt to the principle which gave rise to the present Bill, and which, carried to a further exteht, would sanction the policy of occasional interchanges . of the IVllitia of the two Countries. But that was not the question now before them. The prudence or necessity of such reciprocity was not now to be dis cussed ; but as it appeared on the face of the Bill before the House, they were called upon merely to determine, whether they would or would not enable His Majesty to avail himself of the spirited offers that had been made to him from motives of loyalty to his person, and of kindness and attachment to the welfare and interests of this part of the Empire. As he presumed there could be no difference of senti ment on that point, however there may be on others, he would no longerdetain their Lordships, but move that the Bill be read a second time. Lord BORINGDON felt hiMself under the ne. cessity of opposing the second reading of the Bill, upon many considerations; but principally two, which in his mind were decisive against the mea sure. One was, that it would tend, in some mea sure, to subvert the principles upon which the Mi litia force was originally established; and the other was, that it was withdrawing a Force, which, how ever inconsiderable in itself, was necessary for the defence of Ireland, and could afford no material ad dition to the force already collefted for the defence of Great Britain. His Lordship was no enemy to the principle, that all parts of the United Kingdom should assist each other reciprocally, but he would rather see that disposition manifested by other measures, than a mere interchange of their several Militia Forces. Ile wished really to see the principles of the Union, fairly aged upon. —lt was now four years since that 'great poli tical change had been effected, and what, he would ask, had the Government done for Ireland ? If he could argue from what had passed, when he considered the Correspondence that had passed be. tween a Noble Peer of that House (he alluded to Lord REDEsDALE and the Earl of FINGAL), and that that Noble Lard still remained in a high official situation in that Country, he was justified in enter taining some doubts of the intentions of Ministers towards ft. It Ministers approved of the.condud of that Noble Lotd, why not declare so ? If they did not, it was incumbent on them to disavow the opi nions he had promulgated, and to recall him. But this, however desirable, in point of justice or of policy, he despaired of seeing accomplished, when, he recolletted, that the great vital and essential principle upon which the present Ministers held their official situation, was opposition to the only measure that could give satisfaction or permanent tranquil lity to Ireland. The DUKE of CUMBERLAND said, that lie, would occupy. but .a very small portion of theit Lordshies' time. He rose for, the purpose of ex. pressing his approbation of the Bill, as tending. to establish that principle, which he hoped to see, with in a short time, extended much further. It Was,his anxious wish that the two Countries, which had but one common interest, should, whenever it was necessary, interchange their Militias. - Since. they were become one United Kingdorn by law, he trust ed that they would not he separate either in senti ment or prataice. He thought no more distinCtiou, in any respea whatever,, should exist between them, than between any two neighbouring Counties• of Great Britain ; and, therefore, as this measure would tend to establish that cordiality and acquaintance between them, that was so desirable in every point of view, it had his hearty concurrence. Marquis of HEADFOI?T supported the Bill, and expressed his regret, • that the great Minister who bad brought about the measure of the Union, was not at Present at the head of His 'Majesty's Councils. Earl FITZWILLI Ail? opposed it, as interfering with the principles upon Which the Militia 01-Eng= land was originally formed, and . as derogatory froM the honour of the nation, which posiessing:3B o,oo o Volunteers, 70,000 Militia, and 44 5 000 Infan tr y , with a duoProtAntion of Artillery and. Cavalry', atilt t ras tepidSented to be under the necessity of accept siofthe services of 10,000 Irish Militia. The ,Duke of AVO#FOLK,4isapproved of the pre. scr a measure, oni.the,same principk that he had op. p os it' a.similaroffer of service, from the Militia of this Country in , the year 1798 . . considered the Militia as the most constitutional, nay as the only constituttonal.Army of the Country, and he thought the-present - an . an unconstitutional mode of employing, their services. It was t one of the many had mea sures which the present - Ministry had received in a legacy from their predecessors in..office. He.could by no means agree with the Noble Marquis (HEAD , Foxr) as to the encomium pAssed on the late. Mini. ster, Mr. PITT, who had loaded the - fcingdoni with lan immense load of Debt-and Taxes, and whose return to power he should consider as the greatest I misfortune the Country could experience. The Earl. of LIMERICK supoorted the Bill, and retorted with.much force.the argument advanced by a Noble Earl, that the pradice of volunteering tend ed to countenance that must dangerous of all prin. ciples to a free Government, the principle of deli beration by armed bodies. He was sure when the Noble Lord,had made that observation, that the ex traordinary resolutions enteredinto,by a number of 'Militia Colonels at the Thatched House, in which the Noble Earl bore so conspicuous a part, did not offer themselves to his recolleCtion. He could see no difference between deliberation by CoMmanders and deliberation by Common Soldiers. The Bill had his .concurrence, because it 'would promoto that which was the earnest wish of his beast, the full political ideotity of both parts of_the . kingdom. Lord CARLETON readily admitted, that such was the.state of defence in which this part of the United Kingdom was.placed, that there did-nut exist any absolute necessity for the tranfer of 10,900 Militia from Ireland. Yet he was decidedly of opinion, that' when a voluntary offer.of service was made, like that which had 'occurred in the present instance, it should not be tejetted. It would, in fad, materially tend •to the consolidation of the Aft of Union, by shewing the mutual confidence with Which different parts of the same Empire were ani. mated. With respell to the observations which hall fallen from a Noble- Lord, on the correspondence that had passed between two. Noble Lords in Ire land, one of whom filled a most important office, he had merely to remark, that such cononcilts were warranted by the incidental mention of the corre spondence, since it was not fairly ,befere their Lord ships, and could not be made the .ground-work . of a charge. Lord Bon.tisoboti explained. • The LOR I} CHANCELLOR . felt himself pecu. flatly called upon to address a few words to their Lordships, in consequence of the allusion which had been made to the condud of a Noble -Friend of hiS in Ireland, as mentioned in the correspondence which bad been noticed. The charader of that Noble Laid, with whom it was one of the greatest plea; sures of his life to live on terms . of, the stridest„in timacy, stood as high for honour and integrity as — any other in the 'United- Kingdom ;and whatever observations the correspondence might have given rise to, he was confident that there was nothing in any of the circumstances which could in theslightest degree contribute to injure the distinguished repu. tation his Noble Friend was universally acknow. 'edged to possess. It was, he could not ayoid.say, ing, one of .the characteristics of_the times, that .a correspondence which in former instances could not, unless stolen from the pocket of dither of the Noble Lords,.have found its- way into the world, should now be made public as a matter of course. It' was also extraordinary, that a chargoshoUld be prefer red againit his Noble Friend, upon grounds which were clearly surreptitious, and .which could not, with any propriety or consistency, furnish a stibjed of censure or comment in that House, since they could not be brought forward as- the basis of a Motion for an Address to His Majesty.. He had thought it incumbent upon him, since the topic had been intro. duced, to say these few words in vindication of his Noble Friend, who, if he had erred, must have er red only from a deep and honest conviction that his exertions and advice would produce the most bene ficial effects in that Country where he had the honour to fill a very high situation under the Go vernment. As to the sentiments which had been imputed to his Noble Friend, it was Sufficient to . state, that he had been here the best ft lend to those very men whom he was now accused of persecuting ; and that in all the measures which had been adopt ed of late years for their relief and toleration, lie had himself been personally and W,aroily engaged in the passing of the different Bills, which they conceived so intimately connected with their happiness and i nterests . With regard' to the Bill before the House, he did not see it in the same objectionable point of view in which it appeared to present itself to some other Noble Lords. He should not for a moment hesitate to say, that the principle of an armed body deliberating was improper' and Uncoil, stitutional ; but it was at the same time to be un. derstood, that the power of deliberating might be occasionally exercised by , attned bodies, when - it. could alone arise from, and be regulated by, the force and urgency of peculiar and extraordinary Cir cumstances. His Lordship' having considered the operation of the Bill, as essentially connected with the safety and welfare of the two Countries, con ' eluded with saying, that it, should have his cordial support. Earl C 4RNARVON d efended the former Mi. litia Establishment, which, by late alterations, pro visionS, and ModificatiOns, had dwindled into a i;ys tem he could no longer support. He had been the zealous friend of the „Militia in a true constitutional view ; but when he considered the many embar rassments, clogs, and difficulties, which it every day experienced, he was called upon to declare that it had no longer his earnest support. • Having; reca pitulated several of the arguments which had been used witliresped to the detriments arising to the Militia .Establishment, from novel modes of ailing, and the Adoption of crude and hasty measures, he said he should vote against the Bill. Lord AUCKLAND expressed his Serprize, that, the opposition to the Bill should . chiefly originate from those: Noble Peers who had, repeatedly objected -to His Majesty's Ministers;.that they had not in 'readiness for the defence and safety of the Country.. force of a disposable nature sufficiently large. The opposition was therefore the mare ex.traortrmary , while they blamed Ministers for not having in creased the disposable force, they denied to them, :" the same breath, the power of that kind of force, b) refusing their assent to a Bill, professedly dire . etea to the accomplishment of an ohjet admitted on al l hands to be so wise and salutary. No man could deny' - the wisdom and policy of immediately wig' mentioa the disposable Focce of thia_contrya-m om particularly when he looked i -at the avretched of the Continent. . Yet out of that wretched state ,some_.hopes ,were .natt rally-excited. the nature of . tnen : or of , things, : that ;the War c alla , last for any lorsg time,- and : in 'that opinion be -Wag . justified by the atiswerS,:given,hy-she Repraientative g of the differenr.Powers _to :the Official Commoni' cation made 'to, them of _the late lying correspond• ence, and :the fabricated Plot. It was impOs sible that ' a Government . which -was• - ;-founded regicide, which : was raised arid . exalted by. 4 0 °,4 and: poison, and ,which was - supported' by itia" night murders .and assassinations, ishould long continue to be guided - , by ; hand _ stained with the blood of innocent arid rdyal "viEtims. M to the benefits likely to result from the Bill before their Lordships, there_could-he -but-one-opirtione -- ri From-their residence here, the Itish Militto acquire,improveme,nts and habits of industry, vihk: could not fail to. beprodueliVe of real advantag" when they returned- to their' own Country.; and 25' to any diminution of the Militia in Ireland, bY h a , transfer of Ten `Thousand .to England, he thonAl that could form no-ground-of opposition to the m. „; since it was well known, such 'wars the attachn' e- r i of the People.of that Country to the Noblemen a% Gentlemen, that the number would be replaced In very short time by a new levy. Lord.H.aIRRQUIBY thought the Bill objeai ell.• able, because it .went to deprive Ireland of what most wanted for her . own proteftion, a strong e 6 C I I ; ent force ;' while the principle of reciprocity , lw: t a regard -to the Set-vices of -kith Militias, -weni', l7 l , nothing in the present case, as to the disp osa im Force; for . by substituting ten 'thousand 'Men 7 e the wise numbet taken away, there was no incte as. . whatever. • The Marquis of SLIGO praised the condo& of ti . c ,. English Militia ,in Ireland, and was convinced, tha` the principle of-reciprocal service would contrihnl in co to in a co v ir e .ici r d y atH . ito e iAa n n i si i .,R n ooo e ff i w i at t hlßle d yi e u., g e:m i n e pie e old , anin.B eo. explained. improvemen t pf:osed hi .The Duke , of. MaNTROSE, as le r . enemy 5 0 0 4 . delibera mst inimical to the Bill.' -Earl WESTMORLAND - entered:at some leng t h into a variety of considerations and compariso.nst tt) ,. spewthe important .bernelits which the m e as ure ila,a" likely.to produce;in the security and welfare 01°c Empire at *large; • When he 45oikerl: - stt the-pieset Bill, which went to enable His Maj-esty to aCCq e the voluntary offers of service ma d e ,bypart of t - t. MO Militia, he confessed he c ould not separateLi,' from the Bill by which the same Militia was to coca augmented. In this connefied point *Of view it "9040:1 not be denied, that a disposable force was give"tet Government both in this Country and in lOW and he should therefore vote for the Bill. Lord DARNLEY, at considerable lengthal:l7 the Bill. ,The Earl of EG REAM:ONT said, that a- t , rt t o he had not for a considerable time had ooc a3 '- ° - s cat addres . their Lordships, yet he conceived the Plc' ac ... measure so novel, - and so objeflionable on no n f t ,iia counts, that he thought it his duty _to ma ke avowal of his disapprobation , of it. Lor;I CREN:VIILLE blamed-Ministers for. submitting, in a fair and.inanli„tritide, to the COns,t, deration of Parliament, the-principle of recipr oc, V, between the Miiit E stablishments of both Cl ot tries, if such was their intention when 0' rc countenanced the present measure. But they sto not, perhaps, aware - that the question had h et!' o f some measure already decided. By the artideofto the Union with *lda; d, it was deterrnirleat °oaf great deliberation, that the Militia Of En g anci ° t he ir that Country, should be confined in reSpea 501 s a. services, to the Countries by avhich they wer.e.ho vcrally paid. His Lordship defended, o'l 4 lll . l ig a ccustoined ability, the :meeting of the xv i . , 1 20 / Colonels at the Thatched liothe, and challenge"vo, Noble Lord to point out why, or where, ifl"sll.'erti, constitution-al for a number of Officers , all of „ I ?o f • without scarcely an piception, either Peers ossbia, liament or Members of another House, to I s* : a wl' and capes% their opinion on a subjed ; we hi* materially concerned them. His LortialljP most decided-dissent to the Bill. egsuce iii Lord If AffiKESBURY sueported the " II i a ticn a a short speech, and found fault with the ga ° d the ir e entered into by the Qificers who subscb gear, names to therh. He considered it as a eery ~, o ld a error in them, to speak as leniently .as he and ,their conduit, to have assembled in " 4 r • astO military capacity, and to h a ve pub a lished t i of their deliberations at that meeting. • rto and gl A Eirl RossNeY condemned the measure, dicared the conduft of .the Meeting a t the 'IP', House, at which lie had. the honour to b I 3 e c"' I ,.' t efr Lords HAWKESURY antiFurzwlLL'lA 0 00 by the , L t o h ß e by the Loao CHANCELLOR, Iti Lord CARNARVON rose, and contended loge& Noble Friend was.striAly. in order. The l iv ijek .being Put on, the second reading, the Hou s e" bsaetindaw.cvani,lcawl"te°,:' dog 'Contents: Peers -64 Non- C.ontents Peear,fie;s . Proxies - 5 77 P r Majority - Lord HAWICESBURY said,' at that' would not move for the second Leading of .t . 1,)!Aor Bill before their Lordship's, the Irish Mll . .t o lf 47 diat mentarion Bill, but confine himself' to mov! E . ' 6 00 1 the Bill, now read . a second time, 410140 ult. : : ; , te ti mitted for tomorrow. I ha& i° filij lie Lord GRE . NVILLE 'stated, that han g o o greater objedions to the second ,_ t •• etioo some length to,morrov. He agree pOp Lord, that it was itow too l a te to eliciocje. one now. read, .and would statethdos.:XiteheSatl2,4‘ - discussion of it.—Adjourned at-Eleve,n° IDUSE OF C01g1004.. THURSDAY! A ritu. 194 foro This day a ‘4 ll o t was to have ta ken• —li r - l a t t,'" e ll , 13 Committee to try and determine Me merits° ..~•.. i r i ( J