The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-26 00:00:00

S G tt- a • •- • trif. l", (11 1 4 , , i)p the Coart of *Proprietors, on a S:i1161:=-7-Itit-Reseution had been passed in op.. all 'the Governors of India, who had uniformly and successively expressed their confident and decided opinions in favour of granting the ne. cessary facilities to the Private 'trade from India to this Coantrartahee believed no- instance could be stated. Ofra Govermt •,:of „India differing from . this serttiteent,,Yit.,Dlnin .also ,had_ given his opi nibn i on the sarce - Sid - i; These - w ere good . authorities, ;betcruse they had thebest:oppor tUnities of- being 'well acquainted. with the sub.: jet. Yet in' defr4k6 'of all this, the East India Company-had :resisted every proposition for giving greater facilities to Private Trade.. Where - wag the reason of this conduct to be found ; must it not • be looked for in that spirit . of monopoly, by which they were invariably aatiaied ? The qualificatioteof a Proprietor to vote had been increased from fool. to r fool. ; andthe eleaion of the' Diredors . from being wholly annual had been made rotatory, six of the Di. reaors going out by rotation every year. The real fact was, he said, that the thirty Directors were self-elected ; they dilated to the Proprietors every year those six persons, whom they:chose. should be elected into the Direaion, and those six wereinvaria ably elected. Thus an Aristocracy was created, and it Was well-known an Aristocracy was, of all Govern- Ments the most tyrannical, even worse than a Demo cracy, if any thing could be worse... They had the whole pattemage . of India in their hands, and might it hi:it be fairly supposed, that, with . the exercise of that patronage; they acquiaed a great.influence in the Court of Proprietors The real reason- why the Court' of Direaors had refused to grantfacilities to pri7aie Trade, was, -lie said, because they. -wished to'upholdtheir-own exclusive privileges and power. SOrne Ostensible reasons must, however, be assigned, and`` thes . d - tin'd appeared before the. Public. Upon 186 king at' their Statement, however, it was evident they were. labouring to make the Worse appear the better reason, and . that the real basis of their afguinents," was. the danger apprehended to their -oWn . power. In the first place they star eda that, the Capital of the Company was about to be iticreased 2,000,0001. but was this any reason - why `facilities shotild not be granted to 'Private Trade ; or was it to be pretended that.this sum would'be sufficiant to answer the purposes for Which those facilities were 'asked I In' the second instance it was urged, that Capital would be taken fabm other branclies e and the Trade of the Country injured; this surely did not require an answer— there was Capital amply sufficient for this as well as - for other purposes. In the next place, much was said of-the dangers of Colonization. . Accord ing - to the present system, no one.could go to India Without ,permission -of • the - Court of Directors ; if le did, he wag immediately sent back ; nor could 'any one hold . •lands in that Country. But was it not well known that the -climate of India was so injurious to-the health offe e persons going thither from -this Country, - that they were compelled to return, if possible, after residing there a certain time. Where, then, was the danger of COloniaation The Public were lastly- told. of ./41e danger that would arise from bringing over to this Country a great nutnber of Lascars. Whatever dangers -however, that could -result from , this might -be easily obviated by a 'provision, that all Vessels coming from India should:be navigated by - British Sailors, unless in time of War, when Las cars would be a substitute, and even an advantage • in that respect, which was afforded by no other part of the Colohial Dominions of 'Britain-. Vessels might be built - in India with the greatest possible advantage, where wood was to be found -at a low price, and of a most.excelleat quality, which would be highly advantageous .to the Ship-builders here,' it - being understood, that at- the' present moment, repairing of Vessels was: much more profitable than building them. A -Peace being - - noW conc.luaed with France, it must, be obvious, .that if measures were not now taken to place the Private' Trade in the hands of British Sabjeds, the whole must - be- thrown into the hands of' France, from the -additional facility she would then possess of carry. ing - it an. He- would not, he said, trouble the 'House further upon the subject, which he consider. ed - as most important to this Country, and therefore he wished for a Committee to sift the business to the bottom. He .was convinced that if the Private Trade was thrown into the hands of Foreigners the Trade of Leadenhall-street must very materially suf. fer. The question embraced so many great and im portant objets, that he thought be should , not have done his duty as a Member of Parliament, if he had not brought the subject before the House, arid therefore he now submitted it for their conside ration. He concluded by moving, " That a Com mittee be appointed to take into consideration the Papers laid before the House in the last Session of Parliament, relative to the proceedings of the East_ India Company, with respect to the Trade between India and Europe, referred to in the said Papers." Mr. Joraes seconded the Motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that neither the worthy Baronet, nor any other Member in that House, could attach more importance to the subject now. under consideration, than himself. He was thoroughly satisfied that it involved, not only great commercial, but also great political consequences ; and, in stating his sense of the importance of the subject, he hoped it was not necessary for him to say he gave full credit to the worthy Baronet for being aa - tuated, solely, by a sense of its deep importance. 'He was aware also, that when an opinion was given, as the worthy Ba ronet had delivered his, with such good sense and temper, it could not fail to give a great effett to the arguments by which it was enforced. " That lion. - Member had entered at large into tire aubjea noar before the House, and had given 'a very accurate statement of the rise and progress of the East-India Company, in which it was not necessary for him to follow, nor was it necessary for him to apply , any observations to 'what had been said to.night ; except 'what was founded on the case' immediately, before the House, which was with reference to the great question respeaing the(Ptivate - Trade of India. pp should therefore begin with the Praeeediogi-P€..lAln a •liament in the -year: 1.793,, when, tiwi , c.giilaSurg thought proper to renew the Charter of the Bast e . India Company. The worthy Baronet had stated, that previous to that time great obstrudions were 1r 4 thrown irl.the way of,that e Ttade by the t ast-Todit Company 1)144 lie Wionid. pleaseif' to recut:le:l; that previous to' tha4 time the Private,Trade4ith' India, by the SubjedS of this Conntry; was illicit it was held to be inlet-ions to, the interests of this. Country, and could not be carried on cogsistentlY ; with,the..Chatter .of e tteEast e india Company. It was in the year 1793 that thiS Trade was recog nized, and then it wastunder certain liditatiOns, as the' , l4644se well knew._ It was.then stipulated that the I,,ast-India.Company should furnish for the Pri vate 'trade -a :.certain ntiniber of tons of shipping., Happily, it .was found, inadequate to the deMand of the Private Tr de ; .but those who framed the Bill wisely anticipated that such deficiency might be felt, and therefore lodged with the Commissioners . for the ,Affairs of:lndia a power to add :to that number, if i necessary.. The framers of that. Bill, by almost all its Provisions; indicated a knowledge of the sUbjea of which they treated, in the highest degree, and they employed:their diligence in a manner as corn. mendable as their sagacity was great, as appeared in all the Provisions they made upon that important subje'a. But in resped to the Private Trade, 'he was perfealy ready to acknowledge, that, wise as the' Provisions were,_ they had not been completely: effedual. He did, not contend, that on:the part of the Directory of the East-India Company, there had been that facility in the conduftof,that I raLie which was intended, and'even expeded' by Parlia-• inert ; . .at the same time, it must be 'matter of sa.: 05f:talon to the Hon. Member, as it was to the' House, to consider that if he 'was right in-his sup' position, that the "'rade did not receive the ties which were expeded from the . Diredory; and that, the Trade, did nevertheleSs greatly increase in 1794, and had been gradually increasing since, it would increase still mort..when those facilities were afforded it. In the years when the' shipping had been 'most abtindant froth India, the Private Trade had been the largest. He could assure the . House that on thiS subject he had no biass •or prejudice. He wished the House` to judge, from the'statemcnt Which he should` lay before it - not as opposed to, but as supplementary, but yet for the purpose of affOrding ground, as he trusted, of an opposite con chision from that which was deduced by the worthy Baronet. He should then ask a fair unbiassed opi nion of the House; and he Was sure that he did not indulge that expectation in vain. The Worthy Ba ronet had Said, that theopinions.of the Governors of India werefavourable to that which he had fortned, and had submitted to the House. He was aware that the opinion atilt Marquis of WE etse EY was favourable to that of the Hon'. Baronee.—His Noble Friend the Marquis had. certainly found the means of conveying the private Trade of India to this Country—ln consequence of an order from the Diredory that was not renewed in 1799 ; hut in t Soo it was renewed ; and now he had it in his power to state at this early period of the discussion, that the Directory had determined to affirm the Sys tem of the Marquis of V,TELLESLEY, for employing Shipping to support the private Trade from India to this Country. The Noble Marquis he had allud ed to, had proposed that all the Shipping which should be bound to return home, and now employed V. the Expedition to the Red Sea, shall he employed for the purpose of conveying the Private Trade from India to Great Britain in the year 1803. The Court of Directors had agreed to confirm that re_ commendation of the Noble Marquis; and also in 1802, they were ready to authorize their Governor to supply any deficiency in Shipping in that year. The House would therefore perceive, that no incon venience could acme, because no loss would arise, nor -any dangei threaten the Private Trade of India until theyear So+; admitting however, as he did, that provision shouldbe made for the convenience of that Trade in that year. He mentioned this, not only to spew the disposition of the DireEtory to meet the wishes of those who think, - that measures should be taken for encouraging the Private Trade of India, but also to ground a Motion with which he should con clude his Address to , the Chair, after submitting what, he hoped, would appear to the House suffi cient reason for adopting it, which Motion should be for. the Previous Question. In the first place, he .presumed, no man would deny, that it became the House to pause, at least, before it came to an absolute.;determination on such d subject as this — No injury could arise in the interiir if the House should, not go into such an Inquiry as this—Nor would the House institute such an Inquiry unless they were convinced, there were abuses which : cal,: led for immediate, and, as it were, instant remedy. The worthy P. aronet had laid great stress on the opinion of a person whose authority, on the Affairs of India in particular, must have considetahle weight in that. House. He meant the Right Hon.. Gentl eman who had been at \the head of the Board 'of Con.; trol, [Mr.' DUN DAs].--The worthy Baronet .had said, the opinion of that Right Hon. Gentleman. was entirely with him. , It was but this morning, Mr: ADDINGTON said, that he perused that opinion e the substance of which was; that the two parties who opposed each other upon that subje&, had gone to the extreme on opposite opinions ; and he had advised a middle course, and which he trusted and expefted the House would see to he the most advis able upon that, occasion : but he believed that Right Honourable Gentleman never went the full length of the opinion of the worthy Baronet. Ile said that opinions on that occasion were carried to extremes on both sides, and that, according to his senti ments upon the matter, the truth lay between them. The worthy Baronet had likewise laid considerable stress On the Constitution of the Company, and had said some things on the •eleaiOn of the three. tors-L-topies which, with the 'permission of the dlouse, he would abstain from making any observa tions upon. As to what, the worthy Baronet had said on the amount of the trade in 1793 at L'Orient, being, as he stated, between orie and two millions, --this, by the way, Mr. ADDINGTON said, he should have stated in a formei . part of his Address to the,thair, Where he,took notice, that until 1793 the Private Trade - to India by' the Subjects of this . Country was nosy observe again, that . 00)70 this i rradould not be carried' on t . by ghee objects of thi r i'ourfu'y without a violatioo .of the Miter:lor ite •East India Company. The 'Trli& "then was 81' ijied 'on byForeigners' only, and that was the reason that the Trade was so large in I the Port mentioned by the Hon. Member. The . • Ilit;rgt6t question.,_ s Ike apptehenacil it now, was this---Whether or .not: the East India Company' have hitherto given thedfacility to the carrying on of this "Trade as exped and required by Parlia ment ? Ile had atiFilty "stated, in part, hisspinion upon that point, which was, that they had not. — The nc\t question was-'---Whether or not, according to the statenient - Whieli — lre was prepared to make, and which he should• make, there Is any just expea. ettion that this facility will be given in future ? The nature of this Trade could not huty be very' well understOod by the House. It was carried on, not by a Capital from this Country, but by a Capital cleated by the surplus of the annual profits o the Civil and Military Servants of this Country,, a d it was advisable that *the Trade of such a Capital should he enjoyed- by `those \silo were to- return into this Country, this Canital was either vested in the Company's Treasury; for 7 which Bills of a long date 'were given, or in the purchase of certain articles sent home, 7 which constituted - what was called the Private Trade,• to-which this debate referred. The :amount of this surplus had been .considerably in creasing, and the anineitt of= the application of :others; on behalf of'Britisi Merchants, had also ere - aged' Very, 'Considefably of late: • The articles purchased by the surplus lie thus alluded to, applied to the whole of the produce of India' Manufaaure, which persons, licerised by the East India Company, hut no-others, were empowered to purchase.. All the surplus of:the fine goods, and the whole of the coarse goods, as toffee, Indigo, Sugar, were within the range of purchase. of those who had license from,. the Company, *after their Own ships were loaded, and such were the Subjeas of the Private Trade. —Goods of the finer texture; and -Salt Petre, they kept to their own Trade.. In all the rest, subject to this condition, the Private . Trader was allowed to deal eso that the '.worthy Baronet was under -a mistake, if he thought that advantages were giVen,, to Foreigners which were denied to British SUbjeas in this respea. The Agents employed by the British Traders licensed by theCoMpanY,.could purchase every 'article. - of goods that a Foreigner cpuld'ourchese. He knesseof dif ferent e between -a Foreigner and those Agents, ex cept this,, that the Foreigner was not obliged to be licensed, but the Agent was obliged to be licensed. Foreigners .had no powers to purchase any, attiele whsk!'h these. British Agents could not pUrchase. If they Were, he-was not aware what these :articles %tierc e He did not see, therefore, that any rearad vantage was given to a Foreigner which . was not given also to the British Subject, on the Private Trade of India, The Hon. Member stated, and he stated truly, that it was an. objea of immense con - seqnence to pti.vide means for procuring a sufficient supply for the commercial and the Royal Navy of this Country; -and that Hon. Member conceived, that this could only be . clone by the adoption of the ideas which had been expressed by those who fa voured the opinion entertained by him. Fre could only state, ,but,he did it: with ,infinite satisfaction, that the East India Company .had assured-Ministers, that with respect to the Royal Navy,, they wished to give _every facility that was possible, and, even assistance to ,supporY that national objeet, by build ing Ships in India, and by every mode that can fur ther that great objea, in the way that the best friends of this Country 'Could desire ; by increasing ship-building there and dirrrinishiog it'berq as much as possible, according - as the price of timber, might enable theme to do so so that they, were to be go verned by 'the price of timber, which, had risen in this Country certainly to an enormous price., 'They had bound themselves, to freight. Ships from India .for this purpose as much as could be done upon these principles. It was•upon this part of the suhjea .that opinions appeared to hitn to have , been car- .ried to extremes His Noble Friend; the Mar.' Buis of WELLESLEY, and the ,worthy Baronet, were of opinion, that India -built Ships ' were alone to be employed for this purpose, and- the Direaory said that- British-built ships were to be exclusively employed, for this purpose.s—The Report alluded to, and so often commented upon, by the Worthy Baronet Stated, that the India Shipping can not be resorted to without disadvantage, and by that Report it was held forth as if India built Ships ought to be wholly excluded--He had however, the pleasure to obserVe; that the Direaory, after look ing at , this subjeet, and considering it attentively,, had agreed 'to bind themselves to' provide for the purposes of - the Private Trade Ships built either in India or, this Country, according to the terms which 'should be found roost 'advantageous, and that the preference shall he given to India or British, accord ing to the price. There was , one circumstance cloAely connected with the consideration of this queAtinn, to which the Hon. Member had alluded, butnot in the way he should have supposed ; when he was describing the d ifference be tween Peace and War, he did not- state, as it appeared to him necessary to 'state, the difference which must arise now from what we had felt fUr the hist nine 'years on account of Freight, - for that was Much -greater-in War - than Peace.. The Hon. Member had made no reference; to this great difference!which must !materially afßef this Private Trade of India, as well as every othei Trade ; and this among others, '.was a ,strong reae son for not hastily adoptiog the Motion In* before, the House._ lie wished the House to try the expe riment, of what effect Peace may produce under the undertaking of the Direaors, suchaS he had'stated it, for there would be an interval of three years, with means the most ample to supply our wants, and even to gratify our wishes, as well as to afford an opportunity of seeing, :what will be the effea of the arrangement of the Marquis of WErsoEstet - V, which the Direaory were ready to 'agree .to.:• He - should he extremely sorry to appear insensible to the importance of the Private Trade of India —He certainly was not so : It was unquestion_ ably a great source of encouragement to our Ma nufaaures here, as well as a great inducement to the Inhabitants of India to exert theMselves in their manufactures in the articles in that part of the world which are the objects of taste and demand here. He was fully aware, likewise, that this was a Trade carried on with great advantage, e and the least risks; did' not require a large Capital, and that it had advantages which made it peCuliarlyllesim. ble that it should be- kept- in- the- hands of our Traders and Merchants. He felt, likewise, it was favourable to an idea that had been thrown out by ~~ ~ .....~_, _z_._.... an Hon. Friend of his, and to borrow his language' h " it would make London the Emporium of the IT 1% dian Trade." He was convinced, that by the facilt ties which the East India Company were. to affor 3 it to it, London would become almost exclusively the i, mart of our Indian Commerce. He was unwilliogi h he said, to enter minutely into the comments of the worthy Baronet, on the Report of Mr. GRANT on' li this subjed. Some of these comments were perfeall a proper. That part of the Report which related tO c the Lascars, was open - to the observations and coin' ments which had been made upon it. -That theYh p Shothld come in aid of us at certain times, Llod ii certain circumstances, was -not to be denied ; but it was hardly necessary to .say, that where Brit ish t Seamen oan be found, none other should be emplOY' v ed ; neither Lascars nor any Seamen of any CounCountry`l should-be employed otherwise than . as suppleme nta l z to British • Seamen ; •for• while they could he ha' l acne other should be employed, was a clear po iort r and such* as 'could not be disputed. Ind eed, : ) he thought the Report. of Mr. ,G,RAxT upon thig j : matter: to be the most extraordinary he eve ; read- of, -- and .perfealy -indefensible. With regar d ; to Colonization he - cottld ' - hot say the same th in g , 1 for he thought tlhithni - Scliief might arise from Oil 'if it took place.; he did not say that we shoul d .! e suffer from it . what another Country had ,suffered; but upon. the best view he had been enabled to take of this matter, he was fully convinced . that , co; , co,uragement should be given to those who a pplied their capital and talents in India to return , htrtet and finally to make their' establishments here, -ai'' not that they should haVe any inducement to fool' I hereditary establishments in India—Upon this sik, .v . zi ATheiica; thoughThot parallel'in circumstance + Tight yet afford vs an useful lesson. It did no': appear to him that the worthy Baronet had laid ad, ground; that could be deemed sufficient, to call 0 5. , a Parliamentary interference upon this subjeet, anu therefore he could not assent to the Motion 00 before the House--If the worthy Baronet had 1440; ground for Parliamentary interference, .he cot assure that Hon. Member there was nothing in ii" mind that could prevent him from giving the gl' i tion his cordial support.—Till, this disposition h ag manifested itself on'the -part of the East Inal s 4 , Company, he felt a "strong biass in favour of a AY. tion like the present, to induce the House to interferi in this snbjeCt, with a view to compel, he would n 4 Say, but to induce the East India Company to elte'' cute, in its true spirit, the Aa of 1793, relative to. , the Private Trade of India ; he thought the %% 71 ° Matter hinged there:—lf the East India ComP3.nfro;: from any, cause, however weighty in the tili of the U.reCiors, for instance, a sense of dut)' should have determined to, withhold those furl, 1 lities to the Private Trade' of India, he thought ne' cessary for its encouragement, which it was the ja; tention of Parliament to cherish, and indeed expeO e ' to becarried into effeCt ; he sl'sculd have voted f or this Motion, but seeing it was their disposition 0" lend all the aid in their power, and tearing the el' t feet of a change, the extent of which he could o° foresee, leading possibly to arrangements which nol body could control : and being aware that' no in! o chief could arise froth delaying, at least, sticii. , proposition as ttlat_ which was-stated by the Wrn'tl l i Baronet., he had determined on the course he 0 nOw pursuing. He did not like to resist the 1‘4 6 , 1 lion by a..direa, negative, but he, thought it .0, duty ita move upon it the Previous Ouestion. . i1ir,391/NSTON:E said, is was, impossible for arli Gentleman .who felt the importance of this que sti l not to feel also considerable satisfaCtion at what bj Hien ,frorn the "Right 1i0r.., the CHANCELLOR , .the, ExcHEQUEIt. , He had admitted.the import adu el of the Trade, and lie had been pleased to' say , th e, arrangements had been made upon the Plan of .0 i quis 'WELLESLEY, that they were to - be adopter, and that they were to be continued for three ye 3r 4 Now, without venturing to speak for his r ciatt, ' (Sir W. Pt; LTENEY) he believed, that if this disr' o t tion had been known, which the House was a;suredo, by the Rt. Hon. Gentleman, this Motion would !,t have been brought forward ; for all that was dear I>a was, that the Plan- of the Noble Marquis shou o 0 , tried. It was-, certainly, a thing that was ab s a lutely called for. If, for three years, any plat' 'a tried that was preferable to this,.-or any plane d that it might be seen which was best, all ti l ia concerned in thii business would be compleatly t tisfied. Nothing was asked, or desired, but t o f j° o this plan of the ,Noble Marquis to the test; : was there any such disposition manifested on the i of the East India Company, until it was annoo ;I. to night by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQII S /f O, Certainly none, and therefore it was necessary' this subjea should have been brought on and dise o ', ed in -the House._ He saspeded, however, that in particular the Right Hon: Gentleman was nor' 'b • roughly aware of the nature of the concessioo' l p was understood. to be made. It was statea , ' e , permission should be granted to the Ships that "'l ll gone to Egypt with the •Arh,v,, to come home ing: the-season. of a soz and 1803, and that tb Ships-will-be sufficient to bring home all the'g°o that will be ready to be shipped in India for dl Private . 1 rade. , He doubted this, for lie thhoiid thas the whole extent of the tonnage of the 51) sent to the Red Sea was 40,000----one.half of o' i ' t were returned immediately - to India, and of t he ) inaining half, a great many would put bachhd others would be discharged from the service, w) were either returned; or were about to return , I therefore would come hothe in the season of i So' e, and the Jemaining Ships would not be found s , dent tO bring home froth India the quantity of g' : desired: Ho aiever, as this permission was to co ilr ! e for three years,.if these Ships should not be s uffio o such a quantity of tonnage vv'ouid be allowed to '4 home• as should be requisite for the Trade asc ot o, to the plan of Marquis WELLESLEY. If this, ,o not the idea olthe Right Hon. Gentlemia, he si be glad ,to be ihformed in that particulatl wished to know w:l,2iher it was the intentioil)ca; was found that Ships gone -to the Red Sea a' i 5 sufficient to bring hOme- the -goods of individd'ia Indiauph as they' desired to send, they w eice o mitred to send them home' in other Ships ? Mr.AIMING - roN - .Said,' ' lie unders to° 'o. Hon. Qentletnan was desi rous of receiNing ariisjgr -now to this question, and -therefore he sho ul ice it.—He stated that for i Soa provision , V s 3 made by the_ Marquis of WELLESLEY) 3°- more `!at Mr. " t4 t--To l' kt Mr. Du er, an o , I tention a Ze,rnan. I ,7,"led, in the Ex c 11sot ) , w T rade of ] ;, ss irled. re Sta tement dta tement , I • e • same fi in:1111 l'onsiderab bbserved, Voreigr "er !se ci!ec