The Sun. — London, England, 1804-06-09 00:00:00

sure tvould, in all probability, turn out a rrtial lii ode rating men, and very tew, after all, would procured. An Hon. Gentleman had said, on a former occasion, that this was nearly the same plan as that for raising men by quotas, which was once put in praaice. He understood that the tenth part of the men proposed was not raised by that plan and one might judge from this tat`}, of the success which this plan was likely to meet with. The men that were raised by those means were, besides, the . scum of the population, anti perhaps the cause of the Mutiny in the Fleet. He would wish to enter more at length into the subjea, bui he would leave if, for the present, to others who were more able to trace th: tnea;ure through all the consequences that it was likely to produce.—But the design was to procure a disposable Force, and the question was, s }lecher this was likely to answer the purpose of augmenting our disposable Force in any very mate rial degree ? The measure of inlisting only for a term of years, instead of for life, might give facility to our Recruiting, which it was IA ell worth while to attend to. Another plan, which in all human probability would be attended with a great deal of beilefit, would be to render the West India Service a particular branch. This would certainly remove a great impediment to the Recruiting Service. He would not longer trespass on the time of the House ; but he would oppose the measure n ow b e f ore the House, as he thought it perfealy inadequate to its objek9-. _ . . Sir ROBERT BUXTON expressed his surprize That the Right Hun. Q6oleman should have consi dered the Pian now pLoposed for raisiflg men as a partial tax upon landed property, when it went rather to relieve it from the burden imposed by the Army of Reserve Act. lle had assimilated this measure to the Quota System, but there really ap peared to him to be scarcely a single feature of re semblance between them. .Tloit went to throw our expence Upon the Parishes; this threw it upon the Country, which ought always to bear the burden of raising men. It was of great benefit in another point of view : it went to put a stop to the ballot, which was the most unjust and oppressive mode of raising men that could well be conceived, as it laid a most 'burthensome charge on the Poor. He him. self had been a great deal employed in enforcing ballots, and knew the misery that was often attend_ ant upon it. He could not but rejoice, therefore, at any prospect of their alleviation. There were clauses here, no doubt, that would require amend_ menr. To these he would speak in the Committee ; but in the mean time the principle of the measure had his warmest approbation. Mr. YORKE could 'hot give his support to this measure, and he was sorry that he could nor, for His Majesty had been a gracious master to him, and it would be his wish, at all times, to support his Government, if he could do so in consistency with his public duty ; but while lie maintained a consist eocy with the sentiments which he had ()Itch on former occasions delivered in that House, he could not agree in the propriety of the Plan now under consideration. It had been his fottune to hear many debates on this tubjeet, or subjeCts similar to it, but he had not heard the last statement of the Plan which was given, and therefore it was possible that his objeCtions might sometimes be misapplied. There were parts of this measure to which he as sented, and parts to which he felt himself bound to obj , •et. Having turned his attention a good deal to the subject of the Military System of this Coun try, he thought that it required alteration; he thought that the plan for enlisting for a term of years was a good one. This was the praCtice in other countries ; but it ought to he considered that this Country was totally different in its institutions from those countries ; and it did not follow, because a system answered well there that it would therefore answer well here. He thought also that the Colo nial Plan for rendering the West India Service a particular one, was good ; but, however, till such a plan was established, he did not think that men could be raised in sufficient numbers voluntarily.— In all countries there was a sort of conscription; but in no country were men raised in sufficient numbers by voluntary service. He was, therefore, friendly in a great measure, to the principle of the Bill. But it was intended as a permanent measure, and• here he could not agree to it. He was friendly to the principle of the Army of Reserve, and there fore his objeCtions did not lie there. His objec tions to this measure were these : Ist, He objected to the amount of men to be raised ; zd, he objeCl ed to the manner of raising them ; and 3d, he ob jeCted to the time when the measure was brought forward. He was glad, from what had passed, that lie could conclude that we were in a tolerable de.. gree of security, as it was admitted that this was to be considered as a permanent system, rather than any plan to answer the exigencies of the moment ; f or , reading this Bill, undoubtedly it could be consi dered in no other point of view than as a permanent system ; he was, he said, exceedingly glad that it was now found that we could discuss any plan of this sort without apprehension of immediate danger. Now, as to the numbers, these were greater t h a n could be obtained without endangering the Re. cruiting Service ; it was proposed to reduce the Militia to their ancient establishment, forty thou sand for England, and eight for Scotland. The Supplementary, which were twenty thousand for England, and four thousand for Scotland, were to be added to the Army of Reserve. But he thought that the demands by these Bills were greater titan what the Country could supply. It was on this account that he had purposed to suspend the Army of Reserve ACt, because the Regular Forces were de liCient, and especially the Marines, and we ought not to loso.sight of this very material part of our Force. He had nu objeCtiOn' to the gradual redaEtion of the Militia, as the number of men were more than the Country cotati supply -; but he did objed to throwing these men ir,Q the Army of Reserve,as that wa3 only pursuing the Same line of condua, and taking the same number . o f men from the Country. He consi dered the obtai n ing of these. men as impossible, as theCtimpiernent i:oulti not be filled up within ten thopsand of the number which had been before de.. maticied In the second place, he objeded to the mode in Which' these men were to .be raised. It apfraied 40 him that the relaxation in .the ballot rer:dr.red the measure inefficient and nugatory. An Baronet had said, that this was not a tax upon the landed property, but it seemed to him that the only efficient part of the whole was that which w ent to establish the system of fines ( cr ; fs o f Hear). It was said that this treasure did not resemble the Quota Plan : it appeared to him that the one was twin_brother to the other. The Hon. Gentleman who had referred to it on the opposite Bench (Mr. CALCR AFT), had said, that the tenth part of the men required had not been raised by it. 'The Hon. Gentleman had only, if he understood him right, referred to the Army, and certainly so far he was correct in his statement, for not more than 4 0 0 men were taken into the Service, who were all now at Malta, in the 61st Regiment ; and there was this peculiar circumstance attending them, that they had enlisted only for the War, or so long after as till they returned to Great Britain ; they wet; however, kept at .Malta, and consequently were still in the service. It was then said that the bal. lot was to be stopped. This was precisely one of the reasons why lie so strongly objected to the mea sure. He would not take upon him to say what was the best possible means of augmenting our Mi. litary Force in a proper manner, and to a proper number ; hut he would undertake to say, that it. was absolutely necessary that there shouid be some degree of compulsion, such as prevailed in raising . the Militia. That this was a good system, we had the best proof, in the circumstance that our defence had been secured by the Militia, and that we were now an Independent Nation ; it would be dan gerous to set this principle aside, and he ventured to say, that the Ministry would be disappointed in their expedations from the present measure. He exhorted the House nor to put an end to the ballot, as it was the only mode in which the numbers of men requisite could be ohtained. In the third place, he objected to the time in which this measure was proposed. It was admitted, that the great object was to augment the Regular Infantry, as the secu rity of the Country was in a great measure provided for, because it 5 or 600,00c0 men were not capable of defend!,ig it, it was absolutely indefensible. Now, there was a plan in contemplation for aug. menting the Regular Infantry : Several battalions were to be raised in England, and several new re giments in Scotland and Ireland. That plan appear ed to be given up ; for it was impossible that these men could he raised, except on the supposition that the Army of Reserve was laid aside. This was the reason that the late Ministry had agreed to suspend the Army of Reserve At for a time, to try what could be done with the proposed Plan. It it suc ceeded, all was well ; if not, then still we had the Army of Reserve, which was a good species of Force, though not equal to the Troops of the Line. He contended, that very little was to be expeded from the Recruiting by the Parish Officers ; and it was besides an improper mode, for it was turning them, though he did not wish to use harsh expres sions, into crimps, and that too the worst of crimps. He was convinced this Plan would not answer, and he should be sorry it should go on, and therefore he would wish that it should stand over to the next I Session. Mr. STURGES BOURNE replied with great strength and ability to the arguments that were ad duced against the. measure by several Gentlemen, and principally by the last speaker. He had con fessed that some addition was necessary to the Forea of the Country ; but the Right Hon Gentleman near him (Mr. ADDINGTON) had said, that no addition was requisite. The Right Hon. Gentleman had denied that he said so, but certainly he had under stood him to say so, and it Was in the recollection of the House whether they had not understood him so also—(Laud cries of " Hear I Hear !") The same Right lion. Gentleman had also said, that this measure was nugatory or oppressive, though the Gentleman who spoke last had not certainly gone so far, and therefore, if there was any thing objec tionable in that assertion, he was not to be included. in it. He had, however, commenced by saying, that some instantaneous alteration was ne cessary in the military system of this Country. This was a confession that some measure was still necessary to complete the Defence of the Country. It was ne. ccssary to increase the disposable Force of the Coun try, and this was the grand objea which the present measure was intended to accomplish. He al,o agreed in the propriety of reducing the Militia; and in this he completely differed from the Right Hon. Gentleman near him. It was impossible that the Militia could be maintained at present in the same state in which it was once intended to he. It was very desirable that our Force should be as dispos abe as possible ;no doubt but it was But how was this to he attained ? It was desirable that the ser. vices of the Irish and English Militia should for this purpose be reciprocal. This, however, was found to be impossible at present. Well, then, what was to be done in order to remedy this incon venience as much as possible ? Why, was it not the best plan to throw the men into the Army of Re serve, and thus render the- Force in some measure disposable, which would otherwise be locked up in the Militia ? The Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. Yolucc) then proceeded to the means of raising these men, and observed, that this was a heavy burden upon the Landed Property, and it was on this ac, count that the Right lion. Gentleman near him (Mr'. ADD NGTON) said that this measure was oppres sive. Now it was impossible that any one could be lieve that this measure was more oppressive than the ballot, which went to impose a heavy fine on all the classes of the ,community, and force upon the lower uasses. He would put it to the consideration of the House which was the worst case :—in the one it fell upon individuals; in the other upon the parish, or rather upon the State. He would then ask again), which of the two was most oppressive ? The Right Hon. Gentleman himself seemed to ad- mit that this was the milder measure of the two; but then he observed that his Plan was only tempo rary, and that this was permanent. This was, how ever, a sorry objeetion; for that was no doubt in. tended to be permanent as well as this which was now proposed. On What authority the Honourable Gentleman or► the other side had asserted that not • more than a tenth part of the numbers required had been produced by the Quota Bill, he knew not.— There were no documents, as far as he knew, • rela tive to the Quota for the Army, but there were authentic do&ntents relative to the Quota for- the N a vy; and from tbese it appeared, that uut.of 6000, Soon were raised fit. for service. But there was this ditference between the two cases : there the bur_ den fell upon the Parish ; here it fell upon the State. As to the expressions of the Hon. Gentleman oppo. site (Mr. CALCKAFT), he was surprized how they could be used to people in this Country. What he called scum lie knew not, but one thing was certain, that if the men raised by the Quota were the occa sion of the Mutiny, it was not because the lowest of the people had been engaged, but because the bounty was so excessive that it reached some of the middling classes, and hence sprung the mischief. Due merit was very conspicuous in this Bill, and that was, that it fixed a limit to the bounty, and ex tended the tax equally over all.—lf this Bill should not turn out so efficacious as might reasonably be .expeCted, still it threw no obstacle in the way of general Recruiting. Here a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.Wl reossAm) would certainly agree with him in the superiority of this measure, as it did not oppose the general Recruiting, which he wished to promote, byßecruiting for a limited time, instead of for life. The good effeft of this latter Plan might be considerable, but still it was not safe to rely upon it. It was to be considered, t h at t h e Army of Reserve, wi t h all the advantages of this Plan, had not been so speedily recruited as might have been expeCted; and how then could it be hoped that the Regulars would he recruited.by these means so quickly as to render any other means . of supplying our Force unnecessary ? The Right Hun. Gentleman (Mr. YORKE) thought that it was an objeCtion to this measure, that it was designed to be permanent. He, however, thought, that this was one of its highest recommendations. As to the difficulty of adding to our Regulars from the Army of Reserve, experience was the best rest, and this authorized the most sanguine expeClations, for it was well known what numbers had enlisted from the Army of Reserve during the short time it had been established. Upon the whole, he thought this • the -best measure that had been ever proposed on this subject. It opposed no check to the Recruiting for the Line.; it destroyed the clashing Bounties ; it removed the burthen from the individuals to the parishes, or rather to the State, and rendered it the interest of the parish to find men instead of provid ing Substitutes fu r those who had wives and chil dren, or paying a fine, from a dread that these might fall upon their hands. For these reasons he gave his warmest support to the measure. Mr. BASTARD disapproved of the present Bill on many grounds : it did not profess to.have I•r its ohjeCt so much to raise a large body of men for an immediate exigency, but was brought forward as a permanent measure, for permanently keeping up a large standing army. This was a measure so con trary to all the old Constitutional Principles of our Ancestors, that he could by no means approve of it : he had been educated in the opinion, and he still. retained it, that large standing Armies, at a time of Peace i are incompatible with the liberties of - a Nation, and that such ought not to be the system of a free Country ; he, therefore, much preferred the mode of form by which this Country had been hi. therto defended, and did not expect, even that this Bill would be able to raise any additional soldiers. The number called for under the Army of Reserve. Act was more than the Countries had been found able hitherto to furnish, notwithstanding every ex_. ertion had been made. He thought, upon the whole, that the last AdminiStration had gone on quietly and unostentatiously in adopting measures sufficient for the security of 'the Country ; and he did not know how the majority of the present Ca. hinet, who were also the majority of the last Cabi neck could now condemn their former • measures, unless, like the French. surgeon, who supposed the transfusion of young blood would make an old ani mal young again, they should now suppose that the accession of a few men of considerable talents, al tered completely the Cabinet. Mr. BANKS was surprized to hear this measure opposed as unconstitutional, for it was clear that the same Legislature who created such a force, could at pleasure reduce it, or, if it was necessary, abolish it. No plan could be entirely free from objections. The Hon. Gentleman had, however, appeared to take grounds of objections that were not altogether consistent ; at one time he represented the Bill as likely to be inefficient; at another time he is alarm_ ed, for fear such a Force may be raised as would be dangerous to the liberties of the Country. The ob jection, however, of the difficulties of raising the men was more serious. He certainly believed the power of the Country to furnish recruits, for a very considerable Force, was much more limited than was generally supposed. He did not think the most vigorous system of ballot which could be adopted, without being revolting to the feel. ings of every one, would be sufficient to furnish a very considerable addition to the Army, and in every free Government it was absolutely. ne cessary to consult the feelings and the sense of the People. The People at large would nor much objet to any Plan, however vigorous, that was stated to he necessary for the internal defene, and security of the Country ; but when it was stated to be for foreign objeds, it might be felt very dif ferently. He thought, however, that this Bill was pretty free from any weighty objections ; the increasing of the Army of Reserve would serve the purose in a manner less evident ; it would imme. diateiy render a great body of the Regular Army disposable, and might ultimately render the whole of them, amounting to 74,000, 'completely so. 'Phis was the principle upon which ihe late Ministers begin their Plan, by prowsing the transfer of the Irish Militia to England, fur the purpose of li berating an equal nuinber of the Regular Army. As to the comparison between this and the Bill in 1795, for compelling the parishes to furnish their quo a, he could not see much similarity between them ; then it was the parish which was bound to furnish the men, at ~tbeir. own expence ; but here it was the Nation: that, was to pay the expences, and parishes were only called upon for what every body oq es to their Country in critical times, their exertions :.besides, the p radical inefficiency of the Quota Bill of 1795, might have been from want of proper inspection ; this in the present case might he renvdied. After considering the Bill in various lights, both a 3 to its probable efilo, and the advantages •immediately resol.ting from getting rid t of the ,he c onc h h i c a b y exp resstng — ► -5 ‘• probatio, of it. n Mr. ATKINS IF - a? 'GUT wished the pr ese- t to be judged of rathe r by irs own me rits 1 , 3 , comparing th e s y stem c f t h e prese nt Adrni nis y r e r y Lion with. that of their predecessor.... wgi doubtful o f th e ex p e di ency or po li c y of the s ot though he approved. o f many parts of ; he "' l ' ll like to see addi t i ona l b ur d ens on Parish O fficer who. mo s t of t h em serve d w i t h out any remunerali°onst : and were intended by the Constitution mereiY.too,,, gulate points of internal policy ; he t hought Ir ► too much t o t h row t hi s .additional burden on the! which would, in fan, charge their to Rectuitrel'r Serjeants, or even to crimps ; there W ,5 ' 'll°t l l s , part of the system which he disapproved of, tart e r, the raising men for a limited service, with an i n , tention and a hope of geting them afterwards to e , c , list . loran unlimited service ; he thought this Pr llit tice not perfedly fair, as it was well known. l ' ce soldiers once enlisted, are under such an influe n i ? that this second enlisting was not always en tire voluntary. Mr. ELLISON wished also to abstain froth C , 0 , r11 1 ,3 parison between the present Administration go late one. As to the Arnie of Reserve Bill, ► a° ° ?or • he considered it, as he was sure it was S tine µ , n; felt, very oppressive to individuals, yet the re •ir a reason fbr it ; the Country appeared to danger, and it must be saved at all e verts ;i 1 set in the present c ase , no suc h urgent neces'iLnecessity'up; it is merely a m e asure brought forwar d l z 0• ly to have a permanent eff,%q in making " r !at Army more dis7osable, by increasing or '...i.'llloea ing the Army of Reserve. Ai a p e r s ' ‘ 1, , , to sure, then, h e c once i ve d i t a l so oppressi\l e , ) , ' ,•erl; the Parishes, and particularly to the Parish to L he therefore disapproved of it as a permane nt sure. 130,1 • ColoNel MITFORD a l s o disapprove," of the - on nearly the same ground as Mr. BATA taken ; he tho ug h t t h at l arge standing Armies always been, and must ever be, theruin free Stare, not t o ment i on the Many was ind, exariapies:: which theage of Ancient History c should on ly p r)°w state the-exatere• that Fray; held o ut t o them. A few year's ago there w some millio ns o f men i n that c ,uotry, 1_ perhaps a mistaken zeal ed by 21.1 ardent, thou g h for Libe rty , as ever , n y Nation was aroiafer` by.`They were r ea dy to fi ght an to die Liberty-, and yet what has been the " cci cousequ.. ,„ in the course of a ft:short regular w years; the regu ft o rartn of a large stAntiinr-Arany, ler; kille d soirit of liberty, and those millions wh o w ere ar rn b , for its defence, are now kept in die mOst.ahje° Jeaion by z or 300,000 of Regular Suidi e , r ip This was an example which this Country "'"" I i cioa well to consider with attentinn. Our ConO tilt ti t was altogether different front that 'of the.Colitin i, "4 o , • Nations, and he wished much Ministers woul"'corr• ploy tbeir great talents in improvbig die System, which, in this Country, was most Pf o ur ful, when most consonant to t h e f re e princip les° Civil Constitution. I Bill, Sir JOHN WROTTESIT s upported ' . tl'e He • ' eonceived Gendetnen were mistaken, wh" vet e posed.that this • Psill imposed any Ad d Of se theory duty on Parish Office's. Whatever was . the , ce, of the Constitution in this respen, yet n ; i P re rae ,, e ri - for ave thCalway last 4 in o or 50 years, the P h s terfered with respea to the Mll e As to the increase of the Regular Li e • 0 ;1 1 0 • ceived it was a thing universally wished t"" could say that an occa s ion might not occur , s to " t he would be of the utmost possible advantag e • Country, both now, and for its future a" a manent security, that we should have a lafg e r e nu p posable Force ? He did not allow that the"";haf. try was exhaused of Recruits ; he thotie t every year ought to furni - s - h its supply men, enlisted, as most of them were, itnilleir‘Je. ly• after serving their apprenticeship to sonl e : o ' the 'The Honourable Member then went fully Bill, which he supported with considerable 11,0",ohe Mr. FULLED, after very shortly spealting.ht-on-' Bill in question, alluded to an expression (ais..gurol derstood it) of Mr. YORKE, of a p a rty b' iv i - neve r ed out the Administration ; for his par t y hav e wished to turn out the Hon. Gerstleman, b u ";,rn•li t his exertions under the direaion of a 111 3 n s „ a ritrf' conceived to pos sess the first talents in tile -,,iotitre (Mr. PITT) ; he did not wish ,e for a i d ) 00 system either ; wished to see associated t";,iertil Right lion. Gentleman, Mr. Fox, wbc'(loini' were also transcendant. Under such a" bee" stration, he hoped th a t t h e W a r would hay " o r conduaed with "the greatest possible suceeose'koetsf Peace made on the most honourable tern' s ' ere ign 01. that in the mag nan i mous m i n d o f the Sot , i , er e " 15 this Country, next to personal courage, 50 E1 or-c -m) virtue in ;re prominent than a gene r , ,s„,ition o '. giving disposition ; lie k n e w t hat a':/ P 7, the Lilo/arch, (a loud cry' Ch air " • J to the lon • On which the Speaker i' appealed bey' s 3 -,e co n e w on wh et ! I r t peL :Cr Dr ci" ll' 1 0°1 • v ratrug from' the question the n, „ t ivee. l ' the Hon. Member, I am f or a Coalition v", those Gentlemen; °and what is more than Ind of 1. 1 1 e •, nion, say, I convinced that the opini'';', r , Public is 'the same way. (The Hon. Vlem,ue,o3 l i r a . several times called to order, for digressiog 1,e 3 , question before the llci us e, b regularly ret 0( 01' 2 )" o se, t the principle which be•lwished to impress 0 1,, llouse, in such a manner as occasioned c onside, laughter). oulr Mr. DENT reminded the House, that this W 35 , 1 0 a question for the second reading of the J. sc al not whether they should agree to the measure' t) i o to only, whether they would entertain it,-and g 5 1,11, , r a Committee, in s' hint stage it might be ion , cio g —He charged the late Administra tion w ith 1 1 f „r. brought lbrward a measure they html a bendon!' which this was a suitvite :--he t hought it fa , 'e ,t time to bee. another Adannlstr.tt ion to blil f a t el ward treasures mf)re teaLc al , !e.. then 0 0 0 , to observe, that he had it said by 311 , f f Cv...nrlemm l ee ? to.niee, • yid 013 Je speech-but it ri,q t ie ! fe ( J r .. ail extra.nrdinary spceel in t I . :,.e- ---111"" . . ner,d was sent Int to cwile oCc ,, ecanolaisoi tI infitter,e, tee! le), ,, es of in,i're'' j t it boa I want to kr,ew v.e;hz ,- the- t n, 1,411 • ae only towc !kat :.elloh•; an ir,i,Tenderq FarliJilleta, atii ~v62:1,,:r die Member to: ~I