The Sun. — London, England, 1822-04-04 00:00:00

devree a reineelee for them; but. because. Uinieters did not, Mt their way clearly before them, for the purpose of amusing! the Agriculturists, and in the mean time enabling Ministers to co on with the public business of the-seesionn The Committee lead been/ altogether about sift week's engaged in considering the eubject Which - bad been referred to them, ;and the result of their &liberation was contained-in the report which had been, 'artnight up, Now, he would ask the, House what benefit could result to the suffering agriculturist from anymeasure contained in that report ? Would it not have been the fairer plan, if, MiniSters, at the commencement of the session, had said to the. hgriculturiets, " Hampered with a load of debt almost beyond endurance,and a mass of taxation, we are unable to afferd you any relief ; but we' will not send your petitions to a Committee, the appointment of which will only divert the attention of the klouse from a full consideration of -the subjeet." In •lookin at the report, he f g ound, that the only subject which had occu .Died the attention of the Committee was the mode of raising the - priCe of corn in the couptry. • If the •House had been told before the Conimittee had lAen appointed, that the only gee's rion which it would take into consideration would be in what way prices might be enhanced, he believed the House would' never have consented to its appointment. The report, besides, was remarkable for many omissions. He had examined it - carefully, and, in .no part could he find it statedhow far the distresses of the country were to be attributed to one cause or _to another. - In one paragraph -the Committee said in effect, that they would not state whether the existing distress arose from over preductift or other causes; all they wished to do • was to devise some measure by which the farmer could - get a remunerating price, without considering the interest of the consumer. If the Committee had' intended to perform their ditty, and to devise some measure- for the cure of the evil of which dia m eountry complained, they ought to have sought for the cause of the distress. They might have considered whether taxation, and an expenditure great beyond necessity, and what he had before called, and what he now again called, in convic tion, the erroneous meaeures with respect to the currency adopted by that House in 1819, had not had a share in pro thecing the present situation of the country. All these sub jects, however, the Committee had studiously kept out of view, and they had been for six weeks ,engaged upon one object-- that of. raising the price of corn in the market ; and when the mode in which this was to be effected came to be examined, the report assumed , thellibeeter of a tie§ue tif-noetrums, to which no gentleman who did not wish to divert the attention of the House from a right consideration of the subject would have agreed.' _At the commencement of theereport, one of the-causes ot.distrees was stated to be the -immense quantity of corn in the market beyond tile demand. The Committee, if they had thought fit to reflect, might have found the cause of this in the damaged state of the harvest in the south of England. The farmers, .he contended, would have been obliged to thrash out their corn, even if they had had no rent to pay, for the straw was wanted for fodder, and the grain would not keep. He begged to ask the framers of this report how they could ven ture to attempt to raise the price of good corn to the consumer ? Be admitted that the average of all qualities was 47e. 7 but the arerage of good corn, which ought alone to be taken into con sideration; was from 555. to 60s. per quarter, which was be tween 25 and 30 per cent. higher than the price of wheat in any other market in the world.' If, then, the price of labour were dependent on the price of food, the productive industry (as had teen formerly the case in Holland, when a similar experiment was tried) must leave the country. He did not state these things with any invidious intention, but merely to show that the Committee had been mistaken in its view : it was morally impossible to raise the price of grain to any great extent beyond what it obtained in other kingdoms. It would be found that before the war the price was generally only a little higher than that of the continent, anti to such a state of things wiem'ust re turn. He did not wish to trouble the House with a series of remarks upon what be must call the further absurdities of the report : it would be evident to the country that the Committee had only, sat to enable Ministers to ride over the session, and after taxing the country to the full extent of what it couldbear, to dietnissehe Members to their constituents. Such had been the object, and such, probably, would be the result. The re port rather gave the subject the go-by, but at the same time an allusion was made to the alteration in the currency as one reason why the price of grain was reduced. One consideration would throw great light upon this point—viz: the decreased Issue of dountry Bank-notes: hence arose three-fourths of the difficul ties.a.nd distresses at present felt. It appeared,by returns from the Stamp Office, that_. • In 1814 the issue was - - £11,000,000 In 1810 - • 7,000,000 In 1818 • - e - • 12,000,000 ' in 1821 - 2,500,000 a most rapid and important diminution. -In 1819 he had given it as his opinion, that the depression of the currency was at its height in 1818. Ile had always disagreed from the Honour able Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo) that the price of gold was to be taken as the standard of the depression. In 1818, the debt of the public to the Bank of England was at its highest, the circulation of its notes was nearly at its greatest amount, anti the quantity of country notes issued beyond any former year.— He had been aware that the depreciation of the standard, on the passing of Mr. Peel's bill, wild benefit the labouring classes of the community ; for the price of provisions would fall instantly, and the price of labour only-very gradually. In Coventry, up to this hour, the price of labour was the same as in 1818, whilst the price of provisions was only half. Mr. Peel's Bill, in fact, imposed a tax of from 30 to 40 per cent. upon all property, and to that extent exempted the creditors from sustaining their share of the - burden; He was satisfied that the fit and rational course would have been to have raised the standard of gold to about * 51. 10s., instead of fixing it, at .31. 17s. Blid. Upon ore part of the question, the degree of relief to be expected from diminishing taxes, he was probably a little of the opinion of Ministers. These were times when nothing should be dis ghised ; and he must say, that he knew of no effectual relief, bnt either by the repeal of Mr. P ee l' s Bill, t o w hi c h h e wou ld never consent, or by reducing according to some rateable scale the contracts and taxes on this country, to the amount from which they had been raised by the bill of 1700. It had been his opinion that the currency was depreciated one-third ; the Hon. Member for Portarlington thought it about 10 on 12 per cent. aided as it was by the forced importation of gold. He wished now - to say a word or two as to what might be done by the House. Had the Committee produced a full report upon the whole subject, he did not see how the House could have digested in this Session any specific plan of relief. What then was the _nett thing to be done—the next duty of Parliament ? To re duce the amount of taxation in every way, and to have dimi nished the expenditure to the lowest possible scale. As it was clear that nothing effectual could now be done, he recommend edthat after the holidays the repeal of all taxes shouldbe pro posed that did not encroach on the payment of interest to the public creditor ; and that at the same time no exertion should be spared to put the charges of the nation on a footing that would call as little as possible for fresh privations. This was now all that was left to' be done. By r ef erence t o th e assess ments to the property-tax, it appeared that in 1815 the landed interest was assessed to the amount of 47,000,0001.: from this stun 15 ; 000,0001. were to be deducted for debts and incumbran ces, leaving 32,000,0001. What was the state of the same class at this moment, reduced by a revolution as effectual as that of France, but without its violence ? The landed property of the country was deteriorated one-third, and the incumbrances had been augmented ; so that what in 1815 was worth 32;000,0001., was now worth not more than 18,000,0001. or 19,000,0001. This was the, whole income of the landed nobility and gentry of the realm, while. the public creditors and annuitants w e re d ou bl e their former amount. Surely this situation of affairs was fright ful, and the only remedy suggested by die agricultural coin mitte was to raise the price of grain to the consumer, or to ag gravate the already abominable corn-bill. He felt as deeply as any man for the sufferings of the agricultural interest, and would be at all times ready to relieve them, but not at the ex pence of die other classes.of the community. • Mr. F. LEWIS did not consider this- at all a desirable mo ment for going into the vast range of matter connected with the report.—(Hear.)—The Hon. 'Gentleman who had just sat down had, however, in such strong terms attacked the Agricultural Committee, that it became necessary for him (Mr. Lewis) as a member of it, to express a hope that neither the House nor the Country would concur in the censures that had been so freely bestowed. The Hon. Gentleman had charged the Committee partly for - what it had done, and partly for what it had not done; but when he said that the proper course foreit to have pursued was to have investigated the causes of the distresses, and to have ascertained how far they arose from taxation, and how far from a change in the currency, he (Mr. Lewis) must beg leave to say that he widely differed from the Hon. Gentleman. Had that course been recommended in the Committee, he should have re solutely resisted it ; because, although he had very often heard Honourable Members argue that the distresses were attribut able to the change in the currency, he had never yet heard any individual hardy enough to say, that the step that had been taken in this respect ought - to be retraced. The House had given-the Committee, in the order of reference, no such power or instruction; and to what beneficial or practical result could it have led, -to rip up what no Honourable Member had been found daring enough to attack in any substantial form ? To have assumed this power, and to have inquired what taxes might or might not be fitly repealed, would have been a direct inter ference with the duty of the ivhole House, which was the labour of every Session, and for which a Session was hardly ever found sufficiently protracted. In fact, the present was but a sequel of the Committee of last year, from which a long Report had proceeded, in the main points of which he (Mr. Lewis) con curred, and which entered into all the reasoning applicable to the subject, and the probable remedies that might be resorted to. The whole matterwas, therefore, exhausted, and it would have been unwise on this account, if on no other, to have gone over the whole ground again. He took this, therefore, the earliest opportunity of disdaiming on his own part, (and many other members. of -the Committee would no doubt agree with• him) any intention - to increase' the existintr prohibitions upon and impediments to the importation of foreign grain, or to raise in any manner the price of grain to the consumer: Upon this point there were individual members of the Committee .who thought otherwise; but it was the object and study of the framers of the Report not to make any change in this re spect. Mr. *WESTERN said, he could not concur in the censure passed.on the Committee by thd Hon. Member for Covedry (Mr. Ellice.) . They had not been guilty of any omission, or neither the, alteration in the currency nor the question of re ducihg taxes, had been referred to i theirt. consideration. Though he did not approVe of the measures recommended by them, he must do justice to the intentions with which they were proposed. —(Hear !)—lt was not fair to the Committee to say, that their . ' only, object seemed to be to raise the pricaof corn. It was in point of fact merely a continuation of the Committee of last Session, which had been appointed in consequence of the peti tions presented to the House on the subject of agricultural dis tress. In the ptesent Session also, various petitions had been presented,- complaining of the Act of 1815, as affording no sort of check to prevent foreign corn from being poured into the market in any quantity, when the price in alie home market reiiched a certain price. The Committee for this .reason proposed to themselves to provide some remedy. against the evil. -The re-1 thetly proposed he did not approve of. He thought it would be injurious to the British grower ; but he must say, that it was re commended in the spirit of affording relief to the agriculture Qf the country: So far, however, from doing this, he felt no hesi tation in saying, that it would only increase the dismay of the agriculturists, and that it would have been better to let the law remain as it stood. Even admitting that through some unex pected and unforeseen events the change might, in the course of years, be productive of advantage, he thought it was injudicious to introduce it.now. It was impossible to say in the fluctuating, state of the Continent, whether the duties proposed by . the Committee would er would not prove an effectual check against excess of importation; When lie saw the increasing difficulties of the country ; that the distress went on increasing, and was likely to continue so till some effectual reniedy were applied, he would daily, again and again, revive these discussions. He stated the other night that the farmers of Essex were under the greatest difficulties, and that two-thirds of them if called upon to,pay up their accounts would be found insolvent. Many of his constituents in that county had since assured him that such Was the fact. Their capital was gone, for in fact the landlord hiid been living upon it for some dine. Was not this a state of things that imposed a necessity on the House of making diligent inquiry into the causes frem which it arose, and the remedies that could be applied. An immense portion of the' difficulty was attributable to the alteration of the cur rency. The Honourable Member for Chichester (Mr. Hits kisson) stated in a publication of his, that the manufacturing distress of 1818 and 1817 arose from overproduction, and was in part N. be attributed to an alteration in the currency. Ex cess of produce might have had some effect in producing the prepent agricultural distress ; but he contended that it was ahnost exclusively to be, attributed to the change of currency. They had been told that there was a superabundance of produce in France as well as here. There was a superabundance, but then he could state, on very good authority, that it did not pro duce. the same difficulties there that existed now in this country. It was not the value of agricultural produce alone that had fal len, but that of every other production. He had no doubt that the distresses of the country would at length compel them to give up the Act of 1819. The House would be obliged to re-. trace its steps; He saw clearly that- this must be the result. The advance of prices in consequence of the measure of 1797 ' was at least 401. per cent. If they looked to the tables in Adam Smith, it would clearly appear that nothing else could have produced such an increase in the price of corn. For 150 years previous to 1792, there was little or no fluctuation in the price of corn. In the course of 20 years, from 1792 to 1812, the price had doubled. What could have caused this but the alteration in the value of money.? Enormous taxes had been laid on since 1797 1 an immense debt had been contracted in a depreciated currency, the interest of which they were now compelled to pay in a currency greatly increased in value. They were paying m standard currency double the value of the amount for which they contracted. By this means such -havoc had been made in 'the property of the agricultural anil industrious classes, as had never been occasioned even by civil war. By the measure of 1797 the prices of produce were doubled ; the rents of the land lords were doubled, it was true but it should be remembered' that taxes were also doubled, that outgoings of every kind were doubled, and that - therefore the landlords were not a bit better off by the increase of rents. If the standard should conic down to what it had been a century previous to 1797,-the conse quence would be, that the value of property must be,reduced to one half what it was at present, with all the incumbrances still remaining. Taking the incumbrances into account, such as dowers, settlements, agencies, repairs, not to speak of taxes, he would say, that the net income of landlords did not amount to more than one half the nominal. What, then, east be the consequence of a further reduction ? It was not the agricul turists alone that were distressed.- Let them look at West In dia property, the change of currency, had as great an effect, upon that, and every other species of property, as on the agri cultural.—.-Even looking at the labouring classes, he was dis posed to draw a different conclusion to that of the lion. Nlem tter for. Coventry, (Mr. Ellice.) He (Mr. W.) contended, that their situation must eventually. be rendered worse by the Bill of 1819. The price of labour, did not, it was true, immediate ly follow the - price of co;n, and in this way, the alteration in the currency had for a time an effect beneficial to the labourer ; but the moment the price of labour settled down to the price of corn, the situation of the labourer would be rendered worse, for he would be paid less for his labour, and remain still chargeable with the taxes, in a currency greatly increased in value.— Never were any effects so unjust, so disastrous, and so cruel, as those produced to the public creditor, by the measure of 1797, and those inflicted on the public debtor, by that of 1819. If some person more capable of doing justice to so important a subject did not bring it forward, he should feel it his duty to do so before the close of the Session. Mr. RICARDO said, no one was more aware than lie was of the evils of the variation of the currency, and he had consequently at all 'times used all his efforts to produce a fixed and invariable standard of value, but still he cotelel not agree in the effects which the Hon. Member for Essex alleged that the Alteration of the standard had had upon the agricultural in terests. If they for a moment looked at the effect of the altera tion of the currency, they would perceive it was impossible it could be the main cause of the agricultural distress. Let them suppose the taxation, what they knew it was, about 50 millions. In considering the effect of the- currency upon this taxation, they must deduct the quantity which would go further in con sequence of the rise in the value of money—say about 10 mil lions. They had then 40 millions of taxes, the burthens of which would be increased by the operation of the change of the currency. What portion of this was borne by the tenantry of the country' ? One-fourth of the sum was the utmost amount borne by the tenantry, leaving the landlords out of the question, or ten millions. Supposing the change in the value to' ave been according to the extravagant calculation of the Honourable Member for Essex, 25 per Cent., the utmost in crease of the burthen on the tenantry was '2,500,0001. , Could it be possible that the distress of the farmers could be attri buted to an increase of burthen to the amount of 2,500,0001 ? (Hear !)—lf this was sufficient to reduce the tenantry to dis tress, was it not merely because the landlords continued to ex act the same amount of rent ? But it was not - the fact that they exacted the same rent. They gave up on the average about 25 per cent.. Whence then was the distress of the land lords ? they gave up 25 per cent. and retained 75, which was equal in value to the hundred. How then were they injured, but by the portion of the taxes which they had to bear ? Surely these taxes could not swallow up the whole of the net produce of the country. An increase of burthen on the landed interest, of ten per cent. could not swallow up the whole of . the rent of the landlord and the profit of the tenant. • But did he say that the landed interest had suffered to no greater extent ? He said they had suffered to an infinitely greater extent; but that other causes had been assigned, quite sufficient to account for it to his mind, and quite independent of taxation and cur rency. The great cause was the abundance of produce in the country, from a succession of good harvests, from the great importations from Ireland, and: from an abundance of other causes. But it appeared to him quite impossible that this state of distress could last.—(Hear !)—lt was quite impossible that the surplus produce of the land, should be only sufficient to pay the taxes, leaving no rent nor profit.—(Hear !)—He should now say a few words as to the Report of the Coln mittee.—The Report of the Committee of the last Session con tained some admirable propositions., The first part of it was worthy to be compared with any iteport that had proceeded from a Committee of the House of Commons, and gave it a title to be placed by the side of the Reports of the Bullion Com mittee and the Committee on the Bank. That part of the Re port contained some most sound reasoning as to the Corn Trade. It shewed that the Corn Law of 1815 was in itself a cause of the agricultural distress that it produced two evils ; that in times of scarcity, when the price here rose to a certain height, the ports were opened, without reference to the price of grain abroad, and the country was liable to be deluged with grain. This was one great evil. Another evil was, that in time of plenty, when from 'a succession of two or three good harvests there was more corn in the country than could be consumed by. the people, in consequence of the artificially high price at which it was kept by the Corn Law, it was necessary that a great fall must take place before it could find a vent by exportation. Now, what was the inference to be drawn fiom this st a t emen t, but that measures should be taken to bring prices to the level of the Continent ? If that had been done, in case of a surplus Production of corn, after a small fall,, exportation might take place to foreign countries, and our own market would be re lieved. Instead of following up their previous reasoning, the other part of the Report was totally inconsistent with the corn mencement. All the absurd 'notions as to the nature of coun tervailing duties were advocated: It was asserted that a coun tervailing duty should be equal to the difference of the expence of raising corn here and in other countries, whereas a counter vailing duty should only be equivalent to the tastes • by- which growth of corn was burthened, and to be safb and effectual, should be accompanied by an equal drawback or bounty on exportation, so that the grower of corn in England might enter into 'fair competition with the Foreign Power, both at home and abroad, just as if no taxes existed. But there could be'no end to this - system of counteracting duty, if it were to depend upon the quantity of expence incurred, in the cultivation of poor lands for an imperfect produce • for the imposition of countervailing duties on this score would apply to the produce of grapes in this country through the prec,ess of hot-houses, in order that these grapes should be manufactured .into wine, which the English should exclusively prefer, with its enormous expence, to all foreign competition. The enforcement of this system was indeed so absurd, that he was astonished at the judgment of those by whom it was recommended. Before this country was densely peopled, it Vas, no .doubt corn; petent to us to .produce, from our own' fertile lands, an ample supply, not only for our own population, but to render., Great Britain an exporting country for corn. Our situation was however vefy different, -when, from the ihcrease of our po pulation' the cultivation of our poor lands became necessary. In what he was urging, he had no doubt whatever that he was much more the advocate of the . agriculturists than those who were their most prominent and professed friends. He was in deed always their earnest advocate, as he shbwed himself by his conduct upon the Agricultural Cominittee of ,the last Ses sion, when he voted for every reasonable concession for the re lief of the distress of the agriculturists, from a hope that when such distress was removed the country would return to sound principles; but now he had to lament, from the two last para graphs, that there was no promise, or even disposition, to make that return. On the contrary, he witnessed alesolution to per severe in the old system which created in his mind cansiderable discontent. But Estill lie would support - the farmers, and espe cially in promoting . the repeal of any taxes which "appeared to press exclusively upon them ; for he felt that the repeal of any such taxation was most desirable on the score of common jus tice, provided the tax upon any particular class of the people were not transferred to any .other class. Mr. H. G. BENNET rose to protest against the doctrine that taxes had nothing to do with the distresses of thQagricul, tural interest. He professed not to be able to go into the cal= culations which his Hon: Friend had stated, but he couldaitate that in 1792 prices had been as low as at this moment: But the teases had been at the utmost but 19,000,0001. including collection. Nothing had then been talked of butahe prosperity of the country. The 3 per cents.- were at par, every man re, ceived his rent, and every one thought the country had never been more prosperous. Why was there such a difference now ? Why, but because the taxes were now 56,000,0001. and taken out of the produce of the country, Whether arising from land or industry Here was a country, than which there was none more industrious in the world, possiessing a soil, if not the very best, one of the fairest, and a climate among the best in the temperate part of, the globe, and particularly fitted for agricul ture. Let them look to the state of the people who lived in this country. From one end of ' the land - to the other; they would / find nothing but the cry of want.. (1-lear, hear I)—His Honourable Friend said this was owing to a superabund ance of produce. Too much corn grew—the trees grew too fast.' But the cause of distress was, that there were such de mands on their pockets by the Crown, the church, and the poor, that nothing was left to the landlord for rent, or to the culti vator for profit. 'Why was this so ? Let them look back to 1792, and they found prices the same, and the country rich. But in '1822 ' the country was in the greatest distress. Nothing but mere words and sophistry could be urged to show that the demands of the Government did not occasion this state of distress. This coutry, under the operation of the Government, was approach ing to the state of India. He doubted not that the land would be cultivated ; but as the Zemindars in India had heendispoesess ed, so gentleman after, gentleman would disappear in this coun try, and the end would be that the Government, the Church, and the poor would become the proprietors. A revolution, un equalled in effusion of blood or ravage of property, had. been going on in this country for the last twenty years, but .particu larly during-the last.four years. No example of such a revolu tion was to be found in history ! His Hon. Friend had enter.. edinto a calculation to shew that only 2,500,0001: of the taxes pressed upon the tenantry, in consequence of the change in the currency ; but. he had left out of view the various payments which they were obliged to make now in an improved currency to the same nominal amount as in the debased currency. He knew of_ Gentlemen. who had been in the receipt of 60001. or 80001. a year, and non , received not 12,0001. a year. This had not been occasioned by extravagance on their part, but by the allowances which they were obliged to make to younger chil dren, and other burdens. Many were compelled to live in lodg ings in London or Bath ; or to go abroad, instead of bringing up and educating their fbanilies at home, as their fathers had done. The Bill of the Right Hon. Gentleman for resuming cash pay ments he looked at with. reverence: It deprived the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the-usual resources in slew corner and Chauge-alley. He was quite unwilling to embark even in the discussion of this question again. The only mode of relief, and of . great and effectual relief, was the reduction of taxes. It was a joke—he had not a word to express his contempt for the opinion which would represent that reduction of taxes was not the only means of saving the little remnant that was left, and keeping the hand of the tax-gatherer out of it. He would say " Get rid of that juggler, the sinking fund, and give the people the 5,000,0001. or 6,000,0001. which it takes from them : if that will not do, the first creditor is the plough :. the Gentlemen of England mist not be stripped of their estates, the farmer Must not be deprived of his pittance, and we must' come to an accommodation with the public reditor." Though it might now seem bold to say so, he was sure that he should live to see that result, and that the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and the Noble Lord would be seen coming forward, and, Under the plea of necessity, advocat ing,such a measure. He should hold it inexcusable, if every thing were not done to prevent this, and to pay strictly every shilling due to the creditor. But if this could not be done, they were bound, as public men, to do what every private man did, to come to an amicable arrangement for paying a portiOn of the debt, before they should come to have none at all to pay.— (Cheers.)—He could consider the Agricultural Committee only as a Committee of landlords whose object was to raise the price of corn. Had it been a Committee of Merchants, they would, he had no doubt, have come to a conclusion directly . opposite. For the consumers at large, he would say, that the Committee and the Report had no other object but the raising of. prices, which would be a LONDONDERRY calamity. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY felt it necessary to offer a few remarks after what had occurred in the course of the de bate, but more especially after what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury. He did not know how it might strike the House, but he had heard nothing this evening to convince him that it would not have been better to reserve the subject for discussion when the attention of the House might be directed to some more practical measure than had been suggested in this conversation. He would put it to the House whether the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, if their sentiments were such as they, had avowed, had not lost much precious time since the opening of the Session, in which they might have submitted some measure to the House founded on the reasoning which they had just heard. It was singular that course had not been taken which the Hon. Member for Essex was disposed to favour, and which it seemed probable might have been sup ported by the. Hon. Member for Coventry, for although he believed him to have been one of its ardent supporters at the tixue it_paased, lie had ever since seemed to have misgiv ings on the auhject, and anxious•to atone for the part he' had .taken by censuring the measure on every occasion. He thought the Honourable Member for Essex ought not to have' contented himself with complaining of the measure of 1819 as he had done that night. 'Though he (the Marquis of Lon donderry) was prepared in every possible point of view to uphold this Bill, with the sentiments entertained by that Hon. Gentleman, he should rather have blought forward some practical measure. He ought not to have endeavoured to make the country dissatisfied with its situation, but should rather have endeavoured to prevail on Parliament to repeal that act which he thought so injurious to the best interests of the country". He could now understand the course pursued by the Hon. Member far Shrewsbury. He could not before un derstand why it was thought desirable that with imperfect views they should,enter into the discussion of a subject which came before them ih no practical shape. But he could stow see the object of the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury, and he must enter his itost solemn protest against the purpose which he had in view for if he understood him. right, lie wished to sound the public mind through the channel of the distresses of the agricultural classes, to ascertain if they were disposed to favour that most flagrant deviation from sound policy as well as from common honesty--a breach of faith towards the pub lic creditor.—(Hear, hear !)—Could a British House of Com mons sanction such a measure, it would relieve no class in the community, but it would overwhelm all classes with ruin. Were it possible for them to be dishonest and base enough to listen to a project of National Bankruptcy, the result must be most calamitous. If they could adopt the idea of abandoning the Sinking Fund to repeal taxes to that amount, it would prove as injurious as unjust, and the faith of the nation would be sacrificed without relieving the existing distress. To ascer tain this it was not necessary to wait for the consequences of. such an experiment. Every man at all acquainted with the subject knew that were this done, it could afford no essential relief—it would be but a drop of water in the sea.— (Hear !)—Nay, he would go further and say, that if she whole weight of our taxes could by possibility be removed—as well those which were necessary to support our establish. ments, as those which were demanded to enable the country to fulfil its engagements—if all the taxes could at once be swept away, that degree of relief would not be afforded that no dis tress should. be felt.—(Hear.)—This was not the first time that the Mil. Member for Shrewsbury had attacked the Govern ment of the country—not the present Administration,' but the Government generally, by imputing to them all the distresses that were the subject of complaint, by making them answer able for all the burthens throyn on the country by the late' war, and for events long since passed by, over which they could have no controul. Thitllon. Gentleman might take a lesson from his. Friend near him, the Member for Portarlington, who had shewn how small a portion of that distress now com plained of had been thrown on the suffering individuals by taxa tion. Any man, who took a rational view of this subject, must know that he was attempting to mislead the public when he re presented that the existing distress could be removed by any remission of taxation. H must take this opportunity, after what had been advanced, of stating what he knew the feel ings of the country to be on this subject. H e wo u ld never believe, and he thought he knew its temper well, that the country, under any degree of suffering, would so far forget itself as to favour injustice. He would not believe that under any circumstances they would be disposed to break faith with the public creditor. The security which the Hon. Gentleman proffered to • offer, in the first instance,—by not calling on the public creditor to compound till the effect of reducing taxes to - the amount of the Sinking Fund had been tried, was no security at all. They would give, by taking such a course, only a brief delay ; for the certain consequences of such a step were sufficiently known. The distress was caused by the distress of the seasons, and the markets ; and therefore it was obvious could not be cured by the remission of taxation, even though that were pushed to the length of national bankruptcy. On this point there could be no doubt ; for if a Parliament could be found so degenerate, and a people .so destitute of honour and common honesty, as not to start at the idea of such an abandonment of principle, the most sordid calculation - would forbid the adoption of such a measure ; as the want of protection for all the great interests of the nation, which must be felt in that case, wound make it worse than usqles4, and instead of removing the evil it would only' have the effect of largely aggravating that distress, which it was vainly proposed 'by such means to remedy. And here, when they heard so much of the distress of the country, they must give him leave to say, that the Agriculturists were the only class in the community who suffered. The manufacturers of the country were in a state of great activity of exertion, and a great increase of their social comforts had taken place, which were likely to continue. The commerce of the country was flourishing, and in every part the utmost activity was to be re marked. He would repeat it, the only body of men now suf fering under the pressure of distress was the agricultural part of the community, and their situation was to be traced to the course of the seasons, and the consequent state of the markets. Though abundance was desirable, yet carried be yond a certain point, it occasioned evils like those now felt. From extensive competition the markets declined, and the ' price of corn shaken, that of every other article of agri cultural produce must totter. Whatever was the situa tion of the agricultural classes, it was not to be supposed there were no indications of prosperity. He should rather say, that the country was generally in a prosperous, state. This was not the time to enter at large into the subject; but when every country in Europe complained of the same distress which afflicted the agricultural classes in England, afid when the distress extended in an equal, if not in a superior degree, to America, where it could not be imputed to excessive taxation, it could not be maintained that the evil was caused by the amount of our taxes. Such being the cir cumstances of the case, the House might safely go to its ad journment without any apprehension that the opinions express ed by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury on the subject of na tional faith, would find any favour out of doors. He believed it to be so well understood by the public, that it was known a national bankruptcy must be as fatal to the interests of those for whose benefit it might be intended, as to those of the parties at whose expence it should be proposed to be made.—(Hear !) To this every feeling, as well of policy as of morality, was op posed, and in this country no principle was held more sacred than that which bound them to do justice by those to whom the country was indebted.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. BENNET explained. He had broached no doctrine of the kind. He had only stated that the measures of Ministers were driving along in that course which would, terminate in a national bankruptcy. That he repeated.—(Elear, hear!)—The measures which had defrauded the creditor in 1797, 1 and the debtor in 1822, were rapidly proceeding to ruin the nation (Hear hear !) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had understood the Hon. Member to recommend the reduction of the Sinking Fund ; and if that would not do, a composition with the public creditor as a private individual compounded with his creditors. Mr. BENNET—The Noble Lord has understood me cor rectly. Mr. ELLICE begged to explain. He had stated on every occasion that the currency , of the country had been left long enough at the discretion of the Bank and the Government. He had constantly opposed every attempt to interfere with the standard adopted, and he had on that ground differed from his Hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), who had ; proposed silver and gold as the.. standard. In supporting the Bill of 1819, he had expressed his fears for the consequencesl of that measure ; and he had also contended (as Hon. Gentle men might recollect) that, even if the standard was depreciated to the price of gold at the particular time, no relief whatever would follow to the country. Mr. RICARDO explained. No man, he said, since he had been in the House l had more strenuously than himself advocated the repeal of taxation. Mr. PEEL would put it to Members themselves whether any thing like full discussion could be had, at the then moment, and urged' the impropriety of partial discussion, as tending to throw erroneous views before the country. For himself, he rose mere ly to enter his protest against being supposed to concur in the doctrines of the Hon. Gentleman opposite ; but he could not forbear observing, how easy it would be to shew that the dis tresses of the country could not be owing to the causes assigned for them. 'Neither the existence of distress, nor its extent England, could be denied ; but if he (Mr. Peel) found other countries labouring under the same distress with England, and if he found in those countries no alteration of currency, no weight of taxation, none of those causes to which the distress of England was ascribed, then he was justified, at least, in contending that it was not entirely out of those causes that the distress of England had arisen. Now, both in Flanders and in Switzerland the greatest agricultural distress existed at the present moment. In' parts of Switzerland the pressure was so severe, that the land-owners actually could not buy tools to till the ground with. Switzerland had neither heavy taxation nor changed currency to complain of ; and it was evi dent, therefore, that, independent of those circumstances the same evil which now afflicted England might exist. There were other facts presenting themselves uponthe surface of the subject, which went to negative the effect of the causes to which our distress was imputed. The operation of those causes had been (as re garded the country) general ; the distress was only partial. And the 'House should take notice how completely the Bill of 1819 had falsified. the predictions of those who had opposed it. Gen tlemen on the other side had most positively declared that, if the Bill passed, the revenue of the country must fail : but the Bill, had passed, and the currency had improved, and the re venue, notwithstanding, had gone on increasing. He asked that the Bill should be fairly tried, not by its effect upon a particular interest, but by its effect upon the state of the whole interests of the country. ' He desired that the state of the manufacturing interest might be taken, the state of the poor's rates, the comforts enjoyed by the manufactur ing population, and the tranquillity prevailing in the manufac turing districts. He asked, also, that reference mi g ht be had (in looking at the Bill) to the general state of commerce in the country ; and that an Unfair stigma might not be cast upon the measure, merely because there was a pressure upon the agricultural interest. He asked this,. first, because he could not admit partial distress to be a fair criterion ; and, next, be cause he would not admit even that partial distress to be occa sioned by the Bill. The Right Honourable Gentleman con cluded his speech by apologising for having been led so far into discussion. He had risen merely that his "silence might not be construed into acquiescence in what had been said by the Honourable Gentleman opposite, and to claim a suspen sion of the judgment of the House until the subject had been considered as from its importance, it deserved to be. Mr. CALCRAFT did not insist upon the billof 1819 as one of the very material causes of agricultural distress; although it did press in some measure upon that interest as well as upon others : but when the Right Hon. Gentleman relied upon the prosperity of the manufacturers, he (Mr,. Calcraft) would tell him that the very distress of the agriculturist was one great source of that prosperity. He.was bound to declare (although , he knew the doctrine would even by his own friends be ill re ceived), that the agricultural, distress arose out of the too great production ; and that over-production created such a competition in the market, that the tax which the grower paid he was unable to throw upon the consumer. The manufacturer was well off, because the price of produce was ruinously low. The agricul turist was starving, because be raised produce under heavy bur dens, and because he was compelled to sell, if lie sold at all, at prices which would not reimburse him. And' what was the re lief proposed for all this suffering ? One million was to be laid out in corn for the purpose of warehousing. But he (Mr. Calcraft) did contend that that measure would do nothing at all for the agriculturist. The million must be laid out in corn which would bear warehousing, and that kind of corn was already at a fair price ; it was the damaged refuse corn, which could not bear warehousing, which hung upon the hands of the farmer and .kept down the market. The warehousing plan • would do no good at al to the grower, and it would do a great debl of harm to the consumer. Gentlemen could scarcely fail to have observed, that the price of bread was high as compared with the price of corn : that arose from the quantity of damaged corn in the market, which could not be made use of in the way of making bread. It came, then, to the question of what ought to be done ? and, upon that poi n t, h e (Mr. Calcraft) did call the attention of the House to the declaration of the Noble Lord opposite (the Marquis of Londonderry). The Noble Lord said, that, suppose that the whole taxes of the country, much less - 5,000,0001. of them, repealed, the grower of corn could not be relieved. The Opposition had been charged with extravagant propositions, but let the House only consider that single pror/o sition of the Noble Lord. About 70,000,0001. of,revenue were collected; the collection was made at a very great expence, ; the 'mere net revenue nearly do u bl e d th e ren t a l o f t h e whole kiligdom, and yet the Noble Lord said that its repeal would pot helithe far mer! A more monstrous proposition had surely never been uttered by any Gentleman, or many assembly. The short truth was, that it the price of produce could not be raised., the c,harge of pro duction must be lessened, and that lessening must take place in different branches of expense, and in different ways--by abate ment of rent, by lowering of tithes, by diminishing poor's rate, by reduced price of labour, and last, certainly not least, by a proportionate lessening of taxation. With what face could tto vernment ask the landholder to abate his rent, while it told hint that no end would be answered by abatement of taxation ? Ile did not say that it was possible to reduce taxation in an equal degree with rent ; but he did insist upon every point of reduction which could be made consistent with the engagements by which the country was bound he went no t'arther; honour, Justice, and sound policy, alike demanded thatthose engageraents should be fulfilled. But Honourable Gentlemen on the other side de- , precated the discussion of the subject at the present moment_ No wonder, upon such a report as they had got up, that they should deprecate discussion; for, of all the docitments that had ever been sent forth to suffering people, none surely had ever been 'so calculated to disappoint all expectation. It would hay.: been better by far to have met the thing at once, and to have , told the people " We regret your distre ss , b u t we can do nothing , for you. lle (Mr. Calcraft) gave notice, that' when th e re port came to be discussed, he should 'feel it his duty to read the petitions upon which the Report proceeded'; he should then discuss the docuinent paragraph by paragraph, to show how inefficiently the Committee had executed the duty intrusted to them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained. Mr. 11. GURNEY expressed his firm conviction, that the great distrem (which might more properly be called the great pecuniary embarrassment) of the country, had been produced entirely by - the effeci of the Bill of 1819. The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. PENSIONS. Mr. BANKES moved for an Account of all Pensions ex ceeding 1001. per.arinum, paid out of the Civil List ; the like account as to Pensions charged upon the 44 per cents duty; and the like as to charges upon the Civil List of Ireland.— Agreed to. • POLLS IN YORKSHIRE. Mr. WILLIAMS WY NN moved to bring in a Bill for the further regulating the eleetioni of Knights - of the Shire in Yorkshire. The Hon. Member's intentiorr was, that two Mem bers should be chosen by the West Riding, and two by the North and East.—Leave given. • . - , . MARRIAGE ACT. Dr. PHILLIMORE having moved the second reading of the Marriage •Act Amendment Bill, . • - Mr. BERNAL called,, the attention of the • H o u se t o t h e clause which respected the publication' of bans. The. Act prO vided that where one of the parties was a minor; the bans should be published in the parish in which that party might res id e . H e (Mr. Bernal) wished to know, in case both parties were minors, in which parish baris- were to be published, or whether they were to be published in both ? . • - Dr. PHILLIMORE just stated, for the information of the Hon. Member, that he did not apprehend any difficulty would arise. The provisions of the act would be better discussed .here after in Committee. The Bill was then committed for, the 19th of April. 'ROYA T., BURGHS ACCOUNTS BILL. The LORD ADVOCATE" moved the committal of the Royal Burghs Accounts 8i11.,' In answer to queitions from Mr. HUME and Lord A. Ha •st the Learned Lord stated that the Bill was only to be committed pro forma and then printed. The Report was ordered to be taken into further ennsidera don on the 26th of April. SUMMARY PROCEEDINGS BILL. The Report of the Summary Proceedings Bill was received, and the thud reading of the Bill was fixed for Monday, the 2211 of April. The Committees of Supply and Ways and Means were post poned, and the other orders being disposed of, the House Ad journed to Wednesday, the 17th instant. • . A S.S I Z SURREY LENT ASSIZES—KnrosTow, APRIL 2. CIVIL SIDE. (Before Mr. Baron GRAHAM.) THE KING Y. PALMER AND ANOTHER. This was an indictment against the defendants, Henry Palmer and Thomas Joshua Park, for a conspiracy to obtain by fraud Bills of Exchange to the amount of 2,0001., and War rants of Attorney to the same amount, from Sir Thomas Swymi - ner Champneys, Bart. The prosecution was conducted by Mr. WALFORD and Mr. ADOLPHUS ; the defence of Park by Mr. GURNEY and the, nnoN SERJEANT, and Palmer conducted his own defence. The trial of this case lasted the whole of yesterday, and finished this day at three o'clock. The leading circumstances proved in evidence were the same AS those detailed some time since in our Reports from Union hall. On his ere - Ss-examination, Sir Tlpmas S. Champrieys ad mitted that for the last thirty years he had been greatly embar rassed and had endeavoured to raise money by the usual means of discounting bills at most enormous sacrifices, buying timber, velvets, silks 2 &c., and reselling the property at great loss. He said that during this time he h a d b een the victim of all the swindling money-lenders in town, upwards of forty of whom he had in a list as scoundrels who had been pecking at him, and endeavouring to obtain his securities tending to his utter ruin. He admitted that during this period he had been raising money by these means to the amount of 200,0001. His, evidence was corroborated by several witnesses, whose names he had mentioned as being present at, or connected with the transaction which he described. The defendant, PALMER, addressed the Jury on his own part, and Mr. GURNEY on behalf of Park. The topics ad dressed were that there was nothing like a conspir acy in the case, inasmuch as the prosecutor was a man hackneyed in the ways of the world, who could not complain of having been de ceived; that no fraud had been committed upon him, for that his bills were complete waste paper; that he and his servant Higgins were themselves conspirators in drawing anti accepting bills to deceive the world; and, in short, that the defendants were the sufferers , who had been deluded out of their money by the designing ingenuity of the prosecutor. Mr. Baron GRAHAM summed up the case with strict impar tiality, and the Jury, after a short deliberation, found both the defendants Guilty. COAL-MARKET, APRIL' 3. Ship! at Market. Ships sold Price. 56 Newcastle . - - 34 -29 s Od to 4,s Ocl 13 Sunderland - - yi - 31s 6d to 41s 6d MARRIED. At the Cathedral of St. Columb, Thomas Kennedy, Esq. High Sheriff of the city and county of Londonderry, to Eliza beth Olivia Rosetta, youngest daughter of the late George Cary, Esq. of White Castle, . county Donegal, and Cassino, county Derry. On Wednesday, at Lewisham, Robert Maugham, Esq. to- Miss Corrock. DIED. On Sunday, 31st ult., of aPPPlexy, Mr. Wm. Sutton, of Pa ternoster-row, youngest son of the late Rev. Wm. Button, whcr also died by a similar visitation of God in August last. . On the 2d instant, suddenly, while returning on horseback to his house at Homerton, Mr. John Barton, of Tower-street. On the 31st ult. at his house, Newington-place, Kennington, in his 74th year, Mr. John Haddock, of the late banking-house' of Whitehead, Howard, and Hadd9ck,'Cateaton-street. On the 2d instant, at Dorking, in the 84th year of her age, Catherine, relict of the Rev. Owen Manning, of Godalmingon the - county of Surrey. We are sorry to learn, by a private letter, the- sudden death of the Rev. John - Williams Vicar. of East Testead, Hants. On Saturday morning, Mr, W. called at Mr. Ady's, a grocer at Turnham Green, to wait for the stage to Testead, when he entered into conversation with Mr. A. on a variety of philan thropic topics, in which he, felt much interested—as the Abori tion of the Slave Trade, the Peace Society, the new system of the Education of the Poor, &c. and expressed his hope, that, by these means, knowledge would universally. prevail, When he had uttered this, his last wish, he fell back and instantly expired. Mr. Williams was afternoon Lecturer at Chiswick church for nearly - twenty years, and was universally respected for his piety, evangelical principles, and benevolent conduct. But though an impressive and faithful preacher, he was never popular, owing to an asthmatic complaint under which he la boured. He was attentive to visiting the sick, and enforced a strict observation of the Sabbath!--(Mornilfg Pop"..) Printed and Published for the PROPRIETORS, at . th . Sus- Office, No. 112, Strand, by J. B. CARSTAIRS. , a, g I f In tic ti