The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-07 00:00:00

Mr. PITT observed upon one of the Clauses, it was there proposed to put, Volunteers under the command, of. General o.lricers when they were called Out, which theywou'ld be in considerable numbers in the various DiStrias of this Country, for he knew of nathirrg' so likely to improve them materially in their Military Exercise—Now considering the dif. ferent Distrias in which they were dispersed, as many of them should be, and he hoped they would be, put_ on permanent duty as much , as possible, they shOUld therefore be under the command of an Officer of the Line: The general rule was, that they were to be. put under the command only of a General Of ficer it 4, considering the 'variety of cases in which they - might be oat, and the different idistriffi all at once, it' might be impossible to . provide fur each of them a General Officer to be their Comniander ; in which case it might be extremely convenient to put - them under the very respiOable command of Incpeet ing Officers,. who were below the rank of General Officers, and therefore he.shmild move that the Words of tbe Clause should run thud, ".Such General or other ij field Officer." Mr. Secret cry :YORKE said, it was •perfeetly clear that Lieutenant Generals-were General Officers according to military 'dtfinitiOn ; and this;: was. a point which depended wholly on His Majesty, for he alight at. hiS pleasure commission his Adjutants General - Officers, for His Majesty might, beyond all doubt, create the office of Adjutant.. General ; there was such an Officer now in France. No doubt His Majesty inight give such a tank,. and to as many Ad; jutants oh 1 - i . ;:t Majesty might thi:J: rroper, and thin they would ail take the rank of Adjutant General, and be to all intents and purposes General Ofiieers, and that this was within the general prerogative of the Crown, was a matter not to be doubted. View ing this=point as he did, he was persuaded that the words now pro rased, '' or other Field should not be inserted in this Clause, for then a Lieur;nant-Colonel might be placed Under an-infe rior Field Officer. He was hoWever perfectly aware that the 'Volunteers should have the bene f r of the assistance of officers who were not General Officers. With respeCt to .the Inspeding Field Officers who have not the rank of Lieu.. tenant-Colonel, the assistance from them would be as assistance from the Adjutant-General, which Would be that of giving,advibe and opinion but if adviseable to give Adjutants command, many of theM to his knowledge were officers of-excellent qualifica tions, and His -Majesty might give them rank ; but he was afraid 'that if words of this kind were.in serted, considerable , difficulties would arise on ac count of the point of rank, because many officers might thus be put under the command of those who were inferior to them in rank, which might create unpleasant feelings in. the service.—He expressed a wish that this matter might take the,course pointed' out for it, as he conceived, in the system of ,the Militia. Lord PASTLERE..AGH seemed at first rather inclined to think the words proposed were „neces sary; but on hearing his. Right Honorable Friend (Mr. YORKE) again, his Lordship declared himself . satisfied that the words were unnecessary.. Mr. PITT agreed that there was no diculty . whatever when the Volunteers were called out for ACtual service, that was removed by what was said by the SEckirrAity of STATE, but what he wanted' to apply his amendment to wac, that of the Voiun_ . ;ears being cAlcd or, not for atinid service, but 'permanent duty for a while, in order to improve them in their military exe:ciac- The question was, .vhether there were sofficient•Tumbers .of General Officers to command all the Volunteers who might assemble and remain On permanent duty, in all, the; dispersed kihr tho Cnuntry ? No .v he thought there would be a . . eat difficulty to find General OM- eery of this sort f,;r them all, and therefore rhe ,words! we ft necessary' for the purpose of admitting other Field Officers as well as General Officers to such. colro - oailds : and it did not ,appear to hirn that there would be arty inconvenience in pl::ciog them under either the ;ornmand of a General or other Field. Of. ficor; 4-zoli'oCg.:above the command of the Corp, ; this would not crease 3ry di . fficnlty., And this si,e cies Superintendance. was .very, Material• during the time - that the Volunteers were nut, for the,purense f :rrtilitary.improvernenu. A conversation of considerable tenet then. took place,,in which Gen. M A I TL AND, Mr,Ti the 14.'CRETARY WAR, Sir W. ELFORD, YoRKE., t _ Mr. W. Wy:r...;NE, Lord W. Russell.,, and 4 , thers ; rook part ; and :in which Mc. Se.cretary - YORKE and the SECRETARY at WAR differed in opinion, the, , one opposing the Introdu-'clion of the words vtopo , frd by : Mr. the other thinking siley, or some other words to their purport were necessary. The :CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER • • . , 09.11g , it it a:. coat on account of this variety of opinion the' sulijz a a might stand over for the pre. Gentlemen • sent, give akt opportunity of consi: derinl it . more deliberately, and,be brought for "ward for discussion on the Report ; which sugges_ :"tjcn'tlie Committee ade On the Clause being read which gives the. C4m manding Officer power to dismiss Members ffom the Volunteer Corps, r HILLIARD suggested that the Commander of a Corps should, when lie dismissed a Me m * from the Corps, assign his reasons. for it. ITT said, that he could not conceive why a Cointnander of a Corps should_be called upon to as sign his reason for dismissing a Member, because it must undoubtedly be the wish of every Commander ofd Corps to endeavour to keep the Members.Of it togethir ; and therefore it never would be done ex cept in cases of the last extremity. With respea however to the Clause then before the Committee, he did not think it was necessary, because, in his opinion, the Commander of a Corps now possessed that Power.. Mr. YO RKE contended that the Clause was ne. ecssary, becAuse it was a subject upon which he knew•thai _some doubts had existed. Mr. F'DX. said, that if the Commanding Officer had a poAer to dismiss any man from .a Corps,..it fikusrbe fir whethet it would be right td give a Cominandipg Cfri,:er absoluie power to dismiss any member of .the Corps th,, t ',h e m i g h t think proper, he was not .prepared to say ; "wile did not agree with the Right 11,:n. Gentleman that there. sv,is uu reason to apprehend ,fiat a Com. wander of a Volunteer Corps would dismiss a titan_ capriciously : it leas very easy to,suppose a c,se; in 'a limited, Corps for instance, where a Commander might Wish to-get out one ineMber in order- ti) in., traduce one whom he might think more proper or more agreeable to him. Mr. PITT said, that in that case he saw no ob. .jealon to it, becatis it would only be done wet a • man better qualified for The service, but it would he useless to cad upon die Cotiamanding Officer to give his reasons for dismissing a' man, because there was power to judge whether these reasons Were,good or not. TheC HANCELLOR''qf Me EXCHEQUER said, he would not wish to give power to the Com manding Officer to such an extent as 'was contend. ed for by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT) ; yet at the same tune he thought there ought to be more power given to the Commander of a. Corps .than was proposed by this Bill. The grounds upon which .a Member might be dismisSed were only misbehaviour,- disobedience of orders, and non.at tendance; there was no provision made for the case Of insufficiency, therefore he thought further powers :ought to be given to the Commander, though not to the extent propbled by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. FOX said, that if there was any limitation on the poWer 4: the Commanding Officer to di s miss a. Member of his Corps, he ought to be bound to assigohis.reaspn for it, because otherwise there ..v . ould be no use whatever in a limitation. It Might be said.that a Member improperly dismissed. miOtt bring hisyetion against the Officer who had so abused his power, but even a declaration could not be framed uriless the cause of dismissal was stat. ed. lie could riot at present state whether the Com mander might or. not to have spch a power, but he was convinced that if the power of the Commander was litiiited as to particular causes of dismission, he ought to be coMpelled,to assign his reasons for it. Mr. PITT sold, he was still of opinion that the Commander of the COrps had the lull power which, had : been mentioned.;"if, however, the Com rhittee were of opinion that that power ought, to be limited, there could' be no doubt but that the Ccim. mander ought to be obliged to assign his reason for dismissing a Member, because otherwise the li. mitation would be absutd. After a long conversation the Cause was amend, ed, by inSersing.the wort,,rittlter mentioning the , power of the Commander to dismiss '4' Member) " fur miscondua, disObedied i ce of ti't:drs, non-at.: tendance, insufficiency, or any other sufficient cause." Mr. RAlNE•then moved,. that the Commander of the Corps dismissing any Member should be oh, liged to assign his reason fur so doing. This pro duced a conversation of considerable length, in which Sir Jou N NICHaLtS contended that it would be : destrudive of the diseipline of• a Regiment to compel the.olECer to assign his reasons for dismissing . ; a Member, betause whq was to judge of ihe validity 'of the reasons ? WOuld it be said• that the Deputy' Lieutenants were to decide ? If that were the case, and they were ,to determine that a man had been . imoroperly.dismissed, be would .ask.what discipline' Conti subsist `in.a t ßegiment when a man was sent back after he had been dismissed by his Colonel ? Besides it should be iecoiletted, that every Volunteer Vad the•power of resigning, and therefore there was no reason to apprehend any great abuse of power in the Commanding Officer, because in point of fait : his power in the Regiment , depended upon the good opinion tile-Corps entertained of him. ; Genera' CHURCHILL proposed, that instead of giving the. power. to. the Commanding Officer of dismissing a Member, it should be left to a Court of Inquiry. . • Mr. BRAGGE said, . that -of all the measures' which had been proposed, that of a Court of Inquiry appeared to hi•rafto be the best. If however there was.to. be any appeal from the decision of a Corn. manlier of a Corps, it ought to he to the Lord• Lieu. _tenant, .and not to the Deputy Lieutenatrs. Mr.-,ROSE said, the duties of the Lord Lieu tenant, particulaily in the maritime counties, ' were, even now much too:onerous. Mr.YORKE said, he did not think that absolute power ought toile given to theCommand.ing Officer; and yet he had not wade up itisf:minti•asi rb the ques... Lion of Appeal ; he thereforeiwisbed•dot the Com mittee would , defer the consideration of this .Clause till, the Report, when Gentlemen would be enabled to consider. and_, make up their minds on the sub: jet. • • • I • Yr: FbX said; that whatever determination .the Committee might come to, _lie_ hoped they would express it cleerrly, so that, there might be no Occa sion for arather Explanatory VOlunteer Bill, and another .opinion - .from the ATTORNEY GENERAL : if it was tflougiit right= to give this power to the Commanding Officers, let the Volunteers•be told so plainly at once,; all he wanted was that the Bill should speak plainly and imp lligibly. He begged to ask the Arroxr“y .GEN ERA. whether, if a Com manding Qfficer,disMissed a Member improperly, the latter could maintain an Action for it ? The /IPEORNEY GE..VERAL replied in the affirmative. Mr. SLOANE said, he was so convinced that absolute power ought to be invested in the Com. minding OfF,cer, that he was determined to take the opinion of the Committee upon the propriety of leaving out all the Clause except the first three lines. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not think it consistent with the praCtice of that House, nor with the courtesy which Members of Parliament used to one another, to press for a decision upon a stibjeCt upon wbich'so many Mem bers had expressed doubts, and upon which it was so necessary 'that some time should be- given to consider a subjeCt of such great importance. He confessed he had not made, tip mind upon the subjeet, and he took no s,tajame,to himself for mak ing that declaration, because:it was,a Questiou of great delicacy. Mr. FOX said, if he were compelled to decide at present, he should vote against it, because it would be open to the framers of . the Bill, if ibis Clause was rejeCled,, to bring up another on the Report, or, even, in the Committee ; as.to the pre sent. Clause, every 121;14 ; seemed to „be agreed ghat o it uglit not to stand; the only Ouestion Was, whether the Committee would not now reject those words which meant nothing, in :order that they might insert others which meant something; or whether they would leave the present Clause stand ing, with the intention to . alter it on ,the Report ? Mr. PITT said, he did. not consider that the Commiite , t would by leaving out this Clause at pre sent, express any' final determination upon the sub_ Jed ; but as eve!) , body was agreed that this Clause could not remain as it was, he thought it would be more convenient to leave it out altogether, so that a fresh Clause, might be brought up on the Repom He wgit , hoWever-.lar from wishing to press the framekspf . the.B4l ; ,to a decision upon this important point at present . .., By deferring the consideration of the subject a the Report, Gentlemen might be enabled to make up their opinion upon it, and even the framers of the Bill might by that time make up their opinion, whiCh'he trusted would be less hostile to the opinion he had advanced than they now seem ed to be. • After a few words from Dt.,LAWRENCE, Mr. CAREW, .Mr. HOBHOUSE, and Sir WM. GEARY, the House divided upon the Clause. Ayes for the Clause standing part of the 'Bill as amended - rot Noes 87 • On the Clause relative to the right of Volunteers to resign, Mr. P/Trobserved, that there ought to he some time allowed for the notice of Resignation, in order to prevent per Sons from Withdrawing in consequence of nrimentary disgust ; and secondly, to afford the means tOconitnancling Officers of obtaining some other person to fill up the vacancy. After a few words from Mr. Secretary YORKE and the. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, it was agreed that fourteen days notice should be given atter the Ist of April, the power of.Reqignationin the mean time to remain uncontrnuled. Sir. ROBERT LAWLEY stated the hardship .which would result to a servant, who being inrolled in a Volunteer Corps, quitted his master's -service, and went into another part of the country, and•in. rolled himself in another Corps, whilst, in the mean tim-, he might probably be called upOn to serve (having been previously ballotted) in the Mi litia or Army of Reserve. He thought that if a., person int:oiled himself in another Volunteer Corps, within one,rnonth j k fter withdrar. , ving from the fbr mer, shOuldbe, i elcienipt:froM the effeas• of the ballot. • !evs, Mr. Secretary YORKE said, it was his intention . to propose a Clause relative to this objeet. Mr. PITT was of opinion .that aVolunteer. With drawing himself ought not (it,ballotted) to be liable to serve in the Militia •or • Ar.alj7 of Reserve until his exemption,ha) expired, becau;i: he might with. draw within the year, fur w!4lch 24. days previous exercise would entitle him to exemption. • Mr. Secretaty-YORKE„i4, the liability would only attach to the filling up of vacancies... • Sir !" 7 :,1V. WYNNE objefted to the appeal al. lowed to the • Lord LieUtena , ,t where any dispute existed as to the resignation of a' Volunteer. The Lord Lieutenant, he • said, might be forty or fifty miles distant, and an appeal to him would in that case be attended with the greatest inconvenience. He therefore moved that the appeal should be made to the Deputy Lieutenants of the Subdivision, neigh. bowing Subdivision, or one Deputy Lieutenant and one Justice of the Peace. Cin.the Clause.relative to Allowances to be grant ed to Volunteer Corps ,going upon permanent duty, Mr, PITT laving expressed a wish, th'at Mr. Sec,- YoRKE• sh'ouid._stare his ideas upon the subjed, Mr. Secretary YORKE stated it.,to be his inten. ti,on to propose, that chose CO r ps which h a d been already on perli k anerrt . duty, should. not again he• en- - titled, to ;he same.allowance on.voluntarily asst.alb- Aing.for the same purpose.. Mr. PITT objected to this arrangement. He understood that 24,000 men had been already on permanent duty—aild.he thought 2+,000 Guineas a /tilling considerations:when compared with.the be nefits to be derived 'from these Corps again assent.' Ming for the same pur pose. These Corps i which . had assembled on permanent duty, were, he believed, situate - iot,tpse parts of the'Country. which were most. Qpen and exposed, and, therefore, he thought , they ought to be encouraged by bounties to assemble again oopermanent duty, in order to ren der them still more. perfed in discipline. They had also.assembled at a time of the year when they had•not half the means of attaining. that perfedion of discipline which they might have had at another period. With this view of the.subjed, he thought that no scruple ought to be entertained about expend ing .2 or 300,000 Guineas for the attainment of so important an objed as that increase of discipline .in the Volunteer Corps, which would be attained. by their assembling on•permanent duty. No narrow economy ought to:stand in the way Of such an object so material to the Defence of the Country. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Corps which had already assembled on permanent duty, had not been called but tor the • purpose of learning discipline, but to . perform Gar rison duty ; he therefore agreed that if they assem bled again on permanent duty, they ought to receive a similar bounty. General MAITLAND thought that the bounty , given to the Volunteers for assembling on hernia. dent `duty might injure other branches of the pub lic service, as, if 'they were atling with .Regular Troops; it might tend to create discontents amongst the latter. Mr. Secretary YOPKE differed with the Hon: General, as the bounty allowed to the Volunteers was given to the Captains of, Companies to provide them with necessaries. • . . Mr: PITT could nqt see what difference there was as to. any increased advantage to the men be tween !he bountythus given to Volunteers, and that gi,:eri;to Regfilar .Troops on theft . first et,list, ing, it'4l - I,;ach,:case it . produced fur a tithe an in creased pay. He objeeted to the mode.of paying the bounty, to the Commanding ~Cecers, •as he -thought_ it ought to:he given in some substantial ~shape to the Individual called out, as an inducement to him to.attend upon such an occasion. • General MAITLAND and Mr. Pin' wiera))); Sir W. PO LTENEI ); objected to the'idea . oi r any pecuniary inducement being licl4 out to the Vi.;lun teens, as he thought 'they ought to depend uPc' n Ft ' b " lic principle, and spare the Public purse. he Mr. PITT said, he had not inferred, that ti ► Volunteers hid no other motive than money, he was riot surprized at the sentiments the Hon- rimer had expressed upon the subjeCt. The u. ine Baronet wanted to spare money, and at the s'." - e time to get a large .force, whether with disjpiiirn or without. He (lid nor doubt ,the zeal of. the (3 '7 • - lunteers,\ but there might be 'many • which rendered it necessary to give a small sulilt, l c order to strengthen that zeal; and he, thought "' a d Economy would be contemptible, which shouldslan in. the way of the Safety of the Country. Sir W. PIXLTEiCEY explained. ` Mr. WI ND! lAM inde several observations or, the point in qUestioN : much had been s aid of little importance of expence in such a 'case, ",, did not entirely' suliscribe to such a doctrine. O' great question to be considered was, whether di e objects proposed could not Le. got cheaper,?•-; Safety was a great and imposing sound—i! vv3 • a thing of the last importanee, but the Com mit " tee should recollect that the present discussioli referred only to a chance of safety, and that . but a very bad one , too ; it was also fair to consl‘' ,c, i whether the chance of• safety -they were a b°ii to purchase was worth the money to he give n li e it. There were other objeCts upon which money in question may be laid out, and wi t s far greater advantage; the expence of theseih i l y - was the grand: consideration ; it was the Ve 4l, sinews of War—let them consider that afTe r : they were always stopped by considerations of Pr; pence--things went on smoothly and well untal:„. Expence indueed hesitation. There were a Mar , t of ways in , which the sumof Money under cOnshl . ; ation, may be better applied—to the of the Regular Army for instance ; that most tive species of our force may be, in many ways c v'an9ged by Money, and in an ipcalculably,gre at proportion than the ativantages,attainable in t:;e sent ()hied. It was by no means thought in I e e , t ' t Country, that the monies under c ons ider a tio:l wi v . to be applied to . the•purposes no w state d. If ) County of Norfolk, the general understanding that the money was ,to be given for necessarle s ' t tt not as had been held, in the shape of a bountYlA-v a bohnty renewable as often as the Force s'a° o `,: re c called out. In concluding, he expressed ~ h is 1 "b ip to see the Regular Army preeludedAkopi fay",q notices, which were so l a vi s hly sticivif . red other description of the National F6rZe.'`' After a few •observations from -Mr. the provision of 4.. that a Sum not exceeding On " Guinea shall be paid by the R ece i v ers Gener a ' Bce." was agreed to by the Committee. , A few of the subsequent Clauses and Provisi on of the Bill Were, Then agreed to, withotit Observe' tion or Amendment. tha On the suggestion of Mr. Secretary Yntz" 3 Committee agreed to report Progress, the'Cha irni3 was directed accordingly, and the House . l es uin , the Committee • was directed to proceed again :Thursday. The remaining Orders were then dlsi posed of, and at twelve o'Clock the House actjour tle till to.morrow- (this day). Roe" From the LONDON GAZETTE, March 6, • crcetvn-gi f ice, Mart.. 6, -1804. cts l MEMBER RETURNED T l O SERVE IN THIS PR"' PARLIAMENT. Borough of Yarmouth, in the Irk of Wight. John D e l g arrio, of Newport, in the County of South arn il: . Esq. in the room of Henry Swann, Esq. who, sillce, f. Election for the said Borough, bath accepted the Orr'S' u n- Steward or Bailitfof His Majesty's Three Chiltern H dteds of Stoke, Desborough, and Bonenham, in the CO of Buckingham. E2V44RE D. April 28. • I. BANKRUPTCY A. V. Gameati, late of G Albemarle-s'trce,lP bookseller, at ten, at Guildhall. BiINKRUFTS. rePd er Thomas RaWlings, late of Gloucester, mercer, to $l ll.- 01 141 March is, 16, and April t i, at te n , at the Groyt io Gloucester: Attornies, Mr. Price, Glo u cester; o f WIIL Bet Gray's-Inn-square. 6 Berry,of Oakham, Rutland, Apothecary, March 1 ' 0) , live, 57, and April 17, at ten, at the Crown Inn, Oalc7cer, Attornies, Messrs. Riga and Merrifield, Carcv - ' 5l - r es• London ; •or Mr. Latham, Melton .shire. , , • • Thomas Shi p l e y, l a t e o f Walcott Somer sets hi re , coachiu 3 _ ste. • March 8, 22, and April 7, at twelve, at: the GI . eYWO., Inn, Bath. Attornies,. Mr. Chee sman , B at h ; or 51°55 ; illeasdale and Alexander, New-Inn, London. i• I rr ; WM. North, of Dewsbury-Moot, Yorkshire, cdver! c t i-la , nufaelurer, March 29, at the Wool packs Inn, 1113 _, IJ 'i" ) ; 1 1 1 ' and April 2, 17, at tile George and Dragon Inn, De,":Jessr . at. eleven. Attornies, Mr. Rylah, Dewsbury; or ' .;‘ k s es Knowles, r Boswell-court, London. Daniel Kingsbury, gof Exeter, faelor, March to, 17, 0 1 ' 010 1" 5 . 10, at eleven, at t h e Gl o b e T avern, Exeter. ilt;•ariler' Air. Flashman, Ely-Place, London ; or Mr: Exeter. ' • gar it Joseph Fell, late of Whitby, Yorkshire, rope-mak-crl„. dart 24, at four, 30, and April 17, at eleven, at the ~,tVA , u'i:rosr l 1 avern, Kingston-upon-Hull. Attornies, Al r • Hull ; or Mr. Rosser, Kirby-street, HattonGardell iv • w cll .Thomas I ohnson, of Leicester,' carpenter and joiner , vi l ite 23, at eight, 24, and April 17, at eleven, at the ; Hart Inn, Leicester. Attornies, Mr. Temple, Lei ces" or Mr. Taylor, Southampton-Buildings. garol l Christopher Alderson, of Beccles, Suffolk, grocer, „ies, 13 . , 24, and April 17, at ten, at Guildhall. Attor . " - Messrs. Dawes, Angel-court, Throgmorton.street. L o d Thomas Hopwood, of Rochdale, Lancashire, plurnboito,;; glazier, March 29, 30, and Apra 17, at eleven, at o r and Crown Ina, Leeds. Attornies; Mr. Lee, Le m Mr. Battye, - Chancery-lane, London. , Dr v tnsmas and LEIZTIF [CATES To-inorroW• .MAILS. 0011. ARA ,"°. Flannburgh 3 ----- . - ° PRICE OF STOCKS, THIS DAY AT TWELVE O ' CLOCfC. CODOIS - - - - - - THE SUN. SOL ENS QU IS DICE RE. FALSUM AUDEAT ? LONDON, MARCH 7 ,- . 180,4. " Queen's licuse • ilifqfcb 177' " Ills MAJEs - ry continues gradually to rseover—':' (Signed) " L. PEPYS. F.VILP: I4 ! . " 11. R. REYVOLDs. , t W . HEORA."°' • Are Embargo was this morning laid at the Co 5 opal ihd n Howe on all Vesselsrbound to-any othet - Port s thine of Spain, .1 3 'ciit'nga1, the . Me"dite'rianian , A od, America, and the East or VVec Indieso -