The Sun. — London, England, 1853-04-05 00:00:00

stablished church, insisted upon the learning of the catechism and the attendance at church, to which, the Disseisiers conscientiou s ly objected ; on the: Other Wand) the Dissaters,-forced as it were into opposition on this subject, united in great bodies for the purposes of education, and formed schools entirely on their own principles, and were therefore organised in a manner that enabled them to bring great power to bear against any plan of education of which those societies, chiefly composed of Dissenters, did not approve. (Hear, hear.) The edueation, however, which was carried on by these two societies produced a great number of schools all over the country, and a great increase of the means of education. About 1831 or 1832 it was proposed, for the first time, to the House of Com mons by the Government of Lord Grey, that the State should aid in the education of the poorer classes • and at the same time it was pr o p ose d th a t a sum o f 10,0001. should be given to each of these two societies for the purpose of aiding them in their efforts. This plan continued till 1839. The Treasury conducted the aid which they gave according to the rules which, as a board, it was incumbent on them to adopt. They gave grants according to the amount of the sums voluntarily subscribed, and they dis tributed their grants in the proportion of those gams : but they took no note or regard of the kind of education given, In 1839 Lord Melbourne's Government proposed a change of the system. They proposed that a Committee of Coun cil should be formed, which Committee of Council should take a more enlarged and a more discriminating view of the business of education. Holding the office of Home Secretary at the time I wrote a letter to Lord Lansdowne, whieii letter, with the answer, was laid before Parliament as the grounds of the proceeding that was then taken by the Government. It was intimated in that letter, by the command of Her Majesty that it was the wish of the Queen that the youth of this kingdom should be religiously brought up, and that at the same time the rights of con science should be respected. (Hear.) Among the proposals for encouraging the means of education, and furthering this great object there was one to found a normal or train ing school, in which persons of different religious per suasions should be educated, while at the same time there should be a chaplain of the Church of England to in struct those who belonged to that church. This pro posal excited great apprehension and alarm, and after much threatened opposition it was withdrawn by the Govern . went ; but the proposal to obtain a grant to be placed for distribution it the hands of the Committee of Council was persevered in, and by a narrow majority sanctioned by the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) In 1846 a further step was taken of very considerable importance. That step was an endeavour to improve, to a very , great degree, the quality of the education that was given. (Hear, hear.) In stating in 1839 the views which the Government took of education, I declared my opinion that the main object to be had in view was to improve the character, the know ledge, and the condition of the schoolmaster—that, as the schoolmaster is, so is the school, and that, unless we im prove his character and condition, we could hope for no great improvement of education for the poorer classes. (Hear,) The minutes agreed to in 1846 were afterward& the foundation of grants proposed to this house and carried into effect. I am not aware that since that time any great change has taken place with reference to this subject. The house will thus perceive that the education of the poorer classes in this country has been conducted, generally speaking, by the voluntary efforts of great religious bodies, while, at the same time, they have had assistance from the State, partly to increase the quantity, but chieflY, and es pecially, to improve the quality of the education • though the State—and a review of the history of particular grants will prove the fact—has not interfered materially with the nature of the instruction given. Great improvements have been made—indeed, I nay say, a great revolution has taken place—in the instruction given since the commencement of the schools under Lancaster and Bell ; but it has been ef fected at the suggestion of the different societies which manage education for the bodies with which they are con nected, and by the managers of particular schools, who have individually introduced improvements in the system. What I wish to call the attention of the house to, how ever, is the point at which we have arrived with respect to the education of the country generally what it is in amount and in character. To this, then, I invite the consideration of the house before proceeding to state what further steps we may be able to take. I re ceived only yesterday from the Registrar-General a state ment relative to the number of schools in this country, and of persons receiving education in them. The number of public day schools existing on the 31st of March, 1851, at the taking of the census, was 15,473 ' • the number of per sons belonging to the sch oo l s , or on the school books, was —males 791,548, females 616,021 ; attending at the schools on the 31st of March—males 635,107, females 480,130. The number of private day schools existing on the 31st of March, 1851, was 29,425 ; the number of persons . belonging to the schools on the school books was—males 347,694, females 353,210 • attending at the schools on the 31st of March—males 317,390, females 322,349. The proportion of scholars .on the books to the population was equal to 11.76 'per cent., or 1 scholar to 84 persons ; the propertion of scholars in attendance to scholars on the books was equal to 83 1-sth per cent. I will now state from a dif ferent source what I believe to be a very accurate estimate of the number of boys and girls belonging to the schools of the before-mentioned societies. The house will find it less than the number I have already given, which may be ac counted for partly from the circumstance of there being a number of schools unconnected with any society, and partly from the account being mode up previously to 1851, which allows for subsequent increase. The number of scholars in 1847 was— Church schools, 955,865 ; British and Foreign schools, 225,000 ; Wesleyan, 38,623 ; Congre gitional, 6,839; Roman Catholic, 34,750 ; Ragged schools, 20,000 ; total, 1,211,077. Number of schools—Church of England, 17,015; British and Foreign,, 1,500; Wesleyan, 397 ; Congregational, 89 ; Roman Catholic, 585 ; Ragged schools. 270 ; total, 19,856. The income of these schools in 1847 stood thus :—Church of England schools, 817,081/. ; British and Foreign schools, 161,250/. ; Wesleyan, 27,347/. ; Congregational, 4,901/. ; Roman Catholic, 16,000/. ; Ragged schools, 20,000/. ; total, 1,046,879/. I think I shall be rather under than over the mark if I add 50,000/. for all other schools; and this makes the amount provided for the maintenance of those schools about 1,100,000/. The sources of income are as follow :—local endowments, 69,537/. ; local subscriptions, 366,823/. ; local collections, 114,109/. ; school pence, 413,044/. ; other sources, 83,0761. - private supporters, 54,000/. There is one sum to which I am particularly desirous of calling the attention of the house—l allude to the item of 413,0001. derived from the school pence. I hive no doubt the sum here given is below the actual amount, and that we should not err in excess if we were to set down 500,000/., or half a million, as the sum actually contributed in school pence. Now, recollecting that half a century ago there were none but Sunday schools which could be called public schools for the poor, the result of these efforts is striking, and like wise satisfactory. (H ear , h ear .) Th a t th e people of this country, and, above all, the working and poorer classes, should contribute half a million a year to defray the ex pense of the instruction of their children the house cannot fail as to consider a most gratifying circumstance. (Hear, hear.) I confess it induces me to think that we ought to • direct our efforts rather to strengthen and improve the system of education which has grown up chiefly from vo luntary efforts, thin to attempt to set up anything in its place which, while disturbing the existing system, might fail to supply an equal amount of money for the education of the poor. (Hear, hear.) At the same time, we are bound to bear in mind that, although large sums are pro vided for this instruction, and a great number of persons partake of it, it is, in great part, defective and inadequate, and it becomes us to Consider whether, without disturbing the existing system, we may not do much to improve it.. I will now state to the house what has occurred, chiefly under the minutes of 1846, but partly before those minutes were issued. I have already stated to the house that the plan which was in the contemplation of the Government in 1839, of having one training school ..under State direction and control, did not meet with public favour, and was not. persevered in ; but that, instead thereof, a large number of training schools were established in different parts of the country, of which the greater part belonged to the church, and the others to various Dissenting congregations. These schools have proved to be of the greatest value and utility—indeed, it is impossible to deny what is stated by one of the most intelligent inspectors appointed by the *vernment—namely, that the dispersion of pupil-teachers to various training sehools throughout the country, to which funds are apportioned under the mi nutes of Council, is productive of more beneficial results than could have been obtained from bringing them toge ther into two or three large schools appropriated to their education as schoolmasters. The plan now in force isthis : —A boy or girl, as the case may be, who shows intelli gence and capacity for teaching is retained as a pupil, teacher in the elementary school for five years. During this time the pupil-teacher receives, under the authority of the Committee of Council, out of the grants made by this house, a salary beginning at 10/., and rising to 20/. before he leaves the school. He is then admitted into a training school or college, as some are called, where he becomes a Queen's scholar, and receives from 20/, to 25/. the first year, 25/. in the second, and 30/. in the third. There the pupil-teacher receives an education to fit him for a schoolmaster. For this purpose he not only receives the best instruction from the masters and conductors of the schools, but has an opportunity of showing, practically, his capacity for teaching. In this way a large number of persons are educated specially and properly for filling the office of schoolmaster—an office which I, long ago, declared in this house wa s no t h e ld i n su ffi c i en t estimation, but - which is now rising in just estimation, and which is cer tainly one of the most important that any person can fill in this country. (Hear, hear.) I think it an advantage that these pupil-teachers are dispersed over the country— some springing from the middle order—some belonging to the working classes, who aro proud, and justly proud, of seeing that their children, by dint of intelligence, by dint of quickness in learning, and also by reason of religious and moral conduct, have a chance of obtaining from the masters of the training colleges and , the inspectors ap pointed by the Government honourable testimony to their fitness for the office of teacher. (Hear, hear.) • Since 1844 the outlay upon training school has been 353,402/. and the grants 137,623/. The income of 21 training schools in 1851 was 44,000/. to which must be added the annual grants, amountin g to 4,334/. Up to 1851 the number of training schools established was, I believe, 40 ; but the number has been much increased since, as well as of the persons educated as pupil-teachers. In 1852 the total expenditure on these schools under the minutes of the Committee of Council, was—for augmentation of teachers' salaries, 16,9751. ; for sti pends of ppil-teachers and gratuities to schoolmasters for their instruction, 79,587/. ; towards the building of training schools, 15,996/. ; for the support of training schools, 17,5451.—making a total of 130,1031. In this way , great good may be achieved, and the result of this expen diture is immediately to raise the character and position of the schoolmaster. (Hear.) The inspectors appointed by the Government bear the strongest testimony to the value of these schools. I will not weary the house with quotations from the reports of these gentlemen, but will content myself with stating that Mr. Moseley, one of the most distinguished of them, bears the warmest testimony in favour of the training schools, in which he is supported by all his colleagues. Only to-day I read 'the testimony given by the principal of the training school at Chelten ham, in which this gentleman states that he has watched the progress of the system for two years, and hears willing evidence in favour of the advantages resulting from it. An examination is likewise carried on under the direction of the Committee of Council, both of those who have been ar.o those who desire to become schoolmasters, and to whom if approved, certificates are granted. About 1,900 men and 900 women have obtained certificates of merit. A portion of these are now exercising the duties of teachers hut 4 should say that a b ou t 2,700 of those who have re,. ceived certificates of merit continue to teach. I now come to a question which has been discussed with groat ability, and which has excited great interest throughout the cour t : try - -namely, what shall be done.with this system ? Shall continue to add to its efficacy -by augmenting the we amount of aid given by the State ? Shall we abandonof altogether ? Shall we adopt another system i n place • I will dispose of the la st two queries before proceeding to explain the proposition which it is my duty to submit to the house. It is urged by some persons of considerable talent that the State ought not to interfere at all in the religious and moral training of the people of this country, ' but that this matter ought to be left entirely to the volun tary efforts of those who choose to undertake the task. I can never subscribe to the reasoning by which this position is supported. I never can admit that any principle or any scruple should prevent the State from assisting in the reli gious and moral training of the people, when it is obviously the great duty of the State to preserve peace and to enforce the observance of the rules of morality. (Hear, hear.) Take the case of a young man cast into gaol for some act of theft. He is told by the gaoler that he has offended against the laws of the country : he is told by the chaplain of the prison that he has offended against the laws of God. Should he ask why he had not been instructed before with respect to these matters, would it be a sufficient answer to that young man to say, " The State has power to punish— it can commit you to prison, and even give you religious instruction while there ; but there is some principle or scruple which prevents it at , any previous period from giving you the means of avoiding the punishment you suffer ?" But that question was agitated very fully, I think, in 1847, and the house decided by a very considerable majority in favour of the aid which was then sought by the Govern ment-for the purpose of promoting education. Since that time it'has not appeared to me that the opinion of this House has been changed, and it certainly does not appear that the country agree with those who support what is called the voluntary system. (Hear, hear.) Various reli gious communions—for instance, the Established Church, the Wesleyans, the Roman Catholics, and the British and. Foreign School Society, comprising in the schools in con nexion with it many of the various denominations of Dis senters—have received the aid which was given them under the minutes of the Committee of Council. There are other parties, indeed, belonging to the same denominations as those who receive the aid, especially the Baptists and Con gregationalists-, who refuse the aid and maintain the vo luntary comparedt ypne wt ip t l h e. tlhteieseeuveitdryentg,enheorellwevy7 that these latter, a form rather an in considerable minority, and therefore it cannot be expected that this House would so far change its course as to lean to the arguments used in support of the voluntary system. But there is another system which has been proposed for adoption, and which has been put forth as a system which ought to influence the State in its decisions on this subject —I mean the proposal for the establishment of what are called secular schools. Now, I do not wish to misrepresent the arguments which are employed upon this subject, and I will endeavour to state as fairly as I can the views put forth by those who are the advocates of this system. If I should be so unfortunate as not to have comprehended the system, I have no doubt there are many present who will set me right, and place before this house the arguments in favour of the plan they contend for. What I understand to be said in support of this system is this :—The country is divided into various religious communions, flittering greatly from one another, and it has been impossible, by . any scheme hitherto suggested, to bring the children of persons belonging to these different communions into one school, and induce 'them to accept of religious instruction there ; but it would be very possible to give them secular instruction—instruction in reading, writing, geography, arithmetic, science, and art—and to leave the question of religious instruction to the ministers and pastors of the different communions, and thus, by treating religion as a thin.. apart from the school, would be avoided the expense, difficulty, and discord which are created byhaving so many schools. Now, if that be the proposal, there seem to me to be difficulties sufficiently great to prevent the adoption of such a system. We must consider, surely, when we are assist ing in the education of children, and especially in the edu cation 'of the children of the poor of this country, that the school is the place where they are to learn the rules for their conduct in life,—those rules of religion and morality by which they are in future to be regulated. Such being the case, it is obvious that, according to this plan of secular instruction, there would Eqpt be sufficient time or opportunity allowed for the clergy of the church of Eng land or the ministers of _other denominations to instruct the children in religion, and consequently one very great and important end of education, I should say the most import ant of all, would not be sufficiently attended to. (Hear, hear.) The advocates of the secular system of instruction see this difficulty, and it appears to me, while ' no doubt, many differ among themselves, that the most able of them take a mode of obviating the objection, which certainly de serves the utmost consideration of this house before any system of the kind should be adopted. The scheme is deve- loped by many of the writers on the subject, especially by Mr.Combe, whose name, no doubt, will be well remembered by the house. What he holds out is this-- that very imper fect views are taken with respect to religious subjects ; that very often those rules which the Almighty has laid down for our conduct in this life, so far from being fol lowed, are wilfully or blindly set at nought ; and that it is the business of the schoolmaster to teach those laws of social economy and of physiology by which the people of this kingdom may be better instructed in canducting them selves so as to enable them to avoid that course of vice and misery into which too many of them fall. It will, however, be obvious to the house that this is a proposal different from what was the apparent proposal, as at first put forth, of the advocates of the secular system. The proposal, as it stands nakedly in the first declaration of their views, amounts to this—give exclusive secular in struction in the schools, and leave religion to be taught elsewhere by the ministers of religion. The second view of the subject, however, is this —there is a natural theology which should be taught in the schools, but Christianity should not be taught there. (Hear, hear.) Now, that appears to me a view certainly more extensive, an d un doubtedly far more dangerous, than that which the advo cates of secular education first set out with. My belief is that the people of this country acted with a right instinct, when, upon associatingitogether and devoting their money for the purpose of education, they declared openly that there should be a religious training in the schools, and that that religious training should comprise all the great doctrines of Christianity. (Cheers.) Therefore, neither I nor the present Government can b e a party to any plan for proposing a secular mode of teaching instead of that which is at present established. I come, then, to the question as to what should be done under the present system. I do not, owing to the difficulties which I mentioned at the outset, think it possible to unite throughout the country the children of persons of different religious communions in one plan of educa tion. There are obviously very great difficulties with re spect to those requirements which are made by the Na- tional Society on the part of the church, and with respect to requirements, too, which are naturally made by the Dissenters on the part of their communities. With respect to the National Society, it is pas t of their rules—l do not say whether it will be changed or not—that every child at tending their schools should learn the church catechism they had no aifficulty so long as they confined themselves to the Atc,hoots under which the minutes of Council might receive assistance ; but, when they endeavoured to frame a scheme of their own, for new and further schools, they were met by- the difficulty that all should receive the bene fit of assistance. Now, the resolution to which the asso ciation had come, made it an absolute and essential condi tion that the Scriptures should be read in the authorised version, leaving, however, the Roman Catholics to use the Dow version. But it was to be expected, and it did oc cur, that the Roman Catholics demurred altogether to the religious instruction to be given in such schools, and they, therefore, formed a minority dissenting from that plan. Now I think the same difficulty would be found in any attempts to frame any other plan, and we should not therefore propose that the power of the town councils should go further than the appointment of a committee, which should distribute the sums obtained from the rate according to the minutes of the committee of Privy Coun cil. The committee to be - appointed by the town councils would be formed partly by members of the council, and partly of other persons resident in the town, who would be able to obtain accurate information with respect to the schools, and see that all the conditions required by the State were complied with in those schools. I propose to ask for leave to bring in a bill to carry these into effect. I may add that we propose also that in these schools a parent should have the power of withdrawing his child from the religious instruction to which he might be subjected. It is obvious, however, on the one hand, th a t th e paren t s would not their children to a school where the reli gious instruction should be repugnant to the parent ; and on the other hand a school which had strict rules that every child should receive that religious instruction, would at once refuse admission to such a child. All will be done, therefore, by a clause which will declare the general prin ciple that the parent may have the power of such with drawal. Seeing that such a plan could not be generally adopted in this country, and for this plain reason, that in many parishes in the country there could only be one school, we propose by a minute, which has been for' some time under consideration, but which is not yet fully ma tured, to allo w in certain instances to places which have not municipal corporations a certain sum per head for each child attending the school. It will be neces sary, however, to confine any such grants to those schools wh ere the schoolmaster has obtained a certificate of ability. That minute, when its provisions shall have been fully matured, will be laid upon the table, and the house, before coming to any vote upon it, will have ample opportunity afforded for duty considering it. (Hear.) The committee of council have likewise considered the pro priety of making additional grants for buildings in some poor places where great difficulty exists in obtaining a suf ficient sum for establishing schools. I should say that the schools generally throughout the country may be divided into three classes. First, those in which the education is already sufficient, and where it is also of a sufficiently good quality; secondly, where the education is deficient both in quantity and quality; and thirdly, where education has been entirely neglected. The schools of the first class are already considerable number; those of the third class are rapidly diminishing, and are certainly not very numerous; but it is the second which constitutes the largest class, and which requires the largest amount of aid and assistance. I have now stated what is proposed to be done by the bill as regards a school-rate, and by the minutes of council with respect to building. There is, however, one subject of great importance, and with regard to which several bills have lately been introduced into this house—l mean the very large amount of property which has been left by cha ritable bequests, and which now forms the income of pub lic charities. (Year.) Attention was called to this subject many years ago by Lord Brougham'; and among the varied labours which he has performed, and the many splendid efforts which he has made, I know of no object more use ful to which he has turned his attention ; and I know of no arguments more striking than those which he has used upon the subject of public charities. In 1848 a commis sion was appointed upon the subject, several commissions have been appointed since that period, the last being ap pointed, by the Crown, when I had the honour of holding the office of Secretary in the Home-office, and finally made its report in 1837. This commission made its report in 38 folio volumes. They reported that the number of charities amounted to 28,840, and they stated the aggregate income of the charities, upon which they reported, to be 1,209,395/ They likewise ated that the annual income of the endow. meats for the purpose of education was 312,0001. Now, with respect to many of these charities, various evils have been found to exist. With regard to a great number of them, the money has been left to individuals, the trustees having been careless in recovering them, and they have been lost in the lapse of time from negligence and inat tention. With respect to others of them, the money has been dispersed by litigation. One instance is mentioned in the report of a sum of 3,0001., which, after a law-suit of a considerable length of time—conducted as law suits were in our Court of Chancery—left a residue of only 151. a-year. There are unfortunately too many instances of the same kind. Many of these charities are of exceed ingly small amount, and they have• been left for purposes which are not now found to be useful. The charities not amounting to 51. a-year are 13,331 in number, and those of Si. and under 101. are 4,641 in number, making a total of 17,272 under 101. per annum. Upon the other hand, there are several which have increased far beyond the ex pectation of those who founded them. There are of cha rities of 2,0001. and under 3,0001. twenty-four 2 • of 3,0001. and under 4,0001. ten ; of 4,000/. an d un d er 5,0001. four ; of 5,000/. and under 6,0001 two; of 8,0001. and under 9,0001. three • and there are also one each of th e diff e rent sums of 10,0001., 15,0001., 20,0001., 25,0001., 30,0001., and 35,0001. This is a subject which, having attracted the at tention of the public, was sure to be brought under the consideration of Parliament and of those who held office in the High Court of Chancery. Lord Lyndhurst, from 1842 to 1845, introduced, I think, three or four different bills on the subject, which did not, however, pass through Parlia— ment. Lord Cottenham, in the same way, four ti mes in troduced bills relating to these charities, and last year a bill was under consideration, proposed by the last commis sioners of charities appointed in 1849, which contained many useful provisions. Some of these provisions went to obtain more accurate and complete accounts of the value of these charities, their amount, the prevention of loss by litigation, by declaring and enacting that, without the au thority of the Attorney-General, no suits should be insti tuted. Other parts of the measure went to give the power of exchanging lands and granting building leases, working mines, and various other powers, which would tend to make property of this kind more valuable. We propose to adopt these provisions, but we propose to vary the power to which this discretion is to be given. It appears to us hat there are many matters totally distinct, and whit} and sh - Ould attend the church on the Sunday. It is obvi- ought to be placed under distinct management. There is outs that this rule must be intended to apply only to the first a judicial power, which would be required to declare children belonging to parents who are members of the whether any of these trusts have been abused, and to take church, because, if you asked questions in the catechism of methods for remedying obvious abuses against the will of a child not baptised—if you pretended to ask him his name, the founder. Secondly, there is a power which is that of and who gave him that name, it would be manifest false- administration, or rather of superintending the adminis hood, and almost blasphemy, for the child to say that his tion, of trusts, which it appears to us s h ou ld b e differently godfather and godmother gav e it hi m , w h en i n t ru th, h e exercised. It was proposed last year that there should be had neither godfather nor godmother. But, even if that a body of three persons named by the Lord Chancellor, two difficulty were got over—even if the National Society and of whom were to receive salaries, and the third might also all the managers of schools b e l ong i ng t o th e Ch urc h were receive a salary, if it s h ou ld be thought necessary to to say that they would dispense, in the case of some chil- give it. There is no reason to think that persons so dren, with the rale with respect to learning the catechism, appointed, without the superintendence of Parliament, and would not require their attendance at church, still I would do otherwise than exercise their power merely so do not think that in the present condition of things the that there should be no abuse of the powers given by the great difficulty would then be at all removed. The house founder of the charities, and in taking care that no unnes will see, if it gives its attention to the subject, that here is sary litigation should take place. Now, we think it de a very great question involved, in which the Protestant sirable that there should be an authority which should Dissenters of this country naturally take the deepest ipte- have the power of proposing and enforcing amended rest. In reference to ecclesiastical affairs, we have an schemes for the disposition of charitable property for such established church, with its endowments, and the Sove- useful purposes as the founder himself might wish to see reign of the country belonging to it, with the exercise of them applied to. We therefore propose that there should her supremacy, and various laws making a distinction be- be vested in a committee of the Privy Council, to be ap tween the Established Church and bodies who belong to pointed by her Majesty, with the Lord President at its other communions. But when we come to the question of head, a general power, besides those which I have already political and civil rights, then, on the contrary, we have mentioned, to propose schemes for varying trusts in respect perfect equality. (Hear, hear.) Equality of civil and to those charities. We should propose that with respect political rights has been established with very few excep- to those schemes which should meet the approbation of tions, and it is now the rule ; and for the last 20 years the trustees, that they should be adopted, and should, there has been no doubt on the minds of the great majority after being placed on the record, take effect in the same of the Legislature that there should be civil and political manner as the original trusts. There is a clause similar in equality with regard to the subjects of this country, to effect to this in the bill proposed last year. We propose whatever communion belonging . (Hear.) The Ch urc h i n also to give a power, similar to that which has been con ancient days used to pretend to have complete dominio n ferred by Parliament in one or two instances of late years, over the education of the children of this country ; and I that in cases where the trustees do not consent to the remember Lord Derby, in this house, quoting an act of scheme, a bill should be introduced into this house, and Henry IV. to that effe c t ; b u t s i nce the accession of the the assent of Parliament should be asked to the improved house of Hanover education in this country has been per- administration• of these funds. It appears to me that fectly free. When, therefore, there is a question of estab- great advantages may be gained by the exercise of a power lishing and supporting by the State a system of education, of this kind. With respect to many of those small chari- I believe the Protestant Dissenters would most naturally ties giving six loaves at Christmas, and different small be and most justly say that the rule to be established on this quests of that kind, they are generally of no use to the' subject should not be the rule of your ecclesiastical place where they are given, and in many cases they are laws, but the rule of your civil and political laws; it extremely noxious • they produce, in the majority of cases, must be the rule of equality, and n o t o f ascen d ancy . If mere ly a d a y o f feasting and of waste, they induce idle this, then, were the case, it leads to this most serious and profligate persons to go to some particular parish for difficulty with respect to parish schools—that whatever the purpose of obtaining the benefits, and the benevolent indulgence or whatever toleration you might give to the 1 views of the founder of the charity is utterly frustrated. children of Dissenters, that would not satisfy the dissent- Of course, the house would be very jealous of giving any ing body, because there would still remain this source power upon such a subject, which would seem to interfere of discontent. Accordingly, when an attempt to establish unduly with the intentions of the founders of charities. a combined plan was made, not many years ago, by my , At the same time here is a great public advantage to be right hon. friend the present Home Secretary—an attempt gained, and here is a body which might be constituted to which I should heartily have wished to see succeed—it was; which might be entrusted, under as many guards and found, by the petitions presented to this house, and from , checks as Parliament should think proper, the power of the discussions at public meetings, that a great agitation endeavouring to extract out of these charities the power of prevailed among the Dissenters, and that agitation was obtaining objects of great utility—such, for instance, as sufficient to preclude all hope of the success of the sche me . that of the improved education of the people. (H ear .) My But it is further to be said with respect to the general' noble friend the Lord President will ask to introduce a bill establishment of one scheme of education, supposing it into the other house, containing the views of the Govern-: were to be supported by a rate, that there is the difficulty t meat upon this subject, and I trust that to whomsoever arising out of the strong repugnance to the imposition of the power may be given, or whatever may be the extent rates for such an object, in which the whole of the corn- of those powers, that we shall at last be able, after munity cannot agree. Consequently, as the right hon.' ten years of attempted and frustrated legislation, in gentleman oppoSite, the m em b er f or Midh urs t , sa id l ast th e course o f th e presen t year to l eg i slate upon a subject of year, there would be, if a school-rate were imposed in every this vast importance in such a manner as to improve the parish, something like the agitation in reference to it, as distribution and management of these charitable funds. We now often prevails in reference to the church-rates. (Hear, propose that charities not having incomes above 301. a-year hear.) There is, however, it appears to us, one kind of should be carried to the county courts, and those above that community in this country which might obtain the means' sum either to the Master of the Rolls or the Vice-Chancellor, of supporting schools by rates—l allude to those towns who will have special powers intrusted to them on the sub which have a corporate organisation, and, under act of Par-: ject. I have now stated generally what are the views of her liament or by ancient charter, manage through municipal: Majesty's Government upon the question of theeducation of institutions the concerns of the locality. In towns of this' the working and poorer classes of the country. The man kind there is not any necessity for establishing schools of which will be asked appears in the estimates, and before one. kind. There are in these towns, generally, schools , that vote is taken we shall be able to explain fully the mi belonging to various communions, all of which either ante which we shall have adopted upon the subject to which receive, or might receive, some support by the minutes of I have already referred, and it will then be for the house to the Committee of Council. It appears to us, therefore, consider whether it will grant the sum asked for or not. There that it is possible, at all events, to give power to the cor-' are some other topics upon which I wish to touch, because porations and municipal councils of such towns to vote a' they are akin to these subjects, though Ido not propose to rate for the purpose of improving education therein. But, enter at length into them. The first is, that the speech in so doing, we should think it necessary to impose certain of her Majesty, delivered at the commencement of the conditions, in order to prevent evils which otherwise session, has occupied the attention of the Government. Thl might arise. In the first place, we think it right that two- earnest deliberation of the house was in that speech re thirds of a town council should agree in the imposition of quested to the consideration of the subject of the promotion the rate. If a mere majority had the power to impose the of science and art. It is proposed by the Board of Trade rate, and the majority should happen to be small, that that the same authoritygranted for the department of schools would give rise tb incessant attempts to overturn the pre- of design, and for the purpose of science, should be united vious decision, and to probably great dissentions in the under ohe depa r t men t, t o b e ca ll e d " The Department of locality ; but if two-thirds of the representatives of the Science and Art," under the Board of Trade. Without any community gave their voice in favour of the imposition of very large expenditure, it •will be found that there will be the rate, their decision would probably be generally in means of opening museums for scientific objects, and also accordance with the sense of the town. In the next place, for a museum of art, which for the present will be placed in we think it necessary that the rate should be applied, not Marlborough House. There will also be the means provided to establish schools in substitution of former schools, but for giving instructions on technical questions relating to art in aid of the voluntary efforts of individuals, and of the and manufactures, calculated to improve and cultivate the school pence given by the parents of children. We should taste as applicable to manufacturing purposes. Dr. Lyon propose some such scheme as this—that the rate might be Playfair will be the inspector of the scientific, and Mr. applied to pay 2d. in the week for the scholars, provided Cole of the department of art, and under their care and 4d. or sd. were contributed from other sources. We should superintendence it is hoped that great advantage will be propose, likewise, that the schools which should receive this obtained. What more immediately concerns that which I assistance should be schools which, under the minutes of have to state to the house this evening is, that it is pro- Council, might receive assistance, and which, consequently, posed by the Department of Art, instead of sending to have for years received the sanction of Parliament. (Hear.) , certain schools iu this country that aid which has usually I should be afraid of great difficulty and dissension if we been granted, that models and particular forms useful for were to go beyond a rule of this kind, and I found my instruction in drawing should be furnished as parts of the opinion very much on what occurred in Manchester in the grant in cases where such assistance is required, for the par past year. It is well known that a number of goalie+ pose of improving their pupils in drawing and in a know men, most benevolent, and entitled to the highest ledge of the principles of art. (Hear.) I said that I praise for their exertions, associated together for the par- I would state upon this occasion what were the general views pose of establishing a rate for improving education in that of her Majesty's Government with respect to the reports of place. When they endeavoured to collect the opinions of i the commissions which were appointed by the Crown on the town a very great number of ratepayers—some might , the subject of the two universities. The house is well aware dispute whether they amounted to the majority of ratd- that these commissions have presented reports of a most payers, but they appeared to b e so — assen t e d t o th e pr i n . va l ua bl e ki n d , sett i ng forth in great detail the history of ciple of . rating. When they came, however, to consider ; those universities, giving a great deal of e v id ence o f a m o s t what ha n d o f sc h oo l s should receive assistance, I believe instructive and valuable nature, and themselves suggesting various reforms in the universities. I will not state any particular scheme which it is the intention . of the Govern ment to adopt. On the contrary, her Majesty's Government are of opinion that they would not fulfil their duty in the best manner, if they proposed any particular scheme for the adoption of the house until the matter had been much more maturely considered, and until the universities had had the opportunity of giving their suggestions and their ob servations, and adopting such measures as they may think it desirable to adopt on the subject of the changes sug gested. Speaking, however, of the University of Oxford, there are in the first place some points upon which the commissioners have touched, with respect to which I think it - is but fair that I should state what are the views of her Majesty's Government. The first subject with reference to Oxford, and which is of the highest importance, is the constitution of the government of the university itself. (Hear, hear.) We are of opinion that very considerable change is required in the constitution of that university. (Hear,i hear.) We think it desirable that there should exist a _greater power of introducing into the governing body of the university persons who, in the station of pro fessors, are engaged in teaching in the university, and into the several colleges those who are engaged in teaching in those colleges. What should be the particular form of that governing body is a matter upon which, as I have in timated, we are not yet prepared to decide. What we say is, that it is a subject to which we shall look, to which our attention will be directed, and upon which we shall be ready to receive any suggestion which may come from the university itself. But if these suggestions either do not come, or if they should fail to meet what we think the cir cumstances of the case require, it will then be necessary to cbme to Parliament and submit to it proposals of our own on the subject. (Hear, hear.) There is another matter upon which our opinion is no less decided with respect to the principle, and that is, a more full and free admission to the teaching of the university. My belief is that these universities were intended, and ought to bo treated, as in stitutions for the benefit o f th e country, and that their ob jects ought to be fulfilled more completely than they have been of late years. For this pm - pose' I believe it will be necessary that there should be a power of admission, and of attending the teaching of the university, and of acquir ing those privileges by means other than those of belong ing to, or residing in, colleges. (Hear, hear.) Whether the recommendations of the commission on the University of Oxford, or the different recommendations of the com mission on the University of Cambridge, should be taken on the subject, I will not now pretend to decide. Any change which shall effect the object, and effect it without endangerinc , the discipline of the university—because that point must be kept carefully in mind—will be favourably considered by us, and will be one which we shall be ready to adopt. (Hear, hear.) Another subject in connection with the present state of the University of Oxford is the amount of restriction which is placed upon the attainment of fellowships and emoluments in the university. (Hear.) Many of those restrictions, it is true, claim for their origin the statutes of the university, or the wills of the founders, but we have to consider that if these statutes and these wills were to be literally obeyed, we should have, not the present state of the universities, but a state very much different, and one which it would be impossible to maintain. I will not upon this point express any opinion as to the re commendations of the commissioners —whether all restric tions as to place of birth, or the county to which the persons belong, should be abolished, or whether persons belonging to that locality cceteris paribus should have the advantage —all I say is that merit, industry, study, and ability ought to have their due reward. (Hear, hear.) I may say fur ther, in respect to another topic of great importance, that a greater part o f th e i ncom es and reve nues o f the colleges should be devoted to purposes of instruction, such as to giving additional incomes to professors, or applied in other modes most conducive to giving instruction in the univer sities. No doubt, we must keep in mind on this subject, as in other trusts, the purposes for which they were created. At the same time, I do not think it possible to lose sight of the times in which many of those foundations were made, and the views entertained by those who founded them—views which were entertained naturally and pro perly according to the belief of the times, and, perhnps, longeraccording app t l o y the tlo circumstances e c u present s t e a n n t c e p s e oro d ft h . e F or times , instance, but which t no was thought at one time that it was most desirable that a num ber of studious men, perhaps of the ecclesiastical profes sion, should devote their time to study and to prayer, and that they should remain in seclusion from the rest of the world. Far be it from me to state that those who devoted their means and their estate to that purpose took a mis taken view of the benefits which might thereby be ob tained. I believe that at a time when no man's house was safe, when armed knights were frequenting lanes and val leys to save the peace of the country, and there was no se curity for life or property, the sacred character given to these institutions enabled the men thus secluded to pre serve the works of learning; it enabled them to preserve those great classical works which at the time of the revi val of letters were found in the monasteries and convents, and which, amid the din of arms and amid a state of ig norance which might have led to barbarism, yet kept alive that sacred flame rrom which we have derived our civilisa tion. Far be it from me, therefore, to say that they were short-sighted, and still less to say they were not benevo lent. But the circumstances of the present day are utterly altered in that respect ; and those same men who, ani mated by the love of knowledge, made those foundations, would probably, if they lived in these times, be the first to say that instruction of another kind ought to be given. (Hear, hear.) There is another view, likewise, which they might have entertained with regard to the localities to which they confined their endowments. It might very well be that a man of property, seeing that his county was in a state of ignorance, and entirely deprived of the light of letters and science, might have thought that if he found ed in the University of Oxford or in the University of Cambridge a fellowship devoted to the inhabitants of that county, it would turn their minds to the acquisition of knowledge, and thereby he might increase the general cul tivation, and so civilise the county. Ido not say that was not a wise view ; but what I say is, that with our pres en t means of communications a nd w ith the present circulation of knowledge through the country, a reservation which might be wise at the commencement would be exceedingly unwise at the present moment. (Hear.) These, then, are four of the objects which we shall endeavour to keep in view with regard to the University of Oxford :—First, the improve ment of the governing power or body ; another, a larger admission of students without belonging to a particular college ; third, the removal or modification of the restric tions which now exist in regard to the attainment of the rewards and honours of the university to a particular county or locality; and fourth, the application of some part of the endowments and property of the colleges to the purpose of instruction in the university, which are now not given for any purposes of instruction whatever. Another object which I think we should have in view is, that when fellow ships are attained by students, the distinction should not be held for life, but only for a certain period. Thus we shall have a constant stimulus to and a constant system of promotion. (Hear.) Sir, I will not go into the recom mendations that have been made by the commissioners ap pointed for the University of Cambridge. They recom mend, in a similar spirit, that those restrictions which I have mentioned should no longer exist, but they state that the university itself is continually, from time to time, adapting its institutions to the present state of knowledge and the present state of the country, and they expect that further improvements will be made in the same direction. They say that they think it would be a great misfortune if the University of Cambridge should in any respect fal short of that which is required from it by the most en. lightened view of the public interests, and the greatest ad. vintage of the people of this country. At the same time, with a natural pride in the university to which they be long, they say they are happy to think such has been the case, and they further think that it will continue to be the case hereafter; at the same time they state their firm be lief that the interposition of Parliament will be required in order to enable the Uniliersity of Cambridge to make all those reforms and improvements which, in their opinion, ought to be made. (Hear.) Now, sir, may I venture to say that the persons whom I had the honour of advising the Crown to appoint to the commissions of Oxford and Cambridge were men of very great distinction ; they were, men who themselves had attended those universities—men who had attained to the greatest honours, some of them in science and others in classical learning ; and that they ap proached the subject with that reverence for those great institutions which such men were sure to feel ? When, therefore, such men as these advise such extensive altera tions, and accompany them with such observations, I think it is the part of Parliament, without reserve, and waving every objection, to consider their different proposals, and to legislate for the improvement of the Universities of Ox ford and Cambridge. (Hear.) I trust I have made it clear to the house that we do not propose at the present time, or without giving full means to the universities of considering all that we ought to do, to introduce any bill to Parliament on these subjects. At the same time we shall keep in view these objects which we think essential. (Hear, hear.) If the universities adopt them, and carry them into effect as far as they can, and apply to Parliament for powers to carry them out still further, we shall be happy to see them arrive at that consummation ; but if they should not do so, if there should be persons who are still deterred by their prejudices from making any, even the most useful alterations, it will then be our duty, as the Government, not to hesitate, but to bring in such measures as we may think absolutely necessary. (Hear, hear.) Now sir, having ventured to trouble the house upon this important subject, I feel that, wide as the field is which I have had to go ove., it has ;been quite impossible for me to give an ade quate notion to the house, either of the present state of these questions, or of the measures which the Government mean to propose. (Hear, hear.) But I have a firm belief that the people of this country, who themselves have founded these institutions—that the people of this country who, in the course of the last half century have carried day schools and the instruction of the poorer classes to such an extent as I have shown—will supply any inade quacy which I may have shown, and will even supply any defects they may find in our legislation. I feel that, with regard to the great and most important subjects, that will happen which we have seen happen in the material world and in physical science. We have seen that which beggars have passed unnoticed, and which was disregarded converted into the means of giving brilliant light in our streets and our houses. We have seen those powers of nature which were usually considered noxious and destruc tive employed to carry to distant regions in a few minutes intelligence which a century ago would require weeks, and even months, to convey. We have seen other wonders of physical science and physical study astonish, almost every year, the generations in which we have lived. I feel per suaded that whatever may be the state of society in this country at present, that there is a power at work which will draw up from the dregs and the destructive part of that society the means of establishing religion and mo rality upon a still firmer basis, and which will make reli gion and morality the crown of our social institutions. (Hear, hear.) I feel, then, that this is even a nobler task, that it is even a still greater achievement than those won ders which the acquisitions of science have enabled us to effect. (Hear, hear.) Imploring, then, this house to pay the utmost attention to all these subjects, to take no word of mine as sufficient for the measures that we have to pro pose, but begging them to keep in view these great objects upon which the future happiness and welfare of this coun try must depend, I shall conclude by asking for leave to bring in a bill to improve and extend the education of the people in England and Wales. (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUME contended that secular education was the only system of education i;hioh could be generally accepta ble in this country, and that the noble lord's plan would be a failure if he intended to combine with it the teaching of religion. The principle of the division of labour should be applied to education as well as to all other pursuits—the schoolmaster communicating secular knowledge, and the clergyman that which was religious. He could not com prehend why a schoolmaster should be well able to train a boy up to the proper discharge of his social and political duties. Times were certainly altered now, but when he attended school he recollected that no distinctions were made. There were as many sects then as there were now, and the schoolmaster taught them all alike. No religion was taught except just those points to which nobody could object • the Catechism was the subject of instruction on Saturdays. That system worked well, but he was sure th n at o ehiftirnee of improvement. nobleloadhere A adhered to his the someprinciple time, there he would be was greatly obliged to the nohle lord for having introduced the THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, 1853 subject. Many people thought, as he did, that he would make but little progress, still he had grappled with the question and deserved credit for it. But he should have gone further, and have stated the means by which he pro posed to bring all people to agree on the subject. That was the whole difficulty of the case, and he clad loft it as he found it. Schools might be increased, the superintendence extended, and more money granted. By such means the noble lord might extend education in some degree, but so long as he mixed up the religious part of it, which ought to be the duty of the clergyman, with the secular part, which ought to be the duty of the schoolmaster, he never could produce the general benefit which he intended. He (Mr. Hume) would rate every parish and every acre of land in the country for the instruction of the people in their moral and social duties ; but the teaching of peculiar religious tenets was not a subject for which a tax ought to be levied. He approved of the observations of the noble lord concern ing small educational charities ; but he advised him that half measures—doing a little in one town and a little in another—would not do. Let all these institutions be made useful for their purpose. (Hear, hear.) He w ou ld no t fur ther discuss the questi on , but when the bill was ac t ua lly before the house h e should take an opportunity of pointing out some of its defects. (Hear, hear.) Mr. GIBSON said it would be premature to offer an opinion upon the plan propounded by the noble lord until the bill itself was on the table, and the house had had an opportunity of considering its provisions. But inasmuch as he (Mr. Gibson) was with other members engaged in an inquiry before a committee into the practicability of sup porting schools in towns governed by municipal corpora tions by means of rates, such schools to be of a denomina tional character, he wished, with all respect, the Govern ment had delayed legislation upon this particular branch of the subject until they had the report of the committee. (Hear, hear.) He was himself so anxious that something should be done for the education of the' people that he should be backward in throwing obstacles in the way of any plan : nevertheless, ho doubted exceedingly whether they could succeed in this attempt to transfer the duties of the clergy of various persuasions to the schoolmaster. (Hear, hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether two thirds of any town council could be got to agree to teach all forms of religion in their respective boroughs, and to support such religious teaching by public rates. (Hear, hear, hear.) He very much doubted whether they would get town councils to agree to train up children in the Ro man Catholic religion, in the Jewish religion, and in various forms of Christianity. He feared that in making such a proposition they were embarking in difficulties which he saw no means of overcoming. At this prelimi minary stage he would - no t d e t a i n th e house by any general remarks on the subject of education ; but, as a member of the Church of England, he thought there was one import ant omission in the noble lord's speech. The noble lord had not informed the house what had become of the mi nute of Privy Council of June 12, 1852, the principle of which was to transfer from laymen of the Church the ma nagement of Church schools, in moral and religious mat ters, to the clergy of the diocese. The Government of which the noble lord was a member in 1836 distinguished themselves greatly, and made a great step in advance, by enabling the laymen of the Church to manage Church schools in conjunction with the clergy, and it was a retro grade step on the part of the Government of Lord Derby to undo the decision of Parliament in former times to give something like exclusive jurisdiction to the clergy. He therefore wished to ask the noble lord whether that mi nute of council had been rescinded which enabled public money to be, given to Church schools in cases where the clergyman had the power of dismissing the schoolmaster on other than religious grounds, in cases in which the clergy man had the power of deciding what .books should be used upon other than religious grounds, and in those cases which were provided under the new form of trust-deed that had been allowed to be introduced for the first time by the late Government. The question was one of vital consequence. Although it might not affect existing schools it involved a great principle—the principle of laymen su perintending the education of the young ; and he could never, as a Churchman, consent to go back one iota to transfer from lay committees of management any power they had hitherto enjoyed to the sole use of the clergy. Lord Derby said the minute would not be acted upon until Parliament had consented to the principle ; now, as the subject of education was before the house, a fitting oppor tunity had arisen of askin g h er Majesty's Government what course they were prepared to take in respect to that mi nute? (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—I will answer at once the question of the right hon. gentleman. The committee of council have considered the minute to which my right hon. friend refers. We do not propose to enforce that minute. It will be cancelled ; and we propose, that by another minute, power shall be given to the clergyman to appeal to the Lord President of the Council and the bishop of the dio cese, in cases of a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and im moral habits. It is certainly possible, in some cases, that a schoolmaster of immoral conduct and immoral habits might be screened by the partiality and indulgence of the lay committee. In such a case we propose not, as under the minute to which my right hon. friend refers, an appeal to the bishop, but an appeal to the President of . the Coun cil and the bishop of the diocese, who shall appoint an in spector and the incumbent to make an investigation. Mr. W. J. FOX was very glad to find that the noble lord recognised the principle of an educational rate, as he thought that a most important step in the progress of in struction. (Hear, hear.) He never could comprehend the objections to the State interfering to secure the rights of children and their own rights. Tie State had a right to expect that society should not have turned upon it from time to time largo bodies of uninstructed and almost un civilised beings, ripe for immorality an d crime ; and chil dren, because of the neglect or loss of parents, ought not to be deprived of that training of their faculties which every human being had a right to enjoy. (Hear.) Much, however, of the virtue of a rate ,for education depended upon its being generally levied and distributed according to recognised and impartial principles. Unless that were the case, they would be introducing into borough the struggles which prevailed among religious societies and educational associations—they would be adding another item to that great mass of antagonism which caused so much disturbance and confusion in our social system— they would be throwing down the prize of public money in boroughs for different sects and congregations, for dif ferent churches and different bodies to contend for, as they would assuredly contend, and that, too, in a manner which would desecrate education by mixing up with it topics of political strife. (Hear, bear.) Therefore, any partial levying of the rate would be very inexpedient. The noble lord gave as a reason for retaining this mixed system of payments by children, benevolent contributi ons , an d public support, amongst other reasons, the fact that nearly half a million of money was now contributed towards the schools by the children' s pence ; but if this contribution, large as it might appear, were closely examined, he thought some very material reduction must be made from it. It was called children's pence, but it must not be understood the sum of a penny was paid by each child, because very many paid three, and four, and even six times that amount—indeed, such a payment as would entitle them to instruction at a private school. (Hear, hear.) He believed the way to make grants most conducive to the the increase of education, was to let the amount of remune ration be governed, not by the number of children, but by the attainments they acquired ; to institute something like an inquiry, by the inspectors, into what had actually been taught, and to apportion the amount of money aid accord ing to the amount of instruction actually given, and the amount of education realised in the children of each school. This would be a stimulus which would operate very strongly in raising the charaCter of education ; and an other might be added, of conferring the suffrage and the rights of political citizenship upon those who attained to a certain amount of erudition. Another matter to be con sidered was the emoluments of the schoolmasters, which at preient were so inadequate that no man of educated mind and possessed of the necessary habits and qulifications for instructing children would undertake the offic e . Th e y ought to be rplaced in a better position, not only as re garded revenue, but as regarded independence—for they , were too often placed un d er th e con t ro l o f persons w h o I were by no means able either to guide their instructions or correct their errors. (Hear, hear.) He, ought perhaps, r to apologise to the house for having gone into such a mi.- , nute criticism upon a measure which had only that even ing been brought under their notice ; but his excuse was, that the topic was one in which a deep interest was felt throughout the country. (Hear, hear.) He could not but hope, that as the discussion proceeded the scheme would be enlarged, so as at length to become really comprehen sive and worthy of the name of " national ;" and certainly he was disposed to believe that the recognition of a rate by the noble lord had laid the foundation of an edifice which would not only do honour to his own name, but redound to the happiness and glory of the country. (Hear, hear.) - Mr. E. BALL could not but consider it as a subject for great gladness and joy on the part of the country that no less a sum than 500,0001. was annually contributed in pence by the poor towards the education of their children. He wished to know what the hon. members for Montrose and Manchester meant when they talked of excluding religion from the schools ? If they meant that they would not permit the Bible to be introduced into the gavels, he could only say that he would do everything he could to oppose their views ; for he could not believe that any sys tem of education could be considered a national benefit which excluded the Bible. He had no desire to enforce sectarian religion upon any one, but he must insist upon the reading of the word of God. (Hear, hear.) He hoped therefore that the Government would never give their as sent, much less their authority and sanction, to any system of education which excluded the word of God. (Hear, hear.) Sir R. INGLIS said that, while he was not usually happy enough to be able to agree with the hon. member for the city of Manchester, he was bound to say that on one point, at least, they approached to something like an agreement on the present occasion, and that was, that it would be impossible to establish a system of united secular and religious education by means Of a school-rate in any corporate town whatever. Certainly, the right hon gen tleman's own city of Manchester would not support a rate for such a combined system. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposals which the noble lord had brought under their notice that evening, he would only then say that he saw great difficulties in the way of their adoption, and that he hoped to be permitted at the proposed time to state his objections in full. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. MANNERS said that, when the right hon. gentleman the member for Manchester asked the noble lord whether the Government intended to cancel the minute of Council of the 12th of June last, he seemed to labour under the misapprehension that that England Imind schoolsutehad had the effect of placing the Church s) gan under the sole control of the clergymen of the parish; and the noble lord, in answering the que s t i o n, said nothing to remove that misapprehension, but, on the contrary, seemed to give currency to that erroneous belief. The right hon. gentleman had entirely mistaken the object and intention of that minute. Its sole object was to remedy what the then Government believed to be a violation of the right of con science. (Hear, hear.) . Before sitting down h e w i s h e d to ask the noble lord, or, in his absence, the Chancell or o f the Exchequer — first , whether it was the intention of the Government to bring into operation their minute cancel ling the minute of the 12th of June last, before submitting it with their other minutes to the consideration of the house, and before it should have received that discussion which its importance merited ? Second whether the bill which it was intended to introduce was to be restricted to England and Wales, or whether it was to be extended to o Scotland ; and, if so, wheth er th e f ree schools,ragged schools as they were call e d i n S co tl and, would be enabled enabled to participate in the benefits of the increased grant ? And, third, whether—with re f erence to that part of the se hem; which was to give power to the Committee of Privy Council to make alterations in cases where the trustees did not agree with them—it was intended to bring in a sepa rate bill for each se p ara t e case in which th e committee proposed a variation in a particular trust, or whether it was intended at the end of every session, or at some other stated period, to introduce a general measure sanctioning all the particular alterations of the Committee of Council ? In conclusion, he begged to say for himself, that he fully agreed in the wisdom and justice of the course which was taken by Lord Derby's Government last year on this sub ject, and that he was perfectly ready to vindicate the minute which it was now proposed to cancel against all the imputations which had been brought against it. (Hear, hoar.) Mr. PHINN regretted the timid and hesitating tone of some portions of the noble lord's speech, and expressed his belief that, when the measure came to be placed before the public, the people would be found outrunning the Govern ment, and showing that they were far in advance of them on the subject. (Hear, hear.) The question naturally di vided itself into two heads—upon one of which alone the noble lord had touched on that occasion—upon the other, and that the most difficult point, the noble lord had been entirely silent. With respect to those who were willing to participate in the benefits of education, there could be little difficulty; but there was another class to which he begged to invite the attention of the house and the Government, and that was the class who did not want to participate in those benefits, and with respect to whom it was worthy of consideration whether some compulsory education should not be provided. (Hear, hear.) It must be familiar to all who were engaged in the administration of criminal justice whether as advocates or judges, in both of which capacities 'however humbly, be was himself engaged, that there was growing up, in the midst of our civilisation, a class of peo ple more like wild beasts than men, a class almost savage in their habits, and he might say, in almost every respect, degraded to the rank of savages by their ignorance of social religious, and intellectual knowledge ; and if the Govern ment were not prepared to apply some strong measure to this state of things the end would be--though it might not be in our time—that there would be a frightful disorgani sation of society. (Hear, hear.) No one indeed could ad vert to the vast number of persons roaming about our streets without any other means of support than that of preying on their fellow-subjects without seeing that their case presented a frightful question. He, for one, would be the last to propose that the Legislature should med dle unnecessarily with the independence of the subject, but if they had a right to say to the owners of pro perty that they were not entitled to hold that property without maintaining those who were unable to maintain themselves, he held that they had equally a right to say that they were not entitled to hold that property without attempting to bring to the know ledge of the Gospel, and of their social and moral relations, those who were not provided for by their parents or friends. He hoped, therefore, that the Government—and if not the Government, some old and experienced member of the house—would be prepared to invite the attention of house to this great question ; and he felt sure that, how ever stringent the measure that might be proposed, and whatever expense it might involve, the people generally would approve of it, and be ready to make the greatest sacrifices in its support ; for, looking at it in a mere pecu niary point of view, he believed it would be found amply to repay the expenditure. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that, if not this year or the next, at an early period, the noble lord would be able to present to the country a great, sound, and comprehensive system of national education, which would be the most enduring monument of his name, be cause exceeding in its ultimate results those political advan tages which he had been in instrumental in bestowing upon the nation. Mr. WIGRAM observed, that it appeared to him that the general measure of education proposed by the noble lord well deserved the consideration and favour of the house, because he understood that the purpose of the noble lord really was to aim at extending a system which had been already tried in the country, and which had produced very great and admirable results. (H ear , hear.) Those results had been attained consistently with the m.lintenance of peace and goodwill among all classes, and any measure which aimed at extending such a system would certainly meet with his support. Mr. BLACKETT said there was only one point to which he wished to advert, and he must say he regretted that the noble lord did not allude to a university which wanted as much reform as Oxford or Cambridge—he meant the Uni versity of Durham. He believed that institution had suc ceeded in a very few years in reaching the same perfection of mismanagement as Oxford and Cambridge. They all knew that it was con d uc t e d on the purely ecclesiastical system ; th a t th e p ro f essor i a l t eac hi n g had fallen i n t o dis use, and that scientific lectures were as badly attended as in either of the two universities. This was the more severely felt in the part of the country with which he was connected, because it was expected that, being in the neigh bourhood of the collieries, it would afford a school for mining and engineering purposes. He understood the noble lord to state that he would not bring forward any measure on the subject this year ; and recollecting that there was a passage in the Queen's Speech upon education, and that the general opinion was that some enabling act would have been brought in by Lord Derby's Government, he regretted to find that all hopes of improvement from legislation were further removed than before. At the same time he must offer his humble tribute of admiration at tin views expressed by the noble lord with reference to independent students, the extension of the professorial system, and the making of intellectual merit the test of success for all classes. He was very glad to hear this from the noble lord, because, in 1850, the right honourable gen tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used language on this subject, which no doubt had some influence upon the line of conduct pursued by the University of Oxford in re ference to the royal commission. He agreed, however, with his hon. and learned friend the member for Bath, when he said that the noble lord was more timid than his own com missioners. He understood the noble lord meant to give the universities mote time, and if they did not act, then he would come to Parliament for powers to compel them to do what was proper. But time was the very thing which the Oxford Conservatives wanted to gain, but nothing would induce him to grant it, because he was convinced that they would make as bad a use of it as they did be fore. This demand for time was not new. In 3834 or 1835, when Lord Radnor brought the question before the House of Lords, the late Duke of Wellington said that the University of Oxford had entered upon the consideration of its statutes, and that the colleges were about to do the same, but from that time to the present no step had been taken by any Oxford college. The hon. baronet, who was the senior representative of the University of Oxford, ex pressed great alarm at what the noble lord had said he would do if the university did not act, but the hon. bart.'s apprehensions were unfounded, for if the noble lord did not strike while the iron was hot, all internal dissensions would be appeased, and Oxford would again present the same unbroken front to improvement which it had always done. He would ask the noble lord whether the commissioners approved of this delay. He (Mr. Blackett) • had no authority to speak their senti ments, but the spoke of the " immediate" necessity of opening the scholarships, and of abrogating the oaths to observe the statutes. The house was aware that the in- quiries of the commissioners were met by the reply that the oaths to observe the statutes stood in the way of an answer being given by the fellows to the request made to them in the name of her Majesty. In the course of every year there were thirty or forty fellowships and other offices of emolument within the university given away, and upon admission to which this oath of a perpetual observance of the statutes was taken. Every year, therefore, added a fresh crop of persons, who were ready to plead that oath as a bar to any inquiry. The Vice-Chancellor had refused to give any information to the commissioners, and only three colleges and three halls had communicated informa tion to the commissioners. The commissioners had, how ever, reported, and when it was known that an appeal was to be made by the Ministers of the Crown to the autho rity of Parhament, he thought it was the duty of the University of Oxford to abstain from taking any steps which were formally condemned by the commission. One of the recommendations of the commission was that the revenues of the university should not be applied to objects that were not academical, yet the university, although it had given 1,0001. last year to the diocesan training school, and had thereby mortgaged the surplus revenue of cur rent year, the university thought proper to give 5001. towards the testimonial to the late Duke of Wellington. He perfectly agreed with the noble lord that the most valuable of the recommendations of the commissioners was the extension of the university system to students without exacting from them admjssion to the several colleges, the main advantage of which would be that it would break the neck of the ecclesiastical and the tutorial system. The noble lord was probably aware that the Liberal-Conserva tive portion of the university had organised itself in oppo sition to the recommendations of the commissioners, and on this last head the tutors' association had put forward a separate scheme of its own. It had assented to other por tions of the scheme, such as the erection of independent halls under private masters of arts, but they steadily re fused any countenance to the project of students uncon nected with colleges. This, he thought, was a fair speci men of the way in which the University of Oxford would emasculate and temper down the recommendations of the commission. In conclusion, he could not help lamenting that the main obstacle to efficient university reform was a Coalition Cabinet; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not rise to go into the various points which had been raised inci dentally in this discussion, or to follow the hon. gentleman who had just sat down through the particulars of his at tack upon the University of Oxford, and upon members of that university, who, in his (the Chancellor` of the Ex chequer's) opinion, deserved the highest honour—(hear) — and had taken part not now only in the cause of university reform—(hear)—but he wished to answer the questions of his noble friend (Lord J. Manners), and to notice one or two of the points which had been referred to. The noble : lord had asked whether there would be any objection which it lay upon the table the minute of Privy Council was intended to substitute for that of Junethel2thlBs2 There would be no objection whatever Butto the noble lord the immediate production of that minute. ( did not give a correct description of the minute of June, 1852, when he said that the promoters of Church of Eng land schools had laboured under a.grievance in not being allowed to constitute their trusts in the manner agreeable to their own convictions, while a liberty of that kind_ was gives to the founders of Romantsay Catholic schools. c h sch fe o u o n ls d . ers Th o e f minute of June, 1852. did n Church of England schools s.h o oullbe at liberty to consti tute their trusts in the manner they thought fit. The ob ject of that minute, if it had one, and no doubt it had a rational object, was to prevent the retention, through local misunderstanding, or undue influence or intrigue of im moral or improper persons in the office of schoolmaster • and, as far as that object was concerned, h e trusted the noble lord would see by the minute which had now been adopted it would be fully secured. But as to the noble lord's construction of the minute of June, 1852, he could not have had the min u t e i n his recollectiOn when he referred to it as giving to the of England schools a lib er t y promote rs o f Ch urc h which it would be very unreasonable in them to claim and r very improper in any Government to give. (Hear, hear The nobl e lord asked whether Scotland was included in the plan which had that evening been announced. That plan in no respect extend ed to Scotland ; th e intentions of the Governm twi‘h of to S co tl an d , when they should be matured, would be explained upon a distinct occasion . (Hear.) The noble lord also as k e d whether it was intended by the bill for the regulation o f charitable trusts to provide that every separ ate scheme of reform which might be framed under the provisions of that bill should be made the subject of a se parate act of Parliament. Of course, with regard to the precise frame of the bill, it would be better that the noble lord should wait for the bill than trust to a general descrip tion of it; but what was intended was to adopt a provision somewhat similar to that of the Enclosure Act. It would be necessary to come to Parliament for schemes of reform in the case of charities where the trustees did not give their consent, but it would nor be necessary to come for a separ ate act in each case; it might be found practicable to com bine a number in a single act, just as now a number of schemes of enclosure might be combined in one act of Par liament. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Bath (Mr. Phinn) referred to the great schools of this country, and thought they ought to have been comprised in the state ment which had been made to the house. When the Attorney-General of the late Government (Sir F. Thesi ger) introduced a bill last year for the regulation of charitable trusts. it would have admitted an inquiry into the great schools and the manner in which they managed their funds ; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed those great schools would be included within the scope of the bill which it was now indended to introduce into the House of Lords for the regulation of charitable trusts, and it would be premature to enter upon the subject on this occasion. It was quite true that those schools discharged an office preliminary in a great degree to the universities, and it seemed only i n ther 1 tural order of things that the measures of reform t o be i adopted in the universities should take their ultimate shape before P ar li amen t considered the measures which 0 might be right to adopt with respect to the great schools' (Hear. hear.) A great deal had been said upon the sub• ject of the universities, and the hon. member for Caul' bridge (Mr. Wigram) had spoken upon the subject in s conciliatory tone,—a tone indicating readiness to give fair consideration to proposals of improvement—(hear, hear)" which was the best adapted both to promote beneficial chang e , and to re s i s t dangerous and mischi evous a lt era tion. (Hear, With respect to the statement of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), it required no defence and no eluci' dation from him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer).l Whether it was in contrast with what he had said there of or elsewhere, as has been stated by the hon. gentlernas: le av whoe that had just sat down was a subject upon which he shoull i hon. g en tl eman to speculate to his own conten; I and satisfaction. To the principles which had been lain; down by the noble lord he (the Chancellor of the Exche'i quer) adhered, as he always had. He held it to be the' duty of the Legislature to seek that the great endowment! and resources with which the universities had been pro vided should be made available for the ends and pur poses for which they existed ; and if there were portion of those endowments which at preaent lay dormant an in abeyance, and were not so made available, it Nv a matter essential to the welfare of those universities themselves that their application should be so directed that they might accomplish the ends for which they I were appointed. (Hear, hear.) If ho at all refer: red to tie speech of the hon. member who had just i sat down, he must say it appeared to him, with grea t. deference and submission to that hon. member, a speech greatly tending to stop the progress of university r e form. He could not conceive a course more unwise, if the hon. member was in earnest—as doubtless he was—in desiring many beneficial changes in the universities, than that which the hon. memb er h a d t a k en. He had not' stopped short of, imputing a general insincerity to the professions mad - among the university residents ; he said they were asleep till the report, though he incidentally stated is another part of his speech that a great and extensive change had been adopted by the university in the whole system of 1 , study and examination just before the commission was ap' , pointed [Mr. Blackett.—" I distinguished between the ' ' i university and the colleges."] He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not heard that ; but, the university and the colleges being composed at present of the same persons, it was scarcely possible that a spirit of reform should pre' wail in the one, and that in the other the same persons who adopted reforming measures should be liable to the vat severe censures which the hon. member had cast upon theni. (Hear.) But, be that as it might, the hon. member aIY peared to be of opinion that it was not only desirable that changes should be made in the universities, but that thei, should be made by ex t raneous authority ; for he said that the noble lord - was committing a fatal error in giving theta time. Why, the commissioners, who were not deficient in zeal and diligence took two years to frame their report, An d very wisely. Did the hon. member think, in reference to bodies of this kind, which had discharged the most import ant functions for centuries, 'and which enj o y e d a t this Dl°' ment —he (the Chanc e ll or f the Exchequer) would venture to say—the confidence and respect of the country—(hear)—' as bodies of men ardently engaged in the promotion of met useful labours—(hear)--did the hon. mem b er think 1, was desirable enti re ly t o overr id e the free and independen t action of those bodies ? Their free and independent action was essentially connected with the attainment of the ends for which th e y ex i s t e d. (H ear.) If they_ were deprived 0 that free an d in d epen d ent action, it might be necessary for them to i n t er f ere —h e did not say such circumstances might , not arise, b u t it wou ld b e a great misfortune ; it was of importance that improvement should be introduced of their own free choice. (Hear.) An hon. member said- - " I hope you do not mean to hold out a threat to the uni versities that you will interfere if they do not do so-and so." It was anything but desirable to hold out threats as, an hon. gentleman had d one , it produced a strong spirit of reaction. At the same time it was too much to all ege that they or any incorporation was in such a sense and so abso lutely master of its endowments, that Parliament had no right of supervision whatever ; it was surely the duty of Parliament, on sufficient cause shown, to interpose and re g,ulate those endowments for a public purpose. (Hear.) But the rational course was to give fair and full time to these bodies. They were not bodies that had been asleep; they had been improving their systems. No doubt there was much to be done. Was there not much to be done in the House of Commons ? (Hear, hear.) Was there not much to be done in the way of reform and improve' ment ? (Hear. hear.) But did it follow that they had been doing nothing ? (Hear, hear.) Just so Wi7 these ancient and comp li ca t e d foundations, with great difficulties standing in the way of reform ; he must Prc" test against the imputations which had been th ro wn 04 by the hon. member against those who were conducting education there, and warn the house against his doctrine' " Do not give them time ; sweep away what you want t e s see removed." Th ese were no t questions that would earn of that rude, treatment. (Hear, hear.) If you wanted.° attain your end, you must proceed regularly and i n order l ; i and, while vindic a ti ng th e supremacy of Parliament, Y.° 'I must give these parties the opportunity of introducing' .! changes, unless you had reason t o b e li eve they would 1 3 ° 1 be introduced by their free action. (Hear, hear.) The hon. r i member said it would have been but reasonable that 01' ford should have acted upon the recommendation of t,,, 11e commissioners with regar d t o the administration of r '. property. It was one ques ti on w h ether that recommend s ' tion was a reasonable one; but what a doctrine to 841 t: that because a commission of inquiry had been appointe d ' when that commission had reported the body was to 1 1 : bound to act upon th e pr i nc i p l es the commission had 1 9.1 - down ! He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must PO' test against that, as a doctrine adverse to liberty. (Hem' hear.) He would sa y, it was the business of corPers a bodies to submit themselves to their view of reason, an . not to the' view of the hon. member, or of him se lf. It W „ I their duty to sub m it themselvesto law, b u t it wa s 1 0 their duty to submit to the opinions or views of commis: sions of inquiry, unless they thought them to be HOP; (Hear, hear.) He hoped the statements of his noble friend With respect to the universities would be taken from the speech of the noble lord himself, and not from the con' structions put upon it by any member. (Hear, hear.) The ! commissioners spoke of the introduction of students br longing to the univer s ity, b u t not connected with the c''' leges. They thought this desirable, if it could b e don° without relaxing or weakening the discipline of the univer sity. But this was a reservation of a most important ohs' ratter, _ and the questi o n was i n what mode and whether this change could be made without weakening the died" pline. He regretted that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Blackett) had spoken with what he must consider extreme and lin" merited asperity—(hear, hear)—of a body of men of a mos t laborious and meritorious character who w ere en gage honestly, industriously, and uprightly in th e b us i nes s o ' r education. He t rus t e d th a t th e h ouse would adhere to the recommendation of his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) and give to the universities fair and full time for consider' ing and recommending the measures best adapted to els end in -view, leaving it to them, as to all corporate auth c ' c i rities, to do th e i r d u t y, i f they would do it willingly, 00 , if not, then re serv i ng to that house the duty of actin, under its authority. (Hear, hear.) After a few words from Lord J. MANNERS and g r. BLACKETT in explanation, Mr. PELLATT wished to bear testimony to the labour° of the persons engaged as Sunday-school teachers. Thee ° schools had now been in existence for 70 years ; there wel no less than 2,000,000 sc h o l ars in them, who were taugb; by 200,000 teachers. All these schools were maintained upon n. the voluntary p r i nc i p l e, and all gave religious instil°. tio Leave was then given to bring in the bill. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. This bill, as amended, was considered. Mr. HUME said that great objections were felt out.d doors to any portion of the religious instruction of the people of Canada being paid for by the State, and trusted the Government would reconsider the alteration they had made in the bill. The bill was ordered to be printed with the amendments , and to be read a third time on Monday next. PILOTAGE BILL. Mr. CARD WELL moved that this bill be read a sew' na time. Lord d businessj gentleman e. and A ordered e r s o mwßehturoilicsbhosstecnEhuicterl°Fs miwr:hancit Mr. HUME recommended that it should be referred to a select committee up-stairs. might be as Mr. CARDWELL believed that the bill would be t b i e m n e e: t i l l " t ficial to the mercantile interest, and thought it could be very well considered by the house itself. thought n , ai tyo t ptuc h enregd e ollehpxo b ototrn i si. l te l omdwf Monday o a tn s hdt l a : a e , ykE a e d n e x t. w. PUBLIC BUSINESS FOR FRIDAY NE en g tTo.state v e e . n notice thifl consider the Consolidated Fund and the National pthhuoeLnbl.oci and after that the Government pro gimwhole house 0 cxpl a i n the h p mo r io o d svp move sl3fioturiloanlvs was s of readcommittee whicha secondhOoenf day otnhae regardpri go bli t to posed to go in ommittee of Supplyhad Ichequer would and take the miscel• Redemption Acts), The New Fores l e a v n T e e n h o i u s e n g c e o ( s p t t o y i m tee Evidence (Scotland) Bill passed throur The Oaths in Chancery Bill was read a third time and and the Law of Deer Removal Act Amendment Bill' committee. passed. MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL. Merr. TURNER presented petitions from the mayor) aldmen, and burgesses of Li ver p o ol, a nd f rom the tills' tees of the Liverpool docks, under their corporate seal , against thi s bi ll, the 22nd clause of which would, the iv' 'ioners b e li eved, prejudice the i r i nterest in regard to , olls. The bill was read a second time and ordered to be coin• mated on Monday next. CANTERBURY ELECTION. On the motion of Mr. K. SEYISIER, the further suspen" sion of the writ for the city of Canterbury till Monday, tho 2nd day of May next, was agreed to. until The t hhi ouse s day (Tuesday). at a quarter to 11 o ' c l ock, adjourned STATE OF TRADE. —The accounts of the state of trade in the manufactoring towns during the past week ar e generally satisfactory. At Manchester the market bile been very firm, owing to the advance of the raw mate' rial at Liverpool, although buyers being still cautious, business has been limited from the hesitancy to gio higher prices. At Birmingham the makers have reluc tantly consented to a reduction of 1/. per ton in bar iron, and the concession appears likely to lead to larg e transactions, in consequence of the great demand for heavy machinery and the general requirements for rail: way purposes. The manufacture of a gasometer a' Smethwick, for the Sheffield Gas Consumers Company; of the u n p rece d en t e d di ameter of 165 feet is regarde d with interest. The price of copper continues to have s slight tendency to decline. Heaton and Son are the contractors for th e new co i nage of 500 tons, which wig be commenced about the end of June, the sale firm being meanwhile employed in copper coinage for Canada and France. The Nottingham accounts state business to h ave b een interrupted by the Easter boll days, but there was a tendency to great activity, th e Australian, American, and home demand being a ll goo d ' In the woollen districts there has been continued anima" tion, and the recent strikes for higher wages have been arranged by mutual concessions. The Irish linen ma% ket shows firmness and activity, without any positive alteration in prices. Letters from Rouen mention that transactions in the market for manufactures h a d been more extensive, lower prices having in several cases been accepted. LETTERS FOR AUSTRHLIA.—It appears that arrant ments have been made with the Post-office authoritl for carrying her Majesty's mails to Port Philip and Sr:. ney by the s crew s t eamer Osmanli, to sail from Liver" pool on the 7th inst. IT ( th e se their Rath, Dti 1 ~_ Q.