The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-02 00:00:00

Mr. Hunt had since written to the Right Honourable Secre- • tary, who had referred him to the Sheriff; by the Sheriff he was referred to the Magistrates, and by the _Magistrates :he was referred to the judges. The consequence was, 'Mr. Hunt remained in what he called solitary confinement, which he (Mr. Hobhouse) did flot e exactly call by that name, but which was nearly equivalent to it under the circumstances of the case. It was not to be endured that a prisoner should be thus treated. The Commissioners who had well discharged their duty, had reported that contradictory and irritating or ders had been issued respecting Mr. Hunt and another pri soner. Unnecessary obstacles were interposed to his inter yarse with his wife and children—the room in which he had •been allowed to see his friends was small, cold 2 very damp, .and without a fire, and such was the conduct of the Magis trates, that a prisoner had been brought before them 'with ten pounds of iron on his wrist, yet it had not occurred to them to sorder it off. It was strange to hear such statements advanced -respecting a prison in that country where they were then sitting. He could hardly believe that such statements could be true of an English jail. But he had more to disclose. It appeared -that in many cells a large chain was attached to the floor or to the bedstead, for the purpose of being fastened to the wrists •or legs of its prisoner. The part of the yard appropriated to the prisoners had been turned into a garden for the jailor, so that those confined could neither walk there, nor play at fives, instruments of punishment, of a peculiar construction, had been found in the prison, some of which were such as had hardly ever been heard of, but in connection with the Spanish Armada. Fetters had been put on the criminals when about to be led to execution. What must be thought of treatment so .different from that which was common in other places ? One who had lately suffered had complained that the bell' was not tolled for him ; but what must be the feelings of the sufferers • he had alluded to, when at such a moment they found themselves ,-treated in the way he had described ? lie considered it i a fortunate 'circumstance for the public that Mr. Hunt had been sent to Ilchester, as he had been the means of bringing -many abuses to light, which, but for his going there, might never have been discovered. A prisoner ought not to be - punished as Mr. Hunt had becn, and he therefore hoped the Right Hon. Secretary . of State would devise some means to - prev'ent the continuation of these hardships. He then moved that the Petition should be brought up. Mr. DICKENSON maintained that the Magistrates had done all in theirpower to guard against giving cause for com plaints like those urged on the part of Mr. Hunt. Mr. BENNETT thought the fact of their not having op posed the new regulations proved that they met with their ap probation. • • Mr. W SMITH thought it fortunate that the abuses corn •plained of had been discovered through the interference of Mr. • Hunt. To him it appeared that prisoners should have the !power of communicating the grievances of which they might have to complain to Members of that House. He hoped the Petition would be alloweitto lie on the table, and that it would ._cause the evils complained of to be speedily remedied. Sir R. WILSON supported the Petition, and commented -on the conchtet of the Magistrates in suffering ten pounds weight of iron to remain on the wrists of a prisoner examined before them. Mr. P. MOORE did not know Mr. Hunt ; buf he knew :that he was a British subject. lie had been barbarously treat - ed, and was entitled to the protection of that House. He • hoped every subject in England would feel that Mr. Hunt's case might one day be his own, and take it up accordingly. If Ministers did not interfere in behalfof those who were thus op. pressed, they would not do their duty. The Petition was brought up, and ordered to be printed. Mr. Alderman WOOD had a Petition to present from the individual to whose case the attention of the H ouse had been •-called, but he would postpone presenting it, and he would now bring . before them a petition which he had received from 801. ton, in Lancashire, signed by four thousand persons, praying -the House to interfere, by addressing the Crown, and calling .on his Majesty to remit the remainder of Mr. Hunt's sentence. The Petition also went on to state, that had the Parliament , been reformed, that individual would .not have been punished so severely. He then noticed the alleged abuses in the jail of l'lchester ; described the treatment Mr. Hunt had received, his -application to 111 r. Justice Bayley, and the consequent order fur the admission of his attorney and sur g eon. He expressed an opinion, that it was quite possible for the visiting Ma gistrates to make such alterations as would relieve Mr. Hunt. The Petition was then brought up and read, and ordered to be printed. SINKING FUND• Mr. BANKES moved ii;;aeCotTnisof the Capital Stock re -deemed, of the Public Debt, with a calculation of the effect that would be produced on the principal of the Debt in the course of ten years, by the operation of a Sinking Fund' of —5,000,0001. and other papers connected with the same subjects. Mr—GRENFELL wished to put a question to the Right llonourahle the Chancellor of the Exchequer, relative to the -Sinking Fund. He wished to know whether it was the inten •tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman that the present amount of live millions only should be applied to the liquidation of the debt, or whether that sum was to be allowed to accumulate at , compound interest for the sage object ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that it was his intention, ..as soon as the financial arrangements for the present year were concluded, and the Budget opened, to niove for the appointment of a Committee of Inquiry into the - means of adopting a plan for the simplification of the public .-accounts. He should then propose that the Sinking Fund should be made a particular object of attention. It would be for the House then to consider whether the accumulation by -compound interest should be applied to the extinction of the debt, or whether it should be left to the disposal of Parliament. The question was one which would require great attention, be cause if they decided upon the latter course, it would be neces sary to repeal several acts• which now regulated the application -of the Fund. • Mr. TIERNE expressed his conviction, that the Noble Marquis opposite, in stating his general plan to the House, held it out, as the intention of Ministers, to reduce a million of tae next year, and to proceed with reductions in the years following. This was what country Gentlemen had understood :from the Noble Marquis as well as himself, and now they found lhat all the relief to be afforded was the reduction of one shil ling a quarter upon malt. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied that he had, in point of fact, said that there would be any further repeals of :taxes. What he stated was, that the House having pledged itself, in 1819, to establish a Sinking Fund of five millions, and that resolution being now accomplished, it would be left , open to Parliament in what manner it should make use of any accruing surplus therefrom. He distinctly stated the future reduction of taxes to be dependent on the will of Parliament, when it should have these farther sums at its disposal. lie left it open to Parliament in this manner, and at the same time he observed that the distress of the country appeared to him to call for the relief. But if the agricultural interest should re vive before the period arrived, the House was not pledged to any particular course with regard to the funds that would be paced.at its disposal. He hoped, therefore, that it would be borne in mmd, that he never did say that any surplus which night arise sTiould of necessity be applied to the reduction of Mr. TIERNEY contended that the interest of the Sinking Furd was not, and could not be, at the disposal of Parliament, as the Noble Marquis seemed to consider it. Without the re peal of several Acts, Parliament could not touch the com pound interest, growing out of the five millions. When the Noble Lord said that such accumulations were at the disposi tion of Parliament, he announced that the Sinking Fund, upon the principle of accumulating by compound interest, was at .an end. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that what he .spoke of was, any surplus that might accrue beyond the five millions to be applied to the acceleration of the liquidation of the debt. Mr. TIERNEY expressed his astonishment at hearing the Noble Lord speak of a 'surplus of five millions, when in fact there was no such thing. lie could understand the present manceuvra of the Noble Lord very well ; it was to destroy the 431t1 machinery of the Sinking Fund, for the purpose of getting it into his own hands. lle contended, that the produce of the Sinking Fund must be laid out at compound interest, as the law now stood. • Mr. ELLICE wished the Honourable Member for Corfe Castle had brought forward his motion at a time when the sub• ject of it could have been fully examined. He thougiit the .subject should be discussed in all its branches, and hoped that an ample debate would take place upon it at some future opportunity. MABERLY said, that he had understood from the _Noble Marquis, that an annual reduction of taxes was to en -sue. It would be much better for the Noble Lord not to come -down to the House to make statements which were to be con tradicted upon another occasion. The Finance Accounts which he had presented to the House were also fallacious ; or else the annual accounts were fallacious. They were, in fact, .both fallacious ; some in one thing and some in another. He ,(Mr. I%I.) had been to the Treasury to inquire into some of the contradictions, and to endeavour to get them explained. He saw there a very intelligent Gentlem tn, Mr. Hill, but he was quite unable to reconcile the aecoi n.s. As it was his intention to submit a n °don to the Douse upon this subject, at sonic future period, h should say no more at present. The Marqu s of LONDONDERRY begged again to say that he distinctly stated that it would be left open to Parlia zneut as to what they should do with any surplus which might arise hereaft r. It was for them to decide whether it should be Applied sol. ly to the reduction of taxes, or divided with any other object ; whether the whole sum should accumulate at :compound ..n . .erest, or whether the whole surplus should be taken or any part of it. That was the view he took of the question, and that was the opinion which he expressed to the House. Lord ALVIORPE said that he had understood distinctly that these prospective reductions were announced ; whereas it now turned out that they were still to receive considers- Lion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER remarked upon what had fallen from . an lion. Member relative to his ap plying at the Treasury for information respecting the public accounts. The Lion. Gentleman had said that he learnt there that those accounts weiv . erroneous. He would venture to say that the Honourable Gentleman had mistaken what he had heard. If the Gentleman to whom he had applied, Mr. Hill, (than whom a more intelligent and valuable servant of the public did not exist), were at the bar of that House, he would reconcile all the public accounts of which the Hon. Me:nber complained. Mr. - MARERLEY explained. . _ Sir H. PARNELL said, that the simplification of accounts ought to be extended to all the public departments. Mr. HUME condemned the incorrectness of the various public accounts. There were scarcely two Treasury accounts laid on that table which agreed with each other • and this he pledged himself to prove when they went into ;he Committee upon the subject. He thought 31inisters ought to effect the simplification of the accounts themselves, without calling upon the House to do it. Were be in office, lie should not call upon others to do that which he ought to do himself. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he had never expressed any intention of calling upon the House for such a measure ; what lie said was, that he should move for a Committee, to whom he should present a plan of his own. The accounts, as they were made up at present, came from different offices, and were made up with diffe rent views, and when they were brought into one focus, they certainly did not present a perfectly clear idea of the general account. air. TIERNEY did not wish to raise a question upon this motion ; but he would ask why they were to delay the Com mittee ? Unless it were appointed without loss of time, the Report could not be received until after the •Budget. For the satisfaction of all parties there, as well as out of doors, it would be better for Ministers to state what construction they put upon the Acts now in force with regard to the Sinking Fund. Persons, whose interests were intimately connected with the question, were not aware at this moment, whether the Sinking - Fund %as to accumulate for the benefit of •the stockholder, or for the relief of the country by reducing its burdens. Mr. P. MOORE said that the question was not whether the country should be relieved, but whether it should be saved.— The motion was then agreedto,_ SLAVE TRADE. Mr. W. SMITH said that he moved last year for returns of the Correspondence between Government and the Cruizers on the African Coast relative to the Slave Trade. He now rose to move, with the consent of the Noble Marquis opposite, for similar returns from the date of the last downwards—Returns ordered. Colonel DAVIES moved for a return of the names of all Officers dipnissed from the Army without trial by Court Mar tial since the year 1793.—Ordered. . _ Mr. COURTENAY moved for the re-appointment of the Committee to inquire into the laws relating to Prisons.—The motion was agreed to. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Com mittee to consider of the Supplies to be granted to his Majesty for the service of the ensuing year. Sir J. NEWPORT wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle man what allowance was to be made to brewers and others for stock in hand, upon the removal of the malt tat. The CHANCELLOR of the HXCHEQLTER said, that the best answer would be found in the printed resolutions of that House. Sir J. NEWPORT would be glad also to know whether any such allowance was to be made to the maltsters. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that an allowance was to be made upon the stock on hand. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that the corn markets had been lower on that day in consequence of the Right Hon. Gentle man not making an allowance upon the stock of malt on hand. The price of wheat was four shillings a quarter lower, and that of the best barley, from three or four shillings lower upon the prices of Monday last. This must be in consequence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's determination, because the ar rivals of barley in the last week had been - smaller than in any week since the harvest. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the fluctuation in the price of wheat as well as barley, proved that it (lid not depend upon the cause to which it was attributed by the Hon. Member. Mr. WHITBREAD explained. After a few words from Mr. Ooocn and Sir M. RIDLEY, this conversation dropped. Mr. HUME then rose to call upon the House once more, not to vote the sum of 1,781,0001. without knowing to what it was to be applied. If he understood the duty of that House, it was to watch over and check the expenditure of the public re venue, and to see how it was appropriated. If the House, how ever, consented to this course, he could only protest. He di rected the attention of the House to the Report of the Finance Committee of 1317, in which the Committee stated, that the sum of 49,4001. for Ordnance for the Navy, would be reduced in the years to come. Instead of that, however, in the year 1019, it was 91,0001. being double the former sum. In 1820, it was 104,0001. • in the last year, 100,0001. ; and, in the pre-, sent, 95,0001. flow this could be spent in powder and shot he was at a loss to conceive. The House would not act as it ought, if it did not call for inquiry upon this head. Ile should now only do what he considered to be his duty. Majorities would prevail, and he should only move, in order to express his own sentiments upon the Journals of the House, " For Estimates of the particular manner in which the sum of 95,0001. is to be expended in Ordnance for the Navy. Also for similar Esti mates in regard to the suns of 650,0001. for the Wear and Tear of the Navy." If there were any fear of disclosures by grant ing this motion, would the Government give particulars of the last year's appropriation of these sums ?—(Hear, from Mr. Croker.)—Hc was happy to hear that they would, and he would consequently withdraw his motions. (After a short pause, however, the lion Member persisted in moving them.) Mr. CHOKER had before said, that the Committee was the proper place where these points should be discussed. If the Hon. Gentleman was not satisfied there, he would have the power to call for further information. Sir I. COFFIN thought he could give his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen a satisfactory answer with regard to the Navy Ordnance in a minute. During the American war a sloop was sunk by one of the enemy in twenty minutes—she was of superior force to be sure. But it was afterwards ascer tained that the guns of the sloop had not been fired for twelve months. It had therefore been ordered by the Admiralty, that an additional quantity of powder arid shot should be fired off in every month. If 95,0001: a year was too much for keep ing the British Navy ready for war in time of peace, the sooner the whole fleet was blown up the better. Mr. WA RD stated, that it was a great mistake to suppose that the whole amount of this estimate was spent on powder and shot. The Hon. Member went into an explanation to shew that not one half of the sum was applied to that object. Mr. G. BENNETT said, that the information which the Hon. Member had given was all that was asked, so that it was puttlown in figures. Mr. WARD censented to the statements for the last year being granted. Sir I. COFFIN explained. Mr. HUME withdrew his motions, and the House resolved itself into a Committee. The first Resolution for granting the sum of 500,0001. for the wear and tear of ships for the year 1822 was then agreed to. The next Resolution was that the sum of 81,9001. be granted to his Majesty for the expenses of the Ordnance of the Sea Service. Mr. BERNAL asked what was the rate of reduction upon this estimate ? Sir J. OSBORNE said that it was one shilling per man. Mr. HUME wished to know at what period any exception might be taken to the number of marines ? Mr. CROKER said, in the vote for the wages of the men. Mr. HUME wished to reduce the sinecures which were held by officers at the head of the marines. He should not propose taking away the offices from the Earl Saint Vincent, and those who now held them ; he only wished the House to come to a resolution not, to keep up these seven sinecure of fices. It would be better to reward gallant officers for their services in the more honourable way of granting them Parlia mentary pensions. Be should move for the reduction of these sinecures when the report was brought up. • Mr. CROKER suggested that the better way of discussing the principle of the appointments would be to make them the subject of a substantive motion. The Resolution was then agreed to. ORDINARY NAVAL ESTIMATES. Sir .T. OSBORNE said that the House having disposed of the estimates for the wear and tear of the navy, it now be came his duty to move those fOr the ordinary and extraor dinary supplies of the navy. Since the war every effort had been made to reduce those estimates to as low a stand; and as possible, and he was happy that the duty of bring ing them forward had devolved upon him at a time when they were reduced to so diminished a scale. The remaining esti mates divided themselves under two heads—the Ordinaries and Extraordinaries ; and under both these heads were considerable reductions. The four principal offices—the Admiralty-office the Navy Pay Office, the Navy Office, and the Victualling Of fice, had experienced reductions to the amount of 41,0001.; and ith the reductions upon other items under the first division of this estimate, amounting to 116,0001. But there was an in crease in the second part upon the superannuations and pensions to officers' widows, and upon the widow's charity of 71,0001. Also, upon the superannuation list, in consequence of the re duction of clerks,'ffiere was an increase of 21,0001. The re duction upon the building and repairing of ships was 411,2001., and upon the works at Sheerness there was also a reduction of 15,8001. The separate - votes which he should have to bring forward .would put the House in possession of morti ample de tails, and he should therefore proceed to move the first Resolu tion for granting a sum not exceeding 57,6161. ss. Id. for the salaries and contingent expenses of the Admiralty Office. LORDS OF THE ADMIRALTY. • Sir M. W. It IDLt Y said he rose for the purpose of proposing a reduction in the proposed grant—a reduction which would go to take off the salaries of two junior Lords of the Admi ralty. He felt that in bringing forward this motion for the third time, he was imposing an unpleasant task both upon the Committee and himself; but the necessities of the coun try, the absolute distress under which it was labouring, must plead his excuse. When he had on a former occasion brought forward a motion, he was met in the first instance by the argument—" that the Admiralty Board from its original formation consisted of the present number," and therefore it was urged that a continuance of the same number of persons was necessary. Now he denied the first part of this proposition. It was well known that since the first formation of that Board, it consisted of different numbers at different periods. In 1702, Prince George of Denmark was at the head of the Admiralty, but there were four Lords under him. In 1709 there were four Junior Admiralty Lords; in 1714 there were five; in 1717 there were five; and in Lord Sandwich's time there were five. This was the last period at which the number of Admiralty Lords had been five ; they had since been six, down to the present time.— But surely so short a period of usage was not sufficient to esta blish the continuance of offices which had again and again been proved to be useless. There might have existed, a few years ago, good reasons for continuing the present number of Lords of the Admiralty in their places; but when the situation of the country was looked to—when the complaints of all classes of society were beard, a good reason was furnished for their reduction. Let the Committee consider the present esti mates. The number of ships to be employed was 120, the number of seamen and marines 21,000. Perhaps, when we had 1,200 ships in Commission, and 140,000 seamen and marines employed, six Lords of the Admiralty might be necessary to fonduct the business of the navy—but who would say that they were necessary now? Gentlemen might complain of their distresses—they might petition for relief—but unless they firtri:y determined to reduce every useless expenditure, then their complaints andetitions were no more than a mockery.—(Hear, hear, hear!)—here then was an expenditure, against which lie called upon them to make a stand.—(llear !)—lt perhaps might be urged, that the present Lords of the Admiralty had other employment ; that they were laudibly engaged in assisting an Honourable Secretary in detecting the errors or blunders in the calculations of certain Members on his (Sir M. W. Ridley's) side of the House.—(A laugh.)—Perhaps they had been assisting an Hon. Baronet opposite in endeavouring to divine, by spirit of prophecy, what would be the statements and objections of the HonourableMernbersfor Aberdeen. This, it was true, might be a very laborious employment, but surely it was not enough to satisfy the country of the justness of their claims to their present salarieS. The Gentlemen or their friends might urge that their employments tended much to the benefit of the State but he trusted the Committee would come to a different conclusion— ( Hear, hear !)—The Honourable Baronet here read to the House an extract from the Report of the Finance Committee of 1797, in which they stated, " that though it might be ad visable to continue Six Junior Lords of the Admiralty in time of war, yet that such a reduction ought to take place in time of peace. That the business of the Admiralty Board was reduced, was evident from the discharge of a great number of the Clerks, upon whom at all times the weight of the business devolved ; they had been lopped off with an unspar ing hand, but the " Lords" had been continued, not because there. still existed business, but because their offices afforded a convenient source of patronage to Ministers—a patronage which they were most anxious to maintain —(Hear, hear!)--It was not for the mere purpose of saving 2,0001. a year that he made this motion, lie was aware that such a saving would be but as a drop in the ocean (although a saving of 2,000 shillings ought not to be slighted). His main object was to remove a portion, at least, of that undue patronage which Ministers enjoyed, and by which they were enabled to continue the pressure that the country now laboured under—(hear, hear !)—ln 1817 he made a motion si milar to-the present, and then he was met by the Noble Mar quess (then Lord Castlereagh), who said this is a subject which will come under the consideration of the Finance Com mittee, who are now sitting, and therefore you are premature," and so his motion was negatived. Well, the Finance Committee at length reported, and in that Report they said that the Resolu tion of the House (upon his motion) had taken the question re specting the Junior Lords of the Admiralty, so that both ways the Lords of the Admiralty were safe. Another ground of de fence had been urged, which lie considered most ludicrous, but coming from the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) it was worthy of attention, if only to point out its fallacy. The Noble Mar quis said that the Admiralty was, in fact, a school for young statesmen, who might be called upon at a future period to fill efficient offices in the state. Now if there was any branch of our service which required knowledge and experience it was our navy. And were we to be told that that department was to be managed by young inexperienced men, who were sent to tint Board only for the purpose of learning their business ? (Hear!)—The Hon. Baronet here expressed his regret that his Hon. Friend (Sir G. Warrender, as was understood) should have been removed from the Admiralty to the Board of Con troul. That Hon. Member had been a most efficient and active member of the Board of Admiralty—Wear !)--He would here relate to the House an anecdote of an Honourable Friend of his, who had been appointed a Commissioner of the Board of Controul. The gentleman to whom he alluded was desirous to devote his time and talents to his new appointment; but when he went down, he was informed that the Board was . not sitting ; that the President was out of town. lie thought it his duty to go down a second time, and not finding the Board sitting, lie waited patiently, expecting it to assemble; he was accosted by a person about the House, who told him that.lie had no business there. "Oh yes," said he, " I have business here ; lam a commissioner." " Well," said his informant, " the Board is not sitting ; you will be sent for when they are summoned." " But e: hen shall I receive the sum mons ?" asked his friend. The other said he could not tell " But when was the last summons issued ?" " Oh," said the person, who had addressed him, " the last summons issued about three years ago, and it is impossible to tell when there may be another."—(Hear, hear !)-He put it to the Commit tee, he put it to the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), who had pledged himself to every practical economy, if the pesent mo tion was not one which was entitled to his support! But the present situation of the Admiralty Board was such, that the situations were now looked upon as interests vested in the pre sent holders. In proof of this he would read to the Commit tee a document which had lately reached his hands. It was a circular from one of the most respectable mercantile houses in London, and was written upon one of the firm having been made a junior Lord of the Admiralty. It stated " that Mr. W. R. Keith Douglas having been made a junior Lord of the Admiralty, had retired and was no longer one of the firm" and was signed " Douglas Anderson and Co."—(A laugh.)—lt was certainly very proper that the Honourable Member should retire from business upon receiving such an appointment, but if the . present motion was carried, he would lose not only his business, but also his seat at the Board of Admiralty—(Hear, and a laugh.)—ln the present distressed state of the country, every possible reduction was necessary. The proceedings of the last night must satisfy Ministers that even that House thought a reduction of the expenses of the country was now a grand and important point. He hoped that those Gentlemen who supported the motion of his Honourable Friend last night, would agree, not only in the necessity of a general reduction of taxes, but also that every useless and unnecessary place ought to be abolished—(hear, hear !)—The Ilonourable Baronet concluded, by moving as an amendment that a sum of 55,6181: ss. Id. should be inserted, instead of the sum stated in the Resolution. Sir J. SEBRIGHT rose to give his support to the motion, and would take this opportunity of declaring his opinion that the proposed reductions were far from corresponding with the exigencies of the crisis.—(Hear, hear.)—So, too, he should con tinue to think, whilst there remained, under the present circum stances of the country, one useless office in existence. At the same time he could assure the Committee, that he was most anxious for the preservation of public credit, and should be sorry to find the regular sinking fund so nicely balanced and adjusted as not to produce any surplus over the 5,000,0001. But he called on the Right Hon. Gent. to do what ought to be prelhninary to the establishment of every sinking fund—he meant, to make all possible reductions. If, acting on this principle, they did not sueceed in creating an effective sinking fund, he knew not how it was to be accomplished. With respect to the point imme diately before them, he had on former occasions voted for a pro position similar in effect to this amendment. It might be said that the reduction was extremely trifling, but they were now contending for a principle.—(Hear, hear.)—lt required no sagacity to discover, but was in fact obvious to the whole world, and he made the remark without any personal feeling, that although the Lords of the Admiralty might receive com paratively little themselves, yet as Members of that House they might vote away millions.—(Hear !) Were they not sub ject to some influence, in their character as guardians of the public purse—of that purse, on which the continuance of their own salaries depended ?—(Hear ! )—lf these offices were really and truly necessary, let them remain ; but what man in his senses could believe, that as many commissioners were now required at the Admiralty, as during a period of active and successful warfare?—(Hear !)—There was nothing that excited a stronger feeling of discontent amongst his constituents, than the existence of these little unnecessary places. Complaints of this kind reach ed him from all directions. He trusted•lllinisters would reflect, how narrow an escape they had already experienced—that they had been able to carry a most important tax only by a ma jority of four ' • and of those who voted with them, how many must be regarded as judges in their own cause ?—( Loud cries of hear !)—lt could hardly be imagined that they were disposed to reduce or destroy a fund from which their own allowanceS were derived. For these reasons, though no man could be more anxious for the maintenance of public credit than himself, he called upon the Committee to persevere in the work of retrench ment. So far from being actuated by any hostility to the gentlemen opposite, lie rather wished them to retain their places. Without any disrepect to them, he might say that it was natural for them to aim at the preservation of their influence; but it was the duty of the House to keep that patronage within bounds and prove themselves to be, at a crisis like the present, the vigi lant and faithful guardians of the public purse.—( Hear !)' Sir G. COCKBURN said that he thought the Board of Admiralty was at present constituted on the best principles. There was one peculiarity in that Board which was to be found in no other—that of its being able to act separately, - on which circumstance in a time of war the safety of the State might depend. He thought any person who would only turn his attention towards it, would see the great and important duties which the Lords of the Admiralty had to perform.— Speaking merely with reference to the businessin London, would the Honourable Gentleman leave them but one Lay Lord to perform sit, because it would be necessary that three shouldhe at the out-posts ? Ile thought civilians much better calculated to discharge the duties of these offices, than those who had been brought up on another element ; they re quired persons of general knowledge and liberal education ; he thought even a lawyer would be of great use amongst them.— The Honourable Gentleman had said two thousand pounds was no trifling sum to reduce ; that was quite immaterial to his (Sir G.'s) argument ; he contended for the number on the ground of necessity, and therefore the amount of the salary was not connected with his question. He admitted that there might have been more business in war, but he assured the Hon. Gentleman there was still an ample Share remaining quite sufficient to employ their time. He was ready to admit the necessity of some naval officers for explanation of technical terms, but they were by no means more necessary than laymen. If he were asked which of the Lords of the Admiralty was - the most useful and active, lie would say it was a Lay Lord. He concluded by calling on the House not to be induced to lessen the number, on the supposition that there was not sufficient to occupy them, for lie could assure the House that they had no want of employment. Mr. BERNAL said it would appear from the statement of the Honourable and Gallant Member that some of the Lords were constantly absent at the outports. He (Mr. B.) never understood this before ; but he was satisfied the reduction might be made without injury to the public service. Last year there was a very high office which it was considered almoSt sacrilege to touch ; but the Ministers themselves had now abolished it.— He alluded to the Vice-Admiralship of Scotland. The Gallant Admiral had struck his flag. —(A laugh.)—The savings allud ed to by the Hon. Bait (Sir J. Osborne) he highly approved of, except those caused by the 'dismissal of Clerks. It there were less work for Clerks, there certainly must be less occasion for the Lords. The Hon. and Gallant Member had spoken of the necessity of having, a lawyer attached to the Board, but he (Mr. B.) believed the Board had standing Counsel, whose opinions were very often obtained at the public expense. Admiral SOTHERON agreed with his non. and Gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) that the Board of Admiralty ought to consist of Six Members. Mr. MARRYAT could not admit that the same degree of superintendance was necessary at the Board of Admiralty, now that our navy consisted of 14,000, as when it included 140,000 seamen.—(llear, hear !)—The Gallant Admiral (Sir G. Cock burn) had spoken with effect, and, were his own services in question, all would agree that they deserved somewhat more than a pecuniary reward ; but the condition of the country Was now such, that no public officer ought to be retained whose ser vices were not indispensable.—(Hear.) Lord ALTIIORPE could not agree in the necessity of a se parated Board for the performance of the duties out of London. He thought a Board of two in London would be quite suffici ent ; and he considered a difference of opinion between them very improbable, awl that even if it occurred, it would not, in the time of peace, be of a nature to require instant decision. On the whole, he was persuaded that two Lords might be safely reduced. Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, there were many public officers under the controul of the Board of Admiralty ; and that the judicial power of the Board extended to even cases of life and death. If he (Sir Isaac) were tried and found guilty at Portsmouth of mutiny, it was only necessary for the Board to say, by return of post, " Shoot that officer!"--(A laugh.)--If the men at the Board were not efficient, " Why," said the Honourable and gallant Member, " out with them and send them about their business."—(Laughter.)—But of the ne cessity of the Board, as at present constituted, he had no doubt. He knew that Lord Hood and Lord Gardiner, when they be longed to the Admiralty, had been detained there six weeks, without moving from it. Admiral HARVEY said, the attendance of the two Noble men alluded to by his Hon. and Gallant Friend, was in time of war. He (Admiral Harvey) would rather that only one Lord should be reduced ; but rather than be without reduction he should vote for the Amendment. Mr. GIPPS asked a question of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer relating to the Superannuation Fund; but he could not be distinctly heard in the Gallery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that a Bill would be brought in to settle the Superannuation Fund by a deduction of 5 per cent. from the Salaries. It was thought that this would be the most advisable course, as those from whom the 5 per cent. was to be taken would know that it was to provide a Fund for themselves. He should observe to the House that some of the salaries of this department were not provided for by annual vote but by perpetual acts, and could not therefore be touched by the present amendment. Mr. ELLIS spoke from under the Gallery, but in a tone of voice perfectly inaudible. We believe he supported the Amendment. Sir C. COLE said he was devotedly attached to every thing connected with his profession ; but fro►m a sense of duty to wards his constituents he should vote for the Amendment, as he could not concur in the necessity of ►maintaining six junior Lords in the time of peace. Mr. FORBES spoke a few words ; but the confusion was so great that he too could not be heard. We believe lie spoke in favour of the Amendment. Mr. LYTTLETON said he should vote for the amendment, upon the principle of the Noble Marquis's own plan of eco nomy—(Hear, hear. !)—H e (Mr. L.) had voted against a similar motion on a former occasion • but considering the altered state of the country and the general prevalence of distress, he trusted he should not be exposed to the charge of inconsistency by his vote of that night.—(Hear, hear !)—He wished economy to be enforced in the higher as well as the lower departments of the, public service ; as the impression of the absolute necessity of economy pervaded the minds of the most intelligent persons in the country. An HoN. IllEmilEn, whose name could not be learnt, spoke in favour of the reduction, on the ground of a desire to support public credit. • Sir G. WA RRENDER said he should not do justice to himself or his colleagues•if he did not state his opinion of the duties of the offices in question, and in this statement he trusted he should not be suspected of a desire to speak unnecessarily of himself. The administering of the funds of Greenwich Hospital always fell to the lot of one of the Lords, and from his decision numerous appeals were made to the Board. With respect to the general duties of the office, he should ob serve that in the first two years of the time lie had the honour to be in office he was absent only . two months. During the whole of the five years of his being in office he was com pelled to be in town during the months of July, August, Sep tember, and October. But finding the duties interfere with his private arrangements, he was under the necessity of resigning an office lie had held with so much satisfaction.—(A laugh)—lt was his conscientious opinion that those who held the office and discharged the duties of it, rendered an essential service to their country. Mr. GRENFELL said he should vote for the Amendment, believing that the same number of Lords could not be necessary in peace as in war. Mr. GOOCH said he had come down to the House deter mined to support the Amendment of the Honourable Baronet, unless the necessity of retaining the two Lords in question should be proved to his satisfaction. Nothing that he had heard convinced him, and lie should vote, for the Amendment.— (Cheers from the Opposition.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the question had been so amply discussed upon former occasions, that it was almost impossible to bring any new argument to bear upon it. As he admitted the principle of economy, and objected only to its application in the present instance, it was clue to the House that he should state the reasons which had induced the vote he should give upon the present question. The amend ment had been brought forward by the Honourable Baronet in the fairest manner ; and if he (the Marquis) understood the argument adduced in its support, it went, first, to the principle of Economy ; and secondly, to that of the interest of the Crown. Upon the first of these subjects he was free to confess, that the sum, though moderate, ought not to be overlooked ; but the House was called upon to balance 2,0001. against the probability of interfering with the public service ; a probability which had been strengthened by the opinion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) whose character in his profession, and in that House, stood too high to require any eulogium. The opi nion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend had been given as a professional man and a man of honour, and he had no doubt it would have its due weight with the House.—(Hear !)—The Hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Bernal) had noticed the Vice.Admiralship of Scotland. That had always been admittedly a sinecure, and had, as to income, been abo lished. At present it was merely an honorary office. The Noble Nord (Althorp) could, he thought, scarcely deny the necessity.of the separate Boards ; for it was impossible to ex pect that a man, even in a public situation, could be always at his post. Some relaxation must he allowed for a Public Officer as well as for individuals. He thought that without the two Lords in question the Board would be incomplete in itself and inefficient in its operation. His Honourable and Gal lant Friend was incapable of expressing the opinion-he had given if he did not sincerely believe its correctness. The question then was, whether, to save 20091. the House would deprive the Admiralty of the means of discharging its duties with energy ? The present had become a subject of so much interest out of doors, that Ministers would gladly give up the question if they could. It was his duty, and that of his col leagues, to economize wherever it could be done with safety, but he was determined not to yield to clamour. The second ' branch of the argument of the Hon. Baronet referred to the patronage and influence which was acquired by the appoint ment to these offices. He (the Marquis of Londonderry), cautioned the House against looking at the question in the way in which the Honourable Baronet wished them. If the influence of the Crown were considered too great, why had not • the Hon. Baronet followed the example of Mr. Dunning and of Mr. Burke, and brought this subject forward in a distinct and comprehensive point of view ? The course taken by Mr. Dunning and Mr. Burke in this respect had been manly and consistent. But the • principle of •the present question had been often argued by those, who, from. the nature of their pur suits, were incompetent to understand the subject. Let it not go forth that the Gentlemen on the other side of the House were purity itself.—(Hear, hear !)—Let it not be sup ' posed that nothing could occur to disturb the calm temper of the understandings of Honourable Gentlemen opposite, or betray them into an overstrained or unjust opinion of those who sat on his side of the House. As to Honourable Mem bers in that House who were in office being actuated 13;, ' sordid motives, he protested against the doctrine. As mum of sordid feelings entered into the conduct of the Honour able Gentlemen on the other side, in looking forward to the situations, which in the days they lived in, were no great • enjoyment.—(Hear.)—As to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Hertfordshire (Sir J. Sebright) on the subject, he ' would pass it over, but he must protest against the taunt which he had indulged in against himself, and those who acted with him. If the interest of the Crown !were, as had been stated, too great, he was sure. there was virtue enough in that House to keep it within due bounds. At no period hadthe popular influence upon that House been greater than now.— (Cheers.)—lle had no objection to the Hon. Baronet urging his motion that night on the ground of public economy, but he protested against its being supported on the pretence of di minishing the influence of the Crown. When a Noble Lord (Lord A. Hamilton) induced the House to entertain his motion on the subject of Scotch Burghs, he assured them that it was not connected with Parliamentary Reform. When the subject came to be discussed, however, it was obvious that the recom mendation of the Noble Lord would operate in that way.. It ' was this indirect way of attacking the constitution,which noone had the boldness to propose openly, that lie objected to. He had as sincere a desire as the :Noble Lord himself to effect Re form by all practicable means ; but he could not see any think* in the present motion to induce him to assent to it, and espe cially as it was moved on the principle of indirectly curtailing the influence of the Crown, he regarded it as a dangerous pre cedent.—(Cheers.) Sir J. SEBRIGHT entreated the indulgence of the House whilst he explained away the mistake which the Noble Mar quis scented to have made as to his sentiments. With respect to the Noble Marquis himself, if there was one man whom he could suspect of being less actuated by sordid motives than another, it was the Noble Marquis himself.—(Hear, hear !) —He could not conceive what he had said that night, or the night before, to give the Noble Marquis ground for thinking that he had so spoken of hint. He had merely said, that alt administrations were backward in parting with their patron age. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he understood the Hon. Baronet to say, that persons in office would vote in their own behalf ; and that the vote of last night was not given from motives of the purest nature. Sir J. NEBRIGHT admitted that be had said, that persons bolding sinecure offices might support the Noble Marquis from motives of a personal nature; but he never intended to al lude to any one individual. He attributed such motives to the minor appointments, but least of all did he mean to point at the Noble Marquis. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that however grate ful he might be to the Hun. Baronet, he really could not ac cept any compliments from him at the expense of his friends. —(Hear). Mr. S. WORTLEY contended, that the influence of the Crown never was lower than at present; and if he was call ed upon to vote on the motion. before the House, on that principle, he should vote against it. But if his vote was to be a declaration of his opinion whether the business of the Admiralty could he done with a less number of Lords than it at present had, he should vote for the motion of the Hon. Baronet (Sir M. Ridley.)—(Hear, hear !)—He believed it could be thine with a lower number, and he believed the cir cumstances of the times made it imperative on him to vote for the reduction of public establishments. He was bound to support all economy consistent with -the safety of the country. He thought the safety of the country would not be affected by the reduction of one Lord of the Admiralty, and therefore he was led to give his vote in favour of re trenchment.—(Hear, bear !) Sir M. W. RIDLEY replied. Nothing had occurred in the course of the debate to alter his opinion of the propriety of Iris motion. He congratulated himself on the support he was to have from the Honourable Member for Glamorgan shire (Sir C. Cole), who, crowned with the glories of his pro fession, was now ready to combat for the good of his country at Ironic. The question was not, as had been stated, whetber they should destroy the two Boards of Admiralty, but whe ther two Lords could do the business of the lower Board as well as three.—(Hear:) Che House then divided on the Amendment, when the ❑umbers were:— For the Amendment 182 Against it.. l2B Majority in favour of the Amendment --54 The next Resolution proposed was for a sum of 31,3041. !s -ad. to pay the Colonies, and defray the other expenses of the Navy Pay -Office, for the year 1822. . _ . Nil-. SLIME called the attention of the House to the fact, that no reduction had been made in this department on the principle of the Resolution passed at the end of last Session, pledging them to a reduction throughout all the public de partments, proportionate to the increased value of money and the diminished prices of all articles of consumption: - The reductions that had been wade were merely of a few mi' nor clerks, and no diminution whatever had been made in the salaries of any of those remaining on the Establishment, with the exception of the treasurer. He was extremely anxious last Session to call the attention of the House to the consideration of the nature of the duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, and of the business of the Navy Office. He, on that occasion, read to the House the Report of the Finance Committee, which described the nature of the duties of that office as differing little from the business of a banker. The Report also remarked with surprise, that the establishinent was the same in 1817 as in 1813, when there were so man) , millions less to pay. The reductions recommended were pro posed to be made with a regard to the amount of the business. ,If this were dune, the whole establishment of this office would not amount to. mote than half a dozen clerks, to which Standard he had endeavoured last year to persuade the House to reduce it. All the business of the office and the Treasurer, who received 30001. a year, was to give cheques upon the Bank of England, fur the amount of the different sows it became their duty to pay; and that was, as the Report truly stated, the precise nature of the business of a Banker. He knew they would be told of a Mr. Tweedie, who ; it would be stated, had left the country with a large sum of public; money in his hand, to the amount of many thousands. But he should like to know how that individual came to possess power over such an amount of public money, especially con sidering the very simple nature of the routine of that office. Instead of anveduction taking place, in compliance with the recommendation of the Finance Committee, or in proportion to the demands of the country, they had only a difference of cost of 10001. for this office from what it was when doing effective service. The only reduction of salary was in the case of the Treasurer, and the rest was made out of the re' mission of some pensions. All the salaries and charges, with these exceptions, were kept up at the same rate as they were. in 1813, although there was now a reduction in the prices 01 all articles of consumption, and an increased value of atone; to the amount of 45 per cent. He (Mr. H.) only confende o for a reduction of salaries to the amount of 25 per cent. Il e protested against the plan of the Chancellor of the Exchequ er to take five per cent. from small salaries, and 10 per cent' from the large, which was to form a fund to pay Sop e sannua" lion out of. This was in fact no reduction at all; and, stead of that plan, he proposed his own, of a reduction of 25 per cent. If he did what he thought was right, he wou' move for the abolition of the office altogether. But he wen tid. ,. content himself with moving, that the sum of 23,4781. be sou &Wilted fur 31,3041., being a reduction of 7,8261., at the rat e of 25 pet cent. Mr.F.ROBINSON felt much surprised at. the statement of the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman bad last yea I