The Sun. — London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

person. But. the Church had always been a body de dependent upon the governing power of the country. About 400 years ago, all that which was at present the property of the Church of England was enjoyed by her rival. It had been given to the Church of Rome by kings and princes. But, neve rtheless, in course of time it was considered that this property ought to be other wise disposed of, and it was therefore summarily taken away from the Roman Catholic Church and handed over to others. (" No, no.") He was at a loss to under stand that cry ; he certainly thought he had given - a cor rect statement of the facts. The truth was, that the property of the Church of England did not rest upon any contract, but upon the conviction existing in the ; minds of the people that they had the greatest interest in retaining the property in the hands of its present holders. "Upon the general question, then, this right of property could offer no answer to the bill. They could not, in the present advanced state of Canada, safely say to the Canadians that they should not have the power of dealing with public property there as it was dealt with in this country. In conclusion, the noble earl said that he did not believe the true friends of the Church were to be found in the opponents, but in the supporters of the bill ; and he called upon their lordships not to throw away the opportunity of effecting a settlement which would allay long existing distrust and ill-feeling, and the further delay of which would undoubtedly pro voke consequences for which he was sure their lordships were not prepared. Canada was now prosperous and loyal ; and he warned their lordships not to attempt to disturb so happy a state of things. The Earl of DERBY felt himself called upon to re mark upon the inquiry of the noble earl who had just down, with respect to the way in which he (the Earl of Derby) should vote on this occasion. From the state ment which he (the Earl of Derby) had made, the noble not consent must see that while, on the one hand, he could consent to adopt the bill in its present shape, was, on the other, very anxious to call their lordships' atten tion‘s, to a modification which he could only propose i n committee. Taking that view, he would w i s h the bi ll now to be read a second time ; and although he had no right to make any personal request of the rig ht rev. pre late, he would ventu re t o sugge s t th a t it would be for the convenience of their lordships that the amendment should be withdrawn. (Hear, hear. ) The Bishop of EXETER adopted the suggestion, and withdrew the amendment. The Duke of NEWCASTLE proposed to take the committee on the bill on Monday next ; and it would be an advantage that the noble earl should at once state the nature of the amendment. The Earl of DERBY said that the bill had only been delivered that day ; and as the committee was to be taken so soon after the second reading, the noble duke was hardly entitled to ask for the terms of the amend ment. Having, however, obtained a copy of the bill while it was passing through the other house, he had framed the amendment, and although he would not bind himself to the exact words, he would lay it on the table at once. The Duke of NEWCASTLE had not been aware that the bill had only been delivered so lately ; but at any rate it was read a first time a fortnight ago, so that there was no undue hkste in its progress. Several noble lords here stated that they had had the bill delivered to them several days ago ; and upon this the Earl of DEBBY acknowledged that he must then be mistaken. The bill was then read a second time, and their lord ships (at half-past eleven) adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Edinburgh High-street and Railway Station, &c, Bill, was read a third time. MAIDSTONE ELECTION. Mr. HUTT appeared at the bar and reported that the committee on this petition had determined that George Dod, Esq., was not duly elected for Maidstone, and that the last election for the borough, so far as concerned the said Geo. Dod, Esq., was a void election. The com mittee also found that he was by his agents guilty of treating, but it was not proved to have been committed with his knowledge or consent. KNARESBORO' ELECTION. The Members of the committee on this petition were called to the table and sworn. POST-OFFICE. Lord SEYMOUR moved for returns of salaries, wages, and allowance s o f th e Post-office department generally, divided into branches and classes, and showing the number of persons employed, and the amount paid under each class, in the year ending the sth of January, 1835, and in every subsequent year to the sth day of January, 1851 ; England and Wales—Branch 1, Me tropolitan ; Branch 2, Provincial ;—Branch 3, Colonial and tarts abroad. And similar returns for Scotland and Ireland. Agreed to. IRISH SPIRITS. Captain JONES moved for a return of the total num ber of gallons of spirits distilled and charged with duty in Ireland in each year from 1800 to 1852, both inclu sive ; the total amount of duty received in each year, and the rate of duty per gallon, distinguishing the num ber of gallons charged with duty for consumption ; also a series of other returns en the same subject. Agreed to. CLASSIFICATION OF OUT PORTS. In reply to an IloN. MEMBER, Mr. WILSON said he forgot to state last evening that it.was the intention of the Government to abolish the present system with regard to the classification of out ports, and to deal with each port according to the circumstances of each. Henceforward the salaries of officers would he fixed, and other arrangements made in reference to the trade at each port, and to the amount collected at it, and not according to any particular clas sification. NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND.) Mr. O'FLALIERTY moved for returns of the entire amount which had been expended by the Commissioners of National Education in each of the four provinces of Ireland for the last five years, including grants for build ing, repairs, and fitting up of schools, purchase or rent of agricultural schools, or model farms, free stocks of books, and school requisities, salaries, and gratuities to teachers, expenses , of inspection, and all other inci dental charges paid by the Commissioners, giving the amount expended in each province separately ; And of the several officers in connection with the Com missioners of National Education, both in the official establishment in Dublin and throughout the other parts of Ireland, who are in the receipt of 1001. per annum or upwards, specifying the sum paid to every such officer as annual stipend, travelling charges, house or office rent, or other incidental expenses, with the religious denomi nation of every such officer, and the county or province to which he belonged when he entered into the service of the Commissioners. Agreed to. RECORDS IN THE TOWER, Lord D. STUART gave notice that on Monday next he would move for a return of the number of tons of saltpetre kept under a room in which the Parliamentary records were deposited i❑ the Tower of London. METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS ACT. Lord D. STUART gave notice that on the same day he would ask the First Commissioner of Works and Building 3 whether it was his intention to bring in a bill for the amendment of the Metropolitan Buildings Act ? LICENCES FOR TRADE IN IRELAND. On the motion of Sir D. NORREYS, a return was agreed to of the comparative amount now charged for every licence for a trade or profession in Ireland. DUTY ON CURRANTS. In reply to Mr. EWART, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIi said it was not his intention to reduce the duty on currants to the same proportion as that on raisins, the former being more valuable. Though he proposed to reduce the duty on raisins to 125., that would still be a higher ad valorem duty than the 15s. now levied on currants. POST-OFFICE. In answer to Sir D. L. EVANS, Mr. WILSON said he was not aware that a petition had been sent to the Postmaster-General a month ago, soliciting him to fix the last delivery of letters at nine, instead of ten o'clock; but he would make inquiries, and ascertain whether, if such a petition had been received, any steps had been taken with reference to it. BARNSTAPLE ELECTION. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said a petition bad been pre sented to-night on the subject of the Barnstaple election committee, but he would suggest that no steps should be taken in it until after the motion for a commission had been disposed of. Mr. S. WORTLEY said be had no intention to found any motion upon it. DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS. On the motion of an HON. MEMBER the minute of council relative to dockyard promotions was ordered to be laid on the table of the house. BOARD OF HEALTH On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn until Monday next, Col. HARCOURT rose to complain that a return he had moved for as far back as the 12th of March last had not yet been laid on the table. The return related to the numbe r of persons employed as surveyors or engi neers under the Board of Health, specifying where so employed. Something- in the shape of a return had been laid on the table of the house, but it was grossly imper fect. Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the return had been l a id upon the table, though it was not printed ; and he was informed by the Board of Health that it was per fectly correct. The omissions which the hon. member complained of were attributable, not to the neglect of the Board of Health, but to the manlier in which the motion for the return was worded. SOUTH SEA AND OTHER ANNUITIES COMMU TATION BILL. _ - On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair for the house to go into committee on this bill, Sir F. KELLY said it had been his intention to have moved an instruction to the committee; or to have sub mitted some other form of amendment under which it, would have been competent for him to call the attention of the house to the very important principles involved in this measure, and especially to the great and important objection that it provided for a large increase to the capi- tai amount of the national debt—(hear, hear)—and also guaranteed payment for a period of forty years of the un reasonable and extravagant sum of 2/. 15s. per annum, as the income or dividend on the stock proposed to be affected. (Hear, hear.) But having understood that some technical or formal objection might arise to that course, and feeling also that he could, consistently with due regard to the forms of the, house, call attention to the whole subject in committee, it was not his intention to oPPose the motion for the . speaker leaving the chair. But when the second clause came under the considera tion of the committee he should enter upon the entire subject embraced by the bill, and state his objections to it. (Hear, hear.) The house then went into committee on the bill ; Mr. Bouverie in the chair. The first clause was agreed to ' • and on the second, which provides that the proprietors of the Three per Cents. may for 1001. of their stock receive 821. 10s.' New 3/. 10s., 1101. 2/. 10s. per cent., or 1001. Exchequer Bond, carrying interes at 2/. 15s. per cent. not later then the Ist of Sep tember, 1864, and after at 2/. 10s. per cent. Sir F. KELLY solicited the attention of the committee whilst he offered some observations, not merely upon the principle of the bill, but upon its provisions. The princi ple of the measure was unexampled in extent and impor tance. It affected a sum amounting to not less than 100,000,0001. sterling, and ultimately it might apply to 500,000,0001., if not to the entire amount of the capital of the national debt. If after the great and brilliant effort of oratory and reasoning with which the house was at once delighted and instructed last Monday, when ho, at least, could say he was left under the wand of the enchanter, he (Sir F. Kelly) now ventured to advance into the wide field of finance which had been opened by the right honourable gentleman, and upon the threshold expressed his entire dissent from the main pridciple of the scheme of this bill, he assured the committee it was not without much diffi dence and some apprehension. But he felt it his duty to call attention to the subject, for the scheme was one of a very peculiar character full of intricacies and difficulties. To the clear and enlightened mind of the right honourable gentleman, to an intellect which, like his, rejoiced in com plicated subtleties, such a task as ho had undertaken might be easy and pleasant ; but it must be his (Sir F. Kelly's) duty, with no other aid than a common and ordinary understanding, to endeavour to attract attention to the exact character of the details of this financial scheme-a scheme which he was bound to say appeared to him replete with perplexities, and abounding from beginning to end with contingencies and uncertainties. (Hear, hear.) The bill provided, in the first place, for the extinction and re demption of certain- South Sea and other minor stocks or annuities of the value or amount of about 10,000,000/. ster ling. To this he could have no objection. It was no doubt expedient that these minor stocks should be merged in the larger stock composing the national debt. That object, however, might be attained with the greatest facility, look ing at the present state of the money market, either by giving" the requisite notice and at once paying off the holders, raising 10,000,0001. for the purpose, or in any way that might be deemed expedient. But the right hon. gentle man evidently conceived that the time had arrived when certain great and important objects, which might have oc curred to the minds of other Ministers when in office, but which had never been submitted to Parliament in any distinct or tangible form, might be accomplished. These objects were three in number-first, to effect a large and substantial reduction in the capital amount of the debt; secondly, the creation of a permanent 26 per cent, stock ; and thirdly, the creation and issue, for the benefit of the mercantile community, and the relief of the public in general, of Treasury, or Exchequer bonds, transferable from hand to hand. If it were clear from the provisions of the bill that any one of these three great objects could be successfully accomplished, or even a preparation made, or a foundation laid, or the first step taken, consistently with D eceed faith to the national creditor, and the duty which every minister owed to the State, of securing a fair and not disadvantageous bargain for the country-if they or any one of them could be accomplished or even com menced without violating - the great constitutional princi ple that the amount of the national debt ought - not to be increased, unless necessity called for it-the bill would have received his sincere and cordial support. But after bestowing careful and minute attention upon the scheme, its intricacies, complications, and uncertainties, he had arrived at a strong and conscientous conviction, which he hoped to be successful in impressing upon the committee, that, as a whole, it was inconsistent, impracticable, mis chievous, and unjust-unjust, he meant, because it was unnecessary. (Hear, hear.) To make a large. and sub stantial addition to the capital of the national debt, and to make it under circumstances which led to a reasonable apprehension that the addition would bye-and-bye be multiplied twenty and even fifty-fold, was surely-object ionable; and therefore he felt called upon to oppose the principle of the bill, unless the right honourable gentleman consented so far to modify it as to strike out what he should hereafter call alternative No. 2 from the second clause, in order to avoid any increase to the amount of the national debt, and also for the payment of 21. 15s. per cent. upon the capital affected for a period of forty years. (Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to state, no t i n legal anguage, but in language intelligible to all, what the scheme was, and the three-alternatives or bargains which it proposed to the holders of the 10,000,0001. South Sea and other stock. As originally proposed, the sche me might have embraced 500,05D,000/. but as now proposed it would be limited under the bill to 30,000,0001. He would suppose the owner of 1001. South Sea Stock to come under the operation of the bill, and to be about to consider in what position he would be placed towards the Govern ment. He might receive 100/. ; that was, he might be paid off at par if he thought proper. Considering that all these were three per cent, stocks, and that all three per cent. stocks of the company were substantially at par, this was a very obvious mode of settling with the holder. But the right hon. gentleman proposed to submit to the o pti on , not only of the holders of the 10,000,000/. of minor Stocks, but of the holders of the 30,000,0001. of Three per Cent. Consols, and it might be to the holders of the whole 500,000,0001. Consols, one or the other of these alterna tives. But before proceeding further he must observe that the right honourable gentleman had stated-and stated necessarily, otherwise his scheme would at once be suicidal -that his three propositions were alternatives or equiva lents. This, indeed, was the essence of the proposal. So that any ono holding South Sea Stock or Three per Cents., would find himself in this position, that ho might accept either No. 1, No. 2, or No. 3 of the alternatives, accord ing as it might be hi s i n t eres t. N ow , a grea t objection, he felt was, that whereas these which were represented as equivalents were not equivalents, or anything approaching to equivalent ; for it would be found on practical experi ment, if the bill were passed, when it was too late to apply a remedy, that the difference between the one and the other, especially between No. 2 and No. 3, was so great that the people would wonder how the House of Commons could possibly have entertained the scheme. (Hear, hear.) Another objection lie felt was, that the Government, having the power of accomplishing the three great objects to which he had adverted, instead of proceeding to invite information as to what ought to be the real terms of the bargain, and taking the steps which any Ministry attempt ing sech an operation ought to have taken, had acted ex clusively upon their own judgment. Other Ministries had issued tenders to ascertain how the country would take that which they upon the part of the State offered to grant. But instead of applying such a test to the ques tion of what ought to be the terms of this great bargain, the right honourable gentleman-whose ability and genius he was the last to question or undervalue-had as sumed to himself the faculty of all knowledge. The right honourable gentleman, in framing this bargain, had left himself no option and no opportunity of making better terms ' • but he had assumed, as if by i n t u iti on , th a t he poss esse d the required information, and he had drawn his three propositions upon data or principles of his own, in-as he (Sir F. Kelly) presumed to think-entire igno rance as to what would be the extent, if he had invited tenders, to which the moneyed interest would have accepted the terms. Every holder of 1001. South Sea Stock or other stock had then the means of converting it into 1001. ster ling ' • and the question was w hi c h o f the three proposals he would accept. The first was this-that for his 1001. he should accept a 36 per cent. stock, of which the capital should be 82/. 108. ; that was to say, he might receive 821. 10s. capital stock for his 1001. sterling at a dividend of 2/. 17s. 9d., guaranteed for a period of forty years. What this alternative might be in connection with the others the time had not yet arrived for him to consider. - What it was, standing by itself, if proposed by itself, would be a fair subject for consideration. It was ono which, even if the bill had been confined to it, would leave the most ex perienced and sagacious among them some difficulty in de termining. It might well be considered a most important question whether 30,000,0001. of stock should he created by payments of 1001., guaranteed 2/. 17s. 9d. for forty years. But it was neither for him nor for the committee to say whether it was probable any one of these proposals would be accepted. If they should not, if they were so disadvantageous to the public creditor that no one could be found to accept the best of them, then the bill would fall to the ground a d ea d l e tt er, the 10,000,0001, of stock must be paid off, and some other means be found for rais ing it, and no great harm would he done. But he was not dealing with that case. It must be assumed, in order to deal with the effect of the bill, that the right hon. gentle man was right in holding that at least some one of the three alternatives would be accepted by the public creditor. Upon that assumption, looking at the present price of stocks, with the Three per Cents. at par, the scheme was just with regard to the Three per Cents., and no 'more. Looking, however, at the state of the money market, the condition of the country as regarded the precious metals, the state of Europe and the world-all these being practi cal considerations and elements in the calculations bearing upon the bill, he did not pretend to say whether any one of the three alternatives, when thrown open to the market, would be accepted. Perhaps one and perhaps another might be accepted, if each stood alone ; but he 'entertained a profound belief that no two would, to any substantial amount, be accepted. The alternative No. 2 was to re ceive for the same sum of 1001. sterling 2/. 15s-. per annum guaranteed for forty years upon a capital of 1101., as a con sideration of the 1001. The third was to receive 2/. 15s. per annum for a period which was left in uncertainty which was to depend upon the pleasure of the Government, ranging from one to ten years, and for the remaining years to have a guaranteed dividend of 21. 105. per annum only, and that. upon a capital of 1001. He would for the present pass over No. 1, which might or might not present to the fundholder a bargain he might deem satisfactory ; but he could not do so without saying, whatever might be the re sult of the bill, that the country was ,deeply indebted to tl.o right hon. gentleman for having, for the first time, submitted to Parliament a scheme for effecting a large and substantial reduction of th e national- debt. Although he would not pretend to guess, and it would be rash in any man to say whether this proposal presented an acceptable bargain or not to the stockholder, ho could not pass from it without observing that it would. undoubtedly effect a national saving of which it was almost impossible to speak in terms of exaggeration, for should this first alternative be accepted by not only the holders of the ten millions of South Sea and other stock, but by the holders of the 500 millions of Three per Cent. Stock, a saving to the country of nearly ninety millions sterling in the capital amount of the national debt would be effected without the increase, on the contrary, with a diminution of the annual expendi ture of the country. If the holders of the whole 510 mil lions of stock would be content, and at once come forward and accept this first alternative, which he-believed to be a fair and just and reasonable bargain, he conceived no mea sure which any finance minister in any country ever effected would approach in magnitude and, importance, and in the would then have a reduction in great and extensive benefit to the country, which would I from such an operation. Anthedwhy? national Because expenditure they of the capital ofPtheannur, and an immediate reduction in thou sand per t rut seven or eight, or nine hundred thou upward.4 of 90,000 national debt, as he had already said, of that the guarantee' of 27terling. (Hear.) It might be true It might happen that i n I.m. 9d. was for too long a period. fivei or ten years a reduction of a or a 6 per cent. on the i capital might make a difference of millions on tteeoserteigii:steal s c u a i l L. But, however that might be, he rejoicedi.t,ll, that this bargain was likely of the right hon. gentlen ink, on the high authority that to No. 2 and No. 3, upon which ie to be accepted to a large amount. ew lri l t h l i ii P s aB d s ut f y lo t na o make some observations. No. 2, as he b. had stated, began by adding 10 per cent. to the amount of capital of so much of the national debt as was brought within a sum which, applied to 10 millions of SouZ4h()reraaitlll7, and 30 milhons of. Three per Cents., to which the bill Was ( lad f t': - ) • .7 •_ ; now limited, would give at once an addition to the capital of the national debt of no less than four millions sterling. If he stood alone upon that objection, he said it was unans werable and insuperable. (Hear, hear.) A war, or any other great national exigency, might compel the country to submit to the increase of the national debt, and justify them in agreeing to that increase, but he ventured to deny that the smallest increase ought to be made unless in a case of imperative necessity, in which the honour of the coun try was concerned ; and he should show, from the state ments and admissions of the right hon. gentleman himself, that this-not to use the word wanton-was a perfectly useless and unnecessary sacrifice of three or four millions, or whatever sum would ultimately be added to the capital of the debt. (Hear, hear.) The argument put forward with all the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman and of the Secretary to the Treasury, was, that this sacrifice of three, or four, or 50 millions, if applied to the whole debt, was well made to secure the inestimable advantage of a two-and-a-half per cent. stock. Unless the right hon. gen tleman himself was greatly in error, he might obtain that advantage without the sacrifice, without the guarantee of 21. 15s. per cent„ on cheaper andi betterterms, and left the debt at its present amount. It was also said that thcliaddi tion of 10 per cent. to the national debt was really not an evil ; and on a former evening he was severely taken to task for having treated, or rather having been thought to have treated, the nominal amount of the national debt as so much money in the possession of the stockholder. He would not for a moment assert that the possessor of 1101. stock was the possessor of 1101. sterling. They all knew that 1101. stock was worth just as much and no more as it would produce by sale in the market, and undoubtedly the holder of that stock was not possessed of 1101. It was argued that it was immaterial to add 10 per cent. to ihe capital, because it was a mere nominal sum, and the debtor could not call on the State to pay it off. Of course the same argument would go to make it immaterial whether the debt was 5001. or 8001., or a thousand millions. But he said in the present times, with the present prospects of the country as to the value of money, and as to the rate of interest, to add to any stock in existence or to be created 10 per cent., while the interest was to be 23 per cent., was to do great injustice to the State and to the people which members of that house represented. Who could say how soon the time might not arrive when it would be to the interest of the State to pay off even 2 per cent. stock ? This bill dealt with a period of forty years. He must re mind the house that forty years ago the Throe per Cent. Stock was at 60. Since 1813 the price of Three per cent. Stock had increased from 60 to 100, and the rate of interest had been diminished from 5 to 3 per cent. In the forty years now completed the interest of money in the funds hid fallen 2 per cent. Looking then to the increasing com merce and prosperity of the country, to the vast amount of capital at their disposal, at the great influx of capital from foreign states, where the same confidence as to poli tical affairs did not exist, was it extravagant or reasonable to suppose, trusted as this country was to an indefinite amount by the whole civilised world, that in the next forty years the interest on the money in the funds would fall from 3to 2 per cent. (Hear, hear) ? Whenever that fall took place, and the time came to pay off the debt, the honourable member would find that it was not altogether immaterial whether the debt was 100 or 110 millions, since on every hundred pounds they would have to pay 101. more than if this operation had never been sanctioned by Parliament. But it was not in the in crease of the national debt, it was not on the improvidence of the bargain by whi c h the right hon. gentleman bound the Countrylfor the long period of 40 years, but by the com parison which he should institute between No. 2 and No. 3 that he rested his great objection to the provisions of this bill. It was said these were equivalents. Let them take the case, and suppose a gentleman being a holder of Three per Cent. Stock. to convert 1001. into No. 2, and another 1001. into No. 3, what did he get by No. 3 ? He paid 100/. or 100/. Three per Cent, Stock, which was now the same thing ; he received a guarantee, for from one to ten years, of 21. 15s. per year. - And here, in passinm, he would , ob serve, it seemed a sort o f uncertain and shifting guarantee, and that they were invited to sanction a bargain being en tered into on the part of the State without knowing what the terms were, leaving it to the option of the Government to give a guarantee for one year or for ten years. He beg ged to ask if the right hon. gentleman possessed the evi dence and the basis for the calculation ; and if he did not possess them, he was at a loss toknow how the calculations could be made at all-how it was ho was unable to tell the committee whether the guarantee was to be for one, for five, or for ten years ? lie (Sir F. Kelly), and better cal culators than himself, might be inclined to think the com mutation exceedingly beneficial if the guarantee was for one or two years, but very disadvantageous indeed if it ex tended to so large a period as ten years. (Hear, hear.) Turning again to the comparision. What would the gen tleman receive upon his 1001. in No. 3, even with the Ut most extent of guarantee which the Government was au thorised to give ? He would receive for his 100/., 21. 15s. a year for ten years, and 2/. 10s. a year, and no more, for the remaining thirty years ; and now and until he was paid off, he was going to say for ever, his capital would be 1001., and 1001, only. But what would he receive for his 1001. in Nn. 2 ? He would bring forward 100/. only, as in the other case, but he would receive from the Government a guaran tee of 2/. 15s. per cent. or capital of 1101. Substantially speaking, he would receive only 2/. 10s. for forty years on No. 3 as contrasted with 21. 15s. for forty years on No. 2. In one he would have' a capital of 100/., in the other he would have a capital of 1101. All he could say was, that if these propositions were identical, if these two bargains were precisely equivalent and the same, he should hence forth have no faith in arithmetic, or in the organs of his Own understanding. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the right hon. gentleman would meet these objections with that fair ness, openness, and candour, which belonged to his charac ter, and explicitly inform the house upon what principle he could call these two contracts equivalent, one giving 1001. capital and 21. 10s. interest for forty years, and the other giving 1101. capital and 2/. 15s. i n t er e s t forty years. (Hear, hear.) They were told that these transferable bonds would be so valuable to the mercantile community that they would make up to the holders of them the entire difference between the advantage of one bargain and the disadvantage of the other. Was that so ? Would thest bonds, on which the State would pay 2/. 10s. for forty years, and acknowledge 100/. of debt, be so much more valuable that the public would accept them as willingly as registered stock of 1101, and carrying 21. 15s. interest for the same period of time'? If that was so, perhaps the right hon. gentleman would tell the committee and the country why he did not stop with No. 3, why ho restricted the amount, why ho did not raise the whole debt on such terms, instead of adding 50 millions to it, as he would by No. 2 ? - Ile was at a loss to conceive any answer to that question. In no instance could injustice be done to the stockholder, because nothing was c om p u l sory -h e m i g ht or might not accept the third alternative. He therefore would ask the right hon. gentleman to explain to the com mittee how, consistent with his duty to the country whose pecuniary interests were entrusted to him, he could pro pose or consent to give to any stockholder 2/. 15s. for forty years and acknowledge 110/. debt, when on his own state ment he could easily obtain the same capital at 21. 10s. for forty years and acknowledge only 1001. debt. If these two bargains were applied to the wh o l e b o dy o f Th ree per C ent. stockholders in the kingdom by number three, the State would acknowledge a debt of 500 millions, which whenever there was a fall in the rate of public interest, could be paid off with that amount of sterling money, and the interest in the forty years would be 13,750,000/. whereas by No. 2 the State would acknowledge a debt of 550,000,000/. and the interest in the forty years would be 15,000,0001. So that in the one case they would add to the debt 50,000,000/., whilst in the other they would not add to it at all, and save in interest in forty years 1,250,0001. He believed, therefore, he had not used too strong a phrase when he said it was a perfect delusion to hold out these two pro posals as equivalent and identical. (Hear, hear.) To his utter astonishment, he had almost said consternation, the right honourable gentleman told the house the other night that these bonds would be so much more valuable than the registered stock as to countervail the difference of bargain. Did the right honourable gentleman remember what lie was saying, or the import of his words ? Did he mean the house to assume that the preference for transferable bonds over registered stock was worth par cent. on the interest and 10 per cent. on the capital ? Did the hon. member reflect on the value of .1 per , cent. per annum when appli e d on the whole capital debt? Again, he would ask why, if one stock was so much preferred, did the right honourable gentleman withhold the bonds from the public ? The Go vernment had to pay a large sum annually to the Bank of England for the management of registered stock, but with these bonds no management would be necessary, and therefore it could not be on the ground of expense. What he said on a former evening he ventured to repeat, now, that there was no real, substantial difference in the value of transferable bonds and registered stock. It was true in this country he was speaking without experience. Fivan clad ministers of this country had never yet thought fit to issue transferable bonds of the nature of these Exchequer bonds, and it would be a problem difficult to solve, and a question not very easy to answer, why th ey had not issued such bonds, but for one consideration. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman would find in this scheme that his Ex chequer bills would disappear from the market, and appear before him in a form not very pleasant to his eyes. He might find the t instead of having 170,00,0001, or 18,000,000/. of unfunded debt, at 16 per cent. interest, it would be su perseded by Exchequer bonds at 2i per cent. for a certain number of years, and 23 per cent. afterwards. That might be the reason why bonds had not been issued in this country. But he was at a loss to imagine how the Secre tary to the Treasury could state that these bonds would be worth 10/. per cent. more than registered stock, and that the two descriptions would run parallel with each other in the market. True, they had no practical experience, but, they could move by the light of experience derived from other channels. In Franco and in Holland and in other commercial countries of Europe, bonds to the amount of millions and millions transferable exactly as these Ex chequer bonds, were issued by the Government, and were in circulation in those countries or elsewhere. If the Go vernment wished to know whether Exchequer bonds would be higher in the market than registered stock, the question could be answered by reference to where Exchequer bonds or similar securities existed. If any one wanted to invest 10,000/. in Paris, or Amsterdam, or Hamburg, the broker would ask whether he desired certificates to bearer, or to be registered as the stockholder, and he would find both descriptions at the same price, convertible one into the other. If he wanted to buy French Renter or Dutch bonds at a distance, no doubt they would be or 3 per cent. higher for the convenience of transfer; but no sub stantial difference existed, and it was a perfect fallacy to suppose that those Exchequer bonds would be worth more than the merest, inappreciable trifle, in comparison with registered stock, provided they were both issued upon the same conditions. Then how stood this question betu een No. 2 and No. 3 ? The Government brought forward this' scheme, and alleged to the public-that they might accept. 100/. stock in No. 3, or 110/. stock in No. 2, and that they, were equivalent; and they told the house, and he presumed the right honourable gentleman would tell the committee, that they considered these two stocks precisely identical and of the same value, and that 30 millions of No. 3 would be as likely to be taken as 30 millions of No. 2. If that wore so, he could only say that the stockholders of this country were in the singular position of knowing no dif ference between 1001. and 1101., and between 2/. 10s. and 21. 15s. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Then what wou ld b e ' the result? The consequence would be, not as the right' honourable gentleman facetiously observed, that limbs would be broken in the rush for No. 3, but not until No. 2 was exhausted would No. 3 be accepted, and then only in case tho demand for transferable bonds should be Fargo enough to induce the fiuunxAder to submit to what would ho a great sacrifice as compared with the advantages obtained under No. 2. Even sup posing both stocks were wholly taken up, that would not lessen the gross injustice inflicted on the holders of No. 3. He was quite aware of the great im portance of the object in view—the creation of a Two-and a-Half per Cent. Stock—but ho also felt that it was of far, greater importance that, unless upon some great national necessity, the capital of the debt should not . be increased. s ot t or a considerit o t o t a o a n m g He therefore urged upon the Government to at once dis-, card from this clause the proposal or alternative. If they procure the stockholders to accept a large and sub-. o ho c e_u k ai: underb guarantee.rbN e o w . ya s l e , e h f, o 3rp w . o .mo u ru ld efih n ve o ni t yo s ean to ersy p olvau_htnict;itho:e. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 18!)3 hence the Government would . probably obtain better terms), because he was of opinion that a great national benefit would be effected, and the amount of the national debt pro tanto would be reduced. (Hear, hear.) With re gard to the Exchequer bonds he felt, in common with the right honourable gentleman, the great benefit they would confer on the commercial community ; but he would sug gest for the right honourable gentleman's consideration whether by issuing so large an amount he would not drive the whole of his Exchequer bills out of the market. He objected to the bill in so far as, if passed into law, it would enable the stockholders to exchange their stock against alternative No. 2, and he called upon the Government to do justice to the public by refusing to complete such a dis advantageous and extravagant bargain, and by trying first what might be done to induce the hold ers o f s t oc k to ac cept the transferable bonds. By that means they would avoid the necessity of increasing the capital of the national debt, would have time to acquire a larger amount of expe rience than they at present possessed, and would lay the foundation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, an object which they deemed of such great national importance. He concluded by moving that the clause embodying alter native No. 2 be expunged from the bill. Mr. SPOONER objected to tying up the hands of the Chanceller of the Exchequer for forty years by entering into a guarantee for that period. At the present moment the holder of 1001. , stock received 31. of interest, but it was proposed to offer him 821. 10s. at the end of forty years, and for this guarantee th e na ti on wou ld no t save more than 2s. 3d. percent. The operation might be per formed in a short time, with more benefit to the country, and be would therefore propose that the guarantee should be limited to the term of twenty years. The CHAIWELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if be could believe with his honourable friend that the proposed guarantee was too favourable to the public creditor, he would at once accede to his motion ; but this was a ques tion of calm, careful, deliberate opinion, and after endea vouring to form the best judgment he could upon it, he was convinced that the guarantee proposed in the bill was that which the house should adopt. The honourable and learned gentleman opposite appeared to think that no harm would be done by omitting one of the alternatives offered to the holders of stock. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was of an entirely contrary opinion. (Hear, hear.) His view was, that th e di gn it y o f P arl i ament would be lowered by such a proceeding, and that the wisdom of Parliament anct of the Government would be exhibited in a ludicrnis light, if they came out with offers altogether unequal to the just expectations of the stock holders. (Hear, hear.) An honourable gentleman near him had given notice of a motion to limit the amount of stock convertible into the proposed Three-and-a-Half per Cents. He could understand the meaning and object of that motion, because if their knowledge was limited it was right they should limit the range of their experiment. All along he hid found great difficulty when dealing with this subject, in c o n sequence o f th e ignorance which pre vailed. The opinions of hon. gentlemen in that house were all well enough ; but those opinions would not help him when he went to the stock market and endeavoured to transact business there. (Hear.) It was, no doubt, very satisfactory to know the opinion of any honourable member of that house with reference.to a subject of such vast importance as the present ; but that opinion was as light as a feather in the stock market, and would not, he was afraid, assist him much in his financial operations. hA laugh.) But it was i mpor t an t t o b eer i n m i n d w h at is proposal really was. They were now about to pay to the holders of 500,000,0001. of Three per Cent. Stock, either perpetual annuities of 31. per cent. per annum, or 1001. in hard cash, and that 100 d. not taken piecemeal, but at once, after the expiry of twelve months' notice. They were under such conditions at present that; unless they could amend them, it was perfectly hopeless and impossible to attempt an operation upon the capital of the debt. There was no man in his senses who would say, either in the pre sent, or in a more faVourable, or, indeed, in any conceiva ble state, that at the end of twelve month's notice they would be prepared to pay up the whole of 500,000,0001. of debt. It was therefore he came to the house and said, " Let us feel our way gradually—let us proceed upon the principal of varying the terms and conditions on which the public debt is held—let us endeavour to improve them likewise, both as to the rate of interest immediately avail able and the plan of subsequent redemption." By adopt ing that course, they would not subject themselves to the necessity of paying an enormous sum upon,twelve months' fair not to the bu wouldhtolders of secure the he would d s w re h li l e c v h e , w th h e ile p p u e b r l f i e:t i l n y 'part from a heavy annual burden. That was a great ob ject of policy. The terms they offered must be liberal, and he believed it would be far better to offer too much than too little. (Hear, hear.) If they offered too much, their experiment was but limited, and when they came to takerepeat advantage or extendof i t the they experience contthey raet ha t d he aci ir e t u e i rm red s . , and On the other hand, if they went into the market and offered too little, he had no hesitation in saying that there would be a reaction highly un f a vourable to the scheme. (Hear, could hear.) What was the purpose of the alternative before the house ? It was this—that they should say to the holder of 1001. of stock, "If you will submit to an annual loss of 2s. 3d. upon your• dividend, and likewise to the acceptance of 821. 10s. of capital stock in Three-and-a-Half per Cents., instead of your 1001., we will give you a guarantee for a period of forty , years." What did the public gain ? It gained an immediate remission of about B th per cent. upon the interest, and the chance of the redemption of the capi tal after forty years, at a reduction of 17/. 10s. per cent. He was far from saying that the public gained a certainty of redemption at the end of forty years for 821. 10s. He thought, judging from 'experience, that in no long time after the period mentioned an opportunity for redemption would occur, but he would not say it would occur exactly at the end of forty years. At all events, however, the public gained ith per cent. upon the interest. and after 40 years the power of redemption, whenever the financial state of the country would enable them to exercise it. (Hear, hear.) He thought that these were very consider able advantages indeed, and for his own part he would not consider it an improvident transaction if the House of Commons were disposed to act upon the whole public debt upon such terms at the present moment, and undoubtedly he should regard the Minister as fortunate who should be the instrument of effecting such an operation. (Hear.) At the same time he did not object to limit the operation for the present, because it would still be in his power to come back to Parliament and ask leave to extend it. He hoped he had now laid the question clearly before the committee, and he confidently submitted that no case had been made out for diminishing the guarantee proposed in the bill. If the stock so guaranteed should be taken up by a portion of the present holders of stock, that would not be considered as pledging the house to offer the same guarantee to the rest of the stockholders. The house in that case would as a matter of course improve the terms offered—improve them, he meant, as regarded the interests of the public— but in the meantime, in order that the scheme might bo favourably received and established, it was necessary that a good guarantee should be given. (Hear.) Mr. SPOONER wished to know if the present discus sion was limited to the South Sea and other minor stocks, or if it applied to the whole of the Three per Cent. Stock ? The CHANCELOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that the clause before the house had reference solely to the minor stocks. Mr. SPOONER said that in these circumstances he would withdraw his motion, for, while he strongly ob jected to tying up the hands of the finance minister for so long a period as forty years, still he did not think th e minor stocks of sufficient importance to justify his inter vention at that stage of the discussion. Sir F. KELLY agreed with the last speaker that - it was unnecessary to offer any objection to that part of the bill which related to the South Sea and minor stocks ; but he thought it right to state, for the info rma ti on o f th e Chan cellor of the Exchequer, that he should raise the very same question when they came to consider the guarantee for 40 years to 30,000,0001. of stock. He coincided in the opinion expressed by the right hon. gentleman opposite, that it would be better to offer too much than too little, still he thought the terms proposed were too liberal, and when the proper time arrived he would submit a motion to the house upon the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they were now dealing with the clause which related exclusively to the South Sea and other minor stocks ; but it appeared from the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman op posite, that while he would not object to the 40 years' guarantee in regard to those stocks, he intenied to raise the question when the committee came to consider the more important portions of the scheme. He only desired to point out to the hon. and learned gentleman that it would be better to discuss the point in connexion with the question he had himself raised with respect to the Two and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. The course hitherto pursued had been in strict accordance with established and consti tutional usage. Although the resolutions of the house had no effect in point of law, yet, with regard to the commu tation and redemption of stock, the course of proceeding had always been that the resolutions of the house -a , ere acted upon by the parties whose duty it would be, under the act of Parliament, to give the requisite notice of the redemption. Accordingly, acting strictly upon that prin ciple, Mr. Speaker had communicated to the holders of stock the resolutions at which the house had arrived. Now the resolutions ran in these terms—that the holders of minor stock should give .notice within a given period of their intention to claim such and such stock in lieu of what they now hold. Their right therefore to give such notice had certainly been in existence for a considerable number of days, and although he was not in a condition to say whether any such persons had given such notice, or whether they had even formed an intention to do so, yet he felt himself some doubts and scruples about any inter ference at all with the terms upon which the house had declared its intention to deal with those minor stocks. Mr. F. KELLY declared himself much astonished at what had just fallen from the right hon. gentleman. He never understood that in adopting the resolutions brought forward by the right hon. gentleman—a step which the right hon. gentleman himself represented as necessary to enable him to introduce a bill — the house pledged itself to support the whole of the alternatives offered to stock holders. None of the alternatives, he contended, had y e t received the direct sanction of the house, nor had the house agreed to the issue of any such notice as that which the right hon. g en tl e man stated had been sent to the holders ef minor stock. Mr. HUME took precisely the same view as the hon. no tice binding the house to the and learned gentleman, and he considered it a dangerous precedent that any alter natives embodied in the bill should have been given to the holders of stock. With respect to the general question, he proposed might be safely tried, he thought, as an experiment. He ha d no ob j e ction to debt, though the plan now a strongly objected to increasing the capital of the national reasonable amount of security being given, of the there was much truth in the remark Chan cellor of the Exchequer that, in ord er to secure the to offer superior esta blishment of the stock, it was necessary terms. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that both the hon. and learned gentleman and the hon. member for Montrose had entirely misapprehended him. He never intended to convey th 3 idea that the house had pledged itself to pass the three alternatives embraecd in the bill. What he did say :was that legal notice had been given by an officer of that house to the holders of the minor stocks, that certain resolutions had been adopted by the commit tee and reported to the house, so that the parties in ques tion might have time to form their judgments on the sub ject. That did not bind the house to anything. Mr. SPOONER withdrew his amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I regret to find, after the very kind manner in which the honourable and learned gentleman •has referred to me, and after the favourable terms in which he has spoken of the bill, that his objections to the scheme are of such a broad and sweeping character. I was at a loss for some time to understand to what part of the plan his objections applied. At ono time it appeared as if his objections were limited to the question of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock ; while at others he described the whole scheino as being impracticable, incon venient, and unjust. I am bound to say that I think the objections of the hon. and learned gentleman do really go to the root of the bill. • I think his remarks have been dic tated by certain commercial and politico-economical :views, which undoubtedly are at variance with mine. The hon. and learned gentleman appears to think it is perfectly safe to assume, and to act upon it as a practical principle, that we are going to create a grea t revo l u ti on i n the value of money. He refers to a state of things forty years ago, when he says the value of money was 5 per cent., whereas it is only now 3 per cent. He infers, therefore, that the value of money will continue to fall, as heretofore, as if the process had been in steady and continuous working from time immemorial. But what is the use of going back only forty years ? If you go back at all, you should go a little further. Go back more than 100 years, when, as I stated on a recent occasion in this house, the value of money was less than 3 per cen t., an d when Three per Cent. Stock sold in the London market at 106/. and 1071. Well, that is a most vital fact, and if circumstances had not ch forty ah ne a da n t g vhy e deeer very f w ra csui unwise with oh r i r ea s seh , t oo l t nuh t ele h ; i v n an k ßl outoettdh of fire b rmo i 1 I b nu son anee e tfy fo arons r mt h stood e oeptdrhoeaactvhe proceeding du u ice s nhh e wou l d ga anwgr rate with the measure now upon the table. The hon. and learned gentleman speaks in very vivid and glowing terms of the growing wealth and prosperity of the country. I was sur prised to hear these expressions from the lips of the hon.' and learned gentleman, for I have been under the impres sion, for some considerable time past, that the hon, and learned gentleman entertained very different views of the state and prospects of the country, and that he occasionally. indulged in such prophecies as only the most melancholy, imaginations could conceive with regard to the results of our present mode of commercial legislation, under the -in fluence of which he says England is not only careering along the road to ruin, but has nearly reached the goal. (A laugh.) lam glad the honourable and learned gentle man has seen cause to change his views, though I am afraid he is likely to fall into the other extreme, for he looks not, only for the increasing prosperity of the country, but like wise for a considerable, continuous, and permanent decline in the value of money. He proposes to legislate upon that consideration, and finds fault with us for giving a forty years' guarantee, by which he thinks we shall cheat our selves out of a great deal we should otherwise have. I need not say that these are not the views upon which the construction of this bill has been based. (Hear.) We acknowledge that there is a tendency to depreciation in the value of money, and we seek to avail ourselves of that tendency ; but we do not go the length of the hon. and learned gentleman in his prognostications of the continued fall in the value of money until it reaches a point much below what it is at present, and we think that schemes of a speculative and illusory nature would be injurious to the country and unworthy of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman spoke for some time in a man ner which I could not follow ; but I presume his remarks were pointed to the improvement which would be made in the scheme by the omission of one of the alternatives. Now, I think if Parliament were to send me into the money market with a maimed and impracticable scheme in 'my hand, it would be one of the most unwise things it could possibly do, discreditable to itself, injurious to the public, and destructive of the proposed plan. (Hear, hear.) Whatever the committee decides upon, I do trust it will define to itself clearly the object it proposes by this bill. If it does not approve of that object, let it reject the bill altogether ; but if it does approve of it, then I hope it will not stint us of the means necessary to the attainment of the object in view. (Hear, hear.) Again, the hon. and learned gentleman has expressed his dissent from the entire principle of the bill, and has spoken of the ruinous and ex travagant rate of interest, 21. 15s. which we are about to guarantee ; and he h a s likewise referred to the expediency of not increasing the capital of the national debt. These are the points upon which I will trouble the com mittee with a few remarks farther on ; in the meantime I will notice another observation which has fallen from the honourable and learned gentleman, who insisted that the scope of this measure is to be extended hereafter, and that, if possible, it is to be applied to the whole of the 500,000,0001. of debt. -- Now, here the hon. and learned gentleman entirely misconceives my position. He says that because I ask you to give me leave to operate to the extent of 30,000,0001. of the Three per Cent. and Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stocks, it therefore follows that when that stock shall have been exhausted I shall come and request you to authorise me upon the same terms to create more stock. Now that is an entire misapprehension of the object of this bill. The object of the bill so far as regards the Two-and a-Half per Cents. is entirely different. It is to give terms to secure the establishment of the stock, but having esta blished the stock you may then improve the terms, and so far from asking power to create more stock upon the same terms, I should say, without being able to anticipate the precise course events will take, that it would not be proper to give the same guarantee. (Hear.) The stock once esta blished, you will have standing ground upon which to take up your position in order to extend and increase your finan cial operations, and you will be in circumstances to create additional stock upon terms more favourable to the public as well as more favourable to the creditor. The hon. and learned gentleman opposite occupied a considerable length of time by frequently reiterating, but not thereby mate rially strengthening, the assertion that the three proposals or options offered to the public creditor are not equi. alents, and he accuses me of having said they were equivalents. Now the hon. and learned gentleman ought to know per fectly well, that when we speak of equivalents in this mat ter, we do not mean equivalents simply and solely accord ing to arithmetic a l ca l cu l a ti on. C ons id erations of conve nience enter into price --considerations of security enter into price —and we can put into figures the value of a forty years' guarantee, and the value of the power of transfer. ring public securities by an easy and inexpensive mode. When I stated that these things are equivalents, I meant to speak with the submission and the hesitation which every man ought to entertain with regard to his own judg ment; but the learned gentleman speaks positively on the point, and says there is a very large difference in actual money in favour of the Two-and-a-Half and against the Three-and-a-Half. Proceeding by arithmetic alone, no doubt be was right, but I of course consulted an actuary on the point on which the learned gentleman is so decided, and his answer showed a different opinion to that of the learned gentleman. Of the 1101. he pronouncod the pre sent value to be 01/. 13s. 4d. ; of the 821. 10s., he pro nounced' the value to be 961. ss. This Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, which is supposed to be so absurdly infe rior in value that it cannot, according to the learned gen tleman, be for a moment put in competition with the Two and-a-Half, is estimated more highly by the actuary of whom I speak. In considering these equivalents, there are, it should be remembered, a great variety of elements which we ought to take into consideration. Some of these elements are certain, some uncertain, and we can only be guided in regard 10 them by th e li g ht of experience. The learned gentleman is not satisfied to treat this question as most people of experience in money matters treat it, as a matter of great difficulty, about which all prospective opi nions should be pronounced with great hesitation. He says that this is demonstrated, and that that is demonstrated, and tells us that it is perfectly monstrous, if you can se cure the circulation of bonds at 21. 108. for forty years, you should give the holder of stock 21. 15s. and then 1101. The learned gentleman said, " Why not stop at these bonds— Eou may immort a li se y ourse lf by i ssuing 500,000,000 o f xchequer bonds ?" That is the proposition he demon strated himself so clearly. I am repeating the words of the learned gentleman, who said, " These Exchequer Bills aro capable of being floated, or they are not ; if they are not, why found expectations upon them ? If they are, why not convert the whold . of the Three per Cents. into them ?" Sir F. KELLY explained that ho had only recommended trying them as far as they could. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER The learned gentleman never intimated that slightest difference between the practicability 20,000,0001. of them and the practicability of issuing e 50 0,000,000 1 . Now, there is a differense, and though they pricem a y b u e p u t s o e useful that point, to a w certain h avor f was issuing it and that price by experience. I have, for that reason, only for to take unlimited power would be to . discredit them in we intended to the first instance, and would look as if have-to point, ascertain and otbhtaati obtain point n given ve asked your authority to issue them to a limited amount, flood the market. When, however, you have ascertained ct the wants of the commercial community, you can conduct your future operations accordingly. But the learned gen tleman saysth e r a e n i c e l goes further, and says it is perfect n folly and ab surdityof. e to suppose there is any difference e th t 1 stock, "alue s of these two things— no appreciable difference ; the price Exchequer-bonds annu t y Exchequer-bonds and 50s. on registered 5Qs. secured on stock—woull be identical. There again I think he forms his conclusions with a degree of positiveness which would have surprised me if he had dedicated his life to these reg questions instead of devoting it to the engrossing labours of his honourable profession of which he is so deservedly distinguished a member. It appears to me, on the con trary, that though we cannot at the prese n t morxent tell what the value of these funds will be, it i s reasona bl e to suppose that there will be a very considerable valu e attach ing to these Exchequer-bonds, from their convenience, over and above what registered stock wo u ld h ave to a certain class of holders. He complains also, that it is not definitely fixed in the bill on what terms these bonds are to be issued. It appears to me that it would not have been right to fix that. Our duty is to issue, on the best terms that we can ' • and it was impossible for me t o h ave formed a rational computation beforehand. If I had endeavoured to compute the terms on which they were to be issued, I should have put them too high or too low ; the only course was to ask, within reasonable limits, for a dis cretion when the time came, because we shall then be in a position of fuller knowledge, and shall enjoy fuller means of judgment than it is possible we can at the present moment. The learned gentlemen says it is an object of great importance to create a Two-ansi-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but that an object of still greater importance is not to increase the capital of the debt. He admitted that it was desirable to create the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock; his main objection was the increase of the debt. I am not so sanguine as to hope, by any wholesale and permanent reduction in the value of money, to reduce the debt ; but I would readily go this length—that it is most desirable we should introduce into our financial system a stock- bearing a rate of interest which, in case the value of money should be subject to favourable alterations, would form a basis for extended operations. I beg the committee to perceive that they could not make sure of creating a Two-and-a Half per Cent. Stock by means of Exchequer bonds ; if we could have done so I never would have troubled yenwith a Two:and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but would have been perfectly satisfied. But the learned gentleman must remember that the question of all was whether. the bonds should, or should not, be at the expira tion of forty-one years redeemable at the option of the holder. If you could get out the bonds irredeemable, then the experiment would have substantially and com pletely succeeded. Then you would have a substantial basis for the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. You would then have standing ground from which to work more extended operations. But it is impossible for any man to say at this moment whether we can do that or not, and I would not advise you to give up the chance of doing it. What I recommend is, do not trust to that chance. This is the reason why Government proposed this Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, and not at all because they highly estimated the increased nominal capital of the debt. And to this question, the increase of the capital debt, I will now address myself. It has been always a matter of regret to me that the house has shown apparently an almost complete indifference on the subject of increasing the capital of the debt; but I propose to it at present a moderate increase of the capital debt, and ask the house to give the Government power to increase the capital to a very limited extent. This, though, is not because I think it an indifferent ma tt er, but because I and my colleagues thought the price worth paying f or th e attainment of a great object of p u bli c policy. Our proposal will not merely bring about a reduction of the rate of charges, but an object of publi c policy will be g a i ne d b y the establishment of such stock. Let us see, then, wh e th er th e House of Commons is prepared t o lay down the principle that under no circumstances will it consent to increase the capital of the debt. Will the House of Commons bind itself to borrow always at the current rate of interest, and under no circumstances increase the capital of the debt ? If the House of Commons be ready to adopt that principle and to adhere to it with firmness, I Must confess I think; not withstanding the temporary inconvenience, the house would have adopeed a very wise and patriotic determina tion, and I should be most unwilling to make any proposal which would stand in the way of such a resolution. lay honourable and learned friend has said there is a great con stitutional principle involved in our not increasing the capital of the debt ; that it is a great constitutional prin ciple not to increase the capital of the debt by borrow ing at a rate t f interest lower than the cum nt rate of interest. Where did the honourable and learned gentleman find this great constitutional principle? I must confess myself astonished at the facility with which honourable gentlemen on convenient occasions (it did not require the ingenuity of the honourable gentleman to do it) manufacture particul ar o pi n i ons, and declare their main tenance involved great constitutional principles. (Hear, hear, hear.) I think the question of increasing the capital of the national debt is one which involves the exercise of prudence and discretion, but to say it involves a great constitutional principle is, in my opinion, putting it on very novel and much too high grounds. What have you been doing for the last 20 years, and what has the hon. and learned gentleman been doing ? for during a portion of that time he has sat in the house, has heard questions in volving this great constitutional principle decided, and large financial operations performed, without once raising his voice against them, though they caused an increase in the capital of the debt. Here is a list of operations since the peace, in every one of which there was a systematic and habitual increase of the capital of the debt. In April, 1826, they funded 8,000,0001. of Ex chequer bills, four per cent., at 1001., adding 500,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1829 they funded 3,000,0001. of Exchequer bills, at 1011. 10s., addi ng 45,0001. to the ca pit a l o f th e d e bt. In August, 1839, they funded 4,990,000/. Exchequer bills, at 109/. andia fraction, and added 490,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1841, they funded 5,000,0001. Exchequer hills, adding 605,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1822-23 they converted no less than 150,000,0001. of Five per Cent. Stock, adding a capital to the debt of 7,500,090/. So late as 1847, in the presence of nearly every man now in the house, 8,000,0001. of money were borrowed, and 720 0001. was added to the capital of the debt. In 1818, 2,000,0001. of stock was created, adding 140,0001. more to the debt. So that, on the whole there has been within the last five years no less than 10,500,0001. added to the capital of the debt, and this addition, too, be it remembered, was not to secure a great object of policy, but simply with a view to the reduction of annual charges. For my own p ar t, no a lt ernative has been shown to me which would gain the object of establishing a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock except the creation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at a premium. Suppose, instead of my coming down to the house with the scheme I have developed, I had asked the house to authorise me to go into the m ar k e t and offer Two-and-a-H a lf p er C en t . Stock for what it would , fetch, it would in that case have been quite open to the house to object to a plan which would have had the effect of increasing the capital of the debt. Sir F. KELLY said—Not if there was a guarantee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—If I had asked the house to authorise me to go into the market and sell 1001. Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock for what it would bring, my opinion was that such a step would increase the capital of the debt a great deal more than would this pro position, for I should not be able to get 1001. for it, and must have sold it for its market value. The value in the market would not come so near 1001. as 1001. was near to 1101., so that that would increase it, not merely by ten cent., but by considerably more. In point of fact, we must take it either in meal or in malt. If you think it an object of policy to establish a Two-and-a-half per Cent. Stock you must be prepared to pay the price for it—an equivalent price. There is no way to create a Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock but that which I propose, namely, stating plainly, " We give you an amount of stock over and above 1001.—we give you a premium on the stock over and above 1001." Either we must do that, or else take the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock into the market and sell it for what it will bring—a plan which as I have already said, would, increase the nominal capital of the debt more than he proposed. This is the plan, and that the alternative. Proceeding on the assumption —an assumption borne out by those who are conversant in these matters—that Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock brought into the market would not sell for ten-eleventh parts of 1001., it is quite clear that if it sold for any less, it would add, in so far, to the capital of the debt. I k now b ut one way in which both these objects can be obtained, first, the creation of a Two-and a-Half per Cent. Stock ; and, secondly, the prevention of any increase in the capital of the debt. I might say that, inasmuch as South Sea and other minor stocks might be converted into Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stocks, if it were only the question of amount, I had no objection to reduce the whole sum of Two-and-a-Half per Cents. to 20,000,0001., instead of 30,000,0001. The main question, as I have stated, is whether the committee will, on any consideration, agree to the augmentation of thi s n om i na l cap i ta l of the dbt. In my opinion there is only one way to deal with it. We must elect between abandoning altogether the Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock, and the adoption of this mode of proceeding, to devote to the purpose of the reduction of the debt the annual saving made by the establishment of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. If the house chooses to determine that the annual saving shall be so devoted, it will be in its power entirely to prevent any increase, real or nominal, to the capital of the debt. Under the pro posed plan the Two-and-a-half per Cent. Stock_ will be dealt with in the market according to the dividend paid upon it, the holder of the stock will have nothing to do with its redemption, it will stand the re as T wo - an d- a -H a lf per Cent. Stock. You will provide that in respect of every 31. now payable by the Bank to the holders of Consols, that sum shall be commuted to 21. 15s. ; the other ss. will be payable to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and. these ss. will be applied to the pur chase and cancelling of stock, thus completely, but gradu ally extinguishing the nominal capital you now propose to add. Another plan has been proposed, namely, that instead of offering Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at once, we shall offer stock which for ten years shall be three per cent. ; for ten years more two-and-three-quarters, and for ten years more two-and-a-half ; but this operation extended over a period of thirty years will not attain the object I have in view in the establishment of a Two-and-a-half per Cent. Stock. If I adopt that plan I must surrender my policy. Now, if the house create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, at the rate of 1101. for every 1001. Consols, to an extent of 30,000,000/., and 5,000,0001. more of minor stocks are converted, that will give us a total of 35,000,0001. of Three per Cent Stock commuted to two-and-a-half. The addition to the capital of the debt as it stands on paper would be 3,500,000/. ; the saving in the annual charge would be 87,5001. ; the annual application of 87,5001. to the purchase of Consols throughout the whole period of forty-ono years, supposing you take one year with another, good and bad times, as they came, and Three per Cents. always at par, would cancel each year 87,5001. of Consols. The interest of the Consols so cancelled would be 2,6251. In the first year then you would save on the new stock created 87,5001; you would buy Consols with it, and the cancelling of th e Consols would effect a saving of 2,6251. The same amount would be saved the next year and the next, the succession rising gradually by 41 equal steps to the full annual saving of 87,5001., which it will be seen amounts to 3,587,0001 ., the sum wanted. In other words, stock to th e amount of 3,587,5001. would be cancelled. By this plan, though the saving at first will be iusignificaut, yet it would grow rapidly with the amount of stock cancelled, until it reached the full amount ; and at the end of the term there will not be a farthing of nominal capital added to the debt. In this way you will get the Two-and-a -Half per Cent. Stock out in the market, and by making a comparatively -slight and judicious sacrifice at present will prevent the least in crease of the capital of the debt, real or nominal. If a plan more free from objection can be suggested which will attain the object we have in view, I shall be happy to adopt it, it, but no such pl an h as b een suggested so far—no plan whch, together with th e end I propose to achieve, will accomplish the establishment of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. Thus, by making a sacrifice of the full bene fit of the annual saving, and postponing it for this purpose you will prevent the slightest increase at the expiration of the prescribed period to the nominal capital of the debt. If any plan could be suggested which would carry out the policy wehavo in view in a manner more entirely free from exception than this, I should be most happy : but no such plan has been suggested. All the plans which have been suggested to me aro liable to one fatal objection or other. Either they are plans which nobody could act upon, or they are plans which would not secure the creation of the Two and-a-Half per Cent. Stock which I aim at, orplans that would postpone the creation of that stock. If the committee con cur with me in thinking that it is important to create a Two and-a- Half per Cent. Stock, I venture respectfully to submit this mode of proceeding, by which you will ensure the crea tion of that stock. You will by that mode ensure its creation immediately. The operation of the reductions you provide for will not complicate that stock, but will be entirely _a separate matter. Your substantial objects will all be gained if the enjoyment of the annual saving shall be postponed. But the policy will be established, and the capital of the debt will not be increased by one farthing. (Hear, hear.) That is a plan which I hope will remove the objections of the hon. and learned gentleman. If there is any further give, and if I have not succeeded explanation which I car s tter I shall be happy to do the Ina In explaining fully, shouldact t'n, My desire is, that the committee the matter with its eyes open. I can only say that it will be a great satisfaction to me — not a reluctant concession wrung from me —but it will be a great satisfaction to me if the H ouse of Commons is prepared for the future to lay down the principle that it will not consent to any augmentation of the public debt. (Hear, hear.) No one will adopt that principle with greater eagerness than myself. You will never find on my part a disposition to flinch from it. And I now give a test of my sincerity, by tendering a plan which, although its first effect will be to put on paper, cer tainly, a nominal increase of the debt, will entirely remove that increase at the expiration of the period already men. tioned. (Cheers.) Mr. T. BARING did not consider that the circumstances of the country justified the present scheme of the Chan seller of the Exchequer. Unless there was a strong ground for the increase of the debt, it ought not to be permitted. The right hon. gentleman had referred to several instances of an increase taking place in the debt, but the periods when those operations took place were not analagous to the present. The country was not now in such distress that it need be relieved from a portion of its annual bur dens at the expense of th ose w h o were to come after for ; the hon. gentlemen opp os it e were in the habitof telling the house that the country was never in such a state of ' prosperity. (Hear, hear.) The right hon eman said he was ready to appl y th e saving of interes ' t gentl to the purpose of a sinking fund, but if he did, he would find that as soon as a moment of distress arrived, the sinking fund would be put aside, while the increased debt would rest on the public. (Hear, hear.) But in calculating this application of the saved interest the right hon. gentle man had forgotten that in his budget he had already reckoned upon 10 0,000/. a-year from the effect of his ope rations on the debt. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen tleman's scheme seemed to be a combination of different plans; it was like an ingenious puzzle, and what with them and with other plans which had been suggested to the right, hon. gentleman, the committee would hardly know what they were going to divide upon. With respect to the third alternative of transferable bonds,'he,had not the slightest objection to that proposition ; but, if the right hon. gentleman left the option of a 2:4 per cent. stock, he certainly would not get so much from the bonds as he anti cipated. Tho right hon. gentleman's calculation that 1101. of ono stock was only worth 911. 135., and that 821. 10s. of another stock was worth 961. 55., it puzzled him very much to comprehend. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman had calculated that the bonds would bear an extraordinary value on account of their being transferable without any formality from hand to hand ; but the hon. member for Suffolk had shown that a similar security existed in France and Holland, and bore not more than the same value of the inscribed stock. He did not believe that a man would _ _ be able to borrow more easily on tiiese v bOlds . than on the Three per Cents. ; and as to the difficulty of transferring stock for temporary loans, everybody knew that that was a matter of no importance. He regarded the right hon. gentleman's plan as rather too complicated and too con fused; but the great objection to it was, that it necessarily involved an i ncrease o f th e na ti ona l debt, and he should be sorry to see the British Parliament declare to the world thrit, in a time of prosperity, it was disposed, under the pres Sure of no emergency, and for the purpose of obtaining no very great result, to sanction a principle so objection able, and . he had almost said so disastrous, (Hear, hear.) Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer now succeeded in breaking down a considerable portion of the 500,000,000/. of 3 per Cents., he would be • the enabled at no v er y distant time t o e ff ec t a re d uc t ion o f te° remainder on something like the wise principle of the re duction effected in 1841. He thought, then, it was the interest of that•house and of the country to support the right hon. gentleman in his proposition to effect that grea! and important object. (Hear, hear.) He had expressed in strong terms his opposition to the principle of i nc reasing_ the nation a l d e bt, b u t if b y d o i ng that to the exten t o f 3,000,0001. they could, in the course of no distant tiine, effect the reduction of the debt, as he had no doubt thel, might, pe r h a p s b y th e sum of 400,000,000/., it would be immense advantage to the public. Taking the proposition of the right hon. gentleman as a whole, and so ultimately to reach the remainder of the debt, it was in his opinion the interest of the house to support it. Mr. LAING said, the question at issue appeared to hie' to be of the plainest description—whether it was or not desirable to create such an amount of 23 per cent. perma nent stock as would servo as a barometer to test the state of public credit. He trusted they would be prepared to pay the market price for effecting the commutation into that stock, b u t it appeared that the mode in which tee right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Excheque r proposed to e ff ec t it was the most economical that cou ld be adopted. He thought also the ss. over the 21. 158. in terest might well be devoted to the purpose of a sinking fund. The hon. gentleman the member for Huntingdon , and the hon. and learned member for East Suffolk, seemed to think that the 23 per cent, stock would be so desirable that none of the Exchequer bonds would be taken ; but be be:ieved the probability to be that they would command a premium. The time was favourable for laying the founda tion of a system for the reduction of the national debt, an ti of ultimately getting Ha of a great part of our national burdens. Captain LAFFAN said that, however desirable it migh t be, even on a small scale, to create the 23 per cent. stock, and lot it go into the market, yet it appeared to be co il pletely settled that the advantage was not to counterbal ance the greater disadvantage, in fact and in feeling, of adding to the nomi na l amoun t of the debt. But a state; ment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had surprise" him. The right hon. gentleman had stated that on the' question being submitt e d t o an actuary, as to the ac t ua l . value of the two propositions of 821. 10s. 3i per cot' , stock, redeemable 40 years hence, and of 1101. 24 Per, cent. stock, redeemable 40 years hence, he had given as the value of the latter 911. 13s. 4d., and of the former 961.5 8 .` &l. ; being 41. lls. Bd. i n f avour o f th e 34 per cent. stock' . He was at loss to know how the actuary had arrived et • that conclusion ; and it must be observed that the opinion of an actuary, like that of a member of the legal profession , must depend upon the case submitted to him ; b u t, on en deavouring to trace out th e p r i nc i p l e that had guided the actuary to the conclusion h e h a d men ti oned, he found t h S t the 911. 13s. 4d. was precisely the amount of Consols at rfl; that would give a p er p e t ua l annu it y of 21. 17s. 9d. w i respect to the Exchequer bonds, the power of selling them • was left undefined by the bill, but he should like to know whether they would be authorised to be sold below or above par. Mr. J. B. SMITH had no objection to the first proPe at i tion of the 33 per c en t. s t oc k, b u t he thought the Chance:. for of the Exch equer m i g ht h ave gone further in the; direction, and that the time had arrived when they , shoul"1 lay the foundation of a system ro • the extinction, if Peet, - ble, of the national debt. He believed the public were prepared, if necessary; to make a temporary sacrifice wi gain that important object. The Chancellor of the Exeh e '. quer had proposed that they should capitalise the cliff. stock and between the 21. 15 s . on th e new 23 per cent. sfo'7,. and the rate they at present p a id. H e th oug h t the rig"; hon. gentleman might have gone a little further and create' an amount of terminable annuities ; but that question Wa s so important th a t h e would suggest the propriety of ar pointing a committee to consider whether some schor o might not be proposed by which a liberal offer might made to the public creditor, alike advantageous to and to the nation. As to the Exchequer-bonds, by the 0 ,1 they were to be re d eema bl e at the end of 40 years, at t'iS option of the holder or o f th e G overnment. He bon rather make it imperative on the holder, leaving the optio n only with the Government. Mr. J. A. SMITH was one of those who for many Ye' ll had regretted that more had not been done for the redn e : tion of national debt, and that more attention had n;_" been paid to the subject of terminable annuities, and he cordially agreed with the hon. member for Stockport th,a, the people of this country would very cheerfully submit`: a temporary sacrifice, in order to have so great a benefit a: e some period bei ng fi xe d f or a large reduction of te national debt. As to the measure more immediately un der the consideration of the house, he regretted that the hen' member for H un ti ng d on in his very able speech had n ot alluded to th e p o i n t on which the whole matter of the 7° per cent. stock depended. It was known to the K i n ' member particularly h ow i mportant it was to begin creation of a 23 per cent, stock. It was of the u trnos importance, with a view to the future reduction of th e amount amount of annual ch arge , th at we should begin wit the creation of a2i per cent. stock. There might, a f no distant period, be a great reduction in the value money, and means should be provided to enable 14- ' Government of the country to t a k e th e a d van t age o f an y such change. Mr. HUME considered that it was a point of very Veit importance to bre a k i n t o th e cap i ta l d e b t by any 7,31. means, and he was sur e th e coun t ry wou ld su b m i t to , reasonable sacrifice to e ff ec t th a t o bj ec t . Th e nearer ar. proach we made to th e convers i on o f our debt into too' nable annuities the better. Mr. WILKINSON did not perceive the enormous ad vantage anticipated by so many h onoura bl e gen tlenl y from the creation of a 23 per cent, stock, and certati it was not an object justifyin g an y addition to the eaPt debt. Mr. J. B. SMITH asked if the Chancellor of the Exf ll6 ; quer had any objection to lay on the table the calculate e of the actuary which he had read to the house, with e i r question on which it w as f oun d e d ? H e cou ld no t M 0, thinking th a t it mus t h ave been founded on some mild tja ho The CHANCELLOR o f th e EXCHEQUER 0 ,, at' quoted the answer of the actuary in answer to 0 03- servations of the honourable gentleman opposite. fr , u . object was to show that there were elements in the el': l Wien which were not reducible to figures and ho that in what was reducible to figures, if the,premises w i e h i so and so then the results would be so and so. B ut 0 ° actuary did not undertake to calculate the risk o f retie% tion from one year to another, as that must depend up a f vestions of war or peace —upon the ease and prosperitY drer e the country, or the reverse. He had only to say, in ant.,"re to the honourable member for Montrose, that he was per" pared to bring up a clause which would give effect to " proposition he recommended. On the question being put from the chair, tien Mr. DISRAELI rose an d sa id —Sir, when this quo 00' came before us first i n th e s h ape o f a reso l ut i on, as it is , in the shape of a bill, th e genera l i mpression was t h a t he r ; Majesty's Government wer e a b ou t t o d eal w i th the great body of the public debt. (Hear, hear.) That was tr o general impression. The sum th a t was to come un d e r tu t immediate and contingent oper a ti on o f th e measure Ivowa be about 500 millions sterling, an d th ere can b e no doubt that when that impression first wen t a b roa d , it was veil, startling. The subject was one o f i mmense i n t er est-- - e' vast importance ; as, of course, the unlimited c onversi on of the national debt m us t b e cons i dered, if extensive and complete, of Aso character an d grea t ness which none - calculate—if even on a limited scale, it is still of consid e r " able importan ce . Th e popular idea on the subject is L ba „. in some h a pp y moment, the Minister mi g ht re d uce the ral of interest, if not altogether immediately, yet partia ll : 4 and ultimately t o th e i n t erest of 21 per cent, ; and r doubt the effects of that operation would be considera bo ' Lot the committee bear in mind what the effect would b e ' Instead of paying, as you do now, the sum of 15 million' sterling a-year, you would save 21 millions, and you vrn ui only pay 121 millions a-year, and of course the c ountry would anticipate from that operation the great and ben e &dal effects which would accrue from such a redueti eu . of the national burdens. Now let us see what will b e the saving gained by this proposition of the Go veril i went. The matter has beenslightly altered since I enter e to the house, but perhaps the committee will allow m e w read the sketch-1 made upon the question as it oriOnf",,,` g stood. The Government proposes to create thirty m 1 1 ,1 1%, of stock at 21 per cent., increasing the capital stect,„d 110 g., thirty millions more of Exchequer bonds a t par, tr t j • 440 millions more at 3i per cent reducing the capit a stock to 821. 10s. Upon the 500 m " illions, as matters 0 4 , 0 stand, you pay fifteen millions a year. If the plan .d ,"; Minister be completed—and I presume to impress upon " committee that in considering any financial proposition l v t must consider it as completed —we cannot test it wit licql o f assuming its completeness—then the thirty millions 1001. stock, at 2i per cent. interest, will involve an ann t ' pr charge of 866,0001.— t h e thirty millions of Exchalndi . bonds issu e d a t par, an d bearing 2 per c en t. i n t eres t, wig cost 825,0001.— w hil e th e 440 millions, bearing 3i per een";a and issued at 821,105., will cost 12,105,0001,.—altogether annual charge of 14,396,0001. If I deduct this from 1 1 1 fifteen millions we no w p a y, th ere w il l be an annual o'7l slightly exceeding 600,0001. If, then, the plan of the Gie o vernment be carried int o full effect, the result would 01. , that thi s amoun t o f annual charge would be guarantee d forty ye ars ; th a t f or all that time there could be no pas, Bible action on the debt, with the exception of a slight duction on the Exchequer bonds • that, with that exFi,r yt tion, for forty years there could 'be no greater reduat re than this 600,0001.' a year. Now, I beg tho house, Ida' n t they decide on this proposition, to follow me while 12 d0 before them, as briefly as I can, some notes I have 1 10 0 of preceding operations on the national debt, and Gant? . n g the amount saved to the country by preceding operatio ns with the project of the right hon. gentleman, In I believe, the first conversion of debt took pl a ce by f o b Robert Walpole. He dealt with di v id en d s to the at of 11 millions. The dividends th a t are now to b e deal with amount to fifteen milli ons . Th e sav i ng e ff ec ted Sir Robert Walpole on a divid en d o f 1A millions amonn,‘"s to 324,0001. a year, (Hea r , h ear. ) Th e sav i ng tha% g now proposed to be effected upon dividends amount to fifteen millions is now 600,0001. That is an importao consideration —one on which the committee will not & y i p it inexpedient to reflect ; and there was n o s p ec ifi c ation oo the act for any guarantee of the inter es t, which is t.eo , mosk important p o i n t i n a ll our calc ulations. If, t it h you contrast the project of the right hon. gentleman , 1 .• the plan of Sir Robert Walpole in 1727, it is clear thai• s , do not by the present plan effect an arrangement thi'a., nearly half so beneficial to the country. There was of ther reduction of debt from 5 to 4 per cent, in the n , “ . ", George 11. By it a saving of 340,000/, a-y ear was er to —more than half of the saving which is now propose d , oo . be effected—and in this caso also th ere was no gua rany be . I am anxious to impress this fact upon the committel c p. er cause the guarantee is here on e o f th e most impertan sloe ments in our calculation, N ow I w ill t a k e the con v, bf of debt which occurred in 1749, an d w hi c h was e ff ec tea et., Mr. Pelham. He reduced th e d e bt f rom 4to 3 Per e:.i.ot and the saving in that c ase was 565 , 00 0 / . ; nearly as sc,ro a saving as will be effe c t e d if th e w h ole of the present raid ject be carried into effect. I believe that Mr. Pelham be in this instance—l am speaking from memory-1 that lieve he did give a guaran t ee of seven years, but still was a very limited guarantee in comparison with th 4 0 0 rantee to which o ur a tt ent i on i s now called. In those conversions, then, th e t erms con t rast favourably w",' i s ter• to which our att en ti on i s ca l led by the present ginB22, We approach no w t o more modern times—to the year 4 per when Mr. Vansittart reduced the debt from 5 to e gal" cent. Let us see th e cap i tal with which he dealt, t•'-'__hich ing which he effected, and let us consider the saving is now proposed to be made. He had to deal 1 2',. ec ted debt of 150,000,000/. and the saving which he ° ol es amounted to I,2oo,oobl.—that is to say, double the. s t", which her M a j es ty' s Mi n i s t ers b y th e i r presen t pre.l.nra Thec• tend to save ; and the guaran t ee i n thi s case , though curred so recently as 1822, was only for seven year ' d e bt, committee will observe that in all th ese concessioilsu,o o t 01 from the first effected by Sir Rober Walpole to th e 1822, the terms were ext reme ly diff eren t a nd the iv li de ty were extremely different from those now under e'v