The Sun. — London, England, 1832-02-28 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. II 0 USE OF L ORD S, Frinc.utt 27. -: The LORD CUANCELLOR took his seat at Ten Minutes after Five o'clock. Viscount STRANGFORD presented a petition from Woodstock, against the importation of foreign gloves ; and a! the same time cave notice that, on the 6th March, he would move for a Select Committee to enquire into this branch of our commerce. . . . . Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition against the tithe system in Ireland. Lorh KENYON postponed the Committee on the Agricultural Labourers' Bill. In answer to a question by the Marquis of Sausntrav, The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he hoped the question of the poor laws would be so far settled that in few days he would be able to lay some information before the House. In that time, he hoped the arrangement with te•pect to the Commissioners would be settled. The Marquis of SALISBURY enquired whether there would be any objection to lay before the House the in structions given t., the Commissioners ? The LORD CHANCELLOR said the question was so very vague, that be could not possibly give an answer. When the Commissioners were appointed, and any instruc tions given to them, then would be the time to give an answer to the question. The Duke of WELLINGTON wished to ask the Noble Secretary for the Colonies whether the order in Council of the 22d of December, had been sent to the whole of the colonies; and, if not, why it had been unaittted to any of them? Lord GODERICH said the Noble Duke was in error, b cause the Order in Council had been sent to all the colonies. It WAS accompanied by a recommendation from him that proclamation should not be issued, except upon argent occasions. He had had a communication from Lord Belmore, who had not conceived there was any thing which would justify him in issuing the proclamation between the time of his receiving it and the time of the breaking out of the insurrection. _ _ _ The Duke of WELLINGTON enquired whether there would he any objection to the production of the despatch ? Lord GODERICH—So far as he was at present in formed, there would be no objection to lay it before the House. What hid subsequently transpired of course he would require time to consider of. The Earl of ABERDEEN was always sorry when he had occasion to take up their Lordships' time, hut the qtrestion he- had now to put was one of great magnitude, and be hoped the House would bear with him for a few moments. He wished to know from the Noble Earl (Grey) whether Government hod been informed as to the object of the French Go vernment, in sending out a large expedition to the coast of Italy, and whether it was undertaken with theirconsent? Earl GREY thought this proceeding was rather un usual—he did not remember that it had ever before happened that Government had been called upon to answer such questions. All he would at present say was, that Government had had notice from the French of their intention in respect to this expedition. The Earl of ABERDEEN was greatly astonished at the Noble Earl's reply.—( Hear, hear.) It was scarcely compatible with his (Earl Grey's) oft-repeated praises of France, and her sincerity, good faith, anti friendly feeling, that he should not be able to explain to their Lordships the objact of an expedition which was so extraordinary— (Ctieers)—an expedition of a nature which would de cidedly give rise to suspicion in every part of Europe. The Noble Earl's mode, toe, of stating the very scanty informa tion he hail received was not quite consistent with that very dose union with France of which he had so fre quently boasted, anti which he so recently solemnized in the presence of that august personage the Lord Mayor.— (Laughter and cheers.) At least, however, he had to con gratulate the House upon the termination of that ridiculous aystern of non-intervention. It was quite clear they should hear no more of it.—( Hear, hear.) No Government, not even the most despotic, the most tyrannical, or the most grasping and ambitious, and the most given to interven tion, could object to the Noble Earl's definition of non_ intervention.—(Hear, hear.) He said that intervention was not permitted, except when the security and tran quilii ty and great interests of a State were affected by a neigh bouring State. This was universally adopted. The difficulty was in its application. He presumed the Noble Earl did not mean to snake the French Government the judge of when the honour and interest of England required her to interfere.—(Hear, hear.) In fact, it came to this—every nation reserved to itself th.e right to interfere in the af fairs of its neighbours, when the system pursued by that neighbour, or the State in which it was placed, affected its own security or any of its great interests. Indeed, I' might be said of the Noble Lord's intervention, as Selden said of the equity of the Lord Chancellor, it was just the length of the foot of the Noble Earl.—(Hear, and laughter.) But to return to this expedition : it was so extraordinary, that n ere it not for the consequences with which it was sure to he attended, it would be ridiculous.—(Hear, hear.) A revolt took place in a part of the Papal dominions. The Austrians, feeling that this was fraught with danger to their own possessiom, and having been sent for by his Holiness, despatch a force into the country to restore tranquillity. This might be right or it might be wrong —politic or impolitic—necessary or unnecessary—but Austria was the sole judge of that, and if any expla nation was required, it should be demanded from Aus tria.—(Hear, bear, hear.) But France said nothing to Austria. To the Italians, however, she said, if Austria goes to protect you, we will go and protect you too.— (C:ieers and laughter.) Was it pretended that the Pipe had called for the French.—(Cheers.) No; and, more over, this force of theirs must be sent to some point where there was no disturbance—(Hear, hear)—where there was no disturbance, hut where, or he was much mistaken, after a few stay there would be a disturbance and revolt. —(Hoar, hear.) For what effect could the French force propose to itself except to protect revolt—(Hear)--and excite insurrection.—( Hear.) Such alone could be the effect of the first flutter of the tri-colour in the country against the known wish of the Government.—(Hear.) In France, this flag may be the symbol of peace, of plenty, and prosperity; but out of France, it hail ever been at tended by mi.ery, deso'ation, and war.--(Lotul dicers.) Again, it was to be considered, that as soon as this French force appeared, Sardinia and Austria must of course take measures to meet its interference. In short, it was an expedition worthy of the best days of the Republic, and be knew no parallel for it except the expedition to Egypt. In conclusion, he submitted to the House, that the sub ject was well worthy the" best attention of the Go vernment, and that they had a right to expect more ex plicit and extensive information. Earl GREY said the Noble Lord was not satisfied with having his questions answered, but again rose, not to ask other questions, but to force on a discussion upon a subject which he would find, when it came before the House, he was completely ignorant of. He would not allow leim self to be drawn into a debate upon the subject at the present inconvenient time. In answer to the taunts of the Noble Lord with respect to the close connection of this country with France, he would only say there never was a time when the bonds of connection between the two countries required to lie drag n so close in order to preserve the peace of Eu rope. He hop d that would be preserved, in spite of all the endeavours of Noble Lords opposite.—( Hear, bear.) He had never yet found a single case to justify a suspicion of the faith of the French Government. lie had still, and should continue to have, a wish for non intervention, hut when the safety of neighbouring States required it, when the peace of Europe was endangered --communications had been made to him by the French Government which had satisfied bins, and be, as a Minister of the Crown, could not at present iv snore. It was not long since an expedition of a greater amount, and one which was likely to lead to far greater results, had sailed apparently with the concurrence of the Noble Earl, and he (Earl Grey) did not recollect that any one had got up and questioned the Noble Earl upon the subject. The Government had taken the responsibility upon themselves, arid when the proper time came they would be ready to defend their conduct. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought that all the foreign Governments had a right to complain of the foreign policy of the present Administration, which was all for France, and careless of the rest of the world. His object, however, in rising, was to ask the Noble Earl if the ratifications of the Belaian Treaty by the Great Powers were likely to be exchanged--and if so, when they were likely to be exchanged ?—and, also, if the Noble Earl had rec, ived any information abeut the Belgian fortresses? Earl GREY as to the ratifications could not Nay any thing positive. He could only state, that this Government had a right to expect that the ratifications would be sent, and he had confident belief that they would be. TITHES, &c. &c. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM, after alluding to the state of Irel,nd, in consequence of the resistance to the p iyinent of tithes, and observing that discussions and delays in the Houses of parliament had made, and were only calculated to make, that state infinitely worse, asked the Noble Earl when he meant to bring forward his mea sure for the settlement of this question ? Earl GREY said that the measure was in an advanced state, but could riot be immedi4tety,l;rought fsorwatd. It should originate in the other - Huuse, and he could assure Noble Due it 'would be introduced with the least -~_ possible delay. He denied that the agitation of the tithe question had been made worse by the discussions in that 'House; and as to delay, it WU; no matter of reproach to the existinc; Ministry that they had net been able to settle in one year a question under consideration for many and many years, and which no Ministry had ever yet been able to bring to a satisfactory conclusion. He agreed with the Noble Duke as to the necessity of preserving the peace in Ireland ; for upon that the peace of the empire did in a great measure depend. But he trusted that the measure to be proposed would be found conducive to the peace of the country, and that it would preserve the interests of the Church, by placing them upon a satisfactory foundation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE remarked that the evi• dence before the Committee had not yet been distributed to the Members of the House of Commons, and therefore the Bill could not Lave peen introduced there. The Duke of WELLINGTON said; my Lords, I have not had an opportunity, or perhaps I should rather say I have avoided the opportunity, of saying one word on tithes since they have been lost discussed be`ore your Lordships. I had an objection to doing so until the Noble Earl should have brought forward his promised measure, which was to originate on the report of the Committee, established, they stated, upon the recommen dation of his Majesty. But when I heard that difficulties had for a long period existed, and that no measure was adopted to remove them by any preceding Cibinet, and I having belonged to preceding Cabinets, and having been in that very Cabinet to which the Noble Earl succeeded, I felt that I could not sit by and listen to what the Noble Earl has stated without giving a direct contradiction to it. —(Cheers.) My Lords, until the period when the Noble Earl took on himself the conduct of his Majesty's affairs, we bad never heard of tithes from the moment that the Tithe Composition Act was put in force. This Act, my Lords, was brought in by a Right Hon. Colleague and Friend of mine ; and I say that it did put an end to almost all disturbance upon the subject of tithes in Ireland. Two-thirds of the livings in that country were under the Tithe Composition Act. Well, then, my Lords, what is the cause of the present state of the tithe question? We have already considered—first, his Majesty's reference to the subject of his speech from the throne; and next, that this House is not to be called upon to adopt a measure upon the responsibility of Ministers; and now we find that we are to enter tain the question with a view to the formation of a new sys tem. My Lords, what is the cause of this ? My Lords, the cause is the encouragement given to agitators to dis turb the country.—(Loud cheers.) I can tell the Noble Earl, that so long as encouragement is given to agitators, you may double and treble the regular army in Ireland— you may heap measure of severity upon measure of seve rity—but you will not succeed in putting down agitation upon this question, or upon any of the others which may follow it. My Lords, we talk of a question of property. A Noble Lord, the other night, in discussing the question of tithes, observed, the people of Ireland are ready to pay that for which they receive value, to pay their rent, and to pay all the taxes on the land, and that they wished not to deprive any man of his property. I say, then, my Lords, is any property held so sacred by our law as tithes ? In the first place the King is sworn—his Majesty was sworn a few months ago to protect the property and rights of the clergy—(Cheers)—above all classes of men. (Cheers.) I desire also to hring to your Lordships' recol lection that in two recent Acts of Parliament, in which we conferred notable advantages on the Dissenters from the Church of England, we endeavoured, as far as we might by oaths, to secure the property of the Church. If any principle, indeed, can secure property to any portion of his Majesty's subjects, the property of the Church ought to be safe,—(Cheers.) It is a principle of the Constitution that tithes, above all other property, should be secured to the owner.—(Hear, hear.) In stating this thus strongly, I am well aware that difficulties do now surround this question in Ireland. And I was ready, and I am ready, to support any fair proposition of the Noble Earl, to pre vent disturbance, and not only to suppress it myself, but to use every influence I may be supposed to possess, to pre vent opposition to it.--(llear, hear.) But I cannot bear that we should be accused of having done nothing in this matter, when the fact is, that we did every thing in our power to pacify the country, and put an end to that ques tion celiich we are indirectly accused of bringing on by the Noble Earl.—(Loud cheers.) Earl GREY would be at all times most grateful to the Noble Duke for his support to any measure ; but he only hoped that the spirit in which it was given would be dif- ' ferent, and that it would be extended in a very different temper, because he did not think anything had fallen from him calculated to provoke the strong feeling displayed by the Noble Duke.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke said that he (Lord Grey) had brought an accusation against him as head of the lat.! Cabinet ; he had no such intention. The difficulties respecting the tithe question had been lung accumulating, and what he had said was, that no preceding Cabinet had found a mode of fringing them to a satisfactory conclusion. He did not mean to say that no attempt had been made ; and he had not con sidered it necessary to allude to the Tithe Composition Act. But before his administration came into office, it was felt that Act was not operating so beneficially as might have been expected. Much inconvenience had arisen from the want of the compulsory clause, and disturbance had in consequence occurred. He admitted that it bad become more general and systematic since November, 1830 ; but he repeated that the causes had been long accumu lating, and that the Administration had nothing to do with it. The Learned and Venerable Eai I (Eldon) might shake his head as much as be pleased, and endeavour to lay the weight upon the Government, but be (Lord Grey) felt they were guiltless of it. Refute the Noble Duke or himself were horn, the question of tithes had agitated the country, and at various periods occupied the attention and consideration of various Statesmen. The various Arts of Parliament on the subject showed how constantly the question had been discussed. As to their conduct in Ireland, he had only to say, that they had always interfered with the force of the country promptly and effectively when they saw that it was ad visable so to do ; but in some cases they had avoided the application of force, because they saw it would be useless. They found that it was necessary to look to a new state of things, and to a change of system, to pre serve that property on which the Noble Duke hail de claimed, and the rights of which he had never disputed. lie felt, that if a violation of the right of property were permitted in one instance, it would lead to more.—(Hear, hear.) On that principle was his conduct founded. The Noble Duke had said that he (Lord Grey) might double and treble the regular army, that be might heap measure of severity upon measure of severity, but that be would do it in vain, so long as the Government continued to encourage agitation.—(Cheers.) This was a serious charge—(Cheers)—directed against the Government of the country.—(Cheers.) It was in effect that by their mea:ures and conduct they were encouraging agitation against the public peace.—(Cheers.) He thought he had a right to call upon the Noble Duke for a specification.— (Chest's. ) In what instance had the Government encou raged agitation ?—(Hear, hear.) He contradicted the ac cusation of the Noble Duke as fitly as the Noble Duke had contradicted what had fallen from him.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke accused hint of encouraging agitation. Ile contradicted tile truth of that.—(Cheers.) He said there was no man in the country more anxious to put agitation down.—(Hear, hear.) He was at first anxious to give a fair trial to lenient measures, but when there was necessity for the application of force, the disturbers of the public peace would find that it was not less effectual be cause Government had previously proved a strong disposi tion to avoid its use.—(Cheers.) The Duke of WELLINGTON—I did not—l never did, and I never will, make a charge which I do not be lieve to be founded in fact.—(Cheers.) A year ago I re minded the Noble Lord that an Act which had passed through both Houses of Parliament was about to expire ; I asked him if lie intended to renew it. He said he did intend to renew it.—(Cheers.) Parliament, however, was dissolved ; the Act was not renewed, and it expired. The Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government thought it was as well it had been suffered to expire ; he declared that, upon consideration, he felt that he was able to govern the country under the existing laws. Well, my Lords, what was tie consequence ? Agitation began again ; there was meeting after meeting from the moment this Act ex pired up to the present day.—(Cheers.) This is not all ; the great agitator of all escaped the execution of the I OV in consequence of this Act having expired.—(Contint.ed cheering.) There was, perhaps, no reason why ; but let this pass. What happened afterwards ? This great agi tator, on whom certainly it might be at least expected that Government, if not inclined to countenance agitation, would not shower the favours of the Crown—this agitator received the greatest favour that any gentleman of the bar ever received ; and this at the hands of Government—at the hands, I may say, of the Noble Earl himself..._ (Cheers.) He received a patent of precedence, which plac. d him next to the Attorney-General, and placed him above a gentleman who had been Attorney-General himself.— (Cheers.) My Lords, if this is not hulling out encourage ment to agitation—or at least to that great agitator—l know not what can be considered as holding out encourage ment to any man, or, indeed, to any course of proceed ing.—(Cheers.) It is not only in this respect, or, in Ire la: only ; that I consider agitation was encouraged. Let as look to this country, and to what conclusion must we come? Thor Noble Duke then proceeded' to say there were thousan la of instances to show that the agitation in the ; country bad been encouraged by his Majesty's Government and their supporters. What else was the meaning of the friends of Government going to public meetings which had that object in view ? What else was the meaning of the letter written by the Noble Earl opposite in answer to the address of a Political Union ? What else was the meaning of two Hon. G.ntletnen—ene of them holding a place under his Majesty's Government, and the other a Member of the other House of Parliament, collecting mobs in the Regent's Park and elsewhere, on the morrow of that memorable evening on which their Lordships had rejected the Parliamentary Reform Bill? What else was the meaning of publishing the order for the lines of march which the various columns of the mob were to take dowu upon St. James's, in the Government newspapers? What could be inferred from all tn., but that Government was favourable to agitation ? He did not mean to sa y the Noble Earl opposite would be glad to see his (the Duke of Wellington's) or the house of any other Noble Lord de stroyed ; but what he meant to say was, that at least the negligence of that Noble Earl, and of his colleagues, was the cause of the very serious agitation and disturbance which had occurred. He (the Duke of Wellington) felt this subject strongly. He felt that the country was in a most dangerous state—he felt that his Majesty's Govern ment had not only taken no measures to stop the existing agitation, but that they had allowed a Lord of the House hold, and others of their supporters, to go about and at tend public meetings, to preach up agitation to the people. The Earl of ELDON on the first topic introduced would give no opinion until the various negociations and the public transactions in Europe respecting it bad been concluded, except that it appeared to him that those who had been the most strenuous opponents of interference hid now become its warmest allies. On what was at present going on in this country and Ireland, however, he begged to be allowed to make a few observations. lie would ask the Noble Lords from Ireland who were now present, whether the powers of the common law (which he had been told were as great in Ireland as in England) had ever been put in execution in that country in order to prevent it from falling into its present miserable state ; and whether they did not conscientiously believe that to the non-execution of those powers that state was attributable; Let their Lordships look at what had been passing in Ire land- fie begged to know how it was that such shameful proceedings as had taken place in Ireland had been allowed to go on without any prosecutions having been instituted on the subject? He would not presuire to say that they were so; but if the speeches in the Irish Papers were really the speeches of the persons to whom a Noble Duke had alluded, and of Mr. O'Connell, he had no hesitation in declaring that the Government of Ireland ought to be brought to the bar of that House, fur riot having applied the powers of the common law to punish those g!oss and shameful violations of the law. Things were in such a situation that the question was neither more nor lees than whether or not the Government of Ireland was to be allowed to exist?—(Hear, hear.) It was in truth much the same in this country. It was idle to believe that if the Reform Bill, as it had been offered to their Lordships last Session, had passed, their Lordships would have been long left sitting in that House. There was no man who had been more deeply obliged to the father of the late King—there was no man who had entertained a more devoted attachment to the late King—there was no man who entertained a firmer sense of allegiance to his present Majesty than himself; and he had felt it his duty distinctly to state, in the presence of a brother of his pre sent Majesty, that if that Reform Bill were to pass, the consequence of the agitation which the universal suffrage that it would create must produce, would he, that in the courseof ten years there would not be a single member of the House of Hanover on the throne.—(Hear, bear, hear.) He would now say a few words on the subject of tithes in Ireland. As to the advantage of the proposed commuta tion he would reserve himself until he saw the Bill upon the subject before their Lordships. But let it be consi dered how the subject had been introduced to their notice. It had been introduced by tirades of all kinds against the clergy of Ireland. Those attacks had been accompanied by similar attacks on the lay itnpropriators. In the vari ous petitions which had been presented to their Lordships, it had been (federal that all property of that description must be done away with. He was an old man, and he remembered forty years ago, in 1790, 1791, and 1792, when the people were convulsed in a manner similar to that in which they were convulsed at present, reading speeches containing the same sentiments, and uttered by some of the same individuals. He begged to ask the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, if there had been a single prosecution in Ireland founded on any of the speeches to which be alluded ? If Mr. O'Connell and others had mode such speeches as those which had been attributed to them, they ought to have been prosecuted. If they had not made those speeches, then the publications in which those supposed speeches were inserted ought to have been prose cuted. He did not believe that the Noble Earl supported all this agitation. On the contrary, he was persuaded that the Noble Earl was ashamed of its existence. But why had such violations of the law been allowed to go on so long, without any legal notice of them? lie repeated that if the Reform Bill were passed, their Lordships would riot long sit there ; and what was nearest his heart, if things continued to go on long as they were going on at present, the family which he hoped would long have re mained on the throne would cease to reign. That was his conscientious opinion. He was so satisfied of this fact that let the consequences be what they might, and let the ob'ervation subject him to whatever misconstruction it might, he would fearlessly say, that (as we understood the Noble and Learned Lord, who, however, as we have already observed, was at times scarcely audible) any of the Acts of James the Second were as excusable as would be the act of that Monarch who should give his sanction to such a measure.—(Hear, hear.) It would prove a measure the most destructive to the Constitution of England of any measure ever resorted to by any Government. This might he his last declaration in that House—it was a most conscientious one. There was another point on which he was desirous of making an observation or two. Ile alluded to the letter which had been written by a Spiritual Peer, in which that Right Rev. Prelate, speaking of those of their Lordships who had opposed the measures of his Majesty's Government, had denominated them " an igno rant faction ;" and in which that Right Rev. Prelate had expressed his hope that the King would do that which he (Lord Eldon) sincerely believed, if the King really did, he would destroy the Constitutiou of the country. He really could hardly believe that that letter was actually written by the Right Rev. Prelate. Whether or nut he did, however, he thought lie owed it to their Lordships, to the Constitution, and to the country, to declare that the state ment that the opposition to the late Reform Bill was fac tious, was an inexcusable libel. For himself, he haul been fifty years in Parliament, and he was not conscious of ever having been influenced by a factious or a personally inte rested motive. He had never solicited any advaucement in his profession but that which resulted from his own in dustry ; and he was sure that the great body of the people, who enjoyed so many blessings under the Constitution, would never attach the term "factious" to those whose most strenuous efforts had been directed to preserve that Constitution inviolate.—(Year.) The Bishop of CHICHESTER observed, that the re marks of the Noble and Learned Lord gave him an oppor tunity of explaining what, however, he should have thought did not require any explanation. The Noble and Learned Lord took a (Efferent view of the question of Par liamentary Reform from that taken by him (the Bishop of Chichester;. But be could not suppose that he intended to apply the term faction, or ignorance, to the Noble and Learned Lord. What he had stated in his letter was merely a general pteipoeition. lie had said that s h o uld th e Huuse of Lords reject the measure at present in progress with the alms precipitation as that with which they re jected the last, the Constitution provided a remedy for such a factious opposition.—(Hear, hear.) He did not pre sume to compete with the Noble and Learned Lord in a knowledge of the law and of the Constitution ; but he certainly conceived that when the opposition in that House arrived to a degree which rendered it inconvenient and impracticable to pass measures necessary for the State, there was a remedy in the hands of the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) In the same manner as when the House of Com mons showed itself determined to oppose the just views of any Government, the King had a right to put an end to its existence—so he conceived, when the opposition in that House at rived to a degree incompatible with the in tesest and prosperity of the country, the King had the means of correcting that evil.—(Hear, hear.) lie begged the Noble and Learned Lord to be assur d, and it the Noble and Learned Lord haul read the letter in question he would feel, that it was by no means his intention to use the terms ignorant or factious, except in laying down a ge neral proposition. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to say more, except to observe that he wrote the letter in a hurry--that it was with reluctance he con sented to publish it—and had only consented to do so upon earnest request. If he had intended it for the public view, he might have guarded it from the misrepresenta tion—he was sure, an unintentional one —of its contents, into which the Noble and Learned Lord had fallen. Lord Viscount MELBOURNE would not follow the ie department Noble and Learned Lord int o the questions of Reform and hod fallen f o rm t w be hi N ch ub it l e e Duke, which applied tithes. But some otaetrovattns '(Lord Melbourne) had the honour to preside, and which, therefore, he felt it to be impossible to peas over. In the first }.lace r the Noble Duke had charged his Majesty's Go ! verninent with having suffered the Proclamation Bill to expire, and with not having moved for its renewal. With respect to the effect of the Bill itself, while it was iu exist. ence, be would refer again, as he had formerly referred, to the opinion of the Noble and Learned Lord opposite, who had said that its effect was nothing, that it had no effect whatever, and that it was deserving only of derision. But as to the expiration of the Bill, that was involved in the dissolution of Parliament. If the dissolution of Par liament was wrong, the expiratioa of the Proclamation Bill was unaccessaiy to that wrong. If the dissolution of Parliament was right, the expiration of the Proclamation Bill was involved in it. That the dissolution was not a measure of a very reprehensible kind, he must conclude ; for no motion of censure had been made against it; and if such had been its character, he knew the manliness of the Noble Duke's character too well not to be quite sure that he would have brought it under the consideration of the House. As to the non-renewal of the Proclamation Bill, he appealed to all Noble Lords who knew anything of the real condition of Ireland, whether that measure would in the slightest degree have ruet the evils of that condition. He defied the Noble Duke to show that the Proclamation Bill, even if effective at all, would have bad any applica tion to the present circumstances of Ireland. 'The next point to which the Noble Duke had adverted was the professional honours which had been bestowed by the Crown on Mr. O'Connell. For his part, he (Lord Melbourne) had al ways thought that it was a great injustice, and a great mis take, to withhold those honours from that gentleman at any period of time. If any lawyer on the bench in Ireland were asked if he was entitled to them, the answer would be in the affirmative. There was nothing in the course which Mr. O'Connell bad yet pursued (although he was very far indeed from intending to speak of that course with approbation) that, in his opinion, ought to have influenced Government to deny him the professional honours which he had received. They were given to him in consequence of his professional conduct, and merits, and station ; and not with any reference to his political career. Unless it could be shown that there was something in the moral character of any man which rendered it improper to confer such honours upon him, they ought not, in his (Lord Melbourne's) opi nion, to be withheld. The Noble Duke had then alluded to a letter written by one of his Noble colleagues ; but as the Noble Duke had not read the passage of which he com plained, he (Lord M.) was not prepared distinctly to answer the statement. If he understood the Noble Duke, his Noble Friend had termed the declarations cf his opponents as "the whisperings of a faction." Now was it likely that Noble Lords, whether in or out of office, would restrain them selves, when speaking of the opinions of those from whom they had just sustained a violeot political attack, to a de signation less strong than " the whisperings of a faction?" He bad heard the expression over and over again. It was the common—be begged pardon of their Lordships for using so vulgar an expre-sion—but it was the common slang of opposition. But then the Noble Duke stated, that there had been a public meeting in the Regent's Park, at which two Members of his Majesty's Government at tended.—(Nn, no ! Friends.) Friends ! How was it possible that his Majesty's Government could be responsible for the conduct of all its friends? He did not precisely recollect the circumstance to which the Noble Duke alluded. But the Noble Duke said, that the line of march which the people were to take was pointed out in the Government Papers. Did the Noble Duke mean the Gazette ? There was no other Government Paper. His Majesty's Government were very glad of all the support which their friends in the Press gave them, but they really could not be responsible for everything that appeared in the columns of the Papers which maintained their cause, or be expected to contradict every advertisement.—(A laugh.) The Duke of WELLINGTON explained. In speak ing of the persons who had attended the meeting in the Regent's Park, he had said that they were persons in the confidence of his Majesty's Government; one of them in office.—(Cries of " Name, name.") No, he would not name them. With respect to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman on whom honours had been conferred by his Majesty's Government, it seemed to he forgotten that that Gentleman had been prosecuted under an Act existing at the time of the prosecution—that lie had been convicted of several offences against the law—and that he was not sentenced to any punishment, merely because, in conse quence of the dissolution of Parliament, the Act under which he had been tried expired. The Noble Viscount had said that political differences ought not to stand in the way of professional honour. But in the case in question there were positive offences against the law, pronounced by a Jury to be such, and saved from punishment merely by accident. Earl GREY expressed his satisfaction that the Noble Duke, with the manliness which belonged to his character, had stated the ground of the heavy charge which he had brought against his Majesty's Government of having, if not taken an active part in producing the existing agita tion, at least of encouraging it; although the Noble Duke had afterwards seemed to consider that it was not so much encouragement as negligence. As to the facts alleged by ties Noble Duke in support of this charge, he (Earl Grey) might refer for an answer to them to what had fallen from his Noble Friend near him ; hut as there were some re marks personal to himself in the Noble Duke's statement, it was of some consequence to him to say a few words on his own account. First, then, as to the first of the Noble Duke's proofs of negligence—the expiration of the Proclamation Act—he (Earl Grey) perfectly remembered the answer which he had formerly given to the Noble Duke on the subject. It was intended to bring in a new Bill before the expiration of the Act ; and what pre vented it was the sudden and unexpected dissolution of Parliament. With that Parliament the Act expired; and according to the best legal opinions en the subject, the individual who had been prosecuted and convicted under the Act, could not be brought up for judgment. Why his Majesty's Government had not thought proper to pro pose the renewal of the Act, lie would shortly state. In the first place, the sort of agitation which had since prevailed in Ireland would in no degree be met by that Act. His Majesty's Government were in hopes, and in those hopes they had been supported by the Government of Ireland, that other and effective means might be devised for suppressing the existing agitation. In answer to the accusation that the common law had not been allowed to operate in any part of Ireland, he would refer to the county of Clare, to which a special commission had been sent, and where prosecu tions had been instituted, and many persons convicted, some of whom had paid the forfeit of their lives, and t , thers had been transported. The consequence of this had been, that in that part of Ireland tranquillity had been restored. But then, it seemed a strong proof was afforded of the disposition entertained by his Majesty's Govern ment to encourage agitation in Ireland, by the silk gown which had been given to Mr. O'Connell. This had been well answered by his Noble Friend. The Noble Duke, however, said that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had committed legal offences. But were there no precedents of honours conferred on individuals who had committed legal offences? Were there not the cases of Sir Richard Steele and Dean Swift ? The fact was that there was no legal conviction; but even if there had been, that would not of necessity exclude the individual from advantages to which he was entitled. But he had no hesitation in avowing distinctly and fairly (for he was not one of those who wished to affect mys tery in such matters), that lie had hoped Mr. O'Connell would have been brought to adopt a different line of con duct. He had been disposed to try the effect of concilia tion. He had hoped, that by conferring on the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the honours to which his station in his profession justly entitled him, a salutary result might have been obtained. He had no hesitation in saying that in that expectation lie bad been grievously disappointed.— (Hear, bear, hear.) Noble Lords might make wheat ad vantage they thought proper of this admission, but he did not repent the step be bad taken. The agitation was now placed on different grounds. He denied that his Majesty's Government had shown the slightest indisposition to resist those who wanted to destroy tithes in Ireland. Wherever exertion was practicable exertion had been made, and the military had been employesi in Ireland in enforcing obedi ence to the law to an extent to which there was not an exam ple. With respect to the letters which had been al tleurdieodostot,n l f e o e n c n odi m lel g a not he h av el y ie e v i e mr t g h e e o N n o l b et le te D rs u t k v e hi co eh ul t d ve b re e merely answers to thanks, and which were carelessly, and perhaps imprudently, expressed. As to the speeches made at e iu v they were made by friends over whose ' e s egs G n ove ' rnment had no controul. He did n u t klin'o)i‘til:titlisie•l'ite meetings, the Not Duke had been able to accomplish; but he (Lord Grey), whether in power or out of power, had never found it practicable to controul the imprudence of zealous advocates. If the Noble Duke possessed any such controul over them, lie was more fortunate; and if the Noble Duke read the papers which he called Govern ment papers, though they were most ably conducted, anti often contained information of the most valuable nature, h e would see that they were not always conducted in the men t m oosrt towards friendly spirit hi m (Earl G r e y l l s ; I‘lileajetesotyu'lsd Govern ment that they ought not to be called Government Papers, if by Go vernment papers were meant papers that were under the in fluence of the Government. This was the amount of the charges which the Noble Duke had produced, and this was the answer that he gave to them—he had given no en couragement whatever to this agitation : on the contrary, wherever agitation had appeared, resistance had been offered to it by the Government, and it had been put down.—( Hear.) He mast now make one or two obser vations upon what bad fallen from the Noble earl, wad though the Noble Duke might think that what he about to say was matter of accusation against the Noble Duke's Ao verntuent ha could assure them it was not meant so. It was said that the things which had been the subject of notice by their Lordships ought to be put down. He must observe, that these things had been in existence be fore they came into office. The Political Union at Bir mingham had been in existence since January, 1830 ; it had produced a great excitement, and no measure had been taken to put it down. The Trades' Union, too, had existed for a long time—a considerable degree of agitation had been produced by it—no measure had been taken to put it down ; on the contrary, all that they found in the office was a recommendation of the late Secretary of State that these Unions should be made the subject of the con sideration of the Government. Before they came into office, too, agitation had spread all round the country up to the gates of the metropolis, nay in the very city itself, in which riots took place, while fires were blazing in many parts of the country? yet no power of the Government was put forth to put an end to this state of things.—(Hear.) As soon as the present Government entered upon office, they did not lose an hour in sending down a Special Com mission, in emp'oying a military force, and in augmenting the army, with a view to suppress these disturbances; and they were suppressed.--(Hear.) Under these cir. cumstances, he was justified in saying that the accusation thus made was lightly and unsuccessfully made, when it was asserted that the power of the Government was not exerted for the maintenance of the public peace.—(lleac.) He must now refer once more to these riots in the metro polis, for the purpose of alluding to the circumstance mentioned by the Noble Duke, who complained that his residence had been attacked. The Noble Duke surely would give him credit for this—that notwithstanding any political differences that might exist between them, he felt the greatest regret that any individual, but especially that the Noble Duke, should have been made the subject of attack ; and he appealed to all his friends around him, who were by office connected with the Government, and to the Noble Commander-in-Chief who sat near him, whether the utmost care was not taken, in a military point of view, to protect evet y part of the town, but especially to protect the residence of the Noble Duke.—(l-lear.) But then it wag said, as another ground of accusation, that there had been no prosecutions for libel. In the first place there had been, where proofs sufficient could be got at. He had heard the Noble and Learned Lou! say, on a former occasion, that it was very easy for men to say, on reading a paragraph, that it was a libel, but that it was a very different thing when they came to the considera tion of the responsibility of the Attorney-General ; there was evidence to he procured—there were Juries whose opi nions must be taken. When the Noble and Learned Lord came to recollect these things, and consider these difficul ties, he would admit that it was not a question of a light matter, whether a Paper should be submitted to a prose cution or not, though what they read might appear at the time to be libellous ; and he must have leave to tell the Noble Earl that all the libellous matter was not on one side —(Cheers)—yet it would be exceedingly difficult in most cases to procure evidence that would ensure a conviction. Having said thus much, he should sit down, feeling that he was freed from the weight of the accusation that had been brought against him by the Noble Duke ; and he was sure that when what he had now said came to be considered, there was no reasonable man in the country who would say that he had been guilty of any act of encouragement of agitation, or that he had neglected the means of putting it down ; nor any that would not readily admit he had done all he could to put a stop to all agitation whatever. The Earl of RODEN was prepared to show to any man who understood the meaning of words, that the Go vernment had given protection, if not encouragement to agitation. If the simple question were put, who was the s g ,, r , e e a r t e b s e t _a t i a r t . o rin o,e Ireland? onn el l ft hwouldat wereno t h e universal thef,act, w n- a a a it not also a fact that the Government had raised him to the highest station in his profession ? The Noble Earl had told them that the object of the Government was, in offer ing him this station, to prevent him from pursuing that agitating course which he had before adopted. In fact it was a bribe to him.—(Hear.) He did not know Mr. O'Connell privately ; he knew him only as a public cha racter, and he must say that he considered that gentleman as a most mischievous man. But he must say, at the same time, that he more respected the hostility of Mr. O'Connell, which was open, fair, and undisguised, than he did the cold hollow friendship of those who professed themselves the friends of Protestantism in Ireland. He should not forget the conduct of Mr. O'Connell with respect to him self ; he thought both unmanly and unfair ; but he had forgiven it, though he could not forget it ; but he never could forgive Mr. O'Connell for being the greatest enemy of the Protestant interests in Ireland. Lord PLUNKETT as connected with the Irish Go vernment, and as an attack bad been made on that Go vernment, thought the House would excuse him fur wish ing to say a few words on this subject, and in defence of the conduct of the Government. He wished that the Noble Earl who had just sat down had presented the peti tion to which he had alluded, for it was involved in this irregular discussion, the only object of which was to hold out to the people of this country that the Government was opposed to the maintenance of the religion of the country. Whether the object they had in view was good or not he would leave them to say ; but certain he was, that whatever was done with respect to tithes, there was no such effectual encouragement given to agitators, the value of whose promises the people well appreciated, as the opinions of the sort he had just alluded to, put forth by persons of character and property, from whom, as these opinions came with great gravity and weight, they came, he must add, with great mischief. With respect to what had been said about Mr. O'Connell, he would assert most positively, that Mr. O'Connell could not be legally con. vieted of any offence; he could not be legally convicted by the verdict of a Jury. The state of his position with regard to the law was this ; he had been indicted under a certain Act of Parliament—he had suffered judg ment by default, and the Act on which he had been in dicted expired shortly afterwards. Now, if the Noble and Learned Lord opposite would produce any autho rities to show, that under such circumstances a con viction could legally exist, he should be ready to meet the Noble and Learned Earl on that question. He was himself ready to maintain the negative both on principle and on authority. If he were right in that opinion, that the judgment suffered by default under such circumstances was one that he was at liberty to arrest, surely they would not say that that punishment, which could not be visited on him in point of law, should be visited on hint in his professional character. He (Lord Plunkett) was responsible for having affixed the Great Seal to the patent of precedence to Mr. O'Connell. No That, o e n l rank n dh nextot vwaales:hvt :tebsorr:;etutiosiinieaain:Kziirl nesni:noet g‘dht:esibti man bad been more attacked for any act than he had been for that ; he rested his defence ou the same grounds as those who sat beside him. But he might also observe that that Act was totally unconnected with any question of politics, and the patent of precedence was given to Mr. (owmsa seen notrvl. above p r e ' Orti a (th s ,,oncorisooeGnt egnedene granted nleol tr.,ra,ee t i O'Connell only on account of his professional eminence.— The ordinary way of granting a patent of precedence in Ir oen A m enit t: a t nokhretn doneer Attorney and an l dfk ' t H ne e n ha tnu o ci n i his head. Whatever he might think of Mr. O'Connell in a political point of view, it was impossible to deny that in his profession no individual exhibited higher attainments, nor was any more worthy of the distinction he had re ceived. That being the case, the Government was bound to accord him the distinction. It was the object of a rational Government not to be vindictive, but just, and the gift of the patent of precedence was required by justice. He t w hich aEarl opposite L o e t g wr,tei had - it wt should have been happy if, by that mark of kindness, not hicompatib'e with their duty, Mr. O'Connell had been in tduiliecea, what to oh o abdet expect a t k a ke taken place. ehimselfhighest t h i i , s orn p h, r e, o u f r eis ob i bouiltet b e i E could n ,t spoken against agitators. They were to be condemned.— but if he (Lord Plunkett) was asked who was the agitator, lie should say, that it was the person who collected toge ther large mobs of igno ran t persons—who addressed them in a manner calculated to raise their jealousies, and revive their prejudicess—who addressed Engiisb people, and called upon them to form Protestant associations—telling them that he loved the Catholics as men, but that there was a set of people who wished to put down the Protestants and their religion. Such a person was the true agitator. Such a person, who thus collected these ignorant assem blies together and scattered among them ambiguous—no, not ambiguous, but unfounded assertions—such a person risked the making of Irish agitation not only formidable but desperate.—(Hear, hear.) To accomplish that fearful object in Ireland, all that was wanted was —not a war against the State—not a war against the tithes—but a war between the Protestants and Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Earl opposite had been prophe sying —he told them that he had begun prophesying forty years ago. lie (Lord Plunkett) sincerely hoped that the Noble and Learned Lord might live for forty years more to prophesy, and be sincerely hoped, too, that the Noble and Learned Earl's prophecies might be, at the end of th a t time, as visionary as they had bee n u p to this moment,_. (Hear, hear.) He should now say a word en the state ment that the law was not vin dicated . — (Hear, hear.) The Noble and Learned Ea rl bad said t hat the law was the same in England as in Ireland. He be:ieved that it was in the abstract, that, as far as the letter of the law went, the guilt of enterieg into a conspiracy to refine payment of tithes was in both countries the s une ; but it was a very different thing for the Chancellor to furnish the Attorney-General with the abstract principle of the law, and to tell him that such was the law, and for the Attorney-General to carry on a prosecution under it. In these prosecutions there were such things as witnesses, and Jurors, and the public, all of whom were to be consi dered ; but he would venture to say that in every instance in which an outrage had been committed, a prosecution had been instituted, had been successful, and the authority of the law bad been vindicated by the punishment of the offender. Although he was not the public prosecutor, lie was not insensible to the duties of the office. Ile had communicated with the law officers of the Crown in Ire land, and with the distinguished and very learnediperson who filled the office of Attorney-General ; and he would venture to assert that in no instance in which a prosecu tion could be successfully instituted had that prosecution been neglected. If the Noble and Learned Earl opposite would ask for the papers connected with this subject, lie would undertake to show from those papers that what he had stated was really the case. If the Noble and Learned Earl could, out of all the papers, select an instance to the contrary, he should adopt that Noble Lord's advice, or en deavour to satisfy him that he was wrong. The Earl of ELDON asserted, that if the information against Mr. O'Connell had been filed by an English Attor ney-General, it would have contained counts that would have rendered it impossible for him to escape. But put ting all that out of the question, there had been many speeches delivered of so libelous a nature, that if they had been prosecuted, conviction must have followed. He was convinced that Ireland had been brought into the state in which it was at present because the power of the common law had not been applied in time to remedy the evil. The Earl of RODEN defended the meetings at which he had been present, and accused the Noble and Learned Lord opposite of having unjustly called them, on a former occasion, senseless factions, Lord PLUNKETT denied that term, but said he had spoken of factious agitators, who, however, he had been obliged to admit bad some sense on their side, for they bad grievances to complain of, while the other side had none. - Lord RODEN asserted, that the meetings of the Pro testants bad been composed of all the men of respectabi lity, intelligence, and property in the country. The Earl of GOSFORD knew many Protestant gen tlemen of Ireland—sensible men, and men of wealth and rank, and of the highest respectability—who had not at tended at these meetings, and who dreaded the violence and extravagance of language there made use of. —(Hear, hear.) He protested, therefote, against the assertion of the Noble Earl, that these meetings were attended by all the wealth, knowledge, property, and respectability of the country. He declared that that was not the case, as would be shown, perhaps, on some future occasion; and if one tenth part of what was said at these meetings was cor rectly given to the public, be thought it was the duty of every Christian to passe before he joined them. Lord WICKLOW said the Noble and Learned Lord op posite had called these meetings factious—he had called both sides factions, but had condemned one as dangerous and the other as senseless and impotent. It was a matter of regret that be should thus convert himself into a par tisan. The Noble and Learned Lord saw he was attacked from all parts—in other words that he was censured by all parties. That that censure was a proof of abuse or of ma lice was an erroneous opinion ; but it was a proof that the Lord Chancellor ought not to he a political character. The late Chancellor, during all the political excitement in that country, was never the subject of attack or abuse, because he never mixed himself up with the troubles of Irish po litics. On the subject of the promotion of Mr. O'Connell, it was curious to observe how the Noble Viscount and the Noble Earl at the head of the Government contra dicted each other. The Noble Viscount said that the pro. motion was given solely on account of Mr. O'Connell's legal knowledge—the Noble Earl's representation made it appear that it was given to influence Mr. O'Connell's opi. nion. How could these statements be reconciled with each other ? As to the administration of the law in Ire land with a view to suppress agitation, he should mention two facts. He had been assured by a Magistrate that there was an Irish gentleman, a Member for the county, who addressed the people of his county to excite them to refuse the payment of tithes; the Magistrate sent some persons to verify this fact, and then reported it to the Government, together with another recommendation of the same gentle man, that if the distrainers of tithes came they should attack them with sticks. The answer of the Government to the communication was, that the information might themselves prosecute the person referred to. Another case was this :—There was an officer in his Majesty's service on half-pay who had placed himself at the head of a large body of people. That fact had been communicated to the Government, who took no notice of it. It the Noble Earl opposite doubted this, he would give his authority ; but he objected to do it in this public manner at such a critical time as this.—(Hear, hear, from the Treasury Bench.) He did not understand the meaning of that cheer froth Noble Lords opposite—they might be indifferent to the lives of people entrusted to their charge—(Order, order)-- he had perhaps spoken in stronger terms than he ought.-- (Hear, hear.) The evil at present was, that the present Government were not thought favourable to tithes. He had before mentioned a motion made in 1824 by a Mem ber of the present Government. He had been called on to produce proof. He had found it, and also another de bate on the same subject in the preceding year. The re solution he had referred to was in these terms—" That the Church property was set aside by the State for the maintainance of the State religion, and that it was in the power of Parliament to apply it in any mode that was best calculated for the support of that religion." When that reso lution was moved, the Noble and Learned Lord opposite bad given it the character of desperation and folly. In the follow ing year a motion was brought forward, declaring that " it was expedient to inquire whether the present charges of the Church of Ireland were not more than commensu rate with the duties fperformed, both in regard of the number of persons employed, and the emolument received by them." Among the names of the minority on that occasion, where those of Brougham, Ellis, Rice, and several others who now formed part of the Government. The efforts of these opponents of the Church did not, however, then create any alarm—they excited only the ridicule and scorn of the friends of the Establishment, ee they were met by the opposition of a vigorous Govern ment. It was, in his opinion, the duty of Government to say that they were determined to maintain the Esta blished Church of the country. This the present Govern ment had not done, and be blamed them for the omission. Oa the occasion to which he had referred, the Noble and Learned Lord opposite said he would not sail in the same vessel with the proposer of that motion and his friends ; and now he was in the same vessel with them, and now it became his duty to guide the rudder, if *udder there were any, so as to save the vessel from destruction. The E of GOSFORD explained. Earl GREY had never said that the object of giving the patent of precedence to Mr. O'Connell was to influence him in favour of the Government. He had only said, that giving it as he had done for professional eminence, he should have been glad if at the Fame time it had produced a conciliatory effect on Mr. O'Connell's mind. When the Noble Earl said that the Government ought to make de clarations with respect to the stability of the Church, he forgot the King's speech, which wag constitutionally to he considered as the speech of the Ministers, and in which that recommendation of the Noble Earl had been anti cipated. ar. ) The LORD CHANCELLOR apprehended, that if he began by stating that he not occupy th e i r Lord ships' attenti on l ong , th e y wou ld h ave a right, from their observation of the debate of to-night, to draw this con clusion, that he intended to speak at considerable length. __(Hear, and a laugh.) He could, however, assure them that he should only say a few words on what the Noble thatte Established ts E i t , a e l b r i l iih o o e t n d i n aChurch was former o 0 of t i ji Ireland had now, for the second ti me, b rought before the House. He had, lie could t ru l y say, with no personal dis respect to the Noble Earl, dismissed time matter once before mentioned, from hi s thoughts. He had en tirely forgotten the t erms of the 'motion when- the Noble l rg occasion,elaon;i the; described bu t s o her t i t as tear ing up by the root s , or pulling down (he forgot which) h was de scribed. asure He had told their Lordships so at the time; and he might appeal to them —nay, he might almost appeal to the Noble Earl—whether his assertion had not new been fully borne out. With the gentlemen with whom he had then been associated he had acted cordially. They might have been opposed to a vigorous Government.—the Noble Earl was plcased to say they were—but that they were the ridicule and scorn of that Government he, front a constant uniCorm knowledge of the campaigns in which—for the rights of the people of England, for the rights of the people of Ireland, for the advantages of the Constitution itself—they had been engaged, he begged most solemnly to deny.—(Cheers.) That they were ever ridiculed and scorned by any Ministry to which they were ever opposed he mos t humbly, denied.—(Year, ed.( Ir, ha t brit _ms e t a confidently, er.) all ine h presencead: however, w o ev f around him, lived to see an Opposition in another place, of which he should say nothing but this—that with the advantage of talents and of high names, they were pursuing a course of conduct most dangerous to the peace, prosperity, and sta bility of the Government, and of the settled institutions o f the country. Now they carried on political warlare a ll might see, and lie must say that, in all his observations of Parliamentary contests, he bad never beheld more rancour;