The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-15 00:00:00

,ission. that Hon. these moved ced to ' House he dif nd the ! . asury. mittee, public , y went had a rospec- t to be to see, t items ►ve ex- Right kequer) so far Zo one• e Gen— would ;hed to public Intel. them. rprised 1 upon could }e.fully tponed f which ;rfectly ►mittee day for ling he notion. e coun ly) for axed in kit the ter) in-. mbrace Friend. e EX brward le, was. e s. count atisfac— Right ave no amittee- counts,, uestion current: pe of a a, that but he ice, he I stated. ierefore was not DI eal to the loud of in that s in the• success, far our-' •ri,c if!ercnt origin. forinrt- t was iv. ,ixt tbc formed the plan of the Board of . Control. In introducing., the mea sure for its establishment to that House, he declared that it Was to be accompanied with no salaries, no offices, and no Patronage, at the same time that be himself volunteered to become the President of it, without salary. He kept his Word, and for nine years he continued to bold the situation without salary. But in 1793 the Bill fell into the hands of Lord Melville, and then was effected that change which had aver since existed from this romantic, gratuitousmanagement of the affairs of India. By the Act, which he then obtained to be passed, salaries were appended to the situations of three Commissioners, one of whom, Lord Melville, as President, took 2,0001. a-year to himself, and gave 1,5001. each to the Other two. Another change was shortly after made, by which that Noble Lord's Family received pensions to the amount of boor. a-vear from the same source. In 1811, however, the present Lord Melville became President of this Board, and it Was his opinion that his father had been too moderate in fix ing the amount of salaries, and he added 6,0001. to the sum for the support of the Board, making 50001. the salary for the President. Before he left the Board be received 20,00001. in hard money from the present Company, and this he thought was a pretty tolerable specimen of an establishment which was to be without salaries, without offices, and without pa tronage.—(Hear I .)—lii 1813 a new agreement was entered Into with the East India Company, only two years after the receding one, by which the total sum for the support of the 'loud, of Control was raised to 26,0001. In this new arrange thent,it was true, no further allowance was made to the Com- Missioners, but .a scale of superannuation was introduced, 'n favou r of the Secretary and some others attached to the Board. " . us, then, he had shewn how this Board had come, step by St ep, till it descended into the situation of a regular purchase f a family interest in that House.—(Hear, bear!)—He knew It would be said that the Board consisted of ten persons, and t hat was true; but then seven were outside passengers, the t hree inside places being reserved far the family.—(Laughter.) ''lt was a real domestic Board; and what, he asked, was to 'entitle the Managers of India affairs to have a Board to them 'etre! ? No interlopers, no intruders, a complete family _rtY, with nobody but themselves to do as they pleased. — a rty, question was, was it a Board or not ? Sup ill' any one were to wish to see this domestic Board at t ,„ °ll, -esettling the question of a Mahratta war, or discussing ?ale poiut of Indian olic for instance, could it be seen ? And what could be ia m o re instructive than to have an oppor taaity of observing the way in which they settled the knotty Point, of giving the casting vote!—(A laugh.)—lt was ru- - °loured that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Can t; lag) was to be sent to India. Now what would any one give r u l t ° see the instructions of this Board to this individual ? rugliter.)—He would not venture to express an opinion as what the booksellers would give for such a thing—for such trial article as these Commissioners telling the Right Hon. elate:nap how he was to conduct himself in his situation — W hat to say to such a Prince and such another.—(Laughter.) ' - fieknew the answer to all this would he, that there was „ t ; ° .Board; and he should he,much inclined to coincide in the danion of those who should so say. He would tell the 41 ouse why he felt so disposed. It happened that he bad hi „aeself been Secretary, once upon a time, to th is Board. — " l heers from the Ministerial benches.) —He did not know v aat to make of that shout of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite t he most state, that during the thirteen months he was ;here, there was no Board at all that he ever saw. And as I le was S ecre t ar y t o it, the House might be disposed to con. cur With him in opinion that it was more than probable he w ould have known of it; if such a thing bad existed.--(Hear, '4nd latighter.)--His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney) sat in room, himself in another, and the Gentlemen Commis. *loners in a third.—(Hear !)—He was not content, however, ,without his own means of observation over a period of Usk. "an 'months on this important point, so he asked a Orson in the office, whether in the memory of man such a thing r a a Board bad ever existed ? The Gentleman to whom be d addressed himself, of whom he could not say too much, either for his industry or Isis talents in his situation, an ;were(' him with great simplicity, that to the best of his k now edge there never had.—(Hear, hear! and a laugh!)—He Must also state, that during all the time lie was there, there Z,as not business e nou g h f or th e situation.—(Hear, from Mr. o urtenay.)—He was glad to see the Hon . , Gentleman exert himself ; for as he got a higher salary than he bad, he ought to do something more for it.—(A laugh.)—The object of the l totioa was, that the House should name a Committee to see If what he represented on this subject was true. The Noble olarquis opposite might appoint it if he liked—he might be' one °Mir Committee—The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.Can hing) - another, and any Grenville that pleased, and lie defied them to report otherwise than be had stated. If it turned out that he was right, then be should ask why were the persons composing this Board allowed to sit in that House? He really was shocked to make any reference to the Constitution, but so long as there were Statutes he might be permitted to refer to them. It was notorious that the Statute of the Sixth , of Anne declared that no one holding a place under Govern anent, except some specified, should after that sit in that liouse. But here were four Gentlemen in direct contradiction 'to that Statute. Though they were of no use at the Board, Perhaps, it was th oug ht th e y m ight be in the House. The I M.II George 11. (permitted every Secretary of State to have a * rat in the House, bat not to have more than one Under - „„ ceretary. He raised no question as to the utility of official ' Persons in the House, but he asked if there ever was such a l'iolat ion of common sense, and of the provisions of this Act, as to have four persons there to represent the India Board, When only one Secretary, and one Udder Secretary of State Were allowed. Fur the latter there might be sonic use; for the former none. There used to be formerly a regular expo sition of the affairs of the East India Company. It was not so L'c'w, and he believed, beyond moving a vote of thanks to the ,prquis Hastings, no motion had hen niade for sonic years. Wo would be too much, four were preposterous, and the fact of their being permitted to be there was a proof of the decay of all proper, interest about the Constitution. He knew that ;' ) ;!e obvious ans we r to his objections to the size of this esta ,;ltilinent might he, that the Company paid for it all.— that Company, he knew, dealt in tea; but be did not know !Atit. there was any thing in their charter about dealing i n , Members of Parliament.—(A laugh.)—The sum of 26,0001. 4 tti out in the purchase of Members of that House would make Pretty addition to the placemen already in it.—(Laughter.) But the right view to take of this was, not what the Hon. Members themselves cost, but what their votes cost the coon. 1'7% The Learned Doctor opposite (Dr. Phillinsore ) for its saaoe, Cost a great deal. He was not to he estimated at the cost of 26,0001. ; but as having cost the country the 1,500,0001. r ‘ aised by . the Salt Tax.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—He begged :'eir attention to this, and he pledged himself to skew them ; I :at he was indeed a must expensive article. This Doctor— ILatighter, and cries of " Order, order.")—well, then, this Darned Doctorthe Learned Civilian, it would be in the : !collecti on o f the House, strenuously opposed the repeal of . Salt Tax, when it was proposed a short time ago. And when they came to a division, it appeared that the Learned elector, and his party, making four, were the champions of t he S a lt T ax . H e wou ld no t go i n t o the question of whether 4 was dear or cheapito the company . ; it was sufficient that be flat) cost the nation I,soo,oool.—(Hear and laughter.)—lf he and his friends had been upon that side of the House, they would hare obtained the repeal by two. Here he could not t errain from quoting to the House language. which be thought of a prophetic nature, and which was the more entitled to " ao nsideratitin, as it was the language of the good old country al en of that House. It was uttered during the latter pat t of the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole, at the time when the Gentleman in question had been supporting a Mr. Sams, 14. his endeavours to pass a Place Bill to lessen the influence '°f the Crown in that House. He bad been nearly successful ,in this laud a ble endeavour; but the time came when Mr. S ams changed sides, and it was the dilemma of the Country 'G entlemen in missing his support that created the sentiments • 'th which he had alluded. The Place Bill upon this occasion Was again brought forward ; but instead of meeting its usual s upports Mr. Sams .opposed it. He was sure that the senti snents then expressed would appear interesting to the House, And meet the support of the new Board and the new Presi dent, when he mentioned that the name of thespeaktr was Sir w alkin Williams Wynn.—(Laughter, and loud cries of ,„" Rear 1" from Sir . W. Williams Wynn.)—He assured the 4 lort. Baronet •that no descendant of Sir W. Williams Wynn heed be ashamed of the sentiments lie was about to quote, for they did honour to the individual who avowed them. After referring to the fate of his motion in the previous Session, he 4441-- " But I know that Gentlemen often change their senti ments with their situation's ; and that their notions about the _„ e rown and the,peopli display a great variance, when deliver " at from plain Country Gentlemen, or as from the posses sors of an office in the state. Now if any of that kind should occur on the present occasion, it would no doubt tend to dis aPpoint the motion ; at the same time it would slim, that if Place had no other tendency, it went at least to bias the judg ment, and to make persons think that right, which before t herthought wrong." Now, if that was not the case with the Doctor, he would be content to admit that there was no thing prophetic its the language he bad quoted.—(A laugh. ) s-But this country Gentleman went on to anticipate, in the Most minute detail, what had since occurred to his own blood. For, said he, "It is too much to think that the judgment is not to be biassed by 5001. or 1,0001., and, aboiiall, by's,oool. a - year.”—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)—This was the. lan guage held eighty years ago by a country Gentleman. He was a County Member, and speaking on the same subject as that on which he (Mr. C.) was then addressing the House, with this difference, that he moved, fur a general reduction of placemen in the House of Commons, whilst his (Mr. C.'s) motion only called for inquiry into the utility of • two of them. Having done with the great men of the Board, he would descend to the worthy Secretary (Mr. Ceurtenay), who, , as he had nothing to do with the affairs of India, must at least possess great art to . be able to get his salary raised three different times 7001. more than it was before he held the si tuation. For his own part, be had. never asked for more, fur be thought , that no public servant was ever better paid, espe cially-considering how little he had to do. He now thought he had'made out an irresistible case for inquiry, and should conclude by-moving,—"That it be referred to a Select Com-. mitte to examine into the different duties annexed to the of. fice of the Commissioners for the Management of the Affairs of India, by whom the same are performed, and report their observations to the House thereupon." Mr. COURTENAY declared, that he was not induced thus early in the debate to offer himself to the attention of the House, in consequence of the personal allusions that had been made to himself. He would leave those who were the authors of the act with regard to him, so 'odious in the eyes of the Honourable Gentleman, to answer him on that point: He would only state,. - that; upon his honour, from what be knew of the duties of the office, and of the manner he had discharged them, and he regarded it as a moral crime to take a salary without doing ample duty for it—that he looked back with infinitely greater satisfaction• to the part he bad performed than the Honourable Gentleman by his own ac count could do.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—Froni.the moment he had seen the notice of the Honourable Gentleman relative to the Board of Contioul, be confessed lie had felt some anxiety as to the nature of it, and knowing the relationship he had formerly had with that Board, it did not occur' to him that the Honourable Gentleman meant to come down there, and with bead abased, and face suffused with blushes, confess with shame that he bad allowed himself to have held a sinecure. —(Hear, hear!)—He expected too that he would have included in his aspersions all those who had held places like himself in that Establishment. But although he did not hesitate to heap 'animadversions on the most respectable Noblemen, be could not help admiring the ingenuity with which he evaded the task of including the Right Honourable Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Tierney.) He had not dared to joke with him, well knowing that lie was a pretty severe band himself in that way. With regard to the mo tion of the Honourable Gentleman, he had to observe, that he called for an inquiry which should never he granted, but on a very strong case being made out. It. was to shew that no such case had been made out that he offered himself so early to the attention of the House, conceiving himself com petent from a ten years knowledge of the duties of the office to give the House information as to the important nature of them. The Hon. Gentleman had rightly stated, in saying that it was at the outset of this Institution attempted to perform the great and important duties of the Board without salary. But it was to be observed that, at that period, there was not one attached to it who had not a salary from some other source; and in 1792 the system of paying the Commissioners began. In describing the nature of the duties they had to perform, lie need not expatiate on the immense extent of the British possessions in India, which were entrusted to the care- of this Board; but he would observe, that the extent of their duties was not to be estimated by extent of territory; for the management of the affairs of that country was infinitely more intricate and multiplied than those of any other. Every single act of every Judge, and of other officers, to which no importance was attached in other countries, underwent the strictest scrutiny by this Board, and by other powers. First, it passed under the observation of the Supreme Council in India; next it underwent the examination of the India House ; and lastly the Act itself,—and the acts of these bodies were subjected to a minute, constant, systematic, vigilant, cons trout, which, - he was there to assert, was daily performed at the. Board of Controul.—(Hear, hear.)—He did not blame the Hon; Gentleman, because he did not perform part of a similar system in his time ; for the Board had taken many 'years to grow up to its present station of importance.—(Hear.) —He declared, before God, that if he were giving evidence on oath in a Court of Justice, be would say nothing else:— (Hear, hear.)—Considering the short time the Honourable Gentleman, belonged to the office, it could not' be charged upon him as blame, for it :required two or three years to become acquainted with the nature of the business.— He particularly pointed to the revenue and judicial de. partments, which were peculiar to this Board. Since 1807, a completely new organization of the Board had taken 'place. It had been divided into departments, correspond ing with the great divisions of the Indian Empire; and he was sure that not a paragraph came from India, or went to it, that did not undergo the most particular, and in some cases, enlightened scrutiny. As to the Judicial De partment for the collection of the Revenue, the whole merit of that important change was due to a clerk in the office—a Gentleman be believed of the name of Coniniings.—(Hear, hear !)—The effect of this change had been to bring upon the Board of Control a load of busisiess, and of most important, which was no more to be- compared to the small adineasure ' mentssf the Hon. Gentleman, (ban the affairs of the county of Rutland were to be compared to those of the whole British Empire. Without taking any merit to himself, he owned that since he had been connected with the office, be hail given his best attention to its duties; but he was utterly incapable of placing a clear view of the whole before the President. At the same time the President received the most efficient arid meritorious assistance from the junior Commissioners of the Board. The Noble Member for Rochester, for instance, had applied himself to the judicial and revenue department, and : had mastered the subject in a manner that did him high cre dit. With regard to himself, he had not the least objection to have his conduct examined. He devoted as much of his time to the Board as he was able; but still he must confess that he was not competent to lay all the mass of business be fore the President. If they had six Commissioners More, he would undertake to give them all as lunch business as would last them for a fortnight. The largest bundles of papers that came before that House were mere abridgments to what they bad to deal with at the Board of Control. And what did it signify, whether there were those regular meetings of the Board, which the Hon. Gentleman seemed - to think so neces. sary to the dispatch of business? When his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) was President, lie was rather averse from form; and although he (Mr. Courtenay) did not regularly take his seat at the bottom of the Board with his pen behind his ear, slid it follow that the business was less effectively done ? With regard to the discontinuance of opening an India Budget to that -House it had taken place from the great dislike the House s pewed towards it, since it al ways had the effect of clearing the benches. They had at this present moment most important business before the Board, arising out of the- Mahratta war, and iii six months he expected they would hare to send out to India most important dispatches relating to judicial questions, He hoped lie had shewn sufficient grounds to the House for re jecting the motion. He really did not expect that the Hon. Gentleman, fifteen years after quitting the situation in which lie acquired his ignorance, would have brought forward such' a motion as the present. Such as it was, for the reasons he had given, lie should meet it by a direct negative.—(Hear !) Mr. TIERNEY said, that lie felt himself called upon, as he thought every one was who had ever been connected with the Board of Control, to contribute all -the information in his power, bearing on the present motion before the House. At the outset, however, he mast beg to assure the Honourable Secretary (Mr. Canning), that he was as 'much taken by stirs. prise by the motion as he could be, having been kept entirely in the dark about it till within the last few hours. He also begged to join the Noble Secretary in declaring, that what he knew of that Board he would state with the strictest atten tion to truth, in every respect as though it was on oath.— Having thus prefaced, it became him to .state that it Was his full conviction that three Commissioners were not necessary to the management of the business oft. the Board -of Control, but that two would be sufficient. Ile declared upon his ho nour that this was his opinion.—(Hear, hear !)—gut in say , ing this he begged to be understood as not meaning to under_ rate, either in quantity or quality, the business of that Board. (Hear !)—Both labour and responsibility belonged to the post of President, and no man was fit for the place who should shrink from either. He knew of no one dispatch from India, nor of no one department of Indian government, that was not sifted to 'the bottom in this country, as well by the India House as by the Board'of Control; 'and be begged leave to say, that without the clerks attached to the Office, not one, two, three, nor four Commissioners, would be adequate to go through the business.—(Hear !)--,When the Hon. Secretary, however, talked of the size of the papers he had to examine, if he did not wish to lead the House into error, he should have stated that these papers went through a previous examina tion at the India House, conducted by most intelligent men. This very much lightened the labour of examining them by the Board of Control and the President; with reference to what had been said of the duties of President, he bad only to say, that he was sure that every thing that could admit of doubt was fairly laid under his own observation —(Hear !)—Si, that every chance of foul play on the part of the clerks, or others, was removed. But it was too much for the Hon. Secretary to say that it-required two or three years to understand the nature of the business, when the President and the whole of the Commissioners were turned tq the right-about all at the same time, and fresh ones put ip their place. For his own part, he was willing to admit that be never did undertake any office, the duties of which were more arduous than those of the President of the Board of Controul. He expressed his gratitude fur the able and willing assistance lie received from the two Commissioners at that time, but he must at the same time declare, on his honour, that be did not think three Com missioners were necessary. Two, he thought. would answer quite as well as three, always hearing in mind the great ad. vantage which that Board derived from the previous sifting of all the matters that came, before it by the India House. Now, there could be no question that one could be spared as far as the India House was concerned; but it appeared to him that something in the shape of an amendment on the present ,' motion to consolidate the offices of the Under Secretary of State ai . thn head of the Colonial' Departnient and the Board of Control would be extremely advisable. He thought such an arrangement would effect a great saving to the nation. Iti his opinion the affairs of India and the Colonies ought in propriety to be associated together. The new Colonies perhapt ought to belong to the department of Lord Ba thurst, many of them being so much connected -with foreign politics as to be more of. the nature of political than colo nial possessions. In this case another Under Secretary might be attached to the Board,and he should have no ob jection to the Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr, Wilmot) being transferred with his department. The savinrwhich such an arrangement would effect, according to his calculation, would be equal to 10,0001. In all this, however, he might be wrong; for, as he had stated, his information was derived from a pe riod long past. And it was for this reason that he should vote for his Hon. Friend's motion ; for inquity. He must again say that three Commissioners were not necessary; even . if they were all conversant with India business; but, as they were not, still less could they be necessary. He . begged, however, in saying this, to guard himself against being interpreted to undervalue the ecclesiastical attributes of the Learned Gen tleman (Dr. Phillitnore) opposite. With regard to the Board of Cuntroul itself, he would vindicate it so far as to say, that there was no one office in the whole department of Govern ment which demanded more laborious application, more study, and more responsibility.--(Hear.)—Whether there was more business at one time than at another he did not know. He . knew that when he belonged to it he was not one day absent, and that no man could do more than he did.—(Hear.)—He did his best, and what he bad to state to .the House as to what he had learned there, hearing on i'he present motion, was, that one of Commissioners ought to he spared, and that a saving might be effected of the nature he had described.— (Hear, hear.). . , . . - Mr. CA;sINING said, he must begin by stating that he rose to take part in this debate from necessity—a necessity similar to that under which the Right Honourable Gentleman op posite (Mr. Tierney) declared himself as acting at the outset of his speech. He must also-admit with him, that as far as he was able.to take a retrospect of the short time that Right Honourable Gentleman was in office, he knew of no instance where, ire so short a period, more had been done towards a faithful and efficient discharge of duty.—(Hear, hear!)—He was also willing to confess, that in many of the opinions and feelings of the Right Honourable Gentleman he entirely agreed ; and as to the points of difference - between them, be really did believe that the progress of time, the change of circumstances, and the increase of business, were sufficient to reconcile them. Before, however, he proceeded to state, as the Right Honourable Gentleman hail done, snore in deed in the shape of testimony than arg ument, the grounds of his objecti o n to th e mo ti on , h e , w o uld call the attention of the House to the precise nature of it. This Bias a.motion for a Reform. The attention of the House had been called to the comparative usefulness of the individual who was the Secretary, and to that of him who had been President, and it turned out, from the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, as well as from common notoriety, that formerly one of those persons was a most efficient, and the other a most inefficient, Officer.—(Hear, hear, bear !)—Such being the state of the case, if the Right Hon. Gentleman, the former President of the Board of Controul, had brought fore aid a motion to as certain the manner in which the business had been carried on, in order to see what part of the duty had beets satisfac torily performed, and where there had been a failure, and had concluded by moving for a Committee to inquire into the conduct of an idle Secretary of that Board.—(Hear, hear !) Had such been the character of the motion, he could have understood the motives which brought the subject before the House. But it seemed a little extraordinary, that the only data they bad to go upon was furnished by the statement, that the President bring a most effective officer, and that in dividual having honourably boasted that he bad received much assistance from his fellow CommiSsioners, it seemed, he must repeat, a little extraordinary that that idle Secretary should be the person who called for such an inquiry.—(Elear, hear )—This was a reform with a.veugeance.—(Hear ' hear.) —This was a picture, and no unfaithful pictur e , o f those principles or, =which reform was usually clamoured for. He believed, if they traced the principles of those who raised that clamour to their source, it would be found that—hal/ells ream confitentens—and that nine times out of ten, the evil ex isted only where the clamour was raised.—(Hear!)—lt was beyond his hopes that any Honourable Gentleman could be so blinded by Isis fancies, as to come forward with such a mo tion, under suck cireumstances; crying Me, me adsuen qui (non) feel"—l am the man who did nothing; and I now ne c e o , nt a i t t i l d ue w d h c o he we r r i e og d , i ) Lige i n c t a , il fa o i ri le y d o t u .o t f o ol d l call on you to inquire why those who were associated with e o i w ita u n ' er o e f x t a l t i l e 'p n i s e s:4 — ty they, by their diligence, should thus break in upon the prac tice which my conduct went to establish, and disturb by their activity the stillness of my stagnation--(Hear, bear, bear !) The Hon. Gentleman stated himself to have been well paid. He bad received 1,5001. per annum, yet all that lie had to do was to amuse himself with the newspapers. The President indeed was engaged in his proctralium, endeavouring to forM plans for the good government of India; but the Hors. Gen tleman told them I washed my hands of every thing of this sort; I did not occupy myself in any such a way. I had only' to repose myself in my ()tithe, and lei look froth the window, ' into 'the Park, to amuse myself with what might be passing there; - and now I come to revenge myself on those whose industry formed so strong a contrast to my inactivity, by calling on the House to hit - wire into the manner in which those ditties were performed whiCh were nut performed at all by me.— (Loud cries of, Hear, hear, hear !) Now, if the authority of any one bringing forward a motion were to pass for any thing in that House, it was a little too much that they should be called upon to go into an inquiry when no grounds were laid for it but the idleness of the party calling for it—l-when the metioo which he made went to in culpate no one but himself.—;'Hear, hear, hear!)—He did n o t wish to overstate the importance of that office which the H„ n . G en tl eman had attempted to run shown. But the Right Hon. Gentleman who, during the short period of his Presi (lefty, had applied himself so closely and diligently to the duties of this office, had stated them to be ditties of some im portance. He, however, hoped that that Right lion. Gen tleman would not be offended with him when he stated that the business, in point of extent, delicacy, and difficulty, com pared with what it was at that period, partly front circum stances connected with the removal of the Company's Charter, had much increased, The circumstances to which he- had alluded would of themselves, in a great degree, account for the onus now thrown upon the Board of Controul being much heavier 'than formerly. He could not speak from his own knowledge, but front the infor mation which lie had obtained •frogs others, he could state that if they compared the business of the India Company and of the India Boat d with what it had been in 1793, it would be found to have increased a hundred fold. This he stated with out fear of contradiction; and be could further 'state that, within the last five or six years, there bad been an increase of about 20 per cent. The- Hon. Gentleman who brought for ward this motion had not looked further hack than 1784, to the formation of a Council by Mr. Pitt to superintend the Government of India. Had he gone still farther back to the debates on Mr. Feces India Bill, it would lie found that no question was more frequently argued than the question whe ther the affairs of India ought to be placed under the care of a Secretary of State, or under that of a Board. Mr. Dundas had differed in sonic particulars from those with whom he usually acted, hut he substantially agreed with the other leading men of that day, that a Board would be preferable, not fur the Government - of India—that was a point upon which a difference of opinion existed—hot for the contsoul of those in whom the Government should be vested. tie (Mr. C.) was sure that a Secretary of State was not so fit to super intend the Government of India as a Board of Control. The Secretary of State was a responsible. officer, - performing that which the King might he pleased to command. The Presi dent of the Board of Control was the single officer who never received any suggestion from the -Throne. The duty of a Board of Control, unlike that of a Secretary of State, was not active. With the very trifling exception which he would presently notice, it to iginated nothing. Its dory was to exa mine dispatches prepared by the Court of Directors to go out to India. These were sent to the Board of Control for their revision, correction, or approhation. No dispatch .. could- be Sent from the Company to India without the signature of three Conimissioners being attached to it in approved. . Out of the vast number of dispatches forwarded by a Company whose concerns were so• extensive, many were undoubtedly forwarded as they were originally written, but some were sent back to the Court of Directors, and, where the objection was of importance, accompanied by letters stating the reasons for the alterations which they suggested. An individual who was idle might pass many letters which contained objection able passages, but no man who had any regard for his repu tation would suggest alterations which be was - not prepared to defend. The form which he had described was that for merly presci:'ied by law. But custom had introduced an other course, which, though it seemed to give additional trouble its the first instance, was calculated ultimately to save it. Previous to an important dispatch being made up at the India House, its substance was usually, by courtesy, communicated to the President of the Board of Controul, so that if there- was any fundamental oh jection to the principle on -which it was to lie ferined, this could at once be stated, and the Court of Directors might be advised that it would be better not to draw up their dip.. patch its such a shape. On this intimation being given, the plan of it was commonly altered. When the Directors were strong in their sipmion•of the propriety of the-course they had intended to pursue. the dispatch was draVen up accord ingly, and sent to the Beard of -Control to go through the r ' usual forms. It was then perhaps sent back with shah altera- and the assistance it received from the Government and .thei e Lions as were considered necessary. This would sometimes Privy Council. In the- early part of his Presidency when produce a remonstrance, to which a reply became necessary, war was raging in India, he dicinot scruple to apply to Lent and that frequently led to verbal communications. This was Sidmouth for aid, and from that Noble Viscount - he had reS a description of, business which could not be so conveniently ceived the most important assistance. Mr. Sullivan, a Cont. performed by a Secretary o f State a s by a B o ard of Control. missioner who had resigned, remained at the Board at his That it might be seen what was the weight of business (Mr. C.'s) desire, and this Gentleman's services were found • t b rown on the B o ard, h e h a d cause d an accou nt to be taken most useful. It was perhaps hardly regular to allude to it, but Of the number of dispatches which had passed through on a former night, in the debate on the motion respecting the • it airing the time of hi s p res id enc y. I n f ou r years Lords of the Admiralty, mention had been made of a certain and a half, or nearly five y ear s, h e found that the number unpaid Commissioner having gone to the Board of Controul;: of dispatches which had come before it amounted to 1800. where he was told that there was no Board at which he could Of these, foam , of c o urse w ere pa s s e d w ith no alteration, attend, but there was a room with a table covered with green or with alteration s o s li g ht te a t th e y were hardly worth en- cloth, in which he could read the newspapers. He would say teritog into a controversy about. But about oue.tenth that the attendance of the unpaid Commissioner at the Board of them had been thought to require such alterations as had would only h ave b een lik e l y to impede the business. He might led him to a detailed exposition of reasoning, and to a discu - s- be admitted to the newspapers or to the library, he did siou with the Directors , not certainly o f a h o stile character, no t mean to the -printed books which might be seen elsewh ere , b u t very l ong an d complicated. This frequently made it ne- but to the outlives of the office, and when he had gOne over these, he might not object to his takin g a p ar t i n th e curre n t- . cesary to have the answers received to other dispatches, their inclosures and various d ocu m en ts, w hi c h m i g ht throw light business of the establishment.. But the attendance .of an - un—. upon the subj e ct. The p a p ers re f - crie d t o on the table gave paid Commissioner was not-wanted, nor did he think that int- . oo idea of the magnitude of the business. When be stated portant business could long be carried on in any country -by that one Military Dispatch contained 199 papers, and U np a id servan t s o f - t h e pu bli c. Th ese Commissioners were 13,507 paves—that a Political Di s patch had to-might 1,937 t reate d w i t h ress i cet--t h ey were allowed the privileges which:. pages, :id another on the Revenues and Judicial pro he had mentioned ; and after this, for there to complain that - cee di ngs o f th e m o s t com pli ca t e d nature contained 2538, more atttent i on was not shown towards them, and that they some notion might be formed of the business of the were not as k e d . to ass i st with their Council was about as Board, when such a volunrin'ous mass was to be gone reasonable as it was in the. Lady in Blue Beard, w:!0 being.. through with, before a dispatch could be sent. This was allowed to amuse herself with the curiosities in ninety-nine the sinecure, tbis,was the office, the duties of. which might apartments, ; was miserable because she was not permitted to so conr e in un tly lie added to those Of the Secretary ut State tater the'hundredthe He proceeded to show if they had been actually admitted, how drie uninteresting, anduseless the labours : o li f e tl t i h e e ll h o s a v r e d nt ln o i n ist to ha si v se e sv ap h p o e w ar t e h d e to hu th si e n u es n s pa h i a d d C i o n m a m eas is ed sio s n i e n r e s e . for the Heinle Department, or connected with the affiirs of the other Colonies. He did not believe that the physical the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite held the situation of Pre strength of any Secretary would suffice to get through busi ness like that of which he spoke; and to prove his idea cur sident of the Beard of Control. Light as the Ecclesiastical'• rect, be would state the means by which it was disposed of at department had been made of in that House s the business cone I n in f a c , ttienpddawitali.itahmiletvhwht When was not ad n i o t t - s a nw u unimportant.. s ir tsi po oa ind r ed ta u n it t aw . t • t. I .nr t oe l i v l i al o t s b e remembered Present. In the first place, much credit was due to the set.. rants of the East India Company. '1 he papers received from Legislative es ta b l measures.. s h e a l n s u e n r e t s a • t them were drawn up with a degree of accuracy and talent that would do credit to any Cioverninciet. This greatly fir fobioriginatedowjarodnror li ce nsin g h talasr nased dsit:wwai Gentleman Boardolde:httandiedffimcaini lattendedtythat.Marriages. o T f hi hteCetlolhNnaArdtoerewuotbugrbllte basin e nhee e sft w e Hr ris o n r hoe t remindl dauo d dsn teoe, grownwwv iasiti hict hol t . 1: ' l ui c tit cilitated the business. But the dispie4.hes, numerous as they were, it sas necessary to pass witl, their voluminous appendages before the. President of the Ivan, of Controul, or one of the Commissioners. Now, taking the dispatches to average 356 in the year, including some of those mon sters which he had mentioned, as it was necessary not of the conditions on which the last charter had been geanted.— that the President of the Board of Controul should read These had authorized individuals to go to India; but it was am all of them, but that he should look to all those re- quired that they should apply for a license to the Court of Di .specti lig which any doubt had been started,—was it too rectors, and where this was refused an-appeal might be made to much that be should bare two Gentlemen to assist him, the Board of Control. And here he felt himself bound in justice On whose understanding he could rely; and who would to speak of the conduct of the Court of Directors. When the' share in some degree, though not in a political sense, the re- provision which he had alluded to was made, it was opposed owe spensibility of the office. It was necessary that he should the ground that the Directors would be lik e ly t o use it t o o tyran have such assistance to receive the.dispatches from the clerks, nically. The applications which had been made for licenceS to and -such assistance lie had from his Hon. Friends near (situ, go to India since the renewal of the charter were between 4 and s th so i o r . d. O A f t s h a es t e est th o e f th Co e u g rt en o e f rai D p ir r e o c p to ti r e s ty ha o d f t r h e ese fuse d d ec a i b s o to u h t s, ez nourable (lentleman had found a Noble Friend of his when ' who had proved as efficient to aid him as the Right Ho he filled the same situation. While he (Mr. Canning) was had to state that but a third of th a t thi r d w hi c h h a d b een re in office, lie had never passed a dispatch, on which he had y hee th n e co ß n oa firm rd ed of .mthG C pee o lanto:t h t tr hyleace o einchs u whec l anae , d an su d ez t e z- e t d h:r a ds ided of fused permission to go to India, had succeeded •in getting the • their refusals d e e reversed es ionsver s lint fine, availed himself of the weight of their under standings• He did not say that he had never signed a dis ieehtt House ceeodini ali b i Iseeoa Board dnf been the e y e on t hftecutßo satisfiedni e ll i a d b ofthat a i h n ra fitter y s t h Ro e t fi ci w gs j h b i t le t g tHe t . ..... 1 3 sub. n a i t . .. patch in confidence without reading it, but he had never signed one with which they were not acquainted, and ready damthai gtmilinclitu f illa ro oCi m hnoan. to advise hint on it if necessary. He contended that the present machinery was , fit for the discharge of the duties atc °de r confuted to the Board, and lie was satisfied that it was not Gentleman, that more strength, talent, and disposable time con extensive. He should he ungrateful not to acknowledge were required in regulating the affairs of the Company then the assistance he bad received from his Noble Friend near one man could be expected to supply -.. if they bore in mind ' him (Lord Binning) who had applied his mind to that most that the Right Hon. Gentleman had received valuable assist difficult study, the revenues of India. This he had done with .once from those who had be e n associated, still remembering a degree of ardour kindled perhaps by the meritorious example that such assistance had been still more necessary to him of Mr. Cummings, which had been crowned with success, and (Mr. Canning) from the great increase in the business—if had rendered services the most important. He also spoke in this impression had been made on them, there were but two the highest terms of the exertions of the Hon. Member fur , b rounds remaining on which a motion could - be supported Preston, who, if his wi sh could have been gratified, would which had for its object the disorganizing of the Board, the not now have been there, but would have been filling one of weakening of the establishment, and the diminution of the • the highest judicial offices in India. With respect to his Hon. numbers emi7.oyed. The one was, that ineimes like these, all Friend near him, if any blame attached to the increase of e tuat'could be saved ought to b e save d, an d put i nto t h e pockets his salary, he begged to take it to himself, and desired to of the country. In this case, however, any saving that might - answer for it at the Bar of that House or before a Commit be made wouldthe East I cf Co 'Th go to n la . mpany. e proor of tee, if it were thought right to ,app oint one on the pre- this was to .be found in what had taken place with respect to sent elution: When be (Mr. Canning) first went to the Board the situation of President to the Board. That had been vacant of Control, a circumstance not of his seeking, but the result for a year, but the expence ths saved had, with the knowledge of accident, he found him in the situation, which he might of Parliament, been saved lo a the East India Company. The truly say he filled so much to his own honour. He had not next ground was that it might be argued that savings, though • the honour to know that - reseeeteble individual at that time, not of importance in their amount were desirable, that while but as the reputed author of a pamphlet, in which be (74r.C.) some were suffering under great privations, others ought had been attacked, to which he had thought it right to offer a not to enjoy an invidious affluence. Be, however, had a dread reply ins that House. It would therefore easily be conceived, of countenancing such a principle. Though he admittted there that they did not approach each other with any feelings of ex- was a wide difference between the tenure of off i ce and the tenure' traordinary kindness; but the patient industry, unostentatious of property generally ; yet it was by such areuments that all activity, and other qualifications of, the Hon.Gentletuaii,niade property had been overturned. The outcry—" Here is one him -feel it to be his duty to revise his salary from a state rolling in affluence while another endures the greatest want," of depression to a level with offices, to which it was not infe tl twhich in distant is was la rior in importance. He had found the Fl e maeGentleman i mutated the crowd to commit all sorts of excesses. The idea the receipt of 18001, per annum. In augmentiteg his income, that the •should poor man he (Mr. Canning) had been guilty of no extravagan c e, for he . bad ,founded this step on a measure of-economy. The Chief " See no contiguous palace rear its head, • Cleric's situation f e ll v a can t, an d I re bad th o ught that offi To shame the meanness of his humble shed," ce . . • had led the multitude to overturn ancient houses and sirited might be dispensed with, and accordingly it was not filled up. them on to the confiscation of property. If Parliament should Tw o other offices, which Were nearly sinecures, he took urea- encourage them to diffuse more generally that misery sures for putting an end to, at the expiration of the interest in let 1• I could h not be wiiciredressed particular cases; those not vested, but then existing, in them. He had thence gain which acted such a part look well to the consequences which ed the means, as he thought, of strengthening the office, and compensatingthe services of the Hon. Gentl em an .--( Hear. ) l follow; must coupled until these another romantic project, the • —. n Principle of taxing pa rticular classes exclusively, might be p The representations made on this subject would seem to impute' his had been done twice in our history that the successive augmentations of the Hon. Gentleman's brought forward. - T salary had been obtained by successive acts of humiliation and —once in the case of the Jews, and once, lie was sorry to . No such thing. What had been done for him supplication. enlightened times—since the RevolutiOn—ih - say, in more ~.._ that of the Papists. 'Phis he disapproved. He was against had been done at once. Part only had yet been done of that ng the ho ers o o cesubject to any particular tax which Id f fli su jb . which the regulatioh had contemplated, but what remained to making be done would, if his wishes could have any influence, be ac_ was not levied on the rest of the community.—He then went on complished by his successor in office. He would read the to show that the present Board of Control was better for the discharge of the duties assigned than a President and order which had been made. The order set forth that "the President could be like those of the Board of Trade, arid Vice- Board, considering the great weight of business which fell on repeated his conviction that it was more suitable to •ti • - exis nor the Chief Secretary to the Commissioners, and the great length cumstances than the superintendance of a Secretary of State. of service of the individual who held that situation, thought it • . whole it his -He concluded by declaring that upon the sin found at their disposal the salary of the Chief Secretary by cure t conviction that this establishment was not one which Par -20e1., making his 'total income 2,0001." It further declared I on any sound principle, could be called upon to re. lamen , . that " the salary of the Chief Secretary for the time to come form—great security was enven, ath ttliose who formed it would • should commence at 1,8001. be augmented after five years always . 3 , ,. , do their duty, from the great talents engaged in the service to '2,0001., at the expiration .of seven years to 2,2001., service of the East India Company ; for, in the face of such a and at the end of ten years receive an addition of 3001. more. body of men, he knew of no earthly inducement that could ever making altogether an income of 2,5001." This was raising themake presidentor Commissioner as idle as the Secretar y . any office to the level of one of the Under Secretaries of State, who had brought forward the present motion.—(Loud and long with which, without any disparagement, its business might b e continued cheering.) ~,,, compared. It had been stated by the Hon. Gentleman, that i Mr. BUX'T'ON opposed the motion, as it came within his the Chief Secretary to the Commissioners was entitled to the knowledge that the B I h oard had rendered services of' great im. advantages of superannuation.. No such thing. This was Ptanceinstance, dispatch relative to the burning of In widows a the single office in the State for which no superannuation al- the Hindoo had been mac . •le to take a shape which, but lowance was provided. He would tell how this happened. In .• would I' for the interference,of the Board, it never lave received, 1817, a Bill was before the House relative to the provision to and which, sent out as originally written, would have been a dise be made for the remuneration of certain Officers. In that Bill grace to the country. the President of the Board of Control and the Chief Secre- Mr. C. W. WYNN thought the present motion had been tary were not included, as they were to be paid from a dif. brought forward merely as a peg to hang those remarks which ferent . quarter. Those who considered the temper of the pre- • had been made on him and those with whom he was connected. sent times, and the temper of those to which he had refer- The entrance of himself and friends to office had been said to red, would not feel much surprise that he should have felt have been brought about by the purchase of a family interest. reluctant to bring in a Bill to provide a retreat for the Pre- He would appeal to those who had witnessed his conduct in that sident of the Board of Control, with whose fate the Chief House, if such remarks were just, and on this subject he would Secretary was most unjustly involved. He had not thought not say another word. He briefly defended his conduct in voting that the charge for such a retreat ought to be thrown on the for the Salt Duty. For the allusions made to his ancestors, he East India Company, and for these reasons his Honourable would say, if a Welchman might speak of his pedigree, that he Friend had remained the only man of his class who was not so had the honour to be the descendant of individuals who had inde. provided • for. Under these circumstances the increase of pendently taken apart on both sides of that House.—(A laugh.)-- salary which he had received war not only what he had de. He did not know how he could vote on any questions if he served, but what he had a right to expect from his (Mr. Can- were to attempt to regulate his opinions by theirs. They voted ning's) hands. His Honourable Friend had been nearly ten on different sides, as he believed conscientiously, and he thought, years in office—he was now to be amerced of ten per cent. in he should best imitate them by exercising his own honest judge his income by the - arrangenient about to take effect with re- meat in every case, without reference to the particular line of spect to all salaries ; and he was, he believed, in hourly expec a conduct pursued by any . other individual. He had not taken tation of the birth of a tenth child.—(A laugh.)—lf then any office till he, found the opinions of those with whoM he was to man thought it was other than fair that, under such eircum- act in perfect accordance with his own on all the great interests stances, his Honourable Friend should receive the reward of the country. which had been given to him, he did not envy that man his Lord BINNING said, an - Hon. Gentleman had said he feelings, and would, willingly give him all the credit he could voted against the motion, as the Board of Control by its inter- .. gain for economy,- rather than share the sentiments of his heart, ference had prevented a dispatch from going out to India which -, - A cry was raised against the - numbers of the Board. He would have been a disgrace to the country. He remembered a: thought there would be something-unseemly is an arrangement dispatch on that subject whichhad been fully dealt with by the .:. which should subject the decisions of a body like the East India Board, but in justice to the East India Company he must Sey,e. Company to be altered and nullified by the desh of a single he had no recollection of any disp a tch nrhich merited so se pen. That a deliberative body should act on such occasions vete a censure as that which had been pronoUnced by the lion. . was due from courtesy to them, and essential to the prosperity Gentleman. . of the important interests confided 'to their care. Mr. Fox, Mr. BATHURST spoke to the same effect. who was no mean judge of what was necessary for the Govern- Dr. PHILLI.MORE vindicated his conduct with respect to ment of India, was not sparing of numbers. He had been in the Salt Duty. His speeches on a former occasion had been favour of seven Principal and nine Assistant Commissioners.— malevolently garbled out of doors, and he had been misrepre (Hear.)—O, but then it was said his seven Assistant Commis- sented. To these attacks he had deigned to make no reply, stoners were not paid,—" Not paid ! (exclaimed Mr. Canning,) but when the subject was brought forward in that House it why they held their offices for four years in-en - loveable by the .became necessary to offer sonm explanation, and he thought it Crown, and they enjoyed that of which I have not a_ jot—all the .right to Kay he had taken the office he held with a view of patronage. After. this I should like to hear it again stated that doing his duty, to the best of his limited ability. that they were not paid for their services, who enjoyed all the Mr. CREEVEY replied. They had a grand theatrical dis. patronage connected with the disbursement of sixteen millions play from a performer who it was rumoured then made his last of money for the Government of Inclia."—( Hear, hear, -. hear !)-- appearance on that stage for some time. They had been amused The council of Mr.'Pitt succeeded. That lasted for eight years three or four times by remarks on his - (Nile Creevey's) idleness. and the Board of 'Control was established by Act of Parliament And who was the performer who thus entertainedthem?—Why (this they had not learnt from the speech of the Hon. Gent.) as it it was the idle Ambassador to Lisbon. Did the Right lion. 'now existed. It was to consist of a President, who was the only Gentleman n e ve r h ea r of a n idle ambassador ?--(Hear IS--Why -- --. 'respolisible officer, and two salaried Commissioners, whose ser- not bring evidence to prove he (Mr. Creevey) was an idle Secre e vices- he might command and profit by if it were not his own tary. The Right Hon. Gentleman had no proof in Support of fault; for if they were to refuse to render such assistance as it that statement; but it was well known who was the idle Am might be in their power to 'afford when called upon, he would bassadm. The Right Hon. Gentleman was sent out to Lisbon, dismiss them with as little ceremony as he would a n idle loiter- wh ere th ere was no Co ur t, by th e Noble Lord. It was re ing newspaper reading Secretary.—aleao—He proceeded to remarkable that each a man, a tip-top wag, in the country should describe the Constitution of the Board, and explained the im- come down-to the House to jest about an idle Secretary. - He . portance of the several regulations by which it was governed, was described to be a winter-looking Secretary, but, the joke