The Sun. — London, England, 1822-06-15 00:00:00

membered with what an expression of love and enthusiasm he was received, and the feeling .in which his gracious visit ori ginated. But his Majesty had not left the country—his foot was still upon it, when the insurrection broke out in all direc tions. He had seen a letter from Limerick, written at the very height of these outrages, which stated that even there the head quarters of the insurgents, if his Majesty had made his appear ance, he would have been received with the same enthusiasm which his presence drew forth in Dublin. And let it be remem lend that in all the notices and bills which had been posted through: at the disturbances, they scarcely ever mentioned the telovernaient as an object of odium. This shewed that the late insurrection, as well as almost all others that preceded it, was • directed against property alone. With regard to the benefits which were said to be withheld from the people of Ireland, it was curious that if they looked to the operation of the prin.- . eiples of the Constitution in the kingdoms of England, Scat 'land, and Wales, it would be found that Scotland was the Flue where popular principles prevailed in the least degree; and that in Ireland they were the most numerous. Let them Nook first at the state of the representation, and it would appear that Scotland possessed very little of popular representation, while Ireland's representation was more popular than fiat of England. Nay, he would go farther. A. Noble Lord in the other House, whose character and connections were most re spectable, had lately brought forward a motion . for extending - the elective franchise in this country. He was glad that sued a motion bad been lost, but if it should have been carried, even then the representation of Ireland would have been more popu hr than that of England. Not only did the more popular principles of the Constitution enter into the government of Ire -land, but they were absolutely greater and more extended than a bold and speculative proposition of Reform would have given to this country. Again, with respect to the benefit of the law, Ireland was in possession-of a much greater proportion of our Constitutional Laws than Scotland. In fact, she enjoyed the full spirit of the Constitution. Did she not possess the trial by Jury ? Had she not independent Judges'? And if they might reason from the number of appeals which'came before them, it would be seen that Ireland did not `complain of the manner in which justice was administered; With this View of the question then, whether he looked to the state of • the country, or whether he looked at the feeling of the people, as he was bound to do in such a case, he came to the conclu- Nio7l that their disquiet did not arise from disloyalty—it did not arisofrom hostility to the British Constitution—it did not arise in that undefined desire for Reform which sometimes agitated the Minds of some bodies of men in this country, when suffer ing under temporary distress. The Noble Marquis had alluded to abuses in the systems of finance and revenue adopted to wards Ireland ; he only desired that their Lordships would look at what the Noble Lord had admitted with respect to the -fertility of the soil, and the solid and substantial wealth of that country, and then consider that England, with fourteen millions of population, paid fifty millions of taxes annually, - while Irelatal, with all its resources, paid Only four millions of *taxes. He would then ask them whether the burthens 'inflicted upon Ireland were excessive or intolerable. The .Noble Marquis had stated that the revenue in Ireland had 'diminished since the war. He was perfectly aware of that ; and' the cause was as obvious. , He knew that Ireland was one of the countries which suffered greatly from the reduc tion of the expenditure of the war. The cause of the decrease of revenue was, therefore, plain and simple. It arose from the :eduction of expenditure and the consequent reduction of demand for the war provisions and articles for which Ireland was the market that furnished the sup ply. When the Noble Marquis complained of the conduct of this country towards Ireland upon subjects of finance, 'did he recollect that England had taken the debt of ,that Country upon herself, and was now paying. the interest -of that 'debt•by her own means? This alone was a proof that every indidgent,•that every generous consideration had always been entertained by this country towards Ireland. 'As to the 'distillation laws, it was when they were repealed by a Noble _ _ _ _ Lord, •at that time Chief Secrefary for Ireland, the measure gave rise to such general inebriety amongst the poor, that the whole body of the Irish representatives in the House of Corn - mons desired that they might be renewed. He was, notwith standing, prepared to admit that this was a subject demanding strict attention. But as a commission had been appointed, • consisting of gentlemen who were particularly qualified to. investigate the question, they ought to wait for their report be fore any steps were taken upon this branch of the affairs of *freland. The next topic upon which the Noble. Marquis touch ed vhts that of the Magistracy, and he could not but feel that 'this involved the whole question of absentees ; a question which was undoubtedly one of the greatest difficulty as well as im portance. •He would not inquire whether, as a principle of po iitical economy, it was advantageous to a country that the value of its produce should be drained from it and spent in distant parts ;—he would not stop to examine that question, be .- cause 't4ere was another great and over-ruling consideration which pressed upon his mind, that of the moral effect produced hy such a course. It was well known what the force of ex ample would do; and if Gentlemen would not remain upon - their estates, and see the law enforced, it must follow that the Magistracy descended into other hands, where its character . and respectability were not so likely to be upheld.. lie was • quite mire that a reform of the Magistracy was now in progress, • and that if any violation of the duty of a Magistrate were corn ' rnanicated to the Lord Lieutenant, or if such a communication •had been made to his Noble Friend, the late Lord Lieutenant, •it would have received immediate attention. . In fact, the Be form of the Magistracy was at this moment especially under the attention and direction of the Lord_ High Chancellor of • Ireland. - The Noble Marquis had stated that partiality was exercised in the selection of Magistrates, to the , exclusion of Catholic Gentlemen. From all the information which it was in his power to collect, he did not believe• that this was the case ; and he was quite surf that if it had been so, any well-1 founded complaint to the Lord Lieutenant would at once re move the evil. Upon the subject of Grand Jury Present ments, he begged to remind their Lordships of what had been the state of Scotland previous to the rebellion of 1745, before tie appointment of heritable jurisdictions. It was worse than the present state of Ireland. And yet those measures proved - effectual to the accomplishment of their object. He would un .edertake to say, that in like manner the measures now in pro _ pis.; in another place, if properly aided by the Magistracy, eand the resident Nobility and. Gentry, would greatly alle viate the evils which had been so long complained of. He now came to the great question of the Tithes.. And before entering into it, he must set out upon the basis, that the right of tithe—he did not mean, he could assure the Noble Marquis, to say any thing about the divine right—but he must. set out opon the basis that the right of tithe was as sacred as the riYet by which any other description, of property was held. -The proprietors of land could only devise nine-tenths of it, and that alone had been devised to them. The remaining ;lentil part belonged as rightfully to the Church, or to the lay eimpropriator. He was perfectly satisfied of the power of Par liament to accommodate property without inflicting injury on the possessors; but they could not touch this species of pro perty, any more than that which came under any other descrip • thin. Of the resident Clergy in Ireland he would say that they were, generally speaking, the most useful to their country -of any body of men which it contained. He did not here speak of them as Clergymen only, but as being in a great mea sure land-proprietors, who lived upon their 'estates, and spent their income upon the spot from whence it was derived. The right of tithe, then, was in the first place a sacred right, and 2:11y, it was a right es well or perhaps better exercised than -it would be in the'hands of any other body of men whatever. He was one of those who thought tythes to be no evil ; and he con-, aidered the observations of the Noble Lord rather to bear upon _another question; it went to the unlimited subdivision of pro perty. In this country a clergyman possessing4ool. a year, would --perhaps have to collect it from 30 or 40 persons; in Ireland a Clergyman would have to collect the same sum from perhaps i 509 individuals, they being the very poorest of his parishion ers, and the necessary consequence was that he must be en . gaged in endless litigations, or not obtain his tythes at all. He would ask their - Lordships what was the natural remedy for this ? He would-say, let the prOperty pay the tythe ; let the proprietors lease the tythe to the farmer, and that would .rerrieve the evil. If there should be any obstructions to this plan, they would be thrown in the way by the prhprietors alone, and the evils complained of would rest with them alone. He knew it might be said, that this set at rest the idea of a com mutation of tythes. But he had never yet heard of a plan for ;a commutation to which he did not think this measure was to he preferred. The great principle, in his opinion, was to look • to the proprietor, and they should thereby save all the liti ..gation, and remove all the grievances together. Of the dif ferent evils complained of, none appeared.to him so great as the extreme subdivision of property in Ireland. In this country they had seen the progress of civilization and hap piness begin where that minute subdivision of property ceased, ~ a nd its consolidation proceeded to a certain extent. As this system now operated in Ireland, it appeared to him, that while it gave the forty shilling freeholder no real. advantages, it gave rise.to almost all the evils with'which he was surrounded. Such a plan as he had described - had been introduced into the other House last night by a Right Hon. Friend of his, arcs he felt it necessary to state that this was not the only plan which was in contemplation by the Irish Go v:irnment. There was another most important measure under their consideration, for another Session, and this was advanced chiefly for the purpose of trying how the principle could be introduced. There was also a measure in progress for esta blishing an efficient police, ID which he was aware that many objections had been Made. He was, however, convinced of its :,necessity, and looked forward with confidence to its practical results. He should not enter into further discussion upon its merits, as it would in due time come regularly before their :Lordships' consideration. He begged to thank the Noble _Marquis for the manner in which he had brought for-, ward the subject, and he could not suffer this question to go to a division, without saying a few words upon the conduct of the Noble `Lord at the head of the Irish Go vernment. Since he hail so advantageously filled that high office, a part of his time had udhappily • been interrupted by indisposition; but still he had applied the whole force of , his great mind to the quesfiona which this motion involved. He was, perhaps, the last man in the world who would put his hand to a hasty or precipitate measure ; but when he had duly weighed the evils which demanded a remedy, and the conse quences of applying an efficient one-Lwhen lie had matured nis opinion, and satisfied his mind that it was well founded and just, no man would be readier to tarry it into effect with firmness and decision. It was not, therefore, from such a cha racter that they were to expect immediate measures for such an object as the restoration of tranquillity and order in the dis tracted condition of Ireland. That Noble personage was well known to have great capacity; but besides that capacity, he had the strongest attachment for his country. It was there that he first distinkuished himself. He had returned to it now for the first tithe since that period, and his acknowledged desire was, that the last act of his political , life might be one which should lay the foundation of its future happiness. Without meaning the slightest disrespect to the Noble Marquis, and solely for the reasons he had assigned, he should beg leava to move the pre- Vious question.—(Hear !) The Earl of LIMERICK disclaimed all. party feelings in giving, his opinion upon a question of such vital and important interest. The Noble Earl seemed to think there was no neces sity for coming -to this Resolution, but he (Earl Limerick) thought the statement of the Noble Marquis proved the neces sity of coming to this Resolution ; , and if the attention of Par liament were not called to the state of Ireland in the course of this SCSS4.)64 the consequences which would follow would be lamentable. lle denied that much of the distress was attribu table tnthe 'lrish landlords, than whom there were no better in the world, but the'syStern of Excise Laws in Ireland was suffi cient to barbarise any country, as it arrayed every bad interest, and every bad feeling, in • direct hostility to the real interests of the country. Nothing tended more to create cupidity among the middle classes - than the mode of elections in that country, and in that point he would wish to see a Reform. 'With respect to the system of tithes, he would say, that although he was de scended on both sides from two Clergymen, 'and ought there fore-to have a wish to witness the prosperity of the. Church, yet when he saw that the present system did much mischief and no general good, lie could not advocate it. Ile wished not to be understood as the advocate for the spoliation of the Church, because if he were such an advocate, he should consider himself. an advocate for the spoliation of his Own property ; but he did advomte the commutation of tithes when effected by the consent of the majority of the Church. • The Noble Earl had said, that such a measure would have the effect of taking away many of the resident elergyMen. He did not believe that a clergyman would be more inclined toleave his living when he was certain of receiving the amount of his income. fie never would con sent to the proposal of the Noble Earl, that the property of the country should he liable to the demands of the clergymen. At this moment the landlords received very little ; and if they were liable to the demands of the clergy, they would receive nothing. Ile supported the Tithe Bill, because although it did not go far enough, yet it did good as far as it went. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that those who were the objects of the administration of justice in Ireland found no - reason to complain of it, as was evident by the comparatively few appeals made to that House. The Noble Lord remarked that he had lately been examining into the number of ap peals which • remained to be disposed of, and had calcu lated the days they would ,ocoupy, should their Lordships be pleased to order that the Lord Chancellor sat constantly to hear them. For those of England, Ireland, and 'Wales, it would require fifty days. But those of, his friends the Scotch would require 00 days:—(A laugh.)—With regard to the Ma gistracy in' Ireland, he was convinced that if some dozen df the N'ible Lords he saw about him would go and reside there for three months in the year, they should hear no further corn plaints. In what he was about to observe upon some part of the Noble Marquis's speech, he wished to be understood as not meaning any disrespect to him who so well deserved the respect of every respectable man. But he had never before heard the tithes described as taxes and imposts upon the people. They were no more taxes - and imposts than the other nine-tenths of the Noble Marquis's estates. Another Noble Lord had also talked of interference with the property of the church. He would tell that Noble Lord that he had no more right to interfere with that property, than he (the Lord Chancellor) had to interfere with the Noble Lord's nine-tenths. He and his ancestors had purchased that nine-tenths and no more; and the other portion belonged to the Church by the same right which kept him in possession of his own. The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE confessed that he had been disheartened and disappointed at hearing the Noble Earl op pose this resolution : it had certainly been his hope that the subject would have occupied the attention of Parliament this Session. He thought, however, the resolution would skew to the people of Ireland that their Lordships' House, as wel as the Irish Government, were considering of 'remedies to cor rect the evils of the system of which they complained. If the police plan were adopted, he knew that some Magistrates of high honour, and who performed.great services to the part of the county in which they resided, would retire in disgust. He entirely' and heartily concurred in the motion of the Noble Marquis, and begged as a landed proprietor to return him his thanks for the manner and the time in which he had brought it forward. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE eulogised the character of the Marquis of Wellesley, and expressed his conviction that the measure m progress in the other House, to which he had a de cidea objection, did not originate with that Illustrious Indi vidual. He did not think time had yet been given him, and 'whenever his measures were matured, they would be measures of a great mind, and adequate to the great object which called them forth. _ Lord EL LENBOROUGH said, that if the statement of the Noble Marquis were unanswerable. as it had been described, and as he considered it to be in some points, it was the strongest censure on the present and past Governments of Ireland that could be devised. The Noble Earl at the head of his 'Majesty's Treasury had said that the state of Ire land depended upon the state of society in that country ; but he (Lord Ellenborough) traced the state of society to ,the Statute Book. He begged their Lordships to consider how different would have been the condition of Ireland at this mo ment if such a resolution as that now proposed had been agreed to at the Union. He was of opinion that the tranquillity of Ireland would never be restored under the present sys tem of government.' It was impossible that justice could be done to the population, or what was equivalent to that, it was impossible that they could believe they . should receive justice, while the existing laws ,remained in force upon the subject of religion. The Noble and Lea-,ned Lord upon the Woolsack had said that the small number of Appeals proved that there was no objection to the administration of justice in Ireland. But it was not between the rich and the rich that justice was said to be withheld. It was between the rich man and the poor man, and of such cases the appeals could give them no account. With regard to the question of tithes, he should undoubtedly agree to some such proposition as the Noble Earl had suggested. But the plan would be of no use unless it were made compulsory upon proprietors. The Earl of BLESINTON observed, that the Act of taking away the lands from the Roman Catholic Clergymen, and giv ing them to the Protestant Cl6.gymen, was a sufficient prece dent to justify Government and the Legislature in making any alteration in the arrangement of the tithes that they might think proper. Lord DARNLEY deprecated the tithe system in Ireland, and regretted that nothing effectual had been done for the ame lioration of the condition of the Irish population. The pros pects in Ireland! were brighter in consequence of the visit of his Majesty to that country, and the appointment of a Noble Marquis at the head .of the Government gave every reason to hope that the situation of Ireland would be considered, and that the country, so long neglected, would at last be placed under the advantage of the British Constitution. With re spect to the administration of justice, he did not wish to throw discredit upon the Magistracy of Ireland. In one part, with which he was more acquainted, he had reason to believe there was a respectable Magistracy, but he was persuaded that censure would apply to the Magistrates of other parts. The measure in the other House of Parliament would not remedy the evil, but rather disgust. His Noble Friend could not be charged with precipitation in bringing forward this motion. The time had come, When Parliament ought to inquire into the state of Ireland, and if their Lord ships should be of opinion the proposition of his Noble Friend could not be adopted during the presont Session, he expressed a hope that it would be brought forward next Session. Rather than the subject should be passed over unnoticed, he would mention it himself, again and again. The Noble Earl gave his support to the motion. I Lord HOLLAND said, after what had been' expressed on the subject by those Noble Lords connected with Ireland, and after the able and eloquent speech of the Noble Baron (Ellenborough), who was, like himself, not connected with Ire land, he wouldionly express his opinion on topics that had been. improperly brought before their Lordships, and were not con nected with the subject. The motion of his Noble Friend only went to pledge their Lordships to take the state of Ireland into their consideration; this was answered by the Noble Earl by moving the previous question; that was, according to Parlia mentary language, saying this is not the proper time fgr taking it into consideration, but when'it comes from Ministers it bears another construction—have confidence in the ExecutiVe, and it will do all yeu ask for. He agreed that Parliament had had sufficient patience on this subject, for when a message came from the Crown for coercive measures against the people of Ireland, which their Lordships reluctantly granted, the Noble Earl at the held of the Treasury told them, it was the state of the society of the country made them necessary, and the ' Executive was trying.to obviate it, which was precisely the same tone which they had heard for the last 22 years. When his Noble Friend "(the Duke of Devonshire), with the .'modesty 'which became his age, and with that Promise of ability which was inherent in his family, presented- a Petition for the com mutation of tithes—(Hear, hear, hear,)—the Noble Earl oppo site (Liverpool) highly complimented his Grace, and seemed to concede to the prayer -of the Petition, and so far imposed on his Grace, as to make him believe that he would concede ; but he (Lord Holland) told the Noble Duke he was mistaken, for the Noble Earl had two modes' of getting rid of a ques tion ;—the first, by being 'boisterotts, and, declaring that the country' was in danger, or that the Church and State were in danger ;—the other, by acceding to every thing that was said, but it was not the time for its being carried into effect. He, for himself, would rather take the Noble Earl in his higher tones, for in his softest moments he was the most dangerous. —He recollected, on the question of the Catholics, the great est objection the Noble 'Earl' had to the measure was, that it would put swords in the hand of the Catholics to cut the throats of those - belonging to the established Church ; but he• afterwards agreed to a Bill introduced by the late Duke of Nor folk, which put the very swords in the hands of the-Catholics. When his late ever-to-be-lamented friend, Mr. Horner, in the other House of Parliament, brought forward the subject of the currency, the Noble Earl merit with abhorrence, and there was a resolution passed in the other House of Parliament, that ' a one pound Bank note and a shilling were of equal value as a guinea; but afterwards the Noble Earl assumed the proposition of Mr. Horner. The Noble Earl said at one time, from the increase of the population of the country, the Standing Army could not be reduced, not one could be taken 'from it, and afterwards he swept away one-third of it. It was the same with the reduction of the taxes ' , the Noble Earl had told them that not o n e s hilli ng " cou ld b e given up, since which several taxes had been repealed. The Noble Earl, perhaps, would tell them it was 'not he that had given them up, but the House of Commons. He would tell him that he was at the head of his Majesty's GcVern i-nent and was particularly connected w ith th e finances of the Government, and that. he ought not to make assertions to their Lordships and the country, which were not founded in fact. Then came the question of the Sinking Fund : the Noble Earl would not part with'a shilling of it; he would take it into his embrace, and clasp it to his bosom ; but the moment he could not deal with the Jews, hii arms got enfeebled and he lets it fall from his embrace.—(Bear!)—The Noble Earl had, told them to trust to him and his Colleagues, and they would bring the country safely through. He, for one, did not believe him ; for whether it was from the - construction of the present Admi stration, or its bad component parts, he, for one, would ' not trust then). The whole of the Noble Earl's argument against the motion' was the state of society. This came with 'a bad grace from a person who supported the Union, and brought that -bad society into the.bosom of his country. The Noble Lord concluded by intreating their Lordships, as they had in troduced the people of Ireland into the English Constitution, to give them the whole benefit of it, and not to suspend the trial by Jury from time to time in that country. The House was then cleared for a diVision. For the original Motion— Contents present - 35 Proxies - - 25—Total - GO Against the Motion— . Not Contents - - - . 66 Proxies • - - - 42:—Total - 108 Majority against the Motion - -—4 B Adjourned at Halt-past ELEVEN o'Cloek, to Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. WARRE presented a Petition fron Taunton, against the Licensing Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the said Bill. Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from two individuals who exercised the trade of Tanners in the - County of Surrey, representing that they had discovered an advantageous mode of dressing ides, and praying for encouragement.. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. DALY gave notice, that on Wednesday next he should bring forward a motion respecting,the present Tithe System of Ireland. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR presented a Petition from the Gover nor and Company of the Chelsea Water Works, praying for compensation in conse9uence of the injury, which, they alleged, would be done to their property by the London Bridge Water Works Conapanv.—Ordered to be referred to the Committee on the said Bill. Doyle's Divorce Bill was ordered to be committed; and it was ordered that all notices in the progress of the Bill neces sary to be served on Lady Doyle, should be served on her Ladyship's agent. Mr. COKE presented a- Petition from certain Landowners of Norfolk, complaining of Agricultural distress, and praying for Parliamentary Reform—Ordered to lie on the table. Sir R. - WILSON presented a Petition from a Mi. Lewis, confined in Oakham Jail under sentence of the Court of King's Bench, for a libel, and for a penalty of 1001. inflicted upon him for selling roasted grain, which was stated to he a frau dulent imitation of coffee. This the petitioner denied ;• and he referred to the opinion of the late Chief Baron 111‘Donald, to prove that the selling 9f this grain was no fraud upon the revenue. The petition, after a few words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was ordered to lie on the table. General GASCOYNE wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he meant to persevere in his intention of re taining the remnant of the Salt Tax ? Mr. H. SUMNER wished also to know whether the Leather Tax would certainly be repealed ? It was of consequence to those concerned in the trade to be distinctlyinforrned on the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that with respect to the Salt Tax he intended to propose many resolu tions, in alteration of those already agreed to by the House.— The internal tax, it had already been said, would be reduced to 2s. The other duties he proposed should be continued until 1825, that the public and the House might see the effect of the present alterition. With respect to the export salt, he pro posed to extend the duty free allowance to Ireland.. He pro posed also that Ireland should be allowed to manufacture salt, without payment of any duty. The last observations would ap ply to Scotland, to which it was also proposed to extend those allowances.—Should his plan meet the approbation of the House, he intended to persevere in his promise to take off the Leather Tax. But he was satisfied that the remission of taxa . - tion could not be carried any further. Mr. CURWEN said the explanation of the Right Hon. Gentleman did not satisfy him : he therefore trusted that the Right Hon.. Gentleman would consent to the discussion of the Measure on Monday. After a few words from Colonel DAVIiS, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. a GILBERT, the conversation dropped. KENTISH PETITION. Mr. HONEYWOOD rose to present a Petition, agreed to at the late Meeting of the County of Kent. It had been agreed to at one of the most numerous and respectable meetings ever held in the county. The' Subjects it touched upon were the Distress of ,Agriculture, Parliamentary Reforrh, and it also called for a reduction of the National Debt. He regretted the introduction of the last passage ; but, he had •no doubt it would have been rendered unnecessary, had Ministers adopted an economical practice of expeuditure. The rest of the petition had his entire support. The Petition was then read, and on the question that it should lie on the table, Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL said, he agreed in the numbers and respectability of the Meeting. s His Hon. Friend bad admitted that the most objectionable part,of the Petition met with his reprobation ; and he therefore thought it proper to state the circumstances ,through which it had found is way into the Petition. The Meeting had been called at the 'in stance of the great Whig leaders. Distress was not so much the subject of discussion as Parliamentary Reform - . He dif, fered from the Meeting in their opinion on this subject ; but this was only admitting a fair .difference of opinion. How ever, after a Petition had been agreed to, a person, whom he supposed he must call a gentleman, for he said he was a freeholder of the county, proposed that part of the Peti tion about the National 'Debt, and suggested it as a Rider to the Petition. A pause ensued, on its being proposed, and at length the motion was seconded. It was opposed by a No ble Earl, who no doubt considered the character and conduct of Cobbett the proposer, as worthy of the reprobation of every honest man. Had his Hon. Friend joined 'at the Meeting in the disapprobation, he had no doubt this disgraceful motion would not have been adopted. He (Sir Edward) had asked what was proposed by the petition ; whether it was a change of men or a change of measures ; but no one gave him a satisfac tory answer, except Colobett, who boldly said, that its object was the 'reduction of the National Debt. He must be permit ted to say, that the great Whig leaders would have done better to give up the petition altogether, than adopt it with such a proposal. He concluded by protesting in the name of the county against the idea that that suggestion contained the sentiments of the great body of the Freeholders. Mr. HONEY WOOD admitted that the Meeting originated with the Whig leaders; but it was attended by the most re spectable individuals of the. county, who were of party. He repeated that he disapproved of that part of the petition which related to the National. Debt Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished the Hon. Baronet had taken the sense of the meeting on thii part of the question ; especially as he thought it was against the opinion of the great body of the Freeholders. He should himself take the first op portunity of renewing his proposal on the subject of Parlia mentary Reform; though he was not decided as to the time when he should do so, or the shape in which he should put it. Upon the objectionable part of the petition,, he begged to say, that he knew of no such thing as a just reduction of the Na tional Debt.—(Cheers!)—lt was a subject altogether uwon nected with Parliamentary Reform. The country was bound in honour to discharge the debts contracted by the Parliament. Nothing but the most overwhelming and admitted necessity could induce him to consent to a reduction by law of the Na tional Debt; and he was satisfied there was no such necessity for it at present. Sir E. KNATCH BULL explained. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he was not in the House when the Petition was presented; and he hoped its re ception had not been opposed ; for however strongly he repro bated the paragraph in question, he thought that did not afford a reason for rejecting the petition. lie orily trusted that it would warn other counties against being betrayed into such dis graceful conduct as that which marked the proceedings at the Kentish Meeting. He had heard with satisfaction, though not with surprise,' the sentiments of the Noble Lord opposite on the proposition of the petitioners respecting the National Debt. He never -supposed that the Noble Lord would support so flagitious and degrading a proposal; but the Noble Lord would forgive him for remarking that he was sorry to hear the terms, " consent," and " overwhelming necessity" mentioned together as applicable to such a suggestion. He thought these terms when connected might be thought to counte nance an idea of the necessity of the measure of spoliation proposed by the petitioners. He conceived that the rights of the public creditor were as inviolable as those of the family of the Noble Lord himself to their large possessions. —(Hear, hear, hear !)—The public creditor had as - good a right to his debt, as the Duke of Bedford to his manors—(Cheers) ;—and the neces sity alluded to by. the Noble Lord, which would call for the re duction of one, must destroy the safety of the other. It must be a necessity which would make the measure in question one of pure violence. With regard to that part of ,the petition which called for Parliamentary Reform, there could of course be no objection to it.; but ,he trusted the paragraph in this petition, respecting the National Debt, would prove a .warning to Parliamentary Reformers, when they thought proper to attend Meetings of this description. Whatever vices might be attributed to the Parliamentary Representation, he trusted that House would be able to exercise a calm and dispassionate judgment of the subjects brought under its consideration, and to distinguish between the fair and legitimate complaints of the .people, and the menacing proposals of dishonourable men. Lord JOHN. RUSSELL said that the necessity to he alludes/was that which would attend ,our being invaded by a foreign enemy, and finding it unable to raise the means of op posing him without a temporary suspension of the payments made to the national creditor. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he thought there was no good, and there might be danger in anticipating a ne cessity, and then raising an argument upon it. He was really sorry the Gentlemen of Kent had not rescued themselves from the stain which was affixed to them by this Petitio'.'. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was willing to'retract the Word consent," if the Noble Marquis wished it. He really had no idea that the Noble Marquis was such a critic in lan guage.7(A laugh.)—lle believed the proposal contained in the Petition had been hastily adopted by the Meeting, whose feelings were carried away by the sufferings they experienced in consequence of the measures of the Noble Marquis. Mr. CALCRAFT said he was perfectly satisfied that bad the two Hon. Members for Kent expressed at the Meeting the in dignation they had expressed in that Rouse at the proposal in question, there would not have been found 50 persons to sup port it. It was adopted, he had no doubt, in perfect ignorance of its effect, and probably many who voted fur it had not even heard it read. He was sure that had the consequence of the adoption of this proposal heenyointed out and explained to the Petitioners, the Gentleman who proposed it, who had never before attended a County Meeting of Kent,. and who was not before known as a freeholder of the County, would have been desired , to take his horse and take himself away. This pro posal destroyed the value of the rest of the Petition ; though he denied that it conveyed the sentiments of the Freeholders of Kent, or indeed of the persons who attended that Meeting.— Had he known that such a proposition would have been sub mitted, he should have attended the Meeting. In fact he at the time in question was attending his duty in that House, en deavouring to get a repeal, of the Salt Tax; though he now had reason to believe that he had better to have been at Maidstone. He thought it was the bounden duty of the 'Gentlemen who at tended the Meeting, to explain and resist :the proposal ; and that it was no excuse for them that it came upon them suddenly. Sir E. KNATCHBULL explained. Mr. JOHN SMITH expressed his conviction that the re spectable Gentlemen of the County of Kent would never ad.: visedly support such a proposition as that now offered for the consideration of the House. Indeed, it was to him a matter of severe mortification to find that the Kentish Freeholders were the first to petition for a violation of the publiefaith. Mr. BROUGHAM said, the object of the Noble Marquis, as well as that of'the Hon. Baronet, appeared to throw blame on the Whig Leaders. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said across the table, that he had merely expressed his regret at the line of conduct they had taken. Mr. BROUGHAM said he would take it as stated by the Honourable Baronet. The Honourable Baronet regretted then. Blame was generally conveyed in the most cutting manner by the expression of regret at a man's conduct; be cause while it professed to leave the purity of his motives un questioned, it directly arraigned the soundness of his under standing. The Noble Marquis also appeared to aim an attack through the sides - of this meeting upon County Meetings in ge neral ; for if the sentiments of the County of Kent were to have no value, he knew no other which could lay the slightest claim to probity or intelligence. It was impossible, however, that the charge against the 'Whig Leaders, and that also against the Meeting, could both be sustained. If the Meeting were to blame, the _Leaders escaped ; but if the Leaders were to blame, the Meeting must escape. Both attacks could not exist together' with any appearance of reason. The Whig Leaders, however, were clearly exculpated ; for a Whig Nobleman opposed the objectionable proposal, and he and his friends voted against it. Blame, for factious purposes, had been thrown upon them ; but they had given • their decided opposition to the proposal, and more could not be expect ed of them, He (Mr. Brougham), had their authority for say ing, that in their belief the opinion of the meeting was 'so de. cidedly in favour of the proposal, that all opposition to it would be ineffectual. He certainly believed, that had the meaning and the consequences of this proposal been fully ex plained to them, they would not have adopted it ; but he did not think the adoption of it took aray, from the value of the rest of the petition. The distress of the petitioners, and of which they complained,. could not be denied, for it was noto rious; and he begged to deny that, in consequence of the adoption of this proposal' by the Kentish Meeting, men of weight and character ought to withhold their attendance and support from county meetings. He trusted the counties of England would continue to meet, to describe their sufferings, and to protest against the system of misgovernment which had occasioned them. And with regard to the preservation of na tional faith, lie thought that the more the question was dis cussed and sifted to the bottom, the more was public credit likely to be sustained.—( Hear, hear!)—He perfectly agreed that nothing but that state of things which altogether preclud ed comment should induce Parliament to listen for a moment to the crude and undigested proposal which had found its way into this petition. Mr.. CALCRAFT explained. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, he exerted himself to point 0a the tendency of the proposition in question ; but the meet ing would not listen to him—(A laugh.) Mr. HONYWOOD explained, but we could not distinctly hear the explanation. We understood him to say that a Noble Friend of his would also have explained the consequence of the proposal, had it not been that he was fatigued by being squeezed up in a waggon at the meeting.—(A laugh.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he believed the Whig Leaders would be little thankful for the defence which had been made foe them by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But he (the Marquis) was in the judgment of the House, whe ther he had said any thing to discourage the holding of County Meetings. Mr. EROUGHAM said, that however objectionable or un just the proposal of the petitioners might be, it was not more so than the policy of the Noble Marquis respecting the Restric tion 'of Cash Paythents, and the subsequent Resumption of them.—[Here there was a general cry of " Spoke, spoke V.' and the Hon and Learned Gentleman sat down.] Lord CLIFTON raid, he admitted there had been a want of spirit among the Whig-Leaders, on the occasion in question.— (Cheers.)—He would, humble an individual as Ile was, have addressed the Meeting on the subject of the proposal in ques tion, had he not beet induced to forbear doing so by the opi nion of a Noble Relative of his. But notwithstanding the ob noxious ryder to this petition, he trusted, the House would not consider the whole of the petition as without value. How Mr. Cobbett had got possession of the Meeting it really was impos sible to imagine. He (Lord C.) for one condemned the propo sal as one of a revolutionary character. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the manly and becoming acknow ledgment of the Noble Lord was a better defence for the Whig Leaders than that which had been made for them by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Cheers.) -Why Mr. Cobbett had got possession of the Meeting was evident enough,—he had boldly and manfully stated his proposal. The charge against the Meeting was not that they had made the proposal contained at the end of the. Petition. The Leaders were highly . blame. able for not coming forward and meeting Mr. Cobbett in argu: ment. It was no defence for them that one of them was tired . and squeezed in a waggon. The proposal w as u ndoubtedly crude and undigested, - hut it was manly and direct ; and he preferred even that to the insidious observations which wen t forth to the world, that though that proposal was bad, the Par liament had adopted measures which were worse. Mr. BENNET said he was surprised that -the Right go. Gentleman was desirous to do away the disgrace which at tached to the pillage in the first instance of the public creditor , and the pillage afterwards of th e p u bli c d e b tor , w hich had been committed by the Government. These profligate andf abandoned examples had corrupted the h ones t feelings the country ; though after all he did not believe that the pro posal in question could be considered as the act of a discussing body. Mr. WESTERN said, he was surprised at the consumma te assurance of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in denounc". ing the people of Kent for an expression coming f rom then' in the depth of their misery. The meeting was most respec t ' able, and he believed it was not Mr. Cobbett who wrung tae obnoxious expression from them ; bnt that it was of their own accord. He believed too, that ,it was not their opinion alone' but that of many of th e m os t res p ec t a bl e peo pl e of t': country, and was gaming ground so fast, as to endanger toe peace and tranquillity of the country., Mr. HUME contended, that the words of the Petition, ca l " ling for a just reduction of the interest of the debt after d ig reform of that House, could b e cons t rue d i n f a i rness t o mean „- n more than a similar reduction to that lately made by thesCli"; cellor of the Exchequer. Thel l Whigs had been accused, b i tl a he complained of the Tories as the enemies of the country, 3 ' 4 , those who were the cause of all the evils und er Which it w 3 suffering. Sir F. BURDETT thought it was very hard that his 0 1:;' Friend, the Member for K e nt (M r . H one y wo od), should e, fallen upon in the way he h a d b een by b o th s id es o f t h e Wil ts .:: in consequence of his omissi on to d o w h a t f ew o f t he most eijo perienced public men would have had presence of mind to in his situation. It was plain that his Hon. Friend was a, whelmed by a sudden ebullition of popular feeling. of all did he think his Hon. Friend's colleague (Sir E. Kn a bull) had any right to censure him, wh en h e , t h e T or y er; ber for the County, and known to be hostile to the proceeding altogether, did not manfully go forwird to do. IN ith re s in' to the merits of the Petition, he did thltik' that, it was not athe fair to stigmatize the peopl e in the way they had been for t proposition the Petitioners had made.- He-hoped the IPt i would not allow the Noble M arqu i s o ppp s it e to p u t thenti n t ii state, of hostility, with the peopl e . The p eo pl e h a d a rig" for canvass any question as to the just amount of anydebts ion which they were burdened ; and in expressing their oil the result of their deliberation, they were not to be W l ' with dishonesty. They th oug ht th ey h a d a r i g ht to see Vi e ' trenchment carried to the utmost extent ; and whateve r Noble Marquis might tell that HouSe on,the subject, the idiots ple would not be his dupes in schemes that almost could see .through. They knew that they now received ; a where they before received .505., and therefore they wishe d tjis y the debts should be settled in th e sam e way. If that was b honest, let the Right lIOn. Secretary shew that it wag s 0 e his arguments, and not give abuse instead. Hlwould &la m , ' people reasonable, and re a dy to d o th e u t mo s t , i n what t t he conceived a just and fair course. H e did no t mea n to sl f Right Hon. Gentleman was not right—he had opinions 0 eO , own on the subject, and certainly s h ou ld never a d v ise tbey te . pie to act in a way that was not right and honest. Il e re . lieved there was to be no opposition to the Petition being ceived.—(Hear, hear !) iv Mr. MANNING said a few words which were inaudi ble the gallery, o f Mr. MONCK was as anx i ous as any man for the suren c e public credit. He tho u ght, h owever , t h at some dle should be made between the old creditor of 1797, who cl e= advances to the State in a metallic currency, and the new, os es tutor, who paid in a depreciated c urrenc y. Th ese two °these of men had claims of a different nature and amo u nt. For - reasons it was that he voted for a revision of the currencPon Mr. T. WILSON defended th e c h anges w hi c h ha" —dis place in the currency, and denied that any of the presen t tresses were ascribable to them. 4 . er ing. Mr. G. E. PHILIPS said, that, however great the SW' v le at present were, they would, be much increased, if be turned to a state of depreciation of th e currenc y, in whi c contended, all the evils originated. Mr. LOCKHART said, that when Oliver Crorrvekrett no provisions in his camp he voted a general fast ; so ;pee there was no gold in the country that House voted tha t Zela . was equal to gold. Keeping this i n v i ew h e thought it, ct iva seem, rather hard to call men rogues who asked for a re"oter of the interest of the national debt, seeing how little the in was understood. -e in Mr. J. MARTIN believed that the objecti o n a ble ta u 'fall the Petition'came from persons who were ignorant of iC i the ut import, and he hoped the House would not separate ' Ol , O O- corning to an express understanding that they wo u ld not sue. Lion a reduction of she national debt. After a few words from Mr. D. BROWN, the Petition "I'4 ordered to be laid on the table. ' On the Motion that it be printed, Mr. BROUGHAM took occasion to observe, t hat it vals b ro opinion that the principal of the public d e bt o ught not 9 ' re at infringed upon, and that it was their duty to ray the iateoll`l t as long as they could. He believed they would be able s . s . this if they retrenched every unnecess a ry existing ex,t, r ,, s w al gance ; but if not, and his Majesty' s Mi n i s t e rs were all ooe to go on in a continued course of wilful extravagance , large could say how long they would continue able to discsao their lawful debts. It was in the whol e series of in ea c seec with regard to the currency, that the evils felt in the Pr 4a ry day were attributable ; and when the Right Hon. See r ` t s t• opposite talked of some one making insidious round-al:la tell tacks on public faith and the public creditor, he wo n. ' w ere him to whom that language applied. He, and those Ivli e t hen about him, might settle it amongst thems e lves, for it «' a tore b se who were implicated. It was their measures, as he had c o as observed, which partaking of the nature of rapine and Gent fraud, were, at once a n in s idi ous , unman ly, b a se, and vi attack on public credit.—(Hear !) Gen tle- Mr. Secretary PEEL assured the Hon. and Leaned man, that of all that he might ever have to object to 0 ; the underhand course was one which should not be among' do number. He did refer to him when he talk e d o f insin d Ti o as' on the score of necessity against the maintenance of l ie be' faith inviolate; and he alluded to his plans st a ted at t sece s ' ginning of the Session for the reduction of taxation. to sity might in some cases justify extreme measures, bu t w o. ply such a principle in the present cas e a s re commender' , Ici be the same in a public sense as a highway robbery vi e° in a private one.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. BENNET said he was ready to repeat that hi 9 a blic jesty's Government had committed a c h ea t upon the oae creditor, in continuing the fraudulent measure of 17 97 ' he willing to pay the public creditor, but not more than - to pi him ; but if he had borrowed 20s. and was called tie i c atl' A s 30s. he should resist that as a che a t a nd f rau d. His 0 ,' ; 3 1,, Ministers, whilst they talked so much about national ta`;'o4 9 ; public credit, were those who were guilty of the mos t „,a loPs attacks upon both. The remembe red r acts . would be reemh•l`TH leav e after their names were sweptinto obli v ion.. They . w"' a fte r monuments of ruin behind them, which would exist longoiell their names were not known but by the record of infaini a bi should explain to after times the autho r s of the evil s would then press upon them. The Marquis prquroistroafeteLdONdisDcOusNsiDonEßnoßr to Yd e id op n y ot th r e ise lan t o 4l;'f the temper in which the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury C. ; 0 sitYi net) had delivered himself, which, he would venture so ns ° were as peculiar to himself as they were rare in P e e r , of ret his station in life. If he meant to become the advoen' - rete"t• volution and spoliation, he must find a. much better 1,40 t than what he had put forward that night. When he e3 k iag paying 30s. for 208. borrowed, he must tell him, tha.,al7 ll : the circumstances under which the contract with t he i ,; c `h, creditor was made—we having spent the moneY, w,, e 'd to law, was only to be paid initerling money and eg. r ` ni es paid off at the end of the war, it would be e xercisug ee go t.e i round lt; dishonest power now to turn and decide upon di o of their debts. The bargain was made upon clear al! tiv , 10 6 ligible principles on both sides, and they ought hone" Englishmen, to perform their parts of the contract. if .ol l ' . Mr. BENNET and the Marquis o f LONDOI"' mutually explained.. P ub. Mr. RICARDO said he had great doubts whether turr e t t° lic creditor had benefitted by the changes in th e a t t which had taken place. He thought the people had bat t ca he nv s a a s m s e an t Lq e u h e e str ou o g f h t t h i e aef n o a r t e u t r h e e o y f ad th op et t r ed own an y stet -a e hte hue the public creditor, it was a bounden duty of the po ite to make out a case of grievance. e a uts . ope s Mr. HUME said, he thought the Noble Marti c aat a .. ought to look to his acts in another country before nl revaalet his Hon. Friend, the Member for Shrewsbury , win one tionary conduct. Ile challenged him to point out o eif l i s d e bts sa ir,_s l , of diihonesty in the public or private conduct of P`_ t Friend. The Noble Marquis's war-whoop had lon.f , _' w as n t e .. 'pine and revolution ; but, like the boy in the fable, now listened to. He thought they had no rig ht to touch public creditor at all.. Mr. BENNET and Lord CLIFTON also said DO" in explanation. pe ts 0n ye • w as Mr. HONEYWOOD, on moving that the pen w ho The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explain.ed.a few 0 1.0 e . to e in th a d w , a s r a e id a. t t h h e at in th te e n re tio w n as to n i o n t tr o o n d e u p ee er t s h o e n petition.—The Petition was then ordered to be pr teu• the '- Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that when MAYNOOTH COLLEGE, IRELA Nik ' 89t44 cilnauthseeoblntLe 1