The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-10 00:00:00

by the united will of the I:enlatien, the King, Lords, and Commons,—(Cheers.) It is to be passed, therefore, after sufficient and mature deliberation. It is to proceed according to the known fitters of the constitution, and to be carried into effect by the acknowledged authorities of the State—carried into effect by the will of the three co-ordinate branches of the Legislature, the Kinn, Lord., and Commons. It touches, therefore, The of the ordi nary authorities—invades none of titnetoms of the Consti tution, nor the powers of the Oetewn which are intruste with the preservation of the authorities of the State. With such it tines not protein to meddle or interfere.— (Cheers. ) Why then is it to he designated a rtvolntionary measure— a 'word to be used only in reference an in terference with a succession to tnet monarchs', or the authority of the State ?—(Hear, hear.) It can only mean that, and I say it dette neither ; and that neither in its character, nor in its terms, nor in its mintiples can it be described to be revolutionary. It is a Reform of Par liameat, and how, again I ask the Noble Duke, does he distieraish Reform from revolution? How is a Reform tai effected? I know no way of effecting a Reform of Par liament, which presupposes some defect ir. the Con stitution of Parliament—(Hear, hear, neat)—some defi ciency in the mode of representation, but in one or all al these three modes, either by disfranchising decayed boroughs, which was the ancient practice of the Constitetion, and cannot be considered es revolutionary—Jetty( cheers) and that is disfranchisement ; or by giving the right to return representatives to great nswes which' have risen to opnlence and importance, as has been the practice in all times, and that is not revolution, hut reformation; or else by an extension and improvement in the right of voting, which has also been done when a change cf times has restored it, and which I again say is not revolution but Reform.—(Loud clients.) By one, or either, or all of those modes is Reform of Parliament, according to n:y notion, to he effected ; and accordingly, in all the plans that have hitherto been proposed to Parliament—in all the ; sans hitherto proposed by the great men as/10 have preceded me, and in those which I may have been presumptuous enough to have proposed to the other House of Parliament, ell the plans have proceeded either upon one or all of these modes.—(Cheers.) I trust, therefore, I stand here bringing +Omani a measure, not going beyond the ancient limns of the Constitution of the country, and th it can in no way be considered as of a revolutionary kind. But is it necessary to argue thus Let us recur again to the great advantage we have in bringing forward this measure, in the general acquiescence of the. people of this countryen(llear) —not of the mob—not of persons uninstructed in Reform__ :Cheers)—let not Noble Loris imagine that that is the description, and the only description of the persons who have asked for this measure.—( Hear, hear, Incr.) It is requested by the great mass of to intel ligent, the powerful, the opulent, the aushneitative, and cf all the most important in society,._(Loud awl re iterated chesty.) Why, then, can it be necensery fur me to go into argument to prove that a measure Cannot be revolutionary which is supported in the way 1 now state. Who are the persons wipe support it ? I say they are the mast intelligent end the most important art of the community, possessing the greatest rrenenee o f wealth, and the most vital interests in the peoperty of this country, of which they possess so large te share—(Cheers) ; And can it be believed in the 30th century, with the improvements of knowlenge, with all the intelli gence which that class of persons possess, that they would come forward and propos- to your Lordships —nay, ..iltreat, that you would adopt as a measure of salvation to them and to their posterity, a system of Reform which was dcstroy their rights of property—a measure to interfere not only with the security of their posses tootle, but to interfere with those institations of the country which it was their desire not to pull down, but to improve, and in such a mannee as to afford them and theirs the heat and most ample protection ? my Lords, I therefore proceed to say, that this Bill is founded, like the last, on the three great principles which I have just named ; and having on a former occasion twice addressed your Lordships, at very great length, in support of the views which induced me to propose a measure founded upon those great principles, I will ebetain at the present time from going into those general iniguments which I could only repeat without adding to your information, and which would consequently be a useless waste of your Lordship' time. I will therefore confine myself to a statement of those circumstances, on which, in respect to those principles and the measures founded upon them, the present Bill dif fers from the one last presented to yetis' Lordships' notice ; and first with respect to the principle of disfranchisement. It is proposed by the present Bill to di franchise, as it was by the lass, a certain number of bo roughs which base fallen into decay, which are considered, I think justly considered, as an abuse in the system of re presentation, and to substitute for them those towns winch have risen to much wealth and importance. (Hear, hear.) The manner in which that number of boroughs has been selected, I will now state. It was vroposed by the former Bill that a certain line ghould be drawn, by which all places having a population under 2,000, and in which it was thought, and justly thought, that a sufficient constituency could not be found, that all such boroughs should be sthoiishrd- The advantage of that mede was this ; we drew a distinct line by which its application was limited, and in that degree we were pre cluded from the charge of partiality. But it was objected that we were proceeding upon a principle (which principle was population) that was very unjust. I explained at that time, that that might not be the true. representation of that principle, but that though population had been taken as a criterion, it was but a criterion; but it was the best which occurred to me, and those members of his Majesty's Government with whom I acted, by which the relative importance of name places could be ascertained. I do not k , my Lotds, that any great inconvenience would arise, if we had adhered to that criterion ; but when I, and those who acted with me, with a sincere and anxious desire to consider eisp;ssionately any proposition which emanated from any other quarter, with a view, if possible, and to take a bet ter criterion, if it could be a-certalned, came to consider the subject, we certainly thought could we take a better criterion by a mixed estimate of the number of houses according to the census of 1631-(which was the best proof of population) and the amount of assessed totes. That criterion is founded according to the best principles of telcuntion, and has been approved of by those autho rities who are best informed upon such subjects, and we therefore think it is the best mode of ascertaining the relative importance of the boroughs. Having adapted that plan, we have adhered to the dis franchisement of a certain number of boroughs.—(Hear.) I am aware by looking into this new mode of calcula tion, we do not gain that certain distinct line which was attained tinder the fonner bill; but I think it will be found when your Lordships come to examine the mea sure,—and I trust your Lordships will go into the examination of it in Committee with the intention of canvassing it minutely and strictly— I think and say it will be found, that admitting the prin ciple that decayed boroughs must be disfranchised, it would not be possible to reduce the timber proposed in the Bill to be so dealt with, although possibly according to this new mode of calculation rea sons might be given for' extending it. The best friends, however, of the Bill have concurred with me in thinking it inexpedient to propose to Parliament to extend disfranchisement further than it was ex tended in the last Bel, In adopting, therefore, the cre terion given by the number of house., and the nmeunt of assessed taxes conjoined, we trust we have obviated the objection raised to the former mode of estimating the value of boroughs. I trust that this new criterion will receive the approbation of tie House, and more particularly of that portion of it which objected to that which was adopted in the former Rill. I do not think it necessary to say more un this part of the subject. I have already said that it itt admitted that in any pia] of Reform, there must be some measure of disfranchisement. The ques tion here will be, whether the measure we have adopted, is too much or too little. I think it will be found, when your Lordships go into Committe e ; that it is not too much ; but that is at any rate a question to be discussed there ; so that I trust your Lordships will adopt the minion hich it is this night my duty to make. My Lords, the next alteration made relates to schedule B. When this question was before under the consideration of the House, I said that I was aware schedule B was the weak part of the Bill, and as lam still aware objections may be made to it nas been our desire to reduce as much as possible the amount of those objections. In taking schedule B according to the criterion which has been applied to schedule A, we have, instead of forty-one boroughs, in schedule B 30, having taken out of it 11 of the most considerable towns formerly in it, altogether restoring to them their original right to return two Members. Included in these eleven towns, many cf them, by the way, very impertant, are, it should be observed, several county towns, the pat tial disfranchisement of which before created so much cneection. I know it may be said that the Bill is full of anomalies. I know it will he said that the boroughs restored from schedule B to their original right of re turning two Members each, are many of teem inferior in importance, poptilation, and wealth, to some of those boroughs to which the franchise has now been ex undid. This and other similar anomalies, I admit, ill be charged on the measure ; bet these anoni es, my Lords, are insenerahte from any mode of proceed rig which bats for its principle that of retaining as much possibte of what now exists. And, my Lords, he only mode of obviating this objection, which, by •he •bye, is one which comes unfortunately from those vho contend that we have . "One too much -he only mode of obviatittg TA is by doing still more.— Hear, heat.) kt can only be effectually removed ind made 'perfect in theory, according to those who ,ttend only to theory and principle, nod iset to rrac- Vice, by having an entire new distribution ef Ap. elective ranchise, for which purpose it would be necessary to di eide the whole coenney into electoral districts. This, my Lreede, we have not chosen to do ; we have avoided on ex tensive a change, and preferred that the measure should be subject to the charge of corta l / 4 .%ing anomalies, for the purpose of retaining as much as possible of what now 'hist& My Look, such is the ex tent of the change that has been effected in that part of the bill which carries into effect the princ;ple of disfranchisement. I will now proceed to enfrane:hiternent. My Lords, if there be one part of the subject more than an ether on which I feet ton'atient I ant not exposed to any serious 014ectiett, it is this, that to the great commcl'dal maoofawaring towns which have risen durir-t! Ite last century into importance, and have 3?;t2tned, many of them, a population and a weat.h. equal to many capitals in Europe, it is expedient and necessary that the right of suffrage should be extended. My Lords, the towns that are thus to be raised to the lien of representa tion are contained in echethilea C and 1), and here also there are considetable alterations in the provisions of the Bill. To the twelve new Members which it has been deemed to add to these schedules, it has been olsiected that that part of the Bill was most histV:y objectionable 43 increasing its democeaties t e ndency.—(Hear, hear, hear.) My Lorttle, t could wish as far as I con, to state any et:Sections that are made, and to meet and discuss them candidly, both here and in Committee..._; Hear, hear.) It has been said then, my Loads ; that this addi tion will insrease the democratic tendency of the measure_ But admitting in the first place, which Ido net, that these boroughs are, all of them, to be considered as totally separated from the fended interest,—and here I must allude to this as an unfortunate separation between the commercial, manufacturing, and agricultural interests of this country, in which the objection ori ginates, fhr no one, my Lords, is more cntvinced, I am satisfied, th,u the person now addressing you, of the inseparable connexion of each with the mutual advantage and prosperity of all these interests ;—tak ing this tee be the effect, I 'void(' answer in the first place, that the addition of twelve reel:Macre thus created to those towns is counterbalartretl by the eleven towns taken out of schedule B, whtll keep one member each, as corn. pared with the termer Bill, and which will be con nected thlerty with the landed and egricullnial interests. But, my Lords, I would •ny that the Mem bers coming from thorn ',nails wilt be exclusively manufacturing tir oinmercial. That the Members connected with these towns will be charged with the care of that interests, is indisputable; but neighbouring pro prietors will, undoubtedly, as at present, have the chief influence. It would be seen, my Lards, if the subject were investigated, that in such places the persons connected with the landed interests, many of them connec ted with year Lordships by the nearest relations, have sate, and do sit, as their representatives of such places in Parlia ment, It is not to be presumed that the representation of these pleena must necessarily ha of a democratic nature. But it will be, as it now is, that after all, those connected with the great interests of the country will have the lead in the representation, and no shame need take place, nor any &neer be apprehended by this change in the C estitution of Parl;amett, which, as I have before stated, is a change felinded on an cient precedent and the established principles of the Constitution. And here) must caution you against one mis tak e it is generally presumed that the returns of elections wilt ast ail times be the same, as they arc in tames of po pularagitation. We are not to priga, my Lords, of what willbe the effect of returns hereafter, by the effect now produced when the question of Parliatnentary Reform has been so much agitated. This ettestien disposed of, my real and firm conviction is, that things will settle into their former course, and that property, rank, station, and good conduct will resume their influence-e-cHear,)—but if, my Lords, rank, station, and property are not, as they ought to he, connected with good conduct, why ought they to be connected with that influence, which legitimately belongs to them, and which in my opinion to the advantages of the coun try, they ought to possess P Passing that, however, it is not necessary, it is not fair, to suppose that this representation will be one of unmixed demo• cratic tendency ; that the representation will he so far connected with manufacturing and commercial interests, as will give them security of atten tion to them, is not to be doubted. And, my Lords, When you consider what have been the growth and progress of this interest, the grooving and increasing prosperity of these towns-, will it be said that 64 members, the number of schedules C and D, are 100 much to repre sent that important interest, which, in connexion with other interests of thecoun try, are inseparable from its wealth and power ? On the general principle of enfranchisement I have now, my Lordo perhaps said enough ; and on the particular alterations that have taken place, I have dwelt perhaps sufficiently at length, as an opportunity will be given for that purpose upon going into Committee, where this subject will be bet'er considered, and provided for, I trust, in a way most consistent with the general sa tiefattien and the promotion of the welfare of the nation. My Lords, the next great principle to which I will advert, and which constitutes the true and legitimate character of this Reform Bill, is the extension of the right of voting. My Lords, on the general principle on which that proceeds, I feel myself called upon to say a few words. I ought to state to your Lordships that I am confining myself chiefly at pie sent to what has been done in the way of alteration. The county representation is not altered, and I may, perhaps, presently say something on it. But in my present review of the subject, as much as possible to save your Lordships' time and spare myself unneci ssary fatigue, I abstain altogether from going into those principles of the measure which were before discusee: 4 , or upon those p articular provisions of the Bill which retrain unaltered. But in respect to the 101. franchise, it was stated before by a Noble Earl, whom I see opposite, on presenting the Oxford petition, that in the petition—(Loud cries of hear, hear,)-- which, by the bye, did by impication, if not by direct admission, certainly give a sanction to the principle of Reform, one complaint was, that there was a new right of voting introduced unknown to the Constitution, and sweeping away all former rights. The objection was founded first of all in the idea that the right of voting proposed was unknown to the Con stitution ; next, that it was introduced at the expense of existing rights; and a third ground of objection was its uniformity. This embraced two asser tions equally unfounded in truth. In the first p'ace, that the principle was unknown to the Constitution; secondly, that it interfered with, and tended to the destruction of other rights. As to the latter objection, it affects, sofar as I know, no other rights. The county right of voting in freeholders, remains unaltered. The right of freemen to vote, which was secured by the last 8.11 to the present possessors during the existence of their natural lives, is extended to their descendants, and to those who could obtain their right by servitude for ever. (Hear.) These rights, therefore, instead of being swept away are preserved ; but, my Lords, that the principle is unknown to the Constitu tion, I directly and fearlessly deny. I maintain not only that it is not a principle unknown to the Constitution, but that it is the ancient principle recog nized by the Constitution of Parliamentary representation. My Lords, I am almost ashamed • to trouble your Lordships on this point, which was so well brought forward on tie last occasion by my Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack ; but as the assertion has been repeated, I must return to it. That Noble Lord has referred to the authority of Mr. Serjeant Dunstable, who stated that if a new writ was to be issued,—and lie called upon any lawyer to contradict him in that statement if he could,—that where a writ was issued to those great towns to which it is proposed by the present Bill to give the right of representation, ipso facto, the householder of the borough would be the person who would return the writ. Now, my Lords, this right of voting of the householders is time ancient English right, and what in fact, my Lords, does this. Bill do ? Why, it introduces this right of voting, but with great limitations. It limits it to the inhabitant householders within the borough, provided they can show that they have been occupiers, for a certain time previous to the election, of tenements of the actual value of ten pounds. This, my Lords, so far from being the intro duction of a new right, is a limitation of an ancient one, and one that can be safely adopted by your Lordships. This right of voting, my Lords, is nothing more than the scot and lot right of voting, affixing to it however limitations of the annual value of 101. and also that the rent and taxes should be paid ate to a certain time previous to the right being given. But, however, my Lor.ls, it is stated that there are general objections to this which I shall endeavour to combat, but I wish, my Lords, in the mean time to advert to the alterations which have been made in this part of the present Bill. By the . ormer Bill it was intended the tight of voting should belong to the 10/. householders, but there tract a different • mode of ascertaining the right. There are four modes •f aqeertaining this right, eithrt• by being rated at ten pounds, payin g taxes to atnotnt of t,n pouals, or rent to the 'arms nittount, or by vote by ballot. The reasons, iny Lords, for adopting the alterations were, , hat it was thought that it would simplify the mode of ascertaining the v due, and would gu and ,nore effectually against the practising of deeeit;—(llear.) Now, my Lords, it has E, et iaid that there would be . very re a t dAcUlty in, ascertaining th e value. 'that, my Lords, I do not think will, beat). Nothi ng more is contemplattd by this Dill than What tal'es place a* ll county elections. Th.r h 5 there depends upon per. sons holding freehold of forty shillings—the value then has to be ascertained.—(flear, ihcar.)— and I have not heard, my Lords, that there has been any great difficulty hitherto in ascertaining that fact. Hut, my Lords, it has been thought that more effective modes might have beet adopted to reform alms... I am net, my Lords, ware of any; but if there are, I sholtlat he very *Minty, to lend every assistance to the adop - ion of thorn, with this proviso, that it shall not fatter tha extent of the qualification. As I have heft: 4 ! slid, my Lords, I think there will be no very great difficulty in this respect. I have already . stated to your Lordships that there is no great difficulty in ascertaining the value of treenolds at county elections, and that _Witt`, respect to the votes of the guar. diam CX the poor at Norwich no difficulty had been experienced. I know, my Lords, that it has been proposed by snme that this should be substituted by a proof that rates to the value of 10/.. hake Geri paid ; but, my Lords I tlAin tip C s vould not be expe. altd e'Lli be proved to be totally unne cessary. In the first place I believe, in Lords, it is the custom in great towns to let houses according to their actual value; in some the rate is taken at three . Ifourths, in others atthrecefiftbs, and in some at tiro-third.; and therefore with respect to that, there might be t same difficulty, bitt to Make out the value, that• i s not necessary. The overseer of the poor knows how the Loose!: ace assessed to the poor, and he can ascertain generally the value of the tenement for which the rates are paid. I say therefore, my Lords, that you have here a criterion that goes far to obviate fraud and abuse, and whith will enahle you to ascertain the value easily. I think, therefore, my Lords; the provision introduced into this Bill, will te tffectual; but any thing that can be pointed out id secure that object more effectually, I shall be most happy to take into consideration. Now, my Lords, it has been stated that this is liable to further abuse ; but if any thing can be stated as more effectually obviating that th'ase, I shall be most happy to concur in it.— Except in very few places indeed, not above six or sevtn at the most, the Constituency created under this mode was not at all excessiVe. One fallacy prevailed with th public, they supposed that all those peitObs who were entered as qualified tenants would be able to vote at the election. It must be con sidered that many of these would be absent, many would be widows, and many not otherwise possessed of the right of voting. Probably the persons actually voting might be taken at only one fourth the total number. It must be observed, that this provision does not contain exclusively the 101. houses, for it contains all those above 101 , great many of which are of such a higher de scription of value that no man would think of ex cluding them from the tight of voting. The total number of boroughs in which this right of voting *II be possessed, will be from 3 to 500. There will be 115 in which the constituency will not exceed 30 . ; from 80 to 100, 68 ; front 100 to 500, 100. There was nothing very alarming in this. From 500 and upwards, only 30. Except in the London districts, the highest is that of one thousand twit hundred. Your Lordships will not to reason to apprehend that this privilege of returning Members to Parliament by persons who hive a rental of 101., subject to rates and assessed taxes, can be one that threatens any of those dangers by which it has been endea voured to alarm the public mind. If there is nothing in the numbers, is there any thing in the quality of the persons admitted to the right of British citizens? Those who pos sess tenements above 101. have given a pledge to the com munity for their good conduct by their habits of industry. I trust, then, in contending for this enfranchisement, as one of the material principles of the Bill, it will be seen that care has been taken to guard against the operation of this tneaeure in producing any of the consequences which it has been supposed were likely to ensue. I trust it will he further considered that there must be also a residence and occupation of one year to entitle a person to vote. The period cannot be less than a year, and it might be much more. (Ileer, hear.)—After all the consideration I have been able to give the subject, I do not apprehend that any diffi culty or danger is likely to be experienced from this ; more especially when I consider that in the present scot and lot boroughs, occupations are only required for six months instead of twelve. My Noble Friend has stated that a large measure of Reform is required. That is the case, and I sty that :my great measure of Reform likely to give satisfaction to the country, must be founded on the principle I hate just laid down. But the Noble Earl also objected to the uniformity of this franchise. Now, I hold uniformity prima facie and per se to be a great advantage, for it leads to great facility in execution. The objection to uniformity trust rest upon this—that uniform right of voting will confer the franchise upon one particular description of interest. If this were ti ue, I should admit, uniformity, was an evil, but it is not true. The uniform right of voting esta blished by the Bill is beneficial, as tending to sim plicity and facility in execution ; but th ugh the right be uniform, the possesiiin is rarious. We "''''t recollect that the rank, the habits, the interests, the character, and the dispositions of all persons possessing this right will vary according to the different circumstances in which they are placed. The 10/. voters of Liverpool and Manchester will be a different description of persons from the ten pound voters of Guildford and Dorchester.—(Hear, hear.) In one place they will be conitnercial, in another manufacturing, and in a third agricultural. In some, perhaps, as Chatham and Plymouth, they will be subject to the influence of the Government. That may, however, be an objection ; but I state it to show that although the right be uniform the possession is various, and will be given to all descriptions of persons in the community ; thus producing that effect which all must wish who desire to have a real, and not a nominal representation ; namely, a fair representation of all the interests of the country. I think I have already trespassed too long upon your Lordships' time; but I have now detailed the three great principles of this Bill which are said to constitute revolution, but which I say are great and proper principles of Reform,. and upon which I think this Bill may be beneficially and safely carried into a law. My Lords, there are provisions of the Bill, differing from the last, which have been introduced, chiefly with a view to meet the objections which were entertained by many to that which was before under our considera tion. Its the first place, the numbers of the House of Commons are to remain unaltered, the Members of which representing England and Wales being reduced only by the number of representatives which have been added to Ireland and to Scotland. In the next place, the right of . voting exercised by freemen, instead of terminating withtheir lives, is to be continued to all who acquire it by birth or servitude. In the third place, the boundaries of boroughs, instead of being decided by Com missioners, are to be provided for in the Bill now before the Commons, which will be necessary to give effect to that part of the Bill. Some subordinate regulations have been in troduced, but as they do not affect the principles of the Bill, they are undoubtedly matters lot consideration in Committee. I have left behind me the paper to which I intended to refer, but I can state generally the contents of it. There will be 144 county Members ; the old boroughs, including those now in Schedule B, will return 264 Mem bers ; and the new boroughs will return 64 Members : making in all 472 Members : to which we have to add three county Members given to Wales, and one to a Welch borough—making (with the former twenty-four Mem bers for that Principality) twenty-nine Representatives for Wales, and altogether five hundred Miimbers for Eng land and Wales. Now, with respect to the relative pro portions of the different parts of the kingdom, I do not be lieve that England and Wales will lose any of their just influence by giving up thirteen Members to Ireland and Scotland ; for surely five hundred Members out of 658 are sufficient to maintain them in that station which their importance rightfully clahns. But how stands the argu• anent with respect to the agricultural interns.? I am prepared to contend that the 141 county Members wili belong to that interest, and that out of the 264 old bo rough Members there will be just as large a proportion as ever in favour of the landed proprietors ; there will then only remain the 64 new Members; and it seems to me, that even should the whole of these fal; to the lot of the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country, it will be a share to which those interests are justly en titled, when we take into consideration their importance as regards the well-being of the country. These ate the prin ciples and the alterations which have been made in conse quence of the objet t ors which were r a i se d to the mea sures which were last year b efore y our Lordships. Having now I have endeavoured as tar as I co ul d; and it I have not executed the intentien, I ref ret it sincerely, and I ask you! i7s i ,' I ded that all i feel I had all the to i mp ortance s ay , I beg of my to assure your situation L Lordships' pardon for it, but I have endeavoured, a, far as I could, to avoid any thing which could excite ,unplea lent feelings, which could produce unpleasant se utationit. I wish to introduce this measure in such a manner, and to discuss it in such a manner, as to divest it of all former prejudices, of all party spirit, and of all asperity, and to proceed with consideration and calmness, and to unite in one general desire to achieve the public good. It is in this temper that I have wished to introduce this neasure. lam sensible I have wed With sincerity, and I em the more sensible of it i .Whete I remember the great inte rests which depend; upon thin question. They are in • terests which affect the internal peeve of this country, its manufacturing prosperity, and the security of its fit s reign relatiors.—(Cheer-.) I need not tell your Lordships this, for you must all he aware that those interests must he be materially affected by the long continued sus pence in which the public mind has been kept—fflear) by the discussion of this question, His Majesty's Ministers were tiot to blame fur this snspense, nor will I impute the blame to thdr who thoilght it theii• duty to oppoSe the measure. All I desire is, that it shall be now discussed in such a manner as to bring it to a speedy termination. The opportunity is afforded which I trust will not be lost, for it may not be very easy to recovs r it again.—(Cheers.) I have been accused of using toe language of intimidation ; but . nothing was ever farther from my wish than to influence your Lordships by any unworthy fears on a question which should be de cided by your calm judgment. I wish testate to your Lord ships that no influence, no authority, no power on earth can be wisely set up in deft knee of public opinion, —(Loud cheers.) I counsel your Lo?rslships no!: to yield to the exot bit.nt and unreasonable demands of clamour; but I also state that the deliberate sentiments of discreet and intelligent people, entertained only after long refl ction, are entitled to your at tention, and give me leave to say to your respect. I feel deeply all the. conseqUences of a 'ejection of ;his measure to the country, to your Lordships, and to myself--to the country, as it is connected with all the interests on which its power and prosperity depend, and to your Lordships to whom the people look with con fidence, reverence, and respect. I have been told that the people no longer look upon the question with the same eyes as they did before ; but I s:eny the truth of that assertion. (He kr, hear.) They are silent; but they look with no less anxiety to the deliberations of this evening—they are silent, not from such causes as have been attributed to them ; but solely from an unextinguished hope that your Lordships will grant that for which they have so earnestly prayed.— I believe the silence which has prevailed of late throughout the country, on this measure, to be the effect of a latent hope that your Lordships will not reject the BO!, and give up the people to despair.—( Hear, hear, hear.) These, my Lords, are my views on this important question ; and I ant sensible, that no matt ever stood before Parliament under the same weight of personal responsibility that now rests on me. In the course of this proceeding I have been subject to much undeserved suspicion, which I hope I never shall deserve. I have prop.ksed what I thought would be the best for my Sovereign and my country: and it has been a measure which is now generally ad mitted to be necessary, and with respect to which, the only difference of opinion is, as to the sxtent of it.—(Cheers.) Upon that 1 have exercised the best judgment I had. I believed, (to use the words of my Noble and Learned Friend) that a large measure of Reform—an efficient measure of Reform—such as would meet the just expec tations of the people, was necessary, if wished to ena ble this country to resume that peaceful and prosperous situation to which it is impossible for it to return, so long as this agitation and anxiety pervade the public mind. My Lords, I knew well the difficulties that I should have to encounter ; but I was led by my sense of duty to disre gard them. I hope that I may be allowed to say, that in all the progressive stages of this measure, I have never deviated from that steadiness of purpose which I believed would finally lead to success; and that, as on the one hand, I have not been deterred by threatened difficulties, from proposing this Bill, so, on the other, I have not suf fered myself to be forced by clamour into the prosecution of it by means to which 1 could not in my better judg ment consent.—(Hear.) Under there• circumstances, and feeling that this may possibly be the last time that I shall h sve to press this measure on your Lordships' attention, I must confess that I look with something like hope to :hat which appears to be a sort of approach to a favoura able decision on the part of this Howe. If, however, on the other hand, I should sink under the struggle, I shall at least have the consolation of feeling th it I did, to the best of my judgment, that which I thought right and fit ting, regu:ating my actions according to the sincere dic. rates of my conscience, with the one sole object of effect ing that which should be b, at calculated to promote the interests of my country. All that I pray for is, that if misfortune is to follow this measure, it may be confined to one—that I tray be the sole victim of it. I pray that my sovereign, my country, and your Lordships, may re main untouched ; and above all, though your Lordships may be enabled to form that uniod with the people which is so necessary to the welfare of the whole, as well as to that sentiment upon which your Lordships' influence, and weight in the country, are based. My Lords, I have now only to move that this Bill be read a second time.— (Cheering.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH bore testimony to the fair and impartial manner in which the Noble Earl had made his statement to the House ; but though he was disposed to pay every respect to the observations which had been delivered, he was still bound to say that he had not heard anything advanced by the Noble Earl which was celcula- I d to induce him (Lord Ellenborough) to vote for the second reading of this Bill He was not at all disposed to deny that the Bill had been sent to the Upper House by a large majority of the House o! Commons, who, in their turn, were backed by a large majority in the country. But the question with him was, whit faith ought to be put in the measure itself ; for I;e thought that it was but a poor argument to say that a principle must necessarily be a good one, because it was supported by superior numbers. Now, it certainly was a remarkable f set, that the principal clause in this measure—he meant the ten pound qualifica tion—had been altered no less than eleven times— (Cheers)—and yet a year and a half ago they had been told that this eleven times altered clause, together with the remainder of the Bill, had received the final sanction of the people of England.—( Hear, hear.) In ad dition to which, it was positively true that at the very last moment prier to the Bill being brought to the House of Lords this unchangeable measure had a county Member struck away and a borough Member added—(Cheers) — besides which, no less than forty-seven changes with re spect to schedule B had taken place since that schedule was first introduced to the notice of Parliament. After such changes and diversities as these, he begged to ask whet there was to induce him to obey the call of his Majesty's Ministers, and give his consent to this, which happened to be the last emanation of their fluctuating minds ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Ea.!, in his opinion, had put the question on its true ground ; it was neither snore nor less than whether they should vote for the second reading of this Bill. If they refused to allow the Bill to he read a second time, what would be the consequence? There would be proposed to the House in its place, the Bill of the Noble Duke (Buckingham); and certainly, after what fell from the Noble Duke on the subject of the measure which he had to propose, he did not at all see how the Noble Eirl was warranted in drawing the conclusion which he had with respect to it ; and at all events he (Lord Ellenborough) was anxious that their Lordships should know what would be the result if they departed from that which, six months ago, they had. by their votes so wisely effected. The Noble Earl had told them that the majority of the House of Commons were backed by the majority of the people ; and be (Lord Ellen borough) had already admitted that such was the ease. But it might, perhaps, be worth while to pause for a mo ment for the purpose of investigating of whom that majo trhitey ne.obflosieistbeoty of T f h t e h tl e rs iv t p h a i r g t o . f ri t , h t t e tt er m ee a y j , or t i , t , y ge c t o h n e s r iste w d it o h f their dependents and adherents,—(Hear.) —and yet these Noble n nEarlg them selves hi m m o to t a l g ie ree al()teed f a g on any genera l p rinci p le of Reform; added to which lee (Lord Ellenber r sug h ) would take the libert y of remind ing their Lordships, that about th e 8 i me tim e n early the self, pweerrse nut fiyv head years ha t as l they hole of them, with the exc-ption of the Noble Lord hims 14 had joined the Administration of Mr. Canning, who, to the very lest, was opposed to all Reform what ever. The next portion of the majority in favou: of the Reform Bill was the Irish Roman Cathodic party, And on what principle had they joined the Noble Earl? Why, they had said, as plain as tongue could speak, " It is the Noble Earl's turn now, but ours wi I come next; and that, too, by the dissolution of that very union which the Noble Earl says must cause a dissolution of the empire. --(Hear, hear, hear.) The next portion of this majority was formed by those who, since 1793, had unceasingly advocated every principle that was subversive of good Go vernment and the Constitution—a set of men who for a season had happily been lost in the shades of obscurity, from which they had emerged on the broaching of this question, for the purpose of of proclaiming themselves its leaders and its wannest advocates.—(Hear, hear.) The next portion of the majority was made up of the poorer classes of society; and why had these joined in the general cry? Because they had been told that Reform would give them cheap bread ; that it would produce a change that would raise them from their present unfortunate condition that it would, in short, open the door to a revolution to which, desperation was Filling to look forw4oas,, its only remedy—(Hear, hear)—and thus it was that these poorer classes had been deluded by the false representations of , fa l th th l ; le ide s majorfriends.eeesegnre:e.tswhose ity; itiiovii irt rheeo l is l nousp a tattt v ei :h n tfeae g ddas psoi d al: i itr s trlhys p a:r o oshg s e: E eet woecw o ila f arasd:s t as l oci a si e uo: s f i.ewcrti persons etne i i l is filling ja ; gt : nietn:tot different t a rii oi portions e d it m aisheo i esk admit sum ev 1 conduce to the public . interest and to the securii N ' of those establishment% which had hitherto been supported by the affection and esteem of all those who loved their country. But amongst this latter class was there no change of sentiment ? Was the Noble. Earl the only man in the House who had not read the his tory of the late Doreetshire election ?—(llear, hear.) Was there any man ignorant why Mr. Portman still remained the representative cf that county ? or, rather, was it net generally kn'dwii that it o?.iy arose froth the fear that, sheirld that Hen. Gentleman yesign, another Tory Mem ber would elected for that county ?......(Cheers.) With these facts on his side, ne thought that he was justified in saying, that the opinions of more respect able persons had, to a certain degree, changed since last October; and y e t, even then, their Lordal.ips had felt it to be their duty to act according to their own sentiments, and nut accord ing to popular clamour—to act for the people, and not with them—(Cheers)—and therefore he could not at all understand on what grounds the House was, on the present occasion, to consent to the second reading of the Bill. Whale upon this subject of the change of popular opinion, he would ask, whether no Addresses h ad been presented to the Crown indicative of that change? In fact, it ivete by this time pretty well known by all who moved in society, that the majority of those who possessed property in the country were against the Bill. Whether, how ever, his Majesty had heard the purport of these Addresses, was another question ; that he did not know ; but this he knew—that great pains hail been taken to prevent that information reaching the head of the State. The Noble Earl, however, had told their Lordship that the public agitation had by no means diminished s but he bad as sured them, that if the Bill once passed into a law, it would altogether cease. He (Lord Ellenborough), how ever, believed that the very contrary would be the case; for there was in this measure the settling of no question whatever. The present measure had been compared to the last Bill, and in his estimation it was much worse ; and he thought the worse of it from the fact, that it pro fessed to say that only a certain number of boroughs were disfranchised—that its framers took credit to themselves for having proposed the disfraechisement of only a limited number of boroughs. The effect, however, of that limi tation was, that it restrained that House much more than the former Bill, for that left them opera, while this spe cified the number of boroughs. Here was indisputatily an alteration far which no reason had been assigned —no reason whatever why the arbitrary number of 56 should I .se all their representatives, and 30 be deprived of one halt. He confessed it did appear to him no matter of surpa ise that Noble Lords should find themselves at a loss to assign any principle of justice open which to found such an altera tion. He should now beg their attention to some of the objections which had been tak.-n to the existing cha• racter and quality of our Parliamentary representation, and especially the influence of the boroughs which ti.e framers of the present measure proposed to abolish. They were accused as the sources of every corruption in the State—of long warsof public distress—of commercial difficulty—and of every imaginable vice that could be charged upoir any frame or constitution of Government. Without entering into any very Minute particulars of the grounds upon which the continued representations of t ,, e boroughs, contained in Schedules A and B might be advo cated, he should just beg to notice the class of persons whom they sent into the other House of Parliament. In the first place, they returned forty sons of Peers, only fifteen of whom were returned by their fathers or bro•hers. He recollected how eloquently on the discus-ion of the fernier Bill t'.e Noble Earl behind him—the bent fit of whose support he did rapt expect than night—had de fended the practice of the sons of Peers occupying sea's in the other House of Parliament; and the more the grounds upon which that practice came to be examined the more. stable and excellent must they appear. A large and most important portion of the aristocraerCame there to associate with men of large general information and of talents highly cultivated, who r iised themselves without the aid of here ditary privilege. Let the House only loek to the names of the persons filling up the list of forty Members ; he should mention a few—there were Lord Lowther, Lord Mellon, Lord Stormont, Lord Porchester, and Mr. Wortley. Of the last-mentioned Gentleman, who was not long asso ciated with him in a public office, be was enabled ro speak in the highest terms ; and of the Noble Lords re ferred to he need say nothing, f r they were well known to the public for ability, industry, and every qualification which could fit them to, make able Membtre of the House of Commons ; and .yet lay the new Bill they would be re moved, and the places which sent them declared unworthy and inc.p.able of sending Representatives to Parliament. In that list of 40 there were a certain number which re turned Officers of the Army, or men who, though not now or recently pursuing, the military profession, were nevertheless so much identified with the Army, that they were, in feeling and sentiment, soldiers ; and these includ d sixteen sons of Peers. Amongst the names of the other military men he found Sir Colquhoun Grant, Sir E. Ker rison, Sir Wm. Pringle, and Sir Henry Hardinge; yet every one of those would be removed by the Bill, and with them would go Mr. Attwood, Mr. Sadler, and other dis tinguished Members of that class. The country by such a chan e would lose such Members in the other House as the Ire Attorney and Solicitor General, the Solicitor General for Ireland, Sir Charles Wetherell, Sir John Ni chol!, Dr. Lushington, Mr. Pemberton, Mr. Macauley, and many em nent Members of the Legal Profession ; it would lose too et large majority of those Representatives connected with India. The remaining Members returned by the places to be disfranchised by the new measure in clud,cl twenty-seven gentlemen of large landed property —men, whose character and whose estate in the country paced them above all suspicion ; and there remained thirty-nine persons possessed of property in the Funds, in land, anal otherwise, which gave them a deep interest in all that related to the well-being of the country; and at the head of the whole was the Noble Lord, the Secretary fir Foreign Affairs, who, when rejected by the University of Cambridge, found refuge (a remarkable coincidence) in the very same borough which received Sir Robert Peel when he ceased to represent Oxford. The Constitution, as it at present stood, gave the means of sending repre sentatives into the House of Commons under the circum stances which he had described; but he confessed he knew no means by which that object could be obtained, and sure he was teat the Bill of the Noble Earl opposite would give them no substitute for that of which it deprived them. Trey have been referred to remote periods for precedents to justify the measure which was now so importunely pressed upon their adoption. At this period England had no colonies, no public debt, no cormn.ree, and by a happy capacity of adapting itself to changing circumstances, the Constitution, as it had been :up to the present moment, afforded the means of giving full and adequate representa tion to every one of the trauing, commercial, shipping, and colonial interests, and all others to which the complex state of society in this country gave rise. But the new Constitution which was to be obtained under the Reform Bill not only put an end to all present means of continuing such a species of representation, but shut out all chance of it fur the future. There was no one who looked to the past history of Parlia ment, who could for a moment deny that the practical business of the country was done by the men who sat for those so much calumniated boroughs; and the last gene • rat election afforded a remarkable illustration of the position for which he was contending, for not one of thov to whom the franchise was specially continued had on that occasion returned a man of abilty. But setting aside for the preseut those individual and particular grounds upon which he might defend the old and much calumniated system, he would ask who: the successive Governments, supported by the Memheas returned under that syatetn, had done from 1822 to 1830, the latter year being that in which the present advisers of the Crown came inn office ? In those eight years 15,500,000/. of taxes had bran repealed, arid, by the strict maintenance of public faith, the interest of the debt had been reduced by 4,000,000/. ; 4,500,0001. had been taken off the public expenditure; fur thousand offices were also reduced within that time, and the last Government alone bad taken off more than 1,000,0001. of taxes; again, in the same period, the exports had increased twelve million• and a half, the imports fifteen millions, the coasting trade one million. Those were the figures upon which the case rested ; those were merely the arithmetical portion of the argument; what remained ? The criminal lave bad been revised and undergone important improvements; altera tions of great advantage were introduced into the civil t process; our commercial cede underwent important mod"- fications and were in accordance with the views of the pre sent advisers of the Crown; the state of the currency was placed upon what he, ae well as they, considered to be the only safe basis. Then the corn laws were permanently settled upon a footing, the only permanent _eine, namely, that whi c h i nvo lved a principle of compromise. In many of the a ff a i rs o f life, a compromise afforded the best mode of s e ttl ement ; but had it not been received as axiom us politics, that detiaccretic Governments scarce ever ad mitted a compromise; for however right they might be in principle, they generelly pushed their principles to Al ex treme. But to proceed with the otheiernereaures adopted 'in the much-censored state of the House of Cettnnot s. In the period to which he ref . ..at-% ', t ee Test Act as r.- pealed, the Catholic Beret' Bill was passed; anti civil and religious liberty plan •d on a IT:pis that •could not he ob• jected to even. by - the Nub e Lords opposite - theniselve4. lie would not in‘iat—for it was a fact too obvious celt nu—that the • welfare and prolperity of the people had never been raised to a higher point. .tt niti,•there iore, as unjust as it was un rue to impute to a Parlia went, elected according to tl•e ancient Constitution, those views of which it was accused by the promoters of the present Bill. One of the main grounds taken up by those , Noble Lords was the corrupt influence of the Crown. Hoof did that influence operate at the present moment? At the beginning of the reign of George I. there were 276 Ntembers of that House dependent upon the Crown. At the beginning of the reign of George IL the number was reduced to 256 ; at the beginning of the reige of George lit: to 20t1; And iy , this ,day they were not more than 50. I n th e meanwhi:e the of public opinion had arisen, and the influence of the Press established ; but still the Noble Earl demanded,..±. change, though he must altogether have failed in any at tempt to show what Parliament had done, or ommitted to do, that would have called for such a sweeping altera tion. Did the Noble Earl or his colleagues expect that a Parliament reformed as they looked forward to reforming the anise of Cotninone, would agree to measures to which former Parliaments had refused to assent? Then in such ulterior measures were in contemplation, the promoters of the Bill should come forward and candidly state them. Let them tell the nation what a netarrfied Parliament would agree to at their instance, which Parliament, as ai present constituted, refused to adopt? Did they expect that a tax would be imposed upon the transfer of stock in contravention of repeated Acts of the Legislature, and in violation of all good faith? Did they expect that the ex port of cotton, the production of wines at the Cape, and the Timber trade of Canada, would all be placed upon a new fuming? if those were their objects, they ought to come forward and explicitly say so, and then, and not be fore, their Lordships would know to what purpose they were legislating. Amongst the various complaints against the present system was one, that it caused much of the public distress, and that was a sentiment which he regret ted to think had in some quarters gained ground, fur it was to the utmost degree erroneous. For a long time past the prosperity and the distress of this country depended upon circumstances altogether extraneous, and upon causes which pettier the people nor the Government of this country could control. It had lung been his, impression, and it was one in which be was fully borne out by the concur. rent testimony of many high authorities, that the employ ment or the capital and the labour of this country must depend upon c . rcumstances so aff cling foreign supply and demand, that we could have no control over them. He then could not imagine any more dangerous opinion than that which taught the people to think that their distress was created, or could be prevented or remedied, by the Government for the time being. Were such en opinion to be maintained much longer, it would every day gain ground, and every day its consequence would be becoming mote and more alarming. But if it were untrue, as he thouht himself justified in asserting, that the question of prospet ity or distress depended upon extraneous Cain 11, could any thing be more ins ,ne than to tell the people, not only that that question was affected by the Government, but by the form of the constitution—what would then be the consequence?—why, that the Legislature would be every day called upon to alter the Constitution, and their whole time devoted to the pursuit of au unattainable good. He b eh io o n u . ld of no t r ie i t t o sei t f .oder m . nsi lthad irre bee p n ar n t r i g c e u d la , r the an ly one povi orfitn strongest ra commendations, that it provided an almost uni form franchise; now that struck his mind as one of the greatest objections to the BM. He did not object to the present franchise as being too popular; but he objected to it as excluding totally and completely the poorer classes from any share whatever in the franchise. He should not then stop to discuss in detail the arrangement made to ascertain the value of the tenements out of which the electors were to vote—it was to be ascertained by Bar risters appointed by the Judges, whose bills were to be settled by the Treasury : thus all the odium would rest upon the Judges, who were saddled with the burden of appointing them, and those Barristers would remain open to every itnputstion of undue influence so long as they had to settle their bills with the Treasury; but whether the value of those voters' holdings came to be well or ill ascer tained, there was one thing certain—that the operation of the franchise clause would be to reach a class below the Middle orders, and not to reach the working classes. No man entertained higher n.spect for the middle classes, prci perly so called, than he did; but what be understood by the middle cities were those who had the means of educa tion hut not of idleness—the class from whom they de. rived some of the best and ablest men in soraiety—who were to the state the- sources of virtue and fresh honour ; but that was not the class to which the new Bill extended the franchise, but to the class below them—those with whom the very poorest were continually in hostile con flict—they were the creditors of the very pour—those who daisy appeared against them as plaintiffs in the Courts of ConsCienee ; and the new Bill gave that class the power of legislating for those Whii"Otight specially to be protected from their influence, and of legislating not only for them bit for the real middle dies, and for them (the upper classes). Then the new measure denied to the Church of England the proper influence which it had hitherto exer cised in the affairs of the country. It was well known that in England the vet y lowest and the-very highest comprised a larger portion of those in communion with the Established Church, and it might reckon a very considerable portion shouldof t:o conferred t m he id f d , a le nc c i l l asdes ise w ; ei l e m a t ll t tr ig : c i b l e l gged the House to remember the conferred upon Dissenters, through the se on aml Irish voters. No doubt, under enw t dt u t dis senters. whom fti Thenhcl e ih m e t i e h st w e ehoe S t the present system, a few Presbyterian Members might be returned from Scotland ; but than they were, generally speaking, men of large fortune, and of generous and liberal sentiments : but under the new system they could have nothing to expect but representatives imbued with all that remained of bigotry in that country. The House of Com mons would be returned by the Dissenters here, by the Presbyterians in Scotland, and by the Catholics in Ireland. They were told that they must agree to the present measure, because it came to them supported by the united voice of the House of Commons and the people. If that doctrine were once admitted, they must, in all time coming, suhmit to that species of dictation. Did the pro moters of the measure imagine that they could devise any system of representation which could reflect the exact image of the people, or that if they could, any substantial advan tage would be so attained ? Were such a state of thinge . once established—nay, even under the Bill—it could not fail to be the practice to send every measure of importance in the first place to a committee, and the advisers of the Crown would cease to be responsible; all responsibility would thenceforward rest with the committees, and so would fall one of the most important and valuable princi ples of the British constitution. Government would not then, as now, carefully consider every measure of public po liGih:cfliiiy:,,,k),:ioeidaninygntdh,:aeitteinbinos: Government t t i )a frtointsubringingmight, forward any but those which they believed to be really conducive to the interest of the country, and which would stand the test of disccesiou and of severe examination ; but under the proposed new con stitution, as he would call it, they would not have such motives as heretofore for a careful consideration of public measures, s nee responsibility would rest, not upon them, but upon Committees. Then lie would entreat the House to remember what would be the probable effect. upon what were called Parliamentary oppositions by the power which would thus be throWn into the bands otrenters from 101. to 201. a year. Hitherto the opposition was t c e socist : ),o o af,u, otert n tevt. iiitit u tteis: fe c bt—soaf t l conducted opposition al rA)ffnb,todeo affairs Ist, publicei through other ceeies n obotyric e nutuenow n aausuwil,rhel) i int kuchy t e l )etcsanuasrtaub b ceil sed o rik,vessrae t lautr h es,,rndellidknadana H esnsnondbtl o no4uy, u etnoti ea, I: e s te:l:e e l eed, t qualifier) ,eorcgt, without that honi u i yeeso n ey: ut:eto d ::ixid e kt c p bi aesesigi independent en) o n ::: n d inutpe e c. cerdenpucnntocr:dcirsnefieeettdntniinbu,bs opposition, united by common principles. Hence a race arose edu cated air conduct atilhethp: eisnernotrtutraytiitoign in the history of this country _ a history, ctrhri crisis; r ; n ib eot history ewhich could utde in times past would afford them the best guidance for whether monarchy , e t d h e lessons; e m f o o c r r m a a c no y d s f er pure despot ism, that form of Government was the most to be esteemed which hest enabled . men to serve the country. As it was universally conceded that the British Constitution, in its present form, was above all others ca pable of conferring that advantage, be should unhesitat ing give his negative to the present Bill. The character of British institutions did not in an especial degree afford every facility for the humblest man in society to rise to that exact position to which his intellectual and mural qualifications entitled him. This argument, he was aware, was generally met by the (loci vation, that talent was not .carce ; that there was no difficulty in finding men of ta lent; that one in ten of those you net were men of talent: he was not so fortunate in his walks; but of the men of talent who were to be found, he did not scruple to affitm, that not one in one hundred possessed the useful qualities f men of business ; dot those powers which most capti vated ware, generally speaking, the least useful. Upon the var out grounds, then, whirls he had stated to their L irdslops, he should contend; that as the affairs of tl e 'country Won l• 1 no longer be on:tile:tea upon" the priocipla a which bad hitherto 6ui , fed our councils, it would be in