The Sun. — London, England, 1804-06-07 00:00:00

tion of the Legislature. His Lordship, at the close of his re►narks, referred to the cases of Shoreham and Cricklade, both of which he maintained to be stri6l -in point. He sat down by giving his decided vote for hearing Counsel on the Bill. Lori GRENVILL& followed on the same side, and in a Speech charafterized by his usual ability, sup ported the policy, the necessity, and the expedien. cy of the Bill. He thought that even on the prin. civics laid down by the Noble and Learned Lord, the Petitioners in this case were entitled to have their allegations brought to a fair issue. If these Petitioners were threatened with intimidation by a certain body of powerful individuals, it was proper tat they should be allowed to explain the causes of t.►is intimidation, and to ask of the Legislature the adoption of means for removing it. He was asto. nished that the Noble and Leorned Lord should op. pose a species of Reform which he had often gloried in declaring arose out of the very essence of the British Constitution. This Reform was the power of correeling an existing evil, without adopting any theoretical views of Reform, starred by men who acted on speculation rather than on experience. His - Lordship particularly referred on this point to the cases of Shoreham and Cricklade. The first of these cases was decided on principles precisely similar to those on which the present Bill was founded. The general principle was, that as an evil had existed,and was likely to continue, independent of interference, measures should be adopted to prevent its repetition. While an' existing evil was thus guarded against, a warning was at the same time held out to other Bo roughs,that if similar praaices prevailed, a similar re. suit might be expeCted. In the case ofCrickiade, the execution of this threat of the Legislature became necessary, and it was accordingly infiiCled. So it was with regard to the Bill under their Lordships' consideration, which was, in fact, neither more nor less than the prosecution of the same principle, ap_ plicable to cases of gross Corruption in the exercise of the elenive franchise. With regard to the case of Ilchester, if a Report had been produced by the Committee, and if this Report had been made the ground of a similar measure, he should, on the same grounds which induced him to support the present Bill, have given that measure his hearty support. That no such proceeding had then been instituted, was no sort of argument against the measure now under discussion. He did not see that any set of men would have a right to complain of the hardship of the measure. It was not at all, as described, a Bill of disfranchisement. At present, every housekeeper in Aylesbury had the right of voting at Elections. At present there were, perhaps, four hundred and ne Voters, but if one individual more built a house, and obtained a right to vote, would that injure the sight of the other Voters ? It certainly would not ; and on the same principle, the introduction of the additional Voters proposed by the Bib, would not at all irjure the rights of those now in possession of the right of voting. His Lordship added several other considerations to the same effect, in support of the Bill. Lord AUCKLAND was decidedly for hearing Counsel, as a matter of common justice, to all the parties concerned. Lard HAUXESBURY thought that, as the House of Commons had founded the Bill on a large body of evidence, it was at least but fair that the nature and force of this evidence should be fully consider.- 1-1 '• was therefore adverea the Bill till it had met with due consideration, and till it had been ascertained that circumstances did not imperiously call for this or some similar mea sure, as the only means of reaifying a great evil. He was always friendly to Reform, on the principles which the Bill held forth. They were in the true principles of Constitutional Reform, and afforded the best answer to the theoretical Reformi,ts. Llrel ELLENBOROUGH entered into a dry law argument against the Bill. He thought that no grounds were laid ler it, and that it unnecessarily interfered with the EleCtive Franchise of a number of EleCtors, against whom no charge of criminaii ty was ever attempted to be urged, far less sub etantiated. The LORD CHANCELLOR reinforced the ar gu me nt s used in his former speech. and still more earnestly contended against the expediency of the Bill. Earl ROMNEY, in a short speech, gave his rea , sons for suoporti7, the Bill. After some more conversation, Counsel against the Bill were called to the Bar, and spoke at consi &rabic length. Itntudeiately on the Counsel leaving the Bar, Lord Grtv.sviLLA rose, and moved the second reading of the Bill, deeming it unnecessary to adduce any evidence in support of it more than that which had been taken before the House of Commons, and which now lay on their Lordships' Table. The LORD CHANCELLOR expessed his asto nishment at the Motion of the Noble Lord; declared that he would esteem the adoption of such a measure as most iniquitow, and intimated his resolution, for she sake of the dignity of the House in the eyes of posterity, should the Motion be persisted in, to .nove as an addition--" Although no evidence in suppOrt of the Bill has been adduced." Lord AUCKLAND declared, that he had left the House under the persuasion that no step beyond the hearing of Counsel would take place 'that night ; and he was convinced other Noble Lords 110 done the same. The LORDS CHANCELLOR arid GRENVILLE :nutually explained; when Lord GRENVILLE declared, that it was not his wish ta push the matter precipitately through the House. If, therefore, it could he supposed that any Noble Lord had left the House under the idea that no step would be taken to night, he should ur.ve for the postponement of the Order. Ile shotild ako move that the Witnesses do attend to:morrow, declAting it, however, not to be his intention to •hove for them beifT, cilled in, as he reckoned any farther evidence in support of the Bill unneces dary• The Order was accordingly discharged, and order_ ed to stand for to.morrow ; the Wittresses who had attended to-day were also ordered to attend and it was recommended to the Counsel also to be resent. —Adjoarned„ HOUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, JUNE 6. Mr. DAV 2ES GIDEON took the oaths and his seat for the Borough of Helston in Cornwall, in room of Lord Viscount F/TZHAIt R Certain Accounts, respeeding the Importation and Exportation ( Corn, were presented and ordered to be printed for the use of the Members. SLAVE TRADE. S:r Josue Avis Rso sr presented a Petition from the Planters, Merchants, Annuitants, and others in. terested in the British •West India Colonies, against the Bill now pending before Parliament for the Abo. lition of the Seise Trade. On the question being put, that the Petition lie on the Table till the second reading of the said Bill, and that the Petitioners be then heard by themselves ur Counsei, Mr. WILBERFORCE gave it as his opinion, that there could he no necessity for any particular investigation into the merits of the question, as it had been long a subject of discussion before that House, and as all had already been heard that could possibly be adduced by the different parties interest. ed in this question. The opponents of the measure had been fully heard on a former occasion when it formed the subject of particular inquiry in the year ninety-three. Nothing new, he thought, could be advanced, and it would be therefore unnecessary to lust the time of the House. - Mr. FULLER contended that it would he ex tremely ungenerous to refuse a hearing to those who had no Representatives in that House. The Coun try in the prosperity of which they were so much interested, was not represented in Parliament. To deny them, therefore, the privilege of petitioning, or what was neatly the same, not to listen to their Petitions, would be extremely hard indeed, parti cularly as he was convinced that not a single word that had been said by that Hen. Geotleman the other day was founded on rata. Lord TEMPLE did not think it by any means a good reason for waving the consideration of thi s Pe_ tition, that the subjeet had been formerly under discussion. The discussion alluded to had taken place some years ago, and the circumstances of the Petitioners, as well as of the genera! subject itself, might now be considerably changed. He would move for Counsel being heard on the Petition. Mr. FULLER eXplititiCd. Mr. WILBERFW;CE argued, that no hlernher of that House was more inclined than.he was to respecl the right of Petitioning, but he thought the House would do much better not to decide at present wile_ Cher any Petition should be heard by Counsel, but to wait for some time tin the subject should come ; under farther consideration. Mr. FRANCIS thought the Honourable Gen ; tleman with whom the ohjedion originated, did not wish that they should retuse to hear Counsel on the subjeft, but only that further consideration was ye cessary. He thought besides, according to Parlia mentary usage, that notice should have been previ ously given. The SPEAKER stated, that it had been the custom of the House to order the Counsel to he heard without any previous notice ; but when the Counsel are called in, Gentlemen may (hen have an opportunity to assign their reasons of dissent. Sit J"M. YOUNG suggested, that there was a Petition coming from Liverpool, and that the Hon. ',Jen tleme n ~,;,s o t then o op or isooly of dis_ cussing the principle on which they now seemed divided. The Question was then carried. Lord TEMPLE presented another Petition fr o m Mr. Lyon, Agent for the Island of Jamaica, against the same Bill, which was disposed of in the same manner as the former, after a short explanation from Mr. WILBT,:r.voRcE, stating, that he did not wish to prevent parties from being heard, but that he could not iielp thinking the mode of disposing of these Petitions premature, as the second readin g of the Bill was fixed for to-morrow, and Gentlemen who might be appointed as Counsel could not, in all probability. be prepared. A Message was received from the Lords, announc ing their assent to several private Bills. Lord PORCHEsTFR rose to renew the notice which he had fermerly withdrawn, respeding our East India Settlements. When he had withdrawn this notice, it had been in the expekflation of an a nt e and efficient Administration being speedily formed.— But when he looked to the present Ministry, and saw that more than the one half of them were the very same men whom the other had described as incapa ble of the duties imposed on them, he could not help thinking that his intended Motion was not less ne cessary' than formerly. The SPEAKER here informed the Noble Lord that it was not in order, to accompany a notice, with any argue eots in support of the Motion intended. 4 - 111 that remained, therefore, fir the Noble Lord, was to ftx any day that might be beet suited for his pur pose. The CHANCE:4OIz, of the 14:xceseestsER was of ..,• %noon that the Noble Lord had been so tar in order, that he had not brought forward any argument what ever for the measure he proposed. He thought this day sennight, which had been mentioned by the Noble Lord, would be a very inconvenient day ; a Bill now was pending before the House, that in all probility would occupy its attention during most of nent week. Lord PORcx ESTER then fixed his Motion for Fri. days LORD ADVOCATE OF SCOTLAND. Mr. WHITBRE/11) ro,e, in pursuance of his former notice relative to the conduit of the Lorto ADvocA:E of SCOTLAND. The Hon. Gentleman srated, that some days h a d elap se d s i n c e h e had given this notice, which must have given that Learned Gentlethan time to hear of his intention, and afforded him an opportunity either to be here present himself, of to have employed some of his friends to make an apology. It would have been highly gratifying to him indeed to have seen the Learned - Lord in 'his place; bur at ti ny rate, it wds some satisfadion to him to know that the Noble Lord was apprized of his intention. He w,.oni, therefore, make as free in speaking of Ole Noble Lord as if he were here present. That Noble Lord, from his official situarton, is invested with vcry Elea! puwer4 which n:cessarily require caution man. prudence in their exerciese In the exercise of - th6fe powers, however, he was sorry to understand, that the Learned Lord, so far from exercising delicacy or moderation, discovered a strong propensity to Overstep even the g reat authority with which the law invested him. In the particular instance he was to bring before the House, there could be no question that the Learned Lord had transgressed every bound prescribed either by law or justice.— He had only to appeal to the Learned Gentleman opposite (the ATTORNEY GENERAL) for the im portance of such ostensible situations as he and the Learned Lord occupied, and for the degree of re. sponsibility attached to the discharge of their duties. The situation of the Lotto ADVOCATE of SCOT LAND was still more important, if possible, and more responsible than that of the Learned Gentle. His situation was more important, and the exercise of his powers more necessarily the subjeft of parliamentary jealousy, because responsibility could not so closely follow him in all the details of his aElions. The interference of the House there. fore, became more necessary, that they might in. fiuence Hts MAJESTY to check every abuse of power by dismissing from public trust such as had made a wanton abuse of that power. Such was the objeEt of the Motion he intended to bring forward, and which he meant to follow up by some positive mea. sure. He was not so well acquainted with the Laws of Scotland as some Gentlemen in the House might be. He would not presume to define positively what the limits of the LORD AD_ VcCATE'S power might be, or how far, in every instance, his jurisdiction might extend. But he might safely presume, he thought, that the Loan Anvocn-re can have no right to calumniate the charafter of individuals—that he can have no right to bring odium on any man whom the Law does not condemn—that he has no right to persecute, by the weight of his authority and the influence which his official situation gives him, those whom the Law pronounces innocent—that lie can have no right to arrest or imprison any but in the regular course of Las. He was to slim, however, that the LORD AD oc ATE had been guilty of calumny of the gross est and basest kind, and that he had followed up this calumny by excommunication, as far, at least, as lay in his power. Should this case, therefore, be made cut—should it be found that he has so conduct ed himself, there can be no question that he can he no longer worthy to be entrusted with the office he now holds. He begged the House to attend to the particular circumstances of the Country. The pre sent was riot a time to sport with the feelings of the people, nor to exercise a wanton tyranny where so much zeal and unanimity were necessary. We must keep faith with the Country, and not augment their necessary sacrifices by any wanton cruelties. —The persons who come forward as Volunteers, ought not to he threatened in order to add to their zeal or their coinage. The measures adopted ought to be fait and explicit, and the execution of those MeaSUrt ti conforma )Ie to their original design. In the discussion of [lie Volunteer Bill, many opinions were entertained on different parts of the plan ; but on 00 part of that ' , lan were greater differences of opinion entertained than on the clause relating to contraas between masters and servants. The Right Hot). C a dernan opposite (Mr. PITT), who was not then in power, thought that some alteration should be made in those contuiCts, to facilitate the in crease of Volunteers. For his own part, he, for °tic, di 1 not think that any alteration should be made, and the Clause to that purpose did not pass. The Legislature, after due deliberation, aid think proper to leave unaltered the nature of those contraas, which, if taken away, must have pro. duced very great inconveniencies. The best advo. cares of the Volunteer System will allow, that there are disorders unavoidablyarising from ir,which no re. gulation, can altogether correa. It will not be denied that it gives opportunities for idleness, and that those who are ill.disposcd may take advantage of it to neglett the business of their masters ; and, from a pretence of serving their Country, may take an op portueity of venting their spleen against their masters. ExaCtly such a case as this occurred in Scotland, in BardiThire, to a Mr. Morison ; he does not know whether a farmer or not, but in a situation that required the attentions of a servant. His ser vant, however, contrary to his orders, had attended different drills, and thereby neglected the duties of his situation. He therefore discharged him, in con fermity to the spirit of the Law. The servant, however, thinking to obtain redress, sent a Me morial to the Lotto ADVOCATE, stating that he had been engaged for six guineas of fee: that he had en rolled himself a Volunteer ; and, on the 13th of Cktober, had gone to join his Corps, that were to be in•petied by the Marquis of Huntly, when, on his return, he was surprized at being discharged by his master. The servant, in this Memorial, the Honourable Gentleman stated, confessed that he had entered the Cores w ithout the consent of his master ; but that when he went to the drill, after his work was done, he m-t w . i no interruption. But an instance here occur red in which he had absented himself during the hours of labour, and was, therefore, so severely treatee. We ought not to forget that we have no. thing more here than his information, and that the Lend Advocate had nothing more. Garruw (the name of the servant), after having made this statement, puts this question, " will the Memorialist he autho rized to enter an anion against his said master, and to what extent ?" Let us now see what was the condun of the Lord Advocate. Without applying to the other party, Mr. Morison, who, if any judgment was to he formed, had certainly a right to be heard, his Lordship returns an answer to the Me.. moral, which is certainly fraught with the greatest indiscretion, not to call it worse, and which is preg. nant with the greatest severity to the other party, which he had not heard. He says, that however un. principled and oppressive the conduct of Mr. Morison may have been, the Memorialist has no claim against him. Here his Lordship attaches want of principle and oppression to this man, though he had done nothing contrary to lese, as he himself confesses. Were there no other ground but this, he would think it sufficient to warr a nt rrani the interference of the House. U But the Learned 'N did not safe; it to remain here. Fie t h ought it recessary to address to the Sheriff* Deputy of the County, a Letter, in very par :44;ular. terms. The Hon. Gentleman hest read the Tlefteein separate cTa - ttaes, anaTnane s 0 each. " Unfortunately," begins the Letter' cc provision was ever made in the Volunteer SYsteT'f ° a case of this kind." It was unfortunate, ind' e , u ,'; ° r) Mr. Morison, that there was no specific reg° l3 ` l o ; for then he might have escaped the persecution 1 . 0 which he has been so wantonly exposed. nut tf case falls under their cognizance, a regulation °"9 be found in the Bill they had adopted. He W- 0 o g harpy, therefore, that those claus es relating . c I tl the contraels between masters and servants, 'l; in all appearance would have been Si) OpPreSS lS '' t P' had been thrown out, and that they forme d no r• of the Bill as it now stood. Had tho se cla°,i4s been adopted, it was not difficult to see from Ps single instance, what the oppressive conseq.uenee would have been. After having called ha Izn ; principled and oppressive, he grants that no re drel could be obtained, as he had not transgressed Of law. How could such language, he naked, be r e. conciled, or such condeet be justified ? Is it no eert rain, that a servant may negleet his duty from at : tending drills, as well as from any other cause ? But his conduCt, taken in another point of view, is 111(3 , atrocious. Without condescending to inquire %Olaf; was the conduct of the servant, if he had left his cog/ unfed, if he had left his barns unlocked , or any e.; cessary labour in such a situation as to render h i presence irdispensable, he makes no inquiry whateve!! but immediately, without any refieetion , condole; him guilty. The Honourable Gentlema n then 'tic through the other clauses of the Letter in the sl e strain of animadversion. [The Letter itself wt to found in a subsequent Column.] The Lord Acif °c4 attributed Mr. Morison's conduct to .disaffe °l°l4 ro without haring any proofs of his disloyalty. c oi fr commended to the Sheriff to hold him up to pub" ttntY tempt, to discourage the Gentlemen of the c° A c e associating with him; and if' the French shoulatil" good a landing, to take care that he be that mati l h ei/ t t : imprisoned, and that he should take care th at w ha t ever losses he (Mr. Morison) should sustain, he AO to Mr. F no or c b o e m s, p t e i n le sa s t i i i o er n i . ff T p h e i p s u L te e . tt w e h r he put on record, as a monument of the `its` Nation of Mr. Munson'si condua. Th e Sh ; cf- Clerk at the same time wrote to Mr. I\ 4 °ri scin ,; giving him an account of the Lord opinion, and advising him to settle with G rv a o ir s e,, the servant in question, by some P eeun ' a-- e' conseCilletlC in order to avoid more disagreeabl e The Hon. Gentleman then, after a long and ar g 00 mentative detail, concluded by moving, Trog much of the Public Records of the County of - 3 d, who ordered istsrtlo: as contained the Letter of the Lord AdvAodcvatictiei: dressed to Mr. Forbes, the Sheriff Depute, be f l a re before the House ; as also that ther e be laid berclia the House as much of the Public Records of '„ate County as contained the Letter of the Sheriff DO" to the Sheriff Clerk on the said subject." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHge t he stared, that he had no intention to objet t° O the produCtion of the Papers now moved for. `i n t he contrary, he should be glad to see them beforre the House. It was not now a proper stage °, on ly qestion to enter into its merits; he wo lii " Hoof y, that the different construEtions which th c e d ii Gentleman had put on the expreasione coot° $e the Letter, were more than they could 1,4 3 t• t he begged the House not to be prejudiced froin c the hadstatement be e been the madey t h o a d their heard feelings,, and from the appeal I/1° matter impartially, as a question of the utmos 1. no' portance. He believed the condua of the 4. ear re ft Lord .alluded to, had proceeded from the pu as i motives of public zeal, and not from any r ers o ce but to considerf malice. He considered is as the purest ze{ii, old rating on a strong and ardent mind ; and it remain to be considered how much the 1 4 • ought to he interested in one who has been th e li o ri o "t a form Champion of the Constitution , and vih °l l' b I C given so many proofs of his patriotism an d P n ° 4 ,es spirit. If the Lord Advocate was not present: °!c of who knew him would attribute it to any °l ola 176 his, for there Wn3 not one in Britain that c° 1 0. more ready to appear either in vindication 0 „ c t hin self or of his Country. But, considering otOe happened in Oelober, and that he had been h!' that eg time since that period, it was rather surPr;B-,ght foe this important measure had not been bf°l3,Pr lion* ward sooner ; as it was impossible that t' ll ta i o rod. Gentleman could now attend, on account 01. 1 ; s ee a t fcssional duties in Scotland. He could n ° ,"„ u id the same time that the Lord Advocate I / L i : Re iff -1 s accountable for the conduit of the Sheriff °t Clerk. Their proceedings, it was most P r° were unknown to the Lord Advocate. , , ec ellt Mr. FOX, in a short hut very anima te ' t OC h d replied to the Right Hon. Gentleman who- r a t) , tsl'ob. e g down. Whatever might be the motives - „ g ht Lord, in the conduit he had pursued, he th ° • u , t ifie no better argument could be found in l '' m ust b e. cation eHos w G ill r a ac rd io o u u s r G of o m d c ? ex ci3; har ,K. a til n nedme a ae n nd: ardent mind, his Case , ;riled t he d n p G ate t en t e h ter such as his, be an apology for i"r; i • v oted °° this very House, where we have ofte, n R e ; d the miseries and ex travagancies of the 1 : 1- `, 1 ' `„ t ru' fl afford for outrages (acted lution, what sort of apology will an 3r- T 4 c er4 l l d s° and to every thing sacred in domestic on, eet los life ? That an investigation into this subJ ai a not been made sooner, must he attributed, b s ic h Hon. Gentleman, to the consequences of w weight; pression is not unfrequently the cause. The Or we ighg are afraid to complain, in proportion to the o ne to justice, to cip and injustice of their o ppression. Is it then to% b O 9l , derel, if it was some time before this netarineeet of ness became so public as to become the sobi ig, t liC discussion ? The Letter of the Sheriff's ° er as t ro..• Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had said, w re f o re connected with the Lord Advocate, and t he pc But de, cs ,,, t he ought not to have been introduced. Right Hon. Gentleman forget, that in otanicTocea circumstances of oppression, a ll the conseci must be taken into the account ? One set of °Pr mo re , WO. sion may, even unintentionally, lesd toe itni or & What we at fi rst meant to deter, may after , co n, used to extort money. In forming an estimate duet, we must consider to what proceedings 0' a description may lead. . 0 1 Mr. W HITBREA D explained. ad c rr i The several Motions were th en put, an. in a without a division. bring Mr. FIT4CIIRALD moved for ler,vc to