The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

PETITIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS.I HOUSE OF COMMONS. (Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.) ( Room 22, before Mr. Examiner Smrrn, and Assistant- Examiner FnEr.E.) orrosr.n LIST. 'THE CALEDONIAN AND GLASGOW (PAISLEY AND GREENOCK) RAILWAY COMPANY. Tnis petition was successfully opposed by Mr. Pritt on be half of the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock , and Ayr CompaNny. M GLASGOW, KILARNOCK, AM) ARDROSSA RAILWAY, Amendment Deviations and Branches to Beith, Fenwick, Kilmarnock, Waterside, and West Colliery to the Berskip Mineral Railway, to the Ardrossan Branch of the Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and Ardrossan Railway, and to the Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Railway, and Cumnock and Irvine Branches thereof. Length 26 miles ; estimate 410,000/. The customary formal proofs having been adduced in this case, the further hearing was adjourned till to-morrow. (Room 23, before Mr. Examiner MAY and Mr. Assistant- Examiner GUNNELL. ) ADJOURNED OPPOSED CASES. BRISTOL ND EXETER RAILWAY EXTENSION (CAREDITON TO LAUNCESTON). This opposed case was then resumed. It was strongly op posed by the South-Western interest, and occupied the re mainder of the day. In the course of the inquiry several inportant allegations were sustained, impugning the accu racy of the plans and sections, and showing the levels to he miscalculated. The case was further adjourned. READING, GUILDFORD, AND RETGATF. COMPANY. A general meeting of this company was held yesterday at the London Tavern, at one o'clock. Salomons, Esq., in the chair. The CHatrtnaN stated, that the object of the meeting was to decide . upon the course to be pursued with respect to the negotiation now pendingwith the South-Eastern Railway Com pany. The latter company some time since made a proposi tion to purchase the right to make the Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Company, giving a rental of five and half per cent. on the capital of 600,000/. Much correspondence had arisen upon this proposition, the chief object of which was to secure for the South •Eastern Company the t ight to operate on the ground south of Dorking. This proposition was met by the Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Company by a selies of resolutions, the object of which was to obtain 4 1 / 2 per cent. rental and equal profits afterwards—this to be commuted into a perpetual rent of 3 1 ,:, per cent. on all the capital expended when the line is completed. The meeting hail to decide whether the company should persist in their own demands or allow the proposal of the South-Eastern Company to rule the deed of agreement. Mr. SNIALE explained that the company's proposition, if accepted by the South-Eastern, would act unfairly, inasmuch as it would probably give as much as 8 per cent. to those who had bought their shares at a discount. Mr. MAWDERT said that he would rather take a small but certain return from a valid company, like the South-Eastern Company, than endeavour to obtain 4 1 ,,' ? per cent., and profits beside, when the profits might never be realised. They ought to keep faith with the South-Eastern Company. The CHAIRMAN said that the directors had endeavoured to keep good faith with the South-Eastern Board, although other offers were open to them. A conversation ensued, in which Mr. Mangles, the chair man, and Mr. Mawbert took part, the object of which was to show that the directors had been guilty of no negligence in not having sooner brought the negotiation to a conclu bion. Mr. Mangles observed that the cession of the line b e t w een Dorking and Reigate would greatly impair the value of the line, for it was intended by the South-Western Company to construct a line from London-bridge, to run on the Reading, Guildford, and Reigate line by Wokingham to Reading, and thus make it the chief route of communication to the west of England for the goods and passengers who would come to London-bridge. Mr. KNIGHT thought that the better plan would be to take the offer of the South-Eastern Company. The CHAIRMAN stated that it was owing to the inatten tion of the South-Eastern Company, in the first instance, that the negotiation had not been sooner concluded. The Reading, Guildford, and Reigate Company stood in the pecu liar position of having- the whole of their 40,000 shares re gistered without compulsion in a single instance. Mr. BLAKE thought that the proposition of the directors ought to be accepted or declined by the South-Eastern Com pany, within a certain time, and that this should be put as an ultimatum. The CHAIRMAN stated that all the directors desired was the confidence of the shareholders, and they would carry out the resolution satisfactorily. After some further conversa tion, he put it to the meeting, and while the chew of hands was being taken Mr. MAWIIEP.T rose to move an amendment; which, alter .ranch dilute, was put to the meeting and lost. The original resolution, that the directors be empowered to act apon their own resolutions, was then carried, and the meeting separated. RAILWAY stIAItk—NtARKETS. LIVERPOOL, JANUARY 25. Srocx EXCIIANOR.—The Share Market has shown more firmness to-day, and it Is understood that snme of the brokers had large orders to purchase if the market had shown any further depression. There is no disposition to press sales at present low rates. The sales are —Ambergate, Nottingham, Boston, &C., sA dis.—Blackburn, Clltherue, dis. —Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire, 1 4 IL ex int.—Birmingham and 'Maley, 4 p.-111rinineritarn and Ox- IM•d, 8 p.—Buckinghanishire, ! It (HA.— Eastern Counties. York Ex tension, p.—East Lancashire, New, IFl i p.—Ditto, New Scrip, p.—East Lincolnshire, 1.7; p. ee int.—Glasgow and Greenock, Igo p.—Great Northern (Nos. I to 108,000), ells., ex int.— Huddersfield and Manchester, 214 sod Bradford Union, p.—Leeds and Thirsk, dis. ex int.—Ditto, New, dis.— Ditto, Preference, 1 p.—Leicester and Bedford, !A dis.—Loudon and North-Western, 139!x—Ditto, Quarters, New, 11 p.—London anti York, 144 p. —Manchester-and Leeds, Extens , on, 1 p.—Dtto, halves (late W. P. and 0.), 8 p.—Manchester and Southampton, % dis.— Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincoln, 94—Ditto (late Great Grimsby and Sheffield), 434 dis., ex int.—Ditto (late Sheffield and Lincoln), 1 dis. ox int.—Midland, 120—Ditto, 401. Share., 3' p.—Ditto, New, pi p.-- Newcastle and Carlhde, Quarters, New, 4 p.—North Staf tOrdshire, 2a p.—North-Neste n, !A p.—Scottish Central, 7 p.— Shrewsbury and Chester, New (late North Walos Mineral), 1 . 7. A p. New, 1 ,4 dis. —Shrewsbury anti Birmingham (A), b p Ditto (B), p.— Shropshire Union Railway and Canal, 16s. 3,1. dis.—South-Eastern and Dover, 364—Ditto, No. 2, 1 , 4 p.—Ditto, No. 4, Thirds,3s. 93. p.—West Riding Union, 174 p.—lnttch Rhenish, 3 dis,—Paris and Lyons Constituted, lIA die. 31ANCIIESTER, JANUARY 25. STOCK Exemsmor.—The sales are—Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston, 9-16 dis —Birkenhead, Lancashire, and Cheshire, par—Bir mingham and Oxford Junction, 6 1 4 F.—East Lancashire, I 13-16 N. — Ditto, New (scrip), 1 1-16 p.—Fleetwood, Preston. and West Riding. 14 c. dis.—Glasgow and Dumfries, 1!A p.—Leeds and Thirsk, 3 dis.— Ditto, Preferentials, I 1-16 c. p.—London and North-Western (Man- Manchester, Buxton, Mallock, and Midland, 7.1 i, p.-11ancheiter and Leeds Extension, 15-16 p.— Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincoln shire (Sheffield and Lincolnshire), dis.—Manchester and South ampton, I Is. 34. dis.—North Staffimlshire, p.—North-Western, c. p.—Preston and Wyre, Halves (B), 3-16 p.—Scottish Central, ; p.—Shropshire Union, .15 7 16 dis.-- West Riding Union, 1 3 4 p. LE LDS, 'JANUARY 25, STOCK EXCIIANGE.--lhe sales are—Ambergate, Nottin,ham, and Boston, Ws. till. dis.— Birmingham and Oxford Junction, 85j P. East Lancashire, New, 2% p.— Ditto, New Seri o, 245. p.—East and West Yorkshire, ICs. dis.—Leeds and Thirsk, 2% c. dls.—Ditto, New, Ils. 6d. dis.—Ditto, Preference, 2Ps. p.—Leeds, Wakefield, and Midland, 123. dls.—Leicester and Bedford, 4s. dis.—Malton and Driffield Junction, lbs. p.—Manchester and Leeds, Extension (late Wale., P. awl G.), 5U p.—North British, Thirds, 2 , % p.—Ditto, Quarters (late Car:lsle Branch), 375. p.—Ditto, Extension (scrip), I ts. tid. p.—North Statrordthire, 2% p. —Northern Counties Union, 1!-‘, dis.—North Western, Cs. p.—Shefheld, Rotherham, and Goole, Is. p.—West Riding Union, 3% —Wharftlale 105. dis.— York and Newcastle, Preference, d% P. HULL, JANUARY 25. STocK EXCHANGZ.--The sales are--Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston, 2!4—Blackburn, Darwen, and Bolton, 20s. dis.—Hull and Selby, Halves, 52—Leicester and Bedford, ss. dis. —North British, Extension (scrip), 12s. 9,1„ p.—Ditto, Thirds, 675. 6d. dis.—North- Western, Gs. p. —York and Newcastle, Preference, p. SHEFFIELD, JANUARY 25. STocK Excxvroz.—The sales are—East Lincolnshire, 174 p.— _ . . . _ Leeds and Thirsk, 3 dis.—London and South Coast, 53%-Man chester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, Quarters, No. 1,3% p.—North British Quarters (late Carlisle), l p.—Ditto, Extension (scrip), p.—North Western, 7s. p.— Sheffield, Rotherham, and Goole, p. —West Riding Unlon, li. 7s.—Leeds, IVaketield, and 31Idland, I Is, 64. cils.—South Yorkshire, Doncaster, and Goole, 1 ,4 dls. EDINBURGH, JANUARY 23. STOCK EXCHANGE.— The sales are—Caledonian, New, 48s. 6d.- -Direct Northern, 52s.—Dundee and Arbroath, New, No. 2, 25% ex new —East of Fife, 443.—East Lothian Central, 425. 6d.—Edin burgh and Glasgow, Half Shares, 20—Edinburgh and Northern, 12!4 ex new Ditto, Newport, 5% ex new—Ditto, ditto, New, Hs.— Edinburgh and Perth (New), 45s.—Great North of Scotland, 455. —Great Northern (late Direct Northern), 745. —North British, Quarters, 625. 6d.—Ditto, New Quarters, scrip, 265. 6d.—Ditto, Thirds, 69s.—Scottish Central, 211;—Stirling and Dunfermline, 675. —Strathern Junction, 635.--Direct Bombay and Madras, 3s. 6d. GLASGOW, JANUARY 23. STOCK EXCHANOL—The sales are—Caledonian, New, 15s.—Direct Northern (scrip), 52i. Gd.--East Lothian Central, 42s.—Edinburgh and (Ilas,gow, Quarters, 181.—Edinburgh and Perth, 46s.—Glasgow, Dumfries, and Carlisle, 6!. 45.--Glasgow, Airdrie, and Monkland Junction,s—Kilmaniock and Ayr Direct, 52g.—Manchester and Southampton, 31s. —Midland, Halves, 6 !i—North British, New Quar ters (scrip), 2's.—Pais!ey, Itarrhead, and 'Meet, 54..—Senttisli Central, 221. FATAL ACCIDENT ON TIIE GREAT WESTERN Rati,w All.—On MondY , as the express-train from Exe ter, arriving at Paddington, four o'clock down train a6tte,Z, at 41). 30m., was passing the nthall, the tine of th e driving wheel dew off, and striking ' a ,a s r e t co t ntl-c:aos carriage on th e down-train, broke thetipp er spot two men, and wounding part to pieces, killing on the express-train was also inju re d by the ereboundother*. A l a dy i n t h e the broken wheel. Neither train was thrown of a pa r t o f and the express was not travelling at a bo h v r e o off the rail s , T usual speed. WARD OF PARRINGDON INT .. ITHOUT. CommoN CoUNcit.MEN.—Yesterday a special L EeTioN OF ward-mote was held at the Old Bailey, for the purpose of electing; Councilmen for the ward of Farrimnion Without, the Common previous election having been declared void.' The result ofti pro ceedings, however, was that all the parties who had ' l l: ) ' een at first returned were again elected without opposition. THE GROCERS AND TEA-DEALERS BENEVOLENT PROTECTION SOCIETY. —Yesterday a meeting of this society vas held at the London Tavern, Lishopsgate-street, to elect two pensioners. Mr. John Wyles, treasurer, presided. The report stated that the funded property amounted to 10,600/, and that there are now forty-two pensioners, who were in the receipt of sums varying from 18/. to 44)/. per annum. BOADERY AT BEACON LODGE, THE SEAT OF THE 110 N. GAANTLEY F. BERKELEY, M.P.—lnformation was last night forwarded to the police, that on the night of the 22d, or early on the morning of the 23d instant, an outhouse attached to the premises of the Hon. Grantley F. Berkeley, Beacon Lodge, Hants, was broken into, and the following pro -I.Y stolen therefrom, viz..—Six long-eared Spanish rabbits, t Dayoung game cocks, trimmed ; six bantam hens, and e other birds of value. ' A BElcav benevolent )Z 2NT ECCENTRIC.—The eccentric and and of Knight : b atherine Lee, late of Kensington-house, Diseases of the ch dge, has left to the Hospital for Curing at Old Brompton, 2e4API lately built near her former residence ebarity-schools of St. ' : 111 t.,;" the Charing-cross Hospital, the Bloomsbury, the Nationaja n-the-Fields and St. George, society for the Prevention of Benevolent-_,' Institution, and the each. She has shown a tendeirielty to Animals, 19 guineas wishing her bird to be given to regard for her little pets, might pine with a stranger, and leaves rattached servant, as it SOL ; she is also to have the care of i her an annuity of and to receive 3s. Gd. a week for its suppn f r a t vite spaniel, .our the p ar rot she leaves to a grand - niece, who is to receivefavourite as long as it lives. She has l eft numerous lOl, a year 1 specific and pe cuniary legacies to her ne p hews an d . nieces. To h er god son, Richard Carter, now in America, is to be transmitted a large Bible, with notes, in two volumes, which she hi.'hll. valued ; she has directed several rings to be made by'isii M or timer, of New Bo nd-street, to contain a portion of her . hair, and to be presented to those mentioned in her w ill , and that all the ladies who inquired after her during her ill ness should have gloves sent to them ; she named her un dertaker and the place of interment, her coffin to be of lead, enclos e d i n a strong polished oak one, well nailed, but to have no cloth or other covering. Such of her nephews and grand nephews as should attend at her funeral to be presented with tive guineas each for travelling expenses. She has left some of het freeholds to be divided among her nephews and nieces. The residue of her property, real and personal, she leaves to her niece, Miss Elizabeth V. Carter, who ( with Mr. W. H. Saltwell, of Carlton-chambers), is her executor. Her Per sonal estate was valued at 6,00 W. We are sorry to announce the decease of Ili. Ward, Sao sztavo Aid ITeli'kion ihiPents. THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, 1847. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jan. 25. The LORD CHANCELLOR took hi 3 seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. the Government, to the detriment of private em ployers, and consequently, no doubt, gre t evils were generated from diverting labour from that channel — cultivation of the land from which alone they could expect to derive permanent improvement. The individual employer or proprietor was the one most interested, the one best calculated to employ labour most bene ficially in the country. He would now call attention to the plan of Government. He alluded to the loan at 31- per cent. for twenty-two years to the proprietors of land in Ireland, and they were also to be empowered, if they did not wish to pay the principal, to pay for it six and half per cente or he would be enabled to pay it in any way most conve nient to themselves, and by that means relieve themselves at a trifling cost. It was proposed to have extensive drainage, but it was not intended to interfere with private speculation in these works, for there were a great many cases in which private individuals would be more efficient in carrying out these works. It was proposed that whore it was essential to the proper carrying out of certain works a power should be given to compel other proprietors, who, either through care lessness or other causes, refused to co-operate or to bear their fair share of the incidental cost, to be assessed for the joint expenses. The result of those measures, in his opinion, would be that not one proprietor in Ireland but would be in a condition, if he so chose, to employ a vast amount of labour in a manner profitable to both himself and the labourer, and he did not think so ill of the landed proprietary of Ireland as to imagine that, with these facilities, few indeed but would avail themselves of them immediately, or, at all events, within a very short time, and thus, from one end of the country to the other, give employment to the mass of la bour, for which, in the ordinary modes, there was no call. This measure was one of the most important which it could fall to the lot of her Majesty's Govern ment to bring before their Lordships, and it was one which had long occupied his deep and earnest attention. Pending the beneficial results to be anticipated from these measures, there must ensue much scarcity, and even famine, among those who were infirm and without employment, and the Government proposed that food should be distributed amengst such persons, but it was determined that no person was to receive relief, except those who could not possibly be relieved in the workhouse, and in aiding those persons the establishment of soup kitchens, in the most destitute districts, was considered as the "lost effectual. That relief it was supposed might be paid for by a rate—half to levied on the place itself, and the other half to be supplied by Government. It was to be a temporary measure, and only to cover the intermediate passage from one kind of labour to the other, which would be sure to be attended with more or less misery and destitution, until all those works became connected with individual enterprise.—(Hear.) It was also intended to furnish loans of another de scription. Serious apprehensions were entertained with respect to the ensuing harvest, and from autho rities which he bad before him, he was sorry to say those fears appeared but too well founded. This arose partly from an unaccountable indisposition on the part of the labourers to leave the public works for the farm, and partly from the inability of the small landholders to buy seed. Now the Government proposed to advance loans to the latter, at the rate of 3i per cent., to bo secured upon the crop, and repaid at the end of the present year. The Noble Marquis then read extracts from a letter in support of the assertion as to the danger to be apprehended if immediate and effective means be not taken to aid in the spring planting; and said, the next subject to which he had to call their Lordships' atten tion was, the reclamation of waste lands. On this subject, aware as he was of its importance, still he thought the breadth of land alleged to be reclaimable was rather exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.) But considering the number of persons, who, from indi vidual observation, had noticed the extent of lands lying waste, which were capable of cultivation, it had been thought proper by the Government to introduce a measure, authorising a grant of money to be laid out on the reclamation and improvement of these lands. He admitted that ouch a measure ought to be introduced, and carried out with great caution—(Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham and the Opposition), and especially so, in order to prevent such land when reclaimed giving rise again to the cottier system.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He said it would be for their Lordships to consider, when the subject was before them, whether this evil could be guarded against. The Government proposed to avoid that evil by reclaim lug the land and allotting it not into small but into large allotments, which would be rented under such condi tionsl as would effectually prevent the incurrence of such an evil. Another topic which had caused much discus sion in the country, and been frequently before the attention of Parliament, was emigration. That was a subject which had lately occupied the serious consideration of her Majesty's Govern ment, and he for one wished that some stimulus could be given to the people of those realms on that subject, but he felt the difficulty which impeded it. But he was of opinion that inducements might be offered the emigrant on the other side of the Atlantic, by off:r ing him, when once transported across, a security for subsistenceand employment. The Government had already experimented in this way, having applied a very small sum to the purpose of aiding emigrants when they went out, and the results had been most beneficial, as their Lordships would see from the correspondence which would be laid before them. It was the wish of the Government to increase that small sum, in order that every emigrant when he reached the land of his destina tion should have reached the end of his toil, and that he should have some security for obtaining such a situation and employment as he might desire. He said, perhaps, their Lordships would be surprised to hear the strong disposition which existed in this country and especially in Ireland in relation to emigration. It had been as certained that during the past year 32,000 had landed at Quebec and 970 at St. John's, two-thirds of whom were Irish. Lord STANLEY—The number for last year was s. oo,oes Lord GREY—It was about 110,000. Lord LANSDOWNE rose, and said he was obliged to the Noble Lord for the correction, but the number ee was staeing was a return for the colonies of England. He felt it was the duty of Government to encourage and to aid the emigration of the people. There was one other subject which had occupied the attention and partly the efforts of Government with respect to Ire land. He referred to the Fisheries. He said Govern ment had established on the north coast—the coast of Mayo and the neighbouring counties—three curing sta tions for poor fishermen who were not able to procure the same advantages fur themselves. Government wished to continue these which had been attended with most beneficial effects, and to erect more round the west and south coasts ; and they proposed further granting a small loan to the land lords for the purchase of machinery, boats, and tackle, which loan' would be on the same terms as the others, viz.: at 3i per cent. and repayment. These, ho said, were the measures which Government proposed immediately introducing before the attention of Parlia ment. He was aware that any attempt to make a per manent provision for the poor, was attended with the greatest difficulty, and though be considered that out door relief was rather an unsafe principle to introduce into Ireland, yet he thought there was a class of people to whom this might be extended under certain regula tions; he meant the sick, tho aged, and the infirm. It was also considered that by extending the repayment of the first instalment of the money advanced by Government from next spring to next summer assizes, it would be exceedingly advantageous, and afford those who had m w a e s a notn the e o t o h n e a r b subject s t e o applied for it am pl e t i me to ma k e provision There landlord which h e s w w h o o u l h d a d r m e f provisions r r t t g o k , t g h e e s on their property to sell portions of their property to pay them off. That was the last of the measures which the Government contemplated to introduce. He had thus thought it necessary to put their Lordships fully into possession of the intentions of the Government ; but, much as he expected from them, he only regarded them as auxiliary to individual exertion. The Govern ment could not for the relief and for the restoration of that country make themselves the principals; they might show the greatest anxiety, but itwas only through the power of the proprietors that any hope of future prosperity could be entertained. The nation could assist the suffering and the afflicted; but it must be the vigour of their own constitution, and the vitality of their own body, that they must look to for permanent success and for permanent relief. The arm might be extended to support the tree which was bending its head to the temporary blast, but it was only to the vigour in the roots of the tree and to the vitality which it had in itself that they must look for its permanent restoration, aided for a time by the efforts of a united kingdom; and if they only found a corresponding feeling established o a f de l i c a h b o w a o r e u r l d s , b f e or n o t w h e afforded y f m o r e n a t d d of i n g l a t o . elsewhere—if there were a v i gorous f o ll ow i ng up o f for creating a race o f i n d ependent la b ourer every o ite n re n r u m s m: a b a n e n d r s which hardly now existed in many parts of that country, they would insure the improvement of the people, and he entertained a sanguine hope, without dissembling the rude and the severe trial through which they must pass, that they would see an im proved state of society, and the establishment of peace and prosperity in that country.—(Cheers.) It would be his duty to answer any questions which might arise upon these measures. He had candidly explained them, and be trusted that in a spirit of patriotism and of unanimity as far as could be done, their Lordships would turn their minds to these various important, and, in their nature, most urgent measures.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord concluded by proposing that copies of the corre spondence of the Board of Works and the Commissariat Department in Ireland should be laid upon the table of the House. Lord STANLEY would not trespass on the attention of their Lordships for more than a fe w minutes, for after the able speech of the Noble Marquis, he more than ever adhered to the opinion he had already expressed , that any attempt t o discuss the measure proposed by her Ma jesty's Government would be premature. He thought that the course which had been pursued by her Majesty's Government, or r a th er t h e manner in which .it had been proposed, was very impartial. There was no Member of their Lordships' House who did not feel the magni tude of the evil with which they had to deal. They should also look to the effect of this measure upon Ire land, not only at the present moment, but as a remedy for the evils to which the country in future might be subjected, with a view to restore the proper tone of society in that country, and to ensure a more prosperous condition for the future. He fully concurred with the Noble Marquis in considering the interference of Par liament last session in the Labour Rate Act as most injurious. Tho consequence had been, that by that interference, employment had been turned solely to public instead of private works. It had been stated that eight or nine Government iunctionariee had been appointed to superintend tho employment, and for tito-effWiellt[suPerTili9a of lookiDg 4fter Limo wyrks they had been intrusted with money to employ persons who were not provided with other labour, or who were anxious to obtain such employment. In many cases this had operated most injuriously, and some days ago ho had received a letter from a gentleman in Ireland, stating that under the Act of last year considerable mischief had been effected, and that a heavy expenditure incurred unnecessarily, some of the pay clerks and other officials having disap peared with the money.—(Hear, hear.) He concurred also with the Noble Marquis, that whatever might be the dangers and difficulties at the present moment, that it would be nothing compared to what might be expected to take place if there were an abandonment of agricul ture in Ireland. At the same time, he did not take the same gloomy view of the extent of the evil complained of as the Noble Lord. It did appear that there was a great remissness in the agriculture in Ireland. He would now take the liberty to express his strongest opinion that her Majesty's Govern ment would have done better if they had sacrificed some of their opinions to political economy. He agreed fully with the Noble Marquis, that the pre sent was a question not of money but of food—(Hear, hear)—and provisions and net money should be sup plied by Government. The corn had got into the hands of petty local speculators, by whom it was purchased. Now, that was not a description of persons with whom, in his opinion, Government should not interfere. He thought that there should be depots established throughout the country, in places that were remote or difficult of access, for the sale of corn at fair commer cial prices, and the effect would have been to withdraw the corn that was stored up, and enable the people to obtain it at fair but remumerating prices. He re peated remunerating prices—not famine prices. He had been told that her Majesty's Government had no right to interfere with such, but that night, to his utter astonishment, the Noble Marquis told the House that her Majesty's Government had already done this, and intended to carry this plan still further. It had been stated that there had been established 950 relief com mittees. His Noble Friend had said with respect to the employment of ships, that, what ho (Lord Stanley) had contended for; and that her Majesty's ships of war and war steamers had been employed in carrying corn to the different ports. Now all that was in consistent with the principle of non-interference. On the subject of emigration he entirely concurred with the Noble Marquis, that it was a subject surrounded with difficulties of no ordinary nature, and one with respect to which it would be hard to devise any plan likely to produce a tangible or practical effect on the po pulation. He felt that abuses were likely to arise from the proposed plan of advancing small sums of money to emigrants to British colonies, because many of those who most successfully emigrated had funds of their own, or were going out to meet friends or relatives, and the re sult of the proposed advance would be, that few, if any, would go out on their own resources. With respect to the question of poor-laws—decidedly one of the most important of those under con sideration—he should not long detain their Lordships. The Noble Marquis had laid much stress upon the bene fits likely to accrue from the fact of enabling the land lords to relieve the incumbrances upon their property, by raising money in the way of a loan. Now this would be most advantageous, if there were a simularity of circumstances existing in Ireland to those prevail ing in England ; but, he regretted to say, that after a landlord had expended a sum of money upon the improvement of his tenant's property, he found it utterly impossible to get a due and fair increase of rent for the increased value of the land. He could state from his knowledge that there were many landlords at the present moment in Ireland, who possessed both the means and the ability to improve their properties, but they found it impossible to do so with the slightest pros pect of getting a fair return for their outlay, and there tore thought their Lordships ought not to be too sanguine as to the beneficial effects said to be likely to arise from enabling the landlords to borrow money in the manner, and for the purposes, proposed. There existed in many parts of Ireland a class of tenants holding under old leases and at low rents, who derived all the be-edits from the land, to the total exclusion of the head land lord, and who, for the increase of their own profits, promoted a large and accumulating pauper population upon the land, the head landlord having no control whatever over the mode of tillage, letting, or anything else connected with the management of the prop ert y . It might be said, and was said, that this state of things arose from improvidence. He would grant it. But then they must bear in mind that it was improvidence of a very ancient date. He alluded to these circumstances to show the great difficulty of guarding against what in England would be most easy of consummation, and he hoped her Majesty's Government would, before they threw additional burdens on Irish property, take into consideration the propriety not only of imposing bur dens upon the head landlords, but also upon those per. sons to whom he bad just referred, and who received the whole benefits from the soil, and were the means of creating a surplus and pauper population. He said he would strongly advocate the advancement of capital on indisputable securities, for the purpose of being laid out on remunerative works ; ho meant on railways. Considering the present state of Ireland, and the political insecurity of the country, advances of money could not be mace in a more beneficial mode than this, where remuneration might cer tainly be looked for, and the persons on whose security the advances should be made would superintend , the employment of it, and in a more efficient way than. could be done by the Government. such a measure, if it should be deemed practicable and desirable by her Ma jesty's Government, would more than any other call forth the capital of these railway companies, and at an earlier period than it was likely otherwise to be the case. lie suggested this measure to her Majesty's Govern ment as one most likely to call forth capital into profit able application in Ireland, at a moment when Go vernment was about to withdraw their relief by employ ment of the poor; and what was more, it was less likely to drain off labour from agricultural employments. The New- Lord said that h- areeta ems—. ea.— the measures of the Government, and he might say what ho had already said before, that from the House generally, when the measures came before the House, they would not meet with any captious objections. Lord BROLIG HANI said the Noble Lord who had just sat down had spoken of objections to the measures, for One, wh a t ever m i g ht be his had a s t rong w i s h to know o h p e i ( n r i s o o n rd of ß t r h o e u s g e h m ans ea ) sures, the amount of money comprehended by these measures, the number of millions proposed for the loans, the soup kitchens, and the out-door relief, and also the amount of hii ao (11 loanbtheae been that "iiaas a n ' d o t d l would ed b o e i e(mired, an d t h e i nterest, an d f found? r whether the taxes which o n preceding Governments, heavy enough already, were not to be increased to meet this demand, and even the property-tax itself, whether it too would not be added ? Ile had heard that morn ing that the amount comprised in the Government Bille was 15,000,0 001 . He hoped that his Nobl e Friend would surely give hi m some idea of the amount. He agreed with his Noble Friend that the Government ought not to be corn merchants, agriculturists, or tredere, but he went further, he thought they ought not to become loan contractors. That was a new capacity for a Government, it had generally been a d-btor, but it was to become a creditor now, and would be felt to be the harshest of err ditors. Why, th e Government proposal was to lend money to the Irish landlords at 31 per cent interest ; but as soon as the Irishman heard that it was to be 6i per cent. if the loan was to be sunk, and 3i per cent, if it was not to be sunk, and to continue 33- per cent. for ever and ever ; he was sure no loan would be taken on such terms. n o was afraid that this, like many other measures of the Go vernment, would prove a complete falure, as much so as the crops of last year, or rather as a more complete failure than that, he meant the Labour Rate Act. Ta o Noble Lord went on to state that a friend of his rather than submit to I eying an improvement of his road, such as the Government staff would have made, im posed upon him—rather than have the road unmade, which was the word descriptive of the reality—he asked what would be the expense of the improvement, and on drew out a cheque for the am amount to l ount B and begged they being told that it would amo/ , he immediately would leave his road alone. Such, in fact, was the o p e. w ration of this Act — an Act which was as lumbersomo of overseers working details , as it was inefficient in the general result. whys there was one functionary employed at present in the su p erintendence of the wor ks m fo e r nesvee,ryan3dOyleatboituvrrearss.so necessary 'The sta ff to extend th ew as or i k ra s, that the staff also must be inc reased; for without continual oversight, it was impossible t o Prevent jobbing in I re l an d . On this subject I beg to ask the Governm ent a question. Do they mean to erect a regular staff o f bailiffs in order to c arry ld out this d • ? If they did, rosiest ou cause the design continuance of one of the g evils that Ire land hasever suffered from, and property would be split out into still smaller quantities than it i s now. He mi g ht recu r to the old dist'c h that every rood of land should maintain its man, but in Ireland every half roo d was made to m a i n t a in its man, and th at was the consequence why that the money to be paid now would never satisfy the the money no w t o necessities of the country. It was said that be :sent over wou ld never meet the occasion, and his (Lord Brougham's) impression was that if they sent over 40,000,000 L the same would be the ease. Indeed something like the latter sum had been suggested, and on the suggestion b, (ling made , another worthy individual had immedi atel y said, Why, you have not asked half enou h. They o we us 60,"001." It was said th a t P ar li amentgintended to extend the poor-law to Ireland, and shut the door of the workhouse by granting out-door relief. Why, instead of shutting t h e door they were opening the doo r , an d h ad already discovere d that the poor would do anything rather th an enter it, and if they carried out the system of out-door relief as it seemed was proposed, they would commit one of the 'most fatal mistakes that could pos sibly occur; but he trusted that his Noble Friend had no such unhappy intention. See what the effects already were even to the extent at which out-door re li e f was already administered. Within fi ve days, between the 16th and the 21 s t of thi s present January, as he had learned from an official friend of his, no less thanwho were paupers from Ireland,2,2oo men, - 2,056 women, ad 897 children, making a total of more than 5,200 paupers, had been brought over from that country. And these were not brought, as some gentlemen had ingeniously supposed, in order that the owners of the steam vessels might realise a freight by taking them back again ; but one vessel alone, the Rover , from Sligo, had been paid 75/. in one day, f or bringing over . a freight of paupers. This was, indeed, a growing evil, for, in five days, the detail of those who received casua l re li ef at Liverpoo l, was truly frightf u l. On one day, Monday, the number was 18,095 ; on the next day it was 19,200 ; on Wednesday it was over 19,400; and on Thursday it was 22 095 who received relief in that one parish. Then it was • evident that there was no exception to the sad rule that pestilence followed in the train of famine ; greatest not that the gst exertion was not made by the wealthy and ch • antable who could administer to the wants and neces sities of these 1 Peel' e; he did not mean to say that it was, but the official fri • end of whom he had spoken had taken additional premises f or t h e erect ' a fever hospital. And su c h was Manchester also the cas e with of and Glasgow. They were not a bit better. Let them,extend the poor-law to Ireland, unless they intended to then, It tied been of said pn over the whole the poor popu lation. that Irelvlr l . TX3E for the Inch, be-• to be for seemsd that E ng l an d was the Irish also. but let them have fair play. If Ireland was to be for the kith; lot it keep it s owu pow. Lot them Mike theta' election. But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no chance. He did see that there was likely to be a great advantage for one class of persons—the place hunters—there Wag to be a large staff of that class for superintendents of the public works, superintendents of labourers, farm overseers, superintendents of police, and he did not know how many lisides. Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work or not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one thing—that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was the class of pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have sufficient. Then there was another subject, which was well worthy of consideration, and that was, how was the interest of the millions of these loans to Le paid? If that interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property tax, as well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland. He did not see why the man who had 140/. a year should be exempted from the charge, for the safety and protection which he enjoyed from the State, any more than he. V% ho had 160!. Neither did he see any reason why a line shou!d be drawn in a direst line down the Bristol channel to separate mortgages, for there was a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was removed, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage again. —( Laughter.) He did not mean to make any charges against the Irish landlord which he did not allege also against the English proprietor. When Mr. Pitt gave a loan of 5,000,000/. in 1792, and again for another of 6,000,0001. in 1797, the same principle was adopted on both occasions ' that of making the principal responsibilities and burdens form benefits and advantages. Again, he conceived, that further, the sooner the Ministry removed their measure from the character of a per manent measure, the better. If it were to he made a permanent measure, it was not at all necessary that that should occur this year. They might have a temporary measure now, and wait to see the turn which events would take. Then there was the consideration, also, of the interest due in a year and six months, the interest being secured on the taxation. Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did also Lord Granville in the same year, contradicting the opinions which he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring (now Lord Ashburton), also entertained the same opinion. In the terms of that loan it was expressly stipulated, that no Com missioner, or any Member of Parliament in either House, should receive one farthing of the Exchequer loan, arid he trusted that some such self-denying clause would be inserted in the Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend would not take anything.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Lansdowne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in Europe, and one who did not need such assistance.—(Laughter.) One great advantage would be, to relieve the tenants for life from the trammels in which they were now held, for it might prove of immense benefit to those who were yet unborn. But it was not money but food that the Irish people required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the want of food. They wanted corn, meal, something to eat, which money could not immediately procure. Now, on the west coast of Ireland there was an abundant supply of some of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send nets and tackle to secure the food required by famishing millions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this , fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob tain art abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri tious food that any one could desire. This would save the corn and meal. He was sorry to say, that he was old enough to recollect the scarcity of the year 1793 ; and he thought that there ought to be a legal covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread was placed on the table, and the servants and every one else was debarred from touching it as much as if it had been gold. No one was allowed to touch it, but the master of the family and then he dealt it out in restricted quantities to all around and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost. Some such rule might be adopted now, and it would prove highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit if a restraint were put upon the use of pastry in the consump tion of which a great quantity of flour was used, and still further benefit would accrue if the higher classes who enjoyed luxuries, and had resources to which their poorer neighbours could not attain, would refrain from using bread but use soups, fish, or any other nutriment with vegetables instead. He had taken the liberty to throw out this suggestion, from his recollection of 1800. He could assure their Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial. He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount of supply ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it would be impossible at present to state how much. Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion that the Government should go ransacking all the granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think they should have established depots. But, coming to the immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his, who had visited the scene of some of these appalling statements of distress, and be stated that the greatest suffering did really exist. They should consider the peculiar circumstances of the people of Ireland. There were 3,500 individuals who, during the time they were otherwise unemployed, used to scrape toge ther manure, and by the assistance of this were enabled to drag out a miserable and useless ex istence, but even of that they were now deprived. Ile begged especially the Government would give their attention to the system of squatting. On his own estates he had an instance of the inveterate disposition, for that when he was building a house for one of his tenants, for he found that the tenant had made an arrangement not for pulling down the old tenement, but for having his in it. He (Lord Dysart) was obliged to refuse to have the building completed, unless he would agree to the old building being pulled down. Lord DEVON thought, after what ho had heard from one of their Lordships that night, that the Noble Lord must have been totally neglectful of what had passed under his own eyes ; for any one hearing that Noble Lord, and knowing nothing of Irish legislation, would have thought that the British Government fur the first time had begun to legislate, and, moreover, had all at once made a demand for a loan for Irish purposes. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, spoke the feelings of every honest landlord when he admitted the obligation which rested on lauded pro perty to mitigate the wants of the poor. But the diffi culty weighing upon the subject was, that the landlord did not always represent the land, and then if he did not have the means of meeting the obligations which fell upon him as a landlord, of course he could not be ex pected to do it. But so far from the proposal of the Government being novel or strange, he recollected that as far back as the first Labour-rate Act for Ireland, the reeee-----* et" that day advanced money for the " iru provernent, celtivation, and drainage, and oilier ois, a.. that day hadand he m ids(r (Lord art rd D advance Devon) 18a of sorry money that was improvement of lands." Such were the words in which this Ge)o.ertnhtmheeenNt Irish o landlords;e l it; h o Lord who had sp o k e n on th e sub ject had not exercised more industry in relation to the subject—the same industry whi c h h e was accus tomed to show on other subjects. The N o bl e L or d, i n hi s observations had spoken of the class e s w h o wou ld b e affected by the failure of the potato cro p ; b u t h e mus t tell him that all classes were affected by it m o r e or less. The lower classes scarcely ever sa w money ; 110 between the farmer and the lower classes money hardly ever passed. The farmer in Ireland had a great aversion to bringing out money to pay for labour, for he knew not the value to him of improvements on his farm, or of having his fields well cultivated ; and, therefore he hardly ever employed the labourer at all. Moreover, speaking of this subject, and the total neglect of cultiva tion, he knew some farmers who had got money for their last year's crops, and they had actually deposited that money in the savings banks, and then thrown themselves for employment on the public works. He said he had heard much abuse heaped during the discussion that night, on the Labour rate Act of last session; for his part he could not join in it; that Act was passed at a time of emergency and under peculiar circumstances. He said he was not able to be present at the discussion of that measure last year, but he did not find by the public records, that there was much discus sion on the subject, or that there was any great opposi tion, or that those who now abused it fortevil results had made any opposition to its passing --(Hear, hear.) What, he asked, was then the position of Irish land lords? Many persons in that country made a general demand for employment; for at that time the want of food was not so much felt as the want of employment to enable them to buy it with.—(Hear, hear.) At that time there were the two Drainage Acts, the Agricultural as well as the Public Drainage Act was in operation, but yet beyond these means something more was thought necessary, and therefore the Labour rate Act was introduced, and passed, to give employ ment to the necessitous. They had heard that Act de scribed as useless and positively mischievous. He did not agree with such a condemnation of it ; the unem ployed had gained the means of a livelihood engaged in the construction of public roads, and he believed that those employed as overseers had not selected even a hundred perches that would be useless; nor would they, he was sure, make such a selection. He had a letter in his hand which he had received from a gentleman in Ireland, and in that letter the writer attributed the tranquillity of the people in his district to having had the opportunity of employing the people at an early part of the season on the public works. Such had been one of the effects of this much- abused Labour-rateAct. It had been said generally in some companies, why could not the landlords themselves employ the people on reproductive works—for example, railway's, and such like—without any aid from Government. He asked, what was the position of the Irish landlord ? But he would not go into the difficulty of the position of an Irish landlord on that occasion. This must be obvious, that if the Labour-rate Act had not been passed at the time it was, the destitution and distress which would have ensued must have been vast—greatly more aggravated than the existing evils. He begged to make one suggestion to the Government. He said, it was a question with many how far a person might be able to protect himself against further increased taxation. The Government proposal was that if any one would not take a loan to be employed on reproductive works, then he must be subjected to the taxes imposed upon the electoral division. But he (Lord Devon) wished that a division was made which was more select. It had been contended by some that if they employed the people on their own town-land, they ought to be free from further taxation. That was not the question, for that was really giving a premium to the man who had cleared his town-land. But his proposition was this—the taxes imposed by Government on an elec toral division would amount to so much ; he wished , if he, fur instance, and two more, wished to take a loan or give employm en t i n proportion to the number of acres they possessed in the electoral division, that they to the subject should be free from further taxation. As attention of the of waste lands, which had occupied the _ 0 f _ Government and their Lordships's House, he was • •of the loan to this purpose opinion that the application would be more profitable and more use f u lly made than to many other purposes, and tha t, too, no wills a view t fur of recovering them for the location of cottiers, but would be allotting them out into large farms, which this country aud for ad vantageously cultivated both for d the advancement Ireland. A Noble Lord had suggeste a mode vihich of money upon railway projects, compared with might be good or not, buts waste lands as the other, the reclamation of good remuneration, he offering safe security and decidedly preferred the last. He approved generally e Government, which had of the measures proposed by th this merit among others that they 1 h proposed ieh to meet the ;veuld Wild 13 evils of serious method s, all of ; stimulus t o labour give a and employment. But, one among the others deserved the attention a their Ltord- ships, he meant the method of getting rid of the re dundant population by means of emigration. He thought that any assistance from the Government before the emigrant left this country would certainly be attended with great abuse, but any assistance on the other side of the Atlantic, when the emigrant arrived there, he was sure would prove moot beneficial. He thought were Government determined in rendering that assistance in the land of emigration, that the Irish landlords uniting together would make it more like colonisation than emigration, by gathering together different classes of the population, so that on the other side of the Atlantic each individual would most likely find a sphere at once to suit their energies and their ablilities. Much had been said elsewhere of a poor-law for Ireland ; he believed there was a difficulty connscted with the subject; but he was of opinion that whether it ought to be the English poor-law or not, the Irish landlords must be prepared to receive a poor • law sooner or later. He was still sanguine enough to believe that they would weather the storm, and intro- duce an improved state of things in the country, from the experience of the present calamity. The Earl of RODEN was persuaded that the mea• sures introduced would tend to produce considerable benefit. He denied that the Labour-rate Act of last session was productive of any good. The works con structed under its provisions were entirely uselesA, and it was the cause besides of withdrawing the labourers from the cultivation of the soil. It was well known that in Ireland the labourers preferred to take employ ment in the public works, even when the remuneration they received was less than they could have obtained from the farmers ; and on this account he considered that the greatest possible circumspection should have been exercised in affording employment. He was sure the measures proposed would be received as boons by Ireland, and he should, therefore, give them his sup- port. The Earl FITZ WILLIAM was sorry that the Noble Lord, who was so discursive in his speeches, and who generally spoke de omnibus rebus et quibusdam (this, was not in his place on that occasion. lle regretted that his Noble Friend was not present, as he (Lord Fitzwilliam) had pleasure in bearing his testimony, to the excellence of a recommendation made at the close of that Noble Lord's speech, in which he recommended that they should endeavour to induce the people of this country to abstain as much as possible from the con sumption of farinaceous food. With respect to what had fallen from his Noble Friend behind him (Lord Devon) respecting the Labour -rate Act, he (Earl Fitz william) had to observe, that although that measure did not work in the way in which it could have been wished, still it had effected much .good, and be would ask those Noble Lords who made too strong grounds of objection to it, in what condition would the country have been in if that Act had not passed? That measure, he considered, was a test for the landlords of Ireland ; for if they did not employ their destitute labourers on their own properties, this Act made it compulsory to afford them employment on the public roads, and ho there fore denied that it was a positive evil. He believed that in a general point of view the Act, though not providing for works of a useful nature, still was of great benefit, and it ap peared to him very evident that it was a means of re• lieving a very considerable portion of the distress. With respect to the measures opened this evening by the Noble Marquis on the Treasury bench, he begged to say that they did as much credit to the wisdom of her Majesty's Government as they would, ho was sure, prove efficient to meet the emergency for which they were intended. There were some parts of them to which exception might bo taken, but he sincerely believed that to some extent they would grapple with the evils they were intended to meet. He must now say a word for the landlords of Ireland ; and he would say with respect them, that if the whole responsibility and duty of alle viating the distresses of the people of Ireland, were to be cast on one class, and that class the landlords, ho would say Parliament and Government would do a great injustice to that class. He would ask, why put it on that class alone ? Were there no persons there possessed of wealth ? Were there no persons in Ireland but the landlords to be engaged in that work ? He did not think that such a course was ajust one, and he would go further and say, that it should not be cast on Ireland alone. Ho would ask why Ireland was in such a condition ? He would ask why Ireland was as it is? He would ask wealthy London—he would ask England? There could be but one answer. It was the original tyranny of England which produced it. lie said it was England which produced it, and he had no hesitation in saying that England should relieve it. He called upon their Lordships to relieve them. If 22,000 paupers were relieved by the rate-payers of Liver pool in one day, what an awful disclosure did it make of the calamity which prevailed, and of the necessity which existed for alleviating it. With regard to the reclamation of waste land, that was, in his opinion, the kind of work precisely from is hich they ought most cautiously to abstain from all interference. He very much feared that such an under taking on the part of Government would not be pro ductive of the anticipated benefit, as he believed - that Government were not the parties who could most effec tively carry out such a measure. He thought the greatest possible difficulty would ensue if they adopted this measure, and he took that opportunity of inti mating to them his apprehensions regarding it. He had another view to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention before he sat down. It might be an eidolum in his own mind, but he thought that the entire system of railway management should be in the hands of the Government. Sure he was, however, that in Ireland, if Government would undertake the construction of rail ways such a course would bo of the greatest possible ad vantage. If they did undertake, the construction of railways, a better system of railways would be intro duced, than if the conflicting claims, views, and interests of private parties were interwoven with them, and there would be besides a more beneficial effect upon the em ployment of labour. It was by the operation of such a system of railway construction that they could hope to change the character, position, and location of the rural r a r atataas v 4 assiaaa, ..sa is was fnr this reason that he most earnestly directed their Lordships' attention to the subject. The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL said he was not at that late period of the night going to test their Lord ship's patience by entering in detail into the history of Ireland—(A laugh)—but one thing that he should infer from this history was, that ever since Ireland had been under the yoke of England—at all events up to the time of the union—the influence of the former country had been exerted to crush the trade and commerce of Ireland. The truth of this assertion was shown by the provisions of the Act of the 6th of George 1., the obnoxious influence of which was not repealed until the middle of the reign of George 111 He had been informed, and in fact had seen in one instance, that where a few old cabbage leaves were thrown into the mud they were eagerly seized by the starving wretches who were loitering about. It was a fact that six out of eight labourers in Ireland were in a state of destitution, and was it possible for the Irish proprietors to support that mass of misery? They could not. According to the valuation of Mr. Griffiths, the rental of Ireland was 12,715,0001. per annum, and was now about 13,000,000/. per annum in round numbers. The amount of bonds, mortgages, &c., on landed pro perty in Ireland, was about eight years' purchase, or 100,000,0001., and that at 15 per cent. made 5,000,000/., and the law expenses and other incidental charges, besides children's fortunes in marriage settlements, would snake, beside a total including the interest, 10,415,000/., leaving the balance of 13,000,000/. for the support of all this distress. Was it possible, with less than three mil lions per annum, to support a starving population and themselves also ? The average cost of maintaining a pauper was ls. 6d. per week, and that, taking the popu lation of Ireland— at least all the poor—would give 12,000,000/. per annum, to be paid out of less than three millions per annum. The landlords were also placed in a very bad position in consequence of the liability of the tenants to pay up their rents ; and therefore it would be only an act of justice to prevent the fore closure of the mortgages for a certain term—for a term of three years—so as to enable them to have some chance of bettering themselves.— (Hear, hear.) The present system of letting land was such, that a farm which forty years ago was in the possession of one person, was now divided among forty, and in many cases no rent whatever could be obtained. The fourth of the produce of the land was that which ought to go for rent, but it seldom happened that they realised so much. The people of Ireland married young, and got large families, and this was the cause of the super abundant population of that country. There were 690,000 some odd hundred farms in Ireland; of these, 310,000 were under five acres in extent, 152,000 be tween five and ten acres, 79,000 not exceeding thirty acres, and but 47,000 exceeded the latter extent. Such was the minute divisions of farms which had taken place. He was confident that if something was not done this year, in finding seed potatoes and oats, there would be no crop next year, and matters would be worse than they were at present. The Government ought to take this question into its most serious consideration. Having stated thus much, he would reserve w hat further be had to say till a future occasion. The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not intend say ing much now, as a future opportunity would be given of discussing,the question. Still he had a remark or two to make on the address of the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne). The Noble Marquis said the Government intended to advance sums of money, as loans to the landlords to improve their estates, but he (the Marquis of Westmeath) did not think many of them could take advantage of that, unless different arrangements wore made respecting its application. At present the intention of the best disposed landowner could be defeated by any litigious person. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would bear him out in saying, that if an injunction were applied for to restrain waste land, it would at once be granted, but in many instances the suing out of an injunction would eat up the fee simple of an estate. He was before Lord Devon's Commission in 1844, and ho stated there that if a new mode of occupation was not struck out by the law, the whole country would, in a period of less than five years, be falling back on the State to feed them. He considered that if his suggestions had been then attended to, the calamities which they had been subjected to would not have had such frightful results. He had held a conference with some of the legal authorities upon the subject. There were present the Lord Chancellor, Sir E. Sugden, Judge Jackson, and Mr. Blackburne ; the latter suggested that the writ of injunction should be reduced to merely a nominal expense ; they all agreed with him, and he was sure no one could prove that he was in the wrong ; but Mr. Blackburne was made Master of the Rolls, and there the matter ended.— (Laughter.) He thanked the House for their attention, but he could not refrain from saying as much as he did. Earl GREY said that ho was sorry to prolong this discn:•sion, and he m)uld only do so for a short time, mere c:sl),:eitilly at that hour, when thu House had been reduced to such a small number; but as some remarks had bowl nude in the , course of she debate to which POOR LAW. The Earl of STRADBROKE presented a petition from a place in Suffolk praying for an alteration in the law of settlement. The Duke of BUCCLEITCH presented a petition from the poor-law guardians of Leeds, in Yorkshire, praying for an alteration in the Poor Removal Act passed last session. SUGAR AND MOLASSES. The Earl of STRADBROKE presented a petition from the brewers of Bury St. Edmund's in favour of the measure for the admission of sugar and molasses into breweries. IRELAND. Lord MONTE AGLE presented a petition signed by nine Peers of Ireland, praying their Lordships to ►ake into consideration the state of Ireland. COHN•LAWS AND NAVIGATION SUSPENSION BILLS. The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second reading of the Corn-laws and Navigation Suspension Bills. The Noble Lord entered into a brief statement of the causes which led her Majesty's Government to introduce these measures. Great distress prevailed throughout the world, and the prices everywhere were so much on an equality, that the throwing off the 4s. duty which remained on the importation of forei g n corn was a measure which the circumstances of the ge neral famine, and the great emergency which had arisen in Ireland, rendered necessary. He deprecated the idea that the duty would go into the pockets of the dealers in corn ; but, even allowing that some portion of it did go in that manner, it did not furnish a sufficient reason why they should not try to alleviate the distress by endeavouring to enlarge the supplies. With respect to the navigation laws, he would trouble their Lordships with a few observations. Vessels arrived with a large quantity of grain at Marseilles. The Americans were taking up all the ships they could procure, and the consequence was the freight was considerably affected. They did not apprehend any great advantage from the removal of these laws, but they would have the satisfaction of that they had done all in their power to miti gate tke evils that at present existed. Lord BROUGHAM would not, under the circum stances, make further objection. The Marquis of SALISBURY agreed with the Noble Lord opposite. The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL said, as these mea -1 sures were not to be permanent, he should decidedly give them his support. The Bills then went through Committee, and were read a third time and passed. STATE OF IRELAND. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he now rose for the purpose of submitting to their Lordships the motion of which he had given notice on a former occa sion, and in doing so he thought he should be wanting in respect both for their Lordships and of consideration for the unfortunate country itself, if he were not to lay before their Lordships a full statement of the facts of the case. The Noble Lord then proceeded to comment upon the magnitude of the calamity which had befallen Ireland, and said he should read to their Lordships a calculation which would show the immense loss sustained this year in Ireland. Now, taking the valuation of each acre of potatoes at 10/., the total loss shown to have been sustained in Ireland by the late visitation amounted to 11,350,000/., while it was shown with equal clearness in the oat crop, the loss amounted to 4,660,000/., making a total deficit in the ordinary supply of food to the amount of about 16,000,0001. sterling. 'I he conduct of the landlords of Ireland had formed the subject of varied :ind strong opinions, but although exceptions might be taken to some, yet, within the last 10 years, there were others who had left no means untried to ameliorate the condition of the country. Fault had been found with them for allowing the popu lation to be dependent upon such an uncertain and low description of food as potatoes ; but he thought this was not the most opportune time to discuss that question. It was as little appropriate as finding fault after a calamitous fire with the sufferers, because their building was not erected with marble or Portland stone. If they had not been able by their own effort to ward , off so great a calamity, it was equally true that no Government could prevent it. In considering this, the nature of this question ought never to be forgotten, that it was not a question of money, but one of food—food for a nation, which, whatever system might be adopted for its distribution, could never hive been created by any Government, yet that was just the existing necessity. Were it a question of money, he was prepared to say that there was no sum of money which the Government would not feel it their duty to propose to Parliament to give for the extinction—if by such means it could be extinguished—of so great an evil. But if the Govern ment hail applied 10,000,000/. to such a purpose, would it have been adequate? If ten millions of money had been spent in the way proposed by those who held this argument, the effect would have been, that, whatever might have been the price of corn at the time, it would have risen, until it would have been found that, not 10,000,0001., but 20,000,000/., and next, not 20,000,0001. but 40,000,0001, would be necessary ; because, the mo ment the action of the Government was felt in the markets of this country, or of Europe gene rally, they would come into the market known to be the most powerful purchasers, and the effect of it would be, that no other pur chasers would be able to contend against them. In fact, Government was the worst agriculturist and the worst merchant and therefore increased obstacles always lay in its way in the case of meeting such an emergency. The Noble Lord said he would refer their Lordships shortly to the measures which had been adopted by the Government at the beginning of last year, before speaking of mea sores which were pow to be proposed to mitigate the present evil. The Government at that trine, tes Labour • rate Act was passed, did not anticipate so great a calamity as that which had fallen upon Ireland, and therefore the measures they had proposed were merely temporary, hoping they might have been able thereby to bridge over the difficulty into another year. The prin ciple of that Act was to unite profitable employment and poor relief, an object which was not by any means easy to be obtained. It was contemplated at that time to employ the poor only on work, which would prove to be permanently useful, and thi s was e ff ec t e d t o a cer tain extent, and so far the result was beneficial. But a panic was stirred in the popular mind, fears and dread of the impending calamity grew mere pressing, and from that time the beneficial employment of the people failed. The panic that resulted when the extent of the distress became fully known was such that the people were reduced to a state of recklessness and de ; spate. Some idea of the extent of the machinery em ployed in administering relief may be formed from the following statement :—There were employed in carry : ing out the provisions of the Labour-rate Act, 38 5 engineers and surveyors, 2,832 cheque-clerks, 6,894 overseers, 132 assistant-clerks, and 495 pay-clerks, making between eight and nine thousand individuals. He would ask them it, with such an immense number of persons, it was possible to exclude a great amount of abuse from the operation of that law ?—(Hear, hear). With respect to the Board of Works itself, he thought they should speak with the greatest respect, as he believed they had given the most undoubted proof of their efficiency. This much, however, could not be said of those whom they had occasion to employ ; but the emergency which arose put it out of their power to act otherwise. The effect of these operations was to create a bounty upon indolence—a means of enabling the idle population to take advantage of the relief in tended for the poor. By thus offering a premium upon idleness the working classes were taken from their habitual pursuits ; thus were the very worst passions called forth and stimulated to the highest activity. " Et doles insidheque et amor sceleratus habendi." To a fearful extent were those sources of evil augmented. Many were there amongst the people of Ireland who were not exposed to the degree of want which had been somewhat inconsiderately predicated of the whole popu lation ; those men quitted their own possessions for the purpose and with the intention of getting employment from the State in a manner neither advantageous to them selves nor the country. He had now briefly stated what were the vices of the system, and the motives which influenced Government in advising those measures. He did not feel surprised that applications were made that the Government advances should be applied for private purposes. They had concurred in the funds being applied in that manner, and he was therefore gratified to say that a very great amount of relief had been given by Mr. Labouchere's letter, which act ho trusted would be legalised by their Lordships. There were 950 relief committees established over the tt e i l e i e G f "i n trY , many of whi c h h a d t o some ex t en t rece i ve d r vessels, overnm o f r v ° e m r nm t heen t °e i n n t. refe ß r l e u n e c h e h to ad w l h ie ie e h n said h about to observe th a t t h e Ad m i ralty could not interfere with wished the course . of foreign trade, b u t w i t h regard to the distribution of food, their efforts had been attended with the greatest employedsuccess. There had hmadanbneeern, and4o of before her Majesty's awee elapsed k vessels there would be five more. Lord MOUNTCASIIEL—WiII the Noble Lord have the goodness to state the amount of food which has been distributed in Ireland? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The Noble Lord must see that his question was not relevant to the state ment he was then making, but he would refer to that on another occasion. The amount of tonnage of the vessels thus employed was 28,232 tons, and the steam-vessels employed were 8,3.73 horse-power. lie had also to state, though the details might appear insig nificant, that there had been no means omitted to meet the evil, and there heel been every endeavour made t') establish soup-kitchens, and means had been placed for that purpose at the command of her Ma jesty's officers.—(Hear, hear.) All that had been done, and it formed a great deal beyond what could reasorrably have been expected; and, having now gone through all that had been done, he would proceed to state what they looked to for the future. To continue on the present extended scale the whole of the works that had been commenced in Ireland, and to add to their number the works th at h ad been projected in that country, would be not only impracticable and unwise, but would be, at teuded with the most ruinous consequences. To :adopt such a course would be at once to deter the people from pursuing their usual work, and to teach them to depend upon the Government fur support. He bekieved that those who were most competent to cultivate the, soil would no longer cultivate it, but would greatly ptvAer to receive the Government dole. During the recent operations of the Board of Works task-work had been resorted to most properly, and with great success. That led to the advantage of getting more work done, but, even with all its benefits, it was not free from some drawbacks; it was not unattended with some disadvantages ; and the best workmen were monopolised by the system adoptec/ 1,7 be felt it imperative to reply, he trusted they would allow him their attention for the few moments be would trespass upon their indulgence. He alluded to what was very improperly called the Labour-rate Act. He thought that a great majority of Noble Lords had prce nouncd the strongest sentence of condemnation on the Act, and certainly, by the last of these Noble Lords the impression might have been conveyed of a Irate censure on her Majesty's Government for want ofeota mon foresight and providence in this matter. Now ho could not help thinking that if they looked to the period when this Act was passed, they would come to the conclusion that the implied cens ure on her Majestys Government was undeserved. T he , Noble and Learned Lord said that this Act was pass ed in a great hurry after the 15th August, and he conclud ed that the advanced period of the session was proof suffi cient that the measure had been ill-digested. Tha t measure was a measure authorising presentment Of public works precisely of the same nature as the pre vious Act. Half the money was to be advanced from local sources, and half from the British Treasury. This was brought in last January, and large use was made of these presentments for public works, and upwards of 1,300,000/.was given for these works. So great were these works felt to be of advantage, that great complaints were made from districts where those works were not begun. But this was a misapplication of the fund, for the money was granted for the relief of distress, and for relief of distress alone, and not for public works at all ; and great abuses were com mitted in the employment of persons who ought never to have been put upon these works at all Yet notwithstanding these abuses the object was fully attained, and the people were so relieved that they were better off in the summer of last year. There was the testimony of the Catholic clergy that such was the cases and there was more money paid into the savings' banks than for years betore. He wus credibly informed, that up to the middle of August the prospects of the potato crop were of the brightest character, but all at once the blight seemed to come over the whole of the crop. Was it, then, unreasonable that her Majesty's Government should pass a measure to meet the evil? They did so. They renewed the measure of the previous year, but they obviated the evil which had formerly bees endured. It was found that the abuse of the presentments for public works had been oeea sioned by the desire to obtain roads where they were wanted. The delay in the consideration of the rues - sures for Ireland, by the protracted debates on the com- • merehil policy of the country, threw these measures late, but they were passed, and those abuses were ob viated. It should be recollected, that the great object of this Bill was not the formation of public works, but ' the relief of distress. This was an important conside ration, and ought to kept carefully in view. Let it be recollected how relief was obtained for distress in Eng land when it occurred in any of our great town& Why, when anything of this kind occurred in Norwich, Nottingham, Sheffield, or Manchester, subscription s were raised, and the amount collected was distributed through the agency of a committee ; and, doubt less, in some instances, unworthy objects obtained the relief. Just something of this kind had occurred in the Bill of last year. Abuses had unquestionably bean committed, but he contended that the abuse was not to be ascribed to the Bill, but to the way in which it bad been carried out. It would, however, be a painful thing to go into these details, and happily it was not necessary But if any one were to be charged with the evils that had occurred, undoubtedly the Noble Lord the Secre tary for Ireland was responsible for the mischief. Still, however, he must again insist to their Lordships tha t the object of that Bill was not the construe' tion of public works, but the relief of the general distress. It was true that the Bill bad failed, but whose fault W 53 it? Whose business was it to see that none others but those who were destitute were employed on these works? Why, it was the duty of those who had the managemen4 and resided in the districts where the works were going on. When similar works were being carried on in N . °"' tingham and other large towns, no men were employed on them who could find e mploynie e a elsewhere. But what had been the case in Ireland' Why, men who were engaged in improving tb: land gave up that employment, and were allowed to g,,r and work on public works, increasing the amoun t ° e distress, and diminishing the supply of food for 'P., people. It was necessary that the House and the countr2 t ' should know the truth upon these matters. In Mg' s . A and September last there was an universal cry and P re sti , sure upon the Government to commence works. e,ty, particular case from West Corinne, there came a dert'sor tion to the Government, who declared that the necessitytni undertaking work in that county was urgent and eo n, not possibly be postponed, and yet, by the following Prot there came accounts from that district saying that t. o , • were growing in that neighbourhood, an unusually ;la crop of corn, which was suffering from the wa e di fo. bands to cut it.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted the whe y culties the Irish gentry had had to contend with• ill had not the advantage of the middle class of this cell to tell who were the really destitute, but still, it l ig measure failed through deficient machinery for earl oo s- it out, it was not fair to lay:all the blame at this was of the Government.—(Hear, bear, and c heers.) , his firm conviction that had the Government reeervi; proper co-operation of those whose duty it vrsa °J a il if the measure would have succeeded, more 891 : s ed n° llB works had not been unnecessarily presentetear, bear.) but really destitute had been employed.--( Dr i e t o rs of It had succeeded in Scotland, where the Pr e .. s imilar land had borrowed large sums of money und er , n f t heir powers,which they had applied to the improveme n. - _ Be d estates, and the result was, the population of the distres districts had been well supplied with food and eroploy.r neu 4 It e thought that when the House was in possession v the papers intended to be laid upon the table of their Lordships' House, they would be of opinion that th ° Government had done all that could possibly be V!: " petted of them to do under the circumstances in wl3 l l they were placed. It was the duty of the. Governor. not to have opened the depots until the latest po ss period—a considerable time was to elapse next harvest could be got in. The amount of ~ ,gl .llll3. ;e i r all kinds, entered for home consumption in l'u e „ e 'ents 1040, exueveed 4,00U,000 quarters. There were - " ye a for the British merchants in every market, buying e jf quarter of wheat they could lay their bands uPe n „,,* ko t, the Government, then, had entered into the at''' sece , the most disastrous results would have followed a P ut u en t so perfectly suicidal, and therefore the. Gov e ern ,., os e s before D o f could only obtain a limited supply, which was, 01 „ e " t b e re obliged to be most parsimoniously preserved. d, iC was one thing more essential to the benefit of fro' d if, was the establishment of a class of retail traders , I° l,o - when that class was just springing up, the Goverrost had entered into the market and cut up the bud e s WO opening, it would have been a most injurious an i ." o be' line of policy. With reference to emigration , ki,,, h tsf lieved the Government would only have clone nl ib ,4oo had they attempted to provide the means of ernig l oe upon an extensive scale and failed in the attemPt' was number of emigrants during the last ten year s n eed 687,000, and during the last year the number alit° l l;;;,e s to 110,000; the greater majority of these were 1:00 and had the Government sent out a still larger numbe,,,r might be doubtful whether, upon their landing, the Inn; means of subsistence could have been obtained for tn b v io Those who went to Canada in this way, after a ~ j,s remitted money home in order to bring out their t o il • lies ; 37,0001. had within a short period been renl„ b ie • in this way to Liverpool. But if the plan of the Di t ,'' oti e Lord opposite was adopted, parties would not ende e tte to find their way out at their own expense, no re ra de , lances would take place, and the whole cost wo uld volve upon the Government. Without any ai l, f ., ou o ld their Lordships, the tide of emigration tot continue to increase. He might say bled' next year the number of emigrants would be d on w ho He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) a spoke early in the evening, that the Government COt to render essential service to e m i gran t s by pointing °li d to them how to proceed, what districts to select, at n i s i afford them other important i n f ormat i on . They s s ci e- e te not forsake the system of c au ti on a d o pt e d by the o e f o y Lord whilst in office. He should shortly, however, to papers before their Lordships which would affor d - a we fullest information on the subject. Such were the vi the which her Majesty's Government entertained ott subject. After a few words from Lord FERRARI), Lord MONTEAGLE said that he could not ail erf the debate to close without adverting to some exer e6 ; sions which had been used by the Secretary of Sta l ,,, There had been a remarkable abstinence from vitueer..„" tion during the whole course of the debate; be et 7/ fessed that the Noble Lord did no more than his duti a d repelling imputations if any had been cast, but be s be [ t o recollect that, in impugning the Labour--rate Act , 4 , imputation was cast upon her Majesty Governin e v o —(Hear, hear.) The Labour-rate Act vras of the worst which had ever b e en put ~„oc rd the statute-book. All the abuses which the Noble er so bad pointed out in the Act m i g ht ex i st , b u t it s aid Tat much the less for the enactment, for he could not Pe''.s - any good which had arisen from it—it had L _ l t - r e wholly Inoperative for any good purpose. If the Lam. rate Act, which his Noble Friend so strongly re e°- mended, was so good, why propose now to set it a -si ts He bad, however, not denied the failure of the Pl - A0 sure, but the came of it was alleged to have not from the conduct of the people, but ~art cause of the w a nt o f co - o p era ti on o n the P art of the Irish landlords. To that h e wou ld answer , t ire' there was no pla ce i n th e B r iti s h E m pi re , far less n ee land, where s uc h a measure wou ld b e a ll ow ed to c ite tinue. The Labour-rate Act had been a most unfortnn measure, and had failed from its imperfect machin e , r s i w ds not from the want of the co-operation of the Irish tai, owners. The operation of the Act had been a mis t ids ordinate increase in the rate of wages compared l ot what they ordinarily were in the districts where the.oo was brought into operation. The presentment sess l i o were a most imperfect and injurious mode of sect ir us a improvements. Those sessions were generally 011 0 - f; together without any notice, and the bust;ed was transacted in the presence of ex ci ne y multitudes, who were eager to get the votes of Ine"„1., without relation to the possibility of raising the One . or the mode of its application. Presentments we r f',.ite consequence, made faster than the clerks could '- o r them down. At these sessions they bad the eng' rj es s and the officer of the board of works, who in some plate sure would be a protection against the indiscrinneow adoption of the hundreds of presentments that are 11 . 0 cast before the magistrates. Much misreprese nts re' had been put before the public with respect to th e P o d ceedinga at presentment sessions, but they who did sl on e notconsidered the many difficulties besetting them. A . e re sessions, of which he was chairman, thepresentmentsoo - numerous that on asking the advice of the o of the Board of Works, he suggested that they Ea rdbe all be sent up to the B oar d, w h en a se lection trol l o be made, and thus the hands of the magistrates tvot t i E or d strengthened ; and yet, notwithstanding this , I , le es • Moateagle) and other Irish proprietors b,:id u" - the Board fur sending up a mass of presentments 1 1 0 Board of Works without attempting anything b , "1" " 1 when, ill this case, the course was OdeP teti " The M !opies of in Irelan , the poor The 11 The S: Mr. 'IN board of the aboli The E licens e d t he pen, brewerie Sir G cotto n Wen ILI Mr. T "eB a RE Mr. v (Whos e Pr a yi nm to the oi t he prii petition, odia I / :e had prayed loto cot Mr. front C to wns i take m for the Dr, i Ch wou i na , leetion Mr.: next, n growth t ° it b 3 It r. lion,f uture 41 ture th e G o the iic is Mr, 43 bitte e C omm draw• guardi Graha tionen the t i, Secret Wheth Pages lnerea gysten Poor, w 111 up on dir ect CUA -