The Sun. — London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

at par by Parliament. Although lam by no means bold enough to assert that under no circumstances would rube able to effect this redemption, yet I am strongly of opinion that in no very long time, having effected a reduction in the capital of the debt, with a smaller amount of revenue, ni it would be practicable to effect still further reductions this portion of the debt. We also propose that it shall be open to the parties, in lieu of the option to take Exchequer bonds, or of the power to take the New Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at the rate of 821. 10s. against each 1001. Three per Cent. Stock—that it shall be open to the holders of such stock to take, for each 1001., 1101. of the New TWD and-a-Half per Cent. Some objections are, I know, en tertained to this particular feature of the plan, upon which I venture to request the attention of the committee. I will state, as impartially and as fairly as I can, the reasons why it appears to me extremely desirable that this feature should be retained in the plan. I may state that her Ma jesty's Government purpose effectively to limit the extent to which this option can be acted upon. The objection urged against this portion of the proposal is that, in order to reduce the annual charge, we are going to increase the capital of the debt. Now let us carefully weigh this ob jection, for, in my opinion, it is an objection to which con siderable force attaches. But it is nsLt true that we are going to increase the capital of the debt for posterity, in order to reduce the present annual charge. The proposi tion submitted is not one to reduce the interest to 24 per cent. for 40 years, in order that, at the end of that period, the right to demand 3 per cent. might arise on the part of the holders - of the stock on the increased capital. It is proposed to secure for ever, and absolutely to posterity, a reduction of per cent. upon the annual charge. This will place posterity under no disadvantage whatever, rela tively to the circumstances under which we now place our selves. It is also objected that we aro going to add to the capital of the debt as much as we are going to save in the interest during 40 years. If that were true, it would not be conclusive against it, because there would still be a per manent saving after the expiration of the 40 years upon the annual charge of the debt. But it is not true that the addition to the capital is equal to the saving in the reduc tion of the annual charge, for if any person will take the slightest trouble to calculate, he will find that the present value of 101. in 1894 is far below the present value of an annuity of ss. a-year for 40 years. (Hear.) If, then, you balance the alternatives properly, the one against the other, the presumption is, that the increase of the debt by 10 per cent. by the creation of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock will be more than redeemed by the immediate diminution in the capital of the debt by the creation of the New Three-and-a-Half per Cent Stock. If you are skilful in the operation, you offer to the stockholder two alterna tives, as nearly as possible alike—as nearly alike, in fact, as two peas. If you give the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock such a rate of interest as will enable him to deter mine which of the two stocks he will take—if you do that, the presumption is you will have as much Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock taken as the Three per Cent. An HON. MEMBER—No, no. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —Then the hon. gentleman does not cast the balance rightly. (A laugh.) Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that the mere notion of a nominal increase in the capital of the debt would give the capitalist a right to demand higher than a fair price, according to the annual interest for his capital ? The annual interest he has a right to demand. But this is a balance between two alternatives. Ido not deny that the stockholder looks to the capital as well as to the annual interest, but he also looks to the annual interest as well as to the capital; and therefore I say it is your duty to balance the two, one against the other, in such a way that there shall be no great commercial advantage attending one as compared with the other. If you do that, then, 1 say, the presumption is that the stocks may not be unequally taken. An HON. MEMBER here made some observation which was not audible in the gallery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon ourable gentleman refers probably to a former operation, when the Four per Cents. were converted into Three-and a-Half per Cents. The terms then offered included an alternative somewhat of this kind. The persons holding Four per Cent. annuities were offered two alternatives. One was 70/. stock at 5 per cent., which would have yielded interest at the rate of 3/. 10s. per cent. ; and the other, if I mistake not, was stock at par, at 31.105. per cent. But everybody chose the 3/. 10s. stock at par to the Five per Cent. Stock at 70/. ; that is, everybody chose 1001. at 3/. 10s. per cent. rather than 701. at 5/. per cent., because there was no difference in the rate of interest. If, while the 5/. per cent. yielded only 31. 10s., the other yielded 31. 155., of course they would have chosen the higher rate. Bat that is not the here. The man who chooses the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock under our plan will choose an annuity of 2/. 15s. for a limited period, while the man who chooses the Three per Cent. Stock will choose an an nuity of 21. 17s. 9d. But I beg the house to recollect that this operation is quite distinct from those of the loans made during the war. I look back upon the period when those loans were made with regret, and I have groaned inwardly at their consequences, under which we are now suffering. The practice of borrowing at 3 per cent. during the war, when the natural rate of interest was 51. and Si. 103., placed the country in the predicament of securing the insignificant advantage of a lower rate of interest by a few shillings per cent., but it entailed upon us a permanent debt, the amount of which, I think it is clear, if a wiser system had been pursued, we might have reduced before this time, in capi tal and in the annual charge, by something like from 100,000,0001. to 200,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) I do not mean to blame those who conducted these operations. They were placed, in circumstances of difficulty that we cannot now appreciate ; but certainly the system entailed an ex ceedingly heavy charge upon posterity, for it left to pos terity a debt almost irredeemable for the sake of a very small temporary advantage. (Hear, hear.) But surely those operations are not to be compared with a case of this kind, the whole basis of which is an advantage to the present period and to posterity also. (Hear, hear.) lam not going to sacrifice the interests of posterity ; on the con trary, I am promoting the advantage of posterity by the course lam proposing to the committee. It may, perhaps, be said, " You might do that by taking another course." Certainly, that is a question open to discussion and to ar gument. Still the fact is that by this proposal the house will secure to posterity an absolute reduction upon the an nual charge of the debt. But I wish the committee to un derstand—and I urge this as a plea on behalf of my pro position—that I freely assent to the general doctrine that it is not desirable to increase the nominal capital of the debt. (Hear.) All I ask you is this, that you will, Ido not say indulgently, for it is not a matter of indulgence, but that you will fairly and candidly look at the case as it stands, and consider the great object of public policy that we have in view. The Government may be right or it may be wrong in any proposal of this kind—and I will state by and by more distinctly how the proposal will be guarded-- but the proposal unquestionably rests upon a broad ground. (Hear.) I have said that the great object which her Ma jesty's Government had in view was to establish, if it be possible, an irredeemable public debt, which will bear a respectable price in the market, and bearing an interest of not more than 21 per cent. It is for that purpose we propose to include these among the various forms of the conversionable Three per Cent. Stock. Perhaps you will tell me, " You may secure that by means of Exchequer bonds." I should be delighted -to do that. I trust we may ; but we may find that we cannot bring these bonds into credit and character, unless we give a power of redemption to the holders. That may be very well, but any operation of that kind, involving redemption at a par ticular time, when you might be in difficulty or in war, must necessarily be a limited operation, and it does not lay the ground for that which we want to see—namely, the creation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. irredeemable public stock. (Hear.) Give us this public stock, and then I say we shall have made solid ground where now is only morass ; then may tread where we could not before ; then we shall have a fixed point down to which we can work ; and we shall have something by which to direct our opera tions in future with certainty, where all now is compara tively speculation and suspense. If, I will add, the com mittee think it is a great public object to establish firmly this Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock in such a manner as shall make it an ordinary subject of commercial dealing, then I do hope they will not exclude this part of the pro position. (Hear.) Now I come to a point to which lam most anxious to call the attention of the committee. It has been pointed out to us that as the resolutions stood as first printed it would have been open to all the headers of Three per Cent. Stock to effect their conversion into this Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. Though that was not a probable, it was at least a supposable case that such would be the effect. Ii 500,000,0001. of Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock were to be reduced into Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, a reduction in the annual charge would be effected which would be most gratifying to me. It would relieve the finances of the country to a very great extent— to the amount, I think, of about 1.500,0001. a-year. That would be a most gratifying circumstance, but I certainly , was not sang line enough to anticipate it. Bat it was also pointed out that this resolution would entail an increase upon the nominal capital of the debt to the extent of 50,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) Sir, lat once defer to that objection. I do not think any such increase ought to be allowed. (Hear.) It is not necessary for the purpose we have in view, which is to lay the foundation of a two-and a-half per cent. stock. For great and essential purposes I ask you to allow me to create this stock ; but it is not ne cessary we should allow it to be created to such an extent as it was felt it might be by the terms included in the re solutions. Here I must make an apology to the house. The draft of this plan was framed with a somewhat diffe rent effect ; but in drawing out the resolutions—a most difficult operation, even if done by the most skilful per sons, in order to conform to the rules of the house, and cover the extent of the object—l must admit they took a form which, though I did not perceive so clearly as I do now, left them open to the just objection that they might go to the whole capital of the Three per Cent. debt, and thus entail much difficulty. But it is understood, I admit at once, that that ought not to be the case—(hear)—and I propose to meet the difficulty by an alteration that has been introduced into the reprint of theresolutions. If the committee will have the kindness to turn to the reprint of the resolutions they will find that the amount to which this Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock may be created under the authority of the act to be founded upon the resolutions is limited to 30,000,0001. Some additions to that amount may take place from the compulsory commutation of the South Sea Company's Stock. It is not necessary, how ever, to go i nto that. All lam now concerned to say is, that by th e 10th of these resolutions, as it now stands, the utmost possible creation f this new Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Sto c k i s 30,0001 a propose,beon expressed th en , to upon me e t the just app re h ens i ons which this subject, by the limitations which have been thus intro duced— Mr. RICARDO—Howie the stock to be apportioned The CHANCELLOR of the rity. It is all to be done by entEriXle.:(C) liinEtQhije Ebit—ooksßYatPrithe e ( 1 , 1 1. made in the books Bank. When entries shall have the parties at the Bank, including the names rising an option in favour of the T (11 . -,a te l ri f the exer- Cent. Stock to the amount of 30 a' be , without power will cease. Thus the apportiionaentii; by priority, and it will be effected, any difficulty. The effect of the change will be, that the utmost nominal addition that c an t a k e place t o ' ti capital of the national debt under the p owers which I aslise you thus to confer will be something more than 3,000,000/ 'What, then, I would put to the committee is, that a nomi nal addition to the capital of the debt, compared with the present annual saving, is a very small price to pay for the attainment of such an object—for the object which the Go vernment have in view, namely, the laying of the foundation of an irredeemable and permanent Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. (Hear.) I know no other way in which we can with certainty attain the same object. If we could obtain it by the issue of Exchequer bonds, certainly I should prefer it; but, seeing we cannot make sure of it in that manner, I venture to hope the proposal will have not only the candid, but, I will venture to say, the favourable consideration of the committee. (Hear.) I have thus, at a length very much greater than I anticipated, gone through the details of this proposition. I have endeavoured to keep close to the subject. I thank the house for its kindness. I know that upon a question of this nature the attempt to be con cise might have led me into obscurity, and have made that which professed to be an explanation utterly unintelligible But I have now come to the end of this explanation, andall I have to say more may be com Prised in a very few sen tences. With regard to th e discretion which I ask you to confide to the Government, that discretion may be limited at any stage in the progress of the bill that will be founded upon the resolutions. Perhaps it would be objectionable to introduce new powers to the Government in the progress of the bill; but a limitation of their powers cold not be objectionable at any of its stages. There is likewise another subject, which, though isolated, I may refer to here. It is one of great importance. It is the subject of the large amount of stock now held by the Accountant-General in Chancery and the Accountant-General in Bankruptcy. I no not purpose by these resolutions that the Accountant- General in Chancery or the Accountant-General in Bank ruptcy shall have the power of exercising the option of com mutation, excepting as to the limited amount of minor stock which we are going to redeem. As to the great stocks it is not proposed to give them the power of exercising the option. The main reason for this I will state. There is great reason to suppose—l will not say it is an absolute conclusion on the part of her Majesty's Government—but there is a great reason to suppose that more extensive changes may be introduced into the law with regard to the large amount of money in their hands. The system at pre sent appears to be of a most defective character. No doubt, as far as regards the good faith upon which that large pro perty is held, it is unassailable; but in its nature it is fluc tuating capital with a fixed interest. Now, the interest of the trust funds which are in Chancery is of comparatively inferior consideration; but the integrity of the capital is a matter of very great importance. It is extremely hard that the property of parties who are debarred by legal difficulties from its enjoyment should be subject to changes—great and vital changes perhaps—from circumstances entirely inde pendent of their wills; and I have great hope that it may be in the power of Government, but I cannot venture to commit them to the subject, to produce a measure that will place the great amount of th ese t rus t f un d s upon a b as i s more satisfactory to the persons on whoso behoof and for whose ultimate benefit it is held. For these reasons Ido not propose to give the power of commutation of the great stocks now held by these two officers, the Accountant- General of the Court of Chancery and the Accountant- General of the Court of Bankruptcy. I have now only just to mention what are the alterations that have been intro duced into the resolutions — Mr. Hl73lE—Tell us what will be the saving under your plan ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—My hon. friend the member for Montrose has just asked me a most important question. He has asked me what will be the amount of the annual saving ? (Laughter.) I do not know what the precise saving will be. I have not ventured to put this plan to the house as a scheme involv ing a saving ; but if it succeeds the amount of saving will be considerable. It cannot be but that there must be some amount of saving. I would rather not make a calculation of the amount, seeing that it does not depend upon circum stances that we can control, and which are beyond our knowledge. If you take 30,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds and put them out at 2i per cent., the saving upon them, as compared with a 3 per cent. stock, would be for the first ten years 175,0001., and after the first ten years 150,0001 That would be the amount upon these bonds ; but I by no means limit myself to that. What I wish to secure upon that framework is, that when Government shall come back to Parliament and render an account of the success of this operation, it shall be in your power to say whether it shall be extended or not. Now the changes in the resolutions are these. The third resolution, as it stands now, is a new resolution, but the object of it is not to make any substan tial change. It is only to make sure that the resolution shall convey to Parliament the powers I have endeavoured to describe in the course of my explanations, and with re gard to which a doubt had been raised whether the language of the second resolution, if it stood alone, was sufficient to convey those powers. The eighth resolution, again, is a new resolution, but this resolution I believe I may say is, in the 'strictest sense, merely a formal resolu tion. It is likewise to prevent legal doubts, and it implies no substantial alteration whatever. The most important change in the resolution is that which the right honourable gentleman opposite with great rapidity discovered. It is contained in the 10th resolution. The committee will see that the effect of it is simply this, that it limits the com mutation which may be made of the Consolidated Three per Cent. Annuities—that is of the great stocks—into two and-a-half per cent. stock to the sum of 30,000,0001. as a maximum. It leaves it entirely free to go on with the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. I wish the committee to un derstand that. So far as concerns the Government I do not know any objection to limit the creation of the Three and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, bat there is no danger attend ing its creation. There is no fear of too much ;it is only of too little. We do not therefore propose to attach any limit upon that; but we do propose to fix this limit upon the possible creation of the Two-and-a-Half per. Cent. Stock in the resolutions. This is the only change affecting the general structure of the plan that has been made in the second edition of the resolutions ; and there is no other change whatever of any important character. The com mittee will now be in a condition to judge whether the change is of that character that would make it desirable for them to take further time for its consideration, or whether they would choose to proceed at the present mo ment. I, for my part, have discharged the duty which was incumbent upon me. In conclusion, I have only to thank the committee 'for the great attention and patience with which they have listened to me, and to add that I shall be most happy, if I have failed in any point to make clear the intentions of the Government, to answer any questions which any honourable member may wish to put to me. (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman then resumed his seat. On the first resolution being read, Mr. HUME said the plan which the right hon. gentle man had just introduced as an experiment should be tried. As it first appeared upon the original resolutions he was afraid it would have proved a failure ; but as it had now been explained, and explained with so much clearness and ability that no hon. member could fail to comprehend it, he believed it would succeed. (Hear, hear.) There was a large class of persons holding property in the funds who disliked the trouble of the present system of transferring stock, and who did not like to pay brokerage. To these the change explained by the right hon. gentleman would be very acceptable, whilst the plan generally would prove a public convenience. He suggested that it might be de sirable to devise some method whereby thegividends could be paid in the large provincial towns. The change might affect the interests of London bankers and agents, but it • would be an immense facility and give great satisfaction to the community at large. It was only right that the stock exchanges of towns like Birmingham, Manchester, Liver pool and Glasgow, and other places, now that communica . . iion was so easy and rapid, by means of the electric tele graph, should be placed upon the same footing as that of London. Mr. 'WILLIAMS said the plan involved an increase of 3,000,0001. to the amount of the national debt; and to this he objected on principle. This system had been the bane of the financial policy of this country. From the year 1775, the commencement of the American war, down to the year 1816, the termination of the continental war, there had been an addition to the principal of the national debt of no less than 589,000,0001. But how much of that amount had been received? Why, only 417,000,0001. Thus, by abandoning the sound principle of having 1001. sterling for 1001. Consols, the nation had been saddled with 171,000,000/. of debt more than it ought to be, Again, when the right hon. baronet the President of the Board of Control (Sir Charles Wood), as Chancellor of the Exche quer, raised the loan of 8,000,0001. for the relief of the people of Ireland, a large amount was added in the same manner to the national debt. Such additions amounted to a declaration that we never intended to pay it. In his opinion the right hon. gentleman had commenced dealing with the debt too soon. If he had delayed any scheme for reducing the interest for twelve months from this period, the operation would probably then have been attended with advantage. Mr. HENLEY had no great objection to that part of the scheme which proposed to deal with the South Sea Stocks, nor to the proposal for creating a new species of pub lic security, called Exchequer bonds ; but he did not see any great public advantage in creating new stock markets in different parts of the country. He could not conceive how any great difference of prices could exist between London and any other town, when by means of the electric telegraph to which the hon. member for Montrose had referred, the prices on the London Stock Exchange were conveyed in five minutes from one part of the kingdom to the other. That shut out the notion com pletely of any difference of prices in different parts of the country. (Hear. hear.) With respect to the Exchequer bonds he agreed perfectly with the right hon. the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, that securities of that nature passing from hand to hand the same as Exchequer bills, would be a considerable convenience to the public, (Hear, hear.) But the right hon. gentleman had not informed the com mittee, nor did the resolutions informthem, in what amount these bills were to be issued. The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The amount stated is 30,000,0001. Mr. HENLEY : The right hon. gentleman did not say whether they were to bel,ooo/. bond; or 5,0001. bonds or in in what amounts they would be issued. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The bonds will be 100/. and upwards. Mr. HENLEY : If the bonds were issued in 100/. and upwards, that would very much increase the convenience which he admitted such securities would afford to the pub lic. (Hear, hear.) One part of the scheme struck him as requiring some consideration. Although the right hon. gentleman took the limit of 30,000,000/. he evidently con templated, if this operation should be successful, to con tinue to issue, at some part of the present year or of a sub sequent year, these securities. It was not usual to entrust the Government with the power of acting on the Money Market by means of issuing securities of this nature to a certain degree without the control of Parliament. It was said that the issue could not exceed a certain amount ; but to give the minister of the day the power to act on the market to the extent of 30,000,000/. without control, was not a course of proceeding which Parliament was in the habit of taking, and he should be sorry to give an opinion on the matter off hand. He was the last to suppose that any Minister would make an improper use of powers en trusted to him, but the great point wig, not only to know that he would not do it, but to relieve him from the pos sibility of being suspected of doing it. This was only to be the beginning of important changes, and therefore it was a very strong reason why the committee should not be asked to agree to the resolutions without having had time to examine them. Another valid reason for some delay, was the fact that these resolutions had assumed a very dif ferent shape from that in which they were first presented. The right honourable gentlemen had admitted the inconve nience of adding to the capital of the national debt. The right honourable gentleman had spoken in language much mere forcible than he could use of the great wrong of so doing. That conviction seemed to have sprung up within the last twenty-four or forty-eight hours, because unques tionably these formal resolutions did not indicate anything which would lead a human being to suppose that the right honourable gentleman had any such indisposition to add to the capital of the national debt. He now said it would be an abomination to increase it to the extent of 50 millions, but he had not the least objection to increase it by 3 millions, that he might have the pleasure of founding a Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle manm o s u ai s d , , b ` u ` t l l a e cl t m m i e t i i i t aN N , V e ould b t e h an aggravated sin to add 50 —it is but a little one—[a [alaugh)—and thenl shallmorsel per formed a great national feat." (Hear, hear.) to know what was the only this little H e o f s h3ou haveld millions lke on a ground admitted to be if use of t o e c ir ?: these 30 millions of Two -and-a-Half per Cent. lie it he e nt c l o e u m h r go wa o s n nwoitthsanthis.n could only be done objectionable ? If the right enough to think that next hon. gentleman Stock without adding to the deb r t °- \a:id-a-Half per Cent. making a beginning ? And if he ,o,,meheat was the use of believe that next year or the year afirrgwilinl' enough to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock without the could shilling to the capital of the debt, then he was r " Al in !, a a very bad bargain to offer to commute on any oth ra er a t (Hear hear.) There was another point, though on e l - y ins. a slight one—upon what plea o f j ust i ce was it proposed to shut out from this commutation trustees having funds invested by order of the Court of Chancery ? He thought, generally speaking, all parties should be allowed to take advantage of this scheme, if they s o c h ose , w ithi n a limited period, Ile doubted the justice of shutting out any one, and the right hon. gentleman had assigned no reason for the exclusion pointed out, except that he had some scheme in the clouds for dealing with all sums in the Court of Chancery. Was the house to take that as an indication that the Chancellor of the Exchequer in tended to lay hands u p on it? i events it was an unu sua l course, and n ( H d e k a a r r , d ihye justar. ) t o A m t a a k l e l an exception ; and that was another reason why the house should not be asked to coma to a conclusion to-night. With regard to the general scheme, what effect it would have on the other securities of the 'country—whether the Exchequer bonds would circulate . at a greater premium than Exchequer bills—were questions very difficult to deter mine until the test of experience had been applied. He thought the issue of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock was a very important change, and that the several other changes proposed wore of such moment that it was not fair of the Government to ask the house to come to a reso lution before they had been well considered, especially as he did not anticipate any public inconvenience would re sult from a few hours' delay. (Hear, hear.) Mr. E. ELLICE took an entirely different view from the right honourable gentleman who had just sat down, with regard to the advantage or disadvantage of delay in passing this resolution. It must not be forgotten that this propositiOn exceeded by far in amount every attempt made by any previous finance minister of this country to deal with the national debt, and as it laid the foundation of -a greater scheme hereafter, it ought to be viewed with the greatest indulgence by the house, and the greatest pos sible facilities ought to be voluntarily given to carry out the object of his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) He confessed that as the resolutions originally stood he could not have supported that part which added to the capital of the debt, but that had now been modified. The right honourable gentleman opposite complained that his right hon. friend (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) only dealt with part of the debt. He did not know how any Chancellor of the Exchequer could deal with the whole. (Hear, hear.) He should never have thought it could have entered into the contem plation of any member of that house, that the Chancelkir of the Exchequer would have come down and proposed the commutation of 500,000,0061. of debt, either by reducing the interest to 24 per cent., or offering to pay off the holders of the stock. (Hear.) The only possible principle on which the operation of reducing the debt could be conducted was that proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had always thought it desirable for this country to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, as had been done in Holland, which should find favour with the public, and afford the means of ultimately re ducing the interest on the whale debt to that sum. The right honourable gentleman said it was proposed to give great discretion to the Government. He should like to know how the scheme could be carried into effect without it. So far from throwing obstacles in the way, he should have expected the right hon. gentleman would have done everything in his power to facilitate an object which must be of such benefit and advantage to the country. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman made objectio n t o th e h o ldi ng out advantages to the stockholders. He did not say there had ever been a case analogous to the present, but when ever Exchequer bills had been funded the advantage was given to the parties subscribing, and the same inducement must be given, unless they were prepared to deal with the whole debt. With respect to the funds of the Court of Chancery, for the last thirty years, ever since the peace, he had been astonished that in this country more attention was not paid to the interests of property, and that no pro position had been made to place those funds on a more reasonable footing. Nothing made a case so clear as an il lustration. He recollected the executors of the late Duke of Queensberry were called upon to invest upwards of a million of money in the funds, in consequence of suits be lly, instituted in the Court of Chancery against them. When the stock was purchased it was at 52-53, and when it was sold, at 96-97; so the result was the residuary legatee made a profit of three, or four, or five hundred thousand pounds. That was a very good bargain ; but suppose to-morrow he was required to invest for an infant a large sum in stock at 100, who could tell that the con verse of the transaction would not take place, and he might have to sell at 52 or 53 that which he invested at 100. Such a thing might occur. We had now been forty years at peace, and he hoped we should be at peace forty years longer —at least as long as he lived—but suddenly we might find ourselves involved in war, and that contin gency justified his right hon. friend in hazarding a great deal, and in making this great experiment to obtain the public advantage. TO revert again to the Court of Chan cery : the court would not allow infants' property to be dealt with in any other way than to be invested in the funds, and was it fit that the property of infants and other persons which was obliged to be invested in the funds should be constantly exposed to these risks, and that no attempt should be made to devise some scheme to give security to capital? He tendered his thanks to his right hon. friend for having been the first to grapple with this subject. (Hear, hear.) He entreated the house to give every possible facility. It was, of course, a great experi ment. The right hon. gentleman did not profess to intro duce it in any other light than to enable him to take ad vantage of a favourable moment to attempt a reduction of the interest of the national debt. He hoped it would be successful, and he could not understand the grounds on which, if they gave the Government their confidence, and wished to enable them to go on with their measure, they should withhold their assent to the resolution. What good could result from postponing it for a day ? It would only keep the public mind in a state of excitement. (Hear, hear.) They must deal with a case of this kind by repos ing confidence in the Government, and giving them every facility, or they had better at once reject it.. The public ought not, upon a subject of this importance, to be kept in doubt and uncertainty. He, therefore, entreated the house to go on with an experiment to which everybody in that house wished success, and which was of such great in terest to the public. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was quite ready to ac quiesce in the recommendation which had just been made to them to give the question before them a fair, candid, and impartial consideration. He admitted the immense magnitude of the question as regarded the public interest. Most certainly during the period he had the honour of sitting in that house—now upwards of 33 years—he had never yet heard from a Minister of the Crown SO bold a measure in reference to the national debt. (Hear, hear.) But, while he admitted the magnitude of the question, and while he was anxious to give it a fair and candid con sideration, he must still ask whether it was not right that members should have at least 24 hours to consider it ; for it should be recollected that the first edition of the resolu tions was only delivered yesterday morning, and the second edition had only reached his hands since the house had met ? If the scheme was a wise one, why not give members time to consider it ? (Hear, hear.) The scheme contained matter of great and serious importance. He had long thought that the South Sea debt should have been dealt with before now. It occasioned a charge to the country for which there was no sufficient justification. He admitted also that it was desirable to create a 2i per cent. stock, but the question was, whether the operation could not be effected at a more favourable period than the present—at a period when the scheme would be sure to be carried into effect and a saving effected to the public at large, instead of puttin o c , it forward as a mere experiment, as the right hon. gentleman himself admitted it to be. For himself, he (Mr. Alderman Thompson) did not think that the present was the best time for the operation. It appeared to him also, from the little consideration he had been able to give fhe subject, that the right hon. gentle man's resolutions contained principles which acted in op position to each other. The right hon. gentleman took credit to himself for having created a great saving of in terest on Exchequer bills. But he (Mr. Alderman Thomp son) _would ask any gentleman connected with the mono- tali- interests] of t y he'counry.whether it was possible for the right honourable gentleman to keep 18,000,0001. of Ex chequer bills at 1i per cent. in floating circulation with Exchequer bonds at 2# per cent. ? (Hear, hear.) The one was utterly inconsistent with the other. He did not deny that, to A certain extent, the Exchequer bills would be taken, because they were the most convenient security which individuals could hold for temporary and particular objects ; but if the right hon. gentleman expected that he would keep 18,000,0001. of them in circulation at 13 per cent. with his Exchequer bonds at 24 per cent. he would find himself mistaken. Besides, if ho paid 1 per cent, more upon Exchequer bonds than upon Exchequer bills, would not that occasion a loss to the country? (Hear.) In connection with the proposed bonds there was one thing which ho viowed with considerable alarm, and that was with respect to the conditions on which they were issued. He should be quite indisposed to grant to any Government whatever the power of issuing bonds on such a condition as that of redeeming them when they thought fit. His own opinion was that they should be redeemable at some fixed and positive period, as he believed all foreign bonds were. It might indeed be very inconvenient to have bonds to the extent of 20,000,0001. or 30,000,0001. falling due all at once, at a particular period. Still that difficulty had been met by other countries, and why not in ours? (Hear, hear.) On the whole, he was quite willing to show indul gence on this important question, but he did think the country would expect that the resolutions should be de layed at least till next week, to allow time to consider their effect. Mr. J. B. SMITH confessed that he had felt great alarm on reading the first edition of the resolutions of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. The second edition he had not yet seen; but he understood, from what, had f a ll en f rom the right hon. gentleman, that his original proposition had been so far modified as that he now proposed to add only 30,000,0001. instead of 50,000,0001., to the nominal capital of the national debt, though he still adhered to the bonus of 10 per cent. for the purpose of establishing a 2} per cent. stock, giving thereby a bonus of 3,000,000/. for that pur pose. He thought that hon. members should, inquire, before assenting to a resolution of this kind, whether the right hon. gentleman intended to follow it up by the crea tion of a larger amount of stock than 30,000,000/. ; be cause, if not, where was the use of passing the resolutions? (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that it would be better to wait, and take their chance of a more favourable oppor tunity of reducing the interest of the national debt. He (Mr. Smith) was disposed to think with the hon. alderman that there was great doubt whether Exchequer bonds at 2.# per cent. interest and Exchequer bills at 1 would cir culate together. (Hear.) He agreed that it was desirable to take a little more time to consider the important subject before the house, and not decide upon it that night. (Hear, bear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer might do well to consider whether the time might not have arrived when some effort should be made to reduce our debt ; whether any scheme was practicable for paying off a portion of it. He might perhaps some day be induced to ask for a com mittee toinquire into the practicability of that. If that object could be effected it would afford great facilities for reducing the interest. Sir F. KELLY wished also to submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the house could with any pro priety be asked to proceed to a decision upon this vast and important question that night. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the resolutions was to deal immediately with about 10,000,0001. of the national debt, and possibly with nearly ' 500,000,0001. Gentlemen, on coming down to the house, found that no less important a change had been made in the resolutions than a limitation of that portion of the debt with which it was proposed to deal to 30,000,0001. ; and this change must be considered with respect to its effect upon the option proposed to be given to the fundholder. What was the option given to him ? Unless he (Sir F. Kelly) entirely misapprehended the resolutions, the appa rent option was absolutely nugatory, and neither more nor less than a pure and mere delusion. Contrasting the pro posal to convert 1001. into 1101. 2/ per cent. with the other two modes of conversion proposed, no man in his senses could hesitate for a moment which he could accept ; and the idea of putting this forward to the country as if it were really a question of equivalents, the one as like to the other (as the right hon. gentleman said) as two peas—the idea of putting forward these proposals as in any way equal as approaching to each other in advantage and disadvan tage, was a pure delusion. (Hear, hear.) As had been said there was nothing like a plain illustration :—then suppose the owner of 1001. South Sea Stock considering which of the three proposals it was to his interest to accept. No doubt the benefit to the country might be termed incalcu lable of converting a considerable portion of the national debt into 3 - per cent, s t oc k on th e t erms h ere stated ; but it was a mockery to pretend th a t any one wou ld dream of accepting that proposal if he could obtain either of the THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853. other two. The second proposal would give him for his 1001., 110/. 2A per cent stock, redeemable at 110/. at the end of 40 years, with 2/. 15s. per annum meantime. At the end of 40 years he would be possessed of a capital of 110/. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated dissent.) He was to have " the sum of 1101. in a new stock of 2i per cent. annuities." He would bo possessed of 1101. capital. (A. Member.--" Stock.") A debt of 110/. would be due to him from the Go7e_a• meat as much as the 1001, was now due. (A member -" No.") Really if he had any organs of understanding, he (Sir F. Kelly) took it so ; the Government could not relieve itself from the debt without paying 1101. (Hear, hear.) And was there anything visionary- was it taking an exaggerated view of the possibilities of the future to suppose, looking to the influx of gold-that at the end of - the 40 years it might be to the interest of the Government to pay off even a per cent. stock by payment of 110/. ? (Hoar, hear.) What was the next of these proposals? To give an Exchequer bond for 100/., with 21. 15s. interest per annum interest for 10 years, or some less period that the Government might determine, and 21. 10s. for the rest of the 40 years ; and at the end of the 40 years this person would have his stock, in the shape of a Treasury bond of 1001. In the one case he would have 21. 15s. for 40 years, and then be the holder of 1101. stock ; and in the other case he would have 21. 15s. for 10 years, and 21. 10s. for the next 30, and then be the holder of only 1001. stock, liable to be paid off at that amount : would the hon. gen tleman pretend that it was anything but a delusion to say here was an option ? What man in his senses would pause between the two? (Hear.) What was the remaining pro posal? ,To give for the 1001. 82/. 10s., 3. per cent. stock guaranteed against reduction for 40 years, and yielding therefore 21. 17s. 9d. for 40 years, but liable then t o b e paid off at 82/. 103., icing 271. less than if he took 1101. 21 per cents., producing 21. 15s. What was the compensation for his being entitled to 271. 10s. less under this proposal than under the other at the end of 40 years ? Just 2s. 9d. more interest per annum during the 40 years. Was 2s. 9d. a-year for 40 years' purchase-money for 271. 10s. at the end of that time ? (Hear.) Would it represent even in per petuity more than 51. or 61.? (Hear.) Were these two proposals as like as two peas? (Hear.) This was a sub ject of which those of his profession rarely presumed to address the house ; but it had appeared to him (Sir F. Kelly) not so much a matter of financial policy as a simple question of arithmetic-(hear)-and he believed he had not used too strong a term when he said it was a delusion to hold this out as an option presenting three equiva lents, or something approaching to three equivalents. Was it not absolutely certain that any one would accept the second proposal and reject the others? (Hear, hear.) With the change which had now been made in the resolutions, was it fair to press the house to pronounce on them that night? If anything could render the question more important, he might almost, say more alarming in its aspect, it was that the Go vernment were seeking the sanction of the house to that which was admitted to be an entirely new opera tion-(hear)-unexampled in its extent-(hear)-and if ever there was a time when the house should proceed to the consideration of such measures with caution and the utmost deliberation, it was when we were not in a settled and permanent financial condition, but when the finances of this and every country were in a state of transition, owing to the unprecedented influx of gold-(hear)-a time that should be the very last when a Goverment should seek to tie up the hands of the State for a period of no less than 40 years. (Hear.) Mr.WILSON observed that the hon. and learned gentle man could not conceive that a man with 100/. to invest would accept the alternative of an Exchequer bond. He might see that a fallacy must lurk in his statement, because it was found as a fact that with Consols at par there were abundance of people ready to invest in Exchequer-bills, not at 21. 155., but at 11.10 s. per cent. The hon. and learned gentleman overlooked the character of the security. Stock, redeemable only at the option of the Government, was hedged round by a great number of inconveniences and costs in its transmission, while an Exchequer bill passed from hand to hand. The hon. and learned gentleman over looked, therefore, in regard to one of the securities compared, an advantage which would give these Exchequer bonds an enormous value in the eyes of bankers and insurance offices, and those who had temporary investments to make. Of so great value was that convenience, when stated in pounds, shillings, and pence, that the Government had been able at the very moment the Bank of England was raising its rate of interest, and Cor sols were below par, to convert 9,000,0001. sterling . of Exchequer-bills, bearing inte rest at per cent., into Exchequer-bills bearing interest at 1i per cent. Referring to the hon. and learned gentle man's remark on an increase of the capital of the public debt, he begged to say that he entirely concurred in the observation that nothing presented the management of the public debt and of public affairs in so lamentable an as tpreacett e n d s t i h n e the im i p a r s o t v ce i d n e t n u t ry m . o d n In p o w i n h t i c h of t p h r e i n d ci e b p t l e w a h s e c e o n n tirely concurred in thinking it undesirable, without some decided advantage, to add to the nominal amount of the debt. Posterity, however, would not be disadvantaged by the arrangement which was proposed. It was proposed to limit the 3 per cents. to be dealt with to 30,000,0001. In stead of 3 per cen t. th a t wou ld be taken at 2 per cent. There was a saving of per cent. on that transaction at once, of 75,000/. per annum. Supposing they did not consume the saving, but made it go as a payment to an additional amount of capital, the effect would be that the 75,000/. per annum saved for forty years would amount to 3,000,000/. ; so that, in a saving of per cent. without interest, the total amount would be exactly equivalent to the rate at which the national debt would be increased. [Mr. Hume.-" You eat your cake."] He had got a sum to fund for the benefit of posterity 40 years hence, being exactly equivalent to the amount which he added to the nominal amount of the debt. But he had got more. He had got compound interest on this annual sum of 75,000,000/. for 40 years. He should not enter further on the subject, as he should have it in his power to discuss it on future opportunities. Mr. SPOONER thought the argument of the hon. mem ber for Westbury was unintelligible, except in so far as it showed that the result of the proposed operation would be to leave the country exactly in the same position in which it was at present. With respect to the alterations in two of the reso lutions, those alterations had not beenZso explained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be understood. The plan in the original resolutions, it is now said, was not the plan ; but it was incumbent on the right hon. gentleman to have well considered the resolutions in the first instance. Agreeing that delay was dangerous, he (Mr. Spooner) thought that the attempt should not be made to proceed with a speed incompatible with the requirements of jus tice; and justice could not be done if full consideration were not given to the subject. He was by no means pre pared to reject the whole plan. Much of it he was in clined to approve ; but if he were asked that night to say "Ay" or "No," he should say "No," because he would not commit himself at the moment to a proposition which was open to the objections that had been stated. Mr. JOHN M'GREGOR supported the proposition made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The benefit of dealing as proposed with Treasury bonds to the amount of 30,000,0001. would extend to every country of Europe. Every banking establishing would avail itself of them, and they would be found most convenient for investment. The real question was, whether you could reduce the annual amount to be paid as interest for the public debt. H e was convinced that out of doors the resolutions would give the utmost satisfaction, and that the sooner the committee assented to them the better. Mr. WILKINSON was understood to express his con currence in some of the objections stated by the hon. and learned member for East Suffolk. Considering the dif ference of opinion which existed with respect to portions of the comprehensive scheme proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, be thought that some delay should take place to give an opportunity for examining the proposition to more advantage. _ Mr. LAING hoped the right hon. gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would not accede to the invitations which had been thrown out. The question had been fully discussed out of doors, and the explanations given to-night of the amended resolution removed the only serious ob jection that had been felt to a proposal which, upon the whole, had been well received. Objections were at first felt to a scheme which appeared likely to increase the national debt by 50,000,0001., but that argument appeared to him to have been greatly overstated. Men of business now fully understood the proposal, and he trusted it would be agreed to by the house. (Hear.) The question was then put, that the first resolution be agreed to. Mr. DISRAELI hoped the committee would hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was not his inten tion to proceed any further to night. Lord J. RUSSELL did not think it would be at all con venient that the Committee should not go on to affirm the resolutions to-night. It seemed of great importance, now that the resolutions had been so much discu sse d, th a t the committee should so far decide upon the resolutions as to permit the bill to be brought in, and that was the proposi tion now before the house. The question was, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having fully and clearly stated his plans, should be permitted to bring in his bill. (Hear.) It would be very disadvantageous to postpone the decision of that question until another evening. A post ponement might have taken place, if hon. gentlemen who had doubts and objections to the plan had said that they did not wish to discuss it, and had asked for delay. But the contrary of that course had been pursued. Every gentleman who felt objections to the plan had stated them in the strongest manner. They had gone through every thing that could be said against it—(" No, no," from the Opposition benches")—and some of the objections had been stated with a great deal of bitterness, which was not usually displayed on such questions. If hon. gentleman had pro posed in the first instance to postpone the discussion, he should have had no objection, but he now saw very great objections to delay. Mr. DISRAELI said, the bitterness to which the noble lord had adverted must have been displayed when he went to dinner, for he had heard none of it. (A laugh.) The question then arose on which side of the house it had been manifested, for hon. members had Opposed the scheme on both sides of the house, and he must assume that the bit terness had not been displayed by any of his friends. He did not wish to enter into a lengthened discussion to night, and he admitted there was an understanding with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no discussion should take place to-night. But, as it was only yesterday that the original resolutions were circulated, and as he had not seen the important alteration made by the right hon. gentleman until the moment he entered the house, he did not think it manifested great bitterness to appeal for further time for discussing the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) If all the com mittee were now asked to agree to was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be allowed to bring in a bill, that removed many of his objections. But if it were to go forth to the country that the House of Commons had solemnly assented to the proposal of the right hon. gentleman, then it would be his duty to call for a division, to show the ' comparatively small number of members present at that moment. He would, however, take the word of the noble lord, that the committee were only asked to express an opi nion now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be .permitted to bring ,in his bill, and that proposal he should not oppose. The right hon. member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) said that it was the business of the House of Com mons always to facilitate the progress of Government busi ness. That was a doctrine no doubt very agreeable to the Treasury benches, and the house would be disposed to comply with that rule ; but in being amiable and avoid ing displays of bitterness, they must not lose the opportu nity of discussing subjects of great importance, upon which, as it seemed, no mistake or difference of opinion could possibly arise among men of business. The hon. gen tleman who had spoken last seemed to treat this as a ques tion upon which men of business could not have two7olpi nions. But, speaking their views, he had objected to the increase of the debt which would have followed from adopt ing the second proposition of the original resolution, while the Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. Wilson) said that no in crease of the permanent debt of the country could have taken place under that proposal, but rather a diminution — (a laugh)—and that, if it had remained as it had been ori iinallyframed, instead of causing an increase of 50,000,6 00 /. the debt, as apprehended by men of business, there would have been a proportionate diminution. Mr, LAING. said he bath stated that the original resoln• tion would have increased the difficulty of converting the new stock into a stock bearing a lower rate of interest at the end of the term. (Hear.) Mr. DISRAELI had understood the hon. gentleman to state that there were great objections on the part of men of business to the original resolution, on the ground that it would increase the permanent debt. But the Secretary of the Treasury showed that this was a mistake on the part of men of business, and that there would have been a di minution in the amount of the debt thereby. All that he (Mr. Disraeli) wanted was, before the opportunity arrived of entering into a discussion upon the merits of the resolu tions, that the house should come to some clear conception of what they were hereafter to debate. There had already been a considerable change made in the propositions framed by the right hon. gentleman. The committee had heard them described by eminent members, all supporting them in very different language. The right hon. member for Coventry had described the Government plan as one of the most important and gigantic financial proposals that had over been brought forward, and in another part of his speech this colossal proposal figured as the creation of a two-and-a-half per cent. stock. The general impression for some time had been that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to pay off the national debt. (A laugh.) The change in the resolutions had thrown some light upon the Government plan, but if it had been a proposal to pay off the national debt it could not be described in language more glowing than by the right hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. Now, the house, he repeated, ought to have a clear conception of what the Government originally proposed to do, what they now proposed to do, and what might be done if the house supported the proposal of the Government. He would trouble the house with the note which he had made upon the original resolution, for he had not seen the amended resolution until he entered the house. The measure before the house was a great financial question, and must be viewed in its completeness ; and he would therefore look at the effect of this resolution upon the 500,000,0001. of the Consols and the Three per Cents. The first proposal was, that the holders of stock s h ou ld rece i ve f or every 1001., 821. 10s. in a new stock of 34 per cent., which should be paid at the rate of 31. 10s. per cent. - until the sth of January, 1894. Now, he would not contrast the compa rative advantage of this and the next proposition, or enter upon the question whether they had a correlative value. This had been touched upon with great lucidity by his hon. and learned friend (Sir F. Kelly). He would only show the effect of the proposal of the Government, so that the house might clearly know whether they would gain a proportionate advantage in the step they were asked to take. What was the debtor and creditor account with the country upon this first proposition, viewed in its possible com pleteness 'and in its effect upon the 500,000,000/. ? If the 500,000,000/. were all converted upon this proposal, the result would be, that, instead of paying, as at present, 15,000,0001. a year, we should only pay 14,437,5001., and this would be a gain of 562,5001. a year. What would be the effect of agreeing to the second proposition ? It was, that the holder of every 1001. should receive 1101. in the new stock of 24 per cent. until 1894. Now, what would be the effect upon the 500,000,0001. if it were converted accordingly into this new stock? The fundholder would of course at present receive' his 15,000,0001., but if the con version took place under the second option he would re ceive 13,750,0001., which would be an annual diminution of burden, not of 562,0001., but of 1,250,0001. per annum. So that the country would gain 1,250,0001. per annum, but would be saddled with an addition to the public debt of 50,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) What would be the effect of the third resolution if it were carried? The third pro posal was, that for every 1001. the holder should receive an Exchequer bond for the like amount, carrying interest at the rate of 21. 15s. until 1864, and then at the rate of 21. 10s. until 1894. Now, the country would gain 1,250,0001. until 1864, an d 2,500,0001. , thence to 1894, but the Government would be bound to repay the whole 500,000,0001. These were the proposals viewed with re ference to their action upon the national debt, for that was the true test of. their operation. Now, what aspect had the question assumed since the new edition of the re solutions ? The alteration was very laudable, and the resolutions might now be more safe and easy to carry into execution, particularly if they were carried out to the pos sible effect which he had anticipated. But, after the admissions that had been made, the alterations that had been introduced to their notice, and the explanations that had been given, did this question any longer possess that magnitude of interest which it had when they woke that morning? (Hear, hear.) Let the house observe how the character of these three different propositions were changed. The first proposition he would now take up was the last one he had mentioned a little ago. It was the proposal as to the Exchequer bonds. They were limited in amount in the original proposition, having been fixed at 30,000,0001. ; but the right hon. gentleman, in his state ment, candidly informed them that, though he had limited himself to 30,000,0001. as the amount of these bonds, he should not hesitate to come to Parliament—for fresh aid and assistance in carrying the scheme still further, if he found it successful. And of course he contemplated that by the aid of these Exchequer bonds he would be success ful in his operations on the 500,000 2 000/. But had the dis cussion of that evening supported this idea? Had the speeches, even of these* who upheld the statement of the Minister, sanctioned that anticipation ? On the contrary, all that had been said—and what had been said had been uttered with great propriety, whether by those who were favourable or opposed to the proposition—all showed that, the Exchequer bond might be made an instrument in fi nance, and a valuable one—one that the commercial man would use, but that it was an instrument limited in its use. He now came to the second proposition, following out a train exactly opposite to that which he pursued at first ; he came to that second proposition, which had astonished and alarmed the country, and even the hon. gentleman opposite. (Mr. Laing), who had addressed the house with so much ability. They , were not to act upon the 500,000,0001. by the second proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had altered his resolution, but what he (Mr. Disraeli) wished to impress upon the house was that by this second proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which, according to the hon. gentleman opposite, would enormously increase the debt, and accordinc , to the Secretary to the Treasury would greatly diminish * it, —according to this proposition there were no indications of any great dealing with the public burdens—nothing that could in any degree authorise those magnificent laudations that were indulged in by the right hon. member for Coventry. (Hear.) The new stock was to be limited to 30,000,0001.! (Hear, hear.) And this 30,000,0001. was to produce those extraordinary effects which the right hon. member for Coventry described with so glowing an imagination when he was prompted to pro nounce these resolutions as embodying the most wonderful financial propositions ever made. (Hear, hear.) It was neither the second nor the third proposition, then, that wont to deal largely with the debt of the country. (Hear. ) Then there was the first proposition, the power and in fluence, of which was not to be diminished. It was to exercise its great moral influence on the public burdens, and its singular effects were to justify the descriptions so vividly given by the hon. member for Coventry. (Hear, hear.) But then, unfortunately, the first proposition was the only proposition that everybody decried. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) It was the only proposition not limited in its operation, and the very proposition that, on all sides, was admitted could have no effect at all on the public burdens. (Hear, hear.) That was probably, the reason why the noble lord would not consent to a little more time to discuss the subject hereafter, be cause he wished the country to understand that it was not, after all, a question of any importance. (A laugh.) Then what were they going to do? (Hear, hear.) What was all this pother about ? (A laugh.) Why had they this matter announced before the budget was brought forward, and a sort of special announcement made that resolutions of the utmost importance were to be pro posed, heralded, let him remind the committee, by rumours of great interest and magnitude ? (" Hear," and a laugh.) The funds rose on these rumours ; they said now it was a mistake, but still they rose—(a laugh)—and then the reso lutions;the moment: the committee met to deliberate upon them, were changed—'(a laugh)--changed to such a degree that it seemed totally impossible they could, by carrying such resolutions, fulfil what must have been the original object of them—to deal powerfully and practically with the public debt. (Hear.) The great object, the right hon. member for Coventry said, of these resolutions—this unex ampled feat of finance—was to create a 24 per cent. fund. That was the great object. Every age had its great object whioh it wished to achieve. This was a financial age, and at all cost and by all means they must create a 24 per cent. fund. (Hear, hear.) But the curious thing was, that two propositions were put before them to create funds—one was to create a 34 per cent. fund, and the other a 24 per cent. fund. Now, it was remarkable that all the m ag i ca l influ ences which had been enlarged upon were to be produced by the 34 per cent. If by any chance they were to operate largely on the public debt, they were to operate by means of the 34 per cent. fund, and not by the 24 per cent. fund, though they had been told that to establish this 24 per cent. fund was the great end which they were to labour to achieve. (Hear, hear.) Then, if the only object was to create a 24 per cent. fund, it appeared to him that it could have been done by simpler means. (Hear, hear.) They , could have funded a portion of Exchequer-bills, and ac customed the people to receive 24 per cent. funds. They might have done it by means that other Ministers had had had recourse to before without exciting the whole country with an idea that the public burdens were going to be entirely done away with—that a new machinery had been invented by which the whole debt of the country would be removed. (A laugh.) But they were going to have a 24 per cent. fund to a limited extent by the second resolution, and they were increasing the public debt of the country to the amount of 4,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) It would have been cheaper to have funded a portion of Ex chequer bills for that also. But it was not financial relief that was wanted. (Hear.) What they seemed to want was a model, a sort of normal financial farm. (A laugh.) They wanted to have a stook, no matter how if it only paid 24 per cent. That se eme d t o b e th e object that it was not impossible they might obtain. (Hear, hear.) But he thought it was of great i mportance—though these resolutions were to pass without any division that night, on the understanding that in so doing they were only as senting to the Minister of Finance bringing in a bill on the subject—it was of importance that the country, after all the excitement that had occurred, should have a real idea of this question. (Hear, hear.) He was not sure that the propositions before them might not be charac terised by all that was sensible and judicious ; but they did not profess to do much, and he thought they would do less than they p ro f e ssed to do. (A laugh.) But it was just as well that the country should know what th e y wore going to do, and n o t to be left under the impres sion that the public debt was going to be largely reduced. (Hear, hear.) More complicated and ingenious machinery, to produce so slight a result, appeared to him never to have been devised by the subtlety and genius of the most skilful casuist. (Hear, hear.) In St. Thomas Aquinas there was a chapter that speculated upon the q uestion n of how many angels could dance on the point of a neec e. (A laugh.) It was one of the rarest productions of hum an genius--(a laugh)— and he recognised in th ese resolutions something of that master mind. (A laugh.) He should be happy if; after due deliberation, they arrived with general unanimity at some safe conclusions on the subject. But, as it was Friday night, he should be sorry if her Majesty's subjects should go to their slumbers with the belief that the na tional debt was going to be paid off. (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) Captain LAFFAN made some observations to show what would be the different effects of the first two propo sitions in the case of two individuals who might commute, sa y, 1001. each, into the two new descriptions of stock. At the end of 40 years the one would find himself more beneficially situated than the other. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not go into these minute questions ; but begged to say that the h on . gentleman treated the national debt as if it was a sum that the public creditor had a right to recover from the . nation. Now, he had no such right. The public never entered into an engagement to pay the public creditor. All they did was to agree to pay the national creditors certain perpetual annuities, and these perpetual annuities were, if the public thought fit, redeemable on certain terms, the terms on which they were redeemable +being the payment of a certain sum of money. (Hear, hear.) The individuals of whom the hon. gentleman spoke would not get their 1101. or their 981. 10s., unless it was the interest of the State to give it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MALINS impugned the proposition that England had no other liability towards the public creditor than that of paying a perpetual annuity. Strictly and legally , speaking that might be correct, but practically the doc trine was most erroneous. (Hear, hear.) Tho first resolution, which was as follows, was then agreed to : • "1. That the capital trading stock of the Corporation of the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encouraging the fishery, which is called and known by the name of South Sea Stock : the capital stocks cf the 31. per Centum Annuities, called and known by the name of the Old South Sea Annuities and by the name of the New South Sea Annuities : the capital stock of the 31. per Centum Annuities, created by an act passed in the twelfth year of King George the First, intituled, An Act for granting to his Majesty the sum of 1,000,0001., to be raised by way of lottery,' called and known by the name of the Bank Annuities 1726: and the capital stock of the 31. per Centum Annuities, created by an act passed in the twenty-fourth year of King George the Second, intitul e d An Act for granti ng t o h is Majesty the sum of 2,100,0001., to be raised by annuities and a lot tery, and charged on the Sinking Fund, redeemable by Parliament,' called and known by the name of the 31. per Centum Annuities 1751, shall be paid off and redeemed. The second resolution was thou read as follows : " 2. That every person, body politic and corporate, who now is, or hereafter may be, interested in the capital stocks of any of the said 31. per Centum Annuities, who shall, in manner hereinafter directed, give notice at any time on or before Friday, the 3d day of June, 1853, of his assent to receive other government securities in lieu and in place of the said capital stocks of the said annuities, in stead of being paid in money, shall, at the option of the said parties, receive for eve r y 1001. th ereo f , 8 21 . 10s. i n a a New Stock of Three-and-a-Half per Centum An nuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the rate of 3L 10s. per centum per annum until the sth day of January, 1894, from and after which clay the said annui tiea shall be subject to redemption by Parliament; or for every 100/. of the said capital stocks of annuities the sum of 1101. in a New Stock of Two-and-a-Half per Centum Annuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the rate of 21. 10s. per centum per annum until the sth d a y of January, 1894, f rom an d after which day the said annuities shall be subject to redemption by Par liament ; or for every sum of 1001. of the capital Stocks of the said 31. per Centum Annuities, an Exchequer Bond for the like amount payable to the bearer, and carrying interest at the rate of 2/. 15s. per centum per annum, payable half-yearly,, on the Ist day of March and the Ist day of September in every year, until the Ist day of September in a year to be named in such bond, and not later than Ist September, 1864, inclusive, and thenceforth 21. 10s. per centum per annum, payable half-yearly in like manner, until and including the Ist of September, 1894, and thereafter to be subject to redemption at par, at the option of the holder ; or at the option of the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, as shall be named in such bond." Mr. DISRAELI thought it right, before this resolution was agreed to, to warn the committee that, from the alter ations made in the resolution, from the admissions made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from various other statements, this was, in fact, the important resolu tion. He wished the committee to bear this in mind, and he protested against the supposition that, by allowing the resolution to pass, he for one assented to it. If the committee agreed to the conversion of the whole of 500,000,0001., under the second resolution, he must remind the committee that the profit to the country would but little exceed 550,0001. a-year ; and they should well consider whether, for such an object as reducing the interest of the debt by 500,0001. sterling, they would do right to fix the rate of interest at 2A per cent. for more than 40 years. (Hear.) That was a most important point, which the committee appeared to be disposing of in almost a formal manner, but it was a point to which they must give deliberate attention. The interest guaranteed was higher than he, for one, thought would prevail during the next 40 years. (Hear, hear.) It was an enormous respon sibility to undertake t o make such an arrangement, and he trusted the committee, when they came to discuss the sub ject on a future occasion, would think it their duty most carefully to consider whether they would assent to it. (Hear, The resoltition was then agreed to, together with the four subsequent resolutions, as follows : " 3. That the Conamissioners of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised and empowered to fix the number of years during which the interest of 21.155. per cent. shall be pay able on such bond, subject to the limitation of the fore going resolution, and likewise to determine whether such bond, after the Ist of September, 1894, shall be redee ma bl e at their option only, or shall also be redeemable at the option of the holder, and that the said Commissioners shall give notice in the London Gazette of what they shall deter mine in these respects as soon as may be after the passing of any act in pursuance of these resolutions. "4. That the dividends and interest payable on such New 31. 10s. per Centum Annuities, on such New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, and on such Exchequer Bonds, shall be charged and chargeable upon the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. " 5. That the dividends now payable by law on sth July and sth January in every year on the said Capital Trading Stock and on the said capital stock of New South Sea An nuities, annuities 1726, and annuities 1751, shall continue payable until the sth January, 1854, inclusive, and no longer. " That the dividends now payable by law on 10th Octo ber and sth April in every year on the said capital stock of Old South Sea Annuities shall continue payable until sth April, 1854, inclusive, and no longer. - " 6. That if the Corporation of the Governor and Com pany of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encouraging the fishery, shall at any time on or before Friday, the 3d day of June, signify to the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury their assent to commute and exchange the said capital trading stock, or any part thereof, into any one or mote of the said 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/. lOs. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, the said corporation shall be permitted to make such commutation and exchange upon the same terms, and subject to the like conditions, as are granted to the person or persons, bodies politic or corporate, interested in, or entitled to, the capi tal stock of 3/. per Centum Annuities now proposed to be paid off and redeemed." The seventh resolution was then • read by the Clerk as follows : "7. That all and every person or persons, bodies politic or corporate, possessed of any part of the said 3/. per Cen tum Annuities, and who shall desire to signify his, her, or their assent to receive the said New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/. 10s. par Centum Annuities, or Exche quer Bonds in lieu thereof, shall on or before the 3d day of June, 1853, but within the usual hours of transacting busi ness at the Bank of England, or at the South Sea House, by themselves or some agent or agents for thatpurpose duly au thorised, signify to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, or to the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas, as the case may be, such assent in writing under his, her, or their haud or hands or the hand or hands of his, her, or their agent or agents, together with the amount of his, her, or their respective share or shares in the said 3/. per Centum Annuities, and which said assent shall be entered in a book or books to be opened and kept by the said governor and company of the Bank of England and by the said governor and com pany of merchants of Great Britain trading to tL., South Seas for that purpose; and in case of any transfer of such share or shares of such annuities, or any part or parts thereof, after such assent, the part or parts of such annuities so transferred shall be entered in the said book or books separately from the said 3/. per Centum Annuities, in respect of which no sech assent shall be signified, and every such person or persons so assenting, or his, or her or their assigns, or the executors or administrators of such assigns, under any suc h t rans f er, shall b e ent i t l e d f or every 100/. capital stock of the said 3/. per Centum An nuities to 32/. 10s. of the capital stock of New 3/. 10s. per. Centum Annuities, or to 1101. of the capital stock of the New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or to an Exchequer Bond of 1001. bearing interest as aforesaid : provided always that if any person or persons holding any such 3/ Centum United Annuities, shall not b e w ithin the limits of Ki 3d (iay of ngdomatani un t e ine m3 bet, both weenth i L l B u t s h ive d,aybuotfshaApurible in the • any other part of Europe, itsahsaslelat at bel an aw y fu t l im fo e brsekuchreptehre son or persons to signify such 30th day of July, 185a3n;y t a itime 'fbetween such person the Bth day or persons shall not at be within any part o of April, 1853, and f E th u e rop 3 o o ; 30th h it shall day be of lawt il l y for l hi Bs m 3, her, or them to signify February, bru arY. the Ist day of 1854 such person or pers ons su ch assent at any time before satisfaction of th e Governor or D e p u ty proving to the of his,iEngland,r,.o r otrhteoht. absence bs Governor ence .f omo! the t h e_ s t u v t e h r Governor Company, out of Europe, as above specified, and United Kingdom, or Bank of of any Eng England, or or o r mo more Governortrustee a and that Annuities his, her,stood or o their h s s , h a her,re or o r s shares nameofs uc h 0 or names per res Centum pee. name f or t a h t r h e h e ß a ir a b n e ehalf, in the books of the Gover norttr trustees, l ta y en , e( o is , r eo i n on t t hn h ips e a, nhyer provided also, that emn s tu,,oe within out t r io s i person n tEe onu Europe, days of Merchant Traders to the South Seas on the 3d Company United Kingdom." aftersE d ayO n al s l ° EI hs f o i igjsan:blihasfyeeen:t 3:1-uof8:r5ho3tmhh: his, f h r the returneUr , n i o t r e United oh K eti i hr n e t s cl s e In h answer CHANCELLOR ttichn!inErairiLWa goieß:oeinfNtstoh°feNt'hEXCHEQUEßesou t South Sea debt, a d e t said - that, as roger not take credit for ad a a n ty present saving forwhatever. h management 0 nthe contrary, of thentrarY debt a e i rhat was nothingwaspossiblepaid there might be an i ncrease d expense o ps '2OO/. a-year under that head. Th e h on. gentle ma'h had asked whether there was not a large amount of South Sea Stock at 3i per cent. He believed the state of the case was this-the South Sea Company had assigned to th e m a sum of 600,0001. in 3 per cent. Consols, in compen sation for certain privileges of exclusive trade which they gave up. They were holders of 3 per cent. stock, just like other holders of the same security, and their practice was, he believed, to take the dividends on that sum of 600,000/., and to distribute them regularly among their own mem bers. The practical effe c t o f thi s was, as the hon. gentle man said, that the South Sea Stock holder did receive per cent., the company adding per cent. The resolution was then agreed to, together with the following remaining resolutions " 8. That provision shall be made for paying off such proprietor or p ropr i etors of any of the said Capita Trading Stock or Capital Stocks of Annuities before mentioned, as shall not signify his assent to accept and receive New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, in lieu. thereof. " 9. That every person or persons, body politic or corporate, who now is, or hereafter may be, interested in or entitled to any part of the capital stock of the Consolidated 3/. per Centum Annuities, or of the Capi tal Stock of the Reduced 3/. per Centum Annuities, payable at the Bank of England, or at the Bank of Ireland, and 185 w 3 h , o sig sli n a if ll y t a o t t a h n e y G t i o m v e e rnt be r f o a r n e a t h c e om lO p t a h n y d day of October, the Bank of England, or to the Governor and Company of the Bank of Ireland, by an entry to be made in books to be opened for such purpose, his desire to commute and ex change any or all of the said annuities to which he may bo entitled, into any one or more of the said New 31. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, shall be permitted , to make such com mutation and exchange upon the same terms and subject to the like conditions as are granted to the person or per sons, bodies politic or corporate, interested in or entitled to the Capital Stocks of 3/. per Centum Annuities pro posed to be he paid off and redeemed as aforesaid. " 10. That nothing herein contained shall extend to authorise the commutation of the said Conolidated 3/. per Centum Annuities, or the said Reduced 3/. per Centum Annuities, into the said New 2/. 10s. per Cent= Annui ties, after the amount.entered for commutation into such Yew 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities in the said books of the Bank of En D rland and Bank of Ireland, shall have rerched the sum of 39,0D0,000/. ; and that .the power of commutation of the said 31. per Centum Stocks shall there After b 3 limited to the two other options herein before given ; that is to say, the option of exchange for 3/. 103. per Centum Annuities, and the option of exchange for Exchequer Bonds." "11. that the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised and empowered to issue at any lime between the sth of April, 1353, and the sth of. April, 1851, Ex chequer Bonds, payable to bearer, upon the like terms and conditions as hereinbefore described, and after public no tice in the London Gazette, from time to time to sell such Exchequer Bonds, or any part thereof, and to apply the proceeds in redeeming any part of the capital trading stock or capital stock of annu iti es now proposed to be paid off and redeemed, or in purchasing and cancelling any Exchequer Bills, or in ex hanging such Bonds for Exchequer Bills, upon such terms as the said Commissioners shall think proper, or in purchasing and cancelling any of the Consolidated 3/. per Centum Annuities, or ReducCd 3/. per Centum Annui ties, payable at the Bank of England or at the Bank of Ireland, as the case may be. " 12. That the interest on such Exchequer Bond shall be i, , ,sited and chargeable on the said Consolidated Fund. " 13. That no amount of such Exchequer Bonds shall b o charged exceeding in the whole the snnr of thirty millions. " 14. That it shall be lawful for the Accountant. , General of the Courts of Chancery in England and Ireland respectively, and for the Accountant in Bankruptcy in in England, at any time before the 3d day of June, 1853, to sr;nify to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, or to the Corporation of the Governor and Com pany of the Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encou raging the fishery, on behalf any suitor or suitors, or others interested 3/. per Centum Annuities hereinbefore referred to, standing in the names of such Accountants-General and Accountant respectively, their assent to accept and receive shares in the said New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bond s , i n li eu of all such Si. per Cen t= Annuities standing in their. names respectively ;• and the said Accountants -General and Accountant respectively shall be fully indemnified against all actions, suits, and proceedings for and in respect of any action, matter, or thing done by them respectively in pursuance ' thereof. " 15. That all executors, administrators, guardians and trustees interested in or en titl e d to any part of the ca pital • stock of the Old South Sea 3/. per Centum Annuities, of the New South Sea 3/. per Centauri Annuities, of th o 31. per Centum Annuities created by the Act 12th George the First, of the 31. per Centum Annuities created by the Act 24th Georg e the Second, o f th e C onsolidated 37. per Centum Bank Annuities, and of the Reduced 37. per Centum Bank Annuities, whether payable at the Bank of England or at the Bank of Ireland, as the case may be, who shall signify their desire to convert the Annuities to which they may be respectively interested into any of the New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/. 10s. pet Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, shall be de tnnified." The CHANCELLOR of the . EXCHEQ UER gave notice that he would, on Monday next, bring forward certain re solutions of form which would constitute the notice to parties. The house then resumed. The motion, that the house on its rising do adjourn until Monday, was then put and agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped the hon. gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Wilson), did not intend to force any votes upon the house to-night. These estimates had not been delivered until yesterday, and then accom panying them were the Chancellor of the Exchequer's re solutions, to which he had devoted his attention; and he had had, therefore, no time to give to the consideration of these estimates, the contents of which hon. m em b ers c ar tainly ought have an opportunity of examining before they came under discussion. The estimates of 1830, when the late Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister, amounted to 1,050,0001. ; under Sir R. Peel's Government, in 1835,_, they amounted to 2,100,0001. • but they were now 4,500,0004. He wished for an opportunity of examining into the cause • of this extrao r di nar y i ncrease , an d h e s h ou ld t a k e the sense of the house on the subject, unless he received 1 113 assurance that no votes would be taken to-night. EXAMINATION OF CANDIATES FOR THE DIPLOMA TIC SERVICE. Mr. EWART rose to call attention to the expediency °I instituting an examination of candidates for the diplomat° service. He believed it was the intention of the late G°: vernment, and he hoped - it was the intention of the present Government, to see whether they could not introduce son° species of examination for that important department-" the diplomatic service of this country. He would not , of course, insist upon an examination in the case of th e higher functionaries, but he believed the subordinate appointments would be much better filled if the candidate' for those offices had to undergo a preliminary examination , in which the knowledge of foreign languages should foria an important part. (He a r.) I our own country this system had been established in regard to appointments in the army and navy ; it had bee n success f u ll y adopted !!: other countries, and he th o ught it was hi g h ti me it shout,L; be applied to diplo ma ti c as we ll as t o o th er d epar t men t' here. He had great hopes, too, that the Indi an p a t ron ae would before long be bestowed on a system of free public examinations, where the best qualified would be the ens cessful candidates. Meanwhile, he wished to know w hether the inquiries promised by the late Government upon the subject of an examination for candidates for diplomat'; appointments had been proceeded with, and whether th present Government had com e t o any d ec i s i on on the sair ject ? Lord J. RUSSELL could not say that, &tiring the shorl time ho had held the seals of the Foreign-office, he hs j paid attention to the subject ; but he had heard from Lor Clarendon (so w e un d ers t oo d) th a t all the papers were n°_,` t . 0 completed, and that no bl e l or d wou ld pro b a bl y t a k e On' steps upon them. Lord STANLEY—This subj ec t h a d b een presse d on ti le attention of the late Government, and the result of thge r ° i, i ,i sideration given was to show that there were no rat i by objecti ons t o th e adoption of the system recommended the honourable gentleman. It was considered that the should be a preliminary examination, and sub sequ ontlY second and snore rigid test previous t o which tb e i candidate could not be con s id ere d t o h ave fairly enteret the diplomatic servi ce . Th a t was a mere outline of the scheme which he deemed it most advisable ' l7 adopt, if there was to b a an exam i na ti on„ but it orso impossible to look a t it w ith ou t t a ki ng t h e wide and more comprehensive view—namely, whether they wPw . ,, keep up the diplomatic service as a profession—(heat, such as the military profession, for example. They partial'/ adopted that theory, and . on the strength of a person '-` 0 voting himself to the diplomatic service he was entitled ;' ,l a pension. It was doubtful to him whether they colt, render diplomacy a profession in that sense. The boil' would recollect the difference of the system pursued in th e United States, and it was well known that in India perse", were not prim e d u p f or th a t serv i ce, b u t were selecte d frosi those military and civil officers whose qualifications br o , entitled th em t o di sc h arge its duties. In our own diPi matic service we b ro k e t h rough, in practice, the rule r 0 o had laid d own i n theory, and nothin was more conaral than to pl ace men w h o had not previously'filled diploma; offices, or who had not received a diplomatic education,,!j high posts. (H ear , h ear. ) " In point of fact they viola ts" their own theory. They laid it down as a rule—or none nally as a rule—that those who were to conduct busineis must be educated as for a profession, but they dl v not adhere to the practice. It was his opinion —his OW individual opinion, that they mi g ht p l ace th e whole diPl'ro matic service on a:different footing —that they might ha w a body of men correspon di ng with those employed in to inferior offices of our civil service at home, employed at ti 6 missi ons a b roa d ; and if so, they might' throw open' diplomatic ser v i ce ; an d b y d o i ng away w i th retiringP jr sions, effect a great saving for the country. He had, LW ever, no hesitation in saying, that if they continued make the diplomatic service a profession, then, in order to guard agai ns t abuses, it was essentially necessary to es_ t :j blish som e t es t , so that those who were incapable of gv",„ service to th e coun t ry should be unable to enter on diP'" macy as a profession. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON said, that with regard to The I' d - I question to which his hon. friend (Mr. Ewart) had referr,„„. he 'begged to state that when he held the seals of the I' d reign -office he did take steps with a view of establish" an examination fur the junior members of the diplomat / 0 service. His notion was very much like what had he,,, e stated by th e no bl e l ord who had just a dd resse d th e tion t sl that a mode ra t e examination might be established ee, those who were candidates for the office of unpaid attaeu i which was th e fi rs t step, and that a more complete exam nation should take place with regard to candidate s for office of paid attaché. He entered into a negotiation 01 1 the authorities of the London University, and took c o° l ,'"; examination de steps t h t a o t w l a v towards s t o establishing place. o f w o r ev t' a : bound to say, that he did not concur in all the o P in r;:l which the n o bl e l or d had expressed. The noble seemed to think that it would be better to change the isting system o f our diplomatic arrangements, .7 t-h longer co ns id er i t as a sort of professional body, Wl 'f' the noble lord quo t e d , as an example, the practice ° United St a t es , B ut the house must recollect t h e e ntire difference between th e con diti on o f th e U n it e d Stal l :, with regard to th e i r re l a ti ons w ith fore i gn coun t r i es , a° the conditi on o f thi s country in respect to its foreign 5 lotions. The United States, except, perhaps, in 1 ,„ country and in F rance, had hardly any i n t erests to mai', tain or any object s to• a ccom plish with any o th er of tiloi? ,6 countries of th e E uropean cont i nen t. I f the noble lo rd wanted an exam pl e to l oo k a t , l e t hi m l ook at the exam(' ' of those coun t r i es which h a d th e greatest interest and 0; fluence in Europe. What was done by France ? Wit; was done by Russia ? What was done by Aust r i a ? by all those countries it was thought to be of great adv 7: Cage to e m ploy men who train e d th eir minds to the mat tors with which they had to deal. ( Hear, hear.) It 70 thought in those countries e x p e di ent to employ persons do a thing who undietrsmtoiogdhtthbee athllinvgerythpatlewasaasnttotobeenidpe% Now, swCountyy n ears at foreign courts, and see, through ' o f who might wish to travel I s , he diplomatic service, any body of friends, mpg ( L ea ens a ast u nl ages gentlemen oe t e e fwn r ) the Government who might choose so to employ thew; (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord admitted it was exp o client the i n f er i or offices of the diplomatic sort. should he fill ed by those very men whom he nevertm less said h e wished to see abolished ; and yet the i,p lord at the same time was of opinion that we mi g ht safe have a p erson appointed superior Minister to a foret, court who was ignorant of his duty, provided he wasi j o sisted by a diplomatic official who knew it ; an d where' fit subordi na t e off i cial could write the letters of his igno'j,o superior, and read to him and make hi m un d ers t an d " s letters he received. (Laughter.) Let th e h ouse on ly ef i ceive this ignorant' superior going to a conference w ith o Minister of t'ho country to which he was accredited et i , v question involving an intimate knowledge of the law of tions, a familiar acquaintance with politics, and with 4 of stipulations of treaties ! I mag i ne t h at ignorant supet 1 4, called upon by the Minister of that country to give his 0 ,.13, nion under such circumst ances ! H e could not say, " Vfroo sir ; I must send for my secretary. lam here only O a i 4 the ornamental part.; the man w h o i s t o d o the busine;.lo in my office at home ; yo u mus t a ll ow sue to send for P. before I can solve you r question or give you an r , (Laughter.) The great matterwas that the man w ho P o , to do the business should understand how to do the b ti v ness that was to be done. (Laughter.) However, 0 0 would say this, that it was the fashion for many pet li s to speak dispar ag i ng l y of the diplomatic body of 'oiti country. He had had some experience of that body, t d he could say, w ith t h e utmost sincerity, that he ll found no G overnment in Europe, better served he W ° {l; o not say, but s o we ll served, or so well informed, as si Government of this country had been by its differ t io l ' diplomatic agents, or who had received such correc t or formation as to the real state of foreign countries.' 0 4 as to what wa s go i ng to take place ; and that at ° o ar, when the agent s o f other countries had been led into e 01 and misled either with respect to the existing stat e ol things, or of the then expected events. But he was g ° 4 l4 to say that that w hi c h the noble lord had called a.'