The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

ch . g .suchLordships a ocuort course w e as o Il i d y imagine what a beneficial tioe fproduce on the constieu ° t hat if lirgued • -- -(Hear, hear.) A Noble Lord lied t if this measure were to pass, every soldier The 4 a the expiration of ten years, leave the army. argllnsent of the Noble Lord, however, went on the BaPPesition that every soldier would be so dissatisfied With hi s at _ enc_ondition, that he would wish to leave the ranks %hair, dof ten years. He (Lord Grey) did not think • th o tn e e na seldier would ' be so anxious to leave the army tinder the of ten years as he wa s a t presen t, because _, news ystem an improved condition t i tak Vi e ace would the soldier, and the o ffi cers knowing that th at rn a . would have the power to leave at the end of fors 4 t r te lo r d e , st veoul d d do their utmost to promote the scomh fwelfare of Rohe princi p l ea the men under them. Such the Bill. Their Lordships would, th ey sou sight have an opportunity of deciding whether Shoat the period of ten years too long or too to present their Lordships were required only b e l ' as i t i l c U i the principles of the Bill. He mignt perhaps nf the ett to state what he thought would be the result b e working of this measure but to such a question eould tinder Mr. 44 , Only reply that the experience which they had Wyndharn's Act, was so short that it is u n t i ly did not afford su ffi cient grounds for coming to !i Y at t ;y °ll , e , i ni ti c si i ". upon the subject, though he thought that whie4 concl us i o n could be drawn from the short period favo ur of that Act was iu operation, it was somewhat in itop orta the Present measure. It was, however, of great ditie n o nc e to provide some means fur raising the the con teeter army, and for getting rid of the bad cha- Whoc which the army derived from tke bad characters went ° , l33 Posgd it; let it once be considered as a punish. doubt Lo be dismissed from the army, and he had no public t hat the character of the army would then rise in flail e d este em. Such a punishment was one much more thet . to the feelings of the public of this country than th is SY the infliction of the lash. By the a loption of disp o rn s e t a sore the country would also always have at its for t t a numerou s t ra i ne d population ready to came v as a ` .l in the s erv i ce o f t h e coun t r y. Such a system fo und to work we ll i n Prussia, where almost • th Of th! Population were compelled for a period T h -Lee years to serve in the army. — ( I le er. ) %twat such a course tended to improve the strength ad d to th e sta bili ty o f a continental country it e „,,"usSia ther e cou ld be no doubt, but although as tts `" l ght be considered necessary fr.r Prussia it A n also equally necess ary for this country, th ' l et had been passed in the last session for enrolling When Chelsea pensioners, with a view to active service n required. Under this Act upwards of 13,000 per tlals had already been enrolled, and it was quite surpris- N to see with w h at a bili ty t h ey per f ormed t h e var i ous Z Ze rcises.—(Hear, hear.) This torte KoalJJ, therefore, be of great service to this country in time of war in garrisoning the towns of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the e ther towns of the coast. But if this measure were to Pass there would be a still greater number of men ready trained and in the prime and vigour of life, ready at a moment's notice to come funs - wad for the defence Of the country, without the great expense at !endant upon a standing army, though it would ran equally effective force. He anticipated f r om this measure that the effect would be, that a smaller number of men would be required for the f Service of the army, the country having that res rv e d °tee upon which to fall back. Gratuitous discharges ;ad been g i ven to soldiers of good character during the W Past ears; and the persons who availed themselves o f t hosedischarges did no t amoun t t o mere th an thr ee thre e - and-a•half per cent. At present the great ex nlent against the dismissal of the bad soldier was, that if it w ere carried int o e ff ec t t h e goo d so ldi er wou ld mis h• uet himself for the purpose of obtaining his dis arge. There could be no doubt that they would lose eiv a lY of the very best of their men, who would obtain (tileasPPointruents. He hoped that they might do so _ th e s r ' he ar)—for nothing would tend so much to render se' not tied it as the knowledge that the men were employment to it for life, but that they might obtain other th at at the end of their term. He believed that sen wa s One of the r easons w hy ti the French service, in e ise e f th e lowness of its ay, was more pop ~ ler than sine E nglish, He thought that the next point of import the, to which th ey should d i rect the i r attent i. n , was amou n th e „ A of pension which should bd given at sh eul ` ri u of the usual period of service. There be some m eans o f encouragement h e ld o ut t o the self Z2 l r . d after the period of his retirement to join him sic aw.ith companies of pensioners, who would be occa ev i ? . ll Y called out to do duty on certain days in the :I% r It would require very little or no pains to induce ;le to do this, for in addition to the small annual the Pleasure, which would be given to them, they would have o P l easure, and h e b e li eve d t h at i t wou ld b e no sma ll e a ' r °f again meeting in the ra n ks their old compa n i ons see,, Ins. The a mount o f pens i ons to b e g i ven to t h ese go when they became incapable of supporting them the any longer by their own lehour, was 6d. per of day. Pension but Lord near him smiled at the amount the ef u 3 6l ° ll , but he could assure the House, that the amount r a „_ 3 : GI per week in addition to n hat alit r means a by saving might have provided, or might be still t,tiabled to earn by light labour, was by no means con sidered as as a trifling matter. Any increase I sum i n a pension would b e f oun d t o b e mos t e vwureesse to the country, f or it wo o l I o ff er t o many t h e r a ntattes of retiring u p on their p ens i ons w hil e t h ey e sti ll capable of service. In 1829, when a m a n atter a • upo a service of twenty-one years was allowed to retire Pension of Is. per day, it was fouud that the bur l d l e th at 1 . 1 upon the country was becoming so very serious t e_ It was compelled to be discontinued. Many of ..""e men were only thirty-eight, thirty-nine, and forty Years of ag e when they retired, and it was well known that they l eft the service upon the large pension, while Still perfectly capable of doing further duty. There been also a great abuse in another regulation which had L wen introduced since, namely, the payment of the pen sion to soldiers who were after a certain period incapable Of doing further duty, and were discharged from the ranks. The consequence of that was, that a man who had ruined ' his constitution by the practice of drinking ardent spirits passed the Chelsea Board, and obtained his discharge and pension, while those men who had conducted themselves well, and were fit for further service were retained. In order to obviate such abuses it Was proposed that the men in the ranks should re ceive a trifling increase of pay for good conduct. The amount of the increased payment was under certain cir cumstances to be added to their pension, and that in creased payment would bo regulated in amount accord ing to the period of service. He had now touched upon all the principal heads of this measure. It was one Which from its complexity and importance demanded their Lordships most serious attention and considera tion. He left it in their hands, at the same time thank ing them for the kind indulgence he had received. Viscount COM BERMERE thought that this measure would not improve the condition of the army, and in this opi nion was borne out by the beet authorities upon the subject. T hey could not get a better class of men than those they h ad now in th e service. He denied that they could get a better class, but assum i ng that they did,how long would it take to bring n •" eal into a state of discipline, and having at last brought them into that st a t e h ow l ong would they be required to remain in a le anny afterwards? It would be an impossibility to retain ‘ ol e troops who were stationed in the colonies in the efficient state they were in at present, under the operation ot the new. " It em. They had 1 9 8 regiments in all, and of those 72 were cn foreign service. Why there were no less than 6,000 men ping nut ancireturning annually from these foreign possessions e took en intense interest in the welfare of the army, and it because he did so that he had felt called upon to trouble their Lordship at so muth length in opposition to the Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, the Nol le Lord, who had just sat down, need not have apologised to their Lordships far detaining them so long, for no Member of that House was more cap a bl e o f spea ki ng on t hi s sub j ect than himself. Still, h owever, he thought the Noble Marquis was wrong in the opinion he had formed on this Bill. He should be the last roan to support it if he felt that it would lead to a diminution of the old so l d i ers o f the army, but he was convinced that the ~ would produce no such result. No army could exist with out a sufficient number of old soldiers. In time of peace and War the efficiency of the service must be kept up, and that emild not be done without the army was well supplied with old soldiers. When any dangerous operations were to be performed, the old soldier was always the first to get an example of bravery. The old soldiers of this country were its safeguard, and if their Lordships passed any measure that was calculated unnecessarily to reduce their number, they virtually struck a blow at the defences of the nation. In all parts of Europe, in the Peninsular, iu North and South Ame rica,d in Africa, and in fi e in ete a, en th ts e a e rnisis te o w f , t l h e i t s aut e tty t t e a tr aardsniipiss,hgderergeretttoseaci achievements won? Why, through the instrumentality of the old soldier. He could not instance a better gu idance of, the high value of the old soldier t h an by rearm , d ing their Lordshps of the esteem in which he was held by Napoleon, and well he might, for through his instrumentality Napoleon won some of his greatest victories. The old soldiers were there fore the ablest defenders of their country, and nothing ought to be done which could tend to reduce their number. Now, it was his opinion that this Bill would riot have such an effect, and he would tell their Lordships why i:e thought so. Their Lordships must be aware that enlistment for a limited period had long existed in the army to a small extent, and although it had failed when carried out more extensively, it had suc ceeded in that limited form. This Bill, however, held out many inducements for good cendnct, and he was strongly im pressed with a conviction that these inducements would lead to a re-enlistment of the soldier at the expiration of the ten years. lie was, therefore, disposed to try the experiment of limited enlistment again, and lie entertained the liveliest hopes for its success. At the end of the Bill tee years, their Lordships would perceive by the that the soldier who had behaved himself during that t erm of servitude would be entitled to an additional pay of 4d. her day. and looking to the other inducements of pension and Promotion that the Bill held out, he must repeat his decided °Pinion that the soldier would became to comfortable in his s ituation, and so attached to the profession that he would be eertain to re-enlist. Of course his only anxiety was to secure t he efficiency of the public service, and he supported this Bill be cause he thought it was calculated to ensure that object. 'ie entreated their Lordships, therefore, to adopt it. For his o wn part he would do his best to carry it out. No doubt it i_snsuld involve the country in some slight additional expense, but the con di t i on of t h e soldier could not be improved without that l, risk. With regard to the Bill relating to the pensioner , Z e v , t hnught that measure was necessary , hut the pensio n er to — am Government ought to pay the most attention, were the vetran soldiers—those brave men who were the heart and soul and spirit of the regiment. What he wanted to see : a ; ',good conduct p revail in the army, and to see th em treated ...t " good treatme nt could be Produced , an d h e believed that a system like that pro posed by the Government , that n this m would have a greater effe c t i n p ro • be ad op te d th He believed good conduct, tha m ea sure would not have oter course which could effect apprehended by his Noble Friend, and that it would net remove the old soldiers from the regiment. He entreated their Lordships to adopt the measure.—(Hear, hear. ) The Duke of RICHMOND gave the Government the fullest credit for good actions with respect to the army, but he looked with extreme susp icion on the measure before their Lordships. H e con s id ere d that great evils would result to the army from this measu re . I ts effects would be most injurious n on tat p art o f the army which might be required for service the coast o f Africa, or other unhealthy places. His Noble Friend h a d stated that great improvements had taken place in tin he morals and conditions of the army in general. Why then t he name of Heaven, did they not leave well alone, and not attempti to introduc e any new and hazar d ous ex periment? Th is improvement had taken place in the army during a period of unlimited to 414,04 en l istment; why, then, did the Government wish sa Y clew 0 )1491u? He thought that it would be much better better if the Governtnent had made the period of en listment for the first for a term of fourteen years, and at the expiraii in of that time gave the soldier an opportunity of re enlistment for a period of seven years more. He thought that the better way to improve the coedition of the army would be, to increase the pensions to the soldiers. The principle upon which these pensions were bestowed were absurd and impolitic. It might be said that this would entail very great expense on the country ; the more expensive, however, war was made the better he liked it, for it would prevent the nation going to war upon such slight pretences as they were used to do. He felt the greatest interest in the condi tion of the private soldier and the non-commissioned officer, The infantry, the cavalry, and the ordnance of this country were the best in the world. The Bight Hon. the Secretary at War had most injudiciously and incorrectly stated that the army was at present in a state of slavery, in consequence of their having enlisted under the present mode. He totally denied that assertion. They might depend upon it, that if they should open those advantages to the soldier, they would not in duce him to get rid of the only failing the British soldier had to combat with. He would not. trouble their Lordships with any further observations, he thanked them for the attention they had bestowed upon the few remarks he had felt it necessary to make on the question. Lord S fltA HORD then addressed the House at some length, but his observations were perfectly inaudable in the gallery. Lord DE ROS had some doubt as to whether the induce ment held out by her Msjesty's Government to the old soldier would cause him to re enlist, or to join those bands of pen.. sioners of which mention hod been made. In the event of its nit being so, the most serious inconvenience would arise from the necessity of taking a large number of raw recruits to fill their room. In the cavalry, of which he was more qualified to speak than of the infantry, much serious inconvenience would arise from the recruits' want of knowledge with regard to their horses. They would require men who were experienced grooms, and not men who three months before had been tailors or shoe makers. He did not see hew such an evil was to be got over. On these grounds, and on others which he would not trouble their Lordships by stating, as the objections they contained had already been put forth by others, he should not support the Bill. Lord CLEVELAND said that he did not think that this measure would accomplish two of the great objects which it professed to accomplish, namely, that of inducing a better class of men to enlist in the army, or that of keeping them in the army when their period of anlistment hed expired. He thought that twenty years was the utmost period that a soldier should be called upon to serve, for their Lordships had to con sider that he had to bear the extremes of heat and cold—he had to undergo fatigues and privations, and the effect was that few after ten years' servitude could boast of a strong or healthy constitution. lie should certainly recommend that all soldiers discharged at the end of ten years servitude should have a pension of 6d. a day. Lord STANLEY said that he felt the greatest difficulty in dealing with this question, but his difficulties would have been greatly increased if he supposed that his Noble Friend the Duke who sat near him had recommended its adoption to the Government. But although the Noble Duke had declared his intention of voting for the second reading of the measure, still they might rather from his speech that he at best thought that the evils which were threatened by the measure might possibly be avoided, and they could easily gather from him, that he was inclined to think it an uncalled for, and, at best, a doubtful measure. The Noble Earl sought by it to mike the army popular, and ;to assist, by the training of an efficient militia, the military d e fe nces of the country. The Noble Earl's address for the first hour and a half was exceedingly in• teresting, as showing the efforts that h a d b ee n made to improve the condition of the army, but not one word of that portion of his address had reference to the present measure or in any dis tant manner bare affinity to it. Let the Government go on improving the moral condition of the men—let them improve their domestic comforts—let them improve the quality of their, provisions—let them give them libraries and means of mental recreation, but giving these, would it be al leged that they were ir compatible with enlistment for periods at the individual's pleasure ? It was alleged that the army was unpopular. Where was the proof that it was so ? Was this Bill calculated to make it more. so? Ile thought not. lie had returns of the enlistment from 1817 to 1838 (and this in a time of peace) in the London district, and he found that out of the immense number of 1 9 ,006 who had enlisted, only 218 had chosen the period of limited service. But he would take a stronger case. He found that from the year 1519 to the year 1828, 39,687 persons had enlisted in Dublin, and out of this number only 95 men had chosen the limited period of service. But this system was put an end to in 1829 by an from order from the Government? Then why appeal to that House on this question ? Why appeal to Parliament then ? An order could at once command that limited enlistment should be the rule from that stay forward. They took from the- agricultural labourers, who were their best recruits—they took from the manufacturing districts who were their next best recruits—but if they passed this Bill, they would begin to take from the class of lawyers clerks, and the result would be, that they would have a dissatisfied and in subordinate body of men in the army. It was his opinion that those who entered tile army as the law now stood, considered that it did not matter whether they inlisted for a limited period or for life ; but if their Lordships passed this Bill, they would be holding out an inducement to the scope-grace or uethinking youth to enter the army.—(Hear, hear.) It would lead to the manning of the service by a class of men who would look upon their duties as a tem porary occupation, instead of a profession. Now, the success of' the army—the efficiency of the army it would be denied by no party, depended upon the existence of a different feeling. Just fancy then applying the same rule to any other trade or profession. Could they ever ensure success or perfection in any calling, where a feeling was only encouraged, that the parti cular trade or profession was to be temporary and not permanent. The idea was opposed not only to experience, but to common sense, and yet that was in point of fact the principle enunciated in this Bill. He had now disposed of the arguments of three points urged in favour of this Bill by the Noble Earl who intro duced it, and he had now to say a word, and a word would be enough, to the reason adduced by a Noble and Gallant Gene ral, who he did now see in his place, in support of this Bill. The Noble and Gallant General seemed to think that the pro visions of this Bill would prevent the desertion of the soldier who hid served in the army for some length of time. Why, were was the necessity for a Bill to prevent such an occurrence as that, when he found, by the published returns, that of the number of persons who deserted from the British army, nearly the whole of them where young recruits, who were disgusted with the hardships and severe discipline of the first year's drill. The same Noble Lord also remarked that the provisions of this Bill would h ave the effect of inducing commandi ng o ffi cers t o pay more atten tion to the conveniences and comforts of his m ea.Suchan argument as that only served to threw discredit upon the exer tions of past commanding officers, while it only al tered the present principle thus much, that if a soldier misbehaved himself, this Bill would place in the hands of his commanding officer power to offer a reward instead of chastisement for amendment, and thus held out a premium for the acts of the wrong-doer. Looking, then, to the experience of the past, and acting upon the conclusions that such experience must lead to, be called upon their Lord ships, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief, not to pass the measure. The Earl of HARDWICK said he rose to call the atten tion of their Lordships to a branch of this subject which had not yet been touched upon. Their Lordships were aware that this Bill applied to the marines as well as to the army. Now, it was well known that it took five years' servitude to make a good marine. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the enlistment of marines should take place for a longer period than ten years. fhe Marquis of LAN SDOWNE said that it was with the most sincere conviction that he believed the present measure would tend to popularize the army, and by so doing improve its moral condition. He could not, for a moment, believe that the passing of this measure would be attended with that risk or danger which some of his Noble Friends had said would attend it. It had been said that the goad soldiers would leave at the end of ten years, Why under the existing system, with respect to the good cen , duct warrants, only about twenty-five persons per annum had availed themselves of its provisions; and was it tube supposed that such great numbers would leave the army on the passing of this measure ? it was a supposition perfectly unwarranted by the experience of the past. If he thought that such would be the result, he should most certainly not have given his sup • port to the measure. The principle of the Bill was founded upon the principles of human nature, and unless the British soldier was differently constituted from the soldiers of other States, the meaaore would be as eminentll successful in this as in other countries. Lord BROUG HAM said that their Lordships had only sat there since five or six o'clock, but he had been there since ten o'clock that moaning. He had been sustained there through that long sitting by the interest that the debate had excited, although he felt extremely fatigued from the length of time he had been there. He had no military knowledge or skill, but he felt bound to express to their Lordships the views he entertained upon this subject. The measure was none of the Commander-in-Chiefs suggestion. The Commander. in-Chief would have been the last man to have suggested such a measure to the country, and he had not even sanctioned it by his high authority. In speaking upon this measure, his Noble Friend had only moderately supported it, and while, on the part of Government, he spoke in favour of the measure, he gave his reasons for doing so, every one of which reasons told all against it. Those reasons were all meant to guard his own consistency, and they did most amply guard it; and his warning to the Government to leave the army alone, seemed to say that he would hive them his assistance if they wished it, but they had better leave it alone. The Noble Duke bad addressed the House, not against the present measure for which he was voting, but merely against some portion of that measure which had been dropped by the way, and which might be retrospective in its operations, or might render the re-enlistment of the soldier, after the 10 or 12 years had expired, no longer a matter of option. He (Lord Brougham) had never, in any debate in that House, heard speeches delivered by his Noble Friends round him, and espe cially the Noble L )rd who spoke last, in which the arguments used were so utterly at variance with each other, or where the different portions of their speeches were so conflicting. Th-, re seemed to be a doubt as to the result of the measure itself, and although it was supported, it was supported in so timid a strain, that it almost looked like condemnation. His Noble Friend opposite had stated that the object of the measure was to make the army popular. Was not the present law, as it related to the army, quite as well calculated to effect that ob ject. '['he law permitted enlistment for life, for seven, or for fourteen years ; at least that was allowed down to the year 1829, when it was suspended by an order of Lord Hill. The Government had, however, still the power to enforce limited enlistment, without bringing the measure so fully under the discussien of the Houses of Parliament. They could at any time issue an order reversing the order of Lord Hill, anti there was their object attained at once. His Noble Friend had said that one of the ways to be used to popularize, as he called it, the army was to make dismissal from the ranks a punishment. How did that agree with the rest of his arguments, for at the end of a period of ten or twelve years the mars would be dismissed and re-enlist. He thought that this measure was pregnant with all the seeds, he would not say of insubordination, but of discontent. It was one not calcu lated to improve the condition and efficiency of the army, and was a superfluous and fruitless trouble. This Bill professed to do nothing that they could not have done without a Bill at all, and without the fruitless discussion and trouble which had beets caused by this measure. The proceeding in that House would in a short time form the subject of military con versations all over the country. In less than twelve hours all that had been said in that House would he known to every soldier in St. Ja mes ' s an d a ll over th e cou ntry. They would know that it seemed to be the unanimous feeling of all the officers who had addressed the House that night, that the sol diers had not sufficiently large pensions. Would not such pro ceedings be calculated to excite discontent and dissatisfaction by the attempt to enforce a needlers, useless, and superfluous measure.brought e H pl e y strongly a d u t d hat such a conscientiously m a souprpernheadd it; b been for t s. e ar d d e . feeling the evils it would create, hefurene should vote against the the E f a u r r l th G e ß r E pr y og s r a e i s d s t e l f t a t this Bill.e Noble ( and Learned ppoonu L t ht o he r ns h uo a ir d , ja , e: i ct n e, his speech, indulged in some romantic ideas • u mson which he replied strongly —presuming u of his hearers. The Noble and e e. a u r g n u exdilt,sootLke spoken d should, at ant and rate,Le,,r Learned dv Lord d o h w a n d the th lawe other a s ite evening againstl e Noblethe G •vernment for taking it up in thems n el n ves s in Council, which, by Parliament, they were 17. an , ouster ae thorised to do. The Noble Lord now stat e d that was n') ne cessity for this Act, as the power for enli s ti ng f or a Howl period already existed. lie could state to th Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of i an act of Parliament. The p ower, as t now existed, did not warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore this Act became necessary. He would not detain their Lord ships any further except upon one point, namely, that he had been represented as stating th at the condition* of the British soldier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing, but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument, gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier. With reference to the application of this measure to the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be applied to the marines. It certainly would not be thought necessary to establish a separate system for the two. He had already gone sufficiently far into this subject before, and he should not then detain their Lordships any further. After a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM, The House divided. when there appeared : For the amendment — Non-contents present Proxies 94 Against it— Contents present Proxies ... ...... ... 64 44 -108 Majority against the amendment... —l4 The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock HOUSE. OF COMMONS. April 26. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed:— Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage and Inclosure Company's Incorporation. Limerick Docks and Barbour. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were brought up and agreed to:— Ayrshire and Galloway Railway (Smithstown to Dal mellington). Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail• way (lease to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edmund's Railway Company). Wolverhampton Rates. . _ Hartlepool West ❑arbour and Dock (Dock Extension). GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. Several petiCous were presented for and against the Government plan of education. WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETII-BRIDGE BILL. Captain PLUMRIDGE moved the second reading cf the Westminster and Lambeth-bridge Bill. Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that he had a petition to present against the Bill from his Grace the Arch bishop of Canterbury. ISPEAKERsaid, oved reading that the second of the Bill the Hon. Baronet could not pre having 8 1-)E b soitth i e Sir H. INGLIS then moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He was in hopes that the Honourable and Gallant Member who had moved the second rending of the Bill would have tated the grounds on which he made that motion. The Bill purported to be a Bill to enable ore solitary individual to take, in a compulsory manner, a certain amount of property, and that, he thougtv, was a reason why the Bill should not he read a second time. As he un derst )od it, the Bill proposed that the bridge should be a suspension-bridge. Now he could never give his con sent to the erection of such abridge, because such abridge was perpetually in action, and always liable to accident. Ha deprecated the erection of a suspension•bridge in any case, but in the present one particu :arly, as the land was low on each side, and the raising of it would greatly interfere with the pro perty of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Mr. LAW seconded the motion for the reading of the Bill that day six months. General EVANS supported the second reading of the Bill. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford had stated that the Bill was put forward by a single individual, Sir Samuel Brown; that might be true, but it was equally so that it was opposed only by one individual, and that individual was the Archbishop of Canterbury. He thought that the arguments that had been used by the Hon. Baronet for the second reading of the Bill were strongly calculated to induce the House to send it to a Committee up stairs. He could assure the House that there was no wish on the part of the promoters of the Bill at all to incommode the Archbishop of Canterbury. Dr. NICIIOLL said he believed that Sir Samuel Brown, one of the principal promoters of the scheme, was a partner in a large chain-cable manufactory at Newbridge, in Glanaorganshire, and his chief object was, no doubt, to get rid of some of' his chain cables. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there appeared — For the second reading 26 Against it 4l Majority against the second reading —l5 N AVIGATION - LAWS. Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS presented a petition, signed by six hundred of the merchants and principal inhabitants of Liverpool, against any alteration in the navigation-laws. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented several petitions from the county Longford against the ex officio and other clauses of the Poor-law (Ireland) Bills ; also several petitions from the same county, praying for a system of railways for Ireland, by loans or advances of the public money: Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from South Shields against any alteration in the navigation laws. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK presented petitions from Kilmarnock, and other places in Scotland, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill. Also, petitions from various places in Ireland, iu favour of a system of railways for that country. SCOTCH MARRIAGES BILL AND REGISTRA TION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the in habitants of the Isle of Skye, against these Bills. Mr. FORBES presented several similar petitions from parishes in Scotland. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the guardians of the Richmond Union against the law of settlement. EDUCATION. The HON. GENTLEMAN also presented a petition from Lancashire in favour of the Government scheme. MARY YOUNG. Mr. NV AKLEY presented a petition from Mary Young, of Finchana, in Norfolk, complaining of the con duct of the committing magistrate towards her boy. The Hon. Member said, that on the 9th of December, 1846, the petitioner's husband sent his son, a boy of fifteen years of age, on a message to the superintendent of police. When the bay appeared there the superin. tendent said, " That's the boy that stole the spoons nine months ago." The boy was consequently charged be fore the magistrate, notwithstanding that the charge was distinctly repudiated ; and the magistrate, when the petitioners said that a witness, Small by name, in court, could prove that the boy was absent five miles from the place of the robbery at the time in quo,tion, would not hear Small upon his oath. The boy was therefore remanded to Swatfham gaol for nine clays, and during that period both the silversmiths to whom the spoons had been offered for sale were confronted with him, when both positively said the boy was not the same person. The boy was discharged ; but in consequence of the ill condition of the cell in which he had been confined for nine days he had been seized with inflammation in the hip Joint, which would make him a cripple for life. The peti tioner's husband, in consequeoce of his anxiety and the xposure to which he was subjected, had become ill, and died. The Hon. Member hoped that the statement of the case would receive the attention of the Secretary for the Home Department. Mr. HODUSON HINDE presented a petition from with viary caution Young, thend the magistrate mentioned in the petition of the Hon. a it e te n in Member for Finsbury, praying the House to receive st ying the containedee rcorrectness t in ne s s t the of the petition o asser tions made therein. Sir G. GREY said that with regard to the petition presented by the Hon. Gentleman, the facts had not as yet been brought under his notice. When he receive d an official intimation of the facts be should be better able to judge what course should be pursued. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. iEALTH OF TOWNS. Sir G. GREY then presented a petition from the clergymen of Sheffield in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCE OF POOR , LAW OVERSEERS. Mr. HODGSON presented a petition from the over seers an I administrators of the poor-law, praying the [louse to adopt some means of giving a proper super annuation allowance to persons employed in that cepa. city. He wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary for the home Department whether it was the intention of the, Government to adopt any means for making these cut erannuatien allowances in this session? Sir G. GREY said that he was not prepared at that moment to state the course the Government intended to pursue. Lord MORPET.II presented a petition from the West Riding of Yerkshire against the Factories Bill ; and also seven petitions from the same place, six against and one in favour of the Government scheme of education. REGIS TRATL )N OF MARRIAGES BILL. Sir ANDREW LElra HAY said he wished to ask the Learned Lord-Advocate of Scotland, first, what was his intention with regard to the Registration of Mar riages (Scotland) Bill; and, secondly, whether he in tended to alter or omit the twelfth clanse, and whether he proposed any, and what, alteration in the Bill? The LORD-ADVOCATE said, in answer to the question of his Honourable and Gallant Friend, he could state that it was his intention not to in sist upon the twelfth clause. The ground upon which the Bill was intro luced had been much misrepresented, but he should have another opportunity of explaining himself upon that subject. With reference to the various objections made to the Bill, he proposed to make many great amendments which he should not have hardly otherwise ventured upon. He believed that his Hon. Friend would not object to the course he intended to pursue, namely, that they should go into Committee pro forma, so as to enable him to send the Bid down to Scotland in time for the public meetings which were shortly to be held in different parts of the country. Mr. HUME hoped that the alterations which were to be introdaeed in the would be at the same time made clesr to the pers. ns interested in it. Mr. RU fill intended to do so. After a cow wor . 1-0 , 11 Sir R. 11. INGLIS, Mr. RUTHERFORD said that time had been given t tohi himself f into the Cr right t to enable the peep'' , of Scotland to expre ee th e objec tions they 1411;.!,iii , e;itol-tit6s ageieet I_, a. ef la ea Sir G. CLERK lbvuotu mittee pro forma, b l d e Tneostervochjdee ot THE SUN', LONDON, TUESDAY M DRNING, APRIL 27, 1847. of giving such opposition as he might see prof Per in tire after stages. AURICULTURAL STATISTICS BIL,L. Mr. FORBES wished to know, because he thought that the p rev i ous answer o f the Ri g h t H o n. C„'-entle'.nan was misrepresented by t h e organs through which the public derived their iniormation, whether the sixpe7iise of collecting the rates was to be paid out of the Consoli dated Fund, or from what other source it m ist be de rived, and whether, if farmers refused to be am arable to the requisitions of the Bill, they would be p,.!occeded against by fine, or otherwise ? Mr. GraSON said, that o n a Bill not before the Howse it would b e somew h a t i ncons i stent to go into the detAs of the me asure; b at h e cou ld assure t h e Hon. Member that the w h o l e Bill wou ld s h ort l y b e l a id belore the House. LORD DALIIOUSIE'S ACT. Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to know from the , ;Fecre tary of the Board of Trade whether it was the irate ntion of the Government to amend, in this sesailoo . , ttla , a Act cammonly called Lord Dalhousie's Act? Mr. GIBSON thought that the question would better be answered by hi. Right Hon. Friend the Chie!; Com missioner of the Railway Board. COUNTY COURTS. Mr. BOUVERIE called the attention of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General to se me recent decisions in the Equity Courts. Two judg es had in cases decided that the plaintiffs could not b 3 examined in support of their claims against the defendan ts. T his, as far as he und e r s t oo d the Act, was not the construc tion which ought to be put upon it, and he Atishud the Right Hon. Gentleman to give his opinion on t he matter. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that under the circumstances he did not think his opinion /would be worth anything. The Right Hon. Gentleman- then read the clause, which was to the effect that the plaintiff or his wife, in any suit, might be examined on behalf of the defendants. Mr. OSBORNE wished to know what was intended to be done that night in regard to Irish railroads. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, after the report of the Committee of Supply on the Bill of Friday was agreed to they wou ld then proceed to the propositio n f or making advances to Iris: 1 railways. He was desirous of taking the decision of the House on the question, in order that advances might be made on Irish railways. EMIGRATION TO THE UNITED STATES. Lord G. BENTINCK w i s h e d to ask a question of which he had gi ven a not i ce a f or tnight ago, respect ing emigration. He understood that the measures he then alluded to had passed into a law both in tile states of New York and Massachusetts. the sta ie of New York it was provided that each captain of a ship who brought emigrants should give a bond for 300 dollars that they would not be chargeable on the state, and the state of Massachusetts 10,000 dollars for ten years. lie would ask the Noble Lord for any information he had on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had not heard of the passing of the Bill to which the Noble Lord had referred ; but he knew that such a Bill was under the consideration of the New York and Massachussetts Governments, and the effect of it would be to require security from shipowners having vessels freighted for either New York or Boston, that any pauper passengers should not be left destitute and chargeable to the Government. SERVICE OF HEIRS (SCOTLAND) BILL. CROW N CHARTERS (SCOTLAND) BILL. Both these Bills went through Committee pro forma, and the reports were brought up and received. EDUCATION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in moving the order of the day for receiving the report on the educational grant, said he wished to explain a matter personal to himself, and an Honourable Friend of his in that House on a former night. His Hon. Friend the Member for Car lisle Stated the other evening, that on the 14th or 15th of this month an application was made on the part of the Catholic bishop to !Ave an interview with him on the subject of the educatidnal plan, before its introduc tion into that House, but he declined t o grant it. —(Hear, hear.) Now he begged leave to state that he should be very sorry to be supposed to have been guilty of any want of courtesy towards the Catholic bishop, and he therefore begged to state what really did occur on the 9th. On that day, just after attending the Cabinet Council, and as he was on the point of going a few miles out of town to spend the Sunday, carrying with him a large bundle of pamphlets on education, he received the letter of Bishop Griffiths, read by his Honourable Friend. Certainly he under stood that letter to allude to the subject of the edu cation of the children of poor Catholics, but as he had to bring forward the plan on the Monday following, and there was no time for him to give the interview, or to make any alteration in the minutes that had then been agreed to, he wrote the reply which his Honourable Friend read on Friday. Having stated thus much with regard to a matter entirely of a personal nature, he begged leave to say, in moving the order of the day for the reception of the report, that he theonpteiodn whatever it would be on h fully understoodtepart of G that theorveerizm was no in to exclude Catholics from the benefit of this grant ; but fresh minutes would have to be pro posed upon that subject before the question could be brcught before the House in a formal manner. This would make provision for all persons in holy orders, not only regular clergymen but also Dissent ing clergymen. But he understocd that in the Romish Church there were persons in orders, although they were not in holy orders, but who were engaged in the business of education. It was readily understood that these minutes did not contem plate any provision for them, but he quite agreed that the Romish Church should not be excluded.— (Hear, hear.) But whether there would be any imme diate opportunity to frame minutes he could not say, but every attention would be paid to the subject, and minutes should be made, and a different measure would be brought in to grant allowance for the purposes of education to the members of the Romish Church. Sir G. CLERK wished to know whether, in the con sideration of the subject, any regard had been had to the position of the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland. He wished, therefore, in the first place, to ask the Noble Lord whether those s choolmasters were to participate di rectly in the present grant, and whether they were to be entitled to receive pupil teachers into their schools; secondly, whether their salary was to be increased; and, thirdly, whether the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland were to be entitled t o any retiring allowance a f ter a cer tain period of service ? Lord J. RUSSELL said that as this subject had not yet been submitted to the consideration of the Committee of the Privy Council, the answer that he might give would only express his own opinions. The grant now under the consideration of the House did not contemplate giving any aid except in cases of voluntary effort, so t h at the parochial schoolmasters o f Scotland would not i n any way participate in t h e presen t grunt, but their r e li e f would better constitute a part o f a future measure. W ASTE LANDS IN IRELAND. Mr. HUNIE observed that it was proposed by Government to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to apply for a sum for the improvement of wast e l ands in Ireland. Lie trusted that the measure would be brought on in time to allow of the discussion of the important principles involved in it. Lord JOHN RUSSELL had no objection to bring it for ward early in the evening. The order of the day for bringing up the report was then read. Sir WILLIAM MO LESWORTH, in bringing forward his motion,ceuneil "enThEadteaenatyiemn:aesurreesthoefrthreegC;lnamtimenitst,eewhoifehtheexPelreivdye y p e t d h i e e h u t s eaaenboodor complaining vep t eu h l ag e 3ihng - Roman Catholics from participating any grant of public money for purposes of education, by in requiring in all schools wh o n r c i h s, receive creeirvsei version e c such s g h r e an s t c s r o i t to hehad be Romane s rescinded," n d c e a d t ,: e said i e th schoolmastersat of the operation of the Bill, and its exclusion of themselves from the advantages given to the p f tu P r u e b s t , ic are a in on e g a e other religious persuasions of the country. The a in Il ti a t n io r n he f s r t o e m r, simple object of his motion was to make the measure of the Government —which many thought a partial one—one to enable the Government to impart some of the public aid to the Roman Catholics. It might be said, however, that the Roman Catholics did not need external aid, fur they had never made education an object of their consideration. But he was certain that they stood more in need of aid than any other see • tion of the population. He asked the House to consider what accommodation the Roman Catholic population in the manu facturing districts possessed. He bad received papers from Manchester, which fully confirmed the statements made in the House the other night by an Hon. Member. The Hon. Gen tleman proceeded to read documents at some length. In Liverpool there was at least 20,000 children of Roman Ca tholics, a great proportion of whom were not receiving edu cation. In Middleton there were 6,000 Roman Catholics in the same position. Bolton, Stockport, and the metropolic were in the same position, London alone contained from 150,000 to 200,000 Roman Catholics. In the east district of Londen there were 20,000 Roman Catholics, with 2,000 children, and only 800 were receiving education. In Finsbury there were 30,000 Catholics, of whom but 500 children were being edu cated out of 2,000. In Marylebone only 800 children of the Roman Catholics were receiving education out of 3,000, be longing to a population of 30,000. In Chelsea but 200 chil dren out of 1,000 were being educated. In the Borough which he represented, Southwark, there were 40,000 Catholics, with 4,000 children, and only 100. were receiving any education. In Lambeth the number of Catholic children was 1000,of which but 150 were receiving education. Great Britain had been esti mated to contain 1,530,000 Roman Catholics,though 800,000 he thought nearer the number, and out of 65,000 children belonginc, to them, not more than 30,000 were edu cated ; c leaving 35,000 without any education at all. It had been stated that no application had been made for assist. ance by Roman Catholics ; but this was an error, for last summer an application was made by the Hon. Mr. Langton, to the Council, for a grant in aid of certain schools, in a very poor district in the neighbourhood of Landport, which was not favourably entertained. In the_ reply, it was stated th a t th e minutes to be adop ted required the daily reading of the Scrip. tures. But then this involved the reading of the whole of the Bible. This wss the injurious system of the Government, and only the other day a meeting was held, at which three of the most respectable Roman Catholic Bishops were present, and where the Earl of; Shrewsbury presided, a resolution was unanimously passed condemning the scheme of the Govern ment. He must say that it was his belief that the Roman Catholics had been sacrificed in order to still the opposition of the Dissenters. After the speeches of the Noble Lord the Member for West Yorkshire (Lord Morpeth), th e Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), and the Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell), he must express his disappointment. Even had the Roman Catholics neither asked nor required assist ance, they were f u lly entitl e d to a benefit from the State, and no difference ought to have been made in this country between Catholics and Protestants, especially as Catholicism and Protestantism had ceased to be the representatives of despotism and Protestantism. No more than he could understand the feelings o f the slave owner in the southern estates of America, whose life and property depended upon the education of his s lave, and yet it was re f use d , d id h e understand the princ i p les of . the state. who a ft er a d m itti ng Roman Catholics to th e functions of the Legislature in both that and the other House of Parliament, and to those of the hioltest offi..es under Gov,nment, refused to grant to them the minor rights to which they were entitled. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinbtirgh, described this as a system of perfect impartiality , and he appealed to future ages, as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered to the measure, and looking back with even greater astonish ment that this opposition should be offered in the name of civil and religious liberty. But would not future ages look back with still greater astonishment at the fact that there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coun try, and that they were debarred the means of education. Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes leyans and other parties from participating in the Government grant; but now, when it was: proposed to exclude; them alone, he considered them to be deeply injured and insulted. They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading the Scriptures in the schools. He considered this a most un worthy course, and the motion which he had to propose was to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the question. The Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, said the other night that when he became a Member of the Committee of Council for Education, he found certain rules in existence which he considered so important that he could not consent to their being changed without the nt tice of Par liament. But he continued to say that if a notice fur giving aid to the Roman Catholics were communicated, he would continue a Member of the Committee. It was for that purpose, he (Sir W. Mole:worth) had given notice, and hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they had committed themselves to the country, and the Roman Catholics the other night before the House. Now,it was said, it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo ment; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for bringing it forward at this moment. But why was it expe dient ? It was said that a general election was at hand—that out of doors there was a strong feeling against Roman Catho lics. Well if there were was that House to participate in such feeling. Were the Members of that House to be the mere puppets of the elective body in carrying out their wishes. For his part he believed that House were in advance of the people, and he considered a seat in that House was the highest honour that could be conferred on a man, pro vided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act, and, by Heaven, he believed they would succeed.—( Cheers. ) The motion having been seconded, Sir GEORGE GREY rose and said he would not detain the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. The Honourable Gentleman had twice risen to make this mo tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself, and he stood to the pledge, that a grant of assistance would be given to Roman Catholics. The Hon. Gentleman had not quite taken the right course to carry his proposition ; and he thought it would be far better to leave the matter in the hands of the Government, and when the minutes were framed for the purpose it would be time to discuss the question.— (Cheers.) For his own part, he would a great deal rather that a minute was quite ready to lay on the table of the House. The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his Noble Friend there certainly was neither. For his own part he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before the House this session, the Government would do so, but he would not pledge himself on the present occasion. Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken. He was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly the course which the Government intended to take in carrying out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord (Russell) did not bring forward the question before this, so that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which had taken place, he thought that no time should be lost, and he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of the Government would be satisfac orb and that during the present session the minutes would be brought forward. He would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro- priety of withdrawing his motion; as under the circumstances, he did not think it wise that he should proceed. Sir ROBERT INGLIS opposed the motion, and he did so on the merits of the question itself, irrespective of any other ' consideration. He would do so; no matter by whom the question might be introduced, or at what time, or under what circumstances. He objected to it, because he believed it to be the narrow end of the wedge, by which it was sought to injure the great Protestant interests of the country. He hoped he might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which was inimical to the constitution of England, and the great mass of the people. The great body of the people were opposed to any further concession, and he ap prehended that any measure of that kind would be hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the report of the returns of Catholic marriages made by the Regis trar-General, the total number of Catholics in England was less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from the circum stances of Catholics elevating marriage into a sacrament, it might be presumed that they would have all their marriages celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics; but he thought that the people of England would be too powerful for them and would successfully resist any measure which had for its object the payment of the Catholic priesthood in the exten sion of the public money to Catholic education. He would re sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without liberating his own conscience, and recording his determinatior. to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might have been his declaration of them, so great was his (Sir R. Peel's) respect for his integrity that he alwaes believed that he expressed them with sincerity. He could not, therefore, but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex pression to a few hours ago he was only influenced by a desire to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma jesty's subjects. His Hon. Friend imputed to him a wish to outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal parties He could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He had no such object in view, and if he had, he greatly feared that that was not the move by which it could be best accomplished.—(Hear.) In giving expression to the opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the case, and be apprehended that to the course he took he rather subjected himself to the loss of popular favour. His Hon. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of England was only 300,000. Now, if that were the case, he would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but the 148th part of the population. He did not think also, that any measure in their favour was exceedingly popular in that House, for he recollected that, not a week since, a measure of concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine. It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the other religious parties proposed. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to embar rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex perience of official life was too recent for him not to know the difficulties which must surround the Government in dealing with this question. The position of the Minister was different to that of an individual in that course. An individual could easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a particular policy; but a minister had to consider all the cir cumstances by which he was surrounded, and his official re sponsibility, ere he could agree to such a course. At present, therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the mea sure, and while he had taken the earliest opportunity of stat ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics participating in the grant, he would not be a party to any vote colculated to embarrass the Government. He would hope, that after the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department, on this matter, that the present motion would not be pressed. After that statement, and the pledge of the Noble Lord to introduce a special minute in order to embrace the Roman Catholics, he thought the question might be fairly left in their hands. Ilc agreed with them in not pledging themselves as to any particular time, as it might embarrass them; it was sufficient that for the present they were pledged to the prin ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after op portunity had been given them to maturely consider the subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course than this. Having made these observations on the question before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark would not press his motion to a division.—( Hear.) Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford would open the eyes of the Government, and that they would at once act on their con victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland. The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further. No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised, but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that, but act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark would withdraw his motion. Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the Hon. Member for Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics, in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that coarse they had done the greatest harm to themselves. There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. They ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case One thing, however, he begged to insist on, notwithstanding what had been said by the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, and that was, that the Roman Catholics should be placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of this country. If the Hon. Baronet, the Member for South wark (Sir W. Molesworth) divided the House on this question he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that be was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the subject ; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of the poor both in this country and in Ireland.—(Loud cheers. ) Mr. LAW quite felt the difficult position in which the Noble Lord (the Member for London) was placed. But this much he would say, that he had well done his duty, both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans which they had proposed, and he was quite ready to give his as sent to the defence of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, which was conclusereon the score of popularity ; and whether he looked to the late divisions, or to the feelings out of in stating that the plan was satisfactory t o d al o l o p r a% hetie was hap parties theP p community.otestant community. But what was to fol low was a matter for future consideration , and whether the plans to be hereafter brought forward were to be satisfactory not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic o f question,t h e Dot ya and version until that was gto gentlemen, who took an in t ere st on this o ccasion , it would be w as ascertained, it would be imp o ssib le to express any opinion upon the matter; but th is he mi g ht sa y , that whatever the p lans might be, that no p lans, come from what q uarter the y mi g ht, used o rn o t to wasdiscuss. yet matter Whether would be received wi th so much g ratification as from him. Yet he must reserve his g uarantee till an y of those p lans were uibtee premature fairly before the House. with whom he had acted, he had stood by the oppo sition to those ago, when he was engaged side of the Noble Lord many years Acts. The Hon. Mein- in carrying the Corporation and Test Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the time when, in ber for Kerry • • of charge on the Noble Lord, that he had neglected the sort general assistance, but to this the House, by its late (Mr M. O'Connell) had endeavoured to fix a principle of divisions, had shown t hat the y were decidedl y o pp osed, and he that seeing the difficulties to which the Noble Lord w as exposed, toe advantage, a a f acto r y the t n bringing th he felt it but due to him to say that on the pre sent occasion he should give his decided opposition to the mo tion say, tion of the Hon. Member for Southwark. e vrhole out of Mr. MORE O'VERRALL said that no b o d y was mere decidedly interested in the g rant to g eneral e ducation than were the whole of th e Catholic bod y . but the m otion of the Hon. Member for Sout hwark had at least bro ught forth this benefit, ex planations body. bad for many years knowevery Mem- that i t had w h h a i d c lat i to He least t this h ber of the present Government, and he had not the slightest without any reference expressed out of doors, without any re doubt that the minute of council which had been promised ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenters who were would be laid upon the table, and he should be doing an injus- connected with lilt. would say that the best ro tice to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which vision that could be . madeli s a ' d been made for the provision for he was connected, if, in the event of a division, he refrained the poor. He might have the misfortune mae to differ From some of from expressing by his vo te hi s con fid e nce in a ministry who those who had taken part in thedebate, but there appeared to had exhibited such an enligetened regard for the welfare of the be in the observations of the opponents a singular forgetfulness people, and who had the m e ans, a s w ell as the will, to confer of' the ties which bound the several portions of 'society toge such an inestimable b oon as th a t of e d uca tion on the Catholic ' ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed community. i the pl an o f the Government, but he believed that out of Sir R. INGLIS h a d never before hail th e a d van t ag e of , doors the highest respect would b e f e lt f or an assem bly meeting the Hon. G en tl eman b e hi n d him (Mr. Vlore i O'Fer- which had t reate d this mp u o s r t tant queseion in the way in which rail) on commo n groun d b e f ore , an d h e cou ld n ot refrain from it had been m e t, b ut he must b p e l l a i n ev h e a d d , been d e e v v e i r s y e for the education of the people, expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially dmsaeym, b in er h o is f own th opinion, the best concurring with him as he did on the present occasion. i p an oa d s , ib b l e e community would Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the I be satisfied with a measure in eelfch th d e e gratest relief was . Mr. T. DUNCONIBE was not at all . surprised that the Government gave funds for Mahommedan education in India, 1 provided where there was the greate'st it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to I include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and , Noble Lord had withdrawn the attentionamod. ha House from i pased at the question of the lion. illember for w ;il he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself, i the question immediately bargee them • not sur unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position, by placing the religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently 1 only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for S u . li k forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure. was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council °t war ic - When the Member for the University of Oxford had given his granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless p wh 'fi h unequivocal support to the principle of education, he felt that , answer was given as to when a provision was to a be s-em de e Wesleyans, and there need have been no hesitation on the part for the Roman Catholics, he would go nu: alone and vote form made of the Government. Nevertheless, he did consider that it motion. The whole of the diffii ulty had arisen from the secret was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the grant negotiations which had taken place with the Wesley had not been given solely to secular education, l it was certainly owing to these understood proc ee di ngs that He thought that it was qu i te an error to suppose that t h e : the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in whi c h Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being ' they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member for read by the people. If the version authorised by that church Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state was read in th e sch o ol s daily, their authorities, he was sure, went which he had made the other n i g ht was nei ther more nor would find no f au lt w i t h i t . B ut look i ng at the many diffi. less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ? culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any Why, that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists had wish to interfere with the religious education of the people. not taken place at Lansdowne Honse, but at the Treasury, and A secular education was still somewhat unpopular. He ex- notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so pected the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys- kindlrcome forward to speak on the matte' that such was not tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi- the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic culties which he had alluded to, was one by which Government fellow-subjects were to he sacrificed to the interests of the provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools Mr. Hughes, alto appeared to have teen the go-between were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under between the Ministry both with the Wesleyans and the that conviction would give the Government his support, feel- Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a mg assured that they had to struggle with many difficulties deeper intrigue —an intrigue with the Chu:eh by which the inte• which they had endeavoured to overcome, ' rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex- Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea- Press l 9 stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them. thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the What then became of the allegations of the Hon. Member for authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of Edinburgh ? Why, what he had assented was substantially the education of the young of the country. He would always correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and of the grant, for the Dissenters and the Catholics bad both re therefore he would oupose the motion, fused it. Some prorni:.e had been held out that there would Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would be a provision fed' the Roman Catholics, bat it was plainly as take the advice tendered him from many on both serted by the Hun. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni sides t f the House, and withdraw his motion. He versity of Cambridge (Sir R. Inglis) that if there was to be (Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de. went ton far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad- cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had milted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the entered into a lengthy tirad e on th e genera l a d vantages o f education, and had blamed him for apparently do u bti ng th em . Government, bat then there were some other sects excluded and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why Why who did doubt th em i n th e p resent d a y. C erta i n l y no t h was that? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication. he; but unless there w as some prov i s i on ma d e f or t h e R oman But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who were de- Catholics, most de c id e dl y wou ld h e oppose t h e plan • but if the prived enti re ly of the advant ages to be derived by other of Governmintroduceent i would come f orwar d an d say expressly that they their fellow-subjects. He was sorry, indeed, that the Govern- would ' went had no t carried their measure much farther, and made it Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully beli e ved that it would be much bolder at once . H e was sere th e would have met with totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as greater support th an h a d b een g i ven them, great as that had y heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the been. H e b egge d aga i n t h at t h e H on. B aronet wou ld w ith- new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he had told draw his mo ti on. them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then Mr. NEWDEGATE sa i d the qustion was too i mportant discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to that he should maintain silence, and give his vote without ex which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the Hon. planation. He agreed with the Hon. Member on his left (Mr. Forbes). He honoured the Noble Lordat . thehead Di-tuber the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion. of the Government, for the manly way in which he had They would soon have enough of the scheme when they had brought forward his measure, disdaining to take his en all the schoolmasters appointed and those inspector gentlemen try by surprise. He repudiated the charge of bigotry which —when they had those State spies intermeddling with the vii had been thrown out from the other side of the House upon loge affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever those who rejected the spirit of this motion. He stood gave way to the scheme." But gentlemen, in the meantime, by those sentiments and principles which had done were congratulating the Ministers on the majority which they honour to this country, and entered intimately into had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Dancombe's) amend its constitution. Big o t r y ! Wh y some of the Members of that men t.He admitted it ; it was a great and triumphant t ma- House seem to have been carried away with a f ur y for educa- jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoble manner— thin, till in the liberality of their sentiments, as they called a majority obtained by truckling to bigot: y and making conces them, they opened the national privileg es t o J ews , T ur k s, and s i ons t o one and to another, which deserved to be shown' up infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made and exposed. If the Roman Catholics obtained a benefit in against him, for supporting principles which he defended these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite, too much. not because of any spirit of concession on the part of the Go- Mr. BELLEW, as a Roman Catholic Member of the vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had House, rose to explain his reason for voting in sup- consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House port of the Government measure, which was intended with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging to advance the civil and religious liberties of the sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country struggling for many rears to emancipate the Catholics, when that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had been given should they succeed ? The Noble Lsrd said in his speech they in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan- might not succeed for some time—nay, he said, not for some tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and years. Some years! He (Mr. Dunccmbe) told him that the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country. He if s he might h ave succee d ed at once, b e m i ght h ave sue thought the measure was called for from the great amount of seeded now, if he h a d come d own t o t h e H ouse ignorance which prevailed in this country, and laid upon the table, wh a tev e r opi n i on Di ssen t ers m i g ht members of his own religion were excluded the though thee benefits of the have formed, or even have exp resse d, a b o ld er sc h eme , one t h at grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring - himself, on went further. If the Noble Lord h a d sa id t o t h e H ouse , Whatever faults it has, it off rs equal benefits to all equally;" that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others. then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward would the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern- from the other side, but he othe have succeeded, if not better, meet on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of at least as well as he did the r night against hi s (M r . Dun duty to support the motion. comhe's) amendment. But no , th e G overnment had truckled Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ; Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo bolder course. lie would be very glad to see his own opinions sition, had been sacrificed. of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions Mr. I3ROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some hands of the Government. lie felt confident that right would be done them ; an d a l t h oug h in favour of the principl e o f th e confidence in the Government, he could not su pp m t t h e mot i on motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the of the Hon. Baronet. question, and which the House, perhaps, Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion thatwere notincireum if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be stances t o value, he would vote against the motion. disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in Sir W. MOCESWORTH then repliedlle said be had been requested to withd raw hi s mot i on, and among the rest by extending, education towards all, and h e th oug ht the difficulties of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear, the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment he always respe c t e d. Il e ( Si r W. Molesworth) had often been hear.) He disapproved of th e p r i nc ipl e o f secu l ar e d ucation apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi- assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but be could not agree dercd that religion should not be separated from education, with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that He thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the assembly. He (Mr. W. Molessvorth) would respect the general approval with which his plan had been received, and he Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having sincerely hoped that, without making any distinction of sects, made a promise to brin g f orwar d a mot i on soen for a minute to they would extend to all the advantages of ed uca ti on . include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. He would Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the lion. Gene on that understanding, with the permission of the House , es. who had just sat down, was cor rec t as t o th e i mme - draw the motion.—( Loud cries of "Na," from loth sides. ) diate intentions of her Majesty's Government to b r i ng i n a mi nute to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics, head of the Government had spoken as though he had last then the House would be saved a great deal of unnecessary year voted against the Marnooth grant, because it went to the discussion. He feared, howe ver , that this was not an exac t' in- Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that such terpretation. The Hon. Membe r for Southwark was met with was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.— all sorts of professions on both aides of the House. Would the (Divide. divide.) Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics Mr. J. COLLETT hoped that the Hon. Baronet would were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring in not withdraw his motion.— (Cries of " Divide.") a distinct minute for them this session? If the Noble Lord Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know how the gave such a promise, be (Mr. Roebuck) promised he would not matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that the benefits of the vote, or were they not? Had a pledge been the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connect e d w i t h given that they would ? If not. he hoped the Hon. Member the Government, had not opened their mouths on this question. would not withdraw his motion. (Loud cries of " Divide, If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would not suffer the divide,") amid which, contumely. Some Hon. Member, like the Hon. Member for Dlr. Il U3IE rose, and said lie was gratified with what, had Warwick, would endeavour to raise ano popery cry, and that fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote was a proof that education should be directed to make men) ultimately, and with that h e th oug h t t h ey ought to be satisfied, virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious without pressing the present motio n t o a division,—(Loud differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from cries of " Divide.") The gallery was then cleared for a divisio n , when there ail ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would pcared— go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing For the Amendment e this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous Against it 203 of waiting till that time arrived. — (Hear, hear.) This Majority against the Amendment seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government. Mr. EW ART then brought forward the amendment of In talking so much about the faith of the Roman which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality one school receiving State support, children whose parents ob of many of the other sects that received aid from the Govern- ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may relent grant. The British and Foreign School Society was be admitted to the school without being subject to such reli one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em- gious instruction. That appointments under Government ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman C a th o - be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful lies, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity. candidates for exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could be admitted on thrown o?en to general free competition, on the principle of account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was 100,0001. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more • so equitable that no one could object to it. He would, therefore, and if the next Parliament was a liberal House Of rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of that party of the House with any observations. would be revived, but not otherwise. What is Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so the vote of the 100,0001. but to remove ignorance equitable, that he 'would not picture to himself any objection to and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where religionists as to another. To members of the Church of Zags, there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no hear.) This was where education was most required, and he thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of therefore objected in Into to the educational scheme; because the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to the religious feelings of any religious denomination. those who had none,—(Hear, hear.) H e wan t e d some d e fi n i te Sir G. GREY thought that theresolution was the same in pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for- principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. T he ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He (Ur. schools to which the Government aid was to be extended uf w t e h r i e s Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise, voluntary schools, and he thought that if principleth vi c uidb he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord hadentirely the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such amendment were adopted, their t clar c a ondition n were imposed„ changed, and many . of them, if I a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.) proposal. not. therefore, assent to the . would in all probability reject the grant altogether. He could Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given two mitions. He thought this was a great practi. Mr. V. SMITH thought there wss a practical difference . sulicient explanation, and had calledon him further to state his between . the views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark hadca l He hoped the Government would accede to ilk. grievance, ant Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him is that opinion. brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and as there was no class of religionists who coullt had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to especiallyni k r e e ofince it. .ta accede to the request he had made. He ( Lord John Russell) 3lr. FINCH opposed the motion, and he believed, if he. begged leave to say_ that his Right Hon. Friend near him, the Ministryd to 't ' Majesty's assented I., it would be found to be ute Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to- night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the terly impracticable. grounds why the Government objected to the motion of the Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re- Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed 'them- himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern- wont grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could went. They had given them credit for the motives by which not sign their names, but had to make a cross. 'this showed they were actuated, and that they were satisfied with the pro- the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti mise of the Government. This had been the opinion of the tioned against its further extension. He though the Govern- Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth of the Hon, went plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing Member for Wiltshire, of the Hon. Member for Kildare (him- circumstances. self a Roman Catholic), and other Hon. Membeys. He was Mr. HUME was at aloes to understand the last Hon. Mem-. satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and ber. lie lamented the want of education, but he seemed t ir o . Learned Member for Bath—( Hear, hear)—and, therefore, desire no measure by which that ignorance could bgot u ri f d w o m would not think it necessary to make any further Tile real question was to know how the complainedevi , t fet lead ion shoulct to be wet. He maintained that a system ; observations; for these reasons he would not enter ht given to all, into further explanations on the question.—(Hear, hear.) be earned out in which secular ed n ucton ow m . .g neighbourhood, in The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath seemed to conceive religious education to follow. of i h ,200 persons who could not Norfolk, there was apopulation that no good men could act without some particular interest had no school, and were it rendered im, was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of read nor write h ; , they should have a Church Catechism they would the Government could possibly have any object to effect except perative that school a at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support their own. When every member had; been, in the utmost de- the°nt haveon Member for Dumfries. gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute people,f Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition ci when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relies dn as anything other than an extension of thw all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, wise voluntary principle. As he believed that the motion if agree ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestants to would bring the Government in conflict with • • agree thew religious sect Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the in the count ryDumfr, he c es old not support the moti on o f the Ho*. were o Hon. Gentle man h a d g i ven an express i v e warning that there Member for i. were other populations which required the assistance of h e After a few words from M . r. W, MARTYN, which wed vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they inaudible in the gallery, were placed, and saidfthat he had observed a triumphant s mile Sir W. CLAY said at the expression which on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's) had fallen from him. But if such were the case the smil , was jetted, he should certainly vote for the motion of his Hot. not from the observations made by the lion. and Learned Friend the Member for Dumfries jibe pressed it. He thong* Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of however, after what the Government had stated, it would le, the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of best to withdraw it for the r t p esen . which the Hon. and Learned Member complained, B ut Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if press( ' the Hon. and Learned Member had a further complaint, and only he agreed with the last Member who spoke, that it wont had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by some be better not to press it. accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with . any After a few words from Lord HARRY VANE, merit of its own, it would feel that it was requi • red that it Mr. EW ART sa id, a f ter t h e genera l ex p ress i on o f opiniv would accomplish something this that was gr ea t. To ' .he (Lord by the House, he would cons ent to withdraw the motion. J. Russell) might reply, that if a city in the west of Engl an d, The moti on was th en w i t hd rawn sent a representative, wh o , w i t h out any merit of his own, Sir G. CLERK said that he had heard with regret that t 1 was willing to gain notoriety of his own, measures which he himself was unable by carp and cavil at Noble Lord had no intention to _ , The only reason armlet. inclined to draw attention to his theories, to devise, that if he were Parochial schoolmasters of Scotland. Now, if that wld particular measure of his own to i d e e o v ries, without having any was, that already there_N e v e. s. „, a t legal r, i provision. siuu or raised to Le so,antin dined to draw attention to theories whicihse, but was merely ssi, at it o e u r gh s t o to t b h e er a e n ought to ' be P some allowance out of the grim realised, were they to be attended to?— c were never likely to I e that The were e ble Lord saA that he could not agree to give any pa • ( beers.) If a certain city in the west of England chose to of this grant to the schoolmasters of Scotland, as the grant e , from caprice, and without any merit send a Member merely intended to be only in aid of voluntary efforts. But on wt.' of his own, he should re. member that there was alround was it, that, lifer a suf f icient service, retiring pensir ways a disposition to allow for the do- g • eto be denied to the sarnchial schoolmasters ? Yet it ficiency. —(Load cheere. ) Bust the Hon. Member had stated were Feared that the parochial schools were to be subject to f the example of the Hon. Member for Oxford, and that, in his supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore the opinion there ought not to be any ailowanceto the Roman Ca no reason . whatever tea deny them the advantage of those tholies. But it as as on this account proceeding on the notion was. that all opposition was founded on selfish motives. In short tiring pensions. The principle of the reti h r o in o f u mn t s e i r o s n s i , n er ri e o i :: this matter,l which, 9 that there was no generosity—no consideration in any of . the interfered enabled te w re ' b the schoolmasters grant, they were a: proceedings of any Member of that House, who was inclined thorisei to receive pup s, receive . ; a n d . he trusted y therefore, that in fraink to sapport the Government. But this he believed to be a the minutes tne minutes sufficient attention would be to this pantie • very imperfect view of the question, arid without any reference , . i ...A ' the House, lan point. to the question of religious opinion, elm. la • •• •:.•