The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-13 00:00:00

Manufaayiers were at liberty to apply to be heard by Counsel , ogainst any Bills that might be brought in pursuant to these Resolutions, if they thought fit, The Resolutions were then read and agreed to. Mr. It ADDINGTON moved, that a Bill be brought in pursuant to the three last Resolutions. ROBERT-BUXTON said, he was not going to ,oppose the bringing in the Bill now moved for, but he wished it to be understood as - his opinion, 6 7 ,4 - itie — greateSt — diffieutties which had been felt on itibjeA, had itisen chiefly from our departing frpth the constitutional-mode of adjusting differences beiW"een Master arid Servant ; . he meant that of an appeal to the Magistrate.. The question was then put, and leave was given to bring in theßilL I,E)PENCES OF VOLUNTEERS, &cc. Mr. C ALCR AFT said, he should postpone the noiice of a Motion for an allowance for Contin. Itrc-.. of Volunteers, until Mon. dly the 23d instant. IRISH COIN. Mr. CORAY: said; - he was in expedition' of Dispatches from Ireland upon the stibjea of which he bad given ruitice for to-day, relative to the Coin of Ireland; and therefore, with the leave of the House, he.shoulCfdefer it until to-morrow, when he should bring it fthrivarti, if the lutelligence or Dis pitch he expelled shinild arrive; if not, he should hdvc the same excuse then as he• had now for post. riding it until Slier such intelligence should arrive. _Mr. J. LATouCtle wasabout to state how much interested all ranks and classes of His Majesty's Sub je:ft.s in Ireland were in this measure-:--when Mr. SPEAKER observed, that it. was the esta. bijshed custom of the House,not to_ suffer a Speech tq be .made on such an occasion as the present ; it was not allowed by the Rules of the 'House, that there should be ar E ly argumentative notice. If the tipn.lVlember, intended to conclude with a Motion, it was competent to hinfto pieced, but not other. wise. SALARIES OF IRISH MINISTERS. Lord A:W.I - 11h ALD. HAMILTON tailed the attention of the noose to the subject of the Payment of the Salaries of the Ministers . of Ireland, who oc casionally resided in this Country, he meant the mode In which that payment was made, for they were paid at par. It was now six weeks or nearly v.v.° months since first he mentioned the suhjedi in the House, and he thought it incumbent on him to bring the matter forward for the consideration of the House ; he gave notice that he should this day do so, and he now proposed to fulfil that promise.— The subjed *as that of Payment of Salaries of the Ministers of that part of His Majesty's Govern ment which related to Ireland, Wh6 occasionally resided in England, which payment Was made at par. When this circumstance was . first mentioned to: the House, which it was by him, it appeared to every body who heard it, to be an extraordinary fa'd, when it tiva3 admitted to be a fad, and he must . be allowed to re:nind the Right Hon. Gentle.. man (Mr. CoaRY) who 'admitted it, with what re. Itihance he brought the inatter'forwardi but, how eier,, he was impelled .to it by a sense of public duty, .and for the same reason be was bound co pur sue it; and here he must premise what he had to say, with observing, that there was no part of the duty of that House more imperative than that 'of watching over every part of the Expenditure of the Public Money. There generally did exist, and al ways ought to exist in that House, a jealousy con . ccrott2g all money transatttions, and it ought to be exercised with vigilance on the, present occasion, and he .was glad to say, that the question which he should lay before the House for its consideration, would lie within a narrow compass, for the chief part'of it"was neither more nor less than what was to.be considered as the meaning of the plain letter or an Ad of Parliament. The amount of the sums opt of which this arose, was indeed small, but it seas the principle which constituted the importance of.thesithjed. Here he proceeded to read the Ads of. Parliament of the 3oth of the King, for regulat. ing the Payment of the Salaries of. all the Servants. of e the Crown in the Civil Departments of the State and then contended, that the Commissioners of the Treasury in Ireland, had no right to inter fere-with the payment of the Salaries of the Offi cers of Governmetit,. nor with any sums of money Whatever while it was in transitu; for it was not only repugnant .to the Law he had just quoted, but contrary also to precedent. He contended that the, Order which had been issued by the Commissioners of the Treasury in Ireland, fur the payment at par of the Civil Officers of the Government of the ctiuntry, occasionally resident in this, was not warranted, and was therefore an excess of their authority. He would ask, what were the Sala. ties of these Officers of Government ?—Were they not charges upon the Public Revenue of the Country ?—lf so, by what authority was any al terationmade in them? He said, that payment to any person out of the public Revenue of the Coun try, of more than was allowed- by Law, was irre gular, and quite unwarrantable; and if the Right HonourableGentlemao opposite to him (Mr. Cott ay), was allowed to proceed in this manner, where were we to stop ? He contended, therefore, that this was an unwarrantable at. He did not charge Ministers with a deliberate design to over-rule the Law ; but he said, that these irregular and unwarrant. able ads would have that effed, unless checked by the House. It was admitted that the Half-pay Officers Ireland were not paid at par, while they inightof be.'occasional residents in this Country. Now, upon what ground the Civil Officers of Government claimed to be paid at par, when no such advantage was allowed to the Half-pay Officers, he was at a - loss to conceive. He knew many reasons why the Half-pay Officers, who had devoted the whole of their time, and often risked their lives in defence and for the service of their cl.uutry, should have more advantages in the mole .of receiving their little pay, but not one reason why they should have less than the Civil Office:s of the Government. There was therefore no rrinci l l a on which this mode . of payment could be supported ; because, if it was upon prineiple; the thing should be adop:e.) gaee.reliy t, ;tit whose services be:Onged to Cle Go; s eoareo-,t 1 , elioO!, ;Ind who wcire . OceaiionAlly Chia eouisory. But by this prazt,e'e paying Officers of the Irish Government at par, if they should happen Co come over here for six weeks, they had an advantage of to per cent. on the Course d Exchange. He knew not why many of the Civil Officers of the Irish Government came into this Country. The Lord Chancellor of Ireland, for instance, what reason was there why he should be in England at all, otherwise than as a Mem ber of Parliament, in which charaftet he had no Salary ? The same observation might be, made on the case of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. COREY) ; there was no occasion for his resi. dence in England, otherwise than as a Member bf: Parliament, in which charafter he was entitled to no salary. The same might be said of the Inspec. tor General of the Imports and Exports, who was not of necessity here. The same of the Officers of the Customs of the Port of Dublin, and many others; yet they were all Isere, and had the advantage of receiving their Salaries at par. These multiplied in stances of this advantage given to the Civil Officers of the Executive Government of Ireland, confirmed him in the conviction of the impropriety of the practice. Here the Noble Lord read passages from pages eleven and twelve 'of the Account which was laid on the Table, of the money paid to different Officers for their Salaries at par,- from -which -he argued there were abuses in this system, arid observed that the more he considered the subject, the more he was convinced of the im. propriety of the practice. He then insisted on the particular inexpediency of the practice at the present moment, under all the present circum stances of that Country, and that the more re. markably, on account of the deplorable state of the currency of that Country, which had fora long time past been felt as a very great evil. He main tained, that without imputing any improper motives, it looked unfavourably that the Commissioners of the Revenue should benefit themselves by an order which they made contrary to law, and should them. selves claim, by their own order, a benefit which they did not allow to others, who, if the measure was . right, had a better claim to it. He observed also, that this matter remained a secret for a while, and until he brought it forward in the HoUse :—if it was right, why was it concealed at all ? this was a matter which had also an unfavourable appearance. He contended that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Coxity) could not, of his own individual authority, do any ad for the raising any money not allowed by Law, for any body; still less proper did 'it seem to be when that money went partly to him self; such money not being in the Exchequer, and, therefore, not subjett to his cognizance.— These were two points on which his objection to this practice rested. The third point was, that the principle on which the practice was defeoded, had compleatly failed, for it was not general in its ap_ ' plication ; the Half-pay Officers deriving no ad. vantage from it, and before it could deserve the name of a principle, the application of it must be general. Lastly, the only persons who were made to benefit by the practice, were the last from whom it ought to be expected, namely, the Commissioners of the Treasury of Ireland, who issued the order ;: nor was there any excuse for this having happened by inadvertency, or any thing of 'that sort, -for there was no account made out CM the subject of the Revenue of Ireland, in which the course of ex. change !did - not appear, 'therefore they had the subjeft constantly before their eyes. He should have thought that their being in a situation of trust, would have prevented them from convert. ing it, for they had converted, it into their own emolument; he must be allowed to deliver his opi. nion upon these matters, without softening his lan guage ; but to use such as were applicable to the fads, as they appeared in proof. He said, he was warranted in saying, that they had turned their situation of trust to their own private emolument. He then read the Resolutions which he proposed to submit to the House;--First, Resolved, That it appears to this House, that payments have been made in London, of Salaries charged on the Irish Establishment, out of money to be remitted to the Irish Treasury, thereby preventing' the profits of the Exchange thereof, from being of credit to the Public, as is done in other cases. Resolved, That they have been made without sufficient authority. Resolved, That such pradice is unwarrantable, and ought to be discontinued. Lard C ASTLERE AGH observed, that the Noble Lord, in the statement he had been pleased to make upon this occasion, had travelled more into general propositions than was necessary. The main question was a very simple one, namely, whether money in possession of the agent in England belong ing to the Irish Treasury, was or was not subject to the order of the Commissioners of the Irish Trea sury ? Then supposing that to be decided in the affirmative, the next question would be, whether the application that was made of that money under that order, was a fit and proper application, under all the circumstances of the case ? In other words, whether the order of the Commissioners of the =lrish Treasury proceeded from a competent or legal authority, or not ? And he apprehended the Noble Lord had taken the matter too widely, when he con sidered .that the money transferred from the Trea. sury of that Country to the 'lrish agent in this, must be considered as money in transit* to the Irish Exchequer, in the situation of all money in transitu, it was as he apprehended, subjeft to the order of the Lords of the Treasury there, they being in that case as they were in every other, responsible for. the exercise of their authority in the application of tha money, for as the money was issued under the au thority and by the direlion of three of the Lords of the Treasury, the order was a legal order in it self, and as such binding on the Irish Agent ; and he agreed entirely with the Noble Lord, that the Officets of the Treasury were responsible to Par liatnent for every thing in execution of their trust, and that they should draw every thing to the advan. rage of the Public, in the best manner circumstances wou ld pet-1-dt ; and that if the course of Exchange between tilis Country could be applied to the benefit of Irelaod, in the issue of any orders otherwise, it was a part of their duty to inidce it arplicable to the Interest of the Public as !WIC" as possible, unless some particular circum , r:toces o f som e rirricular easy, caged for relagiti 9 " from the general principle, which he v i r -heotted io the c.iie now under c .n.ideration. The N Ole seemed to argue this matter as - if ,there was an saint increase of Salary to these Officers, by the' mode of payment which had been adopted in this case ; if so, he should agree with the Noble Lord in the conclusion that the mode was improper ; for it was beyond the competency of the Irish Treasury to increase the Salaries of these Officers, the amount of which was specified by Law. The An of Parliament had said, what the Salaries of - these Officers should be, but that was while they ex ercised their funnions in Ireland, and when they were to be paid there ; but in the case now before the Home,. the Officers of Government, whose Sa laries were thus paid, had been taken from the na tural sphere of anion in which they had, been usually called upon to move, and brought, for special pur poses, to exercise their functions in this Country. It was true that appliCation might be made to Parlia ment, if any alteration was necessary, in the - course of the payment of these Salaries ; at the same time the Noble Lord would see, that the whole of the question arose, not from the amount of the Salaries of these Officers, but from the mode of paying them, in consequence of their funaions being altered and extended beyond their ordinary sphere of anion ; and the question was merely, whether an Officer coming from Ireland to England to do. his duty, - shall he paid in England in English or-in Irish Cur rency ; he would see that it would be straining the statement to go beyond this, or to say that it. was any thing like an increase of Salary. The question was, whether as an Officer did his duty in England, he should not be paid in Eng lish Currency indeed, he discharged the funnions of his Office in Ireland, it would be an advantage to him that he should be paid in English Currency, and an advantage to which he would not be intitled ; but if he was obliged to come here to perform that office, a country in which certainly he could not live cheaper than in Ireland, nor could he do his duty in it with more sa tisfaetion or convenience to himself than in Ireland would put it to the House whether it was fair to call on such an Officer to perform his duty with a diminution of Salary ; for that would he the case if he were to be paid here in Irish currency. This mode of payment was not in fad an increase of Sa. lary, but a mere r.tlief from a Tax to which these Officers would be liable if this mode of payment was not adopted. The propriety of affording this relief from a Tax in such a case, he maintained to be con sonant to the spirit of the An of Union, as, well as to the general principles of justice. He .maintain ed that in some cases it had been allowed to those who were not compelled, as these Officers were, to come from Ireland to this Country.— As to what had keen said about the particular individuals, who took what was called the be nefit of this mode of payment, (which by the way was no benefit, 'for it was only an exemption from a Tax, which could not justly be imposed on them,) he could say of them that they were anuated by no motives but such as would do them no dis. honour ; neither was there any attempt to keep this matter a secret t no secrecy could attend it. He compared this mode of payment to that which was uniformly adopted in paying our Troops abroad.— The course of Exchange was often such as to make it .a matter of some expence to transmit the Pay of Officers and Men, yet they had their whole Pay ? as if there wns no outs expellee, and the Public were always called upon to defray it ; and, there fore, in , his oPinion, the question was, Whether the Commissioners of the Treasury of Ireland were not called upon to consider of the propriety of relieving these Officers front the operation of a Tax which would, unless they were relieved, attach upon chew when they came to perform their duty in this Country, and which would not attach on them if they performed it in Ireland. The Noble Lord said, the principle on which this mode of payment was adopted, ought to be general, or not adopted at all, and therefore the Half-pay Officers of Ireland, 'who were in this Country, ought to be paid at .par • as well as the Civil Officers of the Irish Govern. ment, but there was a distinction between the two services. The Half-pay Officers of Ireland had their option, whether they would come here or remain in Ireland ; but the Civil Officers were compelled to come here. He applied this to all these Officers who came here, and he could not help thinking that the House would be of opinion with him, that those Officers had no more than justice done to them upon this occasion. On the whole matter he did not see any blame imputable to the CoMmissioners of the Irish Treasury upon this occasion, and as these Re. solutions were intended to he folio wed up by some other Resolutions of disapprobation of what had been done, for which disapprobation there was no reason, therefore he moved the Order of the Day. Lord FOLKSTONE said, he 'was surprized . to hear the Noble Lord attempt to defend a condod which, in his opinion, could not be defended, and he was the more surprized at the arguments of the Noble Lord, because he had formerly heard him deny the depreciation of Irish Paper. The Noble Lord who had brought forward the Motion had, in his opinion, completely established the case he set out with, and therefore he should support the Mo tion. Mr. FOX said, he by nu means concurred with those Gentlemen who contended that this was not an increase of salary, because it was pettedly ob vious that to relieve a man from • a burthen or a tax was in point of fad to increase his salary.= The Noble Lord had principally rested his argu ment upon the ground that it was fair that the Officers should be remunerated who were ordered over here by their Superiors upon public business ; but though this was the case with some of the Offi cers, yet it certainly was not with others: the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for instance, he cer tainly was not ordered over here by his Superiors. Suppose he was not a Member of Parliament, he did - not see that his residence in London would he necessary. But even if the attendance of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer was necessary, surely the presence of the Lord Chancellor could not be con tei,dcd to be so. - 'He by no means allowed that the attendanc e of a Member of Parliament was more requisite when he was in office than when he was mit. 'He wished to know whether •there was no oth:r comPensation allowed to the Officers coming over to this Country ? If there was not, it certainly was a very hard case ; but still this. was a very itn. Proper mvde of snaking the allowance to them. • If any allowance was made, it ought to be by Ali of Parliament. It had been said, that it was not in tended that this should be kept a secret, perhaps it was not, but then why was it not mentioned to Parliament ? Upon the whole, he thought no satil faCtory answer had been given by Ministers, and therefore he should vote for the Motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE R said, he thought this was a - question upon which there could riot be much difference of opinion. Th e Hon. Gentleman did not appear to•him to be quit, accurate in his statement of the facts of the case; It it was really an increase of salary, he' should think that the condat of the Irish Treasury was not be justified, but it was no such thing. The Offi cers employed under the Irish Government, who would have received tool. Irish if they had remain' ed in Ireland, did not receive tool. British ; th e y only received gzl. British, which was equal t° tool. Irish ; and he begged it to he. remembered that those Offices and those Salaries were all esta blishedbefore the Union, when it could not be in contemplation that it would be necessary to bring them over to England. If these Officers were, in addition to the inconvenience they suffered by be ing brought.. over to England, to lose by the eN' change s instead of receiving gal. they would it fart only receive Sal. which he was sure could ne ver be intended. The lion. Gentleman seemed to suppose that these Officers received the whole o f their Salaries in this Country ; that was ogc :e case ; they only received that 'part of it w hicV7; came due dUring their residence in England. Hon. Gentleman seenied to think that the Officet called over here upon public business'ought to 131 . an allowance ; the fan was, they only had theirs travelling expences allowed to them, and that w l e only granted to those in inferior sit ua ti o ns. whole question resolved itself into thiS; Whe tbe- Officers who were brought here tn di , c!:zirze a P u b „," lie duty, ought or ought not to rec e ive the 5 3 „.. 111 " Salary they would have received if they hail remain: ed in Ireland ? _lt appeared to him no doubt could he entertained upon the subje6t, and therefore b j e should vote for the Motion of his Noble Friers (Lord CASTLEREA6I.) Mr. JOHN L ATOUCHE supported the origina l defrayed fr o re, t a: i ty o ea n di , a u bn p y o i this n n lrr t ee h laa e sna g d r ,o o f u v.v n th t h l eer t ie h ra a s i a lri which Salaries was en h ecin nsi relyf the joint expenditure of the Empire, it re,Enwgals a andpoaurtih'e.- to defray the proportion stipulated by the Union. Mr. WINDHAM supported .the original Moti 4 "' and contended, that if the Wlntion f or going i nto the Order of the Day was agreed to, it would giving a tacit sant - lion to the continuance of this praaice. The MASTER of the ROLLS said,' the No laid " . Lord who brought forward this Motion had l down a general principle, to which he could na* accede,. that . if any of the Officers employed und er the Government of Ireland were ordered over I°, this Country, that still they ought to be paitt Ireland, and be subjede.d to all the loss they mu° - sustain by the exchange. He did not mean to coiv tend that.the Officer was entitled to any comPe n r; tion, he only meant to say, that he ought no t ;`) to placed in a worse situation , vii. that he 014;-,n s 03..' receive his Salary in that place where he le manded by his-Superiors to perform his da l Y; would be no answer to the-Irish Officer el ll P' ° A / to .. in th is Country to say, it is true you are force' so . reside in England, but you are doing the hoi ne h J) of Ireland, and therefore you muste paid in 0' money. Upon the same principle the Officers the Board of Controul, who were doi n g the bugl° ness of India in this Country, ought to he paid i ll Indian money: The Officer did not wish to plc" his only wisn was, that he should no lose by he'l compelled to come over to this Country, in t he dls ; 'charge of his public duty. The wholo of this ea' amounted to no more than this, that it was paY &c.ire the satne Salary in a di ff erent place, c. the rel % c he should support the Motion for the Orde r of Day. Dr. LAW&ENCE spoke'in support of tht original Motion. Lord HENRY PETTY said, if the questin, ° w i a c ; • to be decided upon the general not differ from the Right Hon. and Learned Gent4c man, but whatever the justice of the case mig ht uc° d he did not think such a discretion ought to be ve-te. in the Lords of the Irish Treasury • der Mr. ELLIOT wished to know What 00°, 3 his. principle, he stou t -- the Lords of the Treasury had to execute I • Country.? Mr, FR ANC IS supported the Motion. vilol e Mr. THORNTON said, he considered the sta te „ a re of this difficulty to arise from the un f a vourah`, e it of the exchanp between the two Coootrle(l3..for" appeared to him that there was no gr oan ab ed 'charging the Irish Government with having ; ot ili • wrong upon this occasion,. and therefore be see no reason for going into the proposed inclnit"tile• Mr. FOSTER contended, that the Lords °„,dhlic Irish Treasury had no right to grant tlje Money away in,this manner, and said it to the express stipulations of the Uoion• holm Mr. ORMSBY said he had the honour t ° A ihet e ' an Office under the Irish Government , and •,4to fore felt himself unpleasantly situated in risi-tSete acdress the House ; but he contended tha t me at was no ground to charge the Irish Gov et i n - s o c• with having aged illegally or corruptly on t ' l er to. casion. He entered very fully into an ansf an a the several arguments urged on the other sin e ' t he concluded With stating that he should vote for Order of the Day. r he art. Mr. ... •RENVILLE spoke in favour o. t • ginal Motion, and Sir L. PARSONS against it. The MASTER Of the ROLLS explained. t hat The ATTORNEY GENERAL observe d,'cor. from the smallness of the sum in quesrion,,,or . t he ret rapt motive could be imputed, and t he • c ciplc; discussion must necessarily turn upon tile P r w l ot her , and with respect to this he conceived, that er her. , the Officers of the Irish Governme nt came "' iieo ce in consequence of their o fficial . dUry. or i n I t i l b , e ; to the command of their Superior Officer , r to eTicaly entitled to reinuneratico, or at e le " ; ire' -,01, tI , lose by it. AccQrding, however, tt). • 9 2i. used on the other side, they were t° Ireland, in order that Sal • of it might be w hl•-• again to England, to pay the Of GQVC roloe, the 101. weut into the pocket C !~