The Sun. — London, England, 1853-06-17 00:00:00

-4- 111 AL PAR LIAME ROUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The L lE• t • ;)" CHANcELLoit took his seat on the woolsack to clo c k. L ord WEIARNCLIFFE presented a petition from ekueld ' ya/tint Praying that th e support of the Br i t i sh G o - ea ltsta e n a ce be s. given to Turkey in her present difficult cir tit ICONSTITUTION OF THE CAPE COLONY. ,11,..an_swer to Lord PANVIIIEE, C ou i? like of NEWCASTLE said that the orders in oot ri. lately sent out to the Cape of Good Hope, th erring a constitution on that country, were e sau le as the ordinances sent out by Earl Grey far thetio4 approbation of the colonists, with the excep _l! three alterations. The first was to reduce the a - e Zn,lse from fifty pounds to twenty-five pounds ; the ootI v il n e o! , to raise the qualification for members of the th e ta u front 1 ,000/. to 2,0001., and the third, by far cert ain important in his opinion, was the addition of 1i0 a „. 4 words, the effect of which would be that the two to r 8 the Legislature with the assent of the Gover -4104 to colony, should have the power to introduce t tot i c ations in their own constitution, even to the ex tO ( r . being able, subject to the approval of her Majesty, 4 44 ,1 ° 1de the legislative body into two, one for the . 0 ,7 1 11 and d one for the Western part of the colony. jadj'Earl ALBEMARLE presented a petition from a e . neeter on the subject of the future government of LAN D IMPROVEMENT COMPANY BILL. fter kid snrne discussi on this bill was read a second time 4alerred to select committee. R ACKNEY CARRIAGE BILL. be remotion of Lo r d S TANLEY o f Ald er l ey , thi s was a. third time and passed. 00 WHIM:MOOD FOREST BILL. p ort .ue motion of Lord STANLEY (of Alderley), the re agreerl amendments on this bill was brought up and to, Loltt LIOTOUS OBJECTIONS TO OATHS. ti bI e„. BIt ° I TGRAM, pursuant to notice, to present ~nr ir oM certain of the clergy of the Established th at " 0 1 1 1 of Scotland, on the subject of oaths. He stated Oth er e, Petitions came from Edinburgh, Glasgow, and i tic k Ire; and their object was to pray for the aboi inetioo ,tile compulsory taking of oaths in courts of on reli k.'Y per who objected to swearing in any form 1 • 41°118 grounds. The noble lord stated the course trarvaeaeglti tailaattsionfrelvr!th regard to the relief of quakers and taking oaths. He then urged how elttea l la tti l Y en th tio e t a u d iy ministrati on of justice was endangered by 1 ' 6 4 i cTit , g the benefit, of the evidence of those who refused to take an oath, and in criminal toan: a a gnilty per son m i g h t escape an d an innocent •t t l it aese who re f use d to t a k e an oa th, might be so t ,,;" to priso n for contempt of court. He differed eop a i d respect from the petitioners, inasmuch . as he Inte as ' r ega the general abrogation of the necessity of tie a , rig witnesses and a general power to take affii:m . a- Su: ° aid be unadvisable alteration in the adminis 41glii;„°f justice in courts of law. He then praised : oli co r t:: Ls : re : o in de E o n f gl a a d n m d, inistering oaths in the Scottish as Contrasted with the mode in which they were and related an anecdote of a evidentlyca witness, in a case before Lord Kenyon, who .n t o ~did not feel bound by the oath administereti r Er fiki gush form, having the oath administered by ecitt: l L e ' with the permission of the court, in the in 'sti inanner adeffect on the erson gi e l a eqio t. In his o p inion id it would be advisable to Ivit o t° courts discretion, in 'particular cases, where a °vie ss t• refased immoral an oath from a conscier!tious, Ilieh l on of itsty, to take the affirmation of t hat D a n witness. He found that in a number of cases f I:ellq v -1 T had been exercised by judges, and more re- Inawistrates ; but as the case sood it was ; itterral 'eet t o • b On the whole, he thought it was expe 131.°cer.d."°Pt some course which would render . such °tan '`'lng, under the pressure of difficult circum He had brought the subject before the 4t teri e t'i: n ' f be believed it to be one well worthy of their n o . 'AMPBELL also had been entrusted with ease effect from different parts of shed to 014:11:ne effect He believed that the Establ . I P3e e i:°f tngla: d agreed in the necessity of this prim .q4ho—Lng granted for he had the authority of the d cirth o l af London for saying that a man might bea good oat h°ll,,neMber of that church and yet object to take "` 4 lld - c) , l any kind. There were members of the esta !'akereeilo,nn. rches, both in England and Scotland, who ' Included in those whom the law allowed . to f°l ' r o t -rmations, for theymight be committed to prison fe 'ere' ta king an oath. Nor were they the only Rif tiliet; for those who were interested . in the causes era i n n . dieb ue ll persons were witnesses might Buff r ls ev. -41 ee ° Pe that the time had arrived when this . ~nd l pain g removed.it would He agreed his g noble not be good policy to abolish e 1.7 a el; a ; "Is altogether, but as regarded that classwh (1 th e ecru le on the subject of taking an oath, 4 t ? s° who ie p ht suffer by that scruple, takeat ° I 1 t1 1 ;!a this se ni ssion some legislation might ela.tter. r,„CRARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. at ti t' - ' 4ulc ri CHANCELLOR brought up the ß r i e ll p . ort /*ll.Belect Committee on the Charitable Trusts BI 'tlie - 7 34 BERED ESTATES (IRELAND) reading a b. r°111) CHANCELLOR moved the first L - rish Infor continuing the act for the establishmen of i!cilioohallmbered Estates Co . urts. He stated that he i; e lat t C ' l.l communication with the Lord Chancellor . of 14 e to • and it was probable that a commission would e ciiir e iliquire into the best mode of amending the m p i ro ;sttaall the Court of Chancery in Ireland, which might 44tt:," supersede the necessity for the Incumbered o fort.' The present bill proposed to continue Th e att wo years bi ll was read a first time. „ COUNTY COURTS. • i• - t V, I a.,....uUGHAM moved that the return of the fees I „,_t i• l : e t abridge County Court should be printed t. n 4 tv e g r ;Tvr words from several noble lord, the motion -r-e " to, and their lordships adjourned. 40t, Th OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) es b `tkßzit took the chair at 4 o'clock. 4 .14 fm , PRIVATE BUSINESS. a a A bmg bills were read a third time and passed W 0 ed: 4 1 . •h4bdq.,,litovr-,taeo Tail ors ' I ncor p ora ti o n Estate ; Ayrshire e ford Y (Smithstoiri and Dalmellington) Railway; b°ek Extension Railway; East and West India fil' itt tri B e 4 l," Birmingham Junction Railway (No. 2) 2 14 411.. n, elegraph Company of Ireland ; Glasgow and t IZ: 1 11, 4 "e i s i t w e r_n Railway (No. 2) ; Llanidloes and New ; Roscrea and . Parsonstown Junction . • impole Wrestlingworth, and Potton Road , Midland Railway (re -issue of Hull and ' lll Pan urel lase Shares) ; Copper Miners in England ▪ Th c , Oh O e Port the Burford, Leachdale, and Swin -141 ads 131.11P W °11 asconsidered, and agreed to, and the ordered to be read a third time. PETITIONS. • °LlV E'presented several petitions from again RA-Education Bill. Dra), :s, v EAt i l sT ie ted a petition from Sussex, A ' e l for the repeal presented the malt and hop duties. alc' t rl3kle rable number of petitions were presented .I tr the bill for the registration of assurances . . . n 14°11 ; .70°NER presexited a petition from Bilston ?I% lib the ocean penny postage. \l ll -, l 4 \till l e .!.,,ll:Tesentedpetitions from the borough of the co p u_ t of Kerry, the county ti :t ,t ee r. ti totri ot n o u t i . i tol a u er to s n . -on-T i re y nt, against the bill for the t° e AS presented a considerable number of peti -‘ll4. the s ame effect from places in England and Ire t: Abe ,„ , TAUNTON ELECTION. "(In re rs of th e comm it tee on th e Taunton elec Ti : e e 3' re mall to th and sit to-morrowe tabl at 11 e o'clocksworn.. S' . 1r q , PETITIONS. 41 fa G. -eIIELL resented a petition from Brighton e o, -y our ,-1 . i . P postage to all ports in orld_ - an unnorm penny ei,Ntr. l ki • este,,t.. GIBSON' the two petitions from Man 'let. - Praying for the repeal of the Newspaper Stamp , Iti r A "411,1,„7.,PELLATT presented several petitions from k . 4't against the Education Bill. ,batit„,-t-ADFIELD presented a petition from theemini '4 - 141 ' Van Dietnen's Land in the ship Calcutta, . t'lZ i of the ocean penny postage. .. 14 (.1 Q M ANNERS presented a petition from a d p u la t c y o . lA4Mridgeshir 2 . t the attorneys' certificate in I . tt r i;j t r 13 , ME presented eaalns a petition from booksellers tatieli gU, against the printing and publishing of edu to al work s by the Government. 4t,117, K. VANE resented a petition from the . Ro t m t a h n e 'Os ° -e4 o(Darlington and neighbourhood, against :teetion un Bill. kvo,r; 41- 11 ocean INN Presented a petition from Bath, in penny postage. Vi 3 RIVER TIVY, 1 '46 en,not PdVILYN asked the first Lord of the Admi to t4akwoether it was the intention of the Governm e en_t . tai t , t e. aaly steps to carry out the recommendationsencroach- Gores 111 t he, in Washington's report on the % 3a the bed of the river Tivy ~,RAliAll said it was not the intentiont of f f the e lie i '° .'uent to incur any expense on the part LOt ti, i n the removal of the obstructions in the d h rbour. t th ite e:v ii rl Y had gi tici v e e . n w ri ay otice to the parties who haddeposited t e a i %ob eyed that nnootiteteo thedo A so tt f o o rn r t e h y e .G fu e t n u e r r e al reeted to prosecute them. I e i . , 'RISE( TURNPIKE ROADS. wouldd 3- 131 .„.Y to Mr. IVIA.GAN, assurance that AtQp s 1 OUNG declined to give any e , would b e , t , val of ton bars on certain roads in Ireland, observing oval taken by the Government for there ouch re t'r ate rights of the debenture holders. 'lle wouldbe an interference with the NS. el M e r. "PCILSSIFNIETLAXD as A ke N d D the CO C ß ha P n O ce ß ll A or T o l f O the Ex olieciller whethe r he proposed that the succession tax e re,, 11 , (1 a PPIy to Property of corporations, such as the 4 1 h° sPitals of St. Bartholomew, St. Thomas, oaond, titmulehem, held in trust for the relief of the sick p r .I , l l. l ? r _tli_e care and cure of insane persons? said liz,te,4 -311.A.NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER he t itteautietahe other evening that the plan the Governmen e. . 1.411 Y, in lt° propose would apply to corporations gene ter . , c oding corporation s of an eleemosynary chara _ 4 , t t e uut the hon. member would get more clear and , u ntie information on the subject when the plan itself "44 before the house. ADVERTISEMENT DUTY. In Thee to Mr. T. M. G IBBON CRANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING., JUNE 17, 1853. the Government had no intention whatever of proposing any alteration in the advertisement duty, except to re duce it from is. 6d. to 6d. Mr.'T. M. GIBSON said as the resolution now stood, advertisements in books would be liable to the duty, which had not been the case hitherto. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the resolution was open to amendment in that respect. THE LATE AND PRESENT GOVERNMENT AND MR. KEOGH.-EXPLANATIONS. Mr. KEOGH.—Mr. Speaker, in rising to make the statement of which I have given notice, I am sure I shall not seek in vain the indulgent attention of both sides of the house—(hear, hear)—whilst I endeavour to defend myself against charges impeaching my veracity and dero gatory to my personal honour. (Hear, hear.) I have that confidence, because I have observed that no matter what may be our individual or party conflicts, this house is always prepared fairly and candidly to listen to any statement which any one of its members may be driven to make in vindication of his character. Sir, lam not with out a conviction that discussions of this nature are irk some, tedious, and disagreeable to the house. (Hear, hear.) lam not without the conviction—to me a most unpleasant one—that altercations of a personal nature have ton often arisen between the representatives of Ire land. (Hear, bear.) But this I wish to impress upon both sides of the house, and I hope that justice will be done me in this respect, namely, that in this case I am not the aggressor—(hear, hear)—that I have neither sought nor originated this cause of quarrel ; that it has been put on me under circumstances which I do think every mem ber of this house, when they are fully explained to them, will believe are neither consistent with fair play nor with those terms which are conceded to every political oppo nent—which are never denied by any generous man to an absent individual. It will be in the recollection of hon. members that on Friday last, in another place, a discus sion occurred in which my name was much brought into question. To that discussion and the object of it it is not now my intention to allude further than may be necessary as an introduction to the issue raised between myself and the noble lord the member for Coleraine (Lord Naas.) For that discussion I was perfectly unprepared. No notice was given of it to any of my friends, and it was not until a quarter after five o'clock on that day, that, on meeting my hon. friend the member for Roscommon in the lobby, I learned that my name had been introduced into a dis cussion in the House of Lords ; but as I perceive that dis cussion is to be renewed in a formal manner before a proper tribunal, I shall not follow the example of other persons by prejudging that inquiry, and shall confine myself to a vindication of my own character. The discussion to which I refer was originated by a noble marquis, to whom I shall only allude for the purpose of entirely passing over him. (A laugh.) He was followed in that discussion by a noble earl lately at the head of her Majesty's Government, and that noble earl in the course of his speechthought pro per to say that he considered my appointment to the office I now hold a most unfortunate circumstance. Now, lat once say that, however painful it may have been to my feelings tohave heard that observation from so distinguished a person,yot that I do not perceive anything in it which would entitle me to challenge it, as I am about to challenge the observations of another noble personage. Sir, the noble earl was followed by another, a noble and, as I have always heard, a very chivalrous earl ; and he was pleased to say, that he considered my appointment to be the least repu table made by the present Government. Now, I scarcely think the expression I have quoted is justified by any cir cumstance which the noble earl can mention in deteriora tion of my character—l scarcely think there is any rank or station, however exalted, which would justify any person in pronouncing such an opinion—on statements, be it remembered, got at second hand, made twelve months after the transaction, and conveyed by persons whose names are not mentioned (hear, hear) —and made, likewise, without the knowledge of the person most interested in the inquiry. Sir, Ido not think such language is justi fiable in this or any . other house—(hear, hear)—without some facility being given for the person so accused of ex plaining his conduct. But it so pleased the noble earl to pronounce on my appointment. I was at the bar of the ouse of Lords and heard the words used. I immediately communicated with a noble duke, who in a kind and generous manner undertook my defence. I thought the remarks of the noble lord ought not to have proceeded from any one ; but I confess I was surprised to hear the observations of one who had been Viceroy in Ireland, when I knew —when many others knew, and as I shall prove, that the noble lord who now sits opposite to me, and who held the office of chief secretary to that Lord Lieutenant, had sought me with eagerness immediately on the formation of his Government—had pursued me from street to street, and from house to house—having hired not one or two, but friend after friend, in his eager haste to place himself in c ommunication with me, in order that co a mmunication, which I shall presently mention, ly be made by that noble lord. I thought it was thatlike some of these circumstances had reached the ear of the late Viceroy of Ireland—l thought some of them could not but be within the knowledge of the noble earl late the First Minister of the Crown, and I asked the noble duke (New castle) to state the fact to the house—the statement on which the noble lord has joined issue—namely, that when he was named as Chief Secretary for Ireland, on the day when, as he himself stated, there might be some possible doubt whether he would accept the office of Chief Secretary, he sought an interview with me, and asked me whether I would accept office under the Government of Lord Derby. (Ministerial cheers.) The statement I made then is the same that I shall make now—is the same as was made by a noble duke in another place on my behalf—namely, that having sought an interview the noble lord opposite did ask me whether I would accept office under the Government of Lord Derby. (Hear, hear.) I admit it was rather a perilous issue for any man to 'take with an other; but I confided in the noble lord's honour, and I trusted to the accuracy of his memory. But, sir, what are the circumstances which it will be necessary to men tion before I read the document to which I desire to refer? In the first place, it will be in the recollection of the house that nine or ten days after all the appointments of the Earl of Derby's Government were made the noble lord opposite was named for the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I confess that, not at the time having the remotest idea that I could be in any way interested or concerned in the formation of Lord Derby's Government, I took no interest in the subject. (A' laugh.) However, the noble lord op posite was in communication with my honourable friend the member for Tipperary. He was very anxious in his inquiries about me. He asked the member for Tipperary to take him to my private residence ; he could not find me there. He then went to the Reform Club, of which I was not then a member. He inquired there for me. Ido not know whether this has escaped the noble lord's memory — Lord NAAS.—No. Mr. KEOGH.—At all events, I will refresh the memory of the noble lord. The noble lord, as I have said, went to the Reform Club, and not finding me there, he inquired my address. He waited in that great hall, which, when ministries aro changing, may not improperly be called a political encampment. (A laugh.) Ido not suppose lam making any grave charge against hon. members who sur round me when I say that the noble lord's presence there caused great surprif,e, and that hon. members were seized with a justifiable curiosity to ascertain the cause of his business. (A laugh.) In fact, the noble lord was the ob served of all observers, and it became perfectly known that his business in having recourse to that club was to ascertain where I could be found, in order to see me on the business with which I shall presently deal. I have since inquired as to what I knew at the time, and this is the account given by the hon. member for Middlesex, to whom I applied on the subject : " June 15, 1853. My dear Keogh,—You wish to know whether I can remember the circumstance of Lord Naas calling at the Reform Club and making inquiries respecting your residence, at that particular period of last year when Lord Derby was forming his administration. I have a distinct recollection of meeting Lord Naas in the Reform Club, during that period ; the fact of his visit to the Reform Club was the more im pressed on my mind from the peculiar position of parties at that moment, especially as it was shortly afterwards com monly reported that you had been asked if you were willing to accept office under Lord Derby's government. This im pression was subsequently confirmed by your stating to me that Lord Naas had expressly asked if you were disposed to take office under the new admistratiou of Lord Derby. " I am very truly yours, OSBORNE," But (contined Mr. Keogh) the noble lord was not successful in finding me there. I think, however, I may conclude from his two visits to the club, that he was extremely anxious to see me. Sir, it will be in the recollection of hon. members that the noble earl lately at the head of her Majesty's Government distinctly stated that he had heard this rumour before ; that it had been put about by friends of mine on my appointment under the present Administra tion ; and that he had directed a friend to circulate the disclaimer which he repeated in the House of Lords. But it is curious that after that declaration of the noble earl, a late Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland should have risen in his place and declared that this was the first time he had heard the rumour, and consequently he had never heard the contradiction. (Hear.) Whether, sir, that rumour was so first heard or not , I lef t the bar of the House of Lords and came here, and without hesitation, and without deliberating with any other persons, I addressed to the noble lord the letter I shall now read:— " Reform Club, Friday Evening. " Dear Lord Naas,—l have just returned from the bar of the House of Lords, where I heard Lord Eglinton state that he considered my nomination to the office I now hold the least reputable of those made by the present Government. " Upon hearing this, I at once communicated with the Duke of Newcastle, and authorised him to state that imme diately upon the change of Government in the year 1852, and before the ministerial arrangements of Lord Derby had been completed, I was asked by your lordship whether I would accept office under Lord Derby's Government, a question which I had answered in the negative. The Duke of Newcastle stated this to their lordships, and thereu pon Lord Derby in the most explicit manner denied that he had ever authorised any such proceeding, and I therefore at once address you upon the subject. " It will be in your recollection that shortly after Lord Derby had undertaken the formation of his Ministry you called at my club at least twice on the one day, leaving on each occasion your card, and subsequently a note, requesting to see me at your house upon the following morning. I called, but did not see you, as you afterwards informed me by some mistake on the part of your servant, and you again wrote, requesting that I should call upon yon. I did so ; and after sonic conversation of no importance you stated that you had been directed to ask whether I would accept office under Lord Derby. " I, jestingly, asked you if you intended to make me Chan cellor of the Exchequer, President of the Board of Control, or some such offer. You replied, that you had asked me a serious question and expected a serious answer. (A laugh.) I reminded you that you had not stated by what authority you put the question ; and you replied, at Major Beresford's desire, adding, that he was in communication with Lord Derby. I then told you that it was impossible for me to join Lord Derby's Government. " Major Beresford having subsequently spoken to me, in a deprecating tone, of the opposition I thought it my duty to give to Lord Derby's Government in the House of Commons, reminded me, when I expressed my surprise at his remon strance, that I had been asked to take office by you, and that he felt my hostility the more as he was the person who had spoken with Lord Derby in reference to my name. " With the distinct recollection of these facts on my mind, I need scarcely say how much Lord Derby's declara tion surprised me, and I have therefore to request that your lordship, as a matter of justice to me, will, in reply, state that the narrative I have given of my interview with you is sub stantially correct. " Our friend Mr. Anthony O'Flaherty was aware of your calling upon me at my club. I showed him your notes as I received them, and within half an hour after the interview commun icated to him the detail s of our conversation. I have last sentence I have read in the presence of the hon. mem.- now read to him this letter, and he perfectly concurs with me as to the accuracy of my recollection. " I remain, dear Lord Naas, yours faithfully, " WILLIAM KEOGH." Whatever else this letter proves, sir, I think at least the ber for Galway disposes of the issue put forward by a noble earl in another place, that this rumour first transpired after my appointment. I sent that letter to the noble lord on the Friday evening, and I had no reason to think the noble lord was not in town. I saw him myself very near town on the previous day. I waited for an answer until the Saturday, and towards evening I asked whether he had arrived at his club. I was told that he was ex pected. I inquired on the Sunday, but could receive no answer. On the Monday, being very anxious that this matter should be decided here--- Lord NAAS—(Hear, hear.) Mr. KEOGH—The noble lord cheers, but has he been anxious throughout that it should be decided here ? Has he been desirous from the commencement that the whole matter should come before this house as the proper tribu nal. Was he anxious yesterday—to-day—or even half an hour ago ? But, sir, on Monday I wrote another letter to the noble lord in these words : " Reform Club, Monday. " Dear Lord Naas,—l addressed a letter to you on Friday evening to the Carlton, and on inquiry on Saturday and yes terday was informed that you had not been in town. I called this day at your house, and was told that you are still absent.. May I beg the favour of a reply as soon as possible after your arrival. " Dear Lord. Naas, truly yours, " WILLIAM KEOGH." Now, I am quite sure the noble lord was out of town on the Saturday and Sunday, but he arrived in town on the Monday, and he had my letter before he came to this house. Of this the house may be sure, as he significantly enough asked a friend of mine whether this question was likely to be brought before the House of Commons. Ele was in the divisions which took place in this house on that day, and he received my two letters. About two o'clock on the second day, before the noble lord and a gallant friend of his entered the house, they left for me at the Reform Clnb the letter I shall now read to the house. I do not wish to deprive the noble lord of any advantage he may derive from this letter. I will give his letter word for word, and will read it with all the emphasis I can command. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) That part of the letter which appears to give the most direct negative to what I have asserted is the part on which I most rely— (hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—because some thing tells me that, although the noble lord was of this mind at two o'clock on Tuesday last, he has seen reason to think very differently, and that he will speak very differ ently when he now rises to address the house. Here is his letter : "4, Grosvenor-place, Tuesday. " Dear Sir,—l only received your note last night on my return to town after an absence of some days. " I distinctly deny that, either directly or indirectly I made an offer of office to yourself or to any of your friends, or that I had, or that I assumed I had, authority from anyone so to do. (Opposition cheers.) " As to the interview which took place between us about the period to which you refer, my recollection of it so essen tially differs from the version given by yourself, that I can not admit its accuracy or the deductions you seem to have drawn from it. (Opposition cheers.). " Truly, yours, Well, I say no language can be more positive or precise or more comprehensive than this which conveys his denial that he made me any offer. But does the noble lord mean by that denial merely to deny an offer of office, or does he mean to deny that which I asserted—namely, that he asked me "would I accept office?" If the noble lord means by that denial not only the offer of office, but the only thing I asserted—namely, that he asked me whether I would accept office—he being the Chief Secretary for Ireland — I ask him what he means by the word "indirectly ?" My only desire is to vindicate my own honour and veracity, which have been impeached in the most sweeping terms by the noble earl at the head of the government to which he then belonged. And what were the words of the noble earl? He said, " I heard the rumour for the first time after the appointment of Mr. Keogh had called forth a great deal of observation in Ireland, and had been loudly condemned." Now, sir, if Igo to those organs of public opinion, not only in Ireland, but in this country, with which the noble earl is supposed to have the most com munity of feeling, and which were known to express the wishes of the noble lord's Government when he was in power, I think that, so far from giving condemnation to that appointment, they rather selected it for approbation. (Oh, oh, and hear, hear.) The noble lord proceeded :—" I heard that it was then put forth by the friends of Mr. Keogh that such an offer had been made to him. I lost no time in authorising every person who had heard it to state, on my authority, that I did not know—that I did not ad dress, neither did I believe then, nor do I believe now, that any such offer, proposition, suggestion, or hint was at any time made to Mr. Keogh." Now the noble earl holds the highest position in this country. The noble lord opposite occupies a position to which one in my humble and inferior station cannot aspire. Of course it would be impro per to question the veracity either of the noble earl or of the noble lord ; but let me now ask the noble lord the member for Coleraine, who now sits opposite to me—who now hears my words, and who shall hear further evidence —has he been labouring under a misapprehension or not when he says that no " offer, proposition, suggestion, or hint " was ever so conveyed to me ? I will now turn to the letter of the noble lord. What, let me ask, is the mean ing of that portion of it where he denies that he ever made an offer of office ? I never asserted that he did. (Oh.) I trust, if any hon. member thinks I did, he will rise in his place and say when and where. lam not now an absent man. I may lack the ability, but I have good heart and purpose to defend myself. I state distinctly, and I have in my hand and in this house a body of evidence to that effect which cannot be controverted, that I never said the noble lord had offered me office. But I stated—not since my appointment, but half an hour after my conversation with the noble lord, and days after to the honourable and gallant member for Middlesex, eo instanti to the hon.member for Galway, that the noble lord asked me " Would I ac cept office ?" I have evidence, I say, to establish what I say ; and I trust the honest British public will not allow those facts to be upset by prevarication. But did the noble lord in passing by my statement that he had sought me twice at my club—did he mean to deny or to assent to that statement. Did he mean to deny that he had written me two notes on two consecutive days ; and, with regard to the offer, does he mean to say that ho admits, or denies, or forgets it ? When ho passed over that portion of my letter where I alluded to Chancellorship of the Exchequer, and he said lie wanted from me a serious answer, did he mean to deny, to admit, or to say that he had forgotten that offer? Finally, I wish to ask the hon. and gallant member for North Essex (Major Beresford) whether, when on taking me from the outside of the door there to the window of that division lobby, he did not (and I do not use the phrase disrespectfully to him) whiningly complain of the attacks I was then making on Lord Derby's Government ? When I stated to him that I had a perfect right to take what course I thought proper, and expressed surprise at his remonstrance, did the hon. and gallant member say to me "Of course you had ; but we expected better things from you, seeing that Lord Naas had asked you to accept office ?" I want to know, also, when the noble lord said he had the authority of the hon. and gallant member for North Essex to put to me that question, did he mean to admit that he had mentioned the right hon. gentleman's name, or to deny it ? The me mory of the right hon. gentleman, I am sure, is accurate enough for my purpose ; and lest I should be mistaken in that supposition, I would remind him that there was a member of this house, an hon. and learned friend of mine, the member for Cork (Mr. Serjeant Murphy), who, at the time, was very close to me and to the right hon. gentleman when the conversation or remonstrance to which I have referred took place. The hon. and learned serjeant was in the house and heard me and the right hon. gentleman in conversation. He hoard the tones of the right hon. gentleman and thought that something very odd was going on. (A. laugh.) The hon. and learned member asked me at once what had been going on between us ? And here let me say, that this occurred, not since my appointment by the present Government ; that this was not got up for the occasion, as Lord Derby would insinuate, but took place when the noble lord opposite and the right hon. gen tleman were both in office, and before the last dissolution of Parliament. Eo instanti, and forming part as it were of the res gestce of the case, the hon. and learned member asked me what the right hon. gentleman had been saying ? I replied that he had been " rowing" me for my attacks on the Chancellor of the Exchequer. lam sure the right hon. gentleman did not regard them as such —(a laugh)— and assigned as a reason the offer which had been made to me. Now, when I called the attention of the noble lord opposite to that conversation, did ho mean to admit, to deny, or to forget it ? He will have an opportunity of explaining. But the noble lord states in another part of his letter that the conclusion to which he arrived as to the result of the interview was quite different from mine. I ask him when that impression first entered his mind that he had had a conversation with me in which a phrase was used, that under the circumstances might have induced me to suppose that if office would be accepted it would be offered ? Now, I want to know, is that the impression upon the noble lord. I ask the noble lord now to inform the house—no matter what he wrote upon Tuesday last at two o'clock—no matter what he wrote before I came down here, at the very earliest moment after the noble lord's denial was reasserted in another place—no matter what he wrote before then—is he now of opinion that at that in terview he did use the phrase that " under the circum stances he might have induced the hon. and learned gen tleman to give a reply, in case it had been the intention of the Earl of Derby to ask him to take office, would he accept of it ?" If the noble lord wants the exact words, I can write them down for him ; but perhaps as the noble lord is taking notes, he may have a copy of them. lam defending myself. I only want to sustain my veracity— ply own personal honour—for it has been most grossly assailed— (loud cheers from the Ministerial benches) and it has been assailed with very unequal odds. (Hear, hear.) Yes, a man in the humble position I hold has been assailed in all the powers, rank, and in fiuence of the late Government in another place. I have not been asked whether I could explain anything that has been urged against me. I have not had the common cour tesy of the ordinary notice extended to me. (Renewed cheers.) But no, the noble earl was determined to have me down. (Cheers.) He says, " I do not believe that any suggestion , proposition, offer, or hint, over was made by any person on my behalf, or acting on behalf of the Go vernment, of office to the hon . and learned gentleman." I ask the noble lord is that true? Well, I now come to an other branch of this case, which, if all I have already stated were out of the case, would place the noble lord in a very unenviable position. I recollect the noble lord held a conversation with a person beside myself. lam now about to make mention of a friend of the noble lord's, an early friend, not known now for the first time, or since the noble lord came into Parliament—a gentleman to whose veracity and high character I have no hesitation in asking the noble lord to speak. I recollect distinctly, in the sum mer of last year, an hon. friend of mine, a brother of a member of this house, t e lling me that he had met the noble lord, and that he was loud in his complaints at my conduct in Parliament. That gentleman, sir, is the brother of the hon. member for Galway (Mr. O'Flaherty), an inti mate frieed of the noble lord ; and the gentleman referred but the ° nthte noble the e same lto was als o a can did a t e a t th e l a st general election for the over iena with teso h borough of D ungarvan. Th a t gen tleman left Engl a nd d o is r s d ol wt u ran t as i i on p , and he happened not only to travel pleased d h tethdeirneeotblehisloreed,nvbeursat conversation also him um b b y le t a h n e i sa nd m i e vi p d a u c a k l et as to l Tarmel.anld, haveand observations bs e perfectr vat: recollection my hon. friend mentioning and th i crossed this circumstance. I therefore applied to him the moment I received the letter of the noble lord from lreland, to give me as accurate an account as possible of what had occurred because his statement was at right of the noble lord, and I will proceedangles with the letter to read it • and the noble lord is not aware of the existen ce from hon. friend, because, althou g h I have ofbeen such a letter a very different manner, I thought, and treated my right friend thought, that it was right and prop er thathe noble lord should have a knowledge of the existence of such a " NAAS." written statement. Accordingly my hon. friend wrote to the noble lord, that " altbsugh nothing was further from his intention than to say or do anything disagreeable to the noble lord, he felt bound, as a matter of justice, to give the benefit of his testimony, either here or elsewhere, should my character be attacked." Here is Mr. O'Flaherty's letter : :97, jermyn-street, June 15, 1853. "My dear Keogh,—l have a perfect recollection of the conversation between me and Lord Naas to which you refer as having been communicated to you shortly after its occurrence. It took place during a journey to Ireland last summer, when we were both going over to our respective elections. He spoke in terms of much disappointment and regret at what he considered your ungrateful conduct, in making an attack, a few evenings previous in the house, on Mr. Disraeli, as they had deserved a kinder consideration from you, after the feeling evinced in his having sent for you and asked you whether you would take office .under the Go vernment of Lord Derby. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Lord Naas never mentioned to me whether or not he made this offer by direction of any other person, but he dwelt much on Mr. Disraeli's kind feeling towards you, and said that the step he had taken entitled them at least to have looked for a more generous forbearance. " I thought he desired his remarks to be conveyed to you, and I mentioned them when I saw you. I have written to Lord Naas, apprising him of my having given you this letter, but I trust, unless absolutely necessary, you will not bring my name in question,, as, independent of other feelings, I should be very sorry personally to take any course disagree able to him. " I remain, very faithfully, " EDMUND O'FLAHERTY." Now, I wrote to my hon. friend, begging him to be as pre cise and accurate as he could be with regard to the inter view ; and I again say, that whatever the noble lord may be disposed to offer by way of explanation to this house, I do not think he will venture to throw any doubt upon the veracity of his and my friend. Well, perhaps the noble lord will be good enough to explain to the house how it came to pass that he had informed this gentleman, previ ous to the last general election, that he had expected a kinder consideration from me, in consequence of his having sent for me to ask me to accept office ; and how does he re concile that statement with this contained in his letter—" I distinctly deny that, either directly or indirectly, I made an offer of office to the hon. and learned gentleman." (Cheers.) Now, I well recollect, although the noble lord addresses me in such very curt terms, although he does not think it proper to go into any explanations with ma upon the contents of my letter—and I am sure my letter was framed in no hostile spirit towards him—l believe I merely asked him to do me a matter of justice, which I fully expected (cheers from the Ministerial benches)—l perfectly recollect, I say, the circumstances under which my acquaintance with the noble lord grew. He and I entered this house together, and for six years we sat upon the benches opposite together. The noble lord entered the house under the auspices—to use no stronger word— of that great statesman, to whose party, however, he after wards acted in opposition ; but, in conjunction with the noble lord, at the time, I gave my support to the com mercial policy of that eminent man. For a time—indeed to the end—l continued to give that support to the same party, although not in company with the noble lord. Bat I was frequently in this house thrown into personal communication with the noble lord, and I distinctly recol lect that there were other subjects of conversation between us, which perhaps I may bring back to the noble lord's mind. At the time when the noble lord sought the inter view with me ' and asked whether I would accept office or not under Lord Derby's Government, the noble lord was then in a difficulty. The noble lord was offered—and an hon. and learned friend of mine who sits upon the other side of the house has had the candour to tell me that he would rise in his place in the house to affirm my statement as regards this matter—but the noble lord upon the very day on which he sought the interview with me, or rather on the very day on which he obtained that interview, had been offered the Chief Secretaryship of Ireland, though ho had not as yet accepted it. Now I will ask my honour able and learned friend the member for Youghal (Mr. Butt), does ho not recollect my coming out of the house of the noble lord ? I remember meeting him. And I remem ber at the same time I told my hon. and learned friend that he was a political supporter of the noble lord ; and that, great as might be the disclosure to be made, I did not wish in any way to take advantage of it to his detriment. Greatly to the credit of my hon. and learned friend—(loud cries of hear, hear)—he at once said—he frankly, and with out a moment's hesitation, said—" no matter whether it is disagreeable to me or not—no matter what may be the consequences to me—you have a right to my testimony here or elsewhere—(renewed cries of hear, hear)- and un questionably (he continued) you shall have that testimony, and moreover, you shall have this from me, that I was kept waiting in the noble lord's ante-room during the in terview which you were holding with him." But the noble lord did discuss other questions ; for let not the noble lord think I shrink for a single moment from placing before the house everything of which even I have the most remote recollection in the transactions between himself and me. Well, he inquired of me whether I or any of my parlia mentary friends were disposed to offer him any opposition? I at once shall say what I repeated to the noble lord—and the noble lord sits there opposite to me, having declined to do me justice, although ho knows that from that time up to the period of the general election I have remained under a weight of slander and obloquy aimed at me in a manner such as only can be done by the Irish press. (Cheers.) They charged me with having sold the county of Kildare—the liberties of Kildare—they charged me with having made a compact—a corrupt compact—with the noble lord—with regard to the representation of that county. The noble lord perilled my 'political position—inconsequential as it is—he perilled my seat in Parliament at a time it was of importance to me, when with a line, with a breath, he could have dissipated all that slander, all those calumnies, by proving their unsubstantiality. (Ministerial cheers.) And it was open to the noble lord to have relieved me of that obloquy—it was open to him to have done me that measure of justice which he knew he could have done by a single line. But I repeat these words—which I hope the noble lord has taken down if they are not fixed in his mind and memory—that "ho did use a phrase which might have induced the hon. and learned gentleman to suppose that there was an intention upon the part of Lord Derby to offer him office." Well, the noble lord asked me as to his prospects for the county of Kildare on that or a sub sequent occasion. He asked me whether any of my po litical friends would oppose him ? I told him that, "as far as I was personally concerned," that I would not op pose him, nor would any of my political friends do so." I freely confess I sympathised with the noble lord. and I did not wish to see the noble lord's ambition baffled for want of a seat. (Hear.) But the conversation happened at a time in conjunction with other matters, the recollec tion of which may serve to bring other matters contained in my letter more clearly to his mind. I ask this house to fix their attention upon this solemn, unequivocal, un reserved denial of the noble lord, that "either directly or indirectly he made no offer of office to me." I ask the noble lord, calling these specific words to his recollection, reminding him that I never asserted, that I do not now assert, nor never shall assert, that the noble lord asked me to accept office. But without that being the case, we all know what his words mean. Is there any politican in this house so jejune as for a moment to doubt what was the meaning of the inquiries of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, " Will you accept office under Lord Derby's Government if you are offered it ?" (Ministerial cheers.) And recollect that was before the formation of Lord Derby's Government was concluded ; for, according to the hon. and learned member for Youghal, it was upon the day on which the noble lord opposite was offered, but had not yet accepted office. Recollect this ; and I ask any hon. member what is the meaning of such words ? Why, was it not put as if a gentleman were to go and say, suppose I were to ask you to take office, what would be your answer ? Or if, perhaps, shifting the expression in the ingenious manner the noble lord had said, suppose you had been asked by Lord Derby to take office, would you have accepted of it?" Really the position which the noble lord would assume reminds me of that of a gentleman say ing to a lady, " suppose I were to ask you to marry me, what would be your answer ?" and that he were then to turn round and say, he never meant to propose to her at all. (Roars of laughter.) I feel, should be insulting the understanding of the house if were to ask it to put any other interpretation upon the inquiry of the noble lord. No matter how the noble lord may vary the words, if he admits, as I cannot but believe he must admit—l use the words inoffensively—l have a perfect conviction he did use a phrase which, under the circumstances, was cal culated to lead me to believe that I would be ten dered office if I would accept it. And let me say that I am taught by my experience as a professional man, that when persons have committed themselves by making admissions, that they scarcely ever are able to screw up courage enough to withdraw those admissions. Then, if that is the case, what becomes of the denial of the noble lord, and which was repeated on Tuesday night last a denial that " neither directly nor indirectly" the noble lord had made me an offer of office. I came down to the house as early as I could, and I gave notice of my intention to bring the question under review. I was a pprised by the hon. member for Roscommon (Mr. F. French) that the noble earl (Lord Eglinton) intended to bring the question under the notice of the other house. I sent my friend to the noble lord, saying that it was not fair to bring t h e matter forward untirl had made a reply. I thought it but fair that a little time should be allowed me for my defence, but the answer given by that noble earl was, that he was pledged to the noble lord here to repeat his solemn and unequivocal denial, and accordingly it was again re peated. The some is now shifted, and the noble lord and I are now in presence of each other. (Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) The house has heard my statement —it has heard the letters read, which I have placed with out reserve before it. (Renewed cheers.) I ask, then, the house and the country to consider whether the probabilities of this case are with me or with the noble lord, and whe ther, even if the testimony of those disinterested witnesses whom I have called on were placed wholly out of view— I ask, may I not presume with reason that tho verdict will remain with me, despite of anything which may fall from the noble lord? (Great cheering.) Viscount NAAS —I rise, under circumstances of a very extraordinary nature, to claim the attention of the house, not for an hour and ten minutes, as the hon. and learned gentleman has done, but for a very much shorter time, for the purpose of making a statement which shall be unorna mented by the flowers of rhetoric, or by the eloquent words which we have heard from the hon. gentleman, but will bo a simple statement of the truth. (Loud cheers from the Opposition benches.) Sir, I have listened for the last hour and five minutes to the betrayal of private confidence —(cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial benches, and cheers from the Opposition)—l have listened to the be trayal of private confidence —I have heard the betrayal of private conversation, and a distortion of the words used in those conversations. (Opposition cheers.) Under those circumstances, I do not think it is incumbent on me, nor is it necessary for me, to follow the hon. and learned gen tleman through all the web of deductions which he has drawn from the facts ho has laid before the house. I have a simple statement to make, and a simple statement I will make, undeterred by the eloquence and undismayed by the threats of the hon. and learned gentleman—(cheers) and my statement will be materially different in almost all its facts from the statement which we have heard from the hon. and learned gentleman. (Cheers.) I think I shall be able, when I conclude that statement, to appeal to the house and ask them to consider which of the statements they will believe. (Hear.) Unpractised I own I am in debate, and unable I may be to follow the hon. and learned gentleman through the variety of topics he has introduced, but I do say I feel convinced that every word I utter is nothing but the truth, and fortunately my memory is ac curate on the facts lam going to state. (Hear, hear.) I will first refer to the terms on which I have been with the hon. and learned gentleman during the earlier part of the last Parliament. We certainly came into Parliament to gether—we sat on the Opposition side of the house—the ' hon. and learned gentleman was a member of the Carlton elub, to which I also belonged—and though we differed in many essential points during the earlier period of our par liamentary career, a very friendly feeling existed between us. (Hear, hear.) I recollect that at very many periods during the year I had constant communications on many points of a most friendly nature with the hon. and learned gentleman, both in this house and out of it. (Hear, hear.) When we came to the time to which he has alluded, it is not to be wondered that I should have felt myself justified in communicating unreservedly with the hon. and learned gentleman ; but little did I think that, in eighteen months afterwards, such a statement should be made by him, be cause an attack was made upon him in another place, and statements there made which I do not believe the hon. and learned gentleman will be able to confute, though he has already denied them. (Hear.) I do not believe that he will be able to deny those statements any more than he will be able to confirm the statement which he has made this after noon in this house. (Hear.) A little before the formation of the late Government I was in constant communication with the hon. and learned gentleman on the subject of a mo tion which then fell to my lot to bring before the house. My eommunications.with that hon. and learned gentleman were frequent upon that occasion ; he called often at my house and I saw him often at other places. Tho motion to which I allude was a motion which I felt it my duty to make with regard to the conduct of the then Lord Lieutenant of Ire land. That hon. and learned gentleman was fully conver sant with the facts of the case. He told me on that occa sion that he intended to take part in the debate, and that he intended to speak in favour of my resolution ; but when the debate took place he did not take part in it, because, having been engaged professionally in the case, I believe he did not think it right to do so. The very day after that motion was made and defeated, the then Government was overthrown. My motion was made on Thursday—the divi sion on the motion of the noble lord opposite (Lord Palmer ston) took place on Friday—and on Saturday Lord Derby accepted from her Majesty the task of forming a Ministry. Shortly after—l cannot recollect which day, but I think it was Tuesday—an intimation was made to me that it was very probable I should be offered office—dependent, •f course, on the probability of my re-election. (Hear.) I thought it was no breach of confidence—l thought I might safely refer to a member of an opposite party, and a poli tical opponent, and ask him whether it was likely or not that I should be opposed at my election. Between the Monday and Thursday I think I had three or four commu nications with him on the subject, and I think the house will admit that in those communications there was nothing that any man had a right to reproach himself with. Ido not understand what the allusion means that was made by the hon. and learned gentleman with regard to his character and the attacks that were made upon him by the Dublin press. I own I was surprised that the part he took on that occasion had exposed him to such malignant attacks ; but I admit that I was met with a most friendly feeling by the hon. and learned gentlemen, and that in a friendly way he did exert himself, without compromising his own opinions, to save me from a contest at that time. On the day to which the hon. gentleman alludes, I had the interview with him to which he refers. It is perfectly true that I did seek tho hon. and learned gentleman in the way he described, but really I desired to speak to the hon. gentleman on mat ters of some importance, the most important of which was my own election. (Ironical cries of Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Honourable gentlemen may smile, but do they mean to say they do not believe what I am stating? If any hon. gentleman does mean to say so, let him stand up in this house, and I shall be prepared to meet him. (Cheers from the Opposition.) On the day in ques tion that that interview took place, the honourable and learned gentleman came into my room. Ido not in the least degree deny that I was not able to find him at the Reform Club, and I wrote a note to his residence requesting to see him, but I did not fix the day exactly. When the hon. gentleman came into my room, we discussed for some time different topics connected with various interests. Amongst them was the subject of the election, and I recollect dis tinctly what I said to the hon. and learned gentleman. (Hear.) This is the question on which, with the answer to it, this whole charge is founded—(hear, hear); and I think when the house hears them it will admit that a more serious charge was never made on such trumpery grounds. (Hear, hear.) When the house hears the question and the answer, I will allude to the circumstances under which that question was put and the answer was given, and I will tell the house the reason why I put that question. (Hear, hear.) I asked the hon. and learned gentleman in perfect confidence, never thinking that the question would ever be made an engine of to endeavour to damage my character. (Cries of oh, oh.) I asked him this que:• tion—" If office had been offered to you under the new Government, would you or your friends have accepted it ?" (Oh, oh, hear, hear, and cheers from the Ministerial benches.) I fully admit that I asked that question ; it may have been an imprudent question, but I can safely say it was not put with the intention which the hon. and learned gentleman has assumed. (Hear, hear.) He made an answer, which I recollect as distinctly as the question. (Hear, hear.) His answer was this—" I think that, after all that has occurred—after the part that I and my friends have taken in the overthrow of the late Government — some such offer might have been made." (Loud cries of hear, from the Opposition.) After that we proceeded to discuss the various topics connected with the prospects of party at that time, and the hon. and learned gentleman in the course of that conversation asked me a question which I thought was rather peculiar. (Hear.) He asked me whether any person in authority authorised me to ask that question. (Hear.) I said—" As you ask me the question, I can tell you that Mr. Beresford knew of my asking this question." (Oh, and hear.) The hon. gentlemen opposite seem to think they have made a most notable dis covery, by their cheers ; but when I tell them of the inter view I had with my right hon. friend (Mr. Beresford) a few hours before they will not be prepared to sneer in the way they do. (Hear.) I gave that answer because I was bound in honour to tell the truth, and I did tell the truth to the hon. and learned gentleman on that occasion. The question was put with a different object from that which the hon. and learned gentleman has given the house to understand. The reason I put the question was, that I had a communi cation a few hours before with my right hon. friend (Mr. Beresford). I was walking in St. James's-square, and met my right hon friend. I stopped him, and asked tho news, and commenced a conversation. I said to him most dis- tinctly, " I wonder what position in the new Parliament the Irish party are likely to take with regard to the Go vernment ? He said he did not know. I said—" lam on friendly and intimate terms with an hon. member of that party "—alluding to the hon. and learned gentleman op posite, who makes this attack. (Oh, oh,) "I can have no hesitation in asking the question—and I will ask him the question—for I had intended to ask him the question as a matter of information for myself, whether he would have accepted office, or was disappointed in not getting it." (Hear, hoar.) The right hon. gentleman then made this statement to me :—" You may say at the same time, from me, that the Government have no unfriendly feeling what ever towards them." (Hear, hear, and laughter.") This is the reason why, when the hon. gentleman asked me that question, I was bound in honour to say that Mr. Beresford knew of my asking him the question. I put it to him. (Hear, hear.) But Ido say this—that the right hon. gen tleman never authorised me to make an offer of office to the hon. and learned gentleman. He never authorised me to ask the question, because I told him myself that I was about to ask the question ; but he did authorise me to make the statement with regard to the friendly feeling of the Government towards the hon. and learned gentleman and his party. (Hear, hear.) I had so great an objection to making what are called " authorised communications" of any kind, that I did not give the message of my right hon. friend to the hon. and learned gentleman ; and, in further proof of my statement. I may say that I never did, until the day before yesterday, mention the result of that interview to any one single living man. (Hear, hear.) When the hon. and learned gentleman left the room, after our interview, the impression left on my mind was this — that in the answer he gave to me, and in the subsequent conversation we had, we discussed it in that spirit, and I thought he left the room with the impression that no offer of office was likely to bo made to him or to his party. I will do him the justice to say that my impression was that if the offer had been made to him it would have been re fused. (Hear.) Let me now call the attention of the house to the day on which the alleged offer of office was made. (Hear, hear.) It was stated to have been made on Thursday, and every office under the Government was filled up then. (Hear, hear.) The authorised list of the new appointments had appeared that morning in the news papers, and it is quite impossible that the hon. and learned gentleman, looking to that fact, can pretend to say, by any construction he could put upon the words, that any offer of office was then intended. (Hear, hear). I fully grant that, taking the words by themselves, unaccompanied by the statement I have made, which I declare on my honour to be perfectly true, there is great probability in the in ference which the hon. and learned gentleman drew from him. (Hear, hear.) But I can safely say that I put the question merely as a matter of conversation, and not with any view of drawing any admission from the honourable and learned gentleman. I merely asked him for my own information what were his feelings as to the non-offering of office to him and his party, and not with any other view. That is the statement I have to make to the house concerning the interview I had with the hon. and learned gentleman ; and when I assure the house again and again that I never did mention the subject of that interview to any man connected with the Government, or to any other person whatever, I can lay my hand on my heart and ask the house to believe that every word I say is the truth. (Cheers.) A letter has been produced, which I own filled me with considerable astonishment, setting forth that I had stated, whilst travelling in a railway carriage, that I had made an offer of office to the hon. and learned gentle man. It is perfectly impossible I could have made that statement; and I cannot doubt that the hon. gentleman who makes that assertion of what is untrue must have been under some strange mistake. Would the house believe that I mentioned such a subject to the hon. gentleman, who was a political oronent, which I never mentioned to any other person ? Hear, hear.) I have now told my story as to those private communications, and perhaps, viewed through the light of parliamentary practice, there may be some gentlemen that may not be disposed to attach credence to all that I have said ; but, be that as it may, in this matter I feel there is nothing whatever with which to reproach myself. (Hear.) I communicated freely and frankly with the honourable and learned gentleman under the circumstances which I have related ; and when I was asked the question upon which he has laid so much stress, and which I answered with truth, but the answer to which has been fixed upon as a mode of implicating not only me, but distinguished indivi duals, I think the circumstances show the low idea that certain persons in this country have of the honour which ought to characterige the intercourse of gentlemen (Hear, hear.) But I feel that the ingenuity which the honourable and learned gentleman has shown will not avail him ; I believe the proofs which I have adduced, accom panied by the pledge of my own honour and word for the truth of all that I have stated, will be sufficient to induce the house and the country to believe that I have apoken according to the exact facts of the case. I must say I freely admit that I may have committed an error in the course I took, but it was an error, not of principle, but of judgment ; and I committed that error of judgment, because I believed I could confidently, freely, and frankly communicate with e a man who, although a politi cal opponent, I at that time believed to be a friend. (Cheere.) I regret that in these days Parliamentary warfare seems to be degenerating into mere recriminatory strife, and that private confidence may be violated if the object be to damage a political opponent in the public estimation. Such, sir, will never be my course—(cheers) —and such has never been my course. In spite of the plausible statement that has been made, I deny that I ever took that course ; and I hope and believe that I have not yet done anything which is in the least degree derogatory to that chara ter which the humblest of us may always endeavour to maintain—the character of an English gentleman. (Loud cheers.) Major BERESFORD said he had listened with serious attention to the charge and the explanation that had been given. He had come there, not to make a long oration, but to state distinctly what he knew, and to stand on what he had done. There were two wholly distinct parts in Mr. Keogh's speech • first, as to any offer, or hinted offer, of office made to him by Lord Naas, and authorised by him (Major Beresford) ; and secondly, a private conversation which Mr. Keogh maintained to have been held between _65 . 17 N. them —evidently, by his own account, fin a secret and con fidential way, and which had been now brought forth, as was the custom of that house and. these times, to be a con demnatory matter against himself, and v. matter of reproach against his noble friend. (He r, hear.) WitlEst; treating the words in a jesuitical sense, as to whether they amounted to an offer of office or not, he distinctly stated, in the presence of the house and, the coiratry, that no one whatsover authorised him to offer or hint at an offer of office to the honourable and learned gentleman ; and had he not been authorised, he could not authorise his noble friend to make such an offer. But there were circumstances which proved the impossibility of this, awnidthtohuetresefa. searching rchhiatnteg rafofrronicorrdoiffbeorez-antitong,entolremseenn.din Lord Naas (Hear.) e h a e r r . o ) and lie had a conversation in St. James's square, on the morninc, of the 26th F e b ruary i n l ast year. Had he then authorised Lord Naas to offer place or hint at place to Mr. Keogh, was it within the verge of possibility that from that day to l as t M onday Lord NaasshoUklnever have mentioned to him the conversation he had with Mr. Keogh, or given him the slightest idea of - what had oc curred? (Hear, hear.) The plainest understanding, the most unsophisticated reasoner, could see how improbable it was that a person said to be in daily communication with the Prime Minister, should have sent an offer of place ,to a gentleman, and have never once asked for an answer. (Hear, hear.) Reason and common sense told them that was impossible. As to his being in daily communication with Lord Derby more than any other prominent member of the Government, that was not his custom. When he did anything he took the responsibility of it. (Cheers and laughter.) He did not authorise others to do a thing ; he did not bring them in. He did not communicate private conversations which occurred under his roof—and if hon. gentlemen, who were so ready to sneer, would have the same respect as ho had for confidential communications— (laughter)- they should not so frequently have friendly words spoken in confidence and in au unguarded moment, retailed again in public. It was perfectly true that on Wednesday morning, the 26th February, he met by acci dent with Lord Naas in St. James's-square. Lord Naas informed him that he was likely to receive the honour of an early call from Mr. Keogh. He said it was most likely, as office had not been offered. to him, and as he and his friends had assisted in turning out the late Government, that they would be discontented. He (Mr. Boresford) said "It cannot be helped, but tell them there is a friendly feeling towards them—(laughter)—and I will thank you to be kind enough to convey that to Mr. Keogh" He wished not to offer him place ; but ho wished to say—" If we have been foes, don't let that continue." (Laughter.) It happened that Lord Nass did not communicate this mes sage; he certainly never gave him (the Major) any account of it. Circumstances occurred which made it impossible for him to see Lord Nass for a few days ; his lordship then went to Ireland to his election and after that, so long an interval having elapsed, he did not think it necessary to ask if he had delivered the message, thinking it probable he had done so. He now came to the second part of the charge ; but he protested against any charge being made against himself or his noble friend, which was founded on a private or confidential message. Towards the end of May, Mr. Keogh had made a violent attack in that house on Mr. Disraeli. Happening to meet Mr. Keogh after -wards, ho had told him that he was astonished at the violence of that attack, said he did not expect it from him and asked " Did you not receive from Lord Naas a kindly and confidential communication from myself?" (Great laughter.) Upon this Mr. Keogh had flown off, and informed somebody else that he (Major Beresford) had authorised Lord Naas to offer him office. As to an offer of office from Lord Derby and his Govern ment, it was only in the brilliant imagination of the hon. and learned gentleman himself. If he meant to say that the office of Solicitor-General for Ireland was offered to him, the wish was father to the thought. (No, no, and great laughter.) He entirely repudiated any such offer being made ' • and before sitting down, he would again de precate that spirit which seemed to animate men to make public matter of that which was private and confidential and which must destroy the confidence which gentlemen used to feel and ought to feel in one another. This pros titution of private documents and confidential words de tracted from the honour and dignity of that house, deterio rated the fame and character of public seen, was inimical to all feelings of honour and friendship, and tended to re duce members of Parliament, like convicts, to the solitary system. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No man dared speak to his neighbur, or write a confidential letter, not know ing what use might be made of it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Keogh had complained of the question being prejudged by the statements in the House of Lords. But between the time of those two statements, a lengthy and untrue state ment of the whole occurrence was published in the Morning Chronicle of last Monday, containing the statement now made, and the evidences that had been given. He consi dered that that was pre judging the question, and a secret way of doing it. (Hear, hear.) itEr. NAPIER said it had been remarked as a singular circumstance that Lord Derby should have stated that he had heard of the rumour. He would explain how that happened. Two gentlemen had applied to him to know if Lord Derby had offered office to Mr. Keogh, and he had given the statement an unqualified contradiction. At one gentleman's request he had written to Lord Derby about it, and his answer was as follows : " Knowsley, Feb. 3. " His lordship, in reference to the inquiry, whether at the time of the formation of the late Government an offer of office was made to Mr. Keogh, says that neither then nor at any other time was any such oftbr made by my authority or with my knowledge.' He then states that he had enclosed my note to Mr. Disraeli, and had that morning received his answer. He adds these words : It is as full and satisfactory as it was possible to be, and I enclose it to you for your satisfaction. You may therefore, I think, state without fear of contradic tion that the assertion is destitute of any foundation, and that no offer nor overture of any kind was made to Mr. Keogh by or on the part of the late Government."' It was in this way that Lord Derby had heard of the rumour. He (Mr. Napier) never mentioned the subject to the Earl of Eglinton. Mr I. BUTT wished the house fully to understand the position which he occupied in this matter. He had an in terview with Lord Naas one night about his election ; and when he called, Mr. Kecgh was engaged in conversation with him. He thought nothing there of it till the other evening, when Mr. Keogh met him in the lobby, and stated that it was important to him to have his (Mr. Butt's) evidence that he had been with the noble lord that evening. He promised Mr. Keogh that he should have it. Mr. Keogh then said, "Do you recollect that you were kept waiting ?" lie certainly was kept waiting ; but he was not an accurate judge of minutes. He took the first op portunity of informing Lord Naas of what had passed. That was the entire amount of what he said. Mr. DISRAELI—There is no motion before the house ; but as my name has been frequently introduced into this discussion, perhaps it will not be deemed intrusive if I offer a few observations to the house on this subject. I think the real question before us has reference to the veracity of two honourable members of this house. Ido not suppose that any gentleman would really get up and maintain that there were any circumstances that ought to have influenced the late Administration not to offer office to the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Keogh) if they wished. (Hear.) I beg the house to recollect the circumstances under which the honourable and learned gentleman was placed in re gard to the great body of gentlemen who were sitting at this side of the house at the time when the Government of the noble lord (Russell) broke up. The hon. and learned gentleman I think was first returned to Parliament in 1847, and he was returned as the only Roman Catholic who enter tained Conservative principles ; and, of course, that alone was a combination which gave him a position when he entered the house—a position which he immediately sustained by his own great abilities. The hon. and learned gentle man took his seat among the Conservative ranks, and he became a member, like most gentlemen who profess Con servative principles, of the Carlton Club. I am willing to state that he upheld the policy of Sir R Peel, but at the same time that he sat by us there were many questions on which he acted with us ; he was in communication with my late lamented friend, Lord George Bentinck, who had a high opinion of his abilities, and at the very moment when the Government of the noble lord opposite (Lord J Russell) broke up, he was in personal communication with my noble friend (Lord Naas) as to the management of what might be called a pity question. The Government, within 24 hours of that debate, ceased, and I can conceive no reason —on the contrary, I can conceive many reasons-- why office should have been offered to the hon. and learned gentleman. Though he entered Parliament as a Conservative, he had acted with us on many occasions ; he had been occupied on a motion which had been brought forward with the view to injure the then Government at the very moment when it ceased to exist, and he was a gentleman of recognised abilities and power. I say, then, there was no reason why office should not have been offered to the hon. and learned gentleman, and, so far as I am concerned, I should not have been astonished or displeased if office had been offered and accepted. Therefore the question is, whether the statement of my noble friend or that of the hon. and learned gontle man on this matter is the true one. The house will recol lect that my noble friend has no interest whatever in mak ing any statement which is not perfectly true, because it would be nothing improper, nothing which was not strictly warrantable, if my noble friend had b een au th or i se d t o make the offer of office, and if he had been pressed by Lord Derby to do so. I was very imperfectly acquainted with the details of this question before I entered the house to night. I have listened attentively to the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman, and I have brought to it an impartial consideration, for I have always very much ap preciated the abilities of the hon. and learned gentleman the member for Athlone ; and, so far as I am acquainted with the details, my sincere though individual impression is, that the statements of my noble friend and the hon. and learned gentleman are perfectly reconcileable with the facts. (Hear, hear.) My noble friend is on terms of ex treme intimacy with my right honourable friend the mem ber for North Essex. He is in the habit of receiving his visits and communications. My noble friend is at that mo ment in communication with the hon. and learned gentle man on a subject of the greatest interest and importance to My noble friend, namely, the chance of his being able to preserve his seat for the county of Kildare, and upon that subject the hon. and learned gentleman was a very good judge. The very fact of my noble friend having appeal d to the hon. and learned gentleman on such a subject, and the hon. and learned gentleman immediately responding to that appeal, proves the terms on which they were. The interview that had been referred to took place on a day when the Administration had been really formed ; I believe on that day, three days had passed since the appointment of Attorney and Solicitor-General for Ireland had taken place ; the new Administration was complete ; and the only appointment which had not then formally taken place was that of the office which was eventually accepted by my noble friend (Lord Naas). And then my noble friend, not having the slightest authority to make any offer to the hon. and learned gentleman, because irrespective of any other circumstance, there was no place which could be offered to the hon. and learned gentleman—my noble friend, I say, was extremely anxious—and naturally, look ing to the prospects of the new Government—to ascertain what might be the probable course of the hon. and learned gentleman, and of those with whom he acted in public life, in the new Parliament, and in reference to the new Go vernment. Well, I ask the house, what was there more natural than this—relations of intimacy existing between those two gentlemen at the time - -the new Government having been formed, and therefore there being no possi bility of any immediate understanding on that head—what was there more natural than that my noble friend, espe cially as he had recently had a conversation with my right hon. friend (Mr. Beresford), should have sounded the hon. and learned gentleman whether there was a prospect or not of himself and his friends going into considerable op sition against the new Government? Th a t I take to be the fair state of the case as regards my noble friend. Well, take the position of the hon. and learned gentleman. He finds himself in confidential communication with one with whom he was intimate 4 and who was now a Minister of 4 : ..."4:...:iziii.2):---ti; '''''.,. - - .., ....---- • \C - , e,:; ; • ..„,i,.. of the Crown ;he is eone ee e• upetehje erepsehlte intere,t ; he is absolut e ly' • fee • . 'teyfeicialeatiend ; and my noble friend is encleavemsze Ces • - eseert..4ihewliat may be tho future conduct of theTletieeliWOltie arelefeerned gen tleman and his friends, speaking to him in this wise - " Now, what would you have done if office had been offered you by Lord Derby ?" I say it is not at all re asarkabie that the hon. and learned gentleman should have put an interpretation on that conversation which it was not intended to bear by my noble friend. I really think that my noble friend and the right lion linable gentleman, f oar the same tte.te of facts, have arrived at oppesito .n -ferences. As far as I can collect, I think that is a true and sound view of the case. I wish now for one moment to refer to an appeal made to the honourable and learned gentleman which seems to have created some misapprehen sion in the mind of nay right honourable friend the mem ber for North Essex (Mr. Beresford). It seems the hon. and learned gentleman bad indulged in a vein of great in vective against myself on one occasion. (A laugh.) I appreciate and admire the talents of the honourable and learned gentleman ; but so much has happened since that time that I do not exactly recollect the particular invec tive to which reference has been made. lam convinced, however, that the invective oven of the hon. and learned gentleman, however continuous and sustained, would never have infinenced me, directly or indirectly, not to send him a message of the kind which seems to have been for warded to him. I always think that invective is a great ornament of debate—(laughter and cheer)—and I really hardly know bow we could endure attendance in this house, if our dis cussions were not sometimes varied, and rendered more buoyant, by that arm of eloquence. (Hear, hear.) I can assure the house that, although I had innocently for gotten the invectives of the honourable and learned gen tleman, which seems so much to have alarmed my right hon. friend (Mr. Beresford) at that time, and which have been of great service in leading to these misapprehensions, I am confident I always listen to them with approbation, and, on the whole, with pleasure. (Laughter.) I trust the house will take the right view of this case. There is nothing in this case which at all affects political principles of any kind ; we are not to find fault with an individual because he has accepted office under a paetr whom he had pre vious opposed. Every one will admit. that the Earl of Derby was perfectly entitled to offer office to the hon. and learned gentlemen, and that it co atis equally competent to the hon. and learned gentleman to accept it. This is a dis cussion limited—and limited only and strictly —t o the opinion which the House of Commons may have as to the veresity of two of its most distinguished and respected members. I confer that, having listened with the greatest attention to the statements both of the hon. and learned gentleman and the noble lord, I do find them reconcilable with the different conclusions to which they have arrived— (hear)—and I warn the house, under the circumstances, not to visit every expression on either side with that keen scrutiny which we only apply to official documents and public conduct, and that we shall render the intercourse) between man and man and between gentleman and gentle man more difficult every day if we take always the most uncharitable construction, and avail ourselves with so much eagerness of every word and circumstance in the in tercourse of daily life. (Hear, hear.) I think that both tke noble lord and the hon. and learned gentleman were gentlemanlike feelings ; and w ith influencedrespect te the conduct lindand ofthe hon. and learned gentleman since that time. I must decline to pronounce any opinion until the facts are fairly before us ; and shall consider that so far as the present discussion is concerned, he has done e n ffi o t e h e i r n g of but the vb c .h r e a t w has b (c e c h o e m e r s e . h ) i ril l n s a e g f e n tle m a and opinion an n that, far as the question before us this evening is concerned, the honour of both the noble lord and of the hon. and learned gentleman is clear and unimpeachable, and I shall be glad to find that that is the general opinion of the house. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, I trust the house will not lose sight of what I think arc the material results of this discussion. The right hon. gentleman and the noble lord opposite have complained that private communications have been disclosed, and private letters read ; but be it re membered that the whole of this discussion has arisen from a personal at tack made upon an hon. and learned gentleman holding the high •ffice of Solicitor-General for Ireland— an office than which there is hardly one which requires more the confidence of the public at large in order to carry on its functions with advantage—by a person of no less station and dignity than one who was lately the Lord- Lieutenant of Ireland under the Government of the Earl of Derby. (Ministerial cheers.) That nobleman stated that the 'appointment of the hon. and learned gentleman was the least reputable of any made by the present Govern ment. With respect to this point, let the house observe what has been the result of the present discussion. The noble lord opposite says that when the late Government was formed he was in friendly communication with the hon. and learned member, for the purpose of ascertaining what were his feelings with respect to the Government then about to be formed. A right hon. gentleman holding the office of Secretary at War, and who was in immediate communication with the members of the Cabinet, au thorised the noble lord to state that the feelings of the then Government towards the hon. and learned gentleman and his friends would be of a friendly description. The right honourable member for Bucks has said that the talents and abilities of the present Solicitor-General for Ireland, and the course which he had pursued in political life, would have led him to think it quite natural that an offer of office shceild be made to him, and that he, at least, would not have been surprised, nor would he have disap. proved of such an offer had it been made. (Cheers.) This, then, is the result of the discussion!; and it is one which the honourable and learned gentleman may, in the first instance, be proud of obtaining from the discussion of a question involving imputations made upon his character by one who had held so high an office as that of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. That accusation is now swept away. It is gone, and gone for ever. (Cheers.) With respect to the point under discussion, I can hardly say that there is a doubt as to the veracity of two members of this house. Recollections, no doubt, may be imp. er fect; but the statement which the noble lord has made confirms that of the honourable and learned member for Athlone. There are state ments of different words and of different expressions, and the noble lord, understanding, perhaps, more fully does not attach the same sense to the words as has been done by the hon. and learned gentleman. But even supposing the noble lord's own account to be precisely accurate, and his memory unfailing, I would defy any man, with a Go vernment in the act of formation, to have such a commu nication nettle to him and not have believed that the ques tion was whether, if he was willing to accept office, some office was not likely to be offered to him. What are the circumstances under which the communication was made ? The Earl of Derby received a commission from her Ma jesty on a Saturday evening to form a Government, and wo are told that upon a Thursday evening following all the appointments were made. I very much doubt if that is the fact, but even if it were so, still the public and honourable members of this house would not have been fully aware of it ; and it constantly occurred in such casea that some of the arrangements proposed did not take place, and some persons wh o wou ld have proposed to accept certain offices had declined, thereby creating vacan cies of which the public cannot be immediately aware. The impression which the honourable and learned gentle man might fairly have obtained from the communication made under these circumstances may have been confirmed when, as the noble lord himself says, he was asked if he had any authority for making that statement, and replied, " Yes ;" and that th e h onoura bl e and gallant member for Essex, known to be intimate with all the concerns of the party, was his authority for the question he had put. If that is the case I do not think there is any difference, which can be said to be a difference, affecting the vera city of the parties, particularly as regarding a conversation which it appears was of some 20 minutes' duration, and which occurred some months since. But there is another circumstance which, in the words of the noble earl the late Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, are, I think, " not respect able" to the noble lord opposit e . I think when the case being such as he himself admits, when the noble lord re ceived from the Solicitor-General of Ireland a letter asking if he had not one day been asked if an offer of office were made to him he would be disposed to accept it, or any similar proposal, I think the noble lord should have said, that " when so and so occurred, the question I asked you was of this nature, it might have given you the im pression—l cannot think it could have done so—but, it may have, produced the impression that I meant to offer you some office. That was not my meaning, but you were fully justified in supposing that was the case." I think in fairness the noble lord should have acted in this manner. (Cheers.) I cannot conceive any man receiving such a let ter, having had such a communication, and answering it by saying, "I have to declare that neither directly nor in directly, was any offer of office made to you." 'Yet that statement was conveyed by a message to a noble lord iu the other house, and brought forward there in the most direct and positive manner. Such a want of fairness, candour, and of honourable eonsieleration for the feelings and cha racter of a person with whom the noble lord had been upon terms of friendship, it has seldom been my lot to witness. (Loud cheers.) All this, be it observed, too, from a noble lord who, though he has said he was not much used to making speeches in that house, yet is one who is particu larly nice with respect to public conduct., and who, not very long since, constituted himself a public accuser, and should therefore be remarkably careful in the conduct which he pursues towards those to whom he happens to be particularly opposed. (Loud cheers.) Ido not think that as the result of this discussion, there is any reason to doubt the veracity of either the hon. and learned gentleman the Solicitor-General, or of the noble lord opposite, but I think, by his own showing and that of the right hon. gentleman opposite, that there was every reason for the hon. the and Earl learn of ed Dgeenrbtlyeinwaonuhtiohsangbo e se en thatthe Government willing to offerto him ; but whether it were so or not, there is no reason to doubt the veracity of either of the honourable members of this house. (Cheers.) But there is no reason to regret that it should be necessary to state private communi cation and read private letters in order to meet office ffico of the rash and reckless accusations which have been brought that the late against the hon. and learned gentleman, and hon. and learned gentleman, to make an unfounded attack upon his character. (Cheer s .) h th w e h n ie o h bl t e h l e or e c i l re in um h s i t s a ad ne d e r ee b s y a Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland should have taken t oppor tunity, in the absence of the no means justified. assumed PAlel s toneN GTeOf (Hear.) And the speech o f th e noble lord was more open to remark and comment f rom (mßoer e ar. e l ons A is li te y nt with spe t e h eh e ma rked difference in tone between his speech. and that of ha S d irj.N triu sa m iA p l i on. i. hi snore r rl a gj c hl td t il l h e tsfhr friend r o e f ( ° h i" ? . s n r ias g t °r a h rteylorhon,) indinthe harshness cipeech of th e no bl e l or d. :and cen sure i n heard, nor did ho ever hear a tone of t r i umph which was (Hear.) The speech of his nobl e ; friend contained nothing less justifiable, or a tone of sarea, sin which was less called tofor, justify th n t t h h a e t t c e o r n m t as of e which the noble lor his of him. His ogle friend told a plain tale, andone and manner win.° so consistent with the facts of the case that they t MAU have carried conviction to the mind of every member in the house. (Hear.) He ad mitted that there was nothing irreconciliable in the state ments of the noble lord and the iehen, and learned gentle man. His noble friend admitted that he asked the hon. and learned gentleman whether such an office had been offered to the hon. and learned gentleman he would accept of it —that office being at We time filled up. (Hear, hear.) That was an important fact , to remember. He spoke from memory, but his impression was that all the offices of the Government were filled at I%he time, and he believed that the Irish law offices wore aatually filled. There were two issues contained in the disciession which was raised that night, ono referring to the c onversatiou which had taken place, and the other relatil:e to the appointment of the hon. and learned gentlemar which had been described in another place as the least rr putablo appointment made by the present Government. The) immediate answer to that w that the same offer had been made by the late Government. His reply to this was that th.s circumstances were different, even supposing teat an offer had been made to the hon. and learned gentleman by tita late Government. The hon. imaitffi . `. / - ;eld !~ ,S 0 ' 5 4 $ll. 64 3'l' rio°!; 1,0,` 10 5 I") 5' 3 4 4 , I Q 4 0 •.' 0 •.' 0 .•• , le tt l DO td'' rA Letas, .4 0 : or oio te; qr. i