The Sun. — London, England, 1801-04-21 00:00:00

.1144 7 'Efil4L PARLMMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, LIONLAV, APRIL 20. The several Rills before the House were forward ed in their tespeaive stages, The Innkeepers' Rates Bill, together with several Private Bills, were brought up trom the Commons and respeaively read a first time. Some private business was then disposed of, and the House adjourned till to-morrow, MUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, 20. Sir JOHN ANDERSQN presented the Report of a Committee appointed to consider the subjed, and moved on it for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Corporation of London to insure Baigesemploy ed in inland NaNiigatior, in the same manner as Ships at sea, Leave granted. Duckworth's Divorce Bill was reada second time, committed for tomorrow sennight, and lcavc was given to Mr. Duckworth to be then heard by Coun 7 sea in support of the Bill. • Mr. N t cyo Lt,s presented a r etition its /favour of ,the Croydon Canal Bill. A Bill was brought in to explain and amend two Alts for enlorsing the harbour of Scarhornugh in Yorkshire, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time. Sir WiLLIAM SCOTT rose to give Notice of his intention to move for leave io bring in a sill for the better rtgalation of Vice Admiralty Courts in the West Indies, and other Foreign Possessions. He expressed his opinion, that this species of Juris_ diction ought to be founded on the clearest princi ples, and exercised with the s"tric"test impartiality, Justice, and regard to the rights and privileges of other Countries, From the situation, however, in . . which he was placed, he had had opportunities of observing that .erroneous decisions have been made in some instances. The Hon. Baronet was proceed_ ing to state the cases in which these errors had ori ginated, when The SPEAKER interrupted him by observing, that if he only meant to give Notice and not to make any Motion, he would he out of order in proceeding. . Sir WILLIAM SCOTT then repeated his Notice. • A Message from the Lords intimated, that they had agreed to the Bill imposing an additional Duty on English Spirits carried into Scotland. Mr. DICKINSON, after making a few observa tions on the hardships to which. many Clergymen have been subjefted by common Informers taking advantage of . a Clause in' the At; of Elizabeth, to enforce the residence of the Clergy, gave Notice of his, intention to move for leave to bring in a Rill to repeal for a limited time, (two years, or perhaps, only to the end of the next Session of Parliament), by which time new and proper .regulations may be devised and enacted,, some& of that Aa as gives to' the informer the half of the penalty Fixed by it on ConviEtion. The House resolved itself into a Committee, to consideftheproprietx of prohibiting the .Export,A tion from, and pernutting the importation into, Ire, land, of Corn, Potatoci, &c. The Report was ordered to be received to-mor row. The Bill for permitting the dire 4 Importation into Ireland of Rice from the East Indies, was read a second time and committed for to-morrow. The Bill for granting Bounties on the Importa. tion into Ireland, of Wheat, Flour, Pats, Rye, ike. was read a third time and passed. The, British tottery, Bill was read a third time and passed, The Custom Duty Bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. VANSITTART moved the appointment orit. Committee to prepare an Estimate of the Ex price dunking provision for the "subsistence of a certain class of Militia Officers in time of Peace. The Motion was agreed to, and Mr. VANsiT SITTART, ,the SECRETARY at WAR, Mr. RYDER, and Colonel LONGFIELD, appointed to compose the Committee. Mr. VANSITTART presented an Account of the amount of the produce of the Income Tax, with an Account of the Charges on collening the same for the years 1799, and !Soo, which war ordered to be Tinted for the use of the Members, Mr. WHITBREAD presented the Report of the Committee appointed to consider the propriety of exempting persons in Holy Orders from the 'l'ax on posed OW Horses, by the AEI of the 38th of the Xing. The Report was read and agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in pursuant to it. Mr. W H ITBRE A D the CHACELLOR of the EXCITE quER, Mr. i N A. TaYLog, and Mr, B R A G CE, were appointed to prepare and bring in the, same. ' Mr. ;ONES said, in consequence of his having read a violent Manife!lo of the KING of PR k iss ; in which he in h ;mates an intention of invading Ha nover, he, thought it his duty as a 'Member of Par liament, to take the earliest opportunity given him by the presence of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex. CHEQUER, to inquire if Government have received finy information whether that Country is at present in the possession of the Torso Of PR UsSIA ur of the j.." /NG Of ENGLAND ? . The CHANCELLOR r?,f . ibe EXCHEQUER said, lw did suit understand. t question. Mr. YONES repoted 111; question, and asserted 'fie had a right to put it, The .Sediticus Niecting Bill was rend a third time. The question be i ng then put that the Bill do Tile CH ANC ELLO R e?ftlie EXCHEQUER said, Le burl .s'ouid t•x.s•used, thuinTh it was rater ont of order, to o dliert to what had Olen from any Gentleman on a fornirr night, in niaking a few ob servations on what hmi [alien from to lion, Gentle. man oppoite (Mr TIFTUI.:II, on a former Night, when speaking of this Bill. That Hon. Gentleman then asserted, thilt . no one instancc could be pro.,;need of the House having adopted any' 'tixasure .like the present, aficaing the fbrrty of the sa4ea, on ;;Q alight grounds as mutely .the general report of a Comnittee of Secrecy. He had at the titx re plied, that though there were no instance exaaly analogous to the present, yet there was nothing in the proceeding inconsistent with the regular course and order of proceeding generally pursued by the Hotise. He had besides instanced two cases in which Bills had been passed for continuing the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus,. without any inquiry what soever, or any Message from the Crown containing any statement of their necessity, The Hon. Gen_ tleman, however, then chose to make a distinCtion between reviving and continuing an Act, the force of which, as applied to the argument, he confessed he could not perceive. But as he was anxious for preserving stria regularity in the order of proceedings, he thought it his duty to consult the Journals for a precedent, which would obviate completely the Hon. Gentleman's ()Nation, and he had found, that no longer since than the year 1798, the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill was revived, not continued without any inquiry whatever being made by the House into the grounds on which it was eevived. If he recolleCied right, the Bill was first passed by the Lords, and sent by them to this House, and he believed that that was the only occasion on which the Hon. Gentleman voted for the Suspension of the Aft. He had men tioned this case, in order to satisfy the House, but without it, he would have contended that this pro. ceeding was perfeEtly regular, and on this ground would have defended it. Mr. TIERNEY said, that the case which the Right Hon. Gentleman had mentioned, did not at all affe& his assertion respelling the unprecedented ness of the present proceeding ; for if the Right Hon. Gentleman will consult the Journals, he will find, that on the same day on which the Bill for reviving the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus was sent down from the Lords, a Message from the KING was delivered to the House, which stated, that he had received information of a design being formed by the Enemy to invade this kingdom, and to aCt in concert with certain disaffeeted persons within it. Here a pledge of responsibility on the part of the Ministers of the Crown was given to the House, and on that pledge lie voted f'qr the Bill.— He maintained that, in the present instance, the pro.. cecding sv,as neither sandioned by evidence, nor by responsibility ; that the House was aCting on the bare assertion of twenty-one Gentlemen selede,d by the Ministers of the Crown, without having any pledge of responsibility on the part of these Mini sters: Mr. Tt E NM' then defended the distindion which he had made between reviving and continuing an Aft, and concluded with asserting, that if evi dence it can be called at all, the only evidence now before the House is six years old, the evidence con tained in the Report of the Secret Committee in 795, to which the House is referred in the Report of the present Committee of Secrecy. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER allowed that the case which he had referred to, was 'as the Hon. Gentleman had stated, and that a Mes sage was delivered to the House from the KING, stating grounds which rendered the revival of the Smpepsinn of the Habeas Corpus at that time neces sary. fie had thought, that when he adduced that case in answer to the lion. Gentleman's arguments, that when lie said that there was no precedent of any measure sunilar to the present, having been adopte3 without a Message from the Crown, or evi dence having b.een Lid before the Host, he meant without a IVlessage t as preliminary to inquiry being instituted by the House. It seems, however, that he means without either evidence being produced to the House, or such a Message being sent to it from the Crown as may render Ministers rte.sponsible for the measures recommended. Futr !pis own part, he could see no difference, as to the responsibility or Ministers, between their advising the Cromi to send such a Message as the Gt:ntteman seems to wish for, and their advi,ing the Crown to lay Pa pers before the House, upon wh,eit it may itself ground such measures, as if the Message had been sent, that Message might have recommended. I n his opinion, Ministers would be as responsible for laying false documents before the House as for ad.. rising the Crown to send a Message containing 'a false statement of fads. Afr. TIERNEY still contended, that this pro ceeding is wholly unprecedented, and farther, that no reason whatever has been adduced for passing the Bill, because it has not been shewn how it can be a remedy for the evil coinplained of. The Report of the Committee states the evil to ba, that Seditious Meetings are to be apprehended for the purpose of producing a great .explosion throughout the Coun try on one day. But how can this Bill prevent these Meetings being held I. Under this Bill, Meet ings may be held to petition for Peace, or for the removal of His Majesty's Ministers, or for other still better purposes. May not" Miptings be eon_ vened for these purposes, or such al these ostensi bly, and may not their attention be afterwards di redcd to the object stated by the Committee, pro. ducing an explosion in the Country ? He contended, that this may be done even under this Bill, and that therefore it was nugatory, as- effeeling it, pre_ tended object, as it was unprecedented in the. man ner in which it was brought forward. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER corrected two errors in point of fact, into which Mr. TIERNEY had fallep. Mr. PlT7' rose merely to advert to two or three things which ha fallen from the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ERNEI ). Fie said, that this measure is no remedy for the evil which it is intended to cure, be. cause the manner in which it can operate has not been shewn. The nature of 114 argument is ex. tremely singular---at one time he asserts that the measure is an infringement us liberty, as being de- Jrudive of the right of petitioning, and, at ano ther, he asserts that it is nugatory, because it leaves entire the right of assembling fur the purpose of petitioning, er any other purpose whatsoever, ex cept to concert alteration 3, or deliberate on griev ances in Church or State. He would agree that this measure duel leave entire to the People the right of assembling for any legal purpwe, and every other, as they were enjoyed and exercised before that time when an attempt was made tppervert this right fur the purpose of subverting the Constitu_ tion itself, and destroying all the rights of which it is the parent and the guardian. but, at the 'same time, this measure is not without efficacy, as to its objet.—Tt prevents the calling of any Meetings by secret messengers and verbal messages : it requires that public notice shall be given of all Meetings, of the time and place at which they are to be held, and of the &Tel. for which they are convened. It prevents the possibility of a Meeting called for a legal' purpose, occupying itself with illegal and se ditioes subjeas. it is not therefore nugatory as to the purpose which it is intended to answer. The Honourable Gentleman said that there is no evi dence of the necessity of this measure, except what is six or seven years old, which he contended is now done away. But, is it six or seven years 41;o that proof was laid before the House of the benefits produced by, this measure ? It is only two years ago that a Report was laid before the House of Com mons, both of Great Britain and Ireland, which gave a detailed history of all the plots, combina. tions, and conspiracies which had been formed in both Countries for their ruin and destrufflon, a Re. port which stated that this, with some other mea sures of a similar nature which had been adopted, had been the means of saving the CountrY, and which was the more corret and the more to be depended upon, as it was made on a review of what was ascertained to have been done, or intended, and not merely oh apprehension of what might be done. Besides this, the House has before it the Evidence of a Com mittee appointed by itself in favour of this measure. It has been said, that this measure goes to annihi late the privilege of petitioning. But Gentlemen on the other side of the House ought to recollect, that while this measure was in force, they them. selves made Petitions, presented by different clan. ses of people fur Peace, the wounds even of motions in that House ; and so numerous were the Petitions then presented that they argued, mistakenly indeed, in his opinion, that the general sense of the Country was in favour of Peace. On the whole he contend ed, that Gentlemen on the other side of the House were mistaken, both as to the nature of the Bill and its operation. Mr. SHERIDAN said that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken seemed to have for gotten the Rill entirely ; it was really inefficacious as to the purpose for which it was professed to be necessary ; but most harsh, vexatious and harrassing when considered as an abridgment of the liberty of the subjea.• The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT) had said it was a safe.gvard against the attempts of most desperate persons, who might otherwise meet, avowedly for one purpose, and proceed to one of a very different nature, and endan_ ger the safety of the Public. • It would cert ainly be a very good Bill if that was to be the etrea Of it, but most certainly it would have no such effe6l, because it contained no fresh Provision. [Here he read that part of the Bill which prohibits the hold ing of any Meeting, &c. without due notice being given, and vrequest made by-Householders, Sec.] He then proceeded to argue, that unless in the Advertisement it was stated that the Meeting was intended for the purpose of procuring some altera tion in Church or State, any Meeting might beheld, whatever th e nature of it might be, so that the pre. caution, however necessary, of preventing a general explosion on one day, if any such was intended by any set of men, was not taken- by this Bill, because in this Bill there was no Provision whatever, for preventing any Meeting, except such as had avow . Idly for its objea some alteration either in Church or State. The People might meet at all places, and in any numbers they chose, to petition for Peace ; or they might meet, if they pleaseel, to instruEt their Constituents to vote against granting Supplies ; they might meet for the purpose of petitioning the Throne tv change its Political Servants, or, indeed, for any purpose whatever, except that of expressly altering any thing le Church and State, and there was nothing in this Bill to hinder them from doing so. They might instruA their Representatives either to im. peach the late:Ministers of the Crown, or to dis. miss those who are now following their system. So flint the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he treated the Bill as a measure of precaution against SeditiOus Meetings, either totally misunderstood this Bill, or wholly misrepresented it. -Undoubtedly these Pe titioners, from whom so much mischief was appre hended, if any. such there were, would not be such fools as to advertise their Meeting under such de scription as to be prohibited by the Letter of this Law. Np, they would chuse suchstibjeas for their Meeting, as might be legal, even under this Bill, and then they might agree upon any thing they pleased.—So that this Bill was, in the sense in which its Advocates pressed it, absolutely nugatory. As to, the general principle •of the Rill, that of abridging the Right of the Subjea, that he knew would not be defended by any body, nor was it, in deed, ever attempted upon any ground but that of absolute necessity ; and this he did not conceive himself called upon to argue now—that had been abundantly done already, and, lie believed, that nothing need, if any thing could, be added to what had been already said. He was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman had got the Bill in his hand ; if :he had read it.—" I hope," said he, " the Right Hon. Gen. deman will have the candour to get up and say, that he is wrong, and that I am right, upon the effed which this Bill will have." The Question being put, " That this Bill do pass," Mr. SHERIDAN said, that when the Riglit Hon. Gentleman understood this Bill, he would as sent to what he, (Mr. SHERIDAN) had said of it. Mr. PITT said, he had spoken from recolleaton as to the tcnour of the Bill.—" The Honourable Gentleman," said he, " has not given me so much time as might be requisite to read this Bill through, but quite as much as he himself seems to have taken to understand it, for he talks of the possibility of any sort of Petition being agreed to, after the parties are met, but he leaves out the words or for the purpose or pretext of deliberating, Ste.' [Here Mr. PITT read the whole of the Chime, by which it is provided, that the Business carried on, shall be conformable to the Advertisement, which shall cqnverie any of these Meetings.] Now l he said, he would ask, whether, if there was any Meeting took piace for the purpose either of censuring His Majesty's late Ministers, or dis missing his present Servants, or for petitioning for Peace, old at sudi Meeting it were to be. voted, that the scarcity wholly owing to the present { War, or that the House of Commons ought to with. hold Supplies, whether that would or would not be • a Meeting which came under the head of a test ? Most undoubtedly it would be a pretext with out a mask ; for those who met under that Adver tisement, would, in substance, he availing them- selves of a Privilege to commit a Breach of the Public Peace. In such a care, the Magistrate has power, under.this Bill, to dissolve such a Meeting. " I am sorry," said Mr. PITT, " that the Hen Gentleman has not had sufficient leisure to look at the Mt." Mr. SHERID AIV maintained that the words of the Aa were perfeaty plain ; that they had the meaning which he put upon them, and no other--• which was, that_any Meeting — might be held under this Bill, except such as did not go to the alteration of any thing in Church or State. If any body thought that Bishops were a grievance, then the taking away that part of the Constitution would be an alteration in the Church ; or, if any one thought that the Lords were useless, then the abolishing the House of Lords would be an alteration in the Stare, and such purposes could not be carried into a vote at any Meeting ; but he was confident there was no Provision in this Bill for preventing the other ob jets he had stated, from being carried into effect.--A He really wished rho Right Hon. Gentleman woad agree to postponing this Bill, and CO= another day, when he might be better informed upon it. Mr. Pl7l said he was prepired already to shew the futility of the objections o the Hon. Gen tlemari to this Bill. Did he mean to say, that if a Meet ing were called, for instance, either for censuriv His Majesty's late Ministers, or for dismissing those who are at present in office, that under txeli an avowed object it world be competent to such a Meeting to \rote that no more Supplies should be granted ?—Would that, or would it not, come under the head ofalteration either in Church or State? Most unquestionably Waded upon, it would endanger the safety of the Public, which was the bulwark of the State. This,he mentioned as a direct answer, inde pendent of the other he hid stated to the objections of the Hon. Gentleman to this Bill, namely, that wherever the Meeting was held as a pretext for som ething different from thit for which it was avowedly convened, the Magntrate had authority to dissolve it. Mr. GREY supported the observations of Mr, SHERIDAN, and contended that they had been, in substance, admitted by the SOLICITOR GENERAL, whose abilities he admired when the question was argued on a former night, and that Learned Gen.. tleman gave this interpretation of the Bill to,shew the mildness of it. Mr. Garr, however, regarded the Bill now, as he had always regarded it, a dis, grace to the Constitution of England, and a shame. ful encroachment on tke Liberties of the People.... A measure for which there was no apology offered, and'for which hardly any apology could bereceived. The Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHAtteattois of the EXCHEQUER) had found a precedent for tl4 s measure ;—a precedent he might have in the pro. gress of the present War, for almost any thing dig was unconstitutional, and that was only giving to the Public fresh cause for indignation, for it was quoting one unconstitutional measure to WNW: another.--. 6. preCeicnt in th. ... Liu , of the ptesell.: War they might quote for almost any thing that was hostile to Liberty ; but in the good old dines of the Constitution of Engl an d, when Liberty. flourished, and while its principles were cherished, precedent for such a measure as this there was none, True, indeed, the Habeas Corpus' Ad had beta co suspended, but it never was SQ., except in case of actual Rebellion, or something equal in danger to• the things, oul d actual Rebellion. He stated these things, not by way of argument, but rather by way of protestation against t hi s for in present condition o f fr ile cr to w th ia e w p a r r e n aware of resfmtehaesuineirll7 of what he Crentlensen oft the other side of the House. He could not . however, leave this subject without taking son. notice of the , materials of which the Report of the Committee in Mg was founded. He sMI the Report of the Committee in 1795, because ski Report of the Committee which immediately pre, ceded this, was a mere echo of the former. R ete he read, i and as he went on, ridiculed that pa rt o f the Report of r79s, which rela t e s to the nstrue, tions found in the 'possession of General Hurnb et a t , in Ireland. Mr. GREY co ncluded with prote st i nti el of the People of England, and anomalous to the against this Bill as a measure hostile to the Lila true principles of their good old Constitution. The Question being put, " That this Bill do pass," the House divided.—Ayes iss—Noes 3s. When we were re-admitted into the Gallery, Mr. WILBERFORCE was stating, that he had on Friday last, given notice that he should propose , to refer the Fourth Report of the Committee on the High Price of Provisions, to the Committee of Sup. ply, but since then he had understood, that this could not be done consistently with the Foula of the House, therefore, he should not make a Propo sition to that efred. He would not now enter Into a de tail of the measures which, in his opinion, ouelt to he adopted ; he would merely state, that, in his opinion, a sum of money ought to be advanced to those Parishes which stood most in need of relief, without any idea of re-payment from the Parish ot County. II Arum I t the business ,vir. 4amentcd tha. should have been put off so long. He knew that there were many persons who looked up with the most anxious hope of deriving relief from tLe sures which that House might adopt, and therefore, he hoped, that as little delay as possible might take place. Mr. BURDON disapproved of the idea of grant. ing Money, without its being repaid. Mr. I. 11. ADDINGTON said, he merely rose to vindicate the House of Commons from that ration of delay which had been thrown out by t he Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last but one. The lion. Gentleman and the House must be aware, t h a t this was a question of immense magnitude, appli. cable to new circumstances, and founded upon n ew principles. It was necessary, therefore, to proceed with great caution, lest a door s hould be opened to claims, which could not, with propriety, be arced. td to—and he• was sure, that there was as g rea t a dizposition to attend to, and ralieve the Distresses