The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-14 00:00:00

a l the present, should have been interrupted by a discilssion of the present nature ; but after what the Noble Duke had stated, and more particularly in consequence of the manner it bad been received by the opposite side of the 'louse it was impossible for him to he silent. The fact Is stated by the Noble Duke was perfectly true—the Noble bak e h id addressed a letter to the King for this advice upon Cert a i n political questions and topics. That the Noble bake had stated the proper and constitutional course to pursue,—whether it was or not, he (Earl grey) would not now stop to inquire ; he would leave that to the Noble Duke himself ; but he aunt say that conduct pursued by his Majesty on that occasion was that which would have been adopted by the constitutional sovereign of a country like England. , —(Load and long continued cheers.) His Majesty had immediately transmitted that letter to his Prime Ilinister.—(Cheers.) Now the Noble Duke had said that he had given no copy of it. He (Earl Grey) could say upon the honour of a Peer, that he had given tone. He certainly did communicate it to his colleagues : it was his duty to do so—(Hear, hear)—but he thought he could say for them as he could for himself that it had tot come from them, or from any person connected with the Government. How that letter or any allusion to it had found its way into the public press he knew not. No person was more astonished than himself when he saw it. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to say any thing farther against it ; but he would repeat, that however that letter got into the public press it had not been through the medium of his Majesty's Ministers. With respect to the allusion that had been made, that Ministers had influenced the papers, all he could say was, that he should be sorry to have made such accusations upon such grounds, and still more to have defended them—he would not say in a jesuitical manner—(Cheers)—but in a manner which he could not but think bordered upon it. The idea of a person standing in an ostensible situation in his Majesty's Government ever doing any thing for the purpose of influencing the public press, was preposterous—he treated the insinuation in the manner it deserved.—( Hear. ) The Right Rev. Prelate had stated on a former night that he had read those things, and believed them.—(Hear, hear, and cries of No, no.) The Bishop of EXETER—That they had been be -1 i eved. Earl GREY—WeII, that they had been believed then. —(The noise from the Opposition benches at this mo ment was to such an extent that Earl Grey sat down ; but in consequence of the repeated cries of "Go on, go on," the Noble Earl again rose.).— He un d erstood from the manner of the Right R ev. Prelate, that he believed there was truth in these charges. He begged of their Lordships to mark the charity of all this.—(Tremendous cheering.) His Noble Friend near him (Lord Durham) connected with him by ties of the most dear and sacred ch• ratter, and holding a high situation in the Govern. meta, had been charged as being guilty in secret, and by secrecy of transmitting to newspapers this letter ;—(Hear) and more than that, that he was ready to do the same thin g again at the expense of the total severance of those dear ties by which they were united.—(Hear, hear.) If such a charge, made in such a manner, was called Christian charity, and when it came from a minister of the Gospel, whose duty it was to breathe charity to all men, if the making of such a charge was at all consistent with Christian charity, he (Earl Grey) knew not of what it consisted. He begged their Lordships' pardon for hay entered with such length into the subject; but he felt it a duty to himself, to their Lordships, and to the country to repel insinuations lie could never h ave expected from any Member of their Lordships' House, and least of all from the Right Rev. Personage who sat behind him. Th e Bishop of EXETER never meant to charge the Noble Baron with having communicated the particulars t hat had been a ll u d e d t o , t o th e Ti mes news p a p er . w hat be said was, that some one in the Government must lisse furnished those articles. He had declared in th at House that he did not charge the Noble Baron at, all, and more particularly in what he had stated last night —so far from it that many of his friends around him not know that he had even alluded to him. Several Noble Lords rose together to explain, when, after considerable confusion, The Marquess of LONDONDERRY implored their Lord s hi ps to k eep or d er , especially as it was so strictly l a id d own i n t h e i r ru l es . H complaint whiche would merely l aY a few words on the subject of W asmade by th e N o bl e Lo r d. He had not charged the Noble Lord w ith any un d er h an d working, because the county o f Durham was so favoured by the Bill. What he h a d state d was, that i t b e i ng so much favourediu compar i son with other counties, had the appearance to many of a job. The LORD CHANCELLOR here retired for a short time, and on his return The Earl of CARNARVON said that be was happy to address their Lordships after the speech of the Noble Lord. The debate had gone on, as yet, 1 very regularly, that every Noble Lord had answered the other's speech. The Noble Earl (Harrowby, we believe,) who had spoken early in the debate, b id given a great deal of declamation in favour of the Bill, and throughout had argued against it. He had always, he said, been an enemy to Reform till now, when be said he still retained those opinions, while he wished the Bill to be commited. The Noble Lord blamed sa unreformed Parliament for all the debts, wars, &e. in Which we had been involved, and he now stated that he would not now allow the people to be deluded any longer. He (Lord Carnarvon) remembered the time when if any one had used the words which the Noble Lord had made use of at a public meeting, or even within the walls of Parliament, be would with difficulty have escaped great danger from the people, at least equal to that which the opponents of this measure had recently under gone. If the Noble Lord would look at the expenditure of the French Government in the present day, he would find they w ere not much less if not more extravagant than ever the Government of this country had been ; and he thought that surely, finding that the case, his opinion of a Reforming Government would be changed. As he (Lord Carnarvon) was in great hopes that this Bill never would get into Committee, he would not follow the Noble Lord through the details; but if the Bill should should be forced into Committee, lie would meet the question fairly. He was certainly oppos e d to the principle of the Bill, but he hoped that through that was the case, he could meet the question in Com mittee manfully. They had been reminded of the dan gers which would follow an obstinate resistance to the old practices of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But he would ask, was there not some feeble reminiscences of the leaven of the old Whig club in this Bill ? During the last 30 years, there had been two ric ketty bantlings of Reform brought forward, on which this was based, and was this a plan that would have been brought forward by a temperate and well constituted Government ? He asked whether there was any reasonable chance that in the Committee there would be such reasonable alteration s male as would make it a safe measure ? They hid been told that this was a measure thatt would affect the lower class more than the higher, but he had always understood that it was duty the of a Government to legislate equally f or a ll parties . As to the argument that a man of landed prope rty whilecould the sell that property sail leave thecountry,ths labour to i poor man who had nothing hu subsist on, was obliged to remain, it was the most futile he had ever he !. How it was that a man pos sessed of land, al holding it by different tenures, *Quid dispose of ts when there were no purchasers to be found, he was at a loss to conceive. If a revolution were to take place, it would be found that the un fortunate landowner in leaving his country, must leave his possessions behind him.—(Hear.) He thought there was no case made out to support the preamble of the Bill ; and he contended, that giving such a vast power in the great towns, and almost exclusively to the lower class, would be to make the Bill wholly democratic. By the first Bill of Reform which had been detailed to their Lord. ships, there was to be an addition of fifty-five members to the counties, and forty-thr ee to the manufacturing towns. Re could not agree with the Noble Lord opposite (Grey,) that it was idle to compare the county with the town re presentation, on the ground that they had all a common interest ; but he asked how could that argument be applied by the author of the Bill, when it appeared that by the first Bill, forty-thre members were to be given to towns, and fifty-five to counties. The flex' Proposed to the House, added ten members to the counties, and ten to the great towns, and abolished some of the smaller towns, The Noble Earl on that occasion stated that having added Menibeis to the m anufacturing towns, he had found it necessary to give additional Members to the counties. Their Lordships had therefore coming from ,the Government the doctrine of necessity for - addin g to the landed interest.—(Cheers from the Opp ee i,j ort. when he de c l ared ) Then came t h e present Bill; aea that it was considerably more demo cratic than either of the former Bills, he would apply t h e principles of the Noble Earl himself. It appeared that there were to be added to large towns ten Members ; to s maller towns twelve, and to counti es , to wh i ch it sv,,s n ecessary, according to the Noble Earl's former declara tion, to add Members, he had actually added no hing,—(Hear, bear,) The Noble Earl bad, withot,t stnorse, taken away the boon, the only solitary boon, which he had before given to the country.—(Hear, hear.) If he (Lord Carnarvon) could overlook all the o' jections which he had stated, there was another which it was impossible en overlook. It was an objection entirely to the principle of the Bill, which involved the exist ence of the country, its religious establishment, and even the existence of the Crown itself. He alluded to that great question which grew out of the state of Ire land.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Irish Bill was not now before their Lordships, but they all knew it was in progress. They had only to look at the abstract principles of the present Bill, to see that it was utterly impossible for their Lordships to pass it, end to refuse to grant a simil ir one for Ireland. The principle which should be acted on, should be to give re presentation to all the growing interests of the country, for which their forefathers did not provide, because they were not then in existence. To make room for that representation, they ought to consider closely the reductions which they could make in other places, But the principle on which the present Bill proceeded, was one of a general, calculating theory, on one scale, made applicable to all cases. And it was one that was not applicable to Ireland, because in that country there was no great growing interest, nor any small town now risen up to importance. But at the present moment, when the state of that country was almost approaching to civil war, which he could not designate by a less term than civil combus tion, would any Government who were not approaching. a state of insanity, involve that distracted country in agi tation, on abstract principles of Parliamentary Reform, when they knew there was a party seeking to de stroy the Constitution of the country, and to give up the Church to spoliation ?—(Cheers from the Opposition side of the House.) He asked them whether they wished to introduce a Reform in Ireland that would make the situation of the country more difficult ? He was aware this was not a question which could be properly dis cussed on the present occasion, but he thought it in some measure connected with the principle of the present Bill. They had been already told, in the course of this debate, that his Majesty's Government had received an admoni tion from a most able and influential person, friendly, as he verily believed, to their general policy, but certainly to their Reforming policy, in which he informed them that he could not promise them the gratitude of this country, when it had received the boon. What was the repose he held out to them as likely to follow this Bill ? Did he not say that the giant de mocracy to which it would give birth would seize the Noble Earl, and would shake him over a precipice till he was roused, somewhat unceremoniously, from the slumber into which he had fallen ? If this were to be the fate a reforming Government was to experience at the hands of this its offspring, should not his Majesty's Ministers pause before they gave breath to such a parricide. It would be a marvellous sight to see the Noble Earl in such a giant's grasp, suspended over the abyss now pointed out to him, with the sword of state in his hand, the gorgeous robes of his order dangling in the wind, and all the vested interests and chartered rights and church property, he thought so firmly secured tumbling along with him and every settled institution. He would now ask what was asked a year ago, whether his Majesty's Ministers, at the present time, indulged in the slightest hope of this measure being final. His Noble Friend on the opposite side had stated that he had gone so far in order that he might arrive at a firm resting-place, at a spot where he might make his stand, and say Reform should carried uo further.—(Hear, hear.) Was there now one amongst the Noble Lords op posite who now thought that this was the spot where he could take his stand? If any of them said so he must tell them that there were opinions of Minis ters which reached his ears from various quarters ether than those they heard within the walls of that House. lie would ask them what they would say, if he told them that he had beard a declaration attributed to them, that this measure could not be final, but that it went as far as it was prurient to advance at pre sent ? It could not be a final measure, it was impossible. It was as impossible as that a ball once set in motion should rest at the given spot their caprice might design. But he would ask those who advocated principles of Reform like those contained in this Bill, what they saw so propitious for institution making in the present time, that they should select st as one in which to plant a tree that required forcing in order to make it flourish ?--(Hear, hear, hear.) This was the worst of all times that could have been chosen, and this, perhaps, was nearly the worst of all Bills that could have been introduced. A Noble Lord had quoted Burke, and he had a passage in his hand, which, although spoken upon the subject of economical retrenchment, applied so strongly to what was going on around them, that he also would quote Burke. That eminent writer said " it is my opinion that it is the inte rests of the Government that reformation should not be hasty ; that it is the interest of the people that it should be temperate. It is their interest that it should be tem perate, because a temperate Reform only can be permanent." (Loud cheering.) That was precisely the position for which he contended ; and when Mr. Burke went on to say that room should be left for furthering improve ment, that they should look about them, that they should examine the effect of what had been done, the effect of which would be that they would proceed with con fidence because they would proceed with intelligence ; when he said Mr. Burke went en to state this opinion, he perfectly agreed with him ; and he entreated their Lordship., before they voted for this hasty and intemperate measure, to consider the words if that great statesman, whose sentiments he had quoted. A Noble friend of his bad, the other night, appealed to the example of America. It had riot been much the habits of their Lordships, in discussing constitutional questions, to refer to the example of America ; but if this Bill were to pass, it was wise in his Noble Friend, and in those— and in all those who meant afterwards to govern the country, to accustom themselves to references to America and to American practices, instead of English practices, and to the ancient history of our country. But if his Noble Friend wished them to adopt the example of America with respect to Re form, it would behove them to look further into the institutions of that country. Had they done so they would have seen what the opinion of the farmers of the American Constitution was as to the tendency of popular institutions to change. They provided in their fundamental I aw that no aiteration should take place in the Constitution, or even proposed, without its being thought necessaay by two-thirds of both houses of the Legislature, or that two-thirds of the separate states called a conven tion for the purpose; but even this was not sufficient to carry an alteration of the consti tution, for whatever amendments might be so proposed, they were required to be ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states. Further, so jealous were the framers of this republican law of disfranchise ment, that it was provided ,tbat no state should without its own consent be deprived of its equal suffrage in the se nate. Let th e m compare t hi s caut i on, th i s check upon change with the precipitate and h as ty di sso l ut i on of Parlia ment by his Majesty's Ministers—with its re-assem bling at a time of the year, and for a period which not only deprived gentlemen of the time necessary to attend to their private occupations, hut left the Government itself no leisure to the great and multiplied business of the nation. At the last promulgation, after a long and fatiguing attendance, they parted, certainly with no promise from the Government, but with the expression of a wish to allow the legislature some relaxation. But shortly afterwards he read in one of those papers which were said sometimes to create public opinion, and at others to echo it, which His Majesty's Ministers sometimes worshipped as gods, but which some slanderous persons said they sometimes employed as mercenaries, he saw, he said, in one of those papers that Parliament should and must be immediately assembled, in order that this great question might be brought on. When he had read the paragraph containing this important announcement, although he received private letters containing information of a contrary nature, he made all his arrangements for a journey to town, and three days afterwards the King's proclamation came out to reassemble them together.— They had accordingly again met, and if the Government succeeded, contrary to all expectation, in carrying this Bill into Committee, they were called upon to bring forward their con& e projets —(Hear, hear, hear) their new Constitutions.—(Hear, hear, hear) their substitutes for this Bill in the space of twenty-four house, and even that notice included the Sun day, which by this religious-destroying measure, was to be considered a day of work. Perhaps, however, they might never have occasion to take advantage even of this notice, for certainly the outcry that had been raised about a Rev. Person acting the part of recruiting officer, seemed to show some apprehension on the part of Ministers ; but he would ask, if it were among Reverend Prelates only that recruiting officers were to he found f—.. Had there not been recruiting officers endeavouring to detach from the majority of last October a portion of its numbers? He had lived a little longer in the world that; he wished he had, but he never knew the time when his Majesty's Ministers had found it impossible to !mph) ) , recruiting officers to make Parliamentary proselytes in !nip port of their measure. It had been said by a Noble B iron who had lately spoken, that this measure was called for by the mi!,lling classes, and certainiy : more enlightened, a more numerous, a more opulent, a more loyal middle class did not exist than the middle classes of this country. Ile should not i!iject to a moderate Reform, which gave a greater -Ware of direct representation to those middle classes, hit that would not he accomplished by this Bill. —(Hear ,ear, hear.) They knew by returns upon their table that the largest part of the funded property of this country was in the hands of that class; hut he would have those who so eagerly embraced the revolutionary projects of the Government, look to that p irtion of their property. Few of those orders would be found to live in a 101. house, and although it was true all persons living in houses above that value would also vote, vet there could not be a doubt that the numbers of the 101. voters would be far greater than those living in houses above that value. If there were any line of distinction to be drawn in this rauntry, it could amount to no more than this—those who ived by the interest of their capital or the proceeds of their property, or by their learning, science, or peculiar talents, svhich soon created capital on the one hand, and those who live.] on the daily fruits of their mechanical labour, on the other. It was principally for the protection of the, proprietory classes, the smallest, as well as the greatest; that the theory of representation was designed; and this sill if fairly understood, nor would it be long before that was the case, would be found by its pi ovisiens entirely to swamp the middle classes, He would predict, that as the higher and middle classes had but one common interest, the latter would experience, that in destroying their then supposed rivals, the higher orders, they had obtained nothing but the destruction of their protectors. It was said that they were not to look upon and consider this measure as it would operate next November, or at the next election, but that they were to look to an hereafter, when property would have resumed its ascendancy and the public mind be in a less excited state.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl had stated that in that state of things Members of another description would be elected. What other description he meant, he was at a loss to conceive, if they were not meant to be good Members. He knew that she Noble Earl had once sat for the county of Northumberland, but he had also consented to become Member for one of the small boroughs : did he then cease to be a good Member or was Mr. Fox himself that excellent Member for Westminster, an excellent Member when be sat for a small borough? To what hereafter were they to look ? Was it to that hereafter when England should be separated from Ireland, when the Protestant Establishment and ascendancy would be put an end to, when the House of Brunswick would be considered usurpers, when the Bill of Rights would be abrogated, and when the autumn of the country's decay should have begun to produce its " sear and yellow leaf ?" It was said the presnt system was old and worn out at the elbows; he would he content to patch it, and to wear, he supposed he should call it, the old Saxon garment of the Constitution ; but he would not trust it to this po litical tailor, however he might assure him that lie had possessed himself of the newest French fashions, and, per haps, even the Belgian. But he would not treat this ques • tion lightly. He thought it great happiness to live in a time when the march of intellect was so great, but he could not help observing that the march of folly had advanced pari passa ; nay, so parallel hail been their movements, that it required more discri mination than lie or even his Majesty's Ministers them selves possessed to distinguish the footsteps of the one at times from the traces of the other.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lords who had brought in this Bill had told the House that they had risked their all,—their honour, character, and all that statesmen valued, for Reform. Yes, but what is it, their all only that they risked ? (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Did they not risk all that every one possessed, and that every one valued throughout the British empire, upon this their plan, in order to redeem that pledge which they had given, when the " standing and falling" sickness was upon them ? But he would now allude to what had fallen from the Noble Earl ou the occasion of moving the Second Reading of the Bill, when he alluded to the means in reserve for carrying the Bill, to which he would be driven, not however but as to the last resort of carrying this measure. What means ? Was it a hope to make them the victim, or was it that he would sacrifice that House ? (Hear, hear, bear.) The Noble Earl said 64 driven" to it—but they were not much driven to it surely, when all the Members in that House admitted they were ready to accede to some temporary measure of Reform. They were not sorely " driven" to so extreme a course to carry a measure so peculiarly temperate, that it scarcely, with the exceptions of the two Universities, which they did not much like, left unchanged one stone in the whole fabric of the Constitution. Was it for the purpose of forcing this exclusive Bill that one would destroy for ever the British Constitu tion, that they would be prepared to advise the So vereign to put his hand to an Act to abuse the most important prerogative for the purpose of ren dering that House, by a new creation of Members for carrying this Bill, a mere passive tool of Government? Their Lordships had been told that the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government hod always been a Re former, but he (Lord Carnarvon) had known too that a Noble Viscount on the Treasury Bench had not always been a Reformer. He had known, too, that a great part of his Majesty's Government had been brought up in the school of Anti-Catholic Reform.— (Hear, hear.) He knew that a Noble friend of his had not been a decided Reformer until after much painful consideration he had made up his mind on the subject. He knew that a Noble Lord, also a Member of his Majesty's Government, did, but a short time ago, say of a Noble friend of his, that if he were a Reformer at all, lie certainly was the most moderate Reformer of any. Was it then from such a Government as thet— a Government made up of such new reformers, one of whom had either varied so much in his opinions th it he (Lord C.) almost imagined that when he went into office he (lid not know what a Reformer was—(Cheers and laughter)_was it from such a Government as that, that such a measure as this was to be brought forward and sanctioned ? What confidence could their Lordships have in the temper and policy of such a Government? Unlike the Whig,' of former times, who knew the danger of meddling with the insti tutions of the country, behold the headlong and sweeping proceedings of the Wbiglings of the present time.— (Loud laughter.) What were their Lordships to think of the opinions of the great law officers of the Crown by whom the Ministers had surrounded themselves, and upon whom he supposed they relied for the soundness of their law? Not only had that Noble and Learned Lord talked of creating Peers for the purpose of destroying the Peerage of the country, but in his conduct he had dealt with that House as unceremoniously as he had treated the House of Commons. Under his direction writs had been issued to one place, and they had been refused to another; so that instead of their being two powers to control Government, this Whig merchant had desired, like the Grand Seignior, to have his own slaves—to have the two Houses of Par liament constituted just as he thought proper, that whatever projects entered into his mind he might have the power of carrying forward. It was under such Whiggism as this, that their Lordships were threaten ed with a Batch of Peers—a measure which only once before had sullied the pages of history—an act emanating from as great a man—one as constitutional as any of the present day—Lord Bollingbroke—an act opposed by the Whigs of that day, and for which the Minister was impeached.—(Cheers.) A Noble Friend had thanked the Noble Earl for the reluctance he had shown to become an accomplice of a measure of such a kind. lie would not have ventured to have offered thanks for any absence from crime, because he would have thought it an in sult to have beard such things threatened by the Noble Earl. He might be told, that in opposing this great measure of Reform he was doing that which was contrary to the feel ings of the nation; but if he did not oppose it, he would feel that he would be aiding in .the destruction of the institutions of his country, which he had been taught to love almost from his cradle, and which were the admiration of surrounding nations. And if their Lordships were to dispose by a short hand in the way now proposed of their prejudices how soon afterwards would follow the disposition of their virtues ! It was prejudice that made them love their youth, with all its follies, and the love of their country bound every affectionate heart to the land in which they which they were born, and what was this but prejudice In conclusion, he implored their Lordships not to lay the axe of the spoiler to the tree of the Constitution, but to avert, by the rejection of this Bill, that which would so certainly bring down destruction on all their heads. Lord GODERICH had listened to the Noble Earl who had ju,t sat down with the greatest atten tion. But he must state he had not succeeded in convincing him that the objections to this Bill and its principles, which he hod urged with so much force, were founded on conclusive arguments. In consi dering the course which the present discussion had taken, he thought that one thing was apparent which gave it au air of authority which the former discussion had not. It was now apparent, front the concessions of a II the Noble I.ords that had yet spoken, whether the present Bill was or was not passed, that a most material change in the representation must nev:tably taken places If he wanted for himself a jatsti ic ition of the course he had pursued on this occasion, if *re wanted to vindicate himself from the charge which the Noble Earl appeared so much disposed to throw en th ose iao had, on a former occasion, differed front the opinions which they now expressed, he thought he might appeal for his own justification to those concentrated opinions given from all parts of that House. But there appeared a sort of instinctive horror to reign in the minds of many of their Lordships against the change of that very abuse which was the cause of all the miseries under which the country had laboured, and to get rid of which was the head and front of the offending of Ministers. Their only crime was the attempting to get rid of the nomination horoughs.—(Hear, bear, hear.) The very powerful arguments urged by the Noble Baron who had moved the amendment were directed to that point. A Noble Lord who had addressed the House the other night, bad argued the same way, and other Noble Lords had adopted a similar course. The Noble Lord who had moved the amendment had paraded before their Lord ships a list of the persons who now sate in Parliament by virtue of that very abuse which the present Bill was in• tended to rectify, and had told their Lordships seriously that the value of the services of those Members was sufficient to redeem the character of the system, and leudly called on their Lordships to support it. The Noble Baron, however, had avoided, by great dexterity, stating to their Lordships the other defects of the system ; but he could not hide them from the eyes of their Lordships or his countrymen. The Noble Baron had prudently concealed the dangers to be appre hended from such a system ; and it had been left to a No ble Peer to come boldly forward, and then step forth into the lists, a Member of the Church, who with a boldness which he had hardly ever before witnessed, and which had given him great pain, proceeded to lift up the veil which the Noble B iron had so carefully kept down, for the purpose of concealing the defects of that system which he so much lauded. The Right Rev. Prelate had lifted up the veil, and shown those defects in all their horror, before their Lordships; and more than that, in the most earnest tone, he had called on their Lordships to perpetuate their existence. Why, he would ask their Lordships, were those shameful blots of the Constitution to remain ? They were shameful, be cause they placed in the hands of parties a degree of power improper for them to possess. It was impossible that their Lordships could have any guarantee that those irre sponsible persons would not employ that power to an im proper purpose. It was shameful, because it was noto rious that many who possessed the right of nomination to which so touch value had been attached, exercised it most improperly, and made it a subject of barter and sale.—(Hear, hear.) It was notorious that those who wished to get into Parliament under such a system were compelled to pay for it. Yet still this denomi nation was called the security of the Constitution.— (Hear, hear.) It was a notorious fact that that right had been contaminated in the most foul manner, and that it was to be obtained through the medium of money.—.(Cheering.) Such being the case, he thought it a scandal to the representation of the country. It was contrary to the ancient right, and freedom of election. It was contrary to all law and justice, and was founded upon the most inequitable principles.—(Cheers.) Ought not, therefore, such a system to be put an end to ?—( Hear, hear,) Di i he ray this from any fancy of his own ? Did he say it from extracts from old musty records, or from some antiquated, phi losophical constitution maker? Did be state it from the words of any Minister of France or of Belgium? No. He stated it upon higher grounds than any which he had stated. He stated it upon words of authority, which he must beg their Lordships to give him leave to say their Lordships had better not depart from. He gave the words of an Act of Parliament, and perhaps it might be as well to tell their Lordships how the law dealt with all who were parties to such improper acts ; it declares them to be incapacitated for sitting in Par !lament for those places which they had usurped—it in fact eeclared them to be no Members of Parliament. He would ask whether there had not been laws passed against individuals who had so been declared to be no Members of Parliament? The Right Reverend Prelate who supported this system without perhaps looking narrowly into the subject, when he knew to what it ended, would probably be ready to alter his opinion. It tended to debase not only the whole moral constitution, but the Government as well as the people.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But it had been said that that system was highly necessary to maintain the dignity of that House; lie denied that proposition most strongly. He said if the cha racter of that House--the power and existence of that House, depended upon the maintenance of that abusive system, be hoped that that would be the last session of the House meeting upon such terms. If he was told that he was a revolutionist, because he advocated the extirpa tion of those abuses, he gloried in the term, though it was meant to be abusive ; for he could not I elieve it when told by any man, that the existence of that House entirely depended upon those abuses which had been so long the gangrene of the Constitution.—(Hear.) If their Lordships thought it necessary, as he thought they did, to deal with that question on the principle which he had mentioned, then the establishment of those facts went far to justify the principle of the mea sure ; for if it was necessary to apply the disfranchisement to some places, it certainly was equally necessary to apply the principle of enfranchisement to other places. The Noble Earl who had spoken last, had himself taken steps to apply those principles on a former occasion, (Hear, hear, bear) and how he came now to oppose the second reading of this Bill, he only could explain ; but in his late speech he had given no reasons which appeared to him satisfactory. The Noble Earl then quoted a passage from the speech of Mr. Burke,—but if he (Lord Goderich) had met with the same passage he would have thought it a most excellent reason for supporting the measure. Because, what was the substance of the passage ? It recommended a change in time, in order to prevent a greater change being necessary, at a future period. This was the principle of the present measure, for the time had gone by for the Noble Earl's bit. by-bit Reform ; had it been introduced some years ago, the present measure might have been rendered unnecessary. The Noble Lord had argued against his Noble Friend's (Grey's) statement that revolution was a change, and said that was a weak argument, because he was prepared to show instances in which great changes had occurred, and that horrors of a dreadful nature had taken place under the sanction of the law, on the same principles as those upon which his Noble Friend vindicated the present Bill. He asked the Right Reverend Prelate by what law it was, or by what part of the French Consitution it was, that the mum of Paris descended to the commission of such horrors as had been detailed ? He asked by what known law in France it was that a mob of men and women—mare like demons than human beings, issued from Paris, drove the King and Queen from their own chambers, murdered their guards, and carried before them not the ensigns ol Royalty, but the too frightful symbols of murder ? Was that dune under any known law ?—(He tr, It was true that there existed in France at that time a sort of representative body ; but it was the very antipodes of that legislative body that had previously ex isted. There had been Chambers of Nobles, Assemblies of the Clergy, and pairs des etats, but there was at that time a total separation of those assemblies. He asked, then, where was the similarity between that vas • and the present ?—(Loud cheers.) Would any man say that the extinction of the nomination boroughs was not only consistent with, but founded on the principlee of the Constitution ? Would any man say, that in giving Members to large towns this mea sure was not called for by necessity ?—( Hear, hear.) And if they were obliged to call forth a new constituency, on what principle could they act unless it was to call that constituency from the inhabitants of the voting? t inconsistent tiio towns?— And of inh a bi tan t h ouse h o ld ers also ? In some places (Cheers.) Wh at was t h e principle of the scot and lot right of g? se had alr e ady sent M em b ers to Parl i ament. It w onsist en t w i t h common sense to charge the a present measure as revolutionary. They might say that it went too far— (Hear)—that the gratification was too low, and the enfranchisement and disfranchise ment were too extensive ; but he defied any person of common sense to say that the principle of the Bill was inconsistent either with the law, the practise, or the spirit of the Constitution.—(Cheers.) But they were told, that in respect to the extended franchise, they were increasing a demociatic class of voters. He wish d to know in what respect the measure was so democratic as it had been declared to be. It was admitted that it was necessary to extend the right of voting to the middle classes ; but many of the Noble Lords who objected to the 101. qualification imagined I W. to be the maximum, and that nobody in the great towns who paid more than 101. a-year would be entitled to vote. Again he asked why the less cultivated or the less fortunate persons should be excluded from the right of voting ? If there did exist a class of persons who had nothing but their industry to support them, was that sufficient l be at least honest and industrious.— to exclud e th em from the right of voting? By the pre sent Bill th e l owest class of persons invested w i t h th e privilege night (Hear, and c h eers. ) Various conditions were i mposed upon that class, such as their having occupied a house twelve months and paid rent, which was the strongest presumption that they were at least honest and irelustrious.—(Hear.) If they were not so; they could not comply with the conditions imposed on them. He therefore saw no reason why that class should be prevented from exercising the elective franchise. He was aware there were persons in the country who had had motives, and whose con duct was disgraceful. But he a-us of opinion, that in extend ing the franchise to that class, out of which those persona were deluded, they furnished the best means of inducing all to unite in sending to the House of Coalitions persons who were fit to represent them, and who would do their duty properly. In his opinion, the objections to this new franchise had been carried to a most extravagant length, if, indeed, they were not absolutely visionary. The Noble Lord then proceeded to make comments on what had fallen from some of the Right Reverend Prelates ; hit from his addressing himself particularly to the Bench of Bishops, and being at a considerable distance from the gallery, we were unable to hear what he said lie was frequently interrupted by loud cheers. Several Noble Lords here cried out " Question," and a pause ensued, during which The Earl of ELDON rose. From the low tone of voice in which the Noble Earl spoke, we were almost wholly unable to catch the import of his remarks. He alluded to the period when the revolution of 1688 took place, and said, that the first act which was done by the Parliament was to declare themselves the free and efficient body of repre sentatives of the whole Commons of England. The prin ciple on which that body proceeded teemed to be forgotten at the present day. For there were some Members of Parliament who allowed themselves to be called the delegates of the people, and taken to task for the votes they might give. He thought it high time not to Reform the House of Com mons, but so to alter that system as to prevent a person sitting in Parliament, who would consent to such an indignity.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It hail been stated over and over again, that he had declared himself an enemy to all Reform. He denied it, for no man could be an enemy to all Reform. He repeats-I what he had stated lately in the House, that he had pledged himself, not against Reform, belt to investigate and determine whether the measure brought forward under the name of Reform, was really what it was professed to be. He knew the blessings which this country had enjoyed hitherto, blessings which made all ranks of men in this country ; he knew that whether in this House or the other the Members were but trustees for the benefit of the people. But it had been said that during the last half century, he had voted against every description of Reform that had been proposed, He must confess that during that period many Re forms had been proposed, which he could much rather have voted for, than the present one. But he declared that he had never seen any plan brought forward which bad a ten. dency to promote the happiness of the people. During that period he had never known, either in that or the other House, one measure brought forward under the enchanting name of Reform, which appeared to him an altera tion fir the better.—(Hear, hear.) If they looked hack to the propositions of Mr. Pitt, of Mr. Fox, and of the present Premier, and compared them with the present Bill, they would perceive that no such measure as the present bad ever been thought of. The Noble Lord now at the head of Government once proposed the appointment of a Committee on the subject of Reform. But his motion failed. He subsequently moved to add 100 knights of the shire to the county representation; there he also failed. indeed every proposition for Reform which was brought forward in the Commons, while he (Lord Elden) sat there, failed, for the House was of opinion that so far from being an improvement of the Constitution, the al teration would be a dangerous one, These came the Bill which was last before their Lordships, the preamble of which was so vicious in its principle that it was utterly impossible ea to connect the clauses of it in Committee, as to make it at all beneficial to the country. That Bill was lost, and the present Bill brought in, the preamble of which was an exact copy of the former one. He contended, therefore, that as the preamble of the present Bill was as objectionable as that of the former Bill, it ought to meet the sante fate. When he recollected what would be the consequences of the doctrines of the sovereignty of the people he could not but tremble under the idea of those con sequences. When he recollected that this was the anniversary of the day of the passing of that measure, of which it was thought the Irish would make so good a use, he thought he might ask whether those fruits which their Lordships looked far with so much confidence, had arisen out of the seeds which had then been sown?' He thought there would be no difficulty in answering this question. With respect to this measure, no argument in Committee could bring before their Lordships any thing with regard to it which they had not heard in the course of tire last and of the present debates. The objections to the last Bill were, among others, that by it their Lordships were taking away those vetted rights which it had been the pride of the country to sustain, and which it had heretofore been the anxious object of the Legislature to protect. But what would their Lord ships say even if the Bill which was formerly rejected had been the law of the laud when tie Bill would authorise them to sty they had taken away the franchise from those to whom it ought to be continued, and added Members to various places from which others had been taken away ? and yet the last Bill was are gued, just as much as this, to have been 4 final Bill. Nevertheless, nobody who knew what had taken place in this country since the year 1795, could suppose that either the Jut Bill or the present Bill, if either the one or the other were passed into a law, could Lie a final Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the last revolution in France had produced all the anxiety which was now felt; and the more distant revolution in France, namely that in 1789, hed been endeavoured to be followed up by a revolution in this country. Whether that revolutionary spirit had progressed ever since that time in one country or other, some Noble Lords might perhaps be better able say than himself. In the years 1789, 1790, and so on, however, no man could walk the streets of London without seeing posted:egain the walls in large letters, "No King, No King !"—and he (the Noble Lord) was as sure as he was in existence, that if a Bill were passed now upon the revolutionary principle of the present measure, condemning all the institutions of the country which had been held sacred for centuries, he could not but tremble for that danger, in which the Throne of this country would indisputably be placed. At the same time, the consequences which would undoubtedly follow the passing of the measure would be a just penis ,meat and nothing but a just punishment of those who bad advised his Majesty to sanction such a proceeding, nay, there was nu infliction of punishment that ought not to follow it. He would be glad to know if the Crown were to exercise its power for the purpose of defeating an Act of Parliament, it that would not be the exercise of one of the most dangerous powers that it could enter into the mind of man to conceive.— He had bestowed the greatest consideration upon this subject, and protested that nothing in the world should induce him to take away vested .ights unless guilt were proved, or compensation offered. All our old writers had sail that the right of voting was a tem porary property joined with a trust, and unless that trust were betrayed, the temporary property could not be taken away. Tire nature of the property to which the right of voting was attached had b, en known for ages, and had been the subject of purchase and sale, the right of voting at tached to it being taken into consideration. They had nut now the Irish Bill before them, or he would name boroughs, the patrons of which were compensated for their annihilation at the Union. He would not ray whether the English who owned boroughs ought now to claim such a compensation ; but this he woule, say, that no man of honour wire had received compensation for an Irish borough, could vote for the eecourl reading of this bill, which gave no compensation to the owners of Eng lish borough;, without to-morrow going to the Tree suary, where, from all account, money weal rather wanred,—(A laugh,)--and present the sum which he had reccieved for this Irish bormegh.—(Laughter.) It was his sincere belief that the great mass of intelligence and property in the ceuotry was adverse to this Bill ; he did not say that the political unions were not in its favour—unions which it had been intended to put down by proclamation, but which have certainly proved of no avail, ;or money was taken fturn the operatives of this country hi the shape of weekly and monthly sub scriptions to carry on election contests, sometimes at a distance of two hundred miles from their own homes. He would not be any party to tampering with the Constitution :of the country in the manner this Bill tampered with it; cud let happen what may, he, a, a layman;, would say what had been already said by a Right Reverend Prelate—he woull do his duty, and leave the event in the hands of Providence. He could not sit down without protesting against the un constitutional use which had been made of the King's name It was proper to advise the Krug to recommend Reform to the consideration of Parliarneut, but it was not proper et ,llude to him as approving of all the details of this measure, The duty ha owed to that King,—the duty he owert to their Lordships,—the duty he owed to all his fel low subjects of every rank and degree,--..asst with respect to their rights, all stood equally high, and he considered himself a trustee for theirs all,—corn pelted him to vote against this measure. For the sake of the higher orders, fur the sake of the middle orders, for the take of the lower orders, he would never be a party to depriving any of them of the blessings of that Con stitution, which, whatever might be said of it, hail rendered them happier than any other people on the face of God's earth, and gives to the country a y aL;(1 wVoll had realPrv,l :f the rt41nTr...1, , r. Ind glory of the world. Lord TENTERDEN then rose re address the House ; but lie Nohlc Lord spoke in so low a tent of voice as to be divest inaudablc. We understood him to say, that :et emild not on this ()minion give a silent vote, but roust bran' tm,,,tf,:e second reading why eadilig he foundoif this isß h il i l nf hound . isel Ttieii ues t t o lon vo b te ef:e i rei n t e: douse was, whether an alteration should be made in the election of Members of the House of Commons, to a rio!ent degree. If the question had been ae to a Bill for he Reform of Parliament, of a moderate character, he would have voted for its second reading ; but this w e nut the case, for the question before the House was, whe ther they were to go into the consideration of aspecific Bill, which he, in his conscience, thought ought not to pas, that House. The effect of this Bill, if it were pasted, .is it seemed to him at least, would be to place the elec tive franchise in the hands of one chase of persons. If that class was the class commonly denominated the middle class of society, he would not have bad the same objections which he had now to it ; but he thought that by this Bill that power would be given to a class, who, though they were entitled to their Lordship' protection, yet were not entitled to have such power placed in their hands, because they, in his opinion, could not use it for a good purpose. He had listened most earnestly, and with great attention to all that had been said io favour of the Bill ; but he had not heard a word in its favour, which induced him to think that the. elective franchise should be extended to the villages around London. He had no objection to the franchise being ex-- tended to Manchester and such places that had raised themselves into opulence by their industry, but he deci dedly objected to such a sweeping measure ne the present Bill. It had been often said, that as this Bill had twice passed the House of Commons by large majorities, it therefore ought to pass that House. If once that principle was admitted there was end to their Lordships' power, and there was no use in their de bating such a Bill for several days, He could see no reason to hope that by the Biil going into Committee such amendments could he introduced into it, as would render it such as he could support ; therefore, he was bound to vote against the second reading.—(Heao The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by calling upon. their Lordships to give their decided and uncompre.- mising opposition to the Bill going into Committee. The Bishop of ROCHESTER rose amidst loud and general cries of " Question." When the sell had subsided the Right Rev. Prelate stated that nut having changed his sentiments, he was anxious to embrace that opportunity of explaining the grounds on which he hid determined to vote against this Bill it; all its stages. The only argument which had been adduced to induce the Right Rev. Pre lates to change their opinions, had chiefly respect to ex pediency. He, however, could not persuade himself of the propriety of legislating on expediency to the subver shin of all law and justice.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If it were proved that they should not de evil in order that good might ensue, and he Will persuaded that his Right Rev. Brethren would agree with him in the prin-- eiple, much less should they sanction a great evil for a temporary inconvenience. That temporary inconvenience was the pressure of popular opinion ; but he begged leave to draw here the distinction between popular cla mour and public opinion. He admitted that his Mue jesty's Government were supported by popular cla mour, but lee fairly believed that the majority of what he called public opinion were opposed to the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Now it was said by some, " Vox Popuii, vox Del." He said no, and he re peated it, for God himself had declared it otherwise. He read in the Scriptures of the raging of the sea and of the noise of its billows ; but he never beard of the people who were thus compared, extolled for prudence. Nu man more respected the people in their proper station than he did let a man be a commoner, if he pea formed his duty in that station of life in which he was pleeed, he was as much worthy of respect and confidence as the highest Peer in that House.—(Cheers.) But he said, "Ne outer ultra crepidarn t" they were not to be called out of their sphere, and elevated above it It had been said that if the middle classes of society, and those to whom the franchise by this Bill was to be given, had had a share in the representation, there would have been no war, no taxes, and no public debt,. Whet was the excitement that prevaled after all the great naval victories of the country ? It was well known, and therefore it was not necessary for him to state it. But what was the enthusiasm of later days? That which fol lowed the Noble Duke after his great victories? Why he could not pass through the streets without being wel comed and hailed by the populace. Yet that very individual a very short time ago he had seen hissed and hooted at, by those very persons who but a short time afiere wards followed the carriage of the French Arnbae sador, and loaded him with applause —(Hear, hear.) Such was popular opinion. But what was public opi nion, and how ought it to be expressed ? Nut by the voice of clamour, but by the opinion of the House of Commons, who was the true representative of the people ; but not by a House of Commons whose Membets hail been elected by intimidation and by mob law. He asserted, public opinion was with them, but popular opilion was in favour of the Bill.—(Great cheeriug.) He held his seat in that House under a different tenour from matey of their Lordships. His ancestors however had sat in that House for nearly 500 years, end he would never disgrace them or himself by voting for the destruction of that Constitution which the present Bill had in view, under which the country had so long flourished, and had risen to its present emi nence.—(Cheers.) The Bishop of GLOUCESTER requested the iudul gence of their Lordships while he made a few observations. He should not have intruded himself on their Lord ships bad it not been the pleasure of many Noble Lords to make pointed appeals to the Right Reverend Bench. He trusted, therefore, that their Lordship? candour would allow him to state . the grounds on which he intended to give the vote be should. —(ll,•ar.) A Noble Earl, the representative of an honour able house, had held out specifie indications to the Episcopal Bench what he considered ought to induce them to vote for the Bill—because he stated it was for their interest, and that they were always ready to advocate that. It the Noble Earl intended that insinuation to apply to the Bench of which he had the honour to he a Member, he begged to tell him that he rejected the imputation with unutterable scorn.—(Tremendous cheering.) But if lie intended it only to refer to the general interests of the clergy of the Church of England, he must allow him to tell him that he knew of no interest which any single clergyman held, different front the whole body. What was conducive to tie interest of the people , ••as equally so to the clergy. But see Neale Lerd Lad risen on the next night, not to explain, but to add to bis remarks on the Bench of Bishops. ire h assured them that he Ohl not attack them as ieliionists, but only for the purpose of impeaching them wish profligate conduct in that House. He had brought firwani no con troversial charge against them, but only a mu; ,l—he im peached them not of heresy, hut °toy of pottl gutty.— (Cheers.) Another observation made the Notmle was that the clergy had always shown themselves abettors of oppression and of tyranny. Such charges must either be true, or foul and inonetrous calumny..—(Heat.) He called upon the Noble Earl in the face of the Lermishipa and of the.country to substantiate his charges by proof, or he must accept the other alternative.—(Cheers.: , And ne might be assured, that not all his hue of aucestry would be ably to protect him from the disgrace thet evoald attend mmita.--(nn era.) With respect tm the elietge of tyranny, ha would remand their Lordships that the last tyrant who reigned in this country was King James the Smicond—w.o showered favours on his abettors. He would net say who his. abettors were, but would leave the Nu ble Earl to judge—(Hear, hear, hear)—and lied it not been for the spirit that was engendered by the Church of England, the country would have been destroyed. The members of the Church were more mo. derete in the exaction of their dues then the prop • -tore of Ity tithes. When famine, with all tt horrors, vieee .1 Ireland, ~f all persons who came forward to aseie:, the sutfertis on that occasion, none were more prominent, Itnere!, and en ergetic than the clergy. With respect to the reeent qmm stier, the clergy had been pieced in a very peculiar situation. It Wag known that on the Recoil of th e last Bill the greater part of them voted against it, and what was the consequence ? Why, that they had beta subjects of obloquy ever since. Tney had no interest, direct or indirect, iu the preservAion of nomination boroughs, and if they were to be looked upon as private mndividu ds, what possible inducement .ould t .ey have to oppose a measure introduced by his M sty', Ministers ? Their only object slid wisil Was, to preserve peace and contentment. 0, all time charges a•lvauceu against them (the Bench of Bi , hop , ) only one admitted o f a moment's consideration, which was, that they were combined a e ainst the nmeaeure, that their opposition was the very re-ult of a conspiracy. fills was one of the most untrue az , sm tionN tlwt bad been made against them.--( Hear, hear, S r far :rum there being any conepirac, their Lad not been .1 single meeting, or any thing like as underetarieieg, among the Bishops as to time course they should a opt. On the former occasion, havoig given the subject , v i a most cousiderate deliberative, be had tilt airnself called upon to vote against the Bill. Nothing had transpired sitter that time e,