The Sun. — London, England, 1832-02-15 00:00:00

- hers, or the tiewate . h of public business required, and that as there appeared to them no alternative between building • a new House of Commons, or allowing the House to re main in its present state, they thought they were not jus ei:ied in going into any further inquiries without again re curving to the opinions and pleasure of the House. After observing that the Hon. Member for Mid(ll-sex, who sat on that 'C o mmittee, had expressed himself in femur of a new and magnificent House of Comniens, the Gallant Member proceeded to explain again the manner in which he uroposed throwing back the eailery, to afford acconi- inaia ion in the body of the House for 100 additional I . N/ e mbers, and at the same time giving additional rooms to the officers of the House, and he concluded by moving for onother Committee to inquire into the merits of his plan, by considering the state of the body of the House, and the offices connected with it, with a view of affording better accommodation to the Members, and facilitating the despatch of public busineas." Mr. WARBURTON expressed his rarprise that the Gallant Member should have suprosed that the Member for Middlesex intended to favour the erection of a magni ficent House of Commons,—(A laugh.) He (Mr. War burton) had not been on the Committee, bet he had con versed with his Hon. Friend on the subject, and he knew that magnificence formed ne part of his plan.--( Hear, sad a laugh.) Magnificence was the last word that could he applied to any pier. ot the Member for :Middlesex.—(A laugh.) His plan was merely to build a larger and more nimodious House, if the Members agreed that the nreent one was not sufficient. He (Mr. Warburton) however, ohjected to the proposal et the Hon. Member "or Cambridge (Colonel Trench), which went to make an inconvenient oblong room still more oblong. If they wanted a plan with all the advantages of hearing and seeing, let them take one of the theatres of the tendon I:a:varsity, where every person was placed at the same distance from the speaker, so that he ha.`: the means of 'preserving order in the whole areeetnitly.--( Hear, and a laugh.) very one acquainted with that House knew that from its shape it .7:• - as impossible for the Speaker to .:reserve, on crowded nights, the order that was desirable. With this feeling, he, for one, would prefer the erection ot a new House. to the adoption of the plan of the Hon. M tuber, which he was confident, would he fund nearlv as expensive, without giving any of the requisite conve niences. With regard to the Committee, he arenld only say, that as the Hon. Member had tried his plan before ore Committee, he did not see why he was to have an other for precisely the same purpose. He thought it would be infinitely better for the Members to come at ot:ce to the conclusion of whether it was fitting to a no' House or not; and if they thought that a new me should he erected, to refer the matter at once either to the Board of Works, or to an architect chosen for the purpose. Sir J. WROTTESLEY said the simple question for the House to determine was, whether it would have a new building or not, as he believed every one who knew any thing of architectural matters was satisfied that the alte ration plan of the Hon. Member (Trench) wou'd not give satisfaction, grad at the same time prove nearly as expensive as a new erection.—(Hear.) Instead of grant. ins another Committee, he would recommend the bolls. to pause, and take time to consider whether they would be content with the present building, or erect a new one. Lord ALTHORP at present did not wish to give any kspinion, and begg«l to be considered as leaving the matte, to the House, and not interfering, in one w or the other. Sir R. PEEL had no hesitation in saying, that if the question was put that night whether they were to have a new House, or retain the present one, he should vote for the House as it then stood with all its inconveniences. Colonel TRENCH replied, and having exprvsged hi• regret that he was not to he the humble instrument for procuring the 'Members a better accommodation, asked leave, under such an expression of their opinions, to with. d raw his motion.—Motion withi!rawn accordingly. CHOLERA MORBUS. Lord ALTHORP hoped the Howe would, under a con sideration of the exigency of the occasion, pardon him for pressing the subject of his motion on their consideration at the earliest opportunity, and at the same time so for the whole elpen'e ciut of the general funds of the country Mr. STANLEY observed, across the table, that there were two Acts, the sSth and 39th of Gen. 111., which provided measures for preventing the spread of contagiou+ diseases in Ireiand, and it would he merely necessary to introduce a short Bill, with some additional provisions. Sir R. PEEL was still convinced it would be better to pay the expence of fulfilling the order of the Privy Council as he recommended, instead of multiplying the means of carrying these measures into effect. It was the duty of, the Government to bring the Bill into operation as quickly as possible, and that object would be much expedited by simplifying its details.—(Hear, hear.) Lord MILTON felt himself bound to entreat the Noble Lord to adopt the Right Hon. Baronet's suggestion. He entreated him to accede to it. The obj•ct of the eYpen diture, the prevention of the propagation of a dreadful disease, was not parochial but national, and should be paid out of the national fends.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUNT ellreeted the attention of the Noble Lord to the ett.te of the parish of Bethnil-green, and asked him if it was possible to colh ct any rates there for the purpose of paying the expence of obeying the orders of the Gamed ? He begged also to direct Attention to the fact that the Lord Mayor had given a house in Abcbuieh-lane, in the very heart of the city, for the use of persqas attacked by the dise'se. Was nut the existence of such an establishment, in such a quarter, one of the surest means of propagating disease Sir G. CLERK said that the disease bad already ap peared in Edinburgh, and lie, therefore, suggested to the Noble Lord the propritt; , of legalising, with the least pos sible delay, the measures which the Council might thick proper to adopt for preventing the progress of the con tagion in Scotland. If the Noble Lord would consult the Learned Lord Advocate, he would hear froro him, hut for the aid of gifts, of "Tuluntary sus scriptions. it would have been implealble, in many places, to meet the ex pencea v:hiCh had been incurred. He knew that the ML g;strates had the strongest dispositiou to obey the orders and injunctions of the Privy Council, but the law did not authorise them to use compulsory measures, and he hoped, therefore, that the Noble Lard would lose no time in arm ing them with the necessary powers. Lord ALTHORP said, the ground of objection taken by the Government to the defraying the expence • out of the public funds, was, that there would be no check on such an expenditure, and that it would lead, therefore, to great extravagance.—(Hear, hear.) Although he ad mitted it would be a very bad economy not to give a sum sufficient for the purpose, yet the Government were natu rally unwilling to entrust an uncontrouled power with an expenditure which might he converted into waste and ix travagance. 'f he object was, where the purposes of the Council could he effected, not to spare any necessary ex pence, but at the same time to avoid all useless outlay ; and he thought this would be best effected by the provisions of the Bill, which, by making the cost parochial at first, pre served the necessary controul, and at the same time afforded a check to all extravagsnce.—(Hear.) Mr. WARBURTON again took occasion to ask the Noble Lord how he proposed to legalise the demand on the vestry for the money in the first instance ? Lord ALT HORP replied, that the Orders of the Council being rendered legal by the Bill, it followed that the demand for the expenses would be legal when made on the parishes. Mr. GOULBURN supported the views of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) with respect to the payment out of the national purse. All payments would be made furtherance of the Orders of the Council, and of theirs ,nly, and therefore they would have by that means a com plete controul over the expenditure. It might happen in he other case, by making the expenditure parochial, that the Orders of the Council would he obeyed in those cases where the least necessity existed, and not obeyed fully in ,:ases of emergency.—(Hear.) Sir R. VYVYAN thought that the penalty of five pounds was not sufficient to procure a strict adherence to , he regulations, and recommended, therefore, that the sum ,hould be raised or the powers of the Council increased. No one could object to this, for it was one of the questions into which there entered no party feeling. All were, he hoped, emulous of contributing to promote the public dispense with the ordinary forms as to allow the stages of nealth and welfare.—(Hear, hear.) his Bill to be gone through ae far as possible that evening. Lord ALTHORP reminded the Hon. Baronet that the He must, at the came time, take leave, in making this Bill made offences a misdemeanour, at the same time it gave request, to state to them a little more at large than ordi- lower to inflict a fine. nary, the nature and provisions of his Bill. Althougt Colonel TRENCH, adverting to the Noble Lord's pro the Orders in Ceuncil were issued, there was no power vision in the Bill for the burial of the dead, took occasion veste din the Privy Council to compel their hting legal!~ us ask if any place had teen provided for that purpose ? carried into effect ; and, therefore, when the Orders of Every one knew the state of the receptacles for that pur the Council for the prevention of contagion were promul. pose in the metropolis and its vicinity. ga ted, aethere was no pewter to compel obedience to tbese. Mr. P. THOMSON said, the subject had been some orders, it became necessary to apply to Parliament to ob. time under the consideration of the Government. A ne t:tin it in order that they might be fully carried into effect. g,ciation had been entered into for a piece of ground, and Undoubtedly, therefore, the power which he no w requ i re d the purchase had been made on that day, so that the ar to be vested in the Privy Council was great, but it w as rangernents as far as that point went were completed. limited as to time, for he prepared, under present circum. With respect to the willingness of the parishes to contra. stances, that the Act which he meant to bring in should bute for the promotion of the objects in view, he could expire either at the end of the year, or at the expirati on only say, that since the formation of the Board of Health, of the next Session of Parliament. He thought it w eu hi various applications had been made to the Government for be admitted that it was both desirahle and necessary such supplies, which were necessarily refused, but subscriptions powers shoold he vested with the Government on the pre- were recommended, and he was happy to say that in almost sent emergency. All the Acts of the Council would of every instance there had been no lack of individual benefi rour-e be submitted to the consideration of Parliament, cence and private charity. tint he hoped it would be allowed that no delay should take Mr. CROKER did think it would be hard that local place in the exa cation of those measures which were funds should provide against the extension of a diseess, necessary for the prevention of the contagion, and th e the progress of which the whole nation was interested in preservation of the health of the people. The first provi. cresting. They whip were then in that House were as sion of th e Bill empowered any three Members of the Privy touch interested in opposing the advance of this fearfui Council, of whom the President of the Council or the Se scourge, whether it made its appearance in Spitalfields trete!), of State were always to be one, should have power er in any other district of the metropolis ; and when it to make rollers for the prevention of contagion, for the re appeared in the county of Kent, the neighbouring county lief of the sick, and for the burying of the dead.—(Hear, of Sussex was as much interested in its extinction at the bear.) Every person would admit the propriety of usieg inhabitants of the former place. Then why should the exertions to stop, as far as could he practicable, the pro- burden be local? There was this further consideration grecs of contagion. No one could deny that the greatest which should be borne in mind, that in whatever measures rd mast serious evils must arise from any delay in afford- it might be necessary to adopt, care should be taken not mg relief to those attacked ; and as to the last, it was found to introduce any provision likely to hear upon the work that all precautions would he ineffectual unless measures int: classes or the poor, or likely to diminish their mean' -were adopted for the immediate interment of the dead.-- of employment; fur there could be no doubt that famine (Hear, hear.) The next provision of the Bill declared ~r even distress would be attended with the most direful that every person violating the orders of the Council for effects. To the half million of inhabitants residin g the preservation of the public health, should he held to be close to the hanks of the Thames, any interference with guilty of a misdemeanour, and fined any sum which may their means of comfortable subsistence must not only in be considered expedient, from one pound to five pounds. crease the burdens upon the poor's rates, end thereby --(Hear.) He admitted that the Bill gave very great diminish the amount avail able for the prevention of the and arbitrary powers to the Privy Council—powers which disease, but tend to generate those causes to which the nothing could justify except evreme necessity, but he disease i'self was usually attributable. After the best re hoped that the necessity of the present case were such as flection he could bestow upon the subject, it was his de. to justify the Parliament in placing such powers in their tided opinion that the expence ought to he provided for har-ts.—(Hear, hear.) The next provision of the Bili from the general funds of the nation; it might be added, related to the expense of carrying the orders into for example, to one or other of the civil contingencies. effect ; and here he might observe, that it was not in- Sir R. H. INGLIS expressed strong apprehension that tended to apply the provisions of the Act to Ireland, the disease might be of long continuance in this country; it because there were no means of the same description had ravaged India for fourteen years ; and, therefore, he to be found in those countries for defraying the ex- should much more readily support a permanent measure pence. As soon, however, as arrangements could he than any temporary expedient, however promising ; and he carried into effect, it was his intention to introduce therefore was not disposed to support the suggestion of the another Bill for effecting the same object in Scotland anti Right Hon. Baronet near him. Ireland. He proposed, then, that in England the expense Sir M. W. RIDL EY, from what he learned in the should be paid in the first instance out of the poor-rates North, could assure the House that local funds, or volunt try of the several parishes, and that the SUMS expended should •uhseriptions, would never prove enough to arrest the pro ultimately be repaid by the counties out of the county gross of the disease ; and at the same time it was much to rates. The Government had, en a consideration of the be feared, that if the funds of the nation at large were once difference of the parishes, and the extent to which on e opened to the purposes of the proposed Bill, it would at might be called on beyond another, not thought it fair to at once dry up the sources of private charity. In thus lay the expense on individual parishes, but, on th e con- stating the difficulties against which they bad to contend, trary, to require the whole to be ultimately re p a id o ut o f he be r.o means wished to discourage the House from pro the county rates. They had, after some consideration, ceeding further, for he knew that not a moment was to thought it fairer to lay the expense not on the parish alon e , be lost. The first and second reading of the Bill, he but on the county generally. These were the provisions thought, should be agreed to, and in the Committee such of the Act. He had already mentioned the limitation of clauses might be added as the cause seemed to require. It time in which it was to be in operation ; and he hoped, was an emergency which must be met with firmness and after t h e ex pl ana tion he had given, that the House would caution, but at the same time every effort should be be induced to allow it to pass as rapidly through its se- adopted to inspire the people with hope, and even with verel stages as the form of their proceedings would admit. confidence. Care should be taken to prevent men giving Mr. WARBURTON begged to ask the Noble Lord way to unreasonable scprehensions, for it was generally found that. t hose most under the influence of fear were the wheth er t h e Bil l conta i ne d any p rov ision to empower the vest r y to rais e a rate f or t h e purpose ? Because, if it did chief sufferers, while those who courageously and humanely not, it was i n the power of one par i s hi one r to deprive the assisted their fellow-creatures escaped, wi-h very few ex pariah of all funds for the purposes which the Noble Lord ce p tione. The Hon. Baronet then proceeded to enurne described. I t was i n the powe t. of any p arishioner to object rate the various classes of the community considered to be to such an appli cat i on o f the funds of the arish bec ruse the most p redis p osed to the disease, and concluded by it would be ill ega l, an d as this would be a s p ecious ' obstacle impressing on the House the necessity of decisive and to the accomplishme nt of the very desirable objects which prompt measures. the Government had in view, he thought one it da ,swould delay, be Mr. A. DUNDAS also hoped that no time might be lost. better for the Noble Lord to consent toMr.. HODGES was clearly of opinion that counties and in order that proper inquiries may be made on y the sine parishes could never be expected to supply the necessary ject, and whether all the provisions of the Bill would be funds—the evil to be met was a national evil, and to carried into effect. which, therefore, the national purse could with propriety Sir R. PEEL was fully satisfied that every Member of be applied. the House would admit the necessity of investing the Mr. STANLEY fully agreed with the list speaker, that Government with indefinite pow ers un d er the peculiar cis- local resources would neither be sufficient for the purptrsea cumstances of the case, and on an emergency, the precis e required, nor could they with fairness be so applied. The extent of which could not b e h ear. ) exp e nce should be national, and it was a purpose for which Suspecting no abuse of the powers entrusted to the Govern.. no expence would be toe great for the purpose of arresting merit , li e thought it I etter to entrust the Council with th e the pregiese of such a scourge. The question was not as powers they demanded, without attempting to define them to the expenc e , but whether they should then or in the too closely.—( Hear, hear.) The cholera, however, al- Committee cons u lt as to the precautions which ought with though not a parochial di sea se, would be felt probably most out delay to be adopted. The point which they had to deeply in the poorest Parishes; and as the limits of the consider was not whether the nation was to incur expence counties were very ariaitrary—as the expence might from or not, but what were the most effectual means of esta peculiar circums /laces be as great in Rutland, for instance, blisfung such a controul over the expenditure of the public as in Yorkshire—he recommended the Noble Lord et money as would insure its application to the purposes for once to -implafy his [aloe by defraying the whole expence which it waii intended- He thought it would not be an out of the national funds.—(Heir , bear.) Th e Noble unwise course if they left it to the parishes or the counties Lord had told them it would be necessary to have another j to determine what sam might be necessary ; and when the - Bill for S c otl a nd and Ireland; and would it not be much disease did disappear he had no doubt that Parliament better, instead of making complicated arrangements, to pay would be perfectly ready to reimburse them for such :Ad. vances. that, upon the best consideration, opinion, the best and the safe.t course. Irons the totally defective and negligent manner in which the accounts were there kept. He instanced the irregular manner in which the business of the Vic tualling Office was transacted, in respect to a corn mill erected by that Board to grind flour for biscuit- baking for the Navy, which appeared by the archi tect's estimate in 1826, to be submitted to the Board at a probable cost of 44,0001., which in 1827 was re duced to 37,800/., and when he came into office he found the whole sum expended on the building amounted to above 76,000/. of which the only sum voted by Parliament for this service was B,oool.—(Hear.) This was hut one of several items where the outl .y exceeded so materially the vote of money granted by Parliament, as applicable to that particular service. In the instance of the works at Weovil, though not one shilling had been voted by Parlia ment, the outlay exceeded 155,0001 all of which he found paid when he came into office. He admitted that in this instance an estimate h d been laid before the Admiralty— this amounted to 206,000/. ; though none bad been laid before the House, nor had there been any vote of money by Parliament in the usual way. The case of Woolwich was also in point, where, of an expenditure exceeding 400,0001. in the period he alluded to, little more than a f'urth had been provided for by Parliamentary votes. In this way, the expence always exceeding the vote of Parlia ment, it would be found that from 182.5 to 1830, although a sum not less than 839,408/. had been expended in this department, the amount of all the votes did not exceed 270,4651., leaving unprovided for by Parliament a surplus which must be supplied from other funds not communed by the House of 568,9131.—(Hear, hear.) It would here he necessary to premise that, by an order of the Treasury, in the time of Lord Sand.vich's Adrninietra tier], bearing date in the year 1776, confirmed by Par liament, the supply of timber fit for building and repairing ships was on no account to be less in the yards than au average supply fur two years. It had b. en the practice of late years to evade this regulation ; the purchases were not kept up. as appeared by official letters, from which he read extracts, and the 8111114 so left unap plied, though voted by Parliament, were appropriated to, amongst others, those buildings he had alluded to. This turn amounted, in the four years to which he alluded— during which considerable sums, for which no adequate vote had been taken, were laid out in cast buildings and naval works—ti no less than 1,029,000/., so much less being expended in ship timber than had been provided for by Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) There had been two very salutary regulations made by his immediate predecessors at the Admiralty—the first was a check they devised upon the issues and appropriation of public stores in the dock yards of the kingdom, consisting ledgers to be kept care fully of such issues at the different outporte, whilst a counter ledger of issues was to be kept at the office of the Navy Board. Now the object was, by this arrangement, to ascertain if the issues, taken together, of the outports corresponded with the issues in the counter ledger at the Navy Office. If this happened, there would be little doubt but that, by this plain and simple mode, ill fraud in this department would he impossible. Strange to say, however, notwithstanding this arrangement, so totally ir relionsible to the Admiralty did the Navy Office feel itself, that the arrear in ken ping this counter ledger at the Navy Office was so great, that no information what ever could by possibility be derived from it. So that though great efforts had been made to accomplish this ob ject, it might, for any use it w is of, he abandoned alto gether as hopeless.—( Hear.) But this was not the only instance of evasion, by that body, of the rules laid down to the N ivy Board. An order, by the same predecessors in office, of a similarly prudent charac'er, was laid down for its government by the Admiralty relative to the quan tum of men to be kept up and employed in the yards. The order was signed by the Noble Lord (Melville) and the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and certainly was one proceeding on the sound principle that the quota ap pointed was sufficient for the service during peace. It required the Board not to put any labourers on the list anew until they were reduced in number to the peace eeta bl:shinent—nantely, 6,000 ; and that when they should come down in number to 7,000, the men should then begin to work on Wedne-days. Now, this very proper order should have been, from its date, one year in opera tion when he came into office, at which time tlse number was 7,193, and the reduction, it would thence appear, had not been carried within 200 of the amount of reduction required by that order. These instances alone would suffice to show how imperfect was the controul which could be exercised by the Admiralty in three cases, and how flagrant and striking was the disobedience displayed on the part of the Navy Beard. One great and alarming source of expence arose out of the neglect of the Navy Board to provide means for taking stock iif stores in hand, so as to prevent surreptitious abstraction of the property of the public from the yards and stores throughout the different stations. In one ar ticle alone—namely, copper—although marked with the King's mark, so great had been the quantity purloined, that not less than five tons and a half of it were offered to manufacturers at Birmingham at a price so low as to ex cite suspicions in the fair trader that it was improperly procured. Although this occurred within eight weeks, and the transport of the copper was traced to Chatham, such was the imperfect way in which these things were checked or controuled in that yard, that the circumstance would never have been discovered there, had it not awakened suspicion in the fair trader, who was satisfied it could not fairly be offered at Birmingham, at so very dis proportionately low a price.—(Hear.) He apologized for going thus extensively into these transaction-, but he felt he was justified in that line of conduct, because be felt conscious he was about to propose very t xtensive things, and he therefore considered it expedient to justify that proposition, that he should lay the foundation proportion ably deep, on which he must finally base that proposition with which he would conclude.—(Hear, hear.) Al though one would have imagined, as an account of every thing was taken, furnished from the dock-yard, for the building of a shop, that, whether it was large or small, it would have been easy to have furnished an account of what might be the expense of the ves sel in building from the hooks at the yard, the House would be surprised to hear that nothing could be more difficult. In fact, an appeal to those books would end in nothing but dieapperntment and delusion ; it one was desirous of getting at the money cost of a ship of war, if it were confined even to what the cost was of the ma terials expended on her only during the last four month., such was the cabalistic form of price affixed to each item that the moment you came to figures, which, in other transac tions of life were intended to simplify and clear up every thing, here all was confusion. The money price was sure to lead to error worse confounded. All the prices were taken at the old war prices, at from 25 to 30, or even 40, per cent. beyond the present prices ; so that it was impos sible to obt in a return of actual cost price which was not a tissue throughout of deception and exaggeration. He would pursue this part of the subject no further , convinced in his own mind that lie had given instances enough to prove that the controul, as exercised now by the Admiralty, was unsatisfactory and inefficient.—(Hear, hear.) He should now approach the subject of the remedy which he intended to propose to check the evils of the present sys tem. He was aware that it could be effected by a mea sure which would only require the exertion of the King's prerogative, without being authorised by an Act of Parliament—namely, by a revocation of the patents by which the Navy and the Victualling Boards had been created. He, however, had thought it more desi rable to apply to Parliament, in the first instance, to obtain its sanction and recommendation of the measure of remedy—namely, the abolition of the Navy and Vic tualling Bo irds, and to provide that those duties should merge in, and he consolidated in the offices of the Board of Admiralty, which should be impnwered at once to take upon it the whole and sole charge of providing for the victualling of the naval forces, the construction and repair of ships of war, the outlays and application of all . money for the naval service, the dispensing it. to the different of that service, and the appropr i ation of the ent. duties He it s w h l o e u d l e d sums be ;m voted by yiate l)ar y aiisi.veenrta'bl fore to all whichtliam was aware that an o bj ec tion woul. l be taken by Hon. Members that it was too much to expect th a t a ll t h ese a duties should be performed by a single office. He asserted ln-g P. that it was not too much to hop e for if the distribution o f the labour required was proper and judicious.—(Loud cheers.) On this topic he should refer the House to what had been effected in a similar manner in respect to the ouud the e r Board of Ordnance, which was considered th e p a t tern Board, which had been similarly rem o d e ll e d, cont i nue d to work admirably in all its branches, and was the r es ult o f ouch c s luicacevs expectationai v v u I f(o,fr experiment,itvhee(i ssubject, tf,ieicttwhi H ch e was shid found to propose,answern , that to fiv e principal officers should be confided the duties of those Boards us they now stood. First, to tine Surveyor -General of the • N av y was to be confided the charge of the labour of the dock-yards, the building and repairing of ships; next, to the Accountant -General of the Navy was to be referred the charge of the accounts of the different branches of the service, rendering all those ac counts by double entry; to the storekeeper was to be en trusted the duty of providing all the greater articles for the use of the fleet; to the Superintendent of the Vic tualling Department was to be confided the duties now in cident to the 'Victualling Board ; and fifthly, to the Super intendent of the Medical Department was to be given the controul over, and inspection of, all the hospitals for the . - Lord SANDON declared himself to be as anxious as any Hon. Member in that House for the establishment of an effective controul, and under the influence of that anxiety he desired to know if there were any provision in the Bill enabling Maeistrates to remove nuisances ? Lord ALTHORP replied, that the powers which the Bill would imeart to the Privy Council were so ample, that it was needless to bestow further authority upon any functionary whatever. Mr. K. DOUGLAS doubted if there were any means in Scotland to rare any fund from the counties or parishes. The LORD ADVOCATE admitted that there would be consideiteble difficu ty in makine . any local assessments in Scotland, owing to the varied and ' diversified manner in which rates were enforced in that country, at the same time that lie confessed he was not at the present moment prepared with any proposition on the subject. Sir R. PRICE was much disposed to question if any eff ctive controul could be e-tablished over the money de rived free the public purse, for preventing the spread of cent-lion. It was his opinion that the merchants and landholders assembled in this great m• tropolis ought to contribute Lrgely for the purpose which it was the object of the Bill to effect. He greatly feared that if it were once understood that the nation at large were to defray the ex• pence of arresting the fearful calamity which then occupied their attention, the consequence would be a wasteful ex penditure. He also feared that the declaration made by a Right Hon. Gentleman near him (the Chief Secretary f.r Ireland) might iu too many instances be received as a dis tinct pledge that in all cases which might arise complet e remuneration would be made. In his apprehension there should be no remunerari , n unless a case of necessity were very clearly made out by the local authorities. Sir T. FREMANTLE agreed fully with those Hon. Members who thought that there would be great difficulty in obtaining assistance of an efficient character from the parish, or even the county rates. Mr. A. BARING said, that cases might occur which would he beyond the means of time parish rates ; and, on the other hand, if people in general, and esp.cially parish authorities, thought they could call indefinitely upon the Ch incellor of the Exchequer, they would make such a power a pretext fur burdening the nation at large with the expenses of maintaining their own poor. The arrange ment which he thought afforded the best chance of success was, that the immediate expense should he borne in those quarters where by law it ought properly to rest, • and where the means of the district proved indisputably insuf ficient; then, but nut till then, should the Privy Council interpose their aid. Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that though there had not been any previous communication between him and his Hon. Friend on the subject, yet there was not much dif ference in their s. ntiments. They need not go on argu ing extreme cases—it was enough that in principle there was no important d•fferenre between them. A clause might be introduced into the Bill, which would render it necessary that before any HUMS were issued under the sanc tion of the I s rivy Council, there should be a properly au thenticated certificate, setting forth that the charges sot4,ht to be defrayed were incurred for the prevention or cure of cholera, and were in their nature extraordinary, and had nothing to do with the usual maintenance of the poor of the district from which the application proceeded. To take an example, there was the parish of St. Paul's, Deptford ; that was a parish which the inhabitants of the eounty of Kent would naturally enough regard rather in the nature of a metropolitan than of a county parish, and he thought it evidently one of those cases which ought to be provided for out of the national funds. For his part, he did not at all see how it could be rendered imperative upon vestries to make the necessary provision, and he thought that precautions should be taken to avoid any thing like complex machinery. He was favourable to the Bill being read a second time that night, and before the tollowing day some improvements might be devised and •noved in the Committee. Lord ALTHORP was ready to acknowledge that many of the suggestions which Lad been thrown out in the course of the present conversation were worthy to be con •idered. He hoped that under the urgent circumstances ,f the case, the House would al!ow the Bill to be read a first and second time that night, and be committed on the 'ollowing day. He did not anticipate that it would be necessary to introduce any additional clauses. Mr. GOULBURN wished that, with as little delay as possible, some arrangem• nts should be made for making advances to the several parishes requiting aid, for the ne ..essity was too urgent to be trifled with. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and it was sought in accordingly and read a first time. On the question that it be read a second time, Mr. HUNT said he hid a question to put to the Noble Lord opposite.— (Cries of" Oh, oh.") Gentlemen would probably cry" Oii, oh," fast enough if they had the cho lera.—(A laugh.) He wished to know if it was intended that the Bill should he printed?—(Oh.) The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. _ Sir GEORGE CLERK, pursuant to notice, moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the expenditure upon certain .corks for the use of the navy at Sheerness, Ports mouth, and Plymouth. He observed that be had not in eluded in the Committee the Members of the late Admiralty Board, as it was his wish that that they should be examined as witnesses. —Motion agreed to. NAVAL ADMINISTRATION. Sir JAMES GRAHAM rose for the purpose of bring ing forward his motion on the subject of the Civil Admi nistration of the navy. The Hon. Baronet prefactd his 'notion with a few remarks, declaratory of his unwilling ness to take upon himself tre responsibility of interfering with the effective condition or the stability of the Navy of Great Britain ; at the same time he declared that he was willing to incur the responsibility of bringing forward, and pressing to ultimate completion, a measure which he believed was well calculated to advance the prosperity of the navy, and to rescue some of its most important branches from a condition into which they had fallen, and which was by no means calculated to do that department of the public urrice credit. In bringing forward his plan he was not actuated by any mistaken motives of specious economy, nor did ne intend to do any thing which could militate against their effective services, or which could diminish in any way the superiority of the British Navy. There were now, he need hardly observe, three Boards for the conduct of the naval affairs of the kingdom , viz. the Board of Admiralty, the Navy Board, and the Victualling Board, all emanating from his Majesty's autho rity, and subsisting only by his patent. It happened, however, that the most important of these Boards was so circumstanced, that the members of which it w is com posed were constantly being changed, as it w is looked upon to be necessary that, at every change of Administration, those mernbers of Government who sat at the Admi ralty Board should likewise vacate office with their col leagues. Although a power always existed in his Majesty to revoke the patents which lie had granted to the mein hers of the two minor Boards, yet it was riot looked upon as necessary to change their members on a change of Ad ministration ; and the r suit of this arrangement at length proved to be, that on any change of Administration there was a perpetual under-current of resist .nce made by the two minor Boards, the Navy and the Victualling, to the measures of the Bo ird of Admiralty ; an opposition which ultimately proved of grert detriment to the naval service of the country. With this divided responsibility and uncero tain authority over them, the two minor Boards became disobedient to the Board of Admiralty and, although that Board alone is responsible to Parliament for the conduct of the naval affairs, and possessed nominally supreme con troul over the two other Boards, yet the members of it found themselves thwarted and opposed by them in many important matters. This state of affairs was at length found extremely (lett imental to the public service, and the many reports on naval affairs would furnish numberless proofs of the successful resistance which the Naval and Victualling Boards offered to the measures of the Admi ralty. The Hon. Baronet had observed that he would riot take up the time of the House by entering on any elabo rate exposition of these evils ; but he would simply call their attention to the statement contained in the Me moirs of a former Secretary to the Admiralty, Mr. Pqlss who represents the Navy to be in a wretched state at the period when the Stuart family were again called to the throne of this realm, from which it was revived on the appointment of the Duke of York, afterwards James the Second, to the office of Lord High Admiral of England, the good effects of whose manage ment were very speedily visible, and from which period might be dated the commencement of that series of glorious triumphs by which the career of the British Navy was so eminently characterized. The House would be surprised to learn that the Admiralty, which it was supposed was the superintending and governing power over all the expenditure of the Navy of this country, was deprived of the controul which should be vested in it, by the manner in which the accounts were kept in the subordinate Boards ; insomuch so that were they in need of information as to the amount of expenditure in these departments, and reference was had to the books of the Navy Office, for instance, it would be almost, if not altogether, impossible to derive the desired information, because the b oks did not show under what heads of e xpenditure the money granted from time to time had been laid out. Hence it was vain in the Lords of the Admiralty to expect to exercise any controui over the possible misapplication of money in these Boards, naval service, both at home and abroad. These five would form the whole of the great officers for the civil department of the naval service. Great inconvenience was experienced at the present day from the officers and Commissioners of the Boards. He would fain abolish 'lidding these ap pointments by the same authority and upon the same tenure as those in the Admiralty, to whose controul it was sup posed they were always subject. He acknowledged he h made this attempt at alteration with some hesitation, lest it might he inferred that the officers to be appointed should hold their situations by a tenure too precarisus. This objection he proposed to remove by acquainting the House it was not his intention they should here after be liable to any change, or to be displaced, ex cept their conduct was dissatisfactory to the Board which presided over the whole. In this respect it would be superior to even the Board of Ordnance, which was now, on a change of Administration, lie le to experience, as a consequence, a change in its principal officers, though ma tured to the duties of that office by long experience. Here, however, that evil would cot he found to exist; for the principals, as well as other officers of the Bord lie would construct as the sole efficient Admiralty Board, would hold their offices permanently during good behaviour. In the present plan, they would observe, there would tie, in stead of four great officers, with the Chief, or First Lord of the Admiralty, five—one superintending each head of service, and having confided to him the complete manage ment of a public Board, with a secretary to take minutes of its proceedings. By this system of an undivided con troul, and by simplicity in accounts, which he held to be the life and soul of public business, he hoped ail rude would be obtained which the moat sanguine would desire. It would be, perhaps, objected that the effect of this change would be to create an addition to the placemen in that House. Considering how hard a battle he had fought to diminish the placemen of this Board formerly, it would be easily credited he was not insensible to this objection, when he had contemplated the inc.ease of their number, without intending to introduce a proviso that of the six, including the chief, no more should he cap ible of sitting i❑ Parliament than sat there already. He might now state, without vanity he hoped, what were the number of reductions he had made in this department of the public set vice within the last year, and also what would lie the number, should the House agree in his mutton, he would be able to reduce within the next three months ; and i❑ this sense he should be glad to give to the Right Hon. Baronet opposite a specimen of the gleaning of re trenchment with which he hoped he would be able to follow up hie harvest when the Right Hon. Baronet was in office, and he trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would offer no impediment to his project. Already there had b en four Commissioners reduced, having salaries amounting together to 4,000/. a year; together with 37 superior officer'', whose salaries were 9,4701., 25 inferior officers at 2,2851. per annum, and eight clerks at 1,970/.—(Loud cheers.) Under the prevent alteration he hoped to reduce within the next three months, with their permission, net less than five Commissioners, whose united salaries were 6,0001. per annum ; three Secretaries at 2,600/., 20 more superior officers at 10,9801. six inferiors at 440/., and 54 clerks at 11,9501. In this way there would be a saving to the public, effected since his accession, and a reduction in numbers of officers, accomplished to the extent, in all, of nine Commissioners, at 10,000/. a-year ; 66 superior officers, at 19,750/. a-year ; making altoeeti er a reduction, in amount of salaries, to the extent of 48,995/., or in round numbers of 49,000/ a year. He should imperfectly discharge his duty if, after having dwelt so much upon the misappropriation in past years of the votes of Parliament, of the supplies voted for the public service, he did not propose what he con ceived would be an efficient prospective remedy. From the opiniiin of the House, as he collected it the other night, there was no unwillingness in any quarter to accede to the arrangement that the financial year should determine upon the 31st of Manila, instead, as heretofore, upon the 31st of December. It was impossible, from the nature of the naval service, and the power of drawing money possessed by officers in different quarters of the globe, that the accounts could be audited up to that time. He con ceived that the practice of the Admiralty might be assimi lated, in this respect, to that of a merchant's counting house. He proposed that the Admiralty, as heretofore, should audit the Treasurer's accounts at the close of the financial year ; and, for the sake of passing his accounts, should certify as heretofore ; hut that audit was not to he an effectual audit, but only pro prina. The account, as far as the Treasury was concerned, was actually to he kept open until the 30th of No vember, thereby adopting so much of the French sys tem of accounts as was thought advisable. By the 30th of November all the vouchers would be returned home. He proposed that the Admiralty should be directed, upon the 30th of November, to transmit to the Board of Audit the account so made up and closed on the 31st of M och—that they should send the vouchers together with the account; and that it should be the duty of the Audit Board to lay upon the table of the House, upon the 31st of January each year, a balance sheet, certified by them, subdivided, according to the different heads of estimate ; stating, under each head, the supply and expenditure, and the surplus beyond the estimate. They would also attend with a statement of any errors that had been discovered, or any interrogatories that it might be necessary to put. It would be impossible, in the short period between the 30th November and the fat January, to administer a really effectual audit. He conceived that for all Parliatnentary purposes the audit he had proposed would be found to he effectu il. It converted the responsibility of the repre sentatives of the Government from a nominal to a real responsibility. It would be necessary to begin each year by an explanation of errors in the former account, and by answering interrogatories. The Hon. Member fur Middlesex would, he had no doubt, make good use ot this paper. He was not aware that he had any thing to add to the statement he had already made. The plan he had proposed reduced, to a great extent, a number of what he conceived to lie unnecessary offices—it reduced the public expenditure—it limited the number of placemen in the House ot Commons—it provided a more effectual controul over the expenditure of the public money—it afforded a more scrupulous adherence to the strict principle of ap propriation, as laid down by Act of Parliament—it was a redemption of all the pledges he had ever given on the opposite side of the House—it embodied all the principles for which he and his friends had contended. Notwithstanding all this, it he were not in his con science satisfied that it was well calculated to promote the good of the service, and the efficacy of the Navy, none of those considerations he had already stated should have induced him to bring it forward. But entertaining this opinion, he concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the business of the civil departments of the Navy, and to melee other regu lations for more effectually carrying on the duties of the same.—( Loud cheere.) Sir BYANI MARTIN said that the Hon. Baronet had made it clear to him that the plan he proposed was likely to produce public benefit. He had founded his plan upon the disobedient anti insubordinate conduct of the Navy Board, and their power to obstruct the public service. Now no opposition had ever been made to any orders of the Admiralty, except with the greatest respect, and from an honest desire to point out errors. His invariable rule had been, during the sixteen years he had served without interruption, to state his opinion frankly, and without fear. He had told the Board of Admiralty a hundred times— " Your decision is contrary to my opinion, nevertheless, I will endeavour to carry your wishes into execution." It was true, as the Hon. Baronet had stated, that the works at Woolwich had exceeded, by a considerable sum, the votes of Parliament, but those works were of a peculiar nature, and representations had been made that if the work had not taken place, the whole front of the wall would have fallen into the river. The practice invariably was to vote a gross sum. He would not enter into a detail of the sums called for by Mr. Rennie for the purpose of those works. The Hon. Baronet had fairly and candidly stated the cause of his (Sir Byam Martin's) being put out of office—it was because he had, in the execution of his duty, dared to speak his opinion to the First Lord of the Admiralty. Had he remained i❑ office, he never would have failed to have spoken his sentiments ; but when the Hon. Baronet charged him with wilful and perverse dis obedience, he utterly denied it. It was as unfounded an assertion as ever was made in the House. Every order to m dee reductions was scrupulously fulfilled. The Hen. Baronet wrote an angry letter to the N ivy Board, saying, Why did you not obey such order? The answer was, be cause it was never given. He could prove every charge of criminality to be untrue. It was stated to be a monstrous instance of mismanagement that it was not instantly die covered that copper had been taken from the stores, and that this arose from the want of a return of the number of stores. It would cost several thousand pounds to ascertain the amount—if it were done from time to time it would obstruct the whole duties of the year.—(Sir JAMES GRA HAM smiled.) When the Hon. Baronet had had his laugh out, he (Sir Byam Martin) would go on. The book of prices was under the eye of the Surveyor of the Navy, whose duty made him acquainted with the propriety of the charges, and the articles were regulated according to the market price. The Hon. Baronet's plan was made with a view to economy, and Live:looked more important mat ters. In his opinion the Comptroller of the Navy ought to have a seat at the Board of Admiralty, end not be subject to political changes. Who was to cluck the proposed enor mous expenditure of money, the Accountant-General or the Admiralty ? Was the Accountan'-Gcnrel to be sending messengers up and down the Strand with large sums of money, to obtain the sanction of the Admiralty ? A messenger might walk off with the money. Was the Surveyor of the Navy to be continued ?—(S:r James GRA HAM answered in the affirmative.) Then he (Sir B. Martin) asked why Sir Robert Se.ppings had been dismissed his Me • j e sty's service ? A more diligent, faithful, honest, public servant never existed. For 50 years he had devoted him self to the public service, and had now received notice of dismissal. His enemies were at work to prejudice him in the eyes of his superiors, but his name would be remote tiered and respected when those who had tradeced his dirt ' racter had sunk into insignificance. The country was in debted to him for saving thousands of lives. Other offi (-era feared a similar dismissal—the sooner they knew their fate the better. When the Bill was introduced he would give it an impartial and unprejudiced consideration—where he found it likely to promote the public interest, it should hive his cordial support, but where it was likely to have a contrary tendency, he must give it a decided op position. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN apologized to the Hon. Gemtleman who spoke last for not having risen before him. He had had a seat at the Admiralty Board for twelve years. Daring that time a vast number of changes had taken place, in which the Navy Board had not always gone along with him, but was bound to say that their opi nion was always honest and valuable. They had stopped those who, on first coming into office, had thought they coul I make improvements, and had prevented them from going too tar. It was right that the Admiralty should hove t'•at drag chain to impede its too hasty progress. He ex onerired the Navy Board from all blame as to not having obeyed orders, when the measures bad been properly in vestigated and decided upon. The Hon. Member then re ferred to the establishment at Weevil. It had been sug gested that, as the victualling department at Portsmouth was in various place., it might be concentrated at Weovil, and that arrangement received the sanction of the High Ad tuiral. It wee intended to sell the premises at Portsmouth to defray tie expense. The matter was mentioned in the House, and was nut objected to. Subsequently a part of the premises were taken for barracks, and consequently the expense was not defrayed. He was always a great ad vocate for uniting the Victualling and the Navy Board. H e thought that the auditing the accounts by the Commis sioners of Audits would attain all the objects which the Hen. Baronet proposed. These five officers would be the real executive officers of the service, but they would have no responsibility. If the Right Hon. Baronet compared his plan with the Ordnance plan, he would see that, in that particular, his plan wis a failure. These officers were to remain fixtures, whilst the officers of the Admiralty were changeable. Were the Right Hon. Baronet to carry his plans into execution, he would find, in the course of four or five years, that they would not work well; but he (Sir Gee rge Cockburn) would give his utmost attention to the Bill when it was brought in; and he would be glad if he should find his views were to prove erroneous. Sir THOMAS 'FROUBRIDGE felt it his duty to corroborate the statement made by the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Naval Administration of the country. Ile believed that the jealousy between the Navy Boatel and the Boatel of Admiralty had often proved detrimental to the public service ; and of this very many instances were upon record. He held in his hands a leti4fe 4 .vritten many years ago by Lord Rodney to the Earl of Chatham, which threw considerable light upon the sub ject. In this letter, extracts of which he would now read to :he House, Lord Rodney advised the Earl of Chat ham upon several important points. In the first instance, he gave his admonition to the Noble Earl never to suffer on inferior Beard to dictate to him what he ought to do, nor to permit any Admiral or Ciptain to dare to dispute or disobey any orders issued by the Lord High Admiral.—(A laugh.) He held the Navy Board to he an inferior Board ; it had never carried its point, and he trusted it never would. The Board of Admi ral y represented the King and the State, and all sub ordinate Boards should be under its contraul. The Navy Board ought to contract for all stores and to lay their ac counts before the Admiralty twice a year, for in their con tracts they might otherwise he influenced by friendship, or by private motives. Lord Rodney then proceeded to ad vise the Noble Earl that all the patronage should be kept in the hands of the Admiralty, for then all officers of high rank wenild look up to th it Board.—(A laugh.) " For God's s ,ke," said the Gallant Lord (Rodney), " never suffer your mind to be prejudiced against any officer till you are quite sure of the case—(Cheers) —and be always armed te•ainst any attempt to traduce a brother officer." He thought the letter, from which he had read extracts to the House, fully corroborated the whole statements made by the First Lord of the Admiralty, and he had, therefore, felt himself bound to read them. He should have another opportunity of stating his opinions upon the subject to the House, but he could not sit down without plying a tribute to his Majesty's Government. He thought that the Bill now brought in made reductions which fully re deemed die pledge that had been given by Ministers to the country. The head of the present Government was second to no man, and assisted as he was in the other House by the talents of Lord Bromtharn—(A laugh from the Opposi tion benches)—he was entitled to the general confi•lence. Sir G. CLERK said that as the changes now contem plated were of the greatest extent and highest importance. it was due to himself, and to the naval service, that he should require the fullest explanation of every particular. He felt it difficult to give any opinion upon a plan so ex tensive, and which had been introduced in such a manner to the House. He felt disposed to assist Government in all the details of their measures, although he thought that many of the details were calculated to increase the difficul ties they were meant to obviate, whilst others were alto gether iineractic.ble. He (Sir George Clerk) denied that the Admiralty Board was thwarted by other Boards. The Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the A lmiralty, had charged the Navy Board with not having expended, by nearly one million, the sums that had been voted to it; but he would ask the Hon. Baronet whether any of the naval arsenals had been found deficient of stores, and whether he wag not now availing himself of the money that had been saved, and was thus enabled to come down to the House with diminished estimates. There had been saved out of previous votes the sum of 1,000,0001. This the Hen. Baronet had found in the Exchequer. and with this he was carrying on the public service. Re ductions in the Kin's yards had been carried on to such an extent that the Hon. Baronet had been obliged to in ' crease the number of hours which the men were accus tomed to work. He conceived that it would he better to • consolidate the Navy and Victualling Boards, retaining the ; Comptroller and the Secretary to carry on the correspen dence. The Admiralty Board would not be able to carry • on the duties of the Navy an d Vi ctua lli ng B oar d s , eve n for one week, alth oug h t h e i mmense correspondence be tween the Victu a lli ng and Navy Boards and the Admiralty I would then be so much reduced. He did not think the details of the Hon. Baronet at all satisfactory, and they ought, in his opinion, to be investigated by a Committee. r He would ask, was it intended to dismiss Sir Robert Sep pings ? He supposed not, as be saw no provision for filling f up his place. i Here Sir J. GRAHAM nodded dissent across the table. Sir GEORGE CLERK continued. Sir Robert Sep pings was a person whose fame was known all over Europe, and all other nations had adopted his improve ments on naval architecture. He should be glad to find that it was the intention to retain Sir Robert Seppings in his office. There could he no objection, in his opinion, to transfer the audit of the navy accounts to the General Board of Audit, for at present the audit to which the accounts were submitted was a mere matter of form. The Hon. Baronet concluded by saying that he would willingly lend his support to the measure proposed for auditing accounts; but at the same time he must say say that he was afraid the reduced number of officers would not be able to transact the business. Captain YORKE Lore testimony to the great merits of Sir R Seppings ; and though his successor, Mr. Symonds, had constructed some vessels of great merit, be did not con , sider the Admiralty justified in the change they had made. Sir ROBERT PEEL was glad to hear of the redue' tions proposed by the Right lion. Baronet; they were certainly very extensive ; and if they could be carried into effect s they would do him greet credit. He could not go with him, however, in all his plans. He was ready to agree to one of hie pri,ciples, that, as the chief of tbr. department was answerable for the conduct of those under him, he should have the power of dismissing them or retaining them, accordita-; to his choice. Sr JAMES GRAHAM had laid it down that the chief officier should not have the power to remove those under him " quam diu se bens gesserit ;" that was hie principal. Sir ROBERT PEEL was ready to agree to the prin. cip'e that the power of the Admiralty should be exclu. sive; but, it the Right Hon. Baronet was to act on the principle he laid down, how did it happen that, under rt new Adnid:alty, Sir Robert Seppings and others had been removed, without any charge of blame ? Captain BERKELEY said the consolidation of the Admiralty and Navy 13 ,arcs would he regarded by the Navy as the greatest Wen. Mr. HUME eapteased his siaisfaction at the statemen t and pl in of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The new appeared to hint most excellent, and he believed would b e effective in reducing the exo.oditurr. Mr. CROKEII, after paying ever/ attention to t" ~ ' V .. ♦ \