The Sun. — London, England, 1832-01-20 00:00:00

roughs, but not limiting the time for taking the poll, or taking it in separate places. Now I have gone through the principal provisions of the Bill, and will leave the de tails for the Committee, in which they will be more pro perly discussed. Although I feel that his Majesty's Mi nisters have not shrunk from making deviations from the principles of the English Bill when it seemed necessary to depart from them, yet we have in no case done so, so as to make a distinction between the interests of Ireland and those of this country. We are far from wishing to make any such distinction, and from supposing that those inte rests were at •ariance with each other. We wish, by every possible means to cement and confirm those interests, as I am sure it is the wish of the heart of every man in this House who is a friend to the legislative union of th e t w o countries. To those views I have endeavoured to shape the Bill which I now beg leave to bring in. Mr. LEADER said, that there was one particular in the Government of Ireland in which Reform was as ne• c sisary as in any other part of the Government represen tation. In selecting the advisers of the Crown, it was necessary to choose men who were acquainted with the local interests entrusted to them, and not persons habi tuated solely to tie manners, the wants, and interests of another country. The Hon. Gentleman was understood to say, that the Secretary for Ireland was of the latter de scription, and that the Right Hon. Gentleman, in endea vouring to maintain the union of that country with Eng land, did not perceive that the true conservative link that should bind the two countries would be the full and equal representation of the people in hoth.—(Hear, bear.) He argued that the opening of the boroughs in Ireland would . . . . not diminish the proper influence of the Protestant consti tuen •y. Bat he did not think that Ireland 30 much demanded the opening of her close boroughs, as that her representation should be enlarged, so as to place it on an equal footing with that of England, in proportion to her territory, commerce, revenue, and population. She pos sess ssed twenty millions of acres, and the territory of Great Britain was no more than fifty-six millions of acres. Her population amounted to seven millions, and the inha bitants of Great Britain were no more than fourteen rail lions. The Hon. Gentleman then went into numerous and complicated statements, in which it was impossible to keep pace with him accurately; and then proceeded to sty, tia.t from all these particulars—from her houses, population, commerce, her imports and exports, and every thing which political economists look to in estimating the importance of a nation, he contended that she ought to have 161 Members, to place her representation on a fair footing in respect to that of England. The Noble Lord opposite, and every man around him, had as deep an interest as he had in the welfare of Ireland. —(1-fear, hear.) He was not one of those who at tached themselves to Unions, or stood up i❑ that House to attack others for their opinions.—(Hear.) His only wish, whenever he addressed the House, was to submit to its judgment the opinions which he entertained himself.— (Hear.) His object in rising now was only to show, by arguments drawn from official statements, that Ireland was a country too important to be slighted by the British Parliament, and that the interests of this country were bound up in her's.—(Hear.) He would appeal to any Gentlesnan who had ever been connect.-1 with the Govern mene of Ireland, whether it had not always been the great object of his (Mr. Leader's) exertions, to promote the re ciprocal good feeling of the people of both countries, and to improve their condition?—(Hear.) There was every thing in the present condition of Ireland to require that his Mai.sty's Ministers should take measures for the removal of the grievances which were loudly complained of, and to cultivate i❑ the people of that country a feeling of attach ment towards this.—(Hear.) Hg thought that, i❑ • justice, those counties which cantained a pipul ition above two hundred and fifty thousand, ought to have three _ _ Members. All the Irish Members who attended the meetings in Dublin agreed that that number ought to be required.—(Hear.) He did not complain of the able and lucid speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Ireland ; and he would leave his objections to that Gen•leman's arguments until the Bill should have gone into a Committee. For the present, he desired only to lay before the House those statements upon which he founded his demand for additional Members for Ireland. In doing so, he was influenced by considerations of duty alone, and not by any wish to embarrass the Government, or to offend either party in that House.—(Hear.) Mr. RUTHVEN had attended the meetings of the Irish Members in Dublin. He attended there to receive information as to the best manner of effectually serving his constituents, by his exertions in that Howe. The Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland had referred to the opinion of the Irish Parliament, as to the proportion which Ireland ought to have in the representation. But did not that Right Hon. Gentleman know that the late Irish Parlia ment was a body which ought not to be referred to as an authority on that subject especially? It consisted of a roost corrupt seta men, who sold themselves, and made the hest of the bargain, at the expence of their country's rights and happiness. Was the opinion of that body to he taken as a proof that Ireland ought to be content with a one-sixth share in the representation of the empire, of which her people constituted one-third of the population. —(Hear, hear.) In justice to that country, she ought to have thirty-two additional Members instead of five. The people of Ireland looked with confidence to his Majesty's Government for their fair share of the great gift of Par liamentary Reform. Through that Reform they hoped to obtain impartial justice; and he would tell the Govern ment, that unless they could make the people satisfied with the administration of the laws, and convinced that they received impartial justice, they never would succeed in potting an end to the agitation for a repeal of the Union. —(Hear.) With respect to the borough system of Ire land, be thought it would be the highest injustice in the Government to meddle with Old Sarum in England, if they abstained from destroying the sixteen or eightee❑ equally rotten boroughs of Ireland. These and other questions were, however, of too much importance to be entered into fully on that occasion; and he should there fore reserve what he had to offer on them for discussion when the Bill got into a Committee.—( Hear. ) Sir JOHN BURKE fully agreed with the data laid down by the Hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. Leader), when he required the Government to adopt the principle of givina: additional representatives to those counties which had 250,000 inhabitants. The Right Hon. Secretary had, in his opinion, not dealt out that measure of justice to the agricultural interests of Ireland which the Govern ment had thought it right to give to the agriculture of England in the Bill which distributed its representatives ; and he conjured him, therefore, to apply his candid and liberal judgment to that portion of the question ; for he was confident it would tend much to unite all parties in favour of his measure. Nothing could be less politic than to give the same number of representatives to the small counties of Longford and Carlow, as they gave to the great districts of Mayo and Galway. After observing that some alterati.in should take place in the method of taking the polls, and recommending that it should be by baronies or districts, for the purpose of diminishing the expence, the Hon. Member again pressed on the Government the necessity of re-considering their plan, and making some further concessions to the wishes of the Irish people for a more extensive representation. Mr. JOHN BROWNE, is the representative of Mayo, one of the hugest counties in Ireland, took occasion to im plore his Right Hon. Friend to take into his consideration the real condition of that country, and endeavour, if pos_ I sible, to deprive the agitators of the ground of their machi nations. There could be no question that the dispropor tions of the representation which were to be removed in England existed to a much greater extent in Ireland, and it was not, therefore, a matter of surprise that in the pre sent time the people of that country saw just reason to complain. in the county of Mayo there were 380,000 people, and yet it was to have the same number of repre sentatives as the smallest county in the kingdom. He could not, therefore, avoid approving of the data of the 'Member for Kilkenny, and he hoped they would meet with the attention they deserved.—( Hear. Sir R. INGLIS hail heard one expression fall from the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Stanley), which, he confessed, had a tendency to 611 him with serious alarm. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in speaking of the course he intended to pursue with respect to the freemen of corporate towns in Ireland, had observed, that he did not intend, as in Eng land, to preserve their rights to their descendants, because it would have the effect of perpetuating the race of Pro testant freemen, and it was desirable to get rid of the system under which they were created. He (Sir R. Inglis) knew that this was the language of the Govern ment, and not of the Right Hon. Gentleman him.elf, be cause he still recollected with gratitude the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1826 in defence of the Pro testant rights. As to the notice, however, of the designs of the Government, it was peculiarly alarming, for he hoped he would be spared any taunts of advocating bigotry, when he expressed an opinion that the best in terests of England were connected with the support of the Protestant interest in Ireland. He would not enter into any historical details, but he believed it was well known that the corporations were the nuclei round s which those interests were t r o rally. A great deal had been said of the of Protestants compared to the Catholics. l'is'oniwalihneuturinbielerstood, from the very o ybest t authority, that the new returns would g ive a proportion three millions of Protestants (that isEpiscopaLiasnosoacinod. Dissenters together) out of a population of d ~. This he believed, notwithstanding all that had been said to be the proportion ; and he need scarcely add, that the three millions contained much of the property and intelli gence of the country. Even, however, if the proportion was not so great, this was not the time nor the place, nor was the Right Hou. Gentleman the man to say, in pre paring his arrangements, that the Government were anx ious to get rid of the Protestant freemen of Ireland. The effect of this part of the Bill would be, he was confident, to destroy the only remaining link that connected the Pro testants of Ireland with the people of England. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN contended that the Hon. Member for Oxford had mistaken the expressions of the Right Hon. Secretary. What had been said was, that he wished to eet rid of the freemen because the system under which they were created perpetuated the system of exclu sion. The Hon. Member for Oxford had probably not enjoyed the advantage of having visited Ireland, or he would at elections, and particularly in the city of Dublin, have seen scores of Protestant freemen made for no other purpose than to exclude the Catholics. He had thought it right to my thus much, because the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to him fair and reasonable, although he admitted it would not prove quite satisfactory. In his opinion the proportions of representation should be so far preserved, that if Scotland got eight new Members, Ireland should have seventeen. As to the plan of taking the polls by Baronies, he apprehended it would prove still more expensive than the practice of holding the election in the county town ; but he hoped that there would be a better system of registration introduced, as the assistant Barrister's had so much power in rejecting votes, that if they were permitted to retain it, all the advantage of the Bill would be lost. Sir GEORGE WARRENDER, so far from agreeing with the Hon. Member, that if Scotland got eight Mem bers Ireland should have seventeen, could scarcely believe the Irish Members were capable of making out a case for the additional five which they were to receive. If any one could prove that the interests of Ireland were inade quately represented, he might change his opinion ; but when lie found that the eloquent pleadings of the Member for Waterford (Sir John Newport) had power, when backed by the Members for Preload, to procure the ad mission of Irish grain and Irish agricultural produce duty free, during the whole of the time the landed interests of England were burthened with the property tsx, he did not think it could be said that the interests of Ireland were not fmirly represented and supported. The question of a proportion was not between Ireland and Scotland, but between Ireland and Great Britain. That proportion had been solemnly settled at the Union, and he thought that it was too soon (at the end of only thirty years) to disturb it. The case of Scotland stood on different grounds. That settlement had existed for 130 years, and he had listened with great pleasure to the eloquent speech of the Lord Ad. vocate, which proved how unjust were the principles on which it had been concluded. The Hon. Member then proceeded to mention Dundee, Paisley, Aberdeen, and va rious other places of rising wealth and population, which were entitled to more than one Member according to the principles of the Hon. Members opposite ; and observed, that the debate of that night would afford a great stimulus to all patriotic Scotehmen to urge with tenfold ardour their claims for additional representation. As to Ireland, ' there was nothing in its compact with England, or in the circumstances of the case, which gave it the slightest pre tensions even to the five additional Members now about to be bestowed on it. Mr. SHELL said that the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. War render) had compared Ireland with Scotland, while Ire land compared herself with England. The comparison should he between the two countries with England. The Hon. Baronet had intimated that Ireland was concluded or estopped by the Union. Pray was there not an estoppel of his own country, of Scotland, by her Union in 1706 ? --(Hear.) His argument was exceedingly Irish in favour of Scotland. He concluded that because Scotland had got eight Members, Ireland ought to have no additional Mem bers ; and he in the same breath relied upon the Union, which applied to one country as well as to the other. But he (Mr. Sheil) would reserve his observations on this part of the case for the motion which he should give notice of for to-morrow, which would bring the rights of Ireland distinctly before the House. One word respecting the Hon. Member for Oxford (Sir R. Inglis.) The Member for Wicklow had stated that he had never been in Ireland. What a mistake ! Why, the Hon. Baronet (though few people were aware of it in Dundalk) had once been Mem- her for Dundalk—(Laughter)—of course he must needs have had a very close connection with that important town. By the way, the representatives of Dundalk stood in singular order; there was Mr. Barclay, the brewer, whose name appeared so conspicuous on so many posts, in the splendid intimation of " Barclay's Entire ;" there was a Colonel Cradock, who, he believed, never had seen Dundalk in his life ; and there was, though last not least, the present Honourable Member, who cer tainly had seen it, because there was scarcely a part of Ireland with which he was not familiar. The Honour- Ale Baronet said there were 3,000,00 A of Protestant, in Ireland. Where did he find them ? Did he see them in the town of Dundalk, when he was its Member, the data from which this inference was to be drawn ?—(Laugh ter.) He suspected that he must have seen it in the ga zette of orthodoxy and of loyalty, the Dublin Evening Mail. He saw some calculation of this kind of these 3,000,000 in buckram in that journal, which is certainly the organ of a strong party in Ireland. But the Hon. Baronet should take courage from his own statement, and not be so readily cast down by the mere proposition of admitting the Catholics to the rights of citizenship in Ireland. With his 3,000,000 at his back, what need he fear ? He told them that the Protestants constituted the wealth and intelligence of Ireland ; if so, why dread so much the poor and ignorant Catholics?—(Hear, hear.) Aye, says the Hon. Baronet, but we must keep up the Protestant ascendancy in Ireland, and that can only be done by shutting out the Catholics from civil power ; for such was the only meaning which his words bore. Did the Hon. Baronet fear for the Protestant interest in the House of Commons? Surely he did not stand in need of the Protestant freemen, with his millions at his back. The case of the freemen is simply this : the 40s. free holders were to counterpoise the freemen, and the one being removed, the other must pass away. A little nursery of faction was not to be maintained in every corporation. Who are the men who call on the Government to maintain this offensive ascendancy ? Men, who sleep on in their dreams of domina tion with the broad day-light about them—(Loud cheers)—men who conceive that Ireland should be governed in 1832 on the same principles of misrule as half a century ago. What claim have they on the Eng lish people? They are arrayed in hostility to their rights. —(Cheers.) But even if he admitted that Catholic in fluence was to be increased, what inference unfavourable to Reform could be deduced from that hypothesis ? Had the fourteen Roman Catholics in the House (there were no morel acted such a part, as to justify the imputation on them ? Had they proved that slavery was a part of their religion ? Why should they commit a trespass on the estate of which they were joint tenants? Here I stiud (said the /lon. Gentleman), a Roman Catholic before you, once, indeed, banned and degraded, with the doors of this House closed ignominiously against me ; but now (and I speak it with equal gratitude and exultation), though inferior in station and in faculty to most of those around me, I feel that I stand on the m ijestic and lofty level of British citizenship—(Loud cheers)—to all constitutional intents, and for all political pur poses, the equal of the best and proudest of you all ; and shall I, madly and perversely, all Roman Catholic as I am, commit upon my own rights an insane suicide?— (Cheers.) Bot, away with these distinctions ! let the words Catholic and Protestant be heard no more ; and if it be wise and well to commit the sacred rancours of theology to ob livion, shall we Hot bury in the same profound forgetful• ness those jealousies which we lay to provinciality for more than to genuine patriotism ? Or, if we must re. member on which side of the Channel we were born, let it be in order to do complete justice between countries, and build the common greatness upon the imperishable fabric of their everlasting concord.--(Cheers.) But has this injunction been followed? Has justice been done to Ire • land ? He thought not. On what principle did the G wernment go ? They had stated none. Taxes and houses were to regulate the borough representation; population the county representation ; by what stan dard did they mean to regulate the proportions be• tween the two countries ? But he would reserve re marks on this head until to-morrow. The Hon. Member went on to contend, that the forty-shilling tenants in fee in Ireland should be allowed to vote ; and he reprobated the notion of giving two Members to the University of Dublin, which is only famed for its taciturnity, and was known as the silent sister in the family of science. It was a mere sacerdotal corporation, and it was monstrous to giv e it two Members, while Kilkenny had only one. Mr. CROKER said, that although he perfectly agreed with those Hon. Members, that to the details of this treasure the most attentive consideration must be given in the Committee, yet he saw, in the very denunciation of thsotserondgetaailnsdbycotgheen Rightcogent argument Honourable againstthe whole the Chief principleSeLretary, a of the proposed Reform. The details of the Bill moved for by the Right Hon. Gentleman would,ercompa.ratlively speaking, be of little consid era ti on , if i t an insulated measure. But they we re going e to a s s h l a n ife e tre whole fabric of the Constitution of the Empire ; they were going to leave nothing in England, nothing in Scotland, nothing in Ireland, nothing in Wales, unchanged. And yet Ireland and Scotland had the mortification of finding that although everything was to be changed, the changes would be unproductive to thou of any important advan tages. It was impossible to deny the validity of the argu ment of the Hon. Members for Irel ind, that, taken with reference to the English Bill, the Irish Bill did not pro pose to do anything for Ireland. They asserted, justly, that his Majesty's Ministers had employed the best mathe matician', the ablest philosophers of the new light to ap. portion the representation of England ; that they were going to give to some counties in England two, to some three, to some four representatives ; that the whole Eng lish measure was to proceed on the principle of popula tion ; and that, nevertheless, many counties in Scotland and in Ireland, the population of which was larger than the population of counties in England to which it was proposed to give an increase of Members, were to have no increase whatever. The county of Cork, for instance, had a population which, he be lieved, exceeded a million ; he had never heard it esti mated at less than six or seven hundred thousand. The county of Cork, however, was to have but two Members. While the county of Cumberland, the whole population of which did not exceed one hundred and sixty thousand, was to have four Members. Undoubtedly, the refusal to give the county of Cork an additional number of Members was contrary to the principle of the English Bill ; and the Hon. Members for Ireland had a right to complain of it, and to say, " Let us be treated equally and fairly ; let the principle which you apply to Cumberland and other English counties be applied to Cork and other Irish coun ties." It was true, unfortunately, there was no Member for Cork in the Cabinet, or the interests of that county would probably have been better attended to. But although there was no Member for Cork in the Cabinet, there were Irish Members in that House who showed they were per fectly able to plead the cause of their country, with a force of argument which he (Mr. Croker) considered to be un answerable. The Hon. and Learned Member for Milborne port had, in speaking of the University of Dublin, rather ungratefully sneered at the taciturnity of " the silent sis ter." But however silent, she had certainly done much to remove from herself the reproach, by the education of in dividuals she had sent forth, and who, in that House, had by no means retained that character. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself had derived all his earlier knowledge from that University. He (Mr. Croker) re mensbered the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's making his debut as an orator in that University, when he gave the promise of ability which he had since so completely made good. He undoubtedly, however, agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that if the University of Dublin was to have an additional Member, there could be no reason for confining the elective franchise to the Fellows and Scholars. He did not see why the same rule as in England ought not to he followed; and why Masters of Arts should not be qualified to rote. Adverting to the population as the proposed basis of the Reform, he (Mr. Croker) was of opinion, that before entering into the de tails of the measure, the House ought to be in possession of full and accurate statements of the fact ; and it was therefore his intention to move, before the second reading of the Bill, fur returns of the population of Ireland as compared with the population of England and Scotland. Mr. STANLEY observed across the table that returns of that nature were in preparation, and should be laid on the table of the House. Mr. CROKER was glad to hear it, and had no doubt that the returns would be laid on the table of the House, the day after th e d e b a t e on t h e Bill. Th at, howev e r ' would be better tha n i n th e l as t S ess i on , w h en there were two or three debates on the measure without any return at all. If the returns arrived in time, be should not make his motion. The House and the country ought to follow the advice which had been given by an Hon. Member, and to look at the subject as an imperial question; but he was sure that the mere declaration of Ministers, that no addi tional Members were necessary for Ireland or Scotland would not be considered satisfactory by those countries. He could not in his conscience (enemy as he was to the principle of change which pervaded the proposed Reform) say that it ought to be so. When, by the English Bill, a new and interminable scene of claims of right had been opened to the people, it was not to be expected that any portion of the people would allow those claims and de mands of right to be limited or rejected merely by the sic volo of a Minister. It would be much more statesman like, and much more satisfactory, if Ministers, on the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair on the English Bill, were to state at once what was their final resolution with respect to the representation of Ireland and Scotland. If he (Mr. Croker) understood that the vote with respect to the English Bill was to be conclusive with respect to the claims of Ireland and Scotland, he should certainly give that vote with very different sentiments and with very different expectations from those which he should entertain if he understood that those claims were still left open to consideration. In his opinion, it behoved every Scotch and every Iri.h Member, before he consented to disfranchise a single English borough, or to enfranchise a single English town, or to divide a single English county, distinctly to understand that satifactory justice would be done to Scotland and Ireland. It was impossible nut to be sensible, from the great disquietude which the general proposition of his Majesty's Government had created in the country, that if their plan with respect to England were carried into effect, it would be indispensable to in crease the number of Members for the other parts of the empire. Sir R. INGLIs and Mr. SHELL explained. Lord ALTHORP observed, that the present was not a fit time for discussing the details of the Bill which his Right Hon. Friend had moved for leave to bring in. He could not help, however, remarking, that when the Right lion. Gentleman who had just spoken attributed the various claims and demands of increased representation to the measure which had been brought in by his Majesty's Government, and stated that those claims and demands had no previous existence, he was in a great error. The wish for Parliamentary Reform was very far from arising for the first time when Ministers submitted the subject to the consideration of Parliament; it existed and had frequently been manifested long before. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that Ministers, in moving the Committee on the English Bill, should state unequivo cally the number of Mern'iers which it was their intention ultimately to propose for Scotland and Ireland. He (Lord Althorp) would again state, that it was the determina- , tion of Ministers to abide by the number of Members which they had already proposed for Scotland and Ireland ; and that they would endeavour to persuade the House to agree to that proposition. It had been asserted that his Right Hon. Friend had said something against the Pro testant interest in Ireland. He (Lord Althorp) was not aware of anything of the kind. All that his Right Hon. Friend had said was, that the system of perpetuating free men in Ireland—they being in general sectaries—was a vicious one. The Hon. Member for Downpatrick had also laboured under a misapprehension, in supposing that iu what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend he meant to allude to the part which that Hon. Gentleman had taken on the subject. He could assure the Hon. Mem ber for Downpatrick that that was not the case ; and he (Lord Althorp) would add, that from what he had seen of the conduct of the Hon. Member for Downpatrick in that House, if any observations derogatory to him hail been made, they would have been much misplaced. He would not then go into the question of the fit number of Members for Ireland. But he certainly did not think that because the representation of England was apportioned by one rule, the same rule must necessarily be observed with respect to the other portions of the empire. Other circumstances ought to be taken into considera tion. The general state of each country ought to be re garded ; and it ought to be ascertained whether that country was so represented that its interests did not suffer in that House. Now, on looking back, he must say that Irish questions had been most ably supported in that House. The population was in a very different state in many parts of Ireland from that in which it area in former Ireland mightcountry. b 0 c o Indeed nsid e r e d the a s having nutnbe r be e of n England ; and there were other ci rcumstances which did not recommend any great increas e o f t h e num b er of for for the settled so short a time ago as thirty-two years ; and any change was unnecessary, and uncalled fo r b y j ust i ce. He hail always felt the strongest interest for the prosperity of Ireland, although in no way whatever con necte d with that country ; and he had always felt that no Member of that House did his duty unless he considered the prosperity of Ireland as inseparably associated with the pr osper i ty of the empire at large. At the present moment, he was happy to say, that however they might lament the di s t ur b ed feel ing which existed in Ireland, the wealth of that country was evidently increasing. In England, the E xc i se duties during the last year had fallen off; in Ireland they had in creased. This was a proof of the improved condition of the middle and lower classes ; and another proof was, that there had been a considerable augmentation of de posits in the Savings' Banks in Ireland. With respect to other circumstances by which the tranquillity of I re l and was threatened, he trusted that they would he put d own ; and he was persuaded that to so intelligent and a ct i ve a many want other materials peoPlep of prosperity,ossessedof aso tranquillityso fe rt ile,waansd allofthat so ing for the improvement of their state. Mr. GOULBURN observed, that when the N o bl e Lord adverted to the question why the same proportion was not observed in the proposed represeatation for Ireland ' as in the proposed representation for England, he asked the affairs of Ireland bad been badly attended to in that House. Why, was not that the argument of those who opposed any meddling with the representation of England ? And how had their argument been met? By a reference to population, to the number of houses, to the amount of taxation. Yet, when the Irish gentlemen appealed to the same principles, the Noble Lord took refuge in the argument resorted to by the opponents of the English Bill, and expected that the Irish gentlemen would be satisfied with it ! There could be no doubt that, upon the principle of the English Bill, Cork and Galway were entitled to an increase of representation. The argument to that effect was unanswerable. If the House agreed to the English Bill, they could not justly resist the claims of Ireland ; and if they did resist those claims, they would be brought forward, year after year, with additional force. He dis claimed the opinion that the representation of Ireland ought to be increased ; but Government had opened the subject, and the Irish had a right to complain if they were not treated with equal justice. If the English Bill might be justly characterised as leading to revolution, might not the Irish Bill be justly characterised as leading to im mediate discord, and to the ultimate separation of the two countries? Into the details of the measure he would not then enter, reserving himself for a future occasion. Mr. F. W. MULLINS said he had neither the wish nor intention to trespass on the attention of the House at any length, but he felt he would be doing an injustice to his country, to his constituents, and to his own convic tions, were he to refrain from expressing his decided dissatisfaction with the measure of Reform proposed for Ireland by the Right Honourable Secretary. He (Mr. Mullins) was well aware that it would not satisfy the people of Ireland. they had reason to hope that many important alterations and improvements would be made in their Reform Bill, and that England would at length see the policy of conciliating feelings, which force could never conquer, by giving Ireland its due proportion of the advan tages about to be conferred by Reform on Great Britain.— (Hear, hear.) Bat such, he regretted to find, was not the case, and the consequences, he feared, would be most serious. He (Mr. Mullins) well knery how great would be the disappointment of the people of Ireland, and he would venture to assert that no individual who considered the present convulsed state of that country—east, west, north, and south—with the calmness, deliberation, and impartiality which the importance of the subject demanded, differed from him in the anticipation of the frightful re sults which the insufficiency of the proposed measure paved the way for.—" Hear, hear.) The people of Ire land naturally expected a further increase in the repre- sentation—a greater extension of the elective fran chise in counties, and an alteration of the present much faulted system of registry.—(Hear.) They were not unreasonable—they sought not more than they were justly entitled to—but not one of these important conces stuns and improvements had been made ; however, there was still time for amendment, and be called upon the Right Hon. Secretary, as he valued the permanence of the Legislative Union, as he valued that which is at all times the characteristic of a good Government— justice, to revise the measure of Reform for Irel !rid, about to be introduced to-night, before it went into Committee; otherwise, no person acquainted with the present state of Ireland could avoid foreseeing the commencement of a reign of terror in that unhappy country, which in the end might possibly lead to results equally disastrous and irremediable. He again called upon his Majesty's Ministers to re-consider the measure, and sincerely trusted they would see the ex pediency of making those alterations which justice de manded, and the people of Ireland looked to, as the only means of securing the happiness, tranquillity, and pro sperity of that country.—(Hear, bear.) After an explanation from Lord ALTHORP, leave was given to bring in the Bill. REFORM BILL—SCOTLAND. The LORD ADVOCATE slid that in rising, pursuant to his notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the representation of the people of Scotland, it was not his intention, nor, he was sure, would the House expect him, to enter into any detail on the subject ; because it must he in the recollection of every one that towards the close of the last Session, and on the second reading of the then measure, he had summed up all that it had ap peared to him to be necessary to say on that which was almost identically the same Bill as the Bill for which he was about to have the honour of moving. In principle there was no alteration whatever ; nor was there any change in the details calculated to raise a dif ference of opinion on the two propositions. In the for mer Bill the town of Port Glasgow had been united to Greenock ; it was now intended that it should be sepa rate. The way in which the other boroughs were grouped remained the same. With regard to the qualifi. cation for franchise, there was no difference whatever in tke new Bill with respect to counties ; and hardly any with respect to boroughs—merely such as to render the measure in some degree conformable to that for Eng land. There was another little difference with respect to the working part of the Bill. Instead of the former mode of adjudication, a new tribunal was to he formed of three Sheriffs, who were to visit the various counties with the least possible delay, in order to review the registration of votes. Such were the slight points in which the proposed differed from the last Bill. The Learned Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill. Sir C. FORBES observed that the purpose professed by the Bill was to amend the representation of the people of Scotland; while its real object seemed to be to pull that representation to pieces. They were like tinkers, who in mending one hole made six. The former Bill was so hurried through the House, that the people of Scot! Ind did not understand it ; but they had afterwards come to understand it, and they had most serious objections to it. They had shown this by petitions to Parliament, and by Addresses to the Throne. In Particular they objected to the manner in which the county representation was regulated. They objected to the franchise for counties; they would not have cared if it had been carried much lower, so that the present principle had been preserved, instead of the uniform plan of the Learned Lord. That plan would give rise to much trouble, diffi culty, and dissatisfaction. Besides, it was a positive rub bery of the just and legal rights of the proprietors. 'The freeholders held their qualifications by a title t hat was as good as that by which the landlords of England owned their land. It was a gross injustice to take that from them without compensation, and they had as good a right to compensation for their superiorities as if their land were taken away to form a road or a canal. The Bill was a revolutionary measure, which would ruin the country. Captain GORDON did not wish to discuss the Bill, but to ask the Learned Lord on what principl e it was founded. He saw small boroughs in England preserving their two Members, while large counties in Scotland had only one. He wished the Learned Lord would tell him why the same principles were not applied to Scotland as to England ? Sir G. WARRENDER bad experienced great disap pointment at learning that no addition was to be made to the number of Scotch representatives ; with respect to compensation, that was out of the question, and the only compensation that be would ask for or wish, was an in crease in the number of Members, to defend the interests of Scotland. To that Scotland had a right. Looking to the great increase in her wealth, her commerce, and her population since the Union—looking at the great commu. nities which had grown up there, he thought they had right to representatives. He was a Member for an English borough, yet had he been often obliged to get Bills through the House fur those communities. He thought Scotland had a right to additional Members for the great revenue she gave to the State, and the small expence she caused. She yelded five millions to the Crown, and cost only a few hundred thousands. Such was her state of peace and prosperity, that she was governed at a very small expence. In England there are several small boroughs which were allowed to return two Members, while in Scotland there were counties with a population of 200,000 that had only one. That was not fair. He made these remarks out of no spirit of hostility to Reform, and certainly out of no spirit of hostility to his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. CUMMING BRUCE regretted to see that this Bill contained the same principles of spoliation as the last Bill, and the same principle of uniform franchise. He would not, however, then discuss its provisions, but only declare that he agreed with other Hon. Members i❑ saying that Scotland was not fairly treated, and had not got a due portion of Members. Mr. GILLON entered his protest against the claim for compensation put in by the Hon. Baronet. He was not aware that any freeholders of Scotland had made such a claim, except a few in Argylesiiirc, who were inimical to t h e Bill. He had heard of no such claims except from persons interested in keeping up the present system. Those persons who purchased superiorities purchased them to job with there, and they had jobbed with them in a most disgraceful manner. He could not agree that Scotland was dissatisfied, and he appealed to the meetings which had taken place there, at which such feelings were not ex pressed. He would not enter into any defence of the mea sure, but must repeat his protest against the claim for compensation. Sir G. MURRAY could not remain wholly silent when a measure of so much importance was brought forward affecting his country. The feeling of alarm and apprehen sion had increased in Scotland, and great danger, it was conceived, would result from the introduction of the Inea sure. The greater part of4he people of property there, Who from their intelligence were capable of judging of the effects of a complicated measure, were decidedly of opinion that this measure would be very dangerous. The measure was one of innovation ; it was upsetting and altering the Constitution of the country, and in doing that, at least all parts of the empire ought to be fairly treated. According to the principles of the Bill, however, Scotland was not fairly treated, and was not adequately represented. He concurred in opinion with those gentlemen from Ireland, who complained that Ireland was unjustly dealt with ; and so was Scotland. Why were the principles which were applied to England, not applied to Scotland and Ireland 7 He did not approve of those principles; he thought it dangerous to legislate on general principles; but in adopt ing them, they ought to he carried fully into effect, and be extended equally to all places. Small boroughs were en franchised in England, while two representatives were denied in Scotland to counties containing a large popu lation. Ireland and Scotland had both ample cause for complaint that the number of their representatives was not increased. The Noble Lord, the Chancellor of the Exche quer, said be did not see why the same principle should he applied to Scotland and Ireland as to England ; but he asked why they should not? The people of those parts of the empire were not conscious of any inferiority, and claimed that the same principles should be applied to them as to England. Would the Noble Lord point out in what the difference consisted, that different principles should be applied to them ? The new Members that were given to Scotland, too, were all given to the commercial interests; but were the agricultural interests of Scotland deserving no increase? There was no part of the empire where agriculture had made greater progress, or wars conducted with more skill and more science than in Scotland. The agriculturists, then, had as good a claim to an increased representation as the commercial classes. He objected, also, to the mutilation of counties. Why were the boun daries of Scotch counties to be altered ? Why was a piece to be cut off from Perth to add to Clackmannan ? At present Perth was a perfectly independent couuty. Was a piece of it, then, to he cut off to make it dependent on some great family, or on some oligarchy. He agreed with those Hon. Members who said that they could not look upon these three Bills as distinct measures, but all as forming parts of one whole measure. He regretted that the discussion was taken on three Bills ; for that led last session to the neglect of the Scotch Bill. Gentlemen attended at divisions; but they did not attend to hear the arguments that were advanced in favour of Scotland, and in support of her interests. On this account he could not wait to express his opposition till the second reading of the Bill. He must oppose it—beginning at the very first step, because the second step would be an act of injustice towards Scotland, and the third step an act of injustice to wards Ireland.—(Hear.) Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that Scotland ought to receive a greater number of Members, and he disagreed with the Hon. Member (Mr. Gillon), who said that Scotland was satis fied. Scotland was not bound to he satisfied ; it was not just that she should be satisfied. He complained that this Bill increased the number of Members for England twenty.three more than the last Bill, while it gave no increase whatever to Scotland. He did not grudge Eng land her number of Members, but lie claimed for Scotland an equal proportionable share. The present measure was to effect a great, a complete change in the representation, and Scotland, as a part of Great Britain, was entitled to l a a n n d e Members now reserved for the English small boroughs, q w ua o l u s ld har o e nl o y f in re ju p r r e ese t ra h t e ati m on e . aur T e h . e p T a h rt e ia t l w it) e t n t ty o - E th n r g e; would have been more appropriately given to represent counties of Scotland and Ireland. Scotland was not satis fied with her share of representation at the Union. That was brought about by corrupting the Nobles, and Scot land was unjustly treated. That injustice might now be repaired. Admitting that justice was done to Scotland at the Union, which he denied, the great alteration which had since taken place in her condition would make a great increase in her representation necessary. At the period of the Union, the account of her revenue to that of Eng land was only as 1 to 35 ; but she now paid as much as Ito7or 8. On the very lowest calculation, she might at least claim to have sixty representatives under this Bill. He objected to giving two representatives to small bo roughs, while only one was given to the largest and wealthiest county of Scotland. One additional representative also had been given to Wales, without any sufficient reason. Wales, with 700,000 people, was to have as great an ad dition of llembers as Ireland, with nearly eight millions. It was said that there were many advantages in giving two Members to the boroughs ; but why, then, not allow the counties to have those advantages? If it were thought advisible to give such a place as Brighton two Members, why not give to Lanark, with 250,000 people, a similar share in the representation ? He was not of opinion that two Members should be given to each place ; he thought in many cases one enough ; but as the Bill gave more than one to small and unimportant boroughs, why not give two to all places of greater wealth and importance? He did not object to England having five hundred Members, but he roust say, while England had five hundred, and Scot land only the number allowed by this Bill, Scotland ought not to be satisfied. He objected to any compensation for superioritiea. In his opinion, however, representation should be based on property or means, or property which would insure independence, or on means, by the exercise of industry, of insuring subsistence and independence. He approved of that part of the English Bill which con firmed to freemen all the rights which they inherited as their birth-right. Freemen were allowed to retain their votes, though they had no property; there were no supe riorities in Scotland, altogether without property, and therefore he would suggest to the Learned Lord, and strongly recommend, that the principle adopted with re gard to the freemen should be extended to the superiority holders in Scotland. The superiority was not wholly di vided from property ; he denied, as the Learned Lord had formerly stated, that there were any such things as needy superiority holders in Scotland. Certainly he would take care no superiorities should be separated to make votes hereafter; but preserving those now in existence would, he thought, do no harm, if he thought preserving them would preserve the present right of voting, which was the most abominable system that ever existed. But as the situation of the freemen would render their votes of little importance, so would the extension of the franchise in Scotland so dilute the superiority holders as to render them no longer mischievous. He would not allow the superiority to be separated from property—he would con fine the franchise to the superiority united to property, but, preserving that union, he would preserve the rights of the present holders of superiorities. lie was satisfied with the principles of the Bill ; he would give them his most cordial support; but he hoped, at the same time, the Learned Lord would take into consideration the suggestion he had thrown out, which would only make the principles of the Bill more efficacious. Mr. HUNT could not avoid congratulating the Noble Lord and Hon. Gentlemen opposite, particularly the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Secretary for Ireland,) and the Learned Lind who had brought forward the present mo tion, at the great unanimity which prevailed amongst the Scotch and Irish Members against their respective'Bills. Not one Member, he believed, from Scotland or Ireland had spoken, who had expressed himself satisfied with these Bills. One Member, indeed, said the people of Scot land were satisfied, but even he wanted one Member more. Ho could not also avoid reminding the Hon. Member for Kirkcudbright that he was not now satisfied with the Bill, tbough the Hon. Member, when he had formerly stated, from his own sources of information, that the people' of Scotland were not satisfied with the Bill, assured the House that there were not three persons iu all Scotland not favourable to the Bill.—(A laugh.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex said the same.—(A laugh,) (Mr. HUME would say so now.) Then the Hon. Member would contradict all the statements made t:-night by the Members for Scotland, which he heard with satisfaction, because they confirmed the statement he had formerly made to the House. lie asserted that Ire land would be dissatisfied, and that Ministers must he aware that do what they would they could not give satis faction to certain parties there. Unless they gave a place of some sort to the Hon. and Learnel Member for Kerry they must have a separation.—(Hear, and a laugh.) As for himself he had always been for separation, and was con vinced they would have it if they did not give something to the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry. Mr. KENNEDY denied that the people of Scotland were dissatisfied and disappointed with this Bill. On the contrary, he could assure the House that the people of Scotland not only were satisfied with the Bill, but that they were impatient, if lie might so say, for the enact ment of it.--(Hear, hear.) Those who said that the people of Scotland were dissatisfied with the Bill, were those who would be dissatisfied with any Bill of Reform, and who were opposed to Reform altogether.—(Hear, hear.) Believing this, he looked with distrust, and be might almost say, with indignation, at the clamour that had been raised by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side for an additional number of Members for Scotland. He cautioned the supporters of the Bill against this cry, for he was sure that those who raised it would not pledge themselves to vote for the Bill if the additional Members were given. Indeed, be was certain that the giving of these additional Members would embarrass the Govern. ment, and would be made the means of embarrassing them, as there must then be a remodelling of the propsied Ivstetn. The measure was calculated to produce great advantages, and be, therefore, most heartily wished to ace it passed into a law, and would give it his support with out quarrelling with the minor details because they might not be absolutely perfect. An Horr. MEMBER said, that under the new system Scotchmen would be excluded from that House, except so fir as they represented places in Scotland itself. He thought, therefore, that the number of Scotch Members ought to be increased, in order to place Scotland o n the same basis with England. Acting on that principle, he thought that Scotland would be entitled to at least sixty Members, but he believed that this Bill proposed to give only fifty Members for Scotland. Mr. HUME said that it appeared to him that the charge made by some Hon. Members against this mea sure was its greatest recommendation—he meant that it effected a total change in the system of Stotch represen tation. He said so, because he thought that nothing could be worse than that system. He was always aware that it would not satisfy all parties in Scotland, but it satisfied the majority, because it would be productive of benefit to the country. The question he would ask was, whether it would effect such a change in the present sys tem as to give the mass of the people a voice and an in terest in the representation of their country in that House ? He thought it would give to the mass of the people such an interest, and, therefore, he supported it. He must make one observation on the speech of the Gallant Gene ral who sat below him. That Gallant General had spoken with approbation of general principles ; but would he act on them—would he consent to a measure by which every 30,000 people should choose a representative to be sent into that House—a measure by which the whole country would be divided into districts for that purpose? That would be a measure of principle—it would be the most fair method—and it would not be open to those ob jections to which the present was perhaps liable; for he admitted, indeed, that in the various systems adopted for England, and for Ireland, and for Scotland, there were many objections ; and, indeed, the whole was a perfect anomaly. —(Hear, and loud laughter from the Opposition.) Gen tlemen need not halloo before they were out of the wood. If the new system was an anomaly, the old one was still worse.—( Hear, hear.) It was the most anomalous and absurd system that could be conceived.—(Hear, hear.) He should be very glad when the change was effected. Ho was prepared to be content with the new plan, and so were the people ; not because they should get all that they wanted, but because they should get much that was good. —(Hear.) He was sure that the general results would be advantageous, and therefore he supported the measure. There was no doubt that the Ministers had not done all that could be wished, but he believed they had gone quite as far as they could at the present time. The difficulties that surrounded them afforded them excuse, or else he should have have wished them to reject all the petty boroughs, and to have given the 30 or 40 they would then have to spare to Ireland and Scotland. He knew, how ever, that in carrying such a measure, they would meet with the greatest difficulties. He urged the Ministers to press the Bill through the House, and he was sure it would give general satisfaction ; it would indeed give dis satisfaction to the proprietors, and to those who bad hitherto held the election in their own hands, but to the great body of the people it would be most acceptable. Sir G. MURRAY explained. He was not a friend to the application of general principles in legislation, in the manner supposed by the Hon. Member for Middlesex. What he had said was, that as general principles had been applied to England, they ought to be applied to Scotland. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. FRAUDS IN GOVERNMENT OFFICES. Mr. RICE obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the better prevention of embezzlements in the Government office'. PERMITS:. Mr. RICE also obtained leave to bring in a Bill to eon mlidate the laws relating to permits. ASSESSED TAXES. Mr. GOULBURN took that opportunity of asking the Noble Lord opposite whether be had prepared any Bill to consolidate the laws relating to the assessed taxes, and to the compositions for assessed taxes. It had been the in tention of the late Government to introduce such a Bill, for as the laws now stood, they were often excessively se vere in their operation, especially upon innocent persons, and the delay in effecting it had exposed those persons to much inconvenience from the system of surcharges, which, though justified by the letter of the law, was decidedly against the spirit of it. He wished to ask the Noble Lord whether, in the present session he should be prepared to introduce a Bill to consolidate those laws? It would be a great advantage. Lord ALTHORP agreed with the Right Hon. Gent'e man, that it would be of great advantage to consolidate those laws. He was not aware that a Bill of the kind had been prepared by the late Government. He had not found any such Bill in any degree of preparation. With respect to the question now put to him, he could only say that he should be very glad to see a Bill of the kind spoken of; but he could not promise, at the moment, to be able to give it so much of his attention as to introduce the Bill, though he should he happy to support it. Mr. GOULBURN said the Bill had been printed, and sent to the Tax Commissioners in Scotland for their con sideration. Lord DUNCANNON brought up the report of the Land Revenue Bill. The report was agreed to, after a few re marks, and the Biil was ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. THE LAST CENSUS. Mr. CROKER moved for certain returns to illustrate the last census, including an account of the amount of asses*ed taxes paid in different counties, and the registered shipping of the different ports of the United Kingdom. After a single remark from Mr. WARIIIIKTON the papers were ordered. EMBEZZLEMENT OF PUBLIC MONEY. Mr. S. RICE brought in a Bill more effectually to pre vent embezzler ent by public servants.—lt was read a first time, and the second reading fixed for Monday. Mr. HUME named the 13th March for his motion for the repeal of the Superannuation Act. SCHEDULE A. Mr. SHEIL gave notice that in the Committee on the Reform Bill he would move that the figures 56, in the first clause, be changed to 61 ; and that the boroughs of Eye, Wareham, Petersfield, Woodstock, and Midhurat, be included in schedule A. The House adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. PLYMOUTH, Jaw. 19.--The Meteor steam-vessel, Lieut. Symons, at Woolwich, has been fitted with Bolton and Watt's new boilers ; they contain fourteen tons of water less than the old boilers, and are nine feet shorter ; which makes more room for stowage. The vessel swims considerably lighter ; her shafts have been raised eight inches; the upper part of her lower paddle is now just in a line with the water's edge, with fifty chaldrons of coals on board. She is also supplied with Barton's pistons, which are a great improvement in steam navigation, as they give from one to two more revolutions than the packed pistons, and save so much labour to the engineers in packing. They have now been tried nearly two years in sonic of the Government vessels, and are highly approved of. The reduction in size, and improvements in Bolton and Watt's boilers, deserve the attention of the public. The Flamer steam-vessel, Lieutenant Bastard, of 500 tons, is nearly completed at Woolwich, on Mr. Morgan's high pressure principle, with his p a t en t w h ee l s, Which in , from a late trial they had his Majesty's steam-vessel Confiance, in getting off a lee shore, cannot be too highly spoken of. The Carron steamer is fitting with Bolton and Watt's improved boilers. The Columbia steamer, Lieut. Ede, is completed and ready for sea, at Woolwich. The African steamer, Lieut. Harvey, it also fitted and ready for sea, at Woolwich. She has had her power in creased from 80 to 90 horse power, with beautiful engines by Maudeley. (The Firebrand steamer, 800 tons, Lieut. Griffiths, acting), is nearly ready at Woolwich. Her splendid engines, by the Butterly Company, have been tried in the basin at Woolwich, and they appear to answer remarkably well, and are much admired for their strength. The Conway, of 28 guns, will be launched from Chatham yard on the 2d of next month, and be imme diately commissioned for sea service. His Majesty's ship Badger sailed from the Cape of Good Hope, for Mauritius, 27th Oct. The Challenger arrived at Madras, from Trincomalee 2d Sept. The Cur lew arrived at Mauritius, from Madagascar, 30th Sept. ; and Childers, from Cape of Good Hope, Ist Oct.—the latter sailed again for the Cape 4th do. The Messenger steamer sailed from Gibraltar, for Malta, 20th Dec. The Frances, Kirkness, from this port for Rio de Janeiro, has been spoken with in lat. 3 N., long. 21 W. The Mary Ann, Jacks, of this port, arrived at Hobart Town, 23d August. - = The small-pox is raging violently at Lewes, as well as in several other places. A slow fever, similar in its nature to the typhus, has been very prevalent at Shoreham and iu the vicinity. —Brighton Gazette.