The Sun. — London, England, 1801-02-20 00:00:00

that the Hen. General had clearli , exculpated himself in this transaCtion, aid that consequently the whole blame mint fall upon His Majesty's Ministers, unless they could exonerate themselves from it. Mr. DUNDAS said, that the Hon. Gentle. man had taken rather a singular part in the dis. cessions upon this question, for he seemed totally to have forgottcn what fell from both the Gen.. tiemen who spoke before him. The Hon. Gen tleman who brought forward the Motion had (Nine(' a variety.of authorities to slew that the Expedition was perfeEtly prafficable, and conse quently that Ministers were perfedly justifiable In undertakingit ; but these authorities,. how_ ever respeelable, seemed to have no weight with the Hon. Gentlemab, for the whole object of 'his speechwas fo blame Ministers for having sent out a Force .to efred nn impracticable objett. The Hon. Gentleman might perhaps prefer. throwing the blame upon Ministers rather than upon the Hon.. General ; but in doing so, he expressly abandoned all those great authorities upon which . the'Honourable Gentleman who made the Mo. tion had relied so completely, and therefore he supposed . be might now venture .to lay them entirely out of .his .consideration. He was extremely glad that the Debate - had taken this turn, for the only anxiety he 'had 'was, that it Might have produced soinething like a jealousy between the two, services, and upon.that ground it was that he intended to oppose the Motion. If a Military Inquiry was necessary upon the • subs, there were proper places for making that ; but it, now appeared, that it was no longer to be . considered as a Military question . . -The House were no longer to pay.any at tention to the statements about the Fleet taking the place if. they 'had not been encumbered with an Army, but the question was now , brought to the polar to which he wished it. —lf the King's Ministers were sto be attacked, for want' of wisdom or judgment in .this Expedi tion by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, it appeared at least, that though he 'admitted -the Hon. General's justification of himself, yet he paid no kind of attention, to what the Hon. 'Ge neral said in vindication of the condu& of Mi- Pisters in undertaking the Expedition. He seem. eel totally to have forgotten that the Hon. Gene. t-al had acknowledged, that he possessed every infOrmation which His Majesty's Ministers were in possession of before_ he sailed upon the Expe, dition—that ha knew •the grounds upon which they were induced to hope for success, and that he hiMself entertained similar hopes. .The Hon. Gentleman therefore ought not tv talk about Mi. 'misters -having sent out an Army, without know . it any thing of the place which they were to attack. But in point of ilia, the Hon. Gen. tiemau seemed to have determined' to - lay the blame upon Ministers, and not to pay any at_ tention - to any thing he heard upon the sub.- jeit. He had no objection to state , the grounds and, objett of this, Expedition: Tim the early part of last Campaign, • Ferrol certainly was pot the objeet against which the Expedition was levelled, consequently the Pon. Gentleman wAs wtong, in suppoSing that all the execnce was ificurred with a view to the attack upon Ferrol. He was ready further to declare, that at the early part of fast Campaign, it was the inteotion.of IVlinisters to employ the Armament in conjunction with our Allies, at' that time fighting upon the, . Continent. •It occurred to His IVlajeky's Mini sters, acing in concert with the Allies of this Country, that it would contribute to the common Cause if the force of this Country was divided, and that a part. of it was .to be employed - in the Mediterranean, to keep the Coasts of France in alarm, and that another part was to'he employed on the Western Coasts of France for the-same purpose, because France would` be then compelled to allot a-considerable part of its force to defend its Own Coasts, .which might otherwise' be em ployed against our 'Allies. He had no difficulty in stating further, that Belleisle !vas the place front which, if our plan had been successful,' our operations were to be carried on against the Nor them parts of France, and that Minorca was the place from which they ,were to be carried 'on in the Mediterranean, He need not call to the re colleilion of the House , the change that was pro duced by the Battle of Marengo. Two objeCts then engaged theattention'of His Majesty's Mi nisters. The first was, , the threat which had been made on-the -part of Spain to attack Porto gal, and the'other was, the dispositions. of the Northern •Powers i which at that time began to be' manifest. If 'it m.;as a desirable objet to provide a defence for Portugal against the attacks aiSpain, he did not see how it could be more etfettually attained titan by alarming the Coasts of Spain. And if there was a Confederacy of the Northern Powers against us, he knew 'no.objeo more desirable than to secure the Fleets'Which were in the Harbours of Ferrol and Cadiz :* these were the objeas With whiCh the Armament was undertaken. He wish ed to ask the Hon. Gentleman, whether Mini sters,havirig adopted this general plan, could at in any other way than to lay the whele of the in formation which' they possessed before the Gene. rals who were to he entrusted with the Expedi tion, and to desire them to consider how far, in their opinion, the attempt was pradicable and this the House had been told 'was the plan which had been pursued, for the' Hon. General had stated, that he' possessed all the information which Ministers had obtained, and that with that information he (lit,' go with a , rational hope of success. When, therefore, it appear ed that such 'evidence had been laid before Ministers :IS was approved of by the General who was to command the Expedition, and when the consequence of success would be that of pre yentingSpain from making any attack upon Por tugal, and taking time remaining part of the Fleet belonging to °the former Power ; when these cir curnbtanees wkre considered, / he did not think that IViittisters cWould appear culpable in the eyes of the House. The instructions; given were not to go rashly, and mnake,attacks Without considera- 1,0 NOON : Pruned by BUCHANAN WM 1.1. AN. (of Bov-Street, Covent.c ; o d e r At the SyN-OFrici., No. 112, Stivtd ; where Advirhifixotts, Ordm 1 tion, or to nth any risque.beybnd that which the ultimate objea of the • Expedition, would - justify theme in taking. At all events, •Ministers ought not to be attacked , both whys; there was• no danger, the Ministers certainly could not be ac. cused of exposing the Army ;. and if it. was an Expedition which was attended with great difli, culties, certainly Ministers ought not to be cen sured for having failed in au attack upon a place' too 'strong to be carried. The Hon. Gentleman. talked of examining people to obtain information but did the Hon. Gentleman ,suppose they were , to. examine Witnesses as at an Qlcl Bailey trial,' when the very circumstance of asking a question was enough to excite suspicion ? Besides this, the Hon. General was desired to ~consult with Lord Sr. Ville ENT, and aEtually consulted with him on board his own Ship. He (Mr. DUNDAS) was• certainly not present at the interview, but tlic accounts which he received after it had taketv place, were such as induced`him to entertain very sanguine hopes of success*. Under these circum 'stances. he would again ask the House, if Mini sters were to blame ? It was true, that from the circumstance of our Frigates having been blown off from their station before Ferrol, the Hon. General was deprived of one means of informa tion ; but. that: was 'not the fault of Ministers, for they communicated every information of which they were possessed. No body had made any complaint -that the Armament had not been well fitted omit; or that there had been'any failure in the Civil Department. No blame, therefore, he contended, could attach .upon His Majesty's Ministers ; and as to the Hon. General, the state ment which he had made this night, independent of his long-established charader, would, he was sure, rescue himlrom every imputation. *HORNE TOOKE said, he should vote ' Motion, though it was against his' own i est, for if the House should- not think it .worth their while to inquire into a matter of this importance, Old Saturn would hardly be able to gain their attention, and Priest -or no Priest could scarcely appear worthy of their considera tion. But he should do on this occasion what, undoubtedly, many Gentlemen in that House often did, namely, sacrifice their private interest to a sense of public duty. He should also make another sacrifice, and defend the Right Hon. Gen tleman who had spoken last; he should defend him for the first, and probably for the last time. This appeared at first to be a mere Military ques tion, but the Hon. General had done what he promised, viz. to make it easy to decide upon. From what he had seen, he was inclined to think this Question was likely to be lost ; but there seemed to be certain feelings on both sides of-the House, which prevented them from arguing thia Question fairly and fully. . The Hon. General had stated that, in his opinion the Ministers were justified in umfertaking the Expedition; and the Right Hon. Gentleman' who spoke last, had defended the Hon. General for the manner in which the Expedition had been concluded. Each Party defended .the other -, but if it was to be ar gtied in this manner, the truth of the Question would be lost. It did appear however to kiln, that what had fallen from ' the Right Hon. Gen tleman who spoke last, had been corroborated by the Hon. General ; but at the . same. time the eY planation of tin. kinn, neural lid induced him to think there was something wrong. He did not like to hear a, defence rested upon a Madrid Ga zette. He would, without meaning any personal offence, suppose it possible that the Hon. General kid not dope every thing which he mighty have done, and he would ask, whether there ever was a General who could not make as good a defence as that which they lnid just heard r The Hon. General would not allow the Navy to be judges, because they were not near enough to observe th'e place. The inferior Offi cers of the Army were not allowed to be judges, because they were employed at their stations; who then was •to judge- of the Hon. General's condua ? 'Why, the Hon. General himself. It really appeared to him that the case was in f l avour of the Right Hon. Secretary, who had, ,in his opinion, compktely exculpated himself from all blame. if, 'however, 'as he before said, this question was not carried, it woulct be in his fa vour ; for if -the Houscwould lint inquire , into ~ this great and ' important-question, they would ,1 inquire what a Priest was, or what kind of . ion remained upon .him after 3o years qua_ 4 i nn. He should now conclude with giving his tithe for the MOtion; and wlthdefending the Right Hon. Secretary, . who never had defended him. ;. Lord BELGRAVE opposed the Motion. Sir JAMES PULTENEY, in explanation, said, that he had not relied upon the Madrid Ga zette ; but as it was natural for the Enemy, after having been successful, to:state ikeir force rather lower than higher, he thought himself justified in supposing they had stated their forces as low as they could. He still . continued . to think that the Navy, who could not'see the place; and the in ferior Officers of the Army, who were emphiyed at their station, were not the best judges, but he ‘voula leave it to the Geitered Officers who had examined the place. Colonel GA,SCOY NE conceived this to be a subjea which called for Inquiry, and therefore should vote for the-Motion. Mr. ELLISON said, if he was in the situation of the Hon. General, he should be extremely anxious for an Inquiry into his copduCt ; perhaps he should have applied to hits D4LESTY to order a Court of Inquiry. In the Navy, a ship could not be lost without an, investigation of the con_ duet of the Commanding Officer, and certainly a great Expedition like this deserved Inquiry ; the Nation in general called for it, and he thought it was due to the Hon. General, :and to the Officers and Men of the gallant Army he commanded. Mr. .rlrr said, he was very ready to agree, that where there was any round laidlor Inquiry, the House ought to entei into it, though perhaps such an Inquiry would be better condu(ted by ,a Military Court., than by a Committee of that House; because the faets, by persons conversant in agreed also, thriovhere th suspicion, it ought to be I); lieved every candid man - would also-agree-with: him, that every time -an Expedition:faile4 it was not: necessarily a groundfor inquiry. liebelieved such a principle could not.be-mairstained, without embarrassing the Service, and. producing unneces sary animosity. He did nor mean to state this. consideration 'as a bar against. all , Inquiry, he only meant to contend that they ought. pot to be entered into unless, some strong ground was laid before the Houses He knew,. that with respect to this Expedition, there had been many doubts and surmises ; but whatever doubts any Gentleman might bring into the House, he was sure that after what . they- -had heard from his Right Hon. Friend and the . Hon. General, these doubts could no longer 'remain.— The'clistinti and convincing statement which the Hon. General had made, seemed to have entirely convinced a Learned Gentleman on the other side of the House (Mr. JEKYLL), for he had declared himself perfettly satisfied that there-was no blame imputable to the Hon. General, but that he was completely satisfied that the whole guilt remain. ed with AdMinistration. The Learned Gentle. man's benevolence of disposition seemed to be' perfettly gratified with the exculpation of theßon. General, more especially as it was coupled, in his opinion, at least, with the condemnation of. Ministers. With respect to the advantage that would have resulted from this Expedition, if it had been successful, there did not .seem to be two opinions. It was admitted by every Gentleman; that if it was an attainable object, Ministers were justified in endeavouring to effect it.— It did not appear that. Ministers had such infor mation as would have justified them in deciding positively upon this attack being persisted in, therefore they gave such instru&ions as enabled the Hon. General entrusted with the Command of the Expedition, to use his Own discretion. The mode in which Gentlemen argued this question was rather singular, for, in the first place, it was . argued that the facility of the enterprize- was a proof that the General had misconduded himself, because he did not succeed ; and, on the other .hand, it was stated with equal,positiveness; that the difficulties attending this Attack were such as rendered Ministers culpable in _attempting it : there appeared to him to he something more than. military quickness in this transition from one side of an argument to. another. This Expedi lion, however, not 'only appeared praCticable to the Officer who was entrusted with the command of it, ,and to the Ministers, : but to the Noble Lord who had been alluded to (Lord ST. VIN CENT). That Noble Lord had now accepted an important situation, which no man was titter for than himself, and than whom no man was more likely to fill it with as much gkry and ad. vantage to the Country as the illustrious Person whom he ,had succeeded. What was the. result of this Expedition ? Why, a great experiment had been made Without risk, and almost without loss, which if it had succeeded .Wnuld, it ,was nd mitted on all hands, have been highly advan. tageous to the Country. A Learned Gentleman had, in rather coarse language, accused Ministers of having slunk out of office, because they did , not solicit this Inquiry : he -could really see no kind of justice in this argument, for a man might, be as . well -reproached with guilt, because he did not solicit .a Grand Jury to find 'a Bill of Indid . - , ment against him. The Learned Gentleman had also termed the situation 'in which Ministers stood, a kind of political non &script : he:saw nothing in their situation which justified that expression ; far their situation was simply this — they had tendered their Resignation, which Re signation, had been accepted; but they remained 'a few days longer in office, in order to facilitate the dispat ch of Public Business, As to their re ;sponsibility, they were very willing to admit ;that, which would be the . crise whether they ad mitted it or not, viz. that they would remain responsible when they were private men. Mr. GREY differed &rim all the Gentlemen who had preceded : he did ;lot think that either the Ministers, or the Hon. General, had com .pletely exculpated themselves. He begged to 'observe, that this was the first-War this century in which there -had not been an Inquiry voted. In former-Wars they were freqnent : in the se ven years War, whichiwas concluded by Lord CHATHAM,' when the Expedition to; Rochfort failed, though the same arguments ; might then : have been used against Inquiry that were used upon this occasion,. yet that Noble .Lord found himself hound to in'stitute an Inquiry into the causes of the failure. Upon the present occa sion, ample . .tiMe had been given for a Military Inquiry, hut it - had not taken place ; his Hon. Friend was therefore justified in bringing forward. this Motion. It appeared that there had been, charges made by persons both in the Army and Navy against the conduCt of this Expedition, and though he was far horn saying that the impura. tions which had been thrown our against the Hon. General were founded, yet he thought they were highly deserving of Inquiry. The Generals em. ployed'in the Expedition ought to be examined,: and their -evidence would be more satisfaftor, than the Madrid Gazette. He did,not agree with, the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that if the object of this Expedition was attainable, there could be no -doubt about its policy, for he thought it not wise .to convert Spain from an inactive to an active Enemy-. Mr. GREY then proceeded to comment upon the time at which the Expedition : was fitted out, which, he contended, was too late for the purpose stated by the Right Honourable Secretary, viz. that of assisting our Allies on the Continent, for the Expedition did nig sail till our Ally, the. hMP.EROR, was rendered inactive by the defeat of Marengo. He concluded with .4,tating, that it was the general opinion of the Country, that the War had been badly conducted, and therefore :linisters were bound, for their own sakes, as was imputable toMinisters, but he thought blame did- rest -somewhete . . A very large 'Force had been einployed, r and yet the whole Expedition had failed. The Hon. General had indeed given . 61 .. Explanation, but the House had only- heard one side of the question, and . therefore it was . that he should vote for the Inquiry. Mr. DENT supported - the Motion. •! General NORTON said, he conceived the Hon. • - general who commanded this Expedition., justi.. fled by the opinions of 1 1 1€ Generals'" Who were upon the spot with him. Mr. PIERREPOINT said, he did not know where the blame attached, but he had heard an Hon. Relation of Sir WttLitaa MEADOWS, with whom the i Hon. General had serval, speak in the . hthest terms of him, with respea to his skill and courage. ' General LOFTUS opposed the Motion. Sir 1 AMES PULTENEY said, that the loss had been stated at too men, 'whereas in point of faa, it , was .only 16, the killed and wounded amounted_to 130 men. Mr. STURf replied'. He f:ontendcd for the Inquiry on the principle• that the number of the English greatly exceeded that of the . Enemy. The call for the Question becoming very gene. ral, the House divided -FOr the Motion Against it 75 149 Majority against the Motion 74 • Adjourned at eleven o'clock till to-morrow. THE SUN. 6 )111 QUIS DICLIZE: FALSeNt AL'ULA LONDON, FEBRUARY 20, 1801. One Ilamlargh MaiPstill remains duc. HER MAJESTY yesterday held a Drawing-room f. 6 at St. James's Palace, which was attended by Their Royal Highnesses the PRINCESSES, their Serene HighneSses the Prince and Princess of ORANGE, the. Bishop of WINCHESTER, ,the Im perial, Wirterriberg, Swedish,. American, Nea politan, and 'Bararian Envoys,..and.a number of Noblemen and General Officet s r . with, the follow. ing Fetnale.Nobility Datchwer—Clundos anti Rutland. . :! Afarciti&nrs le s— Buekingluon and Bath. Ciialtieilts—H3iciniton, Aylesbury, Bathurst, Niountporris and 13011ire , A. Ladies—C. She.ffield, M. Wirtyard - ,- Buxton, - Somerton, C. Somerief,:l ; Dawkins,.!A : Wontbwc.ll,, .Dynevor, Baker, C. Beauclerc, Young, CAtrington, Crofton, Calthorpe; Radstock, Huntingtiald ax:d .Bis. opp. W. Solly and J.. Alifas —Buiton; Grimvone, Colman, Chester, Court. ictirieiand:Crotton:' • The Ma c.liitinosioi RAT tiXousi tessDr NEVoikas, and Ladies BAKER; C.l3issHoPP, and J. were at Court for the first time this season. The two eldest daughters of Lord CAR KIN(:- TON were introduced to the Qu F. EN by their Mother Lady CARRINGTON. Captain REDHEAD, on his promotion in the Third Regiment of Guards, had the honour to kiss *Her - Majesty's hand. •The Countess Bums Ee it attended the Princess . of Ok Arc E as Lady in Waiting: At the cloie of the Court, HER Mn JI.'iTY arid the PRINCESSES returned to Buekinghain_iio use . HIS MAJESTY will not hold a Levee at St. James's, till Wednesday next. The KING, we are happy to' hear, is much• better from his indisposition. His Royal Highness the PRrNCE of WAIFS, we are well assured, has taken no part whatever in the late . Changes, nor • expressed any opinioill; upon the subjed, which has so unfortunately produced a difference of sentiment in the cabinet.' '~~~ PORTSMOUTH, FEB. I9.—The outward-bound Mediterranean Fleet, !which sailed ,from Spithead on Tuesday evening, did: not leave Yarmotith Road till ye*rday noon, at which time the wind .;., blew front the N.F. but in'itic'evcnin . git became calm, and in ille . aisllt shifted to the S.W. front' • which ! pallor it tiow biows gale ; and it, is expected the Fleet will.bc obliged to.put back.: again, Arrived' from a Cruize off the French Coast, His Majesty's Ships Endrn;ov, Jason, it live, Trent, La Loire, and La Sogie ; alsO the Beawt• Sloop of War from the Eastward. DEAL, FEB 19 •,—His Majesty's Ship Iris' ' '. and Arrow Sloop of War, arrived in. the .Downs this morning from the Westward, and remain. The East ; India Company's. Ship Hindustan, Captain MILLET, worked. down this morning from the River, as far, as the Gull Stream, but the ; wind blowing fresh from.. the South West,.'she was obliged to bear up for Margate 'Roads. The Duke of Montrose, .Calcatta, and:Airl . v Castle .East Indiamen„ put back this afternoon, and remain. The Airly Castle, in bringing up, . parted from an anchor, but on letting go another, brought up again without further accident. Sailed foil Standgate Creek, .tO .krform qua rantine,:the Danish Brig Anna .10ecca, iIANs TROMESON master, with wine and fruit, from the Mediterranean, Prize to the Racoon Sloop of War, and Stag Armed Cutter. „ PRICE U STOCKS, Ye ST liipAY. 114nk Stock 151/ Navy ;per Cent.'9l 901 tl s per Cent.. 17971 9 tiit lush 5 per Cer.t. 871 Ilei - Ceikt. Con. 7611 3 per Cent. Red. S 6 7. 3 per Cent. Con.s6i 61 1 pato Scrip- Bank Long Ann. t 7 7.14 t Ditto Short Ann. 5; 5- t Ditto Scrip India Stock JP Ditto Bonds s. dig. Exchequer 1141 h New ditto Lottery Tickets Omniuni 21 3 21 I miler. 3 per Cent. ssi 6 Ditto Anna 10i 13. 1 6 11 . 4mk tor Account India for ditto eons. for Feb. 56iii0 dis . .. • _ _ _..... ___ . ...--.1...-..-=.- .....*-.....................-..-- __• .. -- _ ______ ~ could only be judged of- well as for' that 'of the Of;leers employed in, the , ~" Military Affairs. 'He Expedition, to concur in this Inquiry.. i I here was rgal.:ground for cleared up; _but he be. .. • ' Lord TEMPLE Was Of opinion ' that no blame }. • .ge .11111,614 ....isi A If% M;flie fF.1 . 0 kilt hp thnsorrlit hiAmn ); and i'ublished by Ww.l Am Astmir.zß Sclttrrs (of liorie.fe(ry-road, Westminster); or the Pater, Letter, for the Editor, &c. (pottlaid), must be addressed'.