The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-22 00:00:00

those rights for 'which the Attormy- General prafese himself the advocate.—(Hear, hear.) The Press be , ' taken the liberty of d;ctetitie to the House of Peels manner i n which they should act, and to threaten the Crox, n with extermination, unless it gave way to the free exerci of the opinion of all others but itself. The Press, too, hoe forbiddeo. either House of Legislature to exercise its sure against that oee-sided leader of public opinion.-- • (Hear.l Of all the tyrannies that had ever existed, the tyranny of military despots—the tyranny of the Rornish Church, of all tyrannies, civil or religious, the greatest was that of the Press, which, while it proclaimed freedom of opinion on one side, threatened with danger, disgrace and death, those who should use that freedom of opinion on the other.—(Hear, h.-ar, hear.) He appealed to every man whether that was not the moral and practical object of the present state of the Press, and of the Attorney- General's conduct with respect to it, whose argument amounted to this, that because recently there had been a great degree of excitement in the public mind, because the liberty of the Press, at first not attacked, had afterwards grown larger, and then become monstrous, and from monstrous had become overwhelming ; and because it had become ov,rwhelining, they were to give way to it at once --(Hear.) He hoped that, at least, the Queen's Attorney- General did not maintain that doctrine : the papers had been attacking her for the last four or five months ; at first, gently, and at a distance ; but the Attorney-Gener did nothing, because lie thought there wes no doing any thing with them ; and that, if he approached them he should get a slap in the face. When asked why he did not go on against them, his answer was, that it was a bad matter which could not be mended. Indeed, then, it seemed that there were degrees of progression, and the public Press had at length been allowed to arrive at that degree, that it dealt out proscription and extermination to two Royal Personages, unless they partook of the exercise of the " free opinion" which the Press alone thought fit to tolerate.—(Hear, bear, hear.) Then the House had heard again that hackneyed doctrine, that hackney-cabriolet or hackney—coach doctrine—(Hear, hear, and a laugh); he did not complain of it because it was hackneyed, for he knew that via trite was often via tutu—but they had heard that hackney-coach argument, that prosecution gave publicity to libels, where, if the Attorney-General was asleep, they would not have been read. That was a common card trick—a common ecirts'. trick of argument, which had often been used before, hut which was now exploded and rendered ridiculous. What was the result of that argument, but that there ought to be no prosecu tions for any libels whatever, however atrocious? He now came to another argument of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General, who had complained of the libels of the Times. He (Sir 0. Wetherell) had not named the Times ; for it was not their Times, it was the Times of the other side—it was the Attorney General's Times.— (A laugh.) It was a paper conducted by a very able veriter—it was supposed to have very official knowledge —it received contributions from the most brilliant pens in this country—it was a kind of miscellany to which gen• tlemen on the other side of the House united to contribute —it prided itself on the merit of publishing papers and letters which, constitutionally, no man could know —no; none but a Cabinet Minister. It was a paper which knew what passed between the King and his Privy Council—it was prophetic as to what was to happen. His Hon. and Learned Friend never read the Times ; of course he could not ; but if he did, he would find in its columns in the morning what was to happen, and what could only constitutionally be known to Cabinet Minis ters. It united a growing power to great intelligence, and, to great facilities for acquiring information ; and,as lie had before said, it knew of papers with which they could not become acquainted but in the most improper and un censtitutional manner. But who attacked it? Not he (Sir C. Wetherell), but the Attorney-General. Why? Because it bad attacked him, in reporting the speech of a Noble and Learned Lord, who, in another place, had entered on the question whether the Attorney-General had or had not done his duty. But on this occasion he (Sir C. Wetherell) must step in to defend the Times; and when the Times mentioned Lord Lyndhurst's doctrine, that Noble had done nothing more than his duty. The statement then made was to be defended on every principle known to the Con • stitution : and if the Attorney-General prosecuted the Paper, though he was not fond of making an offer of his services, he would defend the times from that prosecution. ---(A laugh ) The Papers had libelled the Queen—not for a moral, but a political offence. They must all recol lect that the Hon. Baronet, not now in his place, had called on the Attorney-General to prosecute a certain Paper for its libels on the late Queen ; and if he were here now he would, no doubt, with his accustomed eloquence, de mand the same interposition on behalf of her present Majesty. It was true that it was not the duty of this House to look out for prosecutions; but if the Attorney- General neglected his duty, it would become the duty of that House to do this; for otherwise, if the Attorney- General was a Reformer, there would be no such thing as a p cpution for libel. Mr. J. WILLIAMS—I was a silent though zealous supporter, Sir, of that Bill to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has alluded ; and from that charge, in both respects, he is certainly exempt, for supporter of it he un doubtedly was not; and as to silence, in the number of his speeches he defied the power of arithmetic-4A laugh) —they were beyond the means of reckoning—(laughter) --and human patience legged behind his continued and man -miffing exertions.—(Continued laughter.) My Hon. and Learned Friend has called on me, as Attorney-Gene ral for the Queen, to prosecute the papers. In the first Place, he atti ibutes to me an honour that I know not I Possess, Very early in the recent events, I had the ho nour of resigning the previous honour, and how far that Titration evils effectu a l I d o not k now. —(Hear.) But next plac e , suppose i t was otherwise, and that I was e theQueen's Attorney. General, I am not aware that I should possess the power of filing an ex.officto informa. ti n o t n,even f or a l i bel upon her Majesty.—(No, no.) If n then why am I to b e appealed to ? The Queen though in many respects unlike other inerti n t ied ladies l l, distinct ri g h ts and privileges she enjoys , is but thefirst subject of th e realm ; and if she comesin o the Ki ng ' s Courts, must appear there as a subject ; and it would therefore be impossible for me, without that sort of ear nestness of zeal, resembling that which he has exhibited, to take the step which he, without the law, supposes I might have resort to.—(H ear , h ear.) On the whole of his argument, which indeed has not been much curtailed, and which, as there was no question before the House, he has carried to an extent beyond what might have been sup posed, he has interred that prosecutions for libel, and an end of libelling, are convertible terms. In making that sup position, he has been unmindful of all the events of past hi story—unmindful of the occurrences which took place in the times of other Attorneys-General, of those who prosecuted the public Press, and of those who were on the best terms with it. He has forgotten the Attorney- Gemeralship of Sir Vicary Gibbs, who had nearly one half of the public press under prosecution. Did those prosecutions produce the desired effect—did they put an zed ro the system of libels, or stifle the indignant spirit whirls the public felt for the quantity of prosecutions then instituted ? Directly the reverse. On many of those prosecutions he was foiled—the public spirit rose is pro portion to the violence of the attacks, and so far from those attacks producing the effect that was desired, they pro duced the directly contra , y result.—(Hear, hear.) Take, Sir, the converse of this proposition—take the example of a Noble and Learned Lord, who was Attorney-General subsequently to the time I have mentioned. I may be mis te4en, but I believe I am not, when I say that he had a virgin Attorney -Generalship, like an Hon. Friend op posite nee—(Hear)—he filed no ex-officio informations whatever ; and I will undertake to sas, that no change more observable than that between Lis time and the time of the Attor ney -Generalship of Sir Vicary Gibbs could Possibly be imagined.---( Hear.) The circumstance of Sir John Copley's moderation and forbearance, in contrast with that o f his predecessor, produc e d that effect which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite thinks is to be produced by an over zealous zealous dischar ge o f d u ty, but which I copfess I t h ink is nut to b e pro d uce d by that I cause, for suc h conductbelieve to be mote likely to fan the rising flame than to produce th a t qu i et w hi c h h e and supposes. D oes the Hon. Learned Gentleman think that no allowance is to be madefora period o f exc it ement ? Does be beli eve i t to be possible feel strongly an d t h e press to silentfor th e p eo pl e t o ; th a t th e peop l e should have strong feelings, should use strops , language, ande h strong expressio ns , b ut that th press should ' lag be hind them ? Doe s h e w i s h i t ? does e desire it ? If he 'bee, I tell him it is impossible, and would be improper : need I should have thought that his experience and know ledge of philosophy would have taught him that such an extraordinary difference, instead of would as suagi i ng t , nst s have n promoted and i ncreased the irritation. Hon. and Le arned Friend, as lie puts uest s n ion to me will such freedom, whether it has never occurred to him, that when any strong feeling exists, it may be continued by opposition which is now %kn-nto be in e ff ectua l , b ut which is still offensive ?_.(lleac, - hear.) Cann o t h e f i nd, and cannot the Noble Lordrii'ec' when, discover, that it is just con ceivable that the time has arrived, in a case o f t hi s kind, the sort of hostilit y to whichlliave alluded may take away all the grace from concession, and th a t th e et ithtead feet ofthiof thois hsstility will b e the people b e liev e , t h at measure bein makeg grantedreadily and wildegly, it has been extorted from the parties who have granted it he s (Hear, hear.) The lecture w hi ch the Hon. and . Iherned Gentleman has read may produce its effects upon my Hon. and Learned Friend, who can file an ex-ofli ;‘) information, but not upon me, for I cannot.—(Hear.) Sir C. WETHERELL never asserted the Queen's aa oruey-General could file ear-a/tido information, but lee night have gone to the King's Attorney-General, and esked him to file one. Sir R. PEEL—I think, Sir, that there has been little around for Gentlemen on the other side of the House '0 .alk of the a , tack made by the Noble Lord near me, whoonty put a question, which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman !night have answered or not ; but instead of answering the question, or declining to do so, he made that speech, which of course must have been matured for the pnr pose.—( Hear, and a laugh.) If the attack had been made, nothing could he more temperate and courteous than the manner in which the Noble Lord had made it. With one wart of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech I en tirely concur. There is no man who has had official ex perience of any office connected with the press, who can fail to experience the dangers of any crusade against the press. There are considerations of delicacy and prudence ; and if you produce a hundred libels, and show me that 1 the Attorney-General does not prosecute, I certainly should not from those two premises alone draw the conclusion that he had neglected his duty. In cases of obscene, or irreligious, or seditious publications, I believe that there are other considerations beyond the simple one whether they have exceeded the strict letter of the law. There are other eases in which it is absolutely necessary that the Government should appeal to the law of the land, for there may be a danger that a continued impunity would raise the belief that these libels were sanctioned by the Government. In some cases it would he the ditty of the Government, even if they foresaw that the Jury wouhl acquit, to throw that responsibility on the Jury ; and I know cases in which, when the Attorney and Solicitor- Generals had said that there would be acquittals, I have signified to them the determination of the Cabinet that they must prosecute. Ido not say that such a case has now arisen ; I am only arguing on the general principle. I entreat the Government to consider that principle, and if the time has not now arrived in which forbearance would be a greater evil than the chance of acquittal; and whether tut they forbearance may not amount to a notifi cation that they may enjoy a complete and systematic impunity : the d ineer is, that forbearance may create the impresainn, that however atrocious the libel, the atrocity itself would be the best argument in its favour. The part of the Hun. and Learned Gentleman's speech which I heard with the deepest regret, was the avowal of that opinion which was not necessarily extorted from him on the present occasion, and which, if it generally prevails in the King's Councils, will be not only fatal to the existence of this Government, hut of any form of Government that ever existed. The doctrine which has been laid down by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman is no other than this— that no man ought to he prosecuted for the publication of his opinions, provided those opinions are sincere —(Loud cheers.) Now, Sir, I mean to say that a Government cannot co-exist with that doctrine. Sincere opinions ! But who is to determine whether those opinions are sincere or not ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said in another part of his speech this evening, that he could not dive into the hearts of men—that he could not be a spy or an in former as to their secret sentiments. How, then, is he to know, when he meets with a libel dangerous to all good Government, whether the author of it is sincere in his opi nions ?—(Choers.) If such papers as those are written by a man whose object is confusion and anarchy, may he not pretend really to hold those opinions which he knows will lead to the disorganization of society, although in his heart he reprobates them ? And is the mere avowal of sincerity to shield him from all prosecution ? I will yen. ture to say, that the sincerity of a man's opinions has nothing whatever to do with the question of prosecution. The only question is, whether the doctrines themselves are dangerous; and if they seem to be dangerous to the peace f society, it is the duty of the King's Government to shield society from the consequences of the public propa gation of those doctrines. The lion. and Learned Gen tleman has announced a great 1 ititutle of opinion; with that opinion, personally to himself, I do not quarrel, though I doubt not that there will be many ready to profit by that statement; but what I complain of is, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has assumed the robe of the Attorney- General, for the purpose of destroying and paralysing the just energies of his office.—(Cheers.) It is the sta tion which he holds that makes his doctrines dangerous. Entertaining the highest respect fur the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's private character--entertaining also the highest respect for his public consistency, yet I cannot conceive how he is able to reconcile his former sentiments with the duties which devolve on him as the King'sAtto ne,- General. I would take the liberty of putting this question ro him. I wish to ask him, what he thinks would have been the fate of the present Goverement of France, if that Government had acted on the doctrine that the pub lication of any opinion, so long as it was sincere, ought to be allowed.—(Hear.) Suppose the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, on the establishment of the Government of Louis-Philippe, had been appointed that Monarch's Attor ney-General, would he have acted on the saute principles as those which he now avows ; or if he had, would that Government have stood the reiterated attacks of the Press? Does he mean to say that every Carlist and every revolu tionary paper ought to be allowed to attack the principles of Government, and to encourage the people to resistance ? I will venture to say, that that Government would not have existed for many months if it had pursued that course. But so far from attempting to act on that doctrine, the French Ministry found it to he ab solutely necessary, notwithstanding the principles of the Government were liberal, and notwithstand ing M. Perier (the head of the Ministry) had for many years been the determined opponent of the dif ferent Governments of Charles X. —I say, the French Ministry found it to he absolutely necessary for the salva tion o the Monarchy to institute no les., I believe, than three or four hundred prosecutions in one year. And yet I never heard that attributed to any desire on the part of AI. Perier to control the liberty of the Press. The foun dation of the present French Government was laid in the illegal attempt of the former Government to control the liberty of the Press. But M. Perier said, and wisely in my judgment, if these attempts are !nude both by the Re volutionists and the Carlists to excite the public mind atainst us, we will not have recourse to illegal ordinances, but we will have recourse to the juries of the country and the laws of the I ind, and put it to those juries whether they will assist us in executin g those laws.—( Hear, hear.) And yet, after all, these opinions pn i opublished ns. in the or French my o:, i, ultra paper s ma y b e very sincere part, do not doubt that the revolutionary 'lapels are sin cere as well as the Carlist papers ; but surely it is a montrrous doctrine to say that this one apology is sufficient to protect the libellers !tom the prosecuti on of the law. I doubt whether that Government could have at all struggled against its difficulties if the King of the French had not had Ministers of firmness enough to enforce the lew or the land. But how different is the case in this country ? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has given us a history of the way i n w hi c h he acted when sit ting in the capacity of a Judge. He has told us that he had before him a culprit charged with a most scandalous publication, revolting to the best feelings of nature—and not rnere;y calling in question the truths of religion, but calling them iii question in a manner so indecent, that no one of I.lltlllll rt piety could listen to either substance or farm se i bout having his feelings shocked. I can well understand that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman might doubt the policy of prosecuting this man—the policy of bringing te'ese doctrines under the notice of the public. But this is not what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said.—(Hear, hear.) He referred to the length of the man's imprisonment, and, therefore, by that time the question of the policy of the prosecution was at an end. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman',; expressions, there fore, applied not to the legal injustice, but to the moral injustice of the sentence, when lie stated that lie felt un easy during the continuance of the confinement of the man, and experienced great relief in his mind when the term of that imprisonment expired.—(Laud cheers.) If, then, this is the question—not of policy—but of moral justice, I despair of any Government being able to exist if these doctrines are to prevail ; for if it is unjust to bring before the public tribunals and punish ac cording to law those who entertain opinions offensive to religion or dangerous to the existence of Government, I really see nothing but the establishment of a more sordid and degrading tyranny than any to which society he ever yet been exposed. To tell us that we have nothing for it hut to take redress into our own hands—to tell us that there is impunity for any libel against the Governm ent , provided only that the opinion expressed is sincerely en tertained—is, in other words, to tell us that the grossest injuries may be committed—grosser than any inflicted by the confiscation of property—grosser even to a m an! of honour than any that can threaten his life, and from which every hope of redress is to be excluded. I must say, Sir, that this is a novel doctrine.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman has referred to the early periods o f his life, and h as t o ld us t h at h e d e rived from high autho rity those lessons of constitutional learning which he has observed in his subsequent course. But let me ask him — Did Mr. Fox, Mr. Sheridan, or Lord Erskine, think that, because as men sincerely held opinions, it was, there tore, pertectly safe to allow them to promulgate them without notice or prosecution? Does the Hon, and Learned Gentleman recollect the libel of Mr. John Reeves against the two Houses of Parliament ? If not, I can inform him that the persons then in opposition sever sanctioned the doctrine, that because Mr. Rees • really entertained the opinion that the House of Lori and the House of Commons, which branches might le lopt off without injury to the Monarchy, which was ta trunk, lie ought, therefore, to go unprosecuted for givins publicity to such a doctrine. If I remember right, Mr. Sheridan made two motions on that subject, the one seas that the libel should be burnt by the common hangman. and the other was that Mr. Reeves should be prosecuted by the Attorney-General. In vain did Mr. Reeves say that he was sincere in his opinion ; he was prosecuted in spite of his sincerity ! It is certainly true that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman somewhat qualified his doctrine by saying that those sincere published opinions must not excite to acts of violence. But this is a very nice point t bins. A man, for instance, may say that the time has arriveei when the ties of society ought to he dissolved; as. indeed, it has very Istely been said that the time for putting an end to the discipline of the soldier has come. The men who en tertain this letter doctrine are, probably, of opinion that if is not the ditty of the army to array itself on the side of the law ; and are such persons as those to be told that they may publish those doctrines, to do what they can to induce th . e• soldier to forget his duty? Are we, too, to be told that it is not the duty of the Attorney-General to stand forward and appeal to the laws of the country for redress in such a case? Sir, I cannot but deeply lament when I hear such doctrines as those promulgated.—(Hear, hear.) Neither, when I hear such sentiments, can I help seeing that it is not merely the Reform Bill that we are engaged in passing. —(Cheers.) It is not merely this one experiment which we are going to make on the Constitution of the country, an experiment which even its advocates say, though neces sary, is dangerous. No, Sir, what I still more lament is, that when the public mind is excited, you are not taking those means which are compatible with the success of the Reform measure, of allaying the public fever, and assua ging the hot-headed violence that is abroad. In the state in which the public Press is at present, I think the Attorney- General has expressed himself in a manner wholly uncalled for, for he has stated that it is painful to his conscience to sentence a notorious offender for a gross libel against religion, because that libel might, by chance, contain the offender's sincere opinions. lam afraid, that by such expressions as these, he has tied his hands against any prosecutions that may be necessary. But do not let it be supposed that I am bringing any charge against the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for his official conduct heretofore. So far from it, I wit. nessed, with pleasure, his manly prosecutions of Mr. Car lile and Mr. Cobbett ; though I cannot help observing, that at that time he did not stop to inquire whether the libels contained their sincere opinions. No, he only in quired whether the libels were mischievous in their ten - dency.—(flear. ) He inquired into their tendency—he found they were calculated to encourage incendiarism, and he therefore prosecuted the authors. What was the re sult of those prosecutions? One was convicted. It is true the other escaped ; but under what circumstances ? Eleven of the Jury, says the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (though, by the way, I do not know how he got at that fact) were for a conviction; but the twelfth, who was a friend of Mr. Cobbett's, starved the eleven into acquiescing in his opiuicn. Now, Sir, I mean to say that such an ac cident as this is no argument against any future prosecu tions ; and to be deterred from prosecuting, because, by accident, there is one man on a Jury able to control his fellows, is to be deterred by a phantom which should not be allowed to have any effect. I cannot help hoping that these opinions have rather been expressed by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in expectation of some attack being made upon bin At all events, I can assure him, that nothing would give me greater pleasure than to learn that I have misunderstood what he said ; for in the pre sent titnes, and in those which I foresee will succeed the present, I cannot conceive any opinion more dangerous to the Government of the country than the doctrine, that a man may not only maintain, but propagate any principles, provided be is sincere in them, among the deluded and in furiated multitude.—(Cheers.) The ATTORNEY.GENERAL—I never said that, in my judgment, sincerity of opinion was to protect a man from prosecution ; on the contrary, I said that I could not dive into men's hearts. I also said that it was not my personal feeling that was to regulate this matter; but my feeling of what was due to the security of the public, and to the honour of the Crown. More than this is unneces sary ; and while I entertain these principles, which I be lieve to be as Just as I know them to be sincere, I shall not take the advice of the Right Hon. Gentleman (though I receive it with all the candour that is due to it) to resign my office into hands in which the duties of it may not perhaps be more conscientiously discharged, even though the Right Hon. Baronet himself should appoint my suc cessor.—(hear, hear, and a laugh.) Ido not know what his opinion of the duties of an Attorney-General may he, but my opinion is this—that he is to do all that in his conscience he believes to be right for the purpose of pro tecting the peace of the country, and the honour of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman has asked me my opinion of the conduct of the French Go.. vernment. In the first place. I beg to sty that there is no sort of parallel between a new Government emerging from the Revolution of the berricedes— Several Hem. I%lEl%lm:its : Spoke! spoke ! The ATTORNEY-GENRAL—Whoever objects to my observations on the ground of my having spoken, will, I trust, be so good as to remember that I have risen in consequence of being misunderstood.—(llear, hear.) I was about to say that no just parallel can be drawn be tween the ancient and long-established Government of England and the new Government of France : hut I be lieve that, ineread of the latter being strengthened, it has been materially injured by the multitude of prosecution s that the French Ministry thought proper to institute. As to the example set by Mr. Fix and Mr. Sheridan in the case of Mr. John Reeves, I think at all events that that is not an example in favour of such prosecutions, and, least of all, by order at the House of Commons. Let me remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that I looked to other cantle. quences besides that which he has quoted, as if it had been the solitary one on which I rested my argument; for though I said that sincerity of opinion was one of those opinions which would make me reluctant to prosecute, yet I only mentioned it as one of numerous others which would weigh with me as Attorney-General before I committed the honour of the Crown to the uncertain issue of a legal prosecution.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed, I may say that I mentioned all the objections which the Right Hon. Gentleman has laid down, and particularly that of giving a greater publicity and thereby increasing the atrocity of the venom. I admit that throughout the us hole of this debate we have in a manner been letting out secrets; and I therefore think it would have been better if such a question had not been put in this House as that proposed by the Noble Lord (Stor mont); for even the arguments of the Right Hon. Gen tleman himself—built as they are on official experience —are just encouragements to the repetitions of the libel. I therefore think that it would be much better not to discuss these matters, whereby we shall be avoiding, as far a s we can, the introduction of them to the notice of the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman has also thought proper to make a sort of reprehension on me for entering so largely on this eubj•ct, when it only came before the House in the shape of a question proposed to me—l admit in a most courteous manner—by tha Noble Lord. But I would ask the Noble Lord himself, whether, after what has been said in this House and the o'her House of Parliament, and whether, after his having given notice of this very question, it would not have been a surprise to him, and an apparent direliction of duty in me, if I had nut taken the opportunity of stating some of the reasons which, in my view, make these prosecutions unadvisahle ? I really think, after all, that there id no great difference of opinion between us on the principle of the thing : we have only stated some consid e rations which have more or less strength according to our different situ ations 3 but Ido not feel that in anything (except as to the sincerity of a man's opinions) I differ from the Right Hon. Gentleman—unless, indeed, in degree. With re spect to the particular ease I menti ened to the House, I did so because I thought it was a strong illustra tion of the want of power on the part of the Attorney- General to put an end to a libel ; for, notwithstanding the abhorrent nature of the publication, the public feeling was far from being satisfied at the sentence, and I thyself (as I must again repeat) was glad when the term of the man's imprisonment had expired ; not that I believe that the sentence was unjust, but because I felt that he was a young man just come to town, who probably did not know what he was doing, and who was led away by a false en thusiasm into an honest belief of the sincerity of hi cause. I now only have to thank the House for its in dulgence in having listened to me, and again t o re p ea t, that, us Attorney-General, I am giving up no power that belongs to the Crown. lam only :squirting up for a care ful and forbearing use of it, which I believe will not only conduce to the protection of property, but to the well being of the whole counnuni'y.—(Cheers.) Sir R. PEEL—I think that all who heard the lion. and Learned Gentleman will confirm me in my impres sion, t h at b e la i d down the d octr i ne o f th e sincerity of a man being an apology for any libel he might publish, witho ut any qual i f i cation whatever, un l ess t h e lib e l excited to actu a l v i o l ence. I certa i nly recogn i se a distinction be tween the Government of France and the Government of England ; but, nevertheless, I can see circumstances even in this ancient Government which may call for the alive interference of the law, for the purpose of repressing the too great licentiousness of the Press.—(Hear.) Captain GORDON said if Government would not p r . eeu t e such li elit as those alluded to by his Noble Friend he would pledge himself to bring the worst he could co► fect, once a week, to the House of Commons, for the pur pose of reading them.—(A laugh.) Thereby he shoo'. he discharging his duty—(A laugh)—and then the respon sibility would rest on the shoulders of the Government. Lord ALTHORP—I hope the Hon. Gentleman will not persevere in reading those papers to the House once a week ; for he very truly says it is probable that a great number of the Members of this House do not know even of the existence of the papers from which he is to quote ; to which I may add, that it is also probable that a great majority of the people of England are equally ignorant os them ; and, therefore, if the Hon. Gentleman, week after week, reads all the most objectionable passages, he will be in a fair way of giving them a prosperou s sale.—(Laugh ter.) Agreeing very much in what has fallen from the Right Honourable Member for Tamtvorth, I think that one of the dangers of prosecuting these libels will be, to give the defendant an opportunity of making an impudent defence in a Court of Justice, whereby the publicity of his paper will be very much increased. But there are other circumstances which we are also bound to take into consideration—the state of the excitement in the country at the present moment, for instance ; though, at the same time, I admit, that whatever that excitement may be, on general political subjects. it cannot at all jus tify the personal attacks which have lately been made. I am sure that in making this statement, I am only ex pressing the general feeling of the House ; but if we once enter into a crusade of prosecutions of this sort, so far from doing good to the cause of good Government, morality, or freedom of opinion so called, I am afraid that we shall be inflicting on all these a most serious injury.—e(Hear.) Mr. HUNT, with repect to Mr. Hetherington, with whom he was intimately acquainted, could take on himself to say that that Gentleman was very sincere in his opinions. The Attorney-General had given him infinite pleasure by the speech which he had delivered that night.—(A laugh.) He never thought to have lived to hear such a speech from an Attorney-General—(Hear.) —and having heard it, he did not wish to live to hear another.—(A laugh.) The Attorney-General, however, had alluded to a case that he had tried at the Old Bailey. Now, he wished to ask the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whether he had not in creased the man's imprisonment, because he had made an impudent speech in defence?—(" Certainly not" from the Attorney-General.) Well, at all events, it had so been reported. He also wished to know why the prosecution against Mr. Cobbett had been suspended ? Was it not because Mr. Hume had written to Lord Grey, to dissuade him from the prosecution, because Mr. Cobbett was so strenuous an advocate for the Reform Bill? (A laugh.) He understood that it west; anti if the At torney-General would not afford any information on the subject, he (Mr. Hunt) should some day move for a copy of the letter. The effect of suspending Mr. Cohbett's prosecution was, that Mr. Car lile was tempted to write a still stronger article the following week, for which he was prosecuted and convicted. Only a week back, and coaches, omnibuses, and all, were christened Adelaide. Half the boys and girls, too, who were born were christened Ade laide ; and now the name was all at once wiped out from the omnibuses, and boys and girls were a shamed of it. He remembered when he came first to London—he vas then 14 years of age—that he had to walk from the Saracen's Head to Newgate, and in the Old Bailey he perceived a very bad smell.—(A laugh.) He found that this arose from the burning of a woman, who had been found guilty of coining. There were no laws to exempt females from punishment, and if the Queen had done any wrong —though he did not say she had—she might be liable to punishment. At least there was nothing, as the Hon. Member said, unmanly, offensive, or ungentlemanly, in calling a woman to account. Mr. SHAW congratulated the Attorney-General on the compliments he had received from the Hon. Member for Preston. ''hey must be doubly valuable, inasmuch as the Hun. Member had accompanied them by some observa• tions equally laudatory on Mr. Hetherington, the editor of the Poor Alan's Guardian, a paper published ex pressly in defiance of the law, in order to try right agains might. 111 r. J. CAMPBELL thought it was not the duty of the House of Commons to instruct the Attorney-General in the performance of his duty. REFORM BILL FOR SCOTLAND. The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Scotch Reform Bill was then read. The LORD ADVOCATE rose to move that the Bill he then read a second time. It was not his intention to enter at any length into the subject, or enter into any ar guments as to the principles of the Bill then before the House, but not for the first time. On the present occa sion he would only state that the principles of the Bill were the same as the Bill formvrly before the House, and which was carried to a second reading during the last ses sion of this Parliament by a larger majority, he believed, than had voted on any question concerning the English Bill. It was not his intention to anticipate the objections which might be made to the Bill, but he should reserve to himself the privilege of replying to any objections which mightbe made, Members. On h oroftaking notice of p of r aensyentltainogctel:sin, he that might fall from Hon. should confine himself to explaining the alterations which bad been made in the provisions of the Bill. He hoped, after the second reading, that the House would allow him to go into the Committee pro forma, when those altera tions might be introduced and the Bill printed with them. The changes he meant to propose were not material. In the first place, in order to meet the objections of some gentlemen of Argyleshire, he meant to separate the island of Bute from that county. The second change which the Learned Lord mentioned related to the inhabitants of boroughs, but its exact purport was not ascertained in the gallery. The third alteration related to the machinery of the B; 1, and the manner of registering votes. The duty of making that register and of attending to the subject, was, in the boroughs, transferred from the sheriff-clerk to the town-clerk. There were a variety of minor alterations to render the provisions of the Bill in accordance with those of the English Bill as amended by the Committee, hut these would be best explained in the Committee.— (Hear.) He had only, then, to move that the Bill be read a second time Sir G. CLERK said, it was not possible that he could allow the Bill to go a second reading without declaring that he retained all the opinions he had formerly expressed on this whole measure. He meant to declare his opinion without any fear of the consequences, notwithstanding the Hon. and Learned Member for Wilichilsea had attributed all the excitement which existed in the country to the op position which had been made to the Reform Bills. He might take refuge behind the Articles of Union, and, hold ing them in his hand, object to the Bill. He did not mean, however, to divide the House on the subject, but only to enter his protest against the whole measure. He ' certainly objected to the qualification for counties, as most injurious to the landed interest. No Anti-Reformer of Scotland objected to giving representatives to the large towns: on the contrary, the Anti-Reformers wished to give such towns representatives; but they objected to the qualification proposed. He hoped that the Learned Lord, and the Noble Lord, would appeal, not to the Anti-Re formers, but to the Reformers of Scotland, and they would learn that the qualification for the county electors was very unfavourable to that agricultural interest which the Bill professed to pronnte. He hoped, most earnestly, that the mischiefs which he apprehended from the Bill might be averted ; but certainly be feared that much mischief would result from the Bill ; and he believed even some of its supporters were alas med for its probable consequences. Mr. FYSRE PALMER referred to the trial and im prisonment of Muir and Palmer, for having promoted Re form in Scotland. They encouraged the people of Scot land to petitio❑ for their rights, and for this they were tunished• The words they used were—to claim for them selves a full, fair, and free representation of the people i❑ Parliament. These very words were now ringing from one end of Scotland to the other, and fur using them were Muir and Palme r sent to Botany Bay. They were sen tenced to he transported for using words that were now idolized throughout Scotland. They were treated as it they had bee❑ guilty of highway-robbery. They were sent to the hulks, where he had visited Mr. Palmer, and found him load e d with irons, and placed amidst house breakers footpads, and highwaymen. These men were punished for saying that Scotland was entitled to a full anti fair representation. That was lorty years ago. What a change had now taken place ! The actions for which men were then punished were now idolized throughout the country. What had brought about this cha nge ? Had not peisecution tried to prevent it ? Banishment had been tried; other punishments had been tried ; but they had not prevented the effect of those principles which were calculated to benefit society. The measure of Reform was now beyond the power of man to stop it, and he was convinced that it was calculated to add to the happiness of the people. What was the cause 01 this great change? For forty years the Government had opposed it. Had it been brought about by the Whigs and Radicals out of office? Was it the fruit of Whig or Tory Councils ? Gentlemen had talked of reaction ; but these who looked upon the events of the last ten days would never talk of reaction again. There was scarcely a town in England and Scotland which had not come forward in favour of the Bill. He had taken the pains to inquire into those who were opposed to it, and he bad scare Ye found one. There was no reaction, and he should !,' glad now to hear any man assert in that House that thy' was. The whole people were in favour of Reform, ae, that showed a gre,tt change in the opinion of the countt:, Was that the result of the ni;srit a of the last forty year. Did it arise from the pressure of taxation ? Was it cans , by that change of the currency which hail at once double the amount of the taxes paid by the industrious classes though it did nut come into full operation till 182iY Whether arising from these or other causes, there was 110, general feeling in favour of Reform, and when th it B which had been so well fought in that House became tie law, he did not &mist that the Members who had sto by it and done their duty, would receive what they were well entitled to—the thanks of the country.—(Hear.) Colonel LINDSAY wished to remind the House that this Bill was not a restoration, it was not a correction t abuses, it was a complete new constitution—an entice change. He would show this he the Learned Lord's owe speech. He said, on bringing in the Bill, that no shred or rag, no jot or tittle of the old abomination would I,e suffered to remain. The Learned Lord's speech was a good one, but the sentiments were those of Jack Cade. " Away, burn all the records of the realm ; my wouth shall be the Parliament of England." Such, too, were the sentiments of the Learned Lord ; his were precisely the sentiments of Jack Cade. The Learned Lord argued that a great change was necessary, and he said, if he un derstood the Learned Lord right, that by greatly exteud ing the franchise, the people would be satisfied, and the means of their prosperity provided. But in Ireland the franchise was much more extensive than it had ever beet: in Scotland, and he had yet to learn that the people of that country were either satisfied or prosperous. He had always understood that they were discontented and miserable. Other causes were assigned for thi but certainly the extent of the representation had not saved Ireland from being more wretched than Scotland. Turning to England, he begged leave t ask whether the advantages possessed by this country were so great, that Scotland ought to be anxious to change her own institutions for those of Eng land? He saw no such difference in the prosperity of the two countries. Upon the whole, it appeared to him that they were about to effect a complete change iu all the in stitutions of the country; and he could not but think that evil consequences would result. The principles of the Bill were admitted; but he had a right to call upon them to apply those principles impartially. Now let them look at the respective claims of the two countries. The popu lation of England and Wales, in 1821, was 11,978,875. That of Scotland amounted to 2,093,456. The popula tion of S: otland, with reference to that of England, was therefore above one-sixth. The revenue of England was 40,910,2801. ; that of Scotland, 5,113,3531.—ab0ut the proportion of one-eighth. On what principle could they therefore deny to Scotland her fair proportion of Mem bers ? He had a right to demand for Scotland a number of Members proportionate to the number of Members returned for England. In doing so, he was asking but tor bare justice, and he hoped that Ministers would give to the suggestion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh shire that consideration of which he thought it worthy. Mr. ANDREW JOHNSTON considered the conduct of the people of Scotland most exemplary. They were a people who had wrenched from a King and Legislature their rights and freedom. The Church Government was different to that of England, but it was placed on a more efficient and satisfactory footing.—(Hear, hear.) Their institutions were of an excellent description, founded on the sentiments of public opinion ; but instead of owing this to the legislature, as had been stated, they had found the legislature always ready to assist the Prince in his ef forts to establish despotism, as they had assisted one of their last Princes, and would have proceeded but for the determined resistance of the people of Scotland. When had the Scotch Peers and Members generally been found but swelling the ranks of Ministerial majo rities ? The counties were chiefly under the nomina tion of Nables and Gentlemen of large property and in fluence, and where they were large they generally adopted the wise and prudent plan of voting for the Ministerial candidate. His Gallant Friend opposite was, of course, an exception, for he, it was well known, was chosen ex pressly an opponent of Ministers.—(Hear.) Ile wished to point out the deplorable condition of the people of Scot land, in order to show bow mere an act of justice was that measure now under the consideration of the English Parliament. The whole system of representation hitherto had been notoriously venal. There were abundance of the lower places in the Customs and the Excise which were very acceptable to his friends in the North.—(Hear, hear.) This system of corruption ought now to be put a stop to; it was time that his native land should be no longer degraded by such a foul and abominable traffic as was now carried on.—(Cheers.) With regard to the extent of the franchise, let that House extend as far and as wide as they pleased, provided they equally ex tended the means of giving to the people a mural educa tion, so as to enable them to keep pace with their increase of political power.—(Cheers.) Mr. HOPE did not deny the necessity of a change in the representation of Scotland ; but he denied the neces sity of so sweeping a measure, to the consequences of which lie could not look without the greatest anxiety and alarm. Sir GEORGE WARRENDER considered it most desirable the measure should be a final one, but as that was not to be expected, unless it was so framed as to afford general satisfaction, he was glad to bear from the Learned Lord that it was his intention to extend the 101. franchise in the msnner he had stated. Lord LOUGHBOROUGH found, by one of the clauses of the Act of Union, that no alteration should be made in public rights contrary to the terms of that Act, but that private rights might be altered by the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Now, surely no Hon. Member on the Bench opposite would venture to assert that the alteration of the representation of the kingdom of Scotland was the alteration of a private right; and it it was not, then there was no authority, under the terms of the Act of Union, for the alteration now proposed. He should not offer any further opposition to it, except by entering his solemn protest against the Bill, as at once unconstitu tional and unnecessary. He should trust to the gene rosity of the Noble and Learned Lord to allow of such alterations and amendments in this Bill as might be found requisite. Mr. C. FERGUSSON said that the introduction of the 101. vote was such a revolution in the representative system of Scotland, that he had for a time hesitated to adopt it. But, when he found that a right of voting was to be given to the tenantry of the country, he thought it but fair and equitable that the holders of the houses in bo roughs should be entitled to votes. He had, however, one objection to the Bill. He thought the lauded interest had not been sufficiently attended to. The proportion between the representatives of boroughs and counties had not been properly preserved. The Bill was absolutely necessary, for he was thoroughly convinced that the people of Scot land never would have been satisfied with their present system of representation when they beheld the representa tion of England purified and rendered popular. He ob jected to the introductio❑ of lower votes into the county constituency, and that had been done in the present case by the mode in which Greenock and Port Glasgow were provided for. Greenock was the only place kept as a bo rough, while the voters of Port Glasgow were thrown into the county constituency. Two evils resulted from this. Iu the first place, the franchise of the town voters was narrowed ; and in the next, the county voters were inundated by men who had not similar interests and opinions with their own. Mr. C. DUNDAS protested against the principle of this 8111, which he thought would be very destructive to the true interests of Scotland, but should content himself with entering his protest against the Bill, as he could not offer it a more effectual opposition. Sir C. FORBES maintained that no case bad been made out to show the necessity for such an extensive Re form as that which was now proposed. He should shun his consistent opposition to the measure by dividing the house upon it. He had no objection to the Borough Reform; but he had strong objections to the other parts of it. Mr. HUME was glad that his Hon. Friend had at last come round to support the Borough Reform in Scotland ; and he thought that in another month it was probable the Hon. Baronet would support the whole of the Bib. Hr hoped that this measure would be of advantage to the whole people of Scotland, and he believed it would be so. Sir G. MURRAY hoped that the Hon. Baronet would give him his support o❑ the question of giving a greater number of Members to the Scotch counties. H e b u d never stood here as the uncompromising enemy of Reform. All he desired was caution and moderatio❑ in introducing the Reform that might be found to be required. He thought that the Reform Bills had been inconvenient!) divided, and that the present Bill had, in consequence, done much injustice to Scotland. He was of opinion that with an united Legislature, such as now existed, vv ought to legislate in the same manner for all the parts of the United Kingdom.—(Hear, near ) Upon this prin ciple he thought that Scotland and Ireland ought to have their due share of the seats that had b. en rindered dis posable by the disfranchisement of close arid nomination boroughs. The number of disfranchised boroughs was 144. Of these, England was to have 131, while only eight were reserved fur Scotland, and but five for Ire land. In respect of wealth, population, industry, and intelligence, there was no people hater entitled to an increase of representation than Scotland; arid Ireland was also entitled to a larger share than was now given her. That country possessed great advantages, bit she suffered from many evils. These evils were caused by misgovernment, which he feared had increased of late: It was the endeavour of the Government to which he had belonged to extinguish the flumes of discord in that country. There seemed for some time an abatement of the fury that haul reigned there; but, he was sorry to say, that he believed those flames had recently been rekindled and lighted up. Whatever might be thought of the Reform Bill intended for amencing the representation of England and Wales, there could be no doubt that the Scotch Reform Bill would go to effect a complete revolution in that country. Not that he thought that a ground of objection ; he did not think mere revolution, as such, with respect to the franchises of Scottish e'ectors. Heretofore, in this country, they had been accustomed to consider the word revolution as im plying a change which had established the liberties of the people, and /aid the basis of all our prosperity ; and it was not until a change bail taken place in a neighbouring country, which seemed to he a process of revolution that never was to have an end, that men began to attach to the term revolution the idea of a change essentially mis chievous; but in whichever sense the word might be used, there could not be the sightest doubt that the. Scotch Reform Bill, if passed into a law, would effect a revolution ; at the same time that he never denied that there were great ble mishes in the Scotch system, and that it was susceptible of great improvement. The present Bill, however, would not accomplish those amendments which he thouelit the most important, and be feared that it would introduce a change highly injurious to the agricultural in terest, though there still was to be taken into account that the principle of the mutilation of counties had heen aban doned, at which he sincerely rejoiced. Amongst the va rious objections which be entertained to the general plan of Reform, there was one to which the Scotch Bill was par ticularly open—that of its tendency to concentrate power. Nothing was more adverse to liberty than that concentra tion of power ; and most assuredly the concentration of too much power, even in that House, woul6 lead to conse quences most injurious to the liberty of the subject. He lamented to think that in bringing forward that measure the first step was to delude the people, and the next was to set on foot a system of excitement with respect to the people, and of intimidation with respect to the Members of the Legislature, which scarcely left them in the position of free agents. That system had also the effect of placing the Crown in such a situation as that the Crown could not a. .t independently, and thus its prerogative would be applied to the destruction of the other House of Parlia ment. In conclusion, he begged to add that he thought it would he better not to take the division upon that stage of the Bill. After a few words from Mr. PRINGLE, Mr. CROKER said, that great as were his objections to the general measure of Retorm, be certainly must ad mit that, as the principle of that Bill was affirmed on the second reading, he thought it had been admitted on the other side, that the present representatives for Scotland did really represent local interests, and were distinguished for their integrity ; that was an admission to which he wished to call the attention of the House, for he thought it an admission of considerable importance. Bowing then to the decision of the House, he should not offer any con tentious opposition on the second reading ; but agree at once to the Bill being considered in Ccomittee. Mr. CUMAHNG BRUCE would certainly oppose many of the details of the measure in Committ .e. Colonel SIBTHORPE was understood to observe that out of 658 Metn: ers, there were but few present at that important discussion. if the people and their repres,n, tatives had their feelings masie known to each other by a Press that was faithful to the trust reposed in it, there could be no doubt that the Reform 13:11 would never have passed. The Bill was then read a second time. The LORD ADVOCATE then said, that he wished the Bill to he committed pro forma to-►no row (this day), that its promoters might have an opportunity of üb►rrittuig to the House such amendments as they proposed to intro duce previous to its recomm►ttal. Ordered accordingly to be committed this day. The Division of counties Bill was read a second time. Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed that it be committed pro forma on Friday, for the same reason, and with the same intention as the Learned Lord expressed relative to the Reform Bill.—Agreed to. ROMAN CATHOLIC MARRIAGES BILL. Mr. RUTHYEN moved the order of the day for going into Committee on this Bill; but after a few observations from some Hon. Members, he consented to withdraw it, on an understanding that a Bill founded on the same prin ciples should be introduced by the Solicitor-General for Ireland. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and :be House adjourned at Half-past One o'Clock. CHICHESTER, MAY 19.—His Grace the Duke of RICHMOND has signified his intention of lower ing the rents of his tenantry immediately 25 per cent. The Hon. Captain M. T. F. BERKELEY, R.N. of Berke ley Lodge, Bonham, bas declared his readiness to follow his Noble brother-in law's example. The Duke of RICH MOND'S popularity in Sussex is already at a high pitch, and the magnanimous consistency of his political conduct, combined with the above act of liberality, will assuredly increase and confirm it.—Portsmouth Herald. The statue of CANNING, erected in Pa lace-yard, continues to excite the surprise and regret of all who look on it. Nothing so vile in taste, or so.defective in execution, has outraged public opinion for some years, and we apprehend that it must eventually be consigned to the furnace. The only pretence for placing it in such a position was, that the figure should be made to look to wards the House of Commons; but the artist has, with most perverse ingenuity, turned his hack to the House, and at the same time attempted to realize our coneeptiona of the light and fragile figure of the orator, by giving bins the paunch of a Falstaff and the muscle of a Hercules. It is useless to criticise where all must be eondernned ; and we rather think the artist himself must have had his mis givings on the subject, if it be true, as we have heard it stated, that he delayed the erection of his work under the pretext that it might suffer injury (rain the hands of the populace. The colour—a pea•green—has a very curious effect. The wags of the neighbourhood have already ex hibited their pleasantry in naming the erection the Green Man and Stid. Observer. We entirely concur with our contemporary. It is proposed to establish a police force, in Hereford, to consist of a sergeant and ten men, and to he regulated according to the system in London, Cheltenham, and some other large towns.— Worcester Journal, A peculiar trait of the customs of the Hima - layan peasants I witnessed a few days afterwards—namely, the putting s a u n einfantof fth to sleep this experiment by the action o hadpi tl water. n,a d e Tlie up sucecselul my mind not to believe in, until convinced by ocular proof. The method was as follows :—..the child, who•e age might be a year or two, was laid by its mother, who was em ployed in bruising grain, on a charpoy placed on a sloping green bank, along the top of which ran a small spring stream. A piece of bark introduced through the sin banitinent, conducted a slender spout of water, which fell st the height of about half a foot, on to the crown of ths infant's head. It was fast asleep when I witnessed the process! The natives believe that it is a great fortifier of the constitutiou.—Captain Mundy, STATE OF TRADE.—it is almost impossible to over estimate the importance of an early settlement of the Reform question, speaking in reference merely co the state of trade. We have no reco:lection of any former public event whatever, which produced so complete a -toppage of business in this town as that caused by the resignation of Earl GREY'S Administration. o:ders were forthwith countermanded ; merchAnts susvended their operations ; buyers from a distance went or were recalled some, without effecting their purchases; slid a large number of our manufacturers and wareh••usemen state that for any thing they really have to do, they might just as well actually close their establishments. This is a state of things which obviously cannot continue long, or it ,will be impossible to find employment for our labouring population, and the probable consequences of a general .carcity of work at such a time or excitement, we almost tremble to think 01. The Tories li'tle know the awful responsibility they have assumed.—Manchester Guardian. SIGNS OF THE 11INIES.-It is almost im possible to describe the • ffect of the Ministerial defeat and ,he resignation of the Ministry, upon the commerci ,I and trading community. The editor lit this prper, when at-, rending at Wigan on Wednesday last to report the meeting, , net with a Wolverhampton tradesman of great respecta •ility, a gentleman who had never yet taken pirt in Po ; itics. He s t a t e d th at h e h a d l etters ever y eveni ng n mime, giving the most a pp a lling descriptiodn low, were opublic the ed Birminghamstaing th at everyand other o ho e d r y2 Unions. He had the evening before written to require his name to b e enrolled. last tire lie further stated that in t. eclays, be had b een spun business in some of the principal manu,,cturing :,,was in the county, !Alt that nu ado 'Turd be effecaed. :n fact, that he wa., running OVI-Ir the ground 'without do. ng anything. On inquiry among the commercial men, they all confirm this statemeiit of the condition of track—, Bolton Chronicle.