The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-14 00:00:00

pLAtpone the preeentittion of the petition until Weclnesai., next. Lord GODERICH wished to know from the Noble Earl whether he would confine himself, when he presented the petition to the mere presentation of it, or to execute an intention which the Noble Lord understood the iohle Earl to have announced on a former day, that of moving to refer the subject of his petition to the conside atiel of the Committee. Lord HAREWOOD said, if he found the Govern ra:crit were not disposed to grant what the petition prayed he would make bi-; observitions at 'ength upon it when he presented it, and moved that it should be referred a Committee on another day. OM YArinT3T.. REFORM BILL. lhe Order of the Day having been moved for the dis cassion to be renewed on the second residing of the Re form Bill, Lord WYNFORD rose to address the House, and on the ntoticn of Lord Kenyon he was almost immediately allowed to address their Lordships sitting. The Noble and Learned Lord began by stating that he meant to take a nearer view of the principles of this Bill than either the Noble Baron near him (Lord Wharncliffe) or the Noble Earl (Earl Harrowby) had done; and be hoped, after disssecting it, as ne meant to do, though that would occupy a consi derable time, yet that their Lordships wool I not consider he had unnecessarily occupied their attention. He thougl:t he should be able to demonstrate to their Lordships that this was the very worst of three bad Bills which had been presented to Parliament o❑ the subject of Reform. In the outset it was absolutely neces sary that be should take notice of something which had fallen from some Noble Lords on the other side of the House in the course of this debate, and particularly as one of those Noble Lords had made a charge against himself, (Lord Wynford) which he boldly and most distinctly declared to he totally unfounded. It had been charged to him that he had thrown out impu tations against the conduct of Ministers. He, how ever, strongly denied that he had ever dealt in imputations. He had adverted to a petition containing certain charges; but he bad no means of knowing whe ther they were true or false, except as to one point, that although the Bill professed to destroy rotten boroughs, it wholly passed over many of those rotten boroughs which were in the hands of the Whigs. And what was more, it seemed to have a fructifying quality, which had been .?escribed in another place, and under which new nomina tion boroughs were to groat up and flourish. He regretted exceedingly to bear, in the course of the present de bate that three. Noble Lords, for whom he entertained high respect, had deserted the side which they took on a former occasion, and thereby placed themselves in a !situation which be would not attempt to describe. Those Noble Lords, while they admitted that their opi nions of the Bill remained unchanged, deemed it necessary to pursue a different course from that which they asloptod on a former occasion. One Noble Lord said the present Bill was as bad as the last, andjthereore, what reason he bad for voting for the second reading, he (Lord Wynford) was wholly at a loss to divine. Another Noble Lord said that the present Bill was not quite so bad as the last, that the last Bill was rounded on population, and the present on property. He had looked very attentively through all the clauses of the Bill, and was decidedly of opinion, that co far from its being founded on property, it actually took property away and gave none in return. He was convinced the present Bill was the worst that had been presented to the House. But he objected mcre particularly to one elause, which was worse in the present Bill than .n either of the former ones. He alluded to the 101. clause, whichwas the most important of the whole,and g we its whole value to the Bill. The Noble Lord to whom he had al luded, objected to the clause OR a former occasion ; but stated his belief that the present chute was the better of the two. It appeared to him (Lord Wynford) that lsa the former Bill the qualiscation was the being rated at tea pounds a year ; but that according to the present Bill, a voter need not be rated aat single shilling.—(" Hear," and " No, no.") He believed that that was the meaning of the clause. Lord GREY assured the Noble Lord that he was incor rect. By the present Bill a person might have the ten pound franchise four different ways, eithwr by being rated, by paying tales, by ten pound rent, or by occupying a house of that value. Lord WYNFORD only wished that the issue of this question rested on the correctness of this assertion. He declared, the present Bill not only differed from former Reform Bills, but from a'l Bills founded on the statute book between the reigns of Henry VI. and George 111., and which made the value of property the arek e fixation for - voting.—(Hear, hear.) In this Bill,lreites ant the value of the property, but its relative value to the occupier.—(Hear, hear.) So that any :n an who carried on any description of business might tee allowed to swear to the requisite value. If the Noble Earl -pposite (Grey) could show he was wrong in any of his facts or conclusions, he was ready to yield, but having made up his mind, after due consideration, he would not alter it without sufficient proof that he was wrong. tie now came to another topic. Noble Lords admitted that there were defects in the measure, and such defects as would render it impossible to pass in that state into a law with security to property, but they thought it could well enough be amended in Committee. Now he wished apon this point particularly to undeceive Noble Londe. He was sere that, after its being allowed to go into Gominie. tee, Noble Lords never would have an opportunity of giving art efficient and decisive opposition to any of the prin. eiWee of the Bill. He knew very well that by some pro bability it might be by come particular clause defeated in Committee, but he knew also, that was this donein tee, might be undone in the report. Suppose, for instance, that the 101. cause by - he assistance of an Earl or Baron, and some others rn the Rev. Bench on the other side of ti e Houste,was defeated in Committee,would there be any diffi culty by a creation of Peers before the Report was brought up, to undo in that report what had thus been done in com mittee ? He wished he cou!d be heard by Noble Lords upon this point because they must be convinced that the mis chief they would do to night by voting for the second reading, could be by no possibility subsequently i.e undone. It might be said, according to what hid taller' from a Right Rev. Prelate, that the King would not he prevailed on to create Peers to carry this measure— but there was a difference of opinion on that sub ject. He agreed with a Right Rev. friend of his who expressed his fear that the King, in the circumstances in which he was placed might be induced, forgetful of that solemn compact which he made in the presence of their Lordships, in the presence of the British public, and in the temple of God, to exercise his prerogative :ir the purpose of depriving the House of Lords of their due legislative privileges. the King of England, it seemed, was placed in new and peculiar circumstances. Times were when Kings and Queens of England might have their own officers about them, let the Parliamentary conduct of those officers bewhat it might. They were considered as exempted from the rule on which persons were deprived of office in consequence of their Parliamentary conduct.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He would ask was there a more effec tual mode of corrupting the House of Peers thin for Ministers not only to dismiss the servants about the person of his Majesty, but even to dismiss the Chamberlain of the Queen? The argument he .lrew from this was, that their Lordships might expect that a King in that situation, having no private friend whom he might consult, no adviser, whose opinion he might ask, and particularly with a Cabinet when armed with the authority of a Right Rev. Prelate, who told them that there would be no violativa of prerogative in a new creation of Peers for the purpose of this Bill ; he said that a King in these circumstances might well be eecused for yielding to do that, which under different cir eumstances he would not. He said this th'i more readily, because when a Noble Friend of his put it the ether night, whether Peera were or were not to be made no answer had been given ; and particularly because in- other place one of his Maj e sty's C a bin e t had argued, at great length, and as he always did, with ability, in favour of a present creation of Peers. The argument he then made ate of showed that a measure was in contemplation to accomplished the unconstitutional act for dividing and destroying the independence of one of the branches of the Legislation, whose independence was essential to his character, and to enable him to discharge los duty to the . country. Let not Noble Lords suppose at they could alter this Bill in Committee. If they were more successful than the most sanguine conceived, they had no security but that the alterations which might be made in Committee would sot again be altered in the report. Many had entertained the opinion that it was fit to go into Committee; a n d t h en to amend it; but if Noble feeds did not prevent the Bill from going into Committee at all, they would do a mischief which it would tie afterwards impossible to remedy.—(Hear, hear.)— He was extremely sorry to observe the opinions that bad been expressed by three of the Right Reverend Bench.— Now with respect to one of them, he thought that the case was quite hopeless ; but be was in hopes the other two might be brought back, and that they might expect his vote in committee and in the third reading. The first Right Reverend Prelate had expressed himself to the strongest terms against this measure, but lie had state'', however, that as he expected no other plan of R e form wou ld h e p r oposed, and as it was evident to him that oreele Referral:wee necessary, he thought it incumbent upon him to make ut his mind. But be was told that the Noble Duke below (Buckingham), had given notice of hi' intention to bring forward a measure of Reform ; he said that that promise bud come too late, for he had made up his mind. Why the Noble ,'Prelate had two days to consider of it, and still toad come down before their Lordships and stated that he had made up his mind. He (Lord Wynford) wa , much surprised at such a statement from a Right Reverend Prelate who had taken the distinguished degrees, that he had done at Cambridge.—(Hear.) He was sure that if that Right Reverend Prelate—in his logical ex iminations in that University, had given such reasons as he had done before their Lordships he would have been placed at the bottom of his class. If the statement of the Right Reverend Prelate were to he taken as fact, what was the inference to be drawn ? Why, that they came down there with their minds made up, and that no arguments, however plausible, would alter them. He must say, notwithstanding the respect he had for the Right Rev. Prelate, that he thought his conduct most extraordinary, and he was in hopes that he would reconsider the subject, and that as he knew a Bill would be brought for ward, to which he did not object, that he would consider that as a sufficient reason why he should vote against the second reading of the present Bill. Another Noble Prelate had said, that if he considered there was dangerous to the Church of Ireland, he would not vote for the second reading of the Bill. He (Lord Wynford) was astonished that the Right Rev. Prelate should think there would be no danger to that church, and he must be allowed to say that he thought he knew very little of the history of it if he considered there was not. He thought it did not require the research of the Right Reverend Prelate, or of any other man, to discover, if the present Bill passed, the Church of Ireland would be wholly destroyed. The Right Rev. Prelate who followed him, thought that this Bill might make some attacks on the externals of the Church. He (Lord W. ) did not understand what the Right Rev. Prelate meant by the word external. The building, it was true, might stand, but he was perfectly persuaded the property be longing to the Church, if that was considered the external, would be destroyed altogether. The Church itself could not be touched, because it had been founded by Him who bad declared that the gates of hell should not prevail against it, but its property would be irrecoverably lost. Another thing which had fallen from that Right Rev. Prelate had exceedingly surprised him t be bad stated that he thought the present Bill so good that it would require very little alteration. If such were the opinions of that Right Rev. Prelate why did he not vote against the Bill which was introduced last year. But if he (Lord Wynford) felt surprised as this, his astonishment was exceeded by the statement that these who were not of the same opinion as him self were in his mind influenced by factious motives. Such an observation'was unworthy of an English Bishop or an English gentleman. A Noble Marquess, speak ing of the Right Rev. Prelate who made so excellent a speech, had called him by an epithet he could not understand. After that he had made some observations that had fallen from him with respect to France. When he stated that the French Revolution had been accomplished without violence, the Noble Marquess in reply to him had stated, that it had been accomplished by no thing but violence, that it had arisen in consequence of what had taken place in Parliament, end that such a thing could never occur in this country. He begged to state to their Lordships, that what the English Parliament were now doing would lead to the same reslut. The Tiers Etat exited in France, he believed, in 1769, and lie would take on himself to say, that they had acted in such a manner as would he closely followed by a Reformed Parliament. In fact, the Tiers Etat in France was equivalent to a Reformed Parliament in England, and was there any of their Lordships who believed, or could say that the Tiers Etat had not been the cause of the revolution in France.—(Hear, heir.) And be would again repeat that by the passing of this Bill, the same scenes would be produced in England. Those times bore a resemblance to the present. In France they lavished praise on the King in as great a degree as was now done by the Radicals and Reformers of England, and what was the result ? The Revolution followed, with all its attendant horrors, its murders, and its before unheard of crimes. The Noble Marquess (Lansdowne) had alluded to the Con stitution of America, and said that we had no such system of representation ; but he would contend that we had under this Bill. It had also been stated as an argu ment against the present system of cur representation, that these nomination boroughs were useless,—were, in f .ct, more than useless. But it had been well stated that the wings of this country were larger than its body, and how those were to be represented under this new Constitution, he, for one, could not find out. But that, he considered, was the use of them, as we at pre sent stood. The Noble Marquess had said, that by the common law of the country the right of voting was in the householder, where that law was not contra vened by statute. But he defied the Noble Marquess to produce any hook in whieh that doctrine was to be found. He had searched many, and all that he found in them was, that the right of voting was in the freeholders. This, he contended, did away with what bad la•en stated, that this Bill was only bringing back the Constitution to its former Mate. The Noble and Learned Lord begged to quote Mad dox as an authority against the right of voting being in householders; and in that work there were twenty authori ties referred to. If this were so, then this Bill gave a right to householders never before recognised by the common law of the land. He thought it absurd to talk of there being any common law right in the subject in consequence of being a householder. In every town the right of voting was different. In some where they were freeholders and householders, the right was in respect of their freehold ; where they were landholders and householders, ti.e right was in respect of their land ; where they were tradesmen and freemen, the right was given in respect of their freedom' It was, therefore, perfectly absurd to talk of householders being the persons who had a right to rote. Sovereigns had, undoubtedly, from time to time conferred the right of voting in certain persons in certain places, wherever they had thought it right, until at last they had got together a constituency which preserved the liberties of the country, and must continue until altered by some power heretofore unknown. To avert such an inroad on the Constitution of the country, it was absolutely incumbent on their Lordships to exert themselves. The Noble Marquess opposite had said in the course of his address to that House, that a system of Reform must consist of disfranchisement and enfranchisement. He (Lord Wynford) did not admit that position. There might be many systems of Reform introduced without either em bodying disfranchisement or enfranchisement, and their Lordships had no right to disfranchise until they knew the persons whom they were going to disfranchise had abused the trust reposed in them, for until they had abused that trust, their right was just as good as any man's right to any other property throughout the country. He would be able to chew that if this Bill passed into a law the whole Legislative power of the country would be put into the hands not of landholders, not of master manufacture, but of the journey men. He would show that neither this Bill nor any thing like it ought to be passed into a law. He had not the least hesitation in consenting to a moJerete alteration in the constituency of the country. He thought that changes of .circumstances had rendered it extremely necessary that :such a Bill (that is to say, a moderate Reform Bill) should be laid on their Lordships' table; but if this Bill passed into a law—the Bill now before their Lordships, it would be impossible to prevent there being an end to the Constitution. In looking to the preamble of the Bill, it was evident that there were various abuses not touched upon. Bribery and corruption were not once mentioned in it. On the contrary,brihery and corruption would be encouraged by it ; therefore, if it ,passed into a law ; at least be hoped the title would be so altered as not to leave it a Bill for the encouragement of those practices. The Bill pro fessed to correct abuses. In the first place there was nothing in it, as he bad said, to prevent bribery. It deprived many inconsiderable places of the right to return Members to Parliament.—(Hear. ) He did not know what power their Lordships had to do this. The right of voting was a right anciently and com pletely vested in those who exercised it ; and if they did anything to forfeit that right, why did their Lordships not act as they had hereto ore done by taking the right frmn them and bestowing it upon others. What right, then, had their Lordships, he inquired, to take from inconsiderable places the right of re turning Members, particularly when their Lord ships took upon themselves to dt. ci 'le what were or what were not inconsiderable places in the manner they had done? They had called places inconsiderable places where there were 300 voters living. Many places in achedule A contained no leas than three hundred voters. Many other places contained one hundred voters, and yet their Lordships did not propose to unite those places so as to continue among then, the right of voting, but entirely to take their vet s from them. In this way several places in. schedule A were to he disfranchised, which he hoped he never should see effected. He knew, indeed, that the legislature had power to do arty thing bat to make a man, as it had been :aid ; but whatever prose, O might have, its power would never lead their Lordships to the ve measurepassing of b a more a o a a l r e w or be a fe re more the o t destruc tive He objected to the disfran c hisement of places which had than the always exercised their franehisa purely. And he was con fident that by extending the franchise to large and popu lous towns, they would a l so e xtend the practice of bribery and corruptie in crease the The Bill then professed to the number of knights of the shire. Now, he asked them what weight would the knights of the shire have in the scale against the representatives for cities and boroughs. There were to be 157 knights of the shire, and about 330 representatives of towns. Supposing the latter to represent fairly the interests of the towns, what chance had the landed interest—the most important in this country, and which was suffering so deeply at this moment ? What chance, sup. posing those 157 county Members all to represent the county interests,—what ch ance h a d th e y against the 300 and odd who would represent the towns? If any man looked at the alteration of the right of voting, and at the divisions of the counti es , h e must b e s t ruc k with the suspicion that the landed interest would be left un represented. For even in the counties there was as great constituency in favor of the other interests as the landed in terest. They were to have a new class of voters in the copy_ holders andleaseholders, and he begged their Lordships to consider how many were to he found in towns, and then to ask themselves what security was offered them by this Bill in favour of the landed interest. He would affirm that one half of the county constituency would lie in the town a He would t a k e , for i ns t ance , th e county o f Warwick,in which Birmingham and Warwick were thrown into one di vision of the county, leaving the aericultural interest in the other division. Ile asked, what would the agri cultural interest say to the northern division of tha country ? They would be thrown entirely out of the scale. Let the country he divided as it would, so grant an influence had the large towns, that the landed In terest would be wholly neglected.—(Hear.) If the towns were shut out a lt oge th er f rom the counties, and if one were not to interfere with another, then he admitted that his argument would be of no avail. He would ask their Lordships to look at Kent, and say what became of the rural freeholders of the western division of that county, in which were Woe Itvich, Greenwich, and Maidstone. The freeholders in those towns would greatly outnumber the rural free holders, and at least one half the country, which formerly and at this time represented the landed interest, would lose sight of that interest under the Reform Bill. He would next advert to the extension of the elective franchise,which, so far from being an extension of the franchise, would, in his opinion, take it away from people of property, and give it to those who had none. Undoubtedly, if there bad been a distinction made between the house holders of one town and those of another, then his obser vations would not apply. But if they looked at Liverpool, it had been proved by a Bill brought into Parliament, that many of the 101. householders were mere paupers. This was the case in many of the larger towns. And he was confident that the clause would only have the effect of increasing the system of bribery. Then it was said the Bill was intended to diminish the expense of elections. How was that to be effected ? Not by :diminishing bribery, for there was no provision in the Bill against it; but it was asserted that by having the elections at various places it would diminish the expense. It was known the greatest expense was incur re d b y erect i ng h ust i ngs and employing poll-clerks and agents. By this Bill, therefore, that expense would be greatly increased, for their must be hustings, poll clerks and agents at each place of election. The Noble and Learned Lord next adverted to the increase in the repre sentation of Scotland and Ir. land, which was robbing Eng land to enrich Scotland and Ireland. The Union with Scot land had made that country happy and flourishing, and she was grateful for our protection, but she did not want the Referin now tendered her. The best informed per sons in that country were against any alteration in the present system of representation. He trusted in Gad that no occasion would be given by such a measure, and such discussions for breaking up that union, which had been productive of so much mutual happiness and prosperity, and had given unitedly to the whole body that degree of strength, that he was afraid if such a Bill as the present passed into a law would soon be destroyed. He was quite stare that no Scotchman or Irishman was desirous of having those al terations which this Bill proposed, because they were wise enough to know that when innovation began it was difficult to put a stop to it. For if alterations were made to-day which seemed to be in their favour, it would establish a prece cedent which would he productive of mischief. it was in finitely better that they should proceed in the same man ner that they had heretofore, and upon those principles which had been productive of such glorious result in happi ness to the people, respect and dignity to the throne, security to property, and even of incalculable advantages, which had extended beyond Britain itself. There was an al teration in the right of voting introduced by the present Bill which, as it was not to he found in any other statute, nor based on the market value of the tenement, but merely on the supposed value which the tenant might affix was altogether anomalous, and would be productive of extensive mischief. The landed interest would be substantially destroyed, and stripped at least of half the county members, who under the old system represented it. Much had been said of the union between the agricultural and other in terests of the country; and sure he was, that on the prosperity of the landed interests depended that of the other interests—and sure be was that though they had to deal with person s who looked only to a measure as it immediately affected theinselvee. The landed interest would be reduced to a state of the greatest possible daeger if this Bill passed into a law, a Right Rev. Prelate had complained of the appeals which had been made to the Right Reverend Bench on the other side of the House. He had never appealed to them in a disrespectful or threatening manner ; but feeling very deeply the importance of the interests of the Church, he could not but observe, that its temporalities in a great measure depended upon the landed interest. There was another circumstance to which he felt his duty to allude. One of his objections to this Bill was, that it was an insulated measure, which affected in its consequences the whole kingdom— Great Britain, Scotland, and Ireland. The three hills ought to have been united, fur it was impossible for any man whatever to judge of the effects of the whole, without considering the particular effect of each. Considering that this particular Bill might be proper for England if it had been separate from Scotland and Ireland, it would become a different question how it would act with regard to Scotland, aid Ireland formed a part of the same Government. It might I.e said that the Church of England was strongly guarded, but the Church of Ire land could not fall without the Church of England. He need not dwell on the consequences which would result from a great number of Roman Catholic Members under the Irish Bill getting into the House of Commons. The Church establishiornt in Ireland would ultimately be entirely destroyed, and he called upon the Right Reve rend Bench opposite, duly to consider what effect this would have upon Church property in England. He called on their Lordships to defeat this Bill on be half of those who had a great interest in it, but who were necessarily absent. He called on them to do so on behalf of those towns that were to lose the fran chise, and out of whose power it was to defend them 'dye. On behalf of the East India interest, those interests were very great ; and if this Bill passed, he, for one, would be glad that he was not responsible in any degree for the consequences that might follow. He called on their Lordships, for God's sake, topause, before they passed a Bill for Reform in Parliament, which he expected would have, and he believed must have, the effect of losing us those great colonise. He called on them to reject the Bill on account of the West India interest. It was well known to their Lord ; ships that the Englishmen who had left their hones for the purpose of settling in those islands, were not well pleased at the conduct of those who were now at t, e head of affairs, and he begged that the effect of this Reformed Parliament might be taken into serious consider ation by their Lordships, before they gave their sanction to this Bill. It would not fail to lead to a considera tion of the question of Slavery ; and recent events had shown that the state of mind in those islands would not allow that question to be tampered with. Their Lordships had been told that this all must pass, or revolution must follow. He was sorry those who had used such language had not been brought to the bar of the House, or rather that another course had not been taken, and those utter ing such libels on the country had not been putiishe al by the laws. Their Lordships were not to be fa ielitened into giving their assent to this Bill, because they were told that thousands of the people were reads , to march to London on the rejection of the Bill. He knew the character of their Lordships too well to give credence to the charge brought against them, that they would vote against their own op i n i on, throM.l, the fear of being thought afraid. He was one that had always thought some alterations ought to be made in the sta e of our representation. And he h a d h oped such alterations would have been introduced in another place, so ma., to ero.!ure peace in the country, satisfy th e people and yet be safe' to: the Constitution. e still reta i ned those opinions, and though the char cter of a bit. hy-bit Reformer had been much deprecated, still he thought that that plan wa, the only safe way of legislating on this subject. Having beers disappointed iu his hops of such 4 pl an b,inz introduced in the House of Commons, he had been happ! .0 hear the notice given by the Noble Duke on a former eight; for, from what he could collect from the explanation .riven by the Noble Duke ; the plan would be such :IS would enable him to give the Bill his support. He fully believed that the country would give its support to the Bill of his Noble Friend, for it would see—the treat interests of the country would see—that it went en a conservative principle, and did not, like the present one, disfranchise thousands of those who were at present in possession of it. But would this Bill satisfy the towns? He was certain it would not; for he held in his hand a resolution passed at a meeting of what was called the Council of a Political Union, in which they stated that they would be satisfied with no plan which did not give them annual parliaments, vote by ballot, and no property qualification. They further stated that no other plan would introduce intelligent men into the House of Commons, from the productive classes of society. The ten pound franchise, as it would operate in many towns, would give the right of voting to paupers, yet here was a sample of what was to be expected, even yet it did not please the fob tical unionist who so flourished in the large towns. The case would then be, that their Lordshipe would not have gentlemen of fortune and education, who would be able to discharge their duties in Parliament, but they would have what the unions to which he referred wanted, persons of the lower orders, who would be totally unfit to discharge their duties in Parliament. If evidence were ,wanted to prove the impropriety of a Bill like the present, he would request their Lordships to look at what an American writer had stated. That writer, speak ing of the last Bill—and he (Lord Wynford) was prepared to prove that the present Bill was by for the worst, and the moment it passed into a law it would become an entailed curse upon the country,—that writer had stated, that enlist all the press in its cause, if you please, the havoc that it would produce within a short time would be lamentable in the extreme. The only real Reform that was wanted in the country was the lightening the oppressions of the poor, which were inflicted upon them by the pre sent Poor Laws of the country. Those were the laws that most wanted Reform. If the poor wanted to know what was the effect of Parliamentary Reform— the effect of visionary alterations—let them look to the state of France and Belgium.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Could any poor man wish for Reform when it would pro duce such effects as had been pointed out in those countries ? Such results were not the supposition of any theoretical writer, but in France and Belgium they had been proved by prac t'co. He was afraid that he had occupied too much of their Lordships' time, and he omitted many things what he ought to have mentioned. He felt most earnestly on this question, and was every day more and more convinced that the moment it passed into a law it would produce the ruin of the best interests of the country, and the total destruction of every thing that was valuable to its people. If they thought by going into Committee, the evils which existed the present Bill would be remedied, he would cheerfully agree to the adoption of its course. He hoped in what he had said he had prevailed on those Members of the Rieht Rev. Bench, to which he had adds eased himself, to return to their duties to that church of which in that House they were the guardians. In conclusion, he implored Noble Lords, as they valued themselves, their property, and the happiness and prosperity of their country to reject the Bill. Lord DURHAM was anxious to rise at this moment to state his opinions to the House, because be still laboured under such a painful indisposition that he feared if lie delayed his purpose to a later period he should be unable to undergo the fatigue of addressing them, and therefore he trusted that their Lordships would excuse him if he trespassed on their attention for a few minutes. He hail listened with the greatest attention to the able speech of the Noble and Learned Lord, and if any interruption bad been given him from that side of the House, be could assure the Noble Lord that it was not with the intention to interrupt him in the course of his argument, but for the purpose of putting him right as to certain fects.—(Hear, hear.) That Noble Lord's speech appeared to him to be divided into two parts, and relating to subjects which he conceived had very little to do with the present question, and therefore he (lid not see that he was called upon to follow him upon these topics; nor was he called upon to follow the Noble Lord into all those de tails into which he had gone, because he conceived that they were infinitely more fit for the Committee than for discussion upon the second reading.—(Hear, hear.) In that belief he was borne out by the Noble Lord himself, for he stated, that believing the Bill would not go into Committee, he deemed it right to take the pre sent opportunity of iliscussing it. A-, however, he (Lord Durham) was of opinion that the Bill would go into Com mittee, he should not deem it necessary to follow the Noble and Learned Lord in discussing the details upon the present occasion, but would merely advert to them very briefly.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He was however, amply repaid for the patience with which he had listened to the Noble and Learned Lord, by finding that he did not adopt that tone and temper of angry and party feeling which dis tinguished a speech that was delivered on the last night of the debate. He was sorry to say they had a different temper exhibited upon that occasion from the Right Rev. Bench, for in a speech delivered by a Right Rev. Prelate, a false charge was made against Government; besides which, there were instances of the greatest distortions of historical facts, and the Right Rev. Prelate had indulged in some of his beauties of pamphleteering slang.—(Here there were im mense cries of " Order, order !" " Retract!" " Take down the words," &c. &c., which continued so long that the Noble Lord sat down. In the midst of the confusion—) The Eat' of WINCHILSEA rose, and, as well as we could hear, he was understood to say that personalities of the description which they had just hearth, ill became the dignity of that House, the more especially when they were used by Ministers of the Crown to wards a Member in the situation of the Right Rev. Prelate.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Lord HOLLAND said the Noble Earl had risen to speak to order, and he wished the Noble Earl to state whether any and what motion be intended to make, for lie (Lord Holland) was perfectly at is loss to know what the question before the House was. If the Noble Earl wished to speak in an orderly manner upon the asperity of the language which had been used by the Noble Lord (Durham) Ire knew there was a rule of the House which he could resort to, and therefore it was to be hoped the Noble Earl would confine himself to the question, and not use such language as he had just addressed to the House.—( Hear, hear.) The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose and said—l now move, my Lords, that the words " pamphleteering, slang" and " false" be taken down.—(Cheers from Opp: sitionn Earl GREY said lie apprehended that the parti cular words complained of, however harsh they migh he to the Noble Earl's ears, might be used pet fectly honestly and properly ; they depended in a great measure upon their application. As to the objection to the ward false, he knew that in some cases no word could be more objectionable, but here it was stated that the Right Reverend Prelate's speech was merely full of false deductions from historical facts. As to the words " pamphleteering slang," it might be that a person spoke in his usually flowery pamphleteering slang, and yet there might be nothing inconsistent in using those words.—(ob, oh, from the Opposition.) If the Noble intisted in having the words token down, it would be unfair to single out particular epithets without their application, and therefore the whole sentence ought to be taken down at the sante time.—(Hear, hear.) Lord HOLLAND said the usual course was to take the w ords down, and then put it to the Noble Lord who uttered them whether those were the precise words. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought the best way was for the Noble Lord (Durham) to state to the House whether he used the words offensively or not. At the same titne he would personally suggest to the Noble Lord the propriety of reconsidering his expressions.—(Hear.) Lord DURHAM said he had been interrupted by the Noble Earl (Winchilsea) in the course of a sentence, but as it scented to lie the wish of many of their Lordships that his words should be taken dawn, he begged to state he had no objection whatever to such a course. It the House, however, wished to know why he had used the words, and how he applied thew, he would state it. Whether the words " pamphleteering slang" suited the taste of the Noble Eetl opposite, or whether lie might have used some more elegant language, he would not now enter upon ; but he felt he was justified in using the words complained of. The Right Rev. Prelate had thrown out an insinuation on the last night of the de flate against Ministers in such terns respecting the public Press has rendered it absolute!: necessary for him to answer it. That insinuation w so couched, that it would be wrong in him to deny that he knew that it was not applied to himself. It had been made publicly, and circulated through various portions of the public press. When he found such a change made, as that nobody, particularly the Members of that House, could doubt that it applied to him, he took the first opportunity that presented itself, to declare the! it was false and scandalous.— ( Hear, and cries of " Order.") Having said thus much, lie would now wait to see if the wends were taken down. [The Noble Lord then sat down, and there were loud cries of " the Bishop of Exeter"—" Question"--and " Go on." The latter predominated, and, after a short pause, the Noble Lord rose again, and said—] Il it we, I the intention of the Right Rev. Prelate to address the House on what had just passed, be could take that opportunity when he (Lord Durham) had concluded. hut he would never shrink from stating what was the fact and what was nut tre fact, regarding the atrocioue calumnies that had been circulated respecting him. It was distressing to a mind already gently affected by private griefs and domestic misfortunes, to be subjected to such calumnies, (Loud cheers)—and therefore he trusted their Lordships would excuse the warmth into which he had been betrayed. Government had been charged as having agitated the public mind on this subject, and thus occasioning an extravagant demand for Reform.—(Hear.) Now on what facts Noble Lords founded this opinion, he was at a loss to conceive. —(Hear.) If there had been one subject more than another specially discussed within the last fifty years, that subject undoubtedly. was, Reform in Parliament. It had been brought for ward by the most eminent men of whom this country could boast, ever since the presentation of the Yorkshire petition in 1783. It had been taken up, with more or less energy according to the circumstances of the times, but it always bore a high place in the estimation of the people. It had been brought forward by the Duke of Richmond, by Mr. Pitt, Mr. Flood, by his Noble relation at the head of the Govern ment, by Lord A. Hamilton, and Lord John Rus sell, during a rapid series of years, from 17k2 to the present time. So that the Noble Lords to say that this feeling was one of later growth, or that it owed its origin to the French or Belgian revolutions, was stating what all history and fact notoriously 'contradicted. That it had assumed a more formidable appearance within the last five or six years, he was ready to admit ; but not that it was owing to the causes to which they had ascribed it.—(Hear.) It was owing to the refusal of that House to grant repre sentation to Leeds, Manchester, and Birmingham, when an opportunity had presented itself. It was owing to the exposures that had taken place, in the cases of Penrhyn and East Retford, laying bare scenes of the most gross corruption and bribery ; but owing above all to the middle classes of this country having identified themselves with the question.— He wished for a few moments to call attention to this point, because in its full consideration was in aolved one of the great leading principles of this Bill—be alluded to the emancipation of those classes for the purpose of showing the anxety of the feel ing which exists, and the little prospect there is for the middle classes being satisfied with any degree of emancipation short of that proposed by this Bill. Noble Lords were too well read in history not to be aware that up to the Revolution of 1688 the struggle al ways was to prevent the Crown from assuming despotic power, and the conflict ever since had been between two parties aiming at political power, the Crown always being at their mercy, and the people not interfering, but, well or ill governed, according with the principles of the conquering party. For a long time the people had acquiesced in the supremacy of the higher orders, con scious of their own incompetency from the want of education to enjoy political influence. They felt no jealousy, and offered no opposition to the monopoly en joyed by the higher orders, but affairs had assumed another aspect. A great change had taken place. The two streams had been flowing on, or rather while the one stood still, the other had been progressively increasing. In truth, the middle classes had so increased of late in skill, talent, intelligence, and wealth, that they felt they were competent to the performance of higher functions.—(Hear, hear.) And these just and national feelings of ambition were no longer to be enclosed within the narrow bounds of human seclusion, or they would lead to the annihilation of those feeble restraints by which they were confined. That the middle clause,' bad a right to indulge in these no one could doubt. As to their wealth, they were no such paupers as had been represented by the Noble Duke, the Noble proprietor of St. Mawes. Their wealth had increased so much that it was more than double or treble that of the higher orders; and to be convinced of their extent, they had only to look to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, ice. By whom would Noble Lords find the in stitutes, the literary societies, the charities, in short, all associations tending to the advancement of literature, science, and the amelioration of mankind, supported and maintained, but by the efforts, example, and purse of these middle classes of society ? The gentry might live apart indeed ; but when they came together on public occa sions to discuss political subjects,the superiority of the gentry was no longer manifest ; and he would assure the Noble Duke who moved the amendment to the Bill, that whatever opinion he might entertain on the superiority and intelligence of those who had been returned at the last election, if he attended a meeting and entered into a discussion with the middle classes of society, he would have no reason any longer to plume himself on any fancied superiority. But the question very naturally asked was, whether that was a right and proper state of things which ex cluded a large body of Englishmen, possessed of skill, talent and wealth, merely because they did not happen to be included in a particular class invested with privileges bestowed upon them at different periods of the history of the constitution ? Now the existence of these feelings sufficiently accounted for the desire which those classes had to enjoy the advantages as well as share the bur dens of the State ; and that it does exist to a great degree no man in his senses could deny. Did they who virtually represent them, as the Noble and Learned Lord who had just spoken had stated, performed the duties of their situation? The answer which the people of England had uniformly given to that question was—No. If their Lordships compared the state of things now with the state of things some time ago, they must be convinced that before the late war the National debt amounted to sixteen millions--at the end of the war, in 1814, it amounted to nearly eight hundred millions. The national expenditure, which pre viously was five millions and a half, increased to ninety-four, The poor-rates increased from one million to seven millions ; and in one reign—that of George the Third—no less than twenty-seven millions of money were lavished away on Foreign subsidiaries, and owing to the luxuries of indulging in war, the naval and military expenditure of the country had amounted to no less than a hundred mil lions sterling. Acts were pissed in Parliament suppressing the Habeas Corpus Act—fetttering the Press—(Cheers)— and many others equally obnoxious. Those Acts were proposed by the House of Commons, and subsequently passed by their Lordships ; and, however grateful such Acts might have been to the Noble Duke opposite, they had not been so to the people. In the result, the ptople, find. ing themselves fettered by the conduct of the House of Com mons—the House of Commons theoretically representing the people but substantially doing any thing rather than repre senting them, the attention of the people became naturally directedwrha twasto t t h h e e e m e ta n y , e in u e w n e h e i c e h f t t h h e e i . H q u o i u r s y e was il e c y o n fe s u t i n t d u t e e n d part of it nominated by trafficking attorneys ; another part owing its return to unblushing bribery—another to the owners of rotten boroughs and so on ; and in this way one part of the country with no population all, or next to no population at all, returning no less than three Members, while a town, consisting of about two hundred thousand inhabitants, returned no Member at all ; and that part of the House which was supposed to he returned ley the public, so fettered, so hampered, so circumscribed by the expenditure that had taken place, as to be altogether ineffectual in doing any good. The Noble Lord now referred to a statement made by Mr. Burke, respecting the constitution of the House of Parliament, and be thought he had stated reasons sufficient to account for the intense feeling which existed throughout the country at the present moment on the subject now before their Lordships. From whatever cause that excitement or interest had arisen, he was perfectly confident that it never could be allayed by any means short of a full and generous compliance with the wishes of the country. Here he was met by Noble Lords opposite, who talked of time dangers of concession ; and also the declaration of the Rev. 'Bishop made the other night that their Lordships were bound to leave the consequences to God. He would esk what the result had been when the consequence had been left, lie would rather to say to providence than to God ?—(Loud cheers.) Was the result of history to be for ever sealed to the eyes of NoWe Lords opposite ? Were its pages to be for ever perverted by the Reverend Bishops ?—(Chsers.) Was it not clear that repeated resistance had never pro ' duced any thing but renewed and double energy on the part of the people, when their complaints and requests had been laid before Parliament? Would asserted ion preve of fm y e liy6 m 4sc aL lev i ,e ir til e oi s dn u presume it t l o e, r.s haveef te beenthat ould apnt prevented e ntnt r ae e d. l tell that the French Revolution of 1785 could not have been t only have preserved people the King of France might no nted tha b t y by co c n t c m es c s es io s n ion So, with respect and his crown, but his head.—(Cheers.) He keeping g rd fai D th . ) wi b t t h oa t d i !y: that ted by y y the the Noble Baron on time opposite side. If England, after the repeal of the Stamp . have been derived from destroyed all the benefits to andsome one or to the North American Revolution, as it ' h A a c d t, be h. e a n d ably two more act 3, declaratory act, North America country. still have been in connexion w . th his vu There fore, when consequences had been left to God, nothin g but bloody struggrees useless expenditure, and, finally, unlimited eoriceseions I; ed been the result,-(Cheers.) this I With respect to the measure now before tbe Floe . s , I Noble Lord, calculated the comparative amount or a hers? On the one side was theCrown,the House of Commas, .itid the country—on the other, were 200 Peers.—(llear, hear.) Well then, supposing their Lordships rejected this Bill again, and the -people acquiesced-in tliat'rejeetiOn, and that their feeling did not instantaneously break out, what would be the punishment to their Lordships if they Iwere forsaken by the people? What would their Lordships think of themselves, if they were left entirely to themselves —or if they had, to have their mansions fortified ? (Laugh ter.) Noble Lords might laugh, but there was one Noble Duke opposite at the moment, who had been obliged for a considerable time past to have, and who had at this instant his house fortified. What then, he would repeat his question, would their Lordships think, if they had to have their dwellings fortified, and their per sons protected by troops, which, when the hour of danger came, would all prove to be perfectly useless.—(Loud cheering.) He saw in iny Noble Lords whose return into various parts of the country he well knew was welcomed by the congratulations of surrounding neighbourhoods ; but would they con. tinue to be received with equal complacency if they continued to destroy the long wished for benefits desired by those very neighbourhoods? Welcoming and affection would be turned into disgust, and the re tention of certain rotten boroughs would afford but poor consolation for what they might naturally expect to lose and to receive. He confessed that he saw nothing but dangers attending the rejection of this measure— nothing but what would be calculated to destoy the harmony and good will which ought to exist between their Lordships and the people. It was under this conviction that e l o es t t o ry ; sßeforma .Ministers large.—(Lott) a his coll eagues and himself agreed upon bringing forward this Bill. B e li ev i ng the claims of the people were just, his l%aj n y gaes._w o(svuLle,oirt at e il anxious oenhceeeribneg t .s o r i g s r f a aff n c et t o i such measureathe u already stated that this was not the time at which it would be proper to enter into a detailed examina tion of the provisions of the proposed Bill.—(Hear hear, hear.) The alterations that had been introduced into this Bill, so as to differ it from the last, had been most satisfactorily and most clearly explained by the Noble Earl at the head of the present Government.—(Hear.) The great and leading principles of the Bill were the disfranchisement of all nomination boroughs--th e pu rification of the small boroughs —the enfranchisement of large towns, and an endeavour to prevent the great expense attending elections. Notwi t h stand i ng, he did not conceive this to he the fittest opportunity for entering into the details of this Bill. As on a former night a Noble Earl—an Earl of this House, ' lad Marquess of Ireland, in allusion to a portion of those details which he (Lord D.) was more particularly ac quainted with, made some remarks affecting his character, he deemed it necessary to make a few observations on that point. The Noble Earl to whom be alluded, pro fessing to have greet respect for him, had declared that he (Lord Durham) had been guilty of a gross fraud, and pledged himself able to prove it, as regarded the arrangements in the Bill with respect to Durham and its neighbourhood. How the Noble Marquess or Earl could entertain any respect for a person who could have been guilty of any such improper conduct, he really did not know.—( Hear, and cheers.) Whatever the Noble Earl's respect for him might be, he could only de clare that if he had acne' as it had been imputed to him, he could no longer entertain any respect for himself. He (Lord Durham) would pledge himself to prove that in all the arrangements connected with Durham there was not in that county one town with privileges conferred upon it that could not be defended upon the principles of population, wealth, and in telligence.—(Cheers.) If their Lordships were to disfranchise any of those towns, they would be bound on the same principle to disfranchise a great netny others which were actually to receive new Mernbere.—( Hear.) He disclaimed from his heart and soul that he had either procured, or endea voured to procure, any interest for himself in the ar augments respecting Durham; and if he had in any way attempted to do so, the constituency would be so formed as would entirely defeat his object.—(Cheers.) With regard to what had been stated as to Tavistock and Christchurch, by referring to the returns it would appear that both the comparative population and wealth of the two totally negatived all what had been said respecting them on the other side of the House. Be fore sitting down he wished to notice an observation that bed been made by the Noble and Learned Lord respecting the expenses of elections—that Noble Lord had said that under the new system those those expenses would be greatly increased. He (Lord D.) had had the mis fortune to have encountered a most severe contested election, and which had cost him, as he believed he had once stated before, about 80,0001. He also believed that his Noble Frieed behind him, if he thought proper, would be able to state that that very election had cost him a considerable deal more.—(Hear, and laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord had said, that the expenses arose from the agents and poll-clerks. Now he (Lord Durham) denied that the expenses would be increased by this measure, or that they were incurred by the agents and poll-clerks. The heavy expenses attending elections had, heretofore, been incurred by the bringing of voters up to the poll and their sub sistence.—(Hear.) For three days before the elec tion took place, as well as on the day of the election to which he had just adverted, the expense of merely providing ; for his voters had been a thousand pounds A DAY ! He was confident, therefore, that by doing away with the necessity of having to convey voters distances,e-is o use bills and which had obviating been necessity hithe rto havin g incurred ur d e the large r public-pause great a great and essential benefits w ou ld b e accompl i shed. There had been many other cir cums t ances entered i nto s by the Noble Lord, which he would not now travel through, as he hoped and trust e d th at t h e i r L or d sh i ps would allow this Bill to go int o C omm i ttee, b ut be would pledge himself, if there was any thing in the Bill that bore the appearance of giving an undue influence, there were no persons on earth more anxious than the Noble Earl at the head of the Government and the rest of the Ministers to make every alteration that would tend to such a result. For all the reasons he had stated, and for the interest and prosperity of the country, he hoped and trusted that their Lordships would pass the Bill. He thought that he could not do better than conclude in the words of an illustrious statesman, whose principles he venerated, and whose example be always endeavoured to fol low, by saying_" We rest our all on this Bill; we risk all most dear; a ll th a t men e i ther feel or care fora character for integ r ity an d h onour.-- permanent reputation in future times which was most precious to us; we fix ourselves on a constitutional basis, and on the rock of England we place the equity and wisdom of this measure."—(Tremendous cheering.) The Bishop of EXETER having been attacked by the Noble Baron who had just eat down, with having made false assertions against him, begged the indulgence of their Lordships while he offered a few words in explanation. All that he had said last night with re spect the letter which had appear. d in the Times newspaper, that it was supposed to have been obtained by that paper through the medium of some person who was connected with Government—but he had not said a single word of the Treasury—(Hear, hear,) because he meant to exclude the Noble Earl at the head of that department.—(Hear.) When be put it that way, he by no means meant to fix it on any individual in particular, but he had no hesitation in saying, in his own mind, that the rumours circulated respecting the Noble Baron, were nut unlikely to be true.—(Hear, hear, bear.) But in the observations that he had made he had spokeu generally of its having been given, as he believed, by a per son connected with the Government; but he had perticularly avoided expressing any thing positive at the time. The only instance he bad referred to as connected with the Times appeared in that paper about five or six weeks ago, at which time there was e statement in tbet paper of a correspondence having taken piece with N I i r u e b c i t e allusion D uke a n d t o h a i s A u i p a j p e o s s t e y d , a Noble Duke opposite (Buckingliem). He hot el he would forgive him for alluding t o hi m in the manner he had done, but in the Times n ewspaper, about the 23d Duke' s sun an d hi s M a j esty '. Secretary. That correspondence appeared to have been andof correspondence aanalso l b as e t tw e tl e l b n e t e t h w e e " e ' between Noble thata stated with such particularity that he thought it appeared likely that the inf ormat i on bad been given to that paper through the me di um of some parties who had access to the corr e sp on d ence; and it appeared to him more likely to have been obtainted from souse person who had access to Government Papers, than from the Noble Duke.... (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that, as he had been particularly adverted to, he must offer a few words to their Lordships. In his capacity of a Peer of the Realm, he had written a letter to his Sovereign, whi: h was given to his Majesty's secretary— that being the usual way of communieatiag With the King. Oi that letter he had given lei copy,he had read it but to two of his own family, and then only parts of it—that letter be had been informed by his Majesty's secretary had be en p l ace d by the command of his Majesty in the ',ands of his Prime Minister, and parts of that letter had been put verbatim into the Times newspeper.—(Tre mendous cheering.) Earl GREY was very sorry that so important a debate ~. ..