The Sun. — London, England, 1832-01-27 00:00:00

he Dutch nation—a union which has heretoforeheen considered as greatly - conducive to the security of both States, and as the best support of the liberties of Etirope ; and which is still not only agreeable to their respective interests, but essential to their common welfare. " That to dictate a treaty to the Dutch Government, by which the interests of HollMd are so deeply affected, and to compel that Government to accept it without modification, we cannot but consider as unjust, and as likely to prove fatal to the maintenance of that ancient and intimate alliance which has so happily subsisted between the two countries. " Humbly; therefore, to pray that his Majesty will be gra ciously pleiised to issue such directions as may render the said treaty in the articles above referred to more consistent with the regard which is due to the honour of his Majesty's Crown, to the security of our own permanent interests, and to the just claims of his Majesty's faithful and natural ally." Earl GREY said, that the Noble Lord who had just sat down, in the long and aide address he had just delivered, h et set out with acknowledging that his motion was one of an e xtraerdinary nature, and such as could not be justi fied but by the most pressing circumstances. That admis sion the Noble Lord could not help making, when he set out with declaring that his obj ec t was t o prev e nt th e exe cution of a treaty—an object in which he would be justi fied, if he believed that all the proceedings he had related deserved the charac•er lie had ascribed to them—proceed ings which, sifter a long and laborious investigation, had been brought to a conclusion, and on which had depended the peace of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl had stated that the interests of England had been sacrificed— the honour of the Crown degraded—that there were no interests of any kind whatever which had not been affected by this treaty ; and all this he imputed to his M . ajesty's Ministers, and chiefly to the individual who had then the honour to address them. He had given the Ministers much credit for great power and influence, if be supposed that, having the object he described—namely, the object of suoiticing an Incient Ally—theycould influenceall the other members of the Conference having interests no less strong than our own connected with Holland and with the safety of Europe, and being no less than ourselves influenced by those prejudices and feelings of old association, which might have been some security to the Noble Earl that such a course could not be pursued. He said the Noble Earl gave them credit for great power indeed, if he supposes! they could make all the other members of the Conference concur with England in a treaty, the object of which was to de stroy the independence and power of Holland, and to ag grandize the power of France.—(Hear.) Yet that was the object which the Noble Earl imagined the Ministers to have pursued with their eyes open, and which he imagined also they had made all the other Powers of Europe sup port them in. In pursuing his argument, lie had compared the conduct of his 31,1jesty l a Ministers with that of the Ministers of Charles 11. when they united with France against Holland. He would boldly ask the House if there was the slightest similarity between the two cases ? (Hear.) Nothing could be more adverse to the interests of the country than the conduct of the Ministers of Charles 11. ; but the conduct of the present Ministers was entirely different. In what situation had they been placed ? They weie amidst all the difficulties they bad inherited from the Noble Lord who proceeded them—(Cheers) —in the midst of those embarrassments which the late Ministers had provaied for there—(Hear) —and yet it was to them that these thins were imputed. Those difficulties were great. The Noble Earl had given him more consequence than he ever wished or had ever been able to attain. He was willing, however, to take all the blame to himself, and to give ail the merit to those who were entitled to it, especially to the Noble Lord whose industry and ability had been so conspicuously manifested in these negoclations ; but was it owing to him or to any opinion% of his that this country had plunged into a war of tweroy-five years, and had incurred eight hundred millions of debt?—(Cheers.) Or was it owing to any policy of hito that when the long anti ruinous war was concluded, a system was erected of such a nature that it necessarily fell to pieces from its own original in trinsic vices?—(Hear. ) Was it owing to hint that the great revolution of France had occurred—that the country of Belgium had risen in insurrection against its Sovereign, am) that that union had been made which he thought was made up- n false principles and impolitic views ; or was it owing to him or his Administration that the Noble Duke hims, If had, before he (Lord Grey) came into office, de clare! that that union - never could be re-established ? Ile asserted that he was not the individual who had plunged the country into these difficulties. He asserted, on the other hand, that they had endeavoured, under circum stances of peculiar embarrassment, to establish another system in the place of that which had been destroyed by its own impolicy. In addition to all these difficulties and embarrassments, there were others harshly less oppressive. It W4S easy to say, " do this, and do that," but lie be lieved, that if they would consider all the difficulties in which the Governintnt were placed, they must be con vinced that the Government could not have acted other wise than they hail done.. It was not in ordinary and peaceable times, or with long-established Governments that they had to deal. The times were times of revo lution ; and time Government of France, though he firmly believed that it was conducted with the greatest honesty of purpose, and with the most able views, was still much checked and embarrassed. It was the Government of the recent revolution ; it was urged on and goaded by a violent party, ready to take almost any part against its own Government, on certain questions; and under such circumstances it had been their task to negociate. Then came the Provisional Government of Belgium. the creature of a revolution, urged on, too, like that of Fiance, by a violent party, which refused to listen to re:asonahle terms ; and with theft, too, the Minis ters had to ds al. If they had had had to deal with all the resources of the country, and might have dealt with them with perfect freedom of action, it would have been different; but the circumstances of the country were not LT/durable ; and the state of Europe was such, that a slight spark would have fired the train, and spread ruin all around. Never had Ministers negociated under more dan gerous circumstances. Belgium had been separates! from Holland. The Noble Earl denied that fact, and had said that no separation had taken place when the present Mi nisters entered on office. Had it not? Had not the King of Holland been driven from Brussels ?—(Hear, hear.) Bad he not acknowledged that something was necessary to be done to satisfy his Belgian subjects? Had not the Prince of Orarge, in a proclamation issued by himself, declared tl.e independent and separate existence of the Go vernment of Belgium ?—(Hear, hear.) Had not the Noble Lords opposite been called on to put down that separation ? —(Hear, hear.) Aud had they not refused ?—(Cheers)— refused that application, and pre , cribed an armistice to both parties. which they describes! as the performance of an engagement to them and the Conference?—(Hear) — and in doing so, had they not laid down the limits within which the Dutch were to retire—limits which, in 1 were those of Holland in 1814—thus clearly inti inat;ng their opinion that a separation was necessary and isse.vitable ?—(Hear.) The Noble Earl had said that they should not have seated another house on the throne of Bel gium. He slid not ; lie wished the Prince of Orange to lae still at the head of that country, and believes! that no thing better could have occurred to have settled the peace of Europe. But circumstances took a turn which pre cluded ail hope of such an event. That wish, too, he was anxicus to say, was cordially and sincerely expressed by France.—(Hear, hear.) But, he repeated, circumstances had occurred which, when they should come to be known, would show, beyond all doubt, that no other course could have been pursued. The restoration, which they admit ted ought not to be by force, it was impossible to effect by other means. They had sent Ministers in vain for that purpose. It then became their duty to look for the settle ment of Belgium in another manner. He assumed that the re union was admitted to lie impossible, notwithstand ing the invective fnunded ot. the misrepresentations of him. (Eat! Grey), when there was no wish of Isis heart more Wong than that Holland should be placed in a situation 4)1 strength as to frontier; that her natural resources should be improved ; and that she should be enabled to ea-assume her place in the scale of nations. The next erect was to place Belgium in a state of strength ; efid that abject was necessary, even with a view to tha interests of Belgium itself. The Noble Earl here mad extracts from the protocols, to show how these objects had been endeavoured to be obtained. What would have been the effect if they had left Belgium without eommunications by sea, without the means of exporting her commodities and receiving the produce of other countries in return, without the means of communicating with the German provinces—what could have been the result hint a spirit of discontent and restlessness, looking for the first opportunity to join any Power that would redeem Belgium from such difficulties; and looking, therefore, with anxiety to cultivate the friendship and throw herself into the ernes of France.—(Helms, hear.) Time protocol of the 27th of January, 1831, contained the basis of the ultimate treaty of separation ; they comprised the whole of those 21 articles which had been so much 4oienadverted upon, and, in fact, the 24 article, were but tievg lop meat of that protocol. The territorial livisioo was Dec - 1y the same in the sine as in the other, for in both the ancient limits of Holland were fixed on. To the -Lost material of the rules laid down in the protocol, Hol land assented. There was nothing in the propositions of the protocol relative to the navigation of the Sc h e ldt, or to the territorial division to which Holland then stated itself opposed. But the proposals in that protocol were nor. agreed to by Belgium when a very great degree of excitement existed.—an excitement which the Tl Govern. went were not able at that time to controul. me ques• tton had been put why these proposals had not been en forced against Belgium? The answer was, to employ force, it was necessary that the whole of the Five Powers should agree. If one of them dissented, and particu latly if that dissentient should happen to he France, what would be the consequence of resorting to force? Immediate war ; and at that time the general circumstances of Europe, the condition of Russia with respect to part of her former subjects, the condition of the general aspect of affairs, were such that he thought he might safely ask whether, for the sake of what the Noble Earl called an honourable consistency, he would have incurred the risk of a general war? It had h e el, said that the Gordian knot might have been cut, but it could only be cut by an immediate and inevitable war. The Noble Earl had said that he (Lord Grey) had been compelled to relinquish much of what he had at first as serted lie would insist upon. He should wish the Noble Earl to tell hint what treaty had ever been concluded ex actly in the terms in which it had been first pro posed—what terms had ever been offered that had not afterwards received some qualification, and some of which hail not been afterwards conceded, and these conce , sions made on both sides, and in a spirit of mutual accommoda tion, not to favour this or that Power, but to avoid that evil - which the world had so much reason to fear—he meant time evil of war? He asserted that the only ob ject the Ministers hail in view in conducting these ne gotiations was to effect, by their means, the arrangement of the difference of these two parties, and the bringing of them to an understanding, without incurring the risk—at all times, but more particularly at present, to be avoided— the risk of a war. Much stress appears to have been laid upon the part which the British Government took in re ference to the acceptance of the Crown of Belgium by Prince Leopold. In his opinion there could not have been made a better choice. The virtue and the talents of that Illustrious Personage entitled him fully, under the cir cumstances, to that preference over others which even tually he received ; and he could not repel, as in jurious to his character, and unworthy of the Noble Lord who made them, the imputations sought to be cast upon the Kiag of Belgium ; and he would also repel, as equally unfounded, the charge made against him and his colleagues, of seeking to make Belgium subservient to France. Thus, then, he trusted that he had made it fully apparent to all whom he had the honour to address, that the responsible advisers of the Crown had, throughout the whole of those transactions, proceeded upon the principle of non-interference, and that they held that principle of non-interference as strongly as any of the Noble Lords opposite, and as strongly as at any time they had them selves ever professed. There was, he would repeat it, in those transactions nothing like an interference with the in ternal affairs of Belgium. And now he would beg the House to turn its attention to what bad been one of the first consequences of that negociation ; and one of the most important was, that the five Powers now recognized the right of the people of Belgium to choose their own Go vernment, and to establish it upon a sound foundation. He would ask the House, had not the British Government a right to object to the occupancy of the throne of Bel gium by the Duke of Nemours? and if that were so, he would put another question—did not that, coupled with the other circumstances of the negociation, show the diffi coltiea with which the Government had to contend? They were in the situation to which he had adverted when the eighteen articles came before them ; and upon them a long negociation took place, which the invasion of Bel gium by Holland interrupted. He had not the slightest hesitation in asserting that that invasion was as unjustifi able as it was unexpected. It was contrary to the engagements which had been contracted with the Five Powers—it was done without notice—nay, he would add, it was dune under circumstances of conceal ment—it was done wiltuut the knowledge of Sir Charles Bagot. It must be well known to every Noble Peer, that when explanation was demanded none was given ; and it was under those circumstances that a British fleet was as sembled in the Downs ; and he was sure that every impar tial man in Europe would admit that, under the circum stances, the Government of this country could not have done otherwise than take such measures as might compel the Dutch to resume the armistice which they had so im properly abandoned, and in the meantime the French army made its appearance on the frontiers. It might, perhaps, be no matter of surprise to some Noble Lords that the Noble Earl should arrive at different conclusions from these which naturally presented themselves to his mind ; per haps be was in possession of better information— perhaps be obtained from Holland a knowledge of facts which was not possessed by the British Government ; but with the information which they did possess, and he be lieved they had obtained all that a Government could ac quire, he was sure they would stand confessed before their Lordships of having acted in the hest manner which the circumstances of the case permitted. From Belgium, he mold assure the House that they had not received any information which was not already before Parliament ; and lie would take leave to repudiate anything like a sus picion of the integrity and good faith of the King of Belgium ; for nothing could be more loyal and high minded than was the conduct of that Monarch through out. It was one of the grossest mistakes into which any mind could fall, to suppose that he had been at an) time under the command of the French Ambassador ; it was an assumption without the slightest foundation in fact. From this observation the Noble Lord proceeded to state, that some of the difficulties of the case having been got over, the negociation proceeded. And here he begged permission to stop, for the purpose of repelling the charge that no attention had been paid to Holland. So far from that being the fact, he would affirm, that from the com.• mencement of those negociations to the present moment, the interests of Holland had never once been overlooked ; hut it was felt that Holland and Belgium, front the temper displayed by both, could not be expected to negociate with each other upon any terms likely to be productive of peaceful relations ; and what, with such persuasion acting on the minds of the Ministers of the Five Powers, could they do, but take that into their own hands which could not be amicably arranged without their interference ? That they certainly did ; and after touch pains taken on all sides, :ind after a discussion carried on in the strictest spirit of impartiality and justice, they arrived at a conclusion, in which, if there was any favour at all, it was rather t o Holland than to Belgium that it was shown. Acting, then, upon the principle already adverted to, the statement of the 24 articles was produced. He would put it to their Lordships, could they, under such circumstances, revert to the ancient political system arid principles? No such thing, —even the Noble Duke opposite never for a moment at tempted to say they could. Nothing remained fur them hut to erect Belgium into an independent State. He was sure, that time more the House reflected upon the subject, the more would they become convinced that, under the circumstances, it would be impossible for the Mini sters of the Crown to have adopted any better course than in the present time to substitute for the arrangement of 1815 a condition of affairs suited to existed circumstances, and calculated to meet the difficulties which now presented themselves, and calculated to promote the general security and peace of Europe. With these views, then, they en tered upon those negociations. But it was alleged that the result of those negociations was derogatory to the honour of England, and injurious t the interests of Hol land. Such I ingnage as that, and, indeed, he alight add, the general scope of the Noble Earl's speech, was calcu lated to produce an excitement in Holland neither favour able to time true interests of England, new of a nature to promote tbe peace of Europe Especially theme was nothing more likely to disturb, that peace than those objec tiona which had been made to the twenty-four arti,les, whiA., in truth, were nothing more than a development of that basis upon which Holland had her-elf agreed to a separatism. He would put it to the candour and the corn soon sense of the House, could the three 'Northern Powers with any consistency have adopted say other than arrange ments which had been made, and which he hail no doubt would be eventually ratified. He had no doubt that the Courts of Russia, Prussia, and Austria thought ass he did, that it would have been extremely desirable to have placed matters upon a different footing, were any thing of a different kind practicable ; but no alternative was left to those engaged in the negociation and lie felt assured that the Courts of Europe could not fail to regard the matter in that light. In fact, he could not allow himself to doubt but that, sooner or later, the e xpected ratifications would be renewed. T he Noble Earl then proceeded to enumerate these several stipulations of the treaty which had been already stated relative to the navigation of the Scheldt and its various branches to the Heine, contending that in every case nothing had been done of which Holland had a j ust ri g ht to complain, what ever might be time case with respect to Belgium. But the Nubile Earl opposite would have the advisers of the Crown in this country hazard every thing for the sake of certain views of abstract justice, no matter what might be the consequences ; he would have the Government negociate not upon principl es th a t were expedient or practicable, but upon those which accorded with his own views of theo retic perfections, fiat justitia ruat ralum. Even though war were the con se q uence , h e s h ou ld s till adhere to his principles.—(Cee ers .) But to the question of war or peace there were two parties ; and above all, let it not be orgotten that In this country the question of war depended in no slight degree upon the feelings of the people of Eng land. He would ask this simpl e question—was the Noble Lord perfectly sure that the House of Commons as the guardians of the public purse, Would grant the supplies for carrying ou such a w ar ? B ut h e nee d not content himself with resting the defence of the treaty upon those grounds alone ; he would go more minutely into the subject, and examine it more in detail. Ile (Earl Grey) had already said that the treaty was nothing more than a developement of that basis tspou which Holland had previously agreed to a separation ; and even the Noble Earl himself admits that the document so often referred to, does contain much sound argument. In his (Lord Grey's) opinion, a more able document had ❑ever come under his consideration, especially that portion of it which comprehended the statement relative to the naviga tion of the Scheldt. In that basis of separation which was agreed to on the 27th of January, as to the rivers passing through the territories of both States, it was agreed their navigation should be perfectly free; that, Noble Lords, would remember, was i❑ perfect accordance with the Treaty of Vienna; that Treaty of Vienna was as explicit as any treaty could possibly be, on the point that those rivers, and the several branches of them, were to be freely navigated by both countries. For fifteen years the King of Holland held out against the interpetration put upon that treaty by Prussia, Baden, and France, and every State in Europe, which had occasion to deliver an opinion on the subject. There was no man who looked upon the subject with the eyes of common sense would deny that dispute had now been carried on for more than 15 years; and so far was this carried, that in the conven tion of Naples it clearly appeared the King of Holland held out against all the othei Powers, and opposei his single opinion to theirs, though they appear to have pro ceeded with the least possible disposition to dispute. Now lie would ask Noble Lords whether they thought it would be sane or expedient to leave matters in such a situation? And all men must admit that to have agreed upon the 24 articles was making a step which was of the very highest importance—it was, he would repeat it, of the very highest importance that the Belgians should unite with the Dutch in freeing the navigation of the Scheldt the whole way to the Rhine. The principle asserted in the twenty four articles was, he would maintain, in perfect accord ance with the treaty—at least with his interpretation of the treaty, and with the interpretation put upon it by every mind in Europe, to which it was submitted, except ing the King of Holland. His views of the interpretation of the treaty were not adopted in the formation of the twenty-four articles, but in other respects the utmost at tention waa paid to the wishes of Holland, and in all points to her true interests, by the members of the Conference. On the 15th a proposition was made to Holland, to which no answer was received—none whatever, until the 14th of December. Though the treaty did not arrive from Hol land in London till the 14th of December, yet there was the best reason for knowing that it was dispatched to St. Petersburgh as early as the 6th of that month, and com municated to the Dutch Chambers before it was known in London. It would, of course, be in the recollection of the House, that Holland had, at all times, betrayed a strong jealousy of Antwerp. There could be no doubt, that, during they union, that city enjoyed as many advantages as she could now expect to enjoy under any change of cir cumstances. She certainly would be in no way a gainer under the al rangement recently made, as compared with her positio❑ under the union, and therefore, relatively, Holland would be in no worse condition, and Rotterdam and Amsterdam would have no more formidable rivalry to encounter than before ; and if Holland was as Holland had ever been, and the Dutch people of the same character as they had ever proved themselves, he had no fear but that they would enter into a competition with their commer cial rivals on terms of the most perfect equality, even though they should never enjoy that monopoly of the naviga . dun of those rivers upon which they appeared to set so much value. Those, then, were the only advantages which the Belgians had gained in that treaty, of which so much complaint had been made. Then the divisio❑ of the debt was immensely in favour of Holland. He was not then prepared to go through all the details, but the re sult, which he had upon the best information, was, that in strictness Belgium was not liable to more than 5,000,000 of florins, and by the treaty she had under taken 8,400,000 florins, in return for the freedom of navi gation conceded to her. That freedom of navigation was essential to her existence as an independent State: she pesoessed no other means of communication with the Ger man States. Next came the cession of Luxemburgh, and There he thought the defence of the treaty stood upon equally tenable ground, and whatever discontent Holland might think proper to express, it was not to be put in competition with the peace of Europe. He disliked as much as any man having recourse to force for the purpose of putting into execution a treaty of that nature, but he felt that, rather than hazard the peace of Europe, anything short of actual war ought to be resorted to. He did hope, that, under the circumstances, Holland might be induced to yield. He certainly had not anticipated anything like opposition from Holland, whatever might been the case with Belgium—but in the case of Belgium he certainly was disappointed. The Noble Earl then adverted to the horror which the Noble Lord opposite seemed to feel at the annexation of territory without the consent of its in - habitants, asking him if he remembered the cases of Nor way, Saxony, Genoa, Greece, and others ? There were those who, for the purpose of advancing objects of a mere pecuniary nature, would sacrifice the best interests of so ciety. In the words of a poet, Hinc usura vorax avidumque intempore fcenus, Et coneussa fides et multis ultis utile bellum." He had very little more to add, except that he still trusted the treaty would receive a full and speedy ratification. The Duke of WELLINGTON agreed certainly with his Noble Friend, that he owed some apology for the vote which he was about to give in favour of the address; but lie confessed, that what principally induced him to consent to the present motion being brought on, was his sense of the injustice done to Holland by the departure from the principles of the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle. Holland had been forced to consent to the measures determined on by the Conference of London, without having time for the consideration of them. It was upon that ground lie rested his justification for requiring that that treaty should now be reconsidered, and he should endeavour to prevail upon the Noble Lords opposite to re-consider it themselves, with the belief that the Noble Lord—his time being oc cupied with the necessary attention to other subjects—had not been able to give his attention to this particular fact, such as never, he believed, occurred in negociations be tween any two Powers, except on the occasion of the in terference of the three sowers between the Turks and Greeks. But the Noble Lord said that the interference with Belgium and Holland was not a mediation. It cer tainly did not commence in a mediation, but-it had t,rmi flitted in the assumption of an arbitration, the most tyran nical that ever was known, on the part of the five Powers; for the parties were never called on to hear the reasons of the sentence which was passed on them, nor had they any opportunity of making their defence until the sentence had been pronounced to be irrevocable. The Noble Lord had spoke of the concurrence of the French Government. But for his part, he (the Duke of Wellington) did not know whether that Government had concurred in the treaty or not. But if they had concurred, they must certainly have changed their mind since, for they had declared that they would not hear of the alteration from a mediation to an arbitration. He did not know whether they meant that principle to be applied to the Belgians only. He could not suppose that they did not mean that there should be a me diation as respected Belgium, but that the powers of an ar bitration should be employed against the King of the Nether lands. Their Lordships were well aware of the important distinction between the two terms. In February M. Se hastiani said that the interference of the Five Powers was only in the way of mediation, and that tie French Govern ment could never consent that it should lose that character. (Hear.) But now their Lordships were told that the cha racter of an arbitration was forced upon the Conference. Was it forced upon them by those of the five Powers who had refused to ratify the treaty because it had become an arbitration ?—(Cheers.) Was it they who, as their Lord ships were told, carried the rest of Europe by force along with them ? The person then addressing the House had had a long experience in these affairs—(Hear) — and lie would assure their Lordships of his sincere be lief, that if England should give up Holland, every other Power in Europe would be ready to peck at her. It was on such considerations he grounded the vote which he was about to give.—( Hear, hear, hear.) (The Noble Duke was frequently inaudible in the course of his ad dress, and was followed throughout with great difficulty.) The Noble Lord (Earl Grey) had been pleased to charge the Members of the late Government with having prepared the embarrassments in which his Majesty's present Minis ters were involved. Now he (the Duke of Wellington) had often challenged the Noble Lou] to come forward and prove that any embarrasamenc of the present Administra tion had been caused by the Government of which he had been a M e mber.—(Cheers.) He had said before that the last revolution in France was a visitation upon Europe, for which the late Government of this country was as little to blame as the Noble Etrl himself, or as any other per s. nat that time in opposition to the Government. He had often said in that House that there was nut an indi vidual in Europe who had less to do with that revolution and with the measures of Prince Polignac, than the indi t v ..ehy had alsolressing the satisfaction,heiri Lordships. But if the Mem hers of the late Government had nothi ng to d o w i t h that d resolution,ual he a they the consolation, of reflecting th at the y had never eulogised it.—(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord spoke, as usual, very harshly respecting the settlement of Europe in 1814 and 1815. But the Noble Lord ought to remember that that set dement had maintained the peace of Europe ever since—. .~ 11 -- (Loud cheering)—with the exception, he was sorry to say, of the interference between Turkey and Greece. Was not the Noble Lord aware that he was, up to the present day, carrying on his negociations under the arrangements of that very settlement ?—(Cheers.) The power which the Noble Lord professed to have over the Conference of London was entirely owing to that set tlement, of which he so much con►plained.—(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord said that the late Administration left him in difficulties. It was they, however, who com menced the settlement of the difference between Belgium and the King of the Netherlands; and he (the Duke of Wel lington) believed that the present Ministers found that the other Powers were negotiating (at the time when their predecessors signed the last protocol) with a sincere desire to bring those transactions to a speedy arid an amicable conclusion.—(Hear.) The late Government did no more than settle the suspension of hostilities, and take an en gagement from the two hostile Powers that they would adhere to the suspension. They settled upon a line be yond which neither party should pass ; and in the same protocol it was distinctly stated, that the line was deter mined on only for the purpose of suspending hostilities, and not as the definite separation of one territory from the other. On the 7th November (and it wag curious and extraordinary that on that occasion the late Govern ment avoided the error into which the Noble Earl op posite fell in ten days after) the late Ministers refused to guarantee the suspension of hostilities—(Hear, hear) — but the Noble Earl guaranteed it.—(Cheers.) Indeed he would not say that the Noble Earl had since made good his guaranty.—(Hear.) The late Government refused to make good the suspension, because they knew that if it should be violated it would be necessary to go to was to enforce it, and that then it would be very difficult to de termine to what Power the task of its enforcement should be committed. The only way in which the Noble Earl had executed the guaranty was by forcing the King of the Netherlands to break up the blockade of the Scheldt— (Hear)—but he had not compelled the Belgians to adhere to the suspension. There was one curious circumstance, worthy of their Lordships' attention, respecting that gua ranty. On one occasion, in February or March, the suspension of hostilities was to be enforced against the Belgians by a blockade of their ports ; and how ? By neutral Powers. But it must be well known to the Noble Lords who signed the protocol, that a neutral Power can have no right to blockade the ports or seize the ships of one of the belligerents.—(llear, hear.) The Noble Earl professed to have acted throughout with impartiality. How did the Conference prove it ? At the same time that they threatened Belgium with the blockade of her ports by the ships of a neutral Power, they gave notice to the King of the Netherlands that he must, by the 20th of March, break up his blockade of those same ports.— (Cheers.) The next part of those transactions to which he begged the attentiuo of their Lordships, was the declaration of independence. The Noble Earl (Grey) stated that he had always been of opinion that the best arrange ment for the peaceful adjustment of the differences between the separated States would be, that the Prince of Orange should became Sovereign of Belgium. But the mischief was, that what the Belgians wanted in the first place was to have their independence declared by the Five Powers; and the first step taken, after the guaranty for the suspension of hostilities, was to make that declara tion. This took place on the 20th of December ; and on the Orb of January the French Minister (M. Sebastiani) wrote to the Belgian Minister at Paris, expressing great sympathy for the Belgic nation, which long formed part of France, and was still a member of the same great fa mily, and assuring him that the Government of France had obtained for Belgium all that they could obtain fur her. Such was the construction which the French Mi nister put upon the declaration.—(Cheers.) Again—in the month of August, M. Moulinard, the Secretary of the Belgian Government, addressed the Conference in these terms:—" The circumstances under which the suspen sion of hostilities, in November, 1830, was proposed by the Conference and accepted by the Belgian Government, are too well known to require that I should recall to your recollection that Holland, seeing her army suddenly dis organised by the natural effects of the separation of Bel gium from her dominions, readily acceded to the sus pension ; but that Belgium might have continued to profit by the state of things at that time, anti might have pushed part of her population out of her own limits, and that yet, on the assurance that her hide • pendence would be acknowledged, she acquiesced in the wishes of the Five Powers, anti made her debut in the political world by a sacrifice to the peace of Europe. Such was the construction which Belgium put upon the declaration. Such was the result of the Noble Earl's negociations, as far as France and Belgium were concerned --(Cheers.) After that came the discussion of what was called No. 12 (as the Noble Duke was under stood to say). Now the Noble Earl said that Holland had adopted the basis laid down by the Government for the settlement of the separation of the two countries, and that the protocol No. 12 did not give her all that she had since obtained north of the Meuse. But he (tire Duke of Welling ton) begged to observe, that that protocol did hold out to Holland other arrangements (besides the territory upon the Meuse), which were likely to induce her to agree to the basis. According to that basis Holland retained possession, and entire possession, of the Duchy of Luxemburg, and she had every reason to believe from the protocol, that her territory on the upper part of the Meuse would be kept continuous by other territory to he afterwards conceded to her. It was worthy of remark, that the Conference de clared that the settlement contained in the 24 articles to be irrevocable. But the Noble Lord told the House that they had been obliged to depart from that settlement, be cause an adherence to it would have caused a general war in Europe.—(Hear, hear.) Now, on that point he (the Duke of Wellington) begged leave to contradict the Noble Earl ; for, after the French Government had declared, in the first instance, that they had some doubt respecting that arrangement, they gave a full consent to the whole of it on the Ist of March, and agreed to carry the whole into execution---(Hear)—at the same time again declaring their determination to adhere to the mediation, and not to allow any armed intervention on the part of any St ite in Europe. There was, therefore, no reason for deviating from the settlement which France had adopted, anti which was sa.isfactory to Holland.—(Cheers.) But it happened just at the time that negociations commenced for the elec tion of Prince Leopold to the throne of Belgium. The Noble Earl (Grey) had said that the Government of this country bad nothing to do with that election. But the Noble Earl would allow him (the Duke of Wellington) to refer him to a letter from the Noble Lord who was at that time employed in Belgium. From that letter it appeared that one of the objects of the Noble Lord's residence in Brussels was to obtain that election ; and that for that pur pose he recommended certain arrangements with a view to facilitate the acceptance of that offer by Prince Leopold of Saxe Coburg.—(Cheers.) The evidence went clearly to show that the election of that Prince was the cause of the abandonment of that settlement which had been accepted by Holland, and which Belgium hail refused.— (Hear, hear, hear.) Ile must say that he had a great respect for King Leopold, and he trusted th it if that Prince would take on him the character of un inde- Fendent Sovereign, he would be an excellent King of that country. But then lie must be independent, not only of this country, but of France.—(Hear, hear.) Lord Pon sonby was ordered to state to the Belgian Government, that he should leave Bru•sela on the Ist of June unless the articles should have been accepted by that day. But the first thing that was done after his return to London, was the alteration of the basis of the settlement already agreed upon. Th►s was done without consulting the Dutch Mi nister, in consequence of some representations made by Lord Ponsonl•y to the Conference ; and the Belgian Go vernment were told that, if they accepted the articles, the Conference was willing to go into negociations to obtain from Holland the cession of Luxembourg for a valuable c onsideration—that is, for the cession of an equivalent territory. Now, according to the usual practice of such negociations, Hollind ought to have been consulted. But no such thing. The first that Holland hearth of it was by the publication of Lord Ponsonby's letter. The King of the Netherlands remonstrated, hut he was told that ben-grel rnal-gre, he must accept the new settletnens.--[The Noble Duke waa for some sentences inaudible.] —He would not follow the Noble Earl in all that he had said respecting the war between Holland and Belgium. That formed no part of the question now under consideration. Holland had great provocation to go to war when she did. He (the Duke of Wellington) differed entirely from the Noble Earl. What he caid at the time in that House was, that he never believed that the King of the Netherlands had acted with treachery. The notice which that King gave at the time ought to have been understood differently from the construction which tire Conference put upo❑ it, and they ought to have prevented the consequences that followed. Notwith standing the guarantee, hostilities had never• been sus pended in the neighbourhood of Maestricht.—(Cheers.) Iu the same intoner, hostilities were continued in the neighbourhood of Antwerp. Under• these circumstances, what did King Leopold ? Before he left this country he accepted the 18 articles. But when he went to Brussels be swore to the Constitution, which required that he should take possession of other territory which had be longed to Holland a century back. He trusted that their Lordships would see in those transactions something not only of indiscretion, but of what, in common language would be called bad faith.—(Hear.) He now came to that part of the question which turned on a comparison ~ ~+~ w .._ • between the 24. articles of Octolpr and the guaranty of February respecting the debt. From what the Noble Earl (Grey) had said, he believed that he (Earl Grey) had not had time to attend to those transactions. The Noble Earl said that the guaranty was that Belgium should pay 8,400,000 florins of the renter. But to place it on that footing, the consent of the creditors of the Dutch Government must be obtained to take the King of Belgium as debtor, inste id of the King of the Netherlands. That they would not do, without the guaranty of the British Government. But that was not the arrangement. Ths whole remained still the debt of the Dutch Government— (Cheers). The interest was to be paid half-yearly in Brussels and Amsterdam. So that there had been no such transfer as the Noble Earl supposed.—(Cheers.) Certainly the Noble Earl had no time to attend to these details. If he had, there would doubtless be less reason to complain. But what, then, was the nature of the guaranty? If the Belgians should fail to pay the interest, how was this country bound to Holland ? Was each of the Five Powers bound to pay one-fifth of the amount, or was Great Britain bound to pay the entire? It was true their Lordships had heard nothing of an Act of Parliament upon the subject to give the Attorney-G:.neral another opportunity of deli vering an opinion that the money must be paid.—(Loud cheers.) But the King's honour would be bound ; and his Majesty would be obliged to come down to Parliament and say that he had guaranteed the payment, and call on Parliament to enable him to make good his guaranty.— (Cheers.) But the guaranty was not confined to the debt ; it extended to all the details of the navigation of the Rhine and the canals. The Noble Earl had been pleased to state, that the arrangements of these twenty four articles were in strict conformity with thebasis agreed to by the King of the Netherlands. Now he (the Noble Duke) wished to know if the Noble Earl would find in any part of the basis to which that Sovereign had agreed, one word which could give the Belgians the right of passing from the Scheldt to the Rhine ? He knew not whether the Noble Earl had read the letter from the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs to the Ambassador of the King of the Netherlands respecting the second article ; but in that letter the Noble Secretary assured the Ambassador that tile Conference (as we understood the Noble Duke) would not deviate from the settlement to which Holland had already agreed. The third article of the Treaty of Separation left the Belgians the free navigation of the rivers which cross the territories of both the States. The Ambassador of the Netherlands had waited on the Confer ence to give the King's adherence to the treaty ; and he must have protested against that third article, or the letter would not have been written. But the Noble Earl (Grey) said that the treaty of the Rhine secured the navi gation of the rivers and canals connecting the Scheldt and the Rhine. But he (the Duke of Wellington) could assure the Noble Earl that the treaty of the Rhine did no such thing. That treaty said, indeed, that the branches of the Rhine, and the rivers flowing into it, should be free to the navigation of the parties to the treaty. But there was riot one word in it about the canals. How, then, could the Noble Earl say that the navigation of the Dutch canals was given up by that treaty to the Powers who were parties to it ? Even if the King of the Netherlands could be in duced to consent to the navigation by the Belgians of the Dutch canals, it must of necessity be on payment of the duties both on the Rhine and on those canals. It was only by England that the demand originated. It was not to be found in any previ ous protocol. Adverting to the right asserted on the part of Belgian commerce passing through Maestricht, he contended that the case was not at all similar to that of the permission granted by Prussia to some of the minor Powers to pass through the Prussian fortresses, to which it had been compared. It was not at all likely that the King of the Netherlands would be disposed to acquiesce in such propositions. But if he were induced to grant these concessions, why was he not to have the benefit of making a treaty of commerce front which he would derive all the advantages of them ? Let their Lordships consider what Holland had paid for I3elgium. By the treaty of 1814, Belgium was restored to Holland ; but Holland was to give compensation to Sweden for the cession of certain colonies, and to advance money for the restoration of the fortifications in the Low Countries. For that purpose she had sold four of her colonies. Holland had to pay one million to Sweden, two millions for the Netherland forti fications, one million for the share of the contribution of Paris, and other sums, amounting altogether to seven millions sterling; besides twenty millions of francs. Such was the sum which Holland had paid for Belgium ; and the compensation which it was now proposed she should receive was 600,000 florins, or about 60,0001. a year. The Noble Earl (Grey) had told them that all this was done to avoid war; but he would tell their Lordships that was a question not of war nor of peace, but of justice. —(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Their Lordships had of late heard a good deal about foreign war upon this subject, and about civil war upon another subject; but he would call upon their Lordships not to take alaran at these threats, for there was no danger of either, unless the system of the Noble Lords opposite were adapted. He denied that there was any danger of either unless it arose from the policy of the present Adminis tration, which policy was, of all others, most calculated to bring on both foreign and domestic war.—(Hear, from the Opposition.) True it was that all the Powers had agreed to the basis in this treaty ; but then that basis had been departed from, and the three northern Powers hesitated—he said " hesitated," because the Noble Earl (Grey) had toed the word, but he might say, he believed, were determined not—to ratify the treaty until it had received the consent of the King of the Nether lands, who never would consent to it in its present form. He would only add, in conclusion, that he trusted their Lordships would not be deterred from doing their duty on this and on other subjects by threats eirher of foreign or domestic war.—(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) Viscount GODERICH observed, that the case which had been adduced by the Noble Duke, in the time of Charles the Second, bore an analogy to the case which it was intended to illustrate. In the former case, it was proved that both the King and his Ministers were bribed ; and he was sure that his Noble Friend would allow that that was not a very opt parallel to the case under conside ration. He utterly denied that throughout the whole ne gociation anything had occurred by which the honour of this country had been compromised. Difficulties existed in the very commencement of the negociation, not created by his Majesty's present Ministers, but found by them on their accession to office. Previous occurrences had led to the feelings of animosity between Belgium and Holland, which the Noble Duke ascribed to the proceedings of the Conference. The remarkable step taken by the Prince of Orange of placing himself, in opposition to his father, at the head of the Belgians, and the step taken by the Belgians themselves, of declaring their inde pendence, constituted the climax of all the antece dent difficulties. It was at that time clear to him that nothing but the force of all Europe would re store Belgium to Holland. Such was evidently the opinion of the King of the Netherlands ; for he called upon the Allies not to act as mediators, but to put down what he termed insurrection by force of arms. Then came the declaration of the decheance of the House of Nassau by the Belgians. He by no means intended to say that the five great Powers might not, by an exertion of force, have re-united Belgium to Holland ; but their views and mea sures must have been concurrent, and there were various ob,tacles in the way. It was, therefore, most unjust to charge his Majesty's Government with a premature and improvident admission of the independence of Belgium. Before such a charge could be substantiated, they must look to the whole course of events. Without having done SI, it would be unjust to condemn Ministers to perpetual infamy (for such would be the consequence of adopting the Noble Earl's proposition) for their conduct, under cir cumstances which they could not avoid, and over which they had no controul. As to the article respecting the rivers and canals, that was derived from the treaty of Vienna ; and the principle of snaking the rivers free to the borderers upon them, was to facilitate commerce, and to render nations less strangers to one another than they were before. The Noble Duke had spoken of these rivers as canals ; if they were so, they were what might be called canals of the sea, or in termediate waters between the Rhine and the Scheldt. He could not see what possible injury Holland could have sue. t tined on this subject. It was singular, if she bad, that in the Dutch Papers submitted to the Conference so little stress had been laid on the fact of the opening of these waters. It was true one subject connected with this matter had been made the ground of complaint by the Dutch : he meant the regulation of the duties to be taken on these waters being submitted to the order of the other Powers; and they said such a course was utterly unprecedented. That such was not the fact must be evident to any on e who considered the treaty made on the 23d of May,lBls, by Hanover with Prussia, relative to the navigation of the Ems. That treaty stated the tolls that should be payable on that river, and the sum was settled by common accord of Hanover and Prussia; and although the river in its course passed through other territories, the 91 article of that treaty fixed the tolls payable from them all. Then the Dutch objected to that article of the treaty which re lated to the fishery. He could not see in what way that article was injurious to Holland; and its principle certainly had a precedent on a former most memorable occasion. In 1783, a treaty was made between this country and the United States, in which we agreed that certain fisheries should be enjoyed by the United States ; and . ~ ;;:vr.1:44 OT; , qcf . we agieNl to that on the principle, that when the United States formed part of the British dominions they had en joyed the use of these fisheries. He thought that it was quite enough to take the matter of the fisheries out of the category of horrid acts of injustice with which they had been charged. The address that had been moved was one of the most condemnatory he had ever heard ; but he should go to the vote upon it, without being the least uneasy in his conscienee.—( Hear, hear.) He should go to the vote, convinced in his own mind, that in the midst of the greatest difficulties with which a Govern ment had ever found itself embarrassed, Ministers had conducted themselves throughout with the most scrupu lous attention to the honour and the interests of the country.—(Hear, hear.) That was the principle on which their conduct was regulated. He defied any man to show that they had been regulated by any other, or that the result of their efforts had any o ther effect.—(Hear, hear.) With that conviction, h e re peated, lie was prepared to go to a division, convinced that they did not deserve, and should therefore not re ceive, the reprobation of that House.—(Hear.) Lord ABERDEEN, in reply, said, that he was no longer surprised at the engagements into which the Noble Earl had entered, since he bad heard the Noble Earl's in- terpretation of those engagements. But he must say, that he was almost in dottlat whether the Noble Earl had read the treaty. The Noble Earl spoke as if he were per suaded that their Lordahips would see that a certain amount of the Dutch debt had been transferred from o ne great book to another, and that that was all. B u t that was not all—for by one of the articles of the treaty, this country engaged to see the due execution of all the articles in that portion of it. By one of the articles, the payment of the suns of annual rentes therein mentioned was secured at Brussels or Antwerp, in ready money, without any de duction of any nature whatever, either present or future. If the Noble Earl understood a guarantee, such as that as he spoke of understanding, it must be admitted that the Noble Eirl might, with perfect safety, guarantee the course of the winds and waves.—(Hear.) If that treaty was entered into to-morrow, he defied the Noble Earl to see one-half of it executed. The Noble Earl called it a development of preceding engagements. It seemed to hin , a development by contraction. If the Duke of Ne mours was to be rejected by one party, and the Duke of Leuchtenberg by another, what became of the indepen dence and of the undeniable rights of a country thus sub ject to the veto of another State ? His objection t o the treaty was that it rendered it scarcely possible to avoid war. He admitted that the Government had been some wh it embarrassed, but asserted that it was but slight. lie asserted that, with a view to tl-e continuance of peace, he had the utmost reason to regret the retirement of the Duke of Wellington, whose character and whose deeds inspired our allies with love, our enemies with fear, and never at any moment did he do so with more success than at the moment of his retirement from office. After all that bad been done, what slid it amouut to ? Why, that whether peace could be preserved or not depended OR the question whether one Paris banker or another gained the upper hand. In answer to the partition of Luxembourg, the annexation of part of Saxony to Prussia and of Genoa to Sardinia had been stated ; but he denied the resemblance, for these were conquered territories, that were of right, at the disposal of the conqueror. On the whole, such was the distorted view of the subject taken by the Ministers, that he could not possibly understand the reasons by which they had been actuated. The House then divided, when there appeared— Contents—Present 39 ; Proxies 56 Not Contents—Present 59 ; Proxies 73 132 Majority against the Address —37 Adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, JANUARY 26. Mr. HolmEs moved for a new writ for a Member to serve in Parliament for the borough of Dunwich, in the room of the Earl of Brecknock, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.—Ordered. Mr. F. POLLOCK presented a petition from (as sce understood) the Royal College of Physicians, praying that some legal provision might be made to supply the schools of anatomy, which was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. BERNAL brought up the report of the Committee on expiring laws. Colonel ROCHFORD presented a petition from cer tain parishes in the county of Westmeath, against the present system of education adopted by the Kildare-street Society, and complaining that the Bibles were withheld from Protestants. ➢lr. CHMIAN supported the prayer of the petition. Mr. O'CONNELL would support the prayer of the petition, if the facts were true, and if it could be show° that Government had made any regulation to take away the Bible from Protestant children. The only regulation he knew of was that the use of the Bible was not ea' forced on Catholics, which in his opinion was a veil good regulation. The present opponents of the new measure , by their arguments in support of such an opposition, ea' tirely contradicted the assertions which they made thi s time last year. Sir R. BATESON said he knew that in a short filo° the table of the House would be covered with similar peti tions against a system which, in his opinion, was repti nant to the feelings of the Protestants in Ireland. Til e Bible vial only allowed to be used in a mutilated forint only selecting such parts of it as suited the religio o . views of the parents of the children. The inhabitants at tl. e North of Ireland, he was sure, would not submit to it' Mr. CRAMPTON assured the House that there wai ° great deal of misrepresentation and misconception upon till subject; he denied that the Bibles were used in a mutilate ( ' form, and to show that the new system was highly bent' ticial, very many applications for schools had been made to the Board of Education, not only from Protestant ° but from Catholics, and there were also applicatioo ° from Protestant and Catholic clergymen united.—(Hear.) The attacks that had been made on the Board of Educa' tion by the opponents of the new system, were made upo n a gross perversion of the facts. Ile exertions of tile r Board were at all times made with a view to suppres' a system that tended to keep the people in total darkne 6° and ignorance. He wished that every person should l' e supplied with a Bible, and he was sure that the best mod e of enabling people to arrive at the truth was to abstsi ° from persecution.—(Hear.) Mr. RUTHVEN felt thankful to his Majesty's o°' vernment for taking away from the people of Ireland 0 0e of the great causes of dissension. After some further observations from Sir R. Bansoi, and Mr. O'CoNNELL, the petition was read and order & to he printed. Sir J. NEWPORT presented a petition front DubliS' relative to the arrears of ministers' money. He hope" that the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland would intro' duce some legislative measure to lessen the grievance cop y plained of by the petitioners. Mr. STANLEY was aware of the extent of the g rief mice; but in a measure he introduced last ses s i on , a c lad► . was introduced which would limit the period of arrearg the Bill would he again introduced in the present session' and that clause would still make part of it. GENERAL FAST. Mr. PERCEVAL rose, and addressing the Speake r ' said, " I perceive strangers in the House." Mr. IIUAIE—I presume I may move the suspension ° ll the standing order. The SPEAKER then ordered the gallery to be cleared. . J Mr. PERCEVAL could speak with more boldness the absence of the public. Ile could persuade the Ale', hers who are all of them baptised, and not allow the publ i ;; to kt.ow the blasphemies that might be spoken in an t ivi' to his speech—that the blasphemers, if any, in this insight not be able to give publicity to their blasphemi e g That was the excuse for clearing the House of strange God was present amongst us, and he would witness that passed. I i the name of God the highest, he appeol to the House and a s it was wr i tten i n hi s wor d , that ?),, who rejected him that appeared in the name of God i i spired him that sent him, he that rejected him (Mr. I' r ; ceval), rejected his God, in whose name he appeared. * would risk being t e di ous , i n o rder to be understood. Y r ( was afraid to read the book he held in his hand ( I , i t Bible,) but he w o uld r ea d it. No roan could deny t IP 3 3 the state of the nation was truly deplorable. Nothing h t altered his opinion since he last addressed the House °e, this subject. Th e n a tion trembled on the verge (4' l l stroction—no man could calculate on subordination in $ 5 :, society—in every district there were disorders. Th e , was also the frightful collision of the two Houses of I )4 r liament. The Louses of the nobles anti gentry vr`' entered anti pillaged—one of the cities plundered t,' robbed by the mob. Two pal ties were threatening a c' j , flict so manifest, that amidst ull these things, every 1. 1 1) of considerate mind should consider their ways and Ole them. Shall we not bow down before that God wp ° : if hand is on us—consider our ways, and go down on 19 knees to supplicate that mercy which is gone from it Ile would read the grounds of a nation's prosperity. r nation stands as Jerusalem formerly stood. It has bee-0 tire seat of true religion, and has reared up the finest 5Y 9t ,,,0 of civil polity that ever existed ; and if we be as Jerusl''' was, we must suffer ((pally : 'Woe unto thee, Chorazin, woe unto thee, Rethsaida ; the mighty works which were done in you were done in '': j l o and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth ashes. 0 ,1 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre Sidon at the day ofjudgment than for you. t. And thou, Capernatim, which are exa lt e d unto He''ic' shalt be Wrought down to Hell : for it the mi g hty works W.