The Sun. — London, England, 1822-06-25 00:00:00

- - men and contractors, his Hon. Baronets, his Knights of the Shire and rotten boroughholders. The men whom he used to feed, to command and drag to the vote, from the highest to the lowest, all, yea, all of them forsook him on the first personal question of confidence between Mr. Addington and himself. The name and unenvied popularity of Mr. Addington were found to be an overmatch for all Mr. Pitt's great qualities. There were but 66 faithful among the faithless;, and :these soon fell • down to 35, A coalition was shortlYformed between Mr. Pitt, .Mr: Fox, and Lord Grenville, but Mr. Addington made head etre:hest it for upwards of a year. A change then took place, but hadhis friends stood by Mr. Addington hemight have been Prhne . • Minister at that very moment. It happened, however, that' • While Mr. Fox was out of office phrases were bestowed upon him,uccusing him almost of actual rebellion. It was hope less Sfor Mr. Fox to attempt: to make head against the • .3,liaistere but in 1806 a neyilight broke in upon the Houle of . Commons. Mr. Fox came into office, and a man's coming into office was a. circumstance, which the House was almost most' • careful in observing. Nothing was viewed with more anxious • eves than the conduct of a'Man the day before and his conduct tile day after his becoining a Minister. The moment the • Gariente announced - this fact there was a change in, the vision and understanding of the House. In March 1806, the House had no•objection to Mr. Fox or his principles; and itfollowed ' in the same numerical force in which it had followed his political opponent. The, ; House refused to censure the ap pointment of Lord Ellenborough to a seat in the Cabinet, a measure of which he had expressed his disapprobation at the time, though he mentioned this merely to shew that he did not ,notice the circumstance for the mere purpose of his argument. The House, however, was an animal of much foresight, and particularly celebrated for its obduracy against all men not in the enjoyment of of f ice. For the Resolution of Censure hi question only sixty-five voted against Mr. Fox, a re ierkable number; for it was about that which had voted with him just before his entry into office. His being in office turned: the tables upon his adversaries t and upon this pinching i test 222 voted with him. H e sh ou ld b e muc h in terested n hearing any explanation of these votes; but at presenehe could come to leht one conclusion respecting them.- - Having noticed the conduct - of a Parliament formed under Tory auspices, he came to consider that of the Whig Parlia ment of 1806. In the interim there had been a greatchange ; apurgation, as it was formerly called ; and he confessed that he thought the jotter was worse than the former Parliament. A difference of f,pinion had been strongly expressed at the beginning -of the new Whig Session, and had been strongly ne s expressed by a Right Honourable Member (Mr. Canning) who particularly condemned the administration of foreign affairs. The new Oppositimi, however, felt themselves too weak to divide, and they would not therefore expose their weakness.— The Army Estimates, Sir Samuel Romilly' s Bill f or re f orm i ng fi the Law,'nd other measures passed without any numerical , trial ; but in the course of the next spring, on the question of the' 'Hampshire Petition, the new Opposition thought that flesh and blood could bear it no longer, and they determined manfully to come to the vote, though they knew it would expose their weakness. • The numbers were 134 to 57; and after this, they • were very slow at dividing. The 12th of March of that year wean criticalday, and he begged the House to bear it in re collection ; there had been rumours abroad, and the Member,' were on the 100k -out; they thought all was 'not right, and that it was much better for them to remain quiet, and hold a snug sail, lest they should fall in with quicksands. There had been birds of bad omen in the House. It was thought, not that -- something was not as it should be (for diet was never cared about,) but something not as it had been. The .. . Members were plain matter-of-fact men.; and in deciding upon the conduct of others, the only question was--'Are they, or are they not, in -office ?" In this most interesting state of speculation, Members • had a tendency to absent themselves; and it was surprising to End the many calls into the country which were alleged in ex cuse for that abseuce. There were journies for health, journies to see near and dear relatives, and an observance of all those ties which bound inen at home when they had no wish to be abroad. At length a remarkable ifaragraph appeared in the Gazette. The House immediately took observation, the 57 became suddenly expanded to 158 ; and upon the question whether the late Ministry were deserving of confidence, the HOuse, in substance, declared, that it never liked them—was glad 'they were turned out—was delighted with his Majesty • for having turned them out : and yet, had they been re • stored, there would, no doubt, have been the same cautious .observation—the same slack ifttendance—and the same pour ing in in scores afterwards.. They had eulogized 'Lords fey and Grenville—had rejoiced at their dismissal—and yet would eulogize them again' to-morrow, if they should be re - stored to office. Not that he meant to say that this exten sive influence was confined to the walls of that House. He -.would proceed to shew its effcts in other instances, and he would proceed to notice; nota low Corporation, but a grave, venerable,. and Learned Body, _which di s p ense d i n a great de er-en the' blessings :of 'education. He alluded to the Learned e'liiiiiseeisity of Oxford, It had shewn a great alacrity in the speciead observation he had mentioned ; and had long since washed away its political sins,(if any it ever had) man attach ment to the - exiled 'family of the Stuarts. That for which he MostadmirFd _them was, th e i r election of. - 'Ord Grenville to the -office Of Gialleilior of :the - Uni vers ity e.but this election took *heti 'it was thought he Was; about to enter office, when a correspondence had , taken. place between him and Govern . merit with a view to his foniiing part, of the Administration. ertite-learned body had its eyes updh this circumstance; but the usual course seas to wait- for =the Gezette.-o(A laugh.)—The learned body was sorely mistaken in its calculation,, for the Noble Lnrd had- continued Oat of office ever since. The con duct of this learned bodyswith reference' to the Catholic ques tion was no less remarkable. Mr. Perceval declared the mea sure then - proposed to be a dangerous measure. The Univer sity petitioned against it. A flame in cOnsequence was raised in the country, and its peace was endangered by those,. who, for a mere political purpose, raised an irreligious, unchristian, arid brutal cry of aNo Popery." That cry was raised dis -honestly and inhumanly; for he would maintain that not one out of one hundred conscientiously:opposed it. But that out ' cry served the purpose of transplanting the Ministers of that day, and of replacing the authors of it firmly in their situa tions. Notwithstanding all that, in the course of ten years after a large majority was found in both houses of Parliament to admit Catholics to every rank and situation in the army and navy. A Bill was introduced for that purpose, and Supported by those very Ministers, and ; their friends and adherents, and - passed through both Houses of Parliament, without being op yenned by one spiritual Peer. Yet those were the very men who some years before were ready to swear, that the ad usission of Catholics to one place of rank, trust, or emolument, n t;te army or navy, would endanger the -peace of the country. Those were the very men, who, by raising the brutal cry of . " No Popery," overthrew the Government at a period of considerable danger from abroad, and of no less difficulty and embarrassment at home. Not• a voice, how ever, was raised by any of those wren against a measure welch they had - once made the instrument of producing so much alarm. The course of his obsAvations had now led him to another point, which exceeded all others. He alluded to the Walcheren party, and to the Administration which was called together by the "No Popery" cry. He would exhaust the patience of the House if he were to do more thin- to allude 'briefly to Acts of the Parliament under the ;guidance of that Administration. They had plunged this country in a war with America. They had raised the Regency • question, and opposed all the claims of the Regent, and that bYlazge and successful majorities, while there was any pros peen of the King's recovery: But when no hopes any longer remained of the King's recovery,. the majorities against an ex el melon of the power, and removing the restrictions of the Re gent, were not so great. The minozeties grew more respectable on every diccassion, and the majorities were growing less, just in proportion as the hopes of the King's recovery were less pro in'Ssing., The House then took another observation--(He.en, and cheers)—aid finding' the King's recovery hopeless, con curred in removing the restrictions before put on the Regent. 'There was, besides, the circumstance of a King de facto in the person of the Regent,, who, in the course of nature, and, in all probability, would soon be a King de jure. The Morse then cast up the claims anew, and resolved that they ought not to incur thb displ e a sure o f t h e f uture Sovereign for an iv:Certain period, by *any resistance during the short life of the King. The majorities were still against the Regent; but were not so great as on common Ministerial questions; and they preferred the next year taconfer additional powers by ltill rather than by Address. Then followed the Copenhagen expedition. The Honourable. and ' Learned Gentleman next adverted to the conduct of the House relative to the Conven- 1 tion Of Cintra; and in the year 1812, when in the short pe ria of, three weeks the House voted an . _ Address to .the Crown for the nomination of a more efficient Ministry, and •at the moment their calcillationa came to an end, and it appeared evident that the Crown was determined to return the Ministers, they voted another Address, with a majority of 100, bestowing their confidence in the same Ministers, and thanking the Crown for retaining therm • After having pointed their attention to the decisions of Parliament with regard 4a the Walchere.n expedition, and the question of- the Regency, he thought it of little consequence to advert to many other instances of the inconsistency of the ,house on minor 'questions. Greatly as the country had to complain of the conduct of the present Parliament in the course of 'the present and last Session, yet all they could do could not • equal those two cases. In the one case the Parliament had •voted h Resolution of Thanks to those men who planned the -expedition to, Walcheren, by which the money and the lives of .the people were so lavishly squandered. The second case was that .decision on the subject of the currency, the inexpediency 4' which was now, be believed, placed beyond all doubt. Al though the present Parliament had fallen short of those cases, .still therewas enough in the _retrospect, and he would state two cases which, although not 'equal to the Walcheren and the Currency cases, yet might be equal to the decisions of 1803 and 1806. In the last Session the Hon. Member for Essex brought a proposition before the House for the reduction of the Malt Tax. The 'Resolution was carried by amajority, heed less perhaps what little benefit they would confer on the country generally by,the reduction of that tax. But they resblved for the reduction of the fax ; when the Noble Lord opposite cautioned them not to." halloo until they were out of the wood." The Noble Lord, therefore, put in motion that instrument called the whip, that never-failing threat, whereby, in the courge of a few days, the former majority for the reduction was convert ed into a majority of fifty for reversing the former resolution. In 1820, he (Mr. Brougham) had obtained the assent of the House td a proposition in favour of the Agricultural Interests against the Noble Lord. He ought not perhaps to state those surmises which have gone abroad, but it was the general opinion that some communication was made, that if one other division similar to that had occurred, the Ministers would re sign.--( Hear, hear !)—lle himself, with his eyes open, had seen some of those Members • who before voted for his proposition, onthe next discussion of the• same proposition, dividing with the Noble Lord against their' own Resolution. Although he could not say with Mr.. Dunning that fifty voted against their former votes, yet he was quite confident very many of them did so. On a late occasion the Right Hon. Member for Liver pool (Mr. Canning) had proposed an additional clause in the Noble Lord's Corn Importation Bill. The Noble Lord gave that clause no opposition when it was proposed.—(The Marquis (* Londonderry here said, quite the contrary, and that he never voted for the clause.)—He understood then that the Noble Lord Toted. for the clause on the first night, but the Noble Lord came down the succeeding night and negatived that very clause. • But what did he (Mr. Brougham) aim at by the enumeration of those instances? The result -at which he arrived went to show, most clearly and unequivocally, that such was the nature and operation of the overgrown influence of the Executive Government, that whomsoever was appointed Mi nister by the King, that person was sure to command the majori ties in that House. Nine out of ten of the most interesting ques tions discussed in that House were carried by majorities com manded by the Minister, `independent of the merits of the ques tions themselves. Thosemajorities were commanded by obtain in favours for friends and relations ; by conferring civilities o n adherents, and by doing offices of kindness, all which did not ex actly amount to the possession of office, but which amounted to as great and absolute a disqualification for discharging properly the office of a Member of Parliament, as it' they actually possessed office. Finding that to be the case under all Administrations, of any, complexion or policy, and believingit not only expedient, but necessary to remedy the abuses which result from such a system, he, on those grounds which he had stated, had prepared .a Resolution to submit to the consideration of the -House. If the House would pledge themselves to the Resolution, he would afterwards follow it up by some remedial measures. He would remind the House that there were some instances in which the people out of doors had. first set the example of a correct notion of things, in which the Parliament followed, though after a long interval. Who in that House could deny that the public voice would at length prevail ? As long as the people were in the enjoyment of Constitutional liberty—as long as a free press remained in the country—as long as there was an in dependent Bench, and an uncorrupted Bar, and While the doozs of that House were thrown open to the public, and the people were made acquainted through the public press with the proceedings in that House, however unfaithful to the Con stitution the Members of that House might sometimes act, yet they knew they could not lose their Constitutional independence. As long as the press was permitted to give publicity to the pro ceedings of that House, to communicate the sentiment's of the people, and - to distuss and comment on public questions, it was in vain to deny that the public voice would not at length find entrance inside the iralls of that house. But what he complained of was,_ that the mis c hi e f was never ac k now l e d ge d until twenty or thirty years after it was known to exist, but was continued to be done while the Parliament reposed confi dence in the Minister, and assented to no proposition until re commended by him. He complained of the incoincidence of the time in which the expediency of a measure was felt in that House and outside of it. They never waked from their le thargic repose until the rec. poprtli disturbed it. At length, however, the voice of the people from without made itself heard. He instanced, in the case of the Slave Trade, that the groans of humanity had not, till after a long time, reached that House, and a lapse of thirty years were required to pro duce that effect, which a Reformed Parliament—(Hear, hear and cheers)—would have done in as many months. The question of the Slave Trade was an illustration of the power and influence of the Minister. Every thing was favourable to that great cause except that the Minister did not come .down and make it a Cabinet question, which would at once have insured its success. In the year 1805, that question was proposed, and the Bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade thrown out by a great majority. But in the next year, when Mr, Fox was •- Minister, that great , man came down, and in .his place ; in Parliament proposed'his measure for the abolition of the trade, and the ResolutiOn :was carried by a majority of ren. The question at length was finally carried by a majority of, 266 to 16, although some few years before there was as great is majority against it. The Noble Lordcould not, et till times, put into use his threat of going • out of office day after day, in case-any proposition was carried against him. It was the duty of the House to look to the change of sentiment out of doers, to regard the disposition of the great mass of the people, and to do their duty towards the country. a -. The best way to consult the public feeling was to reducothe ex peces of the establishments as much as possible, and after that to effect a - Reform in Parliament, and to bring the people as near them as possible. The effect of the prescaL overgrown esta blishments was to detach the great mass of the people, and to remove them farther from their reprentatives ; but they would be brought back if a Reform had taken place in Par liament. That would b e th e e ff ec t of the House's pledging itself to the Resolution which •he would • propose for their adoption. His object was to bring the Parliament nearer to the people. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded, by, proposing the following. Resolution :—" That the influence now possessed by the Crown was unnecessary to the maim, tenance of a constitutional prerogative, was destructive of the independence of Parliament, and inconsistent with a wellej governed State." The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he had to bespeak the favourable indulgence of the House, while he as shortly as possible followed the course of argument taken by the Honourable and 'Learned Gentleman. The proposition of the Honourable and Learned Member appeared to be founded in a great measure on a calculation of the public expendi ture ;—and if he could indece the House to sustain his pro position, he intended, it seemed, to advance a measure the nature of which he (the Marquis) could not collect from the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, until he had kindly disclosed it at the end. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man had declared his intention to propose a Reform of the Par liament. Now, he had no objection in the world to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's attempting to reform the Parlia ment.. It had been attempted before in the course of the pre sent Session, and undoubtedly the Hon. and Learned Member had a right, if he pleased, to return to the charge t but he ought not to do this under cover of dimini s hin g th e in fl uence o f the Crown. He was happy to assure the House that he could join issue with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to most of the facts he had advanced in support of his arguments. lie should not enter into the motive of any individual Member of Parliament; but he denied, in the outset, it was of the cor rupt 'nature attributed to it by the Hon. avid Learned Gentle man. He believed that the influence of the Crown gave strength to the opinion of large &dim At the same time he admitted that that influence had at times been, excessive, and that the mea sures which, as appeared by history, had at various times been brought forward to restrain ite had been constructed on prin ciples of sound and good legislation ; and he hoped the same degree of vigilance would continue to be observed towards that influence;' and if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made out a case of the existence of influence inconsistent with the liberties of Parliament, it would be their duty to take imme diate steps-to check_ the growth of it. - But he had no right to argue as lie_had done, by asserting that the influence of the Crown was great, end assuming, therefore, thatehere should be a. Reform in Tarliameet. That was the real object of his motion; for he had distinctlyetated that it was to a reformed Parliament that they were to look for a remedy to all the evils of the last twenty years. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman drew a comparison betwixt the extent of the influence of, the Crown in 1780, when the Parliament voted that it was excessive; and after endeavouring to make it appear that that influence had increased since that period, came to a conclusion that it was excessive now. His mode of making the comparison, how ever, was , not a fair one, by taking the amount of the revenue in the gross, and the comparative numbers of the Army and Navy. That was not treating the question upon its own basis, not coming so much to close quarters, as he could have wish e d. The narrower basis wasetheextent,of the infra ;MCC of the Crown in Parliament. But taking the extent of the revenue in time of, war was by no means an equitable way; and he must, here say that he found a spirit of exaggeration run through the whole of the Hon. and Learned Gentieman's statement upon this occae sion. All his figures were augmented beyond their fair arid real amount, end all his extracts distorted in a manner that it would ill become the House to allow itself to come to a con clusion upon, in a matter pregnant with such deep importance and danger. For instance, he stated, the revenue and expen diture for the present year at 28,000,000, whereas it was only -18,000,000. In the same way, he quoted the Army at 33,000 in 1780, whereas the influence of the Crown spread over 60,000, independent of the establishment at home. But when the Honourable and Learned Gentleman compared the extent of the influence of the Crown ,at these two periods, would he also compare the state of the country ? Would he cora- pare the population , at' present with what it was in 1730 ; the difference in point of wealth, and the difference in the state of the public mind' after it had been broken in upon by al/ the dangermas and fatal doctrines, which from the time of the French Revolution, up to the present pe riod, had, come forth to disturb the peace of the world ?—(Hear.) In adverting to the comparative strength of the army anti navy, the Hon. and , Learned Gentlenian stated the number of 27,000 as being under the influence of the Crown ,in the half-pay alone, and then asked theinhoi it was possible to resist this. In the first place he must say, that he was here, as in most of his calculations, (mite .at a loss to conceive where the Honourable and Learned Gentleman riunibersTrom. But he asked, was this numerical kind of argument a fair way of . treating the - question? Ought not rather the basis of the argument to be the spirit in which this amount of influ ence was_ administered ? The Army he was sure was ad ministered upon principles as free from any imputation of party favour as it was possible; and he appealed to many Hon. Members qn the Opposition Benches whether they were not treated, both at the Horse Guards and the Admiralty; with asemuch candour and liberality 'as though they always voted with his Majesty's Ministers.—(Cheers.)—They had already discussed the two services in point of amount, and he chal lenged any one to make out a case of abuse in the employ ' ment of the power they afforded to the Crowii. H The on. and Learned' Gentleman next we n t to the Colonies, and stated , the increase .of offices in that department of influence at 800.— Where he got his materials from; he (the Marquis of London derry) did not know ; but although he was not prepared to go into detail for the information of the House, he would un dertake to say, that if returns on that subject were laid before the House, they would find, that he had doubled the number from what it actually was. He supposed he had treated as Offices under the. Crown all the offices in the Colonies, and even then to make good his numbershe must have had recourse to the most merii t el offices. He had got a statem e nt o f h ow thi s matter stood in our of. the .principal Colonies, from which it appeared that seven-eighths of the . whole. appointments that had been filled up by native servants, were appointed by the Colonial Government.—(Hear, hear, hear!)—ln some there were not more than three or four, and in none more than seven or eight offices under the appointment of the Crown at all.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—lt would have been but fair in the Honourable and . Learned Gentleman, in considering thi, part of the case, to e have given Gov er n men t cre dit f or w h at they had done to diminish the influence of the Crown in the Colonies: If he had acted with as much candour, he would have had to inform th e House of their abolition of nu merous patent offices compatible with seats in that House.— (Hear, hear !)-4Accortling to the existing regulations, no of fices could be held by persons who did not go out themselves to the Colonies; and in that particular the whole influence of the Crown had been changed and subverted.—( Hear !)—The law which had wrought -this change not . only divested the Crown of the power over twenty-nine officers for political pur poses, but it absolutely; turned out twenty-nine persons from that House. He must next follow the Honourable Gentle man to the East Indies; and upon that part of the statement he could merely observe, in the absence of details, that when he belonged to that department of the State, it would have been considered a year of extraordinary harvest, had any such amount of patronage as helad stated occurred. The third of what he had stated would be nearer the truth ; and then it was to be considered that this patronage was granted by the Com pany as matter of grace and favour to the Board of Controul; and not to the Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man stated, that the charge of collecting the revenue of fifty millions was four milliorts'at first; whereas in 1780 it was only one million. In Order to place this part of the question in its true light, it was , necessary to look at the comparative numbers employed, with the amount collected. He held in his hand an account of this nature, for the Customs of the year 1797; as compared with that of 1821, and lie should have taken his information from 1792, being the more usual year of refe rence, were it not that the records for that year had been burnt. In the year 1797, it appeared that the number of officers em ployed for the Custom Revenue was 5,723. The number em ployed last year, 1821, was 8,364 persons. Thus the increase was less than 1,000, and the diflerence in the amount of re venue collected was between 11,505,0001. for the latter year, and 6,000,0091. for the former.---(flear, hear!)—The amount collected, therefore, was double, and the number employed for that purpose had increased only one-seventh. An increase of one-third had taken place in the salaries, but that was principally owing to a commutation which had been made for fees,' but the influence of the Crown had, in no way been swelled by that. It was much the same in the Excise.— In 1792 the number of officers was 4,693; for the year 1821 it was 5,665. The salaries in the former year were 318,0001., in the latter 633,0601., having doubled in amount from the same cause as he had stated to operate in the Customs. The reve nue in the two . cases was 8,120,0001. and . 24,64714 shew ing the increase in the number of persons employed at less than 10001,' with an augmentation in the revenue of 18,000,0001. sterling. He next Cale to the, taxes, which gave a difference, of from 3,500,0001., as they' , were in 1792, and 7,400,00 W. as at present. The number of Officers for the former period was two hundred and twenty, and for the latter two hundred and eighty-seven. In the Stamps the difference was from 3,400,0001., to &,100,0001., and the number of perions employed was now exactly the same as then, viz. 24. Thus he was sure it must be. obvious that the whole r egu l a ti ons o f t h e serv i ce , so f ar f rom being fraMed to encourage patronage, shewed that the authors of them were in search of a principle of sound financial admi nistration of the resources of tile country. In the Customs there were certain, regulations es to age observed with regard to all persons admitted, and their promotion took place ,ac cording to merit and previous examination. The lion. and Learned Gentleman said that the Treasury had extended its grasping arms into every department of the State, and he par ticularised the Excise. Now he defied him to make out this assertion, and he protested against any such being received by the House. The Board of Excise had as complete controul over their department now as at any former period, and every, thing relating to that department shewed the reverse of any principle that arrived at patronage. Vie most curious part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's cage was where he attempted to esta blish the existence of great Crown influence from thirty mil lions paid to the public creditor. In order to assist his argu menehere, he was obliged to have recourse to the Exchequer processes, upon which he had raised a very learned laiv argu ment, no doubt, but the bearing of which on the question he hoped he should be excused for saying be could not at all un e derstand. lie believed, in pciat of fact, that so far from 'the' Exchequer processes being increased during the period he had alluded to, the taxes had been collected throughout a period of great and general .distress with less recurrence to legal pro cesses for the last two years, and . particidarly this year, than at any other known time. It was impossible for him to go into the instances quoted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, which, after all; applied more to, the severity of the law, than to the question before them ; but he must say, that if he wished to derive any benefit from that part of his argument, built upon a supposed mistaken increase in the number of Exchequer processes, he must thoroughly revise it. The next point of attack was the — iriflitenee .in Parliament from the number of the officers of the Crown. The lion. and Learned Gentleman here stated that the number of placemen in Par liament at present Was eiglity. Hero again lie must observe, that he must be in possession of more materials fbr calculation than he (the Marquis oflondonderry) had access to, as he found himself quite unable to keep . ' pace with him. He had however taken great pains to inforiW liiinialf.on this subject, and the result of his investigation was, that there were not more than 47 or. 48 perions in that House who held offices under the Crown, that could-in any sense be said to. give the Crown any influence over them. Indeed;: he thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must have :drawn largely on the stores of placcmen around him, to be able at all to make out his num bers. He thoUght that he must have included the Hon. Mbrn her from Caine ' and the llon.•7viember for Bath,. and also the Hon. Member for Peterborough must have been paraded on the occasion. But upon reviewing these troops, if they must be mustered, he thought they did not savour much of ;hat ruin ous influence - of the Crown which was represented as bearing clown all before' it., He was ready to admit that constitu tional jealousy might very Properly, be entertained towards a number of persons.. acting, together, who were very, likely-. to be actuated by a feeling in favour oldie course of politics pur sued by each other. - He had never complained of such a jealousy being felt, but he complained that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman should argue, that every thing in,the . House, except the Officers of the Crown, was deserving of the utmost stretch of confidence. He complained of the assumption, though perhaps- the Honourable and Learned Gentleman did nor claim that,for himself, of exclusive puiity in the Hon. Members on the other side of the house. But as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made such attacks upon the Parliament, the•best way would be to look at the conduct of Parliament from the very period which he chose as his pe riod for comparison; the year 1780. Looking at that conduct, he asked, whether it had not been actuated by , a principle to• restrain the influence of the Crown in every point .which could be construed as capable, of corrupt influenc e , an d o f placing - the influence of the Crown upon a narrower footing even in Par liament itself ? The Noble Marquis proceeded to take a review of the different Acts for the abridgement of the influence of . the Crown, since the year 1780. He directed the attention of the House to the exertions of Mr. Pitt in tnaking the loans for Go vernment subjects of open competition. In the giving Up much powerful means of rewarding, his own creatures; the Minister of that day Could scarcely he supposed to have been actuated by any desire of patronage. That, as well as other instances, furnished proofs of large and signal restrictions of the influ ence on the Crown imposed by the Parliament, so much the object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's revilings. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had mis-stated the late Mr. Rose in making him say that Mr. Pitt had reduced four or five bun tired officers, and created fifteen hundred. He said no such thing; but on the contrary that 480 had been reduced and 200 odd created. Mr. Pitt, in 1804, abolished 196 offices, amounting to 42,0001. a year, all of which being sinecures of three, four, and five hundred a year, were those of which a Minister desirous of retaining patronage would be most loth to part with. 'nue. the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alleged that the increase of offices was proportionate with the increase in the revenue; but it was found not to be so. He had made similar mistakes in the oth er p ar t s o f hi s statement. But look ing at what he had atatesl, and at th e con d uc t o f G overnment since the Peace, he thought there would be found a sufficient answer to that part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's ar gument which was intended' to prove that Parliament was dis qualified from the discharge of its functions. He had not yet shewn to the House in one point of view all the reductions which had been made in Offices since the Peace. He had' early in the Session shewn that a saving 'of 150,0001. had been made in such reductions, in consequence of the Address to the Crown at the end of the last Session. But, exclusive of that, between the closing of the last war and the Address of last year, without any call from the house, Government had made an investigation into the different departments of the State, the result of which was, that 1699 Officers had been reduced, and offices suppressed, creating a saving of 360,0001.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—exclusive of the 150,0001 before stated. By the Bill of the Honourable Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes), with those already stated, that 2012 persons, had been dismis sed, making a saving of 730,0001. exclusive of that last year. This chewed that there had been no indisposition on the part of his Majesty's Government ao push the principle of reduc tion of the influence of the Crown to every commendable extent. And at this period an inquiry was going on into every Depart ment of public service with a view to reduction, by Commis sioners appointed Isy Parliament. Having therefore shewn that every step had been taken that could consistently be taken, and that the' principle was still in progress. to dimi nish the extent of Government patronage; unless it was. the intention of the Honourable and Learned, Gentleman to contend that the patronage of-the public officers should be taken out of the hands of Government, .and vested in sonic other'quarter, he thought he had no foUndatiou on which to rest his motion. But the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman had - not - directed his shafts against Government alone, he had reviled the Parliament, and that Parliament, which had saved, not this country alone, but the world, was now to be degraded by coining to such a vote as he had proposed to them.—(Hear, hear !)—lf he had no better means of attacking the conduct Of Parliament than by al leging.that h one night agreed to a Bill for the repeal of the i'lalt Tax, hnd next night rejected it s he had better leave it alone. For unless he meant to say, that a full House teas to be subordinate and ofless importance than a thin one, and that all the apparatus of passing a Bill in that House, the different stages of which were intended to guard against surprise, ma nagement, and neglect or ignorance, had better be dispensed with, his argument was good for nothing. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it was odd that that House should al ways support the Minister of the day. If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would spew them how a-Minister was to go on without the support of the House, he would assist him in return to a solution of the enigma of a House of Commons always supporting the Ministers. It was that Parliament had' always opposed itself to those revolutionary principles which were aimed' to sweep all the institutions of the earth before them, and cause one universal destruction and disunion of the interests and elements of society. It had saved this coun try from a foreign enemy, and protected it against an infa tuated party at home. 'throughout the whole of the late eventful reign, in which was involved all that was dear to the liberties of this country and of the world, it had maintained one steady march. The Parliament had supported the Crown in all it had done, and it was 'not the gloomy forebodings of the lion. Gentleman, nor his open and indirect efforts, that had been able to arrest its progress in its wise and magnanimous course. Yet notwithstanding that it had conducted them through a time of eventful and unexampled peril, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated that was not qualified to conduct the affairs of the nation. It' ha saved the character of . the country, and he would never stand by and see it degrade itself by such a vote as that proposed by the Hon and Learned Gen tleman. He called upon the House not to countenance this covert motion for Reform. He warned them that that was the object of it; and that the Honourable and Learned Gentle man would never be contented with the Bill for abolishing the petty offices he had talked of, - nor by the removal of the Members of that House alluded to by him. If they granted him that motion, he would soon come to them again and tell them that he should be unworthy the confidence placed in him by the House, if he did not tell them that nothing in conform ance with the Resolution for diminishing the influence of the Crown could be done, whilst that great nuisance, Parliament itself, continued to exist. He would call upon them to be true to themselves,, and accomplish a Reform in Parliament, the basis of which was laid in his Resolution. It was not the in fluence of the Crown that he aimed at. .14 was indirectly at tempting to sap' the foundation of Parliament; well knowing that if Parliament could be brought to stigmatize its own cha racter, it would not be long before hetouldachieve its destruc aion.—(Hear, hear!)—These were the grounds upon which he hoped the House would pass to the Order of the Day, and give no countenance to the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gen tlernan.—(Cheering.) The Hon. G. BENNET said, after the able speech of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Brougham), and also - of the able speech of the Noble Marquis, there were still some points on which he begged leave to address the House. Ile felt that the influence of the Crown was too strong for the interests of the people. The influence of the Crown increased with the increase of the revenue, just in the same proportion as it would -do in the affairs of individuals. Near twenty thousand civil officers were under the influence of the Crown, not properly selected, as stated by the Noble Lord. There were hundreds who could tell from what unworthy motives many of those persons, were app,einted. He himself could tell instances, particularly in the Post-office, where the whole pa tronage was in the hands of the Postmasters-General—in the year 1780. Now, however, it was altogether wider the control of the Treasury. The same thin occurred in the Stan -office. There were more than 9000 persons employed in the Customs and Excise ; in fact, there was a standing army of those persons, nearly equal in amount to the armyiwhich fought our battles in the better timesof our history. The same bitter spirit might not operate on the Government as it did in former times ; but, still he, could chew, since 1793, th a t 989 o ffi cers were di smisse d f rom the army. That then became of the idle talk, that the Crown exercised no undue 'discretion or patronage in the army ? In the collection of theCustonts there was an advance of nearly 3 per cent. ; and did that afford no means, of patronage ? -There were besides 87 persons in the House having salaries to the' amount of 160,0001. a-year, and 73 Peers in the army and navy: With respeciAnthe Church, the influence was inn sense; and in England a: }le (not speaking ,of Ireland, where the largest, sums were paid for doing nothing) there were two Archbishops, 24 Bishops, many Deans and Prebends, and above 1000 Livings! Was such a patronage nothing- ? 'then, let the House look at, the persons brought out of thi s H ouse i nto the HouSe of Peers' as bribes for their support of the Government. In 1780, the. total number was 225 ; now it was 378. The increase, how ever, particularly took place in the Batons. In 1760 there was one Marquis ; now there were 18. In 1780 there were 78 Earls; now there were 101). But to the increase in the Barons he begged to call the particular attention of the House. In 1780 Om were f 35, and now there were 1421 It was the influence of these persons in the House. an d tneir support of Ministers, which gave them this step. Th e N o bl e Lord concluded with a panegyric, on the late Parliament; but litele could be said of that, Parliament Ohich Ultimately fill by its own imbecility ; although the- Crown had so long stood by it—although it was opposed by such men as Pitt, 'Fox, and I. , heridan, by, a Whit. bread and a Romilly--a Parliament as imbecile and as den gerous as ever existed in this tountry. When the situation of the country, at present, was compared with that of 1792, he was wlling to try the question' by. the effect of that comparison. 'There. were two means of reforming the state of things • the first was, by turning out of th e H ouse t h ose placemen who, to use the language of cur ancestors, held livery of the Crown ; And the second was, by reforming the mode of Govermhent.— (Hear, hear!)) Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that if the Hon. Gentlemen op posite could convince him that the House of Commons had erred to the extent they had stated, he would , immediately be come a reformer. But he thought the Honourable and Learn ed Gentleman, in tracing the history of the House of Com mons for the last twenty years, bad arraigned the House on false grounds. He (Mr. Wortley) had been a. Member of the House during that period, and he would follow the Learned Gentleman through it. It was worthy of, remark' that the motion of the Honourable Member, though it complaint(' of an undue influence, yet pointed out no plan for reducing that influence, except by Parliamentary Reform. Now he was willing to meet the Honourable Gentleman on that ground, for he did not think Reform necessary.—(Hear, hear !)—But to come tq closer quarters. .The Honourable Gentleman had first - referred to the period when Mr. Pitt resigned and Mr. Addington took office. The statement of the Hon. Gentleman had been true, but his inferences false. The House of Com _ mons had supported both these Gentlemen, because they had given no reason for withdr a wi ng th e i r con fid ence w hil st Ministers. The next-occasion was the accession of Mr.-Fox to office. At Mr. Pitt's death the Government had fallen naturally into Mr. Fox's hand. The latter had been the leader of a powerful party, and he thought . that it would not have given Mr. Fox fair play had he not succeeded his rival. He agreed with the Honourable Member .in his censure on the admission of Lord Ellenborough into the Cabinet, although he wondered that such a remark should come from the other side. He would pass over some of the votes of the House to which the Hon. and Learned Member had re. • 3tl w as f th el e red mo th st e d nl ifi d to participated in that vote; and if any blame was to be attac he,,lon and cult to com de e fe a n t d o , n v c i e z. t t o h t e h l a i f ,a w i hi ch c e h re l n ie ex co p n e f di es s ti it, he must also participate in the censure. But he catte,",' i be the House to consider the circumstances under wine' o il nation then labo ure d. Th e country had then been c solar l in a war with F rance ; t h ey would recollect what th e solo ing of the peopl e h a d b een w i th regard to t h e Pea% die war, and certainly th ere h a d b een a waht of con fidence ileo . Gentlemen opposite, arising from the opinions of thos e " I le a Gentlemen respecting that war. The G en tl e men opposite but exulted openly in the failure of the Walcheren expedition.; jo they had regarded that failure merely as the means of theiro,, bt n" advancement to power. The House had therefore therefore' in giving its vote, to consider its certain effect, and, th t b o se though the expedition might be wrong,,yet the motives 0 1 „, er , Members who had supported the Ministers might 11314 bee fectly right. In reviewing the votes of the present the Honourable Member had alluded to the Malt 14 pia He thought that allusion was somewhat extraordinary' the • e a by the Hon. al ember ima g i ne th at t h e fi rst op i nion expres s t he House was always to he deci s i ve o f t h e i r sent i men ts ? In the Malt Tax th e H ouse h a d b een taken by surprise, and he O a _ t he that the second vo t e h a d b een regarded by the people oiso deliberate sen se o f t h e H ouse. The Hon. Member ba c ' t he alluded to th e p art w hi c h h e (Mr. S. W.) had acte d ot t i b of tleath of Mr. Perceval.' He had th en cons id ere d the de a d t he Mr. Percev a l as th e d eat h - b low of the Administration, and majority of th a t H ouse h a d concurred in that opinion• der of had been the consequence ? T he persons applied to by °r old his Majesty had been opposed to those so power; °11 ::PrIS, remember the unrea sona bl e propos i t i on made by those Pie and the con sequence h a d been that the country had b ec h a d tired of the un cer t a i nty in which it had been left, A e the thoughtion better thatnone. a s c long ould tithldeisa rassat tinned to flatt er th e un d ue prejudices of the people, the c. part of the commu n ity wou ld never give them that de..r_.," of confidence which would pl ace t h em in the Govertime n , t f Those. Hon. Gentlemen assume d a great deal on the chantl{:• the tone of public opinion on the subject of ParliamentarY der . form. He allowed that the temper of the public had e a th e t gone a change ; but he thought that a sure remedy 00 Ile head would be found in patient and temperate discussion• or was sure that the more the subjeet was - discussed the g w e it would the good s ense o f t h e country return ; and the, in :drat would be seen th a t th e sa f ety of the nation was not dept on a Reform in that House.—(Hear peale d Mr. PEEL, am id st a l ou d cry for the " Question, " aP bich to the feeling s o f t h e G ent l emen opposite (those feelings w they must experience when they heard their constituent s f r a s represented) as justification for rising to address a few , * b o y.. to the House. He laboured under the disadvantage of P t a be ing heard the Honourable and Learned Gentleman vi“ e-- t t o used the expression to which he (Mr. reel) was now 31°1 04 allude; but he understood that that Hon. Gentleman or, made somereference to that disti ngu i s h e d b o d y w hi c h he lion. Peel) had the hon our t o represent. He understood that the: Est Gentleman, on ill us t ra ti ng t h e power of the Crown out °' f t he House, had c as t some i mputations upon the conduc t O. of University of O x f or d. N ow h e thought that if any boaltvo persons in the kin g d om was f ree f rom such an imputation, !t the University of Oxford. With regard to the sPe,cil, c d , it stances to which the Hon. and Learned Gent. had ah l t rar Th tea appeared to him that he had not been sufficiently we" - , had in the inferences which he had drawn. The Hon. Ge n " of found fault with the election of Lord Grenville to the office h o Chancellor of the Univ ers it y at a part i cular period, ond,t i e aif complained that th e con d uct o f t h e University in 1817 "7„,gued fered on the Cath o li c quest i on from that which had been Pu'"ioe, in 1807. Now, w i t h regard to the election of Lord Orenv Tin he would only call upon the House to consider the public P aw l ciples of that N o bl eman —hi s attachment -to the Ecclesias interests—his uniform line of conduct in opposition to those ciples which signalized the beginning of the late war--an t h e n character in the U n i vers it y as an eminent scholar—ate oc he would ask th em , w h et h er i t was possible that any rhea favourable to the moti ves o f t h e U n i versity cou ld be in ;'" t i o o from his election ? And when they also'considered that,h o ; ig ht elected in opposition to th e L or d Ch ance ll or E ld on, he ' P ._ - z eiv that that circumstance alone would skew the high Wi th tion in which Lord Grenville had been regarded. the re respect to the measure of 1807, he would recal to collection of the House the marked difference of and ,''coin' stances existing in th e y ears 1807 lBl7.—ln 1801, u'oe ,the seientious sc ru pl es o f hi s l ate Majesty on the subjectratho- Catholic claim s h a d b een we ll k nown, and even many tithe lies had refused to p ress th e i r c l a i ms, because they had the aware of the state o f th e M onarc h' s f ee li ngs. But in I°l7l'd be state of circumstances h a d b een ent i re l y changed. It Ivo° t he presumption in him to tr es p ass f urt h er on - t h e attention 0- , for House, but he hoped that he had shewn a sufficient excuse the interruption which he had given. of Mr. WETHEREL 4L spoke a few wo r d s i n exp l an a.- the conduct of the University of Oxford. Mr. BROUGHAM then rose to reply.—He disclaimed n .. imputation upon the University for its choice of Lord G r t bo ville ; but he contend e d that choice was influenced by,. near approach of that Noble Lord getting qUalities which the Right Honourable Gentleman talked; much of, would never have recommended him, if he w ere _ale about to become a Minister of the Crown. The Honourathe i nto place. I ~ Member now went on to show that it was contrary t ° ,„ oa s principles of the constit u ti on o f t h e H ouse o f CotT ior ra to continue to give it s con fid ence to any set o f men Bad the King should chose to • appoint as his Ministers keep in their places,' although they might be unworthy % t f o confidence. At a time w h en we were t h reatene d with to, sion, and when the French were thundering at our Kin ts g wished, and' this he would say was a most unconstitutional pri - , of ing. He should not say any thing respecting the ca lculatiou re d the Noble Lord, b ecause t h ey h a d b een so ably o„,lasjie by his his Hon. Friend the. Member for Shrewsbury. '-t n ce crease of our debt had g i ven a great i ncrease to t h e inth' e t b e t of the Crorin, and he cont e nd e d t h at i n order to me et de danger, It was necessary to make changes in variouscon partments, in order to keep up the equilibrium of the id he stitution, by which alone the da ngerous i n fl uence CO be counteracted. The only eq u itabl e counterpo i se t h at c oin o j e made was, that of making a more equal change in the °l ila; of electing Representatives, and subjecting 'them more I ' d he control o the people than they were at present. It wollittle sound wisdom for the Members of that House to look t ot , of before them, and to consider wh a t wou ld gratify the wish ca Ito*, who had too long b een i n the habit of looking tio the Parliament without effect. The House then divided ; the numbers were— For the Motion - - 101 For the Amendment - 216 Majority - - X ll5 The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of. House adjourned at a QUARTER. BEFORE ONE O'CL°Cl'. CITY, MbNDAY EVENING Advices have thii-morning been received from Cot's tanti nople via OdesSa, dated the 16th o f M ay . Th ey eo nfir° til t ! news which were a few days ago commun i ca t e d by 1A- * Morning Chro n i c l e t o th e p u bli c , o f t h e CAprrA24 paCS n• having ordered seve n ty- s i x h ostages , cons i st i ng o f the P" r ' a cipal inhabitants of Sob, to he strangled in that ill-fate. island. Some of the Ministerial prints have been I ° d l of their praises of the humanity and civilized d epo itinelif et i this wretch. To cut th e th roa t s o f t h e d e f ence l ess ; a nd to l eo. the way in licenti ousness an d revenge, seems to b e hiss t ,d, qualifications for the comm an d w ith w hi c h h e h as b een entru" - r e and certainly 'the Porte could not have select e d any one 11 . 1- 0 capable of duly performi ng h er or d ers to c h ast i se h er rebellio Christian subjects. Bet w i x t 40 an d 50 G ree k s from the Isi n e le had also been legally b u t c h ere d a t C onstant i no ple." - t e he offerings of Christian blood must be highly pleasing t° „ s t followers of the Prophet, and th e grea t l esson w hi c h thei lti ti " -t teach to all nations . presuming to think for themselves , 11) 4, be peculiarly gratifying to the Holy Alliance. From St. The tersburgh the letters are dated on the sth of JunZ olo a ne l CIESAIL of the East was, at th a t p er i o d, as m ild as the of the Londonderry Milid a could possibly desire, and it w ho pears that his character was much, mistiken by those, -the suppose that he was capable of attempting to injur e t he Turks either by threats or force of arms even though reward should have been the bl ess i ngs c f civilized Europivel: and an- extension of glory, plover, and wealth to his : va - Empire.' The letters from Odessa say nothing of the ea ; cuation of Moldavia or W a ll ac hi a h av i ng b ee n comPle t and the rumour of the T u rk s h av i ng re f use d t o withdraw feti_., theie provinces iein a i ns equa lly w i t h out con fi rma tion ,or enn a tradiction. The Exchange at St. Petenburgh on London Ise, shade lower, being quoted on the sth current 9 15-1 6 T 3. had fallen to It. 100, being a little more' than 30s, on h° —Clean hemp . could be purchased, at R. 82. On the l o n e. commerce, as in that state of depression which mus t cessity result from prohibitory and restrictive enactinenotso.. At Odessa there was 'no alteration in the e xchange l a be en low nO business was doing. Of corn large supplies ha _ a. . received • and the prices, df wheat' were lower, notwithstne, ing considerable shipments had been made, for Constantin°rrnt. —From Hamburgh the letters lire dated n the 18th cur t (i icr Trade was then extremely dull, excepting that the dry wea we re had created some alarm, for the crops and all kinds of graitit 5 a l t s t p w e o r i c n e o n o t. th d a e , a a r dearer. The 37 T -3 h e fo e i x . o a r n t g p e Ft o p ; r Loi Q. Petersburgh the exchange was 9 3-16, and on Paris . 6 37 f f m o r 1 1) 0 i l t l o s Gold was quoted 103.—(Morning Chronicle.) , t 1 tio taint Tt