The Sun. — London, England, 1832-03-29 00:00:00

ferees to the number to which they amounted at the period of the present Adminietr.tien coming into offlee—namely. to the numb-r at which they were left by the Duke of Weli'neton—e coneieerahle reduction would he eff e r e e Secondly, he was of I that the erpence of the Wig gnn Train mieht be got rid of. He thought that, in tit. next place, a cimsrlerobl- reduction mi e ht be made uiti respect to the exp-nee of the recruiting department. Un der the head of the mess allewanc ~ he also thought th ae some seeing mizi.t he male in this way. An allowance had been granted some years sec under that heed, on ac count of the duty on win-, and as the cause had new ceased, he thought that the el owence in goes ion should also cease. It Appeered to him &lee, that as regarded the extiensts of the t .ble for officecs at Si. James's a saving of 500/. might be e ffected in that instance by pl mine it ou the same f ovine wit a aimil.r table in Dublin Castle ; which. upon inquiry, he understoo.l ^se some (finely w ti served. As to the riding establishment, he was of opinion that it might he got rid of almge.her. The next material reduction which he had euegesitd was under the head o the public dep irtmente connected with the army. Leoltine at theamount of the estimate, 28.0001. a yew for th- Horse Gu rd., it appeared to him that a great saving, as well as much more punctuality, might he effeetsd in that depart. men% It appeared to him, further, that if the system of army extraordinaries was got rid of, we could then get rid of the comptiiillershipe of the army accounts, and the mienr branches o f shit office. He also thought that the Road night he reduced, and that the Military Cellece should hr coefined to mere instruction. Looking at the expense incurred for Chelsea hospital, acid takir g into consieeretion the duties performed there, he could not shut his eyes to what took place in that establishment. Wnat was his plan as regarded that portion of the public experiditure? He was fur transferring tie: duties of the. estetiliehinent, so far as recanted the payment of out-pen• sinners, to a place where they would he better performed— namely. to the War Office ; and he was for ketting rid of :he whole establishment, as regarded in-pensioners, elto getleer. He believed that he could prove, to the satisfac tion of the House, that it was very difficult to get pen• sinners to go in there, and that a great needless expense was incurred in the maintenance of that part of the esta blishment. He was also of opinion that the present plan of clothing the army should be changed, and in that in stance, too, he could show that a considerable saving might be made to the public. There was not one of the eonclusions to which he had come that he was not sure he would be able to produce proofs in writing of their cor rectness ; and he was equally certain that he would be able to establish, upou fully intelligible grounds, the v due and propriety of the suggestions which he had made on this subject to his Majesty's Government. He was tho roughly convinced that lie would be perfectly able to tie fend every reduction which he had proposed. He begged to observe, that almost all the non-effective charges for the last few years had been more or less increased. The pay of the soldier was increased in 1806, and he admitted that it was increased with r•ason then ; but one great reason for that increase—to wit, the change in the currency— had ceased to exist. Ile protested against the system of dividing the army estimates into four divisions, and con tended that great simplification and a saving of expense might be effected by consolidating them. He had made this statement on this occasion with no hostile intention towards his Majesty's :Ministers; he had made it in order to show that while in office he had not departed from the principles which he formerly professed, and he confessed that he felt some disappointment at not being able to carry into effect that which he ardently wished to do—namely, the presenting the Army Estimates to the House arranged in the shape he had just mentioned. He had an impres sion when he laid a draught of those estimates in that shape before hi. Noble Friend, that he should not he sup ported in the way that he thought he night to be sup ported by his Maj. sty'. Government on the subject, and he was sure his Noble Fiiend would hear him out in the statement which he (Sir IL Parnell) then made to bias ; that lie wou!d not continue to hold office unless he was supported, as he conceived he ought to he, by the Go vernment, in carrying into effect the proposed reductions. Lord ALTHORP said that what had just been stated by his Right Hon. Friend rendered it necessary for him to address a few words to the Committee. Hie Right Hon. Friend had said, that when lie carne into office it was to carry into effect those views which he entertained while out of office; but his Right Hon. Friend would do him (Lord Althorp) the justice to say, that he (Lord Al. thorp) toll him at the time, that with regard to what ever views he would satisfy him were correct ones, he should have his (Lord Althorp's) support. It was true the. his Right Hon. Friend put a rough —a very reugh— statement of tee reductions which he proposed into his (Lord Althorp's) bands, in October last; but the Com mittee must see, that a subject which involved a great change in the military system of the country was one that required very deep and serious consideration.—( Hear, hear.) Having the rough statement before him, witaout the explanations, it was impossible for him (Lord Al thorp). in the absence of his Right Hon. Friend, to see how fat they could be carried into practical effect. He was sure that the Committee would agree with him in thinking that his Right Hon. Friend near him tied right, considering the short time he was in the office, to claim some indulgence in bringing forward those estimate., on this occasion Hr was free to admit that in many of the principle's which had b en stated by his Right Hon. ' Friend opposite, he coincided, hut unless they were worked out into a prac•ical term, it wotald be impossible fir him to concur in teeir application. Utiles, a consi derat-le change was made in the system of the Commender in-Chiet's office, it would he impossible to e ffect many of t• e reductions which his R:glit Hon Friend proposed. and it would require a great deal of time to discuss the subject, and a greet ii, al of Labour to carry his views ion, effect. With regard to the system of clothing the army. it was true that his Right Hon. Friend had stared to him a plan founded upon calculations which went to sh•itv that a great reduction might he made in that particular, but on hie ( Lord Althorp's) making in quiry amongst other persons possessed of a kn wedge of the subject, he found that their calculations were directly the reverse of those 0. his Right Hon Frieud— that was to say, that they tended to prove that instead of a saving, a small ,additional expense would arise trout the ad •ption of his plan. Coder such circumstances, it did appeer to him that a greet deal of time and deliberatinn renulif be required to decide whether, in the suggestions which he had made, his Right Hon. Friend wits righ or wrong. His Right Hon. Friend had stated that the Waggon Train rni ht he reduced, and lie (Lord Altliiirp) was disposed to rgree with him on that polvt; but it tie mention, d at the same time, that persona con versant. .arith the discipline of the at my errertained a tctaliy differ.nt opinion, and maintained that it was absolutely • necessary to preserve it, in order to keep up the efficiency of the army. He doubted very much that his Right Fri- rid would ever have been able to redm e to the amount of 600,0001. as be had stated, consistently with the due maintenance of the efficiency of the military force of the court , ' y. He doineed midi, too, that his Right Hon. Friend would have been able to have effected, as he stated, a reduction of 220,000/. in the present year. The re duction made in the present estimates, with, regard to the military college, was a considerable one, and it was deter mined that this establishment should provide hereafter for its own expen-es.—(Hear.) As to a reduction of the army, he begged to say, that considering the general cir cumstances of this country, and of the world at the time, though he (Lord Althorp) and his Hon. Colleagues hid • entertained an anxione hope tap to the latest period, that they could propose such a reduction in the land forces, they did not think they would be justified in proposing such a reduction at the present moment. That reduction de pended in a great degree on the confidence which the Haulm was inclined to place in the responsible Ministers of the Crown, who must take into consideration whether the amount of forces kept in existence were aosolutely ire swears or not. Now, looking at all the circumstaacee of the country at the present moment, he did not think that his Majesty's Government would be justified in proposing in the present year a large reduction of the military force of the country.—( Hear. ) Colonel DA VIES could not avoid expressing his surprise that his Noble Friend opposite, who was a member of the Finance Committee, and had voted there for every one ,if those reductions, abouli be so long a time m making up his mind to agree with the suggestions of his Right Hon. Friend. Al that he had heard on this subject convinced him of the absolute necessity of having this subject brought under the consideratio n of a Select Committee. His Right Hen. Friend had said that he would effect a reduction of 600,000/. ; but let them give hi m I C„I o n e l Davies) a Se lect Committee, and he would show that a reduction of a million ediliti nal might be made with regard to expenses connected with the army. It he should be fortunate enough to have a seat in a Reformed Parliament, the first thing that he would do should be, to move the appoint ment of such a Committee as that which he now suggested. He must say, that after the promises of the Noble Lord and hie Ri e ht Hon. Frieseshroprposite, he was much dieep pointed in findiak that they hid not redeemed their pled c es as to retturtion in those estimates. Sir H. PA RNELL observed, that his Noble Friend op• posits had spoken of the statement which he Laid before him in October, as a rough one ; but his Noble Friend should recollect that he also laid before him at the same jure, the official documents preinved at the War-uffice. His (Sir H. Parnell's) suggestion, as to the military college, related to the reduction of the military staff. Lord ALTIIORP said, that the statement which his Right Rua. Friend laid before him in the first instance mer,iy a rough one, and that he afterwards laid be t• re him a great mass of papers, which would require . t reat deal of consideration before they could possible be put into such a stare as that they might he brought fur yard in the shape if e.titnates. Captain BOLDERO said, that the attack made by the Right Hon. Member for the Queen's county was one of tile moat unfair that could he mole upon the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo.ite, the army, and the public. That Right Hon. Member was not prepared, it cvou'd appear, to make good a single one of his statements while he was a office. In his (Captain Boldero's) opinion, the state ment made that ev.ning by the Right Hon. Secretary at War was a most fair, lucid, and luminous one. Sir H. HARDINGE would thke upon him to assert, as a military man, and as one who had filled the offices of Sevr.-tary to the Ordnance and S.-cretary at War, that had he Right Hon. Baronet continued in office, and persevered in his p?ans of reduction, the result would have been most mischievous to our military efficiency. The R ght Hon. Baronet relied too much on the mere arithmetical calculi. tinny of civil clerks, for most of the subjects connected with the office of Secretary at War could only be well investieated by persons welt acquainted with military ar rangements. Such, for example, as the subject of military elothing, which he could assure civilians was much more intricate and important than, at first sight, must appear to them. He would he prepared to meet the Right Hou. Baronet whenever he brought forward hi, plans and me thods substantively before the Himse. At present he w uld merely observe that he had heard with regret the Noble ancelaar of the Exchequer declare, with app.rent satisfac tion, that after tliree years the public would be put to no expense fir the education of the orphan sons of officers (20) at the military college. This reduction would justly occasion great dissatisfaction in e army, and in a national point of view was highly injudicious. The French, with whose system of public expenditure the Right Hon. Baronet was just now so much enamoured, bestowed not less than 501. each per annum on their military youths: and even in the United States not less than from 400 to 500 per sons received a military education at West Point College. at the expense 0? the state. Even on a question of pence, the reduction could not be great for educating the twenty orphans hitherto educated at t. e mili ary college. He differed from the Right Hon. Baronet also as to the policy of reducing the waggon-train establishment (at present only 100 men for teaching) further. The estimate fixed but 100 men for this country, while in France, 4,500 were employed in the same important service. The tact was, that the waggon-train would be actually inefficient on the breaking out of a war, without some training during peace, and for that purpose at least 11.0 men were abso lutely necessary. The gallant officer concluded with con gratulating Sir J. HoChouse on the promise which his official career—short as it was—held out of reductions and improvements in the War-office, without impairing the general efficiency of the service. Sir H. PARNELL begged the Right Hnn. and gal lant officer to bear in mint, that while he (Sir H. Parnell) conceived that there was an interest, to which the merely army interest was secondarv,—namely, the public inter est,—(Hear)—the gallant oftcer, like most other military men, seemed to think there was no interest to be crinsi der , d but that of the army.—(Hear) The Secretary at War should virtually be the trustee of the public, and as such, a check upon the tendency of military men to advance tht r own profession at the expense of the pull c —(Hear.) Mr. HUNIE regretted very much that one so well ac quainted with our financial arrangements, and so compe tent to make every reduction in our public establishments not injurious to their real efficiency, as Sir H. Parnell, was not in office so as to afford Ministers the aid of has inva- Idoable counsiel.—(Hear.) He was sure that if he was, there would be a reduction in the mere eff.ctive force of the army, by which 1,200,0001. would annually he saved to the public, and that we should not have so many useless boards, and staff officers, and sinecures, and pension-, as at present pressed upon the industry of the country. He was, contrary to Sir H. Hardinge, rejoiced that the establish ment in which, under the pretext of educating 20 orph in sons of officers, a military staff, with an officer at a salary of 1,000/. per annum, besides house end et ceteras, was about to be saved to the public; and he hoped the day was not far distant when we should have one great consoli dated military school, in which the regular army, the ordnance and the East India Company's officers, would re ceive a proper military education. The gallant ex Secre tary at War had urged the expediency of our keeping up a waggon-train force in peace, on the example of France; but our insular position precluded us from the necessities of France, who, besides from the force of ciretainstinces, was compelled to maintain a war establishment in every branch of her service. The fact was, that war-establishments during peace were doubly objectionable. They, in the first instance, unnecessarily increased the public burdens; and, in the nett, made the Government too ready to meddle with force in matters of no national interest, as was the case with Mr Canning's wild goose-chase expedition, in 1626, to Portugal.—( Hear.) Ministers would find much more pr otitable employment at hotne, in lessening the national hardens, and promoting the arts of peace. A pruning knife was much wanting in our over grown pension and htif-pay lists. Then there was the dead ei g ht, now 2,500,000/., though Lord Castlereagh, so far hack as 1818, deciared that it would annually die away, at the rate of 74 per cent. per annum. Where waa the necessity of our keeping up, in this s venteenth year of peace, not less than 89,000 men, exclusive of ar. tillery, navy, Ice., being 8,000 men more than the amount when the Dukt. of Wellington was in office? Was it the state of the country, particularly of Ireland, that required such an immense military force? Were there not grie vances to he remedied, which, if remedied, would no longer require such a monstrous addition to public burdens ? Was it not in fact a truth that the better the arlininistra tier' of the Gov rnivent, the less wart the aid of force re quired ?—(Hear. ) Let Ireland meet with fair play and even-handed justice, and there would be no occasion for our keeping up there an immense force,—a force which would not, it even increased to 50,000 fighting inert, he sutheiegt to perpetuate the abuse of its present monstrous church es , ablisiiment, should any Government be insane enough to make the attempt.—(Hear.) He saw no rea son why Ireland should not be put upon the foot ing of Scotland. The rensan that Scotland required so small a military force was, ti at she bad so tea* com plaints, for there was no difference as to religi n, and no struggles as to predominance of patti. s. In the last year there Lad been in Scotland only 2,000 or 2,500 men, garrisons in E iinhurgh a.d Stir ling, to keep up what might he necessary in case of an emergency. Than, with respect to V.e colonies, why s h ou ld t ere be a greater force kept up in Canada and Nova Scotia than the whole regular srtny of the United States; and wily should we, with a fleet superior to that of the world, keep up garrisons in places we could re lieve aL any moment, and without any interrupti-n? Still however, tin :er existing circumstances, and while Minis ters were engaged in endeavouring t.. carry into effect a measure which would defeat all attempts at extravagant xpenditure, and having a firm confidence in them that they would make ever) reduction p risible, he would not move for any diminution of the force proposed. Mr. A. BARlNG.—Although he as little approved of useless expenditure as his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex, was nevertheless of opinion that the state of this country, with masses of manufacturers, subject to oc casional distress, and that of Ireland much agitated, re quired that the military force of the country should be kept up to the number proposed. Mr. HUNT contrasted tilt; observations of Sir John llnbi.ouse, as Minister at War, with those he had made as the enemy of standing armies, and said that he bad re ceived that morning resolutions e❑tered into at Hudders— field, declaring that the erpence of clothing one soldier was as much :as would supply eleven manufacturers. Sir J. HOBHOUSE fet it was necessary for him to explain the circumstances in which he found himself upon entering into the situation of Secretary at War. One might imagine, from the speech of the Right Honourable Baronet, that when he went out of office, he lett behind him a regular plan of reduction, which his sue. essor had nothing to do but to act up.di. It was undouleedy true that the Right Honourable Baronet did leave in the Army Office a great mass of pipets ; but they consisted of loose essays, table, and general c dculations, and were intended to form, as he conceived, an extreme statement of what, under a different system, En-gilt he carried into effect. There was riot, however, any specific proposition fur the estimates of the present year. lie bad taken all the strongest points of the Hon. Gentleman's calculations into consideration, and effected a reduction in every one of them, with the exception of that which had been the subject of acme conversation in the course of that even ing. With respect to the other matters to which the Right Hon. Baronet had adverted, they were of so much importance, and required so muco attentive consideration, that he could hardly expect that a Secretary, who had not been more than two months in office, could be prepared with any specific measure. In answer to the Hon. Mem ber for Middlesex, is ho had complained if the amount of the dead weight and the military establishment of the country, he would state, that neither the present Govern ment, nor the preceding Administration, were to be blamed for the existence of time dead weight. It was now impos sible to get entirely rill of it; but no opportunity ought tu be lost of gradually renlueing it. The amount of the military establishment was a question of general politics. it depended on the state of our colonies, of Europe, and of this country ; but this he would say, that the Government would not be blow to propose reductions, whenever the condition of the country would permit them. Sir H. PARNELL had nor left only loose and general calculations at the War-office, hot a specific paper, leaded " An Abstract sr Statement showing the sums voted under the princip .1 heads of the estimates of 1831, and the r-duction proposed to be made in the estimates to he voted in 1832." This paper was the result of eight months' continual application, and exhibited what might be done in the way of reducing the expenditure of the army. Mr. HUME said, that the half•pay list was so great, that every method should be adopted for the purpose of re ducing it. He thought that a certain proportion of all fresh appointmen's ought to he taken from the half-pay hats. S rJ. HOBHOUSE was understood to s:y, that this was a matter over which he had no contruil. Mr. HUNIE said, that that Wai whet he complained of The Commander-in-Chief possessed all the power ; and the Secretory at War was nothing more than a clerk to register his &crops. Lord ALT HORP could not agree in the statement made by the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the Secretary at W a r was nothing hut a clerk to the Commander in-Chief. It was right th it the Commander-in-Chief should have the discipline of the army order his management, and that the Secretary at War should possess a controul over the finances. Colonel EVANS thought that the half-pay list should be more reduced than it was. The higher ranks of the army were filled up in a most improper manner ; and it was a fact, that thirty or forty regio..-nts were com manded by persons who lout seen little nr nothing of actual service. He conceived that the command of a regiment should n..t be ooen to purchase.—( Hear, hear. ) Mr. C. WYNN said it was impossible to effect any di minution of the charge for tie army, except by a reduc tion of the num' er of men ; but when he looked at the 'date of affsirs abroad, as well as the situation of a plr tion of the British empire, he felt that this was nit a time when lfinisters c“uld aft!), propose? any reduction of . . the military force. It wi the du , y of Mincoters, and he h ,prd that they would not flinch from it, to employ a suf fic;ent force to enable the law to be carried into execution ill Ireland. Cap'ain BOLDERO suggested that a considerable sav ing might be effected by taking about 20,000 men front the dead weight, which at present amounted to 90,371 men, and sending them to g orison Malta, Gibraltar, New South Wal s, and the Cape of Good Hope. These men might be obtained at an expen.ie of about 20/. p•r man, which would be a saving of 12/. per man upon the present rate of payment. Mr. R. GORDON said, that the saving which his Right Hon. Friend had been able to effrct amounted to only 14 000/. It this were the only saving which could be made out of an expenditure of 4 388,0001.. he must conclude that he and other Hon. Members had been wast ing their time, during the last fifte,-n years, in endeavour. ing to force the Tory Administration to make reductions. Lord G. BENTINCK said that, taking into conside ration the events which had occurred at Bristol,Worcester. and elsewhere, and the present sttte of J imaica, there was no reason to blame Ministers for having made a reduction to the extent of only 14,000/. It would not have been a matter of surprise ; if they had presented an increased estimate. Colonel EVANS said the plan of employing part of t e dead weight in garrisons wool,], in the end, prove to he no saving. Mr. HUNT moved, as en amendment, that the number of men be reduced to 61,000, w , ich wee the amount of the army wl en a Tory Administraion left office. The amendment was negatived, and the original motion agreed to. Sir J. HOBHOUSE then moved that 3,170,709/. be granted for defraying the charge of the land forces for the ensuing year. Mr.HUNIE asked whether Government intended to get rid of the txpmnse of the recruiting department. Lord ALTHORP said that the subject was under con sideration. The vote was then agreed to. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to.cnorrox. On the tn , tion of Lord ALTIIONP, the Sugar Duties' Bill was read a third time. TITHES IN IRELAND. On the motion of Mr. STANLEY, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Irish Tithes. The 4th resolution being read by th. Chairman, Mr. LAMBERT decla - ;ed himself opposed to the reso lotion, and complained th it the conduct of landlords in general, and more especially of the Irish landlords was too frequently made a theme of reproach in that House. From his knowledge of the state of Ireland, he earnestly en treated his Majesty's 3linister not to persist in pressing any resolution having coercion for its object. The lion. Member then moved as an amendment, " That the sum advanced by his Majesty's Government for the relief of the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland, shall he raised, for the purpose of repayment. by such means as the legislature shall adopt fur the future support of the clergy in that part of the United Kingdom." M r . DAWSON was ready to support Government to the utmost in all the resolutions submitted to the House, with the exception of that which related to the extinction of tithes. Ile would take this course, because he believed that the Right lion. Gentleman by whom the resolutions had been introduced was sincerely, and in his heart, at tached to the established religion of the country. In off-r -ing a measure of relief, there should, however, be a pledge trona Government that the rights of the clergy were to be no way compromised in consequence of accepting it; and there should hkewime be an understanding, that the people who had resisted a just dein ind shou:d be obliged to pay by (he strong arm of the executive, backed by The Legis lature of the rouatry. Much calumny had !men thrown an the Irish Protestant Clergy, than whom he contended there could not be a more upright, charitable, or zealoua body of Christian ministers. The question on the present occasion was, whether tithes were to be got rid of, and the rights of the Protestant clergy sacrificed, to clamour or to romantic nations. He hoped that Government would put down the turbulence now springing up in Ireland, which would ruin all its institutions. CHARIIAN contended that tithes to the full amount here exacted in bei.md, or why should landlords p.iy them otten in kind ? If measures of coercion were re qiusite, and he (lid nor deny it, let them he resorted to ; nut first rem: dy the grievances which rendered them ne cessary. Tile difference between him and the R7ght Secretary for Ireldnd was only as to the mode 01 dealing with the evil. C. FERGUSON declared his intention of giving his vote in support .4 the proposition of Ministers. be. muse he considered it likely to be productive of benefit to Ireland,—a counriy whose interests he bad warmly at heart. He considered that there was a strong necessity for some prompt remedial me.tsure for the tuonstrou systi us of tithe collection which existed at present in Ire land. Government might take as a model for a better system the tithe system of Scotland, where the tithes had been valued and fixed by law, and where they were con sidered as a fund subject to the maintenance of the eergy. Mr. AICLLINS said I feel my-elf called upon to declare my cordial concurrence in the view taken by the two last resolutions by the Hon. Member for Wicklow, and many other lion. Members, during the progress of this debate. With respect to the resolution immediately before the House, I cannot but deem it exceedingly impolitic at the present moment, and likely to be productive of the worst consequences, becau'e I sin firmly convinced, now that the people of Ireland perceive that an alteration in the system 9, touch and so justly complained of is not only contemplated, but determined on, by his Majesty's Minis ters, they will readily and rejoicingly come forward, and without even the application of those coercive measures which are at present in force, pay up die artear as far as their means will admit. This assumption Omse best ac quainted with the real causes of the opposition to the pay ment of tithes in Ireland will readily support. Whence arose this opposition ? Was it from distress ? Was it from inabili - y on the part of the people to answer the demands made upon them ? No, Sir, it proceeded from an unanimous determination to bring about the abolish ment of an impost which was oppressive, not s• much from it, amount as its injustice.—(Hear. hear.) Having therefore a fair--I may say a certain—prospect of sue. cess,—knowing that much will and ought to depend on their compliance with the law 83 it at present stands—au long as that law shall exist, is it to be supposed that they will be such fools to their own interests, as, by a continued opposition to obstruct the good intentions of the Government, and dari.en the bight prospects that are dawning upon tnern? I cannot believe it. Under these circumst oices, therefore, I doubt not that any person who will view with an unprejudiced rye the real state of the case, will readily admit that compulsory measures, how ever justifiable and bentficial on other occasions, on this can have no other effect than fomenting and perpetuating that spirit of animosity and which at the present moment prevails to such an alarming extent in Ireland, and destroying the anticipated good effects of the promised boon by the measure ot impolitic and uncalled-for severity with which it is coupled.—(Heir, hear.) These, Sir, are toy =civet for opposing the further consideration of this resolution; and I feel assured I am supported in such opinions by all who have impartially considered the sub ject; and in conclusion, I will say, therefore, to his Ma j .sty's Ministers,—" Try the people of Ireland far a time. and if they do not prove themselves worthy of the trust, frie same power to apply f.r extraordinary measures th it exists at the present room-nt will he equally available in a future se-sion : you will then have reason and justice on your side, and cannot i❑ reason and justice be opposed ;" hut let me beseech his Majesty's Ministers to abandon for the present a resolution so uncalled for, and give a fai' trial before they conelemn.—(Hi-ar, hear.) Sir C. WETHERELL called the attention of the Com mittee, not to the manner in which these resolutions would' affect Ireland, but to the wanner in which they would affect England —a topic hitherto unnoticed by the different speakers in this debate. fie knew of no such law in England or Ireland as the patriarchal law laid down by many of the Hon. Members who had that night addressed them on the subject of tithes, and he hoped his Majesty's Government would not allow themselves to be led away by what those Hon. Gentlemen had so confi dently urged and asserted. By the terms of the proposed resolutions the Ministry were really abolishing tithes with out naiking any provision for a substitute ; for he contended th it commutation, or a rent charg was nor a substitute. If they pressed this plan, they would he following the ex ample pursued by James 1., with respect to Scorkad, arid which led to the abolition of the Scotch Bishops and the confiscation of the property of the Church. Tne Go vernment should have first proposed a resolution to the House , or adoption, to the e•ffeet that it was expedient to abolish the li lab and English Church, before they had pursued the cour•e they now proposed. After a few words from Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON, iu explanation, Mr. BAINBRIDGE regre.ted that he was not able at an earlier stage 14 the it bate to ffer his reasons for opposing them ; but as to those now under di.cu•sion, the Right Hun. Gentleman proposed tre nude of repayment fir the advanee made last night, and in so doing stated that he did not ask that new or extraor•tinary powers should be gi anted to the Attorney-General, but mere.y such a cut tailment of the forms of Court and of pleading as would render any sum• mary that which they would designate as justice, but which they would both agree in calling conviction ; in othrr words, the Right Hon. Gentleman did not shape his motion that power should be given to the Crown to break open the door of a house, but merely that the inhabitmt should be. pr. vent d from fastening his doer, or preventing intrusion. He would pass the question how far passive resistance was a breach of the law for even the prima facie report. the Grand Jury finding, admits that in the great m ,jority of parishes the resistance is of a mere passive na ture, in some, perhaps many, little more than in this more fortunate part of the Empire, every one of the numerous Sueiety of Friends thinks it his duty to oppose to this same impost of tithes, and the breach of the law being the same, if the Quakers were here as numerous as the Catho lics in Ireland, there would be the same necessity fur a law ; but. if a resistance merely passive, was such a breach of the law as to call for the grant of new and extraordinary powers to extend over a whole island, and which, from the remote districts where they are to be exercised, though the greatest care be used and the purest iiitenti.ms mani fested, must be liable to great abuse. He would pray the Committee to notice that these resolutions did not aim at preventing future evil. ; they proposed, that as one party was without its dues it should be relieved, and that the same party should be enabled, by means of the Attor racy General, to punish such individuals as it night please that party to point out. The Resolutions did not propose that re -payment shoulsl be levied on the parish ; they did not propose levying on all the defaulters ; they proposed that a selection should be made. And he would ask, who was to make it? Must not the clergyman produce his books? Must he not point out who had and who had not paid his dues? Must it not he from his knowledge of the habits and character of those under his pastoral charge ?—(Hear, hear.) And if he be not resident, 'oust it not be from the watement of his agent. or his tithe proctor that the election must be made. Was the clergyman, his acent, or the tithe proctor free from human failings and human weaknesses, and could they doubt that this power would not he used to revenge past injuries, and gratify past enmitie,? lie should leave to the land lords of Ireland to point out the consequences which must ensue if this resolution were carried into OE ct. Most Hon. Members had heard that great part of this distress of Ireland was attributed to want of capital —many were aware that it was a custom iu Ireland to leave in the tenants' hands an arrear of half•year's rent, too often part of the capital of his farm. Did they think that the I +rid lord would leave this to be seized by the clergyman? No. On the first rumour of an Attorney-Generai's process, he would distrain, and then the Attorney-General might bring the thousands of actions which this resceution enabled him. He might fill the gaols—he would leave misery and desolation, where he found poverty and wretch edness; but tl.e arrears of tithes and his costs he would not get, and each person selected would fancy himself un justly pointed out, and animosities deeper than those of religion would be engendered. His principal objection to the last resolution was its indefinite nature, and the time that must elapse before they could consider. The House had in former years gone a step further than ti+ey were now called upon, and no results came ; and now. with the questions it the Bank and the circulation, India, Its territories and patronage ; colonies, poor ; and tss enty others, is is impossible to consider it till a peat lapse of time, during which the Catholics are labouring under the same irritation, and the agitation of all classes of religion must increase. For those reasons he could not agree, and as respected the present resolution, he begged to say that never would he g ive his consent that the claim of one individual upon another should be redressed by means of the iinmen.e and irrevonsible power of the Attor ney. General. It was arraying subject against subject, but unjustly arming one with the power and irrespon sibility of the Crown—it revived that practice so pro. ductive of litigation and animosities, against which the .tatute of William, the gre it restorer of our liberties, was direct.d, which proved one subject, for his own benefit, to sue t;irough the law officer of the Crown another su'lect, it prevented the irr,sponsihdity of the Crown being as monied a shield by a subject. The clergyman and the farmer are the parties here, and he could nut imagine that that ,Jractice which our ancestors laind injurious in Englam', and against which trey legislated, would prove beneficial iv b,w teed iu Irel4nd. Sir E. SUGDEN o'•jected to this country being called upon to pay the tithes due by those in Ireland who had -ccasioned distress to the clergy of that country, by their oppositio❑ to the laws of `l:e !and, though be was willing , o relieve those who were distressed by such nppo•ition. True it was said that ti e opposition sv,s nothing more _ . than a passive resistance, as several Hon. Metitb;rm had thought fit to designate a confirmed opposition to the laws, but tic thought this passive resistance was even worse than teheliion itself ; and if the doctrines held north by th - Mem .er for Wexford, and other Hon. Gentlemen were to go forth, the same " passive resistance" would he soon found in this country to the payment of tents. He begged to remind the Hon. Members 1.1 the oath they had tak e n to maintain the settlement of the rights of the Church as by law established inviolate, and he ton en.4d that the res , lutions before the 11,u, went to the complete length of attackin, , those rights It such inroa , s were to be m ,de by Parliament as at present constituted, there would be nothing left for a Reformed Parliament to do. After a few words from Mr. LAMBERT in explanation, Mr. HUNT rose to move, "that the Chairman do report progress, and ask .eave to sit again." Mr. STANLEY put it to the House whether, after five nights' discussion on the whole question, it would not so fir accommodate the Government as to consent to the re maiming resolutions by which he would be enabled to bring in the 8111, when the whole question could again be fully debated, and discus.ed thr..ugh the various stages of that Bill. He himself had not, nor should be endeavour to thwart or impede the discussion of the subj ,, ct of which he was as determined in his support as Hon. Members 'premed to be in their opposition, and he would ask of the House to assist so far in the public business of the country, as to permit the resolutions to pass their present stage. Mr. HUNT said it was disgraceful to be discussing- so important a question at the present advanced hour of the night, and he should, even if unsupported by any Irish Member, persist in his motion. A long conversation on the subject of the adjournment of the consideration of the question then ensued, in which Mr. Leader, Lord Althorp, Mr. Wye., and Mr. M. O'Con nell, took part. At length Mr. STANLEY had sought the passing of the resolu tions men-1y as a matter of convenience to the House ; but seeing so strong a feeling in favour of the adjournment, he should not offer any fu. ther opposition to it. The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported pro gress, and obtained leave to sit again this day. The other Orde: a of the Day were then (ii.pcsed of, and the Howie adjourned at Hall-past Two o'clock. A Convocation will be held to-day, in which a petition to the House of Lords against the Reform Bill will be proposed from the Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the University of Oxford. By the desire of the Bishop of London, great part of the collections on the Fast day, at the places of worship at the West end of the town, are to be transmitted to Bethnal_ green, and the other impoverished parishes, LOPsDON, THURSDAY EVENING. MARCH 29, 1832. Considering the immense savings which Sir JAMES GRAHAM has effected upon the Navy Estimates, and the pretty fair curtailment of the Civil List by Lord A LTHORY, the public are not likely to be satisfied with the Army E,ti mates, brought forward last night by Sir J. C. HoßliousE. The country has expected more from an Ultra-Radical Secretary atiWar, than he is either willing or able to effect. Sir JOHN pleads " the late events in the West Indies and elsewhere" in justification of retaining a larger force by 8,000 men than that proposed by the Duke of WELLINGTON. " Elsewhere" is " a villainous phrase"—and we cannot deal with it, but we must observe that the Estimates were prepared long before the live events in the West Indies were heard of. Sir JOHN'S reductions upon the effective force amount to 80,3731., and on the non-effective force to 172,9541. The ta lents of Sir JoHN have always been beyond dispute, and they are sti ongly exemplified in the happy rapidity with which he has caught the official no-meaning generalities and diffusions of verbiage, hitherto so omnipotent upon Treasury Benches, and so repugnant to Whig and Radical Opposition Members. " Upon the whole, he thought the system which at pre sent prevailed was, considering the whole of the circumstances, the best calculated not only to preserve the efficiency of the force, but to effect the greatest possible economy." This was enough to hare evoked the admiring shade of CASTLE REAGH from Elysium, or " elsewhere ;" or to in spire Lord BEXLEY with renovated integrity of Finance. Sir H. PARNELL explained the rea,ons of his quitting office, and they are certainly honour able to him, though we could have wished that he had resigned at o»ce, rather then hesitate so long, finding himself opposed in his views of re trenchment. This most able of our financiers, and most honourable of our public characters, pro posed reduction to the• extent of 600,0001., " without diminishing the scale of forces kept up by the Duke of WELLINGTON. Sir HENRY proposed reductions in the Waggon Train, the Recruiting Service, the Mess Allowances (to the Aristocratic Corps, the best able to pay for their own dinners), the Riding establishments, the Horse Guards, the Comp trollers of Army Accounts, the Medical Board, and the Military College. Some of these de partments are notoriously mere jobs, and others are saturated with corruption. In the Ldhpu- Lion deductions of Sir J. C. HOBIIOUSE, w e are extremely sorry to see that he has deducted 5,5781. from the Compassionate Fund. When. ever our Rulers make deductions, it is alway s at the expense of the widow, the orpha», or the friendless underlings of the service. The rich cormorants enjoy impunity to the last. Sir H. PARNELL proposes the abolition of the office of the Comptrollers of Army Accounts. This we do not understand, for the examinations of accounts by the Comptrollers is effective, whereas that by the Audit Board is a mere farce—although rather an expensive one. The total amount paid to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, in con sideration of annuities to individuals, under 10 Geo. IV., c. 24, and up to sth January, 1832, is as follows : For Annuities for Life £'2o6Al7 it 0 For Annuities for Terms of Yen 9,V29 0 0 :2113,315 0 0 Annuities Granted for Life 78,16t 19 6 Ditto for Terms of Years 1,387 II 6 £79,552 1l 0 An account of all sums received and paid by the Commissioners of the National Debt, on account of Saving Banks and Friendly Societies in Great Britain and Ireland : TITHES.-IRELAND. LIST OF TH., OF 27, ON MR. RUTHVEN'. DAY Bainbridge, T. E.—Taunton Bellew, Sir P.—Louth County Brownlow, C.—Co of Armagh Callaghan, D.—Cork, City of Chapman, M.—Westmeath Co. Doyle, Sir J. M.—Carlow Co. buncombe, T. S.—Hertford French, A.—Roscommon Co. Gillon, W. D.—Selkirk, &c. Grattan, H.—Meath Ca. Grattan, J.—Co. of Wicklow Hunt, Henry—Freston Ing. strie, Visc.—Armagh Jephson, C. D. o.—Mallow Killeen, Lord—Co. of Meath SECOND DIVISION OF 11, MONEY TO Till Boldero, F. G.—Chippenham Banbridge, E. T.—Taunton Ouncombe, 'l'. S.—Hertford Gillon, W. D.—Selkirk, &c. Hunt, H.—Preston_ _ E 21IINORITY I AMENDMENT ON TtiES IGHT. Lambert, J. S.-Galway Co. Lambert, H.--Wexford Co. Leader, N. P.—Kilkenny Co. M'Namara, W. N.—CLare Co. OTerrall, R. M.—Co. of Kildare O'Connell, M. D.—Co. of Clare Power, R.—Waterford County Sheil, R. L—Co. of Louth Torrent, R.—Ashburton Walker, C. A.—Wexford Wallace, T.—Drogheda Wyse, T., jun.—Tipperary Co. TELLER. Rurnven, E. S.—Downpatrick AGAINST THE GRANT OF IRISH CLERGY. Ruthven, E. S.—Downpatriek. Shell, R. L.—Co. of I outh Sihthorpe, Col.—Lincoln Torrens, Colonel—Ashburton Wyse, 'l.—Tipperary O'Connell, M.—Co. of Clare TRICKS OP STOCKS THIS H.wk k 3 per Cent. Red 3 :ier Cent. Cons. x, per Cent. Oat() /Ted ! , 7ew;3iper tent 91 90ViN 3 per Cent A nn. 1726 per Cent. I 42ti Rank Long Ann toexpire . . Jan 5, ISt; Oct. It), 1559 Jan 5, IABO Jan. 5, 1860— ......... A pril 5, 1t440 !an. 5, 1+47, PRICKS OF FOREIO N PUNTS Austrian Bonds ....... Bvigisu Bonds Ditto Scrip par ;,,,U dig. Ditto Account ptr !.‘ dis. Brazilian Bonds 4554 Ditto Account Buenos Ayres Ponds— 204 20 Ditto Account Chilian Bonds Ditto Account Columbian Bonds Ditto Account Ditto Bonds, 1894 Danish Bonds 67 Ditto Account 67 Greek Bonds .... Ditto Bonds, !=r2. yq 7 9 Ditto Account Mexican Bonds, 5 per cent — Ditto Account fi per cent ... 3l Ni Ditto Account Neapolitan DAY AT OKI O'CLOCK. New 5 per Cent. India Stock Ditto Bonds 2 1 dia. South Sea Stock . Old Annuities New Ditto ............ 3 per Cent. Ann. 1751 -- Ex 11 prn. Ditto—. 9 11 pro. Ditto Small Ditto Commercial ......... 9pm. D:'to Advertised ...... pm. B•ank for Account 11n:lia for Account ,C,na April 11 .... 1 4 :1 1 4 % THIS HAY AT ONE 0 CLOCK Peruvian Bonds 10; Ditto Account Portuguese Bonds Ditto Account Regency Scrip Ditto Account ......3q dii. Prussian Bonds ....... ...... lot t A i Ditto Account Ditto Bonds, 1822 lOO Russian t ondt, Ditto Account 417 64 New Loan 92 Ditto Account ,Spanish Bonds, 1021 _13%100 Ditt.• Account ! Ditto Bonds, :.vhs French Rentes, sp. c. —f —c. 1 Exchange —f —c. 1 -- ft per cent. —f —c. Exchange —f —c. !Dutch Scrip 42J4 Ili% 2 Ditto Account k 2 1M . 2% French Scrip ['KICKS OF SHARES THIS DAT AT OSI O'CLOCK. Paid, Per Share. Anglo Mex. Min. Co. (iss. at 5/. rm.` XlOO 11 Brazilian imp. Min. Co. (les. at 5/. pin.) £2CI 37 Ditto St. John Del Rey Ditto Cocaes. 5 104 British Iron Mining Company £so 7% Columbian limning Co. (iss. at 51. pm.) 4714 314 English Mining Company 1214 22 22 lie,u del Monte minin g C....., — 14 Alliance Fire Insurance Comp lO 9 Protector i nsurance Comp. Canada Company . . l7 42 41% 42 General Steam Navigation Co. Provincial Bank nt Ireland ........ Van Dieman's Land Agricultural Co l2 5!. On the SI vt We Mare, will be published, price 3v. 6d., t he M EI•ROPOLITAN MAGAZINE, N.,. XII. Edited by THOMAS CAMPBELL. Esq., Author t.f '• The Pleasures ut Hope." Containing :—The Parliamentary Session : Toryism and Reform—Historical Scenes, by Miss Mitford—Claver ing's Auto-Biography, with Opinions, Characters, &c. of his Cotemporaries—Letter from a Beneficed Clergyman on the Tithes in eland—Some Terrible Lettsrs from Scotland, communicated by the Ettrick Shepherd—Bar Initiation : Sir Edward Sugden—The Waggoner, by the Author of " The Bracelets"—Remarkable Points con nected with the Epidemic Cholera—National Education in Irelind—Oswald the Blighted; a Tale of Ayrshire.— The Life of a Sailor—New Tory Guide : Ultra Popin jay, Esq. to his Sister Bridget—Sci• ntific Letters to a Lady of Qiiality—" I'm Forty two this very Day"—The Simpkin Papers : Cholera, and Self-educated Poetry-- The Bankruptcy Laws—Stanzas on Knowledge. With Reviews of Miss Kenible's nt w Play—Bryant's Poems, edited by Washington Irving—Webster on Cholera, and other new works ; Original Articles on the Drama, Fine Arts, Arc. &c Published by J. Cochrane and Co., 11, Waterloo-place, Pall Mall ; and sold by all Booksellers. rb e ?7, 2 - €4 , t 4 1, #." # *it }.7 t. it • • , 'Jo RECEIVED. Great Britain £19,947,372 16 6 Ireland 4,614,486 16 11 Total X21,861,859 13 5 PAID. Great Britain Ireland Total Amount of Interest received upon Stock by the Commissioners : Great Britain Ireland Total 44,738,131 10 _ Amount of interest paid by the Commissioners to Saving Banks and Friendly Societies : Great Britain £5,370,672 16 6 Ireland 3:33,7:,1 14 4 Total The Charges of Management in the last year are stated by the Commissioners at 2,900/. There is a practice into which the Police have again fallen, of dressing in plai❑ clothes, and merging the character of conservative officers of the peace into that of spies of a most odious description, if, indeed, the nature of spies can ad mit of any degrees of infamy. No body of men can be more useful than our corps of police, and the new system is excellent, but it is obvious that it requires to be watched b) the public with great jealousy. Some time ago, the practice of the policemen insinuating themselves among the people in plain clothes, in order to detect real or pretended offences, was strongly reprobrated by the Press, and Col. ROWAN and Mr. MAYNE laudably forbade such an abuse of duty. The poor, with whom the police have to deal, meet them at very unequal odds before judges and magistrates, as well as in the numerous cases which never come before any tribunal, and are never known to the public. It is essential, therefore, that policemen should be made to appear under the responsibility of their badge of office. English society would be more vile than that of Italy, or Austria, or than that of France under the old regime, if such a sys tem of espionage were to be tolerated as that of which we complain. It is the curse of our laws, to interfere, and with acrimony, in transac tions purely indifferent, and in which society has no concern. The police are innoculated with this evil spirit, and the disease should be checked upon its first symptoms. We are far from wishing to depreciate the talents of Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN. We acknowledge their power, and that they have been used, throughout a long life, with singular advantage to the country. In the commercial propositions, however, which he has so often submitted to Parliament, and which he reiterates to night, it is obvious that this public spi rited gentleman has not clear views of his sub ject. This he has himself confessed, in his avowal that one work upon Political Economy always puts his prior reading at fault, until the mind is in a state of chaos. Mr. WAITHMAN ought to know, that all commerce must flourish ( ce tenis paribus) in proportion as it is kft free to individual sagacity, stimulated by self-interest. If our trade were lessened, our prices too low, and our capital rn isemployed—if all the evils really exist which Mr. WAITHMAN imagines, they could be only aggravated by the course which he would wish our Government to pursue. Take off re strictions upon trade, and, above all, upon the corn trade, and every commercial, manufacturing, and agricultural difficulty will vanish. Brussels Papers, received this morning, ex hibit some symptoms of uneasiness, or, perhaps, rather of a disposition to be prepared for the worst, should h os tilities re-commence b etween placedthelln u tc p l o t n at a l dperßmealgniea,ni permanent war a r A fo n o t t w i g rp is to be , and other places are to be put into the best possible state of defence. All this is at least prudent : BKUSSELS, MARCH 24 .—VestertLy the King gave priv :te R uci,encem to M. de Mulenaere, Alinister for Fo reign Affaits ; Baron Stasbart, President of the Senate ; Sir A. Adair, Gen. Des l irsz, and several other persons. It is said that our ambassador at P,ris has completely failed, in hie applicati.ms fir a commercial Treaty with Francs. The French Journal Le Temps, mentions that King Leop-Id had inforrucd the French Charge d'Affaires of his intention to send to the King of Holland several valutn,le pictures heloning to him. The Courier Belye adds also on this subject—. effect that " We have been told that this piece of politenew, on the part of the King of th w e: to lgi t a h ni, :s o ( f .:f l t t \hi t e, r i e vl d litait ir hofA ill is - in w as_ii i - ll an answer to an ' , guilty polite communication , very lately made de T to hi K s it e ig ou L lm et u l:o .i t e l t o i :the part o f the King of Holland, through the medium of the Fieneh Legation at William (lid not feel any se : n in ti tp :n iam e p i n : ro o u rd n e d rs L t i o ,g a e c . cel , e r r l a ie te t t w h o e towanis Leopold, and that if in the course of the Diplo matic a t icn g expressingei a t t i i n i r oe i esfit:tewhretrn,ffi:ilacs given fortifications try had sum times spoken of the King of the B e l g i an . . 4 an en~•m), this could not be considered in any manner sau towards Le op ol d of Saxe Coburg. ePirtnall:;:reHelasi‘al(ti'efnigst(iti:ienrg to be provided with a larger quantity of ammunicion mid provisions. .... _ --- MARCH 25.—The Gov,rnment has just resolved, at dgt:Pir're:taci uttaaitoginnecindeilt:f°'tfu.(till'7e3tv'alt;reiri su:p(litliCinrct4:Ndnduir;ert:it,;(f)lFiGtcrhi:etnnitp:aner.'ilne:ix:uci'Fantl:fia(d7tr7niledeblre‘ly: which we send to that kingdom, styli as linens and cattle. The Motiteur contains two Royal Ordonances of the 15th of this ii.ornh, tine of them accepting the resignation of M. C. de Brouckere, with thanks for his services; and the other giving to Count Felix de Merode the signa:ttre of the papers concerning the War Department. ALtitell 26.—The Moniteur contains a Royal Ordi nance to the following effect:— " Leopold, King of the Belgians. Considering that the city of Antwerp is in a state of siege, and that the troops there are plactd on the war establishment, according to Article 261 of the code fur the army. By the advice of the Minister of War, we have ordained " Article 1. A permanent council of war shall be Esta blished in the city of Antwerp. " Article 2. Colonel lii.z Commandant of the prn— viace of Antwerp, is charged with the formation of the