The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-20 00:00:00

. _ corn- etent f or any Member to Move the re:commit ment o' the Bill. . Mr. SecrerarrYieoma explained. ~. Mr. KINNAIRD. said, he-thoughtit his duty to impose the measure altogether, as he thought the Bill a defeCtive support to a cru d e an d un di geste d system, and he should not do his duty to the great body of Volunteers if he did not rejeCt it. He Conceived that if the provisiOns of the Defence Atfi had been carried. into execution, that the whole Peopl e would h ave b een instruCted in the use of arms, whilst above all, the sources of supply for the regular army would. not have been chtiked up. Ministers had, however, chosen to adopt another System instead, 'which had a direa contrary efftoa, and which was in itself inefficient. Under the De fence Ad, the whole populatio n of the 'country would have been trained to arms, under experienced 'commissioned and non-commissioned Officers of the Line ; whilst under the Volunteer System, the men were commanded by officers of no experience. Nay, by the Bill, the only means of instruCtiOn for the Volunteer s was taken away, as the provi3ion•fo supplying non_commiasioned Officers fur that pur r pose was repealed. He objected to the whole mea sure, as entirely inefficient. t • • Sir IF. YOUNG repeated what' e had observed. upon former occasions, with respect to the distinc, tion which lie conceived ought to be made between those Volunteer s wh o hate come forward previous to the pelence Ad, and thin e who had been sulsse quently inrolled. He contended, th.it t h. pres e nt B 111, was a -Bill of distrust, with respect' to the Volunteers, as it went to inflia penalties, arrest, and imprisonment upon those who had patrio t ica and zealou s ly come forward in the detenc e of tliellyir - Country. 7be SECRETAA'Y at WAR denied that the Bill_ was a 'Bill of Distrust with respett to the VO2 lunteers. • As to the arrest and imprisonment men tioned by the Hon: Baronet, the latter was not risen ', tioned in the Bill, and' the former was only intro. clueed to preserve that which was so ne - cessar y in Voltinteer Corps, and was a t t h e sar h e • time only to continue whils t the Corps were under 'arm s . As to the distindion taken by the . Hon.. Ba- - ronet between two classes:of Volunteers, nobody deni e d that there was .a distinaLrOlbetween the Volunteers who had offered their services at dif-, ferent periods, ; but. to make that distinction in the exemptions would be highly invidious. objectionurged b the ,As to the y Hon. Gentle Min (Mr.,KlN ail6Ro) respeCtin g tile 'Drill Serjeants for Voittiteer Corps, the . fad was, tha t the expence was merely transferred from the respedive Parishes to Gover_ Mem. Wish respeti to what had been stared bithe lion. General (General TAIILFTON) ;IS to noorderly at Bristni,because no one Dragoon being to be futiod of the Volunteer Cavalry would becOme an orderly' Dragoon to carry a messag e , he shoteld only ob serve that the Hon. G,eneral. bad no, authority to require it, and that i t a,,, not be made of Volunteer Cavalry: exaaly the use to been said by I t -As to what had ''he don: G-4nersl relativ...- to the de_ -fteiency in the 2d inattolioo oft Wilts - Militia, it was jrwpossible there could be. any necessin - deficiency) as oust of 7 . ,coo 'Veltieters who had ) offered their 'services, oniy 6,000 had !teen accepted. General Tait es-rota exithined. , iv(M,ltir,:ttiefefLs.hv.Xt, e.i.mlViDERa. strenueusly. defended the t , which he contended was such as ought to iernove tvery'possibve, appreliensif;n from any attack of the Enemy. e possessed noW - - greater force than this Country ever befor e p eel, alai were in fad an Armed Nation... lin-tioelsisehsasd. been said of the Levy_en. sna -n e ;, n ot he ea-metaled, reliarice that there Was, no comparison but the that could be placed upon them and uPtin the V o ‘ l ueo leers, because; however zealous they might he, they would want the discipline and rstulatity which the V ounteers Would possess. This had' b een eiem. 'lifted i n Ireland, 'where the' Yeomanry con d efeated 'th e p e o p l e, who, it 'might be saidng on had , stantly i risen i n a Mass, It wits true that in , this c ontest, this Country, w as at a carrygrent- expence; but it was an expenne within theeountry, and eur 'treasures 'sverenot expended-in German on Foreign Aflie's. /Or.. he me ant to F OXsaid, th at W h en he came into the House, have taker, one sense of the House upon ahis subjeae but he was ioduced not to per ist io his intentio n _ for tWO reaso ns ; first, because there :Was a dete.rmined system of tnisrepr'ese' ntat . ion upon this subjed •; every. Gentleman that o -of thi s ,measure was represente ppo se d any part d as bei ng h ostile to ahe: whole . Volunt eer System. Though there was not the slightest ground:for such an, insinuationeyet lie did not oliuse to expose hithsell to such a misre. Prase:l4l6one t and therefore -he 'would not take. the sense of the, House upon, this motion. .ilis- other reason fors declining it was, that Ministers natiat be 6 : 3 , . se "stble of the imperfett statoof 'this Bill,• that lied, ntsptonsee tilt necessity of! its being recommit, more of the- tiine of th e • these nrounds: he would not take -up not his inten t i o lfouse at: preseot. It was Bil l aa nseif, bu n t to i m , oee the ea..commitmen t of 'the ) e hoped that some other Gentle_ man would d o • by the. s re . -it ' and he re-quested to be into:me 40 ir. :AKER_ islien would be the proper time to . The SPE A ICJ; , 4 ca? said th ti lea Motion might 3,c at.S C . .. . be made weett the said,., m ot i on was disposed of, Of at any tune befor e the Bill was engrossed. heolVlotion was I , t len agreed to. . MT.-YORKE immediately moved that the Amend rnents be read a second time. Mr. W..WYNNE then rose, and, as we under stood him, expressed his intention of moving. o re-. COmmit the Bill. The CHANCELLOR qf th e EXCHEQUER' t , t aPtle to,Or.ler, ;Ilia siiidtuit suc h a M ot i on could readin g of tot be made until the present M ot i on f or t h e S econd the Th e Amendme nts was got rid of. SPE AKER said, h e understood that . the: Right Hon. Seca eansay de r' it Y6I :E said he cortainly ve had his not ot waived • as soon as the other Motion was disposed of, he had, according to the usual form, made his present Motion. - ' Air.GR E N V man h ILLE said, t h e Ri g h t Hon. Gentle ad.certainly made the Motio n , but it w as d one h i rso rapid a niariner, and a f ter t h e other Motions !Lart Leen agreed to, .with a view of a Motion being ade for the .tecotrunitment o f t h e Bi ll; th at lie did not think that t',.: Melt I-ion, Gentle Man could with candour persist in his Motion. • Mr. YURKE said, he could not sit still while any imputation was throw n upon:his Conduft; in his public or private capacity. He had made the regular •Motion which it was his duty to make,. and he should certainly persist in it. Mr. WINDHAM said , he hoped the Right Hon; Gentleman would tit)t persist in his MotiOn, becaose it was certainty. made when the House were waiting for elle opinion of the Chair. upon the mode of ptcL 7 ceeding.._ • BRAGGEdenied that the House were wait ing for information from the Chair," bee`ause the SPEAKER had given the information which was re quired, to the House, before the Motion was made. Tile SPEAKER shortly explained the proceeding which had taken place, and said; 'that the Question now beforc the.tiothe was, that the AmeridMents be read a second time. Mr. W. WYNNE then proceeded, and argued at some length•against the Bill. Mr. FOX said that in opposing the, Motion for. the ...second reading of the Bill, he wished distinctly to be Understood, that lie did . not wish to throw out the - Bill; he merely wished to have it recommitted, in order that it might be' amended.- His principal reason for wishing it to be recommitted was, what might in4uce. some Gentlemen to oppose it altogether; viz. That if it is passed io its preseat form, it Would make the Ministers, and, what was worse, the Le gislature, appear contemptible ,in • the. eye's of this Country, and of Foreign Countries., The Volun teer System, whetter it was good'or whether it was bad, was admitted, on all hands, to fotirea conSider able part of the Defence of the Country ; and it was admicted, .even_ by Ministels, that the System was one Which required revision and alteration. Par liament met on the IS th of November ;'they had now reached the 19th' of *Match; and the'only Measure that Minister :had taken fOr the, Defence of .the Country, .was the Bill, before the tieuse— T tt 'We know," 'said Mr. Fox, " that:the Enemy have made ps•enarationsfur the Invasion of this Cenntry . e gi gantic bey*ond. all former preCeslent ; we were told by., the Secretary of State, that ~those menaces were immeltately to be carried into execution ; we, know that upon the issue of this contest depends tvery thing that , cao be dear to men ; and yet, after a Se'ssion of.alsove four months, the only Measure of Defence that Ministers have brought forward is ibis Bill. Gracious God, Sir, What is there in' tills Bill ? No steps have beeh taken to•recruit fhe Army', no means have been taken to improve or complete the "Nrmy of Reserve ; all, all has rested upon the 'Volunteers ; and this is the Bill Which Minister's have proposed for the completion of the Volunteer System. Let'any man, the roost blindly attacned-to this Bill, be asked, wjtat.is its chief merit ; and he will say it is, that it does that which it was at first professed thatit would do,. v iz. 'Nothing."' Mr.-Fox then continued ; he said he liked theVolunteerSystern, because he knew the.spirit, the zeal, and the courage of the men who composed that hotly' ; nit man could deny that the VOlunteer , would be highly useful its die defence of the Country, Oh •siCcount of their • readinesS, their spirit, and their numbers ; but .dial this flill assist them in any of these points ? Cer ; tainly not. After the time *which Ministers had taken to prepare the Bill, it was natural to suppose that at least they .would have considered the regu lations they meant- to . propose, hut was that the case ?, It now appeared, that in cast of any attempt upon IreVud, and that'* an Insurreetioe its that Cduntry should unfortunately be the result, all the Volunteers of this Country,might be called out,.and placed under Martial Law, and must_ continue Sol-1 diets to all intents and purposes while thilt Im,ur reaion lasted ; was 'ltch a thing ever in the con templation of the Volunteers ?, Btu it now seemed that this was to be given up, and certainly 1;1 tier late than never; but this was the sysietri Mirti ters had always pursued with the Volunteers therhad done , every, to damp, to check, to harass them.; ,as soon as they were beat from one trench by the Volunteers, they took post behind another.; and 'so they 'were heat out of trench after trench, and• still they seemed determined to die in the last dyke, This was the case with ,regard to the power of Resignation; upon this r subjeaa the CHAN C FLLOR of the EXCHEQUER had; as usual, no opi nion ; however, he asked the*ATTORNEY GENE RAL, who it appeared had a wrong opinion : it was however circulated through the Country by the . Ministers, who professed that they had at the same time an intention of bringing in a Bill to give the Volunteers'a power of Resignation, and they wisely waited till the dectsnon of the Court of king's Bench had rendered such a Bill unnecessary. . First of all it was intended that the Volunteers might re_ sign, then the AT+ORNET GENERAL was ui (*Mimi that they could not resign,then,thecort of King's. Benect determined lbws they could resign, then Stets bring in a Bill, professing to give' them the power to resign, .and then they insert a proviso* in this bill which in many cases win render it impossible for them to resign., arid he had no doobt it 'Would end in their giving up the prOvuo and 'saying they had a power to resign. It might be said that Ministers meant to give up these points, and that it might as well be done in the House as in the Committee ; but he prefetred going into the Committee again, because there were many other ObjedionableclauSes; one of them was the Clause Which took away- the exemptions" if a man did 'not attend a certain mim. her of days, but it professed to restore the matieto hi s e xem p t i ons if liiifterwards,a,teetsded his full nuns. ber of days e.bunhow was this - possible if the Corps had 'been out their fUll number of days ?' 'Was the Corps to be called out eight or ten days more, to giye this man an opportunity of making up his re_. gtilar number of days ? that could not be intended then it was mere deception to tell a man that it was in his power to recover his exemption. The Clause which related to contraets between masters and sera. vants was equally liable to objection,because it would be a very serious thing in the Country to take a servant away from a farmer for forty days but that which related to apprentices waystill worse. ft was an undoubted point, that thelabour of the apprentice belonged to the master, but this Bill took away the apprentice from his master . for 40 days. But it would be said that it ata gi c v o e, m , - ? . ptosati on was given, and to whom w Lcy the master. who had a right to the labour ? . . no; tc the apprentice, who Ivai .'secitiied: and peid for neg . e4ing his .master's - labour.., Vpan a the same principle he supposed that if scanal was to he cut through A - man's ground, they would give the compensation to those who Made the canal, and not to the 'man whose property was taker? -from him. Another oljedion which had been taken by an Hon. Friend or hiS, and which bad not been atiswertd was, that which rendered the men of any-. Corps liable to all Fines and SubseriptiOns• agreed totby the rriajJrizy. There ,were a great, Many other obj.tiotls, but it was unnecissary to repeat them ; he had'stated enotighto - shew the ne cessity of 'recommittit'ig this What .sittration wouldthey,standi in if this Bill were to pass in its .present form ? It would he this : that Parliament had now sat above four Montfis, at a titne'Velten this Country was threatenert with the most' formidable Invasion that eve: any . Country was", threatened with, and that tleynly,measnre . they had taken for the public defence *as, that the VOlunteers 'should Fie vtefciried 10 :day S' in the year mOre thatillefore, for this was in fad the only essential Clabseein-the Bill. What would the people thirk ? Would, they nOt'suppose, that the story of the Invasion was only, invented to put' theni on Their gtia'td; 'arid thae:Par-- liament did not seriously .belietie it, for they, could never suppose, that Parliament would have thrown ; away so much time about this Bill, it they really exPeeled rn revasion, without' taking one 'step to recruit the Army, or to- improve the Army!of Re. serve. The, Voin:;tt'ere s might lie iike - a Regplar, Force, in bravery he was sure they would, but then the Count!) , would haVe nothing eke, they would ; have no Levy en Masse to support thernEveri strong arm, eve:_, willing hears ite:lhe Country, that Nve;s not in a Volunteer Corps, would be com pletely useless in thehOurofdanger, an:t they would be in the ; si t d'esetihed by a Right Honourable Gentleman, exclaiming; when, the Enemy handed, '.laln desirous tO serve my Country, but i know not what to do l! - 1 The Volunteers ,were certainly . in a different situation, but he believed Of them had never fired - with ; it Might betsait,l7 . that when men were taught to pull. a trigger, it mat., tired not whether the piece was loaded or not.; but they must be, igtiorant'of 'human rat tire 'WhO argued in that manner,•• -because' every body' had seen the degree of trepidation manifested •by ignorant rd,tic3, who did not .vane courage, the, first time they fired off a loaded g, in. ntlerStood; that - in many- Counties they had not - received above t 4. or. rs-roundl of ammunition ; anti be instanced the County -of Wdts i earticular. He .was viii of tbdse wln i s did not titHk the danger so great as others ; but it certaiele was an Awful crisis; and he only begged the House to compere: the danger with which we were threatened, with this Biil, which Was all that Ministers had prepared to meet it.— It - was impossible to makc that comparison', and not to tremble. But," said Mr.. Fox, ""I (rem ble'. less,. because. Ido rely. upon the . Volunteers, because I do believe, that not the constant bickerings which Ministers have, had with., them, not their fighting with them point after point,, and. being beat our of trench after trench, not all, the conten tion and litigation which Ministers have had with Ahern, not all the 'damns and checks 'whieh had been' thrown upon them ; not the refusing their zealous offers of service, not the negled 'in fur nishing 'their), with ammunition ;-1.; do not trein ble so much, I say, because I do believe that even all these things cannot destroy the Spirit of the Country, which „will, I ani sure',, nor only rise superior to every effort I the Enemy, but I am ,even sanguine nnougli tobelieve (and I cannot reach a higher climax) that it will rise superior, to. the v. A eness, the incapacity, and the imbecility of the present Ministers." The' ATTORNEY GENERAL, .in answer to what fell froM YoX`, spoke at some length in defence of the cOndud Of Ministers icspeo. ing the Volunteers, and adVerted to the 'repeat ed and very (Wise discusSions Which had taken place upOft tl;ie subject the Bill had 'thee,n •twice re-oom-: milted, and, what. Gentlemen may . have - further to propose could, he thougfat, be very well considered in the present stage 'of the Bill. The Hon: Gen.: tleman (tad laid muChitresi upon the supposed rre laYs which had taken place, and the proposition he so:Warmly recommended; must induce still - further' delays. There 'Were one or two slight alterations to be made, which-he thoUght would remove a *so: lid objedion which Uri' been advanced, and that . evidently could be done in the present stage of the Bill. Pr. LAWRENCE argued at full length, in fa ; your of the Recommitment of the Bill, and adverted. to .some details therein, which be considered as ten ' tiering -the proceeding indispensible. ATIORNEY:OENRAL and Dr. LAWRENCE. spoke respedively in, explanation. • , Sir. ` 7. W Lira SLEY adverted to some points: which he thought rendered it necessary -to recom mit the Bill ; one :of. those points was, the consider ation that nearly one half, or between 15 and i 6,000 of the Volunteers of the Metropolis, were not bound to' go' beyond the precinds thereof, while the re, mainderwere liable 't'o be marched' to a Considerable distance. It was hisiintentiOn - to propose a general regulation, that i noeY,oitinteer should he e entitied to the exemptions specified in the Bill, except he agreed to march to any part of Great Britain in - ea:.e of In vastoo. . . . . 'Mr. - Alderman CONI3E spoke warmly in `praise cif the'spirit and patriotism of the• Civic teets, and adverted to the circumstance. that they, were not liable to .c,•mpuisory service,.in the like, manner that . the Ibliabitants : cf the Kingdom in. general- were.'• . PITTr. observed, altar tinder th,! present cir-, cumspnses, he slipuld, vote,.against tile re 7 commit. ! ting the Bill.' With respect" to the just exiietta. Lions of The Public from the•MeAsure, how fir it' conferred , those: fait'' benefits they 'lrv' ere!entitled he had ,already • stator . opinion, he :therefore . should'aqt trouble the House with a repetition of it. The measure under . c(insideration left many'deficieri cies. in the systoo ;there was not a proper'degree Of , encouragement held out with respect, to the import..) ant point of discipline ; neither were' there a sufii ; cient number of days allowed, for the purpose ; and even when they had aSsetni)led, the'means ofinstrtie-_ lion were not adequately afforded. At the smine time,: he : was .of -opinion., that : the, Bili, tyitli refetApce .to • e , Coll3isfiration of irf:niediater.•iialigtr;'Fatienti! , J).!-t n ;li e i a l f ea ture in the incincenitni it held tti:Corps come immediately forward • , pe rmarrrsii chlty; with a vieVi to,the bhprovenient taritt its holding otit'a bounty ;. but' even lte.feared, was. in-a , degree that would not be siArtcient -for the pur - thi`s, however, was, under the present - citecurr.' t•tances, • and as far - as it .Went, a valuable .and imparfailt. :consicleration j . and should Obe .an in.. ancement to the ficiuse to .pass, it. , without delay. He meant, with a reference. to -.the,erpeaatio.n of a speedy.lnvasioni against which. tbey.could 'not coo soon .be prepared. Thotigh:he could not avail la t i l erniug , the ..impetfeaions of%the Hill, yet con:.: tainitivthe - proVision he la. aliudal to,- it should. speedily be passed.. There was •another Clause in the Bill; which he:thoughtlikely to be of.beneliCial consequence; that which went to pievent •the arreati of:Commanding Ofticels while on .service.. With: respect xo the remaining :parts. of it was. little more than a regulation of c:mveniency, by -consolidating-iiito.one, what•beforeltati .been-wat tered into two or three different ads. He was im pressed with the conviaion_Of speedily plssinn• this, or that.no - thiug in-faEt would have hitherto beeri:dinie ;. it should be alcd upon as soon as pcs.. . . . . . sible. With,.respki..to thoproposal-of.recomaiittitt -1,! tlie•Bill, he saw no prosvcft o great or substantial imprOVement which .could ,be. derived from. such a 1! proceeding.. • In regard to the •st?lt . itEt of appren i! ticesi , the leave of absence.apd-'certain other ,points i on which some stress had irechlaid, he thought -the; l' Bill '-was ' , nut- li'ithle to any-leriouir objeellortivion - 1 thOse.heads. There were other ti-Tics upenkvhicli cii)jeeliona bad .been urged, - Ilut•if these cc;i1111 not bb effee l tuailp discussed upon cile,;Repart, cer.; tainly be a, reason .fir. recommitting; the Bill ;;'anet he felt , the importance of these pnints: as.inuch af any other-pe.r;O:vcoulcit do. kir. SHERI'? AN spoke at sorne.lengthupoh thei ,subjtt. His observations were chiefty7thrtAid to what had been (Lane -by.foriner Committees...up:on the Bill, whichliad.been so much' as to. render the ori ginal Bill aimost i nothing. The question wasi.Avle cher what -lay over .for 'discus:6oo could bifibettie discussed .in .4.ih Cotnu:ittee,or up ,m the Relic rt ? The idea that the Bill with the Amendments, as one print ed-whale, .never` was before a Counniiiee, was.cerrainly a reason. for a ,further .commitment.; rhe'opinion of the Gentleman .scemi!.l" indict againslt the recoMmitment 'of Mr.' PITT spoke shortly in-explanation. W:I/VD/f.A.M tin . , a short ,ipesell urged the pr,opriety:of mconsidering the Dill' in. a , Committee. :eonsidered,tll.2 present 2s the commencement of a permanent system of defence, the difficulty of pro. perly regulatiog . which,Would every day increase. Mr. BASTARD approved of the measures .adopt. ed by .Government at present, for-the defence of the Country ; in the County which he represented, there were abundance of armed men of every -d*ript ion, Volunteers, Militia, &c. and men were to be had at reasonable prices. He relied with confidence on the opinion of the , NolAe Commander' in Chief in ,Scolland„.that•ttiere were a sufficient number of men therein-for the defenee,of that Country ;-,and such was.the opinion of the Genet who commanded i n his distriCt with respekto the force in that quarter. He should certainly votelor the Bill. Mr.-G4E-NvILIA-ar-gued,tasome-length-- for the . recommitment, of the Bill. • 'A 'Short exp r lat'iatory conversation took place be. tween Mr. CALC:ICAF'T and the CHATICEttOp:*Of flee ExcittQuEß, respeaing the effect 'of a irditi'siriti intetided to he moved for by die former. A divi sion, took, place, wherilhere appeared for the imme, diate coosuteration - 173 Against it - - - Alajority. The Strangers were excluded for, some rime. On re-admission into the •Gigerf, - the House weft en. gaged, in discossirrg the.irmenthrients: IVRO7TES4EY, in pursuance of what he had stated, proposed the intiroducaion of Clanse in the - gill to the following effla ""that no inein_ ber of any corps of Yecinianir Ot Volunteers Orio;has been enrolled:subsequent 40 , thg_223.o >ley 18,03, shall be entitled to the exemptions wider, this z?kt, UnlesS he has engaged to march to any 'part of Great ( Biitain,for the detence-bithe Country in caSecifinva sioti,:or the appearance of an Enemy upori the coast." This propositioa gave. rise to a ( conversation,, rather of a desultory and irregular kind, of conside rable length, YORKE felt• it his 'duty to Opliase s it.as, however in substance, .by b u O ciil' means e ra : nS provision ri' .3 ; w An Hon. Bart Barnet, now absent, had proposed one nearly to a' 'similar efreLq, which had been very fully discussed, and the Fltise" ;had - de cided upon tt,i •Added to ,this, .he thought it would involve a .sericus breach of parliamentary, faith. He augured most favourably of the spirit and patriotism of all the VOlunie'cri, who would readily come ,for., ward in the event-of an amok. • . • P/TT,thought the, proyision just proposed was not in any degree similar to that moved in ; another' stage 'of 'the Bill by an Hon. Barbnet, - as the former was-a. Clause referring to the time of of. fer of service only, without any reference to the extent of the service offered. His sentiments of these two propositiOns were materially different : he believed the House had' never an idea 'of holding out encouragement to the extent of those in. the Bill, to those whose offers were for a limited set.- ; vice. He agreed with the Right Hon. Secretary, that there was'little doubt of the \eventual conduct of the Volunteers in case of an immediate alarm ; he thought they would all .manfully come forward with offers of general service. But in framing an forthe regulation of these points, a distindion should be madez—they should .go upon the actual state of-things; liy - thatmeans they, would in reality know what they had to proceed upon ; they would ,'have certainty in the .place Of conjedare, and the principle of exemptions would be rendered more ra. tional and distils t. He thought the Clause now proposed would be a considerable impr , vement stn the 'Bill, and as such it should have hi 3 support. P. CAREW, 'Lord . CASTI.t REACH, and Mr. TIERNEY, spoke against , the Clause. The leading, ground taken by these Gentlemen was,, the breach pt good faith whickweh an enactment would inVolve. .! Mr. STURGES BOURNS contended warmly for the