The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-12 00:00:00

!-(,) sit again. On the gouse resuming, the mittce were ordered to sit again to.rnorrow.— ,- j3urned at Eleven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, APRIL 11. MR. VANSITTART brought up an estimate of the sum which may be wanted for Foreign and Secret Services for the year 1804 4 which was ordered to be laid upon the Table. 'Sir9OHN NEWPORT postponed the Motion of which he had given notice for to-day, upon th-sub. jets of the Ilchester - Eleetion, until Friday next, on account, as we understood him, of the absence of the sitting Member for that Borough. Mr. FosTtkmoved for . several accounts, for the purpose of shoving the, operation of the Aft of Union.—Such as, That there be laid before the H"use an account of •all Flour, Corn, Gfain, Meal, Mkilt, &c. imported into and exported from Great Britain, together with the Bounties and Duties paid thereonfrorn the first of January iSoo to the first of january'rBo4, dis tinguishing each.specie,s and each year. . An Account of the average price, of Corn, Grain, &c..in England 'and Wales, per:quarter, and of Oat_ meal per boll, &c. from the 13th of March 1802, to the latest period the . same can be made up. An Account of the duty received on the Exports Of Linen front Irelatid to Great Britain, since the . commencement thereof, distinguishing the rate of duties, number of yards, together 'With the amount of duties imposed thereon,. &c. to the latest period the same can be mace up, 'distinguishing each,Year, &c.—Ordered.• ' Mr. WINDHAM said he had 3 Motion to make, to which he understood, there was no objedion, and he actordingly..moved. •,‘: That there. be laid before the Hue an AccOunt of the num ber of men 'raised in ea6ll - month in Great Bri tain and Ireland, since the 'commencement •of the Ad for alit purinse, and of the number - of .men Who; during"the seVeral periods have engaged for. general service, dtstinguishing under each head, as,. as it canbedone; the number of thost . wlio - have: n , :ered for general service, and .those who remain cin the balloted service, &c. meaning an Account of the FOfte . tirider . the Artily of'Reserve . ." , • This Account was ordered to be laid before the House.: iVlr.Secretary YolticE moved the Order . of the on Day the Bill ,for augmenting. the Militia of Ire.' land. The Order being read, he observed, that.bY an inadvertency in drawing the Bill, the sum,,to be voted was made to fall .wholly upon Ireland, 'which error he intended to be corrected in the Committee. He then moved, " That the SP AXE R do now leave the Chair." Colonel CRAWFORD observed, that this .Bill, h d so near a conneCtion with that which was the subjea of discussion last night, that he could not help alluding to that which. was not now the subject of motion.- He said he came down to . the House .with an intention of _voting for the Bill of last night, for introducing z 00000 Irish Militia into this Coun try upon an emergency, but that he, was deterred from doing so, by the reasons which Ministers had urged in its support, and the purposes for which they avowed it was intended ; as . he was,not pe,rfealy satisfied that they had clearly . explained their own meaning, and as he' was in favour of the until he had heard the Arguments of Ministers in support of it, he could not vote against the Bill, and therefore he went away without voting tipon it. But although he stood in that state of doubt, with regaid to that.. Bill, lie'hati,no hesitation whatever in giving, his, decided negative to the present one. He objeaed on -various accounts : it went to place, unnecessarily,, Officers in a state to ask favours, where they ought to have absolute command. He objetied aiso.to the very idea of increasing the Mi litia Force at all; lie - did not say that,we should have rip Militia Force; be th6ught lit should, to a given extent, form. One part Ode Force ; but he thought it should form noHpart. of our embodied Force. He had.however. no scruple in ilaying that op a ge neral .view. , :of. -the estate 'of •Ireland, It, would be indiscreet in-tis to have a large body of Troopi in Ireland composed-of Irishmen. He adverted to the' late Discontents that were manifested in that Coun try, arA.the,Rebellion that-followed., • The violence attending these-unhappyieVents, on both sides, .he apprehended to have laid the foundation of 'future violence; nor did he apprehend that .what had been done to conciliate the people of that Country to the . Government of this would haVe :that effett, for it did not appear to -him to.have that tendency. He apprehended .that the Union with Ireland- had not produced what. its best friends had :wished. He thought that the operation of the Union had, not been favourable to the . Irish People, and therefore he should be glad to know by what magic it was that the people of Ireland, were so completely con cLliated that it was wholly -improbable that another jnsprreetiod shddld arise. He took the:liberty to s 4. s'fiethin2.to tUs.cfrefi a long time ago. whets he was roughliTaridied fur it, and yet in less than three weeks after wards an insurrea ion broke out there, and. the. , city of ,Dublin. .was placed un. der - Martial LaW. Thii shewed what Govern. menrconceived of the future operations there. He thought it therefote unwise to rely at present on a ' large military forte in Ireland, for many of that forte must he men who had lost their relatives, or who had otherwise suffered in'the late Rebellion, and this measure was only to put -them in, a situation in which 'they might have to chuse between their duty and their affeuion. If this was nor absolutely necessary, it was cruel as well as impolitic; and if we could raise , any other force, we shOuld'not rake this.—Now , as to raising another _Force, he thought we could' do'. so, and in' a way much less liable .to objeaion.. He meant a Fencible - - POrce, and. he lecoutinended the granting to: the families of 'the . Fencibles similar provision, . with those row all Owed to the families. of- the Militia, and then he had pc. doubt -thtFineibles would as easily be raised as the It. was said that:Officers ~ couldnot be procured fonthe-Fen. — ' cible Regiments,.6,!4t he apprelte . oded•they could be auppliid out - of the present .i 6 Battalions of Serve, which he, 'stare4, to..be verpciefeaiY.i Mate as a Fince -..sear4ely Audj . as . an In vetting Pfficcr,.__would e pita fit . for 1-ie . then proceedecLto-notice the statement made by the Secretary of State on the . subject of the Military Force of the Empire, .for the purpose of shewing our effeetiye str e ngth within' the Empire. In the statement made by the SECRE TARY Of • STATE, he contended, there were ,many inaccuracies; for he'etook notes of that statement, at the time, and . foUnd it agreed. with most of the RepOrts of the Newspapers. Not that he assented to the .general accuracy of the Reports of Newspapeis of the Proceedings of Parliament ; on the contrary, „he had'often reason - to coinplain of their defeels, but ,thiS was chiefly applicable to the . reasoning of Honourable Members in Debate ; in the Report of matter of FigurtsrNewspaper re porti might pretty ;well be trusted. He then .entered:on the 'account which had been given_ of the Efffetive , Force of • the EmPite . , - when this subjea was opened generally , by the SECRETARY of STATE, and pointed out someitems in which he ap. prebended there were some considerable mistakes, the whole Of which has been already stated to the: Public. He concluded with _ l observing, that this measure appeared to him at hest very inadequate for the purpose for which it was iriteri'ded; 'besides many other objeftions to it, and therefore it had his nc. gative. Mr. SecretarlYOßKE observed, that what had hither to occurred in this Debate, was not extremely new:. He observied also, that the Hun. Member who had just spoken, had gone a good deal into the detail of the measure, into which he did not mean to follow him. It was true that the ge neral observations which bad been just made on the _ _ subjed of the State,of:lreland, might be said to ' be 'in soMe. measure cOnnefted-. with the Debate, because 'this me - iisure related to Ireland, yet he should not pursue the course which had been pointed out to him, b did 'not the pursuit di'not apr.ar to be useful. The Honourable Gentleman had said, that . the effeds of the Uniod,with Ireland.' had not been beneficial ; that they had not yet. been so bene ficial as,cOuld have been` wished, or as they- were hereafter to be, he was ready to allow, nor hat'. •.there yet been time for thaepUrpose : but .that the etTeds of:that Union had not been beneficial at all, was an assertion to which he did mot assent, and he left the rest to those Rekesentatives of Ireland he had the pleasure to see around him. As to'the mentation of the Irish Militia, it was A measure, the principle of which was - recognised 'in the last War, when the Irish Militia were - 25,d00 Rank and File—now they are only t8;000. As to .the objedien that the' Irish Militia was,. not a good de scription of Fame for that Oluntry, he could only say, that he did not agree with the Honourable Gentleman on that subject ; for when all the endea. yours were made by our Ft rei'gri and Domestic Enemies, to induce, the Irish Militia to betray their duty, they remained faithful,' 'and procured imMor ' tal honour. Another_ d4cription of Force, was =that of . the Fencibles, which :the Honourable Gen. m tlein had alluded to ;, - h'e did not_ agree with the Hon: Gentleman's opinion upOrikliat subject, because he thought that the Mode' now proposed, was much more speedy in its operation 'than that of raising Fencibles, not did he see how ()Meets could be pro,. cured as the Hon. Gentlentan had stated, for the Half-pay List was already exhausted in that respea; nor did he agree in the detscription of the' Hon. Gentleman of the . sixteen Battalions of Reserve. . He, thought. them much more effective than they had been stated, although he admitted there w,as a considerable- variety and inequality in them. They would all of them be fit for service, and the very worst of them for garrison duty ; and as to those invalids who perform that duty nirk, many of them, althobgh not, fit to face the Enemy in the field, might yet do completely the duty of the, Garrison of gibraltar or Malta ; and he would take 'the liberty of saying,. • that this country has, at this , moment, a greater force upon the whole than it ever whs possessed of at any other period.. So that he saw no danger in any one going into, the detail of that subjed, nor any inconvenience &pip it,.for this Em pire was never so, powerful as it is at this hour—thus far on' general topics, but on the ptticolars of the de..' tail into which the Hon. Qr .- tit 4niao eptered, 'and - his' reference to his : former, statement,. of the effective Force of the. Empire, he sho'ultfilecline ,to follow him, He felt no dispositibn to complim:•nt the ac. curacy of the Deports of I\levvspai;,'.s4; . .iftliey agreed with the statement made to.n,ight. by, the Hon. Gen cleman, neither was he aware Of any material error in his own statement upon this subjett on a former day. ,Having paid a compliment)tcrthe bravery of the English and Irish Troops, and alluded to what they: had lately accomplished in India by w•ay of specimen of what the enemy may expel, should they try us, he concluded wish warmly recommend ing thepresent measure ;-o the House. - Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON conceived the , present measure coupled with the Bill under discussion; on the preceding day, as, impolitic, be cause of all the parts of the United Empire,: Ire, land was the spot which required the largest .dis posable force, there being the greatest danger and the greatest cause for alarm. MC. WH ITSHEtr KETNE, thought- po. litic and advantageou, that a large plpporooo of the Irish Militia should be brought over here. Sir JOHN WROTTEgEY.arraigned, in strong terms, the general condua of -Ministers, by whose ignorance and imprnience, he said; the Country had been plunged into a War, without their taking any one step to bring that War to ' . .a . tertnination. It appeared that there were no mote. than 20,00 Regular Infantry in dint -Britain ; and could that number be Considered sufficient ?:.Fr.p . nt an insuf... ficiency of Troops we had lost one of Or Settlemeorp on the Coast of Africa, And- no one could tell thar Ceylon might not he also lost, whilst in India rein forcetnents.were require‘t. -The present Measure' he considered as an unfair burden upon which was in-fAt to furnish. to,ooo men for the . befence of this. Count ry. 'He apin adverted to the . condua of -the Wdr, observing Oar something :speedy, vigorous, and energetic pught to bedone,, Oticc the present system was sapping the very datigii.of our existence. We were at psevn . ! .. tti situation in whieb.we never were befCire; %." ! :th.,tv At -1 ies:anii 'with Ministers who are . ! ieipisect reign whilst the..syterii of bloqlsark. was wear to . v, cu t ot ir S:-.ips, and tiring,i;ut -Si`- 'nletti; . • He pressed upon ; - f,vlinisters 's)ine broad,tlnd comprelicniive systeini and t should not merely confine themselves to the' pro. viding measures of defence. - Sir W. ERSKINE observed . , that the Battaliona of ReServe whose want ;:if diicipline hid been ridiculed, were, in fall, perfefily efficient for. service He .did-not mean to- enter into the question, but when fie heard great and energetic .measures mentioned, he should like to hear from 'those Gentlemen who talked of them, 'some:specific measures proposed.'-- He did not believe that any measure coulnave beep . capable of obtaining a single man more for the Deo fence of the Country.; Sir JOHN NEWPORT said he:had voted for • the Bill discusse on he preceding day, Only upon the'supliciaftiOn that it was Intended to, - makethe ,Militia..9f ac ake r mo-Co.untries mutually transferable;, as he never could locik upon the Union as 'complete until. that reCipriCcity 'wes established' . between - the two Countries.. He had however read some Resold tiOns' of several Lord .Lieutenants -sand Colonels of Militia upon`this Subject with, considerable regret,- as theyomilirated-cliredly against that which lie coma sidered as necessary. :to complete-- the 'UniOn,•and without loOking forward, to which- he never would hart consented . to the previous Bills- Ifo•howevet, they were not to haye this- Militia,-they ought. to have as good a force in , return and he. never could think .of accepting' in its stead .aoportion - ofothe Army of Reserve, :after it had-been picked .and - those(' to make up second Battalions.for the tine,. ...ancl - avhen they could therefore have only the refuse. . He regretted that the earned:int erchange Of Mili tia between .the. two Countries was not' to take place, and should not only oppose-the present:mea sure, but should think himself, at liberty to oppose the previous Bill in its future, stages. General Objetied to the . falladious mode of argument made use of by those who 'stated , our disposable farce.to be less than it ottotat merely because theie Geritleinen thought it ought to be greater. 'They ought tO shew besides, how the ,Army could be increased ;it wo uld be., found, whenever an. inquiry was entered into.upon the sub. ..je6t,that Ministers had increased the disposable Force of the Country infinitely mare than it had ,been .'during a'corresponding period of the last War, and not only the disposable Force, but the whole Force ,of the Country. He admitted, that the Battalions of Reserveoivere not. equA to the other levies, but that was to be attributed to the superior arrange ments for seledion made by His: Royal Highness the Commander in Chief. The cia .was, that there was not , the means in the Country of raising a very large . disposable, Force, and a grand. magnificent . - plan for recruiting the Army must be the ruin of our rnanufaCtures. No - want of Troops was evinced in our distant, possessions;' in the West . Indies there was no deficiency as o to ohe cap ture of a Settlement on, the Coast, of: Africa, it was always the case at the commencement. of every War, 'those being deemed the 'least valuablo articles to look after., The Honourable Baronet had been unfortunate in alluding,to as evin cing a ,want of Troop's, as there our brilliant Vic tories refleaed the highest credit, andoonferred the . greatest glory upon the Officers and Men employed ; and it was aCtually a fart, that not above a fourth part of the British Army in India wasemployed in those rransaaions. There were between zi and 22,000 European Troops - in India, notobove 5000 'of which were engaged in, all our ViElories o It was asked, why, not raise Fencible Regiments? But they were coMposed of the same materials ay the NfillitiaO and where was the difference ? "He approved of the Bill, because there was at present a difficulty in procuring men,.,and they might get by this mea sure, to,otao men.foo general service. . Mr. F9X.said,, he should not detain the House long,- but he could not help adverting. to .the observa tions which had been , made upon the ,Resolt l .oons• of several Lord,_ Lieutenants' and Colonels of 'Militia ; respefling this subjed; Wa-s it impoaailaile that these Gentlemen should have constitutional4 . ielingsi Several of them were materially . connOted with Irelanda--and it- could not be for a mornent..soppoSed chat they were indifferent 'to its situation; but was it not possible that .the reciprocity 'of the Militia of the two 'Countries - was , contrary to the very prin. elides of the Union ? If such a, reciprocity was in 'tended, it was a great .and important question ; and let it be, brought fairly before the House, and not in - a surreptitious manner. He had always been a ' declared enemy to the Union, froth which .so many benefits had beentaiked of as resulting, but of which the only one that ltad ever been specified, was, that Ireland has got2rid of her .L.egialature. He would, ,howevero be candid in this respe6l, though he disapproved of. the measure. a The Union had not had a fair trial : he wished to G o d i t m i g h t have a fair trial; but he thought the idea of uniting a Country too large to be united, whilst local distance Was a continual impediment in the way of its being fairly re. 'presented, was an idea Which never - could be prac tically possible. He had , seen no reason since the Union to alter his opinion with respaa to that event, and how could they exile& any .Union of rnen.when they saw a Lord Chancellor of Ireland declare that the people of that Country could not be good• sub.... je4s without being false to their religion ; and when, from•the conduCt of Government, they were to learn that that Country could be• governed no other way than by force -? His Hon. Friend (General Maat-r,:. LAND) had argued,. that there was no difference be tween Fencibles and Militia, because they Were coma posed of 'the - same materialsthey were the same men it was true,• but might they not be turned to_ a• different use—one might, be sent out of Ireland, and •the other stay in.. He saw, however, what, led his Hon. Friend to this, who doubtless thought thaoif they could cajole the Irish Militia to come to Eng_ . land, they . might. Send them any where elie, it did not signify as to the .terms and if:they. could raise .Militiamen there for_four guineas it_was AsheAper, and better way—this seemed to be the opinion of his tiOn. Friend. As to 'the voluoteering it W aal a joke oif their Officers said tog them, will iro" or will you osot go, it was next-to ImpoSiible these men to refume e and what. was this but a 'tire preach .of their engagement ?' It had been said it, answer to the objediariOthat • thii measnre '7Pded to create a spirit.. of deliberation in. the n "V, that it was nothing more than , what took at a stoirm ; k n it mark -the difference with re. soc.dt to th e Militia , they corn..' h a d no right to L 'rand the aetvices of that body, but In other case the Commanding Officer had a -rig to command the'set,vices of the whole, and be oncj left - it to a part to irolunteer, to take the post of do ger.. - One reason for passing the Bill was urged to be, that it would liberate so much of our dispose.' able'FOrce ; .but when our disposable Force bore no ‘ proportiott to our limited :Force, he could not .corieeive the policy of adding to that which was ° I " ready too much, instead of to that which ,was too little. The nourable Gentleman (General MAll' LAND) had commented upon the argument of the 'Honourable 'Baronet (Sir. J O HNWitorTsst..EY ), with respe& to the. East Indies ; but the argumen t .had not been rightly considered. The brilliancy , our ViEtoties inindia no one disputed.. He should not now enter, int'O the question, but at the sa me :time he begged, leave - to enter his protest against adinitiitog it to be good policy, to destroy tt' c Mairratta Forces. The Hon. Baronet, howeiTC , in comparing dye" Force of the Country with wha t it ought liar 100keti at the East Indies In, be the probable drainof Troops fiom this Country' it had been mad tharoniy 5',000 men were engaged in our Viftories in India, but were not these to be replaced ? 'When he .'looked to the measure, ha could easily understand . why 'one Bill should au 10,000 men.. to our Force; but did it f oll° ., " that.they were to accept" the offers of servi c e ° f d "the Militia of Ireland ? He was told it would a" 10; 9 00 met k to our - dispdsabie Force ; if .so, -51 7 not raise to,ooo men without such a m east' re l ,If; however, these offers were to be accepted, °( ' ‘ '', l e ,they not. to:provide a substitute in IrelanJ bei ° l 4 they let go the Militia' He believed no one cc u i n . -state any advantage that could result from bring i "& a4ay ro;o6o men from Ireland wi:hout first pr 'vitling . a substitute for that Force. They w er ., - , told that' there were 33,000 regular - Troops ` 1 ; ,Ireland.; if so,' was it not an obvious way to take of part of that force. When he observed the manner ° bringing in and-supporting the present measil e i what could he suppose but that Ministers intended to' do that by stealth which they dared not propos e openly ? The reciprocity of the Militia was certai n 'f a.very important question ; it was root howeverr, . ;, part of the present Bill; let it however be broug il "forward openly, and as a question of importan c e He admitted that such a reciprocity might be estr , U th . e ni .d on if L u a l t ti t e h s e n s f am th e e -blished i but the time to have done so was at ti le , t E im u c ip h i e re w t a n s ig re h a t dy re arrangement, but if so, brin the question fairly be .fore the House.; 1 Iris Members have nnii t ! to attend, but-=let not the House be in doubt whr the/ .such- Militia was intended or n or. ll' Hon. Baronet (Sir WM. EusktistE) h a d sa id, W h y' did.not those Who found fault with the condua Ministers ; "propose some measures of energy w hich. they wished to be ad'opred ?—but to propose pla ns ' and. projects, only. belonged to those who were ta share in their execution ;- it was the duty of P a rli 2o ment, however, to find fault with the plans whic h gtouiargercae ttilas;. were proposed. Thek'fiad entered into a W a r at s.' time; for a cause, and - in a situation of Europe' which renders it difficultfor the greate st Genius of -the age' tasuggest a mode of p,rocuring a speedY honourable Peace. Ministers would no e l e e n procure' Peace, or ptepare for War, an d t v i a rt seemed to triumph that no one could sugg',4r:lffi.::ul for extricating -the - C . ouritry from those heY ties which .they themselves had create`' A C we re angry when it was suggested that the vice ought to be carried -on, with energy, bee' they' had diSplayed , no energy, but the energy , c y mischief,. He had never spoken of the de fic ' ct. in the l'alents of Ministers,. but hi could "t help remarking, that upon that point they ap peate ri feel very sore, something like Grildrig at the CO of Brobdignag, who, cons6ous of the littlenes 9 ° his stature, endeavoured, by every pos s ible man% to make up for it; and informed the King. that ! I ' Countrymen possessed the means -of destroVo% towns, and- causing a conflagration over globe; -but the King, after listening to Ililn;to, some time ; said,"" you -are- a cnntemptible wretch, and I do not-.wiiti to have a n y thing say to you." ex , Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY and Mr. i\•"*. plained.. - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEeriaEI4 said, that .in replying to the arguments of the 7,1 Gentleman, he should not f o ll o w him thr oug ` t ;s the topics into Which he h a d en t ere d, aw i o f the , cl i nently should' not occupy much of the dol e ob 1-,:tuse. It. had been contended that tile this j was to increase the disposable forc e i tn in. Country, and that this measure only Wentitl the crease f the- force that was n)t disposable ; first place he begged leave to observe, that b)' it ing over ten thousand of the Militia of Itelan'aig. would set at liberty a'considerable part of our dor potable force ; and zdly, . he wished to sta te ' this was only a part of the plan proposed 11 Y, 0 0. nisters•, because his Rt.: Hon. Friend has A l, a ble - tice of his intention of proposing a very con9oel" addition . to the Regnlar Force of the - Count r Y n . de was-by'no means the intention of Nliniste rs crease the Force in irela,nd, for the effet very Me;istlie would enable Griiternmeori if nec o 0 sary, to increase the Force in Ireland, with o n Regular TrciOps of the Line. , The Gent.,.. - for . the other , side had constant) attacked Mitli're',,,can not increasing the Regular Force, and in ' he ' - ore time they , had regularly opposed every i''',. l- 0 0- .brought 'forward for the Defence of the ‘-‘') crease try the Army of . 'Reserve the ', t eer of the Militia, the Defence , Bill, the Voll4cp. Bil)s, had all been opposed; .and now, when sure was ptopoied to increase otir disposable .1.-30, it met with a similar opposition. It had bee" s h i r g that since the commencement of the War, i-fi e ,:had 'been done to accelerate its concl usioo• r the duty of'Minitei's - on'the commencement ns fir N.V.t a 4, addopt the most .eff e ctual Jo in?, the security• of . the Cotintry, because bY so, they would Place the-Enemy in th is isiTu the}. Tthey abandoned the attempt at _lnv3s)-° n ' a p ub , -most be•covered with .shame,• after having,s,..,en. Jickly and ostentatiously announced their inirhe rr thin ;if they male the attempt and fail e " 11 'haVe all the. -disgrace of d efa l . 4 c d C. sttuattan of security the Ministers 113" Country ; but it hail bsen said, that ''" ,‘ i C pith geti , 1 '-^ ridliS to the British Arms had been ac ~1