The Sun. — London, England, 1804-02-09 00:00:00

a, ,en t r t orian whether' he uht himself' consistent if he atrempted-to take aw a y l from that As to recommendatio n at I Corp : the right -of- a he the distinCtion between 'elee { ion an dno mination, the same, hardly saw it, they were in substan ce to subm it to for neither meant any more t han the Lord Lieutenant the propr iety of his trans_ tbe names of mining to t h e Secretary °f-State Persons whom th e y wish ed be commanded to on th e 4 Y, but of course t h e crosym,, ve t wi ng h e r ig ht of advi ce of its Ministets, wou l d have judgi ng w h et h er such persons were fit to be Corn- Thander s or not; t h ere could be no doubt upon that subjea— Now in the Corp s t o which he ,had the honour to bel ong , the terms of their services happen for *ere such, that if any vacancy were to t 0 0 0 uywho -a ," Officer, he should apply to the Corps! felt him 'tneY should wish to fill it ; undoubtedly he e that but I . el f hound to do so—Why then what wa s l ? pr , "lLleetion—and where was the evil of a this not ;"e Lord Lieutenant had a right to say, I w ill _ "Ward this recommendation to the Secretary of - State -, do not t hink the p erson recommended -• t a for fo rward it, t h e Secretary of State might sa y th at 'ls fit f or the O ffi ce ;or if t h e L or d Lieutenant should it sho u ld not take place, and advise His Ma_ ;testy t o that effect}: then it would come back again to cho se anoth er , and they must go on . With their recomm en d at i ons until they hit upon somebody to whom neither the Lord Lieutenan t nor the Secretary of State so tha t no one could ever have a had- any objedio n commission in any Volunteer Corps w i t h out the approbation of the , and this was in itself, as it appeare d to hi m, treartitst • , for the men ought t o k now the cha . ittEter of tt e p on'eison und er whom they served , but the Right li. Gentleman adierted to Volunteer Corps under es tahliShments,like those of the last 'War, or if not those of the last War, of bl• h esta is Dents dif ferent from those under which -the present Volunteer Corps were formed. They had hitherto all enj o y e d the power, if not is of eleeli ng, of recommending their Office now he wanted to know, whether this , power was given to the Volunteer Corps by Law, or by connivance of the Crown ? If by Laws it must belong to then, generally; if by connivance, he should like to wheth er h e had found a n asthe Ri g h t H o d . Gentleman y mischi e f i n t h e pra ni ce ? Iful h the e had not, why should he now attempt to X. de Volunteers from that which they have • hitherto enjoyed without any inconvenience to the Public, and take from them that for which they have inch value, and without which, as he apprehended, not, only- would the Volunteers become less nume rous 'but also less efficient according-to theit num bet than they are now ? Where, he should like to ask, was the difference between the first choice and the second ? In the first instance, the lot fell upon those generally who were the most knotvn, who Were the most rerrkarkable for talents, or for some finalities or other that distinguished them, eirher for high station, or something that gave them a p r eference to others, and for which there were ge nerally very good' reasons for recommending. them to His Majesty ; and which reasonable to -suppose that the same motives aCtuated the Corps in the .first instance, would not also influence them in the second, and that they wonld • 'fill' ' Continue to . I.l[ Tacancies, as th . ey may happen in their Corps, with . he same t propriety as they made the first choice ? Be did comm!, that it the Right Hon. Geritleman thould ad on the that on Which he had spoken to-' night, he would be in an error which would- be fatal to the whole system of Volunteers of this Kingdom. That was his opinion and he though t it his d t n y to say so at once and to entreat Ministers to be cautious in what ' they 'do upon t hi s : for his own part, had he offered hisoccasion as a P r i vate i n services an - Voltintea x C orps, which kie ' should b e ready y to do at any time if he was not now in a situation to tominand a Corps, he owned . he should be very unWilling co serve under any Officer appointed by the Crown• to command him without his own conseht-.--The Right Hon. Gentleman had one through the whole of the history anthystem of the Volunteer service, in which he should not follOsv the Right Hon. Gen tleman, but should make a few observations on some Points in the Address of the Hon. Gentleman to the foists the previous to his motion. —He had said that Diut.ters finding they had no friendS on the Con. ni t ne s n t t,, it became us to look at home and make the uof ou r intern 1 h. • a _strengt , since we were at War. —This gust, sorted to beeatirse We f ound Volunteer service was re found ourselves at war without a Friend on the Continent t o ' have thought it would a ss i st t us.—He should ook about them, and to have seeeeremr e we shouldhave any friend on the Continent to a • ssist us before we entered into war ; this might have been a politic , course but Ministers adopted a contrary system, for the got first into the War, , an t afterwards in quired how it could be supp t d or e ; they then adopted the System of a Volunteer Service ; now he was ready to confess that he did not think that the System of Volunteer Service was the best either for ceconomy or for the purpose of making military efrorts, such as might have been made under a cliff. trent systemsste of policy, and at the same time brng al fi le energy_ of die People of pin e , {end ; abut while he said thii, he trusted that neither the ight said Gentleman or any other 'would try to bring !To n him the odium of a de sire to raise a clamour against the Volunteer System, nothing for the re wasing cou ld be more unj ust t h an such an imputa ion, not a man in the Cye beli eve d , who had exe r ted hi mse lf more than ountr he , had in support of the Volunteer System, when he found it was resorted to as the only means of our General 'Defence: but he'.was yet of opinion, that it was not the best System that could have been resorted to for the general defence of the Country - in dine of need; and here he could . not help accusing Ministers of wavering from day to d a y i n t h e i r system, which Proved, with ved, they had got i nto a path in which they had !net great difficulties and perplexities, and out Of which they were 'not yet quite e x tr i cate d . T hey at tempted to produce a G enera l Defence Aft, out of which arose the V o l unteer System all over the ountry. ,At that -time they found, that Three Hundred and Fifty Thousand' Men inrolled their for the Service of their Country. Here :homes m • sr ost beg to be understood, as not in the slighte -eo, wee wishing to depreciate those men, oil the con 4rar ' Y 2 00 man had s, higher opinion of the . o f YIN= . b i. -- "their motivet . Ohd principlesin -ems rushing forward it the defence of their Courotry, but yet he could not help thinking it was of essential importance to look back upon this matter, and to examine into the question of_ what we had really to trust to in this mass of eeo,ooo men—to see what was this great body who are now the grand mass of the Army of England ; h e believed t h at a great part of thii mass was such as could not be depended upon for effeetive strength—they had been too indiscrimi nately accepted by Government ; persons of all ages and of all descriptions, without regard to in firmity or any unfitness, among whom there were many who were not able to march, had been receive eel as Volunteers. There was certainly a greaten. thusiasm, and all descriptions rushed forward as Volunteers ; this did honour to the zeal of the Country undoubtedly, but it .must not be disguised at the same time that, among those who came for. ward there were many who were quite incompetent to carrying arms; in some instances not above one half of a whole Distria were aftually fit for effec tive service ; then came the order of Government to reduce their number to that of six times the amount of the Militia—This sudden measure had a serious and alarming effeft, for it damped the ardour of the Country very much, :ind it was a matter of considerable difficulty to bring men back again and to persuade them to inrol their names when they found that their friends, with whom they had asso ciated, were .not to be allowed to go with them into the field.—Now after all this, and time being given us by the Enemy, for he did not appear upon our Coast, although we all ex peded him, an explanation came forth from the Ministers, the spirit of the People revived, appeared again in its, wonted lustre. Now, what was the intention of Ministers at that time? Did they or not then intend to exempt the Volunteers from the Army of Reserve ? No, they did not ; and so lie told the Volunteers then raising, and which he had the honour to command ; and, to :heir immortal honour, every man entered as a V -lon leer, although he thought he would have beeeliable to the service of the Army of Reserve. He told them all there was not one of them who would have any exemptions by entering as a Volunteer, yet every one of them entered, notwithstanding that apprehension ; but what was the effeft of this ? they were afterwards exempted both from the Mill. tia and the At of Reserve; and what was the further effeCt ? why, that neither the Mili tia nor Army of Reserve could ever be pro. perly filled .up; _ it was utterly impossible that they should, for all the best a l ien are serving already in the Volunteers, as well as some of the most unfit ; and he knew it to be a faa, that there were not men who could be drawn to serve in the Militia to the number intended to be raised of that body ; the same was to be said with regard to the Army of Reserve. How then were we to recruit our Army at all ? he had no difficulty in saying, that in the present state of things that was impossible. Those who would have constituted the Army of Reserve and Militia, were now filling up the ranks of the Volunteers. Such was the eft - ea of the Volunteer System ; and as it was so, the best course now to be taken was that of making up the Volunteer Sys tem as beneficial, and at the same time as palatable to the Public as we could, and to bring them to as good a state of discipline as was applicable to a force of that nature.—Ministers then had recourse to the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor Ge neral, in order to get over another difficulty which they felt themselves under, and these Learned Gen. tlemen gave it as their opinion that tee Volunteers were exempted from the Army of Reserve ; after which came the question whether a Volunteer could resign or not ? Mr. WHITBREAD said, he always thought that a Volunteer could resign whenever he pleased, and return his arms, if he had any, (fOr many for a long while had not) but while a man re mained in the' Corps there were means of rendering him liable -to pay fines for his non-attendance, ,and which fines were levied upon his goods if he had any; but here again the Law stopt, for if he had no goods, there was no way of imposing any other penalty on the Volunteer, so that a man might walk out' of the service when he pleased.—But the Right Hon. Gentleman, Mr, WH !TB READ said, had, to Isis great surprize and joy, Sieclated that if the Court of King's Bench had not decided the. Law to be that a Volunteer could resign as they had done, he should have proposed to make the.law so; now he confessed that struck him extremely, for: it was to be remembered that the Right Honourable Gentle man had sent to ail the Lieutenants of the Counties, who in their turn again sent to all the Magistrates, as the Exposition of the Law, the opinion of the two Law Officers of the Crown, the Attorney and Solicitor General, and upon the strength of this Magistrates had aeted all over the Country, which opinion was, that a Volunteer could not resign, and which opinion turned out not to be Law ; and with out intending the least disrespeCt for the two Learned Gentlemen who gave their Opinion, this erroneous Opinion, for so he was now bound to call it, since a Court of Law had pronounced it to be so, and without intending any thing clisrespeEtful of that Opinion, he must be allowed to say, that it was an Opinion which led the Magistrates into ' error, for they had afted upon that Opinion as if it was a sound exposition of the Law of the Land.— It would have grieved him to find that this Opinion was consonant to the Law of the Land, but he was very much surprised, though he greatly rejoiced at what he heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman to. night upon that subjea, and he thought he and the Public at large had a right to complain of the Right Hon. Gentleman, for finding this'Opinion given by these Learned Gentlemen, which now appeared not' to he law, to be, that a Volunteer could not resign ; he caused it to be most industriously circulated and published all over the Country, by which the Public had for a while been misled, and this was the more remarkable, since it was an Opie'a n promulgating that as law which the Right Hon. Gentleman had this night said, he did not wish to continue to be the law, for he had expressly declared, that if the law had been found to be so, he should have propoSed to alter it, and to make it what it now is. H a vi ng said this, he must add, that he felt extremely anxi ous that justice should be done to the Volunteer Corps in every patticular—Witbregard to that part of the Volutitetr System which was called th e met,. nomical part of it h ..they:wele mistaken WhothoUght it so to the Public---Who are. the Public ? The in_ dividuals of whom it is composed : Now it was a gross mistake to suppose, that a system, by which nu money was taken out of the Public Purse in form, did not really cause a .great expence to the Public. —The expence to the Public was the-same in what ever way it was defrayed, if it - cattle oat of — the pockets—of the individuals of whom the Public was composed ; for what difference was there be tween paying soh into a Subscription Chest to sup port a Volunteer Corps, and paying a Tax to that amount into the Exchequer ? And in this respeft he knew that this system was extremely expensive to the Public, for at a very moderate computation it was upwards of 41. per man. AnOther abjection to - the system was, that, from their form and condi tion, -the Volunteer Corps were continually subjEft to, and in daily danger of being dissolved : not that the individuals of whom the Volunteer Corps were composed wanted spirit, for if dissolved in one street, he was confident they would enter again in the next ; but they• were subject every hour to the danger of dissolution. Suppose they were to say that they did not like their Commander, and that they wanted to chose another, and they were not to be allowed that privilege, and that they should not have the satisfaction even of recommending an other Officer, as the Right ilon. Gentleman told them they should not, and they were to say they were 'no longer Volunteers ? What was the remes dy ? A very short one, certainly ; they must be dismissed, but if they amounted to rOOO men-- this would be a prodigious loss, at least for a while, and this was a matter which he wished to be at tended to by His Majesty's Ministers. There was another reason why he was apprehensive that they might be dissolved, and that was, want of Funds to carry on the System, and this was a point to which Government must look into with great attention, and if they negleded ir,he was confident it would be im possible to carry on this system long. There was no Corps that he had known any thing of, that was not in some degree or other in.debt. Many .Corps had endeavoured to excel others in their chess and ornaments, which he did not blame, it was natural enough when men felt the ardotir of a military spirit, but it was attended with an expence that could not be supported unless the funds of almost every Corps in the Kingdom were increased—Men must he clothed from head 'to foot, and after a great coat and the other articles of dress were provided, it would not, on the most moderate computation, as he had said already, amount to less than 41. per man, which would be a tremendous sum of money in the whole: Now what was the remedy ?—A second subscrip tion, that would fall very heavy on many persons to whom the present . Taxes arc already a'great burthen. There was another point to be at tented to : At pre sent it was the rule to allow no pay to any Officer Who instructed the men, however well he may have done it, or may have had- the unqualified praise of the Inspefting Officer, unless such person shall have been in the Army ; that was a deieft which oughttd be remedied, for men could not be txpeeted to give their time and labour for nothing •but mere praise ; men in middling circumstances could not afford it. It wasalso worth while for Ministers to remember that the pay of these Officers was only for 20 days, and now they were to be out 24 days, the additional four days ought to be paid for, or we should find many persons remiss in their duty. He took the liberty of pointing out these things,. and of observing, that Ministers had gone on from one error to another, and they had now placed the Country in -st tuation in which it had no choice, but must trust its main defence to the Volunteer Force, and therefore it became Ministers to render that system as little objeftionable as possible. He thought that the aug mentation of the Militia was carried on a little too much. He thought he was confirmed in that opi nion by the conduft of Ministers, by the enormous expence which was occasioned in drawing men from the Militia afterwards by bounty into the regular ser vice ; and also by the expence of raising the Army of Reserve, and at last being obliged to have recourse to the Volunteer System, which was much more ex pensive than either. It was for the Ministers of the Country to consider the best means for providing for its general defence and safety ; it was for Members of Parliament to speak their sentiments upon such means, and to shew to the House • the imperfeftion of such means, in order to bring them tis the best state they were capable of, and that was a liberty which he had taken to himself; it was not for him to point out what was better, itwas his duty as -a Member of Parliament to shew to the House what appeared to him to be erroneous in the conduct of Ministers, and which they now ought to rectify ; and he should only add, that he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would consider of allowing Volunteers•the• pradice of recommending their Officers to the Crown ; would consider also of the expence of providing Clothing for the Volunteers, and the Pay he had alluded to— and consider of the difficulty of procuring the at tendance of Officers who did not receive pay for the additional four days now about to be proposed, without some allowance ; and here, for the present, he should leave the subjeft, recommending the whole of it to the most serious consideration of His Ma jesty's Government. Mr. WINDHAIII said, that notwithstanding the rule laid down by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Secretary Yousa) had been broke through, and they had got into a discussion with respeft to particular Corps, he yet agreed with the Right Hon. Gentle man, that the discussion ought to be postponed to other stages. Several topics had been urged that required to be answered, but he- should agree to the propriety of adopting the delay of discussion men. cloned by the Right Iron. Gentleman, and•which had been brought forward like the Laws of Philoso- • phy. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Secretary YORKE) in stating his proposed measure, had been not a little puzzled, as he had three enemies to COM. bat,---the opinion of His Majesty's Law Officers, the decision of the Court of King's Bench, and his own Aft of Parliament, which was something like a running fight mentioned in a late dispatch from one of our. Officers. He could not help how ever giving vent to his surprize, not at what the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed,- but at what he had not proposed, arid he would ask' whether what the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed was at all adecluate to the public exigencies ? Would such scraps and remnants as the Right Hon, Gar. demo had brought forward satisfy the public . ex: pedation, which had been led to look up to some:. thing solid and substantial ? Let them look to the situation of the Country—was it to be amended by a mere explanatory Atl ? Unless some system were established nothing could be done. The Volunteer System was an edifice in which many parts were sb loose, and of such unsuitable materials, that nobody could undertake to say, that in the course of a few months it might not be annihilated. He wished that the materials might be dispersed, capable how.. ever of being united in another form, in the course of a short time, when a strong and proper building might be erected. He, hoped Ministers would pro fit by a discussion of the question, which he sh ou ld• at present leave for a future opportunity. Colonel EY RE expressed great satisUlion at the Speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Secre tary YORKE), as it clearly pointed our the nature of VOlunteer Engagements. If there had been any apparent abatement of zeal on the part of the Vo lunteers, it arose from the new and unexpeded in terpretation given to the Ads of Parliament relating to this subjet* The Volunteer System iorns strength of the Government and the security of the Country : it culled forth the vigour of the People, and concentrated their energies in a channel the most advantageous to themselves. He did not think like the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WIND_ HAM), that it was a crazy edifice, but on the con trary, that it was the must suitable fortress for our defence arid protedion. Sir JOHN \VROTTE3LEY thought that some pro. visions ought to be made with respetft to those Counties where in some Districts a great many Vo lunteers had come forward, and in others none at all. Mr. Secretary YORKE said, that with reopen._ to what had been urged by the Hon. Baronet, the observation applied to those detail's which must ne cessarily have been left to the Lords Lieutenants,, as to them the distribution of the Volunteer Force in their respeCtive Counties was entrusted. As to the offer mentioned by the Hon. Gent. (Mr. WHIT. BREAD) he was not aware that any such offer had been accepted. It might have happened that the Lord Lieutenant did not transmit the pffer as he re. ceived it, but merely an offer of service. Since he had had the honour of holding the Office in which he was then placed, no offer of Voluntary service had been accepted containing a proposal for the continued Eleaion of Officers, it teeing the constant intention of Government not to admit of such continued Elm. tions. It had been asked, where was the difference between an Association of Individuals offering to form a Volunteer Corps, and a Corps already formed ? the distinction appeared ta him to be obvious. In the one case they were previously not known as a Military Body, but afterwards it was utterly impossible to allow of the EleCtion of Officers. Suppose a Voluna teer Corps was called out into anual service, • to at with Regulars or Militia, and suppose an Officer was killed, was such a Corps to assemble after the action was over, for the purpose of elening another? —it was utterly impossible to allow it. It was said that the Eledioe of Officers by a Volunteer Corps amounted merely to a recommendation ; but the Lord Lieutenant:. might recommend wh: , :n he pleaSed„. he could not, of 4:curse, leo° e; until notified to him by the Commanding Officer ; and it had been the practice for the Coomhindeta to recommend some one•to fill up the vacancy; in which case it was presumed a person would be recommend ed who was most agreeable to the Corps. • He re_ peated, however, that if any Corps persisted in claiming the right ,of electing Officers, he shwalti feel it to be his duty to advise His Majesty to'dis_ continue the services of such Carps. . With respect to the kind of aisteneiehree, it .was to be observed, that twenty-four days attendance was not cacaeled, but it was merely made a condition for the purpose of errtitling the Party to an exemption from serving in the Militia and Army of Reserve. Mr. WHITBREAD in explanation, said, that the power of eleding Officers hereafter was contain, ed in the precise words of the offer of Service of the Corps to which he had alluded. He hoiaed the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Secretary Yoaxs) would not hastily pass a harsh sentence upon a part of the Volunteers of the Country. The, l a ondon Light Horse Volunteers had been alluded to ; be wished to know whether that Corps had a right to elect their Officers, and whether, if so, all whet Corps had not the same right ? Mr. Secretary YORKE said, he was not exactly certain with respeft to the Light Horse Volunteers, but he believed that Corps had been originally estaa blished upon . the principle of such eledion. It was an old Corps and was established upon : princi. pies peculiar to itself. It was absolutely necessary. however to destroy the claim to such an eledion of Officers set up by Corps of a more recent date.. Mr: STCIRG - ES said, that it was not merely the Light Horse Volunteers who had exercis. ed the right 'of eleaing their Officers, but also several other Corps, amongst which was that re spedable Corps the Bloomsbury and Inns of Court Association, to which he had formerly the honour to belong. He could not help expressing his astonish ment, in common with the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. WIN OnAm), not at what had fallen: from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr, Secretary Yolutr), but at what .had not. The attention of the House and the Country had been, in a marked and peculiar manner, called to the procee'dings of the House that day, - and the only measure proposed had been,that there should be twebty-fourdays attendance instead of five, and that there shOuld, be a notifica.. don of resignation. • wished that a Rill for the purpose of remedying the -defeds of 'the Volunteer System had originated in a Coihrnittee Of the whole House, as in that case an efficient Plan might have: been proposed in the first instance,_ instead of being subsequently brought forward in detached parts.... The House had held out a sort of bounty to the Volunteers, by enaCting that five days attendance should be sufficient to entitle them to exemption, and now four-and-tVventy days were to be substi. thted. 'He wished the system' to be pro'bed to the bottom, in order that the House might not commit another breach of faith ' , and tell the Volunteers to go to the right abour', after - they- , had most patrioti. tally exerted , theniselves for the defence of their. Country. • The ATTORNEY GENERAL said he could no: