The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-17 00:00:00

' , option, as that which marked out the Borough of Aylesbury, as a fit example to deter other Boroughs from acting with such baseness, and prostituting to bribery the constitutional trust reposed in the Elec. tors : he therefore supported the Bill. Mr. HURST fully agreed in the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet, as to the justice and necessity of exemplary punishment to the persons actually guilty of such foal and flagitious corruption as that which has been stated, and to this the law of the land was already competent to the full ex tent necessary, so far as utterly disfranchising, and rattlOting, by heavy penalties, the persons who should be proved guilty thereof, and against la hom prosecutions were at this moment carrying on.— Bot he never could agree to punish the innocent iodiscriminattly with the guilty, in subversion to the mild, just, and constitutional spirit of our laws, as would be the inevitable effed of a Bill that must eventually disfranchise the innocent, honourable, honest, and unoffending Eiedors of Aylesbury and Their postetity, merely fur the crimes of the guilty. Lord OSSULSTON, whatever might be his zentiments of the Bill, understood it was the in tention to throw open. parishes in the hundred sur rounding the Borough of Aylesbury, which, in his romd, so far from remedying, would rather promote the evil complained of, as it would let in the tights of Eleaion to a description of persons without pro perty, and certainly more open to the temptation of bribery than those already charged with it; beside, he did not think that Aylesbury was so very singular and insulated a case, as to call for peculiar distianchise. mew, for a 'species .of corruption of which instances ware, unhappily, but too numerous elsewhere. If the Noble Lord would bting forward any general measure for the more effedual prevention of bribery and corruption, - and specifically declare any degree of such delinquency which should hereafter subject a bdi-piigh to disfranchisement, he should have no ob. jeilion to support it. • GEORGE CORNEWALL spoke in favour of the Bill, and argued that the portion of corrupt . eti -.totes appeared lo - be as 271 to 37, and said he should divide the House against the Amendment. Sir ROBERT BUXTON supported the Bill, and Mr. P. MOORE spoke against it. Me con tended that the law was alteady sufficiently strong to punish the delinquency of the parties, against whom the charge could be established, and against whom adions were this moment in suit for penalties ,to the amount of a million sterling. Mr. FRANC Is spoke against the Bill, and Mr. CRENEELL 111 support of it. The MASTER of the ROLLS, at considerable length, and with much ability, opposed the Bill. He was totally against the principle of punishing the innocent for the sake of the guilty. It would be saying a strong thing indeed, to alledge that one man may forfeit a franchise for the at of another ; but it would be say iog a touch stronger to al ledge, _that a majority shall forfeit for the fault of a minority. The preamble of this Bill did not even state the proportion of the Aylesbury Elec. tors, whether three.fourths, one,half, or one-third, who had incurred that species of criminality for which it was the purpose of this Bill to disfranchise the whole. On this point the pre .amble left the 'louse to its conjectures ; and they might either infer, that the guilt attached up. three_fourths of the Electors, or a few in. The law already was sufficiently strong to punish the guilty parties, by heavy fines and oiler disfranchisement. But in his mind, it would be an alarming notice _indeed to the Eleaors of every Borough in the kingdom that, for the delinquency of a few individuals, who should secret ly or openly submit to bribery or corruption, the on ifending m ijority must be deprived of their fronehises under an Af of this sort. This would iriteed be, to put it into the hands of the. Reformers out of doors to effea . their own purposes, and by mere trick and management, procure the disfran chisement of eve?) , .lorcr.)gtl in the kingdom ; and thus, as it were, held out a premium to bribery and corruption. The SECRETARY at WAR spoke in support of the Bill, and said the preamble rniglit easily be fitted io the shape the Bill would bear when it came out of the Committee. Mr. Serjeaet BEST supported the arguments of the MASI ER of the ROLLS, and added, the present was the mast improper season at which such a Bill • could be introduced, as, if it were possible for the House to adopt it, its direel tendency would be to prejudge Adions now pending to the amount of a • million of money, and involve the utter ruin of many families. sir WILLIAM YOUNG supported the Bill, up. on the principles of the GRENV !IL E Ads, which `,gave to Committees emanating from that House, the authority to propose and recommend measures 46r the punishment and future prevention ofsuch fla. - - grant instances of corruption, as those which justi. fled the introduaiOn of the measure before them. Mr. Serjeatit BEST rxl lained. Mr. FOX. in a few words, expressed his opi. nion that there was no fair necessity for the Bill. He could see no reason why the case of the Borough • of Aylesbury should be taken out of the general rii!e, and not left to the operation of the existing • law s to punish bribery and corruption. • Mr. W. SMITH gave his concurrence to the Bill, and contradided the statement of the Learned Ser. *ant, that the penalties sued for amounted to any thing like a million, as he had represented. The House divided on the Marquis of Tvren. 'Eon's Arnendmen Against it 69 For it 48 Majority - 21 On the Motion of Sir ROBERT BUXTON, it wag ordered that Counsel should be heard at the Bar on Wednesday next, for the Petitioners against the Bill. ' Several Members were added, on Motion, to the • Committee on the Corn Petitions. - Lord FOLKSTONE moved for "An Account of the Number and Names of Captains in the different Re intents of Militia, who were not possessed on a certain day of the usual qualifications." - The CUANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, That same of the Papers moved for by the Noble Lord, were on the Table, and that the others would be produced as soon as possible. Mr. YoRKE brought up a " Bill for the rrtnre speedily supplying and facilitating the filling up of Vacancies in the Militia." Sir JOHN WRorr ESL ET hoped that an indemnity to Officers who had served, or were serving, with. out qualifications, would make part of that Bill. They were by the existing laws ;übjeft to a penalty of 2001. against the exaaion of which he thought they should be protefted. The Bill was read a first time ; and on the Mo tion of Mr. YORKE, ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. LOYALTY LOAN. Mr. DENT said, that as considerable doubts had arisen respelling the interpretation of the terms of the Loyalty Loan At, he felt it incumbent on him to move, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee to consider that Law, and all the cir. cumstances which were connected with the trans• aetion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no objeaion to the Committee, but could not accede to the proposition of the Honourable Gentleman with out some regular notice being given. Mr. DENT then gave notice for to-morrow se'n_ night. CORRESPONDENCE AT MUNICH. Lord MO RPETH said, that he trusted the House would excuse him for deviating. a little from the rules of debate, and particularly as the subjett upon which he would occupy a small portion of its time, was one in which the honour and charader of the Country were materially involved. He alluded to the foul imputation that had been endeavoured to he cast on the Government and its Representative, by a recent publication in a French Official Paper.—To the circumstatsces of that transaaion he thought it beneath him to advert, as long as they had been confined to the foul and malignant pages of The Mo. rz;teur ; and while they only tended to demonstrate the rancour of the French Government, he thought it was the best and most dignified course to treat them with silent scorn. But the Papers purporting • to be a Correspondence between the British Envoy Extraordinary at Munich, and a person residing at Paris, have been ufficially communicated by the French Minister to the different Ambassadors in that City, and the honour of the Nation has been impeached upon unsubstantiated fads, improbable in their nature, unproved, and, he confidently trust. ed, not to be proved. To those communications acknowledgments had been made, of some diversity in their tenor, but most of them certainly adopting and sandioning, in a greater or lesser degree, the foul reproach that had been cast on the British cha ratter ; and in the degraded state in which the greater part of the Courts of Europe were placed, the Representative of the Court of Russia was the only one of the Diplomatic Body who did in his answer express any doubt of the fad. Some of the Ambas. sadors to whom tha► communication was made, did certainly go to very extraordinary lengths in their replies to the French Minister, and such as he should hope would be found to deserve the censure of the different Powers they represent. He particularly al. luded to the Answer of the Representative of a Power who had sprung from the same source with ourselves, whose language was the same, and whose interests, he trusted,were not opposed to each other. (A loud clycf " hear! bear !") He was sorry to see sentiments so derogatory from the honour of the British charades, received with such pliant facility, by the Resident of a Power that should have known how to appreciate our National Charader, in a more friendly end favourable way. He had no Motion to make, hut he thought it incumbent on Ministers to either disavow or exculpate Mr. DRAKE, and to prove to Europe, and to the world, that they have got " pointed the dagger of the as sassin." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER : "Mr. Sr EAK ER, I rise to express my unfeigned ob. ligations to the Noble Lord for affording to His Ma. jesty's Ministers an opportunity of repelling the foulest and most infamous charge that has ever pro ceeded from a Government claiming to be conshler. ed as part of the civilized world ; a charge the most unfounded and diabolical, urged by a Government the most sanguinary and tyrannical, for the sole purpose, I implicitly believe, of giving a colour to the commission of crimes the most heinous and atro cious that have ever disgraced and blackened human nature. As to the imputation that the author and perpretators of that foul crime have attempted to throw on His Majesty's Government, it is almost beneath their dignity to condescend to refute it ; hut I think it my duty to state to this House, and to the civilized world, that no authority has been given, that no instructions have been transmitted to the English Minister at the Court of Munich, to engage iu or undertake any thing, that was not striftly consistent with the most scrupulous observance of the Rights of Nations, and what, perhaps, is paramount to them, the duties of humanity. After having said thus much, I hope it will not be exped ed from me, that I should say any thing more in re ply to that most false, scandalous, and malignant imputation. As to the Correspondence to which the Noble Lord has alluded, it is impossible for me to enter upon that sobjea, until some Communication shall have been received from the horourahle per son who has been so infamously attacked in it ; a Gentleman for whose charades I, perhaps, think as highly, and am certainly as solicitous, as the Noble Lord, or any one in the kingdom, can be. I have perfeEt confidence that the more the particulars of his condud are inquired into, the more apparent will be the propriety of it, and the vileness and false hood of that (as I have the hest greunds to suppose) most impudent and imfamous fabrication. As soon as His Majesty's Government shall have received the Communications they exile_`} from Mr. DRAKE, the Noble Lord may he assured they will not fail to adopt the most effedual measures for asserting and maintaining the honour of the Country. I must again express my obligations to the Noble Lord, for affording me an opportunity of dispelling the anxie. ty of the Country upon a subjeCt, the honour of its Representative, fur which they entertain all that laudable jealousy that befits a great and high.onind ed Nation." _ IRISH MILITIA AUGMENTATION BILL. On the Order of the Day being moved, for the third reading of the Lill for Au4menting the Mili. tia of Iceland, Mr. CAICR AFT rose to eppose. the Sr e leaving the Chair. He defended the Resolutions of the Colonels of Militia wile' had assembled at the Thatched-House, against the censure that he under. stood they had been exposed to. He thought they were drawn so clearly and explicitly, that it was nut possible to misunderstand them. It was stated in those Resolutions, that deliberation by armed bodies was dangerous ant) unconstitutional; that was neither more nor less than the law of the land. He condemned the plan of the SEC R ETARY at WAP for the augmentation of.the public force, as impolitic and impracticable ; and principally objected to it as tending to raise that species of competition in the different branches of the Recruiting Service, as would render it impossible for -us ever to acquire a consi derable disposable force. Sir WM. ELFORI) opposed the Bill, and prin. cipally that part of it which went to proVide for the creation of this force, by a bounty to be paid out of the Exchequers of the United Kingdom. He thought a Fencible Force much preferable to it, in asmuch as it was equally efficient, and was not liable to the constitutional objcetions that the Bill before the House was subjed to. Mr. PITT did not mean to trouble the House at length, but merely to state the ground of his opi nion, that it was impossible to pass the present mea sure into a law. He was not one of those who were of opinion, that under all circumstances, there were objelions against a force, in its nature not disposa ble. On the contrary, he felt that there might be circumstances in the situation of a country, and such he considered the circumstances in which this Country was placed at the commencement of last year, which would render that description of force the most eligible, because in that description the greatest possible number could be obtained in a given time for the defence of the Country. As a force for limited service afforded the best prosped of num. hers; and the greatest facility in the execution, there could be no doubt of the propriety of resorting to it at first, and the similar circumstance; might consti tute a similar propriety ; he did not think, nor did he suppose that it would be contended by any Gentle. man, that such a description of force was in all cir. cumstances that which ought to be alone provided for the defence of the Country. • It would not be denied, that the Regular Force was that which was most to he looked to after the exigency of the ma, ment was by the other provided, but though this was his opinion, he did not think it necessary to enlarge upon it at present, because (here would be another opportunity for delivering his sentiments on that head with more piOpriety. He did not', how.: ever, conceive the two descriptions of Force incom. patible, because the limited Force, •which was solely calculated for defence, might under certain regula-: tions be made subservient to the rncreese of the Re gulars. The principle - of the present measure he considered as lying within a narrow compass. It was not a question between a limited and a general Force, but bet Ween two descriptions of limited Force. We had two species of Forces whose ser vices were limited, first the Militia, of which we had long experience; and next the Army of Re serve, which, in the present instance, we had for the fi rst t i me tr i e d, and which, from its services being extemied to dle United Empire, waa a better descrip:ion of Force than the Militia. But inde. Oeedent of the superiority which the! Army of Re. serve in this 'tesped had over the independ ent of its being officered by Regular Officers, in. dependent of the circumstance that the Militia, in a great measure, looses its charader when carried to too great an extent, and independent of the con. sideration that the Army of Reserve had been ex. pressly intended as a means of recruiting the Re gulars, he could not conceive any.good grounds that, in the present situation of the Empire, could be laid for augmenting a species of so limited a de scription. By the view which he took of the mea sure before the House, it appeared to him, that an Ad which had been wisely framed to meet the exi. gencies of the Empire, and to provide for the Re cruiting of the Line, was to be suspended, that a machine which was in operation, was to he put art end to; that plans which had been wisely devised for pro. curing that species of Force which was under the circumstances of the Empire most desirable, were to be given up, in order that in consequence something else worse and more inefficient, might be substituted instead of them. They were to adopt a measure for the augmentation of the more limited Force, because this Ad. for raising the -Army of Reserve had not been at once efficient, hecatiee it had been found difficult to carry it into full and complete effect in the first instance. Considering all these circum stances, he was of opinion that the present measure viewed comparatively with that, which it was pro. posed by His Majesty's Ministers to suspend, was one of the most objectionable that could be con. ceived. He did not look upon it as in any resped so eligible as the measure of which we were at pre sent in possession, and it did not appear to him to afford so good a chance of promoting the progress of that description of Force, which on all hands was allowed to be most desirable. On these grounds, therefore, he should vote against the mea sure, not as against any augmentation of our force, but because we had every reason to exped a more effeaual increase to the best description of our Force, by the operation of the measure which was now proposed to be suspended. Lord CASTLEREAGII agreed with his Right Hon. Friend who - spoke last, that in many points the Army of Reserve had great advantages over the Militia, and principally as forming the nidus of a regular army. But as it was impossible to pro cure from those two sources the force that was wanted, it became necessary to recur to the third spe cies of force. He wished to coned a misconcep tion which had gone abroad respeding the suspen sion of the Army of Reserve At. It was not the intention of his Hon. Friend near him, to entirely suspend the operation of the Ast. He would not suspend the recruiting, but he meant to suspend the ballots, which created the competition, and the high bounties. To justify the present Bill, the Noble Lord stated, that it was in - Ireland alone that it. w as pradicable to raise men at a bounty inferior to th e Line or the Army of Reserve. It arose from th which the natives of that part of the Empire pr pe pireopossessed to follow thr Gmtry of the court_ try in preirteoCe to RflVtat i'i rw vet cellent. He did not concur in those differences that, had been endeavoured to be suported in respea 0' the mode of raising men in both Kingdoms ; ther the bounty was dire& as in Ireland, or indirect, as in this Country, the operation, as far as regard ed the financial part of the system, was the same in both Countries. If he thought that the pre sent measure could possibly-tend to impede the re cruiting for the regular service, if it c:mld even prevent the augmentation of that force by five thousand men, it would, in his mind, be an in superable objedion to it. But he did not think it would produce any difficulties in the way of the re cruiting service for the line. He had inspeled the returns of that service for a series of years, and he could perceive from them, that the Army did not get fewer men, even when the competition c.va at the highest. He did not think it advisable to forego the advantages of the present Bill. A great mass of the population of Ireland will e nter into the Militia, but not into the Army, and to procure the men wanted, the means of recruiting should be multiplied. As to the ohjeCtions that had been urged against the measure on the score of finance, and as to its being at the joint exf,ence of the United Kingdom, he did not think that would weigh much with Gentlemen, particularly if they rededed cha r , this was the part of the Empire most menaced, ao . t i to whom the immediate advantages (if it would re' suit ; he would therefore vote for the measure. BAAKES said, that Ministers were intr ° : diming a system, which is more limited, and 1 ! 5 1 ; efficient than the Army of Reserve, in lieu of o .ll ' . it was intended to be substituted ; it was Iva"' ing the Irish Militia in general liable. to the serf vice of the two countries; because a recruit wfi now suppose himself included, and eventually eq u !'; ly liable with others, and will, no doubt, retrilr" a larger bounty to induce him to enter. The a i l . ficiency occasioned by the power granted to His riia t i jesty ought to be supplied by a force equally go.°, in every respeCt. The Noble Lord had said, t 1"," it was an easy manner of disciplining the men o ' b " were newly raised ; but there were other regimats . of a different description, in which they miglit a ! easily attain that discipline. We were prov i° ' ing for a case which was not existing, as it must b e acknowledged that we are in no greater danger of in vasion than. we had been during the winter time. He was decidedly against the Bill, as it was encourog" b f jßectese quite ing a species of Force which was inferior to the other Army of Reserve. teancdotnit'eray Regularr Arr"Y' an which was o to the ir tention of Ministers themselves, at a time they were expressing desire to increase the gegu lac Army. It had been said, that the Army of Reserve AEI was not to he' suspended entirely ; he vvi!ihed to know what was the intention of Governnlen s upon that point ? Lard CASTLEREAGH explained, and sai 4 it was intended to suspend the operation of tbe Army of Reserve Ad in a certain degree, and to take from the Counties which were deficient in their quotas, a moderate fine in lieu thereof ; hut not to suspend the Recruiting, even for that service, at 3 : bounty inferior to that for the Regiments 00.11 Line. t he Mr. WIND HAM said, he did not think t ha ii t s Noble Lord, who spoke in answer to the Gentleman opposite (Mr. PITT), had been s `' cc ,r s e ful in combating his arguments. He would ve.,-°,l,e to obje4l to the former Bill, although it had 113 u ratification of that House ; and he objected r e " t i t present one on account of its relation thereto• had been said by those on the opposite bench , that hex and others in that House, were always coinfla: ing of the conduEl of Ministers, and , i n short, tha t " though they piped to us, we woul d not ailuce,!. and though they mourned, we wou ld not lament' (A laugh). He, however, would still obser ve : that he never went so far as to say,4' clisbal'‘l the Militia," he only wished that no au Vin , tation of that system should take place. Mitu'' ters did not call this a disposable Force, but th said that it gave them a greater command o f theg c disposable Force. That he denied ; becaus e the one was quite inconsistent with the other. The recruit-,; ing for the one would undoubtedly interfere with 1 ; : c other. Every one of the Ministers on the 01T°c[r. Bench seemed to be, as it were, his own anrago%'l, Every measure they adopted, they counteratte,a rr, the adoption of some other measure. I n 51 ', ° , - 0 1 they were in the situation ofa man who was by his own speare ; the right hand was ng, r ea with the left. Although they had already no less than ,i. 00,000 Volunteers, 70 , 0 00 and 36, 000 men for the Army of Reserve, 00 seemed ; yi n of still to he wishing to increase that deseriPt' oies force destined for a limited service. Such 19e3- 1-.lc dl" were totally at variance with one another. f 3 t , approved entirely of such a circuitous m ade ° c oo taining the object in view,. as that of r aising for the Militia, as a step towards increa sin4 e d Regular Army. The Militia were now die bounty, and not by ballot ; and why no , g ive An force to be raised the appellation of Fencibies , ancient Grecian, said he (alluding to A" cre bo g could never produce any thing from his h°rP„,her the strain of love, notwithstanding the great n- ; ;of of strings on his instrument ; so , in his gameo'in were the Ministers always harping on h here string ; they seemed to him to end alwaYs be they began. In the case of rebellion, it ing gig said, that it was proper to bring away the Irish Pc litia from their own country, to prevent a degr e _ e n party spirit, to prevent a regiment of Oran to fighting against Catholics. No man would as had occurred in that Country. Were any Troops pc augment the ferocity of such civil wars ;IS t° be substituted for the Militia, he s hould think ot her' foreigners were as fit for th e p ur p ose as anY aiiisc to prevent Englishmen or Irishmen fighting ag ij ht their own relations. Although, f bring be induced to agree to the propriety 0 aceO n Irishmen out of their own country on that s he Min iSter yet by the measures adopted by the . e d be ra ts le , found that other Irishmen were to however, he.i" e Ge nt . h their place. He doubted not that scorn B i ll . h le of the alc principle the had d n Ilalatedlybepenassiendd,ucuepdontothveote for. th.e Militia being thus always kept uP Gend e l height. This put him in mind of a c . er. , " uot9 , man, who always loved to inrox:cate 12 1 . g his F och t the method he adopted was, by keeflng,,tus Ode 1 .it. , w1 constantly soi ,plied by an arPar°