The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-18 00:00:00

alai; since, in a Utter to sly Noble and Learned Friend, written from Warwick, when I heard the first Reform Bill was brought forward; and if these were my honest opinions (and who will question it I thought that the tendency of this measure was to destroy the Sove reignty and the Contoitution, Wag it not my duty, as a Judge of the land, as a Privy Councillor, as •a Member of ',nine Lordships' House, with all my power to oppose it ?--(Cheers.) If this measure had originated with, and was supported by my earliest and meeleValukt friends—hy the very friends of my bosom — l would have acted in the same w ay.—(Cheers.) So much for my conduct and the attacks upon me. For the rest, the Re formers are triumphant--the barriers are broken down— the waters are out—who can predict their course, or tell the (levitation they will occasion ?—(Loud cheers.) I h pe, however, my anticipations may prove unfounded, and that the eehntry will not be ruined by the measure which has h—tn auctioned by the Noble Earl —(Cheers.) trl GRTLY ti d, it is not my intention to do or say an ything which can add to the irritation which prevail, Therefore I shall carefully abstain from saying anything which might call into question the personal conduct of anybody. It was for them to judge what their duty re quired, and to what extent they were called on by their duty to make sacrifices of their former opinions, and even to contradict by practice their former declarations.— (Hear, hear.) All this was for them to consider—all this might have been required.—(Cheers.) I, however, impute so improper motives to any man.—(Cheers.) But, on an occasion of this kind, what I expected was a temoet ate explanation from the Noble Lord ; but instead of this we have had a violent inveceive against the mea sure. Again have we heard the Reform arraiened as re volutionary—(Great cheering)—and as ten Ting to de siroy the Constitution.—(Continued cheering.) This we have heat d repeated by the Noble and Learned Lord. We have been'ar-aigned, too, for our conduct in giving ad vice to his Majesty which, it is said, if followed, would prove fatal to the independence and character of this House. E,fore I enter upon a consideration of these charges, let me ask if a course of conduct might not be persevered in which would be scarcely less dangerous to the indepen dence of this House? Might not a course be persevered in which would hying this House into conflict with the other House of Parliament, and with the prevailing sense of the people?—(Cheers.) And might not this expose th House to far greater dangers than that course which we propose to pursue ?—(Cheers.) But laying this aside for the moment—first, as to Reform in Parliament, I have an often explained the grounds and motives on which it was proposed, that it would he a mere waste of time again to enter at any length into similar statements.—(Cheers.) The epiuions I expressed on the subject are no new opinions. I have lone been convinced of the necessity of Reform, to place the Constitution upon a sound, perma nent, and safe foundation.—(Cheers.)—Looking at the situation of the country, I thought the measure could no ioager safely he deferred without danger.—(Cheers.) When, therefore, the Noble Duke's administration resigned, when, according to the new construction, they left the So vereign alone—(Hear, and liughter)—when I was called on to assi s t his Majesty in forming a new administration, 1 adhered to those opinions upon the Subject which I had se•erted out of office, and from which, for the purpose of obtaining office, I certainly would not have departed or ahendoned—(Cheers)—and I accordingly made it a condi tion of my accepting power, that I should have the liberty of proposing a measure of Reform to Parliament.— (Cheers.) This was acceded to, and it then became my .:city to consider the extent of the measure; and I deter mined that the best and safest course to pursue was to bring in a measure of such extent as would give satisfac tion to the country—(Cheers)—and which would be not only consistent with, but conducive to the safety of the constitution. It was on this principle I brought in the R 11 ; hut the Noble and Learned Lord considers it revolu tionary, and therefore feels it his duty to oppose it—(Cheers) I do not quarrel with his opinions ; all I can state is, that my opinions on the subject differ as widely from his as it is possible for difference to extend. I do not complain of the opposition made by the Noble Lord; but I do complain of the manner in which it was conducted, in not confining itself to the subject, but branching out into direct personal attacks, which I feel myself called on to disclaim as indig nantly as the Noble and Learned Lord did those matters imputed to him.—(Cheers.) It is not necessary to go into this long-disputed question of Reform The Bill, when it was brought forward, received the general appro itation of the country, such as no former measure had ever yet commanded. I should like to know if it had not some effect in controlling public opinion, and quieting that agit ttion which resistance to the measure raised. I should like to know how it is that even the greatest enemies to Reform now acknowledge that some Reform is necessary—that they no longer op pose it, and at last confess that it must also be an exten sive Reform.—(Cheers.) I think, then, I was justified in bringing in a measure consistent with those principles I have maintained through life; and if it had been suffered to pass, as it ought to pass, I have no doubt it would have given universal satisfaction throughout the country. This Bill met with a formidable opposition. It passed the House of Commons, after an appeal to the country, by a triumphant majority. Most unfortunately it was re jected by this House.—(Cheers.) Another Bill, as efficient as this, the Noble Duke says, was brought in ; but that it is more dangerous I dispute and deny. It had the good for tune to receive the sanction of its principles by a majority your Lordships on the second reading. I now cosine to -.he point which conduced to the present state of affairs. I had hoped that it would pass the Committee without such a change as would render it impossible for me to consent to its being sent down to the other House. But on the very first clause, a motion was made, the re sult of which was described as trifling and unimportant; hut, in my opinion it proved such a disposition in this House, and was essentially of such injury to the Bill, that I felt 1 should not be justified in going tarther, in deluding the people with a prospect of success which was never to be attained, and in continuing, by the discussions in the Committee, that irritation throughout the country which it is so necessary to allay.—(Cheers.) It was then fur me to consider which of the two courses I would pursue— whether I would abandon the Bill altogether, or whether I would recommend that measure to his Majesty which could alone enab!e the Government to go on with the Bill. We adopted the latter alternative, and did propose to his Majesty that advice which the Noble Duke has arraigned so severely.—(Cheers.) In the course of his observations, the 2.:0h1e Duke stated that this had been acted on as a threat. I am not sensible that I ant liable to that impu tation. Pressed and goaded as I was upon the subject, I do not think I breathed a syllable on it excepting once. :t was to state that I felt as strongly as most Noble Lords the objections to a measure of the description alluded to, unless in such a case of necessity as would justify the con stitutional exercise of the prerogative of the Crown to pre v nt, a collision between the two Houses of Parliament. That w 's the precise situation in which we were placed ; we had either to recommend this measure with all the risk of consequences, or suffer this House to come into collision with the public opinion and the other House of Parliament—(Cheers)—a collision to which, if this House were unwise enough to commit itself, it is not easy to suppose that it can be victorious.—(Hear, hear.) Tie Noble Duke, in referring to his Majesty's speech from the throne in June, asked who could have thought a measure of this kind would have been proposed.-- (Load cheers.) That passage in the speech related to a me ,sure of Reform—and I contend that the measure of Reform before your Lordships does possess the qualities there prescribed for it. It will tend to remove abuses— to give additional vigour and strength to the Constitution, and restore the confidence of the people in their represen tatives." This, then, was the situation in which we were placed. We were under the uecessity of offering the ad vice to csesoe as many new Peers as would carry the mea sure of Reform through this house unmutilated in any of its essential provisions, or resign our offices. Now I say that under these circumstances, the advice to create new Peers was required. The Noble and Learned Lord says it was not constitutional ; but I say it was constitutional, and I can refer him to books of authority on that subject, in which it is distinctly asserted, that one of the uses of vesting the prerogative of creating new Peers in the Crown is to prevent the possibility of the recurrence of those evils which must otherwise result from a permanent colli sion between the two Houses of Parliament; and this danger was rendered imminent by the opposition made to the Reform Bill by the Noble Lords on the other side of the House. And I ask, what would be the consequences if we were to suppose that such a prerogative did not exist? or could not be constitutionally exercised ? The Commons had a control over the power of the Crown by the privi lege, in extreme cases, of refusing the supplies ; and the Crown had, by means of this House, a control against the effects of viole n t an d ras h proceed i ngs on the part nt the Commons. But if a majority of this House was to have the power, whenever they pleased, of op posing the declared and decided wishes both of the Crown and the people, without any means of modifying that power, then this country would be placed entirely under the the influence of an uncontrollable Oligarchy. I say that, is a majority of this House should have the power of act ing adversely to the Crown and the Commons, and was determined to exercise that power without being liable to check or control, the Constitution is altered, and the Go vernment of this country is not a limited Monarchy, but an 0116archy.—(Hear, Lear.) On these grounds we ten dered that advice to his 31..jesty, which we were well iustified by the spirit and by the letter of the Constitution ;n tendering ; nay, more which, under the circum -tances, it was our imperative duty to tender—(Hear, hear) —considering the consequences that were likely ti' result from the failure of the measure. But then it wa• a rid that the Ministers had, by their resignation, left hi. Alrijesty alone, and this was said as if there had been something invidious and envious in this conduct of Mini stars. I would ask in what this conduct differs from any other resignation? The Ministers offered that advice to his Majesty which they thought themselves called upon to offer in the situation in which they were placed. His Ma jesty was pleased to refuse compliance with that advice, and then the Ministers most respectfully tendered their resignations, being the only course which remained for them to follow, if they were prepared to act as honest and independent men.—(Hear, hear.) They did not, there fore, leave his Majesty alone, or abandon him in any invi dious or ungenerous sent of the word, but merely acted in the manner that was due to their character and honour as honest and independent men. I believe that the Noble Duke himself, on reflection, will be convinced that there was no want on our part of respectful duty to his Majesty ; and that there was nothing extraordinary in our resigna tion, considering the circumstances in which we were placed ; and that we have deserved no reproaches for our audacious or ungracious abandonment of his Majesty. If we could have been guilty of an invidious or ungracious proceeding toward.. his Majesty, or any want of duty with respect to him, we must hive been the most ungrateful of men ; for never did men owe more to a Sovereign for the uniform kindness, condescension, and confidence with which were treated by his Majesty ; and 201 to the attacks to which the Noble Duke alludes, as having been made on his Majesty in the public press, all I can say is, that I had no concern whatever in these attacks, and that neither the Noble Duke nor any other Peer in this Hous could ba more distressed at them than I was.—(Hear, hear.) I have always proclaimed, and now du in the most public manner proclaim, that I have always firmly believed, and do firmly believe, that his Majesty was actuated by the very best motives on this as on every other occasion. --(Hear, hear, from all parts of the House.) Ido not think it necessary for me to say any more on the present occasion, for I suppose nobody will expect that I should disclose what has passed confidentially between his Majesty and myself, without having first distinctly obtained his Majesty's consent and permission; and it ought always to be recollected that it was contrary to the principles and the practice of the Constitution to arraign the personal conduct of the Sovereign. This much I thought it my duty to say, in vindication of his Majesty, to whom I must ever remain bound in gratitude for the kindness and confidence with which he has been pleased always to treat me; for the present, it is not fitting that I should make any communication as to what has passed between his Majesty and myself, beyond what I before stated. I before stated that I was again in communication with his Majesty, because I thought that as to that particular, and as to the views which I myself entertained, there ought to be no concealment from this House. But I cannot state at this moment that this communication between his Ma. jesty and myself has been attended wit's any result. All I can state is, that I still continue to be of opinion that full effect ought to be given to the Bill of Reform now on your Lordships' Table, and that it ought to be passed unmutilated and unimpaired in all its main principles and essential provisions.—( Hear, hear! from the Ministerial side.) The Earl of MANSFIELD—It might perhaps be more proper for him to take another opportunity of addressing their Lordships, on this subject, yet he was anxious now to say a few words. He had endeavoured to form the best opinion, and to act in the best manner that he could in regard to this measure of Reform ; aed however little worth his opinion might he supposed by some to be, he had formed his opinion, and from that he was not disposed to swerve. Nor did he see any reason to retract it. But he had observed a statement in the public papers, that the Noble and Illustrious Duke near him had invited him to take office, and that he had declined it ; and he had also observed a statement that his Majesty bad invited him to take office along with the Duke of Wellington, and that he bad replied that he had had enough of the Duke of Wellington. Of these statements I can only say that they are false, and that the latter is not only false, but grossly insulting to his Majesty. In the audience which I had of his Majesty, there were only two persons pre sent; and it was insulting to his Majesty to say that any account, and particularly so very incorrect an ac count, should have been given of what had passed at that interview. He thought it his duty to state this much, in regard to the interview that he had with his Majesty. With regard to the speech of the Noble and Illustrious Duke near him, that must have made a due impression. No doubt the Noble Duke was placed in a painful situation, and every one must applaud the explanation which the Noble Duke had given, whether to concur with him in the course which he had felt himself constrained to adopt or not. It was no doubt painful to him to do anything that might delay the settlement of the Government, considering the situation in which his Majesty was placed. The calumnies that had been published against the Noble Duke could only impose on the credulous and ignorant, although it appeared strange that they should not have been dis credited and discountenanced by some persons, who must have known that they were unfounded. As for himself, whenever he opposed the measure of the Noble Duke or any other Minister, he had acted entirely on public grounds, and regarded no one, far lees the Noble Duke, with envy or personal hostility.—(Hear, hear.) This was what he thought due to own sense of honour, honesty, and independence. He would submit his own judgment, im plicitly to no one, and neither feelings of friendship nor any other motive would prevent him from stating his free and unbiassed opinion, or acting as an honest and inde pendent Member of Parliament. But he would not do justice to his own feelings if lie refrained from publicly proclaiming, in however inadequate tet tns, his ad miration of the patriotic and disinterested conduct of the Noble Duke.—(Loud cheering on the Opposition side.) He was more bound than almost any other to say this much in favour of the Noble Duke, although he could not concur with the Noble Duke in the extent of concession to which the Noble Duke, from the best and purest of motives, appeared disposed to go. In that ex tent of concession he himself certainly could not join the Noble Duke, although he w as aware that a majority of their Lordships' House would probably be disposed to go that length. But the matter of the greatest importance was to see what took place in the course of this business. His Majesty found himself placed in a painful situation, and sent for the Noble Duke, who, when so called upon, could not refuse to comply with the invitation. But the Noble Duke did not propose that he himself should take office, but, on the contrary, persuaded his Majesty to take others into his councils.—( Hear, hear.) Did that show any eagerness after place ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl opposite could not deny but that Ministers had left his Majesty in a painful and distressing predicament ; but he said that Ministers were placed in circumstances in which they could not act otherwise—and what were these cir cumstances ? On Monday, the House had proceeded to discuss the clauses of the Bill in Committee, and that was the occasion for proposing such alterations and amend ments as might he deemed requisite. It was, indeed, a tei tin argument for the second reading, that alterations and amendments might be proposed in the Committee. That was the proper time for proposing alterations and amendments, and for making such alterations they hail the example of the Noble Earl himself, who had made an al teration, and that not an unimportant one, in his measure. It was proposed, that in the discussion of the clauses, pre ference should be given to the enfranchising part of the Bill. He thought that this was not of sufficient im portance to justify the opposition which Ministers had made to it, and he said so at the time.-- The Noble Earl had explained the reason why he thought otherwise, and yet this was somewhat strange, when it was considered that a colleague of the Noble Earl (Lord Althorp) had said in another place, that it was a matter of indifference whether they began first with the enfranchising or disfranchising clauses.—(Hear.) Now he had always understood that it was perfecly fair in the Committee to propose alterations and amendments, even if they should go to the disfigurement of the mea sure; but the Noble Esrl, it appeared, would admit of no alteration, and so he thought proper to object to the trans position of the clauses. Now he should have thought that the most natural proceeding was to begin with the en franchising clauses, and that the first consideration ought to be, not that Old Sarum had Members, but that Man• cheater had none. That was naturally the first grievance to be considered ; and after having settled what places ought to be enfranchised, and what additional 'Members (if any) ought to be given to Scotland, they might then have gone on to consider how far the disfranchisement ought to be carried, in order not to add to the actual num ber of the present House of Commons. No good reason was assigned for refusing to adopt this course. The mat. ter was of no serious import ince, and the opposition of Ministers appeared rather unaccountable. The reason which was avowed could hardly be the true one, and it was natural, therefore to look for some other reason. Whit, then, was the reason? Was it that the Ministers themselves began to be apprehensive of the consequences of the Irish Reform Bill ?—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps they themselves began to be afraid of the consequences of that hill, and of the flames and insurrections which their orders had raised in our West India Colonies.--(Hear, hear, on the Opposition side.) Perhaps they begin to feel heir unatnesa for and to be anxlnua to get rid of •heir places, and therefore they had resolved to give advice vhich they could hardly expect that his Majesty would Billow, and then, the advice having been rejected, they esigned. The Noble Earl denied that he had used any :hreat of the creation of peers, in order to induce their Lordships to adopt this meiesure in its full extent, but something of that nature had been circulated by per aen supposed to he connected with Ministers. The Noble Earl said that he mentioned the subject only once, but •hen the Noble Earl could hardly deny but that frequent 'allusion had been made to it—a circumstance which ex cited but little attention, since it was supposed that it was scarcely possible that such advice would be offered, or that, if offered, it would be complied with. But that advice, it appeared, had been given, and the Noble Earl said, that to have followed it would have been a proper exercise of the royal prerogative. Now, it had been stated by a Nol.le Baron (Lord Ellenhorough) that he would go the length of leaving in force the three great provisions of the Bill—the enfranchisement, disfran c hi semen t, an d 101. qualification, and, therefore, there a p peare d no goo d reason why Minis ters should have objected to the consideration of the enfran chising clauses in the first instance. Where then was the necessity, even on t h e i r own v i ews , f or g i v i ng suc h advice, or for such an exercise of the prerogative? They said they had no other alternative. But there was another alternative. The present House of Commons had been elected before the measure of Roform now on their Lord ships' table had been submitted to Parliament, and at the time of the election, the public in general could not have been aware of its provisions. Why, then, did they not resort to the expedient of again appealing to the country, and ascertaining the opinion of the public as to the pro visions of th e measure as amen d e d b y t h e pre s e nt Bill ? The Noble Earl said, that if the Crown were not to exer cise this prerogative of creating Peers, the country would be ruled by an o li garc h y ; b ut h e (L or d M an sfield) s iid, that if the Ministers of the Crown should have the power of thus neutralizing their Lordships' House by the creation of Peers, the country would then, at all events, be ruled by an oligarchy.—(Herr, hear, on the Opposition side.) What number of Peers Ministers pro posed to have created was unknown to him ; but there could be no doubt that, to accomplish their object, the number must be very considerable. For his own part, he had no intention to oppose the proper exercise of the Royal prerogative; but he did most strenuously oppose the abuse of that prerogative. There were many who were, no doubt, well qualified to enter that House, and to be advanced to the dignity of the Peerage ; but where could the Noble Earl find the requisite number who would be ready to prostitute themselves so completely to part) purposes, as to enter the House on such terms as these ? ( Hear, hear, on the Opposition side.) He recollected when the Noble and Illustrious Duke near him re turned from Spain, and produced his patents at once for all the honors in the power of the Crown to bestow, so that the Officer of the House was fatigued with reading them. Who was there that saw this spectacle that did not feel his heart heat high at the thought that there was a man in the country that well deserved to be so rewarded, and who did not feel how happy were that country and that Sovereign which had the power so to reward such emi nent services ? But what must be the feelings of persons coming here and presenting the patents given them under such advice as the Ministers had tendered ; and what must be the feelings anti reflections of those who might witness such a spectacle? They would not have to show any recorded services to justify their advancement, and could only point to the mero niotu of the Crown ; and then, with what feelings could they attest before their Maker they would faithfully perform their duty as I'eers of Parliament ? Only consider of seeing them insert ing their names in the roll of that House, contaminated, as it would be, by such an association, and consigning themselves to infamy, which was generally much more permanent and lasting than fame. From the disgrace of limb an association, it was the object of the Noble Duke to extricate this House, and the attempt was a noble one, even though it might fail. When the Noble Duke bad come to think that matters had been brought to such a pass that some measure of Reform was almost inevitable, lie, instead of seeking office for himself, persuaded his Majesty to give office to others, whom the Noble Duke thought he could conscientiously support. It had become a fashion with some to ascribe to those on his aide of the House, an eagerness for office. But had not others sometimes evinced an eagerness for office ? When the Noble Duke brought forward the Catholic Question, there was a great clamour among the members of a certain party about Ilse hardship of their measures being taken out of their hands, and brought forward while any others were in office. It was true that they had then supported the measure, and why should they not now support a Reform, although the measure should be under the management of others? The Noble Duke said that he bad found it impossible to form an Administration, and yet he had handsomely given their due weed of praise to those who could not conscientiously agree with him, and all must regard the Noble Duke's 1 conduct throughout the whole proceeding with the high est admiration.—(Cheers on the Opposition side.) It must be confessed on all hands, that the Nob'e Duke acted from the best and the purest motives. It was matter of high merit in hint that he had acted as he had done, til:hougla he failed of success. The praise due to him was not the less on that account, and he found it difficult for him to express his admiration of the Noble Duke in ade quate terms. In appreciating the merits of the Noble Duke, they must look to the character of his conduct, and not to the result.—(Loud cheering.) The Noble Earl opposite might have been induced to give the fatal advice by the excitement of the moment, from wounded pride, and such frailties as were incident to human nature ; but, for his own part, he, in the interview which he had with his Majesty, had stated that his Ma jesty ought to pause before he resorted to the expedient . of creating such a number of Peers as would destroy the in dependence of that House.—(Cheers on the Opposition side.) He !lid not know how the present crisis was to ter minate, hut lie hoped it would not end in the creation of Peers. This was merely a pret e xt in order to mortify such of their Lordships as were unwilling to support the Ministerial measure to its fullest extent. He might call upon Ministers to take a warning from history, and re member the fall of two Ministers in France, who had acted upon the principle which the Ministers appeared now disposed to follow. He felt no personal hostility to Ministers, however strongly he might disapprove of their measures. He had much rather that they should remain in office than have the successors which the success of their measures would bring into office. If they succeeded in carrying them into effect in their full extent, their suc cessors would be taken—to borrow a phrase from our neighbours—from the extreme gauche. Such persons must inevitably succeed, and then consider whether the consequences would not be revolutionary. In his opinion such must be the inevitable consequences ; and it was for that reason that he thought himself bound by every means in his power to oppose these measures.—(Cheers on the Opposition side.) The Earl of WINCHILSEA—He felt himself called upon to take this opportunity of addressing a few words to their Lordship, since he might not long have the power of addressing them as an independent Member of that House. And, in the first pl ice, he must express his warmest feelings of gratitude ,to his Majesty for having spurned with the utmost scorn the advice which, if it bad been followed, must have led to the destruction of the in dependence of their Lordships' House; and to this he must add, that he looked on the conduct of Ministers, in giv ing that advice, with the utmost scorn and indignation. He must say, however, that he felt the most lively joy at the conduct of one of the Ministers (query—the Duke of Richmond ?), who was reported to have dissented from the proposition to tender such pernicious advice. As for the Noble Earl opposite, although he did not mean to im pute to him any improper motives, yet the fact appeared to be certain, that he had placed his Majesty in a most unparalleled situation. The Noble Earl, as his excuse, had referred to the division in the Committee on Monday. But lie did not think that could have been considered as a ff t h e o re r n p in h n e o t t h h e e r r p t h l s e c e e n had fra n d i e h sc i m r i i n b g e d o i r t matter of impo r t ance , w h en he knew that the Noble Earl's as colleague a ni att e ( r L o o f r d i indifference disfranchising thieves should be first discussed. But more particularly when a Noble Baron (Ellenboreuels) had said that he would concede th e di s i ranch i eement in schedule A, the eniranchising clauses an d t h e 10/. qualification clause,' he had thought it would be seen w h et h er Ministers would be satisfied with an ample measure of Reform. He then thought that it could be a matter of no serious moment whether the enfranchising or the disfranchising clauses were first considered, and when he found the Ministers so keenly opposing a proposition which sig nified so little, he did begin to think that their ob ject might be to have a pretence for creating Peers. He did say, that the line of conduct pursued by Ministers had a direct tendency to degrad e , di sgrace , and destroy that House. The advice which th e y t en d ere d to his Majesty was the most insulting and most daring that ever bad been offered by a subject to his Sovereign. —(Cheering on the Opposition side.) What oth er consequence could fellow than that , if that advice had been acted upon, there would be an end of that House as an independent branch of the Legislature ? If the Noble Earl had felt what was due to the House, he would never have offered suc h ad vice to his Majesty. But he most hi g hl y apprec i ate d the Noble and disinterested conduct of the Nobl e D u k e who sat near him ; and he had no doubt but that he. and his friends bad acted from the purest and most bondur able motives. lie rrgardel the itGlittitiet of the Noble Duke with the highest admiration, and there was no sa crifice consistent with a due respect to his own character ind honour that he himself would not have made, if he had beer. called upon by his Majesty as the Noble Duke had been. lie called upon those who valued their cha racters more than they did their lives to treat with scorn and contempt the motives held out to them to sacrifice the former. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY, after adverting to the Address to his Majesty from the town of B-lfast, and reading several passage+ from that address, begged to ask the Noble Earl opposite if their Lordship+ were to ad dress him as Minister—if they were to understand that the advice which he bad tendered to his Majesty had been accepted or rejected ? . . _ . Earl GREY repeated, that the communication which he had received from his Majesty, had not yet led to any conclusive result. More than that he did not feel himself called upon to say. In fact, he had on Tuesday stated all that he could now state. A charge had that evening been made against him by a Noble Lord, as if he had been guilty, as a Minister, of most improper conduct in tendering his resignation to his Sovereign. He was not aware, however, that in so doing be had done more than many Ministers before him. But it was asserted that be had taken this step when he was aware that no other Ad ministration could be formed. Wbat reason however, was there, for supposing that no other Administration could be formed ; their Lordships having been told over and over again by Noble Lords opposite, that they were the most fit persons to form a Ministry ? If his Majesty were !eft alone on this occasion, it was in consequence of the advice of the Noble Lords opposite, and not in conse quence of his (Lord Grey's) advice, or that of his friends. 'Phis, however, he would distinctly state to the Noble Marquess, that unless he (Lord Grey) could be assured of the means of carrying the Reformat Bill in a perfectly effi cient state, he would not remain in office. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to say one word, simply in addition to what had fallen from his Noble Friend, and which he was sure his Noble Friend would have said if he had borne it in mind. Not only was it a condition that the Bill should be carried in its efficient state, but also that it should be carried with every rea sonable despatch that was consistent with a due consideration of its provisions. The Earl of HADDINGTON did not wish to prolong the debate, or the irritation which existed on the subject. But he must protest against the statements which had been wade by the Noble Earl opposite. There was nothing in the conduct of that House, on the recent occasion, which would possibly justify the advice which that Noble Earl hid given to his Majesty. There was nothing in the conduct of that House, from the moment at which the Reform Bill had been introduced into it until the present moment, which could justify a Constitutional Minister in adopting such a revolutionary measure as that which had been adopted by the Noble Earl--a measure which went to stultify the voice, and annihilate the just influence of that House, and which he most conscientiously believed tended to lay the foundation of the ruin of the Monarchy.—(Hear, hear, t ear ) The conduct of the Noble Duke on that side of the House had been calved in question. In his (Lord Haddington's) opinion, the manner in which that Noble Duke had obeyed the voice of his So vereign did him the highest honour. He had never keen one of that Noble Duke's partisans ; on the contrary, he had frequently opposed him. But, feeling as he did on the conduct which that Noble Duke had recently pur sued, he should be guilty of a gross dereliction of duty if he did not declare in the face of their Lordships and of the public, that, notwithstanding the obloquy which it had been attempted to heap upon the Noble Duke, that Noble Duke had deserved well of his country.—(Hear, hear, hear.) There were principles which, generally speaking, ought to be considered of universal application ; but would any man say that there might not be times and circumstances, the urgency of which should at least ren der the application of those principles a doubtful matter? Ought not men to look at the result of any course of pro ceeding which they adopted ? A man might, in deference to necessity, give up that to which, in ordinary times, he would have tenaciously adhered. It was so with the Re form Bill. The adoption of it in its fullest extent would he fatal to Monarchy; but would the Noble Duke have done his duty to the Monarchy had he left it to the full operation of the Bill, and bad he not proposed such a mo dification as would render it less noxious ? By so doing the Noble Duke had taken the course the least prejudicial to the interests of the Monarchy, and for so doing the No ble Duke should have his support. The Earl of CARNARVON did not rise to praise the Noble Duke, for his conduct was above all praise. The Noble Lords opposite had assumed that the object of their Administration was external tranquillity. Now the re sult proved that no Ministers ever were more la mentably deficient in obtaining the object at which they aimed.-- The fact was, that they had been poking the fire of public discontent, and putting on fresh coals, and now they ex claimed that it was too hot.—(A laugh.) A more vio lent and cruel duresse than they had attempted to impose upon their Sovereign could not be imagined. Their ex cuse was, that they were anxicus to prevent a collision be tween the two Houses of Parliament. That, however, was not their object. They endeavoured to press this re volutionary measure on a reluctant, honest, and con. scientious Sovereign; not because there was a collision between the two Houses of Parliament, but because in their fretful anticipations they conceived it possible that some time or other there might he. If he were a suspi cious man, he would say that they had hurried on the vio lent course which they had pursued, because they knew that if they had given time for the introduction of the measure which it w is intended on his (Lord Carnarvon's) side of the House to propose, all their votes must fail to produce any collision between the two Houses.—(Hear, hear.) They could not have induced even a Reformed House of Commons to come to such a collision. A col lision ! Could that point have been made a matter of collision which the other }louse of Parliament had avowedly viewed as a matter of indifference ? But even if the alterations which might have been made in the Committee had affected the efficiency of the gill (the probability of which he denied), the Noble Lord knew very well that no act of the Committee was definitive. Why not, therefore, wait until the decision of the House upon the Report of the Com mittee, before the advice was given to the Crown to exer cise its prerogative? Why? But because, in that case, neither the House of Commons nor the country would have had the means of knowing what the amendments were which it was proposed to introduce into the Bill ; and because it would have been impossible to keep alive the agitation which it was their great object to promote. To ask the Sovereign not only to make five, or six, or twenty Peers, but to promise to make as many more as Ministers might think necessary, was nothing less thin to ask him to put the Crown in Commission, and to make the Noble Earl opposite the First Commissioner.—(N eer , heir, hear.) They who professed to abolish corrupt boroughs, were anxious to make the whole House of Lords a corrupt proprietary borough in the hands of the Lord Protector of the realm.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The question was reduced to this.—Was his Majesty, or the Noble Earl, to be at the head of the State? He repeated that if an opportunity had been afforded for hearing the propositions which his side of the House had intended to bring forward, the public agitation would, at least, have been suspended. He did not impute to the Noble Earl any wish to deceive the Sovereign ; but, in the whole history of the country, could any other Minister be found who would have made such a proposition as that which had been made by the Noble Earl ? When his Majesty, himself a Reformer, wished, probably,to modify the mea -ure, and to try what con ciliation would do before, by the exercise of his Royal pre rogative, he violated the independence of one of the llouses of Parliament, he was abandoned by his Ministers; leadnd t r h e r e the ved Noble his Earl o communicatione n pl i ne d that with i t r h r e i i t r Lo ca io n r . d h ps He Ir ti g e g a e r t , l h to ea a r sk )_ te w h het N iie oe Earl, r bl sucii who a cool, once (iel wawa eins W ul h t ig h — ad eLv : e ib i s l i e l'ae " ef un off t o r e' sincehe er t ed a k ebtnhya Br e from time i t t l s r iv e s whitish et Minister l b iln t e o s f e t r h the e Cromwell House oi trhdeerr e House o d f C ‘ o th o a : f - t ! ) no ns?--( Hear, hear.) If the demand of the Noble Earl had been by violence extorted from the Sovereign, more feature, u rea,ni,e,wusbpieapwero., whichuld have been removed from th ei r Lord ships' Table. From that time their functi ons as an in dependent part o f the British Cons titution would have ceased;and they would have been delivered over to a power armed with the whip of a slave elttt rougof h driver. nloi et e ni T ns ehi its oNfo theb main e Earl, in te llin g their Lordshi p s that t hey might have altered o a ti d p nhtes: l ahe ohibited th em from tnak tiv'loi P i g t s lightest alteration whatever in th e measure . If t s e i N el' t e ibltehheaEd Bill hadarglonint e beyond d h succeeded in depriving the House of Lords of their ancient prerogatives, it was evident that he c iuld not have dared to stop there. Having quitted the path of right for that of error , he must have proceeded to , r i me . There was no halting. The end must have been revolution. The Noble Earl must in his career have re sembled Robespierre.—(A laugh.) Noble Lords might i At igh, but he must be a bold man who would say what a itionth's continuance of the desperate course on which the Earl had entered might not have produced. On that sub j:et he would refer to the history of Europe fur the last forty years, every page of which contained a most useful l es son. He had already trespassed upon their Lord s hi ps ' attention at much greater length than he had intended; and Its would, alaarators, now molly shove that the 014, or t tking into consideration the Reform Bill in Committee , e discharged. Earl MULGRAVE expressed his astonishment at the ,bservations which had fallen from the Noble Earl, who certainly, under all the circumstances of the case, had thrown out a most injudicious sarcasm against his Noble Friend, in observing that he bad once been a Whig. It the Noble Duke opposite had resumed the reins of Govern ment, and had, notorious anti-Reformer as he was, pro posed the adoption of the Reform Bill, he (Lord Mul grave) would never have shrunk from the duty of express ing, day after day, his opinion of such indefensible con duct. He was happy, however, to observe, from the state of the benches on the other side of the House, that No ble Lords did not see much probability of such an oc currence. admiree re A ti l:t e rq a u d e d e r s o ess f o S f A t L h l e Sß N U oh ß le Y E c a o r u i ld o n iu ot io s s u s fficly e), ie w nt hs had waited till the Noble Duke (Wellington) left the House—(Cries of " No" from the Ministerialists and cheers from the Opposition)—who had waited, he repeated, till the Noble Duke left the House before he commenced an attack which he (Lord Salisbury) had no hesitation in pronouncing one of the most unfair, urjust, and uncour teous attacks ever made by one Peer against another in that House.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had made no at tack--he did not even mention the name of the Noble Duke until after his Noble Friend left the House, and then it was he made that attack to which be (Lord Salisbury) did not think it worth his while to reply.—(A laugh from the Ministerialists, and Hear ! from the Opposition.) The statement that Noble Dake bad made reflected as much ho nour on him as it did disgrace on those pretended friends of the Monarchy who had dared to insult their Sovereign, —(Hear)--by offering him ' advice which he did not scruple to pronounce highly treasonable, and one which, in other and better times, would have been instantly fol lowed by the impeachment of those who tendered it.— (Hear, and a laugh.) The time might yet come when they would be called to the bar of the House to answer for that advice ; but at all events, he bad the consolation of knowing that history would mark them as the destroyers of their country.—(Hear.) He did not ascribe motives, that would be disorderly—(Hear, and a laugh)—but he knew that those who had done their best endeavours to ruin their country, would go down with disgrace to pos. terity.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquess of CLANRICARDE contended that the Noble Duke (Wellington) had not left the House at the time his Noble Friend (Mulgrave) began to speak, and he certainly believed that the Noble Duke would have stopped to hear his Noble Friend's observations. He (Clanri ricarde) confessed it was with some surprise he heard the debate, on an occasion of this kind, turned into an attack on his Majesty's Ministers, who were, it was well known, placed at that moment in a situation so peculiarly embar rassing. He did not intend to say one word in disparage_ went of the character of the Noble Duke, nor would he, on his aide, impute motives ; but this ho might say, that the debate of that evening, and ,the whole character of the proceedings, tended much and most unfortunately to lower the character of public men in the eyes of the country.—(Hear, hear.) No one could, however, stand higher than the Noble Earl now again at the head of the Government. He had accepted office and held it with the unabated confidence of his Sovereign. He bad retired from it honoured by the praises of the country, and with no other opponents than those who had declared themselves unable to maintain possession of their places, because their measures were so impolitic that they had rendered them selves obnoxious to their country.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of Al ULGRAVE denied that he had spoken of the Noble Duke is the manner described by the Noble Marquess. He had, in truth, cautiously abstained from doing so, for two reasons —one, because the Noble Duke was not in his place, and the other, because the Noble Duke had not succeeded in his attempts to form a Ministry. It was too much, however, for the Noble Marquess to put forth the doctrine, that one Peer of Parliament was not to express his opinion., because another pleased to leave the House when the clock showed the arrival of some particu lar hour, which rendered it inconvenient for him to stay. The Nl,rquess of SALISBURY had gained quite enough when he heard from the Noble Earl (Mulgrave) an admission that he spoke of the Noble Duke in his ab sence, and after he saw him leave the House.—(Hear.) With respect to the Noble Earl's opinions of the conduct of that Noble Duke, he (Lord S.) was quite prepared to go into a discussion on that question whenever the Noble Earl pleased. The Earl of CARNARVON, in explanation, said, that all his observations referred to the creation of Peers, and to nothing else. With respect to what had been reported of his disclosures on the subject of the new Ministry, and his declaration that it was forming, but not formed, he had only to say, that he had no connexion with that forma tion ; but having given notice of his intention to proceed with the Reform Bill, he had felt it his duty, in the mean time, to ascertain what was the situation of affairs. He applied, therefore, to a Noble Friend of his, whom he knew to possess information on the subject, and from him he learned that which he had stated to the House, and which had guided him with reference to the notice he had given in the House.—(Hear.) Earl DE LA WARRE had not intended to address their Lordships on this subject opposite, but he could not permit the observations of a Noble Earl to pass unnoticed. That Noble Lord had ventured to assert, that the only consola tion of the Noble Duke was to be found in the cheers of the friends who surrounded him.—(Hear.) If this were true, he (Lord De La Warre) would blush for his country. —(Hear, hear.) Happily, however, it was not so, and veryat s o c t , h , ti de fi i ffN d e e r,, n eb t nl et t . h E a o t t dH I e eoa p pr u ,p bobsl bear.) c at e: r feeling on the s when the delusion and my s tifi cat i on o f the present hour s b p u a u b s t ie ed d c t n w o w a o n y u: o l d t b i e v b e w e s )but He t h a i t s t rhie might say, that the whole tendency of all their movements from the hour they accepted office, was to delude and mystify the people of this country. He trusted in God, however, that the hour was not distant when these de lusions would pass away, and the motives of the Noble Duke be fully appreciated. It was his honest and con scientious opinion, and he was proud and happy to avow it, that the Noble Duke had, in the last two days, shown a more pure and perfect devotion to his Sovereign and to his country, than he had heretofore displayed on the much-talked of plains of Waterloo.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He should not attempt to give expressions to his feelings on the nature of the calumnies which had been propagated with so much industry ; but if those feelings were not prevalent iii the breast of every respectable and thinking man throughout the empire, he should blush for his country.—(Hear.) This consolation they bad in what he might justly call the present agony of the State—that there remained one man among them, who, capable of setting aside all personal views of rising superior to all per sonal aggrandisement, dared to obey the command of his Sovereign, and to endeavour to rescue the Government front the hands of those who wished to destroy the inde pendence of that House, because a majority of its Members had exhibited in the exercise of their undoubted privileges a disposition to condemn some of the clauses of the Re form Bill, in an order different from that of the Com mons. There were men, be regretted to say, who had dared to advise their Sovoreign to make such an addition of Members to that House as would totally destroy its in dependence, because they had refused to acknowledge the perfection of their measures, and to vote without examina tion for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. (Hear, hear.) It was to check these men, in obedience to the command of his Sovereign, that the Noble Duke thought no sacrifices too great, and, in defiance of all the insinuations that bad been thrown out against that Noble Duke, he would say of the course he had adopted— .. Virtus repulse nescia sordithe Intaminatia fulget honoribus."—(Hear.) The Earl of RODEN could not let that opportunity pass without repealing his opinion, thit the Reform Bib would be the destruction of the country, and ultimately tear the crown from the head of the Sovereign. To the Bill, therefore, he thought it but candid to declare, he would give all the opposition in his power, and notwith standing all that had been said, he would never believe that a son of George the Third could be brought to con sent to a measure which would swamp the House of Peers at the request of any Minister, no matter by whom sup ported.—( Hear, ) The Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Bill in Committee was then discharged, and their Lordships adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Meg' 17. Colonel TORRENS presented a petition from Bolton, signed by upwards of 13,000 persons, praying the House not to grant any supplies until the Reform Bill was car- After a few observations from Mr. FIRGUSSON, Mr. HUNT, and Mr. JAMES, the pretition was ordered to be printed. Mr. SHAW presented a petition from a parish in York, against the new system of education in Ireland. Mr. F. PALMER stated that he had several petitions to present of a similar nature to the one presented by the Gallant Colonel, but he thought in the present state of the country it would be much better to postpone the present ing of them for some short time. Mr. PHILLIPS presented a petition from Loughbo rough, praying the House not to grant supplies until the passing of the Reform Bill. THE MINISTRY. After several petitions, principally of a private nature, Ltid biota ptfg‘ated, end 144141idialviy OU Lead ALtillakr entering the House, Mr. PAGET lose for the purpose of asking the Noble Lord whether the negotiation between his Majesty and Lord Grey had been finally settled. Lord ALTHORP said, that in answer to the question of the Honourable Member he had undoubtedly stated on a former night that a communication had been made from his Majesty to Earl Grey, and that in consequence of that communication he had sug gested the adjournment of the House to that day. Although he was not prepared at the present to say the arrangements in consequence of that communi cation were complete, yet he hoped that he bad reason to state that the probability was, that a most satisfactory arrangement would take place.—(Tremendous cheering.) In saying so, he trusted he need not again ask for themselves the confidence of the House and the country, that they should not feel justified in continuing in an Administra tion unless they felt and saw that they had every possible assurance of carrying this Reform 8111 without any ma; terial alterations in its principles.—(Loud Cheers.) Lord EBRINGTON congratulated the House and the country on the announcement that bad just been made by the Noble Lord, after which he could not bring himself to contemplate any disappointment in this part of the coun try. He trusted, however, that any arrangement that might be made would be made speedily. He was glad to hear also from the Noble Lord that no arrange ment would be made by them without they were cer tain of securing all the essential provisions of the Bill, and that it was their determination either to carry it with all its material parts or not at all. He expressed his anxious hope that in a short time the House and the country would have the great pleasure of hearing that the arrangements were brought to a final close; for although the state ment made by the Noble Lord that evening would doubtless have as great an effect as his previous statement had had in calming the excitement of the public mind, yet the country would not be composed or tranquil until it had had an assurance that the ar rangement was perfectly complete. His Majesty's Minis ters, by their acts and statements, had proved to the country more than ever how fully they were entitled to the confidence of the nation. He trusted, therefore, the arrangements that were in progress would soon be brought to a close.—(Cheers,) Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition against tithes from a place in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman said the declaration from the Noble Lord opposite had filled him with regret. The si , uation of the country was such, that it was impossible for the peace of Ireland to be preserved, if such a state of things was suffered to exist. Sir J. WROTTESLEY also expressed his regret, but hoped in a very short time to hear better news from that coun try. _ _ Mr. PORTMAN received several petitions from the county which be represents, but would defer presenting them in consequence of hie Noble Friend's statement. Mr. ROBINSON spoke to a similar effect. Mr. WARBURTON said in the town of Lyme, a meet ing, attended by 1,200 persons, had sent him a petition, which prayed that the supplies might be stopped by that house till the Reform Bill was passed. Another meeting for the same purpose was held at Bridport; in fact, she whole western part of that county was of one mind on the subject. Lord ASHLEY must repeat his former statement. He was not aware of the petitions which his Hon. eol league hail received, as well as those received by the Hon. Member for Bridport. His opinion still was, that a large majority in that county were opposed to the Bill. Mr. PORTMAN had not seen his Noble calleague since he hail received the petitions, and did not seem well aware of the opinion entertained by the inhabitants of the place which he represented. Mr. HUNT said the Hon. Member who had spoken last, once asked him whether he had not always sup ported Universal Suffrage. Having an opportunity now, he wished to ask the Hon. Member whether he intended to keep that promise which he had made on the hustings, that if his Noble colleague were returned for Dorset, he would retire ? Mr. PORTMAN said, that if the House would allow him, he should be very glad to avail himself of that op portunity to explain.— (No, no.) He had never made any such pledge upon the hustings, nor in any respect publicly. In reply to a letter be had received from his Noble Colleague, which reply he at the time considered to be a private communication to the Noble Lord, he had made use of language which bore such a construction. For he had said that if the Noble Lord should be able to I p ie ro ( v A e l t r h . at o t t he tm c a o n t r n s t h y of .uld Do g r i s v e etwasthe a efr w ee e h a o tl i i d e e rc rs ock county, an oppor tunity of furnishing another proof of their fickleness. Ac cordingly, when his Noble Friend was returned, he (Mr. Portman) offered to resign ; but he was called on by the principal freeholders not to throw the county into a state of agitation by resigning, and it was solely in compliance with that requisition that he retained his seat. He de nied, however, that he had given any public pledge to re sign, upon the return of the Noble Lord. Lord ASHLEY had always looked upon the commu nication of his Hon. Friend as a public document, and he hal used it as such by the advice of his Committee.— (Hear.) Mr. R. GORDON begged leave to confirm the state ment of the Hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that it was on y at the request of a large number of the freeholders that that Gentleman retained his seat.—(Hear.) Mr. HUME had expected that he should have been able to discharge the order for the call of the House on Friday, and that the expectations of the country would have been realized by the recall of the Ministers to office, with power to carry the Reform Bill in a perfect state. lie had been present the day before yesterday, at, perhaps, the most numerous meeting he had ever seen—certainly the most unanimous—and the universal desire was, that the entire measure of Reform should be carried. He was quite satisfied, that if Ministers allowed themselves to yield one jot of the Bill, instead of receiving credit for what they had done, they would severely disappoint the well-founded expectations of the people.—(Cheers.) Of course he did not refer to trifling alterations, but to essen tial points—(Cheers)—and he should be most happy—as happy as any UM in the House—if it could be carried with comparatively little opposition. It was, however, too much fcr the country to be kept in a state of suspense like that at present existing; and Ministers, in justice to the zeal and anxiety expressed by the people, ought to be as explanatory as possible upon the subject, in order that the people might act accordingly.—(Hear, hear.) If no additional and explicit assurance could be given—although he might be sorry to give lion. Gentlemen the trouble of attending to-morrow—he would not withdraw his notice of calling over the House; as every man ought to be at his post, to he prepared, if it must come, for disappoint ment. He would sit down, without saying more, than to expi ess his regret that such an impediment or hitch should have occurred in any quarter. Mr. J. WOOD should not have risen even to mention the petitions sent to him, but for the remark of the Noble Lord (the Member for Dorsetshire), who said he could answer for it, that in one county, at least, there was not by any means an unanimous feeling in favour of Reform. If such were the case in Dorsetshire, he (Mr. J. Wood) believed that was the only province in the United Kingdom which still submitted to be ruled by a boroughmongering faction.—(Cheers.) He advised the Noble Lord to make a tour into the north of England, in order that he might become acquainted with the spirit universally prevailiug there. He had been intrusted with petitions from various parts of Lancashire, and especially from Manchester and Preston, and in those districts the anxious expectations of the people were raised to the highest possible point; and he could testify that it would be most dangerous to disap point those expectations by deferring the Bill. The people would co/odder that their fondest hopes were destroyed, if, after the Ministers were restored, they did not, in a wan ner consistent with their lives and characters, carry the Reform Bill unnsutilated.—(Cheers from all sides.) Mr. HEYWOOD also should abstain from presenting petitions transmitted to him. In no county of England was the feeling in favour of Reform more intense than in Lancashire; the inhabitants were most materially suffering from the delay, and disappointment might be attended with fatal consequences. Captain LINDSAY thought it would be better if Hon. Gentlemen on the other side would pause and examine the precise circumstances of the case. The object of the Bill was to deattoy the influence of the Peers in the Hdose of Commons ; it had been passed here, and because, when it arrived in the House of Lords, one part was only post poned to another, although the principle of Reform was admitted, Ministers had thought proper to call upon the King to create sixty or seventy Peers, in order that the measure might be carried; not only the principle, but the whole of the details.—(Hear, hear ! and No, no!) The Noble Earl at the head of the Ministry had already made thirty.one Peers, and yet, while he objected to nominee Members of the House of Commons, he wished to make sixty or seventy base, vassal nominees, to whom he was to .slue his order, that the Reform Bill should be carried. Was there justice, probity or principle in such a pro ceeding? He regretted the vote pas se l some nights ago, and he apprehended that posterity would stare with asto nishment when they found that by it the House of Com mons had justified the creation of 101 nominee Peers, for the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill.--(Hear!) Lord ALTHORP—I undoubtedly thought that, by common consent, under the circumstances of which