The Sun. — London, England, 1832-02-18 00:00:00

when be saw the petition against the measures of Govern. eacnt,aigned. by 235,000 Protestants. That was not an indicdtien of a defect in their understanding, nor of that sanseless character which the Noble Lord had modestly ascribed to them. They shewed that they justly appreci ated the blessings they had long enjoyed. He must see noose better fruit of the conduct of the Government than he had yet beheld before he believed its professions. The Government said it was neuter ; but he asked, with which party did the contest arise ? The Catholics of Ireland had received the greatest boon ever conferred on any people ; and when they accepted it they said they bad then got every thing they wanted. But scarcely were they in pos session of their wishes when the embers of the old Asso ciation were again blown into a blaze, and publicly, openly, and boldly, they professed their object was to separate the two countries. Did the attack, then, originate with the Protestants?—(Hear.) Did the Government take any effectual measures to put down these attacks? The attack m tele on the tithes began more than a year ago ; had it been instigated by Protestants ? It began with the hurlers, attended by a legal gentleman to advise them so as not to break the law. Were these proceedings put down ? The Government said it had applied the law ; but for a whole year these pro ceedings had been going on the Government found the law not efficient, and it had come to ask for fresh powers. After this state of things had continued a whole year, the Nobl, Eirl came down and said, if he found that his powers were not sufficient to put down these disorders, he would not shrink from applying to Parliament for more power.—( Hear, hear.) He had submitted to excitement and aeitation for a whole - year; rebellion had not been ar rested but fostered ; and now, at the end of a year's pro fessions, the Government doubted whether it should apply fur greater power. If the Government made the appli cation to Parliament, it would be found that no power would be refused—no establWinsent withheld by those whom it generally considered in opposition to it ; and if any opposition were made, it would come from those to whom it was accustomed to look as its political friend.. The Noble Lord said that the agitator was not punished, because the law expired; but how did it expire? By the roost hasty, impatient proceeding of the Ministers.— (Hear, hear.) They had terminated the Parliament abruptly, and lost the opportunity of re-enacting the law. The Noble Lord concluded by stating, that he saw no ground for confiding in Ministers ; if he saw any determi nation, on its part, to put down the rebellious spirit that prevailed in Ireland, he should be ready to give his sup port to the measure proposed. He regretted to say that hitherto the policy of the present Government had been net to give that support to the Protestants of Ireland they had a right to expect, and which they had formerly re ceived.—( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE complained of the strong language used by the Noble Earl towards the Go vernment, who had said that rebellion had been fostered and eacnuraged in Ireland—[The Earl of CAANARVON did not say the Government had fostered rebellion.]—He wished that the Noble Lord would make some specific charge against the Government, and if the Noble Earl could show that the Government had neglected to support the clergy of Ireland, or to use its proper authority, he certainly would not support the Government. He must deny that the great body of the Protestants of Ireland were represented by the Orangemen, and as a Protestant Noble man, he must say that the associations alluded to by the Noble Lord were not the whole Protestant party. They had been spoken of as embracing two millions of Pro. testants, and now they had shrunk down to 230,000. The Earl of CARNARVON said a few words in explana tion, and the subject dropped.—Adjourned. ROUSE OF COMMONS, FZIIIWARY 17. The SPEAKER. took his seat at Four o'clock. This being the last day for the reception of petitions on private Bills the House was occupied a considerable time in receiving such petitions ; among them was one presented by Sir Ga AY SKIPWITH in favour of the projected rail-road from London to B rmingham, and leave was given to bring in a Bill to carry that project into effect. DESTROYING THRASHING MACHINES. Lord GEORGE LENNOX presented a petition from an individual named Wiliam Crnss, a farmer of the pariah of Whitfield, near Dover, in which the petitioner stated that his thrashing machine was destroyed in November last, and upon going before a Magistrate he was informed that there was no law to protect thrashing machines. The petitioner, therefore, prayed for an alteration in the law. The Noble Lord said he much regretted that thrash. ing machines were not protected in the same way as ma nufocturing machines, and if he found that his Majesty's Government did not intend to introduce a law to that effect, he certainly would do so himself. Mr. HUNIE said on a former occasion be presented a similar petition from an individual whom be referred to th e law officers, and he was tben told that both the peti tioner and himsdf had laboured under a mistake. He thought that no person would deny that thrashing ma chines derived the same protection as any other property, and if they were not protected by the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Member for Stafford, it was the duty of the Government to bring in such a Bill. He put it to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite (allud ing. we believe, to the Solicitor-General) whether thrash. ing machines ought not to be as well protected as a man's ' ,hairs or tables ? The SOLICITOR-GENERAL addressed a few words in reply across the table, but it was impossible to catch the purport of his observations. Lord G. LENNOX said he showed the petition to the Attorney-General the other day, and asked if it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to bring in such a Bill, and the reply was that it was not. Mr. HUME said that be should take the earliest op portunity, the first night of Supply, of putting the ques tion to his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. HUNT observed, that the Hon. and Learned Member for Middlesex had applied to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite (the Solicitor-General) as one of the law officers of the Crown, on a legal subject, and the Hon. Member had stated he could not give an answer.—(A laugh.) He did not altogether understand the subject, but he should like to know on what authority thrashing machines were not protected while manufacturing machines were ? Mr. O'CONNELL thought nothing could be more un fair than to impute blame to the Hon and Learned Member opposite, because he did not know the con tents of an Act of Parliament. If the Hon. Member for Preston supposed that lawyers knew the contents of every Act of Parliament, he had never made a greater mistake in his life, and that was a bold word. Sir EDWARD SUGDEN did not think that the Crown lawyers sat in that House for the purpose of answering every question of a legal nature that was put to them. The subject then dropped. Lord G. LENNOX presented four petitions from Pet worth and other parts of the county of Sussex, complain ing of the great increase of poor rate., and praying the House to take the subject under its most serious consi deration. Sir C. BURRELL, although he was not an advocate for compulsory measures, thought, if some plan was adopted on the subject, it would be the means of doing great good to the lower classes of society. He concurred entirely with the prayer of the petition, and would give it his most cordial support. After a few words from Lord NUGENT, which were wholly inaudible in the gallery, Colonel EVANS supported the prayer of the petitions, and hoped the House would speedily peas some measure to relieve the distress which prevailed among the agricultural labourers. Mr. BENETT recommended, as the best means of alleviating the distress in the labouring population, a com mutation of tithes, and such a change in the system of taxation as to relieve the industrious classes. After a d esu l tory conversa ti on b e tween Mr. HUNT, Sir C. B URRYLL, and Mr. GILLON, the petitions were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. 11. ROSS presented a petition from the Chamber fora re of Commerce, D un d ee, fo duction of duty on hemp and the raw m ater i a l of linen. The LORD ADVOCATE' moved the third reading of the Scotch Cholera Preventio n 8,11. P a ss d. Mr. HUNT wished to ca ll t h e attention - of Government to a fact which had corns to hi s k now l edge this forenoon. This morning early an individual, w h o h a d be seized n. beenh cholera at Hoxton, had been carri e d from thence in a where hackney coach to Bartholomew's Hospital, the attendant surgeon pronounced i t a case of cholera, but refused to admit him —he was then driven to Abchurch-lane, and from thence to the dispensary in Surrey, where, after being bled, he then jay in extreme danger. He had thus been for two or three hours " hawked" about from the eic.reme north of the city to the Borough. Ile hoped, when this statement was known, that measures would be adopted for the prevention of siinilar occurrences. He could also state that a sailor was brought up in a cabriolet from the lower part of Tooley-street to the Caine dispensary. Alderman VENABLES could state, for the satisfaction of the Hon. Member, that although the 'intend' facts had been as represented, yet the case could not be cholera, as the individual had recovered. Sir R. PEEL hoped that care would be taken that unin tentional injury was not inflicted by such public statements on a large portion of the cairmunlr.. It ...Quid be mach Letter to communicate the number of the coach, and the case generally, to any Member of his Majesty's Government. Lord ALTHORP coincided with the Right Hon. Ba ronet, and state 1 that if any such case were communicated to Government, an investigation would immediately follow. Mr. HUNT said the man had been extremely ill, for at half-past three this afternoon he was not expected to sur vive, so that the Hon. Alderman's logic was not very well founded. Mr. HUME said, the statement made by the Hon. Member for Preston, implied a direct charge that the public Board of Health had failed to supply the requisite receptacles throughout the metropolis that he understood it was their duty to have provided. Some weeks since he was informed by the Chairman of the Board of Health that in every district proper necessaries had been furnished. From the statement of to-night it would appear there must be some mistake with respect to Hoxton, which had no receptacle for cholera patients. Be this as it might, the circumstance of an unfortunate individual in a state of severe illness, having been hawked about the streets in a hackney coach, as this person had been, was of itself bad enough, and he (Mr. Hume) sincerely hoped it was sufficient to induce the Noble Lord opposite and Government to institute enquiries on the subject. Mr. Alderman 'ENABLES put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, supposed to relate to the fees of medical gentlemen called upon to attend cholera patients, but which was not intelligibly heard in the gallery. Lord ALTHORP said he was nut prepared to give an answer to the question. Mr. G. DAWSON entered his protest against a vote of 5001. to Mr. Marshall for making certain statistical tables; and also against a vote of about 9001. to Dr. Bowring for his system of keeping public accounts. These votes had been passed at two o'clock in the morning, when he had not an opportunity of objecting to them. He was sur prised that the Hon. Member for Middl« sex at the time had not opposed them. Had such votes been proposed two or three years ago, he would have resisted them to the utmost. Instead of resisting them now, he said he was willing to con sent to any vote for the sake of Reform. Mr. Marshall must undoubtedly be exceedingly rejoiced at the principle diffused by the question of Reform, as well as Dr. Bowring, for he never saw a system of accounts more boring. The value of Dr. Bowring's claims might be estimated from a single fact, which was indeed a striking testimony to his unerring sagacity and that of his patrons. That gentle man had recommended the French system of public accounts to be adopted in this country, instead of our own bungling and operose method ; for, said he, " the French method of public accounts alone furnishes a check and controul over the managers of the public purse which they cannot possibly break through." Anil yet what was the result of ihat beautiful system of checks and controuls? Simply, that some three or four weeks after Dr. Bowring had bestowed his eulogy upon it, the chief cashier in the French treasury became a defaulter for between 300,0001. and 400,0001.—(Hear, and a laugh.) For 20 years there has been hardly an instance of a defaulter under our own so defective system, and then only for 1,0001. or so. As to a secretary of the treasury's becoming a defaulter for a large sum, it was wholly out of the question. Mr. HUME stated, that with a view of setting the House right,he would move for copies of documents to which those grants referred. The Right Hon. Gentleman out of four estimates had chosen to select only two items, to which he could objec', those of 5001. and 9001., and he (Mr. Hunt) felt exceedingly surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have objected to such small items, who with his colleagues had sanctioned the most extravagant votes while in office. The fact was, the Right Hon. Gentleman only wished to stop the report, in order that the Reform Bill !night be delayed, and he (Mr. Hume) conceived that he was not acting inconsistently in agreeing to those votes, in order that they might get into the Reform Bill on the following day. It was strange that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who had sanctioned an expendi ture of 40,0001. for a noble arch, and had expended 200,0001. without the sanction of Parliament, should now come forward to oppose such small grants as those of NO/. and 500/.—(Hear. ) Lord ALTHORP was ready to admit, with respect to the vote to Mr. Marshall, th ,t the principle of appropri ating any portion of the public money as a reward for in dividual industry, which in itself was productive of emo lument, was bad ; but maintained that the peculiar nature of Mr. Marshall's labours, and their being especially useful to the public in their aggregate capacity, entitled him to some specific remuneration. With respect to the other item, he must say that he did not think Dr. Bowring was overpaid for the services he had performed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had no cause for triumph in the escape of the cashier with a large sum of money, for that was entirely to be attributed to the non-application of cheques, according to the French system, i❑ that individual in stance.—(Hear, hear.) Sir H. PARNELL bore testimony to the merits of Dr. Bowring, whom he considered eminently successful in drawing up accurate reports on a very difficult and com plicated subject. In the two reports on the French mili tary and colonial expenditure he had proved himself parti cularly efficient, and had laboured most zealously in pre pal ing them. His financial system, it should be observed, by no means professed to prevent fraud and defalcation,— it only exposed them to detection whenever they occurred. The plan, such as it was, had occupied the attention of the ablest men in France for thirty or forty years, and he had no doubt that it would be found satisfactory in its applica tion to this country. He had only to add, that he thought the attack of the Right Hon. Gentleman most unjustifi able and uncalled for. Mr. DAWSON adverted to the observations of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, in which be asserted that his (Mr. Dawson's) conduct in the debate on Wednesday was en tirely to be ascribed to his desire to retard the progress of the Reform Bill. This animadversion of that Hon. Gentle man either showed that he had been asleep during the dis cussion to which he alluded (which he believed was not the case), or it furnished another proof of that " obtusity of understanding" which he bad unhappily so often exhibited in that House upon other occasions within the remembrance of all who heard him. Mr. BARING had long been of opinion that the ac counts of all our public departments were in a most wretched condition, and this had been felt not only by the Finance Committee, but by every Committee that had in quired into the subject.—(Hear, hear.) He conceived, therefore, that the public money was well laid out in thus ascertaining the practicability of introducing an improve ment where improvement w so desirable. AFFAIRS OF PORTUGAL. Captain YORKE requested the attention of Ministers to the following paragraph in the Times Newspaper of the 15th instant, announcing the sailing order of Admiral Sar torious, as commander-in-chief of the expedition against the Portuguese Government, set on foot by Don Pedro, for the purpose of asserting the pretensions of his daughter Maria da Gloria to the throne of Portugal :—" Letters from Belleisle of the 10th announce the sailing on that day of the first division of the Portuguese expedition. The following order of the day, addressed more particu larly to the English auxiliaries, was issued by Admiral Sartorius on the occasion :---‘ Order of the day. The Commander-in-chief of the expedition hastens to make known to the seamen and soldiers of the division, that his Imperial Majesty has been pleased to confirm the gift of the equipments which the Vice-Admiral, in his reliance on the well-known highmindedness of the Emperor, had taken upon him to promise. His Majesty has, however, not only ratifi-d the allowance of 555. monthly pay, hut, in order to testify his high opinion of the English seamen and soldiers, especially with regard to those who are under the command of the Vice-Admiral, he, has encreased that pay Ss. a month, during all the time that the Queen's flag shall remain hoisted on their vessels. The Vice-Admiral calls on his shipmates to second his efforts with heart and hand in a caus.r, which, next to that of their King and country, is the most noble that an Englishman can serve —a c.luse laudably undertaken for the purpose of restoring a n august Princess to her throne, of opening the dungeons of thousands of victims, whose only crime has been fidelity to their duty and their oath ; and of enabling Por tugal to regain that constitutional liberty which has so greatly contributed in giving to your own country the so vereignty of the sea., and placing you among the first nations of the world. His iilajesty's intentions are humane and conciliatory, but if they are disregarded, it will be then for us to prove as true Britons, with the help of Providence, that reliance has not in vain been placed in our courage and our arms, for the purpose of succouring the oppressed and procuring the liberation of the inno cent.—Belleisle, Feb. 4." He now wisbedto ask the Noble Lord opposite, whether this same Admiral Sartotius at present held a commission in his Majesty's service? Lord ALTHORP replied, that the officer in question had formerly been in the naval service of Great Britain, but he cou ld not at t h e moment un d erta k e to say w h et h er Just at present he still happened to retain his commission. Mr. ROBINSON should have presumed that Govern ment, as a matter of course, would follow the rule always acted on upon similar occasions. There were very recent precedents, in which British officers had been required to withdraw from foreign service under circumstances pre cisely the same as those in which Admiral Sartorious was placed by his connection with this enterprise. Govern ment had acted very suspiciously throughout this contest between the rival members of the house of litaganza. He hoped they would maintain a bona fide neutrality hence forward. Sir J. GRAHAM made answer, that Captain Sartorius did remain on the balf•pay list, but was at present disqua lified from receiving his half-pay, as he was in the service of a foreign Power.—(Hear, hear.) Colonel DAVIES trusted lie would long remain upon that list, and, as a Reformer, was desirous of seeing liberal institutions introduced into other countries as well as into our own. Sir R. PEEL considered this a case of importance, as by the law of the land any British officer proved to have accepted a commission under a foreign Power was guilty of a misdemeanour punishable by fine and imprisonment. Colonel EVA NS observed, that anv one might prosecute a party under that law, but it by no means followed that the Crown would deprive him of his commission, or en force the penalty. Sir H. HARDINGE maintained that the question of his Gallant Friend was perfectly allowable, as it appeared that Captain Sartorius had acted in direct contravention to an Actof Parliament. Colonel EVANS added, that the employment of Mar shal Beresford in Portugal had not given rise to similar questioning on the part of Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Mr. C. WYNN replied, that in Marshal Beresford's case there was a special licence from Government, which he presumed could not be pro,luced in the present instance by Captain Sartorius.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. CLERK inquired whether Captain Sartorius had obtained leave of absence, because in the letter issued from the Admirality on such occasions there is always an express prohibition forbidding the party to enter foreig❑ service. --(Hear, hear.) Sir J. GRAHAM replied that be had absented himself without leave, and also without receiving any licence from Government. Colonel EVANS asked, whether a certain Major-Ge neral in the King's service had not been in the service of Portugal three months ago ? There was no answer (as far as we could perceive), but laughter ensued amongst the Members of the Opposition. Sir R. PEEL had no personal animosity against Capt. Sartorious, nor did he think there was any necessity fur treating him with harshness, but Government at least could recall him : there was no difficulty in that. ARMY ESTIMATES. The House having resolved into a Committee of Supply, Sir J. HOBHOUSE rose to propose, according to the arrangement sanctioned by the unanimous approval of that House, the army estimates for the quarter of the year end ing the 31st of March last. It certainly was not in his power to promise so large an amount of reduction as had been effected by his Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Admiralty, in the navy department, but he was able to say that since 1820 a very considerable reduction in the charges for the army service had taken place. Notwith standing that the number of f rces, and the persons em ployed in the various departments, was not much greater than at present, and that some new charges were now added, yet on comparing the estimates of 1820 with those of the present year, he found that a decrease of expense to ne less an amount than 684,0001. had taken place. The charge for tie effective service for the present quarter was 896,8311., and for the non-effective service 726,2101. (the charge for Exchequer fees not being included in those items), being a decrease in the present quarter, compared with a quarter of 91 days in the last year, of 15,300/. on the effective service, and an increase of 35,131/. on the non-effective. Before proposing the se parate votes, he thought that it would perhaps be better for him to run over an abstract of each service. The vote he proposed to move for the land forces was 805,9611., being an increase on the present quarter, com pared with the expense for the quarter in last year, of 17,922/. The charge for the staff-officers (exclusive of India) was 30,667!., being a decrease of 463/. ; the charge for the public departments was 25,246!., being a decrease of 728/. The charge for medicines, &c., was 3,0001., being a decre ise of 105/. The charge for gar risons 8,425/., being a decrease of 34/. The charge for the Royal Military College, 991/., being a decrease of 4161. For the Asylum, 4,413/., being a decrease of 581/. ; the charge for the Hibernian Military School 1,3601., being a decrease of 207!. ; and the charge for the volunteer corps, 16,768/., being a decrease of 30,683/. The House would therefore see, that the decrease of the whole of the estimates for the effective services wa■ 15,0001. With respect to the non-effective services, the charges were as follows :—For General Officers, 32,2001., being a decrease of 1,550/. ; for retired full pay, 23,000/., being a decrease of 4,855/. ; for half-pay, &c., 169,6001., being a decrease of 4,850/. ; for foreign haif.pay, 22,425/. being a decrease of 400/. ; for militia retired officers, &c. 6,684/., being a decrease of 109/. ; for widows' pensions, 36,9601., being an increase of 36/. ; for compassionate allowances, 84c. 44,046/., being a decrease of 1,108/. ; for in and out pensioners of Chelsea, &c. 378,5791., being an increase of 44,5831. ; and for superannuations, 12,696/, being a decrease of 6461. There was, therefore, an increase upon the whole of these estimates for the non-effective services, of 35,131/. The first vote to be sub mitted to the Committee was the number of land forces; and he would take the present opportunity of making a few observations with reference to that subject. The House would recollect that in the year 1830, the rank and file amounted to 69,125 men. In the year 1831, however, in consequence of the disturbances in England, it was thought advisable to complete the full establishment of the army, by adding to the effective force 7,261 men. Since that period, it appeared that certain battalions had returned from abroad, whose effective force amounted to 3 256 men, so that upon the whole an effective force of 10,516 men was made available in consequence of the un fortunate state of the country. There was an apparent increase of rank and file of 897 men ; and of 1,005 men of all ranks ; but this increase did not exist in point of fact. The whole of the real increase amounted to 158 men, and the remaining apparent increase was occasioned by the return of a regiment from India• This regiment ' had been maintained by the East India Company during its passage to this country, and was now a whole year returned from India ; and the increase of expense arising upon this head amounted to 18,0001. The Right Hon. ' Baronet concluded by moving a resolution that the num. ber of men employed in the land forces be 89,047. Sir H. IIARDINGE complimented the Right Hon. Baronet on the business-like manner in which he had de tailed the estimates, and he had no doubt, from his know ledge of the Right Hon. Gentleman's ability, that the affairs of the army would be conducted in an efficient manner. The purpose for which he now rose was to re commend the Ministers to introduce their army estimates for the ensuing financial year previous to the 24th of March, as that was the last day beyond which the re enactment of the Mutiny Act could be delayed. Sir H. PARNELL said, that the present were merely supplementary estimates, founded on the estimates of last year, and it was not, therefore, to be supposed that the Right Hon. Baronet could propose any reductions ; but he thought the circumstance of the House being called upon to vote supplies for a quarter, half of which had already passed by, showe.l pretty plainly the necessity for altering the commencement of the financial year. When lie was in office, he certainly had not made any dis tinct propositions of reduction ; hut he had offered sug gestions for a considerable retrenchment, and he knew that there was room for effecting a considerable saving this year in the army expenditure. Colonel TRENCH considered that the arrangements made in the army department by Sir H. Hardinge were so admirable as not to be susceptible of improvement. He, therefore, was no friend to the Right Hon. Baronet's (Sir H. Parnell's) plans of retrenchment. Sir H. PARNELL said it was quite impossible that the Gallant Officer could be aware of the nature of his plans of retrenchment ; and it was therefore somewhat surpris ing that they bad received his condemnation. Perhaps the Gallant Officer judged of his schemes from certain absurd rumours which had lately gone abroad. Colonel TRENCH imput.d no blame to the Right Hon. Baronet; but one of the me.oures which he understood was to be ascribed to the Right Hon. Baronet, and of which be did approve, was the refusing to allow the usual brevet rank on the occasion of the late Coronation. Lord A LTHORP had lately heard many reports respect ing the measures of retrenchment which the Right lion. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell) had intended to propose, none of which, he would venture to say, had the least foundation in fact. With respect to tie brevet rank, the ground on which the Government retused to grant it at the late Co ronation was, because it had been allowed but a short time before. ----- Sir J. BYNG spoke against reducing the amount of the forces. Mr. HUNIE disapproved of the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Hohhouse) in drawing a com parison between the present year and 1820. Did no t the Right Hon. Baronet kno w that cons iderable reduc , ions in the amount of the army had taken place in 1822. 1823, and 1824; that the number of men employed now was 20,000 more than in 1823 ? He cautioned Mi n isters against listening to the a dvice of military gentlemen with respect to the amount of force t be kept up. They were always disposed to increase the army ; but he knew, be fore the country could e xperienc• any reli4, the number of the army must be greatly reduced. He considered it would be greatly advantageous if the Secretary at War also performed the duties of Secretary for the Ordnance and the rest of the military establishments, and placed on the tables the es'imates relating to the whole of the depart. ments together. At present the Secretary of War was made the mere clerk of the Commander-in-Chief, and promotions were made in the army without his know ledge. This ought not to be; and he remembered that, before the French war, the Commander-in-Chief confined himself to his proper duty as an executive officer. But now that officer assumed too much authority, and he thought it would he advisable to break down the whole establishment at the Horse Guards. Certainly the present Commander-in-Chief ought not to be allowed to continne in office any longer. His excellent Friend (Sir H. Par nell) had been dismissed by the Ministers, because he would not vote on the quest on of the Russo-Dutch loan ; hut the Commander-in-Chief was allowed to retain his si tuation, though he voted directly against them on the question of Reform. But, somehow or other, the influence of the Duke of Wellingto❑ seemed still to prevail ; and his Secretary retained his appointment, and held his levies at the Horse Guards. He approved of the conduct of Go vernment in not granting brevet rank on the occasion of the Coronation. There were too many Generals and high officers already ; and it was quite impossible to attend any assembly without meeting a red coat. Sir J. HOBHOUSE, since he had been in office, had seen quite enough to convince him that he should have a sharp debate with the Hon. Member for Middlesex on the subject of the estimates. He found that it would be impossible to carry reduction so far as the Hon. Member desired. Allusion having been made to the absence of brevet promotion on account of the Coronation, he felt it necessary to state, that that measure would have saddled the country with an expense of eleven thousand pounds a year, which, under present circumstances, it was not thought advisable to incur. —(Hear, bear.) An HON. MEMBER contended, that Lord Hill had ad ministered promotion in the army with the strictest im partiality.—(Hear.) Mr. ROBINSON urged Ministers to make up their minds, between the present moment and the period when the annual estimates would be brought forward, to reduce the existing amount of the standing army. Mr. HUNT said, that the Government would never be able to do without a large standing army until every man had a vote for the election of the representatives of the nation. Sir H. HARDINGE said that the Hon. Member for Middlesex stated, that the Commander of the Forces was in the habit of making improper or unnecessary promo tions. The Hon. Member ought to have known that the Secretary of War controuled the Commander-in-Chief, by having possession of the purse. In fact, no . promo tions could take place without his consent.—(Hear.) With respect to the Commander-in• Chief's levees, it was not for his own gratification that he held them, but be cause they were found beneficial to the service. The Hon. Member objected to Lord Hill because he was the friend of the Duke of Wellington. Why did he not object to Sir James Kemp on the same ground ? There was not a distinguished officer i❑ the service who was not the Duke of Wellington's friend.—(Hear, hear.) He bad never heard a more illiberal attack upon any public officer tha❑ that made upon Lord Hill. He never would subscribe to the doctrine that the Commander of the Forces ought to he merely a political instrument in the hands of the Government.—(Hear.) Sir J. BYNG was sure that Government would main tain the present military establishment, if it were neces sary to the welfare of the country. Mr. HUNIE was not surprised at finding military men averse to reductions in the army. In his intercourse with officers, they had always shown themselves disinclined to take part against the Government of the day. He had no personal dislike to Lord Hill, but he thought his Lord ship ought to be removed, on the ground of his being a Member—an influential and powerful Member—of the Government. He blamed the Government, however, more than his Lordship. On the point of promotion he would s nothing more than certain individuals had somehow or other risen in the army. His object was to induce Mini sters to bring down the next estimate to the establishment of 1822, 1823, and 1824. Mr. HUNT had no hopes of abolishing the standing army, since he saw both sides of the House tarred with the same bru.h —(Laughter.) Sq. J. SE RIGHT was not surprised that military officers should object to reductions in the existing force; but, although himself no officer, he confessed he was astonished to see his Hon. Friend the Member fur Middle sex propose any reduction in the present state of the country.—(Hear.) Sir H. HARDINGE referred to his own conduct in Parliament, and to that of other officers who had opposed Ministers on the Reform question, as a proof of the inde pendence of military men. . . Colonel EVANS said a few words which were inaudible. Mr. LEADER thought that 100,0001. spent in im proving the harbours of Ireland would do more good than five times that sum expended upon a military establish ment. As a precautionary measure, however, he con ceived a strong establishment requisite. The vote was then agreed to. The following votes were agreed to without discussion :- 305,961/. fur defraying the charge of the land forces in Great Britain and Ireland. 30,6661. for the general staff officers and officers of the hospitals. 25,2451. for allowances to the principal officers of several military departments, their clerks, deputies, and contingent expenses. 3,0001. for medicines, and surgical materials. On the question that the sum of 8,4241. be granted to defray the charge of his Majesty's garrisons at home and abroad, Mr. HUME objected to the grant, on the ground that half of the persons who received garrison appointments did no duty. He was of opinion that if veteran officers were deserving, it would be better to pension them at once. The vote was agreed to. On the question, that the sum of 9901. be granted to the Royal Military College, Sir J. HOBHOUSE, in answer to an objection of Mr. flume's, said, that the number of the higher class of students was increased, while that of the lower was dimi nished, and that a saving would consequently accrue to the public. The vote was agreed to. 5,7731. was voted to the Royal Military Asylum, and the Hibernian Military School. On the vote being put of 16,7681. to the volunteer corps of Great Britain and Ireland, Sir R. BATESON took occasion to eulogize the ser vices of the Irish yeomanry. Colonel TOR RENS disapproved of a system that placed arms in the hands of a party, for the purpose of coercing the majority of the community. The ♦ote was then agreed to ; as was 4,8001. to defray the charge of Exchequer fees in Great Britain upon issues to be made for effective army services. The sum of 6,683/. 19s. was then granted to defray the charge for reduced local militia adjutants, retired officers of the militia, from the Ist of January to the 31st of March, 1832. The next grant proposed was the sums of 36,9801. to defray the charge of pensions to he paid to the widows of officers of the land forces, from the Ist of January to the 3lst of Match, 1832. Sir A. DALRYMPLE complained of a recent determi nation of the War-office. Formerly, officers in the army thought that when they married, a pension was secured as matter of right to their widows. By a recent regulation of the War-office, it had been made known to the service that officers' widows, possessing a certain amount of pro perty, would not in future be considered as entitled to a pension. By this decision not only would the widows of many officers be deprived of that annuity to which they had always considered themselves entitled, but military men would also be discouraged from ensuring their lives for the benefit of their families, inasmuch as the property, which they secured thereby to their widows on their own demise, would operate as a bar to their receiving the pension, to which they would otherwise be entitled. Sir J. HOBHOUSE complained that the lion. and Gallant Member had not stated this matter quite cor tterecommendationrantig these of p t reedy. Before 1830 th e word " proper" was inserted in warrants Committeesince time,wtlhiaicthsat up up%n i " auperannuations, the word " pr o p er" had been erased, and the words " wealthy circumstances had been sub st it ute d in the warrants. The stostitution of these w or d s h ad pensions ions; given rise to a question, whether the Secretary at War had a right to inquire into the amount of any widow's income who desired to be put on the army pension list. Hi s Hight Hon. predecessor in the \Var.office (Sir H. Parneli) yrs of opinion that he had a right to institute such inquiry. Still, though such was the case, there were only four instances in which a refusal to grant the pension had been given. The first was in the case of a widow, who enjoyed a clear income of 1,856/. a•year ; the next was in the case of a widow, who had 63U/. a-year ; the third was in the case of a widow, who had 4081. a-year ; and the fourth was in the case of a widow, who refused to give any account of her income. He thought that it would be very difficult to draw up a scale by- which to det•-rmine, when a widow having children should, and when she should not, receive a pension. He was of opinion that no general rule could be devised for such cases, and the decision of them must, he thought, rest in all future years with the Secretary of War for the time being. Sir H. PARNELL, when he held the office of Secretary at War, had consulted the best informed persons in his department as to what had been the usual course of pro ceeding with the application of officers widows for pen sions, and that be had formed his decision upon the in formation which he had so received. In coming to the decision which he had formed on this subject, he assured the House that be had been particularly desirous not to do any thing that was either unjust or severe to the widows of those gallant men who had shed their best blood in the service of the country. . . _ Mr. C. WYNN concurred with his Right Hon. Friend in thinking that it was impossible to lay down any general rule stating when these pensions should be granted, and when they should not. He contended that the application of an officer's widow for a pension ought not to be con sidered as a claim of right, but as an appeal to his Ma jesty's bounty. Under such circumstances, it appeared to him to be absolutely necessary to inquire into the amount of income enjoyed by each applicant for the King's bounty. Sir H. HARDINGE during the time that he was in office had acted on the principle laid down by his Right lion. Friend. He could not, however, admit that the distressed circumstances of an officer's widow formed the sole foundation for granting her a pension. It was the services performed by her husband in his life-time that gave her a claim after his death for some remuneration. He was perfectly aware that nothing was more unpopular in the army than the requisition which compelled every widow to declare the amount of her income upon affidavit at the time she made application for a pension. The Se cretary at War was generally at war with every one else in the army—(A laugh)—in consequence of the numerous applications which he had to examine and to refuse. In answering applications of this kind, it was impossible to lay down any general rule, as each case differed from its fellow in several circumstances. Still the Secretary at War ought not to be too strict in deciding upon claims of this na ture : on the contrary, he ought to hold the scales fairly, and to decide impartially between the public and the unfortunate applicants for these pensions. After a few words in explanation from Sir A. DAL RYMPLE, the grant was agreed to. On the vote for 42,047/. for allowances on the Com- I passionate List, Royal Bounty, and Pensions, &c., to offi cers for wounds, being read by the Chairman, Sir A. DALRI MPLE said, that a letter had ap peared in the Times Paper of Friday last, signed St. G. Lyster, upon this subject. He knew nothing of the case, but he wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Hob house) whether he would make an inquiry into it. Sir HENRY HARDINGE would say but a few words on this subject. This was a case of which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would find in the War-office a minute in tLe hand-writing of him (Sir H. Hardinge). In that the whole case of Captain Lyster would be seen, and he Sir H. Hardinge) would he at all times ready to answer any question that might be proposed with regard to it. The vote was then agreed to. O❑ the grant for 378,5791. Is. 7d. for the charge of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals, and the in and out pensioners of the same, Colonel SIBTHORPE said that it was a shame to take a shilling in the pound from poor soldiers, and he hoped an end would be put to the system. Sir J. HOBHOUSE said that this, though an appa rent, was not a real, deduction from the pensions of these poor men ; on the contrary, it afforded some, though a very inadequate, return for the service dons to them.— Formerly pensioners were allowed to borrow money, which they could only get on very disadvantageous terms; whereas now, they were paid the half-year in advance, and saved from the usurious interest they had heretofore paid. If it V 749 taken into consideration how many of them died be tween the commencement of the half-year and the day when the pension became due, it would be found that the Government was a loser, and that there wa■ no want of charity in the deduction. The vote was agreed to. _ _ - 12,6951. 15s. id. for superannuations, and 3,6501. for Exchequer fres on the payments for the non-effective service, were then voted. Sir J. HOBHOUSE then observed, that he had ple.sure in mentioning to the House that he had heard from the medical gentlemen who had witnessed the course of the cholera in the north of England, that not one soldier had been attacked by the disease. He would also state, that a place for which Government had been in treaty was taken for the Guard., in order to secure so valuable a branch of the public service from any danger of this disorder. ARMY EXTRAORDINARIES. Mr. RICE then brought forward the army extraordi nariea. He intended to take a general vote for the three months, and proposed that a sum of 300,0001. be voted for this service. Mr. HUME said, that the form of these accounts ren dered them totally unintelligible. He would not ask his Right Hon. Friend for any explanation of them, because he knew it must be out of his power to give it. Tl:ere was the Colonial-office, and the Admiralty, and why not ar range all these under their proper heads? Mr. RICE had always objected to the form of the ac counts, as there were a great many of the most incon gruous items introduced under this head : a Government ship for Newfoundland, and Indian presents for Canada, ap peared strangely in an account like this, and so also did the expenses of the Swan River establishment. With re spect to these they formed a large and increasing burden. The Governor, Captain Stirling, had been empowered to draw bills on the Treasury at home for any stores that might be required. He had done so, but the Government had now sent out a commissary to superintend the provid ing of 'tores, and act as a cheek with respect to these bills. As a general change was contemplated in the form of these accounts, it would not be right on one point to impede this vote by proposing an alteration. Colonel TORRENS said, that if the proper principle of colonization had been attended to with respect to Swan River, as it bad been in regard to the American colonies, this country would not have been put to any expense. After a few words from Mr. RUTHVEN, Mr. W. WHITMORE asked why this country should be called on to pay money for a colony which seemed to have been establisked only because a private individual wished to settle in a part of Australia. Mr. DIXON asked how long it was likely that these payments would continue? Mr. RICE could not give a definitive answer. The Governor, as he had before stated, was allowed to draw bills on the Government at home, and upoa that principle he had hitherto acted. This would not, however, con tinue, as a commissary for this especial purpose had been sent out. There was, however, a prospect that these extraordinary supplies would not be longer wanted. He expected a report from Captain Stirling upon the subject very soon, but at all events it would not be prudent to act hastily on this point, as great interests might be injured by so doing. Mr. HUME observed, that a pledge had been given at the time the colony was formed, that it should be no expeace to this country. Ministers should adhere to their pledge. GOULBURN had given no such pledge, and a proof of it was, that a❑ esti►aate of the expence bad been laid before Parliament. Mr. HUME said, that when the largeness of the grant of 270,000 acres to one individual was adverted to in the House, it had been replied that the grant was made on condition that the country should sustain no expence. The estimate referred to had been brought in afterwards, Such a paltry colony as this to draw 24,0001. Sir G. MURRAY concurred in the doctrine that a Minister should adhere to a pledge, but that did not refer to an imaginary pledge. Mr. HUME repeated that a pledge had been given, as an answer to the rem tik about the 270,000 acres. Sir G. MURRAY said that the pledge alluded to by the Hon. Member was, that the country should incur no charge in sending out the emigrants ; it had nothing to de v‘ith the establishment for the colony. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that this colony had been funded on a wrong principle. He acquitted the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Murray) of any intention to do what was not right ; but the course nursued of giving large grants of land to individuals was pregnant with mischief. He thought it alio a very doubtful policy to people the large continent of Australia with convicts. He hid un derstood that it had not been intended to make the Swan River a convict colony, and be regretted to hear that it had become so. Sir G. MURRAY said that there never had been an intention to make it a convict colony, and if it had become so it was since he was out of office. The principle laid down at the formation of the settlement was, that it never should become a convict colony. With respect to large grants of land to individuals in old colonies, it was no doubt impolitic, but in new colonies it was only by making large grants that individuals could be induced to carry out emigrants. Lord ALTHORP was not aware of the grounds upon which the Hon. Member bad stated that the Swan River had become a convict colony. Alr LABOUCHERE had understood that application had been made to that eff-ct by the settlers, and that the application had been granted. Ile spoke only front an im pression on his own mind. Mr. HUME called the attention of the Committee to the large sum voted for Ceylon. There was a sum of 95,000/. more than the receipts for 1931 to IIP defrayed by this country. This fine colony was capable of supporting itself ; but it was the most extravagant colony belong ing to the Crown. There should be regular colonial vouchers for the expenditure, and a debtor and creditor ac count. Mr. RICE said that the apparent large expenditure was occasioned by the redemption of debentures of a debt con tracted in the Canadian war. The civil establishment was defrayed by the island, and better arrangements were now made for rendering the revenues more productive. Colonel TORRENS protested, in the name of the people of England, against this country being burdened with the civil expenditure of any colony. Mr. RICE said that the Hon. Member's protest was un necessary, as far as regarded Ceylon, for this country was not called upon to pay any part of the civil establishment of that colony. Mr. HUNT said that the protest was useless, for the money would be voted. Mr. HUME inquired of the Noble Under-Secretary for the colonies, whether the statement of colonial expenditure would soon be laid before the House. Lord HOWICK said, there were considerable difficulties in preparing an account which was perfectly new, and of which great part was to be procured from the colonies. It WAS his intention soon to present one as complete as pos sible for this year, and a more complete one next year. Mr. BTJRGE said, that with respect to each colony pay ing its own expenses, he begged to say that the West India colonies did pay the whole of their civil and eccle siastical, and part of their military expenses. Jamaica de frayed the whole of its civil and ecclesiastical establishments (except the salary of the Bishop), and 140,000/. of its military expenditure. Colonel DAVIES said that there was not one colony which was not a heavy burden to the mother country. In the paper in his hand he found large items for the service of Jamaica. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS observed, that it was a mis • take to suppose that the military expenditure of the colo nies was for their service; it was for the general policy of the country. 398,781/. for the charge of the Commissariat Depart ment generally. 13,2041. for the charge of half-pay Commissariat offs. cera, and 83,3251. for the charge of Commissariat officers for tLe ensuing year, were then agreed to. 195,0001. for the charge of certain salaries, pensions, &c., hitherto paid out of the Civil List, but for which no provision has been provided for out of the Civil List, was the next vote. Lord ALTHORP said that the present vote might be considered in the light of a mere vote of credit for the quarter ending the sth of April, 1832. It had been his intention to have brought in a Bill to provide for the pre sent vote, but the pre,sure of other more urgent business had hitherto prevented him. He hoped, however, to do so before the period of the present vote should have expired. The resolution was agreed to. The House resumed.— Report on Monday. On the motion of Lord ALTHORY, it was agreed to that the House should at its rising adjourn till Monday. On the motion of Lord Alnonr, the Lords' Amend ment to the Cholera Prevention Bill was agreed to. IRISH SUB-LETTING ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. STANLEY moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on this Bill. A long discussion took place as to the inexpediency of proceeding with a measure of so much importance to Ire land at that late hour, during which Mr. H. Grattan, Mr. Leader, Mr. Sheil, Lord Killeen, and other Irish Mem bers urged the Right Hon. Secretary to postpone the mo tion so as to afford a full discussion. The discussion ended in the postponement of the Com mittee to Monday. On the motion of Mr. F. BARING, the House went into a Committee on the Malt Drawback Acts. The Hon. Gentleman observed that the former reduction in the duty on spirits had proved not only advantageous in a fiscal point of view, but had materially tended to the prevention of smuggling in Scotland. After some further remarks, which the general noise in the House made for the most part unintelligible, he concluded by moving that the present allowance on every gallon of spirits brewed from malt in Scotland should henceforward cease and determine, and that in lieu thereof another should be imposed, but to what amount we were unable to learn. Captain GORDON advocated the continuance of the existing system, which had been adopted on the recom mendation of a commission, and bad hitherto produced the most satisfactory results. Mr. GILLON contended, that the change was injudi cious ; he looked upon it as a bonus to spirits of an inferior quality, which would increase the consumption of an un wholesome beverage, and necessarily conduce to the de• moralization of the people. Colonel CONOLLY urged, that Ministers should en courage legal distillation in Ireland, if, from ne better mo tive, at least for sake of the revenue. Mr. DIXON said that the measure would be carried by the tneie numerical strength of Irish Members, who had forced it on the Chancellor of the Exchequer without al lowing him to deliberate on it. He should oppose the al teration by every means in his power. Sir G. CLERK supported the proposition. Mr. W. CAMPBELL, and Mr. I.IPKENzta opposed it. Lord ALTHORP begged to assure the Hon. Member for Glasgow that it was upon deliberate consideration and conviction be proposed this measure. Looking at it as a question of revenue, affecting• the revenue of the country at large, he thought it was an alteration that ought to be made. After a protracted conversation, in which Mr. Cal laghan, Mr. Warburton, Mr. C. Fergueson, Mr. Shaw, and Mr. Gillon took part, the gallery was cleared fur a division. No division, however, took place, and the resolution was agreed to. The House resumed.—Report on Monday. REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON IRISH TITHES. Air. STANLEY brought up the report of the Select Committee on the,Tithes of Ireland, and moved " that it lie on the table." Mr. SIIEIL enquired whether it would not be read? Mr. STANLEY answered, that he meant merely to move that the petition should lie on the table, and be printed. On the recommendation of the Committee ulte rior proceedings would be founded, which of course would be fully discussed. Mr. H. GRATTAN said, that so far as he knew of the report it was unjust, unsatisfactory, and premature. He contended that Church property should be appropriated to its original purposes, the chief of which was, the relief of the poor. By taking that course, three emergencies would he avoided—namely, the introduction of poor laws into Ireland, which was a matter of very questionable policy ; next, the enforcement of the Vestry Bill; and lastly, the infliction of church -rates. The report, after a few words from Mr. RUTHYSN, wall ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The House adjourned at a Quarter after Two o'clock. With regard to the origin of the cholera, we believe that there are few well-informed persons who are not thoroughly agreed. It originally broke out in India after a year of famine, in the course of which many thou sands died; and if our memory serves us right, it was then denominated the "paddy fever," or the " rice fever ;" the quality of the rice, which forms the principal food of the natives of Ifindostan, being exceedingly bad— the grain blue and watery, and wearing in every respect the appearance, as it no doubt also possessed, the noxious qualitits of frosted grain in this country. This fact, we believe, is not generally known, and has only just occurred to us as a matter which we had almost forgotten. It will serve, however, to furnish an additional corroboration of the fact, that those who are poorly fed, or who possess weakly constitutions, are most liable to the attacks of the disease; and that those, on the other hand, who are dif ferently situated have but very little to fear.—Morning Ad 'riser. As two of the Officers of the 98th regiment stationed at Do wlais, Glamorganshire, were on their road to the barracks on Sunday evening se'nnight, they were attacked by four ruffians armed with pistols and bludgeons , at a place midway between Merthyr and Dowlais, known by the name of the Red Gate. " Your money or your , life," said the villains. " Such as I have I give unto thee, replied the officer to whom this demand was addressed ; and suiting the action to the word he dealt one of the highway- omen a tremendous blow on the head. the other officer, as a ruse de guerre, turned his horse round, shouting with all his might, " be firm R— assistance is at hand"—which alarmed the villains, that they took to flight, having first fired two shots. One of the officers (who has been in several engagements), heard the balls whistle by his ear• It is feared that one of the horses will lose the sight of is.l eye by the ill usage it received from the ruffians.-81,rezes iiiiry Chronicle. INQUEST ON ALICE BERRY, THE WIDOW WHO WAS VIOLATED AND MURDERED.--The adjourned inquest at Bolton, upon this unfortunate woman, was held on Wednesday last. Nothing beyond the facts detailed last week transpired. Time Jury brought in a verdict 01 •' Manslaughter" against the six men in custody. Witb t h e e xc e ption of two, all the prisoners are young me' They treat the matter with g„ at indifference.