The Sun. — London, England, 1822-04-23 00:00:00

Ilea House to watch aver the rising greatness of Ireland, and so seek a remedy for these evils of which she complained. For '' the rising greatness of Ireland," he kpew net to what such word; could be applied. Ile did not understand how they could 'be uied, unless it was in the manner of the sarcastic remark made by a peasant in she Low Countries, who, when Phillip wee losing all his conquests, had said, ." the more that was taken from them, greater they were proved." In no other sense could he understand what had been said of " the riein~tgreaelese of Ireland." He could comprehend what was rosent icy the evils which then required a , remedy. He hoped the Noble Lord was by this time prepared to come forward w;th-that remedy , which be thought was called for in 1816.- -1k knew he should be told that the person now at the head of the .I:eel' Government had been but a short time there. He had, however, he must say, it appeared to him, been there long enough to form a pretty correct notion,- with his previous "knowledge of the subject, of the real state of the case.— itut all the Members of the Administration were not new to the subject. The Secretary of State for the Home De partment had long been Chief Secretary for Ireland, and ealiet be well acquinted with the situation of the country.— This subject had been brought forward else-Where, and the head of the Treasury had replied to a question.pot o him oh the af -Sane "ef Ireland, " that the tithe question', the should speak on teat presently) " was under the consideration 'of Government, end tie had no difficulty in saying that the''•right to recover tither was the same in England as in Ireland, yet the situation of the two countries was such, that that was practicable in England which was impracticable in Ireland, and therefore some mea sure to correct the evil appeared necessary." This had been said in 1816. He hoped the child which was then an infant had now gained years of discretion, and that something to re medy the grievances which had so long been the subjects of eemeelaint would e el last he done. What he should propose to n4-hi would be an Address, which came to this--that the Legis liteare, having yielded to the Government three months since • those powers of coercion which they had considered to be netes:/ery to suppress subordination and outrage, they now 'felt themselves called upon to adopt measures of concilia tien. and relief, with a view of raising the population of Ire :awed from its present wretched and degraded state. He, for his own part, considered with his Right Honourable Friend, the NI ember for Dublin, that exile and death were not the only instruments which a Government should use to sustain its au c` but they were rather to be regarded as miserable ex nedients the use of which , betrayed the absence of all that de • -served the name of GoVernment. On this principle he would act, -end having proved himself ready on an extraordinary emergency • to arm the Government with powers stronger than'those en - rrested to them by the ordinary laws, he now desired to shew that' these were not to be considered as a part of the system, • but as a departure from the system to be laid down for the Government of Ireland, not as the rule of Government (God forbid that it ever should be!) but as an exception from ohe ,rule. The country' had felt, and he hoped was by this time convinced of, the steady determination of the Govern ment—of the Legislature, and he , hoped of every Member in that House, to punish outrage and insurrection. It was now fit that they should look to the evils which beset the country, and endeavour to supply a remedy, where a reme dy was necessary. This he wished to declare, and also to set forth that it was their object to adopt with respect to Ire land a mild and equitable system of law which could alone produce that change in the minds of the people which should lift them to that state in point of moral habits which was inse parable from good government, and without which no good government could exist. If he could suppose that that House m legislating for Ireland might be operated upon by any selfish motives, he could shew them that in proportion as Ireland had declined, the demand for English manufactures had fallen off. As taxation in Ireland•had been augmented, the call for English goods had diminished, because those who were formerly consumers ceased to be so, as they had no longer the means of paying. He now came to consider the rights of the Church. For these no man could have a greater respect than he had. He, had he been in Parliament, as certainly he was not at the time of the Union, would never have consented to such an adjustment with respect to certain tithes, which was then proposed. But while anxious to protect the rights of the Church, he was not content that the rights of the people should , go for nothing. How did it happen that infinitely more was , taken from the people as Sithes than went to the Church ? There was a perpetual contention between the tithe farmers and the wretched paupers, from whose food, of whatever de eeription, infinitely more was taken than ever found its way to the Clergy. Before he concluded he could not but declare :-it to be his opinion that that change must be made in the penal code which should admit every class of subjects to a just participation in the blessings 'of the British Constitution.— On this corner stone he would say, whatever was to be clone -for the relief of Ireland, ought to be founded. He did not say that this alone would suffice to remove all the evils com plained of. It was inconceivable that grievances which were the growth of centuries, springing from that horrible code which was not a system of law, but a system opposed to all Jaws human and divine, which arrayed in deadly opposition father against son, brother against brother, and friend against friend. It was inconceivable that evils so deeply rooted could at once be removed by any change that might be devised. He - could not say such an effect would be produced , by reforming the penal code, but this he would say, that was the basis on which their measures for the relief of Ireland ought to be grounded. He knew that it lied been tauntingly said, the vices • imputed to the population of Ireland justified the coercion to which they were subjected. But how, he would ask, did it happen that these imputed vices attached to them only on their s own soil, and were not found in connection with the Irish cha racter elsewhere ? The question was easily answered. It was because in Ireland that penal code was in force, which did not extend to other parts. That systene which set father against • son, and brother against brother, was not felt elsewhere, and the natural feelings of benevolence and good will which g lowed as warmly in an Irish heart as in that of any human being, were then called fairly into play.h-Those who doubted this knew little of the Irish character. The address with which he way about to conclude, though couched in terms as temperate" . as could be used, was, he understood, to lee put aside as not proper to be adopted at this moment. Such had been the lan guage held through the last two-and-twenty years. It had al ways been said the-right time had not yet arrived—that the at tempt to relieve ought to be put off till to-morrow. He hoped ' tide House would brook no longer delay, for that to-mor mw never would arrive:; if the Legislature did not interfere on behalf of Ireland till the Government called on them to do so. The Right Honourable Baronet concluded by submitting the following motion : "-'hat an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, to represent that the melancholy details contained in his Majesty's rracious Speech from the Throne, and the documents laid be e,rie us at the opening of the Session of Parliament respecting es internal disquiet of considerable districts of 'lreland, oblige us to consider the state of that extensive and valuable part of the United Kingdom as most distressing and afflicting to the Legislature, and dangerous in an extreme degree to the well beartg of the empire. , " That under circumstances of daring insubordination to the laws, atrocious outrage and insurrection, the Legislature deemed it to he its first duty to arm the Executive Government with all the powers which were considered requisite to punish outrage, • to suppress insurrection, and to restore its accustomed and sa lutary energy to the administration of constitutional law. " We trust that the confidence placed by Parliament in the , Exettutive Government of Ireland will be found to have been justified by the mild and temperate, yet firm exercise of these extraordinary powers, and calculated to produce most beneficial present results. " That having thus provided for this calamitous emergency, with reference to its immediate pressure, we feel ourselves now called upon to look to the greet ulterior object, of a progressive and permanent amelioration of the condition and moral habits of the people. " Decidedly impressed with a conviction of the alarming con- , sequences which 'must result from a longer _continuance of the disorganised state of Ireland, which has compelled the frequent recurrence of-applications to Parliament for a suspenston of • constitutional law, and feeling the serious responsibility which must attach on the Ministers of the Crown and on this House, - from longer delaying to examine fully and effectually into the causes of that disorganization, we desire to assure his Majesty of the zealous co-operation of this House in the immediate pursuit of this most desirable object, and in perfecting such a system of remedial measures as may be recommended by his Majesty to secure to that portion of the United Kingdom the ueintsrrupted protection of mild and equal laws, and under their benign and salutary influence to effect that valuable im provement in the -condition of the people, which is indispen sably connected with the best interests and prosperity of - the State." Mr. GOULBURN said, he rose with great embarrassment, on a subject so dif fi cult and important, and the more so as he had been but recently connected with the Government of the country to which the motion referred, while he felt the inferio rity of his talents to those of the Right Honourable Batonet who made the motion. He felt it therefore necessary to claim the indulgence of the House while he made some observations on what had fallen from the Right Hon: Bart. whose example he would follow in not trespassing long upon their time. With respect to the question itself, he believed he should not err in - stating the object of the Right Honourable Mover, as well as the flew of the House, to be, that the motion sh ould rather promote a discussion on the affairs of Ireland, than that the Address itself should be carried. It was not necessary to spend much time on the facts on which the arguments were founded ; nobody was ignorant of the unfortunate and lamentable disc turbances which had occurred in Ireland ; nor need he dwell upon the wise measure of Parliament by granting extraordi • u s sry powers to the Executive for .their suppression, which powers, he could assure the House, were exercised, as the Right Honourable Baronet seemed to allow„with moderation, and not without fi rmness. He could also assure the House, that Go vernment was disposed to inquire into the nature of the evils.— He would also admit that those,extraordinary ,measures were aiot to be the rule of Government. They had the higher duty to perform of ascertaining the real ground of the , disorders and their remedy ; but he could not go the length of the Resolutions on this point, and allow that whatever measures were necessary to effect a permanent cure,of those evils, the present was the time for entertaining such a proposition. It did not appear to him that the House ought to adopt the Resolutions, even if they were in every part true. This was not Parlianientary practice.—lf he gave to the motion the simple meaning which the words conveyed, it was for an Address instructing the Crown in the duties of Government. It was no great compliment to the . Government of Ireland that such instruction was necessary,— it was no compliment to them to suppose that they were eo destitute of knowledge as to be told that it was not only neces sary to punish crime but to seek out the cause. But the mo tion went somewhat further. Every one must know that the object of such Resolutions was to prove that a Government so advised by the House was supposed to have hitherto neglected the performance of its duties. He must positively deny that the present Government of Ireland were at all liable to the im putation which the motion of the Right Hon. Baronet was cal culated to cast upon them. If that Government had been long employed in the administration of Irish affairs—if they had had a full period for the consideration of all the topics which the Right Hon. Baronet had mentioned, and of many others which it was necessary to consider, then, indeed, he wculd ad mit that there Might, be some ground for doubting tither their. willingness or their capacity to enter into the investiZation which was imperatively demanded of them. But he begged to impress on the House the short period which the actual Go vernment of Ireland had been in power. They had been in the exercise of their authority for little more than three months, and they were now called upon at once to remedy the evils of centuries, or to submit to the censure conveyed in such an Ad dress as that proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. Such a course was not one calculated to animate the Irishllovernment in their exertions. Let it also be remembered that the ques tion which the present Government of Ireland were called upon so suddenly to decide was one involving the permanent inte rests of that country, that it was one with which all preceding Governments had found it impracticable to deal, that it was one which, according to the Right Honourable Baronet's own acknowledgment, was replete with intricacy and diffi culty. That intricacy and , that difficulty had indeed been I abundantly evinced in the fruitless attention which farmer Go vernments had bestowed . = the subject, and in the very slow steps Which had been taken by those Governments towards the removal' of the evils,-the existence of which was on all sides ac knowledged.- In that view of the subject, he would therefore again appeal to the House whether or not the present Govern ment, which had not been in power for more than three months, or rather for more than seven weeks (for that hail been the ac tual duration of their authority could be expected at once to remedy evils, the cure of which former Governments, with equal anxiety and with considerable diligence, had, during the long period of their existence, found it difficult, and, indeed, irnpos sible to accomplish. But if this were not considered a suffici ent answer to the Right, lion. Baronet's proposition, he had another and a more serious ground on which to rest his opposi tion to that proposition. Whatever opinion Hon. Gentlemen might entertain as to any particular government ; whether they might think that government deserving of censure or of appro bation, he thought that they must all agree with him, that to take a moment of great public difficulty, to take a,' moment at which all that could be depended upon for the preservation of the laws was the authority of the government to whom the execu tion of those laws was confided, to take such a moment for the purpose of telling the people who were governed that their go vernors were not entitled to the confidence of Parliament, would be a proceeding fraught with consequences, the extent of the danger of which could be fully appreciated only by those who were familiar with the actual condition and feelings of the peo ple of Ireland at the present moment. It was idle to-suppose for a moment that the people of Ireland would remain ignorant, of the proceedin g s of Parliament on this question. The Irish were gifted witha quickness of apprehension which probably excelled that of any other people in the world ; they were per fectly capable of estimating the object of the Right Hon. Bart.'s motion • and if by assenting to it the House of Commons should show that they had withdrawn their confidence from the existing Government, lie wished to ask whether it was probable that such a step would render the people of Ireland better inclined to pay that deference to the Government which was indispensible to the due exercise of their authority for the ge neral good ? the Right Hon. Baronet appeared to attribute the evils which had been so long desolating Ireland to three main causes—the first, the long misgovernment of that country ; the second, the large revenue raised in it ; the third, the sys tem of tithes. The Right Honourable Baronet had superadded another cause—the Roman• Catholic disabilities. To speak first of that point, 'which was the last touched upon by the Right Hon. Bart.—the Roman Catholic Question—he was ready most distinctly to declare his opinion that it was a question fully entitled to a separate discussion in Parliament. It was too im portant a subject to be treated incidentally, and with a host of other topics. It was a question affecting not Ireland merely, but the whole empire.—(Hear, hear !)—lt was a question to be decided, on a full and serious consideration of the condition and claims of the Protestant on the one hand, and of the Catholic on the other. Whenever that question should be brought forward, would be the fit time for himself and for others to declare their sentiments upon it, whether in favour of a continuance of the present system, or in favour of any other system to be adopted in substitution of the present. But with the recent and existing disturbances in Ireland, he must say that he thought the Catho lic question, important as it was, had nothing whatever to The result of all the inquiries which he had made on the sub ject (and he could assure the House that he had missed no op portunity of inquiry), was to sdtisfy him that the disturbances of. Ireland in no way originated or depended on the settlement of the Catholic question. It was certainly true that, in the progress of those disturbances, there might have been indica tions of religious feeling on the part of those who were engaged in them. Th e fact being, that the lower classes were generally Catholic, and the higher classes generally Protestant; it was very natural that those who saw the former leagued and con spiring against the latter, and who at the same time saw that the one class was Catholic and the other Protestant, should erroneously assign religious di ff erences as the cause of the dis turbance, instead of those real motives which were lurking in the minds of the agitators. With respect to the long misgovern ment of Ireland, he was by no means disposed to deny what every one -who knew any thing of the history and condition of Efeland wasyerfectly aware of, that the early misgovernment of that country, or rather the course which was adopted on its con quest, was one of the main causes of all the evils that had since occurred. The conquest of Ireland had been conducted on prin ciples more adverse to the happiness of the people, than any event of p a similar nature that had _Ter occurred in the history of the world. No attempt had' been made to conciliate the conquered, or to amalgamate them with the conquerors. On the 'contrary, the policy which had been pursued was to keep the two parties distinct and separate ; thereby laying the foundation of that bitter animosity which had been handed down from father to son, and which at that very moment pervaded the minds of the great body of the Irish peasantry. In support of that opinion, he need only refer the House to those domestic and familiar songs and tales in which the Irish peasant continued to harp with fondness on the period when the English name was un known in Ireland, and when Ireland Was the glory of the world, superior to all the countries by which she was surround ed. To that very moment, tile penduct which had been pur sued on the conquest of Ireland was referred to in that country as a just ground for hatred of the existing Government. The next cause to which the Right Honourable I3art. attributed the disturbances in Ireland was, the amount of revenue demanded from that country. But in the course of his speech, the Right Honourable Bart. hail afforded an answer to his own argument. The Right Hon. Baronet first contended that Ireland had been too highly taxed at the Union ; that to pay two sevenths of the expenditure of the empire was beyond her ability ; and that this severe taxation had driven the landed proprietors out of the coun try, and had thereby entailed on the great mass of the Irish po pulation the miseries which they were enduring. But in the pro gress of his argument, the Right Hon. Bart. admitted, that al though, by the Act of Union, it was provided that Ireland should contribute two seventeenths to the expenditure of the empire (which was now allowed on all hands to be more than she was able to do), yet that this country had since taken on herself the debt of Ireland, by which proceeding Ireland had, in fact, been actually called upon for no more than one-seventeenth instead of two-seventeenths. In answer to the assertion of the Right Hon. Baronet, that the severe taxation in Ireland had driven the Irish Gentlemen to this country, he' would merely call the recollection of the House to the amount of the taxa tion in this country during the wsr. Without entering into any argument as to the amount of the taxation in Ireland, without inquiring whether it was too severe or not, without considering whether it might or might not have produced much 4erious in jury and oppression—he would merely ask, whether at a period when the rate of taxation in this country was incalculably greater than the rate of taxation in Ireland, it was probable that any man would fly from the one country in which the taxes were comparatively light, to take refuge in another country where they were so positively burdensome ? He therefore felt it impossible to understand in what way the amount of taxation in Ireland had occasioned the absence of the landed proprietors of that country. The last cause to which. the Right Honour able Baronet had ascribed the existing state of things in Ireland was, the system of Tithes. On that question he would say, as he had already said of another great question, that it was so intricate, so extensive, had so many bearings, and was attended by so many difficulties, that it might well require a distinct and separate discussion by Parliament. Ne presumed, from the short and succinct ttiotle'Ari'whielr , the 'Right I Hotetittiable Beronet treated that part of the subject, that he entertained h .similar opinion upon it. The Right Honourable Baronet said that, in considering the rights of the church, they must not forget the rights of the people. Undoubtedly Parliament ought impartially to weigh' both thoSe interests. But it was a subject that required much and deep corieideradon. It ought never to be forgotten, in whatever light' the question of tithes (whether in this country or in Ireland} was viewed, that they formed a portion of the pro perty of the country, and that, . whatever principle Parliament applied to the question of tithes, they might be subsequently called upon to apply to other -descriptions of property. As to the intervention of a third person between the payer and the re ceiver of tithes forming a ground for invading the rights of the Church, be begged leave to ask those Hon. Gentlemen who were connected with Ireland, if a similar intervention did not ,exist with reference to other descriptions of property ? Few of the owners of land in Ireland held immediate posses sion. There was, with respect to land, as with respect to tithes, the intervention of a third person, whose agency had the effect of enhancing the charge to those who had to pay, and diminishing the proceeds to those Who had to receive. Parliament, therefore, would do well to recollect that the same practice existed with reference to other property as with reference to tithes, andto pains before they commenced a course of change which, in its progress, might involve the country in confusion 'greater than'any that had existed at any former period. He had felt it his duty to make those general observations upon a subject, the difficulties and embarrassments of which were very sensibly felt by the Government of Ireland ; but he must' also say that he did not consider the question of tithes ti form any material cause of the existing disturbances in Ireland. He certainly knew that in the notices and denuncia tions to whit+ he had already alluded, tithes were specified as a source of grievance ; but so was the rent of land, so was the levy, ing of taxes, so was the salary of the priests, so was every thing in the shape of payment by which the executive authority of the Government was to be maintained. The fact was, that the mate rials of disturbance in Ireland had been growing ever since the termination of the war. In that country, as in this, every means had been adopted to light the flame of insurrection among the inferior classes of the people; and, in furtherance of that design, the subject of tithes had been enumerated among the grievances of' the people ; not so much because it was a real grievance, as because it suited the purpose of the agitators so to characterize it. He would not trespass longer on the patience of the HouSe. It would be remembered that the period at which the existing Government of Ireland arrived there was not the most auspi cious. The Country was involved in disturbances more serious than any that had for a long time existed: In fact it was in open insurrection and rebellion. Whatever dispOsition, there fore, the Government had to enter deeply into. the causes of the existing evils, and their probable remedy, it was their para mount duty, in the first place, to turn, their attention to the means of suppressing those turbulent manifestations which could not be permitted to continue with the slightest regard to the safety of the'country. It was true that in some points violence had been put down. But it was not to be supposed that because the disturbances did not rage in Limerick and in Cork so fiercely as formerly, that those counties were in a state of perfect tran quillity.. He was sorry to say, that although there was a partial calm, there were such strong indications of a disposition to tur bulence; that he was persuaded if the means of enforcing peace which the Irish Government at present possessed were taken from them, they would soon have to deplore the renewal of all those Outrages by which Ireland had for so many years been agitated.. The severe measures to which it had been necessary to resort had had the effect of driving the disaffected to more distant quarters, where scenes were taking place, the suppres sion of which demanded the most unrelaxing vigilance. The IIOn. Gentleman here described the number of Baronies in Ire land proclaimed to be in a state of insurrection ' • and said, that no longer ago than yesterday he had receive d an account of two murders committed in Kilkenny of the most atrocious description. He sincerely assured the House, that howeVer much the attention of the Government of. Ireland , had neces sarily been occupied by the subjects to which he had just al luded, and by taking such measures as would answer the call of the resident entry for protection against the atrocious outrages with which t hey were menaced, they had, nevertheless, not ne glected taking into consideration, not only the topics to which the Right lion. Bart. had adverted, but ethers not less important to the permanent interests of the country. The Noble marquis at the head of the Irish Government had bestowed the most anxious attention on this question. Before he (Mr. Goulburn) left Ireland the Members of the Irish Government had had many communications together on the subject. The diffi culty of those communications was now considerably increased by the necessary attendance of his Right Hon. and Learned 'Friend, the Attorney-General, and himself, in Parliament.— Under those circumstances it was not surprising if the Irish G overnment were not ready with any immediate measure to pro pose to Parliament; and they ought not therefore to be accused of a deficiency of duty. He could confidently assure the House that the whole subject of the condition of Ireland was under going the most serious consideration. 'When the moment should arrive that the Government of Ireland, having had sufficient time to investigate the question, had made up their minds on all the points which bore upon it, he should be prepared to state to the House either the legislative measure which it would be proposed to adopt, or the reasons which would in duce the Government of Ireland to abstain from making any such proposition. Whatever might be the course which the Irish Government would consider it their duty to 'pursue, he , trusted the House would feel that the censure of the. Right Hon. Bart. was as yet undeserved; and'that it would-be no less im politic than unjust to send forth the Government of Ireland to administer the affairs of that country, under the imputation that the House of Commons did not deem them to be intitled to their confidence. Under all these circumstances, lie felt it his duty to move the previous question. Mr. N. CALVERT supported the original motion.—He ex patiated on the natural advantages which Ireland enjoyed, but which the gross mismanagement of its Government had render ed unproductive. Mr. T. S. RICE, in rising to offer a few observations to the House, begged most sincerely to state, that he should nbt have done so, if he had not considered it a paramount duty for every Gentleman connected with Ireland to speak out, to speak the truth, and the whole truth, upon the subject of her calamities and her misfortunes. He was at a loss to conceive upon what ! principle it could be deduced, that the proposed Address con veyed any stigma upon the Irish Government. So far from any discussion of the present topics being deprecated, it was absolutely provided for by the Bills then introduced in relation to the affairs of Ireland. The Noble Marquis opposite was not so sanguine as to expect that the measures would be limited in their duration to six months ; yet he only proposed their enactment for that period, and for that period they were enacted. He would therefore put it to the House, what was the natural motive which induced the Noble Marquis to propose such a limitation, but the intention that the state of Ireland should come fully under the discussion of Parliament before the expiration 'of the time. It would be remembered that the measures were passed under circumstances of pecu liar emergency, that the Standing Orders of the House were dispensed with, and that the usual rule of passing laws was abridged to almost the shortest possible extent.— The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted the case of mis government in Ireland as the cause of the present state of so ciety in that country ; but he charged it upon Governments of ancient times. Now it was difficult to know where the Right Hon. Gentleman drew his line betwixt ancient and modern times; but he (Mr. Rice) would say that much of the evil was to be attributed to the conduct , of' recent Governments. Al though it 'night-be true that barbarity and ferocity might have been sown and implanted in' the country by those feudal ma rauders who first carried rapine and plunder into its bosom, and sought the extermination of its people, yet was there any man living who could say that the spirit and feeling which now prevailed, and constituted the misery of Ireland, was not to be ascribed to the conduct of its Government within the last hun dred, aye, or within the last fifty years ? If a comparison were drawn between the condition of the people of the \two countries, it must be one at which every Englishman looked with regret, whilst they regarded with horror the contrast which it pre sented. If he asked what had produced this dreadful difference between the state of the two nations, the answer 'was that in England men had lived under equal laws, and an impartial ad ministration of justice. Ireland, on the contrary, had unequal laws to afflict and corrupt her people ; and amongst the most pernicious of these were the laws against the Catholics. He did not mean to raise here the guestion which involved dif ferences of opinion, but in as far as all parties were agreed upon the subject, he had a right to make use of the Catholic laws in support of his argument. *Ai to the doctrines of constitutional liberty', they were as little known to the Irish people as the ad ministration of equal laws. Up to the year 1782', they had no thing even in idea of constitutional liberty. At that period, indeed, it was acquired for them. The name of Grattan was only second to that of:Washington ! When he had established the Constitution in 1782, the C;Overnment perverted the principles and the integrity of the two Houses of Legislature. The ho nours of the one were employed as the means of corrupting the other. The 10th Report of the Commissioners for inquiring into the State of the Fees of the Courts of Justice in Ireland, which was now lying on their table, would furnish them with evidence of the means employed to corrupt the Irish Parlia. ment. He next came to the Union, ,and all he should now say of that was,. that it was not exactly calculated to improve the national de fects which were so much complained of. This woud bring him to the consideration of what Ireland had first experienced at the hands of the Imperial Parliament in 1801.— It was the proclamation of martial law. This was an ominous birth, and it had been unhappily . followed by similar ones again and again, ever . since that period. • When the time of pro mise for Ireland was to come he knew not. They were - always met with the assurances of what would be done.. They were always told that there was a young Secre tary who was about to do something, which something had never , yet been accomplished. They still heard the song of " oung I am and sore afraid," and still the day of promise appeared to be distant. To shew the progress of the Legislature upon the evils under which Ireland was groaning, he would trace what had been done upon one subject alone since the period of the Union, namely upon the tithe-system.— An Hon. .Friend and relation of his first called for an inquiry into the subject in 1808, and was answered by a pledge from the ,Minister of the day, which, from the excellence of that Minister's private character, would be considered more bind ing, perhaps, than that of any other since his death, that the subject should be attended to by Government. Ile alluded to Mr. Percival, who at that time rose in his place and avowed, that the system was under the immediate consideration of Government, and that something should be done upon it. In 1809 it was again brought forward, by the Honourable Member for King's County, in the shape of a Bill ; and it was then declared, that, owing to its Very great difficulty, the sub ject had been abandoned. The Secretary for Ireland at that period, Lord Melville, then Mr. Dundas, requested that the House would wait awile, and see what he intended to propose. In 1810 the same Hon. Member again brought forward the 'subject, and it was again stated that the subject was under consideration, and during the recess every attention would be devoted to it. The recess passed, and the year 1811 came, when the same Secretary requested that the Hon. Member would just withdraw his Bill and wait one more Session. The one more Session came in its then—the Secretary opposed the Bill—it was rejected—and never heard of since. If the subject was always to be met in this way,; and its merits shunned and avoided, it was impossible that a remedy could ever be discovered.— If they came forward with it in a time of prosperity they were told that the people were happy and prosperous and contented, and wanted nothing more. If they applied under circumstances of distress, and consequent disturbance, they were told that was not a proper time for making concessions.— He would caution Iloa. Members against persevering in a course which might bring the people to despair. They were bound to use every power which God and man had given them, to restore the unhappy and afflicted people of Ireland to their rightful state of comfort and of order. In looking at the causes which had produced the dreadful evils under which Ireland suffered, he could not think it practicable to put an- end to them by any, acts of the present age. But they could at least stop their course, and prevent their spread ing to_ a greater extent. If the system of Government had been wrong, they could at least retrace their steps. With re gard to the tythe system, it had been deprecated by- every Irish Gentleman in that House, no matter on what side he sat, or what were his political opinions, .011 agreed in the necessity of immediate measures upon this subject.• But if all the mag nificent hopes they had been led to form were to be met by a Bill for leasing the tythes, he should protest against receiving it is 'payment of what was due to that miserable country. He wished to say a fe a words upon the state of education in Ire land. He was happy to say that in that respect there was some improvement. Some persons,indeed, expected that every thing was to be accomplished y it in the next generation, and i that t would be the means of stopping the general progress of demoralization. The House would be gratified to know that there were at present 8000 schoolmasters employed in Ireland. He, however; complained of the system under which education was afforded to the poor. Improper books were used for the text books, and it was necessary that all distinctions and at tempts, at proselytism should be abandoned; before the benefit which education waS calculated to bestow could reasonably be expected to result from it. He should feel inexpressibly it' the present motion were rejected. Mr. C. GRANT addressed the House from the benches be neath the gallery, so as to be frequently inaudible. He op posed tire motion before the House, but, unquestionably, not because he wished to reject discussion upon the great eines tions which it embraced. Being convinced that the objects alluded to in the proposed Address had neither escaped the consideration of the Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish Government, nor that of his Right Hon. Friends, the Secretary, and Attorney-General, he would not be so unjust to them as to give a vote which implied that they had not received their at tention. At the same dine he did hope that ample discussion would be given to those subjects, and although he could not expect to add much to the information' of which the House were in possession, yet he felt it a paramount duty 'to communicate what had come to his knowledge relAtive to the affairs of Ireland. The state in which that country was, was now become a sort of habit of the people of the most disturbed districts. It was now about sixty years since the disturbances first arose, anti from that period down to the present, they had been continually repeated at short intervals of time. The first of these took place in 1760, when the White boys were first heard of, and that was a' combination of the peasantry against the landlord and against the tithes. The Right Hon. Gentleman then enumerated the different insurrec tions which have occurred since that period, under the denomi nation of " Steel Boys," " Heart of - Oak Boys," &c. and the measures adopted for their suppression. He believed that the immediate cause was always to be traced, as in the present instance, to some acts of local oppression exercised towards the peasantry by agents; He was of opinion that the character of the people of Limerick was more ferocious, and that they were more addicted to ,this sort of tumult and disturbance than those of any other part. They also appeared to remem ber feuds and antipathies with the most implacable tena city. This feeling was not wholly confined to the lower orders, although' he did not mean to say any thing harsh of the respectable inhabitants of that country ; for he knew there were many resident Gentlethen there of • the highest character for humanity and respectability. But. there ,were some who at first encouraged the' peasant, net undoubtedly with any view to the dreadful results which followed, against the persons that oppressed , and injured them, in order to pre vent, if possible, the repetition of their mal-practices. The ~time was now come when they must look into these disgrace , ful circumstances which had been suffered to remain so long.— They must look at the causes from which they originated, and by which the infection always spread with so much rapidity.— He believed,the cause of the latter to consist in the abject state of the Irish peasantry , . At the present moment, he had been informed,., of course his means of information were not equal to those of his Right Honourable Friend, but he had heard, that in the County of Clare the people were abso lutely in a state of starvation. He trusted that something would be done by Parliament for their relief, for their situa tion was represented as being most deplorable. It had been said by my Lord Clive, in 1807, that there was not so miserable a peasantry in 'the world as that of Munster. He believed that their condition could only be matched by that of some of the peasantry of Poland. Yet their produce was ge nerally superabundant. But they had no sort of care to make provision for the future, and the consequence was, that the slightest visitation of Providence which affects their crops produced the most dreadful calamities that could be imagined. He could not help yeferring to the difference which existed between landlord and tenant in England, and Ireland ; and he earnestly pressed it upon the attention of Irish Gentlemen, whether it would or not be advantageous to introduce an en tire change in those relations, and to endeavour to inspire among their peasantry that taste for the comforts of life which raised the English peasant to his comparatively happy state. In considering the causes of the distress which pre vailed in the south of Ireland, the depression in the agricultu ral produce must not be lost sight of. The cessation of the war occasioned the immediate and sudden loss of the provision trade, which produced a degree of distress that was greatly heightened by the subsequent failure of the Banks in that quer. ter. In all disturbances in Ireland there was a cry against rents, taxes, and tythes. With respects to rents, in many instances they had been considerably remitted in Ireland as well as in Eng, land ; -and if the remissions had not been carried to an equal extent, it was not for the want of disposition on the part of landlords, but as he believed from utter disability.—When taxes were the cause of disturbance, the House was not to understand by that the public taxes of the Government, but local taxes, fixed by the Grand Juries. These had not been sufficiently lowered since the war. He would men tion one instance to shew that this was the state of the case. Upon 'a farm in the county of Cork, this tax amounted,' thirty years ago, to five or six shillings. During the war it was raised to 20eand since the peace it had only been lowered al. — The topic to which he should next address himself was that of the tithes, thou gh he did not propose going into it at any length, as notice had been given of a specific motion on the subject. The evils of the tithe-system had, he believed, been considerably exaggerated ; but he did -not think the dispute was between the church and the people ; for he considered that the interests of both were closely identified. The Clergy of Ireland ware in general a most respectable body ; but that it was impossible to disguise the fact that it was the mode of levying tythes which rendered the system vexatious. Itavas here highly necessary to look at tho temperament of the people who were the objects of this system—a people naturally warm and impatient under suspense. The tithe system it was that kept the farmer in constant dispute with the proc tor; for there were few instances in which tithes were not en forced by legal proceedings, and thus irritation became per petual. Among a large portion of the people, too, there was a strong distrust of the Legislature,—a distrust quite uncon nected with rebellion, and occasioned solely by a belief that they were not protected by the laws. He was convinced that this distrust had not originated in any spirit of hostility ;_and that if the whole course of our legislation for centuries were examined, the distrust would readily be accounted for. The system of our legislation was a system deeply injurious to the interests of the people, arid excluding them from the privileges of the Constitution. As early as the reign of James the First, an admirable work had appeared on this subject, from the pen of Sir John Davis, who, after describing the advantages enjoyed by Ireland from natural causes, particularly with respect to its soil, went on to state that the legislative system of exclusion mar red the gifts of Providence ; and the writer added, that he looked forward with confidence to the repeal of• those unjust and impo litic enactments. To remove those scenes of faction and con spiracy which disgraced thescounary it was necessary to soothe the feelings and obtain the confidence of the Irish people. The country contained about twelve millions of acres, and of these eleven and a half had been the subject of confiscation princi pally in consequence of the Anti-Catholic. Code of Exclusion. That, in some degree, had been relaxed, but still the statute book contained the White Boy and Insurrection Acts, and Acts legalizing an array of military pouvir. He was aware that he should here be met by the plea of emergency, yet he could not forget that the emergency itself had been met by measures decidedly unconstitutional in their character In every well ordered society there was a. power of al teration, of adapting itself to circumstances, and of course including the means of defence agains't suth attacki as those which had been the subject of recent legislative provision. In Pngland there was a resident gentry, while. Ireland suffered from absentees. In England the people were protected by an unpaid Magistracy; in Ireland they were suffering from a neglected Police, which, in its limited operation, was too often influenced by political feelings and interests. The people. were suffering much from ignorance, and although there were eight thousand schoolmasters in the country, the nature, of the education was such as to demoralize the minds of the scholars. —Books were placed in their hands calculated to inflame their passions,' and encourage a spirit of adventure which was already sufficiently strong by the influence of nature. This ignorance was, he thought, to be ascribed to the penal code, which, in its effects; professed a desire.for information. He must here observe, that both the Protestant and Catholic Clergy had much to answer for. The Protestant commanded extensive means, but his instruction was: confined to Protes tants. The Catholic Clergy had been almost prohibited any communication with their flocks e but the severity of the measures affecting them had been, considerably relaxed. He was aware that they had very laborious services to perform ; but he thought much more might be dune. The _ordinary police of the country was inefficient, and .was composed in general of dependants upon others. Of the Magistracy, he wished to speak in terms of the inmost perfect respect. 'Their influence had been highly beneficial, but they were to blame for a want of activity. To their general character and presence of mind he could himself bear testimony ; but it was inactivity which encouraged disorder. After all, however, the principal cause of the disturbances might, in one sentence, be described to be, that the Government was ea trinsic from the people. It was a Government originally foreign,' and had been supported by a foreign power. In such a Government there could be but little inducement to sympathise with the people ; but even the most arbitrary of domestic Governments contracted, from the force of circumstances, some habits of connection with the people. From the time of Henry 11. downwards, he believed it would be difficult to' ;Joint out any period in Irish his tory wherein the Government was supported without foreign aid ; a circumstance the more remarkable, as the people go verned were known to possess qualities of the highest order. He deeply regretted the necessity which had occasioned the late enactments; but he thought that necessity was no argil ment against the purpose of an inquiry into the cause. What ever might be fixed upon as the cause, it would be impossible for Government to succeed in their endeavour to remove it, unless the gentry of the country began the work of ameliora tion. To them he would appeal to do that which he really believed they were not indisposed to do. He called upon them to educe+, the people, 'and to give them a worthy ex ample in their presence. He really could not but call it dis honourable in them to abandon the post in which Providence had placed them, in neglecting that which should be con sidered as a privilege rather than a duty. To expect to receive the rental, while the industrious peasantry were left to perish, was as unjust as it was unreasonable and unwise ; and he trusted the appeal he had ventured to make would not be lost upon those to whom it was addressed. The measures which he thought might with propriety be taken into consi deration were three :—The first was the improvement of the constitutional mode of defence. The magistracy i and the po lice were at present highly inadequate tor their intended pur poses. It had been proposed to make the qualification for the magistracy more extensive, and, on another occasion, a propo sal had been made, which would, in effect, have placed the country under the government of Gens d'Armes. The present constitutional system, however, he thought did not require al teration ; for it was a good system worked with bad materials. Because this was the case, it was purposed, unwisely as he conceived, to do away with the system and substitute ano ther of a nature altogether arbitrary. The present system, he was satisfied, when • properly worked, produced the best effects. In the county of Longford, his Noble Friend who represented the county had taken upon himself the duty of improving the condition of those who were within his influence, and had happily succeeded. A few years ago that county had been much disturbed ; so much so that it was ab solutely impossible for constables to execute the warrants of the civil power. Tranquillity had since been restored ; the laws were enforced without difficulty, and a single constable might go into a crowded fair and execute a warrant without experiencing the least interruption: It had been proposed also to introduce a system of gratuitous parochial duty, analo gous to that of England. 'This was, of itself, very difficult• to undertake - but it had been undertaken, and partly ac complished, by his Noble and Learned Friend, the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland. The next measure for considera tion was national education, though lie thought it was a mis take to suppose that uniformity of opinion was alone con ducive to tranquillity. He thought that a supply of liberal ' funds to Government, to educate all persons without reference to religious opinions, would be highly desirable. A small sum had already been appropriated for that purpose; with the most beneficial effects.. The third measure calling for consideration was that of Tithes, and he trusted that when it should be brought forward, it would meet with every attention from the House, and be reduced to a practical shape. During the last disturbances the condUct of the Irish Catholic Clergy had been most exemplary. He had noticed it on that occasion, as he thought it was his duty to do ; and for this he had been much exposed to censure. But whatever might be said on the subject of specific remedies, the best remedy was to be found only in a steady course of good government which would pro mote a spirit of concord among the people. He did not bey lieve that it was a hopeless task to conciliate all parties. He made every allowance for human passions and human inte rests ;- but wherever the experiment had been fairly tried it had succeeded. He would mention but one circumstance by way of instance—ln the county of Limerick there was a pa rish which, although but nine miles from Limerick, and conse quently in the centre of disturbance, had escaped all molesta tion. This security had been caused by mutual confidence—a confidence so great that the Catholic Clergyman had intro duced the Protestant Clergyman into his own pulpit, from which the latter had addressed his Catholic parishioners.-- At the end of his address, the auditors by acclamation con sented to take the oath of allegiance ; and this was no sudden ebullition of goodwill, but was the result ,of long-established confideoce between the Catholic and the Protestant of the place in question. After apologizing for having taken up the time of the House, the Right Ron. Member then sat down amid very general cheering. Mr. ELLIS spoke at considerable length, but so much noise prevailed in the House at the time that we could only occasion ally hear him. The remote causes of the present disturbances had, he said, been attended to, but the immediate causes had been entirely lost sight of. He had no hesitation to assert in the face of the House, and of the Government, who might con tradict him if he spoke erroneously, that these disturbances were caused, without one single individual exception, by the Catholics of Ireland. The conspirators were bound together by different oaths, all apparently of 'a religious nature ; but all expressing in a greater or less degree animosity against the established religion. The forms of these oaths had been transmitted to Ministers, and he called upon them to deny, if they could, that this was the tendency of these oaths. Here was a Catholic Book, which was substituted by the Priesthood for the Bible, which had been traced by Government into al most every cottage in Ireland, and which had a considerable as well as pernicious influence upon the lower orders of the Catho lics. It was written by the Catholic Bishop Walmsley, and. 'contained, among other things, almost a defence of the mas sacre of St. Bartholomew. He was informed by several Pro testants, that they had emigrated entirely from an apprehension that their lives and property were in danger; and he assured the House that on inquiry it would be found that emigra tion had been confined almost universally to Protestants.— With respect to the conduct of the Catholic priesthood and their interference, it because necessary, in order to appreciate that conduct, to ascertain the sincerity of the interference. He admitted that submission had been recommended from their altars, but how did the Catholic Clergy act upon other occasions, whenever their authority was disputed ? In the present instance it was evident that their seeming accommodation had failed. On other occasions they had recourse to the censures of their Church for the purpose of enforcing their mandates ; and that this had been done by them against some of their flock for only reading the Bible, was abundantly proved by the records of the Courts of Jastice. In a particular case a priest had been murdered in Ireland by a' high wayman, and the Clergy of the District suspended all the Ecclesiastical Righte of the whole parish until the murderer was discovered. On the 'other hand, a person who had been a witness for the Crown, on a late occa sion, had been seized and murdered by the congregation of a Catholic Chapel as he was passing by. This was a transaction which had taken place in the broad day, in the presence of the