The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

-practice it had been found to be little more than a delusion. ' On this account he had 'always supported a remission of taxes, as opposition to the maintenance of what was called a sinking lurid. Each Honourable Member had his favourite tax, and one that above all others he wished to see abolished. This Member was for the repeal of the tax on candles, another for the repeal cf the tax on salt ;' for his part, he (Mr. Ricardo) was for the repeal of the tax upon law proceedings—that tax whiriv operated as a denial of justice upon every poor man in the country.---(Hear.) Mr. 'l'. WILSON concurred in all that had fallen from his Right Hon: Friend (Mr. F. Robinson,) but could by no means Fro the length of the Hon. Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ri eardo.) 'When it was proposed, for the sake of the agricultu rist, to impose - a new tax upon tallow, he begged to be inform ed whether any, and what, benefit had resulted to that class , from the additional duty upon foreign wool ? He apprehend- 1 ci that it had been wholly inoperative ; and if this new project of it had not. the same result, the difference would probably be that the farmer would find his burdens increased; instead of berg diminished. He objected to any derangement of the - ,- z7nmercial relations of the country. If the policy of Russia wkli regard to the expected tariff were doubtful, it would at _least be wise that this country should not throw the first stone. He would encourage a free trade by all means, and not by a tax like that now proposed, invite measures of retaliation. Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire) contended, that protecting, duties were granted to Manufactures and not to Agricultural .produce, and that all interests ought to be alike protected. If `those who talked of free trade were sincere in their professions, let them repeal all prohibitory duties, if they altered them at . all. He did not conceive that the country could exist without protections against Lmportation, while it struggled under, such a load of debt, and other counties were comparatively free. — After slightly noticing the tax upon imported wool, which fell, he conceived, on the wool growers, the Honourable Member -said that only one-third of the tallow consumed in this cour. try could be called foreign. The repeal of the tax, however, would, he thought, relieve the poor rather than the , rich, and he should therefore vote for the motion for a Committee, be cause in that Committee the subject might be fully considered. Mr. PHILLIPS observed, that it had been asked-why had not the Manufacturers come forward in the present state of the country ? - He conceived that a reference to the Petitions on the table would shew 'that they had come forward in considerable numbers. He thought it most extraordinary to suppose that we could not protect our own manufactures against the manu factures of other countries. The tax upon the importation of raw silk, might, he-thought, be repealed with advantage, and would be the means of assisting the Agriculturists. Indeed, he considered, that every repeal would be attended with advan tage to them ; for in his opinion Commerce was the chief sup port of Agriculture. Mr. CURWEN shortly replied. He thought it hard that an individual had been mentioned iii the course of the present discussion. He (Mr. C.) had had communication With that individual on this subject in the course of last year; but his opinion had had no influence whatever upon his own. He thought all the principles of the new school of political eco nomy contradicted themselves; and that a dangerous crises was approaching. The revenue of the country could not, in the -present state of things, be collected much longer; and when the revenue could not be collected, the ruin of agriculture could not be far distant. He should not press the question, as the sense of the House appeared to be against him ; but he wished Ministers to recollect, that although the people of - thiS country had hitherto borne their bufthens with exemplary pa tience, they might; when they found their grievances remained unred.resseci, lee induced to a different line of conduct. , The motion was then put, and negatived without a division. LEATHER TAX. Colonel DAVIES, for his Hon. Friend who had given notice of a motion for repealing the Leather Tax, postponed the mo tion from the 24th to, we believe, the Ist of April. SUPERANNUATION BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the discharge of the Order for the second reading of this Bill, and that the Bill be read a second time on Friday. After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER and Mr. HU3IE, we believe on a point of form, Mr. lIUME said,'he wished a schedule of the proposed Re solutions had been added to 'the Bill. He disapproved of the making any reduction from salaries of less than 1001. a year, and should opposq any such reduction if it shguld be suggested. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the schedule should be added. The SPEAKER laid, the forms of the Houp would not permit the adding of any'schedule at present. The question for the second reading of a Bill was merely to raise a discus sion upon its principle. Its detail could be considered only in a Cammittee. Mr. BENNET said, that in the present instance the prin ciple of the Bill could not be rightly understood without a sight of the schedule.. The difficulty as to form might be removed by ordering the Bill to be recommitted. The motion was then agreed to. Lord PALSIERSTON presented an account of all Officers in the Army discharged within a given period, upon whom no cop . . their inc account was, on the motion of Mr. Husii; ordered to be printed. TRADE AND COLONIES. Mr. ROBlN§olViaverio+Sce, that on Friday se'nnight he should submit a . proposition to the House respecting our Trade with the Colonies. He tlierefore moved, that the House should on that day resolve itself '2 . ..t0 a Committee to consider the several Acts of Parliament on that subject, and that in the interim those Acts shoulcl.be entered as read. lONIAN ISLANDS. Mr. lIIiME postponed the motion of which he had given notice, respecting the Government of the lonian Islands, until the lith of April. Air. WILMOT regretted the postponement of the motion. At present he should only observe that he was prepared to prove that the conduct of the gallant Officer who was impli cated in the motion had been such as to deserve the appro bation of the country, as it had already received that of 'the govcrnment. He might be allowed to inform the House that the last dispatches received from represented the country as king in a state of perfect tranquillity. Colond DAVIES said his Hon. Friend had postponed his motion at the urgent request of several Members. He should be happy if the result of the motion proved that the Gallant Officer in question deserved the culogium of the Hon. Secre tary. At present he thought it was at least premature. IRISH FIVE PER CENTS. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the reviv3.l of the dropped Order of the Day for the House going into a Committee on the Irish f. per Cents. Bill. TIE! House being in a Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the success which had ate:l:led the operation of the English 5 per Cents. Bill had rendered it desirable that the measure should be adopted with respect to the Irish Stock of that description. He should therefore propose a set, of resolutions, the same in substance as those upon which the English Bill had been founded. He would not discuss the question -Whether a better bargain might or might not have been made for the public with respect to the holders of the Irish Stock. To impose other terms upon them might be legal, but it•would be harsh ; espe cially as thelegal rate of interest was higher in Ireland than in England.' This Stock was composed of about nine millions, besides the sum for which the Bank of Ireland were creditors ; but the Resolutions he was about to propose applied only to the nine millions. The Irish Bank ,were interested in about two millions and a half. Of this, a part was irredeemable, ex cept by a special agreement •, and the remainder was redeema ble at a month's notice. That notice had been given, and he .had every reason to believe that d satisfactory arrangement would take place with the Bank of Ireland - and the result of that arrangement would of course be laid before the House. At present he should merely move the Resolution applicable - to the nine millions, and similar in substance to those agreed to by the House respecting the Englhh Stock.—He begged to observe that the time for expressing dissent had been alter-' ed to a date one month later than that mentioned in the Eng lish Bill ; but in fact the time would be a little shorter ; though this lie believed would lead to no inconvenience, as Most of the hold2rs of this stock resided in Ireland. The Resolutions proposed by the Right Honourable Gen tleman were then put and agettad to ; the House resumed ; and the Report of the Committee was ordered to be received this day. SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES. The crrAricELLoß of the 'EXCHEQUER moved the Qzder of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Commit- . tee of Supply. The House being in a Committee, Sir JOHN OSBORN was about to propose the remaining Rx , solutions xespecting the Navy Estimates, when - Mr. BENNET objected. It was understood, he said, that these Estimates were not to be brought on that night. A conversation followed between Sir J. Ostiortx, Mr. BEN NET, Sir G. CLERK, and Mr. IltimE, when Sir JOHN OSBORN agreed to withdrAw for the present all the resolutions to which there was any objection. He then moved the resolution respecting troops in garrison. Mr. HUME said a distinct account should be laid before the House as to the troops in tranriftc ; and he trusted such an account would be produced in the Estimates next year. This resolutior i l and another for the Transport Service were then agreed to. Sir J. OSBORN, without wishing to disturb the arrange ment, if his proposal should be "thouFhtiabjectionable, sug gested, that the remaining resolutions might be put and agreed to pro forma, and debated on the coming up of the Report. He wished to know whether this would meet the convenience of lion. Members opposite Mi. HUME said the proposal could, not be agreed,to, many of the resolutions required explanation, which might be given in a Committee,' but could not be given on.the coming up of the Report. ' Sir J. OSBORN assented, 'and did not press his sug gestion. ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTON then rose to move the further consi deration of the Army Estimates. The first vote he would have had to propose was for the Muster-Master-General's Office, but as his Right Hon. Friend, the Paymaster of the Forces, 'was absent, he would postpone it, and call the attention of the Committee to the vote next in order, whiCh was for the ex penses relating to the War Office:. He had the satsisfaction to state that a considerable reduction had been effected in that establishment since last year. The total of the saving was 80001. upon the discharge of 16 persons. It did not appear to be 80001. on the Estimates, because a sum of 9001. was - added, which had been left out by mistake last year, and to which he had called the attention of the House. The ;eying, accounting for this sum, was 0,900/. The persons discharged, with the amount of their ,sMaries, were, as follow :—One of 1,2001. of 1,0001., two of l Bool., two of 7001., two of 4501., one of 5001., and itveral of .Staillir sums. The difference of expellee this year, compar4stisith :that of 1814, was 18,0001. ; and he had to state that a:member of persons had been employed on arrear accounts, and eiffshyould be reduced when that portion of the business was. - disteisEd of. In obedience to the Treasury circu-. lar which had been sent tattle Public Offices, he had prepared a new scale of expence, which, when it came into3operation, would cause a saving of between 18 and 19,0001. The prin ciple of this, scale was material as it regarded the increase of salary of the persons in the, office. According to the old plan, the right of -increase was regulated by the person's first entry into office. By the new ' scale, it would depend upon the length 'of lime which the person had passed in his particular class. This would materially check the- increase of salary ; eo Much so, that a person who entered the office at. a salary of 901. a year, would not be entitled to a salary of 800 L a.year, if he advanced in the ordinary course. The Noble Lord con cluded by moving a Resolution for 43,1851. for the expences of the War Office. Mr. HUME remarked, that he could only make out a re duction of 7,0001. in this establishment, at the same time that he observed there were additional pensions to the amount of 4,9501. When the Noble Lord spoke of a reduction of 18,0001. since the year 1814, he ought to state to the Committee the number of pensions recently granted, which amounted to 17,9101. The superannuation system was carried, in _the office of the Secretary atWar, to a greater extent than it had reached in any office under Government. In 1798, the whole establish ment stood the country in 16,0001.; whereas it was now up wards of 43,0001. With respect to the arrear accounts, he was quite, satisfied that the establishment of clerks which, was kept up to inspect them was of no utility whatsoever. These accounts had been left in a state of confusion, until all who could give any information about them were dead and gone : and vet the Department for inspecting such accounts had cost the public from 130 to 140,0001. in the course of the last twenty years. He was prepared to show, that no office under Government required a .different arrangement more decidedly than that of the Noble Lord. No person, however, could interfere with the 'Noble Lord in checking or controlling the system. There was one singularity in the office, to which he would call the attention of the Committee. There was a Secretary at War with 2,4801. a year, and a Deputy who re ceived 2,5001. a year. Why had the deputy more than the principal ? • The first clerk received 1,4001. a . year, although in 1796 his salary was but 722 L The Commissioners of Military Inquiry, when they examined the state of the War-office, de liberately gave it as their opinion, " that the additions made to the salaries of the principal clerks were granted under par ticular circumstances, and were, in general, to, be considered as merely temporary." It was quite evident, that these very high salaries were intended as a reward for great exertions in the-time of war; and they ought therefore to cease when the hostile operations were no longer carried on. He had expect ed-that the Noble Lord would lay before, the House the scale to which he bad alluded ; of the merits of which they could not judge, until they had an opportunity of examining it. He would now advert to some circumstances connected with the extrava gance of the office. Mr. Brown had been allowed to act as com missary for a short time, and from that department he had retired with 2761. a year. He had 1,2001. a yea:' as clerk. But all that was not enough; 3001. ayear were added as clerk to the fund for chaplains, &c. It was extraordinary, too, that each of those clerks had 71. 15s. sd. allowed him for newspapers. Mr. Richard Brown was thus in receipt of 19261. a year alto gether. If he was incorrect in any of these statements, the Noble Lord was to blame, for detailed accounts ought to have been laid before the House. He did not admit that the House was to lOok only at the a e egregate amount of money. There was a Mr. Edward Marshall, who had 7001. a year, and received besides 1501. 'for preparing estimates to be laid before the House. Now he was overpaid as clerk, if he was able, to spare time to make, up the estimates. A Mr. Wilkinson had been eighteen years in the office, and received 4501. a-year. For assisting in making up the estimated ho received 1001. ; for regulating the army list 1001. ; and for preparing lists of militia and yeomanry 1001.-1 He had, besides, some other employment connected with the army list, and appeared altogether in six different capacities. This plan was all of the Noble Lord's creation. A Mr. Merry ha.r been 11 years a clerk, with a salary of 2501. He was, be sides, private secretary to the assistant secretary. The whole duty of the department might be done by 15 persons, and for 15,0001. Contingencies were stated at 2,2501. Last year the Noble Lord had stated, that not one senior clerk could be spa red. Yet what had lie done ? He had turned out five or six senior clerks ; and if half a dozen more were turned out, the business could be done as well as now. Mr. Sullivan had been ten years in the office, and lie received 1,0001. Now had he, by seniority or otherwise, acquired such a salary ? But it was More. A person having 1,2001.. a year had been reduced, and Mi. Sullivan had his salary increased to 1,200 L a year. This was ministerial economy. He wished the Noble Lord to say, how many-young men had been lately received into the office? During the last two years, and since the pretended economy had commenced, eight or nine young men had been received. The half-pay was 17,4171. The changes which the Noble Lord had made did not, in short, promote economy or the pub lic service. Lord PALMERSTON said the Hon. Gentleman gave little encouragement for future reductions, by the mode in which he received those that had been adopted. He certainly did say last year that little reduction could be expected in the War Office.; having, however, made every exertion to reduce as much as possible, it was rather hard now to turn back on him, and im pute blame for what had been done. This was an inconsist ency peculiar only to the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume.) He reduced those who were receiving large salaries, and ap pointed others to do the business at 901. a year. There was no other possible mode of acting. The substitution of a clerk at 901., for one at 7001. a year was not the sort of expenditure of which the, Honourable Gentleman ought to complain.' If the office were now compared with what it was in 1797 and 1793, the contrast would be found very great. Then there was a small number receiving large salaries. Now the number was greater, but at reduced salaries. The salary of the Deputy Secretary was fixed in future at 2,0001. ; he receiv-, ed no allowances.- Th e gentleman who filled the situation had been examiner of army accounts, at a salary of 15001. a year. Ile had also the privilege of sunplying the garrison of Gibraltar with coals, from which he derived 9001.. a r ..ar. So that he relinquished an income of 2,4001. a year for his present situation, which was only 2,0001. a year. He did not know where the Hon. Gent. (Mr.. Hume) got his information with respect to the War Office, but he could assure him it was impossible the business could be done with fewer hands. They were all most laboriously employed. The duties were very heavy. A clear proof of this was, that not less than 26 clerks had died since 1810 of pulmonary complaints, occasioned by sedentary habit's. Though the chief clerk had at present . l4ool. a year ' it would in future be no more than 1200 1 . With respect to his al lowance as Secretary, it had been considered by the House.' Were, and their opinion was that it should not be disturbed. To his half-pay, as a Commissary, he was fully entitled, like any other officer. None but the senior clerks were allowed Newspapers. It was not peculiar to the 'War Office. The pri vilege was formerly - More extended than now, and the expense was very trifling. The Hon. Gentleman charged him with hay ing created a system of pluralities. Now the fact was, that upon all occasion he set his face against it as much as possi ble. The Hon. Gentleman said the estimates might very easi ly be made up in a few days. The accuracy with which he,, performed his arithmetical functions in that House would not lead him to place much reliance on the calculations of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. flume) but if the Hon. Gentleman had no, objection,, lie would give him an opportunity of convincing himself that those things were not so easily done. To be sure an error of a few millions was not much to him (Mr. Hume); but it would not be so' good to submit estimates to the House of Commons with considerable mistakes, such as those I the Honourable Gentleman was in the habit of making. So far from the allowance to this branch being excessive, it was perhaps smaller than that of any other department. With respect to Mr. 'Wilkinson, he received no allowance for editing the army list—lie undertook it altogether on his own responsibility.— There was an annual,as well'as a monthly army list, but both were confounded by the Hon. Member. The monthly cost little, but the'annual not being so much in derhand required a larger sum. The lion. Member said, that the 15,0001. 'salary could be divided betvieen 15 persons, but could that number discharge the duties of the office ? A. number of names and salaries had been commingled very erroneously 'together e and as to Mr. Merry, he had no more than a fair remuneration. Na man in Office could discharge his duty, unless he had persons to assist him, and thereby be a service to the public. This pro posed scale was altogether prospective, and with regard to Mr. Sullivan, he was sure, on inquiry, that his labours would be found most useful•to the,public, , and reflected the highest cre dit on that individual. An increasp t 0.1,2001. was proposed"by him as the salary of superintendant, but Mr. Sullivan now had, and was only to have, 1,0001. a-yen,r. lie knew of no such persons as a NIL Gaskyl or a Mr. Whitney, although in con sequence of the pressure of business last year he employed a few clerks in order to expedite it. A comparison of the ex penditure of the office, in 179 G and now, shewed a decrease of several thousand pounds. The abuses which took place in the way of, fees were now done away, and since 1806 there was diminution of from 56,0001. to 44,0001., and the number of clerks was also diMinished. In 1813, the charge was 59,0001., shewing a decrease now of 15,0001. The charge of the office by no means kept pace with the business transacted there. The papers sent out of the office would best prove the fact : In 1792 the number was - 7,027 1797 - - - - - 14,253 1821 - - - - - 19,792 TO prepare these Papers there were employed in 1792 - - - - 22 1797 , - - - - - ' 42 1821 - - - - 113 • besides which, the increase of accounts and documents was, in 1796, 1225, and in 1821, 15,900. So that, looking to the busi ness of accounts, it would evidently be seen how much it had increased. With respect to the arrear in the audit, he regretted it; but such was the result of an improper economy, which did not allow hands enough to examine the public accounts.' On the aggregate of the accounts, there were balances due to the public which should be collected, at the same time that the most liberal construction should be extended to . accountants, who were charged with arrears. Colonel DAVIES said, the Noble Lord was blamed by'his Hon. Friend, not for the reduction itself, but for his teodemesi in making it, He had been driven into economy, although he had contended against its possibility ; and it was to be ob served, that most of the reduced clerks received large super annuation salaries. The ceterion by which the House ought to judge was, not what had been done, but what could be done in the way of reduction. • Mr. HUME took the opportunity of stating, whilst Hon. Members opposite were charging Members on his side of the House with mistakes, that it would very soon appear 'by a paper that was on the table of the House,. that the blunder charged upon him relative to the Navy Estimates_ was alto gether unfounded. He assured the House that it would soon be seen that the mistake of which he had been accused to the amount of seven millions was no mistake' at all • as a return was then upon the table which had extracted the sums in the 'same way as he had clone, and arrived'at regard to the increase of salary to Mr. Sullivan's office he had only to say, that if it was made in consequence of the meits of that individual, it was'he who ought to receive the benefit of the increase, and not his successor. ' Lord PALMERSTON could not help observing on the ex traordinary course followed by the Hon. Memberfor Aberdeen 1 (Mr. Hume). In the first place, he (Lord Palmerston) had to set him right as to his blunders about the Army List ; next, Ite spoke of an increase of salary to a clerk in his office, and took occasion to insinuate that the augmentation was made because the individual was a relative of his own. He (Lord Palmer ston) took the pains to relieve him from his error here, by stat ing that that individual received no increase of salary whatever. The Hon. Gentleman upon this got upend told'them, that this individual, if he did not receive an increase of salary, ought to receive it.—(Hear, , hear !l—With all deference to the Hon. Member hi must say that it was waste of time to listen to such speeches.:—.(H ear, hear ! ) Mr. BENNET contended that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) was not open to any charge of inconsistency. Mx. W. SMITH did not think that the Noble Lord had ex plained the charge which had been made of a clerk having left the War Office for the Commiesariat, and then returned to ehe War Office, receiving a retiring pension from the Commissariat. Lord PALMERSTON confessed he was unable to affirm or contradict the assertion which had been made relative to the individual in question, as it must have occurred long before he (Lord Palmerston) came into the office. He only knew that he had held a commission in the Commissariat, and also, that he was Private Secretary to General Fitzpatrick, and 'received half-pay. , - The question was then put anti carried. The next vote was for 26,9531. for the Army Pay Office. Colonel DAVIES thought that the office of Paymaster- General might very well be dispensed with, but as he did not expect to,be able to persuade the Committee of this, he would direct himself to the present high expenditure of the depart ment.' In 1797 the amount of 'salaries was 11,340. ; in 1822, the charge was upwards of 26,0001. when the extent of the army was not to be compared with what it was in the former period. The salaries now amounted to 19.0001. and this, it was to be remembered, was for an office which was ministerial, and the duties of which might be performed by the Bank of England, without the presenaoffice at all. It was an Office which had undergone.searcely any revision, and was capable of a great deal. He should not himself propose any amendment, but would support one made by any other person. Sir.C. LONG said; there was no office in the State which had undergone so much revision as this. It had been subject ed to the consideration of a Committee in 1791, 1797, 1807, 1811, and 1317 ; and of all these; he would venture to say, that not one of these Committees ever said ths office was useless.— Yet the Hon. Member came down and said that all these Com mittees were wrong, and knew nothing of the nature of the of fice ' • and what had escaped the acute investigation of Lord Colchester and Mr. Burke. who had been Chairmen of two of the Committees, the Hon, Member's sagacity had - discovered. The Eionourad e,Gentleman talked without knowing any thing about the matter, superficially, not to say ignorantly, when he called this office a Ministerial .once. ,The paying of half-pay, he believed, could not be called Ministerial.' But the Hon. Member talked of the Bank being able to take all the business out. of _his hands. In this, too, he was quite wrong, and certainly could not have considered that amongst the multifarious duties of his situation, were the issue of 'half pay, the decision in all intricate cases relative to the issue of prize-money, pensions for soldiers' wounds, and allowances to the widows and relations of officeo. Besides this, a great portion of his own time was occupied in similar matters-at Chelsea Hospital. .During the time that he had been in the situation he had done all in his power to reduce the charge of the Department; and when the Hon. Nlember talked of its having undergone no revision, he must 'beg him to look at the progressive diminution of charge, of late years. .• In 1816 it was - £43,000 in 1820 it was - £29,400 1817 - - 34,000 1821 - 23,800 'lBlB - • - 29,000 1822 - . ‘,),6,353 1819 - - 30,000 Thus for the last six years it bad been suffering a gradual re duction.—(T-iear, hear.)—When - he first went into his situation there was much buSiness in arrear—now there was none, every . thing being before the auditors up to the latest period.. He defied the Hon. Member to do the business with a less number , Of clerks than he (Sir C. Long) had. He had reduced many, and was ready to reduce more whenever it was apparent that it could be. done consistently. He knew that lion. Gentlemen opposite cried out agaihst the weight of reduction falling upon the juniors alone, the senior clerks remaining untouched.— Noveit so happened that he had diminished the salaries of all the , upper clerks in his office—(Bear !)—He did not expect, how- , ever, that this ever would satisfy Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but that they would rather turn round and upbraid him fer not being more tender to the old servants of the public. Ile assured the Committee that he had done all that was possible to 'reduce the establishment as low as possible, consistent With the public welfare ; but lie did not mean to say that he expected to satisfy the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(Hear, hear !) . • . Mr. HUME thought the Right Hon. Gentleman took tole rable credit to himself, Considering the, amount was only 1,9081• since last year. The Right Hon. Gentleman appealed to the Committees—he (Mr. Hume . ) appealed o them also.— By a reference to their Reports it would bd found that his Honourable and Gallant Friend (Colonel Davies) was corn-. pletely borne out in stating this to be a Ministerial office, and• that the whole of the duty of the office might be done with greater ease by the Bank. All that the office did was, after making the applicant for payment go through half a dozen rooms, to give a cheque on the Bank of England after all. -But the Right Hon. Gentleman's time was taken.up in deciding. .Chelsea Hospital cases. What has the Pay Office to 4o 'with the Right Hon. Gentleman belonging to the Board of Chelsea Hospital ? Notwithstanding his great exertions lie could as sure him that some of 'the Army Agents could teach' him to simplify his plans. He wished to know whether the Commit tee about to be appointed to 'inquire into the mode of keeping public accounts, were to carry their investigations to other offices than the Treasury ? If so, he was sure their Report would point out a mode of simplification for the Pay . Office. He wished to know whether he was to understand that the Right Hon. Gentleman had added the department - of foreign half-pay to hit office ? If so, he ought to have done it without any addition to the number of clerks. Sir C. LONG said, that it was all very well for the Hon. Menther to talk about simplifying his mode of keeping ac cconts ; but he_nust remind libel that he was a public accomp tant 03 the extent of three hundred millions, and took great re sponsibility on himself. In answer to the Hon. Gentleman, relative to the foreign half-par, he had to state that he had made the issue of that money In addition to the duties of the office over which he presided. He • found Mr. Disney, who before had the charge of issuing it, had 'six 'elerks for that purpose, and out of them - he had selected the two repdrted . to him to be the most compatentaa-(Hear.)-e-And even these were 'engaged with a forewarning that their services would be dis pensed with whenever it should appear that a more economical arrangement could be made. They received the same salary ' as from Mr. Disney, and surely there waS' no exercise of pa tronage in this.—(Hear.)—lt was his wish .to do the best for the public service, but he certainly did despair of being able to satisfy Hon. entlemen opposite. , . . Colonel DAVIES explained... . . . Lord PALMERSTON begged to say, that it was quite im possiblethat the Bank could perform the duties of the Pay master-General. That officer had.not only to pay the demands made tipon him, but had also to ascertain the accuracy of these demands. It had been asked what had the Paymaster-General to do with Chelsea Hospital ? His answer was, that in virtue of his office, he was Chairman of the Board of Chelsea Hos pital—( Hear.) Mr. PE ARSE represented the notion of the Bank of Eng land being able to discharge all the duties of the Paymaster- General as meet extravagant. After a few words from Col. DAVIES and Mr. HOME, the vote was agreed to. . . The next votes were— For the Adjutant-General's Department at Head quarters - • - - ' - - - - 6,844 For the Adjutant-General's Department' in North B For'th_ e sorp Q e uar y t e e ar ra s Ma a s g t o e . r- . G l en t er u a , l as 's .hDies desire e nt ' at Head-quarters - - - - - - 6,17 6 For the Corresponding DepartmenteNorth Britain 250 For Judge-Advocate-General's Department - 4 , 580 Mr. HUME asked whether the reduction of 6001. in this vote was in consequence of the dismissal of the Judge-Advo cate-General for North Britain-? ' Lord PALMERSTON ,said, that that officer had been re dus d, hut it did- not"appear in the Estimates. The reduction apparent in the vote was in consequence of the reduction of the Deputy Judge-Advocate ; so .that there was a double retrench• ment to the amount of I,2ool.—(Hear, hear !) Mr. •HUME said, he was sorry to find there was no inten tion to bring back the salary of the Judge-Advocate-General to any thing like what it was formerly. When it was remem bered that Sir C. Morgan held that- situation for so great a length of tilde, .at a salary of 1,3001., it enust be evident that 2,5001. in time of peace must be extravagant. Unless it were the intention to reduce that amount of - salary, he certainly should- take ehe.seuse of the House on a motion for doing so in the present Estimates. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; that in consideration of the high and important duties attached to the situation, the-rank of the officer; and his immediate communi cation with the Sovereign, when this office had been settled in 1807, the present salary had been given to the Judge-Advo .cateeGeheial.. NOW that-the increased burden of the duties of the Judge-Advocates of Scotland and Ireland had fallen upon, this Officer, with the loss of his. most able assistant, he did not think it was the - time to reduce his salary.—(Hear !) - , Mr. MallE thought that the duties of the office must be so much diminished in time of peace, that a salary of 1,5001. would be quite enough for a Judge Advocate. He therefore moved that in place of 4,5801., the vote be 3,5801. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed; that the office of Judge Advocate General had been on its present footin,g- since the Revolution. The duties had considerably increaeed since that period, and though in the time of Sir C. Morgan no addition had been made to the salary, it was not because there was no reason for doing so, but because the large fortune of the indivi dual rendered. any addition of that kind a matter of no importance to him. But to consider the question on its fair merits, the Office was of the utulost consequence to the army. The lives, fortune, and character of military officers were, in a measure, dependant upon the manner in which its duties were fulfilled. . The Hon. Gentleman had said, that those duties were diminished since the peace; but the fact was; that the number of Reports made to the Advocate-General had increased in a two-fold degree . since the year 1811. In the course of- the last year, no less than 400 General Courts Martial had taken place. The Judge Advocate-General had to read all the proceedings , and to decide whether the evidence was legal, and according to the practice of courts of law. He had also. to advise the Com mander-in-Chief, and the Secretary at War upon important occasions, and to afford his advice to officers stationed in the different colonies, upon various topics connected with the admi nistration of military jurisprudence. If he discharged the duties of his office faithfully, not a single day could pass over him, many hours 'of which must not have been employ ed: No person could say that the salary fixed by-the Admi nistration of Mr. Grenville and Mr. Fox was too much. It was also to be considered that the duties of the Judge Advocate for Ireland-were now annexed to this office, and that no increase of salary attended this additional labour. The office of Judge Advocate for Scotland had been also abolished, and its duties were transferred to the Judge Advocate-General. All this had Occurred since 1807, when the present rate of salary was fixed. He trusted, therefore,under these circumstances, that the Committee would not feel disposed to accede, to the proposie tion of the Honourable Member for Aberdeen. ' Mr. HUME admitted that the Judge-Advocate had a bet- ter Counsellor in the Honourable and Learned Gentleman than in himself when he was in the House; but he could as soon be persuaded that black was white, as that the \ duties of:his office were as great now, in time of peace, as they had been in a period of war. . The SPEAKER trusted he would be excused by the Com mittee, if he addressed a few words to them on the present subject; the Judge-Advocate himself not being a Member oft r h itai the House, ous ' e, - and he (the - Speaker) having - he ' ld - that situ ation32otomake the 'COmmiltee acquainted with the important nature of- the duties . which that officer was called upon to discharge. --(Hear, hear, hear !)--Had it been a mere question as to ale • reduction of salary, he would not have troubled them ; for he 'did - not think the importance of the duties of any public officer was to be measured by the amount of his salary. But lie was most anxious that the Committee should not be-misled ' into-a notion, that the difficulties, the importance, and the de, licacy of the duties of this officer were reduced- to nothing by a change from war to peace.—( Hear hear; hear.)--He was anxious also that it should be understood that they could es timate the extent of his labour by the number cf proceedings, counted . numeratim, which came into his office. , He believ ed that, during the period he had the honour to hold that , -situation, a greater number of paperslad passed through the office than at any former. or subsequent period ; but fie did not consider .that his greatest. difficulty lay in the number 'of the calls thus made upon his attention. No individual could discharge the duties of that office who did not attend most closely.; Called - upon to advise his Sovereign • on the angst grave and delicate matters to individual character and fortune, he had no right to do so without a previous inti mate knowledge of all the circumstances of the case.—( Hear, Bear!)—There was no Judge Advocate in any part of the world where the King's troops were that was not re sponsible • for their proceedings. Admirably formed for all practicable purposes as was a Court Martial, yet the great difficulty was, that it was -not composed of lawyers. He assured the House, however, to counterbalance that want, that in reporting to the Crown, he did not sift the evidence to see 'whether the charge had been proved or - not, but, whether' the evidence on which it was proved was legal or illegal ;—(Hear, hear !)—and the individual had the benefit of every point of law that could be construed in his favour.—(Hear l) —During the first two }ears he -had been in that situation, lie assured the House that he was not absent from Downing-street five weeks, and never could have been absent a fortnight at one time.—(Hear!)—He believed not a day passed that he had not communications of the strictest confidence with the Com mander-in-Chief, the Secretary at War, and the Secretaries of State. If the office were -to be maintained, it must be in that dignity which alone could enable an individual to sustain the responsibility of it, and do justice to the army.—(Hear, hear !) If therefore they were disposed to make the salary 1,5001. in stead-of 2,5901., it must be on any otheround. than on ac count of the non-importance of the office.—(Hear, hear !) The Committee then divided— . For the Amendment - - - 18 - Against it - - - - - 124 . Majority - - —lO6 . .. The Estimate was then agreed to. ' The sum of 12,76.51. was then voted for the Comptroller of Army Accounts, Clerks, &c. The sum of 5,7151. being moved for the expense of the Medical' Department, Mr. HUME wished to have the expense of both brenchee of the Medical Department in the nature of one establishment. He considered the sum more than strict economy ought to allow. • -• , - Lord PALMERSTON said the duties were of the most im portant description ; the officers, of the establishment were en trusted with the health of the troops. The Estimate, and also that for the Medical Department in Ireland, were agreed to. . The sum of 19,3531. was granted for Medicines for the Hospitals. . ror Volunteer Corps in Ireland, 61,3191. To defray the expense of the different troops recruited for die East India Company's service, the sum of 53,1081. . To the Estimate for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, amounting to 13,6021. Mr. MIME objected. -He wished.to know what occasion there was for so many Staff Officers? The Goverhor and Staff Officers were, in the Honourable Member's opinion, an unnecessary expence to the country. The young men educated at the Establishment were numerous. Although they had 290 pupils, it was well known they could not receive commissions. It was cruel to educate young men for a station they could not attain. The Honourable Member having stat ed the whole of his objections, proposed a reduction of 50001. from the vote. Lord PALMERSTON said it was obvious the Hon., Gen: tleman's object was not so much to reduce the vote as to break ' down the establishment. ' The question was, whether there ought not to be a place for officers to receive professional in t struction ? Any man who had turned his mind to military history must know that unless an army, was commanded by officers acquainted with the discipline of troops, they had no hope of gaining a victory. Military education was not neglected in other countries. Thee only mode of securing the instruction of officers was having an establishment. 'With respect to the number of Staff' Officers, it must be ob vious to all who paid the least attention to the description of pupils at the Institution, that unless there were military men of rank to command respect from the Students, the public money would be thrown away. Adveeting to the disposal of the Students, the Noble Lord stated, that out of 2,596, the total number of Students who had been at the Establishment, 1,821 had been in the military service of the country. In the United States of America a Colleg e had.bedn established on the principle of this e s tablishment. .A standing army in Ame rica was not, it appeared, incompatible with freedom. With a standing army ot 5 or 6,000 , men the Americans had in their College 272 cadets. In this country, with a standing army of 60,000, the cadets in the Military College were only 290. There was no fair pretence for saying the number of students was ex cessive. Mr. F. PALMER was willing to admit that young men ought to be educated, but he considered the expense too great. The Governor and Secretary Governor were certainly not necessary. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY considered reduction in this esti mate necessary. The lion. Baronet disclaimed all opposition but that which proceeded from a desire to serve the country. Lord PALMERSTON was satisfied the College derived the greatest advantage from the services of the Governor. Mr. F.-PALMER explained. Mr. BENNEiidia.rp - TZi;to see more than one hundred boys, the sons of officers, educated at 'the Establishment. Colonel WOOD said, the sons of Officers in the College were just 100; and 110 were sons of persons not Officers, who paid for their education, so that the Hon. Members who sitp. ported the amendment were only contending about 80 students. He was convinced the Governor was of great benefit to the eitablishment. - The question being , called for, the Committee again divided: For the Amendment - 26 Against it - 75 Majority - -49 The Estimate was then voted Lord PALIIIr:MSTON immediately after said, it was not his intention to go farther with the discussion on that occasion, but he proposed to proceed with the Navy Estimates on Friday. The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Friday. - Mr. WILBRAHAM. gave notice of his intention.to bring in, a Bill on the 29th inst. toregulate the Trade of Canada. The other. Orders of the Day were read, and the House ad journed at ONE O'CLOCK. LIST OF THE MINORITY OE 30, WHO VOTED FOR ant. HUME'S MOTION FOR THE REDUCTION OF TWO COMMISSIONERS OF TEE VIC-. TUALLING BOARD. ' • Blake, Sir F.. Hutchinson, Hon. Rickford, Bright, Henry ' - C. H. Robinson, Sir G. Bennet, Hon. H. G. Keck, G. 4. L. Smith, Wm. Crespigny, Sir W. Leycester, R. . Smith, Robt. Crompton, S. Monek, J. B. Sykes,' D. Davies, Col. MOore, Peter • Wood, Alderman Evans, William Martin, John Wilkins, W. Fleming, J. Price, Richard Williams, sen. Griffiths, J. W. Pares, Thos. Whitmore, W. W. Gurney, R. H. . Phillips, sen. TELLER. Hume, J. Rice, T. S. Bernal, Ralph MINORITY ON THE MOTION FOR REDUCING THE SALARY or THE JUDGE ADVOCATE. Barrett, S. B. M. 1-16bhouse, J. - C. Robarts, Colonel Chamberlayne, W. James, W. Bickford, W. Crespigny, Sir W. Lushington; Dr. Whitbread, S. C. Creevey, T. illonck, J. B. Ellice, Ed.. Palmer, C. F. Fergusson, SirR.C. Palmer, Col. Hume, .Joseph Robarts, A. TELLER. • Berinet, Hon. H. U. MINORITY. or 26, WHO VOTED , FOR REDUCIN4 . £5,000 - FROM THE VOTE TO THE'MILITAILY COLLEGE. Bankes, H. . - Crespigny, Sir W: Palmer, C. F. Barrett, S. B. M. - Hobhouse, J. C. - Ricardo; David Bernal, R. Hume, J. - Robarts, A. - Bennet,Hon.H. G. James, W. Robinson; Sir. Geo. Benett, John . - - Jervoise, aP. Webbe, - Ed. Birch, J. Lambton, J. G. Whitbread, S. C. Blake, Sir P. Lushington, Dr. Wilson, Sir H. W-. Bright, Henry liladdonald, Jas. TELLER. Bruce, Robert • , - -NOrrnanby, Visct. Monck, J. B. THE ARMY. Irswicn, MAncH 18.—The following -letter has been received by- Lieut.-Colonel EDGAR, commanding the Suffolk Yeomanry Cavalry ‘4 Sin,--May I request that you will convey my best thanks,. and those of the Magistrates of the county of Norfolk. to Lieut.-Colonel Ray, and the. Officers and-Privates 'of the Suf folk Yeomanry Cavalry, who so promptly and zealously afforded their valuable assistance during the late riotous pro ceedings,which have disgraced our county. . " I have the honour to be, Sir, " Your most obedient humble servant, " Portman-square,l ' " JOH N WODE HOUSE, March II?, 1822, f " Lieuttnarit of Norfalk. " To Lieut.-Col. Edgar, Commanding Suffolk Yeomanry Cavalry.'-'. , , A strong detachment of the 9th• Lancers, com mand ed. by Major CAMPBELL, arrived at Ipswich on Sunday se'nnight, from Canterbury,' and next, day part of them proceeded on their - 'route to Norwich. AIERCANTILE SHIPPING, &c. PoIITSMOUTH, DIARcH 20.—Wind W.—The Defence and Alfred transports went out of harbour, and brought 'up at Spithead, previous to their sailin g ; for Ireland. • - • DEAL, MARCH 20.—Whid S.W.—Arrived and sailed for the River the Princess Royal, Hackman, for Madras and the Cape. Came down from the River and remain the Tropic, Bradford, for Darbadoes ; Surprize, Bigvreau, for Lisbon ; and Polly, Wheatley, from Shields for' Gibraltar. PLYMOUTir, M.Anc W.N.W.—Arrived the Dart; Bowie, frOm Newcastle for • St. -Michaels ; John and Rebecca, Larcom, from Poole for Figuera ; and Jane, Rich, from Lisbon. Sailed the Louisa, Le Bus, for Jersey ; and Frunos, Bur, for Morlaix. • FALMOUTH, MARCH 19.--Wind W.—Arrived the Prince Regent, Hoop, from Lisbon. HAnwictr ' MAncn 20.—Arrived the Traveller, Kearsly ; and Ann and Susannah, from Newcastle, • both with loss of anchor and cable, and the former with windlass broken. Also the Mayflower, Clough, , from Gainsborough, with loss of anchor. Sailed the Henry Freeling packet, for Hamburgh ; and Leicester, ditto, for Holland, each with a mail. ST. IVES, MAucir 16.—Arrived the Sloop Margaret, and Jane, of Aberdeen, from Cardiff to Havre, leaky. The Argo; Loseman, from St. John's, N. B. to Liverpool, ivas abandoned on the 9th inst., in lat. 47. long. 3.1. being water-loped. The Felicity, Nuthens, from Waterford to London, was driven on shore on Sunday near Calais, but it was expected would be got off the next tide after discharging part of her cargo. , , The Ocean, Morson, from Rio Janeiro to Lima, was cap tured in July by a Pirate • some of the crew, were killed, and some delivered over as Slaves to the Natives of the Island of Santa Marie. The Orpheus, Findlay, from Bombay, Mauritius, and the Cape, is arrived off 'Weymouth. Yesterday a Court of Directors was held at the East India House,! when Captain Thomas 'Williams was sworn into the command of the ship Princess Amelia, consigned to China di rect. The dispatches for Madras and China, by the ship Lon don, Captain J. B. Sotheby, were closed and delivered to the purser of that ship. Last night, about a quarter before twelve, a most alarming fire broke out on the premises of Mr. List, a sugar-baker in Lit tle Abe-street, Goodman's-fields :at half-past twelve it assum ed a most terrific appearance; there being a scarcity of water, the whole body of the building was in one blaze, anti a number of small houses at the back, chiefly wood; fortunately, how ever, a number of engines arrived, and water being procured, the fire was got under, but not till two o'clock this morning' having entirely consumed the whole of the large building, a nd most of the property. We have not heard of any lives being lost, or any person seriously hurt,