The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-12 00:00:00

i ‘Y IMPLMIAL BRAZILIAN MINING ASSOCIATION, Winchester Hous.e, Broad-street, April 10. _NOTICE is hereby given, that the BOOKS for the TRANSFER of SHARES in this Asso ciation will CLOSE on SATURDAY, the 14th Instant, and re-open on the day next after the General Meeting in May, of which due notice will be given. L. I. SIMEONS. Secretlry. KEY, Mayor. A COMMON COI) NCIL' holden in the Chamhe^ of.the Goil(!hal . .! of the City of London, en tidedne•day, the 11th day of April, 1832; Resolved,—That this Court, impressed with a firm be lief that the most secure basis of national prosperity and social happiness is to he found in principles emanative from a moral and religious education, contemplate with peculiar satisfaction the important measure which has been tecently adopted by His Majesty's Government for promoting the education of the poor in Ireland. That, distinguished ei the Wirast!re is by the Parlia mentarY grant for the accomplishment of this purpose being instructed to a commission consisting of persons of different religious persuasions, chosen by and accountable to the Government, and by the abandonment of all those regulations which interfere with the religious tenets of different classes, this Court entertains a confident hope that the blessings of education may he more generally dif fused, and that the union of all denominations in their moral and literary learning, unaccompanied by that chis aension.which was attendant upon the religious instruction formerly afforded, will tend to produce the most kindly feelings, and essentially to promote the national prosperity and social happiness of our Irish fellow-subjects. Resolved,—That petitions be presented to b , )th Houses of Parliament expressive of the foregoing sentiments. WOODT HORPE. This day is published, In small 8v.,., Price 54. 6d. boards, MELANGE in English and French, Prose and Verse: comprising Revo'ution, a Metapho rical Narrative; Sun-rise; Sun-set ; Dramatic Scrips; Catherine, &c. &c. &c. In two Parts. By MARIN DE LA VOYE. L , ndon : Published by Parbury, Allen, And Co., Leadenhall-street. This day was published, in Svo. price Sa. 6d. in boards, SERMONS preached before a COUNTRY CONGREGATION. By the Rev. MONTAGU OXENDEN. A.M., Rector of Luddenham, Perpetual Curate of Wingbam, and Domestic Chaplain to the Right Hon. Lord Prudhoe. Printed for J., G.. and F. Rivington, St. Paul's Church-yard, and Weerloo-place. Pall mall. " It is no trivial acquisition in a Country Pastor to be able to set before his hearers, in language equally intelligible and , forcible, the great truths of Revelation. The Sermons before us prove that the Author has this talent in a high degree."— Christian Remernbrancer, Dec. 1531. Published this day, in 12mo. Seventh Elision, enlarged, with 21 Engravings, 7s. 6d. plain, or 12s. colour d, CONVERSATIONS ON BOTANY. The object of this work is to enable young persons to acquire a knowledge of the vegetable productions of their native country : for this purpose the arrangement of Lin na►us is explained ; and a native plant of each class (with few exceptions) is examined, and illustrated by an En- S►aving. Printed for Longman, Rees, Orme, Brown, Green, and Co., Paternoster-row. SCHOOL AND COLLEGE CLASSICS, wi ll' ENGLISH EXPLANATORY NOTES, EXAMINA. Li V Y. TION QUESTIONS, &c. BOOKS I. TO V. By Dr. HICKIE, Read Master of Hawkshead Grammar School. Small Svo., '7s. 61., boards, 2 . CICERO'S SELECT ORATIONS, from the Text o f JO. CASP. ORELLIUS. Sm Bvo., Is. 6d. has. HERODOTUS. Containing the Continuous His tory alone of the Persian Wars. By the Rev. C. W. bTOCKER, D.D. Two Vol,. small Bvo. 18s. Printed and pub!ished by A J. Valpy, M.A., Red Lion con t, Fleet-street, and sold by all Booksellers in London, Oxford, Cambridge, &c. Just published, New Edition with the Population Re turn of 1831, price 18s. boards ; or 185. 6d. half hound in parchment, pATERSON'S ROADS of ENGLAND and WALES, and of the SOUTH of SCOTLAND. By EDWARD MOGG. Airanged upon a plan entirely novel; the whole re modelled and augmented by the addition of new Roads and new Admes.surements ; with an Appendix; a Tour through Wale., &c. London : Printed for Lonmsn, Rees, Orme, and Co. ; J• M. Richardson; Hatchard and Son; C. Chapple ; Baldwi n and Cradock ; J., G., and F. Rivington ; J. Banker ; W. Joy ; Whittaker, Treacher, and Co.; I' Te 46; J. Duncan ; Simpkin and Marshall; J. Dowd ing ; J. Hearne ; Smith, Elder, and Co. ; T. and W. Boone ; and E. Mogg ; and G. and J. Robinson, Liverpool. DEBATE ON THE REFORM BILL IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS. THE MARK LANE EXPRESS, Agricultural and Trading Newspaper, of the largest dam, price only Sevenpence (published every Monday evening, in time for the Post), will give on MONDAY. the 16th instant, (without additional charge), a SHEET DOUBLE the SIZE of the TIMES, containing a full Account of the Debate in the House of Lords on the Se cond Reading of the REFORM BILL. In it will be found—The fullest particulars of MON DArs MARKET at MARK-LANE, and all the other Markets, Horne and Foreign, of the Week ; MEAT MAR KETS and Reports of FAT and LEAN STOCK MAR KETS; State of the WOOL TRADE, Home, Colonial, a " Foreign, Current Prices, &c. ; all important matters occurring in the Agricultural and Trailing World ; a LIST of the principal FAIRS to take place every en • suing Week : all Improvements, Patents, &c. ; Concise Statement s of the Effects of New Decisions in Courts of Law, and the earliest Notice of Motions and Bills in Par liament affecting the interests of Landlords, Tenants, Ma nufacturers, &c. ; particular attention to all changes in the Laws, of moment to the Maltster and Retail Brewer, the Prices of Malt and Hops, Wine, Spirits, &c., and all that can constitute a desirable FAMILY NEWSPAPER, and Record of Facts, &c., for the information and guid ance of men of business. Orders received by the Publisher, W. Jenkinson, at the Office, 336, Strand, London, and by all Booksellers and Newsmen throughout the Empire. Theandsak Lane Express. a new Paper devoted to the agri. cultural commercial interests, as well as to general intel ligence and polities. It is well printed, and apparently well conducted, and promises to be a useful Newspaper to persons in trade."—Edinburgh Chronicle. An excellent, Weekly Paper, which should be in the posses. on of every Corn Merchant and General Trader."--Lancaster icrald. A new agricultural paper, very apprcpriately named, and very well conducted."—Mechanics' Magazine. KING'S COLLEGE.-A General Court of the governors and proprietors of this Institution was held yes terday, in one of the lecture-rooms of the College. Amongst those present we recognized the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishops of London, Gloucester, Chichester, and Bangor; Lords B ex l ey an d H en l e y ; Sir Charles Price, Sir George Staunton, Doctors D'Oyly and Richards, Mr. Sotheby, and many other gentlemen of eminence. The Archbishop of Can. terbury took the Chair- The minutes of the last Court were read and confirmed. The Court then proceeded to ballot for the choice of Auditors, Treasurer, and other officers. In the course of the day it was announced that the Chair of Political Economy was vacant, Professor Senior having been appointed a Commissioner to inquire into the Poor Laws. NATIONAL POLITICAL UNION. —The Council of this Union met last night, Mr. Owen in the Chair. The Rev. Mr. Fox moved " that should the Reform Bill be rejected, a special meeting of the Council should be held on the following evening, to consider what means should he adopted in such an unfortunate exigency." Mr. Rogers se conded the 'notion, he alluded to the non-payment of taxes in case of rejection ; for believed that the opinion was general concerning the mode to be adopted ; nay, he considered that the rejection of the Reform Bill should be a warning to every tradesman to shut up his shop, meet in the squares, and to de. liberate ; and from deliberation proceed to action, should that befound necessary. The resolution was unanimously carried, and with the decided approbation of all. The most intense anxiety prevailed among the Members of the Council concern- H , it the fate of the Iteform Bill, and also a decided determina tlon to carry into effect the resolution proposed by M r . F ox , a t unti!ußgestion of the Committee of Management. It was harn Tt.od that a s i m il ar motion is in progress of the Birming. but then'l."' who are now considering not merely the propriety, hay, d ue ce "itY of allowing the law with regard to taxes to course !o as to Should the Bill be again rejected, or modified treat down ren der it t antamout to rejection. Many Members meeting. tO the House of Lords immediately after the Articles of th e day attire Middle sex Sessions by Mr. Clarkson, against Mr. peace w ere ex hibit e d on 'riles '''. R. Weston, of the .Pe, Park street, Dorset-square, for cruelties towards Martha, his wif e . Th e ex hibi tan t h a d had had concealed th e an illegitimate child be fore she marr i e d t h e d e f en d an t , an d circumstance from him. The defendant bad been held to bail buther, he imm edately forfeited his recogni. rancel, by violently ating her. The Court ordered Mr. Weston to enter into fresh sureties, himself in 1001. and two ~,r tti c , i n 601. each, and to give 21 ni mre • notiv , o f inik, I Y r, ' /7 - , • ' - - .... 41r/ / / / ~,,',"'• -1 ) . : v . k i., - - ja, • 2 -Mi t . 2 • •• 4? -4 9 :' t / 41 " . •'— • -. i 4. ' .. 4 ~.,. . ~,,,,,, , o, , .ck i 4 - - .5 .-- - 7: •'-. - 9 ' --- --, !,, ... ~ 1 .. •. , '''.!S&. .. , r 4: ' -tf,,,\, . ~)i ,.4 1,4440. ~ _ ~,,_,.... ..., lt .; 4r, --:.. - t, „It,. i •:: ___. .‘.., .•÷.--...,..... ;,, .....t., . ‘ o z .. . ~. ~ i r 'Le g, • ;;;, 00.- ~,, a n c,. L ~ . .T:7; 1,, ,-- ,• ' ,-- -.' ... l e. ,ep,„ --Ls - • cek 6r , ~,,. ./J - --_-_ •., .. , • w,.. ' , iv. .4i v. _ A l ;,, :„ 1 ii, - 4 +i, ~4C' • • \ ".._ t• 1 4 - -.'-' - .11, ...: - if.----'----4Z; ; ;), - ft, 41! .'• INI 0 ----!_fi 1 1., , ,2 _ - • lihaiireiromiu.Sp. 8- Ihe did not think it necessary, in order to give that represen itation to the country, to sweep away the rested franchise rights of freemen which had been the result of honest industry, or the price of laudable exertions, and which were esteemed by those who paseeesed them as highly "as many of the Peers around him valued their titles. There were three principles embodied in this measure, to all of which he had most decided objections. The first was that of enfranchisement; the second, that of disfranchisement; anti the third, the new qualifications, which would establish a new system of constituency throughout the country.—(He ‘r.) He had no ofjection, as he said before, to the enfranchisement of such places as Bit mingham, Manchester, Leeds, Shef field, &c., but he could not give his sanction to the principle of extensive measures of enfranchisement which thts Bill involved. He had already stated his opinion as to the disfranchisement clause ; the third principle, namely, the low qualification, was highly objectionable. He did maintain that the 101. enfranchising clause would go, in great towns especially, to establish a constituency, if not of the lowest description, made up of members of those political unions which had so much disgraced the country. Besides, he was convinced that the clause, as it stood, was more dangerous than it appeared under the former Bill. There were other parts of the Bill to a hich he had objec • Lions ; but those to which he had just now adverted were the principal and the fearful ones. He had stated that he was fully prepared to give representation to the great manufacturing interests of the country. —(Hear, hear.) net declaration he made honestly for he possessed no political influence whatever over any human being, and he left every man to take that line of politics he thought proper to pursue ;.hut lie felt convinced if the present measure passed, the power of the Crown must be of short duration. 'The present measure took away all vested rights, and which he considered their Lordships ought to hold most sacred. He would allow the visions of sight to darter in different men, that one mig t see a spectre., but not another ; hut he thought it requited no spectre to convince every thinking man that the pieeent Bill would lead to the must ruinous con sequences. lie could see no difference in its principles from ttoet which had been introduced last Session. Indeed, he thought that some of the vicious parts of the Bill, the democraticel ports of it, had been extended. Noble Lords who addressed their Lordships from the other side of the House had seated that it was necessat y ti, yield to pubic opinion. In what situation, he would ask, would the House be placed if it was to listen to every public clamour? The legislature 6f one of the greatest countries in the world would be placed in jeopardy. He could not be led to believe that leis Sovereign, having a due regard to the oath he had taken, would resort to those extraordinary means, or would ex • erchee his high prerogative, for the purpose of carrying this Bill, which had been sugeested. He would be the last man in the world who would consent to be a slave in the country, but would look forward to times when the feelings and good sense of the people would enable him to sustain his rights. No man in the kingdom was prepared to go to a fuller extent than he was, in the investigation of questions of this nature, but he could see no good that would result from allowing this Bill to go into Committee. If the present Constitution of the country had enabled England to weather all the storms that had beat against her, where was the great necessity of making any alteration especially an alteration so exten sive as the one proposed by the Bill of the Noble Lord? He would never sanction Any principle that meditated so great a change in the Constitution of the Country, There were four parties who were interested in this question ; first the constitutional party, who seeing the effects of the pre sent state of the nation us ished to extend certain privileges, and give to great commercial towns representation, but in giving that they did not wish to impair the con stitution of the country as it at present existed. Another party were the Roman Catholics of the count. y, who saw that it would be the means of giving them con siderable advantages and political power. The third party was the revolutionary party, and the fourth was the Whigs. In conclusion, the Noble Earl implored their Lordships to recollect that on their votes depended the interest of the country at large, and the maintaining unriolated that sacred Constitution under which it had so long flourished. He earnestly implored their Lordships to discharge their duties honestly, faithfully, and fearlessly; arra he trusted their Lordships, by their votes that night would establish the aristocracy of England on that firm foundation on which it had always stood. He felt proud to be one of that Aristocracy, and as such, he hoped awl trusted their Lordships would re ject the Bill. think they would be permitted to do so? No, they I would have to stand by and see revolution take it , course. He would not repeat the thrice-told story of the French Revolution, but would call on their Lordships to look to the history of their own country. he the reign of Charles the First, the House passed a triennial Bill; the King—then a patriotic King— a citizen King—agreed to the measure. What tol lowed ? Very soon afterwards Ministers were removed, the powers of the Bishops were detroyed, a meeting was called to shorten Parliaments still further : they were shorten ed, and very soon afterwards the Peers lost their influence en tirely. so it would he in the present instance, if this h-mocratic Bill passed into law. If this Bill were passed, the monarchy would be placed in the hands of the domestic tyrant—in the hands of the Puritan, or in some individual or individuals, who may have supposed themselves calcu Let d to wield power. Did the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government think he would be able to stand the storm, or be competent to guide the whirl wind ? Not he. He was much too honourable—too pene'rating to entertain any such notion. He would be told that he had been made use of, that his high wind had been called into service until the ends of certain individuals had been accomplished, and that no longer would his services be required. Did he not feel even now that in the bark, he W 144 touching ground, that the waters were running front under him? If this turned out to be the case, and if this Bill passed, the Noble Earl would find that he would net be the only person, as he had hoped, on whom the effects of theevil would fad, but the whole of their Lordships would be swamped. But the Noble Lord to whom he first addressed himself thought that this Bill was more fivourable in its principle than the last; but he satild like to know in what the Bill now before them differed from that of 1 tst year. If he were not mistaken, the principle of the Bill of last year was to en franchise without necessity, and disfranshise without crime. That the Bill now before them was more democratical than the lest, had been allowed by all who were the best judges upon the suiiject. Would not counties be swamped by the voters of the large manufacturing towns ? Earl GREY—No. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM—No ! It was well then that the people of England were set right upon that point; but lie supposed that if they voted for the county they would cease to vote for the town. Earl GREY—You tad better read the Bill. The Duke of BUCKING HAN! said, that he reinembered a Noble Earl stating on a former occa sion, that not one in ten thousand who asked for the Bill would read it, and that that one would not under stand it. Such being the case, it ought net to :he any matter of surprise that he had nvt been able to comprehend it. With respect to nomination boroughs, it appealed that the Noble Lord had now for the first time found out they ought to be abolished. Now he (the Duke of Buckingham) maintained that the tight of voting might be given up or might be bestowed, but could not be taken away. He had no hesitation in saying that he possessed influence in what is called a no mination borough. He held that influence by law, and to the law he was ready to restore it. Why was it that these boroughs were objected to ? not because of the individuals who held the right of voting there, but because they were under the in fluence of per sons against whom the public feel ing of the country had been excited. He was ready to give up that influence, but he contended that as the voters had committed no offence, they ought not to be disfranchised.--( Hear, hear.) They had voted, as their (rends wished them—(Hear)—but ought they on that account to be visited with &penalty ? The nomination borough to which he alluded was composed of per sons of the poorest class, who had never known probably what it was to have five guineas to gether in their lives. Twice, however, since he had been connected with that borough have these hard working and industrioue men, who gain their liveli hood upon the high seas, been attempted to be bribed, and that by a Reformer. Thousands were offered them. Did they accept the bribe? No, they rejected it with scorn, and came to his agent to state what had ti_en place. He gave them his thanks for their honesty and kindness to him, but they obtained nothing more, nothing in the shape of a bribe : was it right that such men as these should be visited with punishment. It could not be, and the object of the measure he should bring in, if the House allowed him an opportunity, would be to save such men their franchise. What right had the Crown voters, from Limehouse or Whitehall, from St. Giles's or Marylebone, to held up their heads, and " thank God they were not like unto these publicans?' The Noble Earl had said, that because he (the Duke of Buckingham) proposed to join others with those men in their right of voting, that therefore they were disfranchised. Now he would ask if Aylesbury, if Cricklade, if Shoreham were disfranchised ?—(Hear, hear, bear.) Certainly they were not.—(Hear.) Certain Voters of those places had committed crimes, but not one even of those had been disfranchised, and all that was done was to infuse fresh and pure blood among them, in order to prevent a recurrence of what was before objected to. His object was, in the same manner in the Bill he meant to bring for ward, to preserve these men their franchise. Some of their Lordships might think that such a Bill would more properly originate in the House of Commons. He thought it a matter of no consequence where it originated ; but if any of their Lordships felt any material objection on that ground, he had no hesi tation to say he would embody his Bill in a resolution.— The Noble Duke proceeded to show by a comparative statement of the population, assessed taxes, and regis tered tonnage and ten-pound houses, great injustice would be done to the boroughs which were seve rally enumerated in schedules A and B. Toe Noble Duke il:ustr rted this particularly by the cases of Dart. mouth and Helstone. How were these boroughs made out? They were made out, it appeared, by Commissioners appointed by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, and paid by the Treasury. The Noble Lord en the Word/lack had done much in order to increase his patronage. The Bankruptcy Bill, for example, had considerably extended it. But he trusted an op portunity would not be given for another increase to it, by the appointment of the Commissioners under this Bill. He complained of the manner in which these Commissioners had acted with respect to these boroughs. They went round all these boroughs, and applied not their principle to the borough, but the borough to their principle. When the borough was too small to suit their opinion, they enlarged it. When too large, they detracted tram it. The franchise was given by this Bill to 10/. householders ; but how was this value to be ascertained? The Noble Earl at the bead of Go vernment knew very little of the difficulty of assessing the value of a single house. A cherry tree added to the value. And the Comonasewners would be obliged to count all the apple -trees. The atorneys and solicitors would eter nally be making Inquiries and increasing the expense, which was to be p aid by the treasury, and perpetual canvasses would thus be going on in every part of England. Yet all thin was recommended by a system as decreasing expense. No question was to be asked of the voter when he came The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said, that he had heard with great regret, and with no small feeling of surprise, language in defence of the votes they meant to give on the present debates, by the three Noble Lords, whose example he was so proud to follow in the discussions on the former Bill. These Noble Lords led him, and those who acted with him upon that occasion, to victory; but he re gretted to ind them now on the opposite side in the contest. Those Noble Lords had each made unanswered and unanswerable speeches ; but they had been now put to the unpleasant necessity of answer ing those speeches themselves. He and several other Noble Lords were consequently left to fight the battle themselves, but he hoped that they should again pursue the battle to victory. Those Noble Lords had, it seemed, retired hick, " scared at the sound themselves had made." They said that they were not deserters, forsooth, because they bad not enlisted, but they had left that side of the House to fight on the other side. He hoped they would not shortly find themselves in the same situation in which other leaders had been placed, vie. shot down by their own soldiers. One Noble Lord, who was inclined to be facetious, said he had no objection to fight on his (the Duke of Buckingham's, side, provided that the right wing of the army was not commanded by the High Bailiff of Old Slrum, and the left by the Mayor of Gatton. The Noble Lord talked of flags, but he should recollect that there was a flag already in the field—he alluded to the white flag of Birmingham—and of all the flags that could be made, it they were as numerous as those that Major Dalgetty had fought under, the flag of Mr. Attwood was the one he would se lect. A Noble Earl bad stated that his objections were to the principle of the last Bill ; but there was not an argu ment which he bad used which should not have induced him also to vote against the present Bill. If they voted against the last Bill, what reason had they for not doing the same now? They had voted against the Bill of last year because it was too much of a democratic ten dency, and consequently it was thrown out. Upon that occasion, the Noble Earl opposite (Grey) then said that he would produce a Bill of similar efficacy, or he would not remain in the King's Councils. lie had produced a similar Bill, and the question now was, whether the consistency of their Lordships' House should he maintained or not. What was the difference between the principles of the former Bill and of the present one ? Was it less democratical ? The po ideal unions had declared that it was more democratical, and therefore they were satisfied with it. The Noble Earl had told them last year that the Bill was called for by the people ; but who called for it now? Were they seeking to yield to the cla mour of the people ? The Noble Earl had called on their Lordships not to submit to intimidation. He (the Duke of Buckingham) asked the Noble Earl to abide him self by that call ; but if he was so blind to the interests of the country, so lull of personal ambition, he implored their Lordships not to consent to give the Bill a second read ing. He suppos-d there had been no compromise with the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, —( Hear, hear.)—and Noble Lords, to bring forward this Bill in its present shape. Their characters exempted them from that supposition—but had there been no softening down of the people ?—and had they succeeded in doing away the democratic principles of the mea sure? If they had not, with what face could they venture to come forward with the measure again? It seemed that some Noble Lords had been admitted behind the ,cones in this transaction, and saw the incanta tion of Macbeth who broke in on the witches. They had seen the spell formed—they siw the incantation formed—and what then ? Why then, they told their Lordships to take the venom out of the Bill, and • asked them to go into Committee for the purpose of doing that. Why, did Noble Lords think they would be allowed to extract the venom out of this Bill in Committee ? could they think they would be able, or be permitted to remove the poison from a Bill which contained nothing but venom ?—(Loud cheering.) Did they think they would ever be allowed to make any thing eatables healthy meal—a good dish of soup—out of that which was altogether unclean ? ['heir Lordships were asked then to go into Com nutty, to so the Bin right, sat suit *WY to the poll, as to his being the individual described, and an appeal was only to be made to a Committee of the House of Commons, and this ostensibly was to di minish expense ! The next point was in relition to the Metropolitan Members. They had the segments of London, and the Members to be supplied to these segments were to represent the interests of England! What, London representing England? They were to to k for purity of representation to the purlieus of Saffron-hill, to tne shads of Tower-hill, to the classic language ot Bil lingsgate, and the salubrity of Maryleboue Tkey had heard much of England's glory and Westmins ter's pride, but every beggar they met with in the metropolis was to form a part of the future constituency. He would refer fur a few moments to the speech made by a Noble Lord (Shrewsbury) last night in favour of the Bill, which was so unfortunate, fick e, and dreadful. He hardly knew how to take notice of that Noble Lord's speech. He certainly had spoken in the terms which were not fit to be used to any Gentleman in the House of Commons, or any Peer of Parliament.—(Hear.) In the name of God, what bigoted casuist could have induced him to support the measure in the -maoner he did ? He called on their Lordships to vote for the Bill, because their Constitution wasgood for nothing, and commerce had been ruined. He declared that the House of Commons ought to be reformed, and that this was a ground upon which the Bill should go to d second reading. He said that the country Right Reverend been go verne d b y a f ou l o li garc h y , an d that it ought to be destr o y e d. H e t h ey appea l e d to t h e 8 0124, led be teW awe tint they bed ben the formes .;~;.. ( PRICE 7D ) rapine and plunder. That was the ground on which e Catholic Nobleman called on Protestant Peers to support this Bill. If he had been treated in the same manner, what would he have said ? Would be have been where he now sat, if they had told him "you are a Catholic,' Ind we don't believe you ; profess yourself ready to make oaths, but we know you mean to break them ; you profess yourself ready to support the revenues of the Pro eestant Church, but we know you mean to destroy them ?" Where would have been the end of the thunders fulminating against him ? Such language might do very well to provoke an auto da fe at Lisbon, or to re-kindle the flames of Smithfield, but those who had given him such advice, had given what was unworthy of a Christisa man or an English states man. Yet these were the grounds on which the Right Rev, Bench were called on to support this Bill. But he would leave the Noble Earl to his own conscience, and to the feel ings which the couutry would entertain of a cause that was defended by such arguments.—(Hear, hear.) They were proud of those who had earned their coronets by carrying the banner of England to victory. They were prond of those who had raised them selves from the honourable situation of English mer chants, and of those who had raised themselves to twee in that House by their proficency in the fine arts. Could the Noble Earl wish for a more democratic aristocracy ? Then why should the House be Reformed ? Where was the nee-ssity of it? It was not the constitution that required to be remedied ; bet it was the revolutionary character of the sentiments of the people. He would conclude by hoping this Bill would meet with a Red Sea in that House, and he buried for ever, so that it might no longer fright the isle from its propriety.—(Much cheering from the Oppsition.) The Earl of SHREWSBURY exp'ained. The Earl of RADNOR :LA Lord TETNHAM rose together. The cries for Lord Raduor beiug more prominent, Lord Teynhaua gave wry. The Earl of RADNOR said that he was anxicus to say a few words upon the observations that fell from the Noble Deice in relation to the speech of the Noble Earl near him (Shrewsbury). His duty had been much lessened by the explanation made by the Noble Earl. Al. he would say, therefore, was, that he certainly understood the Noble Earl to say in his former speech that which he het said to-night in his explanation._(Cries of Hear, hear.) He did not understand him to charge the Bishops with tyranny and spoliation, but that they bad uniformly sup ported Governments who had deserved that character. Much of the debate which had already taken place bed given him great pleasure, for all the Noble Lords who were against the second reading of t' e Bill seemed to have Intel a hankering after the Committee that they could not refrain from making speeches which had nothing at all to do with the second tending of the Bill, but were only fit for the Com mittee. The speech of the Noble Duke went entirely into the det.ils of the Bill, and this certainly was not a proper time for their consideration, hut in Committee. The Noble Earl opposite, who had preceded him, found great fault with some Noble Lords who had stated their intention of • voting for the second reading, on the ground of inconsistency. Consistency was a very good thing in itself, but on some occasions it was ale necessary to look at the changes of times, when consistency might well be called obstinacy. Besides inconsistency was not altogether confined to that (the Ministerial) side of the House. Some of the Noble Lords who bad made that charge seemed to have forgotten the Catholic question. The Duke of Wellington, when he was Freinier, made a speech strongly against those claims which was very much applauded, and in a very short time after that great heal ing measure was brought in and carried by the Noble Duke, assisted by many of their Lordship., who were loudest in their applause of his former speech, and who were now such advocates for consistency. The Noble Duke who had spoken lest bad gone very full into the 'details of the Bill—he had dwelt much upon the number of houses in certain boroughs, and on the amount of the taxes in others ; but this was not taking the subject in a spirit of fairnese— it was what be would call trickery—for the Noble Duke was perfectly aware that the principle of the Bill went upon houses and taxes taken together. With respect to the imputations which had been cast out, that all the alterations intended by this Bill arose from interested motives, it appeared to him that it was utterly impossible for Noble Peers on the other side of the House or even the Noble Duke who had just spoken, to conceive it possible that Noble Lords sitting in that House could lend themselves to such low and paltry proceedings.—(hear.) Such imputations put him in mind of a speculative book which he was reading the other day, in which the writer stated that it was difficult for men to conceive how others could act upon any other principle than these which they felt themselves capable of grappling with. He thought the Noble Lords who had imputed such unworthy motives to others, must, indeed, be perfectly acquainted with the principles from which those unworthy motives pro ceeded themselves ; for how persons in the high situa tion those were filling, who had been adverted to, could condescend to act upon such motives, appeared to him im possible to be explained. Ile repelled such insinuations altogether.—(Hear, hear.) There had been some state ments made by the Noble Duke last night which alto gether with respect to the present Bill were erroneous. In speaking about the 101. voters, that Noble Duke had stated positively that every lodger who paid 6d., 7d., Sd, or 9d., a night for his lodging would have a vote. Such an observation was totally without founda tion. You might change your residence as often as you pleased previous to the registration ; but you must he rated, and how by possibility could a lodger, who changed his lodging every night, paying 7d. or SI for that lodging, be so rated. The thing was impossible. It was well known that for those who were lodgers even for a twelvemonth the owners of the house al ways paid the rates and not them. So much for such argu ments. A Noble Earl had quoted last night a speech of the Earl of Chatham's, delivered in 1770.—(flear.)— " But we must consider these boroughs ; the infirmities of our Constitution would be like the infirmities of the body—we must bear therm with patience, and submit to cure them if we can, as amputation of the limb might be death. Now he, (Earl Radnor) could quote a speech of that Noble Earl's, delivered, he admitted, at an earlier period, and therefore, it might be stated he had changed his opinions, in which that Noble Earl had said, speaking of the representation of the colonies through decayed horoughe—(Hear, hear)—these boroughs are what is called the rotten part of the Constitution. They cannot continue for three centuries, and, if they do not drop, they must be amputated. Now, it had been said that the colonies could not be represented in the House of Commons, but through the medium •of those boroughs. Why, a Noble Marquess, the son of the Noble Duke opposite (Buckingham) advocated strongly the interests of the colonies, and did he sit in the House of Commons for a rotten borough ? No, he sit in that House as the representative of the county of Buckingham. A Noole Earl who presided at a meeting that was held a few days ago in the City of London on the subject of the colonies, and for a lung time before lie came to that title, which he filled in so distinguished a manner, sat in the House of Commons as the repreeentive of the county of Cork. There were other Hun. Members also who warmly advocated the interests of time colonies, who sat in that House, but not as the representatives of rotten boroughs. He had quoted these instances for the purpose of ,hewing how fallacious it was to suppose that those who were possessed of colonial property could not find any means of having their interests supported in the House of Commons without having recourse so that rotten and disgraceful part of the Constitution. By what law—by what legal enactments—did t h e N o bl e Duke possess the power he stated he had of sending Mem bers to Parliament? It was impossible to find out. He po d houses, and might in that way have an in fluence, and might, indeed, exercise a right in the election of m em b ers of Parliament. In the result, the Noble Duke seemed to do no more than to draw a fair inferenc e which was, that he possessed power from his possession of the houses, but the question was whether certain Peers had a tight to send two Members to Parliament, and whether the Members were not likely to be influenced by the parties sending them to Parliament—and that that power and influence should be sacred and hereditary, for the Noble Duke's father possessed it before bitn.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear.) There was no law which he (Lord Radnor) was aware of that entitled the Noble Duke to any such right. This Bill would net deprive their Lordships of their tenants,—it would not deprive them of their right to a ly of their rents, bat it might deprive them of that to which t v law they had no title whatever. A strange argument 644 We sni t eed repealed over and over wits ( No. 1 2.:35 IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL IL Mr. BERNAL and others brought up the Navy Civil Service Regulation litll, the Dublin Nisi Prius Hills, the Irish 13('King Bill, and some private Bills. Earl RODEN presented a petition from a person in Ross-shire, against the system of education in Ireland. He also presented a petition from Sir Harcourt Lees, a per son well known in Ireland, against the Reform Rill. The petition stated, that the Bill in prozress through the House, under the denomination of a Bill for Reform, if passed into a law, would insure, with others, the return of a revolutionary assembly, composed principally of English revolutionists and Irish C ttholic priests ; and the petition, in behalf of the infant (laughter of the late Duke of Kent, Priuc'ss Victoria, pr: ye that their Lord ships would reject the Bill. The petitioners were confident that if it were passed into a law it woald,insure the destruc tion of the church, the dissolution of the House of Lords, a general revolution, anarchy in both islands, and the establishment of a republican instead of a mqn trchical Government. The Noble E trl was aware that their Lordships might consider some of the statements in this petition as extraordinary—statements coming from an individuAl who presumel to come before the House ; but that same individual had often stated things respecting Roman Catholicism equally extraordinary, which had turned out to be true, and what had been the effect of that most ob noxious measure. Lord TEYNHAM objected to the reception of such a pe tition as this, and moved that it be rejected. The Duke of SUSSEX would submit to whatever the House might decide upon, but he did conceive that a peti tion containing the assevtion of any individuals presenting themselves before their Lordships, that the object of pas sing the Rcform measure was to set aside the succession to the Throne of the Princess Victoria was an outrage to the H .use, an insult to the public, and ought not to be received. Earl RODEN desired that the Clerk of the Howe would read the petition through. The petition was then read verbatim. Earl RODEN conceived that the petition merely stated the opinions of the petitioner—that the petitioner was a man of very great discernment, and he had a right, like any other subject, to come and lay his opinions in re spectful terms before their Lordship• ; therefore, he could see no reason why this petition should be reieeted.—(Hear, hear.) Earl GREY was not at all surprised that the Royal Duke should hare been struck with the terms in which the petition was couched ; but he (the Noble Earl) was certainly not prepared to assert, whatever might be the absurdity of the language of the petition—the almost insanity of the petitioner, that the petition ought, on that account, to he rejected. The pe titioner did not, in the least, impute to their Lord ships the character of revolutionists; it imputed that cha racter to some persons whom that petition did not name. He hoped there were not any in that House to whom the description applied,—to whomsoever it might be applied, it did not seem to him that the petition ought to be rejected. At the same time had such a petition been put unto his hands he would have declined to have pre sented it. Lord TEYNHA9I said, that after what had been stated by the Noble Earl he should not think it proper to put the House to a division on the question of rejecting this petition ; ther-fore he begged to withdraw his motion, at the satnetitne, he certainly had given the Noble Esrl on the otber side of the House (Earl Roden) credit for better judgment than to have presented such a petition as this.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from certain freemen of Sudbury against Reform. REFORM BILL. The order of the day having been read for resuming the adjourned debate on the Reform Bill, The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose and said it was not his intention to detain their Lordships for many minutes, but he could not allow this debate to close without stating the grounds on which he intended to vote upon the Bill now before them—a Bill so important, that not only the best interests of the country depended upon it, hut even their •ery political existence itself. Widely as their Lordships might differ with respect to the important Bill on the table—widely as they might disagree upon its expediency and sound policy, and upon the benefits ultimately to be derived from it, should it receive the sanction of the three Powers of the State, he felt it must be their unani mous wish to bring this most momentous question to a speedy and final settlement, is order to allay that spirit which had unfortunately been excited by its agitation, and to restore public peace which had ben disturbed in so many parts of the country to the destruction of property and loss of life to an extent which would for ever leave a stain upon the age in which they lived, and which it would be ♦ery long 'ere, if ever, the country recovered. Of all political questions that could be brought before the country, there was none which more required calm and dispassionate consideration than this. —(Herr.) As yet, what were the circumstances under which it had been brought forward?—(Hear, hear.) It was a measure which, from its very nature, must, at any time, and under any circumstances, in which the country might have been placed, have dicited a strong feeling in its favour on its very first announcement, and for this reason, that nine-tenths of those whom it professed to benefit fancied they were deprived of something which would advantage them, and which they might derive by its means, But the time at which it was brought forward gave the Bill a tenfold greater weight than it would have had if brought torward at any other period of our history. He would not detain their Lordships by proving that which he was sure no man was disposed to deny—he meant the great difficulties and distress under which every interest of the country laboured at the time the Bill was introduced. Fie would not occupy their time further in endeavouring to trace the source of theme difficulties. He would not ask whether they aroee from that taxation which it was necessary to enforce in order to pay the interest of a debt incurred to carry on that long and arduous war, which had been designated by so many opprobrious terms by the Noble Lord who spoke from the cross bench, but which he had contended was entered into to secure the very existence of the country and the maintenanc e of those principles with out which no society could exist. tie would not stop to inquire whether these difficulties had arisen from false no tions of the political economists of the day, who, prefer t ing foreign markets which consumed not a tenth part of our manufacture, had brought bankruptcy and ruin upon the home market. He would not dwell, however, upon the injudicious rejection of the pray , rl of the people to inquire into tha cause of their distress, as it was sufficient for him to show that great distress did, in fact exist among all classei. The agriculturists whom he had talked to on the announcement of this Bill, hailed it because they hoped it would bring better prices ; the freeholders hailed it because they expected it would oc casion a reduction of taxes upon the necessaries of ti'e ; and the manufacturer hailed it, because he ex pected protecting duties and expected foreign com merce. In facr, all classes that he had conversed with, feeling the pressure of distress, looked to this Bill to give them relief. He would now make a few otyerva tions upon the Bill itself ; and although he might be charged with inconsistency, as lie had been by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack in his able speech in the month of October last, yet would he fear. lessly declare his present opinion.—( Hear, bear.) No man more admired political consistency than he did. He was not anxious, however, to support his consistency of opinion at the expense of truth sad justice ; at the same time, he could not consent that he was liable at present to that charge. The Noble Duke re minded him that he kad declared in favour of Reform. He protested he was as much a Reformer now as ever ; but that surely did not imply that he should accede to all measures of Reform, however sweeping i n pr i n. ••ip'e, that might be brought forward. With re mpect to the Bill now before the House, he would h meetly and candidly confess that while the opinions he before entertained were unaltered respecting the necessity of mine degree of Parliamentary Reform, he could not look to it without alarm. his former opinions prepared him to give representatives to the new and great towns pos. 'Posing wealth, property, commercial weight and importance, md which h,(l grown up to that state since the present representation of the country had been esta. •fished. He would take the Parliamentary influence s•hich had fallen into the hands of individuals decayed boroughs, in order that he might thus transfuse And diotributo it among the property of the country. but C im,pl Noble Lords on the opposite itiast of the Howie a., that if this Bill were carried Government could not be carried on. It appeatil, to Mm that a great allacy bad always accompantei thie argume n t.— 'Loud cheering.) /t appeartirl'to biro Noble Lord; ',ad always used this argument jest sce if before thfe:4(i Will bad been introdneed the *aunt!" had been in I' state of periiot tot:gym:re, perfect: happiness, and every thing had been going on extremely well to all parties. He begged to say this mei tet so.—(Hear, hear.) Noble Lords said the Government ckra/d not go on with this Bill cotv4d the Government go on without it ? —(Loud sewers,) Did the late Government go ens rithout it ? Was it not in cansequence—was it not from -.lse want of this, or of some sack Bill that that r4overnment had fallen from the hands of the NW.. Duke opposite? (Load ahem.) La :the coarse of the debate in Oct. last, a great many explanatioes were at te npted to be given by tke Noble Duke to chew that it roe not on ateoert of his statement reepeetiee Re form, that he bed withdrawn from the of c* of Prime Minister.—(Hear, bear.) But it never appeared to him (Lord Radnor) that the Nohle Duke had succeeded 'smoking out his proposition. Ou the 2d of Neveinher, th e Noble Duke had made a declaration io their Lord ships' House. that so long as tie occepi-el ti e office of one of his Mtjesty's Counsellor., no measure shenld be introduced for altering the system of P.:I-Fomenter , representation. The declaration was to this effect, though he (Lord Radnor) could not pledge him self to the exact words in which it was uttered On the 15th Nov. there wane debate in the House of Com mons, upon which the Government were beat by a majority. Three days afterwards there stood au entry on the books () the Hone-r of Conarnone, notice of a motion for a Reform of Parlumant, but before the motion could be brought or on the folLiwing Tuesday, the 6th day after Ministers had been beaten by a majority, the Noble Duke resigned the stale of office, and stated to their Lordships over and over again, that he did so be cause he had no lcager power over Ike House of Commons, Well, then, it was in consequence of that question of Re form that the Noble Duke had lust the Government.— (Loud cheers.) The Noble Duke mast be satisfiiid that this was hie own statement so the Hese*, *eel be (Lord Radnor) new nederitood the Noble Date to assent to the truth of that statement. The Dupe of WELLINGTON, el we steel-Oar:4 in a luw term /tem" the tehle, *llia be daik:reil not to understood as useenting v . , any prvposition of Lord's. Lad RADNOR sa;il that e scents the Noble Duke was appreitenAve whoa vas in of's.ze that the qurs:.ion of Reform w.asld it carriM in the House of Commons. It was spite clear thers , f9re thlt the Noble Duke thought that it w., , J !.1 t,e for bin' to ostry on the Go ...4.r0.0..nt ;. hoot a system of Reform ; consequently it unfair for Noble Lords on the other midc of the FI uNr to ady that Govern ment could go on without reform vi yen it Stoi ey:drnt it had not been able, anui was not abl.e to go en without Reform. (Loud cheers.) It was utterly imposs , hle to slippiest that Cs...vernment could procesd without RAOrm. Tile Noble Duke had said, that the ceontry had been Thrown into great confusion by tlai , this rrnatsure ci RefOrtn. And the whole responsibiloy thereof rested with the N,,ble Earl at the head o f th e G o y enemee t. You , h e (Lord Radnor) did not admit that all the responsibility rested with the Noble Earl.--(C.:stis.) He ;sad said se over and over again ; and as he 'aail alreedy stat , d, a great mistake had always run through the whole of the aria• meat on the other side of the Howe, inailialleh as they had assumed that all things were quiet and peaceable lm fore the Noble Earl canoe into office, and before tile Reform Bill wits introduced. He begged to call tack to the recol lection of their Lordships what the state of the country' was when the Noble Duke weld out aml the Noble Earl Earl went into office. Many of the counties of this country were in a state of civil war; sod it AV3to said even by the Noble Earl himself, that the very first act he did after down to that House and taking his seat on the Treasury Bench, was to go to a Co , incil to consider what could be adopted to allay the disturbances throughout the country; and he (Lord Radnor) always said that some steps ought to have been taken to wake the lioh:e Duke and th! late Government responsible for the then state of things, —(Cheers.) Consequently it was not correct to say that the present state of things was attributable to thrlioble Earl. The steps his Gevernment bad taken very Rona put an end to these disturbances which had en siiiigrace;cl the eountry.—(Hear, hear.) Why such steps had not been taken it was impossible for him (Lord Radnor) to say ; but he could not but think, that if roper measures had been taken judicionaly and vigoessutly before the dieter . - ances went to the height to which they extended, they might in a great measure have been prevented.—(Cbeers ) At all events the country had to thank the Noble Earl, and certainly not the Noble Duke for putting down the disturbances. But then it had bees said a treat excitement had been oseuioned by this Reform mesetsrh, Anil teat his Majesty's Ministers had ante illy done every thing in their power to increase the aeitatian en the sub ject of Reform.—(Cries of " Hear, bear.") This charge the Noble Lord consider..d to be totally unfounded. The first day his Noble Friend e...ine into office, he came down to the House and stated the cuudi tions on which, by the king's maimand, he had accepted it, one of which was, that he was to introduce a Reform into Parliament.—(l - 1-iar.) On that occasion a Noble Lord, on the presentation of a petition had stated his opinions of a plan which he suggested, bet which he (Lord Radnor) expressed his disapprobaiiun of, as being very unsatisfactory to the people. Nothing was known of the plan of Government for several months, and certainly nothing was lone by the Ministers to excite any feeling among the people. But it wasr.well known that the public feeling was ripe thrcugbout the country is favour of Reform.--fChetri.) In the county with which he was connected (Wiltshire}, a public meeting was held, notwithstanding the strong opposition there was to it by the Tory party, who held several rotten boroughs in that county, at which there way a unanimous and strong opinion expressed in' favour of Reform, During the period from the time of Ministers coming into office, until the Bill was brought into the House of Commons, numerous petitions had been presented, praying fur Parliamentary Reform, and that of an extensive description. To say that all the excitement that had appeared in the country had been caused by Ministers, was most unfair and incorrect. But the Nut& Duke had said that that excitement had arisen out of the unfortunate events of July in Paris. Now it IS3 happ ned that the general election took place before the news of the proceedings at Paris had arrived, and therefore it was unfair to attribute the feeling which then pre vailed to those events.—(Hear, hear.) Every body was aware that at those elections, the feeling in favour of Reform predominated, more particularly at that for the county of York, for which his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had been elected. A*to what subsequently occurred, even the dissolution of Parliament bud year, was a matter of necessity imposed en the Government to enable them to carry their measures, and if that dipole tion had not taken place, the coneequeneee wort I have been very serious. With respect to the present question, he was of opinion that it was of the ntmett importance that it should be speedily set at rest.-(Loud cries of err, hear.) He had heard with looms surprise a Right Rev. Prelate state, that he hail taken the whole of the circumstances and itonseietnees jabs eemeideration, and he had made up hie mind to veoe against the Biil He hot every respect for that Right Rev. permits ; but how any person could bring himself to support the pr . cent system of electioas in this country, was to hiss most ex traordinary, when bribery, corroplon, driinkennees, and every species of vice were carried en. Would a y body say tit of he, or any o. h. r person, should have toe pow er ni nomi naiing two persons to sit in the 11.iu-e of Commons? But look at the vice, the hypocrisy, in sendinz those per sons there an.t railing tli.lll the rept-is • nt-eives o the people.—(Cheers.) It had heen said that the ten-pound clause would throw the whole repre eentation into the hands of the political unions, now instituted in all parts of the country, and that it WOU'd he used ktr the most deneerous purposes. He could not conceive that that remoitueney would he placed in the power of those uniens, and least of all toe such motives. The political tiniest of Bit mingle ire had ikon referred to, and it had kern objected that G !term:nest had received deputation, from that nniun. Many Noble Lords present knew Mr. Attwoed, wise was at the head of it ; but if he was riehtv informed, ti o Noble Duke opposite (Wellingten) when at the 1 e of Government had Limed, received a deputation from that Union, with Mr. Attwood at its head.— (Heir, hear.)- But those who opposed the ten-pound cause, imagined that the 101. voters wera all of one —(Hear, hear,)--and that they had no cant:xi. , with persons who paid 20/. or 301. rent. Look at Weetminster for instance, and he would ask low sonny of the 10/. voters were of the lower or& lb Some Noble Lords appeared to imagine that these who paid ten-pounds would vote one way, and those who paid twenty-pounds another way. —(He ar, bear.) Thea :is to the argument that ptreons connected with Gov e rnment could not under the Formed Biil he alsL vi get into Parliament, in proof of the contrary of Wirt tlMerit, he .worst refer t., the case of Mr. Fi,x ; rvf al bough a Minister, had been three times elected itif Wert:master ; a termer Lori cif tbt Admiralty bed Wes