The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, 1M47. - - ships, hote population meant by means of g of ,m e i t e ti gr n atio r n i d of the du. lie thought that .... , ,rice tram the Go , - • Lefore the tills h butcountryass wouldassistance n certainty the neat other te nd side td of the Atlantic, when the emigrant arrived there, he was sure would prove most beneficial. He thought were Government determined in rendering that assistance in the land of emigration, that the Irish landlords uniting together would make it more like colonisation than emigration, by gathering together different classes of the population, so that on the other side of the Atlantic each individual would most likely find a sphere at once to suit their energies and their ablilities. Much had bees said elsewhere of a poor-law for Ireland ;he believed there was a difficulty connected with the subject; but he was of opinion that whether it ought to be the English poor-law or not, the Irish landlords must be prepared to receive a poor • law sooner or later. He was still sanguine enough to believe that they would weather the storm, and intro duce an improved state of things in the country, from the experience of the present calamity. The Earl of RODEN was persuaded that the mea• sures introduced would tend to produce considerable benefit. He denied that the Labour-rate Act of last session was productive of any good. The works con structed under its provisions were entirely useless, and it was the cause besides of withdrawing the labourers from the cultivation of the soil. It was well known that in Ireland the labourers preferred to take employ ment in the public works, even when the remuneration they received was less than they could have obtained from the farmers ; and on this account he considered that the greatest possible circumspection should have been exercised in affbrding employment. He was sure the measures proposed would be received as boons by Ireland, and he should, therefore, give them his sup port. The Earl FITZWILLIAM was sorry that the Noble Lord, who was so discursive in his speeches, and who generally spoke de omnibus rebus et quibusdam aliis, was not in his place on that occasion. lie regretted that his Noble Friend was not present, as he (Lord Fitzwilliam) had pleasure in bearing his testimony, to the excellence of a recommendation made at the close of that Noble Lord's speech, in which he recommended that they should endeavour to induce the people of this country to abstain as much as possible from the con sumption of farinaceous food. With respect to what had fallen from his Noble Friend behind him (Lord Devon) respecting the Labour-rate Act, he (Earl Fitz william) had to observe, that although that measure did not work in the way in which it could have been wished, still it had effected much good, and he would ask those Noble Lords who made too strong grounds of objection to it, in what condition would the country have been in if that Act had not passed? That measure, he considered, was a test for the landlords of Ireland ; for if they did not employ their destitute labourers on their own properties, this Act made it compulsory to afford them employment on the public roads, and he there fore denied that it was a positive evil. He believed that in a general point of view the Act, though not providing for works of a useful nature, still was of great benefit, and it ap peared to him very evident that it was a means of re lieving a very considerable portion of the distress. With respect to the measures opened this evening by the Noble Marquis on the Treasury bench, he begged to say that they did as much credit to the wisdom of her Majesty's Government as they would, he was sure, prove efficient to meet the emergercy tor which they were intended. There were some parts of them to which exception might be taken, but he sincerely believed that to some extent they would grapple with the evils they were intended to meet. He must now say a word for the landlords of Ireland ; and he would say with respect them, that if the whole responsibility and duty of alle viating the distresses of the people of Ireland, were to be cast on one class, and that class the landlords, he would say Parliament and Government would do a great injustice to that class. He would ask, why put it on that class alone ? Were there no persons there possessed of wealth ? Were there no persons in Ireland but the landlords to be engaged in that work ? He did not think that such a course was a just one, and he would go further and say, that it should not be cast on Ireland alone. He would ask why Ireland was in such a condition ? He would ask why Ireland was as it is? He would ask wealthy London—he would ask England? There could be but one answer. It was the original tyranny of England which produced it. He said it was England which produced it, and he had no hesitation in saying that England should relieve it. He called upon their Lordships to relieve them. If 22,000 paupers were relieved by the rate-payers of Liver pool in one day, what an awful disclosure did it make of the calamity which prevailed, and of the necessity which existed for alleviating it. With regard to the reclamation of waste land, that was, in his opinion, the kind of work precisely from which they ought most cautiously to abstain from all interference. He very much feared that such an under taking on the part of Government would not be pro ductive of the anticipated benefit, as he believed that Government were not the parties who could most effec tively carry out such a measure. He thought the greatest possible difficulty would ensue if they adopted this measure, and he took that opportunity of inti mating to them his apprehensions regarding it. He had another view to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention before he sat down. It might be an eidolum in his own mind, but he thought that the entire system of railway management should be in the hands of the Government. Sure he was, however, that in Ireland, if Government would undertake the construction of rail ways such a course would be of the greatest possible ad vantage. If they did undertake the construction of railways, a better system of railways would be intro duced, than it the conflicting claims, views, and interests of private parties were interwoven with them, and there would be besides a more beneficial effect upon the em ployment of labour. It was by the operation of such a system of railway construction that they could hope to change the character, position, and location of the rural population of Ireland, and it was for this reason that he most earnestly directed their Lordships' attention to the subject. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL said he was not at that late period of the night going to test their Lord ship's patience by entering in detail into the history of Ireland—(A laugh)—but one thing that he should infer from this history was, that ever since Ireland had been under the yoke of England —at all events up to the time of the union—the influence of the former country had been exerted to crush the trade and commerce of Ireland. The truth of this assertion was shown by the provisions of the Act of the 6th of George 1., the obnoxious influence of which was not repealed until the middle of the reign of George 111 He had been informed, and in fact had seen in one instance, that where a few old cabbage leaves were thrown into the mud they were eagerly seized by the f p . a a r c sot t pa t rt h ei e a t t oorr s s i d x teos o tsi u ut u t ptpi o oo f nr itaghnhadtt was a aa b as o s ui of f e p r m s a starving wretches wh o were l o i ter i ng about. It was a s misery? eni possible ? Ireland or ht eh ye were Irish n d not. According to the valuation of Mr. Griffiths, the rental of Ireland was 12,715,0001, per annum, and was now about 13,000,0004 per annum in round numbers. The amount of bonds, mortgages, tee., on landed pro perty in Ireland, was about eight years' purchase, or 100,000,000/., and that at 15 per cent. made 5,000,000/., and the law expenses and other incidental charges, besides children's fortunes in marriage settlements, would make, beside a total including the interest, 10,415,0001., leaving the balance of 13,000,0001. for the support of all this distress. Was it possible, with less than three mil lions per annum, to support a starving population and themselves also ? The average cost of maintaining a pauper was Is. 6d. per week, and that, taking the popu lation of Ireland— at least all the poor—would give 12,000,0001 per annum, to be paid out of less than three millions per annum. The landlords were also placed in a very bad position in consequence of the liability of the tenants to pay up their rents ; and therefore it would be only an act of justice to prevent the fore closure of the mortgages for a certain term—for a term of three years—so as to enable them to have some chance of bettering themselves.—( Hear, hear.) The present system of letting land was such, that a farm which forty years ago was in the possession of one person, was now divided among forty, and in many cases no rent whatever could be obtained. The fourth of the produce of the land was that which ought to go fam Th il e ies p , eo a p n l d e otfhilsrewlaansd tmhearrciaeudseyoofuntgh,eansdupgeort. for rent, but it se ld om h appene d that they realised so large families, abunt'ant population of that country. There were 690,000 some odd hundred farms in Ireland; of these, 310,000 were under five acre; in extent, 152,000 be tween five and ten acres, 79,000 not exceeding thirty acres, and but 47,000 exceeded the latter extent. Such was the minute divisions of farms which had taken place. He was confident that if something was not done this year, in eet:ing seed potatoes and oats, there would be no crop next year, and matters would be worse than they were at present. The Government ought to take this question into its most serious consideration. Having stated thus much, he would reserve what further he had to say till a future occasion. The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not intend say ing much now, as a future opportunity would be given of discussing the question. Still he had a remark or two to make on the address of the Noble Marquis (the Nlarquis of Lansdowne). The Noble Marquis said the Government intended to advance sums of money as loans to the landlords to improve their estates, but he (the Marquis of Westmeath) did not think many of them could take advantage of that, unless different arrangements were made respecting its application. At present the intention of the best disposed landowner could be defeated by any litigious person. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would bear him out in saying, that if an injunction were applied for to restrain waste land, it would at once be granted, but in many instances the suing out of an injunction would eat up the fee simple of an estate. He was before Lnrd Devon's Commission in 1E44, and he stated there that if a ne w mo d e o f occupation was not struck' out ' b covnesyi-,elearresd, be'fatlilfinhgisbsaucukgoenstitohnesShtaadtebteoefnetehdetnhaeitnte. the fi law, the wh o l e country would, in a period of less thany to, the cal am iti es which they had been subjected to ° would not hav e h a d suc h fr i ghtful results. H e ha d held a vonference w ith some of the legal authorities upon subject. There were present the Lord Chancellor, the they should agreed re b ed es m te e d rel) th , that injunctionnt(lLeilei.arlitexopfeaio; E. Sugden, Jieige Jackson, and ;air. Blackburne c latteredn c reduced with him, and he was sure no one could prove that he was in the wrong ; but Mr. Blackburne was made Master of the Bolls, and there th e matter ended. (Laughter.) He thanked the House for their attention, but he could not refrain from saying as much as he did. Earl GREY said that he was sorry to prolong this discussion, and he would only do so for a short time, mere especially at that hour, when the House had been reduced to such a small number; but as some remarks had been made in the course of the debate to which leetion. --- But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no , tit :e. He did see t h at t h ere was lik e l y to b e a gr eat Was %age for one class t.,1 „Ci3,::11,--1 - 110 -ti. t be a large staff of that • vs for superintendents of the Poblie corks, sup eri superintendents of leheurers, farm overseers, tas.,estendeets of police, and he did not know how many 'm • Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work ,I ; _not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one 0 11 g-that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was eziti'aeterelass °f pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have i ent. Then there was another subject, which was worthy of consideration, end that was, how was the If that of the millions of these loans to be paid? tar at interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property- Ke Well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland. led not see w h y t h e man who hail 1401. a year should be leelopted from the charge, for the safety and protection which er e . a rloyed from the State, any more than he o ho had 160/. ither did he see any reason why a line should lse drawn in a se a u l i r e e r o e t line down the Bristol channel to separate mortgages, for ers a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was erred, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage : gain. -. (Laughter.) H e did n ot mean to make any charges i th snst the I ris h l andlord which he d i d not al l ege a l so aga i n st Isn a o3oo e English prop r i e t or . Wh en Mr. Pitt gave a loan of the • in 1792, and again for another of 6,000,0001. in 1 757, t e Elaine principle was adopted on both occasions, that of a lcaking the principal responsibilities and burdens form benefits ira i dva u t a - es. e Again, he conceived, that further, the sooner the !:"try removed their measure from the character of a per ,lent measure, th e b e tt er . If it were to he made a permanent theiaa c aret it was not at all necessary that that should occur no Year. They might have a temporary measure tak and wait to see the turn which events would e e Then there was the consideration, also, of the interest e In a year and six months, the interest being secured on the Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did w ar Lord G ranv ill e i n t h e same y ear , con tradicting the opinions ( 41 he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring ! 1 w Lord A s hb ur t on ), a l so en t er t a i ne d the same opinion. In t he terms of that l oan it was expressly stipulated, that no Corn issioner, or any M em b er o f P ar li amen t i n e ither House, shou ld receive o n e f ar thing of the Exchequer loan, and he tru sted e th a t some suc h se lf-d eny i ng c l ause wou ld be in s erted in he Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend would not take anything.—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear," from e Marquis of L ans d o wne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in Europe, and Zje who did not need such assistance. — ( Laughter. ) ne great a d van t age w ould be, to relieve the tenants for life from the trammels in which they were now held, for it might pr o ve of immense benefit to those who were yet nooorre But it was not money but food that the Irish people required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the want of food. They wanted corn, meal, something to eat, which money could not immediately procure. Now, on the west coast of Ireland there was an abundant supply of some of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send nets and tackle to secure the food required by famishing pillions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob tain an abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri tious food that any one could desire. This would save the corn and meal. He was sorry to say, that he was old enough to recollect the scarcity of the year 1785 a and he thought that there ought to be a legal covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread was placed on the table, and the servants and every one else was debarred from touching it as much as if it had been gold. No one was allowed to touch it, but the master of the family and then he dealt it out in restricted quantities to all around and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost. B onie such rule might be adopted now , and it would p rove highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit II a restraint were put upon the use of pastry in the consump tion of which a great quantity of flour wa s used, and still further benefit would accrue if the higher classes who enjoyed luxuries, and had resources to which their poorer neighbours could not attain, would refrain from using bread but use soups, fish, or any other nutriment with vegetables instead. He had taken the liberty to throw out this suggestion, from his recollection of 1800. He could assure their Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial. He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount of supply ? The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it would be hilpossible at present to state how much. Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion that the Government should go ransacking all the granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think they should have established depots. But, coming to the immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his, Who had visited the scene of some of these appalling statements of distress, and he stated that the greatest suffering did really exist. They should consider the Peculiar circumstances of the people of Ireland. There were 3,500 individuals who, during the time they wthreere otherwise unempl o yed, used to scrape toge manure, and by the assistance of this were enabled to drag out a miserable and useless ex istence, but even of that they were now deprived. estates the Government would give their attention beggedthespeeially the system of squatting. On his own he had an instance of the inveterate disposition, .for that when he was building a house for one of his arrangement for he found that the tenant had made an f-orrahnagveinln g en h t is not for pulling down the old tenement, but iu it. He (Lord Dysart) was obliged to refuse to have the building completed, unless he would agree Lor to the old building being pulled down. DEVON N heir from Lorddon D e E o V f Noble Lordthought, after what he had heard what had mustLo - rds ' hips that night, that the ofhave been totally neglectful passed under his own eyes ; for any_ one hearin g th at Noble Lord, and knowing not hi ng oflrish legi s l at i on, would have thought that the B r i t i s h Government for the first time had begun to legislate, and, moreover, had all at once made a demand for a loan for Irish purposes. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, spoke the feelings of every honest landlord when _fleera,dreitted the obligation rested on landed pro perty to mitigate the wants..of.Lhe poor. But the diffi culty weighing upon the 'aszbjeet was, that the landlord did y not always represent th'd laid,'And then if he did not e the means of meeting. this .obligations which fell °Pon him as a landlord, of cosiest, he could not be ex- Peoted t o d o i t. But so -far -- frodr - the proposal of the Government being novel of, seisms, Ike recollected that as far b ac k as the fi rst Labottrtlite act for Ireland, the Government of that day adsfierited money for the " im provement, cultivation, and draTnage, and otherwise the improvement of lands." Such4ese the words in which the Government of that day lutd•made an advance of 111 °Iley to the Irish landlords; and he (Lord Devon) was sorry that the Noble Lord who had spoken on the sub ject had not exercised more industry in relation to the s ubject —the same industry which he was accus tomed to show on other subjects. The Noble Lord, in his o bservations had spoken of the classes who would be affected by the failure of the potato crop ; but he mu st tell him that all classes were affected by it more or less, The lower classes scarcely ever saw money ; betweea the farmer and the lower classes money hardly ever passed. The farmer in Ireland had a great aversion to bringing out money to pay for labour , for he knew not the value to him of improvements on his farm, or of having his fields well cultivated ; and, therefore he hardly over employed the labourer at all. Moreover, speaking of this subject, and the total neglect of cultiva tion,he knew some farmers who had got money for their last year's crops, and they had actually deposited that money in the savings banks, and then thrown themselves for employment on the public works. He said he had beard much abuse heaped during the discussion that night, on the Labour rate Act of last session; for his part he could not join in it; that Act was passed at a time of emergency and under pecnliar circumstances. He said he was not able to be present at the discussion of that measure last year, but he did not find by the public records, that there was much discus- Sion on the subject, or that there was any great opposi tion, or that those who now abused it for,evil results had made any opposition to its passing•—(Hear, hear.) What, he asked, was then the position of Irish land lords? Many persons in that country made a general demand for employment; for at that time the want of food Was not so much felt as the want of employment to enable them to buy it with.—(Hear, hear.) At that time there were the two Drainage Acts, the Agricultural as well as the Public Drainage Act Was in operation, but yet beyond these means something More was thought necessary, and therefore the Labour rate Act was introduced, and passed, to give employ ment to the necessitous. They had heard that Act de scribed as useless and positively mischievous. He did not agree with such a condemnation of it ; the unem ployed had gained the means of a livelihood engaged in the construction of public roads, and he believed that those employed as overseers had not selected even a h'andred perches that would he useless; nor would they, ha was sure, make such a selection. He had a letter in T ut hand which he had received from a gentleman in " L reo.nd, and in that letter the writer attributed tht tr angtz . llity of the people in his district to having had the opporeinity of employing the people at an early part of the season en the public works. Such had been one of the eerest. 5..,3 uuell said generally in souse companies, why could not the landlords themselves employ the people on reproductive works—for example, railways, and such like—without any aid from Government. He asked, what was the position of the Irish landlord ? But he would not go into the difficulty of the position of an Irish landlord on that occasion. Thi s must b e o b v i ous, that i f the Labour-rate Act had not beets passed at the time it was, the destitution and distress which would have ensued must have been vast—greatly more aggravated than the existing evils. He begg e d to make one suggestio n to the Government. He said, i t was a question with how far a person might be able t o protect himself against m lvNa ?n3 further increased taxation. The Go n' Government r • a that if any one would not take a loan t o be employed on reproductive works, then he must be subjected to the taxes imposed upon the electoral division. But he (Lord Devon) wished that a division was made which was more select. It had been contended by some that if they employed the people on their own town-land, they ought to be free from further taxation. That was not the question, for that was really giving a premium to the man who had cleared his town-land. But his proposition Was this —the taxes imposed by Government on an elec toral division would amount to so much ; he wished, if his, for instance, and two more, wished to take a loan Or give employment in proportion to the number or "eras they possessed in the electoral division, that they should be free from further taxation. As to the subject o waste lands, which had occupied the attention of the Government and their Lordships's House, he was of Pinion that th e app li cat i on o f t h e l oa n to this purposet Would be more profitable and more usefully made than many other purpose , e and that, too, not with a view ,re covering th em f or t h e l ocat i on o f c ottiers, but fer allotting them out into large farms, which would be ad antageously cultivated both for this caintry and for of 4niono } A Noble Lord had suggested the ndvanceinent ivi Le ' upon railw a y projects, a mode e hick e lit good or not, but compared with other, th e rec l amat i on of wasterlands as this i t s h e c) (l ff e.. e : ll,fl e f i. sale security a n d goo d remunerat i on, he city preferr e d t h e last. He approved generally merit measure s proposed by the Gover nmen t, w hi c h had amongothersthat they pr o p ose d to meet th e e vils of v ar i ous methods, all of which would tend to give a stimulus to labour and employment. But, one among the others deserved the attention of their Lord he felt it imperative to reply, he trusted they would allow him their attention for the few moments be would tresp2ss upon their indulrence. He alluded to what was very improperly cahe.l the Labour-rate Act. Ile thought that a great majority of Noble Lords had pro• nouncd the strongest sentence of condemnation on tha Act, and certainty, by the last of these Noble Lords the impression might have been conveyed of a grave censure on her Majesty's Government for want of com mon foresight and providence in this matter. Now he could not help thinking that if they looked to the period when this Act was passed, they would come to the conclusion that the implied censure on her Majestys Government was undeserved. The Noble and Learned Lord said that this Act was passed in a great hurry after the 15th August, and he concluded that the advanced period of the session was proof suffi cient that the measure had been ill-digested. That measure was a measure authorising presentment of public works precisely of the same nature as the pre vious Act. Half the money was to be advanced from local sources, and half from the British Treasury. This was brought in last January, and large use was made of these presentments for public works, and upwards of 1,300,0001. was given for these works. So great were these works felt to be of advantage, that great complaints were made from districts where those works were not begun. But this was a misapplication of the fund, for the money was granted for the relief of distress, and for relief of distress alone, and not for public works at all ; and great abuses were com mitted in the employment of persons who ought never to have been put upon these works at all. Yet notwithstanding these abuses the object was fully attained, and the people were so relieved that they were better off in the summer of last year. There was the testimony of the Catholic clergy that such was the case, and there was mere money paid into the savings' banks than for years before. Ile was credibly informed, that up to the middle of August the prospects of the potato crop were of the brightest character, but all at once the blight seemed to come over the whole of the crop. Was it, then, unreasonahle that her Majesty's Government should pass a measure to meet the evil? They did so. They renewed the measure of the previous year, but they obviated the evil which had formerly been endured. It was found that the abuse of the presentments for public works had been occa sioned by the desire to obtain roads where they were wanted. The delay in the consideration of the mea sures for Ireland, by the protracted debates on the com mercial policy of the country, threw these measures late, but tkey were passed, and those abuses were ob viated. It should be recollected, that the great object of this Bill was not the formation of public works, but the relief of distress. This was an important conside ration, and ought to kept carefully in view. Let it be recollected how relief was obtained for distress in Eng land when it occurred in any of our great towns. Why, when anything of this kind occurred in Norwich, Nottingham, Sheffield, or Manchester, subscriptions were raised, and the amount collected was distributed through the agency of a committee ; and, doubt less, in some instances, unworthy objects obtained the relief. Just something of this kind had occurred in the Bill of last year. Abuses had unquestionably been committed, but he contended that the abuse was not to be ascribed to the Bill, but to the way in which it had been carried out. It would, however, be a painful thing to go into these details, and happily it was not necessary. But if any one were to be charged with the evils that had occurred, undoubtedly the Noble Lord the Secre tary for Ireland was responsible for the mischief. Still, however, he must again insist to their Lordships that the object of that Bill was not the construc tion of public works, but the relief of the general distress. It was true that the Bill had failed, but whose fault was it? Whose business was it to see that none others but those who were destitute were employed on these works? Why, it was the duty of those who had the management, and resided in the districts where the works were going on. When similar works were being carried on in Not tingham and other large towns, no men were employed on them who could find employment elsewhere. But what had been the case in Ireland? Why, men who were engaged in improving the land gave up that employment, and were allowed to go and work on public works, increasing the amount of distress, and diminishing the supply of food for the people. It was necessary that the House and the country should know the truth upon these matters. In August and September last ahere was an universal cry and pres sure upon the Government to commence works. In a particular case from %Vest Corinne, there came a deputa tion to the Government, who declared that thenecessity for undertaking work in that county was urgent and could not possibly be postponed, and yet, by the following post, there came accounts from that district saying that they were growing in that neighbourhood an unusually fine crop of corn, which was suffering from the want of hands to cut it.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted the diffi culties the Irish gentry had had to contend with. They had not the advantage of the middle class of this country to tell who were the really destitute, but still, if the measure failed through deficient machinery for carrying it out, it was not fair to lay all the blame at the door of the Government.—(Hear, bear, and cheers.) It was his firm conviction that had the Government received the proper co .operation of those whose duty it was to give it, the measure would have succeeded, more especially it works had not been unnecessarily presented, and none but really destitute had been employed.---(Hear, hear.) It had succeeded in Scotland, where the proprietors of land had borrowed large sums of money under similar powers, which they had applied to the improvement of their estates, and the result was, the population of the distressed districts had been well supplied with food and employment. lie thought that when the House was in possession of the papers intended to be laid upon the table of their Lordships' House, they would be of opinion that the Government had done all that could possibly be ex pected of them to do under the circumstances in which they were placed. It was the duty of the Government not to have opened the depots until the latest possible period--a considerable time was to elapse before the next harvest could be got in. The amount of grain, of all 'kinds, entered for home consumption in the year 1846, exceeded 4,800,000 quarters. There were agents for the British merchants in every market, buying every quarter of wheat they could lay their hands upon. if the Government, then, had entered into the market, the most disastrous results would have followed a policy so perfectly suicidal, and therefore the Government could only obtain a limited supply, which was, of course. obliged to be most parsimoniously preserved. If there was one thing more essential to the benefit. of Ireland, it was the establishment of a class of retail traders, and if, when that class was just springing up, the• Government had entered into the market and cut up th e bud of that opening, it would have been a most injurious and fatal line of policy. With reference to emigration, he be lieved the Government would only have done mischief had they attempted to provide the means of emigration upon an extensive scale and failed in the attempt. The number of emigrants during the last ten years was 687,000, and during the last year the number amounted to 110,000; the greater majority of these were Irish, and had the Government sent out a still larger number, it might be doubtful whether, upon their landing, the proper means of subsistence could have been obtained for them. Those who went to Canada in this way, after a while remitted money home in order to bring out their fami lies ; 37,0001. had within a short period been remitted in this way to Liverpool. But if the plan of the Noble Lord opposite was adopted, parties would not endeavour to find their way out at their own expanse, no remit tances would take place, and the whole cost would de volve upon the Government. Without any aid from their Lordships, the tide of emigration would continue to increase. He might, say that next year tke number of emigrants would be doubled. He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) who spoke early in the evening, that the Government could render essential service to emigrants by pointing out to them how to proceed, what districts to select, and to afford them other important information., They should not forsake the system of caution adopted by the Noble Lord whilst in office. He should shortly, however, lay papers before their Lordships which would afford the fullest information on the subject. Such were the views which her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject. After a few words from Lord FERRAIW, Lord MONTEAGLE said that he could not allow the debate to close without adverting t;o some expres sions which had been used by the Sec rotary of State. There had been a remarkable übstinetic,! from vitupera tion during the whole course of the debate; he con fessedip repellingut a t t h i a m t L t hwe Noble imputationsou s ti Lord fu pa no upon hadidh e n r o b more rj cast, 'than yt bu h t i h s ed Government.o shouldt y , b 3 ric ( o l l i l e e a c r t , that, in im Th pu e gn L in a g bo t u h r e -r L at a e bc .u A r c • rtatewaAtsct oneno of ad p th o e inte w d o o r u st t in w t h h i e ch An h t s g e i s i e t r w e e h r x i i c s li, ) , the the statute-book. All the aabnaluiNoblePu upon been put it n said so Lord much the less for the enactment, for he: c out any good which had arisen from it—it enildbaodt pointbeen wholly inoperative for any good puree: If the Labour rate Act, which his Noble Friend so strongly recom• mended, was so good, why propose not ! to set it aside? Ile had, however, no t denied the sure, but the cause of it was allege d to have arisen not from the conduct of the people, but be cause of the want of co-o ' peration on the part of the Irish landlords. To that ho E w mild answer, that there was no place in the Britsh far less Ire land, where such a measure would be in Pire ' allowed to con tinue. The Labour-rate Act had been Si most unfortunate measure, and had failed from its imperfect maeibinery— not from the want of the co-operation of the Irish land owners. The operation of the A c t h a d b een a mtin ordinate increase in the rate of wages compared with what they ordinarily were in the districts where the law was brought into operation. The Presentment sessions were a most imperfect and injurious mode of securing improvements. Those sessions %Nam generally called together without any notice, and the business was transacted in the press lice of excited multitudes, who were eager to get the votes of money without relation to the possibility of raising the money, or the mode of its application. Presentments were, in consequence, made faster than the clerks could write them down. At these sessions they, had the engineer and the officer of the hoard of work:,, who in some mea sure would be a protection against; the indiscriminate adoption of the hundreds of preset] tments that are now cast before the magistrates. Much misrepresentation had been put before the public wale respect to the pro ceedings at presentment sessions, but they who did so had notconsidered the many ditbculties bet ietting them. At one sessions, of which ho was chairman, tt te presentments were so numerous that on asking the a dvice of the officer of the Board of Works, he suggeste d that they should all be sent up to the Board, when. a selection would be made, and thus the hands of the niagistrates would he strengthened ; and yet, notwithstu nding this, he (Lord Monteagle) and other Irish proprietors had been re proached for sending up a mass of presentments to the Board of Works without attempting anything like a selection, when, in this case, the eq IMO was. adopted at the instigation of their own officer. He would just ad vert to one other topic in connexion with the distress in Ireland, and that was the remedy of emigration. In some parts of Ireland society was, in what he might call, a congested state, and the only remedy, therefore, was the topical one of emigration. He did not speak so much of national as local emigratimi. The Noble Lord said that he did not so much intend to aid the emigrant in this country as on the other side. But great care was necessary in the distribution of this aid for the pur poses of Government would be lost if, instead of aiding the more destitute, they granted assistance where such was not so much required. He would not have risen that evening had it not been for the laboured defence of the Act passed last session by his Noble Friend, and he would not have even risen in consequsnc of that defence had it not been for the assertion of his Noble Friend that the failure of that Bill was solely owing to the want of co-operation on the part of Irish landlords. He (Lord Monteagle) would be prepared to prove, in the course of these discussions, that there were elements in the constitution of that Bill which must have necessarily made it a failure. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he must be permitted to make one or two observations on this sub ject. He thought that the Noble Lord who had spoken last had altogether misapprehended the remarks made by his Noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies who did not pretend to say that this Act was to be a permanent Act for the good of Ireland. He only stated that it was the best scheme that could be devised at the time, and it was only found inefficient because it had not been supported in that country. They then left those parts which they thought were not faulty; and, indeed, left the Bill pretty nearly as they found it. Now, he must refer to the assertion that these presentments were all sent up together. Was that the way in which local business was transacted in England? Did they notprivately discuss the measures of local importance a little in private, and then, making a selection, prefer those which they thought to be the best? Then, with regard to the Building Act. It had totally failed them—at least to the extent of 100,0001.—but it had failed entirely through the act of the lawyers; and it was in consequence of the communi cation on this point that the contents of the letter was addressed to Mr. Labouchere. That Act had been introduced by the Noble Lord himself. But there was one thing which he could not help feeling a little hard, and that was, that while under the difficult circumstances in which they had been placed, all their measures had been condemned, but no one had attempted to point out what measures they ought to have adopted. He did hope for great benefit from the measures which the Go vernment were about to adopt, especially from that prin ciple of emigration to which so much allusion had been made, but he would not, at that late hour of the night, enter upon any further consideration of the subject. WORKHOUSES IN IRELAND. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table copies of the correspondence on the state of workhouses in Ireland, together with several returns of the state of the poor in Ireland and Scotland. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 25. THE STATE OF IRELAND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL (in continuation from our Third Edition of last night) proceeded to sa y-- I should state, with regard to the finan c i a l part of the question—with regard to the sums hitherto issued, that they have been issued out of the balance in the Exchequer charged on the Consolidated Fund, but it neither has been, nor is it now in contemplation to make any new issue of Exchequer-bills in order to meet this demand But, however, it must be considered when we are making these propositions to Parliament, that it is placing a -very considerable burden upon the finances of the country—(Hear, hear)--and that in placing that burden on the finances of this country I do feel myself disabled from making some propositions which I should be called upon t o make . and ali of them entailing expense, but with the very heavy burden arising from the destitution in the present year, it would be hardly fair for the people of this country, to propose them ; becaus e, whether it is stated that the burden is bore by the Consolidated Fund, or whether the burden be borne by the imperial Treasury and the general finances, it must always be recollected that these sums are not to be granted by Parliament or the Government without the most serious consideration, for they are all sums derived from the payment of the people of this country, and who pay it on their soap, their sugar, and their tea and coffee. It is from that source is derived the surplus by which we are enabled to come to the assistance of Ire land. Tke people are willing, as I think, to do all that is liberal in this respect. We must always consider what is meet and just to the people of this country. We must consider the difficulty and privatiole and by what hard labour they earned these sums.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) As to the other part of this subject which I men tioned, namely, the advances made under authority of the Lord-Lieutenant's order, and of the letter of my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchere),—the advances having been made to persons who really wish to assist in carrying this measure into effect, and to effect improvements, mak ing their own estates liable,—we do think it necessary that the terms of the Treasury minute of the Ist of December should be applied to those who have accepted advances under Mr. Labouchere's letter, and that instead of re quiring repayment in 10 years a period of 22 years shall be taken ; that the provisions for carrying this proposal into effect should be in terms of the Drainage Act of last year; and that in regard to its beneficial employment the whole of that money will be expected to be paid as under that Act.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I have now stated what I think we can do for the present relief of the distress in Ireland. There is, how ever, another question, to which I must confess some what of hesitation in making the proposition I intend to do to the House, but yet, on the whole, we think we are right in recommending to Parliament that we should be enabled to grant a sum of money, not exceeding 50,0001., to be repaid before the end of the present year, that is by the 31st of December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to pur chase seed.—(Hear, hear.) I do not mean that the Government should make those advances to the small tenant-farmers themselves, because I think the principle is exceedingly dangerous that the Governmens_ should an occasion come like the present, assume the character of a lender, but I also think that if these advances were made to the proprietors the. measure would not be fraught with harm, while it would be found beneficial to the country.—(Cheers.) Sir, in stating these measures to the House, I wish, atthe same time, to declare that we cannot expect, and we dontitan pect, to be able, by any measures of Government, r y .o I measures which Parliament may sanction, to_wa w a. . c fr h or prevent, the effect of this awful visitation under Di we labour.—(Hear, hear.) It is not in the pewer.tof man to do away with the e ff ect of such a calami y n . Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would us so impossible a task us to make so presump impo o tuous an attempt, were it not that I have read in one of the newspapers an address s ig ned by the Marquis of Slig o and Mr. George Dloore, both most respectable individuals, both persons well worthy of deference on the part of their poorer country men. It is stated in the newspapers that they have travelled throu g h twenty-seven counties; in order to make their propositions popa,l,a.ro. " We, therefore, earnestly entreat you, " they say , l ' meet us at Castlebar, at eleven o'clock on Monday next, fight s quietly, peaceably, and like men worthy of the you mean to demand, then and there to petitio Prar liafl of this went to take such steps as may ensure an im i ediate, constant, and cheap supply of food to the peops country during the famine which surrounds us,, o aliclth:, famine which is impending over the c ountry. that in a Sir, that I am astonished—(Loud cheers) men who time of famine men of educationd ought to love their country—shoal in the language of this address, that may t t e h l e l y them, wera insure to demand from Parliament " steps which , f , ~_ of 00.. an immediate, constant, and cheap s upp ly it is it They Why, Sir, that is a task They possible for us to perform.—(Loud,, visitation should tell their countrymen, a task made which l Ie o e r s . ) under which we are suffering is that is a impossible for man to re task beyond all human power topreerfvoer—m."—(Cheers). part All we can do is in some mode or other t:haaltietvoialitgehtthene miseries of the people—(Cheers) — s ome to save a the dreadful calamity—in some in But they of the people of this country. (rn scarcity and even must not imagine that we can to , lo th ot at th i e t Sir, what sur -ensareeers. ) famine into plenty.—(Cheers ) prises me more even than thhirsa.wnnh so happens that at Castle a re , nested to meet, it does elivneethnieenpteoips surrounding countryanareanionq workhouse ; that union happen that theres workhouse shoul d contain 600 inmates, but it at presen t contains not mo re than 130, the door s b e i ng t the admission other persons, th e of closed agains i I gu ardians say ing no II want te r.c fliee foodr that it is im p ossible for them to lev y o ra t e s in order to otherenable personsnd c in to come to that union.—(Che ers ot paid those rates t h ose who h av e n —who have Among means by which famine might be, not furnished the o . vert d are some whom we to a certain degree, a b . 0 must e fully able to cannot but suppos them, and I pay those rates due free' m oat unhappy t c d annot but see in this proposal a ih ch 11. he en ency_ass en. happy tendency w end to others to m d formoreure than once remarked—to recomblme • thing, and call u them some vague and impossi. upon the Govern ent to do Govern ment or the Parliament to someth ing, the nracti . . h h as not been considered or to confer cability of w hi c h ma y be either Visionaryradical or impos sible, while the p lain pr t a e sustena nce ty— (Loud cheers)—of paying the ra tes for children enance of the starving men, women, and chil h i n th e immediate neigh bourhood is left neg lected _ and unheeded.--(Cheers.) Sir, I am obliged to say, therefore, that while we at tempt all that we think . practicable, w e must, i n the first place, refuse to make promises the performance of which we think out of our power; and, in the next place, we must call upon% an d expect t h ose who have local duties to perfo rm in Ireland, to perform those duties, and to assist the Government and the Parliament in the arduous performance of theirs.—(Cheers.) Si r , when I say that we exp ect this, I am quite sure that by many those duties wi ll be p erf ormed, because I k now there are many, very ma n y , in stances of resident pro prietors in Ireland who have been most ready with thei r money, with their time , and with their a en ance tt d n endeavouring to provide for their destitute ' i tenants (Cries of "Hear, hear.") Sir, a roceed . to another part of this subject, a n d I i T then trust the House will give me their attention while I ask them to follow the proposal of other measures we think may be bene fi cial notol which permanently beneficial to Ireland. n N y o now, but the first place, that we think —say, in may have been unhappily directed fr om althou gh we of general principles with regard to these the observance Ido think that we should observe dies measures, yet as far as possible, and that they egeneral principles regard to the interference of the Gov prescrib e thus much with that that interference may b© give n ernment—vve think in three ways, and that those three ways ought, as far as possible, to be kept separate and distinct, namely—that which so often reach the ears of the public ; and when in qu i r y i s ma d e as t o ho are the persons Government, with the support and sanction of Parliament, may grant assistance to individuals - who ought to ho responsible for that destitution, and to proprietors—for the purpose of improving their who are called upon to subscribe for relief, it is impos- Y ma In g • sible to fix on them or find out who those persons are. private property, to assist in public works, It is not so in England and Scotland, where, in the most loans, or partly by grants for public works which areot distressed districts, the proprietors charge, t i liAmselves evident public utility; and, thirdly, to enact that relief and their estates with a considerable debt;•itiita make should be given by law to the destitute.—(Cheers.) I think these three modes ought to be kept themselves responsible for advances of mon*, ?y sihich as far distinct as possibe —that is to say, that when they may relieve their tenants and dependants frosts. the you advance money to a private individual, for the calamity under which they are at present labi.hg4ng. purpose of improving his property, that you (Hear, hear). Sir, under the second head of üblic should take security so far as this, that it is for that Works there comes the subject of fisheries. purpose, and not to be spent in extravagance, I have not at present any distinct statement to make or for any other purpose—(Cheers)—but laid out simply upon that subject, but I may inform the House that in for the purpose for which it is granted, but that beyond the course of last autumn three establishments for the that you should interfere as little as possible with manufacture of salt, for the purposes of curing, were the use of that money.—(Hear, hear.) That, for founded ; there was a vast amount of fish caught, but instance, you should interefere as little as possible a much greafer amount might have been had were it not in compelling him to employ a certain class of labourers, that the fisheries were almost neglected by the fishermen and to conduct the works in a certain manner, which for the:cultivation of their portions of land. We trust, Government may lay down as to the best manner in however, to bring forward a measure on this subject in which they could be performed, or in any other way, the course of the session. Sir, there is another subject which would prevent him from having the free use on which lam likewise not prepared to make any state of the loan advanced by the Government.—(Hear.) ment to the House, but on which I know there are large Now, Sir, such is the principle of the measure of which expectations entertained in Ireland. It is the very im lam about to speak. It is a measure founded on the portant subject of emigration. I confess I think that, various Acts which have preceded it, the chief of which although Parliament may assist towards emigration, is the Drainage Act of last session, and which came into the extravagant expectations that are entertained operation on the Ist of December. According to this on this head can never be realised. It is Act, and the minute of it which appears on the stated by Sir Robert Kane, and most truly stated, that book, it is proposed that certain assistance where pauper families have been removed, they never shall be given for the improvement of estates can be removed in such numbers as to have any s ensible and for the reclaimation of waste lands, where suc h effect on the remaining population. But there i s this improvement of the value shall prove no detriment to to be considered, that if by some extraordinary effort the legal heirs, and that the advances for such improve- you can increase the ordinary emigration, if you can ment shall be provided out of the public funds. The expect to convey a million of persons across the usual mode has been to grant these advances from the seas, you must consider that the question is not Treasury, on an interest of five per cent. In the simply whether these people have, or have not, Drainage Act of last year, three-and-a-half per cent. the means of profitable labour, you must consider, also, was charged, making, with the other expenses, 61 per cent., to be retained for twenty - two years , when the whether there is in the country to which they emigrate such means, and what they are. If by a large addition sun given be repaid. I propose an advance on the to the public funds you could convey hundreds of terms of the Drainage Act, and to extend the term for thousands of persons to the United States, the United the improvement I have mentioned. In doing this, I States would most justly complain that we cast upon must say that the Noble Lord opposite is in no way them our paupers, when this was a duty properly responsible for the deficiency which has been experienced incumbent on ourselves. (Hear, hear.) If you iu consequence of the working of the Drainage Act, but introduce hundreds of thousands of paupers into your I conceive that the improvement of the estates, if the colonies, you will find that the labour market is term be extended, as well as the construction of roads, glutted, and instead of benefiting the colonies, you will amply repay the money that has been advanced perpetuate a race of beggars over the country. during that term. lam convinced that the plan which The consequence would be the crowding of Nova Scotia I have adopted is better than that which has been pro- and Halifax with beggars. In considering this subject posed by the Lord-Lieutenant for the relief of the poor when I held the seals of the Colonial-office, although I in Ireland. These are the reasons which have prompted confess I was then disposed to go further than I could me to adopt this measure; and I believe that it will go, in consequence of the obstacles in my way, arising not only be found to provide profitable employ- from the state of the finances, but I did think that ment for the poor, but will also prove of great advan- the best mode by which emigration could be pro tege to property. We propose also to make a grant for moted was by taking charge of the emigrants, not general works, such works as shall not only be important at his present place of abode, not at the port of his in themselves, but which will prove of permanent ad- embarkation alone, nor at the port where he disem vantage to the country. We propose thin in addition to barked, but conveying him from there to some the money to be granted to the proprietors of field where the emigrants might find a mar estates, and to give to the Board of Works ket for their labour; accordingly I proposed a the general superintendence of the loans We certain grant for the purpose of emigration, which has propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend these since been continued from time to time, sometimes to a laws. We propose, likewise, on the same principle to larger and sometimes to a smaller amount. By means of which I have just adverted, namely, the principle of this grant many poor families have been conveyed from promotinggreat public works for the benefit of the State, Quebec to Montreal, and from Montreal to Kings we propose to undertake the reclamation of portions of ton and the interior parts of Western Canada. the waste lands of Ireland. It has long been stated and been placed in situations where they could earn in various reports of Commissions, in reports of Cora- wages and be comfortably settled. The emigration mittees of this House, in the works of eminent writers, going on in this way has been in the past years very large. that in many cases the reclamation of the waste In the year 1845, there went to our North American lands of Ireland would produce large profits if colonies 31,000 persons, to the United States 58,000,in eking they were properly cultivated. Mr. Robert Dale, a total of nearly 90,000. In the first three quarters of in his most interesting work upon the indus• the year 1846, which contains the great bulk of the rial resources of Ireland, says, he thinks the emigration of the year, there went to our North estimate of 4,600,000 acres of waste land may be re- American colonies 42,404 emigants, to the United States claimed, farmed, and cultivated with profit, and by no 67,792, making a total of 110,196. The report from the means an exaggerated estimate. Now, we propose to Agent of Emigration in Canada states that "during devote a million of money to this purpose, and we the past year a much larger number of Irish emi propose, should the proprietor of the waste land be grants had arrived in a state of destitution, as unwilling to sell or reclaim his land by means of the to bed and clothing, exceeding anything that loans I have mentioned, or out of his own resources, that he had ever before witnessed." The report goes there should be a compulsory power to take and improve on to say, " that among the earlier emigrants there was the waste lands which are below a certain value. We no distress except that resulting from their own mis propose that that value should be put down at 2s. 6d. conduct, and that employment could be easily obtained at Mr. GOULBURN—Is that the annual value? remunerative wages, and that the carrying out of Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes, the annual value. the public works would give additional employment, and We propose upon this data to improve and reclaim the that the formation of the Montreal and Quebec Rail . waste lands so far as general operations are ways would give employment to a much larger number concerned; that is, roads are to be made and of persons. I should certainly be afraid to give general draining is Lo be effected. The necessary build- anything like a stimulus to emigration, to such an ings are to be erected, but we do not propose to take extent as to send a large number of paupers where upon ourselves the cultivation of the land. It having they could not obtain the means of support, and been so reclaimed, we propose that it should be divided involving a large outlay and waste of public money. into lots, not below nor above a certain quantity. Ido Under these circumstances it could not be expected not think it necessary to mention figures, but I that the State would undertake the whole expenses of would say not less than 25, nor more than 50 acres, and an extensive system of emigration. Sir, there are some when reclaimed, the land shall be let or sold in these difficulties with regard to a general system of emi quantities ; if let, the tenant at the expiration of his gration which cannot easily be encountered, and lease to have the option of purchasing his allotment the plans on which it is proposed to be carried are oh- I confess that I do expect that great advantage will jectionable, although there are some kinds of emigration arise from this plan. I do expect that a great many which are not objectionable, and to which I hope facili persons who have been driven t 3 despair and crime from ties will be given. But I do not propose on the the great demand for land, will be enabled by such holdings part of the State that any Government plan of emi to earn a competent living. I think, also, that you will gration should be undertaken, and whether I may or may raise a small class of proprietors who may be very in- not bring forward any measure to facilitate emigration duatrious and very independent, which will form a very on the part of the Government. I wish to give no hope valuable class. Let me say, in the meantime, that, as of an extensive system of emigration.—(Hear, hear.) far as I can form a judgment, I do dot think the Sir, I know not if the calculations of Sir R. Kane may 1 small holdings are the great evil of Ireland. be taken altogether as a sober estimate, but he main- I do believe that the method on which land has tains that there are such resources in Ireland—such agri been held is the chief source of its want of cultivation ; culturalresources—(llear)—independently of the mineral but Ido not think that the small holdings of the country resources of the country, and the means of employ have been injurious : and I have arrived at that conclu- ment by water power for manufacture—that no less than sion from the fact, that the most prosperous and best 17,000,000 of people could be maintained out of them. cultivated county in Ireland is Armagh—a county in Ido not enter into this calculation i bur this T which the greatest division of 1..4 ovi.te. If you cum- say that lau nut stunk, if tneie 'Nem a good system of pare the whole province of Ulster with that of Munster, agriculture introduced—if there were a good security you will find that there are many more divisions in the for investment of money in land—(Hear, hear)—if province of Ulster in proportion to that of Munster. I the proprietors themselves undertook the task of im believe, therefore, in adopting this plan, and by giving a proving the oountry, if the other classes co-operated compulsory power, a great advantage may be secured.— with them—l do not think the present population (Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I come to the third class of of Ireland is excessive. —(Hear, hear.) And now, propositions. I have stated, and I wish to repeat it, before I conclude, if the House will so far that the measures which I am now stating are those bear with me, I will venture to allude to those countries whick we intend immediately to introduce, and that lam which apparently had been in as bad a state, so far as not referring to those which we have in contemplation, and their general condition was concerned, as Ireland, and which we think it will be our duty afterwards to propose. which we now see flourishing, and in the possession of But I say these measures, which we now submit, are cal- peace. I think there may be some good in that retrospec culated- to promote the improvement of Ireland, and tion, because I know that in the many evils that have af will enable proprietors to obtain sufficient funds to make flicted Ireland—especially in viewing the present cala great improvements upon their estates, and also to pro- mitt'—there are some who are disposed to despair. I vide the means whereby works of a more public do not despair ; I see no reason, unconnected with those nature may be carried out.—(Hear, hear.) The laws which happily have ceased to exist—unconnected third class of measures to which I have alluded are with unhappy circumstances to which I do those intended simply to afford relief to the destitute. not like to allude, but which the Poor -law Commis- It will be remembered that when the Poor-law Commissioners have generally inquired into—unconnected with sion of Inquiry made its report, it advised that only a these circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may certain class should be relieved, and in that class it ex- not become a state enjoying the greatest prosperity. eluded those who were infirm and permanently disabled. I will read the description of a country in which these We thought, upon the whole, that it was much safer, in evils were stated to occur by an old English writer :—" The the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland, husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by and not to confine the relief to any particular class of men. covin or fraud, or violent oppression, they be put beside Sir, it is not only the experience of all those acquainted it; or by wrong and injuries they be so wearied that they with the present state of things, but it is our own opi- be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by the nion, founded on a general view of the state of Ireland, other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart that the poor-law should be more extensive than it is. away, poor, wretched souls,—men,women, husbands,wives, I therefore propose to bring in a Bill for the purpose of fatherless children, widows,woful mothers with theiryoung more efficiently meeting the distress in Ireland, which babes, and the whole household, small in substance and shall confer on the poor.l aw guardi ans pow ers to afford much in number; as husbandry rcquireth many hands; relief either in or out of th e workh ouse to all parties away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accus disabled by bodily ailment.--(Hear, hear.) This tomed house., finding no place to rest in. All their is what we propose in _ the Bill to d o; and to give household stuff, which is very little worth, though due effect to the measure, in the first place, the it might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly guardians shall have the power, as a general rule, to thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing use the workhouse as a t es t o f d est i tut i on ; and, in of nought; and, when they have wandered about till the second place, to afford r e li e f t o t h e starving people that be spent, what can they then do but steal, and then at their own houses, i n order to satisfy the general justly pardy, be hanged, or else go about a-begging ?" feeling of the country on this matter. —(Cheers.) Sir, I This ' was a description not unlike that of parts of Ire also propose, that in cases when the workhouse is full, land, where wretched families, being turned out of their that the Poor law Com m i ss i oners shall have ' power to holdings, were driven at once either to the commission direct the guardians to gi ve relief out of the workhouse of robbery ' or to go about begging. Yet the description to the able-bodied poor. My opinion is that this power I have read is that given of England by Sir Thomas should be cautiously used, and that the workhouse, as a More—(Hear, hear)—that was an account of England general principle, should b e emp l oyed as a test of ' able his day. 'lf any one should suppose this was bodied destitution on ly •, still I think th e H ouse will i a n n effortimagination , of the I can assure him agree with me, that th e P oor -l aw C ommissioners should that we have other authentic accounts which have the power t o ma k e a l terat i ons in the operation corroborate it, and in which it is stated that of this test.—(Cheers.) I propose, therefore, that in the people roved about in bands of from 200 to 300 a t a cases of ur g e n t necess i ty — that is, in such cases where time, who lived entirely by stealing or begging, taking the able-bodied make application for relief—that these cattle from the fields, and committing such excesses, shall be relieved out of the workhouse, but in that not anything or any plac e was safe. In food only.—(H ear, h ear. ) We further propose such numbers, indeed, did the people roam, that that relieving officers shall be appointed, whose it is said that as many as seventy thousand thieves, duty it shall be to take cognizance of all cases of distress, rogues, and vagabonds were hanged in one day. I will and who, in urgent cases, when t'iero is danger of the now turn to the state of society in another country, people starving, shall have the power to give whore an equal degree of prosperity is known to pre relief out of the workhouse till the next meeting veil. It is a description of the country at the end of of the board of guardians such meeting to decide on the 17th century, and in this description it is stated that what arrangemeut shall be made for the paupers so great was the number of families that had been relieved in this manner in future.—(Hear, hear.) driven from their own homes, that as many as Such therefore, is the nature of th e measure s which I 200,000 to 300,000 individuals were known to be propose immediately to introduce. There are, as I have prowling about the country, living by steal stated, other measures which have been and are under ing and begging from door to door. It was, the consideration of Government. With respect to the indeed, believed that 100,000 persons who were con first class to which I have alluded—that class of tinually on the prowl about the country, and though the measures which enable proprietors to make better poor people who lived upon farms would give relief use of their own properly, to increase theit to as many as forty persons in one day, yet capital and improve theip estates—we have under con • they could not avoid being insulted, or protect themselves sideration measures which shall facilitate the sale of from the commission of the most grievous depredations. private property.—(Hear, hear.) There are two modes Such is the description of industrious, sober Scotland at by which it is to be done—one mode is, I think, taken the end of the 17th century.—(Hear, hear.) It shows from the general principle of the Copyhold Act. Every that a country which has been without order one knows th a t there are private Bills passing every year where robbers were, where industry was neglected, may by which certain individuals are allowed to sell a por- afterwards become orderly and civilised, and I think we tion of their estates, in order to pay off encumbrances s hould be unworthy of our position as Members of One way of carrying into effect the principle I have P ar li a ment, if we were to give way to despair. mentioned would be to propose that there should be in the present case.—(Cheers.) Sir, I know, however, general Bill s , g iving the Commissioners power to exa - that what I have touched upon relating to the social state mine into each case, and then having t h e Bills p asse d of Ireland — touching as I have done upo_n(mnaenayr,ihmepaorro in another p er i o d of the session, by which, instead taut measures—is but a part of k the k c a a t se. apart from politi of ono private Bill, many private Bills would be lam not one of those w . h9 other —ss sanctioned by Parliament. Another e w r e mode which we cal questions—from . politia t l tii have under consideration, by which the samet the t o wo t uld tious connected with political of beneficent Government can be gained, could be done by . application_ country merely clu es It is my opi to prosperity be required, and the have the subject nion that other means will . ystthis moment which and happiness.—(Cheers.) when _ Ii refits — i tu f t r i e o m n s I shall like- proper time comes for preparing such measures I shall restore under our earnest consideration. m Ch od a e ne w er e y s . h l a shall cann ot even t eventually in Ire- ioerad y tO undertake anything for the benefit of Ire. Bills by which those tenures Sir, I feel that, with respect to these and all wise prepare leasehold tenures, land ; but, land, which are called longthins converted into freehold other measures, that there are which may be renewable for ever, speaking,with regard to the Crown cannot grant, which arliament tenures. I must say, generally f Ireland, the most in- eannot grant, such as a spirit of self-reliance, a the present unfortunate state whichof property is held in spirit of perseverance. Cheers. I must say plainly furious system is the mode in . conditions in that that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not various tenures, and under various appears to be that that I think I see s y m p toms amon gst the people of Ire country, The present modee cberge u pon a large land both of a greate r relia nce upon their own ener g i es , of having a small r ent - ent under their own exertions, and a greater willin ag willingness to co estate. The landlord has a property him, so that operate with us.—(Cheers.) 1 believe that they will a middleman under it him, and that agent has whom h dot of property courage this spirit amongst themselves-1 believe that is impossible to say on t n worthy of the will see what has been done in this a ques io country and in her rested.—(Cheers.) It is consider how these neighbour Scotland, by industry by attention of Parliament to consider how it is possible never despairing of success —that tenures may be simplified, with the tenant and this spirit, not looking 1 they gill' go on in to connect the proprietor. which they are connected posala, and to Parliament fur enactments—(Cheers) — in Ireland and Scotland. It is to the task immediately before them, ' that is to be attributed, among the many causes ! and set themselves down heartily and strenuously nexion instances of destitution ito perform that task,and in Ireland, the frightful prove that there are means Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I made a mistake when'- said that rates were to be levied by the relief com mittees—the rates are to be levied by the board of guardians, and they w ill h ave t h e power to levy any additional rates they may require. The committees will be empowered to receive them. and to this will be added private subscriptions and donations from the Go vernment. Mr. B. OSBORNE vt isbed to have from the Noble Lord some explanation of his statement about Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore refusing to pay the rates at Castlebar. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had mis apprehended his meaning. He (Lord John Russell) stated that a meeting had been called at Castlebar, and that Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore had proposed and se conded the resolutions to which he had alluded ; and that in the Union of Castlebar there were arrears of rents due, as he had stated ; but he did not say that either the Marquis of Sligo or Mr. Moore were among tbsse who were in arrears.—(Hear, hear.) In saying that he did not mean to reflect on the Noble Lord or the other gentleman referred to.—(Hear.) Mr. S. O'BRIEN, who rose amidst considerable con fusion, said his object was to ask the Noble Lord the course the Government intended to adopt in reference, first, to making advances on railway works ? and, second, whether her Majesty's Government, in their con sideration of the present condition of the people of Ireland, had decided on bringing in a Tenants' Compensation Bill, in order to provide for the compensation of tenants in cases of removal? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that respect ing making advances for railways, that sub ject had been under consideration, and it was thought unwise to do so generally on works of that description. It was a subject into which the Government was not prepared to go at present. Re garding tenants' compensation, a Bill had been pre pared, but it was not intended to be introduced into that House at present, and would, in all probability, originate in the other House.—(Hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS was desirous Of knowing if any arrangements had been made for the poor emigrants who might arrive in the colonies —whether it was their intention to appropriate any capital in the colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and the Canadas, in order to encourage emigration to that quarter? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the subject had come under the consideration of his Noble Friend the Secre tary for the Colonies, and the Government was prepared, if proprietors or companies in Canada were willing to construct villages or build dwellings while railways were in the course of construction, to make advances of money to assist them.--(hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS said his question had reference to advances for the cultivation of the land in the colonies, and not for the construction of railroads. Mr. F. FRENCH said that just before the meeting of the House an Hon. Friend of his connected with the late Government had assured him, from information be had received, the measures to be brought forward by her Majesty's Government were likely to prove most distasteful to the Irish Members, and most particularly so to himself. It did not appear to him desirable to go into details as to any part of the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, tint he could say that his first proposal was in accordance with the Treasury minute of the Ist of December, with reference to the employment of the people. The objec tionable portion of it appeared to him to be the inter ference of the Board of Works, in the employment of the people. With regard to the proposition of out-door relief, under the poor-law, such a course appeared to him to be most desirable, and altogether the provisions of the Noble Lord appeared to him to claim the utmost admir ation. He admired the distinction drawn by the Noble Lord between the temporary measures for the relief of Ireland, and those likely to become permanent ones—those for the emergency of starvation, and those for the improvement of the country. Ireland had lately become involved in many serious diffi culties, and those difficulties appeared to him to be increased by the measures adopted by the Right Hon. Member for Tam worth, in tampering with the provision trade, which %yes at all times a dangerous speculation. He had created a feeling in the minds of the people that it was the duty of the Government to feed them, and that the Government had the power to do it, and that feeling had given rise to considerable discontent and dissatisfaction in the distressed districts that the Government did not perform impossibilities. That feeling had led to the occurrence which had taken place in the county of Galway, in which county, on the coroner's jury sitting to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of a woman who died of want, a verdict of wilful murder was returned against Lord John Russel. The second error which the Right Hon. Baronet's Go vernment committed was, the administering indiscrimi nate out-door relief—seconding the intervention of the Board of Works, the principle of State interference in matters purely private. That the Noble Lord at the head of the Government clearly saw the dangers anddifficulties of the position which the Right Hon. Baronet took, was clearly manifested from his first Treasury minute, from his speeches in that House, from his letter to the Duke of Leinster, and many other evidences ; but in the confusion incidental to the formation of a new Government, the legacy left by the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, the Poor Employment Bill, with all its attendant evils, evils which had created the greatest discontent between landlord and tenant, from one end of Ireland to the other, became law. The evil was in the very principle of the Act, for he could bear his warmest testimony to the great abilities of Mr. Jones and Captain Larkinn. The first evil was in the diversion of the entire population from the cultivation of the soil. According to the statement of the Noble Lord, not less than 480,000 persons were now employed. The commerce of the county was therefore greatly interfered with. In the county which he had the honour to represent, a road from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of 15 miles, hich usually took the mail an hour to traverse, now took four and a half hours, and an application was made to Government to grant an additional hour. In fact, the Board of Works were designated throughout the whole of Ireland as the wholesale destroyers of her Majesty's highways. That expenditure of 180,0001. a week was going on in the country,' when every eminent agriculturalist who had studied the subject agreed in the opinion that by a proper system of drainage the produce of the soil might be in creased from 25 to 100 fold. Another effect of this public employment was its demoralising in fluence upon the minds of the people, taking from them all self.reliance, and encouraging them to look to a system of out-door relief, and fostering habits of laziness arid indolence at a period when every exertion should be used to rouse their in dustrial energ . es. He was glad to hear that the opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tatavvorth had been somewhat modified since the last session, and he recommended that the army of 10,000 overseers should be disbanded, and labour again caused to flow into its proper channel. That was the expression of the general feeling of the people of Ireland, and their voice had been heard be the Government of the country. When the Lord Lieutenant first issued that letter, known throughout the country as " Labouchere's letter," which the Honourable Member for Limerick had threatened to impeach, its object was to substitute tute productive for unproductive works. and proposing a division of the country into electoral districts, allowing presentments to be made for private interests under the Drainage Act. That letter was not acted upon, because it was provided that the works should be carried on under the Board of Work, thereby, entailing an additional cost of cent. per, evening by anticipated that the measure proposed. thai,s,. by the Noble Lord would confer rnate a r r i I on Ireland. He agreed fully with that , p tof the n N ta : i b e le s countr), o Lord's address in which he said there a h s n w o ,e c v a e u r s l e am to ent de spair of the future state .. of that _T r igh g t baeiTeas he had no doubt tter state of things able her present pos i t i on that after much acute sufft prosperity of the would ensue, and decrees, ac btehe re - e stablished. The well country a as calamities, of nature generally, caused a reaction, and often led to the best re sults in the human frame as well as in the body politic : thus Ireland, the difficulty and problem of statesmen, through the fearful ca lamity with which it had pleased Providence to afflict her, had done that for that country which neither King's nor statesmen had been able to effect, as it had led to the adoption of measures which would give Ireland a fair field, and which would go far to promote her regeneration. In after years they would have to look back upon these measures, either as having promoted the prosperity, or led to the utter ruin of Ireland. Mr. BELLEW thought that indeed the importance of this subject could not be exaggerated, and ths feelings of the Irish Members cou'd not but have been gratified by the arrangement which'the Noble Lord had proposed. He rejoiced that the principle of rendering the Irish land lords responsible for the support of their poor had for the first time been adopted in that House that night ; and he thought that the Members for England and Scotland would be satisfied with the arrange ment, as it extended the poor-laws from these countries, to Ireland. Yet it should be remembered that the rate levied under the poor-law in this country only remounted to one 'sixth, or 2s. in the pound, whilst in Ireland it amounted to one-fourth. The Irish landlord was generally supposed to be an embarrassed person. It was, therefore, stated that the ~; s who wad CtISC S duyS i e rnan r lost and sarily, disap cOrred (Tht be t, that petted ,ke the )hained was a 1. lie his overn , bad )noreY• Lie pre" .(plecr, e stip' ' hands c hased. whom , .e, lie blished note er „ wri er- Lthdraw . people • ' H e re' S 177 N , • and resources in Ireland which may bring these' matters to a happy issue. —(Loud cheers.) There is no doubt of the fertility- of the land. Its fertility has been the theme and admiration of the writers and travellers of all nations. There is no doubt Either of the strength and indristiy The same man who is loitering by the monntdirkSere in Tipperary er in Derry—whose potato crop has just furnished him with occupation for a f e w days— whose wages and whose pig have just enabled him to pay his rent, and eke out a miserable subsist ence, has perhaps a brother in Liverpool, Glasgow, or London, who, by the sweat of his brow, f, ona morning till night, is competing with the strongest and stoutest labourers, and is earning wages equal to any of them.—(Hear, hear.) I do nut think, therefore, that either the fruitfulness of the land, or the strength or the industry of the inha bitants are to be blamed. There have been faults, it is true—there have been differences—but happy will it be for us if we lay the foundation for the cure of these differences —(Hear, hear.) Happy will it be, if the Irish themselves take for their maxim the precept " Help yourself, and Heaven will help you," and then I trust that they will find that there have been uses in adversity.—(The Noble Lord then resumed his seat amid protracted cheering.) Sir H. W. BARRON desired to know how the poor were to be supported, and in what way the taxes were to be levied 4# r