The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-22 00:00:00

beau the effect of elections in the metropolis. He begget' their Lordship to reflect•whet would be the cnnsequenr• in this vast town if these districts were to be enfranchised Could they doubt that the respectable tradesman would he outvoted by his journeymen, and that being solicited by his customers and others (though under other circum stances he would not be disposed to vote as they did) must submit to the situation in which he would b placed ? I❑ reference to the metropolitan elections, he de clared there had not been a free election for the city of W,stminster for many year , . The admission of the me tropolitan district Members must only tend to lead to a c ts sie violence in times of excitement. The Noble Lord then objected to this proposition, because he did not see the justness of its principle, and because lie considered its ope ration roust be detrimental to the ctiontry. Of this he was quite sure, that Political Clubs and Unions in such a cane wou'd tend to promote agitation, and lead men to desire for still further changes. With regard to the county of Middlesex, undoubtedly it would have tern impossible to have objected to giving it two more Members, because he conceived that such an arrangement would have been most desirable. lie believed that he had now touched upon every point, ex e.pt the ten•pound qualification clause. With respect to this clause he and other Noble Louis had not thought themselves precluded by the decision or opinion of the other House of Parliament from suggesting some amend ment. Looking to towns in rural districts, it might doubted whether it would be desirable to raise the qualifi cation. Again, he and other Noble Lords, while they were not disposed to exclude even poverty frog, the exer gime of the elective franchise, yet wished that poverty should be respectable. One thing they had deemed to be essential, namely, that the residence of a voter should be in the same place, and that he should not he a lodger in a house. Ha did not wish to deal insidiously with the nutter; he cared not for any clause stipulating that the cent should be pid half-yearly. They had proposed only to ascertain that a man enjoying the right of the franchise, however poor he might be, should be respectable. Such then was the plan which he and others suggested, not of Reform, hut of amendments, a plan framed for the purpose of making this Bill more safe and more conservative in its; general operation. The Noble Lord went on to state that he knew many of his Noble Friends were much asto nished at the extent to which be was willing to go. The street of these amendments, by which the preservation of tile established church and other desirable objects would hive been secured, would have given not less than 136 votes to the G.nservatives. His opinion was that the system proposed to be established by this Bill could not stand without giving a more popular franchise than that which was now proposed. He thought no representative vs stem could stand the test of excluding the poorest classes. The great advantage of the present system was, that whilst it gave protection to property it extended it likewise to poverty. And here he would give that which was only his individual opinion, that it might lie proper to provide i❑ some places for the more popular franctii , e which now existed. He had been greatly misunderstood the other night if it hail been supposed that he had intended to propose any amendments, or that he acted with the concurrence of others. He had spoken his own individual opinion, but seeing the danger that might arise from not preserving the more popular franchise in certain cases, he would say it was a question involving so much difficulty, that he had not yet brought his mind to a decision upon it. With reference to the state of the representation in Scotland, there was an infinitely stronger ease there than had ever ex isted here. He should, however, look into the de tails of that proposed measure of Reform as he had done in this, but the principle of that Bill was admitted. .sot so, however, with the Irish Bill. Three months iego he had said, and he would again repeat his assertion, th a t as one of those individuals who had voted for the paseieg of the Catholic Relief measure, be could not vote tier it ; for he its advantages what they might, he thought it dangerous in principle. He believed that many Noble Lards opposite stood in the same position with himself. They had done all in their power to carry that measure ; hut they had also acquiesced in the other measure which followed it as the price of that measure, well knowing that it would have been impossible to have carried the Roman Catholic Relief Bill unless accompanied by the other measure of disfranchisement of the 40s. freebolde•rs. They therefore stood engaged to protect the Protestant people of Ireland, and from that pledge he, for his own parr, would nut depart ; and until lie should find that there was a desire on the part of the Protestant people, Grit only of Ireland but of England also, that the Bill should become law, he could not vote for it. He thought it would be an act of gross fraud, and would be practising an unworthy deception upon the people of Ireland if they mould pass another measure to overturn all the conse quences of that measure to which he Lad alluded. Ti,e then being his opinion, he said (and he spoke for others) agar as a Member of Parliament, and as a member of that Government which had advised the passing of that mei sure, and as a man of honour, he could not vote for the Irish Reform Bill until he should be freed from the pledge which he had given, by the declared desire of the Pro testant people of England and Ireland, for its adoption.— The Noble Baron then made his motion, which we believe to have been to the effect that the boroughs in schedule C lie omitted, with a view to his proposing certain boroughs in lieu thereof, giving to the House the opportunity of discussing them seriatim. The LORD CHANCELLOR, after a brief explanation of the effect of the Noble Lord's Amendment, said, that lie certainly agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) in pre • ferring the clause as it was, so that the boroughs might he voted one by one, giving an opportunity of discussing t heir respective merits. He was prepared roost cheerfully to meet the Noble Lord in his proposition for discussing the measure in the Committee in a calm and temperate taanner ; and, thersfore, avoiding all topics of irritation, lie would, bethre entering upon that discussion, make only one general observation, namely, that the friends of the Bill could not be much blamed for not having been able to discover in the late debate upon it, what were those intentions of the Noble Lords opposite which had been withheld from their knowledge until the division. That was all he would say on that subject. He entirely agreed with the Noble Baron that it was exceedingly desirable, whatever plan of Reform might be adopted, that it should be regarded as a final settlement of that question by Par liament and the country ; and as a consequence of that agreement, that if it could be shown that any part of the present Bill was not a final settlement, but sowed the seeds of some future alteration, that part ought, if possible, to he amended. Nut conceiving, however, that a final set tlement of the question was less precluded by the measure :is it stood than by the proposition of the Noble Baron, he was prepared to oppose the Noble Baron's proposition. He could not conceive how the Noble Baron's proposition, which did not proceed on any particular principle, such se population, or wealth, or any other, but which merely took a certain number of specified towns to which to give the right of representation, was at all calculated to give a better security for a final arrangement of the question than that which existed in the Bill as it stood at pre• vent. He could hot conceive how, on the principles L,f the Noble Baron's proposition, if a town were to grow from insignificance into importance, if it were to increase from a population of 5,000 to a population of 25,000, or from a place of small to a place of great trade, he could not conceive how, on the Noble Baron's principles, and because the Noble Baron chose not to refer to any such considerations, it would be possible to exclude such a town from, some twenty or thirty years hence, claiming a right of representation. For the friends of the Bill did not say as an abstract principle that a borough with a population of 10,000 should return one Member, and a borough with a copulation of 20,000 two Members; but that many large towns, at present unrepresented, should have repre sentatives--drawing a line on the principle that a line must he drawn somewhere. With respect to the obierva tion of the Nile Baron, that most of the boroughs in s(iedu'e A, and all those in schedule B, might lie ren- tiered fit for representation by adding neighbouring dis tricts, the effect of such a proceeding would be injuriously to strip the county population. In Cornwall, for instance, eleven or twelve boroughs in which were in schedule A, and four in schedule B, the effect of the plan alluded to by the Noble Baron would be most injuriously to diminish the county population of Cornwall. The principle of the measure was to get rid of great practical abuses, not to ttike out a large part of the pop u l a ti on o f count i es . Lie . . denied also the truth of the allegation, that in large towns the UV. qualification would give a preponderance to the journeymen and inferior classes over the more respee•able portion of the inhabitants. Let them consider what would be the cons quence of making the qualification 201. instead of 10/. He mane an estimate with reference to eight or ten towns in order to see how that matter would stand. - - In Sudbury, if the qualification were 20L, deducting those persona who would be disqualified on various grounds, there would only be about thirty-four voters, even if they were all resident ; in Poole, only '75 ; in Cockerniouth, only 29; in Harwich, only 45 ; in War wick, only 160 ; in Wigan, only 120 ; in Leeds, only 2,400; in Wolverhampton, only 700; in Birmingham, only 1,800 or 1,900; and so with others. So far, therefore, from the master-manufacturers and other person s of opulence being overpowered by the jour otYmen and inferior classes, should the qualification remain at 10/., the only danger was that too many of the latter would be excluded. The Noble and Learned Lord here entered into some further calculation. on this point, which we were unable to hear with accu racy; but which confirmed him in his conviction that tl, masters and superior classes would not be overwhelmed It: th e journeymen and in'erior classes With reference to the argument of the Noble Baron, that it was desirable ti retain the scot and lot-voters in some places, in order to give the poorer classes more direct representation, be coule not see the principle of such an arrangement; and with respect to the practice, it was clear from the example re Preston, and other places in which there was scot and for voting, that it bad not the effect which the Noble Bairn supposed ; but that Members for ouch places were fre quently returned by the influence of the higher classes. When, however, the qualification came to be discussed, that would he the time for entering more fully into the consideration of that part of the subject. At present, therefore, he would merely say, that he could not agree to the Noble Barn's amendment. Lord WYNFORD was persuaded that the Bill could not he final ; that it ought not to be final. The effect of it would he, to place all power in the bands of the manu facturing, and entirely to destroy the landed interest. Ot 378,000 persons at present duly qualified, the Bill would exclude above 130,000, who were engaged in agricul ture. The moment the agriculturists found that this wag the case, the discovery would no doubt be followed by a great and just clamour on their part. The principles on which it was withheld were equally absurd. Many towns would he without representation, although posses sing three times the number of persons with a JO/. qualification, tl an other towns which, according is the Bill, were to he represented. After contending at some length that the course which his Majesty's Government proposed to pursue in their plan of enfranchisement would he highly unjust, the Noble and Learned Lord said, that instead of consenting to the amendment of the Noble Baron (Ellenborough) for the omission of a portion of schedule C, he thought it would be better to omit the whole of it, so that they might be able to take a discussion on each particular town which might be proposed to form a part of such a schedule. He begged at the same time to ob serve, that he was thoroughly convinced it would be better in all cases to give the enfranchised places two Members instead of one. With respect to the nomina tion boroughs, he would contend that as it was de termined to get rid of the system of nomination, it was their bounden duty to take care that no nomination boroughs remained, still less that any should be created ; and yet he believed he could prove that nomination boroughs would be created by the Bill. One of these boroughs (Huddersfield) had undoubtedly a very extensive popula tion, and a very thriving trade, but whatever might be its wealth or its population, he believed it would be found that all the houses in the town, with the exception of one, be longed to one individual, and that he would at all times he able to influence the return of the representation. The Commissioners in their report had distinctly admitted this fact ; but under some vague kind of an opinion that a place so large as Huddersfield would ultimately work out its independence, they had not recommended the extension of the boundaries of the borough so as to cure the defect. Thee was another borough (Arundel) in which, although the houses were held on very long leases, the holder could not transfer his interest without the consent of the Noble Proprietor. Now, this he (Lord Wynford) thought was such a state of dependence as rendered the tenant subser vient to the purposes of the proprietor, and he intended to propose an amendment with reference to it. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by repeating his ge neral objections to the clause, and expre,sing his anxiety that the claims of every town should be fairly considered on its separate merits. —( Heat.) Lord WHARNCLIFFE, after going over a brief sum , mary of the course of the. debates on the Bill, said they were now called on to consider, according to the proposi tion of the Noble Baron (Ellenborough), what boroughs were to have enfranchisement, and what boroughs were not to have enfranchisement ; and in order to have a better understanding of the question, he should first read the names of those places which, according to the Noble Baron's proposal, were now to be omitted in schedule C. The first was the town of Greenwich in Kent, the reason for omitting which might be classed under the general objection to the metropolitan representation; and the next was the town of Devonport, which, as Plymouth was to retain two Members, might, they apprehended, share very well with it in representation. The four next which they proposed to omit, were Finsbury, Lambeth, Maryle bone, and the Tower Hamlets. Three of them would, in the event of a division of the county of Middlesex, have their interests fully represented by its Members ; and he did not see any reason why the residents of Lambeth, nu merous as they were, could not have the privilege of voting for the borough of Southwark. The next places 1 , which they proposed to leave out of the schedule were Brighton and Cheltenham. He (Lord Wharneliffe) Lad really never seen or heard an argument why these towns were to have a preference over others in the privilege of choosing representatives. If the franchise depended on population, he could understand it ; but those who denied that, had never been able to give a satisfactory reason fur what they pi oposed. The next places to he omitted were Oldham, Rochdale, and Salford, in the county of Lancaster, all of which would, they considered, be sufficiently represented by their immediate neighbours. Warrington they proposed to join with Blackburn, and they saw no reason why Chatham should not return Members in conjunction with Rochester and Stroud. The next place to be omitted was Dudley, which, as its trade and interests were precisely the same as Wol verhampton, would be sufficiently represented by the Mem bers for that place. The next town was Gateshead. He (Lord Wharncliffe) had some acquaintance with both Gateshead and Newcastle, of which Gateshead was a mere suburb, enjoying the same trade, and possessing precisely the same inter.sts; and he certainly could not see the pro priety of giving it a separate Alember. Then came the town of Wakefield. Every one knew that Wakefield for- merly was the centre of a very extensive manufactory; but all York also knew that trade existed no longer : and the only reason that could be given for placing it in the schedule was, that it had a considerable trade in corn. Walsall was in the same situation as Dudley, and they pro posed to unite it with Wo!vcrhampton ; and Whitby, although it formerly had a considerable portion of the whale trade, was now in such a state of decline that it had no claim to the representation of a separate interest. Having thus mentioned the places to be left out of the schedule, the Noble Lord proceeded to read those Boroughs of the schedule which they proposed should remain ; and among these they undoubtedly included Huddersfield, not withstanding• the observatians of the Noble and Learned Lord near him (Wynford). Ile believed it would be found, that although Huddersfield did belong to au in ,ividual (Sir John Raonsden), that gentleman would have very little influence in the return of the representative. Huddersfield, too, was a place of great wealth, of in creasing importance, and the seat of the manufacture of a particular species of cloth in great consumption. Having thus gone through the names of the places which they wished to place in the schedule to have two Members each, he would say, i❑ all sincerity, that he thought the scheme was a good one, and that there was ❑othing more detrimental to the interests of the repre sented than the collisions which took place when only one Member was to be selected. With respect to the Metro- Flitan Representation, lie confessed he did not think it wise to give separate Members to a number of districts so close to the seat of the Legislature. It might be true that the Members for these places would not turn out to be de magogues ; but still he thought it was not wise to have a number of Members sitting for places in the immediate vicinity of Parliament, and liable to be called to aJeount for their unpopular votes, in the way they had seen in more than one instance on recent occasions. —(Hear, bear.) — When a Member was once elected, he should be removed as much as possible from the exhibition of all feelings of a local description, and hold himself the Representative of all the interests of the community. There might be oc casions, too, in which a Meinber would feel himself com pelled to give a vote for the advantage of the country di rectly in opposition to those of his constituents, and he could not, for the life of him, see the propri ety of exposing a number of them to be called to account an all occasions for the votes they may give in the House of Commons. The Noble Lord concluded by expres.ing his conviction that the schedule, as amended in this manner, would put the country in possession of a Reform safe and efficient ; while it would, together with the ad ditional Members for Ireland and Wales, absorb the whole of the Members intended to be taken away by the disen franchisement of the boroughs in the clause A. Lord SEAGRAVE would not have troubled the House with any observations on the question, were it not f6r what bad fallen from the Noble Lord who had spoke last with respect to the town of Cheltenham. That town was, he conceived, fully entitled to have a representation as well from its increasing wealth and population, a. from the amount it paid in taxes to the State. He was convinced, indeed, that even the Noble Baron who moved the amendment • (Ellenborough) would give his vote in favour of the claim s of Cheltenham—(Hear, hear, and a latigh)—and the more so, as that Noble Lord bad lately purchased an estate iu its vicinity. The Noble Lord was also, he believed, an active Member in getting up that Club of Anti-Reformers called Conservatives ; and when their Lordships heard that the Noble Baron considered Cheltenham of importance enough to be honoured with the establishment in it of a branch of the Club, he thought the Noble Baron would scarcely deny to the place he bad made the eat of his private legislation the benefits of public representation.—(Hear, hear.`, But Cheltenham was, above all, entitled to a representa tion o❑ account of the manner in which it bad dis tinguished itself in the late contests, and the zeal with which it had stepped forward in opposition to the claim, of the brother of the Nob'e Duke, whom he saw opposite, (Beaufort) when that Noble Lord refused Ca pledge him self to vote for Reform. On that, and on the best of all grounds, that he believed it could not be resisted, h e should vote against the otnirsion of Cheltenham in the schedule. The Earl of WINCHILSEA was averse to the con ferring of the franchise in Cast's where there were distinct and separate interests which demanded representatives. al though he had from the,first stated it to be his determina tion to support the enfranchisement of the great towns. With respect to the 101. franchise, he thought it was better defined under the old Bill than the present one. In the present Bill the definition of the right was exceedingly vague, and he was convinced that the clause as it stood would be mi.hievous, and lead to practices highly in jurious in the manufacturing districts. Their Lordships heard of the increase of voters, and he saw no reason why a manufacturer, who employed some hundred men, could not place them in small cottages, and by giving them no minally higher wages while he made them pay higher rents, increase i❑ that manner the number of voters. This he was convinced would be one of the consequences of the clause. He objected also to another portio❑ of the Bill —that which gave votes for th' counties to those who already possess votes for towns. He thought they would tend much to take away from the agricultural interests that fair proportion of power which their wealth, and in fluence, and importance in the State entitled them to de mand. After contending that he had always been a❑ ad vocate for the extinction of the rotten boroughs, the Noble Earl argued that he was guilty of no inconsistency in op. posing many portions of the present Bill, which he thought would he subversive of the Constitution, and which he was sure would not be a final settlement of the question ; for before many months passed over their heads, their table would he crowded with petitions from other places for the extension of, or participation in, the right of voting. Lord DURHAM was convinced that the Noble Baron who proposed the amendment did so for the purpose only of recording his own plans, and not that he might lead the House into a protracted discussion of the general prin ciple of that schedule. He thought, therefore, that it would he more convenient for the House to agree to the clause generally; and afterwards to discuss the case of each town, in tire order in which it stood in the schedule. If the Committee allowed the case of each town in the schedule to be discussed separately, and in its order, he would pledge himself to show that every one of those towns was entitled to the representation ; and that the plan of the Noble Loril, instead of putting an end to the agitation of those claims on tire part of other towns, would, on the contrary, give rise to greater bearthurnings and jealousies. The Noble Baron had given three reasons founded upon his own knowledge of the circumstances of Gateshead, to prove that place not to be entitled to the representation. But he (Lord Durham) would under take to prove to the satisfaction of the Committee, that the Noble Baron's reasoning was incorrect. In the first place, the Noble Baron stated that Gateshead was a suburb of Newcastle. Now, he (Lord Durham) could assure the Committee from his own knowledge, that Gateshead never was a suburb of Newcastle. In the second place, the Noble Baron contended that tire interests of the former place were identical with those of the latter; and thirrfl;•, that the trade of the two place,' was the same. Now, in each of those particulars, he (Lord Durham) could assure the Noble Baron, that he was altogether misinformed. He would also undertake to show, as each town came to be discussed, that the amendment of the Noble Baron would, by interfering with the schedule, injure the Bill instead of improving it, and would give great dissatisfac tion to the country, and especially as respected the me tropolitan districts. As to those districts, if the framers of the Bill had erred at all, they had erred in the too great limitation.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of HADDINGTON would not have tres passed on the time of the Committee that night, hut for the prelirnin ,ry observations of the Noble Baron who had just sat down. He would leave it to the Noble Baron and to the Noble Lord near him (Lord Ellenborough) to fight their own battle between them.—(Hear, and a laugh.) His own objections to the present Bill had been from the first, that it allowed no hope of the final settle ment of the question of Retbr►n. Now all that he could say in favour of the Noble Baron's, amendment was, that it did hold out some hope of a final settlement.—(Hear.) That Noble Baron (Lord Ellenborough) had asked how could it be expected that the towns which, to the number of twenty, were entitled to be placed in schedule C and D, would be satisfied after the disappointment of the hopes which the framers of the 13111 had excited ? But be would go farther than the Noble Baron, and would say, that it was impossibl e to give any answer to the arguments which would be alleged in support of the claims of many other towns which were now excluded from the representation, after the places in those schedules should have been en franchised.—(Hear, hear.) In a petition which had that evening been presented, they had a specimen of the sort of claims which such plans would make. Earl DARNLEY assured the Noble Baron opposite (Lord Marlborough) that if the plan now proposed as an amendment had bee❑ brought forward six months ago, he (Lord Darnley) should have been disposed to support it in preference to the present state of the Bill. But now, looking to the quarter from which the amendment came, he was compelled to look upon it with suspicion.— (Cheers.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that he should not press the amendment to a division.—(clear, hear.) The clause was then agreed to. After a desultory conversation, which was not heard below the bar, Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, were severally voted part of the schedule without dissent. On the question being put, that Greenwich stand par of the schedule, Lord ELLENBOROUGH arose amidst cries of " Question," " Adjourn," "Go on," &e. He said that he objected to the insertion of Greenwich and Woolwich in that schedule, because the enfranchisement of those places and the agricultural districts which separate them combined in one borough made way for the operation of that principle, the evil consequences of which he had en deavoured to point out. If the principle that a given population contained within a certain number of square miles should entitle a place to send Members to Parlia ment, where in England was the district in which such a claim might Not he set up ?—(Hear, hear.) But the ob jections which the Nuble Lords opposite themselves bad so often made to nomination boroughs, applied to the enfran chisement of those places, an they would constitute a no mination borou,;h of the most mischievous tendency (Hear, hear.) The two Members would be returned by the United Service—one by the Ordnance, and the other by the Admiralty. Woolwich was a wretched town, consisting chiefly of the houses of ar tifi cers i n the ern- ployment of the Government—of small shops de pendent on those artificers—and of public. houses. He thought that they might just as well give the re presentation to the regiments of artillery as to that place.—(Hear, hear.) Again, Greenwich was thieily the property of the Crown by a recent purchase, so that the voters there would be for the most Fart und,r the influence of the Crown. Must of the principal house holders were retired sifficers ; and surely such a consti tm-ney would render tine place a nomination borough of the worst kind. On these grounds he moved that Frome should be inserted in the schedule instead of Greenwich. The LORD CHANCELLOR was surprised at the ob jections which the Noble B iron now advanced against the enfr inchisement of Greenwich ; because it was, no long time ago, the Noble Baron's principal objection to the pre sent Bill, that it would create a difficulty in the obtaining of seats in Parliament for the members of the Government. But when he remember e d that the Noble Baron eulogized nomination as good in itself; and especially deprecated the destt uction of boroughs for which members of the Admi nistration could be nominated, he (the Lord Chancellor) could not see the congruity of the Noble Baron's argu ment.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He did not say this as agreeing with the Noble Baron that nomination boroughs were such good things, but only to show, that all that he (Lord Ellenborough) had said of Greenwich would be, it it were true, a strong argument why the Noble Baron ought riot to oppose this part of the schedule.— (Hear, hear.) But the fact was, the footing on winch the right of voting was to be put by the Bill before tine Committee was such, that there was no justice in saying that Greenwich would be a nomination 'iorough. That town, taken with the other places which were united with it in the schedule, cont a i ne d a numerous population, pay ing 22,00 W. in assi-sied taxes, and having upwards of 0,000 houses rated above 10 /.—(Hear, hear.) N ow , a great proportion of those houses were occupied by respee• table and wealthy persons connected with the commercial interest; that was well known to every person who was acquainted with the neighbourh oo d o f Greenwich. But perhaps Noble Baron's acquai n t ance theme was con the con fined to a New of the most convenient houses.---(A laugh.) That myna , in fact, the h ea d- quarters, he might say,the roost important b ranches of the trade of this r. co o un a ti interest. —(H ear , he, o districtf one grounds rotinin'edswotfthe shipping opulation , assesseil tax es , an d t r e commercial importance, that district was entitled to the representation. Lord WINCHILSEA rose amidst impatient cries of " Question." He entirely concurred in the opinion of tl Noble Baron near hint (Lord Ellenboruugh), that Green wich would make a borough of the worst description. After some interruption from the calls of " Question !" " Divide !" "Withdraw !" the amendment was negatives), and the original question, that Greenwich stand part o the clause, was agreed to. Sheffield and Sunderland were then severally voted part of the schedule without dissent. On the question that Devonport stand part of the clause, Lord ELLENBOROUGH proposed that the question respecting that town should he adjourned for discussion on another evening, in consequence of the impatience (as lie was understood) which the Committee manifested. Lord DITRHAM thought that it was not yet so late that the Committee might not conveniently go into the discussion then.—(Hear, hear.) Lord WYNFORD would support a motion for adjourn ment if the Noble B iron persevered in making it. The Duke of NEWCASTLE said, that the House seemed to be so little inclined to discuss the details of the Bill, and, indeed, there could be so little good expected from the discussion, that he would recommend it to the Com mittee to vote all the details of the Bill at once, and send it up to a third reading.—(Cheers and laughter.) Lord ELLENBOROUGH was sorry to hear that cheer. It showed that the House had got into a state from which it was not easy to bring it back, and in which it would be impossible to discuss the schedule fairly and temperately. If the Noble Lords persevered in going through the details of the Bill in that manner, he would promise them they should not carry their Bill these six months to come.— (Hear, hear, hear.) However, what had occurred in the House in the earlier part of the night had not deprived burn of the hope that the discussion would be conducted in a proper manner.—(Hear, hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR said the Bill had been discussed, so far as Noble Lords on that (the Ministerial) side of the House were concerned, both fiirly and tempe rate y.—(Hear, hear.) The cheer which gave the Noble _ . l3aro❑ so much dissatisfaction, appeared to him (the Lord Chancellor) to le no other than an expression of good hu mour, in which several Lords near the Noble Baron had joined.—(Hear.) Surely it could not be complained of, that the Noble Duke opposite had net been greeted with a serious cheer, when it was plain that he did not say seri ously what had caused the cheer ; that is, that he wished the Bill to be passed at once.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) As that was the first time the question was introduced as to the hour at which the Committee should adjourn each ni;ht, he thought it would be convenient that the House should then decide that question at once; and there was no reason w by the adjournment should be fixed so early as eleven o'clock. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY wished to ac quaint the Noble Lords opposite•, before the question of adjournment wis decided, that he was determined to take the sense of the Committee respecting the representation of the Tower Hamlets. Lord ELLENBOROUGH expHned, that he proposed the adjournment, not on atcouut of the lateness of the hour, but on account of the impatience manifested by the Committee. Lord WYNFORD thought that Devonport ought to be included with 1 3 !ymouth, and that two Members would then be quite sufficient for both combined.—(Hear.) If Devonport were to have two representatives, all places similarly circumstanced would claim a similar representa tion. At the least, if Devonport were continued in that schedule, the places in schedule D would have a right that their representation should not be diminished. Fmr the sake of that interest (the agricultural), which, although it supported the other two interests (the com mercial and manufacturing), was by this Bill sacrificed to them, he would object to Members being given to this and to many other places in those schedules. The effect of the Bill, upon the whole representation of the country, would be to give no more than 170 Mvmhers to the agri cultural interest, whilst the commercial and manufacturing interests would have 330 representatives.—(Hear.) Lord 31ORLEY assured the Noble and Learned Baron that he underrated the importance of Devonport and the respectability of its inhabitants,—(Hear.) Lord WYNFORD made some reply, which was in audible in cons-quence of the cries of •' Question." Lord ELLENBOROUGH would repeat his former de claration, that it was most dangerous to establish the prin ciple, that places were entitled to representati,tn on account of their possessing a large population and considerable wealth. When that principle should (ince have been re cognized by the Legislature, every place that might here after increase in wealth and population would claim to be represented ; so that the Bill, as it stood, instead of irting, a final measure, would lead to constant change. Devon port was circumstanced similarly to Greenwich, as re spected the influence of the Government. There were two places in schedule It which had each a greater right to two Members than Devonport : be meant Helston and Dartmouth. Lord GREY said, that Devonport was a pl ice of great wealth and independence, and containing 44,000 inhabi tants, and upwards of 6,000 houses rated at 101. In re spect to population and wealth, Frome was greatly inferior to that town. But he would ask the Noble Lords who were acquainttd with those places, what kind of Reform would that be which should give to Helston and Dartmouth the representation which was refused to Devonport ?-( Hear.) The Marquess of SALLSBFRY said, that the import ance of D-vonport was sink.ng considerably. Lord WYNFORI) rose to explain, amidst loud cries of " Question !'' and " Order !" The Noble Lord having resumed his seat, Devonport was voted part of the clause. Alter some conversation respecting the boundaries, which was not audible below the bar, Wolverhampton was voted part of the clause. The Committee then adjourned to Tuesday; the Chair man reported prowess, and the other orders of the day being disposed of, the House adjourned at a few minute s after Twelve o'clock. HO USE OF COMMONS, MAY 21. Lord INGESTRIE presented a petition against the armingharn and London Railroad Bill.—Referred to the Committee on the Bill. Mr. HUME brought up a report of the Committee (with amendments) upon the Tower Hamlets Small Debts Bill.—The amendments were read a second time. Mr. Alderman WOOD brought up a report of the Committee (with amendments) upon the General Cemetery Bill. The amendments were read a second time. Mr. KENNEDY presented petitions front the Corpo. rations of the burghs of Ayr and Irvine, in favour of the Glasgow and Edinburgh Railway Bill. Sir A. AGNEW preened apetition from the Synod of Galloway, against the proposed system of education in Ireland. Sir C. FERGUSSON said he had rec , ived a letter from a clergyman who attended the Synod, and who declared that so far from the petition being unanimously agreed to, it was only carried by the casting voice of the Moderator. He (Mr. C. Fergusson) would not provoke any discussion upon Cl's subject, but he could not refrain from expressing his opinion that the petition was founded on an entire mistake, and so were many speeches of Hon. Members in that House. The petition stated that by the proposed system only certain portions of the Scriptures were to be used. That was an entire mistake ; for there was to be a general and joint mode adopted in the moral, literary, and classical education, but there was to be a separate religious instruction for different religious persuasions, arid there was nothing to prohibit the children from baying the whole of the Bible. It was merely that the Catholic should have nothing to do with the religious instructian of the Protestant, nor the Protestant with the Catholic. Mr. O'CONNELL gaid,if one allegation, viz. that of the Protestant being deprived of the use of the entire Scriptures, be true, he would oppose the scheme as readily as any Protestant gentleman in the House. All the Catho lics claimed was that the use of the Scriptures as a school. book should not be enforced on the Catholic chi'dren. The grossest oppression had been practised by the Irish landlords i n compelling Catholic parents to send their children, under the threat of starvation, to the Kildare-street schools, and it was against such a system he comphined. The Catholic did not want to interfere with the religious edu cation of tee Protestant, and it was only just that the Pro tant should not interfere in the education of the Catholic. If the Ministry had not been a Reforming Ministry, there would not have been half the outcry there had been. Ile wa s sorry to see the intelligent p eop l e o f Scotland express the opinions they had done on the subject. The plan in trottuced by his Majesty's Government was not dictated or required by the Catholics. They ihibdaerdeinon,rocbeodubtjuecpatolilioi steheey ti r ie eq S u :ir re ir d itu n r ,a e! , it t i ha t t h i e t h sh an o d u s ld of n c o h t objection a t o t Ca tholic children as a schoolbook. Colonel LINDSAY thought the plan Would fail of ac complishing a united system of education in the country. Mr. JAMES JOHNSON disclaimed, on the part of Scotland, any cant or hypocrisy in their opposition to the measure. FERGUSSON considered the opposition to the measure had originated in party spirit, and thought it ex tremely unfortunate when a measure brought forward avowedly for the purpose of reconciling all parties, and pro moting harmony among children of all classes, should have been met in the manner it had been in the present ease. He trusted that House would never become the theatre of theological discussion. Sir B. BATESON declared that there never was a subject in which so little political feeling had been extr eised as the present. The opposition to this measure vgb.s founded in truth, and would every day be stronger a 1,,) stronger. After some observations from Mr. Keith Douglass, Mr. C. Fergusson, Mr. Shaw, Mr. O'Connell, and Captain Gordon, the petition was read, and ordered to be printed. The HoN. MEMBER then presented two other petitions to the same effect. Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR, on being called upon by the Speaker, said he appeared with his Majesty's an swer to the Address of that House. His llajesty had most graciously received the Address, and i❑ answer said, that the state of public affairs since the 10th day of May would account for any delay in the returning of an answer to that Address. He trusted that it was now unnecessary, since what had since transpired had prevented the necessity of any change in his Majesty's Councils. The LORD ADVOCATE then moved the second read ing of the Scotch Reform Bill, when Lord STORMONT said he would take that oppor tunity to bring before the notice of the House some of the most scandalous and seditious libels which had ever di graced the history of the press in this country. It also appeared that up to the present time they had been allowed to go unpunished. They were so obscene that he knew not how to discriminate between them, he would, how ever, take one which he found in a paper called the Satirist, of the lath May, which began,—" What the d—l is the House of Brunswick to us, abstractedly speaking, more than the poorest sausagemaker in Ger many," &c. The Noble Lord read the alleged libel at full lenth, of which the above is a sample; having concluded, he said—Was it possible that such a pub. lication as that should be allowed to continue, while the Law Officers of the Crown were looking on and appearing to approve of them by their inertness? As a loyal subject he could not but take that opportunity of insisting that the Attorney-General should do his duty and punish such scandalous publications. He called upon Government to say what steps had been taken or were contemplated for the author's punishment. It on a former occasion had been said that the authors of such articles were best left to the contempt of the virtuous part of the public•, but he would ask what such persons, as could sit down and write such a treasonable article as be had read, cared for the opinions not only of the virtuous part of the public, but for the whole of the kingdom ? Sir T. DENMAN was glad of the opportunity afforded him of explaining to the House what he thought of the articles brought under the notice of the House by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord would also give him leave to state to the House, that he had called upon him (Sir T. Denman) in private, and pointed nut many articles to him, and he would now state his views upon the whole subject. A very erroneous opinion seemed to be abroad of the powers of the Attorney-General; it was thought that that personage had only to issue his fiat, and then there would be an end to all such articles as that read by the Noble Lord ; but he must tell the House that that officer had no such power, nor in fact more than any per son, he could only bring the party before a Jury of his country. His tirtn belief, founded on observations since he had been in office, and what he had before observed was, that nothing benefited the libeller so much as bringing him into Courts of Justice, and there was no advertisement half so valuable as bringing hint before a Jury; and also that whether the trial ended in a victory on his part, or whe ther he were found guilty —and if so, he would be considered a martyr—he would derive considerable benefit from it. 'With regard to personal invective, how ever disgusting or provoking, he (the Attorney-Gene ral) conceived that the indignation and contempt of society would be the best mode of receiving it, and even the silence produced by that contempt would be a punishment on the libeller. Ile was in hopes, how ever, that the present number of such publications would gradually diminish, and, indeed, he knew for many months they had been decreased. He would now advert to what had been done by his predecessors in such cases, but not for the purpose of blaming them, or of recriminating upon them. His Hon. and Learned Friend opposite did not de part while in office from the forbearance of his predecessors, but allowed such publications to pies unnoticed, even in the most provoking periods. In 1819, some of the roost atrocious publications issued from the Press, even recom mending assassination and forgery, but they all passed without prosecution, not because there was a want of a feeling of indignation against the authors, but because there were inconveniences, to which he had alluded, in prosecuting them. He would just advert to what had taken place under his own observation. In May, 1822, he sat for the first time as Common Sergeant of London, when he was called upon to try a libel of a most atrocious and profligate deaeription, published in the Re. publican. That paper had gone on for months unprose cuted by the Attorney-General (Sir J. Copley), but at length the author was brought before him for trial. The in dictment contained eleven counts, charging the roost blasphemous libels and incitements to rebellion, and the prosecution was conducted, not by the Attorney-General, but by an Association. After the defendant was found guilty, be felt it his duty to pass sentence of 18 months' imprisonment upon him, and for that sentence he had been subject to attacks, arid to charges of severity and cruelty. He therefore felt a very great disinclination to proceed ex-officio against any persons for expressing what they firmly believed to be their conscientious opinions, and trusted that the good sense of the people would make them reject such publications with indignation. As lone as a writer honestly expressed his opinions, and his opinions only—as long as it was possible to give him credit for sincerity—he (the Attorney-General) was greatly disinclined to prosecute.----(Hear, hear.) The case %v.'s widely different when a writer's object was to incite to crime, and in the instance to which he alluded, the de fendant was only twenty-one years o'd, and, perhaps, had no improper motive. When, therefore, the term of im prisonment expired, it was a great comfort and gratifica tion to him (the Attorney-General.) Why did he say this? Because the liberty of the Press being established in this country, men were invited to publish their honest opinions and there ought to be no torturer behind who might pro secute them, and throw them into a dungeon for an un defined offence. The very existence of the liberty of the Press ought to make Attorneys-General cautions how they proceeded to extremities. The only question with a public officer undoubtedly was, what was his duty, and how could he best execute it ; he (the Attorney-General) was not disposed to shrink fro m i t; b ut t hi s be must say, that fromlB2 2to 1829, there w as a l most a total cessa tionprosecutions for hbers, not because they were not rife and aggravated, but because it was thought wiser policy to let them alone.—(Cheers.) What had happened in 1829 was very remarkable. His Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Scarlett) was then Attorney-General, and a must gross and scandalous libel was printed, not in an obscure publication, like the Satirist hunted out of sonic corner, but in a well-known newspaper, the Morning Journal, supported by a cons id erable capital, and by great names : that libel was directed against his present Majesty when Duke of Clarence, and in it it was boldly asserted that by his vote on the Roman Catholic Question he had for feited his right to the Throne, and never could recover his title to it. Yet for this publication no prosecution had been instituted, and when the editor of the Morning Journal was afterwards proceeded against, the jury wished that he should not be brought up for judgment, and even that he had not been prosecuted, on account of the excite ment prevailing in the public mind. He begged also to state that, in that year, a Noble and Learned Lord, who was reported to have spoken lately in another phee, was nut only then a Member, but a leading Member of the Government. Yet the libel on the Duke of Clarence was then unnotic,d, and on this point he did not mean to blame them ; only it would have been quite as wise if the Lord Chancellor of that day had exhibited equal for bearance in his own case, and had not indicted the editor of the Morning Journal in the Court of King's Bench for a paragraph, which stated that he had accepted a bribe of 30,0001. for making the Hon. Member for St. Mawes, Solicitor-General. Thus it seemed that the ex-officio power of the Attorney-General had been allowed for a „ long tim e t o s l eep , an d h a d i t not been awakened for the . - purpose of proceeding against the Morning Journal, that paper would have expired much sooner in the contempt and derision of all parties. In fact, it owed soul. fur stamps, and as the process for that sum was sent in on the eve of the trial, a degree of sympathy was excited, and subscriptions front Dukes and Peers were poured in from all quarters, which supported it much longer than it would otherwise hive existed. For these reasons he was averse to proceedings of the kind, and had only prosecuted ex-officio eases which incited to cri►ne, and aimed at the disturbance of the public peace. Even to this extent he had met with little encouragement from Juries, for it was impossible to tell whether even a single individual amongst them, by his obstinacy, might not defeat the ends of justice. In the cases of Garble and Cohbett, the Go vernment had proceeded, and he had very recently met with Carlile's statement to him, which, if the House had any curiosity on the subject, he would read to them.— (No, no.) In the case of Cobbett, Government was de feated, and the Jury discharged, owing to the perseverance of one Juryman; and it was impossible for the prosecutor to dig int., the heart of society en every occasion, in order to ascertain what were the political sentiments of those who were - called upon to try the accused. S uc h was hi s (the Attorney-General's) answer to the Noble Lord's ques tion ; and it he thought proper to submit any papers to • . his private consideration, he. would promise to give theta hie best consideration . . Allusion had been made to slan derous attacks upon females of the highest rank. No• thing could be more disgusting; but it seemed to him that it would be taking a great liberty if he proceeded without special instructions.--(Hear, hear.) By a trial in a Court of Justice they might sometimes be placed in a worse situation, for,which they certainly would have no reason to thank him. In the present excitement of the public mind no doubt many improper produCtiona bad issued from the Press, but he hoped that the final settle ment of the great question would now render their tecur• rence improbable. He was happy that the censure upon his conduct for not proceedin g against Newspapers was impartial ; at least, it cause from all quarters ; and certainly if he selected' any one for prosecution, it would he the Times of Friday last.—(Lnuil cheers from the Opposition Benches)—which had obviously falsified what occurred in another place, and in a manner most abominably libellous, had attributed a speech to a Noble and Learned 1 Criminal Judge, which he could never have uttered, and the publication of which ought to he severely visited.—(Cheers and laughter from the Ministerial Benches.) That Noble and Learned Judge, who might be called upon at the Old Bailey to preside at the trial, had himself prejudged the question in the most positive terms; and after pro nouncing that cert :in articles were a notorious libel, had called upon the Attorney-General to prosecute; nay, to Buell an extreme of infamy had this pretended reporter gone, that he had represented the Noble and Learned ; Judge as accusing the Attorney-General of misprision of treason for not commencing a prosecution. Suppose the Attorney-General were to prosecute, and that Noble and Learned Judge were to preside, what chance could the unfortunate accused have in such a case, of acquittal?— The case, too, might be brought before the House of Peers under writ of error, and then it would be the pe culiar province of that Noble and Learned Judge to advise their Lordships. To assign such a speech to such a per- son was, therefore, a libel of the most gross and injurious 1 character; and that it was so, was evident from another circumstance, that the Speaker was made to go out of his way to attack the Attorney• General ; for what had it to do with the subject of the debate, and the attendance of the Noble Lord upon the King at Windsor?—(Cheers.) The whole WAS; a foul and atrocious libel, for which he undertook to proceed, as soon as the Noble and Learnnd Lord denied upon oath that there was any truth in the representation.—(Cheers and laughter.) He (the At torney-General) was the less willing to believe that any thing of the kind could have fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, because they had formerly been upon terms of intimacy : lie owed great obligations to the Noble and Learned Lord, who was something his senior when first he began to enter into the conversations of men. By his excel lent judgment and sagacious mind, that Noble and Learned Lord had confirmed him(theAttorney-General)in his attach ment to liberal opinions, which he for one would never de sert or betray.—(Cheers and laughter.) He did not here speak of notions confided to him as a friend, but of decla rations boastfully and ambitiously brought forward by the Noble Lord many years ago, " I am (said the Noble and Learned Lord) a disciple and admirer of Sir Samuel Romilly ; I bate and despise bigotry, and therefore I main tain the justice of Catholic claims; and I think Reform in the representation of the people essential to the preset.- ration of the peace of society and the welfare of the State. —(Cheers and laughter from all side.%) Sir C. WETHERELL agreed that every 1ib:1 ought not to be prosecuted ; but he did not on this account hold with the Attorney-General, that he was at once to be driven from the field by writers of every description in pamphlets, newspapers, and ephemeral publications. The question adverted to the general state of the Press, a matter very fit for the attention of the Attorney-General, and it bad particular reference to the personal attacks upon the Queen. The Attorney-General answered, that he had not prosecuted because he had had no particular instruc tions ; but what were become of her Majesty's Attorney- General and Solicitor -General ? Hail the Hon. Member for Middlesex, or some other economist, abolished those offices, that be did not see either of them present on an occasion like t his, when such infamous, unmanly, un gentlemanlike, un-Enelishmanlike libels were under dis- ' cussion ?—( .11r. J. Williams here made himself obvious to the Hon. Member.) He was happy to see that one of them at least was in his place, and he might in his presence ex press his doubt whether, under such circumstances, it was either the duty or the practice of the law officers of the Crown to wait for express instructions. The Attorney- General bad entered into a long, and be must call it a de lusive statement,_ into which he bad introduced a sort of episode about himself, which might be very pleasant, al- I though he could not congratulate the Hon. and Learned ", Gentleman on its logical connexion with the subject of discussion. The upshot of his speech was, that the At torney-General was in no case to prosecute, and he had attempted to strengthen his argument by reference to cer tain libels upon his Majesty when Duke of Clarence, which he (Sir C. Wetherell), as was asserted, ought to have pro secuted. He doubted, however, whether he was in office at the time, and, at all events, at that date his hands were tied, and his teeth drawn. Who was it that called on the Attorney-General to restrain the Press ?—who was it that called on him to restrain the freedom of debate ? No one that they had heard yet. The Attorney-General s :id that freedom of opinion ought not to be extin gui shed. He agreed with the Attorney-General in that respect ; but they ought to see whether there were not some who, in the exercise of their freedom of _ opinion, exercised the greatest tyranny towards others.— ( Hear, hear.) The Attorney-General said that there had been a great degree of excitement on the subject of the Reform Bill. That was true. The excitement had been greater than perhaps was ever known on any question, and a large allowance must be made for that excitement. • But then, though he did not call on the Attorney-General to look into every book and every sheet that was published with a view to search out libels, yet, when the Attorney- General asked whether it was his duty to extinguish the Press, he (Sir C. Wetherell) had a right to retaliate the the t p h r e op H os “ i n ti . on a , n a d ni L l t e o u s r a ie y d th a at en n t o le m m a a n nt wh ou o g fi h l t led to the su o ff ffi er ce House of Brunswick to be libelled as it had been.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed to fancy that he had worked his salvation as Attorney-Ge neral by having brought the authors of two libels into a Court o f J ust i ce. Th ese two prosecut i ons were in the cases of Cobbett and Carble, for recommending the burning of hay-stacks; and the Attorney-General sup posed that, because he had prosecuted these two cases, notwithstanding that the Crown was libelled, that the Queen was libelled, that the whole of the Royal Family were libelled, that both the Houses of Legislature were libelled; notwithstanding all this, he had done suffi•lent to work out his salvation as Attorney-General. But the Hots. and Learned Gentleman was wrong in that respect ; for though recommending people to set barns on fire was a grievous offence, yet in the preservation of the Monarchy, in the preservation of the Monarch and of the family of the Monarch, and of the personal respect due to the Monarch and his fatuity, the considerations were fully as important—(Hear bear)—fully as important as whe ther, under particular circumstances, a man had or riot burnt a barn or a haystack.—(Hear.) But the Learned Attorney-General did not go by that rule—he put the British Monarchy in one scale, and these recommendations to burn stacks of hay and straw in the other ; and though he (Si r C. W.) should say that the British Monarchy was of the more value, yet the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Attorney-General did not seem at all to entertain that opinion. "No (said his Majesty's At torney-General), I Lawa nor o ffi propereesrotshleovifirliett:hi et r eo dai s tclpreaos.t h s,: ! nt o tt u ; ; oo. lt e, care little for that, as long as I can get hold of men who have recommended others to burn three loads of sainfotti." —(A laugh.) That was the judgment of the Attorney- General. But then, said the Att orney -General, it was onfottheusuyo:_tsetGeeasiel:onfetil,riilaeliniboeathlt.itcailtitipna Ge nerally that was true; but there were cases in which that ( Phi lie ur a es r de , h h itoa e d ar ad . l ) rev Tlie Hon. and Learned Attorney-General, however, was not content with making these grounds qf defence for himself, but he must needs lug head, neck, and shoulders into th;s nebate, a Noble and Learned Lord who had had nothing to do with it. What bad that Noble and Learned Loid done to call for this treatment at the hands of the Attorney-General? Why was be thus treated ? Why, but because he had been called on by his Majesty, in his character as a Privy Coun sellor, to do that which he was bound to do—(Hear, hear)—yes, bound to do—bound on oath to do it, for every P r i vy Counsellor took an oath to advise his Majesty to the best of his power whenever he should be called on by his Majesty to do so. F or d o i ng that li e h a d been visited by the Hon. and Learned At ' torney-General, and in his absence also, most severely; and the Hon. and Learned Attoi nr) -General had in that way replenished the barrenness of his speech with a fer tility which had nothing to do with it. Ede (Sir Charles Wetherell) was prepared to go as far as any man in al lotting full liberty of opinion, but personal abuse and poli twat intimidation were a sort of tyranny exercised by the Press—(Hear, hear)—and were now grown so virulent --(Hear, hear)--that he pot them on quite a different ground, and altogether discarded them front the rule as to the liberty of the Pres s.—(llear.) Were not most of the articles now written in the papers written not to con vince but to intimidate —n ot to influence the judgment by reason, but to beat down opposition by intimidation, by intimidating the King and the Peers for daring, to exercise