The Sun. — London, England, 1801-12-15 00:00:00

V befoT' few le he sea 4 n try, I I he forme' of what .se petit ork:' ;e rn tllO to learn it ; bUCI the 01. 1 " t'eti th o in ergs stoop lr. untie: a prln' .ing 1 10 , It WO the trO 6 r to ptl l. l cunder, qu;fstioll .'eticioil s y- weret i eft thel, i Couo' ,stpncew , of dealt colper,e' aiihou [all N 4( t 3L PI wt.ll "le .w of thi s ( 0) it,loil 'l`l. rote SO to bialo these' e 01 truth did no t , due t° Ile sena' wilizt l e ,sue, lass it it user tf be sort/ ie shol l l. uilitat° say', ng t beT e way Wit,. I 4 ; ;cite no t li the tri' t 4 who i', re, 10/ 4 it node;uns not{ ury (a t ' said for/ •tltne e it 0 1 pitts , '"' o f S ate bt, press - if o f ta, r i :ail its',. which • 'fic CO ' ; t Id rieod, Jclrstr f I naoo sig 11 :; nrnellt )n, of 1 4- ) ao" le a lw"l r r the interpo,4, I Of cep ` I .t : , 0,,;a not ,o, ( ! t 'e Enpar 4t i l le," :he t' " r ' o rot l : ppos ,1" ~4 .I;Ct 5 a , of Y• 71SCI“It d ( .4 )j ril too s • siol l ~4el on w II :e frool !flic F l'"ould.do, to the encouragement of Agriculture by '1 encouraging 'the growth of Grain. The - objea oflls ., Hon. Friends who supported the Motion now before the Hnure, he knew to be daudable ; it Was to keep within proper bounds, the price of the ne cessary articles of life.. He was happy to say there • was on this occasion but one contest betweco the Members of that House, which was, who could' most usefully promote the welfare of the Public, at large ; the difference was only as to' the Means by which that intetest was to be promoted. In the discussion of which, on this occasion, he was aware he should be under the necessity of going over the ground he had gone over on former occasions, in a great measure ; but the nature of the subject • ren dered that unavoidable, /and he should do it with as Thuch brevity as possible. It was admitted, not as a thing founded on cotijeaure, but ascertained as a fat, and the information was in the possession of the. House ; it was the result of much investigation before a Committee appointed by the Ho'use. He thou g ht he should be able to prove before he sat down, it was impossible that so large a quantity of Barley should be employed in the Distilleries ay had been already stated; and the- view which he llati of the subjeal, etnhraced, in his- apprehension, the in *crests of the Poor ; and what was equally import ' ant, although nothing could be more so, the Interest of that class of the Community. Whi i ch was immedi-• ately above the Poor—a great and an important and Yaluable class of the Community in width we live ; to all whom, as well as to the Poor, the opening of thca-matitterylvataansefut, in his opinion, and highly valuable, on account of the circa which the Refuse of. the Distillery would have on, the price of the tiff ' ferenr articles of Butchers' Meat. His Honours_ hie Friend, had stated, that in t 795 and 1796, it Wes determined that the Distilleries should be ;tapped when ahe price of Barley was' about 35 Or . 365. per quarter. Now he would refer to a Report of a Committee to which he' had already alluded : parliament met before Christmas, and in March, rBOO, the price of Barley, at the highest, was at 88s. the lowest 685.: it rose afterwards to 9os. and Sts. Be it recolletted, that while the price of Bar ley was thus most ehortnously high, the • price lof utchers' Meat was lower than it is now, and yet . the Committee thought *then that the Distilleries ought not to be stopped. The highest price of tittle at this day was 48s: and at that price very tittle was sold ; whereas the highest price then Was 4 )ls. An opinion was entertained then, that the Price of Food would be affeCted by' theatOppage of the Distilleries. The Committee proceeded to ex %nine that.subjett.—[Hete Mr. A.DD I NGTON read the Report of the Committee, the - result of which vas, that when Butchers' Meat was lower than it i% at-present, and the price of Barley otS: instead of I.Bs. still it was 'not expedient to continue the ae ttrialon upon the Distilleries.] --He then observed, that if the Committee aCted . rightly then, there Could be no doubt of opening the Distilleries now. "a -Thus the matter stood with regard , to England : 4 % to Scotland, at this time, .he was glad to observe, that the_price of labour there was sufficient to en able an industriou's labourer to subsist in comfort. ;the peck of meal was at 15ila 'and - the:price of-la °our 2od. a day; by which it appeared there was iks danger in that quarter from the opeoing of the Distilleries ; but, independent of this considera tion, there was anothei, to which he- wished the douse to attach considerable importance : it was this-a-that any attempt to put a stop to the Dis tilleries by-Law, would have, the certain eifeet, 'tot of lessening . the Distilleries, but of driving it to another quarter, which would be most injurious ,to the Revenue, by-making it run in a channel of Illicit praftice, in which tberb were many who were very expert in that part of the Kingdom, and for which- the disposition of the populace was ex tremely favotlaable, Of whieh he had information, bY letter, from ; friend this day (who was perk-ally tespealablei but whose name the House would see t he propriety of his passing by), stating,. that in 3 eizing some spirits made clandestinely, the Officers °l s the Revenue were obliged to abandon the attempt, until the .Military came to their as ti4tancea—that they were, opposed by more than fifty persons, and that it, was. extremely doubt flll whether at last they would succeed in their °Neel. Having ,read the substance of this letter, he observed it proved the dispositionof the lower classes of the People in that part of the King dom in folrour of this clandestine trade ; consider 4ag, therefore, that this praCtice would continue if. the Distilleries were stopped, to the injury of ahe -evenue, and considering therewas no apprehen.: tion in the present price of the articles of life and the price of labour, that the Poor would in the least legree l , nor the class immediately above them be Nored, the policy of opening the Distilleries in that part of the Kingdom was tnanifest. wasa 'ell known, that by the Aft of Union, no distinc tion was taken betreers Spirits distilled from Grain dad that of Molasses; it was required by the Aril, °EUniora.that the -same. should, be attached to - Loth in England andireland. Now it might hap_ fen that the price of Barley should be high in "tc and- low in the other of these parts of t he United Kingdom ; the evils resulting from tohieh, in the event of .the_ _Distilleries. being. - 'topped, he expatiated upon, in the present most a bundant - state of produce in Ireland; particularly of. t ttaroes'and Oats. If the Distilleries were stopped, - r• now proposed, he argued that it would be most Injurious to Agriculture both in Ir4andand in Eng and,atiodar the present, circumstances, by discou. „a . r a ging the Land Owner in both ; and as to the,. m l.t.illery from,, Molasses, it Would not answer the tlrpose es a marketable article. The spirit thus ex rated not suiting the taste of the Public, and parti tatltatly-ofthe Irish People; the consequence of which 'ouid be, that this sort of article would be under 'old v by those who smuggled the other from grain. was'scrfully_imptessed with : this idea, that ap- . l; Ying - it Spirits; particularly in Ireland, pata doxical irk Might seem, .he was convinced, that discourage the consumption of Spirits, : was to li cense Ole distillation of them, because, while they W ere th licensed,- the progress nfinaking them, and of sale, was open and' sabjeCt to observation : whereas, by atteMpting to—atop the trade al toge thera it was driven into obscure, - corners,. where it Iv a ,s imPosible to find 'it out, and where the danger ar 'slog from too much.ase, of the article, • was inUCII. greater than it would be if the trade:was Public,— : Besides, this trade was prOhibited, he was aware that the smuggling would besuchfrqin Ireland here, that it could not be in the poWei of those who tilled from .MolasSes to' stand the, coMpetitipn ; for not only would Much distillaiion go: on in Ireland, which, from circumstances peculiar to that Country, the Officers of the Revenue cell;', in some cases not suppress, and in other could not deiCtf; but besides large quantities of Spirits would be brought there frOm the Continent, and which would find their way into thiS country, notwithstanding all the vigilance 'tve could use to prevent thattrallick voe should therefore. be giving avv ay the 'Revenue, without diminishing ihe con- sumption of Spirits, by stopping the Distillcrie. I As to Cite consumption of. Barley between this and February next, by means of the Distilleries, it was extraordinary ihat any body could suppose it could iffe& the price of Grain, for he was inforMed from a person on whom he could rely, that in addition to what there is in hand, there will not be wanted of Barley more than to,Ooo quarters : a quantity the consumption of which, he was persuaded, could not Operate materially on the price of that article : the price' of which at present , he was happy to say, made the quay tern loaf of. Barley-bread only 64-d.—a price at which those who were disposed to eat it, and in the part of the Country where it was common, did not amount to any hardship to the purchaser. This got .over one of the most Material objections which had been stated against opening of the Distilleries, since it kept clear of the distress to the Poor and the class . immediately above them. - He apprehended that the t'JperafiDn of stopping the Distilleries would be,that of injuring the Trade of Ireland ; it would be go ing a great way towards exhausting the pr'oduee of that Country, and that without diminishing . the . consumptton of Spirits either there or here ; for the deficiency would be made by foreign supply, and whieb; after being.imported into Ireland, would come from thence into England. The stoppage of the Di stilleries would be still more dangerous than he had yet mentioned in this Debate. It would,check the commerce of Corn between the two Countries. — Gentlemen said, it would be a good measure to provide, that When Barley came to a certain• price the Distillation of it should cease. This was a rule which could not he, made applicable to Ireland.in the present condition of things, •as established by Law. There was no such thing as getting the Avetage Price of Grain as between- England , and 'lreland, because - the Trade in that article was not perkaly, free. The Average between England and Scotland, or between England and Wales, could 'never have been taken, if' the Trade in the article 'was not free. , The Trade between England and Ire land in that article was not free... He knew that by the AA of 'Onion, a period of zo years hid been 'fixt upon beftire.the People:of the two, Countries were to be called upon to pay alike to the State in every particular,, accordingly there must be a dis tindion observed in the regulations of some articles Of trade, but he did not think that dodrine applica ble to the commerce of Grain, which, he thought should be a's free as posSible, as an encouragement to - the Agriculture of that country, that having. the mostdireet tendency:to preserve the tranquillity, and b i Y prornoting the interest.of the residentland ed'proprietor, contributing to make the inhabitants a greater, more powerful, and happier Part, than thFy are at present, of the British .Empire. Now it was to'be observed, that this.Cqpntry. either did, or it did not furnish suilicientfood for its inhabi; ' tants : If it did, there was no apprehension from its draWing s any from Ireland by means of the Distil lerY. If it did not - there was no reason why, we should not pay to Ireland the pride we must otherwise pay to the' Continent for What We want--=He knew that Sueli - a change as he 'allude - a to, could not, and it. ought not, to -be adopted 'Without great .considera tion.--He knew also, it would involve questions of great private interest ; but he i stated this to shew, that'.until such a system be adopted, .we shall be un der difficullies, not only such as he had enumerated, but many others. He was unwilling to trespass further Upon :the attention of ,the House; lie had stated many, but not all the objeftions he saw to the Motion before' the House ;. but if they, had less weight titan they had, he was satisfied, they would be ffi sutient against the Motion now before the 'Honse. It was now : Ave' weeks since it was stated, therewas no desire by Government,,to continue the Restridioo on the Distilleries ; during. which :no Motion had been made in the House for that con-: Itinuance. Many Gentlemen had gone into the. Cour._ :try, not to enjoy the Recess merely, but also to ad„, minister comfort to those of :their neighbours who were interCsted in their presence. He did not think it Was respedful to them to agitate a, Proposition like this in the HouSe in their absence. He knew, that if any thing demanded theitattendance,' they would consider it as a paramount obligation, and they would come up from the. different parts. of , the Country, where they . now are conduding concerns, in many respects highly intetesting to the, Community ; and he must say, that no. case had .been made out which called'for their attendance on `this Motion ; nor did there appear to be any thing :like a sufficient reason for changing ,a system (for this Motion went to that) which had been adopted for' so many years in this Country, the .benefi. cial effias of which 'had been so often felt for he . . took it to be a maxim_ in Politics, that no esta blished. system` should be- changedi until its ,e,yils were clearly, established, and the utility of that.pro posed in its stead was plainly Proved. .Such war, not the case' here, but the contrary, for which reason h e would not concur in any Motion like He opposed it from clear conviClion ~of itn,. propriety .at this , moment, , and ~not. from,any' . pertinacity or adherence to his foruwr opinion on the subjea : ' Not saying that: he . could nexee., chtn g e that opinion, if, upon given. citrctimstan- . :. ces, which did not appear at licserit, the ge neral interest of the Community„shOuld require it., He was not presumptuous enough to say that circumstances might not change his opini%i, upon this matter ; all he said' was, that such circumstances: did not:appear at present. As toithe private cha_.. raC.ier as well_as the public,condutt of those Gentle- . men who were in the trade. of the Distillery, he. must observe, there was no qi,?sof His Majesty's subjeCis more respectable-4his he did not utter for .~4` . . _ the Sake of payitog .theal '4 compliment, but giv Tog them tl:eir due, and the Public were interested in having that: truth made n i tanifest ; , for it was not merely the capital which Was, embarked in: this. Trade that was to be considered, there was to be considerek skill, integrity; and as it were certain hereditary dispositions ethbarked in :this Trade; the fidelity of which depended in a great degree on succession. It, \vas *a Trade which had, grown to - a size. beyond -the capital- which any individual _could readily throw into it ;: -it was in a very few hands, t4t not like some other trades,. which were in a fe \ l / 2 , hands, managed .by cqmbination ; on the contiarY, its profess,ors had sacrificed their i?rivate interest to public advan; tage for.the security of the Revenue, therefore, as well as for public justice, great conSideption was due to those Gentlemen,cor .if they were made to quit the Trade,, they would leave, a ,great chasm, Which would not be easily supplied, and he knew who would be their Successors; those ,who world seek their present ,emolument in _England, by pratti ces similar to those, of which there is too much reason to complain in Scotland and in Ireland.— On these various considerations, which be would not recapitulate, he felt it his duty to oppose this Motion. He wotild have been inclined to move the previous question, but that was impossible, for the Motion was for leave to bring in a Bill to continue a LaW now in. being. The Huse would observe that by, negativing this Motion it would not give up its power over this subjed whenever it became 'neces sary to exercise such power. Mr:RORSON was of opinion, the Country was not in a state to allow the Distilleries to be opened. If it was right, he said, to prohibit Distillation in December last; it was equally right at the present moment. ; The Beer. that. was 'at vesent brewed, was, he said, , nbtdrinkableand would the House agree to suffer that to go. to DistillerieS which ought to he appropriated to the Brewery ? The price of Grain had, he contended, been constently falling, until it was known, that, the DistillerieS would be again opened ; since which period, it had been continually rising.' • MANNING spoke briefly upon the subjeft, but in so low a tone of voice," that we could only colleft an expression of his wish, 'that every en cOural..,ement should be given to Distillers, in the 'use of Molasses, acid an observation that the Re venue was materially: concerned with respea to . that ar:icle ankSugar. TheCHANC ELLoR of the EXCH EQU ER explained. Mr. N. , VANSI7 . 7 I .4RT observed that the' whole duty upon Sugar was drawn back upon exportatiOn, and that therefore the Revenue •was only benefited , by so', much of that article as was used for home consumption. - -An encouragement was, 'he said, expressly given to the. 'use of 'Molasses in distills . tion, which might always be purchased for that purpose. . Me..JONES , thought it his_duty to vote fbr the present Motion, if compelled to snake a choice be.: tween one extreme and the other, but he would rather join in pursuing some middle course. If a Committee was appointed to investigate the subject, i t might per. haps be the better mode. He acknlwledged, that, a defalcation of Revenue to the amount of 400,0001. was a serious consideration, but it ought not to weigh with the:House when placed in competition with the means of human subsistence. He took notice of the Petitions to the Lords of the Treasury, riten:, tioned by the CHAIWELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER, - which he thought, appeared somewhat uncoLti- ' tucional. He thought, the House ought not to adjourn. without adopting some measure relative to this subject.• Air..NICHOLLS said,..this appeared to 'be really - a question between the Sugar Planters on the one hand, and . the Barley Growers' do . the other, and whether the West-India Planters should be prefer- , red to. the Landed Interest' of ,this• Country, He conceived that the Corn Trade was etttremely bene- '. filed by the quantity cf Grain :Used in the 'Distil leries ; though he-admitted thatia case might arise ' when it might be proper to prohibit - the use of ' Grain in distillation ; but was such a• case made ' out in the present instance ?...-- , He thought not. :If such a prohibition took place, .he ':was convinced a great blow would be given to Agriculture. Let it be considered at what a high price the seed hail been put into. theground, and if the price of Grain was kept low, by prohibiting its ttsain distillation, there was no , doubt such ‘a measure would throw 'a damp upon the spirit of AgrieullUres, and those who agreed 'td such a measure, Would soon have - reason to repent of it , most bitterlY. The West India Planters had, be sao,. , tittring, the last seven years,, been acquiring ' :forttines; even beyond the dreams of Avarice, whilst .many of thelittie Farmers of this Country had been , ruined. He was convinced the Milt Distiller? waS of 'material benefit to the Conntryond hOwever hemight , , l agree, that the' use of Barley,' when . at . a high"price I' [ itla seaso n' of Scarcity, t ought` to. 'be prohibited in' 'Distillation, yet; he wits also: convinced 'that the :present price of 'Barley was by no means above an ordinary level. . t Mr Ifr: DUN D4S expresSed his . wish to offer ,a few Observations, and first to notice what f4ll froM 'an 'Hon. Gentleman opposite' to him, respeCting. : what he',.c'alled T,reasury Petitions, and which he :seemed to say ' to . the, number of . go, had been smuggled from the - vie'w of the House,,---He 'woal,d, however state the faa_ for the information of Gentle men.: , these Petitions were in effeet representations from *different towns in' Scotland, 'the parties in which, exercising ,their 'indiVidual, discretion, `did not wish to petition Parliament, but preferred their own statements to the Cdtitmis . sioners of the Treasury' e --He Would tell il . :•eHOild; that irirthogelowns, there . 'were at least fifty . unlicensed stills. It m;-as. alSo a faa, , that in a fortneritistance - when the distillation was . prr'ihibited, spode sS than goo illegal Stills were eized,' by the atliVity of the Excise ()facts. With :res'peel to 'the' lion.' Gentleman's 'idea that the sup. i pressid6 of tk , ise tfirlicensccitills was easy and prac iicable,, • by, aptiiiiiiiing a greaser number of Re.. ;venue. Oili - :,ers, he would tell him, that.' those: who were-acquainted with the 'geography of Scot_ land were aware,. that -if every mat) in the army was converted! into, an. ,Excise i Officer, and .every-vessel in the.navy, into 4 ReyelliV, Cutely, it : would not be.. adequate to , the suppression of tlite illegal. Distil.: i icric. : Tjle•DiStiiiefS A*CUld king their spirits to , the sea shote, - burY the.ir casks in -the stint, until 1 the moment •for disposing of them should arrive:, and laYigh at all the efforts made to suppress them: - With a 'reference to our . proposed -Peace Esta - - blishMenr, and the _current price of Whisky, prevention was still more itnpraaicable; and the Scotch: Soh-its would, notwithstanding every effort; find their way intA the markets of Holland. With respect to what had been said relatiee to the im portant point. of Revenue, -he observed, that -his Hon. Friend had never rested the question on the ground of Revenue; nor had it - been chiefly argued on that ground, in any of the repeated Iscussions % which this subjeet had undergone. 'I here' no necessity for urging it ,on that point. Were the .subsistence of the People in rpiesion, the point' might be conceded; and a thous - and (other .ways're. sorted to, to make up the defalcation; in point of Revenue ; at the same time, he begged tit ohservc, thatan Honourable Bank DirettOr had consider'ably . under-rated the amount of Revenuz in questior . . The amount for this Couretry o • -(vas, at least, Soo t oool.to which was to he added, for Scotlant'; 260,0001.-. He. then proceeded to notice, rather • a jocular _Way, what he conceived to be rathr accountable inconsistencies on the part of wine of the supporters of the Motion. One seemed to'say . , that the measure in contetnnlation would operate grievodly with respea to the Refuse One point of View-, their arguments went, that if 'the. Distilleries were opened, the breed or groWth -of Pigs would be diminished. In another, that if the • Distilleries were prohibited, there would be Ito Hogs at tall ••• Mr. JON ES ekplained. Mr. LLTS,'!INGTON said, the Hone Gentleman had stated this to be a question between the Wk's India Merchants and the Barley Growers ; he was glad, however-, that the former had a powerful ad vocate on their side, namely, Hutrianitst. They ha , t- CoMe for Ward in a moment, of public distress will the, Article Of Molasses, as an useful ; substitute for the Barley usedin,Distillation, which was then quired for the - purposes of human subshoence. He wished'- to tell: the Honourable Gentle Nicliou.s),that the West-India Interest was de pendent upon the -Agricultural - Interest .of this Count ry,.and he hoped would always remain so. The West-India Planters had not been acquiring those, immense forttines which the Hon. Gentleman woul : have the HooSe believe.. They were subject to enor mous ekpences, and to heavy Taxes; and die raft was,' that their net produce had not riseo in price in pro. portion to•that of Parley ; the latter had been nearly doubled within the last ten years, whilst the former had experienced a very trifling proportional advance.. It had been said by an Han. Gentleman (Mr. N. VANS TTAR 3) . that the. duty upon Sugar was drawn • back upon exportation,. and that therefore the only benefit to the Revenue arose fr 'rri home consume tion ; but might sot Sugar be made to contribute to the .Revenue as well in the distillation of Spirits . as ,in the distillation of Tea ? The Honourable Gentleman had Said, Molasses might 'be had for money, but surely the advantages resulting to this. Country from her West India Colonies was to be 'takeri into the account when it was con sidered that those Colonies were entirely supplied by the produce of this kingdom. He thought there . -was something more _in - this than a mere dry - clues- . tion Of ReVenue. With respea to the question be fore the House, he thought that the House by open ing the Distilleries, Would run therisk of renew ing those calamities which the Country had before eizperienced. If the House had again to relieve the distresses of the Poor,. it would tend still farther to humiliate that 'class, and break down the spirit of Englishmen. He wished to avoid a. recurrence. of this calamity, and therefore he thought the leries should - nor be' opened., He thought they should not be opened until after' the next harvest, when it would be . seen :yheiher a surpitis' remained in hand; andif;that was the oAse, he should theta not have the . least objedion to tooseu to the; re.' opening of the Distilleries. - Loid GLENl3l4lE,heartily concurred in what 'had fallenfroth an Hon. Gentleman from the same part of. the 'Couotry, he said, with himself, re-, speaing the impraeticability of suppressing, the 0- legal Distilleries in Scotland. Addeno the reasons', ;stated by . hiS . ifon: Friend, would SUggest the pe 'culiar situation of that part of the Country, the:inae_ cessible cliffs,and mountains with which it abounds, e. and retreats.. where no ,Revenue Officer could pene trale. In flia, it would require the constant exer_ .. or . a whole ,regiment of men to cheek. rite prar_ rice with, ank e degree . of effeCt, His LOrdship, here entered into; some • counter calculations , eLgainsi. those 'urged - -by Gentlemen on the other. side Of the HOuse, and particularly dwelt on what , had been .said ; that 360,000 quarters of' Wheat were taken from the consumption of 360,000 whiCh he observed was a fallacious; state merit, as it Th,oUld have been\ said, taleen from the whole mass of the population, to wit, 14. millions 'fromWhieb, 'if the calculations •were Correa, that Zo _Ounces per _day was sufficient . f6r the aver.e;e . 'subsistenCe- of each' individual, the measure in cen. templation Woad riot in:erred substraCt more than half an ounce from each. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sgici a few words in explanation of pa - rt of his cal-- culations,:which he conceived had been rather inis •understood, . Mr. LUSHINGTON ex ;net?, teat 'in the, points alluded 'to he had `stated his .Opini;)n, Coat Ciey were fairly 'and .properly argued by the.CHAN. pc t XO2 Of,the Excx,EQuziz. , , Mr. VANSITTART also .spoke shortly in e)4 'planation of what had been aaid relative to the West-. 'lndia Commerce.; he likewirs',e,noticed t h e p et i t i r ; ns ,whicli.were.a4dressed to the,L , rds.of the Treasury, `whim . ;;s said were clearly .0f:: that. nature whichi could not,.withoutsreat itrczulatity, be, laid betlnet Parliament. ,•. The question being no,y, pretty liwdly called fur,' -a division took place, when there appeared....' , In Etrour of the.otion . •! • 2e, -i• .82 Majority • - 62 The House then disposed of the remaining tiers of `the )ay, and at halt past nine o'clock, tidjournea till to-morrow. .