The Sun. — London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

1 11.4 (THIS DAY.) BETTING AT MANCHESTER. 4 to 1 agst Red Lion (in immense force). 6 to 1 agst Je Juif. 7 to 1 agst Placid. 0 4 flotif O r. 40 > Os ) 41 , die NEWMARKET RACES. ( BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) SWEEPST AKES. 50 Sovs. Three Miles. B.C. Frantic ... . 11ea... ....................................................... RA.NDICAP SWEEPSTAKES. T.Y.C. Brawn ........................ IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LOR D CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at five o'clock. COURTS. On th e motion of LCOUNTYord BROUGHAM, certain returns :were ordered connected with the expenses of proceedings In County Courts. TNSORTATIO , Earl GREY then rose P to move, that N. an humble ad urese maj be presented to h er M a j esty, praying that her e s -3' will be graciously pl ease d t o g i ve di rect i ons t h at !nitee arrangements with respec t to the punishment of cri ne's sentenced to transportation, which were in force in the year 1852, may not be changed in such a manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders from this country until a full account of any contemplated al heterafotrieonpiarniitahme 13]• Portunit ove arrangements shall have been laid t" and the Parliament have had an op tendd to y of considerin g th e measures i t may b e in tend ado tion, pt previ ous l y to their being carried i nto in an execu He said h e di d not bring forward the motion tion y spirit of h os tili ty to the Government. The ques of secondary punishment never had, and he trusted never would be considered with any reference to party t i lics. It was not his object by this motion to enable oft!. lordships to pronounce a judgment on the question i t ar; usportation, or to call upon them to say that th at (4114 or should not be continued, but to ask on a n address be presented to her Majesty, re riVadesntinl her to. command that no vital change should be for t w that system of punishment which . had existed th ° centuries in this country until their lordships and itethyoeasunsiroesi Parliament had been made acquainted o w i p t p e o ° r t t h hn e en r proposed to be adopted, and had an noble earl pronouncing an opinion upon them. The eedi u entered into a history of the policy of pre g 40vernments on the subject of transportation, a4(l exPres • Pre s , sing his surprise at the . course . taken by the spirit n n t i G o.:Ternment, said it was inconsistent with the . th e ‘ne law that while transportation remained . on . i statute -book as the principal punishment, it was in °int co f act in . ear),, from and point of law to be repealed. " Hear, ti r° ll l Lord Campbell.) He begged to call atten vrichtnii what had taken place within a few years, and ha e thought had a material bearing on the subject, a " . " blade it more disrespectful to Parliament to take the course which Wi se the Government had adopted than it other ado Might have been. Some years ago a measure was Isi„,,t te c . S oy the Government by which transportation to order 'N)uth Wales was at once put an end to by an nob 0 e i r in council. He knew the difficulty to which the Via)j ie. earl opposite was exposed by that measure.. (Hear, It was intended that the number of convicts not , d r nePorted should be continually increased ; but an ad- he r as moved in the House of Commons praying that trans a i 4 tY would not allow the number of convicts not d -81) °rted to be so increased, and that was came a gainst of i ., the Government of Lord Melbourne. The house t t o `:.?ronions, therefor; declared that it was inexpedient bev,tseontinue sending convicts abroad ; and they had tae ; th knee expressed any other opinion, although during had Government of Lord John Russell various attempts Yon bee , n ° ,. lll ,ado to obtain a contrary opinion from the . le 8- ''' Cade on the subject. No decision revers f e,: ff that of 1840 was ever adopted by the House o lon nllll°l2B . Therefore, so far as the other . hou o s; was ho_e_craed, it remained on record as the op t o U t 6e, that the ultimate removal of convic i ts mn s n entenced die raosportation from this country ought not t to be this )10ecti:ntinued. How was it with regard grey. : ~,1 1 , I n the year 1846 it became necessary e t ts hat fo a r arr,iTange should be made in the arrangements 4 4 , 1 : ng Into effect the sentence of transpo .3toNvilliilirricleaalfleeteae:(loEaersen:srineWGilhr of which were the Government .dd d f e o c r i e the uponurpcoesre wweaarea proposed rnember so on Prnv ing the mode of effecting this punishment. P As Cohtajuip Measures had been decided upon, papers kaj est .,,,,'g ,a full explanation of the views of her for its 8 t° , e n Government were laid before Parliament, did notersid, eration. Now, although these measures moval ef°ll)l3' any discontinuance of the ultimate re it was ennliets from this country—on the contrary, , no ten v e w el a t t n o e t a r Z t p i a o i rta part of the plan that convicts sen d; tion should, as heretofore, be re ntoobie .oafndPaire" ri o n no si e de r: l l kn eea - i a ‘ 4 rra before their discharge—yet very was excited in this and the other la'arninedentfriwenhden they were announced. A voZniittee (Lord Brougham) moved a ih of their lordshi s's house, and the then Go leveis-.ent assented to its a P ointment. That committee 1 .. _t, ..,,aka eted the subject, examined all the judges of Eng 1e i i ,T, c ePt one then recently appointed, and almost all . "-Air t les of Scotland and Ireland. [Lord Brougham 4ka p . ; 'ne criminal law judges.] They examined the 4 18 : ra es and governors of prisons—all the e w r o so r n ing of th I e greatest practical experience of . k whom they had exa 4ted :??' After that examination the committee reported. minited "that nearly all those , h that it had terro o r s s . Nil ( ' 2 4 agreed that the n p o u d n , i a sh o m d ent of transportation hie no t safely be . aband the Se a a no other mshm m o t —d o e r a t t ed h o f n u l r y th e o x r c , e ,, pt T ed ha excepted—pos ed That eommittee rep th e n ee, both from France and elsewhere abroad, of 4 41 .1441 effects produced . by t t r h m e s lib o e f rationof 1. - at th e end of theirimprisonment,eri m i - wohi, %r seem strongly to show e the necessity for con- W e nig the present mode of transportation." . They .- ll t on to state, as the result of all their inquiries, might say here that the to -a nd h e (Earl Grey) m ep t i c il l?litt ee was v a e t ry th n e u numerously attended—" that their punishment of transportation 114 ,,,° 1 4 e ci ll be w r as et ' ain tb ed for serious offences; that such punish ,!! should be carried into effect in some instances im aleniately, in others, at later pethriodisseo;ntnhtaryt orth ges of punishment, whether in einafirtpehset. Neales, should be of a reformatory as well as of . l a s 84... character ; and that . the later stages . should, in all li..nne.es, be carried into effect in the colonies, the con at ~being for that purpose retained . in the qualified re livaint to which, under the then existent system of trans- Pa e ,..3 rt a ti °n, men ' holdir* g tickets of leave or conditional ia o ,.." .w ris were subject." Such was the opinion of the 14.4b1:111_4e; No vote was come to upon the subject in . that her Majesty's and for this reason, that it was understood ti lt , 'er Majesty's Government should carry into effect act : i ews of th at comm i ttee. Th e Government d was de .' :at the same ti me , much valuable information Z°Clive(' from the colony, and upon that, and th s e id fa er c a ts . i : tc( ' by the committee, after very careful con N., ° " , a scheme for the future management of convicts era. tok,i.ihatured. A. full account of that scheme was as *4 . l ; et i in various dispatches, which, almost as soon of 1 , r t nn, were laid upon the tables of both houses Ite a c ha men ~, t. It was only two years ago, in moving the Gre y) reading of the Convicts' Prisons Bill, he (Earl c iPle . "„, na d occasion to explain to their lordships the prin lveui, nd objects of the measures then decided upon. He wh at o, herefore, not weary the house by going over c olit e ,h had so lately fully entered upon, but would Pla ti '''••nitaself with reminding their lordships that this tha t PS) with one modification, precisely the same as of the etermined upon in the year 1846. The principle Poi k i Plan was that the more severe portion of t this Dortatiteent consequent upon the !sentence of . ra t n he cl 'iitr °l3 a hmild be inflicted upon criminals . in t ki td Y that they should be subjected to different eOl4 ofL s hat under the best schemes that toi le ti 'le devised, and that, after having under t° th,,, rnili shinent of this kind, they should be removed snbjer,Nonies being still placed in a state of modified the y '7 l ° l l for some time. It was at first intended that h ass tei:t°llld have conditional pardons, the effect of whic c xce t tithes would be free upon arriving at the . colony, i c or.o l P t , y I they Were restrained from . returning to this t o s ent sent ' wan afterwards determined that they should they out with tickets of leave only, by which means .uli at Were still kept under a certain degree of control. to keefialre h l say h d . e (Earl Grey) would take upon himself l ad au a elnee been in very successful operation. It ' zizitniihenawnevaridederibnogthtzani. deterringand as a reformatory ' ga t, blent • Now, he old submit to their lordships , 4 ih 43 °4 Punishment was adopted, e u o n n d s e i r de w rin li g ich tha th t a it t a oaed - enecessful opera . tion, they ou . ght not to have NI °net t f r -Of th lightly and without a substitute, an essential . °l 4 thi s 6 Ineasure. The ultimate removal of convicts k 4B 4 4- ` ecnill trY Was an essential part of the plan, both . ent.e'eurrienag2ind still more as a reformatory . punish ii,iverpt Of the t la hat an involuntary exile was a deter a'a C ucf °re th P n upon the authority of the . evidence tl e nter house we committee. He knew he might be been d, trggrely changes' told not long since, that this had wi 4 t l t i a ; but he hy the recent discovery of gold in Aus ui s i cott„,co roUst.confess that he heard that argument ,:n the fact 7 fitonishnient. In the first place, he de b, 'w ay i ,that the recent discoveries of gold had in Li eolq refe7.P. ired . the efficacy of transportation. He i• 41 (L ord t r ? his noble and learned friend behind ,!eent circuit s ani Phell), who had stated that upon iiransportavo he had found the punishment of 1,, ° , (Earl G rey) ae much dreaded as ever. Since 44.4t.'ectiiilleerilsroozil,113:)chealiiddigitoven notice of this motion, it had thateportation him by the chaplain of one of 0 t iere was no part of the sentence of 1,, n ,.._h e found so dreaded as the ultimate exile ; 1141Thiet.44 ;trnecietlijilenavvvelicetg'9lllllprisoned after sentence, al had tta.tekepinat kind, of their sentence corn tile.ltllreeoiert l i onr_sreseintiiepe; i f i within the last few weeks he bad questiot i s o e n nt e n .at And considera telyddinspooonvoryof gold . , e l 1 i a t h 1 :„ . .. 1 ; 4 . 3 a t tin v ~ though i:tor.o v .. . 1.0n0 . 01.8 w g. e a .ers i o t l e r ig c l u. a n g beforese . he o i e il h,o,otoef Under etro thetranstransportationregulations th4 6° to the t i• e c n t n toey years' i a at convict,libery 1 1 l r a g ; v 1 n eex e s e b t epe s ve t 0 10 or 12 years llontttioantiaille, anobtheeeril one re'Yhutconuip conviction, m eet have xemp exemplary from 11 0 Must Ni tre cl go to the gold fields _waited 84 years %aid th • No w . rememberinas and labur of in spent t e in sever e he .g 1 ?uo f m t y ha s t ec 3 lu 4 s y io e n ar o s, f e / I: *' supposed to act ugponwuaanty peuriaenYLeipre ewe of d re ; , , liberate reason ? Did a man pick a pocket because, after due consideration, he had come to the decision that he ought to do so ? Crimes were generally com mitted because those who committed them did not reason, and, not reasoning, did net possess sufficient strength of mind to resist temptation. Were these the men, then, to commit crime for the sake of being trans ported, in order that, at the end of 10, or 12, or 15 years, after undergoing a punishment of awful severity, they might be at liberty to take their chance with other scramblers for gold at the diggings ? The notion was so utterly irrational that he (Earl Grey) was convinced that no noble lord would attempt to assert it. He did not deny that there might be men who had given as a reason for their crimes that they wanted to go to the digging. He knew that in 1830 he had had letters from criminals stating that they had committed crimes for the purpose of being transported. There were not wanting in the records of our criminal courts cases of persons who had incurred the penalty, even of death, from a morbid desire to undergo punishment. But taking mankind as a body, he believed that tran sportation as it had lately been inflicted, contained more that was alarming to 99 men out of 100 than any other punishment. One reason for this was that it contained, he might say, many different elements. But it was not merely the difficulty of obtaining employment, which was obviated by the present system of emigration : a sudden return to unrestrained liberty was also prevented. Experience had shown that a sudden change from strict control to unrestrained freedom was more than a man could bear. It was even so in the colonies, and thus it was that the system of sending out men with conditional pardons was changed. When the convicts had condi tional pardons it was found that they speedily relapsed into former idle and disorderly habits. The system of assignment was then adopted and persevered in until disapproved by the House of Commons. The system of granting tickets of leave was then adopted. Under this system the effect had been very gratifying. The papers upon their lordships' table would show that the convicts had in many instances set examples which might well be followed by free labourers. In the case of a convict who had committed a very serious offence, one who had barely escaped capital punishment, through the Secre tary of State commuting it to transportation for life, it might be quite safe to release him at the end of four or five years, if he were removed to a distant colony, and there placed under restrictions still tolerably severe, though a great improvement on his former condition, and though he must pay a considerable sum of money, and do a con siderable amount of work before he could obtain a con ditional pardon. Such a man, who had committed a crime which was only distinguished by a nice shade from murder, might, under such conditions, be safely re leased, after four or five years, from Portland ; but what would be the effect if, after those four or five years of seclusion, he were allowed to go back to his old com rades, and say : " See what I have done ; I knocked out the brains of the keeper of the prison," or, "I have been a notorious housebreaker for ten years ; and, after four or five years, which I don't much care about (for that was always the language they held), here I am back again. Don't be afraid of the sentence of the law ; that is the worst it can do. Join with me, and we will break open another house." (Hear, hear.) To allow men of this kind to return to their old haunts would destroy all reformatory discipline. No one who knew anything at all of the criminal law would believe that this would be safe. But what was the alternative ? To prolong the period of punishment. (Hear, hear.) But precisely as they prolonged that period, precisely as they made very distant the period when good conduct would procure a release—precisely in the same degree did they diminish the influence of that hope which was now the main in strument of Government in leading convicts to behave well in our prisons at home. If a man was told that, let him behave ever so well, he must continue in that gloomy retreat for ten or twelve years, it was greatly to be feared that the hope of accelerating the period of his discharge would lose its effect, and that he would net think it worth while to exert himself in the hope of. knocking off one or two days at the end of that period, and that he might as well be guilty of some breach of discipline, and enjoy himself as he could while in pri son. To prolong the period of prison discipline would cut off the main source whence its excellence was de rived, and would render the hope now excited in the minds of the convicts comparatively null. He assumed that it would be argued, by those who opposed his motion, not that transportation was otherwise than useful in itself and beneficial, but that it must of necessity be given up—that it was impracticable to remove from this country the hundreds of convicts who were now looking forward to transportation. He denied the validity of that argument. If they were to abandon transportation, because Van Diemen's Land could not be called on longer to receive convicts, and there was no other place to which they could be sent, the Government ought to have taken the course se hich was adopted by their predecessors. As far as his information went, he was not aware of any sufficient reason for abandoning the practice of removing convicts to Van Diemen's Land ; but, for the sake of ar gument, he would concede that it must be abandoned. Granting that this was so, what was the proper course ? He found no fault with the dispatch written by the late Colonial Secretary, who said he thought that transpor tation to Van Diemen's Land ought to stop, but that Government could not fix the precise date of the change. (Hear.) The late Government proposed to submit cer tain changes in the law, which they thought necessary in order to effect this alteration in the practice, and at the same time to make certain arrangements by which they thought these alterations might be accomplished without injury. (Hear.) That was a perfectly legiti mate course, and had it been adhered to by the present Government, it would have been perfectly practicable, by arrangements which might have been made, and changes in the law which might have been proposed— not certainly without considerable expense—to put an end, at no distant period, to transportation to Van Diemen's Land, and at the same time to maintain that punishment to an extent sufficient to answer the most important purposes. (Hear, hear.) Look at the present condition of Van Diemen's Land. The colony was wealthy far beyond any other colony ever founded in the world, he believed, in proportion to its size. It possessed many of the advantages of an old country—neat farm-houses, hawthorn hedges, good grounds, all the means of civilised life, a perfect police, the most perfect safety—greater than we enjoyed in this country—from offences. All this comfort and wealth, all this fortunate and prosperous state of things, had been created exclusively by the enormous expenditure of this country. (Hear.) Was it, then, just or reasonable that, precisely at the moment when Van Diemen's Land could receive convicts with most advantage to itself, as well as to the mother country—when the colonists had derived so much benefit from convict labour and convict expenditure—they should turn round on the mother country and say—" We will not only not tolerate receiv ing convicts, but we will not even give you time in making the change, to consult Parliament or to adopt any other plan to relieve you from the great inconveni ence which the change must occasion ?" But he be lieved that Van Diemen's Land would have been per fectly satisfied with the promise given by the late Go vernment. They might have done all that had been done, and at the same time have avoided the embarrass ment that had ensued ; but was it certain that this was the deliberate and settled opinion of the community, and not merely clamour ? Though a clamour were loud, it did not follow that it was reasonable ; of this there had been instances in the present day. As far as we had the means of judging, there was every indication that this opinion against convicts was not adopted on sound reason and adequate grounds. In the first place; the cry was quite new. It was unheard of when he began to attend to the subject ; and he was one of those who were most anxious to put an end to transportation as it had been here tofore conducted, for the purpose of arriving at the very plan which had been lately in operation ; because, with out giving himself credit for superior discernment, he might state that nearly twenty years ago he had ex pressed an opinion in favour of such a plan. There were colonists and newspapers as rabid then on the other side as they were now. They were as ready then to denounce as enemies of their country any one that should venture to suggest the possibility of their being any abuses in the existing system of transportation. He held in his hand an extract from the report of a committee of the legislative council of New South Wales which sat on the subject in 1846 ; and it seemed to be the theory of that committee that people at home ought to commit crimes in order that there might be plenty of labour in the colonies ; for they came to a resolution to the effect that not fewer than 5,000 male convicts should be annually transported to New South Wales. Nor was the com mittee at all apprehensive that any moral evil of any sort or kind would follow the importation into the colony of so large a number of convicts, because they argued that the free population had obtained so great a head and mastery over the convict population that if the proposal was carried out, the vast absorbing and dis persing powers of the colony would prevent the convicts from ever swamping the free population as they had done ttae ne fitness cVo committee Diemen's tctoeloon agreed rtoo od Land. receive with convictsThusi im i n theythi increasedowk i o n u g l d see withithatt h the increase of its free population. (Hear, hear.) It r w e aserf port p in e l ct B l 4 y 7 t ; ru ho e t th it a w t a t s h r e council ema rkaal d e i d te oh n o o h t c o o r v n e c u o or w in n h t o h m e thoer sai d i rem; who was also chairman d w a a n s this committee was composed, o membersd opponentwas ofM t r r . ansp w or e iaton. Yet Sir other Mr, Wentworth, now the orac l e of the o n d ow ita a le d a e d te iu rm g Charles Wentworth stated that up to the end of the session of 1848, since which time the system cer tainly not become worse, but better, these had professed their unreserved concurren ce in the report of the committee. In that year, too. th e legislative coun cil deliberately came to a resolution, requestin g that conv icts should again be sent to them. B u t more than this. The present chairman of the Anti-Convict League was one Mr. Cooper, and he (the noble earl) fou n d from e the colonial newspapers that this same gentleman was a member of an association which was formed in 1846 by the settlers in Port Philip, for the purpose of raising money to defray the expense of importing " expirees"— that was, not persons who had undergone the improved system of convict discipline, but those who had composed the probation gangs in Van Diemen's Land at a time when their discipline was notoriously bad. (Hear, hear.) Again, be found that at the present time a very large number of the most respectable and intelligent settlers in Van Diemen's Land had signed a petition, praying that the system might be continued. He believed it was not upon the table of the house, but he had seen it in a co lonial newspaper, and he had no doubt as to its authen ticity. At the same time, he was far from denying that there were many persons in the colonies who entertained a very eincere opinion against transportation ; but he thought the circumstances he had mentioned showed that the opinion had not been very deliberately or very soberly formed. On the contrary, he believed that it might be mainly traced to the language which had been held in this country. People here talked about "the disgraceful penal colonies," and that had prevented emigration to Van Diemen's Land until the colonists had begun to feel it. The colonists were very sensitive about what was said and thought of them in the mother country ; and, though there was perhaps a little vanity in this, the feeling was on the whole praiseworthy, and did them credit. He only wished they would estimate a little more correctly what the opinion of this country really was. But this was a tender point with the colonists ; for the more they could induce people to settle amongst them the greater would be the value of their property. They imagined that being a penal colony prevented emi gration to them, but there could not be a more complete mistake. He had already said that the first free settlers were tempted to settle there by the cheap labour which was promised them. It was only three years since the first convicts were sent to Western Australia. Previous to that time the colonists were on the point of abandon ing the settlement ; but now he actually found an article in the Western Australian Magazine congratulating them on the fact that the convicts had led to a great accession to the better classes of society there. (A. laugh.) Did noble lords really believe that if the numerous persons in this country who were desirous of emigrating, and who had a little money to invest, were offered Land in Van Diemen's Land at a moderate price, with a gratui tous passage there, and at the same time a plentiful sup ply of cheap convict labour, as well as a market for their produce at the high prices which they must command since the discovery of gold—did they really believe that persons contemplatinglemigration would not soon find out that Van Diemen's Land was the place to go to in order to get rich—especially if they saw that there was such an admirable police that they might enjoy perfect safety ? (Hear, hear.) They might talk till they were tired about the moral disadvantages of a convict popu lation, but with such prospects they would never pre vent persons from going there. Certainly, if he (the noble earl) were contemplating emigration, Van Die men's Land would be the colony he should hoose. But if transportation ceased, any man that expected to make his livelihood other than by the labour of his own hands, would be insane to go there ; because it was ob vious that no produce he could raise by the means of labourers, to whom he must pay such wages as would deter them from going to the diggings, would have any chance of competing in the market with that brought from America or even England. (Hear, hear.) How ever, as the legislative council had spoken, he must assume that it expressed the opinions of the community ; and, right or wrong, that opinion was that transportation should cease. But when he was told that the inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land and Western Australia would rebel, and that the example of the American colonies would be followed, he could hardly forbear from smiling at the perfectly ludicrous contrast between the two cases. What similarity was there between the strong feeling which had led to the ejection of tea into Boston harbour, and the feeling which did not prevent the scenes which took place at the arrival of the convict ships ? Why, in a recent paper there was a most graphic account of the tumult which such an event occasioned. Even the as sistance of the military had to be invoked to restrain the crowds of rich and poor who assembled, not to drive away the convicts from their shores, but to secure their services. (Hear, hear.) What a contrast between the persons who had indulged in this foolish talk in the co lonies, and the great men of the American revolution — men not less distinguished for their moderation than their firmness—men whose moderation was such that, had there been the smallest infusion of political wisdom in the councils of this country, the calamitous struggle and the secession of those colonies would never have taken place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the amendment which he understood the noble earl (Lord Chichester) intended to propose, he trusted that it would not be pressed. If he wished to take the sense of the house upon it he hoped the noble earl would bring it on as a substantive motion, because it was entirely beside the question he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the house. The language of that amendment was utterly incomprehensible. It talked about sending convicts to colonies which were " incapable" of receiving them. Surely there must be a mistake, for it was not common sense. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl wished the govern ment to devise a system of secondary punishments which should be as much dreaded and as reformatory as trans portation. Why that was a problem which every civil ised nation had been attempting to solve for the last cen tury. Yet the noble earl demanded an immediate solu tion. Was that rational ? (Hear, hear.) Again, the noble earl distinctly recommended additional means of secondary punishment in this country, and admitted that new buildings would be necessary. Was it then reason able to put an end to transportation before these further arrangements had been provided ? Surely this alone was sufficient to prove his (Earl Grey's) case. If, how ever, the 'noble earl did press his amendment, he (Lord Grey) trusted the house would deal with it as merely an indirect way of evading a question which the Govern ment did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three months after the ships had been chartered which should have taken convicts out, they should be discussing what to do with them ? Surely the course the Government had taken was an erroneous one ; but it was still not too late for Parliament to interfere, and he asked them, therefore, to agree to the resolution of the terms of which he had given notice, viz. :—" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give directions that the arrangements with respect to criminals sentenced to transportation, which were in force in the year 1852, may not be changed in such a manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders from this country until a full account of any contem plated alteration in the above arrangements shall have been laid before Parliament, and till Parliament shall have had an opportunity of considering the measures it may be intended to adopt previously to their being car ried into execution." The Earl of ABERDEEN said it would perhaps be convenient for him to state thus early in the debate the views of her Majesty's Government upon the subject ; and he did so the more readily, because notwithstanding the appeal of the noble earl, he could not help enter taining some hope that he (Lord Grey) would not him self be disposed to press his motion on the house. In the first place this motion was one of a very unusual character. It was an intervention of a description rarely exercised towards the legitimate use of the pre rogative of the crown, and of the executive government. (Hear.) The noble earl thought the Government had done something which required the sanction of Parlia ment to authorise. They had done no such thing. (Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed to take any step requiring the sanction of Parliament they should most readily have requested the house to authorise or refuse their assent to such a proceeding. But they bad done nothing of the kind. All they had done was that which, right or wrong, wise or unwise, it was perfectly com petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the executive Government. (Hear, bear.) He agreed with the noble earl that this subject had always been treated as not belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.) The subject was one which interested our social con dition so nearly, and was so important to the welfare and happiness of such vast numbers of our fellow-citi zens, that it had been very properly put aside from all considerations of party ; and he (Lord Aberdeen) had certainly no reason to imagine that the noble earl at all wished to give it that character. (Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his colleagues had made great improvement in the treatment of convicts and in their discipline both at home and abroad. At the same time he must be permitted to ob serve that the difficulties under wjiich they were labour ing at that moment had been mainly created, however unintentionally, by the noble earl himself. The practi cal question was, after all, notwithstanding all that the noble earl had said, could transportation be continued ? and he would show that the noble earl had made that impossible. And for this reason—when, in 1846, Mr. Gladstone was Secretary for the Colonies, he found the system introduced by the noble earl opposite had led however well devised (for he was not inclined to find fault with that system) had led to such abuses, and that the country had arrived at such a state of horror and abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone) found himself un der the necessity of suspending all transportation for 10 years. Shortly after that declaration a change of Go vernment took place, and the noble earl succeeded him. The noble earl, on the sth February, 1847, wrote to Sir W. Denison, in Van Diemen's Land, to this effect : " I have to inform you that it is not the intention of her Majesty's Government that transportation to Van Die men's Land shall be resumed at the expiration of two years, for which it has been already decided that it shall be discontinued." Earl GREY —Read the former part. The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit that the noble earl intended something different from what he said. (Earl Grey, loudly, hear, hear.) Well, if the noble earl would hear, he would state what he was about to say. Whatever interpretation the noble earl might put upon this letter now, Sir W. Denison under stood it in its plain meaning, and he announced it to his legislative council, as an intimation that no more con victs were to be sent to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear, hear.) It had thus become a question of good faith, be cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning to the declaration of their own governor, founded upon the dispatch of the noble earl. (Hear, hear.) Now, he (Lord Aberdeen) knew very well that what the noble earl meant was that transportation should not be re sumed in the same manner as bad been the practice before. But neither the governor to whom he wrote, nor the colonists to whom Sir W. Denison explained it, understood it so. 'They undoubtedly received a fixed impression that the late Government intended to abo lish transportation to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear.) Well, but with that conviction on their part, it would be difficult to disabuse them of their belief, which had been confirmed to them over and over again by the de clarations, the emphatic declarations, of their legislative council. (Hear.) The noble, in one instance, had writ ten that the Government of this country had no right to send convicts to any colony against the consent of the inhabitants. Earl GREY —Not being originally a convict colony. The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well ; but surely t t u h r e e a no e b f t e h e e a s e r ce o l u e g e h i e t t . o pa y e e s i o t m e e n r y e s a p g e a c i t n e t t o t t h h e e e Ch g i u s r leah of England that the noble earl supported the declara tions of the Legislative Assemblies—was it only the Canadas that were to be supported in the wishes that they expressed, and was a colony to protest against a set of convicts being forced upon them, and were they not to be listened to or receive any attention from their lordships ? The noble earl ought to be consistent, and to give due weight to the voice of those assemblies which he had helped to constitute in these colonies. The noble earl had throughout treated the whole of this subject as if Government had taken a decision to abolish transportation. Now, they had not only done no such thing, but they were anxious to preserve transportation. Undoubtedly the field in which it could be exercised was diminished ; and,' as he had already said, whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had been mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear, hear.) But there were settlements that still remained, and he thought that by good management at home the number of convicts transported might be so diminished as possibly to find the means of accommodation in those THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY n. 185 S. restricted territories to which he had alluded. 'Western Australia was a colony to which they might continue to be sent ; but he quite agreed with the noble earl that the foundation •f other penal settlements would not answer the purpose for which transportation was now intended and ought to be supported. A noble and learned lord said the other night they might be sent to Falkland and Greenland. He did not know what sort of discipline they could be subject to there. That showed how little people really felt what was the inten tion of transportation, because it was not such a system as could be found in the Falkland Islands that they wanted to establish. That might be a very good prison, but what was required was the absorption of the con vict into the population of the country to which he was sent. However, he was not one of those who thought it impossible that some use might be made of Falkland Island for this purpose. At all events, it was a subject that deserved inquiry. It was their opinion that tran sportation, so far as it could possibly be exercised, was a most valuable means of secondary punishment, but whether it were valuable or not, and however anxious they might be to exercise it, and to carry it into effect, as extensively as the means they possessed would allow, still he did think the time had come when it would be absolutely necessary to make large provision in this country for the treatment of our criminals, whether sentenced to transportation or not. For it was certain that however much they might wish to employ transpor tation, the exercise of it must necessarily diminish ; and therefore they must endeavour to find some other mode of treating a vast proportion of those persons who were sentenced to be thus punished. He thought they had 'had great success in this attempt ; that the institutions that had been established, the reformatory systems that had been introduced, joined with the labour on public works, had been attended with the very best effects, and were said to have been greatly successful. He believed it was probable that some change would have to be made in the very indiscriminate mode of sentencing to transpor tation which had taken place for many years. Many hundreds had been sentenced to transportation for seven years, and what did that mean ? It meant two or three years in the hulks, and then, having undergone no discipline but the whip, to be turned out on the country. That had gone on year after year without the great alarm which some noble lords professed now at the pos sibility of some criminals being discharged into the coun try after a system of discipline from which there was every reason to hope a moral reformation had taken place. But the great majority of those who were sen tenced to seven years' transportion were not persons who were guilty of any great amount of moral turpitude. No doubt there were varieties, and no doubt that was one of the causes of the inequalities of transportation. Upon the sensitive temperament of many persons, it was worse than death • to the careless and reckless it was no punishment at all. (Hear.) Many of their lord ships would recollect the case of a member of the family of a noble lord, a member of that house, who was so determined to go to Botany that he declared if his family did not send him there he would take good care he was sent there. There was no doubt that transportation fell most unequally on the persons who were sentenced to it. The noble earl, though he spoke of the necessity of continuing transportation to Van Diemen's Land, had very much confined his observations to the treat ment at home, and he had described, and justly, the effect produced by the discipline in those establishments to which he had referred. Nothing could be more true and just, and the necessity of extending that system became more apparent every day. And without giving up transportation ? Quite the reverse ; retaining it espe cially for those cases which were of a serious descrip tion. He thought that for minor offences the system of reformatory imprisonment and labour qn public works might be established for a great portion of those persons who were now sentenced to transportation. The noble earl had talked to alarm them by referring to the ex ample of France ; he said, indeed, that the persons dis charged there were the terror of the country. No doubt they were, but why ? Because they had not undergone that discipline and reformation which they were endeav ouring to give to criminals in this country. It was too soon yet to speak with certainty on the subject, but he thought that the experience of the few years which had passed since the institution of the establishments at Portland and Dartmoor augured favourably for their success. The noble lord had made light of the notion that transportation was no longer the same terror that it was formerly, and he said it was desirable that this feeling should operate in the I minds of persons so sentenced. He (Lord Aberdeen) thought that these reckless minds were not incapable of being moved by vague notions of this descrip tion ; but whether that was so or not, one thing was certain, that in consequence of the extension of vo luntary emigration, the prospect of crossing the sea had no longer any terror in it. He thought it would be a great misfortune if criminals convicted of the most seri ous offences where not sent out of the country. Where the sentence was for a longer period, say 15 or 20 years, then, of course, it would be desirable to carry the sen tences into effect. The noble earl bad said they would turn out from these establishments the worst persons in the country. Why, they should not only turn out the worst, but they should turn out the best, and if this system were good for anything, it was precisely that discrimination might be exercised, and that they should let out those persons who had shown, by their conduct, that they were deserving. Lord CAMPBELL.—Then you would have perpetual imprisonment in England ? The Earl of ABERDEEN said no, in serious cases he thought transportation ought to be observed, but in tri fling cases it was a farce to sentence them to transporta tion. A large portion of these persons would be re formed • the experience th e y h a d h a d o f th e establish ment, although but short fully justified that expectation. They had taken this step whieh the noble earl said was so rash, they had made provision for the number likely to be sentenced this year, and there would be no chance of any inconvenience arising from the persons whose sentences would expire in the•course of the ensuing year. He hoped that a well devised plan would be completed in all its details, because the noble earl must not suppose that this had been decided, that the abolition of transpor tation had been decided upon without any due substitu tion. Far from it He had already stated what was the substitute, as to a large portion of these persons, and accommodation had been provided for any probable number that might be expected this year ' • but the pre cise amount of g ra d a ti on o f punishment, the duration and the treatment which should be substituted for that portion of the punishment which consisted of sending them abroad with tickets of leave—these had not been determined on ; they were in consideration, but they were only details, and w ith th e ass i stance and the experi ence of the very able and efficient persons who had the management of these establishments, he did not think but that they would have such a system as would prove satisfactory. He did not think it necessary to say,more, except to protest against the notion which the noble earl throughout his speech had endeavoured to convey, that they had come to a decision to abolish transportation be cause they found it impossible to send convicts to Van Diemen's Land, for that was the whole amount of his charge. The Earl of CHICESTER then rose to move the amendment of which he had given notice, "That whilst in the opinion of this house it is expedient to retain the punishment of transportation for some of the graver of fences against the law, it has become necessary to re strict such transportation to a few only of the colonies, and to places which, from their liinited extent or popu lation, are at present incapable, without prejudice to their own social condition, of affording employment to any considerable number of discharged convicts. That it has therefore become the duty of Parliament to adopt immediate measures for providing increased means of secondary punishment in this country. That such se condary punishment ought to be, both in kind and dura tion, sufficiently penal to exercise as deterring an in fluence as the punishment of transportation, and at the same time of so reformatory a character as to afford a reasonable hope that the convicts who undergo it will, on their discharge, become useful members of society, and qualified to obtain employment either in this country or in the colonies." He said it was with considerable pain he was obliged to oppose the noble earl who had moved the address, as he had always regarded with great admiration the manner in which the noble earl had dis charged the office of chief secretary for the colonies, and because he must admit that, in conjunction with his right hon. friend Sir George Grey, more was done during his administration for the improvement of secondary punishments in this country than had been done by any previous administration. He objected to the motion, because it implied a continuance of transportation to a greater extent than ho believed 'to be desirable, or, in the present circumstances of the colony, to be either politic or just. He concurred in much that was said by the noble earl, and ho also agreed with the noble earl who had just sat down, that, for the thegra vneercoeffsseintyceos,f i t a ra w ns b p a o t rt b a a ti d on b o ee u n gh e t ai t d o w b i e tb c r o e n g t a h m iued to . He agreed also the interference of Parliament in this question - he be lieved it to be quite necessary that there should ' be some alteration in 'the law, because transportation could not be carried out to the extent that the law allowed, and that was another reason why he could not concur in the motion of his noble friend. He believed that a variety of successful experiments proved that they bad discovered a satisfactory system of secondary punishments equally applicable to convicts who were to be sent to the colo nies,orwho great were blame to be attacheddischarged inparthliiasmceonut and ntrl. He thought who t t re m b e y l y his fi t b loa G i rtee no transportationdv fi e offi r r n ce m u e l e n o. r for lf the secondary h not ew nahavingpunishment, ma s(w d o e bree mr e ad becoming ny everybody m o a r t e ek a pro was was so afraid o f e ts ext t a h r g m m i s e c n h t i s e v w o e u r se so ef f f e a c r t s r e o h f f o lae r m l t we h a e a e r d y s l e as c o t n e v be what bad the theseobl persons being discharged at home, to be useful m e mb ers o f society in the coelffoneeiets,efif they were to be so afraid of the m ischievous h we re discharged every day after from two years' down to three months' imprisonment ? earl to say to that much larger number of con n victs e , They constituted the great mass of our criminal popu lation, and were continually being thrown on society. generally . the grounds on he had proposed, an d no t be unwise for them to adopt some such resolutions as w Th b e ieb no b b e le tb e e a u r g l bttheitn would d ed n oble earl had ent ere d into a detail of the co urse Parliament had pursued for s some years with regard concluded Tbe Earl b by fp moving E RB h y i s t oec ondary punishment, and no one was better qualified to speak on the subject of said amendment. , part He must say, that in the greater the earl. h of his speech e had given the go - by to the question, as transportation and secondary punishment than the noble hi s amendment did to the resolution of the noble earl on the cross bench es. resolution He did not see why any one sup portingution might not also vote for the amen dment ; but he was anxious to state why he should s upport the resolution, without giving any opinion for the amendment. The noble earl at the head of the Government had stated that up to of transportation had the present moment this question or against the merits of the always been considered apart from party or political views. He thought the noble earl could hardly have meant to except the present discussion, for when he looked to the state of the house lie would not see that there was any combination between the noble earl (Grey) and his (the opposition) side of the house. Much as he respected the great ability of the noble earl on the cross benches, they had had differences of opinion on many subjects, and their present views were so much at variance that he did not think his agreeing with the noble earl upon the present question would be any evi dence of party feeling or agreement, excepting that the noble earl had intimated that the course which was about to have been adopted by the Government with which he (Earl Derby) was connected was a more pru dent one than that which had been taken by the present, Government. The noble earl at the head of the Govern ment had stated that it was by no means their intention to discontinue the present system of transportation, and that had relieved his mind, because certainly the lan guage of the noble duke at the head of the colonial de ; p ii a ea rt r i?; en had had aso The henoble dukem differentsomewhat tnot tendency. ( only nlywas H ear, transpor tation to Van Diemen's Land to be put a stop to, but that it was impossible not to see that the portion of our colonies that would consent to receive convicts was few in number and limited in extent, and that there was only one colony in Western Australia which was willing to take convicts, and that would only be available for a short time. The impression produced on his mind was that the Government had come to the conclusion that transportation must soon cease to become a portion of our criminal system. (Hear, hear.) He was therefore glad to hear that the Government were not about to dis continue transportation : and he had also heard with satisfaction that whilst they would limit it within nar rower bounds, the noble earl was of opinion that changes in the law were called for by which transportation should be confined, formally as well as really, to a more limited number of offences ; and that when persons were sen tenced to transportation it should be carried out. It was desirable that criminals should be well aware of the penalty awaiting their offences, and that the sentence to be pronounced should not be a mere brutent fulmen. He believed that there were many offences to which the punishment of transportation was now applied for which it would not be convenient to continue it. The noble earl who had just sat down went farther in disparaging the advantages derived from the system of transportation in comparison with other modes of secondary punish ment, for he seemed to think that transportation was for those who were utterly irreclamable, and that the reformatory influence was only to be applied through a different system. He, however, was of opinion that there was more chance of amendment from transporta tion than from a reformatory system in this country, followed up, as it must be, by a recurrence to former habits and associates. And so far from wishing to re strict transportation solely to those with regard to whom but little hope was to be entertained, still less with re gard to the most aggravated cases, he thought there was a class of persons who, after a reformatory system in this country, might obtain signal benefit from transpor tation to the colonies, and who, might be an advantage to the community to whom they were sent. (Hear, hear.) Transportation, therefore, he thought, might be available as a valuable sequence to a reformatory pro cess. He thought, however, that the time had arrived when we must look to the abolition of transportation to Van Diemen's Land. The feeling which existed in that colony against receiving convicts might be partly produced by the encouragement given in this country to the notion that a colony which received convicts was 1, 1 6, degraded colony. He thought that to be a mistake—(hear)—but the idea was so strongly impressed' on the people of Vau Diemen's Land, that he did not say we had not the right or the power to send convicts there, but he thought it would not be good policy to con tinue to do so. (Hear.) They had given Van Diemen's Land an independent government of its own, and from that time they must take the legislative body to be the representatives of the people, and the organ for expound ing the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear.) And where there was a strong feeling pervading the whole of a colony, especially on such a subject as the ad mission of convicts, it was unwise to run the risk of re , peating in Van Diemen's Land scenes such as they had witnessed in other colonies. (Hear.) The field for trans portation would consequently be limited to an extent which would be found inconvenient, and it would mate rially diminish a large portion of the reformatory princi ple. Thinking it necessary to make an immediate pre paration for meeting that emergency, he did not the less agree with the motion in regretting the precipitate man ner in which the Government had given effect to an in tention, which he thought might safely have been carried out more gradually, and which he and his late colleagues fully entertained, but the execution of which they were willing to postpone until they made the necessary ar rangements. He did not think that the Government had taken any step which did not belong to Ministers of the Crown ; but they had done that which rendered an im mediate alteration of the system inevitable, without giving Parliament an opportunity of discussing the sub ject, or having before them the full details of the plan by which they were going to supersede the system at present in operation. The late Government would not have advised her Majesty to discontinue the present sys tem without coming to a satisfactory solution of the plan to be substituted. They were anxious to intimate to the inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land their wish to comply with their very natural desire, but they were desirous, at the same time, of proceeding cautiouslybefore they made any change. Having alluded to the changes which had been made, he must express his regret that the Govern ment had now made another sudden change, leading the public mind, perhaps, to b e li eve th a t th ere wou ld be a greater change than was contemplated. He would not dwell on the individual injustice that would be done to convicts, for he was sure that the Government would do all they could to limit and prevent it. But when the present system was introduced he pointed out to the noble earl that as to deportation lie was only postponing the evil day, and that the pressure would come as soon as the convicts were entitled to be sent out of the country. From an expression which had dropped from the noble earl at the head of the Government, lie did not think there was much difference between his views and those of the late Government as to limiting the amount of transportation and the offences for which it should be inflicted. He thought it desirable that there should be some locality, not far from this country, in which there should be a prison for persons of whom there was no hope of amend ment, and who should not, therefore, contaminate a colony. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean that they should always be kept within the walls of a prison, but within a narrow space, subject to surveillance, even for life. That might be a substitute for transportation, and he thought he inferred from what had fallen from the noble earl that he did not differ widely from thoso views. (Hear, hear, from the Earl of Aberdeen.) In conclu sion, he must say that he saw with regret that the Go vernment had taken a course likely to lead to embarrass ment, having the appearance of yielding to popular feel ing in Van Diemen's Land against transportation there, and that they had adopted the discontinuance of the present system before they had matured the plan they had intended to propose as to secondary punishment. He complained, moreover, of their taking a final and ultimate step without first consulting Parliament on the subject. Entertaining those views he should support the resolution of the noble earl on the cross benches. (Hear.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting with the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward this motion, principally because of the approbation which he had expressed in reference to the course which the late Government intended to pursue. At the same time, the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) abstained from making any statement as to what those intentions were. He (the Duke of Newcastle) could assure the noble earl that however the noble lord who made the motion might approve of that course, he was only able to judge of it from what was contained in the speech from the throne, and in a dispatch of the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) who preceded him in office. The noble earl (Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the Government with having violated the spirit if not the letter of vari ous act of Parliament. Now he (the Duke of Newcastle) utterly denied that the Government had done this. It had acted upon the power which the Crown had invari ably exercised, upon the advice of ministers, to decide to which colonies transportation should proceed, and where and in what degree it should be stopped. There was no act of Parliament stating to what colonies trans portation should take place. The matter had always been regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl must know that on more than one occasion an order in council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed again merely upon the advice of Ministers. Again, what had been the practice of late years with regard to transportation ? Latterly, until within a short time, prisoners transported for seven years had never been transported at all, but merely sent to the hulks. More than that, Ministers had not only taken upon them selves never to carry the sentence of transportation into effect, but, even since the late alterations, prisoners sen tenced to seven years' transportation were detained for two years and a half in solitary confinement and upon public works before being sent out of the country. What was the effect of these alterations by the Govern ment of which the noble earl was a member ? Under it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl Grey) looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for under these regulations a man was transported and left without the means of returning. The early part of the speech of the noble earl (Earl Grey) was devoted to the praise of transportation in the abstract, but at the close of his observations he adverted to a speech made by him upon a former occasion, and expressed an opinion, which it was only due to the colonists of Van Diemen's Land that house. thath he (the The noble Dukeof ea ! l Newcastle) went so fartle) shouldas to s advert peak to in of this anti convict movement as a sham. He (the Duke of Newcastle) held in his hand a list of petitions from Van Diemen's Land, which either had been, or were about to be presented to the other house, praying that the system of transportation might be altered. The petitions were not got up by professed agitators, but were the sincere views and opinions of the people. There were 42 of them, and among them 19 were from congre gations of the Established Church, 8 from Presbyterian congregations, 7 from the Baptists, 1 from the free church, 1 from the Dissenters, 1 from the Roman Catholics, and 1 from the Jews. This did not look as though the matter were a sham. Even upon pecuniary ground; the petitioners were dissatisfied with the pre sent state of things. But were not the colonists the a t e l d V t h h e a n t t t h h e e n noble obl e lord (Earl Grey) was the last man who should oppose the a b t e s t t h judges e g a e d s o o of t t h h e e r Government i m ni e e n s t ts st i wishes of the colonies, the noble earl had made a gesture of dissent ; but he (the Duke of Newcastle) could quote from the interesting book which the noble earl hadlately published two pages in which he laid down the constitutional maxim, that the colonies were the best judges of their own internal affairs. Whilst upon the subjeet he, might refer to a dispatch of the noble earl opposite (Earl of Derby)s written in the year 1842, upon the subject of the grant of a constitution to Van Diemen's Land. In that dispatch the noble earl stated that to grant a representative system would be to put an end to the maintenance of our present system of trans portation to the colony. He (the Duke of Newcastle) believed that to be a statesmanlike view of the case, and fully concurred in thinking that a representative system and a system of transportation were incompatible. As to the real practical effect of the gold diggings upon the transport, the return for the first nine months of the year 1852 showed that no less than 1,413 ticket-of-leave men had absconded from their employments during that period to go to the gold fields ; of these only 738 were apprehended and brought back. In a dispatch, dated . about the month of F e b ruary last, he had explained the views of the borne Government to the Governor of Van Diemen's Land, and informed bins of the intention of her Majesty's Government to put a stop to the then system of transportation. He (the Duke of Newcastle) had seen nothing to induce him to change his opinion since the writing of that dispatch ; on the contrary, he was sure that to ease the colony from its theh excited state was a thing of primary importance. With respect to the committee presided over by the noble and learned lord near him (Lord Brougham), he could not find in the report of that c omm itt ee t h at absolute approval of transportation to which the noble earl (Earl Grey) had referred. The committee seem e d ra th er to have come to the conclusion that in certain cases the punishment of actual banishment might be very efficacious. And on looking to the evidence the same idea was borne out. Thus, the Hon. Mr. Law, the late Recorder of London, confined his testimony to those p ersons w h o h ad bee n guilty of obtaining money under false pretences. Mr. Devonport Hill, the Recorder of Birmingham, the Rev. J. Clay, the chaplain of Preston Gaol, and other witnesses before the committee, stated that transportation was much dreaded by the old women and men, but not by the young. The chaplains of Reading and Bath Gaols expressed their opinion that transportation was not generally dreaded by crimi nals. These officers were much better judges of the effect of transportation than even his noble friend the Lord Chief Justice. It was in fact mainly applicable to that class of criminals who were designated in the evi dence by the rather strange and anomalous title of "re spectable criminals." (Laughter.) Six years had passed since this inquiry was made, and great changes had taken place. Whatever might have been the terrors of transportation, they were now greatly mitigated by the altered circumstances of the times. Wfien the com mittee sat, emigration was looked upon with a kind of dread by the inhabitants of country parishes ; and those who did emigrate never thought of going further than Canada. In those parishes where the population was most redundant, it had required all the exertions and all the persuasion of the landlords and the clergy to in duce the labourers to emigrate. Now, the great diffi culty was in retaining the population ; and so far from emigration being a terror, the labouring population looked upon it as an advantage, and it was one to which they aspired. The committee had come to the conclu sion that imprisonment in this country was not sufficient as a secondary punishment ; but since their report was made, prison discipline had been greatly improved, and would be still more so. The report recommended that new methods should be found of dealing with juvenile offenders, also that the education of the poorer classes should be improved. Both those objects had been at• tended to ; and he hoped the efforts that had been made would go on increasing. The noble earl (Grey) had stated, on a former occasion, that 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 would be let loose on this country before the end of the present year. But supposing the transportation to the Australian colonies abandoned altogether, the whole number would not amount to more than 2,000 for the year. Earl GREY—Do you include those sent to the Aus tralian colonies from Gibraltar and Bermuda, or only those seat from Great Britain and Ireland ? The Duke of NEWCASTLE said his statement only included those sent from Great Britain and Ireland. The average number sent out for the last five years to Australia from Great Britain and Ireland was 1,945 ; if those sent from Bermuda and Gibraltar were included, the average was only 100 from each place. The annual number of vacancies was 400 in Bermuda, and 200 in Gibraltar. Therefore, were transportation to the whole of the Aus tralian colonies to cease at once, the total increase of the criminal population poured upon this country, in ad dition to those annually poured upon us by the libera tion of prisoners at the expiration of their sentences, would be 1,945 in respect of those convicts sent from Great Britain and Ireland, and 200 from Bermuda and Gibraltar. In 1846, when this inquiry was made, all the convicts sentenced to seven years' transportation were sent to the hulks, a system which it was univer sally admitted had demoralised the convicts instead of reforming them. Yet the whole of these convicts, so demoralised, were thrown upon the free population of this country ; not one of them was ever transported. There was no pretence that we had suffered from this ; but we were now dreading the effect of a far lesser num ber being thrown upon the population, though reformed by the improved system of prison discipline, and by the system of labour and separate confinement introduced in 1846. What was taking place at the present moment ? Assuming that Western Australia would continue to take about 1,000 convicts, annually, that the number sentenced to %rnsportation would be reduced by the substitution of imprisonment for certain offences, and that about one.half of those now transported would be released within this country in consequence of the change of the law, what would be the proportion to that of the criminal class now percolating amongst us under the present system ? An abstract of an official return made by thst independent and valuable public servant Major Jebb, showed that the total number of persons tried in 1851 was 27,949, of whom 2,981 was sentenced to transportation, leaving, 25,058 who were otherwise disposed of. Of the number sentenced to transportation at least one-third were never sent out of the country ; so that not more than 2,000 were sent abroad in 1851, all the remainder receiving punishment in this country, and being released at the expiration of their sentences. Another return showed that of 2,818 prisoners tried, 174 were sentenced to transportation, of whom only 120 were actually transported. There could be very little danger from this small increase to the number of criminals relieved in this country. At this moment the pro portion ofconvicts to the population in Van Diemen's Land was about one in three. In this country, supposing the numbers released to be augmented by a portion of those formerly transported, and making the greatest allowance for this number, still the proportion would only be about one in 30,000 of the population. (Hear, hear.) Though we had deri ve d th e grea t es t poss ibl e advantage from the system of transportation, especially of late years, we were arriving at a period when, by great alterations in our system of prison discipline, and by the prevalence of more enlightened views, we were likely to be in a posi tion before long to dispense with safety with the punish ment of transportation. It was most important to give the convicts useful and remunerative employment ; and it was desirable that out of their earnings a certain amount should be laid by to provide for them when they came out of prison, and to enable them to get into some honest way of living, instead of being sent out houseless and destitute, and with no alternative but to turn to their former course of life. They might be employed, as was recommended by Major Jebb, in harbours of refuge, dockyards, and other public works. At present about 1,000 convicts were employed in Chatham dockyard, beneficially as regarded themselves, and advantageously as regarded the public. If they persevered in that course, he hoped they should soon be in a condition to discuss calmly and deliberately whether the system of transportation might not with advantage be wholly abandoned. The altered circumstances of the times de manded a change in the system. The adoption of forced labour for convicts had been felt to be a hardship by labourers generally, there being then a redundancy of labour. This was no longer the case, for able-bodied men, in every part of the country, readily found employ ment. (Hear, hear.) It should be remembered that other countries had no system of transportation ; neither the United States nor France pursued such a system ; and though the travaux forces had failed in Francs, it was no argument why a similar system should not succeed here. He had that morning perused an account of an improved system of prison discipline adopted at Munich, the effects of which were such as might make even Major Jebb himself envious. The Government had done nothing in this matter at variance with either the spirit or the letter of any act of Parliament. Ho had shown the ne cessity of giving up the system of transportation to Van Diemen's Land, and had shown the means of doing this, by improving our system of secondary punish ments at home. The transportation to Western Austra lia would be continued ; and he, fully anticipated from it benefit, both to the colony and the mother country. (Hear, hear.) In taking this step the Government had not been influenced by any agitation in the colonies, but had only listened to those claims which he thought to be just. The noble earl (Grey) had pointed out the distinc tion between a wise statesman and a shallow politician. He would remind the noble earl that it was also the duty of statesmen, of those who undertook the responsible duties of ministers of this great country, to watch the progress of events—to concede where concession was necessary, and to concede in time ; not to wait until de mands became too clamorous to be resisted, but to con cede before it was too late. Such a concession ought to be made with a good grace, when it might be accepted as a boon, and might engender feelings of harmony and concord between the mother country and the colonies, instead of being delayed till too late, when it would be a regarded only in the colonies as a sign of i w w ould expose ministers to the very clar'aekness. and e which the noble earl deprecated. (Hear, hear.) The Government hoped to be able to carry out such measures as would meet the wishes of the colonists, and would promote the interests of this great country, without doing anything to destroy that security for life and property here which it was most essential to maintain. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL asked whether the mover of the amendment meant it to be added to the resolution, or to be a substitute for it. If the former, it quite concurred with the motion ; they were perfectly harmonious. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had put it as an amen ; to leave out all the wo r d s o f t h e original resolutionen after the word " that." The Earl of CHICHESTER stated that he had so proposed it. Lord CAMPBELL said in that case, he should advise their lordships to adopt the address and reject the amend ment. (Hear, hear.) As a judge of the land, and having a seat in their lordships' house, he thought it his duty to take that course. when After there appeared some further disc ussion their l or d s hi ps d i vided, -- Forthe motion ................................. 37 Against it ........................................ 54 Majority.., ..................... The amendment was then agreed to. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. 17 HOUSE OF COMMONS-{YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair shortly before 4 o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Lords' amendments to the following bills were consi dered and agreed to :—Brighton, Hoye, and Preston Water Works ; Cambridge University and Town Water Works • Cardiff Waterworks ; Liverpool Borough Court; Sheffield Water Works ; Stock Improvement ; Wakefield Soke Mills. The Severn Navigation Bill was read a third time and passed. The following bills were considered and ordered to be read a third time :—Darenth Valley Railway ; Edin burgh and Glasgow Railway ; Midland Railway (Leices t:r and llitchin) ; Monkland Railways ; Norwich and Spalding Railway ; Portadown and Dungannon Rail way ; Thames Haven Dock and Railway ; York Drainage and Sanitary Improvement and Foss Navigation. The Whittlebury Forest Bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed. PETITIONS. _ _ _ Mr. POTTER presented a petition from Limerick against the income tax. Sir J. ANDERSON presented a petition from Stir ling in favour of national arbitration, and against th opening of th e C r y s t a l P a l ace on Sundays. Mr. THORNELY presented a petition from Dublin, praying for Parliamentary enfranchisement for the Uni versity of London. Mr. COLLIER presented a petition from an indivi dual named Smith, complaining of the injuries done to him by the ecclesiastical courts. Mr. KERSHAW presented a petition from 1,000 of the working men of Stockport in favour of the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sundays. (Hear, hear.) Mr. KINNAIRD presented petitions praying for the inspection of nunneries. Mr. B. WALL presented petitions from Stockport and other places, praying for an alteration ,in the mar riage law. • • Mr. O'CONNOR HENCHY presented a number o petitions from places in Ireland in favour of the ballot. f Mr. M'MAHON presented petitions from places in Ireland in favour of tenant right. Mr. H. BERKELEY presented a petition from 800 voters of Chatham praying that the house will not dis franchise the dockyard artisans, but protect them by the ballot ; also, other petitions in favour of the ballot ; and petitions from Bristol praying for alterations in the budget. Mr. DUFFY presented a petition from Kilrose against the extension of the income tax to Ireland. Mr. PETO presented a petition from Norwich in favour of legalising marriages with a deceased wife's sis ter ; also a number of petitions praying for the enfran chisement of the London University. Mr. W. J. FOX presented petitions to the same effect ; also petitions from the City of London and the Tower Hamlets praying that the Crystal Palace may be opened on Sundays. Mr. FAGAN presented a petition from Cork against the extension of the income tax to Ireland. Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from Bethnal green in favour of the ballot. Sir W. MOLESWORTH presented 42 petitions from Van Diemen's Land, praying for the abolition of trans portation ; also, a petition from Southwark, in favour of the ballot ; the prayers of which petitions the right hon. bart. said he cordially supported. Mr. WARNER presented a petition from 500 work ing men of Norwich, in favour of the opening of the Crystal Palace on Sunday. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petititon from Bir mingham, in favour of legalising marriages with a de ceased wife's sister. Mr. GARDNER presented four petitions to the same effect. Lord A. VANE presented a petition from Dublin, praying for the inspection of nunneries. Colonel DUNNE presented a petition from Portar lington against the income tax. Mr. HUME presented petitions from Basingstoke and Great Yarmouth in favour of the ballot. PLYMOUTH ELECTION. Mr. AGLIONBY brought up the report of the select committee on this election, which will be found in an other part of our columns. Sir J. SHELLEY presented petitions from St. Cle ment Danes, and St. Ann's, Westminster, in favour of the ballot. On the motion of Mr. AGLIONBY, the evidence taken before the Plymouth committee was ordered to be printed. NOTICE OF MOTION. Mr. COBDEN gave notice that this day month he should bring under the consideration of the house the subject of the annexation of the province of Pegu to the territory of the East India Company. LAND TAX. Mr. WODEHOUSE wished to put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, relating to the proposed measure for giving increased facility to the act for the Redemption of the Land Tax, viz. :—Whether the mea sure now proposed is intended to supersede, or in any way to preclude the consideration of the question of a periodical revision ; also, whether a more extensive inquiry should not now be made, by means of which the evils complained of might be in a great degree lessened, without infringing on the benefits already realised by re demption. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the measure now proposed was intended only to facilitate the redemption of the land tax, and it was not intended that any further inquiry should be made with a view to a readjustment of the tax. DUBLIN EXHIBITION. If Mr. P. O'BRIEN wished to ask the Secretary-at- War whether it was his intention to recommend to the noble lord the Commander-in-Chief the propriety of granting leave of absence to such officers of the Army as may be desirous of viewing the great Industrial Exhibi tion in Dublin—similar leave having been granted dur ing the holding of the great Exhibition in 1851 ? Mr. S. HERBERT said, the power of granting leave of absence entirely rested with the commander-in-chief, but it was not likely that leave could be given in the manner required until late in the year. Alf 4 '• ( 4 4 e.. -•,-(-,;- ' qaci Vd SA INCOME TAX. In reply to Sir F. KELLY, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there was no intention to make any alteration in favour of farmers who already had an extensive power of appeal. SCOTCH SPIRITS. In reply to Lord NAAS, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that there was no present intention on the part of the Government to allow a drawback on home-made Scotch spirits in bond. EXCHEQUER BILLS BILL. This bill was read a third time and passed. INSPECTION OP NUNNBRIES, Mr. T. CHAMBERS rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to facilitate the recovery of per sonal liberty in certain cases, and having claimed the indulgence of the house while he delivered a maiden speech, he proceeded to state that, in making this motion, he had no desire to wound the religious feelings of any one. Still it would be his duty to touch upon theological topics, because there was a class of persons in the state who were subject to unduerestraint and hardship, and it was in respect of this class that he wished now to legislate. There were institutions existing in ' this country which were beyond the reach of all the enactments to be found on the statute book, and which were used for the purpose of keeping females in restraint. His bill, in fact, would point at monastic institutions ; and, as the Legislature had more than once passed enactments in that spirit, there could be nothing novel or strange in this motion. The law as it now stood, however, was a dead letter, and he wished to bring in a bill to render it more stringent. It was too much the practice to describe nunneries and mo nastic institutions as places of calm retreat, where females could retire to who were anxious to quit the pomps and vanities of the world, but it frequently happened that so far from being places of this character, they were little better than prisons where females were detained against their will, upon the lame pretence that such detention was for their spiritual welfare. In tie majority of instances, no doubt, these institutions were places of peaceful and comfortable retreat for persons who wished to lead a se cluded life, but the public mind believed that many of these convents were full of those who were dis contented. Most of these convents were built like prisons with bolts and bars, and porters at the doors watching all day and night. All these architectural features resembled those of an ordinary prison.. They had high walls, and other guards against intrusion, besides cells and dungeons, and the public m ra m ce on alike ast Agapentonies and Monastic i his s s bi s l t l ro w ng a l s y n o ot ppo t s n e t d en t d o ed su t c o h esta blishments. bdliirshoomted against enta.3ut Angle-Catholic Roman Catholic convents.io-ca tho lt nunneries. wouldemb srecognised that by r t g h u e m c e o u n t s t a i t s u i d t i o o t n a h l e law wo u l o d f something that told much st ronger i n c t v h o o m e w e l s ai " : d t e o r ; e b n u o t t favour of his motion. It could hardly be said that there were no discontented nuns in the country, or why should there be so much rhetoric wasted in ex horting those already in nunneries to keep t dm h e e an i n r o uc v na o ct w hi n s o .. If there was not a class of discontented nuns i n this country z t w i e clergy h o sighed w f e o r r e liberty, con tin n h a o l w l y admonishing c a ei tt h atth e orR o w s ho eh w a clereaanss existed xioustoab:.ands theirgtro n y g ow ar s Zrum Th en e t fipnaecitotnhast n favour of this bill, but there was another argument which he must adduce in support of his motion. (Hear, hear.) Almost every other country in Europe but England provided a remedy for th e case which thi s bill contemplated. In Prussia, f or in stance, no no v i ce cou l d take the veil without the consent of the civil au th or i ties ; whilein Russia no nun could enter a convent without the permission of the Synod of Moscow. In Bavaria vows could not be taken for a longer period than three years, while the State reserved to itself the right of visiting these monastic institutions, and setting those persons at liberty who were anxious to return to the world. The same practice prevailed in France • and though he did not wish to follow the example of foreign countries, he thought these proofs were conclusive against all these monastic institutions being simply places of peaceful retreat. No doubt he should be met with the objection that the bill was opposed to religious liberty, but it was no such thing. All that it could do would be to se cure civil liberty to parties who wished it. The Roman Catholic Relief Act entirely prohibited the t o t ence of monastic institutions for males, but a reserv ati on was which was made in favour of some half-dozen establis were in existence at the time the act was passed, to the Roman were confined to females. Accorctirnglßs 3 it appeared Catholic Directory and Almanac, f s e . er nts va that Catholic Church, while of those nunneries in England Catholic Church he believed there attached that there t owtebree Romann no less t han 7 5 belonging to the Ango . were not less than a hundred, containing something like 7 71