The Sun. — London, England, 1853-03-19 00:00:00

SOUTH AUSTRALIA. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT OF THE TIMES.) MELBOURNE, Nov. 26, 1852. The town has lon g a ppe a red to be as full as it could hold, yet new arrivals continue to pour in upon us. Last Week five or six vessels from England alone came into the harbour. On the outskirts of the town the differ ent coloni es o f tents are rap idl y b ecom i ng littl e b ranc h towns. Lodging-house keepers constantly advertise v acancies, but no one knows what this means till he tries it. The overcrowding, extortion, dirt; and vermin are so unbearable, that most new corners who do not rush aw ay t o t h e di gg i ngs, t a k e t o a t en t fife as soon as Possible. While on the subject of overcrowding, you will be glad to hear that several captains of vessels ar- Vving at Adelaide and Geelong have recently been fined 00/. each for having more than the legal number of emi grants on board. Why, is it not done here—the fine b eing made proportionate to the number in excess per head ? It would be the saving of many lives during the v oyage. The soldiers are beginning to desert from the 40th Regiment, and are off to the diggings. Upwards of 20 are Rune ; 251. per head is offered for their a pprehension. Murlers in the bush are said to be on the increase, but think this is only because more bodies have been disco vered. Th ere a l ways h ave b een , and there continue to I b e, many murders at the different diggings, and in their vicinity, which are never known. A murder is easy anywhere—in England or anywhere in the world=the great difficulty is to dispose of the body. At the dig gings, especially among the more isolated tents, and in the solitude of the bush, th er e is no further difficulty ,than that of di gg i ng an unprofitable hole. The " pro fit" was found in the pocket or belt of the deceased. A gentleman is seldom murdered ; first, because he almost a lways makes a desperate resistance to the last drop ; s econdly, because he is sure to be inquired after, and his murderers pursued ; and, thirdly, because he is sober, and not to be entrapped into drinking—more wary, ac tive, armed, and better practised in the use of arms. They know that it is likely to be a very serious business to murder a gentleman. But with the ordinary run of t he working men diggers—especially if a single man, With no wife to cause any vigorous search or inquiry after him, what more easy than to make him drink, or catch him ready drunk to their bands, and then, if he has gold about him he is sure to boast of it, and his murder often follows as a matter of course, and nobody ever hears anything of the matter. The, erection of the galvanised iron house to add a branch office to the Post-office is proceeding very slowly —out, perhaps, not slowly when the difficulties of the town are considered. There certainly has not been half room enough for the business these two months and more. Clerks have been seen. (private windows having been continually broken by the close pressure of crowds outside), walking over the floors apparently a foot deep With letters and newspapers. Several days, and some times several weeks elapse before letters and newspapers which arrive from England are delivered. I have good reason to know this. The trade in English bank notes still goes on flourish lnglY. One of the offices impudently writes up in large letters, " Bank of England notes and foreign coins pur ehase." The discount varies with the "customer " or victim, from 20 to 30 per cent. Since the two tons' weight of gold brought down by Mr. Horne, a still larger quantity has been escorted by his troop from Bendigo and Forest Creek ; but during the last two or three weeks the quantity has sud denly fallen to about two-thirds or less. Many of the diggers have been crying out that it is all over With those localities ; nevertheless, two escorts still continue to bring down between 100,0001. worth of gold, an d o ft en more , every wee k ( no t t o speak of t he amount which s ome di ggers c h oose t o b r ing down t hemselves in their belts, or to bury in their tents) so that it • is clear there must still be some very fine pick-. l ogs. The truth is, that in the absence of science and raehinery, getting gold is a question of good luck and b ody strength. It is just a lottery, in which there are a great many prizes. You always hear of the prizes at ° nce, and very slowly of the blanks. But by this time fa ncy the news of the blanks must have reached you, and probably some of the blanks have returned with rueful faces to speak for themselves. Great numbers who have been to the Ovens diggings have returned, declaring it a hoax. Much money and mine have be en l os t th ere a l rea dy. I do not by any rUeans consider it a hoax. There is plenty of gold there, _but it m a y no t repay a mere p i c k an d shovel for their l abour, or the rich veins and nuggets may be coy. Mr. - nlowitt's cart broke down on the way, and I fear also that the climate has not agreed with him. Mr. Har graves, the originator of the grand movement of gold digging, in the Aust ra li an fi e ld s , has just arrived in Mel bourne, after making a circuit of all the principal gold fields of thi s co l ony . Lik e any s t rang er newly come, he had to go from house to house and from street to street ‘e find a lodging for the night. He eventually got shelter in a small public-house. FOREST CREEL Nov. 30, 1852. Great numbe rs o f di g gers are arriving here from the wens, having returned utterly disappointed. They e xpected to succeed at once, and had not exercised a i'ational judgment in preparing to " hold out" for the t tirne a fai r t r i a l req uires. Many remain here, but, per .qaPs, rather more return to Bendigo and the vicinit y . o.• oonlight Flat has been in great favour lately in con sequence of a man named Merton dropping upon gold 4 _ "0 th e value of 1,7001. in the course of nine days, all got I kt of one hole. are)aTg—r-ogtents still fl'ourish, though the proprie 'ere caught now and then and fined 501. A word s e o n m t e b w is e point. The grogseller has a " plant" of grog in the bush (buried, probably, near some marked h srpeot), and he also conveys . Ismall l. portion at a time into his tent to pro bably knows of this plant, and Now, A 3 :4llet,intnu't this would stop the trade of the man, and as the policeman has a. share of the fine on his discovery, he only seizes what the grogseller has got in his tent, and thus enables him to. go on again till " ripe" for another fine. The grogseller does not mind this. His profits are so eno r- 1 xsous, he can afford to p a y a fine of 501. occasionally. ) gut if he was sent down to M elbourne, to be imprisoned i for three months instead (as the law allows), his sly I grog trade, together with the bribery and corruption, would be stopped at once. It is to be understood that few of thesepolicemen are at all trained men in the force,• but just such raw recruits as can be obtained. 1:11s Excellency Mr. La Trobe has just visited, these 1 liggings, an d expressed his intention ' of acceding to f o S everal requests from great numbers as to the sale d for small holdings, which muc h de lighted the Eggers, especially as they have just heard of the throw lug out of the Export Duty Bill. MELBOURNE, DEC. 4. There is a good sprinkling of Chinainen here, to add to the other motley costumes of the town. A few days ago two of these, who had been in the bush, entered Melbourne most awkwardly, ridiculously, and yet more conceitedly attired, in soldiers' sca rlet coats 13 • 1 3 d black upright caps. They had found them l 'arnioned into the hollow of a gum tree by de serters. 20 or 30 more soldiers (and more than that I believe) have deserted from the 40th Regiment. If a !err of these, after being unsuccessful as diggers, should have the wit to place themselves under a corporal, and a ssociate with a band of bushrangers, and thus in fuse some notion of an organised attack. they are 'very likely to turn an eye upon the rich booty always carried by th e go ld escor t s • and the solitudes of th e _nab, or the mazes of the Black Forest, will then furnish them with very tempting opportunities for ambuscade and onslaught. We are in the beginnin g o f th e A us t ra li an s ummer, _ flel some parts of the day are very hot, and some are cold, and the evenings and nights are cold. The ma- Jerity of the people have got, or have had, the influenza, solely, I believe, from such sudden changes. Some wretched little green gooseberries have made their appearance in the shops, in company with some cherries, such as are sold on the stalls in London at 3d. per 1 30 und, but here they are 4 s . an d s s . the pound. The lettuces, which resemble bad cabbages, are Bd. each ; and the cabbages, which resemble young docks, are ls. e ach. Peas are good, and as cheap as in England, and adiehes are very fine, tender, and not hot, though of a tamense size. Gold has been collected in the gutters by children, and f leraped up from the footway in Collins-street. An old steam-boat paddle-box has been converted into a " gold office," and is doing very well. But several other trades are doing well besides the gold diggers. I know from th e best authority that two or three grocers in the town have been making from 24,0001. to 27,0001 in the last Year, and are now making at that rate per annum. some, indeed most, of the butchers on the diggings have blade fortunes. In Melbourne bakers, linendrapers, and S hoemakers have done a famous business, and now that labou r is b e ginning to come into the market the master 'carpenters and builders are likely to realise large sums. . 8. 41, 4 itinerant knife and scissor s- g rinder—the first seen 'ere—and a locomotive shoe-black have also made their 40 0/. or 500/. a-year. But this will not last. Grinding and blacking, with some other thin g s, reall y must c ome down. Washerwomen carr ied their suds ver y high, charging from 9s. to 12s. a dozen—a shirt and Its attendant collar reckoning as two. Some gentle laen gave away, or threw away, all dirty clothes that were almost new, and many went down the stream 0 f the Yarra Yarra, washed and rough-dried all small articles themselves, and bought new ones in the tow n. to This apparently rudent proceedingff is, after all, like everythi ng e l se h ere — a " speculation, as we have .i. pay storage for every bundle or package, and the bun -6 of so me gen tl emen ' s roug h-d r ied clothes have by „ time multiplied considerably, and washing still con 4sues " firm" at from 9s. to Its. per dozen. DEC. 6. A. considerable increase iu the number of women, most .1 3 _f them of a respectable kind, has taken place in Mel u°urne within the last few weeks. There are also more 11 1) at the diggings. The concealed tents for unlawful Purposes at the diggings—grog selling, gambling, &c. — arc reduced in number. The shops in Melbourne are tidly improving, and have recently rece i v ed most tghtening additions in the shape of jewellery; but i,Urglaries and robberies in the open streets are more uall usually daring. DEO. 10. Wehave had very cool weather, with now and then 4 , ls roilin g d a y, an d h o t c l ou d s o f d us t. O n th e n i g h t o f t i ue 7th we had a magnificent storm of thunde r a nd bg l itning—lakes and seas of flame in the sky—followed 1 ,/ a del uge o f ra i n . Th e a i r h as b een coo l ever s i nce. he Bummer is very late. No doubt we shall have it hot e n ough shortly. mi nes n ews I h ave j ust rece i ve d from the Burra Burra fi; ll3 ,T B is that Sclmeider's Patent Copper Company have tire iu their smelting-houses—a sure sign they ex -I~lreturn of smelters. Many of them were receiving and 201. a mon th w h e n they left. I know of at _eaat 10 in this place who have abandoned digging, and '4lO about to return to Burra Burra. THE SUN, LOND-ON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 19, 1853. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The Royal assent was this afternoon given by com mission to the Mutiny, Marine Mutiny, Consolidated Fund, County Election Polls, Grand Jury Cess, Indem nity and Commons Inclosure, and Inland Revenue Bills. The Commissioners were the Lord Chancellor, the Duke of Argyll, and the Marquis of Breadalbane. At five o'clock the LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack. The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from a place in Scotland, praying that the ordnance survey of Scotland be continued. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Dun fermline, against tests imposed on professors in Scotch universities. The Bishop of St. DAVID'S presented a petition against the admission of Jews into Parliament. The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from the city of Devon to the same effect. The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from Colchester praying for Parliamentary papers. THE SIX-MILE BRIDGE AFFRAY. The Earl of DERBY rose to ask whether there would be any objection to lay before this house copies of all the papers relating to the Six-mile Bridge affray, being identical with those which had been moved for and granted in the other house last night. The Earl of ABERDEEN said there could be no pos sible objection. The Earl of CARDIGAN complained of the course which had been taken by the Government in placing the soldiers on their trial after the assurances which he had heard from the noble earl at the head of the Government that no distinction should be made between the priests and the soldiers. He also expressed himself as greatly astonished at the doctrine which had been propounded by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that any man who stood for a populous place without a very perfect chance of success was answerable for all the excesses which might take place at that election. - - - • _›! The Earl of ABERDEEN deprecated the irregular introduction of the noble earl's remarks. The noble earl opposite (Derby) had moved for papers, no doubt, with the intention of founding some motion on the sub ject. It would have been better if the noble lord had waited until that occasion. He also deprecated any allusion to the proceedings of the other house of Parlia ment. The Bishop of EXETER was glad to hear the last remark which had fallen from the noble earl. If such were his o pinion, he hoped that the noble earl ha d already intimated, or would immediately intimate, to a right hon. colleague of his in the other house (Sir W. Molesworth), who, some few nights ago, had done him (th e Bishop of Exeter) the honour to allude in not very favourable terms to some remarks which had fallen from him in this house. (Hear, bear.) The papers were then agreed to. THE OVER-CROWDED STATE OF THE METROPOLIS. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose according to no tice to move that for the future every company coming for a bill before their lordships' house, and proposing to take any houses occupied by the labouring classes for the purposes of their undertakings, should be obliged to prove that by taking such houses they would not run the danger of over-crowding neighbouring houses, and in cases they should not prove that such would not be the case, that the company be obliged to provide houses of the same capa city, as near as possible to the locality of the houses destroyed. The noble lord proceeded to describe the hardships which had been inflicted by the ejection of the inhabitants occupying the houses destroyed by the for mation of the Victoria-street, the Blackwall Railway, and other undertakings of a similar nature. Those masses were driven from the locality in which they had resided, and to which they were attached by proximity to the scene of their labour, to seek for work at a great distance from the place of their employment, and were compelled, if they did not go to "a considerable distance, which in many instances would involve almost the ruin of families, to reside as near as possible to the spot, in dwellings already overcrowded, teeming with filth and engendering disease. His proposition would not inter fere with any existing rights, and it was only fair, when a company.came forward to ask for new powers, very considerable in extent, and affecting the condition of hundreds of thousands of the poor, that they should exact such conditions as would render the improvements that were proposed, and which could not produce any direct or immediate benefit to the poorer classes, as little oppressive as possible to those classes. He might be told that this evil prevailed only in the most crowded and central parts of the town. It was perfectly true that its worst form existed in the most densely populated localities, and it would perhaps be better that the stand ing order should in the first instance extend only to such localities. But it was said the rule ought not to apply to railways, because it would convert them into building eompanies. Why, railway companies were at present great builders of houses, and at Rugby, Swindon, Co ventry, and Wolverton, great masses of dwellings had b ee n constructed by them ; besides which, there were the great hotels at Paddington and Euston-square. In fact, railway companies had no hesitation now in be coming the owners and managers of docks, packets, fac tories, foundries, hotels, dwelling-houses, and everything that could subserve their interests, and therefore there could be no reason why they should not be required to provide houses for the accommodation of those of the poorer classes whom their enterprises displaced. It was said that this proposition might operate as a bar to in ternal improvement, He did not believe it would have that effect, but he was sure, however persons in com fortable circumstances might delight in the improvement of London and other towns, that in a large proportion of instances these improvements, so far as regarded the so cial condition of the humbler classes, were no improve ments at all, but on the contrary much increased the evil under which the large mass of the people laboured, and that unless some check of this kind was adopted the evil would become absolutely intolerable. The principle for which he contended was already recognised by the other house of Parliament in the standing orders with respect to inclosure bills, in which a provision was required to be introduced for leaving an open space in the most appro priate situation, sufficient for the exercise and recreation of the people. He could assert of his own knowledge that the people of this country did look to their lord ships' house for the redress of many of their grievances ; and he did trust—and he ventured to say further, he be lieved—that their wisheS in this respect would not be disappointed. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord concluded by moving in the terms above stated. _ The Bishop of LONDON entirely concurred with what had fallen from the noble lord, and begged most cordially to second his proposition. Lord REDESDALE trusted that their lordships, in considering this subject, would not merely look to the evils which bad arisen from the overcrowding of the population in certain cases—an evil tp which no one was mor e opposed than himself, and for 'which he acknow ledged the importance of providing a remedy ; but he hoped they would consider the practical effect of passing this standing order. It might be right in the case of certain bills for internal improvements ; but that was a very different thing from passing a standing order, mak ing a provision of this kind compulsory in all cases. The Earl of DERBY thought their lordships must feel greatly indebted to the noble lord (Lord Shaftes bury) for bringing before their notice a subject of great importance, to which the noble lord himself had always devoted his own attention, and which, perhaps, had not hitherto received from the Legislature as much at tention as it deserved in itself, and as it was entitled to receive from the helplessness of the class whom it chiefly concerned. He quite concurred that in the considera tion of bills for the construction of railways and effecting improvements in towns, too exclusive strictatttentionhad, perhaps, been given to the rights o otfhprroipArtsy, ya were the of that class of persons who, called, and too slight attention talthoeugh. possessed eo t e ry evi dence of the actual amount and measure of a property, could yet produce the same .they sustained, as t th t in the case even He further concurred a property. hose who were the owners of real effected for sanitary objects, provements, which had been . of many improvements so-called, and doubtless real im crowding in particular been to aggravate the evils of over the almost inevitable consequence in some instances.. had • l evil from arising, neighbourhoods. Indeed he could not see bow it was possible to prevent such an incidental and therefore h e agreed with his n oble friend (Lord Re and that the i m position of too strict a set of condi tions would render it almost impracticable to carry into effect any improvement. He would, therefore, suggest to his noble friend (Lord. Shaftesbury) adulating that the house ought to take steps for inquiring into what would be the effect of imp roveme nts of this nat ure, u p on the comforts and convenience of the working-classes, whether it would not be advisable that he should recon sider his proposition, with the view of ascertaining if he could not embody its principle and object in words of a ' less stringent and inflexible ch arac t er . The Earl of ABERDEEN said it was quite unneces hhs a oa r y ud si on f otro view hdimo justice or no s bringingfortio e a t n o y t hotothhiosehrjqemuc question i w b o enhri before f 0 their e e t i rhel nobleomrds h Te i a p hr s e i miedo quite g t i e v d e a s g ra n o e f de dr t the oi with noble de ; e n a orblbul but he uh lordse t ( b t e hwe u h n Eo i av had l r a s do a f l p l A y o i bn a e c t . erkddneooew un t\ , that in his desire to obtain a great good the noble earl , had proposed that the execution of which was clearly impossible, and they must take care that in attempting to accompli sh an object in which all must agree,theY they did not incur those practical difficulties which would render vain all their efforts. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) need not trouble their lordships with repeat ing the objection which had been already stated to the course proposed by the noble earl, because it appeared to him to be quite conclusive. The subject, however, was well worthy of the attention of their lordships, and if the noble earl thought fit to inquire more fully into the matter by means of a committee, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) was sure that there could I'3e no objection to a proposal of that kind. (Hear, hear.) ' But their lordships were clearly not in a position to pass a com prehensive standing order like this, professing to em brace all matters of this description which could come under their consideration. He would suggest to the noble earl to withdraw his resolution for the present, and upon further consideration to bring in some practi cal measure which would have a better prospect of effect ing the desired result. ( Hear, hear.) The Earl of HARROWBY entirely agreed in the opinion that it would be more advisable to give the sub ject greater considera tion before they made any standing order, and he was not sure whether it would not be bet ter to refer the question to a select committee, to inquire into the best way of effecting the object proposed by his noble friend. The Earl of CARLISLE most cordially concurred both with his noble friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) and with the right rev. prelate who had spoken with regard to the magnitude of the evil complained of, and the great desirableness of affording some effectual remedy. The Earl of WICKLOW paid that there could be no doubt-of-the-good intentions by which the noble earl had been animated in bringing forward this resolution, but it appeared to him (the Earl of Wicklow) that he had not given to the whole subject that consideration which it required. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said he should be happy to accept the offer which had been made to him by the noble earl at the head of the Government, and he would now, in withdrawing his resolution, merely observe that, so far as he was concerned, he should not rest until, with God's blessing, he had attained his end. (Hear, hear.) The motion was then withdrawn. THE CHURCH IN THE COLONIES. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from the diocese of Sydney, protesting against the introduction of any system of church government into the colonies in which the bishop, clergy, and laity should not meet in one council with one jurisdiction. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY believed that some legislation on the subject was necessary, but at the same time he considered it was matter of great difficulty. The Duke of NEWCASTLE declined to enter into any discussion, but explained that the colonial bishops had not impugned the Queen's supremacy. After some further discussion, in which the Bishop of EXETER and Lord MONTEAGLE differed as to the consti tutional origin of the Queen's supremacy, The petition was ordered to lie on the table. THE ADJOURNMENT. The Earl of ABERDEEN then moved the adjourn ment of the house to Monday, the 4th of April. The Earl of DERBY said that, although the noble earl had moved an adjournment of rather longer dura tion than usual, he was not about to offer any objection on the part of the house to the length of that adjourn ment, nor to the period to which the noble earl pro posed to adjourn. If the noble earl had proposed, ac cording to the usual practice, to adjourn to a period three or four days later than the time fixed upon by the House of Commons, he should have seen no reason for objecting to that longer adjournment. He should be glad ' to hear, and he was sure it would meet the convenience of their lordships, if the noble earl would assure them that it was not the intention of the Government to pro ceed with any business of importance during the first three or four days after the reassembling of the house. He trusted the noble earl would inform their lordships whether the object of meeting at the time mentioned was not rather to carry on the legal business of the house than to proceed with any questions of political import ance. He could not allow the house 'to separate with out taking the opportunity of repeating a question which he took the liberty of putting to the noble earl at the commencement of the session, and to which he was unsuccessful in obtaining, an answer—namely, what are the measures to be submitted on the part of the Govern ment to the consideration of your lordships' house dur ing the present session ? (Hear.) At that time the noble earl declined giving him any information with re gard to the measures of the Government, but stated that shortly afterwards the noble and learned lord on the woolsack would declare the intentions of the Go- vernment with regard to great and important questions of legal reform ; and, accordingly, three or four days afterwards, the noble and learned lord entered very much at large into the consideration of legal reform, begin ning by observing that upon one question the noble and learned lord who had preceded him had done so much that nothing more remained to be done ; that upon an other question there was a commission already existing , for the purpose of making certain inquiries ; that upon a third branch it was important to obtain further informa tion before proceeding to legislate • and the noble and learned lord at last arrived at the conclusion that the amount of legislative progress in the matter of legal re form would, in the course of the present session, be of the slightest possible description. In point of fact, the noble lord stated that he had taken upon himself, apart from legislation, a task of very considerable importance and duration—a task which he confessed he had taken up in a romantic sort of enthusiasm. (A laugh.) He could only say, he sincerely hoped the noble and learned lord might have life and health to carry into effect the great object which he wished to accomplish ; and if he should be spared to carry out his intentions, he certainly would be blessed with a longer life than that generally allotted to man. (A. laugh.) So far as ' legislation was concerned, ,the noble and learned lord had confined himself to the reintroduction of a measure which had been introduced for the last 20 years, for the registration of assurances, which was rejected last year, and rejected in the previous year, by the House of. Co mmons, and with regard to which the noble and learned lord, in the course of the present session, had introduced one important modification, which appeared to him (the Earl of Derby) to be contradictory to the main principle of the bill—the main principle of the bill being to pro vide for the publicity of registration, but the objects of the amendment being to enable parties to keep their deeds secret. The bill which had been previously re jected would probably again meet the same fate. The statement made by his noble and learned friend the late Lord Chancellor had shaken his confidence in the prac ticability and desirability of the measure, and it was probable that it might not undeservedly meet the same fate as the bill of last year, and consequently the amount of legal reform in the present session would be nil. (Hear, hear.) In the other house of Parliament the estimates had been passed for the naval and military' services of the country, founded upon the amount of force laid down by the late Government, and to which he was happy to find the present Government had taken no exception. Beyond that, there had been introduced into the House of Commons.a bill for enabling persons of the Jewish persuasion to sit in Parliament. That bill had formerly been rejected by the House of Lords, and he trusted their lordships would reject it again. (Hear, hear.) In that respect, again, the amount of legislation would be absolutely nil. (Hear, hear.) Another bill had been introduced, to which he felt the strongest objection, because he thought it interfered most unjustly and unconstitutionally with the provision for the Protestant clergy in Canada. These measures completed the whole progress of the legislation of the Government. Their lordships had been told that, in the course of the session, the noble lord the leader of the House of Commons would inform the house what course the Government intended to pursue upon the great sub ject of education. The Reform Bill, to which the public attention had been directed, it was announced would not be brought forward in the course of the present session ; and with regard to the education question, the noble lord had intimated that it was not his intention to bring for wrrd any extensive or comprehensive scheme. They had been told, and he hoped erroneously, or at least he trusted the Government would reconsider the question — they had been told that it was the intention of the Government, during the Tresent session, permanently to legislate on the affairs of India. That was all that had been announced on the part of the Govern ment up to the present time. If the Government contemplated the introduction of any other mea sures he thought the time had arrived, now that they were about to adjourn for the holidays, when the houses of Parliament ought to be informed as to the nature of the business to which their attention was likely to be directed. (Hear, hear.) He was anxious that the old system should not be followed, under which bills were brought up at a late period, and often without previous notice—their lordships being kept waiting for four or five months, and then being called upon to legislate on sub jects of great importance at the end of a session when very few peers were present. If the Government in tended to bring forward no measures of importance, let them say so at once. If it was their intention to bring forward measures of importance let them be brought forward without delay. Let their lonhips have a fair share of business throughout the session, and let it not be huddled together into a short period at the end of the session. (Hear, hear.) If this suggestion was import ant with regard to anything it was particularly so with regard to the affairs of India. The affairs of that country were now beginning to excite the greatest in terest. The noble earl had announced his intention to permanently legislate upon a portion of the question during the present session. If the noble earl had deter mined so to legislate he must have determined so to legislate without waiting for, and consequently without being influenced by, the examination and report of the twhu timeohr uiee's which committee appointed to consider the subject, and there was, therefore, no reason why the legislation on that part of the subject on which the Government had made up their minds should not be placed before Parliament with the least possible delay. He was anxious to ascer tain what measures the Government intended to submit to Parliament, and. he was anxious to receive an assur ance from the noble earl that whatever measure it might be his intention to propose should be placed before their lordships in due time, and thus avoid the serious evils of procrastination until within the last two or three weeks of the close of the session of Parliament. (Hear.) The Earl of ABERDEEN was surprised at the in quiry of the noble earl, considering it altogether unusual to demand such information. He could assure the noble earl that he need be under no apprehension that their lordships likelyw ou d t n o o th occupya v e share o o f f the the business Leg iel a . that was that measures would be introduced in such was his intention to as to afford opportunities . for that full discussion did not think himself called upon, after noble earl desired.lt ampleand a notice before introducing subjects into the ontrtpheensutbhjaetctsuaht subject te he e res w en a t s moment. ( give the The noble earl had alluded to the ahl e subjecttoa stateud h thatoef house a notice would that measurepromei contemplated enHtteeoms hear.) ete m aeadtr o i ri n e o n the h be y fi gt r iti s hm t eedaty Government.th e consider that Theireti n o matter, tot t re h dr e : ven of the introduction of the ships would have am p le u off r et e hr s de wei their orf for rd i s n thh t i rpeoisr consideration. With resp ect to, house, full time would in a d an u d ce . d g i e n n t e o ra t l h ly e H s p o e u a s k e i n o g f th e observation of the bull ness beyond the 'Cwetch ll ere'v ca heen se r s etar be eia s a t u f sithe days o n which noble day a as thear l House relative of fo Commons,t h he lordships meeting ght s state e t the same was not intended to enter on any legal proceedings, and giving noti ce o certain business would be proceeded ) The motion was then agreed to, andwith. ( theirH adjourned till the 4th of April. eloarrdships HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTE RDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. The following bills were read a second time :—Bays water, Paddington, and Holborn Bridge Railway ; Monmouthshire Railway and Canal. HULL ELECTION. Mr. LABOUCHERE gave -notice that on Tuesday, the sth of April, he should move for an address to the Crown for a commission to inquire into the state of the represen tation of the borough of Hull. NORWICH ELECTION PETITION. .. - - Mr.. T. DUNCOMBE; gavo notice that on the sth of April, he should call the attention of the house to the report of the select e-intuittee on the Norwich election petition, and move that the resolution of the house on the 14th of February last, for discharging that,petition, be re landed. AUSTRALIAN MAIL SERVICE. Lord JOCELYN gave notice that on Monday, the 4th of April, he should move for copies of certain contracts and negotiations entered into by the Government with respect to the Australian mail service. CLITHEROE ELECTION. Mr. M. GASKELL gave notice that on Tuesday, the sth April, he should move for an address to the Crown for a commission to inquire into the representation of the bo rough of Clitheroe. TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that, on Thursday, the 14th April, he - would bring on a motion relative to the taxes on knowledge. Mr. V. SMITH gave notice th a t, on Thursday, CAMBRIDGE ELECTION. April, he should move for an add ress t o the Crown for a the 7th commission to inquire into the state of the representation of the borough of Cambridge. MALDON ELECTION. Lord R. GROSVENOR gave notice that, on Tuesday, the sth of April, he should move for an address to the Crown to issue a commission to inquire as to corrupt prac tices alleged to exist in the borough of Leeds. EDUCATION. Lord J. RUSSELL gavo notice that, on Monday, the 4th of April, he should state the intentions of the Govern ment on the subject of education in England and Wales. THE BUDGET. - Lord J. RUSSELL also said that, on Monday, the 4th of April, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state on what day—and it would be an early day—he intended to make his financial statement to the house. THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE. Mr. EWART gate notice that, when the estimates on the civil service were brought on, he should call the at tention of the house to the propriety of establishing examinations of candidates for the diplomatic service. The hon. member also moved for " A return of the quan tity of foreign butter destroyed in bond in different ports of the United Kingdom in each year since the year 1844, with the dates of the several periods at which such de struction took place, and the quantity destroyed at each period (in continuation of Parliamentary paper, No. 185, of Session 1849)." Agreed to. CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. Mr. DEEDES gave notice that shortly after Easter he should ask for leave to bring in a bill to amend the exist ing laws for preventing cruelty to animals. The hon. gentleman also moved " That Parliamentary Paper, No. 678, of Session 1851 (being a copy of Mr. J. Walker's re port of the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty in re ference to the state of Ramsgate harbour during the years 1850-51) be reprinted." Agreed to. THE INCOME TAX. Sir R. INGLIS asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the event of the continuance of the income tax, to con sider the expediency of excluding a certain sum in all in comes, instead of exempting a certain amount of income from ,the operation of such tax. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, at a time when the income tax was about to be renewed, it was clearly the duty of the Government to take into their con sideration all the particular provisions of the last act which were deemed objectionable. He had not the slightest hesi tation in giving a pledge to his hon. friend that the point he had suggested would be carefully considered ; but his hon. friend would not understand that by so saying he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had come to any distinct de cision on the subject. SELF-ACTING RAILWAY BREAKS. - - •- - Mr. MILES asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Inspector of Railways, appointed by Govern ment, had made any report of a mode of preventing acci dents by means of self-acting breaks, at present on trial on the South-Western Railway ? Mr. CARDWELL said there had been no reference to any Inspector of Railways to report specially on this sub ject. _ _ THE INSURRECTION IN LOMBARDY. Mr. BLACKETT asked Lord J. Russell, whether her Majesty's Government would have any objection, in the interest of the Government and House of Austria, and that of the general peace of Europe, to use their friendly offices with the Court of Vienna, in the hope of procuring some mitigation of the severe penal measures being enforced against Austria subjects in Lombardy? Lord J. RUSSELL—With respect to the measures to which the hon. gentleman has called my attention, I think his question has reference to three subjects. The first is with regard to capital punishments resorted to in Lom bardy, in the cases of persons believed to have been en gaged in a conspiracy. Upon that subject, I have nothing whatever to say, nor has any representation been made, or is intended to be made, by her Majesty's Government. With respect to the second question, the expulsion of cer tain persons—a great number of persons—belonging to one of the cantons in Switzerland from Lombardy, it certainly seems a very hard measure, and I know not what has been the justification of it. It has of course caused considerable excitement in Switzerland, and very great distress to those poor persons who have been the objects of it. I know not, however, that it is a subject on which her Majesty's Go vernment ought to interfere in any way. With regard to the third point, it is one on which the Sardinian Govern ment has communicated with her Majesty's Government, and upon which I trust there will be some measures taken by the Austrian Government which will make their pro ceedings more consonant to the general law of justice than at present appears to be the case. (Hear, hear.) The facts so far as I know them, and as they have been stated to her Majesty's Government by the Government of Sardinia, are these. After the insurrection in Lombardy, and the war that took place in 1848, there were a number of persons belonging to Lombardy who were permitted by the Aus trian Government to have letters which freed them from their subjection to Austria—letters of denaturalisation—and they were allowed to settle in Piedmont, where they ob tained letters of naturalisation. There was a decree in 1851 with respect to another class of persons, who were stated to have, left Lombardy, and whose property must have been liable to be seized ; but the Austrian Govern ment decreed that their property should not be liable to sequestration, and they were put in as favourable a con dition as those persons who were allowed to leave the coun try and be denaturalised in 1848. When the attempt was made at Milan, very lately, to overpower the Austrian gar rison there, and by means which excited a general abhor rence—to kill the soldiers who were in possession of the fortified posts—it appears the people to whom I have alluded, and who were settled at Piedmont, expressed general indignation at the attempt thus made, which merely resulted in useless bloodshed, and could not but be injurious to the quiet and tranquillity of the people of Lombardy. The Austrian Governor of Milan put forth a new decree, in which it was stated that this insurrection was the act of a very few individuals, and that the population generally were averse to the conduct of those individuals ; but soon afterwards there appeared a decree, signed by Marshal Radetzky, which placed under sequestration the property of a large class of persons— namely, those who had left Lombardy with the consent of the Austrian Government, and those who came under the decree of 1851. The Sardinian Government very naturally looked on that decree as a very unjust and iniquitous one ; they said that it sequestrated the property of men who were Sardinian subjects, they considered it was contrary to the treaty between Austria and Sardinia, and they made strong representations at Vienna on the subject. They also made similar representations to her Majesty's Govern ment on the subject, and they asked her Majesty's Govern ment to support them. Her Majesty's Government have acceded to their request—(hear, hear)—and Lord Claren don has written to her Majesty's minister at Vienna, to express the sense which this Government cannot but en tertain with regard to conduct for which I do not know that there is any precedent, and which appears to have no justification. (Cheers.) I must say, however, that we have heard very lately that the intention of the Austrian Government is not to continue the sequestration, as was at first intended, to the cases of all those persons, but to make inquiry whether or not any, and what number of them, had any part in the insurrection at Milan. It is their in tention to take off this sequestration, except from the pro perty of those who, on information received, in some way or other assisted and supported that insurrection. Of course, if that measure be thus modified, it will boar a dif ferent character, and the 'Austrian Government will pro ceed in due course of law to show that their suspicions and acts with regard to individuals are justified. I can only say, therefore, that I trust that this measure, which ap pears to be an act towards Sardinia of a most unfriendly nature, and unjust towards individuals, will not be perse vered in in the shape in which it was first proposed. LIBERATION OF THE MADIAI. Lord JOHN RUSSELL concluded by saying : As the honourable gentleman has asked me this question, I wish to make a statement on another subject, which has excited considerable interest in this country, and indeed through out the whole of Christendom. It is stated that a tele graphic message has been received to-day, to the effect that the Grand Duke of Tuscany has liberated the Madiai —(loud cheers)—and that they have embarked at Leghorn and lett Tuscany. INTRAMURAL INTERMENTS. Mr. WHALLEY wished to know whether and what steps had been taken on the part of the Government, to put in operation the act of last session for closing burial grounds in the metropolis ; and whether any measure was in contemplation for correcting the evils of intramural in terment throughout the country ? Lord PALMERSTON stated that the Government felt deeply impressed with the importance of carrying into effect the act of last year, and he had gi ven i ns t ruc ti o ns under which one member of the Board of Health was in specting one after another all the graveyards in the metro polis, and in proportion as these reports had been received he had taken the necessary steps for obtaining an order in ) With respect to council for shutting the graveyards which were reported her Majesty' s estrB Government to be unfit for fOrther use. (Hear , hear.) He expected that in a very short time all the graveyards in the metro polisthe graveyards wou l d b i c n l o t s e h d. (lie e did not possess the same powers over them as over those of the metropolis, and it would be a subject of consideration country, ar whether or not in the present session the G overnmen t would apply to Parliament for similar powers. (Hear hear.) THE KAFIR WAR. with Australia by packet was irregular, tardy, and not per fect. (Hear.) All he could say was, that the whole question of the_packet service was now under consideration, and those contracts which could be sustained would be rigidly enforced; and those which could not be maintained would be abrogated with the least possible delay. (Hear.) SIR JAMES BROOKE. Mr. DRUMMOND said, that as a most infamous slander had been propagated against Sir J. Brooke, under the title of " Specimens of Sir James Brooke's Veracity," he wished to know whether the Government would consent to lay be fore the house a copy of the last dispatch of the Secretary for Foreigh Affairs to Sir J. Brooke, with the answer of Sir J. Brooke thereto ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to say that he would consider the subject, and give the hon, member an answer in the course of the evening. THE GOVERNMENT OF KEROWLEE. In reply to a question put by Mr. OTWAY. Sir C. WOOD stated that he had been incorrectly re ported in his answer to the hon. member on Thursday, and had been made to give an answer directly the reverse of truth. What he stated was, that the question had been referred home for the decision of the home Government, and that the home Government had decided to sanction the mission to the government of Kerowlee of the young man adopted by the late rajah. TURKEY. Lord STANLEY wished to know if the Government had received any information with respect to statements made in the public journals to the effect that the resignation of Fuad Effendi had been accepted by the Sultan, and that a dispatch had been forwarded by the British charge-d'affaires to the admiral of the fleet in the Mediterranean, requesting him to send up a portion of the fleet now in the Mediter ranean to anchor in the Archipelago. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that telographio informa tion had reached the Foreign-office, stating that such a request had been made by the British charge d'affaires at Constantinople to the admiral ' • but no dispatch had been received either from Colonel Rose, or the admiral com manding the fleet, corroborating that report. COLONIAL COPPER COINAGE. Mr. WILSON took the opportunity of correcting a statement which he had made the previous evening, with respect to the subject of copper coinage in the colony of South Australia. He had said that arrangements had been entered into for coining five tons ; he should have said five hundred tons of copper. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill, and on the first clause being proposed, Sir J. PAKINGTON said that it was not his intention to offer any opposition to any of the clauses in the bill until he saw the shape which the bill would ultimately assume after the amendments to be proposed by the noble lord the member for the city of London had been disposed of. He wished, however; to call attention to a discrepancy which appeared to him to exist between the words of the first clause of the bill and some expressions made use of by the right hon. gentleman (Sir W. Molesworth) the First Com missioner of tWorks, upon the occasion of the second read ing of the bill. The right hon. gentleman gave to the house a long tale of the history of this subject in Canada, and assumed with some degree of self-complacency that there were few, if any, hon. members in the house, beside him self, who knew anything upon the subject. It was, there fore, incumbent upon the right hon. gentleman to be cor rect in the statements which he made. Towards the close of his speech he said—" It should be remembered that if this bill passes, the Canadian Legislature will only acquire the same power over Protestant endowments as it now has over Roman Catholic endowments." He (Sir J. Pakington) was under the impression that the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used similar language. Now, he was under the impression that the right hon. gentleman (Sir W. Molesworth) was wholly in error in making that statement to which he had referred. Under the act of 1791 no act of the Legislature of Canada affecting Protestant or Roman Catholic endowments could become law until it had been sent home to the Imperial Government, and had been laid for thirty days on the table of both Houses of Parlia ment, previous to receiving the royal assent. Under the bill, as it now stood, it would be competent for the Gover nor-General of Canada to give the royal assent at once to any bill passed by the Canadian Legislature without com plying with the securities to which he had referred. He wished to know whether it was intended that these securi ties to the Protestant property should be taken away, be cause, if so, the house ought not to be told that by this bill the Roman Catholic and Protestant endowments would hereafter be placed upon the same footing. If, on the other hand, it was intended to retain that security, he thought such intention ought to be more clearly defined than it was in the first section of the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had no hesitation in stating clearly the intentions of her Majesty's Government. It was intended that any act passed by the Legislature of Canada, and duly assented to by the Crown, should not be subject those provisions contained in former acts of Par liament, by which the bills were required to remain, for thirty days on the table of the house, and in the event of an address from either house of Parliament were not to become law. It was intended most decidedly that such regulations should not continue with respect to the dis posal of the clergy reserves of Canada. There was some difficulty in finding phrases which would clearly express that intention in the bill ; but if any words more clear than those which had been adopted should be suggested, he would offer no opposition to their insertion. Mr. WALPOLE said that the principle on which the Government was proceeding was, that the Canadian Legis lature should have full dominion over all the lands of the clergy reserves lying within the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. He wished to know whether - it was in tended that any control whatever was to remain in the Crown? Supposing the Canadian Legislature appropriated those reserves to any purpose mentioned in the 3d and 4th Vict. to entirely secular purposes, such as railways or canals, was it, or was it not, the intention of the Govern ment that an effective control should be reserved in the person of the Crown, or was it to be merely a nominal control ? He was anxious to obtain a clear explanation upon this point, as he perceived by the second clause of the bill it would be in the power of the Canadian Parlia ment to deal with the proceeds of any of the land reserves sold since 1791, which wore now invested in this country, and were in no part of the local territory of Canada at this moment. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that considerable difficulty had presented itself in the working of tho clauses of the bill. Ho was of opinion, however, that, looking to the provisions of the 31 Geo. 111., and also those of the 3 and 4 Viet., c. 35, the bill as at present framed would be sufficient to exclude the operation of the 42d section of the 31 Geo. 111. It might, however, be advisable, in bringing up the report, to introduce some words which would make the intentions of the Government more clear, if it should be considered that the bill as it now stood was not suffi- Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what news of the Kafir war had been received by the Sydney packet, and whether orders in council, com pleting the Cape constitution, and settling the limits and defences of the colony, had been sent out by the mail lately dispatched, and if so, how soon copies of such orders might be laid before the house? Mr. P. PEEL stated that the packet which touched at the Cape had brought no dispatches from General Cath cart. He had stated on a former occasion that he had reason to . believe that the ordinances which had passed the Legislative Council at the Cape, with respect to the con stitution and the settlement of the civil list, and which had been transmitted to this country for the assent of the Crown, would be sent to the colony in the course of the present month, and he was now enabled to state that these ordinances had been sent back on the 14th inst. With re spect to the latter part of the question, no order in council had been issued respecting the limits and defences of the colony. AUSTRALIAN MAIL PACKET SERVICE. Mr. DUNDAS wished to know whether her Majesty's Government proposed to take any steps to arrange Ci a l l i t e e n rn ta a l te C m om on p t a h ny l sin lieu of permitting monthly mail to .Australia—one that might b e d epen d e d r s i , lsa w no li dn o had proved their utt er Inca on, regular, expeditious , and certain, such as that conveyed who car :contract they had und er t a k en , con tinuing to attempt to carry mails the delivery of which they were instrumental only in delaying. Sir J. GRAHAM said that he thought it would be rash o r that of the Government, to advi se th e adop tion ef p a a a /plan which might be depended upon to make commu nication commu ca tion with Australia regular, expeditious, and certain." The experience which he had had at the Ad miralty had led him to believe that the comrawikation made by her Majesty's Onvernment ? Thertiltir was purely a measure of religious equality, and that it sought to place Protestant endowments upon the same footing as Roman Catholic endowments. But he (Lord J. Manners) maintained, and it was as clear as the sun light, that, so far from these endown'ents being upon the same footing, from the moment this bill became law in its present shape the stringent clause ip the original act of 1791, and re enacted in that of 1840, which related to the whole reli gious property belonging to any Church or communion in Canada, would be retained only for Roman Catholic en dowments in that country. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord read the clause at length, and again asserted that the reli gious endowments of tjte Church of Rome, would, after the passing of the bill, be guarded by provisions which were expressly repealed so far as concerned the clergy reserves of Canada. Now he put it to any gentlemen who wished to carry out what he conceived to be a most melanchol, and disastrous policy—that of leaving the ecclesiastical en dowments of all religious communions, without favour or regard to their religious tenets, to the unlimited control of the Canadian legislature—whether this was acting upon the principle of equality ? The right hon. baronet the Chief Commissioner of Works laid it down in such distinct terms that there could be no doubt -upon the subject, that the Roman Catholic endowments were to be upon the same footing as the clergy reserves ; for he said, " there was no statutory provision preventing the legislature of Canada from dealing with this property in any. manner they might think proper." Then would the right hon. baronet tell him what force attached to the 42d section of of the act of 1840 ? Had he, by his ipse dixit, repealed the legal effect of that remarkable provision ? Could he point out any statute subsequent to 1840 which abrogated or di minished the force of that provision ?. If he could not, he (Lord J. Manners) would ask the right hon. baronet for an explanation of the extremely determined manner in which he vindicated the bill, whilst there was no statutory provision whatever to prevent the Canadian Legislature from dealing in any manner they thought proper with the endowments of the Roman Catholic Church ? If the right hon. baronet meant to say that the safeguard of the 42d section in the act of 1830 was no safeguard at all, then why not give the clergy reserves of Canada the same pro tection as the endowments of the Church of Rome ? At any rate, let not the liberal members of that Church -above all, lot not the Roman Catholic members of the house, be deluded into the belief that in passing this bill they were passing one which, as the right hon. baronet said, was based - thr tiles of , N3lioi‘- - -nor 'aid, was bast. . upon e principles of religious eq tity. Mr. PEEL said that, as the noble lord had pointedly re ferred to him, he would trouble the house with on or two observations. He had stated when he introduced the bill that the effect of it would be to give the colonial legisla ture of Canada power to dispose of the lands and to alter the appropriations made under the act of 1840 ; and that in giving the local legislature this power they were doing no more than had already been done with regard to the Roman Catholic endowments in Lower Canada. He also quoted an extract from the constitutional act of 1791, showing that the legislature had power to alter the dues which the people were legally bound to pay to the priests of that persuasion. The noble lorl, however, had not noticed this point ; his argument had rather been directed to the manner in which restrictions had been exercised by the Crown upon the power of the local legislature. This point had been considered by her Majesty's Government, and they were of opinion that restrictions should not be placed upon the Crown's exercise of its right. That right would continue to be exercised, subject to the opinion of the Secretary of State. The noble lord contended that by this bill Protestant endowments were put upon a different foot ing to those of the Roman Catholics. The answer which he (Mr. Peel) had to make to that was, that the noble ford seemed to have forgotten what had been said• by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was incorrect to designate these reserves as a Protestant endow ment. They were so under the act of 1791; but under the act of 1840 the Roman Catholics were permitted to par ticipate in one half of the produce of the sales under that act. But even admitting the view of the noble lord, that the clergy reserves were substantially a Protestant endow ment, he could not see that the reservation of the thirty days' proviso would be any real advantage to the Church of England or to any other religious body interested in the fund, because it would give an appearance of support which would be perfectly delusive. At the same time, if it were thought that the Church of Rome really enjoyed an advan tage from both houses of Parliament being able to exercise a veto, and any hon. gentleman would bring forward a bill for the express purpose of repealing the 42d clause, as it was supposed to effect them, there would be no disposition on the part of her Majesty's Government to offer opposi tion to such a measure. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NAPIER contended that the language held by dif ferent members of the Government upon this question was not uniform, and that in consequence no two men out of doors could understand the exact point in discussion. On the 23d of March, 1840, Lord John Russell stated, in answer to a question for Sir Robert Peel, that there would be reserved to the two houses of Parliament the power given by the act of 1791, and for the Crown to refuse its assent. The right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Cambridge said it was only on that ground he could give his consent to the bill. When the bill of 1840 was introduced, it was not anticipated that the reserves would be disposed of by the local legislature. But it was important to get the question speedily settled ; the impe rial legislature therefore interposed its power, and made what was considered a final arrangement and compromise. Suppose that imperial arrangement should be broken up, and the power given to the colonial legislature, then the important point for the committee to find out was, the terms upon which the power was transferred to the local legislature. Now, what was proposed by the noble lord was totally different from the terms used by the honour able gentleman who introduced the bill, and from those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in supporting it, while it was totally different from what the noble lord said himself when he proposed the act for the union of the two pro vinces. The hon. gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies urged the house to accept the bill, on the ground of religious equality. The right hon. baronet who spoke on the second reading, and the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer supported it upon the same principle. These members of the Government said the bill was founded on religious equality ; but religious equality was not carried. out in its provisions. 'The fact was panted: out, and the Government turned round upon the opposition and said, We admit it is not religions equality ; but will you bring in another bill applicable to the endowments of the Roman Catholic Church.' The Government having committed spoliation on the Church of England, advised them to com mit spoliation on the Church of Rome, so as to place the pro perty of both Churches on the same footing. It was not a q uestion of the Church of Rome, but a question affecting the rights guaranteed by the Imperial Act of 1791, and he would never be a party to appropriating that which had been sanctioned by Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It was neither fair nor reasonable that the second reading should be obtained on ono assumption, and the bill passed through committee on another assumption. He wished the matter to be clearly understood between the Government and that side of the house, that the country might understand it. He did not expect the question to be got rid of by the con . . ciently explicit. • venient argument that it must be left to colonial - self-legis- Sir F. THESIGER said that, whatever might be the lation. There might be other rights superior to colonial effect of the clause as it now stood, the intention of the self-legislation, the rights of the Churches in Canada. Government was clearly that the Canadian Legislature (Hear, heir.) The act of 1791 was prospective. This act should have absolute power to deal with the clergy reserves was retrospective. The act of 1791 reserved imperial con and with the investments which had arisen from the pre- trol. This act substituted the mere will and pleasure of ceeds of their sale, without any of those securities which the Secretary of State. The act of 1791 was the funda were provided by the 42d section of the Act of Union, and mental act, and by the act of 1840 that control was ex her Majesty's Government would no doubt take care to in- pressly reserved. Upon all these grounds, therefore, he troduce words expressive of that intention. It was im- , called on the Government for explanation, that on the portant to ascertain what the intentions of the Govern- third reading the question might be plainly and dearly ment really were upon the whole subject. It had been brought before the house and the country. (Hear.) said that the effect of repealing the act of 1840 would be Lord J. RUSSELL thought there could not be much to bring things back to the state of things as they existed doubt about the principle of this bill. The hon. and learned in 1791. He contended, however, that such would not be gentleman who had just sat down, and gentlemen on the the effect of repealing the act of 1840. It was quite clear, other side, had said a great deal about the Roman Catholic upon turning to the 41st section of the act of 1794 and endowments and establishments. That was very much considering its provisions in connection with the provisions beside the question now before the committee ; and al-. of that act, that the lands set apart for the clergy reserves though the right honourable gentleman averred that he were set apart for clergy purposes. The act of 1791 was would not be put off by that answer, the question really intended to provide a permanent provision for the Pro- was, the self-government of the province of Canada. testant clergy ; but the Legislature of Canada was em- (Hear, hear.) The question with regard to Roman Catholic powelvd, as the population of the country increased, to endowments was chiefly a question arising before the act vary its provisions by leasing one-seventh of grants from of 1791, because the rights of the Roman Catholic Church the Crown lands for the clergy. But it was now proposed in Canada were acquired before that act; and if such a bill to take away the securities provided in that act of 1791; and had been introduced as that to which his honourable the house was told they were. lacing the Canadian Legis- friend had alluded, the question would rest upon a dif ture in the same position that they were in under that act, ferent state of things altogether. (Hear, hear.) The whereas in two most important particulars the provisions Protestant clergy reserves were first made by the act of of that act were positively violated. The bill was contrary 1791. They were created by act of Parliament at that to the opinions of the judges expressed in 1840, that the time, and the question was whether they would reserve Canadian Legislature had no power over the allotments, or not the power given by the act of 1791 to either inasmuch as it provided that the local Legislature should house of Parliament to prevent the consent of the i have absolutepower over the investments arising from the sale Crown being given to a colonial act. It was no of lands, and it took from the Imperial Legislature the seen- doubt a question of some importance, but it was not a rities provided by the act of 1791. Under all the circum- question of chief importance, with regard to this subject. stances, he was sure that when honourable members came Even in that respect, however, it was evidently the inten to consider the provisions of the bill in respect to these tion of the act of 1791 that the colonial legislature should important particulars, they would find it to be an inter- have in the first place the power to legislate—that they ference with vested interests and rights, and the most should be enabled by the 41st to legislate under certain re startling breath of faith ever committed or attempted to strictions imposed by the 42d section. But the question be committed by any legislature. (Hear, hear.) of much more importance vas really whether they were to Mr. ADDERLEY said the honourable and learned gen- allow the colonial legislature to legislate on that subject. tleman was totally mistaken when he said the object of the (Hear, hear.) These clergy reserves were accompanied present bill was to go back to the state of things which with provisions which certainly had not operated in a man existed in 1791. Nobody in their ;senses could ever have ner to induce any wish to maintain the act of 1791. They asserted such a thing. The object of the bill was to remove all knew that the clergy reserves had been a source of great to the colonial legislature that power of revision which was evil to the province. The lands reserved had been barren now possessed by the Imperial Parliament during a period of wheat, barren of barley, and barren of oats, but fruit of 30 days. At the same time he had no very clear idea ful of discontent, fruitful of strife, and fruitful of ill-luck of the effect of the first section, and he thought that the —(hear, hear)—a source of despondency to the cultivator, repeal of the 42d clause in the act of 1840 would be the often preventing roads being made, but a subject of hope simplest mode of attaining that which he conceived to be to every agitator in the colony. (Cheers.) Therefore, the object of the measure. As the bill stood he believed it there was nothing in the practical of that act, by which would keep alive that 42d clause; so that, if he were right they were created, to induce him to wish to maintain it. it would, after all, be nugatory. t (Hear.) But then there was certainly in that act of 1791 a Lord J. MANNERS said it had been made perfectly provision, to which he had alluded, that if any act were clear that the intention of the bill was to take away from made for the purpose of dealing with the reserves in the the clergy reserves in Canada that protection which they colony, for thirty days it should be laid before the two had hitherto enjoyed under the 42d clause in the act of houses of Parliament, and they should have the power to 1840. But it was said that the bill did no more with re- prevent its taking effect. What he said was, that that spect to the property of the Church of England than it did provision was inconsistent with the principle which the in relation to the religious endowments of the Church of Government had adopted, namely, that the colonies should Rome in Canada. Now he was anxious to obtain from have the power to legislate for themselves. (Hear, hear.) the legal advisers of her Majesty's Government a distinct And if the house meant to adopt that principle in its fair declaration of the law upon that proposition. He thought and full extent, they must omit that provision of the act this matter so important that he should take the liberty of of 1791, as they did remit the control now possessed by re ading the emphatic declaration of the honourable gentle- the Imperial Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It had been man the Under-Secretary for the Colonies whenlhe intro- urged by the right honourable gentleman, that his right ducod the bill, and the still more emphatic declaration of honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had the right honourable baronet the Chief Commissioner of argued this bill as if it proceeded upon the principle Works, in which both laid down the untenable position, of the act of 1791. (Hear.) His right honourable friend that this bill would place the property of the Church only meant, that inasmuch as the principle of the act of England in Canada upon precisely the same foot- of 1791 allowed legislation by the provisional Parliament, ing as the property of the Church of Rome. The and did not intend it with regard to that provision, to put some honourable gentleman 'Mr. Peel) said—" In the very that either house of Parliament might have the power constitutional act of 1791 this very provision was made of control. It was, therefore, he thought, abundantly clear which we now wish to adopt for these Protestant what were the intentions of the Government on this sub endowments. The 35th clause, after the declaration that ject. (Hear.) With respect to the particular framing of I have referred to, says, 'Be it enacted that the said de- the clause, it might be advisable, perhaps, daration shall remain and continue to be of full force and words with regard to the 37th and 38th sectionsof thisof that the people of w t h h ila e sl effect in each of the said two provinces of Upper C ana d a Union Act of 1840, to make the provision more dear than e and Lower Canada respectively, except in so far as th e it was at present. The principle which he understood said declaration, or any part thereof, shall be expressly approved by the house when the second reading reserves, to varied or repealed by any acts which may be passed by the was carried by so large a majority. w as , Legislative Council and the House of Assembly of the sa id Canada, as represented by the Crown and the 0 provinces respectively, or which may be assented to by of legislature, should have full power, re se • houses Tying the life her Majesty, or any of her successors, under the restric- interests of the present holders of the , clergy tobe aso u sound o d which priu. principle t tions hereafter p r ovided. Therefore, you see that the legislate on this subject. (Hear, hear. Roman Catholic endowment of tithes and dues, w hi c h the Government meant. That was the principle That Was what those of the Roman Catholic persuation are now bound to they would adhere. He believed i t t h pay to the clergy of that Church, may at any time be ciple, and upon that abrogated by an act of the colonial legislature ; and inas- (Cheers.) hey intended to proceed. much as all that we propose now to do, is to place the P ro - Mr. HENLEY said the Government testant endowment in Upper Canada on precisely the same support of this bill' on th e had rested their footing, I cannot see why the Roman Catholic members parties on the same footing, It was for the house to ace see gro und that it would p l all of the local legislature should be objected to because they whether that princi p le took part in a decision upon this subject. (Hear.) Upon with his r i g ht b on. was carried ou t or not. He concu rred friend (Mr. Napier) in believing that way and with Roman these grounds, then, I beg leave to introduce this bill." this bill would deal with Protestant foundations in one Now he asked the right hon. baronet the Chief Commis sioner of Works, and any legal gentleman upon either side only answer ur Catholic foundations in another. The of the house, whether on reading the bill they could say clergy as, " If you mean to rob the Roman Catholicl bill immediately." that, dealing as it did upon the face of it with the clergy friend had 'bring said i , a no a thin g should induce him t 4) commit G Hi s r ight o an . reserves, and the clergy reserves alone, it repealed the act of spoliation on the Roman Catholics because th e o- as venal:neat were about to perpetrate one on Go enactments of the 43d section in the act of 1840, so far the property of the Roman Catholic Church was con- body,(Hear, hear.) corned? If they could not say this from the words' of Considering and that was a very sound concernedprinciple. (gear, . eon. that clause, what was the meaning of the declarationsl the vast 1 +;— the Protestant amount of ability extraordinary that coo ww g this measure, itnot a little extrao was fliree - slaort - eTa - uses shOliTrEeio oliscurely.drawn that rtliis learned Attorney-General thought it might be necessary to introduce some provisions, though he did not tell them what those provisions were. The Government argued the measure on two grounds—that the Legislature of Canada would have power to deal with the clergy reserves, and that the bill would place all the different religious bodies on a footing of equality. If there was no inten, tion of mystifying the house, the Government might have given the colonial legislature full power, to deal with such a subject, in a plain, clear, and unequivocal manner ; but they did not see fit to do so. But granting that it did give the Canadian Legislature that power, he de nied that it secured religious equality, and he believed many votes were given upon that ground which would be withheld on the third reading. (Hear, hear.) The argu ment which had been used by the right hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that, having dealt with these en dowments by the act of 1840, it was proper to divert them, did seem to him almost unaccountable. The act of 1840 was quoted over and over again to show that they had varied the appropriation of these reserves, as if, having varied the appropriation, they could not be found fault with for altogether diverting them. He could not under stand that argument in 1835 and 1836 when it was applied to secularising Church property in this country. He pro tested against it then, and he should protest against it now. Mr. HUME was sorry to see so much opposition to a bill of so much importance. The noble lord had repeated his explanation of the intention of the bill, and no doubt could remain on the subject. It was to remove discontent, and to bring matters back to the period of 1791. (Hear, hear.) The people of Canada told the Government, and so did the legislative assembly, that if the objectionable clause in the bill of 1840 was removed, it would give general satisfac tion. (Hear, hear.)- The people of Canada were better judges of what would satisfy them than hon. gentlemen opposite. They said, if this were done, the Roman Catho lic endowments would be placed on an equal footing . (Hear.) It was so intend e d by th e act, and if it did not do so, something ought to be p u t i n t o i t to make the ques tion Clear. This bill, if passed, would give peace to Canada. He wished to give peace to Canada—to attach Canada to England—and this bill would do that. It was justice, as well as policy, to remove the known cause of dissatisfac tion ; and this measure would effect that purpose. He wag obliged to the noble lord, who he believed had taken the right means to redress the evils of former bad legislation, and he believed the bill would be as valuable to Canada as to this country. With regard to the Catholics, the bill left them in possession of all their rights. At present, land, if in the hands of Protestants, paid no tithe, but if in the hands of Catholics it was made liableito tithes. This bill would interfere with no vested rights, but would do much good, and he would Support it. Mr. LUCAS said no Irish representative need be under fear that this bill would interfere with Catholic endow ments. He had been much affected by the touching and earnest manner in which the right hon. gentlemen on the Opposition benches had expressed their apprehensions that Roman Catholic endowments would not only be affected in Canada, but in Ireland, if this bill passed. The right hon. and learned gentleman had declared that no conside ration would induce him to touch Roman Catholic endow ments, even though a robbery was perpetrated on Pro testant endowments. The right hon. gentleman had not always held the same opinions, for on the Maynooth ques tion he had voted for the repeal of that endowment. For his own part he would be sorry to trust Catholic endow ments to acts of Parliament ; he relied on .a far better se curity—the sense of right and justice of the people of th e country. (Hear.) He did not d es i re t o see Catholic inte rests in Canada protected by the 42d clause of the bill. He wished to see that clause repealed, and to see the Catholic endowments to rest on the sense of justice of the whole Canadian community. Mr. NAPIER hoped the committee would pardon him if he made one or two observations in answer to the very unexpected and bold attack made on him by the hon. member who had just sat down. ,(Hear.) The hon. mem ber had told them that he had neither the courage, the conscience, nor the prudonce to vote against the thotiou for going into committee on the Maynooth grant. He certainly had not the courage to vote against his conscience, aud, entertaining the opinions which he did, he had thought it more honest and upright to go into the lobby in favour of the motion, than to vote against it, or to absent himself, and so to evade the responsibility of a vote, and to create a doubt as to the opinions he held on the question. (Hear, hear.) He honestly entertained the opinions which he pro fessed on the question, and he should always act nrinfully and boldly in avowing his opinions ; endeavouring, as much as possible, in so doing to give offence to no man. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member had alluded to what he called the Catholic—but what he (Mr. Napier) called the Roman Catholic endowments in Canada, and had charged him with inconsistency in voting against the Maynooth grant, and in using the argument which he had done with reference to the Roman Catholic endowments in Canada. The house would recollect that he had .stated that a wide distinctiOn existed between these endowments and the Maynooth grant, and the distinction was generally assented to by the house. In stating his opinions he believed he had said nothing offensive to any man, and as he was guilty of no inconsistency, either in his conduct or in his argu ment, he would not submit in silence to be bullied and Wited in the way he had been by the honourable member. (Cheers.) Mr. J. MACGREGOR said he thought he had some knowledge of Canada, and he had no hesitation in saying that the rejection of this bill would create great discontent in that colony, and might be productive of fearful results. When the act of 1791 was passed, it was supposed that the population of the upper province would be Protestant. He wished to see the colony governed in the spirit of the act passed by the noble lord the member for the city of Lon don when he was Secretary for the Colonies in 1810. Mr. C. BRUCE said that he did not deny the advan tages which had accrued to Canada from the concession of self-government, Much had been said about the liberal way in which provision was made for religion in the United States ; but whatever might be the case in the old states, he had good authority for saying that in the new states in the west the want of sufficient means for religious pur poses was notorious, and that in no instance had a clergy ' man, however popular, been able to secure a maintenance for two years Consecutively. He had no objection to give to the Legislature of Canada the power to deal with the unappropriated reserves ; but he desired to respect those which had been appropriated, and the rights which had been created in connection with them. He admitted the benefits which had arisen from granting self-government to the colony. He admitted that Canada, instead of being in a state of discontent bordering on rebellion, was now one of the most loyal portions of her Majesty's dominions —that it enjoyed an extraordinary amount of prosperity, and that its population was rapidly increasing. He should, therefore, with considerable reluctance, vote against the passing of this bill ; but he must do so unless he found that existing interests were protected, and appopriated pro perty was secured. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PHILLIMORE complicated the right hon. and learned member for the University of Dnblin on his ability and that suavity of temper which made him the delight and ornament of the house, and hoped that the right hon. and learned gentleman would explain to him the distinc tion which he had taken between voting against a parlia mentary grant to Maynooth and voting in the way he had referred to with reference to Roman Catholic endowments in Canada. Mr. NEWDEGATE said he could very well understand the difference. The discussion on the motion of his hon. friend the member for North Warwickshire did not relate to the property potsessed by Maynooth, but to the yearly grant from the Consolidated Fund. With respect to the present bill, he wished the Government would tell him whether it would affect the property of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada in the same manner as it would affect the property of the Protestant Churches in that colony? 1115 did not advocate a system of retaliation, but that all sects of religionists should be treated alike. He wished, therefore, to ask whether the bill would ecreally affect the property, dues, and titles held by the Roman Catholic Church in the lower province and that property known as the clergy reserves ?_ Mr. SCULLY said that as far as he understood the 4uestion, he could inform the hon. member that the pro perty of the Roman Catholic Church in the lower and in the upper province was liable to be dealt with by the pro vincial legislature. So late as 1839 a most important question was raised with respect to the Roman Catholic endowment of St. Sulpice, in Montreal, and a bill actually passed the provincial legislature affecting that endowment, which was ono that amounted to about 40,0001. a year. The bill before them proposed to give the colonial legisla ture the power of dealing with the clergy reserves in the same way as they had the power of dealing with the Roman Catholic endowments. Without any further debate of the principle he should support the measure, and reserve any further observations he had to make till the third reading. Sir R. INGLIS said that when he rose half an hour ago, at the same time as his right hon. friend the member for the University of Dublin, it was not with any presump tuous intention of defending him from the attack which had been made upon him, for he knew what while no man so rarely attacked others, so no man was more capable of defending himself when attacked that his right hon. and learned friend. (Hear, hear.) He had risen for the pur pose of calling the attention of the house to that part o f the subject which related to the distinction which he con tended, existed between the condition in which the Chu rc h of Rome in Canada would be left by this bill, an d th e condition in which it would place the Protestant c h urc h es in that colony. The hon. member for Meath h a d t old n av t, o h n e d t e h d e , r was the bi 1 l this, that whereas or not. them that the legislature of Canada would b e at liberty to deal to-morrow, if it liked, with the property of of d C is hur tin c c h tio o n f , R h o e me co , by the existing state of the law—of two p ar ti es each 1,000 acres—the legislature of Can a d a cou ld deal ssesshedono! wit --- subject to the control not merely o f th e repre , sentat the Crown and legislature, but su bj ec t also to ive of the controly eith er hous e o f of the Crown, exercised on an a dd ress b Parliament in this country, w hil e the alteration of the Church property of pr restrictions to the re moved, and while that Church was to beotestants were tion of the bill to the tender mercies left by the opera lature, the Roman Catholic Chur. f the Canadian legis grants under those securities.whi c Was to enjoy all its the Protestant Churches. The ch had been provided for forgot to allude to that dist; hen• member for Meath rested upon it. The hon. lnction, yet the whole case had told the oppone n t s of th e Under measure, with great gravity, purpose_ of dealing with d introduce a measure for the Rome in the colon ' the property of the Church of leagues proposeA colon property the same way as he and his col of e Church England, such deal with the property o fth not meet with the opposition of th a pleasure would . ) He e Government. (Hear, bear. ad mired the gravity tleman. (Hear, hear.) But the objectors of that hon. gen to this measure had always. contended against the injustice of thep rinciple involved in it. As the hon. and learned member Jr the University of Dublin had said, you w ou ld no t cure one injustice by creating a right.anot another "Ahear, hear.)—and two wrongs could Catholics was no not make (Hear, h ear .) Sp o liation of the RomanP . r otestants. (Hear.) justification for a spoliation of the The qu es ti on wa s not one of creed, but of property — (hear, Asia act or acts of Parliament hear)-- an d whether a certain amo unt of property to certain in had Did had not given a certain gentlemen mean to contend that England informerlm hon.t e bad not the right to deal with the . olFrance when that property came into the poss ession of the Dings of England ? (Hear, hear.) He had not heard any d hon. member, learned or unlearned, against the original right of the Crown t o make the gra n ge t up and contend aga t_( hear, hear)—and he trusted he should neve r hear to h a rgument urged that the rights of property, to drab, or blue, or to black, should whether they belonged (Hear, hear.) It of a tyrant majority. was be at the mercy t o protect this property that a specific contract was entered into between this country and the provincial Legislature of Canada. The doctrine, however, now set up of self government, ent meant, in fact, separation. Such separati on might not take place in 1853 or 1851, but self-government meant nothing less than severance from the mother country. From the moment of such severance there would be an end of allegiance. It was because he believed our colonies formed part of the strength of the mother country, that he did not wish to see them independent of her, if the Cana dian Legislature were competent to deal with this property ' would they not be competent t o d ea l w i th the principle on which it wins granted : If they were en a bl e d t o chang e the