The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-05 00:00:00

reign half pay was diminished 6,3951. by casualties, and the abo lition of the agent for foreign half pay. The business would in future be transacted by the Paymaster-General. In the in-pen sioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham there was a diminution of -6,8531., owing to the fall in the price of provisions, and the economical arrangements of the Paymaster- g eneral. In the out-pensioners, there was an increase of 34,0001. necessarily arising out of the reduction in the regiments. In the Royal ,Military Asylum there was a reduction of 60001. The com passionate list remained the same as last year, but there was an increase exceeding 30001. in the widows' pension list. The re duced adjutants of local militia had been this year transferred to the general rfalf-pay estimates. There was an increase in the superannuated allowances of 3,2811. There was last year ten - veteran battalions ; there were but three in the present, and a -saving of 67,0001. in that department; but, as he had set out .41 . th saying, .putting the veteran battalions out of the question, there was a saving of 12,000 men, and 537,0001. (Mr. Hume said across the table, that he made it 540,000.) This great sav ing, as compared with last year, had been effected in the first class of estimates. The natural consequence of the plan of re duction must add, for the moment, to the retired allowances; but in effect there was a saving, as compared with last year, of 1-7th of the whole expenditure. The Committee would re collect, that the Finance Committee of 1817,0 ad estimated that at.this period, should peace continue, the estimates for the mi litary service of the country, exclusive of the militia and aug mentation of the half-pay; when the army of occupation, then -in France, was reduced, ought not to exceed 8,500,0001. When the half-pay of 2,600,0001. was added to the estimate of the Finance Committee, the. total change would be 8,760,0001. He had the satisfaction to hfform the Committee that the estimates 'Wire, in point of fact, considerably less than that sum.— The ordinaries were (speaking in round numbers) 6,106,0001.; "the extroaordinaries 700,0001., '(supposing the, bargain with the East India Company for the annual payment of two hundred thousand pounds • for the establishment in India to be completed); the Barracks in England, 121,6001.; Barracks -in Ireland, 122,8001.; the Commissariat in England, 334,6541.; and in Ireland, 109,2001. ; the total amount of the Expendi lure in these several Departments being about 7,500,0001., a sum less by 1,000,0001. than the Estimate of the Finance Com mittee in 1817. He hail already stated that this year the main total of saving, as the accounts now stood, was 12,000 men, and 537,0001. in the ordinaries. The savings in the Com missariat in England this year, amounted to 66,9291. ; in the Barracks, 15,9001.; and in the Extraordinaries, 100,0001.; mak ing a total saving of 720,6781. • but including 40,0001. for Irish Yeomanry, were it not for which the saving would be 760,0001., independent of the pending regulation with the East India Company. If the latter were now carried into effect, the saving would be 960,0001. in 'comparison with last year's estimate, putting out of the calculation the expense entailed by the dis turbances in Ireland. This was the general outline of his state merit respecting the Army Estiinates, and he should be ready .to affisrd any farther exvlanation. The Noble Lord then moved that there be allowed for his Majesty's land service, at home and abroad (excepting the Regiments employed in the territo rial possessions of the East India Company), 68,802 men, from .she 25th of December, 1821; to the 24th of December, 1822, both inclusive, being 365 days. ' Colonel DAVIES said that he never was disappointed with :any statement more than he was by that which thp. Noble Lord had just made. Notwithstanding the exulting manner in which he had announced the reductions that had been made, if he could shew that in all _of them a view had been had to pa tronage, the Noble Lord would not be entitled to the credit he would otherwise have deserved. In the first place, he had taken credit to himself for a greater amount of permanent . saving by 53,0001. than he was entitled to, not having taken into his calculation the amount of force then afloat on its way from India, which would become chargeable to this country 'from the moment it landed. Thus the estimates for the ensuing year, for the same number of regiments, would be 53,0001. more than in this. He could not agree with the Noble Lord - that the mode of reducing the number of the army by cons. panies instead of regiments, was the most economical. He con ,sidered it the most expensive. He refrained, however, from enter:ng upon points then, but would confine himself to the vote before - . the House. He was aware that in the amendment it was his intention to propose he should make a saciifice of principle to expediency; but he wished to propose a reduction of so small an amount, that no on e co u ld object to it. He .meant to ask for only -the reduction of four battalions, and of these he particularly pointed at the Staff Corps, 'and the Wag. .gon Train. The rest might well be spared from the Colonies, .There were 58,000 men for the Colonies, of which 15,000 on were employed in the Colonies, or whicli existed before 170. When he adverted to '1792, the House would recollect that the estimates were voted in the first .half year ; but when they were presented in the latter half of the year theyshewed a di minution of 6,000 men, which ought to be considered with re , t gard to all reference to that year. The force for the Colonies was then 13,000 men. But the new Colonies had caused an -enormous increase. The lonian Islands alone made an increase - of 4,000 men, merely 1.-ccause we gave them a bad Government instead of a ood one. The garrisons were too large at the Cape of Good !lope, at the Island of Ceylon, Malta, and the lonian ,Islands, in all of which reductions might be effected. As for the Waggon Train, the objections urged with reference to other regi ments would not hold withthat. • They were no more than wag -gOners attached to the army, and there would be no difficulty in raising such a corps, so long as there were persons of that descrip. Lien to be found in the country. He also proposed the reduction of the. Staff Corps. He did not wish that the officers should be reduced, but they might be transferred to the generel staff of the army. The reduction of that corps alone would be a saving of 24,5811. Another quarter in which he thought reduc tion might be accomplished was in the Second Majors. It was .known that there were two Majors to each Regiment, and there could be no qUestion that one would be quite sufficient •to do the duty of the two. The Honourable Member next ad verted to the expenditure of the Recruiting department of the Army. It actually cost more, according to the present system, to recruit an army of 68,000 men, than it had done for an army of 80,900. There must be profusion here, which he hoped would be explained. He wished to see all the paraphernalia ..of the existing system done away, in order to which it was necessary that each party should report at once to head -.quarters, without having the useless appointment of one - Officer over several parties, generally some hundred miles distant. He also observed that charges were made under the regimental heads of Expenses before joining, and un der the head of Recruiting Charges made for the same indi vidual. This looked very like a double charge for the same thing. He also wished to know the meaning of an item of 1,2001. charged as the amount of a year's pay for Officers wounded. As he could not conceive by what hazard, in these times, a man could be wounded in the King's service; lie con . fessed. he looked fbr some explanation on that point. The next thing he begged to call attention to was the riding establish ment at Pimlico. This was neither more nor less than a mi litary job ; for, whether the system taught there were good or bad, it must by this time have been fully impart_ ed to the whole of the cavalry. Three years ago persons had been sent from all the regiments, and had been a ll review ed by the Duke of York, and pronounced complete. He had no objection to - there being one Riding Master General, if they chose, who might visit the different regiments. That might be done foe 5001. a-year, instead of nearly 40001: The con sequence of his amendment would be, to reduce the expendi ture of the army to the amount of 176,0001. The reduction in 'men he should propose, would be 3,300. He hoped Honour able Members opposite would judge for themselves on these points, and no longer act with blind confidence in Ministers, who, they could not but see, had deceived them in their pro. mises of retrenchment. He believed, from their conduct the other night, that a new light had broken in upon them, and, that when a flagrant case was made out against Ministers, they would not give them their support. The situation of the coun try imperattveiy demanded further relief from taxation, and as it was their duty to demand it, he had no doubt they would continue to pursue the course they had so honourably begun. The Hon. Member, in conclusion, moved, That in the place of 63,802 men, be substituted 66,502 Lord PALMERSTON said, he could not too much admire with what ingenuity the Hon. and Gallant Member had shaped his course, in the difficult task he had to perform, so as not to clash with his friend. As they had, since the opening of the Session, been the strong advocates of Martial Law in Ireland, which would require an increase of military force, the Hon. and Gallant Member being debarred from attacking the num bers of the army at home, and not being willing to let the mat ter pass without making an attack, directed all his artillery at the Colonial force.—(Hear, hear !)—He (Lord Palmerston) had an impression on his mind that the Ilonourable Member, or his friends, had said last year that the force of the_Colonies was reduced as low as it could be ; and, notwithstanding the army had been reduced lower than was demanded by the Hon. Gentleman and his friends last year, he still called for further reduction. With regard to the proposed reduction in the latter part of 1792, spoken of by the Hon. Member, he ought .to know that they were never carried into effect as regarded the Colonies. Bttt even if they had been, the amount of for& for the same Colonies would be but 1672 over that year. That in cluded New South Wales, for which no one who knew the change that had taken place there since 1792 would think 500 men too much. The colonial force for the first half year of 1792 was 17,323. Now it was only 14,955, a reduction of upwards of 2000 upon the number for the first half year ; and looking to what had since passed, we ought, at least, to have garrisons in the same places equal to what they were then. The extent of reduction last year called for by the Honourable Gen tleman opposite, (Colonel Davies) and his friends was 10,000 men. His Majesty's Government had reduced 12,300 Men, and :the conduct pursued by the Hon. Member upon this convinced /him that this appetite for reducing increased with indulgence, „dot he immediately called fox a seduction of 5,300 men more than he had before asked.—(Hear !)—He had expected that he would, in consistency, have begged him torestore the odd num ber. This was so extraordinary, that he was sure the House would have no difficulty in making up their minds to reject the amendment .proposed with such marks of inconsistency upon it.—(Hear, hear!)—As to the mode of reduction which had been adopted, lie was satisfied that if any other step had been taken the saving would not have been so great. With re gard to the Hon Member's objection to the Staff Corps and Waggon Train; "he had so often defended them in that House thec he was ashamed to go over the ground again. The Staff Corps was a corps of science, attainment, and of education, wl could not be re-established if once broken, under, a con sith.....ule period of time. The Hon. Member admitted the pro priety of not losing sight of the Officers, but the men were all artificers and persons of education and attainment to a certain extent. The greatest part of them were employed on works where their presence saved a great waste of labour. The Ho nourable and Gallant Gentleman went to the second Majors of Regiments. The reduction of the whole of these, counting their half-pay, would not be a s a ving of mor e th a n 13 , 0001. The consequence of this would be, that the regiment:4 would not be so effective. It should also be considered that these appoint ments were the only doors to promotion for a large and most de serving class of the army—lie meant the Captains. To reduce one half of the majority of the army would be to carry despair amongst the whole rank of Captains—to inflict on that large class a. privation which should not be attached to length of service, viz. , . the removal of all chance of promotion.—(Hear, hear !)- , With regard to the Recruiting part of the Estimates, it was to be remembered that the charge for billeting, the payment of innkeepers and other expenses, comprised the regimental charges of expenses before the recruit joined. It did not include the charge for raising the recruit. That, in the whole, did not amount to 'more than nine or ten thou sa nd pounds, including bounty money, staff; and other incidental charges. The Gallant Member did not seem to understand fully the system of recruiting now practised. If there were one Officer for every party, the respective regiments would be proportionably less effective, and the expense be greater. By the gallant Member's plan, of each party. reporting direct with the Depot, if a party were in Northumberland, they must send their recruits to the Isle of Wight, supposing the Depot to be there, to be approved of, instead of the Officer of the District. Thus Would accrue the additional expense of tra velling. With regard to the charge for wounds, it was to cover any claim that might come in, by Officers coming from abroad, for wounds received long since, cases of which description frequently occurred. As to the Riding Establishment, that would be reduced still lower than it was at present. If they were to have a cavalry at all, it was necessary it should be well instructed in riding, or it had better be dismounted. . The greatest innconvenienee had been known to arise from diffe rent systems being in practice at the same time ; and as to the establishment being no longer necessary, the Hononr able Member was quite wrong. A Non-commissioned Officer could not go back to his regiment, and like a boy instructed in the Bell and Lancaster system of education, teach the rest of the regiment with that mathematical accuracy so requisite. to render it certain that the whole cavalry of the army should be practising the exact same system at the same time. It was absolutely necessary that the Officers and non-commissioned . Officers should appear there once a-year. lie really could not see that the House could consider that any case had been made out by the Honourable 'and Gallant Member, to induce them to agree to his amendment.—(Cheering.) Sir R. VIVIAN opposed the amendment. He was of opi nion that reduction i n the army had been carried as far as they possibly could. The army was now no more than a skeleton, and it was highly necessary it should be kept up as such. He was surprised to hear the Honourable Member op posite speak of the reduction of the Second Majors—a plan so detrimental to Captains. 'With regard to the increased allow ance which had been made to the Major-Generals, he begged to express his gratitude to his Majesty's Government for having granted that boon. Mr. HUME began by pointing out the curious predicament in which the gallant officer and his friends stood, who last year had supported the Ministers in condemning reduction, and this year declared their satisfaction that such reduction had taken place. What was the reason on which they justi fied this eharige ? The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last had stated, that the diminution of force in,the colonies was the cause whirls admitted of this seduction. BUt what was the fact ? Why, there had been almost no diminution of force in the colon'es between this year and last, and yet our army was to be redtice'd from 81,000 to 68,000 men. The for ces in the colonies last year were 28,300,and this year 27,900, and htscatise 400 mcu had been spared from the colonies, therefore the army Might with safety be reduced 12,300. 'l'hus inconsistent were the reasons which were adduced to justify an adherence to ministerial projects. The difference between the number of troops in our colonies last year and this, which amounted only to 400 men, was to be stated as a ground for being satisfied with"reduction to the amount of 12,300. He (Mr. Hume) allowed that the reason for being now satisfied with a military establishment of 68,000 men was as good as that for being satisfied last year with 31,000 — that is, there was no reason fur either, in the state of the co. lonics or the empire. The whole of the saving on the rote before the House was 330,000% He (Mr. Hume) did no know how the estimates were made out which formed the con parison between 1817 and the present yea;. -.; IheIN: (Palmerston's) did not agree with that of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), and neither with that of the committee of fi nance. The Noble Lord had accused his Hon. friends of being too prone to discontent, because, said he, they only asked a re.. duction of 10,000 men last year, and Ministers have reduced 12,3000,and still they are dissatisfied. Now theNobleLord should have done him (Mr. IL) the justice to remember, that he had made a motion for the reduction of 20,000 men, and that he bad been induced to withdraw it only by the pe►suasion of his Hun. .friends, who thought that a motion fur 10,000 was more likely to meet with success. He proposed to reduce the existing force by 20,000, leaving the numberof our army at 60,000, which he thought sulfic►ent for every purpose of security or defence. He had formerly gone hack to 1792, for a period of .comparison, and be could not help again pressing on the at tention of the Committee the necessity of following the example then left us. At that time, then, our military force, rank and•file, was 36,363 men, and including officers 45,000. Now, what was die reduced vote of this year ?-68,000,1n eluding 8,000 officers. We had then 36,000 rank and file. We had now 60,000. The marine corps then amounted to 8,000. Now it amounted to 15,000. The Noble Marquis (Londonderry) had lately stated that this corps was employed as a land force, and, consequently, might be added to the land force when comparing the numbers of the army at dif ferent periods. Here, therefore, there was an addition to our army of 7,000 turn over the marine corps of 1792. This was surely too much. We had nine or ten regiments locked up in the lonian Islands, which, with a better government of these islands, might be withdrawn. We had 12,000 men in the new Colonies, a-great portion of which might he reduced. In reckoning our military force at home, the militia, the con stitutional force of the country, had been strangely over looked by the Noble Lord. That force amounted to 63,000 men, and, together with the volunteers, cost the public be t►►ween 600,0001. and 600,n001. per annum, sufficient fur the pay of the rank and file of our army in 1792, exclusive of Ire land. The militia, the volunteer corps, the marines, and the artillery, were all additions to our military establishment, and ought to enable us to reduce the regular force in propor tion. These species of force were either useful or they were not. If they were, they ought to supply, as far as they went, the place of other troops; if they were not, then why incur a❑ expellee of half a million a year for their pay? All these troops, therefore, were to be added to the force of the regular army. And what was there in the circumstances of the country diffetent from 1792 to ren der such a military establishment necessary ? With the ex ception of the disturbances in Ireland, which had no political character, and could not be termed an insurrection, though attended with great cruelties and atrocities, he knew nothing. The disturbances of Ireland were then of a temporary nature, and 3,000 corps were quite sufficient. There were thus 60,000 rank and file, instead of 36,000, which would be sufficient for all purposes. There was room fora reduction of 40,000 men, instead of 3,300. The latter reduction was quite inadequate. A much more effectual reduction was required, and before he should sit down he would move a reduction of more men, by which a sum exceeding half a minims sterling would be saved, and that was a saving nut to be despised in the present state of the country. In 1794 the life, horse, and foot guards, had been 7,500. Last year they were upwards of 17,000 men. Here was a surplus of 10,000 men. Last year the Noble Lord bad argued that a large disposable force was required in the country for the purpose of relief. This year the word relief never escaped luau. Every one of the cavalry in the guards was equal i❑ expense to a junior clerk. With it view to eco nomy, he would say that the Government had discharged too many junior clerks. They should rather dispense with a few of the cavalry. The latter were for were parade and splen dour about the Monarch. The guards were placed as sen tries in this place and that place—at the West India Docks, and at the British Institution in Pall-mall. Ministers would have troops to protect the Arts and Sciences, though they were rather ruined by military protection. He would then, upon the whole number, propose a reduction of 10,000 men, which would make a total reduction within the last two years of only 19,000 men ; fur 3,000 which had been added were not to be taken into account as a reduction. When so much was sacrificed by every class in the cominuniiy, this was surely not too great a reduction in the army. Besides the direct saving which would arise from this reduction, there would he a collateral saving by rendering the extravagant staff which was now kept up unnecessary. The increased number of troops was the reason assigned for the extravagant staff: and therefore,when the number of wets should be reduceff,the staff, too, could be reduced. It was calculated that 33,0001. were re quired for every 1000 men. Every 10,000 men would, there.. fore, cost 330,0001. There would also be a large saving in corttingencies, extraordinaries, anti home staff. Altogether The saving from a reduction of 10,000 tarn would amount to 500,0001. The Nulls Lord said the forces in the Colonies were below the number iu 5792 already. Now he found a statement signed' Palruerston," and dated Feb. 160916, which stated tire faces in the Colonies at 13,502 mesa. The Noble Lord stated theta now at 14,000 torn. A reduction of 10,000 'men could be made, and - yet the marines, artillery, yeOmanry, and militia, would be left quite effective, and the country would still have - a superior military force to 1792. — In 1817, the Noble Lord had stated before the Finance Com mittee, that by brigading the men to the number of 800 in stead ofloo, as in 1792, a saving of 71,0001. had been made in every 8000 men. The Noble Lord had argued that, by this change, as much had been gained in expence as the additional pay had increased the expence, which was 84,0001. for eight thousand men. How could the Noble Lord reconcile this alle , ' ed.saving with the plan of saving which he n o w pro posed, by reducing the number again to 550? Why should -not one thousand men be the number at home, as it was abroad, and in India? By this means the whole amount of the additional staff would be saved. Last year the staff had been 660,0001. This was a loss of 200,0001. They would lose now near 200,0001. more. The reduction was therefore made in tire most expensive way. The amount of regimental guards, too, he supposed, was not affected by four hundred men in stead of eight hundred. Therefore, in this view, the - fewer regiments there were, the better. It was, no doubt, painful to break up old corps, but the Duke of York had in 1706 re duced 110 regiments to 94. If in time of war such a reduc tion in time number of regiments took place, was it proper to have 94 regiments now ? - The Americans had reduced their army altogether, and were husbanding their resources. Why then should we have five or six thousand men in Canada?-- He therefore snored, that 58,802 be substituted for 68,802 men. Colonel WOOD understood the Hon. Gentleman to have said. that a consiierableyortion of the- sums voted for the Staff was laid out on bands of music, instead of being ex pended in drilling the recruits. All he could. say to this was, that strict orders had beets given that the musical gentlemen attached to a corps should be restricted to one drummer to two companies, so that a regiment of ten companies would hare five (Immune, s belonging to it, or other musicians, for he believed they might play what instruments they liked. The band was the most difficult part of a regiment to keep in order, and there was no disposition to have all unnecessary number of musicians. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the disorders in Ireland as if they amounted merely to a little riot, Ile could only say that he should be very sorry to wit ness such riots in the country in which he lived. In this in stance the Hon. Gentleman took a view of the subject vers different from that taken of it by one of his Honourable Friends !rear him, who had thought it desirable that martial law should be proclaimed in Ireland, which would not have been recommended, to put down a riot. He proceeded to de fend the mode in which the reductions had been effected. The Hon. Gentleman had stated the Duke of York to hare reduced 110 regiments to 94, in 1796. But that very circum stance arose out of the inconveniences previously experienced from the reductions having been made on that principle which the Hon. Gentleman seemed disposed to prefer. New corps had been raised early in the war, and these, when brought into the field, had been found inefficient, It there fore became necessary to put two or three corps together. Now, should a war break out, by pouring recruits into the regiments that were kept, the old soldiers would make the new ones, and thus working on a good foundation, all would prove efficient. Sir J. NEWPORT said, be would not have risen to say any thing upon this question, bat for remarks made respecting the state of Irelarid, in which he could not concur His ear liest wish bad been to get an examination instituted into the state of Ireland, and a remedy applied to the evils which dis tressed that country. But there was a limit and a period to investigation as to other thinp, and Ireland was in that state when investigation could not be instituted, and when, not riot, but insurrection, required the strong arm of the law.— (Cheers from the ministerial side.) It was impossible fur him to regard as a riot what was an open insurrection, and a defi ancelof law and authority.—(Cheers from the ministerial side.) —The Government of Ireland had been most shamefully and scandalously deceived by taco who ought to have had correct information. He alluded to the information given respect ing Belfast and Mountratb. But there had been most dread ful outrages committed, and horrid assassinations. A Roman Catholic clergyman had been attacked, because he had from the altar recommended peace and good order. Could he doubt that this was a state requiring additional military force ? --(Cheers from the ministerial side.)—He trusted it.would pass away, but it would be by the vigorous execution of the law to put down violence. It would be imperious afterwards to look into the causes of the disturbances. He never would concur in thinking, that they ought not to be looked into and probed to the bottom. But, while insurrection prevailed, he hoped no Hon. Member. would seem for a moment to express any terms of mitigation.—(Cheers.)—Having always been the advocate of peace and examination, he was now obliged to say, that harmony must be first restored ; and then be would urge a thorough, complete. and radical investigation, and the application of a full, safe, and adequate remedy•—(Hear bear.) General GASCOIGNE said, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen compared the Estimates of 1792 with the present. They I should first inquire if that of 1792 was efficient. The next consideration was, the relative state of this country to the rest of Europe. The army was so much reduced in 1792, that in the following year it was supposed that there had been something culpable in the system of management. The con , sequence of it was, that a brigade sent into Holland in that year was taken for a battalion by the Austrian General. But were they now in the sante state with respect to Europe as they were in 1792 ? The war, in fact, could mot be yet con , sidered so completely terminated in all its effects, as to admit a reduction to the scale of 1792. He would not enter into the disNisaion now of what was passing in Ireland, particu larly as the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Newport) answered what had fallen from the Member for Aberdeen on the subject. In the present state of that country it would be most improvident to adopt the amendment. How did they know that there was a sufficient force in Ireland ? In 1797 there was between 30 and 60.000 there, and yet they were not sufficient to prevent the rebellion breaking out. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen thought the force there sufficient, but he should consider it highly imprudent for Ministers to reduce so far as would disable them from throwing in a further supply of troops if necessary. Government would incur a most serious responsibility if they were to act in this manlier. Was the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Home) so lost in pounds, shillings, and farthings, as to forget altogether the state of Europe ? Was it not evident to every person that the seeds of serious trouble existed in various parts of the Continent ? In the present state of things it was necessary to keep up a large military force. If a strong force were not kept up in Ireland, the Gentlemen of that country would not continue to reside there. Did the Hon. Gentleman think that he alone knew the amount of force necessary, that lie alone was an adequate judge of military matters ? Mr. WILMOT said, he would spew• that the reduction in the Colonies amounted last year to 4,535 men in place of 400, at which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) calculated ; 27,913 was the number stated for the peseta year by the Hon. Gentleman. In the Leeward island s there was a reduc tion of 370 men. If there were certain small increases of the force in some places, there was a decrease in others. In Malta there was a small increase, and at Van Dieman's Land, but there was more than a corresponding reduction at St. Helena and the Mauritius. In fact, the general decrease amounted to above four thousand men ; the increase at the Cape could not be viewed otherwise than as regarding the predatory hordes surrounding it ; and then there was no man who must nut consider the increase as absolutely necessary. As to Ceylon, fairly considering the area of that Colony, and the habits of its surrounding inhabitants, the force of 1,034 men was absolutely necessary to ensure its possession to Great Britain. Next, with respect to Malta and the lonian Islands, it was said the increase of price was only rendered necessary by misgovernment; but he pledged himself, on the proper occasion,to skew that such assertions were altogether formed in those delusions which the perusal of the public papers had induced many to believe as truths. Taking alto gether the mean rate of force in the colonies at the period of 1791, be contended they were now considerably lower, all the circumstances being taken into the account. Indeed there was no one conversant with those stations, who did not com plain of a want of sufficient military force. After weighing the statement he had made, he trusted the House would re ject with disdain the proposition for any further reduction.— (Cries of bear !)—The mere mechanical repetition of 10,000 wen should not induce them to agree to a resolution unfit to be pressed in the present condition of the country. Well had Mr. Burke said, the age of chivalry was gone, and that of calculation had resumed its place; and if Hon. Members wished to diminish the position of England with regard to that of Europe generally, they could not do better than vote for the proposed reduction. His own opinion, however, was widely different. .91 via pacem prefer bellum. He would not further occupy the time of the House, fur he was satis fied that with regard to the force for the colonies, no further reduction could take place.—(Hear, bear !) Mr. BENNE'rf was not so much alarmed by what bad fallen from the Hon. Gentleman as to be deterred front sup porting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. The public burdens must be diminished. He wished to preserve faith with the public creditor, but the public interest was of more importance to him, and when, consistently with t h e public interest, the public creditor could be paid, no longer he would say be would not pay. The present situation, he contended, was the natural consequence of a long course of misgovurn ment and oppression. The army ought to be reduced by ten thousand men, and, but for the state of Ireland, he should think twenty thousand would not be more than might b e spared. There was but one country in the world besides ! this, Turkey, that so mis-governed its subjects, as to make such a force necessary as it was now proposed to keep up in the United Kingdom. Captain O'GRADY lamented that the affairs of Ireland bad been improperly conducted. The military force of Ire land had been reduced too much. He was convinced the in surrection could not be put down by any thing but main fence, but, at the same time, he was persuaded that the dis content in Ireland proceeded from grievances which might be removed by the endeavour of Government. He was anxious to support the existing force of th e army, but in the Staff and Civil Department, he thought there might be consider able reductions. Mr. WARRE thought, that under all the circumstance.), the reduction of 10.000 'nen which took place last year was suffi cient, and that the best mode of proceeding would be, first to apply a cure to the existing evils, and then to reduce the army. Lord ALTHORP contended that the object of the Com mittee ought to be to reduce the expellee, as for as it could be done consistently with the safety of the country" He did not object to the anulunt intended for Ireland in the state which that country presented, but he was at a loss to con ceive why in England we should keep up a greater number of centinels than in 1792, and the number of sentinels se quired was the argument, insisted on by a Gallant Officer, 'in opposition to any further reduction. He (Lot d Alt burp) was of opinion that, in the cavalry regiments, a reduction of 3,000 might he made, and in the Guards, of 2,000, and he agreed with the Honourable Member for Shrewsbniy, that 10,000 might be reduced on the foreign stations with safety to the country. . . Mr. CALCRAFT said, that the reduction of the army be ing brought to the point for which he had contended during the last six years, he could see nothing in the sit ation of the country, either at home or abroad, to require any farther reduction. If he did not think so, there was no man more willing than he should he, from constitutional and economi cal reasons, to support the cause of reductions. So far from conceiving the strength of the army too great at present, he did not know from what part of this country a disposable'force could be sent to Ireland if occasion required it. His Hon Friend had talked of the inability of the country to pay the troops; but could any man say that this was not an exagge rated opinion ?—(Hear, hear.)—The ground onavhich he sup ported the presentvotu was, that the safety of,the country required it ; but if Ireland was tranquillizrd by wise and sa lutary measures, then, indeed, it would he reasonable. to 'e duce the army. He agreed with the Noble Lord that all re ductions should be made by companies, and not by regiments, in order that we might he enabled to raise an army mote readily in any case of emergency, It was the worst economy in the world to place our armies in a state which would ren der it difficult to build them up - again. Fur these reasons be would must willingly vote for the amount required at present. Colonel HARDINGE contended for the necessity of keep ing up, in time of peace, a force necessary to recruit Our Army in time of war, and insisted particularly on the expediency of making such a provision with I espect to the waggon-train, the greatest military authority in the country having given a decided opinion to the same effect. Sir H. FERGUSSON expressed his conviction that the atro cities committed in Ireland ought to be put down by a mili tary force, and he would prefer the employment of the regu lar troops to that of the resident yeomanry and volunteers, as being less under the influence of local prejudices. He would, however, support the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) on the ground of the necessity of limiting our expellees. With respect to our foreign possessions, all he should say was this, that we ought to look at home first, and if we found that we could not beep our Colonies but at an ex pence which the country could not bear, we ought to give them up altogether. As to the.islandni of the West Indies, he could not help thinking that they would be better de fended by a few ships than by a number of battalions.—(Hear!) The questions bring loudly called for, the Committee di sided on Mr. Humes Amendment— For the Amendment 5l Against it Majority A second division then occurred on the Amendment of Co. lone! Davies, for the reduction of 3,300 men. For the Amendment.... - Against it 184 Majority Lord PALMERSTON next proposed that the sum of 2,C46,2991. 16s. 7d. he granted to his Majesty for the pay of the land forces, which was ag►eed to. Mr. HUME objected to proceeding upon the next resolu tion, in consequence of the lateness of the hour, and it was not moved. Mr. BROGDEN left the Chair, the House resumed, and the report was ordered to be received this day. Mr. BERNAL asked the .Noble Lord what was to be the future proceeding. and whether it was intended to go on with the Army or Navy Estimates ? Lord PALMERSTON said, as the House had entered upon the Army Estimates, they might as well go on with them. The report would be received to-morrow, and the House would proceed on Friday. IRISH ARMS IMPORTATION BILL Mr. GOULBURN mowed the third reading of this Bi He took this occasion to reply to a remark made by au Hon. Gentleman opposite on a former night, respecting the haste with which he alleged a certain Bill had passed through the House. He would appeal to ►he House whether, on that oc casion, he had not distinctly stated the object of the fill, in the presence of many Gentlemen interested on the subject, and that at no very advanced period of the evening. That he had not shewn any disposition to press the measure with unnecessary haste, was evident from the circumstance that an Honourable Baronet, who sat on the opposite bench, had delhered his sentiments on the subject, and had fully ex pressed his approbation of the measure. He thought it hard, therefore, that he should he taxed with a desire to take the House by surprise, when be had, in fact, brought forward . . , the measure openly and fairly. Mr. DENMAN said, that his observations had been, that a Bill which involved such important principles, ought not to have been passed except iu a House sufficiently full to admit a fair discussion. The Bill was read a third time, and passed. Mr. DENMAN said, that the Bill regarding which he had expressed himself was not of a similar nature to the present Bill. On this Bill it was necessary that some degree of confi dence should be placed in Ministers, but the former Bill was an ex post facto Bill. Mr. GOULBUItN said, that the Indemnity Bill had been passed to indemnify Ministers for having continued a law which, through some inadvertency, had been suffered to ex pire in August last. DISTURBANCES IN IRELAND• Dr. LUSHINGToN rose for the purpose of putting a qtres tion to the Hon. Gentleman opposite. He had read, that af ter sentence of death had been passed upon the unfortunate persons lately convicted in Ireland, it had been intimated to some, that their execution would take place, but that the lives of others would depend upon the continuance of the pre sent disturbances. He wished to know whether this state ment was correct ? Mr. GOULBURN replied, that he had received no intima tion of the circumstance. Dr. LUSHINGTON replied, that he was happy to hear that such was the case, for the measure would hare been torture of the severest kind. RUSSIAN TARIFF. Mr. BERNAL inquired whether the account published this day in the different papers, respecting the r_ussian Tariff, was correct ? Lord LONDONDERRY replied, that he would make inqui ry if the Tariff had officially transpired. The other Orders were then read, and the House.adjourn ed at a quarter before One o'Clock. PIDDING and Co., No. 1, Cornhill, remind the Public, that THURSDAY, the 14th of March, will be the Second Day of Drawing ; although 5,000 Tickets were drawn the First Day, there are still 56 Capital Prizes in the Wheel, all Sterling, including FOUR of TWENTY TIIOUSAND POUNDS, One of which is to be attached to the First-drawn Prize, on the 14th instant, and very probably this may now be on sale at . PIDDING'S Office, No. 1, Cornhill. The 77th regiment perhaps is more widely dis tributed than any regiment in his MAJESTY'S ser vice. It occupies three castles, viz. Edinburgh, Stirling, and Dumbarton ; three forts, viz. Forts George, William, and Augustus ; two islands, viz. Arran and Islay; besides which, a company is stationed at Glasgow, and one at Paisley, and is the only infantry regiment in Scotland, PRICE 0. TII IS DAY AT Bank Stock shut 3 per Cent. Red. shut 3 per Cent. Cons. 79 79j 31 per Cent sogi 4 per Cent. PRICE OF IRISH Bank Stock 249 Gov. Deb. 3i per cent. ... 90 Stock, 34 per cent. 9O 898 Gov. Deb. 4 per cent Gov. Deb. 5 per cent 4ig - Stock, 5 per cent 44i Exchange on Loud HIGH WATER AT LONDO2 Morning, 12 minutes after 2. 1 STOCKS NE O'CLOCK. 5 per Cent. Navy Ann. 102 i i it India Bonds 4Ds 445. 3 per Cents. 1751 7Bi Excheq. Bills par 2 pr. Cons. for Account 79jia STOCK, MARCH 2. Grand Canal Loan, 4 p.ct. Ditto 6 per cent. 76 Ditto Stock Royal Canal Stock .. Wide-street Cert. 6 per et. Do. Deb. with Gov. Sec — Lon, March 1, O. BRIDGE TO-MORROW. Evening, 36 minutes after 2. THE SUN. SOLEM QUIS DICLIZE FALSUM AUDEAT LONDON, TUESDAY, NARCH 5, 1822. WNW. The principal topic introduced last night in the House of Commons arose from the Army Es timates. Colonel DAVIES moved for a reduction of the Military Force of the Kingdom to the amount of 5000 men ; but that furious Financier, Mr. HumE, proposed that it should be to the amount of 10,000. We may venture to hope, that. Colonel DAVIES, as a Military character, must be better qualified to point out the extent of any proposed reduction than Mr. TiumE ; but the latter Gentleman, who seems to aspire at a reputation for universal knowledge, in order to justify the title of the Parliamentary Encyclo pcedia, which has been applied to him, no doubt considers himself as much more competent to judge upon the question, and to decide upon it, than the gallant Colonel, who has only the gro velling advantage of practice, white the Northern Seer has all the lights of theoretical perfection. However that may be, the good sense of the house o s propositions; and, inde e d, nde rreijgea theed b oti t disturbed st a t e o f I re l an d , t h e considering critical condition of Europe, and the menacing occurrence of a war between Russia and the Porte, the proposed reduction of our military force, at such a moment, by no means shews much political sagacity in either party, though the MINORITY - --- - - OF 39 WHO VOTED, LAST NIGHT, FOR POSTPONING THE CLAUSE FOR REMUNERATING THE BANK: UNTIL THF. MATE OF THE CHARGE FOR THE MANAGE3IEWII SHOULD DE KNOWN. Althorp, Visct. Grenfell, P. Newport, Rt. Hon. Blake, Sir F. Hume, J. Sir John Byng, George HutchinsOn, Hon. Normanby, Lord Bennet, Hon. H. G. C. H. Phillips, G. Bernal, R. Honeywood, W. P. Phillips, G. R. Cakraft, John Johnson, Col. Peirse, H. Cavendish, Hon. H. L am b , H on. W . Price, R. Coffin, Sir. I. L oc kh art, J . I . Rice, J. S. Calvert, N. Leycester, Ralph Robinson, Sir G. Davies, Colonel M au l e , H on . W . Sy k es, D. Denman, 'l'. Moore, Peter Stanley, Lord Fergusson, SirR.C. Martin, J. Whitbread, S am . Foley, T. - Moberly, John , Wood, Alderman Gascoyne, .Geneihl Monck, J.B. TELLER—E. Ellice. • • MINORITY OF 51, WHO PROPOSED : THE REDUCTION OF THE 'act , - . LAIC ARMY FROM 68,802 TO 57,802. Althorp, Visct. Ilobhouse, J. C. . Nugent, Lord Bernal,. R. Horieywood,W.P. Ricardo, David Barrett, S. B. M. Hughes, Colonel Robinson, Sir Geo. Benyon, B. Hume, Joseph Scott, J. Birch, J. Hutchinson, Hon. Smith, Abel Bright, Henry C. H. Smith, Wm. Blake, Sir F. James, W. Stanley, Lord Bury, Viscount Johnson, Col.. Sefton, Earl of Byng, George K enne d y, T . F. Wharton, J. Collin, Sir I. Latnbton, J. G. Webb, Colonel Concannon, Lucius Millington, Dr. Whitbr ea d, S. Davies, Colonel Moberly, J. jun. Whitbre a d, W. 11. Denison, W. J. Maxwell, John Wilson, Sir R. Denman, Thos. Maule, Hon. W. Wyvill, M. Fergusion, SirR.C. Monck, .1. B. Wilkins, W. Fitzgerald,LordW. Moor e , Pet er Williams , Wm. Graham, S. Newman, R. W. Wood, Ald. Guise, Sir W. ____ . TELLER—Hon. 11. G. Eennet. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Luna', 4° die Marlii, 1822. EDINBURGII POLICE BlLL—Petition of Householders of Portobello, against ; referred to the Committee on the Bill. DUBLIN FOUNDLING Hos-1 Petition for leave to present a PITAL Petition for a Bill, referred GAS LIGHT—Dover ) to a Committee. Wakefield—read 2d time, and committed. 1N.:1.03u E—Bobbington (Stafford and Salop)—Bill presented, and read a first time. PAN' MG—Bristol—Petition for leave to present a Petition for a Bill reported, Redort to lie on the table. Ramos—Canterbury and Sandwich, Canterbury and Rams_ gate, and Leicester and Peterborough—read Al time, and committed. Dudbridge and Nallsworth, Shaftesbury and Sherborne, and Surrey New—Bills ordered. FORFAR COURT HOUSE CHERCH—Holborn (St. Andrew's) Bills ordered. SALFORD SMALL DEBTS SrrurTs—Petition of Dealers in Spirits, and Inhabitants of Berwick-upon-Tweed, to remove the restrictions on the sale of Scotch Whiskey, to lie on the table. A Gnic ELTITRAL DisTlLESs—Petitions from Worcester, and the South Hams District of Devon—to lie on the Table, and to be printed. BOGNOR MARKET BILL—AII who come to the Committee to)have voices. CIRCUIT COMMISSIONS BlLL—read a first time, to be read a second time to-morrow (this day), and to be printed. NOTICES OF MOTIONS for THIS DAY. 1. Sir Matthew Ridley,—Accounts relative to the Estates of Greenwich Hospital. 2. Mr. Kennedy,—Bill to alter the mode of choosing Juries to • serve on Criminal Trials in Scotland. 3. Mr. Denison,—To am e nd th e L aws for' indemnification of injuries done by Rioters. 4. Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,—Bill to amend the Su perannuation Act. 5. Mr. Hume,—Returns of Establishment of Office fpr Re. duction of the National Debt :—And of Land Tax Re. demption Office. 6. Mr. William Courtenay,—Select Committee on the Prison Laws. 7. The Lord Advocate of Scotland,—To .continue an Act for preventing Aliens becoming naturalized, or being matte 07.' becoming Denizens, except in certain cases. ORDERS OF THE DAY for THIS DAY. 1. Circuit Coinmissions Bill—Second Reading. 2. Annual Malt Tax Act—Committee th&eupon. 3. Supply—Reports. 4. Sugar, Tobacco, &c. Duties Bill—Third Reading. 5. Exchequer Bills (£20,000,000) Bill—Third Reading. 6. Transfer of Aids Bill—Third Reading. PRIVATE BlLL—Second Reading for This Day. Bradford (York) Gas Light.