The Sun. — London, England, 1801-03-11 00:00:00

and the ease was t 1,4 pmeein ginciple as to the examination of Witne6,cs- - --.lAlt the thing was not cvmmot2,.was.yery true.; the *subkd to which it.. rellrrd Wa v incittnuion i but it dlktiCit'faitlw, that it could notsekilain in principle, because it was uncommon in IvitAice.. He saw no more in this thaNthe.re. wad. in laying before the House a Patent or any other document on which.the libuse: might afterwards have something to move. The Question itself was --- Cerraiily important, and ought to be ) *.ag-ak.surediy .it:wcitild: be; :. discussed with great care, and decided in a solemn manner, • t.iipcin'Whiialt:he gay.e. no :opinion 44. - tirtsetit ke:wa.s,decidedly in f4vpar.of the present:Motion.. :. -Mr. FOX, said,.;l39: bad spolcen.shortly. upon 414 st)bjeci, because he had referred to the Fac tice Of' the Iloti,e—itfprelerring . the sense-of the krotife-to: his own sense ; he was- aling -regularly at teast.,-,That sense be maintained to in, gene Iy , he woul.ibigt,ay : unit - ormly, for_he had not • looked lately At 4e Journals, and it was,not safe to pledge one's self, cu , what was not to be found in them, ~but tliCseuerAl t prailice_of the House he veintaitl.. - --d to ,l*. that , of determining, first on the nece‘sity t ot an Inquiry, at then, if ,that - Le.cessity wits estaldlisliefl, to go into the examina. Lion of Witneses. The Right I:Ion. Oentleman liaci said, that hs,.ll44npi.:shew.n tl4 distindion i‘ti point.of ptincipk, beti,vsen the House order ing Papers to be, Labefofe;theni, and-.exanlining :itne s - sses.- Ile 'did' not ,make thatdiatindion, IN becauseit,was too ob;iousrlt was que, the Hou.-e ordered Pit to by laid before ii; prtParatory to an inquiry sor644i ft es. That Was not the" case with regard to tl e.,examination of Witnesses - Why ? ..Becaulle yci t u know the ,Ottent to which your written EAdence will go ; 'but if y . ou_call a Witness, you go into an examination Of which you do not see - the. length, or know the bearing. Ile was afraid bf this course as a precedent. It might be after all an useless inquiry ; for it might, after 'the Wis. were all establishes, turn out that the Hon. Member was eligible in the opinion 4 - the House, and that would put an end h 'the whole business at once. - ,•- Tbe • APTORNEY G EN.k RAL did not Pro ' fess to be much aCquainted with the Rules and Orders of the I fouSc ;_ but he was governed in t hi s c4s e, Ily , t he reason and common practice of 'mankind, alit! such Nvelethe 'best: guides, in cases I j i t . were new: lt was a rule of common: sense, a t id of Law. likewLe, firstto establiol ;t f cl, and then to look into the Law arising out of that fgt . The Noble Lord-complained - that one Gen_ - t ame occupied •a seat in that linuse,. who had pot by Law, .a aght so -to occupy it. That . was 'a Question - of" PrOilige.in that House," examin. - able before - no other tribunal than that House. — . ..Thar aj.ll.itiation could not coratunce - befote,the fact was ascertained, whether or not the Gentle. wan Cainplaincd of as an ineligible person, oi, account of Ins being 'a Priest, was - or was not a 'Feieet it, therefore;. became: abioltiftly'neces. rt " - Tif 'fad bd .- --&- 4 - 2ry sto , _ ,ore any ,Lsous, e S o n f itif the I,3•Ar on it could take place. As to i be general qilestion, *tether a person who had :been ordained . a Priel,t, was or - was not ellgitife sit inAltat liou - 4,4 it Was. a Inat ttir..oh which .it hjyri to.,doliver ) but , ev en to ff;r:n an opiniOn, .until be had i•cru , ,,..-d the el: our Incesttirs, handed to through the medium of the-journals. „ •41 E . RS ICI NE differed entirely, .from- his •_ a garac kgwieittl tct whoi . n he paid inany handsome conipliments. He maintained . 7' l 7 — ills proposition, that unless there was IC 'maxibl of the Comtni,vl 4 ,l4w, or:thero as.a praaice of Parlianseni,. ihe et CinlitietudeParliamenti, I,l,vhich was in,thisr.ase to . be taken as parr of the Coitiion La‘;....--or . ' that there was the proviion .or'sorne Statgte,-by• Which. a person who had tak6l :the orders of Priest :was .declared _in ,ths House,gave him a right to be there, for pOisessioTh is a title, unless there ss S.amt authority by Law to . clisturbit.- There.. fore, unless there was some express Law-declaring Mr. TOOKE ineligible, the - choice of the Eletlor. had of i tscl f ati s fecred on him the charaCter of aße rfesentaiire of the People. If this be so, it would ..b e preposterous to-examine.evidence into the fad: of his being a Priest, because when that faa was esiabliThed, 116• Law would arise out cif it. He :.contended ) that. the procedure now proposed was repugnant to the rules of Law. The course, for instance, in the investigation of crimes, was'ffrst to state the Lawr as it - stood then to state the /ndiament which charged the Prisoner with faas - which amounted to a breath: of that Law, then to -prove these faasin evidence, and, finally, to call for judgment - on the 'Culprit. But what -was the course that Was—proposed here?— . First, to examine ..intch_ au& take the- -chance, of. proving .it.; land you dO sot, your .labour is lost. f .you . :4.lo,yroNe it, then to _zdjourty -the -Coutt-:.for the purpos of looJcilig -into boeks;- olietker-i-there is OT is not, any :La w which 'applies to,.your when you have got theth ; - that is, yoU alledge.there is a taw of :uCh - and vouch `a kind; *IA . :. then=fo 4 examine into fads, for tl' . e xiirpose . afterwards 0 whether there is such 4 Law or not: This . 1-1 1 ) ?ti4rcgi to lwn to be inv citing all the rulet 7 • Common sense . • The - SCILIC.I7:O .GE &ilk_ Anfwercd the aripmettts id Mr.. EASY. I NE I and kview of the wholtsase, which, he 6 ectnityired as a very plain one, in far our of the- course proposed by this Motion. Lord TEMPLE said, he dist:lll6lly meant here after to contend, and' to assume, that the Hon. Gentleman was real eligible. i - 11fe." - Egtif Htiflntd - , -- tre - mretreerreefid - er - a sume it, but he had-not said that he could-prove it. Mr, SHE R I D .11V ~vent over , the whole of the arsuments . urged in . favOur . Of the Motion, and a rgued.against.therit, , He 015servccl, that nothing could be more WhirnSieal,-than the idea that this mode Of proceeding would - save thie time of thellnuse—That was say', the 'Houk might inquire into the :fia of Me. TUOt E beingla *,. Pite having established that Wl,' the to . go into the question of law.,, and if it should turn out, as he believed it would, that. there wits no law to disqualify him, then they'llWe : of the In- ,ciglfy)vo94l. colpy trir979, away, pe cause it would be time employed - upon as,:elttiii ng:that Mali was of no value ; wlie;eas, if the other course was taken, that of itiquiring inie, the law first, time might — indeed- be saved, for if it should tnrr out Sy law that a Ptiest7 licit disivakified, theulhe, faa of Mr. HPlik r ijooK E being a Iriest, would Pass by alto - getter, , Thai therefore was the way to save time, if that . was the objets - of suplialeri 'Of this Mo tion. It was said, that the Npble Lord assumed that N'lr.lloawr. TO 01E was ineligible because he- was a---P-nest:---New -there—was no justice in the idea of going into an inquiry of raft, merely but a• use there was _an.. assurnption.of Law. That assumption should first be disposed of, and if in; the affiimiti've, an inquiry would then be necessary into the faet, because the fart would then become material. - IjirilYEMP LE Said, that Gentlemen had called for Precedents:, uponfthis subject--there Was one which occurred to him, and which appeared to him, precisely in point. It was the case of - COL. CAWTHORNE upon that oecasion the first' thing ,done was -to move for the proceedings of the cotitt:Martial—rHis: Lordship said,..he was not in the House at the time, but he believed that was the course pursued upon-that. occasion. -Mi.. W DUNDAS said, that it appeared to him that if the mode of proceeding which ,the Gentlemen on the other side contended for, was adopted, there would be .no end of inquiries ; because-any Gentleman might gratify his curiosity by :proposing. any abstra& question whatever, and might call upon the House to decide upon it. For instanee,,, if. any, Gentleman had a, curiosity to knoW whether . a man of Colour was entitled to sit intthat House, he:might, if he pleased (upon the; principles contended for- by the Gentlenrien orr,the other side of the H - use) call upon the House to appoint a Committee to determine it. If a person were to make a Motion 'of that kind, would not the have a right . to ask . the Gentleman, for what purpose he called upon the House 'to decide the Question ? It appeared to him absurd to - say .they would not. What had been the, usage of ••Parliatnent upon this subjea ?. He wished particularly to ask the Honourable Gentleman who, spoke last •but one, What was hii conduCt -upon a former occasion, when he made IVlOtion about the Ilirrif . eCi-etary of State?-== 'He recolleaed the circumstance perfealy well, be cause it was t'he first day he took his seat in that House; in the fear 1795. 'The Hon. Gentleman seeing a Rt. Hon. Gentleman (Mr. DUNDAS) in the HoUse, said, " I. see an illustrious Stranger in the House, I .move that he may withdraw." The Hon. Gentleman did not then adopt the mode for whichhenowso strenuously contended, viz. move } for a Committee to inquire whether that Rt. ion. - Gentleman,.as Third Secretary of State, was entitled to a seat in that House, but he immediately moved that the Rt.. -Hon. Gent-ie. , . consistent with the, (latrine which he had ad vanced upon this occasion. Mr. SHERIDAN said, he certainly had not upon that occasion•moved for aCommittee to de. cide .the. obstruct point, because he moved it upon a positive Statute. Mr. Wm. DUNDAS explained. 1: H. ADDINGTON supported the Mo. tion of the Noble Lord, and contended, that the plan Of proceeding he had proposed, was the most consistent with the usual proceedings of the House. Mr. FOX said, that every thing he had heard since the commencement of ;he discussion, had not only iotifirined him more and more in the opinion which he had at' first entertained, but • had con vinced. him of the propriety of the Motion with which he should- conclude. The Gentlemen on the other. side, in arguing this Question, had con tended, that they did not see. the difference be tween written and parole• es, idence, but had not done that which they had been called upon to do, namely, ptoduCe a precedent of Witnesses being called to the Bar in the - first instance, without any previous ground being laid for inquiry, or with out some determination of the House to go into an examination. Every Member of that Houk knew that it was the constant course to call for Papers,. though in innumerable instances no pro ceedings whatever were grounded upon them ; but there was a material difference between mov ing for Pipers, and' calling Witnesses to the Bar in order to be examined. But what was the course of proceeding, it- Mr: RAKER rose to call the Hon. Gentleman to Order. The Hon. Gentleman had already delivered his - sentiments 'more than once during the debate, and he was now beginning another speech, :with a notice that-it was to end with a Motion, a. proceeding which appeared to him wholly. irregular. He begged to ask , the Hon. Gentleman what Motion he could pake in the present stage of the proceeding, except for an amendment, for the Order of the Day, or to ad journ ? Now 'he did not see how the Hon. Geptie nian's speech was applicable to any of these notions. The SPEAKER_ said, that when the Hon. Gentleman had expressed'his intention of making a Motion, he was bound to suppose that it was One which he could with propriety make. HC certainly could not suppose that a Gentleman who dhadbeen so ion 'mtbe,liouse as the lion. .Qcn. tlernan had; would give notice of a Motion m e re : ly to give_him an opportunity of making a speech, Mr. FOA said if the Hon. Gentleman wished to know what the nature of his_ Motion was, !he had.no..wish..to conceal it—it was for an . Ad! jaurnment, and he,had flattered .himself that- as an Old Member of Parliament, the Howe, and partioularlpthe licm. Gentleman who had c..slied him to Drder, would have given him...credit for not making a:Motion merely as &pretext to let him in to,rnakupaispeech. , Sir 0 7 . YOUNG spoite to Order; he said he 'understodd that a Gentleman might un doubtedly-move an A4journmegiti but it, must be at the end of his first speeeli ) bat that he had no right to maize- a second speech- in-ordor- to-iutro duce the Motion, • Ve 01 111 - I.li ti:l 1 / 4 /1. 1./1". xsoa..r_ !Centteinn had a right to nitiv'e the.-Questioh of Adjournment.. . . FOX- he 'conceived that nothing could be snore clear. than that any: Gentleman might, if hu pleased, move to,adjourn, and .state his reasons for so doing : he was then going to , proceed with his arguMent, w.heFt'' The SOLICITOR GENERAL spoke to Order : he . said, - the - Hon. Gentlanait' hart a: right to state his reasons for moving to adjoarn, but he - . did not conceive he was at liberty to rei..ent his former Speech; and to rkly to eviry.ntleitian who had followed - him: - • The SPEAKER said, the Holt. _Gentleman, undoubtedly, had not a right to go into, the ar- guments which had been , previously urged, bat was merely to state his. reasons-for - moving , .to adjourn; : . Mr.: SIIERIDAN spoke to Order : he said, it would be rather singular, if a.Gentleman _who moved for an Adjournment, .wasaaot allowed to, state his reasons for Making such a" . Motion., A Gentleman . was undpubteOly. bound to state whatever occurred tollinein hi t s first speech, but .if,4:the. Course „of debate,. fresh matter arose, which induced him eo a think that further inquiry would be necessary, he had a right to move to adjourn, and [9.4 ta te-th,c, reasons . w hy. he thought •it right, to make that Motion. He then moved to adjourn. - " Mr. FOX said, that., nothing could be more clear, than that if a 'Member had a right to .move to Adjourn, , lr .had .a right to state his reasons for iht: nation.. A Learned Gentleman ,on . the other side had contended that though a ,Member making such a - MOtion had a right to state his reasons for so doing, yet that he had no right to cornment upon the former part' of the Debate. He begged to ask, what were the-usual reasons for moving - to Adjourn' Sometimes it was from the lateness of the hour, bite in general it was in consequenee of some things which had occurred imp the course of the Debate, and surely a ,'. Member_ had a right to allude to those cireum- Istances, in order to - shew that the House ought 4 not. immediately to ,proceed to a decision.H-It had ; been ' said, that the World was ' every day g rc4iag 'wiser, and , it certainly had improved very much, if this species of Metaphysics was to prevail, and for one, 'lw confessed he - Uras too' old to learn it. a . , .. . Mr. BRAGGE spoke to Order; she said that there had been for some time a very great inat tention to Order ; an Hon. Gentleman (Mr.. Sit E RIDAN) who rose to speak to Order, concluded with a MOtion to - Adjourn, - which was not regu lar. It appeared to him perfectly clear, that.any Gentleman might, if he pleased, move to Ad journ, but he ought not to make that a pretext for making a general speech upon the subje.l. Mr. W. DUNDAS spoke to Order ; he said ,if every Gentleman had a right to preface a Mo tion o t us •in. y a speec upon -t e general question, a Gentleman might make as many speeches as he pleased, because he could easily conclude with a Motion... - . • . Mr. FQX said, he was sorry to detain the HOuse;lnt it appeared to him that there - could be no doubt of the, right, which he was can_ tending :. Certainly if a'Oentlemaii was to make a Motion merely as a pretext for making a speech', the House N%ould interfere, Put what had pissed that night was sufficient to thew that the orders of .the Hous . ' might be evaded, becauSe if he had not - a rigtit to make a speech on his own motion -to adjourn, there was no doubt but that he had a right tomake a speech if any body else had moved to adjourn. The Motion with which he meant to conclude was either to adjourn, or if there were any other Orders of the Day, to move that those Orders should be read. the in. terruptions he had experienced had broken the chain of his - argument, but he would now proceed to state his reasons for. moving to adjourn, and he assured the House that Motion was not made as a pretext to enable him to make a speech. He was going to state a - a'beil he was interrupted, that the Llouse ,had always made . a difference between -parole evidence and written documents. With . respell to what had fallen from some'Gentlemen on the other side, respelling the praetice . .of .Courts of Law, he confessed it had rather surprised him. It un doubtedly never could be. the prailice in a Court of Law, to examine evidence without some pre vious proceeding,. such as a'declaration in a Civil Action, or an Indiamnnt in a Criminal Case.— But what he complained of in . the present case %0 3 ._.that there had, been,,,no; previous Inciniry. established. Mr. RAICE,R spoke to Order, and contended that although the Hon. Gentleman might mean to' move an Adjournment, he had no right to go over the whole Debate again. _ The SPEAKER said heavas upon the, point of calling the Hon. Gentleman to Order, becata.e he had commented tipicin *hat ' had - previously!. passed in the Debate. He had a right to state his reasons .why the House should Adjourn, but he had no right,.under the pretence . olinoving to Adjourn, to reply to what had previously fallen in the course of the Debate. Mr. FOX said, he Must,• he supposed, submit to this new order of the" -l ouse peretbere Beat , -a great cry of" Q-d,:r.l Order Pl . . He ' said he must, he iupposed, submit to what appeared to him to be a new order of the House, { but he would not submit. without entering his Notes; 3virst it, ankigainst being told 'that' he made 7mis.lllo. . tion the pretence for: replying. what -had fallen in the debate, when in fad he was aliewing,: by strimt logical reasons, that the House wa s not` then in a condition to come- to a decision upon the Question before them. . If the:.l-lolit.e meant to lay down, this new order, he Must submit, though he could not find:any precedent for if.—+ -He would; however;' prcTeed ra his • argamenri notwithuanaing_ the' shai:klaa awhieh " had been laid.on him. He now undepsraod that he might not a&ert--he begged; kiardcal---Le might , ad. .Kett to,..but he must not answcr i . :iny of the ar , gutnents which bad been used, rf 11 - e . 4 - 9use. in his. cause if they, did it would, i.i hit.; -opinion, be contrary. .to the established usage of Pa.flia merit. Another reason. he thew from the analogy of proceedings in Coutts of Law, where no Counsel would ever propose to call a Witness to establish a fart, unless some previous proceed. ing had been instituted ; for .instance, would any Judze sVer a Counsel to call a Witness to prove - that a tt:J± went to St. James's-street and bnught a sword and a pistol, without laying some previous greuil, or shewing.that it was done with a bad - intenciou ? Another reason he had for propoing to adjourn was, that there appear ed to him, to be much better modes of prOt ced ing itrthi's Case than that which ti Noble Lord had suggested ; and he proposed to adjouh, Fn hopes that seine Gentlemen Would propose' son'tt other plan to the House, and if they did nor, he should himself suggest another mOde of proceed ing, If,, htwever, the House was averse to every thing . like delay upon this subjea; he was afraid that his plan would not be very pleasing: He had really colleded t o little in the course of the Debate which had taken place, •that he . thought the best way would be to appoint a Com mittee to look let° Precedents, nor to examine whether a Priest had Wright to sit in that House, .but to see what was the mode of pl'oceeding which' the House had adopted upon occasions' similar to the present, where they were to deter- I. mine upon the eligibility or ineligibility of a Member. The ConStitution of this Country way such as to tender cases similar to the present very rare, because there was generally a Petition against the person returned ; but there Were, he supposed, some cases to be found like the present, iviiera there could be no, Petition from the Eledors, and where therefore the business must be taken up by the House. - Much had been said about Mr. GR ENV I LLE'S Bill; he certainly at first strongly opposed that Bill, but a very short period had 'elapsed before he was sensible of his error, and - he was convinced of- the excellence of the mea. sure. If, howerer, the House were now in a situation in which they could not apply the regu lations'of that Bill to this case, they ought to con_ form as nearly to its-spirit as they coohi. It migl.t Ise supposed that he had sonec personal feelings upon this subject, because in the year 1784.;wlien he was returned to Parliament by a great majority of the lodepeodent Eleaors for WesuninSter, his return had been unjustly delayed ; liL had a right to say so, because it had beep so determined in a cOurt of Justice. WECII that came before the House, instead of ading 'upon the . spirit of Mr. Garrivretr's Bill, the House chose to revert to the old course of proceeding, and voted the conti nuance of the Scrutiny : at last, however, the House felt that it was wrong; and the point was given up. What inference did.he draw from this ? lhe Bill was, founded upon the ide a t h at t h e House was a partial Judicature in cast's of this wind, 'and therefore he contended that in 'ewes in which Parliament 'admitted itself to be liable to par tiality,: it ought anxiously to endeavonr to adopt the regulations of the Bill, or at least to' aa. as 'much upon the spirit: of it as possible. His proposal, therefore, , would be, to appoint a Select Committee, to whom the case should be referred in -the first instance, ,before they. in.; : vestigated. the question of fact. .He was the more o : o 2 xious for the adoption of this mode, because he thought the •House ought` to suety to the world, ,that • they had not acted with. heat or Precipitation upon this important ques,tion.— With respeei to the question, Whether a Priest had or : had .not ,41 right. to sit in that house ? he should not at present give any opinion. It .was a queation.pf great importance, and : called far the most mature consideration. Upon these greued's he moved, than the .douse do now adjourn. The SPEAKER said, the Hon. Gentletnaft seemed lurt at his having used the word prc. tence•; -he• begged to• assure the Hon..Geritlenum that he did not use it in an invidious tense, ur with a view to hurt his feelings'." Mr. FOX said ht - was perfet,t!v satisfied, and begged to return - his thanks , for what had just fallen front the Chair. Cdortel 111.112 - rry said, that'a distinaion had been made, for,which'tiv..• . re appeared to hire to be no foundatioh, between the reception of Ivritten evidence, and the examination of Witnetises at the , liar:, forjt appeared to him that there Was . . 'a Much stronger teasonfor exaMining- the Witnesses immecliately; than there was for receiving the written documents ; fir 'a Witness, Ind perhaps the only Witness to a fats; might die, but written' evidence - could at any tithebe . produced. It had Leeripid, that a Court oflastite never, 'entered 'into . .the examination of ' Witnesses, unLss .. a preN;i6us inquiry Was establisligsa, bvt: this was not the case, tbr the Court of Chancery fie- . quentlygranted commis6ons to examine , Wit_ i lessesYik hi. , :ie ene, Wfore the Bill did not pray for any' piiiiicular' relief. * An . I-fon. Gentleman, had put a clise, - of the Honse being calle:,l upodta_ decide, whether a,Mar. of-Colon; could sit is it. He believe , ) this was'not to imigiliary . a case :tis the . Hon. Genthralan supposed, f:\r he harLheard *that if the 'present :11,fember. fbr•Old Sawn% lost hi 4 seat, a person of that description would-tz— T Here t,6 4 .; Hon. Mezi3er qua i Cti 1,,' :I ;',i 0 rde r. k e c oncluded 'with giving Hs assert to. thp •hdo.. tion for calling in the Wirn'essesi .. t 'nit. 41.16 t ipn wirstitcre:loudiy.ctilled, for, e 7 . `'l<r:rd TEM Pa said ) '11... tv6ukl not cle l .3)''the' ITIOue, pne:nii4lute, 'lit: s iihed wrely test4te'.o-1C USC to, wYch he had. before alluded, vii: th.ig of Co!onel CAW I'llo kNE , UpCill 'Olt occasiou, the first stCp';llat . wa's . taken was'to vote an Ad.. arm; . .t(i, His MAJEs-ry, prayirs that he would be ple4lied• to ig'i e diretlions thlit' a Copy of the PrOcee4ngs of ,4he ,court Martial .which had. been , held ummColonel. CAw Tli ORt9 c; F.llollld .be . iald before the liOuse. ' 'then Proceeding . s werd,hid loe(otc the House, ;Ind )I,pott Om the Hous e ex _ polled bun,' withi-idt'fiaing apFint,d any Com mittee. He merely .. w i.shed. to 'state this . case, be_ cause it appeared 'iii _hi in t o,be tOMpletety in point _to.the.present iinebtion. _; • , , . • 1 ... . the-Questio n being again Zalled 'for.--:-.4fie House — : viaeti upon . Mr. Fox's' Motion ofird.