The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-16 00:00:00

in his calculation. It should he recolleded, that Parliament had voted 100,000 Seamen, which they deemed sufficient for the defence of the Country ; it therefore became the duty of Lord ST. VINCENT to consider how those too,ooo men could be disposed of in the most useful way 'for the service of the Country ; and he thought the Noble Lord had acted wisely in first blocking up the great Fleets of the Enemy, and in protecting our Commerce ; and he could not help thinking that Lord ST. VINCENT was upon the whole a better judge of the distribu_ tion of the Naval Force than even the Right Hon. Gentleman. The next charge was, that the Ad, mii - Alty did not build Ships in the Merchants' Yards. The ,Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that it was impossible in time of War to build Ships in the King's Yards ; but he had been told by persons conversant in the subjed, that that was not the case ; bur upon that point he would not pretend to decide. But did the Right Honourable Gentleman know, that the Merchants' Yards had not been tried and that it had not succeeded Did he ne. ver hear that Contrattors did -not always corn- ply with their Contratis ? Did he never in his seventeen years experience, find that ContraCtors were not always to he depended upon ? He did not know whether it might not be made a Charge against LordST. VINCENT, that he was anxious to sate the Public Money ?—And he should not be sur prized if such a Charge should come from the Con traitors, who might feel hurt at not being employ ed. • He did not know where the Rightion. Gen. Tiernan got his information, but it smelt strongly of a Conti - ad, Did the Right Hon. Gentleman never hear of a vessel built by contract in a private yard, which cost, in the first three years after it was built, 17,0001. for repairs l These were all subjeas which he supposed the Right Hon. Shipwright he. hind him considered, as he laid down the law so de cisively upon the subjea. He wished to ask, whe ther the Right Hen. Gentleman had laid before the House sufficient grounds to induce them to record their suspicions of one of the greatest Characters this-Country had to boast or ? The Right Hon. Gentleman sometimes favoured the House with Speeches, the objet of which was to raise the Public feelings to a pitch of enthusiasm; but did he think that these kind of charges were of a nature to raise the feelings, or to excite the despondency of the People ? Could they have any other effAt but that of exciting suspicion? With regard .to the number of Seamen, he had no objetliori to granting the account the Right Hon. Gentleman had called fur ; but he could not agree with him in the comparison he had made about the number of Seamen raised in the first years of the last and the present 'War. He had stated that there were so,coo men raised in the first year of the last war : if he had said there were 50,000 men voted, he would have been correct, but in fa& there were only 37,000 men raised. But it should be recolleeted, that they then began last War upon a very low establishment, that they began after a . very long Peace, that there were then a great number of manuladurcrs unemployed, that there was then no Supplementary Militia, no Army of Reserve to be b,tllotted for, that there were not then 4.00,000 Volunteers embodied. The fart was, that in the present War Parliament had voted 100,000 men, and that at this moment that number was completed within 1700 men ; for there were now out of the too,ooo. men voted, above 98,000 men raised including ?Shrines, exclusiVe of 25,000 Sea Fencibles. He asked whether these exertions, which he contended had never been equalled, afforded any ground of saspiciop against the Noble Lord ? What would be the conseyience of these suspicions going abroad, -except that of in spiring the Enemy with additional hopes ? They had already been told, that cur Militia was a defec tive force, that the Army of Reserve exited only upon paper, and the best thing that could happen to our Fortifications would be, that they should tumble down.; and now they were to be told in ad dition, that our Navy was in a had state. He appealed to the House whether, under such circum stances, they would concur in such a •Motion, brought forward without any parliamentary grounds whatever ? He concluded with stating, that with regard to two of the Papers, he should agree to them, as he had before stated., because they would not, if produced, require farther explanation ; but he should certainly oppose the others. He then moved an Amendment to Mr. Pt TT's Motion, which, - after mentioning Ships of the Line, so Gun_ships, gates, Armed Cutters, and Sloops) to insert the w ords and all other Vessels employed on the pub- lie service." • 'Sir CHARLES POLE said, the objeft of the Right 'lion. Gentleman appeared to be to excite a di str u s t of the capacity and conduit of the Ad. miralty ; a distrust for which, in his opinion, there was no foundation. He had no recourse to Papers or Documents, he spoke as a plain professional man. He believed that it was known, that within forty- eight hours. after the commencement Of hostilities, Admiral CORNWALLIS sailed for Brest, and ; from • that time to the present, that and all their other Ports had been completely blocked up. He' should be glad if any body would tell • him at what time the exertions of the Navy had been so great as they bad been, in the short time that had elapsed since the commencement of this War; and when there was a greater spirit 'of enthusiasm and enterprize, from the Admiral down to the common man ? He really did not think such another instance could be found in the Annals of. the Country. Much had been said about the Gun-boats ; that was entirely a professional question, and when. it Was ,left to the Public to determine which was the better judge upon that subjed, the Right Hon. Gentleman or Lord St. VINCENT, he believed they would not be long in making up their opinion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of the num ber of Gun-boats that were employed last War ; a ll he knew about them was, that the greater part of them lay useless in our harbours, and he believed they were in general mere jobs ; and therefore upon this suojed he thought tie Admiralty had ailed wisely. Whatever the Rt. Him. Gentleman might think upon the subjeCt, he was sure no seaman would ever say that Gun-boats ought to be resisted by Gun-boats ; thy must be resisted by Men of War and Frigates. He should therefore resist every iVlosion which tended to throw any kind of doubt or suspicion upon the condud of the Admiralty, until there was. something like' It ease made cult against them. With regard to the number of sea men that had been obtained since the War, he begged Gentlemen to consider the difficulty of rai. sing men so soon after a War. Most of the men who had been discharged would rather have been shot than enter again. He therefore thought the exertion to obtain men had been unequalled. He concluded with expressing his admiration at the vi gilance and skill wtich bad been displayed by our' Fleets during the present War, and said he consi dered every day. that the Enemy was blocked up as a day of triumph to the Navy. Admiral BETiKELEY said, he approved of the Motion, but,he declared that in supporting it he was not aauated by any personal motives against Lord ST. VINCENT. With respeft to what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. TIERNEY) about the number of men that had been raised, he begged to observe that he had counted' the Marines twice, and that instead of wanting 1,700, he be lieved they wanted t 0,000.. The . Right Honour ' able Gentleman had talked of Launches, but no. body would compare, at least 'no Naval Officer would compare a Launch with a Gun-boat. 'He was convinced that if a sufficient number ofGun-boats had been prepared as they might have been in a short time after the - commencement 'of the War, the Enemy's Flotilla would never have been able to collea at Boulogne. He only begged Gentlemen to look at the Gazettes, and they would find it conszantly stated that the Gun-boats escaped because our Fri gates could not follow them into shoal water. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of a Naval Force of above isoo vessels, but many of them were no better than cockle-shells, and could not sail from Portsmouth harbour to Spithead. He contended that there were not a sufficient number of Frigates and small Vessels employed for the Channel Service and for Convoys; if there were, we should not have lost nineteen sail out of one Convoy, ner would a rich West Indiaman have been taken between Ports- mouth and the Downs. He said he was so -con- vinced of the necesity of employing small vessels of the sort mentioned by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. PITT), that he had offered a plan to the Ad miralty for that purpose, and he was convinced that too of them might have been equipped in a very short time. lie observed that a Gentleman who had devoted much of his attention to the Naval Defence of this Country, had made cut a plan which he thought might be extremely useful': he went with it to one of the Officers of the Admiralty, Who said, that the plan might be a very good one, but that he should not have any thing to do with it. He took it to another, who said, that he knew nothing of the matter, and so the plan was rejetled. His objeaion to the Motion of his Right Hon. Friend was that it did not go far 'enough. He thought the charaaer of the Achniralty was at stake. He wished to see the Motion go further —to the disposition of the Ships themselves ; to the quantity of Stores in our Dock-yards ; to the state of those Dock-yards ; to the number of Artificers who are in these Dock-yards .; and for what reason ? (he dared to say for a good one when it came to be explained). • These Duck- yards Were eight hundred Ship_ wrights short of their usual and necessary comple ment. First, then, he said that his Right Hon. Friend's Motion did not go far enough, and in the next place he thought that unless the present system of the Admiralty was charged, he did not say the Board of Admiralty itself changed, but if the system of the Admiralty be nut changed, he apprehended some great calamity might soon befall this Country. Sir CHARLES POLE explained. Sir EDP: I ARD PELLEW spoke in so low a tone as rendered it impossible, for us to hear all he s a id. We collected however that he was decided in support of the System adopted for our Naval De fence by the present Board of Admiralty. It was said that a great force of the Enemy's Flotilla was at Boulogne; he was glad to hear that they. were in one place; for thus knowing where they were in great force it was the better worth our while to watch for them.- It was said we had not gunboats fit for our purpose—We had them in the mouth of the Thames—He said we had Gun-boats for the purpose for which we wanted them. We had them at Deal — We had them at Yarmouth, and we had them every where they could be useful, and that ' was only in shoal water, and the small ones were the better in such cases, because they were the most aftive ; they could be useful when large Gun-boats could not aft : we had a number of these small ones ; we had a number of small vessels also ; we had ships in the Downs also, sufficient for our purpose, ready to be active at a moment's notice : our blockading Sys tem had been carried on without the least defet : it had been carried on in Holland ; we had kept the entire command of the seas more this war than we ever did before. All ranks and descriptions of men in the navy had she 'u more zeal and ardour in the Service than was manifested at any former period. As to the Con: traas for building Ships with Merchants, it was to be observed . there were Ships in. our Dock-yards which ought to be finished first. He knew some instances of Ships built by Contra tors, which, in stead of lasting as they ought to have done for twenty years, were out of repair in one year. This was most remarkably the case with the Ajax, andit was the case With many others which were built by Contraaors. In a word, he thought that whenever we could do without building Ships by'contrad, u e Should do so. As to Gun-brigs, some persons cal led them Gun-boats, hut itOproperly, for Gun_ brigs were different from Gun-boats, and we. had enough of them for our present purpose ; they were useful in their way, but he would not take them for the use which some persons thought of employing them in, and the same thing might be said of gun. boats and all other small vessels, they were all use ful in their way, and we had enough of them for all the purposes for which he thought they were useful ; if any of them were worked up, they were supplied by others that loid been built in- their stead, to keep up the proper quantity of that sort of stock ; but if there were any more of them built for our. defence, .he had no difficulty in saying, lie had no doubt but that they would not he • wanted, for that the Eremy could not pass cur ships in any part of the Channel with secrecy ; it was impossi ble for them to come out in any thing iike con siderable numbers on any expedition, however st al cn , without some of our ships seemg them ; and such was our force every where, that he had no doubt of -the issue. A'-; they were at Boulogne stated to be in, a large force, which he had no doubt they were; he Wyss gIA to hear it, he wished they ‘vouid come out, that v:e might g;ve a better account of them than any account tive haci at present. In the mean time they were blocic.ded, so thaf:ll-..e,y coull not, or they dared not cone Out ; and that he Undeistpod to he the fiat business of a Fleet. lie would say again, that mnre c.n.rage, zeal, and ardour, in all ranks and descriptions of persons, never existed on board a Peet, titan ex isted at this Moment in the British Fleet. 'Never was there more general satisfaaion felt on board every Ship than at preSent : never were Ships bet ter stored, nor in better condition in every respeEt than at present ; and this he averred to be perfeffly curred is applicable to the Navy at this mormnr, and to have been s 9 in the years tSoz and 1303, as well as at the present moment. There was now not a great number uf ships Under repait, but there were some ; we had, however, enough to meet die enemy, and more than enough for that purpose : we had enough for the purpose of blockading Brest ; we had enough at Flushing ; we had enough at Boulogne ; we had enough at l',,nlon; we had, in a word, the command of cverf P.;rt our of which the Enemy could ever attempt to come fOrth. He had had the command of only six ships ; he had-been relieved generally about once in a month or six weeks, While he was at Ferrbl r..ith his six ships, which the Enemy's Admiral thought were twelve, that was to say, he must have thought that !,e had six outside and Six inside ships ; so that the e;letny dared not face him. Admiral Bssots os:sr explained. Mr. 171 L-11 E E, that undoubtedly the question now befOre the House was extremely in. teresting to every Member of that House, and to every individual in this Country, and upon _which he was anxious to say what he felt. He waottd 'to enter upon this question as •a Representative of the People of England should, and as the People of Eng land, or he mistook them, expected their Reoseo:o tatives to do ; and in beginning, he would say, that in his opinion, there would be an end to the seen._ rity of this Country if subjects like the present were not treated with a becoming gravity in that House : this was what the People of England hat a right to exped from that House, and did rxiied from that House. He did not think that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. "ft srsy), who followed his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Piri), had hero happy in the of the manner in which he had treated this subjed to-night : He confessed, that the manner in which he took up _the subjed, the. tone irr'which he spoke of it, the temper with which he dieeutsed it, the epithets he bestowed upon it, the charac ter he gave to the motive with which it was brought forward, and what was more of importance than the eharader of any man's motive, • theorriatiner in which he passed over the important crisis in which this business was discussed, were all of them, in his judgment, injudiciously managed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. We were in a state of difficulty and danger, which required great fortitude• and judgment, in which the Members of that House should discuss important questions gravely and - se dately ; but 'What would the Public think of theM ? What 'comments would they make upon•the Debates of that House, if they were to hear such topics as were brought forward, by the Right Hon. Gentle. man, in answer to his Right Hon. Friend ?. r --The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that he had some ground of re fledion upon his Right • Hurl. Friend, by saying he ought to be content With being a Leader in the Voltinteer System of our Defence by Land,and that he should not in te rmeddte with our Na val Defence ; what was this but admitting, although the Right Hon. Gentleman did not intend it, that his . Right Hon. Friend's mind - , which could not be confin. ed to one species of defence for his Country, or with one sort of force or means for its security, but that he was capable of assisting his Country by his wisdoth in Council, his energy of thought, and his a ctivity in e xecution . ; first to raise and qualify the mighty' mass of Volunteers for the essential proteaion of their Country in the hour of peril, should that event arise ; but after accomplishing a system for that purpose, then to endeavour to render the exertions of such a fOrce unnecessary, by maturing the still more immediate and most natural system of defence . of this Country, and which tvent still more with the hearts of the people of it,—its Naval Force.-- It did, therefore, seem to him that the very state . ment of the Motion of his Right Hon. Friend was of itself a sufficient illustration of its importance and of its propriety. He should have wished, as he had hoped, it had been discussed nakedly and simply and plainly, and put to the good sense of the House, instead of being , Mixed with matter which appeared to him to he foreign to it. He did • not distinctly understand the ground on which . the Right Hon. Gentleman had put his opposition to , this Motion. He could have understood hi?i if he had pUt it upon the absolute impropriety of asking any questions upon this suhjed at the present mo ment, of the propriety of abstaining from all in. equity, and of confiding in the First Lord tif the Ad miralty, whose merits, Mr. WILItEIC”ii.CE said, he was pettedly ready to acknowledge ; yet he was of opinion that the services of that distinguished person, however great, were not to be urged as rea sons against entering upon the Irquiry to which these Motions led. However, the Right Hon. Gentleman, besides stating as an objection. that which was no objection • at all, had also stated something that had the appearance of objedion, by saying there was an imprudence in these Motions, be cause disadvantages would arise from the Inquiry to which they led. Novri if that Right HoroGentleman could prove that sufficient exertions had been made, no Inquiry would he necessary ; and the Right Hon. Gentleman himself had admitted that if the Motion was granted, there would then be strong reason for going into an inquiry. Now there were two things to be considered upon the present occasion : first, as to the danger of Inquiry - which the. Right Hon. Gentleman had hinted at, by which he pre_ sumed was meant, the danger of publicity in such a case a 6 this. To thi, he asked in his turn, whe ther the House had not means of avoiding that publicity which was supposed to be. so dangerous? Could not the House appoint a Committee of Sc. F crecy ? Wa, - ; T-Thwe so t entirely tichtitete of means of ialiking Inquiry that th.:r rritegc let n-•t -ters go on as they may, th ou gh thee t hought ;Rein injurious to the Country, for fear of giv ',rig information to our Enemy ? He thought that we were in 'no such dilemma, he thought that might be found, if necessary, of making this Inquiry, without any of that publicity whic h appeared to the Right Han. Gentleman so danger' nits ; hut where was the alternative ? If there had• not been a sufficient degree of exertion used in bring' ing forward the best mode of Naval Defence 10r this Country—what was•to bedone finite to go on with a defective mode of Defenc e ' rather than risk the danger of publicity in adopting a better ? He owned\that betNveen ,the two, ' i e found no difficulty in taking his choice , 2° ' he must say, that a prima facie case hats . heel made for the Inquiry, nor had he heard any. reason given, or even a prima facie case made .°'%` against such an lequirv. Another argumeot. by the Right Hon. &rifleman was, that eerfe6 content reigned throughout the whole Count,,,rf with regard to the nit tit of our Naval service. was aware that here he trod on delicate grou nd ' arel he would abstain from saying a- Word up on that s ohjecA, it he did not" think he should be tray the duty he owed to t h e peele, of this Caine try, if he past it over. Every mat: must spea k °- ( discontent at the it condud of any Thaparunent of , ver nm ent, as mig ht eppear to pretotil gerie 4 e'/'f f among those with whom he had an opporteleiq 0 conversing,' and his opinion must be formed ft" °ll .4 what he heard !ruin such men, and from the opi" i° "A hr might entertain of the means f iolo:roation o n "- kidgment of such persons. The sUhjeet c'fli tcri g t or discontent with the conduct of aoy Departm enb under Government oust be thus considered, and tll had he been endeavouring to consider this subjetit / *- 3. he must say to the House, that he had eat fo" ll ' i nc ',ogle professional mar in the Navy, wh o hall proieed himself privately and confidently to Rit a I Ss of the highest degree dissatisfied with the curia''' . i one with whom he CO',nv er ( the Admiralt}':. Every non that sulejat had expressed himself extre alei ; dissatisfied with the general system of conduel seed by the Board of Admiralty in this War- ' ° f had asked professional men of different the different classes of life, in the professio Navy,of different attachment to parties too —no °( ts ; rent connections in life ; same of them of The trig . )- , 0 rank, gained, as he Wished men might :!Ways'a given extent, gain high station s , where there wa s no ohjttiou to them on the sc ore o f ability, hY e tli . iilluence of those with whom they bad the gou t . O r ' tune to associate ; he had conversed with another class of men who always were, andhilways would 0 , 1 respeded by every body, those who had advati6C, ro high stations purely by their own personal meri t : from ail of whom he had received one and the sad general answer. He had made it hip business to eons ° ~, petsons not onlyafthe highest rank, but also of as 11 experience, and as intima te acqua i n tance with nai : , subjeas as, Perhap., any person in the setvicel a ,e d he must declate, that the terms he had just it now •-• were milder than any he heard - froto these offi ce( 4 " the terms he used were not only milder, btic, t tl r were weak in comparison to those used by ricers to signify their discontent at the .. , 1 , 5 154 adopted by the present Board of AdmiraitY-r .O 1 ferente,to the:tiat7 - 41 . er i yice of this C ou ritf/ %i o n he would declare most sdleinnly, if he were evidence upon - the i 's,llV4t in a Court of ill 3 " - e ert , This. was justified by communications th at le o made' to him from persons to whom ge nera! credit eoc due from all sides of that House. As to•the argo a O f that Parliament gave the Noble Lord at the lie' lltr c the Admiralty no more than looioco Seineen,,,ooe was nothing in it ; for if Parliament gave the 'N usc Lord no more than too,ooo Seamen, it was be e f e l f be asked for no more : and here lie could not wishing that gallant Admiral on the other sid the House (Admiral BERKELEY) might nu t ; er e right when lie said that the 15,000 IVlarines 'd i e it included in the 4 6,003 Seamen mentioned h3'Right Hon. Gentleman"; but be that as it gl e p Was no defence to the Admiraliy that /00 ,00 0 pt .. men was the whole number which Parliatnencg f ;„iy el) for had the Admiralty Board asked- fa c k e t o; additional number, or even twice the numhert• lea liament would have granted them ; but tba c been a thousand times crated in that House' . - e e the exalt number of Seam - en voted w as nuts'' to be considered as that exact defoire her t coat . to "be raised o r t o b e empl o yed, coon c oo a`g many of them were to be employed 3 0 .1 1 tl ll5 be obtained if w ante d, an d t h ere fo r e altllc t t hes e 'same vote was only too,ooo Seanien, Y et 0 00 , had been raised and, employed 130,000, 14. 1 :' t 0. 0 or teo,ooo, if wanted, there would have ryas, difficulty , about having a vote for them 'pc therefore, no defence to the Noble Lord.to;s 3 Y' o o o ' Parliament granted no more Seamen, than. 1 0 ', to His Right Hai, Friend had also s tated, ill ati~ipr~ Line of Battle Ships, the customary mode of.e them' built in Merchants' Yards had not be el) e a sorted'tb, and that in this ch.irn;e of s -.-ito, ° .,,t o rlio . - siderahle number of Slips in the iVierchan" 9 ... s D lle• on the- River were enti,-ely u n oecupiei• . I c i l „‘t•lA. jeCtion /e of his rgot rton. Foo w l the: o"t 1110 the 4airriiral:y, required a much be,cter a"s we d itfen i it had received : it required acs ans wer. ver, e , ent front that'observation tN as nu!'d e t °ci e tit 3 r by the kight Honourable Gentleenan, ;4"Y'ortlile it - atnelt of a Contraet : Right • 11 ° 11( I l e Friend's Mind and trolhet:' o f l if e w ere 9131; • • &Ica UI G to reaidei- shelf an obsflrVatian wholly til a P,f' r a rt y to hill; lot he'itiad never been remarkable `-` ) ,intlY conneXion of this sort : this was a'sort tle l GO- e . tion by which he believed the Right- LIOn• t 0 th man, upon refleaion e g ei l t , idea that ships built 'by ton'traa ,were bu bc t hc r must observe, if they were s o, it m ust , en t any fault of the Admiralty, for they could nre' • bf im tha t position of that sort upon th e the' merely doing their duty, by taking c are a nd matters were &Ili: inspettcd at fit ',seasons 3- id sob, sions ; and therefore when Gentlemen sa a n ee Ships a ere ill built, they only published ": be sor e gencr of the Admiralty. But it mus tllC o g posed that two Ships of the Line haore'' l 3ll Sla fr ill built mint he taken as proof tin ts lie teCtio built by Contraelors were bad ; it mus t m e c et eh leCted that in the course of seven Ye ars P 3,41 19 e • less than twenty-nine Ships of the Line