The Sun. — London, England, 1804-06-06 00:00:00

''l to the particular Classes which have been Yo d Yon to engage in that service. These I h calleave at eiesent omitted, as they are nor partic u l ar l y con eeiled with the stihjea imw under consideration.— "hr , ut proc ee di ng farther upon it at this time, I ~ball merely conclude 11 5 . mottig r " That leave he given to b r i eM g in a Bill f or E sta bli s hi ng and aintaining a Permanent Akiditional Force in this Country, for supplying the Regular . Army, and for the gradual Reduction of the Militia.'! The Motion being put, M. IPINDUAII said, that considering this Plan with reference to what had gone before, he thought there was a great deed of improvement in it, a but.yet th at improvement was not so. great as to. do way his fear a, to its clef ets in many parts, or to afford him a hope that he should be more able to ‘ . gtee to it upon the whole, than the other which it I "P"sed to. supersede. It was, indeed, very na teral,. that, upon such a subjed, difference of opt. nion should arise, and his Righz H. Frien self, wh o now brought this Plan forward on , had foond occasion to differ materially, from that Which he had e stated as his P;an on a former occasion. H was afraid, that his difference, on this occasion, from his Right Hon. Friend, was so f un d amental, t h at it could n ot be cured by any- modification ; and that difference would, therefore, compel him to dissent from this scheme, the reason s of which he would ex plain to the Heuse ; -and lie - was afraid that much difficulty belonged to almost every principle of this sort, becaus e it was a principle flowing out of mixed and d.4cordant materials. He did not say, that he differed from this Plan in every part ; there were certainly some parts which he looked upon with great satisfattion and they were parts to diff er f which would he to 4liar from, hitnself, rom and that trio upon points in which he had the good f o r tune toagree with his Righ t H on. Friend. The points onWhich he ag ree d with the p rei , ent Plan were, as he should state t h em in thei r order. The reduaion o f the Militi a was one; he had girged it, an d so had my is Frie n d s , cn several occasions, for Which tithe y f h been censure d ; but the principle on which the had y pro. ceeded was now. generally approved. .iat art (A ttie Pla n w hi ch .., rot to the reduCtionTl of- bo p unties for th, Arms', had also his approbation ; he thought a great point was gained ‘vhen that system was re. Paced. The system was toll o f evils, which it w a s Sy to foresee, and winch -at last every body felt. Therefore these wcre two material points of which . he app roved, as far,as tfev went to the reduction Or the. Militia, and that of lowering the B oily in providing men. f,r the Army. In any- iv;iy,t! , ese , Plan was Far, two objetts could be accmopli-W. the l ' eu larly welcome to him. But kills) in the-farther her point,'weiich PrVe.ss of this business, he collected from th e se,,e of the observatio'vs made, use of by bit Right Hon. Friend, was to he brought forward, .lie should eiewith pleasure, under such auspices ; he meant that of .a commutation of the' service fyr iite in the Regular ArtriV, by th at o f a service fora term ,. .. ( ? i fye;.r . s„ .iie ~....,a's-si.):fulty convinced rat tree policy of ~ ~. 'Oat . s) steme-thar if he.had not colleaed friirl h i s - : R.Right 1i0n.:14;.. a rtes that he intended to• pro - pose it I.itmell? he sh,, uid have L ne _ sci‘ ,., Having, thus Aouchecl oh • the [fair s o f this plan to which he a.gtee.d.,..he came .now to the less. pleaSa . nt. part of s t ng thoce•in which •he - differed : - and here he Inould take, not a prolix, but a comprehensive 'vieW of the subject; for it w at this as necessary to d o so , was a measure proceeding from a mixture of voluntary and compulsive service. To abo. lisp all the Militia wou!d not he a measure ae c:lding to the opinio n that had so lung prevailed as tn have become almo3t habitual to most men, whic'i 'lle would propose ; but he .felt much pleasure_in assenting to d prop os i t i on f or the reduction of t h at ot - ee. Th e Atmy of Reserve be considered as a bad rneastrie in itself ; but as it was a temporary measure, it was not necessary to dis Cuss it when a P er manent-One Was -und.-r consideration; hut as he !hat onght w e were rowth in a gr eat measure tree fro idm eon,era,v,ri which was so pressing uon us p as to d o a . i ay every other, namely, apprehens of great i mminent and imo-aliate .: danger,'toi b on e provided for on the instant ; whatever might be the effed of it, we might now take a . fair view of the pnlick of permanent measures ; we need not now adopt measures for the present, and leave the futur e to chance, for however great our d anger might still b e, and however the measures hitherto adopted might have been inefficient, vet,certandy, we could not shut our eyes, and he s h ould he very sorr not to op en hi s eyes to see the pre sent situation of f this Couniry, unquestionably now in a much superior state of security to that in which w n the d anger f i rst opened upon us..-- e were whe ta ir F orce was now in a state of training, and, in a great Prepar e d i n d i scipline, and also prepared in mind to meet the Enemy : and therefore our safety was much Letter secured titan it had been ,but then it roust be I:4llembered, that in proptrion to the consciousness w have . ()four security, ought our caution to be, when consider ,nit,orleixcitise from the in g any permanent system, because - we had ".'s• had therek,„ pressure of an immediate danger, This plan .. A., , Proper opportu . nity to deliberate. to‘ fill up the aotied nothing to our force ; it was only and Establishment already subsisting, '` .e we re not to have a man in any mode except that already voted for the permanent establishment of the Country, although this was to be considered as a general plovision for. the permanent establishment (4 t ne" su he bevy.Countr The first question was , Sh a ll t hi s tre oluntary or compulsory, or shall it be a IttiXture of both ? N ow th e great use of a compul "Y. measure was, that it was more speedy and side effeaual than any other ; but here came con erations of great importance, arising from the situation of the Country. It was true,. that Without despotic power, a State may have re co to CW111)(141011 on its Subjetis for the general it ; for a State, however free, must, have power over which there is no contrail. - The power 01 the King o f P russ i a was not greater in his a.,., rtiniuns, than the power of King, Lord s a n d Coin. l in EntnOns gland . Nor was th e power o f the Turkish n ot leg Empire, noro 4i f the E mperor of-the Fretach—a power s than th at of D..spotic G nver nment—cer. Tra.i.nly greater than the power of the Logipslature in this Country. That the Legislature of this Country :ewould , ever do what. these Potentates had done, was ry true ; the power of the Legislature of this --ouritry was equal to the power of any other State, flit the exQrcise of that power was very different i we had not the same facility in•adopting compulsory measures as they had ; ‘ve could not go by the same short cut to our objeCt as they could to theirs. The King of Prussia may say to his Sohjeas, •if he wants ao Army, that he will take the men, without stating any purpose for which he wants them, and the Army must be filled up instantly.; but when we come to operate, we have no such short cur, for we must operate through the medium of-Laws, and by the deliberations of Senates. Their compulsion was short ; ours, from the nature of things, was c i t e. coirons—their compuhion might be made to aim at one objet only ; ours must he attended, even in its rigour, with certain modifications—they had . no thing of this kind to obstruct them, and therefore their Measures, however compulsory, were prompt ; whereas ours could not be so,—and this was a reason why Parliament sh6uld be slow in having recourse to any measure which was either compulsory in itself, or might become so, and the more so, when there was no immediate and absolute necessity for it ; more particularly when the system was to be a mixture of the voluntary and the compulsive ; and in 'this mixture care should be taken that the voluntary did not interfere with the compulsory part of the measure. We gained, by the compul sory measure, nothing but- that _part of the Force we could not have from the Volunteer Service; there was no ballot in thii Plan, nor did it do all ballot away, nor did it create any ballot. The 1 - i ruse must recoiled that by this Plan we should '• be giving up a great number of inert, whom we might have by other means, and that we should g tin only those whom we should have had by-other means, and some of whom we should have had by Recruiting for the general . Ser vice ; • but his Right Hon turabie Friend had observed, that having ob tained men for a limited service, they-would ac. quite Military habits, and a military spirit, which would induce them to enter afterwards into the ge:.eral service. He thought there was a fallacy in this supposition ; they might be more disposed than if they had never been in service, btu it did not fol low that they would be the more disposed to be Sol diers in the general service, nay, some might be the less disposed, on account of having been Sol diers already ; they might sow all their Wild Oats, and might be of opinion that a hOme was better than a foreign station. They would not enter into an ArMy to go abroad, because there was a home Army to receive them, 'so that this was drying up t he fountain of general service by the means pro posed to increase it. The general objeCtion, there fore-, to this Plan was, that it divided our Military Force into two parts, which militated against each other. • "I:he Plan proposed might he described as a recruiting system for the Army by Parish Officers. He rather inclined to think there were some parts of it that might be deemed an improvement, but to the whole of it he could not assent. That it was an Improvement on some part of our modern Military System, was indeed no great praise to any Pldn, for ' that system had actually rendered recruiting impas sible. He therefore approved of the measure which went to diminish the,Bouoties; but it should be re membered, that in all cases under this'measure, the Parish Officers -would go to the full extent of the B''untY's tot they had no inducement to economy, and might to _many instances have an induce. merit directly the other way;and would be excused by the Parish, since it was to be fined in the event 'if not furnishing the men; therefore there Was no hope they would offer less than the limited bounty, nor was it perhaps practicable to prevent them from giving, in some cases, more ; it was not a good set-off, to recruit the Army by Parish Officers, for their civil occupations and habits would not easily. bend to .military purposes. He ridiculed the idea, long entertained-, of the policy of the•bal lotting system, which he thought in its nature de fective, although in the present state of things he would not propose to do it away. He said that when a sonple ploughman or rustic was ballotteti for a military man, it •t ruck h.m like an apeopleetic fir, and it was a common thing to see such a per son running up and down to inquire where a re. cruit could be had, sometimes in one place and some times in another ; he looked about him for a substi tute, like David Simple for a true friend, and could never find him until he met a Crimp; from this source, therefore, no advantage to the service was to be expected. But there was a considerable ohjeCtion to. this System of Parochial Recruiting. He was afraid that a great deal of tyranny might ire exercised under it; a man who had made him. self obnoxious to the Overseer, or perhaps to the 'Squire, might be exposed to a deal of hardship in consequence of this System, out of which great vexation might arise, and these were evils which, he was confident, had not presented themselves to the intelligent and vigorous mind of his Right Honourable Friend, or he would never have made this proposition. As to the probability, that when we had got the men for a limited service, they, might afterwards go into the general service, there was really nothing in it; for men never did, in any considerable numbers, enter into the general service for the reasons assigned by his Right Hon. Friend. The motive which Soldiers had for chang ing from one, Regiment to another, were generally whimsical. One man would say, he would not go into such a Regiment, because it was going to a hot climate, and he wished to go to a cold one: that such a Regiment was going to Gibraltar, whereas he wished to go to Canada—another would say, that he would go into such a Regiment because such a one was Serjeant in it, and he would make him a Corporal, or he would go to such a Re. giment, because it was quartered where Peggy lived. Such were the motives which influenced men of this description in the choice of Regiments; so that there was but little hope to the general ser vice from this Reservoir of the Army of Reserve. As far as it might produce men, he was willing to allow it merit ; but he hoped but little from it ; on the contrary, he was afraid the plan, in this respect, would counteraa itself. By this measure a bounty was to be fixed, beyond which it would be almost sure to rise, when it was to be lamented that any such thing as a large bounty ever took place, for it did not contribute to increase the number of Recruits, but-had a contrary effett. He was old enough to remember when theßounitoyrwiat w s not the o te ly in a d g ue u er ne e a nt : to Recruit to enter, such was the state of things until the system ut high bounties 'put" an end to it, anirtile•Ainfv was a 4 w4l • , •uppil , !(l then at, •Fresent. ; hrtc apother view id •this snljed ) which he thought )rtant, and that was the efFM of our, large' Vo luntary sy,tetri, and our Military. systeni which , vas now aEted upon. To make a Country Mili tary, it was not necessary to make every man it a Soldier. On the contrary, to make every man a soldier was the way to have none. The greatest Military Countries were not those where the men were all sohlieis ; the Countries which were must military, were those who had no Militia, and those that had Militia were the least military ; for this immense mass of Volunteer or ballotted Military tended rather to deaden than to enliven all military habits. The military spirit of a nation was kept up more by those who were not military, than by those who were ; for the spirit of military life was not so much to please the alor as the audience. It was .the applause of the audience that constituted a great portion of the reward, and enlivened the spirit of a military life ; and this was emphatically the case, as far as it regarded one halt of the human race, and that the most important class in it, as far as the in. fluence of applause operated on military ardour—a class that did not join in military toil, but whose approbation of the achievements was the greatest inducement to undertake military enterprize—he meant the women. It was their approbation that excited men to run the risks and endure the toils - . of military life ; this approbation must be dimi nished in proportion as a military occupation was common, and it was common in prnportion as it had . a mass of Volunteer and Ballofted Forces. He was, therefore, so far from considering these Vo. lunteer and Ballotted Force from making a military people, that the system was a dead weight in the scale against that objed ; and he was afraid that the evil of this system was general, and would operate as the air does, continually. We had got into a system by which we had surrounded and almost concealed the whole of our Regular Force. As to plans of Military Force, his plan would be to have none at all except ooe, and that was to change the condition of the service from a service for life to that of a term of years.—Why, then, should Parliament be working its brains up with the considerations of machinery which was not wanted, and which was doubtful as to its opera tion in the best, and destrudive in many views ? What had they to do in this matter ? Nothing more than to remove all the ohstruling causes to the Recruiting of the General Service. The way to do that was to put an end to the competition whim the Recruiting of the General Service had to encounter. There was nothing in our Constitu tion which prevented the Recruiting for the General Service. 'We had, until the modern system of large Bounties and Ballots, the Regular Service easily provided for. It was not from the state of our Popo_ lation that we now wanted men, for the Population had increased ; it was not for the want of money, for we had certainly more money now than ever ;, besides this, he considered that the present noet,,,,_ tion of trade, from the spirit of adventure, was very favourable to recruiting, if due advantage was taken of the circumstances which ffiesented themselves ; but men would not go - into a General Service for a low Bounty, while they could go into a limited Ser vice with a large one ; and he rtionght, there might he some facility, if due advantage was taken of it, in raising men for the . Atmy, when, notwi t h stan di ng all our•wealth, it appeared that we were; paying five miliions a year to the Poor Rates ; an ;t he could not help 'thinking. it odd that we shoul4 be laying out several thousands a year upon a system to prevent emigratitoi - from Scotland, on aceinnot of the difficul. ties - of subsistence in scone pao ts there, and yet should , have such difficul.y in procuring men for the Army; besides this, we had given to the Peiiple a love for the parade of out Voluntary and Balloting , System, and high Bounty, that they would not re turn to the old and economical mode of raising a Military Force by moderate Bounties ; . that the bulk of men were ;tow like the lover in The Appren. rice, who, wheat he is told that the door is open, and he may run away with his love, declines that easy course, because it sets aside the use of his ma chinery, and says, " If I go out of the door, what Will become of my 'scape ladder ?" So with us, we were making use of our escape ladders, when the door was open and we might walk out. There' was nothing to do in the way of Plan, but to avoid all, except that of changing the duration of the service to a term of years, instead of being for life, and that of doing away the high Bounties and those measures by which a competition was cleated. Fsr these reasons, he could not help thinking, that a great part of the Plan of his Right Hon. Friend was so cbjeetionable, that he should be under the neces sity of opposing it. Mr. JOHNSTON expressed his astonishment, that after the House and the Country had been told, the ignorance and incapacity of the late Ministers was such, that the Country was in danger by their con tinuance in power, that the Right Honourable Gen tleman who had succeeded, and had been now a considerable time in power, had proposed no better measure than that of carrying into effed the measures of his Predecessors, for so he conceived thie to be. Mr. ADDINGTON said, he differed consider :Hy with the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT), but was not at the same time friendly to the opinions expressed by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. WINDHAM). The strong objedion he felt origin ally to the Plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Pier) was, that it was of compulsory cliarader ; and under the Free Constitution under which we lived, we ought not to expect that which • I only belonged to Despotic Governments ; they must make up their minds not to exped to ingraft upon that Constitution anomalies which were wholly foreign to it. The present Plan, however, .was not in every respect similar to that last proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. PITT); but at the same time, with tesped to the augmentation of the Militia, he still remained of opinion that it was a wise measure, and he was sorry to hear of any proposal for a redudion of that description of farce- Jr was also to be observed, that the Militia had , been chiefly kept up by means of Substitutes dt'awn 1 ' from Volunteer Corps. This Force was altogether of so advantageous a nature o that he could not con. sent to its redudion, unless something better was 1 propusedin,its. stead, An unexampled ioice had , i.t 4 . ,ai been taiseo t:IC . . cliir-renccf in 4.. in Recinoing sc t , Aimy* inn du- , rg the iasr , :w.-1: - !ot:ttbil city co one_f :nrcentll, — zie., l . Ocref, c Rrove that there was : any presstr.z.nrc , ssiry f a mc.a3ure, to expelite the RF!crUit_ng kr-rvicea Cut of the Army of R(f, , erve, ,t 3 ocp 'l..tred) cal into ; the_ Regniar dod of the rettlainini 17 or 18 j 003 men, thty. nvg it 1.),k, propnrtion f,r the same service. U ,I,‘r circumstances, he should hope that the House would r ! or agree t o. ;tic; me,,otre Right Honourahle Gentleman (Vlr. 'On), at, this season of the year;, Out if the, House detamined that the BM shoUld he brought in, and no, sur should not Aka to it, he e• ;r read a first time; that the second reading would be put off to next Session, and that ri , ) latiher discus sion might be had uon it during the resent Ses • sion. He was the more inclined to pre,s this, as there was no itnmediate necessity for its adoption, . _ and there was much reison to apprehend that the measure might prove either nugatnry, or vexatious and yppressive. It appeared something similat to the Quota Ad of last War, which , sy large expence, without producing any real advan. cage. He concluded by , observing, that he should defer, till the secand reading, any farther ohjection which he might have against the Bill. Lard C 1 .41 , , RE AG 11 combatvd the olsj , >Aions of the Right Itna. Gentleman (Mr. WINDHAm), whose observations, he contended, did 0,4 by any means practically apply to the mlitary system of the C,,untiy, as it was evident that the rf!. cruising system could not have suoplied a S uffi cie n t force within the time in which that force was A anted. It wits necessary, therefore, to ingraft upon -that system•another, for the Defence of the Coun_ tty, and a lArge augmentation of the Militia, tt.ge titer with the creation of anArmy of Reserve, he cante of sound policy ; but upon no uritlci. plc would it ever be Fit tic' to add to the force des- tined for limited service. The 0 , 4 nary o f t h ! Plan of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. PITT), upo which he might have any &not was, let tin g t h • Militia run to waste for a year, whilst the Army of Reserve was becoming applicable to its intenrle purpose. The Right HAI. Gentleman (Mr. WIND HAM) had argued as to what might have been de rived from Recrui!ing, had no such limited For. been established ; but when the nwnher derived from Recruiting, with this impedirp-,:nt, was compar ed with that usually derive.; from that source, • the difference made nothin , ; in favour of the Right lion. Gentleman's argument. 1-k could not see ;tray thing in the propose %1 Plan which called for the de lay proposed by ',is Right Hon. Friend (Mr. AD- D NGToN).,,. The measure was, on the contrary, less severe that ptopo , ed by his Right H able Friend (Mr. ADDINGTON), as it relieved the 'parishes from the fine ot 201. upon finding the ?.ecruit. He thought, therefore, that his Right Hon. Friend must feel the measure to be distinWy of a mild nature. He had always been of opinion th,t it would be highly advantageous to keep up an Army of Reserve, as they might then have a permanent re ,ource, convertible into a Regular Aunt ar the corn. mencetnent of a War. lie had also always been of opinion, that for such an Army they should have Officers more experienced than Militia Officers in neral were. Tito main question, with respta to the present measure was, Whether they would not try to get the met , from the -I' ishes, who, it they pro vided them, would be exonerated from fines ? The Right Hon. Gentleman (Vlr. WI NDHAm) had oh. j:.ctral that it would convey. the Parisi) Offi,ers into Recruiting Officers ; hut, at any rate, if the tne,sure produced no gud, it could di no harm, and co u ld not be su onerous as where the option of producing the man instead of paying the money, was nut given. Sir IVILLIAM GEARY objected generally to raising so large a Force for limited service, which, he contended . , destroyed the fair and regular means of recruiting for the Army. Mr. FOX said, he did not know whether he should gain credit with the House, when he said that it had been his wish to concur in the present measaire,be cause from the person who brought it forward, be thought much was to be expected ; hut he must say, that the present measure by no means came up to his ideas upon the subjed. He would nor now go into his objeftions to the Bill, but, in his opinion, there was one radical objection to the principle of the proposed measure. He conceived it to be a bad mode of defenceOto establish a limited force for the purpose of making a foutidation for an unlimited force. He would not enter into the question, how far a Militia - might be useful ; but he ohjL'eteit altogether to the principle of having s limited for c e for the purpose of making out of it att unlimited one. lie could certainly conceive that a man who had passed his youth in unlimited service, would retire, as it were, into another force destined only for the Defence of the Country ; but he could not conceive that a man, being first engaged for limited services . , to be a good preliminary to his entering into gene ral service. Whatever might be his objections to the Plan, he was of opinion that if the Right Hon. Gentleman was ready, he could not do better titan press the measure itt the present Session, and that the House would be obliged to him to use all con. venient speed upon such a subje6t. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, as there appeared no intention to press an oppo. sition to the measure, he should not n w enter-at large into the subject; but there were some points to which he could not help adverting. In the first place, with regard to what had been said gout rais ieg men for a limited time, he begged to say, tha: considering that measure upon generaiprinciples, it certainly met with his approbation, and he should be much gratified, if upon investigation, it should pear t► be practicable. Alf he could say at present was, that it it were proposed, it should meet, on the part of His Majesty's Ministers, with the m , sc ample and dispassiosate consideration. His Right Eon. Friend (Mr. W NDH AMY nad stated several ob. jeUions to his plan ; and one was, that it would in. tertere with Rectuiting; but his Right Hon. Filen , ' must be aware that the Recruiting System, it left to itself, would not be.snili,oent to supply our RegulAc Army ; it was therefore necessary to have recou s e to other and more effectual measures, not in lioeu, but in aid of Recruiting. His Right Hen. Friend secutd