The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-14 00:00:00

say, that no catsitlerations as to tht -influence such Clause have upon her fltte nottld restrain him tioin proposing %shin he shouid Llecin just and salutary, and concluded by re peating, that his Z,lotion should be binthe specialities °I the Laie, and not upon general principles. Lord MuL.c R E spoke shortly in explanation. The D.vke of CLARENCR observed, upon what he , felt to be the iinpropriety of ins entering into a discussion of the points in question, after what had been so ably advanced by Noble and Learned Lords upon the subject. His Koyal Highness seenir.cl to express lus surprise at the doubts started by a Noble Marquis on . 4 former evening, and his opinion that the difference' bctw,:cn void and voidable, was so very small, as to be scarcely worth arguing. 'With, respect to the particular Clause in question, we,understoixt the Royal Duke to express his dis.pprobAtion of it. . • . The House then divided, when taereappeared For Lord Av CKLAN.D'S CiAUSO - 20 ApirLil it - 9 Majority On our re--entering the House,. Lord MULGRAYE was addressing their Lordships, and seemed to Argue for the propriety ot, postponing the Order respeaing Mrs. ADDISON ,o S Divorce Bill, or at least de terring the Debate upon it until the Third Reading. The DUKE V - CL/IRESC.E shortly expressed his hostility to the Bill in question, which he said was founded upon prin ciples of Morality and Religion, and concluded with moving, that the Order for the second reacting of the Bill be -discharg ed, in order (as we understood His Royal Highness) to ac commodate certain Noble and Lea rued - Lords, who wished to deliver their sentiments. [We regret that a temporary press of variously interesting matter precludes trs from stating the observations of -those Noble Lords who spOke after His Royal Highness, on -this novel and very buly:tam subject: We are restricted to a very general outline.l The Earl of ROSLtS 'spoke with great ability upon the case of Mrs.., ADDISON, whom he deemed worthy of the. at tention,of the Legislature,: and.considered it proper that their Lordships, though they should not go the full length - of granting a Parliamentary Divorce, should endeavour to admi nister every &gee of'practicable redress. . The Lord CUANC,'ELLOR seemed to express nearly similar Legislature with respect to what should be the concluel of the on the occasion, and was in favour of the Bill Doing to a COmmittee. - . • The DUKE Ji*CI.AREN'cE spoke ably in explanation. L9rd AUCKLAND adverted-principally to the great diffi culty and entbarrassinent of the question, and with great candour alluded to those considerations which pressed on either side. He argued, however, against the assumption which seemed to be determined, t hatin going to a Committee Upon the Bill, all istra of ParliaMentary Divorce was given up t on that point he was yet undecided, but was peace - 11y open to convielion when . theday of discussion should arrive. - Alter seine farther conversation, the Order for the Second - Reading of the Bill was ,deterred till Monday, at Three o'Clock arid after discussing the remaining. Orders of the. Day, their Lordship's adjourned till to.-rnorrow. 110 USE OF t'OIIIMONS. WEDNESDAY, MAY 13. Koope's Straw. Paper ManufaCtory Bill, and the Poor Rate Assessment Bill,' were read a first time. The Militia Adjutants' Bill was read the third time - and' as ed. The House resolved itself into a Committee, to ,consider of the MI 31 Geo. 111. cap. 39, resped ing Seamen. 'Mr. BU/DON proposed that a.specifie time should be agreed on for signing the agreement be twixt Masters and Seamen, with a view to prevent Seamen from making an exorbitant demand of Wages previous to sailing. `I-fe therefore proposed a Reso lution to this efted, " That it was the opii.ion of the Committee, that it would tebd.to the benefit of 'the CoaSting Trade, if the . Master of a Coasting vessel was made liable to a certain penalty for every Seamanhe carried out to Sea, without having made an agreement with such Muiner, within twenty four hours before such vessel could proceed to. Sea s,and•such Seaman as had not signed thissagreement,• or had quitted the service before the expiration of -the contract, should nor be entitled to sue for wages, •or to the benefit or said Mi." Mr. W. DUNDAS said, he did not think this Res6lution would remedy the evil. complained of, and thought it more advisable that a Committee be, -first appoint.cd to inquire into the Coasting Trade of the Cbuntry, and then; for Resolutions to be . btough; in upon the. Report of such Committee. General GASCOYNE express - v(1 his approbation of the meastire, and of the Resolution proposed. Mr. DENI, Mr. JEFFREY, and Sir 137 V. ELFORI), approved of the suggestion of appoint ing a Committee to enqiiire into the Coasting Trade. • Mr. M. A. ; TAYLOR supported Mr. Boa ooN in the Resolution he had proposed, and particularly as he thought its tendency, if adopted,_ would be to reduce the price of Coals.. • Mr: JONES approtied of the Resolution on the same aecount. He remarked, that there had been a Committee 'appointed for. neatly 'twelve months, respeEting,Coals, and hitherto they had effeCted no thing,-as to a redudion of price. • - The SPEAKER sug gested' the propriety of the Chairman's leaving t he Chair, and reporting pro gress, that Gentlemen might - in the mean while . consider the subjcd. tie thoUght the Law on the subjed as it now stood, required an alteration, and that a.measute of the nature of the one now propos.' et!, would be advisable. This suggestion being adopted, the Chairman ac. cordingly reported progress, and asked leae to sit again. It• was then agreed that the Committee should sit again on Wednesday next. Mr. ADDINGTON gave notice, that he. should • move to.morrow for the appointment of a Selea Committee, to inquire into the Laws respelling Salt. He also took the opportunity of giving notice, that . in the Committee of Ways and Means On Monday rcxt, he meant to propose certain Taxes to replace those which had been taken off Pepper , expor tett, and anted Linens. Lord Fla.witEsourv. brought up the King's Pro clamation, and SUndri Papers-relative to , the Island of Grenada, which had been previously moved for IV Mr. ttISHINGION, and which were ordered to be refetred"to the Committee on the Petition of the Proprietors of the Island of Grenada. • WAYS AND MEANS FOR IRELAFD. The Order of the Day being read for a Commit tee of Ways and Means ; on the Motion that the SPEAKER leave the Chair, Mr. 0'1.1.1R4 wished to have the nature and objeet of the measure proposed explained. The SPE/10R advised the Hon. Gentleman to defer his observations till the House went into a commit tee. _ The Sr E AKER havirt left the Chair, Mr. CORRY said, It was not his intention to move for a perpetual Grant in the Bill of Supply, as the Hon, Gentleman had supposed, but he proposed to move certain Resolutions for the increase of the St; imp Duties, to cover the Sueplies `of the year granted for the Service of Ireland ; they were fcw in number, and small in .amount, and for a limited rime, to the zstli , of March .18oz.. He then moved, that on every Contrail, Bond, executed in Ireland, .containing a Condition for the payment of Money,Yot exceeding tool.- an ad-. ditionAl Stan - 1p DutY of is. 6d. ; 'on every : such- Bond, &c. not exceeding zoo). an additional Duty of 25. 6W ; on such Bond from zoo), to Soot. an additional DUty of ss. ;from cool. to 10001. an ad ditional Duty of -15 s. ; from- wool, 'to 30001. the sum of II.; and above 50991. the additional Duty of 21. Also, - on every Foreign or Inland Bill of Exchange, Draft, or Order, -not exceeding 301. the Duty of 3d. ;, froth 301. to tool; the sum of 6d. ; and above tool..• the additional SUM' of is. in Irish Currency. Mr. CORRY ,also moved, that upon all Insurance - of Goods, Wares; &e. on sums insured above tool. an additional Duty be imposed of 3s. 6d. Sir 3. PARNEL -objected to laying any'addi tional Duty upon Insurance; it tended- to cramp the commerce of Ireland, at the same time that the measure proposed, was not in order to raise" a revenue, 'but as a matter of regulation. Mr. CORRY. differed in opinion from the Hon. Baronet. The fad was, that the foreign Insurance was all done in this Country, and with respell to tha Coasting Trade ) the Insurance was very trifling, nor could he apprehend that the 'small additional Duty proposed, would eause . any impediment to the commerce of Ireland. He' trusted that the indul gence granted to Ireland in this - first Session of the Imperial Parliament, with tesped to. the tending of wines and sugar, would convince Ireland of the attention which Parliament had shewn to its inter,. ests. He could'not consent to abandon his MotiOn, which had for its object, to aid the collection of the Revenue here, as well . as that of Ireland. Sir 3.- PARNEL repeated that he did not think that laying on an additional Duty to prevent the increase of Insurance in Ireland, would be ad vantageous to commerce or revenue. Mr. ROSE said, .he saw no good reason why there should be a Tax on Insurance in one Country, and not in another. The Resolutions were then put, and carried, and, the House bring resumed, the Report was brought up, and ordered to be received to-inorrow. Mr. BRAGGE brought up the Report of the Com mittee on the Portugal Wine Warehouse Bill ; when a Bill was ordered to be brought in pursuant to the Resolutions of the Committee.. CLERGY EXCLUSION BILL. Mr. ADDINGTQN moved the Order of the Day, for the House going into a Committee on the Bill ler removing Doubts respceling 'Persons in Holy Orders sitting in - that Ruse. M. V ANS ITT ART said, he had a Petition to present 'against the Bill by Mr. Rushworth, so far as it affeaed ,his individual rights. Mr. ADDINGTON said, he was not disposed to oppose the bringing up.of this Petition, although he believed that•a similar one was not to be foutid on the Journals of the House. The . Petitioner stat ed his right of sitting in Parliament was established by the decision of a Committee, but he could only assert his right to sit . in that Parliament in which the:CoMmittee established his right, He appre hended Mr. RuShWerth's interest was not such as to give him any claim upon this Parliament to receive his, Petition, at the same time, as he wished there might be afaciliry in the House receiving Petitions, and as this Petition - was couched in ..respectful lan guage, he would not objeet to its being,brought up. Mr. HORNE TOOKE thought that Mr. Rush worth was justified in vresenting, and . the House in receiving his Petition. The :present proceeding' was important and unexampled, for it ought to be considered that it affected the rights of a nume rods. body olmen, distinguished from other bodies, who -enjoyed their incomes only for their lives, whilst they paid ten per cent.-Income Tax, the same as those who possessed Freehold Estate. Mr. ADDINGTON observed, that Rush worth did not_ petition on behalf.of the Clergy, but because of his own particular case. . . The Petition was then brought up and read : It stated that the Petitioner, Edward Rushworth, Esq. was above twenty-one years . ago ordained Deacon, but that he had never performed the duties of that Office above iWo months, and that he had since relinquished them entirely ; that he was elefted a Meinber for Newport in the Isle of Wight, and when his Ele}ion was petitioned against, .a Commit tee had declared him duly eledcd, and that he had continued to sit in the House till the dissolution of Parliament in 79Q; and praying that the proposed Resolution,, declaring the Clergy ineligible' ia a Seat - in Parliament, so far as related to his right; might not receive the sanCtion of the House.—The. Petition , was ordered to be laid on the Table. Mr. ADDINGTON said, he wouldmove that : it be an inst'rulion to the Committee to make prpvi_ sion to extend the regulations .of the Bill to ithe Clergy of 'the Church of Scotland, by Law esta blished. On the Motion for the SFEAttes. leaving ,the Chair; Mr/ JUL IFTE said, there•appeared to him'so little reason for this measure, and so much against it, that he must objet. to it ;n toto. It became ne. cessary to enquire, first of all, what were the quail. fications proper for a map to become a Legislator, and what the disqualifications. The qualifications Were learning, study, the knowledge Of languages, history, &c. and who possessed these more than the Clergy, Qr who were there whose lives were more exemplary ? li;LI Gentlemen of the Army, Navy, or Law, more of these qualifications than Gentle. men in Holy Piders ? But it . was olijeded, that Clergymenwere liable to the in fluence of the Crown —and might not the same be objected. against' Offi cers of the Army and Navy ? But though the Crown could nominate to Deinrias,andCanonries, it could not take them away, when once. grant ed, althoughit might take away a Regiment from an Officer, so that this ol3jeaion operated less against the Clergy than - against Military Officers. It had also been objeCted that the Priestly charader was indelible ; but he could not'conceive how this objedion, could be ma intained, or how, upon this ground . , more objedions could be made against Clergymen sitting in tbe.House of Commons, than Bishops sitting in the House of Lords, Mr. MARTIN said it was incumbent on Ciergy. men to attend to the duties of their Parishes, and of Members of Parliament regularly , to attentrthOir duty in it. He should therefore vote for the SpEAKL : R'S leaving the Chair, and for the passing of this Bin. The SPEAKfit having left the atdr, and the House in a Committee, on the Motion that the Preamble be postponed, . Mr. H 6 / 2 /V,E TOOKLsaid he meant to propose the omission - of several clauses, and only to propose the addition of one. He felt the civility of the Right Hon. Gentlernan who' had - introduced the Bill, and acknowledged his personal . obligations to him for the form in which he,had introduced it.— The'addition he meant, to proposevOs to place him self in the same situation with every other person who had been ordained, for otherwise there would be an inconsistency after - the HouSe had determined that the introduction of Persons in Holy Orders ought not to be permitted, if he mere suffered to sit in it till the expiration of. the present Parliament. He desired no exemption in - his favour, and rather wished to See the, consistency of the House presefv. ed. With regard to the omissions he should.pro pose, if adopted, they would save him r the trouble of discussinz the sentiments of a Right• Honorable and Learned Gentleman W,SCoT-r) whose ideas respelling the indelibility of the Priestly charatier,, appeared to him more romantic than 4ny thing he had ever read in the Arabian Night's Entertainments.— With the omit - sit:ln he should propose the firit-r.lause . should run thus 7 -: . 7 " if any person haying been Ordain ed to the Office of TrieSt, or ;Deacon should hereafter he eleCted, or, being' elefted, should. continue to sit or vote in Parliament, he-should henceforth be in_ capable of holding any benefice or any Office of trust or emolument tinder the Crown." If Cler gymen had such a disqualification - staring them in the face, he believed the House would not be much troubled with Ecclesiastical Candidates. A Bill running in this -fesin-ulltlLe—kloissr...going into questions which it 'was not competent to dis cuss. . Ecclesiastical questions had been .always in the first instance discussed by Bishops and Convo cations, before brOught imr.o Parliament, and till they had agitated this question of the indelibility of the Clerical charaCter, it . would be veiy,unseemitig for a Lay House of Commons to decide upon it. The learned Dr. Campbell of Aberdeen, in his second vol. of ChUrch History, had entered very ably, he thought more than it' deserved, into this question, but he did' not -suppose - the Members 61 that House cared much about it. It would appear- strange in deed, if, the friends and the foes of theelericAl Order, were to unite to stigmatise that Order as if they had done something to deserve a stigmatised exclusion from the HouSe. He' wishedd r the preamble to the Bill to be postponed; and' that the 'House goon to consider Clause by Clause. "Mr. Tooxs then moved, that the words " declared-and;"che omitted, because if these words . were introduced; it would make the Bill - appear as a declararory ACt, which would 'be .declaring what the Law was at the time the At passed ;, but this was not really the case. - Lo-d HAWKEiSPURY said, that tho s e who thought as he did, that, taking all circumstances' together, 'the Law as it now stood, rendeied-Cler gymen ineligible. previous. to, the passing of. this Aft, would certainly approve'of:this Bill in its pre sent form, making.it partly declaratory,_ and partly .enading 3 which was an usual Parliamentary mode of urocceding. .X.fr ADDINGTON confessed that he saw some force-in the objeCtion stated tothe Bill, in its pre : sent form, - by the Hon. GeritleMaii. • :I:heiv was qm - awkwardness in combining a ,declaration with that which was meant to be :prospective. He would agree, therefore, 'to make this -an enifting Clause, and to leave out the words " declared and.'' The SPEAKER was of opinion that- all the pmr pose of the-Legislature would be answered -by mak ing it simply an enaaing Clause. -He thought this would be preferable to any - thinafittitarry, as :it was not the purpose of the Hou§d to db - aurthing prospeetivelY. Dr. LAWRENCE said, - he belierettprecedents were to be found of Clauses pArtly,dectairatory and, partly enafting, and if there werebut one such, he was unwilling to give up the present-tlause, as it: served to maintain 'a .dihtinaion betweefi the Clergy and Laity. . . • - The SOLICITOR, GENERAL did not think that the propOsed ornision would have the eireet of abandoning. what seemed. to be the opinion of the majority of the House, as to the Ineligibility of Clergymen to sit in it. The Preamble wot4d state that certain doubts were entertained, and the. Law s would tend to remove these doubts in future. Upon. the whole, he approved of the proposed otniisiun, and the more so, as it would remove any ground for applying it specifically to the case of any indivi dual. _ Sir W. YOUNG and Dr. LAW R ENCE were both. in favour of the idea of having the Bill considered as a Deelaratciry Bill. • • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sig nified his wish to retain the Word "declare," to that the Bill should be - deemed a Declaratory Bill ; but this he wished to . be done without affeeting the Seat of any Member in the House at the time of pasiing it, and upon that there did appear to be a consider. able difficulty in the wording of the Bill. He be. lieved it was almost universally the opihion of the Members of the House of Commons, that a person in Holy Orders, whether - Priest or Deacon, was in_ eligible to a Seat in that House, and that a Bill ought to pass to exclude them in future ; but he belierzd it was also a ' , yeti) , general opinion that such Bill ought only to have a prospeaive effea, and should not operate on the Seat ..of any Member at present in the House, because that was an ex post faao measure, of which the s Legislature in general were not fond. He felt a desire that she Bill should be declaratory, and yet there was some difficulty in making it so with grammatical precision, when its operation was upon future cases only. He suggested this, tint the Members of the Committee might turn it in their minds. Mr. BURTON said, he %vas for omitting the word " declare," not becau , e he had the least doubt o 1 the Ineligibility of Clergymen sitting in that llouse,--He w . 4s clearly, of opinion, that by th e ancient usage a Pagliamcnt, no - Clergyman had a 1 right to a Seat iniltiCHSuse ; 'for 'hift); and those who agreed with him, no Declaratory Law was wanting but his observation was nut' founded on the critical observations which had been made, in which however he agreed, but on a diffi culty which he did not know how to get rid of.— Their Constituents would probably think, that that • House was, by this Declaratory Law, abandoning their right of determ,ination in a Judicial Question respeding the privitege of tie House or Connnona, and therefore changing that which , -applied , to the rights of all the Commons of England, a right which had hitherto been exclusively exercised by that House, and that by this measure the House.of Coin.„ mons was about to-refer that question, which had so been tionsidered exk;asively their right to deter mine, to be. judged of by another House of Parlia .ment, another Branch of the Legislature ; for, not_ withstanding it - should be the unanimous opinion of that House,. that it was the right tit that Utilise, _exclusively, to judge of the Eligibility c f its Members ; and, .notwithstanding the.. House should be unanimously of opinion,. that nu 'Clergy_ man should have* a right . to sit io that House ; after. this . Bill passed in the House, and . was decla ratory of its Rights, yet • the whole of ,that declara tion, and the provision by which it was accompa nied, might be overturned by a majority of One in the House of Lords. He had always understood that all _questions of Privilege, especially the right of ting in that House, have been claimed and exercised as a right exclusively belonging to the House ioelf,. on which. subjea the. Ho us e ? had expressed extreme jealousy very often • when any -interference was at. • tempted . by.,another Power or Branch of the Legis lature. He. therefore regretted iliat this question, which ought to have been exclusively judged of by the Commons, should of necessity, for so the matter stood now, be sent to be judged of by the House of Lord's.. lie lamented*, because he did not kno w . how they could word the Bill, so as to convince their Constituents that they did not give up that question of Privilege which hitherto had solely been judged of by the House of Commons. He agreed to omit the word "declare," because there was danger in-sub_ mitting that to the judgment of any other Tribu. nal. Mr. TAYLOR did not see so much danger in t 1 House allowing its power to be judged by another branch of the Legislature, as the Learned .gentle+ man - who spoke last seemed to apprehend : there was a- precedent . for that in the passing of what is called Mr.,Gßtery ttur's Bill, which -was. a Bill for determining on Contested Elections. Before. that Bill the H ouse it s orjudged of all these Eleftions, ,and judged exclusively ; but he' could not give up t h e word " declare" in this .Bill. If this was not a Declaratory Ad he, knew not what it was, nor did he know what-was a Declaratory Act if this be not se. If not a De,:laratory Act, it must be what 1 the House. disavowed, a, dibiranchistment. In a word, the word " declare" was descriptive of the essence of the Bill ; 'and as to the idea of not affea ins the Seat of any Member at the time of passing 'the' Bill, he had no objeion to that, and rather than give - up the wont ". declare," he would have a Proviso, -for the purpose of preventing the Bill from haytnr any effect - on the Seat of - any Member in iFellOuse at . i Mr. BAKER thOughl that would bring on a dispute which the good sen se o f t h e House had hitherto excluded from its 'consideration, namely, that' of a personal .quesiion,--r. 'Nora was elected ; and this Bill could not affect his. Seat in this Parliarrierit ; it would operate on him as on every -other Clergyman in the .next Pitillament,: - bUt not in this. Mr. ALEXANDER said, he.felt the ward very necessary in this Bill, because that was the only i word by which the Public could, be assured that the Biif was founded : on the antient"Comnion Law 0t . ,,, the Land, and he had no doubt of-thp.-ineligibilily oTClergymeti to sit in that Housetii - ihat Commoa Lag.. :., *.' .: ' - • - . - APerSTURGES saw considerable difficulties in t4eworigng of this - part oftheitill, nor ,lid he like to refer to the House of Lorcts ; a4 question tespcaing the . Privileges of the Commons, but at present that was unavoidatte. ' , . .. The. CHANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER said, that no. man . felt less inclination thou be did to refer to aby - trolly but to the House itself,• :any question on its Privilege ; . but. that was utl• avoidable in this case, , as it had , been in many others, ind among' the - i'es`t," the_ Bill for settling Contested Eleaions, commonly called Mr. Git Es. i. , it. t. i'S Bill, and so must every Al of Parliament ia which any, part of the .Privileges of the House - might come incidentally under consideration. He should have been extremely glad if the House, from itt own intrinsic authority, , could determine this mat. ter ; but k reference to the journals of the House, would satisfy any body who chused to examine them, th'at such a thing was absolutely impossible. A Resolution of - the House itself would not be per. petual, for it might be rescinded in : mother Parli a , ~ incur ; so that a Bill was absolutely necessary ; now i - it was well known that a Bill could not be had hi:: !, by the cooperation' of the other , Branches of eAc Legislature.. If the declaratory part of the 133 could be retained, and the - inconvenience of de. }riving an individual of thefseat he now had coalA be avoided, he should rejoice at it ; hut there tiii • - - to him . appear to ,be Some difficulty in accomplish. ing both °Ned's.. . Mr. WHITBREAD thought the result of the arguments on this subjeet was not so clear as sow imagined it, aS to the Ineligibility of Person s it Holy Orders sitting in that House ; he thoti , N they ought not to.sit there, and therefore he thouDi ' that a Bill . was necessary. T 4 SPEAKER said, it seemed to him there was a strong . &Sire for doing two things th at w oe actually. inconsistent with each other, a declay. place .in the that - where the delaratory part was to B to i ry ll,; a;itl iid ; d enafting part - at the same do nothing. Now, to do that, which when done, would .be to ito purpose,. would be unbecoming of Ole - house' of Coalitions —Retaining t h e D t , claratory Pair, and at .the same time pro v iai n si that the Hdn. Gentleman who, because in H o ly. Orders, was ineligible, should not be affeeled i n hill seat in this Parliament, would involve the ij ous e in an absu r dity, because it would be permit t i ng i . Person to sit who was declared to be inclisita k , to i , - .