The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-11 00:00:00

[ of the Bill had recognised the principled of setetiula A, and had by that means admitted that the system of Government in the country, by the means of nomination boroughs, could not go on. It was equally title that they considered the nomination boroughs blots on the Constitution, and that they ought to be de stroyed, and after the recognition of such principles by th e House of Peers, could the House really believe the people of the country would have stood out upon the question whether schedule A should be the first or the tenth clause of the Bill? He considered the course adopted by the Ministers as calculated to increase instead of assuage the excitement that at present existed in the country ; and, in his opinion, if there ever were men who ought to have avoided placing the country in a state of confusion, it was his Majesty's Ministers. For the reasons lie had stated, therefore, he could not agree with the first resolution, which called upon that House to express unabated confidence in his Majesty's Ministers. He passed the second resolution by, as it contained nothing but what might be readily acceded to. But with respect to the third resolution, he never could coincide with it, as it called upon the House to pledge itself to allow no modification of the Bill. Was such a course be would ask befitting the House of Commons to pur. sue ? Was it consistent with the deliberate functions of the House of Lords? Certainly not. The question was a question solely between the two Houses of Parlia ment, and the adoption of such would be highly improper. With respect to the last resolution, he could look upon it in no other light than as a dictation to the Crown of the course it ought to pursue—(Tremendous cheering)—and telling his Majesty that he was bound to do all in kis power to effect unimpaired, in all its essential provisions, the Bill for the Reform of the Representa tion of the people, which had recently passed that House. It called also upon the Crown to appoint those persons as Ministers who would pledge themselves to carry the Bill. Ile considered such dictation to the Crown highly im proper and unconstitutional, and such as never could tie tolerated in the House.—( Hear.) If he wanted autho rities on the subject, they were to be found in abundance. In 1807, his Majesty required from Lords Grey and Grenville an assurance that they would not, during their continuance in office, propose certain measures, and the answer which the Noble Lords then gave was, that they would not fetter themselves with any preliminary pledge upon any public measure, but would leave themselves to act as the exigency of circumstances might require. How did that coincide with the view which the House of Commons took of pledges of that nature embodied in its resolutions? It was resolved, "that the House, feeling the necessity of a firm and stable government at that crisis, expressed its deep regret, that a change had taken place in his Majesty's Ministers, and that this has been greatly increased by the circumstances to which it has been ascribed ; that it is contrary to the first, duties of the responsible Ministers of the King to restrain themselves by any pledges, expressed or implied, from submitting to his Majesty, faithfully and truly, what they feel the immediate exigencies of the case, the honour of the Crown, and the welfare of his Majesty's dominions." —(Loud cries of Hear, from the Ministerial Benches.) Contrast that with the following resolution recom mending his Majesty to form no Government but such as would carry into effect entire, in all ita essential provisions, that Bill for the Reform of his people, which has recently passed this House.—(Hear.) If his Majesty sent that resolution before the formation of any Government, requiring, under all circumstances, an adherence to the principles and details of the Bill, he asked whether any one could accept office. No man could do otherwise than as Lords Grey and Grenville did, who would not bind themselves by any preliminary pledge. By pre senting that resolution now, the House would call on the Crown to impose what was unconstitutional, in re quiring from those who entered into its service any pledge as to the future course of their conduct. It would dictate besides to the Crown not only the prin ciples, but the persons of Government. He was afraid that if that Bill was carried, or a Government was formed pledged to its provisions, there would be disposition enough in the people to encroach on the prerogative of the other branches of the Legislature ; their fondest anticipations would be re alized, and they would become too powerful for any de liberative assembly. On these grounds he concurred with his Hon. Friend in giving his decided negative to their resolutions.—(Cheers.) • Mr. O'CONNELL said the Right Honourable Gentleman had commenced his speech by deprecating Re form, and ended by expressing an apprehension lest the people should have power in their own House. He was glad that that declaration bad been made openly, because it showed some might attempt to delude the people : no hopes of any Reform coed be obtained under him.— (Hear, hear.) There was one circumstance he regretted as to the course he had adopted on the Reform Bill, which was, that he had given his vote for so high a fran chise as the ten-pound one.—(Hear.) And he believed if the result of the conduct of the other House was to bring the Bill again into that House, the people would get a much larger Reform. The resolutions pro posed had his hearty sanction ; they amounted to a de claration of confidence in Ministers, which was founded on their conduct in having given their late advice to their Siiivereign. That was their meaning. He agreed heartily in the wisdom of that advice, being convinced of its absolute necessity. The speech of the Right Hoe. Gentleman did not seem suited to the present occasion. This was not a war of words. This was not a mere party question, how offices were to be distributed, and colonial sinecures disposed of ; the question was vital to the liberties of England ; it was be tween slavery and freedom, liberty and despotism—the des potism of a sordid oligarcby.—(Loud cheers.) That most unconstitutional power of nominating Members to that House had been condemned twice by over whelming majorities. It was recorded as a high encroachment on the liberties of the people, that any Peers should interfere at elections.—(Cheers.) But there was another question. The security of the throne was involved in it. Where was the evidence of reaction ? Had there been in England, Scotland, or Ireland, any open meeting even attempted to b e h e ld aga i nst t h e principles of Reform ? The people had determined that Parliamentary corruption should not continue. And WAS that disposition abated ? Had even the people relaxed ? Ever since the House of Lords had evinced so successfully their late dexterity, when they wished to destroy the confidence of the public in the Ministry, what had been the result? Meetings all over the Metropolis had already taken place. How were Ministers able to proceed with a Bill when they found the conduct of it was taken away from them ? Front that moment, if they bad followed any other course than they had pursued, they must have been degraded and deprived of the public confidence. But they were told it was a dangerous precedent to recommend a creation of Peers on such an occasion. He wished it bad been called unconstitutional, because at a certain period called the Union, one-third was added to the Irish Peerage, in order to enable the Minister of that day to carry that question.. If upon an occasion such as that it was deemed constitutional thus to fetter an industrious people, why should it he thought unconstitutional by the exercise of the same prerogative, to set the rights and liberties of the people on a secure and firm foundation ?—(Loud cheers.) The Peers bad a considerable influence in nominating Mem bers of that House. The House had declared against it, but the Peers refused to give it up. How then was it to be got rid of? He remembered that it had been proposed at a meeting for the purpose of cleansing the Augean stable, of turning the river into the House of Lords, when some one suggested as an amendment, that instead of turning the river into the House of Lords, the House of Lords should be turned into the river. —(Cries of " Hear.") That certainly would be getting rid of it, but it was not the way he recommended. There was no constitutional mode of doing it by force or violence. But while neither the river was turned into house of Lords, nor the House of Lords turned into the river, the Crown could meet the exigency of the case by in creasing the Peers, and sending into that House men who having no selfish interest to indulge, having no barough mongering ft elings, would be enabled to vote disinterestedly, and, therefore, honestly. The Ministers bad acted propel ly ; and he did not envy the feelings of those who had inter fered to prevent the accomplishment of the wishes of the country.—(Cheers.) If any Ministry was created in despite and contempt of that House, and it would be in despite and contempt of that House if it was at+ Anti-Reforming Ministry, he could not look forward to the consequences without apprehension and re gret, It was idle to suppose that the people of England k ill be satisfied without an ample measure of Reform. theta preced en t h a d b een a ll u d e d to , t h at of 1807, but *4B a most imp o rtant pr ece d ent .—(H ear, hear, hear ) It would be too much to recommend Tories to read history—(Loud laughter)—but they. surely should be expected to understand their own history—(Loud and continued laughter.) In 1807 the cry that the Church was i n danger, and the cry 01 44 No P from opery" o ne was rai se d, and the ent i re country was excited end to the other, and the Tories came in triumphant. But did they, on that account, put down the Catholic Question ? No. They gave the country twenty.a ve years of agitation.—(Hear.) They bad absorbed the public attention for 25 years, and ended by being disgracefully beaten.—(Cheers.) That was the history of Toryism. They had had ta do with the patient people of Ireland—(Loud laughter' —he repeated it, the patient people of Ireland, the most patient people on tbc face of the earth; aod eve❑ the sneers that were levelled against them pt used that they bad pa tience even under the greatest insults. He defied any one to prove that they had been guilty of any crime while endea vouring to obtain Catholic Emancipation. Though they had to do with the patient people of Ireland, he much doubted whether they would have to do with so patient a people either in England or Scotland. As to the pledges which it was complained had been required of Ministers, had the House never heard of the pledges of Ministers before now ? Had they not heard of pledges even against the liberties of the people? Besides, if a man pledges himself to his own principles, was there any obj'ction to it? Was a man to be required to pledge himself to for sake his own principles ? The mere distinction be tween pledges and principles was only a mere Tory distinction. Therefore, whether there was anything unconstitutional in the King ascertaining the principles of those whom he chose for his Ministers, and requiring theit pledge to those principles, it was now unnecessaty to inquire. His Majesty's Ministers had come into office pledged to Reform, and if they did not pledge themselves to the King, the King had pledged himself to them. He would not say that the King had violated his pledge, for the King could do no wrong, but those who had placed his Majesty and his Ministers in their present co❑dition bad acted a most improper part.—(Cheers.) He was glad that the Ministers had adopted the course they had taken. If they had desired to resign their situations they could not have seized a better opportu nity, for they bad resigned with their characters perfectly unblemished, but he trusted that their return to power would be very speedy, in order that they might give to the people that great measure without which they would be the basest slaves.—(Loud cheers.) Lord SANDON rose to make a few observations, by way of explanation, but in consequence of the loud cries of " Order," and " Spoke," he sat down, and made way for Mr. MACAULAY, who was loudly called for.— He humbly begged to make a few observations upon the important events which had within a very short period followed each other so very rapidly. In the course of eighteen months they had been on the verge of a precipice, and he had never until now known what it was to feel any uneasiness upon political affairs. If, however, there had been a question at any period which called for the wisdom, energy, and public spirit of that House—if ever there was a question in which there was at one stake all the dearest interests of the community, it was the present question. (Hear, hear.) With great cause for great pain and anxiety he saw also ample cause for joy and delight. He anticipated with perfect confidence that the decision to-night would be that decision which was indispensably necessary to their own honour, and to the safety of the common weal. There was another ground for joy and congratulation. They had still leaders—and leaders, too, to whom they could look with confidence, with pleasure, and w ith pride— leaders who deserved all the support that had been given to them.—(Cheers.) They had fallen, hut had fallen with unblemished honour.—(Cheers.) The sincerity of the Statesman they had been supporting had been brought to the test, and had been found sterling. They had been brought into power by the voice of the people—they had been supported by the people whose cause they advo cated while in power, and they retired from power rather than betray the people—(Loud and continued cheers) — and they would carry to their retirement, as they justly deserved, the full confidence of the people.—( Cheers.) He bore this testimony with all his heart and soul, and prouder was he of them in this day of their glorious disgrace, because he found their honour was not to be shaken by any inglorious intrigue. He addressed that House, convinced, as he was, that the majority of the 3lembers admitted the necessity of passing the Reform Bill. Therefore, he would not enter into the merits of that Bill. With respect to the motion now before the House, he gave it his cordial support.—(Loud cheers.) Of the objections which had been made by the Right Honourable Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), some of them seemed to him to be scarcely worthy of the great power and the high sta tion of that Right Hon. Bart.—(Hear.) As to the first objection, viz. to recommending his Majesty, upon the choice of his Ministers, it was his (Mr. M.'s)opinion, that although the power of choosing Ministers was a prerogative of the Crown, yet it was perfectly constitutional fur this House to offer their advice to his Majesty.—(Hear.) He laid it down as a rule to which there was no exception, and which could not be denied even by the Right Hon. Baronet. They would not act in any way unjustifiably if they went so far as to designate the persons by name whom they might recommend to his Majesty, as they sometimes did when they recommended persons to his Ma jesty for preferment in the Church, the army, or the navy. He therefore laid this down as a universal rule, that, in all the prerogatives of the Crown, the House had the power of offering their advice to the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) He understood the present motion to mean a recommendation to the Crown to retain his present Minister,. He stated this to be his under standing of their motion, and for this reason, that he did not know of any other materials out of which a Ministry could be formed.—(Loud cheers.) But it was said that the Ministers had not been dismissed ; that they had re signed their offices ; and that in advising his Majesty to recall them to office, it was by no means certain that they would return. This sophistry was far below what he had expected to hear from the quarter from which it came—(loud cheers)—for of course the House must know that when they intended to recommend his Majesty to take back his Ministers, they intended also to recom mend that the advice of the Ministers should be adopted also.—(Cheers.) That that was the opinion of a great majority of the House he had not the slightest doubt. Then as to the advice which had been given to his Majesty, the Right Honourable Gentleman had declared that to carry any public measure by the creation of Veers, ne cessarily implied the destruction of the authority of the House of Lords, and he would not admit that a case of necessity could possibly arise which would justify such a proceeding. He understood the Right Hon. Baronet that such a measure, if not illegal, was inconsistent with the existence of the House of Lords as an indepen dent branch of the Legislature He (Mr. IV!.) thought the prerogative of creating Peers was a most useful measures, the exercise of which was sometimes the only mode of preventing great inconveniences.—(Cheers.) But this was a case which required no authority that could be quoted to justify their trusting a great part of the Constitution to a wholly irresponsible power. It was possible that the House of Lords might he mistaken with respect to questions which concerned the dearest interests of the country, and which stirred up the fiercest passions of the people,—(Cheers.) Kings had been mistaken before now, and Houses of Lords had also been mistaken, and w h at had happened once might happen again. Circumstances which hap pened in the reign of a James might also happen again—(Loud cheers)—and therefore looking at what bad happened, and the possibility of what might happen, he thought they ought to take means of preventing such occurrences as hod occurred, when a House of Loi ds , had been blind to the dangers and inflexible to the wants of the other orders of the State. They had known of foolish and perverse kings, and of foolish and perverse Houses of Commons; and was it not possible that they might have also foolish and perverse Houses of Lords ?—(Cheers.) Against the folly and the perverseness of a King they had a check ; against their folly and perverseness the King had a check. Was there, then, to be no check upon the folly and perverseness of a House of Lords ? If the King mis used his prerogatives, they could refuse him supplies, disband his army, and impeach his Ministers. If they offered factious opposition to his Government, the King could dissolve them, and not only that, but choose his own time for referring to the sense of the people, arid thus refer to that sense when he was most likely to find it favourable to his views. He asked them whether there was any thing in the Constitution of the illustrious assembly of which he was now speaking, which necessarily exempted it from those errors to which, as they knew, a King was liable, to which, as they knew, a House of Commons was liable? If its liability to err were as great as their own, ought there not to be a similar check placed upon it? . If they were p re p are d to a d opt the contrary supposition ; if the great problem has seen solved, of finding a body which can never err; if there were these m ag i cal virtues in firs and strawberry-leaves; if those anuses of po wer w hi c h had taken pace amongst Kings and Houses of Com mons could never take place amongst Peers end Earls, the best thing they could do vvas to aboli s h Mo narchy, to abdicate their own functions, and to p l ace all power in the hands of this perfect power.-- (Hear, hear.) But if, as be believed, the House of Lords was not less liable to err than a King and a House of Commons, on what principle was it that they were called upon to concede to a House of Lords perfect inde pendence; to grant it a power they did not yield to th e King, which they never dreamed of asking for themselves ? It the Constitution wer e , as had been often said, a system I tnutual checks, on what principle was it, one great body n the Constitution was to be left without any check whatever? This w a s n o t the Constitution —the Consti tution had in this case, as in others, provided a check. Tire Constitution had not bestowed upon the House of ' Lords the dangerous privilege of being the only I ody in ' he state upon which was no L gal restraint, and against the :rrors of which the people couldhave no appeal, excepting through physical force. But as the Constitution bad pro. vided means by which the House of Commons could guard igaiust the arbitrary power of the King, as the Constitu tion had provided means by which the King could repress any turbulent disposition in the House of Commons, even so had the Constitution provided means by which in great exigencies, the evils which the obstinacy of the House of Lords might bring upon the country were guarded against. " But," said the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, " the precedent is dangerous." He admitted the danger,—he admitted that the power was liable to Those; but he had nothing except a choice of 'angers. Speaking on this subject, without the slightest reference to present times, and as if they were discussing Lord Somers' Peerage Bill in a debating society, he ,vould say, that if he were compelled to determine whether he would rather trust the King to create Peers for the purpose of occasionally carrying a great question, or trust the House of Lords with their power of obstructing inea •ures approved of by the other branches of the Legislature, he should not hesitate in choosing the former. He did not believe that the power with which be thus trusted the King was very likely to be abused. The Ministers who recommended a creation of Peers, were responsible for the advice they gave, whilst the House of Peers were not so for their votes. In contemplating the whole case, be must confess that althotrah he admitted to the full the evil of trusting this power in the King's hands, he yet thought it a less evil than the other upon which they would be thrown upon not so trusting it. If any Honourable Gentleman would devise a Peerage Bill free from the deadly objections to which he thought that of Lord Somers liable, which would secure to the House of Lords independence of the Crown, and at the same time render it certain that that body would not offer fatal opposition to measures which were for the welfare of the country, he would gladly give it his support.—(Hear, hear.) He was compelled to place confidence some where, and he placed it in those hands whence there seemed the least danger of its being abused, and if abused where the consequences of that abuse would be the least pernicious. There was danger, certainly, that this prerogative should be abused ; but was there no danger of any other prerogative of the Crown? The prerogative which bore the closest analogy to that of creating Peers, was the prerogative of dissolving Parliament. However they might differ on all other subjects, every one must agree that the.-preroga tive of dissolving Parliament was not only liable to abuse, but had been grossly abused. Honourable Gentlemen opposite might probably think it was grossly abused last year ; he thought that it was grossly abused in 1807, and Ministers had actually been impeached fur advising a dissolution of Parliament. Why then was one prerogative allowed to be exercised without comment, whilst the other was spoken of as one which ought only to exist in name, and never to be exer cised? But there were cases in which the exercise of this prerogative might be matter of necessity (he used the word in its strongest sense), and when, un less it were exercised, the whole machine of Government might stand still. Suppose the House of Lords took one side, and the House of Commons took another, on some great public question —suppose this difference were to continue session after session—suppose it were incurable by a dissolution of the House of Commons, it is clear that the Government must stand still, or Peers be created. Further—let them consider whether the same objection did not apply in principle to a large and gradual addition to the House of Peers, as well as to the creation of fifty in the course of a day. If there were no objection to the creation of 300 Peers in the course of a generation by one party, who, during that time might hold power ; if they did this in batches of six and seven, and thus fortified their own party in that strong hold of the State, was not the other party, upon coining into power, to be at liberty by one decisive measure, to restore the balance? To say that it was not, was saying in so many words that a party which had been in power for thirty or forty years must continue in power for ever— it was saying in so many words that who was to be Minister in 1832 was to depend upon whether Mr. Fox or Mr. Pitt was Minister in 1800, upon whether Lord Liverpool or Lord Grey was Minister in 1820. It was making the present gene ration the slaves of the past. But the case might be put stronger ; for let them suppose that a House of Lords thus constantly recruited from one party was constantly moving in a diverging direction from the people, sl that at length upon every great and vital ques tion, overwhelming majorities of the people were found on one side and overwhelming majorities of the House of Lords on the other. He would not urge how pernicious this must be to the country, how injurious to the authority of the House of Commons and of the King, but would ask in what position of greater danger the House of Lords itself could be placed ? He could not conceive one of greater danger. The House of Lords, in one sense of the word, was not a representative body ; but every legislative body must so far have the character of a representative body as to hear in the mixed proportion of its parties, no great or monstrous unlikeness to those which prevail amongst the public generally. (Hear.) He could not conceive any thing much less agreeable to the. minds of persons who really wished to preserve the institution of the Peerage, than a House of Lords which should represent nothing but itself ; than a House of Lords which had no great party in the State to back it ; than a House of Lords, the Members of which had no other weight than that which they derived from personal abi lity and personal wealth. It appeared to him, therefore, that there was, in the present case, all the circumstances which could justify a Ministry in recommending to the Crown a large creation of Peers. Looking to the letter of the law, the power of the King was undoubted, and whatever was expedient under such circumstances was constitutional.—(Loud cheers.) The letter of the law coincided with that highest law, the necessity of the state. He, however, deeply regretted that the advice tendered to his Majesty had not been accepted. He deeply regretted that that conduct had now placed them under the necessity of looking round the political world to seek from what parties they must supply their places. If they did not return to office it seemed clear to him that the Reform Bill was lost. He said so because he was at a loss to conceive how, in the present state of the political world,an nistration could be formed out of the parties of the pre sent Opposition, which could possibly carry through even in a mutilated form this Reform Bill. From the Hon. Gentlemen he saw opposite he could not expect such an Administration to be formed.—(Hear.) He could not believe, notwithstanding what had been said, that consistency, that honour, that regard of character had so utterly left Gentlemen, who, during their whole lives, had been against all Reform ; 'who, in the spring of 1830, refused representatives to three large towns ; who, in the autumn of 1830, had resigned office rather than bring in any plan of Reform whatever, who from the Ist of March, IH3I, had never failed to attack it as a whole, and in all its parts; who had represented the disfranchising clauses as downright robbery ; who had represented the enfranchising clauses as necessarily tending to the worst and most odious form of mob Government ; who had represented the qualification fur votes as bad at one time because it was nominally uniform, and at another because it was not uniform ; who raised the cry of universal suffrage in the ears of the rich and of a 10/. aristocracy in the ears of the poor. He could never, he repeated, believe that men who had so acted could be so lost to all sense of consistency, of honour, of cha racter, and of shame, again to accept office under the circumstances, they would be required to do so. He believed there was too much virtue yet left in public men, but if not too much virtue, there was so much shame as to prevent that party from now coming in end carrying the Reform Bill. The inconsistency would be too great. The motives would be too obvious.— (Immense cheering.) He did not believe that a measure of Reform as efficient as the last would be introduced by a Government formed from the Opposition. In fact, he believed that no party in that Opposition could form a Government that possibly could last ; because he . believed that no Government formed from the other side of the House would bring in a Bill to please the public was one reason why he supported the address. The case now stood thus. Those who would carry on the Government by the Reform Bill, could not carry on the Government in the House of Lords, and the Opposition could not be expected to carry on the business of Government in that House For these reasons it was lie considered the Reform Bill was lost ; and he was obliged to confess that he would rather that it was so, than that it should be sent back to that House so mutilated, that it might be said its life blood was gone. What was to he the state of the nation on the second appointment, especially if it was to be thought that that House by its vote to night should show that it was to be final ? He was one who was as much prepared to contend against the errorrs of the people, even as much as he nosy did in their favour, when he thought they were calling for thin . rights. He could not be silent when he saw around him all the materials of the dissolution of empires,—(Cheers.) He felt himself called upon to raise his voice as a warning to those whom h e thought were bringing the ecuntry to destruction. If it was possible to get renegades enough from that side cf the House to I've them, as they called themselves, the Conservative Party, a majority, their troubles would only be be .inning. —(Hear, hear, hear.) The war was now with ,üblic opinion. A Conservative Government might pro icute, but uo juries would convict. Gagging Bills might :ie introduced, and they would not be worth the paper ,n which they were written.—(Cheers.) To the Nouse of Commons he would say, "be firm."—(Cheers.) Remem ber the men who were not called upon to fulfil common du ties, remember the Bill which they had brought forward ; tad new—when a faction, under a momentary triumph, was preparing to destroy the long cherished wishes of the people—by their vole to-night, by their firm -onduet, show to the King—(Cheers)—to the House 0' Lords—(Cheers)—and to the people, that they were resolute in their determination to support the Bill which they bad formerly passed—(Loud cheers). By By their vote of that night he called upon them to save (he Monarchy,—to save the Peerage, even against themselves—(Loud cheers,)—which circumstances had pl ace d in a state of hostility against the country ; end if a contest between those two should arise it was well known which must be the greatest sufferers. He beseeched the House, by all that they held dear, to save the majesty of the crown.—(The Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.) Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, on former occa sions they had been obliged to fight with a living Ministry, but it now appeared that they had only to contend with the shadow of a dead one.—(Loud laughter.) The Resolutions upon which the motion then before the House was founded seemed to imply that the House had perfect confidence in the Ministry, but against that he must protest. He had no great confidence in them, not only bad he no confidence in them or the Bill, but on almost all occasions, and all measures they had brought forward, bad he been completely destitute of such a thing in them. No confidence in them, on the Russian loan, as little on their budget, and on the timber duties he was widely separated from them, as the Poles from each other. They were told that the Noble Earl (Grey) held it inconsistent with his dignity that the clauses or pro visions of the Reform Bill should be considered or interfered with, but he must say that the Noble Lord who had led the House of Commons upon that Bill had been obliged to Submit to such interference in that House ; not only on the Reform Bill was the Chancellor of the Exchequer obliged to defer to the opinion of the Opposition, but on, his budget he was altogether swamped—(Hear, hear, hear.) Had the rule laid down by Earl Grey been formally followed, the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have re signed eight months ago, for he believed that no Chancellor of the Exchequer had ever before suffered so humiliating a defeat upon a subject which was so intimately connected with his office, as the Noble Lord opposite had been upon his Budget. On the subject of the resolution the Noble Lord had introduced, he should beg leave to say for one that he agreed entirely in the sentiments expressed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had stated to him that if he had followed his advice, he would not have brought the pre sent question forward. It had been the custom of that House, during the time that he (Sir Charles We therell) had had the honour of a seat in it, that those Ministers should not bring forward any mea sures themselves or permit their friends to do so. Taking that rule into consideration, he could not but say the present motion was brought forward at a most im proper period. And in his opinion, when the Mem bers of that House carne to vote on the present motion, it would be the duty of Ministers to walk out of the !louse and not vote at all.—(Tremendous cheering.) It had always been usual when any thing was brought forward of a personal nature to any Hon. Member, for him to retire. No person could say but that the present motion was personal to Ministers and brought forward solely for the purpose of restoring them to that office from which they had thought proper to retire. He could not concur in any one of the resolutions. The subject might be divided into three elementary p irts. First, unabated confidence in Ministers, and a sort of re- ' gret for their retirement ; then a dictation to the Crown as to its choice of Ministers, and a dictation to Mi nisters to adopt the Reform Bill. He had very shortly touched on one of them, and bad stated the reasons why he could not put any confidence in Ministers. Now the Noble Lord opposite had stated that the King's refusal to create Peers was the cause of the resignation. But they had not acquainted the House with the number that was proposed to his Majesty. Somethig like sixty had been hinted at. But the Hon. Member for Middlesex appeared to know more about the matter than Ministers had stated, that 70 was the smallest number that could be asked for. Could it, he would ask, be expected that his M :jetty would so far degrade his own prerogative as to accede to such a request? Or ought Ministers who bad required such a creation for the purpose of extinguishing the independence of the House of Lords to be considered worthy of the confidence of that House ? (Loud cheers.) Instead of condemning them for retiring at such an eventful moment, the House by the present reso lution was called on to express its confidence in Ministers who had advised the Crown to stretch to so great an extent its prerogative. In his opinion, Ministers had recomendel his Majesty to commit a political crime, and because his Majesty had vindicated his own honour and independence, by refusing to perpetrate that crime which his false advisers had advised him to commit, that House was called on to express its regret at the course adopted by Ministers, and to give them its unli mited confidence.—(Great cheering.) In his opinion, the demands of Ministers were criminal in the extreme; and the King had done himself immortal honour by refusing to comply with such a request, and had shown himself possessed of sufficient courage, however advised, to adhere to the principles of Constitution. Whoever thought that it was according to the law of the Consti tution, or any thing approaching to it, to adopt the course which Ministers had done, but then support what he could not hut call, the insulting motion of the Cordelier of Devonshire. The Hon. Member for Caine had al luded to the reign of James 11., and said that care must be taken that they did nut get a House of Lords of the same calibre, as existed at that period. He (Sir C. W.) cordially concurred in that; for he could not but consider that a House of Lords, with a hundred Peers sent into it, to do as they were ordered, would be that sort of House of Lords which James the Second would have sanctioned for the purpose of answering his ig• nominous ends. The introduction of so many Peers into the House would be absolutism in its most frightful form. If he was right on former occasions when new Ministers, were formed, always a considerable time had elapsed be fore anything was done. At Mr. Perceval's death, eight or nine days elapsed, during which no business was done at all ; and lie believes! no precedent could he adduced in which, within 24 hours after Ministers had gone to the E ing to have the Government broken up, they had per 'flitted their friends in the House of Commons to bring for ward such barefaced and unblushing measures as had now been proposed, by which the King was to be reduced to the necessity of restoring those Ministers who had so un constitutionally retired from office, and who at the same time would have been so meritoriously dis missed if they had not retired. He hoped he had not improperly occupied time in calling the at tention of the House to the affirmative of what was em braced in the resolutions now before them, as f w as, e oao a hiw i gy fif i e.,it t eg ri s eLe o r e r ae r r i y xot e s h , s triy:) s hdnte °i i esceor:tfneee,n)a, this ii s nti o : t o ,dvfi i f n f sr t al :uvtts,cotrniattom points carrie as d with them a grievous ae l s e u : hd e rntßeaeo C t aeear o xtpf:Ro n aptrie s ‘shetivis t ncoe i ante t arse t :(l) u : n i efid o rs,gv ,b(noa so degraded, uomw l itn eaen is t bol l tyiuwp i Dts i rr d u s‘ cwutsfhen if ti Et fati rienl,e He Hvt C mGo ;t sout t nesiots i e - yoesi r n o e t complain that he had been degraded because the House of Lords would not succumb to him ? Ho (Sir C. W.) would ask whether the King had not a right to be offended ? Had the House of Lords mit a right to be offended ? Was the Prime Minister to say, I will soh due these men—they shall discuss the subject which 1 liming forward just as I think proper—if they don't, the King shall he insulted by the retirement of his Ministers—(Hear, hear, hear)—if not, the House of Lords shall be insulted by an infusion of mem bers in a most unconstitutional manner.—(Hear, hear.) Should the time ever come when the House of Lords shall he subdued, it will then be high time that that House should be suppressed, and no longer exist. If the question which they were now discussing was a sub ary case, then, indeed, that of itself would be a suf ficient reason why the precedent should not be established. He congratulated the country that there was now a Monarch on the Throne who had refused to comply with the unconstitutional policy—the concealed villany, un der the insidious appearance of liberality, of compelling chi House of Lords to perform a most unconstitutional act. It was not the Political Unions, or the clamour out of doors, which was to carry a measure of this sort, and he hoped the King would be rewarded by the feelings of all his loyal subjects for his courageous refusal to commit a criminal political crime. Mr. SCHONSWAR spoke amidst cries of Question," He hoped the House would adhere to its former ()pinions, and that there would be no waverers here, who were r a l y to worship the rising sun. '"* . :l C. HUNT saidithe Hon. and learned Member for Caine had laid it down, that if there was to be a Refort, it must be by his Majesty's Ministers. He reminded bit (Mr. Hunt) very much of the dog in the manger (A laugh)—so that as Ministers could not carry a Reforn heruselves, they would take can• up one else should. 11 (Mr. Hunt) was of opinion that the people of Englanc w e re anxious for Reform, but they did not care whether it was brought forward by Whigs or Tories. When th• Ministers were out of office they always opposed th amount of the standing army; but when they came int, Office they increased the standing army. The Minister had refused to give any money for the assistance of th, Poles, while they had given money to Russia to oppres, Poland.—(Cries of " Oh. oh," and " Question.'', lesides this, Ministers had been a deluding of the people.) —(Hear, hear, hear, and laughter.) Ministers bail , Allowed the Press to go on day after day assuring the people confidently that the King was ready to create Peers. Ellis turned out to be untrue. The Ministers, therefore, ad been a deluding of the people. Those who were in the secret had misled the country—(Hear, hear). old therefore the Ministers were not deserving of eon tidence.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," and much laughter.) He knew that this motion would be carried by a very large majority ; and therefore be hoped the House woulii give him credit for conscientious motives when he voted against them.—(Laughter.) Let them look at the Morn ing Herald.—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") He was going to read them a passage from the Morning Herald.—(Much groaning, and coughing, and laughter, which continued throughout the reading of the following passage.)—" It is clear that a gross deception has been practised on the country ; and let us ask, who have been the parties to that deception ? The King's name has, undoubtedly, often been made use of by the Whig Ministers, in such a way as imposed on the public credulity, and made it be very generally believed there were no lengths which the utmost limits of constitutional power embraced which his Ma jesty was not prepared to go, with the view of carrying the Reform Bill. The people have been, therefore, grossly deceived." He took the liberty of reading this passage to show that he did not 'stand alone, and that one of the public press agreed with him, and spoke his sentiments. —(Loud cheering and laughter.) He would only add, that he did not care about changes of Ministers, for be was quite sure that the people would have Reform in spite of any Ministry. The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the numbers were— For Lord Ebrington's motion 2BB Against it Majority in favour of Lord Ebrington's motion On our readmission to the gallery we timnd Lord EBRINGTON on his legs. We understood the Noble Lord to say, that considering that under existing circumstances it would be more conson.int with his Ma jesty's feelings to have this address presented to him with as little parade as possible, he begged to move " that the address be presented to his Majesty's by such Members of the House, as were of his Majesty's Most Hon. Privy Council." Sir C. WETHERELL begged to remind the Noble Lord that the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite, the late Ministers, were of his Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council : and having reminded the Noble Lord of this, he begged to ask the Noble Lord whether the object of his motion was to insult the King, by sending the address to his Majesty through his Majesty's late Ministers.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh.") Lord ALTHORP said, that there could be no doubt that in the motion he had just made his Noble Friend had departed from the ordinary usage of the House ; which usage was, that addresses like this should be presented to the King, not by the Members of tie Privy Council, but by the whole House. It must, however, he thought, be clear to any man of ordinary sagacity, and of ordinary candour, that the object of his Noble Friend was to consult his Alajesty's feelings by having this address presented in the most private way possible.—(Loud sheets.) He was sure that the majority of the House would duly appreciate this considerate view of his Noble Friend—(Renewed cheers)—and he was equally sure that very few persons indeed, either in that House or out of that House, would think that the Noble and Learned Gentleman had displayed much loyalty in taunting and ridiculing his Noble Friend for being delicately scrupulous lest there should be even the appearance of wounding his Majesty's feelings.—(Loud and long continued cheering.) Sir C. WETHERELL said, that the Noble Lord had a right to his view of the subject, but he (Sir C. Wetherell) had also a right to his, which view he should certainly take the liberty of defending.—(Here a general ery of " Spoke," spoke" was raissd, and the Hon. and Learned gentleman sat down.) Sir R. VYVYAN expressed his surprise that any in tention should have been entertained of moving that an ad dress, which involved the principle whether the ether branch of the legislature should be dictated to by the Mi nister, and which had only been carried by a majority of 80---(loud laughter, and cries of " Hear," from the Mi nisterial benches)—should be presented by the whole House. He would much rather that the Ministers would solicit a private audience from his Majesty, and present the address themselves in private, tkan that the whole of the House should be guided on this occasion by merely a ma jority of 80.—(Continued laughter and cheers from the same quarter.) He had never heard of such a thing be fore. Many gentlemen had voted on the present occasion, after declaring that they only voted for the Reform Bill, and not for a change in the House of Lords ; and yet after all, the question only been carried in a House of 500 Members, by a majority of 80.—(Roars of laughter.) It was necessary that the nation at large should know this. —(Great cheering from the Ministerial benches.) The Ministers hail been tried by a packed jury; and they had also voted themselves in order to swell their own majority. Colonel SIBTHORP said, that among the majority 100 persons might fiirly be reckoned as being influenced by the expectation of being made Peers.—(Laughter.) Sir 11. INGLIS said a few words, which were not heard Lord EBRINGTON said that he would not be tempted by any thing which had fallen from Members on the othe' side of the Roos?, to imitate that tone, which, in the exercise of their discretion, they had thought proper to assume on the present occasion.—(Hear, hear.) Hr could not, however, but express his suprise at the ignorance of the Hon. and Learned Member opposite, with respect to the practice of former Administrations, when questions like the present had been brought forward. if he had studied the history of Pitt's administration, he would have known that that Minister and his colleagues always voted when questions like the present were brought under the eon. sidertion of the House.—(Hear, hear.) The question was then put and carried, that the address be presented to his Majesty by such Members of the House as were of his Majesty's Privy Council. The orders of the day were dispsed of, and the House adjourned at a quarter to three o'clock. SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS. At a time when one House of Parliament has, by its con duct, thrown the country into a state of excitement bordering on distraction, the other House has manfully come forward to allay the ferment, by acting the part which becomes it as guardian of the liberties of the people. It would seem that it was not a very practicable attempt yesterday to patch up an Administration in the room of that which had resigned ; but it will be a thousand times more difficult to succeed in the same attempt to-morrow, after the resolution proposed by Lord Ebrington, and supported by a majority of the House of Com mons, shall have become known to the public at large. By this resolution the Commons demonstrate their unshaken con fidence in the late Administration, and beseech his Majesty to call no servants to his aid but such as are prepared to pass a measure of Reform equally effective with the one which the resignation of Ministers has for the present suspended. An attempt was made in the debate, by Mr. Baring and others, to represent this resolution as a reflection upon the King; but the attempt succeeded only with the faction—the majority saw clearly enough that the Commons owed it to their own consis tency, as well as to the peace of the country, to come forward with a fair avowal of their sentiments at a crisis so full of danger. For our own parts we do not, nor shall we, with out much clearer proof than any that can be adduced at present, give up the King as a Reformer. The Bill, be it re membered, was originally introdued under his Majesty's aus_ pices, and was rescued by his energy more than once from the deadly gripe of the Anti-Reformers. But there is a back stairs to the closet of William the Fourth, as well as of other Monarchs, and unfortunately in this instance his Majesty had not the firmness to shut the door, or to turn away his ear from the whisperers. Still, however, the act, though it operated injuriously to Reform, did not proceed from a hostility to Re. tOrm, and therefore we hope to see his Majesty, in the exercise of his Royal functions, once more tbstering the benificent measure, which in a moment of weakness, he had overlooked. But to return to the subject of the resolution—the House of Commons has done itself great credit by its vote of last night. The division was 288 to 208, leaving a majority of SO in favour of Lord Ebrington's resolution. It is plain, then, from the occurrences of the last few days, that, let reaction have taken place where it may, there has been none amongst the people or in the House of Commons. On the contrary, a new Ml_ petus appears to have been given to the cause by the momen tary check which it sustained, and the country may now look forward to the fulfilment of its hopes in the ordinary course of things, and without the intervention of revolution or vio. lence. Nothing, in fact, can be more cheering than the tont of the debate. It may be regarded not only as a pledge of tranquillity, but as another and more unequivocal triumph of the cause of Reform—Morning Herald. Lord Ebrington's motion for an Address to the King, amounting, as its supporters avowed, to a demand upon his Ma. ;Hay to reeal his late Ministers, and, in recalling them, to act ar their advice, was debated last night in the House of Corn ins, and carried by a m ,jority The Address is to be 'resented to his Majesty to-day. We cannot for a moment en. rtain the belief, we cannot for a moment do his Majesty the justice of supposing, that he will give his Royal sanction to lie monstrous assumption that a mere majority of 80 Members ;it the House of Commons ought to have the power of annihi. sting the independence of the Upper House of Parliament, of itillifying their deliberate judgment, and of tyrannically coin. tailing them to pass a particular measure, without allowing taiem the liberty of exercising their discretion upon it in an v nodification or alteration whatever. Such is the demand con. :eyed in the resolutions of Lord Ebrington, and with which its Majesty is to be insulted. But the King, whose con. ,titutional firmness and courage, as Sir C. Wetherell observed, has done him immortal honour, will never consent to be made the puppet of a faction ; he will not weakly ssveri a from the course he has deliberately chosen ; having refused to degrade the Peerage and reduce the second estate of the 'Legislature to a nonentity, he will stand by that noble resolve, and will confirm the expectations of the true friends of his person and throne. How do those, who have till now been his fulsome eulogists, insult his Majesty when they require him to retrace his steps on such an occasion as this! He will know how to meet the emergency. He will firmly proceed; he will appoint a Tory Administration, well assured that from that moment the majority in the House of Commons will rapidly decrease, and will ultimately be ready to concur in the mea sures of a Conservative Government. The Reform Bill will pass the House of Peers, modified according to justice and reason, efficient for every constitutional purpose, and equal to the wishes of the intelligent, respectable, and well-intentioned classes of the community; and there need be little appre hension that the Commons will refuse to accept such a mea. sure. lf, however, they should hazard a refusal, they would decide against the sense of their constituents; and a clis. solution of Parliament would, by finally settling the question upon a satisfactory basis, restore to the country that quiet and prosperity of which Whig ascendancy leis so long deprived it. All loyal subjects look with confidence to the decision of the King, and rely upon his firmness to bring the present crisis to a happy issue. The speeches of Mr. Baring and Sir IL Peel, last night, were powerful and convincing upon the subject of debate. The former Hon. Gentleman well observed that a motion for transposing the order of the Schedules had been formerly made in the House of Commons, on which occasion Lord Althorp said that the matter was of little consequence, but that he pre. ferred taking the clauses in the order in which they stood. Yet on this matter 'of little consequence the Ministers have now thought fit to resign; Sir R. Peel, in speaking on the third Resolution; which: requires of his Majesty not to appoint any Minister who will not pledge hinisela to carry the Reform Bill as it is, made a most happy allusion to a resolution proposed to the House of Commons in 1607, on the occasion of the retirement of the Whig Ministry, in which Lord Grey himself held a high situation. At that time the Whig party proposed a resolution to the effect that it was highly unconstitutional in the King to demand a pledge of his Ministers to take a prescribed course on any particular mea_ sure. They now propose and carry a resolution setting forth and enforcing the diametrically opposite principle. So much for Whig consistency ! It is worthy of remark that the third reading of the Reform Bill was carried by a majority of I hi. There is, therefore, already a falling off apparently of fifi from the Ministerial side, but in reality a considerably greater de crease, for the Constitutional party were unprepared for this radical manceuvre, which had been secretly cot .erting among their opponents. Is not this early change in the aspect of the House of Commons worthy of attention ?—Morniag Post. It is to be presUmed that the embryo Ministers are by this time pretty well sickened of their bargain. The conspires') against Reform was laid in fraud, and never can result in last, ing victory. Men who have accustomed themselves to regard the influence of fashionable coteries, or family connexions, as a natural and effective mover of the world, are perhaps the feeblest of all calculators when a crisis comes of more than average difficulty, when petty mechanism has to contend with an unforeseen and gigantic pressure, and the question is raised between nations and their establishments, which shall be sacri ficed for the other's use ? The season is now arrived in Eng - - land, when a whole people has become alive at once to the ne_ cessties of their own condition, and have unanimously resolved to amend it—to amend it by ordinary means, sanctioned b) precedent, if such will suffice; if not, by means extraordinary and irregular, but at all events not liable to failure. Herein lies the difference between the conservators of old abuse, and the strugglers for nascent liberty. The anti-Reform faction dream that they can perpetuate ancient evils by the instrumen. tality of an obsolete routine; the reforming people scruple not the application of powers which for centuries have lain dor_ mant, to the restoration of long-forfeited advantages. The Tories are in the act of s triving to constitute a Government which shall succeed in fighting up the oligarchy against the nation, and in redeeming for corruption the ground which it has already lost. With the borough system battered about their ears, they would still intrench themselves amidst the rub_ bish, and stand the assault of countless millions of freemen, forgetting that the Crown of England and all its bright appen. dages might be seized on by the exasperated victors as their spoil. But substance against shadow is fearful odds. The Anti-Reformers will soon be taught by severe chastisement, if they have not yet opened their eyes to the clearest of all visible proof, that the only real force which can be brought to bear upon this vast question of national interest is in the people, and in them alone. lf, under the direct injunctions of their consti tuents, the House of Commons totally stop the supplies, or even grant but a'ahort money bill, where stands that Tory coven, went of which the fancied members and their subalterns have appeared, for these two or three days, in such agonies of caul cation ? If the shrewd and resolute people of this country, fail. ing the House of Commons, which we do not anticipate, in its duty,—if we say, the people of England, com. billing for the execution of that scheme of passive resistance, which in Ireland has baffled all the dexte rity of the law, and the rescources of legislative saga city, should refuse to pay taxes, but leave their goods to be seized, while by an easy understanding it might be settled that none should buy what thus was forced upon the market, where, we repeat, in that case, would be the " conservative" Govern_ ment ? And these are not imaginary cases. The country is every where about to realize them. London has begun. The Common Council yesterday, amongst a series of resolutions, each of which is worthy of the highest applause, for the spirit, and energy, and sound good sense which it indicates, declared that the advisers of his Majesty's negative upon the proposition of his Ministers to create Peers, " have proved themselves the enemies of their Sovereign, and have put to inzinincnt hazard tho stability of the throne and the tranquillity and security of the country." They resolved, under these distressing circumstances. and as a meaus of procuring for the people an efficient reform, " to petition the House of Commons to withhold the sup, plies until such a Reform shall have been . secured." L u d ot tha t t he a C l o ea ra st . They resolved that Lord Grey and his colleaguet: th 'il e) a • t res i o s lv deserved the highest respect and regard from the Com. uponmitte e t h oef progress s b s od o y f i s t l e m fo u r l i d n. sit f A ro p n i f o r e l ce,ysdintogdliakye, this sd doesresit.o) :11 n 17reS C S o l:s c rt il n ; pt a o n in i of fi It'halelYvrhoalen,d— no means look as if the citizens of London conceived the pre, sent to be an ordinary crisis, or one which was to be provided for by measures of a commonplace description. It appertains to a time on the issues of which hangs Reform or revolution; and that is the true character of the existing hour. But re. collect the speeches which have been made, not in London only, but in Birmingham and elsewhere : do they smack of tranquil periols ? Do they countenance the possibility of ruling the people of England by means of those very grievances which have provoked their unanimous abhorrence? Will Binning. ham be trifled with ? or Sheffield ? or Westminster S or Ports mouth ? or Brighton ? (Pavilion Brighton!) or Bury ? or North Shields? or any of the 100 places mined in Scotland? In one and all have petitions been signed for creating " Peers," and carrying the Reform Bill unitzutilaled. But see what is preparing. There is not a town in the united kingdom where a meeting is not about to be held, and where "create Peers," or, " withhold taxes," is rot spoken cf as the single at. ternative. What, then, can be done with such a people? An Anti-Reform Ministry! or a Ministry of Anti-Reformers brought round by fear, tendering Reform in the spirit of " con servation," and nibbling at every fragment of popular conces sion in the present Bill, as if what was lost to the country must of necessity be gained to the Government ! that si c can tell then; will not do now. It is indeed possible, that the 'Tory House q( Lords may grant to the Duke of Wellington what it h.ai Mused to Lord Grey, and pass the identical Bill under an Oligarch Ad. ministration, which, under a liberal one it has rejected. But the people have a voice, and they will cry lewdly to a Cabinet Of Tory Reformers (should such a Cabinet be formed)—" Rapacious hypocrites, you shall not so torment the Eilaiish nation : sup port an honest Administration, for we will no: trust the charter of our liberties in unclean and factious hands like yours."—Tiates $ The debate in the House of Commons last night on the mo tion of Lord Ebrington, to address his Maisst y on the present awful posture of public affairs, partook of the solemnity and the interest of the occasion. We have seldom attended a discus. sion in which the House showed greater attention to the sen. timents addressed to it by the different speakers, or in which the speakers seemed more impressel with the momentous na. ture of the crisis which their words :ma their votes were destined to affect. The speech of Lord Ebrington was listened to with that respect which is due to the character of a sensible, unambitious Nobleman, placing himself in a reluctant pre-erni. settee to avert the calamities with which his country is threatened, and his motion was ably seconded by Mr. Strutt, who, representing a populous manufacturing district, and mixing with persons of all classes in tht.t district, vas well qualified to bear testimony to the strength of the Reform feel ing, and to contradict the absurd falsehoods of a " re-action." Mr. Baring was the first Member who thought of opposing the We, which seemed to be flowing so strongly and so rapidly in favour of the motion. That Honourable Gentleman was, as usual, so candid and ingenuous as to answer all his own arguments ; and thus left those who replied to him scarcely any thing more than to answer his abuse. That abuse was very lavish and very impartial, being directed against the people and the press, the Political Unions, and the Common Council of London. He spoke of " the brawlers out of doors and their delegates within doors" as being the chief supporters of Reform ;—he insisted that more than three-fourths of the wealth, and nearly all the respectability, of the country were against the Bill, and though he allowed that the rabble, with a few Whig Lords and Commoners, had embraced the cause, he claimed more than a set-otrin the Universities and the learned professions. In alluding to the conduct of the Reform agitators, he accused them of insulting the constituted authorities of the country, and ofdesiring to pull down high station, rank, and royalty. This disposition seemed to the lion. Member like c h olera, — a malady of the times both in England and in France; and knowing, as we do, the attention which he has devoted to foreign affairs ever since lie was the bataker to the 144