The Sun. — London, England, 1832-07-27 00:00:00

this motion was introduced for the purpose of going over the army estimates for the fourth time. The Hon. Mem ber for Middlesex had made one of the most unfounded at - tacks he had ever heard on the Commander-in. Chief when he asserted that the Noble Lord had disFosed of commis. sionrfor.party purposes. It would have been well if the Non. Member had " tabled" his facts before he ventured of such an assertion. Mr. T. P. COURTENAY wished to observe, in an swer to the statement of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, who had asserted that many of the commanders of regi ments had never seen service, that he had looked over the Army List, and, out of the Colonels of 97 regiments, he found no fewer than 47 decorated with the Cross of the Bath, or some other similar honour, and why, therefore, it was evident, mu.t have been in active service. a Captain BOLDERO expressed his opinion, that in the present state of the country great reductions must be effected. In the event of a war we must depend on our navy. Our debt would not allow us to send an army of 50,000 or 60,000 men to the continent. It would never again he our policy to appear as a great military power in Europe. Mr. SHEIL expressed a hope that the Hibernian schools would not be abolished. An Hon. Member had said, that he could not perceive the connection which ex isted between the present question and the Church Esta blishment of Ireland. He thought it must be evident to any man who considered the subject, that we were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland, in conse quence of the state of public feeling arising out of the Church Establishment. We had now in Ireland an army of 30 .000 men, a yeomanry force of the same amount, and 5,000 or 6.000 police. Thus the Church Establishment of Ireland, besides possess ing immense revenues of its own, cost this country a large sum of money for its maintenance. Let the people of England hear this fact in mind. The Go vernment themselves admitted that they were obliged to maintain a large force in Ireland in order to protect the Church establishment. The argument wed in favour of Catholic Emancipation was, that the settlement of the question would enable the Government to withdraw the army from Ireland. Those who used this argument thought that emancipation was all that Ireland required; but the Catholics always said that much was wanting besides emancipation. However, let the people of Eng land be aware, that soldiers were necessary to support priests, and that a great sacerdotal establishment must he maintained by a large military one, and that the people paid for all. The crosier must he sustained by the bayonet, and in order to keep twenty-four mitres, how many thousand calques and helmets must be paid for. Lord ALTHORP was one of those who employed the argument that the settlement of the Catholic question would enable the Government to reduce the military force in Ireland. and was very sorry to say that he was mistaken. Colonel EVANS said a few words in reply, after which the motion for the previous question was aereed to. Some returns moved by Colonel EVANS were then ordered. IBE BANK OF ENGLAND. Mr. EASTHOPE proceeded to move for certain papers connected with the Bank of England. His object was to ascertain by positive evidence, what was the course of conduct pursued with respect to the management of the Bank, and whether the evils experienced during the panic of 1825 were not the result of the mismanagement of t 1 c Directors of that establishment ; and lastly, whether there was not inherent in the system of the Bank so much mis chief as rendered it improper to allow it to continue longer. The Governor of the Bank stated, in a meeting which took place at that time in the city, that the establishment had neither increased nor diminished its issues, and he at tributed all the evils to the misconduct of the country banks. Many observant people, however, thought that there vv.-3 some mismanagement on the part of the Bank. He might be told that a Secret Committee was sitting on the subject of the Bank, but the public would not be satisfied with the report of that Committee unless it was accom panied with the information upon which it was founded. The papers which be was about to move for, would refer to a period antecedent to 1826, and he could not see what objection could possibly exist to their production. If the Bank was in danger in 1826, they bad now had ample time to recover from it; and if they had not done so, it was a proof that the machinery of the Bank of England was defec• tiee. For his part he believed that the construction of the Bank of England was opposed to the pullic interest. The present Lord Chancellor said in the House of Com mons, in February,lB26—" Much had been said upon the proceedings of the Bank of England during the late panic. Without wishing to throw blame upon the conduct of that body, be could not help expressing his conviction that an end must come to that system which exerted so powerful an influence at present, not only upon the money market, but on the whole trade of the country. Some change ought to he effected by which the interests of the whole empire, together with the fortunes of every family in it, should be drawn from the absolute control and direction of four and twenty men." The late Lord Liverpool also said—" lam convinced that the concerns of this country have become too extensive to allow of the continuance of the exclusive privileges of the Bank of England. Those privileges operate in a most unfortunate manner for the country." Lord Goderich, then a member of the House of Commons, expressed similar opinions. It appeared quite evident from this, that the late Govern ment had come to a determination not to renew the pre sent exclusive privileges of the Bank, when the period of their expiration arrived. Considerable alarm had recently been excited by a rumour that Government intended to pro pose a renewal of the Bank's monopoly. It was of the utmost importance that the public should have sufficient information to enable it to form a just opinion with respect to the conduct of the Bank, and he vt ould therefore move, " that there be laid before this House an account of the amount of promissory notes of the Bank of England and Bank post-hill in circulation on the Ist of every month in the years 1824, 1825, and 1826 ; also an account of the balances in the hands of the Bank at the same periods, distinguishing those belonging to the Government from those belonging to individuals ; also an account of the quantity of gold and silver coin in circulation at the same periods ; al.° an account of the sums which the Bank bad advanced on mortgage, or any other description of lean which they had made upon the security of real property; and also an account of the amount of Exchequer-bills held by the Bank during the same period." Lord ALTHORP said, that his Hon. Friend had anticipated the objection which would he made to his mo tion, when he referred to the Secret Committee now sitting to inquire into the affairs of the Bank. That, certainly, was a powerful reason for inducing the House not to accede to the motion. He surely could not ex pect that the Session would come to a close without the House hearing something from the Committee. There could be no doubt that if the Committee did their duty they would most anxiously inquire into all the transac tions which occurred prevh usly to the panic of 1825, and lay before the house all the information upon that subject which they think can safely be made public. He was not asking too much for the Committee when be requested that the House would give them credit for a de sire to withhold from the public only so epoch of the in formation which came before them as it would be danger oukto publish. There were various circumstances which precluded him from entering into the question of the re newal of the Bank Charter. He would address himself only to the motion. The information sought for must be before the Committee, who in a short time would have to report their proceedings to the ficiuse, and lay before them all the evidence which could with safety be produced. Those were the grounds upon which he opposed the motion, and not from any wish to conceal any information which it would be proper to lay before the public. On the contrary, he was desirous that the fullest information should be produced, and he believed that when the Committee made their report, no person would have any cause to complain of the want of informa• tion. ' • - 'Mr. HUME thought the motion ought to be complied - i veithoinless the Noble Lord would undertake to say that " the' information which it sought for was actually before the `enstimittee. In his opinion, the Bank of England btiOilld "b ' t 'compelled to publish their accounts every six " months. In consequence of the Noble Lord's explanation e he watild*not salt upon his Hon. Friend to press his mo s' tion ; arthi - sairre time, proceeding upon the understand. , - ing; thatif the repiibite information were not contained in t!'the !report; the motion should be renewed. ''' 7 1itr• WAREVRTON concurred in the sentiments of his Ilon. - Fritial the Member for Middlesex. "•' 'Sit H. PARNELL thought it impossible, from the ex - tent'tlfthe'itrtfuirf that; the report on so important a goes. 41 •tirin'enutd - he'preparett-this session. ~.' - Mr.ii.VlNCl.said that the inquiry, as far as it had pro 4,..,evede.d,;sittla proaeeuted in-as judicious a manner as, under i i•the eircuratsrancesoaoskl;be expected. He believed that sotehert the evidence Caine. to he laid upon the table of the '''.- Mouse, the-pvlrlie would pronounce a similar opinion. If , i .o tet igi tv iii ent i ef r ia ns.avlio bro ug h t f orwar d the mot i on ;i n ief f v e d... t aidisliteetin!nr - mation to which he had adverted 4 4 ' )10 k , I *ll-*€ 6 k fpr in the course of inquiry, b e (Mr. ( r k. ': / rVizikPivoirld-asaOthat-lie was mistaken. of what the t a rp!„ 41 I;titt ,--' : .ttnigift cleti k 4was ignorant, but he understood • i - ''' i tatiritillit=i4tr ,ad no ri aeon to apprehend ariy,, ; that o6 i inuir) . +s tie C . •q • ' - _ Lis.',9(.3);Lj,,Tir t Y _begged_ to ask the Hob. Gentei -ifeati,tpovg u forward the me= whether e 1 were right in understanding him to say, that the late Go v. rnment had intimated a determination not to renew the Bank Charter. Mr. EASTHOPE said, that the wor.ls he kad cited w.-re used by Lord Goderich, a member of the late Admi- rs . stration. Mr. COURTENAY had apprehended that the Hon. ' Gentleman laboured under a mistake. Lord Goderich was a member of the present Administration. Mr. Aliterman THOMPSON, with regard to the pre sent motion ) considered it ill-timed. Sir M RIDLEY hoped his Hon. Friend would abstain from pressing his motion. Mr. EASTHOPE, in reply, defended his motion, and stated that it was to Lord Liverpool's Government lie had referred on the point of refusing to renew the charter. The words of Lord Goderich's communication were, that " Government had determined not to grant a renewal of the chartered rights." The motion was then put by the SPEAKER, and nega tived without a division. IRISH DIOCESAN SCHOOLS. Mr. WYSE rose to bring forward a motion respecting the present state of the diocesan schools in Ireland. The diecesan schools, which ought to be of great utility in Ireland, had fallen into decay. Their dilapidated houses and incapable teachers formed a strong contrast to a po pular seminary—the Belfast institution. These schools had been considered as institutions altogether Protestant. Now this was a great error, for they were not exclusive in their object, but schools strictly national, that had or igi. nated in Catholic times, and had been perverted from the purpose for which they were intended. The lion. Mem ber next proceeded to advert to the very defective state of the diocesan schools, from the misapplication of their funds. The royal schools, he observed, were equally de fective as the diocesan. He concluded by moving an ad• dress to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions to the Commissioners of Educa tion in Ireland to inquire into the state of diocesan and similar public foundation schools in Ireland, to ascertain their revenues, whence collected, and how applied, within ti e last ten yea's, and to ascertain whether they might not be conducted upon a better system, with a view to render them more available to the purposes of general edit= cation in that country. The motion was agreed to. CHOLERA RETURNS. Colonel SIBTHORP, before he moved for the re-issuing of returns of the number of cholera cases in London and Westminster, Southwark, and the bills of mortality, and also in the several parts of England, wished to give notice, that on a future day he would move fur a return of the expenses attendant upon the distribution of the Deccan ; rize money, which he believed would, when produced, e found not at all satisfactory to the public. With re -pect to the motion of which he had given notice for this vening, the Hon, and Gallant Member contended that the public ought to he put in possession of accurate ac counts of the state of the disease which now prevailed in the country. He should also wish for a return of the daily cases of cholera for the last three months, and the number of places appointed for the reception of cholera p itients, and the number admitted. He would also move that instructions be sent to each parish to keep a monthly register of the number of burials. Mr. P. THOMSON had no doubt that the Hon. and Gallant Member felt that he was discharging his duty in submitting this motion, but the Government telt that they were doing their duty in resisting it. He was sure, also, that the public feeling did not go along with the Hon. and Gallant Member in the motion for the publication of the daily cases. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP in rep'y, the gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place. The motion was negatived. SINECURE OFFICES IN THE COURT OF CHANCERY. On our return to the gallery we found Mr. BOLDERO moving for a copy of the appoint ment of Clerk of the Patents and Registrar of Affidavits in the Cour t of Chancery. The Hon. Member (as well as we could collect in the noise made by the return of strangers to the gallery) said that he did not at that mo ment feel it necessary to make auy observation on the subject to which the motion referred ; he would content himself with submitting it to the House. Sir E. SUGDEN would take that opportunity of say ing a word upon what had fallen from his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, late last night, in reference to what he (Sir E. Sugden) had said in the early part of the evening, on the subject of the recent appoint. ment in the Court of Chancery. His Hon. and Learned Friend seemed surprised that he (Sir E. Sugden) should have mentioned any thing relating to the Lord Chancellor in his the (Attorney-General's) absence. He was sure that at whatever time the subject of the Lord Chancellor, or any thing relating to him, was mentioned in that House, he could not be without friends present to attend to his interests. For his own part he had not felt it ne cessary to wait for the presence of the Attorney-General, on the subject to which be had called the attention of the House; and the less so, as he had given notice to his Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicitor-General, for the pur pose of having it communicated to the Lord Chancellor, that it was his intention to mention the subject in the House, and this, let it be understood, was before he had any knowledge whatever that the offices in question bad been filled up. Indeed, he did not know of any appoint ment having token place, until he was within a few yards of the House, when he was informed of it by an Hon. Member whom he met. He was anxious to set himself light with the House as to the facts of the case, as he un• derstood that the matter had been made the subject of come remarks by the Noble and Learned Lord that evening in another place—some of which were directed against himself. However, he would not take any farther notice of those remarks until he had them from a more authentic source. He would wait till he saw them, and would take the opportunity when the Noble Lord (Althorp) should bring forward his motion respecting the Lord Chancellor's salary, when he should defend himself against the sarcasms of the Noble and Learned Lord, or against those of any other in dividual who might have attacked him. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he had not ex pressed any surprise at his Hon. Friend having brought forward the subject in his absence. His surprise was that it should be brought on at all that evening, as he had understood from his Hon. and Learned Friend the Solicit sr-General, that the Lord Chancellor was to be asked respecting the office, and whether it was to be filled up. All he (the Attorney-General) had said, was an ex pression of his regret that he was not present when his Hon. Friend had introduced the subject, and that regret he still felt; for on looking at the usual vehicles of infor mation as to what passed in that House, he found that the remarks which had been made were calculated to produce rather an unfavourable impression in the public mind against the Noble and Learned Lord; but if he (the At torney-General) bad been present, two minutes would not have elapsed after the statement, when he would have given such explanations as would have at once removed from the mind of every Honourable Member any unfavourable impression which the previous remarks might have made. • The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that the impres sion upon his mind had been that the places in question had not been filled up at all, nor was he aware that the inquiry intended by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for St. Mawes was directed to the appointment in question. Indeed, he had been prevented, under pecu liar circumstances, from seeing the Lord Chancellor upon the Rif ject. Sir E. SUGDEN considered be was pet fecly justified in pursuing the course which be had felt it his duty to adopt,—a course which did not want precedent,—it was a mere matter of inquiry or question to the Government, such as was quite regular to be made, as he would contend, without notice. He denied that be had been guilty of any thing that was inconsistent with the usual practice of the House. Similar inquiries bad been made on former occasions with reference to the appointments held by many individuals without notice, and been answered without any charge of irregularity. Mr. W. BROUGHAM maintained, that if ever a ques tion had been put that meant or was intended to convey a censure, it was the present, suggested, as it had been, on a former occasion, without any notice. He, however, could say, with reference to the offices in question, they had been pronounced to he absolutely necessary after a consultation upon the subject by the Chancellor, the Tel's. ter of the Rolls, and others.—(hear.) He must again, complain of the want of notice when the subject bad been before introduced, for if such notice had been giver), i he ,should have excused himself from the duties whieb he had to discharge elsewhere, and been in his elate. to have met the question with the fullest in foranatiou upon the subject. He was also certain 5134 - sOch info:mutation_ would .have sufficed 'to satisfy the Rousßouse, that nothin g h a d b een d one w i t h r e gar d to these • appointments of which even the most captions could com plain: Such questions, conveying as they did' More or less censure upon the parties to whom they referred, ehoual not. be made without notice; 'for though be Was sure that ti]v . Aaracters of the parties referred to in the'rjulesent in , were above all suspicion, yet an injure i raipti'atise a.delay of twenty-four hours should .occur in an v 4/Wirtff . .r;ii i cti j ap inquiry tending as it dirt to ceneltre. He i -Aitata m issapp, that on all occasions of attacks being ti u• personalty mad against individuals, whoever they might be, that notice would be given, and if such a course had in this case been pursued, be should have been ready in the first instance to meet it. Sir C. WETEIERELL said that the Hon. Baronet the Member for Westminster (Sir F. Burdett) had been more censorious than any other individual upon the present occa•ion, for he bad himself stated, that it was a matter of impossibility that t!'e Lord Chancellor could have made a permanent appointment to the situations referred to. Lord ALTHORP was of opinion that it was perfectly regular to put any question, whether it implied censure or hot, but be thought that notice ought to have been given in this instance, for, from the nature of the of f ices in ques tion, be did not think there was any ground for censure. Sir F. BURDETT said, that the observations he had f,rmerly made applied only to the conviction on his mind that the Lord Chancellor could not have been guilty of that which had bten attributed to him. Sir F. TRENCH said that no complaint could be made of want of notice, when it appeared that so many Hon. Gentlemen were even now ready to defend the conduct of the Lord Chancellor. Mr. SPENCE said, that with reference to the allusion which had been made to the Bill which went to abolish these offices, and which had been stated to be approved of by the Lord Chancellor, he could only say that he had seen that Noble and Learned Lord on the subject of that measure, and any delay which had taker, place in brining forward that Bill was attributable solely to him (Mr. Spence). Mr. BOLDERO, in reply, said that a plain question had been put by an Hon. Member last night, which had not been answered, and he therefore considered himself justified in renewing the inquiry, by moving for the re turn. It was admitted that the offices were useless, and he could not therefore think that his motion was in the least degree irregular. Sir E. SUGDEN had communicated his intention to make the inquiry which he had done last night to what he had conceived to be the proper channel ; if it was not the correct one, he should in future seek another. The motion was then agreed to. RUSSIAN DUTCH LOAN. On the motion of Lord ALTHORP, the Russian Dutch Loan Bill was read a third time and passed After a few words from Mr. FRESHFIELD, the Bank rupt Act Amendment Bill was also read a third time and passed. FORGERY BILL. The ATTORNEY GENERAL moved that the further consideration of the report of the above Bill be postponed till Monday nex. Sir C. WETHERELL and Sir E. Sucnnst wished that the Bill should be postponed till next session, since it was, in their opinion, impossible that it could be properly con sidered in the present. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that the ques tion bad upon various occasions been amply discussed ; and if the principle upon which it was founded were to be carried into effect at all, it was desiral.le that should be carried into effect us speedily as possible. He had little doubt that the Bill would be carried through the other House. Further consideration of the report postponed till Monday. The other Orders of the D ty were then disposed of, and at a Quarter after Two o'clock the House adjourned, there being then 15 Members present. ROUSE OF LORDS, JULY 26. Sir ANDREW AGNEW and others brought up two private Bills. Mr. BURNELL and others brought up the Irish Boun daries Bill. A Member of the House of Commons ap peared at the Bar with a message, praying that their Li,rdships would permit the Bishop of London to attend a Committee in the House of Commons, to give evidence upon a Bill for the better observance of the Lord's Day. The Newfoundland Duties' Bill went through a Com mittee, and was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. Lord RADNOR presented a petition from a parish in Yorkshire, in favour of the Government system of edu cation introduced into Leant!. The Doke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Shirley, against Negro Slavery. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented two petitions from Galway, against certain clauses in the Irish Reform Bill. Earl RODEN presented petitions against the Irish Re form Bill, from the Orange Conservative Society of Ire land, the Sheriffs and Common Council of Dublin, seve ral lodges, and various parishes in Ireland. The Earl of ELDON presented a petition praying for amendments in the Irish Reform Bill, from certain magis trates in the county of Galway. Lord PLUNKET presented a petition from the Synod of Ulster, in favour of the new plan of education. PATRONAGE. OF THE LORD CHANCELLOR. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition from the bankers, merchants, and others of the town of Leicester, iu favour of the Local Courts Bill, in troduced by his Lordship two sessions back. He approved of the prayer of this petition, and hoped that the Bill to which it referred, would he carried into effect. It had been referred to the Commissioners of Law Inquiry to examine into its detai:s. He wished to take this op portunity of making sonic observations upon a subject referred to in another place last night. He meant some recent arrangements made in the Court of Chancery, with respect to which the Solicitor-General was not able to afford that information which he might have been had he made inquiry of him (the Lord Chancellor). The office he had the honour to hold was paid in the worst possible manner, viz.—partly by salary, partly by fees, and partly by certain patronage, which was allowed for the sustension of the dignity of that office, and the , •upport of that family upon which the Chancellor almost inevitably entailed the burden and expense of a peerage. This patronage had always been taken and deemed to be an actual part of the emoluments of the office. This was the worst possible way in which any office could be remune rated. It was bad, because it might happen, as in the case of Lord Loughborough, that an individual might hold it for seren years, and not have one of those offices fall vacant, whilst another might hold it for as many months, and have them all fall vacant. A necessary consequence of the system was that it kept up useless places which ought to be abolished, and had a tendency to perpetuate abuses. So completely were the offices to which he allu ded considered a part of the emoluments of the Chan cellor, that they had been made the subject of marriage settlement. From the moment of his taking the office he had the honour to fill, it was his fixed de termination to use his best endeavours to prevail upon Parliament to abolish them. Two Bilk were accordingly prepared for that purpose, and one of them was brought forward last session, and was only postponed to give time for some improvements to be introduced into it. Since these alterations bad been made, by which the two Bills he referred to were to be con solidated into one, it was proposed in them to abolish two of the principal offices to which be had referred. One of them was that of the Registrar of Affidavits. He hoped that this Bill would be laid before the House in the course of a very few days. The Learned Lord then proc-eded to say, that the 1311 which he meant next s eek to lay before t' .e House, and which, as he said, was but an enlargement of that of last session, which he had since submitted to the revision and counsel of his profes sional brethren, would embrace provisions for abolishing the two identical offices, the appointment to which had given rise to the present explanation, and would also em brace certain provisions under which app-als might be heard under the Chief Baron. One word in reference to that appointment. \Vhile the Bid to which he referred was in course of preparation, the melancholy event with which they were all familiar occurred, which occasioned a vacancy in the two offices filled by the late Mr. Scott. He need not say that under the present system he was as fully entitled to the patronage thus thrown into his hands, as he was to his s Clary, or any other portion of the emoluments of his office. He need not repeat, that he conceived this to be a bad mode of official re muneration, and one which he was determined to use every means in his power to abolish, as a practice unworthy of his office, and calculated to lower it in public estimation. The fault also, he repeated, lay in the system, and not in the individual Chancellor, and he trusted that he should be the last person filling the office who would have to complain of its workings. But surely it did not follow, that because he had pledged himself to the abolition of those sinecures, that he should, when the appointments thus unexpectedly fell into his hands, refrain from taking possession of sonic of the emoluments of his offi , e, before any regulation had been adopted for placing them on a better footing.—(Hear.) The proposition Rid' , absurd, and surely never entered into the head of any man possessing brains ; so that lie was convinced that the ques• don put by a Learned Gentleman in another place, which seemed to insinuate that he was violating his pledge by fill- Mg up the appointment, had no suc h meaning, and wholly originated from a laudable anxiety to 6 , e li c i t information on a matter affecting th e c h aracter of th,. highest law authority."--(A laugh ) " Yes," continued the Learned Lord, " I am bound to relieve —nay, cannot ' for a moment doubt, that the Learned Gentleman was wholly influt need by this most praiseworthy desire of information. How could I think otherwise, know.. ing as I do, in common with that eminent " high l e , authOrity," that philosophers have long since cub°. gized this laudable thirst of huoviledge as the most distia guished attribute of humanity, and as ti ‘most distin guished feature of an ingenious and lofty intellect ? (Cheers and laughter.) Yes, my Lords, we have all read that it is this Heaven-born thirst of information, and its condition, at least invariable concomitant, a self-dis regarding and candid mind, that most distinguishes man from the crawling reptile--that most distinguishes man from the wasp that stings, and from the wasp that fain would, but cannot, sting.—(Letl cheers.) Ay, distin guishes us from not only the insect that crawls and stings, but from that more powerful, because more offensive, crea ture, the bug, who, powerful and offensive as it is, is, after al, but so much loathsome vermin —(Continued cheers and laughter.) Yes, I say, it is this laudable propensity, upon which humanity justly prides itself, which I have no doubt solely influenced the Learned Gentleman to whom I allude, to seek for information which it would be cruel to stingily gratify.--(Heir, hear, and a laugh.) Con vinced that this was the sole source of the Learned Gentle man's question and remark, he only regretted that he did not apply to him sooner for an answer. Fortunately, so far as the cavil of little minds was concei ned, he hid living witnesses in that House and elsewhere to testify, that before the melancholy occasion of the vacancy, and forty-eight hours after they had occurred, he had expressed his firm determination to go on with the self-same sine cure-abolishing Bill, precisely as if these vacancies were not likely to occur, or never had occurred.--(" Hear, hear," from the Treasury Bench.) There would be, as he had stated, some alterations or differences between that and the Bill he had formerly spoken of as in progress of maturation ; but this be pledged himself to, that neither in letter, spirit, form, or figure, shall the most insect and miscroscopic eye detect the remotest change in that por tion of the Bill under which the very two offices at issue would be totally abolished.—(Hear.) He had originally intended to bring in two Bills—one for the improvement of the administration of justice. and the other for abolish ing the registration of affidavits and clerk of the patents bffice ; but upon consideration had thought it better to incorporate all the provisions in one measure. The Learned Lord then proceeded to hail, in the words of the Roman orator, this new-born disposition on the part of the inveterate foes of those who " trench upon vested rights," of which, of course, sinecure offices were a most ancient and constitutional feature, and under which the country had become the glory of surrounding nations, and the envy of the world—(A llugh)—as a sign of the times, and as a proof that at last we may hope to see their abo lition. He trusted they would proceed in their econo mical career ; and thanking them for their attention to himself, he would venture to suggest " they might go further and fare worse."—(Hear, and a laugh.) For his port, be would continue his earnest endeavours to " set his own house in order." His sphere was necessarily limited, but in the Court of Chancery he would labour so long as he held office, trusting that the dry was not distant when cheap, and speedy, and efficient justice should be within the reach of every British subject.—(Cheers ) He would not limit his exertions to the abolishing of the two sinecures more immediately under consideration; but he should propose a measure for abolishing all sinecures connected with his office, the majority of which, as they knew, were tilled by Noble relatives of his predecessors in office. That measure he would leave Parliament to adopt, if it should, as he was sure it would, see fitting. It would be ridiculous, absurd in the extreme, for him to vaunt himself in his individu l capacity upon making great per sonal sacrifices to the public. He never said, or meant any such thing. He hod no right to be generous at the expense of his office, and the public had no right to ex pect that he should foolishly sacrifice his own personal emoluments.—(Hear, hear ) He would, however, fear lessly and honestly endeavour to discharge the duty he owed himself and the public, and would proceed with the promised Boil, as if neither the vacancies had occurred, nor the little good-natured episode connected with them He would confidently leave the rest to the wisdom of Par liament, who might abolish or not abolish sinecures as it pleased. He, at least, would do his duty. The Learned Lord proceeded next to say, that it was necessity to the public business that the office of Registrar of Affidavits should be promptly filled up, a case having (named with in forty-eight hours after the vacancy, which com pelled him to make himself responsible for the ne cessary registering of a very important affidavit. It was found on inquiry, that this could only be legally performed by the deputy registrar; and as there could be no deputy where there was no principal, it became necessary to appoint a principal, for him to invest the deputy with the proper functional authority. Then the point was, who should he appoint? In the first place, he had a Bill in progress for doing away with the office altogther ; in other words, the appointment should be m...rely temporary, to be valid only till the Bill had passed into a law. He, therefore, took especial care to appoint a gentleman upon whom he could exercise gre tt influence, and in whom he bad implicit confidence, that when he gave the word he would at once vacate the office, without the remotest whisper, or insinuation of a complaint, of vio'ation of vested rights, or any other slang set up by the defenders of sinecures and obsolete institutions.---(Hear.) He &ere fore appointed his own brother, who, in accepting the ap pointment, was put to more inconvenience than, perhaps, his cavillers would be ready to expose themselves, anxious as they were to preserve immaculate the character of the dispensers of justice in high places. The very vacating his seat in the Commons was in itself no slight incon venience—the more to be felt, as the fees which he would have to pay on assuming the functions of office would ex ceed the probable emoluments of his office, between the date of his accession and the passing of the measure which would abolish those offices.—(Hear, hear.) The Learned Lord having repeated at some length his determination to proceed at all hazards with his intended Sinecure Aboli tion Bill, fetid in conclusion, that if ever there was an in dividual whom it would cost nothing to abide by its pro visions, no matter at what expense of personal emolument, he was that individual.--(Cheers.) The Earl of ELDON stated, that in his opinion it was quite necessary that the office should be filled up at once, and therefore that the Noble Lord on the Woolsack was perfectly justified in the course he had pursued. He dif fered, however, with the Noble and Learned Lord, in con sidering the office as a sinecure. It was one to which, on the contrary, a very heavy responsibility was attached ; and he hoped, that in whatever reforms the Noble and Learned Lord might make, he would take care that due attention was paid to the responsibility of the individua presiding over the department. Lord WYNFORD concurred with his Noble and Learned Friend, and added, that in his opinion, means should be taken to provide for the salary of the Lord Chancellor in a less objectionable manner. Earl GREY thought that the statement of his Noble and Learned Ft lend, supported as it was by the testimony of the Noble and Learned Lords opposite, must entirely put an end to the calumnious charges--which had been little to the credit of those who brought them forward— preferred against his Noble and Learned Friend. It was quite clear his Noble and Learned Friend could have pur sued no other course with respect to the appointment, than that which he had followed. The Duke of WELLINGTON rose for the purpose of reminding the Noble Lords opposite, that it was now nearly two years since the Noble and Learned Lord oppo site had made a sacrifice of his income, amounting to several thousands a year, and yet no compensation had been given to him. He now called upon the Noble Lords to make some adequate provision for the office of Lord Chancellor without further delay. Earl GREY admitted that too much time had been already lost, but this was chiefly owing to the indisposi ion of his Noble and Learned Friend to entertain the subject. He, however, believed that a colleague of his would bring forward in the other House a motion for compensation to his Noble and Learned Friend in the course of next week. The LORD CHANCELLOR declared that he would take no part whatever in the at rangements alluded to by his Noble Friend. When the Bill, however, was brought from the other House before their Lordships, they would, of course, give it their best attention ; and he would then be ready to show that the emoluments of that office need not be enormous. IRISH REFORM BILL. On the motion of Lord SHAFTESBURY, the House resolved itself into a Committee on this Bill. Lord ORIEL declared himself oppo:ed to the principles of the Bill, and maintained that great injustice was done by its provisions to the freemen in towns, and their descendants. In England these rights were preserved to a much greater degree than in Ireland ; although the same necessity did not prevail, because the Irish freemen were intended to support the Protestant interests in Ireland. Adverting to the Marquis of Anglesea, lie felt himself compelled to say, although he had the greatest respect for that Nobleman, that he was not fit for the s it uat i on h e h e ld , d ud that he had conducted himself as a partisan ever strict: be had been at the head of the Government in Ireland. He especially objected to the netv mode of registry as it re spected the Protestant Clergy of Ireland, who would bi compelled to swear that they were in possession of free holds at the very tune when the p e r secu ti on aga i nst t h em was so strong that it was impossible they could tell whether they had any freehold s or not. O n all these g r o unds he felt it his duty to oppose the measure. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that as he was one or those who concurred in recommending to Parliament adoption of the Catholic R e li e f Bill , accompan i e d by a meas ure for raising the qualification of voters in countie in Ireland, which latter measure was considered to be in dispensable to the security of the Protestant interest in Ireland, he did not feel himself at all at liberty to diminish that security ; and as he was persuaded that if he agreed to the Bill before their Lordships he should greatly diminish that security, and thereby deal unfairly and unjustly by the Protestants, to that Bill he could not assent. Thei,b ject of the measure for raising the qualification of voters in counties, was to restore to property in Ireland, which it was well-known was chiefly Protestant, its legitimate influence. Now, what was done by the present Bill ? The qualification of voters in counties was practically altered by the ,alteration of the oath. To that he could not agree. But more than that, the Bill established a leasehold qualification. He did not mean to assert that that was precluded by the measure of 1829 ; but they ought to have made the leasehold qualification as high as the freehold qualiflcatioh had been made by the measure of 1829. Ministers, however, bad not the fluntresa and the justice to do that. By introducing a leasehold qualifica tion lower than the freehold qualification established by the measure of 1829, they created an inferior class of voters, and thereby diminished the security of the Protestants. But the Bill went further than to alter the qualification of the voters in counties : it altered the qualification of the voters in boroughs. He did not mean to say that the measure of 1829 pre cluded any alteration in the qualification of the voters in boroughs; but at that period it had been thought that it would be inconsistent to raise the qualification of the voters far boroughs, unless the corporations were restricted from creating freemen. What was done by the Bill ? It disfranchised the non-resident freemen ; which was, prac tically, to transfer the right of election in boroughs from Protestants to Catholics. He should pause, if these were his only objections to the Bill ; but the Bill went much further. It gave to the Catholics a preponderance never before contemplated. The Noble Lord might say that in this enlightened age that was very expedient. He (Lord Ellenhorough) thought not. But at any rate it was not the condition on which the Catholic Relief Bill passed ; and he felt it his duty to oppose whatever infringed the principle of that measure. He deeply regretted the differ ence which existed in Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants ; but it was impossible for him not to feel that the Protestants supported the Union, and that the Ca tholics did not. He was desirous to maintain the Union ; convinced as he was that it was essential to the prosperity of the two countries; and he opposed the Bill, because by throwing a preponderance of power into the hands of the Catholics, materially influenced as they were by the priest hood, and still more by the agitators, the maintenance of the Union was endangered. He must say, that he looked with deep dismay at the present state of Ireland. For that state he considered his Majesty's Ministers to be deeply responsible ; and he would not render himself re sponsible far increasing the evils of that state, by creating a further danger, over which it might be found imprac ticable to triumph, which might destroy not only the Pro testant establishment (indeed that was almost gone already), but the Protestant Government in Ireland, and also dissolve the integrity of that empire which his Majesty was bound to preserve, as well as that church which he was sworn to maintain. The Earl of CLANRICARDE observed, with refer ence to the Noble Baron who had just addressed the House, that nearly the whole of his remarks related to the details of the Bill, and might, with more propriety, have been made in the Committee. The Noble Baron who had just sat down, founded his opposition to the Bill on his indisposition to diminish the security of the Protestant interest in Ireland. He (Lord Clanricarde) denied that it would have any such effect. The main change in the re presentation of Ireland, which the Bill proposed to tff et, was, the abolition of the close corporations. As to the apprehended increase of the Catholic voters in counties, he did not believe it would exceed a thousand, the effect of which on fifty-two thousand, the present number of the county constituency, would not be sensibly felt. As to giving power to the agitators in Ireland, he wished to ask whether the power which the Bill would give them could be at all compared with the power which would be given to them if the Bill were rejected? He had no apprehen sion that the proposed change would in the slightest de gree endanger the Union. He did not believe that the Catholic body at large were averse to the Union : they knew too well the value of the English market for their cattle and other productions. They knew that the repeal of the Union would increase their taxation, their want, and the w hole mass of their evils. Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained. Lord Viscount MELBOURNE defended the conduct of his Noble Friend, the Marquis of Anglesea. Whether he considered the firmness or the conciliation of his character, he was persuaded that the Noble Marquis was one of the fittest persons that , could have been selected for the high situation which he held. The Noble Baron who had last spoken said he could not agree to the Bill, because he consi , 'ered that it involved a breach of the general understanding on passing the Catholic Relief Bill. He (Lord Melbourne) did not suppose that the dis franchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders had any reference to the question of Catholic or Protestant; and he did not think, therefore, that the present Bill would break any compact, or diminish the security of the Pro testant establishment. He believed that the bt ter por tion of the Roman Catholics of Ireland were attactad to t'te Union ; to show that the Protestants were not all so, he need only appeal to the petition which had been recently presented from one of the Guilds of the Corporation of Dub lin. He begged leave also to observe that the proceedings of the Protestant Assembly in Dublin were, in character, very similar to those of the Catholic Association. There was just as much eloquence (if that could be called elo quence which was entirely devoid of wisdom)—just as much violence—just as much exaggeration—just as much falsehood; and in that assembly it had been declared that a repeal of the Union was desirable. The Archbishop of ARMAGH, conscientiously differ ing from his Majesty's Ministers wish respect to this Bill, and looking upon it as calculated seriously to injure the Protestant interest in Ireland, felt bound to oppose it. It might be said, the wish to support the Proteitant esta blishment was an antiquated prejudice, which in this en lie htened age ought not to be listened to. If so, he really did not know why he, or any other Member of the Bench of Bishops, was among their Lordships. At the time of the Union, the Protestant religion was secured in Ireland, not as the religion of the minority, but as the religion of the great mass of the possessors of property. When the Catholic Relief Bill was passed, it was said by its sup porters, though he and others did not concur in that opinion, that it would strengthen the Protestant in terest in Ireland. The question which he now put to himself was this: Can the proposed change be effected without endangering the Established Church and the Protestant interest in Ireland—those bonds of connexion between the two countries ? The boroughs which were about to be destroyed were the only defences, however insufficient, of the Protestant Establishment in Ireland. The Bill would cause property to lose its due influence. The great majority of voters in the boroughs would henceforward support interests hostile to property. The measure they were now about to pass would give all power to that party which had long possessed the most deadly hostility to the Established Church; and he saw no means by which the subversion of that Church could he averted in the event of their passing the Bill, unless with the more horrible alternative of civil war. He was willing to concede much, but he could not give his assent to a Bill which was intended to strengthen the hands of those who were hostile to the existence of the Established Church, and proclaimed their determination to overthrow it ; and he, therefore, entered his strongest protest against the measure now before their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.) . . The Earl of RODEN commenced by complaining that the Noble Earl (Grey) had, in respect to the present Bill, as well as all the other measures of Reform, shown a dis position to consult his own despotic will and pleasure in defiance of the wishes and feelings of the Members of that House. That Noble Earl had refused all propositions for d thp,tv e oleih l wg a ci ioiei,,ntri considered . etni they e, present cye o r (he r : d ewtt e hno r eoet that rkeaptaa snwst( the i)lanyveg to,. discussion, sw P en u e h e tsa : r it iseoi threatened;sncco, Housean andnl ae e nd c dtateolhilvlfeeotißrrvi overpowered le l ctirev:iefi foreseeing Ireland l le a ltt n i et : f allthe argument and reason by the threat of an exertion of of a deliberative assembly. For his (Earl of Roden'a) part, have been the original cause of all the calamities with miseries which must follow concession on that point, be had the satisfaction of reflecting that he bad steadily and consistently opposed it. He agreed with those who felt that the measure now under consideration would prove the final destruction of the Protestant interests, unless the machinations of the enemies of the Church were manfully and resolutely opposed ; and although the friends of that Church had been libelled as disturbers of the public peace, and stigmatized as an expiring faction, he thought the time was not far distant when Government would a t c i c Ze t r i d l i e v i n a i g , s a ,: o , that be compelled to call on them for the preservation or peace, the protection of property, and the support of legitimate authority. The p,,rty with which he had the honour to be connected were, however, determined in all things to act constitutionally, and, whatever might be the I b ta y ri listened to opi nions danger,d(Hiffiecaut,lthyeoarr.)theTiiegre Ire land had a Government wanting in energy, i❑ decision, that Government, an I and in temper ; a Government which had courted those at evilto (r)efsitshte cause n iv i h (n o i s fibateitom endeavouredi a t, i l asnid sides : ‘hstioicthh support.rivesapsedespisedbe could say with safety he bad never heard a good word respecting it.__( Hear.) It was said there was a third party in Ireland. He had directed much attention to that point, and he believed there was no third party in Ireland, nor no party or portion of a party which placed confidence in the Government.—(Hear, hear.) After contending that the whole of the Protestants of Ireland were hostile to the provisions of the Reform Bill, the Noble Lord pro ceeded to observe, that although quite willing to concede a liberal Reform, lie never could consent to have Protes tant corporations overpowered by Catholic mobs.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the better method would be to allow all the Protestant residents, under certain circumstances, to participate ifi the pririleos of the freemen.—(Hear.) Without this the Bill would be merely I . slaohg a new wea pon in the hands of those who were struggling foi a tepeel of that Union, which could only be preserved throu g h the influence of the Protestants. The Noble Viscount (Mel bourne) had used some very harsh expressions in peaking of a society to which he (Lord Roden) had the honour to belong. Among °theft thidgs; the Noble Viscount its.! declared their arguments to be ay vide ' r add 4.i ihlngermitc as that of the Catholic Association. He denied tliks;dintl he called on the Noble Viscount to prove his assertion by facts. The difference between the Catholic Association and the Conservative Society was, that the one was insti tuted to uphold the Constitution, and the other to over turn it. The Noble Earl, after repeating his strictures on the conduct of the Government, and his defence of the proceedings of the Conservatives, replied to a statement of the Noble Viscount, that Mr. Boyton had igiefto *he Protestants were anxious for a repeal of the Union. The Protestants were not anxious for a repeal of the Union ; but, as Mr. Boytim said, the conduct of the Government might at length force them to consider it necessary. His Lordship concluded by declaring himself strongly opposed to the Bill, unless its provisions were materially modified in the Committee. The House then went into Committee. After a few words from the Marquis of WESTMEATH, the preamble of the Bill was postponed. Clauses 1,2, and 3, were then agreed to. On clause 4 being read, Lord W YNFORD moved, that the words " or other buildings" should be added after the word counting house, in order to prevent the possibility of persons having double vot, 9 for the borough and for the county. The Duke of WELLINGTON, Lord MELBOURNE, and Lord PLU NK ET opposed the amendment, After some desultory conversation, The Duke of RICHMOND said, that in another place, when the English Bill went down with a similar amend ment, every lawyer on both aides of the Hodge sdoutdd it,. Lord WYNFORD did not care what lawyers said id another place, the question was, what was right and what was wrong. Lord FLUNKET said, he agreed in the legal opinions expressed elsewhere. The Duke of CUMBERLAND thought all objections might be obviated by inserting a proviso, for the purpose of preventing a man, voting for a borough, from having two votes. The Duke of RICHMOND said, the effect of such s clause would be to disfranchise any gentleman who pos sessed a vote for Oxford or Cambridge, and who might also happen to have a vote for a borough. The clause was agreed to. The fifth el .use was then agreed to. Lord WYNFORD objected to the proviso in the sixth clause, and moved it should be wholly omitted. He con tended, that as the right of voting of 40s. freeholders was abolished in counties, the same right ought not to be prissived in towns. The voters in each ought to be put on the same footing. Lord PLUNKET said the Bill on'y preserved the right of 408. freeholders fgr their lives, as was also the calve with tie lights of freemen. The Duke of WELLINGTON denied that the rights of all freemen were preserved fi)r their lives, for the rights of freemen made since March, 1831, were not preserved. Un less this proviso were struck out, it was quite clear the Protestant interest must eive way to the Catholic. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said, that the non preservation of the rights of :regimen made since March, 1831, was no argument for ti e deprivation of the 40r. Ireeholders in the towns. If the Noble Duke thought the freemen unjustly treated, he might make that the subject of a distinct amendment when he came to that part of the Bill. The Marquis of WESTMEATH also opposed the clause. The Earl of RODEN said, it was most unjust to sacrifice the freemen made since March, 1831, and pre serve the tights of the lorry shilling freeholders. The former were sacrificed because rhey were Protestants—the latter preserved because they were Catholics. The Duke of RICHMOND denied this statement. Did the Noble Earl know when he proposed to retain those freemen that Mr. O'Connell made a s'milar motion in-the House of Commons ? and surely Mr. O'Connell was not a gentleman who would seek to elevate the Protestant in ter est. ( ar, hear.) The Duke of CUMBERLAND said, that it was of no consequence whether Mr. O'Connell or any other per. son supported the proposition. The real question was, whether the statements that the Protestant interest was in danger were correct or nor. The Nobla Duke opposite had voted against the Catholic Bill ; but he much regretted that lie seemed to It .ve abandone I his Protestant feelings. —( Hear, hear.) The Duke of RICHMOND said, the Noble Duke seemed to suppose that there was no friend of Protestantism in the House save himself and one or two Noble Lords with whom he acted.—(Cheers.) He denied that the 8.11 was subversive of the Protestant interests in the slightest degree.—(Cheers.) He challenged the Noble Duke or any Noble Lord to show that he had ever given a vote in opposition to Protestant interests.—(Cheers.) He did vote against the Catholic Relief Bill, because he was opposed to it at the time; but the Bill having been once carried, he gave his hearty co-operation to carry it into effect.—(Hear, near.) This, however, he must say, that he considered the only benefit that would arise from that Bid was the doing away with all religious distinctions...... (Cheers.) But bow could that desirable object be carrried into effect when night after night they heard from the lips of Noble Lords Roman Catholics denounced, and Bruns wick Lodges and Orange Meetings were found following their example ?—(Hear, hear.) How could the peace of Ireland be preserved when such gross misrepresentations of the conduct and intentions of Government were held out ? Why, at one of the meetings in the North of Ice land he understood this was the language used My boys, keep the Bible safe in your hands, and take care that your powder is dry."—(Hear, hear, hear.) The only wonder was, that when such language as this was held, Ireland was not in a state of rebellion. He contended that Catholics were the King's subjects as well ae Protestants —that they bad equal rights, and that the Government was dealing out a measure of even-handed justice. Vas he, therefore, for this to be made the subject of such at tacks ? He repelled them with the respect due to the Noble Duke, but with the warmth which they were calculated to excite.—(Hear, bear.) The Duke of CUMBERLAND disclaimed any intention of offending the Noble Duke. But it was he who corn• menced the attack on his Noble Friend near him. The Earl of RODEN said, the Noble Duke opposite (Richmond) complained of being attacked, but he com menced by an attack on bins. The Noble Duke considered as a great flaw in his character his bringing forward the interests of Protestantism.—(Loud cries of " No, no," from all parts of the House.) He rejoiced that fault was found with him for such a cause. Ile wished that Noble Lords whom he saw laughing at what he said, felt for the Protestant interests. Neither the Noble Duke nor any othifiaine°l:ll:iernhniii;l:dg.s. members to I other person should stop his mouth on that subject. The Noble Duke, and all who voted for this Bill, proved them selves unfriendly to Protestantism. He denied that the meetings in the North of Ireland denounced the Catholics, they only denounced his Majesty's Government. Lord PLUNKET said, did the Noble Earl imagine a right of arrogating to himself a monopoly that he was the only Protestant in that House?—(Hear, hear.) It would appear from his language that such was oelf pinion.—(hear, he monopoly ; y r . . ) ,a o r . lia .k m ) ro en te t s . tan T tis h m e f H e e had no right to arro gatesaid he was not a friend to monopoly. Yet there was a town in Ireland called Dundalk, containing 10,000 inha bitants, over which he exercised a monopoly, and returned Protestantism, Noble Lord said a Member to the House who was most odious to the whole of its inhabitants —he meant Mr. Gordon, the most odious man to the inhabitants. Lord WYNFORD rose to order. The Noble Lord bad no right to say that any man was odious. Lord PLUNKET contended that he was speaking as much to the point as Noble Lords who preceded him. He did not say Mr. Gordon was personally odious, he meant bins uu disrt.spect, but he said be was odious to the inh bitauts of the borough on account of his politics—his po litics were the same as those of the Noble Lord who re turned hint, and both were equally odious to the inhabi tants of Dundalk. He proceeded to contend, that the langutge used at the Conservative Meetings,their desire to appal to arras,—and their abuse of Govern ment for not pet witting the contest between. Protestant and Cithlic, was anything:but conciliatory; and then, re verting to the question before their Lot clships,argued that it was by no means a measure of justice to deprive Owe pers ins of the franchise who already `had it. Residency here was necessary, as well as in the case of freemen, and those who now possessed, the.frftichise,were to hold it for life in the same way as the '4OG — freeholders. Ia fact