The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-05 00:00:00

r~ F • -- Why then, all those- who lid not-wish to see per sons in Holy Orders coming into that House, must wish to sec a Bill brought into Parliament.. 'Think ing this a case of magnitude, aed.thinking it essen.e tial to the House and. satisfaEtorr to the Public to have it settled ; he declared'a readiness to move for leave to bring in .-a Bill, to remove doubts upon the Eligibility of Persons in Holy Orders taking Seats in that Housee uniess some other Member better qualified iheuld .undertake the -task :' but if -'the House shoelel vote `differently from what he hoped it would, he.should vary -the title of the Bill for which he should move leave to bring in, If the pro position before the House was merely to declare that 1 a person in Holy Orilers was irieligible'to a Seat in that House, he should have skippered the affirmative ; the whole of the present proposition,- however, he 'could not support, and therefore .was, under the - necessity • of onosing ft.—ln opposing a measure 'which contained something which a pet son approved, and something to which •he dissented, there were several courses to follow, either that, of moving the Previous Question', or the Order of' the Day.— There veere parts of the motion ofethe No ble. Lord Which, if they stood . alone, for instance, that of a new Writ in this case, he would ha;ve been pre_; pared to meet with a, direEt negative ; but that - mode of meeting the ;propos it i on would be liable to misrepresentation, because voting against *prove. sition, although he approved of part ofit, wouldlook like disapprobation of it altogether : therefore to pre. elude the possibility of any doubt upon that subjeEt, ated to put the House in The way of getting at the ulterior' objea, and as he conceived the general, Wish - Of the House, he now moved that the Order of the Dayebe-now read. . Mr. 7. HORNE MOKE said, he had never .. hatiTut two personal struggles in the course of his life. He hoped he should not be told on the present occasion that he was out of order in detailing the circumstances of theme The first was, when zit the Uniyersityhe applied for the Degree of Master of Arts, 'n• thing which was never- refused. or even e li e puted in any case except his own ; indeed he was convieced that either of the Universities would confer it on a . great dog, could he only speck two wards of L. His claim was' disputed by a friend of the Noble Lord, the la teLord MaNTrOtte . . He did not -nunerrieon to make any observations or give his opinion of rite chaeaElee of that Noblemen. He is 'dead, and de morMis nil, he was -sorry he could 'not in this case, however, apply the latter part of the adage- else should . speak no evil, and he bad no good to say.: The-seem - al petsonal struggle which* had Egli; was respeEting being called to the Bar. By the' advice. of a ,Noblemane - One of the greatest and most ,venerable- charatlers known to the country, the late Lord.Aslii3 URNHAM, he deter ' mined to turn his-nteeneiona to the profession of the Law.. In ITO, he entered into the Inner Temple, to which-he yet lielongt. I-le kept .his Commons tegelarly : .but ...Alen he expected to be called along *rich others he was passed - over.' Mr; ,s,o'l EO N• ro se'ro speeke tie Order. A lotid can immetliav=4' l-oceeded from the Opposition lienChto- hear Mr.. 'I" OOKE. The Sitextx Mei .el ' said that the observations which the fired, - an e• lea se. Geettemarf was :making:did not seem to him... at all app licable to. the question, but lie. had not • ' interrupted him, because he had at the firstlentiet .thrown hi ne self.ppian the House, to he heard without • • iiiterruption- 011. the two points . . on which he bad been speaking. • • _ , • . me:SIMEON said •heaenly. spoke to Order; be _ _ - cause:the Hon.- Gentleman seemed to birn to b e froceediog- to throw relie4tionseoo-#.large and re. 'apeaable.elass. of men. . . Mr. TO ICE - resumed. --When the Benchers of the inner Temple refesed to call him to the Bar, he - :Was not' toll thee, the Law was, against hint. He 'was not told • that Precediots were• against him. \o such thing. Their plea was, indeed, that be had been in Holy Orders 1 hut they 'did not peetend that their 7 decislen was sandioned either by Litw or Pre cedent. ille:was the only individual who was ever rejeeled on this ground. The Benchers of the Inner Teinple, at flier time applied fur the opinion of the oilier lons of Cotite, whether they would' call to the Bar a liceson Who had been in Holy Orders. This application, he would ' contend, was the Clearest decie 'elm which they tdulteve; that no -objeClion really •eeisted to _his beingeealled to the Bar. The late -c o Ale c e e . t. OICof • the EXC HEQUER, - at one • time, stated it as his decided opinion, that it was an irre. fragable 'and incontestible.evidence - -of the truth of the inference which he had just- drawn freatt•it. l - ie mentioned these thing; merely to shew in - .what o wner 'lie- bed Berri treated in former instaocee. - His t rcattrient.' in the present case, he would con tend to 'be stiliotiore •iejurions. -Ile had been treat ,' '- e d by the' Noble • Lord, - this evening, ets.;ifi ,he bad L i 'been standing , his • trial for -a felony. • On . a formet aright, he hail been•ealled open to stand up and show - k himself. He did not know, if the lion. Gentleman, w hb veeca u e deopo alieu, ew as. now_ .ite the House; _at any rate, he, f re mthe 7 weakness . of his eyes; :could not see his countenance. ' ' But, he believed, that there could be nothing so terrible in his looks,. as :to make him - afraid 'of. chewing hithseli tolihn. He had been guilty o f nothing which could make him fear, • at any part of his life; . to shew - himself to that Hon. G ent l e man, or' to the world. The nexe',part.of his treatmenthad been a Metion.by the Noble Lord, that he should' be' ordcrth to attend this day in his place: Why- was this Motion 1 . What was the crime which ' he was called to answer 1---Hati_ he oiretided against the,; ules and'Qrders of the House? No-such -tba rge •was adduced.- For; his-own-put, be perfetily agreed that the , Place of a Member of etheibuse, is a b u rthen; , .atterided wi,thi-and prb , dative ofareat trouble and expence; He war not anxious to retain it. .He: Wanted it not to 'screen him from debts. He owed none, nor would he ever owe any.. He was too independent in his mitv.l and , in his principles, ever to subjeit,hirnsclf to the hu miliations -arising from such .a state. It had beers very fairly and very truly ttated by the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that allowing the Clergy to sit in this House would tend to increase the - in fluence of the Crown. But will denying them this right,. screen the' House from the iufluence appre hended 1 Is not the case of Sit' RI CHAR-D WIWI'. TESLi'Y 'fresh in the recolleCtion of every Gentle. man, and is it not knotvne that who he Was a Member of the House, he adually held Livings of very considerable v:Joe in the Church ? In the discussion of-this questiop, the House has heard a great deal of Law - and a great deal of_ Divinity, or rather, a great' deal of the cant of both For his own part he did- not mean, in what he had to say, to use much of either, for both appeared to him very unintelligible or very dangerous, when not chastened by the exercise of common sense. He had read a good deal of Law, and he had also 'read a good deal of Divinity ; he believed much more than the Noble - .Lord. But if he had not had recourse to common sense to chasten and correct hi's reading, his • Divinity and Law . -together might have driven him into arrant stupidity and folly. In discussing this Question, he should endeavour to: say nothing which the plainest common sense may not at least understand. The natural manner for arguing -the Question appeared to him to be, first, on the reason of it ; secondly on the law of it ; au! thirdly, on invariable usage and custotn.—But -for the sake of brevity in the observations which he had to make, he would depart a little from this atrder.. In the first place, he would attend A little to the precedents quoted in the' Report :on the Table. Evidence Thad been called to prove that he had been in Holy Orders. This was merely for form, for lie had always acknowledged that he had been in Orders, and that he had held the Living of Brent_ ford. But to return to the Report, he was at a loss to know whose Report it was, for he had found it repeatedly stated in the Report that the Committee had caused search - to bz made. By whom was this search made ? Or :how were those who made the search authoriSed to 'make any Report to the House ?, It is in yarn to . say that they were authorised by the Cortunitte the 'Corotnittee were merely delegates of the flekase for a speeifi c e purpose, and there is no maxim of law clearer or more incon trovertible, than that, delegates . cannot , delegate. He did nut, mean, however, to insist ea this as an.objeaion to - the Report. Take it then as it is laid before the House, and he could not here help observing, that though athe Inquiries are said to have been carried as far bacli'as the reign of Edward the First, the -Report itself containa but a verse little morsel of Old English. He did ; cot lay any blame on the Committee, but he did expeci that they, would have taken care, - at, least, tintt - those whom they delegated to make search, iaheithi.. have beett acquainted with the Chara&ers in 'which the Doeu.' ments they were to search into are written. As it happens, however, there are no leO' than eleven blunders, in" charaaer, in the course of twentyaotte lines. (Mr. TOOZE here - made some observations on the' Old Saxon Charafler, and its variations, in proof of his assertion.) Thesc ob, , ervatimis were not immediately important, but he thought there could be 'no 'harm in seating - these-things. for . the improvement of the Delegates cf the Committee,' should they ever aga . in be ' einployed on : a similar business. The Report states, that the Committee have laid before _the House all that bears on the Question, 'and all the Precedents which -can tend to guide to a • decision upon it: But he would con tend, that they have not given to t h e H ouse a ll that : bears 6.tt the . Question. There hare been other disputed cases, and there_ have been Reso intionseemsed by the 'House, declaring the in eligibility of certain persons or classes of persons, who have aftersvards e • withont any formal reverial of these eestaltitionse -been allowed to sit -in the House. Such' has been thecase with the Attorney- General far :ate titnc being. Resolutions were re peatedly come to bYthe House, - declaring his incapa city kisit in it. Yerthese resolutions - are never now brought forward as a-proofol his ineligibility. Inother cases, respeEting which, the impropriety of admitting pasta* holding certain Offices was more apparent, 'ittts,of Parflumept were passed declaring their ineli gibility. For int Lance,' Ails have been passed, declar invy ineligibility of Coramissioriers of Excise and Customs, o(CoMmissioneri of the of Pensioners ditrinplelsure, of Contradors, Now if persons having been or being in Holy Orders, are improper persons -to sit in this House, why is not an Alt passed, as in 'AI , : instance he had just men. doted, declaring their ineligibility ? - should not oppose such a law, though if it was' introduced to 7 exclude should contend thati_aa an ex pa-folio law, it was unjust in the highest degree. So far as it would afi'en himself he 'should feel quite ititiiXerent, for a seat 'in , that House lie did no: consider as any great objea of ambition. However he cotild not help Thinking it a little cruel in the-No bleLord, inst when he Was eraleavouring to (kiwi ve • him of his seat, to slew him, in the pious and learned _discourse which tae del:Jo-red, all the great ad vantages which he Wothl lose in ,being excluded from the' House. A Bill to declare the Ineligibi lity. of • Persans holding Benefices in the Church to .sit in the House of Col:mama, tly be a very proper thing—indeed, if only carried thus far, it should have his approbation. And were it evens_ extended to all who ever had been in Orders, he shoald not, on his own account, objets to it. But till such a Bill is passed, be would assert that he had as good. right 'to his Seat as any Member of - the Houk, and he held ,it his duty to maintain his 'right as strenuously as if he cared about it. The Noble Lord has suffered himself to be • very much misled as to the Law of. Parliament re., spefting Eligibility. He has quoted the opinions -of Coke and Blackstone, bur he could mention no less than four eminent writers on this subjeft, who have laid down the Law precisely as he himself.held it. He recolleded the name of Christian, a coin mennitor on Blackstone ; and that of Mr. Hatsell, the late Clerk of the House, whoae..knowledge on this subjeft must be supposed to entitle his opinion to the highest respea. An Hon. Nit:the: of the House, he believed, he who had a few minutes ago called him to Order (Mr. Statwoat) has written a book, in which he asserts that there ate several Re- , solutions of the House of Commons, declaring the ' ineligibility of persons in Holy Orders to . sit in the House. That Hon. Gentleman, he believed, was also a Member of the Commitee by whom the-Re p ort is drawn up, but it is unfortunate for him, and the credit of his book, that in that Committee he mild not find .any • of these Resolutions which he says in his book do exist. To. come to the precedents stated itt - the Report of the Committee, of which so-much had been said : theyearebut three in 'ntimber. The first:of them-hanpeoed no less than z 6 -8 years ago ; another of them is also of a very • old date. The gtottnds or ineligibility Stated in two of them are, apt the persons : acre or might ,be' .Members of .the House of.Convq..eation; in the third only, the ground stated is, that the person was in • Holy. (Moss. But in drawing. up this,Report the Committee seem to have _entirely overlooked a Canon of the .same date with dint : declaring the ineligibility of persons in Holy Orders to sit in. the House, if not the subsequent part of the same Canon, in whichit is declared that Rectors, Vicars, &c.. shall not have, any : vote for Knights of the ,Shire .to serve in Parliament.. And in his opinion this-declaration was right and proper, for if the right of eligibility is taken away, the right of cieetion ought_ to accompany,..it .he conceived that the right of cligibilitm' and of election, except separated by express ...Statute, must always go !land in . But the Tight of voting. fok the eleaion of Knights .of the Shire has been confirmed. to the Clergy. by two separate Ads of Parliament, one of 'Queen Ann, and the other of George the Second; and if ,they have now the right of voting at eledions, he would contend that thesame Aels give them a right to be eleeted, except express Statutes can Ise adduced to the con. trary. ,At all events; the Noble Lord lied made him pay dearly. for his seat during the shore tune he had enjoyed it, by the trouble belted given him. To take off-the weight of Sir Edward Coke's 'au thority, as, quoted by the Neble Lord, .he : would beg .leave to quote part of a Letter written by him to the Vice-Chancellor of The lieiversity of Cam bridge, just at the time 'when the rights of sending Representatives to Parliament. was conferred on the thnversities. 'This Letter is to, be found i in the archives of the TioiverSiry, and in it Sir, Edward Coke realinmenda to the University not to return aTersonin Holy' Orders, ore Member of the House of Convocation. The reason of this recommends_ Lion merely is not that such persons ,haee been de, 'ermined by ;he House to be ineligible, but than doubts have existed as to their eligibility. The Learned Gentleman (the Attorney-General) seems entertained with this authority. 14e supposed that he 'would soon deliver his opinion, and then perhaps he would •be entertained in his turn. He wished much to hear the opinion of the LeareedGeeileman, and of the other high Law,Offi..lers of- the Crown. ' He wished much to hear their opinions, and he would listen to - them with respect; but if they 'hail • . nt . any In•eton of ploying any tricks upon hiin, they would find that he was not a Person so easily to be duped. Now, as to the: reason of the question, he would find it .necessary to say but a few words. It knows to lie no uncommon thing for Gentlemen of fortune to endeavour to previde for their younger ' the Church. Suppose a Gentleman procures, or perhaps himeell confers upoie . a seCeed son a living, ie. are Church of cool. a year, no matter whether mine or less. Ey the death of his elder brother, this second soe succeeds to a fortune of eight, nay,, perhaps,: eighty thousand a year. He would ask the Noble-Lord, if this Getoleman was efterwards returned a IVlenther -of Parliemenr, if he woold come forward and move •his ineligibility to sit in the House, oe the ground of his having been in Holy Orders ? He Would ask the Noble Lord, if he would have the boldness to move she House to declare that such a Freeholder as - this, possessing atl annual Income of eighty thou;and pounds, was an unfit - person to. represent the Con eons of (ireat Britain in Parliarnenr? . This instance wits of it self sufficient : •to shew' how - unreasonable is the doctrine- held by the Noble Lord.. As to hiS awn case, ho conceived that nothing had been proved except that forty years ago he had an excel lent charaaer. e It •was ntee no part of hie wish to overturn 'any established superstitions, or to destroy those which people.may have imbibed from their nurse Or their maniple. But without entettaieing this wish, he might have strong and cogent reasons fur resigning his Clerical chaeader. Had he pro fessed Popery, the argument against him would have had much greater weight, for according to the dee trines of Popery,. Ordination' is a sacrament, and when once -ordair:ed,- lie could not have laid aside the charade: conferred upon Wet by this Rite. But according to the dectrine of the Church of . Fetglend, Ordination is oniv a simple Rite, unmixed with any superstition. According to the .principles of Popery - the Priests cannot marry ; rat -. the doetrines of the Church of England recognise no such- silpersiiiiOn, and Priests had shewn that they arc as fit- for per fOrming the duties of T rnz:rriape as any other class of men. Even the Church of Sieeleud then acknow ledges, in praCtice, the pro o reety• of ReCotol on established principle:, -and h.-:iniabc see sc . :wtiiing IA the doasine;7s of dint Clintil in his opinion ntight require reform, and .Nel , % ich might ipduce him to lay Witiwut ev , - his cha eaten in that•Churche Ile -wished earnestly, to caution the House how they leedsile. with his Seat, after the manlier in which he ,has been treated. by. it. In consequence of a decision of the House respeaing a Petition which he had pre sentesl to it, he had been put to an expeoee Which was very buttleesome to him. But that Petition was pot rejeCied because, he was an ineligible person to serve in Parliament, but was merely declared frivolous and vexatious, so that the House itself, by its decision, had left _him in the opinion that he was eligible, so that he had been induced to stand a Candidate for a Seer, Median after Eledion. He would be much better off had he been aTapist ;.had he been a Jew, Heathen, Mahonietare Jesuit, Ana baptist, otePresbytetiane - there would have been no objection he supposed to his eligibility. Had Popery been the Religion of the Co o redy, and be been a Clergyman of the Church, he might. have- been ab solved frorp his vow of celibacy, and the other.cle rical distinctions, by the Pope. But according to the' doctrine.. his night laid down,. he. having . once been in orders in the Church of England, he has no such resource. The House has been told that aecord ing to the Canon Law, a . person who V011141t7. yha aside his clerical clotreder is subje(9ed te :emit cation, but that this exconirtwi:c ,!; , poive him of his clerical charaate vested of this cherneter, he stye. commit seine crime winch would subje deposition ; for instenee, imitete the e the Rev. Gentleman who was a convicted, of adultery. By 'cern.e;: a person who is in Holy Orders may to a 'seat in the House-; but exconlinuniulion, , 1 :r . ~~ • . . . cOnsdtpenee of a voluntary, and not etiminal IVY., oily deliveie him over so .the dsili leav:s him still his eharafter us - a Clergyinan, and Still irieligibli ' Ik opposition to this Canon, or: Which so much saes/ has been laid, he begged leave_to read another, iif much in force at the present day as the Oilier:.--(Mr: l TOOKk here read it l and by it all Clergymen Avila exercise, or attempt to cast out devil;, or to raise evil spirits, are declared subject to the punish.: men't of deposition)..—Now, if he had given any 'such of ; for instance, if he bad attempted to 'cast out a devil out of any Gentleman, a Member of that House,. he would have been eligible to a,scat in it. But because he had voluntarily, innocently, without giving offence, laid aside Ms office as a _ Clergyman; he was to be declared ineligible to a Seat in the House:He must be guilty of some crime, it seems, before he can be eligible. It really put him in mind of the girl who went to the Mag. Men Hospital, and applied for admissions She was answered, that there was indeed a place vn. 'cant in the house; but she was desired to state Bet . . claims to admittance, " How was you ruin. ed ? How seduced ?"—" Lord, Sir I (rep Tied the . girl) me seduced llam as innocent as - the child un., born." She was then told, that if shy' was innocent _she could not po3sibly be admitted ; but if she ‘vish.: ed to gain admission, she mast go away and qualify herself for the situation: Similar was the language , which had been held to him. As to the reason of the . question, he had a few mote observations to make: It is the duty of Members of that House to - watch over the pubtia safety, and to endeavour to prevent or remove the dangers which threaten it. But with this it is said the Clergy have no right to in terfere. What, shall a person in Holy Orders 'on board a Ship not put his hand to the pump to save the 'Vessel from sinking ? or handle a bucket to put out a fire ? This is not the language, of Sedaries, but of reason and common sense.—.- It here occurred to him to mention ,one Ow g which he ,ought .to have mentioned before. Theme are three learned Professions, Law, Physic, and Divinity. In all Civilized society each of 'these Professions are guarded against the intrusion of it:- norance, lest the ignorant should be imposed ups ti by the ignorance of other men pretending to know ledge. Lithe two former professions, after the t-.. quisite knowledge is ascertained by form ml exam._ nation, the Candidates for them acquire the full right to perform all their duties. But there is a differ. ence in the third Profession, which neioer the -Noble Lord nor the Right Hon. Gentleman seem to have been aware nf. A person may be formally ordained and admitted to Holy Orders, amid yet have, no right to performn . any one of the duties of the Clerical Charafter. Before he can have a right to perform any one of these duties, preach, administer the Sacrament, or baptize, he must have sonie be.. neficein the Church, and the moment he lays aside that benefice he again loses his right to perform Clerical Duties. But it would not be difficult tp prove that aClergymaii may he as useful as another man in civil or military affair's. Thecasc of the fa. mous Dr. WA.LKE a, who bravely defended Londoti (Jerry during its siege by Jmers 11. is well known. Klko WILLIAM was anxious to reward bins by be.:owing. on him a Bishopric. The Bishors iv. terfered, and said, -this roan has indeed performncti great services; but his hands have been imbrued in blood, and he, cannot be a Bishop.. Ktsio WI I. - LIAM was anxious to reward him in some other way; and as he could 'not make him a Bishop, he gave • him a Rcgment, and Doetor, then Colonel Wm.. KER ., was. afterwards leillei, fightin gallantly hi his side. Mr. Toal:r then mentionclzi number of cases, which he argtted to be ieconsistent with the doarinei held by the No'ole Lord. )-le said there had lately been a Member of this House, a person in Holy Orders, and Colonel of a Regiment - of Mi: litia--i'llis tiar:ne (was called fi r , but-got , g ! . ,e4).:-. - ROB !MON, the Bishop of - Dublin, was Laid Privr Seal ; Lord CHO !MONDE LEY held two Livinis in • the Church; Dr. PRETTYMAN, the Bishop of Lin. . - coln, WITS at one time Seenetary .to Mr. PITT ; Doctor O'BEIRNE, Bishop of Meath, was Sc. cretary to the Mkt . of PoltlL .IND ; the present Bishop of Deßßic takes -his Seat in the House of Lords . as Earl of Bit ts.ro;, ; the Archbishop of CASH EL takes his Scat in - the seine libtse as Lord SOMERTOt7i Mr.-Goznoti, an irrieemte friend of the late Clerk of the Housti, Mr. HA rsELL, and a ' • Layman,' .was presented to the Living of Madras; .amid he finished by being a Coiumissioner of the. ViEtnalling . Office, which he had no hopes of doing. The late Minister himself, Mr. PITT,. recommended to His Majesty to dignify with a Peerage, under Orders, legally,nhhrgee ' l Country.---Mr. h rao e nu it. n e Hiti ; oo n yul d ,s.Lei c n i 7 t :tvf l o e t rl ii tv. afolLserd;oirc Tooth: tr H n: : ti cs, to t :tn s. cal leasts t lnu s dd , eaad, that p mw e r ai sgtothi they ect i )ar n yau a : eie ltaly toei :1.1 and to make the Law before they enforced Mr. S,IOEOAT spoke at considerable length in support ,of.the original Motion ; but Wished at the' same tinle_that the Noble Lord would consent to divide it into two ; one abstra(t, declaring the i n . eligibility pf Persons in Holy Orders, the other ap. plying, that Motion to the case of the Hon. Gentle. man who had just sat do ;n, by moving for a New Writ. itfr. FOX said, that althOugh he should concur in the Motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman for the Order of the Day, yet he by no means agreed with him•in the 'reasons upon which he made that Mo, tion. He was rather surprized to hear-the Right Hon. Gentleman. say, that even if this had been s i m pl e a b st i a a question, he should also have thought it' right to move the Order of the Day -; he . could not help thinking it .rather a singular conduCt, though, perhaps, it might be a prudent one. It appeared to him that the House must be in a very strange situation, when it was thought right to get rid of a Motion of this kind, by inoving.thc Order of, the . Dav, at the same time that it was contended that the person against whOM the Motion was made, had no right to sit in that House. It seemed io be admitted, that that House could nor make a Lavi -Aing the eligibiiity.of persons to sit in ;he same time, it was proposed to assume with the Law. He should, :cr , vo te for the Order of the Day,- which as complete decision against the Noble Lord's Marion, and he would shortly state it) 'ioie House the grounds upon which he' should ~ , vcr or d