The Sun. — London, England, 1832-07-24 00:00:00

laries p,id to some of our Co'onial Governors, at a time when the colonists were complaininz of severe distress. Sir C. WETHERELL said his chief objection was to the H •n, Member's voting that black was white, which he hal dove on his own admission, in voting for Ministers on the occasion alluded to. Mr. HUME hid on that, as he had (lone on many fir mer occasions during the progress of the Reform Bins, voted with Minis:era on points where be differed from them, but he had done so front a wish not to embarrass them, kn..wine that they had enough of embarrassments from the attack.. of those who sought to mike those dif ferences of opinion the means of turning them out of otlioe.—( Hear, bear.) Ile repared, that the qtusiicin the tither evening was not one of economy He would appeal to the Right Hon. 13aronet, the Member for Tamworth (Sir R Peel). and ask him whether, if be were in (Ace, he would not pay the money to Russia? He would put it to that test. That was tire view he took of it, and he had a right to take and to state what view of it he thought proper, without being subject to the remarks of the Learned Gentleman, couched in language which he was sure no aber Member of that Howe would use ; hat he would not take any further notice of tin! Learned Gentle man's language. When the Hon. and Learned Gent'eman talked of t conemy, he (Mr. Hume) would ask him what measure of economy, or, lie might say, whet other measure of public utility had he (Sir C. Wetherell) ever supported by hit votes in that House? Mr. GOULBURN must concur with Lis Hon. and Learned Friend io thinking that the Hon. Member for Middlesex was altogether inconsistent in the vote alluded to, even ern his own admission. After a few words frorn Sir C. WETHERELL, Mr. HUNT said, that he was the guilty party on this occasion, and that the charges of the Learned Gentleman, of miserable, pettifogging, cavilling. were meant fir him. It was he who had proposed the reduction of the salary of the Governor, and he thought that the suns wlfi'elt would remain, of 1,8001. a year, would be sufficient for him. Mr. S. RICE would appal to the very next vote in the list, where there had been a reduction of from 6,800/. to . I.'oo/., as a proof that Govurnment would have reduced the present vote lower if they could consistently with the public service. "Mr. BURGE supported the vote. The amendment was then, by leave, withdrawn, and the original motion agreed to. - The next was, that a sum of 8001. be granted to defray the eh .rge of the civil estaAshment of Nova Scotia. Mr. ROBINSON looked upon the refine ion made in this vote as an earnest of what Government were di. po,ed to do, when they could, in tip! way of reduction. He hoped that in time the whole of our colonies would be made to hear the charge of their own civil establishments. Lord HOWICK said, that this vote, as had been already intimated by his Right Hon. Friend, had been reduced from 6,900/. to its present amount, and that the 800/. orou;(1 be discontinued next year. The motion was agreed to The next was a sum of 5,624/. 119. 8.1. for the civil establishment of Bermuda. Mr. ROBINSON asked why the colonial secretary of that colony had so large a salary as 1,500/. a year ? Lord 110 WICK said, that the colonial secretary was a must important race in every colony, and he did not think the pay in thin instance much exceed-d the general average such situations. But if it did any thing, Bermuda being convicted colony, threw a considerable degree of additional bm,iness on the secretary. After a few words from Mr. DIXON, Mr. Bu RUE, and Mr. S. Rit}.;, the motion was afire. d to. The 'sum of 1,023/. was voted for defraying the charge of the Civil List Es;ablishment of Prince Edward's Island to the Ist of March, 1833, after a short conversation, between Mr. HUME, Lord Howtux, Mr. S. Ra.E, and Mr. DIxoN. The sum of 16,5761. 'vs propotli fm- defraying the charge of the Civil Establishment of Newfoundland, fm the same period. In answer to a question from Mr. HUME, Lord HO WICK said, that now the people of New— foundland had e.n assembly, they would very so,n, he was convinced, though not to the extent anticipated by the Hon. Nlember for Middlesex, endeavour to defray their Own expenses. Mr. ROBINSON observed, that he hadeeason to know that the people of that colony w re dispoged very shortly Its take that course. A considerable saving might, how ever, be effected, by abolishing the Admiralty Court, and the I.,bra‘lor Couit, which were unnece,sary. 2,000/. i,r 3,000/. a-year might also he saved by giving up the colo nial vessel. One or two small vessels of war might he placed on the station for the pnrpose of preve , ,ting smug gling ; and, at the proper seasons, the Governor might make lie necessary visitations in one of them. The vote was agreed to. The next vote proposed was 43,0431. 7s. lit, to de fray the charge of the Civil Establishments of Western A rica. Mr. HUME observed, that a Committee of that House had, some time since, recommended the abandonment of Sierra Leone and Fernando Po ; and he wished to know why that recommendation had not been attended to ? Lord HOWICK said, the Hon. Member was mistaken in supposing that such a recommendation had been given. It had been recommended that the establishment of Sierra Leone should be removed to Fernando Po, and it was very uncertain whether any settlement could be made there. With respect to Sierra Leone, be had authority for stating, that much improvement had taken place in that colony. If they now withdrew from it, the whole fruits of the ex pence would be lost, and the black population would, h feared, find their way into the Spanish colones. Mr. HUME doubted whether Sierra Leone was in an improving state. Lord tiOWICK bad received a letter so lately as May last, which showed that Sierra Leone was improving. Sir G. MURRAY said, that these settlements had been set on foot, in consequence of the desire which the people of this country felt to put an end to the slave trace. Sierra Leone was the situation first adopted. But the principal scene for the operations of the slave ships being in the Bight of Benin, great mortality occurred on board those ships, when captured, in the voyage between the Bight of Benin and Sierra Leone. It was therefore deemed afivisahle to remove the settlement to Fernando Po. This change was recommended before he came into office. His own opinion was, that by pursuing this course they created two evils instead of one. If France acted up to her own treaties, as this country had done, more would be done for putting down the slave trade than had ever been effected, and there would be no necessity for retaining Fernando Po, a station which he looked upon to be quite as unhealthy as Sierra L, one He should be sorry to see Sierra Leone abandoned, because he thought with the Noble Lord, that through that channel civilization might ultimately be introduced into Africa. 111 r. DIXON preferred the retention of Fernando Po to that of Sierra Leone, because he thought the former place the more healthy. Lord SANDON was of opinion that they ought to pause before they determine,' to give up Sierra Leone. The vote was ag, , eed to. The sum of 27,438/. I3s. Id. was next proposed, to defray the charge of the ecclesiastical establishment of the British North American provinces, and for the propaga tion of the Gospel. Mr. HUME could not suffer this vote to pass without observation, when he knew that almost every man in Upper and Lower Canada was adverse to any such grant being sent there. Let it be observed that this grant was nut for the support of religion generally, but for the support of a small sect, forming not 1-20th part of the population. If the Noble Lord did not give some assur ance that this expense would be reduced, he should make a motion relative to it. Loud HOWICK said that as tie clergy, who were now paid by the Government, died or were otherwise piovided for, the people of Canada would be called on to support their successors. Mr. HUME—What! Bishop and all? Lord HOWICK—Yes! Bishop and all. Sir R. H. INGLIS thought that adequate means should be provided for the purpose of affording religious instruc tion to the people in cur colonies. Wherever the flag of England waved, the church of England was there the church established by law, and he made not that state ment on his own authority alone, but upon the high autho rity of Mr. Locke.• Mr. DIXON, as a member of the church of Scotland, which was as much established by law as the church of England, could never sit by in silence and hear it assertee, upon any authority, either ancient or modern, that where ever the flag of England waved, there the church of Eng land should he the established religion. The true way to alienate the feelings of Canada, as we I as of Ireland, was to make the people of those countries ply for religious estahlishmeots to which they did not belong. Lord HOWICK did not see why this c,,untry should be called upon to maintain a church establishment in Ca nada, any more than it was called upon to defray the ex pense of maintaining a police establishment in that colony ; as Canada was sufficiently age of itself to support its er chesias:ical establishments, England should not be bur- The 96th article of the laws of Carolina was not drawn up by Mr. Locke, but was inserted contrary to his express opi nion ; and, in fact, contrary to the ,pirit of the article imme diately preceding it.--[ED.] dened with any portion of the expense connected with ther maintenance. Mr. LABOUCHERE expressed his satisfaction at the course ad ,, pted in this instance by his Majesty's Govern. :rent. With regard to the statement of the Hon. Baronet “pposite, that wherever the fl ig of England waved, the church of England was the established religion, he begeed to remind him, that the Roman Catholic church was, in very respect. the established church, and that, too, on the solemn faith of treaties, in the province of Lower Canada. Mr. HUNT approved of what had been done by Ministers, and was only sorry that they had not gone fur ther in reducing this grant. Mr. SHELL said, that the Catholic church was the esta blished church in Lower Canada, and that as such it col. 3••cted the tithes there from the Roman Catholics on the :itthority of an express Act of Parliament—the 14th G•o. HI. The Protestants, however, in Lower Can rda were xt•mpted from the payment of tithes to the established c' urch there, thus supplying a case rather different from that of a country somewhat nearer home, where Catholics were taxed for the support of an overgrown Protestant church establishment. Mr. GOULBURN objected to the reduction of the grant. Mr. S. RICE said, that so far from Parliament having been hitherto cognizant of thin grant, the greater portion of it had been generally supplied from a quarter which it would puzzle the most ingenious gentleman in the Howe to conjecture,—namely, from the sums voted for the army extraordinaries.—(A laugh.) It could not be s lid, then, that the principle on which this grant was made had an nually came under• the cognizance of Parliament. This colony was fully able to support its own religious establish ments, and, tinder such circumstances, the best course ebvinusly to pursue was to throw them on the colony for their support. Sir G. MURRAY maintained that this country was bound to provide the means of religious instruction for the people in our colonies. At the same time he begged to s ty, that so far from approving of the maintenance of any exclusive system in the colonies, he thought any such sys tart there bad and dangerous. lie did not deny that this particular grant should be withdrawn, but he entertained considerable doubts as to the justice of withdrawing it so rapidly as the Government proposed to do. Mr. ROBINSON was not quite satisfied with the hasty change proposed to be made with regard to this :'rant. After a few words from Lord SANnoY, the vote was agreed to. Mr. S. RICE then moved that a sum not excesding ;'7,500/. be granttd to his Majesty to enable the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to afford aid to the schools for scrip • ural education in that country. Mr. J. E. GORDON opposed the grant He main tained that no system of education would tend to improve Ireland that was not based upon the Scriptures ; and he was at a loss to conceive why Government should he in duced to interfere with a system of education which was now pursued in that country—a system such as was not t goalie in any other country, and to which the Roman Catholic population were not, as bad been urged, opposed. lie could not hesitate saying that it was had policy to in terfere with the schools now established in obedience to the wishes of the Roman Catholic priests and bishops. It is true, th it out of IS applications for aid, 164 schools list] been established ; but it was most important to notice, that only 29 clergymen had joined in the applica tion. So it appeared on the returns which bad been made ; but it was a most important consideration with regard to the Protestant Church that he should men. Lion, and he spoke from inquiries which he had made, that out of that number of 29, 14 were Arians, Seceders, or Presbyterians, so that there were in fact only fifteen clergymen of the Established Church who had responded to the appeal of the Metropolitan Board, of whi,:h a Protestant Archbishop was at the head. Ile maintained that the schools under the new system were exclusive in their character, though it had been urged in their favour that the reverse was the case, and yet it was for such a ayst. , ni that the present grant was now sought by his Majesty's Government. Taking into consideration even the fourth class of schools—he meant the hedge-schools, the very receptacles of rags and penury _yet out of a population of 10 000 Protestants, it would be found that no more than 100 were in attendance upon the schools under the system of education proposed by Government. He held in his hand the proposed form of instruction, with reference to the Ten Commandments, and which wire copied partly from the Roman Catholic version of the Scriptures—partly from the Protestant version, and partly from both. In one of the Command• ments it was said, " Thou shalt not ntaketo thyself any graven thitig," and this form had been adopted in order that the use of the word " image' should not militate , gainat the Roman Catholics, and yet this change was to be forced upon the children of the Protestants of that• country; and, therefore, to this extent an accommodation was afforded to the Roman Catholic p! iesthood, for this was absolute reversion or inversion of the principles of the Established Church. Again, in another portion of the Scriptures selected for the use of these schools, it was ascribed, as the Roman Catholic beiieves, that the Virgin Mary should have the power " to crush the ser pent's head," but which it was a part of Protestantism to deny. He must object, therefore, to such interpretations b-ing given in notes to scriptural sentences to be used in Protestant schools. Sir A. JOHNSTON asked the Rieht Hon. Secretary whether it was intended to comply with the prayer of the petition of the General Assembly of Scotland, to the ef fect that the fullest li erty might be granted to Protestant children to read the Scriptures ? If this reasonable requi -ition were complied with, he should offer no opposition to the vote. Mr. STANLEY said the scheme, as originally laid down, did not prohibit the establishment of a Bible class in every school, if it were desired by the Protestants in attendance. It would be the duty of Protestant ministers to attend to that ; but if Government were to insist upon having a Bible class in every school, they would be insist ing on a regulation that could n tbe complied with in many cases, and which would be evaded in others. This was precisely the case with the Kildare-street Society. They insisted upon that which drove away the Catholics from the schools by the very name of it, at the same time that evasions were resorted to in many instances, which had the effect of leaving the Protestants without substan tial religious instruction.—(Hear ) In framing a system of education, it was necessary to look to the circumstances of the country for which it was designed, and he contend ed, that a scheme which might perhaps be applicable to England or Scotland, would not succeed in Ireland. In England or Scotland, we might possibly insist upon the forma ion of little classes in the schools with advantage; but in Ireland such a proposition would drive away the poorest and most ignorant of the people. He denied that the framers of the Government plan of education were averse from or indifferent to Scriptural instruction; the schools were not intended to do away with Scriptural edu cation, but to give as much of it as it was possible to pre vail upon the people to receive. —(Hear, htar.) Mr. MACNAMARA questioned the accuracy of the information of the Hon. Member for Dundalk, and could state from his own knowledge that the return relative to a school in Clare was incorrect, the name of the party re ferred to being a forgery. Mr. GORDON believed that the signature of the honest man in question was authentic. Mr. MACNAMARA said, it was not the name of an honest man, but of an honest woman—(Great laughter)— and he repeated that the signature was a forgery. Mr. M. O'FERRALL accused the Hon. Member for Dundalk of misrepresenting the tenets of the Roman Ca tholics in order to induce individuals to vote in a particu lar way. On a former occasion the Hon. Gentleman made some assertions with respect to the College of May nooth, Which he (Mr. M. O'Ferrall) had been blamed for not answerin.! ; but if people in Ireland knew the degree of weight which attached to the Hon. Member's obser vations in that House, they would scarcely find fault with him (Mr. O'Ferrall) for his silence. Mr. GOULBUIiN opposed the grant on the ground that if applied as proposed, it must inevitably tend not to unite, but to make a marked and indelible distinction be tween the two sects of religionists in Ireland, by fixing particular days for religious instruction to be administered to each separately. Mr. S. RICE assured the Right Hon. Gentleman op posite, that he, in common with others who supported the new plan of education, was quite convinced that all in. struction was inefficient if not based on the foundation of religious education. Protestants and Catholics were alike agreed in that principle. It was not denied that a system of education was necessary. The only question was, whe ther this system was the best. It had been said that this was an unchristian and mere literary system ; but it was admitted that two days in the week were appropriated to religion ; and iu the tour first days, besides literature, extracts of the Scriptures were read ; and the observa tions of the mixed Commissioners on these extracts dis tinctly recognized the principle contended for by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulhurn), for they admitted that education rested on the basis of the Scriptures. He (Mr. S. Rice) protested against the opinions. of Protestants being allowed to determine this question, especially at the present time, when party spirit was excited, and the grossest perversions of facts were circulate!. If an at tempt were made to revive the Kildare-street schools, he had no objection to its being done at the expense of indi viduals, but not of Govrrorr&nt. Sir R. INGLIS contended that the effect of the system of the Commissioners was to exclude the Scriptures from the schools four days in the week Sir E. HAYES said, that the people of Ireland would never submit to a system of education which authorized a mutilation of the Scriptures, in order to suit the prejudices of the Catholic priesthood. Mr. WYSE supported the grant. Mr. LEFROY contended, the uncontrolled use of the whole of the Scriptures ought to form the basis of a system of national education. Colonel SIBTHORPE opposed tie grant. The Committee then divided. For the Grant GS Against it Majority £11,161 was then voted to defray the expenses of Maynooth College, with the understanding that the dis cussion on the subject was to be taken on the bringing up of the Report. The House resumed, and the CHAIRMAN reported pro gress. To be taken into consideration on Wednesday next. The Russian Loin Bill was read a second time ; to be committed to-morrow. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at a quarter past three o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 23. Lord RADNOR presented petitions in favour of Reform and against tithes from a parish in Mayo. Oa the motion of the Earl of SHAFTESEURY, several Rills were forwarded a stage. Lord SEFTON presented two petitions in favour of the new pl in of education in Ireland, from Liverpool. Lord PLUNKETT presented similar petitions from the presbytery of Antrim, and other places in Ireland. MAIL COACH ROADS (IRELAND). Lord ORIEL begged to ask the Post-Master-General whether be had made an inquiry into the subject of a complaint preferred by some petitioners a few nights bark, of the inecurity of the mail conveyance on a part of the road between Londonderry and Dublin, and of a change in the line of road. The Duke of RICHNIOgD said he had made the re quisite inquiries, and saw no necessity for altering the plan which had been recently ad,pted. the Protestant interests of the Crown and the Esta Wished Church. A measure that proceeded not on these principles, bat which gave the greate‘t influence to the Catholics in opposition to the Protestants, which this measure did. could not he a sure mode of proceedinq, and under such an impression, be meant to give his negative to the second reading of this Bill to night. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had listened to the Noble Duke with great regret, for he had ever comidered the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill as the proudest act of the Noble Duke's political] career, and he wondered how the advocate of that great measure of justice and toleration could now endeavour to rip up and inflame religious dis tinctions which he had hoped were destroyed forever. And what did the Noble Duke's argument amount to ? Sim ply that the people of Ireland were chiefly Catholics. Was that a reason why they should he shut out from the benefits of the Constitution ? If the Catholics possessed wealth and power—were in a situation in which they could independently exercise the right of suffrage—why should they not be invested with the suffrage right?— (Hear, hear.) But did the Bill only extend their influ ence ? Pray would any man at all acquainted with Ireland venture to assert that the Catholic influence would predo minate in Belfast, Newry, and other such towns ; or venture to deny that when the Catholics, as in Galway, would be the chief electors, that they p )sses•ed every claim of property, intelligence, and independence? Noble Lords were in great error if they persuaded them selves that Ireland was still to be ruled by the bayonet. No; the reign of mere force had passed away, and if they wished to preserve the British connection with that coun try, they must not persist in their struggle against public opinion, daily becoming more and wore enlightened, but act towards the Irish with even .handed justice.—(Hear.) The Earl of LIMERICK a;-.tre , ol with the Noble Duke th it the present Bill would overturn those arrangements which were adopted at the Union, and on the passing of the Catholic Relief Bill, for the protection of the Protestant interest in Ireland. Well he remembered the emphatic language of the Noble and Learned Lord (Plunkett) in the Irish House of Commons, of which he also was at the time a Member, against the measure of the Union ; and the present Bill proved that the Learned Lord was correct in predicting that all the existing institutions of that country would be immolated at the shrine of the mother country._ Lord PLUNKETT sail he was unwilling to provoke firther discussion, and would only trouble their Lordships with a few words. His Noble Friend (the Earl of Lime rick) kid alluded to the Union between England and Ire land. At that period they were both Members of the Irish Howe of Commons; but upon this question they had entertained very different opinions, and had given opposing votes. He had opposed the Union vehemently. No question had ever since arisen or ever would claim his attention which could so occupy his heart as that measure had done. He had considered that the passing of the Union would have been the extinction of the independence of his native land, and he had struggled against it with all his might. But he had lived long enough to find that he was then mistaken, and to correct the prophecies he bad then uttered, and the anticipations which he had then entertained. He did then imagine that Ireland would have been thrown, bound baud and foot, at the mercy of England, and that the power thus conferred would have been mercilessly abused. He was entirely and agreeably disappointed. He never, since the period of the ['llion, knew a question affecting the interests of Ireland, which was brought before the United Parliament, that was not alone treated fairly, but even with partiality and kindness, in consideration of the former misgovernment to which the country had been subjected. He therefore confessed that he had been en tirely wrong in his views, and now protested as strongly as mieht be against a repeal of the Legislative Union, for he felt that from that might follow a separation of the two countries, which would be alike prejudicial to the best in terests of bosh. It was accordingly with great grie that he heard the Noble Duke (Wellington) declare that he would give his vote against going into Committee on the Bill under consideration. For this was in effe t to declare that he would deny to Ireland that Reform which had been conceded to England and Scotland. It was saying that in Enelanc. and Scotland, by the mass of the people, awl by large majorities of the House of Commons, and by the decree of Parliament, rotten boroughs were rooted out as a disgrece to the Constitution—were excised as sores and ulcers, yet, nevertheless, they ought and should be con. tinned in Ireland, as p trt of the Constitution of that coun try. Now he contended, that if there was one course of conduct more than another, which was calculated to fill the ranks of these anxious for a repeal of the Union, it was t , is. To hold out to the people of Ireland that alts ough abuses had been swept away in England and Scotland, they should he continued in Ireland, would be, he repeated, the most disastrous sentiment which could possibly he held nut to that unfortunate country. He lamented likewise the n servatinne which the 1\ ~ b!e Duke had made. He (the Duke of W,llington) had argued the question as if it were one of Protestant and Catholic. He con-id, red that he might, even taking the qua scion in that light, prove that the Noble Duke was mist ken in the condlus-on at which lie had arrived; but lie would net comic cend to argue the question on such, grounds.—( Hear, from Eat 1 Grey.) He wool(' ask, had the Noble Dike's great tneasure indeed been carried, if they were oow•a-days to legislate or argue upon the authority and existence of those ancient grudges be tween the two religious parties? It they were so to do, he bad no hesitation in declaring the Noble Duke's mea sure was one of two things—useless or mischievous. He remember, d that when the Union to which the Noble Eall alluded had been brought forward there had een no ques tion entertained respecting Calhorie or Protestant: the promoters of it were wisely anxious to keep all such ques tions out of the way. The measure was carried, and how?—with strong objections on the part of the Protest ants, and by nothing approaching to an unanimous ap proval on the part of the Catholics; and yet great exertions bad been used to reconcile theni to the measure. And then, as to the towns and the coun ties of towns to which representation was granted ; how were they selected? Thirty-four boroughs re ceived this right. But he never heard that any portion of them received it on the principle that they were to be bul warks of the Protestant interests. Let them only recall to mind how these boroughs were selected. Laying aside the University, thirty-three great towns were chosen, which in the aggregate possessed a population of 800,000 souls. Were these selected as the bulwarks of Protes tantism ? He never heard it intimated at the time. The feeling on the part of those who made the arrangement was, " We are doing a fair thing by Ireland in reserving the representation to the most wealthy and populous towns and cities." In what way was it subsequently acted on ? Why the representation of seventeen of those places, having an aggregate population of 180,000 per sons, was disposed of by seventeen gentlemen. Would it be then said, that in doing away with this scandalous mo nopoly, they were dissenting from the principles of the Union? He never, certainly, did understand the principles of the Union after this manner. It never occurred to the opponents of that measure, that they could use it as an objection. He never used it; and yet he had opposed the measure as vehemently and as industriously and as strenu• ously as he could. But then it was said, in objection to the Bill, that the forty-shilling freeholders in the coun ties of cities ought to be disfranchised. If so, why were they not done away with at the time of the Union, if these boroughs were, indeed, intended as the bulwarks of the Protestant interest ?—(Hear, hear.) It was urged that these forty-shilling freeholders were entirely under the influence of the priests. This, for himself, he did not believe; but it was unnecessary to dwell, upon it now. Again, it was said, that in this Bill they would be depart ing from the principle of the measure of 1829. He did not think that adjustment had been made upon the principle which the Noble Duke had that night stated—that was, that originally forty shilling freeholders in the counties of cities had been preserved as a balance to the power of the free men; and therefore that now that you limited the power of freemen, you ought to disfranchise the 40s. freeholders to preserve the balance. But here it was in the first instance assumed that the 40s. freeholders were entirely a Roman Catholic constituency, under the influence of their priests. Now, this was not the argument used for the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders in counties. The argument was, that they were a constituency always tinder the influence either of their priest or landlord ; therefore, they were to be disfranchised, not because they were a Roman Catholic constituency, but because they were a►t incapable constituency—because they were not an inde pendent constituency. Now, here too was a second assump tion respecting freemen ! Was it true, that freemen were of necessity Protestant ?—certainly not. Roman Catholics might be freemen of Corporations at any time. Until after the passing of the Relief Bill in 1829, they were excluded trout Corporate offices by the Oath of Supremacy, but by this only—and now that it was done away with, they might accordingly be freemen, and hold any corporate of fice. In short, they enjoyed every corporate right. Why was it, then, that these boroughs became to be considered as bulwarks of the Protestant interest? Because there was a monopoly upon the part of those who possessed the rights of election, and they never would elect Catholics. W e ll, then, how did the case stand ?—how was the mea sure of 1829 to be viewed ? It wee either meant to operate o►• riot to operate. Now if it was intended not to operate, it was a mere mockery and delusion. But if it were in tended to operate, why should they object to measures that gave or secured to Roman Catholics those rights to which they were fairly entitled under the Relief Bill ? But really he was wandering from the question before their Lordships, What they hail to consider was thin, were• they likely to have an independent constituency? Noble Lords opposite said this Bill would let in Roman Catholics, who would firm a areat maj airy of the con • stituency. Now he did not believe it would But if Roman Catholics were in possession of that station and wealth which entitled them to a majority in the constituent body, why should they not have it ? On the occasion of the production of this Bill in 1829, how was the mater argued ? On one side, they said, take care how you pass this measure; it is not a small body of Catholics you will admit into Parliam , nt; but if it be passed at all, let it be frankly acted on. The same sentiments respecting the mode in which it should he acted on were uttered from the other side. And if they did not so do, the Roman Catholics would lie more exasperated, and justly, than if the measure had been completely rejected. Undoubtedly it would be more galling to be shut out from advantages to which they were entitled by law, than to have been re fused the concession of them originally. His Noble Friend (the Earl of Limerick) had attacked the influence of the priests in Ireland as most mischievous. Now, of al things, he would most earnestly deprecate the giving a religious tincture to the disturbances which unfortunately prevailed in Ireland. This was the only thing wanting to dissipate all hope of peace, and tranquillity, and union in Ireland. He could give a distinct denial to the allega tions which charged the great body of the Roman Catho lic priesthood with advocating the cause of mischief and separation. Of the higher portion of that body he could not speak in terms of too strong approbation, or too great respect. Their exertions, he maintained, had been most meritorious to preserve the peace. But he at the same time allowed, that there were some most mischievous per sons in the Roman Catholic priesthood—men who had incurred a most desperate responsibili'y. He declared that he would not have on his soul the weight of te sponsibility attaching to some of those persons, for any earthly consideration.—(llear, hear, hear.) But were they not thus looking merely on the one side ? Hid they no priests but the Catholic priests to disturb the country?—(Hear, hear.) Were there no other priests who used violent, and abusive, and inflammatory language —who attended public meetings as agitators, and lost no opportunity of giving offs - ce to their Catholic fellow subjects? Would it, however, lie fair to throw all the odium which must attach to such proceedings upon the gnat body of the Church of England clergy? Certainly nor. He did not believe there was a more exemplary class of men in the world than the Protestant clergy of Ireland. They were humane, charitable, generous, learned, and pious ; their existence in affluence and respectability was a source of support to religion and peace in that country ; they were the most eminently serviceable class of resident gentlemen in Ireland.—(Cheers.) But should not equal justice he rendered to the Roman Catholic clergy?— (Hear, hear.) Nobody could venture to deny it ; and farther he would say, as to the great body of the Roman Catholics, that it never should be assumed they were on one side and the Protestants of Ireland on the other. The fact was, the great body of the Protestants were no more represented by those who came forward in that House and elsewhere, and declared—" I say upon the p art of the Protestants of Ireland"—than was the great hotly of the Roman Catholics by the dema gogues and agitators. He believed that the great body of the Roman Catholics were fully sensible of the benefits they had derived from the Union ; of the increased prosperity—of the additional coins ferns, they had acquired since that period. A great por tion of the country had visibly improved under the benefits conferred upon it by commercial relations with England; and he firmly believed, that if one-half the influence had been used to reconcile and unite the two classes which had been directed to embitter their hostility, they would now have a peaceful and a prosperous country.—(Hear, hear.) It had been frequently said that he was an enemy to the Protestants of the North of Ireland. He denied that he ever was ; they formed, in his opinion, as good materials I for excellent and peaceful subjects as could possibly be found. They were loyal, religious, industrious, cou rageous, rational; hut they were persons capable of being excited and impelled to embody themselves for mischief, if their superiors chose to excite them. And he could not acquit men, in a station of life from which one might have expected better things, of having resorted to those acts which were used by the demagogues in inflaming the passions of the foolish portion of the Roman Catholic body. But all nose tumultuous and illegal proceedings must be put down. The full powers of the law should be directed to this object; and if those powers were not sufficient, they would call for new laws and greater pewere.—(Hear.) He agreed, however, with the Noble Marquis, that the best way to take the arms out of the hands of the agitator., and resentment out of the harts of the public, was by the removal of meal grievances. He had no doubt that deciding that nis Bill should not go into Committee would be regarded by the great body of the people as a refusal to remove their grievances; and he did delieve that this Bill would, if passed in its essential principles and details, he received with gratitude by the people, and would be eminently calculated to allay the disturbances which prevailed. The Duke of WELLINGTON, in explanation, stated that he objected in particular to the principle on which the execution of that pact of the measure which related to the boroughs was founded, and also to the principle on which the measure in general was to be carried into execution. The Earl of LIMERICK remarked, in allusion to the Learned Lord's observation. touching the influence of the priests, that the anti-tithe meetings, and the opposition to the payment of tithes, had been first excited by a Catholic prelate, and was encouraged and maintained by the exer tions of the priests. _ _ The Marquis of WESTMEATH was surprised that he had not heard the Learned Lord's objections to the close Irish boroughs at an earlier period of his Parliamentary , history. He denied that there was either the same ne cessity or the same demand for Reform in Ireland as there had been in England. The alterations which 'lreland wanted were of a very different nature from the speculative advantages presented to his view in that Bill. There was no reason, at all events, for enlarging tile representation on account of trade or commerce, and making the consti tuency more democratic. lie would not oppose the Bill, hut he had heard nothing to induce him to alter his opi nion of its want of necessity. Lord TENIPLENIORE alluded to Belfast, and re. mark,d, that the Noble Marquis could scarcely think that the representatives of that large commercial town should be returned by a sovereign and two burgesses. Lord- ELLENBOROUGH thought it would be better that the discussion should be taken on Thursday next, in consequence Lords of the shortness o w f thet Ireland. notice and the absence of the Noble The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday next ; and their Lordships ad journed at ten minutes to seven o'clock. MESSAGE FROAi THE COMMONS. Mr. BERNAL, Mr. F. PALMER, Mr. PETRE, and others, from the Commcns, brought up the Sheriff's Ex penses Bid, and three Private Bills, which were severally read a first time. REFORM OF PARLIAMENT (IRELAND) BILL. Lord TEYNEIAM presented a petition from certain freeholders of the county of Mayo, praying for additional Members for Ireland. The Duke of CUMBERLAND presented a petition from the University of Dublin, praying that the consti• tunic) , might be assimilated to that of the English Universities. The Archbishop of ARMAGH presented another peti tion to the same effect, from the Masters of Arts of the Univ-rsity. Lord MELBOURNE rose to move the second reading of the Reform of Parliament (Ireland) Bill. As this was the last of a series of Bills on the subject of Reform, he did nut deem it necessary to go into any lengthened argument upon the general question. In the whole of the debates upon this subject, it had never been argued, nor did he see how it could be ar gued, that it was not necessary to extend the same principles of Reform to the Sister Mend that had been adopted in this country. if it was necessary to extend the elective franchise to classes differently qualified from those to whom its enjavinent bad hitherto been con fined in this country, it could not be contended that it was not right to make such a similar extension of the fran chise to Ireland as the circumstances and situation of that country called for. It had been said that they had carried Reform in England further than necessity required, and further even than the expectations of the people ; but he had always felt that when we once began Reform— when we once admitted that boroughs were to be dis franchised, it was necessary to carry the principle to the extent they had done —(Hear, hear.) Had they done less, they would have involved themselves in a maze of inconsistencies, from which it would have been impos sible for them to escape. They could not by any chance have m ide any ii,lection of boroughs which would not have drawn down upon them the charge of partiality. But sup posing they had avoided hat charge. and had contrived to strike tif a part of the rotten boroughs up n a prin ciple which would have satisfied all, of tt.eir impartia lity, the scandal of those which would have been lett would have been greater, and the leaving of them would have caused more condemnation atnocg the people than the system had ever done before.—( Hear, hear, hear.) If that argument were good in Engl,n4, how much stronger was it as applied to the nomination boroughs of Ireland ? Had any boroughs been left in the hands of individuals in that country, the charges which had been always made against their oligarchical tendency, would have been aggravated a thousand times, and the scandal created by their sal, would have been in finitely aggravated by the manner in which the diminution of the nomination boroughs would have enhanced the price of those preserved. He was sure the House would not think him called upon to make any remarks upon the state of the representation of Ireland, either before or since the Union, or, as the elective franchise rested upon the same principles it did in this country, to enter into a statement so full of historical and antiquarian research as that which the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had found himself obliged to make, from the peculiar nature of the tenures in Scotland, with re gard to the electoral qualifications of that country. All that he proposed to do was to state the points of difference between the English Reform Bill and that, the second reading of which he now moved, with the reasons for those differences. The first point of importance was, that the representation of Ireland was to be increased by the addition of five Members, four to be given to large towns, and the remaining one to the University of Dublin. With respect to the first four, there was no question but that they had been distributed in the best na inner that could be adopted ; and respecting the other. he believed that a little difference of opinion prevailed; but he admitted that there was rnatier enough for debate, as to what would be the most proper constituency for the University. This was, however, a question for discussion in Committee, and could not influence the votes of their Lordships on the second reading. In the counties, leaseholders with three different qualifications had been introduced, and he believed that this provision would give the electoral franchise to a most respectable class of persons, have the effect of re. establishing the influence of landed property, and renew that link between lanalord and tenant which had lately been un fortunately broken. The counties of cities were put on the same footing with respect to the qualification as the counties at large,with this difference, that in the former,the 101. house holders were permitted to vote. With respect to the bo roughs, the Irish Bill followed the example of the English Bill. It gave the right of voting to the 10/. household ers ; and the boundaries were to be alt gyred, in the same manner as the boundaries of the English boroughs were, by a measure which was now in progress through the other House. The other provisions of the Bill related to the registration of votes, and the conduct of the poll ; and he thought it unnecessary for him to go into any mi nute detail respecting them ; but lie trusted that they woulf be found to facilitate the progress of elections, and to pre vent fraud and unnecessary expense. These were the principal provisions of the Bill ; and they appeared to him to be fair and equitable enactments, well suited to the cir cumstances and situation of the country, and likely to pro duce the greatest advantages. The present Bill effected a much less change in the representative system than the English Bill, and he begged leave to submit it to the care iul and impartial attention of their Lordships.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON, particularly in the ab sense of some Noble Peers whom he knew to be opposed to the present measure, could not allow this stage of the proceedings to pa ss , w i t h out o ff er i ng a f ew observations in objection to the Bill. It might be convenient in these times to reform the representation here, and even in Scot land, and yet not to introduce it into Ireland. ' In 1829, the subject of reformation in Ireland was considered, and an important m easure t h en a d opte d , b y w hi c h t h e differentin terests of that country were finally settled. The measure of 1829 was founded on the former measure, namely, the 40s. freeholders, and was calculated to put an end to the improper influence of the Catholic priesthood. Supposing it were proper, i n consequence of what had lately passed on the subject of the representation of the people of this part of the United Kingdom, to adopt a similar measure with respect to Leland, it was surely necessary to adopt that measure on the principle of the measure passed in 1829, and not on any new-tangled motives of the present day. This was the ground on which the Noble Duke meant to rest his opposition to this measure. By the mea sure a great preponderance of influen ce an d o f r i ght was g iven to the Irish Catholics: The rights of free men were put au end to after the d ea th o f t h e present freemen, the rights given to corporate bodies were b o o f th lB b 2 y 9. the lf such enact ment alterations oifon the English also put an end to. The Noble L or d h a d , therefore, de parted from the pr inci ples an i d aid the Acts down be introduced wi th resp ec t to count i es and towns in Ireland, they ought to be consistent with asw negtioish LIST OF THE MINORITY OF 17, AGAINST 37,500/. FOR FHE Encombe, Viscount 1 Gordon J. E. 1 Goulburn, H. 1 Hodgson, John I Holmes, Wm. I Inglis, Sir R. 11. 1 Lefroy, 1)r. T. THE VOTE FOR THE GRANT OF AID OF SCHOOLS IN IRELAND. Lefroy, A. Ross, H. Peel, W. Y. Sandon, Lord Perceval, S. Sibthorpe, C. D. L. Perceval, Colonel Young, J. Ryder, G. D. Rose, Sir G. H. TELLER. Hayes, Sir E. Mr. HUGHES HUGHES, after six months' trial of the Portsoken Aldermanic gown, has resigned it, on the plea that it does not fit him. RESISTANCE OF THE PAYMENT OF TITHES AT NEW Mitis.—The persons deputed by the Rev. CHRISTOPHER. How, Vicar of Glossop, to collect the Easter dues, or small tithes, having been twice much an noyed in their progress through the above town by an as sembled mob, deemed it prudent to relinquish for a time the duties they had engaged to perform. The collectors again made their appearance, accompanied by two peace officers, and on their arrival demanded the aid of the con stable of the town. Thus fortified, they again commenced collecting, and were again interrupted, found most of the houses made fast, and received no answer to their repeated knocking at the several doors. During this the mob in creased, and with their numbers their temerity increased also. As the purp ose o f t h e co ll ectors ap p ea r e d to be to convince their followers that they were acting upon a legal footing, and consequent l y h a d no right to submit to these repeated interruptions, they captured two of the persons conspicuous in the tumult, and carried them to Hayfield, where, having represented the matter to J. WHITE, E.g. that gentl e man, probably not wish in g to enterta in the complaint without the concurrence of anoth,r Magistrate, dismissed it, .and the prisoners were set at large, and met on their return by several hundreds ofinen, women, a w l children, who, precede d b y flags, with loud shouting, escorted them back to New Mills. Here the mob in creased to upwards o f a thousand. On Thurs day , very L Hayfield, w h ere, on tlo ie, ex cept one, were bet'? early in the morning , three p ersons on horseb ack entered the 'village. They were officers, bearing warrants t o t a k e into custody the pers ons already dismissed, a n d some six teen others marked on the s p ot b y th e constable of th , - town. They went , therefore , before the Magistrates on : to answer to a charge of riot , &U.— Chesterfield Gazette evidencett o h bail a dayi t oof a at thep tpheeacroPneast at the constable, the stnshieeoxnwt assizes at Derbys HAMBURGH PAPERS. DANTZIC, JULY 4.—Tne Russian fleet left us Vie 29th ult. Several commissioners a nd offil remain here, to get on board the barges on Oder the ammunition which is intended for Moi and Warsaw. We were mistaken in stating that the son of neral Moreau was one of the officers on board Russian fleet—it was Mr. Monroe, son of the sident of the I.l , .ited Sates. The ship Vigilance arrived in these roads are days after it . lef, nlittu, it being in absolute n eed; some repair. This ship is to convey 170 Pa t ' soldiers to France, who, to prevent any disort have - not been allowed to land here. ST. PETERSBURGII, JULY 7.—On the 240. last month, his Majesty the Emperor arrived, (le, unexpeetedly,at Reval. His Majesty was on bet the Ishira steam-boat, to accomp my his daughte the Grand Duchesses Maria Oliga and Alexellt Nikolajewna, to Fteval, whither they are g one, the purpose of sea-bathing. The visit of the PO cesses has attracted a great deal of company. , HANOVER, JULY 17 —His Royal Highness t Viceroy has issued the following Rescript TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE f : TATES OF THE KINGDOM. "The disorderly movements which for some time f r j have taken place in various parts of Ger m a n y, are knot to the Estates. Excited and favoured partly by e xte j events, partly by wore or less def e ctive poli t i ca l inso; thins, tartly by distress of various kinds, h was 0 ) hoped that well-intentioned Governments, and ape which has always been distinguished by fidelity and .1 1 1 merit, would succeed in aereeinz together upon what wants of the times required. But when, instead of 0 1 : passion endeavoured to lay hold of the subject, as and there a contest arose respecting the most import s . political questions, when foehearance was taken for web ; ness, and the use of brute force not merely taught, bat' tually carried into effect, it was necessary to inquire 11° .. , to prevent the consequences of a s t a t e o f t hi ngs w w threatens not only to convulse the countries where Ot things take place, but also the other German states wlo have not been visited by these evils. " But the examination of this question became the t 1 of the Governments not only with regard to themself and their confederate states, which had joined in the G er man confederation to find in it protection of their of rights, and security against internal or external date , , but also for tl.e sake of their subjects themselves, who only hope to find freedom and real happine,s whet) t/,' rights of others are respected and held sa c r e d, when .in public peace is maintained, and, therefore, a p oe sito obtained of remedying any defects and imperfections thoii. exist. But if this is to be done, the individ ua l G overn me in a Confederation, such as Germany, must not refuse necessary sacrifices which are required to meet the e u i mon wants, and to find in concord the force which 0,1. need, and which, if they are, perhaps, not yet visited similar evils, they must, however, lose, sooner or late!' they would severally pursue selfish ends. " Guided by such views, and faithful to the example his glorious ancestors, who found in respect for the .(4! stitution of the kingdom a glory, and in its strength additional means to promote the welfare of the cou nt( ) ; committed to their care, his M a j es t y th e Ki ng has 11., hesitated to give his support to measures which bave proposed by his high Allies as necessary to preserve to the Confederation and to the s e v era l G overnments the 10", which is necessary for the fulfilment of their destinatie and calculated to prevent greater evils. .., " The result of th ese negociations is composed f i e t' d ) resolution to which a ll th e G overnments of the Con 1 ration acceded by their Ambas-adors on the 28th of Pl' this year, and to which his Majesty the King gave l' i express assent on the Bth of May this year, because het that its contents are founded on the existing Constitut of the Confederation, and perceived in the resolutio o founded on general views, a guarantee of peace sod set' rity of his own rights, as well as of th e rig ht s an d Jittery of his beloved subjects. " For how touch his Majesty the King has at be) the welfare of the country, as well as its rights and libe l ties, could not be more clearly shown by him than to 0 his Majesty, almost at the same tim e , on th e 11th o f IVh l 1 showed to his fait4ul Es , ates, as well as to the vili v ,: i country, the principles which it was his pleasure should r observed in the drawing up of the Constitution. " But as his Majesty considers it to be necessary the welfare . f his subjects themselves to acknowledge, 0 ; without delay to fulfil, the obligations which he is unde o l a Prince of the Confede ra ti on , t h e ou bli cat i on o f I d above-mentioned resolution of the Diet of the 28th j June, has 'wen made by means o f t h e or di nance conta it!ri in toe annexed copy of th e c o ll ec ti on o f t h e laws, why' was issued in his Majesty's name on the 14th inst. „ " C nsidering our.e,ves bound immediately to coots nicate to the Honourable Estates now assembled this dinance, with the preceding remarks, for their infuri don, we have to add what follows " On the one hand, it will nut escape the attention ofl estates themse yes how advarable anti necessary it is is spect to the relations and rights of the Coatederation d i observe under present circuinsta.ntmi the requisite prudel snd discretion, and thus to make it more easy for tb, President conscientiously to see to the fulfilment of the ov;, gation. imposed on th em . O n th e o th er nan d, w e thio" . there is, however, anoth er i m p erat i ve reason now for n ' estates to carry into effect the resolutions signified ny Majesty, by accelerating, as far as is practicable, the 0 , 4 1 cussions on the Constitution, and by that means to anto7, 4 the confidence which the King has shown to the cone' by offering the Constitution under such circumstances. " We, &e. (Signed) " ADOLPH (/' " Hanover, July 16, 1832." HAMBURG, JULY 18.—The steam-boat from S t ; Petersburg has brought papers to the 11th, whi c i contain no news. Lord Heytesbury, his l a dy a ir daughter, and Mr. Baxter, secretary of Legatio are on the point of leaving Russia. Count A. Cal d'l,trias had arrived at Odessa, where he is in clu e ranWe tine. so have accounts from Constantinople of P o i 23. The Moniteur Ottoman mentions th e fall Acre. EXCHANGES ON LONDON.—Hamburg, July 20, 131 two months, 13 12.—Christiana, July 11, three m oot° 6 34.—Berlin, July 17, three months, 6 29i.—Bred: July I'7, two months, 619.—llamburg Papers, July ,' , HAMBURGII, JULY 20.—B OUSEN HALLE, a•i PAsr Two O'CLO CK . —Wh eat h as declined I",je week. In Rye an d B ar l ey t h ere h as b een lit" doing. . From the 7th to the 14th inst. 78 cargoes of O f ,: passed through th e S oun d, o f w hi c h sixteen wel bound for British, and sixteen for Dutch ports. „„s Weight. Rix-dor Wheat, Anhalt, white ll5 to 122 11 5 to 14 red 117 to 127 115 to ;0 Magdeburgh l2O to 125 115 to '- Mecklenburgh llB to 124 120 to 100 -- Holstein, red 118 to 125 115 to I r:A During the week 476 lasts of wheat have been ingior'' 274 exported, and there remains stock on hand 700 last' Stocks are a shade lower than yesterday. End of Juli' Anglo-Danish Loan, 3 per cent. Anglo-Russian Loan Russian Inscription, 5 per cent., ................ 85 % , Polish Bonds ........................ ........................... 10 7 Austrian Bank Shares .................. ........... 1117 A us t r i a n Metalliques ................................... 86b' New Austrian 4 per cent. ............................ ^s 2 '' ............... —Hamburg Reporter. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH will arrive at Dal keith in time to receive Prince ADALBERT and his aa w ' t h j who are on their route from Y or k to Edi n b urg h. Duchess and the young Ea r l o f D ALKEITH, the i r son , bar Lily left London, it is said, under an alarm of cholera. At the Countess GREY'S SOiri'e, on Friday evening, the approaching marriage of Viscount HolO C " with the lovely daughter of Sir JosErir CorLEY (S/i l l t re borough) w as announced ; and her Ladyship and '- NAL Premier rece i ved the congratulations of the (01; piny on the matrimonial connection which their b e t apparent is about to form. The mother of Miss cor o was Lady C ECIL HAmturox, eighth daught,r of t i„ 'l Hon. a n d R ev. GEORGE HAMILTON, four th son ° JAMES, seventh E a rl of --RERCORII. Lady CECIL 5 ' 41 A advanced ti) the precedence of an Earl's daughter (a di q c nity n o t exten d e d to h er s i sters ) i n 1789, an d i n 11. I was uni.ed to the late Marquis of ABERCORN, fr °l ; wh om h er L a d ys h ip was di vorce d b y A ct o f Parlione r l 1799, when the formed a second alliance with GO ° (now Sir Joy , rit) COPLEY. The Marchioness of Ar sl ‘: , t : h o e ll i s ne d s i e e n d t ( I )l. B . l t 9 e ,..lea o v f i ‘ n v g ic b K y i t .o h w e 11 ; la a r n q d ui b s y on s e irj chug oo b t r e j, : i i two daughters and one son. The latter is married ni t ' only daughter of Lord YARBOROUGH. The country papers winch arrived y e sterdaY continue to be filled with lengthened reports of the celehr:y. tion of the Reform Bill throughout the provinces. E' Ve where, in large cities and towns, a n d re m o t e villages e - , nci hamlets, the plan appears to b e th e g i v i ng a p u blic ea' d , taitament by subscription to the poor ; and the proms ings are conducted with harmony and tranquillity.