The Sun. — London, England, 1847-12-07 00:00:00

Were reduced to a condition which almost made them did not redeem his pledge, he would be prepared to fit inmates for the workhouse. The Hon. Member join his Hon. Friend in a vote of censure on the Go here read several extracts from the Irish newspapers, vernment. He thought the appointment of the Devon to show the prevalence of distress, together with an Commission was most mischievous if the measures and increased price of provisions. The Hon. and Learned recommendations it held forth were not realised.— Member then alluded to some of the proceedings of (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then referred the Irish council, and said that he entirely dissented to the accusations which had been made against the from the proposal of extending the income-tax to Ire- Roman Catholic clergy, which he pronounced to be land, which would, in effect, crush that country. unfounded and calumnious. He knew of instances However much the Irish Members were divided on where the clergymen of that church were most active other subjects, they concurred in thinking that no de- in dissuading from crime ; and he could show some pendence could be placed on the poor-law for the threatening notices which had been sent to Roman salvation of life in Ireland. Their representations Catholic priests and even to Roman Catholic bishops. were met by the reports of Government officials, who lie hoped that the Lord-Lieutenant would not wait had a direct interest in making favourable reports, fir the present measure, but that he would pour po tted representing things as better than they were. lice into the disturbed districts, which he had the The memorial of the Irish hierarchy to the Queen power of doing at present. The farmers of Ireland ought to command attention from Ministers, and were themselves most anxious for this Bill.—(Hear, convince them that something far different from a hear.) He was prepared to meet those cowardly coercion Bill was needed. The Irish hierarchy had assassins, not by an order to prime and load, hut to the full confidence of the people ; their representations present and fire.—(Laughter.) Those were the orders were supported by the bulk of the Irish Members, who he had given, and which enabled him to be there. were unanimous in declaring the poor-law insufficient, He had received notices, and this was the way he and in asking for some modification of the law o f would meet them. It was due to the honour of the landlord and tenant. Every one knew that a g r ea t country—it was their duty as men, as citizens, and amount of capital had been hoarded, from the inahi- as Christians, to support the present Bill.—(Hear.) lity of the tenants to employ it in the land; this Sir G. GREY said he was glad he had given an money had now been applied for the purposes of emi- opportunity to the lion. Member for Meath (who gration ; and its flowing out of the country could had risen at the same time with himself) to address only be prevented by a measure establishing tenant- the House, for his address had confirmed th. opinion right. Let parliament, while punishing the murderer, he (Sir G. Grey) entertained, namely, that it was do justice to the innocent and protect the oppressed. almost unnecessary to appeal to the Howe to reject Every past committee and commission had ascribed the motion of the Hon. Member for Kilkenny. Ile the evils of Ireland mainly to the insecurity of felt a conviction that not only the majority of the tenant-right. In the digest of Lord Devon's com- House, but the majority of the Irish Members, would mission the same fact was stated and deplored. not lend themselves, he would nit say to obstruct It was to be regretted that, while every pamphlet this Bill, but to obstruct the Government in reading which maligned and misrepresented the country was this Bill a second time, in order that its provisions eagerly laid hold of in England, and quoted on both might be fully and promptly considered. He had sides of the house, the testimony of one disinter- risen only to express his earnest hope that gen ested witness, an Englishman, Mr. Wiggins, had ilemen would feel the importance of entering upon been entirely overlooked. That gentl eman declared a consideration of this measure with promptitude, that the want of tenant right was the monster and that they would not be led away by the speeches grievance of Ireland. The same thing had been of the Honourable Member for Kilkenny and of asserted on the bench by Chief Justice Pennefather. the Honourable Member who seconded his motion This fatal cause had been long in operation, and into the wide field of discussion which they had would continue so, until Ireland was plunged in chaos opened ; and to state now, that it was not because he and blood. In allusion to the unhappy victims of the did not feel the importance of the questions raised by recent murders in Ireland, he was bound to state, the Honourable Member for Kilkenny—for he agreed after the attempts that had been made to blacken the with the Honourable Member for Meath, that many character of the peasantry, by representing the vie- of those questions did deserve the consideration of the time as men of the most humane and unimpeachable house—but because he thought they might be more character, that in several of those unhappy cases there conveniently considered upon other occasions —(Hear, had been harsh treatment of the tenantry. The late hear)—that he asked the House to postpone the dis- Mr. Roe was stated to have broken his word t o a cussion of them now, an d t o a ll ow th e or d er o f t h e day to be read, that th e Bill m i g ht b e di scusse d , i n tenant. In proof of this the Hon. Member read a letter from a Mr. W. Loghlin ; also an extract from which stage of the proceedings he should be in a an Irish paper, charging the bailiff Hill with making situation to address to the House a few observations an untimely distraint on a tenant named Quayle. The in explanation of som e o f th e prov i s i ons o f t h e Bi ll, respecting which he h a d b een m i sun d erstoo d , an d to Right Hon. the Home Secretary having, in a speech of three hours, raked u p ever ythi ng he could to remove some objection s w hi c h h a d b een ma d e to t h e blacken the character of the peasantry, and to exhibit Bill. This, how ever , was no t th e s t age i n w hi c h h e the crimes of those in low es t a t e , h e was bound to could enter into those e x pl ana ti ons , an d h e s h ou ld b e ex ose the crimes of those in a higher position.— only obstructing the b us i ness o f th e H ouse if h e were p (Hear.) The Hon. Member then read some further to lend himself to the discussion introduced by the extracts, reflecting on landlords generally in severe Honourable Member for Kilkenny and accept his terms, and stated that he had several others invitation. As to any feeling in this House or in in his possession which he should refrain from reading, this country against Ireland, he utterly denied it. because his correspondent had stated that some —(Hear.) It was the wish of every Englishman parts were perhaps too hi g hly co l oure d. G overnmen t that Ireland should b e r i c h, h appy, prosperous, and ought to pass a coercion Bill, n o t f or th e peasantry, contented.—(Hear.) I n E ng l an d , i ndeed, there was but for the landlords, for the sake of teaching them a strong feeling against the unchecked progress of their real int e rests. I n Ul s t er , w h ere tenan t- r i g ht crime and assassination— a f ee li ng enterta i ned on prevailed, the landlord wa s sure o f hi s ren t, an d th e both sides of the House ;and th ere was, h e hoped, a tenant was prosperous. Th e on ly o bj ec ti on t o thi s readiness to give the Govern men t an d t h e Lord-Lieu system was, that it prevent e d th e conso lid a ti on o f tenant of Ireland the means o f c h ec ki ng a d astardly small holdings; but that was a light evil, as weighed system of secret assassination, which was a disgrace against the great good which result e d fr om th e s y s - to any Christian country.—(Hear, h ear .) H e s h ould not attempt to go into the proc ee di ngs o f t h e last tern. H e ad voca t e d no th eory , b u t was con fid ent P that a recognition o f te nan t- r i g ht wou ld e ff ectua ll y Parliament with reference to thi s su bj ect . Th e Hon. stop the murd e r ous pr ocee di ngs t h at h a d recen tl y Member had brought a serious c h arge aga i nst the last taken place. To the pr esen t coerc i on Bill h e o bj ec t e d Government and the last Parli amen t— t h at party con in tot o , be ca u se it was unaccompan i e d b y measures o f siderations had prevented a du e cons id erat i on of the relief. As to its details, he objected t o th em because affairs and the condition of I re l an d. H e ( S i r G. they mad e th e L or d-Li eu t enan t a di c t a t or, an d gave Grey) would not enumerat e th e ac t s o f b enevolence him a power above the constitution. Th e Ri g ht Hon. done by . the last Parliam en t, th e acts o f generosity and of justice towards Irel an d—f or th ey were not Baronet who introduced the Bill h a d described it as one of merely local application ; but th e L or d-Li eu - only acts of generosity and b enevo l ence , b ut o f j ust i ce tenant, if he chose, might enforce it in every county —he would not ref e r t o th e d ays, an d wee k s, and in Ireland. True, h e was a goo d an d h umane man , months which had b een d evo t e d to measures to miti but it was not prudent to invest him with powers gate the distress, and destitution, and permanently arbitrary and unlimited. Another objection relieving the state o f Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) This so Was that the Bill embraced the penalties of the White- was not, however, the occasion to defend the conduct boys' Act, and made them applicable even where there of the Governme n t t owar d s th a t coun t ry; if t h e was no pr oo f o f ou t rage an d mur d er , as requ ir e d by Hon. Member b e li eve d th a t th e con d uc t o f th e Go the Whiteboy s ' A c t. Th e p owe r o f s e ar c h was a vernment had been c u lp a bl e , l e t hi m bri ng f o r war d a dangerous power, although given by this Bill only in motion fairly, and h e (Sir G. G re y) wou ld mee t hi m a mitigated form. As t o the power to call upon the in the same spirit ; but let not a question as t o th e country to go in search of the murderer, he believed conduct of the Government towards Ireland i n it would b e u tt er ly inefficient and inoperative. If the Past times stand in the way of a m easu r e Bill did reach a Committee, which he hoped it would necessary to meet a pressing evil, for at all events not, he should have to battle the several clauses which a measure was necessary to check the progress it contained there, and he would not, therefore, at of crime and assassination. For this reason he this state go further into detail. He called upon the should not say a word more now, but to entreat Government to relieve the distress of Ireland—to be the House to proceed to the second reading of the just to her—and thus to avoid the necessity of such Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Bills. Ireland could not be crushed down into utter The question was then put; when, misery without this country suffering also—nothinp Mr. O'CONNOR rose and said, if he had the could prevent the poor of Ireland from seeking rer ug ; slightest notion that the adopting the proposition of in England, and they would brin g fever into this coup- the Right Hon. Baronet would lead to the restora try, and throw the burden of their maintenance on its lion of peace and tranquillity in Ireland, he should he people. Again, he would ask what would h e th e the last Member i n th e H ouse to postpone the object state of Ireland in the event of this country bein g a t he had in vie w fo r one moment . B ut he was of war—how could rebellion he prevented there if justice opinion that the Right lion. Baronet would not find were denied ? Notwithstanding the wrongs of Ire- himself the better f o r the a id of th e H on . M em b er f or land, the English people advocated this Bill—all the Meath. It was an old saying—" Defend me from papers of this country, with the exception of the my friends." It had been the misfortun e of I re l an d that there never had been unanimity in her coun c ils. Morning Chronicle, were hounding on the Govern ment to coercion ; but that paper, to its credit, was —(Hear, hear.) Those who had undertaken to re advocating a settlement of the differences between present the distress, the grievances, and the situation landlord an d t enan t. Th e H on . G en tl eman procee d e d of Ireland, never could agree amongst themselves as to defend the Irish priests from the charges which had to the remedies.—(Hear, hear.) The Irish people, been made against them, and declared that b u t f o r however, were more fortunate now than upon former their exertions society would long ere this have been occasions, for they had a more patient hearing.— at an end in Ireland. Ever since the connexion of (Ilear, hear.) The Honourable Member for Meath the two countries Ireland had been oppressed, and had defended this Bill, but he had given only a poor whenever relief was given it was meagre and tardy. and equivocal support to her Majesty's Government. Eighteen months had passed since the last coercion The opponents of the Bill had at all events the de- Bill was proposed in that House, and not one measure duration of the Honourable Gentleman that he ex of justice had been adopted —not one single act of petted remedial measures before coereion.—(llear.) substantial kindness had been shown to Ireland, and The Hon. Gentleman's speech contained the strongest now they found the very men who had so nobly op- arguments against coercion The history of the world Posed coercion coming forward as its friends and offered no example like that of Ireland, where a mil advocates. —(Hear, hear.) lion of suffering people had been prematurely con- Mr., POWER condemned a coerc i on Bill f or I re - signed to the cold grave, and all this was b orne w ith "Ind, unaccompanied by remedial measures. He patience. Until those measures were tried which had wished to see crime put down by the strong arm of been effectual in the cases cited by the Hon. Member the law, but he thought the existing law was amply for Meath, and until the Government had tried the sufficient for the purpose. If extraordinary powers stringency of the ordinary law, this measure—he Were to b e crea t e d f or th e purpose, h e i mp l ore d the would no t ca ll it, w i t h the Hon. Member for Meath, Governme n t to look at the character of the men who a poor, pitiful, and dirty measure, and no measure at obey not have to carry those powers int o effect. Were all — ought not to be had recourse to. This measure Iney not the Irish landlords and magistrates, who ge- would bring the ordinary law into disrepute ; he brethren as an i n f er i or race ? S ure l y t h ey were aerell y had been taught to look upo n th e i r C e lti c would show that this was the invari a bl e resu lt i n a ll countries where the ordi nar y l aw was not exerte d , dangerous persons to be entrusted with such autho- and coercion was introduced ; and he would show ritY. The Hon. Gentleman then defended the Irish that the Government and the Lord Lieutenant had Priests from the calumnies which he said had been not strained the ordinary law, nor even pushed it to h eaped upon them, and declared that they were active its ordinary limits. The Attorney-General had been in their endeavour to prevent crime, rather than to asked whether the Government could change the e ncourage it. He proceed e d t o con t en d th at t h e venue in Ireland ;he (Mr. O'Connor) cou ld t e ll th e Roman Catholic religion was not incompatible with lion. and Learned Gentleman that the Government constitutional liberty, instancing Spain, Portugal, A could change the venue. The Lord-Lieutenant had, part of the United States of America, and, finally, moreover, the power of ordering a special com the efforts of Pius IX. t o g i ve f ree d om to ta I Iy, in mission ; he had the power of selecting his judges ( a Proof o f th e assertion. great power in England), and of appointing juries, Mr. GRATTAN said he would support the mea- and he had the power of resorting to the written sureof Government, b ecause b e thought the time ev i dence of the police when other evidence broke had come when humanity required support in Ire- down ; and all this by the ordinary law. It was the land.—(Hear, hear.) He would support the Bill for landlords of Ireland who were looking for this mea the honour of the Irish nation, which w. s tarnish e d sure. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for by cowardly murders.—(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Tamworth had said, the other night, that he w ou ld Friend the M em b er f or Li mer i c k i ntroduced a great h o l d no terms with assassin s an d - murderers ; that he deal that w as i rre l evant i nto t h e d i scuss i on. Ile would first est a bli s h tranquillity in Ireland. Whence talked of the w an t . o f ass i stance on t h e part o f t h e were the seeds o f th ese cr i mes ? The Right Hon. Government to r e li eve t h e di s t ress an d m i sery o f I re - Baronet had himself i n di cate d them, when he stated land. That was all very right, but the present was that he had bestowed 2,0001. in rewards upon 'men not the time for that question.—(Hear, hear.) Th e who gave evidence against offenders. Money thus question of distre ss h a d no thi ng t o d o w ith th e ques - given would have the effect of suborni ng ev id ence. tion of outrage and crime. A man starving would Let the landlords of Ireland do their duty ; let them come t o ask for bread, but not to take away life.— not suppose that they had , nly the property of their (Hear, hear.) If a man wanted to go to a relief lands, and that there were no duties attached to those c ommittee, he did not go with a pist o l or a blu n d er - lands. A comparison had been made between Irish buss,,, but with a can for his soup. He th o ught that and English landlords, but they could not be corn his Hon. Friend had taken away from himself all pared as a body ; good landlords were the exception ground for opposition to the measure, because he did in Ireland, whilst there was scarcely a bad landlord not support the amendment proposed in the Address, in ,England. In Ireland the tenant was sub on the ground that the Right Hon. Gentlema n , the jetted to the folly, the impertinence, and the insolence Secretary for th e Home D e p ar tment, and th e Right of his landlord; whereas in England, even if the H onourable Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, estate were sold, the tenant's rights were preserved. id eclared v th a t th e peo ple wo u ld b e kept from starv a - That was the reas on w h y coerc i on was no t requ ir e d in England, and was requ i re d i n I re l an d . B u t as I n. lie saw very little coercion in the present - " 111 .---(It eart hea r .) When compared with the long as coercion Bills wer e o bt a i ne d reme di a l mea leasures of 1814, 1822, and 183.5, it seemed to him cures would never be had. All cr i mes i n Ireland t n ' a be a mitigated ands wretched—he would not were perpetuated by the bad system prevailing there, abuse the Bill he was going to support—(Laughter) whilst in England there was no inducement to agree -- but h e was surpr i se d that hi s H on . F r i en d did no t rian crime. His only su r p r i se was t h at Ireland was see the almost invisibility of ca lled an arms Bill for it of the coercion it con- so q uiet, so c alm. Let the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir This could not b tained. George Grey) prefer hi s i n di ctment against Ireland ; , w ould only a ff ec t th o se wh o w ould be lik e l y t o use but they had not heard h ow t h e people of Ireland them for the destruction of human life. He thought were mixed up with financial details. It appeared it right, when ' it murder was committed, that the that the solicitor of the Provi nc i a l B ank of Ireland had put on the file this term no l ess t h an 800 declare- People sh ou ld pursue the guilty P arties. But he tions on behalf of the bank. It w as not, because he w ould go further than the Bill, for he would make the rich thought the Bill too stringent, or that he did not de rmal go out in pursuit as well as the poor sire to arrest the hand of the assassin, that he opposed roan.—(Hear, hear.) If a man had property he ought to defend it, as was done by Lord de Freyne this Bill ; he resisted it as a lawyer, upon principle and Mr. G race, who armed their tenants for that 4 p un . and authority. The Hon. Member then read a lon g Pose- Hi s H on. Fr i end a ll uded to many_ Points extract from the work of Beccaria on crimes a n d which d eserved the serious attention of the (govern- punishments, showing that disproportionate punish ment, es pecially that which related to an amendment, nients tended to make a people hard and insensibl e . th e e the l an dl ord and tenant law. The Noble Lord at After read i ng var i ous passages from M on t esqu i eu on t h e e n head of th e G overnment d ec l are d , on t h e 2d of S p i r it o f L aws , a nd from Blackstone and Bentham, pr, 1846, th at no person cou ld contend that the w i t h a s i m il ar o bj ec t, the Hon. Gentleman quoted an relations io,ns between landlord a nd t en ant in Irela nd opinion of similar import from the work of Lord Wereevilsof the l aw as cou ld b e rense di ed b y leg i slation E nglan d , an d t h en as k e d w h e ther it was possibl e t o ht g to be soremedi e d without delay, for, by so doing, produce stronger proofs than these of the bad effects in be I y wouldirem_ove one of the great causes o f crim e of even straining, much less setting aside, the ordi. Il whicere Oughtd•—(Hear, to be set at rest ; and if the Noble L or d Ireland was likely to be a petitioner at their doors for alms instead of bullets, and just after the people had witnessed the sacrifice of a million of their fel- the Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department low-countrymen by famine, to meet them with a that he (Mr. O'Connor) would oppose this Bill from coereioe Bill. He must say he was not astonished the preamble to the last clause; he was determined to that Ireland should be a beggar at Brit a i n ' s d oo r, an d divide on every possible opportunity ; and, as a rea that that country should be always in a state of dis son for not passing the measure, he begged to call the :ress and disorganization, when he saw such men as attention of English Members to th e position of the the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) come down to Hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford). that House, as he did on the d e b a t e on th e Address, That Hon. G en tl eman, who h ad divided aga i nst t hi s and as he had done now, and turn against his coun- Bill, was one of the largest and best landlords in try, expressing reliance on the good intentions of a Ireland ; he sought for no coercion Bill to secure Government that had ever deceived them.—(Hear.) him against his tenants' wrath; he could walk over If they were near the period of a general election, his estate by night and by day in safety, for which he would that Hon. Gentleman act as he had done ? fairly required his rent—he also performed his duty. lie would ask, if the people were moved to greater If he (Mr. O'Connor) conscientiously believed that vengeance than they had yet shown, on whose head this Bill, or even one o f a more severe c h arac t er , would lie the responsibility o f a ll the turmoils and would have the effect of r e pr ess i ng crime in Ireland, savage outrages that might occur? The responsi- he would readily give it hi s support; but it was he bility would rest on th e originators of the Bill and cause he understood th e c h a r ac t e r, th e condition, and those who supported them, if conciliatory and reme- the constitution of his c o u n trym en better than the dial measures were not also introduced for the relief Right Hon. Home Secr e t ar y, that h e had determined of the people. They had been told that th e I r i s h that this insidious measure should not go to the con a people were very bountifully treated by the English try—at least with the s t amp o f hi s (Mr. eiConnor's) Parliament, but that it would not interfere with Irish approval. He was determined to perform his duty; property. Was not the Tithe Bill an interference but he begged to say, that if the Right Hon. Baronet with the landlord's property ? And when they car- (Sir G. Grey) thought proper to introduce efficient vied free trade, was not that also an int er f erence w ith remedial measures with regard to Ireland, he (Mr. land ? And would they tell him that th e y were O'Connor) would have great pleasure in giving them afraid and were not competent t o i nter f ere with the that support to which he might consider they were raw material, when year after year, they were med. entitled. dling with the produce of that land, an d th us d e . Mr. D. BROWNE should support the second stroying the value of the raw material ?—(Hear.) reading of this Bill, b ecause it did not go too far ; The Irish landlord was a poor, proud f oo l, w h o wou ld because the circumstances of the country required it, not engage in labour or in any course o f i n d us t ry by because it would affect only guilty parties in certain which his circumstances might be i m pr o ved. districts, and afford protection to respectable persons Ireland was saddled with the law of primo- in the midst of a reign of terror. He also supported geniture, and the people almost universally it because he believed it would be administered by looked to the land for support, while they had the Lord-Lieutenant in a spirit of moderation and no manufactures. Hence, they found a poor but humanity. He supported it because he believed that proud aristocracy looking to th e b oun ty o f B r it a i n , the majority of the people of Ireland had no sympathy instead of putting their own shoulders to the wheel, with those crimes. He believed the majority of the and endeavouring by industry or skill to work out people and the priesthood were anxious that these their own salvation.—(Hear, hear.) They mu s t no t murders should be put an end to. He believed that suppose that after sowing the seeds of evil for cen- the murderers were outcasts and traders in blood, tunes in Ireland they would be able to eradicate and were not connected w ith the predial diffe those evils at once, or to remove all the v i ces o f th e rences between landlord and tenant. The murder Irish character in a day. He would tell th em that of the Rev. Mr. Lloyd was a brutal, dastardly, and the vices of the Irish people were the consequence of barbarous murder, and such atrocious murderers were misrule, while their virtues were the characteristics a disgrace to Ireland; and as he wished that the of their nature. They got credit in that House for law should be vindicated he gave his vote for this generosity and for industry and honest exertions measure. It might be said that this was an uncon in any country of the globe but their own ; and stitutional Act; but it was more unconstitutional to why was this ? Because their tyrants, who ruled leave the country at the mercy of a set of lawless them with a rod of iron, would not allow them the marauders. lie would give his vote for this Bill fruits of their own labour. The moment a man without reference to remedial measures, lest it should became industrious in Ireland that moment he de- seem that he had the slightest sympathy with such stroyed his own prospects.—(Hear, hear.) As to crimes. The administration of the law in Ireland the present Bill, he contended that its very mildness was most inefficiently carried on. The Crown pro was a thing to be feared. He knew what large pro- secutors were often incapacitated from performing mises would be made as to the mild condu c t of the their duties by reason of age and infirmity. In Government, and how these promises would be acted Connaught the senior prosecutor had been ten years upon. When weak the Whigs were always courting superannuated as an assistant barrister, and yet he the people, but when strong they ever showed the intole- continued Crown prosecutor. The late Mr. Ellis had ranee of a coercive Government. He remembered been five years superannuated as Crown prosecutor, when, instead of sending to an agricultural country a and yet continued an assistant barrister. In Con- Lord-Lieutenant who would encourage the pursuits naught the Crown solicitor was so incapacitated by of an agricultural people, they sent Lord Normanby, age and infirmity that he had not gone the last five who, sporting his regimentals, and with feathers fly- circuits. Such was the inefficient manner in which ing, traversed the country like another Don Quixotte the law was administered. He felt confident that, in —(Laughter)—proclaiming everywhere a gaol de- trusting the powers contained in this measure to the livery, overriding the ordinary law, and relieving Government, they would not abuse it. from merited punishment the theives and felons who Mr. M. O'CONNELL said he held in his hand a by that law had been imprisoned for their offences.— book, entitled "An Account of the Debate on the (Hear, and laughter.) He remembered when all this Bill for the Protection of Life in Ireland, in 1846," was done to court popularity among the Irish people, edited by R. Dillon Browne, M.P. (The Hon. Gen and now they came down to that H o u se f or a coerc i on tleman then read extracts from the spe ec h es o f M r . Bill, by which they might override th e o rdi na ry l aw Dill on B rowne on th a t debate, i n oppos i tion to that once more.—(Hear, hear.) He condemn e d th e Bill measure , and in which he advised that co e r c i on s h ou ld because it entrusted the law to the hands of an indi- he given up and remedial measures tried.) The Hon. vidual, who, to whatever extent he might go in viola- Member for Meath (Mr. H. Grattan), too, who had tion of the law, would be certain of indemnity from been one cf the most strenuous opponents of the that House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gen- Coercion Bill of 1846, he regretted to find amongst tleman the Home Secretary had read letters descrip- the advocates of the present measure. Disguise it as tive of the state of Ireland; but he knew well how they would, this Bill was as much an infringement of nefariously such letters, and the information conveyed the constitution as that proposed by the Right Hon. in them, were got up by parties interested. He could Baronet, and which the Noble Lord now at the head relate to the House many instances to prove the base of the Government said he would never consent to, means resorted to for the purpose of misrepre- unless it was accompanied by remedial measures. renting and injuring, for interested purposes, the On the same ground put forward by the Noble Lord people of Ireland. In 1833, while professionally in 1846, as against the Arms Bill of the Right Hon. engaged at Clonakilty, he was thrown from his Baronet—the absence of remedial measures—did he horse; and, while suffering under the injuries then (Mr. M. O'Connell) oppose the Bill now before the received, was sent home by a friend in his gig. House. It was all very well to refer to the condi- While so travelling, he fell into conversation with tion of society in Ireland, and point to the calendar the servant who accompanied him; and this person of crime as a justification for such a Bill; but how told him, that at the time Whiteboyism was at its did they expect human nature to endure patiently height he was living with a captain in the army; the tyranny to which the Irish tenantry were sub that a major belonging to the same regiment was on ject, driven from their holdings, without food or a visit to his master ; and that they, accomp a ni e d by shelter, prevented froth reaping the crops they had two or three other persons, went out at night with sown, and deprived of all the advantages of their their faces blackened, and swore in the people in outlay and labour ? Try the experiment in England, their neighbourhood to he Whiteboys, in order that and see what would be the consequence.—(Hear, they (the officers) might thereby get employment, hear.) He gathered from the reply of the Right He (Mr. O'Connor) communicated this information Hon. the Home Secretary to the suggestion of the to Lord Ilatherton (then Mr. Littelton, and Chief Right Hon. Baronet (Sir It. Peel), that a detective Secretary for Ireland), and offered to bring forward police was about to be organized in Ireland. What the man as evidence, provided measures were taken was this but a return to the old spy system, with all for his protection, and the means given him of going its attendant horrors, its perjuries, robberies, and to a foreign country, if necessary; but he would not murders ? How many instances were there in former interfere in the case, because the parties concerned days of innocent men being entrapped into the coin were gentlemen. After narrating one or two mission of crime, and then informed against for 'he cases, to show that threatening letters were sake of the blood-money? In no country save Ire got up by the police and others in order land would such a system be tolerated. It had been that they might find employment, the Ho- practised in 1798 under the notorious Major Sirr, tioural)le Gentleman proceeded to condemn the lan- aided by the infamous Terry O'Brien, and yet in guage tha• had been used towards the Roman Catholic these days it was sought to legalise perjury by Act or priests. To calumniate those priests was the greatest Parliament. Notwithstanding the determination ex injury they could inflict upon the people of Ireland, pressed by some Irish Members to support this Bill, because they were closely c onnec t e d b y bl ood, pur. he for one should give it the most determined oppesi• alwayssuits, an r d ea r d e y lig to io a n i , d w a i n th d t c h o e ns p o o le or th p e e m asa in nt a ra n , ) , , A s i i i t d ua w ti e ,rme e ti a o r n ne i s n t every a s s ta a g ni e x o o f us its a p s ro a g n r 3 e r ss m . in which they could be placed. He would t e ll th em cr i me , and he ha not a not only preached but practised that if they hoped to destroy the religion of the pe o pl e o b e di ence to the w H h a e had endeavoured to of Ireland, or the influence which the priests enjoyed, en f orce a max i m laid an He in hd a e d no b u e n e e n if a lg s d down by one whose memory no attempt could possibly be more hopeless.—(Hear, he must ever revere and venerate, that the worst hear.) In 1 8 2 2 the Right Hon. Member for Mont- enemy of Ireland was the man who violated gomeryshire (Sir C. W. Wynn), who was then Pre- the law. He would not parley with the murderer, sident of the Board of Control, paid a just tribute to but he would strain the ordinary law of the land, in the character of the Irish people. That Right Hon. order to secure his punishment ; but he protested Gentleman said that, when he reflected on their many against arming irresponsible parties with extraordi admirable qualities, on their genius a nd i n t e lli gence , nary powers to do that which might be done by the on their steady devotion to any cause which they smallest particle of resolution and courage on the heartily espoused, on their patience under privation . part of th e res i dent landlords in the counties which and suffering, and on their generous hospitality, he were said to be disturbed, and which would be put could not but condemn that policy by which all these down by the tenantry if the landlords gave them the excellent qualities had been p e rverted, an d a ll th ese slightest encouragement so to do. But he found gifts of nature and of Providence had b e en ren dered fault with this Bill on another ground, namely, that the fruitful source of crime and bl oo d s hed. B u t, no t- it was entirely and exclusevely a landlord's Bill.— withstanding that opinion, Parliament p asse d a coer- (Hear.) It was not a Bill for the protection of the cion Bill for Ireland, and suspended the Habeas lives and property of th e p eo pl e , b u t for the protec- Corpus Act in that country. In passing any men - tion of magistrates, who would not do their duty, sures for ameliorating the condition of Ireland, it was and to enable the landlords to collect their rents. necessary to enforce the rights of the p eo pl e , or th e He had expected after the numerous commissions of landlords would take care to derive all th e b ene fit, inquiry which had been issued by various Govern- When the Legislature gave the landlords of Ir e la n d ments, that at the commencement of this session the 25 per cent. of the church prope rt y , did the tenants p resent Ministry would at least be prepared with gain anything ? No ; the la ndlords p ocketed the some reme dial measures f or I re l a nd. He understood whole, and the wages of labour , instead of bein g that the L andlord and T enan t Bill was actually in raised, were reduced. Of the am ount which had p rint, and, being of the Irish table of the Ho use. kept back, people, been recently granted for the reli ef It was, however, and not a wo rd advanced had yet been s • so, it ought now to be on the in patronage, while only 30,00 01 . had been stated to the House. In fact, to landlords for the improvement of their estates. nothing__ whate ver had been done to carry out any And why was this ? Because so many technical i t n. of the recommendations contained in the report under pediments were thrown in the way of granting such Lord Devo n's Commission. —(Cries of " Divide.") advances.—(Bear, hear.) He (Mr. O'Connor) was One of those recommend a ti ons was satisfied that they could not improve the condition of burdens on the land, an d ye t, by the to lessen the he operations of the labourers and farmers of Ireland without improv- this B ill thos e burdens would b e increased by fixing ing the condition of the landlords ; and how was this on the land the charg e of the extra police employed to be done ? Not by giving the landlords money, but at the will and pleasure of the Lord• Lieutenant. by inducing them to make their estates worth money. Hon. Memb er s opposite had s p o ken of certain state- He was ready to maintain, in spite of agriculturists, ments alleged to have been ma d e by Roman Catholic and of free-traders, and of political economists, that clergymen from the altar, but the Attorney-General there was not an acre of land in England or in Ire- told them tnat wherever such land which was let at half its v a lue; and that if a charges could be authentic a t e d prosecut i on wou ld had very properly better system of agriculture were established, the follow. 'With respect to the denunciation of Major value of the land would be very materially increased. Mahon, the clergyman implicated had himself denied The landlords of Ireland had managed their property in print that he had ever mentioned that gentleman's according to the science of politics, instead of by the name or that he knew anything a b out hi m. Wh a t science of ag ri cu lt ure; an d th e i r grea t o bj ec t h a d would the House think of an Engli s h l an dl or d, w h o , been to obtain bishoprics or commissions in the army coming into a property, should commence w i th a for their so ns , and goo d matc h es f or t h e i r d aug h ters, sma ll village at his park gate, and take from the in instead of endeavouring to improve their estates. In habitants their little gardens, f rom which they had the good old ti mes o f the Hutchinsons and B e re s f o rd s , obtained their winter's subsisten ce ? The Honourable boys were d own i n t h e army l i st for promotion from Member proceeded to detail other instances of Major the time of their birth ; and when he (Mr. O'Connor) Mahon's conduct towards his tenants, but was con was eleven years old, there were two lieutenants in tinually interrupted by loud cries of " Question." his class at school.--(A laugh.) At that time the He complained that the deceased gentleman had sent Beresfords got everything, and when Lord Cathcart a number of his tenants on board ship, bound to visited the family, as he had seen a great many Be- America, but the vessel being wrecked, the people resfords in the army list, he requested to be intro- were obliged to return, when, sick, starving, and duced to the young heroes ; and, a f ter dinner, these shipwrecked as they were , t h ey were left o n th e roa d instructions were given,—" When th e li eutenant w i thout s h e lt er t o perish. Until th e N oble Lord at wakes let him come into the r oom; wh en th e capta i n t h e head o f th e G o vernment had l a id his remedial wakes bring him down ; and whe n th e co l one l wakes measures on t h e t a bl e , the House might expect that put him on his regimentals, and bring him here."— he (Mr. O'Connell) would give this Coercion Bill (A laugh.) He (Mr. O'Connor) must say he was every opposition in his power. glad that the Honourable and Learned Member for Mr. GARDNER gave a reluctant support to the Limerick (Mr. J. O'Connell) had seen the prudence Bill. He was not one of those who would vindicate and propriety of opposing the measure now before murder, or who did not wish to see it punished, hut the House ; and he hoped the Hon. Gentlemen who he could not help having some compunctious visitings usually acted with him (Mr. O'Connell) would adopt when he remembered the gross ill-usage which Ire a similar course. He (Mr. O'Connor) had suffered land had experienced at the hands of this country.— much persecution, but he was willing to forgive the (Hear, hear.) He regretted, therefore, that the Right Government for their share in it if they were pre- lion. Gentleman while proposing coercion had not pared to redeem their pledges with regard to Ireland. more clearly indicated the remedial measures he The fact was, that the present was a Government of proposed to introduce for the benefit of the sister toleration ' • and the best way to prom o t e th e we lf are country . H e was not one of those who th oug h t t h at of Ireland would be by a combined action of the Providence had endowed one race more than another Irish Members and landlords, irrespective of politics, with instincts of crime and indolence. He was will of class es , and of religious creeds. If those Gentle- ing to admit the defects of the Irish character, but he men b o ldly s t oo d ou t f or th e r i g ht s o f property (not was i nc li ne d t o a ttribute them, not to the pr ov id ence o f only f or th e r i g ht s o f th e l an dl or d s, b ut also for the God, but to t h e m i sg overnment and tyranny of man.— rights of the labourers), th e y wou ld b e too strong (H ear, h ear .) That country had for 600 y ears b een for th e G overnment. He regretted that the Right under the dominion of what an emin ent foreign Hon. Memb er f or Tamworth was not in his place to- publicist had called a bad aristocracy. P ure night ; for, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had been blood, no mill-owners or manufacturers, to grind present, he (Mr. O'Connor) would have been glad to the people, nothing but lords, squires, and serfs. have given him some information on the subject of To these England had added an alien priesthood tenant-right; but, as that question was to be brought and in her superstition bad shut out every avenue before the House by the lion. Member for Rochdale, of advancement from t he g r eat bod y of the p eo p le. he (Mr. O'Connor) wou ld abstain from commenting The outward and visi ble sign of all this oppression— upon it at present. Lie begged, in conclusion, to assure the Protestant Established Chur ch--still existed in Till 4 SON, LONDON, TUESDAY _EVEN IN G, DECEMBER 7, 1847. full vigour.—(Hear.) He did not think its abolition would remedy the ills of Ireland, but it was at least due to that country as reparation. Probably no single measure would have the effect of redressing all the evils of that country; but we ought to undo all our bad legislation, step by step. So long as a splen did public property, amounting to a million per annum, existed in Ireland, devoted to the support of a church alien to the sentiments of nine-ternths of the people, private property ought not to be burdened with rates for the support of the indigent. He would never consent to any measure of coercion for Ireland, unless remedial measures were brought forward at the same time.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. KEATING said that the Irish Catholic priesthood, so far from exciting the people to outrage, exerted a directly opposite influence. In proof of this he referred to the conduct and addresses of the curate in the parish where Mr. Roe had been mur dered. He was opposed to this Bill, because it would not tend to tranquillise the country : it would be a complete failure.—(Hear.) Such a measure never could succeed. It had in it no element of success. Mr. FAGAN moved the adjournment of the debate. Sir G. GREY hoped this motion would not be pressed. There would be abundant opportunity, in the future stages of the Bill, for Hon. Members to express their views. Great inconvenience had re sulted from discussing the principle and details of the Bill upon a mere motion of form for passing to the other orders of the day. Mr. FAGAN thought it was not fair to urge him to proceed in addressing the House at so late an hour. He had no wish to be supposed facetious in taking this course. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the adjournment . lB Against it Majority —27l Sir G. GREY said he hoped the order of the day would be allowed to be read, upon the understanding that the second reading of the Bill should be taken on another night. _ _ Mr. F. O'CONNOR then moved the adjournment of the House, and Mr. M. O'C ONNELL having seconded the motion, the gallery was cleared for a division ; but on our re-admission we found that the proposition of Sir G. Grey had been agreed to. The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons. MONDAY, DEC. 6. CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND) BILL. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of the Bill' for the better Prevention of Crime and Outrage in certain parts of Ireland," be now read :"—Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words " That the" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words " other Order of the Dili be now read," in stead thereof :—Questio❑ proposed, " That the words pro posed to be left out stand part of the Question :—Debate arising, Motion made, and Question put, " That the Debate be now adjourned." The House divided MINORITY—AYES, 18. Anstey, Thomas C. O'Brien, Timothy Reynolds,7.Tonh , . Callaghan, D. O'Connell, John laChe, E. B. Devereux, J. F. O'Connell, M. J. Seholetleld, William. Greene, Captain O'Connor, Fearrns Scully, Francis Keating, Robert O'Flaherty, Anthony TXLLEIII. Meagher, Thomas Power, Dr. Fagan, William Morgan, H. K. G. Power, Nicholas O'Connell, 31aurIc• Acton, Colonel Adair, Hugh E. Adair, R. Shaft° Aglionby, H. A. Anderson, Arthur Anson, Colonel Arkwright, (4. MAJOR 1 TY—NOES, 289. Ffolliett, J. Mowatt, Francis Fitzpatrick, J W. Neeld, Joseph Fitzwilllam, G. W Newdegatc, C. N. Foley, John IL Newport, Viscount Forbes, W. Noel, Gerald J. Fordyce, A. D. Nugent, Sir Percy Forster, Mathew O'Brien, Sir Lucius Forteacue, Chichester Ossulston, Lord Forteseue, J. W. Paget, Lord A. Fox, Richard M. Paget, Lord Clarence Freestun, Colonel Palmer, Robert Gardner, J. D. Palmer, Roundell Gibson, T. M. Parker, John Glyn, George Carr Patten, J. W. Godson, R. Pearson, Charles Goulburn, Henry Peel, Colonel Gower, Levesou Perfect, Robert Grace, 0. D. J. Pigott, Francis Graham. Sir James Pilkington,lJainea Grattan, Henry Finney, W. Greene Thomas Plumptre, J. I'. Gregson, Samuel Plewden, W. 11. Grenfel , Charles W. Raphael, Alexander Grey, Sir G. Rawdon, Colonel Grey, Ralph W. Renton, John C. Grogan, E. Repton, G. W. J. Guinness, R. S. Ricardo, J. L. Gwyn, Ilowel Ricardo, Osman Haggitt, F. R. Rich,lHenry Hale, R. B. Romilly, John Raiford, Sir H. Russell, F. C. 11. Hall, Sir:B. Sadleir, John Halsey, T. I'. St. George, Chris. Hamilton, G. A. Salwey, Colonel Hamilton, J. H. Sandal's, George Hardcastle, J. A. Scrope, G. P. thistle, Alexander Seakam, Viscount Ilastie, Archibald Seymour, Lord Hayes, Sir E. Shell, R. L. Ilayter, W. G. Sibthorp, Colonel Ileadlam, T. E. Simeon, John Heald, James Slaney, Robert A. Henley, J. W. Smith, V. Herbert, Henry A. Smith, M. Tucker Hervey, Lord A. Smith, John B. Heywood, James Smyth, John G. Hodges, T. Twisden Sutythe, G. II odgson, W. N. Somerton,, Viscount Hood, sir A. Somerville, Sir W. Hope, Sir J. Stafford, Augustus Hepe, Henry T. Stanley, E, J. llotham, Lord Stanley, Edward Howard, C W.G. Staunton, Sir G. Howard, E. G. Sinai, Edward Inglis. Sir R. 11. Stuart, Lord 1). Jerinyn, Earl Stuart, Lcrd J. Jervis, Sir John Sturt, Henry G. Jervis, John Sutton, Henry Jones, Sir W. Talfourd, , crgeant Keogh, William Taylor, Thomas E. Keppel, George T. Teuison, E. K. Ker, Richard Tennent, ..T. King, Peter John Thicknesse, R. A. Labouchere, Henry Thompson, Colonel Lascelles, E. Thornely, T. Law, C. E. Tollernache, John Lemon, Sir Charles Towiteley, John Lennox, Lor, , a. Townley, R. G. Lennox, Lord 11. G. Trelawny, J. S. Lewis, Sir T. Turner, George Lewis, George C. Vane, Lord H. Lincoln, Earl of Verner, Sir W. Lindsay, Colonel Verney Sir 11. Littleton, E. R. Villiers, Charles Lockhart, W. Vivian, J. 11. Macnamara, Major Vyse, R. 11. R. 11. M'Gregor, John Walmsley, Sir J. hl`Naghten, Sir E. Walter, John Mahon, O'Gorman Ward, H. G. hfaitland, T. Watkins, Colonel Mangles, R.',D. Wawn, J T. Marshall, J. G. West, F. R. Martin, Samuel Westhead, J. P. Matheson, Alex. Wilcox, Brodie Matheson, Colonel Williams, John hiaule, Fox Willoughby, Sir H. Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wilson, Matthew 3felgund, Viscount . Wodehouse, E. Meux, Sir Henry Wood, Sir Charles Miles, P. W. S. Wood, W. P. Mitchell, T. A. Wyld, James Moffatt, George Wyvill, Marmaduke Molesworth, Sir W. Yorke, 11. R. hlonsell, William Young, John Moore, George 11. TELLEItig, Morpeth, Viscount Morison, General Bagshaw, John Baines, M. T. Baldock, E. H. Baring, F. T. Baring, Thomas Barnard, E. G. Bateson, Thomas Bellew, R. M. Bennet, I'. Beresford, William Berkeley, Captain Berkeley, Grantley Bernal, Ralph . - - Bernard, Viscount Birch, Sir Thomas Blackall, S. W. Blake, M. J. Boiling, William Bourke, Richard S. Bouverie, E. P. Bowles, Admiral Bowring, Dr. Boyd,:John Bremridge, Richard Bright, John Brisco, M. Broadley, 11. Mroactwood, H. Brockman, E. D. Brooke, Lord Itrotherton, Joseph 11rowne, W. Browne, R. D. Bruce, Lord E. L'uller, Charles Sunbury, W. Bunbury, Edward Burke, :nir Thomas nurroughes, 11. N. 11usfeild, W. Campbell, w. F. ‘'artlwell, Edward Carew, W. I'. Carter, John E. Castlereagh, N'isc. Caulfield, Colonel Cavendish, C. C. Cayley, Edward R. Chichester, Lord J. Clay, James Clay, Sir W. ClementF, Charles Clerk Sir G. Cliflord, Henry M. Clive, Viec. Cobden, It. Cockburn, Alex. Cocks, Thomas S. Cole, H. A. Colebrook., Sir T. Coles, Henry B. Cowper, W. F. Craig, W. G. Darner, Colonel Davie,:Sir Henry Davies, D. A. S. Dawson ' T. V. Deodes, W. Deering, John I', Denison, J. H. Dodd, G. Drummond, H. Duckworth, Sir J. Duff, George S. Duff, James Duke, Sir James Duncan, George Dundas, 'Admiral Dundas, Sir Dayid Dundas, George_ Dunne, Francis P. Pre, C (1 Ebrington, Viscount Elliot, John T. Enfield, Lord Evans, John , Fvans William Ewart, William Ferrer, James Ferguson, Sir R. Hill, Lord AL. Tuftiell, Henry DREADFUL GALES AND LOSS OF LIFE. DOVER, MONDAY NOON.—For the last forty-eight hours we have experienced a most terrific gale. It has not been equalled off this part of the coast for several years, and the wrecks and loss of life it has occasioned off Deal, Dungeness, and other places southward of this port, have been truly dreadful. Amongst the most deplorable was one that occurred on the Goodwin Sands. At daybreak yesterday (Sunday) morning the people on the look-out reported a vessel ashore on the " Goodwin," but her condition they were unable to dis cern owing to the violence of the weather and the groat sea on. Several luggers managed to put off, and upon nearing the spot a melancholy wreck presented itself. The vessel, evidently timber laden, was partly buried in the sands, with her foremast standing, and to get at her was perfectly impossible. A formidable sea was beating over her with awful violence, and tearing the vessel to pieces. The boats endeavoured to obtain her name and port, but failed. Before the boats left her destruction was complete; all had been swallowed up; not a vestige re mained. Her crew, it is feared, all perished. By ap pearance the ill-fated vessel was a foreigner. There were between twenty and thirty vessels in the roads during the gale; some fortunately kept a safe anchor. age; others lost both anchors, and escaped injury by running out to sea. Another fatal wreck, we regret to say, took place in the course of Saturday night, in Pevensey Bay, near Hastings. The unfortunate ship was the Addolorata, of and from Naples, which had sailed from the Thames on the Thursday previous with a miscellaneous cargo. In the height of the gale she became unmanageable, and drove ashore. Nine of the crew perished, and three men and a boy came ashore on a raft and were saved. The vessel and cargo are completely lost, and the former almost Shoreham s w a a id s t o severely have felt.has gone A t t o pieces. o n p e i p e e s r . io d Aft raged with the violence of a hurricane, and serious apprehensions were entertained for the safety of th e shipping in the distr ict. To the northward of the N om several losses are reported. About seven o'clock on Sunday morning the master of the Diligence, belonging to Brightensea, near Wivenhoe, described two vessels to have foundered in the Swin, about half a mile from each other, on the south side of the Gunfleet, midway between the beacon and the south-west buoy; one to all appear. ance was a large, and the other a three masted vessel. Farther northward on the Gunfleet were wrecked two other yew Is—namely, the Albion, from Sunderland, and the Bridgeholm ; both crews were saved. The above is but a very brief statement of the casualties that have been communicated to us. A heavy gale is still blowing from the S S.W. STEEPLE-CHASE AT KELSO.—A steeple-chase came off on Saturday last over the farms of Bartlehill and Eccles Newtown (two miles of fair hunting country). The ground was marked out by Messrs. John Dove and T. Penny. The following gentlemen entered and started:—Mr. Verschoyle's ch m Gypsy, Mr. Smedley's b in Bradfield, Mr. Bradford's b g Mud Student, Mr. Midgley's br g Jack Sheppard, Mr. Ileweitt's b m Georgina, Mr. Daniel's br g Callender. At starting Mr. Verschoyle went off with a strong lead, which he kept up to the artificial timber in front of Mr. Dove's house, when he and Mr. Daniel, who kept close up to him, and Mr.gleweitt's mare, ridden by Mr. Robert Brodie took it beautifully, and led over the next two fences, after which he was challenged by Mr. Mid g l e y, w h o passed, and came in an easy winner. Mr. Verschoyle came in second; the others nowhere. Arrangements are being made for another steeple•chase on a larger scale, to take place in the month of February next. NAVAL INTELLIGENCE. PLYMOUTH, DEC. 4.—Arrived the merchant brig Po mona, of Sunderland, Captain Smith, from Alexandria, with beans, for Messrs. Fox, Sons, and Co., here. She experienced a severe hurricane in lat. 47 N., lon. 9 W., on Saturday, the 27th ult., at eight P.M., when the vessel was struck by a tremendous sea, which carried away the greater portion of her bulwarks and rails, mainboom and gaff, with trysail stowed, steering sails, boats, spars, water casks, round-house, &c., threw her on her beam ends, sprung the mainmast head, and caused her to leak, broke the steering wheel to pieces, and un fortunately washed overboard the helmsman, John Manuel Collis, a native of Evrington, Devonshire, but last from Prince Edward's Island. Also, the brig Sep tima, of Sunderland, Captain Barrass, from Alexandria, for orders. When lying near the Pomona in the same gale she was struck by a heavy sea, which took away her bulwarks and boats, and swept her decks. The merchant brig Bagshaw, of Sunderland, Captain Hobbs, from Odessa, with linseed, for orders, came in to-day. On Sunday, the 28th ult., she experienced a very heavy gale, which damaged her bulwarks, broke her wheel, and washed overboard the helmsman, David Luce, a native of Cornwall. PORTSMOUTH, DEC. s.—The following are the ap pointments of the past week:— Captains—W. B. Mends, to the Caledonia, vice Manley Hall Dixon, whose term of service has expired; Brunswick Popham, to the Inconstant. Commander—Grey Skipworth, to the Hydra. Lieutenants—W. R. G. Palliser, to the Gladiat , r; F. H. Lambert, to the Hibernia; N. G. Spencer, to the President ; F. A. B. Crawford, T. M. Jackson, arid F. H. Stevens, to the Inconstant; J. M. Boxer, to the Vindictive; J. Carter, to the Poictiers; J. Davis to the Coast Guard. , Masters—Robert C. Allen, a most scientific officer removed from the Terrible steam-frigate to the Fisgard at Woolwich, as an assistant to Captain Austen in the inspection of the steam machinery department of the navy; J. Stokes, to the Volage; J. S. Pritchard, to the Coast Guard; R. 0. Stuart (acting), to the Inconstant. Surgeon—H. Jameson, to the Victory. Paymasters and Pursers—K. L. Sutherland, to the Inconstant; C. D. Gourd, to the Fisgard. Second Masters—H. Martin, to the Plover; W. G. Sturgess, to the Bouetta; J. G. Dathan, to the Firefly. Naval Instructor—E. B. Barnes, to the Meander. Assistant-Surgeons—W. E. Hambly, to the Vindic live ; J. Lugton, to the Firefly; K. F. Williams, to the Blenheim; W. M. Saunders, J. C. Inglis, W. Patrick, and Dr. M`Ewen, to the Victory. Clerks—W. IL Thompson, to the Cygnet; G. A. Hansard, to the Acheron; D. F. Little, in charge, to the Plover; J. M. Jefferson, in charge, to the Firefly; A. Arlington, in charge, to the Bonetta; C. C. Cart wright, to the Blenheim; A. Thompson, to the Vernon; W. Crealock, to the Meander; W. W. Evans, to the Howe; R. T. Baynes, to the Inconstant. Midshipmen—W. F. Turton, to the Hibernia; S. B. Leggett, to the Bonetta; F. Hardy, to the Cygnet; C. Blake, to the Vanguard; W. F. Buxton, to the Queen; Hon. F. D. Stuart Wortley, to the Eurydice; C. C. Gascoyne, to the Brilliant; J. D. Murray and Mr. J. Parks, to the Excellent; T. Thompson, to the Terrible; G. F. Paget, to the Acheron; R. B. Foster, to the Inconstant. Naval Cadets—J. Irvine, to the St. Vincent ; Hon. G. Egerton, to the Vernon; Charles E. Noyes and W. T. F. W. Mudge, to the Inconstant ; H. J. Marshall, to the Queen; F. R. Doughty, to the Rodney; A. C. Adams, to the Trafalgar. Masters' Assistants—C. F. Cooper, to the Penelope ; C. C. Scott, to the Victory; G. Polglaze, to the Bonetta; C. Downward and A. Wilde, to the Firefly; A. J. Dewar, to the San Josef. Mr. Henry Robertson, of the firm of Shaw, Maxwell, and Co., of London and Manchester, is appoinied freight agent to Rear-Admiral Phipps Hornby, C. 8., the new Commander-in-Chief in the Pacific. The mercantile community will therefore know where to apply for infor mation respecting their remittances in specie from the above quarter. FLANDERS MAIL. HAMM:mon, Nov. 30.—Unusually little business vas transacted to-day. Exchange upon London fell one-half per cent. The state of the money market continues unchanged, although the money market has on the whole been better supplied this week, yet exchange was not so good. The tighter exchanges on London did not encourage to greater transactions. The suspension of payment of several houses in England, France, and Hol land, and of °nein Prague, cannot fail to be of unfavourable influence, though they may not affect indirectly except perhaps in the case of the latter house, in which some of our merchants are involved to the amount of about 120,000 to 130,000 marks bunco; it is generally supposed that this house will compromise with its creditors. Our market presents a very inactive appearance; some salesrgai•e made, but there is no activity and a general appearance of disinclination to business. This is un usual at this season, and it can be attributed only to the state of things abroad, especially in Eng land. 'The latest status of the Bank of England, how ever, presented an improved appearance ; large sums in gold have arrived and others are expected, yet thoughtful men do not speak of the crisis by any means as if it were already past ; indeed, we should rather imply that th e y are i n t h at critical state which w ill require the inter vention of Parliament. It appears to us here, that an internal reaction can only take place with the reflux of the value of the capital which has been so lavishly sent over the whole earth; for, notwithstanding the great opi nion we have of the immense wealth of Great Britain, it is an indubitable fact tout it was ins !equate to the ex • travagant trade and the immense technical undertakinL,s, and this return of the value of :he capital will take place but slowly. The following are the liabilities of some of the houses alluded to.—Lackerstein and Co., London, E. 1. mer chants, 100,0001.; J. and 11. ap, London, wine mer chants, 20,0001.; Union Bank, Madrid, amount unknown; liiewit and Laigeveld, Rotterdam, rice dealt rs, amount unknown; A. lioutlaer end Zoon, Rotterdam, general merchants, amount unknown; F. Richter, Prague, cotton spinners, 500,00011.; Bonaffe and Co., Havre, American merchants, 2,000,0001 r.; J. J. Gunnaraens de Silva, Rio Janeiro, coffee merchants, 103 contos de rios. BELGIUM, DEC. 4.—The two commercial failures which have taken place at Mona exercise a melancholy influence in the department of Charleroi—the anxiety which is felt at Mons by the failure of M. Ilennekii.ne is felt also by our merchants, and we can no longer con. teal from ourselves or others that painful things are likely to ensue, though, as usual, they are now exagge rated. Two houses have already stopped payment. The project has been submitted to the Bank of Belgium to till up the blanks, which the withdrawal of the house of flennekinne will occasion here. This measure is highly approved of by our merchants and traders. ANTWERP, Nov. 4.—The state of trade is not pre cisely similar to what it was last week ; that great stag nation has disappeared, though we cannot say there is any great activity. BRUSSELS, DEC. 4.—THE CLIAMBERS.—II is affirlDel that a petition has been sent into the Chambers, de manding the expulsion of the Jesuits; it is signed by Gressin Dumontin, the editor of the J'recurseur. The presentation of the petition has, it is said, been adjourned for the present. A retort is in circulation in the political saloons of Brussels, that M. Veydt, whose health is delicate, is about to renounce his post, which will be taken by M. Frire-Orban, who will cede his over to M. Ruussel, re presentative of Mons. M. Veydt will have the govern ment of East Flanders. RETIREMENT OF THE BAVARIAN MINISTRY.—The Gazette de Cologne announces that the Bavarian Ministry is about to retire; this Cabinet we must remember is of recent date that it consented to replace a Ministry, which thought itself obliged to oppose the requirements of the favourite. Prince Attengen Wallerstein and M. Bercks, councillor of state, are charged with con*ti tuting a liberal administration. The Chambers of Baden aro to be convoked for the 7th. Opposition is in progress in the kingdom of Hanover. In the country the elections are hostile to the Govern ment, to which they have hitherto been favourable. A letter from Trieste states that, during a fearful tempest along the coast of Greece, twenty-two merchant vessels have made shipwreck. Nothin 7 is raid of the .—Brussers Papers, Dec. 5. fate of the passengers or crew AUSTRIAN FUNDS.—VIENNA, Nev. 27. 5 per Cent. Meta11ique5.......... • • •• • • • • 105% 4 per Cent.ditt0............ „ ......... 93 3 per Cent. ditt0..........., „ .......... 66 Loan, 1834 „ „ ................ 157 Ditto, 1839 1 2 2° 3 14 Bank Shares 1 Esterhazy's Loan .......• „ ............ 62 RAILWAYS. The Northern, of Ferdinand •• .• • 157% Gloggnits ........... •• 112 Vienna—Milan .. ..................... 9s Leghorn 8234 Sienna Grosetto • • • Oldenburg .......... Pestoj a Pesth Bridge ....... • Apenntneu .......... ••• • • • • •• •• •• 6 PRUSSIAN FUNDS.—Baimix, Dac. 2. Bills. Money. 6t.Schuld Sch., 2% per Cent .. 92 rs% Priem English Bonds, 1830, 4 per Cent.• • • Foreign Exchanges.— ••••• • •• ' • • 627 Eachaige on London, £1 Sterling, 3 Mont hs , BELGIAN FUNDS.-135resxu, Dac. 4. Five per Cent •.•• • • • • 3Al=ligiecAt,,,,tlinrer Cent ...... •••• •• • • Loan of Thirty Millions, Four perCen • • • • Ditto Three per Cent • • • • • • • • • • • • •" • " D D i i t t t t o o , T di h t i t rt o Ditto,dato, .. •• • • 98% ,yl-Bseven.2d. .1 . 11 . 1 . 0 . n . 5 : ditto •. • 92 Ditto, lB3B .••••••••• • • • • • • • • • " •• • • 6 7 Ditto of the City, 1832 .•••• • • • • • , Ditto, 1843 Bank of Belgium ••.• • • -•• • • ...• •••• • • • • 91!4 -Brussels Papers. Dec. 4. • 94jy CHLOROFORM, TUE ANXSTHETIC AGENT. —On Thursday last, the 2d instant, Richard Holgate, of High Easter, carpenter, aged nineteen years, was operated on for extensive disease of the h an d. P erfect insensibility to external impressions or painlessness was pr o d uce d i n about three minutes; the vapourisation of the chloroform was assisted by heat. A considerable portion of the hand was then removed, the operation being skilfully performed by Mr. Parett, surgeon, of High Easter, in the presence of Mr. Coventry, surgeon, of Hatfield Broad Oak. When the operation had been completed the patient said, " he had made up his mind, and the surgeon might commence." The case presented a striking con trast to the violent excitement and unfavourable reaction produced by ether, and the expressions of pain, strug gles, &c., of or di nary surg i ca l operations. The use of chloroform, as a pain-destroying agent, is to the a example ot the application of modern chemistry exampledisease.— alleviation of su ff er i ng an d re l ie f of the Ipswich Express. COURT CIRCULAR. The Chevalier Bunsen, Prussian Minister, Viscount Palmerston, and the Hon. and Rev. C. Leslie Courte nay, left O s b orne yester d ay morning. The Q ueen an d Prince Albert walked early yester day in the pleasure grounds and plantations of Osborne. Their Royal Highnesses the Prince of Wale 3 and the Princess Royal took airings yesterday in the vicinity of Osborne. Sir James Clark has left Osborne for town. Lord John Russell was slightly indisposed yester day at his residence in Cheshatn-place. His Excellency the Prussian Minister returned to his residence on Carlton House -terrace yesterday, from her Majesty's marine residence, Osborne, Isle of Wight. Yesterday the several Commissions of the several Sewers Districts in the metropolis, were opened and real, and the Commissioners sworn for each. The Commissioners present and sworn were—Lord Morpeth (in the chair), Lord Ashley, Lord Ebring ton, Robert Aglionby Slaney, Esq., Joseph Hume, Esq., Dr. W. Buckland (Dean of IVestininster), Hon. Fred. Byng, Sir James Clark, Sir 11. de la Beche, Edwin Chadwick, Esq., JAn Leslie, Esq., Professor Richard Owen, William John Broderip, Esq., Dr. Neill Arnott, Dr. Southwood Smith, Richard Lambert Jones, Esq , John Bul ar, Esq., Rev. Wm. Stone, and John Bidwell, Esq. The Court of Sewers were formally opened, and provisional arrangements as to officers made for each district. Lewis C. Hertslet, Esq., was appointed Clerk of Minutes, Orders, and C orres p on d ence ; W. 11. Stabl e , E sq . Clerk of Collections and Accounts; Messrs. Roe and Phillips, Surveyors for each of the districts ; and Henry Austin, Esq., Consulting Surveyor, also for the several districts. The clerks of the several districts, and other salaried officers, were provisionally reappointed under the several Courts, and orders made, and an adjournment was ordered to Thursday, the 16th. A deputation from Bristol, consisting of the Mayor of Bristol ; the Hon. 11. Berkeley, M.P., Mr. Philip Miles, M.P.; Messrs. Richard P. King, James Gibbs, George Thomas, W. Goldney, W. Tothill, Francis Jarman, John George Shaw, Harman King, and the Town Clerk of Bristol, had an interview with the Right Hon. T. Milner Gibson yesterday, at the office of the Board of Trade. The Earl of Devon had an interview with the Chancellor •f the Exchequer yesterday, at his official residence in Downing -street. The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council sat yesterday. Sir Frederick Thesiger and Mr. Crow ther (Queen's Counsel) were heard on an appeal from Canada " Logan v. Le AleAurier." The Lords present were—the Master of the Rolls, Lord Brougham, Lord Campbell, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Cornwall, and the Judge of the Admiralty Court. AN IRISH M.P. LAUGHED AT IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SlR,—What very strange mistakes sometimes occur from misunderstanding the terms or words used by one party to convey sentiments or o pi n i ons to anot h er party. This was exemplified during the Currency debate in the House of Commons on Thursday night last. Mr. J. Reynolds, M.P. for Dublin, while addressing the House, remarked, "It must be borne in mind that banking profits arose in a great degree from trading on one's credit in contradistinction to one's capital." Upon which your report states " great laughter" ensued. And even Sir Robert Peel mistook the application of the term " credit," as applied to a banker, or he would not have said to the Hon. Member, " He would rather have his capital than his credit." It would appear that the House of Commons understood the Hon. Member as de scribing an Irish banker to be a trader without money— s " licensed dealer in money without money"—as simply existing upon credit, viz., no capital whatever. Mr. J. Reynolds, addressing the House as a banker, could he have expressed himself in clearer or more con • cise terms than be did, ir, drawing the distinction be tween a banker's credit and a banker's capital? In what does a banke r's credit consist? The capital of his customers—the deposits left in a banker's hands these are the banker's credit. The deposits themselves are capital—the capital of the customers—but the credit of the banker who uses them. Thus, if the chief profit of banking arises from the use the banker makes of the deposits left in his hands, of course the profit arises from his credit—viz., the money lent by his customers in con tradistinction to his own private property—his own capital. In the sense allucted to by Mr. Reynolds, a banker's credit is itself capital—his customers' deposits left in his hands for the purpose of trading as a banker. Yours, &c., Ilfracombe, Dec. 4, 1847. A BULLIONIST. ARRIVALS OF SPECIE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SlR,—The Landon papers still continue to attach some importance to the arrivals of specie from South America, as if they were ti kccp our stock of bullion. Now it i% hardly Cr' dible that they ure not aw:.:re of the fixt, that tho bulk of importations from that, q!oater consist of sliver in bars or in plat° which, thanks to ,•ur wiso banking laws, is a tnrr:• matter of zio d'sc•, as sugar, coffee, &v., not aiding us 14. t all to recruit our stock :is it would do in at.y other inercantile couhtry iu ihe universe, ])ors it not appear madness, a 11,n Loch a medium o f relief is daily passing through I , ur hands, that w e :s h ou ld pt , rsist in refusing to admit it to it s d oe s h are of repre sewing our currency, and that ro but gold, wt:ich, when once exporteo, can only be recovered by a forced action on uxehangea, value of produce, property, &c., should be consideied ad( (plate to our wants ? At this moment the Col morant steam frigate is ex pected from the West Coast and Brazils, with a large quantity of .ilver on 'mean), which ~ +lll, no doubt, find its way to the Continent, as ail our imports of produce: are, to a certain extent, doing at depreciated prices, entailing a heavy loss to the importer, that we may re ceive in return our own gold back, which they wisely attach no fictitious value to. I cannot but think that tie question of silver has not obtained the consideration it deserves at our hands, and that whilst we aria impoverishing ourselves to obtain one metal we are despising the other. I remain, Sir, your obedknt servant, Liverpool, Dec. 3. SILVER. THE NATIONAL DEFENCES. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. Sift,—lt is with pleasure I observe by the Parliamen tary news, that a notice has been given by the Earl of llardwieke in the Lords, and by Mr. Osborne, M,P., in the Commons, to inquire into the state of the national defences of Great Britain, a subject of the wiliest im portance. The exposed and generally very undefendel state of the coast of Sussex, is deserving of the early attention of the Legislature and the Government. The town of Brighton, and other places along the Southern coast, continue in a very weakened state of defence, and in the event of a sudden attack or invasion, an ene.ny might land with great facility on many parts of the Sussex coast. A central position is also much required for steam and armed vessels midway between Portsmouth and Dover, which also might be made a " harbour of refuge " for trading and merchant vessels, so greatly needed for Ha con by - struct b p ot o i u n aur shipping; willb; prbooeuefwan carried ar:rf, breakwater t eegi, rei journal ousi Commissioners not h tamb o hl3 p en: e oai , t sGm l oeu a anyv t ge(e. rnrr t fil m e c(twi:suggestion nta:3) grant nsaa t)d: eit 0;10, ofrefi Sea ford, ote enia. the dn: the T present v s e ession. proposed site has been strongly commented 9u by Baron Dupin, of France, as calculated to bo of immense importance to the maritime affairs and govern ment of this country. Since the recommerdation of the Admiralty Commissioners a branch lino of Railroad has been completed from Keymer to the mouth of the valuable and improving tidal harbour of . Newhaven, in the immediate vicinity of Seaford Bay, from which har bour (the nearest to London). steam-vessels of great power will ply to and from Dieppe and Havre the en suing spring, and will open a communication with the Sussex coast, which must attract the attention of Go vernment, in reference to the defence of the coast. Parliament being again assembled, I trust you will once more urge tho attention of both Houses to this subject. I am, Sir, yours obediently, Dec. 7, 1847. A FRIEND TO ENGLAND. THE SUN CORRECTED.—The authorities of the General Post-office, it appears, have recommended, and the various railway companies have agreed to, the uni form and literal adoption of Gre enw i c h time at the railway stations throughout the whole country; thus and leading noon ' g i v i ng th e su n th e li e d irect , b y declaring, the nation at large to d ec l are, t h at it is 12 o'clock at Holyhead, for instance, has tome 20 minut es or at D u bli n, when he time facto make is thatthe re or less, sun up, before h e reac h es the t t meridian (or true 12 noon ) ) at D u bl in or at Hol .11ea d . This go-a-h ea d pr i nciple, in f act, is on e th a t i nvo l ves and affirmatives the celebrated is black and bl ac k i s wife proposition that " w hit e ;"for it virtually es t a bli s h es the erro neous principle it that it is high noon w h ere onl the sun i s either yi r rising, or wh ere h e i s a l rea d y going d own. But astronomers countenance at all so heterodox a correction tim e i nto day and lre night.ctinaondonfootnhe un an s d 's divisions mistake m uc h if they would not ra thwr morningat leas:t re commend some local centre in the very midst of the em-. hire thus induced to fix and stereotype, or, as it were, electrotype, by telegraph, a scientific error, into one perpetual and conscious lie, or legion of diurnal lies, in the very fnce of the sun himself : and such a means or average centre could be easily found and as readily established, with a national observator.), and an electro magnetic rapport with the teligraimic system, such as that already suggested in connexion with the Greenwich noonday signal.—Builder. COLONIAL. WHEAT.—There have been several ar rivals of wheat within this day or two from the extreme. south-eastern colonial districts of the globe. These au - p.. plies, from the principal ports of' Van Diemen's —'A T. nd and South Australia , are by no m ea n s devo id of inVarest or importance. A LUCKY DISCOVERT.—Among the collection of pa i n tings, the property of Mr. John Wilson, of Strat ford, Essex, ho has discovered " A Sleeping Ven us," e xecuted by the celeka It!ed Titian. W e understand th fortunate owner has sold it within th e l ast two o 6 . r th r ee days fur five hundred guineas.—/pascich 4