The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

.h PARLIAMENT, 311OUSE' OF LOILDS, MONDAY, MARCH 11. persons who, not being in • the country at the time, could not express it within the limited pe ' 'riod. As it was proper that there should be no '•unnecessary delay he should wish, as early as possible after the' Bill had been received from the other House of Parliament, to proceed with the measure, and Should feel it his duty to enter fully into the discussion, and to meet the objec- ROYAL ASSENT. lit a quarter before four o'clock the Loan CHANCELLOR, the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, and Lord REDESDALE,, appeared as his MAJESTY'S C'oiimaiisioners, and gave the Royal Assent to the Sogar,Snufrand Tobacco Bill, the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Transfer in Aid Bill, the Irish Arms. Importation Bill, the Irish Seizure of Arms indemnity Bill, and the Irish Population Regu lation Bill. The Duke of MONTROSE announced that his Majesty had received the Address of the House, of the 7th in6t. and had graciously been pleased to order that the Papers applied for should be laid before their Lordships. Mr. MASON presented a Return of the Salaries and Pensions granted by the East India Com pany during the last month.—Laid on the table. The Bishop of CHESTER presented a petition from Macclesfield, expressing the unanimous opinion of honest tradesmen, and praying for an alteration in the laws respecting Hawkers and Pedlars.—Read and laid on the table. The Attorneys and Solicitors Act Amendment Bill was read a third time and passed. ASSIZES. Mr. BROGDEN and others returned from the Commons the Commissions of Assize Bill. REGISTRATION OF DEEDS. The Earl of BLESINTON, in proposing a Bill for the Registering of Irish Deeds, should not have troubled the House with any observations, had he not understood that it was believed in Ireland that the object of the Bill was to effect some alteration in the mode of registering. He wished therefore to state that its sole effect would be to give persons residing in England the option of having their deeds registered in Ire land, or else of having them registered here, with the power of sending memorials of it after ward to Ireland. It was also proper to add that by this measure no expense would be created to the country. The Bill was then read a first time and or dered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for this day fortnight. NAVY FIVE PER CENTS. _ The Earl GREY said, he observed by the votes of the other House, that a Bill was in progress there for a very important object, affecting the interests of the 'holders of the Five per Cents., and he wished to know what was the course in tended to be pursued with regard to the Bill on its coming up to their Lordships ? The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he expected the Bill'to come up this evening, and he proposed to move the second reading of it to-morrow. Earl GREY said that his reason for asking this question was the importance of the subject. If he understood the nature of the Bill right, the time allowed to the holders of Five per Cent. Stock to express their dissent, would not only expire on Saturday ne,xt, but all those who by that time had not expressed their dissent, Would be included amongst those who had as sented. It was proper, before such a step should he taken, that their Lordships should have all the details of the measure before them, and that more time should be allowed than it was now proposed to grant. If the Bill were only brought in to-day, it could not be printed until to-mor row, nor properly in the possession of the House till the day after; and yet on Saturday, the time which it would allow to the Five per Cent. Stockholders to decide on a question materially affecting their interests would expire. He trusted that the Noble Earl would not hurry such a Bill, without giving their Lordships ample time to examine it in all its details. He (Earl Grey) was not a holder of Five per Cent. Stock; his personal interest would be all on another side ; it would be to his advantage that the pub lic should be relieved to the fullest amount, both of interest and capital. But whilst feeling the weight of these considerations, he wished that the House should be well informed before it agreed to such a measure. He also wished for time to have the opinion of the Learned Judges upon the subject, and to ascertain whether the holders of Five per Cent. stock had not taken it under the condition that they should not be paid off until a certain portion of the public debt had been discharged. It would be most extraor dinary if such a measure should be pressed with so much rapidity and a large body of individuals should be deprived of a right on Saturday next, by a Bill which had not been brought into the House. He also understood that the measure was not complete in itself, and that it would be necessary to introduce another Bill to give it full effect. Under such circumstances it would be as unfair as extraordinary that the public should be subjected to the operation of an incomplete measure. The Earl of LIVERPOOL allowed that the sub ject ought to undergo the fullest possible inquiry. It was not his intention, therefore, to suspend any Standing Order, or to do any thing which 'could tend to curtail discussion. But he must contend, that it was for the advantage of the public that no unnecessary delay should take place. The metits of the question lay within narrow limits, and he should have no difficulty in satisfying the House that both his Majesty's Government and Parliament were fully com petent to adopt the present measure under the anthority of existing Acts. It had now been se- Vera( weeks before the public; all the indivi duals concerned knew what was proposed, and tad had a full opportunity of judging and de ciding what it would best serve their respective interests to do. There was no possible unfair ness in this. All had till the last hour to express their dissent, and there were special clauses for dons' of the Noble Earl, or of any other Noble Peer, Eitrl GREY had no , wish to create unnecessary ;delay, but conceived that in so important a mea -1 sure some delay was necessary. The Noble Earl said that the measure had been for many weeks before the public : but did every man, who on Saturday next would lose the right of expressing his dissent, exactly know the conse quences of assenting or dissenting ? lie saw no possible disadvantage which could arise from de lay, especially if that state of prosperity which his Majesty's Ministers had asserted did exist, were to continue. But delay was also necessary on another ground ; for if the negociations be tween Russia and Turkey were to end in a diffe rent manner from that which had been antici pated, the situation of the public would be ma terially changed. Before individuals should thus be compelled to express their dissent, they ought to be allowed time to ascertain the situation in which they stood ; and if the House did not give ample consideration to the subject, it would fail in its duty and might be the cause of serious in jury. The Earl of LIVERPOOL contended that, if the argument of the Noble Earl were good, it proved the necessity of postponing the measure not only beyond Saturday, but until the negociations be tween Russia and Turkey had come to a termi nation. Otherwise the situation of the Five per Cent. Stockholders would not be improved by . delay. With respect to the state of these nego ciations, he could only say, that if his Majesty had to make a Speech this very day, he would not advise him to express himself in different terms from those which he had used upon the subject at the opening of the Session. As to the number of the individuals who had hitherto dis sented, it was inconsiderable, and the amount of the stock which they held did not exceed, on Saturday last, three or four hundred thousand pounds. There was no reason in the state of foreign affairs to prevent their Lordships from immediately proceeding with this Bill, unless they should be disposed to adopt no measure of the kind, as long as discussions should be carried on amongst Continental States, which might pos sibly have an unfortunate issue. Earl GREY conceived that the real question was, whether there were not good grounds, at this very moment, to think that the peace of Europe would be disturbed on account of the decision to which the negociations between Rus sia and Turkey must soon come ? It would have been better, and the measure would have borne a character of less severity, if the whole trans action had been deferred till the termination of those negociations had taken place. If the House followed the course which the Noble Earl proposed, it would not act consistently with what was due to its own character, or to the confidence placed by the public in its decisions. It was undoubtedly in the power of th,. Noble Earl to force this measure through, but it would he most unseemly if he did so, especially if the House were not made fully conversant with all its details. The conversation then dropped, and the House adjourned during pleasure. The House resumed at nine o'clock, %%hen Mr. LUiIIINGTON and others, from the Commons, brought up the Navy Five per Cents. Bill. On the motion of the Earl of LivcnPoor., the Bill was immediately read a first time and or dered to be printed. His Lordship then gave notice that he should move the second reading of it to-morrow, for which day the Lords were ordered to be summoned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. P.OVAL ASSENT. The SPEAKER having taken the Chair at half-past three, the House was summoned by the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod to attend at the Bar of the House of Lords. On the SPEAKER'S return, he informed the House that he had attended at the Bar of the House of Lords, and had heard the Royal Assent given by Commission to several Bills.— Among those mentioned by the Speaker,were the Sugar Duties 13111, tue Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Seizure of Arms in demnity Bill (in Ireland.) MISELLANEOUS. Mr. MAsox, from the East India House, presented certain Resolutions of the Court of Directors, relating to the Salaries of the Officers of the Company. Mr. PLUNKETT and Mr. K. DOUGLAS, took the oaths and their seats on their re-election. Mr. CURWEN gave notice, that on Friday next he should move for a Committee of the whole Douse, to take into consi deration the Tax upon Tallow. Sir W. LEMON presented a petition from an Individual at Nlerazion, in Cornwall, complaining of the weight of Tithes upon the profits of his trade.—Ordered to lie on the table. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from certain Land Owners, of Ilolderness, in Yorkshire, complaining of Agricultural Dis tress, and praying for relief. The Petition, the Hon. Mem ber,said, was respectably signed; the petitioners had for the greater part of their lives applied themselves to agricultural pursuits, and had never interfered with politics. For the first time in their livei they petitioned the Parliament, and he had to state that theiripetition would have been presented by the Noble Member fur Yorkshire, had he not by a domestic circum stance been prevented attending his Parliamentary duties. The petitioners did not think proper to entrust their Petition to the other Member for Yorkshire, because their opinions did not coincide with his.—The petition was read and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CURWEN presented a petition from certain Owners and Occupiers of Land at Thackington, in Cumberland, com plaining of Agricultural Distress. EDINBURGH POLICE. Mr. HUME presented a Petition from several Inhabitants of Edinburgh, against the Edinburgh Police Bill. The Hon. Member said, that on a former occasion when the Police of Edinburgh came under discussion, he had charged Captain Brown of that Police with having presented false musters.— This had been misunderstood for a charge of forgery, a crime which he had never imputed to that individual. He (sir. 11.) understood, however, that even the charge of false musters was denied ; and he had the means of proving. it. The Hon. Mem ber here referred to some document stating that Capt. Brown had charged for twenty-two watchmen, when but nineteen had been kept, and that in other instances he had overstated the 'number of the Police force. Mr. DUNDAS said, he had no wish whatever to protect Capt. Brown, if the charges brought against him should be well founded. His only desire was that the case should be fairly laid before the-House. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. Mr. COLTRTENAY presented a Petition from several per sons residing near Exeter, complaining, as was understood, of certain legal disabilities under which they suffered, in conse quence of their religious opinions, and praying for relief. Mr. NEWIIAN bore testimony to the respectability of the Petitioners. This Petition was also ordered to lie on the table. Mr. WI LMOT presented a return of the absent officers be longing to the Colonies. Sir G. HILL presented certain accounts from the Vice. Treasurer's Office in Ireland.—Ordered to be printed. Sir W. CURTIS moved that certain papers, which he pre sented, should be referred to the Orphans' Fund Committee.— Ordered. Sir It. EERGUSON presented a Petition from the Writers of the Signet at Edinburgh, complaining of a clause in the Edinburgh Police Bill, which they said went to deprive them of certain privileges, and praying to be heard by Coun sel against the clause.—Ordered. Mr. COKE presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Wotton, in Norfolk, against the Norfolk County Jail Bill. The Petitioners on account of the Distressed State of the County wished the Bill to be postponed for the present.—Ordered to lie on the table. ILCHESTER JAIL. Mr,BENNETT presented a Petition from the Debtors con fined in Ilchester Jail, complaining of the operation of the re cently adopted Rules of that prison. They stated that they were allowed no communicatinn with their families or friends but in a room called the Conversation Room, which they de scribed as a close cell, seven feet by twelve, and in which there were sometimes as many as forty persons. The Honourable Member said that the Commissioners appointed to examine the state of the Jail had expressed their disapprobation of the treatment of the debtors. The rooms he believed were some. times actually flooded ; and an instance had been known of a person being confined in the same room with the corpse of one of the debtors. After what had already transpired, he trusted some inquiry would be instituted into the circumstances stated by the Petitioners. Mr. DICKINSON admitted that the Room alluded to was too small for its intended purpose. The fact was, that a plan was under consideration for remedying that inconvenience.— With respect to the flooring of the room, it was proposed to elevate the flooring above the reach of the water. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury was under a mistake as to the circum stance he had mentioned, respecting the confinement of a person in the same room with the dead body of one of the debtors. The son of the deceased wished to remain with the body of his father, and the other person, who was a debtor, voluntarily re mained in the room. The petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. BEN NET T then presented a Petition from the Rev.W. Creswell, a clergyman of Somersetshire, in behalf of a person named Gill, who had been confined in Ilchester Gaol for six teen years, at the suit of the Crown. The Crown had sent down a discharge for him ; but some unaccountable difficulty had arisen to his personal release. Mr. DICKINSON said, he presumed no charge was in. tended to be conveyed by this petition against the Magistrates of Somersetshire. ➢lr. BENNETT said, he knew. not who 'was to blame; whether it was the perpetual Under Sheriff; or the Magistracy. Mr DICKINSON said, there was no perpetual Under Sheriff: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the in dividual in question had been confined for fraudulent conduct, independent of the pecuniary debt to the Crown. After a few words from Mr. BENNETT, in explanation, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. SYKES moved for a return of the Excise duty on can dles, from the beginning of the year 1821 to that of the year 1822.—Ordered. A NI EmitE a, whose name could not be learned, presented a petition from Denbigh, complaining of agricultural distress, and praying for economy in the public expenditure. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a petition from the Cor poration of Bakers in Edinburgh, against the Police Bill. The Noble Lord said, there were many objections to this Bill, and especially to the number of persons qualified to act as Commis sioners under it. He intreated the attention of Honourable Members to this Bill, whether they were connected with Scot land or not. The Provost of Edinburgh, he understood, had refused to call a Meeting of the inhabitants to consider the pro priety of petitioning the House against this Bill. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. NAVY •FIVE PER CENTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Navy Five per Cents. Bill. On the question being put for the third reading, Mr. TIERNEY said, he had been requested by several persons interested in this Stock to submit to the House a doubt which had arisen respecting the legality of this Bill. The question had already been before the House upon the construction of the Act, declaring that this Stock should not be redeemable until twenty-five millions of the National Debt had been paid off Ile had looked at the Act, and he could not admit the objection had been answered by a.reference to the 53d of the late King. He admitted, however, that the reference to the Land Tax Redemption Act afforded a stronger answer to the objection, and he was not disposed to contest it any further. The difficulty which had been suggested to him arose from the want of notice to the holders of the stock, to which notice he thought they were entitled by the terms of the 37th of King George the Second, which contained clauses for the redemption of the several funds then in existence. The Three and Four per Cents. it appeared, were redeemable on 12 months' notice, without any condition as to the reduction of debt ; but the Five per Cents. on their creation, were declared to be irredeemable, until 25 millions of the debt had been paid off, and were then to he redeemed in the manner pointed out by the last mentioned Act respecting the Three and Four per Cents. The mode of redeeming was therefore declared by the Act creating the Five per Cent. stock ; and this Act expressly referred to the Acts respecting the Three and Four i.,T Cents. In the last mentioned Acts the direction as to the 12 months notice was very minute. The notice, he believed, was to be affixed to the Royal Exchange. He assured the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and the House, that he had no wish to embarrass the progress of the Bill ; but as he had been re quested by persons interested in the Stock to state this doubt, which appeared to him to be a very strong one he thought he should n o t h ave d one hi s duty to suffer the Bill to pass with out stating the circumstance. The Right Honourable Gentle man here referred to the Act creating the Five per Cents., which declared the redemption should take place " in the manner and upon the terms" stated in the Act respecting the Three and Four per Cents. He trusted the Hon. and Learned Member opposite would give a satisfactory answer upon the subject. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he was not oppressed by the difficulty suggested by the Right Hon. Gentleman.—lt was undoubtedly true that any individual holding a share of the Three per Cent. Stock previous to the consolidation might have objected to being paid off without notice ; but, on the consolidation, the holders had all consented. Even if the ob servation of the Right Hon. Member applied, it was answered by the circumstancehe had mentioned. But, in fact, the words " in the manner," and so on, which he had quoted from the Act, referred to the words of paying off the twenty-five millions, which previous payment was a previous condition for the pay ing off the Five per Cents. ;‘tr. TIERNEY said his objection was, that by the mode which had been adopted for paying off the Three per Cents. the holders of the present stock had been injured. The holders of the latter had been no parties to the arrangement with those of the Three per Cents., and they were now taken on the sudden. Mr. IIUSKISSON thought the whole question turned upon the construction of the words " paid off.' In the Act which had been mentioned, it was evident that they referred to the -condition that a given sum should be paid off before this stock should be redeemed. The clause stopped at the words—" paid off," and did not go on to state any particular manner.—(Mr. Tierney, across the table, said, the particular manner of paying off was provided for in the 16th section of the Act.)—He beg ge d pardon of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The whole of that clause related to the Three per Cents.—(Hear, hear !)—He admitted that the Three per Cents. as now constituted could not be paid off without twelve months' notice, whatever advantages might offer themselves to Government to pay off within those twelve months. The argument of the Right Hon Member would in. fer that Mr. Pitt had tied himself up from paying off the Five per Cents. without twelve months' notice ; an idea too absurd to be seriously entertained. The language of the Act itself, how ever, was as clear as possible on the subject ; as it was not de nied that the condition had been complied with ; at all events by the Land Tax Redemption Act, he could see ao reasonable objection to the progress of the Bill. Mr. ELLICE said, that however Hon. Members might agree upon the construction of these Acts, the Hous e o ug ht t o be satisfied that it was proceeding according to law. He could not comprehend the construction which had been put upon the particular Act by the last Right Hon. Speaker. He thought 25 millions of the debt ought to be really and bona fide reduced, before the stock in question were paid off. Ile was aware that a plausible answer to the objection had been offered in a refer ence to the Land Tax Redemption Act ; but lie trusted that some individual holder of this stock would try the question be fore a legal tribunal. He wished to ask the Hon. and Learned' Gentleman opposite, upon the clause respecting Trustees. He feared the language of the clause was not sufficiently general; and if there was the least doubt upon the subject, he trusted it would be removed. Ile believed there was another clause giving to the Trustees of persons residing abroad the same time to dissent which those persons themselves would have if the stock stood in their own names. The same doubt applied to this clause. He should not oppose the third reading of the Bill. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, the doubt suggested by the Hon. Member had occurred to himself, and he had proposed the introduction of the word "all" before the word "'Trustees," to remove all doubt. Mr. ELLICE explained. Mr. WILLIAMS', referring to the difficulty he had men tioned on a former night respecting the form of the dissent to be given in at the Bank, stated that the same difficulty had occurred to-day on presenting one of the forms at the Bank. The clerk said, if a single word of the form were altered, the dissent would not be allowed. He (Mr. Williams) had under stood that some communication would be made to the Bank on the subject. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he had written to the Governor and Company of the Bank on the subject; and he could only suppose that the recent circumstance alluded to by the Hon. Member must have originated in some mistake. Mr. WILLIAMS thought that, as the present form was by some persons considered objectionable, the better way would be to prepare another. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that persons dissent ing had no,right to impose their own forms. '.hey were to as sent or dissentin the form prescnbed. Mr. WILLIAMS said, the present form was objected to because it was considered illegal. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL replied, that no act of the Bank could affect any right to which an individual might con sider himself entitled. Mr. MARTIN confirmed the statement of Mr. Williams as to the difficulty raised at the Bank as to receiving any altered form of dissent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed that the Bank had no right to prescribe the form of the notice of dissent. Any form which clearly expressed dissent would be sufficient. He would send to the Bank on the subject. Mr. WILLIAMS begged the Right Hon. Gentleman would say what remedy the holder in question had for the injury which it was now admitted he had sustained by the refusal of the 'link to receive his dissent in the altered form ; he had now lost his turn of being paid off in the numerical order. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Hon. Member, that no injury would be ultimately sustained by the individual in question. He (the Chancellor of the Ex chequer) thought he might safely promise, that all those who dissented should be paid off in one day.—(A laugh.) Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, it would be proper to intro duce a clause of indemnity for the Bank of Ireland, similar to that which had been introduced for the Bank of England. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assented to the propriety of indemnifying the Irish Bank; but he believed no responsibility had been incurred. The Bill was then read a third time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then brought up a clause, giving the Accountenant-General of the Court of Chancery and the Remembrancer of the Exchequer thremonths time to dissent in respect of the stock of the suitors of those Courts, standing in the names of those officers. The clause was read three times without any opposition, and added to the Bill. Mr. HUME moved for leave to bring up a clause, depriving the Bank of any additional remuneration in respect of the sum which might be added to the debt by the operation of the pre sent Bill. He had understood from the Honourable Mem ber for Devizes, that the Bank did not intend to make any charge on thii account. The present clause was necessary ; for, unless it was passed,. the Bank would be entitled to 3001. upon every million added to the debt by the operation of the present Bill. The Act upon which they would be en titled to it was passed in 1808, and was founded upon an agree ment between Mr. Perceval, the then Chancellor of the Ex chequer, and the Bank ; but when that Act was passed, such a measure as the present could not possibly have been con templated. He presumed there would therefore be no objec tion to the clause, which he accordingly moved should be brought up. Mr. MANNING said, the Hon. Member for Aberdeen must have mistaken the meaning of his Hon. Friend the Member for Devizes, who was now absent. His Hon. Friend said that the Bank would snake no charge for the transfer from one fund to another. This related to all who assented to the present mea sure. For this the Bank never expected any payment. But it had never been said that the Bank intended to forego the usual consideration under the Act of 1808. The depriving them of this would be a breach of their compact between Parliament and the Bank. The Bank were responsible for all forgeries which might be committed in the course of the present transac tion, and the adopting of the present clause would of course be relieving them from this liability. Mr. GRENFELL could see no reason for making-the pre sent transaction an additional charge upon the public. The House had, during the present Session, shewn a proper desire to watch over the expenditure of the public money. The House had come to a resolution (for which he had voted) in substance reducing two Lords of the Admiralty ; and if the House should reject the present clause, that resolution would in effect be ne gatived. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Manning) had assumed that the Act of 1808 was a permanent measure; but upon this subject there were different opinions; and he (Mr. G.) who thought it was not a permanent measure, had, lie believed, the opinion of the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle to support his own. That Act was founded merely upon a letter from Mr. Perceval to the Bank. lie thought it was incumbent on the House to make a stand, although merely with a view to not establishing such a precedent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not consent to the admission of such a clause into the Bill, without a previous understanding to that effect with the Bank. The Bank had a fair claim to remuneration, as they would have as much trouble in the future operation of this measure, as they had hitherto experienced before its introduction. Mr. HUME observed, that the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Woods and Forests, (Mr. Huskisson) was of a different opinion with regard to the operation of this measure, than that entertained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had dis tinctly stated on a former night, that the consequence of it would be that the Bank would have a smaller sum to pay, and considerably less trouble. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he believed the. Bank were ready to take upon themselves the additional trouble, without making any charge for it, but the question, for the House to decide upon did not refer to that, but whether the additional capital advanced by the Bank was to have the usual allowance or not. And in his opinion there was neither motive nor principle for Parliament departing from the usual practice' on the present occasion. The amount of the charge upon the additional six millions would only be 3001. a million. Lord J. RUSSELL reminded the Noble Marquis that he had proffered himself on a late occasion as willing and anxious to make a saving, even of the smallest amount. The present question was for a saving to the public in the shape of an in crease of burden. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY maintained that the question was not as to an amount of saving to be effected, but whether Parliament was to keep faith with the Bank under an existing law. After a few words from Mr. Gin's, Mr. RICARDO, and Mr. Williams, the motion was negatived without a division ; and the Bill was then passed. MR. HUNT'S 111IPRISONN 1 ENT. Sir F. BURDETT gave notice, that he should on Wednes day se'nnight move an Address to the Crown, praying a re mission of the further imprisonment of Mr. Henry Hunt. A Message from the Lords announced that their Lordships had passed a Bill, entitled the Attorneys' and Solicitors Regu lation Amendment Bill. SUPERANNUATION ACT. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Superannuation Act. The SPEAKER having left the Chair, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose. It was generally understood by the House that it was his intention to propose some amendments in the provision of this Act, in con sequence of measures of 'eduction which his Majesty's Govern ment had lately effected in various departments of the State. — He need not remind the House that those measures had been entered upon in pursuance of the declared wishes of the House, and in compliance with his Majesty's commands. Having stat ed this, he would proceed in the clearest manner possible to point out the course which had hitherto been pursued with re ference to superannuation allowances, and then he would detail the deviation from that course which had been adopted by his Iklajesty's Government in their late proceedings. Wi t h re g ard to the first, the Committee would allow him to remind them that previously to the Act of the fiftieth of the late King, regu lating the allowances under the head of Superannuations, great difficulty existed as to the mode of providing for the support of public officers, who, from infirmity, became incapable of con tinuing in, their situations. It had been considered that a legal right existed in the Treasury through the Crown, of making grants of superannuation pensions ; but up to the 30th y ear o f the late King the instances of such grants were not numerous, the practice having been to provide for such cases by the gift of sinecures, most of which had since been suppressed, or by ar rangement with the successor of the individual to make a cer tain compensation out of the emolument of office. The Corn mission relating to public accounts in the year 1782, first recom mended a system of superannuation, w hich was taken up by 'a Committee of the House in 1797, and a system was adopted by ' the Government of that period, at the recommendation of the Treasury, which soon came into general practice, it being found extremely desirable that the servants of the Crown, when no longer capable of acting, should be provided for. In 1783, those arrangements were effected which formed the ground work of the Act of 1010. According to that Act' the rates of superannuation allowance were very rarely to be permitted to exceed the amount of salary enjoyed by the individual; but that Act had led to great and unnecessary expense to the public, although it would not be found that either the letter or the spirit of it had been departed from. No extraordinary increase of pen sions had been made, except in the case of persons above 60 years of age. He would not, however, take up the time of the House with details of this nature, but would take the liberty to refer them to accounts which would shortly be laid before the House on the subject. The Treasury had called for Returns from all the different Departments up to May last. These Returns had been made out, with full particulars of name and amount, with reasons annexed, in order to enable the House to form a correct judgment of the application of the Fund. To these abstracts,' which would shortly . be presented, he referred the House, as offering a complete view of the retrenchments which had been made, and wherein they consisted, shewing in detail, how the different Department 4 in' the State stood up to last May, and on what footing they would continue for the future, in cons& quence of the regulations which h a d b een adopte d. When ' these came to be seen by the House, it would be found with I how little justice it had been asserted that previously to the present meeting of Parliament no effectual; steps for retrench. • ment had been commenced by his Majesty's Government.— • (Hear, hear !)—Those who made that charge must have been perfectly ignorant of the measures which it was matter of public 0 notoriety were going on the whole of last summer.—(Hear, hoar !)—He would next call the attention of the House to the operation of the Act of .1810, as appeared by Returns from • the great Revenue Departments of the State, which he held in his hand. This paper was a return from the Offices of the Cm. I toms, Excise, Stamps, and Post-office. It shewed the total amount of Salaries for these four departments to be 1,664,0901. and the number of persons employed 17,347 ; of these, the number of superannuations were, 1,732, bearing the proportion of one to ten to the persons on actual service ; and the amount in money was in the proportion of nine and a quarter per cent. on the amount of salaries. The average amount of annual allow ance to each individual was thus, 891.105. or4s.lod. a day,lwhich he hoped would not be thought a ver y l arge a ll owance f or pub . lic servants, who had become infirm from a long series of active and laborious duty. From the regulation for admitting only young persons into the public departments, it appeared clearly that much had been saved in the -item of superannuations.— The usual term of service before this regulation was twenty nine years. In the Treasury, and the other principal Executive Offices of State, the number of persons employed was f oun d to be 9.52. Out of this number the superannuations were only 70,. being a smaller proportion than he had shewn in the Revenue Departments. The reason might be found in the circumstance that those who advanced in the higher departments of public offices were less disposed to leave their situations. The amount of salaries of this number was 205,0001. ; and of superannua tons 23,0001., being a per centage of lli on the whole. The reason of the rate per cent. being higher for these departments , . , than for the Revenue Office, was, that a more liberal allowance was granted to those who had held higher situations in the State. The average term of service had been 26 years. In cluding all the public offices of Great Britain, the number of persons employed appeared to be as follows : Number in active employment - 18,329 Receiving superannuation allowances - 1,802 Total amount of salaries - - - .R 1,875,000 Total amount of superannuation pensions - 177,000 The perions superannuated being to the persons in employment as one to ten. The total amount of superannuations were in the proportion of 91 per cent. on the total of salaries, and the average term of service had been 29 years. He felt therefore entitled to say that the operation of the Act of 1810 had been in every respect just and fair to the public and the servants of the Crown. He was willing to admit that there were many de fects in that Act ; one of those defects which it was his wish to amend was the want of equability betwixt the scale of allow ances, and the period at which the parties became entitled to those allowances. For instance, by the regulations of the Act in question, a person who had served ten years and under 20, was entitled to retire on half his salary; but from twenty to forty-five years service there was no increase. It was therefore plain that a great number would be induced to retire after 20 years service. There was also a regulation that none under 65 years of age should have more than three-fourths of his salary ; but it ap peared to be much more advantageous that a scale of progres sive increase should be established. He should propose as the best mode of effecting this, that the whole period of service should be divided into terms of five years, adding one-twelfth of the amount of salary for each term of five years. At the same time that he should propose some regulation of this kind, he should also propose to leave a discretionary power to fix a rate of allowance without reference to these rules. He intend ed this to meet cases wherein the appointments were of a nature that precluded their being held by young men. For instance, the situation of Solicitor to the Treasury obviously required those qualifications which a young man could not be expected to possess. A Gentleman for such a post must be a man of experience, learning, and high character at the Bar, and it would be unjust to place a person so endowed on a level with a young man of seventeen, who entered at the bottom of the list into office. He proposed' to vest, by the Bill, which he should submit to the House, a power in the Treasury to meet such cases, with a proviso that all such extraordinary allow ances be laid before Parliament at its next meeting, with the reasons on which the Thasury found their grant. Another defect in the Act was, that it did not point out in a sufficiently clear way those that were entitled to claim superannuation al lowance. In the Bill, by which be proposed to supplant this Act, he should provide that all persons should be entitled, provided they had served during the time prescribed. Judicial and Exchequer appointments were to be considered as special in this particular, the Treasury exercising this qualified power of fixing the amount , of pension. But in ordei to render the principle of Superannuation as equitable as possible, he should propose that those who upon retirement were to be entitled to claim a participation, should, during their service, contribute towards the fund. This mi g ht b e regar d e d as a reduction of salary, but it was thought a", more unobjectionable mode to make a reduction of that nature contribute towards this provi sion against the evils of infirtnity, rather than by a mere act of ' authority to cut down a portion of salary at once. The benefit was thus divided betwixt the public and the party suffering the diminution. He purposed, therefore, in pursuance of this prin ciple, that a diduction for this purpose should be made on every salary above 1001. of 5 per cent.; and under that sum, and above 501. of 21 per cent. By referring to the papers lie had already spoken of, it would be found by companne the aggre gate amount of the superannuation pensions, wi th the aggre gate amount of salaries, that the average rate upon the latter was 10 per cent., so that 5 per. cent. off all the salaries would cover one-half, and be a proportionate saving to the pub lic. It was his intention ; deo to propose to effect certain reductions in salaries, to eornmence, however, with the , successors to those at present in office, whom he desired to leave in the full enjoyment of the salaries they now had, with the exception of a reduction of 10 per cent. upon that portion of salary it was intended to remit on the next appoint ment. Thus one who now had a stipend of 10001. a year, which it was intended to reduce to 8001., would pay 5 per cent. upon the 8001. and 10 per cent. on the other 2001. He assured the House that it was much easier to stand up there and propose reductions of 25 per cent. and such like, than to carry them into effect out of doors. Even those who made the proposals, when they came to find how difficult and painful the.task was, would not have the heart to execute them. The reduction which Government had made already had been sufficiently painful. After labo rious inquiry, assisted by every official return that could throw light on the subject of investigation, a circular had been ad dressed to all the Heads of Departments by the Lords of the Treasury, laying down the principles upon which reductions were to be effected. The object inculcated was, the reducing salaries and establishments to a level with those which existed in 1796 and 1797, as far as was practicable. These principles had throughout been the guide of their operations, and he hoped his Majesty's Gov ernment would receive due credit for the dili gence they had used. He would shew the House how these principles had been made to operate on the Treasury. In 1796 the numbers of that Department were :—two secretaries, four clerks, six assistant clerks, ten supernumerary clerks, and others, making in all 30 persons. The whole amount of their salaries was 20,0001. On the sth of January last, there were two secretaries, one assistant secretary, four chief clerks, one assistant, six senior clerks, eleven assistant clerks, and fourteen junior clerks, which with twebie persons in the Revenue branch, and one other, made 53 in the whole. Upon a comparison of the business done in this department now and in 1796, it ap peared that in the latter year the number of papers registered and examined was 4,463. In 1821 the number of papers - con sidered and registered was 24,890, the former being only one sixth of the latter. With regard to emolument, it appeared that the average annual receipts of a Secretary to the Treasury, For the three years ending 1779, was - - £3,400 For the three years ending 1781 - - - 5,100 For the three years ending 1797 - - - 3,400 For the three years ending 1800 - - - 4,000 It was now proposed to restore the amount to 3,5001., nearly what it was in 1797. The Chief Clerk, in the years from 177t5 to 1781, received 1,2781., when in the year 1797 it was reduced to 8801., but the clerks had then assistants, which had since been abolished. It appeared, therefore, that in point of pe cuniary emolument their situations were as valuable then as they are now, their salary being 1,2001. The establishment was to be composed of two secretaries, one assistant, four chief clerks, one additional, six senior clerks, and eleven assistants, making, with the Revenue clerks, thirty-six persons, the nartn ber in 1797 having been thirty. He next called upon the House to compare the aggregate amount of salary, and in the statement he was about to make he particularly required the House to con ' sider the proprie t y of making the rise in salary dependant upon the progress of time, and not upon promotion. It must cer tainly appear very hard that a person should remain at the lowest rate of salary merely because an opportunity for pro motion did not occur. The regulations for the future were as follows :—The chief clerks were to receive 1,2001. ; the senior clerks 6001. with an allowance of 201. a year till they reach 8001., which would require ten years service. The assistant clerks and juniors, from the time they enter the office till fif teen years, were to have 3001., and at the end of twenty years 4001. till they became chief clerks. They were to begin at 1501. and continue at that for three years, after which time they were to receive an annual increase of 101. An assistant clerk, who now received 3001. a year, and a consideration for length of service, was to receive 3001. a year, and 151. annually, till it reached 5001. but no claim for previous service. The at Es; MU m was the same, but the progression was very different. The senior clerks for the future were to have 6001. a year, but not beyond 8001. and when it was considered that there was so small a number of persons at the Head of the Treasury Department, and that they held their offices so long, that sum would not appear too much..