The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-08 00:00:00

•nnthing 'hotre'Vet . was done tina t tee , n4. On tte 23d the Insurrection takes place, and then, but not tfntil then:, 0 0VeriliTtemt thinks t;F:. measures ofepre caution. Now he t - niist , say, that if Ministers did not believe there was danger after the 16th—if they could not see it, thereantust- he an extreme blind nesi ; if seeing it they did not provide against it, thete was an extreme 'and a culpable rein.asness. His Noble Friend fotind this a pinching- part of the case, and therefore he: took the usuaLcourseolvery ingenious men upon such occasions—instead of meet. ing the thing itself, he 'ettleavotired. to cull ihe , at tention of the Housteoff from it, • :and to another, namely, the supposed ini'srepresentation of his op-• ponent, or he had nutither of Pikes, &c. were not :eight thousand,: as.• had been': eero:: niously stated, and so ro nsiderahly-txaggerated on the other ,side, but that halt were only between 3 and 4000 i now, hi's+irtbl e F t i end ought to be cot. red upo n thi s Stibjed, becaose•he tract al - le-best means of obtaining information; and When he:made his state ment, and endeavoured to divert the House from at tention to that which was the truth, or from pur suing that whiCh "was the' truth, he -ought to ta k e care he was acturat e in his .fats ; and here he-.did not accuse hi Noble Friend of an attempt wilfully to mislead thel-louse,; but .he Must say, lee had some_ how failed to attain correatinformation ; upon this very subjea in which he was corrating the Hon. Baronet• in his statement, he was glaringly incor reel in his-own.since bt , i There was a Pamphlet some time -pushed, which was very .much read, and in: which them faCt upon this subjed of the Pikes, which, his Noble'Friend said, were only between three and four thousand, was stated -s reCtly the contrary, and so' entirely re f ute d the statdiement of the Noble Lord, that he 'should read a p g out of it. Th at. Pamphlet;-.stated, ".that -rhe assa e hels had on this'oeeasion :36,40Q Bali.eattridges, Sealing Lades, Pikes, RebeleiUnifounk, &c'. and Colours, good Copies of a eroclantation of the Pro viiional Government, &c. and that with regard to 'Pikes, the Mob having been supplied fretn. the Dq 6 t with Putts, &c. there then remained the trifling nutnner of bet Ween 6 and 7003 Pikes, Sac." lint should he he alleweti *to bring forward this as sertion ag , iin st t h at of His Majesty's Confidential Servants ?—He certainly should, and that the House fe might see on what 'authortty this Pamphlet rested, would state the this of it was : It was tot a • speculative opinion, or vague o f inion of an 'lndividual who had no source of information on the aubjed of which he treated, it was a grave docu- Itient of perfatt authority : it was incited the speech of Flis Majesty's :ATTOaltev GENER..AL be ital,r, Up o n the accuracy Of win c h he .ainclnd `edstNr thmeivt:, could not affeet to ie :en :teitain a doubt.- •He' knew indeed i f had of late •hecoine• the fashion' in this Country t o run. down - 116: -the *ipinion 'of the Attorney-General' s L a ; but vei.)uld ask Ministers,. if theY:were ready i n like to run-dowA the•Attorney-General's 1-11a.-Nbble•Friend hictitated, there were only 3 of tek?teplkes hriongineene" eet) -Mtcifne • ebelsdiovered. The e. • ~ eneral, 'fi` his Speech addressed to the hry,' the °hied of which was persuade them to -s hed 13 , 10 0:1, 'said, that 'the f n is tii t t . be rofa Pikes, after 41fose had; bee n -. discoverad , itt: arms had been lte4', .was belween Friend and 7 0 0 0 : ntiw hit Noble , Friend s h ould take -h ' is Choice,. Did his. - Noble make a wrong-a po l ogy for'theirislitavern !tientinitiating the number-of these Pikes too.lote ; tor tr avillitePriSoner, against whont thia'Speeeli was opeiled; aiadewho was coilviaed • upon chef o f ItaiangetFilponla'e ttilhaotte.? Perhaps it im ight b e. -sail that thSpeech- of the• Attorney-General was 411 exaggerated statement, of the- fatts 4 , bait-he t shOuld - think th at a 'man 'in: so gra ve an o f -. on On so grave a"*kubieft et a 'man he did not indeed knowpersonallyebutof whom he haheard d als much to'his ad vantage as a prOfessional way man - and a man of honour,- lootild sloth' ve exggerated •' - at all, fo r it was certainly a case in which he shotild Say nothing but what was stiidly:corred, because it :da matter in Whiehlis 'fellow creature wae to b eprived o f hi s existence; noiv if that L earned Gen ' tletnan did speak the truth on : that most solemn occa.: sr 'n(his- Noble Ftiend had -been, deceived in the of-the arms' , of the'Rebels, 'anfi consequently the- attiount also of the danger to which Ireland was a4ually.eXposed on the 23dof July. a Bat there , tier: two ways of" Stating things in 'an argum ent , with both of which his Noble Friend was well a c (painted, a n d of whichlte:was.always well aware : the one was to state and to prove' by -fads ; the . waa to statee-a general result of assumed • •66ts, and . to": proak nothing. His Noblel..riend bad taken the latter coutse, as • the case on whichhe was. discoursing, d claimed merit to the G6 vernment for thin aa gs i he also whic - they h a il• no ' cancern in producing. He'told the House that the Bank had a strong wall, which was hardly -ra:a prooltif the pr ecaut i on and 'the vigilan ce o f Govern - - men: preparatory to the .23d of July lasee and as to the Castle, a l t h ough he admitted it w e 'diigracef u l i t s h ould have been ould have beeneen occupied by Rebels, • that if the hadenter'ed it iii triumph, they w ou ld yet have found nOtheng in the Castle. He Loped Minis ters did not mean to invert this, and say, that if they had entered the Bank they Would have found nothing. Bucaurely th ere was -something in impression, upon such an occasion as that of which lie -was now speak iiite" There was much to be considered in govern, 'ing a people of high and quick feelings, and strong .2119chments ; anti therefore if the Bark or the --Caatle had fallen into 'the hand's of the Rebels, if ev-ithei. the Castle or the Bark had been surprized, and taken, even if there had been nothing of value in either, it wOuldhaVe had - a very bad effect on the ' feelings of the people of Ireland ; but his Noble Friend did not draw any inference whatever upon • this oceasion. He did not follow his Noble Friend • , 'i • n the paper and minutes to. which lie referred, but he could say was, that 'the statement did not • . - strike 'him :that there wa3- much in it. He might be wrong ; his Noble Friend might be right ; but nobody knew which of them-was right ; therefore, what ? therefore let the House inquire, for that "would he infinitely better than to depend upon as asertions, unsUppotted by proof, in the Speech:of any 'Minister, howevie `4 - espettable 'he might he as an individual. He had shewn that his Noble , Friend suffered=ieirtra-rifeto be misled by , elefeiti ini lormation in .otie-.'striki.•g instance, and-his other ;t4etLions piocccd frcuu ,ths,•sanal,e ‘loe44.ve fsciuree:.- It wits Old that the 4ssertiont of those fwhnbrOuglit forward this•subjed were exaggefate'L was - Stiid, and in one instance already proved, it hat the statements tin the other•side weft fallacious, 'therefore let the House • no longer::fest on exagger ated statements on the one hand, -or false construe ,lion or defective information eientalte-obthet, but lel. the Hotise see the fans as.ilaey really were. -Mr. - *Caeatenea quoted from.the.lsitibtlaPainphlet another. part of- the Speech of:the AT-coatNay-GENERAL of 'rebind; for the purpose -of showing that the Insur— redion of the 231 of July was the consequence of a preconcerted conspiracy ; it.was. a plan instigated by treason, by pe.rsems united together by one coin:- min !bond - Of crimes, ,and Insurrection was the con sequence of their milted efforts. But whatever might be the degree of danger on the 23d of Joly, it. was true that precaution had been taken in ahun direce tine that day. ,He ~should not, delay the blouse by giving the Clerk the trouble of reading the Motion, but he believed it referred only to trans-affirms previous to and on the 23d of July. But his Noble Friend hadsaid it was a very dark night on the zad of July*a very dark night indeed. Now if the question had not been, whether G orern !tient were prepared, but whether their preparatioos: were well executed that night, the dafkness of the - night; or the-difficulties of wind and ; weather, would be an excuse as far as it would go; but although the darkness of the, night prevented • Ministers from seeing, iecoulebnot .have prevented them from fore:te e ing. iele did not see why the-datleness of that night should have made Ministers blind previous to that time, and for a great• while, at least a week previous to that - time ; and- he could not help ob serving further, that- if the darkness was so great that it was impossible to know what passed that night, yet his Noble Friend had stated that the number of Rebels in the street that night. was 80. Hew that could be ascertained when -it was . too dark to set any thing, was beyond his comprehenSion. The effect of this darkness was singular—it made men blind before it happened,and enabled them to see during its continuance. But in point of fad he would ask, whether the Insurrection was so contemptible as had been stated, and•made only by a contemptible mob in Dublin ? He apprehended not ; there was an High Au• hority, an HighlVlember: of the Irish Govern ment, which stated it to be an Insurredion of whole Classes of Rebels, by which Authority ,(that, of theLoid Chancellor of Ireland, as we understood), it wa's made an imputation against three-fourths of the People of Ireland, that they had chosen and Furnished their quota of these Rebels ;—that was, that three-fourths of the People of Ireland had fur. niched their quota of eighty men, since that was the Whule number, according to the statement of his Noble Friend. All the Catholics were by that 'same High Authority implicated in this Rebellion, and Thad their. share of the guilt imputed to them.— Mr. CANNING said, that the Document to which 'he was now referring he had read with shame and ,iodignation, more than he had felt at any other he -had seen in the whole course of that unfortunate mat .ter altogether. His Noble Friend had tried to throw "oblivion over former differences in that distraded -Count-ry. . Ministers,• indeed, ought •to take care, - as much as in them lay,, that .no ancient differences ,should he revived; that noflames.of,old animosities -should he re-kindled : if , that , was;the policy, as he was sure it was - the - duty of Government, ill had that end been endeavoured to be accomplished. 'Good Gud 1 .that in the . loth century there should be found a man of great talents, fitted for great good in a State;. bf great learning too, but that which he tied li"ely'disPlayeda• he- 'could almost have wished that nob Ody had..it now, for he had hoped it had been buried at least a century-ago ;—that . this learn.' ed person should fill the office of a great Legislator, •andethe highest as,- a legal Magistrate, and that he. should be appointed to preside in the place where that antiquated doarine could do effedual mischief., He, did not say it was' a 'fault, but it certainly was, a great misfortune that, such oerson, with such , sentiment*,- should be placed in such a station. He could 'not think it likely that Ireland should be tranquil. 'He could not think it likely that these pidures of quietness, contentment, and happiness, which had been so gratuitously af forded. to the liouie, and so diligently laid before it, that the Rebellion was at an end for ever—that the principle, on which it was fomented was de stroyed--that Ireland was, by' the rooting out of prejudices, become one body of harmony in'tetbpee and united in objet : He could entertain no hopes of_this_nature, if the policy Ans. to he that which he had just alluded to. He was not bringing that torwhich this policy related, now before the House : He •iioulcl give Grivernmeot credit •for -their inten tion to do away all animosity in Ireland ; but when he saw a 'Minister of the - G-overnment there, the highesrin legal authority, he did not say that this was to be considered; 'nor did he state it as a fire. brand which threatened the Country with destruc. tion, but he did state, that great Officer cis eejoying the full confidence and 'a great portion of the power of GoVertimerit, and whether he was the intended vehicle of publishing such sentiments as those of Government, he did not know, yet ,it had all the effed'of design, and he could not help looking upon the publication of such-sentiments a's conveying 'to the Public the animus of Government. Whether these sentiments were -really the sentiments of the Government, or no, he would. not pretend, to sayi but the grearCharader ti; which he had alluded was a Member of the Irish Government, and the Go vernment in which such a mind predominated —that was to say, a mind governed by such principles as had been published by that great Person, had great influence, where such a spirit presided; and' where such a spirit ruled, and such opinions were ale rished, the Government, influenced by it, he was sure, could not be conciliating, nor agree able, nor could hold forth any prosped of com fort, to say nothing of happiness,. to the Irish people ; a Government which permitted itself to cherish such sentiments, discovered an animus that afforded no comfort to those by whom it was governed ; it was an imprudent Government, and very ill adapted for even the safety of the Public. Mr. CANN INC then went over the manner it, which the affairs of Ireland had beer., as he contended, negletted preview to and on the 23d Of July.' He ahledged that the negligence of Government was so zreat as not to keep on their stations the must .portant Offiz'ets of state proriens to Insurrec tion. Mr." ,WICKRAM, a Gcntieman.who'frorn his station and talents. might have:rendered - essential service, to Irelarrd at the ti - ne of - 4.nsurre4ion, had nqt been desired to remlin_on.bis post . , but _was .. .on an excursion of pleasure, and qtually in York- Olire, when the first intelligence reached, him of the •Inaurreftion in Ireland ; but, however, this Gentle_ 'man was absolved • entirely from blame upon this occasion ; that only made the. accusation the more 'weighty on the few who ought to bear it, and no considelation of. the weight of personal responsibi lity on any body .should !induce the House to negleet its duty, which he apprehended it would do if it de clined entering-into this Inquiry. ile saw no in convenience likely to arise - from, this . .inyestigation tha t' was to . h7. put into the scale and weighed against the public, benefit likely to result from it. He had great esteem* for his Noble Friend, and. an high !opinion of his. talents and . abilties, but upon this occasion he was so entirely dissatisfied with his arguments that he should vote for the present Motion. Mr. ARcIIDALE, opposed the Motion, and, de. fended the Irish Government : he , ; treated the In. surredion as .a thing not at all probable to have happened as it did, although there.was in it nothing extraordinary, except the, regretted death of the venerable Chief Justice --that was a foul murder, but yet foul as it was, there was no necessity to exaggerate the account of circumstances which ac companied it, and which he apprehended to he done for the pUrpOse olattaching blame to Ministers. If this Debate took the turn he wished it to.take, it might be of advantage to the Empire. He saw no reason for .blamiog Government for not foreseeing what had happened, for nobody could have guessed at it beforehand ; 'neither was it formidable when it did happen, with the exception of the death of Lord Kilwarden, which gave a colouring to the whole transaaion which would otherwise have been ; but the- contemptible effort of a few deluded men, half armed and half drunk. There was nothing in this case to make it a fit subject for the inquiry of a Committee of,the whole House. - He considered the Riots in this Metropolis, in June 1780 infinitely more serious and formidable than the. Insurrectionr in Dublin on -the z.3d of July last ; and yet although the Parliament:of this Country was then sitting, 'no Committee of the whole House „was voted to take the subject into consideration. 'He justified what he had said on a former occasion, relative to the general disposition of the People, of Ireland, whielt ,was, that if the Enemy should land there, all the good illojeCis would bury all differences of opinion, fur the purpostofopposing that Enemy ; and all the Jacobins wouldbe against him from disappointment. regard to what had been said, upon the doc. trine lately published in Ireland-, there was no doubt that Ileowas a great and eminent character, and in the Court of Chancery his authority, was indisputable ; but it was not the highest in Government, in- point of Politics, and be was of opinion that Government was not responsible for the opinions of legal charac e ters, further" than they treated of legal subjects ; they, were of no weight with him upon political subjects, nor had he any difficulty in saying, that in his opinion judicial charaCters never ought to have been blended with politicai ones. .For although they were justly eminent fur their judicial decisions, they were seldom very estimable for their po, litical sentiments. Judicial charaChrs were in their sphere while they administered justice and dispens ed equity ; but they were generally out ef their element, when they endeavoured to mix their sen timents of politics iij Executive Government. Mr. CANNING explained. Mr. DAWSJN, in a speech of considerable length, defended the Government of Ireland, of the propriety of whose proceedings he took the silence of all the Irish Members to. be conclusive evidence, for he did not know that- the diffidence of his Coun trymen was,ao proverbial that they could not mus ter up confidence enough to say that they were dis satisfied when they. had serious reason to complain. They were, however, as far : as complaint, against their Government was to be considered, absolotely silent. He objected to this Motion on two grounds : first, if it was. intended as a measure to affect the whole Administration of both.. Countries, it was unfair, because it was indiredt and came in as it were sideways, ; or by side—wind ; .whereas it ought to be avowed at once, that Members-might be really acquainted ,with the true object : otherwise it would, be. attacking. the Administration. of England in the name of the people of Ireland, an use to which the people of that Country would not consent to lend ,themsel v es. If it was merely ;an attack on the Administration-, of Ireland, he was of "opinion there. was no just, foundation for,it ; on the - coo. trary, he thought that . the AdMioistration of Lord klaotowtcka (which be praised very high-, ly), was of great advantage to Ireland, acrd beneficial to the whole Empire. He did ,not see . any reason whatever for blaming the Irish Admi nistration for not foreseeirig - :the Josurrection in Dublin. He admitted that Administration was sure prized on that occasion. He defended them on the ground of that Insurredion being a surprize on them. It, was not only a surprize on. Administra tion, but it was a suryrize on the Rebels them selves. Administration could .not ..foresee it ; the Rebels did not foresee it until Within a few hours of its happening : it broke out on the sudden, long before it was at first intended it should have broken out : , it was.a premature birth of Insorrediona—an abortion of a Rebellion, which no Doter could be prepared to deliver. fle could not help lay. ing great stress on the circumstance., that al. though the mismanagement of the Irish Governtnent was supposed to he so great upon this occasion„ yet that out of the too Members who have the honour to represent Ireland, .not one of them (except the Right Hon. Gentleman Mr. CANN ING), who by his speech he discovered to be his Countryman, had so much as uttered one syllable of complaint. This to him was .really conclusive evidence there was no substantial foundation for the complaints which had been exhibited. If there had been an Insurrection in Wolverhampton, the sentiments of the Honour— able Baronet would have, and deservedly, more v. eight than all those of the Irish Members toge ther. He claimed something of the bilflle sort of principle .ort, behalf of his Countrymen, on a question so peculiarly interesting to them. He thought that , a ~ ~`l Gendemtn on the other site: of theFlousc.,'wtrt braught_ into a dilemma by this ; 'for they '- must establish, either that they had attacked an Ad, ministration' which c3escrved prose ins e4l'Of cens or prove that the inticiry had been r,MothtA` by the House; whiClf they could never faat • oftheeae were all diseldsed. in the'Dehate. Ht . dwelt on the great iricoti'veniene which he . 'app re_,. tt hendewOuld 'result to Ireland, if this Inquiry should be instituted, for it would take aw.ly Adrni'ni:.: stration which had been of 'infinite a..ivantige to :at a time when it was so essential to the lidiol6 Empire that, those advantages should'btcontinued: He observed, that he had no concern Whatever with any part of Administration ;‘ he had . spPken ex , etly as he felt, and he hoped that some things he had submitted had the effcl he intended them to have. Lord TEMPLE suppntred the Motion for an In. piiry, and entered muckat l::rge into - the subjea, in which lie censured the Administration both of this Country' and of Ireland, for what appeared to him. tip be not only incapacity, but also - for very culpable negligence ; . .the instances of Which be de tailed . minufely, and concluded with givint; ''is hearty . assent to the Motion, for which, he said, Ministers themselves, if they were sincere in their professions of eagerness ro have their Conrtuft in this matter investigated, ought io be l .ratetttl to the Hon. Baronet who had brought the subjeft forward, thereby affording them an opportunity of submitting their conduit to the Investigatii.in of a Committee of that House.. G enern ITAR LETO N said, that lie went to Ire. 1 1 land in;a military capacity, in consequence of ors. - ders received from Government, but not until some days after the explosion had taken place. He had conversed with a variety of . persons in that Conn. try, and the general ins ession was, that the Go vernment had been taken by surprize. Let them go to inquiry, and then they would find whether his information was tight or nor. With respect to the Gentleman who held the office of Secretary of State in Ireland (Mr, WlcktiAm) 'lie did not arrive in Dublin until Some days after the Insurreelion, and. so. little was he appri-,-,A of what was like!) , to happen, that he made his return a ;tour, of pleasure, 6:R:wrist:wee_ which, amongst. others, was a proot that the Govern ment were. surprized, as it would naturally be supposed that they would send notice of any ex_ petted event : of that nature to the Secretary of St at e, The condua of Mr. Wickham, however, in his official. situation,. he viewed with the greatest re_ sped and esteem. The present subject had been viewed. as a matter of police ; but what should they, think of Sir Richard Ford if he gave rio in formation to dovernment of a Rebel Dep&' a; Charing.cross, and equally near to the seat of Go. vernment was, that at Dublin. If they took up the subject in - a military point .01 view, could they suppose that the Government ',ere not slarprized, when the very first Council of War upon the sub.. jest held by General Fox, the General, in retiring home, encountered the Rebelz, and one of them was indebted for his safety to a good pair of legs, whilst another was forced to take refuge in the Old Man's Hospital ? The Noble Lord 16,1 stated the "amount the Capital at 400 0 , and „ 0 ( t he Troops proteding had said that the Bank would not fail to be.proted ed on account of its situation, but the question was, .how thAr_Fo'rce- was distribute :_ he Lad conversed with , several Officers upon this, subjeo, and he had learnt ,that in searching fOr the main body of Regiment, it was found to consist Of only sixteen men. It had been said that it was merely an in surreCtion of the mob .of Dublin ; but from his in . formation, he learnt that the conspiracy had most extensive ramifications. There was also another _essential reason which induced him to vote for the inquiry; when he saw an Officer of distinguished merit like General Pox, recalled Withotit any reason being assigned, he ( thought that of itself was a , sufficient reason., why the inquiry should be gone into. ,Mr. Secretary YORKE said, that the Hon. 'Ge e neral having drawn his opinions from private con_ versation, his statements were to be considered as nothing more than hearsay. As it was not his intention, however, to oppose the Motion, being convinced that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was anxious that his condud. should be investigated, he should confine himself to a detail of fads. The Hon. General had alluded to the recall of General Fox ; he dittnot know,thatGeneral.FoN had been recalled, and the fad was, fie believed, that the Hon. General resigned. A coolnesS had raken plaCe between him and the Lord Lieutenant, which 'tn.. de 6 of one* of them necessary. His had- u n d erta ke n the Government of when it was thought neces- Nrebd. Ireland, o : Rli:edel.a at Relation recall oa ntime nary to conciliate, without at the same' time too hastily entertaining an idea that the disorders of that Country were completely healed,. Under these circumstances, the Lord Lieutenant could hardly be blamed for not receiving information from every quarter .too greedily. The Irish Government re.. eeived information in the Spring, that several per sons who had been banished front Ireland for trea, son4kle crimes had returned. After the intelligence of His Majesty's Message of the Bth of March had been received in Ireland, the Government of that Country likewise received information of certain designs being in agitation, but the general state of Ireland seemed at the saniz time to be much im. proved. The Irish Government, however, in con, segvence of the information it had received, added to the probable designs of the Enemy, conceived it necessary to suggest to the Go. vernment here of su,:unding the Habeas Corpus. Ad. The Government here thinking ic.was neces sary to..have some stronger fads to ground a mea. sure of that nature, declined to propose it. In this situation of affairs Gen. Fox arrived in Ireland, on therst of June, and had various conversations with the Government upon the state of the Country,..,, Nothing was however satisfaftorily known at that period upon the subjeft, except with resped to the county of Kildare, where a rebellious spirit prevail, ed, which was thought so threatening on the rzzli of June, it was recommended to send Troops into several towns .of that county in or.. der to repress that spirit. Nothing material occur_ red till the explosion in Ntrick-streer, which it had,, been said arose from. a Powder Mill, but the fad was, that two or three places were hired