The Sun. — London, England, 1801-03-19 00:00:00

R wisdom and all the qualities which tonstittite a great Magistrate, it - was not, ,therefore, to he taken for granted, that his .successor might not he ethinent'alsb, and:Government utast° be taken in an aggregate, as an - individual Government was not an individual but a Corporation—it was • . like the King; it never died. He liked to shew as much indulgence as could be given with safety to the people of Irelarid,..but. he did not altoge ther wish measures of that kind to . come from the Opposition side ",of the House ; every thing of i that quality ought at thii time to originate arid • -emanate frOm Government, because, .at this time the.people Of Ireland should be -taught to look lip - to . Government . as . the source whence. to expel indulgerities.. As to the idea of altering this Bill from whit it was before; be opposed that ; because . he thought it would. look 'as' if the Bill . was something .which the . Legislature wished to continue for a considerable, time, when in fats it 'was intended only. to be in force for three months, and surely for so short a time it was not well to ' - amend it ;` When a person had but • three-months to dwell in a -house, he did not think much about 'repairs; it was,better to take the thing as it was, - and let it die 'away, instead of making i; appear as a thing adopted by the Union Parliament as a - measure of 'their. Own to. be .continued for an indefinite , time. This reminded , him : of an oe_ . catterice which happened some time ago — He wanted a job coach and hOrses, • he went to a person -in the -habit of letting such articles, he looked at all the coaches and the horses which were to let, and .fixt upon the very. worst among them, - andlhe person who had them to let said he was surprized at the choice he had made, and said he had - many better ; on which the Hon. Member said, he knew that very well ; but had _ he chosen the best, they might pass for his own, which he was desirous they should not, whereas by chasing the worst; he Was . sure of obtaining his desire in one particular, namely, of shewirt at Once they were' a . job. ' He - es:included with assenting to the Bill,' and .to the' Clause which was now before the House, and dissented from • the Amendment of she-Hon. Gentleman. Mr. FaENcH.-aaid a few words 'in -,explana ' tion, as did also Mr. D. BROWN . Mr. GREY observed, that the - Noble Lord op_ posite to him (Lord CASTLER E . Apti)• had laid a treat deal of stress on' the inconvenience 'which, he said, 'would result from Itdopring the Amend ment to enlarge the number to constitute a Court_ Martial,_ because it. would take so many out of ;he Military service; but the Noble Lord would tecorldl,-- that not only ' were there abundant numbers of Regblars -in Ireland,. but that • also !here Vete Militia and Yeomanry Corps in abun. dance • that there was hardly a village in Ire land w hich was not full of theM, .so that - there would - tie n o:dif fi culty in fOrming•Coarti:Mar tial, without any injury whatever to the set ,s.ice. ' .. , . L 9rd CAST L E RE AGH said, that taking' all the Yetnithiy 'ilia Other - Forces to Uthich - the' lion. Gentleman alluded, -the difficulty 'would by no means be done away. The measure pro -. --posed by iht-Hon, Gentleman, that of increasing fie number to constitute a Court Martial, :could Mr lit- adopted ,Orisistently with the safety of Ireland. ‘ . . . - 'Here the Question was put on the . Amendment by Mr. GRE`li' and ,Strangers- were Or: 'drred -to withdraw.; during which, we under.: 'Stood,. the CoMmittee did not divide, but nega ti-ied the Amendment,, and-adopted -the original Clause'. When-Strangers were admitted, . . '-ltin.- GREY was concluding the words .of an Pinzentiment to one 'of the Clauses of, the • Bill, ivihich related to the - Certificate of the:Lord Lieu tnant to Courts , Of Justice in certain cases. ‘ 24 Dr. 4 A W KEN C E contended, that by making the'Certificare of the Lord Lieutenant 'conclusive tVidence, all responsibility was ' taken , raway e“. 4itely. - t-- ~ • . .- . r. Lard C .4STL ER EAGIT , was of .art, , mri,iiseLy ' different opinion . ; - and thought- that such a cir_ . cumstance- increased instetili -of dititii%ished the . sesponsibility . of the' - Executive Governme nt i n - ' this-iiisi: •- '- - ' 4 . .. : '.; - 7 „ • - : The Ante:anent was then put and negatived. Mr. D ,IiVSPN adverted to what he had throwmout on a- former occasion, when this Bill .Was discussed, namely, that thOse who were to .compose the Courts Martial to be held under the .authority of this Bill, ought. to be of the age of twenty-one. Under the. Mutiny Bill, the Noble. ..Lord who brought this measure forward, admit.. ted that Officers upon Courts Martial must be of the age of seventeen. A. person should, proper ly speaking, be seventeen before he was an Offs- .cer in the Army at all; but here there was no ,age stated.—The Noble Lord had neither, follow ed the model of the Common Law, nor the Mili tary Law of this Country in the framing of this Bill, in that part of it which related to the Offi cell of Whomthe Courts Martial should be com posed. The number of them was Scven,'of whom -four would be a majority, and capable of deciding, it was:therefore essential that they should be of full age-7---the whole seven should be of full age. They might, as the Bill stood, be exceptionable as witnesses 'in a cause in a Court of justice On ac count of their tender age, and certainly incompe tent as Jurors. I-k had then to ask.. the Committee this quesrion—“ Will yoU put the lives of Men in -4o tilt hands ofChildren 1" It might happen that the Whole .Seven of - these persons, thus authorised to dispose of thelives o£Men, might be all Children ; for, truth to .say, Children were 9fficers in the Army and in the Yeomanry Corps. :Thus, in f nts were to decide upon questions of .the Life . or ea - •tlitallreirftri-df lrefavrt - -:--feveistive , l os - tour of the United Parliament he hoped that would not be the case—it met. with no idea he had of either. justice or Com Mon S.cns. He had therefore framed. a Clause s -which, whatever Might be 'the fate of it, would recorcl . .!his,srntiments On this occasion,. and he should c4#.ll(igr' . to prevail on the ComMittve to aiiopt it, for, without adopt ing it, the Committee woula"uot do 'what he thcitivlit •ought,to be done. Theie Officers whci night.. ryet t heitS4yre: tittoge of, ee yen t e.orty—wOuLa not be at to manage. their owti concerns, in . the civil affairi of life ; —ifithey were P-not fit to may nag their own Vrivaid- ! conettnii:Attsy, kr, , :tre; surely, 119 t fit to sil_on the Ljves at Deaths cf their Felfolk-creatures. 'Helci - not :add a Word' to this state m ent of the'•,thirlg,:beeausene thing would' make: itetimee•forcibfe. He moved a Clause as follows Provided Jilwayi e that, no person shall be.deemed qualified to sit d any Court-Martial constituted under the atitho: thy of this Aa, 'who shall not have attained the age'of twenty-one years." , • ' The qu estion was put, and the House diVided, Poi- the litist: 17—Against it Mr. WHITBREAD then proceeded"to ob serve, that as this Biltdowellood, there was no limitation of punilhinent .; it took away all, law uponthe subjed wherever it came into operation, and therefore punishments unknown. to the Law of 'this Land, 'and even abhorrent' Run:lenity anti Civilization; might be infliaed under its thority, not that - he believed any Lord Unite.? want of 'lreland would ever' wish such a thing ; but it was not .to ihe 'probabli will of an indivi dual„ be. he who he might, but to the 'power "Of Individuals., that 'the House 'of Commons ought to aired its attention. The Bill stated the pu nishment of Death ] or otherwise, as such C9tirts.- Martial fhoUld dired: under this Power a Court.: Martial, instead of directing a man to be ex ecuted on the spot, - beyond which no punish ment ought to go, whatever be the crime, might put • a - man 'to the - tortare, .. for • these things had been done in the late - Rebellion ; And they were not only iintliCated by insinuation, but broadly - jastifitti by the first' Law Officer of the . CrOwn in Ireland, in' a Speech delivered by him, in the House of Lords, and afterwards published under his authority, at least, as he understood it, for it had been repeatedly taken and treated in that charader, and never . disavowed. Under these impressions, Mr. WHITBREAD said, ' he could not do otherwi se than propose a Clause for the purpose of providing, " that nothing in this ACit. should extend,. or be construed to ex, tend, to empower any Court to be held under its authority, to' inflid any punishment that was not now, provided, either by. the Common or Statute Law, and recognised now in the ordina ry procedure of our Courts of Justice." Lord C ASTL I , ?E AGH said, fie had occasion to trouble' the Hotise s o often, : that he could not offer himselfWithohi.firsi asking 'for the indulgence of the Committee. The Aniendinent now yroposed by the Hon: Gentleman, had as little connexion with the real spirit of the Bill now before the Corn mittee, as much of the speaking which had taken place to-night had.- In -the first place, he_would alledge again, what he had been, under the neces sity of alledging on former occasions, in answer to unfounded insinuations, .tbat there never was any thingelone under the - authority of the Aft, of which the Bill before the Committee was oily a continuance, Whicli 'Was not known - to the ' Laws of the .Reatin.—Nor could any punishment beine flided under this Bill, of a.seVerer nature than was already known 'to the Laws and, there fore, the objedions of the liOn. Gentle Man did not, in sub,:artee, apply to the 'Bill ; anefthat would make him resist this Motion, because it conveyed an unhandsome insinuation against Go verment, as if something had been done, or suspeCtect might -be 'done, Which the Law of the Land would not justify, for which there was - not the, least fotinditihn. But he •had ano ther. Motive now for chiming the attention df the'. CoMmittee. Insinuations had been thrown out, as if Torture, had been used in Ireland, under the authority,. or with the approbation and con nivance of Government. It - had been stated; that a'NOble - Lord, high in office,. had justified' such pritaiees. The exalted character of Lord. CLAR for I* was the Noble Lord alluded to, Was of it self a. refutation of that assertion; and an answer' to any charge that could be . exhibited against, him. But it the Committee would take the trou ble °hooking at the Speech alluded to, as ~delie vered liy ., that Noble Lord,, they would 'see that no part: of it warranted the commentary made union it by tJte , Hon. Gentleman.—What was.the history of . that Speech A Noble Lord, the Earl of i\4o tita, made a. Motion in the House of Peers in Ireland, and prefaced it by a Speech in which he made, certain 'charges against the Executive ,Government, with having' employed means be- pond the necessity of the case,' and . with bar barity ,in certain , instances'; and he moved an Address to the Crown, for the purpoSe of adopting certain conciliatory measuises, with the discOntented.—What were the farts upon that occasion ?—There was a Repoit of a :Com e mittee upon that 'occasion, whO had diligently inquired into the circtimstances which made the subjea of that Motion ; that Report , was now upon the Table of the 'ouse of. Commons ; by whieh,it appears -that in the summer` when this debate took place, there was an organized. Rebel lion inireland, particulaily.iri Ulster, Where the Rebels had sworn to co-operate with the French, ,and wholly overturn the G overnment of that Coun try, and cad a total separation of Great e l3ri ta in and Ireland; and it appeared that nothing but the mea sures which were then adopted,prevented that in tention from being carried into effect. It appeared also by the same Report of the same Committee, that the Provisional Committee of. Ulster, as, they Called themselves, the ltehels ' sat on the same day that the Noble Earl made his speech and moved for conciliatory measures ; the Rebels .had de'clated that nothing but a Republic and a OW separation from England would satisfy them; and to the honour of that Noble Earl, the Rebels declared, that' notwithstanding his Speech, he was at heart as great a Tyrant as Lord ELAR E, or any other person belonging to tilts Go vernment of Ireland, only he - was a little more Cunning, The ,Lord ,Chancellor of Ireland -an swered the Speech of.the Earl of MOIR A upon that occasion ; •he visited to examine into fads upon it,.,which produced' among others, that of a search' for Arrive hidden by the Rebels ; and, if in the course ( of such a search any iediViduals' had ..departed a little from the ordinary course of pro ceeding, it would notehave been matter of won der, •foretheseaech tolc effeEtual might, perhaps, have made that unavoidable • therefore, if two or three cases of• excess' occurred, he presumed that ' watilci. not-be eirei* surtitlittig to.t6 Committee he had notes' the ho cur of addressing: But did she Noble and te - arned Lord whOse Speech . tuid r jnen alludedTto justify - ...T.orture to prodnee ? No, the reverse arose out of d argument of that Noble and .3 earned Lard. What did LOrd Ci..4..R5, say on that oeCasion ?, A peySorl of the n;lrr.:. of ,Shaw :was ,c:herged with making pikes for ,the;Rcbels, e ,114..was a blacksmith--he w'as Lpprehended by Loyalists = :they Tut . a rope, around his neck and they, threatened. him I. [‘ Hear! Rear !" was vociferizied on the arber CAsTL•ER E :vs; H desire'd Gentlemen . • not to go, on so fast—Lhey put a .rope over a beam anus what did they do I Did they strangle him ? No ; and the 'Noble Lord in "that :Speech . said, they did not effea their purpose. The whole amounted then to this—these men threat - ened, to strangle this blacksmith; with a v iew of making hiM declare where the. pikes - :Were. He was carried to . Downpatrick, and there a Colonel of a Regiment, 'of his own Inthbrity, certainly without a Court-Martial, -ordered the man a certain punishine;nt. Whether that was advisable or not, was a point to, Le considered hereafter,,but there was certainly no Torture in' it, for it was a summary punishment, not infliaed to induce the man to confess, but to chastise him fofKetime; at *least that w as the view in which it was in fl ided. : .Whether this ,was done by a competent or inconipetent authoriry, was another thing ; certainly it was not infliaed in the way of Torture, namely, in the way ofcompellincr. the ' man to confess, for that was the true charact er of Torture, and he apprehended that the Honourable Gentleman would'not dispute with him this de finition of Torture ; nor would the Honourable G.eictlemari argue, that it was a prindiple-un known to our Law, that a man should,. after a sentence was pronounced up On him, receive a slighter punishment ' than ,others ra;ght haye met with-for the same' otence, but that they had not the same favourable circumstances 'to plead . in their. behalf as he might have. Lord CLA RE said, on that occasion, that during the AMerican War he had felt hiMself authorised to inflict pu nislunentieYen of death, without a Cour t-Nlartial ; and he instanced the case of Colonel HAYNES, and another Case in which the puniSlunent of death had been inflifled.without a Court-Martial, and my Lord CLARE -made a-• comparison between th'me.twO'cises,• and that of ;this blacksmith: — That •was the whole of the .substance, ora.that head, ,of the Speech of Lord: CLARE, n hid had been , so often alluded to and gutted; as a ptOdf that .. he, being `- so 'considerable •••4 Member in the Government-of Ireland,, had in culpated,t4t Government in the charge of giv _ ihg countenance 'to- Torture. 'The Noble and Learned Lord certainly admitted the fad, that an order .was made, .in a summary nianneti,, to punish this man, but . was , that any piing like de fending the Pradice of Torture I—Nothing like it, 'for the NOble and Learned Lord put it only by way of coriyai lbw) with other cases, and so far was he from sheaving any disposition to sup port Torture, that he lamented the very thing that had happened. That was the *hole extent and the fun-meaning of the Speech of Lord CLARE upon that subject, and which had been so often spoted as a proof that he had, declared himself an Ad vocate for .lortUre, whereas; the words had no such inenning,, and if the Officer who ordered this pUnishment on this blacksmith, afted hastily and rashly, and that ~my Lord CLARE thought the conduct of that Office; milder, as most undoubted ly it was, than that of the Officers in 'the Ameri can War—in short, if this ease ,was pr o ved to the full extent to' which the lbn. Gentleman stated it, that would be so far from making out a charge against the ExecutLve Government for giving countenance . to ,a system 'of Tcirtirre, . that it would' not prove that Government had tided altogether unwisely or imprudently. The case hat been much exaggerated in statement On more occasions than one; but even with all its exag geration, it didnOt amount to any countenance of Torture by His Majesty's Ministers ; nor did it Support any_ charge whatever against Lord CLARE ; for .by . that Speech, as he UnderStOod it, that . Noble and Learned Lord did not ap prove of what Was done in the .case of this 'black. smith as a regular proceeding, but stated, it Was much less severe ,than other cases which occurred in the• American War.—Here Lord CASTLER'EAGH proceeded to state . his dislike of the system of corporal punishments . altogether, and to.state that nothing - could justify them but, the necessity of the case, for which they were in liided ; and then his Lordship passed from that subjed to a recapitulation of the reasons why certain 11 , (1 of ctucaty had been exercised on the *Rebels at one time in Ireland—lc arose from the uppleheriilon On the part of the Loyal, that they had no other means to proted themselvesin per son or in property. nut, the moment the I,l l ,Tartial LaW Bill (of which this only was the continuance foe three months) passed, all apprehensions of Loyal subsided instantly, and there ended all these. acts of cruelty, for then they .were satisfied that ;they would be proteded by Gwiernment, and had no more occasion. to take protedion into their own hands; so that this was a Bill to pievent cruelty, instead of being a pleasure of tyranny ; not, was there any thing in it that was hostile to, but, on the contrary, -it was . intended to prciteel, the MuniCipal rities. Having gone over this ground, his Lord.. ship,returned to the case as it stood upon the declaration of Lord CLARE, so often referred to, the whole of which he apprehended to amount to this, and to no more..—that these Officers threat,. ened to strangle this blacksmith, but that they did not do so; that the. Noble and Learned Lord did not approve of what was done. Headmitted the fad, btit did not justify it: That there -were cases, in modern; times, which were much more, severe, and that the , evils arising .Out of such crimes as this man 'had been stated' to he guilty ofi were very great ; from no pair of Which did it appear, that the .Noble ,and Learned Lord was an advo cate :for cruel punishments. It was unnecessary for him to.say,•hOw repugnant such a praaice ,was to the natural temper of sthat Nobleman, and how in. comiiatible such principles. and praet the ligfitA of his undere.tandifig ; -.„ him, knew - that to be tli^ case. Hu'onl', ity pur.sue with as little rigour as the nature of zhin,gx eVotild'odiniti a system which could preserve chi' tranquillity of Ireland, for he - had - nothing but th - ‘‘%!lfare of his Cduntry at heart. That-wel fare, his Lordship Said, - depended much an, the fate of the Dill now b e f ore t h e C omm i tt e e, f o r if individuals lbw-0 they were to be proteaed; they 'would 'be' tfalpuil ;.; hut if they found: that - Government was not to be armed with the power, as well as actuated. by the . in clination to protect them, they Would again na turally rake their protection, into their own hands, and that 'would give birth ag=ain to those scenes-which had already been so much deplore& His Lordship concluded with giving' his- dissent from the Clause proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. I : PWITBREdD ,with considerable . warmth, and insisted that he had put no other thart aright interpretation on the Speech of LordCt, AK Ej and no other than a .right interpretation on the condud of thexecutiveGoveriunentin Ireland,- in giving countenance to a system of Torture ; to support Which interpretation he qUot4ed several passages from the Pamphlet; said to be the Speech of Urd C..1. - 9.R E, and which he said he'ondersto:xl to be authentic ; and - he quotecralso die case of ati individual, *ho he said nad been most inamotis ly treated by the Sheriff a a Cottiry, and who brought an - Aition for treatment, arid obi rained a verdict, which verd;.el was approved of by r.ll the judges' ‘ of Ireland ; but whet% Government found there was no means to 1 „w„ • _ _ _ _ proteel this Sherid: by Law; they brought in, and caused to be passed; a Bill of general Indemnity' to persons who had exceeded the authority given' by LaW.—These things,- he maintained, proved that Government had given countenance to Tor- . ttire in. Irelaild. Mr. CLAUDIUS BERESFORD rose td oppose the Clause.- 4 1-1e said, th.at the hearts of Gentlemen may bleed for the,People of Iceland; and lament the' severities which haVe been exer cised on them,. but tteir hearts earthot feel more' on this subjeEt than those havedone who saw the necessity of these s•.fteities infliaed, and felt themselves under the' necessity of 'inflicting them ; and did they know as well, and had they 'felt as much the calamities at id the sufferings to which the Gentlemen of 'lreland were subjecled in the course of 'the Rebellion, as he and many • 'Others, they would spare some 'of their compas iBil for the People on whOin it was'found neces. sary to these severies; and bestow it upon those Gentlemen whose lives - had' been 'endanger.: ed, who had been threatened with assassination, and whose property'had been plundered --and deg stroyed. - That such severities . - as had beep charged by some Hon. Gentlemen -to have been exercised, had really been exercised in many cases ; that punishMents had been inflieted for the purpose of extorting • confessions from those who were suspqted' of concealing arms,' he ivould not, and it would be 'unmatay in to deny. He would acknowledge that many Country Gentlemen; whOst'lives and property were threatened, who, perha.p, had reason to apprehend that they might be assassinated in the ensuing night, had inflicted such severities in or:. der to discover the private deposits of an ups, and thus ,to prevent or frustrate the daigns which they knew to be harboured against them. This, hoWever; was certsinly not authorized by the Covet...me:it ; licit he 'would venture to assert, that in such cireumstintes as these Gentlemen Were platted, their corid'ua .was perfeetly jus t • HORPIOUSE said,. he Conl3 conceive no • stronger proot of ;he necessity of introducing the Clause moved for by his Hon. Friend 'into the ' Bill, than.the.Speech of the HOn. Gentleman who 'spoke last. Hellas openly confessed *hat Tor:. lure, had - been inflicted for the purpose of extort:. ing confessions . ; and he has openly asserted, that circumstances. were such as to justify it. He would, on the other hind, hazard an assertion, that no cirewnstances, of whatever nature, can justify such a condul, which he would evet aver to be equally cruel, inconsistent with sound - po_ licy, with common sense, and with the feelings of Justice and Humanity. The onlyarkument by which this Clause had been opposed, was one most haCkneyed in the House, and one taieh, Otis opinioii, was not only , most fidlacious, but most subversive of the principles of the Consti, tution-It is said, the Lord Lieutenant' of Ire land has never abused the powers et;ornmitted to him by this Bill as it stands, therefore the House ought to have confidence 'in the Government Ireland, .that it will nor abuse than, and leave it to the responsibility of the'Government. But if this ,argument from confidence and responsibility is thus conclusive, why are there 'any restridions in this Bill ?—Why are there any checks or re_ straints imposed on flu: Executive Power ?—Why is the 'nunitier of which the Courts-Martial must be coMposed, increased to : Seven.? He could see no reason why the Clause should not be adopted ; and on the• other' hand, the 'Speech of the lion.' Gentleman who spoke last, afforded the strongest proof of its neceisity. • • Al r, J. C. BERESFOil:explained : . The SOLICITOR GENERAL opposed the Amendment, as .being tbtally ur . . - , - 4 cessary, and being worse than unnecess-ary, as implying in. it:. self, whatever may be the views of those who sup pot it, a censure on the manner in ,whiolt the powers granted by this Bill have been formerly exercised .by the Government of Ireland.. Upon the same principle on 'which it is gledged to , necessary to add this Clause to this Bill, hi <on turided" that it would be necessary to *Ada similar ' C:ause `to every Ad or Bill, Tiopowerini the in.. 11i6tion of a discretionary punt : hrnent ; for the words " By dea t h or otherVise,"' upon whi., : h the Clause, and, the supposed necessi t y, f or i t, are founded, can signify oiliji ) " By death, ?r any other lighter punishment thanalcath," any other punishment unknown to the Laiv: As to the severities Wkich have been exercised in • some cases in Ireland, lamented them as much . as any man ; but after bearing the statement of the circumstances; in which alone they were ex.