The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAR,LIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Jon. 25. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at Five o'clock. POOR-LAW. The Earl of STRADBROKE presented a petition from a place in Suffolk praying for an alteration in the law of settlement. The Duke of BUCCLEUCH presented a petition from the poor-law guardians of Leeds, in Yorkshire, praying 'for an alteration in the Poor Removal Act passed last session. SUGAR AND MOLASSES. The Earl of STRADBROKE presented a petition from the brewers of Bury St. Edmund's in favour of the measure for the admission of sugar and molasses into breweries. IRELAND. Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition signed by -nine Pears of Ireland, praying their Lordships to take into consideration the state of Ireland. CORN. LAWS AND NAVIGATION SUSPENSION BILLS. The Earl of CLARENDON moved the second reading of the Corn-laws and Navigation Suspension Bills. The Noble Lord entered into a brief statement of the causes which led her Majesty's Government to introduce these Pleasures. Great distress prevailed throughout the world, and the prices everywhere were so much on an equality, that the throwing off the 4s. duty which remained oa the importation of foreign corn was a measure which the circumstances of the ge neral famine, and the great emergency which had arisen in Ireland, rendered necessary. He deprecated the idea 'that the duty would go into the pockets of the dealers in corn ; but, even allowing that some portion of it did go in that manner, it did not furnish a sufficient reason why they should not try to alleviate 'the distress by endeavouring to enlarge the supplies. With respect to the navigation laws, he would trouble their Lordships with a few observations. Vessels arrived with a large quantity of grain at Marseilles. The Americans were taking up all the ships they could procure, and the consequence was the freight was considerably affected. They did not apprehend any great advantage from the removal of these laws, but they would have the satisfaction of thinking that they had done all in their power to miti gate the evils that at present existed. Lord BROUGHA.M would not, under the circum stances, make further objection. The Marquis of SALISBURY agreed with the Noble Lord opposite. The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL said, as these mea sures were not to be permanent, he should decidedly give them his support. The Bills then went through Committee, and were read a third time and passed. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he now rose for the purpose of submitting to their Lordships the motion of which he had given notice on a former occa sion, and in doing so he thought he should be wanting in respect both for their Lordships and of consideration for the unfortunate country itself, if he were not to lay before their Lordships a full statement of ths facts of the case. The Nehle Lord then proceeded to comment upon the magnitude of the calamity which 'had befallen Ireland, and said he should read to their Lordships a calculation which would show the immense loss sustained this year in Ireland. Now, taking the valuation of each acre of potatoes at 101., the total loss shown to have been sustained in Ireland by the late visitation amounted to 11,350,0001., while it was shown with equal clearness in the oat crop, the loss amounted to 4,660,000/., making a total deficit in the ordinary supply of food to the am .untof about 16,000,0001. sterling. The conduct of the landlords of Ireland had formed the subject of varied and strong opinions, but although exceptions might be taken to some, yet, within the last 10 years, there were others e ho had left no means untried to amehorete the condition of the country. Fault had bsen found with them for allowing the popu lation to be dependent upon such an uncertain and low description of food as potatoes ; but he thought this was not the most opportune time to discuss that question. It was as little appropria'e as finding fault after a calamitous fire with the sufferers, because their building was not erected with marble or Portland stone. If they had not been able by their own effin't to ward off so great a calamity, it vim equally true that no Government could prevent it. In considering this, the nature of this question ought never to be forgotten, that it was not a question of money, but one of food—'bod for a nation, which, whatever system might be adopted for its distribution, conla never hive been crested by any Government, yet that was just the existing necessity. But, supposing money could have remedied the evil, he asked how much would have been necessary? Suppose ten millions of money would have been sutliei. nt. But the money market was a market infinitcYy sensitive to demand, so that the effect would have been, as soon as the necessity of these ten millions had been heard of, that the very next day other purchasers would have rushed in, and the ten millions must have grown into 20 millions; and then again, the iecrea-ing demands, and the in creased price of money, into fork)/ millions. In fact, Government was , the worst agriculturist and the worst merchant and therefore increased obstacles always lay in its way in the ease of meeting such an emergency. The Noble Lord said he would refer their Lordships shortly to the measures which had been adopted by the Government at the beginning of last year, before speaking of meet sures which were now to be proposed to mitigate the present evil. The Government at that time, when the Labour rate Act was passed, did not anticipate so great a calamity as that which had fallen upon Ireland, and therefore the measures they had proposed were merely temporary, hoping they might have been able thereby to bridge over the difficulty into another year. The prin ciple of that Act was to unite profitable employment and poor relief; an object which was not by any means easy to be obtained. It was contemplated at that time to employ the poor only on work, which would prove to be permanently useful, and this was eff eted to a cer tain extent, and so far the result was beneficial. But a panic was stirred in the popular mind, fears and dread of the impending calamity grew mere pressing, and from that time the beneficial employment of the people failed. The panic that resulted when the extent of the distress became fully known was such that the people were reduced to a state of recklessness and de spair. Some idea of the extent of the machinery em ployed in administering relief may be formed from the following statement :—There were employed in carry ing out the provisions of the Labour-rate Ace 385 engineers and surveyors, 2,832 'cheque-clerks, 6,894 overseers, 132 assistant clerks, and 495 pay-clerk., making between eight and nine thousand individual , . Ile would ask them if, with such an immense number of persons, it was possible to exclude a great amount of abuse from the operation of that law ?—(Hear, hear). With respect to the B card of Works itself, he thought they should speak with the greatest respect, as he believed they had given the most undoubted proof of their efficieucy. This much, however, could nut be said of those whom they had occasion to employ ; but the emergency which arose put it out of their power to set otherwise. He had now brit fly stated what were the vices of the system, and the motives which influenced Government in advising those measures. lie did not feel surprised that applications were made that the Government advances should be applied for private purposes. They had concurred in the funds being applied in that manner, and he was therefore gratified to say that a very great amount of relief had been given by Mr. Lebouchere's letter, which act he trusted would be legalised by their Lordships. There were 930 relief committees established over the country, many of which had to some extent received relief from the Government. Much had been said about the Government vessels, in reference to which he wished to observe that the Admiralty could not interfere with the course of foreign trade, but with regard to the distribution of food, their efforts had been attended with the greatest success. There had been .15 of her Majesty's vessels employed in this manner, and before a week elapsed there would be five more. Lord M.OUNTCASHEL—WiII the Noble Lord have the goodness to state the amount of food which has been distributed in Ireland? The' Marquis of LANSDOWNE—The Noble Lord must see that his question was not relevant to the state ment he was then making, but he would refer to that on another occasion. The amount of tonnage of the vessels thus employed was 28,232 tons, and the steam-vessels employed were 8,373 horse-power. He bad also to state, though the details might appear insig nificant, that there had been no means omitted to meet the evil, and there had been every endeavour made te establish soup-kitchens, if means had been placed fur that purpose at the command of her Ma jesty's officers.—(Hear, hear.) The best workmen were monopolised by the system a6opted by the Government, to the detriment of private em ployers, and consequently, no doubt, great evils were generatel from di verting labour from that channel — cultivation of the land from which eh:Me they could expect to derive permanent improvement. The individual employer or proprietor was the one 'most interested, the one best calculated to employ labour most bene ficially in the country. He would now call attention to the plan of' Government. He alluded to the ; loan at 31 per cent. for twenty-two years to the proprietors of land in Ireland, and they were also to be empowered, if they did not wish to pay the principal, to pay for it six and half per cent, tor he would be enabled to pay it in any way most conve nient to themselves, and by that means relieve themselves at a trifling cost. It was dr9i nafee. but proposed to have extensive was not intended to interfere with pei sas it • • were a -e speculation in these works, for there would be griZeraany cases in which pri va t e i n di v id ua l s that in c It was proposedcarrying out these works. carrying out of certZ , l i iere it was essential to the proper proprietwoorks a power should be given to compel other le ssnese or other caus es who, either through care irnef.led to al co-operate or to bear their fair share of the to be assessed for the joint expenses. Tee c r t t e j a u:l result of e t' s e easures, in his opinion, would in Ireland but w ou ld bs not one proprietor o amount both himself if he so chose, to employ a conditio n , of labour in a manner profitable to vast and the labourer, and he did n o t t hi nk so t landed proprietary of Ireland as t o i mag i ne that, the these facilities, few indeed but w ou ld avail the'se:iptethemselvess h e t h e m immediately, or, at all ev ents, w i thin a short time, and thus, from one end of the country to the other, give employment to the mass of la bour, for which, in the ordinary modes, there Was no call. This measure was one of the most important which it could fall to the lot of her Majesty's Govern ment to bring before their Lordships, and it was one which had long occupied his deep and earnest attention. Pending the beneficial results to be I anticipated from these measures, there must ensue ! much scarcity, and even famine, among those who were infirm and without employment, and the I Government proposed that food should be distribute 1 amongst such persons, but it was determined that no person was to receive relief, except those who could not possibly be relieved in the workhouse, and in aiding those persons the establishment of soup kitchens, in the most destitute districts, was considered as the most effectual. Serious apprehensions were entertained with respect to the ensuing harvest, and from autho rities which he had before him, he was sorry to say those fears appeared but too well founded. This arose partly from an unaccountable indisposition on the part of the labourers to leave the public works for the farm, and partly from the inability of the small landholders to buy seed. Now the Government proposed to advance loans to the latter, at the rate of 3i per cent., to be secured upon the crop, and repaid at the end of the present year. The Noble Marquis then read extracts from a letter in support of the assertion as to the danger to be apprehended if immediate and effective means be not taken to aid in the spring planting; and said, the next subject to which he had to call their Lordships' atten tion was, the reclamation of waste 4lands. On this subject, aware as he was of its importance, still he thought the breadth of land alleged to be reclaimable was rather exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.) But considering the number of persons, who, from indi vidual observation, had noticed the extent of lands lying waste, which were capable of cultivation, it had been thought proper by the Government to introduce a measure, authorising a grant of money to be laid out on the reclamation and improvement of these lands. He admitted that such a measure ought to be introduced, and carried out with great caution—(Hear, hear, from Lord Brougham and the Opposition), and especially so, in order to prevent such land when reclaimed giving rise again to the cottier system.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") He said it would be for their Lordships to consider, when the subject was before them, whether this evil could be guarded against. The Government proposed to avoid that evil by reclaim iug the land and allotting it not into small but into large allotments, which would be rented under such coadi tions as would effectually prevent the incurrence of such an evil. Another topic which had caused much discus sion in the country, and been frequently before the attention of Parliament, was emigration. That was a subject which had lately occupied the serious consideration of , her Majesty's Govern ment, and he for one wished that some stimulus could be given to the people of these realms on that subject, but he felt the difficulty which impeded it. But he was of opinion that inducements might be offered the emigrant on the other side of the Atlantic, by offer ing him, when once transported across, a security for subsistence and employment. The Government had already experimented in this way, having applied a very small sum to the purpose of aiding emigrants when they went out, and the results had been most beneficial, as their Lordships would see from the correspondence which would be laid before them. It was the wish of the Government to increase that small sum, in order that every emigrant when he reached the land of his destina tion should have reached the end of his toil, and that he should have some security for obtaining such a situation and employment as he might desire. He said, perhaps, their Lordships would be surprised to hear the strong disposition which existed in this country and especially in Ireland in relation to emigration. It had been as certained that during the past year 32,000 had landed at Quebec and 970 at St. John's, two-thirds of whom were Irish. Lord STANLEY—The number for last year was 100,000. Lord GREY—It was about 110,000. Lord LANSDOWNE rose, and said he was obliged to the Noble Lord for the correction, but the number he was stating was a return for the colonies of England. He felt it was the duty of Government to encourage and to aid the emigration of the people. There was one other subject which had occupied the attention and partly the efforts of Government with respect to Ire land. He referred to the Fisheries. He said Govern ment had established on the north coast—the coast of Mayo and the neighbouring counties—three curing sta tions for poor fishermen who were not able to procure the same advantages for themselves. Government ' wished to continue these which had been attended with most beneficial effects, and to erect more round the west and south coasts ; and they proposed further granting a small loan to the land lords for the purchase of machinery, boats, and tackle, which loan; would be on the same terms as the others, viz.: at 3f per cent. and repayment Ti l e t e i he said, were the measures which Government propo4d immediately introducing before the attention of Parlia ment. He was aware that any attempt to make a per manent provision for the poor, was attended with the greatest difficulty, and though he considered that out door relief was rather an unsafe principle to introduce into Ireland, yet he thought there was a class of people to whom this might be extended under certain regula tions; he meant the sick, the aged, and the infirm. It was also considered that by extending the repayment of the first instalment of the money advanced by Government from next spring to next summer assizes, it would be exceedingly advantageous, and afford those who had applied for it ample time to make provision, There was one other subj e ct t o w hi c h h e wou ld refer to, he meant the enabling those landlords who had mortgages on their property to sell portions of their property to pay them off. That was the last of the measures which the Government contemplated to introduce. He had thus thought it necessary to put their Lordships fully into possession of the intentions of the Government ; but, much as he expected from them, be only regarded them as auxiliary to individual exertion. The Noble Lord concluded by proposing that copies of the corre spondence of the Board of Works and the Commissariat Department in Ireland should be laid upon the table of the House. Lord STANLEY would not trespass on the attention ' of their Lordships for more than a few minutes, fur after the able speech of the Noble Marquis, he more than ever adhered to the opinion he had already expressed, that any attempt to discus the measure proposed by her Ma jesty's Government would be premature. He thought that the course which had been pursued by her Majesty's Government, or rather the manner in which it had been proposed, was very impartial. There was no Member of their Lordships' House who did not feel the magni tude of the evil with which they had to deal. They should also look to the effect of this measure upon Ire I,nd, not only at the present moment, but as a remedy for the evils to which the country in future might be subjected, with a view to restore the proper tone of society in that country, and to ensure a more prosperous condition for the future. He fully concurred with the Noble Marquis in considering the interference of Par [lament last session in the Labour Rate Act as most iejurious. The consequence had been, that by that interference, employment had been turned solely to public in,tead of private works. It had been stated that eight or nine Government functionaries had le en appointed to superintend the employment, and for the efficient supervision of lo o ki ng a ft er th ese wor k s th ey had been intrusted with money to employ persons who were not provided with other labour, or who were auxiou• to ob:ain such employment. 'ln many cases this had operated most injuriously, and some days ago he had received a letter from a gentleman in Ireland, stating that under the Act of last year coreederable mischief had been effected, and that a heavy expenditure incurred unnecessarily, some of tha pay clerks and other officials having disap peared with the money.—(Hear, hear.) He concurred also with the Noble Marquis, that whatever might be the dangers and difficulties at the present moment, that it would be nothing compared to what might be expected to take place if there were au: abandonment of agricul ture in Ireland. At the same time, he did not take the same gloomy view of the extent of the evil complained of as the Noble Lord. It did appear that there was a groat remissness in the agriculture in Ireland. He would now take the liberty to express his strongest opinion that her Majesty's Govern ment would have done better if they L had sacrificed some of their opinions to political economy. He agreed fully with the Noble Marquis, that the pre sent was a question not of money but of food—(Hear, hear)—and provisions and not money should be sup plied by Government. The corn had got into the hands of petty local speculators, by whom it was purchased. New, that was not a description of persons with whom, in his opinion, Government should not interfere. He thought that there should be depots established throughout the country, in places that were remote or difficult of access, for the sale of corn at fair commer cial prices, and the effect would have been to withdraw the corn that was stored up, and enable the people to obtain it at fair bat remumerating prices. He re peated remunerating prices —not famine prices. He had been told that her Majesty's. Government had no right to interfere with such, but that night, to his utter astonishment, the Noble Marquis told the House that her Majesty's Government had already done this, and intended to carry this plan still further. It had been stated that there had been established 950 relief cone- mittees. His Noble Friend had said with respect to the employment of ships, that, what he (Lord Stanley) had contended for; and that her Majesty's ships of war and war steamers had been employed in carrying corn to the different ports. •Now all that was in consistent with the principle of non-interference. On the subject of emigration he entirely concurred with the Noble Marquis, that it was a subject surrounded with difficulties of no ordinary nature, and one with respect to which it would be hard to devise any plan likely to produce a tangible or practical effect on the po pulation. He felt that abuses were likely to arise from the proposed plan of advancing small sums of money to emigrants to British colonies, because many of those who most successfully emigrated had funds of their own; or were going out to meet friends or relatives, and the re sult of the proposed advance would be, that few, if any, would go out on their own resources. With respect to the question of poor-laws—decidedl i one of the most important of those under con sideration—he should not long detain their Lordships. The Noble Marquis had laid much stress upon the bene fits likely to accrue from the fact of enabling the land lords to relieve the incumbrances upon their property, by raising money in the way of a loan. Now this would be most advantageous, if there were a simularity of circumstances existing in Ireland to thosa prevail ing in England ; but, he regretted to say, that after a landlord had expended a sum of money upon the improvement of his tenant's property, he found it utterly impossible to get a due and fair increase of rent for s the in crease d va l ue o f t h e l an d . H e could state from and m hpi present t wledge th a t th ere were many l an dl or d s at t h e moment abntiinr4yto Ireland,imprwuhvoe their pos sepiss:je d per b t ot s h , the meansbut they found it impossible to do so with the slightest pros pect thought their Lord ships as to the bene fi cial effect of getting a tair retur n for their outlay, and there foreenabling the landlords t a said to be likely to arise from Ills ought not to be too sanguine o borrow money in the manner, proposed.o There existed in many and for the purposes, bolding under old parts of Ireland a class all the benefits leases and at low rents, wil t : ll r a head land from the land, to the total excluj lord, and who, for the inereaseonof rile:lthe promoted a large sad accumulatingtheir own profits, pauper Population upon the land, the head landlord having no control whatever over the mode. of-tillage, letting, or anything else connected with the management of the property. It might be said, and was said, that this state of things arose from improvidence. He would grant it. But then they must bear in mind that it was improvidence of a very ancient date. He alluded to these circumstances to show the great difficulty of guarding against what in England would be most easy of .consummation, and he hoped her Majesty's, Government would, before they threw. additional burdens on Irish property, take into consideration the propriety not only of imposing bur dens upon the head landlords, but also upon those per sons to whom he had just referred, and who received the whole benefits from the soil, and were the means of creating a surplus and pauper population. He said he would strongly advocate the advancement of capital on indisputable securities, for the purpose of being laid out on remunerative works ; he meant on railways. Considering the present state of Ireland, and the political insecuriry of the country, advances of money could not be mace in a more beneficial mode than this, where remuneration might cer tainly be looked for, and the persons on whose security the advances should be made would superintend the employment of it, and in a more efficient way than could be done by the Government. Such a measure, if it should be deemed practicable and desirable by her Ma jesty's Government, would more than any other call forth the capital of these railway companies, and at an earlier period than it was.likely olherwise to be the case. He suggested this measure to her Majesty's Govern ment as one most likely to call forth capital into profit able application in Ireland, at a moment when Go vernment was about to withdraw their relief by employ ment of the poor; and what was more, it was less likely to drain off labour from agricultural- employments. The Noble Lord said that he would offer no ooservations on the measures of the Government, and he might say what ho had already said before, that from the House generally, when the measures came before the House, they would not meet with any captious objections. Lord BROUGHAM said the Noble Lord who had just sat down had spoken of objections to the measures, he (Lord Brougham) for one, whatever might be his opinion of these measures, had a strong wish to know the amount of money comprehended by these measures, the number of millions proposed for the loans, the soup kitchens, and the out-door relief, and also the amount of loan that would be required, and the interest, and how that was to be found? whether the taxes which had been handed down from preceding Governments, heavy enough already, were not to be increased to meet this demand, and even the property-tax itself, whether it too would not be added ? He had heard that morn ing that the amount comprised in the Government Bills was 15,000,0001. He hoped that his Noble Friend would surely give him some idea of the amount. Ho agreed with his Noble Friend that the Government ought not to be corn merchants, agriculturists, or traders, but he went further, he thought they ought not to become loan contractors. That was a new capacity for a Government, it had generally been a debtor,' but it was to become a creditor now, and would be felt to be the harshest of creditors. • Why, the Government proposal was . to lend .money to -the Irish landlords at 31 per cent, interest ; but as soon as the Irishman heard that it was to be 6 per cent.- if the loan was to be sunk, and 31 per cent. if it was not to be sunk, and to continue 31 per cent. for ever and ever ; he was sure no loan would be taken on such terms. He was afraid that this, like many other' measures of the Go vernment, would prove a complete falure, as much so as the crops of last year, or rather as a more complete failure than that, he meant the Labour Rate Act. The Noble Lord went on to state that a friend of his rather than submit to having an improvement of his road, such as the Government staff would have made, im posed upon him—rather than have the road unmade, which was the word descriptive of the reality—he asked what would be the expense of the improvement, and on being told that it would amount to 1801., he immediately drew out a cheque for the amount and begged they would leave his. road alone. Such, in fact, was the ope ration of this Act—an Act which was as lurnbersome is its working details, as it was inefficient in the general result. Why, there was one functionary employed at present in the superintendence of the works for every 30 labourers. The staff of overseers was im mense, and yet it was so necessary to extend the works,` that the staff also must be increased; for without continual oversight, it was impossible to prevent jobbing in Ireland. On this subject I beg to ask the Government a question. Do they mean to erect a regular staff of bailiffs in order to carry out this design ? If they did, they would cause the continuance of one of the greatest evils that Ire land hasever suffered from, and property would be split out into still smaller quantities than it is now. He might recur to the old .distich that every rood of land should maintain its man, but in Ireland every half rood was made to maintain its man, and that was the consequence why that the money to be paid now would never satisfy the necessities of the country. It was said that the money now to be ,sent over would never meet the occasion, and his (Lo r d Brougham's) impression was that if they sent over 40,000,000/. the same would be the case. Indeed something like the latter sum had been suggested, and on the suggestion being made another worthy individual had immediately said, " Why, you have not asked half enough. They owe us 60,000,0001." It was said that Parliament intended to extend the poor-law to Ireland, and shut the door of the workhouse by granting out-door relief. Why, instead of shutting the door they were opening the door, and had already discovered that the poor would do anything rather than enter it, and if they carried out the system of out-door relief, as it seemed was proposed, they would commit one of the most fatal mistakes that could pos sibly occur; but he trusted that his Noble Friend had no such unhappy intention. See what the effects already were even to the extent at which out-door relief was already administered. Within five days, between the 16th and the 21st of this present January, as he had learned from an official friend of his, no less than 2,200 men, who were paupers from Ireland, 2,056 women, and 897 children, making a total of • more than 5,200 paupers, had been brought over from that country. And these were not brought, as some gentlemen had ingeniously supposed, in order that the owners of the steam vessels might realise a freight by taking them back again ; but one vessel alone, the Rover, from Sligo, had been paid 75/. in one day, for bringing over a f re i g ht f paupers. This was, indeed, a growing evil, for, in , five days, the detail of those who received casual relief at Liverpool, was truly frightful. On one day, Monday, the number was 18,095 ; on the next day it was 19,200 ; on Wednesday it was over 19,400; and on Thursday it was 22,095, who received relief in that one parish. Then it was evident that there was no exception to the sad rule that pestilence followed in the train of famine ; mit that the greatest exertion was not made by the wealthy and charitable who could 'administer to the wants and neces sities of these people ; he did not mean to say that it was, but the official friend of whom he had spoken had taken additional premises for the erection of a fever hospital. And such was also the case with Manchester and Glasgow. They were not a bit better. Let them, then,.extend the poor-law to Ireland, unless they intended to bring over the whole of the poor popu lation. It had been said that Ireland was for the Irish, but it seemed that England was to be for the Irish also. But let them h ave f a i r play. if. Ireland was to be for the Irish, let it keep its own poor. , Let them make their election. But in the present plan, he, at first, saw no chance. He did see that there was likely to be a great advantage for one class of persons—the place hunters—there was to be a large staff of that class for superintendents of the public works, superintendents of labeurers, farm overseers. superintendents of police, and he did not know how many be-ides. Whether these gentlemen would be ready to work or not, he did knew, though he was quite satisfied of one thing—that they would be quite ready to be paid. This was the class of pensioners of whom they were quite likely to have sufficient. Then there was another subject, which was well worthy of consideration," that was, how was the interest of the millions of these loans to be paid? If that interest was to be paid, he trusted that the property tax, as well as the assessed taxes, would be extended to Ireland. He did not see why the man who had 1401. a year should be exempted from the charge, for- the safety and protection which he enjoyed from the State, any more than he who had 160/. Neither did he see any reason why a line should be drawn in a direct line down the Bris•ol channel to separate mort g a ges , f or there was a great probability that as soon as the mortgage was removed, that the holders of estates would begin to mortgage amstal a hn: l ooo:9a e k again._( making ut - T - nha gttenob ( l /see : : agh a plr inrrseigips.nihhrpc;Aignrn.) l respons ib ilities ooel:ertsHhdp.dewoe which na d gosslyb naii adopted b d iec ehni bl n eii nf o tbi t eereds m i o, another d e aroi a n. ndnd that not Pitt ofbtouioutttr burdens allegedmho oc c asions, a nra k 6:v e, gave any las 001 oatagh chargeszaaithat ioosnfft thefr form sooner bene t fi h t e s dtntm lS ahuo f i keiewsae n i n s u t ray r eaT y e,nyhade r rei e a.nt m r laved their measure from the c h arac t er o f a per manent measure, the b e tt er . If i t were to b e made a permanent mightnsee all ne hteeh s tthnhreeitnesus c on s ider a t i o n , n ar er n e cessary s t „ that temporaryeo s houlde tnht securedes owoccur t being n measureo t u h l interest the wait there s T eidtr h se e n i x y wt o o t ams at taxation. Mr. Percival affirmed the same thing in 1811, as did also Lord Granville in the same year, contradicting the opinions which he had entertained in 1795. Mr. Fox and Mr. Baring (now Lord Ashburton), also entertained the same opinion. In the terms of that loan it was expressly stipulated, that no Com missioner, or any Member of Parliament in either House, should receive one farthing of the Exchequer loan, and he trusted that some such self-denying clause would be inserted in the Bill for the loan now proposed. At least his Noble Friend would not take anything.—(Laughter.and" Hear, hear," from the Marquis of Lansdowne.) Oh, he knew that his Noble Friend was one of the wealthiest individuals in En rope, and one who did not need such assistance.—(Laughter.) One great advantage would be, to relieve the tenants for life from the trammels in which they were now held, for it might prove of immense benefit to those who were yet unborn. But it was not money but food that the Irish people required. The people were dying by thousands daily for the want of food. They wanted corn, meal, somethin g to eat , which money could not immediat e l y procure. No w, i on the west coast of Ireland there was an abundant su pply of some of the finest fish in the world, and they had only to send nets and tackle to secure the food • • required by famishing millions. They wanted but nets and tackle to bring this fish to market ; and they only required this assistance to ob tain au abundant supply of the most wholesome and nutri tious food that any one could desire. This would save the corn and meal. He was sorry . to say, that h e was old enoughtotbroeocgoblltecttbatthe tb sca er r e clty oug o b f t thtoe beyeara l7leilt.gal and he covenant such as existed at that time when the loaf of bread around family waswas p d l e a b e a e r d re o d n fr t o h m e t t a o b u l e e , h r a , g n d the an it as m se o r e v ba t a s and e ifit had d ey one been gold andNo e t b e e e n w b a e sAlloweddealt it t o o n t t o i n u c r h e a i t t t , ie b t u e t d t h g e n au m t a i s t t i e e r a o t o f t a h l l e and none had more than their share, not a crumb was lost. Some such rule might be adopted now, and it would prove highly beneficial. Again it would be of the utmost benefit i of which a great f a restraintwere r pu t t upon the of flour w useolpastrays used, inth o the consump tiona4still r could soups, no t fish o attain, any would i f o u a rt o b e e ie r a b , en an efi d t wbooduldaccrue resource s tof terhebihebightbeerirclpaoosserser neighbours oe h ro b o o y u e r d s Ho had taken the liberty to throw out this su gg estion, Nen his recollection of 1800. He could assure their othernutrimentrefrain from with vegetables usig bread in a s d t but a instead. use Lordships that these measures had been very beneficial. He would wish, however, to ask of the Noble Lord whether he was able to give any estimation of the amount of supply ? impossible at present to state how much. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE -said it would be Lord DYSART said that while he was not of opinion that the Government should go ransacking all the granaries of the world in search of grain, he did think they should have established depots. But, coming to the immediate state of the country, there was unfortunately no doubt that the greatest scarcity existed in Ireland. He had received a letter from a Noble Friend of his, who had visited the scene of some of these appalling THE St ilir LONDON, TUESIYA'Y AVIORNING, JANUARY 26, 1847. statements of distress, and he stated that the greatest 1 suffering did really exist. They should consider the ' ' peculiar circumstances of the people of Ireland. There I were 3,500 individuals who, during the time they were otherwise unemployed, used to scrape toge- : ther manure, and by the assistance of this were I enabled to drag out a miserable and useless ex istence, but even of that they were now deprived. He begged especially the ,Goveroment would give their attention to the system of squatting. On his own estates he had an instance of the inveterate disposition, for that when he was building a house for one of his tenants, for be found that the tenant had made an arrangement not for pulling down the old tenement, but for having his in it. He (Lord. Dysart) was obliged to refuse to have the building completed, unless he would agree to the old building being pulled down. Lord DEVON thought, after what he had heard from one of their Lordships that night, that the Noble Lord must have been totally neglectful of what had passed under his own eyes ; for any one hearing that Noble Lord, and knowing nothing of Irish legislation, would have thought that the British Government for the first time had begun to legislate, and, moreover, had all at once made a demand for a loan for Irish purposes. The No Lord who had just sat down, spoke the feelings of ev - Aify honest landlord when he admitted the obligedi:oh which rested on landed pro perty to mitigate the wants of the poor. But the diffi- A culty weighing upon the subject was, that the landlord did not always represent the land, and then if he did not have the means of meeting the obligations which fell upon him as a landlord, of course he could not be ex pected to do it. But so far from the proposal of the Government being novel or strange, be recollected that as far back as the first Labour -rate Act for Ireland, the Government of that day advanced money for the " im provement, cultivation, and drainage, and otherwise the improvement of lands." Such were the words in which the Government of that day had made an advance of money to the Irish landlords; and he (Lord Devon) was sorry that the Noble Lord who had spoken on the sub ject had not exercised more industry in relation to the •abject—the same industry which he was accus tomed to show on other subjects. The Noble Lord, in his observations had spoken of the classes who would be affected by the failure of the potato crop ; but he must tell him that all classes were affected by it more or less. The lower classes scarcely ever saw money ; between the farmer and the lower - classes money hardly ever passed. The farmer in Ireland had a great aversion to bringing out money to pay for labour, for he knew not the value to him of improvements on his farm, or of having his fields well cultivated ; and, therefore he hardly ever employed the labourer at all. Moreover, speaking of this subject, and the total neglect of cultiva tion, he knew some farmers who had got money for their last year's crops, and they had actually deposited that money in the savings banks, and then thrown themselves for employment on the public works. He said he had heard much abuse heaped during the all.tob e ut i el ClonGte. discussion that night, on the Labour rate Act of last session; for his part he could not join in it; that Act was passed at a time of emergency and under pecnliar circumstances. He said he was not able to be present at the discussion of that measure last year, but he did not find by the public records, that there was much discus sion on the subject, or that there was any great opposi tion, or that those who now abused it forlevil results had made any opposition to its passing•—(Hear, hear.) What, he asked, was then the position of Irish land lords? Many persons in that country made a general demand for employment; for at that time the want of food was not so much felt as the: want of employment to enable - them to buy it with.—(Hear, hear.) At that time there were the two Drainage Acts, the Agricultural as well as the Public Drainage Act was in operation, but yet beyond these means something more was thought necessary, and therefore the Labour rate Act was introduced, and passed, to give employ ment to . the necessitous. They had heard that Act de sctibed as useless and. - .positively mischievous. He did. not - . agree with such a condemnation of it ; the unem ployed 'had gained the means of a livelihood engaged in the construction of public roads, and he believed that 'those employed as overseers had not selected even a hundred perches that would be useless; nor would they„ he was sure, make such- a selection. He had a letter in his baud which he had received from a gentleman in Ireland and 'in that- letter the writer attributed the t tr h i e n n q p e p i n il r ii? n e ty ftise et e pe m o p pl lo e y i i n u g h t i h s 0 dpiesotrpilcet at t o a n having y parthad of the season on the public works. Such had been one of the effects of this much- abused Labour-rateAct. It had been said generally in some companies, why could not the landlords themselves employ the people on reproductive works—for example; railways, and such like—without any aid from Government.. lle_asked, what was the position of the Irish landlord ? But he would not go into the difficulty of the Position of an Irish landlord on that occasion. This must be obvious, that if the Labour-rate Act had not been passed at the time it was, the destitution and distress which would have ensued must have been vast—greatly more aggravated than the existing esils. He begged to make one suggestion to the Government. He said, it was a question with many how far a person might be able to protect himself against further increased taxation. The Government proposal was that if any one would not *take a loan to be employed on reproductive works,-then he must be subjected to the taxes imposed upon th electoral division. But he (Lord Devon) wished that a diVision was made which was more select. It had been contended by some that if they employed the people on their owntown-land, they ought to be-free from furtht*. t'pEatiort. • That was not the question; for that was. really .giving a' remium ' to the man who had cleared his town-land. But his proposition • was this—the taxes imposed, by Government on an elec toral division would amount to so much ; he wished, if he, far instance, and two more, wished to take a loan' or give employment in proportion to the number of acres they possessed in the electoral division, that they should be free from further taxation. As to the subject of waste lands, which had occupied the attention of the Government and their Lordships's House, he was of opinion that the application of the loan to this purpose would be more profitable and more usefully made than to many other purposes, and that, too not with a view of recovering them for the location of cottiers, but fur allotting them . out into large farms, which would be ad vantageously cultivated - both for this country and for Ireland.:, A'Noble Lord had suggested the advancement rdas that by the of - money upon railway projects, a mode which might be good or not, but compared with the other,. the reel t a h m e a l t a io s n tt.b offering safe security and . good remuneration, he ey H of p e r Ap proved o w p o a s s e t d e t o l ands m generally eet th a e s Government, which had decidedly , f the measurespreferred proposed oett hh eo give a stimulus to labour and- employment. But, one m e n u t hee b eftohroeu attended gthhet among the others deserved the attention of their Lord ships. he meant the method tof getting rid of the re dundant population by means of emigration. He thought e th v i i s ls m o e t r v it ar a i m ou o s ng in emigrantthat an) laesfsti stptharinsocvceeoufnr.thttr'moystw' with great abuse, but any assistance on the other side of the Atlantic, when the emigrant arrived there, he was sure would were Government determined in rendering that assistance in the • land - of. emigration, that the Irish landlords uniting :together would make it more like colonisation than 7 emigration, by gathering together different classes of . •the population, so that on the other side of the Atlantic each individual would most likely find a sphere at,once to suit their energies and Much -had been said-elsewhere their ablilities. for Ireland ;he believed there-was a difficulty poor-law d with the subject; but lee was of opinion that connecte it aught to be the English. poor -law or not, the the Irish landlords must be ' - prepared to receive a poor law sooner or later. - He 'was alit' sanguine enough to they would weather the storm, and intro ducebelieve that improved state of things' in the country, from an f t he present calatnity. the experience 0 ENT Was er -- d • The Earl Of ROD I. . sures introduced would tend to produce considerable that the Labour -rate Act benefit. He denied , session was productive .of any good. The works itscon stricted provisions were entirely uselesa, and structed under besides of withdrawing the labourers it was the cause of the soil. It was well known from the cultivation d the labourers preferred to take employ . that in Ireland the . remuneration they in the public works, even when than they could• have obtained they received was less a thi - A account he considered that the farmers ; and 0 . . possible circumspection should have that the greatest employment. He was sure the exercised in affording be received as boons by Ireland, the measures Proposed wou ld giie them his sup- Ireland, and he should, ther ef ore, port. Was sorry that the Noble The Earl FITZVVIL LIAM bushis speeches, and who Lord, who was so discursive r et quibusdam alas, generally spoke de omnibu s occasion. He regretted was not in his place on thatwas . present, as h e (Lord that his Noble Friend . was not ... bearing his testimony, t o Fitzwilliam) had pleasure in . . made at the close of the excellence of a recommendation be recommended that that Noble Lord's speech, in which the people ofthis country they sh6uld 'endeavour to induce possible from the con country to abstain as much as .. - With respect to what sumption of farinaceous food. ; na behind him (Lord had fallen from his Noble Friend _Act, he (Earl Fitz- Devon) respecting the Labour -rate that measure did william) had to observe, that although.t could have been not work' in the way .in which 1 . a and he would wished, still it had effected much goo d + ask those Noble Lords who made too strong grounds of would the country have objection to it, in what condition been in if that Act had net passed? That measure; he s of Ireland ; for considered, was a test for the landlord if they did not employ their destitute labourers on their own properties, this ket made it Conipulsory to afford them employment on the public roads, and he there fore denied that it was a positive evil. He believed 'that in a l point of view no . the Act, though not providing for works of a useful nature, still was of great benefit, and it ap peared to him very evident that it was a means of re lieving a very considerable portion of the distress. With respect to the measures opened this evening by the Noble Marquis on the Treasury bench, he begged to say that they did as much credit to the wisdom of her Majesty's Government as they would, he was sure, prove efficient to meet the • they were intended. emergency for which There were some parts of them to which exception might be taken, but he sincerely believed that to some extent they would grapple with the evils they were intended to meet. He must now say a word for the would say certainly:c.ieharilne would tend to landlords of Ireland ; and he would say with respect l w o:l ti t i o them, that it the whole responsibility and duty of idle viating the distresses of the people of Ireland, were to s thees s e I d a n o d f be cast on one class, and that class the landlords, he Parliament and Government would do a great injustice to that class. lie would ask, why put nt that at persons work ? i n Ireland H e di did it on that class alone ? Were there no persons there possessed ? be W en e g e ag til ed er i e n not think that such a course was ajust one, and he would gte further ,gad. s ay, it s hould - ~ that Ireland alone. Ile Would ask why Ireland was in such A condition ? He would ask why Ireland was as if is ? He would ask wealthy London—he would ask England? There could be but one answer. It was the original tyranny of England which produced it. He said it was England which produced it, and he had no hesitation in saying that England should relieve it. He called upon their Lordships to relieve them. If 22,000 paupers were relieved by the rate-payers of Liver pool in one day, what an awful disclosure did it make of the calamity which prevailed, and of the necessity which existed for alleviating it. With regard to the reclamation of waste land, that was, in his opinion, the kind of work precisely from which they ought most cautiously to abstain from all interference. He very much feared that such an under taking on the part of Government would not be pro ductive of the anticipated benefit, as he believed that Government were not the parties who could most effec tively carry out such a measure. He thought the greatest possible difficulty would ensue if they adopted this measure, and he took that opportunity of inti mating to them his apprehensions regarding it. He had another view to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention before he sat down. It might be an eidolum in his own mind, but he thought that the entire system of railway management should be in the hands of the Government. Sure he was, however, that in Ireland, if Government would undertake the construction of rail ways such a course would be of the greatest possible ad vantage. If they did undertake the construction of railways, a better system of railways would be intro duced, than if the conflicting claims, views, and interests of private parties were interwoven with them, and there would be besides a more beneficial effect upon the em ployment of labour. It was by the operation of such a system of railway construction that they could hope to change the character, position, and location of the rural population of Ireland, and it was for this reason that he most earnestly directed their Lordships' attention to the subject. The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL said he was not at that late period of the night going to test their Lord ship's patience by entering in detail into the history of Ireland—(A laugh)—but one thing that he should infer from this history was, that ever since Ireland had been under the yoke of England —at all events up to the time of the union—the influence of the former country had been exerted to crush the trade and commerce of Ireland. The truth of this assertion was shown by the provisions of the Act of the 6th of George 1., the obnoxious influence of which was not repealed until the middle of the reign of George 111 He had been informed, and in fact had seen in one instance, that where a few old cabbage leaves were thrown into the mud they were eagerly seized by the starving wretches who 'were loitering about. It was a fact that six out of eight labourers in Ireland were in a state of destitution, and was it possible for the Irish proprietors to support that mass of misery? They could not. According to the valuation of Mr. Griffiths, the rental of Ireland was 12.715,0004 per annum, and was now about 13,000,0004 -per annum in round numbers. The amount of bonds, - mortgages, &c., on landed pro perty in Ireland, was about eight years' purchase, or 100,000,0001., and that at 15 per cent. made 5,000,0001., and the law expenses and other incidental charges, besides children's fortunes in marriage settlements, would make, beside a total including the interest, 10,415,0001., leaving the balance of 13,000,000/. for the support of all this distress. Was it possible, with less than three mil lions per annum, to support a starving population and themselves also ? The average cost of maintaining a pauper was ls. 6d. per week, and that, taking the popu lation of Ireland— at least all the poor—would give 12,000,0004 per annum, to be paid, out of less than three millions per annum. The landlords were also placed in a very bad position in consequence of the liability of the tenants to pay up their rents ; and therefore it would be only an act of justice to prevent the fore closure of tfie mortgages for a certain term—for a term of three years—so as to enable them to have some chance of bettering themselves.—(Hear, hear.) The present system of letting land was such, that a farm which forty years ago was in the possession of one person, was now divided among forty, and in many cases no rent whatever could be obtained. The fourth of the produce of the land was that which ought to go for rent, but it seldom happened, that they realised so much. The people of Ireland married young, and got large families, and this was the cause of the super abundant , population of that country. There were 690,000 some odd hundred farms inTralands 'these, 310,000 were under five acres in extent, 152,000 be tween five and ten acres, 79,000 not exceeding thirty acres, and but 47,000 exceeded the latter extent. Such was the minute divisions of farms which had taken place. He was confident that if something was not done this year, in finding seed potatoes and oats, there would be no crop next year, and matters would be worse than they were at present.. The Government ought to take this question into its most serious consideration. Having stated thus much, he would reserve what further he had to say till a future occasion. The Marquis of WESTMEATH did not intend say ing much now, as a future opportunity would be given of discussing the question. Still he bad a remark or two to make on the address of the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne). The Noble Marquis said the Government intended to advance sums of money as loans to the landlords to improve their estates, but he (the Marquis of Westmeath) did not think many of them could take advantage of that, unless different arrangements were made respecting its application. At present the intention of the best disposed landowner could be defeated by any litigious person. The Noble and Learned- Lord on the Woolsack would bear him out in saying. that if an injunction were applied for to restrain waste land, it would at once be granted, but in many instances the suing out of an injunction , would eat up the fee simple of an estate. He was before Lord Devon's Commission in 1844, and he stated there that if a new mode of occupation was not struck out by the law, the whole country would, in a period of less than five years, be falling back on the State to feed them. He considered that if his suggestions had been then attended to, the calamities which they had been subjected to would not have had such frightful results. He had held a conference with some of the legal authorities upon the subject. There were present the Lord Chancellor, Sir E. Sugden, Judge Jackson, and Mr. Blackburne ; the latter suggested that the writ of injunction should be reduced to merely a nominal expense ; they all agreed with him, and he was sure no one could prove that he was in the wrong ; but Mr. Blackburne was made Master of the Rolls, and there the matter ended.— (Laughter.) He thanked the House for their attention, but he could not refrain from saying as much as he did. Earl GREY said that he was sorry to prolong this discussion, and he would only do so for a short time, more especially at that hour, when the House had been reduced to such a small number; but as some remarks had been made in the course of the debate to which he felt it imperative to reply, he trusted they would allow him their attention for the few moments he would trespass upon their indulgence. He alluded to what was very improperly called the Labour-rate Act. He thought that a great majority of Noble Lords had pro nouncd the strongest sentence of condemnation on that Act, and certainly, by the last of these Noble Lords, the impression might have been conveyed of a grave censure on her Majesty's Government for want 01 com mon foresight and providence in this matter. Now he could not help thinking that if they looked to the period when this Act was passed, they would come to the conclusion that the implied censure On her Majestys Government was undeserved. The Noble and Learned Lord said that this Act was passed in a great hurry after the - Isth August, and he concluded that the advanced period of the session was proof suffi cient that the measure had been ill-digested. That measure was a weasure authorising presentment of public works precisely of ~the same nature as the pre vious Act. Half the money was to .be advanced from local sources, and half from the British Treasury. This was brought in last January, and large use was made of these presentments for public works, and upwards of 1,300,0004 was given for these works. So great were these works felt to be of advantage, that great complaints were made from districts where those works were not begun. Buta.this was a misapplication of the fund, for the money was granted for 'the relief of distress ; and for relief of distress alone, and not for public works at all ; and great abuses were com mitted in the employment of persons who ought never to have been put upon these works at all. Yet notwithstanding these abuses the object was fully attained, and the people were so relieved that they were better off in the summer of last year. There was the testimony of the Catholic clergy that such was the case, and there was more money paid into the savings' banks than for years before. He was credibly informed, that up to the middle of August the prospects of the potato crop were of the brightest character, but all at once the blight seemed to come over the whole of the crop. W as it, then, unreasonable that her Majesty's Government should pass a measure to meet the evil? They did so. They renewed the measure of the previous year, but they obviated the evil which had formerly been endured. It was found that the abuse of the presentments for public works had been occa sioned by the desire to obtain roads where they were wanted. The delay in the consideration of the mea sures for Ireland, by the protracted debates on the com mercial- policy of the country, threw these measures late, but they were passed, and those abuses were ob viated. It should be recollected, that the great object of this Bill was not the formation of public works, but the relief of distress. This was an important conside ration, and ought to kept carefully in view. Let it be recollected how relief was obtained for distress in Eng land when it occurred in any of our great towns. Why, when anything of this kind occurred in Norwich, Nottingham, Sheffield, or Manchester, subscriptions were raised, and the amount collected was distributed through the agency of a committee ; and, doubt less, in some instances, unworthy objects obtained the relief. Just something of this kind had occurred in the Bill of last year. Abuses had unquestionably been committed, but he contended that the abuse was not to be ascribed to the Bill, but to the way in which it had Noble Lord the Secre tary occurred, undoubtedly the 1 17 ) e i n n tcoarri theseeout details,l t w o a u n l c d i , h however, appilyi tb:.artap a n i ho n te fu a l ec th es in sa g r to however, he must again insist to their not the construc '3u t if for anylr Ireland n n d e wwere responsiblet ob e ch charged r for the t w h e i t h mLio t s re dh he e fi v p i sts Still,tthh a a y t t the object of that Bill was s that none others but it? Whose business was it to see these works? employed on !hose who were destitute were who had the management, Why, it was the duty of . those Itto was t o t s f public tae tha t works,the Billou t thhaed reliefrafailed, d o , t where the works were going butthe general whose fault distress. was and resided in the districts g towns, no men were tingham and other what had beep e d e case in Ireland? elsewhere. But W on. hy, W in he e n n were engag in improving the being carried on in employment,Not and were allowed to go land gave up that increasing the amount of work on public works, and of food for thdiminishing e people. the supply distress, and th the House and the country employed on them who e 'could find employment simwihlaor workiasrwere, le It was necessary peop • up these matters. In Augun should know the truth u and September last there was an universal cry and pres sure upon the Govertin-ent to commence works. In a particular case from %Vest Corinne, there came a deputa tion to the Government, who declared that the necessity for undertaking work in that county was urgent and could not possibly be p os tp one d, an d yet, b y the following post, there came accounts from that district saying that they were growing in that neighbourhood an unusually fine crop of corn, which was suffering from the want of hands to cut it.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted the diffi culties the Irigh gentry had had to contend with. They had not the advantage of the middle class of this country to tell who were the really destitute, but still, if the measure failed through deficient machinery for carrying it out, it was not fair to lay all the blame at the door of the Government.—(Hear, bear, and cbeers.) It was his firm conviction that had the Government received the proper co-operation of those whose duty it was to give it, the measure would have succeeded, more especially if works had not been unnecessarily presented, and none but really destitute had been employed.—(Hear, hear.) ft had succeeded in Scotland, where the proprietors of land had borrowed large sums of money under similar power-, which they had applied to the improvement of their estates, and the result was, the population of the distressed districts had been well supplied with food and employment. 'e thought that when the House was in possession of the papers intended to be laid upon the table of their Lordship? llouse, they would be of cpinion that the Government had done all that could possibly be ex pected of them to do under the circumstances in which they were placed. It was the duty of the Government not to have opened the depots until the latest possible period—a considerable time was to elapse before the next harvest could be got in. The amount of grain, of all kinds, entered for home consumption in the year 1846, exceeded 4,800,000 quarters. There were agents for the British merchants in every market, buying every quarter of wheat they could lay their hands upon. If the Government, then, had entered into the market, the most disastrous results would have followed a poliqw so perfectly suicidal, and therefore the Government could only obtain a limited supply, which was, of course, obliged to be most parsimoniously preserved. If there was one thing more essential to the benefit of Ireland, it was the establishment of a class of retail traders, and if, when that class was just springing up, the Government had entered into the market and cut up the bud of that opening, it would have been a most injurious and fatal line of policy. With reference to emigration. he be lieved the Government would only have done mischief had they attempted to provide the means of emigration upon an extensive scale and failed in the attempt. The number of emigrants during the last ten years was 687,000, and during the last year the number amounted to 110,000; the greater majority of these were Irish. and had the Government sent out a still larger number, it might be doubtful whether, upon their landing, the proper means of' subsistence could have been obtained for them. Those who went to Canada in this way, after a while remitted money home in order to bring out their fami lies ; 37,0001. had within a short period been remitted in this way to Liverpool. But if the plan of the Noble Lord opposite was adopted, parties would not endeavour to find their way out at their own expense, no remit tances would take 'place, and the whole cost would de volve upon the Government. Without any aid from their Lordships, the tide of emigration would continue to increase. He might say. that next year the number of emigrants would be doubled. He agreed with the Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) who spoke early in the evening, that the Government could render essential service to emigrants by pointing out to them how to proceed, what districts to select, and to afford them other important information. They should not forsake the system of caution adopted by the Noble Lord whilst in office. He should shortly, however, lay papers before their Lordships which would afford the fullest information on the subject. Such were the views which her Majesty's Government entertained on the subject. After a few words from Lord FERRARA' .Lord MONTEAGLE said that he poirltl the debate tncloee without 'adverting' to'.tOme expres-,' sions which had been - used by the Secretary - 6f State: There had been a remarkable abstinenCe from vitupera-' tion during the whole course of the deb2te; lie Con fessed that the Noble Lord did no more than ,his duty by' repelling imputation's if any had been ettst, reeollect-Altatt;4 it illaut!gning the LabOitrlistefeitte 'WitVeist' upon her Majesty Government. —(Hear, bear.) The Labour-rate Act was one - the .worst which had ever been put upon the statute-book. All the abuses which the Noble Lord had pointed out in the Act might exist, but it said so much the less for the enactment, for he could not point out any good which had arisen from it—it had- been wholly inoperative for any good purpose. If the Labour rate Ace, which his Noble Friend so strongly recom mended, was so good, why propose now to set it aside? He had, however, not denied the failure of the mea sure, but the came of it was alleged to have arisen not from the conduct of the people, but be cause of the want of co-operation on the part of the Irish landlords. To that he would answer, that there was no place in the British Empire, far less Ire land, where such a measure would be allowed to" con tinue. The Labour-rate Act had been a most unfortunate measure, and had failed from its imperfect machinery— not from the want of the co-operation of the Irish land owners. The operation of the Act had been a most compared with what they a arily were in th e districts whe p re the law was brought into operation. The presentment sessions were a most imperfect and injurious mode of securing improvements. Thotie cessions were generally called together without any notice, and the business was transacted in the presence of excited multitudes, who were eager to get the votes of money without relation to the possibility of raising the money, or the mode of its application. Presentments were, in consequence, made faster than the clerks could write them down. At these sessions they had the engineer and the officer of the bourd of works, who in some mea sure would be a protection against the indiscriminate adoption of the hundreds of presentments that are now cast before the magistrates. Much misrepresentation had been put before the public with respect to the pro ceedings at presentment sessions, but they who did so had not considered the many difficulties besetting them. At one sessions, of which he was chairman, the presentments were so numerous that on asking the advice of the officer of the Board of Works, he suggested that they should all be sent up to the Board, when a selection would be made, and thus the hands of the magistrates would be strengthened ; and yet, notwithstanding this, he (Lord Monteagle) and other Irish proprietors had been re proached for sending up a mass of presentments to the Board of Works without attempting anything like a selection, when, in this case, the course wa- adopted at the instigation of their own officer. He would just ad vert to one other topic in connexion with the distress in Ireland, and that was the remedy of emigration. In some parts of Ireland society was, in what he might call, a congested state, and the only remedy, therefore, was doe topical one of emigration. He did - not speak so much of national as local emigration. The Noble Lord said that he did not so much intend to aid the emigrant in this country as on the other side. But great care was necessary in :he distribution of this aid for the pur poses of Government would be lost if, instead of aiding the more destitute, they granted assistance where such aas not so much required. He would not have risen that evening had it not been for the laboured defence of the Act passed last session by his Noble Friend, and he would not have even risen in consequsnc of that defeece had it not been for the assertion of his Noble Friend that the failure of that Bill was solely owing to the want of co-operation on the part of Irish landlords. He (Lord Monteagle) would be prepared to lo rove, in the coarse of these discussions, that there were tlements in the constitution of that Bill which must have Necessarily made it a failure. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he must be termitted to make one or two observations on this sub lect. He thought that the Noble Lord wh o h a d s p o k en ast had altogether misapprehended the remarks made by his Noble Friend the Secretdry for the Colonies who did 4,,t pretend to say that . this Act was to be a permanent Act for the good of heisted. He only stated that it was the best scheme that could be devised at the time, and it was only found inefficient because it had not been upported in that country. They then left those parts which .they thought were not faulty; and, indeed, left the Bill pretty nearly as they found it. Now, he must refer 63 the assertion that these presentments were all sent tip together. Was that the way in which local business was transacted in England? Did they not privately discuss the measures of local importance a little in private, and then, mhking a selection, prefer those which they thought to be the best? Then, with regard to the Building Act. It had totally failed them—at least to the extent of 100,0001.—but it had failed entirely through the act of the lawyers; and it was inconsequence of the communi cation on this point that the contents of the letter was addressed to Mr. Labouchere. That Act had been introduced by the Noble Lord himself. But there was one thing which he could not help feeling a little hard, and that was, that while under the difficult circumstances in which they had been placed, all their measures had been condemned,• but no one had attempted to point out what measures they ought to have adopted. He did hope for great benefit from the measures which the Go vernment were about to adopt, especially from that prin. ciple of emigration to which so much allusion had been Made, but he would not, at that late hour of the ni g h t , e nter upon any further consideration of the subject. WORKHOUSES IN IRELAND. The Marquis or LANSDOWNE laid on the table copies of the correspondence on the state of workhouses in Ireland, together with several returns of the state of the poor in Ireland and Scotland. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 25. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. WADDINGTON presented a petition from the board of guardians of the Petworth Union, praying for the abolition of the law of settlement. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. The HON. MEMBER also presented a petition from the licensed victuallers and brewers at Bury, praying that the penalties on the use of molasses and sugars in breweries and distilleries should not be exacted. TEN HOURS' BILL. Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from cotton spinu - ,rs and others in Lancashire in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill for young persons and children. SUNDAY TRADING. Mr. TUFNELL presented petitions fro,n various ul,t(Ts ncriin,t Sunday trading. THE BRITISH ARMY IN INDIA. —ADVANCE MENT OF MONEYS. Mr. WATSON presented a petition from an officer (whose name we could not hear) in the Bengal army, praying that certain moneys, which had been advanced to the thou Raja, and which sums were charged against the principality of Oude, should be restored. the petitioner had memoralized the members of the East India House since the year 1817, but he was aware that he had no legal claim against that company, and he prayed therefore that the 'House would take the 10? int into consideration, with a view of granting redieia. f. •,, ' DISTRESS IN IRELAND. J ' - Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented po_etitinaa from Cork, and other places in Ireland, and aeierej towns in England, praying that the Government *Ohl take immediate and efficient measures to provide food for the suffering people of Ireland. CHINESE REVENUE. - t Dr. BOWRING gave notice that upon an early tlitY he would move for a return of the revenues collected in China, and also the different modes of regulating i ts COli lection at Hong-Kong and other places in China. .; GROWTH OF COTTON IN INDIA. / Mr. BRIGHT gave notice that he would, on Thursdny, next, move for a Select Committee to inquire into the`: growth of cotton in India, and the encouragement giie'a, to it by the British Government. ;:.) NATIONAL GALLERY. as hid ' Mr. HUME stated that, on Thursday next, it w intention to move an humble address to the Crow n ! to lay upon the table of the House copies of any of : t_„ l39 minutes addressed to the trustees of the National Cia' , lery during the last two years, and also copies of 014 directions given to them respecting the management sat' arrangement of the pictures in the gallery. USE OF MOLASSES IN DISTILLERIES;,: , Mr. HUME also gave notice that upon the same he would move for copies of any reports showing the. reason why molasses should not be introduced into !.: country and used in distilleries upon the same footing a! sugar. ~,•1 ..• .. , ANNEXATION OF CRACOW. • 4 -=, Mr. HUME stated that be would postpone the 0 2 ,.":- Lion, of which he had given notice upon this subjects tc,.! , future day, in consequence of the papers promis ed the Government not having been laid upon the table 9 the House. - , . POOR-LAW. Mr. FERRAND gave notice that, on Thuradirlili t ; he would move for the appointment of a Select V'at mittee to inquire, into the mode adopted by the Poier:la? l Commissioners ,and their AssistantsCommissidneti 11, drawing up reports, and their treatment of boards guardians, and what control the Right Hon. Sir J a m - .. Graham, Bart., exercised over the Poor-law Commis"- sioners and their Assistant-Commissioners, duel' office the time he held the of her Majesty's plinth 0 Secretary of State for the Home Department s .„„ g whether under the enforcement of the new poor;law .: wages had not been reduced ; whether crime had Ia: k increased, and whether a system of terror instead of 013 .: system of kindness, had not been adopted towa r ds. ~ , , ...i' poor, and whether the favourable anticipations o f '...i pressed in Parliament by the promoters of the new ' • law had not entirely failed; and whether the PFl"'''' , n ui ec. upon which the new poor-law was founded vas '• '"! direct violation of the constitution of England. „el' CHARGES AGAINST THE LATE I - Iv".r" SECRETARY. .• The Host. MEMBER also gave notice, that on Th__ fr oll ; .-: day next, he would, in his place in Parliament, Jades"l". certain charges against the Right Hon. Sir ds. .• Graham, Bart., Member of that House, lately hol the office of her Majesty's principal Secretary of sr- i , for the Home Department, affecting his character - 1 0 , h i ) Minister of the Crown, and also as a Member a 4, House of Commons. ,CORPORAL PUNISHMENTS IN HONG-KONG' ' ' ! Dr. BOWRING said, during last session, when . ,g7if , interest was excited on the' subject of the inflietiont - , ;4. corporal punishment, he called the attention a it i .:, Under-Secretary for the Colonies .(Mr. Hawes) to , t 1 0;' infliction of a similar punishment in the colony Of 0° ,.. ' Kong. and referred to a particular case, in which gi, i four persons were so dealt with. e (Mr. Bawl: ~. stated on that occasion that in his opinion the paw s :4 2 4lv ment was unauthorised and illegal, and expresse d '' s intention of taking an early opportunity to inquire A g . 40,010 w: A sufficient time had eliipsedL-to enable ,h 1 04 0 .11 - 1.040 . So. .14. .wished to _inqnire nether , any, stP!- 4P' hid;bizen;ieceivettp-Abe commutheitilldi inh,if . ..,,,,,10piar,.6.7:,...t0 the infliction ',.• .' or oral n° --4 '7V . '. , h - f i.. 0,,,, . ments,Llk l the. itoliit‘Cigu'its -14. Hong- . .:: :' , ,iiidlvb e ' 1 0' ,',' any, sfejtt , , ,I)ad been taken to nreeellt--;:' • ins - •-',, r • . ' , • - 'eg, ~0 Cerpoiatilftitislimerit; whether ' ' ''sit ' d s o . :vt l• or euging,,cff the ' tails of - the • , i _l.. , ~'''' - iicii 4 - ' , l3eb . tii , Aii.ble - kti pay Pecuniary finesi.' '...Cikrienf Lifters e , ~, lt,..Ye:ifieSsailOs explain this;:',..neiVePtitiav i t".:....*' :4:Winiliis4,4tatfhat, - .inal i '" ,' o r talent - of flogging, the authorities bad cut off the tal ler et 0. - thenatireh r ,-(Laughter.) He also wished to aslsrigh an ordinance, circulated in the Chinese iiiiiipaper ,4 10, of 1844), had been brought to the notice of . P o Majesty's Government, and obtained their enne ti° ,r ; such ordinance appearing to authorise whatever .b 4 4 barous and brutal punishments might be in . t es e under the Chinese code, or according to C . r be " it usages. The ordinance was to this effect:— An" o af ' enacted, that in lieu of the whole or any part of ...., penalty provided by the law, statute, or ordinance, J win "' a e soever, it shall be lawful for the court of justice 'Z oo *. whom the matter shall be adjudicated upon, to sens e of any offender, b e i n g a nati v e of Chin a , or a nat l „'ior, Hong-Kong of Chin e se origin, to undergo such P i 'his ment in conformity with _the usages of Chins, °b i b l e, hitherto been usually inflicted on natives of committing offences in this colony." t t ° Mr. HAWES said, in reply to th e questions pet t Mr. HAWES said, in reply to the queStioflSnhiOU him by his Hon. Friend, he had first to call the: t s ' ess ion. of the House to what _passed in that House 15s ; as e of a His Hon. Friend drew his attention to th e - ill' d be en • Chinese on whom corporal punishment ha ll the ci!: : ' licted, and he told him, in reply, that a an ireu cumstances connected with that case would be'in's 01 into. His Noble Friend at the head of the Coleho. Department had sought an explanation from th e L ti t t • rities of the island, which was to the following e"- an was • The Chinese in question had been guilty of fel o ny , •-" was arreeted. A rescue was attempted by a 'erg"' number of Chinese, which was attended with c osi:- derable violence. They were, however, all arreste d ' ' and carried to the police-office, where the questi° l • was heard, and others were convicted and fi ne d five dol lars, or to receive twenty strokes of a "rattan." 01 , must confess, however, that this punishment was itenT o panied with the loss of their tails.—(Hear, hear, ° l i r ; laugh.) The seas were there infested by gangs of Is ~, less persons, and it was found very difficult to devise sts.;f„ punishment at all commensurate with their offence' . 0 (Hear, hear.) It was in the power of the inagiet_., ll ,• to inflict the punishment that was inflicted in this M; With respect to the ordinance, be had to state thevro, was sanctioned in 1844 after. a good deal of cone id ; h it , tion, but ha was at the same time bound to admit : 0 . it was impossible to assimilate the punishnientsc;44 flitted under a Chinese code with those ind i o o under an English one, as they were extremely bar further. He had" promisedHn. Friend to procure he. information on this point, and when he received it, should lay it before the House. THE CHANNEL SQUADRON. Tiler Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of his intention t o -- tbe row to ask the Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary te., o f: Admiralty (Mr. Ward), whether it was the interiti7oBl the Government to employ any part of the Ch . .., $ t ot squadron try import corn into this country on sec ow• merchants ? G . Mr. BARCL AY SHIPPI presented a petition INTEREST from a nam e! of owners of ships in Sunderland, representing the r perty of 1,200 tons of shipping at Sunderland. ORDERS OF THE DAY. of Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the postpone nt the orders of the day till the notices of motion wer e posed of.—The motion was adopted. THE SOLDIERY IN INDIA. pctiag Dr. BOWRING rose to make an inquiry resP the conduct of the British army in India, of o r . - v , notice had been given at the latter end of last 2 65 , si t he .. and which had been repeated on the first day etw„,r, ' present, to hid lion. Friend the Secretary at ... de r', It referred to the report s o f th e hanging und ing by the British ar m y i n I n di a , and originat" consequence of a lett e r wr i tten by a soldier of the ; Regiment, whi c h was i nserte d in a local paper of e ( 1 1 , siderable circulation, the Stamford Mercury. This p st p g , 0 meat was reprinted by a well known body—the t he Society. There was no doubt of the authenticity of ;h0 letter, and th a t i t h a d b een wr i tten b y a soldier In " 80th Regiment. It b ore th e p ost mark, and there sv A tT therefore, also no d ou bt b ut th a t i t was put i n in Inui and was countersigned by th e ma j or . Thi s me mber ° a the British army goes into the mos t m i n ut e d e tails, e n , gives a full account of the atrocities of the B r itish ar o3 / c i in which he says he himself took part.. No answer ha yet been given to the question, and in now call upon his lion. Friend (Mr. Fox Manic) for 1 1; explanation, he thought it but right to 0 :: that the Society of Friends had made every ." - t : qniry into the circumstances reported in this states:tele The Hon. FOX MAULE wished to exonerate gentlemen to whom allusion had been made fro° t s ,s blame. There was no doubt they h a d ac t e d on Ifle; from a private named Runn. An inquiry ', ll l made on the subject, an inv es ti ga ti on h a d b ee n se'' 3 foot, and he held a r e p or t i n hi s h and from wil,ig, l appeared that Runn deni e d h av i ng written that left tri; and a statement to th at effect had been forward Lord Gough. M. HENLEY w i s h e d to ask the Chance ll or of t b : respect Exchequer wh e th er t h e regu l at i on with to sue .31 was to apply to all persons brewing. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER p e r posed to take off restrictions from all persons who engaged in brewing. EXEMPTION FROM COMMITTEES. a§ The usual motions were then p u t, th a t th e mem,..„ — ce of the Gov e r nmen t s h ou ld b e exem pt e d f rom attenaw' on th e Committees of the House. Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he wished to be e 4; empted from the duty of Com m itt ees , h e being °' sixty years of age.—(Laughter.) THE STATE OF IRELAND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I feel that I Defer /Isla so much need of the indulgence of the Mouse as I bA" on the present occasion, but I feel, at the same t in ? that I never had so little need to ask that ' ind i t e gence. I feel sure that this House, from ni temper which it has already displayed ; the sense which it has manifested of the calamity that has occurred, and I fear calamities still impending; fr °sll the sense of the danger that there would be from inte ti b r : posing any party feeling in the discussion of this s ject; from the kindly disposition with which I baps be : already received by the House,—l feel sure, t w i:: that on this occasion I need not ask for any such in " e. gence, but that it will be voluntarily bestowed uP OI3 , 112 —(Cheers.) Sir, in considering the state of Ic'e land ' er will first proceed with laying down what is th e % ro t in which I wish to discuss the subject. In the t o. place, I propose to s t a t e genera lly the co oni tion of those parts o f th e U n ited Ni n g d ke in which this calamity has occurred ; secondly , to .the a general statement o f w h a t h as occur red during '. es. recess of Parliament ; w h a t h as b ee n done in co ns e quence of Acts of Parliament ; how 'fir those ineasur 11 lye E worki t tion few an , bit in again This al givin g th e eel W►orkit guise of the in rev and ha gret at am Their' 'feral f Their obligee inatani being Their in seam hams and m the P' Irehu Park forth