The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-25 00:00:00

but having reason to believe, from a conversation with the Ifon. G en tl eman (M r. B enett ) who h a d c h arge of the B: I. it would b e p os t pone d f or a wee k, ne i t h er h e nor is colleagu e came d own to t h e H ouse unt il t h e Bill had tY? n read a secon d t i me. S uc h a measure o f disfranchiseme t was founded on gross injustice. He did not dispute , r verdict of th e C omm itt ee , that bribery and p er j ury h, d been practised, but the punishment should fell on th e - o - tenders only, and it was unjust for the offence.; of a few 0 disfranchise a whole body. Now that all the grek towns were about to ba enfranchised, the Bill Woul f id appear more as a measure of rensenance than la measure called for by the justire of the case. When the Bill came before the House upon a third reading he trusted to he able to show a sufficient reason to induce th e House not to sanction it. Mr. EWART concurred in the observations of hi, Hon. Colleague. Col. EVANS, in reference to the observations of con demning the many for the offences of a few, said he be lieved there were about 3,500 freemen in Liverpool, of whom there was good reason for believing oboist 3,00 i) were in the habit of accepting bribes. After a few observations from Colonel DAVIES and Sir R. Pima., the petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. HOSKINS then presented a petition from the town of Ross, in Herefordshire, a;ainst the punishment of death for certain offences. Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from Black :lotto, for the extinction of Colonial Slavery ; also one from Manchester, against the Bill regarding the stoppage of public footpaths, and complaining that two magistrate, were intrusted with the:power, without the intervention of a Jury, to order pithlic footways to be stopped tip. The Hon. and Learned Member said he would do his b, st to get that clause struck out of the Bill, as it greatly in terfered with the pleasures and the comforts of the people, particularly of the labouring portion of them. Mr. CAMPBELL said the law as it stood at present with regard to public footpaths was most grossly abu-ed, and he should be glad to assist in remedying so great an evil. Mr. T. B. LENNARD did not believe the abuses existed, which had been referred to by the Hon. Member for Stafford. Mr. J. WOOD could assure the Hon. Member that they did, and could point out facts that had come under his own observation, which would prove it to the most sceptical mind. Sir E. SUGDEN defended the conduct of magistrates. 11e had acted as one himself for some time, and had never witnessed any itnproper conduct on the part of his col leagues in respect to the matters stated by the Hon. Mem ber for Stafford. After some further observations from Mr. CAMPBELL and Sir R. PRICE, the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. J. WOOD presented a petition from Seaford, against the Sewers Bill ; also petitions from Crompton, Ashton-under-Lyne, Kendal, Woburn, the wards of Castle Baynard, Farringdon Within, Bishopsgate, Cripple gate, and Walhrook. praying the House to stop the sup plies till the Reform Bill became law. Mr. WRIG II TON presented a petition from Hull, signed l'y 1,000 pepsine, praying that if legitimate means were oot devised to secure the Reform Bill, the House would stop the supplies. Mr. MACKINNON brought up a Bill to amend the Csstry Laws, which was read a first time. Mr. HENEAGE presented a petition ftorn Lincoln in favour of Reform, and praying to stop the supplies till the Reform Bill was passed. Colonel SIBTHORPE denied that the inhabitants of the city of Lincoln were root and branch Reformers. If the Reform Bill was thrown nut, and, according to the rumours that wire afloat to-day, there was a probability of it, he should be prepared to support a moderate Reform ; but he never could sanction so dangerous and re volutionary a measure as that which was introduced by his Majesty's Ministers. Mr. LABOUCHERE presented petitions from Taunton :against Negro Slavery, the Friendly Societies Act, and one in favour of Reform, and praying the House not to appro priate the supplies already granted, and not to grant future supplies till the Reform Bill had passed. Mr. WILKS presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Alderman Birch, and other persons, members of a society for the prevention of cruelty to animals, praying for the intervention of the House to amend the laws re- Dating to that subject; one from Falmouth, in favour of the Benefit Societies Bill ; and one from Boston, again.t Negro Slavery. Mr. M'LEOD presented petitions from Cree-Invergoi don and Tain, in favour of Reform. Mr. SCHONSWAR presented a petition from Hull, praying the House to interfere in favour of the oppressed Poles. The Honourable Gentleman said he perfectly agreed with his constituents on this question. T he present state of that brave and devoted people was enough to make a , vise and patriotic man mad. There was connected with the Treaty of Vienna, to which this country was party, and the late conduct of Russia, enough to justify the in terference of that House, or his Majesty's Government, in their behalf. Mr. DixoN, Mr. CAMPBELL, and Mr. O'CONNELL, severally supported the petition. Mr. C. FERGUSSON said that when he brought the question before the House on a former occasion, he was accused of having overcharged his statement of the suf ferings of that heroic people, but events had shown th it lie had not sufficiently coloured the picture which he had drawn. He hoped this petition would be followed up, so as to force the Government to take notice of the matter. Mr. DIXON presented petitions from the merchants, bankers, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of Glasgow, and from the Trades House of Glasgow, praying for pro tection to the West India colonies. The Hon. Member said the petitioners felt this a question of very great im portance, for, as was well expressed in their petition, the prosperity of Glasgow depended entirely upon the prospe t ity of those co'onies, and he who would stab their inte rests would give a mortal stab to the interests of that city. Mr. HODGES presented a petition from the file manu. lacturers of the county of Kent, praying for a reduction o; the duty on files. Mr. T. DUNDAS presented a petition from the city o York, beseeching the House not to grant any further supplies until the Reform Bill be pissed. Mr. BAYNTON supported the prayer of the petition, which was then ordered to he printed. DISTRESS IN THE WEST INDIES. The Marquess of CHANDOS presented a petition, signed by a numerous body of the planters, merchants, ship owners, mortgagees, and others interested in the West India Colonies, which had been agreed to at a large meeting in the City of London some time ago. It was indeed a petition which came from so respectable a class of persons, that it was entitled to the most serious consideration of the House, and he trusted the House would see with him the extent of the distress in those colonies, and the necessity that existed for speedy relief. It complained of the Government having issued Orders in Council inconsistent with the re solution of 1823, and deprecated the avowed intention of the Ministers only to grant relief contingent upon the unqualifi-d adoption of those Orders in Council. The Noble Marquis, in supporting the prayer of the petition, regretted that the Government had not taken the subject in a different spirit, and declared, that unless r e li e f be speedily afforded, the colonies would riot much longer be part and parcel of the British dominions.—(Hear.) Sir A. DALRYMPLE said, altlemeh nut concerned immediately with the West India colonies, he supported the prayer of the petition. The West India interests uffered from a variety of causes ; their produce was taxed beyond any other mercantile goods; in this—the ISth year of peace, they were still paying war taxes, which were laid on when the profits were large. In no instance now were the profits large, and in very many cases lotoes were experienced. It was the prevailing opinion that the conduct of the Government towards the West India Colonies was exceedingly harsh and impolitic, and parti- cularly in endeavouring to force on their legislature 3 the adoption of the Orders in Council. He regretted the aspersions which had at different times been cast on the West India proprietor?, and observed, that they naturally created feelings of irritation among some members of the different legislatures. The petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. A message from the Lords brought up several private Lord HOWICK brought up certain papers relative to the slave insurrection in Jamaica, which were ordered to be printed. Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a return of the number of freemen in each corporate town in Ireland returning Mem_ bets to serve in Parliament. THE SLAVE TRADE. Mr. F. BUXTON had a number of petitions to pre sent for the abolition of slavery in the eolonies,:but would only trouble the House with the two most , important ones. The first was from the congregations:of Dissen ters (Presbyterians, Independents, and Baptists) within twelve miles of London; that petition might! justly be considered as expressing the sentiments of the majority of Dissenters in the kingdom, the s,ciety frond which it had emanated having, as he understood, existed for one hundred years. The other was farm members of the Established Church, signed, amonc , others, by one Arch bishop an d t hi rty clergymen of the Diocese of Tuam. Mr. WILKS, as a member of the Di•sen!ers, declared that that body were unanimous in their desire for an eerly abolition of slavery. He knew for certain that the Methodists, at th - eir last convocation, had *.come te a resolution to impress upon all that hehinged to their body the necessity of withholding their sup port from any candid ite who Wee anxious for di e honour of a seat in that }souse, who would not first pledge himself lt.e Vise all reasonable means to effect tbe abolition of negro slavery, which they considered 61, 2re vest blot in the history of this country. Mr. F. BUXTON rose to bring forward his mo tion with regard to the question which had lately occupied the attention of the House, In that mo tion he had since the morning made an alteration therefore it would be as well that he should at once state to the House what the terms of his motion Were. He would move that a select committee be appointed to report what measures it would be expedient to take in order to abolish negro slavery, At the earliest possible moment. Before going into the general questi• n, he was obliged to say a few words in answer to the chservations of the Gallant Officer opposite—that Gallant Meriffier had stated that lie offered thes• obsereatioes in answer to a speech which he (Mr. F. B ) had made in that House three months ago. Ile could have wished that the Gallant Officer hail either been a little more rapid or a little more tardy, for the effect now was, that his mind was taken off the great matter which he had that evening taken in hand, in order that he might be able to answer what he considered a personal attack. The G rllant Officer hail alluded to the opinions expressed by a Reverend Prelate in the other House ; but he (Mr. B.) hail very great reason to complain of the conduct of that Bishop, not so much of him, as of the Society to which he belonged, which hail been for up wards of 100 years proprietors and dealers in slaves itself. An estate had been left to them for the purpose of their ameliorating the condition of the slaves and convert ing them to Christianity, and he believed that at this very time, at all events within these four years, there was hardly a Christian in the island on which that estate was situated. The Hon. Mem'aer then pro ceeded to observe, that be anticipated the success of his motion on account of the great change which public opi nion hail undergone upon this question within a very short period. He then referred to an article in a colonial paper, in ;chid, the writer contended that Government should take direct measures for the extinction of slavery, by granting compensation to the planters. For his part he had no objection to the planters obtaining what compensa tion they could from the Government, but he was stile that whatever the Government might owe them, his clients, the negroes, owed them nothing. He perfectly c oncurred with the writer in the colonial pap e r, th a t th e time had arrived when it was necessary to adopt direct measures fer the extinction of slavery. Mitigating measures had done something towards ameliorating the condition of the negro, but there was one feature in s'avery which mitigating mea sures would not touch, and it was this—that the labour of the slave was extorted by force. His proposition was, that the evils of slavery were of that magnitude, that we, as Christian people, could not tolerate them, but were im peratively bound to get rid of them, and the system which engendered them, at whatever cost and sacrifice. His mind had been brought to that conclusion from the consi deration of two or three facts. In the first place, the de crease of the slave population—the excess of deaths over births—had made a deep impression upon his mind. Un der a climate and a state of circumstances peculiarly fa vourable to the propagation of the negro race, the slave population had decreased to the extent of n 2,000 in the last eleven years. Another important circumstance was the number of stripes of the cart-whip inflicted upon slaves in the West India islands, which amounted to .2,000,000 annually. As no record of floggings was kept in the chartered colonies, he had formed his calculation from the record kept in Demerara, and he had every rea son to believe it was perfectly correct. The Hon. Member proceeded to make an enumeration of facts, in order to show that the slaves in Jamaica were subjected to much more severe treatment than the slaves in Demerara. As he h id taken the punishments in tha latter colony as the basis of his calculations, he conceived himself warranted in supposing that is estimate was rather tinder than above the mark. He then adverted to the instrument of punish ment, the cart-whip, the use of which he considered to tally inconsistent with the principles of justice and huma nity. On this point he would cite the authority of a de cided enemy to his own views,—namely, the authority of Mr. Barrett, a planter, who declared in the House of As sembly in Jamaica, that 39 lashes with the cart-whip could be rendered more excruciating than 500 stripes with the cat-o'-nine-tails. If such were the punishments in flicted on the slaves, he insisted that he had a right to designate the system as most execrable, and to call upon his Majesty's Government to grant a Committee to consi der the subject. The moral degradation of the negro slaves was likewise, in his opinion, a very cogent reason for effecting the change he advocated. To illustrate the depth of that degradation, he would refer to a letter of the Hon. Member for Bramber, which he found pub lished among some official documents. The Honour able Gentleman was arguing against the admissibility of slave evidence, and he asserted, as a reason for re• jectine it, that not one of a thousand negroes were ca pable of understanding the obligation of an oath. Now he (Mr. Buxton) begged to remark, that while there was no objection to receive the testimony of an African so long as lie was wild and savage, it was rejected the moment he came under the tuition of those whose views were sup ported by the Hon. Gentleman. Of one thing he was certain, that if proceedings were not taken for the rapid extinction of slavery, the West India colonies England could not retain. How would gentlemen propose to act in the event of a war with France, or an insurrection of the slaves ? With respect to the latter contingency, he would quote the words of Jefferson, who said that he had " thought of revolution of the slaves a thousand times, and if it occurred lie trembled for his country, for God had no attribute that could side with them in the struggle."— ( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member concluded by moving " That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon the measures expedient to be adopted for pro. perly effecting the extinction of slavery throughout the British dominions at the earliest period compatible with the safety of all classes in the colonies." Mr. O'CONNELL seconded the motion. Mr. CRESSET PELHANI said, that the speech of the Han. Member for Weymouth appeared to him diametrically opposed to the object he desired to accomplish. He would maintain that the sufferings of the slaves had been greatly exaggerated, and with respect to the alleged want of ri.- ligious instruction, he believed that there were more Christians among the blacks than were contained in this metropolis.--(" Hear," and a laugh.) Mr. STRICKLAND thought, that, without some se rious injury to the West India proprietors, some great and decisive measure could not be longer withheld. The Com mittee moved for by the Hon. Member for Weymouth was, in his opinion, the best mode of setting about a sa tisfactory arrangement. He considered it desirable that emancipation should really commence, accompanied cer tainly by proper precautions : but that it should not be further delayed, nor the feelings of the people of England any longer trifled with. He had an opportunity of ascer taining the sentiments of a vast number of people, and he was justified in stating that he knew of no subject that had awakened a higher degree of excitement in the pubic mind than the subject before the House—excitement which even the momentous topic of Reform had not overpowered. He fully admitted that the West India Interests should be as dear to England as any of the great interests of the em pire, but he denied the inference generally drawn from this proposition, and he could not sanction the opinion that the welfare of these interests was identified with the conti nuance of slavery. Had slavery been found at the present day existing in any corner of Great Britain, would not the legislature have promptly extinguished it ? and why should a different course of action be taken with regard to the colonies? He hoped that the House world unite as one roan in the determination that the oppressed should go free. Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, thatgentlemen on his side had just grounds of complaint against the Hon. Member for Weymouth, who had unexpectedly altered the terms of his motion. With regard to the motion itself, he did not think they were called upon to legislate on statements so exaggerated as those brought forward by the Hon. Gentle man. The flame had passed certain resolutions in 1823, and it was:incumbent on the Hon. Gentleman to have shown where the intentions of the Government had been fulfilled and where they had not been fulfilled, If the proposition before the house were assented to, the resolutions and Orders in Council would be of necessity superseded—an innovation that must prove extremely detrimental to thoFc interests which the Hon. Member had professed himself so desirous to protect. The decrease in the slave popula tion had been adverted to, but he denied that the lion. Member had fairly stated that he (Mr. Keith Douglas) was aware lie had the means of fairly stating—namely., the t, ue causes of the great decrease of the slave popu I lion in the colonies ; and he would add, that he who drew up such a statement as that laid before the Ii us,, and presented it to the public, knew that he was not giving an accurate representation of facts. In 1807, those who had property in the colonies had authorised the importation of a large number of males, but of very tow females. M toy of these had grown old and died, and this, in a very considerable degree accounted for the state of society of which the Hon. Gentleman complained. In 1817 there was, it appeared, a great excess of males over females, but in 1827, in many of the colonies, particularly in Barbados, there was an excess of female. • over males. If the Hon. Member had meant to treat thi • subject wigs fairness and candour, he would not have omitted to stab these facts. The grounds that were ad vanced for going into a committee appeared to him to be • en! irely insufficient. The proper mode for the Govern ment to pursue was to follow up the resolution of 1823; • or, if a committee were formed, it ought to be for the put pose of inquiring what had !seen done in furtherance ot, resolutions. He hoped that Ministers would feel it to be their nuts to act up to the spirit of those resolutions, and to preserve the prop , sty, interests, and welfare of all parties who were interested in those possessions.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman corn plained that nothing had been done to ameliorate the con dition of the slaves. Now how stood the fact ? Mr. (now Lord) Brougham had said, that the best that could be done for the slaves would be to establish a system of good slave evidence t and a measure had been introduced for that purpose in Jam tica. The coloured population was also highly favoured ; so much so, that he believed • two gentlemen of colour were at present members of the House of Assembly. He hoped that his Majesty's Go vernment would not lightly abandon the spirit of the re solutions of 1823 for the purpose of adopting a new system. Mr. MACAULEY said, the Hon. Gentleman who had • just sat down had asserted that the statements of the Hon. Mover were unsound. Now he was, on the contrary, convinced, that the Hon. Mover's statements and his rea soning were indefeasible. His statement of the dispropor tion of the sexes, and the inference to be drawn from th e fact, were most correct. With resp.•ct to the observation of the Hon. Member as to the increase of the slave popu. lation in Barbados, he believed that that dircutnstanc e was attributable to the restricted cultivation of sugar in that island. In Berbice, D-rnerara, and Trinidad, there had not only been a general decrease of the slave popula tion, but a very great decrease of women. The Hon. Member seemed to think that it was quite enough if he could prove that there was no decrease of population_. that it was sufficient for his purpose if the population re mained stationary. But he would maintain, that popula tion, under a proper system, ought to be rapidly increasing in (heir colonies. Those colonies were prodigal of the unmans of subsistence,—the climate was perfectly suited to the bi Irk inhabitants,—and therefore he would maintain, that this ought to be the golden age of population in those islands. Wherever any thing like such advantages existed, they would observe the population increasing yearly. Let them look to New South Wales—a co lony originally of thieves and prostitutes. There the population was increasing in an extraordinary de gree, and those who went out as convicts would be hereafter the patriarchs of a mighty empire. The history of the United States was well known. Day after day an immense mass of life and civilization was advancing into the wilderness. That the population should continue stationary was of itself an irrefragable proof of the evils of slavery; but when the population was a'iso lotely decreasing, the fact was still more apparent. The Irish peasantry increased,—the Russian boors increased. In the Bermudas and the Bahamas, where no sugar was manufactured, the population went on increasing. But when they came to these sugar islands, the ordinary law of n•tture was inverted, and, in proportion to the exuber ance of the soil, was the curse of suffering and of death.— (Hear, hear.) In these islands, which were subject to one eternal reign of terror, human life flickered and went out like a candle in a mephitic atmospher e . What the Spaniards did on the continent for gold, they were doing in the islands for sugar. He should give his utmost sup port to the motion of his Hon. Friend. Sir R. PEEL said, admitting that the decrease of po pulation was a proof of the evil complained of, still, if they were not prepared with some practical plan for the purpose of remedy in.. it, he concei ve d t h it i t was useless to indulge in ' those eloquent denunciations which they had that evening heard. The events which had recently occurred in the West Indies, and espe cially in Jamaica, roust prove to them that they stood in a very delicate situation when they were about to make rules for the guidance of those who were at a great distance from this country. They ought, therefore, to act with great caution and circumspection, not only for the good of the proprietors, but of the slaves themselves. Nothing could he more repugnant to humanity than by adopting resolutions which might be misunderstood, to incite those slaves to resistance, and then, with their artillery, to sweep them from the face of the earth. Now, pass those resolutions as they might, if they were misin terpreted, and that insubordination was the consequence, they could take but one course to vindicate the law.— • (Hear, hear.) The resolution before them set forth, " 'That it is the duty of the British Legislature to put an end to the existence of slavery throughout the dominions of Great Britain ;" and it went on to declare, " that a select Committee be appointed to consider and report upon the safest and speediest mode of effecting the ex tinction of slavery throughout the British colonies." The National Convention had adopted a proposition of pre cisely the same nature. On the sth of February, 1794., they declared, " that negro slavery, in all the colonies of Franc, was abolished ;" and declared " all men of colour domiciled within the French colonies to be entitled to the rights of Frenchmen." A Committee was appointed "to make a report on the measures necessary to be taken for the total extinction of slavery." The present course was exactly the same. It was declared that slavery should be extinguished ; and that a Committee should he ap pointed to consider of the means of effecting that object. n his opinion his Majesty's Government ought to state the course which they meant to pursue.—( Hear, bear.) Since the resolutions of 1823 a certain order in council had been sent forth, which was to be enforced in the Crown colonies ; and it was signified to those colonies which had independent assemblies, that this order must be accepted without condition, or they should be subjected to higher duties than would be demanded from those by whom it was obeyed. Up to the 14th of March, 1832, his Majesty's Government remained deter mined to enforce that order. Ile therefore asked, whether any change had since taken place in their determinatio n ? If none had taken place, then, to agree with this motion, would virtually be to supersede what they had contem plated on the 14th of March, 1632. It should also be observed, that a Committee of the House of Lords was now sitting on this subject, with the sanction of the King's ti,Go vernment.eirLord i They ig k ht new be n ; o a t o d w t l , 7 t is( t i h o p e t d t e h t e e r r fi n r i sntatpiaornt of this resolution would be to set themselves wholly at vari ance with the instructions contained in the resolution ap pointing the Committee of the House of Lords, which was to inquire as to what had been done for the amelioration of the slaves, under the resolutions of 1823. He could not agree to this abstract resolution, which declared that an act ought to be done, without stating the way in which it was to be effected. It was the very worst mode of pro ceeding that could be adopted. The Committee would, of course, he composed of prrtisans on both sides ; and he saw little chance of their coming to an amicable arrange ment. In what manner the extinction of slavery could be best effected, and what was likely afterwards to be the state of society in those colonies where it bad so long prevailed, were subjects to which he must give his most solemn and Serious attention, before he agreed to a resolution which declare d at once that slavery should be abolished. Ministers ought either to adopt the course pursued in the House of Lords, and inquire into what had been done under the re solutions of 1823 to ameliorate the condition of the slaves, or they ought to take the subject wholly into their own hands, and state plainly what they meant to do. Lord ALTHORP said, that if his Hon. Friend (Mr. Buxton) had advanced an abstract proposition, that slavery should be abolished, unaccompanied with anything else, then he ehould agree with the Right Hon. Baronet that it would he highly objectionable. But that was net the case. The resolution went on to call for the appointment of a committee to inquire into the safest and speediest mode 2t when s e resolutionsob theobject e avowed v o could were adopted udl a e e e w of extingui s hi ng s l avery . Thi s was not at all at variance itt)lipttel:l by eretshoeluitlioonosse ° a that f t it 83. i mhe Those witho that ob ject of xtinguishing slavery, w properly and prudently effected. Therefore the present motion was not inconsistent with the proceedings which the House had hitherto adopted on the subject, it being the object of the House to consider how, and by what means, slavery could safely he abolished. The object of the resolutions of 1823, was the amelioration of the slave, and such, in this instance, would be the object of inquiry in the committee ? Where, thee, was the inconsistency ? There was a committee appointed in the House of Lords to investi g ate this subject, with t h e acquiescence of his Majesty's Government ; and they had acquiesced in that Committee because they were assured that its labours would be directed to the consideration of the best mode o 1 ameliorating the condition of the slave. N,aw, as their Lordships had a committee, he thought that, so far front being an objection, was an argument in support of the ap pointment of a committee of the House of Commons. The resolution nf the House of Lords set forth that an inquiry should be made into the best mod e of ameliorating the condition of the slave with " a due consideration of the interests of all parties." The present resolution certainly did not contain that provision ; but, looking to the speech of his Hon. Friend, and of all those who had taken that s id e o f t h e question, he was convinced that due•considera tion would be given to those interests. Ile would not pledge himself to any immediate abolition of slavery, be • cause lie did not think that the sl we population was in a situation to receive that bowl beneficially for themselves,— (Hear, hear.) But he thought that the legislature migh• employ itself most usefully in bringing the slaves to sucl a state of moral feeling as would be suitable to the pro posed alteration in their condition. They would thus In performing an important duty, and achieving that whicl was due to humanity and justice. He could not see any objection to the insertion of the words proposed by tlo Hon. Gentleman opposite, and he could not see how his Hon. Friend (the Member for Weymouth) could object t“ them, as he admitted that the colonists would have a fair! claim to compensation if they should be injured by any . measures which should be taken for the abolition of slavery. It was most desirable that upon a question such as this. as little difference should prevail as possible—(Hear, hear)—and if his Hun. Friend would agree to the inser tion of the words suggested in his resolution, his doing so would conciliate all parties to the appointment of the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) Sir G. MURRAY admitted that there could he nothing more deplorable than the existence of slavery, anti that there could be nothing more desirable than its abolition ; but at the same time he would contend, that whatever measures should be adopted for the purpose of changing the condition of the population of the West Indies from that of slaves to that of freemen, should be taken with the greatest caution, prudence, and deliberation. It appeared to him that the best course to pursue was to keep such a question as this as much as possible in the hands of the Government. He conceived that if the Government were sincere—and he had no doubt that they were—in their desire to put an end to slavery, they would adopt measures for that purpose in due accordance with the safety of all existing interests in the West Indies ; and, for his part, he thought that there could be nothing more imprudent or dangerous than to take such a matter out of the hands of the Government anti put it into the hands of the House of Common,. A committee on the state of the West Indies had b en already appointed in the Lords, and he did not see why a committee on the same subject should he ap pointed in this House on directly different principles. They possessed sufficient information as to the existence of slavery to proceed with the abolition of it with caution and prudence. He thought it would be most imprudent in the present state of the Wt,st Indies to conic to such a resolution as that proposed by the Hon. Member, anti that its adoption by that House might be productive of the most dangerous consequences in those colonies. On these grounds he should oppose it, at the same rime that be should be most anxious to see that most desirable object, the utter extinction of slavery, effected, whenever it could be effected with safety to the persons and properties of the West India proprietors. He had never been guid, din his course while in office by the popularity which might be acquired on this subject, nor had he been influenced by the excited speeches made out of doors on the subject ; and he trusted his Majesty's present Ministers would be also proof against such a strong temptation. Mr. F. BUXTON said, that he had deliberately con sidered the suggestion t.) which his Noble Friend (Lord Althorp) had drawn his attention, and that upon mature conviction be was determined to oppose the introduction of the, words proposed. He should divide, even if alone, on the point. Lord HOW ICK expressed the gratification with which he had listened to the manly and honest declaration of the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer (S r George Murray) as to the necessity of the utter extinction of slavery, a senti ment in which he cordially concurred, and which was the snore refreshning after the speech of the Right H. n. B tronet (Sir R. Peel), from which it was impossible to gather whether or not he was opposed to the permanent conti nuance of slavery. He 'lid not think that it would be impossible, after due consideration, to devise a system for the abolition of slavery, in which both the Hon. Member for Weymouth and those connected with the West Indies would concur. He agreed with the Right lion. Gentle man in thinking that this matter should as much as pos sible be kept in the hands of the Government. The Go vernment had acted upon that principle ; but the dith culties with which they had to contend in this instance were to be attributed to that system of delay to which all the after difficulties which they had to meet were tole attributed. In 1823, when the pi iss . ons were not excited so much as they were now, a settlement of this question was practicable, but the Right Hon. Baronet op posite and his colleagues then shrank from the responsi bility of effecting such a settlement, and that was the true source of the difficulties with which the present Govern ment had to contend in dealing with this question.— (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet disclaimed being actuated with the spirit of party on this subject, but he had certainly been under the influence of a stationary spirit with regard to it. While on the Treasury Bench he was alive to the difficulties which surrounded the question ; but when he got to the opposite able of the House, in this as on other questions, he was ready to start objections to the course of Government. He violently resisted the settlement of the Catholic ques tion when Mr. Canning was in power, and yet, in two years after, the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed that very measure which he had opposed in the time of Mr. Coi ning, and he then himself refuted the nugatory arguments which he had at that period offered in opposition to it.— (Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet was a waiter upon time, and he left to others to clear the road of all the dif ficulties that might beset it. The Order in Council which had been issued by his Majesty's Ministers was founded upon precisely the same principles as those Orders in Council to which the Right Hon. Baronet had been a party. After eight years of discussion, it would have been mere trifling on the part of the Government to have asked the legislative colonies to adapt the resolutions of 1823, without coming forward with some measure to induce them to do so. He hoped the appointment of this Com mittee would lead to a favourable result, and he could not see that the appointment of it would at all supersede the Order in Council. The result of the labours of the Com mittee, he trusted, would be to advise the legislative colo nies to adopt the Order in Council, and to devise better and more effectual means for putting an end to slavery. The measures which had been taken in the Crown colo nies for the amelioration of the condition of the slaves had been productive of the best effects, as was proved by the alteration in the rate of mortality among the slave po pulation of those islands. The Noble Lord here read a ta'iular return, from which it appeared that in the crown colony of St. Lucia the decrease in the population, from 1819 up to 1825, was at the rate of eight in every thou sand ; whereas, in the three years subsequent to the adop tion of the measures for ameliorating the condition of the slaves in that colony, instead of a decrease there had been an increase in its population at the rate of five and a half in every thousand. It appeared from tie same return, that in the legislative colony of Jamaica, in the first six years he had referred to, the decrease in the population had amounted to 8,436, being about one sixth in every thousand, and that in the subsequent period of three years, the ameliorating measures not having been adopted in that island, the decrease had amounted to the enormous extent of 7,229, being an annual average de crease of about 4 1-6th in every thousand. That state ment afforded a proof of the hood effects which had fol. lowed from the measures taken for ameliorating the condi tion of the slaves,—measures which had been taken with as much caution arid prudence as the most timid amongst the West India body could desire ; and he trusted that tl e committee which would be now appointed might devise some means by which the certain, thought not perhaps early, extinction of slavery might be effectel. Sir R. PEEL complained of the ungenerous attack which hail been made upon him by the Noble Lord—an attack which be was precluded from answering by the rules of the House on the present occasion. The Noble Lord, instead of attacking others, had enough to do in de fending the colonies from the dangers of that situation into which he and his Government had brought them.— (Cries of " Spoke.") He should confine himself, then, to explanation. He denied that he had objected to the Order in Council ; and he maintained that he hid said nothing from which it could be inferred that he was not impressed with as sincere a desire as the Noble Lord for the ultimate extinction of slavery, when it could be effected with security to the persons and properties of the West India proprietors. Lord SANDON said, that he felt it his duty to move an amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Wey mouth, that in his resolution, after the word '' safety," ihere should be inserted the words " of the interests of all parties concerned ;" and that at the end of the resolu tion the following words should be inserted :—" And in conformity with the resolutions of the 15th May, 1823." He had in his possession at present a petition from a great body of his constituents—from men of all interests, East West India, and North America —praying that the House would appoint a Committee to inquire into the sub ject before it adopted any sudden measure with regard to the West Indies. He trusted that the principle of con ciliation would be adopted on all sides. He had not en rolled himself amongst the abolitionists, because he saw so much party spirit, so much misrepresentation, and so much more of animosity towards the p:anters, than of charity to the slaves amongst them ; and he was aware• that if he had so enrolled himself he should have been answerable for such proceedings.—( Hear, hear.) Lord ALTHORY said, that he had already suggested to the Hon. Member for Weymouth to introduce the words, the introduction of which the Noble Lord who had just sat down had moved. He agreed with the Noble Lord in thinking that it would be desirable that some such word, should be introduced into the resolution, but he thought the latter part of the Noble Lord's amendment amply sufficient—namely, the intro l uation of the words " it conformity with the resolutions of the 15th of May, 182,3," for those resolutions embraced all the objects the Noble Lord had in view. Sir R. PEEL thought that some words implying th. t the interests of the planters should be protected ought to be introduced into the resolution. Sir C. WETHERELL said, that he felt it necessary to vindicate his Right Hon. Friend near him, and those who acted with him on the question of Catholic Emancipation. from one of the most extraordinary attacks which , mirky the circumstances of the case, he had ever heard made upon a public man. He thought th a t a more conc i liatory speech than that delivered by his Right Hon. Friend could not easily be imagined ; nevertheless, it bad called from the Noble Under-Secretary for the Colonies a speech, than which any thing more insulting, more provoking, more unstatesmanlike, had never fallen from a gentleman bold ing an official situation, whether young in office or old in office.—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had don e th e u t most in his power to provoke an angry discussion. The qu s tion before the House bad never been considered as a party question ; but the Noble Lord had done every thing in his power to make it, by interweaving with the dis cuss i on the angry topics of Catholic Emancipation and Parlia mentary Reform.—(Elear.) This, it must be acknow ledged, was the reverse of pouring oil upon the angry waters.—(A laugh.) The Noble Lord had not been long in office, and therefore he would take the lib er t y o f advising him, the next time the question of slavery was introduced, and there appeared a disposition on hot% sides of the House to proceed pari passe, not, as far as he was concerned, to let any thing occur on the part of the Go vernment to prevent the question from having a safe and easy passige. The Noble Lord said that his Right Hon. Friend was a standing-still man. Now he thought that the Noble Lord was a man of movement. It his Right Hon. Friend stood still, he was sure that the colo nists would not stand still when they heard the Noble Lord's language. If ever there was an incentive to the co lonies to throw off their allegiance, it was to be found in the provoking speech of the Noble Undsr-Secretary. It was evidently the intention of the Noble Lord to put a con struction up in the proceedings of the Hou.e which the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Mem ber for Liverpool deprecated. When the Noble Lord at tacked his Right Hon. Friend for standing still, he begged him to take care that he did not proceed too fast, for be (Sir C. Wetherell) did not hesitate to assert, that in the present state of the West Indies, a declaration of the House of Commons in f +your of ur qualified emancipation would be the signal for revolt. The Noble Lord was not cor rect in his history, when he asserted that all the Cabinets which had existed since Mr. Canning's had stood still upon the question of emancipation. That was not the case. Considerable advances had been made towards earring into effect the r eso l u ti ons o f 1823 ; a n d if the Noble Lord would refer to the office in which he lid 4 a situation, he would find that the question of emancipation had not stood still, but had been advanced by different secretaries with a bona fide progression, and with as much expedition as was comp tilde o ith the cautious course recommended by Mr. Canning's resolutions. The motion had been seconded in a speech which he would not call the movement of sedition, but the movement of elo quence. seconder The this—that teas ro posi tio because of the slavery Hon. a sand abhorrent Learned t o religion and the British Constitution, it ought therefor e t o be immediately abolished. That, however, was a fall acy . Others regulated the principle by historical experi ence , which proved that no instantaneous transition fro m s l avery proposition to freedom could be effected without producing mischiefs which would nearly co untedialance the blessing of liberty. The amendment had introduced into the original proposi• tion a qualification of a very valuable nature,—namely that emancipation was not to be carried into effect at any particular time, but only when it could be done con sistently with the safety and the interests of the persons connected with the West Indies. The Noble Lord cor rectly and properly stated, that though the motion, as amended, did not in terms pledge the Government t,) grant compensation to the planters, yet it admitted the principle of compensation. He was much disposed to think that it would have been better had the question been left in the hands of Government, instead of being placed in those of a committee.—(Hear.) There was reason to fear that a committee would not exercise sufficient caution in the con sideration of this most important and (lac ite subject. The Noble Lord Althorp had not joined in the taunts which hisNobleColleague had thrown out against these whom he accused of standing still, but he nevertheless approved of the appointment of a committee. Upon that point he disagreed with the Noble Lord, but he entirely approved of the amendment which he had proposed, pledging the House not to authorize any attempts at sudden emancipa tion, but only a course of proceeding in conformity with the resolutions of Mr. Canning. With all due deference to the abolitionist party—to the piety or saintship of one class, the eloquence of another, arol the eagerness of a third —it was his opinion that the idea of the immediate eman cipation of the slave population of the West India colooits was an absurdity. He trusted the Government of this country would never sanction a course of conduct with re spect to the colonies, which would operate like the famous proclamation of the French Convention, in which they pro claimed freedom among the slaves of the colonies. He was as willing as any person to abolish slavery, but lie would not do so at the cost of the destruction of life and property. The question of emancipation involved not only the manumission of slaves, but a consideration of the in terests of the great branches of trade which had grown out of the system of slavery. As it appeared to be the wish of the House not to divide, he hoped that the Hon. Member for Weymouth would be induced to agree to the amend ment proposed. The Hon. Member at first seemed disin clined to allow his motion to be modified at all. In the cant phrase of the day, he would hare emancipation, in stant emancipation, and nothing but emancipation. If the Hon. Member's wishes were carried into effect, our colonies would exhibit a scene of horror similar to that which the French colonies presented at the commencement of the revolution. Having vindicated his Right Hon. Friend from the furious and unjust attack of the Noble Lord, he would conclude with giving his support to the amendment. Mr. HUME said, that the present question, more than any, required to be discussed without any admixture of angry feeling, and therefore he extremely regretted th it any thing like intemperate conduct should have been dis played upon the occasion. If it tv,s intended that the stain of slavery should be wiped from England, as he thought every freeman would desire it to be, they should avoid all irritating language, which would only exasperate those whose sole p roperty, unfortunately for themselves, consisted in slaves. He was extremely happy to find that the Noble Lord opposite was determined to limit the reso lution before the House to the objects which the House of Commons, in 1823, pledged itself to effect. The resolu tion, as amended, was perfectly consistent with Mr. Can ning's resolutions, and he was surprised that any person who read those resolutions, and particularly the last of them, should object to the introduction of the words pro posed by the Noble Member for Liverpool. He believed that the condition of the slaves had been considerably ame liorated in consequence of the resolutions passed in 1823. He lamented to hear the statement of the Hon. Member for Weymouth, as to the extent to which punishment was carried. There was, however, no reasoning upon the subject. Experience proved the impmsibility of a state of slavery existing without some means of compelling labour. What was the ground upon which military lligging in free states, and applied to free men, was defended ? Neces,ity! He denied the existence of the necessity; but if flogging in the case of free men could find advocates op the plea of necessity, how was it possible to dispense with corporal punishment in the case of slaves? The Hon. Member for Weymouth properly defined slavery when he said that it was a system which insured the proprietor the labour of his slave. In discuss ing the question o f s l avery, i t was advisable to discard all topics of an irritating nature, and to have in view th.. amelioration of the condition of their slaves, in all their measures, as much as possible. lie thought it quite pos aible that m easures m i ght be adopted for the ultimate abo lition of slavery, a g reea bl y to t h e resolutions of the ]louse, consistently with the welfare of the slaves, and the inte rests of the proprietors. He would not yield to the Hon. Member for Weymouth in a desire to see the slave popu lation free; but he thought that they would not consult either the happiness of the slave or the interests of the proprietor by immediate emancipation. Slavery was an evil which had un f or t una t e ly gro wn up under laws which we had sanctioned, and practices lung continued. The wise course was, not to consider slavery as an abstract question, but to look at it as it existed under these cir cumstances, and reflect whether any sudden change was likely t o p rove b ene ficial either to the slaves or their mas ters. Admitting the decrease of the slave population as m i stated by the Hon. Member for Wey outh, t by no means followed that this decrease was the consequence o a state of slavery. It might be accounted for by other circumstances. He was informed that there were special reasons for the decrease in De merara, to which the Hop. Member particularly referred. It appeared, by the same returns from which the Hon. Member quoted, that in Barbados, which produced 220,000 cwt, of sugar, and was, in in thefct fact, fourth o pu olratfiioftnil in iadtheinchrta list of sugar planta tion,ed by 9,000 or 10,000 during the sa m e period in which th e population of Demerara had decreased 10,000 or 12,000. Result. so different under apparently the same circumstances rt aaaoeurp (wired another explanation than that which the. Hon; Nlember for Weymouth had given. It had been stated in evidence before a Committee of this House, that the decease of population in Demerara hail been gradually diminishing from 1825 up to the present moment, and that now there was no decrease at all. This was a point of the utmost importance, to which the attention of the Committee should be specially directed. The witness to whose evidence be had alluded, stated that the time would soon arrive when there would be an increase of the slave population in Demerara. This evidence, which was that of a parson perfectly conversant with the subject, was in flat contradiction to the statement of the lion. Member fur Weymouth. At all events, it proved that further in quiry was necessary before the House adopted the views of the Hon. Member. The most prudent course which the Ilou , e could pursue was to adopt the amendment proposed by the Noble Lord, which was in strict con formity with the principles whiCh hail been confirmed again and again in that House. In the present state of the colonies, nothing should be done which was calculaid to excite irritation. If the resolutions of the Hon. Mein her for Weymouth should be carried, they would pro duce a feeling amongst the colonists which would render them indisposed to adopt any measures recommended by this country. It must he evident to the colonists that there existed an overwhelming desire on the part of the people of England that throughout the British pos sessions every man should he free ; and he believed that. they would yield to that desire; but again, he would repeat, that the work of emancipation must he gradual, in order to insure the happiness of the slaves and the interests of the planters, and of the country. Mr. G. KNIGHT declared himself to he a strenuous supporter of emancipation ; but lie feared, if an attempt were made to eff-ct this object before the slaves were pre pared to enjoy liberty, scenes of bloodshed and massacre would occur in our colonies similar to those which had taken place in St. Domingo, the history of which colony he thought should operate as a warning to both planters and slaves. Mr. EVANS said the unfortunate transactions which occurred at St. Domingo were not the consequence of the emancipation of the slaves, but the result of an attempt to reduce those who were emancipated to a state of slavery again. He regretted exceedingly that the Noble Lord should have brought forward his amendment on the motion of his Hon. Friend, which should have his vote if his Hon. Friend called for a division of the House. Mr. O'CONNELL, in rising to deliver his sentiments upon this important question, would carefully abstain front the adoption of any language that might hurt the feelings of Hon. Members whose views were opposed to his own. The right of compensation he denied upon two distinct grounds,—first, upon the principle that no man could rea sonably claim compensation for surrendering that which inflicted wrong upon his fellow-creature; and, secondly, because be was of opinion that no case for compensation would arise, for they di.l not wish to deprive the W e st India proprietors of their houses and estates ; they simply required them to cultivate their lands as lands were culti vated in this country, by free labour, which, he contended, would be productive of gain instead of loss. With respect to the N b!e Lord's proposition, he must object to it as it source of delay, of which they had ample experience already. He was for throwing overboard the resolutions of 1823, which had been brought forward by a Minister not ree workable for the sincerity of his devotion to the cause of freedom, and were only calculated to delude the public and procrastinat e the adju , tment of the question. The propos sition of his Hon. Friend the Member fur Weymouth env braced emancipation coupled with safe , y, and upon that score was liable to no otjection. He implored the Noble Lord (Altborp) to grant a Committee on the principle laid down his Hon. Friend, out of consideration for the general voice of the people of England, which it would prove vain to resist, as the time would shortly arrive when a more popular House of Commons would be returned, with its Members deeply pledged to the abolition of slavery. No ch .nge in the r« presentation was necessary in Ireland, for all ti e Irish _Members, with the exception, he believed, of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Armagh (Mr. Goulburn), were unanimous upon the question. The danger to the planters, he was prepared to maintain, lay, not in the abolition but in the continuance of slavery,—in the existence of a system that made its victims consider life a burden, and death desirable. The is solutions of 1823 had done their business. The country had been long enough deluded, and it was time that the pople should know that the slave was to be emancipated. Let England perform her act of retribution to the slaves, and she would make it impossible for the Americans, the Spaniards, or any other n ition, to continue the reign of oppression. He hoped that the Noble Lord would not persevere in pressing his amendment, I ut if he were resolved to do so, he trusted that his Hon. Friend would take the sense of the House upon the question. Mr. A. BARING said, it was easy to declaim vaguely, as the Hon. and L earne d G entleman (Mr. O'Connell) had done, against granting compensation to the West India proprietors ; but it should he borne in mind that when compensation was demanded, it was for that which the legislature of this country had treated as property for long series of years. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself admitted that by the adoption of free labour no 1 injury would result to the planter. Now if such were the; fict, upon what plea cot-C(1 the Hon. and Learned Member object to the addition of the word " compensation" to the resolution ?—( Hear.) In his opinion, however, the in• terests of the West India proprietors formed the smallest part of the consideration in the question of compensation ;I for, looking merely to the profits of the estates, it would require very little money to make an equivalent for their relinquished profits. But who, he would ask, could make adequate compensation to the shipping and other great in' terests of the country, whose property was so closely cons nected with the colonies ?—(Hear.) The feeling that was abrwal among the people of England on the subject of slavery—a feeling grievous in its origin —would not, he was well aware, he satisfied save by the surrender of the colonies. But he would venture to say, that when the colonies were gone from us, and the eyes of the country opened, then a bitter day would arrive for the nation, and gentlemen little anticipated how the change would be felt in every town in the kingdom, and among our interests, both commercial and agricultural. It was clear, froth their trading relations, that when the West Indic islands were gone, our American colonies would soots follow. He was every way inclined to speak w ith respect of the efforts of those persons who hi their perseverance had succeeded in ameliorating the condition of the slaves, and he believed that by pot: suit g temperate measures they might yet effect much goof , and at no very distant period effect the emancipation of th e negio Still he could not assent to all the statements they had put forth, nor agree to their consequent deductions' The Hun. Member for Weymouth had produced a calculi' tion of the amount of the annual punishment by the whiP in the whole of the West India islands, which he rated ' C 2,000,000 of lashes. Now, supposing that the calculatiol i were accurate, what did it amount to ? Why that this extent of corporal punishment being distributed among 800,000 persons, left about two stripes for each individual negro. He would admit the principle that the free 1 ihourer was a cheaper servant than a slave.—(Hear , hear.) Instead of feeding and taking care of a mans.' I aving out of view the original outlay of capital—it would' he granted, be most desirable for the planter to substitute l gratified if a Committee could hold out to the house and t t ne Countrypa m n t a of wages sv h o o g pee , emiepspnxstrrnoculethtpiidetioeenety,nnny,tecioleydof:ut,slhidlibaeeevnt:ovittoahlsngaa.ibtecAoeouitnesrh:,,,leiienbwl convinced reiv i ihfl ohei white o teht p :la e ,met , e —ye price Weymouth, f oie wcytuehot would h e uo y ,i fdb p e r bsc o eua c gu e eo a e proceeded i e nhg d wteeudo w o ti t y:p b reckless impetuosity, —if what was called freedom prove t freedom from labour,—then the result would, he ar Dave the islands, and we should be necessitated to take in,. article o i.le f ea e r • n x s e t go e extensive o s oe i uvs.re own nme colonial wo n l e oo r un . be doubled or trebled in Jamaica. if they acted inv persuaded o cause ni o more of i t n h s e t a d n a t n oe Iftymaankdi of ands fcriieedael frrs:ol beneficialailtHt;eeftunoarr.nal.e. niagnnd alteration.choel o n should ies w which 0 g er the evil of prematurely proclaiming the extinction e, htBi sho is uld no . iuws nehe be s • ea a Pt ; misery e a r t aH h ant a eei n ocodnb la osj a te d tece:n o etd c do c i snt u ohg r o rr tobore n ill Virginian gentlemen, be hail a large number—should O e ion adopted the precaution of pinning After the will was opened, Mrs. Washington, by the ad' vice of some friends, ere she retired to rest for the night' o y d\ f i ov s , o a w ys t n h h h o i a n m t t gh t ' eto he l n ik r lsa e l vd i t b e, n a e . i t ri:; (Hear.) He would leave this anecdote to the understand' ing of the House. oafshrteilnio,lnateeaddgkdrei oun n igis f tlital : v V eAe a g lp s r_r : d .o i e n Washington's who specifie a Dr. LUSHINGION believed that but for the endea' yours of those persons who had laboured indefatigably t o ,. put the people of England in possession of the merits 0 ; the question, slavery, with all its admitted evils, would have continued unaltered up to the present hour. fbe Learned Gentleman contended, that the proprietors di` not feel, a s h a d been asserted, a sentiment of commisera tion for the slaves. And when it was said that if injurY were inflicted on them there was a mode of redress, b e denied the fact. In a ease which occurred last Novembe r ' where a person in power had inflicted injury on a slave, complaint was made to the Council of Protection, 1 1,4 dress was refused. He then alluded to the Jamaica Code, which was drawn up in a way to induce indivi duals to believe that its authors meant one thing, while''