The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-26 00:00:00

ani [ foca • harllngements. for that purpose . had Leen,eonfirtted ): the DireCtors. For 1803, the arrangements iv 're, that of Ships employed in the Expedition to E gypt,i t part was to return to the Port with which i n was connefled. That the Shipping employed the Red Sea, shOuld be employed to bring. He the P r iv a t e Trade of - India in i 893.— " e did not say t h ree years , b ut . two ; b ut t h a t it w ould he n ear t h ree y ear s before any new arrange nients would be necessary. But the East-India C ompany wished to be understood, that if there :as any deficiency of shipping, every thing in their r t o order will be done by them to-supply the deficiency, order to support the Private Trade of India. t Mr - s _7OIIN.STONE said, he was obliged by the : ( ntnunication of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He as sorry, however, to observe, that instead of th ree years, there were to be only three seasons, 4. 1 Which would amount to only two years and an Pi. However, he was glad there was this length ° pr ivate Trade. He wished, by the way, to have :reeolleEled, that this was no new plan, for it was ,Ylan which had been pursued with very little in_ tuption ever since the year 1798, and it was 7to ed h _ in 1796. Gentlemen had often stated, '''" tis ! in that House, but in other .places, that plan, if attempted to be carried into execu would be the ruin of the East-India Qmpany, but he defied them all to come forward I °w and prove it, or argue it. In a word, this was 1 plan approved by all the Servants of the Company rutoad, in opposition to the wishes of the Directory home. Here he quoted the opinions of several entlernen of great experience and merit in India :2, Favour of this plan for the support of the Private "Ade, and then proceeded to take notice of what feared to him to be a misunderstanding of the r ' .l 4kx.cELLoit of the EXCHEQUER, of the applica itc'nol the opinion of Mr. DUNDAS on thii matter, 6t that the extremity of which that Right Hon. t T l entleman aid experienced Statesmarieomplained in e opinions of opposite parties was, that the one said t i .e Monopoly of the East India Company should be • tel entirely open'•—The other, that it should be k4 de more close. It was between these extremes i il ' Lat Mr. DuNDA.s had said. a medium was the t—To support this, he read part of the opinion Mr. DUNDAs, as &livered upon this subject by L I-ter, an opinion which, he said; was worthy of the t ttntion and of the talents of that Right Hon. Gen. e lnan. He took notice c , f another •part of the Z"left ; in which he apprehehded the CHANCELLOR the EXCHEQUER WaSliOt-Well founded in his con ~uSioo, who seemed, he said, to.think the Private ' 4 Trade of India was a mere remittance Trade; he tt s siped. reasons for thinking otherwise; and pro s "ed to observe _ that there was a fallacy in the at eaterit that. British Agents in India were upon I the tame footing as Foreigners in this Trade ; for ' r 2kt - in:she case of the British Agents; Many and 7nsiderable cheeks, (which he enumerated) were vuserved, whereas there were none such With regard foreigners,. whOhad -therefore all the adv‘antages 'use British -Agents', which the difference betwith aecks-atx.l no .checks whatever could make: ;e r e wits -another subje& on which he wished ko . Ity . a few. words, the subjeet of Colonization-- a had been mentioned, and our -loss of it had Ten .hinted at as a lesson Upon the .subje4 of Colo ;'_lzationArnerica was along while, indeed, be iire she was severed from-this Country. He would o t say how long :we could expect to retain our 01 zinions ; but he was a bold and san_ ante MD, indeed, -who ,could expert our Empire kere to .continue for zoo years. It appeared to n to b e an Empire olopinion chiefly, inspired by the awe of our first Conquest. That it was our ;Merest not to pursue a Plan that might lead the ;atives to reflect upon their own strength, for hich he thought there .was no sound policy in ping a great many Europeans settled there, rather that the Plan of European Settlers could be discouraged, because this must have t e effeEt of teaching the Natives in time the i r ee of their own natural strength. He con_ e lided with observing, that there was one point hich was important to be ascertained, and upon iCli at present he felt a good deal of alarm—lt t not stated by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex bQuEit what system was to be followed when the 0 years which were to be devoted to this experi ot were expired. I :rhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose ' explain : he said, that he ought before to have 4 ' 'ated th e ter ms which the East India Company had ,ela te d t h emse l ves w illi ng to accede to. Ile then Le ad a p a p er , con taining the whole ok . ..those-terms, id concluded with saying, that it was the desire ,t 7 the East India Company to afford evcry conve , getic e to-the Private Trade, that was not-ineonsist- N with their undoubted rights and their most es tie ‘• • interests. ti na his ,CII' ,rth; s 0 ft • t 311 d in al c' ft; whr b /OH 2VSTONE said, he was obliged to the . `.',ight Hon. Gentleman for the explanation he had given, but he still wii3 of opinion, that if any ad \ a ntage .was,, • allowed to Foreign Flags, it would ti k . ntually deprive the Port of Lodon of that part ,tf the Trade It was far from his n wish to infringe \ ll l l lO- . O the rights, or to injure the interests . of the East rld la - Com pa n but he did not consider the pre sent Motion as having any such tendency. . the CH.INCELLOR.ofthe EXCHEQUER said tlll` Present was not a .final arrangement, but only basis of a Plan that might or might not hereafter ' 'lr. WALLACE said, be aid not think it neces • sa t YI after the discussion the Question had under , mcne, to enter into a minute consideration ofall the tf -&its of.the points in dispute between the Court Jireftors and the Merchants, nor did he think it h c 7 s saty io follow the Hon. Baronet through all v e _°bservations which he had made. The inquiry the HouseWascaileci upon to enter into, if ' - understood it, • was this, viz. that the - House Pid•asoertairr whether or not it was expedient to p 4li t of a 'Trade to India, exclusive of that carried by the capital of the East India Company, which t hqdt Was 'to be brought hOme by private Mer+ ant'Ships in East India built Ships. He confess_tit tha,„ he could not help 10 - okiit at a Motion that t : 4 ,,,tkeed - stich- extensive consequences with ,a k .- 7 4 1 ' 4 , , bit deg r ee of jealousy, because if this inquiry( z ei „enterecl into, there was hardly one single point 1 ` 4 2 1 r - to India which might not be lino. gbL, un. .or '~ h~° ;gib) o , ll° the 1;y • wl" of yd Soli ri(l6,J ;(1 1 0 ,- ffiCie ro CO34ll'l_, bi dreAlj der investigation by the present Motion, and ttere foie he could ndt giCe it his support: He laniented that upon a stlbjed \ of such importance, Men's minds had been so heated, and they- had gone into such extremes of opinion, that he was sure, that upon cool refleCtion, they would not adhere to them. He knew that on one side,. opinions were entertain ed., which, if they were carried into dila, Would tend to the utter destruCtionof the East India Com pany.—Undoubtedly, such sentiments could not be listened to in this House, and he only mentioned them to chew to what extremes, even sensible men might be carried, when they suffered their minds to be heated by controversy. The ground upon which he should give his vote, to-night, was this, that he did not conceive that sufficient reasons had been stated to induce the House to go into the Inquiry, and that he thought it was a direa attack upon the Charter of the East India Company. Perhaps the charge of inconsistency would be urged against him, when his present language was compared with the condua of the Board of Control, but he did not think that imputation could be justly made. From the documents which had been submitted to that Board, it appeared to them, that much im portant., matter was involved, and they sent for further information. In the mean time the Ho nourable Baronet applied to the House for Papirs, and they were ordered What then was the duty of the Board of Control ? Certainly not to prejudge the Question, but to leave it open for dis cusion, in order that it might undergo the most clear and unfettered investigation possible. Such was the opinion and the condua of the Board of Control upon this subject, and therefore, he felt himself perfealy at liberty to state, that in his opinion, it was improper to go into the Inquiry now proposed. He wished, however, to observe, that it never had been the wish of the Board of Control, to exceed the Powers which had been given them by Parliament ; but the Aa of 1793, did not put, it beyond the power of the Board of Control to interfere in Commercial Questions ; they certainly were precluded from interfering with the Trade carried on by the East India Company, but certainly not with that carried on by Indivi duals. In the course of this discussion, the opinion of Mr. DUNDAS had been referred to ; he certainly was disposed to pay as much respea as any man to the opinion of that Right Hon. Gentleman, but upon this occasion, the grounds of that opinion had not been stated, and upon a full consideration of the subject, he could not entirely assent to that authority for which no. reason had been assigned. On the other hand, however, he could not conceive how this could be stated by the Board of-Direaors as a mere commercial question; it certainly was not, and even in their own Report they had termed it, a Question of great National Policy. But it might be said, Why did you not oppose the produc- . tion of Papers ? In answer to that question he begged leave to observe, that it was at all times rather an upgracious measure to oppose the pro- , duaion of Papers, particularly if no injury could arise from their produaion ; but in the present instance,. it was from the produaion of the Papers that he was led to think that no further proceedings ought to take place. In his opinion very strong ground indeed ought to be laid to induce the House tit etittr into this Inquiry, and the Hon. Baronet whi3 had made the Motion had, as it appeared to him.; totally failed in laying any ground what ever. the Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to take a view of the affairs of the East India Company, after which he adverted to an observation which had fal len from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, respeaing the dangers of Colonization, in which he differed in some degree from his Right Hon. Friend. Fip was decidedly of opinion, that all the apprehen sions which were entertained about the danger of Colonization in India were perfetly chimerical, as long as this Country set its face against it. — He considered the case of India and America to be essentially different ; and even in the case of Ame rica, zoo years elapsed before this Country suffer ed any inconvenience from that quarter. As to what had been said about Lascars, and that they would . make representations in India about the sort of people they met with in Wapping, which repre sentations might be prejudicial to the British Power in India, he considered it as too childish to be en titled to a moment's consideration ; but with re gard to the employment of Foreign Sailors, he thought it a subject more deserving of attention, because he should be ' extremely sorry if they were to be employed to the exclusion of British Sailors. That, however, was an event of which he did not think there._ was any great danger. — He-concluded with saying, that he , considered the British Power in India as most intimately conneded with the existence of the East India Company ; but even if it were not, he should be sorry to see the power now possessed by that Company in the hands of Government, because he conceived that it would create a Power extremely dangerous to the Consti tution. Sir FRANCIS BARING said, that the present claim had been set up against the Fast India Com pany by persons who owed every thing they pos sessed to that Company ; ie was in faet children contending against their parent, and endeavouring to rob her of her most undoubted and most essential rights. During the course of the discussion, many charges had been brought against , the Court of Di rectors, but if their conduel was fairly investigated, it would appear that they had upon every occasion aeled impartially as Trustees for the British Em pire, and that they had no private interest of their, own, . one way or other, upon this Question. If any of these Charges had been proved against the Court of Directors, it would indeed he a good ground for Inquiry ; but it did not appear to him that they had been in any degree substantiated. In the Regulation which took place in the year 1793, the object} of Government was as much as possible to en courage the Manufaetures of Great Britain and Ire land, and great pains were taken by Government and by;the Court "of Dire tors to embraCe, every . obje4 that could tend 'to , that pdint. It was proposed that 306(5 . toris'!should he allowed i the Court of Direefiieg - iaid; if tYiatis not enough take double, Only - 10 • us understand what we are about. The Court also said; if the ManufaattrerS of Great Bri tain and Ireland chose to export their Mannladures, we will, Aignish them with Ships, and give them every accoltirtiMatiort in our power, 614 let tile Trade be carried on in British Ships ; but if ves sels are to be, introduced; not built in England, and - not navigated by British Seamen, then we must op pose it. BUt this would not answer their pUrpose, nceause their objed was to employ not British-built, but Teak Ships. It had been said, that if the pri vate Traders were indulged in their demands, they would bring the Trade, now carried on by Foreigners, to the Port of London, because they could carry on the Trade cheaper than Foreign ers ; but there were authentic documents that proved beyond a doubt, that this was impossi_ sible. But if there was*any truth in their assertion, it must follow, that in proportion as the Private Trade increased, the. Trade carried on by Foreigners must be diminished. Was this the case ? There - were but three descriptions of Trade carried on with India, viz. The Foreign Trade, the Private Trade carried on from the River Thames' , andthat carried on by the East India Company.—Now as the Fri.. vate Trade professed not to injure the Company,. it must follow that as this Trade increased, that car.. tied on by Foreigners must proportionably dimi nish ; but it appeared on the contrary, by the re turns for 1799 and 1800, that the Private Trade had increased, and that at the same time the Fo reign Trade had increased to nearly double. The fad was, that as the Private Trade increased, that of 'the East India Company diminished, because the Private did not interfere with the Foreign Trade. With regard to the subjed of timber, about which so much had been said, he believed that it was not very well understood, and therefore he beg. ged leave to call the attention of the House to the Report of the Commissioners who had been appointed to examine the subject. They said there was not sufficient encouragement in this 'Country for the growth of large Timber, that the Navy Board did not offer enough for it, and that there were no purchasers for large Timber, except the East India Company. Now, if the objet of this Mo tion was obtained, those who grew Timber, would be in a worse situation than they were before. Con siderable reliance had been placed upon the opinion of the Marquis of - WELL ESI.EY, and it certainly was entitled to great weight. The Court of Di- reams were inclined to pay every respc to the sentiments of that Nobleman, but upon this point they could not concur with him, because they thought it was one which ancled the very exist ence of the Company. It had beep urged as an argument in support of the Motion, that the Com pany had sustained a loss by their Exports, but this was rather to be urged as a.merit on the part of the Company, than as a charge against them. Because it was always the object of the court of Directors to endeavour to promote the Exportation of British Manufadures, and if it was found that ,the Na tives of India would take them at prime cost, the Company always sent them out. The Hon. Baronet had said something about the two Com panies that existed in the reign of Queen Anne.—" The second of those Companies was establi,hed in consequence of disputes something similar to the present. The Private Trade now might be compared, to the second of those Companies, with this differ ence, That the Private Trader enjoyed all the bene fit of :ill the Establishment 6 of the Eat India Com pany, without in any degree contributing. to the expellee. It was found, however, that both those Companies could nor e:,ist at the' same time, and they were at last united into one. But he objected to this Inquiry upon another ground, viz, that of . time, because it was rendered nugatory by. the Peace, for the moment the . Trade was open for Foreigners to trade with their own Ports, the Pri-. vate Trader could not come into competition with them. Ide should conclude what he hod to state to the House, that if cheap freight was the object which was sought for, why not give the East India Company the right of hiring Foreign Ships, because the Navigation Aa certainly was not more sacred than the Charter of the East India Company ? Upon these grounds he opposed the Motion. Mr. ItIETCALFE said he should give every op position in his power to the Motion ; but after the full dicuseion the subject had undergone, he should not think it necessary to go over the various argu ments that had been urged upon the subject. He would, however, shortly state some fads, which, in his opinion, must satisfy the House that this Motion could not be entertained. For several years an il legal trade had been carried on between this Country and India, under foreign flags, by persons residing in the East Indies, any: .connected with. persons in this Country. The flags of various na tions were used, the Imperial, .the Danish, the Tuscan, the Genoese, See. ; and there was at one time so,ooo ton of shipping at Calcetta under these Circumstances ; and there was no knowing to what length it might not have gone, if it had not beer for the spirited conduct of His Majesty's Ships of War, and of the Governor of St. Helena, who stopped some ships of this description; and some of them were condemned. He was very sorry to differ in opinion upon this subject from the Marquis of WELLESLEY ; but with the greatest . deference for that Noble Person, he must observe, that he did not carry with him to India the most perfect knowledge of the .Private Trade ; and he had not been above t 4 days in India before this opinion was itdopted. The persons concerned in the Private Trade in in. dia had unfortunately contrived to impose upon the Noble MarquiS's judgment, and to induce him to write home to the Court of Directors, recommend ing them to adopt this plan, with this condition, that British Capital alone should be employed : but it should be recollected, that it was one of the es sential and undoubted rights of the East India Com pany, that no property should be engaged in that Trade that did not belong to the Company.' The opinion of a Right Hon. Gentleman, whose know ledge of the affairs of India Was very great, and whose talents were undoubted (Mr. DUNDAS), had been refereed to upon this occasion, but Mr. DUN DA'S by no means went so far as the Noble Marquis. Mr. MINDAS'S opinion was merely this—that Bri tish Capital should not be brought home in Foreign -Ships. The Hon. BarOnet had represented the Court of Directors as a kind of Aristocratic Body, only.attending to private interests ; but this was by no means the case—they acted entirely upon prin. ciple r ,and were as independent, though they might not possess such large fortunes, as the lion, Baronet, Vint:h bad been said abotit the AA of 170 - . . Ati was undoubtedly most favourable for the 'Codn, try; it was proposed by a Minister who tindersteia the interests both of thiS Cotintry and of India; and who certain!? had gained many important conces sions from the East India COmpany ; but he hoped he should hear no more of taking the spirit of the Ad instead of the letter of it, when the letter was clear and explicit.—Even if the present application was granted. did the House suppose the business could rest there ? Undoubtedly not ; all the rrier.: charits of this: Country would apply fur similar pri:. vileges ; they would present memorials, and would contend that they were entitled to the same pri vileges as those adventurers who had settled in India. Plausible theories always made a consider able impression at first, but they could not long re sist the weight of fads ; and when it was consider ed to what a degree this Country had prospered, and what immense advantages she had derived from her East Indian Possessions, he was sure the House would not riszpie all those advantages to gratify the speculations of a body of adventurers who owed almost their very existence to that very Company which they now endeavoured to injure. But people began of late to entertain strange notions about Charters, for it was not long since a pro_ . posal was made by a Gentleman to establish a new National Bank, and he supposed the next at. tack would be upon the Charter of the City of Lon don., It had been urged, that the East India Com pany always objected to use Teak-built Ships ; now it was rather an unfortunate fad fur those who made that statement, that the only two Ships belonging to the Company were Teak-built Ships. As to the subjeel of Timber, he had always entertained an opinion that the timber of India was very well calculated to bUild King's Ships, but that was not the object of this Motion. It was a Speculation of a set of Adventurers (for so he must call theta, speaking of them as a body, though there were se veral respedable individuals among them) who hav ing enjoyed ease, comfort, and affluence, under the patronage of the East India Company, now, with true Eastern gratitude, wanted to destroy their Benefitdors; He trusted, however, that the House would discourage every a:temot of this kind, for he was convinced, that when the East India Company was ruined, the Sun of British Greatness would soon set for ever. Before he sat down he begged leave to mention one fael, which would chew that the Hon. Baronet himself, who made the- Motion, was so satisfied of the danger . to which he was exposing the Company by- this Motion, that from. the time he had give7l notice of the Motion- to the..present period, he had continued selling out India Stock, and had actually disposed of above zo,oool. of it. WILLIAM D UND AS disclaimed every idea of interfering with the rights or with the Trade of the East India Company ; the only wish of the Private Traders was to take that Trade which the Company could not use. He begged leave to deny the position of the Hon. Diredor (Sir F. BAR I No), that when the private Trade increased, that of the Company diminished ; and read some papers to sliew that they had both increased. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last had said that the Marquis WELLEsLey had made up his opinion upon this subjed after being only 14 days in India ; but did not the Honourable Gentleman know, that sat that very time the Fort of Cal cutta was. full of Foreign Ships; and that if -the Noble Marquis had not adopted this plan, the consequence would have been, that all these Foreign Ships would have - been freighted home ? ,With regard to the subject of Timber,-he bcgv ged to assure the Hon. Gentleman, that it was the opinion of the Noble Lord, who, fortunately for the interests of this Country, was at the head of the Admiralty, that it was essentially necessary that timber should be brought from India for- the use of the King's Ships, and there was no doubt that tie Court of Direetors would not bring it home; he concluded with again declaring, that no man would resist any infringement of the Company's rights more steadily than he should; but he did not con sider this Plan as affeding either their rights or their interests. Sir F. RARING, in explanation, .observed, that the Direaors were willing ,to agree, as far as re spefted Ships of War, but wished to stop when they came to Commercial Ships ; and that it was known that the Private Trade had increased, whereas the Foreign Trade decreased very muchi • Mr. W. DUNDAS also spoke in _explanation,' and averred, that be had been misunderstood. The transaaion which he stated, did not refer to the period of Marquis W E ESL Ey 's Administration al luded to, but was a recent circumstance, which had transpired when the last accounts arrived from India. Mr. METCALFE, in explanation, adverted to what had been said of the indulgencics proper to be granted to the nrivat' trader ; and expressed his opinion, that in the- present circumstances of the Country, it would be neither wise nor politic en tirely to exclude Foreign Traders, more especially• at a period when such important arrangements were about to be made with our late adversaries ; the at tempt, he said, would involve us in disputes with every Commercial Power in America and in Europe, and most probably tend to shorten the duration of the blessings of Peace. Mr. ;ONES observed, that did he deem himself in the least warranted to consider the Proposition of the Hon. Baronet - in the light which Gentlemen op. posite seemed to . view it, he should be very sorry to be - one 'of its supporters.• Be denied that, if granted, it would sacrifice the Foreign Trade of India ; or, that it may be used as an engine for the deStruetion of the Company's Charter. To him the arguments of his pion. Friend for going into a Committee, appeared strong and irresistible : even the sturdy fart - advanced by an Hon. Baronet who argued against the Motion, was in his mind a strong additional inducement to the Inquiry. He thought the Affairs of India, from the situation of the Corn.. pany, and the consideration of their Debts, called for an Inquiry. The statement of the CHANCEL. LOR of the EXCHEQUER, who, if he understood him, bad said that the Direftors had given every prafticable facility to the encouragement of the Pri vate Trade; in his opinion, however, the Direaors had not given clue encouragement to- that description of traders, under' the Aft of .1793. He entertained none of those fears which-some Gentlemen seemed 11 n : a , 1- , 1 • ‘, PR