The Sun. — London, England, 1853-05-07 00:00:00

........' 4.0•- - Busl f ° . this .--•-• t , rt.; " as. Ar ifrO fo f " ro°' i n P t 'O. : 141 01 ,0 1 1 -11iCr o , ondo4o, , `big fj,l 1 4 1:000; o° 9 V° elf or i , ) 1 " io ehe c ' e beo (2110012 TErbirb g_bition SUN OFFICE, Six o'Clock. ELECTION COMINIITTE ES. (THIS DAY.) PLYMOUTH. DOCKYARD APPOINTMENTS—MORE DISCLOSURES. The committee appointed to inquire into the allega tions contained in the petitions'against the return of Mr. Charles John Mare and Mr. Robert Porrett Collier for the borough of Plymouth, met this day. The members of the committee were Mr. Aglionby (chairman), Mr. Glvn, the Marquis of Chandos, Mr. Du nlop, and Mr. Smith Child. It was announced that it was not intended to proceed with the petition against the return of Mr. Collier. The counsel were—For the petitioners, Mr. E. James and Mr. Welsby ; for Mr. Mare, Mr Serjeant King lake, Mr. Slade, Mr. Montague Smith, and Mr. Alexander. Mr. E. James opened the case on the part of the petitioners. The petition sought to render void the re turn of Mr. Mare, at the last election for Plymouth, on the ground of bribery and corrupt practices. There 'would be no evidence offered in regard to treating, and the case would resolve itself into charges of the most serious character, affecting Mr. Mare himself as well as the persons who acted as his agents. The nomination for Plymouth took place on the Bth of July last, and the Polling on the following day ; and at the election there We re fi ve candidates, namely, Mr. Robert Porrett Collier, a member of the bar, and a Liberal ; Mr- George Thomas Braine, a merchant in London, an d a Liberal ; Mr. William Escott, a Liberal ; Mr. Itoundell Palmer, a Peelite ; and Mr. Charles John M are, a supporter of the Derby Administration. The constituency numbered somewhere about 2,000. In 1847 Mr. Roundel' Palmer and Lord Ebrington were returned for Plymouth, and they continued to sit for the borough until the l as t e l ec ti on. P rev i ous t o 1853 kr. Mare was a stranger to Plymouth ; he was very l ar gelY engag e d i n s hi p b u ildi ng at Blackwall, and b y S industry and energy had acquired considerable 'wealth. On the 3d of April he arrived in the bo rn --u g", and commenced his canvass. There was no requisition of any kind requesting him to stand as a candidate, and it would turn out that he was introduced to the electors by certain individuals whose names would figure prominently in the present investigation. He tannounced himself as a strong supporter of the Estab hed Chu rc h , and as opposed to the re-imposition of duty on corn, b ut h e sa id h e t h oug h t t h ere s h ou ld b e cenVensation on the part of the public for the repeal of the corn laws and the navigation laws. On the sth of APril Mr. Mare first addressed the electors at the Ply nlouth Mechanics' Institution. He appeared there With a gentleman named Joseph John Churchward, ” u ° figured prominently in the election. He was the sub -editor of the Morning Herald, and had formerly , h _ ec o connect e d w i th the Naval and M i l i tary Gazette. lite Was known at Plymouth, having some friends and el ectors, there; and he introduced Mr. Mare to the accompanied him on his canvass, and acted as his secretary or mentor. Among the persons inti illiatelY con nected with Mr. Mare were Dr. Butler, cuairman of hi s comm i ttee, Mr. Menn i e, deputy-chair n, Lieutenant Sumpter, Mr. Hawkie, a lodging irsekeePer, Mr. J en ki n Th omas , a s t a ti oner , M r . J o h n lodging filar a retired printer, Mr. Marshall, a builder, Mr. ;Tv. atl,ltzi a n . ett, the c l er k o f th e comm itt ee , M r . I saac thepublican, an d M r. S amue l E sco tt, th e s t ore per of the victualling yard, and who, in defiance of Positive orders of the Admiralty, not to engage in cleal Politic s , canvassed the men under his control on behalf of Mr. Mare, and attended at the hustings. These spice the dramatis personce who would occupy a con laid Positio n positi on i n the transact i ons w hi c h wou ld b e ad W r be fore the comm i ttee. M r. M are ' s h ea d- quar t ers e a intend,„ t d the Roy a l H o t e l, and though it was not it to brin g f orwar d th e ques tion of treating, mi d be mentioned that his bill for the t - o Ipenses incurred in this establishment amounted e_ Sated the .no 'les s a sum than 6601. When Mr. Mare borough he did not hesitate to state to the alnedc he that he had the patronage of the Government, of si t e hel d out the most lavish and profuse promises int erest in 4. order to induce them to give him their in fa o t st ,:",,the coming election. A direct bargain was of s oree —a " for their votes, the return being a promise him : Pp i. Clii ltroerlt, and Mr. Churchward carried with titt ered. in which the promises were regularly he (3 4 ' ll % Mare h e ld ou t, w h e th er r i g htly or wr o ng ly the etit " In es) would no t p re t en d t o sa y, th a t h e h a d vac re 4 d isposition, on the part of Lord Derby, of bo rn e- : 11 tile docky ar d, an d it b ecame no t or i ous i n th e ew borne tlaat such places or situations in Mr. Mare's 11 Yard at Blackwellwere given in exchange for votes. there had alreadstated, the canvass commenced on of April ; on th e 22d, Mr. Stafford, the Secre t-“r3; e of the Admiralty, arrived at Plymouth, Colonel accom 'nted by Mr. G ran t, his private secretary, and p r een, the ma na ger of some works connected with the ckya r d . I t m i g h t b e sa id that 11i Stafford went there there i n tho d i sc h arge o f his duties a of the Ad m i ra lty, but it was somewhats Secretary singular that h e p ersona lly called on Mr. Mare at his committee rooms at thoßoyal Hotel. It was hardlnecessary to state Y that in a borough like Plymouth such a circumstance was calculated to create a great sensation among those who - wished to participate in the patronage of the Admiralty. At the meeting at the Mechanics Institution, Dr. Butler told the electors own that their main object ought to be to serve the •interests, and that they should set aside all questions of politics, and elect Mr. Mare, who could benefit the town. A , Ir. Mare was a director of the General Screw Steam Packet Company, and he gained great favour by contradicting a statement in the Times that the mails would no longer be landed at Plymouth. On the 12th of June the screw steamer the Queen of the South, in which he was interested, was brought t o Pl ymout h , an d t h e e l ectors were admitted On board to see her by tickets issued from his co mmittee-rooms, and it would be shown that Mr. Mare, Mr. Churchward, the postmaster of the town, and a number of other of his political friends, went in a rriage, d rawn b y s i x greys, w i t h t h e ma il s f rom t h e ost-office to the vessel, accompanied by a large pro cession. This, again, was d one t o i n fl uence th e Mminds of the e l ec t ors . O n th e 22d o f J une , r.Stafford again arrived in the Black Eagle, war steamer, and he proceeded to Devonport, the propin quity of which to Plymouth was well known to the coin- OMr littee. He there gave a dinner, which was attended by Churchward, Mr. Mare, and some of the other in dividuals whose names he had mentioned. It ould be seen that the elections for Plymouth and Dowd were clos e ly a lli e d so f ar as th e procee di ngs ° tElplained o f b y the petitioners were concerned. It Z i n uld be p rove d t h at Churchward hired persons to hoot e Liberal candidates both at Devonport and Plymouth. ~,.4 11 the nom i nation Sir John Maxwell used these Wor ds, speaking of Mr. Collier's cl a i m t o b e e l ec t e d ( ` Tal ent in the House of C ommons i s a ll bode ration. I know nothing about politics ; but I v e ao tell you that the Queen of the South is a -jry fi ne vessel." Th e resu l t o f t h e elect i on was that 11. . Mare an d M r. Collier were returned. Mr. Mare got a u_st enthusiastic cheering —such a one as was . never .hefore at Plymouth, but on the Sunday following the ct ion he t oro disappeared, had never been seen since in the „ ugh, and Probably never would, until he was obliged TliriTaghoci there owing to his non-compliance with the de °f (many electors to whom he made various promises. No:10 ee.arned counsel then gave a list of about 26 persons, tl ve _ ither having voted themselves, or got their rela in t ' h to vote for Mr. Mare, had received appointments Olen ( ' e ne v°oPort Dockyard, without any recom -44,3 ation from local authorities, and without any re al' u„sto qualification or merit. These appointments were 'uade under the signature of Mr. Stafford. There w er e to elector a great number of promises of other situations Th e s, some of which were fulfilled, and others . not. We re situa.tions bargained for, before votes were promised, all e l e as follows :-26 in April, 35 in June, and 17 in of b Y rb The learned counsel then alluded to several cases ' l ° l 4 f e b r Y b y Promise of situations, and said he had no den ee we committee, when they had heard all the evi in Us would come to the conclusion that the allegations e Petition were t Mare Peti true, and that the election of Mr. on the s Drought about by the most corrupt practices, The Part of Mr. Mare and his agents. tr otto w log evidence was thenadduced ti o o't wag a - h, partisan of Mr. Escott at the last elec. end of A Mare came down to Plymouth at the latter Lieut. Sumpter cavassing for Mr. 4 1r. a 7 re -rel tutiurchward asked witness to vote for Mare. : t o a a the same time denied that there was any stated between himself and Mr. Palmer. Mr. Mare order, Tat had to Lord Derby avowed himself a free Bsaid that p on all other matters he felt disposed berill'PPort Lord w by's Government,... and that Lord y lead ' therelore, promised him his interest. Wit 11PerotZseedcitoavnlot:z1fornaEmseedottH. ill to vote for Escott. voted rr°BB,„-exarnination the witness stated that he had hriescioatt and Collier ; should have plumped for ' lB cottl r f Saf e. n cl considered that gentleman's seat un -aorge x napthan a butcher and eating-house keeper, Tilt.tioApareise, an seise h e had with m yrnouth, deposed to an interview d he re ache hiui to use ril.Mare at the Royal Hotel. Wit- I!, interest to get him a situation ge nt fo,alerknew that led "Oh, yes, I can do it for you." iat Mr Churchward.e was an elector. Mr. Mare then iii r the • room he took On that gentleman . coming promised Ile hatlaf 'le t" vvitness's name and address g vasserl. t o g i ve xtr.l;taif.ht sir three weeks previously V ot e 0. „ 11 1m, atd he told e. his vote. Mr. Mare can roe„ the him one. ap n o e a hat he should split his t o uo p w Churchward • t RO a n • ng ay, ande commit ee d give M r M arr. tld 1 • gao ,„ • - are a phire_e_o nin Afterwards h e h,ci intomediately and he "u • • rview vath Mr. Mare, and reminded him not to forget his promise. Mr. Mare put his finger to his:mouth and said, " You understand." He supposed that meant he was to re remain quiet. About three weeks after the election he wrote two or three letters to Mr. Mare in regard to the promised situation, but he had received no reply. Cross-examined by Mr. Slade—My vote was to be a split vote, and I considered that I had only promised Mr. Mare one of them. I did not make up my mind as to whom I would give the other vote ; but if Mr. Mare had not given me a promise, I think I should have given my other vote to Mr. Braine. The place in the Excise was for myself. lam 32 ; but lam not aware that I was too old for the Excise. By the Committee—l should certainly have voted for Mr. Braine had not Mr. Mare promised me a place in the excise. I don't think I ever told any one that I had voted for Mr. Mare. Robert Shears examined by Mr. James—l am a sail cloth weaver at Plymouth. At the last election I was canvassed by Mr. Braine for my vote. I promised him one vote. Having heard a good deal about places being given away, I went one day to the Royal Hotel to Mr. Mare. I saw Mr. Churchward there, and asked him if he would do me a favour. I told him I wished to get a tide-waiter's place for my son-in-law. He told me that I bring the young man to him. We went together in theafternoon, and Mr. Churchward then said that he was a personal friend of Admiral Dundas, and that if my son wished he would get a situation under the Ad miral. My son said that he did not wish to go to sea again, but that lie would prefer a tide-waiter's place. Mr. Churchward told me that I must " hold my vote on," and if there was a vacancy I must write to him. I voted for Mare and Braine, but if I had not promised I should have voted for Braine and Collier. On the first vacancy which occurred I got one Williamson, a schoolmaster, to write a letter to Mr. Churchward to ask for it, but my son-in-law never got a situation, and he has been obliged to go to sea again. Cross-examined—Mr. Churchward did not ask me for my vote, but only told me to " hold on." I never pro mised to vote for Collier, but I had intended to do so. Wm. King, examined by Mr. Welsby—l am an ac countant at Plymouth, and I have a vote. In con sequence of what I had heard shortly after Mr. Mare came down to Plymouth as a candidate, I went to Dr. Butler and told him that if he could pro cure me a situation I should be at his service. I told him that I wished to be engaged as a steward on board one of the ships to the Cape or the West Indies. I;then went down to the committee-room in a day or two after, saw Mr. Mare, who referred me to Mr. Churchward, as he said Churchward knew more than he did about these matters. I saw Mr. Churchward, who told me that he was Mr. Mare's private secretary, and that he was going up to London in a day or two, and would get me what I wanted. I said to him you must understand that in giving you my vote, I expect to have a situation before the election. He said it was " all right." I saw him again sometime after, and he said that perhaps it would be longer than I expected, but that it was all right. I again repeated to him that I expected to have the situation before the election. I voted for Mare and Braine ; but I should certainly not have voted for Mr. Mare if it had not been for the promise about the situation. I have never had a situation yet, though I have written two or three times to Mr. Mare. I wrote once about a brother-in-law of mine, a labourer in the dockyard. Cross-examined by Serjeant Kinglake—lt was two or three weeks before the election that I made up my mind to sell my vote. Ido not know a lawyer's clerk named Eastiey, nor have I ever stated to anybody that it was to Mr. Sumpter that I had gone to sell my vote. Re-examined—lt was in consequence of various re ports which I heard that Mr. Mare could get me a situation in very little time that I went to him. If I had obtained the situation before the election I should have voted a plumper for Mare, but as I had only got a promise, 1 split my vote with Braine. By the Commitee—This was the first time that I ever gave my vote for corrupt motives. It was having heard that Mr. Mare was a bidder, that I fell into the tempta tion. William Geach, a cooper at Plymouth, examined by Mr. Welsby, said—l voted at the election for Mare and Braine. Mr. Mare canvassed me about a week before the election, and having a son a cooper in the town trade in London, I asked Mr. Mare if he could get my son into St. Katherine's Docks in regular employment ? Mr. Mare said that he would do it. My son, however, did not get an appointment, and I then got a Mr. Clouter, a schoolmaster, to write to Mr. Mare on the subject. By the Committee—l am what is called Conservative, but I am not a strong politician, and my idea in voting was that I would vote for the man who made trade in the town. I promised to vote for Mr. Mare before the situation was promised. Edward Clouter, a schoolmaster at Plymouth, de posed to having written a letter to Mr. Mare and to the last witness. The date was August 29. Charles B. Patrick, a discharged marine, and a voter at Plymouth, said that, shortly before the election, he went to the Royal Hotel with a view of seeing Mr. Mare. He saw Mr. Churchward, and was by him in troduced into Mr. Mare's room. Witness told Mr. Mare that, under the former Government he had had a pension of 6d. a-day, but that this Government had taken it away, and gave him 71. instead. He asked to get it back again. Mr. Mare said it should be done, and he then asked witness for his vote, and pressed him to give a plumper. Witness promised that lie would. Witness saw Mr. Mare again, and asked him to give a man named Collins some work in his (Mr. Mare's) yard. Mr. Mare asked if Collins was a voter, and on being told that he was not, said that such being the ease he could give him work, but if he had been a voter he would not have obliged him. Witness, after the election, wrote to Mr. Mare, desiring him to per form his promise as he (witness) had performed his. Witness received an answer, signed Churchward, desiring him to send particulars of his claim. Witness sent the desired particulars, and received an answer from Mr. Churchward, saying that Mr. Mare had great hopes of succeeding ; and witness having waited some time longer, witness wrote again, but never received any answer. Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Kinglake—The re gulation by which I received a money payment for my pension was a general one, and affected others as well as myself. Witness voted a plumper for Mare. Samuel Medlen, a carpenter and joiner of Plymouth, was called to prove the agency of Lieut. Sumpter and Mr. Mennie. Thoseltwo gentlemen canvassed him for Mr. Mare, and Lieut. Sumpter offered to get an ap pointment for witness's son, who had just passed an ex amination for a foreman in the ordnance department. Witness afterwards met those geentleinen along with Mr. Mare, and, in the presence of Mr. Mare, the former conversation was repeated, and Lieutenant Sumpter offered that, if witness would vote for Mare, his son's appointment would be done in forty-eight hours. Mr. Mare said he would give me his word as a gentleman that the offer made by his friend should be carried out. Witness refused to promise his vote, because he thought it was inconsistent, as shown on Mr. Braine's committee. 'Witness voted for Braine and Collier. The committee then adjourned until 12 on Monday. STATE OF TRADE. (From the Manchester Guardian of this day.) MANCHESTER, May 6.—Two causes have contributed to increase the firmness of the Liverpool market in the present week—first, the continued falling off in the receipts of cotton at the American ports ; and, second, the announcement that the total stock in Liverpool proves to be 62,185 bales below the brokers estimate— a difference which is attributed to the large imports by spinners have been taken from the ships as they arrive, without being included in the weekly returns—from which it is inferred by holders that the consumption is greater than has been generally supposed. Although, however, the trade thus appear to have had an aver age supply, in the present year, of 37,000 bales, or 4,000 more than the prevailing estimates, most parties here conclude, not that the consumption is so much greater than the estimate, but that the trade have a larger stock, and will therefore be all the more able to keep the Liverpool market in check. Spinners are evidently disposed to persevere in the po licy of abstaining as much as possible from any action upon the cotton market. They see, in Liverpool, 516,934 bags of American against 269,500, and a total stock of 769,571 bags, against 414,270 at the corresponding date of last year. Yet, they are paying for middling Americans 11-16 d. and for fair to good fair id. per lb. snore than they did a year ago ; while, for mule twist of the medium and lower counts, they are obtain ing only id. to Ad. per lb., and for water twist, in bundle or warp only about an average of id. per lb. more than at the same time last year. With a good bona fide demand for the produce of their mills, which not only prevents any accumulation of stock, but keeps them constantly under contract, they yet find their position seriously changed for the worse, and the fair profit upon their capital nearly absorbed by the disproportionate price of the raw material, and be lieving, as they have reason to do, that this price is unduly and artificially bolstered up by the force of n r h ul e e ap o p m f eruneydenitceis in n a h accordance purchaseswith thes h mo should ti most obvious b e restricted in aker s f t o thecloth supplyar e ae ff f ec t t h ed eir i i n nm th e e dia s producers of y arns. They are unable taem to Nevaw o n b atys ta . i a n sTt a hh n ee t a n d a v t an w n e h i c upon h etyhehiravfeabrito pay f fabrics at all or commensurate with l yar f n i c: s r consequently buy warily and spari n e m ; r f a t o n h r d e ;p h i e n y ners. Both branches of th e trade g ar y e t - very unsatisfactory state. Th e caution imp e ose e pd ins spinners and upon manufa c t urers by the ucircum stances adverted to, produ ces exactly the sameeffect upon their customers, whether home or foreign. Al though, therefore, the former have'endeavoured to ob tain rather higher prices this week, they have in general only succeeded so far as to command the full quotations of last week. On such terms, we have to report some, though not much, increase of business both in yarns and goods. In the extensive department of domestics, the state of things remains most unsatisfactory, though sales are somewhat more easily effected. Under the circum stance, it is most perplexing to millowners to find their workpeople trenching upon the hours of labour, and in some places claiming an advance of wages. MIGRATION OF SEAMEN. —The Aim o'Groat Journal says, "That in the last two trips of the Duke of Rich mond steamer, the number of passengers from Shetland was beyond all precedent, and that a corresponding number have left these islands by sailing ships. Among them are several emigrants, but the majority are sea faring men, induced by the present high rate of wages to seek employment at the southern shipping ports. There is every prospect of an extensive exodus from all the northern counties during the ensuing season. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MAY 7, 1853. whom I had very little acquaintance, having shown to a comparative stranger a letter from Lord Lyndhurst, stating that "he hoped better times were coming with reference to the Government." (Laughter.) Lord Seymour—What did you understand by the term "local politics?" Witness—l first considered it related to vestry meet ings, and such like matters only. (Laughter.) Lord Seymour—Did you not understand it as referring to the elections of me mbers of Parliament ? Witness—For the I oorough of Devonport, certainly. It was previous to the election when Capt. Rich, superintend ent of the victualling yard, spoke to me about interfering in politics, but I cannot recollect the precise day. My answer was that I had not interfered, and that the men spoke to me. He advised me not to have anything to do with the matter, and I said I would not. What he said only applied to the votes in the yard. Lord Seymour—Did you consider the interviews in Lon don as a violation of the condition laid on you by Sir F. Baring? Witness—Certainly not. I interpreted the words "local politics" as widely as possible, in order to be perfectly safe. Sir B. Hall—Could you canvass at Woolwich consis tently with the conditions imposed by Sir F. Baring? Witness—Well, perhaps not legally. Lord Seymour—Would it not be better that you did not interfere at all ? Witness—That would amount to political emasculation. (Laughter.) Lord Seymour—Did you not consider being instru mental in returning new members of Parliament a breach of duty ? Witness—Certainly not. Ido not consider cognisance interference. Captain Rich has once or twice asked for my opinion as to promotions. I have not had any communi cation with Mr. Stafford, or any person connected with the Admiralty, in reference to the late elections. I took an interest in the matter for the sake of my friends, and it only so happened that they stood for dockyard boroughs. (Laughter.) Both Mr. Tufnell and Sir John Romilly were extremely popular, but the former especially and on all sides. Mr. Hay, chief clerk of the Admiralty, was then ex amined by. Sir B. Hall, who asked whether the expenses of Mr. Stafford, as Secretary to the Board, on his visit in the Black Eagle to Devonport last June, had not been paid under the head of Contingencies. Mr. Hay replied that they had. Sir B. Hall—Will you refer to the account, and toll me what it amounts to? Mr. Hay—To 721. Sir B. Hall—What is the amount of the bill incurred at Moreshead's Hotel on the 22d and 23d of June, including a dinner to a party of friends ? Mr. Hay-48(. iss. 6cL (Sensation.) Sir B. Hall—Do you know of any similar bill having been sent in by a Secretary of the Admiralty, tho board not accompanying him ? Mr. Hay—l do not. (Renewed sensation.) The proceedings terminated at this point, the committee adjourning to Monday. We have been requested to publish the following letter, addressed by Admiral Hyde Parker to Sir B. Walker : "Admiralty, May 2, 1853. " My dear Walker,—l regret I made a mistake about your making use of my three letters. I was not aware, when I said before the committee that I had only given you permission to make use of one letter, that the three letters were all on the subject of the master smith. You are, therefore, perfectly at liberty to make use of the three before the committee.—Yours very sincerely, " HYDE PARKER." This note completely exonerates Sir Baldwin Walker from having used any of Admiral Hyde Parker's letters to him without his sanction. PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MAY 6. ( From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of COMM 071.1. EXTENSION OF THE INCOME TAX TO IRELAND. Amendment proposed, to leave out the words " United Kingdon," in order to insert the words " Great Britain" instead thereof. Question put, " That the words 'United Kingdom' stand part of the proposed resolution." The committee divided—Ayes, 286; Noes, 61. THE LATE BOARD OF ADMIRALTY. Commodore Seymour resumed his evidence yesterday, and stated, with reference to his letter of the 27th of April to Sir B. Walker, that the " corrupt practices of the pa st " therein referred to by him conveyed the effect of what he had heard rumoured as in existence at Devonport since it was a borough. The establishment of the yard was abont 2,200, the extra list included, and the entries varied in the different months. In April, 1852, a very large number, 25 altogether, came down by Admiralty order, without any previous application on his part for thorn. He sup posed the Admiralty considered it necessary to send thorn. After the circular of the 19th of April, 1852, the monthly return of vacancies was not sent as previously to the Surveyor of the Navy. The return of promotions and appointments for Devonport Dockyard, included in the general return called for by the chairman, and em bracing the appointments and promotions between the Ist of March and the 31st of December, 1852, was here handed to the witness, who stated that it con tained 17 cases of labourers promoted to sawyers in contravention of the circular of 1847. There was no thing in that circular which definitely pointed at the case of labourers, but he considered the spirit of it to be infringed, as, for instance, when it declared that once in the yard men must look to themselves alone for promotion, and that superintendents should be consulted in all cases where advancement took place. He had heard it rumoured that the pro motions in April, 1852, were the result of political influence, but of himself he did not know that it was so. Commodore Seymour then proceeded to read a cor respondence which he had had with the Admiralty in reference to the conduct of Mr. Edy, master-shipwright in the yard, who, it was alleged or suggested, had violated his duty in interfering with the politics of the borough. The charges made against him were, in substance, that he had admitted Mr. Tuffnoll, one of the Whig candidates, to his pew, at chapel, in the dockyard, during the canvass, and that he had improperly, and for party purposes, got a joiner, named Orem, sent to Portsmouth, to learn the management of the planing machinery there, with a view to his promotion subsequently at Devonport, where similar machinery was about to be established. Tho first of these accusations Mr. Edy admitted to be true, and Commodore Seymour pointed out to him the imprudence of the act, stating that he had refused a gallant officer, a candidate for the borough, a similar privilege. The second accusa tion was brought to his knowledge when the election was over, and upon inquiry he had no reason to believe that Mr. Edy had been unduly influenced by political consi derations in the selection of Oram, who was the best man for the purpose, though a voter in the Liberal interest. Commodore Seymour further stated that Mr. Edy was well qualified for the position which he occupied, and that he had risen to the position of master-shipwright at Plymouth (having, however, previously occupied the same position at Pembroke Dockyard), notwithstanding the understood rule of the service that it was not desirable to give officers superior positions in yards where they had pre viously occupied a subordinate situation. No letter had been addressed to him, complaining that any officer under his command had improperly exercised political influence in favour of the Government. There existed, he believed, at Devonport, as at Chatham, a Patronage Committee, or rather two committees, one on each side, who claimed to dispose of vacancies in the yard as they fell in. Only the other day ho heard that they were engaged in forwarding the interests of two gentlemen, candidates for a vacant clerkship. The commodore then read a correspondence which had passed between him and the Admiralty relating to his secretary, Mr. Dyer, who, it seems, had been con founded with a Lieut. Dyer, an active partisan of the Whig candidates at the last election. Sir B. Hall wished to know the particulars of Mr. Staf ford's visits to the dockyard during his tenure of office. Commodore Seymour stated that Mr. Stafford's first visit was paid on the 12th of April, when he called on him at Moreshead's Hotel. On the 13th Mr. Stafford, Colonel Green, and Mr. Grant came to the yard, over which, ex cept the victualling department, he accompanied them. Mr. Stafford left on the 15th and returned on the 22d of June, in the Black Eagle. Next day he came to the yard with Sir G. Berkeley and Sir John Maxwell, and on that occasion Mr. Stafford, having expressed a wish to the effect, was present while the men passed through the ticket-office on their way to dinner. He saw no political influence ex ercised by Mr. Stafford, whom he attended officially as Secretary to the Admiralty. Lord Seymour asked if it frequently occurred that the Secretary came down to Devonport without the Lords of the Admiralty. Commodore Seymour said it was the only instance of the kind within his recollection. He stated that in 1852 therehad been a departure from the ordinary practice of the yard with reference to shipwrights' apprentices—five or six of the ap pointments made being isolated cases wherein the usual selection by competition had been dispensed with. In his opinion that was a breach of the circular of 1847. With reference to the management of the dockyard the Commo dore stated that the three Nasmyth's hammers, worked there, yielded an amount of work which might fairly be compared with the results obtained at any of the other yards. The present master smith, Ainslie, had been taken from the private trade, and before his appointment an engineer, also from the private trade, had charge of the smitheries. While at Sheerness, he was quite satisfied with the course of promotion, and so likewise at Devon port, till April 1852. He considered it desirable in certain cases for the Admiralty to avail itself of the talent and skill of the private trade. The vacancies filled up in April did not appear to him necessary. Lord Seymour—lf you received a letter directing you to admit Ainslie as master smith, would you consider that sufficient to admit him ? Commodore Seymour would not, unless he brought an order or warrant. Two or three of the sawyers appointed were, he believed, voters, and the rest were relations of voters outside. Mr. Triscott, storekeeper in the victualling yard at Stonehouse, and previously at Bermuda, said he did not go into Devonport during the election, but he was at Ply mouth. Sir B. Hall—Were you on the hustings ? Witness—Yes. I took a place there for a short time to avoid the crowd on the nomination day. On the polling day I did not go near the booths, for I had no vote. I have never canvassed any voter. When they spoke to me, I replied. I have no recollection of speaking to a person named Edgecombe. A voter named Brown did speak to me, and asked for an apprenticeship for his son. I replied, desiring him to make a formal application, and state his services and claims. Captain Rich spoke to me about tak ing part in elections, and I denied that I had. I remem ber Mr. Stafford's arrival at Devonport, and the dinner which took place at Moreshead's Hotel next day. I could not say who was there, but I believe Sir J. Maxwell was one. Mr. Bear, former agent, and Mr. Smith, present agent of the Conservative party, Dr. Butler, chairman of Mr. Mare's committee, the Admiral, the Commodore, Ad miral Morris, Captain Walker, and Mr. Baker were also present. I was at Sheerness, Woolwich, and Deptford dockyards, on leave, previous to the general elections. Sir B. Hall—Were you not frequently in the lobby of the House of Commons also ? Witness—Yes, I was. Sir B. Hall—Had you not conversations there with members of the house ? Witness—l answered questions. Sir B. Hall—Had you not conversations with Mr. Staf ford ? _ _ . Witness—No, not with him. Sir B. Hall—lad you not with Mr. Forbes Mackenzie ? Witness—l had. Sir B. Hall—And with Major Beresford ? Witness—l had conversations with him about elections. Sir B. Hall—About Plymouth ? Witness—Yes. Sir B. Hall—About Woolwich ? Witness—l dare say I had. (Laughter.) I did not speak to him about Mr. Rolt's election. I spoke to Mr. Forbes M`Kenzie, to whom I was introduced casually by Lord Arthur Lennox. I have seen Mr. Forbes Mackenzie and Major Beresford at the Carlton Club, and I have had conversations with Major Beresford there. Sir B. Hall—What conversation had you with Mr. Forbes Mackenzie ? Witness—He asked me if Mr. Rolt would stand for Greenwich. I said " I did not know whether he would," and I went to Mr. Rolt about it, with whom I am con nected by marriage, and advised him to stand. I was stay ing with him at the time, and afterwards I was there during the canvassing, but I did not canvass myself. I once walked a hundred yards with him while he was can vassing, wishing to talk to him on business. I never had conversations with any of the officers of Woolwich Dock yard about their votes. Sir B. Hall—Having advised Mr. Rolt to come forward did you give him no assistance ? Witness—None, except when he lost his son. Sir B. Hall—Have you not, within the last few days, said Mr. Rolt would have retired but for you ? Witness—l am not aware. I certainly advised him to go on with the contest. Sir B. Hall—Have you not spoken of being instrumental in the return of members to Parliament? Witness (hesitatingly)— Yes, I have. Sir B. Hall—What members did you refer to ? Witness—To Mr. Rolt more particularly ; also to Mr. Mare, who is a connexion of mine likewise, and whom I advised to stand. Sir B. Hall—Did you not speak of others? Witness—l shall not deny ; I believe I did. I spoke of Sir G. Berkeley, but I did not allude to the possibility of the return of Sir J. Maxwell, for I did not think he would succeed against Mr. Tufnell. Sir B. Hall—What conversations had you at the Carlton with Major Beresford ? Witness--I had very little conversation. He asked me what were the chances of the Conservative candidates at DOvonport, and I told him. I have known him for 18 months. Lord Arthur was then talked of as a candidate, and introduced both to Mr. Forbes Mackenzie and Major Beresford. Sir B. Hall—Did Major Beresford consult you frequently about the election ? Witness—He asked me what chances the Government candidates had of success, and I told him that if Mr. Tufnell come forward they would have no chance of suc cess, and very little against Sir J. Readily. I have been at Bermuda, and have expressed a desire to go back there. Sir B. Hall—To whom? Witness—To Lord Lyndhurst. He questioned me closely as to the state of the island, and said it would be a good thing to Bead me as Governor there. (Laughter.) I have made no secret of my desire to have that appointment, and have spoken to Mr. Rolt, and Mr. Beatson, a Lord of the Treasury, on the subject, and to Colonel Forester also. Sir B. Hall—Colonel Forester was a member of the Government ? Witness—He held a position under Government. (Laughter.) Sir B. Hall—Have you not been in frequent communi cation with Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Major Beresford, and Colonel Forester about election matters ? Witness—Colonel Forester asked me questions, and I answered him ; but I don't see what this has to do with the matters upon which I am summoned here to be ex amined, and which I believe relate to dockyard appoint ments. I therefore appeal to the Chairman for protection. (Laughter.) The Chairman intimated to the witness (among some demonstrations of applause, which were, however, mutually chocked) that he must answer the questions put to him. Sir B. intend to follow up my inquiries. Did you report to these gentlemen the probable success of Rolt for Greenwich? Witness —I told them I thought Mr. Rolt would suc ceed there. I had no communication except with Colonel Forester about Devonport, and with him not more than three letters altogether. I know a man named Pope, a miller, and Tibbitt, a Cornish policeman, and Charles Brown. They spoke to me first with reference to their votes, and asked me to make interest in their favour, but my answer was that I would do what I could to represent their claims as far as these rested on public grounds, and that they should vote freely according to their consciences. After my appointment to the victualling yard by Sir F. Baring I received a letter cautioning me not to interfere in " local politics." My desire to obtain the governorship of Burmuda I had made known voluntarily to people with MAJORITY-AYES, 286 Acland, Sir T. Forster, C. Murphy, F. Stack A'Court, C. Fox, W. J. Noel, Hon. G. Adair, Hugh E. Freestun, Colonel Neeld, John Adderloy, C. Freshfield, J. Norreys, Lord Aglionby, IL A. Frewen, C. H. Oliveira, Benjamin Anderson, Sir James Gallwey, Sir W. P. °shoal ne, Ralph Anson, Viscount Gardner, Richard Otway, Arthur John Baines, MT. Gladstone, William Paget Lord George Ball, John. Glyn, George Carr Palmer, Robert Baldcock, E. H. Gooderich, Vis. Palmerston, Viscount Barnes, Thomas Goodman, Sir G. Parker, R. Townley Barrington, Viscount Gordon, Admiral Patten, J. Bass, M. T. Goulburn, Henry Pechell, Sir G. Beaumont, W. B. Grace, 0. Pellatt, A Bell, James Graham, Sir J. Percy, J. At nbow, John Greene], G. Phillips, John Henry Bentinck, G. P. Gregson, Samuel Phillimore, R. J. Beresford, William Grenfell, C. Pigott, F. Berkeley, Admiral Grey Sir G. Pilkington, J. Berkeley, Hon. C. F. Grosvenor, Earl Pollard-Urquhart, W. Biddulph, R. M. Gwyn, Rowel Ponsonby, Hn.A.G J. Blackett, J. F. . Hadfield, George Portal, M. Blandford, Marquis ' Hale, Robert B. Portman, W. Bouham-Carter, John Banbury, Spencer B Powlett, Lord W. Boyle, Colonel Hanmer, Sir J. Price, W. P. Bramston, T. W. Hastie, Alexander Pritchard, J. Brand, 11. Hastie, Archibald Pugh, D. Bright, John Hawkins, W. W. Rarnsden, Sir J. Crisco, Musgrave Ileathcoate, J. Repton, G. W. J. Brocklehurst, John Ileathcoate, Sir G. Ricardo, 0. Bioterton, Joseph Bcneage, G. IL W. Rice, E Browne, V. hieneage, G. F. Robertson, P. F. Bruce, 11. A. Herbert, H. A. Rolt, P. Bulkeley, Sir R. B. Herbert, Sidney Rumbold, C. E. Buller, Sir J. Y. Hervey, Lord Alfred Rushout, Capt. Burrell, Sir C. M. Heywood, James Russell, Lord J. Butler, Charles S. Bey w orth, L. Russell, F. C. Byng, G. 11. Charles Hildyarl, R. Sand-trs, G. Cardwell, E. Ilindley,Charles Sawle, C. B. G. Caulfield, Col. Howard, W. G. Scobell, Capt. Chambers, 3./.. Howard, Lord E. Scully, V. Chambers, T. Hudson, George Berner. 11. K. Chandos, Marquis of Hume, Joseph Seymour, 11. D. Ctuartcris, F. Hutchins, E. Seymour, IV. D. Cheetham, John Inglis, Sir R. H. Shelburne, Earl Chelsea, Viscount lrton, Samuel Shelley, Sir J. V. Child, Smith Jackson, William Smith. John Benj. Christy, S. Jeranyn, Earl Smith, M. Tucker Clay, Sir W. Johnstone, James Smith, Rt. Iln. R. Clifford, Homy M. Johnstone, Sir J. smyth. J. Clinton, Ld C. Kendall, Nicholas Sotheron, T. tr. Clinton, Lord Robert Keogh, William Spooner, Richard Cobbold, J. C. Kershaw, James Stafford, A. Cocks, Thomas S. Kingscote, R. N. F. Stanley, W, 0. Coffin, W. Kinnaird, Arthur F. Stirling, W. Coles, H. Beaumont Kirk, William Strickland, Sir G. Collier, Robert P. Knightley, Rainald Strutt, E. Colvile, Charles R. Labouchere, H. Stuart, H. Cowan, Charles Laffan, R. M. Sturt, H. G. Cowper, W. F. Laing, S. Thicknesse, R. A. Craufurd, E. IL J. Langston, J. E. Thompson, G. Crook, J, Langton, R. G. Thornely, T. Crossley, Frank Lascelles, E. t Townshend, Capt. Dalrymple, Vise. Legh, G. C. Tufnell,H. Davie, Sir 11. Lennox, Lord H. G. Vane, Lord H. Davies, D. A. S. Lewis, Sir T. Vernon.G. E. 11. Denison, E. Lewisham, Vl5O. Villiers, Hon. C. Denison, J. E. Loveden, P. Vivian, J. H. Dering, Sir E. Lowe, Robert Vivian, H. H. Divett, Edward Luce, T. Wall, C. B. Drummond, H. Macgregor, James Walmsley, Sir J. Duckworth, Sir J. APTa7gart, Sir J. Welby, Sir G. Duff, George Mangles, R. D. Wellesley, Lord C. Dull, James Manners, Lord G. Wells, W. Duncan, G. Mare, C. J. West, F. R. Dundas, G. Martin, John Whitbread, S. Dundas, F. Massey, W. N. Whitmore, H. Dunlop, A. Masterman, J. Wickham, 11. W. East, Sir J. B. Matheson, Alex. Wilcox, B. Egerton, Sir P. Matheson, Sir J. Willictins, W. Egerton, W. Thuile, Colonel Wilson, James Egerton, Edward Meux, Sir Henry W innington, Sir T. Ellice, Rt. Hon. E. Miall, Edward Wise, John A. Ellice, E. Milligan, Robert Wood, Sir C. Elliot, John Mills, T. Woodd, B • Evans, Sir Da Lacy Milnes, R. AI. Wortley, J. S. Evans, William Milton, Lord Wrightson, W. ?wart, William Michell, W. Wyndham, Gen. Farnhani, E. B. Mitchell, T. Wyndham, William Fell den, M. Moffatt, G. Wynn, H. Fergus, John Molesworth, Sir W. Wyvill, Ai. Ferguson, Colonel Monck, Lord young, Sir f. Ferguson, Joseph Monsen, W. Fitzgerald, J. Montgomery, Sir G. Fitzroy, Hon. 11. Morris, D. Foley, John H. Mostyn, E. M. Forester, Colonel Mulgrave, Earl MINORITY—NOES, 61. Alexander, J. Hamilton, Geo. A. Prime, It Archdall, Captain Hamilton, J. Hans Russell, F. W. Bailey, Crawshay Hardinge, Charles S. Sadleir, J. Bailey, H J Keating, Robert Scully, F. Ball, Edward Kelly, Sir F. Basing, Sir F. Kennedy, Tristram Bateson, Thomas Ker, D. S. Stanley, Lord Bland, L. Knox, IV. 8 . Sullivan , M. Bower, G. M'Cann, J. swift, Richard Bunbury, W. Ms Mahon, P. Taylor, Colo nel s s i n h l t y h t o h r , p R. C . o j. on lel Burghley, Lord Maguire, J. Towneley, C. Christopher, It. Adam Manners, Lord J. Verner, Sir IV. Corbally, M. E. Maxwell, James P. Walcot, Adm. Corry, Bevy Lowry Meagher, Thomas Walpole, S. H Davison, R. Devereux, J. T. Whiteside, James Disraeli, Benjamin Moore, It. S. Yorke , Eliot Thomas Montgomery. cL H. L. IN na lle y , G. 11. 11. Moore, Dunne, Col. N aas, Lord Esmonde, John O'Brien,lP. Fuller, Angus:us E. O'Flaherty, Anthony Greene, J. Packing ton ' Sir J. Lawless, C. Grogan, E. Power, N. Fagan, W. TELLERS. "'Ube, W. G. B erkoley Groutlle TILLERS. ENTAILS (SCOTLAND) BILL. As amended, considered. Amendment proposed, page 3, lines 14 and 15, to leave out the words between "entail," in line 14, and "the granting," in line 15, and insert the words "whether the tailzie under which he holds the en tailed estate be dated prior or subsequent to the Ist day of August, 1848, to authorise," instead thereof. Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the bill." The house divided —Ayes, 120; Noes, 24. arims, Lord D. MAJORI TY—AYES, 120. Acland, Sir T. Goderich, Viscou nt Mul g rave, E a rl A'Court, C. Goodman, Sir Ge or g e Mut rou g h, J. P. Adair, H. Adderl ey, C. Baines, M. T. Graham, u,SiarrqJaumes Naas, y Marquis of N Greenall, Gilbert Osborne, Ralph Baldock, E. H. Gronfell,C. Paget, Lord Alfred Bateson, T. Grogan, E. Paget. Lord George Bentinck, Geo. P. Hamilton, Lord C. Palmerston, Via. Bethel, Richard Hamilton, G. A. Parker, R. T. Bonham-Carter, J. Ilanbury, Hon. C. Patten, J. Boyle, Col. Hawkins, William Percy, J. William Brotherton, J. Henley, Joseph W. P erc y , Thomas Browne, Valentine Herbert, Sidney riott, Francis Bruce, Lord Ernest Hervey, Lord Alfred Ponsonby. A. Bruce, Cumming Hindley, Charles Price, W.P. Butt, Isaae Hume, W. F. Ricardo, 0. Byng, G. H. C. Hutt, William Russell, Lord J. Cardwell, lion. E. Ingham, Robert Russell, F. C. Cavendish, C. C. Trion , Sa muel Sawle, C. B. G. Chambers, Thomas Jones , D . Benham, Lord. Charter's, F. Kendall, N. Spooner, R. Clay, Sir W. Keogh, William Stafford, A. Clinton, Lord R. Kingecote, R. N. F. Stafford, Marquis Cobbold, J. Chevalier Knight, F. W. Stanley, Lord Cockburn, Sir Alex. Lang, S. Stirling, William Cowper, W. Lidd ell, 11. G. Strati, Edward Crowder, R. Lov alne, Lord Taylor, Col. Dalrymple, Vis. Lowe , R. T Vane, Lord hornely. T. Dunne, Col. Lo wther, Colonel Townele,. Egerton, Sir Philip Lu co , Thomas A. E. Macg regor, James Villiers, Rt. lin. C. Ellice, , J. E. M a ddock, Sir H. Walpole, Spencer H. Elliot Evans, W. m an d o viiie, Viscount. Whitbread , Samuel n, M. M a nia, Colonel Whit e si de , Jam es Feilde Fergus, J. Mills, T. Wickham, Henr y W. Fitzroy Michell, W. Wilson, J. , Henri" Forster , Charles Moncrelff, J am es Wyndham, General F ree stun, Colonel Monsell, William Young, Sir John TELLERS. Moore, Boss 5. Hayter, lion. W. G hVairseolesunt Montgome - y, Sir G. Berkeley, Grenville Gds M I NORITY—NOES, 24. An derson, Sir James Greene, John Pilklngton , Jame s Gladstone, Galwa y , o C nc, Captain Mostyn, E. M. Bass, M. T. Bostic, Alexander Potter, B. Bouverie, E. Hastie, Archibald Smollett. A. Colville, C. R. Hey wood, James Stuart, Lord D. Cowan, Charles Kirk, William Thiekntsse, R. A. CraufUrd, E. Weann, James T hom p son, George Crossley, F. Matheson, A. TELLISS. Duncan, George M a theson, Sir J. Dunlop, A. Fitzgerald, .1. D. Napier, J. Ninuaird, A. r. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL. On the motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR that this bill be read a third time, Lord ST. LEONARDS said he did not believe it would carry out the objects for which it was intended. It had been brought before Parliament nine or ten times, and had never yet become a law. The commis sioners of 1850 had given it as their opinion that no system of registration would work well without a map, which it would take years to prepare. If the measure could be carried into execution the costs of it would be enormous. The noble and learned lord then proceeded to repeat his objections to the bill which he had urged upon previous occasions when it had been before their lordships. Their lordships then divided — Contents Not contents On the question that the bill do pass, Lord CAMPBELL expressed the gratification he felt at seeing a measure for which he had laboured for twenty four years on the point of passing their lordships' house, and trusted that it would be equally successful in the other branches of the Legislature. He had, however, considerable doubts whether it would not reach the House of Commons too late to be debated this session, and he hoped that instead of proroguing Parliament at the end of the session it would merely be adjourned, so that the bill might become law this year. Indeed, it would be an excellent plan if the house were adjourned for two or three months at the end of each session, to enable them to take up and finish the measures that were in progress. (Hear, hear.) Lord LYNDHURST gave his hearty support to the bill, and said that if his noble and learned friend (Lord St. Leonards) had attended the commission he would have been satisfied that his fears as to the operation of the measure were groundless. After a slight altercation between Lord ST. LEONABDS and Lord BBAUMONT as to whether the bill had received the sanction of the two royal commissions, the bill was then passed. ROADS IN INDIA. The Earl of ALBEMARLE moved for several returns, which were agreed to. CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL. The select committee on this bill was nominated. CATHEDRAL APPOINTMENTS BILL. The house went into committee on this bill, and the various clauses were agreed to. The Bishop of OXFORD gave notice that on bring ing up the report he should move the addition of a clause suspending the operation of the tact, under which the capitular bodies at present have power to assign their estates to' the Ecclesiastical Commission in return for fixed stipends, till Parliament shall have considered the report for the commission. The bill then passed through committee. LUNACY REGULATION BILL LUNATIC ASYLUMS BILL -- LUNATIC CARE AND TREATMENT BILL. These bills were severally read a third time and passed. CLITHEROE ELECTION. Lord BEAUMONT gave notice that on Monday he would call the attention of the house to the position they were in with regard to the Chtheroe election, no answer having been returned to the communication from the House of Commons on the subject. Their lordships then adjourned at five minutes past seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS-(YESTERDAY.) MR. DUFFY AND THE IRISH MEMBERS. The order of the day for the consideration of the ex ception taken to the words uttered last night by Mr. Duffy in the course of his speeeh having been read, The SPEAKER asked if the honourable member for New Ross was in his place. Mr. DUFFY said—l am here, Sir. Mr. SPEAKER—It is my duty to remind the hon. gentleman of the proceedings which took place last night. The house was informed by a report of the Committee of Ways and Means, that exception had been taken to certain words used by the honourable member for New Ross, which were : " Greater corruption than was ever practised in the days of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised, under my own eyes, upon Irish members of this house ?" If the hon. member has any explanation to make now in the house, it is hardly necessary for me tell the hon. member that there is always a willingness on the part of this house to extend its indulgence to any hon. mem ber who, in the heat of debate, has made use of words calculated to offend hon. members in the house, and I trust the hon. member will now be prepared with such an explanation or apology as may be satisfactory to the house. Mr. DUFFY—I wish, in the first place, to set myself right before proceeding to the explanation which I have to make. I desire to recal to the recollection of the house exactly what happened last night. When I was interrupted it was not by a call to order, but by a chal lenge to prove certain statements whichA had made. If I had been called to order I should have felt bound at once to have set myself right with the committee in any manner which might have been deemed sufficient, but in answer to the challenge which was given to me to prove my words, I felt then, and I feel still, that it would have been a course utterly irreconcileable with my conscience, simply to withdraw a statement on its truth being questioned. After some debate Mr. Den verie at length declared me to be out of order, and I was then about to rise immediately to take the course which seemed to me necessary under the circumstances, and to say that I was quite aware that the rules of debate in this assembly, as well as of every other assembly, ought not to be violated, and that if I had violated them I was extremely sorry. (Hear.) I was about to take that course when the right hon. gentleman the member for Bucks interposed, and stated that a charge of corrupt practices against the Ministry was not a breach of order, but, on the contrary, the privilege, nay, even the duty, of any hon. member of this house. (Hear, hear.) I did not feel then that I was bound at once, with out ,waiting for some furth er d e b a t e , t o ta ke the course which I had before meditated ; and after that the possibility of withdrawing the words was taken away from me by the noble lord the member for the city of London. That noble lord stated that I had endeavoured, after making the charge contained in my words, to fly away from it, and avoid naming the parties. Now the very reverse was the fact. (Cheers.) I appeal to both sides of the house whether I did not wait for several minutes--a long time under such cir cumstances—and I declared that if the committee, by the chairman, decided that I should do so, I would at once proceed to name the persons without avoiding the re sponsibility of proving the allegation which I had made. The noble lord went on further to say that I could not prove a syllable of what I had stated. Now, I appeal to the house if, after such a s t a t emen t, I could withdraw my words, leaving the matter in that position. (Hear, hear.) Would any hon. member of the house, after it had been stated by a minister of the Crown that he had made an allegation which he could not prove, consent to terminate the debate by simply withdrawing the words which he had uttered. (Cheers.) It seems to me scarcely possible to take that course. (Hear.) After that I withdrew by the direction of the chairman, and I am informed that certain circumstances then took place with respect to me. I also wish to offer some explana tion. I have been told by them that it was imputed to me that I had intended to convey that money was given to secure the votes of Irish members. Now, I distinctly wish the house to understand that I did not mean to convey any such thing. Now, what I wish to convey is this—that the political profligacy which prevailed in the times of Walpole and the Duke of Newcastle, when men were induced to abandon the most solemn and cir cumstantial pledges, and to leave behind their reputation and political character for the purpose of accepting office, —that that conduct seemed to me to have been exceeded by circumstances which had fallen under my own notice since I had been a member of this house. (Loud cheers.) I meant to charge that certain Irish members had, in point of fact, outrun anything which I had ever heard or read of in discreditable abandonment of their notorious and rooted principles, for the purpose of what I could only interpret. as their own personal advantage and advancement. If I knew what political corruption means that is political corruption—and I repeat now what I have said before—that if it be the wish of this honsell am ready to specify the individuals, and to state what appear to me to be cogent facts in sustain ment of this allegation. These being my opinions, of course it is impossible for me to retract what I have said. I wish the house to understand that if in stating them here—for I have often stated them else where—l have violated any rule of the house, it was entirely outside my intention, and of course I regret if I have offended against the proper manner of con ducting debate in this house, which seems to me, on the authority of the right hon. gentleman the member for Buckinghamshire, somewhat doubtful ; but if I have offended, of course I regret it. (Loud cheers.) Lord J. RUSSELL—The honourable member has said that I interrupted him last night in a manner which prevented him withdrawing his charge. Mr. DUFFY—What I said was, that after the state ment of the noble lord that I had made a charge of which I could not prove the truth, it seemed to me that a man of honour could not terminate the business by simply withdrawing the charge. Lord J. RUSSELL—I was about to say that the hon. member stated in this house that corruption had been practised on Irish members by the present Govern ment in a manner that exceeded the .corruption of Wal pole and Pelham ; and, the debate having gone on for some time, both as to the character of the words and the course to be taken with respect to them, I think I could have taken no other course than to have given a complete denial on the part of the Governmen e t. (Hear,.ment hear.) The hon. gentleman made a general statement, and I made a general denial. I certainly it understood the charge in a di ff erent manner to that in w hic h is now stated to me. Everybody who has read history knew that the corruption of Walpole and Pelham was of this kind—that when there was a qu es t ion which was likely to be closely pressed in the house, that either by gift of place or gift of money a majority was secured in favour of the Government. (Hear.) It now appears that the charge of the hon. member is of a verydifferent descrip tion. (No, no.) Well , then, does the hon. me mber mean to say that money has been given to the Irish members ? (Mr. Duffy—" No, no.") Then it is of a different description. What I understan d the hon. gentleman to say is that there have been members in this house who, having given certain pledges and expressed certain opinions in Ireland before bodies of the Irish peo ple, have accepted office, forfeited those pledges, and gone contrary to those opinions. I do not know whether there is any accusation of corruption in the times of Walpole which at all answers that description. Because there were not then questions under discussion upon whieh declarations of this kind could be made. What the hon. member now states is that hon. members, flying from pledges and ,not acting in accordance with the opinions they have declared, have either accepted office or ranged themselves on the side of the ' Government. I doubt very much whether that is an ac cusation which could at all be declared disorderly con duct. It appears to me to be a matter of argument for the house in any debate, whether those who have either accepted office, or, without accepting office, have sup ported the present Government, have acted from corrupt motives. I think the Irish members have ample means of defending themselves, and my belief is that, instead of acting from any corrupt motives, they have acted in a way highly honourable to themselves. (Laughter and cheers.) That is a matter of opinion, and a sub ject for discussion, and I do not think Irish members have any reason to fear any amount of lengthy debate on the subject. It appears there have been statements in Ireland, that members for Ireland from corrupt mo tives, have taken up the cause of the Government, have acted with them, and voted for them, and it had even been alleged that they have received sums of money for so doing. It appears that gross accusation is now aban doned, and I think it is always better, in such cases, to allow the matt er t o d rop, w i thout taking any fur::.4cr proceedings. (Cheers.) Mr. J. BALL wished to say a few words, but The SPEAKER called the h on . gentleman to order, as there was no motion before the house. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house do pass to the orders of the day. Mr. BALL then proceeded to remark that the state ment which the hon. member for New Ross made last night referred to transactions which occurred four months ago. Mr. G. DUFFY said the hon. gentleman was mis taken. His statement did not refer to anything of the sort. Mr. J. BALL said that he had nothing further to say, but the hon. gentleman, against whom he had no per sonal animosity whatever, had stated in another capacity than a member of Parliament, that Irish members, in supporting the present Government, had violated a pledge which they made four years ago. It appeared, however, that what the hon. member said last night was not an echo of this statement, and he had therefore no thing more to say in this unpleasant matter. The. SPEAKER then put the question that the house pass to the order of the day, which was agreed to amidst much laughter. WAYS AND MEANS.—INCOME TAX. The house shortly afterwards went into committee of ways and means, when The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Bouverie) put the question which was debated last night, namely, that the words proposed to be left out of the resolution which included Ireland in the operation of the income tax stand part of the question. Mr. F. FRENCH rose to order. The hon. member for New Ross was in possession of the chair when this debate was interrupted last night, and The CHAIRMAN said the question having been put, the hon. and learned member was out of order in speaking. Lord J. RUSSELL (speaking sotto voce) requested the hon. member to speak sitting, and with his hat on. Mr. F. FRENCH, adopting the noble lord's advice, proceeded to say it was neither fair nor proper to put the question in this abrupt manner. The hon. member for New Ross was in possession of the chair when the debate was interrupted, and he had therefore a right to complete the speech which he commenced last night. The committee divided during this period, when the numbers were— For the amendment 6l Against it 286 Majority The resolution was accordingly carried. Mr. MOORE moved that the chairman do report pro gress, and ask leave to sit again in order that the point of order might be discussed with the Speaker in the chair. Mr. LABOUCHERE concurred with the motion, and said it was most desirable that the point of order should be decided by the house, and not the committee. Lord J. RUSSELL also concurred in the motion undor the circumstances stated. And the question, that the Chairman report progress, was put and carried. The house having resumed, the Chairman reported progress and obtained leave to sit again. Lord J. RUSSELL then stated what had occurred about the point of order, and added that, as the hon. member for Mayo had been instrumental in raising the point of order, perhaps he would be good enough to continue the discussion. Mr. MOORE then proceeded to explain to the Speaker the position in which the matter stood. When the debate was interrupted last night the hon. member for New Ross was in possession of the chair, but the Chairman of the committee to-night, instead of calling the hon. member for New Ross to resume the debate, proceeded in a hurried manner to put the ques tion, which was clearly a violation of his duty. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BOUVERIE said he had committed the mistake, if mistake it was, unintentionally ; but the house should remember that he hesitated some time before he put the question, with the view of seeing if any one wished to speak. The hon. member for Droitwich, seeing his hesitation, rose and asked him what the question was, and before he put it he gave him a distinct answer. However, he had no intention to take any one by sur prise. Sir J. PAKINGTON emit! W. digvput,c only- ehowca the necessity for order being called and obtained before any question was put. The SPEAKER said there was a difference between the practice of the house and that of its committee. In the house a member could only speak once, but in com mittee members could speak as often as they pleased. It was therefore difficult to determine this point, but the house would remember that when a member moved the adjournment of a debate in the house, it certainly gave him the privilege of opening the debate on the following day, it yet did not follow that the Speaker was bound to call upon him, unless he rose to address the house. Nor it did not appear that the hon. member for New Ross rose when the question was just in com mittee ; and therefore, according to analogy, the Chair man was not out of order in putting the question to the vote. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the Speaker do leave the chair. Colonel SIBTHORP said there had been so much confusion that he was really at a loss to understand what had occurred, but he could undertake to say that although he was opposed to the income tax in any shape, he yet thought, after the conduct of her repre sentatives, Ireland ought to be called upon to pay double the income tax. (A laugh.) After a scene of much confusion, during which several motions of adjournment were made, the Speaker left the chair, and the house again went into committee, Mr. MAGAN said that the hon. member for New Ross, whose words had been ordered to be taken down, had come out of that ordeal with such flying colours that he was ra ther ambitious to have his words taken down. (Loud laughter.) But he would not be so obstinate as that hon. gentleman, for if ho said anything offensive, ho was most desirous of withdrawing it. (Hear, hear.) At the same time he must say the hon. member for Clonmel did not seem disposed to allow him the necessary liberty to state naked facts. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) He was going to state the way in which the Government had be haved with respect to the imposition of the income tax in Ireland. (Laughter.) He was about to state that per sons who were considered to be accredited both by the Whigs and Peelites did by creating confusion and making statements such as ho had referred to, directly procure the defeat of Lord Derby and his Government. (Loud Opposi tion cheers.) The same parties now accused them (the Irish members) of wanting to require from any Govern ment the same thing that they required of the present Go vernment, and of wishing to bring back Lord Derby to power. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Magan) wished to state plainly that he did want to bring back Lord Derby, but he only wanted to bring him back for the purpose of putting him out again. (Loud laughter.) Now, with regard to those gentlemen on the opposite side who talked of being ' conscientious and independent, he must say that they were not independent, and their conciences were kept in the boroughs they represented. They were not allowed to bring their consciences there, and were left no discretion in the matter whatever. (Laughter.) If he might make use of a vulgar expression in reference to them, he would say that they were like a pennyworth of butter wrapped up in Mr. Sharman Crawford's bill. (Laughter.) He be -loved. he was the only member who professed independent politics in the house. (Loud laughter.) He claimed to be Independent, and it was perfectly well known why he said so. (Laughter.) Those gentlemen opposite who voted with the Government had violated the pledges they made to their constituents. (Oh, oh.) Ho said that in the most polite manner possible. (Much laughter.) There were two classes of Irish representative:. Some few of them, who voted with the Government, such as the hon. member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert) and his colleague, voted, he had no doubt, conscientiously. But there was another class who had no discretion left them. He rose on the part of those Irish members who had kept their pledges, for the purpose of saying that it would be extremely conve nient if in future no emissaries of the Government were found at the meetings of Irish members. (Loud laughter.) Colonel GREVILLE said that he was surprised that hon. gentlemen opposite, who appeared to be so thin skinned when imputations were ca st u p on them, should.side themselves cast reflections on others , and tell those on las e of the house that they could not be impartial on this sub ject. (Hear, hear.) He was surprised that the hon. mem ber for Carlow (Mr. Ball) should have made the allusions and cast the imputations he did, after the statements made by the hon. member for Westmeath. He heard rumours of the same kind, but his vote wash not nfl uenced by those I r umours and promises. The rig h i on. gentleman the President of the Board of Control, however, appeared to be somewhat influenced by them, because he said he would not consent to i m pose an income tax on I reland, alt hough he was now going to vote for that proposition, on the gr ound that Ireland was to have remitted to her 4,000,0001 . of consolidated annuities, or an annual charge of 245,0001. Now, a committee of the House of Lords decided that Ireland was not bound in equity to pay half of that charge. Yet Ireland was to have an income tax to the extent of 460,0001. and an increase of the spirit duties—(hear)—the are should of which would be that for 131,0001. remitt e d , should have to pay 500,0001 . additional taxation. He e was g l a d to see Irish members opposite ( on th e Government side) holding themselves independent of the Government, and withholding their support from a measure for imposing the income tax on Ireland. There were questions of vital importance to the interests of that country still unsettled, and while they remained so it was n party should continu e independent e:festshaery that the I r i s h one side or the other, and avoid merging its strength into that of either. Mr. E. BALL had understood the hon. gentleman the member for Westmeath (Mr. Ragan) to say that a certain member of that house, who was an accredited agent of the Whig and Peel party, had intimated to the Irish members that, if they would assist in. turning out Lord D er by' s mi . nistry, Ireland notsho)uldHeiA,l)r. o made li a bl e t o th e property tax. (Hear, hear. k . Ball) did not know much of the usages of that house, but he was quite sure the public Li ( 4 47 , t 7.• out of doors would ransider that, if that was trne,f f a l sigoist tion of all good faith and good feeling had been con!tmi and that it ought not to pass without explanationtaesx.„ ti hear.) He did not know who the accredited agent allti e CM'ci isc w re e di ul t d a to was—whether it was the Secretary of the Treasury or b b le e given as should wipe away not ; but, if so, he hoped stuhcehan imputationexplanation ofd conduct. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FRENCH Lad charged his right hon. friend (Sir C. Wood) with not c rying out the promise inferred fro m the declaration he made to the Irish members in that house in reference to the extension of the income tax to Ireland, and his right hon. friend had endeavoured to answer that charge by explaining thet the question now stood on a dif ferent footing, in consequence of the imposition of the tax being accompanied by th e remission of the Consolidated Annuities ; and that inasmuch as that remission would relieve the land nom a charge to which it was now liable, he did not consider himself bound by the declaration. The house would recollect that the sOtement of the tight hon. gentleman against extending thc' income tax to Ireland was made in reference to the proposal for that purpose brought forward last year by the rij.ht hon. member for Bucks, which did not in any way affect the land, con sequently, the right hon. gentleman's explanation was in no way applicable. The right hon. gentleman, it would be remembered, called on Irish members to beware how they permitted the small end of the wedge to be inserted , and advised them not to allow the income tax to be extended to Ireland in any shape ; and now that a proposal for im posing that tax to a far greater extent was brought for ward, he turned round upon the Irish members, and aban doning altogether his declaration against this tax in any shape as applicable to Ireland, he supported it, giving as his only explanation that some relief was to be given to the land. (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL remarked that it would be better if the hon. gentleman had a charge to make against his right hon. friend—that he could not honestly and honourably vote for the Government proposal of the income tax, which ho had declared his intention to vote for—if the hon. gentleman had such a charge to make it would be better that he should make it when his right hon. friend was in the house, that he might have the opportunity of meeting it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FRENCH—I did not know the right hon. gentle man was not in the house. Lord J. RUSSELL—His right hon. friend was in the house the whole of the earlier part of the evening during the discussion that had taken place, when the hon. gentle man, who was also present, might have brought forward his cha rge —(h ear)—but he had thought it more convenient to make it i n the absence of his right hon. friend, and very prob a bl y i n doing so he had exercised a wise judg ment. (Oh, oh.) His right hon. friend had, however, fully explained hi s conduct in the debate on the income tax, and he (Lord J. Russell) believed that explanation was considered satisfactory to the house and to the country. (Hear, hear.) His right hon. friend then said that he con sidered the proposition of the right hon. member for Bucks (Mr. Disreali) to impose part of the income tax on Ireland for three years ought not, under the circumstances, to be carried out, but that in considering the proposal brought forward, by the present Government he thought, upon the whole balancing the advantage with the disadvantage— that Ireland would be a gainer by the remission of the consolidated annuities (that remission comprehending not only those advances made on account of the distress in Ire land, but those also which were made for the necessities of the workhouses) to an extent that would more than coun terbalance the burden of the income tax. (Hear, hear.) And in the exercise of a judgment which ho had full right to exercise, his right hon. friend declared that ho would vote in favour of the proposition. (Hear, hear.) Such in substance was the explanation which his right hon. friend gave—he went into details on the subject, and he (Lord J. Russell) was sure that many Irish members, and certainly very many other members, had also come to the opinion that it was better for Ireland to have the remission of these consolidated annuities, and to bear the income tax, than to go on paying these annuities. (Hear.) He had, he thought, said sufficient to answer the charge of leis hon. friend opposite, that his right hon. friend had voted for this measure without fully explaining the reasons that had induced him to do so, and he would suggest if his hon. friend (Mr. French) had anything further to say on the subject, that he should take an opportunity of saying it when his right hon. friend the President of the Board of Control was in the house. (Hear, hear.) Mr. FRENCH did not know when he spoke that the right hon. gentleman, the member for Halifax, was not in the house. Did the noble lord mean to impute to him (Mr. French) that he had mane a charge against the right hon. gentleman in his absenno which he would not have made in his presence? (Hefei', and Oh.) If not, what did he mean? He could assure the noble lord that he was not the person to shrink from bringing forward charges against any minister, and in the presence of that minister, when he thought them well founded. Sir R. INGLIS was ready to give to Irish members the largest latitude of time and of eloquence, but, on the part of English members, he must appeal to them now to allow them to proceed with the business of the country. (Hear, hear.) He wished to call attention to a subject which he had brought under the notice of the house on every occa sion of the renewal of the income tax since 1842, viz., the injustice in point of principle, while they made all in comes under a certain amount exempt, to charge the tax upon the whole of the income where it exceeded the limit fixed.? (Hear, hear.) That was if they fixed the limit at which the tax should begin at 1001. a year or 1501. a year, it should apply only to the incomes beyond that amount and not to the whole sum..k The extension of the tax to incomes of 1001. would extend the injustice of which he complained to a class of persons who perhaps were least able to bear it. This principle of levying the tax pressed very severely on clergymen of small incomes, half-pay officers, and others, who were compelled to maintain the position of gentlemen on slender means, 41. 7s. 6d. a year was a small sum to members of that house, but it was a serious amount to persons whose incomes were only 1501. a year. What he contended was, that whatever the limit was, whether 1001, or 1501., at which the income should become liable to the tax—the tax should be charged only upon the amount by which that limit was exceeded. Two objections only had he ever heard against this plan—viz., the difficulty of remodelling the arrangements ; and the loss to the revenue. With regard to the first, he believed, if his right lion friend would direct one of the functionaries in his office to turn his attention to the subject, the diffi culty might be met in a fortnight ; and as to the second— the question was not so much what the revenue would lose, as whether they did not, by the system they adopted, in flict a positive hardship and injustice. He wouldnot pro pose any formal resolution, but would reserve to himself the right of doing so at a future time. The CHANCELLOR of (the EXCHEQUER rose to reply ; but The CHAIRMAN said there was no question before the committee. He had not stopped the hon. baronet, because he did not know but that he was about to conclude with an amendment. The observations of the hon. baronet did not, however, refer to that part of the resolutions which he (the chairman) had read, and he must be permitted to read on until he came to some part to which any hon. gentleman desired to propose amendment. The first part of the resolution was then read, viz., " That it is the opinion of this committee, that, towards raising the supply granted to her Majesty, there shall be raised annually during the terms hereinafter limited the several rates and duties following (that is to say), for and in respect of the property in any lands, tenements, or here ditaments, in the United Kingdom, and for and in respect of every annuity, pension, or stipend." Mr. FITZGERALD had an amendment to interpose at this point, the object of which was to exempt incomes in Ireland arising from trades and professions from this tax. He concurred in the principle, if the tax was to be made permanent in this country, of extending it to Ireland. And the feeling in Ireland was not so much against the extension of the income tax to that country as against its application to trades and professions. His amendment would exempt Ireland only from a part of Schedule D, and it was that part that required expensive machinery and those inquisitorial proceedings which would tend more than anything else to make the tax unpopular. The total amount of funded property now held in Ireland was about 38,000,000/., producing about 1,300,0001. a year . L an d might be taken at 11,000,0001., public salaries and county salaries at nearly 1,000,0001. The income from railway property was about 7,000,0001. a year, and then came the banking property. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had estimated the income tax to be derived from Ireland at 450,0001., which at three per cent. was calculated in a. gross income of 15 millions ; but he (Mr. Fitzgerald) esti mated the gross income at 17 millions ; and if so, the income tax derivable from trades and professions would be very small indeed. The next question was what would be the probable expense of collection? He admitted that if the income tax was applied to Dublin, Cork, and Bel fast, it would be profitable, notwithstanding the expense of collection ; but what machinery was there for the collection of the tax in the small towns and villages and districts over which incomes above 1001. a year derived from trades and professions, besides those of the clergy, as well of the established church as the Roman catholics and Presbyterians, were scattered. You would not avail your self of any existing machinery for the collection of the tax, and it was that which induced Sir R. Peel to state that the income tax would not be productive in Ireland. The existing Poor-law Boards were unfit for the purpose,on account of the political and sectarian feelings with whic h they abounded. It would then be necessary to create a enormous ex p e nse. He (Mr. Fitzgerald) maintained that t n h e e w reasonsstag extending over every part of the country at an which Sir R. Peel felt in 1842 to be conclusive ag ainst the tax, existed now in undiminished force ; and in asking the house to assent to a proposition exempting trades and professions in Ireland from the income tax, he only followed the opinion of Sir R. Poet. He admitted that it was not just in the abstract to impose this tax on land and other property, and exempt trades and profes sions,oe but the ground of the exemp tion was that no fin ance minister proceeded to justify on. Supposing the vote ho had given on the general ouesCi minister ought to impose a ta x which would not be pro ductive. The hon. gentlema n then had ful, and a dissolution followed, the had been success c ry at every hustings in England would have been that the that the amendment of the hon. memberfor Hertfordshiro to Ireland, because income tax should be extended in this Fitzgerald)believed it was a He (Mr. cou ntry it was believe d that this was a free tr ade budget and because it was so ho supported it. The amend ment he prop?s . ed was a real one, and one which he should p c o r i e l s e s c t t i o o n a c o li f v s h i e o ninocuomtehetaxgrr as nd re t g h a a r t de th d e t e ra xp d e e ns ts a e n o a f p t r h o e . fess Sir ie J. n p w A o N b e G s T o o g r N e a r t e p a u s d a t o t r e e d n d a e r r t m p o l u v d r u a d ct v i e v r e t e d . to by Mr. Fitzgerald, that a compact existed between a cer tain portion of the Irish members and tfhe members of the l a t m e r G o . w v e n i m T e E n s t . m HE said f o aware vetted any er u o c n h compact. the e r voted against the Go vernmeent were na ent the sincere, oth t e h r e they night, s haveWith before the hou se , h e would be no party to a sham, rather than v o t e f or it would walk ounretsopefctthetohotulmotion Mr. F. SCULLY th ought the h and man who last sp o k e h a d not dealt o fa i r an ly d wi le th arn h ed on. ge ni n e t m le: bers from I re l an d who voted the other night in favour of (Laughter.) They budget. (Laughter on the voted considering the the budget. now to the question before the hous question to be, whether there should be abudget or no Opposi tion house, the benche s.) income tax being g p h a t l e a r tab fr le om as extended to Ireland, he thought it the duty of Irish repre sentatives sentatives to endeavour, by amendments, to make that tax sib r l i e sh to me t m he he lri rs sh on peo t p h l e e. aß ppo en s e it. w io ed n th ix e te benches.) He contended that—according to the report of the House of Lords—the consolidated annuities exceeded in amount, even doubled in amount, the highest point at which an income or property tax had ever reached, even in the period of the war. (Hear.) By the proposed ar rangement, the tenants who held farms of 3001. or 4001. per annum would gain, as they would pay less under the income tax than they were now paying under the consoli dated annuities. It was a question, therefore, that affected the occupiers of the soil, and he was anxious it should be argued fairly in that point of view. At present tlgro o ; as an immense amount of emigration going on, and tenant ss emigrating was nearly altogether the indus t rir o ra t es and farmers. He believed it was the heavy Pgat those taxes local burdens, and the unctrain g the te ose nants taxes would hereafter be, that w 4