The Sun. — London, England, 1847-02-03 00:00:00

scerning bis mas• itiCS-- -6 3 title of I."—thol, ;eauji of Ipportu• r refer• L lerve at )length nub tra• genius pea 1 to the Df Bul riot cal ncd to dvisa tion of every )t refe r 7 odd-- giber' rise ill° IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE Or• LOhDS, Feb. 2. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat oil the Woolsack at Five o'clock. POOR-LAW. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition frcns Rye union against the Poor Removal Bill, the petitioners stating that it was both expensive and inconvenient. they believed that the effect of this Bill would b-, that i t would induce landlords to pull down c.)ttages, and t. bus large numbers of persops would be crowded into t. be cottage s ihat remained, and tench immorality .ust of necessity_ arise. He was disposed to move for a select committee cn this subject ; but he saw tha( a C( ►mmittee had been moved for in another place. The LORD CHANCELLOR said there was no ob jet tion to the select committ, e. The Duke of RICHMOND was glad to hear it. DRAINAGE OF LANDS. The NOBLE DUKE said that two years ago a Select :mmittee had been appointed for considering the su 'oject of the drainage of lands, and it was supposed th at this drainage was not to be compulsory on the la, ndlords, and that it referred to Ireland more than to , gland; but that was a mistake in both instances, for it was actually more for England than Ireland, and the BI '1 did not at all consider the consent of the land for ds. From having a cold, he presumed he was last night misunderstood, for he was represented as a eying that he was (1, sirous of reducing the em 'et of the law of entail, whereas precisely the con tra ry was the case. He should move for the reappoint ment of the same Select Committee, with the addition of I. t - :rd Langdale, who bad paid much attention to the subj: 34 t. Is Jr. i BROUGHAM hoped his Noble Friend would urgt, ti to subject of entail on the Committee. The Duke of RICHMOND would certainly make that or le of the earliest subjects. Th e Committee was granted. DIS' rILLATION OF SPIRITS FEW' SUGAR. Lord ' STANLEY presented petitions from the distil lers of the county of Wicklow, and other places, where the pro posed measures of the Government had created much a farm, as it was believed that distillation from sugar u nuld materially affect the interests of the estab lishmen is in Ireland. Unless the measure were free from th e defects which it presented at present, he did not apprehend any great good would arise from it. If, hovveve r, it operated whether for good or harm, it must materia. I .ly affect the British and colonial produceis, and thot le interested in breweries and distilleries. He bad no wish to prolong the discussion of the question at preset tt, but he rose only to express a hope tnat the Measure would not be proposed as a permanent one, without the fullest consideration, and all parties having an oppe tunity of fully stating their case, and having it °onside tnd by their Lordships. There was one point to Which Isla wished at present to call the attention of tee Noble ?L ord, the President of the Board of Trade. It was in refer x ,nce to the Act of last session, by which the duty on sugv,ii raised in the colonies was reduced to 14s. per erns, at that on foreign sugar fixed at 21s. This was la cliff( :rential duty of 75., which was gradually, year 1 )3 , year, to be reduced until 1831, when t hey were to become equal. If sugar was intro& teed into use in breweries and ; distilleries now, it Would be principally foreign that would be employed. Now, i f sugar at 21s. a cwt. could now be employed in these ve, arks and compete with malt, what would be the effect in 1851, when the duty was equalise( 1 ? Would it not give the grower of foreig n sugar a great advantage over the home pro ducer. This was a matter to which he earnestly called the cons ideration of the Noble Lord the President of the Bot ird of Trade. He would not say what course should be adopted, but he submitted that nca measure of a permanent nature should be agrcte d to, unless they were satisfied that the various i nterests concerned were fully consulted and con sidered.. They might adopt one of the two following courses : they might alter the scale of duty of last year, 10 as t o keep the 21s. duty permanent, or they might IT duce the duty on malt, year by year, till such time as t. he two duties were equals-ed. He would con clude by asking the Noble Lord, the President of the Board of Trade, whether he had any objection to pro duce the report of the Commissioners appointed to in tquire intc • the employment of sugar in breweries and distilleri c s. The Ea .rl of CLARENDON said he would state in a day or twt whether the report could be produced without inconvenience to the proceedings of the Government. With respect to the measures proposed, he assured the Noble LI ird that nothing would be done without full considert.it ion of all interests concerned. IRISH POOR-LAWS. Lord F;ROUGHAM rose to complain of what had been reps irted of him the previous night, in the state ment he : had made respecting the poor-laws in Ireland. The newspaper press were generally very ac curate in their reports, but, at the pre sent time, when so much feverish anxiety prevailed in Ireland repecting the proceedings of their Lordships, it was right that the most accurate accounts should be published. In the present instance words had been attributed to him which he had never spoken.—(Hear.) In presenting the petition from Liverpool he c irefully abstained from giving any opinion on the matter to which it had reference. What he said was that a FONSitioll bad been made tLat the support of such immigran';s should fall on Irish mortgagees. Whether it fell on t he Irish landlord or not was an entirely dif ferent qui !stion, on which he avoided, as he bad said, riving any opinion, because if they were to throw the expense entirely on mortgagees it would be Only a ta: K. upon the landlords in the name of the mort gagees. _ BiTCE : WHEAT, &c., IMPORTATION BILL. Messes gers from the Commons brought up this Bill, which, on the moticn of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, Was read a first time. POOR-LAW (IRELAND) BILL. Lord f;ITANLEY wished to ask a question of the Noble M arquis (the Marquis of Lansdowne) with refe rence b ) tke Poor-law Commission. Several Bills had beela recently introduced into the other House of Pathan ) ent, which would, no doubt, give increased Power Lo the Poor-law Commissioners, who were the principal machinery in carrying out the Irish Poor-law 411 . Pie. therefore, thought that the whole, subject of the pomr-law settlement of this country and of Ireland should he brought under the review of their Lordships. Ile also understood that the Poor. law Commission was about to be re-modelled. He, therefore, wished to kno w whether it was the intention of the Go .verneaP nt to re-model that Commission, whether the Irish Poor-law Commission would be independent of the English one,: and whether the way in which this re- Modellin g was proposed to take place would be laid before their Lordships before the Bill which would confe r tb ose increased powers on the Commission. to '11::‘, M i arq uis of LANSDOWNE was understood thatit was the intention of the Go , v ernatee t to remodel the Poor-law Com mission. wit he c.Duld not state then whether the management of the poe r-laws of both countries would be placed under the control of ene* Commissioner. The Bill to which the Noble Lord referred was not of a tei nporary, but of a permanent nature. There was not the) same urgent necessity for the passing of the measure as of others. It would be before their Lord ships at the earliest possible period. The conversation then dropped. EDUCATION. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, on Friday he should lay before their Lordships a minute adopted by the Committee of the Privy Council, and on that day he would state certain alterations and additions which the Committee had suggested for the purpose of expending the funds voted by Parliament for the purpose of national education. The NOBLE MARQUIS laid on the table a copy of the correspondence which had taken place between this country mid Austria, Russia, Prussia, and Switz.r and, in 1845. Also a copy of the treaty concluded between this country and the King of the Sandwich Islands, which, he was happy to state, had been made on the best possible terms.—(Laughter.) INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table of the House the concession of the King of Saxony to the treaty of international copyright, concluded between her Britannic Majesty and the King of Prussia in the year 1846. their Lordships then adjourned till Thursday next. HO US. OF COMMONS, Feb. 2. The SPEARED took the Chair a few minutes before Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following Bills were read a second time: Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Rail way (No. 1) (Smeth wick Deviation). General Terminus and Glasgow Harbour Railway Branches. Liskeard and Caralon Railway. Lynn and Ely, Ely and Huntingdon, and Lynn and Dereham Railways Amalgamation. Norfolk Railway (Yarmouth Extension, &c.) Shropshire U n i on R ailways and Cana (Lease to the London and North-Western Railway Company). LYNN AND NORWICH BRANCH RAIL WAY BILL. The report of the Standing Orders' Committee was brought up. The standing orders had been complied with. GLASGOW AND GREENOCK (CALEDONIAN) RAILWAY BILL. It was reported that the standing orders, so far as this railway is concerned, ought to be disp.rised with. ROCHESTER AND MILTON RAILWAY BILL. The standing orders have been e applied with. ROCHDALE WATERWORKS. The Bill for these works was introduced. ILLICIT DISTILLATION. Mr. BROTHER roN presented several petitions from temperance societies, complaining of the extent of illicit distillation. _ _ _ TEN HOURS' BILL. Aar. OCTAVIUS DUNCONIBE prosented a petition from Huddersfield in support of the 'f en Hout...".' Fttn.,,ry OPENING OF THE PORTS. M r. MARK. PHILIPS presented a petition from the Corporation of Manchester for opening the ports and the suspension of the navigation laws. MAGISTERIAL OPPRESSION. Mr. T. DUNCOM lilt; presented a petition float a Person of the name of Roberts, a solicitor, and also frt,in another of th e name o f C ropper, w h o, w i t h t h ree o th e rs, had been engaged as servants, and had left their places 'n consequence of their masters not having ccmplied with the terms of their engagements. These persons littcl been apprehended at Sheffield on a Saturday even "g, and had been keptlin custody all the Sunday, with out being permitted to communicate with their friends. TWO. of th em were put u p on t h e i r tr i a l by th.? rnagis era. havinr, previously sent for the assistance of the • axely so.ic.tor ; 'but botore he arrived they had been sentenced to three months' imprisonment. Mr. A•oberta begged the magistrates to grant a now trial, but THE SUN, IJONDON,- it was refused, and the two other persons charged with the (4, , nce tree ~übs,quenkly senten(•ed to the same punishment. Hr (Mr. Dunemnbe) had to ask the Right Hon. the St , er, , t;try oz Stlte for the Home Department for th,- fames of the magiArates, with a view to obtain an explanation of their conduct, which he considered 11 &I and oppr,ssive in the extreme. There were al,o four petitions froul the wiv;.s of those partb , A, prsy ing for inquiry into the circumstances by that House. He wove(' that the e petiti , ,ns he printed with the votes, in or , Ur t,, facilitate that inquiry. EXETER, YEOVIL. AND DORCHESTER RAILWAY. The Bill for this line was read a first time. THE ANDOVER UNION. Mr. ETWALL gave notice, &11 - OrlTuesday, the 16fh ins;ant, he would brine under th' consideration of the the cvidencf, taken before the Andover Union Committee last session, with the report made upon the same. Mr. VILLIERS, for the Hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Bright), who was ab ent, bogged leave to postpone the m..tion of that lion. Member, which stood for con sideration to-night, gill thtt! dly fortnight. CHARITABLE TRUSTS. Lord JOHN MANNERS gave notice of his inten tion of bringing in a Bill r,latint , to charitable trusts. THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS. Air. MACKINNON' gave notice of his intention of bringing under tke consideration of the House the corn po,ition and mode of managem,nt of the Ecclesiastical Commission. CORPORAL PUNNIIMENT. Mr. DUNCOM BE renewt.d a motion, notice of which he gave last session, with respect to the infliction of corporal punishment in the army.—Agreed to. TURNIP STEALING —CONVICTION OF TWO CHILDREN IN ESSEX. Dr. BOWRINQ wished to draw the attention of he Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary 'of State 'or the Home Department to the following state ment, which had appeared in the Times :—On the 2d of January two children, the son and daughter of a poer man named Lee, who, for the last three years,- had occupied a cottage in the parish of Chingford. in Essex, for which he paid 2s. 6d, a week, were detected by the foreman of a person named Green picking up turnip. They were Wren by the man to Chiugford, for the purpose of being given into the charge of a police-constable, and to Waltham for the purpose of getting a magistrate to hear the case. Mr. Preston, a magistrate, heard the case, and before him the foreman swore that the turnips were worth 3d. The children were convicted ie the penalty and costs, amouming to 1/. Os. 61. In default of payment they were to be imprisoned for fourteen days in Ilford gaol. They were taken there in the course of a day on which a severe frost prevailed, fifteen or sixteen miles. On the following day they were lib,rated, in consequence of their father having borrowed the money and paid the fine and expenses. He (Dr. 11)wring) hot been informed by the father and mother of the childre', that they , 4 ere ready to swear that from the Saturday to the Sunday the children were released, they bad nothing to eat save a two-pound loaf. He was also informed that on the following day, the 4th of January, a man and his daughter were convicted by the eatne magistrate of steal ing a few coals, which were valued at one penny. They were released from custody, however, as the grand jury ignored the bill. New, he wished to know whether the conduct of this magistrate had excited the attention of the Right. Hen. Baronet ? Sir GEORCiE GREY said, in conseqeenee of the notice of the Hon. and Learned I.lember, he had caused an inquiry into the circumstances as detailed, which were similar to these which had appeared in the news papers.—(gear. hear.) In the Times of to-day, however, the Honourable Gentleintio would find a letter from the Rev. Mr. Reed, the Rector of Ching ford, which gave a very different versien of the matter. The only information he had been able to obtain, in ad ditirn to that furnished by the Rev. Mr. Reed, was derive d from the Commissioners of Police, within whose limits the case had occurred. These statements went to show that the gentleman who first directed attention to the subject was mistaken, and that therefore the occur rence had been greatly exaggerated. It appeared that the ages of the children were ten and thirteen— that they were convicted of stealing turnips, and were sentenced and fined in the way mentioned. There were statements in the report of the Com• missioners with respect to the conduct of the parents which he did not wish to read ; it appeared however that they were gipsies, and that the father was the owner of a pony, so that they acre not in the state of helpless distress alluded to. He should feel happy to place the report in the hands of the lion. Member ; and on reading it he could not fail to be of opinion that the statement was highly coloured, and consequently far from corrtct. IRISH DISTRESS. Sir ROBERT PEEL presented petitions from se veral places in the county of Longford, setting forth that the population of the county amounted to 27,950, three-fourths of whom were upon the verge of starva tion, and that 8,150 of them were employed upon the public works; that the land in all the baronies of the county was divided into very small divisions, great numbers of which remained until the present time, and the petitioners prayed that the im mectate attention>f the Government shoulu be culled to their condition, ntid such tna.tires adopted as should prevent the disastrous results of such a state of things. ANNEXATION OF CRACOW. Sir DE LACY EVANS wished to ask the lion. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) whether it was his intention again to postpone the motion of which he had given notice, upon the subject of the annexation of Cracow ? Mr. HUME was very desirous of bringing forward his motion, but as the Government had not yet laid the papers promised by them upon the table of the House, he hardly knew what course to adopt with reference to the subject. He did not wish to enter into the conside ration of the subject until the documents were laid before the House. BEQUESTS ACT (IRELAND). Mr. D. O'CONNELL presented a petition, signed by two archbishops, and several other prelates of the Catholic Church, praying for an alteration in the Bequests Act. TEN HOURS' BILL. Lord GEORGE BEN riNcK presented several peti tions from Chorky and other place*, in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill (,s we. understood). MINISTERIAL MEASURES. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the whole of the Bills embody ing the measurus of her Majesty's Government, in re sp+•ct to Ireland, would be laid upon the table of the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that three Bills were already before the House calcu lated to affect the present distress i❑ Ireland. The Bill for carrying out the Treasury minutes would shortly be ready. The Bill for the consolidation of the Drainage Acts would t.ot be brought in at present; the existing Drainage Act being already very well understood in Ireland, and operations were still going on under the provisions of that Act. The Bill for the reclamation of the waste lands was in a state of forwardness, and would shortly be brought under the consideration of the House ; and the Bill for the sale of estates, which was also in a forward state, would shortly be ready to be introduced. ACCIDENT ON THE GYIEAT WESTERN RAIL- W AY. Colonel SIBTITORP wished to ask the Hon. Memb.,r for Derby (Mr. Strutt), who was at the head of the Railway Commissioners, whe,her any compensation had been given, or would be given, to the surviving relatives of those two individuals who had lost their lives, upon a recent occasion, upon the Great Western Railway? had looked over the evidence, and the just remarks of the Coroner during the inquest, and it was his decided opinior that some compensation should be awarded to the survivors. He wished, therefore, to know whether it was the intention of the Commissioners to provide for the relief of those unfortunate individuals who had lost th.ir lives—(Laughter)—he meant those who had been deprived by that accident of their relatives, and of; perhaps, the means of support? Mr. STRUTT was not able to answer the question, because it did not come within the province of the Rail. way Board. It had no power to deal with such cases at present. Whether the Act incorporating the board would give them such power he could not say. MILB ANK PRISON. Mr. T. DUNCOMMBE seeing the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- . ment in his place he wished to put a question to him. He undfrstood that a third report of the Commissioners ap pointed to inquire into the state of Milbank prison had been delivered at the Home office, and he wished to know whether the Right Hon. Baronet had any objec tion to lay the report upon the table of the House, and to print the reports in the same volume with the evi dence ? Sir GEORGE GREY had received yesterday evening documents from theC:;mcnissioners, which required to be altered. The Hoe. Gentleman was awa re that evidence 03 the subject was before the House. Mr. ESCOTT felt bound, as one of the Commis sioners, to report in the same form as the other Comm is sinners. PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE. Sir tu,le F e . , THESI4R E said that he wished to call the at tention of th e H ouse to a su bj ect o f t h e utm o A t irn por as connected with its privileges. It would bP in the rucolleetionhotf the House that some time ago an actin having„ was s o obedience t a o ga a lf w " a t by the authority of that House, r t r h a e nt Sergeant the - p at a - k A e r r m , issued by and brought, him before npuh,tsfiadeadn arrested a Mr. Howard, exam i ned. on Huse, atelteionb4r theof that House to h b ) ,- , hl laweiaa v e at of the i n tguhned under been its Q raised , it. (a, a justification of I °ritY ; and issues at argument took, h Bench, and, after consi place in hu Co-irt nf y the C . olirt to d--libe &Table time having been tal rate on its judgment, a r tlar n t , plea of jus6 flea , ni t t () . tha T , hi; f ,t; u l. judgme n t,"h-•la: g the - t . s n e latry,i,nasst not more which,n ir L it had t e principle on more urravouratile tv‘o'hbiecic' it n ij s r t ( d )c e; v e d d e' a i' s a settled and establishebl;elialwa,lwioowueldd eat the have place d ail their most important established of purpose t the e 1 jlit!c- . .—(Ch p ef 7 r: L ) e '' The sub mercy of -the courts of jeet having been brought under thd attention 1-1,,u,e, a Select Committee was apponted for the Considering the best course to be udepted ;or the vindication of its privileges, and after a careful consideration of the whole circumstinces, and looking at the ground on which the judgment proceeded, and the Committee being ex t r emely desirous not to recommend any extreme mea sura in the assertion of their privileges, as long as any hope remained of deciding it by a legal tribunal, a report was presented to the House rce,,minending th a t a writ of error should be brought. On a division, a tna iort:t- of that Ilou,e acquiesceJ in that rei3oulmendatien. ' . .A. writ of error was granted, and in the course of last year the question was argued before the Court of Ex- WEDNESDAY • chequer . Chamber, and he had the satisfaction to inform the House that this very day that Cu urt had unanimously pronounced a decision reversing the judg ment of the Court of Queen's Bench.—(Loud cheers.) It might be important to the House to know the grounds on whieh this important decision was given, but the grounds on whicn the judgment was given rendered it unnecessary. He hoped, however. be might be permitted, that: the result of this, inquiry confirmed and sanctioned the report and recommendation of the Select Committee, and he should thereloreniove that the short-hand writer's notes should be printed, and circulated amongst the Members of that House POSTPONEMENT OF MOTIONS. Mr. P. SCROYE said that he did not wish to inter pose between the debate of last night the motion of which he had given notice, namely--`' That the lives of the people of Ireland ought to be as valuable in the eye of the law as the lives of the people of England ; conse quently, it is expedient to extend to Ireland the main principle of the English poor. law, namely, the right of the destitute poor to relief, from a public provision, to save them from perishing." If other Hon. Members were willing to postpone their notices he would at once follow the example. Mr. B. ESCO rT said he also did not wish to em barrass the Government, and he would not press the House to a discussion on his motion. LETTING OF LANDED PROPERTY IN IRELAND. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said that the reso lution which he proposed, namely, " That it appears to this llou*e, from the reports of various Committees and Commissions, that the system generally adopted in times past in the letting and management of landed property in Ireland, has been one of the main causes of the presen distressed state of that country, and the disordered state of its social relations ; and that no measures can be effectual in producing a demand for labour, or improving the condition of the people, which sh-0,11 not include such an amendment of the laws of landlord and tenant as shall give to the improving tenant in occupation a suffi cient permanency of tenure, or else establish the tenant's right to claim by law full compensation for all berm. fits created by the expenditure of his labour and capital on the premises in question," was intimately associated with the question under de bate, and he accordingly felt some difficulty in yielding to the Noble Lord. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that it was his intention to brie nz in a Bill for the very same object as that pro• posed by the Hon. Gentleman at the very earliest possible moment. On account of the pressure of business, the Government were at the present moment unable to give the question that attention which it demanded. Nlr. S. CRAWFORD said that he would fix Thurs _ day next fur the discussion of his motion. Mr. ROEBUCK said that he felt very great difficulty in giving up his motion; if he did so, be considered that he would have some claim upon the Noble Lord at a future day for his motion, which was, that a Committee of the whole House be appointed, for the purpose of referring to it the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, with a view to extend the operation of the skid Act to Ireland. FINANCIAL STATEMENT. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as soon as the House had consented to the second reading of these Bills, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would bring forward the whole of the question as it regarded finance. His Right Hon. Friend would make his financial state ment on an early day, and then it would be competent for the Hon. Member to bring forward his resolution. ABSENTEES-IRELAND. Mr. 11. GRATTAN said, that with regard to the motion of which he had given notice—namely for a return of the absentees from Ireland, stating their names and annual incomes drivel from property therein ; specifying the counties in which their estates are situate, and distinguishing such as are temporarily or more than six months absent from Ireland: that the guardians of the poor. law unions in Ireland do furnish an account of the annual value of the property of all absentees in their respective unions assessed to the poor rare : that the Commissioners, under the Act 5 and 6 Vic., c. 35, do furnish an account of the aggregate amount of all property in Ireland taxed under the provisions of that Act, an :1 other Acts continuing the same: also, a return of the number of persons re siding in England, or temporarily absent there from, charged under the Act 5 and 6 Vic., e. 35, and the Act for continuing the same, in respect of profits and gains arising from any allowance annuity, stipend, or trade in Ireland ; together with the total amount of the duties levied in respi-ct of such profits and gain; that the governor and directors of the Bank of Ireland do furnish an account of the amount of all annuities, dividends, and shares of annuities payable by the said company out of the public revenues of the United kingdom to or to the use or benefit of any persons not resident in Ireland —he was in the same predicament as the Honourable Member for Bath.—(llear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said that his measure was preliminary to others; now the return which he (Mr. Grattan) moved for was a corollary to his (Mr. Roebuck's) motion.—(Laughter.) He wished, therefore, to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman, the S'cretary for Ireland, would have any objection to grant the return? Mr. LABOUCHERE said, that if he were inclined to grant the rem!), he did not know how to come at the inforination. Mr. H. GRATTAN—There was no difficulty what ever in the matter. There was the list (pointing to a paper in his hand), and he would be happy to furnish the particulars, without asking for the pay or the permis sion of the Irish Secretary. LETTER-CARRIERS. Mr. GROGAN moved fur a return showing the amount of wages paid to the letter-carriers of class No. 1 of this metropolis, on the Ist day of July, 1846, and also the average amount of all other emoluments received by them respectively ; similar returns for the letter-carriers of classes Nos. 2 and 3 ; returns showing the amount of wages now paid to the letter•carriers in each class, and any other compensation they had in ad dition ; also similar returns for the letter-carriers of Dublin, with the emoluments they had in addition to their salary.—Agreed to. On the order of the day being read for resuming the adjourned debate on the LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL, Mr. G. A. HAMILTON was desirous to express the gratification he felt at the close of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night, where he evinced the sympathy he enter tamed for the sufferings of the people of Ireland. He really believed that it was impossible for any one to realise to himself the extent of the misery which had taken place in Ireland who had not had the opportunity of observing it for himself. Why, in the part of Ireland where he resided, within twenty miles of Dublin, where the poor were within the reach of markets, where every thing had been done which couid be done to mitigate or to avert this dreadful calamity, he said that it was most melancholy to observe the gradual approach of this fearful visitation. It was most melancholy to observe the gradual sinking of the smaller farmers from a state of comfort to a state of poverty ; the gradual disappear ance of his little luxuries, of his slender comforts ; the disappearance of his pig, of his p ou lt r y, o f hi s artices of household furniture—all indicative of the gradual and certain approach of this visitation. Still more melan choly was it to observe even among the labour ing classes the approach of this calamity; the mournful countenances, the desponding and downhearted appearance so unusual among the peasantry of Ireland, all telling a tale of famine not Likely to be misunderstood. He knew enough of Ire land to know that if this state of things existed in a part of the country so favourably placed, they might easily imagine what must be the state of people in the more remote parts. There were two or turee points in the speech of the Right Honourable Barouet opposite to which he felt it his duty to refer. He imputed to the gentlemen of Ireland a degree of supineness, because they had not availed themselves of the provisions of an Act, passed in the beginning of last session, by which money might be provided for the improvement of estates ; and also that they had not availed themselves sufficiently of the provisions of another Act passed at a later period of the session, being an Act for the better drainage of estates in Ireland. With regard to the first of these Acts, it was tried and found to be in operative. He saw the Right lion. Baronet, the late Secretary for the Home Department, in his place, and it might be in his remembrance that, in a conversation between him, the Honourable Baronet the Member for Derry, and himself (Mr. Hamilton), they informed the Right lion. Baronet that a particular clause in that Act (the clause which made it imperative that they should apply to the Court of Chancery) would stultify it altogether. The House had already been informed that the operation of the second Act, which ap plied to the drainage of estates, was rendered inoperative by a - defect in the third clause The Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer • Ceinplained that the gentry of Ireland had made presentments under the Labour-rate Act too freely, and without any previous inquiry into the ne cessity of the works that were to be undertaken. Now, the truth was, the Act required no preliminary inquiry on the part of the gentry, while the presentment sessions were not called together except to meet an emergency, and the consequence was the rate payers and gentry had to make their present • inept under the most unfavourable circumstances. Ibis appeared to constitute a very important difference between the Act passed at the commencement and at the end of the session. He thought the Right Honour ' able Gentleman had dealt rather hardly with t he relief committees in Ireland. No doubt a buses existed. There mi g ht b e t h ose on the i la lists s ' who were not entitled to relief ; but it should be re collected ncosunasilseteodurosef Wclaeragiyormtehneaenidermgya: be best acquainted of the district—(llear, any case of extreme distress. g co is l t le r c a t t e4 that the t t h i e la b t to Flow ihen could the committees c ? ers li to e take on themselves to 7-te an iatrh ) -1:h h oe o represent wassupposed circumstances en fro to n3 th r e el o ie ffi f judicious. Having • • 'the lists was extremely revise c m :7 ,ll lll l e r., t v e rs o T e s te t t h io u n s a r t e t c „ o r m wa ns r e d i s in g e i d v whatever to look to state that he had no desire made these few observations on the lie speech was of the Right Honourable Gentleman,anxious back upon what had passed within the last few e . He weeks in Ireland, or to speak unfavourably of aware earceon duet of her M a j es ty's Governm of the difficulties by w hi c h they were surrounded. thought, moreover, that the L o rd-Lieutenant and the rest o f th e G overnmen t were entitled to the greatest praise for having taken upon themselves to carry out pro d uc ti ve w orks 1n st , e tn al ni o -r f at t , ,e A se ot. tha e t ol w , e i,2 re L,ri i n n g e i : i p w er d at i i n e i m onit u in e s de n r ni t t h n e t, ; quent upon tia,17..• duties, and the frnrl3 placed at tit' eli;Tesei, cc;;,i l 4::‘;_ci lhar ci Works vitae also entitled to the thanks of the country for the efficient MORNIN 0-, FEBRUARY 3, 1847 manner in which they bad discharged their duties. In other departments he thought there might be more vigour. lie meant the Commissariat department ; but, alter looking at the correspondence that had been laid before the House, there had been a great desire to execute all that it was in their power to do. He was bound, however, to say that the diffi culties of Ireland were still before the House. He was anxious that every just consideration should be given to the present great calamity—(Hear)— and to consider of the means to be taken to alleviate the distress of the people, and, as far as possible, to prevent a recurrence of such calamities in future. Lie was anxious to adduce a few facts illustra.ive of some of the peculiarities of the condition of Ireland which appeared to him to be very essential to a fair consideration of the whole question. It was not his intention to enter into any details, but he would confine himself to the broad and striking features of the case. Ile first wished to take the case of the occupiers. They had heard a good deal on that subject lately. The Hon, and Learned tGioei tene,aittnii.todiic;in(tih;itittiiticauiotettini,l,edupuireathuiree Member for Ba+h, in his speech last night, drew a fear ful lecture of the state of the occupiers of Ireland. He (M . r. Hamilton) wished he could state that in his overdrawn. He an n d 'as Le o a v r sug gest certain means of remedying these evil,. Gentleman ne hthi It was impossible that the Honourable and Learned hparevveafiulilillyg• amongstrettlised t t h h e at e e n l ir s , i T i s l e r x e. - land, and the number of those persons so affected. Evi dence was given before the Land Commission, of which he (Mr. Hamilton) was a Member—and that with The census of 1841 gave some startling results on this subject. The census of 1841 had given to the House a return of the number of farms above one acre. There were 685,000 in round numbers, and of these no less than 560,000, or nearly 80 per cent. wsre under 15 acres, and a considerable proportion of that total being under ten and five acres. If any gentleman in England were asked what he would consider the position of a farmer having so small a quantity of land as fire, ten, or fifteen acres, of course the answer would be that it was impossible any man having so small a quantity of land could employ himself properly in the cultivation of it, and that he ought to be turned into an independent labourer, and put upon mosey wages. Yet here they had five out or six farms in Ireland occupied by persons of that description, these occupiers being dependent entirely on the preduce of these miserable portions of land for subsistence, and being occupied in the cultivation of this land, without the assistance of manufactures or other means of sustaining themselves. The next means (a better means of judging of the real condition of the great body of the people in Ireland), was to be found in the census. The Census Commissioners made a return and classification of the houses of different descriptions in the whole of Ireland, and they divided them into four classes. The fourth class was a mere hut, the walls and floors being of mud, consisting of only one room, with no window. The third chas was better than this, it was also of mud, consisting of more rooms than one, and having windows. The other two were the farm houses, and the houses of the gentry and clergy, and of the 4th class there were no less than 1,075,000 in Ireland. The Hon. Member then read a number of statistics from the late census of Ireland, as published, with the object of showing how severely the famine must have been felt in Ireland. He stated that in the county of Mayo there were only 217 gentlemen's houses, while there were 63,483 of the third class. Such was the state of Ireland with regard to the hold ings of land ; there was no labouring population as in England, paid by large capitalist farmers, but a popula lion, such as he had described, with very small holding; and there was not throughout the extent of the coun try more than ono per cent. of gentlemen rimong them. With regard to the landlords, he begged to ob • serve that, in consequence of the system of cenaere which prevailed there, it was with the greatest difficulty that any improvement could be effected in the condition of the people. Those who knew Ireland were aware of those difficulties. Landed gentry, he had just stated, did not comprise more than one per cent. 01 the population. Now that raised the question of absenteeism. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who stated last night that some of those who were ab• sentee proprietors were among the best latellords of Ire land; but they were the exceptions, not -the rule. He was bound to say that the largest pro prietors did their duty well to their tenantry, but that could not be said of the smaller class of proprietors who comprised the great bulk of the absentee landlords. The large proprietors kept on their property au agent, who to some extent discharged the duties of the proprietor himself ; but he was afraid that this could not be said of the great ma jority of the smaller class of absentee land lords. At any rate, there was no one who could deny that absenteeism was attended with the greatest evils, and had the most injurious effects on the comforts and cendieion of the people—(Hear, hear)—and he sin cerely believed that it contributed very mate rially to aggravate the misery caused by the calamity under which the Irish people were at present labouring. There was another evil which was severely felt in Ireland, and that was the case of the absence of agents. There were a number of agents engaged ill the man. tegument of estates, who resided elsee here, and who only visited those estates once a year. Then with respect to income. A member last night had stated that the whole income of Ireland was about 3,000,000/ a year ; but he (Mr. Hamilton) bad found from the report of the state of the estates in Ireland that the amount of income assessed in lreland was over 6,000,000/., a matter which was well worthy of the con• sideration of the House. He found that out of the property that was assessed in Ireland, not less than 702,000/. were under the charge of the Court of Chan cery and the Court of Exchequer, and that during the custody of this money, the arrears had increased from 300,4861. to upwards of 400,0001., and that the of 300,0001 amount now actually held was upwards , This showed what was the condition of was another a grey portion of the property in Ireland. Then theres another evil arising fro m the state of the law of mort gage, an alteration o f w hi c h would enable unen cumbered proprietors t o g et rid of their which the m estates. In England, if a mortgage! were fereclosed, it was customary to sell that portion onort . gage was impo s ed i n or d er to satisfy the demand The practice in Ireland was very different; the practice almost universally prevailed that when a proprietor borrowed money, he b orrowe d it on a bond and judgment. This judg ment ( w hi c h wa s scarcely known in this country) ov erro d e a ll port i ons o f bi s property, extending over every township, and it was almost impossible to get rid of the money borrowed during the operation of the judgment. Again, with re ference to the existence of the class known as middlemen, every body would feel that the operation of this with the previous cause had been prej u di c i a l to the i nterests ot Ireland. These were matter s t h at i nvo l ved the con di t i on an d prospects e of eve r y c l ass. The 'H ono urable and Learned r Gentleman stated t h e other nhtthatNow that evert man in Ireland was out of h i s proper position. to do ask whether the Legislature had anything himseis; with it ?—(tlvar, hear, and cheers.) For 'ntsnance sta•ernent was, to a certain extent, true ; but . he might he was a strong advocate for the bad been to his own mind, that the effect of that union Ireland to draw away the landed aristocracy from main cause of the union, but he could not conceal the truth from this country, and that had Gen tlemanlionposition, a position which the • and Learned to fill fur then' why the class had arisen which hee o n ccu a pied characterised as one improper in very strolie The lion. and Learned Gentleman had, in _ d to the col language, expressed his opinion with ree of their pro pability of landlords in the managementathat some land parties. lie was not prepared to dae' of great e rrors lords, in times gone by, had been guilty ..._.. the last but %Imp"' ' a middle in the management of the it estates ; veinent had take', twenty or thirty years a marked imp a nimated with gentry in that country. They were now eiomi,e, and a a spirit of foresight, with a desire hadto become prevalen, place in the habits, opinion, and eourdaut desire to improve their estates if the remark of the among them during that period. peculiarly to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman applied , know for what he should like to existing state of things, of the tended blame? The Hon. and Learned Gentleman dep the landlords of Ireland so mr e u c a t e d the small holdings should had been divided. He shou i nto which that country like to know whether the landlords had been to blame? " was for the clearing or the it was that the Hon. and Learneeil to e entleman considered non clearing of estates thatHe had heard much of the --(Hear, hear.)the clearing system had given rise. of things in behead, he should like of the existing state the English Legislature had made. to know how often f its hhinlahndlords were taunted with being the cause political contests—how often had made Ireland serve their own purposes, English parties h „ e parties neglected her? When and how often had t useful for their purposes, vast numbers she ceased to be bad been laid upon the table of the House leThLeorpdr,inhteipa(lMor.b objection he of blue books e l[ Vv re ihi la en n t est i ons and warnings upon the sub ject. teeming andwith.a.ogF` now they were reaping the fruits of of Ireland, those warnings. With regard to the not attending 0 d olr t wi h s e arena o o f t he Nob considering that they bound to state, that_.. ey were founded ' le of introducing capital into Ireland, they on the principle had his concurrence. was had ised out•door relief to measures was to the propt able-bodied apprehended many s • labourers, as he great care • was taken in its adminis arise from it, unless laTiatem which had been given last tration. The explanation night by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of however, done m uc h the Exchequer, had, strong objection he previously entertained. He would have liked that the present measures had been accom panied by a qualified system of emigration, so as to this country who had friends enable parties in and America, but who had not funds to go out, to he sent to those friends , lie th could not impres s t oo strongly on the House the fact at the improvem e nt 01 Ireleuei was to be effected, not by great measures, but by a series of small measures. He believed that these small measures, ao e ever high-sounding might be the great - measures, were the real paaaecea for the evils of Ireland. He very much approved of a commission of legal men of both countries to consider how far the law of Ireland might be assimilated to that of England. He was glad to hear from the Chancellor of the Exchequer last night, that it was the intention of Government to give loans to small farmers, which he considered was calculated to relieve the labourers. There was only one other topic to which he wished to advert. The Hon. Member for Montrose had alluded to a meet ing of the landlords of Ireland in Dublin, whosb object, it was stated, was to secure as much for themselves as possible, notwithstanding the distress of the people. He had only to refer the lion. G ent l eman to the resolution passed ;it that meeting, and Ise would It-ave it to the candour of the yon. Measlier to any whether the w, re actualcAl St , tt'iy by s ,i,,,i rc of ~..4 tlll ~ all they could for themselves. lie would state, i n reply to the Honourable Member for Oxford, that these resolutions showed that they were fully alive to the amount of danger that existed in the country. The landlords of Ireland were united, without reference to political faction or creed, for the good of their country. They were united not to destro3 but to preserve. It was to prevent the horrors of social revolution that they were united. Not to involve the country in anarchy and confusion, but to raise the condition of the people, and to save all classes—(he used the words of the rear). lution on which their union was formed)—to raise the social condition of the people and to save all classes from the ruin with which they were at present menaced. He could assure his Hon. Friend that that union amongst the Irish gentlemen on this subject was but a faint re flection of the unity of purpose and harmony of feeling existing among all classes in Ireland on the pre sent occasion. This heavy visitation—this great calamity this visitation of Providence had softened men's hearts, and called forth hosier and better impulses. It was de lightful to see on the relief committees men whom early prejudices—whom strong prepossessions—and whom, perhaps, the influence of stern principles had hitherto kept sundered from each other ; it was delightful to to see them emulating each other in endeavouring to al leviate the want of their fellow creatures.—(Cheers.) It was delightful to see prejudice gradually dissipating— those prepossessions gradually disappearing—and a foun dation laid for friendship, and harmony, and good feel, ing, among the different classes of the community, which he trusted would long survive the unhappy occasion which had given rise to them. The Right Hon. Gentle man the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Right Hun. Gentlem a n, th e S ecretary for Ireland, had, on a previous occasion said, that co-operation among the Irish was essential for the successful carrying out of any measures which might be derived, or of any laws that might be made by this Parliament for the improvement of the condition of Ireland. He could agree with senti ments so expressed, and he believed that co-operation, energy, and activity, among the people of Ireland them selves ; and, above all, a kind co-operation on this subject by parties who had kept too much asunder, were essentially necessary for the proper carrying out of any measure, however well contrived, by any Government in this country. On the part of the United Irishmen he thought he could tender their zea lous co operation, for they were anxious to support any measure, let it come from whht quarter it might, which they considered calculated to improve the social condi tion of that country. Me was sure, at all events, that all measures would be considered irrespective of any party consideration ; and he would say for himself, that he most unfeignedly trusted to congratulate her Ma jesty's Government on an) measure they might propose, and which would be doubtless sanctioned by the Legis lature. and which should be, in his opinion, calculated to relieve the present distress, and contribute to promote , the improvement of Ireland.—(Cheers,) Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL said it was not his intention to have occupied the time of the House long during this debate, simply for this reason—that while they were delaying the pro gress of this and other measures the people of Ireland were Perishing from hunger.—(Hear, hear.) Even the utmost haste that the House could make in passing this measure would not save the lives of those who were at that period perishing.— (Cheers.) It was, therefore, incumbent on the House to enable her Majesty's Ministers to carry into execution those measures which they had brought forward on their own re sponsibility, which they, on the fullest consideration, believed would prevent the people from being swept from the land by the calamity with which it had been visited, with the least possible delay. During the debate two or three character istics had come strongly out, to which he proposed to devote a few remarks. In the first place, he begged to bear testimony: and his thankful testimony, to the commiseration which the House had evinced for the distresses of Ireland —(Hear, bear)—to the great readiness evinced by Hon. Members on both sides of the House to adopt the strongest measures that might appear necessary to afford relief to Ireland. The next characteristic was—he was sorry to say —a cegree of ignorance, on the part of the House, of the social condition of Ireland ; which, after having occupied a seat for fifteen years in that House, he was nor prepared to find. This ignorance pressed more strongly upon him than ever the conviction, which he had always,—that a Parliament resident and sitting in a country was the only competent body to take care of - the interests. of that country, and what was beneficial to its inhabitants. Then attacks had been made on the landlords of Ireland. One Gentleman had rendered him self very prominent in this respect An ything, however, com ing from him h a d ver y lit t l e weight in that house, and still less weight in I re l an d. H e spo k e o f the onourable Memb2r for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) who seem , d to take pleasure when almost every other Member in tha House was anxious to avoid every topic of an irritating nature, to banish all preju dices, and when nothin..; bat considerations of humanity bad any influence over them ; in making malignant attacks, in raising ill-feeling, end preventing a full and fair consideration of the important measures before the House. The Honourable Member kept up a series of incessant attacks upon the Catholic priesthood, which at the present period was, of all times, the most unjust, seeing that they were sacrificing their lives in attending to the destitute and afflicted. They, however, needed not his vindication any more than they heeded his at tacks. The Honourable Member had also attacked the people of Ireland. He said, " that they came to the House in an abject condition to beg." He (Mr. J. O'Con sell) denied the assertion. 'they did not deserve such se aspersion upon their character. The Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, had justly spoken of the heroic for titude of the people under their sufferings. And these were the people who had been used by the Hon. Member for Bath as the target of his foul aspersions. The Hen. Member had also attacked the landlords of Ireland, he was not there to vin dicate them, or to say that they had not done wrong, if they had, however, done so, the House was much to blame for their conduct in consequence of the course of Legislation they had pursued, in putting temptations in the way of those who were unable to resist them.—( Hear, hear.) Indeed there was no parallel to the distress which at present existed in Ireland. But considering the calamities which had come upon them, considering the short time that there has bein to - look out for proper measures of relief, he considered that the landlords of Ireland generally acted their part fully as well as the poor had borne their sufferings.—(Hear, hear.) He was also bound to bear his testimony, to that of the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin, to that most delightful unanimity which has appeared in Ireland. They had all agreed to forget their miserable differences ; and he had been surprised and gratified beyond measure to see gentlemen whom had been sundered by party dissensions meeting each other with the utmost cordiality, the only contest between them being who would best show their anxiety to relieve the people. He was still further bound to observe, and glad to remark, that between the clergymen of the different denominations, and there were chairman, lartz therethe com mittee of which he had the honour to be and the strong es t ex isted the most cordial union of brotherhood , efforts to outdo each other in acts of . C m h i r se is r t y ia a n charity. The light The union was amongst their gloom, and from which he augured much good. He hoped that it wou ld be permanent, and that from this day forth they might date the prosperity of Ireland, and that they would no longer pre sent the appearance of a divided nation, but of one whi c h wo uld hold together and work together. He had been be trayed into a greater length than usual, but he wished to say a few words upon the measure before the House. He sea bound to say that he considered that the G overnment committedtted a mistake in. not endeavouring to supply food—he did not mean to supply food to a whole nation, but had the soup plan even been put into operation a far different result would have happened. He was fully aware of the inconvenience, as well as the ex pense which would attend Government interferenc e , with r egard to the supply of food, and a l so t h at markets would ' rise if Government went into the market as a purchaser. He had no hesitation, however, in saying that they ought to have held eut hopes to the n.erchant that he would sustain no loss by the supplies he brought. He thought that the first loss would have been the best. He believed that if food had been supplied in the first instance the labourers of the country would not have been withurawn from their ordinary occupations to take employment upon the public works. —(Hear, hear.) He did not, however, imagine that any other steps could be taken lest August than what were taken by the Government, but he was of opinion that the suspension of the 4s. duty and the navigation-laws should have been proposed sooner.—( Hear, hear.) He formed great hopes of the great advantage which would attend the esta blishment of soup kitchens, and he begged the House not to lose a moment in establishing these relief committevs, for the people were dying, not by thousands, but by hundreds of thousands. He did not approve of their system of poor-laws, but under the present circumstances of the country, he would not oppose the measure. The capital of the country and the property of the country would he destrayed, still he would no more opposed that mea sure than it he were on beard a sinking ship he should oppose the construction of a raft out of the pleas of the ship, It was' necessary to adopt any measure to meet the present state of Ireland, and he readily grasped like a drowning man at the pro posed measure, and cordially withdrew any opposition that he would otherwise have been prepared to offer to the measure. There was a general complaint of e want of comprehensiveness of the measures of her Majesty's Government. The great question of the repeat of the union was eon &tiered, however it might be treated in the House, as the panacea fir all the evils that affected the country. That subject would one day be brought most powerfully under the consideration of the House. He begged, in conclusion, to offer his tribute of gratitude to the admirable speech of the Hon Member for the University of Oublin. He would apologise for having, even by the small time which he had occupied by the delivery of his speech, prevented the passing of the measures introduced by the Government, and hoped that the further discussion of the measures would be conducted in a kind and friendly spirit. Lord CASTLEREAGH would tender his most cordial thanks to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government for the measures which he had introduced, in order to meet the alarming state of the distress under which the people of Ire land were suffering. He cordially approved tif the measure to sanction the proceedings which had taken place under the Trea• sury Minute. To the Lord Lieutenant of the country the greatest praise was due for his exertions to mitigate the exist ing distress. He thought the general accusation against the Irish landlords was entirely unfounded. The House ought to know who those landlords were who were alluded to. There was one point in the Government measures which did not seem to give so much satisfaction to the House as some other parts of the scheme, and one or two of which he was sorry to hear the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that he . to th did not e entertain very sanguine expectations (he grant of a million of moneyforthheigrhelcyl desirable.amat imlof t ‘ h V e i With t6 lands). He thought the measure re spect to the absentee l an dlords,lie would which onwlyiesayprthpaetshede would be the first person to oppose _ any scheme to levy a tax upon that clue (Hear, hear.) The employ ment of the people upon publicewohrr thatkshada just system e been attended wit with very serious results, and he t out door relief to the able-bodied class. —( Hear, patsips, a paupers was the asdesirable. The Hon. CECIL LAWLESS, representative of one of the largest and most importantcon e s s t s i a Te t n o cies, overcomebegged t h t o say, notwithstanding this was h i s first e timidity of addressing the House , that all might e h m a in easures which were now proposed , however goodthey themselves, were proposed at least six mon t hs too late. Ireland fr h e a re d now place in the scale of nations, arrived at a crisis, and she must either be swept or become great, glorious, and free in her self, and with her rise or fall this country was moat intimately bound up. He ga ve the Hon. Member b f t o h r e ß d at i h d f n u o l t l credit for a knowledge of . e think his views e bstract speculations, atnadtenooftldrieelatantded by that feeling of sympathy ; they were most un - E galtsh athy for the suffering of Ireland which they should be. __ Mr. GREGORY was not one of thosepsrsosnnset to see thatwhowereso wrapt ep in the science oflv the Government had acted politicalunwise economy a in abiding by the pledge which they . had given at the close of the last session not to in interfere with t h e o perations of trade. lb ever there was a time when the strict maxim, of political economy should be set aside, it w as when distress was so prevalent over the whole of Ireland. They had by this conduct given the greatest encouragement to the merchants and speculators in Ireland. es—s• a He heard with great pleasure the speech of the Noble Lord i charging his duties.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that the the Member for Lynn, and that of the other Noble Lord, who I landlords of Ireland were beggars, but he denied that state headed that party in the ether House, but he did trot agree ment. With the assistance of Government, it would be found with his (Lord George Bentinck's) sentiments with regard 1 that the landlords of Ire'and were quite ready to do their to the speculations. He agreed with him, however, that they j duty ; but of this subject h e s h ou ld be prepared should not allow th e peop l e of Ireland to starve. He regretted I to speak when the proper time arrived for doing so. He he was not in the House the other night, when the Chancellor I would no longer trouble the House except to entreat Govern of the Exch equer sa id that the depots in the we s t ern part of ; meet to encourage emieratien and coloiesetion, and to thank Ireland were opened to meet the wants of the people. The the people of this countrt and the Government for the anxiety Hon. Mem •er for Donegal, he was glad to see, had den t ed i th e y h a d evinced for allesiating thedistress ef Ireland. that state men t, an d h e himself, though living within seven- I Lord CLEMENTS theught the Irish Members bad been teen miles of Galway, could say, that until I hursday lest, not unjustly blamed for the failure of the Public Weeks Act, be a single pound of provisions was given out from the cause it was not likely that they could be in their places when stores in that locality.—( Hear, hear.) In proof of their services were required in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) At this the Honourable Gentleman read a letter from Galway, all events he would net share any of ihe blame. His services to the effect that the depots had not yet been opened, and that were more useful in Ireland at the time the Bill was passed than the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made a misstatement on they would have been had he been in hielslaee in the House. that subject. When the people were dying, and when it was He admitted that the statement that Lreners had forsaken their found that they'were being demoralised by the means which the Government had c a rr i e d out , t h en i t was proposed to make I farms to labour on •he Government eorks, wes correct; but they : were to blame in this respect, as they hod held out inducements the changes which were now contemplated. He could make i for them to leave their legitimate meads of subsistence. The every allowance for the difficulties of Government, but far- wages were, first, 2d. a day less than the usual rate, but the seeing and sagacious statesmen would have adopted a very Government yielded to the popular - clamour, sad in different course. The great evil of the labour -rate Act was its I creased the rate of payment to that demanded— diversion of labour from its ordinary channels, and of holding 1 -( Herr, hear)- and now they come . fere and and charged out the prospect that the produce of 184Swould be inferior to ; the country gentlemen with . being deficient in firmness, that of 1847. The Honourable Member, alter readin g the i and with having given relief in those who were not fit reci prophecies of Lord Monteaele and the Duke of Grafton, : pients. The Government officers had not carried out the with regard to the Labour-rate Act, said that these prophecies r measures in a proper manner, as in many instances they had were carried out, and thought the Government pretended to i seught the advice of the resident proprietors. Captain L a y ar d adhere to the principles of political econo m y. I n hi s op i nion, was app o i n e e d i n the district in which he lived (in Leitrim), their proceedings showed a departure from them, which he 1 but he nev. r coirsulted him ( Lord Cl, merits). He therefore could not reconcile with their professions Why, he would , blamed the Government for not havirg soiieht the advice of ask, did not they propose the contemplated measu res soo ner , ! th ose w h o were competent by their long connexion with the when their advantage would h a ve had muc h more efficiency ? r country to testify to the state of the populace and the proper Before he sat down, he gave the Noble Lord credit for good ; mode to set about dispensie g relief to them. The' em intentions, but be thought that he should have brought for- I oloyment of farmers ant others oho had no &aim to be em. ward some • measure for carrying out a system of railways. 1 ployed on the Government works might have lirs'el p•evented in But as his Noble Friend the Member f or Ly nn i nten d e d to this way, by the dis m i ssa l of th ci eck (lei ks, whi rever such a bring in a measure on this subject, he would not allude to it cl ass o f persons were emplo3ed. fa , cau-e th ey h a d amp l e oppor - ' further at present. He was somewhat surprises.,i tunnies of kno w i ng the preition e n d cen d r o en of those who also, that the Noble Lord did not prol.ose to I were engaged. When he became r member of the relief corn establish agricultural schools. A measure of this kind would ! mittee ire Leitrim, he considered that the 4/, tenant test was produce incalculable good, and, instead of advancing one 1 the proper one, as parties so rateet were paupers, who were million to reclaim the waste lands, it would be expended on I unable to pay rates, and who wore, therefore, fit subjects for the establishment of these schools—the benefit to the people of relief. From hi s exper i ence, h e found that this was I Ireland would be much greater. The great pr i nc i p l e which a fair pivot to turn. But alarm the lists had ever, Legislature should adopt, with regard to Ireland, should I been made out from the rate-backs in this way, be to lessen the amount of responsibility with regard to the Government celled upon them to mi=ke it out accord the measures ; and he did not think the measures of the Noble ing to another plan; thus confusion had been created, and Lord sufficiently stringent to carry out that principle. even up to that time no efficient list Lad been made out. He would not allude then to the poor-law, but with regard to Many farmers who only rented four or five acres were not only emigration he had no very sanguine hopes of the success of that above want, but in a condition to assist their poorer neigh plan of the Noble Lord. Before he sat down he begged to say hours. Some had six head of cattle, one or two of which they one word for the position of the landlords of Ireland. The re- had, perhaps, been compelled to part with, owing to the want sponsibility of all the social evils of Ireland had been cast upon of turnips. It was, therefore, unfair for those persons who the landlords, and upon whom the slightest punishment that possessed such a small number of acres, from which, by their should be inflicted was confiscation was contended. Atter all, industry, they del ived a good living, to be called upon to contri the same imputation might be cast on the landlords of'Scotland. bute towards the support. of thine who held more land, but who What was it that prevented the poplation of this country were less industrious. Therefore, he said the Government from being dependant upon potatoes, and enduring the same were not acting a benefieent part towards Ireland by giving calamity as that which afflicted Ireland; but the existence of relief indiscriminately, and not protecting the industrious from manufactories, as well the children as the parents of production. supporting the idle, some of whom held twenty acres, into The early birth of manufactures had been early crushed in which they had never put a spade, yet they were now receiving Ireland. Let them regard the north of Ireland. At first the relief as destitute persons. They let the land in con evils of Ireland were ascribed to the idleness of the lower acre, and lived out of the proceede; but they continued in in classes, then to the injurious influence of the middlemen, and dolence and paid neither rates nor taxes ; in tact, the only lastly it was thrown upon the landlords. It should, however, thing they would do was to labour at the public works, and to be recollected that the landlords of Ireland were, under the receive the pub:ic money. It was incumbent upon the Govern pressure of circumstances, that could not affect the landlords of ment to put a stop to such a pernicious system as this. this country, and from which he trusted they would be ever In many parts of Leitrim the people had neglected to collect exempted. The true means of elevating the people of Ireland, manure, so that the land could not be expected to produce would be to give to every man in that country an outlet for his crops, and therefore deficient harvests would continue so long exertion and fair protection for the same. as they neglected the proper cultivation of the land. The Sir H. W. BARRON was glad to see such Gentlemen as " rundale ' system was equally open to objection, and ought the Hon. Member who last addressed the House come forward to be grappled with at once. Even if the harvests were pro and express himself in the way he had done. He was a Gen- ficient there was not sufficient mechanical power in Ireland to tleman with whom he should feel no hesitation to act, and manufacture the grain. He had visited one mill in which he he was glad to see that the feuds which existed found thirty persons waiting to have their corn ground, and between parties in Ireland were fast dying away. so great was the tmantity brought that the mill had It was also gratifying to see that the Government of to be kept at work during the night. He re this country was acting upon a different principle to gretted that . the Gevernment were disposed to that upon which they had too long acted, and that they had encourage absenteeism, which had reduced the towns to a state abandoned altogether th e principl e of o &ride et inipera." of pauperism, as the money realised out of the soil was spent It had been asserted by that Hon. Gentleman that out of the eonntry, a great portion of it being expended here, England paid 12,000.000/. o f taxat i on more in proportion than so that Ireland, in a period of suffering, had a right Ireland. Now a more fallacious statement was never tittered to receive subsidies from this country; in fact, in that House. He took the trouble of examining the income she was almost in a po.i!ien to demand such aid. and expenditure of the United Kingdom, and he found that out He had to lay upon the tab es of the House petitions from the of 51,000,000/. Ireland bore a proportion of 44.V00,000/, formers of the county of Leitrim, complaining that every ten leaving only one half of the proportion stated by the pound freeholder was obliged to go and attend in his place Host. Member. Now, with respect to the amount of taxation as a juror on a summo ns fro m the sheriff. Now he'considered in Ireland, not more than three million pound s was spent in it was most unfair that these men shotild have to attend wlfile Ireland. With respect or what had been said about teens to the aloetirees were never even call e d upon. There wdk an- Ireland, nam e ly, t h at t h ey h ad never been repaid ; now, a , other point to which he would wish t o t i t er —it was to the con more mendacious assertion than that had never been made, duct of the ball,ffs and agents a n on estates. It was considered He need only refer te the tables awl documents a very hard thing of him ( Lord Clemente) when, with which Hon. Gentlemen were well acquainted, to prove in his capacity of a Magistrate. he declined to go the utter mistake of this assertion. It had, indeed, been into a great many c - uses ter the burning of land asserted that loans had been ' made . to the clergy, —which they were all a e ere was a very grave (Hence— which had never been repaid, but he would beg but he had heard that the money eid not go into Ihe landlord's to remind Hon. Gentlemen that these loans were not made at or the ag'ue's pocket, but into that of the bsillff, who, when the request of the I r i s h people, b u t merely so carry out the Ihe f , and that he eyelet no lot ger re c eive the fees upon these views and purposes of the Government of the day. Tlo-re I case, himself. but would have to return en account of them, never had been a loan paid to Ireland that. had not been repaid ' neve r troubled the Bench any more. He did say that the with usurious interest. Here, when money was lent to public time was wine when trie% Fhould oblige th e absereee landlords companies or private individuals, the rate of interest charged to look after their property, and that ihe thee was also come was 3 per cent., while that charted in Ireland was 5 per cent. when they sheuld enasavour to .form a home market How, then, was the statement of the Hon. Member for Beth a, it was lintels im, osetil,• that a country should be purely sustained in the assertion he made in the House the other aericultural without mee tine such reverses as i t e present . H e night, that th ere wos a cont i nua l d rain upon the people of liven in what tie be .ii-veil to be the vry Forest district in Ire- England for the support of the people of Ireland? land, here he had be, n tithing day and night to benefit the In the reign of George 111., you legislaJed, and made the Irish condition if the peer —. Hear, hear ) He had received a let- Parliament to meet _in England. Was there ever such a ter from his steward no later than on List Wednesday, which mockery of legislation as .this? They were now suffering the intermeed him that, in one day. no fewer than 175 persona results of the tyr a nny of an English Parliament legislating for came to his farm-y ant to purchase turnips, many Ireland; and it was not until the American war reduced them 'of them- coming a great distance to obtain even to the lowest extremity that any alteration had been made. -so small a quantity as too stones, and none He would grant, that within the last thirty or forty years a above a hundred weight, and then sad that when the crop wiser policy had been pursued. In the words of the Hon. was exhausted, they Mil net know where to go to obtain Member for Bath, the; had reduced the Irish people to the food. lie was a little surprised at the answer which had been lowest state of degradation, and on them be the shame of their - given by the Hon. M. tuber for Donegal. with respect to the fault. They talked of Irish ignorance—who made them igno- depots, along the western coast, he was happy, however, to rant? Why, had they not enacted that it should be a felony hear, that they were about to put these depots into operation. for any Roman Catholic to keep a school in Ireland? and on He ebould tell the Government that it would be most them be the shame of the results. They had made the people important tro . form inland d epo t s . Th ere was anot h er po i nt what they were, and was it aston i s hi ng t h at they saw the bitter to which he woult wish to draw attention; the greater portion fruits rising around them. They had made the Irish people of the people resident in the eistriet from which he came, what they were, and this was the reason why the power of mainly depended on the sale of their pigs. On January the Sax.in and English legislation was hateful to Ireland. He re- 14th, he was informed by a person on whom he placed implicit gretted this, for the English people were a great, a generous, confidence, arid who was in the habit of spending from fourteen and a charitable people. There was another evil. It was hundred to fifteen hundred pounds on pigs alone, on January made a charge against the people of Ireland that the gifts of 14th he was not able to purchase one, and in the market of the English Parliament had been misapplied, and that the money that district to which he had alluded the lair was generally well which had been sent over for the public works had been mis- attended, but last month there were only nine pigs applied for the purchase of fire-arms ; and representations had in the whole fair. Indeed, so defective had the supplies front been made to him as a magistrate, that fire-arms bad been pur- Ireland become, that the merchants and manufacturers were chased for purposes of violence. But what was the case? Why, obliged to use American beef, although they had a strong on inquiry, he found that not a single &clock had been pur- disinclination to its use. In fact, the country—the land chased but for the sake of defence, and that the only itself—bad become greatly impoverished. This truth purchases had been made far the defence of pro- was forced upon him when he was walking over the perty ; and at a meeting held at Carberry, where country to see where public works should be this subject was fully considered, a resolution was come commenced, he chanced to go to a townland, not upon his to, in which he most cordially concurred, that not a single noble parent's estate, where the people told him that they had stand of arms had been purchased in the county of Cork, and been accustomed to pay three or four rounds an acre, and for especially in the n e i g hb our h ood of Skibbereen, except for the which he himself would have given that price at a form er ' time, purpose which he had just stated. It was found that only but for which he would bee vet sorry to give ten shillings an fifteen guns and two pistols had been sold in that neighbour- acre now. He wished the Government y would devise measures, hood. He was himself the chairman of two relief committees either to compel the laredholders to cultivate the land in his own county, and he deeply regretted that statements had themselves, or let somebody else do it.—(Hear, hear.) bean made by many Hon. Members of that House of the In his opinion, if there was to be any enactment to give out characters of the Irish people, for he could bear witness that door relief it was not necessary, unless they wished more no people could have borne this dreadful visitation of Provi- particularly, not utterly to ruin Ireland, but this country also. deuce better than the Irish people.—( Hear.) Great complaints He said, and said most.sulemnly, that there was no life on earth had been made of the money appropriated by this country for to him more painful than living among the unfortunate popu the relief of the distress in Ireland. Why, in the existence of !anon of Ireland. He had, since he had left his duties in the such a calamity as this, was no relief to be granted? What did House, been amongst them almost without intermission. He they do in the case of an insignificant colony of this country— had, during the last ten years, done all that could be done by the case of Quebec, when an awful calamity befel that city? a man to endeavour to assist these poor people.—( Hear, hear.) They had at once granted 20,00/. to the inhabitants of Quebec, He confessed that he was disc. uragcd and heart broken at and when a still more distressing calamity befel a more insiga seeing, after so many }ears of toil and labour, such small te e St. John's, Newfoundland—they had granted 30,0001. without tu take into consideration, as he was sure he had every reason hesitation. Was it too much then to grant 4,000,000/. or to hope that they would do, from the kind manner in which 5,000.000/. for the relief of the distress of Ireland, where up- the debate had hitherto been conducted— the state of wards of two millions of people were suffering the extremity the country—anti to avoid making - any further false steps, of destitution. In such a case s this they ought to consider Let them determine what should be the pivot on which the ad- Cork as Bristol, and Waterford as York. They did cot come ministratiou ot that rebel should turn ; let them show the line to that- House for charity but for that relief to which the Irish of demarcation, or else they could nut expect any private or ' people were fully entitled. Then, as regarded the alteration public benefit either to the country or to individuals, and there - of the law of real property and the tenure of land, he quite wou d always be the same abuses and distress. agreed with the suggestions that had been put forward. With Mr. LA itO UCH Eki ft said tat his Noble Friend who had regard to the compensation to tenants f or th e improvement just resumed his sea had blame. very severely the conduct of which they had made on thei r holds, gs, and her Maje sly's Government with regard to the Labour-rate Act. he was very glad that the Govern men t lad taken There vain tat in the observations of hi- Noble Friend which this subject into their consideratio n , f or h e believ e d that gr ieved bins, and also that which. Le must conleess entirely re the tenants wete fully entitled to it. Then, with respect to moved hem his mord any weight or unpleasant feeling which the project for the reclam a ti on o f was t e N a a s , h e diffe re d with she or her argurneats ~I tee Noble Lid -gaoist. the Labour-rate the Hon. Member for Wyc om b e (Mr. B. Osborne), for he Burl and leer aiajestv's liorerninint might. have produced believed a wiser or a more prudent course could not have been ties noble Friend Mee told the House that there was no public adapted. He believed th a t th e m one y th us expended would wek execioed under ilus Bill -which, in hi s j u d gment, was not only be usef u l i n th e emp l oyme n t o f t h e p . asantry, b ut ii . a per maiient public WI. Ile (i‘.1,.. Labou c h e r e ) t h oug h t also in the attai n i ng a ' permanent b ene fi t f or I re l an d : Then. , a su ch an olis, a vatioleon a . ot. hardly lo he 'in the mouth of as respec'ed the adoption el' a poor-law for that -eountry. N. I, l e Friend, win), ihthielicect by a Gene of justice, had believed that it would be one of the greatest benefits for that ~, aaa to bear iestan a ny iii favour ot the measuresyvhich country. Ten years ago, he believed he had rood nearly atoll, '., ~ . I th. objee iel his censui `nit's He had heard the in the advocating of this measure; but 'late experience had r ,•, . , r , eller orn e sus prise, sir be believed that certainly shown the benefits that were likely to arise :rum its adoption, , a ~ a fleet- i nal n, re tribuied to this Hill and his loose and he was rejoiced to find that the Ministry , hail made it e . CO. -: n ,,,, .ii al.- wo: ii, eat cartel under him, had part of their system for the improveme nt of Ireland. o,a ‘ xa2gt r .ti-d by noiey teeirlienn n who had ad- He warned the Government 'hat unless they compelled ev‘ay .1. eased the House. lf,s 10-eio: F tend had stated that landlord to upport the poor on his own property the peor-law te e Chaneelior of tee Ex laq .i i hod pa- ea a sweeping censure would produce enormous mischief inst ea d of go o d, an: they o n the landlords ~ f Lela., :lei their conduet. He did not would be doing a great injustice upon a large portion of the elude rstatid his Righi h, n. le reini at ail ti , have used the ex landed interests of Ireland, Ther e was saarcely an estate, in pression, and ens exoressi 'II of that OeSeiii.tion he (.Mr. La bia own knowledge, that could not be properly improved by boiiehere) Was tore (Ma if be Lai diine so, he should by no the use of a little increased energy and exertion, while in his means have heel. prepared to coheur in ilia, statement. He own neighbourhood there was not an estate which east hero on: tag las , iii,,,, reotuence in Ire could not give employment. There was no subject of land, h a t, too inaey tipper., iaes of observing more vital importance than this, and he trusted Gov erreannt the conduct of the Iron ianalard.s, many al whom he saw would not loose sight of it. There was one subject more around bins at :hat ni.-e-eat. tic had remained amongst the he wished to touch upon—namely, railways. He trustee ~Irish during the last tour menths—months of the greatest Government would remember that the present emergencies of di s tr es s. Gentlemen of the greatest oistinceior im that country Ireland was an exception to the general rule. The people were the first in exertiug them-elves to alleviate it. Hew o a n s must be employed in this emergency, and he knew no more well acquainted with many instances of this popular spir i t legitimate way of doing so than by assisting great capitalists tl e part of the Irish in general before he was who had embarked large sums of money in ti.e railways of Ire- w ith the instances of the eeertien of priva te wthat the sub. land.—( Hear, hear.) He could not sit down without offer- the part of the gentry of Intend ; but2 d ie i en e e h Government in ing his heartfelt thanks to the charitable and humane people scriptions from many of them hhaed distressing circumstances in of England, who had so liberally come forward to its efforts for the public, u He er th t ou ht that admission was quite assist Ireland in her present di ffi culties. Such acts which they were placed. s truth bound him to say, that it charity y int e ed m as these would do more to conciliate the feelings consistent with his saying, e a ; :i iof the county which, in their efforts of the people of Ireland towards this country, than any acts was to certain ' s t odo Governmentin c o a r s e P a r I H i a. the part of himself and his constituents, most cordially thanked s pi r it w of that or the other H ouse of Parliament . He, therefore , o n t o meet h t i li ch e t p r e e g r m:e n d n t d: d ou . s li d t i h ffl e au g ti n e t s r , y c o o f up l l r e e d ia v i r id ith ge t n h e e ral g l e y n , general the people of this country for the high and charitable ern, There were, however, many exceptions, and some of the relief motives G overnment - was most materially indebted for assistance. which had induced them to come forward in the prese nt give e h itthereyMoajtogesitiyt gency and assist his unfortunate suffering countr y .—( Hear. ) Mr. LEFROY said, the Honourable en . . to say that these cases were of many 11. H. uncommon occur. ss - but heren ce, for extraordinary effects were not: in co e m n ri t i t i l tt e ee s s ul d v id or n t o w t ' he should be quite ready to discu ss , . to be expected from proper time, — tle ( m H a e n 'ar w .) ho that had just sat daWn, had introduced topics d. which at the did not mean ordinary persons • but e • , sucia services had been received from measures which had certain gentlemen, both distinguished and noble, and from many occasion, confine themselves to tlA rres. which, prevailed. p ersons for whom as must be permitted to say, that they should, on as a Member of the Government, he felt a been prepared for alleviating t .m' had d ing gratitude for the spirit and co-operation they of all other measures poor-law should have precedence the sufferings of the Irish a ff orded uring the last four months. He The Honourable Member who thu pro ' posed that the I ish must be ignorant of the extent o f rendered his thanks sincerely to the many noble and to delay distinguished held front positions Hon. w hoa ed for alleviating them; while the • measures that were prepar ed people, or he could not be so cruel as to attempt in the party always opposed to her Majesty's Government. He could not for et. Lord Farnha.m, and Lord Lauton, and Hon. Member for ISlontrose had urged nothing in favour of this delay, except that the country ought to be saved the expense others, who had n ot g hesitated to come forward to assist Govern- . of maintaining a Lord-Lieutenant. He cared not whether the Govern office were continued or not, but this he knew, that no Lord.- I ha ppy to see that spirit of moderation prevail. - merit in any measures proposed, forgetful of all party prejtt-. Lieutenant more deserved or commanded the confidence and dices. . 1 le was hich they might pass and devise measures with. esteem of the Irish people than the distinguished nobleman who at present filled the office. With respect to the observe- Theyhad hadalready great difficulties t o n u g t t ev w er ti b o el t ng w able to ex , ricate lre;and from the di ffi culties lions of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for d with, anti the more lie looked into the matter the which surrounded her. a Government had . proposed for alleviating the distress, Bath, who had entered his protest against every measure tha vr t ere th e ve H ry ono b u e r e a o te ing a n d a enie to e o e nten tremendous ' and overwhelming the di ffi culties be had yet propositions up p er ' s s ed pr t o o p Learned to decry the exertions which hadb een made, though he believed mart o ol overcome appealed.—( Hear, hear.) lie did not state this It tt le a m P they would be met and overcome by the energy and determined man entertaining republican principles, but exceedingly :tit of the Legislature.—(llear, hear.) In the course • unbecoming a gentleman who was a oqpmber of the British which s p rit the Government had already taken he had been sup. Senate.—( Hear, hear.) With regard fo the measures them- po rted-he was glad to say by Irishmen of all ranks and par. selves; he certainly did hope that they were calculated to make es—and whatever the present sufferings and distress might an important change in the condition of the people of Ireland. be, he was persuaded that out of the evil good would arise— In Committee he had no doubt many amendments would be Hear, ( near, he..r)—and that this would yet carry the country proposed, and he trusted Government would take ,_, through its press ,t, trials. But they would have an awful care to give them a favourable consideration. ' 1-le sireggle belle there. - ( Hear, liter ) A good deal of the was a de•ctded opponent to AY, - A k , ts. and Coercion discussiin of the lost two night had been occupied with dis- Bills, but h e must be ;_;!'wed t o ex ire-- a hope that Inramres. • . ;es about the spirit in whic h Ireland should be treated. wouldwou be take n to protect th e hint- ourking, industrious la- t.lueli had been said which he regretted, though at th e r against the ruffian, who would commit assassination same time he thought that the very great majorit/ upon him, out of revenge for his honestly attd faithfully dis- • r 111 i roeS ving I