The Sun. — London, England, 1822-04-30 00:00:00

the justice to Test satisfied. that no exertion would be spared to lessen those dreadful effects.—( Hear !) After a brief explanation from Sir E. O'BRIEN, the Order of the Day was read, and the House went into the Committee. AGRICULTURE.—REMISSION' OF TAXATION. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, in pursuance of a notice which he had given to the House, to call its further at tendon to the Report of the Agricultural Committee. Before entering into the particular measures which he should have .the honour to propose as growing immediately out of the •Report, he was sure he should very much disappoint the wishes of the House, if he did not first apply himself to a considera tion of the distress out of which the appointment of - the Com mittee had arisen. He should do so for the purpose of giving his own ideas upon that distress, the purpose of his Majesty's Ministers with regard to what had already been proposed, and information upon some further measures which they now in tended to propose for , its relief. It was now about ten weeks since he addressed the House upon the subject, and he was perfectly free to say, that if since that period he had met with any thing . which led hini to suppose that he had taken an in correct view of the state of the country upon that occasion, thete was nothing in his composition that would prevent him :con acknowledging his error. But as far as he could col hat the ideas which he entertained noon the first entering i. 710 the question—he did not mean in detail—but in the gene eal outline, he had every reason to believe, on reflection, .and experience, that they were substantially correct. His persuasion was., that the general state of the country, with :he exception of the. Agricultural interests, might be re /valet: as prosperous. The manufacturing and commercial branches continued to increase in their prosperity, as far as they possessed the means of judging. The state of the revenue, as far as they could rely upon that test, proved this to be the 404 e. It would be remembered that upon the last quarter there was an excess, compared with the same quarter in the preceding year, of between 4 and 500,0001. He was happy to : say, that in the last three weeks, since the quarter's accounts were made up, there had been a further increase over the same period in the last year of 283,001. ; and this, too, at a steady . rate of 90,0001. per week. He did not mean to press this as a. tonclusive.proof of the prosperity of the country, but it was uh- Aonbtedly a great criterion, and one which proved that the people wet?. not so Universally suffering as some wished them to believe. At the period to which he alluded, it would be recollected that he did then declare that the distress of one particular interest mainly arose from causes not within the reach or control of the legislature. That those causes were to, be found in the over-pro elizetion and consequent increased supply with which the mar kets were glutted, ni - td that until such supply should regulate itielf to the demand, 2.11 attempts to removing the evils must be -futile and vain. The mode of relief which was held out by some at that time held now been exposed as perfectly fallacious; and this upon the highest authorities. He need not particularly al lude to the Hon. Member for Portarlington, wnose pamphlet. every one must have read, and whose authority every one would be ready to acknowledge.—(Hear.)—lt was clearly proved, .os he rad all along contended, that the reduction of taxation -would only give relief, through the consumer, to all other in ••erests as well as that of agriculture, and that such a measure „e' relief would not be a remedy for the disease by striking at .-once at its root, but a inere palliative which could be attended with no permanent beneficial results. He believed that this had now become intelligible to the whole country, and that the eeonviction had been carried home to the farmers themselves, that even if the whole taxation of the country were remitted, - it would not relieve the distress which had arisen from visita -ticns of a higher nature. At the same time when he urged this evienr,nhe,did say that it was the duty of the House to look at the gust:ion in all its bearingse and if they could not do any -thing which would completely remove the distress, that they should at least endeavour to ascertain what assistance could be rendered collaterally to the efforts of this great nation of capital and enterprise. He did, at Ole same time call the at-. .tent.,ionpf the House to measures zegarding the circulation, the • commerce and the credit of the country, and he would now re ;pet ; the views of Government upon those subjects. Ile would rage the last, namely, that of advances of capital, first, and see 'low far they may be made available to alleviate the evils which -pressed upon the country. He stated upon the former oc .easion why it was not possible to adopt any system of ad vances upon personal security. Ile did say how such advances might have been made upon parish rates, and that subject had b -en kept open for consideration. The difficulties, however, Avllich would have accompanied the plan had been found to : preponderate, and Government had in consequence relinquish cd Another method .of relief had also been discussed in the Committee and recommended by the Report, namely, that afvancing capital upon the security of British corn stored ie Warehouses. When this was first proposed, he had consi • • • •. :red it as one fleet, was to be avoided, but that particular .eircumstances might call for its application. Ile thought it -right to epprize the House, that in the Committee he did -not v.r.,tc upon this proposition, and that he originated ano tZer for advancing the sum upon Exchequer Bills, which was not adopted by the Committee. In deference to the .opinion of the Committee, and to what he understood to be the k. - :n641 wish of the farmers, he had thought it fit to recom mend this measure to the House. He had been particularly aefletenced, la adopting that course, by the information that the tamers expected considerable relief from it. He must here -4:rbseree, that it' he thought this measure to be one which was -saikulated to raise the price of corn, he would not have adopted 'it. Bait it could not be properly described as having that in :tendon or tendency. Its effect would be to stop, and remove that inundation of corn which had (or some time been coming In upon the market, and to place the buyer and the sel ler in their just situations in relation to each other. The' ,consequence, therefore, was not to raise the price of earn, 'ut to facilitate the distribution of the supply arising from the produce of the year, and to restore the market to its natural -reed jut state. Neither,could this measure be considered as a ettreet interference of the Government with the openness of 41;e, market, because persons would be acting upon it entirely as rnetter of choice. In short, the object was to give the mar ket a sound and natural operation, and not an artificial one.— As there was a strong feeling among the farmers in favour of this plan, he had become anxious for its adoption, because they -would otherwise have believed that it might have produced a : greater share of relief than could in reality result from it.— "rhis'worild occupy.l,ooo,oool. of capital. There was another -operation towirtelt he would next call the attention of the Iloese. And if the Honourable Baronet opposite, who had that sight made a statement to the House, had waited a little eager, hewould have found that the subject of it had not es caped the attentionaef Government. It was intended to pro -pose to Parliamert, that to enable the Lord Lieutenant to • erfl:Jra relief to the distressed districts; a vote of credit should be granted similar to that of 1817, to place funds at his Lord sniVe disposal for the relief of those objects who most urgently a..-alied for charity. To this purpose another million of capital .r(ittl.o be devoted, to be advanced upon public works, so that great improvements would thereby be carried on, to the great h.lerat and advantage of the public. It must likewise be ob- .s(,:w.s.i that this 2000,0001. would get into, and a.ssist the gene -"at circulation of the country. Ile before submitted to the ottac that the Government had negociated with the Bank for Ake &vance of 4,000,0001. upon Exchequer Bills, at the mode 7rate-izterest of three per cent. He then stated that the object of the application of that 4,000,0001. was to benefit the country pcneral, and not to confer local advantages. Ile trusted •that the advance of these sums would find its way into the ,dirninution of the loan•upon the Sinking Fund, as well as to 'the assistance of .the circulation and commerce of the country. the stun they had negociated for with•the Bank would be Applied to the reli - ef of.the - country as follows : 1,000,0001. for •assistiig the markets by the stowing of corn; 1,000,0001. for rt.::•.•e relief of the distressed districts in Ireland; and 2,600,0001. .for paying off those who dissented from the late arrangements ~.,s, T red to by the House for reducing the Navy Five per Cents. llaving stated so much upon the subject of the advances, he "would now go more particularly upon the contemplated Inca " • siircS with regard to the circulation. This brought them to the ,ounsideration of .what was necessary to be done with regard to notps under five pounds. They must see that they had now Approached so near the expiration of the existing Acts, that Parliament must make up its mind as to what course should be .deilnitively adopted : and either extend the period of their du ration, or prepare for the necessary exertions to fill up the cir ;t•tilation by increasing the metallic currency. For some time past many Banks had been contracting their circulation consi ..derably under their re4tural scale ; he did not mean a scale of spe. e4tlation, , for he hoped that was nit now 'entertained by the ban. •kei:, but that extent which corresponded with their natural and &edit. If the Acts were to be allowed to expire, they must rrerr state what were them intentions, and they must consider will what would be the effect upon circulation not only of this -,ete.tntry, but of the world. The House would, he was sure, ..7i4Ffyi with him that the time was corm:: when sotnething must ..I>a dune; a tie was satisfied that it was both expedient and poatic .not nlw to withdraw the paper currency •altogether 41.7t.n. One. cirenlation. IL! should, therefore; propose that the .4).;.tratc:.,sn of the existing:Act should be made coincident with .fret cf the Bank Charter, namely, to the year 1832. If small o.eintry notes were withdrawn altogether, let them consider -what be the contiequence of creatnsg so much dead ca. • • vtp„t. They were the more called upon to come to this deci -si!,ni ',because they cot ld see a disposition in the country I;felt . demanded it. The people spewed that they pre fetrOd• paper, if. they could have paper with security. It was -intended to propose inserting in the Bill that private bankers. aiheald not be considered to tail in their credit so long as they could pA7i,a-Bank of England paper. J. bad been toe anxious wish and endeavour of the Government to facilitate banking ' operations, as they were sal to affect the pecuniary transactions of the country. They had consequently thought proper to enter into a negotiation with the Bank of England, to obtain , ' such a relaxation of its charter as would enable persons to form , banking companies with more than six partners, so that they do not set up within the monopoly of the Bank in London :and the districts surrounding it, but in what might be called the more provincial parts of the kingdom. The Bank of Lug land was to engage to give up its monopoly beyond the di ;- Lance of sixty-five miles from London, and any joint stock connsany would be allowed to assimilate itself to the Banks in Scotland, to be enabled to sue and to be sued, and to partake of the nature, not of chartered, but of corporated bodies. 'There were twenty-six Banks in Scotland, three of which were chartered, and the others were such as might be established any where, not within 65 miles of London, if the measure should he adopted by the House. There was an average num ber of between fifty and sivy partners in each of the Banks in Scotland ; and when it was considered that all the personal property of theSe individuals was responsible, it. would be seen that a bulwark was raised in the way of security, winch would give the greatest confidence in commercial transactions. He had heard a report of a Scotch Bank breaking the other day, but lie was not sure of the truth or falsehood of the report. ' —Up to this period, however, there had been no failure of a banking house in Scotland thr the last hundred years. This plan, if adopted, would give an indirect and collateral strength to the paper currency, without preventing private Bankers , from employing their capital at profit. Having stated every thing that was necessary upon those heads, he would now pro ceed to call the attention of the House to the financial measures which had been carried into effect, and others which were in con ' templation. He would endeavour to shew what had arisen out of that liberal support which Parliament had so wisely given to the credit of the country. The reduction which the Government had effected upon . the various estimates of the year amounted ' to '2,000,0001. ; and even with the extraordinary charges of the year, Parliament had been enabled to effect that which they had long pledged themselves to, namely, the establish ment of a clear surplue of 5,000,0001. Finding themselves in the possession of this sum, upon mature reflection, thee had consecrated their former determination and pledge, by placing the public' faith beyond • suspicion, and raising the credit of the country to the highest confidence. Ile must here revert to the subject of the Bank, in order to supply an omission which he had accidentally made. As a return to the Bank,, in order to induce it to give up its monopoly, it was proposed to extend its charter to a period not exceeding ten years beyond the time specified by the Act. Upon the faith of that great • operation to which he was alluding, his Right lion. Friend had effected one of the most gigantic financial operations that had marked the annals of this country, namely, the conversion of one species of stock into another species at a much lower rate of interest, to the extent of 150,000,0001. lie was confi dent if at any former period it had been said that in the short space of shy weeks such a transaction would have been effected, toe declaration would not have been believed. Nothing tended to prove the strength of the Government and the resources of the country so much, and nothing so clearly demonstrated that they would continue, if not bro:aen down by unsound policy, as this great and unparalleled operation. By it they had re lieved the people from the annual pressure of 1,300,1)001. of taxes, and facilitated the future reduction of debt, whenever the state of the funds should allow his Right Hon. Friend to reduce it with advantage. In fact, after what they had seen of the ease with which that reduction had been accomplished, that scarcely a word had been heard of it, except indeed in com mendation, it must be henceforward considered as a facile ope- - ration. lie would now call the attention of the house to a mea sure which particular circumstances only could warrant, and for the mention of which he felt that he owed some apology to his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). But it had been his wish that he should mention it in the out line, and his Right lion. Friend upon a future occasion—per haps on Wednesday or Friday—would move Resolutions which' embraced the detail. It was necessary for hint to state why this was the first time, or why the Government had not sub mitted it sooner to the House.. From the nature of the mea sure, it could only be done at a time when, by the tranquillity and general prosperity of the country, its propriety was clear and undoubted. This had been realised by the magnanimity of Parliament, in resisting suck shocks as had been directed against it during the present Session, from the natural impatience of Hon. -Members to remove the distress which pressed upon one class of their constituents. The principle of the measure had been for some time under the considerationsof his Right lion. Friend, but it could not be introduced to the notice of- the House at an earlier period, because it was impossible to give their attention to it until that great financial question of the' reduction of the Five per Cents. had been carried out of the' market. They could not know what difficulties might inter vene, and it was not until they had tranquillized any fear winch might have been entertained of its effect, that they could • embarrass the country and Parliament with the details of a ' measure, certainly not a little complicated and difficult • in its nature.. He certainly did not mean to say that they were 'to look upon the two measures as parallel ; because the other went directly to cut short a portion of the expenditure of the country to the amount of 1,300,0001. This would most assuredly have that result. Its effect would be to place the liquidation of a large portion of the expenditure of the country, namely, that which Was called the dead expence, upon a dif ferent footing from that on which it had hitherto stood. There was at th s present moment an annual charge of 5,000,0(101. upon the Navy, Army, anti Ordnance, for allowances and pen sions, granted for the lives of the parties. This was a debt of the State annually provided for, and standing in a most incon venient relation to the general financial arrangements of the country. It had nothing to do with the ;xpences of the Go-' vernment e but it gave to the public an idea that the expendi ture was not twelve or thirteen millions, as it really was, but ' seventeen or eighteen. What his Right Hon. Friend meant to propose to do with this debt was, instead of including it with the general provisions for the expenditure, to treat it as the con sequence of that war which had given so much glory to the coun try, and which, from its consequence, was never likelyto he re peated. Upon these grounds they were justified in dealing with this debt upon a different principle, as a debt sui geneth, and of adopting regulations with regard to it, dissimilar in their character from those which governed the management of other charges. He should now state to the House what the nature of the debt was in comparison with other periods. It now amounted to 5,000,0004; whereas in the years to which they were generally referred for comparisons, and they should find by the Report of the Finance Committee, at the close of the American war, that it amounted to no more than 050,0001. The House would therefore see what had been the growth of the system; and that it was the duty of the Government to provide against it for the future. From the nature of the charges it would be seen, that, for all practical purposes the • annuities continued for the life of the parties to whom they had been granted. Now many of those who possessed them were comparatively young, and according to the tables with the calculation of annuities, some of them might be expected to live for seventy years; but these would be a very small num ber. The nature of the operation he was about to explain Would be for that House to make a provision for these pay •ments. In doing so, they must in no degree alter the rela tion of the individuals receiying them towards Parliament or the Crown ; he meant the• making them pensioners to auy great body, or to a foreign power. That would be to alter their constitutional election to the Crown, and he should be I the last to recommend any such abridgement of its.. privileges. Also if all their expences were not brought annually' be fore Parliament, that would be an infringement upon the I provisions of the Constitution. But the object was mere- • ly to alter the mode front which the resources far meet- ' ing the expences were to arise. The effect of the present system was to press upon the country with more than fair se verity towards the present generation : and if the . payment were put upon a sound principle, to extend over a period of a greater number of years, it would be rendered more equitable and just. ' The proposition meant to accomplish that object was by raising the sum required from persons who should contract to, pay the expense for the valuation of a fixed annuity for 45 years. 'The question Was, what annuity the public should pay for sttch a contract ? It was proposed not to contract for a ' period beyond the forty-fifth year, because the expense would then become so trifling as not to be worth attention. It was not necessary for him to go into .detail, but he would state something of the general working of the plan. If the House should think fit to grant the annuity for forty-five years of from two millions and a half to three millions, the contract might be had either whole, or if they wished it for each year, prospectively, as they might find it necessary. If they paid 2,800,0001. and made the contract with responsible individuals, the immediate effect would be to save the country 2,200,0001. and consequently ao enable Parliament to give the country that extent of relief. The working' of the ' measure would be that for the first sixteen years they should have the advantage, and after that the Contractors would be reimbursed. No one would be more anxious than he to ac , complish the object so much desired by the Hon. Member for . , Corfe Castle, of tying up the 5,000;0001.'of Ihe Sinking Fund .. to accumulate at compound interest until it operated one per ' - cent. in the reduction of the debt, as contemplated by• Mr. Pitt. With the aid of that relief ich the measure he had . explained would afford to the finance of the country, if it were successfully executed, he had no doubt but that great • object might be effected. Upon his ealculation, if the House • ,determined that the 5,000,0001. should be so set apart, in ten ' years, at simple interest, it would realise the' contemplated • maximnin of the Sinking Fund, the one per cent. by arriving t at the amount of 7,800,0001. This would be the proportion, t- because they should bse that dine 'have operated the re duction of 70,000,0001. 'of nominal debt, namely, from ; 830,000,001. t o 730,000,0001. One of the strongest :motive; which influenced him in recommending the plan was, that it would enable them to tie up the 5,0011,0001. of Sinking Fund to • accumulate at compound interest for this purpose. Suppos, ing, then, that a contract were thus made for an annuity of 2,800,0001. they should immediately place at the disposal of Parliament 1,001,0001. it was not to be said that that would re lieve the distress of theagriculturists. Go forbid that he should create. so illusory an idea as that they were to expect relief from such means. lint it would affind general relief through the cortanmer, the only legitimate means they had of granting it. I should next come to what they were to do with the two - minima: two hundred thousand petinds, supposing the plan to be adopted ; and he Would intreat the House not to look for such relief but through its adoption ; for in no other manner . could they proctire it.. Ile called upon them to look at the gra tifying fact, that if they did adopt it, even in the present Session, they might remit that extent of taxation. It was necessary fir him to explain that there would be some reduction made from the disposable sum, to meet the • growing dead expence which would accrue betwixt the present moment and the ex piration of the ten years. Ile had looked into this part of the subject, and as far as it was possible to solve questions so com plicated and abstruse in their nature, he had every reason to think that the sum of 3 or 400,0001. woui completely cover the dead expence of , that period. He again conjured the House and the country to recollect that this 'relief could only be ob tained through the measure which his Right Hon. Friend would have the honour to propose. Of course the House would not call upon his Right lion. Friend to say what taxes he would propose to remit until the moment at which they were to he taker, oft; as that would be most unjust and injurious to commerce, by inducing unfair speculations upon particu lar articles. Within the last two years, premising that this measure were carried into effect, they would then have re- • mitted to the country the Husbandry Ilorse Tax, 400,0001., 31alt Tax, 1,500,0001, ; and this further sum of. 1,800,01)01., making a total of 3,700,11001. In addition to this, they would be enabled to tie up the Sinking Fund for ten years. And all these operations, - pot, calculated upon any increase of our revenue, which was never going on in so flourishing a condi tion. This, he thought,. would convince the house and the country that the Government were not negligent of the duties which attach to them ; and he could say with the greatest confi dence that the observance of those duties would be in no wise lessened by looking at what they had already accomplished.— Ile bad now to perform the task which fell to his lot, to offer . such suggestions for the consideration of the Committe e as ap peared to grow out of the Report. The first question which naturally presented itself for attention was, whether this was .a seasonable time for bringing the subject at all under the con sideration of Parliament ? Upon this point even the Commit tee themselves had entertained very serious doubts;'and had therefore not authorised their Chairman to propose any specific Measure. He did not mean to be understood as wishing that the present business were in other hands, or as being desi.• rous to throw from the shoulders of Ministers that responsi hility which was inseparable from their situations. Their ob ject had been to take the opinions of Hon. Gentlemen compo sing the Committee, as to what parts of the subject might be advantageously treated of in detail. It, therefore, there were questions of poblle necessity or expediency connected with the question, he trusted his proposition would not, on that ac count, be received with disfavour by the House ; especially as many hints had been received from the other side of the House, that Government ought not to auffer `the Report of the Com mittee to lie on the Table, without messing some measure upon it. - Ile had balanced against each other the many difficulties which overhung the subject, and he confessed he could not see when there was likely to be a more proper time for its discus sion than the present, for it could now he discussed with temper. The ports were now shut against the aimission of foreign corn ; and corn, so far from being near to 80s. was ds low as 575. A Noble Lord opposite had described the Report of the Com mittee as paltry and pbwerless ; but he_ (th e M arqu i s ) rea lly believed that Legislation could do nothing whatever in a gene ralmanner to protect the grower of British corn. The only reason, in his opinion,, for changing the law •might be, that particular circumstances in the present law would work a public mischief, unless' some alteration should be made for a temporary purpose. If therefore the present subject could be viewed as one raising a conaideration on the score of policy, he certainly never knew a moment in which it could be discussed with less heat and passion, or so little embarrassed by strong feelings, as at the present. There would always be strong im pressions on the subject, but this was a moment for confidently appealing.to the good sense of the country. Indeed, it was aba solutely necessary that the country should be undeceived ; for never had there been a case like the one tinder consideration so distorted by false statements and conclusions, He f u lly a d. raitted, however, that this - was a favourable moment for 'rifted measure ; and he believed that even during the present Session some understanding might be come to on the subject. He thought. a Bill might be passed which would avert the im pending calamity, 'as he admitted that the degree of distress could not be rated lower than that of calamity. It was true that at present the ports could not be opened unless the home price was at 80s. ; hut.in case they should by 'some means become open, and a glut should be occasioned by the importation of foreign corn, he thought there would be no difference of opt. Ilion, no, not even between him and the lion. Member for Por tarlington, as to the extent of ruin which would overtake the agricultutiats, not next year alone, but for five, eight, and ten years to come. Three, four, or five minions of quarters of cheap corn would find - their way into the country, and would operate as a night-mare upon the agricultural interest ; would bear it down most ruinously, and would cause the most gloomy view of things all over the country. It was true, that if he were asked his opinion on the chances of the ports being open, he might be disposed to lay a bet against • their opening this year, or even the next, and he would take small odds against I their opening the year after.—(A laugh.)—Nothing but a spe- I cics of dearth ho was persuaded would cause the ports to open while the present .excludiag price was continued, Still the 1 louse would not be able to answer to their constituents if they endangered their interest by neglecting to guard against even the possibility of such an event. The ports had nearly opened last year, and Parliament ought not to slumber on their posts while the Agricultural Interest was in• danger.— (Hear, hear, hear !)—He was persuaded that a Government putting their reliance upon the good sense of the country would find their way to ultimate success. The. substance of this question lay he thoUght in very narrow limits ; and if there should appear to be a rational difference of ,opinion in the details, he would adOpt it rather than risk the visitation to which he had alluded. When they came to grapple with the question, he was convinced that the obj ec t h e had- mentioned clinld be. accomplished ; and he would shortly. state the grounda of his opinion, in which he was happy to-s a y he was confirmed by that of the persons whom he considered as the most intelli-. gent class of ,the community ; therefore he did not wish to speak offensively of any class. The present law was admitted to be generally defective, sometimes ruinous : it., caused either monopoly, or unrestrained importation ; and he really thought the Member for Portarlington would alter his present opinion, if he gave die subject another and a serious 'consideration. He (the Marquis) and that Hon. Member were both agreed as to the necessity ofdoties ; their difference of opinion was merely upon the quantum ; and here he thought it was scareclypossible for the difference of opinion to be very great. lie should range those who agreed in principle on the question of duty into two classes: one was for duty from 20s. to 40a., and the other was for duty from,loa. to 20s. ; and he confessed he believed the latter class, of which he supposed the Hon. Member for Poi= tarlington was at the head ; and of course,he need not add that he thought this class : had arrived- at the truth—(a laugh)—and he apprehended that all who considered the subject would ultimately be convincea that it was according to that scale that Parliament should treat the question. The Hon. Mem ber for Pottarlington had. stated the day he proposed first at 205., but he afterwards lowered it to 10s. He (the Marquis) approved of that duty ; but when others called for a duty of from 20s. to 405., they surely must suppose that there was no charge whatever but the, duty upon foreign corn. That there were other heavy charges had been abundantly proved last Ses sion. If the corn w ere i m p or t e d and carr i e d to an immediate market, it could not reach the market at a less price than 10s. or 12s. to the Importer. Then there were charges of insurances and other incidents which could not be taken at less than from ss. to 7s. To this must be added that commercial profit, without which no one would embark his capital,. and which might be moderately calculated . at 10 per cent. which would be five shillings more. All this was supposing the market to be immediate ; but if the corn were warehoused, there must be an additional allowance of ss. a-year. 'Faking ho*ever 10s. as the minimum of charge, and allowing ss, for a-year's ware housing on the average, and then, he would ask, was it possible to propose a duty of 40s. a quarter, ?—( H ear, hear !) —Such a duty could not survive a moment after its own creation, and would argue that those 'who proposed it were composed of ma terials very different he trusted from those of that House. It would amount to an absolute prohibition, unless corn were at a famine price. Really, with all deference, be thought the Members of this ultra-school were not worth arguing with. • But when the question was looked at in connection with more moderate duties, the proposed remedy became efficient and powerful. There was another delusion against which lie pro tested, and the exposure of which was, he thought, a serious duty. It had been confidently said by some that foreign corn could be delivered here for 355. a quarter. This statement had not a leg to stand upon. In a few places on the Continent lie admitted that prices were very low indeed, but the farmers of • those places must feel a depression as weir as ourselves. • It was a delusion to hold out these as places aflhrding information • •as to the general price. lie confidently affirmed that, gepe , rally, it was impossible to import at such . * sum. 'He would just refer to the average price at the Dantzic market. Taking it at an average on the last seven years, and without allowing for the clatrgea)f importation, the price was 435. Indeed, to say that it could be delivered at 335. was nothing less than a perversion of the fact ; and if it were only to undeceive the country as to this one. circumstance, he thought it was the duty of Ministers to bring the subject forward. With the persons who held this opini o n he fo u nd it impossible to argue. They were beyond his sphere. On this subject he believed there had been no difference of opinion in the .I . ommittee. The proposi tion or the Jlenthcr tier Portarlington - was for a permanent duty of 205., which he ultimately lowered to 10s. He (the Marquis) would submit a duty of 125., with an additional .'is., for the first three A Right Honourable Friend of his, however, intended to submit another proposition, which would be more certain in its nature. Ile (the Marquis) had thought that a discriminating duty would be advan tageous; but that the House would have the advantage of hearing the able opinion of his Right Honourable Friend, who would propose a duty of 155., without the reference to the floating temporary duty of .ss. He was perfectly willing to take either one or the other of these duties. It had been said that Parliament would be doing nothing by giving protecting duties; but these persons imagined that protection was price. But whether these persons were right or wrong in this in. stance, they and many others imagined that Parliament had some - charm by means of which it might relieve the distresses of the nation. It must be evident that the holders of foreign corn would not venture to pay the 15s. duty, and go into the market, unless they had a certainty of selling. The duty would therefore materially assist in the keeping of this corn in warehouses ; and the English grower would be protected against the danger of an influx. Ile was perfectly willing to take the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend, which was for the higher duty. lie had authority upon which he could rely with confidence, for stating that the charge incurred by the im porter was not less than 12s. per quarter. This, with the proposed duty, would amount to •275., to which 2s. were to be added, as proposed by the Committee. This was within 3s. of the higher ditty proposed by the Hon. Member for Portarlington ; so that they were nearer to each other than had been imagined. The argument, however, in favour of the high. duty, was, that importation would be inordinate on the opening of the ports ; but his objection to this was, that a measure like the present should not be general. The supporters of the high duty looked to ,future years ; but for his own part he had not the gift of prophecy. The duty, he conceived, would be a tax upon the importer rather than. the consumer, though it might 'be plau sibly argued that this came round again. Suppose, however, that the duty and charge amounted to twenty-seven shillings before the corn reached the English.market, and that the ports might be opened, if the English price were at 70s. The whole cost on the foreign corn could not be taken at -less than 435. besides the duty and charge, so that here would be nothing but a competition ,Upon equal price, on the chance of profit upon the small difference between 70s. and the price at which the foreign grower could bring his corn into the Market ; a differ ence which could never be very great. In ordinary years the duty would amount to an actual prohibition, until the home price was at 70s. or higher. On a former occasion, it had been found that 235. ditty operated as an exclusion to foreign corn. He, for' his own part, should have no fears on account of the Etiglhh grower, if the ditty were to be fixed at less than 20s.— Nay, he Was satisfied that under a duty of 20 per cent. not one quarter of foreign corn would find its way out of the ware house. But, at all events, he was convinced that if the house agreed upon the elements of the question, they would not dis agree .upon minor points ; and he trusted that the principle would be adopted not merely by a majority, but by a general concurrence. The measure proposed was a position but of temporary security, and would be adopted, on the ground that if' evil should come for the want of it, the ruin would be com plete. Having said thus much, he admitted that there were many stumbling-blocks in the way though he trusted they would be removed in the course of the discussion.. The Bon. M ember for Portarlington had been reluctant to fix upon 00s. for a beginning, but his Right Hon. Friend was not alarmAl at fixing 70s. - There were the strongest motives for taking up , the subject now ; as ruin .was in prospect. In ordi-• nary times he did not think there would ever. be any dif ficulty on the question of duty : or that" there would be any occasion for . protecting duties at all. The expenses of impor tation alone would be a practical difficulty, he had almost said a permanent duty, in the way of Importation. But, at the present time, he admitted that an importation price. was ne cessary, as otherwise an universal quantity of low priced corn might find its way into our markets, and it was better not to try - the experiment. Indeed, if they thought otherwise, they would not be thought to be able to persuade the country they .were right. It was better at all events not to hazard the safety of the country ; and that the Agricultural interest should be protected against an inundation of foreign corn. He had now performed the task of laying before the House such con siderations as had suggested themselves to him, and growing out of the Report itself. He confessed that he had, in the first instance, entertained different views of the subject, but he • had willingly deferred his opinion to the opinion of others, and :had sanctioned that of the mass of the Committee. Indeed he ought, to state, that in general there had been a coincidence of opinion in the Conimittee. The propositions he had to submit were in the shape of Resolutions:—the first was to anthOrize the advance of one million on British corn now warehoused.— The second was to authorize the grinding of .foreign corn now warehoused in this country,,with the view to its being after wards exported, care being taken that it should not be con sumed in this country.—The third was to alter the existing corn laws, so far as they related to the amount of the importation duty ; substituting new duties for the old ones. The ports under the proposed alteration would be opened at eighty shil lings,. . would remain open at and above seventy shillings.— At the present moment, he understood, there was a very large mass of corn in warehouses, as much he believed as, 900,000 quarters of which between 6 and 700,000 were of wheat. When the ports should be open, the whole of this would come into the market without any duty whatever. Par- • liament had the right as well as the power to impose duties prospectively—that is to say, upon corn to be imported ; but it couldnot, without a breach of national fajth,, impose duty upon the, corn now in warehouse. It was better to let in the limited quantity, as the influx would then be less without. lie had now stated every thing necessary for the information of the House, except the course of proceeding. tie trusted his Right Hon. Friend would put his views into the shape of Re solutions, which would put the House in possession of two sets of Resolutions, differing not in principle, but merely in dis tinc.ion. Ile feared they could not be conveniently discussed to-night, and he would therefore propose that they should be read pro forma, printed and distributed among the Members, and then an early day (Friday perhaps) might be fixed upon. for the discussion. It was most important that the measures, if agreed to, should not be delayed, especially that which re ferred to , the advance of one million upon the warehoused English corn. The Noble 31 arqu is then shortly apologised for having trespassed so much upon the time of the house, thanked them for the patient hearing they had given him, and sat down amidst universal cheering, having first moved the following Resolution:— " That it is the opinion of this Committee that a sum not ex ceeding one million be•granted to his Majesty for the purpose of the same being advanced under the direction of Commis sioners to be appointed for that purpose, in the purchase of corn. of British growth in British warehouses, when the average price of the same corn shall not exceed 60s. per quarter." . _ The question being put, Mr. WISTERN said, he rose for the purpose of making a few observations on the very comprehensive speech of the Noble afrjuis. lie paid the greatest attention to all that had fallen from bins on this .very important subject. lle was much asto nished at perceiving that the Noble Marquis introduced various. topics not immediately connected with the question of agricul tural distress—he..meant those of a financial nature, which he thought would be more properly introduced in'the elan which the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) meant to submit to the House. His expectation, and the uni versal expectation of the Honse, he believed, was, that the Noble Marquis would have confined himself to the Report of the Com mittee. Ile felt much surprised, therefiire, when he introduced financial matters that were quite irrelevant. This, he must con fess, raised some apprehension in his mind that there was no plan iu contemplation that could •afihrd any thing like Me,' plate relief He admitted, however,' that the propositions of the Noble Marquis were not liable to one objection brought against the Report of the Committee, that of being calculated merely to enhanoe the price of corn. It was evident that the operations alluded to by the Noble Lord, before he came to the main subject, had for their object to increase the circulating medium of the. country. This was the tendency of his propo sed alteration in the law restricting the number of partners in private Banks. Another observation, 'which implied an alter ation in the Act of 1819, had the same tendency. The alter ation of the currency not only affected the agriculturist, but also all the industrious • classes of the country. The profit on all commerce was reduced by that measure ; and certainly the futile attempt of the Noble Lord to-night could not mend materially the condition of the people.---(Here such confusion prevailed below the Bar, that, the . observations of the Hon. Member were for a considerable time inaudible.)—The opera tion of the Act of 1319 reduced this country to a situation which no man contemplated ; and he hoped Gentlemen would retrace their steps with regard to that measure. The establishment of private banks might be to increase the circulation of money, but it would lose in credit what it obtained in extension, and that extepsion not going to the benefit of the distressed agriculturists. But while this was going - forward, thousands of victims were daily falling a sacrifice to the plans of the Right Hon. Gentle men opposite. The Act of 1819 brought down the price of 'corn below that amount which'would remunerate the farmer. EVen during the war the price of corn was not more 'than enough ; but now, reduced as' it was, the farther could not live and pay 'his expellees. Corn might fluctuate in price— even now it alight advance, but he contended, by the Act of 1/319, that the money price of corn was only equal to what it was before the war. Ile admitted the propositions of the - Noble Lord had better be discussed separetim, but he did not see that their conjoint operation would relieve the present-dis- - tresses. The money price of all other commodities diminished as much es that of corn, in consequence of the Act of 1819. He had documents to prove that tact, but he would not now go into any unnecessary. detail. The official value of our ex ports was merely comparative—but then the real value was that alone on which any fair calculation could be founded. In 1814, the real value of our exports exceeded the numerical in the proportion of 29 per cent. ; in 1821 it was vice versa exactly. In 1821 the official exceeded the real value to the amount of 12? et per cent. and that on all descriptions of British manufacture ; this very fact demanded inquiry. Such-a stetement spoke vo lumes as to the distressed,stateeof. agriculture and commerce. He asked, was it possible to attribute this to any other, cause than the change -of the value of ,currency ? lie could not contemplate an answer in the negative. ~ As the House was unwilling to hear him.—(llear ' hear !)—he should not pursue the subject much further.; bet the. could not help tracing the present dititress in a great degree to the curtail ment of the currency. Though the House was blind to the .people's distresses, the common sense of the country would, he hoped, at length open their eyes. This House might be more insensible to the ruin now impending over the little farmers than any other society ; but, after all, their situation must be attended to.—(Bear, hear !)—Since 1819, perhape there might be an in crease of trade—an additional number of persons might have been employed, but still there was a diminUtion of profit in every brand) of trade. Distress pressed, perhaps, most heavily on the agriculturists ; but his firm conviction was, it also pressed on every class of the community. The lion. Member then implored the House not to suffer themselves to be deluded by what had fallen from the Noble Martinis . ; his plans . . could n ot relieve the existing distress, and, therefore, something better must he done to obviate it. Honourable Gentlemen might go on and support the ministers, but the day would shortly arrive when the calamities which oppressed the country must be met by some sound and effectual remedy. Mr. RICARDO said, that the plan of the Noble. Lord, how ever disguised, was nothing more, nor less than an attack upon the Sinking Fund. That fund would no longer be five millions, if a portion of it were to be now taken in.dimmution of the taxes. He entered his protest against prolonging the Charter of the Bank ; it was, at the same time,. of the utmost importance to preserve our public faith and adhere to our public contracts. it. might be an improvement to create new banking firms, brit he hoped the Bank Charter would never be renewed. In fact, all the benefits enjoyed by the Bank from the circulation of a paper currency ought to have gone to the benefet.ef the public. It was a mere chimera to imagine that the conduct of the Bank, could benefit the public. The plan he proposed was a duty or 20s. whereas 508. was forced upon lum by the distresses of the country. Upon principle such a sum never 'could be eetablished• He proposed 78s. now, in order tomeet the extreme distress of the agriculturists, and he therefore.should give them a monopoly of 70s.but no further. The Noble Lord went higher, and he though t most improperly. The farmer he thought most cruelly used. When the farmer had a short crop all foreign corn was admitted, in place of allowing hint that benefit to which othereireonistartee ought to have entitled him. In point of fact the poor farmer had no protection, and was left by the Noble Lord's plan in as. bad a condition as he was before. Protecting duties would be ot no avail unless there were a drawback to the same amount. TIl; grower and the importer of corn had opposite interests, an,' where exportation was not allowed the evils wo u ld b e increase"' Ile did not complain of the conduct of landlords, but he sari' reason why, from their meeting together in a room, they 'hau l " be considered the best judges of what was to be done bet Ween them and their tenantry and the various classes of mannfae ,turers. If as they (the landed gentry) said the interest of al l classes wes.the same as theirs, why not have, some gentleme n front the city on their Committee ? He imputed no blame it°. them for what they had done, but in fairness they ought- tt ' consider they could not be the best judges when they w ere dividually so much interested. With regard to the plai' of ollowing money at a lower rate of interest than hithert o iaid, he thought .it was not creditable to the Noble Mr ( ' ndeed he ought to be ashamed of it, and if he were n°,t he (Mr. R.) hoped the House would not adopt it. [ Here til l lion. Member read a series of Resolutions, the object of " 4) ,, i e e .e. l e we could not gather.]—Before he sat down, he begged whether, after a month, the corn would be subject to the or lower duty ? • r The maket Marquis for the gonfarLteOr_NdaDyOwNoDolEd guide Rlt the said,p price e e w se i l d t i e r o e f sT r t. to the Sinking Fund. His object was to let it go on at COt?: pound interest, and not as stated by the Hon. Member WI ° had just spoken. With respect also to the advantage of 3 Loan, he was quite persuaded, without now entering into any unnecessary detail, that any Honourable Member . who dub' appreciated it, must be convinced of its great and permanen t utility. But if the Honourable Member meant to say tha t his 125., so far from being a fixed duty, was to be applied, t t e ) , foreign corn with reference to the price of corn at home, s° (Lord Londonderry's) 20s. was to be considered with th e s 3 reference. e tion• Mr. RICARDO begged to say one word in explall .o e er •The only Sinking Fund that he could recognise was the • plus Revenue. Nj ble , Mr. BROUGHAM considered the arrangement of the. , 'Lord, for taking the debate on a future day, extremely con'ef nient. At the same time, while he agreed to the proorietY ee % that suggestion, he wished to make one or two observat", for the purpose of courting explanation on points not cleaore ly understood. He was desirous of entirely laying view the whole controversy respecting the distresses of country. It was said one class had gained all that another ll.a tt ; lost, but he could not admit that circumstance to be a set t m l distress. He wished, however, on that occasion not to admit that one class had gained what another had lost. The rate wages in manufacturing districts might be better, because t', l . fanners were starving : But that was a had state of things ; the first of the Noble Lord's proposals was a substitute for it project of the - Agricultural Committee, namely, to take ea r upon hire. This was one of the most ridiculous plans ever know e ti e It was raising up the three golden balls, and making the Treas,t_ i t ,,,/, pawnbrokers. The next project was that of the bankers ; t" ; l e were to have permission to circulate small notes for a eer' e a "l number of ,years. There were many disadvantages attaeneitit to this project ; war was one of the evils, but he should n t mention war. Many thought there. was no danger of v ti e ; e ' whilst the' country was bound in a recognizance of 800,00* the not to break the peace. The compensation is to be given t „ ° , ,te ie Bank Was . excessive.' Was it reasonable to prolong the P . r ,, 31 1, Charter for ten years for the mere consent not to issue s u ' re , notes ? He was afraid the plan would encourage a it o il' her of speculating Banks who would decoy customers , the n drive a trade injurious to the country. Mr. Brougham _ er e objected to the annuity plan. It was most extraordlan'ely that men could go on for sixteen years paying C ou ld and taking no benefit for so many years. They fa y , .not do it for nothing. They would make the public smartly. He did not believe much could be gained by the P the mitt. le. It was drawing upon the Sinking Fund, and millsin,g ibe e country pay for a tontine. No Man was more disposet' tee himself to allow the value of a Sinking Fund upon sound P o , A S cijiles. To a nation which had a debt of 800,000,00 01 . it , h r advantageous. The nation ought, however, to have a surplus. They ought to go on with the • Sinking Fond "„ 0 0 the income of the people was improved, and then cal l _,,Vi t y. them to pay a portion of the debt adequate to their au _„.. . 4 He should have occasion perhaps to move a string of Resueilit.• tions on the subject, but he could not conclude without sal,; of the House would not do its duty, if they parted at the the Session without examining strictly the resources might be obtained from rigid parsimony. net' • Mr. HUSKISSON agreed with the Hon. and flea.nitr Member who had last spoken, in thinking that the real t ty - Fund was no other than the Surplus Revenue. e con w e i t t. He the lilted the Committee on having, at the commencement who Session rejected the suggestion of the Learned Membe r .' Ni ho n he had called upon them to apply 3,000,0001. to the dinil, n ., k i e ge of taxes, and which would have left them without a Sink Fund. But by the present plan., Government was em.Zking act up to the very letter of the Act of 1792, to maintain a - s , the Fund of 5,000,0001., and to remit, if not this year, at gems beginning of the next, the public burthen to a greater cov,.ri) than the Learned Gentleman had sought to accomplieh ereitien the the destruction of the Sinking Fund. The Learned Gen"the had observed upon that part of the plan -which relatedZ iii extension of the period allowed to the country honks for te do titi b e e L s el, ° f ciliation of small notes, and also to that part which tc away with the monopoly enjoyed by the Bank of Enge . nue being composed of more than six members. Ile ( C r , l _E s se , : kisson) felt surprised that the Honourable Member ,r,o; circ a could have contended that they could not continue h tn e f° r . tr ie lation of notes under cashe pounds without repealing t the resumption o f made to the Committee might recollect that he (Mr. 11.) I n i a lva g n°ll. that Bill passed, proposed the ,very measure which that it e about to be adopted. Let it not then be suPPo s ; Act 0 ' was not the intention of Government to abide by ‘ o f t he 1819. Ile was so far from thinking that this extension te a s te r il e : e p o o l w a e tt r on o! tictaotunhtrey rather banks w su ou p l p d os e e el d ve irtisewotonhint inordinate e look to dency directly the reverse. Let the Committet n resumptiont aAycJI. hanneenao and see - if in that country the banks had not ofb r gd .Scotland, where the plan had long been acted iceca ps acted as a check upon each other. On the point e _ cites ha doubted ahe m.• been so extensive as was generally believed. He co . so d a 'a single prosecution had for many years taken la ntea su . r s, he did not believe th.at the circulation of country banks At all events it was not a sufficient objection against hout sons" evil of great national importance to say,that it was wit 1 se: an ..th too ON Cc si z C c th( Vita r eef 4 rte Pea. i *l)4 11 7 F ate; tth r . :Art( 'Wel] teal i ~leev to be