The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-20 00:00:00

IV 7,pe mi ssion o ertmes, it therefore follow- that--,he could get rid of it himself ? A matt might' get rid of his- life- by the commission of crimes, but' would he be justified in taking-away his own life. by, suicide-? It ap peared to him, that Holy Orders were, in many re. spats like marriage, which was also a Sacrament,. and ceased to - be so at the Reformation ; but it did not then become a mere civil coutrad which Might be put an end to . by the Foment of the parties.— Marriages were now' by the Law of the Land in dissoluble even in cases 'of adultery, though in par ticular cases _the Legislature might interfere. It was formerly. held, that Minors might contra 4 mar- .riage without the consent of their parents or guar dians-, . because it was c onsidered as a religious cert. • , IttortY, and that continued to be the Law of the ,Land.until the Marriage.Aa ; but even that merely attended to marriage by. licence, for as to marriage •by banns, the: Law remained. as before. It appear_ ed to him : that the Hon. Gentleman confounded two things Which were very distinct, .the possession of • ilie . clerical.ehara&er,nnd the possession of a bone_ q„ The-Ho n: Gentleman might, orite might not Ipew.nothirig-of-hls private life), be able to obtain the- necessary testimonials ; if he could not, -undoubtedly; hecouki:not•be inducted into a bene fice ; bite then it would arise from his not ,having the necessary testimonials,. 'and not from his being a . Layinan„ • Thd Hon: Gentleman• could no more . ;esign his clerical :charaelet than a•Peer could his . .dignity—They were both . for:life, and the Hon. ,Gentleman could no w administer the Sacrament, &c. This indelibility of charader might in particular cases he inconvenient to. the individual ; tar 4 he was convinced, that it . was: far the . public ad vantvge that the Law should be ,a s. it now stood. • I t /T ight appear hard that pirsOns who after . per. paps d •Inonth's acquaintance married, should be compelled, even though their tempers disagreed, to live , together the,,, remainder of their lives ; but w h en pcuple kneW iiiar . separation. was impossible, they, n ever indulged the hope. • In the . case of Cler_ .. gy this of character might, in par. cases, be. fotind inconvenient; but it was betOr t hat . odividuars should suffer that inconveni:. ' •ence, than that the. Minds, of 'persons in Holy Or, ...d ers .Aould be left open to allurements and tempta '' t io n s which Would diStraCt • their minds from the sacred duties of itteir . °thee. With respett to the Bill before the Housei-fic' had only, to - say, that his opinion Originally was;i'Aat another course ought to heve been adopted ; but the House having thought otherwise, he bowed to their decision, and should support this Bill, conceiving, as 'he did, that the i louse of Commons was a Lay AssemblY, and that this was not the period to make -experiments upon the Constitution. . Dr. -LAwits-Nct, in a short 'Speech, supported the opinion of the Learned Gentleman who precetL 'ed him. , Mr. GREY said, he assented to all that had fallen from the Learned Gentleman tespeeling the indeli bility of the Char:lC.ler l but he denied that the Cha_ • • ratters of a Priest and a Legislator were incompa : tible. In the early periods of our history, the .Clergy, though they formed a distind body, yet did constantly in . Temporal Affairs, and held Civil (Aces; and therefore he considered the two charatiata.as by •nd.Means incompatible. He how_ • ever whiled. to - exclude_ the Clergy, .not because he thot.iht that they were more liable to corruption ili4n Zither - piq. - ,that he thought their Secular Duties would interfere with their Spiritual ones, `and that theibiittitig In: that House would open a '-0-44 - oitnr'ee. of influence.: IleAtherefore wished that this. . B t u' 5 1 ) 2u1d tender every pelsoet . bOlding'r .Benefice • ,d7Prktibititig.:An'y r-CUrgyinan having ,onet a 'Sea '0 it ,411 A Ise use from ever holding a Be ,,.;4ca'afigi‘farcts..!.4not!ter objeetiqip ,he .had to 'o",.. t hiat:itipittagety4latir Avasa,..peetaraiory, and -noi an Enaßing Law, for, upon.exattining all the prece. a67 t - s . ;" .1-iiliAlieti" . 4llFeellhit • The - Law , was as 'to be. He then commented Haejcsee t who appear_ ed to in. Holy:Qtairs t it yet presented a Bill s . ••• 1 1tr.tpiyt , •41Valt# - f4 was ,afterwards con, t • tienane&toieath, ant inferie .from. ;his case, . • ..;•••;ittiallittse;ti+mlieity-krilert -at that: time siv, iiv e 132usei.9c,:C9 1 1t it oni -4.--itison' these grounds' he rt. • . • ' should oppose the t • . • IF211:‘ , 1 - EOTT-Usirized, .that, _it, Etecinently occur red ancient:time s , , t h a t WerepreSented • 'l l or re not ins Holy Qrders.. , t CE.';XCEI.4ORV - the EXCIIEQVER said, detain, the House but a short time, . as, he eonl.V.add .rithing.to thelOrce of the arguments Of . ItiAltrlbii:'atiti - Learned Friend: -He wished, . ,bowever, to obServe, that in'the Journals of former times, Petitions and. Bills were described in the same terms, :and, therefore the Bill 'which Sir Thoi. Hackset, .was stated to have presented, -might have been a Petition: With respett to what had fallen from an 'Hon; Gentleman (S/Ir. Gaav), he admit. •ted, that the Clerical Charaaer was . indelible ; but 'contended; that it was not incompatible with that of a Legislator.' Upon this, subject, he concurred in °pi n i o n .with his Right Hon. and Learned Friend,. t that ;Ails was a •Lay Assembly, :and though the Canons of the Church did not expressly say the two Chaili&eis tutee incompatible; yet;.he Wasjikstifio contepdifig, that they were by the Lex'et Parhamenti, which, . except in the case of • • -Rusliworth, had been uniformly adhered to. The , .6r3t regulation, which the Hon. Gentle Man wished to propose was, that PersOns having a Benefice .should'not be eligible he could not conceive a more - regulation; because' t would leave persons in,Holy Order a kind of loop-hole to get out . of their profession, and , would induce them, in. the early part of their lives, to direct their talents, • their studies, arid their views, to objeas incon. sistenCeWith chities of their holy ,office—it would afforil them temptations to ambition, an l keep Oleic . minds in a:state of, suspense and .elistradion. .This was 'a situation ,it the' duty of the Le.' • 4 , !mute -topreth(Thein being place 4 • ; b ecause • it would ren4 to divest. the Clerical Charadei of - the resPetallity, v. 71) Ch be at Cacti , •:. ,e 1 to 'it. -.l4&•Conld'erineeive. , nothing more desirable than that the mind of a young ClergymarKshould be ilireelctii.to .one °Neel, 'ilia that he should know ........rk t -he+ael-nO.--o , thei.-nieans -of obtaininithe. esteem of h is .couetrymen_ o than b)r 'devoting all his at -'••••• .• ••••4 1 ~ V, engaged.. 7 .vifitinttpe - 4t-%tcf r :tile - OtAcri. Keguta tion of the Honourable Gentleman, that Persons .in. Holy - Orders having -once. sat in -that- Hops; should not afterwards be capable ,of holding a Bene- , fice, it was equally objectionable, becatise it either . went to divest a man of his Clerical Charader altogether, which the Hon. Gentleman admitted was impossible, or else it left him capable of per. • forming part of his fundions, Such . as marrying, burying, &c. He - was sure the Hon. Gentleman must see the impropriety of , adoptirig such:a . regulation. The Hon. Gentleman . objeded to the declaratory part of thiS Bill, because he was not satisfied by the precedents . that 'persons in Holy Orders could not sit in that House; but those who thought that they were always ineligible, must of course support this Bill ; at.-the same time he admitted that the Hon: Gentleman who thought otherwise was consistent:in opposing the Bill. He would not trouble the House any ,longer- 7 -he had merely risen to say a word or two upon what kd fallen from the Hon: Gen-. tleman (Mr. GREY) ; as to the general argoment he should he ashamed to say a-word upon ir, after ' , stmt had been so forcibly urged by . his Right•Bon..ind • - learned friend. Mr. GREY, in explanation, said, he had not id.: mined the indelibility of the Clerical Charaaer,i but only avoided entering into . that question 'at the I present moment, and conceded it for all the purlioses . of this • discussion.— As to the idea that he l.ad thrown out respecting admitting the Clergy. to.sii in that House, on' condition that they should after wards never be allowed- to accept •any Chinch Berm.. fice, he only meant' what:he, had expressed, that they should be debarred accepting any Benefice- , -, not, that they should not afterwards be permitted to exercise Clerical funa - icns. . Lsrd ALA WKESB URI' rose .to .reply to one ar.; gument used by the . Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ga El)1 The Question before the House .heepocsived to, resolvable into two points : Ist . , Is the Clerical .Character indelible? .and, ally, Allowing the / inde •libility, does it render the Clergy ineligible to - a seat in this House ? Now, in. answer to the - min_ ment of the . HOn.-Gentleinan; to which he meant to confine himself, he would caltueon him to,produce one instance, from the earliest periods of the History 'uf Pa . rliament, ofa Clergypiarrhaving sat in the HOuse, as a Clergyman. There may be instances of per. sons in Holy Orders having 'sat as Laymen, .but none, of their haring - appeared 10 the House, in the Clerical dress and chara&er. Now if these persons had not been convinced themselv:es of their ineligi bility. as Clergymen, they would not have laid aside, in this House,- the ,garb of their profession which they had been accustomed .to wear. This'he contended, was a strong,propf in opposition to the Hon, Gentleman's statement, that the indelibility of the Clerical . Characier does not destroy the 'eli gibility- of the Clergy ;. and. that it has ever been the general opinion of Parliament, and of the Coon_ try, that 'persons Who have been in Holy Orders are, ineligible. He admitted, that as in all general cases of this kind, inconveniencies may result from . establishing the indelibility .of the character, and the . consequent ineligibility. _Were thiS Bill the en.. aament of new laws and of new regulations on the subjed, and not merely a declaration of what is at ready and.ever has been the law, then the House would be bound to inquire what inconveniencies would. result from each side of the question, and to decide npon'which side the balance rested ; but this is not the case,. and though it . were, he Would be prepared to contend, that much fewer, and smaller inconveniencies would result .from making the &in ciplei of the present Bill the Law, 'than from ad mitting the Clergy to lay aside their character, and ,to be eligible to sit in this House,---Lord HAwlas- Dual' concluded: with a resumption of some of the arguments used by the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQOER on this point. • Mr.,Gßrk again explained.- . Mr. BR AGGE felt . a difficulty in reconciling the - arguments used by_ Mr. GREY, and attempted tO. sliew their inconsistency.. He 'alsa correded - the statenient, of that gentleman, that the Clergy had stt as a third, branch of the Legisl ature, deliberat- Ans,on temporal' affairs. Be contended that the expression, The Lords, Spiritudl and Temporal, and Corrimoni of Great Britain; in' Parliament assem bled, ever comprehended in its meaning the . Clergy siting n'a separate House as a third branch of the Legislature. He did not expel, after what had 'passed in the ; Committee, to . have heard the Hon Gentleman mention the' case ,of Sir•Ttiom4s ' -HACK-SEE. &it he .had learned a circumstance since the breaking up of the Committee; which, in his opinion; was a 'clear proof that Sit THOMAS HACK-. SEE never was a Member of the House 'of. Com mons. It is mentioned in Rymer's Colledions that lie was the Representative, of Lord SUFFOLK. Now this niustMean that he was the Proxy of that NO blenran in. his 'absence in the House of Peert, and being such,., he could not,bej Member of the HouSe of Commons. Mr. BR ' ACGE expressed his decided approbation of the Bill. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT'S Amendment was then put andnegatiVed. , The original Motion being then put, '• ‘, Mr.. HORNE TOOKE said, he'clid not mean to enter into any of the points which had been now de bated, nor did he intend to notice the gross misre- Rresentations of what had fallen' from him,• by the ight Hon. and Learned Gentleman,, though per ' haps he would enter -into the whole Question at large on another occasion. • :His intention at pre sent was, after making: a' few observations, to move, the, recommitment 'ofthe Bill. -- . • . The SPEAKER said, that this Motion could not be made, as the Bill was tQi? far .advanced in its progress to be recommitted consistently with the order of proceedings ; but after it had been read ' a third time,• -the lion. Gentleman. might move what Amendments-he might think necessary. The Bill was•then read a third time. Mr. T OOKE thought*tbat be ccmld convince the House that' many Amendments would be. necessary to be made in this 10 1 'and that if they were inot made, it would go down to posterity as a weight hanging about the necks of the present ParliaMent, -He' did pot say that it would be sufficient of itself to consign its memory to disgrace, but connected iiiilli - cithtt — Aitrof this Parliament infringing on the . •7 tend. to produce thii etteeC. Wtiat is. the langtmgc of the Preamble I "Whereas it expedient to pre vent doubts as to the eligibility of persons in Ho!). . Orders to sit in the House of Commons, also to make' more effeCtual 'provision for excluding them from sitting therelol''. Here no reason is ns'.igned for the passing of. the Bill ; arid if,. to. the disgrace of the House, it should pass with this Preamble altered, he did not think that it was likely to meet the approbation of the - Bishops in the other House. For how does ' the case stand ? The' body of the Bill does not consist with 'the Preamble. In the body of th - e Bill, 'the expression " being or ha 4 ing been in Holy Orders'," twice occurs. Now, 'ac cording to the principles of the Church of England, it is held that a person cannot be ordained to Holy Orders, except by a regular successor of the Apos- • ties, which the Church conceived its Bishops to be, through the uninterrupted succession of the Bishops ofilorne.' . This, ordination the Honse is told also confers an indelible charaeter. The language, be ing : or having been, may therefore apply to the Clergy of the Chiirch of England. But does it ap ply to the ,Clergy of the, Church of Scothind ? By p 9 means ; persons being in Orders in that Church are indeed, eligible; but its Ministers :ray lay aside their clerical character whenever they choose, .and thus becorr:a eligible to a seat ,in the HoUse.' The express an . , " having beets,'` cannot therefore apply to them. &great (It!' al. Las been said of the indelibility of.ihe Clerical Charader. It will not, be pretended that Chri s tianity is an indelible thing, though it is conferred by a wi:ole Sacrathent, Bap tism.. But Holy Orders are indelible, it seems,. because ; the ceremony which confers them is a fraaion,of. a • Sacrament,- according to the Right •Honourable and, Learned. Gentleman. But where theindelibility of charaaer conferred by it the reig n of EDWARD the' Sixth ?' All the ; Clergy -"were then ordained Protestants ; but on .the succession of MARY, they all became Papists, ur exposed themselves to the risk of being burned. Put•the,case the other way : In MARY'S Reign all the .Clergy 'wcre _ordained Papists ; on the night .„ of her death, they .went to bed Papists;, and the next morning, on. the succession of ELIZABETH, they_rose Protestants, .He had heard much of the learning displayed:in support of the position of the . indelibility of the Clerical Charaaer.. For his part he hid not been able to perceive any of it. No au thority had been adduced, and assertion had been substituted in the room of proof. What opinion of the Apostles, what text of Scripture, nay even what ,Canon had been quoted ? He had heard no learning, but merely boldly stated opinions and positive Air mations. If this be learning and ability, the boldest and most impudent man is. the most learned and the ablest.. He had been called - upon to prOduce an adjudication that persons in Holy Orders are eligi ble to aSeat. in .the Ile.would in his turn call loran adjudication of the eligibility of a Biscuit Baker, an Iron.monget, or a Stockbroker. He had understood one argument in support of the Bill to be,that it was !intended to prevent corruption in the House. He was surprised that Ministers'should coincide in this argument, for if the admission of the Clergy tcz sit in the House 'would prodUce cor ruption; to whom ought the blame to be imputed r Not to the,Clergyohe corrupted , but the Ministers of the Crown, the corruptors ; to those who seduce, and. not those. who allow. themselves to be. seduced. But, all the thoughts of Geotlemen seem to turn .on - the rights of the_Ele4ed . , while they totally torget the rights of the. tle6lors. . (Same Gentlemex.here ..meffciofted for instance those of. Old Sarum.) Mr. tOOK a thanked them'for the hint ; ,he' had Old Sarum in his Mind at the time. He declarecl'he sat in the Hou§e as independent as any man in if. He had been returned unfatetecf by any'.cOndirions—he was _not even bound to take care of Old Sarum. The House might take it ' ' and thro w' it on the floor along with other Boroughs of the description if they pleased; he would not oppose it, and thus they , ivoulci get rid Of him at once.. Tootte was' proceeding to advert to the heavy penalties im posed 'by the Bill; as requiring some amendment, when The SPE AKRR asked him if he meant to propose any Amendment to the Preamble of the Bill, as the subtOs which he -was proceeding: to discuss, were entirely 'distina from the Preamble. • Mr. TOOKE said, he. was at a' loss what Amend ment to propose,• and expressed a wish that the Right Eon. Gentleman,, the 'mover of. the. Bill, would take upon biintelf, the task of proposing the Anieodinents, if what he had' said or might say, • convinced him of the. necessity of some being made. He had no wish to defeat the obje& of the Bill, but merely that it :should leave the House in as unex ceptionable a fOrin•as .possible. However, for form sake, he ;would' move an Amendinent to the Pre- ' amble, feeling no wish that it should be adopted.—r He then moved,: that the following Clause should be prefixed to the. Preamble: ."':'Whereas Persons in Holy Orders. ought not to be intangled with,Secular the ,office of the. Ministry being of 'so , great importance as to ocecupy the whole man, - and as appears from long emierience that such personi, by meddling, in temporal concerns, have occasioned great mischief iii .Church and state." This Modal* being read by the SOF AKE It, Mr. Tooxß Proceeded' to express a hope, that he would be excused for his Want' of Order. 'He had no wish that the Clergy should be admitted to sit in'thp House. He did not feel' much attachment to them ; at the same time, he did- not wish khem to' be treated With disrespe6l. He 'knew that many' of them are leatned and goad Men—he knew also, that there is a different Class of them, whci would belnore fitly employed' ingnaking Hobnails. . He had often`heard'of 'Casuists splitting hairs--,:but till he-heard it from the Right Hon..and Learned Gen tleman, he had never heard of splitting Sacraments. 'A very learned and eminent Casuist, he believed his name was Dr. Smallwood, undertook to explain the miracle of Christ's tasting Out the Devils from the , man:who was wandering among i the tombs, and send- ng • them among the - Herd-pfSwine. He found that there was a legionof these Devils. Hit first busi oess was to aacertaio What a legion wa s. He found that it was a Roman name for a body of men, the -cumber of which varied at differeot times. He took the number about the time , the miracle was, per formed. - All this said not require much learning, 4ri3e and,Alabie langoax ordcr number of Swjne . werc in a Hcr(l, in Ile then apPlicl his bkilt the portion of Devils ro Swint., and tl'e reSei was ; , chat there WaS about a Dtvil anti a half, ut a Devil arki three_quarters to each Hog. Ever after the learne'd Casuist was called.'Dr. Split Devil, ThiS wa3 splitting Devils ) and now he had heard Of _Fplitting Sacraments, . , The ~ STAKE-R. interrupted Mr. ToomE-by say.; ing, that be, conceived' the obsentitions , he was making; had, - ho .. cimilealmi with the Ame.ndthent moved. r ' .. - - , • , Mr. TOOKE said, he'would then reserve them • till the Motion be made for passing the Bill, and confine himself at present' to the grounds of the dif. ferent, Amendments he meant rci move. The Question on the Amendment was then puts Strangers were. ordeted to withiraw ; Mr. TooK,e and sonic others cklied . No, M; but Gentlemen.on the other side of the liotise'persisted ici enforcing the Order. - - The House sat for a considerable. time, but we were not re-admitted- to the Gallery., We under stood that the Amendment was negatived, and the Bill passed:-Adjourned till to-Morrow: From' the LONDON GAZETa i Hoy 19, 'Sol. 19 j reot The King has been pleased to grant the dignity of a Viseount of the United Kingdtim of Great Bri. tarn and 'lreland to the Right flohourable Horatio Baron Nelson, Kni t ;lit of the Most, Hohourable Order of the Bath, 'and Vice-Admiral of the Blue Squadron of His Majesty'y Fleet, and the 'Heiri Male of his Body lawfully begotten, by the Name, Style ! and Title of Viscotint Nelson of the Nile, and `of Rurnhain Thorpe, in the.C9unty of Norfolk. The King has.also . been pleased to• nominate and appoint Thomas Graves, Esq.,.Rear-Admiral of the White to be one of the' Knights Companions of the Most Honorable Order of the Bath, BANKRUPTS. William Chown, of Higham-Mills, .Northamtotonshire - miller, Attornies; Messrs. Nlaule and Sweeting, Hunting don. John Allgood, of Gloticesfer, mercer. Attorney, Mr. Williams, Sion.:College-Gardens, Aldermanbury. Daniel Rencher, Of Carey-lane, Wond-street, Ye!vet, ribbon and fancy hat-manufacturer. .Attorney i Mr. liee, Addle _, street, Wood-street. _ Henry bale, of Leeds, •Btaffordshire, grocer. Attornies, Messrs. Goodwin ) ; Ashborne ; or .Mcssrs. Barbor and Browne, Fetter-lane, London. , George Morville, of Lancaster, merchant. Attornies, Messrs. Mason and Wilson, Lancaster.. John Moorhouse ; the younger, of Boltoh-le-kloors, cotton.. mantlfaaurer. Attornies, Mr. _J. 1-lobraw, Bolton; or Mr. %Vindle, Bartlett's-Buildings, London. . D 11".(EiEN DS . Tune 30. G. Gowan, late of , Great Ormond-street, mer chant, at ten; at Guildhall. ;me 16, John Bnrford, of I lolborn-Bridge, London, linen.: draper, at ten, at Guildhall. rune 9. T. alifOrd and Charles Barrow, of the Strand, musical instrument-makers, at eleven, at Guildhall. ' , un: 9. T. Paine, bf Hounslow, butcher, at eLven, at •. :tine 9. H. Johnston, of Purley, Berks, nr!rchant, at ten, at Guildhall.. • • .' J...Sinith and S. Kin of Newgatc-street, Lundon, woollen-drapers, at eleven, at Guildhall: CERTIFICATES. 'une g.. G. Turner, late of Whittinghartl, Lancaster, con( n. manufacturer.: • Moses Eatlon, of Manchester, merchant: J. Fullwood, of Barbican, pawnbroker,' T 1-1 E SUN. SOLFM Quin DICEKL FnI.SUM AtiDLAT? LONDON, MAY 20, iBoi. Ir any thing could make'us more sensible of the great loss which this Country has sustained by the death of, Sir RALPH A•III{CRO'MIIT, and could at the same time add to the degree of consolation which his relations and his friends must derive from the ge. neralhornage of regret and admiration that is paid to his:memory, it mast be the manner in which those sentiments have been cxpeessed in Parliament, and particularly in the House of Commons by Mr. An. DINGTON. To obtain the, eulogium; and to ince ., Test. the sensibility of. the - : man whom his v irtues, his talents,.and the choice of his Sovereign, have placed in' the highest situation, is, doubtlliSs,' after s having served Country faithfully, the most ho. nourable and the most agreeable. reward 'which a Patriot Warrior could receive. In all ages it has been . the dignified office of Eloquence to bestow .pa *valour the Oaken 'or .the cypress crown, and it is thus that those who have been most famous for speaking, have descended to posterity with those most celebrated for afting. It is not, however, in this Jesped only that the %leech 'or Mr. Aoor moiox is remArkable, and while as a man he so well expressed the feelings of his heart, as a, Politician he, with po less ~ability and wisdom, confirmed the pledge which he had befors given to this Nation and to all Europe. It was gratifying to hear him repeat, after the "nacry gained by our Troops in Egypt,' the same inag rianimods declarations Which. he made after the triumph of our Fleet in the Baltic. To. have thus, on two occasions, so well calculami td insure every mind with the highest cpnrittiop our strength, and the greatest confidence in the fu ture, shewn the moderation of remainingiramot able - within the line which, irk a 6miicilt of felicity, he had chalked out, is to have . esc;ipeil nourably - from the 'greatest tp ‘%' , llicia a power is exposed : it is to have ptti,ed hiin La ally a Statesman, to have satisfied the'Colnary lie was' such a man as England, .and the