The Sun. — London, England, 1801-02-04 00:00:00

• ' IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS. TUESDAY, FEB. 3. The Afarpi.t of SALISBURY (Loan CHAMBERLAIN) acquaint,:d the House, that kiss MAJEs.i v had signified his pleasure to be waited on with their Lordships' Address at the usual lbaurto-morrow.at.St, James's. Several arrangements were made with resped to the lutaifing of Appeals, and other private business transacted. A BM was presented, and read a first tune, to dissolve the Marriage of G LO. TAYLOR, Esq. with CATHERINE his now Wite, and for'other purposes therein mentioned; and 4 „the proper °dicer from . Dodors Commons having presented to the House an attesteg Copy of the Proceedings to the Ecclesiastical Courts upon the cast, the Bill was ordered to be read a second.time that day fortnight. The Earl of Lo No roan,. one of the Irish Representa tive Peers, was.sworn, and took his scat. . Adjourned till .to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, FEJS: 3. A Petition from the Debtors in the Gaol at Leicester was presented, and ordered to be laid upon the Table.. Sit W. Docs Err moved that anew Writ be issued in the room of P. GOLOSwORTiIy, Esq. deceased. Mr. TIERNEY moved that there be laid before the House an Estimate of the total amount of the Taxes and Income of the Country to the sth of April, tSot ; also an account Of the Charges upon the Consolidated Fund from . the,st.h.l4n. isco, to. the stli lan. ilk ; also an Account of the number of Bank of England Notes in Circulation on art average of every month, from ,the sth of Oelober, 18eo,-distinguishing the number of such Notes under the amount sl.—Which were ordered accordingly. Mr. HORHOUSE moved that art account be laid before: the House, shewing what increase or diminution has taken place of all the Salaries, Emoluments, see. of .the Public Officers, for the year sßoo. • .The Committees Of Religion, justice, Trade, p, tivilcges, &c." were appointed, as is usual at the commencement ot a new Parliament., • The timerfor questioning the Returns of Members tnr — Gre'at Britain' was • appointed to be within fourteen dayS next, and so within 4 days after such returns have beat made; and that all persons being returned toe two places, shall make their Election within three weeks from the day of such . return. The SPEAKER then proceeded to read the usual stand ing Order, that it was a high . breach of the Privileges of the Commons of Great Britain for any LOrd of Puha-. ment, or Lord Lieutenant al a County to interfere in the Eleclion of Members to serve in the said House of Cony mans. The SraaKeit suggested; that in consequence of the Union, it would be proper, a ft er the word ' CoininOm," to add " of the -United Parliament of Great Britain and Ireland," which - Amendment was moved and agreed to. It was attetwards' proposed . , that after the words ." Lord Lteutdnunt of a County ,- in Great Britai;.," should be added, " as Governor ot•a County in Ireland." • Mr. BANKS Di) jeaed.to the Clause entirely, including " Lords Lieutenants of Counties," and moved, 'that these. words be omitted. This brought on a desultory conver sation, in which Mr: B tc L (an Irish Member,',' Mr. PiEitittrolwr, the Ma srra ot the ROLLS, Mr. I'LL HAM, and Mx. N torso t.z.s severally spoke, after which it was moved and agreed to, that the Debate be adjourned to Friday next. • - S The other usual standing Orders were then read:and agreed to. Mr. BRAGGE moved, that - a Committee be appointed to take into consideration what additional Orders and ne cessary Regulations it may be proper tomake relative to the proceedings of this House, inconsequence of the Union betwixt Great Britain and Ireland, and that they report their opinion from time 4 tide to the Hciuse. A Cont. trainee was appointed accordingly, consistiO of about au ~..CCILI4I number of English and Insh Members. err w . Itriyoßt. W IVIVf Dr OF Turou ADreavegnt up t .l he Report . of-the - Ad;; . ess, Which being read by the Clerk, and_on the Motion: that the said Address be read a second time, !fir. JON ES said; 'that he had last night given a silent vole for the Amendment ; he hoped therefore that it would not be deemed • improper if he offered a few observations on an Address proNsed talks MA) ESIY in this hour of peril. With' respect to the Union with Ire land, however inimical he had been to that men. sure, there was no one who more wished than he did, that it might conduce to the' - consolidated interests of the Empire ; but be could not help • entertaining doubts i upon the subjdt. —He • was afraid that it . ,might occasion divisions in more ways than one. if report spoke true, it had been whispered that there had. been already- a .division of sentiment in. the. Ca binet Council with respdt to the Emancipation of the Irish Catholics.' On that .part of the Address, which related to the dispute 'with the Northern Powers, on the subjea of the Mari._ time Law, he agreed with the Honourable Mover of the Amendment, that'we ought first precise.. —ly- to ascertain that Right; as-well' as the exak diency of going to ,War upon that question.--- • With rtspett to the additional burdens to be im ' posed on the People, he would only say that the People could not bear them - much. longer. They had obtained no effeetual reduetion of the in creased price of Provisions, and in super-addi tion to this; 'they were now reduced to eat what has not hitherto been' the common food of the Country. He also obJeled to this Address, be- cause it breathed de6nce and war to be carried , on in a more extended manner than ever. In its 'tendency, it would serve to recreate the French Marine; and increase the growing calamities of the. Country. Colongl MARTIN (an Irish Member) said, that he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman in wish - ing that the Irish Union might promote the con solidated interests of the Empire ; but lie t4ought that, with this _.exception, all that the Hon. Gentleiman had said on this part of the subje6, was but little calculated to that end, He begged to know upon what ground the Hon. Gentleman prophesied that this Union would not lend to the interests of the two Countries.—,-Prophecies were generally uttered with an ex Ration of their tulfilment,—With respeft to the 'Roman Catho lics of Ireland, he would assure the Hon. Gen tleman, that whatever invitation ,night he held out to,that Body, by those on the opposite side of the House, they would feel but little induced to'attertd to any such invitation. He knew that the Irish Catholics were determined to abide by whatever thrGovernment of the Country thought fit to grant them. He hoped that when the Hon. Gentleman, in' future, pronounced a panegyric upon thelinion, it would lie accompanied with something more relevant to his professions. Mr. Jonas explained. Mr. BANKS said, he ha&carefully listened to the Debate of last night, and that, in some re. speets, he held sentiments different froth the Speakers on both sides. With regat4 to the Non. Mover of the Amendment, he was stir. prized that he ,shoulshbave entertained any doubts on theisUbjeCt of our Maritime Right; and if he alloWed the right, that he should have questioned whether it ought tube maintained. The revival of this disputed claim,, on the part of the Neu- Aral Powers, loudly called upon this Country to establish what we had always considered as our right. The Arnied Neutrality now set on foot, was evidently direded against, this Country.— But he must, at-the same time say, that he felt a disappointment as to one part of His Majesty's, Speech,' for since, such various disappointments' had taken place in the late events of the 'War, he' did expel that the Speech would have announced some attempt to enter upon a dired Negotiation with France ; and he was much afraid, that His Majesty's Ministers would have to lament that They had not taken such a step. When the late Negotiation, carried on through M. Qrro,. was broken off', be presumed that it was owing to the idea of our Government as to the good faith which ought to be entertained with our, Allies ; but. Austria having since then. been obliged, through unforeseen circumstances, to conclude an Armistice, and enter upon a 'separate Treaty, this Country seemed to be now more than ever , called upon to pursue a line of pacific condu't, and' enter upon overtures for Peace. An alarming storm was gathering in the North, and a new Confederacy forming against us; sound policy, therefore, required ua to get rid of our old Enemy, before we attempted to grapple with now ones, r - - -But it might be said, this was not the . moment for making such an attempt, for that the pretensions of the Enemy would rise in pro-. portion ;to' the additional force direded against this Countrys This might be so far true ; but - as our danger increased, was it not to be expetted that greater sacrifices must be made when we saw additional Armaments fitting out against us ? But upon what ground did Gentlemen assume, that France would not now come into reasonable terms of accommodation ? In the last letter of ..M-s--0,1 - ro there was an express declaration that 'die Chief Consul would be ready, at any future time, to enter upon 'a separate Treaty with this Country:. Not that he placed implicit reliance on the declarations of France : But why not hear. it from France herself, whether she would, or would. -not adhere to her own pacific declarations ? Our Allies had now left us to fight alone. There was no one who now supposed that we_were fighting with, France at• the present moment for any other. put. pose than because we could not make peace with her. There was certainly now no other objed which could be had in view but that of corning out of the contest upon fair terms. In nothing had we been more disappointed than in the dispo., sition and views both of our, friends and foes. Thus, how could we be sure that the disposition of 'the First Consul might not now he in faCOur of a general Peace. ? It was true, he saw plau sible argument in this ; and yet, possibly there Might be other motives to operate, upon his mind, or some of the leading men of France to ••••r,a,o) kt Uti 11 LAC 'tope or oet rain our condition, by continuing the War with a fresh host of Enemies raised up against us. That France, on this account, would require afferent Terms of Peace, had been assumed by Ministers ; but what he must contend for was, that we ought rather to have heard this from France herself—. and he deeply lamented it, that His, Majesty's Ministers had 'not drawn it expressly from the French Rulers. In the prosped of an extended con. test with the Northern Powers, and considering the uncertainties of War, he knew not what great er probability there was, that we should embark with more reasonable hopes of success against the arsenals of the North, than in the attempts we had made so unsuccessfully against Holland, Cadiz, Ferrol, &c. Were we sure of the extent and num ber of the Enemies that were rising up against u 3 ? Were we secure with regard to Prussia, or even as to Portugal ? But, though On all these accounts he wished no delay in making an at tempt at Peace, yet he confessed that he was not Sanguine in his expedations of success. France might possibly rise in her pretensioni, in proportion to the increase of our difficulties .and dangers ; but still he considered it 'a desitahle attempt to know on what terms she was disposed to treat, and whether she was willing to accede to or de part from her late declarations ? The want of success in firmer attempts At Negotiation ought to form. no bar in the way of 'our making fresh Overtures ; and should the attempt prove imprac ticable, from the inordinate ambition of the Ene my, we should at least stand excused in the sight of Europe fer continuing the contest, and refute the insinuations of the Enemy, that it was Bri. tish gold and British contest that kept the flames of War alive. . • The-SECRETARY at WAR said, it would be naturally expected that he should say some thing on the subjeit matter of debate now before . the House, and yet he was afraid he had hardly, any thii4 to say that might he deemed &ids; faitory ; not because the subject in debate was not important, for it was abundantly so, but be. , cause the speech of the linn..Gentleman who had just spoken, did not oppose the Address, and yet contained some points which naturally called for some answer. That speech had proceeded on a state of things, and the opinion he entertain ed of the conduit which he supposed Administra_ tion to have pursued, and also on the Judgment which that Hon. Gentleman had formed of that conduit, and his sentiment as to what that con. duet ought to be. Now, said Mr. WIgDHAM, " that Honourable Gentleman, indeed, ,my Hon. Friend, I take leave to call him, must see it is impossible for me to say any thing on that sub_ jets one way or the other. I be* leave to say, I neither mean to convey any opinion, or informs.. don on what has been the conduit of Administra don; on the subject he alludes to, or what is their conduit now, or what ought to have been their conduit ; because, if there is any one thing which more than another, if there be any point which requires more delicacy, and more care and oaution, as to what should be ,said, or what should not be said, or that requires more judg. ment, than any other ; if tbere be any one thigh '.!!k:h require; ptcnliarly more delicacy th,th th.it of any other subject, but above. hat : '''segaires more secrecy than that of ati'k citheiubji-a ; it is during a time of War,' . the steps taken byt(a . 'oyernment for a Negotiation for Peace. Motions have been aide upon that subject, calling for the interposition of Parlia ment, and whenever such a Motion is likely to be useful, I think - the best shape in Wild) it can come, is that of an Address to the Throne for the dismissal of, His Majesty's Ministers,• be cause to that °hie& they all tend, although they differ a little now and then in their outward • shape, and have some variety of colour and shade, Generally speaking,, however,. there is no subjeCt which requires more extent of in formation, delicacy of touching, or more vari ety of means, than that of Negotiation for Peace ; nor even, is it necessary that these ad vantages should be possessed by those - who would ael, but even those who would talk to advantage on that subjea. Who should take the first step towards 'negotiation What particular circum- . .stances of One country should make it either take the first step, or wait for another to do so, and many other points better all alluded to than de--' scanted upon, are points of the most delicate con sideration, •and require the most diligent applica tion of the:best talents that a State has at any time in its service. The Honourable Gentleman, when he wishes to provoke a dis cussion upon that subject, must be aware that he is calling for that on which he • can possess at best but very imperfect Materials for consideration ; he must .be aware also, that the subjea is one on which Ministers must ne cessarily be silent : he is therefore combati ng, _ in a great degree, upon a very diffi c ult task, al- . though liels without an adversary'. - I must be allowed to protest against any inference he can draw in such a situation. There are no circum stances before that Hon. Gentleman by which be can infer that no steps have been taken for Ne gotiation ; nor' any to make him infer that any steps have been taken, or when-or how they may be taken. It must be obvious if such steps be . taken, they require,. for the success of them, that they should remain secret until some pro gress is made in them. Now---I beg leave to • say, that I give no information, either the one' way or the other, upon this subject : I only oh. serve, that the Hon. Gentleman has been speak ing, in this particular, on fads which have been assumed by himself. He must infallibly be-very much iii the dark ; and as I am not' supposed to be so much in the dark upon that subje6l, I can only say, I think I should ill perform my duty it' I were to discover any thing 'whatever on this matter at the present moment... I think' nothing of this kind ought to be discovered by any Branch of Executive Government : I think alio, the Meuse will - not feel that I: assume too much, by utterly disclaiming all the force of reasoning, which is founded upon assumed fads. All that can .regu lady he said is, - that this country is at petted liberty, by its declarations, to oven 4..Nevotia /tun Witt/ l , .thee, 11 It sees a necessity, for so doing. France is also at perfeCt liberty to begin. a Negotiation with us, if she thinks proper So' to do, _ . But I do not say whether any such Ne gotiation has or has not been -begun, or pro posed on either side ; nor do 1 say any thing of any reason whiCh may have determined .His Majesty's Governinent either one 'way or the other upon that . subject. cannot, however, help adverting a little to what 'the' Honourable Gentleman has said, and. to 'observe by the way, that he wok upon himself the exercise of the funetions, of Executive Government, and that without good means to exercise his faculties. Every Member of this House. is at liberty to do so, if he thinks fir. Those who are hostile to , Ministers, who think meanly of their judgment, very naturally consider topics of - . Negotiation for Peace very -proper objetls of 'Motion in this House; of which the tendency is, to take. the afiltirs of Government out of the hands of Ministers, and to place them elsewhere. But I should 'have thought that my Hon. Friend would have given us the credit for knowing what we were doing ;, especially when he must feel that at all events, .his own information is veryln }levied on the subjet on which he has been speak ing, instead of supposing a' course, as he has done, and then assuming that Ministers have pursued it. • --Perhaps. it. is 'not very . necessary, but I can not help recommending to him, as- well : as to others, a little distrust of their own judg ments upon these subjects, 'because', they cannot possess the information which is necessary to farming a compleat understanding of it. The Hon. Gentleman says, he admits to the fullest extent, the Rights elaiined on the part of this Country, in the case now immediately before us, and he states the opinion of the House on the claims of the Confederate PoiVers. ;tic says also, that the question is of too much importance to be given up, and•that France "is a party that is fomenting the Northern-Powers to a'quarrel with' us, which I believe to he true ;—why then it is rather odd, that in such a state of things, the Con. federate Powers claiming what cannot he allowed, and France having joined -them in that unjust claim, that such a moment shouldbe.chosen by the Hon. Gentleman to make the observations we have heard from him to-night ; and that we, on the very moment bn which, for any thing he can know to the contrary, there may be a Negotia tion going on, but of which I beg to be under stood again as not saying one word, one way or the other. If France is endeavouring-to support the Confederates in this claim; and they proceed on that assumption'; until:the Councils of these Confederates be changed, every thing they ad vise that is to drat us, must be nugatory. The Hon. Gentleman observed a good deal upon a to pic, on which I would say a word or two ; which was, .on the propriety of the Ministers of this Country making Overtures for Peace, which they knew would not be accepted-7-That there may,be.pos.sibly a given state.of things t in which such a course should be taken, .1 will not deny, -but it is on the face of it a very undignified'mode of proceeding, and one to which I should be very unwilling to consent : besides, who is it to 611. ? It Would not satisfy the Nom Gentlemin, nor, I presume, many of the Members of this t a ; House, so that I think the step, if taken, would not be very effedual—nor do I think it would be. wise, for it would bring into question the pacific dispositions of Government, a term which, by the bye, is a little vague, because •a pacific (Hs position must, and ought to, depend upon the terms on which you indulge it : Bur, however, the prastice alluded to by - the Hon. Gentleman, would call in ltiestion the future sincerity of its followers, and be unfavourable to the character of Government,- and which, my Hon. Friend will alloW, ought to be interesting to the Country at large.—This would not satisfy any intelligent man at home—lt would not satisfy the Enemy ; why then, the only purpose to which it can be applied, - is to do . what is called satisfying the Country.—Now, I cannot think this a policy very dignified, nor such as I should wish to pursue s because it is at best only 'giving temporary way to clamour, and producing nothing—and that to the knowledge of those - who aft in it ; that I consider as a species of popular delusion which is discreditable to those who are concerned in it, besides,' we must not suppose that if these shifts produce no good they will cause do harm ; there are nb such expedients, or if there be any, they are very few which produce neither good nor harm in the affairs of States ; and doing a thing to produce what it called an Impression, if that be a false impression, is, in my opinion, re. ry bad policy ; nothing should be adopted but • that which is for the general and permanent iu terests of a country And here again the Ho nourable Gentleman assumes much knowledge of what has been passing in the minds of Ministers he says they must have meant this, .or that ; to which propositions I cannot assent, although lie is so /good .as to leod them to me, for they arc defective in thatsehieli should be the foundatioti of a propositi - on, namely, the knowledge of the thing. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeds to an. other topic,and all edgei the t some ex peaatioes haKo been.hcld.out on the. subject of this War aud_. of • the conclusion of Peace, and he talks of a disap pointtnent..ie that respeci. Whether.he applies it.in general to Administration, or to himself, I know not, but I confess I ant not , one . of those whose expedatiens have been disappointed. I never thought the contest in which we are now engaged, was a business which could be soon dispatched,—My wishes and.rny hopes have in deed been sanguine, and so then are still ; but wishes and hopes arc things very distinct from ex peaation ; all that any man can sav upon this sub. jed, as I apprehend it, is, that with all, the inconve nieneies we suffer, qv( are Letter girby the War tban eve shottld have. : beet, by Yeace.—Thai though our sufferings are'. numerous and great, they would have been much greater- if this .War had not taken place, that-is all the expedation I ever had ciorn this War ; I thought so previous to its cillho:ltamytemhte):7lhnntpe commencedca(t: d h als sooner a oo s nte o ra t . l o cha p :li i ,t i li lt i o ti o r, it o and all ught to s w te a d s, never thought that we should be better off after • the War than we were before it, that is not the way to view the matter ; the question is, what would our situation have been, if we had not had the War ? The Hon. Gentleman seems to inia gine that I hold out a hope, that by the prosecu. tion of the War, we shall better our conditipn. That is not an opinion I ever entertained ; the hopes of a State in War are_ not to better its conditiOn, , but to prevent its condi... lion, as much as possible, from becoming worse, So in this case, you are not going to war with the Northern . Powers to better your condition, but to . preserve what is to be, considered as the Ma. rime strength of your Country, whiche in a political sense, is synomirious with the existence of your Country. - NoW, I say again, that. I hope, the Hon. Gentleman, upon reflection, will _agree with me, that he is not ir" possession of materials enough to form an accurate opinion on these topics. When a Gentle Man throws out his ithjudgment,m,ent, and sets it off against the judgment of who, although not better qUalf6ed in themselves, than he • is, yet, in virtue of their situation, have better 'means of judging than he has, I, think it but right to say, he would do - tvell to consider again what confi dente he (might to repose in his own judgment, made up, as-it must be, of materials so very de. • fedive, before' he ventures to endeavour to afFeft the jusigmens.of others.- _Lwill.say no More, than that neither the Hon. Gentleman, nor any other who - does not form a part of-Adtninistration, can judge, accurately, at present, on some of the to pics brought forward by the -Hon, Gentleman ; nor is this the season in which they should be ex plained by the Executive Government. Arr. NIC HOLS professed great respell for the Honourable Gentleman .who-spoke last but • one, _both. for -his, -talents and his virtue, al. thotigh he had seldom- the good. fortune to agree with him in political . sublets. lie ex. pressed great concern at hearing soniething, as if the Catholics in Ireland were 'not to have those advantages from the Union, a prosped of which Made him chiefly vote for it... He should have • been much pleascti to have found some assurances to that effed in His Majesty's Speech.. He took a view of the question in dispute between us ,and the Northern Powers; upon the Right of., Search and our - Maritime Superiority. He considered the point as lather doubtful, than clear, as to the Right, for that the Sovereignty of the Seas was more referable to our strength than to any rule of Jets. tice ; 'and that the Lacy of Nations had no partiality to any particular State, but was a code to regulate them all, always having a greater regard 'to Neu . . tral than to Belligerent States; however he gave no opinion upon that subject.--He - t9ok, notice ,c:of the expressions of theSecretarY at ar - , aini maintain. ed that it was manifest from that as well as from every speech lie made, he should never - wish for Peace until the. Old Government ot. France was restored ; and - he thought 'that the observation he made on t he insincerity of peopesing vh . a . t . a -Minister knew would not be accepted, came with an ill:grace froM that'Rt. Flom Gent.--He tained also that the King's Speech, which he edif. sidered as the Speech 01 the Ministers, held out to 4 1IN $ ,