The Sun. — London, England, 1853-07-26 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS. SUCCESSION DUTY BILL. HOUSE OF LORDS.—JULY 25. MAJORITY AGAINST LORD DERBY'S AMENDMENT ON SECOND CLAUSE OF SUCCESSION DIM' BILL. Lord Chancellor Galloway Broughton Axchbishop of York Granville Byron A DUKE& Glasgow Blantyre xgri Harrowby Camoys Atholl Haddington Churchill theetench Home Colborne Leed s Ilchester Cremorue Newcastle Kenmore Cowley Norfolk Kintore De Tabley Roxburgh, Lucan Dacre Wellington Romney Dufferin • maxQmsEs. Somers Erskine B readalbane Scarborough Liphinstone eamden ' Spencer Foley Donegal St. Germans Gardner Ileadfort Uxbridge liatherton Mi'alley Wicklow Howden Lansoowne Yarborough X eanc OrnlOnde vIscOUNTS. Kirmaird Slig o Canning Leigh EARLS. Enfield Lillord Aberdeen Falmouth Lettelton Albetnarle Ilardinge Manners Ilessbor oug h Ma,sareenc Moason ce Rru Syd,ev Overstone Burlingt on Torrington Toltimore Chichester BLSIIOII. Portman Clarendon Hereford Panninre Craven Llandaff Rivers C lanwilliam lidoi,coe.ter Saye and Seale Devon Dude Norwich Stanley of Alderley b urham Oxford Suffield Salisbury Truro E..M R7 hani BARONS. Wharncliffe, ' 11 4411 Ashburton Wodebouse R erttscue Beaumont Wrottesley MINOEI TY. DU KES Cleveland * Montrose Bath MARQuisEs, bownshire Exeter islisbury A YleSfOrd EARIAL Beauchamp Bathurst Cazdiga n Clan carty bela wur Defttnohih ,by . ""° ll gbm ore "le/lisegodlen I t i ardwicke R t uaingdon 1. 4 "OOd. en Longford Lonsdale Macclesflerd Malmesbury Manvers Mayo Mornington Orford Orkney Powis Rosso Sandwich Selkirk Strad broke Talbot Verulsm Wilton Winchdsca Alvanley Bostcn Bateman Berners Caithorpe Clarina Colchester Colville Crofton De Bos Downes Dynevor Grantley Hastings rolworth Ray tete h Redesdale Sandys Southampton Sondes VISCOVNTS. Ca , tlemaine Gage Ilerefori Strangford BAIONS. Abinger St. Leonards Tenterdon Walelngham Wynford Boward de g.,bulham Bh h Walden, Lord :" op Yughasn. . sed ford, Duke Marquis C ou llanby, Marquis ° "berY, Earl ~ ,- - uperdo wn, Earl Crepe, Lord Lord ' re. we, Lord A irit ufilesev, Marquis e, tart ilterick, Bishop e "Per, Earl art de Decies, Lord 7eldock, Lord tovat, Lord "'Mex, Earl Canterbury, Viscount ~-auterbury, Archbishop ''''icester, Earl tt•tall'ord, Earl Anatol, Marquis Zporl, Earl ( 7 11 don Bishop Baunr, Earl rfolk, Earl Clare, Earl Vlckland, Lord , 'onshire, Duke urafton, Duke 84de leY. Lord .rethuen Lord ugham, Lord no land, Lord 4 ag, lan, Lo r d De Mauley, Lord Abercorn, Marquis Ward, Lord }l,z hardinge, Earl ward, Lord PAMS. Chesterfield, Earl Bradford, Earl Rayniug, Lord St. John, Lord Grey, Lord Faversham, Lord Eglinton, Earl Desart, Earl Combermere, Lord Cadogan, Earl Exmouth. Viscount Tuam, Bishop Hawarden, Viscount Richmond, Duke St. Vincent, Earl Erne, Earl Ely, Marquis Jersey, Earl Canterbury, Viscount Beaufort, Duke Bandon, Earl Crawford, Earl Saltoun. Lord Rochester, Bishop Tankerville, Earl Waterford, Marquis Sinclair, Lord Templemore, Lord Strathmore, Lord Lyndhurst, Lord Digb3-, Earl Kinnoull, Earl Manchester, Duke Buckingham, Duko Hamilton, Duke Drogheda, Marquis Pomfret, Earl Roden, Earl Orkney, Earl Forester, Lord Grantley, Lord HOUSE OF COMMONS.-JULY 25. ( Prom the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.) - STAMP DUTIES (No. 2) BILL. C lan% 3 (Duties on Newspapers and Supplements) : Question put, " That the clause stand part of the Bill :" —The Committee divided ; Ayes 92, Noes 40. MAJORITY-AYES 92. Baines, M. T. Goodman. Sir G. Palmer, RoundelB all, b .all, John. Gould, W. Palmerston, Viscount Bell, James Graham. Sir James Peel, F. Bland, L. Greene. J. Pellatt , A Bonham -Carter, J. Grenfell, C. Pete., S. Bower, G. .. °revile, Colonel F. Phinipps, J. 11. Boyle, Hon. Colonel Hall, Sir Benjamin Philtimore, Rob. J. Brady, J. Hustle, Archibald Pigott, F. Bruce, Lord E. Herbert, Sidney Pilkington. James Bruce, H. A. Hervey. Lord A. Pollard-Urquhart, W. Butler, Charles S. Howard, W. G. Ricardo, 0. Cardwell, lion. E. Howard, Lord E. Russell. F. C. Cayley, E. S. Johnstone, James Sadleir. John Challis, Alderman Kennedy, Tristram Sandars, G.. Cockburn, Sir Al Keogh, William Sawle, C. B. G. Cowper, W. Kingscote, B. N. F. Scobell, Captain Craufurd, E. H. J Kinnaird, A. F. Scully, F. Duffy, C. G. Locke, J. Scully, V. Dunlop, A. Lucas, F. Seymour, H. K. Elcho, Lard M'Cann, J. Seymour, Lord Eamonde, J. Maenire, J. F. Struts, lit. Hon. E. b_wart, William 11l iall, Edward Stuart, Lord Dudley l' Ver alien n , William Mills, T. Sullivan, M. son, Sir Robert Moles worth. Sir W. Thornely, Thomas Pit, •• , —toy , h enry Monck, Lord Vernon.O. E. H. "uter, V o , 1, —. 31 ousel!, William Wilkinson, W. A. it. It 3lostyn. E. M. Wilson, James tletkstun, Colonel Mitre. Col. Young, Sir J. Charles Murrough. J. F. (tab. 40_ r tone, William Norreys, Sir D. Co v pi, Captainunt O''CB Orien, I'. 44 - 1 3 e, Viscoonnell, D. MINORITY—NOES, 40. 4 %0 .111. 0 ,eY, C. Galway. Viscount Michell, W. 4,7414 Captain Goa., W. Mullings, J. R. lii i i",, ,, gton, Viscount Grogan, Edward Newport, Viscount 1i,,, k , Colonel Hamilton, Lord C. North, Colonel 1., •er, T. W. Hamilton, J. Hans Packenham. E. ,IRuti, Sir R. Hayes, Sir E. Stanhope, James B. I ' ,l llbur,, Lim, Lord Arthur E. Tyler, Sir George ~titit, ''' W. ' , ltiririq . i. Hume. W. F. , Vansittart, G. H. eli "" ". M i Calmont Jolliffe, Sir W. S. H. Verner, Sir W. live n . Jones, Capt. Williams, T. P. tI I Y, Thom as Lewisham, Visc. " , J Du • Liddell, H. G. , nu" , .14 acartney. G. ,',oloe, Colonel xruw,„ C . Manners, Lord J. —. '. ll - Maxwell, James P. TELLERS. Hayter, Hon. W. Berkeley Grenville TELL/MI. Newdegate, C. N. Spooner, R. GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. V_lse (That the said Secret Committee shall transmit to ue Sueme Government in India all orders of the said President of the Boas d of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, as by the law is now required as to orders e manating from the said President, except that if the 'mid Secret Committee shall think fit, they may tender their advice and opinion on the effect of any such order or orders, and if they deem it expedient may enter a pro test in writing as to the effect of such order and orders, and that such protests shall be duly recorded at the office of the said Secret Committee, and also at the office of the said President, but nothing in this act shall be con strued in any way to interfere with the power of the Said President to issue any order or orders that he may think fit to direct shall be transmitted through the said Secret Committee)—brought up awl read the first time : Motion made, and Question put, " That the said clause be now read a second time :"—The Committee divided ; Ayes 30, Noes 72. MINORITY—AYES 30. Anderson, Sir James Hawkins, William Peliatt, Apsley, .AsPinall, .J Hume, J. Rich, H. IsMi, Edward Johnstone, James Seymer, H. D. 'lens James ackett, J. F. B. Riggs, William , ir F d , , Arthur F. Stanley, Lord Til L ockhart, A. E. ICl Ln n as a Williams, W. Etru..e, 11. A. Wise, A. Crook, A J, Maguire, John F. Dunlop, A. Mita', E. Ewan, William Milner, R. M. Gooderich, Vis. Murrough, J. P. Greene, J ohn Newdegate, C. Oakes, J. TELLERS. Willoughby, H. B Mangles, B. D. MAJORITY—NOES, 72. Aeland, si r T. Forster, J. lchell, W. bathes M „, Fox, W. J. Totesworth, Sir W. 13 13, etheij , sir4filchard Gladstone, William O'Brien, C. OW, Loftus H. Goderich, Viscount O'Connell, D. )I* ° "e, Valentine Goodman, Sir George Palmerston, Viscount Claw, Charles S. Graham. Sir Jas. Peel Frederick Cell, Edward Gregson, Samuel Pi;ott, Francis anis Hadfield. G. Cip it 'Alderman Russell, Lord John ,otkz 'tuber t Herbert, Sidney Sadler, J. e u lUn gi A. Hervey, Lord Alfred Sawle, C. B. G. I ' l ,, lll w ri, W' r Higgins, G. 0. 0. Smlth, M. Tucker I ) Qt re a r ' William nogg, Sir James W. Smith, R. V is'unutla,. lngha m, B. Stratt, E. +ick, - "g,VI t Kendall, Nicholas Thompson, G. , vorth _ see= Kirk, Witham Thornely. T. ... u ulas ;,,, it J. Vernon, G. zleh o. ; • Langston , j ' IL Wells, W. Elliot ,r/, (1 Langton, H. G. Wickham, 11. W 84101 I 'd • ''' Laslett, W. Wilkinson, W. A. a gat,. ,;.Joh n Lee, W, Wilson, James ?Olden M• Lowe, Hobert Wood, Sir C. rerz wf ,',,—• Wee= James ' J a mes Young, Sir John l'itz -"' Joseph Macgregor, TELLEas. ritLr" al d , J. „ sir J. marjoribanks , D• Hayter. W. G. v 4 orst-3el', Charles Mills, Tho l ion. 11. Masterman, John Berkeley, Grenville mas _____........ DEST RUCTION OF. A SHIP AT SEA BY FIRE. which ar- LIVERPOOL, Monday.— The ship 7th inst. ritovtealil here this morning, has brought Ebene zer,intellignce of the destruction by fire of the ship I. Z. on t he in lat. 42 , 10ng . 9 The I. Z. sailed from for of or this port, on the 2d inst., under the commandthe Ca ptain Spencer, with 20 hands on board, inclu ding New York, captain, all of whom were taken off and landed here by the Ebenezer, from New York. She was an American built ship, belonging to Messrs. Zeraga, of New York , registeredre 756 tons, and her cargo consisted principal ly turpentine, flour, and cotton. Nev York, which arrived here this morning, and who vitnessed the fire in the vessel, gave the following rep or , , to the und erwr it er s' room :—" On Thursday, mY 7, in lat. 4T, long. 60, at 3 30 p.m., I observed a sinokt, which at first I supposed to be that of a stea mer ; but thinkirr, it strange to fall in with a st eamer in the above position, and observing something tnusts in the appearance of the smoke, took my glass and went aloft, when I at once discovered her to b e a vessel on fire. Immediately took in all steering sails and mad 3 for the wreck, with a good look-out at the masthead for her boats. Upon nearing the wreck We observed )ter long boat about a mile to windward of her, and steered for it. We passed within 20 feet of her, and foundher in good order ; no one in her, and the oars and moveable articles gone. We then bore away for the w rec k, an d at 5.15 p.m. passed under the stern of the )urning vessel, and found her to be the I. Z., from New York to Liverpool. She was burning fore and aft, upper works burned off, decks fallen in. The flames were breaking through the stern, and a part of the letter 'I. was consumed at the moment of pas sing. At the same time a sail was observed from aloft a considerable distance to the eastward (likely the Ebenezer), which probably picked up her crew, as I am well satisfied they were nowhere in the vicinity of the Wreck at the time of our leaving it." The fire has been stated to have been caused by spon- Llama! combustion,- ENTALS. 7 i %I 3h 3 l a 35 .ab°" 19,i sl` 7 1 pelf x d,o ILloTi/ 1A Y.) 3tions oat are )wt. ft e 'll 6 lumps• fp .t ek at 00,50 erces, 2 0 10 6 imption Le same P tity a not 0 , ion is et 0 3 the East There N"' o% , lds 0° 3 , 0 0 am . : pito— - - i, , 0 old at -1-`" --- 1 s 6d for A 4 it 398 to 61E' cwt. on air deni°cll os ; clla .4s per 09 8s ; cl 3 s per • f eto 5s ; c 4" A d , 55 perlo to 1,0 151 d Y e° CO s. 0? btr te , irole e d Arril g ttb , Cale° f f rOr to t e r A rri° „ SOZ,i/ SAP t ut 11/ 9O°l CoVt i f I Bat ter, Ba% 00' d ir e r —Bl l ' ' .Fan ny ' _- Tb e • 00 P i1" 130 , tlog , ra ka t ° ° ge fro.- D, a A - rB BDge 79 i Business this day. 151 k d lon 8 31 31 IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on the woolsack at 5 o'clock. Lord COLVILLE presented petitions from Scotland in favour of the Public-houses (Scotland) Bill. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Glas gow in favour of the abolition of arrestment of wages for debt. Lord DERBY presented a petition from Glasgow in favour of the Public-houses (Scotland) Bill. SUMMARY JURISDICTION BILL. On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE this bill passed through committee. PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of the Marquis of CLANRICARDE, this bill also passed through committee. SUCCESSIONS DUTY BILL, On the motion for going into committee on this bill, Lord ST. LEONARD'S (who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery), said, he was anxious that their lord ships should have a general view of the object and parti cular operation of this bill, and he should therefore take the liberty of shortly stating what he apprehended would he its operation. He had heard the noble earl at the head of the Government speak of this measure as a popular measure; but he could not admit that to be a justifiable assertion, although the noble earl might have said that it was not an unpopular one. The assertion that it was a popular measure was founded on the fact that no petition had been presented against it ; but he believed that the reason that there had been no petition was, that the mea sure was of such a nature that it did not excite individual opposition. If it were wanted to discover the general feeling as to any tax, it was done simply by placing the tax directly upon persons ; but, as the present measure fell immediately upon no one, it was no one's business to oppose it, and that was the reason why no petition bad been presented against it. Another reason was, that the present bill was one which was by no means understood by the generality of mankind ; in fact, it required not merely an attorney, but a very good attorney, to explain its provisions, and he thought it would be very unsafe for a man when hit by the operation of this measure not to have a competent adviser at his side. He could confi dently assert from his own experience and knowledge of such matters, that when the present measure came into operation, no man could live without having almost constantly a legal adviser at his elbow. It had been said that the principle of this measure had been admitted ; but the fact was, that noble lords on his side of the house had had no opportunity of opposing it, and he would now call upon their lordships to consider what the operation of this bill really would be. This was not a party question. (Ironical cheers from the Ministerial side, and counter-cheering from the Opposition.) He would repeat that this was not a party question. (Loud and renewed cheering.) He spoke from his heart, and with the firmest belief that this was a measure which, if passed, would eventually be deplored by every noble lord who then heard him ; and he would remind the noble lords opposite who cheered that the bill was one which would at some period probably punish some of them, and, when it did, they would remember his warning ; but then he was convinced that they would not attribute the course which he felt bound to adopt to the influence of party feeling. (Hear, hear.) He was at a loss to know why such a measure had been introduced, for it had not been shown, and he fully believed it could not be shown, that any necessity existed for its introduction. (Hear, hear.) He felt very strongly, and spoke strongly on this subject ; but he hoped that nothing that might fall from him would be construed into anything like want of respect for the noble earl oppo site. (Hear, hear.) He would ask their lordships to con sider what was the pretence on which this bill was brought forward. It was said that real property should be subject to the same charges as personal property. Now, that prin ciple he was fully willing to admit was a just one, and it was generally admitted, but the noble earl near him (Earl Derby) had shown that, in point of fact, real estate was already more heavily charged than personal estate. (Hear, hear.) He would ask their lordships to consider the case of the land tax, which was paid entirely by the landed in terest, and to which no equivalent tax was levied upon the owner of personalty. The difficulties in the way of levying such a tax would be insurmountable. No man would endure inquiry being made as to how much ready money he possessed, what money was owing to him, and what were his liabilities ; and he would urge upon the noble earl at the head of the Government that some such feeling would attend the operation of the present measure. He and noble lords who sat on that side of the house did not in the least dispute the justice of placing real estate on the same footing as personal estate, but to enact that real estate inherited should be subject to the same duty as per sonalty, without refereuce of any kind to the extensive burdens thrown exclusively upon real estate, was not putting tho two descriptions of property on the same foot ing. (Hear, hear.) The Government, however, did not stop there, for they said, "If you place the same duty upon real as upon personal property, inherited by descent or demise, why exclude settlements ?" He could only say that no Minister had hitherto dared to bring forward a proposal for levying a duty upon settlements. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt, in the plentitude of his power, in the midst of a general European war, at a time when men were willing to endure almost any sacrifice in order that the honour and dignity of the country might not be im paired, never dared to ask for what the present Govern ment, without any necessity, and in time of peace, ven tured to propose. Mr. Pitt had excluded all duty on settlements in the measures of finance which he proposed, and he could not but consider that the present Govern ment were liable to be charged with temerity for adopting a different course. It was, in his opinion, by an ex post facto law to take away from a man that which, although he had never enjoyed it, was still indubitably his property. In the case of mortgagees the operation of the bill would be most oppressive, for it would, in fact, by retrospective operation, take from them a tenth part of what they had fairly become entitled to. There were many, cases in which persons had anticipated their successions to such an extent as to have almost entirely squandered them, and in such cases the Government stepped in, because a man had been a spendthrift, and ruined him altogether. A person knowing that he was to succeed to property, might antici pate and spend nine-tenths of its value, and, when the remaining tenth would enable him to make a fair start in life, this new tax to be imposed would entirely swallow it up. A s far as the right to spend in anticipation went, a perfect right to do so undoubtedly existed. Another strong objection which he entertained to the measure was, that property might, in certain cases, be called upon to pay the duty more than once. He himself considered this question entirely with reference to its general effect, but he would call the attention of the noble earl at the head of the Government and of the noble duke near him (the Duke of Argyll), and of all noble lords who took peculiar in terest in the affairs of Scotland, to what would be the operation of this measure in Scotland. As far as he under stood the measure, according to the Scotch law, the direct descendants of a person who inherited property from a stranger or distant relation, 150 years ago, might still be called upon to pay more than 1 per cent. It was his inten tion to propose certain amendments in committee on this bill. One of those amendments would be for the purpose of correcting that anomaly. He should move that when the tenant for life should. have paid a higher duty than 1 per cent., that person of his family coming into it after wards should only pay 1 per cent. He should also propose that when a settlement had been made by a man upon the marriage of any of his children no person under that settle ment should, during the settlor's life, become subject to the duty. He would, to show the necessity of such a pro vision, offer an illustration to their lordships. He would take the case of a tradesman who had by hard industry amassed some property, and who upon the marriage of his daughter made a settlement for life upon the husband, with reversion to the widow at his decease. Upon the death of the husband the noble earl stepped in and took part of the capital of the fund from the daughter of the living man, while the man who had accumulated the pro perty saw it dwindle away under the grasp of the tax ga therer. (Cheers.) How often had not marriages depended upon the simple question whether the young couple would be able to meet their future expenses or not ? The settle ment made was often the smallest they could manage to live upon, and then upon the husband's death Government stepped in and took a succession duty from the unhappy young widow and her family. Was there any necessity for that? (Hear, hear.) He would be the last man to object to it if it were indeed necessary. (Cheers.) But necessity alone could justify it, and authorize the Legis lature to break in upon past settlements. The bill was brought in in order to enable the Government still further to reduce indirect taxation. But he doubted the wisdom of carrying direct taxation too far • and he regarded with great distrust all these attempts aget rid of indirect tax ation, and to substitute direct taxation in its place. He wished to point out to their lordships the operation of this bill. From the moment the bill passed, no man could make the slightest disposition of his real or personal property without coming under the observation of the Government. Let not the owner of personal property lay the flattering unction to his soul, that he would escape the observation of the tax-gatherer. The public would have access to all public documents. The Bank of England was open to them, as well as every other place. There could be no joint accounts kept at the Bank which would not come to the knowledge of the Government ; and there would be no settlement of property in the empire that would not be followed by the tax-gatherer. Every morning he would look through the lists of marriages. In each case he would suspect a settlement ; in q uiry would be made for it ; and it would, in some way or other, be forthcoming. The tax, too, was one that would t ouc h all classes in life. Every marriage settlement, even among the trading classes, would be placed before the world, and the whole comfort and privacy of life would be broken in upon. He believed their lordships would deeply regret it if they passed the bill in its present shape. (Hear.) He intended to propose an amendment in section 18, which was less clear than he thought it ought to be as to property bequeathed by a husband to his wife, or by the wife to the husband. By the act of 1796, and subsequent acts, there was an express exemption of such property from duty, and he proposed to introduce a special exemption into the present bill, which he thought would be preferable to an exemption in which this case was incidentally included at the end of a clause. There also was another clause which it would be desirable to introduce into the present bill—namely, that whatever property was subject to the legacy duties under the Le ac Duties Acts should not be subject to this duty. A question had already been asked of the Government, whether they would not put the du t y u p on the same footing betweeer a n o et thhbetween g e i t m f m - htfather - y teste th br diate, ought not to pay ally a t h n e d r s a o n n d . b T r o h t e h d e r e se and ee brotherfrom more t n h d deur s t i to a brother in-law who had married t s sister, father to son. He thoug also that if he a legacy testet were , left e to te r' t s ed sts w te h r, er w e o t u h l e d pe ha re ve ee pa e i h d e . " mar he ought not to pay a greater duty than his wife, te w st n a : rgTheeheleclwauitshe, as it was drawn, les el f ey t o per thes person of s t e a f t nearer or.'' B ri or ed he t brother-in-law or the sister-in-law was of no consanguinity :toninsanwgueiansieteyetuhtanef blooms:hi! to the testator, and he should propose an amendment the meet these cases. He believed that all mank ind, when time came, would prefer the income-tax to this tax. (Hear, hear.) He did not speak as a person interested on this subject. He had never had a succession, nor did he ever expect a succession—(hear, hear)—but he wished to save the people of England from a bill which would lead to legal strife, which would carry discomfort into every habitation, and finally work its own condemnation in the course of time. Their lordships had been told of the necessity of diminishing the expenses of conveyances, and of the gene ral wish which existed that the expenses attending the transfer of real (Mato 4(41 be greatly loomed, But how ast THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING ' , JULY 26, 1853. had the Government met this? • They had met it by' put tin e., for the first time in England, by moans of a fiscal re gulation, a mortgage upon every man's property through out the empire—(hear, hear)—and that mortgage was de clared to be a first charge, which would exclude everything else. Former acts of Parliament made a person liable to pay responsible under a heavy pressure ; but the Govern ment were not content with that, and took an actual mortgage for such it was —upon the property itself. (Hear, hear.) The bill said that :—" No bona fide purcha ser of property for valuable consideration under a title not appearing to confer succession shall be subject to any duty with which such property may be chargeable under the provisions of this act, by reason of any intrinsic circum stances of which he shall not have had notice at the time of such purchase." By such an enactment as this, property would be placed in more peril than it had been placed in before by any Government. You introduced the subject of notice—constructive notice, notice to a man's attorney or agent—and all this you introduced at the peril of purchasers at a time when you were proposing to shorten their titles and render those titles secure ! At the proper time, therefore, he should propose the insertion of words in order to take out of the bill the mischief which lurked under it in this form. He would now, in conclusion, say a word to the right rev. prolate opposite. He would put it to them whether they would be parties to place this measure, with all its obnoxious regulations, upon their fellow subjects, while they themselves were excluded from its operation. (Cheers.) Their support of the bill under such circumstances might bo considered an act of gratitude to the Government, but he hoped and trusted that they would not by their votes help to place upon other men's shoulders a burden which had not been imposed upon them. (Cheers.) The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that so large a por tion—indeed, almost the whole—of the observations which had been addressed to their lordships by his noble and learned friend had turned upon the details of the different clauses of the bill, that it might have been considered a justifiable course on his part simply to allow the bill to go into committee, and to answer, clause by clause, the ob servations which his noble and learned friend had made upon it. Some of those observations, however, were of a more general character than the rest, and there was throughout the whole of them such gross exaggeration— he did not at all wish to use the term offensively—such an extraordinary colouring with regard to the supposed opera tion of this bill, that he felt called on to make a few re marks before putting the motion, that their lordships do resolve themselves into committee. (Hear.) His noble and learned friend had commenced by observing, that there was nothing to show that this measure was popular in the country. He had, however, been obliged to follow that observation by another, to the effect that unquestion ably there was nothing to show tho measure was unpopu lar. Now he (the Lord Chancellor) asked their lordships if, in respect to any tax which the imagination of man could devise, they could expect more than that it should not be unpopular? (Hear.) What popularity could be gained by proposing to tax any one ? Popularity for a tax was per fectly out of the question. His noble and learned friend had followed this observation by the remark, that he was afraid the operation of the bill was not understood in the country. Now, without meaning to doubt the sincerity of his noble and learned friend, he (the Lord Chancellor) believed the real objection felt by him and the noble lords by whom he was surrounded was, that they thought the measure was understood throughout the country. It was felt through out the country that this was an attempt to tax the ex tensive properties of the landed proprietorsso as to equalise the national burdens. (Cheers.) The noble earl (the Earl of Derby) had described it the other night as a discredit able feeling on the part of those subject to the legacy duty to wish to extend the tax also to real estate. Now, far from concurring in this sentiment, he viewed that feeling as the foundation of the justice of this bill. There was a legacy duty upon personal estate, and those who bore that tax—who, speaking generally, were confined to the poorer classes--felt that landed proprietors ought to be put into the same category as themselves. That was the principle of this bill. There were two principles, so to speak, in volved in the measure. The first was, that whereas the legacy duty had heretofore been paid only in respect to legacies of personal estate, real estate was now subjected to the same burdens. Now, a wish to effect this object might be a bad feeling in human nature, but he was sure they must all admit that such a feeling must necessarily find its way into the human heart. (Hear, hear.) That was the first principle of the bill. The second was—and it was one of a cognate nature—that whereas heretofore legacy duty had been imposed only upon persons dying in possession of their property and leaving it by their will, nobody should now be entitled to withdraw himself from the obligation of contributing in this way to the national exchequer by making a settlement, instead of leaving the property to be disposed of by his will. (Hear, hear.) These were the two principles of the bill, and, if they were recognised, there could not bo any possible reason why the house should not resolve itself into committee. (Hear, hear.) He admitted that if the measure were considered as one which would be productive of the grossest injustice, that would form a reason against pro ceeding with it. But was that so ? His noble and learned friend to-night, and the noble earl a few evenings ago, had exerted all their ingenuity and ability in bringing forward extreme cases, which they contended would be productive of enormous hardships under this bill ; but he should like to hear the noble earl or his noble and learned friend point out any imaginable tax of which the same thing might not be said. (Hear, hear.) They were now proposing to tax a great and powerful class, and it was not to be wondered at if there were cases of occasional hard ship. The truth was, that when you once came to impose a tax, justice, such as they were ordinarily disposed to con sider it, could not be attained ;it was impracticable. The object of justice was to secure people in the possession of their property ; but the moment you imposed a tax you said, in effect, " I am coming to take away a certain por tion of your property," which was an injustice, except so far as it was warranted by the exigencies of the State. All that could be said in such a case was, that the tax you imposed was in its nature a just one, and that you had adopted the best machinery which you could devise to meet the existing difficulties and to remove objections. (Hear.) His noble and learned friend had said how very unjust it was in the case where property came from a stran ger, where a tenant for life had it, and then, perhaps, his son succeeded him, and the son's children—how very unjust it was that the son should pay the stranger's duty, and the children pay the stranger's duty afterwards. Was that so very unjust ? Why, that was the case with regard to the legacy duty ; that was the way in which it was paid with respect to all personal and all leasehold estate. (Hear.) It was the law now with regard to that class of property, and, moreover, real estate would not practically bear its full burden, and would not pay so much as personal estate, because the duty was calculated upon a different principle, infinitely' more beneficial in the case of real estate. Take a case. Suppose the father died, and that, by the dreadful, iniquitous, retrospective operation of this bill, the son was charged with duty on succession to his real estate. He (the Lord Chancellor) shrank from those enormous figures with which their lordships had been terrified the other night, and with which he was quite unable to cope. (A laugh.) Sup pose, instead of talking of 50,0001. a-year, they were to take the case of a man who succeeded to an estate of 1001. or 1,0001. a-year. Suppose the son succeeded at the age of 39 ; what was the enormous grievance to which he would be subjected? Succeeding at that age, the 1001. a year would be worth 15 years' purchase, and therefore the whole sum upon which duty would be paid would be 1,500/. But take the case where the estate was worth 1,0001. a year. The sum upon which duty would have to be paid would then be 15,0001. What was the charge upon that? 1501. How was it to be paid ? By eight different instal ments, commencing at the end of one year. In other words, he would pay four yearly instalments of 371. 10s. upon a net income of 1,0001. a year—that was to say, he would pay 71.105. more than he paid now for income tax, and after that he paid nothing. Was that a grievance of such enor mous magnitude ? The noble and learned lord had endea voured to raise a feeling about the manner in which this bill would affect poor tradesmen ; but settlements were almost unknown to persons in that condition of life. The truth was, that the introduction of settlements, just as the introduction of real estate into this bill, was felt to be but just, because it was only another mode of subjecting to this tax that species of property which, belonging generally to the rich and to the powerful, had been ordinarily with drawn from the operation of taxation by arrangements, and deeds, and management, to which the poorer classes were entirely strangers. He trusted that their lordships would, in spite of the address of his noble and learned friend, have not the least hesitation in forthwith going into committee, feeling, as he was sure they might, that it was a bill in unison with a spirit of universal justice—a bill, the propriety of which had been felt by the country at large, and which, having passed the other house of Parlia ment by large majorities, and having been received with universal approbation throughout the country, he trusted their lordships would not incur the dangerous responsibility of resisting. (Cheers.) The Earl of WINCHILSEA was prepared to contend that, whether they considered this bill on the grounds of justice, of oppression, and cruelty, or as a source of litiga tion, it was one of the most obnoxious, detestable, and odi ous measures that had ever been placed on the statute-book. It would fall on those who came after us to pay this tax, and it would place every man's title deeds at the mercy of the tax-gatherer. From the imperfect manner in which many of these deeds had been prepared, flaws would be found in them, and the small proprietors would suffer most from the litigation that would ensue. These were indeed strange times when the proud barons of England submitted to such measures ! The Government was in the hands of the Harpies, and they were going to per petuate all the worst features of the legacy duties, and to place the landed proprietors in the same hands for four years. He ventured to affirm that the tax would create greater excitement when once it was fairly understood through the length and breadth of the country, than any tax that had ever yet been imposed. No amendment could ever reconcile him to the principle of so odious a measure. He deeply regretted he was not aware when the second reading took place. Had he known it, he would have divided the house, even if he had stood alone, and his name at all events should have gone down to posterity as that of one who had resisted that bill to the last. Their lordships then went into committee on the bill. Clause 1 was agreed to without any discussion. It is merely interpretatory. On clause 2, by which " every past or future disposition of property" in certain cases is construed as a succession, and the words " successor and predecessor" defined. The Earl of DERBY rose to move the amendment of which ho gave notice on a previous evening. Having already, at very considerable length, stated the objections he entertained, almost as strongly as his noble friend, not only to the principle but to the details of the bill, he should hold himself inexcusable if he did more than state briefly the nature of the amendment to which he now asked their lordships' assent. But as this was the first amendment which had been proposed, he thought he might be permitted to answer a preliminary objection hinted at by the noble earl opposite, and insisted on by the noble and learned lord in the course of that afternoon, with respect to the dangerous consequences which, he told them, might arise from their making alterations in the bill. He was perfectly aware that, according to the privileges of the House of Commons, in the case of an amendment being introduced in a money bill by their lordships, there was sometimes a matter of diffi culty in inducing the otner house to accept that amend ment ; but, at the same time, he knew also that amend ments in money bills had been introduced in this house, and that the House of Commons had an easy mode—of which they had frequently availed themselves—of recon ciling the assertion of their privileges with an assent to amendments proposed in their lordships' house. He re- membered one instance which he had been reminded of in the course of that day by a noble lord who entertained a very strong objection to the principle of this bill, but who was absent on account of a domestic calamity. That noble lord, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, had introduced a bill, as a measure in his budget, for the purpose of varying and altering the stamp duties. An amendment was made in their lordships' house, materially affecting the character of that bill with regard to the budget; it was sent down to the Commons, and the other house did not assent to it, or accept their lordships' alterations ; but, though techni cally they did not do so, they moved that the bill, as amended, should be laid aside. They then suspended the standing orders, and reintroduced a bill toticlern, verbis, the same as the amended bill which had been sent down to them ; and, having passed it through all its stages, sent it up as a new bill to their lordships. He was ready to ad mit the House of Commons was quite right in vindicating its technical privileges as well as guarding its bond fide control over the money of the country ; but he said this, that if measures were to be introduced altering the whole financial arrangements of the empire —measures making new and unheard-of taxes on new and extraordinary prin ciples of taxation—and it was asserted that their lordships were to have no power of altering a single word, of cor recting even a mistake, or of rectifying errors into which the House of Commons might have fallen—that was in effect to say, their lordships' house was a useless por tion of the Legislature, and that, so far as financial mea sures were concerned, they had only to record the bills framed by the other House of Parliament. He hoped that. whatever course they might take with respect to bills of minor importance, they would not consent to abrogate all legislative functions so far as to say that the magic words "This is a money bill' would be enough to preclude them from exercising any consideration on a subject of so much importance. Me regretted very much that when the noble earl on a former occasion attempted to persuade them to appoint a committee of inquiry into the working of the bill, they had not acceded to it, for much useful explana tion might have been given, and the bill rendered less ob jectionable in consequence during its progress through the other house. He would not enter upon the consideration of the circumstances under which that proposition was rejected. Their lordships were now called on to deal with the bill as it came from the House of Commons, with all the inconvenience of being called on to alter it where it was found objectionable. Before he went to the particu lar amendment he was about to propose, he must be per mitted to comment on the extraordinary tone and language which had been adopted by the noble and learned lord, and the strange inconsistency between his assumptions and his arguments. The noble and learned lord told them first, that no tax of the kind could ever be popular. The noble earl opposite said this particular bill had been re ceived with universal approval and acclamation. He could not see how the silence which prevailed in the country could be taken to signify any feeling of the kind. The noble and learned lord at the commencement of his obser vations said the bill was popular in the, country, because it was thoroughly well understood, and was understood to be aimed at the large landed proprietors of the country alone —that it was subjecting them to a tax which they were of call p e u d tt o in n gbyleeevdeeryd on n la t i h m e soefmjeusfteiecteintgo3epapythfoerr deeri purposethci ep ti of property, and that being an assault on the large landed os proprietors, and so understood, the bill was received with universal popularity. Now, assuming the fact to be as the noble and learned lord had stated, he must say he had too good an opinion of the sense and justice of his countrymen at large to believe that if the bill was an attack on the landed proprietors it would be a recommendation of its principle to their feelings of justice. (Hear.) But having told them that, the noble and learned lord proceeded to say he did not propose to deal with taxation on incomes of 20,000/. or 40,000. —such sums he knew nothing of, but that he would consider the measure as it affected, not those large landed properties, which he had just said it almost exclusively affected, but small p r operties from 1001. to 1,0001. a-year. Now, he thought the noble and learned lord exceedingly mistaken with reapect to the tax, and when he told them that small properties acquired by tradesmen or persons in the middle classes were not fre quently the subject of settlements, he believed he had fallen into a serious error, and his belief was that among those middle classes and the owners of settled property the pres sure and hardship of the bill would be felt more severely than it would be among those whom the noble and learned lord wished to lean upon heavily. The annoyance, vexa tion, and pressure, indeed, might be felt with regard to both, but let their lordships recollect that, with respect to the small properties, of which very little had been said as yet, but of which much would be said hereafter, the pro portion of the legal charges, and the burdens on the tax payer, without coming into the finance of the country, would be felt much more severely than among the larger proprietors, and his conviction was that the amo unt of the tax would not be so oppressive as t he law y ers' bi lls , which would exceed the amount of the whole tax among the middle classes. The noble and learn ed lord said t here were two principles involved in the bill—first, that of pl ac i ng real and personal property on the same footi ng ; next , placing devised and settled property on the same footing. As to placing those two descriptions of property on the same footing, all he could say was, that the bill imposed a new tax on a description of property which was already most heavily charged, and Which had burdens no one at tempted to deny. As to the second remark, he admitted the principle was intended to Place settled property, whether real or personal, on the same footing as devised property, but he could not admit that it was founded in justice, because, apart and distinct from either, the bill must have a retro spective operation when imposed on property which was held by settlement. That was a new principle in the law of England. The amendment he was about to propose went on this principle :—Place, if you would, settled pro perty and devised property on an equal footing—place, if you would, real and personal property on an equal footing— subject them to the same posthumous charges, but, at all events, don't make the imposition on one or other retro spective, when it was impossible for persons who settled or devised property to make any alteration in their disposition of it. (Hear.) Take the case of devised property. The present claims would come into operation—not after the passing of the act—not after notice, so that persons might make such a distribution of their property as would enable them to meet the changes introduced, so that each member of their family might be enabled to pay the tax in propor tion, but they were about to apply a new legacy duty to real property, and to all wills which had been made previ ous to the 19th of May in the present year. Consequently, if they passed the bill now, and a man knew it, he could make a new will, and make such a disposition of his pro perty as he pleased, leaving so much in proportion to his younger children, and so much to the eldest son, but in the other case the Government came in, and made a new will for him. They stepped in, and, not permitting him to alter his testamentary disposition—for he was dead—they imposed a new tax which would have the effect of altering the proportion in which he left his property under the san tion of a former law. Ho could quote a case in confirma tion of the view ho took of this point. In the year 1838 a bill was introduced to prohibit and check a plurality of church benefices, and thus to get rid of a great abuse and an evil which every ono admitted, but so cautions was the Legislature of that day not to interfere with the vested rights of persons even in that which was in itself a gross abuse that provision was made in the bill to the effect that any person having had left to him the reversion of the next presentation to a living, though it was a plurality, should not be barred from the advantages of the will of his prede cessor by that act, and in the course of the last year there had been a case in which , after the lapse of 15 years from the passing of the act, a person h a d succee d e d to the rever sion of a living secured to him under a will dated in 1837. But there was no gross abuse to be got rid of in this case, no great object to be gained. The sole motive for passing this bill was to put up a certain portion of money into the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in order to sup ply the deficiency caused by his own act. Her Majesty's Government had thought fit to take off other taxes quite equal in amount to the tax which they expected to raise under this bill ; and they proposed to patch up the defi ciency so caused by bringing in this bill, which, contrary to all precedent , and contrary to all justice, as he contended, th e y meant to apply to the will of a man who had did six months ago. But how much stronger was the case with respect to settled property. They were about to apply the bill r etrospectively to all family settlements made years ago, in which there had been many subsequent transac tions—estates mortgaged, mon e y b orr owed, subsequent settlements made, and arrangements effected between dif ferent parties in the course perhaps of the last 100 or 200 years, all of which would be unsettled and disturbed by the operation of the-bill, which, so far as its principle was concerned, might have been simply prospective, but which for the sake merely of obtaining an immediate revenue, they proposed to make retrospective as well. The clauses in which this principle was m ore part i cu l ar ly t o be found were the Ist, 2d, 3d, sth, 15th, and 24th. The first clause provided for the interpretation of the different terms con tained in the act, but the second clause provided that "every past or future disposition of property, by reason whereof any person has or shall become beneficially en titled to any property, or the i ncome th ere of, upon the death of any person dy i ng after the time appointed for the commencement of this act, either immediately, or after any interval, either certainly or contingently, and either originally or by way of substitutive limitation, and every devolution by law of any beneficial interest in property, or the income thereof, upon the death of any person dying after the time appointed for the commencement of this act to any other person, in possession or expectancy, shall be deemed to have conferred or to confer on the person en titled by reason of any such disposition or devolution a anythe previousbeefita and df existing t osurvivorshipo m agree ment iinto o succession." The third clause, wen t f ur th erfor i t prov id e d that if he, for instance, and any other p erson w e r e now in their own right in joint possession of an y pro pe r ty, an d if the other possessor were to die, and he, th e surv ivor, were then o the fwihr tax-gatherer would come i o ct er he had before had only aim a byrae o a r ns l e o g f el o a r v t i e rt e u b e tei of h inth divided i h fve ll e i d r remainder enjoymenta p i o n s d s e e r ss i o o f en histthat e own t down and enforce the payment of the tax on that benefit of survivorship, just as if it had been a new and absolute suc cession. - With regard to the sth clause, its vexations, as applied to future legacies, would be interminable, but he would not go into them, as he was now contending against the application of the principle to bygone transactions, and to an already existing state of things. Every one of their lordships who had succeeded to property subject to any annuities or jointures whenever that property should be increased by the death of any one of the persons now re ceiving jointures or annuities, would be called on then to pay the tax, though they did not succeed to property in the slightest degree, but simply because a charge upon the pro perty which was theirs before had fallen in. It was a mon strous case of hardship, and one not at all necessarily de ducible from the principle of the bill itself, that any one should be taxed on the removal of a charge which had been imposed on him by a bygone instrument. (Hear, hear.) The 15th clause, too, was grossly unjust, for it said that if should have disposed of his reversionary Jerson rest person rest in any property, whether at the death of the person holding it, or afterwards when the reversion fell in, the alienee, who had bought it and paid the full market value for it, was to be placed in the same position as the person from whom he had bought it, and was to have an equal deduction made from his income as. would have been made from that of the original holder of the reversion. If the person from whom he had bought the reversion happened to inherit it from his father, then he would only be,plun but if, on the contrary, the seller dared of one per cent., inherited from a distant relation, the purchaser would have to pay the tax of 10 per cent. Thus, two transactions might take place of this • • nature, at the time of the purchase exactly alike but when the reversions fell in they would be materially altered, —a great injustice would be committed on both, but on ono it would be tenfold greater than on the ' lases.been the slihtest difference in other, without there havi very much like the terms of the two purc He should her Ma esty 's Government by to hear any suggestion froms e, "ustice. The 34th clause which they could palliate t t that while it made allow committed this great inj us ice, ances for all encumbrances on a property no t created by t eve r extent ho might have en the successor, yet, to wh a cumbered his reversionary interest. himself —whether for no matter for what his own benefit or thato f his relations, bad--no allowance was to be made for such motive, good or ba at as he himself had created, and w hi c h t he encumbrances time of creating them he could not foresee would lead to such consequences. He was not quite sure that he under stood correctly the amount of burden to be thrown upon the tenant succeeding in fee simple. By the 21st clause they were told that the tax was to be charged according to the value of an annuity equal to the annual value of the property, and in another part that was to be charged as an annuity of 95 years. The only clause where the successor in fee simple was mentioned was the 27th, relating to cor porations. Take the case of an estate of 50,0001. a-year, and suppose it inherited from a person not immediately connected with the successor, and suppose the possessor to come into possession of it at the age of 25, it would be no slight deduction to have to pay in the first four years 85,0001., which would be the tax which, under the circumstances he had mentioned, would have to be paid to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. And this might be repeated moreover toties quoties. He ventured to doubt the answer given by the noble and learned lord as to the rule for future successions. His own interpretation of course was worth nothing, but he had consulted persons well qualified to judge, and their opinion was, that the original liability, the ori g inal absence of relationship in the first instance, would fall upon every subsequent successor, inasmuch as each successor would be held to take, not from his immediate predecessor, but from the persons who instituted the original settlement. Every subsequent relationship would, therefore, be traced to the person who originally formed the entail, and in proportion to the relationship which he bore to his immediate successor so would the tax be rated for all time to every person succeeding for ever after. There were many such cases as this in Scotland ; he knew of a property there which had lately been newly settled, in the first instance upon a distant relative, and, if his interpretation of the clause were right, that property in all time to come would be chargeable with the heaviest rate of duty, even if it succeeded for 20 generations in an unbroken line from father to son. If that interpretation were not correct, then of course her Majesty's Government could have no objection to insert words which would make it quite clear that such was not the intention of the bill. The first amendment which he should move would be in this clause to leave out the words " past or," so that the clause would run—" every future disposition of property." If their lordships rejected this amendment, it would be idle to propose similar amendments in the succeeding clauses ; but, if they consented to it, it would be necessary for him to propose similar amendments with regard to the succeed ing clauses, so as to make them consistent in spirit. If he were successful in persuading their lordships to introduce these words, though it would not affect his opinion of the abstract impolicy and injustice of the bill, yet it would considerably mitigate those insuperable objections which he now felt to the bill in its present form, as inflicting the grossest injustice upon innocent parties. The Earl of ABERDEEN said, he was still unable to understand the course pursued by the noble earl who had just sat down. The noble earl who spoke earlier (Winchil sea) was perfectly consistent, for he denounced the bill as iniquitous and unjust, and he would have opposed the second reading. The noble lord opposite (Lord St. Leo nards) complained, indeed, that there had been no oppor tunity of voting against the second reading of the bill, but he could not tell what opportunity noble lords de sired, for it appeared to him that there had been ample opportunity, and, if they meant to he consistent, they ought to have acted upon it. The noble earl oppo site (the Earl of Derby) said this bill was the corner stone and foundation of the financial system of the year—that the whole financial arrangements of the year rested upon this tax. He said truly, and he assigned that as a reason for not proposing to oppose the second reading of the bill, in order that he might not so destroy the corner-stone and foundation of the fi nanc i a l system. He could understand that reasoning and agree in it if the alterations proposed by the noble earl were con sistent with the preservation of the edifice of which he talked, but when the noble earl's first amendment was such as totally to destroy the whole building, he would leave them to judge what sincerity and what tenderness for the preservation of this corner-stone were really to be as signed to him. The effect of the amendment, so far as he understood it, would be that for the first year the re venue would not receive one farthing from the tax, and, as regarded settlements, it would postpone the tax for one generation-30 years, or it might be 50 years. That was what the noble earl called preserving the corner-stone and foundation of the financial system of the year ! (Hear, hear.) The noble earl affected great tenderness for the small proprietors, but he must know that settled estates were always to be found among the large proprietors of this country. He must know that settlements were very rare among the middle classes of this country. The evidence given before their lordships' committee on the burdens on land showed that clearly. (The noble earl here read an ex tract from the evidence taken before that select committee.) Therefore, in point of fact, the persons for whom the noble earl professed such tenderness were at this moment liable to the legacy duty, in consequence of the way in which— in nine cases out of ten—they disposed of their property. The noble earl who spoke early in the debate made a touch ing allusion to the " bold barons," and, judging from ap pearances, some noble lords seemed disposed to act on the principle which actuated the bold barons of old—that of feudal exemption from burdens borne by the rest of the community. (Cheers.) The object of the present measure was to extend to the " bold barons" a system of taxation applicable to their fellow-subjects. It was in that sense only that the tax in question could be said to be popular. It was perfectly true, as stated by the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, that although no tax could be posi tively popular, yet popularity might attach to the prin ciple of applying a tax equally to all classes. (Hear.) It was all very well to say that the tax was not understood, and that that was the reason why no petitions had been presented against it ; but there were persons well able to enlighten the people on the subject, and, if the want of that communicated knowledge had been the real cause of the abstinence from petitioning, no one need doubt that there would have been a plentiful crop of petitions by this time. (Cheers and laughter.) The noble earl who spoke early in the evening accounted for the absence of petitions against the tax by saying that the people had no confidence in Parlia ment. It was singular, however, that this want of con fidence should operate in the • manner described by the noble earl as regarded the succession tax alone. There was now lying before him a return of the petitions presented to the House of Commons up to the 15th of July, from which it appeared that while whole pages were filled with petitions against almost every tax it was possible to name, not one bad been presented against the succession tax. (Hear.) Under these circumstances, without going so far as to say that any tax conld be decidedly popular, was he not justified in referring to the absence of petitions as evidence that in the opinion of the people the tax on suc cessions was just ? The short answer he had to make to the noble earl who spoke last, and who professed a wish not to disturb the corner stone of the financial fabric of the Go vernment was this, that his amendment would destroy the whole structure. (Hear.) It would prevent the tax from having any profitable existence until a period so remote that it would be impossible to calculate on it. If the noble earl's amendment and other amendments of which notice had been given should be adopted, the bill would be alto gether remodelled. Now, he must beg to call their lord ships attention to the practical effect of this mode of pro ceeding. It was not his intention to question any of their lordships' privileges, or to control them in the exercise of their rights ; but he must be permitted to observe, that there existed no precedent in the least degree similar to the course now proposed to be taken since the assertion by the House of Commons of the exclusive right to origi nate and conduct money bills through Parliament The other night a noble friend submitted to their lordships a proposition respecting the income tax, which he thought very injurious and ill-judged ; but, if carried, it might have been assented to by the Commons, because it would not have altered by a single farthing the produce of the tax, being limited entirely to the mode of collection The House of Commons had actually agreed, some years ago, to an al teration of a similar character in one of their bills. When Mr. Canning's Corn Bill came into their lordships' house it was subjected to certain alterations, which the Commons agreed to because they did not affect the produce of the tax. It was, therefore, just possible that the Commons might have agreed to the amendment of his noble friend on the Income Tax Bill—however injudicious it might have been • but the amendment now proposed was of a totally different character, for it dealt not with the mode of collection, but with the whole body of the tax. (Hear, hear.) But, further than that, it was his duty to declare that, whatever the House of Commons might do, it was utterly impossible for the Government to think of acceding to an amendment which would destroy the intention and cut off the produce of the tax. The objection on which the noble earl chiefly relied was untenable. The noble earl denounced what he conceived to be the injustice of imposing a tax which would affect existing settlements ; but their lordships must perceive that almost any tax im posed without notice must affect existing interests. In this very budget a new tax was imposed upon Scotch and Irish spirits. Very well ; the Scotch distiller might have contracted to supply a quantity of spirits at a price regu lated by the old tax, and he was bound to fulfil his en gagement, even although it should ruin him. That was a case precisely in point ; in principle it was the same. (Hear, hear.) But then the noble earl said that the Go vernment had voluntarily created a deficiency in order that they might impose this tax to supply it. In reference to this point he must take the liberty of asking a question, —if this tax were really injurious, oppressive, and abominable, as it was represented to be, why had the noble earl consented to the remission of taxation which it was intended Ito supply ? It was true a noble lord had proposed to defer for some time the bill repealing the soap duty. The Earl of DERBY.—So did L The Earl of ABERDEEN.—True; but not because of the alleged injustice of the tax by which the deficiency o caused by the remission of the soap dut y was meaty be supplied. The argument advanced for deferring the repeal of the soap duties was, that it wa s desirable not to i*ht dimi nish our fiscal resources at a moment when wa break out. After all, however, monstrous and a i bo t yr ' n r a i m s n a one as the present measure was described to b e , which would have been propos ed b y the late Government. G o vernment It was not his intention to sta te that the late would have proposed a bill in form precisely the sa . me. asp s that before the house, but th eir adoptioneoafnoounpoorindc.i of a tax on successions was more than on o c ! I will explain The Earl of MALMESBITRY. —N° P n that presently. The Earl of ABERDEEN did not say that the late Go vernment had a measure actually prepared, Out he was warranted in sayin g that they co ntemplatedthe imposition t of a tax on successions. In a case of this kind i was cus tomary to refer to Hansard as a kind of authority, and in that record he found that on the 3d of December it was stated in another place — The Earl of DERBY rose to order. It certainly was a custom—t h oug h one more honoured in the breach than the observance —to comment in their lordships' house on reports of what was said to have taken place in the H ouse of Commons. It might save the noble earl some trouble, and prevent him from committing an irregularity, if lie were simply to assure the noble earl that no proposal, either in a speech or any other form, for the imposition of a tax on successions was at any time submitted to him for consideration, nor, as far as he knew, was it ever sub mitted to the consideration of any member of his Go vernment. (Hear.) The Earl of ABERDEEN thought the noble earl was not justified in calling him to order. The Earl of DERBY contended that he was warranted in calling the noble earl to order when ho was about to read some newspaper report of what was supposed to have taken place during the present session in the other house of Parliament. The Earl of ABERDEEN admitted that according to the strict letter of their lordships' rules, he was out of order in doing anything so unusual as to refer to what had been said in another place. (A laugh.) It was true a noble earl had that evening alluded in direct terms to a speech deli vered in the other house, and indeed there was hardly any noble lord, in the habit of addressing the house frequently, who had not often committed a similar offence. The noble earl had said that his Government never intended Co im pose a tax on successions, but, with reference to that point, he must take the liberty of reading an extract £rom a speec h supposed to have boen spoken elsewhere by the noble earl's Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 3d of De cember last. The passage was as follows : "At the same time we have not neglected carefully to examine the question of the stamp duties and the probate duties; and we think it not impossible to bring forward, on the right occasion, a duty on successions that will re concile contending interests, and terminate the system now so much complained of." (Cheers.) That passage was taken from what he had already referred to as the most authentic record of Parlia mentary proceedings; and in another record, of a more ephemeral character, he found precisely the same passage, except that the concluding words " the system now so much complained of," were changed into " the injustice now so much complained of." This was not all. On the 16th of December, as it appeared from the same record, the right hon. gentleman was supposed to have said : " We had to consider the whole question of the stamp duties with reference to those real burdens upon land, — upon the transfer of land, —which must sooner or later be dealt with, and a question of the utmost difficulty which must also not long be neglected—the question of the legacy and probate duties. We had to consider whether it was possible to propose to Parliament a duty on succession, which, in connexion with the total reform of the burdens on the transfer of land, would be an equitable and just settlement of the question, and one which was for the welfare of all classes." (Cheers.) Now, looking to what had passed, was he not justified in saying that the late Government was prepared —not to introduce a bill precisely similar to that now before the house—but to recognise a principle which was now denounced as one of singular atrocity ? (Hear, hear.) Having to deal now only with the first amend ment, he would not enter further into the subject, but he could not help observing that the case suggested of the possibility of the succession-tax being paid in the heaviest degree upon an estate for twenty generations, was sin gularly extravagant, like many of the cases suggested by noble lords opposite. In consequence of a change in the law, made some years ago, a father and son in Scotland could cut off the entail just as they could in England. The twenty generations would consist of queer people if they should allow the state of things suggested to continue, when they had it in their power to put an end to it. The noble earl's amendment was neither more nor less than this—it was an endeavour to do that which for reasons best known to himself he did not attempt on the second reading—namely, to effect the destruction of the bill. As such he regarded it ; the House of Commons might deal with it as they should think fit. (Cheers.) The Earl of HARDWICKE, as a member of Lord Derby's Cabinet, declared he had never heard from any member of the Government a suggestion for the imposition of a tax on successions. He had voted for the second reading of the bill because he was disposed to as• sent to a tax, but, having done so, he felt at liberty to amend the measure in committee. The allusion which the noble earl at the head of the Government had made to the " bold barons" was not very respectful to their lordships, nor calculated to insure the safety of the constitution. (Hear.) It was language which would not soon be forgotten. In spite of the noble earl's sneer, he would affirm that there existed not on the face of the earth a more liberal house of Legislature than that which their lordships composed. With reference to the clause before their lordships, he thought it peculiarly unjust. He wanted to know what justice there was in taxing settled estates and estates devised ? A settled estate was in many instances tied up by the law of succession under acts of Parliament, probably forbidding the raising of money, or the sale of a single acre. For these and other reasons he should support the amendment. Earl GRANVILLE, in reference to what had been stated by his noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) as having been spoken in the House of Commons by Mr. Disraeli, when Chancellor of the Exchequer, thought that the noble earl opposite (the Earl of Derby), by contradict ing that statement, could not have been present at the dis cussion ; for he (Earl Granville) could appeal to a noble lord on the opposite side of the house, whom he remem bered seeing under the gallery of the House of Commons when that speech was made, as to the fact of the passage referred to by the noble earl (Aberdeen) having been spoken, and as to its having been loudly applauded by those persons in that house who were most anxious to have a measure of the description now before their lord ships passed into a law. The declaration then made by Mr. Disraeli was, at the time, neither contradicted in their lordships' house, nor in the house of Commons. It was, in fact, generally understood that the right honourable gentleman and the Government to which he belonged considered that at some time or other such a measure ought to be proposed. He (Earl Granville), therefore, thought their lordships and the public had a right to assume that there was some foundation for what they had heard this evening. He (Earl Granville) had indeed heard it stated that certain votes had been given, and certain opinions expressed in the House of Commons, by members of his own party, which were not in accordance with the opinions of the noble earl opposite. He (Earl Granville) thought that the noble earl the other evening acted in a most statesman like manner when he rose and implored their lordships not to go into any premature discussion on foreign affairs, at the same time expressing the strongest wish that the same course should be taken in the House of Commons, and ask ing the noble earl at the head of the Government to use his influence to prevent any such discussion taking place. He (Earl Granville) was sure that many noble lords were, as he himself was the very next morning but one, surprised to learn that the right hon. gentleman who was supposed to be the leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons had pressed that house to come to an immediate discussion on that question. But he (Earl Granville) admitted that it was not fair to consider the noble earl bound to everything that might be said by his political adherents iu the other House of Parliament. The noble earl who had last spoken (the Earl of Hardwicke) had complained of his (Earl Gran ville's) noble friend (the Earl of Aberdeen) having twitted them, by making an appeal to them in the name of " bold barons." He (Earl Granville) could assure the noble earl that no taunt was thereby intended by his noble friend. It must be obvious to their lordships that his noble friend only used an expression which had been pre viously used by another noble earl, who had taken a strong course in denouncing the bill on its second reading. His noble friend's argument was that if their lordships ad mitted the principle of the bill by agreeing to the second reading, he could hardly conceive how they could alter those clauses on which that principle rested after the Go vernment had logically made out their proposition. With regard to the noble earl's objection to a tax upon settled property, and to what the noble earl called the retrospec tive effect of the bill, he (Earl Granville) thought it better to defer the consideration of that question until they came to the clauses particularly relating to it. The noble earl had remarked upon the peculiar conditions on which the Government had come before the house, and had stated that her Majesty's Government were disposed to introduce a new doctrine into the house by asserting the impossi bility of their lordships making the slightest alteration in a money bill that came up from the House of Commons. Now, he (Earl Granville) would say, in the first instance, that that was not a doctrine held by her Majesty's Govern ment ; and, in the next place, he would say that if it were so held by them, it would not be a new doctrine. He would read the opinion of Lord Chatham upon this point : " Taxation," said Lord Chatham, " is no part of the go verning or legislative power. The taxes are a voluntary gift of the Commons alone. In legislation the three estates of the realm are alike concerned ; but the concurrence of the peers and the Crown to a tax is only necessary to close with the form of a law. The gift and grant is of the Com mons alone." He (Earl Granville) believed he stated the opinion of all his colleagues when he said that they did not agree with the doc trines there laid down—that they did not agree with the doc trine of non-interference on thepart of their lordships' house, nor did they deny the right of their lordships, if they thought proper, to interfere with or making alterations in a money bill. But what his noble friend at the head of her Majesty's Government had maintained was, that there never was an occasion in which it would be so unwise and so inexpedient for their lordships to follow any such course as the present. When the noble and learned lord (Lord St. Leonards) disclaimed any personal feeling in this matter, he (Earl Granville) entirely went with him. It was a re markable thing that not 12 persons in their lordships' house had anypersonal interest in the matter ; and he believed if their lordships were to look over the votes on this question to-morrow morning, they would find that every. one of those persons who would be personally affected would be actually those who would support the Govern ment proposition. But this was an argument which it would be an insult to their lordships to use for one mo ment. It was not the personal feeling which their lord ships had, or even the prejudices which they might enter tain with regard to the class which they so pre-eminently re presented, that would guide thei r conduct on this q ues tion. It had been shown that the p resent position of the small landed proprietor under the present legacy tax was a very bad one, and that he would be much better cir cumstanced under a succession tax which limited the as sessment to any life interest that he might possess. It was, therefore, on the larger estates that this tax would mos t heavily fall ; th o ugh not equally with, but ab ou t 50 per cent. as compared with the tax on per sona l proper t y. He knew it was very idle for a person like him to attempt to use arguments against such an opponent as the noble an d learned but lord who first spke that evening (Lord St. Leonardo) ; what he (E ar l Granville) rested his e upon wa s, first of all, that no measure of any importance b a d ever passed both houses of Parliament, without there having been some persons on the opposition side, eminent in every way, who had conjured up imaginary grievances and difficulties, which in the result had proved to be en tirely without found a ti on. B ut he relied still more upon the fact that if there was the slightest foundation for the prophecies of the noble and learned lord, there would have been a double foundation for those prophecies 57 years ago. But noble lords, while arguing as to the manner in which this measure would affect property, entirely forgot that large estates held both in this country and in Ireland, as leasehold instead of as freehold, must have had to endure this tax. During those fifty-seven years, however, none of those grievances which had been described had arisen ; no litigation had taken place such as had been expected. He did, therefore, believe that as none of those grievances which had been so much dwelt upon had occurred during the last 57 years, the apprehension that they would hereafter occur, should this measure pass, was wholly without foundation. He therefore must beg their lordships to consider this state of things before they yielded implicitly to the advice which had been given to them. (Hear, hear.) The Duke of CLEVELAND complained that no oppor tunity had been afforded to their lordships for sufficiently considering the nature of the several provisions of this bill when it was read a second time. Had he on that occasion known its tendency and probable effects he should certainly have opposed its being read a second time. Both in the year 1842 and in 1846 ten days elapsed between the bill on the income tax being introduced into their lordships' house and being read a second time. The Earl of ABERDEEN begged to assure the noble duke that the arrangement for the second readin g of the bill was made in concert with the noble earl opposite (the Earl of Derby). arsons The Duke of CLEVELAND admitted that all p at ought to pay a like tax on property, no matter f rom h ever source their income might be derived ; b ee ex isted a strong feeling against the income taxl a ltogether, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was on y able to carry it by this sop in the pan—the succession tax. His objection to the proposedit would operate. H e posed tax was on the groundof the inequality and the unfairness of manner in wh ich was not one of those who would put forward factions ob jections to any measure that the Government might pro- b pose, but in this instance he felt himself called upon to support the amendment of his noble friend. The Duke of ARGYLL said, it must be admitted that an injustice and an inequality existed in the opera tion of the present legacy duties, and it was to rectify the injustice of the existing law that the Government had brought forward this measure. The noble earl opposite had argued that the Government were pro posing to levy the same burden upon real as upon personal property, but such was not the case ; on the contrary, they proposed to levy burdens upon realty to only half the extent of those upon personalty, and it was in re spect of landed property being rateable that they prop ose d to make that difference. It would be only fair, if of two properties one were subject to rates and the other not, in levying a tax, to make deduction for the rates, but the Government proposal went even further than that, for by it deductions were also made for outgoings necessary for the management of landed property. These deductions were to be made in respect of such things affecting the sale of small portions of land more than the sale of stock, and from the desire not to compel the breaking up of landed property. The duty was not to be levied upon the capital tvhaelutet,ht was a but a upon the life inter es t a l one • an d h e con t en d e d great consideration, which had not been esHufeffithdciiedenhntoelyteetaeht, e tiennkrdbteyhdaht becauseto ie by noble lords on the o pposite s ide noble ft a nt ond property t he cro s s - w b e a n s chcs sub ject to local taxati on it was a fair intererence that it should be exemlted altogether from a tax upon succession. He wished to call their lordship's attention to another point. The noble earl opposite had argued as if the dis tinction between personalty and realty entirely corres ponded with that between property subject to local taxa tion and that which was not. Such, however, was not the case, for under the law as it at present stood there was a very large class of property which was rated as personal property, and yet was subject to all the incidents of local taxation. He referred to leasehold property, which, under the existing law, paid legacy duty upon its capital value, and was at the same time subject to local taxation. Their lordships would perceive that, as regarded the owners of property of that description—by no means an inconsider able class—the result of this measure would be to diminish the burden under which they suffered b y . the existing law, by levying a succession duty upon life interest alone, in. • stead of a legacy duty upon capital value ; and would ap peal to noble lords opposite whether that consideration had been sufficiently brought before their lordships' notice, or whether or not it had been slurred over. He wished to say a few words on the amendment of the noble earl ; and, first, he must express his gratification that the noble earl had resolved to take a division upon that parti cular amendment, for he was perfectly well satisfied that it could not stand thetest of close investigation. He consi dered that a great deal of confusion and misapprehension had been caused by speakingof the clause at present under consideration as a retrospective clause. (Hear, hear.) It was not only not a retrospective clause, but it would only become so if the amendment of the noble earl were carried. (Hear, hear.) He would just point out what the real nature of the measure was. The intention in imposing a tax upon successions was to charge it upon those persons who came into possession of property by inheritance. It would be fair to call the present clause a retrospective clause if it levied a charge upon persons who had already succeeded to property, but the term was incorrect as ap plied to a clause which merely provided for the imposition of the tax upon those persons who for the future should inherit successions. (Hear, hear.) It was retrospective, not as regarded persons, but only as regarded the title deeds of different families, and no single tax had ever been imposed which had not in some sense been a retrospective measure. (Hear, hear.) He wished to make a comparison between the operation of the income tax and the proposed duty upon successions. He would take the case of a per son inheriting an estate of 5,0001. a-year without any en cumbrances. The noble earl opposite started at the pro posal to compel the successor to pay for four years an an nuity of about 178/. ; but he would ask their lordships to consider what would be the case if the income tax were continued ; and it was to enable the Government to dis pense with the income tax that this measure was intro duced. If the income tax were continued, the successor, instead of being subject to pay an annuity of 1781. for four years, would have to pay an annuity of 1461. for ever. (Hear, hear.) He confessed that he could not then agree with noble lords opposite that the contiuuance of the in come tax would be preferable to the introduction of this measure. (Hear, hear.) With regard to settlements, he could not see why the present measure should not be applied to that description of property. Persons coming into property under settlements received that property subject to the income-tax, and he did not, there fore, see any injustice in making it subject to a suc cession duty. In looking at that branch of the subject, noble lords opposite had been led away by the name of the thing ' • but surely it was justifiable, if it were admitted that there was no injustice in making such pro• perty liable to income-tax, to substitute a tax which wan less onerous. There was another misapprehension which had been apparent in the speeches of noble lords, and which perhaps had been assisted by language which had been employed on his side of the house. It was not cor rect to say that this bill would fall chiefly upon the owners of real property. There was an immense amount of per sonal property which escaped taxation under cover of deeds of gift, and it was one great object of this bill to levy the tax upon that species of personalty. With re gard to settled personalty, there was not a shadow of an argument why it should be exempted from the existing legacy duty. He might state that in the calculations of his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer by very much the largest sum expected from the proposed tax was from the capital arising from industrial pursuits. The noble earl did not oppose the second reading of this bill, not in order to avoid embarrassing the Government, for that, of course, he would care little about, but in order not to affect its financial prospects ; but the amend ment now proposed by him would have that effect. He most emphatically denied the assertion of the noble and learned lord opposite, that the present measure had been gratuitously brought forward. (Hear, hear.) He had no hesitation in distinctly asserting that the measure had been rendered immediately necessary by the financial schemes of the late Government. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl the late Secretary for Foreign Affairs had, the other evening, given a fair account of their position. They were bound in honour to make certain proposals, and those proposals led to their being defeated ; but he would say that no one was more pleased than himself to think that when they next returned to office, as in the general course of party warfare it was probable they would, they would not be encumbered by any of those former opinions ' which drove them into their mistaken principles of finance. But he would repeat that it was the rash and reckless proposals of the late Government, in reference to the income-tax, which imposed on the present Govern ment the necessity of immediately introducing this measure. He did not wish to say that, under any cir cumstances, it could have been long deferred, fora remedy to the present injustice could not have been delayed much longer, and then, in all probability, the duty would have been proposed upon capital value instead of upon life interest. It was, then, the principle of the late Govern ment with regard to the differentiation of the income tax., The Earl of DERBY—I repudiate the word differentia tion altogether. (Laughter.) The Duke of ARGYLL could not use the word "dis crimination," because that word implied justice, but, as there was no justice in the scheme of the late Govern ment with regard to the income tax, he used the word "differentiation." He believed that those proposals, if carried, would have fallen more heavily upon the owners of real property than the successions duties would. (Hear, hear.) It was his firm conviction that the measure now proposed by her Majesty's Ministers was not one which would press with undue heaviness on the landed in terest. (Hear, hear.) Lord ST. LEONARDS wished only to offer a very few observations on what had fallen from the noblituke who had just sat down. The noble duke while showing that the property tax would not press so severely on the owners of real property as the income tax had entirely lost sight of the fact that the landed interest would be subject to both at the same time. (Hear, hear.) He wished also to point out that while it had been stated on the other side of the house that the middle classes of this country did not settle their property, the noble duke had just stated that the first object of the measure was to levy the tax upon the personal property of the industrial classes. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished observations on what had fallen from the lord. The noble and learned lord had said that the form meeadkeleaernfeewd nob te le and the duty Govern ment was the combination of the income taxe_the s y stem foun dation of the system of finance proposed by the on successions, but the particular charac ter f provision for action of the one should ultimately make was not only that they should not act together, but that for the abolition of the other. (Hear, hear.) It had been admitted that it was not ex p edient to carr y on direct taxation furt her than it at present extended, and he would ask their lordships, where was it more natural to impose direct taxation than upon those who w ere enabled to exercise the great privilege of so ciety—that of succeeding to property?—and what more natural than that they should be called upon to pay it at the moment when the succession was enjoyed. He had heard with extreme surprise the statement that this tax was aimed at any particular class in this country; but in his conscience he believed that it had been aimed equally at all classes. He did not consider that the posi tion of the owners of land would be impaired by rendering them amenable to the same law as their fellow-subjects ; on the contrary, he believed that it would materially strengthen them. (Hear, hear.) It was not to exemp tions from burdens that the great families of this country owed their present position. Could any one imagine that his noble friend at the head of the peerage, the Duke of Norfolk, the end of a long line of ancestors, enjoying the same importance as they did, owed his high position to his having escaped payment of the legacy duty ? It was not upon any such grounds as that that the fortune of the aris tocracy of this country had depended. It had rested upon the prosperity of the country, and its free and glorious in stitutions. Would these great families and landed pro prietors gain nothing by this system of finance? He would assert that their gain was infinitely greater than the value of any legacy duty which they would be called upon to pay. (Hear, hear.) Their gain would be what it was the object of this system of finance to maintain —namely, th increase in the prosperity, the industry, and the Pl:od a : e o n ' tion of the country. (Hear, hear.) Who that 110 4 could doubt the experience of the last three or four y that, so far as the landed proprietors we re -ea e rs ouc.e. increase in the general prosperity was not infini t ely more important and compensating than any amoun t s ta xation r e t_ 1? a s retrospective. spective act. But all taxation upon l a nd o w were the stamp which they might bear ? He was told th was a retro. The income tax was retrospective ;es b told that if landed duties. But was he, therefore, d overturned and affected The Poor Law Act for Irelan d property were affected by a tax, itt°was not to be imposed? times greater than any effect settlements to an extent te - to confiscation, in some cases, Poor Law amoun ted likely to be produced b y Irish tax. The result of the settlements and annu ities ; but, lordships house , when that act passed of marriage through their o" it did not occ ur to any one to propose that all pro perty under se ttl em ent should be exempt fr om the Pe t , the power of Par liament u ltimately to make its selection and to decide ra tion of that act. It would b whether they would adopt this tax or continue the income tax ; and in the meanwhile the revenue derived from the tax would relieve the people of burdens which affected the industry of the country. He considered the system of finance of which this bill was a part as a sound system, be• cause it left the prosperity of the country-at liberty to in crease, and gave security that only one great direct duty need be preserved when the present income tax expired. Their lordships then divided. The numbers were— For the amendment—content -68 Not content 4..0 lO2 Majority for the Government —34 In reply to a question from the Earl of DEBBY, The - LORD CHANCELLOR said the amount of duty` payable on real estate and on settled personal estate would be exactly the same as was now paid on bequeathed, r: oonal estate. If the noble earl should discover that 20aVVV% f _ Prices say. 152 34xd 33 tixd 2} if 3 / 1 81i 1 61 10i i 171