The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-16 00:00:00

St so,- ig any . ;ree to lonour of the en re 'ought el).— ies of If the to the Bill which mart of re.•- D mart at the ought r cirr any )ound irevait I that nowir ~ctiou. which to do stated ;great which ended f the :h he ~com ►thing te ob th the .vor it ie ipa- this, belief which y to loda it the .quer such istal short t was d the tated Par-. .sure I oub t 'dent that rents they done !d to e .at re nt of and Lking fur -1,1 hem cient hem, 'very m to ition ssess un- n a Po- r's 1.1 3 ea sure *as ever regarded as an exception to the rule and not the rule itself, and he could only propose to refer to it on the special merits of the case,and :not on the general principle. He, however, was not so wedded to general principles, but in certain 'cases where great distress was experienced from 'depression of the markets, and other temporary causes, he would be content directly to resort to a loan where it could be immediately applied to the relief of the sufferers ; under adequate secu rities for the repayment. Without such securi ;--,ties he could never sanction the advance of a loan. He, however, contended that it was quite a dif ferent thing to make an advance in this way to the commercial interest, from dealing with the agricultural world, combining as it did the in terests of cultivators and proprietors. It had been a consideration with Government whe ther relief might be afforded by a loan so ap plied as to relieve the farmer from bringing his stock prematurely to market. This bad been one of the chief causes of distress : the farmer having had his rent reduced by his landlord, that the latter might get something regularly paid, was compelled to take his stock to market in order to make up his rent, and to pay the interest on money borrowed at a time when the market was kept down by the mass of produce thrown on it from all quarters. In corroboration of this state ment, he could add that the quantity of corn re cently brought to the London market had been double what had ever been brought before. On due consideration it had not been thought right to attempt offering that sort of relief to which he had alluded, but he stated the attention of Go-, vernment to have been given to it, as he felt that they would not have done their duty had they not looked to every expedient that held out a chance of removing the distress. But acting on , a more limited view it was thought by Govern . ment that considerable advantage might result from adopting a measure that would diminish the local pressure under which the agriculturist, now, in many instances, laboured. Though it was difficult to deal with landlords, impossible to deal with tenants in their individual capacities, yet it might be practicable to advance sums to parishes on the credit of the parochial rates, which, advanced to them in their corporate cha racters; and used for corporate purposes, might be the means of affording relief to all classes.— The Government therefore would ,not object to -employ a large portion, if not the whole of the advance to be made, in the way alluded to. His Right Hon. Friend would, on a future night, sub mit a proposition to the House for enabling the Commissioners of Public Works to apply relief on amore extensive scale,, by advancing sums to parishes on the credit of their rates, to be repaid in four or five years—(Hear, hear !)—not ex ceeding the amount of one year's assessment.— This mode of proceeding would, in his opinion, afford relief; but he should confess that Ministers would be happy if Government could see their way to a more direct mode of assisting the agriculture of the country. There was only one other great branch of this subject to which be had to call the attention of the House; and he should think the Government would have taken a very imperfect survey of the state in which the agri culturist was placed, if, after the view opened to them by the Committee who sat last year, they had not turned their attention to that subject— he meant the system of protecting duties. He had fairly stated in the last Session, that though • he did not oppose the appointmeht Of the Com mittee, he could not see his way through it so as to be enabled to hope that its labours would prove beneficial to the country. He had feared the contrary, and was therefore against the in quiry, because he thought,it had been called for . on no solid view of , the question, but on a devia tiou from all those principles which it was most essential to the general interest to maintain, and likely therefore•but to terminate in delusion. He was happy to say that the result had not corres ponded with the apprehensions which he had en teitained. If the Committee had done no other good, their labours had had the effect Of leading the public to view this question in its proper light. A much more correct idea was taken of it now than formerly. He believed the period of delusion to be rapidly passing away. A more sound opinion was formed now than had existed hit year. Both the great bodies which had sup 'posed they had separate interests, but which he had ever considered to have one common inte rest, he meant the manufacturing and the agri cultural classes, now saw that they had been in error. It' was at length understood that it was as little the interest of the agricultural classes to impose high prices on the manufacturers, as it wasthe interest of the manufacturing body to break down the agricultural classes, their best 'customer's in the market, by reducing their prices lo low that they could not purchase the produce of manufacturing industry. He had ever looked on these two great classes as having but one interest, and the only difficulty was to make them see the central points ; where the welfare of each became blended with that of the other. He - thought it an auspicious circumstance for the coun try that the errors which had prevailed on this subject were no more. Protecting duties, or the want of them, could have nothing to do ' with the present distress, as the farmers were protected Trom the importation of foreign corn, up to 80 shillings, while the market price was but 50. After the Report which had been laid on the table—after the suggestions which had been thrown out, he felt that Government would blink ' the guestion, and fail in their duty; if they were not to propose the revival of the Agri cultural Committee to the re-consideration) of their Report. He begged that it might not be supposed, from what he was. about to say, that he Was inclined to favour a new Corn Bill. Such was not his' object, and it would be remem bered that he had already argued against the idea that immediate relief could be afforded. — Hut after the view of the subject opened to that House by the Report of the Committee, he wished the Report to be re-considered for the purpose of ascertaining whether some modification might not be suggested that would cure the evils ad mitted to belong to the existing law, and to pre vent those iniurions consequences, which ) though , not felt now, might possibly be experienced at some future period. He was not disposed to let loose for discussion the abstract principle of the corn laws, on which he knew there were such various opinions, some being disposed to favour a perfectly free trade in corn, while others claimed for the English farmer a greater mono poly than he at present enjoyed. He wished to look at the present law, and with due regard to existing interest, to protect the country against those evils to which it was admitted on all hands to be exposed. These evils were of such size and magnitude as to demand the most serious consideration. At present, if for the shortest possible period the corn were ever so little above a certain average, it made all the difference be tween perfect monopoly and the `most unqualified supply of foreign corn, which might be forced into the country in a way which it was frightful to contemplate. He put the case that the ave rage on the 15th of August should exceed by the smallest trifle the priCe of eighty shillings per quarter, the effect of a single penny would be to open the ports to the corn of the whole world for the ensuing three months, with the single qualification, that at the end of six weeks that might be excluded which came not from beyond the Oder and Bidassoa. But in the course of that six months, all the corn in Europe might be ware housed, in this country. That only could be ex eluded, which, if the parties interested used any management at all, would be in England in the first or second week. Admitting, as he did, the severe distress experienced by the agricultural classes in thid country, he desired that it might not be supposed that the people of other countries were revelling in all the delights of flourishing agriculture and successful - commerce. We were suffering but in a small degree compared with the cultivators of other countries. The cultiva tor in America and on the seabdard of the Con tinent was worse off, and the distress was still greater in the interior. He had it on the autho rity of one, whose name, if mentioned, would at once command the attention of the House, that the distress in the interior of Germany was such, that in . Silesia many proprietors in the last year had thought their produce not worth col lecting, and the finest crops had been suffered to rot on the ground. When the whole world was convulsed, let it not be supposed that we were the only sufferers, while the situation of so many others was much worse than our own. To return to his argument on the importance of supplying some modifications to the present bill, he would take the case of the late season. At one period of it the weather was such, that it was likely the ports would be opened. Corn had risen above the average, but the weather having improved, it rapidly descended. 'When he (the Marquis of Londonderry) passed through Gran tham corn was selling at 100 shillings the quarter. He would put it to the House, wheat now being 50 shillings the quarter, what might have' been the situation of the country if the unfavourable weather had continued.a little longer, so as to raise the averages to that pfice which would have . opened the ports for thiee months. In ordinary times the present law might not be objection able, but the present period must. be regarded as extraordinary. Europe was now in a most disordered state with respect to its corn trade, and therefore more than ordinary precautions became necessary. 'He thought it right to call the attention of 'the - House to this subject, though at present, till the subject had been con sidered by those intelligent understandings which had been applied to it before, he should not open any particular course of measures. He should rather state what he would not do than what he would recommend to be done. He was decidedly against raising the duty on the importation of corn, but he could wish to see such an afrangement made as should admit more gradually a supply of Foreign corn, so as to supply." the wants of the country without overwhelming it with agri, cultural produce. He was especially anxious to provide a double average, which furnishing an efficient check to unrestrained importation in the first six weeks where this was desirable, would better regulate the supply. With respect to the warehousing system, he wished it to un dergo examination. Though he was convinced that from this system no fraud 'had arisen, or at any rate so little, that it could not be regarded as contributing Materially to 'produce the existing distress - , yet for other reasons he was led to believe that the survey was not made with sufficient exactness and regularity. He thought it important both for this country and for foreig n countries that every Gazette should state wh at was the amount of corn in w arehouse, as well as the quimtities just brought in or carried out.—(Hear, hear o—Though he was well aware of the difficulties in the way of applying public money to encourage the stowing up of foreign corn, yet growing out of the artificial system of our corn laws, he thought he saw something like a necessity for interfering, to prevent, if possible, the transition from a scanty supply to the op posite extreme—a perfect glut. 'lt might on consideration appear politic to hold out some encouragement to stowing 'up English corn when at a very low price ; the encourage ment not to be more than equal to the in terest of the mone - y that might lie dead for a time. Were corn thus laid up for a period, he would propose that th,e owner should be at liberty to take, it to market when he pleased ; but if he did this before wheat gained a certain price, the spe culation would be his own, and he should re ceive nothing from the public. This was an arti ficial measure, hut the whole system of our Corn Laws was artificial, and therefore it might, not 'be very objectionable on that account. He begged pardon for thus detaining the House, but he had felt that he should not do his duty had he omitted to state his views in proposing to revive the Agricultural Coinmittee of last year. He now called upon the House to maintain those prin ciples of good faith which no nation had ever de viated from without tasting, and that at no distant period, the bitter fruits of such a want of political morality. lie felt the cause wag'sacred; add" that, in defending it, he stood on consecrated ground. However feeble his - powers might 'be', hoWever impossible it might be for him to recall the elo-I quence of that voice which was once raised to establish that system which. the Hon. and Learn ed Gentleman now proposed, to destroy—how ever vain the hope that he could carry back the House to those feelings inspired by the language of Mr. Pitt, when establishing the Sinking Fund; he laid the foundations for that prosperity which the country had subsequently attained, and which had carried them through the struggle now gone . by, from which we had emerged with such sur passing glory : he was confident that he lived in a country which admired Mr. Pitt's principles and venerated his name. Looking 'up to him, they would not now blast the hope which he had inspired, and cover themselves with ignominy, by tearing down the system which that great man had esta blished. He (Lord Londonderry) never would believe that the Commons 'of England would .act such a part—he never would believe that they who had gone with Mr. Pitt through the war—who had so firmly clung to the prin ciples which fell from his dying . lips when speaking of the state of the country he loved, the country which he had saved—(Hear, hear, hear !)—he never would believe that the Com mons of England, who had remained firm to his principles and' their duty, notwith standing the ' gloomy forebodings of the Gentlemen opposite, who had contributed all that was in their power to bring them into discredit and retard ,their triumph, he never would believe that they who bad thus persevered till they had gained all they bad contended for— the emancipation of Europe, anti chained its Despot to that rock where he remained till the day of his death, would now be seduced by the eloquence of the Honourable and. Learned Gen tleman, or by that of those who surrounded him, though ten times 'greater than it was, to give up that system, and abdicate those principles which had carried the country through the late 'tre mendous war, with glory never to be surpassed and never to be tarnished, but by ail act of their Own, like that which they had lately been called upon to adopt.—(Loud cheering.)—He knew - that, however - feebly he expressed himself, he could conceive what would be the feelings of the descending spirit of Mr. Pitt, could his atten tion again rest on earthly affairs, if be beheld the British House of Commons engaged in debating whether or not the Sinking Fund should continue to exist. In the case supposed,The shade of Mr. Pitt, anxious still for the welfare of his country, would experience not dismay, but disgust, at its being proposed that those who had acted . on his principles so long, should now be invited to desert them, now when the difficulties which the country had to encounter were trilling compared with those which had been already surmounted.— (Hear, hear !)—For leis own part, he was well con tent to leave this great question to, that to which be never feared to confide what concerned the honour and welfare of the country—the wisdom and justice of Parliament.—(Hear.)---He had no dread on the subject—he was confident that those principles would triumph stir[, and that the House of Commons would add to the glory which already belonged to their name, that of consecrating anew those political doctrines which had saved thenation by sustaining public credit, and preserving the national faith inviolate, on which the fame of the British. Empire had been founded, and on which its greatness must rest to the latest posterity.—(Loud cheering.)—Now the Noble Marquis then observed, that he shottldmove for certain papers and estimates. On Monday he should move for the renewal of the Agricultural Committee, and on a future day his Right Houourablit Friend would bring in the Bill for a Loan of Exchequer Bills, and when the Malt Bill came before the House, he would move to omit certain words, which would have ithe effeet of taking off the additional duty. He then moved for a series of documents on the sub ject of the Income, Expenditure, and Debt of the country, to shew the comparative amount of each in the last two years- Mr. BROUGHAM.asSured thd House that he had listened to the able statement of the Noble Lord with 'a degree of at tention and anxiety which he conceived to be due to the im portance of the question then before them; and so - far his at tention was repaid. He had now to congratulate the House ori the change that had that night taken place in the sentiments of the Noble Lord, 'and 'the amendment' that appeared -to have taken place- in his tone and manner, as contrasted with his man ner on a former night, when he had treated those subjects with a levity that astonished many Members of that House. Such was the change and improvement effected in the Noble , Lord's mind in the short space of four days, that he seemed to abandon all the tenets and invidious comparisons , which he , had thrown out on Monday night, - arid et length condescended to apply his mind with gravity to . the. great subject then under consideration.. One, indeed, would now almost sup pose that the, Noble Lord had a suspicion that his plan ap peared, rather tin a dim light—that, it was surrounded with difficulty, and had a veil thrown over it which could . not be easily seen through... For his own-part, he (Mr. Brougham) _could not, as yet, perceive its distinct features. But so far as he was able to see it, the plan appeared to be somewhat of this nature :—first, that, the great power on which the country ~must depend was the.pp,wer of nature; and, in the next place, that relief was only to be obtained by, trifling reductions. One part of it was to afford the trivial relief Of taking off a shilling of the duty of every bushel of malt. The Noble Lord had re presented him (Mr. B.) as stating that the greatest misery pre-' vailed among some classes of people.' What he had alluded, to was the misery that prevailed among the manufacturers in-the years 1816 and 1817. A lesser misery now prevailed among those classes,.and the distress was chiefly confined to the agri cultural classes, which was now as great as was that of the ma, nufeeturers in 1816 and 1817.' He (Mr. B.) had asserted that there was no increase of consumption ; but the Noble Lord now stated that, although there had not been an increased consump tion Of malt, there was an increase in the consumption of substi tutes. And what were those substitutes:? , Did the Noble Lord mean to say that a substitute had been found in the increased use Of brickbatS?—(Loud laughter.)—Then soap was said to be a substitute; bat that was no answer to the complaints of the agri culturist.. At last, however, the Noble Lord came to the great substitute of all, which, was tea. Now this, was the very substi tute whiCh he had most to Complain of ; 'for it appeared that in stead of the good 'old custom once practiced in England of drink ing the wholesome and nutritive beverage called beer, the peo ple were getting into. the practice of using a beverage not near so wholesome; a beverage which was not aßritishproduct, and the extended use of which - gave no relief to the British agricultu rist, however beneficial it might be to the .agriculturists of China. -(Loud laughter.)..---With the exception of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the East India Company were the only per sons in England who . derived.henefit from the increased con sumption of tea : for it did_ not cause the cultivation of one acre of British ground, and therefore it was nothing to the Bri tish agriculturist. He (now had a . 'word or two to say on- the -misconception. which the. Noble Lord apPearal to labour un der respecting industry and profits. The Noble Lord had laid it down as a principle that the whole of the taxes paid by a farmer amounted. to one-seventh part of' his .rent._ H e had indeed heard of calculators who dealt largely in figures, and.who were more fanciful in fiction even than poets ; but this calcula tion of the Noble Lord Was' more extravagant than any thing he had,ever heard of before. • Indeed 'nothing could be :more abstruse than. calculations on taxes ; but the Noble ford, with his wonted agility, leaped over the difficulties attending this subject',' and by his' new sYsfetribf vulgar fractiOns, performed a defeat that covered him - .(Mr. B.) with -admiration. Another position of the Noble Lord, still more unaccountable, was that the reduction of taxes could afford no relief to the suffering peo ple :—(Hear.)—But he did not say a word of the effect _which ' taxes must have in raising the price of labour, of diminishing profits, and of increasing the prices to the consumer. Indeed he called upon the House to look to the powers of resurrection, (Loud.laug,hter) ; he told them that every thing was in a re viving state • and .advanced principles of political economy, every word of which was a , complete satiee on the country. The Noble Lord had produced a-certain. system .t, but he (Mr. B.) had done no such thing : he only called on the House last Monday night to correct the system that already existed, which could only be done by diminishing the burdens of the people, and not by the adoption of a Sinking Fund e which could give no relief whatever ; yet the Noble Lord maintained, that if the whole mass of taxes were annihilated, the people could not then obtain that relief which they had a right to look to in the pre sent state of their sufferings. The people had .a sight to look up to their Representatives as the parties who were to relieve them from all burdens. that were not.necessary for the public service; and even if distress were altogether removed from_ the country, he would still say that no unnecessary burden should be laid on them; that. Government could have no rightto keep up a single soldier,to keep one man on board aship,or one in any office, whom the situation of the country did not render neeessary.--; An appeal was made to the justice of. Parliament to remove those cruel sufferings which their constituents were enduring—( H ear, hear !)—He .considered_every thing like a trifling reduction as an insult to the country—Wear, hear !)-11e looked for a-large reduction of taxes ; the more they reduced the burdens the more they would act in the strict line of their duty. The Noble Lord distiosed one part of his project, which . consisted in making a saving of two millions, winch was to be added to the Sinking Fund, so as to' make the whole amount to two millions and a quarter. This ho did as the proxy of his Friend the Chancel lor of the Exchequer. On this point, however, he was again at issue with the Noble Lord. But he agreed with the Noble Lord that faith should be kept with the public creditor, and how had he recommended any thing contrary to that principle ? He never recommended any thing of the kind ; but they must, eventually,, go into that course, if they admitted the delusion of the Noble Laid as to a Sinking Fund. Until the necessity arrived let faith be preserved—at the same time let every possie ble reduction be made ; and he hoped the necessity would never arrive. The Noble Lord referred to the high authority of a man who long ruled over the country; he never disputed the transcendent talents of that man ; but the House must recollect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Lord had pulled the first stones out of Mr. Pitt's great edifice in 1813, and left nothing of the Sinking Fund but the name—(Hear, hear !)—That great man (Mr. P.) would have spurned with indignation.thc little plans of his underlings who followed him. His name should never have been in the lips of those men at the time they took away that Sinking Fund which they spoke so much of now. In 1813 it was destroyed by the pre sent Chancellor of the Exchequer; and instead of a Sinking Fund of 21 millions, it was at last reduced to an uncertainty whether there was any Sinking Fund at all. To say, then, that the Gentlemen on his side were the enemies of the Sinking Fund was one of the greatest delusions, whether arithmetical or poetical, which ever was broached in that House. Dr. Price was the inventor of the, Sinking Fund which Mr.- Pitt adopted, ahcl which went on the principle of compound interest. It did not appear from the Noble Lord's plan, whether any of the Civil List, or any of the offices or sinecures, were to be touched. —(Hear !)—What, then, became of his retrenchments. There was a little heard of superannuations, amounting to shoot 150,0001., and that was all that was to be gained by retrench ment, and gained to the comforts of people who were starving: ' for want. This was all that was to be done towards diminish ing the enormous patronage of the Crown. He had heard of 10 per cent. being intended to be taken from all salaries, not as a seving, but as an insurance. That might be a great deal too much V , take from some ; even 5 per cent. would be a * g reat injustice inflicted on men who had embarked their whole lives and their health in the offices they held. In other cases it might be a great deal too little, particularly in the higher offices, and utterly incompatible with the just demands of the people, and would be a complete mockery to them.— Why could not the great offices of state be filled merely for the honour of them and the patronage, without any salaries?— They might be said to prop and adorn the Crown ; and they would not adorn it the less by acting without any pay, and these places would be better if no salaries were attached to them ; and they would be more sought after if not m e re than half the salaries were attached to them, and the holders of the places would serve their 'country better. Not a farthing more ought to be wrung from the people than was absolutefy necessary for the safety of the country. There were some offices which he thought might not to be touched at all, or touched with great delicacy, he meant the judicial offices—(Hear !)—When a man was made a Judge he was taken away from a lucrative profes sion. He knew one who by being made a Judge abandoned half his income at the Bar. Those men were an incalculable be nefit to the country ; and in every t oint of view in which they could be considered, no part of their incomes ought to be dimi nished. Although he had trespassed so long on the indulgence of the House, he could not terminate without some reniarki on the concluding observations Of the Noble, Marquis. It appeared that the next, and perhaps the most notable part .of the Noble Lord's plan, was, to borrow four millions, to be lent by the Bank. That sum was to be disposed of in a way that was not very clearly explained by, the Noble Lord; it had been so im perfectly -explained, ,that many Members had' not been able to catch even a glimpse of the Noble Lord's meaning: . if he understood the Noble Lord correctly—should he be wrong the Noble Lord would set him right, the lending of the four mil lions would apply to a two-fold purpose. In the first place, a portion of the sum was to be applied to the purchase of Stock, for the purpose of keeping up the price of Stock ; 'it was to be another pulley, by means of. which to support the market ; secondly, what was not so applied, was to go in aid of the poor's rates. —How the application of money to such an object could afford any relief to the country, or even to the parties them selves, he was unable to comprehend.—(Hear, hear.).The Noble Lord seemed to be unaccountably afraid Of 'a torrent of gold setting in upon the country. To apply the Noble Lord's own figure, lie appeared to have a perfect "hydrophobia" of gold,—(llear, and laughter.)--He seemed -to apprehend that the setting in of such torrent would e produce ravages of which no roan could imagine the-extent. 'He (Mr, B.) thought there was no ground to dread the effects of such a torrent and its accompanying raveges. When the setting-in was, gold would take a contrary direction; the workings would continue till the gold found its lave', and that result was' as certain from the unalterable principles of the subject, as were the Noble Lord's 'unchangeable principles of political economy. Even supposing the Bank to have its coffers filled with gold—though why it should be treasured he could not tell—he could not an ticipate .those evil effects which appeared to be .contemplat ed by the overflowing of the Noble Lord's torrent. Let them pour Out their gold -as they might, so long as paper was not the exclusive medium, while continued convertible, it was beyond the powers of all the Noble Lord's financial plans, aided as he might by . Exchequers, to keep up gold beyond its just level. The level it would most assuredly find. At to the latter part. of the plan, it was stillworse in its prin ciple. The first part of the plan was nugatory, the lattereaor 'tion of it was worse still—it was mischievous. It was neither more nor less than to lend money to every parish that chose to apply, and - thus, in fact, encourage extravagance.—(Hear, hear !)—The sound of such a proposition had beento him Most marvellous, to one too, who was not albeit unused to be compelled to listen to most marvellous propositions. The remedy for. the benefit of the Country Gentlemen—for that was the shape which the plan first took—was not of so 'miraculous a charac ter. Could there be an individual who did not see in a twinkling, that if the rates were relieved this year, they must be doubled next year ?—(Hear, -hear !)—There would be , the principal to refund as well as the interest. The original plan was ridiculous and absurd ; it had been scouted by those who first ventured to think of it ; it had been abandoned by the original proposer : but even that scouted plan, 'of lending Exchequer Bills to the country gentlemen, was not so bad as the one now submitted ley the Noble Lord to relieve the various parishes. To what could it lead but. to a wasteful and careless expenditure,. for the money would get into the hands of overseers, Whose office lasted only, during the .year ? The Noble Lord at length reached the climax on which he. perched \ 'his plan. He was not only to run through the parishes, lending'any that would borrow—a mode of relief that would impose on such parishes double rates• for the succeeding year; but the Noble 'Lord was also to extend relief in aid of public works-- 7 (Hear, liear.)—What public works were meant—what public works merited such species of aid ?—(Some remark was made across the table.) He did net wonder that some hesitated to believe it possible that any such proposition would , be made. It had been made—what he related he had heard with his own ears. What the public,. works could be he could not imagine, except there was, some. intention to carry Into effect the plan proposed by the Noble Lord at a former ' period, " to - dig holes one day and fill them up the next."— (Hear, and a laugh.) —lf they thought of public works, it ought to be only when the parishes couldafford them ; it was very rare; indeed, that such 'works could be warranted under any other circumstances. If parishes contemplated iinprovements, it would be far more advisable to compel them not to think of carrying their public works into execution tißthey could afford to pay - for them. If they were stimulated to commence such improvements before they had their own money to meet • the _expenditure, and the offer of Government-to lend would ope. rate as such stimulus, who was there that did not see, that et would inevitably induce parish officers to squander Money on, what, 'after all, perhaps might only be imaginary im . proveenents ? Who. was there that did not • see that it was _calculated 'to create Parochial extraiagance, and 'was that de sirable, when the 'country had 'so long suffered. under piiblic profusion ?—(Hear, hear.) . —Would it relieve the country, thus to create in every parish that spirit of profusion, of which the .. a . • ..- Government had so long been guilty, shewed on a ! jbaier evening, by reference to the Finance Committees' Reports ? (Hear, hear.)—He had already .detained the House too long ; hut, if he were to encroach on as ;much snore of their tine; it would be impossible to shew in stronger colours the injuriotes, if not absurd character, of the Noble Lord's Plans of relief . even the Noble Lord's own statements carried thou own refotation with them. He should therefore not trespass forger on titeltbuse with any detailed examinatiorner the Noble Lord's plan.. ;Be fore he concluddd, hOwever, he earnestly implored the ,Molise to trust to themselves—to take .the management of ureic own and the people's affairs into their own hands—.andnot to gust the management of themto the Ministers, if the desire i were to save the country. If they Willed it so,, they migV.st4l.con tinue to. repose confidence, in the Ministers, as far as .carrying ointhe Administration was concerned;. but let them take into their own hands the management of their own affairs. God forbid that any human being should covet the places 'of Mini sters! ! He thought none could be so desperate. as to ;think of succeeding them: He told the House two year ago to drive the Ministers from their BIN against the Queen ; he now called on the House to compel the 'Ministers -to adopt such measures as would really relieve the 'Country.— Let not the, House be alarmed—that if the Ministerei had such a compulsion forced on them,. they would give up their places,;—no such change was to be' fearod. They . might continue their confidence in the Ministers if they .pleased; all he desired of the Housc.e.was, to cempel the Mint ,nisters to deserve their confidence. • Therefore he called on the • House to. compel, the Ministers to adopt measures that would relieve the country.. lie called on.the house to be.wise ere it was too late; he implored therri to be wise in time, if they really desired to save that public credit which the system of Ministers threatened, and was moselikely to destroy. Let the country gentlemen, the gentlemen of Esc -land, only pursue such course, and they could do it without deviating from what they had pledged themselves to perform; and he would answer for it their votes would IA successful,, as well as that the Ministers would .keep their places. Let not the country gentlemen be afraid— the Ministers would not think of moving. They had only to tell the Ministers that there must be redections--and, he would answer for it, down they would , come next day with the de sired reductions; only bid them to perform such. work,' and perform it they would. , The Ministers bad been Ace long listened to—too long believed. It now became-the House to think and act for themselves.; they had tow long trusted to enspirics—they had too long confided in men Who had only to bring forward the name of Napoleon to get the money and the gold out of the people's pockets ; they had trusted to • men who only deemed it necessary to say, " Jacobin," and " Radical," as an apology for taking away the people's liberties. Their authority for what they did was perpetual alarm ; their specific was endless evaeuation.-o(Cheers •and laughter.)—At such a moment, he again solemnly implored the House to bear in mind the importance of - the vote they were about to give. If they. desired that the Ministers should reduce, that reduction Should be forced upon Ahem. In. his estimation, the vote of that night would be equal in importance .to all the interests of the country—to any decision that had taken place within the last thirty years : and lie therefore hoped that his prayer to them would not be vain, inimploring them, if they desired to. rescue the country from its difficulties ' to compel the Ministers to adopt measures of reduction.—(Loud cheering.) Mr. HITSKISSOX said,. that from the course,whicb the Hon. and Learned Member had token, this oughf to be con sidered as an adjourned debate upon that which took place the other night. The Hon. and. Learned Gentleman had stated his belief, that in consequence of his speech upon that occasion, his Noble Friend had altered some parts of the plan which he had that night opened to ,the House. Of Isis own personal knowledge, however, Lie could correct the Hon. and Learned Gentleman upon this point, for nu such circum stance had taken place; awl at the same time he must say, that nothing could be in his opinion, as an old Member of Parliament, more irregular and unparliamentary than the mode' which he had adopted of anticipating a statement of the Government, and thea taking the chance of any coincidence upon which to found a charge of having altered their views. After claiming the indulgence of the House,. the Right Hon. Gentleman characterised the speech of the Hon. and Learned Member who preceded him as being made up of erroneous principles, and contradictory references, calculated only to act. upon the feelings and the sufferings of the people, and to hurry the Parliament inte false steps which they could not easily retrace. When. he was speaking of the distress of a large class of the people, he should endeavour to discard ail distinctions of party from Isis mind, notwithstanding the example which had been set by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. Whilst considering of the C.MECS of the distress, and of the remedies to, be applied for' its relief, he did not think it irregular to look back and refer to former periods of distress, from which the country,ha4mappily been delivered. He slid. nut think it 'improper tillrek to such times for the monitory cautions, or guides which they might afford. Souse of the symptoms which the present period exhibited were not unlike those of 1817. It would be remembered... that the manufacturing districts were then in. a state of actual starvation, and the .poor, destitute of food and clothing, were obliged to sell their furniture to procure bread.— In this state their minds had been acted upon by'unprin cipled. agitators, until they committed•fX6RSSeS which.com pelled the Government to resort to coercive measures for the - protection of the public peace. • At that Ono - sleet what was the language used by Gentlemen, who,. during the war, had predicted its failure, and that it would end in national humiliation ? They were then told „it was true we had saved Europe, but we had ruined England. It was impossible.ever to compete with the manufacturers of the Continent, and that, in consequence, the capital of the .eountry yould.seek em ployment elsewhere. At that time, too, the yublie credit was shaken, and an apparently just alarm pervaded the minds of many. Yet, in the midst of. all, the Government. said, that the large capital embarked, and the natural energies of the country, would raise it up from its diffidulties.to a state of renewed prosperity. The event had justified their predic tions. Why did he mention these circumstances now? To ahoy that the arguments used on the opposite side .atthat period, and revived upon the present occasion, were falie and erroneous.. Out of the evil of the distress to which he .had referred arose this good. • The knowledge that time taxation of the country did not weigh down its energies so that:they could not relieve it from tempoiary difficulties. It enlightened us upon the nature of our own resources, and gave us ex perience as to their just and beneficial application. The same natural means. would, be trusted, bring the country 'through the present difficulties and distress -a the Agri cultural interest, with the eventual gain of knowinghetter its true resources and, advantages. The country would . thesa conic out of the trial mightierin its energies and power than before its temporary sufferings were experienced. The causes of those sufferings he thought he had strewn nut to consist iu low prices and an inadequate return. He believed the real causes to he a redundancy of supply. The Right Hon. Mem ber then took a view of the rise and progress of -the extreme rosperity. of Agriculture duling.the war. When they cause to the period of the passing of the first Corn Laws, he thought that was about the point at•which the:produce of the country became greater than its consumption. Those laws were .passed under the supposition (and be had the authority of the Hon. Member. for Essex, Mr. Western, for that tact), that the supply was not equal to the wants of the consumers, and that the average of eighteen shillings was to be the minimum price and not the - maximum. The Bill had, consequently, the unfortunate effect of being one of the causes of the pre sent distress. That there was an increased and increaser consumption clearly evineed•upon all articles which the Ex cise could reach, eonld .not be overturned by pre-conceived theories, or new doctrines, which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was disposed to teach them in.his lectures of four hours the other night, and two to-night, developing entirely new principles of political economy. With regard to the plac of his Noble Friend, if the markets were glutted with double the quantity ofsorn usually brouglet to thein,,and if they rave encouragements to capitalists to go into them and buy that superfluous quantity, it • would be most likely to hays the effect of relieving the.low prices so much complained of. The Right Hon. Gentleman considered it necessary iii years of abundance to adopt means by which the redundancy might benefit the public in years of scarcity. It was nut, however, his intention to dwell on this point; he, however, felt-that a small sacrifice might lead to great public advantage, and.pre vent a great importation from abroad.. The Hon. and : Learned Gentleman dwelt with much triumph on the subjeceof the currency, and before he alluded. to the very extraordinary speech of the Hoa. and Learned Gentleman, he coqJd out avoid noticing his s avement on the Bank Rests iction Committee its 1509. He b• sr.! the Hon. and Learned ,Gesstleinaro wish the House to u. dm-stand ; that in case he had been a Member of that Committee, be might have spared the country much dis tre-s, and that many of the incoveniences complained of might have been obviated. When the • Hon. and Learned .Gen tleman made that statement, he (Mr. Hstskissonfliegnn to • suspect that, in common with other Members ottlia Cum mittee, he had done wrong, and that some compunction was dime for not doing his dusty in the Committee. After.nsoch preparation, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman roll the House gravely, that the origin at all the evils which were the subject of 'complaint was to be traced to the Bank re striction in:1797. That was a wonderful discovery, and a wontleHul concealment. Instead of keeping it concealed in his bosom till. 1322, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, might have declared the fact upon the discinsion of his Right lion. Friend's Bill in 1819, and then what woes and misfortunes had been* kept from the country. The •Hon. and Learned Gentleman went on to chew what had been the _Mint prices of gold since the Bank restriction, ,nearing Another wonder ful discovery, which it was rattier surprising he did not ins part when the subject came before him in a Committee. On