The Sun. — London, England, 1801-12-08 00:00:00

f ROUSE OF PEERS, MONDAY, DEC. 7. HQUSE OF COMMONS. NI 0 15 D 41. D E C IMPERIAL, PARLIAMENT. Counsel. were heard relative to the Scotch Ap_ real, CHARLES StUART, Clerk of the Signet, v. ANDREW MILLER, Deputy Clerk of the Bills : namely; the ATTORNEY GENERAL and Mr.NOLAN ‘ :on the part of the Appellants The further hearing of the Case was dekrrtd ey their Lordships till to. morrow., Some private business was disposed of, and se veral arrangements made with respel to the hear io'g of Appeals.' The Militia,--the Naval Stores, and the Foreign Correspondence Bills, severally went through a Committee of the whole house (Lord WALSINP HAM in the Chair), and were afterwards reported by the Noble Chairman. The Exchequer Loan Bill, the Exchequer Bills Funding Bill, the Provision irnportation Bill, and the Prizes Regulation Bills, were severally brought up from the Commons, by Mr. ALEXANDER, and respeEtiv,ely read a first tiine. One private Bill was brought up, and also read a first time, after which an adjournment took place., At-an early hour, the meeting of a Special or Sc. lefc Committee ;of their Lordships took. place, re_ spotting, as we could colieE}, some informality in the Return from the Crown Office, in Ireland, of the EleCtion of ;a. Representative Irish Peer, in the room of Loft' Rossmo&E, deceased. The subjeCt t we hear,: is to be referred to their Lordships' Coin, mittees of Privileges, on Wednesday next. Mr. ROBARTS presented a Petition from the 103yor and Corporation of the City of Worcester, - raying-that the prohibition on the use of grain in instilling might not be repealed,Ordered to lie on the Table. The Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Prize Goods Bill; were read a third time and passed. An Account was presented from the Customs, of the quantities of grain, meal, flour, and . rice; imported into,' and exported from, Great Britain, from the sth January, r8or; to the zoth Otiober follbwing, di - stipguishing the countries from•and to which the same was imported and exported.—Or dered. to lie on the Table, and to bj printed. , - , Mr. ALEXANDER orougnt up tne Report of the Organzined Silk Bill, which was ,read and agreed • to, and the pill ordered to be read a third time to morrow. STARCH. Mr. N. V AASITTART moved for a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the duties pay_ able upon Stara imported from Ireland into Great Britain ; which being agreed to, and the SPEAKER having left the Chair, Mr. N. VANSITTAR.T said, it was the intention of the At of Union that the Manufadurers of the United Kingdoms should be placed - on the same footing. Starch upon its importation from Ireland into Great Britain, was at present subject to . heavy duty. It must be evident that it was not only stridly just, but perfectly consistent with the Aft of Union, and necessary to carry the intention of that Ad into effed,. that the Manufadurers of Ire land should be 'placed upon the same footing, and _enjoy the same.advantages, as the Manufadurces of -Great Britain. He therefore moved, that it is ex pedient to permit, for a time to be limited, 'the Importation of Starch made in Ireland from rice or potatoes,_ free of duty ; which .being agreed to, the House resumed, and the Report was ordered to in received to-morrow. Mr. N. V , ANSITTAXT moved for an Instrutaion to the Gentlemen appointed to bring in a 13i11 re latiVe to the making of Starch from Rice'or Pota toes, to snake provision according to the above Resolution.—Ordered. SUBSIDY TO PORTUGAL. Mt. ROBSON wished to know whether the sum of 306,0061.. voted to the Queen of Portugal had been paid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the question of the Hon. Gentleniau was not per.. haps perfealy regular ;. he had however no objec ion to answer it. Two-thirds of the money had been applied to the purpose for which it was voted. RETAIL. TRADE IN IRELAND Mr. CORRY presented a Petition from the ile tail Traders of the Borough of Newry, complaining of the existence: of a heavy duty of 6 per cent., upon goods imported there, which in many in stances amounted nearly to 'a Prohibition, and pray ing relief. Mr. CORRY said,'that he should mere ly now move, Thai the Petition should, lie on the Table, with *a view to call the attention of the House to the subjed at a future period. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in not opposing the'MotiOn, he did riot wish it to be understood that . he assented to the prayer of the Petition, as he had not'had an opportunity of eiz amining the sul>je6l. . Mr. CORRY said, he had omitted to state what he wished to be understood, that by presenting the, Petition, he did not pledge himself eithei on the one side or the other. The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table. BREAD. Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, that as upon fur ther consideration, the two first Clauses of the Bill before the I-louse relative to the Assize of Bread, were not adequate to.the object proposed, it was his intention to move for the re-commitment of the Bill; in order that those ClauSes might be with drawn and other Clauses added instead, and as fOrther 'consideration appeared necessary 'upon so 'important a i.irbjea,.he wished the Bill to be print.: ei after it had passed the Cornmittee, and that it night be postponed till after the Rec... The Order , of the Day for the further considera tion of the Bread Bill being then read, " • Mr. Alderman CURTIS moved, that it should be IT—committed.' 'Mr. DENT Wished it to go through the Cum. mittee before the Recess. -Mr. flider . man, CURTIS said,, that was his ob jea, and that the sbouid then be further time for its consideration, as there Was vot sufficient.tirne for that parpose before . the Recss. The House then resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. SHAW LE EYRE in the Chair. Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, he wished to with draw the two first Clauses relative'to the Returns of the Corn, Market, in order that the Average might nor-be taken from the Prices of the Week from Monday to Saturday, but that the ensuing Monday might also be included. • . .`-Sir RICHARD .CARR GLYN said a ' feW words, which we did not distinaly hear. Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, it was.gxpeciient that the Magistrates should have an option to take the Average either from the Prices of the Week from Monday to Saturday, or from those Prices including the following Monday, a considerably greater num ber of Sales taking place on the Monday than on any other day of the week. The present Bill, he said; required considerable pains to render it adequate to the object, and even then, neither it, or any other Bill upon the subjea, could be. made perfea, The Millers and Bakers did not care how high the price of Wheat was, having no inducement to . keep it down. The present . Bill was not held out as a per.: fea Measure, but 'merely as an experiment. Mr. FULLER said, why not abolish the Assize altogether ? He hoped no additional task would be imposed upon Magistrates . ; their labours were al ready too great, ,and he thought it unjust that Any fresh burthens should be imposed upon them. He thought some reward ought .to be conferred upon those who had been fora long time aailie in the ser... vice of the Public. Phe.o IIANCEL LOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no man more than himself revered the condud of Magistrates, but he deprecated the idea of Reward, thrown out by the Hon. Gentleman. • Their con dud , was didated by motives of public spirit ; they' used every exertion to serve their Country, and were rewarded by the approbation of, their con..' science he was sure this was the only reward they looked for or expefted. With respeft to the he should, make a very few observations. He had considered the subjeft much, and he wasxlearly of opinion the present Bill was only an expedient -to get rid of a greater , evil,: by substituting a less. The Aft of GEORGE was less excep tionable than those now . proposed to . be repealed. The latter gad.been found by experience to be in jurious, and he was sure every Gentleman ought to pause before-he afted with a legislative hand upon subjefts like the present. The great objet ,which he thought - .ought to be considered was, ,that getting rid of the Assize. The law of the Assize had obtained for a great number of years, but he must say, it was nothing less than a maximum upon bread. A maximum was founded in impolicy and,iniustice and was the sure forerunner of fa mine when carried to its utmost extent. With re.. sped to Bread, it was true a, maximum was not aftually fixed by the Legislature, but it was left to the discretion of Magistrates. To this, however, he equally objeded, as it destroyed all inducement to keep down the price of Grain and Flour. Far_ mers were induced to ask prices unwarrantably and extravagantly high for their Grain : Mealmen hay. ing no interest to keep down the price of Grain, were induced to ask' unreasonable prices for their Meal, each knowing, that whatever might be the, price, the average and the Assize WAS set accord ingly. In this case how did the Assize operate ? it operated eventually upon the Baker with the' most grinding severity : his profit was reduced as low as possible ,by the Magistrate, for the sake of the Public, ,and he was driven either to adulterate his Bread, or to endeavour to live upon a profit scarcely sufficient for his subsistence. Still worse for the Baker was a time of scarcity ; it was then the pres sure of the times operated most upon the mind of the Magistrate—it was then he decreased the pro fit of the Baker. Public distress made that jus tice which was due to the Baker a secondary con sideration; and those fair profits, which were due to the-latter were unjustly diminished. The more he considered the subject, the more he was sur prized such a system ,had continued so long. He knew that in the year 17 . 7 i doubts had been en tertained by many thinking men of the . propriety of continuing the. Assize ; it was, 'however, then supported on the ground of its being a protedion to the Bakers. He admitted it was a subjeft which' deserved the most serious consideration, involving, as it did, great public, as well as private interests. He was no Party to the Popular cry, nor would he . ever consent to join in holding out men to general obloquy against whom nothing specific was alledg':, ed or proved; It ought,'however, to be the object of the Law to give room for a fair and open com petition, and that Farmers and Mealmen should not be induced to ask an-unreasonable price. He did not mean to go so much at length into the sub. jeft ; he .thought it however advisable that more 'time should be allowed for the consideration of the Bill. He believed that Monopoly and Combination had not had nearly so much effea in raising the markets, as crude and undigested projeds. 'There were many also whose interests were involved, and who would think themselves hardly dealt by if they had not an opportunity Of stating their opinions. He hoped, after the Recess the subjeft would be thoroughly considered. ,Mr.- FULLER explained. Mr. COURTENAY agreed in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that further time ought to be allowed for the consideration' of this subjea.— He was confident, he said, the price of Bread would fall, if the proposed measures were adopted. He thought for the same reason for which this was postponed, further, time ought also to be given for the consideration -of the Bill relative to the Dis_ tille ries. Mr. HAWKINS PROWNE perfealy agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER). It blid ' been suggested to him, that if the Assize was abAl:ilied there should still he an Assize with respeft to weight and quality. Mr. FULLER and the CHANCELLOR of the Ex- CHEQUER severally explained. ' • • yomvsioN likewise agreed with the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. ' The Hon. Gentleman who brought in the Bill, had, he said, mentioned Monopoly and , CombinatiOn, but the CornMittee who had closely and laboriously investi gated the subjed,, could fiTid no proof whatever of any effet resulting from Monopoly or Combination, injurious to the Public. The SECRETARY at WAR said, as it fell to his.lot be in the Cbair of that Committee, he felt it his duty to say, that the Committee did discover abuses in the State Of the Corn Market, which re quired the interference of that House. • He hoped measures would be taken after the ,1-3.ece,ss; in pur .suance of the Report of the Committee, to enlarge the Corp.Matket, -and to prevent the Fatiors from dealing their Own account. He would fairly state, however ; that lie thought all the measures taken by that House to alleviate the late'Scarcity, had only tended .to aggravate the-evil, with the exception of the magnificent Bounty given upon the Importation of Grain. But he considered the Assize of Bread as an evil, and .he hoped •to- live la see the day when it, would be entirely abolished; '`There were, however, -many circumstances to .be consider_ ed, and many .pre.cautionS to be takeni amongst the most prominent of which was the ensuring a real Competition amongst•the Millers and Bakers. This, was more 'than • ever • necessary, when it was con sidered that the Trade of the Millers was-in few hands, and the Bakers, in, a great measure, their Servants. If Some precautions were not taken to ensure this competition, the abolition of the Assize might only tend to aggravate the evil. .-Rethought it would be found expedient to allow any_ persons whatever to make-and sell Bread, , Mr. JONHSTON and the S.ECRETARY at WAR severally explained. Mr. Alderman CURTIS said, he had not at tempted to. raise .any unnecesiary• cry against - , Mo nopoly and Combination, but be bad broadly, stated, that every :body was interested in raising the Market, and no one was interested in keeping it down; This .was what induced . him ._to_come for ward with the Measure now :before - .the House.—, The Corn trade was in few hands, ancriCwasin the power of six or seven persons to raise,. or depress it at their pleasure. It was against this the present Measure was direeted. He wanted to create a Com. petition, which should conduce to the benefit of the Public, by lowering the Price of the Commodity. Sir WILLIAM PULTENEY said, no subjeft could : be' more iinportant than the present. The Hon. Gentletpan (Mr. Alderman CURTIS) had spoke of .making a competition ; it was impossible, however, to raise a competition without sufficient capitals. If the Assize was abolished all at once, the trade being at present in few hands, and there not being sufficient capital to create a competition, it would be in the power of those persons .'thus monopolizing the trade, to bring dis - tress and fa. mine into the Capital, and the Assize must of neces sity, be.almost immediately re-established, and then would he confirmed for ever. He thqught it would be by far the berter way to enaCt that the Assize should be abolished - at a certain fixed period, in order that in the mean time capitals might he pre 7 pared to ensure that competition which was 'the objed of the present measure. If competition was once- Tartly Cata6llshccr — /t .laarst - vpc-late av/cri whether grain was dear or cheap. , If it was to be declared now that the Assize should he abolished some time next year, there Would then be ample time for persons to prepare capitals to engage in a comp,etition, which would thus be established, in_ dependent of the influence of those who at present controled the market. Sir R. C. GLYN said, lie shiOuld'be glad to see the Assize upon Bread taken away, because it would give room for fair and open Competition.. With respect to the Bill before the House, it ought only to be adopted as an experiment, becanse he thought it below the dignity of i?iirliament 'to recur back to the Act of GEO. 11. which was allowed to be very imPerfea,' and which was stated in the Preamble to Mr. Alderman Skinner's MI, to have been prof dative of many inconveniencies. Mr. DENT expressed his hope that this business would not be decided upon without the fullest in vestigatlorr. The plan of Competition, if it could be carried into full effcl, would, he had no doubt, be produetive of good ; but he doubted whether it was practicable. The plan which appeared to him the best calculated to remedy the present evil, was to establish ,Mills in every Parish, arid to have a Miller employed by the Parish. It had been said, that prejudices ,had gone forth about. Monopoly and Combination, &c. for which there was no founda. tion ; but he was strongly inclined to believe, that whatever obloquy had fallen upon a certain class of men, they had drawn it upon themselves by their own conduct. It was wrong, perhaps, to give way to prejudices against any set of men, but that great dishonesty was practised there could riot be the smallest doubt. At all events, it was a most se yious consideration (as had been stated by the won. thy Alderman) that the food of the Capital, as far as related to Bread, was in the hands of six or seven men. Whatever determination the• House came to upon this momentous subject, it should only be after the most mature deliberation, and he was .sure that the Public bad the most implicit confidence in the , wisdom of that House. The SOLICITOR GENERAL congratulated the House that this important subjeft was now likely to' be maturely investigated, and whatever the deter mination of the House might be, he hoped it would he founded upon a liberal and an enlarged view of the subjea, and upon evidence obtained from all quarters, without prejudice against any particular set of men. He hoped that no unfounded jealousies would be entertained against Millers and Mealmen, and that the House would not shut their ears against them ; hut above all, he trusted that the House would not indulge a hope that they could by any, new experiments get rid of the evil of which they' now 'complained ; because he was convinced, that any attempt of the House to cure this inconvenience would only tend to increase it. It was in this view that he considered the plan of the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, for establishing as - many Mills as there were Parishes in the Country, and for multi plying Millers in the same proportion. He was sure when the House, and even the Hon. Gentleman himself, considered this plan maturely, the imprac ticability of it would be manifest. An Hon. Baronet •. S ve i r r y r p j r . ol P )e u r Ll to ßN t:k ir -e )c.,.. opinion that it could only be done after a ve:u 16 '; a s t, e , e a ri;ec t i h to think Assize; i t woule notice. He really differed from the Hon,liiir° l ',.. l ' upon that subject. • The Hon. Baronet founded l',, , opinion o ft ile Trade, opon b tl e t i i i s ig , , ground in s o t.e -- ; tlia f hands,i n the inl n i. 3 ) e r b d e t i l s a l t n t s4 t: s . s l :' petition was not to be expeded ; bat the a bolit of the --Assize -would -nor --affis Et- the Meal inea ' Millers, one way or the other,a.they would, lia' no more power after the abolition of the Assize t augment the price of Flour than they hive at r sent ;. 'the T illy person up on w h o m the Assize oe, .rated was she Baker : • Therefore he did 'approve`: ao t l nf i de remedying of abolishing; meendycionnigphtie tiporn the e.s e present evil,Assize, by a s introducingthe o nlyli: ~ i : The way to produce Cod petition in .a Trade was, to have as 'few' restraio' as possible . upon it : at present, such were t he 0 1 straints thrown upon the Baker, that it prevent s " • people with capitals. from entering into or conril ing in it. The p re j u di ces w hi c h h a d b een exe it against Mealmen and Millers, would tend to .Pe' petuare the very evil which was complained of, b,; cause men of capital would not like to embark rb g .'t capital in a• trade which subjeded them to so iliu,,,, C ' • obloquy, Competition wo u ld ma k e a B a k er a 017, :important charade r ; for' at 'present' Bakers w i , e : i ; 'considered-as an i n f er i or or d er o f tradesmen. ;11 - Man With a c a pi ta l went i nto that 'business, ,a,'„! very few rxmained in' it after they "" actl ui ;,;' a capital ; but if - this branch or - nusiness was free and unshackled, like any other, he s a ss , P; reason why the Baker should not be a; reSpett,P; a character as, the Brewer. His great,kar upon p subjed 'was, that if the Assize s h ou ld b e a b6li and that a season of Scarcity should arrive, the o' 4 ness of Parliament would hardly be able t o rep' the clamours of the People without doors, VS .. , would call upon Parliament for their interpositit; ' when they folind the bread getting to an exorbira t • price. • There was, perhaps, some danger to be a?, prehended, that principles might he carried to F G ; great an extent ; Bread was riot like other artiel t upon which you cixild. 'calculate an average, ; (t i which must in time find its own level : this .1 ' , , a . , not the case, with . an, arti c l e w hi c h was the dliq food of man, and which mist 'be had. day. by dl . : . therefore, 'perhaps even this plan of abolishing i 'w Assize .was more difficult than it at first appeateo! but he begged again to repeat his hope, that 1 -'l'"'i this-most-important subject the House would Pq come to any hasty decision. , . . -.I Sir W. PULTENEY said ; he perfelly concur!' , , ~..1. in the opinion that great deliberation was zecessl upon this subject, because if Parliament deterinin , to abolish the Assize, it ought to be wi'..l) a'.det e ;l mination, not to recede. In such a case he 11 0 1' 4 Parliament would follow she example' of il''', ancestors in the reign of King WiLLIANI, V' ise ,''' having. passed an Ad - for giving Bounties on l'i Exportation of Corn, would not recede frora 1 11 ', 'principle, though they were much 'importuned consequencej' three or four scarce seasonswhi followed. o A'Competition could only be cteate A l by making one among the persons now engag in . the trade, or by introducing new perso": s ride He did_not think, there . I ,: c any isro ability ot a Co m petar tam —rwmp law 1 ,, People now: .engaged in the Trade : tilt tomit-, tition he looked for, was. from persons not a of engaged in the Trade, and who, if time wete Oil 1:J0,41d-take their measures for that purpose, tho u !: they could not do it at *present,'because, in fat, rg 7 ,4 ; greater part of those now engaged in the Tr i ' o were tinder the direttion of the Millers, and A they would continue while the Assize upon Brer io continued; for no man of Capital would engage of a Trade, where the Magistrates had the power fixing the price of his Commodity. 'I) Mr. FULLED said, that after the Scarcity 1750, the Price of Wheat did not regain its gem for two Harvests ; and therefore, he proposed, ri i the Assize should cease after the next Harvest. br Mr. FRANKL AND said, he had been in cici„ t ' re whether it would be better that the BilLriow hel,°o the House should be withdrawn, and a new P h e brought in after full deliberation, or whether i ' l j present Bill should go through the Committee ,',,, be printed, and then lie over for future conside t be tion. He confessed he was not an advocate far t ri present Bill, because it would throw the CooP t i i, back upon the Statute of GEO. 11. the inconve ence of which was obvious. Every Clentlo)o4 seemed to concur in thinking, that the only Ibfl necessary to lower the Price of Bread was Cols tition ; but it was singular enough that when b y very principle of Competition was afted upolbi to that class of men who had so often been alludeE.eJ in the course of the debate, it was made the 50bi 0 , 3 5 of accusation against them. He confessed be De, not quite so sure as some Gentlemen seemed' r,..9 to , that Competition must be necessarily good. L ' c i o , petition implied Contest, 'and Contest might, / volve and excite all the bad passions of mankilw,e cf , Competition appeared to him, generally speakr t .lT, as good in things in which Competition could ° o ly take place. There was Competition in the C o L' c i Market ; 'but when the article was manufaju re k into Bread, it was thought by our ancestors 0 64 , 4 fit subjeft for Competition. By the Law of tP „, Land, a poor man might now go to a Bakers and insist upon a loaf upon paying the price ;$ 11,4 by Law—But if the Assize was taken off, then tot more urgent the want of the customer was , more the seller had a right, upon the principleoe Competition, to raise the price of his goods. j ot threw out those observations for the considcrol,o of the House, to shew that even this favourite no of Competition was not without objeftions, alit l , oo , shew the necessity of that with cau tl ` l ,, o o e n o f su ß pp re o a s d e , d 11. but there was a Statute almost as eallJ, t l l t le h A ad ssi b z e e Magna Charta, he meant the Statute of FIE S ' ss ft was s at ththeesfitarstutteStoaftuGtetoi :0255 There was also a Statute in the reign of Q. i k i ors' and at last the whole System was digested 0 , 7 w il corporated into the Aft of GEO. 11. He v el , o o' concurred with the CHANCELLOR of the .r. , ?‘ 0 QUER., that this was a subjeft which ought t° ,o l , proceeded in with caution arid appreheoslo!);o,) he hoped, chit- the most mature consideratio n w , be bestow_ed upornit. Idatariati°(' Mt. COU RTE WAY said a few - woruA s An,e- A Defer IQ Mc, . At a ll to.n "".44..... Z 0 ) NvE 1 11 '...()urr a}'' the :th H , cess„ y, is thi& HE -f e w ‘.311 , Thu: 4 : t e at co C Pse. ) of 'Ntin j n, h? Vi j. Aci m v iral y 4tlean. ti s li ct i : °II & We ta rl Tll re Otir n 1 k COI( fro m ' c 1. The dem e r h e ees terNin