The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-29 00:00:00

and, it, the 'meantime, aemtaing to the proposition ‹)1 the Hon. - Gentleman, the House was to be kept without any Member being there to represent the Borough of Liskeard. Mr. SITERIDAA said, - he had given notice o'n the preceding day that he intended to move to de fer the consideration of Mr. HUSKISSON'S Petition until after the discussion of the Petition of Right. As to the argument, that thereby the House might 'be kept without any Representative for Liskeard, lit begged leave to observe, that if the other Can_ didate chose to give notice that he would not de. fend the double return, Mr. Husxissort might be :kept out of his scat for sixty days. Mr. PITT observed, that if such a notice as that mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman was given, the House would know Low to proceed, but the threat of giving such a notice was no argument for deferring the consideration of the Petition. Mr. BURROUGHS observed, that the former order was.made with the consent of all parties, and it ought .not to be rescinded without due notice. - Mr. SHERIDAN explained. The SECRETARY at WAR observed, that no question affcaing the right was likely to arise out of the consideration of Mr. EiusxISSON'S Pe- • • The.question was then put for reading the order of the day, and negatived. LORD HOOD—TOULON. The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER moved the order of the day for the House to re_ .solve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the papers respefting Lord Hoop's claims relative to the captures at Toulon should be referred to the said Committee ; which was ordered. The House having resolved itself into a Corn .mittce, • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stid, he had to call the attention of the Committee to a suljed, which he could not help thinking re quired all that indulgence and liberality which they were always accustomed to shew to the exertions of the British Navy, a subjea which connected it self with one of the most splendid exertions of our Navy,during the last War, and related to Officers and Seamen as meritorious as any in, the British Service. It was impossible that any one could doubt the merit of the service performed by Lord -loan at Toulon. The present subjed afreded the interests of Lord Hoon, Lord KEITH, Lord RaD sTocr, and other distinguished Officers, and of all the Officers and Seamen under the command of Lord Floors, upon that ;occasion, who were now liv. ing, and the families of those who weredeceased, 411 were involved in the consideration of the sub. jell, which he felt it incumbent upon him to sub. mit soetlte•Committee. It was not his intention to go into any particular detail with respee.).--to e the surrender of Toulon ; it would be recolreded that the inhabitants of the Southern Part of France, *weary .of the worst•of tyranny that ever degraded the human race, expressed a wish to be placed under the authority of the legitimate Heir of their ninr deredSovereign. In consequence of this, Lord HOOD became possessed of the Town_anci Harbour of To. Lin, and several French Ships, wliich, by s.Conven. Lion, went to, be held, in part, for,Louts. XVII. to whom they were to be restored. During the con s' mince t , of f. Wur t elit.e'the natuic Or the terms agreed upon, precluded . Lord,Hoodfrom claiming any , ,remuneration f9r himself and the cers and Seamen under his command. After the R,atification.of the Definitive Treaty of Pace, Lord I-loon pfesented a Memorial to His Majesty, claim ing .a reward. for the Officers and Seamen, on ac. count of the French Ships destroyed and taken pos. seesion of at Toulon, together with their Ordnance and Stores. His Majesty was pleased to refer the Memorial to the Privy Council, a Committee of whom took it,into consideration. It was the opi. nion of that Committee, that it was not expe dient to grant any remuneration for the ten sail of the line; and other vessels which were destroyed, because it ,was not the practice to grant remunera. tion for Ships destroyed at sea, it was only when they were captured that the Captors becaMe enti tled to Prize-money, Head.money, &c. The Coma mittee of Privy Council however recommended that a remuneration should be given for those ships which were brought away from Toulon, and afterwards employed in His Majesty's service. It was then referred to :he Lords of the Admiralty, and to the Master General of the Ordnance, to report the va lue of those -ships, and of the ordnance and stores taken in them. The Lords of the Admiralty re ported the value of the ships at 236,74.26 and the _valueof the ordnance and stores at 28,594.1.14.5.10 id. On these- reports being received, the Committee of Council recommended the granting of a remuneration to Lord Floor), which was approved of by His Majes ty in Council, and it was upon this recommendation approved of by His 'Majesty, that he submitted the proposition for remuneraticnto the Committee. In considering this subject, let. it be remembered, that in this instance, the Officers and Seamen of His Ma. jesty's Navy -had been favoured in a similar manner to that now proposed. At the Helder several Dutch Ships were taken possession of by Admiral M IT. CHE Li, in the name of the Sradtholder; and without detrafling from the merit of that service, would any. man say that the service performed by Lord HOOD at Toulon, did not establish at least an equal claim to the gratitude of the Country ? The Ships taken at the Fielder, were libelled in the Court of Ad miralty, but, never condemned : the Ships taken by Lord HooD, at Toulon, had not been li. belled; but, would any man say, that if they had, they might not have been condemned. The distindion, however, was immaterial. The value was given for the Ships taken at the Fielder. The two other instances were, the. Ships destroyed by Lord NELSON at Aboukir, and those destroyed and taken at Copenhagen, in both which compensation was given. He only asked that the House would sot, in this instance, take advantage of the want of condemnation, and that they would give the Officers and Seamen employed at Toulon the value of those . Ships which they had taken, and which had been employed in His Majesty's Service. It might be asked, if the claim he now made was so just, how ii happened that it was not brought forward sooner ? FKOM the nature of the terms agreed upon with re. spe& to the Ships taken possession of, it was evident it could not be hrouglit forward tinting the War. Af terwards, some time was taken up in the considera- 1 tion of the subjett. The Reports of the Board of Admiralty and Ordnance were made on the 31st of March and the ist of April last year. There was no necessity to recal to the -•recolletlion of Gentlemen how much Governtnent and Parliament had been employed from the rat of April to the end of the last Session. On the 3 tst of August • the Privy Council finally recommended the re muneration, and it was approved *1 by His Ma jesty. He did not think it proper to bring for ward a subjeti of such importance ir. the present - Session previous to the Christmas Recess, when the attendance was thin, and afterwards it had been delayed from obvious reasons. He wished, how ever, that whatever blame m i ght he attached to the delay, it might be wholly imputed to him, and that it might not be suffered to injure the cause of Lord Hoot), or the Officers and Seamen who were under his command, and who, he trusted, would experience that attention and indulgence which the House were always disposed to shew to British Offi. cers and British Seamen. He concluded by moving, that a sum not exceeding 265,3361. be granted to His Majesty, to be distributed to the Officers and Seamen under the "command of Lord HOOD at the capture of Toulon, being the estimated value of the ships and vessels taken possession of upon that occasion, and the ordnance and stores on . board them. Mr. PIER POINT bore testimony to the merits of Lord Hoon in the affair at Toulon, and warmly' supported the proposed measure. • • ; Mr. jOHNSTONE observed, that they were not in the least called upon to decide respe&ing the'ho . nour of Lord Hoon, or 'of the Officers under his command. the present being merely a'question of right.. 'Upon this - subjea he wished to understand clistinelly; whether the Right Hon. Gentleman put it as a Question of Right, or a Question of Libera lity.- An Appeal upon such an .occasion was cer_ . tainly never made to the House in vain ; but the ones. tion here appeared to him to be in a .. very narrow compass : it was, whether the: Ships which had come into our possession 'at Toulon, were Prize or not Prize. The Ships were taken possession of in trust for Louts XVII. ; . -and it api•eared to him that they did not come • into our possession as Prize, but by Convention ; and. supposing that Personage to be restored to the Throne .-of France, - would he not .have a right to call - for the restoration of those vessels ? The case of- the' vessels taken at the Helder,. bore no analogy to the present, as they were libelled,in the Court of Ad. miralty, being claimed as prizes by the Captors ; that had not been done in the-present case. Whe. ther, however, the Vessels were captured or not, the Land Army were entitled to an equal share. — He did not urge doubts for the purpose of opposing the proposition in the' first instance, but he wished the question to be decided, whether the vessels .at Toulon_ were prizes or not prizes—and upon . thii subject he wished .to hear the opinion of a Right Hon.. Gentleman (Sir Wm. Sc OTT). It. might per. haps, he too much to say, if they were not prizes, that under—the present •financial difficulties of the Country, so large a stim should be granted to Lord H00p..• - • Sir HOME. POPHAM said, that the .question involved not only the interests of Lord HOOO, hitt of the service to-which he had the honour to belong. He believed the case had not been fairly stated, ei ther' by the CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER Or the Hon.. Gentleman (Mr. JOHNSTONE). Lord Hoot appeared off Toulon with t 4 Sail of the Line; there were 17 Sail of the Line in :Toulon Harbour. Lord Hoot) made dispositions for an.. attack ;, he disembarked his Troops, and took possession of Fort La IVlalgue.. He tilen sent to the French Admiral (SAINT JULIEN), informing him that if he did not surrender he would .be fired upon by the Fort, whilst the English Fleet would enter at the same time. There was certainly no secret negotiation between Lord HOOD and Admiral ST. JUL I EN, it was a fair i,sue of their powers. Lord HOOD'S Force was in ferior, but the name he had acquired did the rest. ST. JuLIEN quitted his Ship, and was foll Owed by the crews of seven sail of the line. But no COnven lion was entered into between the two Commanding Officers. Lord Hoot) abed the part of an able Officer, and afterwards of an able Statesman, as he conciliated the people of the South of France by taking pos session of Toulon in the name of ,Louis XVII. - So far from there being any convention, the whole was a' Military operattoo, the result of which asto nished ail Europe. If . an idea was to go abroad that there' were doubts as to the proposed remunera tion, 'would it not operate very much against the Country, if it was.to be, understood amongst our Naval Force, that when by converitioo; united with t ~ attack,' an advantage was gained, : oo remuneration was to be granted . ? If Lord Hoop had asked for remuneration during the War, whilst these ships were held in -trust for Louis XVII. would it not - have been considered as an ad of indelicacy ? It had been said, that the ships ought to have been libelled in the Court of Admiralty ; but was it nor ,more regular to present a .Memorial to His Majesty ? He hoped the House would Consider the case ex. • ally as it stood, without suffering any quibble of :law, or trifling irregulatitY, to inpeoce their' judgment. Mr. CREVEY thought the subjed did not pro perly come before the Council, but ought to have been decided upon in the Court of Admiralty. - The- CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Hon. Gent. (Sir HOME . POPHAM) had supposed that he had stated that there was a Con vention between Lord HOOD and the . French Ad miral, he only meant that the whole proceedings were in the nature of a Convention, and the ships were taken possession of in the name of Louis the XVIIth. Lord Hoot., he conceived, had a strong claim upon the liberality of Parliament, and to that his Lordship wished to submit himself. As to li belling the ships it made no difference whatever in the case. Dr. LAWRENCE objdled to a part of the Hon. and Gjllant Officer (Sir HONiE PotNiAm's) Speech, as it implied a sort of threat to the House in case the present proposition was not agreed to. He wished to know whether the question bf right was in ;his case given up or not ? With respect to t I V . case of the vessels taken at the Helder, be was o f opinion, that tlle Captor:it:A . a tier. According to an old Settlement of these cases in the reign of Charles the ild. where vessels came over from the Enemy, the right vested in the Crown, and it was for the Crown to reward in proportion to the ser vice. He wished that some pause should be allow ed before they were called upon to agree to this pro position ; the Report upon, this subject ought to be in the .possession of .every one before they were called upon to vote upon the subject. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. stated, that the papers were laid upon the Table early in February, and were ordered to be printed on Friday last, there was therefore no surprize upon the House. Dr. LAWRENCE said . he had no opportunity of looking at the papers till the present moment. Sir I.OME POPHAM trusted the House would not impute to him any intention of holding out a threat upon the subiett, as his words would not bear any such interpretation. Mr. W. SMITH wished for further time to con sider the subject ; no claim of right being. set up, it necessarily followed that there were degrees in which they .were to apportion reward to exertion, and this requited time for consideration : this ques tion, as to the - quantum of remuneration, formed in his mind, a- weighty consideration for delay. Ther'd* was also ano:her subjeCt .for consideration, which was the claim of the Army employed at Toulon he understood from what was stated by the Hon. Gentleman (Sir HOME POl'ilAM) that the Army co-' operated. In that caseovhen they were only called upon, to grant a remuneration to one service, it cer tainly became an objea for their consideration why their, liberality,ought to be restrained ? It was also to be remarked, that the papers had not been de. livered more than one or two days, and therefore . there had not been sufficient time for consideration. Admiral BERKELEY said, that the Ships We're taken before the Army arrived. Two Regiments were embarked on board the Fleet to let as Marines,' and were the Troops employed to take Fort La 1 Malgue ; those he conceived were entitled to as Marines. The Army did not arrive till lint after the Ships had been taken possession of. The CHANCELLOR of she EXCHEQUER said, if there were,really any doubts as to the share oithe Army, he would very willingly consent . to doter ibe consideration of the solojeCI; 'but he unaltotid',' that Ole Soldiers who served on board the net...t.ls Marines, were entitled to share as such; - Sir . WM. SCOTT was of opinion that suCh'ii'h'ri of the Army as served on board the Fleet — as - Marines,, and aEled as such, were entitled benefit of the distribution. Some farther observations were made by Sir WM. PULTENEY, Mr..KINNAIRD, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHF.QUER,M.y.JOHNsTONE, .6itiMir3l.BEßkE. L Ey, and Sir CHAR LES POLE, the result of which was r according to the, statement - of the - Lille - I'o'4M -- the Troops who served on board' the' -Fleet aaed under the orders of Lord KEITH, and did not con sider themselves as any•thing else but Marines. Mr. WINDHAM said, it was now 'admitted this wasnot a question of right, but a questimt of Jibe... rality, and in that Case it required much more. iti), formation on. the subjea. It was trite that the Papers had, been laid upon the Table some days ago ; but there was such a multiplicity of Papers laid upon the Table of that House, that unless the attention of Gentlemen was particularly called to them, they frequently escaped observation. Mr. KINN4IRV moved that Mr. ALEXANDER should leave the Chair. Which - Motion 'lvas diately negatived, and the original Resolution put and agreed to. The Report was ordered to be received to-mor: row. HIS MAIESTY's MESSAGE. Mr. Secretary YORKE moved the Order of the 1 Day, for taking His Majesty's• Message into con. sideration. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT s aid, he did not mean to oppose the Motion ; but this was a subject of very great importance at any time, .and more 'SO at the present ; it was a subject that was likely to involve, principles that must naturally excite the jealousy ,of those who were attached to tie Consti tution. He would not take, up more of the time of the House at present, as he did not know what measures Ministers meant to found upon this Mes sage ; but he could not help expressing the jealousy he felt 111).6n the subject, • . • Mr FULLER said, that, if Gentlemen, had any objections to state to this Measure, they ought to state them at 02C4-; but. if they did not..kuo,v). what the measures to be proposed were, it woulkbe . as well to wait till they did, before ,tliey,4presii;l'. their objettlions. . The Order of the Day was then, a read;:al - 41 SrEAltsit having read His Majesty's Message, Mr. YORKE addressed the. House to the follow, ing effeti ; "Sir, in calling the attention of theHouset to the Message of. His Majesty ,which has been, just' read, I cooed - ye tharThere can exist very little doubt; of the general concurrence of the House in carrying; to the toot of-the Throne their. Unatlitiloll ‘ 3 expres.; sions of joy and satisfaCtion at.the communication' 'which has been made, and of this. additional proof: of the zeal and' loyalty of the Irish Militia. I' should conceive, ,Sir, that there can hardly be any, person in the House who can find .any difficulty..in expressing his concurrence. and warm approbation' at this generous and spontaneous rerun on the part of the Militia of Ireland, for an equally generous and spontaneous effort which was made on a former occasion by the Militia of England, who offered their services to'go to Ireland, at a time when that Country was in a state of considerable danger. But as His Majesty's Message applies only to a part of the measures that are under the cousideration of Government for augmenting the disposable part cf our Military Force, I hope I shall be, excused if I advert shortly to other-subjeds which form a part of that general plan. Before I proceed to state those. points, I think it may be material to recall the recolledion of the House to the present state of our Military Force, because, although it had been stated on former occasions in .a general way, yet it had never been stated in that distinct and detailed manner which was necessary to make a proper impression . upon the House. After-having stated the present state of our Military Force, I shall take a short con -I,`parative view of our Military Force at two former periods, viz. in Oduber t Sot, when, the liminaries of the Peace were signed, and in April • 1803, itnmediattly after His Majesty's Mes sage. The total of the Regular - Force on the first of this month, including Cavalry,' Infantry, and Militia amounted to 252,84.1 men ; this bndY consisted in round numbers of 20,324. regular valty, 133,260 regular Infantry, and 99 ,2 57 The number of the Artillery at the same period amounted 14,z0z Men, making altog ether the s adual state of our Force, on the ist o f this month, 267,04.3 Men. Now, with respect to the comparative view which I proposed to take of our Force at two former periods ; on the Ist of Odo ber ißct, .the effedive strength of the Army amounted to z 66,800 • Men ; the Artillery 10 12,287, making together aboVe 2 79,000 Men'' consequently taking the whole of our Force Loge. , ther e and comparing them at those two Peri° J , s ' viz. Odober 18c).1, and March 1804, it will L' / found that our Force, now that we have only be er ` engaged about to Months in War, is within 13, 000 • or 4,000 Men of the amount of the Army, a t the close of a War which lasted nine years. T he number of Cavalry in Odoher iSoi was 26,35 0 ' but it' should be recolleded that the Cavalry is a F , orce . that cannot be raised - so quickly as- j° : lantry, and that the number...of our Cavalry. Vii,g thought at that time by many Gentlemen w c; u r e greater than was necessary.' I h ave n ow, "" stated very shortly, but very accurately, the colv parative•strength of our Military Force at the twci periods to which I have alluded, and having P l ea so, I will leave it ,to the fair and unprejth lict determination of any man, whether there are a Ol, ~, grounds for those charges which some Gentle ine '; are so constantly in the habit of throwing out, ,s the want of exertion on the part of His Mdje s * r s Ministers, and of the neglect of the Mili A ta ,' Force of the' Country. Now; Sir, with reerin', ' :, our Force in April 1803, immediately piev - l otls ' c the .rup`ture. with - France, it amounted at that ti° . in Great Britain and Ireland to 14,84_3 Men. l'" 1 “ )° ,: l t Sir, I shill state the distribution of o ur For ce , the two 'periods to which I have alluded. total of Force in Great Britain and Ireland. in 11301, including Militia, was 170,4 26 I\ ', ll , en t : i i n 99 1 973 i1 2v I I! ° 11, 31 3' near and inn 3 (l o,o 0 . 0 IV M I r e e n b-1TI) r'; : l l c ; Green - 13iitain are a Ir'elAnti than there was at 1.1 close - of the' last gar, and near 63,000 Men more than there c,. w . its in April last, immediately before. • the coininenctn:ient.• of the War. ..ut there is anoth er view in which I wish the House to consider thi s , subjed, that is 'to' say, the. difference: of the" num hers of the Regular Troops 'at the differetit Pe riods—by Reguhr Troops I do ••not••mean 0 11 if Troops disposeable for Foreign Service. The mo s t her of Regular ".Proops in Ireland in ()Sober .1 8° 1 was 12,2'20 Menee at present there are in If e4 a . "` - 28,87 a tßegutai fortned'3 o ' ha t "; litrrtreiatal: - sr.e - trattenVe - viei disci liptql•-• zocps this COlintreirjepo'ise . 4sc.d. - it iniglinbe.iaid that the :danger in the ; forsneliVar was not so grea t 81 -99 thaty.witrin which we - were now 'threatened, w il.l --, verettrte say - that there were many pet,', / .;'• - cif'theldst.Wai; an A l,imitieularly at the time ‘i':f e e Northern Confederacy, when the danger Was g re i . .,ll‘r (I will, not say•th:an e it•is'noW,A)ecause we ar e " -I t ts,s prepared, but virliS greeilr) than it was some ro °l ' ago. ,- Without otcctrying• the House longer LW as this ..subjed, r,fenture to say, that .as the defence of tlitseCuuntry is concerned, lady if. theThurnber of Volunteers is•consicle•6“; requires no•extraordinaty_degree of entiraiin°,l;lll: feel . ; much alarm{at,any7-threatened• attack,9' e ls Enemy, That no .dtgree. :of exertion has 1)e Wanting on . the part of the Execiitis , e.Govern tlien t ; is I think. clearly 'proved, if the nitinber•of the I.,'r considered! that have been raised during the reseal, War. •The total number's of Men raised f°' Aro . l) , Public, Service, for the *Regulars, Militia , ea t of Reserve, and Seamen, since the commenc e . lo ,to of : the Wai, is . 192,606 men ; rand' it oug!iit, at a be,ereColleded, Iliac _this. Force was' rai se “„ n u , titne - when 'provisions were cheap, when ' lle : t i o cre fadures were floutishing,and coilsequeotlyw ilei. ,, r in , , were not such strung inducements w men to ic es to the Army or Navy. When all these droll -11 are taken into consideration, let any i e i ;te whether Ministers have or have not tna,le "")dal, ertions. I take no credit to myself and toy . vio g leagues for these 'exertions, because • in to them, we have only done our duty. B u t I a s, have thin point considered as established, khi!. far as relates to our defensive Force, there • reason to repine „st what has been done. - point being established with regard to our have 'siveForceethe next question is, whether . We l ar o a . suflieient offensiv.e.:an;i,".disposeable Force. ti e f o of opinion that we ought not to confine ourasht t' 'to Yriet deiStire's of defence, I. that - we O°P ie of forwasri to .svhat . may lt - apped in the wov e n, the wirs - ;'S'tirliose'inionie.ltapliy day' the Co'n. fr o 'ofl , :tir()pe' should 4 . ndeatiiittr • to resctieeitseltioed) dolt 'fd.ke, i , fiteraii . bond e in:which jr ants .and .which.fas-.l4velled . .Kings - a`nd , nor doe •4.6oitosii - •; it. mukrbe admitted :that it would S'ir6ablV"thrit"this•'CoMitry shbuld - avail 0 itse . l ; sie p l-erecbes.attmerpoftunity if it oceurred:•' but man . I itself (11, should . :not,.' this . Coutitry:e m y to have an opportunity 'of reducing the E nc . ore ereasein, t convincing- him ..!that r e . „ are po . .reetful - rban he'supposes-tts' to- be, and tha.t ". o i n st mote •thati:*able co . nt end si';tgle-hilocl ed o 't ad' • obint:::-.-UPtin these or unds I think it wow." A so vise:able to augment our dis oilcable Force , 0 . 1.0 9 an auginentatton had been d e termined r up on b u t •Mijesty's Government ; it hadrno t y et been . ch a n p ?" to' execution, but it was ready to be done CO6ti:olere. extent, as might be deemed proper. The %S e a to ration which had been already ordered, el‘t e .e cr eas e thC Cavalry and to the Foot Guards ; 35 , 0 , a nd ti . ' e t „. in the Cavalry was about Guards above zOOO. - addition to this, I " r in e) Of, 10 0 a 4. 1 posed to raise' eight new Regiments is° ea c 'each, and ton new Battalions of woo men gegi old to be added'to ten of the strongest o f th e . one be C ° tO net 'menu c—and this augmentation was to Lc wa de , ed with an riugmentation which was to u„ pastetuir the Foreign Troops in our service. It a cry` v r well known that there was in the last \ , • a n • vi ce., . er large body of Foreign Troops in our ser i , r eat ir the w ifoo t. it must be equally obvious that t here ,. t r: re t' e n ot r. , difficulties in recruiting The ° than there was in the last War, that that or co,rcii,,,