The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

th.. , er ' t i nstigation of their own officer. He would just ad-' y one other topic in connexion with the distress Bioreland, and that was the remedy of emigration. can, rc.o prts of Ireland society was, in what he might , r ,t congested state, and the only Henreedy, therefore, much °f topical one of emigration. did not speak so n of national as local emigration. The Noble Lord at! ,that he did not so much intend to aid the emigrant ',:illats country as on the other side. But great care necessary in the distribution of this aid for the pur- I C" tof Government wou ld b e l os t if, i ns t ea d of aiding tst more destitute, they granted assistance where such not so much required. He would not hare risen that ev ening had it not been for the laboured defence of t 6 jAct passed l ast sess i on b y hi s N o bl e F r i en d, an d he Clid not h ave even r i sen in consequsne of that d e f ence 4171 tt not b een for the assertion of his Noble Friend 4 the failure of that Bill was solely owing l atl the wan t o f co - operat i on on t h e part o f I r i s h dlords. He (Lord Monteagle) would be prepared to pr ove, in th e course of these d i scuss i ons, t h at t h ere were ele ments„ in th e const i tut i on o f t h at Bill which must have "TZssarily made it a failure. Th e Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he must be Permitted to make one or two observations on this sub l e t e t: He thought that the Noble Lord who had spoken btt h ad altogether m i sa ppr e hended the remarks made jo hit e N t el di e t l o 'ri s e ai nd the Secretary for the Colonies who did that this Act was to be a permanent _Act for the goo of Irelat.d. He only stated that it t W aS th e b est'scheme that could be devised at the t i me, : id it was only found inefficient because it had not been ' 4 PPOrted 'in that country. They then left those parts 13iii hey thought were not faulty; and, indeed, left the to 8111 pretty nearly as they found it. Now, he must refer t -.e assertion that these presentments were all sent vr r_ . ..°,s'ether. Was that the way in which local business as transacted in England ? Did they not privately discuss th e the measures of local importance a little in private, and t o Insking, a selection, prefer those which they thought he the best? Then, with regard to the Building Act. ota y e t em—a lo o t h n ad t11f•1 d h t least to the extent of ',' 130 /•—but it had failed entirely through the act of c - :!lawyers; and it was in consequence of the communi cation on this point that the contents of the letter Was addressed to Mr. Labouchere. That Act had been introduced by the Noble Lord himself. But there was °tie thing which he could not help feeling a little hard, and that was, that while under the difficult circumstances in which t h ey h a d b een p l ace d, a ll their measures had b een condemned, but no one had attempted to point out ' wn at measures they ought to have adopted. He did hope for great benefit from the measures which the Go /riltnent were about to adopt, especially from that prin e'Ple of emigration to which so much allusion had been made, but he would not, at that late hour of the night, enter upon any further consideration of the subject. WORKHOUSES IN IRELAND. The Marquis of LANSI)OWNE laid on the table copies of the correspondence on the state of workhouses la Ireland, together with several returns of the state of the poor in Ireland and Scotland. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 23. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. WADDINGTON presented a petition from the board of guardians of the Petworth Union, praying for the abolition of the law of settlement. SUGAR IN BREWERIES. The HON. I NIEMBER also presented a petition from t he licensedthe victuallers and brewers at Bury , pr a y in g that penalties on the use of molasses and sugars in oreweries and distilleries should not be exacted. TEN HOURS' BILL. Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from ee tton spinners and others i Lanashire in favour of a I 'm Hours' Bill for young per sons c and children. SUNDAY TRADING. TUFNELL presented petitions from various P` lt n e ,, e ' nzl• Sunda3 -, trading. BRITISH ARMY IN INDIA.—ADVANCE MENT OF MONEYS. Or. WATSON presented a petition from an officer ,`""ose nam e we could not hear) in the Bengal army , to ' ra yg that cer t a i n mone y s , w hi c h had been advanced t the then Raja, and which sums were charged against " princi pa ad lity memoralized of Oude, s he houl membersd be restof ore the East d. Th etitioner h HoMuse s i nce t h e year 181 7, b ut b e w as aware that had no legal claim against that company, and he rayed th ere f ore that the House would take the subject No co nsideration, with a view of granting redress. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. fr suARNIAN CRAWFORD presented petitions to e ca Cork, an d other places in Ireland, and severa l taker the l ns , in England, p ray i ng t h a t t h e G o vernment would tarnediate and efficient measures to provide food sufferin g people of Ireland. CHINESE REVENUE. h o pr • 1 3 WRING gave notice that upon an early day China, and move for a return of the revenues collected in leetion Tt cl u i ,,n so the different modes of regulating its col g-Kong and other places in China. i tV n IV ,Ta OF COTTON IN INDIA. ~rxt —3-4 gave notice that he would, on Thursday move for a Sele c t Committee to inquire into the wth of cotton in India, and the encouragement give n Lk) t by t h e British Government. Mr. II NATIONAL GALLERY. i t -, UNTE stated that, on Thursday next, it was his totintion to move an humble address to the Crown, toPon the table of the House copies of any of the addressed to the trustees of the National Gal viirrY€ during the last two years, and also copies of any err ll 'e n ti° " given to them respecting the management and LS E of the pictures in the gallery. OF MOLASSES IN DISTILLERIES. r• HUMS also gave notice that upon the same day r e ,,`' u ld move for co pi es o f an y re p or t s sh ow ing th e co un - 4 11 why molasses s h ou ld no t be introduced into the an g ",; r Y and used in distilleries upon the same footing as ANNEXATION OF CRACOW. ti o M n r • HUItE stated that be . would postpone the mo f,. "' which he had given notice upon this subject, to b ri the in consequence of the papers promised y th e uGuovbearen.ment not having been laid upon the table o: POOR-LAW. hnMr. PERRAND gave notice that, on Thursday next, ti , - -,„ wo uld move for the appointment of a Select Com• c ,'"ce to inquire into the mode adopted by the Poor-law e r r nmissioners and their .Assistant-Commissioners in "ing up reports, and their treatment of boards of Rnardians, and whet control the Right Hon. Sir James Graham, Bart , exercised over the Poor-law Commis linners and 'their Assistant-Commissioners, during the time he held the office of her Majesty's principal ecrotary of State for the Home Department ; also Whether under the enforcement of the new poor-law Wages had not been reduced ; whether crime had not increased, and whether a system of terror instead of a system of kindness, had not been adopted towards the Poor, and whether the favourable anticipations ex pressed in Parliament by the promoters of the new poor law had not entirely failed, and whether the principle u P° l l which the new poor-law was founded was not a direct violation of the constitution of England. C UARGES AGAINST THE LATE HOME SECRETARY. The Hox. MsiunEn also gave notice, that on Thurs day next, he would, in his place in Parliament, make cer tain charges against the Right Hon. Sir James Graham, Bart., Member of that House , late l y holdin g the office of her Majesty's principal Secretary of State rthe Home Department, affecting his character as a linister of the Crown, and also as a Member of the 11 mtse of C ommons . C ORPORAL PUNISHMENTS IN HONG-KONG. BOWRING said, during last session, when great Interest was excited on the subject of the infliction of corporal punishmen t , h e ca ll e d th e att en tion of the i : l 29ter-Secret ar y f or th e C o l on i es (M r . H awes ) t o th e I Zlnetio n of' a similar punishment in the colony of Hong f ° ng, and referred t o a p ar ti cu l ar case , i n w hi c h fifty four per sons were so d ea l t w i t h . He (Mr. Hawes) !rated on that occasion that in his opinion the punish ment was un a uth or i se d an d ill ega l, an d expresse d hi s i ntention of taking an early opportunity to inquire into the Matter. A sufficient time had elapsed to enable him t o do so. He wished to inquire whether any answer hail been received to the communications made from the Colonial office as to the infliction of corporal punish- Meets by the police-courts at Hong-Kong, and whether 4121 3' steps had been taken to prevent the infliction of corporal punishment, whether by flogging, bastinadoing, or cutting off the tails of the Chinese, when they have been unable to pay pecuniary fines.—(Roars of laughter.) It Was necessary to explain this. 'I he newspaper pub lished in the colony stated that, in addition to the punish ment of flogging, the authorities had cut off the tails of the natives.—(Laughter.) He also wished to ask whether an ordinance, circulated in the Chinese newspaper (No. 10, of 1844), had been brought to the notice of her Majesty's Government, and obtained their sanction ; such ordinance appearing to authorise whatever bar barous and brutal punishments might be inflicted under the Chinese code, or according to Chinese Usages. The ordinance was to this effect:—" And be it i enacted, that in lieu of the whole or any part of any Penalty provided by the law, statute, or ordinance what anever, it shall be lawful for the court of justice before Who m the matter shall be adjudicated upon, to sentence TT a tlY offender, being a native of Chin a , or a nat i ve of -u.ong-Ting of Chinese origin, to undergo such pus has nish- Ment in conformity with the usages of China, as hitherto been usually inflicted on natives of China co mmitting offences in this colony." h . 4 r- HAWES said, in reply to the questions put t o o l f ta by his Hon. Friend, he had first to call the attention l ii t h„e House to what passed in that Hotase last session. u- (30 ,- Friend drew his attention to the case of a fp ; n ese on whom corporal punishment had been hi 'c'etl, and h e t o ld him, in reply, that all the eir rlatelostances connected with that case would be inquired Ilia Noble Friend at the head of tho Colonial I), ritiPartment had sought an explanation from the autho- T h. ," of the island, which was to the following effect :- I:li:4:tech:nese in question had been guilty of felony, and arreeted. A rescue was attempted by a largo a Chinese, which was attended with consi arull violence. 'l' , hey were, however, all arrested, was heard, et to the police-office, where the question 1 14. !am, and others were convicted and fined five dol - u e r to receive twenty strokes of a " rattan." lie .."ross. however, that this punishment was accom -1411g:1:1 with the loss of their tail • —(11 ar hear, and a seas were there infested s. gangs ' f law paniu'2o s, and it was f oun d very di ff i cult to d ev i se an y i nvent at a ll commensurate with their offences.— (Rem b . ) hear.) It was in the power of the gistrate inflict the punishment that was in flicted in ma this case. With -o, lB6 __e e s t toect to n 1844 a the ordifternancae, good deal of he had to state that it to t.h,e tned i was at the sa me ti me b ound to admit that to 2.3silni!ate the prttlichrnents ' under a Chinese code whit those inflicted 1e English one, a s th e y were extremely barbarous. u Promised big Hon. Friend to procure further is the ease, banks I, that )otato be the , Was nment lid so. r, but been r the occa ir were THE SUN, LONDON,_ TUESDAY EVENING, JANUARY 26, IM7. information on this point. and when he received it, he should lay it before the House. THE CHANNEL SQUADRON. Sir C. NAPIER gave notice of his intention tomor row to ask the Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Ward), whether it was the intention of the Goveremcat to employ any part of the Channel squadron t, import corn into this country on account of merchants ? SHIPPING INTEREST. Mr. BARCLAY presented a petition from a number of owners of ships in Sunderland, representing the pro perty of 1,200 tons of shipping at Sunderland. ORDERS OF THE DAY. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the postponement of the orders of the day till the notices of motion were dis posed of.—The motion was adopted. THE SOLDIERY IN INDIA. Dr. BOWRING rose to make an inquiry respecting the conduct of the British army in India, of which notice had been given at the latter end of last session, and which had been repeated on the first day of the present, to his Hon. Friend the Secretary at War. It referred to the reports of the hanging and murder ing by the British army in India, and originated in consequence of a letter written by a soldier of the Both Regiment, which was inserted in a local paper of con siderable circulation, the Stamford Mercury. This state ment was reprinted by a well-known body—the Peace Society. There was no doubt of the authenticity of the letter, and that it had been written by a soldier in the 80th Regiment. It bore the post mark, and there was, therefore, also no doubt but that it was put in in India, and was countersigned by the major. This member of the British army goes into the most minute details, and gives a full account of the atrocities of the British army, in which he says he himself took part. No ansffer had yet been given to the question, and in now calling upon his Hon. Friend (Mr. Fox Mamie) for as explanation, he thought it but right to state that the Society of Friends had made every in quiry into the circumstances reported in this statement. The Hon. FOX MAULE wished to exonerate the gentlemen to whom allusion had been made from any blame. There was no doubt they had acted on a letter from a private named Runn. An inquiry was made on the subject, an investigation had been set on foot, and he held a report iu his hand from which it appeared that Runn denied having written that letter, and a statement to that effect had been forward to Lord Gough. M. HENLEY wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the regulation with respect to sugar was to apply to all persons brewing. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pro posed to take off restrictions from all persons who wero engaged in brewing. EXEMPTION FROM COMMITTEES. The usual motions were then put, that the members of the Government should be exempted from attendance on the Committees of the House. Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he wished to be ex empted from the duty of Committees, he being over sixty years of age.—(Laughter.) THE STATE OF IRELAND. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Sir, I feel that I never had so much need of the indulgence of the lelouse as I have on the present occasion, but I feel, at the same time, that I never had so little need to ask that indul gence. I feel sure that this House, from the temper which it has already displayed ; from the sense which it has manifested of the calamity that has occurred, and I fear calamities still impending; from the sense of the danger that there would be from inter posing any party feeling in the discussion of this sub ject ; from the kindly clispoeitien with which I have been already received by the House,—l feel sure, I say, that on this occasion I need not ask for any such indul gence, but that it will be voluntarily bestowed upon me. —(Cheers.) Sir, in considering the state of Ireland, I will first proceed with laying down what is the order in which I wish to discuss the subject. In the first place, I propose to state generally the condi tion of those parts of the United Kingdom in which this calamity has occurred ; secondly, to make a general statement of what has occurred during the recess of Parliament ; what has been dune in conse quence of Acts of Parliament ; how far those measures have succeeded ; how far I think that they have been deficient, and then to state a hat we will proceed to do for the general emergency.—(Hear, hear.) After having made that statement, I shall ask the attention of the House while I proceed to invite them to some consideration of other measures which are calculated, in the opinion of her Majesty's Government to improve the state of Ireland, and to lay the foundation for her permanent welfare and tranquillity. I shall then take the liberty of mentioning some other subjects which, although they have been under consideration, have not received a full discussion. And we propose, in conclusion, to ask the authority of the House for the introduction of two Bills ; by one of these Bills we propose to make valid certain Acts one under the authority of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ire land, and communicated in a letter to my Right Hon. Friend who sits near me (Mr. Labouchere). The second Bill is for the purpose of approving the present estimates in regard to Ireland, in pursuance of the Treasury mi nute of the Ist of December last.—(Hear, hear.) In proceeding to consider the present condition of that country, I think it will be the safest course for me to use guarded and careful information respecting the cala mity which has overtaken Ireland, and for that purpose I propose to take the results of the Commission of In quiry into the Poor-law, and to ask the House to infer how great that calamity has been—representing an almost total failure of the potato crop. Sir, in the first report of that Poor-law Inquiry Commission, composed of gent'emen of considerable experience and autho rity an Irish affairs, it is represented that the great proportion of the population is continually fluctuating between the condition of paupers and independent la bourers.—(Hear, hear.) Scarcely one class of the working population are permanently beyond the condi tion of pauperism. It is stated further that there are few small resident gentry; that the clergy and laity exhi bit much variance with each other, and that these again are at issue with the labouring population. This state of feeling has occasioned great difficulty in giving effect to the measures already passed to improve the condition of Ireland, both in the construction and working of the parochial boards and other bodies or ganised for that purpose. In the third report of the same Commission, which, with the others, go to form the general report of the Commissioners, the following facts are given ; —lt appears that in Great Britain agriculture constitutes one-fourth of the business of the people, whereas in Ireland it forms two-thirds. In 1831 the number of persons engaged in agriculture in Great Britain was 1,651,000; in Ireland it was 1,131,715. At the same time while Great Britain had 34,360,000 acres in cultivation, Ireland had but 14,600,000.—(11ear, hear.) Ireland had therefore, in proportion to its extent, five agricultural labourers for Great Britain's two. At the same time, while in Ireland the wages of the labourer was from 6d. to 9d. a day, the average was from 2s. to 2s. 6J. a week. (The Noble Lord gave some other items in addition to these, as further illustrative of the relative position of the two countries in regard to agriculture, but he react them in such a low and hurried tone as to be perfectly inaudible in the gallery.) A great portion of them were not sufficiently provided at any time with the commonest necessaries of life. Their habitations were wretched hovels, in which se veral families slept upon straw, covered sometimes with a blanket, sometimes without even that protection. Their food was dry bread, and some of them were obliged to stint themselves to one spare meal a-day, and instances had been known of persons, driven by hunger, being compelled to seek sustenance from wild roots. Their employment was scarce and uncertain, some goinc , in search of employment to Great Britain during the harvest time, some going on a similar errand in Ireland, and many having only casual resources to fly to for the support of their children. Such, therefore, Sir, is the description given by the most undoubted autho rities of the state of th e labouring classes in Ireland. The state of Ireland may bo imagined, when I say that those who had not sufficient food are those who are best off, and yet they had scarcely enough, and those who had been before on the brink of famine, have perhaps been unable to resist the calamity. Such has been, unfortunately, the case during the present year, and during the visitation of a calamity which is, per haps, almost without a parallel, because it occurs in a very large population—a population of eight millions, which has gradually increased to that amount, while the famine is such as has not been known in modern times. —(Hear, hear.) I should say it is Eke a famine of the thirteenth century, so destructive and universal are its effects. Such, Sir, being the general nature of this case, I will state what was the course adopted during the past year, from the sitting of Parliament to the present time. When Parliament met last year it was apprehended that the potato crop, having been much injured, there was about to be a great scarcity in, Ireland. That apprehension was not fully justi fied by the event.—(hear.) It was impossible, as I think, for any man exactly to see what the extent of the misfortune would be ; but I also think, that having had a very plentiful crop of potatoes in the previous year, although there was a great quantity of the potato much injured, yet the quantity of food in Ireland was not very deficient.—(Hear.) However, Parliament took means very early in the session for the supply of food for the destitute, by means of giving work on roads and public works. It was enacted by Parliament that at the request of the sessions in a barony, parties should be empowered to advance money from the Treasury in loans for the execution of these works. Under this law the Government, on the 31st of August, voted a sum of 1,373,0001. for the relief of distress, by the creation of public works. There were presentments made to the amount of 476,0001. for these works, and out of this sum 290,0001. was actually expended, Before the end of the last session of Parliament, on the recommendation of the present Government, Parliament passed a further Act, by which, on the ono hand, the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was permitted to order presentment sessions, and, on the other hand, in order to check an extravagant expenditure, it was de termined that these sums should only be granted by way of loan, and the money w as t o b e repaid to the Treasury. Sir, very soon after the session of p ar li atne w, lino closed tiler!: was a great desire evinced, in many parts of Ireland, to have presentment sessions, in order that public works begun, but more esp ec i a ll y those public works which had already been sanctioned by Parliament, might be proceeded with. Some objec ticns were urged, that these works would be better deferred then, because there would be a great demand for labour, inasmuch as the harvest was coming in, and therefore it would be advisable to defer the construction of the works at that time. Be , cperation oY the law wile, by tile eleusaud uf LOV Nvt.sAtS,, 11131iL exteethely ditii • cult to the Board of Works, notwithstanding they wore reinforced by the addition of ten gentlemen, in ------ - every way competent to its duties. After these works were commenced great complaints were received from the proprietors of land and country gentlemen in Ireland, that the works had been found quite useless, end that, especially, the roads which had been begun were not wanted. Ide not attach any great force to these objections, the object being to afford relief by providing a certain amount of labour, which would show that industry was not entirely abandoned ; and the productive nature of the work was a matter of secondary importance, as the object we had in view was the preservation of the people in the first place from loss of life, by providing labour, and not by en ill-judged and indiscriminate charity. The poor rates in the last five years had increased from 4,000,0001. to 5,000,0001., being an increase of a million and upwards; and I do not believe from the mode in which that mil lion had been expended that any great amount of eroductive labour has been engaged, but that that sum has been employed in the partial and inefficient relief of local distress.—(Hear.) I do not, therefore, attach any great value to the ob jections thus made, but, at the same time, as it was most desirable to obtain the co-operation of the landed gentry of Ireland, and as it was desirable, if possible, to have the works of a productive kind, the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, with the consent of the Cabinet, after the case having been fully represented to them, sane tinned a plan by which the sessions were allowed to present for productive works instead of works of an unproductive nature. This plan had not long been adopted before a further desire was expressed for a town land division, and the present :tion of works for such town lands. These town lands are of various dimen sions, some of them very small, not more than 100 acres; the general average of the whole town lands do not, however, contain more than 350 acres. The ques tion for her Majesty's Government to consider was, whether it would be possible to accede to this request, It was quite obvious that if it were permitted to every per son, who was the proprietor or occupier of town lands, only to make himself responsible for his own town land, there would be no general interest in the welfare of the community, or in providing for the destitute; and more especially, the possessors of grazing laud, or lands from which clearances had been effected, would have only some two or three destitute persons to provide for; while hundreds of others, who were possessing a demesne in town lands would contribute more than their full share. In the opinion of the Lord-Lieutenant, and also of all persons who had paid any attention to the subject, it was thought that this plan could not be beneficially adopted. But, Sir, it was said that, although that plan could:not be adopted, still there was another scheme which might be adopted, and one which would prevent the evil of those who were ready to employ labourers, and to improve their estates, from being obliged to maintain the tenants and labourers of those who neglected their occupations and their duties. The plan was one for allowing the town-land division to take place, but obliging the proprietor and occupiers of town-lands to employ a certain number of destitute, so as to spend the whole of the amount of the assessment laid upon the barony. Upon this subject Ido not know that anything butter can be said upon this plan than an observation made upon it in a public letter written by Air. Smith O'Brien, ALP., in a letter to the proprietors of a public journal. He said that he thought this plan was much better than the one in actual- operation. (The Noble Lord then read the opinion to which ho re ferred. It supposed a district of a county belonging to two proprietors in which 100 persona resided, one of who employed fifty_ independent labourers, whilst the other did not ; therefore, in order to get rid of the main tenance of the other fifty, who would . thus be thrown for support upon the rates, he would be compelled to discharge his workmen ; thus one hundred persons would be thrown upon the land for support, as pauper; : so that if he were compelled to employ them in that capacity, they would not be subject to his own control, and would not perform his labour in so efficient a manner as the independent labourer. They would be paid out of the poor rates, to which he would only be called upon to contribute his share. This was done previous to the passing of the Poor law in 1831, but was found to produce bad effects upon the population—(Hear, hear) —paralyzing individual enterprise, and having, generally, an injurious operation. Now I conceive that these observations of the Honourable Member for Limerick are pefectly justifiable. Our experience in England has proved that the system works as he has described. The la buorers sent by me parish to labour occasionally on a farm are unlike men who labour on their oen account; and, besides, they were found improvident men, and every farmer conversant with the system would say that he would rather give 103. a week to a labourer selected by himself, than ss. for one of those useless men sent by the parish.—(Hear.) I third:, therefore, that the plans proposed in order to remedy the evil of having so many pesons engaged in inoperative labour in Ireland were full of danger. I admit, and will presently state, the great evils of the present system, but I think we should incur still greater danger, if, with the view of remedying those evils, we had done that which we conceive one of the most pernicious things that could be desired, if we had confounded labour with the relief of the poor— (Hear)—as by tanking that relief some what more efficient, we should have permanently injured this great and important class to which those inde pendent labourers belonged.—(Cheers.) Sir, the land owners and proprietors who were in favour of this alteration found great practical difficulty in putting into effeet the instructions of the Lord- Lieutenant. They found that when they came to an electoral district, and found two persons ready to adopt the system of reproductive works, that three or four utterly refused to become responsible, or to have any money advanced by the Government for that purpose. They found, therefore, that their operations, when so encum bered, were useless. This did not, however, though a serious difficulty, diminish their exertions ; but their operations, though very great and extensive, have not led to such a complete substitute as the system of establishing public works was generally supposed. But, Sir, as the plan went on the number of the dis tressed persons increased, and with the number of the distressed the difficulties of providing employment for such a number also increased. I should say, in the present place, that as the business of the Board of Works went on the officers found that they had also great difficulty of obtaining trustworthy and efficient persons to act under them. It was found, in the first place, that the labourers were frequently unwilling to undertake the tasks allotted to them. At length this difficulty pressed itself upon those engaged to such an extent that the belief pre vailed that it was impossible for any public board to fully discharge its duties and to carry out the works. The number on the establishment has been gradually increasing. I will not read their names, but the total number of persons employed as officials under this board is, at the present moment, 11,587 ; the number of superintendents is 185 ; the amount expended for the payment of all in the debt contracted is 2,410,366/. The number of labourers has increased from 30,135 in September last to 440,687 in December. In the last week's account they were stated at more than 480,000; and, at the present time, I do not doubt but that the number amounts to half a million. Ido not doubt but that great ability must be engaged in the employment of this number of persons. —(Hear, hear.) It is calculated that five persons gain subsistence for every person that is employed. I cannot say that that statement is correct ; but, taking it at four persons, there will be upwards of two millions of people supported by this plan. The expense at the same time must be enormous, and from an estimate I have here drawn :up it appears that the expense in the first week of December was 140,0001, the second 156,0001., the third 158,0001., and the fourth 154,000/. So far as we are acquainted with the past three weeks, of January, the expense of the first week was 157.000 L; on the 9th January it was 156,000/. ; and, on the 16th, 172,000/.;—making an amount of 585,0001. for the month of December, and 485,0001. for the first three weeks of January, and it is calculated that the expense of the whole of this month will be between 700,0001. and 800,0001. It is impossible that this expenditure could have taken place without great concomitant evils attending it. Thero must be great evils under any circumstances, hut there have been peculiar evils attending it, arising out of the present state of Ireland. For instance, there has been a diffi culty in procuring sufficient labour for the unemployed. Persons who have travelled through the country con tinually idling along ho r ,o n e alai reported o otdt r hbhj t et e eeh d ceppt that .suoethmihnri ai teue: t pc h trhoa e aor r nrsat e ekdsds swilwere:settoadarsnkkt talkinghel a oeew r uwoa e ri rtlsi ko b ts mgl o ti oa d awGt i dbehaoesees Government jes: labourersfnurattnbahrisubstituted ineideiidtnuiuloctti treleotldgdo.. erable difficulties, however, were experienced in af of the system, but the Lord-Lieutenant remained t neft fi l . ehoure:mctnwti work, determinationugdrn for idleness. Many evils sprung up out of this system; ftohratthhaodseevmeernbewenhopabidecainm the h e m a r accustomedket. Many to a n task them work earned earned f considerably rom is. 4. to more wages es 6. than any money wages and sometimes more. Th e resu l t was, t t o her l. e s wa lO a d. a , strong works, foundobtain a demploymentdifficulty procuring i t n h g o publiclabour to till their land at any sum . I lament to say, however, that this evil was produced by the conduct of the farmers themselves, for many of them who held twenty, thirty, fifty, and even sixty-eight acres o f land, emoved their sons and labourers from their usual occupation, of tillage to place them upon these public works, and enable themselves to receive the increased pay which that description of employment afforded over what could be earned at husbandry. I will now read part of a letter from Colonel Jones to Mr. Trevelyan, dated the 19th of January last:—" We are pressed by our officers for instructions as to how they are to act ; those which they have received to regulate their conduct aro no longer applicable were held hel i d t in the altere d state of things. The y are Ibiepsaiesgtehdo fsotruoriebliiieof,ga.bnidociLthineyitsrewfuaysc:d ilt,nthmey opinioner y give food, than to be paying away wouldwmToohuneledpyo,bowerhbitehtoeprlet be considered as a useless expenditure. Their bodily strength is gone, and . re disabled from t executing e t notas. c task-work. ov.r, poorer left incomplete." Sir, the r was, that lette previously to the receipt of this to exert themselves ; the wooprikasioNhellolf consequently, the G,o N. e r Ilm e b n e t faction and the want of food had so generally scheme that it was desirable to attempt some temporary the system had become so vast, and the increased, that mitigated, and with so vast an expenditure Sir,itmoney Is more relief might bo administered. by which some of the evils which now meet us might the that op it inion will of bathe desirable ers tooff h o e r r m relief committ ees , w hich committees shall be empowere d to receive sub scr ipti o ns, to levy rates, and t o receive . durations from tt:f. G'ovf•rnine!nt ; awl that by th '" M d a i j s e t s r t i y i district a they should be enabled to p urchase food, _ to establish soup depots, or that the y should, as far as they were able, distribute relief, to the famishing applicants, and that they should not require this indispensable test of work—(Hear, hear) — hut that a labouring man should be allowed to work upon his own plot of ground or on the farmer's, and thus his labour would tend to benefit the approaching harvest. and perhaps, by such an arrangement, he might be en abled to earn some small trifle in addition to the relief afforded him by the committee. After wo had considered this scheme, I communicated it to the Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland. We have consulteeL the various officers of the Beard of Works and the Commis sariat Department, they are prepared to consider it favourably, and sve .. will endeavour, by a series of preparatory measures, and next by a Bill, to carry into effect the arrangement. We propose that these arrangements shall be carriel out under the superintendence of a gentleman who has had extensive experience of public works. The person to whom I allude is Sir John Burgoyne—(Cheers) — at the present time the Inspector-General of forti cations in this country.— (Hear.) I sent for him the other dey for the first time, and having explained to him what we wanted, he said he would obtain leave of absence from his preseet duties, and instead of devoting the time to relaxation he would consider it his duty to devote it to the services of the country, and that he would be ready to go to Ireland at any time when called on.--(Loud cheers.) That gentleman will be in communication with the Lord-Lieutenant, and will co operate or not, as he thinks best, with the Board of Works, with the Commissioners of the Poor law. with the heads of the constabulary force, and with any other parties in Ireland that may be calculated to assist him.—(Hear, hear.) The question aidh regard to proposing this measure as one of immediate relief, and for the more efficiently supplying the people with food who are in want, will be treated in connexion with what has been done already. While every thing will he done to give speedy effect to the operation of this measure ; at the same time, care will be taken, and the Lord-Lieutenant will see to it, that its substitution for the system of public works already in operation, shall be easy of transition. There will be no rude dismissal of the people at once, but when all the arrangements of the present scheme are made, then no further presentments shall take place, or new public works will be commenced.—( Hear.) The Lord-Lieutenant states that in regard to the roads already commenced, if they are abandoned, they will be left in a most miserable state ; he, therefore, suggests that these shall, at least, be finished. These works will, therefore, be allowed to go to completion. With respect to this advance a condition hae been made ; that the whole of it should not be a burden to Ireland. I think that the misfortune was so severe that, passing by the remote causes of it, we ought not to throw the full burden of it on the possessors of property in Ireland. It would be right that the whole of tho burden should not remain on Irish property. I should, therefore, pro pose, on some future day, that an arrangement should be made by Parliament, by r i t i ldh i et e lo ach year when the instalment became due, one half of that instalment should be paid and the other half should be remitted, taking care that the whole debt should be kept up until the half is paid; but when the half was paid the remainder should be remitted, and this provid in.? that one half of the whole charge shall be refunded. I should state, with regard to the financial part of the. question—with regard to the sums hitherto issued, that they have been issued out of the balance in the Exchequer charged on the Consolidated Fund, but it neither has been, nor is it now in contemplation to make any new issue of Exchequer-bills iu order to meet this demand But, however, it must be considered when we are making these propositions to Parliament, that it is placing a very considerable burden upon the finances of the country—(Hear, hear)—and that in placing that burden on the finances of this country I do feel myself disabled from making some propositions which I should be called upon to make ; and all of them entailing expense, but with the very heavy burden arising from the destitution in the present year, it would be hardly fair for the people of this country, to propose them ; because, whether it is stated that the burden is borne by the Consolidated Fund, or whether the burden be borne by the imperial Treasury and the general finances, it must always be recollected that these sums are not to be granted by Parliament or the Government without the most serious consideration, for they are all sums derived from the payment of the people of this country, and who e p e a tl y ee i . t on i t s li f e r i o r m so th ap ai s t o h t e tr ir ee stl is ga d r e , riv a e n d d th th e e s i u r rp te lu a s a b n y d which we are enabled to come to the assistance of Ire land. The people are willing, as I think, to do all that is liberal in this respect. We must always consider what is meet and just to the people of this country. We must consider the difficulty and privation, and by what hard labour they earned these sums.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) As to the other part of this subject which I men tioned, namely, the advances made under authority of the Lord Lieutenant's order, and of the letter of my Right Hen. Friend (Mr. Labouchere),—the advances having been made to persons who really wish to assist in carrying this measure into effect, and to effect improvements, mak ing their own estates liable,—we do think it necessary that the terms of the Treasury minute of the Ist of December should be applied to those who have accepted advances under Mr. Labouchere's letter, and that instead of re quiring repayment iu 10 years a period of 22 years shall be taken ; that the provisions for carrying this proposal into effect should be in term) of the Drainage Act of last year; and that in regard to its beneficial employment the whole of that money will be expected to be paid as under that Act.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I have now stated what I think we can do for the present relief 1 of the distress in Ireland. There is, how ever, another question, to which I must confess some what of hesitation in making the proposition I intend to do to the House, but yet, on the whole, we think we are right in recommending - to Parliament that we should bo enabled to grant a sum of 5 3 0 ,e ,0 a 0 r, 01. t „ ha t t c is b o by repaid the 3 s befo re t of December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to pur chasethe Government should make those advanlcet., thema money, noto the ° x e p e r e e d s j e a n 4 t small tenant-farmers themselves, becauhsee Government, seed.—(!logy, hear.) Ido not me s a i n ntok that tthiiee principle is exceedingly dangerous that t a the should an occasion come like the that if these advances were made to the proprietorshi, it the character of a lender, but would measure would not be fraught with harm, w 1 , Sir, in be found beneficial to the country.—(Cheers.) Sir, same stating these measures to the House, I wish, this assumethink pect, to beagle, by any time, to declare that we cannot expect, measures of Government, or °it measures which Parliament may sanction, Ipreseinsto, f we labour.—(Hear, hear.) It is not in the pc: man to do away with the effect of such a calamity. impose on or prevent, the effect of this awful vieiti:tniodnv.t.ettar',:diolrirn:avteharci'cx'oyl Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would US so impossible a task as to make so presump tuousrea an attempt, were it not that I have a iiihy theon one Marquis q o t i t the newspapers of sl iSligo and mr a . n Gee a rg dd e ress most respectable individuals, both per3ens well worthy of deference on the part of their poorer country men. It is stated in the newspapers that they have travelled through twenty-seven counties in order to make their propositions popular.to " We, therefore, earnestly entreat you," they say' next, meet us at Castlebar, at eleven o'clock on Monday r.,,. t . s quietly, peaceably, and like men worthy of tl i i i e i n Podia- Moore, signedbth you mean to demand, then and there to mont to take such steps as may ensurepZi. and the country during the famine which surrounds „ I own, constant, and cheap supply of food to the people famine which is impending over the country. that in a Sir, that I am astonisheel—(Loud cheers) men o time of famine men of educatiorld tell them, ought to love their country—shou ld were were that immediate, i t a h te ts , in the language of this address, . t a o n demand immediate, constant,l)a rl Parliament e a n n t d " e s h t e e a p p s (Cheers.) Why, Sir, that is a task whiheers.) They possible for us to perform.---(Loud„ 'rh o visitation should tell their countrymen, a task made under which we are suffering is h t is a move —t a impossible for man to ra form."—(Cheers). task beyond all human power to per h 5 t to lighten --somevr a miseries of the people—(Cheers) a w a h p. i ep c h h i y it ot f a i y ,s, 0 cod. incurs po,_s. rates tet ooapresentne naoom i tca certain rb o tt r uoa d ti e e n hr containsas t ud t o pe amen.nro degree, 5 enableo . them, masted . the dreadful calamity—in some measure t 0) But they of the people of this country.--; tjn All we can do is in some mode or otho e r :o n Sir, what sur ) nouncement that it • -me more oven than this an . the people of the prises that at Castlebar, wbete slaovreiaate parth are requested to meet, it do es c to he e levy rs .) surrounding counfrsyan m sfao u mh s i t an pe n p o einn t sto i mpagleinnetyt.lta(t cwheee.cra: union workhouse ; that union happen that thereldi happy tendencyhmaeis : 11 0 ; 1 ; and e fceoru themnt counter-cheers. r contain 600 inmates, but it at workhouse shouted more than 130, the doors being f other ersons, tho the admission otu(Bruuts,carcity and even closed against o i ( sth Cheerse r s s Persons ihl in want of food and I cannot but tendency —an u s tale inwgho hav n b which f • might ve _ an , y amine be, not furnished the 11 1 bteeuenadho something, thepracti cability" ot enablepaibdethofusellyrates— —are hom we to others to do for them some g A u m ar ( d m ia g n t s h s o a s y e c a o p l y idered, o to confer h e either visionaryy or i n s most in this proposal which I have more than once (Loud cheers in ) . 2Of thosement or rates due,thfaartaniitthing, the parliame vaguer remarked—to m a rkaeaoddf—i impossiblets.ohirceh some benefit which Bible, while the plain pra he sustenancethe immediate of the starving children in immediate neigh men, women, and , te d and unh rl perform those next bourhood is left neglected . and the Parliament may ctical dut that while therefore,' while we at temptmust, in the make promises yre first place, refuse to ma S w i l r iich l awni.ethe performance of w ill be performed, because I know our ,ani of power; an d , expect those who have Ireland, rs. to paying dpluatciees,, wa a n t l e l h d oemttthhhoul rates assist lufoottut Governmentrhhspaeiot)ni i l t o nh c et a rh l ee dutiesa arduous n e p p ° ve e er r fr f o o yr r in 9 n y , — (Cheers.) Sir, am quite sure that by when I say that we ex mni p many those duties instances of resident pro prietors in Ireland who have been most ready with their money, their time, and with their attendance, in endeavouring to provide for their destitute tenants.— (Cries of "Hear, hear.") Sir, I proceed then to another part of this subject, and I trust the House will give me their attention whil e I ask them to follow the proposal of other measures which m we think may be beneficial not only now, permanently beneficial to Ireland. w, v " tho first place, that we think although a " in may have been unhappily directed from the we :fier.leti m ihe' a e' Yet' iflbt'eh%P g Grie v es e ev :i e i n n neel t t h he r nn e t' e li w wl a tte y . h s t , h's B iii n t;kn d observance these measures, yet of general principles w e i ac t ni h t I do think that we should observe thesegeneralprinciples . , regard that l.rn . thatt' o t s interference 1 l l e t e ' that those three ways ought, as far as possible, and call upon thGhtooovheparany to be kept separate and distinct, namely—that Government, with the support and sanction of Parliament, may grant assistance to individuals— to proprietors--!'or the purpose of improving their private property, to assist in public works, by malsieg loans, or partly by grants for public works which are of evident public utility; and, thirdly, to enact that relief should be given by law to the destitute.—(Cheers.) I think these three modes ought to be kept as far distinct as pcssibe —that is ti say, that when von advance money to a private individual, for the purpose of improving his property, that you should take security so far as this, that it is for that purpose, and not to be spent in extravagance, or for any other purpose—(Cheers)— but laid out simply for the purpose for which it is granted, but that beyond that you should interfere as little as possible with the use of that money.—(Hear, hear.) That, for instance, you should interefere as little as possible in compelling him to employ a certain class of labourers, and to conduct the works in a certain menner, whica, Government may lay down as to the best manner in which they could be performed, or in any other way, which would prevent him from having the free use of the loan advanced by the Government.—(Hear.) Now, Sir, such is the principle of the measure of which lam about to speak. It, is a measure founded on the various Acts which have preceded it, the chief of which is the Drainage Act of het session, and which came into operation on the Ist of December. According to this Act, and the minute of it which appears on the book, it is proposed that certain assistance shall be given for the improvement of estates and for the reclaimation of waste lands, where such improvement of the value shall prove no detriment to the legal heirs, and that the advances for such improve ment shall be provided cut of the public funds. The usual mode has been to grant these advances from the Treasury, on an interest of five per cent. In the Drainage Act of last year, three-and-a-half per cent. was charged, making, with the other expenses, 6i per cent., to be retained for twenty-two years, when the ' sum given be repaid. I propose an advance on the terms of the Drainage Act, and to extend the term for the improvement I have mentioned. In doing this, 1 must say that the Noble Lord opposite is in no way responsible for the deficiency which has been experienced in consequence of the working of the Drainage Act, but I conceive that the improvement of the estates, if the term be extended, as well as the construction of roads, will amply repay the money that has been advanced during that term. lam convinced that the plan which I have adopted is better than that which has been pro posed by the Lord-Lieutenant for the relief of the poor in Ireland. These are the reasons which have prompted me to adopt this measure; and I !Aim that it will not only be found to provide profitable employ ment for the poor, but will also prove of great advan tags to property. We propose also to make a grant for general works, such works as shall not only be important in themselves, but which will prove of permanent ad vantage to the country. We propose thie in addition to the money to be granted to the proprietors of estates, and to give to the Board of Works the general superintendence of the loans We propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend these laws. We propose, likewise, on the same principle to which I have just adverted, namely, the principle of promoting great public works for the benefit of the State, we propose to undertake the reclamation of portions of the waste lands of Ireland. It has long been stated in various reports of Commissions, in reports of Com mittees of this House, in the works of eminent writers, that in many cases the reclamation of the waste lands of Ireland would produce large profits if they were properly cultivated. Mr. Robert Dale, in his most interesting work upon the indus rind resources of Ireland, says, he thinks the estimate of 4,600,000 acres of waste land may be re claimed, farmed, and cultivated with profit, and by no means an exaggerated estimate. Now, we propose to devote a million of money to this purpose, and we propose, should the proprietor of the waste land be unwilling to sell or reclaim his land by means of the loans I have mentioned, or out of his own resources, that there should be a compulsory power to take and improve the waste lands which are below a certain value. We propose that that value should be put down at 2s. 6d. Mr. GOULBUIIIc —ls that the annual value? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes, the annual value. We propose upon this data to improve and reclaim the waste lands so far as general operations are concerned; that is, roads are to be made and general draining is to be effected. The necessary build ings are,to be erected, but we do not propose to take upon ourselves the cultivation of the land. It having been so reclaimed, we propose that it should be divided into lots, not below nor above a certain quantity. Ido not think it necessary to mention figures, but I would say not less than 25, nor more than 50 acres, and when reclaimed, the land shall be let or sold in these quantities ; if let, the tenant at the expiration of his lease to have the option of purchasing his allotment I confess that I do expect that great advantage will arise from this plan. I do expect that a great many persons who have been driven to despair and crime from the great demand for land, will he enabled by such holdings to earn a competent living. I think, also, that you will raise a small class of proprietors who may be very in dustrious and very independent, which will form a very valuable class. Let me say, in the meantime, that, as far as I can form a judgment, I do dot think the small holdings aro the great evil of Ireland. I do believe that the method on which land has been held is the chief source of its want of cultivation ; but I do not think that the small holdings of the country have been injurious : and I have arrived at that conclu sion from the fact, that the most prosperous and best cultivated county in Ireland is Armagh—a county in which the greatest division of land exists. If you com pare the whole province of Ulster with that of Munster, you will find that there are many more divisions in the province of Ulster in proportion to that of Munster. I believe, therefore, in adopting this plan, and by giving a compulsory power, a great advantage may be secured.— (Hear, bear.) Now, Sir, I come to the third class of propositions. I have stated, and I wish to repeat it, that the measures which I am now stating are those which we intend immediately to introduce, and that I am not referring to those which we have in contemplation, and which we think it will be our duty afterwards to propose. But I say these measures, which we now submit, are cal culated to promote the improvement of Ireland, and will enable proprietors to obtain sufficient funds to make great improvements upon their estates, and also to pro vide the means whereby works of a more public nature may be carried out.—(Hear, hear.) The third class of measures to which I have alluded are those intended simply to afford relief to the destitute. It will be remembered that when the Poor-law Corninhrs sion of Inquiry mule its report, it advised that only a certain class should be relieved, and in that class it ex cluded those who were infirm and permanently disabled. We thought, upon the whole, that it was much safer, in the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland, and not to confine the relief to any particular class of men. Sir, it is not only the experience of all thee° acquainted with the present state of things, but it is our own opi nion. founded on a general view of the state of Ireland, that the poor-law should be more extensive than it is. I therefore propose to bring in a Bill for the purpose of more efficiently meeting the distress in Ireland, which shall confer on the poor-law guardians powers to afford relief either in or out of the workhouse to all parties disabled by bodily ailment.—(hear, hear.) This is what we propose inethe Bill to do; and to give due effect to the measure, in th e fi rs t place, the guardians shall have the power, as a general rule, to u se the workhouse as a t es t o f destitution ; and ' in the second place, to afford re li e f to t h e starving people a t their own houses, in or d er to sat i sfy the general feeling of the country on thi s ma t ter. —(Cheers )Sir, I also propose, that in cases wh en t h e workhouse. is full, that the Poor-law Commissi oners s h a l l have powert cs , direct the guardians to give r e li e f out of the workhouse to the able-bodied poor. My op i n i on i s that this power should be cautiously useci and that the workhouse, as a general principle, should be employed as a t est of a able bodied destitution destitution only ; still I think the House will agree with me, that the Poor-law Commissioners should have the power to m a k e a l terat i ons i n the operation' of this test.—(Cheers.) I propose, therefore, that in cases of urgent necessity—that is, in such cases where the able-bodied make application for relief—that these shall be relieved out of the workhouse, but in food only.—(H ear, h ear.) We further' propose that relieving officers shall be appointed, whose duty it shall be to take cognizance of all cases of distress, and who, in urgent cases, when there is danger of the people starving, shall have the power to give relief out of the workhouse till the next meeting', of the board of guardians such meeting to decide on what arrangerneut shall be made for the paupers relieved in this manner in future.—(Hear, hear.) Such therefore, is the nature of the measures which I propose immediately to introduce. There are, as I have stated, other measures which have been and are under the consideration of Government,. With respect to the first class to which I have alluded—that class of measures which enable proprietors to make better use of their own property, to increase their capital and improve their estates—we have under con • sideration measures which shall facilitate the sale of private property.—(Hear, hear.) There are two modes by which it is to be done—one mode is, I think, taken from the general principle of the Copyhold Act. Every one knows that there are private Bills passing every year by which certain individuals are allowed to sell a por tion of their estates, in order to pay off encumbrances One way of carrying into effect the principle I have mentioned would be to propose that there should be general Bills, giving the Commissioners power to exa mine into each case, and then having the Bills passed in another period of the session, by which, instead of one private Bill, many private Bills would be sanctioned by Parliament. Another mode which we have under consideration, by which the same object would be gained, could be done by application to the Court of Chancery. I cannot say decidedly at this moment which mode we shall eventually adopt, but we have the subject under our earnest consideration. I shall in like wise prepare Bills by wh ich those tenures lr eland, which are called long leasehold tenures, renewable for ever, may be converted n into freehold s tenures. I must say, generally speaking, w ith regard to the present unfortunate state ofelrelarnd,erttyheismboesltdinin jurious system is the mod e in which . property various tenures, and under venous conditions be in t t l b ia a t t, country, The present mode appears to a lare of having a small rent charge upon estate. The landlord h as a property d ag b e im nt , s u e under him, and that agent has a middleman u it is impossible to say on whom the duty of property rested.—(Cheers.) It is a question worthy of the attention of Parliament to and o nsi w der it i h s ow pes t s h i e b s l e e t enu res may be simplifie t o connect the pro d, prietor th h the tenant and !eb7nr ,- r in the manner in which the y are connected in Ireland and Scotland. It is to the want of that con n alien that is to be attributed, among the many causes Ireland, the frightful insta nces of destitution which so often reach the ears of the public ; and when inquiry is made as to teho are the persons who ought to be responsible for that destitution, and who are called upon to subscribe for relief, it is impos sible to fix on them or find out who those persons are. It is not so in England and Scotland, where, in the most distressed districts, the proprietors charge themselves and their estates with a considerable debt; they make themselves responsible for advances of money, by which they may relieve their tenants and dependants from the calamity under which they are at present labouring. (Hear, hear). Sir, under the second head of Public Works there comes the subject of fisheries. I have not at present any distinct statement to make upon that subject, but I may inform the House that in the course of last autumn three establishments for the manufacture of salt, fur the purposes of curing, were founded ; there v. as a vast amount of fish caught, but a much ' (*reefer amount might have been had were it not that the fisheries were almost reglected by the fishermen for the:cultivation of their portions of land. We trust, however, to bring forward a measure on this subject in the course of the session. Sir, there is another subject on which I ara likewise, not prepared to make any st Lie meat to the House, but on which I know there arc large expectations entertained in Ireland. It is the very it'll portent subject of emigration. I confess I think that, although Parliament may assist towards emigration, the extravagant expectations that are entertained on this heal can never be realise d. It .is stated by Sir Robert Kane, and most truly stated, that where pauper families have been removed, they never can be removed in such numbers as to have any sensible effect on the remaining population. But there is th's to be considered, that if by some extraordinary effort you can increase the ordinary emigration, if you can expect to convey a million of persons across the seas, you must consider that the question is not simply whether these people have, or have not, the means of profitable labour, you must consider, also, whether there is in the country to which they emigrate such means, and what they are. If by a large addition to the public funds you could convey hundreds of thousands of persons to the United States, the United States would most justly complain that we cast upoii them our paupers, when this was a duty properly incumbent on ourselves. (Hear, hear.) If you introduce hundreds of thousands of paupers into your colonies, you will find that the labour market is glutted, and instead of benefiting the colonies, you perpetuate a race of beggars over the country. The consequence would be the crowding of Nova Scotia and Halifax with beggars. In considering this subject when I held the seals of the Colonial-office, although I confess I 's'as then disposed to go further than I could go, in consequence of the obstacles in my way, arising from the state of the finances, but I did think that the best mode by which emigration could be pro muted was by taking charge of the emigrants, not at his present place of abode, not at the port of his embarkation alone, nor at the port where he disem barked, but conveying him from there to some field where the emigrants might find a mar ket for their labour; accordingly I proposed a certain grant for the purpose of emigration, which has since been continued from time to time, sometimes to a larger and sometimes to a smaller amount. By means of this grant many poor families have been conveyed from Quebec to Montreal, and from Montreal to Kings ton and the interior parts of Western Canada. and been placed in situations where they could earn wages and be comfortably settled. The emigration going on in this way has been in the past years very large. In the year 1845, there went to our North American colonies3l,ooopersons, to the United States 58,000,making a total of nearly 90,000. In the first three quarters of the year 1846, which contains the great bulk of the emigration of the year, there went to our North American colonies 42,404 emigants, to the United States 67,792, making a total of 110,196. The report from the Agent of Emigration in Canada states that "during the past year a much larger number of Irish emi grants had arrived in a state of destitution, as to bed and clothing, exceeding anything that he had ever before witnessed." The report goes on to say, " that among the earlier emigrants there was no distress except that resulting from their own mis conduct, and that employment could be easily obtained at remunerative wages, and that the carrying out of the public works would give additional employment, and that the formation of the Montreal and Quebec Rail• ways would give employment to a much larger number of persons. I should certainly be afraid to give anything like a stimulus to emigration, to such an extent as to send a large number of paupers where they could not obtain the means of support, and involving a large outlay and waste of public money. Under these circumstances it could not be expected that the State would undertake the whole expenses of an extensive system of emigration. Sir, there arc some difficulties with regard to a general system of emi gration which cannot easily be encountered, and the plans on which it is proposed to be carried are oh jectionable, although there are some kinds of emigration which are not objectionable, and to which I hope facili ties will be given. But I do not propose on the part of the State that any Government plan of emi gration should be undertaken, and whether I may or may not bring forward any measure to facilitate emigration on the part of the Government. I wish to give no hope of an extensive system of emigration.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, I know not if the calculations of Sir R. Kane may be taken altce„ether as a sober estimate, but he main tains that there are such resources in Ireland—such agri cultural resources—(Hear) —independently of the mineral resources of the country, and the means of employ ment by water power for manufacture—that no less than 17,000,000 of people could be maintained out of them. I do not enter into this calculation ; but this I say that I do not think, if there were a good system of agriculture introduced—if there were a good security for investment of money in land—(Hear, hear)—if the proprietors themselves- undertook the task of im proving the oountry, if the other classes co-operated with them—l do not think the pre-ent population of Ireland is excessive. —(Hear, hear.) And now, before I conclude, if the House will so far bear with me, I will venture to allude to those countries which apparently had been in as bad a state, so far as their general condition was concerned, as Ireland, and which we now see flourishing, and in the possession of peace. I think there may be some good in that retrospec tion, because I know that in the many evils that have af flicted Ireland—especially in viewing the present cala mity—there are some who are disposed to despair. I do not despair ; I see no reason, unconnected with those laws which happily have ceased to exist—unconnected with unhappy circumstances to which I de not like to allude, but n hick the Poor law Commis sioners have generally inquired into—ueconnected with these circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may not become a state enjoying the greatest prosperity. I will read the description of a country in e hich these evils were stated to occur by an old English writ: r:—" The husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else either by covin or fraud, or violent oppression, they be put beside it; or by wrong and injuries they be so wearied that they be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by the other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart away, poor, wretched souls,—men,women, husbands,wives, fatherless children, widows,woful mothers with their young babes, and the whole household, small in substance and much in number; as husbandry rcquireth many hands; away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accus tomed houses, finding no place to rest in. All their household stuff, which is very little worth, though it might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing of nought; and, when they have wandered about till that be spent, what can they then do but steal, and then justly, partly, be hanged, or else go about a-begging ?" This was a description not unlike that of parts of Ire land, where wretched families, being turned out of their holdings, were driven at once either to the commission of robbery or to go about begging. Yet the description I have read is that given of England by Sir Thomas More—(Hear, hear)—that was an account of England in his day. If any one should suppose this was an effort of the imagination, I can assure him that we have other authentic accounts which corroborate it, and in which it is stated that the people roved about in bands of from 200 to 300 at a time, who lived entirely by stealing or begging, taking cattle from the fields, and committing such excesses, that not anything or any place was safe. In such numbers, indeed, did the people roam, that it is said that as many as seventy thousand thieves, rogues, and vagabonds were hanged in one day. I will now turn to the state of society in another country, where an equal degree of prosperity is known to pre vail. It is a description of the country at the end of the 17th century, and in this description et is stated that so great was the number of families that had been driven from their own homes, that as many as 200,000 to 300,000 individuals were known to be prowling about the country, living by steal ing and begging from door to door. It was, indeed, believed that 100,000 persons who were con tinually on the prowl about the country, and though the poor people who lived upon farms would give relief to as many as forty persons in one day, yet they could not avoid being insulted, or protect themselves from the commission of the most grievous depredations. Such is the description of industrious, sober Scotland at the end of the 17th century.—(Hear, hear.) It shows that a country which has been without order where robbers were, where industry was neglected, may afterwards become orderly and civilised, and I think we should be unworthy of our position as Members of Parliament, if we were to give way to despair. in the present case.—(Cheers.) Sir, I knew, however, that what I have touched upou relating to the social state of Ireland—touching as I have done upon n_3_anay,i!nbe porr.).. tent measures—is but a part of the caso--(tle !!... I am not one of those who think , t hat apart other r er ques tions o eel questions—from political rights—from h connected with political institutions —a merely beneficent Government can restore a country It to prosperity and happiness.—(Cheers.) is my opi nion that other means will be required, and when shall be I proper time comes fo r p re p arin g such measures be ready to undertake anything for the benefit of Ire land ; but, Sir, I feel that, with respect to these and all other measures, that there are things whi c h the Crown cannot grant, which Parliament cannot grant, such as a spirit of self-reliance, a spirit of perseverance.—(Cheers.) I must say plainly that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not that I think I see symptoms amongst the people of Ire land both of a greater reliance upon their own energies, their own exertions, and a greater willingness to co operate with us.—(Cheers.) I b e li eve that they will en courage this spirit amongst themselves—l believe that they will see what has been done in this country and in her neighbour Scotland, by industry, they will; by perseverance,. by never despairing of succ ess —that this spirit, not looki ng a l ways to go on in overnmentfor pro posals, and to Parli ament for enactments—(Cheers)— but see what is th e task immediately before them, and set themselves down heartily and strenuously to perform that task, and prose that there are means and resources in Ireland which may bring these matters to a happy issue. —(Loud cheers.) There is no doubt of the fertility of the Lind. Its fertility has been the theme and admiration of the writers and travellers oj all nations. There is no doubt either of the strength and industry o the inhabitants. The same man who is loitering by the mountain side in Tipperary or in Derry—whose potato crop has just furnished bite with occupation for a few days— who2e wages and whose pig have just enabled hire to pay his rent, and eke out a miserable subsist enc,, has perhaps a brother in Liverpcyil, Glasgow, or London, who, by the sweat of his brow, f_ f.oaa morning till night, is competing the strongest and stoutest laboarers, and is _earning wages equal to any of them.—(l.lear, hear.) Ido not think, therefore, that either the fruitfulness of the land, or the strength or the inditstry of the inha bitants are to be blamed. There have been faults, it is true-=there have been differences—but hsppy will it be for us if we lay the founclation for the cure of these difference.; —(Hear, hear.) Happy %,i!l it be, if the Irish themselves take fur their maxim the precept " Help yourself, and Heaven will help vou," and then I trust that they will find that there have been uses in adversity.—(The Noble LOrd then resumed his seal, amid protracted c h eer i ng .) Sir H. W. BARRON desired to know how the poor were to be supported, and in what way the taxes were to be levied ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I trade a mistake when'. said that rites were to bo levied by the relief com mittees—the rates are t o - b e levied by the board of guardians, and they will have the power to 1,-vy additional rates they may require. The committees will be empowered to receive them, and to this will be addf , d private subscriptions and donations from the Go vernment. Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to have f rom t h e N„hi c Lord some explanation of his statement about Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore refusing to pay the rates at Castlebar. Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had mis apprehended his meaning. He (Lord John Russell) stated that a meeting had been called at Ca,stiebar, and that Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore had proposed and se conded the resolutions to which he had alluded ; and that in the Union of Castlebar there were arrears of rents due, as he had stated ; but he did not say that either the Marquis of Sligo or Mr. Moore were among thsse who were in arrears.—(Hear, hear.) In saying that he did not mean to reflect on the Noble Lord or the other gentleman referred to.—(Hear.) Mr. S. O'BRIEN, who rose amidst considerable con fusion, said his object was to ask the Noble Lord the course the Government intended to adopt in reference, first, to making advances on railway works ? and, second, whether her Majesty's Government, in their con sideration of the present condition of the people of Ireland, had decided on bringing in a Tenants' Compensation Bill, in order to provide for the compensation of tenants in eases of removal? Lard JOHN RUSSELL said, that respect ing making advances for railways, that sub ject had been under consideration, and it was thought unwise to do so generally on works of that description. It was a subject into which the Government was not prepared to go at present. Re garding tenants' compensation, a Bill had been pre pared, but it was not intended to be introduced into that House at present, and would, in all probability, originate in the other House.—(Hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS was desirous f knowing if any arrangements had been made for the poor emigrants who might arrive in the colonies —whether it was their intention to appropriate any capital in the colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, stud the Canadas, in order to encourage emigration to that quarter? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the subject had come under the consideration of his Noble Friend the Secre tary for the Colonies, and the Government was prepared, if proprietors or companies in Canada were willing to construct villages or build dwellings while railways were in the course of construction, to make advances of money to assist them.--(Hear, bear.) Lord CLEMENTS said his question had reference to advances for the cultivation of the land in the colonies, and not for the construction of railroads. Mr. F. FRENCH said that just before the meeting of the House an Hon. Friend of his connected with the late Government had assured him, from information he had received, the measures to be brought forward by her Majesty's Government were likely to prove most distasteful to the Irish Members, and most particularly so to himself. It did not appear to him desirable to go into details as to any part of the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, but he could say that his first proposal was in accordance with the Treasury minute of the Ist of December, with reference to the employment of the people. The objec tionable portion of it appeared to him to be the inter ference of the Board of Works, in the employment of the people. With regard to the proposition of out-door relief, under the poor-law, such a course appeared to him to be most desirable, and altogether the provisions of the Noble Lord appeared to him to claim the utmost admir ation. He admired the distinction drawn by the Noble Lord between the temporary measures for the relief of Ireland, and these likely to become permanent CMCS—those fer the emergency of starvation, and those for the improvement of the country. Ireland bad lately become involved in many serious diffi culties, and those difficulties appeared to him to be increased by the measures adopted by the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth, in tampering with the provision trade, which was at all times a dangerous speculation. He had created a feeling in the minds of the people that it was the duty of the Government to feed them, and that the Government had the power to do it, and that feeling had given rise to considerable discontent and dissatisfaction in the distressed districts that the Government did not perform impossibilities. That feeling had led to the occurrence which had taken place in the county of Galway, in which county, on the coroner's jury sitting to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of a woman who died of want, a verdict of wilful murder was returned against Lord John Russel. The second error which the Right Hon. Baronet's Go vernment committed was, the administering indiscrimi nate out-door relief—seconding the intervention of the Board of Works, the principle of State interference in matters purely private. That the Noble Lord at the head of the Governxent clearly saw the dangers anddifficulties of the position which the Right Hon. Baronet took, was clearly manifested from his first Treasury minute, from his speeches in that House, from his letter to the Duke of Leinster, and many other evidences ; but in the confusion ircidental to the formation of a new Government, the legacy left by the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, the Poor Employment Bill, with all its attendant evils, evils which had created the greatest discontent between landlord and tenant, from cne end of Ireland to the other, became law. The evil was in the very principle of the Act, for he could bear his w-rmest testimony to the great abilities of Mr. Jones and Captain Larkinn. The first evil was in the diversion of the entire population from the cultivation of the soil. According to the statement of the Noble Lord, not less than 480,000 persons were now employed. The commerce of the county was therefore greatly interfered with. In the county which he had the honour to represent, a road from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of 15 miles, which usually took the mail an hour to traverse, now took four and a half hours, and an application was made to Government to grant an additional hour. In fact, the Board of Works were designated throughout the whole of Ireland as the wholesale destroyers of her Majesty's highways. That expenditure of 180,0004 a week was going on in the country, when every eminent agriculturalist who had studied the subject agreed in the opinion that by a proper system of drainage the produce of the soil might be in creased from 25 to 100 fold. Another effect of this public employment was its demoralising in fluence upon the minds of the people, taking from them all self reliance, and encouraging them to look to a system of out-door relief, and fostering habits of laziness and indolence at a period when every exertion should be used to rouse their in dustrial energies. He was glad to hear that the opinions of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth had been somewhat modified since the last session, and he recommended that the army of 10,000 overseers should be disbanded, and labour again caused to flow into its proper channel. That was the expression of the F eneral feeling of the people of Ireland, and their voice had been heard by the Government of the country. When the Lord Lieutenant first issued that letter, known throughout the country as " Labouchere's letter," which the Honourable Member for Limerick had threatened to impeach, its object was to substitute tute productive for unproductive works, and proposing a division of the country into electoral districts, allowing presentments to be made for private interests under the Drainage Act. That letter was not acted upon, because it was provided that the works should be carried on under the Board of Work, thereby entailing an additional cost of cent.. per this evening He anticipated that the measure proeo".di advantages by the Noble Lord would con .th fer t on Ireland. He agreed fully.wr things would of the. Noble tr however lament able Lord's a t d h d e re fu ss tu de spair of might be—as e had nodoubt her present position . a th b er e e tt w er as s n ta o te cause of that after much acute suffering inrewshtaictehohfethsaaltdeoun y e stablished. The the c ountry be re . wou ld ensue, and th e p ros perity of decrees, as well as the calamities, of nature ge nera ll y ila, cau sed a reaction, and often led to th e b est re suits in the human nd Ire frame as the well diff as body politic : thus difficulty and e problem of statesmen, throughthe e fearful ca lamity with - which it had pleased Providence to afflict her, had done that for that country which neither King's nor statesmen had been able to (Met, as it had led to the adoption of measures which would give Ireland a fair field, and which would go far to promote her regeneration. In after years they would have to look back upon these measures, either ;as having promoted the prosperity, or led to the utter ruin of Ireland. Mr. BELLEW thought that indeed the importance of this subject could not be exaggerated, and the feelings of the Irish Members could not but have been gratified by the arrangement which the Noble Lord had proposed. He rejoiced that the principle of rendering the Irish land= lords responsible for the support of their poor had for the first time been adopted in that House that night ; and he thought that the Mombers for England and Scotland would be satisfied with the arrange ment, as it extended the poor-laws from these countries to Ireland. Yet it should be remembered that the rate levied under the poor-law in this country only amounted to one-sixth, or 2s. in the pound, whilst in Ireland it amounted to one•fourth. The Irish landlord WAS generally supposed to be an embarrassed person. It was, therefore, stated that Ow , V