The Sun. — London, England, 1853-03-04 00:00:00

AIPE;iiiAl PAR LIA 11E NT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) REGISTRATION OF ASSURANCES BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second read ing of this bill, the object of which he explained to be to put an end to insecurity of title. He would gladly enhance the transferable value of land. It was not his int ention by it t o c h ange t h e manner b y wh i ch land as a species of property could be dealt with, but only give more facility to its transference. Property in land was very different to any o th er s p ec i es o f property, an d in the transfer of it the vendor had all sorts of difficult opera tions to go throu g h before he could effe c t a sa l e . Th e ven !lorhad it thrown upon him to prove a negative, and though he did no t mean to say that there were many cases of 'rand under this state of things, yet without some mea sure of this sort, no security could be obtained. If such a Measure had been passed 20 years ago, when the first report of the Commissioners was published, he had no Idoubt that incalculable benefits would have resulted from t * (Rear.) Th e ou tli ne o f t h e bill was t hi s. H e wou ld suppose a man to purchase an estate—say Bellenden Park for 5,000/. Af ter t h at t h e man marr i e d an d ma d e a settlement of the property on his wife, to be held by her on his d em i se, and after her death by the i r son. N ow, i _ the present law, in the event of the son wishing to ad' or raise money on that land, he should produce in numerable deeds and documents to prove his title. It ;.W.ould be al so necessary t o exam i ne i n t o th e question as whether any money had been raised, by mortgage or °therwise, on the property during the lifetime of the *vendor's father ; and further, to ascertain if a deed of aPPointment bad been executed by him. The family solicitor might be applied to on the subject, and he might answer "no." But he also might add, that "deceased : was some time in York, where he might have executed such deed o f appo i ntment w i t h ou t th e k now l e d ge o f hi s family ;” so that they would be entirely dependent on sthe honesty of the father, who was the original purchaser. °w, all that would be o b v i a ted by the present mea sure ; f or , i nstead of overhauling t i tle -d ee d s an d h eaps o documents, they need only - apply to the registrar, in case of sale or mortgage of the property, when the title could be easily ascertained ; as, also, every pecuniary circ umstance connec t e d with the property. (Hear, h ear.) That was the scope and object of the measure then befo re th e i r l or d ships ; and without such a measure, e believed perfect security, in cases of purchase and tale of landed property, was impossible. (Hear, hear.) ' e l:m - 1 the very dawn of modern civilisation, in the time of Henry VIII., the registration of deeds had been. kore or less recognised. In the reign of Henry VIII. an a ct was passed for the " enrolment of bargains and . 841 ,"." Again i in the time of the Commonwealth, and -11 usequently, n the reign of Charles 11., the principle Was recognised. In the reign of George I. three ridings of Yorkshire and a portion of Middlesex were brought Mader the operation of the system. Attempts were made towards the close of the 18th century to extend aYstem ; but nothing was done until the reign of 101eorge IV., wh en the noble and learned lord (Lord M ugharn) made his great speech on law reform, which Zfas followed by the Lord Chancellor of the day attaching the Great Seal to a commission constituted to inquire as ,what a men d men t s cou ld b e ma d e i n th e l aw , particu larlyas regard e d th a t i m portant subject— real property. That commission consisted of some very eminent men, hoe from the common law bar, two from Chancery, and ge of invest most excellent conveyancers of the day. they gated the subject very minutely and made venal reports. In their second elaborate report they . °l innended unanimously this system of registration as psystem necessarily the foundation of all real and r actic a l i mpr ovements." They added these remarks, inadequate estimates will be formed of the V ° of the present system i v n considering the cases ere loss arises to purchaseror mortgagees. It is a a n ,, n aiderati on o f th e greatest importance, and one which iriesents the ex i s ti ng ev il i n th e s t ronges t li g ht, th a t, in su tr ansactions respecting the sale of real property, the abppressian of title is treated as a risk to be apprehended ur cl guarded against." In that report the establishment Hengeneral registry was recommended as the . founda se 11 of every improvement ; and he believed it was in con (-I.clnence of that report that his noble and learned friend i;fizn'el. Brougham, we believe), who had not at the time e n la office, had introduced a bill into the House of thu m„,—'u ns•That bill had not been proceeded with, al 4, Ugh a committee of the other house had unanimously 4 1 1 : pved of the principle on which it proceeded. His tvb i Le , ,and learned friend had introduced another bill, Tbs en uad been thrown out by a considerable majority. th fact was, that great opposition bad been offered to f„: Measur e thronghout the country, and had been of lunecl mainly by solicitors, acting, he believed, for the . fla ° , B ,, t Part, from perfectly conscientious motives, and in rthiled by a sincere conviction that the bill, instead of 11 - a eu ; Ying existing evils, would greatly aggravate them. c o e - ‘u• 4o not wonder that wond they er shthat ould entertain such a "lotion. He did not persons who had e t 0 e f"Y investigated the subject should come to the da li T, -41si ml that the measure would be attende d w ith g e lt which there were no advantages to counterba p It had been said that it would lead to the ex g°Bl,-,,,1.ef family transactions, and that persons would ell•r' sit g •int - those deeds from a feeling of improper mon ey Bu o t if parties really wished . to invest their uponl,lll purchasing property, or in advancing loans have there could be no reason why they should not taccess to the deeds by which the title to the pro ."3' was regulated ; and as to the fear that persons ,g/lt examine th ose d ocumen t s f rom mo ti ves o f mere N riosity, he b e li eve d that ' such an apprehension was un 'o Unded, and that people seldom or never looked over deeds without some Justifiable reason. It had also been said that there would be a risk of losing those docu raents. But that risk would be entirely removed by en abling parties to register, not the deeds themselves, but copies of them. In the year 1846 there had taken Place s ome proceedings bearing upon that qu ion. At that time the corn laws had been abolishe nd many Persons thought that measure would very pr jildicially affect the landed interest, .and that some measure ought - to be adopted for the reef of that interest. A com kittee of their lordships' h house,_the had consequently been a ppointed to inquire into burdens on land, and p Ily into the system of local taxation. That Z ) 1 111 :11L ecia did not consist were many of those of wormers, theoretical law and among its members ng their lordships most conversa nt with the wants ,° r id the general condition of the landed interest. He W ould name a few of these members. There were Lord Ite u,esdale, Lord Colchester, the Duke of R ichmond, the S l nte of Bu c ki ng ham, the Marquis of Salisbury, Lord Manley (at present Earl of Derby), the Duke of Buc a„e,.n\eh, the Earl of Malmesbury, and other practical guao/ities on questions relating to landed property. In their report they declared that " the marketable 'value of real property was seriously diminished by th e process of the transfer of land, and that a regis 4sof the titles of all real property was essential t o an y , ''n - IPt to simplify the system of conveyancing." . Some . mars, later a commission had been appointed to inquire 14 1 : 0 that subject. That commission had consisted of the Lord Langdale, of three barristers, namely, Mr. of e t t en den Rer,Mr. Colston, and Mr. Humphrey ; and ioi., - "° eminent solicitors, in order that every important T h "'rest might be represented throughout its inquiries. h and e Y had carefully investigated the question, and they come to the conclusion that without a registry it I nd be idle to speculate on any other reform in respect k„l'eal Property. T hey h had made their report in t e -I ner of th e year 1850 ; an d i n th e y ear 1851 his noble of d (\ l earned f r i en d th e presen t Chi e f Justice of the Court l u Czneen's B enc h h a d , as t h e organ o f th e G o vernment, th e t° Unced into their lordships' house a bill carrying out aft,, re l emnmendations of the commissioners. That bill, to having been read a second time, had been referred Ili a select committee, which, after having sifted the b e ir ti no to the bottom, had suggested what they had tl e ,,, e ' v ed would be improvements in the measure ; and la a ,,i - L s uggesti ons having been adopted the amended bill li o , iB " e en read a third time, and passed their lordships' tad u nanimously, or at least without any division. It Pe be en sent down to the other house, but at so late a ha„. ° ' Of the session, unfortunately, that it could not ,„ been di scusled there, and the measure had cense- I reutly. be en lo s t. Th en ca me the year 1852. The Go newtntent had b een c h ange d e ar ly in that year ; and the 41,4 Ad ministration had not thought proper to deal with well subject. He did not blame them for that. It was ke a ,, " .° wn that they had had many other important hi g b":, n i res of legal reform to consider ; and besides, .their Wh o t' legal functionary, his noble and learned friend to tb''ad Preceded him as Lord Chancellor, was hostile in question. As soon as he (the Lord Liehaai-Slicohran "e ) had b had the honour of receiving the Great dir e had occurred to him that he ought at once to k oa - u " his attention to that subject, and to take up the N ee ll „ r e, 'which their lordships had already sanctioned, ( 10in 2 . - „ n e should find some very strong reason for not n oni i r u :' ° - The bill, as it had been referred to the select ld bave ittee of their lordships in the year 1851, would lions carried out the recommendations of the commis kiatry i n their integrity, and would have settled the re- Nin' t ,,, °l4 the basis of ' a general map of the whole f i •„ - J on the large scale as well as he could recollect,. ,Tw i e " p ' n elles to the ' mile , Two of the commissioners, he had thought that such a map would not afford v ge e 0 4 8 : 8 211 ‘ ode ofattaining the objects of the ; but the mode that for his part he believed that it would eow ev be st pla n if it should be racticable. It appeared, tw ee er, that the formation of the map would cost be thou 2,000,0001. 2,000,000/. and 3,000,000/. ; and it had been tostpgonilte:,hat if . it were proposed that the bill should be oui d u until the map should be made, the public 4 , 1 1 t ecrY naturally think that there existed no serious b -° e n A °.f proceeding with the contemplated reforms. that um not wish that they should expose themselves ' l3 th e ' l nPutation ; and as the map was not .essential °a i t °Peration of the bill, while it might be engrafted ..,et e ,l P ... aftey, and profwhle every private proprietor might Lno lin . i ,:u 4 P drawn his own property, it had been th e 6.4 b advisable not to . insist on the formation of hii as ° lap , the indisp ensa bl e b as i s o f th e meas ure. g bai iite 'e ende avoure d to make the i r lordsh i ps ac nict to d with.th e nature of the bi ll he felt that he oug h t ceeuurn.eoMit notice the main objections which had a ou rea, t 6 rin _apinst it. H e cou ld no t but feel that among ti Whi ch of persons the real obj ec ti on t o it wa s od i t was certainly entitled to v er y grea t we i g ht, th' • ls—that, in spite of the great and almost was '4 B 0, ' li ng array of authority in its o f there l lob " e ve distinguished •• l e un, authority opposed . to it—his 4.Zr(leh:illeeeal!'ned friend, his predecessor in the office of hi o tli cm There were, no doubt, many people a 110bleg that no person was more capable than dud and learned friend of forming a correct 1 ,0 1, bett er uyon the matter, and that they could not 1,: err i or t nan accept his ecision with respect to it. influ e dahi byould not however, he felt assured, Ject a nee U any such reasoning, and would not r t eeo luill Measure which came before them with so many , 11 13 1: 1 0s e e l tda t tlens in its favour, merely because it . was ght 3: his noble and h armed friend, however high I.lt gaidot Avh- I "it w ere the respect for his abilities and attainments. actual objections to the bill. It was dle lira Place, that it was impracticable, because they should have enormous buildings and a vast staff of ' officers to receive and arrange the immense masses of deeds they would have to deal with. But that diffi culty, like many others, when fairly looked in the face, became sensibly diminished. The size of the building and the number of officers they would require would, of , course, depend on the number of deeds to be regis tered. Now, he thought that that number had been greatly over-estimated by his noble and learned friend. But, even if his estimate were a correct one, there would be no insuperable difficulty . in providing a re ceptacle for these deeds in a country in which the Crystal Palace had been raised in the course of five or six months. The •ommissioners of 1829-30 had inquired into that question of the probable number of the deeds to be registered ; and they had found a means of forming a reliable estimate upon the point. There had already been in force a registration of deeds in Yorkshire, although an imperfect one ; and of course the proportion between the area of Yorkshire and the area of England afforded a good test of the proportion which the number of deeds registered in Yorkshire would bear to the number that would be registered in all England. The area of Yorkshire was about 3,800,000 acres ; the area of England and Wales was about 37,100,000 • and as the number of deeds registered in Yorkshire in the year 1829 was 6,900, it followed that if a proportionate number of deeds should be registered in England and Wales, they would amount to a little over 67,000, or say 70,000. It was true that a portion of Yorkshire consisted of waste land ; but Wales presented, on the other side, a propor tionate amount of land of an equally worthless descrip tion. Then, again, they might arrive at an estimate upon that subject by taking the population in Yorkshire and the population in England and Wales. In the year 1821 the population of Yorkshire had amounted to 1,200,000 souls, and the population of England and Wales had amounted to 12,220,000 ; and those propor tions would give to England and Wales 70,265 deeds. The commissioners who had last inquired into the sub ject had come to the conclusion that the number would probably amount at present to 80,000. But he would take it at 100,000 ; and he would ask whether that was a number so great as to prdve unmanageable. Mr. Frere had entered into a very elaborate calculation upon that point. He found that deeds usually consisted of two skins of parchment, that a certain number of them, when made up into nine folds, could be put into a box of a certain size, and that in a house with a frontage of three windows, and of the ordinary depth, accommoda tion could be found for all the deeds of this country for the next sixty years. But that calculation went on the supposition that the deeds were to be registered, while it was the copies only that were to be registered, and those copies would not occupy half as much space as the deeds themselves. There was other evidence to show the practicability of dealing with that case. Mr. Trevor, the comptroller of legacy duties, had been examined before the commissioners • and had informed them that in Somerset-hous e th e y had copies of all the wills and administrations in the United Kingdom, which had been. furnished to them for purposes connected with the taxa tion of the country. These wills amounted for England and Wales to about2s,ooo, and for Ireland and Scotland to little more than 400; making in all, in round numbers, 30,000. Those copies of wills were elaborately endorsed, and careful abstracts of about 20,000 of them were made, while the keeping of them formed but a small portion of the business transacted by 70 clerks, a large number, certainly, but not a very formidable number. Mr. Trevor further informed the commissioner that they never experienced at Somerset-house the slightest difficulty in making out any will they might wish to have produced. In his (the Lord Chancellor's) opinion, that evidence went far to show that the difficulty to which he was then referring was not by any means one which it would be impossible to overcome. Another ob jection to the bill was that it would lead to an exposure of titles. But he had already stated that he considered that it to be no objection at all. But in order to meet the wishes of some parties upon that point, a means was provided by which they might keep their deeds a secret from the world. That object was effected by enabling them to imitate the mode in which stock was transferred in the name of one or more trus- tees. Under the present bill parties might give to trus tees the same power over their lands which were given to trustees over funded property. It was true that the trustees might be disposed to cheat the parties confiding in them ; but he believed that such a disposition would very rarely exist, and in order to guard as much as pos sible against its evil consequences, that bill would con tain a provision under which an inhibition might be ob tained for the purpose of stopping a gross breach of trust by a sale of the property. But it was essential to the working of the system of registration that no ques tion of notice should be admitted, for if a notice were once made necessary all the advantages of a registration would be lost. A further objection to the measure was the expense which it was supposed it would entail. Upon that point, too, he believed that in some quarters considerable misapprehension prevailed. There could certainly be no great expense in getting a copy made of a deed and in transmitting that copy to London. Then, again, it was calculated that the expense of the registra tion office would amount to about 20,000/. a-year, and that expense might be defrayed by a charge of 4s. on each deed, supposing the number of deeds to be 100,000 --f•nd as that was to be an average charge, it might be increased in the case of documents which involved large amounts of property ; and the poorer classes of persons effecting registration need be subjected to hardly any payment at all. He would conclude by moving the se cond reading of : the bill. Lord ST. LEONARD'S presented a petition from the managers of the Provincial Law Association, praying that the bill might not pass their lordships' house. The noble and learned lord, who was almost inaudible in the gallery, then proceeded to say, that he rose with great regret to oppose the btu of his noble and learned friend who had just sat down. His apology for taking that course was, that the measure then under the notice of their lordships had received from him (Lord St. Leonard's) during the last 23 years a most strenuous opposition. Ho had, both in and out of Parliament, been most decided and consistent in protesting against it. Both Houses of Parliament had frequently listened to very elaborate statements in favour of that bill, but nobody had as yet come forward to state the objections to which, in his opinion, it was open. He therefore desired to lay before their lordships the reasons which had influenced him in coming—with reference to that measure—to conclusions quite the contrary of those at which his noble and learned friend upon the woolsack had arrived. He had been rather surprised to hear his own want of coincidence in the views of his noble and learned friend mentioned as forming one ground of objection to the mea sure. If he (Lord St. Leonard's) asked their lordships not to read the bill a second time, it would be only upon prin ciples which had the sanction of reason. Upon those prin ciples, and those only, he desired the support of members upon his own side of the house ; and he felt assured; not withstanding all that had passed upon previous occasions when the objections to the bill had not been put forward, that upon those principles, if clearly established, noble lords opposite would lend him their support. He had this difficulty to encounter at the outset—the bill had, in effect, passed their lordships' house, and therefore. noble lords, if they should upon the occasion upon which he was addressing them vote against it, would appear to be incon siste it, inasmuch as they would be opp osin g , by such a course, a measure of which they had at a former period ap proved. He was sure, however, that the circumstance to which he referred would in no degree influence the decision to which their lordships would come. The bill' which his noble and learned friend had introduced had been originally introduced by the real property commissioners. Those commissioners had, in their investigation upon the sub ject, the advantage of their services of Mr. Duval ; arid if a bill could over be expected to come forward in a perfect shape, it was that which had that evening been laid upon the table of the house. Now, in 1830, the mea sure had been introduced into the other house for the first. time, and it was a second time introduced at the com-' mence - nent of the year 1831. At that period the bill not • only received the sanction of the other house, but the table of that house was loaded with petitions against it. It had been again introduced into the House of Commons at the close of the session of 1831, and had been submitted for the fourth time to the consideration of that house in 1833. On that occasion it had gone to a division, and 82 votes had been recorded against it, while there wore only 69 in its favour. The bill had again been brought forward in the year 1834, and was rejected upon the second reading by a majority of 92. Their lordships would, from these facts, see that there was nothing very surprising in his (Lord St. Leonard's) having taken that opportunity of stating to their lordships, and, through their lordships, to the country, the objections which he entertained to the measure. (Hear, hear.) There had been a commission ap pointed to inquire into the burdens upon land, and he be lieved that commission had been led to believe that relief could be found for those burdens in a general registry. Upon that recommeadation a bill had been brought for ward in the other house upon the subject, and that bill was shortly afterwards dropped. The Government, however, of which Lord John Russell was the head, recommended the measure to the consideration of Parliament. Well, what had been the result? The bill had again been brought, after repeated postponements and great consideration, un der the notice of the Fouse of Commons, and was finally referred to a select committee. That committee had made mea 'rcsh h i' n a report which entirely destroyed the measure as it had a ,,t e e the uponmeasure their re lo hadl been originally framed by the Government, and renderedeps e time,i h e powerless. s heul ß a u s t h , ert no ly t s t t o at t e re t s he p submitted eight times to Parliament since its first 1 • troduc tion ; that it had on each occasion been rejected and, consequently, that all their efforts had been found insuffi cient to pass it into a law. It was, he admitted, aa mea sure calculated to do the greatest service, provided it cou be made to work ; bat it was impossible to reduce it to anything like working order, and it must, therefor e p rove powe rless in effecting the objects which its framers h a d i n view. There were many men, whose opinion it was that the measure would prove to be a snare, and that it would introduce into the system of transfer of land greater con tentions than had ever yet been known to prevail. The ob ject was to alleviate the burdens of the landed interest, but the proposed measure would not lessen those burdens one farthing, and never could. It was one of the most fortu nate of circumstances for the holders of landed property that the bill had not passed into law, but remained still unsettled for the consideration of Parliament. Their lordships had been told by his noble and learned friend upon the woolsack that for centuries it had been the desire of the most learned and able men in this country to have a registry of deeds. If such were the ease, why was it, he would ask, that no measure had ever been passed for carry ing out the views which those individuals were said to have entertained? The system of registering had been tried in Yorkshire, in Middlesex, in Ireland, and in dif ferent• Scotland, and what had been the result ? shapes in The result had been failure in every instance. It had been asserted that the bill would afford safety to purchasers d ; that it would prevent fraud, perjury, and what was calle tacking. Now, his opinion was that the bill would not give to purchasers that security which its framers antici pated. Mr. Duval, in a letter which he had written t aso hills, (Lord St. Leonard's), had given some explana to the mode in which the bill was likely to work. That gentleman had mentioned in that letter that very great pains h a d been taken to render the details of the measure ' as perfect as possible. He had further state would d that h e e be lieved the working of the system proposed b tremely simple; and that, if there were in that system any 1 , apparent complexity, it had arisen altogether from his (Mr. Duval's) desire to leave as little as possible for after deei sion in respect to the matters with which the bill had been framed to deal. Well. Mr. Duval's plan had been pro ceeded upon, and what did their lordships suppose was the decision at which a commission which had been appointed to examine into the working of Mr. Duval's plan had ar rived ? Why that commission had come eo the conclusion that it had proved altogether ineffectual for the attainment of the end which it was desired to attain. That commis sion had illustrated their views by reference to a number of instances in which the plan of Mr. Duval had completely failed. The commission had further stated, that, after a long investigation, their conviction was that the plan of mapping, though specious in theory, had been found deficient in practice. The noble and learned lord then proceeded to comment upon the system of mapping, which he felt assured would be found produc tive of serious expense and inconvenience. He did not think their lordships ought to support a bill which was di rectly opposed to the report of the commissioners. He de nounced the measure before them as one which would pro duce great evils, and no benefit to the landed interest of the country. The expense and the delay which the measure would occasion would be enormous. The bill did not state what the number of registrars and clerks, or what their sa laries and fees would be, and differed in this respect from the first bill, in the schedules of which every charge was specified. It hid been said that the measure would facili tate the transfer of land, but it was a great delusion to sup pose that it would have that effect. Neither would it shorten abstracts or conveyances. Upon that point he spoke with some experience, for the first part of his life was passed in the consideration of the validity of titles. He should like to know whether conveyances had been short ened in Yorkshire, in which county there was a register ? His noble friend had mentioned the number of deeds regis tered in Yorkshire, but he had forgotten to state the num ber that had not been registered. Thousands of titles to property in that county had come under his notice, and he had never seen one in which all the deeds were registered. Something had been said as to the bill being a security against the suppression of titles. In the whole of his ex perience he never knew of a single instanoe of the suppres sion of a really important deed.. The committee of the other house, in 1832, stated that the suppression of deeds was very rare. The Incorporated Law Society, in their petition to the other house against the bill of 1851, stated the same thing, and the commissioners had come to the same conclusion. Why, therefore, should their lordships legislate for particular cases, and sanction an enormous expenditure to guard against the chance of a deed being suppressed. Instead of the bill protecting a purchaser, there was great danger that under it the property might be mortgaged and the title defeated. There was also the dan ger arising from the registrar making a mistake in the name of the purchaser —a mistake which might invalidate his title. In fact, in seeking to remedy a pretended evil they were, by this measure, introducing evils of the greatest magnitude, which would strike at the root of every man's title. It appeared that the registrar was not to be liable for mistakes, but that the person injured was to have re course to the consolidated fund for compensation. Care, however, had been taken to throw impediments in his way, by giving to the registrar power to make new rules and re gulations, which, if the person claiming compensation did not comply with, he would lose all claim. It ought to be understood that there was nothing in the law to render long conveyances necessary. He would undertake to draw a conveyance of any noble lord's whole property on a sheet of common-sized letter paper. What really was wanted was a simplification of the law of real property. At the present day facilities existed for the transfer of land which did not formerly exist. The system of fines and recoveries had been swept away. Instead of a person being now re quired to make out a title for 60, the time had been limited to 40 years ; and the difficulties that formerly existed to bar a dower had been got over. No man more than he desired to cut down unnecessary expense in titles to land. That expense was not so great as it had been represented to be. A country agent had furnished him with a statement of the - whole expense of the transfer of property to the value of 1,068,000/. ' and it did not amount to more than 3,6211, He wished particularly that their lordships would consider what the effect of a registry would be on the lower classes, even down to the labourer. He did not think their lord ships were fully aware of the number and smallness of the purchases of property in land or in houses that NS ere made by persons in humble life. He had received many letters on thi% part of the subject, which he regretted his various duties prevented him answering, pointing out the hardship which the measure would inflict on small purchasers, and generally concurring in the opinion expressed by the com mittee in their report, that a registry was not necessary was not necessary for the safety of such purchasers. He would, however, trouble their lordships with one com munication, which elucidated the question very com pletely : " The counsel and eminent London solicitors, who alone appear to have been consulted on this subject, have little con ception of the number and minuteness of the transactions with which the general practitioner is conversant, and of the effect which would be produced by the additional expense and delay of registration. These would not be proportioned to amount, but would attach themselves without distinction on every transaction. A difference in the rate of registration fees can be a question of only a few shillings—the real bur den lies in those multitudinous details which rest with the solicitor, and which will be exactly as troublesome in the smallest as in the largest transaction. It is important to ex hibit the proportion of small and large transaPtions as ascer tained by actual experience. I believe that the business of my firm represents rather a higher proportion than the aver age business of the kingdom ; for, while the great London offices have many larger transactions, the great body of prac titioners have fewer transactions above 5001. Yet an exami nation of upwards of 300 conveyances and 450 mortgages transacted by my firm in the last three years, exhibits the following per tentage proportion : Conveyances. Mortgages. 3,0001. and upwards 3 4 From 2,0001. to 3,0001 4 3 From 1,0001. to 2,0001 9 }3o 10} 26 From 5001. to 1,0001 l4 • 10 From 4001. to 5001 9 From 3001. to 4001 6 From 2001. to 3001 • l9 From 1001. to 2001.. l7 Under 1001. 12 12 70 11 74 13 26J It appears, therefore, that of conveyances 70 per cent., and of mortgages 74 per cent., are under 500/. I may add that in 40 per cent. of tho conveyances, and in 98 per cent. of the mortgages, we were concerned for both parties. The prevalence of this practice diminishes so much the expense and delay, that the increase of both, resulting from the re gistration, will be out of all proportion to the present amount. In these cases the cost of the conveyances under 500/. has been from 21. to 71., and of mortgages from 11. to 61., in proportion to the amount, exclusive of stamps. There is nothing in the proposed system of registration which will subtract ls. from these minor conveyances and mortgages, and every proceeding under it will be an amount of labour and expense. I have carefully computed the expenses which must be incurred on every occasion, and cannot make them less than 51, on every conveyance, and 41. 10s. on every mortgage, exclusive of registrar's fees, and assuming that printed forms and every facility will be provided. And in the case of a mortgage there will be at least half the same expense incurred in clearing it from the register on its dis charge; and these processes can never be waived, but must invariably be pursued in every transaction groat and small. But the expense, great as it is, will not be the only or even the principal objection. A considerable and indefinite amount of delay must be occasioned. Delay in mortgage transactions is of great moment. Of the 70 per cent. of mortgages under 5001., I venture to say that half were prepared and executed within a week from the application for the money, and, many of them on the same day. Equitable mortgages or memo randa with deposit of title deeds aro invariably completed on the same day, and are commonly managed by bankers in the country, without the interposition of a solicitor. This would now be impossible. In the case of mortgages and conveyances in general, the time occupied in searches and subsequent registration of the deed cannot be much less than 14 days." It was plain that there was a large number of conveyances and mortages of small value in the country, the expenses of which for conveyances varied from 21. to 71., and for mort gages from 11. to 61. in proportion to the amount. Every proceeding in these matters under this bill would be at tended with additional expense. In addition to this there would be a positive delay of 14 days. The bill as it stood would deeply injure the vast body of small purchasers—the expenses and the delays would be ruinous, while no corre sponding benefit in any other direction would be given. The system of registration would be complicated and ex pensive—there would be caveats, inhibitions—going to the court—going to discharge, and other forms, all of which would have to be paid, and, to crown all, the attorney would come from the country to see after the transactions in which he was engaged, and he would of course expect to be paid in proportion to his labours. There was one anomaly in the bill—that you might put a title on the register where no title existed, and refer to some trust do cument in which no trustee was named. This would give an opportunity for fraudulent sales, and thus a man might find that his family was ruined through the agency of a dishonest trustee. Was such a possible state of things to be tolerated ? Instead of having the security of the regis tration of a real title, he`was to be left to the honour or honesty of a man who might possess neither, and the only redress he had was that he might apply for an inhibition, on the ground that he thought the man was an honest man, but found the man was dishonest, for he was about to mortgage his estate without his consent. All sorts of questions would arise, and there would be no end to difficulties. There was one other point, which had reference to a question his noble and learned friend had declared was the most impotant question which could come before Parliament. That ques tion was that in order to make the system work you must do away with notice. Now, the object of registration was t o give knowledge, and, therefore, he thought full notice ought to be given to persons of what was intended with regard to their property. It had been asked, if notice was not to be given, where were they to ent no to ti o ce. far t s h o e , were two-fold—actual and constructive ; If stop ? way to deal e d/3 calleduT htthaat tth eweclasu equity properconstructive s tt t hy e e m w a of the noble and pinartnrens. ywhiinoillesthdanannededts the heads of the always n h o rtakegiesttrhae iplenreeaofidtr learned lioettstdd:h:l remedy e r n doom d c: been ; ef awde u r Yshc t e u la g i t athntaseYwtnee. evil. v Igs d w t o o u common not b e respondedl a w n e qt genet y . ally,The troubletf o r n a t w t a was eopresent required,register. uld 1 • h w the matter • house. This wo exp am o val said : respecting notices stood. Mr. Du t b h ill r pr lo ep rds ar h ed;by Mr. Duval before it was brought into ttihinee He held in the I cla se us nd e you p. 31, as equally di you will find struck out, the commissioners are . laisntteodncootpicye,ofanthaethe Registrationprovsop.B2il4l; which Upon vnisthioen bill s ifi n a o s t broughtvd authorisede d i abbe; conse quencetller Campbell,eporreport t S Sanders, and n paper on the same side, which is in the appendix to the my self, are in favour of the clause, and Bell has written a long lennthao,ttTbioaesrnintechylui,sdßeprdroodi i.e, re portor w ; and o ago which,s dyou in substance, copy bstan o c f e , a p letter s proposes e a inserted day in the bill, and is now struck out. My own impression is, that the provision saving the jurisdictiQu of equity, in cases of actual notice, is highly important." o t te lh to acl The clause to which Mr. Duval referred did away with notice ; but then Mr. Duval added this proviso, ' Provided always that this present provision shall be without preju dice to the provision hereinafter contained for preserving the jurisdiction of courts of equity in cases of fraud,' and by another clause in the act it was provided— " Provided also, and be it further enacted and declared, that this act shall not prejudice the jurisdiction of courts of equity in cases of fraud ; and that the provisions hereinbefore contained for giving priority to subsequent assurances regis tered in the manner required by this act; notwithstanding notice of a prior assurance, or proceeding, or act, or matter, and for protecting assurances executed during 'the :pendency of suits in equity, shall not be construed to enact or declare or imply that actual notice at the time of making any assu rance by this act authorised to be registered, either to the party to or in whose favour such assurance shall be made, or his attorney or agent, of any such prior [assurance, or pro ceeding, or act, or matter, as aforesaid, or of the pendency of any such suit as aforesaid, or of the'presenting of any peti tion or appeal or re h ear i ng i n any such suit, shall 'not be considered or made u se o f as ev id ence of fraud in such party, or his attorney or agen t." By that bill, then, M r . D uva l provided that distinct notice should be bindi ng u p on a party, and that he should not be allowed, as the bill now before their lordships proposed, to defraud a person of his property. On the 30th of March, 1834, lir. Duval wrote again to him,-saying, "There is one point upon which I think I have made some communi cation to you before. It is my clear opinion that equity must retain its jurisdiction in cases of fraud. The former bill had such a provision which I introduced, instead of leaving the party to bring an action, and I never had a doubt of such a clause being ultimately inserted in the bill." The commissioners, then, were equally divided upon the point, and up to the last moment Mr. Duval was of opinion, as he (Lord St. Leonard's) was, and alwdys should remain, that direct notice should be binding upon a party. The object of registration was to give notice. If a man had notice it would bo the most inequitable of all transac tions to say it should not be binding. It was very tedious to go through all the points of the subject, but it was most important that their lordships should be made acquainted with them. Thus it would be seen that the act, as originally drawn, intended to save the jurisdiction of equity in cases of fraud. But this had subsequently been struck out. The noble and learned lord made the original bill of 1851 more stringent by his alterations. But he thought the bill would have no chance of passing the two houses of Legislature in its present shape. In the first place, the great expense and the vast number of deeds to be registered would have to be seriously considered. The Incorporated Law Society, in a memorial to Parliament, had ventured to tell the house that the number of instruments to be registered would be upwards of 300,000, or at the rate of 1,000 a day. This vast mass of documents would have to be examined by a corresponding number of persons, and an enormous deal of room would be required for the deeds and for the accommodation of those who wished to consult them. The expense of each registration would be Si.; and if he de ducted one-third from the number stated by the Law Society there would remain 200,000, and this would bring the expense to 1,000,0001., a-year, besides 2,000,0001. or 3,000,0001. to start with. Were the house prepared to incur that expense ? The object o f the bill, it was said, was to relieve the burdens on land ; it would really increase those burdens. It would necessitate a large expense, without any corresponding benefit. People refused to submit to the house tax. Would they be likely to submit to a regis tration tax of so large an amount —a tax from which, like the house tax, there would be no escape ? The bill in 1851 was called a Bill for Registration in England and Wales. But his noble and learned friend had recently struck out Wales, and he should be glad to know the reason why Wales was excluded ? Lord CAMPBELL—WaIes is comprehended in the bill. Lord ST. LEONARDS—If so, the noble and learned lord deserved great credit for the ingenuity and cleverness with which he had disguised the circumstanc e . He had read the bill through, and had been unable to discover that it extended to Wales. If the bill would work well, he would have given it his support. If they must have a registration, let it be local and domestic, and not central ised, like this bill. The bill was no protection against fraud—it ought not to contain anything by which a man would he enabled behind your back to sell your estate. It was said that the object of a general registration was to prevent forgery; but so far from the bill doing this, it would invite and assist forgery. By this bill there was no cer tainty that a deed was what it was represented to be, a real deed; it might be a forged deed; but, forged or not, it must be registered. He regretted to say that cases of forgery were committed by agents and solicitors, who had a person's deeds, and who used those deeds without the owner's knowledge, executing a mortgage and transferring the land. The forgery in several instances had remained undetected for years, for the offence would not appear on the registration. But registration would give a ce r t a i n validity to a spurious deed, and therefore the bill, instead of being any protection against forgery, added t o its faci lities. There was another point to which he begged t o direct attention, and that had reference to the disclosures of the transactions of private life. At one time it was thought quite right that a party should be compelled to disclose all the circumstances connected with his title. But times changed, and he recollected that Lord Kenyon had told a person who had come into court with his deeds to sit on the box, and let no man see his title. He had to apologise for having trespassed so far on their lordships' attention ; but the importance of the subject demanded a lengthened investigation. However, he hoped his observa tions would be received in the same spirit in which he tendered them. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL felt sanguine, notwithstanding the objections raised by his noble and learned friend (Lord St. Leonard's), that they would go into committee on this bill. Indeed, his noble and learned friend would have acted better had he reserved his observations until the mea sure had arrived at that stage when every objection raised by him could be fully discussed. However, unless the noble and learned lord had more cogent reasons to ad vance against the bill than those put forward by him that evening, he thought his opposition must vanish into thin air. He entertained the highest opinion of the noble and learned lord's acquirements as a lawyer ; indeed, he re garded him as a consummate master of law—(hear)--but, nevertheless, he seemed to have an unaccountable horror of registration. The noble lord declared himself a friend to registration ; if so, why not prove it by going into com mittee, where the ,bill could be moulded into any shape? In every country where registration was adopted it had been eminently successful. It had been so in Scotland, in Ire land, in the colonies, and on the Continent. The noble and learned lord had adverted to the expense of regis tration, as also the necessity of a vast building to contain these documents. He could assure their lordships that the commission which inquired into the subject came to the conclusion that such a building—a fire-proof building—could be erected for 20,0001., and sufficiently extensive to hold all the deeds of England and Wales for the next sixty years, and that for 20,0001. a year, a suffi cient number of officers of character and importance might be engaged to take charge of them. (Hear.) What was more, such an institution might be made self-supporting. (Hear, hear.) Another objection rai se d was th e expense which registration would entail on small purchasers. But though that was objectionable, yet it could easily be re medied in committee, and a scheme devised which might make the expense insignificant. (Hear.) The noble and learned lord relied much on the point that mistakes might be made in the registrar's office, by which loss would be certain to occur to the parties registering. But the noble and learned lord should have remembered that all the officers would be liable to actions in such case ; and, as far as the system was in operation at present, no mistake was ever known to have occurred. As to the objection raised on the ground of disclosure in the case of wills, he should say they had the will of Napoleon Bonaparte to deal with, as well as those of the highest personages in the country, and yet he never heard of any evil resulting, or even com plaint made, on the ground of disclosure. One of the great advantages of the bill was, that under its provisions, when the registration was once made, no subsequent in strument could affect the property. Nis noble and learned friend said that they ought to be governed by the opinion of the solicitors in that.. matter. Now, he admitted that the solicitors were a most respectable and intelligent body of men, but there prevailed among them an esprit de corps, which prevented thein, in his opinion, from being the best judges upon a quektion of this character. The country solicitors were, however, no doubt the most powerful and influential body in the kingdom. They had great influence in both houses of Parliament ; but, notwithstanding that influence, their lordships had on a former occasion passed that measure, and would, he felt persuaded, pass it again. The want of a registration of deeds had long been felt as a great evil in thisgcountry. In the reign of Charles 11. a Parliamentary committee had specially recommended two measures for the benefit of the landed interest—the one being a registration of deeds, and th e o th er the prevention Y to be deri ved f rom a system of nhad in his di ary expressed his belief of advantage of the importation of Irish cattle. (A l augh.) The cele brattehedgrJeoat hnEvel re gistration, while he feared that its adoption would be pre vented by " those locusts," the attorneys. • The first act of the reformed House of Commons had been, he (Lord Campbell) was sorry to say, the rejection of a registration act. That had been an inauspicious commencement of the career of reform ; but he believed it had been mainly owing to the influence which the country solicitors had exercised in that house. With respect to the question of the notice, he believed that it would be a most unwise provision, and one fatal to the efficiency of the bill, th at the necessity of notice should be allowed to throw any doubt upon the title to a property. His noble and learned friend had objected to the measure as one of a centralising character. But his noble and learned friend might, if he should think proper, propose that there should be a registration within every electoral division, or poor-law union, or other district he might choose. He (Lord C.) felt bound, however, to state that he would most strenuously oppose such a proposition; for he believed that a metropolitan registration would be more efficient and more economical than a system of pro vincial registrations. He believed, too, that it would be infinitely less inconvenient. In considering that point, it should be remembered that all England and Wales might at present be looked upon as one great city, and that peo ple at present travelled more rapidly to London from Northumberland or from Cornwall than they had travelled to it not many years ago from Bedfordshire or Warwick shire. With a system of provincial registrations they would have discrepancies of practice, and one great secu rity against litigation would then be destroyed. There were some persons who said, that although a system of re gistration might have been an excellent thing some twenty or thirty years ago, the time for it had gone by. N o w h e believed that greater nonsense than that had never been written or spoken. No other improvement could be a substitute for registration, because registration was the foundation of all improvements in the law of real property. His noble and learned friend had told them that he could, on a page of note-paper, write a deed which would transfer the largest property in the kingdom ; and he (L or d C .) felt that his noble and learned friend could not more benefi cially employ his transcendent talents than i n d raw i ng up a model deed of that kind. (A laugh.) g o s h ou l d go further, and say that if such a deed could b e f ramed he would npassing an act of P arliament making all parties. H e t rusted compulsory i that his noble and learned friend would not di v id e the wot h th ea e rt u i s ly e o e f o i n t c on house against the second reading of the bill ; and if his noble and learned friend should go to a division, he trusted that a majority even of the small number of peers then sitting on the opposition benches, would support the mea sure. He earnestly hoped, for the credit of their lordships' house, that the bill would then be read a second time. It had already been adopted by their lordships, after great deliberation on the part of lay lords as well as of law lords and he should say that upon that question lay l or d s , who were practically conversant with the working of the present system, were as capable of arriving at a correct conclusion as law lords could be. His noble and learned friend had formerly been opposed to other bills recom mended by the real property commissioners, but had since acknowledged that experience had proved to him the bene ficial character of those measures. He confidently believed that in the present instance, as in those former instances, the alarm of his noble and learned friend - would be shown to be groundless, and that the day would come when h e would get up in his place in that house, and tell their lord skips that they had conferred a great benefit on the com munity at large by estab lishing a general registration of (Hoar, hoar,) - a es ear dee& for England and W Lord BEAUMONT said that the second commission which had inquired into that subject had car e f u ll y con sidered the best mode of carrying out the reinsure, and, after Having si , • sifted various plans,had come to th e conc l us i on that Mr. Duval's was the best. Mr. Duval had devi s ed a most ingenious system of indexing, although und er th a t sys tem theite would be a difficulty in getting the titles into the index. That difficulty he proposed as far as possible tore. THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 4, 1853. move by inserting the names of the granters ; and it was true that some inconvenience might occasionally arise from the fact that a number of persons sometimes bore the same name. The commission set about obviating the objections enter tained to the index of names by means of maps. A majority of the commission were in favour of the latter system. However, upon examining into that portion of the subject there were two of the commissioners who dissented from the majority, and the consequence had been that they had returned to the index of names, having effectiid certain alterations and modifications in that system. The plan which had been recommended by Mr. Bellenden Ker and others—namely, to divide the districts of names into various small districts, so as to render it probable that there should not be many persons of the same • name within those districts, was adopted. That plan had, in a great measure, overcome the objections to the system of Mr. Duval, and all the members had concurred in approv ing of it. With reference to the other observations which had fallen from his noble and learned friend (Lord St. Leonard's), he should only remark, that though he had listened to those observations, as being opposed to the bill, with pain, yet that they had been a source of pleasure to him on one account, because he felt that they embraced everything that could be urged against the bill. His noble and learned friend had not denied the statements which had been made by the noble lord upon the woolsack with respect to the inconveniences of the existing system of registration ; he had not denied the insecurity of the title and the thousand other difficulties connected with the sub ject. He trusted that when they went into committee these matters would be discussed fully, and that they would have the advantage of his noble and learned friend's guidance on points upon which he was so eminently en titled to give an opinion. Lord BROUGHAM begged to express his unqualified approval of the principle of the bill ; and he believed he was fully authorised to add that such were also the senti ments with respect to it of his noble and learned friend Lord Lyndhurst. The bill was then read a second time. Their lordships then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(YESTERDAY.) TURKEY, RUSSIA, AND AUSTRIA. Lord D. STUART, who had given notice to call the attention of the house to the affairs of Turkey, as affected by the contest now proceeding in Montenegro, said he rose to bring forward this subject because he believed that by the present position of affairs in the eastern part of Europe those objects which had been always considered by English statesmen as of paramount importance with reference to Turkey were endangered. (Hear.) Large armies of Aus trians were approaching the Turkish frontier on one side, and large armies of Russians on the other. Language of the most peremptory character had been held towards the Sublime Porte, and ultimatums of an extraordinary nature delivered in with very short notice. These proceedings related to the territory of llontenegro—a territory ex tremely small in extent (not above 60 miles in length by 30 or 35 in breadth), and containing only about 100,000 inhabitants, who had always been noted for their lawless and predatory character, and who clearly had always been deemed to be under the sovereignty of Turkey. In 1699 and 1718 treaties between Austria and Turkey, laying down the boundaries between the two countries, including the territory of Montenegro within the dominions of the latter power. And so with all treaties down to the treaty of Vienna in 1815. Of late the Montenegrins had en deavoured to become independent of the Turks, and they had done so under peculiar circumstances. The Montene grins were governed by a bishop, whose authority was hereditary ' • for as the Greek bishops were n o t a ll owe d t o marry, and consequently not to have children—(laughter) —the right to rifle over the country depcended, not from father to son, but from uncle to nephew. One of these bishops having died in the course of the last year, his nephew succeeded him. This nephew was called Prince Daniel, and was about thirty years of age. Having no desire to assume the functions of bishop (the nob episcopari being more sincere with him than was the case in some Protestant countries), this individual wished to act simply as a temporal prince. Prince Daniel accordingly proceeded to St. Petersburgh, in order to procure the assent of the Czar ; not, however, as the head of the Greek Church, as a late Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had supposed. The Emperor of Russia had jurisdiction over those persons professing the Greek religion residing within his own dominions ; but Greek religionists belonging to Turkey looked up to the patriarchs of Constantinople as their spiritual superiors. It was stated that when this Prince arrived at St. Petersburgh, he received advice from the highest quarters to adopt a rebellious course towards the Sultan. Whether that a,sser .. tion was true or not, it was notorious that, immediately upon his return from St. Petersburgh, those disturbances commenced which had led to the present uneasy state of the East, and which had called for the active interference of Turkey. It was said, however, that, notwithstanding this advice to Prince Daniel, the Emperor had given dia metrically opposite advice to the Sultan, recommending the subjugation of the Montenegrins. Thus, Russia would ap pear to have been true to her old policy of exciting discord and animosity between other countries, in order that, to suit her own ends, she mi g ht ultimately be called in as mediator. In taking this course she had only followed the precedent she had set herself inthe case of Poland, Turkey, and ultimately in Hungary. But the Montenegrins, hav ing received this advice from Russia, proceeded to act upon it, commencing incursions upon the neighbouring territory of Turkey, and committing acts of robbery, pillage, and murder. With the commencement of hostilities came the interference of Austria, who addressed very extraordinary and peremptory demands to Turkey, couched in a manner wholly incompatable with the position of that country as an independent state. The Austrians complained that a large army should have been assembled by Turkey, with out previous intimation; they demanded the removal of certain Hungarian refugees engaged near the Austrian ter ritories, and the cession of certain portions of the Turkish territory. So peremptory wero these demands, that the ambassador threatened to withdraw if within five days his ultimatum were not assented to. Now, undoubtedly, the raising of an army might require explanation, but that ex polanation a threats. natiorr o u If t Austriat ob e so sought courteously, taken tha that e andn rse, t o i t i 0 b T y k e s n h s Government would have been quite ready to give an assur ance that the army was not intended as a threat to Austria, but to suppress disturbance, and re-establish a peaceable state of things in k Montenegro. The idea of Turkey enter ' taining any hostile intentions towards Austria was prepos terous, as the slightest consideration of the force of the two Countries would prove. The Montenegrins were a brave and generous people, with whom the Turks had had several encounters, who found great difficulty in subduing them. Montenegro was not an independent state, but as all maps, official or otherwise, would show, a part of Turkey. With what grace, however, could Austria contend for the inde pendence of the Montenegrins ?—that country which only a short time ago had called another independent state a " geographical atom "—that country which, pe in defiance of all treaties, had annexed to it the republic of Cracow, an act which had called forth the protest of England and France. To make the matter worse, the person whom Austria had sent as ambassador to defend the independence of the Montenegrins was no otlier than Count Leinengen, the Military Governor of Cracow. Then came the demand for the removal of the Hungarian refugees. No doubt some of them had embraced the Mahometan faith, but by doing so they acquired all the privileges of Turks. Instead of demanding the extradition of such persons, theirl re moval to some other part of Turkey not on the frontier would have been sufficient. Austria had also put forward the singular claim of being the protector of all Roman Ca tholics within the Turkish dominions. The Turks might with justice say that such an assumed protectorate was un necessary, as in no country were the'Roma,n Catholics per mitted' so free an exercise of their religion and religious rites as in Turkey. No country was more tolerant of all religions than in Turkey. Religious processions were per mitted to passthrough Constantinople without the slightest interference on the part of the Government ; while Pro testants could point to their English bishop at Jerusalem in proof of the toleration extended to Protestantism. In deed, under the Mussulman government, Protestants, Ro man Catholics, and Greeks enjoyed the most perfect in the exercise of their religious rites. He wished the same could be said of some Christian countries which he could name. (Hear.) Austria, who made these de mands, had been the most intolerant state which the world had seen for ages. ' 'lt had persecuted Protestants, it had decimated millions, and, but for the assistance of Turkey, Bohemia would have been exterminated. He feared there was something lurking behind the specious pretences of Austria. If Austria had any quarrel with Turkey she could state ther grievance openly. A few years back had we not seen Austria demanding foreign refugees upon whom to slake her vengeance, and was it not owing to Turkey that they remained in security ? It was plain to every thinking man that under this pretended solicitude for religious freedom and inde pendence lay a vindictive 'spirit against Turkey for the share that power had taken on behalf of Hungary and Kossuth. Turkey, however, had never found fault with Austria for having a large force in Hungary, although that force marched to the confines of the Austrian territory, retreating before the irresistable banner of brave old Bem. The cause of Austria was, in fact, the cause of might against right—illegality against justice. Under such circumstances, he wished to know what would be the policy of the present Government with regard to those transactions—whether they held the same opinions and convictions as to the ne cessity of preserving Turkish independence which had been expressed and felt by former Governments, whether they were Tory, Liberal, or Peelite ? We were bound to sup port Turkey by treaty, and if we did not, the equilibrium of Europe would be destroyed. He did not join in the contempt which some persons felt for the maintenance of this equilibrium, for if Russia and Austria took possession of European Turkey they would acquire such power that it would be difficult for us to interpose, and serious danger would threaten the liberties of Europe. But in a commer cial point of view, it was of the utmost importance to maintain the rule of the Sultan in Turkey. Our commerce with that state had increased in a most prodigious ratio ; for our exports to Turkey for the last 20 years had nearly quadrupled, whilst our exports to Russia had not doubled, and our exports to Austria had absolutely diminished. If Turkey fell under the dominion of Russia or Austria, our trade would suffer most materially. In such an event, how much longer, he would ask, would religion be free in Turkey, or an English bishop be found at Jerusalem ? Austria instead of being our ancient" ally, as she was called, was one of the most modern of empires. The alli ance formed by Marlborough was not with Austria, but with the Emperor of Germany, and a very small portion of the Austrian dominions was German. But look at what was occurring in Italy under Austrian rule, where the people were kept down by large armies, where executions were frequent, and where, owing to the barbarous system of Government pursued, the unfortunate Italians, like crushed worms, were almost turning upon their oppressors. Now it had been very much the fashion to attribute the bad feeling manifested by Austria towards Turkey to the conduct pursued by his noble friend who now filled the office of Secretary for the Home Department. But it was a very remarkable thing that all the proceedings to which ho had been calling the attention of the house took place subsequently to that noble lord's retirement from the Foreign-office of this country. On the other hand, while there was a Government in power which had been always most profuse in its declarations of amity towards Austria, an insult which never could have been expected was per petrated by the Imperial Government against the people of this country ; for Austria was the only state in Europe that refused to send over a field marshal to honour the funeral of our illustrious hero, by whose victories it was no exaggeration to say the Austrian empire had been preserved. (Hear.) He hoped that this question would not be regarded as a party question, for the independ ence of Turkey was a matter that interested all. Were hon. gentlemen Protestants, then he could show th em e that Protestants might expect better treatment from Turkish Government than at the hands either of Arausttrihea 'hae utterance or Russia. Did hon. gentleman belong to t he could - show them that their party had to declarations of the importance of this their leader On the only occasion of his matter, and that house this session stated, in terms for whic ad h, heare addressing the tbhe. Stuart) felt most grateful to him, an d w hi c h did th e right hon. gentleman infinite credit, that he too felt the gravity of the considerations which he had that night urged upon them. And turning to the Treasury benches he saw there men who had for years maintained the neces sity of supporting Turkey. Well, Turkey having agreed to listen to the recommendations which had been pressed upon her by our Government, was now about to pay the price of having so listened to that advice, and was the English Ministry about to allow foreign governments to be avenged on her for her noble conduct, while, at the same time, they satisfied their own lust for power and increase of territory ? He had seen with dissatisfaction the re marks of a portion of the press on the proposed partition of Turkey. That question was discussed just as if there was no doubt of its admissibility, even if things were ripe for it. As to the interest which England had in altering the present position of Turkey, that interest was entirely directed to the possession of Egypt, in order thereby to secure a free passage to our Indian empire. But, in his opinion, that passage was as free and unchecked already as could be wished. He trusted that the good understanding which the house heard with such pleasure the other night existed between the Governments of France and England would make the settlement of this question all the easier, because it was evidently the interest of both countries to protect Turkey, and to preserve the faith of treaties un broken. He must say of the French Government, that ever since the peace it had adhered most rigorously to the treaties which had been made, although, generally, those treaties, were obnoxious to her interests (hear, hear) ; but he was sorry he could not say as much for the other great powers, for Russia and Austria had repeatedly and openly violated the treaty of Vienna. He had no doubt but that Turkey would readily adopt any advice which our Government might give it. It was impossible to divine what the future would unfold ; nevertheless the Govern ment of England was bound to take care that if in the course of time great changes were brought about, that this country should not have to behold Turkey divided between two powers that would overthrow both her religious and civil independence, and would reduce her unfortunate inhabitants to a condition infinitely worse than that in which they were at present. The noble lord concluded by moving for the papers of which he had given notice. Mr. M. MILIqES seconded the motion, and hoped that the independence of Turkey would be preserved by France and England. Lord J. RUSSELL—I trust that my noble friend who has brought forward this motion will not feel it necessary to press for the papers asked for, as the negotiations on the subject have not yet come to a termination. I will, how ever, follow my noble friend in his remarks upon this sub ject to which he professes in his notice to call the atten tion of the house—namely, the affairs of Turkey as affected by the contest now proceeding in Montenegro. I agree in the general principles laid down by my noble friend, that this country ought to be cautious to maintain the indepen dence and integrity of Turkey. Turkey has long formed an important part of the European system. Its indepen dence and integrity have been repeatedly affirmed by treaties, and sanctioned by a convention of the general powers of Europe, no longer ago than in 1804. I trust that that independence may long be maintained, and I own I could not conceive any greater calamity falling on Europe at the present time than that the necessity should arise of considering what should be done in such a case as the dis memberment of Turkey. I have seen, therefore, with pain the speculations that have been recently put forth upon this subject. In my opinion we could not attempt the dismemberment of Turkey by force and aggression without committing a great crime and breach of faith towards Turkey, and a violation of all the ties which bind nations together. (Hear.) I trust there is no Englishman who wishes to be a party to such transactions as those which accompanied the partition of Poland. (Cheers.) But if unfortunately Turkey should fall to pieces from her own weakness, a question of very great importance might arise; and for my own part I own that it appears to me a ques tion of such great gravity that I can hardly expect it to be solved without exciting a war in Europe. lam afraid, looking at the position of the different powers, that it would be hardly possible to provide for such a case without producing in Europe such a preponderance of one power as would neturally raise the envy and opposition of all the other powers, and without producing such a state of anarchy in Asia as it is fearful to contemplate. For my own part I think, therefore, that on grounds of right, of interna tional law, of faith towards our ally, and also on grounds of general policy and expediency, the maintenance of the integrity and independence of Turkeris a great and ruling point in the foreign policy of England. (Hear.) Sir, with respect_ to the transactions which have lately occurred, I will state to the house, without going into the particulars of these negotiations, the general outline of what has oc curred with respect to Montenegro.. I will not enter into questions relating to the other powers, but with regard to the relations between Austria and Turkey I think I can , give at least some explanations to the house. The little territory of Montenegro has been, as my noble friend de scribed it, inhabited by a very hardy race of mountaineers belonging, to a Christian Church, but certainly departing rom the Christian precepts, for it has been their custom to commit robberies upon and to pillage their neighbours, and to enrich themselves by the most lawless proceedings. However, although acknowledged by the treaty of Carlo witz and several others—the latest being that of Pistowa— to be under the sovereignty of Turkey, they have for a long period maintained a de facto independence. For about, a century this independence appears to have been acknow ledged by Russia. There is this difference between the relations of Austria and those of Russia towards Monte- negro—that while Austria has at all times, and up to the present day, acknowledged that Montenegro was subject to Turkey, the Russian Government does not appear to have acknowledged any such claim on the part of the Sultan of Turkey, but, on the contrary, has treated Montenegro as an independent state. For a long tine the bishops of Monte negro, who have combined both the civil and the ecclesias tical power, have been accustomed to resort to St. Peters burgh, to the Russian patriarch, to obtain investiture, in stead of going to the Patriarch of Constantinople, or any other patriarch of the Greek Church equal in authority— indeed, perhaps, as to the Patriarch of Constantinople, superior in authority—to the Russian Patriarch. On the occasion of the last vacancy in the see, by the death of the late bishop, who is generally described as having been a very remarkable man, his nephew went to St. Petersburg, there declared that he did not wish to enter into the eccle- siastical state, and that his friends and fellow-countrymen in Montenegro were willing to acknowledge him as chief without his holding the episcopal dignity, and propose,l that he should therefore rule the people as an independent chief, and that another person should become the Bishop of Montenegro. To this arrangement the Emperor of Russia appears to have lent a willing ear ; and, according to the statement of the Russian Government, the Emperor dis missed the young man with many words of civility, advising him at the same time not to attack his neighbours, or commit any acts of aggression upon them, but to live in peace with Turkey and all the other countries near him. This young prince does not appear to have profited by that ad vice, for we very soon hear of attacks that were made by the people of Montenegro upon neighbouring states—of property being destroyed and houses burned to the ground ; and evidence was given of the inhabitants having been in jured by those who called themselves the subjects of this chief of Montenegro. The Turkish Governmeht, as I think, most justifiably determined to meet this aggression, and to punish those who had been guilty of those attacks upon the subjects of the Sultan ; but in doing so it adopted the plan of attempting the complete conquest of Montenegro. It raised a very large force of 50,000 men ; it placed a very able chief at the head of it, Omer Pacha, who is supposed to have promised the Sultan that he would utterly subdue what the Sultan considered the rebellious part of his dominions. (Hear, hear). It appears to the British Government, and likewise to the French Government, that this was an im prudent proceeding on the part of the Porte. In the first place, on a consideration of the state of the financial re- sources of Turkey, and of its military forces, it was thought that it would be an effort that must be accompanied by a great drain on those resources, and, therefore, was in itself an act not justified by prudence—(hear, hear)—in the next place it appears very probable, as my honourable friend who seconded the motion said, that the destruction and the utter subjugation, and probably the driving away of a great part of the 100,4000 inhabitants of Montenegro, would excite great alarm on the part of the Christian population of the neigh bouring districts, and that a religious war might thus be created. (Hear.) A representation and friendly advice to the Sultan not to attempt this expedition on so large a scale, was made and given under th e G overnmen t o f L or d Derby, and was repeated by me wh en I h e ld th e sea l s o f the Foreign-office. (Hear.) I believe that the French Go vernment, which has generally taken the same view as the British Government has taken, gave at the same time similar advice. However, the expedition went on. I will not now enter into the Military events that followed, but the next matter of great importance to which the attention of her Majesty's Government was called was the mission of Prince Leiningen to the Porte, Whatever may be the object of thatinission, it was evident from the first commu nication that was made by the Austrian Government that Prince Leiningen was instructed to place the demands of Austria before . the Porte in a very peremptory manner, and while on the one hand, it was promised that, if those demands were complied with, the friendly relations which have hitherto existed between the two countries would be resumed on their former footing, on the other hand, it was stated that the most grave consequences might follow from the refusal of those demands. (Hear, hear.) Her Ma jesty's Government thought it necessary, on the intima tion of such demands, to have at once a frank explanation with the Government of the Emperor of Austria. (Hear, hear.) We communicated to the Government of the Em peror of Austria the view we had always taken of the policy of maintaining the independence and integrity of Turkey. We pointed out, without entering into the par ticular merits of the demands that were made, the danger of anything like a menace to Turkey, and of a collision be tween the forces of the two empires. (Hear.) I must say , that the explanations we received from Austria showed that, whatever might be the necessity for making those de mands at the present time, Austria was animated, accord ing to assurances to which we gave full credit, by the same desire as ourselves of maintaining the independence of Tur key, and expressed the strongest wish to be enabled to re store those amicable relations so very long maintained be tween them, and of adhering to the policy of preserving the independence of Turkey, which is known to be the policy of that great empire. (Hear, hear.) The demands made by Austria were of various kinds, to some of whi c h I need hardly refer, but with respect to Montenegro h er demand did not depart from the provisions of th e t reaty to which I have referred, nor did it depart, as might ba re been expected from a power that has always maintained the greatest respect for the international law of Europe, i i , disturbedtntun. principle from the claims that might be justified by -- law. (Hear, hear.) It was said that though Monte not but raise that ure belonged to Turkey, yet for a long period of tee c a . - 111 t (l hat, ag r e ndependence of the mountaineers had not been Montenegro —that disturbances the n invasion the o f r o f n a t i er greatof armyAustria — that nstr i ber of persons would take refuge across to make the maintenance of tran wait the frontier, so as tremely difficult, and make it necessary y on that frontier e up a great force in orde t • cet!sary for Austria to keep r o maintain th dominions. (Hear, hear.) she sc a t the tranquility of her of a religious war to which I have a lluded, likewise the danger was conceived would cause more a da utl ed, and which it else. She therefore wished, that • a nger than anything part from the maintenance of whil Turkey did not de punish those who committe her title —while she should territories —she should. look ( acts of pillage in the Turkish to the restoration of the , as the end of the controversy, and the maintenance of thiladependence of litiol!fl l l 3 r w, f tenegro had hitherto held e independent power whyhtnintwo portions of territory an 11 (H.ear.) Wil r o e n ga tte Part of Austria of a complicated nature, was made, , _„ nag . pon complicated evidence . T nature, and w_hi e o r n i ffr are inter minl with the ce.hose p A ortr a s o a f n t d th ir v i T ro so. ,2inter mingledg because they territor y formerly of bel n ort,o Ragusa, while other portions of territorYo the treaty of Vienna were formerly of Venice. (Hear, hear.) always stated. that a t o the rcT s ubi to .A.O tria by v s en of the republic A„,,,- G ove rnment has P° Th° thtorise intermingled ter the position °f lier ; , ritories was very inconveniernotuZ in 1832 and 1833 she endea anu so long ago Ila to obtain, by purchase .. 1 from Turkey, the sovereignty of this portion of territory. Having failed in the negotiation at that time, and never having been able to accomplish her object since, she claims rights which she says were exercised by the Venetian Re public ; and while the land is allowed to be the property of Turkey, she alleges that no approach should be made for the purposes of trade or intercourse to the shore by Turkey, and that Venice had always kept ships of war ) b je 7 ta it l h m re e ga nt rd ion to , I thi am s sunobt juepoctn, as th wi at t c h oa i s: a . ax stating that Austria is well founded in all her allegations ; d (H to o ear tl h e e r ar su . I am only endeavouring to give the house some insight into the nature of her claims, and the reasons which governed the mission of Prince Leiningen. (Hear.) Another com plaint which was made by Austria was that some Hunga rian refugees, who bad remained in Turkey from the time the war in Hungary ceased, were not only countenanced by Turkey, but allowed to serve in the army of Omer Pacha, and held distinguished posts in that army, and, being close to the frontier of Austria, were necessarily a cause of much annoyance to Austria. With respect to the Hungarian refugees who were permitted to leave Turkey, but had r ema i ned there, the Turkish Government had pro mised to m a k e some explanation why Turkey had acted in a manner that was contra to an engagement—not a written engagement, but a verbal engagement—into which she had entered with reference to them. Added to these demands, there are other questions with respect to Austrian subjects who are alleged to have suffered wrongs, and who have not received redress from the Turkish Government, and for whom the Austrian Government now demands reparation or compensation. (Hear, hear.) Such was the general ntootlabyeibengfocralleedtheupoPnorteto. make a e r a , n h y ett ai r ie ) ga nature of the dem an d s w hi ch Prince Leiningen was ordered tion ca e n i n th ot er sa arto the justice or injustice of those demands, in a par ticular manner—l canno t say that there was any one of them that could be said to affect the independence of the Sultan, and which were not founded at least upon some allegation on which the Austrian Government might fair rely as a Government not unfriendly to th a t inde pen ence. (Hear.) Sir, lam una bl e t o i nform the house as the exact ar rangemen t th a t h as b een made. I know that these question s were placed before the Turkish Govern ! ment, and that for some days there was a great deal of con sultation on them • and we have been informed by our am bassidor at the C ourt of Vienna that the Austrian Govern. ment is satisfied that the mission of Prince Leiningen has been successful, and I trust those differences are at an end. (Hear.) I trust that, such being the case, the relations between those countries will again be place d on their for mer "ntimate and friendly footing. With respect to other questions to which my noble friend has incidentally al- NI luded, I do not think that any public purpose could be served by my entering at present into them, as there are questions still pending which are of vital importance. Our= course throughout those proceedings' has been, and our Course throughout any future procings will be, to give Turkey the advice that is best calculated to maintain her honour and independence, and at the same time not to expose her to the rude shock of war, for which she might not be at present prepared. No man more than Lord Strat ford,;who is already I believe proceeding on his voyage there, will enforce this opinion, that by the good government of the Christian subjects of the Porte, by the enforcement of re gular laws, by the maintenance of a system similar to that which prevails in civilised European communities, and by adopting and enforcing just principles, she ought to give ker Chrirttian subjects no reason to complain that they are not living under a Sovereign of the same faith as themselves. I believe, as stated by my hon. friend who seconded this mo tion, that this much is perfectly practicable; I believe it is quite possible for Turkey—discarding some of those notions that helong to times of conquest, when the Turks first got posse ion of those very territories—to give to its Christian subjects quite as good a government as they would be likelY, to obtain from those sovereigns that are the neigh bours of the Porte. (Hear, hear.) If she conducts herself in that way, and takes the friendly advice of the ambas sador that is now proceeding to the Porte, I need hardly say that Turkey will always find a faithful ally in Great Brit*. (Hear.) We have no object to serve other than a most friendly one—we covet none of her provinces —we wish to share in none of her territories. It is our interest, as we conceive, in common with all the powers of Europe, that Turkey should be maintained in its integrity, and that likewise it should be governed in such a manner as not to be tvisited by those insurrections, by those perpetually recurring weaknesses, and by tho se dissensions which have offereti the best temptation to the foreign foe to be her ItggreSsor. (Hear, hear.) I trust that th e o th er powers of Europe will ta ke a similar view to ourselves. Many of the dangers which threatened her very lately I trust are now passed, and I have the greatest confidence that the dangers which still remain may, by fair negotia tion, and by a reasonable consideration of 'all the con; sequences, be brought to a pacific solution, and that the maintenance of the present territorial distribution of Europe may be preserved. (Hear.) We have had fre quenticommunications with the French Government dur ing those negotiations. I am happy to find that, with the exception of one question, which I think it is not necessary to raise at present —a question in which we dolnot take an immediate interest, and which has refer ence tt the holy places —we have acted in perfect concur rence with the French Government, and I trust that all our expectations will be accomplished. (Hear.) Lord D. STUART was understood to express his satis faction at the explanation which had been given by the noble lord, but reserved to himself the right of again re ferring to the subject. DISQUALIFICATION OF JUDICIAL OFFICERS TO SIT IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS. Lord HOTHAM moved for leave to bring in a bill to disqualify certain judicial officers for sitting in the House of Commons. Leave was granted. ; THE TARIFF—IMPORT DUTIES. Mr lITTME, pursuant to notice, then rose to ma - re-- " That it appears, by returns on the table of the house, that there are 233 entries in the Custom-house tariff list of foreign manufactured articles charged in the year 1851 with duties of import, varying in amount from 1 to 50 per cent. on the value of such articles, and such articles may be classed under five schedules or lists—viz., producing in Schedule Import Duty. No. 1 each article produc. 129 articles produc ing under £lOO of ing the aggre -2 500 ... 37 , duty gate sum of ... 3 1,000 17 4 - ... 5,000 30 5 ... 100,000 ... 20 £2,349 9,366 11,351 67,629 343,459 No. 233 and duty .. £434,154 Also that there are entries in the Custom-house tariff of fo reign agricultural produce charged with import duties, vary ino• in amount, and these articles may b e c l asse d under six heads b or schedules—namely, in Schedule Import Duty. No. 1 each article produc- 25 articles produc ing under £lOO of i ng th e aggre duty sum of 500 ... £382 1,729 2,911 30,140 533,733 347,540 1,000 ... 5,000 ::: li 100,000 ... 12 500,000 _. 2 No. 42 and duty...... 916,43.5 That whilst the agricultural produce of wheat, barley, oats, and other grain, and oxen, sheep, goats, and other animals are adniitted duty free to compete with similar productions of the United Kingdom, it is both impolitic and unjust to the country, and to the agricultural interests especially to continue duties of import on articles of foreign manufacture of the same kind and class with those manufactured in the United Kingdom, as by these protective duties on imports the fair competition of foreign manufactured articles with the articles of British manufacture is prevented. That this house will, at an early period, take into its consideration the duties that are strictly protective in the existing taxi on articles of import into this country, both of manufac tures and agricultural produce, with the view' of speedily repealing the same, as affecting unfairly every interest in the country." The lion. member said he had all his life been opposed to commercial as well as political monopolies. The piinci i ples of free trade he had advocated even before he became a member of that house ; and he thought he might say, his efforts in that direction had not been altogether without advantage to the public, or in vain. (Hear.) With regard to the import duties referred to in the last clause of his resolution, the operation of most of them was to diminish consumption, at the same time that benefit accrued neither to the home prodncer nor the public revenue. Of late years th,e revenue from this source had declined, and the to the &stoma and Excise, had proved but a sorry expo attemp4 to make up the deficiency by adding 5 per cent. expe dient. Having enumerated some of the anomalies and in congruities still existing in the tariff, the hon. member said, all he asked the house to do now was to carry out free trade, and remove the remaining protective duties. ' sa..tith-e-131;871 Already protection had been taken off the produce of the land, and immense quantities of agricultural produce were brought in from all parts of the world. Yet notwithstand ing the predictions that the importations of cattle, sh eep, swine, and other articles, would utterly ruin the r, the prices of all these commodities were higher n wun th a t ... 4 they were before the free trade system Was adoDte7,.. the law of the land. What was more, they had the - ;If — ac t — C a : of witnessing the greatest contentment crteoureonimftettn:,ehxnweethiisgpiasseeehrv:manadi:adiy:eosouf:fwasEL3ocit;raissie:enbi. the people—a sure evidence of an ample snionl te he oafththere manufactures. given a.nd constant i: otthe e employment. cotton p s e lo y itn e h n ae t oy he now recommended. °f the Customs duties, the removal, in the case of the former, n ite of m th wa e wisdom s t d h o e m le l An stra oth t e i° r duty on these of 9,140/. and he lrinfacturea. There was a the revenue was so triflin g and that, as the benefit to great, it would be repeale: the benefit to the poor so —the linen manufacture There was still another item while this country exported ''''' ', B only brought in 4,6701. i 1 8,500,000 of twist , 1 ' -42,000 ,000 yards of y arn an " Of silk there was a a value of over 4,000,000/. sterling. yards. There Was value from this country 1 , 255, T. ad va/orem—whilp IA duty on wool of 13,0001.- 5 Pet cent. the amountof . England was exporting w oollen cloths be 1 3,000 000/ sto lin Why s hould there any fear on tv, , • r g. Y therefore hoped the Chancellor every semblance of protection to British manufacturers — they wanted none of it. (Hear.) The next schedule was Th e holeof H e thoughtl'._ 7 articles of agricultural produce. The duty on this should be admitted as freely as s co7l._ cheese, 5,00 u/. Then came butter was 58,000/. ; that on mustard of which seeds —rape, carraway, carrot, clover, to ss• the bushel. He did had a duty varying from 2s. 6d oi have the seed free as well not see why the land should J ed t a llow, which brought as the produce. A s "gender changed circumstances, as 78 , 00 0 1 ., this country "as u e from Russia, whereas now commodity Cara • it. The export of formerly that . woul d furnish a the Australian colonies mounted to 1, 290 , 000 1 b. ; but it soap from this country tallow wax free. He would show the e ater if these reductions could be would be gr Exchequer how Chancellor of the ~ from what had taken place, all re --1 Coneluoing of free trade would increase the afford.... principles ductions on the increasing th e prosperity of the country. reven ue by I en tl ema n then entered into elabor a t e [The honours, g s tements to prov e that previous reductions of duty had ta no t injured but i n creased the revenue.] . This was shown ase of sugar, coffee, and brandy. It would fully in the as regarded tbe articles producing th b e the smile • while the comfortsofthe - e 1, 300,000/. in question , would be greatly augmented. The manufacturer paid f rom 7 to 10 per cent. on wrapping -paper for articles of tinware and cutlery ; the reduction of that duty would be an immense boon. The excise duty on soap was another tax that should be taken off. In 1821 there 93,000,000 pounds of soap manufactured were duty of 3d. per pound ; that duty wasreducedonansmeri manufacture had risen in 1851 to - the The revenue had not Suffered 197 500 ' 11°0 pounds. - called on the right hon either. He, therefore, in to remove this tax in the interest of the manufa,ct therefore, to affirm his rarer. He asked the house, propositions. If there was to be I