The Sun. — London, England, 1832-03-14 00:00:00

tea hero ia too great a hurry in introducing this measure to the House, the Committee up stairs not having yet concluded its labours ; but my excuse for this precipita tion must he the extreme urgency of the subject, which is tin well known by Hon. Gentlemen, and too distincoly pointed out by the Report of the Committee, to require any comment from me. Indeed, one of ti-e most remark able facts connected with this question is the eXtreotelinary manner in which it has, within the short space of eigh teen months, spread itself in every direction in Ireland. Last June twelvemonth it first showed itself in one pa- tish ; and now, according to the evidence selduced before the Committee, it appears that it. embraces at least one-third of Ireland. Aretoeicing to the testi mony of Sir John Harvey, the Whole of Leinster is affected by this spirit of combination ; and from the evidence of other persons it appears that the same spirit exists in Kildare, Tipperary, Cork, Wa•erford, Limetick, and in a trifling degree in Kerry ; nor is even this all—the impulse is not confined to the Catholic counties of Ireland, but has oven been felt in Londonderry, Armagh, and Danegal.— Hear, heir.) Now, Sir, what does ill this prove? Te my mind it proves that this is no traneient but that it is a display of feeling proceeding from a deep rooted disease—a disease which was already in progress before the present Government came into power. The teens, however, that the present Government has telsen, are those which were thought best calculsted to meet the exigency of the ease. Every possible protection which an overwhelming military force s joined to a large police establishment, collected from the various counties, could afford, was afforded for the recovery of the tithes, or rather for the protection of those persons who were em ployed in enforcing their payment, Let the House look to the evidence of Major Brown, who says, " On the 3d of March I marched into Graigue, with 120 men of the county of Kilkenny Constabulary, and on the 4th the drivers went out with an ademaerc escort. I was employed upon this duty until the 4th of May—a period of two months, during which time the police were inde fatigoblc in their exertions, out every day, and frepently twice a day, and traversing a great extent of country upon every excursion." This evidence of Major Brown is abundantly confirmed by that of other witnesses who speak on the same subject ; and, above all, I may refer to the letter of Sir John Harvey, in Appendix, `;o. 11. for the purpose of showing how rapid wes the spread of the feeling of resistance. Sir John Hat vey, in his letter to Sir W. Gosset, says, " The only measure of relief which I have been enabled to afford Dr. Hamilton end Mr. Langrishe (of Knockcopher), has been to order the chief constable from Piltown (Bessborough), where all is quiet, to establish himself with all the disposable constables of his district, until further orders, at Knocktopher, to protect the drivers and process-servers of those Rev. Gentlemen, So soon as the company of infantry, therefore, is placed at Castlecomere the tithe proceedings will he in operation in the greatest part of the county, as well as in the adjoin ing county of Carlow." Thus, within two or three months after the first intimation of an organised resistance to the payment of tithes, a military force, in conjunction with the police, was put in active operation through two counties of Ireland, their most active services being fully recog nised by the state of those counties. It must also he ob served, that the mode of opposition offered to the Govern ment, and to those employed in the collection of the tithes, was such as to render all operations most difficult. Intimidation and violence against the precess-server—corn binations against the seizure and purchase of cattle—in short, every symptom which ran mark a determined op ',coition on the part of a whole population, acting as one man, against the imposition of a legal due, have been de ve'oped in Ireland on this occasion. So much has this system been acted on, that in the progress of the pro ceedings it has not only been difficult to get a process served, but even a matter of impossibility in many of the towns of Ireland to get an attorney to take a fee from a client, or to give his legal assistance for the purpose of obtaining the execution of the law in tithe pro cesses. I can assure the Committee that this is a fact, though no doubt it will appear so incredible, that I feel it incumbent on me to substantiate the statement by evidence. What does Mr. Fitzgerald say on this subject? —" Supposing even that this difficulty were got over of the serving of the process, the next is to find an attorney who will undertake to move those pi ocesses at Quarter Sessions; and in most places, of late, the attorneys have, generally speaking, been so intimidated that they have refused to move tithe processes. In fact, one case came under my own knowledge, where four Magistrates, from a remote part of the country, on their way to attend the Thurlen Quarter Sessions upon magisterial business, were mistaken at the entrance of the town of Thurles for four attorneys; and the mob told them on no account or pre tence to dare move the tithe processes, for if they did they would never leave that part of the country alive." Now, in speaking of intimidation in Ireland, let it be remem bered that it is a very different thing from England. English gentlemen, who are used to that habitual secu rity which they derive from the law, who know that the feeling of the whole population of the country is embarked on the side of the law—for there is scarcely any man in this country who does not think it rather creditable than otherwise to forward the ends of justice. English gentlemen, I say, can have no idea of the extent to which threats and anonymous notices, which in England wculd be looked on with contempt, have power and influence over the minds not of the lowest and most degraded, but of psr sons in a comparatively high and respectable situation in Ireland ; nor can they understand how much more easy it is for this system of intimidation to gain strentith in Ire land, where there is a poor and scattered population, resi• ding in miserable and easily destroyed houses.—(Hear.) Let Hon. Gentlemen remember that the popul ition of Ire land is a population shalt of work, and therefore always ready for violence, all of which circumstances render it the more easy for those threats to be carried into (fleet in spite of the best pik, and the most vigilant conduct of any Government that ever existed. Sir, 1 have mentioned these things merely to account for that which, without this explanation, might have appeared incredible to English gentlemen—namely, that mere threatening no tices, which here would be scorned at, should exercise such strong and irresistible influence over the minds of respectable persons in Ireland. But after all there is no necessity for us to dispute about the question of how far it is reasonable that such intimidation should carry weight with them. It is enough for us to know that they have their influence, and have had long before the present time. From the earliest days of Ireland do we not hear of similar violence being exhibited on the subject of tithes ? Has there ever a year, or even a month passed without our hearing of process-servers being exposed to popular vio lence, carried to such an extent as frequently to terminate in bloodshed and murder ? Nor is this all. The whole of this re-acts again in itself; and the consequence of this violence has been, to render the office of process-server taken up by none but men of desperate fortunes and doubtful characters, who from their conduct have, doubt less, too frequently provoked violence in such a way as, if not to justify, at least almost to palliate the outrages com mitted against them. But even supposing that no vio lence whatever had been exhibited, there would still be sufficient difficulty remaining, fur the consequence of the tacit combination that has taken place among the people has been, that -no seizuroe can be sold. On this subject Major Brown states:—" The whole population was con stantly on the watch, and signals made announcing the approach of the drivers and police ; the cattle were driven home by the farmers, whenever it was pos sible, and placed under lock and. key ; and as the law did not perMit doors to be broken, the seizures made were not so numerous as would otherwise have been the case. The cattle, after seizure, were placed in the pound, and invariably bought by the owners'on the day of sale." The evidence of Sir J. Hervey on this point is also very important :—" By doing what we did at Graigue, employing an overwhelming force, and applying that force to one particular parish for a period of two months, we were enabled at the end of that two months to collect about one-third of the arrears due to theclergy man ; and by that period another arre.ir of half a year had becom e due; so that with all the force the Government could bring to bear in the county of Kilkenny, not a tithe of the tithe of the clergy was collected in the course of two months, but only one-third of one parish." At one tune we heard a great deal about this opposition being con hoed to one pariah, and now I suppose it will be con tended that it does not extend beyond two or three dio ceses. Now, Sir, l am willing to admit that actual re sistance had not been displayed in more than two or three dioceses; but if we suppose that the same spirit is not extending to very many more districts in Ireland, we shall very much deceive ourselves ; for we shall find, if we refer to the evidence, th a t t h e c l ergy are under a deep sense of the impassibility of recovering their rights, and the responsibility to which, as men and Chris. tian Ministers, they are exposed in insisting on tt• right which tends to bloodshed and tumult. But, because they feel this, are they to submit to a total annihilation of their income, and to be reduced to the extremist distress? That such is the condition of the Clergy is so well known, that it would hardly be n ecessaey . to quote single passages in support of the position, were it nut that, on a former night it seemed to be maintained that the Clergy were not suf fering under that pressing distress which the Govern ment would represent to Parliament as the real fact of the case.--(Heir, hear, hear)—and as this is a point on which I should he sorry that the Ccimmittee should pro. ceed on imperfect information, I trust that I shall be ex cused It I substantiate this part of my argument by one or t:: o extrac:s from the evidence given hefore the Corn: ) mittee. Mr. Fitzgerald, in answer to question 173 states, tilt " Archdeacon Cotton and the Rev. Mr. Wooodward . have both positively declined pressing their claims. Mr. Woodward said that he could not consci entiously seek tithes th it must be enforced with the probable effusion of blood." Mr. Fitzgerald is then asked. " Is it within your I'mowledge that many of the clergy are, in eottseqUence of this opposition, reduced to great distress 1" To which he replied; " I know that !h e y arc in great destitution ; men who list year had an ineotne of SOO/. to 1,2001. a year, are this year in want of the necessaries of life." The evidence of Sir John Hervey is pretty npicli to the mime I efect ; take this par fion as a sample .—" You have stated the destitute condi tion of the clergy in Kilkenny ; can yon state how many years' tithe may be due to any one of those gentlemen ? I have heard, in some instances, two or three years. What do you mean to itinply by their being in a destitute condition ; do you mean to say that they have not re sources to buy food ?—A gent!- man, with whom I am well acquainted, told me that I e had just been sending a sheep and a few potatoes, and a sittall note, to a gentleman who was formerly in comparative affluence, and that he had neithea a shilling nor a pound of meat or bread in his house." But I need not quote any further : it is suffi cient to sly that this evidence is corroborated over and over again by persons who can have no interest in making the matter appear stronger than it really is. Let me, however, juet say, that Sir .1. Hervey, in another part of hie evidence, describes the Clergy as in a state of most pitiable distress; and in the Appendix, Dr. Hamilton states that " the Clergy are really in a most pitiable state ; he knows two In absolute want." But, perhaps, the strongest instance I can mention is, the statement contained in the letter of the Rev. Mr. Moore to Sir W. Gosset. Mr. Moore, at all event, is not one of these sinecurist Clergy men against whom there has been such an outcry; he is not one et those pampered individuals who have been abused and cried out against for living in the luxury of the land ; on the contrary, he is an individual living —or, I should rather say, starving on a miserable pittance of 70/. or SO/. a year, which be cannot get paid. But I will let hie. letter speak for itself. " Three years have elapsed since the appointment to my present Curacy took place; for the first year my salary was punctually paid, but for the last two years I may say it has ceased. Although my Rector is most anxious to pay me my small pittance, yet, from the continued reluctance and increased resistance to pay tithes, he has not the means. It is true I could ap ply to my Diocesan ; for even if the parish were seques tered, I would he unable to collect the tithe ; but why should I be so devoid of feeling as to worry and harrass an unfortunate gentleman, situated as he is, having a family consisting of a wife and s4ven children to support, for whom he can with difficulty procure food and raiment, although at this moment upwards of 1,400/. are due by his p 1- rishioners. In the mean time, I would respectfully in quire, what am I to do? In another month two years' sale, v will be due, and in less than another month, I shall be obliged to make up the sum of 1001. Small as my salary (70/. per annum) is, still to a man having a family and small establishment to support, as well as to try to support an appearance with these in my own rank, it must be very distressing to want that trifle such a length of time." Gentlemen, after this, any talk of the clergy holding large livings, and the receipt of one year compen sating for the loss in another, would he absurd; but sup posing that the clergyman is a conscientious man, and thinks it his duty not to hoard up his income, but to spend among his parishioners that which he receives from his parishioners, am Ito be told that that is an argument for abandoning him,. and refusing to do anything to alleviate his unmerited distress.—(Hear, hear, heat. ) Now, Sir, h wing thus stated what the distress among the clergy of Ireland is—what the system of opposition to the tithe is, and what is the general re sult of the whole facts of the case, I will take the liberty of reading to the Committee the first resolution which I have to propose. It is to this effect :—" That it appears to this Committee, that in several parts of Ireland an or ganized and systematic opposition has been made to the payment of tithes, by which the law has been rendered un availing; and many of the clergymen of the Established Church have been reduced to great pecuniary distress."— This resolution, in conjunction with the others which I shall presently read, forms a series which I hope vt ill be adopted by this Committee, by which means I shall be enabled, on the part of the Government, to introduce a measure founded upon them. In the first place, I conceive I may assume that there is no one in this House who will say that such a body of men as the Protestant clergy of Ireland are not entitled to any assistance that Parliament can afford them. Those who have most objection to the course proposed by the present Government, do not pre tend to say that the clergy should not be relieved. Then, if so, next comes the question—how are we to relieve them, and on what principle ought we to proceed ? Let me ask, are you prepared to say that, because there has been a systematic opposition made to the payment of these legal dues—because the clergy are deprived of their income in certain districts in Ireland—the Parliament and the country ought to step forward and make good their loss—and, there stopping, refuse to take any ulterior steps to prevent the recurrence of such circumstances in future ? Surely no one will argue thus ; or, if they do, then I say that this would not only be an injustice to the clergy, but be a premium given to disaffection—(cheers)—a bribe held out to the violation of the law—(cheers)—a temptation afforded to riot and turbulence.—(Hear, and cheers.) And is this an encouragement which ought to be held forth ? Is it the ph asure of this House to say, that because Leinster has been disturbed, tranquil Ulster, tranquil Munster, and tranquil Connaught, tranquil Eng land and tranquil Scotland, are to pay for the resistance of one unruly portion of the empire?—(Hear, hear.) Be cause Leinster has revolted—yes, revolted, for I cannot use a milder term—against the law, are we for this to re lieve the sufferers out of the pockets of the public, by which we shall actually be putting that very amount in the pockets of those whose misconduct has created the whole of this mischief ? Are we, in short, to say that' for peaceful men there shall be no remedy, and that for the turbulent there shall he instant protection ? Sir, I for one am not prepared, and I do not think that the people of England, or of tranquil Ireland, are prepared to act upon such a mistaken principle; and yet surely we are neverthe less bound to see that the clergy do not suffer for that which is no fault of theirs.—( Hear, hear.) I know it has been asked what we would do if an opposition, similar to this tithe-payment-opposition, were to spring up against the payment of landlords' rents. I am willing to meet that question. Let us suppose that a whole district was up in arms against the payment of rent—then I say, in the ab stract, it would be the duty of the Legislature to step for ward, and indemnify the landed proprietor, as well as en force the wholesome action of the law. But, on the other hand, if from the demand of exorbitant rents, and from general oppressive conduct on the part of the landlords, the tenants were driven into outrage, then I should feel that the landlords would come with no case before Parliament —(Cheers)—and if they did so come, they would deserve to be spurned, and scouted from the doors of this Hause. —(Cheers.) But is this de cription applicable to the case of the clergy in Ireland ? Have the clergy so acted ? Is it the clergy tchn have fixed the amount of their "receipts? - Is it the clergy who have imposed on the tenantry an exorbitant payment ?—(Hear, hear.) Have they ever been charged with demanding more than their right?—(Hear, hear, hear.) I know not whether I am to interpret that cheer into an intimation that the clergy have made themselves liable to that charge; but this I know, that my Hon. Friend, the Member for Ar magh, in moving his resolutions on a former night, dis tinctly stated that they had not ; and certainly the evi ' deuce before the Committee shows that the clergy have never been, as a body, extortionate in their demand ; and I believe, that if we were to examine this point to the ut most, the conclusion to which we must come would be, that of all the burthens on the occupiers of the soil, that imposed for the subsistence of the clergy was by far the least onerous. This will be the more distinctly seen if we compare the Irish tithe with that paid in England. In England the tithe amounts to tine-fifth of the rent, and the rent may be fairly computed at one-fifth of the produce; but in Ireland, from all the evidence adduced, and, indeed, from figures that are incontrovertible, it can be shown that the tithes of the clergy scarcely ever amount to one fifteenth of the rent, and, on an average, are much nearer to one-twentieth of the rent. With these facts before us, I ask with what face Gentlemen can charge the clergy, in the teeth of the evidence, and in the teeth of the truth, with being extortionate in their demand, or can compare them with an oppressive landlord who demands an unjust proportion of the produce of the soil ? But the fact is, that the question of the payment of tithes does not rest in the amount of the claim : it is a very different feeling that has given rise to the strong and systematic opposition that for the last eighteen months has been gradually in creasing in Ireland, till it has at length risen to its present extraordinary height. Gentlemen had never known a more abundant harvest than the last year (the Right Hon. Gentleman continued), and yet both Roman Catholic and Protestant landlords found it difficult, in many cases, to eke out existence with the mi sera bl e p i ttance they secured. No tithes were paid ; but when such was the defici ency of the tenants, what became of the burden under which they laboured for tithe of two shillings per acre ? lie only proposed -- in doing away with the Immediate claims of the clergy, that those remedies which now belonged to the clergy, though the clergy declined taking , them, to render the law operative—lie only pro • posed that the Parliament should give into the hands of the Government, by an Act to be p ,ssed for that purpose, the same power and the same remedies as were now pos sessed by the clergy, whether they applied to the person or property of the tithe-payer. Further, he must state, that in those cases where it is declared by the clergy th a t they bad entered into an agreement with their parishion. era, though these agreements were to take less than one half of their due, the law, leaving the other half as a mar gin for its discretion, would only enforce those agreements, but must enforce so much, if the authority Of the law was not to be rejected altogether—admitting, indeed, that it was impossible to gain much more from the tenants. But this measure, which went only to enforce the law so far as he had describ, d it, is what had been stigmatised as cramming tithes down the throats of the people at the point of the bayonet. lie was not ready to ask for ex traordinary powers ; in fact, they had been already de clared, and he belonged to a Government which was not willing to ask for them ; but he also belonged to a Go vernment which did not fear the consequences of enforcing upon a population the payment of those debts which were justly due ; or, if they refused the payment of their just debts, it was the duty of the Government to enforce the penalty.—(Hear.) He did not know what might he the opinion of the House ; he did not know what might be thought of a Government which should neglect or refuse to enforce the law as established ; but certainly it would he much to be lamented, if there were any delay or any hesitation in enforcing the law ; and of such a Govern ment certainly he would not be a Member; and such a Government, for the sake of pe ice and tranquillity, God forbid he would say, it should ever exist, or that he should ever occupy a place in such a Government in any empire. The details of the measure might be discussed at a future stage, if the Committee would allow hint to bring in the Bill. He should then only think it necessary to say, that the Government thought it most expedient to se cure a revenue to the clergy ; and the next resolution he should have to propose would have that for its object, dis tributing it among the clergy in proportion to the amount they had lost. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the two next resolutions, as follows That, in order to afford relief to this distress, it is expedient that his Majesty should be empoivered, upon application to the Lord Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ire land, to direct that there be issued from the Consolidated Fund such sums as may be required for this purpose. " That the sums so issued shall be distributed by the Lord Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, by and with the advice of the Privy Council, in advances propor tioned to the incomes of the incumbents of benefices, wherein the tithes or tithe composition lawfully due may have been with held, according to a scale diminishing as the incomes of such in cumbents increase. _ . " That for the more effectual vindication of the authority of the law, and as a security for the repayment of the sums so to be advanced, hi Majesty be empowered to levy, under the authority of an Act to be passed for the purpose, the amount of arrears for the tithes or tithe composition of the whole or any part of the year 1831, without prejudice to the claim - is of the Clergy for any arrear which may be due for a longer period; reserving, in the first instance, the amount of such advances, and paying over the remaining balance to the legal ciaimants, " That it is the opinion of this House, that with a view to se cure both the interests of the Church and the lasting welfare of Ireland, a permanent change of system will be required; and that such a change, to be satisfactory and secure, must involve a com plete extinction of tithes,including those belonging to lay impro priators, by commuting them for a charge upon land, or an ex change for or investment in land." He had now gone through the propositions which the Government thought it necessary to submit for the secu rity of the clergy. But he believed that the statement would not be sufficient, and he would not shrink from saying, that great dissatisfaction might be expected from these resolutions, if they were not accompanied by some declaration on the part of the House that it was necessary to provide an extensive alteration in the existing tithe system—(hear.) To answer the expectations excited in Ireland by the appointment of the committee, which had at least had the effect of making the people defer to Parlia ment, and had put an end to disturbance—postponing at least the day of collision, if collision must come—.hose ex pectations excited by the appointment of the committee would be greatly and justly disappointed should no relief be afforded ; and therefore it was necessary to take the ear liest opportunity, if they could not enter into details in tie present stage, of least to pledge themselves to a change in the tithe system. Although he might not be prepared to say what species of change was necessary, the clergy them selves, sod the best friends of the clergy, said that some great change in the system was necessary. He felt, in an nouncing that, that the experience of many years justified him in saying, that on this point Parliament must give way—(hear, hear.) In fact, if they looked back at this question, no man could say that any year had passed in which it had not been the fruitful cause of many disturb ances.and much bloodshed in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.,) — From year to year, and from century to century, history teemed with outrages resulting from the tithe system.—(Hear.) Hardly a year had passed in which the law had not been resisted, and in which the people had not demanded some redress of this grievance.— (Hear.) He wished it not to be understood, because it was a grievance, that the Government was to allow the people to adjust it of themselves. He admitted the grievance, though, compared to what was legally due, the actual tithe might be said to be a grievance, but he only followed the information laid before the Committee, in saying that it was felt as a grievance by the people of Ire land. It was not, however, as he said, on account of the 2s. or Is. 3d. per acre which the people paid that it was a grievance, and without discussing the question as to who ultimately paid the tithe, he would say that it was a sum levied on the public, and paid directly by them, as an extra charge beyond that sum they had agresd to pay for rent, and it was paid to persons who, according to an ex pression of a witness, the Committee gave nothing in re turn for it.—(Hear, hear.) It was not the amount of the sum, and he did not doubt, in the present competition for land, when tenants would promise more than they could ever expect to receive—that if the tithes were to be wholly abolished, he did not doubt that in many cases it would on'y go to swell the amount of rent, and that the tenants would not be benefitted.—(Hear, hear.) Nevertheless tithes were a grievance. He put it prominently forward as a chief part of this grievance, that the tenant had to pay immedi ately to thu Minister of a religion in which he did not be lieve—that he did not follow—and who gave men no ser vices in return for the payment. He would not say that they ought not to pay, nor would he say that the payment ought not to be enforced—but he would say, that the di rect and immediate payment—the transfer of property from the peasant to the ministers of a religion in which he himself did not believe—the payment by the Catholic peasantry to the Protestant Clergy, was one, and the chief, source of the grievance._(Hear, hear.) It was of no consequence whether the sum were 3d. or Is. on religious grounds, the objections must be equally strong to the p iy ment of Is. or of 3d., and whatever remedies they might propose, unless they remedied the whole grievance, the objection to the payment, on religious grounds, would re main. That grievance was independent of the sum paid, and it was also, in fact, that the smallness of the sum en hanced the difficulties. He did not deny, that if the charge wee ss. or 10s. an acre, that it would not be felt as a greater evil than if it were only Is. ; but the greater sum would immediately demand consideration, while the amount of 4d. per acre was so small a sum, that a great number of people had to pay it, and it was including such a number which made it be felt as a grievance. He said that the de mands of the clergy were not exorbitant, but it was the number of small sums clairneifromsmallhOldinga a to. swell the revenue of the clergy to its proper amount, that the people felt as a grievance, which was the perpetual blister, the constant annoyance of all those who had to pay.— (Hear.) There were many witnesses to the fact among the clergy themselves. It appeared from a paper hid be. fore the House, giving an account of the effects of the last Tithe Composition Act, that of 52 parishes, the average number of tithe-payers was very considerable. According to that return, 12,824 contributed to pay the tithe, amount ing to 11,300/. ; or, in round numbers, nearly 13,000 persons paid 11,0001. The sum was not all paid at once, or to the same persons. It was paid to the rector--to the vicar—it was paid to other persons; and it was paid in half-yearly payments ; so that, according to the ac count, there were seven or eight payments made by each individual tenant before he completed that small sum he had to pay. The payments were made twice a year; and it had happened that the payment of a single individual for which process had issued, for which expenses had been in curred, and on which fees had been charged—it had hap pened, that in one case the payment required of an indi vidual was only three farthings in one half year. It was not so in England; and it arose in Ireland from that mi serable system of sub-letting and dividing land which the landlords of Ireland had encouraged, and which existed in no other country.—(Hear, hear.) In many parishes indeed, if it were not for the potatoe-garden s , the clergy would not receive any tithes. Before, therefore, it was objected to the clergy that they levied such small sums, it cught to be recollected that it was the land lords who were responsible for this state of things, and that the clergy found the greatest difficulty in obtain ing what they had to receive. Independently, then, of the religious ground on which tithes were objected to, it was a marked feature of the character of their payment, and a great grievance that it was made in small sums by a great many persons directly to the clergy. The clergy of the Established Church were anxious and desirous indeed to have this system altered. They f e l t t h at i t b roug ht them into angry collision with the great mass of the pets. ple, and prevented them living in that harmony which, independent of anything else, a Christi an m i n i ster, to b e useful, ought to maintain with his flock. To remove that collision was necessary, not only to excre the re spict of the people for the clergy of the Established ' Church, but even to ens Ute the future tranquillity of Ire land. It was essential to the discharge of their duties as a Christian clergy that this system should be altered ; and it was not less essential in order to secure their residence, as, perhaps, the best species of the country gentlemen who vould spend their property on the land. If, then, it were only for the clergy themselves, and for their usefulness, the system ought to be altered ; and when to that were added the benefit and tranquillity of the people, the neces shy of that alterotion bee tme apparent. The alteration would, he believed, do much to preserve tranquillity, to give to Ireland an excellent species of resident landlords— (Hear,) and to supply the people themselves with the most useful friends. It was for the consideration of the Committee to recommend the best means of providing for the clergy ; but as far as the matter had vet been looked at, it appeared, that to maintain the clergy of the Established Church, estates should be granted to the clergy of the Established Church. He was aware of some objections to that plan, hut he was not sure that a rent charge reserved to the clergy, or a portion of the land, was not the best way to provide for the clergy and make them useful. If it were said that their income would increase by the cultivation of other men, that was true of all the owners of land, but it fell on no individual, and was not a grievance. But the subject must be looked at with a view to the disposition of the people of Ireland ; and looking at that, lie must say that they must try the experiment of a change in the whole system, in order to provide for the ministers of the Established Church. In whatever way that might be proposed to be done, it must ultimately fall as a charge on the land. They might vainly flatter themselves, that by their regulations they could effect that by some other means ; but, do what they would, whatever propositions they might make, bowever the Legislature might settle the qmstion, the proposition in which the sum would he paid must be and could ht settled between the landlord and tenants. He would not, howev.r, call on the House, thtin to enter upon a disputed proposition ; he only wished to call its attention to the effects of the present system. It must he, it was allowed, that the system operated as a great practical grievance. He had pointed out some of those evils in one branch of the subject, and that part called for a general remedy. Without entering into details, he would sty that the resolutions would, in the first place, provide that the rights of the Established Church should be protected, while the future welfare of the country was attended to. There was, however, one point, and an important point, which he had overlooked, and which he would advert to. Undoubtedly, tithes had the effect and the character of a tax. Tie system of titles was essentially a system of taxation, which fell on the cultivator of the land, and it fell, not like rent, in pro portion to the inherent properties of hind, but in propor tion to the industry, the skill, and the capital of the tenant, One most important feature of the tithe system, and one of its chief grievanc , s was, that it checked the cultivation of the soil more than any equal amount of charge levied on a different principle. That feature of it supported his argument. It was in vain to say, that if the clergy were paid by land, their income would increase as the rent of land increased. It was trite, that as the value of land around them rose, their income from land would increase in proportion ; but it would not be felt as a tax on the industry and ingenuity of individuals. Some objections had been already made to the course of proceed ings adopted, and it had been asked, why propose the re solutions, which he meant to submit to Parliament, till the whole subject could be brought under its attention ? To that he would reply in the language of the report:— " Your Committee, in the meantime, will devote their unremitting attention to the prosecution of the im portant inquiries intrusted to them by the House ; but they earnestly entreat the House to bear in mind, that the satisfactory operation and permanent maintenance of any plan that can be adopted must depend upon mature previous consideration of its practical details. An arrange ment is to be made, not merely of a prospective not(' re and attaching to new and unsettled relations between the parties concerned, but an arrangement by which existing and frequently conflicting interests are to be affected, and which is to be general in its operation throughout a country wherein the tenure of land is peculiarly compli cated anti various in its character." If, before he pro posed to bring the measure before the House, he had not called upon the House to give a distinct pledge to make an alteration in the present system, and if he called for any support for the Government previously to relieving the distress of the clergy, and before the Government had vindicated the authority of the law, and before that Go vernment had enforced the law against that combination which he allowed to be most extensive, he should have theught himself not justified, it being impossible that the question of relief could be considered in detail and a remedy applied until the authority of the law was vindicated. He called upon the House to apply that remedy ; but he sub mitted, at the same time, that it should first vindicate the authority of the law.—(Hear, hear.) He called upon it to teach Ireland a lesson—(Hear)—and show her that she might tvith s ifety look to England with a reliance on her justice, without attempting only to influence her by vio lence and turbulence, and act upon her fears.—(Hear.) The CHAIRMAN then read the resolutions, as Mr. St inky had read them in his speech. Mr. JENISON protested. against the compulsory part of the plan. If the tithe were to be converted into a land rent, it would convert all the gentlemen of Ireland into Whiteboys. He was sure that the Right Hon. Gentle man was not aware of the dissatisfaction which existed. It WgiB nesessary to revise the whole Church Establishment of Ireland, to inquire into its revenues, and to go into the whole question, before the people of Ireland would he satis tisd. He admitted that the tithes, as levied in Ireland, wrie not great, and asserted that there existed the grossest exaggeration in ascribing all the evils of Ireland to the tithes. He did not deny that tithes were felt as a griev ance, but the grievance was that they were paid by a Roman Catholic people to a Protestant clergy. The Hon. Member con*luded by protesting against the third reso lution. Mr. flcatE and Mr. BROWNLOW rose together, but the former gave way, and Mr. BROWNLOW approved highly of the first resolu tion, which described the situation of the clergy without one word of exaggeration. He admitted, too, a. was stated by the Right Hon. Secretary, that the clergy had been brought into this state by no fault of their own.— Whoever read the evidence must see that no men had ever conducted themselves with greater temper, moderation, or disinterestedness, than the clergy of the Established Church. The Hon. Member referred to the cases of Mr. Muir and Mr. Falkener, as cases of peculiar hardship, as stated by the Right Hon. Secretary. He came then to the question, were the clergy the owners of tithes? Who were the owners of them ? If they belonged to the clergy and no other persons, they ought to he protected by the law, otherwise the law was of no use to them. The Legislature was bound to protect them in the peaceful and secure enjoyment of their property. How could they be expected to obey the law, unless the law gave them pro tection ? " Behold the plaintiff in the pulpit and the de fendant in the congregation," was the eloquent and accu rate description given by Grattan of the situation of the clergy in 1766 or 1787. He thought that description painted in strong colours the true situation of the Pro testant clergy. Behold the clergy now heading the King's troops or the constitutional police to levy their tithes, and their opponents the whole population of the country. If that were the true state of the Clergy, was it not time to provide some remedy ? If it was just and right, as the Government proposed, that the amount of tithes now due should be paid colt of the Con solidated Fund, it was in his opinion equally just and right that the sum thus advanced should not be paid at the ex tphe seo peaceable the o a r u d i i , j n e a e r t y . a o x x t ep Crown, nor b u f t r frosts that h c w k u e l t d s b o e f on all occasions exacted from the parochial defaulters.— (Hear.) This was the view he took of the question; and in connection with it, he would take leave to ask the Right Hon. Secretary one question. In this attempt to justicet hy on rec t bi e ve a r t i a n t g e o t f he th s e legally rm u f t a n er dueo lor peasant who would be called on to pay — and was he pre- render t pre pared to protect them front the consequences of the system them, had to he the calculated clerg y of intimidation which had been so long prevalent in Ire ' land?—(Elear.) He knew—although for obvious reasons he would not mention names or places—that many of the peasantry were, althongh hostile to the system, still will ing to pay their tithes, but that they did so under fear; and that when they came to comply with the demands on them, they entreated the receiver not to say he had been paid, anti begged him, in mercy, to keep secret the names the of those who had come in. — (Hear.) He now begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if he had provided protec ,tiiuotnyfoorf thethese persons, Governmentor t i o f h b e e, vi t • o a s put prepared, dow n as it system wasthe of f intimidation which would probably be renewed on the attempt to collect the arrears of the tithes?—(Hear). He approved of the substance of the three first Resolu tions, but he disliked the fourth, or the coercive portion of the plan, and his reason for it was, that it was not ac companied by anything which would satisfy the great body of the people, or to mitigate that ground of discontent which had overspread the country.—(Hear.) The plan was imperfect to this extent, that it introduced no sub -tantial change in the system which had created all the ditsuibance, anti which the people of Ireland had united to condemn. The Right lion. Gentleman's resolutions might, it was true, be satisfactory to those who contemplated the continuance of the present state of the Established Church of It cland—(Hear)—hut he would only say at once tha) the system could not last—that it was founded in a great mistake--that it was bottomed in delusion—that it was a gross anomaly.--(Hear.) Mr. HUME reminded those who were now so anxious to adopt some measures to redress the grievances of Ireland that when he proposed to them to be wise in time and to avert by concession the evils which he saw awaited them, he was greeted from all sides with the cry of spoil itor and plunderer. What the Government were about to do now was precisely what he recommended then; and although he could not lint approve of a portion of their plan, he must say he could not see why they did not go along with him still further, and remodel the whole establishment of the Church of Ireland—for until that was done he was confident the people never could he satisfied.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had told them that it was the intention of the Government to hold out the hand of con ciliation to the people of Ireland ; but how did he propose to commence his system of conciliation? 'Why by calling on the House for extraordinary powers to suspend the laws in order that the people may be compelled to pay up the cures already due to the Church. They had :30,000 men, they were told, in Ireland at that moment, and if they were found insufficient hitherto to collect even a tithe of the tithe, how, lie would ask, did they hope to collect it hereafter, or what force did they suppose would be ne cessary for that purpose? How did they imagine they could overcome the resolves of an united people—of a people determined to resist to the last?—(Hear, hear.) He could read to them, if it was necessary, speech upon speech, delivered at the commencement of the contests which led to the American war, iu which one Memner of the House after another said that all they wanted was more force and efficient laws; and yet what, after all, did the whole power of England do against an united people.— (Hear, hear, hear.) In just the same way would the Irish resist, if driven to extremities. He was rejoiced th it the Government had determined to make sacrifices to con ciliate their feelings ; and although an Hon. Member ex pressed doubts respecting the willingness of the people of England to consent to give money out of the Consolidated Fund for such a purpose, he thought the Hon. Member was mistaken. He (Mr. Hume) was, for one, quite wil ling to give the money. He gave it in confidence to the Government ; not because they were about to put the law in force with additional severity, but because tithes were at last to he abolished, and a system of compensation in troduced in their stead.—(Hear, hear.) He was confi dent the people of England would not object to the ar rangement. The question was not an Irish so much as it was an English question; because it would enable England to conduct the Government of Ireland for the future without an immense expenditure, and that unfortunate spirit which had hitherto marked their connection. Let the Government try to bring the Irish within the pale of the Constitution by acts of kindness and conciliation. They asked but for justice. Let the Government give them that justice ; but let them not, at the same time, profess to bestow a boon on the Irish, while they insisted on the rigid administration of laws which left them no better than formerly. By the resolutions before the House the Government professed to conciliate the people ; but at the same time they, in the last resolution, intimated that they would first try again what coercion was likely to do, and how far they could succeed with fire and the sword ; and he was confident, if the House adopted their recommendation, they would he placed in a situation with regard to Ireland which few of them would like to contemplate. He thought it would be both wisdom and prudence, on the part of the Govern ment, to declare their intention to go into a review of the whole Church Establishment of Ireland. He knew they had business enough on their hands; but if they were mice to announce their attention, they might take their time with it ; and if they were to allow the Committee now sitting to take all the evidence they could collect, and make a report on it, he was certain that evidence would satisfy every impartial._ man in this country that all at tempts at coercion would utterly fail for the collection of tithes.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the Ministers meant as well as any men could do; but they were proceeding under bad advice, and they would fail. For his part, he regretted being compelled to differ from them ; but he could not give his consent to the fourth resolution, and he would vote against it.—( Hear.) Mr. HUGH O'CONNOR agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Government that the clergy should, as parties to a compact, be relieved ; but he thought at the same time that the Government were bound to take means to prevent the recurrence of the disputes which rendered such an arrangement necessary. As to the recovery of the arrears of the tithes, he considered it, however, next to impossible. He thought that the Government were bound to make the House acquainted with the nature of the remedies they proposed as a compensation for the extraordinary powers they demanded' for the enforcement of the existing law, because he fully agreed with the Mem ber for Middlesex, that if measures could be adopted to satisfy the people, all coercion would be unnecessary. He differed from those who asserted that tithe was a tax on the land. He thought,on the contrary, that it was is tax on land, capital and labour united. There were thirteen millions of acres in Ireland. Of these one million belonged to the Church ; and he was satisfied that, if fairly cistrihuted and properly applied, they wouls be found fully adequate to the support of the Protestant Establishment. He did not measure religion by its temporalities, and he was con fident that the most effectual way to alienate the Catholics from their parties would be to con'er on them advantages such as those possessed at this moment by the Protestants. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, after some observa tions on the effect which the abolition of tithes would have on the property of landlords, concluded by expressing his determination to vote for the three first resolutions, and against the fourth. Mr. W. PEEL said, there was no organized system of opposition to the tithes in Ireland before the present Go vernment. Parliament had no more right to seize on the property of the Church than they would have to seize on the property of tire Right Hon. Gentleman. The King had tagen an oath to support the Protestant Est iblish ment, and God forbid that he should have a Minister who would advise him to violate it.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CAREW admitted that the clergy of Ireland ought to lie relieved, but did not think that the relief ought to come out of the pockets of the people of England. Colonel CONOLLY thought that the state of Ireland at the present moment was more awful than it had been at any period during the last thirty years; and expressed his hope that his Majesty's Government would enforce the power which they had in their hands to vindicate the laws of the land. He recommended that the landlords of Ireland should be empowered to levy for tithes as they were now empowered to levy far rents ; giving them a rate not larger than that which the Protestant clergy now received for compensation. Mr. M. O'FERRALL heartily concurred in the resolu tion fur making a grant to the Protestant clergy to relieve their distress. But with respect to the general law of tithes, what be wished was to see it amended, and then if the people disobeyed the law it might be properly enforc, d against them. His objection to the tithe was not so much to the manner in which it was levied, as to the manner in which it was appropriated. He confessed, however, that he had never paid tithe in Ireland without a feeling of de gradation—without considering it as a tribute paid by the conquered to the conquerors. If Louis the Fourteenth had invaded and conquered England, and had established the Catholic as the religion of the State, would the Protestant inhabitants of the country have paid tithes to the Catholic clergy except - on compulsion? It was of a similar com pulsion;towards the Catholics of Ireland that he complained ; and he protested against the Committee's being hurried on, without hearing any evidence upon the subject, to the adoption of measures of a severe and compulsory nature. Sir RICHARD RIUSGRAVE did not object to ad vancing money to the Protestant clergy, who were at pre sent suffering so much distress. But they were told that the money was to be repaid; and that coercive measures would, if necessary, be resorted to for that purpose. To such a proposition he most decidedly objectel The question at issue embraced the people on the one side, and the Protestant clergy on the other. But before having heard half the evidence on the subject, the Committee h td determined to remunerate the clergy, and to prosecute the people. The Hon. Baronet here read several extrac's from the evidence to show the evils and hardships to which the people had been subjected, in consequence of the demands of the clergy. To coerce the people for the object in view would require not only a large army, but an enormous army ; and it was highly probable that even an enormous army would fail in acc mplishing the purpose. Mr. D. BROWNE was convinced that before many years there must be a readjustment of Church property in Ireland, and then it would be given to the three promi nent sects of Christians, and not, as now, exclusively be stowed upon one, which was not professedly inure than an ei 2 hth of the people. He would wish to go farther than Government; but he did not think this was the time, and, indeed, he was sorry that anything had been said about tithes that session, as it could not fiil in some degree to interfere with the progress of the Reform Bill; but the oppositi-n to the law, and the combination against it in Ireland, rendered it imperative on the Right Hon. Gentle man to introduce some measure upon the subject fiirthwith. Captain JONES, in explanation, stated that it was true, as the Hon. Baronet observed, that the Roman C,L- tholic clergymen were not charged by the parson with tithes ; nor was the priest of the parish of Craig (if we heard him rightly) for the land which he held in his cle rical capacity ; iiut the fact was, this priest took a farm of forty acres on lease, and the Tithe Composition Act b •ing in force in the parish, the landlord stipulated that the tenant should pay the tithe; but he, however, ten drred the receipt of the parson for tithes in part payment of rent, whtch was refused by the landlord, and the priest being obstinate, the matter was ultimately referred to ar bitration, when Dr. Doyle, as one of the arbitrators, de cided against the priest, and in favour of the landlord. Mr. CRAMPTON inceiglod against the tone and tem pi r of the speeches made by certain Hon. Members for Ireland, and observed that the Hon. Member for Kildare had made himself not the advocate of the people, but the apologist for the agitators and combinators and violators of the law. The fact was, Government should either put an end to combination, or the combination would put an end to Government.—(Hear.) The opposition which was now directed only against tithes would soon extend to rent, and from the seven counties in which it now prevailed, spread throughout the four provinces. In proof of this psition, he read extracts from letters published in the appendix of the report of the Tithe Committee, and from a threatening notice (signed " Lady Clare," and now circulated in the Queen's County), wherein land lords were, on pain of death, called upon to reduce their ren's. He declared that if the Government did not at once interfere, insurrection, anarchy, abandonment of the law, and the tyranny of agitators and mobs, would inevi tably come to pass. But the measure of the Government, he contended, would restore tranquillity in the country, afford relief to the clergy, and, combined with the healing measures in contemplation, produce universal satisfaction. Tee measure then under the consideration of the House, had been most untruly represented as a measure of coercion. It was no such triing ; it was a measure of mercy and of leniency—it would give relief to the clergy, and justice to the tithe-payer. O'CONNOR DON—Appreciating the difficulties with which Government are encompassed, and fully impressed with the conviction of the sincerity of their intentions, and their wishes to promote the general good of the (ternary, I own that it is with great reluctance that I feel obliged to dissent from any part of any of the measures which are proposed in the resolutions that have been sub mitted for the consideration of this House. The first of these resolutions is merely declaratory —the others recom mend the advancement of a sum to meet the exigencies of the present incumbents, from whom tithes have been withheld—the recovery of the arrears of tithes by extraor dinary measures of coercion—the abolition of tithes in future, and the substituting for them either a land tax or a portion of the land itself. In the first proposition I sincerely concur. I think that with the present incum bents the country has contracted a solemn covenant which it would be cruelty and injustice to violate. With respect, however, to the collection of the arrears of tithes by measures of extraordinary coercion, I question its pos. ; for, in every free State, there is a moral force which is paramount to every physical power that can be brought against it—l mean the force of public opinion ; that force which, in many cases, supersedes the necessity of all law ; and, in other cases, is the best sanction that imparts to lite its stability and efficacy—that force of public opinion has Most undoubtedly set in against the tithe system ; and I do think that any recourse to extra ordinary measures of coercion will only precipitate the ruinous downfall of that Establishment, which might have been remodelled and secured by an earlier adoption of mea sures to lighten its pressure on the community. But the recovery of the arrears of tithes has been always one of the features in the system that has excited peculiar aversion, and been the source of the most unjust exactions. And upon whose testimony are those arrears to be recovered ? Upon the oaths of the tithe proctors, the most heartless, the most unprincipled set of men in existence. I speak of them from experience as a Magistrate ; I have known the most exorbitant demands to be made and sworn to as just and equitable, arid at the lowest valuation ; and yet upon inquiry they were found to be most unjust exactions ; but without dwelling on these in stances, I shall mention a circumstance that lately oc curred in the county which I have the honour to repreeent. Two of the most upright intelligent Magistrates were im peached on the oath of a tithe.proctor for neglect of duty. The Lord-Lieutenant deputed two of his Deputy-Lieute- Ilail!S to inquire into their conduct, and these Magistrates had to descend from the bench, where they administered justice with credit to themselves and to their country, and to appear as criminals at the bar before Deputy Lieute nants who differed from them in politics, but who, being men of honour, pronounced the charge to be false, frivo lous, and vexatious. But, Sir, it is asserted that it is necessary to vindicate the majesty of the law. Without at all meaning to detract from that reverence to which the law is entitled, may it not be questioned if the law does not divest itself of half its majesty front the moment that it forfeits that high attribute that best entitled it to respect tie attribute of justice? From that moment it may still, it is true, retain power, but may it not too closely re semble the power of despotism ? and certainly there arises this worst of all possible consequences from its conti nuance, that the hatred it engenders, and the hostility it awakens are extended to the most just, the most equitable authority. The remedies for the grievances of the tithe sys ern should have been earlier applied ; delay has been dangerous ; the evils were known to exist, and yet they were not redressed until the people extorted from the country and this House the confession of their exist ence. The Right Honouratile the Secretary for Ireland, when he first brought this question before the House, de. tailed sonic of these grievances, and this House acquiesced in the truth of his statements; but it should not be lsrgotten, that but for the reclamations of the people the injustice wile which they were treated would have re mained unnoticed. I wish not to palliate the excesses hick they occasionally committed. I deplore their corn m'ssion deeply, sincerely, unaffectedly ; but let those who condemn them remember the grounds of dissatisfaction so long allowed to remain unredressed ; and let them not be disposed to undervalue just complaints because they were attempted to be redressed, unhappily, through the infrac tion of the law. If their endurance has been long, it may Se wise to make some remission of arrears that may he difficult to prove, and still more difficult to collect. At all events, before this House accedes to invest the Govern ment with additional power, the Government should dis tinctly state what that measure of relief is which is to compensate for extraordinary coercion. If the measure Le satisfactory, coercion will be unnecessary ; if unsatisfac tory, coercion will be useless. That relief from the present system should be granted is universally conceded. Should the balance of the former evil lie rigorously ex acted, because it is so written in a bond that ought long since to have been cancelled ? The physical power of the executive there is no necessity to prove ; convince the people that the measure in contemplation will effec tually relieve them, and they will, I trust, cease to offer even passive resistance to the collection of much of these arrears. What that measure should be is, that I lam aware, not presume a question to be equal of such complicated to its lu d so fiifc tin u o lty : but when arguments have been advanced in which I cannot agree, I may be allowed to express my dissent from them. I must premise that I concur with those who are of opinion that the landlord should not derive any ad vantage from the abolition of tithes, but I cannot conceive that tithes are on the land alone, and that, therefore, the land alone should be responsible for their whole amount. I think I could adduce a case in which the tithe was not on the land in the least ; I knew an experiment to be made on a bog 36 feet deep, so wet that it was necessary to place boards under the feet of the men who were tilling ir, and yet with considerable labour, and an immensity of manure, that bog that very year produced the finest crop of potatoes I ever saw. Now, if the tithe of these pota toes were exacted, would it not be entirely the tithe of the labour an I capital, and not of the land, which was worth nothing—which was absolutely nothing but the lo cde on which to expend labour and capital _and which ceases to be worth anything from the moment the crop was extracted from it? And, therefore, is it not fair to in fer that tithe is a compound, not a simple charge, and that industry and capital are some of its ingredients? A land lord may lease ten acres of ground to each of two tenants : one is idle and poor—die other industrious and rich ; the one pays no tithe—the other pays tithe to a considerable amount. In shirt, I think there are numerous instances which would prove that tithe is not on the land alone; and that, therefore, the landlord alone should be respon sible for the full amount. I know that in refutation of this, my opinion, it is asserted that the landlord receives even a higher rent for land that is tithe free than the amount of tithe added to the usual rent. This does not bring con viction to my mind; he wee receives a higher rent because such land is used for the evasion of tithe. A man will till that ground alone ; he will have on that ground all his titbeable articles, and thus free the rest of his grounds from their produce. But it does not follow that if all lands were tithe free they would rise in the same .proportion. Again, it is said that the abolition of tithes would benefit the land lord alone ; would it out benefit the occupying tenant-- would not new leases be modelled by the surviving leases of the adjoining grounds? Is it not a well known fact, that the more a landlord is distressed the more he will distress his tenantry; and if it be true that the tenant will not be in the least benefi=ted by the abolition of tithes bee cause the whole amount would go into the pockets of bit landlord, it must follow that he cannot he benefitted.by the wh le amount being taken out of the pocket of his • land lot d, e xcept is so . Ist as tine landlord might be a more tar: