The Sun. — London, England, 1832-02-18 00:00:00

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'VI 'r ' s•-• , ; , -. 4 0' 1 , - " c, - '‘, - 4 . . _ „,-..,. \'' , 7....„ : - j ) , ~, i , 4 0,.--(,) . • -- - 1,,-.4 , ---- '\ .....- ~...,_=l, - ,..,:.--„, —.., .; •TA_,---c t l; .„..;„;-• ..4., - \--)_ , Ni 4 , c.. s2,,ri4 o , :Awi. . —.„..it 4 i;.,,,' . , ~ _...,... , r, ` ;413 7 ''' '''' ' .V, 141 • 1 1e 447 0 01, 4313tia i t . ° 1 - 11,:iii:!` 4. • • PRICE 7D. LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 183'2. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 17. Lord KENYON moved that the amendments made in the Committee on the Agricultural Labourers' Bill be printed.—Ordered. Lord FOLEY presented a petition from Hereford against the importation of foreign gloves. After the order of the day for the second reading of the Cholera Prevention The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose, and moved that the Bill be read a second time. In doing so, the Noble Marquis said that it had been the inten tion of his Majesty's Government to prevent the spreading of alarm upon this subject,which was the reason this Bill was not before introduced. The Bill was then lead a second time. The Noble Marquis then moved the susp ez _ sion of the Standing Orders so far as regarded this Bill. The House then went into Committee, when The Bishop of LONDON had to move, as an amends ment, that the words, "Whereas, it has pleased Providence to afflict this c.aintry with a disease," &c., should be inserted in the preamble of the Bill. The in ,:ertion of these words would render the Bill uniform with another which would probably soon come before the House ; and, although he did not think it necessary, in all public proceedings, to make reference to the controul ing power of Divire Providence, yet there did .occasionally occur circumstances in which it was the duty of a Chris tian Legislature to acknowledge that Power.—(Hear.) There had been several occasions when that reference was made in Acts of Parliament. He would take that oppor tunity of alluding to a topic to which the Noble Marquis had referred—the inconvenience of creating unnecessary alarm. Being officially connected with the city of Lon don, he necessarily knew something of the measures adopted there with a view to the prevention of the spasmodic cholera. He thought, that although it appeared that all praise was due to the Board of Health—he meant not the Central Board of Health, appointed by the Government, but a Board of Health which had been formed in the city, for the superintendence only of London and the neighbourhood—although he said great praise was due to that Board for its exertions, it appeared to him to have been in some respects too active in spreading alarm, and that it had lately taken measures not only un called for but likely to be attended with injurious results. He mentioned the matter in that place, as, by doing so, he thought be used the most probable means of causing his cuinions to reach the gentlemen of the Board. Those gentlemen, amongst the other measures which they had thought adviseable to adopt for preventing the spread of the disease, had already shut up the national schools in several parts of the district under their care, and had alto aly gone so far as to appropriate those buildings for hospitals. He would take the liberty of suggesting that there were within the city of London places which might more fitly be applied to that purpose than the school-houses of the poor. He alluded to buildings which were spa cious, commodious, and well ventilated, and, being devoted only to periodical festivities, could, without any serious inconvenience, be given up for a time to the humane objects which the London Board of Health was so zealous to promote. He thought that the halls of the several Liveries of London would well answer the purpose.— (Hear, and a laugh.) The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by moving the insertion of the words " Whereas, it has pleased Almighty God to afflict this country with the disease," &c. Atter a few words from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE, it was agreed to. The LORD ADVOCATE and others, from the Commons, brought up the Cholera Prevention Bill, which was read a first time. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE gave notice, that to morrow he would move the suspension of the Standing Orders relative to this Bill. TITHES IN IRELAND. Lord ELLENBOROUGH was understood to say, that in the report of the Irish Tithe Committee it was sug gested that Government should be empowered to levy, through the agency of the Attorney-General, under a law to be hereafter passed for the purpose, the amount of tithes illegally withheld in the year 1830. But as it was evident that the Attorney-General could only act on the instructions of the Government, he wished to ask whether the expences of the proceedings to be taken by that offie,r, under the direction of his Majesty's Ministers for the recovery of tithes, should be defrayed by the Go vernment, or deducted from the gross amount? In another clause it was recommended that the Government should have power to levy the tithes due for 1831, and that ex traordinary powers should be given them for that purpose. Now he wished to know, as that power was to be given, without prejudice to the claims of the clergy for the ar rears due on preceding years, was it intend•:d that the clergy should proceed for those previous arrears, whilst the Government was proceeding in the mean time, by virtue of extraordinary powers, for the tithes of 1831 ? Now, that would give rise to an anomaly, which it was the professed object of the Noble Lords who constituted the Committee to remove—that is, that two parties should be applyieg at the same time to the one occupier for the payment of tithes. There would he also this anomaly, that whilst the tithes, for the collection of which extraordi nary powers were given, were those of 1831, the tithes of which the payment had been illegally resisted were those of 1830.—(He.ir.) But the Noble Marquis must see that the authority of the laws would not he sustained, unless power were given to enforce the payment of those tithes which were first illegally res , sted—(Hear, hear)— and unless that power were extended over the whole period during which the resistance was continued. As it did not appear that the Committee had fully considered and ma. tured their plan, it might ❑ot he too late to call the atten tion of the Noble Marquis to the two points to which his questions referred. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to say, that the expenses of recovetiog the arrears should be psid hy the clergy, so far as they did not exceed the expenses which would have been incurred in the recovering of those arrears by the ordinary processes; and that it was not pro posed to give extraordinary powers for the levying of any arrears except of those tithes of which the payment had been illegally withheld. Lord ELLENBOBOUGH agreed with the Noble Mar quis, that it would not be advisable to give extraordinary powers either to the title-owner or the Government for the recovery of all arrears without distinction. But still he was of opinion that such powers should apply to all arrears incurred during the period in which the illegal resistance was continued. The Marquis of LA NSDOWNE was not beard in bia reply. Lord ELLENBOROUGH hoped that the decision of the Noble Marquis was not irrevocable, and that Ministers would give the subject a fuller consideration. His only object in bringing these matters under the consideration of the Noble Marquis was that the Noble Lords opposite might themselves have an opportunity of making the ne cessary alterations in the Bill now on the table. Lord PLUNKETT was of opinion that the extraordinary powers ought not to extend further than for the recovery of the tithes which had been illegally withheld in the last year. The E mrl of WICKLOW said that the answers given to the questions put by the Noble Baron near him would not tend by any means to satisfy the Irish clergy, or to do away with the alarm excited by the resolutions avowed by Ministers. The Noble Marquis must know that it would be a considerable time before a Bill founded on the report could come into their Lordships' House, as it must ori ginate, be believed, in the other House of Parliament.-- Their Lordships must be aware that, in the mean time, the report would be circulated throughout the country, and would bring disappointment and alarm to the friends of the Irish Church Establishment. The report recom mended powers to be given to enforce payment only of the tithes of 1831 ; but those tithes were not payable in th a t year, and therefore time Bill could give no immediate relief, and the clergy would look upon the report as an abandonment of their property up to 1831. It was not yet the time when the clergy in most parishes were accus tomed to apply for the tithes of that year.--(Hear, hear.) But the payments that ought to be enforced were those for 1830, which were last year illegally resisted. (Hear, hear.) In truth, the system of resistance had existed inure than two years, and was confined for the most part tr one part of the country, as appeared upo n the face of the report. It did appear to him that, it any thing were wanting to prove the progress of revolu tionary principles, it would be proved by this, that such a report, declaring the subversion of the law of the land by a daring combination extending over a large portion of the United Kingdom, should be laid upon their Lordships able by a Minister of the Crown, without one word of comment bead of h s or m e ij x e p s l t a y n , s a t G i o o n v . e r n l t i n o e w n t t c he ou d No re b e l o e n c L i o l e r d t the himself to the abandonment of the law under such circumstances, and how he could reconcile his own declarations in that House some evenings ago with those since made elsewhere, be (Lord Wicklow) did not understand. In other places it had been said that although it was the determination of Ministers to uphold the laws of the land, yet they would not do so without at the same time removing the grievances existing. In that declaration it was obviously implied, that the law of the land which had existed since the annexation of Ireland to the English Crown was a (arievance.—(Hear, hear.) lie denied that the law which his Majesty's Ministers proposed to submit was a grievance. —(Hear, hear.) He denied that tithes were a grievance. They were a wise, equitable, anti useful institution. But the grievance which existed in Ireland was wholly attri butable to the Ministers themselves.—(Hear.) Had they given the people to understand in the beginning that they were friends of the law and of the Church Establishment in Ireland, there would not exist any reason for the violent revolution which they were now proposing to effect in the laws of the country.—(Hear.) Earl GREY should have thought, that if ever there were an occasion for the ebullition of party spleen and violence, which he had that evening witnessed—(Hear) — ,it certainly was not on an occasion when his ?Ilejetty's Government were about to bring forward a measure to relieve the existing distresses of the Irish clergy, and to protect their riglits.—( Hear.) He should not have thought that the time when such a measure was proposed should give occasion to such an attack upon the Members of the Government from those, above all others, who had most at heart the security of the Church and the welfare of the Government--heshould not have said who had those objects most at heart, for no man had them more at heart than he himself—but who best could speak the sentiments of the Irish clergy.—(Hear.) He trusted, however, that the Noble Earl's endeavour to raise a clamour against the measures recommended in the report of their Lordships' Committee—whatever might be the Noble Earl's motive— would not be successful.—(Hear.) He hoped that, not withstanding the attempt to misrepresent the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers, their exertions would not be miss interpreted or misunderstood. lie trusted that it would be seen that they proceeded in a determination to support the authority of the laws. —(Hear.) He trusted it would be sees, when the evidence which had been taken before the Committee should have been laid upon the table, and have been examined, that the charge which the Noble Earl brought against them, was unfounded, and that no effort h been wanting on their part to enforce the execution of the laws by every means in their power, and that they had gone even beyond what, by the strict letter of the law, might be required of them—(Heat)—wherever the clergy called for their assistance. He would appeal to the House and to the country whether he had ever been wanting in his exertions when the authority of the law was resisted ? —( Hear, hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the imputations cast upon the Government by the Noble Earl opposite, it was the determination of the King's Ministers to enforce the authority of the laws on all occasions where it should be attempted to resist them. What lie had said upon a late occasion had been made the ground of an accusation against him by a misrepresentation on the part of those who wished again to renew all the evils of party strife in Ireland, and who had nothing at heart but the triumph of party, by whatever mischiefs to the country that triumph might be attended.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It was to remove the ef fects of that misrepresentation he had made the declaration to which the Noble Earl referred. Although he (lid say that it was the determination of the Government to uphold the authority of the laws, he stated at the same time that no man was more convinced than he was of the absolute necessity of removing the grievances connected with the existing system of tithes, of which Ireland so loudly corn plains.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, in alluding to the report, took occasion to cast imputations upon his Ma jesty's Ministers. Could that Noble Earl believe that they were persons likely to shake the foundations of the laws, and to subvert the institutions of the country 2—(Elear.) The Noble Lord reproached them with proposing the ex tinction of tithes, and accused them of a design to over throw the laws, and with having denounced the law as a grievance. If the Noble Lord would look to the evidence which had been produced before the Committee, as he ought to do, if lie had no knowledge himself of what was doing in Ireland, lie would be convinced that—although it could not be admitted, nor would he (Earl Grey) ever admit, that the law of tithe was a grievance—the manner in which the law was executed was a grievance.—(llear, hear.) From that evidence the Noble Earl would see that there could not be safety to the Church or tranquillity to Ireland until an entire change should have been effected in the mode of e xecuting that law. When the words " extinc tion of tithes" were used, the meaning intended to be con veyed by them was a commutation of tithes to some other provision, which might give at the same time more satis faction and greater security to the clergy , and would pre vent a collision between them and the occupiers of the land.—(Hear.) To effect those objects, and, in doing so, to promote the peace of Ireland, was the purpose of his Maj e sty's Ministers when they proposed to the Committee the measures alluded to in the report. The proposition was submitted to the Committee with the most anxious care, and with a desire to do justice to all parties, to pre serve the rights of the Church, and to establish the peace of Ireland. With respect to the matters to which the Noble Baron opposite (Lord Ellenborough) had drawn the attention of their Lordship, he could only assure the Noble Barns that those things should be fully considered when the Bill came before the House, and when the House was in possession of the evidence necessary to enable it to decide upon them. His Majesty's Ministers were un doubtedly indebted to the Noble Baron for having di rected their attention to matters which he seemed to think could occur to none but to his superior under standing. But lie (Lord Grey) would assure the No le Lord that those matters had not been overlooked, and that the Bid would be prepared with great care. His Majesty's Ministers were as desirous as the Noble Lord of main • taining the interests of the Church ; and from the know ledge which their situations placed within their reach, they were not less acquainted with what those interests required than the Noble Baron himself. They thought that they were doing that in obtaining the extraordinary powers for which they proposed to apply ; and in what way the exercise of those powers was to lie limited, remained matter for the consideration of the House when the Bill should have been slibinitted to their Lordships. But at the same time that the Government was desirous of giving the clergy immediate relief, it was not intended to collect any tithes, except those which had been illegally withheld. In doing that the Government was maintaining the au thority of the law, and giving the clergy an opportunity of recovering, under the law, the other tithes which were previously due. lie objected to that irregular discussion of a measure which was not• yet before the House, and especially when that discussion was introduced in such a spirit—(Hear)—b y a Noble Lord representing as a revo lutionary measure a Bill which would have no other ob jects than the maintenance of the law, the protection of the Church, and the preservation of tranquillity.—(Hear.) si lie ai o:s e tt r eo u l yos restore so d : hot t reh h eei a ap t te) al t Let their Lordships look to the revolutionists of which the Committee was composed. —(Cheers.) Were their Lord ships to believ e that those Noble persons were the enemies of the clergy, desirous to shake the foundations of the land, and to subvert every thing essential to good government ? establish e i : l a : n. n oe c uw e l d d a b br. y e. the Noble Earl (Wicklow), but would come dispas ua:inhk(ell t ni o ;:itl submitted to their Lordships, with a view to maintain the rangement, by which the clergy would he placed not only i n greater security as respected their income, but in cir cumstances not exposing them to a collision with the oc cupiershear.) The Earl of WICKLOW had cast no imputations upon the Noble Lords opposite. He believed there never was a set of men who undertook such arduous duties with more zealous dispositions to discharge thew for the good of the country. The Noble Earl (Grey) said he had always been a friend to the Church. Now he (Lord Wicklow) was not sufficiently acquainted with the history of that Holies, or with the political life of the Noble Earl, or with his conduct when in opposition, to give the Noble Earl's state ment the support of his humble testimony. But then it was to be considered, the Noble Earl, though the head of the Government, was not the whole Government; that there were other persons in the Cabinet ; and that he (Lord Wicklow) had a right to look to the conduct of persons when he spoke of the measures of Govtrn i t a b e o u se t. He would remind the Noble Lord that, in 1824, a gentleman in the other House of Parliament, vho was (o, considerationloertters: ea,n0,%1%:. not much attached to the Church nor (he might say, per haps') to any other of the establishments of the country, made a motion of a revolutionary tendency, being for a Committee to inquire whether the clergy 00. ii Established Church in Ireland were not too numerous' and too highly paid. The motion was, of course, negatived, and in the minority was found the Noble Lord no,i-elflhe Woolsack, and other Members of the- present Cabinet. Was it wonderful, then, that people looked at the acts of a Mi nistry so constituted, with souse degree of apprehension, and especially when they heard the Noble Earl, in the spirit of prophecy, warn the Bench of Bishops to put their houses in order.—(Cheers.) Was it to- be wondered, that under such circumstances, people fcia4ivitli some anxiety for a declaration on the part of Ministers of an intention to maintain the rights of the Church. It was their duty to have made such a declaration, an I their not doing so, had spread alarm, which they now, by a measure which he would still call a revolution, were endeavouring to re move.—(Cheers.) The Noble Earl seemed to attribute t ) him (Lord Wicklow) some part in the present proceed ings in Ireland. He supposed the Noble Lord to allude to the Protestant meetings which had lately taken place in that country. He was not a member of any of those so cieties, nor had he attended their meetings. The Noble Lord seemed to attribute to the Noblemen of high rank and influence who attended those meetings die vreading i of the report that the Government entertain iews hostile to the Church. Of that he knew n o thit s it 16 this he would say, that no man regretted morn an he did the necessity to the revival of those societies -in Ire land. But they had not been revived without g6rit. 4 cause. He thought that their re-organization was"' mainly owing to the conduct of the Government itself.— ( Hear, hear.) He believed that so loog as the people of that country thought that they had a watchful Government guarding over their interests, and that so cieties which were agitating Ireland were but evils inci dental to the Constitution, so long the loyal portion of the people remained tranquil.—(Hear, hear.) But when he saw the Government lending itself to those associations— ( Hear)—and giving their support and confitlence,ooh4 who were their enemies, and th e d ec id e d enemies country—when they saw men of that description—: (Cheers)—made the objects of the favour and patronage of the Government—when the head of the Government stood up in that House, and said that the leader of those associations was fitted, by his talents and learning, for any office tinder any Government, setting no value upon bite s , grity or loyalty (as the Noble Lord (Wicklow) was under- . stood to sav), as if these were no requisites for office— then the Protestants of Ireland thought it was time for them to look to the security of their rights and property— (Cheers.) He would never be presented from doing his , duty as a Peer of that House, and expressing his opinions ' freely, by sneers and taunts, even when they came from the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, who, although he had complained of them, dealt as much In them as any Member of their Lordships' House. The LORD CHANCELLOR would not complain that the allusion of the Noble Earl to him was very inconve nient and irregular. It was tl so much the Government as the report of the Committee that was the object of tlsf Noble Earl's attack. The words " extinction of tithes': were the words of the report.—(hear, heat'.) If those words had not been in the report of your Committee, " trust me," said the Noble and Learned Lord, " your Lordships never would have heard the attack." But even so, the words being in the report, the attack was really made upon the Committee, and not upon the Government. But the words were so qualified that it was impossible to suppose that " extinction" was used in the odious sense, or that it was meant to signify the destruction of Church property, It was plainly the meaning of the Committee that tithes should be extinguished by a commutation to some other mode of payment, which should be attended with less inconvenience to all parties, and with more secu rity to the Church. He (the Lord Chancellor) had had , no connection with the Committee, but then it seemed that, in the other House of Parliament, he had voted with some other gentlemen, to whom he did not believe the words used by the Noble Earl (Wicklow) were aptly ap plied.—(Hear.) He did not believe that those gentle men were enemies of the Church, or that the object was to pull down the Church, and not only the Church, but all the other institutions of the country. Lord WICKLOW made some explanation, which was not heard in the gallery. The LORD CHANCELLOR was glad that he had misunderstood the Noble Earl. Indeed I.e should be very glad to hear that the Noble Earl meant to say something the very contrary to what he had understood him to say —(A laugh)—but in his ears, the words of the Noble Lord sounded very like these—(A laugh)—" that the gen tleman who proposed the motion ar is no friend to the Church, nor to other institutions of the country; and that the object of the motion was revolutionary." Now he did not know at that moment what might have been the pre cise nature of a motion made so long ago ; but this he knew, that although he believed that he voted for the motion, whatever it was, because the Noble Earl said so, yet sure he was that it could have no such object as the Noble Lord supposed. He never could have voted for any motion of which the object was to destroy the property of 1 the Church, or to impair the security of the other institu tions of the country.—(Hear.) He would undertake to assure the Noble Lord, that the resolution which he on that occasion voted for, whatever it might have been, had no such tendency.—(Hear.) But when he looked to the state of Ireland, end of the Church of Ireland, and the difficulties which obstructed the establishment of peace and good government in that country, and when he saw some friends of the Church endeavouring to engross to them selves all credit for good intentions to its cause, he must say that one observation occurred to his wind, which was that the friends of the peace of Ireland, and of good go• vernment in Ireland, and of the Established Church in Ireland, hail good reason to pr ty that they- might have any other friends rather than those.—(Cheers.) The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought that the report should have been more complete than it now was before it was laid on their Lordships' table. It stated great evils, but it laid down no principles by which those evils could be put an end to. In this state the report would go forth to the world, and would not tend to allay those party feel ings which existed in Ireland. The Noble Earl cons- i plained of the subject exciting party feelings, but he hoped that to that degree of party feelings which was necessary to preserve the Established Church it would be exposed. lie had no party feelings on the subject, and the Noble Earl would pardon him that he could not look to the mea sure as a source of security and tranquillity ; he could not look at it as calculated to realise the hopes and expecta tions excited ; and looking back at the measures adopted in Ireland—looking at the state of that country—looking at the vacillation of the Government of Ireland, taking up and laying down measures as that great agitator of Ireland dictated, who had acknowledged himself guilty of breaking the law—looking at the Government afterwards courting his hollow assistance to secure the country against agi tation--looking at these things, could he expect from the measures now proposed tranquillity for Ireland and security for the Protestant Church ? lie should not have said so much had it not been for the eagerness of the Noble Earl. If the report of the Committee mentioned the extinction of tithes, he might complain that one day the plan was commutation and anuther extinction.—(Hear, hear.) Formerly it was extinction, now it was commutation.— (Na, no.) The Noble Earl was not consistent in his state ments. —(No, no, and laughter.) Earl GREY had not said one word about ti e extinction or commutation. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM had formerly heard of extinction, and now heard of commutation.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl had not shown how tithes were to be com muted. In the present state of Ireland, he did not think such a scheme could last 48 hours. When they promul gated the report they were bound to state—considering the situation and anxiety of Ireland—they were bound to state to what extent the measures were to go which they contemplated.—( Hear, hear.) lI came down to the House only intending to put the question to the Noble Earl which he would then ask, which was—when did the Noble Earl intend to explain to the House the plan be had i❑ contemplation? Lord PLUNKETT wished to say with respect to the language used by his Noble Friend (Earl Grey) on a Ibr mer occasion, that it Was not possible for any language to he more industriously misrepresented, though it was then mast gratefully accepted by cheers from the other side. He would not enter into his Noble Friend's views, but only say, that the language be then used was exactly the same as what he had now sa id . Th ere were persons in Ireland of two opposite factions, who were reckless of all the consequences to the peace and tranquillity of the CHOLERA AND POVERTY. (From the Moming Chronicle.) fitted that the ravages of confined to the classes mbits, and debilitated by less. Those who are pre :holera, are in a state to is and several other dis questioned whether the augment the _annual mor ilood. a malignant fever raging of the metropolis ; and .ate of the population, we suspect malignant diseases of some kind are constant ji t , at quarter. What are called low neighbO s in this part of the metropolis, such as .Saffron-hill, St. Giles's, Westminster, end some or the courts leading out of Oxford ifreet, are Paradises compared with the damp, unpaved lanes of Spitalfields and Bethnal-green. We do qof believe that there is in Europe such .a mastiAlevel poverty, as that of the half a mil ;lion iilirouls in the eastern part of the metropolis. he ravages of cholera at Sunderland were favoured by a state of things common to that town l this metropolis, and many other towns . 91 the island. We allude to the parochial di a'coarding to which the rich and the poor ,afe a. separaiirom each other, and the poor are ' left without adequate care and support. ." . '"l34siauliwearrnouth," says Mr: Ainsworth, " has the advantage of being inhabited by the wealthier classes : it is a neat, svell.built, and airy town, in which the pestilen -1 tial disease scarcely ever dared to show itself. Much in convenience results from this great difference between the 'Alwo parishes ; for all the wealthier persons taking up their 'abode in Bishop Wearmouth, the poor of Sunderland are deprived•even of the few resources wbich remained for `them in tWe contributions of the rich. Their difficulties are flirther increased by a system, which I believe obtains in.many parish towns of Great Britain, of farming out the I I caTe of the poor to the highest bidder ; and it is a passing ju among the good people of Sunderland, that tbe oc cupant of this novel kind of lucrative situation generally reti* at the expiration of a few years, a sharer in th pOssessipt of one or two stout vessels on the river." ~- This is exactly the case in the eastern division .'t of the metropolis. The inhabitants are all in a state of level poverty. Their employers gene rally live in better neighbourhoods ; and there is no adequate property to be assessed for the poor. Whenever an attempt is made in St. Matthew, Bethnal-green, to raise the rates, what Swift says of the arithmetic of the Customs—that two and two do not always make four, but often one—is experienced, the amount is diminished rather than increased by the numbers who become re ceivers instead of payers. Now we contend that these arbitrary divisions in cities and towns, in which there is one system of labour, ought not to be allowed in the case of poor rates. A town or city cannot be divided ; it should be considered as one whole. In this manlier, and this manner alone, can the poor be adequately provided for. It is quite clear that as the rich will always live away from the poor, if one parochial division comprehends the rich, and another the poor, the latter must be ne glected, and that pestilential diseases must pre vail among them. We have always understood that the excel lence of the system of managing the poor in Manchester, Birmingham, &c. is owing to the absence of the above arbitrary divisions. The rich and the poor are thus, as they ought to be, connected together. In the North of England, in many places the poor are systematically destroyed. It is obvious, however, that this killing off system may be car ried so far as to engender pestilential diseases, which may in time destroy rich as well as poor. Hutton, in his History of Birmingham, while he extols the system of managing the poor which prevails in that enlightened town, alludes to the hiorpid practice of systematic starving to death which prevails, we fear but too ex t ens i ve ly, i n the North of ? England. "In some parishes," he observes, " the unfortunate paupers have the additional misery of being sold to a mer cenary wretch, to starve upon twelvepence a head. It is matter of surprise that the Ma gistrates should wink at this cruelty ; but it is a matter of pleasure that no accu, sation comes within the verge of my historical remarks ; for the wretched of Birmingham are not made more so by ill treatment, but meet with a kindness acceptable to distress." By way of illustrating this observation as to the starving system, he says—" In 1768 a small property fell into my hands, situated in a neighbouring village ; I found the tenant had entered upon the premises at the age of 22 ; that he had re sided upon them with poverty and a fair cha racter during the long space of 46 years. I told him he was welcome to spend the residue of his life upon the spot gratis. He continued there ten years after, when finding an inability to procure support from labour, and meeting with no assistance from the parish in which he had been resident for an age, he resigned the place with tears, after an occupation of fifty-six years, and was obliged to recoil upon his own parish, about twelve miles distant, to be farmed with the rest of the poor; and where, he after wards assured me, they were murdering him by inches. But no complaint of that kind „ lies against that people whose character I draw. It would be both more humane and more safe to murder the poor at once rather than murder them by inches ; for if they must be murdered in the former way, the rich would escape the charm of suffering from the pestilential diseases gene rated by the piece-meal murdering system. in It seems- ..-se-admit , the chole - Jr" almost By that are '‘,4 . 7 4 - :in their It WO. low diet' .+ • runkenne: dispose'::s • tanks of the b e .o'ff by typhus ea . ... !II ith may be toys cct , 7- • will materially a ~of any neighbourh [ltd. t- ere is at this time intA eastern division ero. from the wretched state ligne if their party views were successful. His Nob'e Friend had never altered his sentiments, or given on the ' r o e band the smallest reason to believe that in his opinion the just rights of the Church ought to be abandoned ; nor, ou the other hand, had his Noble Friend ever uttered a sentiment which could make it be supposed that the just expectations of the people were not to he attended to. The proceedings of the Committee con firmed his Noble Friend's declaration. Relief was in the first instance, propsed to be given to the sutr , ring clergy by the Government—the Government taking on it.elf to prosecute the rights of the clergy. At the same time it was declared—and this was the opinion of all re sonable men, it was confessed by the clergy themselves— that there was no security fur the Church—no safety for the Establishment, unless the system of tithes was extin tinguished. He was far from insinuating that the Noble Duke, his Noble Friend if he might so call him, would wilfully misrepresent what had fallen from the Noble Earl—the whole course of his life, and his great stake in both countries, would not admit of any man forming such an opinion ; but he did entreat his Noble Friend to consider whether he was promoting the interest of the Church by holding his present language. The clergy of Ireland, lie could assure his Noble Friend, would not con ,,;der those their friends who male use of it. The clergy of Ireland were grateful to the Government for what it had done. If any body thought that the clergy were not contented with what the Government had done, he was mistaken. if Noble Lords would wait till they read the evidence given by several churchmen before the Commit tee, they would find that there was no jealousy of this plan, suit that it was the opinion of all those interested for the welfare of Ireland that the tithe system could n,t be continued. It was said that the laniliage was different, and that both extinction and commutation had been men- Coned; he had not seen any objectionable iltrase.s of this kind. His Noble Friend had not used the word extinc tion, but the Committee had. The report of ths C ‘rumittee used both phrases, both extinction and commutation. This was a plain proposition, which he saw no difficulty in under stang/ing. Was it fair to state that the Government wished to injure the Church, when it raised expects of putting an end to daily conflicts between the clergyadd the people, Intl when it endeavoured to restore peace? Would it it,jure the character of the Ministers of - Gtitcles who were en aiedin intepreting the word of Gisik'to tte people ? orruld it injure the interests of tt_ree' - 'Church to take sAy these sources of conflict? Woslld t. nut the instruc itin of '46 clergy be more cordially received by the people if thlirsisurce of dispute did no(exist? With respect to the Government of Ireland, he wished that some facts titre stated, some plain proposition Advanced, some proof Men, that it had neglected to protect the rights of the clergy. He begged that some instances might be given of cotes in which the law afforded the means of protecting the clergy, and the Government had refused its aid. The Toet was, that by the rage of party feelings, Ireland was torn to pieces. They lost sight o !er interest to thwart every Government which did not gitself before one or the other party. That was the feet '',,,vfitlieoe partiet.l - ; i,ut they forgot that ther‘ was a third party—the pinhs of Ireland, whose interest demanded the care of ill t epost • vernment. There was the party of Protestant AscendasicV • . , and the party of the Democracy; and they were boat •;',,,,,,"' isitile to the Government, whi c h, f or once , was iii ( ' .r 7,2; apposition to both. This was the 'cause of the COM- j ' •-• plaints made against the Irish Gent. There 4 teas no person more firmly attache all the best >'-' v interests of Ir ' than the Mar9uls of Anglesea. • If injury were o red to the clergy, and assistance sere detneded, Ili was immediately and promptly 1! . 4 iven. Let•illyirsLordships 100 at the evidence - before tite CommVs4raitit not run away With vague notions, and . they would-ifithe fact stated by personr•of different , :, 4, .. •rviks, that there was altilßion that the Cc:vernal& woull s not support /he clergy. 'But (hey have.no instancy s ' . in which assists ace not been given. The chirge watillagst,' • she Governs:44V - notsupTmat the rights of the clergy : . s , Hit if their LorXhipinsould Mititoet,to,„lhe wild siwges- . ...t tions of party . feelingthress nee, tisgswould find that there -WaB4lo instance ' We' nmetit 'having ever refused to Thr so. Ttr4. bad hea onsitch of lawless as socialions of the agitoitts," i lkivould inadertake to say • that there were otheifiasith tions stili . smore lawless...-. (hear, hear.) .I'here sainhie.ia 'less Democracy Associa \ lion, and the lawless Ascendancy Association. The De mocracy Assisociation was wicked ,mischievous, and dan gerous. He had often looked a titwith apprehension ; but it two mixed up, lawless as it was, with some real Vievances. It might be said, why did the law not putt dowli? The Jaw had been applied bui*tviettig not gi; - beyond the laiv, and they must take awtq'the grievanoo, lie saw some necessity for this Association; but without itnputing any motives to the other party, charity even obligsti him to say that they were the most senseless class of Associations that he had ever heard of. He was afraid of the former, but he could not possibly feel any respect for the latter. One specific person had been pointed out —a person of whom it was said the Government was tfraid, and before whom the Government was described to humble itself. He was the last person who could be expected to panegyrise the individual alluded to, for he had never hesitated to do his duty towards the public, though it might be against that individual. In the fulfilment of that duty, when he held a sitaatiin different from his pre ..ent situation, he had institutets a prosecution against that individual, and he could tell their Lordships how that prosecution was defeated. It was defeated because, in the spirit of thwarting the Government, the oppositt , party took up the defence of its greatest enemy, and pNs vented that public good being effected.—(llear, hear.) He wished to tell their Lordships that it was not so easy to catch that person within the law. He had carefully ob served his proceedings fur many years, and he would de clare, as a constitutional lawyer, that he bad only fount one occasion on which he thought that individual could _ .. be successfully prosecuted. He was successfully prose cuted, and nothing but the expiration of the Act of Par liament prevented him from being brought up for punish inent.—(llear, hear.) With respect to the Government not daring to execute the law, he would only say that it did not dare to go beyond the law. It was said that the Government had offered a place to that gentleman, which was a report without foundation. :Much as he con demned the conduct of that individual, he must say that, As far as he knew, the declaration formerly made by hit Noble Friend was strictly true. The professional pur suits and professional reputation of that g , ntleruan were so great, that nobody ranked higher. As a practical barrister, his reputation entitled him to the highest place. To indulge in angry feelings was nor, he believed, the best means of conducting affairs to a satisfactory result ; and looking to the situation to which the general business of that person whuld entitle him, lie thought it would be advantageous, if means could be found, to disarm him of mit,chief. If the Gus, vernment could not have done that, it would have been acting a wise part to place that gentleman in a situation where his opposition would cease. To that extent he had been willing to go ; but to say that the Government had, humbled itself before that individual was most untrue. Ht• called then, upon the Noble Lord, to put his finger on any act of the Government in which it had not supported the laws. He was sure that the interest of the clergy had been supported in Ireland, though the Protestants of the North of Ireland had made some loud complaints. These p -rsons called themselves the guardians of the public peace, and they associated to put an end to the peace of the country. He had looked through their proceedings—he had ex 'mined their speeches, abstracting himself from other usiness, and he could openly declare that he had not found one intelligent proposition in all their proceedings. They called out for protection from the law—they called out to preserve the Constitution—hut they did not esta blish any infraction of the laws, or point out any remedy which could be adopted. The Government was beset by enemies on both sides.—(Hear, hear.) But time good feeling of the great body of the people—of all the sound, and intelligent, and sensible part of the population, wis in its favour, as it looked to them for support. If the Government did not show any favour to either party— ! if it at once protected the clergy and protected the people, he had no apprehension of the results.—(llear.) The Duke of BUCKINGHAM explained that lie did not say that both extinction and commutation bad been spoken of by the Noble Earl (Grey); but he stated that the Noble Earl had not mentioned extinction, and his ' , agues in the other House hail. The E irl of CARNARVON could not but express his surprise that such warm language should he used in a de hate which had grown up so incidentally. If the Govern ment were to act on the principles it professed; if it were to pursue that even-handed justice the Noble Lord had ascribed to it, he should be sorry to see any measure pro that w he ish il e a d the language of pro posed for the public good opposed in linmine froin party animosity. He could not, however, agree with the Noble Lord, in ascribing that character to the Government; and he could not help feeling that the language indulged in ! Y the Noble Lord was calculated to alarm the already ir ritated Protestants. The Noble Lord bad describedd themever men more deficient in intellect than any he had beheld.—(Hear.) character to the Prote.t.ints; in one intelligible proposition. their speeches he could not find ,c The Earl of CARNAR%O. was glad to hear any ex planation—(Hear, d PLUNKETT d l enie b t u l I at' n (Hear, hear)—but io the Noble Lord had been more temperate. The Noble Lord would not say the party of the Protestants were few, lie had only said ed tshuacth A