The Sun. — London, England, 1832-07-31 00:00:00

'Alan to state particular grounds of approbation where all had proved so satisfactory. He should not, therefore, enter into a detail of the manner in which the duties of the chair had been discharged. All must be aware of that urbanity uniformly displayed towards every Member of the House, and by which their dig nity had been maintained on occasions of the most trying nature. He hid not the least doubt that hereafter, when any individual reviewed the last fifteen years of the pro ceedings of Parliament—if he looked upon them as an im partial historian, he doubted not t bat he would record them as forming a period of our history, when the right , of the House of Commons were best upheld with the least pretensions. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not only entitled to official consideration, but every Member of that House was bound to him by the ties of affection.— (Cheers.) He would not detain the House further than by adding the expression of his regret—a regret which must be common to all who heard him—that the period had now arrived when they must of necessity be deprived of services so valuable. He must he permitted to say, that whether it pleated the Right Hon. Gentleman to re• tire into the walks of private life, or continue to take an interest, or a part, in the great concerns of the nation— (Hear, hear)—whichever of these alternatives he might adopt, that House and the country would retain a crateful recollection of his services, which throughout the empire had awakened one crncurrent voice of approbation. Mr. LITTiLtTOI‘; alluded to the constant attention which, through six successive Parliaments, the Went Hon. Gentleman had paid to the purification of the pro needings concerning private Bills, and to that urbanity and disregard of personal leisure and convenience which had characterized his intercourse with Meinb,rs in reference to those proceedings.—(Cheers.) On this subject it might be sufficient to cite the fact, that in the first Parliament in which the Right. Hon. Gentleman had presided, a ero• portion of one out of five of the private Bills was informal, while in the last Parliament the proportion was dimi nished to not more than one in seventeen. Thus the public gained by the additional security afforded to pro perty through the vigilance of their Chairman, while, owing to the same cause, the House was likewise a gainer in economizing its time. Having seconded the nomina tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he could not let the present opportunity pass without this expression of his sentiments. Sir F. BURDETT having had the honour of voting in favour of the nomination of the Chairman, could not feel satisfied with himself if he did not bear testimony to his conduct during the time he had presided in that House.— (Hear.) He would only say, that if one thing more than another imparted weight to the situation occupied by the Right Hon. Gentleman, independent of its intrinsic im portance, he (Sir F. Burdett) would attach great value to that characteristic which, in the discharge of his duties, he had invariably displayed, and which he should designate the name of gentlemanly deportment.—(Cheers.) Ile would not assert that persons might not came after the Right Hon- Gentleman who would equal him in the mode in which he had filled the situation te which he had been called, but he would say that it was impossible for any man to prove his superior.—(Cheers.) Not only had this per suasive influence been effectively exercised by the Right Hon. Gentleman, but having filled the Chair of that House for 16 years, he believed that he had never been a single day absent, with the exception of one melancholy occasion.—( Hear.) Sir G. 'MURRAY heartily concurred in supporting the Noble Lord's motion. He could bear testimony to the effective mode in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had presided in that House, and must express his regret that on the assembling the new Parliament they should he de prived of the benefit of his experience. Lord J. RUSSELL could not reconcile it to his feel ings to omit the opportunity of declaring his deep sense of the value of the assistance which the House and the coun try had derived from the Right Hon. Gentleman's admira ble performance of the duties of his office. If at the pe riod of his nomination there appeared any differences of opinion as to the claims of the two candidates, there was among the parties, to his recollection, but one sentiment—. namely, that they rendered thereby the best service to the Members of that House.—(Hear.) If Members promptly seconded the endeavours of the Right Hon. Gentleman to enforce the orders of the House, much of this was owing to the gentlemanly feeling, which made an individual not only responsible for the violation of a point of duty in transgressing an order, but also left him something to an swer for as a private person in resisting rules enforced in such an equal temper and conciliatory spirit.—(Cheers.) Another equally intimate with the laws and usages of I'ar_ Hament, yet not possessed of the same happy disposition , might have failed in accomplishing what the Right Hon. Gentleman had so easily achieved. He would not allude to his predecessors in office, bot he would say with re spect to those who might succeed him, that if they wished to give dignity to the chair—if they wished to give effect to the laws of Parliament (the best he believed that ever were framed)—and if they desired to make the execution of those laws pleasant and easy, he trusted they would look up to the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman; and he hoped that those present with him in that House would endeavour to make up the loss they should sustain by his retirement by imitating his example.—( Hear.) Sir C. WETHERELL said, that the best test of the Right Hon. Gentleman's merits was the coincidence of opinion on all sides of the House.—(Hear.) It was mat ter of congratulation that, divided as they were upon other subjects, they were agreed in their appreciation of their Chairman's services and character. In the first legislative assembly in Europe,—he would add, in an assembly of the first gen lemon in Europe, that Right Hon. Gentle man bad, by his courteous deportment; realized and car ried into effect the orders of the House. While he was gratified in uttering these sentiments, his emotions were not unmixed with pain when learning that the chair was to be so soon vacated. The SPEAKER then put the resolution, which was agreed to with an unanimous burst of affirmatives, followed by loud cheers. The SPEAKER expressed his most grateful . and re spectful thank s f o r th e v ote to which the House had just assented. He begged to assure the House, with the ut most sincerity, that long as he had been in public life, and frequently as it had been his duty to address them, he had never felt so incompetent to give utterance to his feelings as he did at that moment. After the honour thus conferreed upon him, it would be hypo crisy to disclaim all merit on his own part. His merit lay in the ambition anxiously and steadily to persevere in the discharge of his duty so far as be was able, and from the House had emanated the power, force, and strength, to carry that intention into effect. To the House he owed every thing, and it any kind of distinction were peculiarly valuable to a public man, it was the public approval of his services by those he hail the honour of serving. Lord ALTHORP then moved the following resolu tion,—" That the thanks of this House be given to Mr. Speaker, for what he has said this day to the House, and that the same be printed in the votes of this day, and en tered in the Journal of this House."—Agreed to nem. con. Lord ALTHORP now rose for the purpose of perfect. ing the duty which had devolved upon him, and, in doing so, he was sure that he should have the concurrence of every Gentleman present. Having expressed their feeling of the mode in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had discharged the duties of his office, it became them also to indicate their approval of his conduct in another form.— (Cheers.) It became them to state to their Sovereign their sense of the manner in which he had filled the situa tion he had occupied, and humbly to pray that the ap proval of his conduct might be marked by a reward which, though inadequate in itself, would at least constitute a per manent expression of the estimation in which his deserts were held. The Noble Lord then moved— " That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to confer some signal mark of his royal favour upon the Right Hon. Charles Manners Sut ton, for his eminent services in the six Parliaments during which he has discharged the duties of Speaker of this House, with a zeal and ability alike honourable to himself and con ducive to the progress of public business, to commence and take effect immediately upon his ceasing to hold the office of Speaker of this House ; and to assure his Majesty that this House will make good' whatever expense his Majesty may think proper to be incurred on that account." The motion being put, was unanimously adopted, and t was agreed that an address in accordance with its terms should be laid before his Majesty by such Members of the House as were of his Majesty's Privy Council. CIVIL LIST. Lord ALTHORP moved that the House resolve itselt into a Committee on the Civil List Act, and Civil Govern ment charges. On the question being put, " That the Speaker do leave the Chair," Mr. W. WARBURTON asked whether provisie-n would be made for the performance of the judicial duties in the Court of Review, during the long vacation. Sir T. DENMAN expressed his belief that no long va cation in this court was contemplated. He had looked to the act of Parliament, and thought that it afforded mean, for preventing. any inconvenience of the kind. The SPEAKER then left the chair, and the House went into committee. Lord ALTHORP regretted extremely the delay which had occurred in bringing on the business on which he wa , about to enter before the House. Late, however, as it wa in the session, it.appeared to bum necessary that the House should not separate without an adjustment of a question for the settlement of Which they had given pledges to his ~~~ Majesty. By the Civil List Act a large proportion of the expenditure had been removed from the Civil List, and brought under the cognizance of Parliament—it having previously had the effect of making his Majesty appear to receive a larger amount of the country's resources than he really did. In consequence of the representations of the Salaries' committee, he came forward to make provision for those charges which were formerly on the Civil List, but were now lopped off. These were—the salaries of the judges in England and Ireland, including the Lord Chan cellor of Ireland,—the diplomatic expenditure,—the pen sions that were on the Civil List, and were no longer placed there,—the allowances for salaries in England anti Scotland,—the salary of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, the s Clary of the Speaker of the House of Commons, and the salary of the Speaker of the House of Lords. The Com mittee had recommended that the whole salary of the Lord Chancellor of England should amount to 11,000/. a-year. The emolument of this officer as Speaker to the Lords, amounting to a yearly income of 4,000/., he was to receive as heretofore, and it was intended to place the 10,0001. additional on the Suitors' Fund. It was proposed to in crease the Chancellor's retiring pension from 4,0001. per annum to 5,0001., to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. On this point he would take occasion to state what had been communicated to him by the Lord Chancellor, that it was not his intention to accept any larger retiring pension than former Chancellors, in case he quitted office before Parliament had made arrangements respecting the places, the disposal of which was attached to the office. The next point to which he should call their attention was the salary of the Speaker of that House. This bad been de rived from various sources, and it was now proposed to charge the whole salary in one sum on the Consolidated Fund, by which the accounts would be simplified. It was proposed to charge the whole of the salaries of the English and Irish Judges on the Consolidated Fund. In these no alterations, save one, was contemplated. All persons appointed to judicial offices previous to September, 1828, were allowed 5,500/. a year. All subsequently appointed had received their offices on condition of acceding, when parliamentary regulation should reduce their salaries to 5,000/. a year. Four Judges, besides the Welsh Judges, had been appointed on this understauffng, which would be carried into effect. The salary of the Cursitor Baron, whose office, after the existing interest had terminated, was to he abolished, was at present paid partly out of the Civil List and partly by fees. That part derived from the Civil List was to he charged on the Consolidated Fund. The next item, on which there existed some difference of opinion, was the salary of the Judge of the Admiralty Court in Ire. land. This salary, which was 500/. at the time of the period of the union, had since been raised to 1,000/.—a sum that, looking to the business and importance of the Court, appeared to be too much. It was, therefore, in tended to reduce it to the original amount. The original walary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was 30,00 Q/. Irish currency, or 27,692/. English. During his Vicle royalty, the Duke of Northumberland had proposed to relinquish the odd 7,692/., thereby reducing the salary to 20,000/., at which it was intended to be fixed. He now came to the consideration of a question, on the discussion of which he had the misfor tune to differ from gentlemen who generally supported him—he alluded to the pensions. He had heard all the arguments on this subject in the House, and he had read much that had been written upon it, and it was decidedly his opinion, that if they took advantage of a technicality as to pensions being granted during pleasure, which were, in reality, given during life ;—he repeated, that if th e y took advant a g e o f suc h technicality, they would act in a way than which nothing could be more unworthy of the honour of this great country. This question appeared to him so clearly in the light of a debt of honour, that, how ever it might have been advantageous for Lim to adopt a different course, still he felt bound in honour, as a gentle man, not to take advantage of any technicality concerning it while he remained a 'Minister of this country. He was therefore determined to take the responsibility upon him self (however unpopular it might be) of submitting a proposition, founded upon these opinions, to the House. When this subject was referred to the Committee, the pensions of England amounted to 73,6951. ; of Scot. land, to 30,4671.; of Ireland, to 51,1551.: those on the -0 5 - per cent. fund amounted to 22,295/. Of the last, some were for life, and over them his Majesty bad no power; and others during pleasure, over which the Crown had unequivocal control by 7 George IV. By arrangements entered into at the passing of that Act, no more pensions of this class were to be granted, until the expenses of the bishops and clergy in the West Indies were provided for, which had not yet been ac complished. The pensions on the 43 per cent., beyond his Majesty's control, amounted to 11,468/., advanced to persons during life, and one bad been granted by Charles 11. to Lord Kinnoul and his heirs for ever. Exclusive of these pensions, there remained an aggregate for the three kingdoms of 155,0001. and of this the whole sum at present allowed on the Civil List was 75,0001. This was a great sacrifice on the part of the Crown, and was increased by a further sacrifice of 2,0001. a•year. Looking to the pen • sions on the 44 per cent. fund that would expire with the ordinary decay of life, and to other reductions, there would be an ultimate saving to the public of 102,612/. The present Government, he admitted, had no right to claim all the credit for this, as the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo site (Mr. Goulburn) had reduced the pensions to 145,7501. He would next advert to the diplomatic expenditure. The salaries of diplomatic agents on active service were at pre sent subject to deductions for taxes and duties which were afterwards repaid. Instead of this operose mode of pay ment, it was proposed to give their net salaries to diplomatic agents on active service, and to reduce the pensions to the net receipts. The charge nn the Civil List amounted to 196,9501., of which 144,9501. was for active service, and 52,0001. for pensions. This charge was not strictly adhered to ; and when the ex penditure did not reach the entire sum, the balance was paid into the Consolidated Fund. There were, besides the missions thus provided for, others of a minor description, as to Greece, Albania, Columbia, and Buenas Ayres, that were provided for by votes of the House. The total ex pense of these was 22,5001., which was to be added to the sum of 144,9501. It was proposed to reduce this aggregate expenditnre to 140,0001., by which a saving would be effected of 27,4501. It had been recommended that the pensions should be reduced to 40,000/. a year, and that till the reduction was made, not more than 2,0001. should be granted in any one year. This recom mendation was calculated to place Government in a situa tion of very cons . d.rable difficulty. There were a cer tain number of ministers abroad who, from long service, and from considerations of private fortune, had good claims to a diplomatic pension. It was, therefore, necessary to propose that theses hould be added to the pension list as it stood at present, and afterwards to adhere as closely as possible to the recommendation of the committee. The pension list now amounted to 56,8101., but as there were some very old lives upon it, it was probable that reductions would arise in the ordinary course of nature. Far the salaries and allowances formerly paid from tl,e civil lis•.; of England, it was proposed to provide during the continuance of the existing interests, by which the questions would not be prejudged. Some of these were grants during life, some were permanent, and some during pleasure, The same dis tinctions prevailed in the Irish grants. There were other charges of a different nature in the Civil List, originating at the time of the diss'olution of the monasteries. These were not to be retained on the Civil List, but were to he placed on the land revenues of the Crown. The whole arrangements would create a saving to the public of 252,0001. The Noble Lord concluded by moving " That there be issued and paid to the Speaker of the House of Commons, out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and Ireland, the sum of 6,000/., in lieu of fees," &c. Mr. GOULBURN said, that in accordance with the recommendation of the Finance Committee, it was proper that the salary of the Speaker should he paid entirely out of the Consolidated Fund, instead of being partly defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund, and partly from fees. He, therefore, approved of that propo•ition. He was also fa vourable to the arrangement with respect to the Judges. Those created previous to 1828 were to receive 5,5001. a year, and those raised to the Bench since that period were to have five thousand pounds a year. Th e Noble Lord had not, however, stated what was in tended to be done with reference to the Scotch Judges. Their case had been brought before diffe rent Governments, and it was allowed on all hands to be one of great hardship. He did think, that when the Noble Lord brought forward a proposition for a c'rtain reduction of the salary of the English Judges, he might with great propriety have noticed the situation of the Scotch Judges, who were insufficiently paid, and who , e duties bad been lately increased. The next point was an arrangement of the Lord Chancellor's salary; and he un derstood from the Noble Lord, that no part of that salary was to be charged on the Consolidated Fund, but that the retiring salary was to be defrayed out of that fund. Now he could see no reason why, in that respect, the Lord Chancellor of England should be placed in a different situ ation from that of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, or of the other Judges of the realm. To suffer that salary to be paid out of the Suitors' Fund was contrary to the re commendation of the Finance Committee. He understood also, the Chancellor's retiring pension was hereafter to be .5,000/. instead of 4,0001. a y ear. He certainly was anxious that officers holding high judicial situations should receive an ample retiring allowance; but he did not like the prin. ciple of increasing that allowance on the ground of the insufficiency of the salary which they received while in office. He should prefer giving additional salary to the Chancellor rather than patronage or a small additional in crease of the retiring pension, because out of a handsome additional increase of salary a Chancellor could better make some sort of provision for those who came after him. In his opinion, a retiring pension of 4,0001. a year, was an adequate remuneration, and had never been complained of as too little by those who had held the great seal. As to the proposition respecting the salary of the Lord Lieu tenant of Ireland, it met with his entire concurrence. lie found that the diplomatic expenditure was to be reduced to 140,0001. a-year, and the pensions connected with that branch to 50,0001. a-year. Now he could not see how it was possible to keep those pensions within the limit of 46,0001. or 50,0001. a-year. The amount must be deter mined by circumstances. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord that it was not economy, but a want of eco nomy, ❑ot to reward high diplomatic characters liberally. Therefore he would not confine the expenditure for pen sions to 50,000/. or to any other specific sum. He was of opinion, however, that individuals might be found in the receipt of pensions who were perfectly competent to undertake diplomatic missions. With respect to the general principles which the Noble Lord had laid down, he approved of them, and no man would be found a warmer supporter of those principles than himself. Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought that the proposition relative to the retiring allowance of the Lord Chancellor was perfectly justifiable. The difference between his situation and that of other Judges was obvious. Whe❑ the latter were raised to the Bench, it was true they gave up their practice ; but they could not be deprived of their situations, and they retained them until age or infirmity obliged them to retire. This was not the case with the Lord Chancellor. On every change of Adruini•tration he was removed, and therefore it was proper that a liberal provision should be made for him on his retirement.— The case of the Scotch Judges unquestionably demanded attention. In 1825, the then Administration agreed that the salaries of those functionaries should be raised. That, however, had not been done ; and certainly he thought that they were entitled to a remuneration amounting at least to one-half of what was paid to the English Judges. The number of Judges had been reduced from 15 to 13, the Consistorial and Admiralty Courts had been also lished,—additional labour had thus bee❑ thrown upon those functionaries, but they received no additional remu neration. He hoped that even in the present Session the Noble Lord would take an opportunity to do justice to those most learned and estimable persons. Sir E. SUGDEN said, that persons holding high judi cial situations should be placed in a state of perfect inde pendence. In his view of the question, the retiring pen sion of 5,0001. to the Chancellor was not too much. It was undoubtedly a large sum, especially when they took into account the current salary ; but when they recollected that circumstances might render the tenure of the office extremely brief, it was quite clear to him that 5,0001. a year was not too much. Before the question of the Chan cellor's salary was decided on, he should like to see an average of the amount of salary received by different Chan cellor's during the last fourteen or fifteen years, because the salary must be regulated by that amount. I❑ making these few observations, he did not mean to make allusion to any particular Chancellor, he spoke solely and entirely of the office. Mr. SINCLAIR said a few words, the purport of which we could not collect. Mr. SPENCE said the present Lord Chancellor, im mediately on his coming into office, bad applied to indi viduals who perfectly understood all the details of business in the Court cf Chancery, to give him their advice and assistance with respect to the reform which he meditated. Meetings took place in consequence, at which the question of a proper and judicious reform was discussed. After these discussions, the Lord Chancellor called to his aid and assistance certain other gentlemen, and he caused to he discussed, in his presence, all the proposals made for a re form in Chancery.—(Sir E. Sugden—Name.) Mr. Duckworth and himself were applied to, and certainly no man understood the practice of Chancery better than Mr. Duckworth. The result was, that a plan of reform more extensive titan that of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir E. Sugden) was agreed upon. It was determined that there should be three Bills, and he (Mr. S.) prepared one, which was to be brought into the House immediately after last Christmas. In preparing that measure, he found it next to impossible to introduce a Bill which would interfere with the master's office without touching the others. It was, therefore, determined to draw up one Bill which should embrace all the offices. After he had prepares! that measure, the Lord Chancellor sugeested that a general Bill should be introduced. Such a Bill was prepared, and would very shortly be laid on the table of one of the Houses of Parliament. That Bill was ready some time ago, and the Lord Chancellor was very anxious to g e t it through Parliament, but the business of his court, and his labours in carrying the Reform Bill, had prevented him. He here wished to correct an erroneous statement which had got into almost every newspaper—namely, that he (Mr. Spence) had declared that he was himself the sole cause of this Bill not having been brought in. What he said was this—that the delay between the 10th end the 26th of July was attributable to him. The fact was, that when, on the 10th of July, he had an interview with the Lord Chancellor, that Noble and Learned Lord expressed a wish that a c'ause should be added for an " Appellate Court," which alteration being made, he would immedi ately introduce the Bill. But from that time to the present, he had not been able to draw up the clause. The reason was, because if it were necessary that the Chief Baron should form one of that Court, then it would also become necessary to remodel the whole of the offices of the Court of Exchequer. If a Bill should be presented to a I eformed Parliament on this subject, he was quite sure that it would be such a Bill as a reformed Parliament would be disposed to accept. Lord ALTHORP said, that the salaries of the Scotch Judges, which had been referred to, constituted a subject that was not comprised in the question now before the Committee. He had bee❑ given to understand that the general feeling in Scotland was, that the Judges were not underpaid there. At the same time he was ready to ad mit that the question was one which deserved the fullest consideration. He begged to say, that in fixing the amount of salary which lie proposed should be given to the Lord Chancellor, he had only followed the recommendation of the Finance Committee on salaries, and he begged to add, that he did not think that 5,0001. a year was too much as a retiring allowance fur such an officer as the Lord Chan cellor. The Bill which would be brought in in conse quence of the resolution which he would have to propose to the Committee on this subject, would be a bill solely for regulating the salary of the Lord Chancellor, and would not be a bill, as some seemed to suppose, tor effecting any alteration or reform in the Court of Chancery. Mr. D. W. HARVEY regretted that by the Bill which the Noble Lord would introduce on this subject there would he no reform effected in the Court of Chancery, af ter it had been so long promised. They had been often told by Ministers, when on the opposition side of the House, that the Court of Chancery was a curse to the country, and that it only required a change of administra tion to convert it into a blessing. That change of admi nistration had at last come, and yet he would venture to assert that the Court of Chancery never was in a worse condition than at the present moment.—(Hear, hear. ) It only required a firm mind and an honest intention to cure such a state of things.—(Hear, hear.) If half-a-dozen gentlemen acquainted with the practice of the Court were appointed for the purpose, at salaries of 1,200/. a-year, be was sure that in the course of one year they would devise such a reform in Chancery as would render it that, of which it was at present the very opposite, a court of sound equity. The Lord Chancellor undoubtedly should eet as large a salary as the Chief Justice of the King's Bench ; hut, for his part, be thought that 10,0001. a-year was too high a salary for any man in any situation in this country. The present Lord Chancellor had himself ex pressed an opinion in favour of the separation of that of fice from fhe office of Speaker of the Ifouse of Lords. He (Mr. Harvey) therefore expected soon to see that effected ; and as the Lord Chancellor's office would then become a permanent one, he was of opinion that he should not get a higher salary then than the Chief Justice of the King's Bench. The resolution was then put and agreed to. On the resolution for enabling his Majesty to grant 20,0001. out of the Consolidated Fund for the payment of the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland being read, Mr. SINCLAIR thought the office of Lord Lieutenant of Leland should be abolished, and that its duties should be transferred to the Secretary for the Home Department, as was the case in the instance of Scotland. Lord ALT HORP certainly thought that the time might come when it would he very desirable to place the Go vernment of Ireland precisely on the same footin g as the Government of Scotland; but at the present moment, when the state of Ireland was involved in such difficulties, it would be impossible for any inan of san e m i n d to propose that the office should be abolished. Mr. LEADER said, that the abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant of Irelan d, so far from bein g use f u l to the country, would, on the contrary, as far as I re l an d was concerned, to astill be a nat greater iobal calamity, as i t would promote absenteeism extent than it existed at pre sent. A great anxiety prevailed in Ir e l an d at present for a repeal of the Union, aid it was only necessary to pro— pose such a measure as this to make the feeling in favour of a repeal universal. The resolution was then agreed to. The following resolutions were then agreed to without any discussion :-Ist, to enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with a sum not exceeding 235.5101. to defray the salaries of his diplomatic servants at present employed at foreign courts, and of such as may he here after employed there ; 2dly, to enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with the sum of 85,2221., to pay those pentions which, previous to his Majesty's ac cession, were chargeable on the Civil Lists of England and Ireland, or the hereditary revenues of Scotland, and on the per cent. duties, and for which no provision had been made in the Civil List granted to his Majesty ; 3dly, to enable his Majesty to charge the Consolidated Fund with the sum of 20,309/., to pty those salaries and allowances which, previous to his accession, had been chargeable on the Civil Lists of England and Ireland, and the hereditary revenues of Scotland ; 4thly, to enable his Majesty to grant to grant to any person filling the office of Lord High Chancellor of England a contingent annui , y of 5,0001. a year to take effect on his resignation of, or removal from, such office ; and, sthly, a reso'utioa to enable his Ma jesty to pay out of the Consolidated Fund the several sa laries of the Judges of the Courts of law in Westminster hall, and of the Courts of law in Dublin. The House then resumed. Report to-morrow. BRIBERY ELECTION BILL. Lord J. RUSSELL moved the Order of the Day for going into Committee on this Bill. He expected the Re form Bill would do much to abolish the practice of bribery, by doing away with the wholesale bribery of rotten bo roughs. But he expected more from the strict investiga tion of these cases, than from the penalties, which were notoriously disregarded. He proposed, by this Bill, to extend the time for presenting petitions against a return on this account, from fourteen days to two years. He also wished to establish a better mode of carrying on the investigation. It would be lawful fur any person to make a complaint; and, if bribery and corruption were proved to exist, the Committee should be empowered to grant the complainants their costs. It might be said that this would increase the number of complaints; but he thought no man would incur the risk of 3 or 4,0001. costs, with out same foundation, He must repeat, he looked to the mural feeling which the Reform Bill was calculated to excite, as the best preventive of bribery, and as most likely to elevate the character of the constituency, and shed additional Jostle upon that House.—(Hear.) Mr, R, WASON intimated his intention of moving a clause iu Committee, to apply the fresh powers to be con ferred by the Bill, to the bribery which had occurred at Liverpool, and to which he had repeatedly called the at tention of the House; but which calls were treated with so much indifference, as would almost daunt any Member from taking up such a subject. He thought the provision in Lord Wynford's Bill, by which the party found guilty of bribery and corruption was condemerl to pay the expenses, was better than the provision in the Bill now before the House. He should move the insertion of a clause of that kind in this Bill. Sir R. VYVYAN objected to the extension of the pe • riod dialing which a petition might be presented against the return of any Member. Lord ALTHORP said that in his opinion the exten sion of the time of petitioning would have a tendency to check the existence of corruption ; because a candidate would be afraid to bribe, if he knew that for two years afterwards his seat was liable to be contested on that ac count. Mr. WILKS said that lie should propose a clause by which every Member, on taking his seat, should swear that he had not, either directly or indirectly, been guilty of bribery or corruption. Sir C. WETHERELL thought this late period of the Session was a very unlit time to bring forward proposi tions for new bribery laws. Ile objected to the monstrous extension of time during which a petition might be pre• sented. The effect of this Bill would be, that if a Member voted as his constituen-s thought tit for one year, but to- wards the end of the sec3nd year offended them, he might be harassed with a petition against his return. The in dependence of every Member would thus be sacrificed, and he would be reduced to an absolute state of vassalage. Tt:e words of the Bill were so vague, that they would embrace every possible or fanciful act of bribery. No man could ever know whether he was offending the laws or nut. In the usury laws, a man was relieved from their operation after the lapse of one year, and so it was with respect to many most important fiscal laws. Why should not this bribery law have the same limitation of time ? The Bill might be made an instrument of vindictive oppression, and he should, therefore, refuse his consent to the adoption of i Lord J. RUSSELL was not prejudiced in favour of the exact period of two years. What he wanted was, that after the actual payment of the money given as a bribe, sufficient time should be afforded to persons to make their complaints of bribery. With respect to the proposition to make Members take oaths that they had not recourse to bribery, he was ❑ot favourable to it. He thought they derived little advantage from oaths, whether taken by the elector or the Member. The qualification oath, for in stance, afforded hut little security its the matter to which it applied. Mr. GOULBURN said that, in his opinion, the exten sion of time might be made use of for the worst political purposes, and he much doubted whether the Bill would not have a greater effect in encouraging conspiracies than in discouraging bribery. Sir H. 1-IABDINdE considered that the Bill was ob- jectionable, as holding out a lure to suborners of evidence. He should prefer coming to the table and taking an oath that he had not been guilty of bribery, to being subjected to the evils which this Bill would hang over the head of every Member. The matter was worse on this account, for the accusing party need not be a voter—he might be an enemy of the sitting Member. Again, if the sitting Member successfully defended his seat, he was not to have the costs of his defence unless the complaint was pro nounced frivolous and vexatious, while the petitioner, if he unseated the Member, was to have his costs. This was not putting them on equal terms. He should oppose the Bill. Colonel SIBTHORPE complained that the Bill was so loose and indefinite, that acts of hospitality and charity might be interpreted into acts of I ribery. Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed that the present Bill imposed an oath on the electors, and why should not the representative be subjected to the same restraint ? Why should not the Member of Parliament, before he took his sea*, be called upon to swear that he has not, and that he will not, either directly or indirectly, by himself or his agents, be guilty of bribery? As the House well knew, there must be two parties to the crime of bribery, and surely the restraint and the purificatio❑ from the crime should not be confined to one of the parties. In fact, the ❑ecessity of taking such an oath at the table of that House must be a great relief to the Members themselves. For eaainp!e, when a candidate went down to a borough for which he had bee❑ returned before, and to the electors of which he had been accustomed to make many donations, and when, in consequence of that practice, lie came to be assailed by them with the usual importunities, how great would the relief be to him to be able to say that, how ever willing to renew his former liberality, the oath which he should have to take at the table of the House com pletely precluded a continuance of that ancient practice ? The Hon. Gentleman then concluded by moving—That it be an instruction to the Committee to insert an oath to be taken by Members at the table of the House, previous to taking their seats, to the effect, that they had not given or promised, or intended to give, directly or indirectly, by themselves or agents or friends, any benefit or pecuniary fee or reward to any elector of the place for which such Member was returned. The SPEAKER suggested that the proposition of the Hon. Member need not be in the form of an instruction ; it might be moved in the Committee. Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed, that if the House were prepared to adopt the oath, it would supersede seve ral of the clauses in the Bill. The SPEAKER replied, that the uses of the Com mittee would be at an end, if such matters as come within their jurisdiction were always to be moved as instructions. Mr. W. BROUGHAM, though most anxious to assist in perfecting any measure which bad for its object the pre vention of such a crime as bribery, yet feared that the pre sent Bill would lay Members open to repeated petitions for two years after their return. It was universally felt that to meet and defeat bribery at elections was almost impossible, otherwise than by general enactments levelled against the gross and direct offence. Thus, under the section to which he was then referring, a charitable gift of ss. to a poor voter might be construed into an act of bribery. For his part, he thought it would he much more desirable to take the oath at once than have such a penalty as that contained in the Bill hanging over his head for two years ; and yet even the oath was objectionable, for what conscientious man could undertake for his agents or friends? Mr. D. W. HARVEY was understood to acquiesce in the suggestion of the Speaker. Mr. H. GURNEY said, that all attempts to put down bribery must be more or less unsuccessful. So long as the situation of a Member of Parliament was desirable, so long would the motives which influenc.d mankind be brought into play. Mr. C. PELHAM declared that he never before heard so much said in favour of bribery. Mr. WARBURTON said, it was not by punishments after the offence was committed, but by means of preyei.- tion, that bribery should be met. In his opinion, voting by ballot was the only mode of putting an end to the mis chief. He should be glad to know what did this Bill do to prevent intimidation at elections ?—an offence much more dangerous to independence than even direct bribery. The House then resolved itself into a Committee. The first clause was agreed to without opposition. On the second clause, some discussion took place as to the propriety of Members taking an oath against bribery to the voters at the table. The clause was agreed to without division. Colonel SIBTHORPE protested against continuing the niscusion at that late hour of the night, and in the present state of the House. He moved that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the Gallant Gentle man was determined to use the means which the forms of the House allowed him, it was true that he might defeat the measure, but he protested against such a mode of pro. seeding. Sir IL HARDINGE observed, that the Noble Lord was anxious to escape from the responsibility which might attach to Government, by attributing the de'eat of the measure to the unfair proceedings of his opponents, when he well knew that it was impossible for him to carry the measure this Session. Lord J. RUSSELL, to avoid discussion at that late hour, was willing to postpone the discussion of all the clauses up to clause 10. It was suggested by several Hon. Members, that other clauses of the Bill involved definitions of bribery, to which the House ought not to pledge its assent. Lord J. RUSSELL said his great objects were the ex tension of the time for petitioning against the candidate accused, and the affording facilities for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the facts respecting the alleged bribery in the place of election. He believed, however, that he might attain his object by means of re solutions ; and if there were a decided opposition, he would of course feel himself compelled to give up the measure. He would prefer nevertheless, if possible, to effect his purpose by means of a Bill. After some desultory conversation on the probability of the Government being enabled to complete the measure during the present S.ssion, Lord J. RUSSELL stated, that from the opposition made to the various clauses of the Bill, it would be itn possible to carry it through this Session, and he should, therefore, move that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again. lie thought he could effect one of the main objects of the Bill, namely, the extension of the time for petitioning against a return, by a resolution of the House. With regard to the other important parts of the Bill, he would consider the point, and take a❑ early opportunity of stating whether he should press the remainder of the Bill or not. The House then resumed, and the Chairman obtained leave to sit again o❑ Wednesday next. The third reading of the Forgery Bill was postponed till to-morrow (this day). REGISTRAR OF THE COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. C. PELHAM, after a few observations, moved a resolution to the following effect :—" That it is the opi nion of this House that the emoluments of the Registrar of Affidavits in the Court of Chancery should be at the disposal of the Government, for the service of the State." Lord ALTIIORP said, that it was in the contempla tion of Government to abolish the off=ice; but before that could be done, some arrangement was necessary with re spect to the duties attached to it. It would have been un just to call on any one to take the office without the emo•• luments belonging to it ; but when it was considered that the fees accrued only i❑ term time, and that the long va cation was approach,ng, which would last almost as long as the office, the Hon. Gentleman who had been appointed would not be any gainer. Mr. C. PELIIIAM then withdrew his motion. Adjourned at Two o'clock. ROUSE OF LORDS, JuLi. 30. The Earl SHAFTESBURY sat as Speaker. Lord SEFTON presented two petitions, one from Liverpool, and another from another place, in favour of the new plan of education in Ireland. MESSAGE FROM TEIE COMMONS. Mr. BERNAL, Mr. SHEIL, Mr. SPENCE, Mr. RUTHN EN, and others, came up from the Commons with the Customs Duties' Bill, and five other Bills, which were severally read a first time. The Duke of WELLINGTON presented several peti tions from persons in Ireland, against the Irish Reform Bill. Lord RADNOR presented petitions from parishes in Cork and other pl ices against tithes ; also several in favour of the Irish Reform Bill ; also a petition in favour of the Factories' Bill, from a person in Norfolk. Lord LONGFORD presented a petition from West meath, against the Irish Reform Bill. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from the Mayor and Aldermen of the city of London, playing that certain roads might be struck out of the Night Police Bill. Referred to the Committee on the Bill. BOUNDARIES (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of the Duke of IlictimoND the above Bill was read a second time, and committed tor to-morrow. EMPLOYMENT OF LABOURERS BILL. The Duke of RICHMOND moved the second reading of this Bill. It had been found on many occasions that a whole parish, with the exception of a few individuals, agreed upon employing the poor in a particular manner during the winter, but their intentions were defeated by the opposition of one individual. The object of the Bill was to remove the evil, by making the resolutions of a large majority of the parish (three-fourths) binding upon all. The Bill was only to be in operation for six months, by which time it was hoped the Commissioners appointed by his Majesty to inquire into the Poor Laws would have made their report. The Marquis of SALISBURY thought it would be better to limit the operation of the Bill to three months. Lord \VYNFORD said he felt strong objections to this Bill, as likely to lead to jobbing. Such a Bill ought not to he brought in at so late a period of the Session. Lord TEYNHAM opposed the Bill. Lord RADNOR supported the Bill. The Duke of RICHMOND having said a few words in reply, the Bill was read a second time, and committed for Friday next. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool sack at a quarter to six. The Marquis of WESTAIEATII said he wished to ask a question of the Noble Lord opposite. The result of the late Kilkenny trials must have convinced his Majesty's Government, if they were not convinced of the fact before, how triumphant a position was occupied by those who in Ireland were determined to trample all law under foot. He did not mean to use the words Protestant or Catholic, but it must be evident that there was a party in Ireland de- termined to subvert all property and all order. He wished to know, therefore, whether it was the intention of h►s Majesty's Government to bring in any measure, or to take any steps, to put that party down. Lord MELBOURNE said that the subject was certainly most important, and the circumstance referred to by the Noble Lora conk! not fail to have attracted the deep atten tion of his Majesty's Government, but he was not prepared to say that they intended to propose any measure to Par liament in consequence. LAW REFORMS. The Earl of ELDON, alluding to the Bills at present in progress through Parliament, for making essential changes in the Law of Real Property, suggested to his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, who had in troduced them, whether it would not be expedient to refrain from proceeding any further with the Bills in the present session. The Bills proposed to make most exten sive and essential changes in the law. They were founded on the Reports of the Commissioners on the Law of Real Property, but recollecting what these reports were, and the great importance of the alterations, he thought that time ought to be given to consider the subject till the next session ; and his advice would be to every proprietor of land in Parliament, to take home with him an eminent lawyer and an able solicitor, in order to ascertain what was to become of his property under the provisions of these Bills, if they should pass into laws. The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend, that the subject of these Bills was one of great importance. He agreed that what his Noble and Learned Friend called the changes made by these Bills were considerable. These changes, however, he considered as great improvements, and be hoped that by the time his Noble and Learned Friend should have fully examined them, he also would be of opinion that they were great improve ment. The subject, no doubt, deserved the fullest consi deration, and his Noble and Learned Friend's saying that the Bills ought to be more fully considered, would w i t h him be a sufficient reason for assenting to his proposition. There was one of the Bills—that relating to Fines and Recoveries which he intended, at any rate, to have post poned, as an important alteration had been suggested which it might he desirable to adopt. But as his Nobl e end Learned Friend, of whose knowledge of the subject, and of whose experience, he was fully aware, had sug gested that the whole should stand over for fuller consi. deration, be agreed to drop the whole of the four Bills till the next session. IRISH REFORM HILL. Oa the motion of Lord MELBOURNE, the Irish Helot to Bia was read a third time. On the question that the Bill do pass, The Duke of WELLINGTON suggested some verbal amendments in the clause relative to freemen and free• holders in cities and boroughs, which were agreed to. The Earl of RODEN suggested art amendment to the effect, th a t b arr i sters f or h o ldi ng courts f or t h e registration of voters should be appointed by the judges in Ireland la the same manner as they were by the judges in England. Lord MELBOURNE objected to any amendment ?f that kind, on the ground that the state of Ireland was dif ferent from that of England, and that which was 0' pedient for England might not be expedient for Ireland. The Etrl of RODEN would pr o p ose an amen dment i n the clause that related to the oaths of voters, so as to con.- tinue these oaths exactly as they were fixed by the Act of 1829. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the only motive for passing the Bill as it at present stood was to save the Judges from imputations of party feeling in the selections of barristers which they might make. _ After a few words from the Elrl of Longford. the Marquis of Clanricarde, Lord Gosford, the Marquis Of Westmeath, the Earl of Harrowby, and the Duke of Rich mond, the House divided— For the or ginal motion For the amendment Majority l2 The Bill was then read a third time and passed. RUSSIAN DUTCH LOAN. Lord GODERICH, in moving the second reading of the Bill, proceeded to state the circumstances under which the obligation on the part of this country was contracted. The King of the Netherlands had stipulated to make some return to the Allies for the sacrifices they had made in his behalf, and the henefi.s he had received at their hands; and these, so far as payments in money were concerned, the Allies had agreed to hand over to his Imperial Majesty. The King of the Netherlands accordingly, by the treaty of 1815, to which Great Britain was a party, bound himself to pay to the house of Hope, in conjunction with this country, cer tain sums of money due to it by the Emperor of Rus sia ; and, likewise bound himself, in conjunction with this country, to make a series of payments to Russia, which was to cease in case the Belgian territories should be severed from or pass away from the dominion of the House of Orange. The word in the French was soustraites, but it had been translated by the words he had just used. But in addition to the treaty, there were two secret articles—by one of which it was provided, that if any portion of the Belgian territories was permanently severed or passed away from the dominion of Holland, an equivalent portion of the obligation to which this country was a party should cease and determine; and by a second article it was provided, that if any temporary severance should take place by the violence of an enemy, the par ment should not cease until the severance which had takett place should have continued for a period of twelve month'. The events, however, which took place in 183 0 altered some of the circumstances belonging to this arrangement. After these events it was undoubted!): true that the specific terms of the original contract did not strictly and legally apply, because a severance hid ac' tually taken place, and the Belgian provinces bad passel away from the dominion of the House of Orange. At the same time it was quite obvious that, in December, 1830 , nothing had occurred which should have prevented then' from paying the amount of the debt then due. He thought' too, that the same reasoning applied to the similar pay' tnent made in 1831. But, then, undoubtedly an event had afterwards taken place, which materially altered the state of affairs. They had then to consider how far the original ciicumstances of the treaty were in force, th e King of Belgium having been acknowledged by England and consequently a severance of the Belgian territories from Holland having de facto taken place. It was that felt, that at the end of twelve months, according to the literal construction of th e t reaty , hi s Britannic 11Iajesti would have been entitl e d t o c l a i m that the payment to Russia should cease. And this it was that led to the con' vention ef November 1831, in which this country under. took to continue the payment, although the legal condi tions of the original bargain had ceased to be binding upe° it. His Majesty's servants had felt, that in equity and good faith, they were bound to continue their payments under all the circumstances; they had, therefore, reconv mended that new obligation in November, 1831 ; but the Convention was not then ratified. Now, however, iC was ratified, and was consequently binding on both pet' ties ; and therefore his Majesty's Ministers came to Pat' hament with this Bill. The Noble Viscount thee moved the second reading of the Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON said the real question before their Lordships was, the propriety of all the Or ments up to the last period. He concurred in the state ' went made by the Noble Lord ; but he denied that up t 0 tte last moment Russia had a legal right to the payment s agreed upon under the treaty of 1815. In his opinion, i ° was doubtful if the right existed in December, 1830. A; that p er i o d b o th t h e Ki ng o f E ng l and and the Emperor ° f Russia hail agreed that B e l g i um s h ou ld b e i n d ependent of Holland ; and if it were to be so, surely it must have passed away according to the terms of the treaty from the dominion of Holland. Well, at a later period there earn°, to be this transaction—Prin ce L eopo ld was acknowledge d by this country as King of Belgium, and his Majesty ha d been even pleased to send an Ambassador to attend hut" which established the point beyond doubt or dispute, that Prince Leopold WriB, according to the law of England' King of Belgium. Now, then, the question was, did th e law of England enable Ministers to pay the money ? was to be decided in the first instance. He fully admitte d the claim of Russia ; but he maintained that the cas e which had arisen was an omitted case. The Act cone' quently did not and could not apply to it, and therefore Government could not have paid the money according t ° law.—(Cheers.) They might have been right to p a y the money. He would not dispute that ; but having so paid it; they ought to have come down to Parliament and asken, for a Bill of Indemnity.—(hear.) F or now he wou ld ask, if we were bound to pay, was not the King of the Netherlands equally bound to pay ? Did not both partie s stand precisely on the same ground ? But that Monaral' said it was an omitted case—that he was not bound by the treaty, and that he would not pay. It was impossible to con' sider the measure now brought forward, without advert' ing to the manner in which the system pursued by bi ° Majesty's Ministers was carried on, and what that systetn was. He understood that the King of the Netherland s was called on and menaced, in case of his not complying with that call, to sign a treaty for the separation of the greater part of his territories from the dominion of th e House of Orange, and for various arrangements which b e conceived woufd be most injurious to the interests of hi; ancient kingdom and of hi s f am il y; an d t h at t hi s bad come to pass, not in con s equ e nce of an y me di at i on ar arbitration which he himself asked for, but by the corn' island of five Sovereigns, imposed upon him contrary 1e his inclination, and, a s h e b e li eve d , to t h e i nterests o f hi , ; country and his family. N ow t hi s was one of our anc ien allies, in favour of who m we h a d expen d e d b loo d a °d treasure, that was thus treated by his Majesty's S e rvant' , —(Cheers.) if th e i r L or d s hi ps woul d look to the wbalf course of the transaction, they would see that the King the Netherlands was pressed to the signing of this treaty' so disagreeable to him, not by the Five Powers in the e- 0111 ' degree, but by two of th ose P owers, one of which or England. The other three, though they desired t'' e a execution of the treaty, yet adopted some reserve; a° while they wished his Majesty to sign, were desirous witnessing the modification of certain olijectionall' e points. Yet th e e th er two P owers were determined, r t would si em, to enforce the treaty as it stood, even at th e , expense of war.—(H e ar, h ear .) H e regre t te d to sa y that it was the Councils of this country which were most inv e mical to the King of the Netherlands.--(Hear.) By treaty it was provided that the King of Holla n d s hoal ; open the navigation of his canals in comm un i cat i on % vit a the Scheldt, the Meuse, and the Rhi ne . N ow he seen the details of the negociations (and if the Noble Lora would produce the documents, their Lordships would se e that what he would state was a fact) that France and the Powers of the Rhine felt no disposition to press the 1 04 of the Netherlands on a point which he considered oge e tial to his interests—..a Point, moreover, which was O r ,: rounded with great difficulty one in which Great Brita in had no interest, and from which even Belgium could d e ' live no benefit, because she could not navigate the Illti °6 without the permis s i on o f the Powers of the Rhine, „ less by paying the duties demanded front strangers. sides, there were other things demanded from the D ing which it was hard to grant, but which lie did not, neve r ' theless, refuse —such as the ceding of certain of the '' ir f cieut territories of his House, the conceding the right cc fishing, and other thing.. He was not disposed to ag ue to all the se thi ngs demanded, but he was willing to Into every conc ess i on cons i stent w i th his own reason and t j , independence of his country. But he was, notwithstan d , ing, to he forced to sign a treaty which was on all admitted to be übjectionahle—to need correction and re v h, ", Rion in th e fi rst i nstance, and then he was to mist to 4 chance o f h av i ng i t a f terwar d s mod ifi ed to meet his wi''!fr by the Powers which forced hitn to sign it. He Rub Obis red accordingly to their Lordships, that, connected as convention was with the system of policy pursued by lieu vernment in Europe, their Lordships should not be °a ere upon to decide upon it, as it were, blind-fold. They Iv o entitled to some explanation upon a subject so impar t _ a the The system acted on, he maintained, could only lead th is,, injury of British interests, and those of all our best al l ' o l ol , —( Hear, hear.) Look to what it had already led -- , l i o r to the state of confusion to which two of our ancient in the Peninsular were likely to be reduced.—(llear'sible Its the next place, let th e i r L or d s hi ps i mag i ne A Pc" _tib. case—that the Kiog of th e N e th er l an d s wou ld refuse