The Sun. — London, England, 1801-06-12 00:00:00

A•Dlvisiort wai then called for, when there ap. reprd for :qr. tiERNE-i's Motion against agreeing +v,il - 1, the Report of the committee - - 19 For agreeing, with the Report . 8o . . . Majority fOfthe'Report TTErzyEy said, he rose to request some ex. pl a►tat4 r trhy. thki adi- 7 6f *Mittlt'S of Supplies for the .service G.teat Britain, itnd of Ireland,islibulikit'e-?' • 111*. CORRY statcl-in explanation, that by the Articles of Union, .the proportion was br mect ac cording, to the rehttiyeAtbility 2f file two Countries, and not a i ecorlitat,to the:prceibe e:4"peod ‘ iture . of ei. 7ther, any pi7ticularinkt,ance'. He was prOceed_ ing . to,explaie, when „ rbe SPEAlo 7 P.obServ s e r d, that there sit nonhes. -Lion .before the liouse; upon which, after 'a ‘few word 4 between' l'ylessis . ,.(joakY and - TvetiNEY, the conVersatioriencle.d. • /IYr. N y_2llv9lY'7: - Vg7movdi that there be 1-wfure the s ilpuse an. ACCOtillt . of CvStom Duties on'Statnes, 'and . Mioble Ornaments, &c. %s, 11kb:being ordered to, be laitibefore the House, was immediately presented . .by the proper Officer from tbectattouas., • The Ovder of the 'Day -I; . eing . moved for the com rni trCent„ of .:Addison' s tAvorce'kill, t 7 - he S.49.E.eIkER "s:titl, he 'thought it proper for hinl to inform the Housei-that he had received a letter' from Mr.cHrriry Smith.„ 'who stated himself to / be , Mr.'Addison's 'Solicitor, and on Whom the Hpuse had deterrnined 'tha-t 'set v ice of - notice( of this Bill should be deemed 'good service on Mr. Adai • *. son, This ,let,ter statid in -substance, that Mr. Smith acknowledged having. received this notice, bot.thatMr. Addison was not now .in England, but was'.abroAl, 85 he understood, in a state of insol; vency;and that by means of poverty he was unable to retain Counsel. • .• The letter being red, a conversation ensued as to the.preptiety of roldering. the notice served on Mr. Smith, a .proper service, The. Avsoa Nr Y and Sot-loTrott, (iEN-Ea4l., Mr. SIMEON, deliver. ed their sentiments, after which it was determin ed that the servic' e on Mr. Smith should be deemed Guth lent. ',,bite Tiouse then went into . a Committee on the Bill, when Counsel was heard, and Witnesses were ex4rpined, dter which the , Bill was reported, and the''Report ordered tribe received to-morrow. ./?/;,•1()GE brought up the Report upon the .Matial Law' Bill ; flit Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-tnotrow; • INKNIVITY BILL. Oa Order of the Day for the thiik reading of the ir,dettiniry Bill, , expressed his hopes that the, far ther diseu . Ssitin of this. Bill would not be-prsscd for. ward at that time of the night, more particularly as ( there \v re se'veral Petitions of some, lentil in toided't9 be' presented against the Bill. L : I 4 Y also observed; that it was not usual to commence public business so late as be tween 8 and 9 o'clock, He himself had a Petition to • present against the Bill; another Hon. Gentle man,, lw understood, had three, another had five, and another one (a ki f gh).----Qentlemen might bet the subjea was serious. These Petiti orkri eomplaieed ofhardships, and felt themselves entitled to present their Petitions, and that the' HOU": Shonld consider them, He thought it was thither tit ,nor decent, that the House should deny itself the least pause to deliberate on the contents tut the" Petitions. _ • HeiWKESBURY said, lie should not, op rose' bringtng up the Petitions, but ~ at the same time he saw no good ' reason for putting of the third reading of the Bill. • d t ir W. AHLNER said, he had been obliged to Pttend his duty in that House since twelve o'clock at- noon ; other . Gentlemen were similarly eircum. stareed he thought this a good reason for' p,lsiponing the farther discussion of a measure which might detain them to a late hour. The Tetitions were then agreed to be brought tip. kir. Sit PR MAN, Mr. TlEkti EY, and Sir FRANC IS Bt) D presented several Petitions against the SHERIDAN sail, he wished to know how man y o f the r rsons who had been, formerly in et: , ;tody were now active in seditious prodlices ? The ,AITORN.EY GENERAL said, .'he did not that he eottli, consistently with his duty, APilwer that question. WHIZ' READ% said, te had a Petition to bring! up, but thOught the House had a right to , , knrno how many of :the persons who had been ;limited froth Prisbn were now in custody. The GHANCELLOR of the ~.VCIIEQUER that the question which the Hon. Gentleman fiz;(l proprisel was different from that which had been proposed by the Hon. Gentleman who had preceded biro, hut probithly one answer would suffice for both. If the 'Hon. Gentle Man 'Wished .to know the num. :ber of persons who had been recently apprehended, he certainly should not oppose a rhoriOn to that Oreett; gr i war said, -4 appeared to him that the queStions proposal by both 14:Honourable Friends *ere the tin:l7%. It was very true ) dut :illy : . Mem.- ton , ofFailiament might'move for the return of the pames.of those persons, but it was equally clear Ihai the return could not ; be made 'in time, because theylsre now in the thitd stage of the Bill, and r,ot h it fi nently they wanted the information immedi. I?% SJ. /.lA . Rl6pgvit.cd to the, Hon.- 'Mon*, 111:it it would be)Aoro: regular to state these points ppon the questi,,n, that the Bill be now read:4 third 40, th‘to on the motion ,Or4iringing c,p a R.:tition: ..that his ilea Frier i 3 l 4•1 no other opportetnit),' hut the present for dls. ci.,!.Llng the Question, bec;:use after. the gilt had i r t would be in win prinirc, ;nu ) jhe OPolbta safTivr - wD3 who lt-ad been 2pprcitelqicd. Mr. Ww ;1!',,, la supported Mr, Sn t DAN. SilLalcinz/ ilroogiiik up ;mother Petition, and ac a . in cx7relvAi, a wish to know tito number of per. snrs3 yAo ha( 4 , Teen r'ecntlyr liherated, and who were figain iu ewtotly , , In' L o tke iVe HE 0 E k said that the lion,: (3:entloo,', 1):14 pg; l its ciwstwq to ;he last stage of the Bill, though the Report upon which . he wishei-to obtain information, had been before, the House since the t 3th of April last, The Hon. Gentleman had eitpressed a wish to know, • whetber certain persons had been taken into custody ? But surely, if le . had been very anxious to, obtain -this' information, he would not have waited for two mont.Usdpie_he had asked a question, or made a „ motion upon the subbed. He had already stated, - that he had no objection to the `production of the list of the 'persons who had been apprehended ; but he,begged to he understood; that in so doing, it'was not la.etatte. there. Was any reason for doubting, in the least; the Report of the Committee: • The House , had.reposed their confidence in that Committee, and lie was sure, the. •House would concur with him in thinking they. had deserved the confidence which lfad been reposed :in them. But why did not the Hon. Gentle Man: attend' the .other stages of this Ain, and why had kdelayed this motion so.long, if it was. of such great importance ? *Upon these grounds he was willing to lay before the. House the list of the persons .who had been apprehended, tho' he.conld not - concur in. thinking with the Hon. Gentlemiti,lhat there was any ground .for putting off the third reading of the Bill. Mr. SHERIDAN, in reply said, that he had not attended the other stages of the• Bill from ill health. liewas not inclined to speak distespedftdly of the Committee , but he bad a right to suppose, and he did suppose, that they had been misled. The question . that had been asked by his Hon. Friend and himself was extremely simple, it was merely whether any of the persons who had been formerly in custody had been taken up since the late Suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus ? Mr. BR AGGE said, he did not think the Hon. Gentleman had.put this question upon its right foot ing ; the Hon. Gentleman had _ stated, that the question asked by him, and that asked by his Hon. Friend, were the same, when in fad they were very distind, for it might happen, that many persons who bad been in custody formerly, and had been liberated,' might have again renewed their former pradices, though Ministers might not have thought it necessary, or might not have been able to appre hend them.--It was very possible that persons might have gone out of the Country, and then they could. not have been apprehended, or else Govern. ment,. in mercy to them, might have 'been -inclined to grant . them some indulgence on account . of their former imprisonment. Air. GREY, replied at some length ; he should certainly support the, proposition of his Hon. Friend, unless it received a much more distind answer than it had hitherto done. He knew nothing of the per sons by whom thc Petitions had been presented, - but they, complained that they had .been calumniated, and they, had a right to have the sdbjed investi. He called upon the ATTORNEY GENERAL, who, froinhis official. situation, was bound to have acquired every' information upon this subjed, and certainly there could, be no impropriety in commu nicating the names of the people who had been ap prehended ; or he even would be satisfied if the Learned Gentleman would state, - upon his 'Own knowledge,. that any one person who had been re. ce.ntly liberated, had been again taken op for Sedi tious Pradices. Mr. LEIGH said,''that nothing he had heard from any of the Hon. Gentlemen on the other side in Any degree convinced him that the Bill before the House ought not to pass. His Majesty's late and present, Ministers had contended, and most suc cessfully, against one of the most formidable Con'_ spiracies that ever threatened any Country : under their Government this kingdom had been proteded from those calamities which had desolated almost the whole of Europe, and,, therefore, he considered themes entitled notonly to Indemnity, but to the approbation of their Countrymen. He was at a loss to conceive how it was necessary to know how many persons had been recently apprehended, when the, question was, whether the )ate Miniiters ought to be indemnified for the iiianner in which they had exercised their power ? Mr.' WHITBREAD said, that if the informa. tion which was asked was not given, he thought the third reading of this Bill should be delayed until that information was given. It had been said by the Hon. Member who had just spoken, that the ATTORNEY GENERAL was not the Confidential Officer of the Crown, and therefore was not the proper person of whom to ask for information ; ,now upon that the Learned Gentleman himself ad mitted that he possessed information, for when the ,question was asked of him, he said, it was a fad which he did not think it his duty to disclose, and indeed if he had not admitted it,, the House would have been aware that he did possess particular know ledge on these subjects, for he was the adviser of Ministers in these cases, and. Ministers acted un constitutionally if they did not cousult thc ATTOR NEY GENERAL incases like the present. Nothing of this sort should ever he proceeded in without the advice 'of the Law Officer of the Crown. This question was tlwreflire very fitly put to that learn ed,Gentkinan, and it was a question which ought to, have been answered ;' he said this the more con fidently, because he was assured the Report of the Committee ,to which such frequent reference was made, 'was defedive, and no wonder at it, for it appeared by the' number of , Petitions which bad been litely laid before the House, and the faas disclosed in them, that the Committee had been deluded ; and if they did not think so, the better way would be for Gentlemen on the other side•to answer the question immeiliately.—s.Besides this, it was manifest that the Committee had taken q number of 'things upon trust, as appeared by one Statemeni in the Report, which was, that the diSaf faded had hopes of assistance from the Soldiers, ow. inc to the hi4h price of provisions.—This was a mis. take, f'er the high price of provisions did not par tictdxly aired the Soldiers, they had them pearly the smile Rs when they were low in price, for, in. decd, they bad them in kind io 'a great measure.' As to the subidt which had been mentioned, and which was the most important consideration, he meant the 0'44 this measure must hate 'on the Constitutmn, be regarded it as one of those mea. sures which, when taken in the mass, would tom_ . plat the destrudion of the Constitution,----There were various ways of destroying a Constitution I by • the *ICS 4/ It l fore Pt foreign t'ocs; or by ' '' the irons of those, who he dared to _say- thottght themselves its friends, by measures which they thou calculated for its preserition, bur Which r- ' • Wist d most 'assuredly destroy it,---It decd, if it had ` ' not been for the Frereli Revolution, , these persqns never would have dreamt of .riving suth-power as this to Government, which they increased year "after year, until at last every thing like the principles of .- Publie Freedom teas gone. - This was— commenced, and for some sime carried on upon the idea that Ministers were responsible, but what was now becorne of that responsibility ? Here was a Bill which destroyed all idea of responsibility on the part of the Ministers of the Crown; and when once this precedent was established, there • never could be any such thing ; 'for a Minister, after this Bill was passed, would never have any responsibility attached to him ; he had nothing to do but to.say he aded in defence of the Constitution of his Country, and then he must be indemnified,' for there was in this case nothing but an assertion that Mini. stets had aeled for the ConstitutiOn of their Country: whereas, they had overturned its principles,,destroy- ed its vital part, and left behind the sh:fpe indeed, but which was nothing but a lifeless . corpse. For these considerations, and because the question which had been so repeatedly put, had not been answer ed, he should be under the • necessity of opposing, this 'Bill, and therefore he should' now move' . an Amendnient to the Question which was, leaving out the word " now," and inserting " Monday next.". The Question being put, Lord" UAWKESBURY said; he should vote for the word "'now," not because he thought that the Information was improper, provided a Motion was for it, but he saw nothing, in the. Information that laid any ground for delaying the reading of the Bill. He admitted that the information might be fairly. asked for, and he was willing to admit its necessity; but that was no reason frit stopping the Bill. The power of arresting persons, and keeping them awhile without bringing them to trial was a power which Parliament should watch ; it was right that Parliament should know the 'extent 'to which that power had been used, and Parliament had a right also to see! whether it had been fairly used ; but he saw no ground why the information should come by wiry of answer to a question in preference to the regular course of its coming before the House upon mo. tion, tiiiless, Indeed, Gentlemen preferred private information to publiedacument. With reSpea . to the manner in which the measure; now before the . House was opposed, it did not give him any surprize, , considering. how those Gentlemen who did oppose it, had anted in the whole course of the measure; which had been proposed for the safety of the State, which they had constantly 'opposed. The Alien i1i11,.41 which had been of such essential service to thiCoun• try, and other tneasures or a similar nature, had :beep opposed by those Gentlemen. He did not .blunie • these Gentlemen for the Harts they took ; they had,.; no doubt, .afted conscientiously, and he was ready to admit, that their feelings, judgments, and old.- nions, their • very minds, were framed differently from his—they could see im danger where htseould see nothing else, 'and they saw no security, where : he saw nothing - but safety.. The Han". Gentleman had said that, but for the French Revolution, those measures V.asold never have been proposed=--cer tainly not--for had it not been for the k s tench Re; volution, no , such measure would have been neces sary. But what was that Revolution in its prin.. ciples and its consequences ? Gentlemen on the other side of the HOUSe 'stated the French Revo. lotion as a measure having no effea'sati surround ing Nations. Those,-however, who judged of it by its fruits, saw that it had been the ground work of all the evils with which Europe had been affliaed for niany years, and therefore such persons had made it the (AT& of their jealousy-and watch. fulness, for the preservation of Legitimate Govern. ment, Order, Law, Morality, and Religion. He trusted that he felt as much ,attachment to the. ge. neral principles of Liberty as any man its that House, And also as much attachment to the prin. ' ciples of .the Constitution, whose true charaaer was that of being a wise system of moderation and me. diurn between Despotic Monarchy or Arbitrary Power on the one hand, .and Democratic Fury and Licentiousness on the other. N wasut there another point' , to which he wished to Ball the , attention of the CoMmittee, _and for which . our Constitution was most admirably adapted, namely, that it was adapted to remove .any evil that sur rounds it. The ctuestion then would be, what was the peculiar evil of the time ?--s-This, it had . been the. praaice -of Parliament to notice, and to provide against it. He was indeed afraid it would be found in the best histories we had of the affairs of this world, that -every Country and" every •Age had its evils, and its pectiliae evil.. It was the custom of Parliament to consissel rAVliat that evil was, and it was in the real diseoveiy of thats•evil . and the remedy, almost the iyhole''' qt . . what was: called State Policy , consisted. A"‘cetitury or -tWtS, ago, ; the evil •of this "_Country. : wis . very ,dif. ferent from what it was" at . • ; 7preslitt,; 'or • had been for the last eight or. .ten feasts. , :Tti come to times that we all 'read with i certain. degree , of interest .at this day,:..narnely s ' 'OA a .I ''opFsh . Pretender and the Abtittorii of 'ArNtriir . V. .Power tl - krearene4 the safety,' or at all eventasthokreedoin of this Country, the system •of ..the.P.artlasnent %ea direeted to prevent . , the 'triumph of iiii.AGi.rtrirslf' that evil; Itut towardt.the end of Abe liit centu4 ) : and especially a little kelvanced io_ this and indad about the commencement of the prescat , Riign.in particular, a danger :of a perfeftlynetv sorb became considerable, but not , alarmihg, uatil,ialglyss , -shere Was no person Who had observed the state.oft hisotin-- try at the beginning of the pitsrift Reign, ,wes . did: not see that the great eVilof•theAlak eras ScilititinAtt . at that time it did potrequite More than the alien foreement of the La's , / 'as it then stood • hurrroni . g . system' of false Philosophy, and airetled-- Atheism, it l')ecame'foirnidatile; 'and - more "than equal to the • established taws ,of,Eorope,_ ' At • last it. broke, out [ in Ft- 4) 0, under the . name-:of The French ReVals-. tion, and it v s gs , s W s i ess ik-a.. s'eitte.. the at-it - ration of that ancient Monarchy, WithlYthe tiverthraw- of morals, and p the destruCtion of Religion, and of every principle by which rni..nkind were held togetheand which had hitherto been held sacred. This great evil was not elways considered in its deer light. 'rile • rnischig was - not etreacti by a Moll (I:res.:led by a - - , , few Leaders, the ordina4s course of a :change .by popular Insurrection-; but .it was brought aboilt.- by a system of organization, and of all plans for the destruetion of establislunentss the very best that could be Contrived , . Such was the case with the French Revolution, and it was impossible that so great a change could have taken place there without its affeeting other Nations; All those who had but little,. to_lose and thought they had much,_ . to gain, became the immediate advocates of the' French Revolution ; and upon this principle there was, at. an early period of the French Itevolution„,. - adopted.in this Country and in Ireland, a system of hostility against Religion and Proeerty. This was. denied by Gentlemen on the other side for a consi.. &table time, and he did not know whether to this day the system'. as admitted to its full extent, for Gentlemen were much in the habit of saying there might be some discontented individuals, but that they were few in number and insignificant in power, and that they had no property, and not as the case was in the Rebellion 'of 17te, and 174 e. Now he would ask these Gentlemen, who would affeft to despise • the danger - BEM - ft there was no' Property, nor were there any eminent Leaders among the discontented , what they thought of the late Rebellion in Ireland ? whether they ever heard of one more dreadfel, and, yet there were no Leading Men of Charafter, pot of any great Property in it ; but that on, the con trary, the suppression of it was very melt ()wi n ,_g to the, zeal, spirit, and heroism of the Gentry of tu e Country. 'This Rebellion was the acacia SYiteln adopted at the French Revolution. But Gentlemen. . who saw nothing hut - good in that Revolution, Saw nothing in the Irish Rebellion different from and' other, where-aft it had this distinguishing mark, as an emanation of the French Revolution, that it Was carried on without the advantage of . PropertY or Names. It is not to treasonable and seditious pur poses alone, that of late. years this system of secret instruments, and of private concealed organization has been applied. .It has,elso been applied to trade, and many other objeas .and why has it gained so much ground ? Because it gives to numbers a power and influence, which, without it, numbers could never attain. It supplies the want of property, and of every other thing,, which, in former times conferred.. influence and power. With the knowledge then of the danger of this system, and of its existence among those who desire the destruction of the Constitur tion, with the example of Ireland in view, WO the knowledge of the Repoas of so many Secret ,COmmittees of ,the House, and of the authentic .DOcuments too, - which have been annexesi to, t e hem, he, thought it .iMpcissible than. the 800 .. 'could .hesitate as •to the passing of :whß, is the: nature of the Bill ? T o hose eemreck: on charges of treasonable, and seditious praaleelse frOortiTeotitOmof _their system, such as he had de scribed it, ,could be found out, and their scheme? discovered only from secret infOrination. 'This Bill. ~is trirrOretro§e; who' aced on these informations without obliging them to discover the Informers: which, were it done, would disable. theGoveronelf„, from watching the condua, and frustrating ~schemes e id h e e m t e i r s e of r l e t s e ri men: nrinct o G op e ri n n i t to l i e l,ne m s, e; ,rthc o a I t ) the thes other re lution dangerous - and . pernicious ; nothing in .the eo t ‘-u t i ii ‘ o spiracits have existed - in this Country ag ain 'p r i n .. Constitdtion and Government ; that Jacobin. I.l_ ciples ItAie never any alarming pogress ul meo i Country--then they - are right in opposing t his ;‘,.. • stre. But if the opinions, on which a large gn. a i ht city of the House have afted for the last r i ce gi, years be well founded, then this Bill, must he Ile sary for the continuance of the public security. bit has been said, that this Bill will put an end 'to all responsibility in the late Ministers ; but e° l , - tended, ,that it would leave their responsibilitYsy'.e the only constitutional sense of the word, as enT, as ever. The House would st il l retain ' their pow`,, to call them to an account for their condua. only goes to proteCt them from suits in Courtsozl Justice. • But the Public Good, and tire SecuritYb: the Constitution anti Government, are the e , it e-1 "of the Bill. He certainly would vote lot In original Motion. . • Ti Dr. LAWRENCE contended, that the SPec c : at of the Noble Lord was merely an in.itirsP u ' imo r tempt to divert the attention of the House . r or , the question before it, by eloquent but desu it i ., declamation respeCting the danger arising Ire° J ig cobin principles, as if the same danger apprehended front them now as in the earlier scig c of the French Revolution. .He expressed his '1)" tha n i eh probation of the Amendment. Mr. JOHNSTON.E wished the t his:l er : 6:ll.i -5 . 11 of the Bill to be put off till Mondays the ir sir . opportunity may be afforded to his relation lad, rULTENEY) to propose himself the ,4iiis m a me ‘yhich.on former night he had sign if ''' n ot ..intention, of . moving : • but if this delay I; le oc if. arced to, he would move the Amendment h i ' be. HeeXprit'sed'his,diiapprobation of the m easures , s cause* is a stronger one than even ank ithani been adopted when the danger was certaitu sea son, greater, and becauie he could not se e any h now that that danger is allowed to be n n4c w ho why it should be brought forward at presen t ' been it ! seas,never thought of when it mig ht ha more - necessary. Me. O G LE made a few observations °I I ' s°ll6 .. expressions used by the preceding SPeakf e ll ot her • pressed his ,rurprial.aao hear Gentlemen on , e6ing . aide of the House advance the positions. , P-' 1) t so Ireland,.. which they do, when he WOti f it i i te Ve s a it rtl o r tiOt l that they are - totally ignorant o oli o and internal police ; and supportedthe a,ed tv ie it grants indemnity to those who have s crucial amorrv, and because it tO'otliers imitate their example. .cfecintei Mr. i 'd4 0' R supported the Bill, an c.nt s hod`' that itought tlibe'judged, rio t s the 1 1944 dim of the Countiy, but byion d. whri the Habeas Corpus was fi rst susperia and will be an e ncouse Mt... Wk. SMITH coMplained t)f the Ina;_`.Y._ but ssurned by t h e. last Gentlemen presomptoous tone .aL. Gent lemen vi one, hi sfseaking.of the ignorance 01 e his side of the 'muse respeaing I P • Ireland. • , Mr. Oone expla ined. " Mr. EL LJ,ewv „wposted the Bill ° ll , , t i l o w ns Pr :l s e iple of consi stenc y with his former QP votes in the course of the \ear, -7