The Sun. — London, England, 1811-01-05 00:00:00

44 , -0,4 'I 0 • ) VI 0 ,;II • ':4 I #~ 1 , ~s~ N ~,, NuptEER 5716.1 13IPE11,LIL PARLIAMENT HOUSE OF PEERS. PRMAY, ace. 4. The Earls of C I alit NIDON and MORAvithe ' latter ns ' l ate° Stewat I of Castl e S tewart, too k the uaths . and their seats. The LOUD CHANULLoR (in . th e absence oft , ti e s Nolile It'riend the lesrl of Liverpool) ',resettle.. t the Documents ordered yestetday, 011 the motion of issues the Nettle Secretary ot Stete, touching, certain of Public Money. time, dur ing House then adjounied .for some the pleasure ; on its resuming,' and previous to ...ia_ Order of the Ile being Tniered upon, a cnnl b .t ve. lion took place on the tope: to which the' a u mentioned Papers referred, viZ• Earl $e ISSUES OF NIONE Y, e tree expressed his ekb to know what course or line ot pi - oceeding the Noble Secret are of Slate meant to lust p resented ? propose, reeitive to the Documeuts . , he Earl of Livetteocre observed, ..I.l.vii proposed only teat the. Papers should ieathat at reseal d ate table, and that they should be printed. He as Netted to the Vely important ,subject stliesorder of the Day, arid which eels at Pr e *" l " , icr w hich stood t the Itla aod preper topic for the attention of tt .1 t I i iii e na e, oe or de- Xarl 4 1:1i Ctit (lid not wish any:eepla tall hole the Noble 'Se. teeny, which might lead to . 4 , ll ' eu slion, or take off ihe attention of their I'7dd aL'ilt fr om the Order of Ale: Iliy. Pie only ss fished • tor some seeneral fatorthatiou as to the InaPner Which it was - P r opalled to ptoeeets from which Ziligh bo coilected whether a notice should be . Rivet). The Eel of rev t;sit'P. eer.- had - ne - objedtien to giv. ninfile (such a gelltrili statement H 8 . the Noble Earl. ed , lu wi4h to soLhitt Ihe subject to Ille con* .141vrit i I")11 ' 1 1 the ituust to-Mori ow. At the sante tinie..k. vi ' ll1(11 to etistain fr6in any thing that would ;en d to anticipao th e Tee col• proposed discussiou. tesPoodence which would appear ill the Papers, me:: IlleOted certain steps taken telatiVe to the issue nod 11„,„Pliealle Of a portio u of the plinth: tootleY• lbw.° ' ';9B arose out. of ei rcunisiane es ot peculiar difficulty, 111 which his Majesty'a Gosernment were placer. To subjeenable their Lordships to torm a juilgute"t of the tt teem.- , the correspottueuet; Was L e d before 1 IV ., lib r eseuct to the preceedinge upon the llub-leet' more pecu "eY we ek! have . to cutusider that .these hatly b ; tun to another quarter. Fr"9l. IL I ' c e, "-- teantatices, and the eitigettey ot the oseeissl°llo '''''' - "era te would feel it his thuy to submit a tiou which would go to euitiori, ee the isshe of resolu the routley---thie elite,' i nto v was -a Cliq111(1 (pcZOlOO Arum the : en dott 0 1 his liejestt's Guvetoment Oti th"lacc`i "l 11,1 en, Whttlier right ut ong...CHI this he was ' ei° ' decussioti wr eil an Where y time, butcirEuin" t delay. required , that some steps should 'he taken With ou Atter Eirl tew 'wo r d s from Earl SPENCER, The of Mottle observed, the', as far as -he ti,inderstoud the case. ,it was „„ e of peculiar exigelnl I WalVillg, nor,howev the (',emboli(); tejueteeteit con e e 1 NCI He had objeteloti to tae loveetit the '°' - leeiplateil Isy the Noble Secretary, 1. I a tacit 1"- *l4 I P a e. that if the questien should be considered us 0 4 . iy referring to the necessitits of the eub„l",e, seti-e ;TY,ice, as to the oegre e of erinetielity or culpa b i li ty, - Which eXhhed hi the conduct of Alituteers ou .I.t°t:C44()", it was a distinct coneideration, and its discussion might be kept separate from it. t h e t be Earl of 141/PA:punt said, he had admitted ti.lat, , Rol involved two eliatina ' question's, tha t ch \yes 4tting UT necessary for the public bet ciao, 'erelN the other, ho w ta r fus majesty's Government illtilitiable in their relevant conduct. What ee should ropose becess ary to-murrove. would lespeet the for -141" p corisideration, an d not involve the on a j u stificatilluded to. eti.ol telGttee vt t.t.R brioly observed, thet some differ -1 c,tn3Y atiee reseeetine the mode in which this S eoul(' he dome 4 ii , Lordships tiler) Their proceede to the Order of the Day, which being read, the onHse resolved into a COMtnittet oh the • tdrd W S I ATE OP ' 'l liE N ATION, • ALsiNottAst in he Chair— Th e Resolutions comm tunicated in the late coefe tete, w ee:ellen read The , . pall of Levetteone ehen rose, and`sald, 145 t Pefure he entered tegulariy upon the importeet sub ietit before the Committee, he begged leave to B,I Y ° few words npon a paint which appeared to him t_e,c,e'satY, ai a prattlinary consiklerat ion. tie %visit; *" it to he undeistoud, In elle fwit instance', anal 'Which he thought should be Led down a* a general trln eilde, In far as governing the debate, that what% !ter might be said, *haul& not, by any consteuce Nee be interpreted iis any •disrespeet or want ot per ,l4),,eal delicacy to the Illustrious Personage, whom :1111 .1.1. e, all agreed was the proper person to be hive:toed the. high fuel which formed su prominent It was ot their Lordship.' consideration that eight. this 011 pUbilt: gttilllidS, $ 1 111:1 on these alon, that ' Ms gteat nilesijoy, ifivolying t4CI many Important 'e,:/etinsi`teratiolhit, should be discussed. Ir was on great the rilLateal litinCiples only; thet a subject invoiving eln ifrcrogativea of the Crown should be to tiittittled% This principle pervaded all Perliamentary ...ec.,".ion i it was not the conduct or personal coo s2il4trationts of tee nuts idual who wore the Crown ttl.4e wilt reeularly the to ,1C under discussion ; it was cae.e°Thluct of those who were the att*isere of the thatv/ns laid respoesiele el!. tile ads ot Governtnent, a ina * .es the clue topic ender cotitlelotio It was on w r iln ° I riot euttlititution that the King could do re ..., oug ; lhe coodoe t of Ministers wall the Point . roue , ly Et; ihhuo i ar m uu t his grotiod 1).. -would. ask SA U DA I, be uniaerially held to apply., in the discussion of that night also, to the person, whoeVer he may be, in-. vested with the- royal authority ; it was a princh pie,. indeed, _which ought, generally to apply- to 'all Parliamentary discussion of 'the measures of Govern ment. Nothing of personal consideration to that exalted Personage, but as referring:to the conduct of those upon whose advice he acts.. This was a princi ple which he a ished to have s disiinctly understood in the outset ; and the system which had hit ()erre pre-. 'veiled in ad discussions in the legislature, he argeeo,- should be considered as prevailing on the present occasion, and that nothing which fell from Noble `. I.or.ts in freely discessing this important subjeci, should be construed into a want of delicacy, or fail ure in personal respect to the Illustrious Personage so closely connetted• with \ that .subject. Havieg premised this consideration, he begged leave to call the attentiou of their Lordships to the immediate subject uotiertheir consideration. The grounds of the present proceedings were similar to t tiose Which prevailed on. a former occasion of the like andaos chid). natute. There was no example whatevgr, he observed, in the history of the country; save in two instances, which may be regarded as specter, of usurpations, where the individual appointed to the head of the Go% ernmeat, as a Regent, was no!, in sortie way or other, limited or rove-tined. It was a general principle, persaditig the whole history of ahe country, that in all c .ses where, the States of the Realm acted upon the exigencies of the I,lloMent s time person upon whom . the government of, the country, as Regent, was conferred, 'Was circutn setibed or restrained. This was a principle • and practice, proceeding upon grounds' :et established upon principles founded in the natute and original principles of the Constitution. Upon this pi inciple their aecestois proceeded; it was founded in truth, and upon the principles of uniSersal justice, and /with a just regare to the inestimabiCConsiitution of •the country. :This principle of constitutiutial dis tinction between the situation of the King and that of .Regent *as every where apparent. The King . held all his rights and powers tor the-benvti! cat the people--the King, too, it should be considered, had peunanetit interest in these rights.and powers--a Regent, on the other hand, was a person called up. on Ed exercise these righis teinpoisarily for another a Regent had therefore only a temporary interest •in the powers vested in him. This constituted a lamad distinction—the difference between permanent tights and powers, amid temporary powers. It was in this view also to .be CUrlSidered ) that the permanent interest' attaching to the indiVidual' who wears the Crown aff'orded a considerable degree, of security against these rights and powers, while dos tem poraiy interest which the ft.-gent alone possessed, may be considered .as some degree of temptatare to the abuse of these powers : there was the dif. terenee tit security attended 'by use 'consideration of permaneot over. met of • temporary powers. The ie.ptaary powers of Regents always af forded, more or less, a sunjett of consti iumtonal jealousy. The principle upon which their ancestors acted, was, that while i hey provided tier the present, they were not forgetful of the future, and they always bore in mind, the consideration of the resumption of the legitimate authority of the .Sovereign.—.Upou these general' principles, every instance of regency had hitherto been founded in this. country, • and the same priticipie obtained whe-' they was temporarily unoccupied or, full, or where such measures originated in full Par:. liainents of King, Lords, and Commons.. While contending for this principle, he admitted, that a considerable difference had, at different times pre vailed as to the mode in which such pritteiples were cataied into execution; but whatever the anode was, whether by the inters eotien of a Coencil,'as a con trouling puwer, ur by the temporary suspension of the royal power, stilt the principle of restriCtion oh taineth Whatever degree of difficulty *night appear, from a view of the words " adaiintstering the Ge• veintuent of the country," , as appeatieg upon the Journals, he believed it was neVer yet intended that by such investiture, all the prerogatives of the Crown should be given to the regent. This observation, he more especially applied to the .vd Resolution, with.resped to the creation. of Peels, lie could not think . : such a power was meant to be conferred by these words. This principle guided the prece dent of 1788, whatever variation there might be, arose born the difference of circumstances in the two eases. fie eatainly thought that with regard to thepower in the question ut ‘Var and . Peace, and itt matters of at. similar nature, no.restitction or lerdiation would' ba expedient, aa.''Mpon these grounds the superintending coniroul of Parliament, us prescribed by the Constitution, was a sutileient .restraint. Any -farther restraints than those propos' cd would be, he thought, to embarrass Gozeromentr and tend to do away the practical 'good wising front the constitutional formation of the executive—the. same principle applied to all the great officers of the State, bnt, the whole should be arranged under the contemplation that the power was revocable by the King, an the assumption or re-assumption of his Royal. authority. In such a case as that before them, and where the limitations were intended but for a definite p6rtod, there did not exist the necessity for creating such a body ire the Siate, as a Council to Nutria the powers of the Regent. Hole, as in all the former cases, they were called upon to re gard the peculiar citcumstances of thecase. They should bear in mind, that the exercise of the powers so constituted should be temporary only, and also should not forget the probability that existed of the resumption tit that power by the lawful Sove reign. He observed, again, that the whole' sys tem now under consideration. proceeded, .as in the Case of me, upon two great leading tarts-e-ftrat, the persona Mt:opacity of the Sovereig to exer - efse hi s R o y a l fuctittns ; and, se co ndly, t ime proba bility which•exerWa, amid even the. noundent eXpee Nt.r..klti 5; 181 1. reign, sous to enable him to resume the exercise of those tensions. Upon these grounds, the whole should be considered, and upon every public ptin ciple it should lie held, that although some dials rent opinions as to modes miv obosin, still the ge neral principle upon which all,a6ch tuia3areh wire fotlhded k2s the satne, • The extent of the applica lieu may he different, but e in the.priecipheitself there, was no deference. Ie the preseet case wbate , er variation ebtaieed, it arose only out of the' different eireteustances.of the country. On these, he deem-. ed it onnece.sary tea eitier Into any detail, and on tars ground whatoesr %sr; ellen from the principle of the precedent of 17eis wok ptare, of course, pro ereited ; however, difference there rosy be in the term of lieetatinii, there'was none-in the temporary .principle, and regard veal had in Is ith tas the pat o:style tesemption ni power by his Metiesty. luokint to what was the decision of Parliament o the inipertabt_oece4on so often boded tu, lie could not avoid referring to thd.charaoers of those great meta who took part in these discussions. At the same time he must observe, that sonic of these ‘ rtiat charaCiers; in the course of these proceedings, were mast unjustly and nsost unnecessarily aspersed. :elk spoke in referenceso one more who Took the lead in the former proceedings, *hese ye s , potation, whose fame, whose credit In the country, was founded in no smalledegree upon the glorious pail he took in these very proceedings. Instead of the way in which 900 charaCters had been re ferred to, they should look upon their efforts with deference, and build upon the foundatiues they had laid, rather than upon new ideas, has tily or inconsiderately introduced. What degree of variation existed, proceeded, lie would repeat, upon the varied circumstances of the times; and in this view of the,case, the ( filiation of the re-e s rictions especially wits eelculatel With re ference to, tins pone, it would nut be improper to re-.. mind-thOr Lordships, that the great stand made in that House was upon th; geestion for the iosertion of the words ‘` for a time to be Limited ;" and it was upon these worth the question was then taken, and which sheeted the joint upoo which the stroogest difference of opcnion then existed. What he had said more particutarly-applied to the subjeS of the three 61st resolutions. Upon, the (meth, he thought it • unnecessary' than to trouts:o their Lordships with any observations ; but, upon the firth he had some remarks to make: lie aware, in coesidering ; this e of the difficulty aria ug from lie change:of circumstances is: the case; on this point, however, it seemed to be geeerally agreed, that the honseledd should be sepefated from the ;general odministrqQn at the GM:In:Iwo: of the Cliontry, tlod to ) he' iihiced in the h flds - of her Majz.sty. It wctu ti• Wax !hat e%Lry part of the'Houiehold attached to the sacre.t person Of his Majesty, and under these cireortibtanees. therefore, it tellowed that the House Should be pliced in the some hands. tie Witt aware of the otjeCtitant for merly mede to this arrangement, and to these the same reftnations applied. in this part of the sills jed he admitted there was only a choice of (Hai-. culties. It was, however, usool, to consider the Household establishillent :is a mere matter of state and as having,little or nothing to do with the do mestic comforts of the. Sovereigh—but that was by no means the case. Tlioogh, as was kno4e, the far greater number of individuals attached to the Royal Person, were appointed by the superien offi cers, yet the whole, as a system, tended mote or less to the domestic comforts, and convenieneics of his Majesty, and was not merely to be considuted 'as a matter of State.. He was at a loss to see how the system mild be separated from the Royal Per son, even considering that degree of dignity and. splendour whieh should attach to Majesiy, in the moments of, great personal In consider-- ing this important part at the resolutions, they shunt(' bear in mind what was provided in c4ite the Royal indisposition Shotild continue, and their , hest t Opps In that respeet net realized, but CeMemplatine the much wished for recovery, no alteration in this re spect should bee*maile. On this ground :his Lord ehip argued, and with much feeling contended, that no alteration should be made In the iesoletion as originally reamed ; hei had, with reference to sonal feeling, nut only to urge, bot to implore their Lordships to that effett—to prevent the possibility of their SoVereign, should he hsppily-be restored wilds subjeetswithin 'the ieterval, of seeing his testifies hold new-Modeiled, his taithtol servants detaehed from !tim e , his itomestte arr,ngetricnts br.ken in upon, and find hiinr.elt pia - red among a ;4i.trieii at strangers in his own lAnily. Iu tAery poini of view which he could take of it, be thought te e! , Lordships could not consistt lay agree to the flestitl. tioits sent up to them from the Common., aed lie trusted they woeld with hint see the I,ropriO.y of re storing it to the shape in witit.h it otigir.ady He disclaimed ag un in whatever lie s a id, more especially on this part of the Nubjea, any thing, which may be eoosidered ail ~hated by motives of jealousy aeamst the Illustrious Persons impli cated in this, part of the subject'. Her Majesty, be was confident, felteno totter .wish than that iu cotumon with all whom he addressed, tor the re covery of her Illustrious Consort, 'attended with all those circurnstanees which must be gratifying in the supremest degree:to her own isossonal f ee li n g s , and to the wishes and interests of the country at large. Towards his centeuston, the Noble Esrl dwelt with 'great avenue arid piehos ulna Leese topics,. and coujUred their L wdships not, in m is nivnt3 of tirvere peron,il . Sal •liott, to shandies the rights o f w ei r See s oreige e a Sot oleo w far , during , the leng s. arse Of hi, ioe - e and proseereosreien, ethever separated WS intt whit be, pincEs from t. 4 104.1 of Ito sehjecis at d hes co:eery, or never omitted to make - any'saeolsca xvhich - h thougm would tend to the I.4•bunpnr, snd th e prosperity of ;as, . . SIXPENCI?, FlALritikTgr. On the question being put on the first Rest). The Earl of Csat.isLa rose, and in a short speech expressed his disapprobatirin of the line of condutt pursued by Ministers ()it the present occasion. liC4 serrin to some ii:mtvrival allusions which we r '-' In3u4 on 'a „tanner night, he cotin , nded, 'mt : . rences to be dedu, thefeirom I.sktio d from the conclu,ions advanced by Noble Lards nn the Ministerial We , of t:.e • House arnt, in the course of his ahr t ervitions paid his tribute of sp. e huse, to 'some trominent parts in th e ministerial elivaaer'of MI% Pitt. The -Marquis of LANSDOWNg declared, that bit to be his duty to negative, amine, the prim ciple on which was hinged the propriety of imposio4 restrietions and 11MitatIMS on the icon. It was a clt-trille unknown to the tow, unatithori.e , t , try fns Constitution, and the. peaetice which it was built upon was daily becoming mare dangerous to the interest* of the State, and the security of the Constitution. he had not misread the book of that Constitution s it taught hi rr to believe that the crown and its pre rogatives were a trust granted fer the, go,nl of the people, and not for the personal benef r i of the K ng. That the powers vested in the Crown were ititeoderl to enable the Sovereign to dilicharge the funalont of, the kingly office for the aitiantage at the nation to ' which he ruled, . and chat those powers should be in proportion to tit,: chtlicidi les which he might have t 9 encounter in the doe discherge, of these tunctitnia. Surely then, if it was requisite at aoy time to leavt, those powers unrestro9ed and unlimited, the ditti culties of the present moment justly ant imperative. ly called for the West exercise of the legal pow era. If the exercise of those had forine,ly been loom! La be useful, what was there in the' nanny of our pre sent situation that shoeld make us consider it ;tot only as ti,elei4, but mischievous ? It St ere really Cu- rious to examine the nature of the proposs'd restric tions. It would lead us to belizve that what is use ful in a King; most be useless or miseLievrtes in a regenf-eand that, therefore, when a regency is to he established, you should suspend tt , e exercise of the prerogatives of the Crown in the hands of the regent. And, indeed, if your Loretibips' assent to the proposition of the Noble Srcreiery of State, What may • not be the inconvenien'oes and ditfieta, ties in which you may involve the regent ? 'You woold with mad from fur incanCe, the power of rewardiag merit, a poker which has teen swat onsly opheld in all en iliod nations ; but above ,41 in moharchies. The power to-reward merit was al• ways the mote grateful prerogative nt a Monarch. But now----when you would call upon the regent to ox. t with vigour all - the other duties mid, i num ion, o f the 50y,r.:1,2,u---when y.m wwld have hi call on es:ery tun it ideal fur his ,best csortions in his coma, try's cause—yott would St\lip hi n of the means ot rewarding those exertions, while' you word(' leer pore apoll M ena all that was harsh, ungracious, mei bevero in the discharge of the royal finictaiea. regent would have to execute every thing that sea ! : odious and ungrateful in the exercise of t he royal an thorhy, *hiie you would despoil - his authority and prerogative' of every thing flirt was winning, gra cious, and benign. it could not be a new oosetvrie tion to :their Loittihips that the British Constitnr fiat' consisted. of three: brandres, and that in - the reciprocal action and res...iniien of these three es. fates resulted the , whole beauty of she ediOee, The two flutisea werenow called upon to fill up the de• ticiency which has so unfortunately occurred in the third estate ; and if they should deprive it of its due weight and influence in the general. system, what must become of its equilibrium and mutual cnn tioul? The power of. creating Peers is one of the chief entnrouls of the Crown; and if you take it away, where is the boasted balance of our coosti tutional system ? Their Lordoh:ps were now indeed standing on he . wreck of the constitution, without a rudder to guide it amidst the rocks and shoals with which it was encompassed. The Noble Marquis next argued against the' proposed restrictions with regud to, his' Majesty's household. What particu4 lar service could they now he engaged in with is, gerd to his Majesty ? They were tor'the present in incapable of rendering any service to the King. BA it has been said that on his Majesty's' recovery, lila complete recovery ; he hoped,. it could be paintol to hi s Mai -sty to dud that those who noel usually been ,u t his royal p,:rson should 'have becri removed. Surely this was paying no very flatterilia uncut to the royal mind, What would ii insinuate .but this, that nti his Majesty's recovery, itl4t , -...att of anxiously' itimicing what (Liniment 113%2 b.'eu that-rod by the Constitution, what interme diate evils might have befallen the coemey, leis Ma 4 jasty's solieitude Woold he wholly et gto tied hy splines respee!ing the Officers of his litti this I.l,Plna not all. These restrictions, it secms, were to List but a year,'and then Pat liaincut might see whether they should net be fotther proh.o 4 ed. What a state was this, then, to which you w gold degrade the. Royal Authority'! You.woold ob4,erve in what manuer, during the course of the year, the Regent had acted in his administration olipubiie fairs, qua then you would call him agotl ter yPgr :bar, examine why the restrictions in Lis , hority s , lutiki not be 'bather continued, or why liS,preroe gativis might: not be further curtailed: tor wuvre can you be said to stop, after what has already he .a proposed ? These Was really-, something in the; prttpusitJoii trobre ()it:is-Lordship', 'There was no livsitation in giving to the.fle g o i t th e trimigant:ol (lit. navy, of the artti , and or all the cOltltUelCi,ii Telatt : tasial the cou n t r - - y Vier thetr, it seems, he may exercise the most,utthwited audio ; city. but oVcr t‘t.:l hOUtiVhold he must 11.1“, I)14 1(111, trend. The FL -11 t may tnak. peace Cr v it, but ista trittSl not 1114,c• o.:!erti or arrant sinecures, pot only do Atiniiters stem to levlany alum). 4 , r to the various p . ,cedents that have t addul..ea itt svport at dais doctrine, and ot these met§ures, thuit