The Sun. — London, England, 1853-04-09 00:00:00

at par by Parliament. Although lam by no means bold enough to assert that under no circumstances would you be able to effect this redemption, yet I am strongly of opinion that in no very long time, having effected a reduction in I the capital of the debt, with a smaller amount of revenue, it i, it would be practicable to effect still farther reductions this portion of the debt. We also propose that Exchequer bonds, be open to the parties, in lieu of the o ption to take Exchequer bonds, or of the power to take the New Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at the rate of 821. 10s. against each 1001. Three per Cent. Stock—that it shall be open to the holders of such stock to take, for each 1001.,1101. of the New Two and-a-Half per Cent. Some objections are, I know , en tertained to this particular feature of the plan, upon which I venture to request the attention of the committee. I will state, as impartially and as fairly as I can, the reasons why it appears to me extremely desirable that this feature should be retained in the plan. I may state that her Ma jesty's Government purpose effectively to limit the extent to which this option can be acted upon. The objection urged against this portion of the proposal is that, in order to reduce the annual charge, we are going to increase the capital of the debt. Now let us carefully weigh this ob jection, for, in my opinion, it is an objection to which con siderable force attaches. But it is not true that we arc going to increase the capital of the debt for posterity, in order to reduce the present annual charge. The proposi tion submitted is not one to reduce the interest to 21 per cent. for 40 years, in order that, at the end of that period, the right to demand 3 per cent. might arise on the part of the holders of the stock on the increased capital. It is proposed to secure for ever, and absolutely to posterity, a reduction of 1 per cent. upon the annual charge. This will place posterity under no disadvantage whatever, rela tively to the circumstances tinder which we now place our selves. It is also objected that we are going to add to the capital of the debt as much as we are going to save in the interest during 40 years. If that were true, it would not be conclusive against it, becaw e there would still be a per manent saving after the expiration of the 40 years upon the annual charge of the debt. But it is not true that the addition to the capital is equal to the saving in the reduc tion of the annual charge, for if any person will take the slightest trouble to calculate, he will find that the present value of 101. in 1894 is far below the present value of an annuity of ss. a-year for 40 years. (Hear.) If, then, you balance the alternatives properly, the one against the other, the presumption is, that the increase of the debt by 10 per cent. by the creation of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock will be more than redeemed by the immediate diminution in the capital of the debt by the creation of the New Three-and-a-Half per Cent Stock. If you are skilful in the operation, you offer to the stockholder two alterna tives, as nearly as possible alike—as nearly alike, in fact, as two peas. If you give the Two-and-a -Half per Cent. Stock such a rate of interest as will enable • him to deter mine which' of the two stocks he will take—if you do that, the presumption is you will have as much Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock taken as the Three per Cent. An HON. MEMBER—No, no. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —Then the hon. gentleman does not cast the balance rightly. (A laugh.) Does the hon. gentleman mean to say that the mere notion of a nominal increase in the capital of the debt would give the capitalist a right to demand hig her than fair price, according It to the annual intere st for his capital this The annual i n t eres t he has a right to deman d . is a balan ce b e t ween t wo a lternatives. Ido not deny at that the stockholder looks to the capital as well as to the annual interest, but he also looks to the annual interest as well as to the capital; and therefore I say it is your duty to balance the two, one against the other, in such a way that there shall be no great commercial advantage attending one as compared 1 w ith the other. - If you do that, then , 1 say , the presumption is that the stocks may not be unequally taken. en HON. MEMBER here matte some observation which was not audible in the gallery. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The hon ourable gentleman refers probably to a former operation, when the Four per Cents. were converted into Three-and a-Half per Cents. The terms then offered included an alternative somewhat of this kind. The persons holding Four per Cent. annuities were offered two alternatives. One was 701. stock at 5 per cent., which would have yielded interest at the rate of 31. 10s. per cent. ; and the other, if I mistake not, was stock at par, at 31. 10s. per cent. But everybody chose the 31. 10s. stock at par to the Five per Cent. Stock at 70/. ; that is, everybody chose 1001. at 31. 10s. per cent. rather than 701. at 5/ per cent., because there was no difference in the rate of interest. If, while the 51. per cent. yielded only 31. 10s., the other yielded 31. 155., of course they would have chosen the higher rate. But that is not the:case here. The man who chooses the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock under our plan will choose an annuity of 21. 15s. for a limited period, while the man who chooses the Three per Cent. Stock will choose an an nuity of V. 17s. 9d. But I beg the house to recollect that this operation is quite distinct from those of the loans made during the war. I look back upon the period when those loans were made with regret, and I have groaned inwardly at their consequences, under which we are now suffering. The practice of borrowing at 3 per cent. during the war, when the natural rate of interest was Si. and 51. lOs , placed the country in the predi camen t o f secur i ng the insignificant. advantage of a lower rate of interest by a few shillings per cent., but it entailed upon us a permanent debt, the amount of which, I think it is clear, if a wiser system had been pursued, we might have reduced before this time, in capi tal and in the annual charge, by something like from 100,000,0001. to 200,000,000/. (Hear, hear.) I do not mean to blame those who conducted these operations. They were placed in circumstances of difficulty that we cannot now appreciate ; but certainly the system entailed an ex ceedingly heavy charge upon posterity, for it left to pos terity a debt almost irredeemable for the sake of a very small temporary advantage. (Hear, hear.) But surely those operations are not to be compared with a case of this kind, the whole basis of which is an advantage to the present period and to posterity also. (Hear,' hear.) lam not going to sacrifice the interests of posterity; on the con trary, I am promoting the advantage of posterity by the course lam proposing to the committee. It may, perhaps, be said, " You might do that by taking another course." Certainly, that is a question open to discussion and to ar gument. Still the fact is that by this proposal the house will secure to posterity an absolute reduction upon the an nual charge of the debt. But I wish the committee to un derstand—and I urge this as a plea on behalf of my pro position—that I freely assent to the general doctrine that is not desirable to increase the nominal capital of the debt. (Hear.) All I ask you is this, that you will, Ido not say indulgently, for it is not a matter of indulgence, but that you will fairly and candidly look at the case as it stands, and consider the great object of public policy that we have in view. The Government may be right or it may be wrong in any proposal of this kind—and I will state by and by more distinctly how the proposal will be guarded— but the proposal unquestionably rests upon a broad ground. (Hear.) I have said that the great object which her Ma jesty's Government had in view was to establish, if it be possible, an irredeemable public debt, which will bear a respectable price in the market, and bearing an interest of not more than 24 per cent. It is for that purpose we propose to include these among the various forms of , the conversionable Three per Cent. Stock. Perhaps you will tell me, " You may secure that by means of Exchequer bonds." I should be delighted to do that. I I trust we may ; but we may find that we cannot bring these bonds into credit and character, unless we give a power of redemption to the holders. That may be very well, but any operation of that kind, involving redemption at a par ticular time, when you might be in difficulty or in war, must necessarily be a limited operation, and it does not lay the ground for that which we want to see—namely, the creation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. irredeemable public stock. (Hear.) Give us this public stock, and then I say we shall have made solid ground where now is only morass ; then may tread where we could not before ; then we shall have a fixed point down to which we can work ; and we shall have something by which to direct our opera tions in future with certainty, where all now is compara tively speculation and suspense. If, I will add, the com mittee think it is a great. public object to establish firmly this Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock in such a manner as shall make it an ordinary subject of commercial dealing, then I do hope they will not exclude this part of the pro position. (Hear.) Now I come to a point to which lam most anxious to call the attention of the committee. It has been pointed out to us that as the resolutions stood as first printed it would have been open to all the holders of Three per Cent. Stock to effect their conversion into this Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. Though that was not a probable, it was at least a supposable case that such would be the effect. If 500,000,0001. of Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock were to be reduced into Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, a reduction in the annual charge would be effected which would be most gratifying to me. It would relieve the finances of the country to a very great extent— to the amount, I think, of about 1,500,0001. a-year. That would be a most gratifying circumstance, but I certainly was not sanguine enough to anticipate it. But it was also pointed out that this resolution would entail an increase upon the nominal capital of the debt to the extent of 50,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) Sir, lat once defer to that objection. I do not think any such increase ought to be allowed. (Hear.) It is not necessary for the purpose we have in view, which is to lay the foundation of a two-and a-half per cent. stock. For great and essential purposes I ask you to allow me to create this stock; but it is not ne cessary we should allow it to be created to such an extent as it was felt it might be by the terms included in the re solutions. Here I must make an apology to the house. The draft of this plan was framed with a somewhat diffe rent effect ; but in drawing out the resolutions—a most difficult operation, even if done by the most skilful per sons, in order to conform to the rules of the house, and cover the extent of the object—l must admit they took a form which, though I did not perceive so clearly as I do now, left them open to the just -objection that they might go to the whole capital of the Three per Cent. debt, and thus entail much difficulty. But it is understood, I admit at once, that that ought not to be the case—(hear)—and I propose to meet the difficulty by an alteration that has been introduced into the reprint of thereeelutions. If the committee will have the kindness to turn to the reprint of the resolutions they will find that the amount to which this Two -and-a-Half per Cent. Stock may be'created under the authority of the act to be founded upon the resolutions is limited to 30,000,0001. Some additions to that amount may take place from the compulsory commutation of the South Sea Company to go into that.how ever,t b y the 10th of these I am now concerned to say is, that° resolutions, standsesolations, as it now , the utmost possible Creation of Cont. Stock is 30,000,000/ this new Two-and-a-Half per just apprehensions which i propose, then, to meet the uponh w ay h e ie b b ee h n av e e xp b re ee s n sec t l hns subject, by the limitations in intro duced— Mr. duced— Mr. RICARDO—HowI s the stock to be apportioned The CHANCELLOR of the EX CI I EQUER—By prio rity. It is all to be done by entrieseem. the books at the made in the books Bank. When entries shall have been parties exer at the Bank, including the names O l f Twe he cising an option in favour of the be Cent. Stock to the amount of 30, power will cease. Thus the apportionme a then tho 000,634,,1-a-Ilalf per ill by priority, and it will be effected, I think, any difficulty. Tho effect of the chan ge will 1e withoutthat the utmost nominal addition that can tak e place to the capital of the national debt under the powers which I as k you thus to confer will be something more than 3 ,000,010/. What, then, I would put to the committee is, that a nomi nal addition to the capital of the debt, compared with the present annual saving, is a very small price to pay for the attainment of such an object—for the object which the Go vernment have in view, namely, the laying of the foundation of an irredeemable and permanent Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. (Hear.) I know no other way in which we can with certainty attain the same object. If we could obtain it by the issue of Exchequer bonds, certainly I should prefer it; but, seeing we cannot make sure of it in that manner, I venture to hope the proposal will have not only the candid, but, I will venture to say, the favourable consideration of the committee. (Hear.) I have thus, at a length very much greater than I anticipated, gone through the details of this proposition. I have endeavoured to keep close to the subject. I thank the house for its kindness. I know that upon a questi on of this natu re the attempt to be con cise might have led me into obscurity, and have made that which professed to be an explanation utterly unintelligible But I have now come to the end of is . explanatio f n e , and all I have, to say more may be comprised an a very w. sem tencee. With,regar4 to the discretion which I ask you to confide to the Government, that discretion may be limited at any stage in the progress of the bill that will be founded upon the resolutions. Perhaps it would be objectionable to introduce new powers to the Government in the progress of the bill ; but a limitation of their powers could not be objectionable at any of its stages. There is likewise another subject, which, though isolated, I may refer to here. It is one of great importance. It is the subject of the large amount of stock now hold by the Accountant-General in Chancery and the Accountant-General in Bankruptcy. I no not purpose by these resolutions that the Accountant- General in Chancery or the Accountant-General in Bank ruptcy shall have the power of exercising the option of com mutation excepting as to the limited amount of minor stock which we are going to redeem. As to the great stocks it is not proposed to give them the power of exercising the option. The main reason for this I will state. There is great reason to suppose—l will not say it is an absolute conclusion on the part of her Majesty's Government—but there is a great reason to suppose that more extensive changes may be introduced into the law with regard to the large amount of money in their hands. The system at pre sent appears to be of a most defective character. No doubt, as far as regards the good faith upon which that large pro perty is held, it is unassailable; but in its nature it is fluc tuating capital with a fixed interest. Now, the interest of the trust funds which are in Chan c e r y i s of comparatively inferior consideration; but the integrity of the capital is a matter of very great importance. It is extremely hard that the property of parties who arc debarred by legal difficulties from its enjoyment should be subject to changes—great and vital changes perhaps—from circumstances entirely inde pendent of their wills ; and I have great hope that it may be in the power of Government, but I cannot venture to commit them to the subject, to produce a measure that will place the great amount of these trust funds upon a basis more satisfactory to the persons on whose behoof and for whose ultimate benefit it is held. For these reasons Ido not propose to give the power of commutation of the great stocks now held by these two officers, the Accountant- General of the Court of Chancery and the Accountant- General of the Court of Bankruptcy. I have now only just to mention what are the alterations that have been intro duced into the resolutions— Mr. RU2lE—Tell us what will be the saving under your plan ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—MY hon. friend the member for Montrose has just asked me a mos t t h e i n l a p m o r o t a u amount o q f u e t s h t e i o n an . u H a l e s ts i n a g s e d L m a e u g w h hat wi ll be er. do not know what the precise saving will be. I have not ventured to put this plan to the house as a schemeinvolvi involv ing a saving ; but if it succeed s the amount of saving will be It cannot be but that there must be some n o a amount t o h u e n m of o u s a n vn t seeing g . I thatwould i t rather not not dependm a make upon c aua l c ci c t u i m o stances that we can control, and which are beyond our knowledge. If you take 30,000,0001. of Exchequer bonds and put them out at 2i per cent., the saving upon them, as compared with a 3 per cent. stock, would be for the first ten years 175,0001., and after the first ten years 150,0001 That would be the amount upon these bonds ' • but I by no means limit myself to that. What I wish to secure upon that framework is, that when Government shall come back to Parliament and render an account of the success of this operation, it shall be in your power to say whethe r it s h a ll be extended or not. Now the changes in Ithe resolutions are these. The third resolution, as it stands now, is a new resolution, but the objeot of it is not to make any substan tial change. It is only to make sure that the resolution shall convey to Parliament the powers I have endeavoured to describe in the course of my explanations, and with re gard to which a doubt had been raised whether the language of the second resolution, if it stood alone, was sufficient to convey those powers. Th e e i g hth reso l u tion, again, is a new resolution, but this resolution I believe I may say is, in the strictest sense, merely a formal resolu tion. It is likewise to prevent legal doubts, and it implies no substantial alteration whatever. The most important change in the resolution is that which the right honourable gentleman opposite with great rapidity discovered. It is contained in the 10th resolution. The committee will see that the effect of it is simply this that it limits the com mutation which may be made of the Consolidated Three per Cent. Annuities—that is of the great stocks—into two and-a-half per cent. stock to the sum of 30,000,0001. as a maximum. It leaves it entirely free to go on with the Three-and-a-Half per Cents. I wish the committee to un derstand that. So far as concerns the Government Ido not know any objection to limit the creation of the Three and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but there is no danger attend ing its creation. There is no fear of too much ;it is only of too little. We do not therefore propose to attach any limit upon that ; but we do propose to fix this limit upon the possible creation of the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock in the resolutions. This is the only change affecting the general structure of the plan that has been made in the second edition of the resolutions ; and there is no other change whatever of any important character. The com mittee will now be in .a condition to judge whether the change is of that character that would make it desirable for them to take further time for its consideration, or whether they would choose to proceed at the present mo ment. I, for my part, have discharged the duty which was incumbent upon me. In conclusion, I have only to thank the committee for the great attention and patience with which they have'listened to me, and to add that I shall be most happy, if I have failed in any point to make clear the intentions of the Government, to answer any questions which any honourable member may wish to put to me, (Cheers.) The right hon. gentleman then resumed his seat. On the first resolution being read, Mr. lIUME said the plan which the right hon. gentle man had just introduced as au experiment should be tried. As it first appeared upon the original resolutions ho was afraid it would have proved a failure ; but as it had now been explained, and explained with so much clearness and ability that no hon. member could fail to comprehend it, he believed it would succeed. (Hear, hear.) There was a large class of persons holding property in the funds who disliked the trouble of the present system of transferring stock, and who did not like to pay brokerage. To these the change explained by the right hon. gentleman would be very acceptable, whilst the plan generally would prove a public convenience. He suggested that it might be de sirable to devise some method whereby the)dividends could be paid in the large provincial towns. The change might affect the interests of London bankers and agents, but it would be an immense facility and give great satisfaction to the community at large. It was only right that the stock exchanges of towns like Birmingham, Manchester, Liver pool and Glasgow, and other places, now that communica tion was so easy and rapid, by means of the electric tele graph, should be placed upon the same footing as that of London. Mr. WILLIAMS said the plan involved an increase of 3,000,0001. to the amount of the national debt ; and to this he objected on principle. This system had been the bane of the financial policy of this country. From the year 1775, the commencement of the American war, down to the year 1816, the termination of the continental war, there had been an addition to the principal of the national debt of no less than 589,000,0001. But how much of that amount had been received? Why, only 417,000,0001. Thus, by abandoning the sound principle of having 1001. sterling for 100/. Consols, the nation had been saddled with 171,000,0001. of debt more than it ought to be, Again, when the right hon. baronet the President of the Board of Control (Sir Charles Wood), as Chancellor of the ExChe pier, raised the loan of 8,000,0001. for the relief of the people of Ireland, a large amount was added in the same manner to the national debt. Such additions amounted to a declaration that we never intended to pay it. In his opinion the right hon. gentleman had commenced dealing with the debt too soon. If he had delayed any scheme for reducing the interest for twelve months from this period, the operation would probably then have been attended with advantage. Mr. HENLEY had no great objection to that part of the scheme which proposed to deal with the South Sea Stocks, nor to the proposal for creating a new species of pub lic security, called Exchequer bonds; but he did not see any great public advantage in creating new stock markets in different parts of the country. He could not conceive how any great difference of prices could exist between London and any other town, when by means of the electric telegraph to which the hon. member for Montrose had referred, the prices on the London Stock Exchange were conveyed in five minutes from one part of 1 the kingdom to the other. That shut out the notion com pletely of any difference of prices in different parts of the country. (Hear. hear.) With respect to the Exchequer bonds he agreed perfectly with the right hon. the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, that securities ofthat nature passing from hand to hand the same as Exchequer bills, would be a considerable convenience to the public, (Hear, hear.) But the right hon. gentleman had not informed the com mittee, nor did the resolutions inform them, in what amount these bills were to be issued. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The amount stated is 30,000,0001. Mr. HENLEY : The right hon. gentleman did not say whether they were to bel,ooo/. bonds, or 5,000/. bonds or in in what amo un t s th e y wou ld b e issued. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—The bonds will be 100/. and upwards. Mr. HENLEY : If the bonds were issued in 1001. and upwards, that would very much increase the convenience which he admitted such securities would afford to the pub lic. (Hear, hear.) One part of the scheme struck him as requiring some consideration. Although the right hon. gentleman took the limit of 30,000,000/. he evidently con templated, if this operation should be successful, to con tinue to issue, at some part of the present year or of a sub sequent year, these securities. It was not usual to entrust the Government with the power of acting on the Money Market by means of issuing securities of this nature to a certain degree without the control of Parliament. It was said that the issue could not exceed a certain amount ; but to give the minister of the day the power to act on the market to the extent of 30,000,000/. without control, was not a course of proceeding which Parliament was in the habit of taking, and he should bo sorry to give an opinion on the matter off hand. He was the last to suppose that any Minister would make an improper use of powers en trusted to him, but the great point was, not only to know that he would not do it, but to relieve him from the pos sibility of being suspected of doing it. This was only to be the beginning of important changes, and therefore it was a very strong reason why the committee should not be asked to agree to the resolutions without having had time to examine them. Another valid reason for some delay, was the fact that these resolutions had assumed a very dif ferent shape from that in which they were first presented. The right honourable gentlemen had admitted the inconve nience of adding to the capital of the national debt. The right honourable gentleman had spoken in language much mere forcible than he could use of the great wrong of so doing. That conviction seemed to have sprung up within the last twenty-four or forty-eight hours, because unques tiorably these formal resolutions did not indicate anything which would lead a human being to suppose that the right honourable gentleman had any such indisposition to add to the capital of the national debt. He now said it would be an abomination to increase it to the extent of 50 millions, but be had not the least objection to increase it by 3 millions, that he might have the pleasure of founding a Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentle maeti io s sn a b i ,, cl ll; tb tl l ilt a et d tl emmoient haveei t_wmoul onlya l l e ilgbhteht this little aggravated intitil mil a great national feat." Hear, h te e hm a e r n r Hslheoalfslh3omu haveli d l li o i kn per formedlike —i Softoccrke,a to know what was Two -and - d Ha a l L p i e t r te C d eun tO be objeitcfitniigotnteahobelillseed?3o°ln millions the lblieo ri ni right hno done yearhon hgeenteloeumliaing owaons nwoitthsantds• i;,evuough to think that next - and-llalf per Cent. was the usa of Stock without adding to the debt, what , e li l e o l u c . g n h u t l making a beginning ? And if he was w sanguine believe that next year or the year afterrar create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock without B shilling to the capital of the debt, then he was m a( sti n n g g a very bad bargain to offer ti c ommu t e on any other ter a ms. (Hear hear.) There was anoth er po i n t , t h ough only s. a slight one—upon what plea of ju s ti ce was it proposed to • shut out from this commutation trustees having funds I invested by order of the Court of Chancery ? He thought, generally speaking, all parties should be allowed to take advantage of this scheme, if they so chose, within a limited period, He doubted the justice of shutting out THE SUN, LOjNDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1853. any one, and the right hon. gentleman had assigned no other two. The second proposal woull give him for his reason for the exclusion pointed out, except that he had 1001., 1101. 21 per cent stock, redeemable at 1101. at the some scheme in the clouds for dealing with all sums end of 40 years, with 21. 15s. per annum meantime. At in the Court of Chancery. Was the house to take that as the end of 40 years he would be possessed of a capital an indication that the Chancellor of the Exchequer.in- of 1101. (The Chancellor of the Exchequer intimated tended to lay hands upon it? (Hear, hear.) At all dissent.) He was to have "the sum of 1101. in a new events it was an unus ua l course, and hardly just to make stock of 2i per cent. annuities." He would be possessed an exception ; and that was another reason why the house lof 1101. capital. (A Member.-" Stock.") A debt should not be asked to come to a conclusion to-night. of 1101. would be due to him from the Govesn• With regard to the general scheme, what effect it would ment as much as the 1001. was now due. (A member have on the other securities of the country-whether the -" No.") Really if he had any organs of understanding, Exchequer bonds would circulate . at a greater premium he (Sir F. Kelly) took it so ; the Government could not than Exchequer bills-were questions very difficult to deter- relieve itself from the debt without paying 1101. (Hear, mine until the test of experience had been applied. He hear.) And was there anything visionary- was it taking thought the issue of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock an exaggerated view of the possibilities of the future to was a very important change, and that the several other suppose, looking to the influx of gold-that at the end of changes proposed were of such moment that it was not the 40 years it might be to the interest of the Government fair of the Government to ask the house to cone to a reso- to pay off even a 24 per cent. stock by payment of 1101. ? lution before they had been well considered, especially as (Hear, hear.) What was the next of these proposals? To he did not anticipate any public inconvenience would re- give an Exchequer bond for 1001., with V. 15s. interest suit from a few hours' delay. (Hear, hear.) per annum interest for 10 years, or some less period that Mr. E. ELLICE took an entirely different view from the Government might determine, and 21. 10s. for the rest the right 'honourable gentleman who had just sat down, of the 40 years ; and at the end of the 40 years this person with regard to the advantage or disadvantage of delay in would have his stock, in the shape of a Treasury bond of passing this resolution. It must not be forgotten that 1001. In the one case he would have 21. 15s. for 40 years, this proposition exceeded by far in amount every attempt and then be the holder of 1101. stock ; and in the other made by any previous finance minister of this country to case he would have 21. 15s. for 10 years, and 2/. 10s. for deal with the national debt, and as it laid the foundation t h e n ex t 30, and th e n be tho holder of only 105/. stock, of a greater scheme hereafter, it ought to be viewed with liable to be paid off at that amount : would the hon. gen the greatest indulgence by the house, and the greatest pos. tleman pretend that it was anything but a delusion to say sible facilities ought to be voluntarily given to carry out here was an option ? What man in his senses would pause the object of his right honourable friend the Chancellor of between the two? "(Hear.) 'What was the remaining pro the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) He confessed that as the posal ? To give for the 101/. 81/. 10s., 31 per cent. stock resolutions originally stood he could not have supported guaranteed against reduction for 40 years, and yielding that part which added to the capital of the debt, but that therefore 21. 17s. 9d. for 40 years, but liable then to be had now been modified. The right honourable gentleman paid off at 821. 10s., Icing 271. less than if he took 1101. opposite complained that his right hon. friend (the Chan- per cents., producing 2/. 15s. What was the compensation cellor of the Exchequer) only dealt with part of the debt. for his being entitled to-271. 10s. less under this pioposal He did not know how any Chancellor of the Exchequer than under the other at the end of 40 years ? Just 2s. 9d. could deal with the whole. (Hear, hear.) He should more interest per annum during thu 40 years. Was 2s. 9d. never have thought it could have entered into the contem- a-year for 40 years' purchase-money for 271.105. at the end plation of any member of that house, that the Chancellor of that time ? (Hear.) Would it represent even in per of the Exchequer would have come down and proposed the petuity more than 5/. or 6/. ? (Hear.) Were these two commutation of 500,000,0001. of debt, either by reducing proposals as like as two peas? a (Hear.) Thi s was sub the interest to 21 per cent., or offering to pay off ject of which those of his p ro f ess i on rarely presumed to the holders of the stock. (Hear.) The only possible address the house ; but it b a d appeared to him (Sir F. as principle on which the operation of reducing the debt Kelly) not so much a m a tt er o f fi nancial policy a simple could be conducted was that proposed by the Chancellor of question of arithmetic-(hear)-and ho believed he had the Exchequer. He had always thought it desirable for not used too strong a term when he said it was a delusion this country to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, to hold this out as an option presenting three equiva as had been done in Holland, which should find favour lents, or something approaching to three equivalents. with the public, and afford the means of ultimately re- Was it not absolutely certain that any one would ducine the interest on the whale debt to that sum. The accept the second proposal and reject the others? right ° honourable gentleman said it was proposed to give hear.) With the change which had now been(Hear,e great discretion to the Government. He should like to in the resolutions, was it fair topress the o made to know how the scheme could be carried into effect without pronounce on them that night? If anything house it. So far from throwing obstacles in the way, he should render the question more important, hemight - almost have expected the right hon. gentleman would have done say more alarming in its aspect, - it , was that the Go everything in his power to facilitate an object which must vernment were seeking the sanction of the house to be of such benefit and advantage to the country. (Hear.) that which was admitted to be an entirely new opera- The right hon. gentleman made objection to the holding tion-(hear)-unexampled in its extent-(hear)-and if out advantages to the stockholders. He did not say there ever there was a time when the house should proceed to had ever been a case analogous to the present, but when- the consideration of such measures with caution and the ever Exchequer bills had been funded the advantage was utmost deliberation, it was when we were not in a settled given to the parties subscribing, and the same inducement and permanent financial condition, but when the finances must be given, unless they were prepared to deal with the of this and every country were in a state of transition, whole debt. With respect to the funds of the Court of owing to the unprecedented influx of gold-(hear)-a time Chancery, for the last thirty years, ever s i nce th e peace, h e th a t s h ou ld b e th e very last when a Government should had been astonished that in this country more attention seek to tie up the hands of the State for a period of no less was not paid to the interests of property, and that no pro- than 40 years. (Hear.) position had been made to place those funds on a more Mr.WILSON observed that the hon. and learned gentle reasonable footing. Nothing made a case so clear as an il- man could not conceive that a man with-1001. to invest lustration. He recollected the executors of the late Duke would accept the alternative of an Exchequer bond. He of Queensberry were called upon to invest upwards of a might see that a fallacy must lurk in his statement, because million of money in the funds, in consequence of suits be- it was found as a fact that with Consols at par there were ing instituted in the Court of Chancery against them. abundance of people ready to invest in Exchequer-bills, not When the stock was purchased it was at 52-53, and when at 21. 155., but at 11.10 s. per cent. The hon. and learned it was sold, at 96-97 ; so the result was the residuary gentleman overlooked the character of the security. Stock, legatee made a profit of three, or four, or five hundred redeemable only at the option of the Government, was thousand pounds. That was a very good bargain ; but • hedged round by a great number of inconveniences and suppose to-morrow he was required to invest for an infant costs in its transmission, while an Exchequer bill passed a large sum in stock at 100, who could tell that the con- from hand to hand. The hon. and learned gentleman over verse of the transaction would not take place, and he looked, therefore, in regard to one of the securities compared, might have to sell at 52 or 53 that which he invested at an advantage which would give these Exchequer bonds an 100. Such a thing might occur. We had now been forty enormous value in the eyes of bankers and insurance years at peace, and he hoped we should be at peace forty offices, and those who had temporary investments to make. years longer-at least as long as he lived-but suddenly Of so great value was that convenience, when stated in we might find ourselves involved in war, and that contin- pounds, shillings, and pence, that the Government had gency justified his right hon. friend in hazarding a great been able at the very moment the Bank of England was deal, and in making this great experiment to obtain the raising its rate of interest, and Consols were below par, to public advantage. To revert again to the Court of Chan- convert 9,000,0001. sterling of Exchequer-bills, bearing lute eery : the court would not allow infants' property to be rest at 24 per cent., into Exchequer-bills bearing interest dealt with in any other way than to be invested an the at 14 per cent. Referring to the hon. and learned gentle funds, and was it fit that the property of infants and other man's remark on an increase of the capital of the public persons which was obliged to be invested in the funds debt, he begged to say that he entirely concurred in the should be constantly exposed to these risks, and that no observation that nothing presented the management of the attempt should be made to devise some scheme to give public debt and of public affairs in so lamentable an as security to capital ? He tendered his thanks to his right pect as the improvident mode in which the debt was con hon. friend for having been the first to grapple with this tracted in the last century. In point of principle he en subject. (Hear, hear.) He entreated the house to give tirely concurred in thinking it undesirable, without some every possible facility. It was, of course, a great expert- decided advantage, to add to the nominal amount of the ment. The right hon. gentleman did not profess to intro- debt. Posterity, however, would not be disadvantaged by duce it in any other light than to enable him to take ad- the arrangement which was proposed. It was proposed to vantage of a favourable moment to attempt a reduction of limit the 3 per cents. to be dealt with to 30,000,0001. In _ the interest of the national debt. He hived it would be successful, and he could not understand the grounds on which, if they gave the Government their confidence, and wished to enable them to go on with their measure, they should withhold their assent to the resolution. What good could result from postponing it for a day ? It would only keep the public mind. in a state of excitement. (Hear, hear.) They must deal with a case of this kind by repos ing confidence in the Government, and giving them every facility, or they had better at once reject it. The public ought not, - upon a subject of this importance, to be kept in doubt and uncertainty. He, therefore, entreated the house to go on with an experiment to which everybody in that house wished success, and which was of such great in terest to the public. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON was quite ready to ac quiesce in the recommendation which had just been made to them to give the question before them a fair, candid, and impartial consideration. He admitted the immense magnitude of the question as regarded the public interest. Most certainly during the period he had the honour of sitting in that house—now upwards of 33 years—he had never yet hoard from a Minister of the Crown so bold a measure in reference to the national debt. (Hear, hear.) But, while he admitted the magnitude of the question, and while he was anxious to give it a fair and candid con sideration, he must still ask whether it was not right that members should have at least 24 hours to consider it ; for it should be recollected that the first edition of the resolu- tions was only delivered yesterday morning, and the second edition had only reached his hands since the house had met ? If the scheme was a wise one, why not give members time to consider it ? (Hear, hear.) The scheme contained matter of great and serious importance. He had long thought that the South Sea debt should have been dealt with before now. It occasioned a charge to the ' country for which there was no sufficient justification. He admitted also that it was desirable to create a 2i per cent. stock, but the question was, whether the operation could not be effected at a more favourable period than the present—at a period when the scheme would be sure to be carried into effect and a saving effected to the publiC at large, instead of putting it forward as a mere experiment, as the right hon. gentleman himself admitted it to be. For himself, he (Mr. Alderman Thompson) did not think that the present was the best time for the operation. It appeared to him also, from the little consideration he had been able to give the subject, that the right hon. gentle man's resolutions contained, principles which acted in op position to each other. The right hon. gentleman took credit to himself for having created a great saving of in terest on Exchequer bills. But he (Mr. Alderman Thomp son) would ask any gentleman connected with the mone tary interests] of the counry whether it was possible for the right honourable gentleman to keep 18,000,0001. of Ex chequer bills at 14 , per cent. in floating circulation with Exchequer bonds at 2:j per cent. ? (Hear, hear.) The one was utterly inconsistent with the other. He did not deny that, to a certain extent, the Exchequer bills would be taken, because they were the most convenient security which individuals could hold for temporary and particular objects • but if the right hon. gentleman expected that he would keep 18,000,0001. of them in circulation at 1A per cent. with his Exchequer bonds at 21 per cent. he would find himself mistaken. Besides, if he paid 1 per cent. more upon Exchequer bonds than upon Exchequer bills, would not that occasion a loss to the country? (Hear.) In connection with the proposed bonds there was one thing which he viewed with considerable alarm, and that was with respect to the conditions on which they were issued. He should be quite indisposed to grant to any Government whatever the power of issuing bonds on such a condition as that of redeeming them when they thought fit. His own opinion was that they should be redeemable at some fixed and positive period, as he believed all foreign bonds were. It might indeed be very inconvenient to have bonds to the extent of 20,000,0004. or 30,000,0001. falling due all at once, at a particular period. Still that difficulty had been met by other countries, and why not in ours? (Hear, hear.) On the whole, he was quite willing to show indul gence on this important question, but he did think the country would expect that the resolutions should be de layed at least till next week, to allow time to consider their effect. stead of 3 Per cent. that 7 would be taken at 2 per cent. There was a saving of per cent. on that transaction at once, of 75,0001. per annum. Supposing they did not consume the saving, but made it go as a payment to au additional amount of capital, the effect would be that the 75,0001. per annum saved for forty years would amount to 3,000,000/. ; so that, in a saving of per cent. without interest, the total amount would be exactly equivalent to the rate at which the national debt would be increased. [Mr. Hume.—" YQU eat your cake."] He had got a sum to fund for the benefit of posterity 40 years hence, being exactly equivalent to the amount which he added to the nominal amount of the debt. But he had got more. He had got compound interest on this annual sum of 75,000,0001. for 40 years. He should not enter further on the subject, as ho should have it in his power to discuss it on future opportunities. Mr. SPOONER thought the argument of the hon. mem ber for Westbury was unintelligible, except in so far as it showed that the result of the proposed operation would be to leave the country exactly in the same position in which it was at present. With respect to the alterations in two of the reso lutions, those alterations had not been:so explained by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to be understood. The plan in the original resolutions, it is now said, was not the plan; but it was incumbent on the right hon. gentleman to have well considered the resolutions in the first instance. Agreeing that delay was dangerous, he (Mr. Spooner) thought that the attempt should not be made to proceed with a speed incompatible with the requirements of jus tice; and justice could not be done if full consideration were not given to the subject. He was by no means pre pared to reject the whole plan. Much of it he was in clined to approve ; but if he were asked that night to say "Ay" or "No," he should say "No," because he would not commit himself at the moment to a proposition which was open to the objections that had been stated. Mr. JOHN M'GREGOR supported the proposition made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The benefit of dealing as proposed with Treasury bonds to the amount of 30,000,0001. would extend to every country of Europe. Every banking establishing would avail itself of them, and they would be found most convenient for investment. The real question was, whether you could reduce the annual amount to be paid as interest for the public debt. He was convinced that out of doors the resolutions would give the utmost satisfaction, and that the sooner the committee assented to them the better. Mr. WILKINSON was understood to express his con currence in some of the objections stated by the hon. and learned member for East Suffolk. Considering the dif ference of opinion which existed with respect to portions of the comprehensive scheme proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, be thought that some delay should take place to give an opportunity for examining the proposition to more advantage. Mr. LAING hoped the right hon. gentleman the Chan cellor of the Exchequer would not accede to the invitations which had been thrown out. The question had been fully discussed out of doors, and the explanations given to-night of the amended resolution removed the only serious ob jection that had been felt to a proposal which, upon the whole, had been well received. Objections were at first felt to a scheme which appeared likely to increase the national debt by 50,000,000/. but that argament appeared to him to have been greatly overstated. Men of business now fully understood the proposal, and he trusted It would be agreed to by the house. (Hear.) The question was then put, that the first resolution b• agreed fo. Mr. DISRAELI hoped the committee would hear from. the Chancellor of the Exchequer that it was not his inten tion to proceed any further to night. Lord J. RUSSELL (lid not think it would be at all con venient that the committee should not go on to affirm the resolutions to-night. It seemed of great importance, now that the resolutions had been so much discussed, that the committee should so far decide upon the resolutions as to permit the bill to be brought in, and that was the proposi tion now before the house. The question was, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having fully and clearly stated his plans, should be permitted to bring in his bill. (Hear.) It would be very disadvantageous to postpone the decision of that question until another evenin, A - )st- Mr. J. B. SMITH confessed that he had felt great alarm on reading the first edition of the resolutions of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer. The second edition he had not yet seen ' • but he understood, from what had f a ll en f rom the right hon. gentleman, that his original proposition had been so far modified as that he now proposed to add only 30,000,0001. instead of 50,000,0001., to the nominal capital of the national debt, though he still adhered to the bonus of 10 per cent. for the purpose of establishing a 2, 1 , per cent. stock, giving thereby a bonus of 3,000,0001. for that pur pose. He thought that hon. members should inquire, before assenting to a resolution of this kind, whether the right hon. gentleman intended to follow it up by the crea tion of a larger amount of stock than 30,000,000/. ; be cause, if not, where was the use of passing the resolutions? (Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that it would be better to wait, and take their chance of a more favourable oppor tunity of reducing the interest of the national debt. He (Mr. Smith) was disposed to think with the hon. alderman that there was great doubt whether Exchequer bonds at 26 per cent. interest and Exchequer bills at 1 would cir culate together. (Hear.) He agreed that it was desirable to take a little more time to consider the important subject before the house, and not decide upon it that night. (Hear, hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer might do well to consider whether the time might not have arrived when some effort should be made to reduce our debt ; whether any scheme was practicable for paying off a portion of it. He might perhaps some day be induced to ask for a com mittee toinquire into the practicability of that. If that object could be effected it would afford great facilities for reducing the interest. Sir F. KELLY wished also to submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the house could with any pro priety be asked to proceed to a decision upon this vast and important question that night. (Hear, hear.) The effect of the resolutions was to deal immediately with about 10,000,0001. of the national debt, and possibly with nearly 500,000,0001. Gentlemen, on coming down to the house, found that no less important a change had been made in the resolutions than a limitation of that portion of the debt with which it was proposed to deal to 30,000,000/. ; and this change must be considered with respect to its effect upon the option proposed to be given to the fundholder. What was the option given to him ? Unless he (Sir F. Kelly) entirely misapprehended the resolutions, the appa rent option was absolutely nugatory, and neither more nor less than a pure and mere delusion. Contrasting the pro posal to convert 1001. into 1101. 21 per cent. with the other two modes of conversion proposed, no man in his senses could hesitate for a moment which he could accept ; and the idea of putting this forward to the country as if it were really a question of equivalents, the one as like to the other (as the right hon. gentleman said) as two peas—the ebeldoubt three wt of t n h e e r idea of putting forward these proposals as in any way equal as approaching to each other in advantage and disadvan tage, was a pure delusion. (Hear, hear.) As had been said there was nothing like a plain illustration :—then suppose proposals benefito)la converting to 1 : s o S a i t ot f l i i t ew t h country considerable S te hSitsmo inkg portion thee troenbs setd o te f or termedant hcg whichc e epi nationaleal et. Nlol debt into 3A per cent. stock on the terms here stated ; but it was a mockery to pretend that any one would dream of ateePtin,that proposal if he coull. obtain either of the -Eg. Pas , ponement might have taken place, if hon. gentlemen who had doubts and objections to the plan had said that they did not wish to discuss it, and had asked for delay. But the contrary of that course had been pursued. Every gentleman who felt objections to the plan had stated them in. the strongest manner. They had gone through every thing that could be said against it—(" No, no," f rom th e Opposition benches")—and some of the objections had been stated with a great deal of bitterness, which was not usually displayed on such questions. If hon. gentleman had pro posed in the first instance to postpone the discussion, he should have had no objection, but he now saw very great objections to delay. Mr. DISRAELI said, the bitterness to which the noble lord had adverted must have been displayed when ho went to dinner, for he had heard none of it. (A laugh.) The question then arose on which side of the house it had been manifested, for hon. members had opposed the scheme on both sides of the house, and he must assume that the bit terness had not been displayed by any of his friends. He did not wish to enter into a lengthened discussion to night, and he admitted there was an understanding with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that no discussion should take place to-night. But, as it was only yesterday that the original resolutions were circulated, and as he had not seen the important alteration made by the right hon. gentleman until the moment he entered the house, he did not think it manifested great bitterness to appeal for further time for discussing the resolutions. (Hear, hear.) If all the com mittee were now asked to agree to was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be allowed to bring in a bill, that removed many of his objections. But if it were to go forth to the country that the House of Commons had solemnly assented to the proposal of the right hon. gentleman, then it would be his duty to call for a division, to show the comparatively small number of members present at that moment. He would, however, take the word of the noble lord, that the committee were only asked to express an opi nion now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should be permitted to bring in his bill, and that proposal he should not oppose. The right hon. member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) said that it was the business of the House of Com mons always to facilitate the progress of Government busi ness. That was a doctrine no doubt very agreeable to the Treasury benches, and the house would be disposed to comply with that rule ; but in being amiable and avoid ing displays of bitterness, they must not lose the opportu nity of discussing subjects of great importance, upon which, as it seemed, no mistake or difference of opinion could possibly arise among men of business. The hon. gen tleman who had spoken last seemed to treat this as a ques tion upon which men of business could not have two opi nions. But, speaking their views, he had objected to the increase of the debt which would have followed from adopt ing the second proposition of the original resolution, while the Secretary of tho Treasury (Mr. Wilson) said that no in crease of the permanent debt of the country could have taken place under that proposal, but rather a diminution — (a laugh)—and that, if it had remained as it had been ori ginally framed, instead of causing an increase of 50,000,0001. t the debt, as apprehended by men of business, there would have been a proportionate diminution. . Mr. LAING said he had stated that - the original resole- tion would have increased the difficulty of converting the new stock into a stock bearing a lower rate of interest at the end of the term. (Hear.) Mr. DISRAELI had understood the hon. gentleman to state that there were great objections on the part of men of business to the original resolution, on the ground that it would increase the permanent debt. But the Secretary of the Treasury showed that this was a mistake on the part of men of business, and that there would have been a di minution in the amount of the debt thereby. All that he (Mr. Disraeli) wanted was, before the opportunity arrived of entering into a discussion upon the merits of the resolu tions, that the house should come to some clear conception of what they were hereafter to debate. There had already been a considerable change made in the propositions framed by the right hon. gentleman. The committee had heard them described by eminent members, all supporting them in very different language. The right hon. member for Coventry had described the Government plan as one of the most important and gigantic financial proposals that had over been brought forward, and in another part of his speech this colossal proposal figured as the creation of a two-and-a-half per cent. stock. The general impression for some time had been that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was going to pay off the national debt. (A laugh.) The change in the resolutions had thrown some light upon the Government plan, but if it had been a proposal to pay off the national debt it could not be described in language more glowing than by the sight hon. gentleman the member for Coventry. Now, the house, he repeated, ought to have a clear conception of what the Government originally proposed to do, what they now proposed to do, and what might be done if the house supported the proposal of the Government. Ho would trouble the house with the note which he had made upon the original resolution, for he had not seen the amended resolution until ho entered the house. The measure before the house was a great financial question, and must be viewed in its completeness ; and he would therefore look at the effect of this resolution upon the 500,000,0001. of the Consols and the Three per Cents. The first proposal was, that the holders of stock should rec e i ve f or ever y 1001., 821. 10s. in a new stock of 33 per cent., which should be paid at the rate of 31. 10s. per cent. until the sth of January, 1894. Now, he would not contrast the compa rative advantage of this and the next proposition, or enter upon the question whether they had a correlative value. This had been touched upon with great lucidity by his hon. and learned friend (Sir F. Kelly). He would only show the effect of the proposal of the Government, so that the house might clearly know whether they would gain a proportionate advantage in the step they were asked to take. What was the debtor and creditor account with the country upon this first proposition, viewed in its possible com pleteness and in its effect upon the 500,000,000/. ? If the 500,000,0001. were all converted upon this proposal, the result would be, that, instead of paying, as at present, 15,000,0001. a year, we should only pay 14,437,5001., and this would be a gain of 562,5001. a year. What would be the effect of agreeing to the second proposition ? It was, that the holder of every 1001. should receive 1101. in the new stock of 23 per cent. until 1894. Now, what would be the effect upon the 500,000,0001. if it were converted accordingly into this new stock ? The fundholder would of course at present receive his 15,000,0001., but if the con version took place under the' second option he would re ceive 13,750,0001., which would be an annual . diminution of burden, not of 562,0001., but of 1,250,0001. per annum. So that the country would gain 1,250,0001. per annum, but would be saddled with an addition to the public debt of 50,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) What would be the effect of the third resolution if it were carried ? The third pro posal was, that for every 1001. the holder should receive an Exchequer bond for the like amount, carrying interest at the rate of V. 15s. until 1864, and then at the rate of 21. 10s. until 1894. Now, the country would gain 1,250,0001. until 1864, an d 2,500,0001. thence to 1894, but the Government would be bound to repay the whole 500,000,0001. These were the proposals viewed with re ference to their action upon the national debt, for that was the true test of their operation. Now, what aspect had the question assumed since the new edition of the re solutions ? The alteration was very laudable, and the resolutions might now be more safe and easy to carry into execution, particularly if they were carried out to the pos sible effect which he had anticipated. But, after the admissions that had been made, the alterations that had been introduced to their notice, and the explanations that had been given, did this question any longer possess that magnitude of interest which it had when they woke that morning? (Hear, hear.) Let the house observe how the character of these three different propositions were changed. The first proposition he would now take up was the last one he had mentioned a little ago. It was the proposal as to the Exchequer bonds. They were limited in amount in the original proposition, having been fixed at 30,000,0001. ; but the right hon. gentleman, in his state ment, candidly informed them that, though he had limited himself to 30,000,0001. as the amount of these bonds, he should not hesitate to come to Parliament—for fresh aid and assistance in carrying the scheme still further, if he found it successful. And of course he contemplated that by the aid of these Exchequer bonds he would be success ful in his operations on the 500,000,000/. But had the dis cussion of that evening supported this idea? Had the speeches, even of these who upheld the statement of the Minister, sanctioned that anticipation ? On the contrary, all that had been said—and what had been said had been uttered with great propriety, whether by those who were favourable or opposed to the proposition—all showed that the Exchequer bond might be made an instrument in fi nance, and a valuable one—one that the commercial man would use, but that it was an instrument limited in its use. He now came to the second proposition, following out a train exactly opposite to that which he pursued at first ;, came to that second proposition, which had astonished and alarmed the country, and oven the hon. gentleman opposite ouonisitneei()Mrailallaying) They were w ha e c r l e ad n dr o rs: o d the t upon the 500,000,0001. by the second proposition. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had. altered his resolution, but what ho (Mr. Disraeli) wished to impress upon the house was that by this second proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which, according to the hon. gentleman opposite, would enormously increase the debt, and according to; the Secretary to the Treasury would greatly diminish it,—according to this proposition there were no indications of any great dealing with the public burdens—nothing that could in any degree authorise those magnificent laudations that were indulged in by the right hon. member for Coventry. (Hear.) The new stock was to be limited to 30,000,0001.! (Hear, hear.) And this 30,000,0001. was to produce those extraordinary effects which the right hon. member for Coventry described with so glowing an imagination when he was prompted to pro nounce these resolutions as embodying the most wonderful financial propositions ever made. (Hear, hear.) It was neither the second nor the third proposition, then, that wont to deal largely with the d e bt of th e country. (Hear.) Then there was the first proposition, the power and in fluence of which was not to be diminished. It was to exercise its great moral influence on the public burdens, and its singular effects were to justify the descriptions so vividly given by the hon. member for Coventry. (Hear, hear.) But then, unfortunately, the first proposition was the only proposition that everybody decried. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) It was the only proposition not limited in its operation, and , the very proposition that, on all sides, was admitted could have no effect at All on the public burdens. (Hear, hear.) That was probably the reason why the noble lord would not consent to a little more time to discuss the subject hereafter, be cause he wished the country to understand that it was not, after all, a question of any importance. (A laugh.) Then what were they going to do? (Hear, hear.) What was all this pother about ? (A laugh.) Why had they this matter announced before the budget was brought forward, and a sort of special announcement made that resolutions of the utmost importance were to be pro posed, heralded, let him remind the committee, by rumours of great interest and magnitude ? (" Hear," and a laugh.) The funds rose on these rumours ; they said now it was a mistake, but still they rose—(a laugh)—and then the reso lutionsAhe moment- the committee met to deliberate upon them, were changed,—(a laugh)--changed to such a degree that it seemed totally impossible they could, by carrying such resolutions, fulfil what must have been the original object of them—to deal powerfully and practically with the ' public debt. (Hear.) The great object, the right hon. member for Coventry said, of these resolutions—this unex ampled feat of finance—was to create a 23 per cent. fund. That was the great object. Every age had its great object whioh it wished to achieve. This was a financial age, and at all cost and by all means they must create a 23 per cent. fund. (Hear, hear.) But the curious thing was, that two propositions were put before them to create funds —one was to create a 31 per cent. fund, and the other a 23 per cent. fund. Now, it was remarkable that all the ma g i ca l influ ences which had been enlarged upon were to be produced by the 33 -per cent. If by any chance they were to operate largely on the public debt, they were to operate by means of the 33 per cent. fund, and not by the 23 per cent. fund, though they had been told that to establish this 23 per cent. fund was the great end which they were to labour to achieve. (Hear, hear.) Then, if the only object was to create a 23 per cent. fund, it appeared to him that it could have been done by simpler means. (Hear, hear.) They could have funded a portion of Exchequer-bills, and ac customed the people to receive 23 per cent. funds. They might have done it by means that other Ministers had had had recourse to before without exciting the whole country with an idea that the public burdens were going to be entirely done away with—that a new machinery had been invented by which the whole debt of the country would be removed. (A laugh.) But they were going to have a 23 per cent. fund to a limited extent by the second resolution, and they were increasing the public debt of the country to the amount of 4,000,0001. (Hear, hear.) It would have been cheaper to have funded a portion of Ex chequer bills for that also. But it was not financial relief that was wanted. (Hear.) What they seemed to want was a model, a sort of normal financial farm. (A laugh.) They wanted to have a stock, no matter how, if it only paid. 23 per cent. That seemed to be the object that it was not impossible they might obtain. (Hear, hear.) But he thought it was of great i mportance—though these resolutions were to pass without any division that night, on the understanding that in so doing they were only as senting to tho Minister of Finance bringing in a bill on the subject—it was of importance that the country, after all the excitement that had occurred, should have a real idea of this question. (Hear, hear.) He was not sure that the propositions before them might not be charac terised by all that was sensible and judicious ; but they did not profess to do much, and he thought they would do less than they professed to do. (A laugh.) But it was just as well that the country should know what they were going to do, and not to be left under the impressiont e h a a t the public debt was going to be largely reduced. (H r, hear.) More complicated and ingenious machinery, to produce so slight a result, appeared to him never to have been devised by the subtlety and genius of the most skilful casuist. (Hear, hear.) In St. Thomas Aquinasotas there was a chapter that speculated upon the , angels could dance on the point of a needle.laugh.) It was one of the rarest productions of hu man g enius— (a laugh)—and he recognised in these resoluti ons s omething k question of how many (A of that master mind. (A laugh.) He should be happy if, after due deliberation, they arrived with general unanimity at some safe conclusions on the subject. But, as it was Majesty's debt was going to be paid o ff . ( Hear, hear," an d s F h i o i u d l a d y n g i o g h t t o , he h e e s i h r o 1 11 11 1 n be be r s s o r w r t h i f they her belief that sects tuhbej na tional laughter.) Captain LAFFAN made some observations to show what would bo the different effects of the first two propo sitions in the case of two individuals who might comm u t e, say, 100/. each, into the two new descriptions of stock. : R ra w se o lf ulc ia l not ore At the end of 40 years the one would find Qu t ed to say th a t the beneficiallyg oint ohoc tHh these e s N i n C u E a n t Lu e t d Le q h ßt a e so tf t h ot e nh s o e h Eb e bue gEg hon. gentleman treated the national debt as if it was a sum that the public creditor had a right to recover from the nation. Now, he had no such right. The public never entered into an engagement to pay the public creditor. All they did was to agree to pay the national creditors certain perpetual annuities, and these perpetual annuities were, if the public thought fit, redeemable on certain terms, •the terms on which they were redeemable being the payment of a certain sum of money. (Hear, hear.) The individuals of whom the hon. gentleman spoke would not get their 1101. or their 981. 10s., unleSs it was the interest of the - State to give it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. MALINS impugned the proposition that England had no other liability towards the public creditor than that of paying a perpetual annuity. Strictly and legally speaking that might be correct, but practically the doc trine was most erroneous. (Hear, hear.) The first resolution, which was as follows, was then agreed to : "1. That the capital trading stock of the Corporation of the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encouraging the fishery, which is called and known by the name of South Sea Stock : the capital stocks of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, called and known by the name of the Old' South Sea Annuities and by the name of the New South Sea Annuities : the capital stock of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, created by an act passed in the twelfth year of King George the First, intituled, An Act for granting to his Majesty the sum of 1,000,000/., to be raised by way of lottery,' called and known by the name of the Bank Annuities 1726: and the capital stock of the 3/. per Centum Annuities, created by an act passed in the twenty-fourth year of King George the Second, intituled An Act for granting to his Majesty the sum of 2,100,0001., to be raised by annuities and a lot tery, and charged on the Sinking Fund, redeemable by Parliament,' called and known by the nznne of the 35. per Centum Annuities 1751, shall be paid off and redeemed. The second resolution was than read as follows : " 2. That every p2rson, body politic awl corporate, who now is, or hereafter may be, interested in the capital stocks of any of the said 31. per Centum Annuities, who shall, in manner hereinafter directed, give notice at any time on or before Friday, the'3l. day of Juno, 1853, of his assent to receive other government securities in lieu and in place of the said capital stocks of the said annuities, in stead of being paid in money, shall, at the option of the said parties, receive for every 1001. thereof, 82/. 103. in a a New Stock of Three-and-a-Half per Ceutum An nuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the rate of 3/. 10s. per centum per annum until the sth day of January, 1894, from and after which day the said annui ties shall be subject to redemption by Parliament; or for every 100/. of the said capital stocks of. annuities the sum of 110/. in a New Stock of Two-and-a-Half per Centum Annuities, which said annuities shall be paid at the rate of 2/. 10s. per centum per annum until the sth day of January, 1894, from and after which day the said annuities shall be subject to redemption by Par liament ; or for every sum of 100/. of the capital Stocks of the said 3/. per Centum Annuities, an Exchequer Bond for the like amount payable to the bearer, and carrying interest at the rate of 21. 15s. per Centum per annum, payable half-yearly, on the Ist day of March and the Ist day of September in every year, until the Ist day of September in a year to be named in such bond, and not later than Ist September, 1864, inclusive, and thenceforth 2/. 10s. per centum per annum, payable half-yearly in like manner, until and including the Ist of September, 1894, and thereafter to be subject to redemption at par, at the option of the holder, or at the option of the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury, as shall be named in such bond." Mr. DISRAELI thought it right, bbfore this resolution was agreed to, to warn the committee that, from the alter ations made in the resolution, from the admissions made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from various other statements, this was, in fact, the important resolu tion. He wished the committee to bear this in mind, and he protested against the supposition that, by allowi ng the resolution to pass, he for o ne assen t e d t o i t. If the committee agreed to the conversion of the whole of 500,000,0001., under the second resolution, he must remind the committee that the profit to the country would but little exceed 550,0001. a-year ; and they should well consider whether, for such an object as reducing the interest of the debt by 500,0001. sterling, they would do right to fix the rate of interest at 21 per cent. for more than 40 years. (Hear.) That was a most important point, which the committee appeared to be disposing of in almost a formal manner, but it was a point to which they must give deliberate attention. The interest guaranteed was higher than he, for one, thought would prevail during the next 40 years. (Hear, hear.) It w as an enormous respon sibility-to undertak e to make such an arrangement, and he trusted the committee, when they came to discuss the sub ject on a future occasion, would think it th e i r d u t y mos t carefully to consider whether they would assent to it. (Hear, hear.) The resoltition was then agreed to, together with the four subsequent resolutions, as follows : " 3. That the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised and empowered to fix the number of years during which the interest of 21. 15s. per cent. shall be pay able on such bond, subject to the limitation of the fore going resolution, and likewise to determine whether such bond, after the Ist of September, 1891, shall be red eema bl e at their option only, or shall also be redeemable at the option of the holder, and that the said Commissioners shall give notice in the London Gazette of what they shall deter mine in these respects as soon as may bo after the passing of any act in pursuance of these resolutions. "4. That the dividends and interest payable on such New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, on such New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, and on such Exchequer Bonds, shall be charged and chargeable upon the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. " 5. That the dividends now payable by law on sth July and sth January in every year on the said Capital Trading Stock and on the said capital stock of New South Sea An nuities, annuities 1726, and annuities 1751, shall continue payable until the sth January, 1851, inclusive, and no longer. "That the dividends now payable by law on 10th Octo ber and sth April in every year on the said capital stock a Old South Sea Annuities shall continue payable until sth April, 1854, inclusive, and no longer. " 6. That if the Corporation of the Governor and Com pany of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encouraging the fishery, shall at any time on or before Friday, the 3d day of Juno, signify to the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury their assent to commute and exchange the said capital trading stock, or any part thereof, into any one or mote of the said 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/. 103. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, the said corporation shall be permitted to make such commutation and exchange upon the same terms, and subject to the like conditions, as are granted to the person or persons, bodies politic or corporate, interested in, or entitled to, the capi tal stock of 3/. per Centum Annuities now proposed to be paid off and redeemed." The seventh resolution was then read by the Clerk as follows : • "7. That all and every person or persons, bodies politic or corporate, possessed of any part of the said 31. per Cou ture Annuities, and who shall desire to si g nify his, her, or their assent to receive the said N ew 31. lOs. per Centum Annuities, New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exche quer Bonds in lieu thereof, shall on or before' the 3d day of Juno, 1853, but within the usual hours of transacting busi ness at the Bank of England, or at the South Sea House, by themselves or some agent or agents for thatpurpose duly au thorised, signify to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, or to the Governor and Company of Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas, as the case may be, such assent in writing under his, her, or their hand or hands or the hand or hands of his, her, or their agent or agents, together with the amount of his, her, or their respecti ve share or shares in the said 31. per. Centum Annuities, and which said assent shall be entered in a book or books to be opened and kept by the said governor and company of the Bank of England and by the said governor and com pany of merchants of Great Britain trading to tie, South Seas for that purpose; and in case of any transfer of such share or shares of such annuities, or any part or parts thereof, after such assent, the part or parts of such annuities so transferred shall be entered in the said book or books separately from the said 3/. per Centum Annuities, in respect of which no such assent shall be signified, and every such person or persons so assenting, or his, or her or their assigns, or the executors or administrators of such assigns, under any such transfer, shall be entitled for every 1001. capital stock of the said 31. per Centum An nuities to si2/. 10s. of the capital stock of New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or to 110/. of the capital stock of the New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or to an Exchequer Bond of 1001. bearing interest as aforesaid : provided always that if any pers on or persons holding any such 31. per Centum Annuities, shall not be within the limits of the United Kingdom at any time between the Bth day of April and the 3d day of June, 1853, both inclusive, but shall be in any other part of Europe, it shall be lawful for such per son or persons to signify such assent at any tim e b e f ore t h e 30th day of July, 1805 ; and if any such person or persons shall not at any time between the Bth day of April, 1853, and the 30th it day of J u l y , 1853 , be within any part o f Euro p e, shall be lawful for him, her, or them to signify such assent at any time before the Ist day of February, 1854, such person or persons proving to the satisfaction of the Governor or Deputy Governor of the Bank y, of . England, or to the G overnor o f th e his, her ' , or their a b sence f rom th e South Sea Comp United Kingdom, or out of Europe, as above sp ec ifi e d, an d that his, her, or their share or shares of such 31. p er C en t um Annuitiesi s tood in his, her, or their name or names respec tively, orin the name or names of any one or more trustee or trustees, on his, her, or their behalf, in the books of the Gover nor anct;ComnanY of the Bank of E ng l an d , or G overnor and Company of Merchant Traders to the South S eas on the 3d day of Juno, 1 853 : provided also, that such person or per sons so absent from the United Kingdom, or ou t of Europe, shall signify such his, her, or their assent, within ten day s after his, her, or their return to the United Kingdom." In answer to Mr. WILKINSON, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, as regarded the management of the South Sea d e b t, he did not take credit for any saving whatever. On the contra as nothing was the debt at present for th e management of the debt it was possible there might be an increased expense of perhaps 2001. a-year under that head. The hon. gentle mane had asked whether there was not a large amount of South Sea Stock at 3i per cent. He believed the state of the case was this-the South Sea Company had assigned to them a sum of 600,0001. in 3 per cent. Consols, in compen sation for certain privileges of exclusive trade which they gave up. They were holders of 3 pearncdentht. i stock, just like other holders of the same security, e r practice was, he believed, to take the dividends on that sum of 600,0001., and to distribute them regularly among their o wn mem bers. The practical eff ec t o f this was, holder as the gentle man said, that the S ou th S ea Stock ho receive 34 per cent., the company adding per cent. The resolution w as th en agreed to, together gether with the following remaining resolutions 8. That provision shall be made for paying off such proprietor or proprietors of any of the said Capital Trading Stock or Capit a l St oc k s of Annuities before mentioned, as shall not signify his assent to accept and receive New 31. 108. per C en t um Annuities, or New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, in lieu thereof. "9. That every person or persons, body politic or corporate, who now is, or hereafter may be, interest e d in or e n titl e d to any part of the capital stock of the Consolidated 3/. per Centum Annuities, or of the Capi tal Stock of the Reduced 31. per Centum Annuities, payable at the Bank of England, or at the Bank of Ireland, and who shall at any time before the 10th day of October, 1853, signify to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, or to the Governor and Company of the Bank of Ireland, by an entry to be made in books to be opened for such purpose, his desire to commute and ex change any or all of the said annuities to which ho may be entitled, into any one or more of the said New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, shall be permitted to make such com mutation and exchange upon the same terms and subject to the like conditions as are granted to the person or per sons, bodies politic or corporate, interested in or entitled to the Capital Stocks of 31. per Centum Annuities pro posed to be be paid off and redeemed as aforesaid. " 10. That nothing herein contained shall extend to authorise the commutation of the said Consolidated 31. per Centum Annuities, or the said Reduced 31. per Centum Annuities, into the said New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annui ties, after the amount_entered for commutation into moll Nc 10.3. per Centum Annuities in the said books of the kof England and 'Beek of Ireland, shall have reri ai the sum of 30,033,030 L ; and that the power of commutation of the said 31. per Centum Stocks shall there after be limited to the two other options herein before 1 given ; that is to say, the option of exchange for 3/. 10a. per Cent= Annuities, and th e op ti on of exchange for Exchequer Bonds." • "11. That the Commissioners of her Majesty's Treasury be authorised and empowered to issno at any time between the sth of April, 1853, and the sth of April, 1854, Ex chequer Bonds, payable to bearer, upon the like terms and conditions as hereinbefore described, and after public no tice in the London Gazette, from time to time to sell such Exchequer Bonds, or any part thereof, and to apply the proceeds in redeeming any part of the capital trading stock or capital stock of annuities now proposed to be paid off and redeemed, or in purchasing and cancelling any Exchequer Bills, or in exchanging such Bonds for Exchequer Bills, upon such terms as the said Commissioners shall think proper, or in purchasing and cancelling any of the Consolidated 3/. per. Centum Annuities, or Reduced pl. per Centum Annui ties, payable at the Bank of England or at the Bank of Ireland, as the case may be. " 12. That the interest on such Exchequer Bond shall be issued and chargsablo on the said Consolidated Fund. " 13. That no amount of such Exchequer Bonds shall be charged exc ee di ng i n the whole the sum of thirty millions. " 14. That it shall be lawful for the Accountant- Geeeral of the Courts of Chancery in England and Ireland respectively, axed for the Accountant in Bankruptcy in in England, at any time before the 3d day of June, 1853, to signify to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, or to the Corporation of the Governor and Com pany of the Merchants of Great Britain trading to the South Seas and other parts of America, and for encou raging the fishery, on behalf any suitor or suitors, or others interested 31. per Centum Annuities hereinbefore referred to, standing i n th e names o f such Accountants-General and Accountant respectively, their assent to accept and receive shares in the said New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or New 21. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, in lieu of all such 3/. per Cen tum Annuities standing in their names respectively ; and the said .Accountants -General and Accountant respectively shall be fully indemnified against all actions, suits, and proceedings for and in respect of any action, matter, or thing done by them respectively in pursuance thereof. " 15. That all executors, administrators, guardians, and trustees interested in or entitled to any part of the capital stock of the Old South Sea 31. per Centum Annuities, of the New South Sea 31. per Centum Annuities, of the 31. per Centum Annuities created by the Act 12th George the First, of the 3/. per Centum Annuities created by the Act 24th George the Second, o f th e C onsolidated 3/. per Centum Bank Annuities, and of the Reduced .31. per Centum Bank Annuities, whether payable at the Bank of England or at the Bank, of Ireland, as the case may be, who shall signify their desire to convert the Annuities to which they may be respectively interested into any of the New 3/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, New 2/. 10s. per Centum Annuities, or Exchequer Bonds, shall be in demnified." The CHANCELLOR of the -EXCHEQUER gave notice that he would, on Monday next, bring forward certain re solutions of form which would constitute the notice to paities. The house then resumed. The motion, that the house on its rising do adjourn until Monday, was then put and agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Mr. W. WILLIAMS hoped the hon. gentleman, the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Wilson), did not intend to force any votes upon the house to-night. These estimates had not been delivered until yesterday, and then accom panying them were the Chancellor of the Exchequer's re solutions, to which he had devoted his attention, and he had had, therefore, no time to give to the consideration of these estimates, the contents of which hon. members cer tainly ought have an opportunity of examining before they came under discussion. The estimates of 1830, when the late Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister, amounted • to 1,950,000/. ; under Sir It. Peel's Government, in 1835, they amount e d to 2,100,0001.; but'they were now 4,500,000/. He wished f or an opportunity of examining into the cause of this extraordinary increase, and he should take the sense of the house on the subject, unless he received an assurance that no.votes would be taken to-night. EXAMINATION OF CANDIATES FOR THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE. Mr. EWART rose to call attention to the expediency of instituting an examination of candidates for the diplomatic service. He believed it was the intention of the late Go vernment, and he hoped it was the intention of the present Government, to see whether they could not introduce some species of examination for that important department-- the diplomatic service of this country. He would not, of course, insist upon an examination in the case of the higher functionaries, but he believed the subordinate appointments would be much better filled if the candidates for those offices had to undergo a preliminary examination, in which the knowledge of foreign languages should form an important part. (Hear.) In our own country this system had been established in regard to appointments in the army and navy ; it had been successfully adopted in other countries, and he thought it was high time it should be applied to diplomatic as well as to other departments here. Ho had great hopes, too, that the Indian patronage would before long be bestowed on a system of free public examinations, where the best qualified would be the suc cessful candidates. Meanwhile, he wished to know whether the inquiries promised by the late Government upon the subject of an examination for candidates for diplomatic appointments had been proceeded with, and whether the present Government had come to any decision on the sub ject ? Lord J. RUSSELL could not say that, daring the short time he had held the seals of the Fcreign-office, he had paid attention to the subject ; but he had heard from Lord Clarendon (so we understood) that all the papers were now completed, and that noble lord would probably take some steps upon them. Lord STANLEY—This subject had been pressed on the attention of the late Government, and the result of the .con siderationi g i ven was to chow that there were no materiall„ objections to the adoption of the system recommended u . l the honourable gentleman. It was considered that there should be a preliminary examination, and subsequently . °‘ second and more rigid test previous to which the candidate could not be considered to have fairly entered the diplomatic servi ce . Th a t was a mere outline of the scheme which he deemed it most advisable to adopt, if there was to be an examination„ but it was impos to look at it without taking the wide a nd mere comprehensive view—namely, whether they would keep up the diplomatic service as a profession—(hear)--a such as the military profession; for example. They partially adopted that theory, and on the strength of a person de voting himself to the diplomatic service he was entitled to a pension. It was doubtful to him whether they could render diplomacy a profession in that sense. The house would recollect the difference of the system pursued in the United States, and it was well known that in India pe rs ons were not primed up for that service, but were selected from those military and civil officers whose qualifications best entitled them to discharge its duties. In our own diplo matic service we broke through, in practice, the rule we had laid down in theory, and nothing was more common than to place men who had not previously filled diplomatic offices, or who had not received a diplomatic education, in high posts. (Hear, hear.) In point of fact they violated their own theory. They laid it down as a rule —or nomi nally as a rule—that those who were to conduct public business must be educated as for a profession, but they did not adherd to the practice. It was his opinion —his own individual opinion, that they m i g ht p l ace the whole diplo matic service on s:different footing—that they might have a body of men corresponding with those employed in the inferior offices of our civil service at home, employed at the missions abroad ; and if so, they might' throw open the diplomatic service ; and by doing away with retiring pen sions, effect a great saving for the country. He had, holr ever' no hesitation i n say i ng, that if they continued to makd the diplomatic service a profession, then, in order to guard against abuses, it was essentially necessary to esta blish some test, so that those who were incapable of go od service to the country should bo unable to enter on diplo macy as a profession. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALME RSTON said, that with regard t o the question to whi c h hi s h on. friend (Mr. Ewart) had referred, he begged to state that when he held the seals of the Fir reignr-office he did take steps with a view of establishing an examination for the junior members of the diplomatic service. His notion was very much like what had been stated by the noble lord who had just addressed the house, that a moderate examination might be established for those who were candidates for the office of unpaid attache, which was the first step, and that a more complete exami nation should take place with regard to candidates for the office of paid attache. He entered into a negotiation with the authorities of the London UniverSity, and took consi derable steps towards establishing arrangements for the examination that was to take place. He was, however, bound to say, that he did not concur in all the opinions which the noble lord had expressed. The noble lord seemed to think that it would be better to change the ex isting system of our diplomatic arrangements, and no longer consider it as a sort of professional body an d the noble lord qu o t e d , as au example, the practice of the United States. But the house must recollect the enti r° difference between the condition of the United States with regard to their relations with foreign countries, and foreign f its _ the conditi on o f thi s country i n respect to re lations. The United States, except, perhaps, in this country and in France, had hardly any interests to main tain or any objects to accomplish with any other of the countries of the European continent. If the noble lord wanted an example to look at, let him look at the example of those countries which had the greatest interest and in fluence in Europe. What was done by France? What was done by Russia ? What was done by Austria ? Why, by all those countries it was thought to be of great advan tage to employ men who trained their minds to the mat ters with which they had to deal. (Hear, hear.) It was thought in those countries expedient to employ persons to do a thing who understood the thing that was to be done (Laughter). Now, it might be all very pleasant to employ pgessntl aeevwho mi g ht w i s h to travel an d foreign courts, an d see, th rough t h e pass in years this at colinty means of the diplomatic service, any body of friends of the Government who might choose so to employ them (Hear, hear.) But the noble lord admitted it was expe dient the inferior offices of the diplomatic service should be filled by those very men whom lie neverthe less said he wished to see abolished ; and yet the noble lord at the same time was of opinion that we might safely have a person appointed superior Minister to a foreign court who was ignorant of his duty, provided he was as• sisted by a diplomatic official who knew it ; and where this subordinate o ffi c i a l could write the letters of his ignorant superior, and read to him and make him understand the letters he received. (Laughter.) Let the house only con calve this ignorant superior going to a conference with a e Minister of else country to .which he was accredited on 0 ' question involving an intimate knowledge of the law of na tions, a familiar acquaintance with politics, and with the stipulations of treaties ! Imagine that ignorant superior called upon by the Minister of that country to give his opi nion under such circumstances! He could not say, " Wait, sir ; I must send for my secretary. lam here only to d° the ornamental part; the man who is to do the business ig in my office at home ; you must allow me to send for hill before I can solve your question, or give you an answer:, (Laughter.) The great matter was that the man who ha d to do the business should understand how to do the busi ness that was to be done. (Laughter.) However, he would say this, that it was the fashion for many persons to speak disparagingly of the diplomatic body of this country. Ho had had some experience of that body, and ho could say, with the utmost sincerity, that he had, found no Go vernmen t i n Europe, better served he would not say, but so well served, or so well informed, as the, Government of thi s country. had . been by its different diplomatic agents, or who had received such correct in' formation as to the real state of foreign countries, 01' as to what was going to take place ; anden that at time' when the agents of other countries had be led into error' and misled 'eithe r w ith respect to the existing state eL s things, or of the then expected events. But he_was goia to fay that that which the noble lerti had 0114 the J 3 .BaDk