The Sun. — London, England, 1853-07-12 00:00:00

- ---............... A1i.................... —......................, SHARE MARKETS.—(THIS DAY.) LINES LEASED AT FIXED RENTALS. --- to • L eas ing Closing Prices B Isiness eh BRITISH RAILWAYS. Bbr. P9ll RAILWAYS. Compans. this day. Ur s dayi he --- ---- so _____ It, Mr. Paid. RAILWAYS. Closing Prices Business done this day. this day. St. 100 Buckghamsh. L. .11;N.W. 106 —lOB 1074 50 all ClydesdaloJe. Calcdon... 54 —56 ......_ St. 100 E.Lineoln. gr. to St. 100 Ab er d een 25 all Glstr.&Dn.Fr 6t.llrestn. 33 —34 he 20 Ambg Nottng. Bost vf. and Eastn. Junct... 54 54 ... IA 13i all Birming. Wolverh. & 100 all HRtpwl.aDyk. & Yk. New. 50 a ll Hull & Selby. Y.&N.Md. 112 114 1124 19 Stour Valley 94 10,1 25 a ll Do.. Shares. Do 56 57 Id 3 1 28 Birkenhd. Lanesh. & 274 284 284 r. Cheshire Janet 9 7 die 12? all Do. 4 Shares. Do 1 . 24 all Lon.&Greenw S.Eastern 144 144 74 all Do. Chesil. & Birk., 2 )7 20 all Do. Preference Do Lowestoft gr. 26 27 4 £5O and £25 Cons. 20 22 St. 100 22 18j Do., .£20..... ....... .. 34 24 4 per cent... Norfolk St. 100 B r i s t o l an d E xe ...... 100 101 1014 St, 100 Do. 6 per ct... Do n, St. 100 Caledonian 674 68 674 874 51 all Manch.Bxton. Ln.&N.W. ;h 50 all Chester & Holyhead. 22 224 22 and Matlock & Midld. 3 34 ly 50 all Cork an d B an d on 214 224 50 all Middlesbro' & Stckton & xi. 20 all Cork, Black, & Pass. .• :, - Redcar . Darlingt. ... -- 25 ... it 50 45 Dublin&BelfastJunc. 24 . ii P 100 all Midldradfd. Midland... 106 108 Or all Dundee Perth &Aber- 50 all Northern and er deen Junction 8 9 Bastern sp. c. E. Count.. 65 67 all Do. New — er 25 50 all Do. 6 per ct.. Do 25 all East Anglian 54 s i ... ti- 50 all Do. Fixed sp. cDo . . ..... ... ... 18 all Do., (.ClB E & H)... 3 4 1 124 4 le 20 all Eastern Countie5....: 12i 124 is 25 all Eastern Union, Class &Ln& Yk ... ... tn A. late E. U. Sh l l4 114 121 11A Do. 1 Shares. Do — ... 25 84 Do., do St. 100 - Roystn.& Hit. Gt.Northn 150 152 es 25 all Do., B. and C .... ... 8 *** --- .84 St. 100 Do•Shepth.St. Do l5O 152 Al St. 100 East Lancashire 714 721 25 18 Shef. Roth. & Lancash.& East &West Lad. Dk Goole g .5. p. c Yorksh .. ... - ... 1g 50 all & Eirming. June 5O 54 12 91, S. Staffordsh.. Mr3lClean 14 4 d )(I re St. 100 Edinburgh& Glasgow 70 72 50 all - WearValleygr Stockt. & 10 14 Ediub. and Peebles •• •• • 6 per cent ... Darling . • . . . d 32 33 St. 100 Edin. Prth. &Dundee 29 31 25 all Do Do r- St. 100 Glasizow& S. Western ~, ... , St. 100 Wilts&Somrst Gt.Westn lO5 106 Aberdeen .. .... Ambg Noting. Bos: and Eastn. Junct i Birming. Wolverh. & Stour Valley ;8 Birkenhd. Lanesh. & Cheshire Junct Do. Chesil. & Birk., £5O and £25 Cons. 22 18 Do., £20....... St. 100 Bristol and Exeter. St. 100 Caledonian 50 all Chester & Holyhead. 50 all Cork and Bandon 20 •11 Cork, Black, & Pass. 50 ,',* Dublin&BelfastJunc. 25 Dundee Perth &Aber deen Junction. .11 Do. New.... ' East Anglian.... 11 Do., (£l.B E & H)., Eastern Counties.... Eastern Union, Classl A. late E. U. Sh.. 84 Do., do .. 11 Do., B. and C.. East Lancashire ... East & West Ind. Dk, 50 & Birming. June.... St. , Edinburgh & Glasgow 10 14 Ediub. and Peebles... 1 ) St. ) Edin. Prth. & Dundee St. Glasg,ow & S. Western St. i Great Northern Stk. St. 10, Do., A. Stock St. 100 , 0., B. Stock St. 100 Gt. Sth. &Wcst.(lre ) St. 100 Great Western..- 12 11 Irish South-Eastern 50 ' a ll Lancaster & Carlisle 16i 11 Do., Thirds .. . ...... . . S t. 100 Lancash.andYorksh. 20 16 Do., Fifths....... 14 114 D 3., Wst. Riding Uu. 50 all Leeds Northern 20 all Liv.Crsby.&Southpt 11i all London & Blackwall 10 5 Lond. Tilb. & Sthend. St. 'lOO Loud. Bright &S. Cst. St. 100 Loud. and N. Westn. 20 12 Do. Fifths .;. ... . .... 10 1 D 0.10/. Sh. , M&8...0 St. 100 London andS. Westn. 50 421 Do., £5O 40 34 Do., £4O 25 all Lndndrry&Coleraine 25 all Ludndrry. & Ennisk. St. 100 INlanch.Shef.& Lincln 8 / 2 8 44 Do., 'Man. & Lin. Uu. St. 100 Midland St. 100 Do. Birmng. & Derby 5 0 474 Aidld. G. West. (Ire.) 5 174 Do. Half Sh ares 102 0 all Newcastle & Carlisle St. 100 Newmarket 6 4 3. Do., Bury Extensi o n 25 17'A Nwpt.Aberg. & Hrfd 5° 2O 74Newry & Enniskillen all Newry Warrenpoint and Rostrevor. 100 Norfolk 34 Northn.Counties Un 10 North British .6 North Devon, No. 1 9 Do., No. 2 ill Do., i A Deferred 8 Do., 4 B Guaranteed .74 North Staffordshire .11 North Western.. 0 N. &S. Westrn. June Oxford, Worcester, & Wolverhampton St ' 100 Scottish Central A - :' 100 Scottish Midland R T. 100 Shrewsbury &Birmg -"' 100 Do. L. &N. Western Guaranteed Stock Shrewsby. & Herefd Shrewsby. & Chester (N. W. Min.) I Do. Halves, do Il Do. Oswestry 64 Shropshire Union 11 South Devon 10 South Eastern :11 South Wales .5 S. Yrksh. & Riv. Dun 5 Do.. al Stockton & Hartlepl !I) Thames Haven Dock and Railway 20 17 Vale of Neath 0 all Waterfd. & Kilkenny 50 all Waterford&Limerick 20 14 West Cornwall. 10 21s. Wimbledn &Croydon St. 100 York NewetL&Berw. 25 20 Do. Extensions 25 114 Do. G.N. E. Purchase St, 100 York &N. Midland_ 85 8 6 53 55 .34 -- 136 107 -- 109 88 i -- 894 n 7 i -- 7i 97 -- 102 761 -- 77 4i -- 4id 3 $ -34 d 15 8i -- 9 1 $ -- l ip [034 -- 1044 [144-115k 1i -- 2kp 1 -14 r 89 -- 90 5i -- -- 11 -- 13 18 -- 20 28i -- 294 100 jWilts&SomrstiGt.Westn., 85i 6 134 i 70i -71 i 40 -- 42 53 - 56 F LT iS I 2 . i - -.3 8 9 50 52 3i 2jd 33 ... 34 16' 8 4," 4 - 4gcli 8i 8t j 16 Bt. 10, 483 - 49, 92 - 94 58 - 62 55 - 60 65 -- 70 1} -- id 18i -- -- 19 94 9' 13i -- 14 . 3i -34 d 19 -- 21 70 -70 i 364 12 --13 20.1.3 i , al , 25 1 a. 25 1 21 23 - 25 2 - 141 - 15 2 8' - 91 30 - 32 - 104 684 - 6i - - 58A -- 594 PREFEREN , 100 Aberdeen .00 Do. No. 2, 7 p. c. .00 I3ris. & Ex. 4p. c. St. 5 Do. 4 p. c. Shares .A '44.ledonian £lO all Chester & Holyhead Guar. 56 per cent 64 Cork &Bandons4 p.c 0,1 Dundee Perth &Aber-, deco Junction ill EastAnglian (1.:310s) 6 per cent a Do. (XS) 7 per cent 2 (X 7 17s) 7p. c 11 Eastern Counties Ex tension, 5 p. c. No. 1 11 Do. No. 2 •• 11 D e. New 6 p. C St. .11 Eastern Union, Scrip Gua7-. 6 per cent ... 0 East Lancash. 6p. cts. 11 &hub Prth.&Dundee 10 5 ?, per cent. Glasgow & S. Western Guar. 5 per cent * Gr eat Northn. 5 p. c 0 Do. 5 P. c. Redeem., r at 4i 10 p. c. Prem. a Do. p. e. Scrip 11 Gt, Southn.&Westm (Ireland) Eighths) 6 Gt. Westu. (Berks & Hants Ex. 5 p. c) 0 Do. cov. red. 46 p.c O Do. con, red. 4p. c ' O Do. irred. 4p. c 6 Lan, & York. F. £2O 10 Do. 6p. c. Stock ] O London and Brighton Guaranteed 5 p. c 10 Do. Pref., 5 p. c. St. 11 Do. Convertible, sp. c., 1852 O Do. New Guar.6 p. c 5 London &S. Western Con. Thirds .0 Londonderry& Coler, 6 Shares all Lowly. & Ennis.6Sh all ran., Shef., & Lin., Shares, No. 1. 11 Do. New, £lO 3 Do. £6 ill Wary pt & Carl. 4 p.c . 1 1 Do. 4i per cent 83 Do O Aid. Consol.6 p.c.St 0 Do. Consol. Bris'•ol & Birm. 6 per cent 5 Do. Pref. 46 per cent 6 Norfolk Extension Do. 5 p. c. Ext Do. Guar. 56 per et_ Do. Way. Val. 5 p. c. North British North Staffordshire Oxford, Worcester, & Wolverh.X.ls, 6 P.C. Do.. NI ai al 6 :4 al Lll Shrews. &Birm.N.G. ill Shrewsby. & Chester (Nor.W.Min), 8 p.c. [0 Do. 5 per cent ill South Devon Do. New ill S. Eastern (Reading Ann.) of £1 Os. 6d. )0 Do. 46 percent. Pre.l ill S.Yorksh.4p.c.Guar. 3 Waterfd. &Kilk.6p.c. 10 York, Newcastle,and Berwick,4 p.c. Pref 5 Do .0 York&N. Midland H and S. Pura MINES. all Agua. Fria . all Anglo Californian 2 Australasian 5 Australian all Australian Cordillera all Australian Freehold all Ave Maria all Baden (Gd. Duchy of) all British Austrin. Gold 13.5 British Iron 242 Brazilianlmp.(issued at E 5 pm all Do. Cocaes & Cuiada 15 Do. St. John Del Rey Carsous's Creek all Cobra Copper 1 Colonial Gold 14 Copiapo all Copper Min. of Eng all Do. Pref. 7 p. cent all English and Austin Copper Smeltg. Co all General all /Great Nugget Vein all Great Polgooth all ;Lake Bathurst.. all Liberty all Lortd.&Californ.Goldi Quartz Crush. Co all Mariquita 9 Mexicau&S.Americn, all New Granada all Nouveau Monde.. 1 Port Philip all Quartz Rock all Rhymney Iron 15 Do. New 10i Santiago de Cuba all South Australian 7 Tin Croft all United Mexican all Waller all 'West Granada. all West Mariposa all Yuba JOINT-STOC: all Australasia all British Colonial Ban' and Loan Company all British N. American 2 Chrtd. Bnk.of India, Austral. and China 5 Chrtd. 13a. of Asia 25 Colonial 20 Commercial of Lond 10 English Scottish and Australian Chrtd 12i London Chrtd. Bnk of Australia 20 London and County 10 London Joint Stock 20 Lond.andWestminst 35 National Provincial ! of England 10 Do. New 22i National of Ireland , all Oriental Bank Cor. poration 25 Provincial of Ireland all Do. New 1 Royal Australn. Bkg. and Gold Imp. Co 25 ,South Australia all (Union of Australia 12 1 0. Now 101 Union of London . all 'Union of Madrid MISCELL. [OO 20 10 50 5 Aubin Coal and Iron 35 Australian Agricult. S Australsn.Pcific.Mail 6 Australn. Royal Mail 384 Brit. American Land 1 Brit. & Coln. Snicltg. and Reduction Co 321 Canada Company._ 5 Crystal Palace 50 50 2 100 EOUS. 68 - 70 66 .- 6 68 - 70 - 3 p - 1r 2 Crystal Pal, of France 1 Eastern Steam 1 Electric Tel. of Irel 14 Gen. Steam Navigat 14 General Screw Steam 5 Irish Beetroot Sugar 4 Magdalena St. Navig. all Nat. Pt. Steam Fuel 3 Netherlands Land all N. B. Australasian Nrth . of Europe Steam all Peel Rr. Ld. & Minrl. all Peninsular & Oriental 25 Do. do. all Portland Iron Co 60 Royal Mail Steam all Scot. Austral. Invest ''-'. ••• "-- f ar' r - ii, :- i'pl - ii 1-7 i' 6 I Do. New Scrip 25 South Austral. Land all Submarine Telegraph 28h Van Diemen's Land 40 1 - ii i 6 - 18 si 76i i 7 RAILWAY TRAFFIC RETURNS. LONDON AND SOUTH-EASTERN RAlLWAY.—Traffic re turn for the week ending July 9, 1853 £19,027 17 4 Corresponding week last year 16,219 3 1 Increase in 1853 £2,808 14 3 LONDON, BRIGHTON, AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY.— Traffic return for the week ending July 9, 1853 £13,958 6 10 Corresponding week last year 12,214 13 8 Total of the half-year to this date, 1853 25,621 3 7 Total of the half-year to this date, 1852 24,311 12 10 GLASGOW AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY.—Traffio re alm for the week ending July 9, 1853 £4,624 3 5 Corresponding week last year 4,064 9 9 Increase in 1853.. 2559 13 8 LLOYD'S SHIPPING.-(THIS DAY.) LONDON, July 12.—Wind this day at Noon, W. ; fine. COWES, July 11.—Wind, S.W. Arrived—lrene, Ewart, Torrevieja. PORTSMOUTH, July 11.—Wind, W. Sailed—H.M.'s st. Nerbudda, Rio Janeiro. FALMOUTH, July 10.—Wind, N.N.W. Arrived—Wa verley, and Vittoria, Sierra Leone ; Condor, Rio Janeiro ; Henriette, Taganrog ; John Oldham, Ode ssa • A nn K ey, Ibrail ; Antje, Galatz ; Rainbow, Salonica ; Patriot, Port Lagos ; Polly, Odessa ; Ageoline, Galata ; Nelson, Con stantinople. LIVERPOOL, July 11.—Wind, W.N.W. Arrived— Warbler, Tatmagonche, and Perast, Alexandria ; Johanna, Iceland ; Emperor, Bahia ; Northern Chief, and William Stetson, New Orleans ; British Lion, Quebec. Off Port— Susan Bahia. Sailed—Pem Africa ; Solomorni o , C or f u; Amalthea ' Calcutta ; Flora de Pangue, Rio J ane i ro ; Eli za Jenkins, Monte Video ; Buen Jesus, and Josefina, Ha yannafi.—The Persia, arri ve d off this place, is reported to have been ashore off Holyhead. GLourcRsTRR July 11.—Arrived—Intrin s i c , an d )leCocker liConstantin'o ; Panelope, Balamba rs , S ca l e N ova ; Earl of Glasgow, Kirkby • Oran Heinru n , Od essa ; D ream, Cocker ills, and Sea Serpent, Galatz. NEWPORT, Jul ; pau T iaa o.—Wind, W.N.W. S a il e d —Strive, New York § CARDIFF, July niaiiwie _t. Thomas'. i St. nd, W.N.W. A rr i ve d—Pilgrim, Rio Janeiro John's, .B. nor Caractecus, Panama ; Bouin a , ; N Con Orleans ; Jane Cummins, San tander ; Penelope, Cap put iuleFriends, of and for Lon- LOWESTOFFE, .lily 11, _pe e d Hope. eSLanajn :r i u u n ak d i ri n f g t e d in the rocks water, having AfSi from assistedN o S S e a, offh a Ju l eh l s . —° 1 ra T h e yesterday, but has been got off without a d be o u e n n , SWANAGE, July 9—The Adelaide (sma P u parent damage. meridge, missed stays off St. Alban's nead, k t k o from Kim iug away her mainboom, and has becom e a totrallileccarrY DETßOlT, June 24.—The Challenge (steam from Chicago, burst her boiler, 22d June, killin g ejf crow, and subsequently sunk. The remainder the of the crew and passengers were picked up by the North Star, and brought to this port. QUEBEC, Juno 27.—The St. Joseph (steam-tug), whilst lying at Oliver's-wharf, with the Jessie, of Sligo, inside her, took fire, on th e 25th inst., and set fire to the Jessi e was subsequently cast loose, drifted up the river, fell across the brig Erin, of New Ross, setting fire to her bowsprit and figure-head ; was towed clear, and ultimately burned to the water's edge and sunk. The Jessie was scuttled and sunk, after receiving considerable damage.—The Nor den, which was driven from her anchorage during the violent squall on 30th May, and sunk, off Tibbet's Cove, in 9 fathoms water, has been raised, and towed to Oliver's wharf. ST. PETERSBURGH.— The St. Petersburgh letters are to the 4th of July, but they do not describe any altera tion of the slightest importance in the state of the mar kets. From Odessa the dates are to the 29th of June. A large business in wheat had taken place, at rather higher prices, the purchases being for the Mediterranean —chiefly Genoa and Marseilles. The markets for Rus sian produce today were steady at former quotations. ROllEN.—Letters from Rouen mention that the mar ket for manufactures remained heavy, although the attendance of buyers had slightly increased. lip d par 2 -- d par A d Par d 7 9 4 - 4i 34 - 35 44 ' Ad- hp i - 104 - 114 60 - 70 7 - 8p 2 1 d 15 17 P 1 1 d # d id— lip a d— par 7 8 par — P 1 p par d par 26 28 7 9 4 5 d — par 3 - 41 id — p Ear- - 1 ! i ) d K BANKS. 80 81 a 12b ... - .. i - 1 i - i ... - . id i‘,l o if 49 - 50 .. -- ... d— par 46 48 78 79 84 8i 83 9 St. i 5 al 8 I a: 10 I a: 10 1 25 a] 1 0.61 a] St. io 20 a] 26 a ; 20 20 ; 20 1 11 2oil 2, 2 ° L 1 ° 11 5 . 33 A 2' 10 1 , 20 ,L E SHARES. 92 96 88 - 92 1.07 - 109 - 109 19 —2O a id 6i 6 4 - 41 5 - 5A - 1 S1) - 2-4 - 2 p 144 - 154 204 - 201 34 - 6'i :--- i.io .11 - 113 - 1 p 83 -- 8i 7 , 1 105 -- 107 101 103 103 104 d p 152 154 1154 - 157 31 - 4 p 10 - 11 12 - 8 - 9 10 -10 f P 1150 152 I par 4 116 118 118 122 115 - ii 7 25i - 26} - 11 7... 1 11 10 -10 i 171 -17 i ....... 1 p 14i -15 A par -- i p 251 261 112 114 194 —20 A id par 1 102 - 104 5i - 5g - P FOREIGN. :3 Atitwrp& Rotterdam Belgian East. Junct. 11 Charleroi & Erquelin 0 Dijon and Besnon.. 8 Dutch Rhenish ... all East Indian 5 1 Do. Extension all Gt. Indian Peninsula .0 Gd. Janet. of France !Ol Gt. Westn. of Canada Shares., 2 fsucca and Pistoja, 5 per cent. pref. 5 Luexembourg [0 Do. (Railway) 2 Do 3 Do. (Canal) 2 Do. 6p. cent. prem , 9 Lyons & Mediterran 7i Madras 9 Maria Antonia 0 Do. New 411 Namur & Liege (with at interest dl Do. (ex interest) All Northern of France.. all Do. 201. 3 p. c. Bds.. „ [fmy. B. &Am s . ] all N orwegiamTrnk. Pref 10 Paris and Lyons all Paris and Orleans all Paris and Rouen all Paris and Strasbourg 0 4 Paris Caen& Cherbrg. 7i Quebec & nd Richmond Rouen a Havre 20 all all !, 10 'Sambre and Meuse 4 Do. 5i per cent. pref 4 ;Southern of France !Upper India Scrip a Nest Flanders 8 ;Do. 5i per c. Pref, .0 iWestern of France 2 West of Switzerland 5 (New Zealand,., 4 ld 1 4 14 15 )ar 1p 2 6 p li 14- - 2 p - id -- par -- d 6i -- 7 4 -- 4{ -- id 2i p 7/ = 7i 35 -3. i 14 —l5 8 -- 9 16 -164 p 41 -- 43 36 404 -- 36 4 5 p 4cl p 14 -19 A 7 4 - ip -17 id 3 2d 68 1 12 1598 5i I --- lon i 104 1 1142 151 142 30 20 13i 1 89 ii 90 1 4° 5 I St, 25 5 29 81 71 20 2 3 1 1 1 2i 10 1 1 51 5 1 50 33 25 100 100 20 50 50 100 100 THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JULY 12, 1853. IMPERI. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) NAVAL PROMOTION AND RETIREMENT. The Earl of HARDWICKE rose to call attention to the order in Council of the 25th of June, 1851, bearing upon the promotion and retirement of officers in the navy. He did not wish to make any attack upon the present government, because they had nothing to do with the order in Council in question. When it was issued he stated his objections to it, and he now ventured again to trouble their lordships on the subject. He wished to induce the government to look into the matter with the view either of revising, rescinding, or amend ing the order in Council, in order that justice might be done to the officers of her Majesty's navy. It did not seem right, while the late government held office, until the opinion of the country was taken upon an important question of public policy to alter the order in Council. But if the late government had continued in office, he should have done in the Cabinet what he now proposed to do in their lordships' house —namely, to represent the injustice and inefficacy of the order in Council, first, in regard to the instruction of midshipmen ; secondly, as to lieutenants and commanders : and thirdly, as to post-captains. The regulations regarding the half-pay of officers also required revision. A post-captain, in order to receive the rank of admiral on the active list, must serve for six years in peace, four years in war, or five years in war and peace in a rated ship. That was the sole and entire test of the ability of an officer. The object was to endeavour to place upon the list of admi rals for active service young, active, and intelligent men practised in their profession. If the order in Council produced that effect, he should have no objection to it ; but it was unjust as well as ineffica cious. The injustice was, that however desirous and able an officer might be to serve in a rated ship, the Admiralty did not provide a rated ship for him. An officer might expend the best part of his life in the ser vice, and might serve an apprenticeship under the best officers, but, having attained a certain rank, he might not succeed in getting a ship for six years, and when he arrived at the top of the list the door was shut in his face, and he was liable to be dismissed from active ser vice. On the other hand, another officer, through the accident of getting a rated ship, arrived at the rank of admiral on active service. Then, a rated ship was a term that implied a wide margin, from the smallest fri gate to the highest line-of-battle ship. If an officer had never commanded a line-of-battle ship, and had had no experience in the evolutions of a squadron, he might still, if he had served in a frigate, become an admiral. But another officer, who might have served three years in a frigate, and only two years or one year in a line-of battle ship, where he might become conversant with the practice of evolutions of a squadron or fleet was removed to the reserved list. There was also another point to which he wished to call attention, and which bore upon the civil portion of the service. By these orders in Council any officer having been in command of a dock yard, victualling-yard, or in any civil service under the Crown relating to the navy, was entitled to take his place on the active list, and was competent to command a fleet. The order enacted that the time passed in ser vice might be reckoned as so much sea time passed afloat. He believed, however, that this order in Coun cil, which applied immediately to the dockyards and to the victualling-yards, did not apply to hospitals, and yet, notwithstanding this, three distinguished naval officers, who had served their time as superintend ents of hospitals, were made exceptions to the rule. That apppeared a flagrant act of injustice, because, as he had said before, although there was some doubt on the subject, he did not believe it was intended that the officers at the head of medical establish ments should be allowed to reckon their time, yet the officers to whom he alluded had been so treated, and were continued on the active list. What had been the result of the practice followed since 1851 ? Had the present system, as was intended, produced upon the ac tive list a body of young and active officers who might be supposed, from their youth, to be more energetic and able to command our fleets, and had the result been that on the retired list the names of old officers were found whose years justified and rendered necessary their retirement ? Quite the reverse. The ages of 16 officers on each side produced —on the reserved list 1,027 years, and upon the active list ],038 years, so that there was a small balance against the activity of the active list (a laugh), and it followed that there had been placed upon the active list a larger number of aged officers than upon the retired list. The service of six years in a rated ship could not be any sufficient test of the ability of an officer, because officers might have served within a week or month of that time ; while, on the other hand, you might have an officer pushed on in the service by inte rest, who might have served the required period afloat, and still might not be so efficient a man as the other, who had not served quite so long a period. If their lordships took into consideration the mode in which the navy was governed, it was the very last profession in this country which ought to be regulated by orders in Coun cil of this description. The whole mode of promotions and appointments was objectionable at present, because those promotions and appointments were not made by the board as a board, but were exercised by one individual, the First Lord. By orders in Council of this description you placed the First Lord in the very difficult and painful position, because although, doubtless, as an English gen tleman lie wished to do justice to every one, great sus picion was thrown upon him, let him do whatever lie might and be as just as he could. In the army no such system existed, and if there was retirement it was retire ment by selection of the Crown, and upon intelligible grounds. The recent order in Council was only a repe tition of the order passed in 1827, which, far from being considered just by the service or by the governing power of the day, was thought so unjust to the service that it was repealed, and another substituted in its place. What he would ask the Government to do was, to exa mine the bearings of that order in Council, and to re store to the service the arrangements then effected in stead of those existing at present, which produced no financial advantage to the nation. The order substituted for that of 1827 would effectually meet the case which he had described, and would prevent any govern ing power being placed under circumstances of grew difficulty, and from from having its motives repre sented in a spirit totally foreign to its feelings and in. tentions. The Earl of ABERDEEN said, the noble earl had rightly stated that her Majesty's present Government had not originated the order in Council to which he had alluded, and had also given a reason for not bringing the subject under the attention of the Government of which he himself was a member. He thought he recol lected that at the time this order in Council was issued the noble earl, with some of his friends, had made some observations on the subject. He believed the matter had been considered by the Government at the time, and had also been fully considered by Parliament. Now, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) knew the subject was one upon which much difference of opinion prevailed in the naval profession, and he confessed that he himself was not very competent to offer an opinion upon any practical view which the noble earl had taken upon the working of the order in Council. As, therefore, the noble earl had done nothing more than call the attention of her Ma jesty's Government to the subject, he would, without offering any opinion or coming to any conclusion himself, simply engage that his right hon. friend at the head of the Admiralty should give the subject his full conside ration, and he had no doubt that ultimately a decision would t be arrived at which would give some satisfaction to the noble earl. The Earl of HADDINGTON had long been of opi nion that the matter was one which needed consideration, but it was a subject of very considerable difficulty in deed, and it was more easy to point out defects in the existing system than to devise a remedy for those defects. He doubted whether under any general orders or regu lations whatever, cases of hardship might not occur. He knew an instance in which an officer who had served five years and a certain number of months in a rated ship was then put upon the retired list. He had pre viously at the desire of the Government of the day, con tinued for a considerable time to serve in a sloop, and, if he had been allowed to count that service in the sloop, he would not have been put upon the retired list. That he thought was a case of great hardship. (Hear.) The subject then dropped. TRANSPORTATION OF OFFENDERS BILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR, in moving the second reading of this bill, regretted that there was a necessity, at the present day, to introduce a bill of that description. He did not treat lightly the advantage of transportation as a secondary punishment. His experience in criminal courts had convinced him that transportation answered the end of punishment better than anything else that could have been devised. (Hear, hear.) It had all the main ingredients of secondary punishments ; it had a maximum in apprehension and a minimum in endur ance ; it excited great terror, without, perhaps, eventu ally inflicting great pain, and he knew not what they could look to better. If the United Kingdom alone were concerned, he should have deprecated the removal of transportation from the statute-book, to any great degree, as a punishment for crime. Its terrors operated to prevent the commission of crime, and those who had committed it were afforded the best chances of reforma tion. But we were bound also to consider the interests of our numerous colonies, which realised much more truly than before the observation that we were at the head of an empire on which the sun never sat. The question was, whether for our own social advantage, we were to persevere in getting rid of the criminal popula tion of the United Kingdom at the expense of those co lonies where we had been hitherto in the habit of sending them. The opinion of thoso colonies having been in an unmistakable manner manifested against receiving any mo:e convicts, we must, sooner or later, discontinue send ing them there. At present the colony which had been our grand depob for convicts, Van Diemen's Land, had signi fied great reluctance to receive anymore ; and the Govern ment,their only forthe reasons stated in th e l a t e d e b a t e , h a d acceded to their requ es t. Th e ques ti on arose, w h at number could be se n t t o t h e on l y colony, Western Australia, which was still willing t o rece i ve th em . Th at po i nt ascertained, course was to determine which of those to take ia offe n d ers whom they had been in the habit of tran sporting s h ould continue to be sent out. Treating tran extefftofrecmapittbale pbuenttisehmm,eanat,itall were,the ocewli do aass or m a i n b a l e l t class e re e a e s i v e largereceive. Ita number b e impossible aas th e colony t Nvas ascer tain that number with absolute accuracy, but it might be assumed at from 800 to 1,000 annually. Then came the question—from which s e t o f conv i cts t h e punish ment of transportation should be removed ? Undoubt edly from those who were in the eye of the law the l eas t culpable. The returns for 1851 showed that there were sentences, to transportation in England and Wales 2,892 convicts, including 56 who were capitally con victed, but whose punishment was commuted to tran sportation. Of these 1,562 were sentenced to seven years only, leaving 1,330 sentenced for longer terms, practically for ten years and upwards. Scotland and Ireland produced nearly, b u t not qu i te, the same num lAMENT• ben—in all, about 2,400 or 2 , 500 . Not abo - v e one-third of those could be received in Westem Australia; and it would be a very unwholesome state of the criminal law, if, of the large number sentenced to transportatior, everybody should know that there were two chances out of three that the sentence would not be carried into execution. (Heal.) To aN 0 . .. d this, they must go a step further, and remove transportation from a still larger number. There were none for periods between 10 and 14 years ; he only remembered one case of a man sen tenced for twelve years, and there were probably not half-a-dozen such cases in a year. Nearly all above ten were sentenced to fourteen years or upwards. Deduct. ing from 1,330 the number sentenced for ten years only, there remained 435 sentenced for fourteen years and upwards in England and Wales. Taking the same proportion for Ireland and Scotland, the total was about 800. This left a little margin within the number the colony would be able to receive ; but as, hitherto, the discretion of the judges had led many who were liable to 14 years or longer being only sentenced to 10, and as this would not be the case under the altered state of the law, the number sentenced for the longer period would probably be rather increased. He therefore thought that they should only leave as subjects for transportation, those who were now liable for 14 years and upwards, including cases of receiving stolen goods, outrages, assaults on the person, attempts to do grievous bodily harm, house breaking, burglary, cattle stealing, and matters of that sort. The only remaining question was, what should be substituted as a punishment for the remainder. It had been the practice for some time, for a great number of those sentenced to transportation, not to be transported. Instead of this they were imprisoned for a certain time on the separate system, were then em ployed on public works, and then, after a certain time, were either transported or not. At present, a prisoner sentenced to 15 years' transportation might be employed all that time on the public works ; but in point of prac tice it had never been done. The only effectual course would be to pass upon those who would otherwise have been transported, a sentence as little varied as possible from that which had been usual. The course had been always this : where a party was sentenced seven years, ordinarily speaking, he was imprisoned for a year ; then he was sent to the public works for one or two years, either to the hulks, Dartmoor, Portland Island, Pem broke, or other places; and then he was sent abroad with a ticket of leave. This, unfortunately, could be done no longer. He had endeavoured to come as near as possible to it. Those who would have been trans ported for seven years, were now to b e k ep t i n pena l servitude for a term of four years; those transported for 10 years would undergo a penal servitude of six years ; those for 15, one of eight ; and those above 15, one of 10 years. The bill then went on to explain that the persons so sentenced would be liable to be dealt with—after their service on the public works they were to be sent to any place either in or out of the kingdom, including Bermuda, Malta, or Gibraltar. The question lay in a very narrow compass. Two propositions were to be established—what number of convicts they could continue to send to the colonies, and how they could beA deal with those who were not so sent. He had had one or two communications urging him to do no thing in this matter, on the ground that there were statutes in existence enabling the Crown not to trans port those who had been sentenced to transportation. This would certainly enable the Crown to make a selec tion of those to be sent to the colonies ; but weighing the advantages and the disadvantages together, it seemed to him a very scandalous thing that sentence of transportation should be passed upon 5,000 people at the various sessions and assiaes, when it was well known that not 1,000 would be transported. (Hear.) That was an inconvenience which outweighed almost every other that could be suggested. Earl GREY did not intend to oppose the second read ing, for, although he concurred in thinking that trans portation was the most useful secondary punishment they possessed, he was bound to admit it had already been decided that its use, at least to a great extent, should be discontinued. He agreed that they o ug ht t o bring the pr ac ti ce as near l y as poss ible to the rigid en forcement of the sentences actually passed ; and there fore something of the kind proposed by his noble and learned friend must be adopted, because there was nothing else that they could adopt except what was called in the bill " penal servitude." At the same time, he had been greatly disappointed that the noble and learned lord had not given a fuller explanation of the manner in which her Majesty's Government intended to deal with this most difficult of difficult subjects • and he felt, moreover, that some of the provisions of the bill were open to objection. He should have liked, in the first place, to have been told what was the course that the Government intended to adopt with respect to ex tending the existing prisons at Portland and Dartmoor, or what new prisons were intended to be formed. He should have liked to have had some calculation given the house of the expense to be incurred, and also to have been informed whether the Government had already begun to take the necessary measures to provide for the disposal of the convicts who were no longer to be trans ported. Above all, he had anticipated that the noble and learned lord would have satisfied the house upon a point upon which many questions had been asked by himself (Earl Grey) and other noble lords, when the sub ject was last before them, namely, what was to be done with the convicts who, under the existing law and prac tice, had been taught to expect, that, at a given period, they would he released from the severities of Dartmoor and Bermuda ? In the course of one of the first conver sations which had taken place upon the subjcot this 6eS sion, he (Earl Grey) had stated his opinion that there would be between 3,000 and 4,000 of such persons to be disposed of during the present year. The noble duke (the Duke of Newcastle) contradicted him on that occa sion, and said that the real number would not be much more than half that. Of course he (Earl Grey) bowed to the noble duke's superior information ; but he had after wards moved for returns upon the subject ; and really, with those returns in his hand, he could not now see how his calculation could have been wrong. The total number of convicts removed to the Australian colonies with tickets of leave last year had been 3,735, and the year before 3,182 ; and he was aware of no cause in operation to reduce that number. On the contrary, the natural pre sumption was that it had not yet reached the maximum, and there had in fact been a progressive increase during the previous years. (Hear, hear.) When he (the noble earl) was Secretary of State, he wrote to the different colonies telling them that they would not be permitted to send convicts any longer to the penal settlements, and he advised them, therefore, to endeavour to improve their system of secondary punishments. Amongst the measures he recommended to them for that purpose was a plan of the kind he had described; and that was adopted by the Legislature of Barbadoes. The system had been found to answer extremely well there, and he did not see any reason why it would not work as well in the mother country. He would not trouble their lordships with any further remarks upon the bill, except to say that although he had asked many noble lords if they understood the 12th clause, he had not succeded in find ing one that could do so. That clause proposed to enact that transportation should include "banishment beyond the seas." What did that mean 2 The LORD CHANCELLOR explained that the clause had been inserted, because he had found that by the Scotch law there were some few offences that were punishable by "banishment beyond the seas." Lord BROUGHAM greatly regretted that transpor tation was about to be in any large degree abolished, because it possessed many advantages which belonged to no other secondary punishment whatever. In the first place, it was as easily apportionable to the offence as any secondary punishment could be. In the next, it had a reformatory tendency, which no other punishment possessed to an equal extent. Thirdly, it bad ter rors which no other system could inspire ; and, lastly, it relieved the community from a number of offenders, the turning loose of whom upon society he could not contemplate without some apprehension. It appeared from the valuable work of the noble earl who bad last spoken, entitled, "The Colonial Policy of Lord J. Russell's Administration," that there were no fewer than 48,000 persons in the different colonies who origi nally were sent out under sentence of transportation. Forty-eight thoesand convicts withdrawn from society, and in some degree reformed, or, at all events, prevented from contaminating the community—that, at all events, was a fact which greatly increased, in no small degree, his regret and alarm at the discontinuance of transpor tation. (Hear, hear.) H owever, i t was a goo d o ld maxim that when they could not have what they liked, they must try to like what they had, and that ought to induce them to cherish, with a view to improving as much as possible, the system of secondary punishments which they already possessed. He thought there was a great deal of sound sense in the recommendation of the noble earl (Lord Grey), and that some such modification as the noble earl had described ought to be introduced into the plan proposed by the Government. No doubt it was quite true that at present a great anomaly did exist, and that it was necessary to terminate it as soon as possible. At the same time, it was equally desirable to retain the good that did result from the present prac tice. Whatever system of secondary punishments might be substituted in the place of transportation, his anticipations regarding its effect in deterring others from the commission of crime were, lie confessed, ex tremely small. According to his view, prevention was that to which a law giver would direct his attention, and if ho were to state that education was one of the best preventives, he should only be stating that which now-a-days was an unfruitful truism. He considered, however, infant training as the most im portant of all preventives. The criminal population consisted !of a certain proportion of the entire popu lation, and if they had a sufficient number of infant training schools for the children of the criminal popula tion, they would bo adopting one of the most effectual means they could to prevent crime. Another requisite was a good police. One great objection to the extension and improvement of the police was the expense. He believed the expense would be cheerfully borne. An other was the distrust which might be thereby occa sioned, but which he believed would be confined to the dishonest part of the community, Another means of prevention was reformatory institutions. That had been tried in this country, in a town in Warwickshire, and it had been found there to be very successful. He trusted that Government would consider there various means of prevention, and adopt them as far as prac ticable. The Duke of NEWCASTLE regretted, in common with other noble lords who had spoken, the necessity of reducing the punishment of transportation to its mini mum. He concurred with them in the advantage of the present system. There seemed, however, to be an agreement on all hands that out of regard to our colo nies it was necessary to reduce this punishment. He hoped that out of this evil good might yet come, for lie could not help thinking that, with the cessation rof transportation to the extent to which it was now carried, the Government and the whole inhabitants of the coun try would turn their attention to the improvement of our penal system. Re did not anticipate that this bill now on the table would be by any means the last that would be brought in on the subject. The noble earl ob jected to limiting the term of transportation. The reason was twofold. In the first place, those who had watched the progress of penal servitude, as it was called by this bill, were of opinion that the time now allotted would be too great for the endurance of criminals, and would be a much heavier amount of punishment than that for which it was substituted. In the second place, as their lord ships were aware, sentences of seven years' transporta tion had not been ordinarily carried into effect, but the convicts had been liberated after three years' punish ment. Two years was the minimum, but three years was the average. It was proposed by this bill to award four years, which was in effect a year longer than a no minal seven years' transportation. At the same time it was worthy of consideration whether they should not in the first instance award a heavier punishment, with a power to the executive to shorten the period as a reward for good conduct. Another suggestion by the noble earl was whether the ticket of leave system, which had worked so well in the colonies, might not work well in this country. The attention of Government had been turned to that point, and his noble friend on the wool sack would make a proposition respecting it on going into committee. One difficulty was whether the con victs should have tickets of leave given them to live under surveillance in any part of the country, or whether they should be permitted themselves to select their re sidence in any part of the country, or in any particular county or district. That was under consideration. Public works which were now going on, defensive works and harbours of refuge, facilitated a measure of that kind. His noble friend (Earl Grey) asked what was proposed to be done with regard to those criminals who had already been sentenced to transportation, and to whom promises had been made by announcements hung up in the prisons, that they should be sent to the colo nies with tickets of leave. He thought his noble friend at the head of the Government had already answered the question, but he would repeat that if this bill passed in the form in which it now stood, they would suffer no longer punishment in the prison than was provided to future prisoners. That would apply only to culprits in the prison to whom promises had been made. They had accumulated, but were no longer increasing, as the pro mises were withdrawn as soon as it was ascertained that the punishment of transportation was to cease. With regard to the capability of the prisons to hold an in creased number of prisoners, he apprehended there would be no difficulty, and that it would not be ne cessary to incur any expense before Parliament met next year. Lord CAMPBELL cordially supported the second reading of the bill. The principle of the bill he took to be to make law and practice correspond. There had been for years past a lamentable discrepancy between them, which had rendered the administration of justice painful on many occasions. He himself, when called called upon to pass sentence, had felt inwardly that it was a mockery. This bill substituted reality for fiction. When he said he approved of the bill, it must be under the well understood protest, that this was not the re quiem of transportation. Transportation on its present scale could not continue. He had never said that we could continue to force convicts on Van Diemen's Land, but he had said and should ever say that transportation, in the language of his noble friend, who opened this discussion, was the best secondary punishment that ever was invented. And when he agreed to this bill, it must be understood to be without prejudice to the Govern. ment using efforts still to continue transportation. At the present time they would only have Western Aus tralia, but he thought new places might be found. He was told by those conversant with the subject, that there were other spots on the great continent of Australia to which they might advantageously send convicts, and it might be done to the Falkland Islands. He hoped that Government would use their best efforts to continuo transportation in that way. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped that there would be some clearer statement as to what was to be done with the convicts to whom promises had been made, because he understood that from 800 to 1,200 would be let loose upon society in this country. The bill was then read a second time. CHANCERY SUITORS RELIEF BILL. This bill passed through committee. SAVINGS BANKS ANNUITY BILL. The house went into committee on this bill. The clauses were agreed to after a brief conversation, in which Earl Powis, Earl Granville, and the Lord Chancellor took part, and the house having resumed, the bill was reported forthwith. The Bishop of OXFORD presented a petition from Bang praying their lordships to reconsider the laws re specting Scotch ordinations. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarterpait eight o'clock. HOUSE OF COIVIMONS--(YESTERDAY.) The house resumed at six o'clock. Lord John Russell was amongst the earliest in attend. ance, and appeared perfectly recovered from his late ill. ness. THE IRISH SOAP DUTY. Mr. DAVISON, pursuant to notice, asked the Secretary of the Treasury, whether the Government meant to per severe in their contemplated measure of prohibiting for ono year, from the sth of July instant, the Irish manu facturer of soap from exporting soap to England, whilst the English manufacturer was to be permitted to export soap to Ireland during that period, to the manifest injus tice of the Irish trade ? Mr. WILSON replied that the notice prohibiting the export of Irish soap for a year after the reduction of the duty, had been given in consequence of its having come to the knowledge of the Government that extensive prepara tions for the manufacture of the article were going for ward, as it was supposed for the purpose of obtaining the drawback on exportation. The warning which his notice conveyed to the Irish soap makers had however been suffi cient ; and a very small increase in the quantity made for exportation had taken place • and it was no t th ere f ore intended to delay the operatlon of the bill in regard to Ireland beyond the period originally intended. IMPROVEMENTS IN ARMY CLOTHING AND ACCOUTREMENTS. Lord W. GRAHAM asked the Secretary-at-War who ther any measures were in progress, or under consideration, for altering the dress, or diminishing the weight of the accoutrements of the infantry soldier ? Mr. S. HERBERT stated that several suggestions had been made with the view of improving the dress and re ducing the weight of the accoutrements of the army, and the attention of Lord Seaton having been called to the subject, he had instituted some experiment s as t o whether any alteration could be made with advantage in reference t D the nature of the accoutrements and the weight to be carried, and there was reason to hope that those experi ments would result in a reduction of the weight of the aims and kit, and in other improvements. (Hear.) THE FRIENDLY SOCIETIES' ACT (IRELAND). Mr. DAVISON, referring to the refusal of the Attorney- Gaaeral for Ireland to register an Odd Fellows Society under the Friendly Societies' Act, on the ground that it was a secret society, asked whether any measure was in coitemplation to place Odd Fellows lodges in Ireland in the same position as other benefit societies Sir J. YOUNG replied that his attention not having been drawn to the point, he had had no communication with the law officers of the Crown in Ireland in reference to it. PETERBOROUGH ELECTION Mr. G. W. FITZ WILLIAM inquired of the hon. mem ber for Manchester whether he intended, in accordance with his notice, to bring under the attention of the house a petition he had presented some timo back, from certain electors of Peterborough, complaining of the exercise of undue influence at the election for that borough in No vember last ; and if so, when ? Mr. BRIGHT said that the reason he had not brought the question before the house was that an accident, the particulars of which he need not detail, had prevented his receiving the necessary information on which to found a motion for an inquiry as he proposed. In a day or two he hoped to be able to renew the notice. RUSSIAN OCCUPATION OF MOLDAVIA AND ----....................aa....r....m.•• the Isle of Aran customs duties. He had seen deputations from the House of Keys since Friday, and haviir, heard their statement s , h ad prepared a Treasury minute an swer, showin g th at they had greatly misunderstood the object of the Government proposition, and until full op portunity had been given to consider that minute he did not intend to proceed with the measure. THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. Sir J. PAKINGTON said he understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have stated that the committee on the India Bill should conclude at a certain hour that evening, and then that the report on the Succession Duties Bill should be brought up. He wished to know at what hour that course woculd be taken ? Lord J. RUSSELL—that depended on whether the re port on the Succession Bill was to be received without dis cussion or not. If there was to be any discussion it had better not be brought on at a late hour. Sir J. PAKINGTON said it was the intention of an hon. friend of his to move an amendment on the bringing up of the report. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to intimate that the Succession Bill could not be brought on. THE INDIA BILL. The house then went into committee on this bill. On clause 3, Mr. V. SMITH rose to propose an amendment to the clause. He hoped he might entreat the attention of the house, for the reason that they were placed in an awkward and unusual position in the discussion of this measure. Complaints had been made against the Government for not bringing it on earlier, but he thought there was more just cause to complain of the Ministry of 1850, who did not pro pose the appointment of a committee like that which was appointed in 1830. (Hear, hear.) Some little blame was also to be laid on gentlemen opposite, on their mode of opposing the bill. The noble lord the member for Lynn moved an amendment asking for delay in legislating, and the result was, that the discussion on the question of delay was mixed up with the question of the second reading, and they had never really discussed the principle of the second reading. He, therefore, made no apology to the house for now inviting them to a discussion on the prin ciple of the measure. The question which was decided the other night was whether they would go into the conside ration of the bill, and he had voted for going into that con sideration. Another question was what was called the question of double government. He agreed with the noble lord the member for Lynn that no phrase was ever invented with less meaning. It was, in fact, invent e d by the enemies of th e sys t em, as i t implied a confused govern ment. But it really was a mixed government, with an in dependent body acting as a check on the power of the crown. That body should, therefore, be really independent if it was to be such a check, and to make it so was the ob ject of his amendment. He did not wish to counteract the principle of the bill, but to carry it fully into effect. With regard to his (Mr. V. Smith's) amendment, the vote would be taken on the omission of the words, " her Majesty by warrant under the royal sign manual," and he proposed to insert the words, " the Court o f Di rec t ors by warrant from her Maj es ty under the royal sign manual, countersigned by the President of the Board of Control, shall appoint.' The honourable member for Montrose said this would be a mode of self-election ; no doubt it would be, but with the qualification that they would be men who had been ten years in India. This selection was limited to the appointment of three fourths of the court, and excluded directors and ex-direc tors, and if it was thought advisable, he would have no objection to limit the choice to those who had returned from India within a given period. With regard to the opinions and authorities on this point, he might state that Lord Hardinge had said that he thought that for every two directors put into the court by the proprietors, there might be one put in by the court itself, taken from mem bers of the Indian service. Mr. Halliday, that valuable Indian servant, hesitated about giving his opinion on the English government of India, but, on being pressed, said that he had heard it proposed that the Indian directors should be nominated partly by the Crown direct Ors, and partly by the holders of Indian stock ; but he inclined to the mode of election as it at present existed, but with one third or one-fourth chosen by the directors themselves. The same opinion was expressed by Mr. Marshman, who thought that p ar t o f the court should be elected b y' the directors themselves, the minist er f or I n di a h av i ng a " veto" on th e nomination. In the plan proposed the only object seemed to him (Mr. V. Smith) to be to insert nomi nees into the direction, so that by degrees they might b e the means of superseding the Court of Directors altoge ther. It was as it were getting in the small end of the wedge. He did not mean to say that was his right hon. friend's intention, because if it had been he would have declared it ; but other persons might take up that princi ple, and it was on that ground that he (Mr. V. Smith) ob jected to it. The right hon. gentleman then proceeded to say that he w as d ec id e dl y i n f avour of a mixed govern ment, which, cumbrous as it appeared, was a better colo nial government for India than the government of any other colony, and was far superior when compared with the government of any colony where there was a native population. It was on behalf of a mixed government that lie asked their votes, and it was because he believed that the system of nominees would destroy the power of the °heck which the Court of Directors was intended to be that he moved his amendment. The right hon. gentleman then moved to omit in the clause the words, " It shall be law ful for her Majesty by warrant under the sign manual to appoint," in order to substitute the words " The Court of Directors by the consent of her Majesty under her royal sign manual, countersigned by the Pre s id en t o f t h e Board of Control, to appoint, " &c. Sir C. WOOD thought it would be more convenient for the committee to avoid a general discussion on the past Government of India, and other topic s i n t ro d uce d b y hi s right hon. friend, which did not bear on the precise ques tion raised, and to which he proposed to confine himself. They had agreed the double government should be main tained, and all that they had to decide was in what shape certain persons should enter the Court of Directors, An. other point had been agreed on—namely, that by some other means than election by the Court of Proprietors a certain portion of the future courts should be introduced into it. The evidence that had been received went strongly to point out a great defect in the constitution of the Court of Directors—namely, that the ablest men--men of the highest character and experience among Indian servants— were deterred by the arduous and expensive system of canvassing from offering themselves as candidates for the direction; and it was apparent, from the concurrent evi dence of many witnesses, that by some means or other a portion of the cour t s h ou ld b e se l ected from such men. In order to simplify the question, he would conc e d e th a t one third of the court sh o ld be in troduced either by selection or nomination, and the question was, whether it should be done by such a selection as was proposed by his right hon. friend, or by nomination by the Crown. His right hon. friend had raised an objection td the mode adopted by the Government on the ground that the persons to be appointed were nominees. It, was not until after great deliberation, that it was decid e d t o a d op t th a t p l an. I f the Court of Directors were to be independent, it was the interest of the Government to make them so. They might be wrong in the mode of doing that they had adopted. He admitted it was a fair subject for discussion, but he still thought that the plan chosen by the Government was the best calculated to preserve the independence of the court. His right hon. friend said that self-election by the board was objectionable, and he (Sir C. Wood) thought so too, as it would tend to destroy the independent action of the court. It should always be an object to treat a min ority with respect ; and, practically, to leave to a minority a certain amount of check over a majority; and obviously the scheme of the right hon. gentleman would have the effect of placing in the hands of the majority a power to sink and crush the minority by the overwhelming introduction of their own partisans. That, certainly, would be the result ; and only to a very limited ex tent indeed would the veto of the Crown be of use in preventing such an evil. With regard to what the right honourable gentleman had said of the dangers of the proposal of the Government occasioning dissensions between the directors and the Board of Control, all he (Sir C. Wood) could sa y was, th at h e d i d not foresee that dan ger, and that, at any rate, he was quite sure the plan of the right hon. gentleman would be far more productive of such mischief. Supposing that the minority in the court, and that the Board of Control were on one side , and the majority of the court aga inst the Board of Control, , then dissensions could not buarise when the majority increased its strength. (So we understood the right hon. baronet, but it was, as usual, difficult in the gallery to catch his precise meaning.) In this respect the plan proposed by the Government was greatly superior, for the sole object of the Board of Control would be to select men of marked qualifications, and such appointments would 'consequently in each case be decided upon without reference to the state of retrties or cliques in the Court of Directors. The right hon. gentleman had said a good deal with respect to the possible dependence of these nominee directors on the Go vernment. He (Sir C. Wood) did not believe that any such dependence would ever exist. The sole object of the Government would be to get men of first-rate capacity, knowledge, and experience; and certainly they were not to look for such men to the classes of retired Indian ser vants who might consent to act as manageable tools to the Minister in the House of Commons. Undoubtedly, it was his opinion, that the Government of the day, which would make such appointments, would be guilty of betraying its high and sacred trust in the most disgraceful manner. He did not agree with his right hon. friend on the question of salary. In talking on that head, he (Sir C. Wood) had always contemplated low amounts; and his notion was that the emoluments of the office ought not to be such as to make it on that ground a matter of petitioning to the Government. He wanted the office to be sought for on other grounds. The office was held now for little or no salary, and he only proposed to raise the salary a small degree higher ; and he believed that by low salary this, among other results, would be produced—that the men who would accept the office would be of independent character and position. He also differed with the right hon. gentleman in regard to the contingency of. English party politics being mingled in the practical adminis tration of Indian affairs. He did not think it very likely that gentlemen arrived in England after long service in India, and still devoted to Indian questions and wrapt up in Indian interests would easily get engulphed in purely English politics ; and, assuredly, if there was one fact more clearly made out than another in the evi dence taken by the committee, it was this—that the civil service of India was totally free from the feelings aroused by party contentions in England. He therefore did not fear that Governments here, in the men they selected, would make party choices ; but even if there was that danger, it was to be remembered that the evil would in some measure cure itself, since, consequent upon our rapid changes, one Government would be enabled to counteract the party influence which might be introduced by another. Unanimity in the directors was not likely, and he thought it was not desirable that there should be but one party in the court any more than it was desirable that there should be but one party in that house. And if the apprehensions of his right friend that there would be party struggles were well founded, the more reason there was that it should not be put in the power of a majority to select one third of the court from among its own partisans. The Government did not propose that there should be any dif ference in position and authority between the two classes of directors, the elected and the nominees ; and as both would be directly, and in the first place, guided by their Indian habits and feelings, he did not see what likelihood there was that those selected by the Crown would stand out from their own body as dependent tools of the Board of Control. On the whole he was sure this part of the scheme would work satisfactorily ; and he believed it would prove that the highest and most illustrious names in the Indian service—even such a name as Mountstuart Elphin stone—need not disdain the acceptance of such nomineeship by the Crown. The safety for India and for the Court of Directors, and for this country was, that it was so m uch the interest of the Government to appoint first-class men, second-class, and possibly dependent men were not likely ever to get the office ; and on that ground he asked the committee to reject the amendment. Mr. HERRIES was understood to say that ho found his own views on this point very accurately expressed in the amendment, which ho would accordingly support, rejoicing that the opposition to this part of the Government plan was initiated on the ministerial side of the house. He did not see how it would be possible for a body constituted as the _ court would be under this bill, to work harmoniously' together. It was all very well to talk of low salaries and high characters, but it was palpable that the office would be greatly sought after, and it was as palpable that the ten dency of the men appointed would be to support the mini ster to whom they were indebted for the post. The effect of the introduction of non-elected men into the court would be to lower the character and prestige of the elected body; for, pro tank), it was a declaration by Parliament that the proprietors did not elect the best men ; while, on the other hand, there would always be the suspicion attaching to the nominees that they were mere Government partisans, so that, on the whole, the whole body would suffer in public estimation. Very likely their legislation led to the com plete deprivation of the holders of stock of all power ; but, at least, while the Court of Directors was maintained, let it be maintained in all honour and credit. These were obvious objections to the ministerial plan. They seemed not to have been weighed sufficiently by the right hon. gentleman (Sir C. Wood), and had certainly not yet been removed. He must therefore earnestly beg of her Ma jesty's Government that they would consider this matter. Mr. LOWE argued, from what had occurred in other cases, that a right of sanction would practically become a right of app o i n t men t , and that nothing would be gained by making these directors appear to be elected by the Court of Directors, while they were really nominated by the Board of Control. The effect would be to minimize the responsibility of the President of the Board, while actually leaving the power in his hands. But if the amended plan were worked out as desired, the veto of the Crown would not improve the character of the candidates, unless it were extended to every election until the desired man were presented, and this would amount to Crown nomination. The tendency of things under the act was to increase the influence of the directors, in regard to elec tions, as compared with that of the proprietors ; and it might therefore not be wise to increase this tendency. The object of the measure of Government was to obtain the best men for the directors ; and under the proposed system there would be an emulation between the Crown and the company as to whose directors should do the most credit to their constituents. Mr. ELLIOT did not think that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Lowe) had made out a case to show that the system proposed by Government would render the Board of Direc tors more independent, or its opinion of more authority than at the present moment. It did not appear plain to him that the alterations proposed by the Government would render a seat at the Board of Directors acceptable to that class of men to which the hon. gentleman referred. The number was to be reduced from 25 to 18 ; now, when there were 25 directors, the amount of labour cast upon each was not too onerous ; as, however, the number was to be reduced, more would be cast upon each director than gentlemen in the position adverted to by the hon. member (Mr. Lowe) would be anxious to undertake. If this part of the bill were carried the house would not stop until the government of India would be absorbed by the Crown. The effect of this would be, that the house would continu ally intermeddle in Indian affairs—a thing by no meaust) be desired, for there were not two of its members who really understood the subject. Even those members who had evidently worked hard upon the subject had made state ments which were far from being accurate. Lord STANLEY said that the committee ought to con fine itself to the question immediately before it—that ques tion being whether the plan of the Government or the plan of the right hon. gentleman was best calculated to secure the most efficient and independent men on the Board of Directors. The plan of the right hon. gentleman was that of self election, for which there was n o p rece d en t. Hi s objection to that plan was that it tended to give perma nence, if not perpetuity, to that very system which it was the object of the bill to do away with. Neither did he altogether approve of the Government plan, and he thoughethat, without trenching on the principle on which it was founded, it was susceptible of improvement. When these members were appointed by the crown, and had seats in that house, they would become, he would not say the tools, but the allies of the Government. Now he thought that if these directors wore appointed for a term of ten or twelve years, and were not re-eligible at the end of that period, they would have a sufficient guarantee for their in dependence. (Hear.) He offered this as an improvement on the plan of the Government, which, however, he would support in preference to the plan of the right hon. gentle man. (Hear.) Mr. HUME said he should vote for the principle of elec tion in preference to the principle of nomination, which he was altogether opposed to ; but the election which he should prefer was that kind of election by which the East India Company had been and was now maintained. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Control had so strongly painted all the advan tages which accrued from the system as it stood, that he felt at a loss to understand the reasoning on which he made the proposition in the bill. They might remove the defects which existed in the present system, by making the Court of Directors really responsible to the proprietors, but they had no right to destroy rights which had been secured to the East India Company by the bill of 1833 till 1874. They were giving the president of the Board of Control a greater power than was possessed by her Majesty in this country, because he had the power of making war and spending the revenues of India to any amount without lotting the Court of Directors know any thi ng a b out i t. He thought they should increase the power of the Court of Directors, and compel them to keep a record of those points on which they differed from the Board of Control. (H ear .) Sir J. HOGG said it appeared to him that tho house was agreed as to the expediency of selection which was the principle of the bill. He was sure the sole object of the Government and of the committee was to have those gen tlemen in the Court of Directors who could give the best information on India, and who were best. qualified to dis charge their duties. They must either give the selection to the Crown, or to the Court of Directors. If they gave it to the Crown, what gentlemen would be candidates for the office? Every gentleman who thought himself fit for the appointment would put himself forward as one of the six to be selected. And they would thus narrow and de teriorate the class of men who would come forward as can didates. (Hear, hear.) As fax as his experience of the Court of Directors went, it did not at all accord with the opinions of those persons who expressed so great a horror of the system of canvassing. (Hear, hear.) Did not the members of that house, who spoke of not condescending to canvass, go about themselves at every election to canvass for votes ? (Hear, hear.) And there was this distinction in favour of ,the Court of Directors, that when a member was once elected and discharged his duties with ability, efficiency, and honour, he was elected for life. (Hoar, hear.) Ho could only say for himself and for his colleagues on the board, that if there had been anything; dishonour able or humiliating in the canvass, neither he nor they would have condescended to it. (Hear, hear.) It appeared, to him that there were strong objections to the plan of the Government and also to the plan of the right hon. gentle man, and it was for the committee to determine on which side the balance of advantage lay. Against the nomina tion by the Crown of the six directors the objection was urged, and with some weight, that those directors would be under the influence of the feeling that they were so nominated in the discharge of their duties. But for him. 'self, he felt bound to say that he entertained no such apprehension. He believed that those gentlemen wlio had passed their lives in the civil or military service of India, would, when appointed to a seat in the direction, discharge their duties there honourably, independently, and uninfluenced by any consideration of the persons who ap pointed them. (Hear.) He thought that the suggestion of the noble lord (Stanley) would make the proposition of the Government worse than it was, because it would ex clude those gentlemen from being se-eligible when, from the experience they had acquired, their services would be most useful and beneficial. (Hear, hear.) He under stood the noble lord to say also that he would exclude those gentlemen from sitting in that house, but he did not think that the Government or the committee would ever support a scheme of that kind. He admitted that the principle of self election was also liable to objection, but the Court of Directors must at all events have a better knowledge of the men who were most fit to be appointed than the Presi dent of the Board of Control could possibly have. (Hear, hear.) But whether the appointment rested with the ono or the other, he had no fears on the subject of the practical working of the plan. It was said it was desirable to have such men as Lord Metcalfe and Mountstuart Elphinstone in the board of direction. To be sure it was, and he had no doubt that if either of those gentlemen expressed a wish to be members, they would be elected without canvass on the next vacancy that occurred. (Hear, hear.) But such men as Lord Metcalfe and Mountstuart Elphinstone were not to be picked like blackberries. Sir G. Clerk, who was a m stated ai before of g rea t talent the a lent committeeand distinguished i s t t h i ot e ui s i t h h services been in intimated lndia, t 0 him that if he wished he might be elected to the Court of Directors without a canvass. Heretofore the Court of Directors had been regarded as the fountain of all honours, at least of all appointments, and all the servants of the Company looked up to them on that account. But what would be the case now, when the Court of Directors were themselves partly condemned by having some of their numbers curtailed. (Hear, hear.) They were ex cluded from all the nominations to the higher offices. (Hear, hear.) In the civil service the appointments were to be made by public competition. (Hear, hear.) It was the same with regard to the medical appointments. With re gard to scientific appointments in the engineers and artil lery these were not made by the Court of Directors. With regard to Addiscombe, the pupils there under wen t a half yearly examination and were appointed according to merit. The great mass of youths who had attained the standard which fitted them for the artillery went out as cadets—not as direct cadets but as infantry cadets—and with the ad vantage of a good education. For his own part he con fessed that he wished to see Addiscombe extended ; he wished to see a greater number of young men proceed to India with the advantages of a superior education. Under the bill the whole of their prestige was taken from the Court of Directors, all their patronage was trans ferred to other hands, and the government appeared desirous to make the situation of director as little as pos sible an object of ambition or solicitation. He would urge the government to make the office of director as important as they could. A salary 5001. a-year was not half so much as one given to a commissioner of customs or excise ; and he did hope that either by position, by influence, or by salary—by some means or other, the office of director would bo made an object of honourable ambition to emi nent men who had returned from India. Mr. C. BRUCE said it appeared to him that there was no clause in the bill which would lead more directly or more distinctly to the extinction of the Court of Direc tors, and of the system of government which had hitherto o preserved India to this coun t r y, th an th e clause then under consideration, The s p eec h o f hi s honourable friend this rash and tinkering treatment of India. (Sir J. Hogg) had cl ear ly p rove d the disadvantage of hear.) of a A nd gr t e h at e d o e b a s l ta li c u le l w b h ee ic n h - sa it id p a r b e o se u n t t t e h d e o evl m ls e onf of f a e n m v a i s n m e n n g e e , who wished to attain the office of director. Ho could not see the force of the objection, and for his own part, he would rather canvass such a body as the Court of Pro prietors than wait about the Board of Control. ('fear, hear.) It seemed to be forgotten that the Court of Pro prietors had the great advantage of not being a political body; and the plan of nomination would, in his opinion, take away that quality. When the number was reduced to 18, and the Goverment had six nominees, there would be an end of all hope of seeing the directors act as an effectual check on the Government at home. What was wanted was a body as free as possible from political bias— a body which would have a single eye to the good government of India, and which would not blindly follow the leading of the President of the Board of Control • and such a body could not exist under the operation of ? this clause. The clause would, in fact, aggravate an hundred fold the despotic system of government which prevailed in India. Public opinion could not check it for want of adequate information ; the House of Commons could not usefully exercise controlling functions; the Ministry could not be trusted in the matter because it was liable to con stant change. He would trust no ministry with the power and patronage of India. Let him not be told that there was no cause for apprehension in times of Parliamentary government. He had not forgotten how Lord Heytesbury was recalled in 1835. Lord Heytesbury was appointed Governor-General by Sir Robert Peel, his baggage was on board, his suite had embarked. In this state of things a Whig Government succeeded to that of Sir Robert Peel ; the appointment of Lord Heytesbury was cancelled, aild a WALLACHIA. Mr. DISRAELI—I wish, sir, to ask two questions of the noble lord opposite relating to the present state of affairs in the East, and I will put them separately, in order that I may be more explicit. The first relates to a document which has reached this metropolis to-day, and which bears the title of a " Circular dispatch addressed to the diploma tic agents of the Court of St. P e t ers b urg h , " and is signed by Count' Nesselrode. It is stated in that " circular dispatch" that the occupation of the principalities by the Russian force has been occasioned as much by the naval occupation of the Turkish waters by the combined fleets of England and France as by the refusal of the Sultan to give that satisfaction which the Emperor of Russia demands ; and it says that he will not retire from those principalities until complete satisfaction is accorded to him by the Sul tan, and until also the combined fleets of England and France shall have left the ports of the Sultan which they at present occupy. Now, sir, what I wish to know from the noble lord is whether a copy of that " circular dispatch" has been presented to her Majesty's Government; and, if not, then I wish to know whether it is the opinion of her Majesty's Government that that "circular dispatch" is an authentic document? (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—With regard to the document to which the right honourable gentleman alludes, I have to say that, in the last dispatch I saw from the British Mini ster at St. Petersburgh, Sir Henry Seymour says that he had not then seen the dispatch that is allowed to have , boon written by Count Nesselrode. No doubt, substan tially, the " circular dispatch" which the right honourable gentleman has seen, as p u blished in the public journals, is an authentic document. I will not enter into the par. ticulars to which the right honourable gentlemen has re ferred; I will merely say that Ido not think, in the first place, that the Russian Government can in any way su b. stantiate the fact that the entry of the Russian troops int o the principalities was occasioned by the sailing of the English fleet into the waters of the Porte. (Cheers.) N or did I understand from my reading of the docu ment that it contained any declaration that the matters pending be tween Russia and Turkey could not be arranged until the English and -French fleets should have left the Turkish waters. (Hear.) REPORTED AUSTRIAN OCCUPATION OF BOSNIA. Mr. DISRAELI—The other question I have to ask the noble lord is—has her Majesty's Government received any official intimation as to the reported occupation of Bosnia by the army of Austria? Lord J. RUSSELL—No, we have not received any official intimation of that nature, and indeed the Austrian Minister has communicated to Lord Clarendon his total disbelief of any such fact having occurred. (Hear.) He says he believes that the report has been owing to the oc cupation, by Austrian troops, of Peterwaradin, which is a fortified town within the Austrian territory. (Hear.) THE ISLE OF MAN CUSTOMS DUTIES. In reply to a question from Sir J. WALMSLEY, Mr. WILSON stated that he did not intend to proceed at present with the resolutions in the paper in reference to li i 1 lc bonus 231 1 49A x d & bonus 6i l l al 20 al St. ft St. 11l St. 111 101 , 64a] St. 1 , St. i i St. 1 1 16 St. 1 4. 11 St. 1 to 1 k. F tO 12i 121 254 14 1 12'' St. - 1 , St. 1, 16i 10 St. 11 St. 1.1 St. I I St. i LO St. 11 si: ID 25 I I 1121 U 2/ 10i i 2Q 6 I'~