The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-08 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, TuuusvAT, Er r s. 7. The Duke of BVCIUNGIIAM was introduced. and took the oaths and his seat. llis , Grane's supporters were the Dukes of Wellington and .....geaufort.—The Earl of Ca.wnott also took"-the oaths and his seat, on succeeding to hit . title. STATE OF IRELAND. The:, Earl, or., gave notice that he should move to-morrow that the Standing Orders of the . Hope, Nos . . 9.6iand 10, be -stiapeAded. MarileP/sof L.6lsoowNt: supposed that Noble Earl'anotice %vas:given With .t4e view Of passing:a,6lllto increase the . poWers _of Go,- . 'nv.eritinerst in.lreland. .He should, therefore:, take thfs'opportunity of expressing his Opinio of the papers which the Noble Earl had laid on the table- s us a foundation for the, measure .Which he ; ratended.to propOse. He had understood that the necessity for such a measure was grounded on an, urgent . representation from the Government lieland;of the inefficiency of the existing 1n17 . -; but having - looked attentively at -the contents of those papers; he could' finel -in them no vestige of an opinion' delivered by' the A'larquess himself, or by any of 4.lo74luals,connected with the Irish, Govertie ment, that such .an extension of power wai-re quired. I 1 ,such. a . representation 'had tieen made, before,their Lordships were called 'ttpon to giant increased powers, they ought to be put 'tiny possession of the- fact, rind- to know - that if ' 'they passed . the measure, they passed it on the authority .of -the Government of Ireland. lie should, therefore, ask the Noble Lord to pro f : . duce n if not the whole, at least such parts.of the -dispatches received from the Marquis Wel4 , sley,. -as had led him .to .be satisfied that a necessity -existed for extending the powers of : the Irish - Administrationn and to consider hirnsolfbo - bild .to . nmake the proposal to the• House„ lie was the ,disposed :to nsk_ . this. question cense-, onence of having read . the Papers on the tt.'l_;32.; for if they . shewed a necessity for any .inc: ease, it was for an increase of military power. All the representations made in various 'quarters ..dwelt upon. the want of a military force ; except in one solitary instance, •the Inswrrection Act was not even mentioned. .:It might 1: - e ---the .wish of the people.rin the South of Ireland, and the opinion of the-Lord Lieutenant himself, that the - InSurrection Act should be put in force ; h. • • neither that wish nor that opinion were expreSsee! in the Papers before the House: If they had been communicated to his Majesty's .Govern . • mentiaother documents,evidence.of therm should by produced, and _their, Lordships ought to he possessed of ample Perliametstail information when they were called upon to do -so violent an act as to suspend their.own.Standing 4,arders n fer the.purpose of granting additional powers to the A.doinistration of Ireland. ~The Earl .off4vEapoor, admitted that the opinion of the Irish Government with respect to its, being invested . With conditional powers 'did net appear in the Papers-before the Reuse.— - 4-inthe conceived that the absence of a recordetU opinion was not a- sufficient ground, for with holding those powers. • - It was mot an ordinary - practice to lay such opinions before the House, and on a former occasion Parliament !had passed a similar Bill in 48 hours, without being Put in possession of .an y specific recommendation., In the Present instance the 'measure woeld be passed-on the authority of the Government here„:though he - felt-no hesitation in sayinn. that it came strongly recommended by the.Goyernmept of Ireland, — 'llls recommendation could not be laid before Parliament, • and he would ask the. Noble Mar, quis himself whether it was usual for a Minister ot,the Crown to ground a motion on the recom . mendation of any servant of the. Government, whoever and whatever he might be ? In his ,6p,inion, the public safety required the granting 01. additional powers ; but there- was no desire to take those powers for a greater length of time than the present , Session ; so that , Parliament would retain the faculty ot: discussieg the ques tion fully alter they had been tried, and before consenting to the renewal of a measure, which, at present at least, he considered to be indispens ably necessary. . , Lord Ennexecinountt observed;that although the Papers itefOre the House.spoke of disturb ances in ,the South of. frelend, • not a word was said as to their causes.. Their.-Lordships were therefore so far unacquainted with the• subject, that it was'imposgible.for,thent to ;know whether the measares proposed by-his,Majes.ty's Govern , ment ought not to. be connected ,with_measures of alteration and nonciliationn tending-to remedy evils, as well as to prevent outrage.. All that • was apparent from those Papers was a want o' military force ;. and he could- not but- think it rather.extraprdinary, that when the disturbances. showed themselves, the yeomanry were called: out in the North.of Ireland, where all was tran quil, and not in the :youth, which was the seat of , disorder. Lordlicii.i.A ND contended-that if it not . been the useal ,course to ground a. motion . for. granting additional. powers to the . Government upon .a recorded •opinion, yet; except in the casel , • of.. unfortunate Irelan'd, it , had . been generally done on papers which r if they did, not express a, ' distinct opinion,. made the inference clear and manifest. In,the pipers on the table he cer tainlY saw reasons for an extraordinary measure, that of augmenting .the military force in Ireland, but none for increasing the powers 'of the Go vernment. He found it. stated no where-tbat it was in consequence of the inadequacy of. the laws that the present outrages were . committed, and. ks,,consent would be more, easily wrung from bim .to a military law than they measure first proposed. If any 'thing could ~induce .him to supQorti.sucha measure, it would be the autho rity of the Irish Government, With an explana tion of thO grounds on w hi ch. th e recommendation was founded. The Noble Earl was, therefore, iroing an injustice to his own measure by the course which he had adopted, and ought,' in fair „ness to himself, to submit to the House all the documents on whic4 his .own Conviction was. gri3unded, before, be undertook tbe..unpleasant taik of proposing such a measure, after the union. between the two cc:int:it's alregilyltsteil '22 years. Lord KI NG . ciia Lot untitlstL444.,syhy, the ppi- Ilion of the individuals . ‘!.ho composed • th.t 'Go vernment of Ireland; , ,should s not be giveil. .The Noble Earl said A that -the measore would pais on the responsibility' of Minister s, but, 'in conse= (pence of the mode which he adopted, 'it. Would be impossible to fix the -responsibility any where. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that his notice was only contingent .on the receipt of a Bill which was expected from the other House. lf it :shoOld- not be : -brought 'down to-morrow, he should rescind the t riotice, and renew it for the • . Lord ELLENBOII - OU6I thought it a most extra ordinary proceeding, that the Standing Orders of the tiouse - should be suspended fora Bill, of the nature of which they knew nothing at all.— Adjourned. 1101,1 St ,OF COMMONS. I%e -SrE. 3 / 4 Kga took the chair at ten minutes .o four o'clock. Mr. WILLIAM DUNDAS presinted a Petition from the Magistrates of Edinburgh, complaining of the lax state of the police of that city. _ ' Mr. ABERCROMBY presented a similar Petition from the General Commissioners of the Police of Edinburgh.—Both referred to a Committee. LONDON BRIDGE. _ _ Sir W. CURTIS gave notice, that on Thursday next he would move for a Committee to inquire into the state of Lon don Bridge. Several new Members took the oaths. ILCH ESTER GAOL. _ _ Mr. Alderman WOOD moved, that an Address he pre , rented to the King, praying that the evidence taken before the Commissioners, together with their Report upon the state of Ilchester Gaol, be laid before the Honse. Mr. Alderman WOOD made a siinilar motion for the pro duction of the Report of the Magistrates of Somerset on the same subject.--Ordered. VACCINE BOARD. _ _ Mr. DAWSON mired for an Address to his Majesty. pray ing him to order the' last Report of the Vaccine Board to be laid before the house.—Ordered. CIVIL LIST. Mr. LENNARD gave notice, that he would, on the e2/1 insf:'-move au Addres to the. King; praying him to recom mend to this House a revision 'of and reduction in the seve ral branches of the Civil List.—(Hear). STANDING ORDERS. Upon the motion of Mr. BaonvEN, jhe several Sessional Orderi for the regulation of the business of the House were agreed to. PRIVATE BUSINESS. Upon the question, " That after the 22d of February, this House will not receive anfpriyate petition," . , Mr. HUME observed, that it appeared to him the time limit ed by this order for receiving petitions was unusuallyand incon veniently short.• This order was made at a time that Portia anent was used to meet in November or December, and was not adapted to the present time, when Parliament assembled at a much liter 'season. The SPEAKER explained that the time was not unusually . limited. The practice had always been to limit the time for . receiving private petitions to fourteen days after the meeting of Parliament: In this case, a particular date bad been fixed, only in order to remove all ambiguity, that the - public might be satisfied with regard to the last day for presenting petitions, This was a standing order of the House, which the House was certainly at liberty to rescind when it thought proper, but whilst it was unrepealed, he (Mr. SFeaker) had thought it his duty to regulate himself by it.---(tlear I) . Mr. LOCKHART said, it was of importance that the time for receiving private petitions should not be too limited, fur this reason, that as'all inclosures would be regulated in a great measure by the fate of the agricultural question in. this House, it was unreasonable to bind them to a given time for bringing their petitions here, until they had first ascertained whether they received any encouragement to improvement by the steps which this HoUse would eventually take. The SPEAKER said he had no hesitation in saying - that this order was rather a relief to the petitioners than other wise. It saved expence to the parties to fix a day, but though the standing order forbade time receiving of private petitions after a certain day, yet every Hon. Member knew that when a representation was•made. of ,unavoidable delay having oc- . curred, the House was. constantly.in the habit of receiving them after the time limited by this order. The order was then agreed to. • . • It was also ordered that no private Bill was to be read a first time after the 18th of March next. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.—NORFOLK PETITION. Mr. COKE presented a Petition from a County svhereAgri culture had once flourished—the County of Norfolk. He w as . sorry to say, that that County never, in respect to AgriCul, Lure, presented a more heartbreaking sight, and to none more so than to him, who had spent the greater part of his life in that County, endeavouring to improve its Agriculture. The Requisitibu sent to the Sheriff to call this Meeting had been most numerously signed 'by the Yeomanry of the Coun ty, than whom a more respectable body did not exist;. and it was remarkable, that of those who favoured it,• three out of five had formerly been-the supporters of Government. They had seen t loci r error, and thus coming forward had,set a noble example to other Counties, which he hoped would be univer sally followed. Ifboth sides were not unanimous in pressing on the Government those measures which bed now become necessary', the. evil Complainettof could not he removed.—The Petition prayed for Economy and Retrenchment, and for a Reduction.of the Duties on Salt, Malt, and other commodi ties, by which, and'various savings, they had been led to hope that an annual redaction of the public expendituremieht he -made-to the amount of 5,000,0001. This had been their hope, but how surprised must the Petitioners have been, in common with the whole country; to hesti , the speech of the Chancellor of. the Exchequer on a former night,• in which he declared it to be his opinion that no diminution of taxation could take place. This was the statement that the Minister had thought it right to make in his place, This was the language held at a time like this, by a callous and bard-hearted Government. He had not felt himself justified in holding out to the Peti. 'tioners any hope of relief from that House. Itwas motto he expected from a beefy like that-a body that was as corrupt as it was protiixate.—(Loud cries of " Order.") • . The SPEAKER remarked, the Hon. Gentleman was out of order. Mr. COKE said, be would not transgress the rules : of the House. lie would not, since it was thought disorderly in him to do so, say the House was profligate and corrupt; but it wasavell known to be so.—(Loud cries of "Order, Order," " Chair, Chair.") The SPEAKER regretted the ditty now forced upon him. Knowing as he did bow sensibly the Hon. Gentleman was accustomed to .speak:on.sume subjects, would be the 'last : man to interrupt him.uminecessarily ; but it now was forced upon him by an imperative sense of duty to state; that the course which the Hon. Gentleman had taken was disorderly. He bad hoped.he bad made himself understood before ;. he was sure be had done so now, and trusted on reflection the Hoe. Member himself would feel that he could .. not beallowed inpr:iiceed in that course WhiCh '6 . hid Mr. COKE resumed. He did not wish to offend, but lie could not help 'Speaking Warmly, as Ise•felt warmly on this subject. and felt that from a Houseconstitined as that was, it was in vain to hope for relief. He would not note avail hiiu,elf of the language of the petition, which was stronger than any that he could use. The petition prayed for economy, retrenchment, and 'a reduction of taxation. It set forth that Hine has proved in the last Session of : Parliament, front officialbranch ot documents,the puhtlic hat great both for e ign might a b n e d mande domes ti c , i everybut the House, having negative ' d every proposition founded on those documents, and continued their support to Ministers, it 'was the decided opinion of the petitioners that they could ex pect no relief from a House.so corrupt and defective as that was proved to be without a reform, the want of which Was the true cause of all the es ifs which oppressed the country. If any thing were wanting to prove the corteetnesa oftbeae ideas, it would be found in the statement which had fallen from the Hon. Member fur Kent on a : former evening. That Hon. Gentleman had not sei'upled to tell them that no relief could be expected but from such measures as Ministers might think ,fitto propose. Hera was a statement to offer to the House of Commons. He however (night not to wonder at such lan guage coming from one who held a situation and received such emoluments as he had enjoyed undcr.tbe present Government. He then brought up the Petition. Sir E. KNATCHBULL, after tbe reproaches which had been bestowed on conduct which had not , been proved to be his, .and after the, personal allusions made to him; would ask any Member of that House, whether he should not be guilty or a dereliction of his duty if he abstained from trespassing on their time for a few moments. Heavished, in the first place, to explain what be had saidi and what be thought had been c .nsiderably raiarepresented, and to deny what be bad been charged with by the Han. Gent leman,.from causes or motives whisk weptbest known to that Hon. Groittleatau hiuuelf. Tu the chnrges respecting his • pnbLic • situation he wci•ala girc.a conctnivc answ, r. HALt he merited' thOyetiectiOn thrown on - • 'him, the county he bail the nonour to represent woul4 siA.er have returned him to Parliament., He Loped the Huhse would pardon bins if he spoke with some Warmth on this sub ject. If he bad said any thing that could warrant the infe-, relive tt hich had been drawls floes what had fallen from him - on a former night, be should be unworthy to hold the slum tion he tilled. He list not said, that 'no beneficial measure could be prOposed but on one,side of the House. What he had said with regard to a particular question was this, that it might be for the best interests of the country„that the mea sures to be propounded by Government should he first brought before the -House, and that•if these should not be found to supply the desired remedy, then would be the time for the Gentlemen opposite to offer any-. other proposition which they might think it would be for the good of the coun try to adopt. If'his assenr to some of the general principles laid down: by the jHun. Member for Aberdeen •had called forth some observations front the Noble Marquis, it might have been regarded as that which was in - some degree to be expected, but that on that account he should be attacked by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, afforded him no small surprise. What he had said was, and lie wished not to be misunder stood, not that that House, and any individual in it, bad no right 'to bring foilvard any measure that Members might think would benefit the country, but he bad said, as he would say now, that it would be but right in fairness, in policy, and ' in justice, to let. Ministers open to the House what it was they proposed to do, aid he had thought it would, be unwise and injurious to anticipate them by any ill-judged or prema ture motion on the sohject to which his reams - Its were intended to apply. He agreed with the Hon. Member who had presented the Petition, as to the extent of the distress felt in the agricultu .ral districts, and would gladly support any measure that pro mised to - supply efficient relief. But IL.eling, as he did, -and not being possessed of the experience of the Hon. Gentleman, he would say, that to him it appeared unwise to mix up other questions with what concerned this most important subject, and taking such a course could only injure the cause they wished to serve. He would readily. pardon what had-been said of him, in consideration of the feelings which animated the Hon. Gentlernms on this question. If he would consent to wait for a short time, till Ministers had brought forward the measures which they had to I propose, the. Hon. Gentle, man would find hisn prepared to do his duty by those who had done hint the honour to send him as their representative. .Mr. BROUGHAM said, as the Hon. Member alluded to certain comments which he; in 'the discharge of his duty, had - oxide on wtmt had fallen from him (Sir E. Knatchbull) in the discharge of his, he must claith to be allowed to go back to that debate. He need • hardly' remind the - House that he had as good a right to make the remarks which be had made, as the Hon. Member had to offer those on which they , were founded.' He (Mr. Brougham) bad as good a right to comment on the public conduct of the Han. Baronet as the -Hon. Baronet had to pursue that line of conduct which had become. the subject of his comments. If he bad misrepre sented or misunderstood him, then the Hon. Baronet would have had a claim to correct him, and set him right. But he bad listened to the former explanation which he had given, and to his new explanation (which was perfectly vonsistent with its predecessor), and having done so,- he must confess that he was unable to discover any the slightest incorrectness in what he had described him to have said at -first, and he would venture to add, that there was no man why had heard the Hon. Baronet, and who had heard him Brougham) who would not say that he had rightly understood and accu rately represented what the Hon. Baronet had stated on a former occasion. . • Mr. WODEHOUSE supported the prayer of 'the Petition. It laid great stress on the redactions which ought to be made in every part of the public expenditure. This he conceived was .very properly done. He stood 'in a very delicate situa tion, having . voted against the proposed reduction. of the litary last year. He would, however, wish to see reductions in the civil departments, and that immediately. As Ministers had announced it to be their intention to make considerable reductions, he thought some communication ought to' be made on this subject to the House, 'To repeal the Malt Duty might be a relief to counties where-a great deal of barley may be grown, hut it would not materially benefit others. Har ing briefly touched on the description of relief wanted, he noticed the • concluding prayer of the Petition for a Reform. He did not sufficiently well understand what Reform was wanted to approve. of this part .of the Petition, and could wish other subjects kept distinct from that which'su imperi ously demanded. immediate relief. Mr. LOCKHART hoped to see both Whigs and Tories unite to relieve the landed interest. There was, no subject on which both were so likely to join for the. commou good. Economy and retrenchment, he was of opiuion, ought to be, resorted to, and carried so fat' as, to restore the equilibrium . which had been lost by the decline in the price of agricultu ral produce. It- Was said that the agrictitt oral interest and public vredit most butts stand or fall together. He did not see why either should fall, and desired to see them both stand. He, however, showed, that while large sums bad been paid to the stockholder by the owners and occupiers of land, that large burdens had fallen on the latter, from which the former were exempt. This he considered to he gross in justice, Which ought no longer to exist. But when, in addi tion to the other difficulties with which they had had to con tend, the_ landed interest had to sustain those necessarily thrown upon them from a diminution of the currency, then indeed their distress became great, and they were in the situation of the unfortunate Israelites, when the Egyptian task-masters required them to make bricks without straw, or like the same people at a subsequent period of their history, they might 'complain that the little finger of their present rulers bad become thicker than the loins of their for mer Government bad been. He did not impute to Ministers that callous heartedness which the Hon. Gentleman had as cribed to them. Hebelieved them anxious to remedy the evil, but he feared their jndgment was not sound. They thought -by relieving the country they would relieve agriculture ; he was convinced that by aiding agriculture they would rel, Ye the country. If public Credit were to he supported, it should be by relieving the landed interest, for not doing this they would destroy the fund from which the means of paying the public creditor should flow. But because there was some im provement in the revenue, Ministers supposed all to be going on well. In the end, they would- find themselves deceived, and the evil, concealed for a time, would develope itself on a sudden in a wide spreading calamity and •ruin. He could state that in the West of England and in the Midland Counties, scarcely any rent could at present be collected. When the wages of labour were so reduced that a labouring man was obliged to maintain a wife and two children on 7 shillings per weeli—,-when in some instances, but , 4 and in sonic hut. 4 shillings per week could be obtained.for labour. where 14 or fifteen had forMerly been paid—such a state of things must produce.effects that would endanger. public credit. There had . been an intention on the part of Government to relieve the agricultural distress, by a loan of 5,000,0001. This measure could not diminish the evil. They were not aware bow much property had been confiscated, anti they lot got the situation of many of the parties. How was such a measure to be made 'applicable to tenants for life—tenants in'tail—tenarns for a longterm—and others which he enumerated, and which he contended could receive no !chef from a measure like that which had been sta?gest ed. The measures that would diminish the evil were first of all economy and retrenchment, carried on so as to restore the lost equilibrium of property. Next it would be necessary to guard against foreign importations. He did not wish the price of grain to he raised ; he wished it not to be raised ; but it was necessary to look Very closely to the conditions on which foreign corn was allowed to„ he im ported, for nothing could be more _altsurd than to suffer the opening of the ports for 6 weeks to glut the market for the !text three years. He hoped those things would be remembered by Ministers, and thatiticx..rold foresee that if the agricultural. interest and the five or six millions of persons depending: upon it were not perfectly protected, the public credit would lie in danger, as would even Abe laws and constitution of the country if lost equilibrium were .not restored. , • Mr. LUSFIINGTON felt convinced, from the speech of the - Hon. Member who had just sat down, as well as that of the Hon. Member for Norfolk, that they could not have been present in the House run' the fortnerth bat e . His Right Finn. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer could riot have been designated by them as the instrument of a coldhearted and callous Government, obstinately determined s to give no relief to the distresses of the people in the remission of any taxa tion. The statement made by his Right II rn. Friend was, that the maintenance of public credit was the most sure and speedy cure fur the agricultural distress of the country, and not a sweeping and unthinking repeal of taxes, Which, by de 7 privink the public creditor of all confidence, would produce tenfold distress among all classes of :the community. His Right Hon. Friend illustrated his argument. by stating that one of the means of relief which he proposed was, a reduction of the charge for interest upon a portion of the plablic debt, by paying off the five percents., which he placing 1,300,0001. at liberty, over and above the existing Sinking Fund, would afford the Government and the House an opportunity of con sidering what taxes might be reduced without violating the public,faith, or affecting the security of the public creditor. His Right Hon. Friend stated, that in , tead of the course proposed by Mr. Hunie,the practice of all former Parliaments, and that which the otrviuus reasbn and.j.ostice of the case called upon them.to adopt, was first to consider deliberately the extent of thereductions made hYGovernment in the public expenditure, .whether any and %slat further reductions-could be made consistently with the good. of the- : publie service. and the safety of the State :—to examine then the income which would remain after defraying all unavoidable charges, and to ,deal with the surplus in such , manner as :might be- thought. insist conducive to the maintenance of the public credit, in which all the ItM. interests of the country were involved. Any plan for the reduction of taxes which did not preserve the public faith inviolate would be illusory, and a real aggra. vation of the distresses of the people. In the present state of things it •appeared to him. that; .with respect to Agricultural distress, the must reasonable course that wild be pursued, was to heat what measures the Government ; had to propose, and.then it would be open to any Member to suggest what he might. think necessary. rill were.agreeettliat relief must be afforded, and the only difference :hat existed was as to the mode in which it should be applied. ..Mr. ITUNIE thought, ther_Hon_..Gentleman. could not have been in the House when' the debate to which he alluded took place, nor yet have read his amendment. His amendment called for no reduction of taxation—for no art that could en danger public credit. He had called for a reduction of ex• , Pences from the highest to the lowest branch of the public service, that taxation might be reduced in propertiOn. Who could understand the Chancellor of the .Exchequer - but meaning this—" Taxation must not he diminished,—if yoU diminish it you increase the distress of the country." lie was happy to find, from the tone of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. •Lushington,) that eight-and-forty hours had not elapsed saner that speech was made, without teaching the GJvernment that whatever they intended, taxation must be diminished Ile was happy to mark this change in their carriage, •ard augur: ed well from the explanation which had just been offered by the Hon. Gentleman. •. . • _ . . The Petition was then read by the Clerk;and ordered to he printed. [Here. a Message from the Lords requested the Hatiqe to communicate to their Lordships the prnited.Appendix to the Agricultural Committee of last Sc.:sion's Report, which was ordered accordiogiv 1 REPORT OF ADDRESS. On Mr. R. CLIVE appearing at the Bar with the Report of 1)e Address, Mr. CURWEN rose—Though it might be rely well 'known. within that House, that any individual who dissented trout the Address was not bound by it, yet, as that might not be, the case in the country,' be would now state his reasons of dissent.. Either 'Ministers knew the state of the country, or. they did not; but whether they did or not, the' coontry - was looking to them with the most anxious exprictation. The . country :lad, however, no right to look: for them with hope, fhe distress was apparent—was felt Over all the country, and in the West of England there were no rents paid. „ Mini - stets might say, that the progressive improvement of thr country was consoling to the Crown; but .he would ask them hftw consoling the progressive improvement: of the past hail been ? and yet it had been regular Iv repeated in the. Speech,'and echoed in the Addresses of the" House. This was dealing, un fairly by the country, and also by the Crown; for there could he no dOubt that if the King were to he dulpadvised otthe Suf ferings of his people, he would order measuges fur their relief. Ministers had the equilibrium; thelevel between the Agri cnitnrists and that portion of the people who jived - upon an nuities, or were fed oat of the revenue, and,in, order to re-, storethis level, they must either alter ;he currency or re move a portion of the taxes. the former 'would he neither just not wise. At all events, the level ought to be restored. He was not, however, for doing that by. a return to high prices, because these prices the other classes of the country could not bear; and while lie was not forsacrificiug the inte rests of the agri,culturists to those of the other.classes, as little would he he for sacrificing those- of the other classes to them. If high prices were to he produced, that would ruin the ma.; . - nufacturers, and thus defeat its object. .'!'hough Ministers had not - adverted to it, the country had been progressively suffering in all its interests; and, he could freely assert, and that without fear of contradiction, that the general - income of the - country had been progressively diminished. Mi nisters had hinted that they would lend five millions - in aid of the agriculturists; but where were they to find security In all cases where there was security to give, plenty of ' money could be borrowed, and that at a rate of interest sufficiently low. Bnt granting that security could be afforded, who wouldcborrow money to invest it in agricultural implements and improvements. when the sums already so invested were yielding no return ? It was impossible that such a remedy could do any good, and there fore they ought to look to the removal of a part of the taxes, The public Credit ought, no doubt, to be preServed, if pos— sible, but it was of more consequence to preserve the industry and character of the people ; for it was in vain to think of ruining anyone class of the people without at the same time ruining the other classes. The Speech was .fallacious in as far as it represented the country generally as being in a state of prosperity. There had been within the last six years, he was confident. a falling otf of six millions sterling in the general revenue of the country.; and if with this falling off, the same sum were to. continue to. he paid in taxes, a•portion of that egilal at least to a - million and a halt, indepetident of the increased value of the currency,. would have t• be paid , out of the capital ; an it was impossible' that they could long continue to spend out of that capital. This state of the country was not a misreotesentation, it was borne out by the facts; and it ought to - be truly alarm ing. If nothing could be done to remedy the decreased in comes of the landholders, then the taxation shoold be ltrought down - to meet that. This was what matters must come to; and if measures were not now taken to prevent it, thr issue might be serious indeed. The House would the swell to hear in mind what resulted from the monopoly of property, and ex emption from taxes which were enjoyed by the. nobility and clergy in Fiance. If these had come forward at the proper time to bear their share of the public burdens, the coi,s.e• quences which followed might have been avoided. But grant ing that it should not for some time come to this calamitous refult, the distress-front want of employment, and from the throwing of a great part of the lands out of cultivation, must be very serious indeed. Mr. C. trusted the - Hun. Meinber for Kent (Sir E. Knatchbull) would support retrenchment to the Veil utmost, and the number of Members who would do the same might induce the Minister to alter his - views. This question was of so much interest to the country, that it ought to be discussed withoutaay reference. to . party, and with the best understanding bet Ween Tories, Whigs, and all denominations whatever. As for himself, he trusted that he was as 'much .attached to reform as any man ; but he would propose not to mix even that with the distresses of the coun try- He might say indeed, that economy, retrenchment, and a consequent lessening of taxation, would be the first steps Of a most essential. reform. He would, however, waive all party-feelings, anxious as he was to prevent this country froin being driven, by the loug pressure of distress,' to a state such as that under which Ireland unhappily was, where all of. man seemed to. he gone but his animal passions, and these no laws could restrain. • . _ brought up, read, and agreed to. STATE OF IRELAND. _ The Marquis of LONDONDERRY *rose,- in pursnaace of a notice which he had given on a former night, to call•the at tention of the House to' that part of his -Majesty's Speech,. which referred to the presert internal state of Ireland; and he was sure that they would believe him sinceete- when lie-assured them that he had never risen to perform a duty with•more pain ful feelings than he experienced on the present occasion. - He had certainly hoped, when he recollected how Ireland lead-eon ducted herself of late years in very tryiag-cireumstancea, that they would be spared , the melamfaaly knowledge that a spitit•l of insubordination existed there which could only-be -put dOwnl by tha strong hand of- Justice,. ond•bY lake framed to; protect all classes, by repressing disorder. The task he hid to per- form was additionally.painfni to him on other growl:lee -He ! regretted that it had pot fallen to the let of - hieeltight Hon. Friend, who was more immediately connected with the. Admi- I nistration of Irelandthan.hirnself, and he ceuld not give a morel convincing proOf that he undertook it from a sense of imperi. ous duty, than lie should offer when he stated that not meiedv I his friends in the AdMinistration -on.thii chic of Me:water had .! requested him, to do eo e but those tylga.erete charged with the 1 Administration . for Ireland had wrilteri to him not to delay' bringing it forward, even till the .Peeetery of Statdfor the /tome' Department, and : the Chief Seeretery for _lreland could,aiiive. Under these circumstances he threw himself on the indtil?ence of the House, while he entered mien the painful duty which might have been better diecharged . by those more immediately • responsible for the state. of Ireland. tic was moved to the at tempt,by every principle of duty, of policy, and he might 'add,: by every principle of order and mercy, to repress; with the least; possible delay, those rebellions which had unligpily demandedthe attention of Goi-erinn:nt.! 11l begged to claim the imiticu ler indulgence of the House on the grounds which he had men tioned.-- The nature of -the .subject being of,. neHeity in ;the highest degree painful to his feelings, he sliciad onfine . him-; self as much as possible" in first stating to the !froinie the•-.suli stance of the measures which he felt it necessary to pro,peeee ;.lie. should thenstate the grounds uponavhich - he called ; , upon Par liament to sanction those measures e andlastß, lid ehotild irate the probable duration which they were intended to h'ive... He ! was anxious to proceed upon, every principle:of merry, tewerde the wretched and deluded people who had embarked in the ho e .: rible system of outrage_of which Ireland was row the siene::—, And he we:di-Istate to the, Honie that the srifeaspreti. w:laie,h he had to .propose,, were considered absolutcl4.Dece44o9:etbe safety of the ;country by that highly este,dneW aid respected individual who Was now entrusted with theAAininistration' f the Goverment in the sister country.. Thos v ineiieuees .were t i .re-enactinent, of the Insurrection Act, and the - stfirlierreiOn oft e Haberie 'Corpus Act.—(Hear, hear ly-:-The a - Mitten which be intended these measures to have wits the,limited;peried of six months. Thus the House-would see that it retained the power of removing thesd enactments µt the end or 11 - 1 - Si.4 . 3i4an, or of Ontinuings them e as the urgency of the •case nip ht del - nand --; This would particularly apply to the suepension of the Ha beas Corpus Act ; as he sincerely hopeetlia - there would 're, main no groithas ftaiiii colitintnince; libihe Vcitgli telltiellcus that there was no situation to which he could be recinced.. Mo te contrary tl his disposition and wishes, than that of wititholdin4 from any of his Majesty's,sul t ieters the iniStiiiiable advantages of that writ. These. acts, upon former occasions, were never % 3 force for so short A period. The time to winch. the one wa . s , limited, at the occurrence of the Manchester conspiracies, w 3,7 three ,years. With regard to the !Insurrection Act,. he leare tt that there would still remain a neceasity for continuinst it ta force, When the attention of Parliament was again, called t° this unfortunate subject. It was scarcely to be expected, eve° in case the rebelliOUS state Of the 'coontry,sllould have been sup; pressed, that the country could have subsided into that state ° 1 tranquillity in which it could be left without some Extra no el ; being vested in the laws. The Noble Lord new at the head °I . the Administration in Ireland, had. been :most active since ; his residence in that country in renirganizieg the system-ofePoli ce 'e and.in endeavouring to place the civil power in swell aettat.ljh• eilicien.eye as, in conjunction with the means would render the-increase of the Military threo tahnocessarfo' The Bills which he was about- to meee lihn leave to bring in ' would be limited to six ininiths, to expire on the first of M; gust next, unless necessity should arise for rencwino, them the expiratioti of that - perio.i. It WAS of the very first import ance that neat:lee should Le allowed in passings. snow ineasoret t for remedying the, unhappy state i 1 to which lretand had fallen , They were not without precedents for peesing ineaqueres .for suppression .of rebellion at a single sitting. lie contess.ed, , Or when he cantle down to the House, he. w.as dispoeed sugg es 7: a similar worse upon the nresentoceaSion. Since licenten'n he•hitil come to the resolution of-proposing tita•:thn Baal:tow' wily advenced,to the third readingoitiol then to pa.sa the othe t stages and ibriverd them to the House of Lords, and bring Cheat: into action as eorly as possitilein-the enetting.-Weakl He die IllelAnci . ;(ily *a:4(.of .a4vetting to dontecounds !open whic"' these. nieitsures. were rendered urgently iineessary-. Front Co°. official napers 'before was the• House, it • ias io t pessitne not I ,`' • draw' the conclusiohall. t Ireland 4s:hi : ate:tat :and even nee' . lion, The contents e we two lastdot-iecn. nts coniieneed t.•®. [ existence of a widely extended conspiraty enci . ' nebeilien .southern counties of Ireland. lost sinewy did he hope, 03 ' the V7:Vlorn,of.Parliainetit,Mll.;;lt render c),l ~least difretian•-[-' He trusted that the theaSurini which he had the honour of alibi,. • mating to the House would be (mind. adequate. to the , task . '" cohvincing the„delotled people old : the „ioiquity, of theinerail i ' s ' and of bringing them. lkickto.tirat :Ana submissive c° 11 " - duct which alone could expatiatetheni. ia. coeld only :exP ec, i. - the return of order and trainnaillity, by it - t-veating in the nano°, Government those extended powers ze-e:eaeery *-,"^[ crush the rebellion before it assumed it Still more ibraiidnb l4 .character. -Far- tine-Parliament- to -heaitate e in -giviting sod,' powern woold have the most fatal tendency. They w:rr bound, without loss of time, to place the seine powers in -01 s, hands of the -.Marquis Wellesley which, had been granted to I"' predecessors in that high office which he now filled, tinder cu' l cumstances of a similar nature to that ve c ohli now demand' - them. Whatever the en entity and ehoirible chars'" ten of the outrages nevi committing in Ireland, -tlierewas t least sotneeonsolatioti m ktiOnting the: then did not'oriatinty• from religious or !political.sourceitn• • They (nun& -beanthe ratteristies which marked those.nvi4eiples of resistance in . neral .in other parts of the worich—(bear, hear, hear, fro:lt, the Opposition 1) He repeated that he !was gind to belie*!! that then rebellion did . not • beor the ailearactetiatie of .otbh f ' rebellions. Tins rebellion was, indeed, fontid•d :Ton re; sistance to the laws, bet it was of a. very lit' Tint"' from • those - rebelliotis which originated hi grill . pelitieni ciples, calculated. to lead to . any thing but litho ty.—(lltto r " . hear, hear.)--But the absence Of' that revolutionary char l f; ter fouhd no resent why it should . not be pet down proroct'ia. and effectively.. It was a rebellion anoinst - all the principle" Governmetinwhich held society together, It was a rebellioo 'against all law, social order, and morelity. Direete.d by an ill ; visible pot. er e whether under the title of Camara.Rocki or •c's n or other, he cured riot, it dictated crimes euonnities Which di s ' graced Mankind. :It proscribed the hot et vendee; o the lons"' classes, tin' their industry and obod - hintion - and Oen higliet 0 e" der--for their .character and rielica. - it end eivOtirel. detelyis Opriglit frotn diseharging their duty, even when called-noo n 13 a Court of JuStice. Even the nlanistrecy were saceineed t t l i:: ;:i t t h h e lit tl: v e: t erformititce e of their oecupathnns. it's`'` a rebellioo the d, , lodtd, ;. , od egainst valuable in society. It was rebellion stni`C an • orl the most cruel onir ferocious enimesh iJpon diene grou r o iteres nett rid twos dri'ven tuthe tainehtehleotecestity of.ionnll to Parliament for thatinereVtAl Rottr;::f would be P t-- in the hands„of the Exectizive Goveninieet, I , y the pasnin't . ; - , theJildla whi,:b. tog, nbet e into peopaie. ,I.IE 1;315 ad Ctrs" was nothing political religirius in the cieueener of this rea, lion ; but he would ceution the nnainat implyi onY curity from that eiretimataticie ov'tio Could say, of the ti -411 ,,, 1 e should permit delay in putting down this insuerection, treason, for ti•eane.n it alsonvaa, 110 , 7.10 M 5t should rtrita4 l - I ,. * . t on a out the ageravntion-of both those el - intact . ristica ? 144 with treat attentioo M what Wait said he t';h Right Heti. „ ronet opposite (Sir J. Newport),, oh It recent occasion.. bee-oust; the Hight Hon. Ben :oit ! knew Irela.nd welt, end. neelool 0 , tA lea trot interests. Crti W.Htt fens 'cat s : • dispose-et to an tieinete ant: objectiare in' . thet quarteehto- the tne ,, S SUreS which he was sunenite meetetho . nnnne! nen eee e_ter,he ha . misunderstood the sentinients of the its. H on. B ono; the Bono" would most hkely have the benefit of his views union the qte s e' c tion. . The Rhein llon.,lfaronet had edmitted .the necessitY, coercive nteasnees, but Anthesame. time lie made sointaullo a . 3 l to die adopt - ma of e. conciliating smile ith conjeection wigs them: Now he. *(the Noble Marquis), must protest a tins 'principle altogether. Nothing , could be More tonal ` object they, had in view then yielding any nehigi like cone's' to these deluded people, while they remained onnositiol 4n the laws of their country.. This was not the time , for eon° t oe tion ; the only object which ought to engross their attention,e,n the present moment was, the danger' ant exigency p 1 , teen horrid outrages, and: the imperative nceeseity . of crushing t' he at once. . They must . not now.be occupied with di s cussing t na, sYstem- of Government in• Ireland, or the various causes wl°,„ hvere assigned by inclitotiuttla . L'S produfing • the dreadful into Which that •country was Planed 'l. t , here- cou ld not-P ° ,, s sibly exist a more.fecal principle than that of• hulling;.out to • insur'ent people the . slightest notion of any alteratioe in t l' ot , Government 'or 0 - 10 Laws. By such a line of preeeedinfzn in . a would oidd be holding out the most direct premitina il-'`kaa insunreetionary. movements. And whatever moralities tn e n - committed now, the instruments of souther rebellion might s expected to go still further with their crimes and their strocitl ne This Was_ horrible_ W1024104_ having the prospect ce ei stantly before their- eyes of succeedn rim in Ones,r ) ,ceit by 3i ~ i - 0 , / ties of• a still deepet die.,.This rebellion went already to the tent of secret • ewiabinations for eliv:ding land and seizing upon property which produced more than a certain ineoihano It was in facon•rtbellion or murder and plunder, carriectoth;t; invisible 'agents, who would be sure to mahe Ireland t scene of future insurrection. • and Jawlek outrage, if aoy.vgi t. j were conceded upon the present occasion. The Houle ir,c l :'; o therefore See nhe impropriety-and don eer of mixing concilia o •• with the measures, they might think -14 to adopt in the pies`,,, . emergency. The time for conciliatory rileagiarc3, and ,for naination into the causes of the distress which no doubt ents` n , in Ireland, would be whin its people .hail returned no a tr s , , quit :tats ofpeaceftil- obedience to the laws.- All political 0, .ii ligious, topics should be suspended' Int the mm of do. l ?,L' a ' and The Catholic, Body,: on _a[foi iner simi!ar occas i , -) 0 action- wisely, judieiously, and temperately, sustained tt" ' bringing...their chneus • before the Parlizenenn He %ens coD dent that they would tiow.,-pursue the same, line of concitabtf for the existence of, these disturbanees,inust have the etfecti.jo no other cause operated e , of rejection to: their claims. 1 %,, regard, to conciliation, ; •net-fan as it. WaS practicable o a t volving them M concession to:the insurgent.s,..he thought s i b - the delay - in bringirignhe ..aubjent ebefOre Parliament was :. t po ..gMW!st Pledge of a eoriellintorydispositioh which the Ooh e d merit cottlu, atiord. Goverinnent, had 'waited anxiously: .S n a very - patiently, with theltope that_ the disturbances mignt suppressed without the necessity of makinn the . present I n t cation to. Parliament. The hillitary . forCes were increased they were fOund to be iendequate to the object. •• They not drive the' instirgetita froin their fastnesses ; anti in one stanee they disenvered a camp where they had been forT l3 o - a i and in, which they had left various martial impleinenta • 11. t e e the.apecial Cornmisslon much had been expectett.• But • 4.. 4 , 0 1 bows produced_ no permanent effect. The Noble indivoli to who presided over the. Irish Government was nioSit 'anxioi l ec tt • ainelionate the 'condition of the people of Ireland, and , to' at t e ' ec a [ them more to the House of Hanover; and he (LOrd - Welle s ang was of. opinion that the surest method of accomplishing object was to enforce a due obedience to its authority, stns;., the institutions which were supported under its sway. l e ad' tins conviction he was prepared to' take the responsibilitl io n/ ministering these laws, ifthe Parliament; in its - wisdom, • think fit to enact them It was with the Most painful- fee F e te that he had to [communicate to the House intelligence commission of fresh outrages, exceeding in their b10 0 4, - ;11 •ferocious 'clenacter those described in the 'papers th6ri hands of Members. (The Noble 111arquis herdoleseribet', e s , attack anti murder of the policemen, given in Trin-Stee; °t ) e re terdey.) It was to be remarked that all these notrageseo ,n t4 committed in the night, and that the object of the Bills '":- . t ht make persons responsible tbr not being in their hinisem a e ` oo la proper time for retirement and rest. Ile trusted that he 6l 'a t it'' gun be.. called on for -any further 'information, w m hich' it!,. ' ed the head of the Irish Government to consider the sion of theiHabeas Corpus Act necessary. lie believed i t ;1 11 , common for the House to place so much Confidence in t he n nisters of the Crown, in all cases of great public exigon'Y n ' o n , not to require from them the information on which they ‘1..n.0 • :upon their own responsibility. He was happy that 10 . 5 e 0 jesty's visit to Ireland hail been attended with that exP re a .' nln • of attaChment awlaffection on the part of the } w oof ' which, was so gratifying, to an Irishman's heart. n ot ' visit had produced a degree of union Where the tic