The Sun. — London, England, 1822-06-05 00:00:00

etrenehment, to make up for the difference betwixt a state of peace and a state of war. As to the inflammatory language used by the Honourable Member for Somersetshire, the Noble Marquis must makb up his mind to hear much of that kind of language, if he expected landowners to pay taxes, without rents.—( Elea ! ) . • Mr. Secretary PEEL expressed his surprise at the language used by the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down, in speaking -of the measure of 1819, for the change o; the currency. He had often heard-the. Honourable Baronet pursue the sate course of rt,i lark upon that measure ; and he had heard it always with surprise; - for, in proportion as the condemnation tit' . tne Honourable I,la_ronet was true and deserved, did he prone:mice strong _ censure oar himself.—(Hear hear, hear.) ----If, as he, said, the eViltendeucy of it.was obvious to him, - he was guilty of a breach of duty in not warning the House -of, the errors of its course.—(Hear, hear.!)—lf the principle of the Bill were obviously iniquitous, it Must have been- so in -1918—policy might vary, but principle could not and as the Hon. Baronet did not or could not speak when he ought to have done so, it was•too much, that having,.as he thought, be come wiie, he should, come down to that House at this period,. and make a holiday speech upon this subject like . that which they had just heard, to excite a clamour most unjustly against the Guvenimeni of the country.—(Cheers.)-.—lf the measure was deserving of reprobation, it was not the Government that was chargeable. No measure ever passed with greater unanimity than that measure had.—(Hear, hear, hear to— It was not a Government measure, and, if it. were, still it had been received better than any measure Coming from.that side of the House ever had been. He for himself peculiarly regretted any share that he might have had in a.measure which could by possibility aggravate the distress of the coun try. But he was perfectly satisfied with the course he on that occasion pursued, and he solemnly declared, that, with all the experience he had of its operation,. were the country. in the same situation of danger, on the brink of a fearful precipice, as he contended it was at that period, he should advise th same change in the currency which had been effected in 4819.—(dear.)--.He regretted lie had permitted himself to go. so, far into the question, when a specific motion on the sub ject was about to come before the House ; but it was impos sible to tolerate without remonstrance the unfair attempt which had been made to inflame the country against the GoVernment, for having departed from its duty. As to gratitude spoken of by the Hon.• Baronet, who claimed any gratitude ?, Was it .inipossible for an individual on that side of the House : to ex press approbation of any measure of his-Majesty's Government without being taunted by the abject term of gratitude. They . did not ask for gratitude; but they demanded that justice • whh : th one Englishman had a right to receive at the hands of every other.—(Hear, hear !)—No Gentleman, he contended, was open to such remarks for having paid a merited tribute sine in justice to his Majesty's Ministers.--(Cheers.) Sir P. BURDETT. explained. Mr. DENMAN did not feel the less inclined to make obser vations because of the lecture they . had received. Last year . ' the people were instructed not to , petition, and now Members were told not to discuss their petitions. He agreed with the Right Hop. Gentleman opposite that they owed no gratitude to his Majesty's Ministers for what had been done in the way of relief; for it was not until after they had been beaten by suc cessive majorities that they bethought themselves of taking off taxes... But so anxious were they of all the credit due to this,' that last night his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) was taunted with appearing in borrowed feathers, and described as skulking away with all the glories of a stolen leaf from the book of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr.. BEN NET begged to disclaim, for himself, any parti ' eipation in that gratitude which the Noble Marquis- opposite seemed to charge upon the House. He never saw any thing since he had been in the House, entitling the Ministers t 9 gra titude. . . The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was not aware that he h4d ever imputed such a feeling to the Honourable Member.— ( A . lpgh.) _ . . , !after a fewwords from Mr. JAMES, the Petition was brought . up. On the question that it be read, / _ Sir T. LETHBRIpOE rose to declare that. he did not be .lieve any sentence uttered by him wquld bear the construction cf being inflannuatory, put upon it by the Noblq Marqyis, and he was sure that he had no such intention. He begged, how ever, to state that he should continue diurnally to state his sen 7 tirnents, even at the risk of offending, the Noble Marquis.— (A laugh . .)—The whole country hail become, reformers. The yeomanry were reformers ;and he hicriself was a convert to the doctrine of reform.—(A. laugh. _-That House wanted more of tlic. , Landed interest in it before justice could be done to the country. , He hoped, however, the, Noble Marquis would not ,a:teuse 'him of being inflammatory, although he did wear a white hat. • . , The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had only to charge the .Ilos. Baronet with having unduly executed his own intentions. With reference to the repeated assertions, that it was only at the instariceof the other side. that t axes h a d been taken off, he 'begged to remind, the ;louse - .thht, they commenced in Easter to state their plans fcr the remission of taxation, thus taking .the earliest moment that the pressure of public business offered. -, The Petition was then read, and ordered to he printed. ILCHESTER GAOL. - Sir P. BURDEI7. gave. notice_ of a motion to-morrow for the y - oduction of that ) , ,,urnal which had been kept back upon the ground of its being private property. .51r. PEEL said that ) at a convenient time, , he should lay before the /louse the documents relative to Ilchester gaol; and that the letter containing the denial in question should then be produced. , _ - . . CRIMINAL CODE. . . • 3li. W. C. WILSON presented a Petition from Blackburn, . in Lancashire, against the severity of ,the Criminal Code. Mr. DENMAN presented Petition from Camelford, in Cornwall, praving for a revision of .the irminal Lavi. POSTM.,STER-GENERAL.S.IIIP SCOTLAN - D. The CrIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was desirous, looking at the time which Would be occupied 135 , ' Sir James Macintosh on the criminal law, that an Bon. and Gallant Officer (Six R. Fergusson)• should postpone his motion.rela tivc to the Postmaster-Generalship of Scotland. Sir.RONALD.FERGUSSON was content to withdraw his once ; and he• did so the more willingly, 'because he.belieied that tht.Conunissioners upon, inquiry could not fail to find the office a Mere sinedure. He understoo,d that it was one,of thoSe .offices which came immediately under the notice of the Com missioners. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said, that the plan certainly would come under. the consideration of the Commissioners. Ile was not sure at what period of their in quiry, but he beiieved very early. • • CRI 111. 'NAL . Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH assured the House, that in • to call theirattention to this subject, he was deeply gen ' Sihle how much he must be indebted to their patience and in .,dulgeritia to attend to him. He also felt the difficulty of his . task in having to address the House upon a question of that .general nature, which although unspeakably important. to the -whole community, touched upon no particular point of indi vidual interest ; which meited no Party animosity, and offered .nochanceof bringing up those personal contests which were the chief amusement to byestanders. In this question no bodies . of Gentlemen were threatened with ruin, and no Ministers -.called on to defend their m easures , which had of late given a more painful interest to the debates of that House. From the . deep importance of the subject, and the public interest at ' tacileil to it,.he hoped_ it would be viewed in a spirit, free froni .all warmth. of party, and also not as a question of the laws of thA country. The, Petitions now lying ,on th e t a bl e o f t b e 'House in favour of a mitigation - of the Severity of Our Criminal -.Code were from persons of all pariieS, and all religious persua sions, and expressed the deliberate opinions of the great ma jority of the enlightened part of the country. This case then .. standing on the highest ground that could affect the concerns of a nation, he hop e d f or th e same indulgence frOm the House dick had on forme; occasions been pleased to honour him hear.)--At this period of the Session, it was riot his Intention to propose any Bill for the adoption of the House. At the same time, however, prevented as he had partly been, by public business, partly by th e diffi cu l ty of the subject, and partly by the state of his own health, from proposing s mea sure at a time when he might have, expected an adequate dis cussion in both Houses of Parliament, he . Slibuld think hiniself -unOardonahle if he did not advance one step in the present Session. It was, therefore, his intention to off er a reso l u ti on .to the House, affirming a principle which. Might he likely to .afford the basis for a systematic, early, and effectual le_gtsla . Lion. next .8e:1z:ion, towards the revision of the Criminal Laws. Rezplution was to this effect That this House will, early .rin the next Session of . .Parliament, take into .its most . , serious' censideration the means of increasing the efficacy of the Criminal• Laws of the country by abating their rigour, and also 'of strengthening the Police.", He laid little stress upon the mere words of the Resolution. He wished merely . to have a declaration of the House in recognition of a principle which. the House bad already adopted in many measures which had passed them. Ile therefore abandoned ins motion to ti t verbal -critieNtri to any .one• who might think it worth his while so to treat* it. Although he laid no -great stress on precedent in a case of this kind, yet he was able, to, sheer precedent for it. He could draw one from the history of one o f t h e g reatest mea .surea that had ever issued from that... House, the Slave Trade. A Resolution had been adopted by the House on th.at,great questiob, which . ihe might call the dying Words 'of Mr. Fox. That ReioluPtisa was the last expression of that inextingnish able sal - for Me interests of mankind whiCh'warinctil,theteart, and threw a lustre round the public life - of that great and'ex c.dlent man.-4 Hear 1) --He need say no more in-favour of the precedent he brought in support of the course he pursued upon this occasion. He proposed only to re-assert the principle con.: ,ained,inseyeral Acts of the Legislature, and still more of that Hones. What else was the principle of the repeal of the Sta - making it felony to steal in bleaching grounds ?.. A whOle new Code of Revenue Laws which had lately been framed was upon that same principle of strengthening the Law by abating its rigour. He would select one case for remark—that of fraudulent Bankruptcies. The punishment of death had not been taken from this crime because itewas considered to be one of small importance, , but because The severity of the punish ment prevented the law from being carried into effect, and had rendered it for the last twenty years a dead letter. It was on that account that the infliction of capital punishment had been taken away, for it could not be contended that fraudulent bank ruptcies were not worse in most cases than nineteen out of twenty felonies that were punishable with death. In the case of shoplifting, too, the sum had been raised from five shillings to 151.- The ancient-defence of the law which punished capi tally stealing to the amount of five shillings was, that it was necessary thus to . protect poor shopkeep,ers from the depreda tions to which they were exposed. This protection, however, once considered to be so important, was now done away. A small theft was no longer punished as formerly, the sum being, - as he had already stated, raised from-five shillings to fifteen pounds, at which precise sum the law valued the life of man. In the time of his beloved and revered friend, Sir Samuel Romilly, the Bills which, on his motion, had bee, n passed .through that House, .had recognised the principle, that to give efficacy to the laws, it was necessary to diminish the punishments al ready inflicted. A report to this effect had been made to,the House, and this had so far been approved by the House, that the Committee who made it had been re-appointed to inquire into the subject, and called further evidence in support of the principle they laid down. The opinion of the Hhiise had been not less strongly manifested in the diacussions which had taken plane on the punishment applied to cases of forgery. On such cases of mere legislation it would be absurd to expect that the same attendance would be given as on those occasions which were calculated not only to interest the feelings, but to excite the Passions of men • but the attendance on the occasions alluded to was as full as he ever remembered to have seen on any similar occasion, and a disposition had uncoiestionably 'been manifested J o' take the • panisament of 'death from the crime of forgery, He therefore now called upon the House to make ho new declaration, but .merely to assert with more distinctness that which had already in effect received their sanction. He intended to notice secondary punishments.— Those opposed to .him were for considering these first, and then proceeding to capital punish Men. He however thought the capital punishments entitled to the first consideration, be cause the tht4rt held out of inflicting these he , :dewed in part as the cause of the. other defects of our system. lie could not do better than repeat a sentiment which had been thrown out by' an thin. Friend of his on the opposite side of the House, that in dealing with this subject the burden og, making out a case was riot thrown on them whn wished to 'diminish - capital pu niShments, so much 'as on those who wished to retain then.— They could only be justified by necessity. An attack on the life . of man could only be j - ustiliecl by that consideration which ulti mately made it resolve itself into a measure of self-defence. It, was therefore for thdse whose seho defended the present laws to make out a case that should establish the necessity orthem. AnOther circumstance ought to have some effect on those who considered this to be merely a question of sober common sense; ' he alluded to the mantle; in which the existing. laws were exe ' cuted. The course at present pursued in this country he held to be at variance With the common sense of mankind. He charged against the administrators of the law of England e that for the last century and a half it had been cliferentfrom that of all other countries ; w h e th e r i n a s t a t e o f c i v ili za ti on or of bar . barisrn—whether their 'laws were mild or severe. +All other countries had , acted - on this principle, that the sentences awarded were to 'be executed. Some exceptions were made in . extraordinary cases, 'bit the rule was to carry the sentences into execution. We on the Contrary did not carry the sentences ,awarded by ourlaws into effect. Out of 200 Or more that were ca . pitally convicted, riot more than 20 suffered; or one twentieth part of the who:del - lumber cast. The -principle on which we : acted was the very antipode of that which had been adopted every where else. Yet our system - had been the subject of end , less panegyric, and its - paradoxical character induced some eminent men to raise their voices - in its praise. From the de lightful surprise. excited by their efforts to defend that which had appeared incapable of• extenuation, it had'attached soars. , men to this paradox, and inspired more admiration than could . 'be moved by a' More homely love of truth. Mr. M'indham (whom he had the honour of knowing intimately) from his spirit of chivalry, singularity of character, and love of ancient esta blishments, was induced to embark his talents in the defence of our system. Dr, Paley had done the same. But the pane gyrics constantly bestowed on the laws .of England had not made him a convert `to the tipiniona of those by whom they, were -pronounced. Though he (Sir J. Mackintosh) was not one of those who constantly employed themselves in sing ing the excellence of our 'laws, yet he trusted that he ad mired as much as any man could do, the fundamental print ciples on which they Were 'fotinded. , He would co this subject- refer to the language held by our immortal - Poet, Milton, in his Areopag:tica, addressed to the Lords and Cominons of .Poigland. Ile might here remark that it had been Milton's glory to be 'the first to defend a free press and an unfettered 'conscience. He had said with respect to our system, and the 'praises of which it was then the subject—" They who freely magnify what has - beeri nobly done; and fear not to de clare as freely what might be done better, give you-the truest covenant that their highest praise is not flattery, and theii honest advice is- yoUr best praise." - This * was said. with re ference to the' unqualified. eulogia then pronounced on one system ;„ then, before the 7th of William - and. Mary had • passed, which first granted to persons accused of. High treason a copy' of the indictment on which they were to be ttied, and a list of the witnesses to be brought against them, and before the Ist of Queen Anne, which allowed witnesses for the prisoners to be sworn, without which it was of little use bringing them, into 'Court. Though such was the state of the law at that period, yet the praises bestowed on it were as many, and the cry against innovation' as loud as ever it had" been since. A Valuable writer on the law, Mr. Sergeant Hawkins, in his "Pleas of the Crown," had said, " Those who take a - superficial, view of the Criminal Laws can charge them with unnecessary rigour." - But would the House believe it, when. this was said, the laws against wits:lip-aft were in force, and witches in every assize town were as regularly burned as felons were hanged ? Such praise had continued to be given to our-code, though within thirty or forty years from the time at which he was. speaking, a woman far petty treason was to be harried to death, and a man who would f - ?ot plead was to' be pressed to death, unless tortnre extorted from him some plea. What he would- now propose would, go but to prune and train the laws, not to plough them up and plant new ones. He wished to act on a plan that would sustain and 'up hold 'the fundamental principles of British law. Nothing had been more derided in modern' times than the idea of 'lay ing down a - certain scale of punishments. But who, were the' authors of that scale' of punishments ! Why, those who framed Magna Charta six lyndred years ago. They 'had laid down'in that thirty times confirmed act a scale of punish ments, itnd if he called the attention of the House to' the words of that law of laws, -he hoped he should not shock the ears of the House, though he was well 'aware that of late 10 - fad becoMe unpopular. It was there stated, that " Liter heino"—sthe House were aware thatonost of the punishments then inflicted consisted of fines,) —" Libor 11 07120 amercet pro par no delicto secundum modum *lied; et pro magno dcligto secun &cm magnitudinem delicti, salvo rontenemento suovillanus etiam 'esdem modo amercet salvo waynagio nw " Here then it was seen that the protection designedeo be aflbrded by Magna Charta, extended to the very slaves. The modern administration of our laws, he charged with being indirect Opposition to Magna Chorea. He would ask, was it agreeable to that thirty times' confirmed Charter to put a man todeath for forging a 1/. note, or for cutting down a 'tree in an avenue or park ? Did the Barons in the 13th century think, that under Magna Chdrta the punishment of death would be inflicted for such - offences by the Judges and lawyers in the 19th century ? He then adverted to the law which " had been 'passed against all fb reigners in this country, which waft soon to come before them, and which some Gentlemen in that House were well disposed to keep out of sight as much as possible,' and proceeded to re-' mark on what had been said by Sir Matthew Hale on the sub ject of capital. punishments. That Learned Judge had said that some were of opinion that the death ought not - to be in flicted for theft, but in almost all countries theft; under aggra vated circumstances; was so punished, but in this country it rested with the Juries, and the least possiblediscretion was left to the Judges. How great was the rdvolution• tvhich 150 years had inade in our laws, since now butlittlewas left to the Juries, And such large discretion given to the Judges. But at the • time to which he referred, the, majority of the felonies now'in existence were not knoWn to y our law. It was riot then a-capi. tal'offence to steal to the value of forty shillings in a dwel ling-house. Forgery; sheep stealing, and cattle-stealing, were not crimes to bepurffahed with death. He would next inquire what was the result of the deviation' from our ancient system, which he had shown to have taken place. On this point the proof was so melancholy and so - decisive, that he need not dWell on it. From 1805 to 1809, the-average number cf capi tal convictions in a year was 381. The average numbers of the last five years was 1,260, 'being an increasa in 'the propor ' fion' of, three and a half to one in the shOrt Space of ten years. Making a deduction of the half for the increase Of our po pulation, it would then, appear 'that the average number of convictions" had been trebled within the pa-riot - file - had men tioned. This fact afforded a prima facie presumption against the system,. under which, crime had increased to an extent, and with a rapidity which he believed to be unexampled in the history of mankind. He would now compare the working of our code with that of other countries, and doing this, he thought the conclusion which he must come to was, that, our, national character had degenerated (which he did *pet • '• think any foreigner would say he believed to be the case), or that our penal code was not what it ought to be. In pro- I portion as it should be . contended that our criminal code was not defective, it Must appear that our national cha racter had declined. He noticed the Petitions which had been sent from the Jurors of Middlesex, and from various parts of the kingdom in faVour of a revision of our criminal code, and proceeded to shovi that severe punishmen were but ill calcu hlateel to prevent those offences against ts which they were di. rected. ,Where punishments considered infamous had been inflicted, they had not unfrequently been turned into tri- Umphs. Those who in some instances had been doomed to dread ful punishments for acting according : to their consciences and their faith, had found victory and triumph where .tyranny had intended to consign them to agony and shame. From this it resulted that the efficacy of all Penal Codes depended on the moral 'feeling which they excited, and this he considered one of the. most beautiful ordinations. of nature. Severe pu nishments excited abhorrence, gained for the criminal sympa thy and applause, and caused the laws and the Judges to be loaded with execration. Death under such circumstances was but death. 'Those engaged in a predatory war against the com munity calculated on the loss of 'a number of lives in 'every campaign, and from custom the parties feared death no more than the soldier who honourably fought the battles of his country; and all that awful solemnity was taken away, which would attach. to capital punishments, if sparingly and properly inflicted. If it were said that he held the language of a theorist, he should beg to vindicate himself by referring to'what had fallen froth a practical man on that subject. In 1796, a person whose name was still' distinguished in the profession of the law, Mr. Ser- Jeant Adair, who had then been for 20 years Recorder of Lon don, had said, " The complexion of our law.is too sanguinary.' It is painful to reflect th a t th e p un i s h ment o f death is not re served for the crimes of murder and treason." Was he (Sir J. Macinntosh) then to 'be considered as a visionary when lie pressed on the House that which fell far short of the principle thus contended ferhy a Learned Person who hall been for 20 years Recorder of London. T wo c i rcums t ances at the present time were common in almost every country in the civilized - world. One of these was a disposition to reform their Criminal Code—the other to introduce a system of, political equality among all religious • sects. Russia had king since . adopted these. principleS. Austria, not the worst Government in the world, but the greatest enemy to all human improve ments, was'disposed to do the same ; and ':.similar line of po licy seems about to be pursued in all countries, from the inex perienced legislation of Spain and Portugal to the matured wisdom and sober policy of the United States of America. The same -principles seemed to animate all public bodies in the civilized world, with the exception of one branch of the ' ' British Legislature, whichhe should not name.—(Hear, hear !) A milder code of laws had been adopted in France under the auspices of Buonaparte, who had taken an active part in fram ing them. This act would transmit his naive to posterity with a lustre distinct from that which grew out of war and conquest. j By favour of one of the Peers of France, lie had before him a cOpy of a Report, which sewed the working' of the new Code. That Code he was deSirous of Comparing with the Code of England. In the one there were 223 capital felonies ; 'in the Other six. These six were the following :—high Treason, which was technically defined in terms differing from those used' in this country. Murder, which was well defined. Arson. Forgeries of notes of the Bank of France and Government securities. Coining and Theft, under some of the following circumstances:-that it be done in - the night ; that it be per= petrated 'by two or more men ; that the' 'parties are armed that 'a house is boken open, or entered under the cover of legal authority; Or that arms be either used, or threatened to be used. Under the - French Code, a seventeenth Part of the offences specified were capital. Under • the English Code, about a seventh 'were punishable with death. In France, there was no transportation, and about four-fifths . of the punishments inflicted consisted of imprisonment and hard labour. 'ln England, the number of transportations were about one fourth—the punishments by imprisonment and hard labour amounted also to one fourth. The mean amount of the English population during 'the period to which his calcula tions referred, he would take at 11,000,000. The mean amount of the French population, during the same period, might be estimated, at 27,000,000, being about two and a half - to one. Such being the number, it appeared that the convictions in England- had in the first five years doubled those which had taken place in F rance , b e i ng five times as many according to the number of the people. In the five years at the end of the period referred to, the contictions 'in England cmadrupled those in France, amounting to ten times the -number in pro portion to the . population. In 'France the average number of convictions, in the first three years, was two hundred and ninety-four. The average number iii the last three years, 303, being a variation of only nitie , In England the average num ber at the first mentioned period was 349. In the latter it had risen to 1249. , This- increase,' though part of it might be - ascribed to the distress under which the people had groaned and continued to groan, lie argued, was also caused. in part by the character of o ur P ena l C o d e : 'Th e ' s it uat i on o f France, twiceinvaded, the disbanding of a large airily, and the - horrors of a thirty years war, would have led them to expect a diffe rent result. That France had escaped the' fatal increase of crime which had been witnessed in England, must he ascribed partly to the improved Criminal Code which had been adopted in that country. In this country, from the year 1805 to the year 1809, whieli was 'considered a period of prosperity, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer' was in his Paradise, and is- suing paper dreamed that it was wealth, the convictions had increased - from- 339 to 549, being.nezirly an increase of two thirds, before the pressure of severe distress had been felt, and b.efere, the adoption of the Code - Na,nolairr. The Honourable and Learned' G en tl eman argue d at considerable length -- on the difference between the two systems acted upon in England and France., The laws of France were 'intended to be exe cuted—those of England were not' to be carried-into execution. Tie object of all law was to repress disorder and to detect crime: - The best mode of accorriplishing this was to diminish the severity of punishment, so that men of humanity would he anxious to see the laws carrietl. into execution. Then the ends. of justice would be perfectly answered,'no system of espionage. (which did 'more harm than good) would• be wanted; and that duty would be well fulfilled by men of virtue, which - was now ill perforMed by vice and-depravity. " Ile . did not disapprove of transportation 'for life, but he objected to transportation for a term of years. The system aeted upon - in New South Wales was imperfect. 'The plan had been lately adopted after the separation of America from England, land sufficient care fiad, hot beeintaken to form a moral basis j for the colony. He suggested some' improvements which he conceived might be carried into effect. He - then noticed the state of our prisons, lamenting the* imperfect classification which, had as yet been effected, and which merely keeping felons by themselves, exposed .a man who had only offended by cutting dowh a tree to be the companion of a parricide. Till a better classification should be accomplished, - our prisons would continue to be -schools for thievess-our Game Laws, Poor Laws, and Revenue , Laws would people the jails, and the jails would prepare those confined in them for the gal- lows: He then pronounced an eloquent eulOgium on the' efforts of those virtuous persons and benevolent females 'who had devoted their - time 'to the' iMprovement of our pri sons. Ile considered it .to be 'a memorable circumstance that the importance of their valuable services had been recognized in a late Bill, and comparing the conduct 'of those ladies.who thus humanely employed them Selves with that of the females known in Cgtholic countries under the endearing appellation of " Sisters of Charity,"' he sheaved that even their meritorious lability; were greatly surpaSsed by , those of the. Protestant SiSters of. Charity. He particularly remark ed off the unwearied efforts of one Lady who had distin guished herself in this way, and described with much energy and feeling the gratification he had experienced from vi siting a prison, and witnessing the effects-of .her well-direct ed efforts to relieve the, wretched and reform the vicious.— He came away with that admiration 'and deep feeling which it was impossible that those who possessed the least humanity should refuse at witnessing the exertions of this female Howard. Those who performed these honourable works had done their best to teach penitence, religion, and Morality amongit the victims -of crime; but the Criminal Law met them at every Point,' and opposed an impenetrable barrier to to their efforts, rooting out and destroying the seeds of bene volence wherever they endeavoured to sow theni. Qur laws were the protection of crime, and made people shrink from en. forcing them in proportion as they were humane. This was enough to establish most satifactorily the foundation and basis of his argnMent, which consisted in' the unparalleled and cruel severity of our laws. The Hon. and 'Learned Gentleman then concluded, amidst the cheers of the House, by moving the fol lowing Resolution : , " That this House shall take under its- early consideration hi the next Session of Parliament, the means of increasing the ef= ficacy of our Criminal. Law, by abating its undue rigour, and of measures for strengthening the Police of the country ; together with measures for rendering transportatiomand imprisonment more effectual for the purposes of example and reformation." The ATTORNEY-GENERAL commenced by claiming the indulgence of the House, under the extraoril, , nary disad, 'vantage of following his Hon. and Learned Friend upon the present occasion. He trusted that he should not be considered averse from any reformation-of our Criminal Laws, be - cause he opposed the resolution now submitted to the House. His Honourable and 'Learned Friend should remember, that all the reformations which had hitherto been effected in the code of criminal punishments ' .. had been originated by eminent in dividuals connected, with . . the profesSion of the law ; anlie therefore conceived that they did not merit the stigma which -had been cast upon them. - He was convinced that the spirit of our law only annexed capital punishments to offences which imperatively called for them ; and if any particular case were pointed out to him of a contrary nature, he Should be willing Ito repeal the lama and, relieve the statute-book of its presence. The resolution of his Hon. and Learned Friend would go to cast a stigma upon the whole - Criminal Cade ' and place the Go vernment of the, country and its Criminal laws in a situation where it ought never to remain. It woultl be sending forth a, sweeping censure upon, the laws under which they could not' lie carried into practice. What had been the course which his Honsatul Learned .Friend had hitherto adopted upon this im portant question ? He first moved for a Committee to in quire into the efficacy of capital _punishments. This was granted, and the Honourable and Learned Member was a most active member of the Committee. When the Report came before the, House it recommended that in some cases capital punishments should be abolished and transportation substituted in their places. His Hon. and Learned. Friend then brought in Bills founded upon such recommendations, in same of which the House acquiesced; in Others they did not. He now came forward to call upon the House to pronounce a sweeping condemnation of the entire , code. He must confess that it appeared to him as if his, Hon. and Learned Friend was bound to have pointed out specific cases which demanded reformation, and the measures intended to effect it. If- he might be allowed to say so, he thought his Honourable and Learned Friend would have taken the more discreet course if he had brought forward the measures recommended in the , Report of_ the Committee, so as enable the House to judge and de:ermine upon their practicability: Itwas quite impossible for a Select Committee.up stairs, much less a Committee of the whole House; to examine all the criminal laws of the country in one night, or in one Session. His Hon. and Learned Friend had argued- the effect of the existing laws was to increase the number of capital crimes. He drew. tnis inference from no other facts than the prosecutions and convictions, and upon this subject he did consider the argument of his Hon and Learned Friend to be a little inconsistent. He admitted that there were some, cases which required the infliction of capital punishment, and amongst these were burglaries. But it would be found that these offences increased in the same proportion as the others; therefore, if the argument were good in one case, it was good in both. His Hon. and Learned Friend has also argued that the cases in which capital sentences were generally given, with the certainty of minor punishments being inflicted, were less efficacious in presenting crime than if the minor pu nishment alone were annexed. Butwould any man say that there would not be more terror excited where death was pos sible, than if the offender were certain that it would not be in flicted ? The Hon. and. Learned Gentleman then went into a comparison of the prosecutions and convictions for different crimes, to shew that the increase of burglaries had been equal to that of other offences. With regard to what his Honour able and Learned - Friendhad said upon the Criminal Law of Prance; he would ask him whether he was prepared to im port into this .country the whole system of. the French pre , ventive police ? If he was not, it was impossible to make any comparison between the numbers of criminal prosecutions and capital punishments in the two countries. The House could not agree in the proposed resolution. without embo dying the whole system of police, the state of prison disci pline, and secondary punishments. And as to the Code Napo leon, which his Honourable and Learned Friend had so highly eulogised, they must take all the matters he had pointed out into 'their consideration, before they made any com parisons upon the number of criminal prosecutions. At a time when a Gentleman had- been sent •out expressly' , for the purpose of collecting information as to the state of cri minals who were transported, at a time when a Report was expected- from the Committee upon the state of the Police, and also one upon the subject of prison discipline, his Ho nourable and Learned-Friend had thought proper to call upon the House to vote this resolution. The resolution pledg ed the House "to take under its early consideration in the next Session of Parliament the means of increasing the efficacy of the criminal law by abating its ,undue rigour." Upon this point he should observe, that when any cases were brought forward which-proved this undue rigour, he should he ready to assist in abating it. The Resolution then spoke of " measures for strengthening . the Police," and it was well known that a Committee were sitting - for that purpose at, the present time. It then went on " together with measures for rendering transportation and imprisonment more effectual for. the purposes of example and reformation.". These objects, lie contended, were also under the most serious and earnest con sideration of the Government, and he considered the whole to be perfectly unnecessary. He hoped, therefore, that his Hon. and Learned Friend would postpone his resolution until he was prepared to follow it up by the . practical measures which he conceived necessary. Ile should vote against the motion, be cause he thought the time ill-chosen and not opportune; and that, under all the circumstances of the case, the resolution itself was unnecessary. It would only have the effect of placing the Administration of the law' in an odious situation, and one in which it ought never to stand. He should not meet it by a, direct negative, but he begged leave to move the pre vious question. Mr. F. BUXTON, after eulogizing the speech of Sir James Mackintosh, said he was ready to concede to the Attorney-Ge neral that the possibility of suffering death was an additional terror 'to prevent the commission of crime. But he had in his possession the Returns from Ireland, which proved the inef ficacy of that law altogether. • The number of persons tried for crimes not capital was 6000, of which 3000 were convict ed. The number of trials for capital crimes was 2,300, of which only , two hundred .were found guilty. Thus, upon the former, the convictions amounted to one half, while in the latter there• was only a proportion of one-seventh. The chance of conviction upon k capital charge was that of four to one ; arid, upon a charge not capital,. as one to three. This was the same in England, and it was found to be so in Ame rica; before the mitigation of their penal code. In the year before that Act, the proportion of acquittals • was one-half, and the following year only one in seven. It was a fact, that there were a very great many. more capital punishments inflicted in England than in France, and it was therefore ne cessary for them to examine why it was so. The Hon. Member then contended that transportation was not a punishment, but rather a bounty upon cruise. For this he had the authority of. Lord Liverpool, Lord Sidmouth, Lord Eldon, and Lord Ellen borough ; and he had also that of the principal convicts them selves. He had in his hand a letter from a person named Clark, W to his wife in Kent, dated New South ales, where lie had been sent as a convict. He would read the letter, which was a confidential and private one-(a laugh)—with the permission of the House, and with the permission of the person to whom it was written. The letter stated that Providence had taken care of the winter as 1w always did.—(A laugh.)—lle had great plenty provided for•him, and a pound' note in his pocket whenever he wanted it. The winter in that country was hotter than-the summer—(A loud laugh.)—than the summer in Eng land. They never: had ice thicker than a shilling, and the peaches ran wild about the country—(Loud -laughter.)—and the grapes hung in clusters upon the rocks. He concluded by saying, that it (being transported) was the best thing he ever done. He {Mr. - Buxton) wont(' ask the House if this were a descriptionlikely to deter :rom' the commission of crime, or to excite towards it ? There was another' case of a convict who wrote home that he was • quite happy, that lie was servant to Squire-Love, who every body thought a very clever fellow. Now he happened to know something of this Squire Love, which he would relate to the House. He was a man who embezzled large sums of money from his employers in the country, and had made clear off with it to a vessel just , going tb sail from one of our ports. Here he was taken and committed to New gate. But the severity of our criminal code was his protec tion : all his offences appeared to be capital ones, and has pro secutors were about to set him at liberty, when it was disco vered that he might be charged with the minor offence. He was convicted and transported to New . South. Wales, notwith standing that he (Mr. Buxton) went to the Home Secretary's Office, and recommended that he might be sent on board the hulks. The consequence was, that he - carried off the stolen property, and now lives in the style described by his servant, and was reputed a very clever Gentleman; which no doubt he was. , The Hon. Member proceeded to enforce this argument, and concluded by supporting the Resolution. Mr. T. COURTENAY could not go along with his Hon. and Learned Friend in the propriety of the resolution: If there was anyone subject more than another, upon which it was de sizable not to set the public mind afloat, and then leave it foe 12 months, it was the one before the House. The principles laid down in the resolution had been -assented to, and acted upon by the House, and it was therefore unnecessary that they should again pledge themselves in the manner proposed, and being unnecessary, he held it to be mischievous. He was quite sure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was sincere in the opinion that the measures he proposed were necessary, and it was be cause he (Ms. C.) felt as conscientiously that they were unne cessary, that be should vote against them. Whether the va rious measures alluded to by the resolution were desirable or not, he was quite sure that they would not be forwarded one Step by the proposition before the House. A Committee had recommended the introduction of several measures, which . had been sanctioned by the House. It would then be advisable to leave the 'subject to the investigation of a Committee, and he expressed a hope that the Hon. Baronet would not presi his motion to a division. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the duties of the office he held were so deeply connecetd with the motion, that he could not permit the question to pass without a few observations. He concurred in the points stated by the Hon. and Learned Gentle man, and respected all those who had been engaged in the ame lioration a prison-discipline. No persons had been more mis represented. He had sat with Gentlemen upon inquiry into prison-discipline, and was ready to bear testimony that their objects were not only humane, but that there was an inten tion to introduce improvements into prison regulations. He thought improvements might be made in prison-discipline which would lead to the reducing of crime. It was his intention on Friday to submit to the House a Bill for tie purpose of ap, plying a remedy to the evil arising froth improper discipline ill prisons, and was it possible he could agree to a resolution which deferred to next Session a subject which . ought to b e decided next w ee k ? With respect to transpottation he sidered it a question .of great importance which ought to be fairly considered. It was a quest i on w hi c h must affect prison discipline; because, if they.. made transportation 3 secondary punishment, and increased punihment in Pri sons for minor offe nce s, a p rem i um, as i t were, would ,` ~e held out for, the commission or transportable offences. WI ;', respect to a More effectiVe Rplice, he was of opinion that I ought to be made mo re preventive. He did not !neap to tn troduce a system of espionage.; but he thought a syste'll, preventive police might be established in the Metropolis great benefit to tbe •public. The adopti on o f suc h a syste;',; was of so much i m p or t ance , t h at h e cou ld not consen t to postpone it to n ex t S ess i on . I n a f ew d ay i h e should -lire; Pre sent a Report from the Committee on P o li ce , an d h e pledge d himself to present a plan for the improvement - of the poli G o e. With respect td the 'increased efficiency of the '' c .h'e persiraded attention cou ld b e pa id to t h e su bj ect d ur i ng t he present Session,and it would be hardly fair to gdopt a resolu tion which postponed the consideration of the subject until the House had seen the plan. Something ought to be done 03 the subject of transportation, but he was oblied to defer thc, consideration of that important question until he saw the re' port of a Gentleman whohad been sent to m a k e inquirl at New South Wales. Whilst he .was on that topic he 1111g4t. mention what had occu rre d t o hi m w i t h a view to the bettn - _, employment of convicts. 'The H on . an d L earne d G en tleultei had said some plan might be adopted for sending convicts t° British settlements. That w as . his opinion before he heard such a proposition i n th a t House. It occurred to him it ring' lt _ be proper to send to B ermu d a _ a certa i n - num b er of conv i c ts to be employed on public works, taking, security for m o ra l behg viour. The Works o f B ermu d a were capa bl e of e mployilg„ during several ye ars a cer t a i n num b er o f conv i cts. H" e 0 mentioned this to prove thesubject had not escaped his atte n : bon, and as soon as th e re p or t f r o m New South Wales O s made, he should bring it before the HOuse. It would nOt advisable at that period of the Session to condemn the Grim ;e Laws, without they were in a situation t o propose infinedia'd remedy. Learned When the Hon. and Gentlem a n shou t t ,' o bring ' the subject fairly under disc uss i on next S ess i o n, - should be ready to enter upon it. Mr. C. WILSON opposed the resolution. n a Mr. C. WYNN rose amidst a loud cry of " made a few observations, under repeated expressions of tri;:; tience, and a desire for the res u lt. W e cou ld on l y - co ll ec t, t" he opposed the motion. , Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in reply, was ready to c o n cede the part of his resolution, which related to prison discipline. to statement of the Right lion. Gentleman that he intende d bring before the House that subject in the course of the prof sent Session, would supersede th e necessity he had been o n av of introducing the subje c t. The lion. and Learned G e ntien, , consented to leave prison discipline out of hi s reso l u tion, %, defended the remaind er , an d d ec l are d hi s i ntent i on to t a ke sense of the House on it. The Gallery was then cleared for a division ; the nilm b3rs were- For the Resolution . . . . . 117 Against it . . . 101 Majority in favonrof the motion . ---IG THE NAVIGATION BILL. ',a' Mr. WALLACE moved that th e above Bill be read a du time. Mr. DAVENPORT was of opinion that the Bill was he' ly injurious to th e s ilk- manu f acturers o f t hi s coun t r y. lie the m wished the promoters: of it b a d a tt en d e d a g ood old say' silke w W o e u l l l alone." o e n ' imported' If into measure this ea • in such quantities as to produce a g l u t o f th e market, W ch 11.1 would necessarily prove very detrim en t a l t o our home r tl3 ' nufacturers. -He hoped 'the House wo u ld t a k e into consi deration the large sums which h a d b een i nves t e d in the s manufactures of ,this-couptry, and th e grea t num b e r of in viduals to, which these manufactures gave employment. I t w 3 country rem'eie t Italy Pa ss ' calculated that between 4 and MAO persons were employ ed -5, in the•silk trade, most of whom wo u ld, if th e Bill were to Vrhe be thrown upon the poor rates for support. t° Objecting nie Bill upon these grounds, he moved th a t it be read a third tt this day six Months. • that ' Mr. ROBERTSON also opposed the Bill, on the groun d tr y. it would prove injurious to the gener a l ind u stry of the oN l i " o ci To the mercantile interest it was particularly objectionable ' g o f it was calculated to put a stop to ,our intercourse with s° ° ;. - ke the most distant ports of the globe. He ridiculed Wll3' e%. designated the romantic notion of making this c oun t r y s et if 1 0 ample of a liberal policy to other nations. He was of ofinn ot aa that we should gain no equivalent for concessions that W ac make. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY expressed himself hostile to the Bill. , • Mr. LENNA RD was glad to perceive, that one of the clauses of the Bill afforded permission for trading b e tween this coupev_ try and the South American Colonies, but he at the sam e regretted that the Independence of those States had not formally recognized by the British Government. pros Mr. LyTTLETON wished the Bill to pass its r"- stage. no° Sir M. W. RIDLEY opposed the Bill. Under the r ot system of taxation which prevailed in.this country, it vlos_ the r possible that our 'merchants could compete with those of nations . .. - • • allu" Mr. WALLACE maintained that no injury to the to facturers of the country would be effected b the Bill. be- Sir J. BOUGHEY could not support the Amendment,aito, cause it would have the effect of getting rid of the Di ll r, al gether, which, his opinion, contained much good mat te though some parts of it were objectionable. d bi Mr. CANNING concurred in the sentiments deliver e C o. the Hon. Member who hadpreceded him. He could n ot 1,0 5 it sent to give a vote against the whole of tbe Bill. many respects an excellent measure,. and he thought his, y ip& Hon. Friend was entitled to the thanks of th e coun t r y for ;0 1 brought it forward. The importation of silk from .13 t 7 that had lately increased very- much, gr ea tly t o th e benefiti• re etli country. The present measure would therefore run u t n against a vast interest in England, an inte res t th a t had O w - u irea a magnitude so fearful - as, if at all interfered with, req were the most delicate hand 'to touch it. If an exception 110. not made on this head (so we understood the Kie t e pt o f nourabie Gentleman) he would vote for the amend' his Hon—Friend the Member for Staffordshire thir d but if that point were conceded, he would vote for the reading T. the Bill. for the Mr. . WILSON thought it would be much better country if the Bill did not pass at present. ati° l3s Mr. ANSON did not see the necessity for making alte, t o so in laws which had been so long es t a bli s h e d, and from Iv' we re much benefit had been derived.- He hoped his sentirnen ts , 4 o of sufficiently iiberal ; but he did not u nderstand that sPe.' ye be liberality which would allow every other country to recelhould, nefit and emolument at the expence of E ng l a nd. Ile ' therefore vote against the Bill. . ore.' Mr. EGERTON did not see the necessity for this 11 ? e !' of Trade was, now going on very well, and he could no t 5e on reason for interfering with it. Why not suffer it t flourishing as it had done for some time? . 0 ,1 Wa g Mr. DICKINSON observed, Wats very large cor`ladig' employed in the trade now carried on for the raw silk of • winch was better than Italian silk. t ole' Mr. RICARDO Said, that the trade in question, tho u „a to scribed to be an improving trade, was in tact acknowleub he a bad trade : and the proof of its being a bad tra AS .eo be found in' the fact that it required special protectn, it was'nurtured by protection, he, on a point of priori get' 'stead of being glad that it increased, felt considerabl e r e do- When the Agriculturists called for protection, the M ai l l ia file turers argued that it should not be granted; and why shoittio latter now call for the extension of the same p r inciple to, sa id, —The Right HOnourable Gentleman (Mr. Wallac e) , the that England should show to other countries, even at a 105.2,00.. example of opening a free trade, as if the adoption of t he ciples of free trade were calculated to sacrifice the interes ts country. . Now it was on the perfect conviction that tl,lf, j oio; doh of those principles would be highly beneficial to (o va and from •no other feeling whatsoever, that he soPP eo un" them. , —(Hear !)—He was sure if they showed to other_ o uld tries that England benefited by the systern,those countries ', t' Ills ha be eager to adopt it. The Right Hon. Gentleman use d , hearty , thanks for the measures he had heretofore intrr: sole and he hoped he would continue to persevere in the course. cunt n Sir T. LETHBRIDGE defended the system o f Pc 9.1 P - i t te duties, and observed that, o at, as a proof of their utility,o,_..ished only necessary to observe that British trade bad most when they were adopted. This and the oth elicited thee which had emanated from the Board of Trade, ha d ;;, us t saY: thoseenat throughout the country. He r ice get" that plans were undigested, and would proo severalermischief-in the country. He had conversed with .nd they sons who were deeply conversant with this subject, w hic. 'had all expressed their astonishment at the measur b elieved had been sanctioned by the Board of Trade. Ire once ° that commerce lied arrived at its highest pitch in conseq . „., t it the measures devised by the wisdom of our ancestors was now the fashion to say that commerce , had attained_thirear, sent commanding eminence in spite of those measures% tale , hear !)---He thought this a most absurd opinion ; allet