The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-14 00:00:00

e rcival*; ave sta,te° id - irilof i then so t sent ther'; he shoal", if to 1 0 1 3 • said, " tt would be lan for the cisting plan, and a street to corner, it d struck I ri with luring t was tlOt Soon aft n - ten,V;IP the 'offlel r pap.laq— tiave-jem", anae4 isoo re, if/V . O iesced , that he declined answering the questions, because he dicf not wieli to be 'brought into public notice, unless obliged to be 40 . The Hon. Member stated that he had applied to Mr. White again, not only on his own account, but for the sake of truth and justice, but with no better success. Yet not kithatanding the reluctance which that Magistrate had shein, . n ewas willing to r es t hi s case upon t h e answers which he should :Me, at the bar of that House, to the question of whether he did not awe t o hi m, i n a considerable degree, the restoration and the maintenance of the peace on that day?—(Hear hear, hear!) \i'lat then was hi s o ff ence ? Was it that he had' paid the last nark Of respect to a deceased Sovereign ? If so, he had only done.what Ministers themselves did ? for they paid her the r e e 3 P (* ect appointing a guard of honour to attend her re ma i ns . li' this was not his offence, was it that of having stopped the elision o f bl ood ? He spoke not of the' original provocation ail/ea-to the soldiers, but when he arrived at the spot, the con duct of the soldiers was, at least, intemperate. Was he to be turned out of the army for using language of rebuke to sol diers under such circumstances ? That language would not ?fl ake willows and orphans; and he was quite sure that the soldiers would thank him. for interfering after they had time r": cool reflection. He had always felt a pride in wearing the aritish uniform because it was worn by brave men ; but he was the more proud of it because it was recognised in Europe as being worn by men who supported the law, and who were p r otected by it —(Cheers.)—Wev hater might be the decision of t he House, lie should feel conscious within himself that on r i l c ?e 14th of August he had faithfully discharged his duty to his , tog and country, and he now called upon the House to re= (l ess the' injuries which he.had received.—(Cheers.)—He con ;'lll,led by moving " For copies of the correspondence between I' Royal Highness the Commander in Chief; Lord Viscount 'mai-mouth, and Sir Robert Wilson, in the months of September ` unl October last." Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Honourable Mem er had set out in his speech by disavowing the narrow basis of Personal consideration, and of resting his case upon the broader heof the general interests and liberties of the people. He ii . 43 prepared to resist the motion of the Hon. Member upon Le very same . principle, as one tending to attack one of the ?en provisions of the Constitution, and thereby to infringe ?en the liberties of every Englishman. If there was any one t ' e L ee th, e prerogatives of the Crown more indisputable, and more t , - ,'''sPoted 'than another, it was that which recognized its n r"‘ v er to remove individuals from the Army at all times, with assigning a cause, much more shewing a reason. This pre “);Zative rested upon the most ancient usage in all periods, ` t l.4 the could produce examples upon examples, of its exercise in Netinies which Gentlemen opposite were accustomed to refer le al the best, and the most worthy to be follower'. B u t h e Ivc.Aild only appe a l to one s i ng l e fact, which would do away I th the necessity for his referring to those precedents without o • t iolber by would then whichappal to theis case could fact that fin the year 1734, Bills thened if it required Viee- presented to both Houses of Parliament to restrain the rcise of this prerogative, and in all the debates it was ad tbiliretby both sides that it did exist in full force. Since that erne no laws had been passed to alter that prerogative, or to af :et the full exercise of its power. He was prepared to contend, e ° t• only that the prerogative existed, but that none was more eressary, cot for the advantage of the Crown, but, as all other Pre rogative,' were held, for the benefit of.the - people. Without discipline could not be maintained in the .army.—(Hear, ti a r 1 1 —He repeated it, that withbut this power in the Crown, necessary discipline of the army could not be main -4'l.—U:beers !) —lf an officer could not be dismissed torn the army without the consent of his fellow-officers, they i'erc creating a fourth estate in the realm.—(Hear, hear !) e d o d thkt Parl y i ament wou once make arm independ of the Crow, e Id soon see that the the Army would ent make itself in. I, el3e would be t of th found written em. Look at in thletters e annals of our history, and the 4 of blood, that when the ornament detached the A rmy f rom t h e Ki ng, t h e f i rst act of fl }l le Army was to turn the Parliament out of doors—t Hear, 2 4 r, hear !)—He mu s t con f ess hi s surpr i se to h ear t h ese t hi ngs El e llported by Hon. Gentlemen who were so used to cry out tE a inst.the Army and its d a n gers . H e con t en d e d, alien, that "14 prerogative clearly and undoubtedly exist e d ; b u t h e was ( Pite ready to admit that it was one which was only . to i),e exercised under the responsibility of those who advised , I `,, and must be, consequently, prepared to stand by the t!-Irice which they had given. —(Cheers from the Opposi -I,,°_,)—Ele must also insist, that the prerogative, under ,;:r1 'responsibility, being wholesome and necessary, Parlia " Ought not to canvass its exercise without just and clear, (eonds. There should be strong presumption of abuse.— ,Nl;eers from some of the Opposition.)--He repeated, that there t o Uld be strong presumptions of abuse, and he was prepared tj.l!-a, that there was no such presumption in the present case. ntinued cheers.)---The Hon. Member had insinuated that th, ho„?tility of Ministers had been provoked by his activity in tiouse.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.)—This was 14 7 'Y plaCing a high value upon himself, and which, perhaps, eeaers would not badisposed to grant. But the Hon. Member tZ4inly.did seem to think that Ministers were afraid of his A. n e nts, and so wished to get rid of him.—(Loud shouts of hear p c the Opposition benches.)—And he believed that there were te;ftieians in that House who could think meanly enough of pi ts opponents, to believe that they would be guilty of such a trick. If Ministers were prepared to ac t u p on suc h prin hte'h were there no other Gentlemen in that House who alsb e e l e , can - missions in the Army, that were in the habit of syste 4 i e e ally opposing Government ? If that were the ground up on b e !en they ac ted, was there not a Gallant General, who, he di,rfd, represented some Scotch Burghs, would have been wi l l r ossed long before this. If that were the ground upon t i l 'eh the Honourable Member himself was dismissed, why 1; Ministers wait till the 14th of August, 1821 ? He be iiefveed that they would not ontohve been wanting in opportunities, I s e l u ,,Y had been disposed act, long before that period.— r fee `lt was a notorious fact, that at all periods there had keen st ep Military officers who always voted against the Mini s el; lie denied, therefore, that any ground existed for such sae s erge- -.Without going into any of the d e t a il s th roug h e el eo the Honourable Member had travelled, there was tire ground to justify the exercise of the King's preroga rilts4 what the Hon. Member had himself admitted. He would , that where they found a person holding the King's Coin kitse i °; and wearing orders which he could only hold by the cOnsent, remaining with a mob of persons who had to' ft jnitted acts of disturbance and resistance to the lawful au that was enough ; that was a direct insult to the King. *ts What should he say, when, according to that person's own se e e ro, ent, he came and found the King's troops in a state he' e e a his military experience enabled him to know was that of tee s "g repulsed and broken, and reduced to the necessity of de. liZt.ig their lives ?—(Loud cheers.)—After having risked their i v y in the discharge of their duty, he did that which he knew 'al e the greatest act of military insubordination—he interfered . t • o hlthein. they had disgraced themselves.—(Loud chee r i ng .) 4 1 v 1 , 1. • Witr.sori—" No, no; I said they disgraced them 140TY firing." i kit t , r . , PALMERSTON continued.—The Hon. Member te ' . .!ave known that he was guilty of a breach of discipline s fe - `erfering at all with troops on duty, who were not under tle'''oreand. He therefore contended that the dismissal of the lie,,4ourable Member was a just and proper exercise of an in. h0 e , 4 11 3 t 'prerogative of the Crown ; and he called upon the 4 e to reject the motion. f.eli n r eloA3lßTON said, that if he entered the House with the le g B , of indignation at the treatment of his ga ll a nt F r i en d, the f eelings had been increased by the sneering tone which e 'i le °l :de Lord,had adopted him, as well as towards u Pir ' 4 nt Officer, whose Military services would perhaps As te a ,eo, mparison with the civil ones of the Noble Lord.— ord t _toe antiquity of the prerogative upon which the Noble Iths dwelt he was prepared to deny it ; for it was not (k‘e'rr4Olafortune of our ancestors to be acquainted with standing Ossi le s- The real offence of his Majesty Friend was that of laeelt attended the funeral of her Majesty at all. But he had it e" , as it were, the servant of the Queen while she lived, and teeeeanie his duty to pay her this last tribute of respec With t Y'e t atd , to prerogatives being infallible how did it c happen t )L ? : 1 4' had frequently been abandoned'? Was it not a pre. tifi t a, ve of the Crown to remove the Judges; and had not lt4.Prerogative been abandoned by the late King . at the outset %14 1 } tt i r eigo ? That was an act that had been most highly praised, , e believed so. The Noble Lord had said that it was writ , blood, that an army made independent by the i kl y 'ottnent had brought a Mon arc h t o t h e sca ff o ld. H e s h ou ld it ooked for some anterior cause for that event, and !a r letild have found it in the acts of the Monarch, endea ,,kng to stretch the power of prerogatives beyond his right. s on. Friend had exposed himself to personal danger, a re e rer :.which no man had ever despised more than himself. irl g-the ball pass near his face, he very naturally turned *44tp ~( 1, and seeing the soldiers about to reload, lie told them it Tep --a.aceful to continue firing after the disturbances were i l The Nobl e L or d oppos i te thought it an act of insubordi kilr! for his Hon. Friend to interfere at all. Undoubtedly p hi his lion. Friend been on duty, it would have been insulal l oti t tl ! t _ te t' but he was merely an fficer on half-pay, in plain !ve, e ", and he spoke to the soldiers in a civil capacity. There "e thought no man, not even he though the Noble Lord 10 V t. te „. l %w_ho would not interfere upon such en occasion. Ile 44. thought it was the noblest of the many noble traits !'e,';eeharacter of his Honourable Friend, that he had inter. to prevent bloodshed. It was distinguishing part of for he had ' a • ooble character, displayed it even amid the er e th e He wan He really thought it was most degrading aari sen r House to be compelled to enter upon this discussion ; nd g , as it did, out of a transaction in which the soldiery to 4 ' u nlereil sonn f fellow-subjects. He had aright si,..:etilluticittiomnt,birydeor,nfeoer osuc, had been the character given to that of . the constitutional tribunals. He (Mr. ..o)iacoieuil4odraliod no distin c ti on b etween the arguments of the . and those of the Minister of War, on the cases of 4.duty,. 4l ° SOmr he, peeful . ht 3 110 , 5 ,04 idintro antiPre' 'thl t nn Wlt~ l man , iveg o dinner. I wag tlar had be e on the. nost val id); and ha moo' 'removal y of 034' eceasol ; I•Vb. O ious ru- at least )13nnin5 Queen's repeat iship t) 1 ananded I 1 111 Ind that his sop t he Wan be sent sed and nder-iv - I not be that it ned no 1-Chief rightnn. tpt hlm Ililitarf ylor, to he ease ,td Gout igh rid him Inform power of Parliament than its own discretion,—(l-Jear„ hear!) It followed, that it waS`riot - beCieis4'file House cettlefirtititute an inquiry into every act of the executive, they should there- fore do so. When the House was incited tmi 'go into the pre sent question, it became highly important for them to look al the consequence of charging themselves with inquilies of this description. They would 'charge themselves witis.the task of revising the prerogative Acts of the Sovereign; and especially upon military subjects. Before the bringing for ward of the present motion, he had always understood that it was the undoubt e d privilege of the Sovereign of Eng land to dismiss if he pleased any officer of his army,. without a trial; but front the law, as it had been iiecicred by Hon. Members opposite, the commission of an Officer was in the nature of a freehold tenure; that to take it awarwasnei• titer more nor less than puislic rohbery, and that the power of the Crown could not legally affect a Military Officer with= out the previous sanction of a Court Martial. He thought however, that when the House carue to sift the present ques tion to the bottom, they would find it was,..whether confi dence could be reposed, and not whether any crime bad been committed. The Civil Government could not exist an boor if tier principle of confidence were withdrawn. He pledged himself to &hew that it was not necessary for an Officer to he tried before he was dismissed. The Noble Marquis here read an extract from the Articles of War, which declared, its the language of the Sovereign, " No officer shall be cashiered without an order from us, or - a court-martial."—(Sir Robert Wilson here inquired, across the table, what was the outlier rity from which the Noble Marquis was quoting ?)—The Mar quis answered, " from a he. Articles of War, which were regu larly legalized r by the Mutiny Act."—He read a paper in his hand, strewing 2t2 instances of dismissal without court-mar tial, within the last five years.—(Cheers.)—lt was singular that the 11611. Member had found nothing unconstitutional in this practice, until it was applied to himself, There were even cases of dismissal after the person had beets 'acmplitted by a court-martial. There were a thousand circumstances affecting character, affect ing. the bar:nosey imf a regiment and other military subjects which could not be broright before a court-martial, and yet which rendered a dismissal net justifiable, brit absolutely necessary. Nothing was more com mon titan fur the Clown to aggravate the sentence of a court martial; and every officer entered the Array With a hell know ledge of the principle upon which that Army existed. He really felt that he had been stating merely a succession of truisms to the House; but fie would refer to an.authoiity noon the subj e ct w hi c h, h e appre h en d e d , wou ld meet with every deference front the Holt. Members opposite. It was the opinion of the present Lord Erskine, when a similar case was dated fron t Serj e ant s ' I r rn i n t h e year I sot, and was in the following words;—" I ass bound to add, that the parties are wholly without remedy. The will of the Sovereign is time law, wi It respect to time commissions of military officers. .When a military officer is dismissed, his military character is gone; and even if he Las purchased his com mission he is without a remedy. He enters the army know ing lb s; or at least he ought, to know it."—(Cheers.) — This was an authority which he thought would satisfy the - Hon. Members; but he would rifer to another—it was that of Sit Charles Morgan, . the President of a Costa Martial which was lied upon a military Officer.—(The NobleMar (lois here read a short extract from the opinion of Sir Charles Morgan, declaringthat it was quite . a 'sufficient authority for the discharge of an officer, thatt he Kin!: did nut think it ex po bent any longer to employ him.)—After such authority, he trusted that he should bear no more intimations that the Commission of an Officer was his freehold, Thistonstitu tl,,nal p ,Aver of the Sovereign Was lodged in him upon the wisest principles. It was necessary that he should repose confidence in his Officers; arid that confidence Might be shaken by many circumstances which woold not admit of dis closure before a court martial. He would again admit the power of the House as fully as it was alleged; bell did the Hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. N. Calvert) thitik that the' House would be well employed, if, instead of giving their at tention to the distressei of the country, they were to go inmo an inquiry at the Bar of the House, upon the statement which had been that night made by the Hurt Mover? Did Bethink that the.Hoose would he well. engaged its hearing such evi dence as had been adduced before tine tate memorable Coro ners' Inquests ; especially as the House, not having the power to hear evidence upon oath, the witnesses would have to depose on their honour? —(A laugh.)—Did he mean to say that the mere absence of counter-statement justified the pre sent motion ? It was by no means impossible that the Hon. Mover himself, in the view he had feirmed of his own case, thought it was a fit one for the interference of theHouseys r He disclaimed all personal feelings towards the Honourable Member. He could not possibly have any towards hint, arid he trusted the Honourable MeMber would believe him when he said that he had no wish to give hint pain, or to affect his pecuniary means; and although the Hon. Member for Shrewsb u ry, (Mr. ilennet) had called him and his col leagues a band of plunderers, he really believed the Hots. Member himself would not join in the charge. Every thing had been laid at the door of Government ; te,id the eir: curustance about the 'Hort. Member's son, Of which be (the Marquis) felt it almost necessary to say he had never heard before, had been brought forward with every possible effect. It had been said that Miniiters were anxious for an opportu nity to dismiss ; tint could this he advanced as a serious pro position ? Could Hon. Members call to mind • do acts of discretion, to say the least of them, upon which occasion would not be wanting, if it were wished? 'Phis, however, was a part of the subject which• was personal, and he would as much as possible avoid it. .He asked how the House could entertain the question ? If the Him. Member and Ministers were at issue upon the facts, they must hear 1501 soldiers em one side and 300 constituents, perhaps,' of West minister on the other;—(Hear, hear!)—and without the power of examining them upon nath. He Was willing to give the Hon. Member everrcredit for the popularity Ire had acquired.; but did not that very popularity render him more dangerous in the situation in which he admitted lee had placed himself ? The Heretic, - he contended, ought not to institote an inquiry in the present ease, but leave the King's preroga tive to take its own course.—((heers from the Opposition.)— The cases he had instanced ir) jtistifying the execution of the prerogative, he would not apply to time Hon. Member; 'but it was not because a crime could not be established •upon Old Bailey principles that the Sovereign was to forbear exercising his prerogative. The Sovereign was entrusted with time coos: _ . the Duke of Bolton and Lord Cobham, in which cases a pro test was signed by 36 Peers, besides the two concerned. Here the . Hon. Member read the Prot6st, which declared that the undersigned Peers conceived they had " a right to inquire into the exercise of the Prerogative in a case wherein valuable Officers had been dismissed the service without any cause as signed ;—that they were the more anxious for inquirY,lest the world, without it, should suppose that. the Parliamentary con duct of those Noblemen had been the cause of their dismissal; and lest a bad Minister in after times should avail himself of that precedent to remove a person whose conduct in Parlia ment was obnoxious to him."—(Hear, hear !)—His Honour able Friend had a right to know who were his accusers. He had solemnly denied all knowledge of the charge against him. He had applied to the Duke of S ork, to the Noble Lord lately at the head of the Home Department, and to Magistrates sup posed to know something relating to the charge, but without effect. No man, he believed, could hear the speech of his Hon. Friend, and not believe him innocent of the charge of stimu lating the people. to violence, and of obstructing the funeral procession. Upon his conscience, he (Mr. L.) believed his Honourable Friend to be perfectly innocent. He believed him when he pledged himself to prove his innocence, and that night his Honourable Friend had redeemed his pledge. If the Noble Lord had chosen to rely entirely upon the prerogative of the Crown, he might have done so ; but having referred to the statement of his Honourable Friend, he (Mr. L.) conceived the Noble Lord was bound to make out something of a case in answer to it. If all his Majesty's Ministers approved of the dismissal of his Honourable Friend, surely they would not ap prove of the system of continued persecution which had been carried on against him since ; and of which he would give the House an instance. One of the sons of his Honourable Friend had been placed at the Military College as an Officer's son, and a letter had been received from the College by his Honour able Friend since his dismissal, dated the 3tl of October last, stating, that his son was no longer to be considered the son of an Officer, and that the difference between 751. a year and .1251. a year (the latter being the sum paid by private gentle men for their sons), must now be paid by his Honourable Friend.,--(Hear, hear, hear!)—Thus had it been endeavoured to carry the sysem of persecution into the inmost recesses of his family arrangements. This, however, was but a n e x a mpl e of the practice no w generally observed .by Government ; wit ness the dismissal of Lord Fitzwillican, for attending a Reform Meeting, and the dismissal of Lord Fife, for voting for the re peal of the Malt Tax. All these acts chewed, in his opinion, a deliberate intent to destroy independence and establish a mili tary despotism. Was this to be considered constitutional ? W ere military officers to be the slaves of the' Ministers of the day ? It' they were, where was to be that noble character, that high-mindedness which distinguished the English Officer from that of every other country ? It' such acts were to pass unnoticed the Government would, he repeated, become a mili tary despotism. The services of his Honourable Friend were known and admitted. Whenever there was danger he had always been found at his post; but never was his name to be found in the list of Rewards.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He was a gallant and able soldier who deserved well of his country, and in whose dismissal every constitutional principle had been vio lated. The Hon. Member concluded by declaring his intention to support the motion. Mr. N. CALVERT admitted the prerogative, but thought it should be exercised under the controul of Parliament. lie had come down to the House with an opinion somewhat against the Hon. Member; but having heard his statement, and the speech of the Noble Lord in answer, he resolved to support the motion.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) Sir ISAAC COFFIN said he had served his Sovereign fifty years, and had always understood that an Officer on half-pay might be dismissed without any reason being assigned. This had been completely decided in the case of Lord George Sack ville. In the present instance he could not bring himself to believe that the prerogative had been harshly exercised. • . • Sir RONALD FERGUSSON said the Noble Lord opposite had been pleased to observe upon his parliamentary con duct. He knew not, and he cared not, whether he was to be the next victim—(Hear, hear, hear!)—but notwithstand ing the power of Ministers and their adherents, he was not to be deterred from giving an independent vote in that House.— lie did not deny the prerogative of the Crown, but he con tended that it must be exercised under the responsibility of Ministers. Their conduct on the occasion now before the House was, in his opinion, a miserable, base assassination of private diameter, for the purposes of political intrigue. They might shelter themselves under the prerogative, as they did on the alanchester occasion, but they had profaned the King's name, not only in that and the present instance, but also in the dismissal of Sir Robert Baker, the Police Alagistrate.—(Hear, hear, hear !) Lord PALMERSTON begged to assure the gallant General that he had not the slightest intention to reflect upon his Parlia mentary conduct • he had merely said that no O ffi cer h a d ever been dismissed the service for his conduct in Parliament, and had instanced the gallant General, who had always (conscien tiously and constitutionally, no doubt) voted against his Ma jesty's Ministers. He was therefore justified in contending that the reason given on the other side for the dismissal of the Hon. Mover, was not the true one. Mr. BENNET said, that although his Honourable Friend was no longer an Officer in the British .service, he stood high in rank abroad, and was possessed of a character as a soldier of which no Minister could deprive him. He should always call him the gallant Officer as he had been ac customed to do. He assured the House that he' could bear testimony to the accuracy of the statement of his gallant Friend:. He (Mr. Bennet) accompanied the funeral proces sion of her late Majesty to do honour to the• character of that illustrious deceased, and to mark his hatred of her persectitors. Up to the arrival of the procession at Cumberland Gate, he accompanied his Hon. and Gallant Friend the whole of the way ; and lie could declare that with respect to the whole of what passed during that time, the assertions of his Hon. and Gallant Friend were perfectly correct. For the sake of the argument he would admit the King's Prerogative; but it should not be forgotten, that the Prerogative must be exercised by responsible advisers, and all that was desired was to know who those advisers were on the present occasion. The Noble Lord opposite had not met the statement of his lion. and Gallant Friend by one single piece of evidence. He had merely perverted that statement. He (Mr. B.) contended that the present motion ought to be agreed to, upon the principle of the case of Lord Chatham in the year 1809. Lord Chatham was the Commander of the Walcheren expedition, and had privately conveyed to the King a paper libelling th e conduct of a gallant O ffi cer (Si r Richard Strachan.) A Reso lution was proposed for an Address to his Majesty, calling for the production of that paper; and so strong was the justice of the case, that although the motion was resisted by all the in fluence of Ministers, the Address was carried by a majority of seven : and the paper, when produced, was the means of forcing Lord Chatham out of offiaaa if the House did jus tice, not to his gallant Friend, but to truth and its own character, it would grant the pres e nt m oti on . Hi s Honour able and Gallant Friend had distinguished himself by al most romantic attachment to his profession. It was ob served by foreigners that he had led them on to battle and to victory; that he had clahned and been rewarded by honours among themselves, but had been neglected in his own country. His situation was not like that of many unfortunate officers of inferior rank,, whose loss might be equally flagrant, but not so prominent as that of his Gallant Friend. He stood before the country with 29 years of service in his favour; and he (Mr. B.) believed one of his offences was the having attended the funeral. On his conscience he believed another of his offences was the having prevented the shedding of human blood. Yes, on his conscience, he believed that his Majesty's Ministers wished for a military execution - on that day. Of this he was convinced by the conduct which had been displayed towards Sir &Baker ; and he believed, from the tone which was observed by those who were called the upper cl asses , th a t an opportunity was desired to punish the people. His Hon. and Gallant Friend had sustained a robbery of his property ; and was it to be endured that a Minister was to stand at the elbow of the King, blacken the character of a valuable military Officer, and advise - his dismis sal without conviction, nay, without accusation ? When the Duke of York was arraigned at the Bar of that House for mis conduct, as Commander in Chief, he begged, in his letter to the Speaker, that Ile might not be condemned without a trial, and then it was that no less a person than the late Mr. Per ceval declared, that no British subject ought to he punished either in property or in character without being furnished with an account in writing of the charge against him, and without being heard in his defence.--(Hear, hear, hear !) His Honourable and Gallant Friend had not only not been heard in his defence ; he had never been charged with any crime, and had been dismissed in defiance of every principle of decency and justice. He thanked God that the people of England were not like his Majesty's Ministers. The people had stepped forward to succour the oppressed and gallant Member; and even the supporters of Ministers had said, " Only wait until Parliament meets, and see what case will be made out by Ministers."—Had any case been made out at all ? Ile strongly believed there was not; and he thought lie should be unworthy - of' the character of an English Gentleman if he did not support the motion. Tbe Marquis of LONDONDERRY assured the House he did not rise to refute the charges of the Hon. Mesiber who spolie last, who had charged Ministers with a desire to have a military execution, and to plunder the Hon. Member who had brought forward the present motion. It was not impro bable that private friendship, aided by the natural warmth of his disposition, had induced the Hon. Member (Mr. Ben net) to bring forward eharges which of themselves required no serious attention. 'The subject, however, which was ins. raediately before the House was of a nature too grave for it to be trifled with; and in addressing hiniself.to that subject, lie would say at once that he knew of no other barrier to the . - :nand of the army; for the army was necessary to protect the liberties of the people.—(Lood cheers from the Opposition.)-- He e!infessed lie was somewhat surprised at the cheers of the Hon. Members, for unless his ears deceived him, he had only 3 nights ago beard from the other side of the House a case for• Law.--J Loud and continued cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—Then indeed the cry was " Give us troops but no law." Indeed a Noble Baron, when discussing that subject in the other House had said—he begged pardon, he meant there was a Nobleman who, in another place, had had a perfect by drophobia fur troups.--(A laugh.)--To return, however, to die case of the Hon. Member. His Noble Friend had not pre:: tended to make a counter-statement. He had.only said, that upon the Hon. Member's own shoving, he had been guilty of great indiscretion. Nothing could be more' calculated to estrange the soldiers from their duty than the havingtheir Oa: racters run down, and their feelings wounded, by officers not on duty. The Hon. Member, on the occasion in question, though not in uniform, had the marks of service in his bosom, He wore a star, and be was generally known to be Sir Robert Wilson, an officer of rank in the army. Wliat could he more. likely to encourage the infamous and disgraceful conduct of the people ?—(Cheers from the Opposition.)—To encourage those factious spirits who degraded the Queen while living, and could not be satisfied without attempting to promote their views by her death. '11:e plan for obstructing the procession was perfectly systematic ; fur entrenchments had been cut in the road-way which it was to pass; and under these circum stances it was that the Honourable Member, arrayed in the distinctive marks of his profession, appeared among the crowd, and held a language which was calculated to call down upon the troops the indignation of the populace. The Honourable Member had said, that he saw no stones thrown at the soldiers. Where then were his eyes ? Forty of the soldiers who left the barracks in perfect health went to the hospital in the evening, in consequence of the hurts they received He wished it, however; to he understood,. that he did not blame the Honourable Member fur attending the funeral, as he had thought proper to do so. Had he left the procession when he understood that the people had been committing outrage, no one could have taken exception to his conduct. . He protested against the notion that Parlia ment ought to interfere in any case like the present. Such Hon. Members as thought, otherwise might return to the times of 1731, when a Bill was brought in t• regulate or qua lify the exercise of the prerogative with respect to military officers, but which had been scouted almost on its first intro duction. He begged, likewise, to protest against its being thought that Ministers had entered into any counter state ment. Erroneous notions in this respect had a tendency in these perilous times to encourage that factious spirit which had displayed itself in acts of outrage on that day. When on such an occasion an ()Geer put liiiuself forward as the Hon. Member had done, ali subordination was at an end ; and if he (the Marquis) were soldier, he would not continue ip the service of that State which did not protect him against such interlopers.—(Hear, hear !)—These were the grounds upon which he should oppose the motion, after again disclaiming all personal feelings . towards the Hon. Member. Mr. N. CALVERT, Sir R. WasoN, and the Marquis of Lori- DONDERRY, mutually explained. Mr. LAMBTON explained. He had said that ttn..Officer could no more be deprived of his commission without trial, than a Freeholder of his property without laws. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that his vote upon the question before the House would have no reference to the motives ‘Ofigh actuated his Majeity% Ministers to advise the Crown •as they had upon this ocresion ft appeared to him that the lliineee bad but, one choice in,a thing of this'naturee which was between tbe prerogative in question being left its the hands of the Executive teethe Crown,. without.anyionntroul, or being liable tp appeal to the House of Commons, in order to review the, decisions of the Crown in the exercise of it.— (Hear.)—The latter he thought to be full of, extreme date, gers, especially as regarded its consequences upon military discipline. Itt, the first place, such:a course would :tend to being the leading Offifers of the Army and that House into dangerous contact. Fumy all knew the consequences'-of the fatal error, in a former period of nor history, of bringing the Officers, of the Army and the Committees of. the , Housteof Conimons into communication. It teas, therefore, because he thought a most un a d v i se d ac t h a d b een committed, which he felt the House was not empowered to go into, that he could not support this niotiou. For such was the nature of the act, that if She Papers were laid on the table, the House must inquire into the subject matter of them. The principle went : to render the Army independent of the Crown, ant de pendent upon that House, or rather upon any party it might he able to command, in it—a principle which it was obvious involved many dangers.--(Hear.) Mr. HUME said that he should not feel he had done justice to the Gallant Officer, if he Aid not testify to the correctness and fairness of his statement. He could do so with the more confidence mile happened to be with his Hon. Friend during almost the whole time. The statement now made he could aver to be correct. Before he proceeded any further,however, be wished to call the attention of the House to the speech of the Noble Marquis, which was of a most extraordinary nature. Instead of answering the statement of the Gallant Officer, the Noble Marquis bad introduced - ail irrelevant subject—the sub ject of the Queen, which Ministers ought tube the last .per sons in the'country to allude to. He hhd insisted On the pre rogative exerted in the present instance, hut. Mr. Justice Blackstone seemed to have imbibed other notions of prero gative, when he defined it to be a discretionary power to act for the public good, in cases where the laws are silent. The Noble Marquis next referred to certain regulations of his Ma jesty, but the first thing to he done was to refer to the law itself, and inquire whether those regulations conformed to its principles and enactments? He had asked whether the House would have the Army, as in former times, independent ue them? The: answer was, nu ; we will coutroul them by the Mutiny Act. It was provided in a clause of that Act, that no military officer should be dismissed without a trial' by his peers, and that the regulations for such trial should not he contrary to this law. The Noble Marquis had said that the Gallant Officer had no right to complain, as there were many instances in which a similar course had been pursued. This was so nutch the worse, and the sooner su c h .a p rac ti ce was put an end to th e better. His Gallant Friend had been ac cused of interfering with the soldiers, but his object was to put an end to the effusion of human blood. He had asked whether the House weeld abandonehe people to their fate ? but it was plain that Sir R. Wilson had interfered- to save them, and .the-mercy of the Noble Marquis was shewn by dismissing bins for so d•ting. He had also talked of an un doubted prerogative; but the prerogative was not undoubt ed, for he could !trove that it was not consistent with the Mutiny Act, from which he bad already quioted. The Noble Marquis had sneeringlyasked them, whether they would regu late their proceedings by the principles of the Old Bailey? It was Ilse first time that be had heard a Minister of this country sidicule the proceedings of our criminal Courts. The speech of the Noble Martinis accused him of addressing the people in order to excite them, but his purpose was quite of atet tier deem iption: He did 'advise them to desist, and nut to throw stones at the. men on duty. The more the matter was inquired into the snore it would be found that lie had done his duty on that day, in a manner in which few could have performed it. Having been with Sir Robert Wilson at the time that the firings commenced, and hearing cries of murder ! he had said to his Gallant Friend—" For sod's sake, Sir Robert, let its not go on."—(Laughter from the Mi nisterial Benchrs.)—lt was not difficult to anticipate what cheers would follow that declaration in the present spirit of the House. The Noble Marquis had described the conduct of the people as being a part of the spirit of faction excited by the proceedings against the. Queen, If so, he would ask, who were the persons that bits, awakened this faction? The Ministers had dune it, by adopting one of the foulest proceed ings that ever disgraced Parliament, and ought to be the last Men to complain of faction. He hoped the time would come when those Ministers would meet their desert. One of the good consequences of Parliamentary Reform would be to place them at the Bar of that House—(laughter;) —Gentlemen might laugh, but many strange things bad happened before now in a strange way... The language of Ministers, before Par liament had assembled, was,—" Wait until Parliament, sits ; we have:a ease, and will produce it then." Where was the case now ? With revect to Manchester they pretended to have a case; but having seen that all blown .up, they were afraid to venture nn the production of one in the present in stance. If the House of us... Unions refused to afford protec tion to art individual under such circumstances as these, it was high time for the country t o open its eyes to its situation. Nothing could prove more clearly the necessity of Parliamen tary Reform than such a refis sa l. Mr. TWISS Riittl ed -the House that it was not his inten tion to detain them by fullowirig the Hon. Member who:had jest sat down in that vast variety of topics which he had drawn into the discussion with such inestimable eloquence. Nor did hieintend to meddle evith the case itself, because he felt with the Hon. Member fur Durham (Mr. Lambton), that in interfering with that, he should depart from the straight for Ward course of stealing with the question before the House. The Hon. Members opposite seemed to be all agreed that the case. was one which ought either to have been sent to a Court Martial, or have been submitt e d t o th a t H ouse. I t was on this proposition that he desired to say a few words, with a view to spew ift what way such a suggestion, coming from his side of .the House, woul d have been met by the s ame H on . Meueliees with whom it Originated. If his Majesty's Ministers, instead of meeting • the : cas.e. manfully as they had done, by the exercise of that power they, possessed, hail brought for ward a proposal thaesuch a matter Afield he referred to the cognizance of a Court Martial, it would have been said, and with truth, that they - were afraid to advise the exercise of the prerogative.--(Hear, hear!)-11 would bare been said, that they wish, d to take an indirect means of accom plishiug their übject without the odium of it; and that fur this purpose they selected a body so constituted as to he un der complete subjection to their will--thus substituting for a responsible an irresponsible power.—(Hear!)—His Majesty's Ministers, however, not having done this, time thing was slew sects in,adiffeirnt light ; seed the. act was arraigned - as uncon stitutional, and as depriving the individual of the security of martial law. He did, not mean. to say-that military Officers might not be competent to meet a question of this nature; , but at the seem time it certainly was one,upon which it was almost impossible for Military Officers in the employment of the Crowe to be free from bias. It was plain that there must be meiiy objections to entrusting the important power of dis missing Officers from the service to a tribunal, which, though not free from Ministerial influence, was free from its respon sibility. A Minister, however, might be responsible, though not. accountable. Incases of money, the Minister was both respOntible for its use, as well as accountable for its ap plication; but he was not accountable for the administration of a prerogative.—(Hear, hear !) Sir FRANCIS BURDE.TT thought the doctrines laid down by the Noble Lord so extraordinary, thet he could not help making a few observations upon them. He thought, unless the House .were prepared to abandon all rontroul over the exercise of the prerogative of the • Crown, unless they had deterroined not to Attend to the just. expectations of the . people, they could not negative the present tnetion. - -(Hear.) When they beard the Noble Lod, state that the Crown should possess an uncontrollable power over the army, who, in his opinion, should •be equally protected' with the rest of the ' community, then, indeed, might they see the danger of stand ing armies; for that engine, dangerous at all times, would be most . dangerous when under the influence' of Ministerial ca price. It was that standing army that enabled the Noble Lord to insult the country ; for -he was surp r i se d t o see t h e Noble Lord generally jocose on subjects that made every other man serious and sad, and indulging in unbecoming mirth,when the heart of every other man was filled with grief. He thought that the taking away the lives of 'Englishmen under any circumstances, by an army paid by them to protect• them against foreign enemies, was calculated to awaken a feeling of any thing rather than merriment.. But it the principle of the Noble Lord were to he acted upon, all mili tary men should be excluded from that House ;: for no men - -..— should be allowed to remelt' in the degrading sit u ati on t o About ele ven o' c l oc k on — Priday - eiglila man named-Reeve, which the doctrine of the Noble Marquis would subject them. who is engineer at Messrs.. Brenchley ay.d Wise's paper-mil:, The Noble Martinis had quoted an authority, entitled, no in this town, in filling a saucepan from the mill e head„ over,, doubt, to considerable . weight, the opinionof Lord Erskine, reached himself and fell into the water, which at 'this place is to prove that officers in the army had no redress in Courts of several feet deep; he sunk to the bottom twice, and On Justice. If that were so,, it stecame more imperiously the his again coming up he caught bold ofpart Oa poplar tree Whiehe.. duty of the House to protect them. Bet that which his Gal- lay floating on the surface of the water ; to this he continued ; to lint Friend wished ,more than any reparation, what indeed cling and call aloud for help. His lamentable cries were heard his character in the eyes of the country rendered unneces. eomedistance Gm and a party of gentlemen who were spendi ng nary was, that no man should say that on th a t d a y h e did t h a t I the evening at a friend's house in King-street, qn hearing the which did nut. become a gallant o ffi cer nod : an hon es t Esi g e. same, hastenedwith the greatestalacritytothespot,anit fortunate ' lishman.—(Cheers.)—And was it to be borne that a character ly arrived in time to save the poor fellow, who, e , :braus,ted with. the most unblemished, a life without a stain, should. be thus straggling and hallooing,. had just committed Iris soul to God, subject to suspicion ? It was unnecessary to the character of and was about to sink to rise tiO na - i.e. What the, old man, his Hop., Friend to seek for. istqwier, he had abundance of who is. 67 years of age, Was taken out he was s 4 beniimbed, .. proof in the opinions of the entire nati o n'— having ,been in the water upwards of . ten minutes:, . that he : " Utdis in re non (Whist te s ti s es t; nun necessarius." had almost enti re ly l os t th e use o f hi s li m b s .. I n thi s • s t a t e he ;:... —(Hear, hear !)—When the mutiny act was again before the was. conveyed home, and medical assistance procured,. -but • House he should submit a preposition to remove officers in nearly• two hours elapsed before the blood could be. gg,t , the army from the degradin g s it ua ti on i n which Noble. itito circulation and h e was thought Out of danger .'' He Is now, of Lord . would place them. The exerciseprerogative in this w e are 'h a ppy t o sta t e, i n a f a i r way of recovery.s(Maidstone case was the roost extraordinary that ever was beard uf. The Journal ; Feb. 12.) • King of Prussia could not dismiss an officer without a, court, martial, and Buonitparte, when he was master of 1131(s:1'4.P: if , ropean could not exercis e sit odjonior delestaWa • power as that which the Ministers esf'England exervseci 'to the'petsotr of the Sovereign. But the whole political IVe• of the Nitble Lord was identifi.al with innovations on the Constitution. After having destroyed the liberties ulltis, coo Ntry, Le was trying his hand upon this, and would 'eventually succeed, backed by corrupt majorities in jhat , House, unless a timely , c h ec k were put to las 'prcieettal-; ings, The' Noble L or d h a d a ll u d e d to martial kW, and thought fit to charge Gentlemen on that side of the House with a wish to support it ; but it was not martial law they . , hiked fcir to preserve Ireland, it was ,a strang military free.„ instead of that InsUrrectinn-Act, or rather the Curfew-Act s which, in conjunction with the other odious measure. /de stroyed the lifkrtiei of that unfortunate country. He , called for a military force, and he would intrust it, not .1 , 1 the Noble Lord, but 10 the Noble Marquis, who was a true friend to Ireland. He had an opportunity, when in Ireland. to visit the estate of the Noble Marquis, and although that estate had now gone out of the family, the poor peoplo Were filled with the most endearing recollections of that NoblelMarquis,:and that was in perfect accordance with the whole course of his political life. And,, for these ,re.usittoiss' lie would the rather intrust the Noble Marquis with these eta traordinary military powers. With respect to the questiori before the House, it was bnpussible 7 for any man that slid not place, blind confidence in Ministers to reject the motion.— But, if they valued elseir character with the country, and if that House was to he any thing more than a mere registris estthe rates of the Minister, or a machine for e x t rac ti ng motley from the pockets of the people, they would support the i tair and just proposition of Isis Gallant Friend. • Sir ROBERT WILSON shortly replied. With regard to what had fallen front the Noble Lord opposite (Loril,Pa tue,r 7 , • stone) be must say, that he klt convinced he had pastroted : a toile upon this occasiiin which was the reverse of hi:s• vale sentiments. The Noble Marquis had fallen• - error in sapposing that he bad declared That rat stones,Were thrown front the people. But few were thrown after he came tip ; hot he did not mean to say that the 'soldiers had it 's bleu previously assailed. He had also stated, as. a matter of charge thirt be wore a star on his Irreast mr.tbat day. Ile had d one so, as a mark of reapect,graieful Otro, feelings, bec ause it' was a star w orn by t) )father sad 'Aro; .•. titer of her late Majesty, who lad exeressed herself titestsed• with his attention in weariOg' it in, her pre vas e. Hr mats ; • a'rald the decision of the House would not be in tayouraitAria. mot•oh, but be would call their attention to the facts charged against him. Vrst, he had removed a waggon at Kensiaglon. In doing so he hail 'assisted the kihg's soldiers,. to. whom it, belongs:it. Secoadlv, he had interfered with the' military aL Cumberland Gate. He did so to check them from doing what. they were 'riot authorised by civil authority in doing, aod,as- such acted as their best friend. However the matter might end that night, he should not cease his efforts to obtain re- - dress, and he would coniin e . t.e siigina'ise thos e w h o s h oo l d . continue to withhold it as lawless and vindictive oppressui (Cries of " Giuestion.") Mr. BUM fGHAM said, that as far As his testimony could he of use to his gallant lit iend, he was willing to state that what fell under his observ.,tion aurplv.eliofirmed the state- • meat he bad made to the House. He had passed through Kensington on his way to Braiidenlairgh Ilito.S;!, an . hour. after the Gallant G enera l, and lie showd .peak nositivelY : to the fact, th at th ere was riot then the slightest appearinice.of • preparation to obstruct the passage in that pal t which in the , course of that morning became a scene of much confusion. • Dr. LUSHINGTON cuiroborated the statement whiell'his • gallant Friend had made. He hail endeavooreil to dicini rte . • him from going iota the crowd at Cumber latid•gate, lint he said he thought the soldiers were in disorder, and he would try what he could do to restore matters. Ile was perfectli cool and collected during the whole time. • Mr. ELLfSE, having been appealed to , alto rose-us corro- . borate the statement Of the Gallant Mover, made with regard . to hitu. He had never quitted him but fora short period at .... Canterbury, till five ()clock the night preceding it,e 14tIa. • August, so that lie had no time for concerting platys. Colonel CAVENDISH 'said, that the ,Ilonourahle Mem- her for Ditrhaut (Mr. Lambton) having.,•in the con Fat' of the debate, called the regbuent whidi he had the honour to coin. : mand by the name of Murderers, he rose to express his.srtr•: • prise that any Honourable Member could be found to ~,a k a • use of such language on such an occasion.—jiear, bear,), He did not think they deierced it, especially: 4s., theprily foams dation the Hon. Member could hav e f o r i was the evid e nc e of a set of individuals who were ready to perjure themset vet by swearing to any individual that might he pointed out us From the .fay in irhirlr th(' the matter, he , i alluded to upon the foundati o n o f a Coroner's ver&ct, the fact that two men h a d b een kill e d ; sit wiles, the io..b ( i u; : ,, Y;i i s .u . c d . Mr. LAMBToN he lead in,d, the ,issertion connected with fired at themselves, the soldiers most have keeled them. that expla"nation, Ire must say that he still stood to the 'state, went Ile had made. Lord UXBRIDGE begged to corroborate the statement of. the Hon. and Gallant Member oppositelime: Cnvendi•h„, as to the evidence at the Coroner's Inquest. That evidcoc., was not to be helieved.—(Hear, bear! from the Opposition The reason why he stated that was, because he Lnew that there were a number of persons ready to go . nw iu.l body avti swear that he (Lord Uxbridge) was the intlivi,nl that shot one of the men, he being: %t the time in question 2!. , 0 miles from the city of London.-- (Cheets from the nttist , ri;r: benches.) After a few words front I % ..r. -ALrEHT, the House dividt For the motion Against it ,.... 199 Majority -102 The House then adjourned at fhill-past Eleven. LAW INTELLIGENCE. COURT OF KING'S BENCH, FEB. 13. SITTINGS AFTER TERN. This day Lord Chief Justice Annorr held the first Sitting after Hilary Term, and tried a few common jury cauS,:s of nu general interest. THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY V. RUSSELL. This action, brought by the noble Plaintiff, stood for trial; but being a Special Jury, it was ordered to stand, with the con sent of Counsel, lower upon the Paper. - HALTON AND CO. V. OXBERRY. This was an action brought by the plaintiffs, who are tailor; ; against the defendant, a comedian, to recover a sum of 91. 16! , . being the balance of a bill delivered for 431. 18s. Aperson in the plaintiffs' employment proved . that ..Mr. Hal. ton had, previous to entering into partnership with the other plaintiffs, in 1817, worked for Mr. flixberry, and that If r. th berry-had, after the commencement of the partnership, ptomi,s_ ed to pay Mr. Flalton 81., being the balance of the previous a:- count due to N 1 r. . . A person named Nunn proVel the delivery of a bill for 431: - 18s. to the defendant, and the receipt of 41. on account. The plaintiffs also admitted the receipt of 301. by two bills of ex change. The defence set up was, that in addition to these two bills and 41., a bill of exchange for 101. 10s.. was 'paid by the defendant, and also that he had done printing work for the plaintiffs to the . amount of 21. 10s. The defendant alto disputed the pri:ys charged by the plaintiffs ; one of which was a sum of 61. 1 ls,Eti, for a frock coat, with velvet collar and silk linings; but eten admitting all the charges to be fair, he contended that the plain., tiffs were indebted to him in a balance of 31. 2s. The bills of exchange, the receipt for 41. by Nunn, were put in, and the doing of the printing proved by a printer in the de fendant's employment; who also,m cross-examination, Said that Mr. Chappell was in partnership at the time with. the,defeAlant. Mr. PLATT, - in reply,' fbr the plaanti%, denied that .the charges were unreasonable, and submitted that it ~ vas apparent, upon the face of the bill for 101. 10s., that Mr. Balton had drawn it for work done before the partnership, as it was drawn not like tlr, other bills—" Pay to Halton and 0o." but " Pay to Halton:" The CmEr JuSTICE, in summing up Feld, the Jury could not take into consideration the charge 'for the printing, in . con sequence of Mt. Oxbcrry being then a partner only in the com, cern at whieli the work had been done. It_ waS•for the Jury .to., consider whether the char - !•eS weir reasonUble, and also whether the bill Ice 101: 10s. had been given in payment of the account due to :Ur. Helton before the partnership: Verdict foe the plaintiffs. Damages 91, 18e.—Costs 49%