The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

-ot the 25,000,0001. being necessary to be paid off, which was 'a question for the consideration of Parliament. The next was the new mode of taking the assents by requiring the dis sents, which' was different from Mr. Pelham's method. The third was with respect to the time proposed for giving the dis sents, and also the manner in which it was proposed to pay off those who dissented. There was one point more—Did the Noble Lord (Londonderry) believe what he himself told the House, with regard to the prosperity of the country ? If he did, he would gain by delay—(Hear, hear !) ; but if the Noble 'Lord knew the contrary was the case, he, in that cave, had some reason to hurry the Bill. Mr. LUSH INGTON said no one regretted more than he the absence of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the e:xchequer, as he could adequately reply to all the points of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney.), On one point, indeed, he felt it easy to satisfy the Right Hon. Gentleman. With re spect to the paying off of 55,000,0001., it would be seen, by the 51.1 orthe late King, that 238,000,0001. of the public debt were then declared to be satisfied and discharged. A reference to that Act would be enough to meet that point. He would main tain that there was the greatest similarity in the present plan to the plan of Mr. Pelham, and he would read the history of that transaction, •as recorded in Smollet's History of England. The Honourable Gentleman then read the passage, which may -be found in the 7th chapter of Smollett's Continuation. The question was, whether the terms proposed were consistent with justice and public faith ? The holders had an option whether they would take 1051. in the new stock for each 1001. in the old, or take 100 J. in money, according as it might be settled by Par liament. Ample time was given by the Bill to those who were absent from the country. He would submit every clause to the Committee, where they might receive the fullest discussion. Mr. ELLICE said that the statement of the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Lushington) was no answer to the objection of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney.) He would not go into the law of the case. 'When, in 1813, the House resolved that '238,000,0001. of the National Debt was redeemed, they did that in contemplation of an alteration in the Sinking Fund, but it had no reference to the Act of 1797. It ap peared to him a most extraordinary proposition to maintain that 25,000,0001. stood redeemed ; whereas, in 1822, the 4 and 5 per Cents. were double what they had been in 1797. kle thought the nresent very different from I,lr. Pelham's plan, nor did he think the situation of the country now like what it was at that time. Mr. Pelham gavethem three month's time. The Right Hon Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, gave only sixteen days, and gave as his reason that if more time were given, it would only give rooni for speculation. He (Mr. Ellice) would suppose a person residing in Scotland to hold some of that stock; it wasnecessary he should make up his mind some days before the expiration of the limited period.— Suppose some news arrived then from Russia or Turkey, or any other part of the-Continent, on the last day, a person resid -ing in London, who need not givein his dissent before, would have the advantage. It was the Bill, then, and the want of time in it, that gave room for speculation. Mr. Pelham gave ample time to consider, when there could be little difficulty in coming to a determination. Many difficulties existed at present, and sufficient time ought to be given. He wished to know what provision was made in case two or more, who held stock jointly, differed, and that one assented but the other dissented. Were they to go into Chancery ? But he did not see the public would gain any thing by the plan. On account of the bonus of 5 per cent., there would be no more than a saviog of 1,000,0001. in eight years.—(Hear, hear!)—He thought more would be gained by a different mode of reducing the Debt. If, in imitation of Mr. Pelham, 43 per cent. were given for a limited period, and then 4 per cent. without any bonus, but with more time to consider, something might be gained. But why were they in such haste? The first would not be until January, 1823. 'lf more time were given, it would be more creditable to the country and more just towards the holders. With respect to the benefit to be derived from the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, it was like his plans of a Sink lag Fund—he borrowed with one h a nd to lend with the other. 'Mr. GRENFELL said, that he must always differ with his Right Honourable Friend with much reluctance, acid with great . diffidence. With respect to the objection that had been thrown out—first, as to the legality of the proposed plan ' • and secondly, as to the point of good faith, on both questions he was equally clear. With respect to the clause in the Act of Parliament that . had been quoted, the strong impression on his mind was, that 25 millions, of the public debt having been cancelled, removed en tirely the difficulty which had been stated, and that in point of law, and in point of good faith, the Legislature was competent to .carry the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman into effect. was glad to see in his place an Hon. Gentleman whose opi men on the law, he hoped, would be given to the House. A great deal had been said with respect to the plan of Mr. Pelham ; it appeared to him that the House had nothing to do with Mr. Pel ham's plan. The question for the Housewas, whether consistent -with law, and with good faith towards the public creditor, the ;Legislature was competent to entertain the present measure .?3. He thought it was, he approved of the measure generally, both in principle and detail. There was indeed one point which was open to objection; he thought some little time ought to be given acre than was intended, for creditors to express their assent or :.dissent to the measure. His Honourable,Fnend had said, that at a future period, public credit might be advanced still higher, . and a better-bargain might be made than the present. The fact might be so, but for his part he- was willing to avail himself of the advantages which the present state of the country afforded, •.vithout-waiting for future times, or future events. If, at a fu cure period, greater advantages should present themselves, be would not regret his support of the plan now proposed. Ope rations of a similar nature might be proposed—Wear, hear ! : from Lord Londonderry),—and the Government and the coun - try would, have the opportunity of availing themselves of such advantages as the state of the country might hold out. Ar. TIERNEY explained. He made no objection to the principle of the measure,; he objected to the mode of carrying it into effect. Mr. HUSKISSON said, he thought there could be little doubt .indeed that the plan of his Right Honourable Friend was con -sistent with the principles of public faith, and of law. With re spect to the right of paying off the Five per Cents., the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) alluded to a clause in the - 37th of the King, which stated that the Five per Cents. weee not e to be paid off until a sum of 25 millions of the National Debt should be redeemed. The words of the Act, he was willing to say, would admit of various constructions ; but one construction, .• he thought, could not, with any appearance of reason, be put upon the words of that Act. It could not be contended that the condition would not be'fulfilled until the debt,as it stood in the year 1797, should be reduced by 25 millions. It might per • haps be argued, that if the Government borrowed with one hand • to pay off debt with another, that, though debt might be no minally reducial, the:condition would not be fulfilled, be -cause In fact the country, whilst it was paying off debt in one way, would be increasing debt in another. But that door - was open to the opposers of the measure. The country had bona fide paid Off 25 millions of debt by the redemption of the -Land Tax. 'Unless, therefore, Gentlemen .were to contend eetliat the country at the present day was bound to reduce the Licht by 25 millions below what it was in 1792, when it . amounted to 230, millions ; or that any bona tide reduction of -.-the debt did not amount to a redemption, he thought that it was plain that the condition, as stated in the Act of Par liament, had been fulfilled ; and there could be no doubt but that Parliament had a right to deal with the Five per Cents. in the manner proposed. The Hon, Gentleman (thell. 'ember for ' Coventry) objected to the mode proposed. He (Mr. II.) re gretted that his- Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Ex chequer was unavoidably absent, because, if in his place, he' would be much better able• to explain the details of his plan than he (Mr. H.) could possibly be. The Hon. Member ad vanced what appeared to him an extraordinary proposition.— He stated, that in the course of eight years the saving to the country would amount but to a million. Undoubtedly, if they looked but to the nominal amount of the debt, the Honourable Gentleman might entertain that view of the question ; but looking to the burthen which was actually upon the coun try, the first effect of the measure would be to diminish that burthen by a sum of '1,200,0001.- forthwith. If in 1792 Mr. Pitt had reduced the Five per Cents., which he (Mr. Hus kisson) lamented he did not do—if he had reduced the Four per Cents. to thirty-two, at compound interest, the whole of the debt might have been annihilated at the present day. If the Goveinment did not avail itself of the state of the public credit to reduce any part of the public debt, they might forego every opportunity, and leave the country burthened with a heavy rate of interest. With respect ,to what had been said, that sufficient time had not been given to creditors to express their disst, the House would bear in Mind that the public, since the Resolution of his !tight Hob. Friend had been moved in that House in the latter end of Feb., had full notice of them easure, and every person had been put in possession of the plan ; and, after all, what.had , the creditor to decide upon ? .The proposition of his Right Hon. Friend was this—either to pay off the creditor his full demand, or to give him 1051. in the four per cents ; in fact, whether he • should take his 1001. or accept of what was better ? That was the question' for the public creditor, and he really did not think one . so difficult to determine.' The shortness of the time was objected 1 to• 16 days were allowed —or in point of fact, between 30 and 40 days, to the creditor to determine whether he would receive 1001 or something better. Had there been more time, given, he (Mr. H.) was of opinion that it would have led to unfair • speculations. The 'Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) ' had desired the House to wait for the result of the negociations between Russia and 'Turkey. To that he would answer, that if the country were not to pay off a part of its debt, leaving a • high rate of interest, until the-state of Europe should be en tirely settled—until all doubts should be' cleared away—they would lose every chance of redeeming their debt--they would, let every opportunity pass aw a y. Every public event was :likely to affect, more or less the state of public credit ; what ,:•security • had they against the further proceedings of .Parlia- ment itself? The Honourable Member for Hull had given notice that night of a motion to reduce the tax on Candles; that proposition, if entertained, would have its effect—the state of foreign politics--the general situation of' Europe—the - state of Ireland—the state of England, all must affect every day the state of public credit. With respect to unfairness, he thought it would be very unfair to give parties three or four months to express their dissent to certain terms, whilst the party who offer those terms were bound in the first instance.— His Right Honourable Friend had said that Mr. Pelham said nothing as to the time of paying off the debt; s he thought that the proof of sincerity and good faith marked the plan of his Right Honourable Friend; the parties surely had no thing to complain of, the parties advanced their money to the State on the express understanding that at a certain period that debt was likely to be paid off. The terms that were offered was the amount of their debt in money, or a security, which was more advantageous. Unless Government were pre pared to offer these terms, the Resolution of his Hon. Friend could not have been proposed to that House, rior books could not have been opened at the Bank. There was, be contended, no departure from the spirit of the Act of Parliament—there was no breach of faith—the Legislature only was doing that which on every principle they had a right to do, for the benefit of the country ; they proposed a plan which would have the effect of diminishing the public burthens, without leaving the creditor any just cause of complaint. Mr. WILLIAMS said, he was one of those who viewed this measure as contrary to law, of bad policy, and bad also in the mode of execution. In discussing the first of these objections, the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had altogether omitted to advert to the Act which created the stock in ques tion. That Act was the 24th of thi, late King, and not the 37th, which had been exclusively referred to by all who had, taken part in the discussion. That Act said in terms, that this stock should not be redeemalle till 25 millions of the public debt had been paid off and redeemed. Mr. Pitt was a party to that Bill, and his words at the time sheaved, and there could be no doubt, that the Act did contemplate the reduction of twenty-fine millions below what the politic debt then was. Ile sheaved from the Attorney-General, what was the law of the case, such being the words. lint would any lawyer contend that this condition had been com plied with, because they bad borrowed with one hand and redeemed with another -? Next lie had a doubt as to the mode in which the-operation was effected. It was said from the other side that an option had • been given. For himself, he begged to state, that he had not one farthing in the Five per Cents., and therefore had no . personal interest in what he said. But when he heard it stated by the Right Honour able Gentleman who had just sat down, that the terms were well understood, he must say that he (Mr. Williams) dio not at that moment.understand what the terms were, nor (lid he believe the Chancellor of the -Exchequer could .himself tell . them. The real terms must depend upon when they paid the 1001. sterling to th e di ssen ti en t. T hey might pay them in a month, or in twenty years hence ; hut. the value of the pro perty of those who dissented could only be estimated by a knowledge of the period of their being paid off. The state of Europe—the RUSSiall and Turkish war—the state of France, and other like circumstances, Must influence his opinion, and he could never come to any determination till he knew when he was likely to get his 1001. sterling if he dissented. But not only were the parties unable to understand the terms, but they were not permitted to do with their property what the Act, on the faith of which they invested it, entitled them to. They must blindly subscribe to the Chancellor of the Exche quer's terms. He referred, as a proof of this, to •two papvrs of dissent which he held in his hand, which had been reject ed by the Bank. The paper was according to the printed form delivered •at the Bank; but in place of the words at the end—" and I do desire to be paid off in money," it ran, " I do not desire to he paid off in money, hut require to be paid aecording to the terms of the 24th George.lll," This 'was rejected by the Cashier of the Bank, and thus it was proved that the Act in question was a perfect nullity, and that the holder of this stock Must expose himself to other conditions imposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The other dis. sent, .which had been similarly rejected, was worded in the . same way, in the joint names of four persons. This might he called keeping faith with the public creditor, but he con sidered it in a very different light, and thought it was a course of proceeding altogether adverse•from the interests of the na tion. He regarded the Sinking Fund, .which bad been brought in aid of the measure, as.a delusion which had im posed the falsehood on the country for theiast forty years• that Government had been borrowing money on terms advan tageous to the nation. In the face of such an assertion, would it he believed that of 250.000,0001. of debt created by loans in the late war, nut one shilling had r found its way to the public coffers ? •Wben they looked at it in this point of view 1 hey saw it in its true colours. He considered a real Sinking Fund as that which relieved the country-front a portion of the re sponsibility of providing for the ...eflarge of the debt. The Hon. Member for Coventry was right, when he said that only one million of debt would be-saved by this measure in seven years. There was another way of transferring one stock into, another, which would create a saving year after yeltr, and place them in a few years in a much better situation than they now were. •If the Chancellor of the Exchequer'were to fund his Navy Bills in a new stuck at Five per Cent., irre deemable 'under twenty-fire years, he would have that stuck at 1001. worth front 1201. •to 1251. market' price, without any loss on either side. -If they took 155 millions stock at 1201. , the hundred, it would hear an interest of 7,750,0001. This would reduce the nominal capital to 125,500,0001. - being a saving of 29,500,0001 1 with the interest of that sum. Nothing but such a reduction of debt would 'save the country fromH impending evils. The plans of the Chancellor of the Ex-1 ' chequer tie entirely disapproved of. He was not in the habit of using strong language, but he must say, that he used every art and trick 'to raise the price of the funds. He now •contemplated raising the Three per Cents, to 90, and then he would reduce the Four per Cents. But did he consider the loss to the country by this operation ? With tht - Sinking, Fund, five millions would buy up 5,240,0001. the stock being at 701., but at 901. it would require upwards of six millions to buy up the same quan tity. of stock, entailing a loss to the nation of nearly 1,500,0001. If t h e Eight Honourable Gentleman were to con Pert the three per cents. into a five per cent, stock, irre deemable under 28 years, it •would have the power of dimi nishing the capital of the debts to the amount of .200,000,0001. He was so fully satisfied that the present system of the Sink ing Fund was a fatal delusion, that he most anxiously desired to see the end of it. The capital of the debt never would be lowered but increased by it, because it involved the necessity of raising the price of fimds. He would not on the present occasion diverge into these topics, but he hoped they would soon have a Committee, in which the whole system might be fully canvassed. The ATTORNEY GENERAL rose in consequence of bar ing been called upon to giVe his opinion. He would first direct himself to the upihion of - the Honourable Gentle man who spoke last, and a hose opinion was different from all the others that had been given. He said that to admit of the reduction of the five per cent. stock, it was necessary that twenty-five millions of debt should be reduced below the amount of debt which existed at the time of pass ing the Act of the 24th •Geo. 111. The Hon. Member was to bear in mind that a number of Acts on the subject had been passed, viz, the 24th, 35th, 26th. 37th, and others, regu lating the paying off of this stock. But it was always un derstood that the 37th George Illi. , re-enacted the 24th.'on which the Honourable Member had laid so much stress. — Whatever might have been the object in 1786, with regard to diminishing the public debt twenty-five millions, be believed it would not be contended that any such pro spect was contemplated in 1794, 1795, 1796, or 1797. when, however, it might lie very consistent with probability to suppose that such amount of the public debt might be re duced at a future period. Now as to the argument founded on the assertion that the money which had redeemed any of the debt was borrowed with one hand and paid with the other, he would quote the Act of the fifty-third of the late King, which, after reciting the Debt, declared, that " 238,000,0001. have actually been purchased, or transferred to the Commis sioners fur the Redemption of the National Debt." This, therefisre, was equal to the whole of the debt in 1786, and the Act went on to say, " And that amount of debt shall be deemed satisfied, and discharged, and be struck off the books." Thus was the 25 millions not only redeemed in this way, but it was also done by the sale of the Land Tax. He had there fore no hesitation in saying, that it was his opinion that his Majesty's Government were competent to payoff the Five per Cent. Stock.—(Hear !) • 11Ir. WILLIAMS explained. Mr. W. SMITH haol no doubt that the twenty-five millions required to be paid off by At of Parliament bad been paid off by the Redemption of the Land Tax, But it was per fectly absurd to suppose that the mode of reducing the debt by raising money on loan for that purpose, was sufficient to justify the present measure. He agreed with the Hon. Mem ber who had just spoken (Mr. Williams). that raising the funds might facilitate the financial operations, but they re tarded the reduction of the National Debt, Mr. MONCK said, that if the amount of the dissentient Stork was very great, it might be five years before it was pal] off, which would make such a difference in value betssixt the first and last as would be at least equal to five per cent.. He thought the Frerieh mode was much more fair, where the dis sentients were paid off as they were drawn out by chance, in the manner of the lottery. Thus every man was equal with the others, He perfectly agreed with the Hun. Member for Weymouth, that the Sitiking Fund was a delusion, and that it would be better to offer a bonus to the holder of the three per cent. stock to take five per cent. stock, in _place of the present measure. The House then resolved itself into a Committee, and the Bill was read para►craph by paragraph. Mr. 1.1/SHINGTON explained that it was intended to allow the Accountants General of the Conrt of Chancery and Exchequ , r to the 30th June, to make their dissent to any monies for which they were trustees. Mr. CALCRAFT did not see the ground upon which these parties were to be exempted in preference to all others. The ATTORNEY7GENERAI, stated that the Accountant- General had many persons to consult, and the delay might be considera bl e. Mr. CALCRAFT said he did not object to the indulgence, but contended that it should be extended to all other parties. Mr. COURTENAY said, the Accountant-General was not like an ordinary trustee. He had so many persons to con sult, and the Court through him would attend to the wishes of the suitors. Mr. R. SMITH thought it would be better to vest the power of extending the time for dissent in the Lord Chan cellor, upon application from the suitors. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY asked, how the Bill would pro vide in the case of a Trustee who was called upon to decide without the power of communicating •with the person for whom he acted: The ATTORNEY-GENERA said, it must be entirely discretionary. Dr. LUSUINGTON wished to know how it would be in case of several Trustees. If the majority wished to dissent, were they nut to have the pOwer of doing so?, The AT"FOIINEY-GENERAT. said, it roost be in that case as in all others where a change of property was involved—the parties most be unaninious. Dr. LUSHINGTON contended, that the case was different here, as the dissentients would be those declaring against a change of property. Ali. I.IIHI . NGTON said, there would be an explanatory Bill. Mr. WETHERELL thought the two Bills ought to proceed pani passu, and it would he worth while to consider whether they had not better defer going further into the Report, and wait till Monday or Tuesday next, for the first reading of the second Bill, in order that the two Bills might go through the Committee, together. He thought the trustees and executors acting fairly, fur those whose interests were confided to them must he protected. If these bad been left liable for any loss to which the annuitant might be exposed, some specific pro vision ought to he made for their security. With respect to a very large class, the owners of small quantities of stock, it had been provided they might transfer with a new stamp. This provision ought to be made for cases where the minority or the majority of trustees could not be taken. He hoped this measure would be carried into effect .with equal advan tage to the Government and the country. In that which was now done it was material to consider what would be the effect of the future measure in a new war, should it be neces sary to raise a loan by creating a new five per cent. stock. It would be injurious to the country if any thing were decided on, that would depreciate such stock. Many additional pro visions -vere necessary ; and as it was admitted that soothes Bill must be brought in to comprehend these, he thought it might be desirable that this should not pass till the other measure Mlle before the House. Mr. - LUSHINGTON - offered a few Words which were inau dible in the Gallery. Mr. DENMAN said, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had on a former night observed, with respect to the Trustees, that if they acted to. the injury of those they represented, they must in certain cases make good the loss out of their own pockets. The present measure exposed then to ; evils of so alarming a' description that he thought the House ought not to go a step further without providing. for the protection of persons thus circumstanced. He also thought the measure defective with respect to assenting and non-assenting Trustees. Mr..LUSHINGTON thought there was some mistake, with respect to what had fallen from the Chancellor -of the Ex chequer on a former evening. He had no hesitation in say-- ing that Trustees acting beau fide for the benefits of the an unitants must be protected. Mr. MA BE RLEY hoped no improperhaste or injustice would be imputed to Parliament for their conduct on this occa sion. In passing a measure so' beneficial to the country, it would be disgraceful to take any unfair advantage of those most immediately affected by it. Mr. T. WILSON believed what the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had said on a former. night was this parties acted to their own wrong, they most take the consequences." He was glad the subject then under consideratism had been pressed on rhe consideration of Ministers better than be could have pressed it on them. Their attention would, be trusted, he given to it, and that alarm set at rest which must other wise be created. He wished not to thwart the measure, but to see it carried into operation in the must beneficial manner. The clause was then agreed to. The clause respecting New per Cents. was amended by the addition of words declaring the dividends should be paid free from all taxes, charges, and imposi•ions, the same as those of the Navy Fire per Cents. had been. - On-the clause requiring those who dissented from the plan to signify their dissent between the 4th and the pith of March, ‘lr. DENMAN felt it to he his duty to move an amend ment, that the peilod should be extended to the 30th March. Mr. MARRYATI' thought it desirable the measure should pass speedily, in order as much as possible to prevent stock-jobbing. At present his name stood to a quantity of stock in which he had no interest. He had been placed in this situation by the trustee of a minor, who was at present in a very distant country. He wished to know. in such a case if he were bound to assent or dissent bythe IGth March ) Some regulation seemed necessary• to meet such cases. Sir JOHN NEWPORT believed it to be impossible for the House to act so as to prevent stock jobbing on this subject. He thought the other Bill ought to be brought in before this passed, that those concerned might have time to exercise their judgment on the alternative submitted to them.— What objection could there be to allow time to bring the two Bills before the House together, so as to let the public knOw exactly what was to be done. Considering this to be a beneficial measure, he thought nothing could he more preju dicial to it than tho attempt now made to huiry it through the House. Mr. LUSHINGTON agreed that time ought to he afforded to the parties to form their judgment; hut this, he thought, had already been done. More time coutd not he necessary to enable the holders of Five per Cents. to decide whether they would prefer 1051. in the Four per Cents, or be paid 'lool. sterling. For the cases which had been been mentioned provision would be made. Mr. SCARLET f could not agree that sufficient time had been afforded fairly to enable the holders of Five per cent. stock to determine what it was for their interest to do. The time would probably have elapsed within , which they must decide, before this Bill passed. Now he thought, as they could not tell how far the Four per cent, stock might be de preciated by the present measnre, and the other that was to follow it, till both had paßsed, they could not judge of the choice offered to them. He should, therefore, support the amendment, as he would any proposition that went to extend the lime allowed to the parties for considering still further than the SOt h March. Mr. CALCIUM' objected to the Bill being passed noW, as it called on the holders of the Fire per cents. to accede to cer tain terms before it was exactly known what these terms were. In some cases; this Bill must come upon those whose interests it-affected as an ex post facto law. In the l case on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer bottomed the present measure, three months had been allowed to dissent from it. . . - Mr. DENMAN th o u g ht th e p er i o d f u ll s h or t which - he had named, and contended that it would be a breach of public faith to -refuse further time for consideration. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY understood his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury had consented to enlarge the provisions to - the Bill, so as - to relieve the Trustees from that degree of responsibility which had been supposed to attach to them. The question now was, whether or not the time for dissenting from the plan should be extended beyond the 16th of March. He could not go along with the Learned Gentleman in thinking that till the Bill had passed, the parties could not understand the terms sub mitted to them. The Bill' could teach them little which they had not learned froM the resolutions passed on the 2711 i •of February. They had merely to decide whether they would take 1051. in Four per Cent. Stock, or receive 1001. sterling ; whether they would receive one hundred pounds, or take that which, according to the present price, was better. But a Right Honourable Gentleman bad argued, that they could not decide what it Would be for their interest to do till the political horizon had.cleared up, and the question of peace or war in another part of Europe decided. He should he glad to know when that time was likely to arrive at which no question of importance was likely to be in agitation which must in some degree affect she situation of this great coun try? Were they to decline carrying into effect a measure like the preient till the prospects of the country were so clear, that none of the parties would run ally risk of mistaking the course which would be most conducive to their interest ? Were the measure delayed till the result of the present dif ferences and negociations which had been alluded to should be known, it was to be expected that by that time new events would arise on which the parties would be as much in doubt as they were at present. The question on which they had to decide was very simple. It was merely whether the: would receive their 1001. or something better.. It was intended to make further provisions for the security of trustees. Great inconvenience would result from delaying to pass this Rill, as It would occasion much stock-jobbing, which it was de sirable to prevent. Mr. I'lEtNEY.saitl that the Noble Marquis bad ulna mis taken him, if he thought he had stated that they ought to wait till the political horizon of Europe was quite clear. What he had said was, that it appeared from a passage in his Majesty's Speech that negociations were now pending which might terminate in war. The question, from the advanced season, must soon be decided, and he thought it unfair to cab on the holders of the Five per Cents. to come to their deci sion under such circumstances at the present moment. But then it was said that every thing intended by Government was made known by the Resolutions of the 27th of February, as it could he by the Bill. He denied this. Resolutions were often altered or abandoned. Trusting to Resolutions, he would suppose the situation in which he might lately ha , e been placed. After the Resolutions of the 'Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of the Malt Duty had passed, lie might have said, '' 0! the duty is to be taken off, and I must sell my stock at any price." He might then have sold at a loss, and a few days after down came the Chancellor of the Exchequer with another Resolution respecting the stock in hand, and up went the price of barley again. Mr. MARRYATT pointed out the inconveniences that would attend postponing the passing of the Bill, and con tended, that if it would he fair to give the annuitants further time for consideration, the Government ought to be allowed to reconsider the subject also, and thus nossihly by the 30th, they might be justified in saying, we will only vire 1001. now, instead of the 1051. originally intended to be given. One party ought not to be hound to bargain, and not the oilier. Mr. BEItNAL thought it important to know how those who might dissent wet e to be paid. Nothing had been made known on this subject sufficiently to know what was to, be done in such a case. He thought mote distinct information ought to be given. The Committee then divided— For the Amendment Against it - - . - - 143 Majority -94 When stranger.; were re-admitted to the gallery. they fount; the Committee discussing the clause relative to the mode of expressing dissent. Mr. ELLICE contended that the simple expression of dis sent was enough, without being followed, as it was its the piloted FORMULA of the Bank, with a demand for being paid. Mr. LUSHINGTON did not see the difference between the present mode and the one proposed. The object was to as certain substantially if the party dissented. The form was of little consequence. Mr. WILLIAMS, adverting again to the concluding clause of the Bank formula, contended that it Was an improper ad dition to the dissent of the party: and vet he assured the House that the letters of dissentients would be refused if the clause were struck out. Mr. LUS HINGTON repeated, that the object was to ascer tain dissent, and that the form was of minor importance. After a conversation, in which Mr. PEAnsE, Dr. LUSHING TON, Mr. COURTENAY, Mr. WILLIAMS, Mr. ELLICE, and Mr. HUSEISRON participated, the tatter stating that the con cluding demand for; payment was immaterial, as it rested with Parliament to fix the time and the mode of payment, the clause was agreed to. When the clause for paying off dissentients was read, Mr. WILLIAMS proposed that, instead of" such time, &c. as Par liament might direct," the term of 12 months should be fixed. This amendment was negatived without a division. On the clause for paying off dissentients in the numerical order of their names being read, Mr. ROBERT SMITH objected to such a condition of pay ment, as being inconsistent with th e l aw w hi c h p ro tected the stockholder in the possession of his property. The principle involved in every stock act was,•that there should be no prio % rity or preference to any stockholder over another. Mr. WETHERELL contended, that the principle of equa lity was carried too far if it was argued that no one. should be paid before another, while, no unjust partiality was shewn. Mr. ELLICE objected to this condition of the Bill more than to any other. Alr. TIERNEY thought that each dissentient should be paid in proportion, if all could not he paid at once, and ad verted to Mr. - Pelliam's Act, as establishing this principle. After some further observations from the Marquis of Lon donderry, Mr: Tierney, Mr. Ellice, and• Mr. Williams, the re solution was agreed to. The CHAIRMAN then proposed, that the clause which pro hibited the transfer of b percent. stock from the Irish to the English fonds should stand part of the Bill: Sir .I• NEWPORT thought it appeared very singular to de clare that no transfer of stock should be made after a day which had already passed. He was sure that if such a clause had been proposed in an Irish House of Commons, it would have formed a proud source of great. merriment on this side 'of the Channel. Dr. LUSHINGTON, in order to make the intention of the clause evident, proposed as an amendment, that it should de clare, " That all transfers of 5 per cent, stock front the Irish to the English funds wade after the 3Gth of February; should be null and void." After a desultory conversation, in which Mr. Wetherell, Mr. It. Smith, and the Attorney-General bore a part, the amendment was agreed to. • Several other clauses were also agreed•to,with some merely verbal amendments. Mr. GRENFELL objected to the clause for granting remu neration to the Bank for managing the transfers under the Bill ; and, after a few remarks from Mr. Pearse, Mr. Fluskis son, Mr. Manning, and Mr. Lushington, the clause was with drawn. The next clause, for making it capital to forge certificates nutlet!, in the Bill, was also withdrawn, after a few words from Mr. R. Smith and Dr. Lushington. The other clauses were then agreed to, and the House har ing resumed, the report was brought up, and the whole of the resolutions of the Committee were agreed to. Mr. MARTIN asked when the Bill was to be read a third time? Mr. LITSHINGTON replied, that he intended to have it read a third time to-morrow. Mr. MARTIN said, that a Bill of such importance ought not to be hurried through in this manner,wit bout giving time to Members to see the clauses which had been agreed to in the Committee. After a few words fron► Mr. Hume and another MeMber, _ Mr. LUSIIINCiTON gave way, and consented that the Bill, RS amended, should be printed and read a third time on Monday. COUNTRY BANK NOTES. On the motion of Mr. ELLICE, a return was ordered of the number of country hank-notes stamped from the 10th of October, 1820, to the 10th of October, !SQL On the motion of Dr. Lusnusavros, there was ordered to be laid before the House an account of all slims of money ad vanced by this country, whether by loan or subsidy, to foreign powers, from the yer 1792 to the present year, distinguisb ing the amount to each state, and the amount in each year. Also an account of all sums of money becoming flue to this country from foreign states in each year, from 1792 to the present time, with the amount paid on such accounts it) each year. . . . On the motion of Lord STANLEY, leave was Oen to bring in a Bill to prevent frauds by creditors granting secret war rants of attorney to confess judgment. On the motion of Sir G. HILL, there was ordered to be laid before the House an account of the quantity of butter ex ported from Ireland to foreign countries, from January, 1821, to January, 1822; also the quantity of butter imported into Great Britain and Ireland frum foreign countries in the same time, distinguishing the quantity imported from. Holland. On the motion that the other Orders of the Day be dis posed of, A conversation took place between Mr. I)};;MAN, the So- LICITOR-GENERAL, and Mr. Boma, on the Land-tax Com missioners' Names Bill, as it affected the town of Nut. t ingham. The Ordnance Estimates were postponed to Monday week. Sir K. WILSON gave notice, that an Honourable Friend of his would oppose some of the clauses of the Annual Mu tiny Bill, the second reading of which was fixed for Monday. The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'Clock till Monday. LIST OF THE MINORITY WHO VOTED TO EXTEND THE TIME FOR ENTERING THEIR DISSENTS TO THE TRANSFER OF THEIR STOCK, FROM THE 16TH TO THE 30TH MARCH, TO GIVE TIME TO THE HOLDERS TO DECIDE : Althorp, Visct. Grenfell, P. - Palmer, C. F. Bennet, Hon. H. G. Hutchinson, Hon. Robinson, Sir Geo. Bernal, R. C: H. ' Ridley, Sir M. W. Birch, H. Hobhouse, J. C. Robarts, Colonel Boughey, Sir J. F. Ilume, J. Robertson, A. Barrett, S. M. James, W. Robarts, A. W. Beaumont, T. P. Lambton, J. G. Stanley, Lord Bright, Henry Lushington, Dr. Smith, Hon. R. Calcraft, John Martin, J. Smith, Robt. Coffin, Sir I. Monck, J. B. Scarlett, J. Concannon, Lucius Maule, Hon. W. Tierney, Rt. Hn.G. Crespigny, Sir i lV. Moberly, J. Tynte, C. K. Campbell, Hon. N. Macdonald, Jas. Wood, Alderman Davies, Colonel Newman, R. W. Williams, Wm. Dennison, J. Newport, Rt. Hon. Wilson, Sir R. Ellice, Ed, Sir John Wyvill, M. Fergusson, SirR.C. O'Callaghan, Col. TRLLER-T. Denman. Dr. GEEGORY wag yesterday unanimously elected to be Physician to the Small-pox and Vaccination flosdital at St. Fancras. EAST INDIA HOUSE, March 6, mi. THE COURT of DIRECTORS of the UNITED COMPANY of MERCHANTS of ENG LAND TRADING to the EAST INDIES, do heleby give• Notice, That they will put up to sale at their House in Leadenhall street, on Tuesday, the 19th March (instant), at Ten o'Clock. in the Forenoon precisely, prompt the 20th September next, Two Hundred and One Pipes of the Company's MADEIRA %VINE, the-whole of which was some years in the East In dies, and that the same may be tast e d p rev i ous ly to t h e Side,. and Catalogues had upon application to Mr. William Evans, at his Office in the Company' s Warehouses, New-street, Bi shopsgate-street, between the hours of Nine and Three daily, Sundays excepted. The said Court also give Notice, that they will put to Sale 'on Friday, the 22d March (instant), at Ten "Clock in the Forenoon precisely, prompt the 20th September following, Four Hundred and Thirty-two Indian Carpets, of various sizes and colours, Catalogues'of which may be obtained, and the Carpets inspected, upon application to Messrs. Dickin son and Johnson, the Company's Bengal Warehouse-keepers, at their Office, in New-street, Bishopsgate-street, between the Hours of Eight and Two daily, Sundays excepted. JOSEPH DART, Secretary. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Veneris, 8° die Martii, 1812. CHURCH— Great Yarmouth—Petition for Bill reported, Re port to lie on the table. AGRICULTURAL DisTnEss—Petitions from that part of the Hundred of Amounderness called the Fylde—to lie on the table, and to be printed. IRON COFFINS Bills ordered. ROADS—Bridgwater I.l4cLosunEsr-Cockayne's (Essex)—Read a third time and passed. Tansley (Derby)—Presented, and read a first time. HAWKERS AND PEDLARS LICENCES—Petition of Trades men and others of Macclesfield, to extend the same to per sons selling goods in the Market—to lie on the table, and to be printed. JURIES (SCOTLAND) BILL—" To alter the mode of choos ing Juries to serve on Criminal Trials in Scotland," pre sented, and read a first time, to be read a second time on Friday 29th March, and to be printed. EDINBURGH POLICE BILL, (N ol.)—Petitions of Inhabitants of Edinburgh, and of Incorporations of Wrights, Masons, and other Trades, against, to li e on t h e table. Petition of Inhabitant Bouseholders of the Eight Southern Districts of Edinburgh ; of Advocates, Clerks, and Members of the Col lege of Justice ; of Advocates of the Court of Session ; and of the Incorporation of Tailors in Edinburgh, against; re ferred to;the Committee on the'Bill; Counsel ordered. (No. 2)—Petition of Merchants of Edinburgh, in favour of—to lie on the table. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS—That they have agreed to Transfer of Aids Bill ; Exchequer Bills (410,000,000) Bill ; Sugar, Tobacco, &c. Duties Bill ; Arms Importation (Ire land) Bill ; Arms Seizure Indemnity (Ireland) Bill, without amendment. DRAINAGE—Bray, &c. Amendment Bill—Presented, and read first time. Pay ordered ; Committee to report on No tices. Durham—read a third time and passed. BRISTOL Poon BlLL—Order for Bill discharged, and an other Bill ordered, presented, and read a first time. ORDERS of the DAY, for MONDAY. 1. Superannuation Act—Committee thereupon. 2. Smugglers Commitments Bill—Second Reading. 3. Navy rive per Cents. Bill—Third Reading. 4. Land Tax CoMmissioners Names Bill—Committee. 5. Receivers General Bill—Second Reading. • G. Ways and Means—Committee. 7. Supply—Committee. 8. Aliens and Denizens Bill—Committee. 9. Silk Manufactures Acts—Report thereupon. 10. Marine Mutiny Bill—Committee. 11. Supply—Report. 12. Indemnity Bill—Committee. 13. Mutiny Bill—Second Reading. NOTICES OF MOTIONS, for MONDAY. 1. Mr. Ward—Ordnance Estimates. (In Committee of Sup. P 1 Y•) 2. Air. Blake,—Bill to protect from waste Dwelling HOUSES and other Buildings. 3. Sir John Newport,—To appoint Call of the House on the 24th April, to take into consideration the state oflreland. TO CORRESPONDENTS. JOANNEN SIS, from Cambridge, certainly on Monday. The COLONIES, and J. B. on the . State of Ireland, also on Monday. *** For Mr. PINSENT'S LETTER, see the Fourth Page.' PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK. Bank Stock shut 3 per Cent. Red. shut 3 per Cent. Cons. 7B , :a 4 per Cent. 5 per Cent. Navy Ann. 102 iii India Bonds .525. 475. Excheq. Billy 1 4 pr. Cons. for Account 79i 79 791,- PRICE OF IRISH Bank Stock 248 Gov. Deb. 3 per cent. ... 89 Stock, 31 per cent. Gov. Deb. 4 per cent 99t Gov. Deb. 5 per cent 4Bt - Stock, 5 per cent 4g Exchange on Lond, STOCK, MARCH 6. 1 Grand Canal Loan,l4 p.ct. 50 I Ditto 6 per cent. 77 Ditto Stock — Royal Canal Stock Wide-street Cert. 6 per ct — Do. Deb. with Gov. Sec — Lon, March 6, 84 j. HIGH WATER AT LONDW Morning, 0 minutes after 5. 1 J BRIDGE TO-MORROW- Evening, 24 minutes after 5- THE 8 UN. SOLEM QUIS DICERE FALSUM .AUDEAT, LONDON, SATURDAY, MARCH 9, 1822. llainburgh Papers to the 2d instant have come to hand. They inform us that ad vices from Mol davia, dated the 14th of February, state, that 'C the Turkish troops on the frontier have, for GC some time past, avoided every thing that " might be in the smallest degree offensive to " Russia. Only Cossacks are stationed on the ‘C Pruth ; and the corps of the second army, cc under Count DE WITTGENSTEIN, have sus " pended their march, from wide! , it is inferred " that war will not take place." We are still of opinion, from the nature of the public and private information that has reached us, that a Russian and Turkish war is inevitable. The suspension of the march of Count de WITT GENSTEIN'S army may have been rendered neces sary by other causes than the one above, stated ; and we are inclined to consider it of a temporary nature, and to ascribe it to the necessity of wait ing for supplies previously to penetrating into the Ottoman territory, which, in that direction, has been laid waste by the Turks, and is incapable of furnishing any supplies to an invading army. The Paris. Journals of Wednesday do not con tain much interesting intelligence. The dis turbances in the French capital still continue, but they do not appear to \ have any political ob ject, and seem to be occasioned by the public indignation against the Missionaries, who perse vere in their religious exercises every night. The A