The Sun. — London, England, 1801-03-19 00:00:00

for three months, with Fire Millions of .stoney in his possession unappropriated. He desired A.o ask, whether a similar it , stance could he pro ' tloced in the annals of the British Hisblry ?-=—On the Motion for Peace,• the majority .was . 4j, S apd in the minoritythere was only If:itself. to - cgunt. Gentlemen might laugh, but he considered it a's. not very decent t they were sitting there, voting Taxei, LOans, and Pensions, and he thought there ought to be a fuller attendance, for it was one of the main. props of the Constitution.. He hoped his Hon. Friend-would take the sense of the House upon this subje4, and he expressed his. intention of again bringing it under theconsider ation of the House. Mr. DENT said a few words, ,we believe in favour of the Motion, but we did not hear him distindly. The House - then divided ; —for. the Motion 19 —against it 151—majority 132. When we were re_admitted into the Gallery, we found Mr. C. DUNDAS . on his legs, moving for a leave to bring in Bill for extending the provi sions of the 13th of his preSent Majesty, for the bnprovement of Waste .Lands, and for the en - couragement of the Culture of Potatoes, &c. Sir W. PuLTENE Y seconded the. Motion. Leave was given to bring in the Bill, and Mr. C. DUNDAS and Sir W. PuLTENEY Were ordered to prepare and bring in the same. ORDERS OF. THE DAV. Lord CAViEREAGH rose to 'move, " That the House should resolve itself into a Committee on the Irish Duty Bill. • Lord W. RUSSELL said, that 'the Order for going into a Committee on the Bill for granting Exemptions from the Poor Rates, iri certain cases, stoodfirst in the Order Book. Lord. CA S'TLEREAGH said, the business was of the greatest importance, and would not admit Of any delay, because the Martial Law Bill; and some of the Irish Duties, which it was i)e,.:essary - to continue, would expire on the 2s:h of March. • • Lord W. RUSSELL said, he had already given way upon a former .occasion ; - -the Bill pressed ' very much in point of time, and the HOuse had - already been twice counted out upon it. The SOLICITOR GENERAL did not cem ceive that public business of the highest im portance was to 'give way, because.another Mo tion accidentally stood before it on the Order Book. • The SPEAKER said, the usual way was to read the Orders of the Day as they stood in the Book. Mr. GREY conceived that the preference ought to be given to his Noble Friend : his Motion bad been put off before, because it 'did not stand rst in the Order Book. The Noble Lord op-- bosite to him coujd be put to no inconvenience y having his business postponed tilt after that of his Noble Friend, because it was of such im portance that it .wouhl ensure attendance—and there would be full time, after the Debate upon the Poor.rate Exemption Bill, to proceed upon the ()their business. • . The SOLICITOR GENERAL Vila,, that the Noble Lord (CAs.rr.ia EACH) was in possession of the House, and had a right to be heard first. Lord fr. RUSSEL moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the Poor Rate Exemption Bill. Mr, RYDER moved, that the order should be postponed until the other orders were disposed of. Mr. WIIITPRE.4D opposed the -motion, because from what he had already seen, he was sure that if the Nobe Lord's (CASTLEREACH) motion came on first, there would not remain time enough to discuss his Noble Friend's Bill. Mr. 3. H. TOOKE said, that as one of the Bills was for taking away lives, and the other for preserving them, he hoped they would consider the Bill for preserving mens lives first. ['Here there was a cry of order.] He conceived he was not out of order, because the Martial Law Bill' . 'might eventually take away lives, whereas the other Bill was to preserve them. Colonel MARTIN contended strongly, .that tthe House Ought- first to consider the Martial_ • Law Bill, for it was of such importance, that the safety of Ireland.mightd,epelid upon it. He adwitted that the Poor Exemption Bill was also • one. of importance, and be was sorry, on. this • occasion, that , lid should be obliged to Note for ,postponing •it. However, for one, he pledged himself to attend, in coder to make a House, whenever it came on again. I . Mr. PIE RREPOINT,said, .as the other busi ness was the more likely to ensure attendance, he should vote for giving the preference to the Poor Rate Exemption Bill. Mr. GREY spoke in favour of the Motion of Lord,W.Russzu.., • • Lard DE 'BLAQUIERE was of opinion, that as the. Motion of the Noble Lord (Lord W. RV SSE LL) stood first in the Order Book, it could not be put off. The SPEAKER said, it was ustial to move to put off Orders of the Day, and the House might dispose of them .in any manner it thought proper. Mr. TIERNEY said, it was. usual for Gentle. men whose business stood first, to give way to public busines's ; hut he did not know an instance of an Order being put off against the consent of the Person who had moved it. He looked upon this as the first measure of the new Ministers ; and if it was aeted upon, the COilSeqUellCe would be., that they need never attend to tile discussion . of any business they did not like, for they had only to move to postpone it till after. all other public business. By concurring with the motion of his Noble Friend, the business of the Noble Lord on the other side of the House would not be delayed, because it might come on afterwards ; it - was of well iMportance ) •as to secure a suf., 4 j -Ileient attendance. Mr. BRig.;GE said, that the Noble Lord (CAsTkEttEAGH), was first in possession of the House, and in his opiniOn, hact th?refore a right to the preference, After a conversation, the House dig iued, For Lord Vi. Rt!St /I.'S Motion, 47 Aaaiust it , 100 • lajority, 53 , When• w were'reAdmitted, Lord CAST L. ERt AC ti ved, " That the House should re , oh'e itself into a Committee, to eon. sider of certain duties.in Ireland upon Sugar, &c." The HonSe resolved itself into the Committee, Mr. BE4GG-E in the Chair. LorclCAsrL eR EACH - proposed a Resolution for continuing- the duty, sOlich was agreed to, .and the House being resumed, the Report eras order ed to be received to-morrow. The House' resolved itself into a Committee, to consider -of cettain other Irish duties, Mr. BRAGGE in the Chair. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved a Resolution for continuing the said duties, which was agreed to, and the House being resumed, the Report was calm(' to be received to-morrow. EGYPT. Mr. 11 7 . DUNDAS said, that a Right Hon. Relation of his (Mr. Secretary DuNoAs) was prevented from attending the House to-morrow, (this day), and he wished to know whether an Hon. Gentleman who had given notice of a Mo tion respeeling Egypt, bad any objection to put it off for a short time. Mr. JONES said, he felt some reldiance in putting off his Motion; however, ,under the cir cumstance stated ,' he would consent to put it off, and he would to-morrow or the next day fix ano ther day for it. Lord CAsrI.ER EACH moved, " That the House should resoKe itself into a Comwittee on the Bill for suspending the Habeas. Corpus mi in Ire land." , The Bill went thrott3h the Committee, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILL. Lord CAATL E EACH moved, " That the House should .resolve itself into a Committee on the Irish "Martial Law . The House resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. BRAGGE in the Chair. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that with a view of rendering this Bill as unexceptionable as pos sible, he would move as an alteration, that the number Seven be requisite to constitute a Court Martial under this Mt.—This, he observed, was two - more' than was required in Naval Courts Martial. The SPEAKER entered into a short explana tion of the different Clauses of the Bill, and the effete of this proposed Amenlment. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR suggested the propriety of the House being resumed, for the sake of moving an Instrufflon to the CoMmittee. He moved therefore, that the Chairman leave the Chair, and report progress and ask leave to sit again. Which being agreed to, and the House resumed, Mr. RYDER moved, that it be an Instration to the Committee to have power to amend said by providing, Ann the said;Courts Martial shall' consist of osCets of the Line, and that no Sentence of Death sball'be primounced by 'a less number than two-thirds of said Court. Mr. GREY said, that his objeflion was funda mental against the principle of the Bill, as it tended to invest the Crown, in the person of the Lord Lieutenant, with a sort of despotic au thority ; but if it were the sense of the House that the' Bill do pass, he should think it his duty to render its provisions as palatable as possible. He approved of the principle of the Clause mov ed for by the Noble Lord, although he did not think that it went far enough, nor followed the provisions of the Mutiny Att. 'By that MI, he apprehended that in no part of our European Ter ritories were Courts:-Martial authorized to pro nounce sentence of death, if composed of less than Thirteen Members ; ,out of Europe, he be lieved the number was Five. As he did not think there could be any want of a sufficient number of Officers in the disturbed parts of Ireland to com pose Courts-Martial, conformable to the provi sions of the Mutiny MI, he should move an Amendment, that the number of Officers requisite for cocnposing Courts-Martial, _under this AEI, should not be less than Thirteen. And at the end of this Clause he would propose another Amendment, that no punishment, whether cor poral or death, should be inflicted but by the seifterite of such Courts-Martial. The reason, for proposing this Amendment Was, that during. the late Rcbellion in Ireland, corporal punish ments hid been frequently infliaed without the judgment of Courts-Martial. He did not mean to impute to the Noble Marquis (CottNwAL us) any improper use of. power entrusted to hiin. ; but he wished' this power to be founded upon known and constitutional principles, and to guard against its ever being used in a tyran nical mariner. Upon - the Question being, put upon' Lord CASTLERIAGM'S Motion, that the number Seven be necessary to constitute a Court Martial in -Ireland, . Air. YORKE acknowledged that nothing but a convietion of this general measure's being neces sary for the preservation 9f Ireland could autho rise it. He was persuaded that the provisions of this Bill, and the power given'by it to the Go. verment of Ireland, were necessary to the safety and preServation of that Country. He approyed of the number Seven, but must objea to so large a number as Thirteen being necessary to constitute Courts,Martial ; for in case of partial distur bances in Ireland, it would be found very difficult to coiled such a number of Officers to carry jus tice into prompt eNectition, and 'thus, the de fence and security of the Loyal SubjeEts of Ire land would be taken away. Nor did be see any 'sufficient reason why a greater number of Officers should be required under this Bill than was done by the Mutiny A. Mr. GREY explained—he did not apprehend there would be any inconvenience or difficulty in obtaining such a number of Officers as Thirteen to constitute a Court ; but at any rate, such a pos sible inconvenience ought not to be put in the balance when the security 'of the live, of any of His Majesty's Subjees was concerned. If it w'as intended to give to the Lord Lieutenant any power to punish offences indeperalmt of a Court Martial, it was mete, mockery to introduce such a Clause as that now proposed. Mr. YORKE stated the provisions of the Bill as to the power granted to the Lord Lieutenant. The SPEAKER also explained to the same el._ fee, that the Bill went to • give power to the Lord Lieutenant to institute Courts-Martial an particular Distries that might be disturbed, not withstanding that the Courts of Law in general were opened, and in this manner to try persons aeually secured and detained. Dr. LAWRENCE objeeted to the proposed number of Seven. He thought there would be no difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of Offi cers to constitute a Court-Martial composed of Thirteen, and that it would be even wrong to li mit the number of Officers to Thirteen. •• In no former period of our History, in the midst of the *greatest public distress, had any such .power been given to Government as was contained in the provisions of this Bill. He objeiled to any un usual power being granted to the Lord Lieute nant, merely because such power had not; hitherto been abused. To give legislative authority upon such ground would lead to despotism. ' He wish_ ed to propose an alteration to the Motion, to.this effee, " That the provisions of this A4l. by con formable to the present Mutiny Aa throughout s, Kingdom." .The ATTORNEY GENERAL expressed his surprize at the oppoThion• made to this Bill, which only demanded a continuation of the Ae which had beenpassed in the Parliament of Ire land, for the short space of three . months, and till rarther inquiry shoulttbe made into the actual situation of Ireland. With regard to the power invested in the Lord Lieutenant, was it unconsti tutional to appeal to the experienee.derived from the Charaaer of the person, to whom that power had been, granted, and to the prudent and cauti 'oils- use which he had made of it in a time of pecu liar difficulty and danger I There was no such analogy between the circumstances whiCh gave rise to this and to the Mutiny Bill, that there should be an exaet conformity between them: To draw off such a number of Officers as Thirteen to constitute a Court-Martial, in case of an exist , ing Rebellion in Ireland, would tend' to cripple the arm of Gover.omen; in the protceibn of the Country, in danger from a foreign foe, and from internal Enemies. An -Act with such a provision in it, would rather be in his opinion an Act} for the furtherance of yebellion, and to encourage the in surrdlion of the disaffdted. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Dotor LAW& EYCE) had alluded to some for Mer periods of our Histo ry; but for his own part he knew of none in whial the Country was exposed to such dan ger. from 'principles having been broached and spread, as tended to dissolve all the bonds of union befween Man and Man, gs well as be tween God and Man. To introduce such a ma terial alteration into this Bill, as to extend .the number of Officers necessary to constitute a Court_ Martial to Thirteen, would be such a change in the Aft which .had passed in the last Irish Par liament, as would, in his opinion, amount to a Breach of Faith with that Country, and convert it into an Aft for the furtherance of disaffetlion and rebellion; , . Air. GI EYexpressed his. snrprize at tile warmth with which the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman delivered his sentiments. There' had been no proof adduced, that within the last two tears any Juries in Ireland had been intimidated "from doing their duty, from fears of assasSi - - natiOn ; so far from it, that one Hon. Gentleman had stated as an argument fOr this measure of Mar tial Law, the ,pronenesS. of Juries to condemn ra ther than to acquit. He objeacd to the system of confidence in the Lord Lientenant, and thought it was the duty of Parliament to guard against the abuse of his power, and to limit the grant of it, by the system of stria nece s sity. But if . the subjea was to be debated, on the grOond of per, sonal confidence in the Lord Lieutenant, he must observe, from the Gazette of last night, that the power of the Marquis CORNWALLIS . in Ireland was at an end. What became then of the argu ment of experience ? For what possible experi ence could be had as to the Administration of Earl HARDWICKE ? From the suggestion of his Hon, and Learned Friend, which he approved of, ; the AMendment he 'should propose NWOulti be to this _effeel, to make the provisions of the Bill respeding the number of Officers requisite for constituting Courts Martial in. Ireland exatily conformable to the present Mutiny Aft through out the Kingdom. _ _ _ Mr. DAWSON:declared, that he rose not for the purpose of giving any opposition to His Ma jesty's Ministers, or of crippling the energies of Government. The principle of the •Bill he could not cordially approve of, nor from any lo ca l ac quaintance he had with Ireland; was he convinced of its necessity : at the same titne,from the state. ments which h*t been made by different Gentle men from other parts of that Country, he ac-, quiesccd in the measure, from the necessity of it which they had stated to exist. To render the Bill as palatable as may be, he approvNl of in creasing 'the number of Officers necessary for con stituting a Court Martial in Ireland, and to this, he wished to add an Amendment as to the quali fication of age. One reason tbr proposing the age to be at least twenty-one was, i:ot onlj , on account of the general propriety in cases of trial for life or death, but, also on account of national justice ; lest, owing to insufficient and incapable Judges, the guilty culprit should escape. General LOFTS - observed, that the Hon. Gentleman had professed a wish that the qualifi cation as to age should be twenty one, and likev wise that this Bill 'should be assimilated 'to the Mutiny Act; but he must remind the Hon. Gentl eman, that that MI all Owed of the age of Seven teen. He thought the number of Officers would be sufficiently large if fixed at Seven. Ireland at this time he considered as in great danger, and in his opinion it Was highly advisable that the present Bill should. pass. . : Mr. PRENCIt 1;ord te:,-ilmony to the_ good Administration of !Marquis Cc?Rxw'ALl.ls; Juel was persua(!ed that his lenity had saved Ireland: Lord De B.I..4QUIEPE expressed his-surprize to have heard - an lionourable. Gentleman state; that within the two last years there had been no instance of any Irish Juries being intimidated from doing their duty, when he could state in stances, during that time, of ten Jurors having been assastinated, and a Gentleman of veracity had told him, he could give hii o n 200 names of jurors-intimidated, or ill-treated. With respe& to the Courts-Martial,.such proofs had they given _ of lenity as well as justice, that Culprits had ex- presio a .sash, in various 'instances, to be tried by them in preference to Juries. After vindi. caring the proceedihgs of the Courts-Martial, his Lordship said he ,should oppose Mr. GREY'S ,Amendment. Mr► GREY, Lord de BLAQUIERE, and DG LAWRENCE severally explained. Mr. OGLE approved of the Bill. It was necessary to prevent the principles' of Rebellion from again prevailing in Ireland. He did not wonder that English Gentlemen objcned to the Bill ; so did the Gentlemen of Ireland, till im- perious necessity induced them to vote for it. He approved of the enlargementOf, the number from Three to Seven ; and vindicated the principles - and condua of the Officers wlio, had composed the Courts• Martial in Ireland. " I tell you," said Mr. OGLE, ‘.• take care . of a convulsion in a Ire land ; I tell you, such convulsion will shake the Empire to it;very foundation. What interest can the Gentlemen bf Ireland have in deceiving you We were strangers/ and . ye took us in- most stand or fall - together'. Ireland is rotor, : your a ff air. Sua res agitur; paries cam proximus ardet.f4 Mr: FRENGH and Mr. OGLE explained. Lord C ASTLE RE AGH said, that in limiting the number of Office'rs to Seven, he thought it.was extending it as far as was consistent with the public satety for in disturbed Counties a greater number of Officers could not be spared. The entire efficacy Of the measure depended upon the execution being prompt. But supposing that the Commanding Officer of such a County as Wickfow, when disturbed, found it necessary tci summon two or thr ee Courts Martial, and these consisting each pf Thirteen Officers, it was evi- dent that great inconvenience, and injury to the public safety would be the result, and -that it viould be necessary to send the guilty culpriti out of the . County, and prevent their being tried' where their crimes were committed. The ca s e of the Mutiny Aft did not apply to the presedi measure, founded upn the suabsition of Retrel: lion. The Soldier might be left under the gette.:, ral proN;ision of the Mutiny Aft, without sini3);c danger to the Country as in cases of when summary punishment became nec'essarf. Mr. DENNIS BROWN said, that this quelfr, tion was important not only to Ireland, but albs the whole Empire i • but as' it had been already so amply discussed, he did not know that he should have troubled the House to-night, if it had rut been for something:which had fallen from so Hoz4 Friend of his. He could not help observing, however, that the Debate had to.night gone to an unnecessary length ; for much of what had been said, had nothing to do with the Question- now before the Committee, which was only a (211tS. don, what number, it was proper to state, below which no Court:Nartial should be held, and that number was now proposed to be . Seven. Much of what had been said upon this subje& also, wag the result of Gentlemen's judging of things from What theihad felt in this Countr y ; but hee - begged leave to say, that without local knowledge, it Was impossible to judge corrc&ly upon this subjea. —The seeds of Rebellion were often hidden un- . .der a tranquil appearance of things, and whe n que i_ led for a time, it rose up again—it was an Hydra, which nothing but such a measure as this could possibly destroy. At one place which he could name ,in Ireland, and indeed it was in. the Coun ty in which he resided, 'the People appeared to h t , as quiet as they were in England on the Monday, and on the Saturday following there appeared to be 20,000 men ready to join the French. I farms they was a great meeting-of People assembled for thm purpose of lowerin g t h e ' r ents of' the farm occupied, and there was a meeting of Landlo r d s to take that .subjea into c o nsideration : they agreed to offer gentle conciliatory measure s , and -while agreeing on such conciliatory Measures, the insurgents and Incendiaries burnt their !lotuses; and after this, the Farmers,in great numbers, re.. fused, to as as Jurymen at the Courts of Justice, saying, 'that as - most of their property was move able, they should lose it all if they took any part against the Rebels. It had been argued upon this Bill, as if it were intended to make Martial Law generally superior to the Common LaW, and that. it had' been contended it should he so ; upon which he.could only observe, that no such thing had ever beenitaintained or thought •of by the . advocates for this measure. It was not Martial Law but Rebellion put down the Common Law in Ireland, and Martial restored the Common Law. was decidedly in favour of this _Bill. Colonel MARTIN was a friend to this Bill, not only as . it bad been approved of by my Lord CoastwAws, which was no slight'praise to it, but also' on account of the time_ in which it was introduced, arid which did great honour'to the Parties concerned in bringing it forward, as WOl • as to those who approved of it. He thought that the same mode of defe n ce to' the loyal I habitants cf Ireland; that had been -given to and exercised by Lord CO RN UAL LIS, 'Should be con. tinued .to his successor. He defended the, Speech deiiveled`tb.riight by the - ArroaN EY GENERAL, who, he said, had spoken with warmth and' ani. nation, but also in the same manner, as he . wished every man in that House, with zeal and sineerityi without PassioN Some Gentlemen thought that as this -measure was well used by my, 'Lord Co rc - stw ALCIs, and as he was . corning away from Ireland, there was an end of the, argument, upon the propriety of confiding in a prudent use being made "of this measure—in his opinion there st'a.s not an end of the argument, for although Lord COANWALLIS was eminent beyond dispute, for