The Sun. — London, England, 1822-04-26 00:00:00

• '..g..-rzty4 \C;11 . 1t i: : , • ------ - g. me om. SUN. even ct of Is of NUMBER 9257.] FRIDAY, APRIL 2G, 1822. PRICE SEVENPENCE. • OFFICE OF ORDNANCE, April 17, 1822. with their lot ; they formerly did not interfere with politics.— But now they saw that all propositions for retrenchment were scornfully rejected, and when they saw the distreis which sur rounded them, they united with the common voice in calling for Reforni. As there would shortly be another opportunity for him to deliver his sentiments upon this subject, he should reserve himself, and not detain the House further at present. THE PRINCIPAL OFFICERS of HIS MA.JESTY's ORDNANCE do hereby give Notice, that PROPOSAT S will be received at their Office in Pall Mall, on or before the 6th May next, from such Persons as maybe willing to purchase 600,00 a BRICKS, and 200,000 BATS, or any part thereof, wising front Tower 8.8. in Hollestey . Bay, which has been taken down, and the Bricks cleaned. :The Bricks are second Grey Stocks, and very sound, and are' favourably situated fot: shipping off the mouth of the . Liver Alder, in Suffolk. The Proposals are to specify the price per Thousand, to be -shipped at the expense of the Purchaser, and must be delt- . vet ed,.sealed up and indorsed, " Proposals for the purchase of Bricks;" but nu Prop l osal can be admitted after the 6th 'May next, at Twelve o'Chick at Noon, say, to full ;ay- Y as- ThePetition . was ordered to be . printed. NEWFOUNDLAND. riom id es the r oc at to Sir J. MACKINTOSH - seeing the Hon. Under Secretary for the Colonial Department in his place-, was desirous of put ting a question to him. He had upon a former occasion men tioned that he had received certain communications from some of the most respectable inhabitants of the island of Newfound land upon the subject of some defects which existed in their Houses of Legislature. He wished to know whether it • was the intention of Government to bring forward any measures for remedying these defects. it; r. IVILMOT could inform the lion. and Learned Mem ber that it had been the intention of the Government to have proposed measures for the purpose he had mentioned, during the present session. -But the Governor of the island had inti mated a wish to have some personal intercourse with Govern ment before such a step was taken, and that was the reason of the delay' which had occurred. He could assure the Hon. and Learned Member that the earliest opportunity would be taken for attending to`the gitbject. Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that after the explanation he had heard, he was content to leave the matter in the hands of Government', who were better able to manage it than any Mem ber could be, and because any thing coining from them stoo better chance of success with the House. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. hati tver- sins By Order of the Board, R. H. CREW, Sec. BRAMAH'S PATENT PORTABLE PENS. ASPURIOUS Imitation of these PENS hay.: mite recently been introduced for Public Sale, J. IIitAMAH and SONS, 124, PICCADILLY, the Manufac turers and Proprietor; of the Invention, acquaint its mime loos Patrons and the Public, that in future every Box or pack e t of their Genuine Pens will be stamped witlia fac si mile of the Signamt of the Ins clam - "JOSEPH BRA MAI-1," by which means the Counterfeit will be easily dis covered.—January 24, 1822. Sir W. LEMON presented a Petition from the County of Cornwall, complaining of Agricultural Distress.—Referred to the Committee. . Similar Petitions were presented from the eastern pan. of Sussex, and from Oxfordshire. Mr. HILL presented a Petition' from certain Noblemen, Gentry, Clergy, and others, of the County of Salop, praying generally for relief from existing distress.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. RANISDEN presented Petitions from Rotherham and three other places in Yorkshire, complaining of Agricultural Distress. VALUABLE SUGAR. PLANTATIONS in Mc:ISLAND of GRENADA. TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION, W. LEIFCHILD, by Order of the Assignees of Messrs. BOLDERO and Co. on TUESDAY, the 4th of JUNE, 1822 , at Twelve o'Clock, at the AUCTION MART, London, LL those TWO Valuable and Productive SUGAR ESTATES or PLANTATIONS, called TIVOLI and sT. JOHN'S, advantageously situate in the Parish of St. Andrew, in the Island of GRENADA, containing upwards of 700 Acres together with the Valuable Gangs of Slaves, 'P . M all the Live and Dead Stock thereon. Full Descriptive Particulars may be bad of Mr. Holes and 1 :1* George Gun Munro, in Grenada; at the Counting 'l4>use of the Assignee., *2, Lawrence Pountney-lane ; of Messrs. Lamb and Co. Solicitors, 26, Prince's-street, Bank England; at the Secretary's Office, Auction -Mart, Lon dmt and of W. Leifcltild, Land SUrveyor, &c. Enfield, Mid dlesex. Mr. MAUtE presented similar Petitions from the County of Norfolk. Similar,Petitions were presented from Radnor and from the Hupdreds of Wallington and other parts of the County of Devon. Mr. L. KECK presented a Petition from the county of cester praying for relief from agricultural distress. The peti tion was signed by the Lord Lieutenant and the High Sheriff' of the county, and by all intervening classes, down to the lowest peasant; and it deserved the particular attention of the House. D the ation rand Lisin- Sir T. LETHBRIDGE contended, that the distress com plained of was general all over the country, and that the House must, before long, take the subject into its most grave consi deration. - He had heard with surprise the other night what had fallen from the Hon. Member from Penryn, as to the dis tress being partial. If there were any owners of property who were not distressed, it was the fundholders. And he was by no means certain, if the distress of the landed interest were not at tended to,, that that property would be as secure as it had been. He implored the House to exert its power to avert the evils with, which the country was threatened, before it was too late. After a few observations from Mr. CuitwEx and Mr. L. KEcx, the petition, with seven others from the same County, was referred to the Agijcultural Committee. Lord NUGENT presented a petition from certain respect able Freeholders of Aylesbury, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and the state of the Representation.—Ordered to be printed. _ ; we ,dmit ents, udge n us, their NOTICE of SALE of the ASPEDEN ESTATE, mar BUN- TINGFORD, HERTS. TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION, By iV . LEIFCHILD, by Order of the Assignees of Messrs. BOLDEItO and CO. on WEDNESDAY, the 29th of MAY, 1825, at Twelve o'Clock, at the BELL INN, BUNTING;- FORD, in such Parts and Parcels as will he specified in the Printed Particulars, —(unless previously disposed of by ivate Contract, of which due Notice will he given 0 • HE LIEE ESTATE of MR. CHARLES BOLDF.RO, aged 64, of and in TWO Valuable and it;xtensive MANORS, a Capital MANSION-HOUSE and PARK, and several-FREEHOLD and . COPYHOLD LANDS, situate in the several Parishes of Aspedcn, Laystone, Yard, rry, and Cluthall, in the County of Herts, containing in the whole about 120 Q Acres of fine Meadow, Arable, Pasture, and Wobd Land. 'erred hat it f the ce to cord ming n the Le Bth Which !nt of adent W. Leifchild respectfully,inforint the Public, that he is fully authorised either to Sell or Let the whole or any part of the Property during the Life of Mr.,C. Boldero, by Private Contract. e in eding rtes to Particulars may be had at the Secretary's Office, Auction iLi"t, London ; Bell, Buntingforil ; Angel, Bury St. Ed ; Ram, Newmarket ; Sun, Cambridge; Three Cups, Colchester; Bell, Chelmsford ; Swan, Bedford; Salisbury Ar n"s Hatfield; White Hart, St. Alban's ; Green Man, Bar net; Salisbury Arms, Hertford ; Saracen's Head. Ware ; and r ' f Leifchitd, Land and Timber Surveyor, Enfield, Mid dlesex. _ _ For viewing the Estatei, application may be made to Mr. Matthew Woodward, at Aspeden ; and Paiticulars and Tickets t o view the .Mansion House and Gardens may be had on ap- P t iPal ion at the Office of Messrs. Lamb and Co. 46, Prince's ,street,by the Bank. nours seat posing icient PARLIAMENT, • HOUSE OF LORDS, THURSDAY ) APRIL 25. o-day prayers were read by the Bishop of r4x ETU' I at about a quarter to four o'clock, and • soon_after the House proceeded with the dispatch of loc a l an d pr i va t e business. 'IIIr. TioMLINS, from the Treasury, 'delivered at the Bar lUtdiy Accounts, pursuant to an Order of this House. c „ MESSAGES FROM THE COMMONS. eir J AMES GRAHAM, Sir H. •HARDINGE, Mr. CORHETT, tr!d others, brought up the Flax and Cotton Bill, the Edin burgh City improvement Bill, and' some other Local Bills, Which Were afterwards read a first time. A The Durham Paving Bill was also brought up, with the 41- rnendment s of their Lordships as agreed to. Earl of SHAFTESBURY laid upon the table , 6th, 7th, th ro f and 9th Reports m the Cmissioers of Inuir into e Courts of Justice in Scotland om and the n salaries of t the y oils. tors ; which, upon the motion of his Lordship, were ordered e printed. umbers of Witnesses had the evidential oaths administered. • ...the Commercial (Ireland) Credit Bill, and the Summary 40ustices of the Peace) Proceedings Bill, were respectively read second time.—Adjourned. MOUSE OF COMMONS. 11 r. MISCELLANEOUS. RAMSDEN presented a Petition from Huddersfield 4 gaiIISI the Bill for allowing the importation of foreign woollen go°43 . —Ordered to be printed. rticl e 4 1 L, Petition was presented from certain merchants and dealers ' c 'reign wines, complaining of the Excise Duties upon those s•—Laid on the table. t JUL MABERLY moved for returns of all Clerks appointed 14 0 chi]. offices since the Ist of January 1816. Also for returns all Clerks who had'retired upon allowances since that period. Ordered. Sir It WILSON called the attention of the House to the 'everity exercised by the Excise towards individuals who sold rZPLarations from wheat in the form of powder. He held in ' , and one of those 'Reparations which was called " Medi ,ted To = OWder," and he understood that this, as well as other preparations, had brought prosecutions upon the per ann.,B who sold them. He thought these proceedings most cruel, c ",of no service whatever to the revenue. He moved for °Pi " of all Instructions given to the Solicitors of Excise for prosecutions in such cases. After a few words from Mr. H. DAVIS and Mr. Lusnrso °x, the r e t urns were or d ere d. v I !!* 'HUME moved for an account of all patents, granted. vi m n a given p er i o d, f or p r i n ti ng mac hines used in the ser- N of GovernMent or any other establishment. Also for re ins of all Stationary supplied to the Irish Government • `"" by Sir A. King, with copies of the invoices delivered with the same. —Ordered. G. BENNET gave notice, that he should shortly nove that the evidence talon before the Opththalmic Corn inittee be printed. L A REFORM. r. PELIIAM presented a petition from the County of ;neeln, praying for Parliamentary Reform. The Hon. Mem r stated his opmien that the landed interest of the country was net duly represented. HERON had been present a t the Meeting, and al-' 4t ° . u gh some good and loyal persons might have been alariped Its nuinbers, yet he could assure them that they exhibited of the dreaded signs of seditio n , an d th a t th e y entered the ; 13l le-yard in most constitutional confusion.—CA laugh.)— , le i nhabitants of the County of Lincoln were almost all en 'aged in agricultural pursuits, industrious, and contented Lord EBRINGTON presented a Petition from the Town of Creditors, in Devonshire, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for a Reform in Parliament.—Ordered to ,be printed. The Marquis of TAVIk‘OCK presented a Petition to the same effect from the County of Bedford. It was signed by 1400 persons, and they expressed their conviction that although they sent their Petition to the House it would not be attended to.— They had for a long time abstained from petitioning for this reason ; but they thought it right to state their grievances once more. They did not expect that the Minister would be at all affected by the account of their distress, as it would in no de gree operate to lessen the power which he possessed, and which placed him beyond the controul of that House. They were of opinion that he was never likely to abandon that power for the benefit of the people, and that Reform alone could give to them their rights. The Noble Marquis would assure Ministers that this was the language of the whole country. They would say that the Foperty of the country, and the , respectable portion of the inhabitants, were in their favour ; and if' by that they meant the noblemen, gentry, clergy, and 'others who had an interest in upholding offices and taxation, he believed they had a majority in their favour. But if they looked to a substantial, body, to the commoners of Eng land, to those who had yet something to lose, and who were not supported by the taxes, they would find the general senti ment to be in unison with the prayer of the Petition. He wished them to go to any county of England and meet this body, and they would' find how much confidence was placed in them. Those whom they had been accustomed to coerce would teach them a lesson very differc-st from that which they seemed to have learnt elsewhere. Mr. M'QUEEN said, that after the energetic manner in which the Petition of these 1,400 inhabitants of Bedford had been supported, he trusted that he might be allow to say a few words in behalf of the remaining 90,000. And he believed that the sentiments of the great body of that number were in direct contradiction to those of the Petitioners. With regard to the Meeting at which this Petition was agreed to, he had received letters informing him, that every means had been used to ex clude those who were opposed to its object, and that constables were stationed at the door, who would not allow such persons to pass. As a specimen of the impartiality of The proceedings, he had been told that the only speech delivered on the other side of the question was dismissed by the reporter in four lines. He had reason to know, and to lament, that the distress of the people of Bedfordshire was very great, but they did not wish to mix up politics with their difficulties. The great majority of the county of Bedford, as of all other places, undoubtedly considered taxation to be grievous ; but they considered it to be the price of their, redemption from foreign thraldom.— (Cheers.)—He thought the main cause of distress to consist in the system of the Poor Rates ; and until that system, were looked manfully in the face, he expected no permanent or sub stantial relief. Mr. F. PALMER was present at the Meeting in question, and denied that constables prevented any one from entering the door. The reason why the Petition was not more numerously signed, was, that the meeting was called at two days* notice ; and there was another circumstance which also prevented many signatures from being added. The Under Sheriff, after the Meeting, put the Petition in his pocket, a situation in which it was impossible for any man to sign it—(a laugh)—and kept it there for the whole of that evening. During this time free holders were running all over the town looking for the Petition, and nobody could find it. With regard to the speech that was omitted, he was sure that the Gentleman who reported the proceedings suppressed the speech out of pure consideration for the young man who made it. - After a few words from Mr. MACQUEEN, in explanation, the Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. Mr. COKE presented a Petition from a place in Norfolk, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for a Re form in Parliament.—Ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. • Lord J. RUSSELL rose and said, he had to call the atten tion of the House to the great question of Parliamentary Re form. .He should move a Resolution that the state of the Re presentation required the serious consideration of the House, - and if he should he so fortunate as to carry that Resolution, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to effect some altera tions on that subject. Althtiugh he felt considerable anxiety on the subject, it was not from any fear that the question itself would, fail to engage the attention of the House. He was aware that it was a question, which, if carried, involved in the opinion of some the ruin, and in that of others (who he beheyed were the majority), the salvation of the country. He had therefore no doubt that the subject would engage the interest of the House, but he feared the weakness of the advocate might prove detrimental to the cause. The (Nestion hat obtained the consideration of men of the greatest talents ever produced in this country, and on that account alone he should be discouraged from taking it up, had he not in soma measure served an apprenticeship to the cause of Reform. He had always however preferred supporting the Reform of others, to the patting fbrward of his own. Yet he was encouraged to bring - the subject forward this Session in a general shape, in consequence of the advan tages of our national situation. ~ire were in the possession of external peace and internal tranquillity, and the time was therefore most favourable for the calm deliberation of the question. Petitions had been presented to the House on. , this important subject from various parts of the country, from several counties and many large towns ; and as the Petitibn ers did not insist upon any exclusive plan of Reform, he thought they were particularly entitled to attention. To iew that the doctrine of universal suffrage, had lost many of its supporters ; he had only to refer to the fact that at a late pub lic meeting, when the venerable -and respectable advocate for 'that species of Reform proposed a motion in its favour, no one was found to second it. This, he thought, chewed a disposi tion on the part of the public to accept such a measure of Re form as the House, upon , deliberation, should be disposed to grant. He now came to examine what it was that was really asked by these petitionerS. Why, simply that the functions of granting public money, of redressing public grievances, and of giving Constitutional advice to the Crown, should be exercised by those who were really the representatives of the people. As these functions were always heretofore exercised by those Representatives, it was clear , that the PArtioners asked for no innovation, "and the question was therefore a mere question of fact—were the Members of that House the Representatives of the People. Pe- was here taking it for ranted, that the Mem bers ought to represent the people, and the people only : for lie rejected a notion which had obtained some attention in that House, that the Members should represent the Crown, and the aristocracy, as well as the people. This he thought a most dangerous theory e and it was at all events absurd to suppose that the balance of King, Lords, and Commons, was to be pre served only in that House. If it were so, it was impossible to say how soon the people might become a minority, and there would then be an end of the balance. He begged to observe that in the measure he was about to propose, he- should not suggest any new constitution of that House. Not that he thought such a suggestion would be absolutely wrong, but merely because he thought the evils complained of might be removed without so extensive a measure. In order to ascertain a correct answer to thee-question of fact with which he had set out, namely; whether that House did or did not represent the people, he would examine the state and condition of the people on the one hand, and that of the House of Commons on the other. The former he would shew had Materially changed, while that of the latterhad - remained stationary. The accordance therefore between that House and the. people had been destroyed. If he proved.this position by thestatement of acts done by that House, which it was impossible ;could be done by those who really represented the people, he thought it irresistibly fol lowed that it 'was the bounden duty of the ,House to set about a reformation of the evil. - The condition of the people had changed. most esSentially in the last forty years. The first distinguishing sign of change was in the increase _of wealth.— This had increased the importance of the middle orders, who were the most respectable of all. They were equally removed from the extremes of poverty and idleness, the former leading to positive crimes known to the law ; the latter inducing to every species of vice. The middle classes indeed formed the safest pillar of the Constitution. Another remarkable change, though it might be called an evidence of the increase of wealth, was in the growth of our manufactures, which had risen from an annual average in 1792, 'of thirteen millions, to one at pre sent of forty millions. The great increase in the home con sumption of British manufactures was particularly deserving of- notice • that consumption% amounting annually to twenty three millions in the article of cotton, and seven in that of wool. It was to be fairly inferred from this circum stance, that no inconsiderable part of our pop u l a tion drew,their subsistence entirely from manufactures. But the most prominent indication of change, and that calling for the deepest attention, was that of the extraordinary increase of intelligence ahnong the people. Intelligence had increased in a degree far surpassing that of the increase of our wealth, and literary talent had been so much encouraged that it was known that one eminent Author had received no less than 80,0001. for the profits of his works. He had ascertained, on inquiry, from a first-rate bookseller, that his house disposed of five millions of volumes annually, maintained 60 clerks, paid 50001. a year for advertisements, and gave excellent employment to po bookbinders. Circulating libraries in the metropolis had in creased in number since the year 1770, from 4 to 100, and in the country there were upwards of 1000. There were 2000 book clubs, in different /parts of the kingdom, which were the means of diffitsing information in all directions upon all subjects. The circulation of the two leading periodical Re views, the Edinburgh and Quarterly, (both written with "considerable ability,) was as - great as that of all other periodi cal works combined, at a period of not more than thirty years back. And to shew how science was finding its way into, and was invited by, the humbler _classes, he had only to state the fact that a friend - of his was able to obtain at a petty shop in the town of - Inverness, a,ocientific -work which he could not procure in the City of Oxford ! his friend being told at the lat ter place, that works of that nature were, never obtained by booksellers unless they were previously ordered. The spread of intelligence was materially increased by the Lancaster and National schools, and by the publication in numbers of cheap editions of the most considerable works of history and ge nius. He observed that Hume, Buffon, and several valuable Encyclopaedias were in a course of publication in numbers at 6d. each. This facility to thhe dissemination of knowledge, it was true, lead received a check by an Act passed in the year 1812.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, answered by the Mi nisterial Benches.)—Another great stimulus to .information was 'in the Bible mid Religious Tract Societies, which published four, millions of publications annually. All these circumstances tended to shew the material increase of knowledge among the middle and lower classes. But this -knowledge had taken a political turn, as might be collected from the increase of 'newspapers ; for a return relating to which he had some time. since obtained an order of the House. That return, though at present incomplete, enabled him to state that twenty-three millions of newspapers were circulated annually in Eng land and WalesE—(The Noble Lord here went into a detail, shewing in the amount that newspapers had doubled in number and circulation within the last thirty years.]-11e would now proceed to examine the question, whether Parlia ment had altered so as to represent this increase of knowledge on the part - of the people. That an examination of this nature was absolutely necessary, could, he thought,_ scarcely be doubted. No Government, he ventured to assert, could be stable, which was not founded upon at least an equality with the state of the people. This he believed to be an evident truth, though a different theory had found its way into the walls of that House. It had been argued by a Right Hon. limber of that House, who was remarkable for the general liberality of his opinions, that the increase of knowledge among the people was a reason for keeping up offices which would otherwise be unnecessary. This was to say in effect, that cor ruption should increase with public honesty, and that the more, the people became enlightened, the less ought the system of, Government. to be able to bear examination. When it had lately been .proposed to' abolish a certain office, this had been the only real objection offered to the abolition. If such a proposition were to be avowedly adopted by that House, the Government, he would venture to say, must be come universally odious, and the people would become indiffe rent to- Monarchy. He would now proceed to look at the state of the Parliament. Blackstone admitted the defective state of the Representation at the dine he wrote, but observed that he thought there was no one free agent in the country who had not in sonic respect an influence over a vote. This was at vari ance with the fact even at that time • but at present there were at least a million of p er s ons , f ree an d independent, who pos sessed not one vote among them. It had been confidently stated, and he believed was not denied, that a majority of that House was returned- by eight thousand persons ; but if they went more into detail, they would find that in propor tion to the increase of knowledge had the bases of the House become narrowed. This was not the case with the whole, but it was sufficient to insure a majority able to influence the decisions of the House. And first with respect to County Members. They were elected undoubtedly by. a great number of persons ; but in England and Wales there were but 92 of these Members. The manner of carrying on elections and the great expense of them when contested, ren, dered a contest very rare. A compromise was therefore in ge neral agreed upon ; one Member was returned by the influence of each party, so that although the right of voting rem a i ne d, the object of it became nullified. The county was, in sub stance, unrepresented. Another change had taken place in consequence of the increase in the number of - Peers selected from the Country Gentlemen. This had been a part of the im provident policy of Mr. Pitt; and at the present day, it was too evident that the Members of the House did not represent the landed wealth of the country, and were often compelled to guide their votes by the directions or at least the influence of others. Indeed he really thought that if that House were abo lished, the other House would soon become very popular ; and he could not but observe, that on the Trial of the late Queen, the other House had shewn an attention to the feelings of the people which had never been observed in the proceedings of the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)—He now came to view of the state of the representation in the great towns.— Some of them, unquestionably, were independent, but in a greater - number the elections were artfully managed, and the elective franchise itself had become much confined, partly by decisions of that House, and partly by gradual usurpation, so. that popular election had become very much narrowed. He -would instance the town of Plymouth, which at the time of the Restoration contained 3000 inhabitants and 700 voters, and although the population had increased to 80,000, the voters had become reduced to 200. Bath and Cambridge were other ex amples of this species of attack on the right of election. He now came, to the great abuse of all. The smaller boroughs of Eng land he would take at 140, returning 280 Members. These very often formed a majority of the House; and it was not to ! ^ forgotten that 100 of these boroughs contained less than 3tMO inhabitants in each. In these boroughs corruption and bribery prevailed natoriously and openly. He might go into minute detail ; but as the practice was acknowledged, he did not think it necessary to trouble the House with particulars.— It was observed last year, by a Cornish Member, that- of,the 42 Members returned y Cornwall, only five of them were -Natives of the county ; and on a late occasion, in another place, it had been said by the Prime Minister that Cornwall represented the , general commercial interests of the country. And this was a system defended in a great measure on account of its elasticity ; its power of adaptation to circumstances. He begged thee House to look at the consequence of such a system. It was a violation of the laws of Parliament, and therefore commenced in perjury, and it was continued by drunkenness and every sort of immorality ; and after all it was any thing but Representation. When the money was paid the voters cared not a farthing whether the person they elected, was Whig or Tory, or whether he supported the Brunswicks or the Stuarts, or the Nabob of Arcot. It included therefore that most intolerable of all grievances, power without respon sibility. It very often happened that a Member for one of these Boroughs represented some great commerical house ; and one of them had told him (Lord John) that he had no desire to ,obtain a Seat in the House of Commons fbr himself, but that his partners desired it. But many advantages were derived by the proprietors of those seats, especially during a war, in the course of one of which, a Humber had cleared 15,0001. by a single tradirg licence granted to him for his support of the measures of Government. "As to the very small Boroughs, they were very often disposed of to the Government, for few persons were disposed to purchase the privilege of being in a minority. Some of these were actually oVer-run by patron age ; and he would only mention, by way of example, the place which had the honour to send the Chancellor of the Exchequer to that House. He had a list of several persons, voters for that place, or connected with it, who held situations in the Post-office, the Custom-house, and other public esta blishments ; and this was the real state of the representation compared with that of the people. It had been said by the late Mr. Windham that no substantial evil resulted from all this, and that Right Hon. Gentleman had compared the com plaining people to the man mentioned in the Spectator, who said he had every symptom of the gout except the pain.—(A laugh.)—Now, whatever might be the situation of die country when that observation was made, it was too true that at this moment we had the last symptom' to complete the disease ; for we had the pain. The distress occasioned by measures, which would never have been adopted under a true Repre sentation of the people, he was aware could not now be effectually relieved by a mere alteration ; but that alteration might serve us for the future. against similar measures. After some observations on Mr. Pitt's conduct in Parliament re specting the question of Reform, the Noble Lord proceeded shortly to notice the Anti-Jacobin war, the peace of Amiens, and the following war. This .brought him to touch upon the Walcheren expedition, so far as in its consequences it bore upon the present question. An expedition more marked for ignorance In its plan, and incapacity in its execution, had never disgraced the councils of this country. It had been fol lowed by disgrace and calamity of the worst description ; yet had the then House of Commons pronounced a formal eulogium on 'Ministers for having planned that expedition. So strong a fact as this, at a time when the people were calling for the pu nishment of all who were concerned in the planning of that very expedition, could not but make a strong impression on the public mind as to the state of what was called the repre sentation of the people. The House, however, thanked the Ministers ; the chief planner of the expedition was at that mo ment the first Minister in that House, and the General who commanded the expedition had been rewarded with one of the mast lucrative foreign corrunands in the gift of the Crown. The Spanish war followed shortly after this expedition, and as that was a popular war, Ministers were enabled to divert the attention of the people from the present important subject ; and they continued to sanction every abuse, and to avail themselves of every possible means of increasing their influence.- The war having ceased, it became a question with the country whether they would have an expensive military or a cheap civil Government. Had the Commons represented the people the latter no doubt would have been chosen, but they voted the keeping of an army of 99,000 Men with corresponding establishments ; yet he found on examination that these votes were not carried by a majority of County Members, among whom there was a majority against Ministers in the proportion of three to two. A Noble Friend of his, the Member for York shire (Lord Milton), had made a series of calculations respect ing several votes of the Houses within the last five years. He (Lord J.) had also made some calculations on the same subject, and in his own calculation he had called Opposition Members ail those who had given three votes in favour of-popular mea sures, and this he thought would be considered a very fair cal culation. His Noble Friend had taken the two principal votes, one upon the motion for reducing establishments, and the other respecting the proceedings against the late Queen. It was found, that out of the Members for 33 boroughs, containing less than 1000 inhabitants each, 12 voted against Ministers, and 44 in their favour ; out of 35 boroughs, containing less than 2000 in habitants each, 15 against Ministers and 45 for them ; out of 76 towns; containing less than 5000 inhabitants, 48 against Mi nisters and 93 for them ; out of 25 towns, containing from 5 to 10,000 inhabitants, 22 against Ministers and 27 for them ; and then it was remarkable that, out of 31 places, containing up- wards of 10,000 inhabitants each, 38 voted, against Ministers and only 21 for, them. The calculation which he (Lord John Russell) had made led to the following results :—Out of the representatives for places containing less than 500 inha bitants, one only voted for reduction and nineteen against it. From places containing more than 500 and less than 1000 inhabitants each, twelve for reduction and thirty,.three against it. From places containing upwards of 1000 and less than 2000 inhabitants, seventeen for reduction and forty-four against it. From places containing upwards of 2000 and less than 3000 inhabitants, 19 for reduction and 48 against it. From places containing between 3000 and 5000 inhabitants, 25 for reduc tion and 45 against it ; and then (and here he begged the at tention of the House) when they came to places containing more than 5000 inhabitants it was found that sixty-six voted for redUction ' and forty-seven against it. The general re sult was, that at the lowest point of the population Minis ters had a majority of 19 to one, and that as the population rose, their majority,sunk to three to one, and at last they were at the higher points of population, in a minority of three against five. These facts, he submitted, were a complete answer to volumes of argument in favour of virtual representation. But the most convincing proof on the subject was to be collected from the votes of this year.. He would take two questions of reduction ; one was that of the Salt Tax, and the other was that relating to the office of Postmaster-General. On the former of these, the numbers were 169. and 165, leaving a majority of four 'for 'Ministers. In the minority, there were forty-two 1 County Members, and fifty r five Representatives for gieat towns; there being only fifty-six of this descrption. In the majority there were only 14 county members, but there were 61 placemen, only ten.. of whom could be said 'to represent a county or any great town. On the question of reducing one of the Post Masters-General, the numbers were 159 for, and 184 against the motion, leaving a majority of 25 for Ministers.' In the minority there were 29 county members, and 40 represen tatives for large towns. In the majority there were only 11 county members, and only 23 representatives for' arge towns. The proportion of the majority against Ministeri,'on the point of population, was 69 to 34. Surely if any thing could make an impression upon the House, it was the statement of these facts. The representatives of the people were merged in a minority in that House. The doctrine broached on a late memorable night, . that uselesi offices should be.kept up as a counterpoise against the increased intelligence of the people, should not be forgotten'..—(Hear.)--This was a doctrine which,, to the Hon. Member for Knaresborough (Sir J. Mackintosh), whose his torical and constitutional knowledge was so great, was new and at which the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes) was alarmed. It was sanctioned by those who were not- the representatives of the people, and the question it was meant to support was carried, whilst the real representatives of the people were not in the majority. In this state of things he begged the House to look at the confusion which must arise from the different uses to which power was applied-from what it was granted for. Let them look at the single effect of those grant mg money who were afterwards to have the benefit of it, and the powers of countroul and inquiry sunk in the employment of other powers against the sanction of the people. Every man who loved his country must be alarmed at the danger whiCh threatened the Constitution while matters went. on thus.— Having shewn the practical results of a corrupt system of -re- presentation„he would mention another result, which was more grievous to the friends of liberty. The natural balance of the Constitution was, that the Crown should appoint its own Mi nistry—that these Ministers should have the confidence of the louse of Commons, and that the House of Commons should represent the sense of the people. This was the just construe- Lion of the machinery of Government, and if any part of it were deranged, the whole must be affected. Thus, when the Stuarts Were on the Throne, the Ministry did not possess the con fidence of the House of Commons, and the consequence was, popnlar tumult and civil war. But now the Ministers did enjoy the confidence of the House, but the House had not -the respect or reverence of the people.—(Hear !)—They bad seen tumults and insurrections, and every symptom of disorder arising from an excess of popular license, and justly creating the greatest alarm. They had seen the remedies.attempted to be administered, in the shape of measures of severe coercion and restrictive laws, backed by an enormous standing army ; and they had witnessed the failure of these remedies to re move the evil. In his opinion the liberty of England was the only basis on which that House could rest. It was im possible to make the House of Commons, which was in tended to represent popular sentiment, a severe curb upon popular affection. _They could not hope that freedom would submit to be shackled, or would continue to support them, .if not permitted to go at large, according to the policy of -o u r I ancestors. England abjured the aid of a standing army to foster her liberties. This was the melancholy case which.re suited from an attempt to govern the country by other means than those pursued by our ancestors. Acting upon 'ifferent principles, they had seen the Ministers obliged to have recourse to other measures in order to maintain their equilibrium. This was an inconvenience which Govern ment itself ought to wish to get rid of ; for if Parliament re presented the sentiments of the people, they would have no thing to do but to submit their measures to that body, and take the sense of their, approbation upon them. Instead of that simple course, however, as things now stood, they were obliged to go through a much narrower and more difficult road to ar rive at the same point. During the whole Session they were forced to occupy themselves in minutely studying the senti ments of the borough interest ; and when the Session was over, they found all their work undone, because there was-ouch a thing as a public opinion, and a free press, which condemned the Ministers, and the House which had sanctioned their mea sures. Thus had they recently been seen forced to reduce the numbers of their standing army nearly one-third of the whole amount. He confessed he had never seen any thing in;the present Miniiters which could lead him to impute to them-any. dark designs against the Constitution of the country. He be lieved their policy was to do as little good, and as little.evil, as, might be necessary just to ensure their retention of place; and he believed it was much the same to them, whether their.mea sures were adopted as they first proposed them, or whether they afterwards were obliged to alter them in obedience -to the opi nion of others. It would therefore be more convenient to them selves to find the House of Commons an echo of the public sentiment, so that by coming into that House they could at once feel the pulse of the people.—(Hear.)—Of the incon venience of the course they were obliged to adopt, however, would borrow an example from the present Session.— • li would be remembered that at the commencement of this ' Session the agricultural classes felt they had cause to complain of the embarrassed situation of their interests, .and were of opinion that some of the measures taken by his Majesty's Ministers were not altogether wise. What was the course pursued by them under this dispensation ? Did they-endeavour to fortify themselves with public opinion? Far from it. They applied for aid to a Party, known in this country by the name of the Grenville Party. The weight of the character. and talents of Lord Grenville, as their leader, remarkable for a rare union of learning and eloquence, gave an -in fluence to the Party which they otherwise would not have - possessed. But many years. ago, this Nobleman announced his intention of retiring from public, life, and without him the character and influence of the Grenville Party might be set down as nothing.—(Hear, hear, hear, and a laugh is s . They might possess some credit whilst united with him, but deprived of him the people held them in particular abhorrence. —(Hear, and a laugh.)—Whether Tories, Whigs, or Radicals, all were ready to club together their share of vituperation against the Grenvilles. Therefore, in point of character, \ they formed no accessitlnto the Ministers. But it was sisrprising to those who thus viewed the matter, to . see all on a sud den, a surprising commotion amongst this sect.. It seemed as though an order had been issued for a levy en nzassc of the whole of them and their adherents, for the. services of the public. One was sent to Switzerland, with a salary sufficiently large to corrupt the whole Senate. Another, like a second Bacchus, became the Conq ue r or o f th e Indies.— (A laugh.)—They became, in short, the persons on whom all the favours of the Crown were to be bestowed. But was there any disposition on the part of the people at large to contribute in any way to this addition to Ministerial force ? None ; but there was the accession of strength in that House of a certain number of Boroughs. In another way also it-was advantageous. There was a certain rule which had been obtained by our ancestors; as . all their other advantages on the side of liberty were obtained— by strong contest with power, viz. that upon taking office the Members of that House should go back to their consti tuents to ask their approbation. This was avoided in the case of the Grenvilles. They had no constituents to present them. selves before, and it might have been ratherawkward if they had. They might, for instance, have been asked if they had altered their opinion on the salt tax ; and, with regard to Ire land, whether among the numerous and remarkable variety of bargains they had made, they had made any stipulation in favour of five millions of their,fellow-creatures, who were kept aloof from an equal participation in the common interests of the community. But the greater part of these Gentlemen had no constitution but one, betwixt whom and themselves no doubt there existed what Mr. Pitt thought there should always be between the constituent and representative—the closest-in terest and the strongest sympathy.—(A laugh.)—But they had no opportunity of wining . information on this point. The Members for Buckingham appeared in that House, but he could only consider them as persons disguised as representa tives of the people, not being bona fide such. Such were the ways Ministers were obliged to resort -to, and he considered it as an argument in favour of reform. But there was one point in favour of, his argument to be derived from authority, on which he had not touched. The great Lord Clarendon -had declared that a reform in the representation was worthy of being adopted in better times • Mr. Locke had given the same opinion with reference to Old Sarum, and other, places, and the sentiments of Blackstone; Chatham, Pitt, anti Fox-, in favour of reform, he need not repeat. Thus they "had. a singular combination in favour of reform. There was Lord. Clarendon, the revered Tory Statesman ; Mr. Locke, the most liberal of Whig philosophers ; Blackstone, the, most• universally admired constitutional lawyer; _Lord Chatha-rn, the boldest practical Minister; Mr. Pitt, the head. of. a most enthusiastic party . in his favour ; and Mr. Fox, an equal object of affection and esteem to another.—, (Hear, hear, hear !)—This union of talent conveyed to his Mind that confidence, which experience only could give with. out it.. In England such an union of her first and best-should be looked to as a precedent. In his mind it took away all the raggedness of innovation from the measures which they sewn mended. On the other side, they had only Burke and Wind ham. He did not wish to disparage them, but he did not feel . disposed to give equal weight to their opinions, as to those he had citede- Having, therefore, thus described what he considered as the improved state of the country in point of wealth and "learning, and stated the mischief arising from the difference between the state of the , nountry and that House, irremained for him to explain the plan which might. convey some remedy. The :plans of Lord Chatham and M r. • Pitt had been to add 100 Members to the numbers of the House, and Mr. Burke had fallen into 'the same-plan, giving the votes to a certain number of householders; and Mr. Fox said it was the best outline of a plan that could be framed. He , (Lord J. Russell) coincided in this respect with the authority' of these great persons. 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