The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

PARLIAiMENT, HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, FEB. 22. The Bishop of Ossoav took the oaths and his seat.—The Assize Commission opening Bill was read a second time,. and ordered to be committed on Monday.—Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. This being the last day for receiving Petitions fur Private Bills, the House was occupied till a late hour with private business. • • WEST INDIA DOCK COMPANY. Mr. IRVING-'preserited • a Petition froni the. West India Dock Conopnny; praying , that their' privileges, might be con tinue to. be printed. . AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. FI.E3IINO , presented a Petition from the Cour.ty of Seuthampton i complaining of AgricultUral distress.' - A similros ketition was presented frnin Occupiers of Land in the COunry of Oxford. - ' BREAKFAST POWDER. CURNITEN presented a Petition from a person of the name of Wyide, in the Seven Dials, praying that an Act might he intrctiq:::_d to permit the manufacture of breakfast powder, made of roasted English grain. The Petition stated, that the Petitioner bait been threatened with. a legal process if he con tinued to sell-this powder. Mr. LITSIIINt4TON said, he had inquired into the matter, and found that the encouragement of this trade would be highly prejudicial to the, Revenue. The Petition was ordered to be printed.. _ _ _ The Land Tax Miscellaneous Commissioners Names' Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed that day fortnight... . An Account was laid on the table of the amount and appro priation of the rates of the Trinity House. Mrt i JANIES pre tinted a Petition from John Knight, and =Other complaining of their; letters being broken open in the gaol'of Lancastc.'r, and praying that that practice might be dis continued'during • their detention in that gaol.---Ordered to be printed. . • • ,•' • The iron: Member then gave notice of a motion to take this Petition into considerationon Monday next. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of. the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Com mittee of Supply, to consider of the Ways and Means df the United Kingdom. Colonel' DAVIES said, before they went into the Commit tee, he wished' to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman what was the meaning of ,the discrepancy which was observed , between the financial statement of the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and the Estimates which had since been laid before the House. That difference amounted, upon different items, , to no less a sum than 1,961;0001., and when the House remembered that .the Noble czquis took particular credit to himself • for the flourishing state of the Finance of the country, it was' necessary theysheuld - have some .explanation of it. . • • he. CHANCELLOR of the ENCHEQUER answered in a low tone of voice. We, understood him . to say, that it was not extraordinary that accounts made up at different periods, and - for different purposes, and also by different departments, should present some difference in their totals, The accounts al luded to by the lion. and Gallant Member Were not offered as exact statements. N 34r. HUME expressed his •obligations to his Gallant Friend who had brought the question forward.. He wished to have the Chancellor of the Exchequer explain what he meant by ac counts made up for different purposes. For - instance, he had in.his hand one account stating the public income for the year ending ,sth January 1821, at 1,200,0001. of a surplus. lie had another; which stated ' a very different result. Instead, there= fore of proceeding .into a Committee of • Supply, he thought they should • not proceed one step further without calling upon the Chancellor of • the Exchequer to reconcile these two state ments of the public income. He should move two resolutions to that effect at a future period of the eveninf. • The. CHANCELEOtt. of the EXC LQU ER . spoke a few word; across the fable, which were quite inaudifJle in the gallery, • - -• • ' - Mr. RICAR.DO said the Chancellor of the Exchequer had observed, that if it had not been for the circumstance of a sum of money havintrbeen • necessarily paid for the interest of EX chequer Bills, there would be a surplus nest year of four mil. Lions. On looking into the papers lie (Mr. R.) found that the surplus next year would be little more than two millions ; and for the purpose of reconciling; the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman with the fact, he bad examined the account of the interest upon Exchequer Bills, and he foundthat only 2,1.011,0001. was paid on thet account. If this was the case, how it pos . . able for the House to know what sum alight . not be called for next year to pay interest upon Exchequer Bills ? Antither item in the paper spoke ~of the whole ordinary and extraordinary expences as eighteen Millions . : anti on casting them up he found Them to amount , to half..amillion , more.- The Right, Hon. Gentleman had also last-year spoken of , a surplus of four -mil lions, which now turned. out to be no more than two millions and an half. These statemefitg were very far from being satis factory, and he 'should like. whear them explained.: • T'ne CHA N LOR of the EXC II EQUE R said one .ge neral ob3;,:iva...ion would 'suffice to answer the remarks of the Hon. Metnber, The account referred to included. the Conso lidated. Fund as well. as :the Annual, &rant ; ,and the , suing in question tbrmed.nopart of the supply for the year. The ap propriation of all sums. paid for interest upon Exchequer Bills came regularly before•the House t - but Ole object of the perma.' tent account being merely to control Me grant fur the year, could not interfaie with it in point of calculation.. ... • ^ • Mr. ELIACE- wished to ask the '...ltight Hon. Gentleman, whether he intended to propose :the appointment of a Select Committee for examining the mode of conducting the Public Accounts ? Such a Committee he thought isiyhly necesstiry. He al :a wishal to know whether, in case of a deficiency for the present year, it was intended to supply fait!: deficiency by an issusi.of Exchequer Bilis. And as to the sum fixed to be paid to the Ceminissioners for reducing _the National Debt, he wished to know what was to 'become of any surplus beyond' that sums . :*1 •The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in answer to the' first questiononat he thodght such a Committee as had been alluded to • would be. highly desirable, and 'he should therefore not object to the Committee. With respect to the second question, he begged to observe, that the amotint.of the Sinking Fund was not discretionary ;it wag fixed - by Act of Parliament. In casts of an exeess, it went to the Consoli dated Fund ; and in case of a deficiency, it afflicted the Consoli dated Fund of the next year. Mr. CURWEN wiihed . to 'ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was his intention to +propose a tax upon tallow, in lieu of that upon soap and candles ? . ,• Mr. TIERNEY observed, it was stated that four millions were paid to the Cothmtssioners' for redeeming the Debt, but on examination -it !appeared that .there.were but two real mil lions, the other two being added to the Unfunded Debt. , This appeared to him to be a perfect juggle. The CHANCELLOR of the:.•EXCHEQUER said, the Right lion. Gentleman ought to know that there was a fixed sum which thirst, in-all 'events; •be apprOpriated to the Sinking Fund, and in case of a deficiency it must -be made up by an ad dition to the Unfunded Dcbt. A quarter's instalment was al ways paid in advance. This was what the Right Hon. Gentl eman called atjuKtile. .. . • : ; • • - Mr. TIERNbY said, he really had not meddled with the Right lion. Gentleman or. his calculations for six years. He could not understand them; and he believed there were not tiro Or three.Mernbers . of the :Rollie vthodid.:-.(Hear, hear !).--The accounts ought to. be made ,intelligible. From the explanation just tven, it appeared that it wasa permanent plan not to rea lize e Sinking •Fund. - • • • • ' • _ _ Mr. BRIG IIT said, he understood from the Hon. Member (ktr. Curwen) that be proposed to entourage the repeal of a tax upon Soap and Candles to replace it upon tallow; He (Mr. Bright). was willing to take. off taxes ' but he would not con sent to the mere removal of them- All -the interests of the country were, he thought, alike oppressed ; though it had become the fashion to claim a monopoly of distress for the agriculturists. • Ai.. CUR WEN explained. Ilisobject was to cause thejzi, position of a Tax upon Russian Tallow. He disclaimed any wish for the mere removal ()fluxes' front- the shoulders of one class to those of another. . • • • • a. • . • • Mr. N. CALVERT, referring to the observation of the last speaker, said-, it was a mistake to supposethat a Tax upon any foreign commodity always affected the consumers of that com modity. Col. WOOD said, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was desirous to remove the Tax upon Soap and Candles, and place it upon imported Tallow, his doing so would be.don- sidered a boon by his (Col. Wood's) constituents- The law regulating the present Tax empowered Excise Officers to visit their houses. • Mr. COKE wished to ask a question of 'the Noble Marquis respecting a Mr.. Brown, who had been suspended from his situation in the office of the Vice-Consul. [ We could not hear the name of the place mentioned by the: Hon. Meitker;]-:—The suspension had taken place.five year* since, and he had never been brought to any trial. The Marquis - of LONDONDERRY said, that in all cases of this description the Vice-Consul had the power of 'removing those in whom he did not place confidence; though this power was subject to the control of the Foreign Office. As the indi vidluaT in question had brought the remark upon himself, he would state that the circum§tances attending . the suspension of Mr. Brown had undergone ihfiiivestigatihn in the Foreign Of and that the reasons -stated' for the suspension appeared perfectly satisfactory. Mr. R. SMITH wished to know from the Noble Marquis whether he had any cornmunicatmn to make respecting the Austrian Loan, amounting with interest to 21 millions. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY (as wits understood), said that the correspondenee.iiith the Austrian Government upon the subject had' been renewed, but that he was not prepared at present to make any satisfactory communication to the House. Mr. R. SMITH then gave notice that he should on an early day submit to the House a Resolution respecting this Loan. Sir ISAAC COFFIN, referring to some observation Made by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, was about to remark upon some subject connected with the Navy Estimates, when The SPEAKER rose to order. The question he said before the Houk was, not upon the Nivy Estimdtes, but - whether he should leave the Chair in order to the House going into a Com mittee of Ways and Means. Sir I. COFFIN explained. Mr. S. RICE wished to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to propose any remission of the . Irish Window Tax ? • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, Mini sters had already declared the extent to which the reduction of taxes could safely be brought. However he begged to observe, that the benefit of the Malt Tax Repeal would be extended to Ireland: •• The motion " that the Speaker do leave the Chair," was then agreed to: the Speaker left the Chair, and the . House being in a Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the' usual annual vote for the Tax upon Tobacco• and Snuff.- 7 - Agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved the next item, in the usual annual. vote; . for a duty - of 4s. in the pound upon Pensions and Offices. Mr. HUME rose and moved a amendment, that the sum be altered to 108. in the pound upon all pensions above. 2001. (Cheers from the Opposition.) • . • - Mr. TIERNEY thought notice should have been given of the intended amendment. There might be 'Manx pensions to which the proposeddlity Might with propriety attach,-but the House was quite unprepared for the motion. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Hon. Member that, even if he carried his motion, his object would not be gained, as there were • many, pensions and offices expressly exempted from the proposed tax. • The greater num ber of offices were excepted, and the amendment could only affect the older ones. He thought it was most improper to take the House by surprise upon a motion hitherto regarded as a motion of course: . • Mr. CREEVEY'said, they were then voting away the pub lie money, and although imight have been better had his Hon. Friend given notice, he could not adopt the . doctrine of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr: Tierney). There was'no abso lute necessity for giving' notice. 'Mr. TIERNEY said he had not contended upon the neces sity of 'giving'notice.- He had only suggested the propriety of observing courtesy and candour towards political opponents,— (Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—lt would have been considered unfair if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had unex pectedly come down to that House and proposed a vote of only 3s. in the pound. He trusted the Hon. Member for Appleby (Mr. Creevey) was not Offended. Hii object really was 'that the House should know what it was about. Mr. HUME denied that he had ever upon any occasion shewn a disposition to take the House or any Member by sur4 piise Ile therefore would withdraw his amendment ter the present ; • but he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would lay before the House a return, containing a list of the pensions nominally affeeted by the vote,, and stating what were and what were not exempted, and the grounds of exemption. To enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to produce such a return,lie begged to withdraw his amendment, and. to substitute another, pro posing the postponement of the vote. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had not the least objection to meet the amendment upon principle; but the present was a motion which had been always agreed to since the reign of King and he . therefore trusted the Hon. Member would not impede the course of the annual Bill. Mr. BERNAL could see nothing unfair in the amendrnent of his Hon. Friend. There - Could be no incOnyenisnce what ever in the postponement for a few daYs, particularly as the delay would enable the Right Honourable Gentleman to make out the necessary return. If the vote were not stopped in' its present ihape, it would be said afterwards that any discussion of the question was too late. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had merely stated'in effect, that the present amendment would 'give some Pensions an advantage over others. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said he could not see why the vote could not be shaped so as to reach all Pensions, notwithstand ing the exemptions.' The preient - vote would of course form part of an Act of Parliament: Ile supported the motion for a postponement. • ' Mr. HUME said he held in his hand a Paper, being a Re turn from the Admiralty Office,'containing among other names that of a person who had formerly received 200 L a year ; and retired from office as incapable of service, upon a pension; had then been appointed to another office.;—(Hear, hear, from the OppoSition)l.,had retired from that;— . -(Cheers from the Opposi tion)—and was now in the possession ofa third office. The two last offices were, a Commissioner of Stamps, and Paymaster of WidOw's Pensions. The total of the Pensions paid . to this in dividual, was 14001.—(Hear, hear, and name, name, from the Opposition.)—The name, which he had no wish unnecessarily to mention, was Edward Finch Hatton. Sir J.DSBORNE said the Hon: Member must be mistaken respecting-the Gentleman alluded to. Air. Hatton had filled the office of Under Secretaryof State. . _ Mr. FIUME pledged himself to the accuracy of his state merd. He begged that the paper might be read by the Clerk at the table. The paper was accordingly read by the Clerk; when the Chairman ( yfr.Brogden) observed, that the total was but 1:800. Mr. HUME said, that the third 'office; for which Mr. Hat ton received OM a-year, had not the salary anneked tottlie statement ; but he believed that six and six made twelve, and that two added made fourteen—(A Laugh, and Cheers from the Opposition.)—Me now begged to congratulate the llouse upon the specimen they had of the year's estimates. lie pro tested against the practice which was gaining groUnd of offer ing flat contradictions to statements which were borne out by returns before the House. He called upon the House to sup port his motion for-a postponement. The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that the pension alluded to was received by Mr. Hatton while he was a Commissioner of Stamps. The third office was a place of trust though not of great exertion. And he ought to ob serve that Mr. Hatton had retired from the office of Under Secretary of State without a pension. He (the Chancellor) could not consent to delay the present vote, as it would interfere with the public service ; but he repeated his readiness to meet the substance of the amendment of the Eon. Member, if he would bring it forward in the proper course. Mr. TIERNEY: said, he •really thought the Right Hon, Gentleman had not made out a case to justify, his refusing the postponement. hoped' the delay would be agreed to ; if not, he would divide with the Member for Aberdeen, should• he think proper to take the sense of the House. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the present ques tion was referrable-entirely to the convenience of the House. The present Amendment was not a convenient vehicle for im posing the tax in question, even if after a regular discussion it should be thought proper to impose it. There could be no rea= son for delaying-a-Bill which had always passed as a matter of course since the reign of King, William. The • Amendment, if' adopted upon principle, might be placed upon a more compre hensive ground, and more conveniently for the object 'of the Member: for Aberdeen. It appeared to him ,that the best course would be to pass the Billin its present state, and that done, it would still be open to the Hon. Member to bring . forward any remedy which he flight think called for by the circumstances of the ease. • ' • • Mr. HUME wished for information. The only point under consideration was, whether or not the resolution should be post poned. This he contended might be done • with Out injury to .the:public serilce. • • • • • • • - Mr. BENNETT thought his Hon. Friend would do better to follow hit Own judgMent than to take the advice of the No ble Maiquis. He Objecteettb the'Bill altogether, and had come there, if he might so express himself, to lend -it a lift as far as lay in his power. No measure could be worse imagined than this was, which exposed . the same rate of taxation oil' those whose situations were 'essentially different', and dealt with an office that might be very ill paid, in the same way as it dealt with one who might be greatly over-paid. He therefore wished to stop the progress of the Bill, as he thought.it'neeessaty that its provisions should come under the consideration of the House, or be subjected to the inquiries of a Committee.— He now begged to 'move that the Chairthan shOuld report progress. . Mr. BROGDEN said, an amendment had already been moved by an• Hon. Gentleman. That amendment he had un derstood the Hon. Gentleman (Mr: Humejli6 desired to with draw for the purpose of substituting another:- - •• Mr. CROKER begged to say that Mr. Finch Hatton had never been connected with the Admiralty-Office, and therefore the Lord of the Admiralty near him was quite right in the con; rection which he had supplied. He would state what had - led to the misconception. In 1811, an Act of Parliament passed to appropriate old naval stores, by which those pensioni which had been paid out of the produce of those stores before, were ordered to be carried to the naval estimates. This had caused the name of Mr. Hatton td appear there, but he had never been connected with the Admiralty. Mr. BROUGHAM rose to show that the correction was in correct. BROGDEN remarked to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that he had first to submit a question to the Com mittee, on which no one could speak, but to assent or dissent. He had to ascertain whether it was the pleasure of the House that the amendment should be withdrawn. The amendment having been withdrawn, Mr. BROUGHAM was sorry that he had already caused the Committee to • lose , more time -than would have been con sumed by whittle had to offer, even if the tale were twice told. He rose to prove to the Hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, bad been right, and the Lord of the Admiralty, in correcting him, was wrong. Such a failure in an attempt at correction he, and perhaps the oldest Member in the. House, had never witnessed. 'lle Hon. Gentleman was now said to be wrong, because Mr. Finch Hatton had not.. been connected with the Admiralty, though his name had been transferred, there by the Act for Ap propriating Naval Stores. There was another reason foi his being regarded as connected with the Admiralty. His name was in a return from the Admiralty, No. 6, signed James Dyer, Chief Clerk. There was yet another reason for it ; Mr. Hatton was PaYmastei of Widows' Pensions for the Navy and Marines. Mr. CROKER said, the parties which paid the Widows' Pensions formed a Corporation quite distinct from the Admi ralty, with which it had never been connected. The name of Mr. F. Hatton had never appeared in the Admiralty Returns or Navy Estimates, till it was carried there by the Act to which he had alluded. It had never been denied that his name was returned, but he had thought it right to explain how this had happened. Mr. HUME named other Papers relative to the Admiralty, in which Mr. Hatton's name would be found. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, within the - fast five years the in come of the individual who had been mentioned had been raised from 2001. to what it was at present. He hoped it would not be contended there existed any particular reason from exempt ing that from the reductions now to be carried into effect. Mr. ELLICE suggested that the offices which this Bill of fected, or at least some of them, might be advantageously re duced. Sir J. OSBORNE said, when he corrected the Honour able Member he had understood him to say, that Mr. Finch Hatton had retired from the Admiralty. He now understood that what he had said was that the name of that: individual was returned from the Admiralty, and this, he had never meant to deny. Mr. FUME considered an additional reason to be furnished for inquiring into this subject, by the fact that till 1800, the duties of the office in question had been performed for a sa lary of one hundred pounds. Then it rose to two hundred pounds, and thus it remained till 1813, when Ministers were so flush of money that they raised it to 6001. He thought it ought now to be reduced to 2001. Mr. CROKER observed, when this item came before the House, it would be his duty to explain 'it as he had often done before. It might be for the general convenience that he should not do so at present, and he only mentioned it now that it might not be thought he treated the suggestion which had been thrown out from Ole-opposite side with disrespect. The chairman read the Resolution. On coming to the words " fOur shillings and no more," Mr. SCARLETT objected to the words, " no more," as if these were retained no alteration could afterwards be made in the Bill. He thought the Resolution might be postponed. The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would have no objection to - postpone the Resolution, if agreeing to it now could occasion any inconvenience, but he did_ not see that this was likely ; and, on the other hand, the inconvenience of de viating from the established course ought not to be disregarded. He thought it would be better that the duty should fall- on the next salaries than to - begin by going back to the old nominal incomes. For another year he thought.there could be no harm in going on in the old way, and- It would at all times be open to those who objected to the measure which had been called in question, to propose any a lt era ti o n th a t m i g h t seem d es i ra bl e .. Mr. ENNETT moved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The Committee divided on this— For the Amendrnent Against it Majority When strangers were re-admitted, Mr. CALCRAFT was on his legs, objecting to the words " no more," in the Resolution. He moved that they should be omitted. - 11?, - -47 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declined op posing the Ainendment. i!lr. ELLICE wished to know what was the expense of col lecting the Tax ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under stood to gay that it was collected with the Land Tax. Mr. ELLICE remarked, if the pensions - on which it at tached were reduced„ the expence of collecting the duty might be saved. The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER said, it was intended to make some alterations in the mode of collecting the Revenue. Mr. HUME reminded the Right Hon. Gentleman that when he (Mr. Hume) had brought forward this subject, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had stood up to negative his motion. He complained of the conduct of the Right Honour.. able Gentleman, but hoped he would carry his present resolu tion into effect. Mr. BROUGHANI hoped the expense of collecting the Sixpenny and Shilling Duties would also be diminished.,... Were such means resorted to, much might be saved, but this did not appear to be object of Ministers. In proof of this, he alluded to the case of an individual who having been superan nuated in one office, now held two others in the Land Tax Office. He would direct the attention of his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen to that office, and he was sure if he looked there he would find plenty of abuses to occupy him for some time. The motion, as amended by the omission of the words " no more,!' was then agreed to. It was then moved that the Sugar Duties, and the Duties on Foreign Spirits and Sweets, should be further continued.— Agreed to. PATMENT OF THE FIVE PER CENTS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hgwing moved that the sum of 20,000,0001. should be granted by Exchequer Bills for the service of Great Britain in 1822, Mr. ELLICE wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, if in proposing any part of the Ways and Means that night, it was his intention to offer any statement to the House on the subject of the transaction which had taken place that morning at the Treasury Chamber. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was his intention on Monday to submit a motion to the House which would bring under their consideration the whole plan for reducing the Five per cents. The motion was then agreed to. It was next moved that's sum. of 4,000,0001. granted by Ex chequer Bills to complete the service of tbeyear 1821, should be made applicable to the service of 1822.—Agreed to.. The House then resumed, and the Report of the Committee was ordered to be read on Monday. NOTICE OF MOTION. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that several Acts relative to the five per cent. Stock should be en tered as read." He then gave notice that on Monday he would move that the House go'into's. - Committee on the sa..l Acts, for the purpose of taking into their consideration the plan adopted by Nlimsters for paying of!' the Five percent. CoICiNfiTTEE OF SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the House should resOlve itself into a Committee of Supply. Sir M. W. RIDLEY had been asked whether he proposed bringing forward a motion in the 'Conimittee of Supply on the- subject of the Lords of the Admiralty. Such was not his intention,,as he had given notice of a motion for Thurs day Se'nnight. Mr.' BERNAL said he meant to object to that part of the Estimates which went to provide for the six Lords of the Ad miralty. Tfie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER purposed soon to state the principle on which' the redtictions which had taken place had been made. Those. offices which were me re ly civil offices, and not political, had been already dealt with. in others it' was proposed that a reduCtion of 10 per cent, should be made by an Order in Council.' • . Mr. HUME said that he hoped the !louse would not go into a Committee at present, and he would. endeavour to state his reasons for wishing them to come di that determination.—Vhey would recollect that the Noble Marquis - opposite had at the be ginning of the last Session stated to:.the House on the part Of Ministers generally that every disposition existed on their,part to give full information to the House" on all part's of the Esti mate. He (Mr. Hume) had hailed that statement with con siderable pleasure; and he had expected that it would have been attended with considerable effect. But he was sorry to find that; after that declaration had been made, there was still a wish, on the part of Ministers, to withhold necessary infor. motion from the House. He should therefore oppose the motion for the House resolving into a'Committee, because lie thought that it was the duty of -the House, before •they voted. the estimates, to know how the sums granted were to be applied. The first estimate which had been returned to the House was the estimate fixed for the year 1822, requiring the sum of 1,781,0001. for the payment of wages, and for the ex*.: pence of wear and tear in the Ordnance Department. The rea son why he chiefly called the attention of the House to this subject was,that formerly this vote had passed almost sub silentio. .No remarks had been accustomed to be made upon it, until last year, when the House would recollect he had attempted to awaken the attention of the House to the importance of the subject. The House Would also recollect that in the year 1817 the Noble Lord had stated, that in the Estimates of that year a considerable reduction had taken place, but that that reduction had not been so extensive as it was thought might be effected ; and that therefore each succeeding year would witness a still further reduction. Now he was sorry to find, that so far from a gradual reduction having taken place in each succeeding year, there had, in point of fact, been a continual increase. He called.upon the House, therefore, not to place any confidence in the statements of Ministers, but to judge of them by their actions. Now, in 1817, the Noble Marquis had fixed the sum necessary for the payment of seamen's wages, and for the ex pense of wear and tear in the Ordnance Department, at the sum of 1,556,0001. Since that time there certainly had occurred no reason why the expenditure should be increased. With regard to seamen's wages it might be, perhaps, allowed that no reduction could be expected in that particular. Their wages would necessarily remain nearly the same, because there would always be a greater number of able bodied seamen in time of peace than in time of war. But certainly it might have been an ticipated that in the amount of the Ordnance charges a consider able reduction would have been made. Now, he would ask the House whether that reduction had taken place? On the con trary,did it not appear from the returns on the table, that the es timates fixed for the Ordnance department of this year exceeded by 200,0001. the estimates of 1817. The House would be sur prized when it found that the estimates which it would first be called upon to vote was the sum of 1,781,0001. for the Ordnance Department of this year, whilst the same expense for 1817'had only amounted to 1,576,0001. He would ask them what was the reason why not only no reduction had taken place, but why an increase of 230,0001. had been added to the esti mate ? It was true, that in the year 1817, the lumber of sea men and marines had not been so great as at present. In that year, the number of persons employed in that service had amounted to 19,000 men, the marines numbering 6000, and the seamen 13,000. For reasons which he was unable to divine, the number of marines had since been increased to 8000 men, which added to 13,000 seamen, produced an aggregate of 21,000 men. This number was certainly less, by one thousand, than the amount of last year, but it was 2000 more than had been employed in 1817. He, for one, certainly had expected, that in stead of confining themselves to the standard of 1817, Ministers would have redeemed the pledge which they had given of carry ing into effect reductions considerably below the scale of that year. Instead, however, of that being the case, the expendi ture had now increased to 1,781,0001. He was anxious that the Houie should not think him unreasonable in the oppo sition which he now offered to the motion of the Right Hon ourable Gentleman. But he must say, that after the statement which the Noble Marquis had made in 1817, and after the esti mates of the present year had been increased to between two and 300,0001. more than in 1817, the House would not do its duty were it to vote so Largea sum without knowing precisely how it was to be applied. It was on that ground, therefore, thathe in. tended to venture to propose a resolution to the House, calling for a return of the different items of expence incurred in the Ordnance Department, and the estimates of the wages of the seamen. To satisfy the House that he was not unreasonable in this respect, he would refer them to the Report of the Finance Committee of 1817, where they would find that the Committee had expressed dissatisfaction at theexpenditure of the Ordnance Department, and had called for those returns which he now wished to have before the House. The Marine establishment alone had cost the nation, during the last year, 340,0001. being about one-third more than it had .amounted to during former years of peace. If, then, the, House was now content to vote the sums required without a return of the marines and officers, the effect would be to preclude them from afterwards taking the sense of the House on those items which they might think ex cessive. Why should there be any difference between the man ner of making the returns of the marines and that of making the returns of the military? He knew no reason, except that by the method now pursued, an opportunity was afforded of covering the imposition of charges, which, if a fair return were made, might not be allowed. The very want of a fair return was suf ficient to excite suspicions in his mmd that every thing would not be found as it ought to be. He wi s h e d mor e particularly for the returns of the Marine Department, because he be. lieved that there were five or six sinecures to -be found under it. Let him not be told that those sinecures were intended ,for deserving and meritorious Officers. They might or they might not be given to such men ; but his objection was, that these sinecures cost the country about eighteen guineas a day. He wished, therefore, that the House should know what was the actual charge of each department. For instance- he found that there was a very extensive charge for barracks. un. der that head alone an expense was charged to the country of 120,6801. lie could not imagine how a charge so enormous had been incurred by such an establishment. Surely if the bar racks alone cost the country 120,6801. a year, it was evident either that the barracks were much larger than there was any occasion for, or that the money was expended wastefully and improvidently. In like manner, under the head of contin gencies, there was a charge of 12,7281. The Paymaster, and the Inspector General had also, in the last year, cost the coun try 2,9001. He understood that both those offices were of little importance, but whether they were or not made no dif ference to the strength of his argument, which was, that-the House ought not to vote these sums without knowing exactly how they were to be applied. If the accounts presented re specting the naval expenditure of last year were correct, then to what a state was the naval establishment of England reduced. According to those accounts, the expences of the navy had actual ly amounted to no more than 300,0001., although the sums voted under the head of the civil department of the navy had amount ed to six millions. It was from a wish, therefore, to obtain fur ther information on thatsubject, that he should propose a se cond resolution, the effect of which would be produce a return of the different items of naval expenditure for the year 1821. With regard to the victualling of the navy he thought that if the price of provisions had fallen one half, the expense of victualling ought to be reduced in the same proportion_ He was aware that it would be objected to him that the ex pense of victualling ships on foreign stations must necessarily be greater than, at home. But he would contend, th a t tho se ships if supplied with provisions at the foreign ports where they might happen to beplaced, would be victualled at a much lower price there than at home. For instance, the fleet at the East Indies might be supplied at a much cheaper rate, there than at home. At any rate, the only extra expence would be the ex pence of transports, and a large SUM was annually voted for the transport service. He called upon the House therefore, before it consented to go into a Commitpe, to require the returns re lative to the expence of victualling the ships afloat. Without those different returns, it would not be possible for the House to do its duty. Besides, if the whole proceedings were fair, if nothing was to be apprehended from a minute investigation, why should any disposition exist to keep back the several re turns The,very desire to keep them back stimulated him to demand them. If, therefore, he stayed in that place till ten o'clock the next morning, he would not consent that one shilling should be voted until the different returns were or dered to be made. There was a time for all things, and he could assure the House that no time could be more proper for the exercise of their vigilance than the present. If there ever was a time when the country called upon its Representatives for a scrutiny, into the measures of Government, it was the present. If there ever was a time when the mismanagement of Ministers , required exposition, it was the present. If there ever was a time when the falsified statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (in giving credit for a surplus, of four millions, when, in fact, there had been only a surplus of one million and a half) required dontradiction, that time was surely the present. The House , ought not to rest satisfied with the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. H is next resolution would refer to the charges for "the wear and tear in the Ordnance Department. The House would recollect, in 1817, the Finance Committee had stated that they considered the expense incurred. to ,have been in building ships. He (Mr. Hume) would here allow, that he believed that at no time had the ships in ordinary been in a better condi tion than they were at present. He agreed in the propriety of keeping the ships in ordinary in repair, and he was, there fore glad to find that they were at present in a state of perfect repair. But the amount of eicpence which had been in curred was worthy of the consideration. of the House. Since the year 1816, no less a sum than 17 millions had been expend ed building and repairing ships. Why, for such a sum, he should imagine they might have furnished the. whole world with ships. The Committee of Finance had certainly stated, that for a few years an increase in the expenditure of this department was to be expected, but that after some years a reduction would take place. In this year he found that the reduction in the expence of ship-building had been calculatedat 48,0001.; but in the expences of the wear and tear,_ there had been no. reduction, and hd thought that the public had a right to expect it. Per haps he was not correct in his information, but he was told that though no returns had been made in the estimates for the Ord nance craft, yet that the sum of, 20,0001. had been expended upon them. He bad last year stated, when the expenditure of Woolwich had been before the 'House, that that establishment was kept up in order to serve the voters of Queensborough. Now lie believed that he could spew that six or eight vessels belonging . to the Ordnance craft had been employed for the last two years . in going from Sheerness to Woolwich, and from Woolwich to Sheerness,, in order to accommodate, the Clerks of the Ordnance department in their parties of plea - sure. The Committee 'of Finance had objected to the float ing magazines, and had stated, that after powder had been kept on board those magazines. for a certain number of months, it was not fit for use until' it had been relanded.- and dried. If that statement were true, then he would ask • for what purpose were the floating magazines kept ? This large establishment had been kept up against the recommendation of a Committee, and • if Gentlemen would look to the third Report of the Commitfa i t they would find it proved that the expenditure was useless. Out of ) 130 men who were employed on board those vessels, he believed that 74 were voters of Queenborough. Besides, he could show r that six of the vessels employed by the Ordnance all belonged to voters of Queenborough. He believed also that two other vessels had been lying at Woolwich with Congreve rockets on ; board, at an expense of 18s. a day each, without being moved for 4 years. These statements might, perhaps, be regarded as coming from one who knew nothing of the sea service. Perhaps • he might know little of that service, as a gallant officer (Sir J. Coffin) had told them, but he had travelled a good deal, and he would not, as that Gallant Officer had suggested, go to sea on a r three-legged stool. He wondered that any man could stand up in that House and talk in the manner which that Gallant Officer • had done. With regard to the expense incurred by the manu- I facture of ammunition, the nation were now at peace with all the world, and yet the manufacture of gunpowder was daily ear -1 ried on at an expense to the country of 10 or 12,0001. a-year. 1 He was speaking now of last year, for he had not yet seen 1 the estimate for the present, and he could not, therefore, say what degree of reduction was intended. Of this, however, he was certam, that • if war were now to commence, there was a • sufficient quantity of ammunition in hand to last the nation for • twenty years. This country was essentially, he had been taught, a Civil Government, and her glory depended upon the • preponderance of the Navy; and though he was not disposed to • compare one branch of the service with another, yet he was in clined to give a preference to the Navy as a more legitimate • arm of power. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving the following Amendment " A Return, in detail, of th e manner i n w hi c h t h e 59 3 ,7 7 5 4 I estimated for Wages of Seamen in 1822, is to be expended e distinguishing the Number of each Rank of the Royal Marines,. and the Pay of each Class, and of the whole ;—also the Num • ber of Officers of each Rank, and of men in, the Navy, the Amount of Charge for each Class, and for the whole." • The question was proposed from the Chair, and Mr. CRoKEN rising at the same moment with Sir ISAAC COFFIN, the former ' Gentleman's name was called by an univers a l concurrence of the House. Mr. CROKER would rise with great reluctance to oppose any motions that looked like an inquiry for information, if it could be supposed that'Government had any wish to keep the House in the dark. • But he believed he might say, that out of a million of papers called for by the lion. Gentleman, those now moved for were the .first that had ever been refused. He thought not the slightest reason had been shewn why the papers should be produced. On the contrary,. Ministers had not only a good Parliamentary ground for refusing them, but he might go the length of saying; that they could not be produced altoge ther consistently with the interest or with the safety of the country. He believed the Navy Estimates had been brought forward in nearly the same way for 160 or 170 years, and that among all the fancies that had entered the heads of Members—among all the wishes entertained by individuals, and among all the motives that had ever animated different parties, this was the first time that ever a motion any thing at all like the present had been made in that House. He meant to say that these circumstances proved, at least, that our ances tors, and we ourselves in later times, had seen good reason for treating this part of the public service with peculiar delicacy. He only asked, the House to allow this, and he would then proceed, and pledge himself to disprove every one of the statements of the Hon. Member, and to shew that they were full of the most egregious and extraordinary mistakes • or, to borrow a metaphor from the Hon. Member, as he called it, blunders that any human being could ever have committed.— If he did not do this, he would allow that there was a case for the House to consider whether they would alter the practice which had been observed in all time. He should not follow the Honourable Gentleman into the minuteview which he had taken of the subject, because the House ought not to be led away from the broad principles upon which the question rested. The naval service of the country, as voted by Parlia ment, was placed under three large divisions. The first was that which they were now to consider the fleet afloat, embracing all the men actually embarked, the ships that • had sailed, and those under orders to sail upon services connected with the destinies of the country . He felt that h e c o u ld no t too strongly impress upon the m inds of Members that the motion of the Honourable Gentleman was for an inquiry into the state of this branch, namely, the fleet afloat. The next class was the ordinary Estimates of the Navy, which referred to the Civil Naval Department in E ng l an d alone. The third part was the Extraordinary Estimates, relating to the building of ships, and of work done in the Dock-yards. Now at all times, where the fleet afloat had been treated with the utmost delicacy by Parlia ment, the Ordinary and the Extraordinary Estimates had been laid before it in the most ample detail. The cause of this might readily be found in the difference which existed betiveen the services. • The difference was this ; no danger or inconvenience could arise from making public the state of the Navy in Ener. land. But the greatest possible danger must inevitably result from giving such information as to the state of the fleet afloat to England, and through 'England, 'to the other parts of the world.—(Hear, hear !)—When the Hon. Member spoke of the expense of victualling the Navy, he calculated on the . prices of Leactenhall market, and .upon the markets in the vicinity of London. But an Hon. Friend of his reminded him of the foreign stations. "Oh !" said the' Honourable Mem ber, " send out provisions for the foreign stations." ' bid 'the Honourable .Member mean to say that he under stood the victualling of the Navy so well, that he could victual it for the same expense abroad as at home ? Did he nqt knoW that there would be a difference of expense be tween one station and another ? If, therefore, they were ob liged to account far the application of the Estimates. before hand, it would be necessary to state the extent of force to be sent out to every foreign station. This information never had been disclosed; and the House would ,see the propriety with which it had been withheld. The Honourable Gentleman had. said that he got information from the Government Offices, and that shewed that there was no disposition on tile part of Government to withhold it where it could be safely granted.— The Hon. Member also argued that he ought to have the Papers for which he had moved, because information of a similar character had been given.. to a Select Committee upon a pre vious occasion. But that was no reason, or rather it was an adverse reason, to the granting of the Honourable Mem ber's request. Ile then came to what the Honourable Member had said about the wear and .tear of the Navy. The Hon. Gentleman, however, had found out, that since the year 1817- no less a sum than 1 7,000,0001. had been expended in building ships. This, he said, was enough for all the Navies of the world. Now he (Mr. Croke* would say so too, if the facts were true. But if he could not skew to the Hone Member, and to the House, that neither seventeen nor seven millions had been so expended, he would be ready to grant the informa• tion which the Hon. Member desired.—(Cheers !)—The Hon. Member really obliged him to recur to his metaphor of blun ders—or nonsense he believed it was, for his statements con tained nothing else.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. Member had mistaken stone for wood,—(Laughter)—land for water, and storehouses for ships.—(Continued. laughter.)—Nay, he had mistaken the building of ships for the improvements that had been carried on at Sheerness ! He would now tell the House why he believed the Honourable Member to have done this. He found that the works at Sheerness, he ex pences of the Dock Yards, the building of ships, and the expenses of the Plymouth Breakwater, during the period al luded to, came to about the sum stated by the. Hon. Member.-- (Hear, hear, hear I)—He happened to have in his hand, by mere chance, the accounts of the ship-building expenses.for the verg period which the Hon. Member had chosen for making his. calculations, and with the permission of the House he would read them, and then ask if they would overturn the. practice of a century and a half, upon the strength of such statements. The sum voted in 1817, for the building and repairing ships, wa5'1,391,0001. Mr. HUME said 1 600 0001. Mr. CItOKER-.-" I have it here from the Journals." The- Hon. IVleuaber then read from the Journals, that in the year 1817, the grand total for ships was 1,391,2371.—(Cheer5.)-- For 1818, the. grand total was 1,130,0001. . For 1819,- 1,444,0001. For 1840, 1,148,0001. For MI, 1,094,0001_ He knew it was difficult fur Gentlemen to retain numbers in their heads, by merely having them announced. But they would bear in mind that in no. one of the fire years had the sum amounted to two millions. Yet, in that period, the Ho nottrable Gentleman did not hesitate to say that the expenses for ships amounted to 17,000,0001—(Loud cheers).—Aiter all the charges and statements, however, the " noble was come to ninepence." The 'total of this expense, instead of being 17,000,0001. was 5,900,0001.—(L0ud cheering).—After all this misrepresentation about the wear and tear, the Hon. Gentl eman got up to dictate to the House of Commons what it should do, and expressed a determination to keep the Speaker' in the Chair until ten o'clock in the morning, unless he pro cured the information which he sought. If he meant to wait' for such information as would enlighten his misunderstand— ing, he might have to wait erealonger than that.,--(A laugh'.) The Honourable Member said, he did not misunderstand the wear and tear—or the tear and wear, as he called it. Per haps this confusion of words created the confusion of under standing, and gave rise to the Hon.. Gentleman's blunders and mistatements,—(Loud. laughter.)—The Hon. Member (Mr. Croker) here alluded to some interruptions which came from the other side. He could easily conceive the difficulty with which the ,Hon. Gentleman waited until he had done'' , when he remembered that he (Mr. Croker) could scarcely contain himself while the Hon. Gentleman was making his statements. The Hon. Member had said that 'the wear and tear was created .in going up to. town, in yacht . sailing, awnings upon deck for dances, and in services of that nature.. He would tell him, that during the last season there had been more wear arid tear of human labour in the Channel than at almost any period during the war,—(Hear, bear? I