The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-03 00:00:00

rververi his observations till the C ommittee went i-to the inquiry which . was proposed. What had been said about. Exchange might be perfectly true, when the Exchange between the two Countries was real ; bur it was well known that there was a-nomi nal as well as a real Exchange, and that ought al ways to be borne in mind when this subjeft was dis cussed. With regard to the distress- that prevailed in Ireland, 00 account of the state of 'the circulation, he was sure no man who had not been in that country could form a just conception of it from any descrip. tion, however accurate. There was not to he found in the country parts of Ireland, except in the North, any;description of coin whatsoever, except some very bad copper ; silver o r g old there were none-. But as something must be used for circulation, there were many persons who, without any capital whatsoever, set up a kind of banking shops, and issued Notes of one shilling , of six p ence, and a Note for : three shillings and sixpence was consider. ed as a very large one. The difficulties and it - icon. venirnce which (his occasioned to the higher classes of society were very great indeed, but infinitely more so to the lower classes. No longer ago than last Saturday, be paid in Dublin 44. premium for guineas to pay his exoences to London, and if he had bought Beek ofEngland Paper the premium would have been something more. Under these cir cumstances he did not conceive that there could he any preliminaryobjeetion to the appointment of the Com mittee which had been moved for, which he thought likely to produce the most beneficial effeas. Mr. CURRY said he rose by no means to offer the smallest opposition to the Motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman, a Motion, the principle of.. which had already been acceded to by some of his friends round him. -He did not however wish to be understood as meaning to express any convic tion that it vv,old produce any .praaical benefit, which would remedy the evil which was com plained of. If the inquiry would be produaive of any beneficial consequences, it would give him the roost sinceie satisfaElion, and even if it should fail of the desired end, it might have this eifeft, that it would prove to the Public the troth of the opinion which had been delivered by the best in. formed men upon this subjed, viz. that for the evil of Exchange there was no remedy in the power of Par liament. It would set the public mind at rest upon the subjea, and the House would have discharged its duty with attention and with due regard to Ire. land. Every body would be satisfied with the degree of alleviation if not of temedy which this might produce, or they would be convinced, after fall in. query, t h at it was not possible to do any thing upon the subjett. With regard to the circulation of Ire.. land, the House would bear to recolleCtion that this subjea had not escaped .the attention of Ministers. It had been repeatedly adverted to in the last Session, aid in the Session before. In the last Session an Aa was passed to prohibit the circt= lation of what was celled silver Notes in Ireland, from the tst of January, 1804. The propriety of that Aa was at that tale doubted, and as many Irish Members' were prevented from attending Par iiiment by their military duties, an Aft was 'passed the. commencement of :this - Session to suspend the Operation of that AU tor am :. Feared that the statement of the Right'Hon. Gentle man, though :rue, had not escaped the attention of 'His Majesty's Ministers, With regard to the state of Exchange between Great Britain and Ireland, when it appeared, that the balance of Exchange was in favour of Iceland in those parts of that Country where gold was in circulation, and that it was against Dublin where there was only Paper in cir. culation, the quantity of Paper issued must he looked upon as one of the causes of the depreciation of Paper. But beside this, there was, he was convinced, t t very considerable degree of management in the subject of Exchange. When the Treasury of Ireland ceased to draw upon this Country for the amount of the Loan, it was observable that the Exchange rose considerably in four or five days.. There were vita. 'lent fluctuations of two, three, and 'even four per . cent. He had, therefore, na doubt but that a very considerable degree of management .was used in creating these violent fluauatiens of Exchange, which were so advantageous to individuals. With regard to what had been said on..the suhjea of remittances, there was ,one species of remittance to Ireland which had not been alluded to. — The Loan remitted from this Country to Ireland certainly affeCted the immediate balance ; but the fad was that. the expenditure in Ireland was greater than its contribution to the joint expenditure of the United Kingdom. The consequence of that was, • that very considerable sums were remitted to that C oun try, and that 'vas one reason 'why Ireland bad been better able to go on than she. otherwise would have done. There was one subjed ad verted to by the Right Honourable Gentleman who had made the motion, upon which he could by no means agree with him. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in stating the balance of .trade to be against Ireland, had argued entirely upon what was called the official value, but it was perfectly well known that the official value was verp considerably below the real value. It was certainly true, that it: Gentlemen were guided by the official value of the Exports, the balance of trade. would appear to be against Ireland, whereas if they looked to the real value of the article exported, which certainly was the only true way of knowing whether the balance was for or against a Coun try, the balance : would appear to be in favour of Ireland —To illustrate this . point, he would men. tion one or two instances. It 'was perfectly well known that the second gieat article of export from Ireland was provisions. The barrel of beef ex. ported from Ireland was valued in the official books at 16s. per hundred weight ; whereas in fart the real value, that is to say, thed even real price at which it ato was exported was 2 5 , 30, an shillings per cwt. In estimating the amount of the exports of a Country it was necessary to look to the real value, because that was the amount of the money that came into the Country as the price of the article. With regard to pork, which was perfeftly well known to be another great article of export from Ireland, the official value was nineteen shillings per cwt. whereas the real price at which it was exported was thirty, thirty-three, and even sometimes-up to sixty-fivt shillings per cwt. Butter, which was another gnat article of export, was stated according to official value at 42‘. per Cwt. whereas in potato!' fad it was exported at 70-80, and•even so high as 112 per Cwt. It was therefore a very unfair means of ascertaining the trade of a country to look mere: ly to official value. It was true that the real value of the Imports was greater than the offici-11 retitle, but not in so great a degree as in the Exports. Therefore Ireland was by uo means in the desperate situation which had been represented by some Gentlemen. However, as he had stated before, he should not op. pose the Motion, and it would give him the most lively satisfaaion if it produced any beneficial ef- leas. Mr. FOSTER said, that the observations which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made as to the dif ference between the real and the official value of the Exports did not apply, because in the calculation he had made he had taken the official value both of Imports and Exports. He knew very well that there was a great difference between real and offi. cial value, because the cattle that were exported from Ireland to England, were valued in Ire. land at t al. a head, but when they came to Eng land their official value was fixed at 61. so that it might he supposed they lust one half of their value by sea-sickness. Mr. CORRY said, he had before stated, that al. though there was a difference between the real acid the official value of Imports, it was by no means so great as the d:1 fence between the real and the offi cial value of the Exports. Lord HENRY PE'T'TY said, he felt great sa tisfaawn .that the Right Hon. Gentleman had .brought forward his Motion, and he was also gra titled at the very candid manner in which Ministers had declared that it was not their intention to op pose the Motion. But he wished to state an evil of very great magnitude, which was one which was under the immediate eye of Ministers, and which they might remedy 'by a single order. —There was not, he believed, any doubt but that the excess in the issue of Private Bank Paper in Ireland had very much contributed to the bad state of that country. He certainly did not mean to propose, nor should he wish to adopt any violent measure to check the circulation of the Private Bank Paper ; but , o n the o ther hand, there was no reason why it should be' encou raged and forced into circulation. He understood, from very good authority, that one of the great means by which private Bank Paper in Ireland had been forced into circulation was, that it was used principally in the payment of the Army and the Yeomanry of that country. He was very much in. dined to believe that the-re was a corrupt under 'standing between some of the Army Agents in that country and the private Bankers. Though he did not wish to over-rate the importance of this prac. 'tice, it certainly was a very great evil.—With re gard to the Motion before the House, he by no means agreed with those who thought that no good consequences could result from it, because, at-all events, it would be the means of asc-rtaining a number of fans which would afford the fairest chance of enabling Parliament to apply a remedy to this evil. Lord C ASTL ERE AcH said o that he did not .un- Aararaast hi. Right Hon. Friend - to say, that he ex petted no.' advantage from the appointment of thts Committee, ; he had Only stated, that he did not at present see any remedy that .cOuld be proposed— There appeared a disposition among some Gentle men to take it for granted, that the high stare of the Exchange against Ireland arose from the depre. ciation -of Paper ; now he hoped that Gentlemen would not make up their minds upon.these points, and take them . for granted before the inquiry took place. He was inclined to entertain a very differ points ; but he thought as cot opinion upon these an inquiry was to be instituted, Gentlemen-should suspend their judgments until the tans were ascer tained, and that no point should be considered as conceded either on the one side or the other. Mr. DICK said, he did not think that any g oo d could arise from the appointment of this Commit. tee. There seemed to him to be a kind' of pre judice entertained against the Bank of Ireland, which he was sure was very ill-founded.' The Di rectors of the Bank of Ireland had been attacked both in and out of that House : he had seen a Pamph let, written by a Noble Lord, not a Member of that House, which contained a most violent, un warrantable, and unsuccessful attack upon that most respeltable body of men, and the ground of attack was the great issue of Paper; bin there were many circumstances which occurred since the year 1797, when the Restriction was laid on, which completely justified the Bank of Ireland in increasing their issue of Paper, and which indeed rendered it absolutely necessary. He understood that a Deputation of Merchants of Ireland had waited upon the Right lion. Gentleman who made the Motion, with a view of consulting him upon this subjea, and that the Answer they received was, that it was-'a subject upon which no Legislative measure could be pro. du of any'tentedy for-the evils He wished to know if that was the faft.- • SirlollN NEWPORT said, he did not see how any Legislative measure could affect -the state of the Exchange between the two Countries, any more than it could between Great Britain and Hamburgh, or Cadiz. With regard to what had been said about the Manufacturers of the North of Ireland carrying on their business entirely in gold, he was ready to admit they sustained considerable injury from it ; but if they did, it was an evil of their own creation—lf they wanted that confidence in the Paper of their Country •which-all the test of their Countrymen felt, if they would only deal upon gold, when that had ceased to be the medium of circulation both in that Country and in this, the evil of which they complained was certainly o ne of their own creation. Suppose the County of York, or any other great manufaauring s County in Eng ' land, should determine to transaa no business ex. cept in gold, when Paper was the medium of circu. lation through the rest of the kingdom, they must necessarily very soon feel the same inconvenience that was felt in the North of Ireland. He then ad verted to the subjeft of the Country Bankers in Ireland, and said, some means ought to be taken- to prevent men setting. up as Bankers, without first proving that they had some capital which entitled them to confidence. Lord A. BAMILTON rose, merely to advert - to What bail ben said about the Pamphlet publlshect by '. a Noble. Lord, which he contenth!d, did not cuntain any thing violent or unwarrantable; on the contrary, -in his opinion, all the reasoning was fair, anti found. ed upon the clearest fads. Mr. ALEXANDER said, he hoped the House 1. would go into the proposed inquiry. He wibbed that there was a uniform medium of Circulation in both Countries, whether it was Of gold or of paper. He contended, that there was no ground for aeiy charge upon the Bank of Ireland, the- Diredors :of which afted from the best motives; and if there was any inconvenience, it arose from the issue of their Paper being too small instead of being too large. The fact was, that the issue of their Paper h:rd been in tercepted by an extraordinary degree of Agency on the part of the Private Banks. Mr. FOX defended the Pamphlet which' had been published by his Noble Friend, and said, he was sure that nothing would give his Isioble Friend more pleasure than to have his opinions closely investi gated. With regard to the general . question, he thought the House ought to go. into the Committect and he had no doubt but their inquiries would be roduaive of much good. It had been said that a Legislative measure could not alter the exchange between this Country aad. foreign Nations, but the fad was, that about 32 years ago, when the ex change between this Country and Hamburg , was against this Country, on account of the bad state of our coinage, Parliament had, by reforming the state of the coinage, turned the rate of exchange in favour of this Country. Mr. Drcx explained. After a few words from Mr. DENT the motion was agreed to, and a Comthittee appointed, amongst whom are the following Members: — Mr. Foster, Lord A. Hamilton, Lord, Henry Petty, Mr. Pitt,' Mr. Fox, Mr. Grey, Mr. Rose, Mr. Canning, Sir William Pulteney, Sir john Newport, Mr. j..C._ Beresford, Mr. Sheridan, and Mr. Brogden ; live to ,be a quorum. IRISH REVENUE. Mr. CORRY said that an order of yesterday for a Committee of the whole House on the Irish Re.' venue Afts had dropped in consequence olthere not being a sufficient number of Members to proceed to a Ballot, but he trusted there could be no objec. tion to the House now voting itself into a Committee on the said Mts. It was his intention to propose in the Committee the renewal of the Irish Duties, and as they would expire on the 25th of March, he trusted he should not be considered as too rapid in pressing the subjeCt. 11IS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION. Mr. GREY said, he did not rise to oppose the MOtion, but to put a questioil relative to a subjeCt - which deeply affected the Public, a question which he was impelled to put . hy the sense he entertained of his public duty. Declarations had been- made in that House and in other places respecting the state of- His Majesty's Health, which though at the first iriew seemed calculated to give satisfaction to the Public, had yet only tended in their effea to in crease the anxiety, doubt, and alarm which had prevailed upon the suhjeti. What he rose at pre sent for, was to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (theCamictLLott of the EXOiEQUER) for a pre cise explanation of the expressions he' had used on a forrnci occasion, in order to prevent any doubt from existing in the public mind, as it must he the wish Of every one that any such doubts should be entirely done away. The words used on a former occa6on by the Right Hon; Gentleman, he understood to be " that there was not now any necessary suspension of the personal exercise of the Royal Authority.!' He wished to know whether the Right' Hon. Gentleman meant to state that the personal exercise of the Royal Authority was at this moment corn plete. Tn prevent ambiguity he wished to'under stand precisely, whether Hts MAJESTY was not now prevented by indispoSition from attending to public business, and that the personal exercise of the Ro y al Authority was not thereby prevented ? l^ie h o ped the Right Hon. Gent. would give an explicit answer, and would also explicitly state whether his know ledge was derived from a personal access to ,His Majesty, or from the information of all the'Physi cians now attending upon His Majesty. He trusted he should receive an explicit answer, to a question in the way of which no considerations of - delicacy ought to stand, an answer which was expeaecl by an anxious' and affectionate people. It was his duty to put such a question, in order that the House might know whether, they ought now to prcceed to public business; or whether in so doing they were not violating the first principles of the'Constitution. Whatever the answer might be,' he should not fur ther interrupt the business of the day, but ilk was not satisfatiory, he should think it his duty to bring the subjed before the House in another shape. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' said, whether the question put by the Hon. Gentle. man, was one which was likely to create a feeling of ie. pet amongst an affectionate and loyal People, he would not now decide: It was his wish on a for_ met occasion to put the House in poSsession of the most explicit information upon this subjed. He then stated what the Hon. Gentlemen had men tiOned. To that statement he begged leave to refer the Hon. Gentleman. and the House, with this ad. dition, that he bad not had personal access to His . Majesty, but that a better criterion had been (forded him, (whereon he formed that opinion, he meant the concurring sentiments of all the five Physicians at. tending His Majesty. Mr. GREY said, that if things continued in the state they were at present, he should think it his duty to submit a Motion to the House 'upon this subjea next week. The question was then put, for the House to re,, solve itself into a Committee on the Irish Ads. Mr. PITT wished to know whether the business would , take up a great deal of time ; he submitted whether it would not be better to postpone it. in order to give way to another measure of consider, able importance, relating to the National. Defence. Mr. CO RRY said, it was necessary to lose no time in voting the Irish Duties, as they would ex pire on, the zsth. If,. however, it was the pleasure of. the House that he should merely propose the schedule,lte should content himself with that, la ith . an understanding that the Report should be made to ,. morrow. • It was at length agreed, that the Resolution; should be proposed only proprina;, which was done its thc Committee, and the House having, resum ed orro w. the Rerott . - ts ordered to be received to - m . The House resolved itself into a CommitW the MutiO Siii. Report to-morrow. Me SPEAKER vir irro informed the House that he. would be in the House at three o'clock to.m and take ,the Chair as soon as he was ena ble(l to d° so by a su f f i cient number of Members bein g p res ent' VOLUNTEERS. Mr. Secretary YORKE moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Commit", tee on the Volunteer Bi ll . As there were seer'''. Clai4es, to prop gg ose, he su es ted that it wo uld be better to debate the principle of the Bill on the Re' • port. The House having resolved itself into a Co 3l' mir tee, - Mr. Secretary YoRKE proposed some Amenclineot i; r in the body of the Bill, the first of which went to cone" fine the repeal of former Laws to those relating to ' lie , Ye l omanty and Volunteer Corps of Great Britain, l it being thought better, he said, to leave the Lawi relating to the Yeomany and Volunteer cow' i Ireland as they stood. He also proposed to insets some words to render the Fines anfl Penalties clod former Ads recoverable. His next Arneedffler: went to authorise the continuance of the Corr 41°. r , in existence, unless His Majesty should pleasefts . • discontinue the services of any Corps, or par' L Corps, ,by an order through the Secretary of StaC.' These ,Amendments were severally agreed '"' a ' I Sir IVM. YOUNG then rose to propose an Am en . ( - ! 'Dent in the second Clause, The House, lie s"' i., `; I must be aware that the War was likely to be rilrr; ' duration, and it her fore became necessary 0 '' ) ,,fi ) C towards a permanent system of defence. He Ow * t. that the Exemptions, tended to withdraw froil l - , c e force of the Ceuntry a great proportion of W I ! 4 pulation. With respeCt to these he wishe d ro`',"Aje ' the line between those Volunteers who had orieila,: ly come forward on the puteit principles of Pe rt r s - rii tism, and those who lent afterwards co me fr'''''cit. on ly to avoid the compulsory provisions of t br , i 9e fence A. He wished only to extern; the P Y' h e 'i l les ~ tions to those Corps who had been accepted Rd is previous to the 27;h -of July r S° s '' o or which means they would only attach uf° e o ur too.coo men, whilst zi - 0,000 of the floWer "'' cote youth would be brought back again into t he g e ,dt ral force of the country. fie 'thought 111(1 tlcsi to do ail they could to render this great rrlae lll . l ,, O se the population of the country a s effective 35 t ai r m st ole, and therefore to strike out from the e%c''i'cif lions all those who had no idea at the tie of O, I . coming forward of any exemption at a ll. lie e es e chided by moving an Amendment, for the Pu r r ho l 10 of confining the exemptions t o those Corps 0. , been aeceoted previous to the 27th of July i9°3 ;bet ' Mr. Pal' said, he thought it itupooil;le e i v i they could, with any oegree of eolliiatenclit : reC ,le; t this Amendment. They kid e stiblieked tlitei r , 4 ,, e eri ; that exemptions should be giver+, to all live v"%entr. ' to whom this had been let Li our as an i"" c % e r of on condition of their raereisieg a certei* n u : ll ' a d days ; they had complied with ()Ili c onelitO n h a oh . this amendment would certainly he a Wadi c' tarts with them. Parliament had bound iteelf li ", e e instante by an express Statute, and not* th e 4o: ‘ , advised to 'recall. it, and .to make the eNer' ‘ ' t r not mrely in favour of he original Corpsi, ) ,‘lt ti , favour of all those who had since been edmiti.',,-110 fill up vacancies, ' by which means those ' vr T,' tO, earned their exemptions by complying wito,etfir reouisiteconditions, were to be deprived "' c . c re whilst others who had come recently jot° ° e ssfe were to becime fully entitled to them. -,.() eel' that because Parliameot had thought prol:e r , s ,, u ,Vl Y out an inducement to persons to come bread ed se° lunteers, that therefoeeit ought to be tak.en el ' lOC a sort cif reasoning he could not cempreben'tveric ' could he agree that those latter Corps had 00 po yi . in coming forward in the defence of their C"t`,,,itill' they had shewn their zeal in coming fortear 3 e lfeJ' ' tarily rat her than suffer themselves t o he cotof rocet and he could not comprehend why the incliner beet held out by Parliament to excite them t"' r,. (1 1 d' e l: which it was wished they should do, and wh'''' pia' I . had done, should now be taken away.. The re,' ,:t 0 ir of the Hon. Baronet appeared to him lilee'''' s ' i t se as inapplicable as the proposed regulatioot a j scu l l ' posed, that. all the 'Volunteer Corps accer'ter ;fie 4 quent to the 27th of July rBo3,were offetedl;o,l Defence Ad, whereas several offers had l ' — , - J 1 e6 1.1 ,`,, previous to that period, which remained' ti '' ?ell": upon in consequence of that Act being beO rc o e leP''; ment. The line attempted to be drawn by the We Baronet, although not intended ,by him, ''''' s elt e ; 4 the effeft of disbanding all the Volunteer-00's; 8o or octopoo of the old Corps. He 4 1 , 3 ( I' lie.` l/ :,,,1 Gentlemen to run away with. an idea 01 ", i ' e et P e l friendly to exemptions, but if after Pirli''"i sli' :4l t i l f given the exemptions by a -specific AttL'''''' d i e then take them away in the manner rf 0 :; ) e -S iu p the Hon.. Bar net from three fourths of -, avid lunteers, it Must necessarily be considereu ' l ig ht ti e Jiamentary discouragement. Whatever s ni , s eroi o f the opinion entertained of the Volunteer , 57 , s r A d e disband it now would be an 'aft of mt ri--5 01 ,1 /1 ' he flattered himself that the Committe e . : tee dv el l ; agree to the proposed amendment. Mr. If IND Il AM addressed the Corn inl ," a e l the order and course of debate. H e t " - rols i jo would be the better wa y to rece i v e all th e e.P it ia Y ( , .clanses and amendments, and to print the . . lsl th e P eA ,, , state, wheu they might he enabled to se e rite,, ings of each . upon the other, and thereby b e wa ell' ,P i e ter enabled to press w ea r was st ill f urt her or li) of He thonght his Right Honourable Frien d ° h i n d i l ' i e misunderstood his Honourable Friend le t , e de'Oi (Sir William Young) as it never W as ' ll te er s A give the exemptions to the class of V °l° of (° - 1 1' . hided to _by his Honourable Friend ; bY P e r il ''' l r '' ‘‘ . the amendment his Honourable'Friend 1 141 ~ ec ed - to take away from them what in fac t i'vt' o tll • C given to them. fiv e c O v Mr. FULLER said a few words re l 3. r fig ( l s for $ i i i n t e i o it nv a e n n il l.i' A nc r e n ' l o y € its neighbourhood where the f3allor t° ° e 5 0 0 ,11c Mr. Sccr e t fir] YONKE said, . th c : + 4 ° . 6 te reh ; 1 i at ,i, o f cute i t e r 5 1 e l i r tl y g e S ir u o b t s n t i t t u i, t e e (.1 . ;, 0001 , :c or ei to p ivi rt: l v i i i s i i a on o o r f A t 1: : i n t y k i ( r ) l i d Rie%trivie,..Bilil_le cde i rros o i oft the propriety or• expediency of . the \ OW OP - ' l ll . W 1 149 0 1 'P by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr• - , 010 accepting every Clause and Ainendaiell „/A i