The Sun. — London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

ttexpect that impartial justice should be done when such con. «shirt "was observed. - Mr. W. COURTENAY moved, " That Mr. Hope having acknowledged himself to be the author of the said letter, is guilty ofa breach of the privileges of this House." Sir F. lURDETT continued to entertain the opinion which he had always expressed as to the great danger which existed in this assumption of power by the House of Commons. He had never yet heard of any thing to do away with the strong constitutional objections which :he saw .opposed to such acts. In the present .case he could not see how it was possible to ex ercise the power which the House claimed without allowing that every man in the country was to be subjected to whatever . another might choose to say- of him in that House without re plying to it, or even to the mistakes of those who gave their debates t.O the public, or still more the most malignant repre sentations which persons might think proper to make. lie begged to ask whether such a power would be allowed to the Crown as that claimed by Parliament, in cases which it might, choose to declare breaches of privilege ? But he could not see how the case now before them was a breach of any part of the privileges which they claimed. The party stated that a report of a speech had, appeared which traduced and injured his cha racter, and consequently proceeded to declare such a report to be false. If this was a breach of prix ilege they were suffering them -to be committed every tiky, and no man was - safe who referred to any thing that was said or done in Parliament.—(Hear !)--. f any one were to apply directly to a Member to call him to .account for any thing which he might have done in the dis. • charge of his duty, and he brought the matter before the House, then he confessed he should see a justifiable groutid interference. The original intention of guarding Pt.enament with privileges, was to provide them a shield agailest the power of the Crown in the free discharge of their uuty but not to -.arm them with a sword against their fellow-subjects. The power which they claimed was in itself an anomaly ; for they proceeded to inflict imprisonment, yet they did not presume to - resort to the minor punishment of fine. The Gentleman who 'bad been before the House said l that the statements made against him were untrue. In that case he had a right to complain of his friends who , !lad prevented inquiry, where his innocence, and the falsellOed of the charges, might have been proved. His Honourable and Learned Friend, as lie thought, had brought forward the affair" in the most unex ceptionable, as well as in the most able, manner. It ap peared to him, that a breach of privilege in such matters as these would consist of an intention of committing, or of forcing others to commit, violence. He did not really think, that there hid been a breach of the privileges, even such as the House assumed its privileges to be. The power in question was such as the law did not allow to the King; and it therefore, -was most unbecoming . in the House to assume it to itself.— This consideration was more obvious when it was remem bered that some of those who sat in that House were proprie. tars of their own seats and the nominees of others. Many of the privileges claimed by that House, he objected to ; and to no one more than that which gave its Members exemption from personal arrest. This might be a very proper privilege when Parliaments were of short duration, and when they sat for only about forty days ; but at present this privilege was -nothing more than a protection to the dishonest against the • payment! of their debts. And yet it was altogether inconsist -ent ; for according to the legal provisions, a Member ought not to I be in debt at all; as he was obliged on taking his seat to swear to the, possession of his qualification in landed pro perty, clear of all incumbrance, which' meant virtually that tie was not in debt. On the whole he should decidedly object to the exercise of the power claimed, as it now was, by the House. In thus deciding he did not look at the person, but at the principle, and the object which the House appeared to have in view. It followed, therefore, that he should vote _against any motion personally affecting the Gentleman who had just left the bar, and he should certainly take the sense of the House upon such a motion. Mr. S. WORTLEY agreed with the Hon. Baronet, that the breach of privilege, if any, had been caused by the fault of the House itself. It suffered its debates to be reported, and there fore ought not to expect that every person commented upon in -those debates should sit down quietly under imputations which might be cast upon him. There can be no doubt that the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman who had been alluded to (Mr. Abercromby) had brought forward his motion in a fair and proper manner; but if that Hon. and Learned Member had been misinformed, it would be unjust to deprive a person re •ferred to by the Hon. and Learned Member, of the right to defend himself. He therefore should also vote with the Hon. Baronet against any motion having the punishment of Mr. .Hope for its object. Mr. CANNING said his opinion on the present subject might be stated in a very few words. It appeared that the Reuse had already decided the paragraph in question to be a breach of privilege. He was not present at the debate on•that subject, and it was now too late for him to give an opinion upon , it. The question now before the House was merely whether the Gentleman who had left the Bar was the individual who had committed that breach , of privilege He should vote for the prcaent motion, because it affirmed that proposition ; but he end not say that he was prepared to concur in any vote which went to impose any, even the slightest, punishment upon Mr. Hope. He should vote for the motion, because it embraced matter of fact. Mr. COURTENAY said, that as he conceived the present -motion merely cousequential upon that which had been agreed to by the House on a former evening, he had not thought it ueccssary to state what was the ultimate course he intended to ;•--subtnit to the consideration of the House. - As this hail been, lowever, somewhat inconveniently anticipated, he would, with the permission of the House, state the nature of the .motion with which he intended to follow up the present, should it be agreed to by the House.---(lt was here suggested to the Hon. and Learned Member that the present motion might be at once disposed of.l The SPEAKER then put the question, which was agreed to without a division. Mr. COURTENAY resumed. He was glad he could now -proceed according to the ruleS of the House. He thought that if ever there was an occasion in which all party feeling should be subdued, it was the present. Ile disclaimed it himself ; and he therefore should Rome the symptoms of approbation which had been shewn on the examination of Mr. Hope merely to say, that he did not see the propriety of them. When he had first brought this subject under the consideration of the House, he conceived that the ulterior disposal of it would depend very much on the conduct of the Gentleman who was to appear at the bar. !Id (Mr. C.) was perfectly ready to give the language of that Gentleman every consideration it deserved. Indeed his principal object throughout had been to prevent any breach • of the peace, which it was to be feared would grow out of -that which now appeared to be mutual misapprehension ; and he wished to accomplish this object with the least possible oppression towards the individual concerned. If lie had suc ceeded in this, his purpose was fully answered. He trusted the result of the question would have the effect of smoothing down much of irritation which had taken place, and would show that the privileges of that House were essentially neces vary to the protection of the people. It appeared that Mr. Hope had thought it necessary to defend his character against that which he conceived to be an attack upon it in the speech of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Abercromby.) He (Mr. • C.) would not advert to the language of either the speech or the pamphlet- He thought it more prudent to refrain from doing so ; and he trusted Hon. Members would see the propriety of that forbearance, and follow his example. He thought, how ever, it would be unfair to assume that Mr. Hope intended to attack the privileges of the House. His object appeared to be merely to defend hieeeelf. As he (Mr. C.) was perfectly aware that-there existed a strong feeling upon this subject which did not generally lead to a sound conclusion, he had not until that evening stated to any one what was the motion he intended . to make. He now conceived that every thing necessary to be done would be done, by the adoption of the- Resolution he' should have the honour of submitting to the consideration of . the House. It did not impose any personal punishment, while, in -his opinion, it maintained the privileges of Parliament. He therefore moyed a Resolution, " That Mr. Speaker do *communicate the said resolution to the said Mr. John Hope, Land inform him that, under .all the circumstances, and Con sidering the explanation he has given at the• Bar, thii House does not feel it ;elf called upon to proceed any further in this -.matter." Sir ROBERT WILSON said; that this Resolution would .not accomplish the object of the Hon and Learned Member. The substance of the case was, that an Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Abercromby) had submitted a Motion to the House, calling for an Inquiry into the conduct of a Learned Lord, and in the course of his statement in support of that ...Motion, had spoken that which gave offence to Mr. Hope, who was himself also, in some measure, accused. Mr. Hope upon -this took a course of all others most likely --to provoke the • . Honourable and Learned Member to take another, which was sufficiently understood. Now, it was really neces esary • to protect Members in the discharge of -their Parlia -mental"- duty. There 'were many Gentlemen in that House of great talent and eloquence who did not choose to play the parts of gladiators, or to fight their way - out of the quarrels in which they . might be engaged by those who took of ..fence at their speeches in Parliament. He thought the House ewes bound ete .prevent any personal consequences taking place. Sir R: FERGUSSON said he had no wish to keep up any irritation which:unfortunately existed ; but the respect he bore ,• to an excellent friend who was absent (Mr. Stuart), compelled ernim to notice n veragraph -Mr. Hope's pamphlet of a most libellous nature, reflecting on Mr. S. It was that which in troduced the expression, describing Mr. S. as " the heartless ;Ruffian who sought revenge by means (Allis minions, whom lie ordered to bind the arms of his victim." This assertion re . -,4ecting Mr. Stuart, ,he (Sir R..) declared- in • leis place in Par.- liament, to be one of the most malicious falsehoods that had ever disgraced the press. Mr. Hope, when he introduced this, must have been aware that the fact in question had been de ified by Mr. Stuart. Ile (Sir R.) had thought it necessary to notice this, lest an impression should go abroad unfavourable to a gentleman who was respected by all who knew him. Mr. BROUGHA:II said no one was more anxious than he was to find as speedily as possible ;way to terminate these proceedings, provided that going in that way he could dis charge his luty towards the public and the individual con cerned. Not that he doubted that the paragraph.in question. was e ss breach of privilege—not that he thought that breach was of tffe mild nature attributed to it, as it seemed, by some Mem bers of the House, and by Mr. Hope himself, who had called ' it a technical breach ; or that he was satisfied with what had been called the explanation of Mr. Hope. For no one of these reasons could he think that they were dealing with a case si milar to that of a mere report of the debates, or a mere refe rence to the debates, or a mere comment upon them. In either of these cases the slightest expression of apology, it was well k - nowef, would be ..considered amply sufficient.— ,But, in the present instance, it became• necessary for the House to inquire- whether more had not been committed than any thing which could have been in either of the cases he had mentioned. It appeared that Mr. Hope thought him self injured ; unjustly accused ; and under this feeling he sat down to write his defence. Now he (Mr. brougham) did not wish nicely to weigh the eXpressions which'a man might make use of under these circumstances, or too severely to visit Mr. •tlope's miseenduct ; for it would be squeamishness and affec tation to say that he lied not been guilty of misconduct. The investigation into the whole matter out of which the breach of privilege arose, had, as yet, only begun. Mr. Hope himself might be considered as still on his trial : it was therefore pain ful to animadvert upon him. But what, in point of fact, had he done ? Without endeavouring to ascertain the exact de gree of Mr. Hope's offence, it was his (Dlr. B.'s) decided opi nion, that the offence was committed in no ordinary form ; and that it was not a technical, but a substantial violation of the privileges of the House. Wares not a mere complaint of news paper report,• it was a direct attack on a Member for that which he had said in the course of a speech, as remarkable for its temper as it was for its distinguished ability. There were many personal attacks in that House, which would be a breach 'of privilege if made out of it ; but the words used in this "pamphlet were such as no one, even in that House, could re peat to a Member. To charge a Member with malignant, un just, or even unfair motives, was a breach of the privileges of that House, yet his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Abet cromby) had been distinctly charged with doing that, of the unfairness of which he was conscious at the time he did it. Was this even allowed to be said in that House without a re primand ? His Hon. and Learned Friend was charged also with doing this " to serve the views of his political associates out of doors." Were persona out of doors to have larger authority than those in it ? He rootight the House would confound offences which were 'perfectly diStinct, if they treated this as a mere illusion. The question, however, was, how to deal with it ? His Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Courtenay) proposed to pass it over on account of the explanation, as lie called it, which had been given at the bar. With every disposition to get out of the difhculty s lie (Mr. B.) could not admit that Mr. Hope had at all mitigated his offence. There was but one expression to be used at the bar for the purpose of softening the consequence of the displeasure of the House, and that expression had not fal len from Mr. Hope. He (Mr . B.) appealed to the experience of those who were most conversant with the history of that House, whether it had ever allowed a person who had committed a breach of privilege, to escape on a mere explanation ? But, after all, he should like to know, in what part of Mr. Hope's address the explanation consisted. Mr. Hope had spoken of his irritated feelings. No man was more .accessible 'to an ap peal of this description than lie was.—(A laugh.):—But there ' were two meanings which might be put upon Mr. Ho ' Hope's let ter. It might mean to express irritated feelings, or it might mean to provoke to a breach of the peace. And here he (Mr. B.) would say, that Mr. Hope, whoever was his adviser, had been badly advised, in not being advised to negative this mean. ing. He had however - left the bar without having done this. "As for explanation, he (Mr. B.) had heard none; and with re spect to contrition, that had not been even pretended ; and Mr. Hope had left the House in a situation ; with regard to its cha racter and honour, which would induce even the Hon. Baronet for WestminSter (little as he regarded the House), to look down upon it with compassion. Indeed, in his opinion, the House would reduce itself to a miserable, contemptible, and pitiable condition, if it adopted the present Resolution. Lord BINNING said, that after the digrified and temperate proposal of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Courtenay) lie had hoped the House was getting near a termination of this un leasant discussion ; but after the speech of tile Hon. and Learned Member who had just sat down, lie thought he should forfeit his duty as a Member of that House, and his, duty also to his esteemed and beloved Friend, who had left the Bar, if he did not offer a few observations on the present question. He differed in opinion with the Hon. and Learned Member as to the necessity of severity in the present case. Where that Mouse acted upon a breach of its privilege, leniency was always de- sirable ; and he thought there was nothing in the case of his Learned Friend to render it incumbent on the House to do more than eves contemplated by the present motion. He appealed to the House, whether they had ever heard a more firm— (Hear, hear ! from the Opposition)—he would repeat the ex pression, (because without the firmness he should not have valued it) a more firm, a more respectful address than that 'which had been delivered at the bar by his Learned Friend. — His Learned Friend had stated that he had no wish to violate the privileges of the House. - Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in that case he must have misunderstood Mr. Hope. He (Mr. B.) understood him to say, that he felt himself compelled to defend his character, even at the risk of violating the privileges of the House. Lord BINNING said, it was perfectly true that his Learned Friend had said this ' • but in another part of his speech, he had said, that lie had no desire to offend against the Privileges of the House. His Learned Friend had truly said, that charges had gone forth against him under which he found it intolerable to live; charges' affecting his private character, and likely to affect his professional prospects as a Barrister. Had the dis cussion of the subject out of which the business arose been likely to undergo discussion this Session, his Learned Friend would have forborne to write the pamphlet in question, and would hate waited for an Inquiry, the result of which could not but be most honourable to him. But his Learned Friend could not allow an impression to remain which it would after wards be most difficult 'to remote: The statement of which his Learned Friend complained was not founded in fact. He had been charged with conduct as Counsel in a cause; in which, in fact, he was not, and never had been, Counsel. (lie Lord Binning) was ready to admit the ability which had been dis played in the course of that statement by the Honourable and Learned Member (Mr. Abercromby); but he 'could not join' the Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham) in his eulogium on the temper of the Honourable and Learned Member. It had been stated that the object of his Learned Friend was to create ' a prejudice against 'an unfortunate Gentleman who was to-be ' tried for his life; whereas the paper alluded to was signed in January, and the unfortunate duel, in respect of which Mr. Stuart was tried, did not take place till March. He (Lord B.) would feel ashamed of his Learned Friend, if he did not contradict the imputation thus cast upon him, and contradict it too with indignation. He would here beg leave to Say, that had the Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Abercromby), when he read the paper in question to the House, read the whole of the words connected with the signatures, even he (Lord It) though no lawyer, could have informed him of the practice - which was very common at the Scottish B/r, of one Counsel, from motives of courtesy, signing the pleadings of another.— This was the 'case of his Learned Friend, who did not even read the pleadings he signed ; neither was it necessary for him to have done so. And when his Learned,Friend found that his conduct had been misrepresented, and that the misrepresentation had been sent forth to the world, he was naturally provoked, and he acted under the immediate feelings of provocation. The cha racter of his Learned Friend was as high as that of any man in that House, and he was sure that the Gentlemen of England would make every allowance for the wounded feelings of a person of honour. But his Learned Friend had not to com plain merely of the speech of the Hon. and Learned Mem ber (Mr. Abercromby). He had to feel the weight of autho rity which belonged to the Honourable and Learned Member for Knaresborough (Sir James Mackintosh), who was not less admired for his splendid talents than he was respected for his moderation in politics and the amenity of his manners in pri vate life. When this great authority was backed against him, his Learned Friend felt convinced that the whole country would condemn him, unless he immediately resisted the at tack. That Hon. and Learned Member had accused his Learned Friend of " a furious zeal in the cause of injustice and op pression." It had been truly said that, with regard to this subject, his Learned Friend was yet upon his trial ;- and this was an additional reason for the House to treat him in the present case with lenity. It had been said that motives must not be imputed to Members; but had not motives been imputed to his Learned Friend under which it would be disgraceful for him to live ? It might also be observed that his Learned Friend had been brought to London at a great inconvenience, at consi derable losi as regarded his professional pursuits, and at an ex pence which, to a professional lawyer, was no trifling considera tion. If one Member of that House imputed motives ' o another, he would be only called to order; and lie therefore trusted, that the merely repelling of motives, charged without foundation, would not be visited too severely. The House would not for get that this breach of prifilege had been founded upon an other breach of privilege, to which his Learned Friend was no party. He alluded to the publication of the debates of that House, though he 'did not say that this was a breach o:privi lege at which the House ought not to connive. lie ought to observe that the contracted circle of society, in which his Learned Friend moved, had been poisoned by these imputa tions on his character, which, had it not been for his vindica tion, would have destroyed his happiness, his fortune, his fame, and every thing which could be dear to a young man of honour and talent. Indeed party ,spirit at Edinburgh ran so very high, that his Learned I riend could not have lived had he not repelled the imputations on his character. Mr. ABERCROMBY assured the House that he did not rise to offer an opinion on the present question. He merely wished to state a few facts to the .House ; but he could not do so without expressing his regret that he should have been the cause of the time of the House being thus taken up, to the de lay of public business.—( Hear, hear, hear !)--He had read Mr. Hope's pamphlet. He knew nor what had been its effect upon the world; but, as it was only in that House that he held himself accountable for his conduct or his language within it, he had never authorised any one to answer or com ment upon if He had now to repeat to the House, to the best of his recollection, what he had said with respect to the plead ings, signed by Mr. Hope and the other Counsel, in the course of Mr. Stuart's action. He read the plea, and the names of the Counsel subscribing it, and added, " I don't know how far these Gentlemen are responsible for this paper. That is a mat ter of indifference, as far as regards my argument. It is as Ad vocates Depute that I speak of them." At that time he cer tainly was not aware of the practice at the Scotch Bar of Gen. tlemen signing the pleadings of each other. The fact was, that the paper had been read to him by an individual some weeks before he made his motion ; his attention was then drawn to the substance of it rather than to the mode of the signatures. He denied that it was any part of his argument to shew that Mr. Hope was Counsel in Borthwick's case. His charge was that the object of the proceedings in that case was to prejudice Mr. Stuart on his approaching trial. His motion was made on the - twenty-fifth of 'June, and on the twentieth, he was in possession of the Report of Mr. Stuart's Trial. This was a material circumstance to shew what must have been the course of his argument when he made the motion. He would now state, that if he had ever the misfortune in the course of his Par liamentary duty to hurt the feelings of another in consequence of his stating any thing respecting which he had been misin formed, he would never have hesitated, if an application were made to trim, in a proper manner, to bow to correction and to give the Individual the benefit of every explanation within his power. Ile assured the House that he had acted in this matter from a desire to uphold his individual character, consistently with his duties as a Member of that House. He begged also to declare that if called upon to remedy any case of injustice ori ginating with himself, in a fair, candid, and intelligible man ner, he should"with the same readiness apply himself to do so, as he believed every Member in that House would be disposed to do.—(Cheering., The Marquis of LONDONDERRY expressed his anxious hope and strong confidence that the same temper would mark their proceedings in all its parts, as had been evinced at the outset of it. He was glad he had given way to the Hon. arid Learned Member (Mr. Abercromby) because he thought that he had delivered himself in that exemplary tone, in which it must be the wish of the House that the discussion should be con ducted. lie hoped also, that neither the warmth, which had been thrown into the discussion, by his Noble Friend (Lord. Binning), nor by the Hon. and Learned Member for Winchel sea (Mr. Brougham), would have any tendency to alter the ge neral complexion of it. The House had to consider of a ques tion of a most anxious and delicate nature, and much, he thought, of the future management of their privileges, would depend on the moderation and good sense with which they treated the present violation of them. He would not waste the time of the House by dwelling upon that part of the question. He would admit that there could be no doubt that the case before them was an undoubted breach of their privileges. But the publishing of the debates of that House was a breach of their privileges, but no one, he apprehended, could doubt that, after the practice had so long prevailed, and had become so essential to the interests of the country, it would lead to much mis chief if the House were to shut its doors, and deny the public the knowledge of what they did. This, thekefore, being a breach of privilege, tolerated by the House itself, any breach growing out of it must be regarded as criminal only in a se cond degree. Such a permissive breach must be expected to lead to inconveniences of the nature of that with which they had then to deal. It became them, under these circumstances, to look at this case in a general point of view, and deal with it from Rs own particular character.. The Hon. and Learned Gentle man opposite (Mr. Brougham) had admitted that when the printed statement of the speech of the Hon. Member met the eye of Mr. Hope, he could not but feel aggrieved. It was to be borne in mind that Mr. Hope was not Sheriff Depute in the case that had been alluded to, but the statement was brought home to the private case of Alexander. Now he would put it to the candour of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), or to any Member of that House, whether,,if he were in Edinburgh when he felt himself called upon to reply to such an attack as Mr. Hope was admitted to have been sub jected to, he would have been able so to conduct his argument in repelling that attack, as to be free from glancing at the poli tical motives of the assailant ? He was, sure that no one would be able to say that he would act so coolly as to run no risk of committing a breach of the privileges of that House. It was agreed, he believed, that the only part of Mr. Hope's defence in which he was wrong, was, where lie travelled out of the facts of the case. 11Ir. Hope had stated at the bar, that, so far from wishing to infringe the, privileges of the House, he balanced for some time between running the risk of doing so, and leav ing his own character at hazard in the world.—(Hear.)—He said that he was aware of the danger he was in of doin,g so by the course he felt himself obliged to take ; -but that he was urged forward by feeling that his character was in jeopardy. —The strong feelings of the individual were to be taken into consideration, and the only question under all the circum. stances- for the House was, what would satisfy the justice and fitness of this case? He thought that if Mr. Hope were called to the Bar and the Resolution of the House communicated to him, tha the had committed a breach of their privileges, but that, under the circumstances of the case, , the House did not feel itself called upon to take any ulterior proceedings, although the word ad monition did not happen to occur, it would in fact be tante mount to an admonition. With a person of Mr. Hope's feel ing and delicacy, he was sure it would be felt as such. That he thought the House would consider to be going far enough, when they remembered that in the original case Mr. Hope was no more connected with it than lie was. They would all, he was sure, lament if they did not close this proceeding with the same unanimity as they had commenced it. For his own part, lie confessed he had gone forward in it at the beginning with that degree of cordiality he had shewn, less on account of the form, than from a desiie to prevent the matter going to that extremity, to which, with minds of great delicacy, it might have gone, and which it was so much desired by all parties to prevent. He had joined in the general anxiety on that account, and assented to the form of proceeding proposed, from a desire to take that course which should bring both parties together before them with the least possible delay. It was less from any desire that he felt to inflict a vindictive punishment upon any of them, than to prevent that extremity which had been appre hended. He hoped the House would not think it necessary to deal in a vindictive punishment on the present occasion, but that it would end, as it had begun, with unanimity.—(Hear.) Mr. TIERNEY said that the great object which he had formerly in view in supporting the first step of this proceeding being now happily attained, all that he felt any concern in with regard to the farther progress of it was to see that it should be consistent with the usages, and becoming the character, of the House. Viewing it in that light, he could not agree with the Resolution before the House. If that were the course the House should resolve upon, he must say that no one could have a greater triumph than Mr. Hope would have. That such should be the termination of the affair, he was sure was not the meaning of the House, and - the proper way, therefore, was to steer the middle course. He must first say that, listening as he had to the explanation of Mr. Hope, he had not heard a single word of apology for what that House had informed him was a breach of their privileges ; and the impression on his mind from the de fence of that Gentleman was certainly not satisfactory. It had been called an explanation ; but all the answer his Hon. and Learned Friend could get to sanction such a name was, that he had had no wish to infringe the privileges of the House, but that, acting . under irritated feelings, he conceived himself warranted to risk offending the House by publishing that letter rather than remain passive. Now he would put it to the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wynn), who fre quently, so much to 'his credit, gave the House information on these subjects, whether this explanation of Mr. Hope was any thing that could be called an atonement for a breach of their privileges ? But some said it was a bi,.. 4 s -f a breach, and that raised an important question. The publi cation of the debates in the Newspapers was admitted by all to be attended with some disadvantages, which, however, by no means balanced the great advantages which the practice car ried along with it. After the length of ,time that it had been permitted, nothing could be more unfair than to abridge it. By others it was asked whether they would not have a man publish any explanation or defence necessary to re-establish his injured. character ?- God forbid that he should say that a man's character should be attacked, and he be permitted no means of defending it because he was not a Member of that House. But he contended that as it might so it ought to be done, with out attacking the person who had been the means of any sup posed injury as a Member of that House in discharging his duty. There were many ways of vindicating character so at tacked. One was to petition ; but if the course taken in this case were to be upheld, there would be an end to inquiry. It was said that the inquiry relative to'Borthwick was to go on. But what encouragement had his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Abercromby) to goon, if the newspapers were to be loaded with reflections on bins of this nature ? No one, he was sure, would countenance so extravagant a proposition. But it was said that a reprimand was conveyed in the course proposed to be adopted. if the Resolution comprised that the person at the Bar had satisfied the House, having expressed his contri tion, or so on, he should understand how there was a repri mand conveyed in 'it. But, merely in the reading of the Resolution of the House, that a breach of privilege had been committed, but under the circumstances of the case, without reciting what these circumstances were, so 'far from being a reprimand, he contended that it would be a triumph.—(Hear !) He, for his own part, should decline moving any amendment, still bearing in his recollection, the manner in which Mr. Hope's speech had been received.—(Hear!)—Remembering as he did, that he could not but have heard the shouts of triumph before he was out of the House, and from some quarters too which created no little surprise in his mind, he would not even propose an amendment to insert that Mr. Hope had offended against that Home. He should content himself with voting against the motion, unless something were inserted in the resolution of the nature he had before spoken of. If the House passed that re solution as it then stood, it would be shutting their doors for ever in favour of public delinquents, against . public inquiry. The case of Borthwick, which he had no hesitation in saying he considered to be one of most unjustifiable oppression, was still pending, demanding most serious investigation ; but it would be impossible to go on with it if persons out of doors were to be allowed to act as had been done in the preSent case. Not the youngest man in the House but would be ready to give advice to a friend about to take up a case of abuse, to beware how he entangled himself with those who were protected by the higher powers ; for though a Member of that House, the House would not stand by him.—(Hear, hear. hear !) —He would refrain, from a desire not to push the debate to any length, from giving expression to any of his personal feelings, of which he had many, on this question. But as a Member he protested against this pro ceeding of the House, as fatal-toits dearest interests. Ile had always thought that cases of privilege were pushed too far, but when once brought into the House he supported their privi leges. This, however, was a case in which their debates could not go on, if passed by with impunity, and left as an invitation to others. Persons acting on Mr. Hope's conception of his own right conduct, might carry the matter to still greater lengths, and fatal results would ensue before the House could intervene—before the morning sun arose. He hoped the House would see its true interest, and act upon the necessity of amend ing this Resolution.—( Hear, hear !) . Mr. WYNN considered this a breach of the most import ant of their privileges, without which they could not perform their most sacred duties. It appeared to him to strike at the freedom of speech, by commenting upon their speeches, and imputing un worthy motives. The direct effect of permitting such a breach, was to oblige the Members of that House to de scend into the arena of public discussion, for their justification and elucidation. Most fortunately the House tolerated, but never authorised, the daily breach of their privileges, committed in the published reports of debates ; for not being authorized, no Member could be called to account for what he was report ed to have said. If such a state of things existed, every Mem ber would be obliged to read every Newspaper. There was no doubt that the reports of their debates were given with sin gular accuracy. But from the necessary disadvantages under which they were taken, and the haste with which they were put together and printed, generally but a few hours after they were spoken, it not unfrequently happened that Members were misrepresented, and sentiments pult into their mouths which they had not uttered. What a task then it would be to impose upon each individual Member the necessity of examining every report of his speeches with a view to make the requisite correc tions ? For these reasons it was that the course taken by Mr. Hope amounted, beyond dispute, to a substantial, real, and serious, breach of privilege. But then it had received every extenuation that could possibly be given to it. The individual had pleaded in palliation at the Bar of the House the infirmities of his nature, --he had stated to them the irritated feelings un der which he acted. He considered that the offence committed had proceeded from the common infirmities of human nature, and not from any design to violate the privileges of the House. Mr. Hope had expressed his regret that he had incurred the censure of the House. - Mr. TIERNEY.—WiII you introduce those words into the Resolution ?—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WYNN saw no objection to such a course.—(llear.) But he begged to be understood as speaking in the recollection of the House. There had been cases in which the House had given the go-by to breaches of privilege; but he thought it would be disgraceful to them to do so in such a case as this. If the recollection of the House went along with him, he sa* no reason why those words should not be inserted.—(Cries of " Move.") Mr. CANNING said, he could not for one consent to any thing being introduced into the Resolution, tending to convey a reprimand to Mr. Hope, for his conduct on this occasion. In judging of that conduct, the question for the House he thought was, whether, under the circumstances of Mr. Hope's 'situation with respect to that House, and taking into considera tion his own feelings as described at the bar by himself, he had done any . thing which could be imputed as a purposed, intentional violation of their privileges; or whether, in the performance of that great duty of repelling an unfounded ac cusation, and vindicating his injured honour, he had not Un knowingly incurred a technical breach of those privileges. It had been stated by some Gentlemen, as though the question were entirely and solely between Mr. Hope and that House.— Undoubtedly if any person out of doors were to call to account any Honourable Member for language uttered within the walls of Parliament, as such a practice, might lead to great mischief, it would be the duty of the House to vindicate its privileges. But they who argued the question upon that narrow basis, forgot or overlooked the third party in this and similar cases, who stood in transit betwixt the two already named— he meant the Reporting Press ! To this source it was that he who was injured might sue for redress. He was not going to open the question of the policy of putting down, if prac ticable, this so long tolerated breach of their privileges.— It had become so engrafted on the system, that it would not be desirable, although with the advantages which at tended the practice, there were still disadvantages. He en treated them, before they agreed to reprimand an ardent young man for a venial fault, such as he had committed, to put themselves in his situation. He begged of them to recall to their minds, Mr. Hope's own representation of his grievance, and his incitements to the course he had taken —the contracted circle of society in which lie moved, where every man he met was either a political friend who mourned, or a politiCal enemy who triumphed, in his degradation.— He entreated Honourable Members to place themselves in his situation, and consider how they would conduct their defence.. For the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Aber cromby) lie entertained both in and out of that House more re spect than he possessed the power to express. He confessed that he had much relieved his mind by the candid statement he had that night made, that he was ignorant of the practice of the Scotch Bar, of one Barrister signing his name for another pro forma. He had felt that point so strongly, that had the lion. and Learned Gentleman not stated that, he should have put a direct question to him on the subject. Undoubtedly he (Mr. Canning) had been ignorant, and the o reat majority of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's hearers had been ig norant of that fact, when the Honourable and Learned Gentleman read the name of Hope for M'Neal, in which case he admitted, had Mr. Hope been concerned, there would have been that basis for all that had . been imputed to him, for which, as he had not been concerned, there was no foundation. When the Hon. and Learned Gentleman read that statement, he certainly considered the reputation of Mr. Hope to be in jeopardy, and although he was in no way connected with him, beyond the esteem he felt for his Noble Relative below him (Lord Binning) he did apply to that Noble Lord, to know if the matter stood as it then appeared. His Noble Friend., however, relieved him on that part, by stating that peculiarity in the practice of the Scotch Bar, of which he was before ignorant. But in the meantime, this mistake per vaded the House, and not only the House, but the Country, and the morning after the debate, to the extent of more than ten thousand miles, and an infinitely greater expanse through out England and Wales was poisoned against the oppressor who would basely prejudice a man upon his trial. He asked was it possible for a man to sit down in contentment under that aspersion ?—(Hear, hear !)—Would he not take the readiest course to vindicate himself ? The lion. and Learned Member (Mr.Abercromby) had told them that lie would readily, if properly applied to, have corrected the mistake he had fallen into.' He (Mr. Canning) was sorry that Mr. Hope had not taken that course ; but the House would be aware that it was open to the inconvenience of possible delay. An Hon. Mem ber might have answered privately that he would not afford the required remedy, in which case the applicant would be driven back to the remedy at first open to him. There was also another mode, it was said, open to this Gentleman, and that was to address a letter to the Editor of the paper in which the speech appeared, assuming it to be a false report,' and proceeding to his vindication. But he asked the House if there was that difference betwixt such a course and that which had been adopted, as to justify any extraordinary severity on their part ? If they permitted the practice of sending forth to the public the first impression of what passed in that House, they must be, aware that they incurred the risk of doing what had been done in the present case, viz. of placing an individual in a si tuation intolerable to a man of honour, and from which it was natural for him to seek to extricate himself. He could not say that he had understood the speech of Mr. Hope at their Bar in that sense that some Hon. Members appeared to have taken it. As it seemed to him, he had begun by stating his regret at having violated the privileges of the .House. He next stated the esteem and veneration which he had for those privi leges ; and he then stated his own situation, which had led him to commit the breach in question. He told them that he was at the time aware that lie was treading upon ground whereon he was in danger of trenching on the privileges of that House; 3 ." 4 with a frankness which, he hoped, would not be visited th severity, which belonged to his character, he stated the owed it to his professional character, and to his individual h ° , nour, not from fear of the consequences, to abstain from perms which he conceived, under any circumstances, torily called upon to do. The question then was not when c e they should treat this Gentleman as one who not estio'""' qu e a t the probability of violating their privileges and volunw. offending ; but as one who acknowledged, and was as erotl e as themselves for the maintenance of them, but who, from 0 , situation in which he was placed, his_personal honour and vg tion in society endangered, after balancing betwixt leo i r i, these interests-to their fate, yet much as he venerated their f e e vileges, and desired not to offend against them, felt called u. e r te . to incur the risk as his only alternative. This was the it meat they had heard, and he. confessed he saw nothing '' l , o which, if omitted, would not have left that Gentleman ope n obloquy. He had told them plainly that he grieved to 1 1 1 i i, been placed in a situation betwixt their , displeasure and 11 0 own disgrace, and he hoped the House would not punieh for not having chosen the latter. Ile (Mr. Canning) h°er that they would skew him that as he had chosen the easc,ee course, so also lie had chosen the safer. He trusted they W°„,, he was perees.,r; not send him back to Scotland with the stigma of having e 0 misted any other crime than that.—(Hear, hear !) tes s Mr. 4BERCROMBY, in explanation, said that he do , misunderstood by the Right Honourable Gentleman. The l i e current to which he had alluded, and which was signed by a l Hope and Mr. M'Neill, had no reference whatever to the t- t - 1 1 of Mr. Stuart ; and was disconnected with, and had no rei st ri,„ to, the case of Borthwick. He noticed the fact of those Ger ; t he men having signed that answer merely in consequence 0 , office they held as Advocates-Depute. Lord A. HAMILTON said he regretted what had noe' t ee but he could not conceive that the vote now proposed m h ei House was consistent with any opinion that any Member, e - 5 , delivered. The sympathy of the Hon. Members seems t he tirely turned to Mr. Hope, and both his Hon. Friend alla itee privileges of the Heuse were forgotten. The Right Hon. Gel. tleman (Mr. Canning) called upon every Gentleman to Pr. e l himself in the situation of Mr. Hope. He (Lord A. Re) ' a lio certainly had no affection for that situation ; but he might tie ~ beg them to feel themselves in the situation of elle lion. M ee t, her who had been attacked. The object that the Hon. ti e : e a who first brought this matter before the House profe' re to have in view was to protect Members in the disch 3 t st of their duty. This the Resolution eew proposed did '', O e „ all tend to do. Putting himself in CV situation of Mr- l';13 (at the desire of the Right Honourable Gentleman,) he still C O I O not think him justified in acting as he had done. He Im o , aske any man to read the letter, and say whether the es e rk, sions used there were bona fide merely a vindication 0 , Hope's character ? When he read there such words as the.r,,a "It is very possible that the wilful misrepresentation of 0 e# may have induced you to think yourselves safe in the grl' or : of that attack," he could not consider them as any think s yia of a menace. There was, perhaps, some impropriety M u t it Hon. Friend having hastily taken notice of this letter, was the duty of the House to prevent the consequences otl g • lar acts. He should be sorry to preis any thing harsh be y Mr. Hope, but he thought the suggestion of the Hon. 3 1 _,e m o r for Knaresborough the midest that was consistent with We pearance of propriety. "r e Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, the House _tu Iy° easily believe he did not rise to speak on the m e lse the question, or to oppose any degree of lenity time I th e alight think proper to shew towards the Gentlemen I" atter Bar. He rose merely to make an observation on a,m personal to himself. In answer to the courteous and frie r ' t er though warm appeal of the Noble Member for Boehlre, (Lord Binning), he had to say that he concurred e°bet.. ly in the statement of his Honourable •Friend (111 - •`' the cromby). He had read the names affixed to the record Rare action of Mr. Stuart against Alexander, without being 8• ivg certainly of the practice of one Member of the Scots Bar s', l6- e d, for another ; but without laying any stresson the names s i g n ' to to both of which were those of Advocates Depute, but inere,,/, show the relation of that part of the proceedings to th question. He begged now to add, that the case of 13cfrthot could be by no means prejudged by any decision on thel!r t bst matter, and that he thought it necessary that the whole oh important case should come on its merits before the gusts (Hear, hear !) ord 11 ' Mr. CANNING suggested that the Noble Lord ( L --. 0 015, Hamilton) was under a misconception in construing the ere 44 it is very possible that the wilful misrepresentation of u;fidi may have induced you to think yourselves safe in the g r of your attack," into any thing in the nature of a ineoa` (Hear, hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM asked whether the Honourable 311 r e (11Ir. Courtenay) acceded to the propositionpfthe Hon o o , ele Member for Knaresborough, or rather of his `Right lion 7" t ee Friend the President of the Board of Controul, to sta te c od' Resolution what the real motives of the House were in fil l ee pret ing no further against Mr. Hope, viz. :—the concern an" t'lly Of he had expressed ; to which he should not think it unwprealeg the House to add the circumstance of an accusation yet Pe,l' he el , Mr. COURTENAY said, as the Gentleman who ha d ti he brought to the bar had substantially expressed his reg r Fo 0 (Mr. C.) could have no objection to amend the Resobi ti e fore as to include the statement of this fact. He should tberr do amend his Resolution to stand thus—" That the Spe 3ke w est inform Mr. John Hope that, in coriSideration of his stat.,e,„ t o at the bar and of the regret which he had expressed, the I,l' was content to take no further proceedings in this matter. t the Mr. BROUGHAM thought it absolutely necessarY„ th Wa words, " and under all the circumstances of the case, , be inserted after the words, " regret he had expressed.' ”ns iv out such words, as he had supported votes against Pers4 v ote inferior or in unprotected situations he could not allow to be put from the Chair without his protest. lie consto;,cte in giving his vote, Mr. Hope as a person whose feeling et fee irritated, and also as a person under an accusation. P a ee these circumstances the House would be surely too just to any distinction between him and any . other. we A re lr N . ,er C y o m U a ß ter T iai EN in A h Y is sa ct i ) d n , sid c z e r rta ati t o n i l l y . , Tthhoesye,cesirpc;laos„tallai,theil fact of his being under accusation, formed a peculiar ingre in case. Lord A. HAMILTON said (though he was a bad authliiatc on that subject), that he had not perceived that Mr. 'lope," expressed any regret. Unless he had used such a term, it ify be rather inconvenient to put it on the votes. Mr. COURTENAY said the Noble Lord might be as s lo re d a that he should insert no words of that kind for which he not an authority. The motion was agreed to. ;dorlo c " Mr. Hope was then called in.—The SPEAKER --e n w ith' him of the Resolution of the House, and directed him" draw. MR. MENZIES. wed 10" Mr. COURTENAY Moved that Mr. Menzies be Upon his appearing at the Bar, , g boa The SPEAKER informed hitn of the course the ir,,_,.° ll ; e o tsde taken with regard to him, in consequence of a comPow:,,,h" sP" on the 9th July of the letter signed 3thzies, , peared in The Courier newspaper. owe" The letter having been handed to Mr. Menzies and ay that to be his production, he was informed by the SPEI ; o I3. e• that was his opportunity for saying any thing in his de' e-c ttit Mr. MENzrEs began in a low tone of voice by statitt he was most anxious to assure that Honourable House wa had always entertained, and still did entertain, a profono,iyea spect for that Honourable House, and that nothing, ha!,l; t 3 him greater pain than to know that he had done any t"" to the offend against its privileges. He then- proceeded to sti' sre d in motives by which he had been actuated. Hiving oh„se;Der of the Courier newspaper the report of a speech of a Nei l : coo' that Honourable House, containing a severe attack on hi s t ot duct, made, as he conceived, under the erroneous itlosicitp he had acted on a particular occasion in an official e°P be r he felt himself called upon to address the Hon. 31 °1 1 110 whom it was ascribed. As the Hon. Member had arte ( ijoa• false information, he considered it to be his duty to that.„n Member and himself to state how false was the inforrna,tive had had received, and how much he had been deceived . .f leo lbe published that statement in the hopes that the Hon. 01 5 would in his place state the real facts of the case. In ae,"ijoa• after lie had so written he received an answer from th a Member, in which he said, that out of regard for th r e Of leges of Parliament, he ,could not permit himself to g i :ger explanation on any thing which appeared in a Nen s fr e' but he admitted that the report was substantially LA-- th;+- However much he had regretted the course pursued I. !Y o iled Hon. Member, he acquiesced in it. He then felt bin-Is:too ; \Ton to address the Editor of the Newspaper i n A (l° , o her and he begged to assure that Hon. House that he pa" WOO' intention than to vindicate his own character befor e the ,eci If he had thought any other construction could be Pia l ' a n ot what he wrote, he would not have written it. •lie gat u roe: but feel that the charges preferred against him in the were unwarranted, groundicaS, sad false. Considering,„ofeS' feet they were likely to produce to his prejudice in his aper'c sional character, he had put that statement in s'tT ilS o se which had been voted a breach of the privileges of the::;-_,. a nw; Commons. He had, in the first instance, written Learned Gentleman, being convinced that what had c oin was gross and calumnious misrepresentation. The w tot to the ny n ' ea tect which he had subsequently taken was solely with a assur e th e vindication of his character. He had. now only to ar n u et the House, that in any thing which he had done; he h a _ so y 0 6 ; slightest intention to provoke a breach of the law, /lore. of that, acting as he had acted, he should commit a bra e 9 wh i c h thel privileges of that House. Mr us N t V h : e a C r O d U o R i e t T ht lt sad ft thehad most at once to declare, that in conse quence of the full and via t er consistentthesp courseh a eeca 1:11:e c; I kip