The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-08 00:00:00

d. • mot e viaitag el Lever la one was :its, w! ie feared it to called to !(1, even ,een sup; state 01 ra Po.vie r t heatte' bis ,t 4.11 • ,Q" mend Fut ss - div • ' ffi l° l ) tad previously existed. And notwithstanding ttee di , in d ividuals had - endeavoured . p to dsh unanimity too it . far, still remained as the monument , - of his Majesty's pre- I c e r; and as a n earnes t o f t h e . b e n ef i t , to which that presence ne tee. - give rise in time to come. The great mass of the popu '4tr n was sound iii rte loyaltyand attachment to the laws but Pie were d r i v e n to t h e i r d estruct i on by di stress . At pr esent the outrages were confined .to the ignorant and the uneducated, ! I x' betrayed no symptoms of a relig ious or a political charac ter- If, ho wever , t h e P ar li ament Auld hesitate in granting PoWers for putting it dpwn at once, it might receive those so- P4aring additions, and the whole country, educated as well as !gnorant, might - be involved in it. He trusted that he had now 'aid the subject before the House, briefly but fully, and that in ! t ? doing he had said nothing that could provoke unnecessary ealcussion. If the House was disposed to ,grant these powers, 0 1 . 1 4 1 .ee could not. e put into action too speedily. With that view r the question p ossibled press the passing of the Bills, - with as !. I ttle delay as p His Right lion. Friend, who would . be enabled to give the House more information than he possibly .could, he meant the Chief Secretary, (Mr. Goulburn), had ar lived in town that day , from Ireland, and would shortly take his hit in- the House. He should now move " That leave be given to bring in a Bill fOr preventing 'outrage and disturb= ante, and forputtine down rebellion in Ireland." ,e,Sir.J. NE isrPOST began by claiming the indulgence of the 'Veuse which he bad much more cause to ask than the Noble Lord. ' However painful, also, might be the subject to the Noble Lon; it was not less so to him. No one could 'have. a 'higher °Pinion than he had of the spirit, talents, and ability of the - Noble Lord, who was now appointed to the - Government of Ire land. It was to him most painful to admit the necessity of co t-felon to put down the existing disturbances ; but at the same ee ir .ne, it was SatisfactorO to him to know, that heat least had no " n icipation in theoneasetres which produced thein. The blame -°f, that m ust a tt a ch t o hi s Majesty's -Ministers. To elucidate !I's, he begged to move that, the Clerk should read a Motion . r,▪ ;/11 theefeurnals of the House, dated June 17, 1817.—(The "ark read 'the Motion,- which was one for an lequiry . into the "-ate of Ireland.)—The Right Hen. Baronet -(in continuation) "eid, that the Teller uon the negative of that motion was the ( Hear, of State for the Home Departnient (Mr. Peeln— a-feae, fleas !)—lf the proposed inquiries had been made at that Period, the present measures hwould not now have been called tor, for the e xisting evils would have been preventedese(Hear, h ear, hear!)—Hove then could the Government who nega „ red that proposition, come down to the .House, to ask for Powers of such a description ,as those which should be t!ranted ny, the' enactment o. these Bills ? He knew that Ire end now required coercive measures ; but he difinred from, the Noble Lord as to the nature of those measures. The dis larbanceswere altogether unconnected with the Constitution, and 4 's was not disposed to _give.theen any connection with it, by - E usPendino its very spirit. In framing new measures, some t ensideration oiight to be had to the laws which were already in existence. The Whiteboy Act did as much as the Insurrection be itself would do :Ti' one respeco; for it rendered it penal to- s out after sun-set, in the same manner as that Act did. Ife . L ` v its disposed to place a in the Maruis Wellesley, eet there was nothing l in o the dispatches whic q h expressed the °Pinion of that Nobleman as to the necessity of the proposed '°easurese. The Noble Lord - had misunderstood. him if he sup- Posed him to desire the mixing up of coercive and conciliatory 'llettsures at the present period. He was unhappily convinced that nothing but severity would bring back the people to their d uty , But instead of granting these measures and vesting such Powers in the local Magistrates, he would increase the Military _rower. - The papers a which the - House •werein possession, c nntainedno statements upon which the. proposed measures ap peared to be necessary. The Insurrection Act provided, that 4 °Y -man found out of his house after sun -set, and before sun rise, under any pretext—any occupier of a house being found absent from it at those periods,—auy.person proposing or .taking °Dlawful-oaths, were liable. to transportation. And that not by the verdict of a . Jury—Meer, hear,)—but by , the direction of -Magistrates. It was impossible to say that such a law should be pl ace d upon the statute book, without the most press nO exigency being proved *co exist. The Noble Lord had' informed them, that the Acts were only to be in %Ave until the Ist of August. As to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, lie would ask the Noble Lord When it had - been enforced without grounds very different from , those which existed in the present case ? Tile-Noble Lord had tlepeecoted any-movements at this period- of those who sup- Perted the Catholic Claims; Now, he being one of a party who at elf tiiues had declared that, toe only true basis upon which the tranquillity and happiness of Ireland could be established, seas an equalization -of cavil rights amongst all classes of its peo- PIC, he could not be expected to subscribe to the doctrine which the Noble Lord had advanced.—(Hear, hear4—But let it not be conceived that in the remotest degree he could countenance the.conduct of those wretched men who were involving their eeeantry in destruction. To do so would be doing the greatest taiustice to himself and his friends. He did. not differ with the „„ obl,e Lord upon the necessity of putting down these outrages; lie di ff ered with him asno the means of, doing so ;' he did not differ with him as to the necessity of punishing the criminal, . / .,'"'"t he could not agree to the mode which he recommended.— e wished them to be brought back terser full and due obeAence to the laws, and that Ireland should receive her de servee share of the benefits, the protection, and the,blesaings of • the British Constitution. Mr: HUTCHINSON said there were was no Member of th at House more anxious to join Government_ in every consti tutional measure for.tranquillising Ireland than himself. No nom felt more keenly than he did the painful situation in which an Irish Gentleman was -placed at this crisis than he did; 'Yet lie was anxious as the Noble Marquis himself to afford Protection-to the country, and would therefore explain his rea sons for the vote which he meant to give. 'He was fully aware el the. outrages perpetrating in Ireland, and he felt the neces sity fer.putting them down, but-he cpuld not agree in the as sertion that the proposed measures would have that effect, or Overeat all calculated to produce it. Bodies of banditti, even - though amounting, to 4 or 5000 men, had invariably been dis ersed when opposed by a sufficient, yet comparatively small ores. He would, therefore, contend that there was a certainty e of bein g a bl e to put down the rioters by the existing laws. The stisurgentshed been always found contemptible when opposed b it ! a sufficient force. With respect to the suspension of the abeas Corpus Act, would the Noble Lord state in what in // nee it had ever been carried into effect against such persons xs those described in the papers now oa tee table?. Those "lees gave great powers certainly,- but they gave not the power to.da any good. He had repeatedly called - upon Ministers within the last twenty years—fie would now' reiterate that call, to e , redeem the pledge given to the Irish people by both the earliaments of Great Britain and Ireland, at the period of tl l / 2 5 Union—that pledge by which they bound themselves to take into their consideration the state' of Ireland, with the V iew to „put an end for ever 'to the causes of - their misfor tuties anti, complaints.—(ll - ear , hear.) . Mr.. Pitt had stated the necessity for the early redemption' of this pledge, and in that declaration the Noble Lordhimself had concurred. He did Pet complain of the Parliament for not having conceded certain teeasures ; but he complained that be never witnessed the di rectioh of the attention of Parliament to Ireland, but when it wasehoeght necessary to enact strong measures. He had not the honour of intimate acquaintance with the Nobleman now at the head of the Irish Governmene; but be knew enough of him t character anticipate that he would effect every thing pos sible for the tranquillity and happiness of that country. He s vould'contend that the papers then on the table contained not the slightest ground for supposing that that Noble person felt that the proposed Acts were necessary.—(Hear, bear !)-The arnt caused by the disturbances was felt only . in die West or ootith-west of Ireland, and he' had no doubt that 4 or 5,000 troops would put down those disturbances in one month. He !gam repeated, that none of the Union promises had been car 'led into effect.—(Hear, heer.)—The Hen. Gentleman here warmly condemned the avowed intention of the -Noble Lord to attempt carrying the proposed Acts through all their stages tag night. The Noble Lord seemed to think, that if he armed the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland with force sufficient to Pen down the present disturbances in that country, that per manent tranquillity would follow. ImpOssible ! frelandnever can be quieted until the situation of the country is changeof— ttitil the peasant feels he has an interest in the soil he cifitie Yates.— Wear, hear.)—He knew there were amongstlrtsh land lords is generous and as noble feelings as aaiongst any others ; but he luiew - that they had not fully considered the state of the Peasantry.—(Hear, hear 4)-That state must be chahged ; the tithe system, in particular, must be altered, before tranquillity could be expected.--(Loud cheers.)— [Considerable noise in the Gallery, at this period, prevented much Of what the Hon. • entleanan said from being -heard.]—The state of the peasant In Ireland is worse than in the most barbarous part of Europe; and in this assertion he had the concurrence even of every stran ge r who visited it—(Cheers) —and he would conclude by :asking, why had not the proposed coercive mealcares been ac companied-by a statement of the grievances'of Ireland, and s of the means of removing them ?—(Cheers.) Lord MOUNT-CHARLES, in explanation of the vote he meant to give, drew a distinction between. the Whiteboy Act and the Insurrection Act. The former referred only to patties assembled in arms, whilst the latter enabled elagistrates to pre lant such ;Assemblies. He believed it impossibl e fo e a ll th e m i. !itary in the country to put down the present disturbances, un less the assembling of the insurgents could not be preventd.— in hie capacities of a Grand Juror and a Magistrate he had re eeived information that there was a deep-laid plot subsisting in I reland, an d a per f ect understanding and correspondence be. ween the, parties engaged in it ; he th ere f ore cons id ere d t h ere w Some an absolute necess i ty f or s u spen di ng th e H a b eas C orpus Act. norne Honourable Gentlemen had asserted that the existing lhe aws were full adequate to the pacifiCation of the country ; that denied, and i nstanced the perpetration of a murder thievery day after the terminetion of the sitting of the Special Commission in Limerick. He fully coincided, however, in nam the opinion, that the distUrb et ancei w._ nectedwith religion or politics.: The murder to which lie alluded had been committal from a chapel. yard. Distress certainly existed to a melancholy extent. In the Co. of Clap, fur example, starvation was at' eve,ry man's theirproVision - s had been all destroyed. Had Parlianient met in October last, and had the proposed Acts been then passed, the country would have now been tranquil, but he anticipated much difficulty at,this late period. With the Insurrection Act a small number of troops could effect more than a large num ber without its aid. He rejoiced "to find that the Noble Lord had limited the continuance of the proposed Acts to six months. The Right Hon. - Baronet and the Hon. Gent. who had preced ed him, had said there was nothing contained in the Marquis Wellesley's despatches to call for the propoSed Acts—that there was no rebellion. Harmed insurrection and the attack. on the King's troops were not rebellious symptoms, he was at a loss to know what could be termed such. -Under the existing laws no man's life was safe, and . he believed that protection and secu rity could only be obtained and established by the Bills then be fore the House. Mr: T. SPRING 111Crfelt that he should ill discharge his duty to his constituents and .the country, were he to give a silent vote on the present occasion. Tie felt it peculiarly neces sary:for him to make a few ob - servations to the House on the subject then under discussion. The Noble Lord had said to the House you are to pass measures of coercion, but you are not to inquire into the causes of those disturbances which call for them—Wear, hear !)—There was only one principle on which' he could persuade himself that ha (Mr. Rico ought not to go into the consideration of the general state of Ireland at present, which was, that the shortness of the time for which the proposed Acts were to remain in force implied an expectation that the disturbances would be easily suppressed, and that in the inter val before their expiration inquiry would be made into the causes of those outrages, with a view.to prevent their recurrence. If ihe present , laws be deemed inadequate to • put down those disturbances, ,Parliament should find out means to suppress them; but let it be accompanied by inquiry, such as he had just described. If -the Insurrection Act be now considered an infallible remedy, why had it not been earlier resorted to ? —(Hear, hear !e--Since the Union "of the two countries the Records of Parliament, with respect to Ireland, contained acts of coercion—those hail been tried, repeatedly and inef fectually tried—they had been ineffectual, because no mea sures had been adopted calculated to strike at the root of the evil—(Hear, hear !)--Lord Bacon says that, " if you wish -to destroy sedition you must expel the causes of sedition."— Having witnessed the disturbances in Ireland—being well in formed. of their nature, he, in common with many others, felt 'the most extreme surprise at the intention to suspend the Ha beat Corpus Act. The Noble Lord admitted there was no thing politteek in those disturbances. Why then have recourse to a measure never before resorted to, except in cases of a poli tical description?—(hear, hear!)—'With respect to the Insur rection Act, he must admit that it, or something of the same nature, way necessary, but he could not willingly consent to its enactment in its proposed state ; yet, with a small alteration, it might be made unobjectionable. But the hurry in which the Noble Lord proposed to carry the tills would afford no oppo 'funky of proposing such alteration in Committee—that altera tion, which would render the Bill less unpalatable without de stroying its efficacy. The proposed Act, he admitted, would enable Government to get rid of obnoxious individuals, which they could not effect without it--that might be desirable, but he would object to the Mode of,carrying it into effect. His ob jection was to the trial of the parties before the Magistrates of the district in which the alleged offence might be com mitted. The Insurrection Act empowered the Magistrates, aided by a King's Counsel or Sergeant, to sit and try persons charged, with offences under that Act. There. was a clause also enabling the Court, so constituted,, to dispense with the inter vention or assistance of a Jury, if they (the Court) thoUght fit. Although it appeared optional, let not English Gentlemen be lieve that Juries would be tesortedto.—(flear, hear, hear He had himself acted as a Magistrate under former Insurrec , don Acts, and in no instance whatever had a Jury been sworn. —(Hear !)-1-le meant not to go at large into the history of the Magistracy of Ireland in order to prove how unceralified some of them were to perform the thitits prescribed by this Act. A. Right Hon. Gentleman, now unfortunately no more (Mr. Pon sonby), in speaking on this subject, said that when, as Lord Chancellor of Iteland, he examined the lists of the Magistracy, he found one man who was a waiter at an inn, and who conse quently often stood behind the chairs of the Grand Jurors.— (Cheers).—Theduty of Magistrates of the county was frequent ly to defend their own houses, or to be out perhaps five nights in the week preventing crime and preserving the public peace.— Could they be expected to proceed next day to tuhninister justice, heated as they must have been by recent impressions. If the Noble Lord's information be correct and full, he must know that instances have occurred within these few weeks which prove that local Magistrates are . not the best calculated for the purposes of restoring tranquillity, or of enforcing the laws. Previous to the late Special Commission for the coun ty of Limerick, in November lasi, a meeting •of Gentlemen and. Magistrates had been held in the .city of Limerick: , He had not attended ithieaself, but the Gallant Officer behind him had. The Magistrates of Limerick did, on that occasion;enter into certain resolutions which he regrAted were not contained in the papers on the table. With the leave of the House he would proceed to read the purport of those resolutions They prayed the immediate assembling of Parliament, for the purpose of considering not only of coercive measures, but also to inquire, and to devise adequate, measures to prevent the recurrence of si milar evils.. These were the resolutions of the Magistrates of the County of Limeiick—th a t co un ty w hi c h was 'at that mo ment in a state of disturbance.—(Hear, hear).—They did not call finecoercive measures alone.—(Hear).—The language used hitherto was—if in diCturhanee, the lnsurreetion Act—if in peace, no inquiry. —(Hear, hear).—They, the Limerick Ma gistrates, had suggested and recommended the modification of the Act of 54th of George 111. They sought not for those powers with which the Noble Lord . seemed anxious to invest them. The difference between the operations of the present and the proposed laws was this :—if a Commission should 'be sent to the disturbed districts, the Judge would not, could not, be influenced by local feelings or impressions he would there fore enter on the performance of his duty with all that coolness and impartiality which justice required; but if country Gentle men were called on to come forward, theyy could not answer for their own discretion: It might be depended upon that this lat ter mode would sow lasting dissention between them and the people, and the child would be shewn the house in which resided the man who had been instrumental in transporting its father.—(Cheers.)—He did not require that the proposed Bill should be abandoned, but that it might be stripped of its danger. Seeing. the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exche quer in his place, he would allude to one source of disturbance in Ireland which rivalled even the tithe system—he meant the Distillery Laws.—(Hear, hear !)—He found that within the last four years, there had been convicted in that country 16,000 persons, 4;000 of whom Were for offences against the Distillery Laws--(Meru, hear.)—and he firmly believed the Right Hon. Gentleman. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). was the most efficient ally of Captain Rock !—(A laugh.)—He would take leave-of the InCiirrection Act, by entreating of the Noble Lord not to press that Bill, or at least to• divest it of the clause to which he had alluded.—[The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Rice) here, with reference to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, made an animated appeal to the feelings of the Hon. Mem bers for Great Britain then present, which it was, unfortu nately, impossible to hear from the loud noise which prevailed in the Gallery.] In conjuring English Gentlemen to give to Ire land equal protection with themselves,ebe would beg to remind them that they were tue Representatives of Ireland as well as of England—(Cheers.)—He would entreat them not to vote for the passing of the Bills, without proof that they were impera tively called for—(Cheers.)—He would say " if you allow Mi nisters the habit of trifling with the Constitution, you will cease to' be a Free and Representatve Assembly."—(Cheers.) Captain O'GRADY said, that his own experience of the outrages which were taking place in the disturbed districts, en abled him most decidedly to say, that_ the existing laws were not sufficient to put down the disturbances.—(ffear, hear, hear, from the Ministerial Benches,)—The strongest proposed mea sure, the Insurrection Act, was not too strong.—(Cheers.)— But he was happy to bear testimony to the statement, that the unhappy disturbances were unmixed with politics, and that they were confined to the mountainous districts. The dis turbers of tranquillity were well aware of the powers of the Magistracy and knew, how to'. elude them. In (layetime they were never seen; and at night they went 4bbut, not in hundreds, for that would be desirable ; but in sixes, sevens, and tens. And under the present law, if they were caught, even with arms in' their hands, they could only be im prieoned for a given' period, and they . were then let looee upon the Magistrates who committed them. Al luding to the Meeting of the Magistrates mentioned by the last Speaker, he' begged to observe, that it was not a public Meeting, and for a very good reasona-thp Magistrates dare not convene a Meeting by public Advertisement, lest it should be known that their houses Were deserted.—(Cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)-..:The Special Commission ' did not inti midate the marauders for it single hour. The very night the Judge entered the town, a soldier had been knocked down and his arms taken from him. Maoy_Gentlemen summoned for the Grand Jury were afraid to attend ; the excuses were without number, and it was neit to impessibletoform a petty Jury. If these diffiCulties took place under a Special Commission, what might not be expected under the jurisdiction of the Magistrates? —(Hear.)--The• Magistrates wished for the aid of The Insurrec tion Act, and he for one was of opinion that no measure short of that would enable them .to put down the present alarming die trirlerreele • NO gentle min could get inforination upon oath as to the conduct of the disturbers, for no man would ven ture to come.forward against them. No gentleman could ga to his bed in safety ;' RI he might - often' calculate upom .heate ing the report of a musket at his the course of the n igh Hear, hear . !) .systp;n. of krl:9l. bad rendered this Act necessary, though . he by no ineanS intended to say that the gentlemen .of Ireland. had negitecied their duty. He der plored as much as any man the calamities 'which afflicted that country; he deprecated that •intolerable. nuisance the tithe Sys tem, and he was persuaded that it would work its own destruc tion. He wished for the eshiption of conciliatory measures; but, for the sake of the sufferers under these excesses, and in to the people themselves, he would" Vote for the pre:. sent measures, in order to put a stop to further outrage. Mr. DAWSON rose principally with a view to notice the observations of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. 'Newport), res., pecting his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for the Home Department. The Right Hon. 'Baronet, whose high character gave importance to every thing which fell from him, had referred to a resolution proposed by hiM (Sir J.' N.) in the year 1817, for an inquiry .into the evils with which..lre land was then afflicted, and which resolution had been op posed by his Right Honourable Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet must have forgotten that his Right Hon. Friend had proposed several Committees in the course of that very year. all having for their object the relief of Ireland from the subjects of complaint. He need only mention the Committee relating to Distillation, and that . respecting Grand Jury Pre sentments. And because his Right Honourable Friend had, at the end of a Session, declined adopting 'a sweeping mo tion of the Right Honourable Baronet, he was accused of. an indisposition to remove the evils alluded to. That motion of the Right Hon. Baronet was supported by a very few of his own friends ; and the House would therefore be enabled to judge of the importance which ought to be attached to the observations of the Right lion. Baronet. He (Mr. W.) was unable to judge, from the speech of the Right Hem. - Bartmet, whether he intend ed to support the present Bill or to oppose it, but it certainly would be most extraordinary.if he did not support it.-(Hear, hear, from Sir John Newport.)—He (Sir John Newport) had in the year 1817 supported the Insurrection Bill, in conse quence of a single meeting which had - taken nlacp some time before ; and surely he would not 'resist the till now, when nearly the whole South of Ireland was in a state of Insur rection. His (Mr. D.'s) principal object in troubling the House was to do justice to his Right Honourable Friend ; but with respect to the measures now under discussion, he thought them highly necessary, and gave them: his hearty support. Sir HENRY PARNELL-wits sorry to differ from th4:4o' with whom he was generally in the habit of agreeing ; but lie had had opportunities of observing the state of the'country, and it was his opinion that the present measures were absolutely ne cessary.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial Benches.)—He did not think that the whole of the evil had been stated in the papers laid before the House by his Majesty's Ministers. Yet lie did not agree altogether with the Noble Marquis, for •he thought the cause of the evil should be strictly inquired into.— (Hear, hear !)—lf the House was seriously inclined to bring the country to a state of .peace they must go to the bottom of the evil ; and he sincerely hoped that some gentleman compe tent to the task would bring the *situation of Ireland, with re ference to the cause of the present evil, under the consideration of the House. . Nix.. D. BUTLER expressed his apprehension of the conse. quences of confiding the powers of the Insurrection Act to the agistracy. Most of the evils experienced in Ireland arose from the oppressions the labouring classes endure 4 from the middle. Few, perhaps, knew the meaning of the term. The middle man was a person generally possessed of some property, who took large farms of land from the proprietor, which he portioned out into small ones, for which ,he received an'enormous rack rent. The consequences were, that there was no bond of con nexion between him and his uncertain tenantry, and they were consequently left defenceless to the rapacity of these middle men. This was a state of things which set men one at wax with the other, and called for redress promptly from the Legislature. Mr. GRATTAN reviewed, in a cursory way, a few of the causes of the prevailing discontent and outrage. He did not hesitate to admit, • that much bad feeling was excited by the rigorous manner in which the Excise persecuted the miserable offenders against the Excise Laws. The peasantry sought to raise by this practice as much money as would pay their rent ; and he greatly feared that private stills would continue to be resorted to for this purpose. , He felt strongly the objection to entrusting the M agistracr with the powers proposed to be vested in them. From what he knew of theirs, he was of opinion that Government could not grant a greater boon to Ireland, or more easily defeat 'unjust preferences and favouritism, than by depriving them of the excessive power they already possessed.— (Hear !) Sir F. BURDETT next addressed the Muse . , ,but for some moments his observations (owing to the noise which prevailed) were not audible in the gallery. He was 'understood to ex= press his surprise at the conduct of the Noble Lord (London derry), who, for upwards of twenty years, had the opportuni ties of knowing the real state of Ireland, of ascertaining the nu merous evils which pressed upon her, and of becoming acquaint ed with their causes, yet had neglected-all inquiries, had delay. ed every remedy, until now that he called upon the House to put down by force those mischiefs which he himself had thus negli gently suffered to accuinulate-4 H ear, hear!)—He confessed he did not see why the House should consent to go on with those thentemporarywhich were thus used for a time,- and they became again necessary. He was laidasmideeasutilreis, surprised that the Noble Lord should have the face in that House to get up and call for a repetition of those acts of dreadful oppression (for such lie would call them, 'however necessary) without giving to the Legislature an opportunity of inquiring into the nature and origin of the evils for which these palliatives were required. Was it tube tolerated, that Ireland should know nothing of this country, but by bloodshed and the gibbet ? (Hear.)—He for one did•not think that the evils of Ireland were to be remedied by such means ; and that this was the prevalent opinion in the House, he learned from what he had heard on the present occasion., He perceived that every Mem ber who gave his support to the proposed measures, did so with considerable, reluctance, as if convinced that the remedy of the evil did not lie in them. lie was glad to witness this sympathy, and he trusted they would act up to its sugges tions by compelling the Noble Lord to look about him, and to do what he. had so long and so grossly neglected. It was said that the disturbances in Ireland did not arise from any political feelings. He firmly believed they did not. It was impossible that greater affection towards the Sovereign Gould be evinced, or that a stronger sense could be entertained of the compliment paid them on that occasion, than was shewn the Irish people in the recent visit of his Majesty to their coun try. This feeling was not limited—it Was generally felt through out the island. That visit had, he believed, done some good ; but it was impossible that his Majesty should work miracles:— , Had Ministers taken advantage of his Majesty's visit, as they ought to have done—had they instituted measures for ascertain ing the causes of the evils which for many years afflicted that country, and taken pains to apply the proper remedy, the House might have been spared the painful task which they were now called upon to perform ; but he would ask, supposing the mischiefs existing in Ireland to be as bad as they were represented—still he would ask, what remedy was there in 'the suspension of the Habeas Corpus ?. Surely the Government had already the power as much as it would then have of arresting persons on suspicion. The suspensionof the Habeas Corpus did not give them more, for under that they had wi authority to arrest any man without fair ground of suspicion.—( Hear !) He maintained that the Government ought to be ashamed of this conduct: and lie attributed the whole of it to the system of the Noble Lord, who had suffered those evils to increase, and now came down with great complacency to ails the House to trust his incapable hands with a power which he had before grossly and wantonly abused. It was said, that the exercise of this great power was to be confided to the Magistrates. He (Sir Francis Burdett) was not sufficiently acquainted with Ire land to be a competent judge in this 'respect ; but from everything which he had heard in the course of the present discussion, the Magistrates were, least of all others, the Judges to whom such I a power should be confided. A Noble Lord (Mountcharles) ' had stated, that, before the month of October last, Ministers were made aequainted with the disturbed state of Irelend, and that they were at that time petitioned to call Parliament together to consider of the - subject. Why had they not done so ? • Instead of this, they suffered the mischief to reach its present intolerable height, and then cattle down - for freSh pbwers; as' it they had been occupied all the time only in endeavours to preserve their places. IS ow, with respect to a remedy; he had no hesitation in saying, that the Noble Lord at the heed of the Irish Goyyrnment, who, from his great talent and character—his feelings being so much in unison on the subject of the distresses of Ireland with those of th el rish people—was the best who could have been :elected for 'that office : he would say, that he would muell prefer see ing full power put into the hands of that Noble Lord for a time, than assent to the present' scandalous and' isgraceful measure. The Noble Lord would well know how to apply, and Would exercise it discreetly for the benefit of his . cduntrymen ; and be (Sir F. Burdett) would put more confidence in tae cacy of his measures, when acting on hist own character, and from his oven feeling; than he could possibly have, when he acted only as the organ of the present administration. —He would admit that acts of great outrage had been com mitted, and that their repetition ought to be prevented. He ) in common with all othi re, condemned 'them ; yet it should' be known that. they were not the result of deep .wickedness, brit arose from the pressure of such accumulated miseries, that no man, eiho.liftedhis area to prevent er avenge the ihjury, but must deplore the fast of the unfortunate beings who had been driven to 'vl'olllll t'.ssion. The HOn.' Baronet 'agiin: adverted to whet he degas ' tress neglect in the Noble Lord (Lon donderry), •tae .• ' 1 .- 'Leah] instrument in efthcting 'the Union beteee. " - es, and thereby,. deprived. Ireland of tint wh7e ..e . • haVe worked her 'ezildation ; but whe' . :lifid, , yeers, sriffeeedthoee evlls . /crer,E) t.• e to prevent their. After again adverting to the propriety o confiling greater pewer to the hands of the : . Noble Lord at the head of the Trish Go vernnierit, the "Honourable. Baronet otiseeved, that if tern carried such measures as the present ',tate execution, with out at the same 'time institatinwew most minute inquiry into the rear condition of Ireland,. and the cause of her grievauce.s, it Would have the effect only of irritating and disgusting the people. Ile would not go farther into the subject at present but . conclude by saying, that if gngland wished to retain pot. session of. Ireland, she must alter her system ; and he might add, that it would be much better to get rid of her altogether, than attempt to preserve our authority by a system of injustice. Mr. Le'ILBERT had no Objection to some strong measures for the purpose of putting down the present outrages ; but he would maintain, that unless they were accompanied by mea-•' sures of conciliation, and an earnest endeavour to redress the numerous evils, with which Ireland was afflicted, they would only have the effect of considerably increasing the irritation that prevailed in that country. He would mention; as one cause of that irritation, the tithe system. If ever the peace of . Ireland was to be brought about ? it must be by the total abolition of that system. He was against confiding such extensive powers, as by these Acts would be given, to the Magistracy. He fully admitted that amongst them there were most respectable cha racters, but the whole body of them were not so ; and it was well - known that in Ireland justice was bought and (Cheers from the Opposition.)—He entertained a hope that the Noble Lord would'consent to inquiry. ' Mr. AI3ERCROMBY thought there was no ground 'to juse tify the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. The NOble Marquis opposite urged as a reason that a great portion of the, population of Ireland, now loyal, might by the progress of dii affection become the reverse, unless strong.means e were taken to check the present disorders. But on such a speculation it was impossible for Irimf conscientiously to' support an Act for suspending thb liberties of the .people of Ireland.. He (Mr. Abercromhy) was quite 'dissatisfied with the dis patches of the Marquis Wellesley laid before the ll.ouse., and he believed the majority -of its Members concurred in that feeling. He certainly had expected •it would' con tain a comprehensive systematic description of the existing disorders, and a general description oldie character of theenea sures required to be applied as a remedy. Instead of that, how ever, nothing was contained in these documents beyond what had already appeared in all the newspapers, but even lessiheasninch as it was a barren journal of a number of events. .According to more recent intelligence, especially from Cork, the rebellion, as If waa termed by the Noble J i arquis,-wastegirfnic g iorribato„.auld• all that reniained was, a continuance, and perhaps an increase in the North of Ireland. The only thing upon which to ground the passing of the lnsurrectionAct was the M emorialofthe t)agiStrates of Cork. Theydescribed the nature and extent of the evil,but what remedy did they ask for? Not the Insurrection Act, but a . geeater Military force. The provisions of the Insurrection Act, if passed, eould.not be enforced without a larger military *force: • - He did not undervalue nor disbelieve the .eitistence of the danger, bnt he could not think this Act calculated to meet it,' and that Was the only ground of his opposition. The Noble Marquii said; that Government was not to be intimidated, and therefore they were not to enter into'a consideration of the •gries.aces which had led to these outrages. At the same tixie he said that the Insurrection Act might be required, beyondthe preXent''Ses sien, and thus, by the admission ? e f this principle, the import-. ant consideration of the unremedied grievances .of this people might be postponed. This was too dangerous, a• principle to be admitted. Mr. HUME said, he had a question to put to the Noble Marquis, on which he was sure the whole House was imiteda a - He adverted to the necessity there was of soine consideration being given to the tithe system; and lest the Noble Marquis should suppose he brought the matter forward without a careful consideration, he begged to aasurebirn, and all his friends knew it very well, that the tithe system had occupied his serious at tention for the last three tnonths.—(Laughter.)—He wished to know if the Noble Marquis would support a motion togo into a Committee on that subject, and he would give him the benefit of his services, having devoted,so much attention to the subject.— (Laughter.) Sir L. COLE stated, with reference to what had fallen from an Honourable Member on the subject of an improper appoint ment to the Magistracy in Limerick, that if any•eircuinstance of the description alluded to were known, or communicated to the proper platters, they would cause the appointment to be broken. Mr. GILBERT (we believe) stated that four affidavits of the facts he had alluded to were sent to the Chancellor of land, but the individual in question still continued to act as a Magistrate.—(Cheers.), Mr. D. BROWNattributed • the present state of Ireland to the consideration of the numerous grievances which afflicted that country having been postponed from the time of the Union to the present period. Mr. Cl. GRANT said, that: in discharging the painful and 'melancholy duty of giving his assent to the measure before the House, he was swayed whblly by the conviction of its neces sity. He had had the honour, a year and a half ago, to state to the House his opinion of the Insurrection Act. He still re tained that opinion as to the principle of it. He was as hostile as ever to its becoming a part of the permanent systetn of the Government of .I.reland.,--(Hear, hear.l)- e -ltut, ;ioe.r.- tended that there might not be a state, the continuance of which was not worse than the infliction, of the' Insurrection Act.. He never maintained that it was not better .to give up a principle we love, than endanger by retain ing it the very existence of society. Therefore it was that, yielding to the severe necessity of the case, he must give 'lns vote' for the passing of the Insurrection Act. He knew how much 'was thus granted to the local Administration of Ireland. He knew under what awful responsibility those acted who were entrusted with power over the lives of his Ma jesty's 'subjects. But at the same time he knew of the gradual diffusion, of the spirit of disaffe.ction, and he could not_ allow an evil to extend and take refuge under any principle that he might have laid down. When he (Ma C. Grant) was is Ireland, .he did not see.that which would justify such a measure, and he confessed the Report Of Marquis Wellesley, on the table, did ' not in his mind furnish oufficient, grounds upon which to paas this Act, and that if it had not been for other information and especially what had reached town that day, he should not.,:have consented to it. But that Nobleman's general view of the mode of Government suited to Ireland so entirely accorded with his own ; his ardent zeal to promote her happiness, and the expectations lie formed of. being able to accom plish his wishes in that respect, were so creditable to him that he deserved they should pass this Act as a Marla of confidence worthy to be reposed in him.—(Hear, hear.) — He was convinced he never would have asked it, unless he were sure that the safety,. of the_ country required ;it: He was sure that it *might safely be entrusted to his wisdom and discretion, and that so far from taking refuge under it to shel ter himself 'from further inquiry into the grievance§ which bore upon that country, it would act as a stimulus to hasten and to invite the attention- and discussion of Parliament upon them. When he (Mr. C. Grant) was in office, it had been his wish ,to enter more deeply lath the circumstances of Ireland, and he had intended, in the course of this 'Session, to do so._ ne was not tO be stopped on account-of this•meas'ure, which rather had•the effect of rendering it a more imperious duty on 'him. If called on to point out one of the principal grievanm a he should say it .was, -the whole of the tythe sys terre:—(l-leitt !)—He would not, however, then enter uuon that subject. , tae gave his vote for this measure as a proof of regard for the Irish people, whom he was about to place under the au spices Oa Man who he believed, was: reserved too them gobd; and under the belief that his Majesty's Ministers would readily remove those Bills whenever they could findan opportunity of doing so.—(Cheers.) • . Lord Et RI NGTON objeCtect 'to . passing the'lnsurreetititi Act, because he saw nothing in the papers before the House to justify the exercise of More extensive powers than were given by the existing laws; and hecause that Act was in itself odious, and acquired additional odium from the hands into which it was to be placed. Mr. BROUGIVAM and the Marquis of 1 4 0NDONDERRy rose at the same Moment, and the Noble Marquis sat' down.: 31e. BROUGHAM assured the House and his Hon.Triend on the.other side (Mr. Grant) that it would give him great sa tisfaction if he could agree with him in his views as to the mem. sure now proposed, although his Honourable Friend was so tn well infOred; and entertained such' enlightened view - A'. of policy on all subjects , connected with Ireland, which had contributed so much to' the benefit of that country; and would have contributed still mere, had his official residexice in that country been prolonged. lie now spoke froth the impression matte on his mind by the official ' conduct of his lion. Friend ; and they differed only in regard to their voceS that night; for he fally'agreed with his Right Horn Friend that 'every possible, degree of. confidence might be reposed i the Marquess - Wellesley—a fact that Must be evident to ever one who considered. his - , hil h character., It, was, hoNevecY beeitiise he (Mr. Brougham) did not' consider this' measures as one inditative of ,confidenee in the Noble Marquis 1 that he should oppose it ; and' because, if the measure was called for by necessity, it wound Ttter at once to pass' a vote vesting the present Lord Lieutenant of - Ireland .with extraordiniiry'pOwera, as the exigithey• of affairs - night re quire. Instead of such a law, as this, would, it net be better to adopt a specific reMedy • to' the iMme.diate exigency of af fairs ? What • right had the. Noble . Alarquiato call on the House to hurry a businesi of 'this 'kind? . What occasion was there for hiirry? If expedition .in a measure of this.kind .had been necessary, why was not Parliament assembled sooner Why did 'not Parliament meet . before Christmas ? But the Howie had evidence before it that night sufficient to chew that 'things were in 'such 'a . state in Ireland that' much evil 'might have been prevented liad. parliament , been called in the month of October' lest: 'Welt 'the GoVemment never to act'.s*.a rational! policy; by,. .thc. adoption of precautionary meatires ?=—by adopting suchrdeasures ag should prevent, InoteA. of rcTrnsing the mischief ? Why, then, 12 askal, had net the t!arliament been a.sse.mbled sooner ? Bet now the ' Nl:inkier; 'on . thereurgeney ofe'despatchea received - fivers-- alba; called eare' r • the , House to hurry a measure like thia •,• through all its .stages in one night !- if such , hurry was D 0. ., CaSSarY,' why did net.: Ministers adopt tharordinary,•precautio4e • of 'having a flouse• yesterday ? He did net mean ito Say. het it was not the duty of every Member. to attend to his-duty'ate the peoper tithe; but it was well. known that Ministers -couldi:' - whenever they chose, l•prevent • such an, accident as • the.: - which had occurred Yesterday : they, therefore, lost the . .ad- - vantage - of one day's debate on this measure. He did note, mean to'deny that a great emergencydidexist t, and 'he hOped • . he should • not be .nnderstood as giving the slightest counte-• nance to the-lawless and horrible outrages by which Ireland'," • was - disgraced. On the contrary, he would be ready to arm the Executive Government - of Ireland with all the ineans of sup- Lressing them, and even, if it were necessary, give the present ord . Lieutenant great dictatorial powers for that puepcse ;. but • in the present measures he, could see nothing eacept incoa, • • sistency and repugnance , ' forthey did not go to - repose a con - - - fidence in the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but•went to pleee' gonfidence in the Magistrates, and were . not confined to one - or two districtSe butt° the whole island: and the effect would'. be that any SA of Magistrates meeting together in any district, might, cause the fnsurrectionleaw Co be exercised there. ho pee-; , aenting a memorial to the Executive Giriernment ; and the last , measure would place the liberty, property,. And doinestie , ooni,:' .fort of • the whole • people of the . country at the disposal, of MagiStrates. They would have the. power • of. enterieg houses at night; anti' of • rudely, obtruding themselves ir.t-u. these parts that - were appropriated to - females ; cause any. man - - wno • was absent ,at a certain hour• to be arrested, and for no other cause than absence, such person would .• be• liable to be sentenced to seven years' transportation by any set of Magistrates, and thatewithout the intervention of a Jury ! ThiS was a shocking pourer, which might be made subseriient' _to ,the / petty Vindictive - feelings that prevailed in , such dia:.' iricts.' This was an excessive and' monstrons authority, -• for ' which no redress- could afterwards be -obtained- front a • Joey . of the country.. Thus was all redress shut out. 'These powers were to be exercised by those Magistrates, Of whottes aedet scriptien was 'given' tleat night. One Honourable Ilinelee. 'men had said, these •Magistrates were, not 'all proprietorie of "land, but middlemen, who were known to_thc people only at grinding scourges over thetas.. One person, - who had been a-.• waiter at an inn, had been- invested with - Magistracy; and a.• .raspeetehle. Member _.liqd most truly said that the,best plan would be to abolish the Magistracy - altogether. In fact, justice might be said to he bought and sold in Ireland, reeled' as it wes'by such men. And were these the men,• he would 4sk,• who ought to be intrusted with -the terrible powers proposed by these measures? He wished to know what chancy' was there of any conciliation • in these measures ? • And what- Tea./ •son % was-there to suppose that we shmild not be obligedtontinue , ally. to go on in this system of terrible coercion ? The Noble Lord said the people were in a state of actual rebellion; every. "one lifiewthat the Clergy, with' the greatest ecclesiastical-revel nues in the world, gest religious instruction to no more than one tenth 'of - the' people, that these Clergy were, generally non resident, and when we considered the number of- absentee landlords, it wag' not' to be wondered at that the present evils .existed ; but it • was astonishing,' after the long experience' Government 'must have had of. these and numerous other abuses, that •no steps were ever taken .to correct then'. But such was 'the composition of .the heterogeneous body :which managed the' affairs of Ireland, and -so balanced were they' ,on the subject of religious exclusion, that an Irish clues jion falling in among them, was always like to produce an •explosion. Therefore he' had no hope that the present Go. vernment would - ever exercise a kind and parental superin tendence over the Irish people. A great deal had been - said !'on - the subject of - tithes, and , hopes were often held our -that something would be done to remove the - evil which -they produced -; but he wished to see a question of this kind brought forward by some Member of the Government, because there would be a chance of some remedy being - adopted.— 1 Therefore, much as his Hon. Friend - helms:bleu - (Mr. Hume) had done in opposing the extravagance of Gus:eminent, yet it was to be feared that any measure introduced by him would nut bare the effect of reforming to great a mischief.— Either Ireland was in that state described by the Noble Mar., qnis, or the danger was greatly exaggerated and limited irt its existence. lf it was limited, the ordinary powers of the law must he so fficient to pot it &two. But if the people were in that state of rebellion described by the Noble Marquis, be did not see how the provisions of the felsourection-Act could our a stop to it; for Magistrates would never be chic to vi,it every bootee ; and pothing world do bit sit increase of the military force. Then, if such an increase of expence were to be resorted to, why not increase the military at oece without an •Act of this kind, and spare the attack it must make on the Constitutioti of the country ? As to the suspension of the Ha beas Corpus Act, if a power of imprisonment was :o be given, it would be wholly inapplicable to the state of the country ; because it was only when sonic leading man might possess aiotker, that it would be necessary to arrest him. What necessity, then, was there fur this? He knew the only effect would be, to make (the people tel Ireland believe that the .• ' ineasare was intended to_ be levelled at seine persists who were obnoxious, on acet.ant 'of the part they might haft to ken onsubjects connected with religion. .. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to reply. In con sequence of the Hoo‘itirable ;hid Learned Gentleman having gone so much into the question, he hoped the House woold. allow him to trouhlethem with a few observations upon what bad fallen from hint. 'rite Noble Mat gills flirt, called the: attention of the Hattie to the question whethee.the state il Ireland was suet) as to require the application of the mea sure. If it was necessary and only remedial, all the ditti colty which was stated to exist was removed. The runic:Jove Government bad shown in bringing forward the measure ottglit be considered tin ample apology -for resting to it. Efforts of no ordinary nature had beets made t o 'raid th e introduction. The Noble Maiquis admitted all that 11141 been said by his Right Honourable Friend, whose local lutowledge gave . him so mutest ad - vantage in this debate. His Majesty', Government really waited till the last WWI) V fit, unwilling to resort - to . these ' , Bilis; but having' obtained the nest opiniens iespectieg the necessity of the measure, they resolved - to hare recourse to it, as the only means of ' preserving the peace and tratuptillity of Ireland. .The House otiold see in the last dispatches from „the Mac ' quit Wellesley, ,thast• then exigencies justified the rued,. sure ; and if so, there could be no objection. There were instances in which Parliament, without reference to the Habeas Corpus Stispensioti Act, had passed measures which did more violence.to theliberties of the Constitution than the. bills under eonideratine. With respect to the p r i nc ipl e of I t ic Bill, it, had beep passed before under similarcircumstanses, 1 and the House were well acquainted with its enactments. If the measure was admissible, the minds of Honourable Mem hers. must be made up. He could go the length of saying', with the Honourable and 'Learned Gentleman, that they were 11113 which every ntau Inuit feel lain in passing; but it was impossible to a amit that the Governhostit were anxious' to use this Act as a 'permanent measure. The Noble Mat;s guess had stated that it was not to go to' greatextent, bitt`he limited to the duration 'of Parliament; and litre lieliadto' regret it hadbeen said, that so long as these Acts 'vete in -force, • the ear of Government would be shut to all•tht vier/niers of Ireland. . The Noble Marquis expressed hiM - se'lf ready,to promote any 'measure for the amelioration of Irel•atid the - Right Hon. Baronet, tie any Hon. Member might propose: The Hon'. and Leari,ed Gentleman blamed the Cabinet - for being divided On the Catholic Question, as if it was the only cktoinet - which had,hetts divided on that subject. The Heil. and Leained Gentltinan had made another discovery, chit;' whenever a change took place in the Cabinet, some friend to the Catholics most be appointed ; and it would either be a 'Protestant or Catholic Cabinet. It was, however, quite use less to occupy the attention of the House hit this subject.' Alf .the Noble Marquis would say was this:—He would he happy , to di.cues all questions relating to the improvement of trot Irish' Laws; and with respect to the'CatholiC Queition; he' was happy to see the Catholics were not disposed to offer theinselves to the attention of Parliament during a tithe' of tumult. They 0001 take the tinieOf peace and order; awl they Would act - prudently. When the qtiestion came fairlyjbe fore the House, be should enelearitur to do his ditty. With re spect to the question. before the-Haute, the Hon. and l,earit ed 6e . ..tremor); and others iti the sam': school of politiei, hied' east censure ori 'the measure because it was not' dictated by -the Marquis Wellesley. - Hr would receive the praise of the Nonte MatqUis, as the greatest authority, but nevi+ - Would consent ! to justify Site measure betutise the Noble fslarqois•wai dictator. He was sure the neop'e o' this &molly would batter live under the litSurreeijost - Ac ,th in plaCe them selves under a dictatorship which mtglit deprive them of tre' seer ciseuf their Minds and'pnblic feelings. The short n'tit;s ti,ta, how aver, ilt this case was, whether beneftt was to be-de rived from the lastirreetiOn Art, as applied to the present state of Ireland; and 'whether it con7ll be altered for the ad ' vantage of the peopleby'alfhwitigtiial by Jury? That qiies ' lion lead been seriously taken icon costSideration by the Lord Lietttehant, Who had a stroog desire to Make atialteration.a the I.l*-iii"ttrat respect. 'flue project wii long' considered, aid the decisi .11 'was, that it trial by/Jury was introduced to the Insucreetiim Act, it would render the law nugatory. if the House re:tortesd to un on - constitutional law; it ~, . .as neces sary to halve it elective Cr mit at all. He begged' kare Vs plead to the charge against the :Magistracy of Ireland.' fhera arght be improper conduct on the part of otte.or two Ma gistrates, but was the whole Magistracy`of Ireland 'there fore to be devaded -? It was said lostice was bought and sold, and it was the fist time the Noble Lind ever beard that money had purchased the hotiour of Magistrates in that conniry. He did not think the case alluded to would turn out to be so 134445 described, but howtver it might turn