The Sun. — London, England, 1853-04-23 00:00:00

IRISH SPIRITS. Captain JONES moved for a return of the total num ber of gallons of spirits distilled and charged with duty in Ireland in each year from 1800 to 1852, both inclu sive ; the total amount of duty received in each year, and the rate of duty per gallon, distinguishing the num ber of gallons charged with duty for consumption ; also a series of other returns on the same subject. Agreed to. CLASSIFICATION OF OUT PORTS. In reply to an HON. MEMBER, Mr. WILSON said he forgot to state last evening that it was the intention of the Government to abolish the present system with regard to the classification of out ports, and to deal with each port according to the circumstances of each. Henceforward the salaries of officers would be fixed, and other arrangements made in reference to the trade at each port, and to the amount collected at it, and not according to any particular clas sification. NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND.) Mr. OTLAIIERTY moved for returns of the entire amount which hal been expended by the Commissioners of National. Education in each of the four provinces of Ireland for the last five years, including grants for build ing, repairs, and fitting up of schools, purchase or rent of agricultural schools, or model farms, free stocks of books, and school requisities, salaries, and gratuities to teachers, expenses of inspection, and all other inci dental charges paid by the C omm i ss i oners , g i v i ng the amount expended in each province separately ; and of the several officers in connection- with the Com missioners of National Education, both in the official establishment in Dublin and throughout the other parts of Ireland. who are in the receipt of 1001. per annum or upwards,- specifying the sum paid to every such officer as annual stipend, travelling charges, house or office rent, or other incidental expenses, with the religious denomi nation-of every such officer, and the county or province to which he belonged when he entered into the service of the Commissioners. Agreed.to. RECORDS IN THE TOWER. Lord D. STUART gave notice that on Monday next he would move for a return of the number of tons of saltpetre kept under a room in which the Parliamentary records were deposited in the Tower of London. METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS ACT. Lord D. STUART gave notice that on the same day he would ask tho First Commissioner of Works and Buildings whether it was his intention to bring in a bill for the amendment of the Metropolitan Buildings Act ? LICENCES FOR TRADE IN IRELAND. On the motion of Sir D. NORREYS, a return was agreed to of the comparative amount now charged for every licence for a trade or profession in Ireland. DUTY ON CURRANTS. • In reply to Mr. EwART, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was not his 'intention to reduce the duty on currants to the same proportion as that on raisins, the former being more valuable. Though he proposed to reduce the duty on raisins to 125., that would still be a higher ad valorem duty than the 15s. now levied on currants. POST-OFFICE. In answer to Sir D. L. EVANS, Mr. WILSON said he was not aware that a petition had been sent to the Postmaster-General a month ago, soliciting him to fix the last delivery of letters at nine, instead of ten o'clock; but he would make inquiries, and ascertain whether, if such a petition had been received, any steps had been taken with reference to it. BARNSTAPLE ELECTION. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said a petition had been pre sented to-night on the subject of the Barnstaple election committee, but he would. suggest that no steps should be taken in it until after the motion for a commission had been disposed of. Mr. S. WORTLEY said he had no intention to found any motion upon it. DOCKYARD PROMOTIONS. On the motion of an How. 141E3fBER the minute of council relative to dockyard promotions was ordered to be laid on the table of the house. BOARD OF HEALTH. On the motion that the house at its rising do adjourn until Monday next, Col. HARCOURT rose to complain that a return he bad moved fo r as f ar b ac k as t h e 12th of March last had not yet been laid on the table. The return related to the n um b er of persons employed as surveyors or engi neers under the Board of H ea lth, speci f y i ng where so employed somethin g i n th e s h ape of a return had been feet. laid on the table of th e h ouse, but it was grossly imper- Sir W. MOLESWORTH said the return had been laid upon the table thou g h it was not printed ; and he was informed byThtheeo 8h:241:.e, of Health that it was per fectly correct. tnasblwhich the hon. member complained of were attribu° not to the neglect of the Board of Health, but to eti manne r in which the motion for the return was worded! SOUTH SEA AND OTHER BILL. ITIES COMm- TATION On the motion that the Speaker do leave the ch a i r for the house to go into committ ee on this bill, Sir F. KELLY said it had been his intention to have moved an instruction to the com m itt ee, or to have sub mitted some other form of amend men t under which it would have been competent for him to call the attention of the house to the very important principles involved in this measure, and especially to the great and important objection that it provided for a large increase to the capi tal amount of the national debt—(hear, hear)—and also guaranteed payment for a period of forty years of the un reasonable and extravagant sum of 2/. 15s. per annum, as the income or dividend on the stock proposed to b e But having understood that some ~ F A-, hear.) • • arise to that " - ` 1"1:j ' • orbital objection might course, ..e";•`;'-=' - it f..4•li.‘( : Wasi,hai he could, consistently with due i-ff-t,--' :: — 44 v i,h e* . 'W s of the house, call attention .. to . the ''' -''- atriWOrcbriimittee, it was not his intention to Z, .., y .. f or t h e ‘ < $:,,1 4 P ,-TiAtt ' -:n10110.4k ret om o`;4- ,:-- '- -,- Cr- an I • the chair. S THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 23, 1853, person. the .But Church had tt he should enter upon the entire a lways been- a body de- But when the second clause came under the considera dependent upon the governing p ower of the country. tion of the commi e the e bill, and state his objections to About 400 years ago, all that which was at present the subject embraced by property of - the Church - of England was enjoyed by her it. (Hear, hoar.) The house then went into committee on the bill; Mr. rival. It had been give n to the Church of Rome by kings and princes. But, .nevertheless, in course of time Bouverie in the chair. The first clause was agreed to • and on the second, which it was considered that this property ought to be other wise disposed of, and it was therefore summarily taken f provides oi that a t t h t e h i r e p s r te op ek rie r t e o ee is i o v f e 't B h 2 e l. Th me ree . p N er e C w enls . . i m os a . y , away from the Roman Catholic Church and handed over 1. 9 1 r 01. 2/..105. per cent., or 100/. Exchequer Bond, carrying interes at 21. 15s. per cent. not later then the Ist of Sep t ethers. (" No, no.") He was at a loss to under- Ind that cry ; he certainly thought he had given h a t c t o h re• tember, 1864, and after at 21. 10s. per cent. rect statement of the facts. The truth was, Sir F. KELLY solicited the attention of the committee property of the Church of England did not re t st a . upon any contract, but upon the c onviction existim in the whilst he offered some observations, not merely upon the mila ds of the people that they had the greatest interest principle of thehill, but upon its provisi ons . Th e princi in re taining the property in the hands of its present ple of the measure wa s unexam pl e d i n ex t ent and impor h olders. Upon the general question, then, this right of tance. It a ff ec t e d a sum amount i ng to 'not less than property could offer no answer to the bill. They could 100,000,0001. sterling, and u lti ma t e l y it m i ght apply to 500,000,000/., if not to the entire am oun t o f th e cap i tal of not, in the present advanced state o f Canada, safel y sa y to the of dealing w Canadiith publicans that the pro y perty should thenroet as have t w h as ep d o e w a e l r t the national debt. If a ft er th e grea t and brilliant effort with in this country. In conclusion, true friends of the Church of oratory and reas on i ng w ith w hi c h the house was. at once that he did not believe the the noble earl said delighted and instru c t e d l as t M on d ay, when he, at least, leveretobll ; e found in the opponents , but in the supporters cou ld say he was left under the wand of the ench an t er , he f the hi and he called upon their lordships not to (Sir F. Kelly) now ventured to advance into the wide field throw away the opportunity of effecting a settlement of finance which had been opened by the right honourable which would allay long existing distrust and ill-feeling, gentleman, and upon the threshold expressed his entire and the further delay of which would undoubtedly pro- dissent from the main pridciple of the scheme of this bill, yoke consequences for which he was sure their lordships he assured the committee it was not without much diffi were not prepared. Canada was now prosperous and deuce and some apprehension. But ho felt it his duty to loyal • and he warned their lordships not to attempt to disturb so happy a state of things. call attenti on t o th e su bj ect, for the scheme was one o f The Earl of DERBY felt himself called upon to re- a very peculiar character full of intricacies and difficulties. mark upon the inquiry of the noble earl who had just To the clear and enlightened mind of the right honourable down, with respect to the way in which he (the Earl of gentleman, to an intellect which, like his, rejoiced in com- Derby) should vote on this occasion. From the state- plicated subtleties, such a task as he had undertaken might ment which he (the Earl of Derby) had made, the noble be easy and pleasant , but it must be his (Sir F. Kelly's) earl must see that while, on the one hand, he cou ld not consent to adopt the bill in its present shape, he was, no with n - o other . aid than a commonan as, understanding, to endeavour to attract attentiond ordinary to the on the other, very anxious to call their lordships atten- exact character of the details of this financial scheme-a tion to a modification which he could only propose in scheme which he was bound to say appeared to him replete committee. Taking that view, he wou ld w i sh the bill with perplexities, and abounding from beginning to end now to be read a second time ; and although he had no with contingencies and uncertainties. (Hear, hear.) The right to make any personal request of the right rev. pre- bill provided, in the first place, for the extinction and re late, he would venture to suggest that it would be for demption of certain South Sea and other minor stocks or i the convenience of their lord s hip s th a t t h e amendment annuities of the value or amount of about 0,000,QQ0/._star should be withdrawn. (R ear , h ear. ) - ling. To this he could have no objection. It was no doubt The Bishop of EXETER adopted the suestion, and expedient that these minor stocks should be merged in the withdrew the amendm en t. gg larger stock composin g , the national debt. That object, however, might be attained with the greatest facility, look- The Duke of NEWCASTLE roosed to take the ing at the present state of the money market, either by committee ou the bill on Monday next; and it would be giving the requisite notice and at once paying off the an advantage that the noble earl should at once state holders, raising 10,000,0001. for the purpose, or in any way that might be deemed expedient. But the right hon. gentle the nature of the amendment. man e . vidently conceived that the time had arrived when ' The Earl of DERBY said that the bill had only been certain great - and important objects, which might have delivered that that day ; and as the committee was to be curred to the minds of other Ministers when in office, but taken so soon after the second reading, the noble duke which had never been submitted to Parliament in any was hardly entitled to ask for the terms of the amend- distinct or tangible' form, might b e accom pli s h e d. These ment. Having, however, obtained a copy of the bill objects were three in number-first, to effect a large and while it was passing through the other house, he had substantial reduction in the capital amount of the debt; framed the amendment, and although he would not bind secondly, the creation of a permanent 21 per cent: stock ; himself to the exact words, he would lay it on the table and thirdly, the creation and issue, for the benefit of the at once. mercantile community, and the r e li e f o f th e public in. The Duke of NEWCASTLE had not been aware that general, of Treasury, or Exchequer bonds, transferable the bill had only been delivered so lately ; but at any from hand to hand. If it were clear from the provisions o rate it was read a first time a fortn i g ht a g o, so tha t there of the bill that any one of th ese th ree great o bj ects could was no undue haste in its progres s . be successfully accomplished, or even a preparation m a d e , had had th Several noble lords here statedor a foundation laid, or the fi rs t s t ep t a k en , cons i s t en tl y that they e _ays ago „ with good faith to the natio na l cre dit or , an d th e d uty bill delivered to them several d ; and upon this which every minister owed to the State, of securing a fair the Earl of DERBY acknowledged that he must then be and not disadvantageous bargain for the country-if they mistaken, or any one of them could be accomplished or even cora- The bill was then read a second time, and their lord- menced without violating the great constitutional princi ships (at half-past eleven) adjourned. pie that the amount of the national debt ought not to be increased, unless necessity called for it-the bill would have received his sincere and cordial support. But after bestowing careful and minute attention upon the scheme, its intricacies, complications, and uncertainties, he had arrived at a strong and conscientous conviction, which he hoped to be successful in impressing upon the committee, that, as a whole, it was inconsistent, impracticable, mis chievous, and unjust-unjust, he meant, because it was unnecessary. (Hear, hear.) To make a large 'and sub stantial addition to the capital of the national debt,' and to make it under circumstances which led to a reasonable apprehension that the addition would bye-and-bye be multiplied twenty and even fifty-fold, was surely object ionable ; and therefore he felt called upon to oppose the principle of the bill, unless the right honourable gentleman consented so far to modify it as to strike out what he should hereafter call alternative No. 2 from the second clause, in order to avoid any increase to the amount of the national debt, and also for the payment of 21. 15s. per cent. upon the capital affected for a period of forty years. (Hear, hear.) He would now proceed to state, not in legal language, but in language intelligible to all, what the scheme was, and the three alternatives or b arga i ns w hi c h it proposed the holders of the 10,000,0001. South Sea and other stock. As originally proposed, the scheme might have embraced 500,000,0001. but as now proposed it would be limited under the bill to 30,000,0001. lie would suppose the owner of 1001. South Sea Stock to come under the operation of the bill, and to be about to consider in what position he would be placed towards the Govern ment. He might receive 100/. ; that was, he might be paid off at par if he thought proper. Considering that all these were three per cent. stocks, and that all three per cent. stocks of the company were substantially at par, this was a very obvious mode of settling with th e h o ld er . B u t the right - hon. gentleman proposed to submit to the option, net only of the holders of the 10,000,0001. of minor stocks, but of the holders of the 30,000,0001. of Three per Cent. Consols, and it might be to the holders of the whole 500,000,0001. Consols, one or the other of these alterna tives. But before proceeding further he must observe that the right honourable gentleman had stated-and stated necessarily, otherwise his scheme would at once be suicidal -that his three propositions were alternatives or equiva lents. This, indeed, was the essence of the proposal. So that any one holding South Sea Stock or Three per Cents., would find himself in this position, that he might accept either No. 1, No. 2, or No. 3 of the alternatives, accord ing as it might be his interest. N ow , a grea t objection, he felt was, that whereas these which were represented as equivalents were not equivalents, or anything approaching to equivalent • for it would be found on practical experi ment, if the bill were passed, when it was too late to apply a remedy, that the difference between the one and the other, especially between No. 2 and No. 3, was so great that the people would wonder how the House of Commons could possibly have entertained the scheme. (Hear, hear.) Another objection he felt was, that tho Government, having the power of accomplishing- the three great objects to which ho had adverted, instead of proceeding to invite information as to what ought to be the real terms of the bargain, and taking the steps which any Ministry attempt. ing arch an operation ought to have taken, had acted ex clusively upon their own judgment. Other Ministries had issued tenders to ascertain how the country would take that which they upon the part of the State offered to grant. But instead of applyin g suc h a t es t t o the ques tion of what ought to be the terms of this great bargain, the right honourable gentleman-whose ability and genius he was the last to question or undervalue-had as sumed to himself the faculty of all knowledge. The right honourable gentleman, in framing this bargain, had left himself no option and no opportunity of making better terms ' but he had assumed, as if by i n t u iti on, th at he possessed the required information, and he had drawn his three propositions upon data or principles of his own, in-as he (Sir F. Kelly) presumed to think-entire igno rance as to what would be the extent, if he had invited tenders, to which the moneyed interest would have accepted the terms. Every holder of 1001. South Sea Stock or other stock had then the means of converting it into 1001. ster ling ; and the question was which of the three proposals he would accept. The first was this-that for his 1001. he should accept a 3A per cent. stock, of which the capital should be 821. 10s. ; that was to say, he might receive 821.105. capital stock for his 1001. sterling at a dividend'of 2/. 17s. 9d., guaranteed for a period of forty years. What this alternative might be in connection with the others the time had not yet arrived for him to consider. What 'it was, standing by itself, if proposed by itself, would be a fair subject for consideration. It was one which, even if the bill had been confined to it, would leave the most ex perienced and sagacious among them some difficulty in de- termining. It might well be considered a most important question whether 30,000,0001. of stock should be created by payments of 1001., guaranteed 21. 17s. 9d. for forty years. But it was neither for him nor for the committee to say whether it was probable any one of these proposals would be accepted. If they should not, if they were so disadvantageous to the public creditor that no one could be found to accept the best of them, then the bill w ou ld fall to the gr oun d a d ea d l e tt er, the 10,000,0001. of stock must be paid off, and some other means be found for rais ing it, and no great harm would be done. But he was not dealing with that case. It must be assumed, in order to deal with the effect of the/bill, that the right hon. gentle. man was right in holding that at least some one of the three alternatives would be accepted by the public creditor. Upon that assumption, looking at the present price of stocks, with the Three per Cents. at par, the scheme was just with regard to the Three per Cents., and no more. Looking, however, at the state of the money market, the condition of the country as regarded the precious metals, the state of Europe and the world-all these being practi cal considerations and elements in the calculations bearing upon the bill, he did not pretend to say whether any one of the three alternatives, when thrown open to the market, would be accepted. Perhaps one and perhaps another might be accepted, if each stood alone ; but he entertained a profound belief that no two would, to any substantial amount, be accepted. The alternative No.' 2 was to re ceive for the same sum of 100/. sterling 21. 15s. per annum guaranteed for forty years - upon a capital of 1101., as a con sideration of the 100/. 'the third was to receive 21. 15s. per annum for a period which was left in uncertainty:- which was to depend upon the pleasure of the Government, ranging from one to ten. years, and for the remaining years to have a guaranteed dividend of 21. 10s. per annum only, and that upon a capital of 1001. He would for the present pass over No. 1, which might or might not present to the fundholder a bargain he might deem satisfactory ; but he could not do so without saying, whatever might be the r e suit of the bill, that th e country was , deeply indebted to the right hon. gentleman for having, for the first time, submitted to Parliament a scheme for effecting a large and substantial reduction of th e na ti onal debt. Although he would not pretend to guess, and it would be rash in any man to say whether this proposal presented an acceptable bargain or not to the stockholder, he could not pass from it without observing that it would undoubtedly effect 'a national saving of which it was almost impossible to speak in terms of exaggeration, for should this first alternative be accepted by not only the holders of the ten millions of South Sea and other stock, but by the holders of the 500 millions of Three per Cent. Stock, a saving to the country of nearly ninety millions sterling in the capital amount of the national debt would be effected without the increase, on the contrary, with a diminution of the annual expendi ture of the country. If the holders of the whole 510 mil lions of stock would be content, and at once come forward and accept this first alternative, which he believed to be a fair and just and reasonable bargain, he conceived no mem suure.which any finance minister in any country ever effected great would approach a t proach in magnitude and importance, and in the an extensive benefit to the country, which would f result from such an operation. And why ? Because they sand pounds have a reduction in. the national expenditure somewherehen about seven or eight, or nine hundred thou the capital oix)?teioeannum, and an immediate reduction in that the guarantee of f tional debt, as he had already said, of sterling. (Hear.) It might be true 21. 17s. 9d. was for too long a period. or , a per cent. on he of lven that in five or ten years a reduction of a interest of capital might make a difference of millions on t great sums. But, however that might be, he rejoiced roethink, on the high authority of the right hon. gentleman, th t this bargain was likely He ti :V:l Bl to be accepted to a largelatioio.iii, ta ld t p ed a:s b f e r g o a m n which he felt it his duty to that to No. 2 and No. 3, make some observations. by adding 10 per cent. to the amounnsthoef of the national debt as was brought Nvitapltt, al of so much a sum which, applied to 10 millions of South Sea kt n o n c - k and 30 millions of Three per Cents., to which the bill was HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY, The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Edinburgh High-street and Railway Station, &c. Bill, was read a third time. MAIDSTONE ELECTION. Mr. HUTT appeared at the bar and reported that the committee on this petition had determined that George Dod, Esq., was not duly elected for Maidstone, and that the last election for the borough, so far as concerned the said Geo. Dod, Esq., was a void election. The com mittee also found that he waS by his agents guilty of treating, but it was not proved to have been committed with his knowledge or.consent. KNARESBORO' ELECTION. The members of the committee on this petition were called to the table and sworn. POST-OFFICE. Lord SEYMOUR moved for returns of salaries, wages, and allowances of the Post-office d e p ar t men t generally, divided into branche; and classes, and showing the number of persons employed, and the amount paid under each class, in the year ending the sth of January, 1835, and in every subsequent year to the sth day of January, 1851 ; England and Wales—Branch 1, Me tropolitan ; Branch 2, Provincial ;—Branch 3, Colonial and parts abroad. And similar returns for Scotland and Ireland. Agreed to. now limited, would give at once an addition to the capital ' hence the Government woad' proba'bly obtain better of the national debt of no less than four millions sterling. terms), because he was of opinion that a great national If he stood alone upon that objection, he said it was unans- benefit would be effected, and the amount of the national werable and insuperable. (Hear, hear.) A war, or any dabt pro tante would be reduced. (Hear, hear.) With re other great national exigency, might compel the country gard to the Exchequer bonds he felt, in common with the to submit to the increase of the national debt, and justify right honourable gentleman, the great benefit they would, them in agreeing to that increase, but he ventured to deny confer on the commercial community.; but he would sug that the smallest increase ought to be made unless in a case gest for the right honourable gentleman's consideration of imperative necessity, in which the honour of the coml. w hether by issuing so large an amount he would not drive try was concerned ; and he should show, from the state- the whole of his Exchequer bills out of the market. He ments and admissions of the right hon. gentleman himself, o bj ec ted to the bill in so far as, if passed into law, it would that this-not to use the word wanton-was a perfectly enable the stockholders to exchange their stock against useless and unnecessary sacrifice of three or four millions, alternative No. 2, and he called upon the Government to or whatever sum would ultimately be added to the capital do justice to the public by refusing to complete such a dis of the debt. (Hear, hear.) The argument put forward advantageous and extravagant bargain, and by trying first with all the eloquence of the right hon. gentleman and of what might be done to 'induce the holders of stock to ac the Secretary to the Treasury, was, that this sacrifice of cept the transferable bonds. By that means they would three, or four, or 50 millions; if applied to the whole debt, avoid the necessity of increasing the capital of the national was well made to secure the inestimable advantage of a debt, would have time to acquire a larger amount of expe two-and-a-half per cent. stock. Unless the right hon. gen- rience than they at present possessed, and would lay the tleman himself was greatly in error, he might obtain that foundation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, an object advantage without the sacrifice, without the guarantee of which they deemed of such great national importance. 21. 15s. per cent„ on cheaper and better terms, and left the He concluded by moving that the clause embodying alter debt at its present amount. It was also said that the addi- native No. 2be expunged from the bill. tion of 10 per cent. to the national debt was really not an Mr. SPOONER objected to tying up the hands of the evil ' • and on a former evening he was severely taken to Chanceller of the Exchequer for forty years by entering task for having treated, or rather having been thought to into a guarantee for that period. At the present moment have treated, the nominal amount of the national debt as the holder of 1001. stock received 31. of interest, but it so much money in the possession of the stockholder. He was proposed to offer him 821. 10s. at the end of forty would not for a moment assert that the possessor of 1101. years, and for this guarantee the nation would not save stock was the possessor of 1101. sterling. They all knew more than 2s. 3d. per cent. The operation might be per that 1101. stock was worth just as much and no more as it formed in a short time, with more benefit to the country, would produce by sale in the market, and undoubtedly the and he would therefore propose that the guarantee should holder of that stock was not possessed of 1101. It was be limited to the term of twenty years. argued that it was immaterial to add 10 per cent. to the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if be capital, because it was a mere nominal sum, and the could believe with his honou ra bl e f r i en d th a t th e proposed debtor could not call on the State to pay it off. Of course the same argument would go to make it immaterial whether guarantee was too favourable t o th e pu bli c cre dit or, h e would at once accede to hi s mo ti on ; but this was a ques the debt was 500/. or 8001., or a thou sa nd milli ons . But he said in the present times, with the present prospects of tion of calm, careful, deliberate opinion, and after endea the country as to th e va l ue o f mone y, an d as t o th e ra t e o f vour i ng t o f orm th e b est judgment he could upon it, he interest, to add to any stock in existence or to be created was convinced that the guarant ee propose d i n t h e bi ll was 10 per cent., while the interest was to be 2i per cent., w a s to do great injustice to the State and to the people which that which the house should ad o pt. Th e h onoura b le and old members of that house represented. Who could say how learned gentleman opposite appeared t o thi n k th a t no soon the time might not arrive when it would be to the h ar m would be done by om itti ng ono of the alternatives contra opinion. ( o f Ha the r , Hear interest of the State to pay off even 2i per cent. stock ? offered c This bill dealt with a period of forty years. He must re- Exchequer) to mind the house that forty years ago the Three per Cent.y ry Stock was at 60. Since 1813 the price of Three per cent. hear.) His view was, that the dignity o f P ar li amen t t ) he was hers of an of en sto ticrekl. He on t (the Chancellor Stock had increased from 60 to 100, and the rate of interest would be lowered by such a proceeding, and that the had been diminished from 5 to 3 per cent. In the forty wisdom of Parliament and of the Government would be years now completed the interest of money in the funds exhibited in a 1 - Microns light, if they came out with offers had fallen 2 per cent. Looking then to the increasing corn- altogether unequal to the just expectations of the stock merce and prosperity of the country, to the vast amount holders. (Hear, hear.) An honourable gentleman near of capital at their disposal, at the great influx of capital him had given notice of a motion to limit the amount of from foreign states, where the same confidence as to poli- stock convertible into the proposed Three-and-a-Half per tical affairs did not exist, was it extravagant or reasonable Cents. He could understand the meaning and object of to suppose, trusted as this country was to an indefinite that motion, because if their knowledge was limited it was amount by the whole civilised world, that in the next forty right they should limit the range of their experiment. years the interest on the money in the funds would fall All along he had found great difficulty when dealing with from 3to 2'per cent. (Hear, h ear ) ? Wh enever th at fall this subject, in consequence of the ignorance whic pre took place, and the time came to pay off the debt, vailed. The opinions of h the honourable member Would find that it was not were all well enough; but those opinions would not help altogether immaterial whether the debt was 100 or 110 him when he went to the stock market and endeavoured millions, since on every hundred pounds they would have to transact business there. (Hear.) It was, no doubt, to pay 101. more than if this operation had never been very satisfactory to know the opinion of any honourable sanctioned by Parliament.. But it was not in the in- member of that house with reference to a subject of such crease of the national debt, it was.not on the improvidence vast importance- as the present ; but that opinion was as of the bargain by which the right hon. gentleman bound light as a feather in the stock market, and would not, he the countryffor the long period of 40 years, but by the com- was afraid, assist him much in his financial operations. , parison which he should institute between N o , 2 and No. (A laugh.) But it was important to bear is mind what 3 that he rested his great objection to the provisions of this his proposal really was. They were now about to pay to bill. It was said these were equivalents. Let them take the holders of 500;000,0001. of Three per. Cent. Stock, either the case, and suppose a gentleman being a holder of Three perpetual annuities of 31. per cent. per annum, or 1001. in per Cent. Stock. to convert 1001. into No. 2, and another hard cash, and that 1001. not taken piecemeal, but at once, 1001. into No. 3, what did he get by No. 3? He paid 1001. after the expiry of twelve months' notice. They were or 1001. Three per Cent . Stock, which was now the same under such conditions at present that, unless they could thing ;he received a guarantee, for from one to ten years, amend them, it was perfectly hopeless and impossible to of 21. 15s. per year. And here, in passing, he would ob- attempt an operation upon the capital of the debt. There serve, it seemed a sort of uncertain and shifting guarantee, was no man in his senses who would say, either in the pre and that they were invited to sanction a bargain being en- sent, or in a more favourable, or, indeed, in any conceiva tered into on the part of the State without knowing what ble state, that at the end of twelve month's notice they the terms were, leaving it to the option of the Government would be prepared to pay up the whole of 500,000,0001. of to give a guarantee for one year or for ten years. He beg- debt. It was therefore he came to the house and said, ged to ask if the right hon. gentleman possessed the evi- " Let us feel our way gradually-let us proceed upon the dence and the basis for the calculation ; and if he did not principal of varying the terms and conditions on which the possess them, he was at a loss toknow how the calculations public debt is held-let `us endeavour to improve them could be made at all-how it was he was unable to tell the likewise, both as to the rate of interest immediately avail committee whether the guarantee was to be for one, for able and the plan of subsequent redemption." By adopt five or for ten years? lie (Sir F. Kelly), and better cal- ing that course; they would not subject themselves to the cul;tors than himself, might be inclined to think the corn- necessity of paying an enormous sum upon twelve months' mutation exceedingly beneficial if the guarantee was for notice, but would secure the terms, which, while perfectly one or two years, but very disadvantageous indeed if it ex- fair to the holders of stock, would relieve the public in tended to so larg e a period as ten years. (H ear , h ear .) p ar t from a heavy annual burden. That was a great ob- Turning again to the comparision. What would the gen- sect of policy. The terms they offered must be liberal, tleman receive upon his 1001. in No. 3, even w ith th e u t- an d h e b e li eve d it wou ld b e f ar better to' offer too much most'extent of guarantee which the Government was au- than too little. -- (Hear, hear.) If they offered too much, thorisect to give ? He would receive for his 1001., 21. 15s. a their experiment was but limited, and when they came to year far ten years, and 21. 10s. a year, and no more, for the repeat or extend it they could contract their terms, and remaining thirty years . ; and now and until he was paid take advantage of the experience they had acquired. On off, he was going to say for ever, his capital would be 100/., the other hand, if they wont into the market and offered and 1001, only. But what would he receive for his 1001. in too little, he had no hesitation in saying that there would No. 2? He would bring forward 1001. only, as in the other be a reaction highly unfavourable to the scheme. (Hear, case, but he would receive from the Government a guaran- hear.) What was the purpose of the alternative before the tee of 21. 15s. per cent. of capital of 1101. Substantially house ? ' It was this--that they should say to the holder of speaking, he would receive only 21. 10s. for forty years on 1001. of stock, "If you will submit to an annual loss of No. 3as contrasted with 21. 15s. for forty years on No. 2. 2s. 3d. upon your dividend, and likewise to the acceptance In one he would have a capital of 1001., in the other he of 821. 10s. of capital stock in Three-and-a-Half per Cents., would have a capital of 1101. All he could say was, , that instead of your 1001., we will give - you a guarantee for a if these propositions were identical, if these two bargains period of forty years." What did the public gain ? It were precisely equivalent and the same, he should hence- gained an imm e di a t e rem ission o f about ith per cent, upon forth have no faith in arithmetic, or in the organs of his the interest, and the chance of the redemption of the capi own understanding. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the right tal after forty years, at a reduction of 171. 10s. per cent. hon. gentleman would meet these objections with that fair- He was far from saying that the public gained a certainty ness, openness, and candour, which belonged to his charac- of redemption at the end of forty years for 821, los. He ter, and explicitly inform the house upon what principle he thought, judging from experience, that in no long time could call these two contracts equivalent, one giving 1001. after ,the period mentioned an o pp or t un it y f or re d empt i o n capital and 21. 10s. inte res t f or f or t y y ears , and the other would occur, but he would no t sa y it wou ld occur exactly giving 1101. capital and 21. 15s. i n t eres t forty years. at the end of f or ty y ears . A t all events, however, the (Hear, hear.) They were told that these transferable public gained ith per cent. upon the interest. and after bonds would be so valuable to the mercantile community 40 years the power of redemption, whenever the financial that they would make up to the holders of them the entire state of the cenntry would enable them to exercise it. difference between the advantage of one bargain and the (Hear, hear.) He thought that these were very consider disadvantage of the other. Was that so ? Would theft able advantages indeed, and for his own part he would not bonds, on which the State would pay 21, 10s. for forty consider it an improvident transaction if the House of years, and acknowledge 1001. of debt, be so much more Commons were disposed to act upon the whole public debt valuable that the public would accept them as willingly as upon such terms at the present moment, and undoubtedly registered stock of 1101, and carrying 21. 15s. interest for he should regard the Minister as fortunate who should be the same period of time ? If that was so, perhaps the right the instrument of effecting such an operation. (Hear.) At hon. gentleman would tell the committee and the country the 'same time he did not object to limit the operation for why he did not stop with No. 3, why he restricted the the present, because it would still be in his power to come amount, why he did not raise the whole debt on such back to Parliament and ask leave to extend it. He hoped terms, instead of adding 50 millions to it, as he would by he had now laid the question clearly before the committee, No. 2 ? He was at a loss to conceive any answer to that and he confidently submitted that no case had been made question. In no instance could injustice be done to the out for diminishing the guarantee proposed in the bill. If stockholder, because nothing was compul sor y -h e m i g ht the stock so guaran t ee d s h ou ld b e t a k en up b y a portion of or might not accept the third alternative. He therefore the present holders of stock, that would not be considered would ask the right hon. gentleman to explain to the cora- as pledging the house to offer the same guarantee to the mittee how, consistent with his duty to the country whose rest of the stockholders. The house in that case would as pecuniary interests were entrusted to him, he could pro- a matter of course imprdve the terms offered-improve pose or consent to give to any stockholder 21. 15s. for forty them, he meant, as regarded the interests of the public years and acknowledge 1101. debt, when on his ow n state- but in the meantime, in order that the scheme might be ment he could easily obtain the same capital at 21. 10s. for favourably received and established, it was necessary that forty years and acknowledge only-1001. debt. If these two a good guarantee should be given. (Hear.) bargains were applied to the whole body of Three per Cent, Mr. SPOONER wished to know if the present discus stockholders in the kingdom by number three, the State -lion was limited to the South Sea and other minor st oc k s , would acknowledge a debt of 500 millions, whi ch when ever or if it applied to the whole of the Three per Cent. Stock ? there was a fall in the rate of public interest, could be paid The CHANCELOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that off with that amount of sterling money, and the interest in the clause before the house had reference solely to the the forty years would be 13,750,0001. whereas by No. 2 the minor stocks. . State would acknowledge a debt of 550,000,0001. and Mr. SPOONER said that in these circumstances he the interest in the forty years would be 15,000,0001. So would withdraw his motion, for, while he strongly oh that in the one case they would add to the debt 50,000,0001. jected to tying up the h an d s o f t h e fi nance m i n i s t er f or so whilst in the other they would no t a dd t o it at all, and long a period as forty years, still he did not think the save in interest in forty years 1,250,0001. He believed, minor stocks of sufficient importance to justify his inter therefore, he had not used too strong a phrase when he vention at that stage of the discussion. said it was a perfect delusion to hold out these two pro- Sir F. KELLY agreed with the last speaker that'it was posals as equivalent and identical. (Hear, hear.) To his unnecessary to offer any objection to that part of the bill utter astonishment, he had almost said consternation, the which related to the South Sea and minor stocks ; but he right honourable gentleman told the house the other night thought it right to state, for the information of the Chan that these bonds would be so , much more valuable than the cellor of the Exchequer, that he should raise the very same registered stock as to countervail the difference of bargain. question when they came to consider the guarantee for 40 Did the right honourable gentleman remember what he years to 30, 00 000 1 . of stock. He coincided in the opinion was saying, or the import of his words ? Did he mean tho expressed by the right hon. gentleman opposite, that it house to assume that the preference for transferable bonds would be better to offer too much than too little, still he over registered stock was worth i per cent. on the interest thought the terms proposed were too liberal, and when the and 10 per cent. on the capital ? Did the hon. member proper time arrived he would submit a motion to the house reflect on the value of i per cent. per annum when applied upon the subject. on the whole capital debt? Again, he would ask why, if The. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they -one stock was so much preferred, did the right honourable were now dealing with the clause which related exclusively gentleman withhold the bonds from the public ? The Go- to the South Sea and other minor stocks ; but it appeared vernment had to pay ,a large sum annually to the Bank of from the statement of the hon. and learned gentleman op- England for the management of registered stock, but with posite, that' while he would not object to the 40 years' these bonds no management would be necessary, and guarantee in regard to those stocks, he intended to raise therefore it could not be on the ground of expense. What the question when the committee came to' consider the he said on a former evening he ventured to repeat now, more important portions of th e sc h eme . H e only des i red that there was no real, substanti a l diff erence i n th e value to point out to the hon. and learned gentleman that it of transferable bonds and registered stock. It was true in would be better to discuss the point in connexion with the this country he was speaking without experience. Finan- question he had himself raised with respect to the Two cial ministers of this country had never yet thought fit to and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. The course hitherto pursued issue transferable bonds of the nature of these Exchequer had been in strict accordance with established and consti• bonds, and it would be a problem difficult to solve and a tutional usage. Although the resolutions of the house had question not very easy to answer, why they had not issued no effect in point of law, yet, with regard to the commu such bonds, but for one consideration.- Perhaps the right tation and redemption of stock, the course of proceeding hon. gentleman would find in this scheme that his Ex- had always been that the resolutions of the house were chequer bills would disappear from the market, and appear acted upon by the parties whose d u ty it wou ld b e, un d er before him in a form not ver y pl easan t to his eyes. He the act of Parliament, to give the requisite notice of the might find that instead of having 170,00,000/. 0r18,000,0001, redemption. Accordingly, acting strictly upon that prin of unfunded debt, at lb per cent. interest, it would be see- ciple, Mr. Speaker had communicated to the holders of perseded by ExChequer bonds at 2i per cent, for a 'certain stock the resolutions at which the house had arrived. Now number of years, and 2i per cent. afterwards. That might the resolutions ran in these terms-that the holders of be the reason why bonds had not been issued in this. minor stock should give notice within a given period of country. But he was at a loss to imagine bow the Secre their intention to claim such and such stock in lieu of Lary to the Treasury could state that these bonds would be what they now hold. Their right therefore to give such worth 101. per cent. more than registered stock, and that notice had certainly been in existence for a considerable the two descriptions would ran parallel with each other in number of days, and although he was not in a condition to the market. True, they had no practical experience, but say whether any such persons had given such notice, or they could move by the light of experience derived from whether they had even formed an intention to do so, yet other channels. In France and in Holland and in other he felt himself some doubts and scruples about any inter commercial countries of Europe, bonds to the amount •of ference at all with the terms upon which the house had millions and millions transferable exactly as these Ex- declared its intention to deal with those minor stocks. chequer bonds, were issued by the Government and were Mr. F. KELLY declared himself much astonish e d a t in circulation in those cou n t r i es or elsewhere. If the Go- what had just fallen from the right hon. gentleman. He vernment wished to know whether Exchequer bonds would never understood that in adopting the resolutions brought be higher in the market than registered stock, the question forward by the right hon. gentleman-a step which the could be answered by reference to where Exchequer bonds right hon. gentleman himself represented as necessary to or similar securities existed. If any one wanted to invest enable him to introduce a bill-the house pledged itself to 10,0001. in Paris, or Amsterdam, or Hamburg, the broker support the whole of the alternatives offered to stock would ask whether he desired certificates to bearer, or .to holders. None of the alternatives, he contended, had yet be registered as the stockholder, and he would find both received the direct sanction of the house, nor had the descriptions at the same price, convertible one into the house agreed to the issue of any such notice as that which other, If he wanted to buy French Routes or Dutch the right hon. gentleman stated had been sent to the holders bonds at a distance, no doubt they would be i or i per of minor stock. cent. higher for the convenience of transfer ; but no sub- Mr. HUME took precisely the same view as the hon. stantial difference existed, and it was a p er f ec t f a ll acy t o and learned gentleman, and he considered it a dangerous suppose that these Exchequer bonds would be worth more precedent that any notice binding the house to the alter than the merest, inappreciable trifle, in comparison with natives embodied in the bill should have been given to the registered stock, provided they were both issued upon the holders of stock. With respect to the general question, he same conditions. Then how stood this question betv eon strongly objected to increasing the capital of -the national No. 2 and No. 3? The Government brought forward this debt, thcsigh the plan now proposed might be safely tried, scheme, and alleged to the public that they might accept he thought, as an experiment. He had no objection to a 1001. stock in No. 3, or 1101. stock in No. 2, and that they reasonable amount of security being given, and unques were equivalent; and they told the house, and he presumed tionably there was much truth in the remark of the Chan the right honourable gentleman would tell the committee, cellor of the Exchequer that, in order to secure the esta that they considered these two stocks precisely identical blishment of the stock, it was necessary to offer superior and of the same value, and that 30 millions of No. 3 would terms, be as likely to be taken as 30 millions of No. 2. If that The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that were so, he could only say that the stockholders of this both the hon. and learned gentleman and the hon. member country were in the singular position of knowing no dif- for Montrose had entirely misapprehended him. He never Terence between 1001. and 110/., and between V. 10s. and intended to convey the idea that the house had pledged 21. 15s. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Then what would be itself to pass the three alternatives emb raeed in the bill. the result? The consequence would be, not as the right What he did say was that legal notice had been given by honourable gentleman facetiously ob serve d, th a t li mbs an officer of that house to the holders of the minor stocks, would be broken in the rush for No. 3, but not until No. 2 J that certain resoluti o ns had been adopted by the commit was exhausted would No. 3 be accept e d, an d th en only tee and reported to the house, so that the parties inques in case the demand ' for transferable bonds sh ou ld b e ; tion might have time to form their judgments on the sub large enough to induce the • fundhOlder to su b m it t o tject. That did nyst bind the house to anything. what would he a great sacrifice as compared with I Mr. SPO ONVti, withdrew his amendment. . o the advantages obtained under No. 2. E ven sup- The CHANCULLOR of the EXCHEQUER -I regr et t posing both stocks were wholly take n u p, th a t find, after the - very kind manner in which the honourable would not lessen the gross injustice i n fli c t e d on the ' and learned gentleman has referred to me, and after the his ' holders of No. 3. He was quite aware o f th e grea t i m - ' f avoura bl e tt a rms i n wh i c h h e h as spoken of the bill, that portance of the object in view-the creati on o f a Two-and- I objections to the scheme are of such a broad and sweeping a-Half per Cent. Stock-but he al so f e lt th a t it was of far character. I" was at a loss for some time to understand to greater importance that, unless up on some great national what part of th e pl an his objections applied. At one time necessity, the capital of the debt- s h ou ld no t b e increased, -i t aearod a aif his objections were limited to the question _ 0 He therefore urge d u p on th e G overnment to at once dis- 'of the Two-a ad-a-Half per Cent. Stock ; while at others h card from this clause the proposal or alternative. If they described the • whole scheme as being impracticable, inoo_n could procure the stockholders to accept a large and sub- venient, and wnjust, lam bound to say that I think the stantial amount of stock under No. 1, he would ' objectionsand : learnedgentleman do really go not stop of the hon. money t ()Too c,f the bi . , .. or too 10n.._ c..a 4 t inie (though he believed , three or five, yearrs tatect by Cr . eatrl O r Omatercitil and politico-economical views, which undoubtedly are at variance with mine. The hon. and learned gentleman appears to think it is perfectly safe to assume, and to act upon it as a practical principle, that we are going to create a great r evo l u ti on i n the value of money. He refers to a state 'of things forty years ago, when he says the value of money was 5 per cent., whereas it is only now 3 per cent. He infers, • therefore, that th e value of money will continue t o fal, as heretofore, as if the process had been in steady and continuous working from time immemorial. But what is the use of going back only forty years ? If you go back at all, you should go a little further. Go back more than 100 years, when, as I stated on a recent occasion in this house, the value of money was less than 3 per cent., and when Three per Cont. Stock sold in the London market at 1061. and 1071. Well, that is a most vital fact, and if circumstances had not changed with us, I think the bill before the house would be a very unwise one. But circumstances have changed, and the fact that the value of money stood at such a rate forty years ago should not deter us from proceeding with the measure now upon the table. The hon. and learned gentleman speaks in very vivid and glowing terms of the growing wealth and prosperity of the country. I was sur prised to hear these expressions from the lips of the hon. and learned gentleman, for I have been under the impres sion, for some considerable time past, that the hon. and learned gentleman entertained very different views of the state and prospects of the country, and that he occasionally indulged in such prophecies as only the most melancholy imaginations could conceive with regard to the results of our present mode of commercial legislation, under the in fluence of which he says England is not only careering along the road to ruin, but has nearly reached the goal. (A laugh.) lam glad the honourable and learned gentle. man has seen cause to change his views, though I am afraid he is likely to fall into the other extreme, for he looks not only for the increasing prosperity of the country, but like wise for a considerable, continuous, and permanent decline in the value of money. He proposes to legislate upon that consideration, and finds fault with us for giving a forty years' guarantee, by which he thinks we shall cheat our selves out of a great deal we should otherwise have. I need not say that these are not the views upon which the construction of this bill has been based. (Hear.) We acknowledge that -there is a tendency to depreciation in the value of money, and we seek to avail ourselves of that tendency ; but •we do not go the length of the hon. and learned gentleman in his prognostications of the continued fall in the -value of money until it reaches a point much below what it is at present, and we think that schemes of a speculative and illusory nature would be injurious to the country and unworthy of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman spoke for some time in a man ner which I could not follow ; but I presume his remarks were pointed to the improvement which would be made in the scheme by the omission of one of the alternatives. Now, I think if Parliament were to send me into the money market with a maimed and impracticable scheme in my hand, it would be one of the most unwise things it could possibly do, discreditable to itself, injurious to the public, and destructive of the proposed plan. (Hear, hear.) Whatever the committee decides upon, I do trust it will define to itself clearly the object it proposes by this bill. If it does not approve of that object, let it reject the bill altogether ; but if it does approve of it, then I hope it will not stint us of the means necessary to the attainment of the object in view. (Hear, hear.) Again, the hon. and learned gentleman has expressed his dissent from the entire principle of the bill, and has spoken of the ruinous and ex travagant rate of interest, 21. 155., which we are about to guarantee ; and he has likewise rferred to the expediency of not increasing the capital of the national debt. These are the points upon which I will trouble the com mittee with a few remarks farther on ; in the meantime I will notice another observation which has fallen from the honourable and learned gentleman, who insisted that the scope of this measure is to be extended hereafter, and that, if possible, it is to be applied to the whole of the 500,000,000/. of debt. Now, here the hon. and learned gentleman entirely misconceives my position. He says that because I ask you to give me leave to operate to the extent of 30,000,0001. of the Three per Cent. and Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stocks, it therefore follows that when that stock shall have been exhausted I shall come and request you to authorise me upon the same terms to create more stock. Now that is an entire misapprehension of the object of this bill. The object of the bill so far as regards the Two-and a-Half per Cents. is entirely different. It is to give terms to secure the establishment of the stock, but having esta blished the stock you may then improve the terms, and so far from asking power to create more stock upon the same terms, I should say, without being able to anticipate the precise course events will take, that it would not be proper to give the same guaran t ee . (Hear.) The stock once esta blished, you will have standing ground upon which to take up your position in order to extend and increase your finan cial operations, and you will be in circumstances to create additional 'stock upon terms more favourable to the public as well as more favourable to the creditor. The hon. and learned gentleman opposite occupied a considerable length of time by frequently reiterating, but not thereby mate• rially strengthening, the assertion that the three proposals or options offered to the public creditor are not equi' alents, and he accuses me of having said they were equivalents. Now the hon. and learned gentleman ought to know per fectly well, that when we speak of equivalents in this mat ter, we do not mean equivalents simply and solely accord ing to arithmetical calculation. Considerations of conve nience enter into price --considerations of security enter into price —and we can put into figures the value of a forty years' guarantee, and the value of the power of transfer. ring public securities by an easy and inexpensive mode. When I stated that these things are equivalents, I meant to speak with the submission and the hesitation which every man ought to entertain with regard to his own judg ment ; but the learned gentleman speaks positively on the point, and says there is a very large difference in actual money in favour of the Two-and-a-Half and against the Three-and-a-Half: Proceeding by arithmetic alone, no doubt be was right, but I of course consulted an actuary on the point on. which the learned gentleman is so decided, and his answer showed a different opinion to that of the learned gentleman. Of the 110?. he pronounced the pre sent value to be 911. 13s. 4d. ; of the 821. 10s., he pro nounced the value to be 961. ss. This Three-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, which is supposed to be so absurdly infe rior in value that it cannot, according to the learned gen tleman, be for a moment put in competition with the Two and-a-Half, is estimated more highly by the actuary of whom I speak. In considering these equivalents, there are, it should be remembered, a great variety of elements which we ought to take into consideration. Some of these elements are certain, some uncertain, and we can only be guided in regard to th em by th e li g ht of experience. The learned gentleman is not satisfied to treat this question as most people of experience iu money matters treat it, as a matter of great difficulty, about which all prospective opi nions should be pronounced with great hesitation. He says that this is demonstrated, and that that is demonstrated, and tells us that it is perfectly monstrous, if you can se cure the circulation of bonds at 2/. 10s. for forty years, you should give the holder of stock 21. 15s. and then 1101. The learned gentleman said, " Why not stop at these bonds— you may immortalise yourself by issuing 500,000,000 of hxchequer bonds ?" That is the proposition he demon strated himself so clearly. I am repeating the words of the learned gentleman, who said, " These Exchequer Bills aro capable of being floated, or they are not ; if they are not, why found expectations upon them ? If they are, why not convert the whole of the Three per Cents. into them ? " Sir F. KELLY explained that he had only recommended trying them as far as they could. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER —The learned gentleman never intimated that there was the slightest difference between the practicability of issuing 20,000,000/. of them and the practicability of issuing 500,000,000/. Now, there is a difference, and though they may be useful up to a certain point, and obtain a- given price up to that point, we have to ascertain that point and that price by experience. I have, for that reason, only asked your authority to issue them to a limited amount, for to take unlimited power would be to discredit them in the first instance, and would look as if we intended to flood the market. When, however, you have ascertainec the wants of the commercial community, you can colidue your future operations accordingly. But the learned gen tleman goes further, and says it is perfect folly and ab surdity to suppose there is any difference in the value of 50s. annuity proceeding from registered stock, and Exchequer-bonds bearing 50s. interest. He says there is no appreciable difference; the prices of these two things 50s. secured on Exchequer-bonds and 50s. on registered stock—woull be identical. There again I think he forms his conclusions with a degree of positiveness which would have surprised me if he bad dedicated his life to these questions instead of devoting it to the engrossing labours of his honourable profession of which he is so deservedly distinguished a member. It appears to me, on the con trary, that though we cannot at the present moment tell what the value of these funds will be, it is reasonable to suppose-that there will be a very considerable value attach ing to these Exchequer-bonds, from their convenience, over and above what registered stock would have to a certain class of holders. He complains also, that it is not definitely fixed in the bill on what terms these bonds are to be issued. It appears to me that it would not have been right to fix that. Our duty is to issue, on the best terms that we can ' • and it was impossible for me to have formed a rational computation beforehand. If I had endeavoured to compute the terms on which they were to be issued, I should have put them too high or too low ; the only course was to ask, within reasonable limits, for a dis cretion when the time came, because we shall then be in a position of fuller knowledge, and shall enjoy fuller means of judgment than it is possible we can at the present moment. The learned gentlemen says it is an object of great importance to create a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but that an object of still greater importance is not to increase the capital of the debt. He admitted that it was desirable to create the Two-and-a-Hslf per Cent. Stock; his main objection was the increase of the debt. .. - I am not so sanguine as to hope, by any wholesale and permanent reduction in the value of money, to reduce the debt ; but I would readily go this length—that it is most desirable we should introduce into our financial system a stock bearing a rate of interest which, in case the value of money should be subject to favourable alterations, would form a basis for extended operations. I beg the committee to perceive that they could not make sure of creating a Two-and-a Flail per Cent. Stock by means of Exchequer bonds ; if we could have done so I never would have troubled you with a •Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, but would have been perfectly satisfied. But the learned gentleman must remember that the question of all was whether the bonds should, or should not, be at the expira tion of forty-one years redeemable at the option of the holder. If you could get out the bonds irredeemable, then the experiment would have substantially and com pletely succeeded. Then you would have a substantial basis for the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. You would then have standing ground from which to work more extended operations. But it is impossible for any man to say at this moment whether•we• can do th a t or not, and r would net advise you to give up the chance of doing it. What ' I recommend is, do not trust t o th a t chance. This is the reason why Government proposed this Two-and-a-Half por Cent. Stock, and not at all because they highly estimated the increased nominal capital of the debt. And to this question, the increase of the capital debt, I will now address myself. It has been always a matter of regret to me that the house has shown apparently an almost complete indifference on the subject of increasing the capital of the debt ; but I propose to it at present a moderate increase of the capital debt, and ask the house to give the Government power to increase the capital to a very limited extent. This, though, is not because I think it an indifferent matter, but because I and my colleagues thought the price worth paying for the will not attainment o f a great object of publi c pol i cy. Our proposal merely bring about a reduction of the rate of charges, but an object of public policy will be gained by the establishment of such stock. Let 118 see, then, whether the House of Commons i s p repared to lay down the principle that under no circumstances will it consent to increase the capital of the debt. Will the House ( f Commons bind itself to borrow always at the current rate of interest, and under no circumstances increase the capital of the debt ? If the House of Commons be ready to adopt that principle and to adhere to it with firmness, I must confess I think, not withstanding the temporary inconvenience, the house would have adopeed a very wise and patriotic deterraina tioA, and I should be most unwilling to make any proposal Which-Would stand in the way of such a resolution. My honourable and learned friend has said there is a great con stitutional principle involved in our not increasing the capital of the debt ; that it is a great constitutional prin ciple not to increase the capital of the debt by borrow ing at a rate of interest lower than the current rate of interest. Where did the honourable and learned gentleman find this great constitutional principle? I must confess myself astonished at the facility with which honourable gentlemen on convenient occasions (it did not require the ingenuity of the honourable gentleman to do it) manufacture particular opinions, and declare their main tenance involved great constitutional principles. (Hear, hear, hear.) I think the question of increasing the capital of the national debt is one which involves the exercise of prudence and discretion, but to say it involves a great constitutional principle is, in my opinion, putting it on very novel and much too high grounds. What have you been doing for the last 20 years, and what has the hon. and learned gentleman been doing ? for during a portion of that time he has sat in the house, has heard questions in volving this great constitutional principle decided, and large financial operations performed; without once raising his voice against them, though they caused an increase in the capital of the debt. Here is a list of operations since the peace, in every one of which there was a systematic and habitual increase of the capital of the debt. In April, 1826, they funded 8,000,0031. of Ex chequer bills, four per cent., at 1001., adding 500,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1829 they funded 3,000,0001. of Exchequer bills, at 101/. 10s., a ddi ng 45,0001. to the capital of the debt. In August, 1839, they funded 4,900,0001. Exchequer bills, at 109!. andla, fraction, and added 490,0001. to the capit a l of the debt. In 1841, they funded 5,000,0001. Exchequer bills, adding 603,0001. to the capital of the debt. In 1822-23 they converted no less than 150,000,0001. of Five per Cent. Stock, adding a capital to the debt of 7,500,0001. So late as 1847, in the presence of nearly every man now in the house, 8,000,0001. of money were borrowed, and 720 0001. was added to the capital of the debt. In 1848, 2,000,0001. of stock was created, adding 140,0001. more to the debt. So that, on the whole there has been within the last five years no less than 10,500,0001. added to the capital of the debt, and this addition, too, be it remembered, was not to secure a great object of policy, but simply with a view to the reduction of annual charges. For my own part, no alternative has been shown to me which would gain the object of establishing a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock except the creation of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at a premium. Suppose, instead of my coming down to the house with the scheme I have developed, I had asked the house to authorise me to go into the market and offer Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock for what it would fetch, it would in that case have been quite open to the house to object to a plan which would have had the effect of increasing the capital of the debt. Sir F. KELLY said—Not if there was a guarantee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER-If I had asked the house to authorise me to go into the market and sell 1001. Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock for what it would bring, my opinion was that such a step would increase the capital of the debt a great deal more than would this pro position, for I should not be able to get 1001. for it, and must have sold it for its market value. The value in the market would not come so near 1001. as 1001. was near to 1101., so that that would increase it, not merely by ten cent., but by considerably more. In point of fact, we must take it either in meal or in. malt. If you think it an object of policy to establish a Two-and-a-half per Cent. Stock you must be prepared to pay the price for it—an equivalent price. There is no way to create a Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock but that which I propose, namely, stating plainly, " We give you an amount of stock over and above 1001.—we give you a premium on the stock over and above 1001." Either we must do that, or else take the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock into the market and sell it for what it will bring—a plan which, as I have already said, would increase the nominal capital of the debt more than he proposed. This is the plan, and that the alternative. Proceeding on the assumption —an assumption borne out by those who are conversant in these matters—that Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock brought into the market would not sell for ten-eleventh parts of 1001., it is quite clear that if it sold for any less, it would add, in so far to the capital of the debt. I k now b ut one way in which both these objects can be obtained, first, the creation of a Two-and a-Half per Cent. Stock ; and, secondly, the prevention of any increase in the capital of the debt. I might say that, inasmuch as South Sea and other minor stocks might be converted into Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stocks, if it were only the question of amount, I had no objection to reduce the whole sum of Two-and-a-Half per Cents. to 20,000,0001., instead of 30,000,0001. The main question, as I have stated, is whether the committee will, on any consideration, agree to the augmentation of this nominal capital of the debt. In my opinion there is only one way to deal with it. We must elect between abandoning altogether the Two-and-a- Half per Cent. Stock, and the adoption of this mode of proceeding, to devote to the purpose of the reduction of the debt the annual saving made by the establishment of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. If the house chooses to determine that the annual saving shall be so devoted, it will be in its power entirely to prevent any increase, real or nominal, to the capital of the debt. Under the pro posed plan the Two-and-a-half per Cent. Stock will be dealt with in the market according to the dividend paid upon it, the holder of the stock will have nothing to do with its redemption, it will stand the r e as T wo - an d- a -H a lf p er Cent. Stock. You will provide that in respect of every 31. now payable by the Bank to the holders of Consols, that sum shall be commuted to 21. 15s. ; the othei ss. will be payable to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and these ss. will be applied to the pur chase and cancelling of stock, thus completely, but gradu ally extinguishing the nominal capital you now propose to add. Another plan has been proposed, namely, that instead of offering Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock at once, we shall offer stock which for ten years shall be three per cent. ; for ten years more two - and-three-quarters, and for ten years more two-and-a-half ; but this operation extended over a period of thirty years will not attain the object I have in view in the establishment of a Two-and-a -half per Cent. Stock. If I adcfpt that plan I must surrender my policy. Now, if the house crea t e a T wo - and-a-Half per Cent. Stock, at the rate of 1101. for every 1001. Consols, to an extent of 30,000,0001., and 5,000,0001. more of minor stocks aro converted, that will give us a total of 35,000,0001. of Three per Cent Stock commuted to two-and-a-half. The addition to the capital of the debt as it stands on paper would be 3,500,000/. ; the saving in the annual charge would be 87,5001. ; the annual . application of 87,5001. to the purchase of Consols throughout the whole period of forty-one years, supposing you take one year with another, good and bad times, as they came, and Three per Cents. always at par, would cancel each year 87,5001. of Consols. The interest of the Consols so cancelled would be 2,625/. In the first year then you would save on the new stock created 87,5001; you would buy Consols with it, and the cancelling of the Consols would effect a saving of 2,6251. ,The same amount would be saved the next year and the next, the succession rising gradually by 41 e qua l s t eps t o the full annual saving of 87,5001., which it will be seen amounts to 3,587,0001., the sum wanted. In other words, stock to the amount of 3,587,5001. would be cancelled. By this plan, though the saving at first will be insignificant, yet it would grow rapidly with the amount of stock cancelled, until it reached the full amount ; and at the end of the term there will not be a farthing of nominal capital added to the debt. In this way you will get the Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock out in the market, and by making a comparatively slight and judicious sacrifice at present will prevent the least in crease of the capital of the debt, real or nominal. If a plan more free from objection can be suggested which will attain the object we have in view, I shall be happy to adopt it, but no such plan has been suggested so far—no plan which, together with the end I propose to achieve, will accomplish the establishment of a Two-and-a-Half per Cent. Stock. Thus, by making a sacrifice of the full bene fit of the annual saving, and postponing it for this purpose you will prevent the slightest increase at the expiration of the prescribed period to the nominal capital of the debt. If any plan could be suggested which would carry out the policy wehave in view in a manner more entirely free from exception than this, I should be most happy : but no such plan has been suggested. All the plans which have been suggested to me are liable to one fatal objection or other. Either they are plans which nobody could act upon, or they plans which would not se cu r e th e crea ti on of the Two and-a-Half per Cent. Stock which I aim at, orpl ans that would postpone the creation of that stock. If the committee con cur with me in thinking that it is important to create a Two and-a- Half per Cent. Stock, I venture respectfully to submit this mode of proceeding, by which you will ensure the crea tion of that stock. You will by that mode ensure its creation immediately. The operation of the reductions you provide for will not complicate that stock, but will be entirely a separate matter. Your substantial objects will all be gained if the enjoyment of the annual saving shall be postponed. But the policy will be established, and the capital of the debt will not be increased by one farthing. (Hear, hear.) That is a plan which I hope will remove the objections of the hen. and learned gentleman. If -there is any further explanation which I can give, and if I have not suc c e e d e d In explaining the matter fully, I shall be happy to do so. My desire is, that the committee should act in the matter with its eyes open. I can only say that it will be a great satisfaction to me—not a reluctant concession wrung from me—but it will be a great satisfaction to me if the House of Commons is prepared for the future to lay down the principle that it will not consent to any augmentation of the public debt. (Hear, hear.) No one will adopt that principle with greater eagerness than myself. You will never find on my part a disposition to flinch from it. And I now give a test of my sincerity, by tendering a plan which, although its first effect will be to put on paper, cer tainly, a nominal increase of the debt, will entirely remove that increase at the expiration of the period already men tioned. (Cheers.) Mr. T. BARING did not consider that the circumstances of the country justified the present scheme of the Chan sollor of the Exchequer. Unless there was a strong ground for the increase of the debt, it ought not to be permitt e d. The right hon. gentleman had referred to several instances of an increase taking place in the debt, but the periods when those operations took place were not analagous to the present. The country was not now in such distress that it need be relieved from a portion of its annual bur dens at the expense of those who were to come after for the hon. gentlemen opposite were in the habit of telling the house that the country was never in such a state of prosperity. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman said he was ready to apply the saving of interest to the purpose of a sinking fund, but if he did, he would find that as soon as a moment of distress arrived, the sinking fund would be put aside, while the increased debt would rest on the public. (Hear, hear.) But in calculating this application of the saved interest the right hon. gentle man had forgotten that in his budget he had already reckoned upon 100,0001. a-year from the effect of his ope rations on the debt. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gen tleman's scheme seemed to be a combination of different plans ; it was like an ingenious puzzle, and what with them and with other plans which had been suggested to the right. hon. gentleman, the committee would hardly know what they were going to divide upon. With respect to the third alternative of transferable bonds, he had not the slightest objection to that proposition ; but, if the right hon. gentleman left the option of a 2 per cent, stock, he certainly would not get so much from the bonds as he anti cipated. Tho right hon. gentleman's calculation that 1101. of one stock was only worth 911. 135., and that 821. 10s. of another stock was worth 961. 55., it puzzled him very much to comprehend. (Hear, hear.) The right hon, gentleman had calculated that thebonds would bear an extraordinary• value on account of their being transferable without any formality from hand to hand ; but the hon. member for Suffolk had shown that a similar security existed in France and Holland, and bore not more than the same value of he inscribed stock. Ho did not believe that a man would be able to borrow more easily on these bonds than on the Three per Cents. ; and as to the difficulty of transferring stock for temporary loans, everybody knew that that was a matter of no importance. Ho regarded the right hon. gentleman's plan as rather too complicated and too con fused; but the great objection to it was, that it necessarily involved an increase of the national debt, and he should be sorry to see the British Parliament declare to the world that, in a time of prosperity, it was disposed, under the pressure of no emergency, and-for the purpose of obtaining no very great result, to sanction a principle so objection able, and he -had eaaost said so disastrous, = (Hear hear,) ll s Mr. W. WILLIAMS sa id th at i f the Chance ll or of a Exchequer now succeeded in breaking down a consider s ; portion of the 500,090,000/. of 3 per Cents., he woult4 enabled at no v e ry di s t an t ti me t o effect a reduc ti on 01 r remainder on somethi ng lik e th e w i se principle o f the t; duction effected in 1844. He thought, then, it 1 1 ty interest of that hous e an d o f th e country to suPP°l,d, right hon. gentl eman i n hi s propos i tion to effect that .. 4 4 and important object. (Hear, hear.) He had elPr e ': ;4 in strong term s hi s oppos iti on to t h e principle of i ncr o% the national d e bt, but if by doing th a t t o the eaten' , 3,000,0001. th e y could, in the cou rse o f no distant ti , el effect the reduction of th e d e bt , as h e h ad no - d ou bt . 19 ' i might, perhaps by th e sum o f 400,000,000/. it would !, 4 immense advantage to th e p u bli c . Taping the propoon, of the ri g ht h on . gen tl eman as a whole, and so u ltintS' e .i to reach the remainder of the debt, it was in his opill i the interest of the house to support it. Mr. LAING said, the question at issue appeared to hi to be of the plainest description—whether it was or., ..,, desirable to crea t e suc h an amount of 23 per cent. Peis nent stock as w ou ld servo as a - b arometer to test t h e Et;A i 4 of public credit. H e t rus t e d they would be prepar"ss pay the market p r i ce f or e ff ect i ng the commutation its that stock, but it appeared that the mode in which 4l right hon. gentlem an th e Ch ance ll or of the Excne‘,V proposed to effect it was the most economical that eu i , be adopted. He thought also the ss. over the 21. 15 . 9 i0 terest might well be devoted to the purpose of a ' in a,a, fund. The h on , gen tl eman t h e member for Hunt i n 9 and the hon. an d l earne d mem b er for East Suffolk, gee bls to think that th e 23 per cen t, stock would •be so deriy that none of the Exchequer bonds would be taken ; u e l, believed the probability .to be that they would coinn3 o o . premium. Th e ti me was f avoura b le for laying the fotnitvi tion of a syst em f or th e re d uct i on of the national debt. 01 of ultimately getting rid of a great part of our na ti° burdens. irlii Captain LAFFAN sa id th at, however desirable it 13' be, even on a sma ll sca l e, t o create the 24 per cent. s, ;(Is, ' o r and let it go i n t o th e mar k et, yet it appeared to be col. pletely settled th a t th e a d vantage was not to coun t e r c i once the greater disadvantage, in fact and in fee/itte adding to the n om i na l amount of the debt. But a sri) ment of the Cha nce ll or o f th e E xchequer had surP ilJe him. The right hon. gentleman had stated that O li o; question being submitted to an actuary, as to the 3 ' o „,1, value of the two p ro p os iti ons o f 821. 10s. 3i Per e 4 fel stock, redeemable 40 y ears h ence, and of 1101. ''% tbl cent, stock, redeemable 40 years hence, he had given as value of the latter 911. 13s. 4d., and of the former 961 :,,, Bd. ; being 41. 'i t lls. Bd. in f avour o f th e 33 per Cent* _ i 0 He was at a l oss t o k now h ow the actuary had arriv°`ios that conclusion ; and it must be observed that the o ' o ll, of an actuary, like th a t o f a mem b er of the legal pro flee-l er must depend upon the case submitted to him; but, 01 10 deavouring to trace out the principle that had guide t ial actuary to the conclusion he had mentioned, he found l y, f ar the 911. 13s. 4d. was p rec i se l y th e amount of Consols s O ll that would give a perpet ua l annu it y o f 21. 17s. 9d. hall respect to the Exchequer bond s , th e power o f selling `01( was left undefined by the bill, b u t h e s h ou ld lik e t o l'„' o r whether they would b e authorised to be sold belo w above par. ,i. Mr. J. B. SMITH had no o bj ec ti on t o th e first prcreel' tion of the 34 per cent. stock, but he thought the Cl O llOl for of the Exch equer m i g ht h ave gone further itt oor 0 direction, and that the ti me h a d arr i ve d when they s.,' lay the foundation o f a system ro.: the extinction, if roil ble, of the national d e bt. Ho believed the public eB O prepared, if necessary, to make a temporary sacr,i°,), gain that important object. The Chancellor of the x-', D - e r quer had proposed that they should capitalise the °, l te ct ence between the 21. 15s. on the new 23 per cent. `i g b l and the rate they at present paid. He thought the c id hon. gentleman might have gone a little further and cr ° , ( o an amount of terminable annuities ; but that questionf 4 , so important that he would suggest the propriety °i pointing a committee to consider whether some ' .ii , Y might not be proposed by which a liberal o ff e r nil bsl, made to the public creditor, alike advantageous l '",10 and to the nation. As to the Exchequer-bonds, by a t ' all they were to b e re d eema bl e at the end of 40 years, °,l' option of the h o ld er or o f th e G overnment. He ei-,0 rather make it i m p era ti ve on th e h o ld er, leaving t h e e! only with the Government. f eg / Mr. J. A. SMITH was one o f those who for many ',or had regretted th a t more h a d not been done for the f c ' pol tion of the na ti ona l d e bt , an d that more attention / o , t o been paid to th e su bj ec t o f t erm i na b le annuities, nal cordially ag ree d w ith th e h on. mem b er for Stockport itl4 the people of this country would very cheerfully stiln e k , l a temporary sacrifice, in order to have so grea t a bennllo some period being fixed for a larg e re d uc tion °l le/ national debt. As to the measure more immediately °ye , the consideration of the house, he regretted th a t the d poi, member for Huntingdon in his very able speech 11 ,1 0 '' , l alluded to the point on which the whole matter of ' boo' per cent. stock depended. It was known to the i t' it' member particularly how important it was to begir o d creation of a 23 per cent. stock. It was of the 11 ` f it,' importance, with a view to the future reduction ° fit'', amount of annual charge, that we should begin °; the creation of a 24 per cent, stock. There inig,' o ''' no -distant period, be a great reduction in the Ysf it' d money, and means should b e p rov id e d to °nail 0 31 Government of the country to t a k e th e advantage ° t such change. e Mr. HUME consider e d th a t it was a po i n t o f Te•, ev. ~ fs t ' importance to b rea k i n t o th e cap it a l d e b t by 6 1./ 0 AP) , means, and he was s ure th e coun t ry wou ld submit r ,r, reasonable sacrifice to effect th a t o bj ec t . Th e Deal, preach we mad e t o th e convers i on of our debt into noble annuities the better. Mr. WILKINSON did not perceive the en ornir i ;o o ce vantage anticipated by so m an y honourable ge°,oll from the creation of a 23 p er cen t, s t oc k , and `,,lei it was not an object justifyin g an y a dditi on t o the `'. debt. c be , Mr. J. B. SMITH asked if the Chancellor of the :t,ioll: quer had any objection to l a y on th e t a bl e the ca.... t h , of the actuary whi c h h e h a d rea d t o th e house, "t lle' question on w hi c h it was f oun d e d? He could :7), ,stak e thinking th a t it must have been founded on son z e sa id The CHANCELLOR of th e _ EXCREQ_UP" ~,, quoted the answer of the actuary in answer to P"' servations of the honourable gentleman opposite., object was to show that there were elements in th oi ,i , J , lation which were not reducible to figures, and hey,er that in what was reducible to figures, if the premi. r ,se - :(D e so and so then the results would be so and so. or actuary did not und er t a k e to calculate the risk of r e lefe u tip oll tion from one yea r t o another, as that m u st depen ci e , q restions of war or peace —upon the ease and prosPe' n i te) the country, or the revers e . H e h ad only to say, in B'pte to the honourable member for Montrose, that he iv.. -- tlO pared to bring up a clause which would give effect t° proposition he recommended. On the question being put from the chair, os ti°ll Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—Sir, when this cl il uij oi came before us first- in the shape of a resoluti on , as it l ' t bet in the shape of a bill, the general i m p ress i on wa s tli e d Majesty's Government were about to deal with th e ° body of the public debt. (H ear , h ear. ) That was be general impression. The sum th a t was t o come un tie r Ol ,l immediate and contingent oper a ti on o f th e measure 1:001$1 be about 500 m illi ons s t er li ng, an d th ere can b o no of that when that impression first went abroad, it vin e ,o 1 startling. The su bj ec t was one of immense interest vast importance ; as , o f course, the unlimited eon ° ooo 0 01 1 of the national debt must be considered, if extensiv e 0 11 complete, of a character and greatness which ne die ic ier calculate—if even on a li m it e d sca l e, i t is still of c° lle t ipt, able importance. The popular idea on the subject i i. o 0 0 in some happy m o m en t, th e Mi n i s t er m i ght reduce tP,e.,,11,1 of interest, if no t a lt oge th er i mme di ately, yet Par'i‘ o° and ultimately to the interest of 23 per ce nt, ; °la ' ble. A s doubt the effects of that oper a ti on wou ld b e cons ia r id° be , Let the committe e b ear i n m i n d w h a t th e effect iv° e ° lb Instead of paying, as y ou d o now , th e sum of 15 nil 014 sterling a-year, you would save 23 millions, and you iv° o l only pay 123 millions a-year, and of course the cl o ' r would anticipate from th a t o p era ti on the great and ,ti o ficial effects whi c h would accrue from such a roan' be ' of the national burdens. N ow l e t us see w h a t will „fir the saving gained by this proposition of the 049 t " e - r e3 ment. The matter has been slightly altered since' 1 0 0 the house, but perhaps the committee will allow. . 09 11 f read the sketch I made upon the question as it origin stood. The Government proposes to create thirty t r i t l' i ' of stock at 24 per cent., increasing the capital s' ali f ' 1101., thirty millions more of Exchequer bonds at p a ' s v it'' 440 millions more at 33 per cent., reducing the e e ' v ol stock to 821. 10s. Upon the 500 millions, as matterst. the stand, you pay fifteen millions a year. If the plan Of th e Minister be completed—and I presume to impress o° o o, committee that in considering any financial propositi4 o ll must consider it as completed —we cannot test it wi t s g 1 assuming its completeness—then the thirty mat o ", 1001. stock, at 2i per cent. interest, will involve an nae,' charge of 866,0001.—the thirty millions of Exe ne 'itV bonds issued at par, and bearing 21 per cent. interest t d s cost 8 2 5,000 1 .—while the 440 milli ons , b ear i ng 34 Peri:erly andissued at 821.10 5 ., w ill cost 12,105,000/.—altoget'- the annual charge of 14,396,0001. If I d e d uct this fr°m-itto fifteen millions we now pay, there will be an annual 0 ,_e e e C, l slightly ex c e e di ng 600,000/ . If , t h en, the plan of i d V, vernment be carried int o full effect, the result W il d fo; that this amount of annua l charge would be guarant ee ° pc° forty years ; that for'ill that time there could be no ile sible action on the debt, with the exception of a sl l g s eer, duction on the Exchequer bonds; that, with that,! e t,i o ' l tion, for forty years there could be no greater re do 1 than this 600,0001. a year. Now, I beg the house, bey l pt l , o they decide on this proposition, to follow me while Ol t before them, as briefly as I can, some notes I 10°00 0 of preceding operations on the n a ti ona l d e bt , an d it) doe, the amount saved to the country by preceding o .ll„ fe jA with the project of the right hon. gentleman. - 1- ' O . I believe, the first conversion of debt took plac e r aos l e i Robert Walpole. He dealt with dividends to the, ~3 der of 13 millions. The dividends that are now to ny te d t bj with amount to fifteen millions. The saving effe e ti a a Sir Robert Walpole on a dividend of 13 millions anal o t, r to 324,0001. a year, (Hoar, hear.) The saving ' OO Ol now proposed to be effected upon dividends arn ° o o ll 4 , to fifteen millions is now 600,0001. That is an /MI dee; consideration—one on which the committee will n ° t i o o l o it inexpedient to reflect ; and there was no specific 3 ~ the the act for any guarantee of the interest, which 1 1 most important point in all our calculations. If, -0 1(0 you contrast the proje c t o f th e r i g ht h on. gentleratt 0 the plan of Sir Robert W a lp o l e i n 1727 , it i s clear rtbsti do not by the pre s ent pl an effect an arrangemen t 0 fg:f nearly half so beneficial to the country. There 10E/ o.'l ther reduction of debt from 5 to 4 per cent. in the 4fe etn George 11. By it a saving of 340,000/, a.3-ear was v ol -: —more than half of the saving which is now pree ri pte;, be effected—and in this ease also there was no gl.1 1 : 00 , D o , I am anxious to impress this fact upon the connoT to t 0 0 cause the guarantee is here one of the most imix'" v ersi i , e f ments in our calculation. Now I will take the c° ll ,osl,'" of debt which occurred in 1749, and which was on e " C eti Mr. Pelham. He reduced the debt from 4to 3 P er gre ft .n , and the saving in that case was 565,000/. ; nearly ont pi:',4 a saving as will be effected if the whole of the P'l o o t e . ject bo carried into effect. I believe that Mr. ret„t 1,,,,t in this instance—l am speakinc , from memorY" --- 7,11 14 ' 0 , lievo he did give a guarantee of seven years, but t l t i ie V i v o was a very limited guarantee in comparison W ith a ll t° se rantee to which our attention is no w ca ll e d. In ,•tbillg. conversions, then, the ter ms con t ras t favourablyllioi3t e 4 to which our attention is called by the present -w e 01°;: o r . We approach now t o more mo d ern t i mes —t o thel to 41 4' when Mr. V ans itt ar t re d uce d th e d e b t f ro m ~, t he s i o cent. Let ua see the capital with which he den'",,gil i , 8 ing which he effected, and let us consider the s, v, 0 , 1 J j ' e d is now proposed to be made. He had to d?t o ffecL.o debt of 150,000,0001., and the saving which T o auj ou re , amounted to I,2oo,ool.—that is to say, doublett o j e et,P oc . which her Majesty's Ministers by their presentigh it o o tend to save ; and the guarantee in this case, t n „, r s. ie bt, curved so recently as 1822, was only for seven T ..: 7 0 o f o t je committee will observe that in all these concession the I ° o lo from the first effected by Sir Rober Walpole t . tho re ierti . 1822, the terms were extremely different ,a I T, c onlU ( ' were extremely different from those now under