The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-26 00:00:00

';.le Aa, on which it is meant to be engrafted ? ty Suspending that Bill, they at once cut down the plan under the feet of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which aims at improving and rende r ing i t more produCti ve an d effectual. Admitting, as Ministers do, that this plan is worthy of consideration, they will not wait till it is brought forward, but pro. teed in another plan of their own to recruit the Army, and draw from the Right Honourable Gen tleman the very means of establishing his. They put the Right Honourable Gentleman in a whimsical aituation,which reminds me of what I have sometimes seen advertised, " a Speech intended to be spoken." They leave him, indeed, the power of speech ; but with respea to the Bill itself, he can only - ref it as a pla n i nten d e d to be proposed. In case of er a to ballot tinder this plan, it appears the objeal of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that a Bounty shall be given to the man on whom it falls ; that, however, says the Hon. Gentleman. who Spoke last, will have no tifeEt, as I k now i nstances where the man ballotted has refused the largest Bounties that have been offer ed. This general denial, however, rests on very insufficient grounds. Tie Hon. Gentleman cer tainly cannot know what o t h er persons will do in like ci rcumstances, . and that when the whole Re cruiting Service of the Army is put on a different 'plan, and the Bounty is limited and uniform, which is now variable and unlimited. The Han. Gentle man al s o seeme d to think that Subscription Societies would prevent men drawn from accepting the Boun ty•; but how they can have that effea . l, I have not the least conception. I alway s thought these Clubs not me-rely legal, but highly meritorious, and do not see why they should be likely to give highe r Boun ties to Substitutes than individuals. By repressing these Clubs, we encourage that spirit of adventure and gambling, which in other cases we ohjed to and retrain ; the Club can have no possible motive to save the individual from service. How is if anoma lous that four persons should pay five pounds each instead of one paying twenty pounds ? What pos sible ohjealion can there be to postpone the suspen sion of the Bill, if the plan proposed by the Right honourable Gentleman is to be considered ? Al though, admitting the proptiety of this consi deration now, they seemed wholly to deny the pos sibiliy of such necessity in die Debate of Mon. day for a Com m it tee Teren ce b et ~ as if ther e was an y dll- and between th e R ecru i ting of the Army the Defence of the Country. If this plan is thought proper to be considered, ileny the Committee on the Defence of the Country, why should they certainly the most proper place in which to consider Sit " a plan ? No, say they, that question was tant amount lose ourto a question, Whether we shall go out and Places, and in that view we cannot agree to it, a l t h ough we. know , aos, must go. Like the story i n Tom Jonea,w_here Partrid an objects ta n going Toni, <l we m up a hill. dangerous for robber s ~ W ht', says true," must die some t i me. " " Ah l ver y answered Partride, 4, but it don't follow that I should have my throat cut to.night." We moved for a e --ornmittee on the State of the Defence of the Count v 'they immediately perceived T., I a nd that such an 1• • ~ • • ffe, he an im oquiry would, in its e , mediat e r emoval of the Ministry ; and though ap- F r ° v irig, as now appears, of the dire objet`}, were Willing, to put off the consequential effe6t. So in ft'' , tore, wh en th i s plan is brought forward, equally toil, 'they consider it as involving the question. on their I removal, a n d on t h at ground oppose it. . The rea l sue.stion at present is, Whether Ministers, by this proposed.suspension of the Army of Reserve Aa, have any fair and rational ground of hope of increasing the Defence of the Country ; o r whether w e shall defer that Suspension till a plan of general Recratitiog, lot 'the Army, proposed by a Right Hon:,,G4:ntieman, Shall he considered previously ? There is no motive • . ' w hatever to r es i st t h e proposition of that Right lion. Gentleman, but a more unbounded. confidence in Ministers, inferting.that all their planslor the. set -vice and Defence of the Country have been so good and effectual, that we will adopt no measures what , ever th at can at all call in question their wisdom and policy. I must think quite the reverse, and 1 thi - t_hat s measure stands upon no general or consist_ ie t p r i n , i t h e Pie whatever. All they have done, on 1 contrary, is so confused,• and inei inconsistent letlual, th . at I Certainly wish to consider any plan, lather than trust to their's ; and therefore, if I have any alteration to . make it • that the postponement of the Suspension Ad should'is, !O allow full ti n to be longer titan i4.days, discothe plan now proposed. iMiti;eters themselves, on their tom- own principles, are bound to cs7.9a'ider it so far as to see whether it in any degree inte.rferoa with, or affobjects any plan or object of theirs. 't o this I should think none can object, who do not think Minisaers endowed with superna tural Poweays, to shift and tiro cage, and always be in the righto----ai Ni. ow all i s Volunte ' eos! Now a il Mili tia! Nova all Army of Reserve ! Yet each, as they adopt arid enf orce it, is su re to b e b etter t h an the precedkng. Unles s the House can agree to this Cro position, I think they, can do no otherwise th , :l l agtet to the Motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, to postpone the Suspension of the Army of Reserve, and. take his plan into immediate consideration. I IMr. BRAGGE spoke a few words in explanation. adlord C ASTLE RE Atr; H acknowledged the' dis vantages he was under in following the Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Fox) who spoke last ; but particularly on this sot - jet}, upon which he felt himself incapa ble of addi ng to what had fallen from his Right hon. Colleagues. Much of the argument advanced to-night had been applied to remove the t ffed of the resasoning of himself and friends on a former occa sion. With respect to the subjed under contemplation, the most effectual Recruiting of the Army, he had always seen difficulty in it. ever, was The tru e ques ti o n, how , The Parliament should at this mo ment stop all proceedings at present in force, to take into contemplation those proposed instead of them ? The opinions • Gentle man (M r. F now exp resse d by t h e on. ox) Hwere pettedly consistent with those maintained since the War. He had always opposed the Army of Resew e, and prof ess ed a de_ point h e seemed to tided p re f erence fur the Regular A rm y, on which t Hon. G goo the f u ll extent o f a Ri g h t entleman (Mr. WINDHAM). On the face of the returns, he had maintained, not that no injury Was done to the recruiting f or t h e R egu l ar S erv i ce , jut, m that s e rv i ce was more t h an C o mpensat e d by the greater benefi t o f t h e A rmy o f Re aerVe g It was asked, why Ministers had not hronght this measure, SZ. a l lat of raising f or rank, sooner ? He would answer, that the old Regi ments then so deficient, were now almost filled up by the 13,000 men obtained by the Army of Reserve. Of course new Battalions were now more proper than before, when the old Regiments were so deficient. That the measure of the Army of Reserve was origi nally right, seemed proved by the testimony of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. PITT) himself, who only wanted to carry it to a state of per fe6tion. But that measure being worn out, Minis ters did right to resort to some other. They would nor, however, have been justified in sodoing, till by their Letters to the Deputy Lieutenants they had taken every means in their power to render its effeas permanent ; and his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.Yotext) would not have been justified in bringing the case to Parliament till he had appealed to the Magistrates throughout the Country. The question, therefore, became, Whether they would leave the plan in . a state of ineffectual operation, doing injury to other mode - of recruiting, or suspend its operations alto gether, and relieve those services ? The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT) had, with his well-known ability, proposed another, and general Plan of recruiting the Army ; but it would be the height of Fully, not merely presumption, to rooempt to form a judgment of it on the first opening. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox), however, says, that suspero).ing the Army of Reserve A& would he fatal to that plan, aedcallson the House imroediate ly to decide. On the discussion of the Militia Bill, however, his Right Hon. Friend himself allowed the necessity of consulting the Magistrates and Deputy Lieutenants, as to the details, before the House came to a decision; and surely less time should not be thought necessary to consider a plan wholly new. Should we be certain that Parliament would ultimate ly adopt the plan ofliis Right Hon. Friend (Mr.PITT) he should think they would not come to a decision on it for seine months ; and was it to be supposed that the Army of Reserve Bill was to be left pressiog on the other modes of recruiting all that while ? The inconveniences of the Army of Reserve might well be endured for 35,000, but not surely for one or 2,000. He, however, was by no means unfriendly to the Army of Reserve ; next to the Regulars, he thought it the best force, and superior to the Mili tia. He too should prefer, as his Right Honourae Irk Friend (Mr. PITT) had stated, 64.,000 Army of Reserve, and 40,000 Militia, to 40,000 Army of Reserve, and• ever z,OOO Militia ; but the prac ticability of converting these numbers had not been shewne When all the exertion of Government had only produced 35,000 men of the Army of Reserve, how were they to be raised to 64,000 ? The Mili_ tia surely should not be permitted to lessen its num bet s rill that of the other force was increased. He was, therefore, anxious to keep the Militia , as it is, till the Army of Reserve had obtained its numbers of +o,coo in England, and to,ooo in Ireland. The Bitt of his Right Hun. Friend (Mr. YORKE), regu lating the recruiting of the Army, would not pre vent that, as it permitted the Army of Reserve to recruit at a stipulated bounty. At present, the idea of the Ballot for the Army of Reserve would cer tainly raise the price of Recruits, If it were pos sible to resort to Parishes in a way not oppressive, he should prefer that mode, but conceived it was not. For these, and other reasons, which he spf cified, he should feel himself compelled to resist the Mo t i o n of his Right H 'n. Friend (Mr. PITT), and vote for the Suspension of the Army of Reserve pia, as proposed in the Bill brought forward by Mr. YORKE. Sr; 1.4.11 E PULTENEY maintained, that for the immediate 'purpose of our defence, at this crisis, it was of infinite importance that a certain number of Militia should be transferred to the Regular Army. He professed to have great respea for the Militia, but he thought it his duty to say, that good as the Militia was, there was a material difference between them and the Regular Army in the field ; it had been said, that raw undisciplined Troops would sometimes fight as well as veterans; but it was never yet said by any bOdy, nor written by any body, that inex perienced Officers would do as well in the field as those of experience. He approved, however, of re. cruiting the Regular Troops out of the Sopplemen tary Militia ; and he observed, that it was to this plan that this Country owed the conquest of Egypt. He expressed concern for the safety of the Metro polis, in a case of extremity, and ti ished provisions to be made for its perfea safety, which would be effeeted with isoioota good men ; for that number of good men would be better than a greater num. ber, of inferior quality, as soldiers. Mr. JYiNDILAM observed, that the doarine which he had delivered on the subject of the Militia on former occasions, had been better received than that of the Hon. General who had . just preceded him, although he saw no reason for it, for the doc trine itself had lately gained ground. But he had no desire to detain the House long to-night, because as ioe took it, the question did lie in a narrow com pass. observed that from the arguments of rMi nisters, any o;.'e who had heard them would think that they would ;Fish to repeal the Army of Re serve Bill ; they sa id !hat it had produced a good effdt, but it can no longeejo so, and therefore they should no longer endure the i nc oe , veniencies of it ; that would be a plausible reason for repoling it, but could be none for its suspension. The truth was, that this, like all the measures of His Majesty's Min. stets, was of a wavering and uncertain charaeter. It w 4 5 said of him and others, that they opposed all the mell sures of the present Ministers, good or bad, and that was stated as .an unprincipled opposition—that was impossible—no man could oppose more than one half of the measures of the present Ministers, for one half of all their measures destroyed the other. The objection here was, that if the Army of Reserve should be done away, the mischief it had occasioned would remain. They did not annihilate the mea sure of the Army of Reserve ; they kept up a sort of Ghost of the Army of Reserve, and that Ghost was to appear and stalk . about as Ghosts very often did, for the purpose of extorting money, which, he said, would be the effea of this Bill ; for the very hope that the Army o f Reserve should be revived, would keep in the minds of men the idea of the enormous bounties which that Bill occasioned ; and he maintained that the injustice of letting it fall alike, as by this Bill would be the case, on all parishes, delinque-it or not, w ad a crying evil, then erne 11+e eittestior., whether the Army of Reserve Bill should be suspended or repealed ? He was for the question of delay, proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Now, if Ministers had allowed the House to go into a Committee the other night, every thing might have been done upon which the House was now debating, be. cause the House would then have had an oppor tunity of hearing the plan of the Ministers, and the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and might have made choice . of - the best. It was, however, not ne. cessary for him to say, that he should rather enter tain the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, than that of the Ministers ; because the plan of such a person was sure to have a great deal in it, and the plan of the Ministers was sure to contain nothing that themselves would not shortly counteraa : and therefore it .was, to say the least of it; comparing something against nothing, to compare the one plan against the other in this case. He thought that the Defence of this Country would be compleat,provided due attention was paid to the increase of a Regular Army ; and he thought that could be accomplished by merely removing the impediments to it, which impediments Ministers had created, by every one of their measures in the course of the present War. He thought that the Army might be recruit ed out of the Militia to a much greater extent than had ever yet been attempted. He would not relinquish the object which he had long had in view, and to which he never knew any man of military knowledge objaa, on the contrary, every one he ever conversed with approved of it, namely, that of-enlisting for the line for a term of years, in. stead of enlisting for life. lie observed, that many parts of the plan, as it had been opened by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. PITT), he approved, bur even if he had not been able to assent to it, he should have been ready to say that such was the charaaer of that Right Honourable Gentleman, that any thing he proposed must be at least worthy of attention, and therefore ought to be considered; whereas he knew the plans of Ministers to be of no value ; so that at all events the House had to consider something against nothing. There was nothing in any plan of Mini sters ; they had been driven to despair : they had been reeling to and fro, they knew not how, like drunken men, going one way and then another, without knowing what was likely to happen to them, con. founding themselves in every step they took, renounc ing what they had once adopted, and adopting what they had before renounced; destroying their measures or rendering them. useless, by something of equal force to oppose a former measure, like ;talon and re.action, which were equal to each other, and by which no progress could be made in the moral, any more than the physical world. He took notice of the argument which Ministers had made use of upon the suleisa of the zeal of the Country : it was true, there was such zeal, but it was a zeal which Mini sters had no other share in creating than the sense of danger into which their measures had brought us, and the zeal was only a feeling of necessity, of get ting over the calamity in which the folly of Mini sters had involved us. They had boasted of 4000000 Volunteers being in arms for the Defence of their Country, and ready to risk their lives in its defence : it was true they were SO : bt:t Ministers might as well say the same .'sting of fifteen millions of men, for all the Inhabitants of the Empire had the same feeling, and that from the same cause—a sense of the danger into which the Ministers had brought diem, and a firm determination to defend their Country. In a word, there was much in the plan of the Right lion. Gentleman, which be approaed, although there was some things which were difTer ent from the view he had of things ; but there could hardly be a plan from any one, much less from such a person, which he should not wish to attend to, in preference to that which was now proposed by Mi nisters, and therefore he should oppose the Si E ER's leaving the Chair, to go into a Committee upon the present Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the LXCHEQUER en tered into all the observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him, as well as those of other Members, and contended against them. He maintained that some Gentleman thought that the Army of Reserve Bill ought to be continued, others that it ought to be repealed, and yet these Gentle. men, thus opposite to one another, could agree to oppose the Speaker's leaving the Chair upon the Bill, which only went to the suspension of that Bill, a Bill which he was ready to admit to be of such a nature, that nothing but absolute necessi ty would justify the passing of it, but which neces sity did exist, and therefore it was justifiable at the time it was past, which necessity did not now exist, and, therefore, the Bill ought now to be suspended. It had answered a good purpose—had produced 37,000 men, 13,000 of which had gone into the Regular Service, in a manner which could not have been accomplished within the same time by any other means ; it had ceased to operate beneficially , and therefore it was proposed to suspend it, not to re peal it, lest it might hereafter become necessary ; if so, Parliament would be justified in recurring to it ; but before, one had no difficulty in saying that no • thing short of absolute necessity could justify a re currence to such a measure. He felt an objeaion to the system of the Right Hon. Gentleman as a per. manent military system, because it was founded on ballot for the internal defence of this Country, and that upon a large scale. He doubted whether it would be found consonant to the feelings of the people of this Country, although upon a particular emergency they might submit to it in a partial case, - azad he was in hopes, that next year we should not b e s oder the necessity of adopting such a measure as a get:eral system. He felt an oblation also to that part tet the Plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman which went to raise Cavalry Regiments ; there were some reastens why, in many cases, Gentlemen in the Country wen: the last who should be employ ed in raising men dice for permanent Service, and their own County, the last place where. they should do service ; and this might also be very unfavourable to discipline, It had been said, that Government took credit for all the zeal and patriotism m tnifested by the whole people of this Country ; they certainly beheld it with pleasure, but they did not rest upon it as an y merit of theirs ; far he would ask, if it wars owing to the zeal and the patriotism of the people of this Country, that all the ports of the Enemy, foam the Texcl to the Adriatic, tiad been blacked rip? Was it owing to the zeal and patrioriem of the People only, that we had made more acquisitions in one year of this War, than we ever did before in nanch longer time ? Was it owing to the zeal of the Peo ple only, that we were so formidable in all our mea sures ?—Certainly Ministers must, at least, have h-ti some share in giving diredion to that zeal. He reptile ed very highly indeed the strength and brave spirit of the 400,000 Volunteers of this Country, although he said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman who si 3 Oke last, thought lightly of them. He maintained that, upon the whole, His Majesty had at this moment in his service, and under his command, a greater force than was to be found at this time any where else in this world. He concluded with submit_ ting to the House the propriety of allowing the S PE AKER to leave the Chair, for the purpose it going into a Committee en a Bill for suspending the operation of the Army of Reserve Bill, which hail continued as long as it was usefUl ; it had answerse.l the purpose for which it was intended as well as it could be expeCted to answer it; if it continued any longer, it would only operate as a competition to the recruiting of the Regular Army. Mr. WINOSi AM explained, by declaring, that he h a d never applied the ridiculous expressions attri buted to him, nor any thing like them. Mr. CANNING expressed the utmost astonish ment at the manner in which the CHANCEL.LoR of the ExclirQUEß had argued the question, so differ ent from that of his Colleagues, who had spoken of Mr. Pt TT's proposal with approbation and resped, and rather objeCted to the time of its discussion, than to its principle. The real object of the Right Hon. Gent. seemed to be; to held out the proposal of his Right Hon. Friend in the must odious and detestable light ; as if, by a forced ballot, it meant to raise men for foreign service; and as if the whole plan wasfound. ' ed upon the most arbitrary and unconstitutional prin. ciples. Such a representation of his Rt. Hon. Friend's I plan, however, was totally repugnant to its meail. ing and design, and the sense and feeling of the House must completely refute it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who was now so alarmed at the idea of importuning men raised by ballot to extend their services, had hone of those scruples when he, within the last fortnight, eupported a Inca. sure for bringing the Irish Militia to this Country. This was an inconsistency which it was for Ministers to explain. Was it decent or becoming, then, in the Right Hun. Gentleman, to describe the tendency of his Right Hon. Friend's plan, to importune men raised by forced ballots to go into foreign service .? The only objedion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Colleagues was, that the present was not the fit time for the plan. But they agreed, particularly the Noble Lord (CAsTLEREAGEI), though, in defending his own measure, yet, as it seemed, willing to have two strings to his bow (a laugh), expressed a hope that the principles of the plan might he discussed on a future occasion, a hespe, which he firmly trusted, would be speedily realized. Mr. BASTARD contended that the plan pro. posed by Mr. PITT would be the most arbitrary and uric-institutional that could he conceived, and instead of its exposing men to be importuned, would, he feared, expose them to be dragooned into ge neral service_ He contended that rhe Militia was a constitutional force which ought to be carefully .cite. rished, and without meaning any disresped to the Army, he was of opinion, that time Militia was a constitutional check on the Army. As to the Army of Re erce Bill, he wished it was wholly repealed. It had been produalve of much hardship and mi. sery, as he had witnessed, and he hoped pit would never be renewed. The plan oldie Right Honour. able Gentleman seemed calculated to produce all the evils of the Army of Reserve AE., without the plea of the necessity. He contended that the Country was ' in such a state of preoaration and defence, that so far from being afraid of invasion, they longedio meet the Enemy. • Mr. HAwscoNs BROWNE defended the conduCt of Ministers. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose, with .consi. derable warmth, in reply to what had fallen from Mr. CANNING. He said that a more unenaritable miscnnstrudion of his Right Hon. Friend's .argu.. ment could noti be conceived .; and he was astonished that the Right Hon. Gent Leman, who had once.called Mr. ADDINGToN his friend, and wits acquainted with his charader, could suPpose him guilty of an ire. tent ion to hold out Mr. Pert's plan as odious, detest able, and unconstitutional. With resped to the spon. tanenus zeal of the Country, he apprehended that it would be long ere any Administration formed of tiv Rt. Elon.Gentleman opposite, would have the credit of calling forth any spontaneous zeal in the Country. As to the variety of the measures of Government, it might be as justly said, that they who opposed all those measures, which they contended were never right, were justly liable to the suspicion of having never been right themselves in indiscriminately op posing measures. He contended that the Army of Reserve Au had .done as much as could be expeilt. ed, and that the plan of Mr. PITT, even if adopted, would not raise so many men as was proposed to be ,;:aised by Ministers.. Mr. CANNING slid, he had understood, and did understand, the scope of the Minister's argument to be as he had stated. The CHANCELLOR of the ExcoEQUER. observed, that nothing he had said or thought, could justify the imputation of the Right Hun. Gentleman. Sir j. 1:" ROTT ES LEY appealed to the Hnuse, whether the impression made by Mr. AD DING-TON'S Speech was not what had been stated by his Right Hon. Friend ,(Vlr. CANNING.) Sir Joßst was pro ceeding to, enforce this, when Mr SPEAKERstated, that it was the custom of t he H ou se, if any Member conceived himself misun derstood, to consider the explanation he gave as the true meaning of what was imputed to hint. After some farther conversation oh the point of order, Sir j.kriROTT ES LEY proceeded to argue ;n fa. your of the Motion, and remarked, that the CHAN.. CELLoR, of the EXCHEQUER seemed to consider the Army of Reserve Bid as he had considered the Right Hon. Gentleman behind him, only as a boat to ferry him over, and to be discarded when there was tio further occasion for it. Sir R. BUXTON forcibly described the evils of the Army of Reserve Mt in its operation, and sup. ported the Motion.