The Sun. — London, England, 1822-03-29 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT. 0 . 13-$E Or; LORPS, THURSDAY, MARCH 28. .:rhe Loaf) Cii : A'ick.At.on. having been detained at Carlton Palacetili, , ,a 'late hour, the House' did antlialfepasefive o'clock. Toxii.iNs, from tie Treasury, presented returns of the .total amount of the Fiveand Four. per Cents. before the last _ Aet waa pasied; and of the Four per Cents. since the comple. - t.zu of the measure.—Lail on the table. Mr. Jail MST owe, from /he Chief Secretary's office, in Ire land, presented returns of:tile:lncrease and diininution of Sala c.ps ta . Public tiffico , irilaCind. , --,l2aid on the table. • Mr. Itr. - 3 - 04,. ten tiliCanairtdty, presented a copy of the •::omtnissior.. fort,execdtirt theeffice of ,Lord High en the:table. DEEDE4N IRELAND. .:"kly Earl, of ...1 3 / 4 .stsijort postponed the fnr -Pier . proceedings: on. the Irish Deeds'. Register from _to-mortals , - to. Monday., the 22(1- of April. The, Noble Earl took this opportunity of . observing, that he had been. represented in some of the daily-,..popers to have used expressions •the late debate. ou'lrish Tithes,_ with regard to college'lisfii4o,liio 7 .were regarded in.lreland : zo be ltarli.and.se.rere, — lf we understood his Lordship rightly, he -lroit eXPlained that what he -had said on the occasion: alluded to, was', that trier F'ellows of the Coilego:of: Dublin, when they toot - livings, usuallY:'lot: the collage at, an age fat. advanced to eii;ablethe,m to accommodate 'themselves to the new situation in which they ere placed. • - . . • ILORDS OF THE ADMIRALTY. Lord 311.ersi.t..Li. presented the Bill.of which he had giyeti . ,ilat'ice esterday. Their Lord. ship; would see from the paper- which had just been laid- onithes-lable; that his Majesty had: been advised to reduce -,the number of commis sioners of the Admiralty from seven to five. The. _House did not need to be informed that a certain , riumber of . Lorda-wereaequired,to go from time to. time to the-outports:,-•SNI T- Ifen the number of Lords Is-as seven, lour could be Spared ; as, by the acts of Parliament fOr regulating the office of Lord High: eertainlwwers' w ere given to the whole of the Commissioners'otto any three of their number. If these acts remained in. force, it would be im possible to -go-on without risk to the public see . - vice, now that the.number of Commissioners was, -reduced. In the Commission now laid on the - table, the tininber of Commissioners necessary to 'form a quorum had been reduced from three to two; but that was net sufficient while the Acts. to which he . had allude! :remained in force.— With respect. to the proceeding by which this re uction had been - produced; he must say, that it vyas one in thepropriety..of :which he could not -concur ; and which, had . - he been a Member of the other House,. he . sficted• have thought it his . ' <3.uty to oppose. He wonfd.not, however, now . , , enter into any detail of the:reasons on which this opinion was founded: Inithe,first place, he ob jected to all reductionS of this description. .Li the second place, he olijetted to this particular reduction, because. the redoction of two Members of the Board would. tend greatly to obstruct public business. He • could, if necessary, assign many reasons in proof of this opinion. If the .proceeding of the other House had only gone to reduce one Lord COtiimissittner, whatever ob jection he Might still have.had to. it, he could not say that public business ite , , the time of peace 'would be 'much impeded •by such a reduction, though he was convinced • that if a war took ,place, it would be necessary' to replace the nUm her of seven. But with a view to a state of peace, a would have been much better that the re -Auction had left six than five. As be had said, he would not enter into _details; but if any Noble Lord thought fit to call for the grounds of .his opinion, he was prepared to state them. All 'he should add was, that - instead of the reduction proving a measure of economy, it would be found ..to be one of considerable expense. He now gave notice, that he would move the suspension of the Standing Orders in order that the Bill might go through the remaining stages, and be sent to the 'Commons without delay,:as. - it was necessary that it should pass before the,liolidays: Their Lord shipc, he apprehended., Would. have no objection to this course. - The Bill was then read - K first - time, and or dered to -be read a second:time to-morrow.-- .Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS.. WEST INDIA PRODUCE. AIr.CANNING presented a Petition' from certain proprietors , of West India Land, at Liverpool,, complaining of the depres ,sed value of West India produce, and • praying, amongst other rerr.edlls ' that a negociation might be opened with the United Stat - 14 of America, to place the trade of the West India ISlands on t‘..11 crams footing with those States - as formerly. The:Pe, prirticularly eomPlained of the low, price of sugar *ad rum, and suggested that the duties 'upon ihost • articles -shouia ba removed or lowered, and thit they cOnsidered the 41.:..Fesaion in the prices of these•articles to'arise from the great importation of them from the Island of puha. The Right nonourable Gentleman said, that as ft was thecobttmplar tion of his Majesty's Government to institute - somerneastire with refcrence to this subject, he would refrain' fitim'inaking .ao; observation that might have a tendency toforetali the'dis vvussion which would shortly take place.—Read, and ordered to be printed. 7 I '7 The Right ffon. Gentleman then presented another Petition from Live pool Merchants interested in the tilde •of Canada with the %Vest India Co/onies, praying that the restrictions on .the commerce betwixt these Colonies and America inighti not taken elf, as it would affect the dealings in grain at present. _-tub: sting.—Ordered to be printed. C. it. ELLIS presented a Petition from certain Planters. of the West India Colonies, and Merchants interested in the •-csithmerce of those islands, complaining :of the-prevailing .tress from low prices, and praying that the tradebetwixt these- Colonies and the United States of America might be opened. • 'l'he i i on. Gentleman declined entering into any. statement that • aught anticipate the discussion to,merrow on this subject.— O:d-ered to be printed. • }The lion. Member also presenteda petition,•praying an in •.ettiiry into the prov.isions of the Acts of • p a rliament relative: to and into the transactions of the West India Dock Corn .pany, in order to means being teroti to:protect. the property of prsons interested in the 'West India Colotlies;:from the.ex -.lsotions and the excessive rates of the Company ; by it renewal • of their Charter.--Petition referred to the Committee on Foreign. ',Trade. Lord NORMANBY presented a Petition from the City of 'York, praying for the release of Mr. Bunt. „The Noble ,Lord seconded the prayer of the Petition, on P.ccaiiiit of the severity of the sentence, anti the unusual hardships sheered • lir the pri soner in Ilehester Gaol—Ordered to be printed: .. • ... .Mr. HUME moved for a Return of .the partic.ulusa of the Contract entered into to supply the Hulk's with ProvisionS foi -a-certain period. The /Ton. Member also . moved. for an 'and Military Expenditure of the Islaiid.shf OpeinseY 11%14 ,Ter-,* , aey, and also artAceount of the Reyeritie,;Of.- tliOse Ordered. :Mr. HUME postpon'ed his'lnotidn.rittiectinh tit3il • tiet.,, which stood for this evening, till to-ruorrow l ion as undicstand , ins that it was to come on before ttietoMin4fee of Supply, RATE OF INTEREST IN..TRE -COLONIES. MAeiTERT,QN 1.1131, na ol;irig. for: leaVe: to: .bring-iii :ABM forregulating the rate of•intercst in the British Colonies and in Ireland, stated that by art Act of the 14th of his late Majesty, persons possessod of real estates in Ireland and in the British Colonies, axe empowered to grant severities for money at the legal interest of Ireland and the Colonies, al though the securities should be executed in England. It was, however, found extremely 'difficult to raise money. on such se tunties without an obligation for payment of 'the interest in England ; and as such collateral security was considered as .bringing the transaction withiri the provisions of the statute of Queen Anne against usury,eue Act was passed in the last Sese sion for explaining the Act of, the 14th of the late King, and declaring that such Collateral 'security for payment of interest in England should ndt,expoie the parties - concerned to the penalties of the statute of Queen Anne. It has been found that the provisions' of the last mentioned 'Act Were not suffi ciently extensive. Many Cases occur, where tenants for life e and trustees under family , settlements; have the poiver of Charging estates in Ireland or the Colonies with debts limited, , . . to the legal interest of Great Britain, namely, 5 per cent, ; and it has seldom been practicable to obtain loans of money in 'lrish or Colonial estates at f that rate of interest. In order to provide against this difficulty, and to enable persons so situated to borrow money in Irish or Colonial estates, it is proposed to authorize the persons possessing these powers to borrow money at 6 per cent. interest, being the legal interest "of Ireland and her Colonies. It is not intended that the es tates themselves should be charged with a higher rate of in terest than is authorized by the powers referred to, but it is intended to empower the borrower himself, or any third party, to become bottled for the payment of the additional ..one per cent:, so as in that the interest shall in no case exceed that al lowed by the laws of Ireland and the Colonies. He stated that he did not anticipate any objection to this Bill, as in the .present distress of the agricultural interests, and the difficulties of the West India proprietors,* mustbe the wish of Parliament • to' afford every facility to the proprietors and planters in raising money on their estates. • Mr. BENNET presented a Petition from two persons, com plaining of the practice that prevailed of levying fees for respite ing trial, when the trial is put off without the wish of the parties, in consequence of the non-attendance of the Jury. The Hon. Member stated, that he knew this practice to prevail to a great extent, and call for Reform. • ; • After a few words from Sir E. KNATCHBULL, :he Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. MR: 'HUNT. Sir R. WILSON said, he had a . petition to present from the inhabitants of Bethnal Green, praying for the liberation of Mr. Hunt. - The Petitioners stated; that it• yeas not their with to offer any insult to the House, hutwhen they saw it openly pub. fished as coming from the mouth of a Member of that House., that the practice of seat-telling was as notorious as the sun at noon day ; and when they 'read in the New Times of the 13th February, that a Mr. Spooner had stated at a Meeting at Wor ceeter; that the House was filled with " boys," who.were sent there to vote whichever Way the Minister directed, and that he had seen them collected from coffee-houses, balls, and other Such places, to rive their votes, orsly requiring for that pur pose to know on which side was the Marquis of Londonderry, and which Mr. Tierney e they could not help thinking these things being uncontradicted, that the punishment of Mr. Hunt for merely expressing an opinion that Reform was necessary, was too severe. The Hon. Member concluded by moving that the Petition be brought up. Mr. DICKINSON said, he was as anxious as any one could be that the doors of that House should be thrown open as wide as possible to admit the petitions of the peg le ; but he did think the language of this petition was not of that respectful nature that could entitle it to be received by the House.— (Hear, hear !y---,lt was a most foul calumny to say that " bays" came to that House to vote.--(Hear, hear !) The House then divided:— . For the Motion Against it - - - - 67 'Majority against receiving the Petition---50 Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the Inha bitants of Ashton-under-Line, Lancashire, praying for the li beration of Mr. Hunt, for an inquiry into the occurrences at Manchester on the 16th Augtist, 1819, 'arid for a Reform in Parliament.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. HUME said, he had a similar petition to that just pre sented to diet. ; but after what had just passed, he was. at a loss to know how to proceed. The petition of the people of England had been rejected without being heard now. it was an ieeult to the people, and-nothing pointed out the necessity of that Reform prayed for more strongly than the manner in which the late Petition had been treated. He repeated that such conduct was an insult to the people of England.---(Cries of " Order.") _, The SPEAKER said he was sure the Hon. Member, on re flection, would see that the House could not permit those out of doors to use the language alluded to; and he was quite satisfied that in no one within the walls of that House could it be con sistent with order and decency to persist in a course thus mani . festly obnoxious to the House.—(H ear.) Mr. HUME said; he had always understood that it was the right of the people of this country, to petition Parliament, and he had yet to learn that it was the right of that House to reject those Petitions without having heard them. If, upon their being read, there appeared to be objectionable language, they might be rejected. - The Petition he had to present was from the Mayor and Commonalty of the Town arid Borough of Mon routh. It stated that, in their opinion, the salvation •of the country depended on a Reform-in the House of Commons, and, that without this the liberties of the people, already in a linger ing state, would beoverwhelmed. The Petitioners also stated, that they were aware that Petitions of this nature did not meet with the attention which they thought they deserved from those who called themselves the Representatives of the People. They .concluded by stating, that they joined- the already countless number of, their countrymen in praying for a speedy and effec tual Reform of the House of Commons. He (Mr. flume) most cordially joined in this prayer, and was convinced tha t, in spite of all their temporizing, that Reform must come at last.— Ile moved that the Petition be brought up. Lord G. SOMERSET did not think there was any thing ob jectionable to the Petition in point of language, but he must say that he did .not think it was the Petition of - the Mayor, and Commonalty of Monmouth. ' - Mr. COURTEN-AY rose to second the motion Qf the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,- that -the Petition be brought up. He did this, in order to point out the manifest difference betwixt it acid that 'which theAlouse had rejected', in the language.— (El ear.)—lf that Honeurable Member ' could not see the dif. ference, he (Mr. Courtehay) was at a loSs to understand why, • even in his opinion, it was so palpable. Ile could not help remarking, however, that , a , fter -they had -heard the objection able-language read by the Member presenting . the Petition, it was not. quitefair reasoning to argue, that the Petition had been 'rejected without being heard- read. - That, he appre hended, was quite sufficient ground for the House to express an opinion upon whether cr no the Petition was of a nature to be received. The greatest enemies to the right of . petition ing .were those who advocate the indulgence in the most licen tious language. This Petition was of a different nature in lan guage, and therefore he supported ,the motion for its being ' received. s . .. Mr. BENNET contended that the only test by which a petition presented to that Hotise was to be t - jed was, whether it was presented for the purpose.of insult, or for the purpose .of exposing a grievance, , and praying for redress. ' Trying it .by-that test, there -could be no objection to the petition which. had just. been rejerited. It set out -by stating that the petie tioners had no wish to insult the House. CoUld any one doubt. that the late Mr. Ponsonby had used the eifiression im puted to him ? If any oneelids b. was really to prove it at the bar of the House in five iiiinnies ; Mill if any one doubted the : fati.that . the Parliament of 1805 was : corruptly constructed, he vibuld imly:aSk La have one Of the' Secretaries to the Treasury of that period at the Bar to prove it also. That House must be reformedsooner or later ; 'and he must say that he agreed with LorlisCrithain, that-if it did not reform itself, it would be re-' formed frOm without with a vengeance. Sir J. NEWPORT said, he had given his. vote for the ac. 1 nePtanee ~ of the petition, upon the broad principle that the ilouif i ihouid- hear the,contents of a petition before it decided upon receiving or rejecting it. That,';he thought, the House was at least bound to do, . irithe exercise Of. SD severe a power. A judgment could not be formed on a single passage; and pro be.bly; had the context of the petition been read, it would not have been rejected. , • . .:. ~ . Sir R. WILSON explained. Ali. - .DtutiWN said, it.was the:business of a Member to .tsiien to the House thecontents of apetition before he moved for its reception ; and upon that the House. was competent' to de cide whether ehe petition should or should not be received: The scandalous assertion that the House was filled with boys was 'suffititiretci justify its rejection. . , Sir M. W. RIDLEY coincided in the opinion expressed by his Hon. Friend near-him (Sir. J.' NeWport), as to the principle of receiving or rejecting petitions. Mr. Alderman WOOD thought the House had misunder stood the contents of the petition in question, inasmuch as that it did not state the-objectionable : Or abont'bnys, .Sec., is their own' seritimenth a but aa•having been epbkeet by a Mr, Spooner; at Worcester; , : - The Petition was then read: •"- , Mr. HUME, in moving that the Petition' lie laid' on the table, begged to-, conteadice the 'ataiement of the Noble . Ltird opposite (Lord George Somerset),. that thie was notehe, Peti e • tion of -the- Mayor . and-'Commonalty erase 'Triwn raid 'Bo rotigh of Monniouth ; he positively declared, that although none -of the Noble• Lord's' supporters 'night =be-among the Pe titioners, that it was signed by:thelate Mayor s the Bailiff; and many of the Burgesses. • : • . e . s - . Lord •U. SOMERSET :did Inot Mean to cast any impute.; tions on the 'persons who had signed this Petition, but he Should not do bee dty.ttethe inhableglet: •td" that respectable ••- • • tin town, if he did not say,, that to his knowledge he did.not per ceive the name of any one of the respectable persons affixed to the Petition.—The Petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. W. LAMB laid upon the table a Petition from owners and occupiers of land, near Hoddeson, praying relief. IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE took the opportunity of staring, with reference to Papers moved for and then on the table, relative to the state of Ireland, that there were two points greatly complained of, with reference to the - management of public business in that country. - The one was.; that there was considerable delay in making returns to the orders of that House, and the other, that the peasantry of the country were charged with the expense of making them out. In his opinion the public offices were bound to furnish papers to that House without any charge. But it -would be seen by the records that-the exactions for such expenses on the people of Ireland amounted to from three to five thousand pounds a year. He hoped the simple mention of this would „cause' an' end to be piit to the practice. The Re alms to -which he referred them on the table were respecting the Spirit Licenses, and the amount of Malt Duty ; by which it would be seen that the relief to Ireland from the remission of the Malt Duty was not equal to what had been anticipated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Great abuses . still pre vailed as to the spirit licenses, and he thought the whole sys tem must be revised. He moved that the Returns be printed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that he had expected that the proportion of relief to be expe rienced by Ireland in the.remission of the Malt Duty would be 200,0(101 Since that time,' however, he had learned, by inquiry, that it Would not be above 100,0001. He would not, however, enter into a partial debate on these subjects, and thought they had better wait till the Report of the Commis sioners of Inquiry- was received. He was not before aware that any local grievance was suffered by the people of Ireland in consequence of the Returns to the Orders of the House. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that almost every year since he had been in the House he had had to complain of the great de lay of the offices in Ireland in making out Returns to the order of the Houk. But he thOught the practice of making a charge upon the peasantry of Ireland - for obeying the orders of that ouse, deserved particular attention. The object of - these Returns Was to .- see whether the, officers had abused their power towards the peiaantry, and it was too much that the peasantry should suffer a further charge' for the iicittse exercising this power of controul. He knew himself eases of clerks of the peace swelling out their fees, and getting them allowed by the Grand July to maketrom 40001. to 10001. a-year. Mr. CHOKER thought-the House had been accused rather unjustly of overlooking the subject which had been mentioned. If he understood it rightly, the charges in question could not be paid unless they were allowed •by a Grand Jury ; and if any mdividaals had made incomes of 5,0001. or even of 4,0001 in this way, the Grand Jury had neglected their duty. It was but fair that the Hon. Baronet should place the saddle on the right horse, and give the blame where it was due. Unless this were done it was not to be expected that any good could. ever be done by noticing the subject at all. .The evil, if it ex isted to the extent supposed, was to be charged to the Grand Jury, and the Grand Jury alone could supply the remedy.— It might be fortunate that the complaint had been made, as the notice taken of the conduct of the Grand Jury in that House would be likely to haVe more influence on the mindi of Gen tlemen of their rank in life than any notice that-could be taken of them in another way. He, for his own part, should not expect that the Gentlemen of the Grand Jury would be likely to throw away their own money, for their own it was, in some degree, which was thus disbursed, in the manner sup posed ; but if 'charges to the amount stated had been allowed, the fault lay with the Grand Jury, and not with the Govern ment, nor with the Parliament, nor with the officers. Sir .1. NEWPORT said the statements which he had made were contained in the papers up stairs, which the Hon. Gent. might looked at if he pleased. He considered it to be the duty of that House to look into such proceedings. - The Papers were ordered to be printed. GAOL PRESENTMENTS. _ Mr. S. RICE moved for an account of the number of debtors and criminal offenders in the gaols of the county of Dublin, and of the Grand Jury presentments for the expenses of the Prison. Sit J. NEWPORT, in reference to what had before passed, maintained that there was no law to warrant the slightest charge for any return to the House. Mr. CROKER remarked, that at this momeirt there were no more clerks in the Admiralty than were absolutely necessary to get through the ordinary business of the office ; and if re turns were required, persons must be hired to make them out. Only last Week a representation had been made from one of the subordinate departments, that it would not be pos , sible to make out returns in future, and that the last required had been prepared only by great exertions and working over hours. The ptopriety of hiring assistance must be left to the heads of the departments. • S. RICE, mentioned, that in Tipperary, where the clerk of the peace received between 4,0001. and 5,0001. a year, 2201. in one instance, and 3001.• in another, had been paid under Wand Jury Presentments for making out returns to-the orders of the House of Commons. Yet thiS duty was piescribed to the Clerks of the Peace by statute. He trusted that the notice now taken would remedy the evil. MANAGEMENT OF THE DEBT AND ~BANK BA- LANCES. ' • Mr. BANIES, in moving for the printing of certain Papers relative to the Sinking Fund, begged to. ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in contemplating reductions for the relief of the country, he had ever taken into consideration the Propriety of reducing the expense of managing the public debt, and whether he would object to the appointment of a committee to investigate the subject ? The CHANCEELOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that he had not contemplated the propriety of reducing the ex pense of managing the public debt.. Until the expiration of the Bank Charter, he conceived that the question had been settled by Act of Parliament. Mr. GRENFELL said, that the law officers of the crown had certainly given an opinion favourable to the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but every thing depended upon the facts of the case _submitted to them, and the-manna in which f. ose facts were stated. He had read the case and the opinion, and apprehended that a different conclusion would have 'oeen arrived at, had that case been properly made out. Mr.. Horner, unquestionably a very distinguished authority, had given a different opinion shortly before he left this kingdom never to return. It wrs true that in 1808 the amount was settled at, 4501. for the management of every million, but even that was in opposition to the Act of Irel. The country owed the greatest obligations to the Committee of 1807, which had made so clear and so decisive a report upon this subject, and which had pro duced an annual saving of not less than 242,0001. Ile entreated the Chancellor of the Exchequer,as the guardian of the public purse and as the champion of economy, to take the question again under his consideration, and to consent to the reference of it to a Committee. Admitting, however, that the arrange ment of 1808 was final and conclusive, still :there remained a very tit source of economy which the Right Hon. Gentleman had not touched--the public - balances in the hands of the Bank of England. They had indeed -formerly amounted to , 11,000,000., and now were reduced to 4 1 000,00014 but upon this sum, at the rate of 3 per cent., the interest was 120,0001. Without the slightest injustice to the Bank, he (Mr. Orenfell) was convinced that'a saving of morelthan 200,0001. a year might be made to the country. , A MEMBER, whose name could not be learnt, called the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to 'the unelainied dividends. He wished to know to what result the inquiries - of the Right Hon. Gentleman had lei ? - • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he would shortly ascertain the propriety of - reprinting the list that had already been made out. The dividends were applied.to the public service, - not to the Bank. e •, , ;,. It via_ then ordered that the papers should be printed. HOUSE TAX IN SCOTLAND. Lord A. HAMILTON moved for Returns of the total amount of the Duty of 4s. 641. paid in - Scotland on althouses which paid a yearly rent under 51. for the last year. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER liad no ob.. jection to the production of the return moved- for bythei Noble Lord.--It was ordered accordingly. . MINT REGULATIONS. Mr. GRENFELL, in moving that the lieturni of Silver Coined be printed, observed, that the Mint Regulations had been extremely creditable to the Government. It ,was now proved, that all the alarin 'propagated in the letters tof " An Old Merchant," and others of the disappearance, of the ()Old, in consequence of the seignorage taken on Silver, were entirely nafounded.—Ordered. MIDDLESEX COUNTY COIIRT. Mr: LENNARD rose to make his motion relative to the County Court of Middlesex. That Court was established. in its present form by the Act of 53, George 11., the constitution of which the Hon, Gentleman proceeded to describe. Two years ago a return was made to that House, us consequence of a motion made by him, which stated that the number of causes decided in County Courts amounted to 17,000 in London and Middlesex. lie had reason to know that last yeat they amount ed to nearly 18,000. -The population had increased considerably 'since the pasiing of the Act. In thehundreds of Ossulston and ,Isleworth more particularly; additional duties were therefore necessarily imposed upon the Magistrates. Having stated the number of causes at 18,000, and that the Magistrates sat two days in each week, it would be found that they decidedabeut one hundred and eighty causes per day. It sees therefore impossible that justice could be done as the business was now ' carried on. The Court ought to sit more frequently. When the plaintiff took Out a summons, the defendant was obliged to attend from nine o'clock in the /naming on the next Court day, and was often in consequence of the :order of the II " detaiiked till late in the evening. It was others ; but who in this delay that led to the practice of employing agents, and it had again come forward with their (deities.. " •- frequently happened that in consequence of it, debts were relin quished, or paid without any just demand. If a Committee SUPPLY. On the motion thatthe House should resolve itself into a were appointed, he thought thay would be of opinion that the Committee of Supply, Court ought to sit more frequently. Another abjection was that the Court was not sufficiently central. The jurisdiction of Mr. GRENFELL complained of the manner in which 'ord nance contracts for old stores were entered into. The biddings it extended from Red Lion-street to Turnham-green. The should be public and not private, as they had so long been. He number of causes were, on an average, 180 every day. On some wished to know if any contractors were allowed to waive their days the summonses amounted to 450. Something might be done to remove this pressure of business, by sitting more fre- contracts ? quently. The salary of the County Clerk was quite sufficient Mr. R. WARD concurred with the Hon. Member as to-the propriety of having all sales and purchases as public as-pos to call on him for a discharge of more business. He had no sable. For years it had been the practice to sell by private as charge to bring against Mr. Heath, the Gentleman 'who filled well as by public sale. In a short period, stores to the amount the office at present; quite the contrary. He made a reduction of 140,0001. were sold by private sale; in only one instance was in the fees of the Court, which were now one-sixth less than in the time of his predecessor. In his return heitated that his pre. there a large sale of iron to Messrs. Crawshaw and Co., a most - respectable firm. This was not done until after mature' consi decessor received 3s. upon every case, which was now reduced to respectable They *anted to make the sale where they could - find 2s. fad. He stated the number of causes yearly to be in round numbers 17,000. Out of these he paid the house rent of the Court the best market, and were, besides, and the salaries of clerks. Besides the Court clerk, there were given time ; such were the reasons obliged to sell within-a which governed their con other duct—reasons satisfactory to the Ordnance,` though probably officers receiving fees, such as the Crier. He understood that the predecessor of Mr. Heath received the fees•Of the Crier not so to Hon. Gentlemen' opposite. It was true that certain himself, and paid a-salary for discharging the duties of the office. persons wished to get off their contracts, and he had received Taking the causes at 17,000, the income of the office would be various offers by way of compromise ; but the Board of Ord - • 2,1001. a year, and supposing 5001. to be paid out ofthis in rent nance peremptorily rejected them. and salaries to clerks, .11tere would remai n . to the county clerk Sir U. BURGH said, the Board of Ordnance should be left to their own discretion in making sales as well as purchases, .or between 1,4001. and 1,6001. Some fees were received which he else they could not get on with the public business. believed were not authorised by Act of Parliament, such as that for postponement. On taking out an execution for the seizure would go to throw a'discredit on the mode of doing business in of goods the fee was 35.41, whether a seizure took place or not. every other. office. The sale alluded to need not have been Another circumstance Worthy of consideration was the amount of money paid yearly into the hands of the clerk; and the ba- pressed on the market, as iron was not a perishable commodity, and would have been kept for years. There might be excep lances that might remain unclaimed. The sum in hand was not tions to public sales, but iron could not come within those ex less, one year with another, than 8,0001. or 10,0001. During ,ceptions. Having said thus much, he begged to ask, why the twenty-five years that the last gentleman held the' efree, no ac sale of old Ordnance stores was not put under the head of- in count was given of unclaimed money. There Must be large sums of that kind, where debts were paid in at the rate of fideor come, as was the case in the sale a Navy stores ? He did not mean to say the proceeds were not credited to the public ; but ls. a week, for which persons living at a distance would net it certainly was a bungling way of keeping the accounts. think it worth while to call. Various other circumstances, such . Mr. R. WARD explained, and said, that he admitted the as the death of plaintiffs, must occasion balances to remain tin- . general propriety of public sales • but still contended that. a claimed. Anollier inconvenience worthy of the attention of a discretion should be vested in the hoard. In a recent case of a Committee was that those who had money to receive were re. sale of saltpetre, the Board received many hundreds more than stricted to four hours in the week; from ten till two o'clock on Fridays. The Hon. Member. concleded by moving, that the return laid upon the table should be referred they would have done by a public sale. to a Committee, Mr. GRENFELL - understood that the Hon. Gentleman to inquire whether the fees in the County,COurt of Middlesex (Mr. Ward) unequivocally pledged himself Last year to have no other than public sales, except in - very particular cases. .If might not be diminished, whether the bounty Clerk might not to sit more frequently in the Hundred of Ossulstoe, aodi the Board of Ordnance acted right, all the other Boards must n the other hundreds of the county. have acted wrong for years. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said; there Mr: BERNAL opposed the motion. It did not aPPeer to was a great deal of discussion without much difference of opinion him that his Hon. and Learned Friend established any ground' on this subject. All agreed: that publicaompetition was not only 1 for it. The . proposition, in his opinion, ought to originate in a petition from some suitor of the Court, stating ground for corn. the safest course, but also the freest from suspicion. So far did this principle operate that all the money transactions of the plaint. There appeared to be no complaint against•the gentle country, such as loans, were always contracted for in public. man who now filled the office. He discharged the dutiee of it to the satisfaction of the suitors, and expended, out of his own Sir J. NEWPORT said, an unlimited discretion, as con tended for by the Gallant Officer (Sir Ulysses Burgh), should pocket, 2,0001. for the erection of a proper Court. Ile was not never be vested in any Board. ' at all overpaid for his laboers ; and as to any emolument aris. ing from the causes heard at Edmonston and other places, it Mr. R. WARD said, he was sure they all agreed that sale by public should form the rule, and sale by private the exception. was expended, he believed, in the journeyings to and from them. It was to be considered that the gentleman who filled £236,339, to complete the charges for Land Forces of Great the office used to practice in another Court, but had lately given Britain. £236,330, to complete Land Forces abroad. up his practice for the purpose of attending solely to the busi ness of the County Court. He thought it would be occupying The Report of the Committee of Supply was then brought eta and the Resolutions were agreed to, after a few exceptions ueged to no purpose the valuable time of the House to appoint a Com by Mr. Iftemo, particularly against the Staff of his Royal mittee on this subject. The only Proper ground for such a pro. Highness the Duke of York, and Military College. The. Hon. ceeding would be, either a petition from the Homage Jury, or. Member concluded by moving that the vote proposed should be from a suitor of the Court. reduced by the sum of 3,4221. .. The Hon. GREY BENNET said, it was not the object or his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Lennard) to make out any Mr. F. PALMER objected to the' propoied ode. criminal case against the County . Clerk. From the showing of Lord PA L MER said, that the utility and expedieneY of the establishment had already been fully discussed, and he that o ffi cer himself, his Hon. Friend' proved that substantial should -not, therefore, occupy the attention of the House in ", again adverting to it. justice could not be done to the suitors of the Court. There was no charge against Mr. Heath. The object. f _ the motion , . was to procure a more speedy dispatch of business. Ile should Sir H. HARDINGE said that . the ob j ections of the Hone for Aberdeen to the proposed vote were not then intro .. like to know if the situation of ounty Clerk was not bought H diced for the first time to the attention o f th e House. e had and sold—if the gentleman who now filled the place had not . on a former occasion, and by his felicitous a nd peculiar method C bought it ? The Sheriffs of the County should not be allowed of calculation, stated that the expense of educating a single cadet cost the country 7201. and that but twelve or thirteen out of those • to put this money into their pocket. If it was a situation that might be purchased, the greater the fees were, the greater would who were so educated obtained commissions each year ; and he . be the sum expected for it, and those who had the disposal of it had added the number of those who entered the College ever! would of course have an interest in increasing the tees. He looked upon it as a very fit subject to go to a Committee. year, as if they were to have been provided with commis,siattee It immediately upon the expiration of that yeare instead, as it was would, perhaps, be the best mode to bring in a Bill for regu- necessary by the regulations of the College, of continuing there ' lacing the Court. If, however, his Hon. and Learned Friend four years. Thus he proceeded in the same way, as if he were (Mr. Lennard) moved for -leave to bring in a Bill, he would then, perhaps, be told that a Committee should first inquireinto calculating . the Members of that House, upon this novel and in the subject. The Court, from the information he received, re- genious principle, that because there were 668 Members these in the present year, ergo, at the end of five years the number of . quired some regulation. Causes were decided there by a Jury, Members must amount to 3290. Another complaint which the , but he was told that the twelve persons who sat in a corner, ute. Hon. Member made was, that the commissions were not bestowed der the name of a Jury, were shabby looking men, .more like u p on l u p on those in whose favour convicts than jurors. The class which sat there, as-he had been the deserving, but sim p l y informed, was such as would not be considered fit for jurors, in. Parliamentary influence was exerted. Now, it was quite hue the proper acceptation of the term. w ssible to supersede a cadet who had passed his examination. The SQLICITOR-GENERAL said it was true his Hon. .rie obtained his commission as soon as a vacancy occurred, and the only in stance wasthe i e n as w e h o i f ch a h y e ou e n v g er m kn an ew w and Learned Friend (Mr. Lennard) brought nocornplaint against practice, a ho de p l as . se the Gentleman who filled the office. No petition had been pro, iati d on a f inp rom sead tha . t tented from any suitor charging the county clerk with miscon- mirable examination, and who, in consequence of his very duct, with a delay o r a denial of justice ; such being the case, efficient answering, was placed at the head of the list—a young he did not thiok that any Parliamentary ground had been esta- man, the son of an -officer In a Veteran battalion, who was blished for going into inquiry. The Member for Shr b ews UV quite unknown to the Commtinder-in-Chief.—(Heer !).—At the (Mr. Bennet) said the Jury was of a class which ought not to-sit very same period, too, a young raileman had passed, and most creditably, his examination. The name of the officer's son for the decision of causes. If the Hon. Member would refer to was Adams, and Lord Falconer was the young noblemanee— the Act of Parliament by which the county court was regulated, (Hear !)—He thought it right to state these circumstances, in he would find it there provided that they were to be of the same order to remove .4 most unfounded imputation upon the man' class as the Juries summoned to decide causes at Nisi Pries in nor in which the Commander-in-Chief presided over this De' the Courts of Westminster Hall. In cases of misconduct, a partment. remedy was peovided, for the two Chief Justices were vested Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, that the allusion of the with summary jurisdiction to regulate the Court. There was• Gallant Officer was quite irregular. He had been referring no necessity, therefore, for applying to Parliament. The consti. •to what had passed on a former occasion, and he had ms re tution of the County Court was so good, that Sir SVm. Black- presente d hi s ca l cu l at i ons . H e c onten d e d ' i that he was right as stone•selected it-for particular praise, on account of the small to the expence incurred by the country for the education Of amount of the fees. If any fees had been taken improperly, every cadet who entered that college. One hundd fi ve r years, why not complain to the proper jurisdiction ?—lt was not, he actually obtained commissione in the coarse o f five years, -thought, quite fair on'the part of the Honourable and Learned though four hundred and fifty were educated. 'Gentleman (Mr. Lennard) to insinuate that the present County The House divided— Clerk, or his predecessor, had acted improperly, when no pe- . tition had been presented to that effect. lie must inform the • For the amendment - - - el 5 • • Honourable Gentleman, that a complaint had been made Against it - - . . . .33 • , against the person who last filled the o ffi ce :it was examined Majority - - -' - — 2 - . by Lord Ellenborough and Sir Vicary Gibbs, and found to On the motion that the sutn of 35,0001. should be granted be destitute of foundation. The only ground now offered for • to the Master-General of the - Ordnance, for payment 1 , clerics, ' inquiry, was, that the - causes were too numerous to be decided . • - ' in two days out of every week. The County Clerk was 'not r' cc. HUME proposed an amendment to reduce the proposed' confined to two days. On the contrary, it was his d rite by uty, by •10 , 0001. Act of Parliament, to sit a sufficient number of days for tits- Mr. WARD b o served upon the peri od t ha t the Hon. _lf op patching the business. The gentleman who now filled the office b had selec ted for found two days quite su ffi cient, and he never retired from Court as er the whol e of t he Barrack and Comm' • Commissariat Department were till every cause , was heard. The inconvenience complained of about to be brou ght under the direction of the master of the that suitors were kept waiting from nine in the morning did not • Ordnence . without any additional charge, he thought it right to exist, for, to • prevent delays, the day was divided into two per. propose such a reduction. . tions, and different causes heard in each. The average number The amendment • was put, and • negatived without a division. of causes was not 180, but 160, of which half were undefended, 'On th e l motion, that a sum - (which could not accurately be beard) should and of course soon disposed of. There were, therefore, on l y 80 _ould be granted for the Medical Department, defended causes ;and in half that number, the only defence Mr ' HT* IE proposed the reduction of 1,5001. from this vote, L II was a plea of poverty ; soehat the actual causes that could cause the sum psi to Sir J. 'Webb, for the very useless occupation any delay, were but . forty or.fifty. The gross receipts of the. - whic h . he h ell , and which ought to be done away with: . office Were about 2,0001., out Of which rent and officers were to ser U. BURGH said a few words in reply to Mr. Hurtle. be Paid ; so that the salary was not more than 1,5001. For this the. County' Clerk had very laborious, duties to perform. He Mr. WARD said, that to meet the observations which Mre was obliged to attend two days in the week for hearing causes ; Hume had made upon the character of Sir J. -Webb, he begged two days also were set apart for payments to be made out of to inform the House, that that Gentleman had been 27 yeare Court. • There were two or three persons employed in this duty, and eight months in the British service, that he had served, in for the money paid in was not less than 38,0001. a year. He almost all parts of the world, and had been honoured with the was unwilling to assent to the motion, because, so far, from approbation of all the officers under whom he had served. • He thinking that the Constitution of the Court required alteration, wished particularly to call the attention of the House to the cir he thought it worth y of imitation ; and because the acntleman cumstance , that at the evacuati on o f E gyp t, when. a p articular there who now presided ere discharged the duties of it with the tit- disease had appeared amongst the troops, he had volunteered Most care, zeal, and 'assiduity. re m ainin g behind, and that b y his cave lie-had perserved man/ After a feiie words from Mr. Letihard, Mr. %V . Smith, M r , of the troop. This was the person whom the lion Gentleman P. Moore, and Mr. Courtenay, the motion was negatived wi t h: said was perfectly new in. the army.—(Cheers.)--1. more bold' out a division. . . _ . , assertion , and at the same time a more unfounded one, he-had IRISH FIVE PER CENTS. - - never heard.—(Cheers.) - The Irish Five per Cents. Bill went through a Committee, Colonel DA VIES rose to order. . • - the Report of which was read, and ordered to be taken into fur- ' Mr. WARD resumed. He thought that he had said enotte ther consideration to-morrow. respecting the services of Sir J. Webb. The Hon. Gentlemeel had asked him, if -Sir J. Webt excused attendanceeir • ROYAL BURGHS. The Royal Burghs' Accounts' Bill was read a second time; and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. The LORD ADVOCATE .said, he proposed to have it committed then pro forma ; and after it should have been printed,. to have it fully discussed. • Mr. MAXWELL remarked, that he, with many other Mem bers wished to make several observations on this Bill ; but t m • derstanding that it was to be committed only pro forma, he had no objection now to offer. - • AMERICAN- LOYALISTS. • Mr. WILLIAM SMITH: wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, why no part ' of the money which had last year been voted for the Americanloyalists had yet been paid ? After 30 years of solicitation, they had been allowed 10s. in the pound; but not ls. had yet been- paid. The • CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, the money was issued at once ; but others had come forward with clalins, as valid as those of the list which had been before the House; and the delay had been occasioned by the di ffi culty of ascertaining who were really entitled to the money. Mr. W. COURTENAY had understood that no steps were taken to investigate their claims. .The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that very considerable pains had been taken, but that it had been found very difficult to proceed: If they once stepped out of the list which had been before the House, it would be extreme ly difficult to find a limit to the claims. Mr. W. SMITH said, the claims had been brought forward . by those who refuse 4 to `embark in the.. same • course with • .. 2 • • - - . •• -Jb was not ex,. Woolwich ? He would pointedly answer' " No." Sir J. - Webb was regular in attendance upon his duty, and in his turn at , tended the Hospital. The lion. Gentleman had also assered; that many junior Surgeons had been withdrawn to make way for Sir J. Webb. For that assertion there was not the least foundation. Col. DAVIES explained. He did not mean to deny the , merit of Sir J. Webb 9 • but there was in every man's breast a desire to speak well of himself ;- and though the account which Sir J. Webb gave of his services might be substantially true, yet he (Col. Davies) would affinn, that there was not a single assistant-surgeon who had served with his regiment in the Fe* ninsula, who had not done, more than Sir J. Webb. - Mr. HUME explained. He denied that the Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Ward) had refuted his statement respecting Sir -x• Webb. Mr. T. WILSON supported tie origir i ;rant. - The Amendment was then negatived wii.riout a division, art' the original Resolution carried. The other Resolutions were then agreed to. - The Irish Commercial Credit Bill was read a second time; &her some observations from Mr. S. RICE and Mr. GOO' . BURN, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. The other Orders of the Day were then read, and the House I Adjourned at ELEVEN O'CLOCK. Lord MILT ort has, from the indisposition of his Lady, bee____. n prevented attending his duty in Pa r liament , up to the For' period - of theSe.ssion. • • v '