The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-21 00:00:00

The Proviso in the Clause relating to Resignation, which prevented these Volunteers from resigning who had entered into any special engagement to serve during a particular period, was agreed to be left outs On the Clause respecting the Allowances to Vo lunteers on being called out, Mr. PIT!' said, that as the Clause stood, the Guinea to which each Volunteer would be entitled who came out on permanent pay and duty, tvas to be placed in the hands of the Commanding'Olicer to lay cut the whole or part, as he should think fir, for necessaries for the use of such Volunteer. Noes, when he first took the liberty of suggesting to the House the propriety of improving as rapidly as pos sible the discipline of the Volunteers, he conceived that the idea of the House was to hold out to each Volunteer distinctly a bounty for so doing. It was agreed that many must make great sacrifices in coming out on permanent duty, and he did un det.stand that the principle of giving a bounty toe each individual was acceded to. But he could not help thinking that the bounty being disposed of as provided in the Bill, it must operate as an impedi. :Dent to any encouragement to the Volunteers to come out, as the sum to he given would no longer be at the'disposal of the individual, nor would he he enabled to provide for his family out of it during his absence. The money was thus prevented ft= becciining What it ought to he, a substitute for his earnings during his absence. As to purchasing great-coats and other necessaries out of this allow ance, it was clear that the Volunteers must have those necessaries for taking the field in case of emer. gency, whether they went on permanent duty or not. It was clear, therefore, that in merely holding Trot this inducement to them to go on permanent duty for two or three weeks, in order to attain that state of discipline which was so necessary and irn. portant, there was not that encouragement which ' was adequate to the objeet. If they wanted the advantages which would result from the Volunteers thus corning out on permanent pay and duty, the only way of inducing them to do so was to offer a bounty whiCh would be a real sum in the pocket of each individual. It appeared to him that this pro vision in the Bill was likely, in a great measure, to defeat the ob'oaa of the. Clause. He then adverted to an .Instruelion issued by Government, recom- Meoding that those Volunteers who had large fami lies likely to become chargeable to their respective Orishes, should not be called out on permanent rluty [for which see a subsequent Column). The material °Ned having been to obtain aa• many Volunteet Corps as possible on permanent pay and duty, Parliament had not only proposed to give a bounty for this purpose, but also to make provision for the Families of Volun teeis so coming out, in the. same. manner as:with respect to 'Militia-men. If a large propOrtioe of the Volunteers had families, and were not, there- Use, to he called Out on permanent duty with the rest of their. Corps, it might have a very bad effect upon the Force of the Country, as, in case of their bring called out upon actual service, when perhaps one-third, or one-half, or two-thirds cf a Corpi had been for three weeks upon permanent duty, and the -rest not, the.whole might be thrown into confusion from the inferiority of discipline in the latter. Could any man suppose, that for the sake of a contingency of families becoming burdensome to a parish, those Nvlio had families ought to be prevented from attain ng discipline ? who having greater ties and ciciser connections, they would be the more induced 'to fight for their homes, their altars, and their country. If any preference was given in compos ing a Volunteer force, it ought to he to those hay ing.families, as from the nature of the service they - were required to go only to a_short distance from their homes, and only for a short period, unless :called out . into actual service. It did appear to him a little singular, that whilst Parliament were adopt. ing measures for inviting all the Volunteers to come tout on ,pertitanent pay and.dtity, that another sys:em .sboald be adopted by Ministers, and that it should _be requiredtha't those having familiesiikely to be. oine chargeable to the Parish should not be called He was of opinion that every Volunteer :ought to be invited to come out, whether he had a ,family_or not. There was besides a provision made . for their 'families, in the event of their .absence, and at any rate, the Clause in the Ati, and the system adopted by Ministers, were utterly incurs. sistent.r. , , •• • Secretary' YORKE contended that the Guinea .ought not to go indiscriminately into the - t ickets of the V,luntrer•, as, though there m ight h e s ev era l industrious men with fatuities, who might wish to appropriate the money to the use of those families, yet t h e re were others who might probably lay it Ont. JO procuring those indu:gencies which were mot very consitent with the character of a soldier.— Malty inconveniencies might likewise arise from Votuhteers having their money given to them to spend in a town where there might be other Troops. The money besides would of course only be laid out in necessaries, if the Volunteer stood in need of them; if co the contrary he came provided with them, the Commanding Officer might immediately pay the money to him, and at any rate would be accountable to him for it by Law. As to the instruftion issued by Government, it was merely recommendation to avoid as much as possible 'la_ Bing on rernianent pay anti duty those Volunteers Nrbo had families, which were likely to become Chargeable to the Parish. He knew that much incon xenierce had arisen last autumn from taking men from their families to a distance on permanent pay and duty, as they frequently returned with habits not very congenial with industry. The only ob. deft of the instruhion in Short was to inform Coin. manning Officers that they were not obliged to take with them on permanent duty, every man of their Corps, but that they might, and were recommend ed to `leave chore behind who had families, - which would be left without support. Mr.WILBEgF:)RCE supported the ideas urged by Mr. PITT. a. A 1 f.' ROSE, said, that with regard to t h e i n. strutiurt which had been sent by the Secretary, re_ Lorrilirending that Volunteers ss jib iamilies should not' be called out pun permanent duty, it would, in his opinion, be produEtive of very. bad conse quences, because it would eery materially ohstruEt progresi-of the Corps in the attainment of tary discipiiui. There were two Corps of which he had considerable knowledge, and he had glade ing , iiries to ascertain the number of married men with families in each of them, and he found that in one of them three-fourths of 'the men were mar ried and had families, and in the other one,half. If then it was necessary that these Corps should be perfelted in their discipline, it would be absurd to suppose that it could be done by calling out on per_ manent duty in one case one half, and in . the other case only one-fourth of the Corps. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that these instructions were not mandatory, but left a discretion to the Lord Lieutenant or Conn - handing Officer; hut how. ever they were intended, they would be considered as, mandatory. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would alter his instruaions, and leave it in the discretion of the Commander of a Corps, when it was called out on permanent duty, to dispense with the attendance of men in extraordinary cases, when, for instance, they had eight or nine children, it would certainly take.. away a great part of his objection ; but un doubtedly, if every man who had two or three children was to be left at home when the rest were called -out, it would inevitably injure the discipline of the whole Corps. The CHANCULOR of the EXCHEQUER said,;that Gentlemen seemed to target, that the Vo. lunteers had already made considerable_ progress in their discipline, and therefore, it was not now so essential that every man. should be called out as it was before. A wish had been expressed, that • a discretion should be vested in the Commanding Officer, with regard to the mode of applying the Guinea that was allowed upon their being called out on permanent duty. This discretion was, in fad vest ed in the Commanding Officer ; because he was not desired to lay out the whole of the money in the purchase of articles for the men, but only as touch as was necessary :—this Guinea, so applied, had operated as a considerable inducement to the Vo. lunteers to offer to go on permanent duty ; for,, in the course of last year, no less titan z4.,000 were called our. With regard to the instruction whch had been issued by his Right Hon. Friend, he can. tended that it was not absolutely mandatory upon the Commanding Officer, bdt left him the discretion to leave at home such men as he might think proper, in consequence of their having large families. It was clear that the Country would have a great deal more to pay for disciplining men with families, tl;an those who had none. This was certainly not a rea. son why the former should not. be called out ; but it certainly deserved consideration.; besides, in many instances, it would be produelive of great in. convenience, if men Who had.._ large families ,were separated from them for any.lerrgth of time. Mr. KINN4IRD denied that, this guinea was ati inducement to the Volunteers to come ogt ; '„eal..t in tieothiod, I;eekitrec.'in ,faet,they,were not paid,' He wished to know whether , this guinea. was to be paid to them, and if it was, whether it was-in the discte tion of the, ComManding Office( to lay it Out for the men in the .purchase of necessaries .for them ; and he also wished to know: whether that 'uineal was to be considered as a part of the awo guinea's which the Volunteers were to receive when called out in case of 'lnvasion Mr. YORKE said, it was owing to a mistake that the Corps in the North did not receive the guinea when they were called but last yeat - , ,hut, it certainly would vbe paid, and :the Commanding ;Offi cer would Tiave to lay it out according to his dis, cretion..in purchasing necessaries fur the: men, turning the ovrrplus to the men. Mr. STURGES BOURN4 contended that the Guinea allowed ought to be paid diredly to the Vo. lunteers, as an 'inducement' to them to offer their services for permanent dUti; Tile) , came out last year because they were told of Invasion, but they would not come out upon the same groo:ais now when they were told, rs they had, been in Parlia ment, that a ll apprehensions tn on that subject was a mere paa.ic, and that thc Fleet - at Baulegne was a Musquito Fleet. This Guinea plight therefore to he given to the .men, and even that would be.but a sma ll c o mpensation for the loss of time they 'would sustain in being absent from their labour for three weeks. _ Mr. O.EoRNE concurred in the same opinion. Air. PITT said, if he had understood the Instruc tion sent round by the SECRETARY Of STATE, ac. cording to the constrOion now put upon it, he certainly would nut have troubled the House about it, but certainly that was not the way in which it was generally understood. He was perfaily satis fied with the explanation he had heard, and should ad accordingly ; but he submitted, whether it might not he proper that some means should he taken of informing others who might have understood the Instrudions as he had done, and who had not the advantage of hearing the explanation which had been given. He would not say any more upon that subjc,A, but he wished to do away a miscowtrudion which had been put upon what had fallen from him. It had been represented as if he wished that the Guinea should be given to the men as soon as they were called out, in order that they might spend it in drunkenness and debauchery. He had never said that he wished the money to be paid to the man as soon as he was called Out. It might be paid to him after the time for which he was called out was ex pired, or it alight be paid to him in different por tions during the time he was out. He should there fore propose that the money should he paid to the men within one month after they were cal led out, or sooner, if the commanding Officer should judge necessary. It had been sa id, t h at it was always intended that the money should he laid out in necessaries, anti particirlarly for great coats ; but this could hardly he • the case consistently with the other provisions of the Bid, because it was proposed that the man should only receive a proportion of the guinea, :•cclrding to the time he was out, for instance, seven shillings for one week. But if the money was to he laid out in the purchase of a great coat, it would not be very easy to purchase a great coat, which would cost at t h e l o west 1 6s. out of seven shillings, and to pay the overplus to the man. In the case of In vasiOn he dill not think the money ought to be paid in the first instance to the men, because then dry were called out compulsorily and for an unlimited time ; but the case was very different when it was an ohjed to induce men - to go out in order to i;73- prove themselves in their discipline. Mr. Pt yr concluded with moving an amendment to the clause, the objea of which was, that the Com manding Officer should pay tlte guinea to the ma) within one month after he was called out en permanent duty, or sooner if be sit3uld judge necessary. Mr. G. VANSITTART opposed the amendment. General MAITLAND alici - disailiroved of it ; hi said, many cases might occur, in which a man cal led out for three weeks' duty might want necessa, rics, which, according to this amendment, he migh not have till the end of the month. Mr. Y. CARE* also disapproved of the . amend ment, because he thought it inconsistent. with the Volunteer System that they should have . pay. Mr. W. DUND AS conceived it to be highly tie. cessary, that the money should be paid to the men as an inducement to them to go -upon_ permanent duty ; and as to the objeetion which had been made, that the men might want necessaries before the ex piration of the month, there was nothing in the amendment of his Right Hon. Friend that would prevent apart of the money being advanced before the month was expired. Mr. HOB HOUSE was of opinion that it would be much more advantageous that the money should be laid out for the men in purchasing necessaries, than that it should be paid to them ; and of all ne cessaries he thought none could be more useful than a good great coat. Mr. H. L ASCELLES approved of the Amend ment, and contended that it would not prevent the Commander of Corps from laying out the money in the purchase of necessaries for the men if it was applied for. It was really impossible that men could be expeded to come out unless they had some com. pensation for their loss of time. Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON said, that the most advantageous way of laying out this money would be to purchase great coats, which were in point of fait absolutely necessary. With respect to the price of them, he knew that so far from their costing three or four and twenty shillings, that very good ones might be had for 13s. Mr. CANNING said, that the guinea which was to be allowed to the Volunteers 'who offered their services for permanent duty had been very improper. ly, in his opinion, compared with the marching guinea allowed to the Regulars and to the Militia. With regard to the latter, when they were ordered to march, it was not optional in them to march or not, they were bound to do it ; but - the case was very different with regard to the Volunteers. You could pot compel the Volunteers to offer their services for permanent duty, and therefore the guinea was given to them as an inducement to them to go out. It then became necessary to consider whether it would be a grea:ea :-aa it ii;;;; :Zr ;el ;Tam trrn; ;113 pinta must at all events he laid out in necessaries for him, or to give him his choice tohave either the money or the necessaries ;_because the Commanding Officer was not restritled by this Amendment from laying out the money in necessaries, if the man wished it, Rut it seemed to him absurd to contend that the money must be laid out in necessaries, and particu. larly ill great coats. 'Suppose a man was only out a seek, in which. case he would be only entitled to seven shillings of the guinea ; such a man, he supposed, instead of a great coat, - would only have a Spencer. If he was out only a fortnight, theta he would have a Spencer, with one skirt; and if he staid Ilia whole three weeks, then he was 'to have a whole great coat. t had been said, that there were twiny . Ar t icle) which it was absolutely neces sary .that these Corps should have ; and it was ask, ed, " Who were to pay them ?" His answer was, gi The Public." If the services of these' men were essential to the Public Safety, these Articles should undoubtedly be furnished at the Public Expence. Mr. POLE CAKEW explained. The SECRETARY at WAR defended the Clause as it originally stood in the Bill, and thought the Amendment unnecessary. He said that , upon the general observations which had been made upon eco nomy, the question stood thus :—Whether.the Vo lunteer who went out on permanent service was to be allowed the great coat and other necessaries, and also the marching - guinea ? If this was intended. then Gentlemen should come forward, and avow this as their intention, foie their arguments went to that- extent, although they had never yet avowed it. The only question in reality was,. whether it was advisable that a Volunteer who came- thus forward upon permanent duty, should have the bounty in money or in a number of ne. Cessaries to he provided for him according to the dis. cretion of his Commander ; which of these two modes was likely to be the most effectual and truly henefi. cial to the Corps whO should come out ? He was of opinion that providing the Volunteer with these ne. cessaries was likely - to be the most effeCtual and bene. ficial for the Volunteer, and for that reason he was in favour of the original clause and against the amendment; and he illustrated this by observing, that an individual Volunteer when called out on the sudden, inight be at a losskto procure at once those necessaries of 7 whi'elt he might be in need, and he might he made to pay extravagantlyfor them, whereas the Commander, by buying a great number together, might have them at a cheaper rate, and the man would in this case be sure to be provided with them at all events, whereas if he had the money, he might be placed ,in a situation in -aOncli he might not have them at all. Nor was this any hard• nip at all on those who were completely equipped, for in that case they would have the guinea, for it was a _bouoty at all events to be advanced to every Vu. !weer who thus came forward upon permanent duty. 'Mr. W. WY NNE was against the Amendment. General G IiOSVENOR said, he never was an advocate fur this guinea at all—it was one out of two g uineas to be allowed in all to the Volunteer, -and he sleand vote for its being laid out as proposed by the original clause, and not by that which was proposed by the Amendment. Mr. RO.S'Z thought, that the principal objeft to be considered was; that which was most likely to operate'as an inducement with men to come forward upon permanent du - Iy, and 'make themselves better fit to meet- the Enemy by superior discipline to that posseis . ed at present. In that view of the case, he was inclined to think, that the Guinea would heve a better effed than the dloaths, gen e. rally speaking, and that determined him for the P amendment. He ridiculed the ideas of Mr. g• AoottioroN, on the scare of cheap doodling could have wished, if these ideas were corre c t, (,° know the direction of the Right Hon. Gentleman tailor ; but the truth was, that the expen ce Cloathing had been much understated, for Ile kne w °f ,",., from an Inspetting General of a Distritl, "",c was as great an enemy to foppery as any. man in t'' Service, that' - the lowest penny at which a Volun• leer's cloathing could be purchased was He answered the objetlion to this guinea beings bad` bad precedeOt in the way of pay to the Volunte" by observing that it . was not in the nature of par. but bounty. Mr. JEFFERY, of Poole, spoke upon „ A t ' b ri e same sublet", and did agree with the Right " -k g nourable - Gentleman that a Volunteer's great-Oa could be bought for thirteen shillings. If he vv e ,, f ,. 6 to present such a coat to one of the Corps "" had the honour to command, he should expeet It t° be thrown in his face. His Corps had 3 b z e s e h n permanent duty, and the men had received their g" neat in seven and five shillings at a tiny-, and th e era was no murmuring among them. He though t c present Clause wanted a great deal of explanati °l ' a least, if not amendment. Mr. KINNAIRD was apprehensive that et & clause was very defeetive, and indeed inconsistel': with the rest of the provisions of the Bill. He wa r not quite sure that in strict military language, a g re _, — coat would come under the head of necessarie s ' — e Neither was he perfeCtly sure that a Voluntl, might not maintain• an atlion against his Comma" ing Officer who &dotted, without his leave, orli / part of his marching guinea. Mr. BULLER thought the instruttion of tit: SECRETARY of STATE upon the subjed o f c allin g OM the Volunteers very proper. He professedb i T; self a friend to economy, and that was one of t:, reasons why he supported the present Admi nisffr ; tion of this Country, with which he never had alli connettion. He was not ashamed to confess hi l l self a friend to economy in public affairs, nor his he any scruple to declare that other Admini stratio would have been better for the Public if eenn °(ll) ,, had been more their study. He was determ ine " , , -- 1 negative the amendment and vote for the u ri e a' clause. . of Mr. FONBL ANQUE thought the I.anguag e , ;nz the clause doubtful :—He thought the Coalmanue Officer had full power by the clause to proved` the Volunteer with what was necessary, I n ' then what was necessary was in a great me!: sure a question of taste. A great Coat 0g1"; appear • necessary to one man, while a nothe a might prefer a feather. The question here wa s 0 question of inducement, what was most likely to c e a c . a man into the fi eld before the enemy comes, 0 when becomes we shalt none of us need inducement' • but before lie comes, what was most likely to bri4 i a man into the field ? To be provided with what 1 1 , .Commander thought necessary, or with what hill); self thought necessary ? He apprehended the lot"; and the guinea in.the pocket .was mor4 co,octuci ' re o i l the end than the coat to the back, for which teas he supported the Amendment. s ? . _ For the Amendment. . .For the Original Clause without it /339 end' The House then proceeded in the other Pi a of men's in the diffetent. Clauses of the Bill, °- „ t h, which produced a conversation of considerable 15111' ably supported by ' . „ Al l,. Mr. H. LAsCELLES, the SECRETARY of o' sit Mr. Ross, Mr. P. CAREW, Mr. W. WYNN E ' t hC WILLIAM GEARY, and Mr. PITT. It W as st et Clause providing that no agreement betwerm 0 1 ii, and servant, in agriculture, Ste. should he ifor s er , . tot dated by the servant being inrolled as a V.OIIAP o ' e 4 but showing the master to dedoet a reasonable P r y„ portion from the wages of the servant, why s hw i l ceive pay while he goes out to be trained and excised, &c. ott ° In the course of this conversation it Was thr t art he out, that there had been too much disposition 5.. ter in F armers to discourage 'the' System cf Vo o . ° AO Service ; and, at the end of the con V e rsaticlich Amendment was adopted, the substance of , 5 ,,,. for was, that the Farmer should make no tietitleb °- r dess the absence of his servant on suoth o ccasionso, 3'; ll / '' that absence be more than four hours in on e (I ,, s r, in The diFission on the proposition of Mr. yAs s ' . I proceeded to a considerable length.. of 1. 1 Mr. PLIT described some regulations, in, the wai n ds, o . i i ) lot, which he thought would answer the pr , opose d i c i r - ~v e j \ furnish a compensation ore the part of the. Vold ° ,Ta c c l: t" - 1 , 44 may . resign, &c.. for the temporary hardship, "V" . is ''''',, c :. , previous exemptions imposed upon other iiidwiJoViild ''', were generally liable—He: thought the regulation ' iide to, better introduced as a Supplementary Proviso, an d, bc to iftl reasons he had stated, it would be a fair inducement %. R oe, lunteers to remain in their respeelive Corps, wh,cn t.h e .; JP. that such a real and efficient Ballot as lie had descri be. '" ht no t a count:al one, was hanging over their heads. gir • Mr. sioa Kr. appeared adverse to the ideas o f the , ii i t c,l): Hon. Gentleman. He thought the present pra.iti::c. '' ',„,•001', to be efficient to every desirable purpose ; beside, It k ieiv • cause a great deal of additional trouble to the DeputY ~ 1 tenants. sir S l , The Conversation continued between Mr. G 1 1., O f i t see st GEARY, Mr. BANKES, Sir I.War-rtst.xv,ani t '..3.4 31° tary Y.oaxg. : the latter did not entirely set his Ot i t 1 ; ii 1.4 the introduction of any alteration in that part 'of ' bu t at t d P f He was averse from doing any thing in a hur r y' „; 6;14 ",.. same time he wished so be understood as 11 0 t s. ''' ‘ a bje';, pledge to his proposing any thing specific upon was th=at I', 'The Clause proposed by Mr. VA Nst rT.t.it I* viT 3 ' gatived. i whon 0 The consideration of the Amendment pi-accede( , ~. r oc. Mr. C A LCA An r respecting objettions, (IP' principles, to the Clause Apprentices. . 4 ., e . , i of l io .h r e m S , P re to the taking the Clause itself into consideration• qighti•:o, i.tta Amendments acquainted should tlieH o b n e . IN , il i e s ii)notsxerd t o r 1 ; revs cr.f. Mr. CALCR AFT adverted to his notice of last o ' or ia- ria moving for a Legislative Provision for the paYl rs ° : o n a t e, cies, cloathing, and equipment of the Volun . t e f, i, but l'. o a two first heads his propositions were then prep..(rc , ..., 0 04 int , ing learned they should regularly be previously, I:'therrne ward. The consideration. claus e ' Mr. BANICES expressed his hostility to the • el . ..- be A % r i r; general grounds. ren t.— t ..- c snore elfed.tually employed in the service 01 kuS,, Poi lea G ve ene to ral as G k ßa G s e v n g trm ß en i w n hsettihPrat4 of the Cl iv i a'Ll Et : r::: h r il li c' by defending him, his shop, trade, and f i a t "' iti ittc - c' legions of Bonaparte the CO - ' The Clause in question, as amended by , on' was then agreed to by the House. • , r i to the il e t' 6 retqllueinredbr'llini°r° 111:p.700 On the Clause respeeting the powers give se tliei' c o3.r: minding Officers to arrest Volunteers, and ca? . . n wn' i ~..ic. held in custody for misconduct on certain occasion `',lit -.1" I,i tailed discussion took place. The Gentlertlf" _ L n , ti. , • ; I. were, • .•• ' bie 6ll 0 1 Mr. GILEs, who ofFered sorie strong ° L er , .i , ~ ' , , wording of the Clause ; Mr. .1 t yr, tno p , i vi• WAR, and Mr. SkiLRIDAN• t ort, tOrl P at° A great part pf !his was of an explana