The Sun. — London, England, 1853-05-11 00:00:00

?HE SHARE MARKETS. BRITISH RAILWAYS. RAILWAYS. Closing Prices this day. 'Aberdeen Ainbg. Nottng. Bost Eastn. Junct Birtag. Wolverh. Stour Valley Birkenhd. Laucsh. & Cheshire Juliet I Do. Chesh. & £5O and £25 Cons. Do., £2O Bristol and Exeter Caledonian Chester & Holyhead Cork and Bandon '' Cork, Blackrock and Passage Dublinkßelfast June Dundee Perth &Aber deen Junction Do. New East Anglian (£25 L and E. k, L. & D.) Do. Do. (181. E.& H.) Eastern Counties...., Eastern Union, Class A. (late E. U. Sh.) Do., do iDo., B. au d C East Lancashire East & West Ind. Dk Birming. June iEdinburgh & Glasgow' ,!Edin. and Peebles 'lEdin. Prth. &Dundee Glasgow &S. Western Great Northern Stk Do., A. Stock Do., B. Stock Great Southern and Western (Ireland) Great Western Irish South -Eastern Lancaster & Carlisle Do., 'thirds..... Lancash.& Yorkshire Do., Fifths Do., Wst. RidingUn. ; Leeds N or th ern !Liv.Crshy. &Southpt. !London & Blackwall Loud. Ti lb. & Sthend. Lond. Britt, & S. Cst. London & N. Western !Do., Fifths Do. , £lO Sh.M.&B. C London & S. Western Do., £5O Do., £4O Londerry. &Coleraine Lndndrry. & Ennisk. Manch. Shef. &Lincln Do., Man. & Lin. Un Midland Do. Birming. & Derby Midland G. West. (Ir.) Do. Shares Newcastle & Carlisle Newmarket Do. Bury Extension Newp. Aberg.&Hftd Newry & Enniskillen Newry, Warrenpeint, and Restrevor Norfolk Do., New N orthn.Counties Un North British North Devon, No. 1 Do., No. 2 Do., A A Deferred Do., 3 B Guaranteed North Staffordshire North Western N. & S. Westrn. June Oxford, Worcester, At Wolverhampton Scottish Central Scottish Midland S hrewsbury & Birmg Do ., L. & N. Westn Guaranteed Stock Shire vsby. & Hereford S hrewsby. & Chester (Nor. W. Min.) Do. Halves do Do Do. O swes t i y Shropshire Union South Devon South Eastern South Wales S. Yorksh. River Dun, Do. Stockton & Hartlepl Thames Haven Dock and Railway Vale of Neath Waterfd. & Kilkenny Waterford& Limerick West Cornwall ir abledon&Croydn Woodford York Newt:U. &Beier. IR% Extensions YOrk CNN. E. Purchase & N Midland PREFEREN Abo r --- 7 -- k ei - 1 --- BDo N No. 2, 7 p. c.... uri3 . & Ex. p c. St. Caledonian Sha . rs ... £lO C hester & Holyhead Guar. 54 per cent. Cork& Bandon 5 i p.c. Dundee, Perth, and Aberdeen Junction E. An. (705.) 6 p. c. Do. (X 5), 7 per cent. Do. (£7l7s), 7. p ct. Eastern Counties Ex tension, 5 p. c. No.l Do., No. 2 Do., New 6 p. e. St Eastern Union Scrip Guar. 6 per cent East Lancash. 6 p. cts Edinb. Prth.tt Dund Glasgow &S. Western Guar. 5 per cent Great Northn. 5 p. c Do. 5 p. c., Redeem at 10 p. c. prem.. ,Gt.S outhn. & Westn. (Ireland) Eights Gt. Westn. (Berks & Hauls Ex. 5 p. c.) Great Western, fixed 41 per cent Lan. & York. F. £2O Do., 6 p. c., Stock London and Brighton Guaranteed 5 p. e Do. Pref. 5 p. c., St.l Do. Convertible, 5 p. c., 1852 Do. New Guar. 6 p. c London & S. Western, Con. Thirds Londonderry (St Coler! Shares .........• ••• Londndry. (St Ennisk. Shares....... Manch., Shef.,&Lin., Shares, No. 1 Do., New, £lO . ..... Do., X 6 .....• • Marypt. dr Carl. 4 p.c Do. 41 1 per cent Do .. . . . Mid. Cousol. 6 p.e.St. Do. Consol. Bristol & Berm. 6 per cent.... Do. Pref. 4A percent. Norfolk Eitcnsion... Do. Guar. 5i per ct. Do. Waveney Valley 5 per cent...... ..... North British North Staffordshire Oxford, Worcester, & W olverh..£ls,6p. c. Do. Shrewsbu i7 & Birm New Guaranteed Shrewsby. dt Ch es t er Nor y. (Mb), 3 p.c. Do. 5 per cent. iSouth Devon HD°. New, S. Ea stern (Reading Ann.) f£l Os. 6d• S. Yorksh . 4p. c. Guar. Waterfd.&Kilk. 6p• e • York, Newcastle, and D terwick, 4 p. c. Pref. York & N. Midland, & S. Purchase... AaTiWrpßotterdrn Be lgian Eastn. Junct. Charleroi tit Erquelin Duonand Besanen•• Iten Rhenish.,. East Indian ............ Do. Extension Gt. I ndian Peninsula , Gd. Juliet. of France Gt. Westn. of Canada Shares ............... Lucca and Pistoja, 5 per ent. pref ...... Luxmbourg .......... • D o c it ......... .................. IDo.Lyo (Canal) ....... p.re.... . Do. 6P. cent. fns .................. Maria Antonia ......... Do New. ............... N amur 8: Liege (with interest. ............... Do. ex terest) ...... of France.. Northerno.2o/. 3 p. c. BdB - •/ 3 • &Anis. Shs. Norwegian Truk. Pre. Paris and Lyons Paris and Orle 'Paris and Rouen ..... . Par; and Strasbourg Paris Caen &Cherbrg. Quebec & Richmond Roue n and Sarnbre and Mouse... o. SA per cent. pr e . Southern of France.f. Itipper India Sc West Fla nders . rip... ..... Do. sit per c. P ref. .. iWestein o f Prance .. West. of S witzerland Now Zealand.. 29 - 30 6 - 61 10 -- 101 61 - 64(1 21 -- 22 cl! 3i -24 d 102 -- 104 684 -- 68 23i 24 22i 231 -1-s i . P . m " , 8 - 9 41 -- 4 4 134 -13 i 101 -- 1141 74 - 7i 73 - 74 54 - 51 72 - 74 32 - 34 89i -90 i 55 - 57 132 -134 113 -- 114 1 91 -- 914 8 1 -- t 92 --94g134 -- 11 p' 794 -- 80 4i -- 31 d 3 -- 2i d' 16 -- 161 i ,a -- 1i --2 i p, l 1041 -- 104 118 i -- 119 2i -- 3 p 90j -- -- 91 1i p: 5 -- 4d 4 -- 3Acl 12 -- 13 19 -- 21 30 -30 i 3i -- 75i -- 75 42 - - 441 -"" ... 50 - 52 - P 3i d 28 31 53 55 3k -2/ & 35k -36 k ... - . 4 -4i it 8• • - 8i ••• - •••1), 53 - 54 98 - 100 62 - 63 66 - 68 73 -- 76 Oid 18 -- 20 9 -- 10 13a -- -- 3k dl5 1 20i -- 216 75 - 75 - 36 -- 37 14 -- 1 3 19 -- 21 21 -- 15 -- 15 gi -- 101 34 -- 35 104 -10 i d -- par 70 71 1 , 7 d 2 2id 61 62 106 - 108 1107 - 109 19A --20Axd P 6 --.6ixd 4. 4 41 54 liP 2 -- 2i P -- 24 P 15 -- 154 18 - 181 3i - 3i ... xd 130 132 1112 - 114 si sil LOG - 108 P 152 - 154 55 - 158 3i- 41,l 10 - 11 13i —l4ixd 8 9 10.1 114 i ipxdi ••• 149 151 22 —23 t 1,1 2i 113 115 25a 26i1 23 2 pl 101 111 17A 183 15 16 )ar 4 p 261 19 203 bar ldl 106 5 1 s i l 3 P SIGN. 1d OAd 1 -- li 13A -- 14 3 -- 312 1 —O 5 —6 p 1 —lip 2i r l 2t 2 - 1p Ti - 7i p 4i -- 4; 4 - d- p 21-2 p 7 i - 8 37 --371 141 -14 i 8t -_ 9 18 18ip 44 - - 45 46 -- 47 37 i -37 i 53 -- 6 p 214 91 -- 22 P 1 9 , 2 a 5 1 " ) [L a li ..... business done this day. 6i 1 1021 69 81 A 24 Paid.l 100 •---I St. 20 18i 100 100 all 25 25 St. 50 8i all 100 all j all 11 all all all all all 100 100 4i 100 'lOO all ai 100 6i, all 5 174 all 100 100 100 100 6 i all 100 all llil 1001 r u s all 100 11 4 2C/ t 5 ~ 1 5 raT all 8i 100 100 MINES. 1 all Agua Fria 10s all Anglo Californian f p 1 10 2 Australasian par— 1 p 20 5 Australian 1 all Australian Cordillera 1 f p 1 all Australian Freehold. 4 4i d par 1 all Ave Maria 1 all Baden(Gd. Duchy of) par A p 1 all British Austrin. Gold * 1 p 14 20 13.5 British Iron 8 10 35 243 Brazilian Imp. (issued at X 5 pm.) 5 53 30 all Do. Cocaes & Cuiaba 44 44 20 15 Do. St. John Del Rey 30 —3l 3 all Carson's Creek - p 40 all Cobre Copper 463 473 5 1 Colonial Gold l/ —2l p 3 14 Copiapo 8.3 9 84 9 St. all CopperMinersof Eng 7O —BO 70 25 all Do. Preference 8 9 p 5 all English and Austin Copper Smeltg. Co l3 1 d 20 all General l5 —l7 2 all Great Nugget Vein — 2 p 4 3 all Great Polgooth par— p 1 all Lake Bathurst d 1 all Liberty P 1 all Lond. &Californ. Gold Quartz Crush. Co — 1 all Mariquita Bd par 10 9 Mexican &S. Americ 8 83 1 all New Granada 4 - 3 p 1 all Nouveau Monde ll —llp 21 a 5 1 Port Philip par— p 1 all Quartz Rock 1 p 14 50 all Rhymney Iron 24 —26 15 Do. New 7 8 30 10 Santiago de Cuba 6 1 all South Australian 10 7 Tin Croft 9 —ll 281 all United Mexican 43 5 544/ 1 a 1 all Waller 1 all West Granada,.., Ad p 1 all Weal Mariposa - 1 all Yuba JOINT-STOCK BANKS. 40 all Australasia B7 -- 88 873 50 all British N. American 20 2 Chrtd. Bnk. of India, Australia, & China a— 1 p 21 a a 100 25 Colonial 100 20 Commercial of Lon don ... 10 English Scottish and Australian ll ljp 114 20 124 Lond. Chart. Bk. of Australia 3 —34 p h 0 20 London and County 50 10 Landon Joint Stock ... ... 23 100 20 Lond. &Westminster 351 20 2 London Bank of Aus tralia and India 50 223 National of Ireland 25 all Oriental Bank of Corporation i3 —54 an 524 3ix new 25 5 Do. New — ••• 100 25 Provincial of Ireland 10 all Do. New . ••• 5 1 Royal Australn.Bkg (SE Gold Imp. Co 4d— par 25 25 South Australia ... 25 all Union of Australia 79 80 23 Do. New 8 9 50 10 Union of London — 183 40 all Union of Madrid MISCELLANEOUS. 100 35 Australian Agricult 1 82 84 83 20 8 Austrlasn.Peific.Maili 10 6 Anstraln. Royal Mail 38A Brit. America. Land 73 77 76 100 323 Canada 65 70 5 5 Crystal Palace s2l 21 61 74 4 2 Crystal Pal. of France a 14 31 20 1 Eastern Steam 1 1 Electric. Teleg. of Ir — 15 14 Gen. Steam Navigat 50 General Screw Steam 124 1 20 5 Irish Beetroot Sugar, 1 all Nat. Pat. Steam Fuel, 10 2 Netherlands Land., 1 20 7 31 Nrth. of EuropeSteam' 50 all Peninsular &Oriental ... 864 50 25 Do. Do. 100 60 Royal Mail Steata.. . 25 25 South Austral. Land 46 48 1 1 Submar. Telegraph Royal Mail Steata... South Austral. Land Submar. Telegraph. Universal Emigration and Colonisation...' Van Diemen's Land..) 19 - 20 MARKET NEWS-(THIS DAY.) CORN EXCHANGE. Notwithstanding that the supply of English wheat on sale in to-day's market was very limited, the demand for all kinds was in a sluggish state, at Monday's decline in the quotations. Offers for homeward delivery were somewhat numerous. _ Foreign wheat, the show of which was extensive, mot a dull inquiry ; but we have no change to notice in its value. Floating cargoes were exceedingly heavy, and easier to purchase. Scarcely any English barley was on offer, but the supply of foreign was good. The trade was heavy at Monday's currencies. Malt was very dull, but not cheaper. Oats were very dull. In prices no further change took place. Beans and peas supported previous quotations ; but flour met a dull inquiry. ARRIVALS TIIIS WEER. Wheat. 1 Barley. I Malt. 1 Oats. Flour. 920 I 530 I 2,870 1,370 1,430 1,500 17,870 1,660 ski English .. Irish •. • • Foreign .. 6,550 WHITECHAPEL. The demand for each kind of meat at this market to-day ruled steady. The following are tho quotations : Beef, 2s 8d to 3s 8d ; mutton, 3s 4d to 4s 6d ; lamb, 58 Od to 6s 2d ; veal, 3s 8d to 48 8d; pork, 35 Od to 4s 4d per 81135 by the carcase. BOROUGH HOP. The demand for all kinds of hops continues inactive, yet prices are supported. LLOYD'S SHIPPIAG-(TRIS DAY.) LONDON, May 11.—Wind thin day at Noon, N.N.E. ; light breeze and fine. OFF DOVER, May 10.—Shamrock, Sierra Leone; Spirit of the North, Grimsby, for China. DEAL, May 10.—The Elizabeth, of Liverpool, bound to London, was passed, April 21, 39 N., 34 W., in a very leaky state.: FALMOUTH, May 10.—Wind, N.N.W. Sailed—Vo luna, Quebec. Off. Port—Highland Mary, Now Orleans. PLYMOUTH, May 10.—Wind, S.W. Arrived—Sacra mento, Pernambuco. DARTMOUTH, May 10.—Arrived—Anna, Hamburgh, for Havannah, leaky. May I L — Arrived—Arctic (s), New York, left L s u i 3: l o E t u h l : P ß Alp ° A r L N il D , :3 1a n freight th . about wnd 50,000 dole. Quebec. The Resolution, on shore on the rocks, must discharge. SHIELDS, May 10.—Wind, N. by E. ia S , ail d e o d . —Reaper, , Martinique Gsy , r ; London, oQuebec Adam Clark of and from m Harwich, was in contact, off Flamborough Head, with the Blanche, when the former was abandoned, and is supposed went down ; crew saved by the latter. MILFORD, Livel.—Wind, N.E. Arrived—Dauntless, Carmarthen, forrpool, leaky, and with cargo shifted. DUNKIRK, May 10.—The Stag, which got on shore on the 23d of April, has come off, and is into port. SCILLY, May 9.—Wind, N., strong. A rr i ve: l—p one _ lope,Mauritius,cllT'MALAGA,ju ay for 1. Bristol.rrh eAlbert, which p u t i n h ere on the sth of April, leaky, will re-load and proceed to Fal mouth in a few days. BOSTON, April 27.—The John Trueman, Newcastle to New York, with loss of topmasts, &c., short of water and Provisions —out seventy-five days—was spoken and su p. plied, April 10, lat. 41, long. 65, by the Charles Holmes, arrived at New York. FATAL VISITATION IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.— Yesterday information was forwarded to the coroner of the death of Mr. William Odell, a master plumber, who expired in Westminster Hospital at six o'clock that morning. The deceased was engaged superintending some works in the new House of Lords on Monday afternoon, when he suddenly fell down. He was in stantly conveyed in an insensible state to the hospital, where, notwithstanding the exertions of the medical officers, consciousness could not be restored. Dispatches were received at the Colonial-office yesterday, from the Governor-General of Canada, he Governor of New Brunswick, and the Governor of Nova Scotia. 89 903 90 E 9 56 1333 pm 79 80} 80 12 8 i i 9 i i 105 1191 1 19 g 1 75#1 54 31 13 12i 13 3i 754 k 36i 10 i 34 70 13 i 121 i 9$ 61i 2 1i 1085 75 113 12 Inn 6 1 ,157 5i 11 x a 11501 50 1131 12i 11 26A IN 11 .05 4i 5i 103 i 37J 7 281 i 46, 37 8 7i 94i LINES LEASED AT FIXED R ENTALS. RAILWATS, Bedford and Bletehley Birm. & guarantee Do. without gr Birm.Wolv. Dudley guar. Do.w tht guar. Buckghamsh. Clydesdale Jc. E. Lincoln. gr. 6 p. cent Glstr.S;Dn.Fr Hrtlpl. Dk. & Railway Null & Selby Do. Shares Do. Shares Lon. dr Greenw Do. Preference Lowestoft gr. 4 per cent Do. 6 per ct Manch.Rxton and Matlock Middleshro' & Redcar Midld.Bradfd. Northern and Easternsp.c. Do. 6 per et.. Do.Fixedsp.c Prat. &Wyrei Do. i Shares. Itoystn.&Hit. Do.Shepth.St. Shcf. Roth. & Goole g.5.p.c S. Staffordsh WearValleygr 6 per cent Do Wilts &Somrsti 107 -109 54 - 56 150 - 152 33 - 34 Xll2 - 114 56 - 57 271 - 28. 14 - 14. 26 - 27 3 - 34 'l'64 - 108 65 - 67 151 - 153 151 - 153; i - i s 33 -- 34 1052 -- 1062 Leasing Compans, London & N. West. Gt.Westn, Do IL. &N.IV. Caledon Gt.Notrhn, Gt. Westn.' Yk. New. & Be rw Y.&N. Md Do Do S. Eastern ,Do Norfolk Do Lu.&N.W & Midld Stckton & Darlingt. Midland E. Count Do Do L. (SIN. W kln&Yk Do IGt.Northn Do Lancash.& Yorksh MrAlClean Stockt. & Darling Do Gt.Westn Closing Prices this day. Busines. this day. Do. IDo . THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNEsDAV ArtlstiNG, MAY 11 1868. sportation as it ha;d bten inflicted, contained more that was alakMitig to 99 men out of 100 than any other psusishment. One reason for this was that it contained, he might say, many different elements. But it was not merely the difficulty of obtaining employmenty which was obviated by the present ey'steril 0t enligration : a sudden return to unrreitealned liberty was also prevented. Experience had shown that a sudden change from strict control to unrestrained freedom was more than a man could bear. It was even so in the colonies, and thus it was that the system of sending out men with conditional pardons was changed. When the convicts had condi tional pardons it was found that they speedily relapsed into former idle and disorderly habits. The system of assignment was then adopted and persevered in until disapproved by the House of Commons. The system of granting tickets of leave was then adopted. Under this system the effect had been very gratifying. The papers upon their lordships' table would show that the convicts had in many instances set examples which might well be followed by free labourers. In the case of a convict who had committed a very serious offence, one who had barely escaped capital punishment, through the Secre tary of State commuting it to transportation for life, it might be quite safe to release him at the end of four or five years, if he were removed to a distant colony, and there placed under restrictions still tolerably severe, though a great improvement on his former condition, and though he must pay a considerable sum of money, and do a con siderable amount of work before he could obtain a con• ditional pardon. Such a man, who had committed a crime which was only distinguished by a nice shade from murder, might, under such conditions, be safely re leased, after four or five years, from Portland ; but what would be the e ff ec t if , after those four or five years of seclusion, he were a l lowed to go back to his old com rades, and say : " See wh a t I h ave d one ; I k noc k e d ou t the brains of th e k eeper of the prison, " or, " I have been a notorious housebreaker for ten years ; and, after four or five years, which I don't much care about (for that was always • the language they held), here I am back again. Don't be afraid of the sentence of the law ; that is the worst it can do. Join with me, and we will break open another house." (Hear, hear.) To allow men of this kind to return to their old haunts would destroy all reformatory discipline. No one who knew anything at all of the criminal law would believe that this would be safe. But what was the alternative ! To prolong the period of punishment. (Hear, hear.) But precisely as they prolonged that period, precisely as they made very distant the period when good conduct would procure a release—precisely in the same degree did they diminish the influence of that hope which was now the main in strument of Government in leading convicts to behave well in our prisons at home. If a man was told that, let him behave ever so well, he must continue in that gloomy retreat for ten or twelve years, it was greatly to be feared that the hope of accelerating the period of his discharge would lose its effect, and that he would net think it worth while to exert himself in the hope of knocking off one or two days at the end of that period, and that he might as well be guilty of some breach of discipline, and enjoy himself as he could while in pri son. To prolong the period of prison discipline would cut off the main source whence its excellence was de rived, and would render the hope now excited in the minds of the convicts comparatively null. He assumed that it would be argued, by those who opposed his motion, not that transportation was otherwise than useful in itself and beneficial, but that it must of necessity be given up—that it was impracticable to remove from this country the hundreds of convicts who were now looking forward to transportation. He denied the validity of that argument. If they were to abandon transportation, because Van Diemen's Land could not be called on longer to receive convicts, and there was no other place to which they could be sent, the Government ought to have taken the course which was adopted by their predecessors. As far as his information went, he was not aware of any sufficient reason for abandoning the practice of removing convicts to Van Diemen's Land ; but, for the sake bt ar gument, he would concede that it must be abandoned. Granting that this was so, what was the proper course I He found no fault with the dispatch written by the late Colonial Secretary, who said he thought that transpor tation to Van Diemen's Land ought to stop, but that Government could not fix the precise date of the change. (Hear.) The late Government proposed to submit cer tain changes in the law, which they thought necessary in order to effect this alteration in the practice, and at the same time to make certain arrangements by which they thought these alterations might be accomplished without injury. (Hear.) That was a perfectly legiti mate course, and had it been adhered to by the present Government, it would have been perfectly practicable, by arrangements which might have been made, and changes in the law which might have been proposed— not certainly without considerable expense—to put an end, at no distant period, to transportation to Van Diemen's Land, and at the same time to maintain that punishment to an extent sufficient to answer the most important purposes. (Hear, hear.) What similarity was there between the strong feeling which had led to the ejection of tea into Boston harbour, and the feeling which did nob prevent the scenes which took place at the arrival of the convict ships? Why, hi a recent paper there was a most graphic account of the tumult which such an event occasioned. Even the as sistance of the military had to be invoked to restrain the crowds of rich and poor who assembled, not to drive away the convicts from their shores, but to secure their services. (Hear, hear.) What a contrast between the persons who had indulged in this foolish• talk in the co lonies, and the great men of the American revolution— men not less distinguished for their moderation than their firmness—men whose moderation was such that, had there been the smallest infusion of political wisdom in the councils of this country, the calamitous struggle and the secession of those colonies would never have taken place. (Hear, hear.) With respect to the amendment which he understood the noble earl (Lord Chichester) intended to propose, he trusted that it would not be pressed. If he wished to tako the sense of the house upon it he hoped the noble earl would bring it on as a substantive motion, because it was entirely beside the question he (Lord Grey) wished to place before the house. The language of that amendment was utterly incomprehensible. It talked about sending convicts to colonies which were "incapable" of receiving them. Surely there must be a mistake, for it was not common sense. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl wished the govern ment to devise a system of secondary punishments which should be as much dreaded and as reformatory as trans portation. Why that was a problem which every civil ised nation had been attempting to solve for the last cen tury. Yet the noble earl demanded an immediate solu tion. Was that rational ! (Hear, hear.) Again, the noble earl distinctly recommended additional means of secondary punishment in this country, and admitted that new buildings would be necessary. Was it then reason able to put an end to transportation before these further arrangements had been provided I Surely this alone was sufficient to prove his (Earl Grey's) case. If, how ever, the noble earl did press his amendment, he (Lord Grey) trusted the house would deal with it as merely an indirect way of evading a question which the Govern ment did not feel prepared to meet. Was it right, three months after the ships had been chartered which should have taken convicts out, they should be discussing what to do with them ? Surely the course the Government had taken was an erroneous one ; but it was still not too late for Parliament to interfere, and he asked them, therefore, to agree to the resolution of the terms of which he had given notice, viz. :—" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give directions that the arrangements with resp ec t to criminals sentenced to transportation, which were in force in the year 1852, may not be changed in such a manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders from this country until a full account of any contem plated alteration in the above arrangem en ts shall have been laid before Parli amen t , an d t ill P a rliament shall have had an opportunity o f cons id er i ng the measures it may be intended to ad o pt prev i ously to their being car ried into execution." views hni eTd he r e eroEfdes appeal dill some of e o fo ohlejeeeAßEßDEENnsmttoyhobr,asleteGrheeoeaavrd(eLl,rl readily, said eGnioni it euuuyl supon w ould perhaps be convenient for him t o s t a t e t h us ear l y in ownnn oo t ot h uttw e lhdhi et d ehn e l ssp b otn a tab t nj e hde o t mnht enter tainingge the e f fi b r e st di p s i p x o e s e ed th t i o s pmreostsiohniswmasotoionne o o n f a th s c ery hou n s n e. nsn l a n l character. It was an intervention• of a description rarely exercised towards the legitimate use of the pre rogative of the crown, and of the executive government. (Hear.) The noble earl thought the Government had done something which required the sanction of Parlia ment to authorise. They bad done no such thing. (Hear, hear.) Had they been disposed to take any step requiring the sanction of Parliament they should most readily have requested the house to authorise or refuse their assent to such a proceeding. But they had done nothing of the kind. All they bad done wa s H a t g li r a e t e w d h w ic i l right or wrong, wise or unwise, it was perfectly com petent for them in the exercise of the discretion of the executive Government. (Hear, hear. the noble earl that this subject had always been treated as not belonging to any party considerations. (Cheers.) The subject was one which interested our social con dition so nearly, and was so important to the welfare and lreppiness of such vast numbers of our fellow-citi zens, that it had been very properly put aside from all considerations of party ; and he (Lord Aberdeen) had certainly no reason to imagine that the noble earl at all wished to give it that character. (Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that the noble earl and his colleagues had made great improvement in the treatment of convicts and in their discipline both at home and abroad. At the same time he must be permitted to ob serve that the difficulties under which they were labour ing at that moment had been mainly created, however unintentionally, by the noble earl himself. The practi cal question was, after all, notwithstanding all that the noble earl had said, could transportation be continued ? and he would show that the noble earl had made that impossible. And for this reason—when, in 1846, Mr. Gladstone was Secretary for the Colonies, he found the howeversystem m w t introddeviseduced by ( t f l o ce e o noble a s e earl o not l inclined had to find fault with that system) had led to such abuses, and that the country had arrived at such a state of horror and abomination that he (Mr. Gladstone) found himself un derrs the necessity Shortly a f o t f e r that suspendingthe eoi)lnra February, noble l tlreiy t o r ,en a al n rBa s l p 4s7 o ou, r he t wac a ne t rge i: do ) t n ee dot f fo o h r Gi isi l oii o .r. vyTWeehr'.enDmn'oeenbnlitseoetnao,rolkinopnlVactalleatntidhemen's Land, .tn this effect : " I have to inform you that it is not tire intention of her Majesty's Government that transportation to Van Die en's Land sha ll be resumed at the expiration of two Tears, for which it has been already decided that it shall be discontinued." Earl GREY—Read the former FLA. The Earl of ABERDEEN was quite ready to admit that the noble earl iltended something different from what he said. (Earl Grey. loudly, hear, hear.) Well, if the noble eirl would hear, he would state what he was about to say. Whatever interpretation the noble earl might put upon this letter now, Sir W. D en i son under stood it in its plain meaning, and he announced it to his legislative council, as an intimation that no more con victs were to be sept to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear, hear:) it had thus benotne a qUestioti dt gvcd faith, be cause the inhabitants had attached that meaning td the what n o declaration of their own gov ernor , f ounded upon the earl s ro p ir a d t:h e an o tf Aberdeen) w t the noble n tkh o n b ae l tw e earl. (Hear, transportation w ( e H I a t r h , a sthheoaurl.d not be ) the Now r b h e l e e_ sumed in the same manner as had been the practice before. But neither the governor to whom lie wrote, nor the colonists to whom Sir W. Denison explained it, understood it so, They undoubtedly received a fixed impression that the late Government intended to abo lish transportation to Van Diemen's Land. (Hear.) Well, but with that conviction on their part, it would be difficult to disabuse them of their belief, which had been confirmed to them over and over again by the de clarations, the emphatic declarations, of their legislative council. (Hear.) The noble, in one instance, had writ ten that the Government of this country had no right to send convicts to any colony against the consent of the inhabitants. Earl GREY—Not being originally a convict colony. The Earl of ABERDEEN—Very well ; but surely the noble earl ought to pay some respect to the legisla tures of these colonies. Was it only against the Church of England that the noble earl supported the declara tions of the Legislative Assemblies—was it only the Canadas that were to be supported in the wishes that they expressed, and was a colony to protest against a set of convicts being forced upon them, and were they not to be listened to or receive any attention from their lordships ? The noble earl ought to be consistent, and to give due weight to the voice of those assemblies which he had helped to constitute in these colonies. The noble earl had throughout treated the whole of this subject as if Government had taken a decision to abolish transportation. Now, they had not only done no such thing, but they were anxious to preserve transportation. Undoubtedly the field in which it could be exercised was diminished ; and, as he had already said, whether inadvertently or not, that difficulty had been mainly created by the noble earl himself. (Hear, hear.) But there were settlements that still remained, and he thought that by good management at home the number of convicts transported might be so diminished as possibly to find the means of accommodation in those restricted territories to which he had alluded. Western Australia was a colony to which they might continue to be sent ; but he quite agreed with the noble earl that the foundation of other penal settlements would not answer the purpose for which transportation was now intended and ought to be supported. A noble and learned lord said the other night they might be sent to Falkland and Greenland. He did not know what sort of discipline they could be subject to there. That showed how little people really felt what was the inten tion of transportation, because it was not such a system as could be found in the Falkland Islands that they wantedto egablish. That might be a ver y good prison, but N;that wan required was the absorption of the con vict into the population of the country to which he was sent. Hoeiever, he was not one of those who thought it impossible that some use might be made of Falkland Island for this purpose. At all events, it was a subject that deservedlnquiry. It was their opinion that tran sportation, 89 t4r as it could possibly be exercised, was a most valuable means, of secondary punishment, but whether it were valuable or not, and however anxious they might be to exercise it, and to carry it into effect, as extensively as the means they possessed would allow, still he did think tke time had come when it would be absolutely necessary to make large provision in this country for the treatment of our criminals, whether sentenced to transportation or not. For it was certain that however much they might wish to employ transpor tation, the exercise of it must necessarily diminish ; an d therefore they must endeavour to find some other mode of treating a vast proportion of those persons wh o were tenced to be thus punished. He thought they had had great success in this attempt ; that the institutions that had been established, the reformatory systems that had been introduced, joined with the labour on public works, had•been attended with the very best effects, and were said to have been greatly successful. He believed it was prof. at some change would have to be made in the very Mate mode of sentencing to transpor tation ivhic .a...4ken place for many years. Many hundreds had been sentenced to transportation for seven years, and what did thkt mean ? It meant two or three years in the hulks, r and then, having undergone no discipline but the whip, to be turned out on the country. That had gone on year after year without the great alarm which some noble lords professed now at the pos sibility of some criminals being discharged into the coun try after a system of discipline from which there was every reason to hope a moral reformation had taken place. But the great majority of those who were sen tenced to seven years' transportion were not persons who were guilty of any great amount of moral turpitude. No doubt there were varieties, and no doubt that was one of the causes of the inequalities of transportation. Upon the sensitive temperament of many persons, it was worse than death ; to the careless and reckless it was no punishment at all. (Hear.) Many of their lord ships would recollect the case of a member 'of the family of a noble lord, a member of that house, who was so determined to go to Botany that he declared if his family did not send him there he would take good care he was sent there. There was no doubt that transportation fell most unequally on the persons who were sentenced to it. The noble earl, though he spol - e:of the necessity of continuing transportation to Van Diemen's Lard, had very much confined his observations to the treat ment at home, and he had described, and justly, the effect produced by the discipline in those establishments to which he had referred. Nothing could be more true and just, and the necessity of extending that system became niore apparent every day. And without giving up transportation ? Quite the reverse ; retaining it espe cially for those cases which were of a serious descrip tion. He thought that for minor offences the system of reformatory imprisonment and labour on public works might be established for a great portion of those persons who were now sentenced to transportation. The noble earl had talked to alarm them by referring to the ex ample of France ; he said, indeed, that the persons dis charged there were the terror of the country. No doubt they were, but why ? Because they had not undergone that discipline and reformation which they were endeav ouring to give to criminals in this country. It was too soon yet to speak with certainty on the subject, but he thought that the experience of the few years which had passed since the institution of the establishments at Portland and Dartmoor augured favourably for their success. The noble lord had made light of the notion that transportation was no longer the same terror that it was formerly, and he said it was desirable that this feeling should operate in the minds of persons so sentenced. He (Lord Aberdeen) thought that these reckless minds were not incapable of being moved by vague notions of this descrip tion ; but whether that was so or not, one thing was certain, that in consequence of the extension of vo luntary emigration, the prospect of crossing the sea had no longer any terror in it. He thought it would be a great misfortune if criminals convicted of the most seri ous offences where not sent out of the country. Where the sentence was for a longer period, say 15 or 20 years, then, of course, it would be desirable to carry the sen tences into effect. The noble earl had said they would turn out from these establishments the worst persons in the country. Why, they should not only turn out the worst, but they should turn out the best, and if this system were good for anything, it was precisely that discrimination might be exercised, and that they should let out those persons who had shown, by their conduct, that they were deserving. Lord CAMPBELL.—Then you would have perpetual imprisonment in England ? The Earl of ABERDEEN said no, in serious cases he t hought transportation ought to be observed, but in tri ing cases it was a farce to sehtence them to transporta tion. A large portion of these persons would be re formed ; the experience they had had of the establish ment, although but short fully justified that expectation. The Earl of CHICESTER then rose to move the amendment of which he had given notice, "That whilst in the opinion of this house it is expedient to retain the punishment of transportation for some of the graver of fences against the law, it has become necessary to re strict such transportation to a few only of the colonies, and to places which, from their limited extent or popu lation, are at present incapable, without prejudice to their own social condition, of affording employment to any considerable number of discharged convicts. That it has therefore become the duty of Parliament to adopt immediate measures for providing ;increased means of secondary punishment in this country. That such se condary punishment ought to be, both in kind and dura tion, sufficiently penal to exercise as deterring an in fluence as the punishment of transportation, and at the same time of so reformatory a character as to afford a reasonable hope that the convicts who undergo it will, on their discharge, become useful members of society, and qualified to obtain employment either in this country or in the colonies." He said it was with considerable pain he was obliged to oppose the noble earl who had moved the address, as he had always regarded with great admiration the manner in which the noble earl had dis charged the office of chief secretary for the colonies, and because he must admit that, in conjunction with his right hon. friend Sir George Grey, more was done during his administration for the improvement of secondary punishments in this country than had been done by any previous administration. He objected to the motion, because it implied a continuance of transportation to a greater extent than he believed to be desirable, or, in the present circumstances of the colony, to be either politic or just. He concurred in much that was said by the noble earl, and he also agreed with the noble earl who had just sat down, that, for the graver offences, transportation ought to be continued. He agreed also in what had been said with regard to the necessity of the interference of Parliament in this question ' • he be lieved it to be quite necessary that there should be some alteration in the law, because transportation could not be carried out to the extent that the law allowed, and that was another reason why he could not concur in the motion of his noble friend. He believed that a variety of successful experiments proved that they had discovered a satisfactory system of secondary punishments equally applicable to convicts who were to be sent to the colo nies, or who were to be discharged in this country. The Earl of DERBY said the noble earl bad entered into a detail of the course Parliament had pursued for some years with regard to secondary punishment, and no one was better qualified to speak on the subject of transportation and secondary punishment than the noble earl. He must say, however, that in the greater part of his speech he had given the go-by to the question, as his amendment did to the resolution of the noble earl on the cross benches. He did not see why any one sup porting the resolution might not also vote for the amendment ; but he was anxious to state why he should support the resolution, without giving any opinion for or against the merits of the amendment. The noble earl at the head of the Government bad stated that up to the pfeatilt teentent this question of transportation had always been considered apart from party or political views. He thought the noble earl could hardly have meant to except the present discussion, for when he looked to the state of the house he would not see that there was any combination between the noble earl (Grey) and his (the opposition) side of the house. Much as he respected the great ability of the noble earl on the cross benches, they had had differences of opinion on many subjects, and their present views were so much at variance that he did not think his agreeing with the noble earl upon the present question would be any evi dence of party feeling or agreement, excepting that the noble earl had intimated that the course which was about to have been adopted by the Government with which he (Earl Derby) was connected was a more pru dent one than that which had been taken by the present Government. The noble earl at the head of the Govern ment had stated that it was by no means their intention to discontinue the present system of transportation, and that had relieved his mind, because certainly the lan guage of the noble duke at the head of the colonial de partment had had a somewhat different tendency. (Hear, hear.) The noble duke said that not only was transpor tation to Van Diemen's Land to be put a stop to, but that it was impossible not to see that the portion of our colonies that would consent to receive convicts was few in number and limited in extent, and that there was only one colony in Western Australia which was willing to take convicts, and that would only be available for a short time. The impression produced on his mind was that the Government bad come to the conclusion that transportation must soon cease to become a portion of our criminal system. (Hear, hear.) He was therefore glad to hear that the Government were not about to dis continue transportation : and he bad also heard with satisfaction that whilst they would limit it within nar rower bounds, the noble earl was of opinion that changes in the law were called for by which transportation should be confined, formally as well an really, to a more limited number of offences ; and that when persons were sen tenced to transportation it should he carried out. It was desirable that criminals should be well aware of the penalty awaiting their offences, and that the sentence to be pronounced should not be a mere brutem fano?. He believed that there were many offences to which the punishment of transportation was now applied for which it would not be convenient to continue it. The noble earl who had just sat down went farther in disparaging the advantages derived from the system of transportation in comparison with other modem of secondary punish ment, for he seemed to think that transportation was for those who were utterly irreclamable, and that the reformatory influence was only to be applied through a different system. He, however, was of opinion that there was more chance of amendment from transporta tion than from a reformatory system in this country, followed up, as it must be, by a recurrence to former habits and associates. And so far from wishing to re strict transportation solely to those with regard to whom but little hope was to be entertained, still less with re gard to the most aggravated cases, he thought there was a class of persons who, after a reformatory system in this country, might obtain signal benefit from transpor tation to the colonies, and who, might be an advantage to the community to whom they were sent. (Hear, hear.) Transportation, therefore, he thought, might be available as a valuable sequence to a reformatory pro cess. He thought, however, that the time had arrived when we must look to the abolition of transportation to Van Diemen's Land. The feeling which existed in that colony against receiving convicts migh t be partly produced by th e encouragemen t g i ven i n this country to the notion that a colony which received convicts was t'a degraded colony. He thought that to be a mistake—(hear)—but the idea was so strongly impressed on the people of Van Diemen's Land, that he did not say we had not the right or the power to send convicts there, but he thought it would not be good policy to con tinue to do so. (Hear.) They had given Van Diemen's Land an indepenient government of its own, and from that time they must take the legislative body to be the representatives of the people, and the organ for expound ing the feelings and wishes of the colonists. (Hear.) The Duke of NEWCASTLE said that the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) had expressed his intention of voting with the noble earl (Earl Grey) who had brought forward this motion, principally because of the approbation which he had expressed in reference to the course which the late Government intended to pursue. At the same time, the noble earl (the Earl of Derby) abstained from making any statement as to what those intentions were. He (the Duke of Newcastle) could assure the noble earl that however the noble lord who made the motion might approve of that course, he was only able to judge of it from what was contained in the speech from the throne, and in a dispatch of the right hon. gentleman (Sir J. Pakington) who preceded him in office. The noble earl (Earl Grey) had, in his speech, charged the Government with having violated the spirit if not the letter of vari ous act of Parliament. Now he (the Duke of Newcastle) utterly denied that the Government had done this. It had acted upon the power which the Crown had invari ably exercised, upon the advice of ministers, to decide to which colonies transportation should proceed, and where and in what degree it should be stopped. There was no act of Parliament stating to what colonies trans portation should take place. The matter had always been regulated by orders in council, and the noble earl must know that on more than one occasion an order in council had been made, repealed, restored, and repealed again merely upon the advice of Ministers. Again, what had been the practice of late years with regard to transportation Latterly, until within a short time, prisoners transported for seven years had never been transported at all, but merely sent to the hulks. More than that, Ministers had not only taken upon them selves never to carry the sentence of transportation into effect, but, even since the late alterations, prisoners sen tenced to seven years' transportation were detained for two years and a half in solitary confinement and upon public works before being sent out of the country. What was the effect of these alterations by the Govern ment of which the noble earl was a member ? Under it a man sentenced to transportation for seven years was virtually transported for life. The noble earl (Earl Grey) looked amazed at this, but it was the case, for under these regulations a man was transported and left without the means of returning. The early part of the speech of the noble earl (Earl Grey) was devoted to the praise of transportation in the abstract, but at the close of his observations he adverted to a speech made by him upon a former occasion, and expressed an opinion, which it was only due to the colonists of Van Diemen's Land that he (the Duke of Newcastle) should advert to in that house. The noble earl went so far as to speak of this anti- convict movement as a sham. He (the Duke of Newcastle) held in his hand a list of petitions from Van Diemen's Land, which either had been, or were about to be presented to the other house, praying that the system of transportation might be altered. The petitions were not got up by professed agitators, but were the sincere views and opinions of the people. There were 42 of them, and among them 19 were from congre gations of the Established Church, 8 from Presbyterian congregations, 7 from the Baptists, 1 from the free church, 1 from the Dissenters, 1 from the Roman Catholics, and 1 from the Jews. This did not look as though the matter were a sham. Even upon pecuniary ground; the petitioners were dissatisfied with the pre sent state of things. But were not the colonists the best judges of their own intests ! When the noble lord at the head of the Government stated that the noble earl (Earl Grey) was the last man who should oppose the wishes of the colonies, the noble earl had made a gesture of dissent ; but he (the Duke of Newcastle) could quote from the interesting book which the noble earl had lately published two pages in which he laid down the constitutional maxim, that the colonies were the best judges of their own internal affairs. Whilst upon the subjeet he might refer to a dispatch of the noble earl opposite (Earl of Derby)s written in the year 1842, upon the subject of the grant of a constitution to Van Diemen's Land. In that dispatch the noble earl stated that to grant a representative system would be to put an end to the maintenance of our present system of trans portation to the colony. He (the Duke of Newcastle) believed that to be a statesmanlike view of the case, and fully concurred in thinking that a representative system and a system of transportation were incompatible. As to the real practical effect of the gold diggings upon the transport, the return for the first nine months of the year 1852 showed that no less than 1,413 ticket-of-leave men had absconded from their employments during that period to go to the gold fields ; of these only 733 were apprehended and brought back. In a dispatch, dated about the month of February last, he had explained the views of the home Government to the Governor of Van Diemen's Land, and informed him of the intention of her Majesty's Government to put a stop to the then system of transportation. He (the Duke of Newcastle) had seen nothing to induce him to change his opinion since the writing of that dispatch ; on the contrary, he was sure that to ease the colony from its then excited state was a thing of primary importance. With respect to the committee presided over by the noble and learned lord near him (Lord Brougham), he could not find in the report of that committee that absolute approval of transportation to which the noble earl (Earl Grey) had referred. The committee seemed rather to have come to the conclusion that in certain cases the punishment of actual banishment might be very efficacious. And on looking to the evidence the same idea was bo rne out. Thus, the Hon. Mr. Law, the late Recorder of London, confined his testimony to those persons who had been guilty of obtaining money under false pretences. Devonport Hill, the Recorder of Birmingham, and the Rev. J. Clay, the chaplain of Preston Gaol, other witnesses before the committee, stated that transportation was much dreaded by the old women and men, but not by the young. The chaplains of Reading and Bath Gaols expressed tb r opinion that transportation was not generally dreaded ei by crimi nals. These officers were much better judges of the effect of transportation than even 1118 noble friend the Lord Chief Justice. It was in fact mainly applicable to that class of criminals who wore designated in the evi dence by the rather strange and anomalous title of " re spectable criminals. (Laughter.) Six years had passed since this inquiry was made, and great changes had taken place. Whatever might have beentheterrbors y th of transportation, they were now greatly mitigated altered circumstances of the times. When the e com mittee sat, emigration was l oo k ed upon with a kindof dread by the inhabitants of country parishes ; and those who did emigrate n ever t h ought of going fu r th er than Canada. In those parishes where the population was most redundant, it had required all the exertions and all the persuasion of th eta dlords an d the clergy to it • duce the labourers to migrate. ow, the great diffi culty was in retaining the popu la tion ; and so far from emigration being a terror, l abouring population looked upon it as an a dvanta..e l , e h and it was one to which they aspired. The commi ttee ' ad come to the conclu sion that imprisonment in this e country was not sufficient as a secondary punishment ; but since their report was made, prison discipline had been would be still more so. There)legrtrearetly improvdeedd, that new methods sho u ld b e found of dealing eerem wi e t n h juvenile offenders, also that the education of the poorer classes should be improved. Both those objects had been at• tended to ; and he hoped the efforts that had been made would go on increasing. The noble earl (Grey) had stated, on a former occasion, that 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 would be let loose on this country before the end of the present year. But supposing the transportation to the Australian colonies abandoned altogether, the whole number would not amount to more than 2,000 for the year. Earl GREY—Do you incluck those sent to the Aus tralian colonies from Gibraltar and Bermuda, or only those seat from Great Britain and Ireland I The Duke of NEWCASTLE said his statement only included those sent from Great Britain. and Ireland. The average number sent out for the last five years to Australia from Great Britain and Ireland was 1,945 ; if those sent from Bermuda and Gibraltar were included, the average was only 100 from each place. The annual number of vacancies was 400 in Bermuda, and 200 in Gibraltar. Assuming that Western Australia would continue to take about 1,000 convicts, annually, that the number sentenced to transportation would be reduced by the substitution of imprisonment for certain offences, and that about one-half of those now transported would be released within this country in consequence of the change of the law, what would be the proportion to that of the; criminal class now percolating amongst us under the present, system ? Au abstract of au official return made by that independent and valuable public servarA Major Jebb, showed that the total number of persons tried in 1851 was 27,949, of whom 2,981 was sentenced to transportation, leaving, 25,058 who were otherwise disposed of. Of the number sentenced to transportation at least one-third were never sent out of the country ; so that not more than 2,000 were sent abroad in 1851, all the remainder receiving punishment in this country, and being released at the expiration of their sentences. Another return showed that of 2,818 prisontrs tried, 174 were sentenced to transportation, of whom only 120 were actually transported. , There could be very little danger from this small increase to the number of criminals relieved in this country. At this moment the pro portion of convicts to the population in Van Diemen's Land was about one in three. In this country, supposing the numbers released to be augmented by a portion of those formerly transported, and making the greatest allowance for this number, still the proportionwould only be about one in 30,000 of the population. Rear, hear.) Th oug h we had derived th e greatest possible advantage from the system of transportation, especially of late years, we were arriving at a period when, by great alterations in our system of prison discipline, and by the prevalence of more enlightened views, we were likely to be in a posi tion before long to dispense with safety with. the punish ment of transportation. It was most important to give the convicts useful and remunerative employment; and it was desirable that out of their earnings a certain amount should be laid by to provide for them when they came out of prison, and to enable them to get into some honest way of living, instead of being sent out houseless and destitute, and with no alternative but to turn to their former course of life. They might be empl o y e d, as was recommended by Major Jebb, in harbours of refuge, dockyards, and other public works. At present about 1,000 convicts were employed in Chatham dockyard, beneficially as regarded themselves, and advantageously as regarded the public. If they persevered in that course, he hoped they should soon be in a condition to discuss calmly and deliberately whether the system of transportation might not with advantage be wholly abandoned. The altered circumstances of the times de manded a change in the system. The adoption of forced labour for convicts had been felt to be a hardship by labourers generally, there being then a redundancy of labour. This was no longer the case, for able-bodied men, in every part of the country, readily found employ ment. (Hear, hear.) It should be remembered that other countries had no system of transportation ; neither the United States nor France pursued such a system ; and though the travaux forces had failed in Franee, it was no argument why a similar system should not succeed here. He had that morning perused an account of an improved system of prison discipline adopted at Munich, the effects of which were such as might make even Major Jebb himself envious. The Government had done nothing in this matter at variance with either the spirit or the letter of any act of Parliament. He had shown the ne cessity of giving up the system of transportation to Van Diemen's Land, and had shown the means of doing this, by improving our system of secondary punish ments at home. The transportation to Western Austra lia would be continued ; and he fully anticipated from it benefit, both to the colony and the mother country. (Hear, hear.) In taking this step the Government had not been influenced by any agitation in the, colonies, but had only listened to those claims which he thought to be just. The noble earl (Grey) had pointed out the distinc tion between a wise statesman and a shallow politician. He would remind the noble earl that it was also the duty of statesmen, of those who undertook the responsible duties of ministers of this great country,. to watch the progress of events—to concede where concession was necessary, and to concede in time ; not to wait until de mands became too clamorous to be resisted, but to con cede before it was too late. Such a concession ought to be made with a good grace, when it might be accepted as a boon, and might engender,feelings of harmony and concord between the mother country and the colonies, instead of being delayed till too late, when it would be regarded only in the colonies as a sign of weakness, and would expose ministers to the very charge which the noble earl deprecated. (Hear, hear.) The Government hoped to be able to carry out such measures as would meet the wishes of the colonists, and would 'promote the interests of this great country, without doing altythin g to destroy that security for life and property here which it was most essential to maintain. (Hear, hear.) Lord CAMPBELL asked whether the mover of the ' amendment meant it to be added to the i csolution, or to be a substitute for it. If the former, it quite concurred with the motion ; they were perfectly harmonious. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had put it as an amendment ; to leave out all the words 'of the original resolution after the word "that." The Earl of CHICHESTER stated that he had so proposed it. .Lord CAMPBELL said in that case, he should advise their lordships to adopt the address and reject the amend ment. (Hear, hear.) As a judge of the land, and having a scat in their lordships' house, he thought it his duty to take that course. After some further discussion their lordships divided, when there appeared— For the motion Against it.. 37 54 Majority l7 The amendment was then agreed to. Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to ore o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY. INSPECTION OF NUNNERIES. Mr. T. CHAMBERS rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to facilitate the recovery of per sonal liberty in certain cases, and having claimed the indulgence of the house while he delivered a maiden speech, he proceeded to state that, in making this motion, he had no desire to wound the religious. feelings of any one. Still it would be his duty to tonal upon theological topics, because there was a class'' of persons in the state who were subject to undue restraint and hardship, and it was in respect of this class that he wished now to legislate. There were institutions existing in this country which were beyond the reach of all the enactments to be found on the statute book, and, which were used for the purpose of keeping females in restraint. His bill, in fact, would point at monastic institutions ; and, as the Legislature had more than once passed enactments in that spirit, there could be nothing novel or strange in this motion. The law as it now stood, however, was a dead letter, and he wished to bring in a bill to render it more stringent. It was too much the practice to describe nunneries and mo nastic institutions as places of calm retreat, where females could retire to who were anxious to quit the pomps and vanities of the world, but it frequently happened that so far from being places of this character, they were little better than prisons where females were detained against their will, upon the lame pretence that such detention was for their spiritual welfare. In the majority of instances, no doubt, these institutions were places of peaceful and comfortable retreat for persons who wished to lead A, se cluded life, but the public mind believed that 'ninny of these convents were full of those who were dis contented. Most of these convents were built like prisons with bolts and bars, and porters at the doors watching all day and night. All these architecturalfeatures resembled those of an ordinary prison.ink Tusiony, had high walls, and other guards against But besides cells andopp sopposed to dungeons, such establishments. edirected the public _against mind Was strongly Monastic his bill was not intende d to b R oman Catholic cAonngvio Catholicen-ts. It would embrace alik e A ga pentonies andnunneries. vows were not recognised by the constitutional law of the land ; but setting that argument aside, he would come to something that told much stronger in favour of his motion. It could hardly be said that there were no discontented nuns in the country, or why should there be so much rhetori c wasted in rex hortingifthere was not a class already eifnd keepiiisuenenneterinetsedtonnnsin h tthiesireovuonAt' who sighed for liberty, how came it thatthe Roman Catho eunincr p li e e rs c clergy y w i w w e r w e econtinually to oab admonishing o th or deno uncing vows. The fact that such a c l ass ex i sted was a strongrdn argument in favour of this bill, but there was another argument which he must adduce in support of his motion. (Hear, hear.) Almost reoN-eidryd other co un t ry i n Europe but England provided a remedy fo r th e case which thi s bill contemplated. e Pi stance, no novi ce cou ld take the veil In P withou ru t s t s h i e a, c f o o n r se i n n ; of the civil authorities ; while its Russia no nu n cou ld enter a conv en t w i t h out the permission of the Synod of Moscow. In Bavaria vows could not be taken for a longer period than three years, while the State reserved to itself the right of visiting these monastic institutions, and setting those persons at liberty who were anxious to return to the world. The same practice prevailed in - France • and though he did not wish to follow the example of foreign countries, he thought these proofs were conclusive against all these monastic institutions being simply places of peaceful retreat. No doubt ho should be met with the objection that the bill was opposed to .religious liberty, but it was no such thing. All that it could do would be to se cure civil liberty to parties who wished it. The Roman Catholic Relief Act entirely prohibited the exist ence of monastic institutions for males, but a reservation was made in favour of some half-dozen estab s i e i d sh a in ncr which were in existence at the time the act was ,i I „r s to the Roman Almanac,("corfor 1853, it appeared were confined to females. 75 nunneries in England t•hat Catholic there D i i v r e e r c e t Directory and th n a es n s c Catholic Church, while of those tholic Church he believed there were not less than too ttlhiee a hundred, containing something like batetlrnhgeindgt. R .A ° n rn g l lo • a IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the woolsack at fire o'clock. COUNTY COURTS. On the motion of Lord BROUGHAM, certain returns were ordered connected with the expenses of proceedings in County Courts. TRANSPORTATION. Earl GREY then rose to move, that an humble ad dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give directions that the arrangements with respect to the punishment of cri minals sentenced to transportation, which were in force in the year 1852, may not be changed in such a manner as to prevent the ultimate removal of such offenders from this country until a full account of any contemplated al teration in the above arrangements shall have been laid before Parliament, and the Parliament have had an op portunity of considering the measures it may be in tended to adopt previously to their being carried into execution. He said he did not bring forward the motion in any spirit of hostility to the Government. The ques tion of secondary punishment never had, and he trusted never would be considered with any reference to party politics. It was not his object by this motion to enable their lordships to pronounce a judgment on the question of transportation, or to call upon them to say that it should or should not be continued, but to ask that an address be presented to her Majesty, re questing her to command that no vital change should be made in that system of punishment which had existed for two centuries in this country until their lordships and the other house of Parliament had been made acquainted with the measures proposed to be adopted, and had an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion upon them. The noble earl entered into a history of the policy of pre ceding Governments on the subject of transportation, and expressing his surprise at the course taken by the present Government, said it was inconsistent with the spirit of the law that while transportation remained on the statute-book as the principal punishment, it was in point of fact and in point of law to be repealed. " Hear, hear," from Lord Campbell.) He begged to call atten tion to what had taken place within a few years, and which he thought had a material bearing on the subject, and made it more disrespectful to Parliament to take the course which the Government had adopted than it other wise might have been. Some years ago a measure was adopted by the Government by which transportation to New South Wales was at once put an end to by an order in council. He knew the difficulty to which the noble earl opposite was exposed by that measure. (Hear, hear.) It was intended that the number of convicts not transported should be continually increased ; but an ad dress was moved in the Houle of Commons praying that her Majesty would not allow-the number of convicts not transported to be so increased, and that was carried against the Government of Lord Melbourne. The house of Commons, therefore, declared x that it was inexpedient to discontinue sending convicts%abroad ; and they had never since expressed any other opinion, although during the Government of Lord John Rifssell various attempts had been made to obtain a contrary opinion from the House of Commons on the subject. ,No decision revers ing that of 1840 was ever adopted, by the House of Commons. Therefore, so far as the other house was concerned, it remained on record as the opinion of that house, that the ultimate removal of convicts sentenced to transportation from this country might not to be discontinued. How was it with ,vegard to this house ? In the year 1846 it became necessary that a great change should be made in the arrangements for carrying into effect the sentence of transportation, and, after much consideration, the Government of which he (Earl Grey) was a member decided upon cer tain measures which were proposed for the purpose ' of improving the mode of effecting this punishment. As soon as these measures had been decided upon, papers containing a full explanation of the views of her Majesty's then Government were laid before Parliament, for its consideration. Now, although these measures did not imply any discontinuance of the ultimate re moval of convicts from this country—on the contrary, it was an essential part of the plan that convicts sen tenced to transportation should, as heretofore, be re moved to a distance before their discharge—yet very considerable alarm was excited in this and the other house of Parliament when they were announced. A noble and learned friend (Lord Brougham) moved a committee of their lordships's house, and the then Go vernment assented to its appointment. That committee investigated the subject, examined all the judges of Eng land except one then recently appointed, and almost all the judges of Scotland and Ireland. [Lord Brougham —All the criminal law judges.] They examined the magistrates and governors of prisons —all persons who had the greatest practical experience of the working of the law. After that examination the committee reported. and stated "that nearly all those whom they had exa mined, had agreed that the punishment of transportation could not safely be abandoned, and that it had terrors which no other punishment—death only excepted —pos sessed." That committee reported further, " That the evidence, both from France and elsewhere abroad, of the fatal effects produced by the liberation of crimi nals at the end of their terms of imprisonment, would seem strongly to show the necessity for con tinuing the present mode of transportation." They went on to state, as the result of all their inquiries, —and ho (Earl Grey) might say here that the committee was very numerously attended—" that their opinion was, that the punishment of transportation should be retained for serious offences; that such punish ment should be carried into effect in some instances im mediately, in others, at later periods ; that the first stages of punishment, whether in this country or in the colonies, should be of a reformatory as well as of a pe nal character ; and that the later stages should, in all instances, be carried into effect in the colonies, the con vict being for that purpose retained in the qualified re straint to which, under the then existent system of trans portation, men holding tickets of leave or conditional pardons were subject." Such was the opinion of the committee. No vote was come to upon the subject in the house, and for this reason, that it was understood that her Majesty's Government should carry into effect the views of that committee. The Government did so act ; 'at the same time, much valuable information was derived from the colony, and upon that, and the facts collected by the committee, after very careful considera tion, a scheme for the future management of convicts was matured. .A. full account of that scheme was em bodied in various dispatches, which, almost as soon as written, were laid upon the tables of both houses of Parliament. It was only two years ago, in moving the second reading of the Convicts' Prisons Bill, he (Earl Grey) had occasion to explain to their lordships the prin ciple and objects of the measures then decided upon. He would, therefore, not weary the house by going over what he had so lately fully entered upon, but would content himself with reminding their lordships that this plan was, with one modification, precisely the same as that determined upon in the year 1846. The principle of the plan was that the more severe portion of this punishment consequent upon the !sentence of trans portation should be inflicted upon criminals in the country, that they should be subjected to different kinds of imprisonment under the best schemes that could be devised, and that, after having under gone punishment of this kind, they should be removed to the colonies, being still placed in a state of modified subjection for some time. It was at first intended that they should have conditional pardons, the effect of which was that they would be free upon arriving at the colony, except that they were restrained from returning to this country, It was afterwards determined that they should be sent out with tickets of leave only, by which means they were still kept under a certain degree of control. That measure he (Earl Grey) would take upon himself to say had since been in very successful operation. It had answered both as a deterring and as a reformatory punishment. Now, he would submit to their lordships that, considering the circumstances under which that scheme of punishment was adopted, considering that it was in successful operation, they ought not to have abandoned lightly and without a substitute, an essential f p r a o r m t of the essential sse ultimate otinl p removalpart tof the of pl a convicts i as a deterring, and still more as a reformatory punish ment.countryvas He said that an involuntary exile was a deter ring part of the plan upon the authority of the evidence given before the committee. He knew he might be told, as the house was told not long since, that this had been entirely changed by the recent discovery of gold in Aus tralia ; but he must confess that he heard that argument with complete astonishment. In the first place, he de nied the fact that the recent discoveries of gold had in any way impaired the efficacy of transportation. He would refer to his noble and learned friend behind him (Lord Campbell), who had stated that upon recent circuits he had found the punishment of transportation as much dreaded as ever. Since he (Earl Grey) had given notice of this motion, it had been communicated to him by the chaplain of one of the prisons, that there was no part of the sentence of transportation so much dreaded as the ultimate exile ; that he found convicts, imprisoned after sentence, al ways desirous of having this part of their sentence com muted ; and that even within the last few weeks he had had three instances of that kind. And upon considera tion their lordships would see that the discovery of gold could not affect the question. Under the regulations lately in force a convict sentenced to transportation must have waited a period of from 5 to 10 or 12 years, or even longer, before he could expect to be at liberty to go to the diggings. Even a seven years' convict, though his conduct might have been exemplary from the day of his conviction, must have waited 3& years before he could go to the gold fields. Of that 31 years, one must have been spent in the gloomy seclusion of Pentonville, another in the severe toil and labour of Portland. Now, remembering what convicts were, could they be supposed to act upon any principle of de liberate reason ? Did a man pick a pocket because, after due consideration, he had come to the decision that he ought to do so ? Crimes were generally com mitted because those who committed them did not reason, and, not reasoning, did not possess sufficient strength of mind to resist temptation. Were these the men, then, to commit crime for the sake of being trans ported, in order that, at the end of 10, or 12, or 15 years, after undergoing a punishment of awful severity, they might be at liberty to take their chance with other scramblers for gold at the diggings ? The notion was so utterly irrational that he (Earl Grey) was convinced that no noble lord would attempt to assert it. He did not deny that there might be men who had given as a reason for their crimes that they wanted to go to the digging. He knew that in 1830 he had had letters from criminals stating that they had committed crimes for the purpose of being transported. There were not wanting in the records of our criminal courts cases of persons who had incurred the penalty, even of death, from a morb:d desire to undergo punishment. But taking mankind as a body, he believed that trail- 1071 7 red oral l3it°, in °°'l b i 11° ,,, Per ~ RG I. 1$ ... / 1 1 . .•••• • is .13i ••'' . :S 5 ...". '35 19 11 •••• 1 9 .J lo St. st. St. St. 26i 13i 20 50 20 10 10 19 20 5 2 10 25 16 10 Paid' all 100 all 1100 11 1100 100 18ti 9i all 152 1 3i 3