The Sun. — London, England, 1804-06-19 00:00:00

( ) viON ,/ i ..; veer ....... , P , '7, p r ~,, ~ 8A \ 61.. $ 1 .. !.1 .,„..... ,2 „......v........." ..eL?::,%A . , - 4 , ,,....C. , ) , , •ttt - .." N - I ~or - I • ls , , • ' 7) .• 4.: 4 - *,4 fir c • tr;.-•:•: 1. 4. z -••••••..••••••••••• INIPERLdL PARLIAMENT. 110E'SE OF PEEKS. 1110NDAY, JUNE IS. 'nit Bills upon the Table were forwarded in their respee. rive stages. The Committee upon the Aylesbury Eledion Bill was Postptined till to-morrow. An Other from the Treasury presented certain Accounts, relative to the state of the Public Debt, directed to be an nually laid before Parliament. The Order of the Day for delivering Judgmerrt reseeding Cer tain Appeal C auses b e i ng read, that of Hug v. Lashley, was postponed till Thursday. In the Case, the Duke of - Queensberry v. NV:Outdo, a Pe. anion was presented, praying that their Lordships would alteritnd shape the l o d gment of the Court of Session, as set. tied and agreed upon by the Parties. °t ~This being a ctor di ng to the spirit of a former proceeding their Lord s hi ps upon the Case , the Loa D CHANCELLOR delivered his sentiments thereon, which meeting the eons.; of the House, the prayer of the Petition vvns granted, and an Order made accordingly. Upon the Appeal, Grieve v. Cunningham, the LOAD CU: CILLO lt delivered his opinion upon the merits of the lo!.:a eat considenble length, and concluded by moving an ad curiteentbott- its farther consideration till to-morrow, when the n re _ cons ' a proposition for remitting the Case for ir F : 6urt of es. he rocee .)ourned. ordered C ; afr o S sion tie Hou p se Aud . I fOUSE OF COMMONS. 14oNDAy, - JUNE 18. e Lord MAasstAst, Chairman of the Middlesex Eke - Hi:in 1; °Ttm.l .., T te e, Pnx. eared an humble Petition on behalf of Wil iiarn I itita„ wno had been doenrnitted to the Custody of the serjearult •Arril; for misconduct, setting forth his contrition for this (Mince, the inconvenience to his Family from his Imprisonment,• ere. . which being read and laid on the Table, ?I tile.No l l _e Laid moved, that the Petitioner be brought to the and " 44 ch;itgetl; which be was aceor . clingly, after rectiv fi frorn _the SPSA*SR a suitable Repnmand, and on Pay_ tile_kt ofhis Fees. The 11111 for Susp ending Penal Aclions, Ex. against Wool n Manufatturers was read a second time, and ordered to C°Zenn„Ltled.„___,tpt Committee of the whole House to-mor stirw,,, on* fug manonaf Mt. R. LasCgLtc,. 31 1; f Amis Et T 2, 44R 41,D said. that on account of the late. ness the ,-.,,,g..-itin, , h'll'as advisable to deter until the next, ti the consideration of the Irish Eke:e on Bill; with a view to *lt pur e on he moved, this nay th ree months.— Ordered that th - is bill be read a second time Mr. STvacots BOURNS brought in a Bill to permit 4r. iloulton to export in the rl Mae/finery necessary for ereEting a ltlint ( "ntillitut of the King of Derunark (at Copenhagen).— Read a firsti and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. The Irish Revenue Bill was deferred to Thursday, on the Motion ofMr: 10 575 R. . lt XI A CCM) S was laid on the Table, of the Four and a Half Xr colt West India Duties, Acc. The bast India Prize Bill in the Port of Liverpool, passed a Committee of the whole House ; and the- Report was or dered to by received to-morrow. Mr. • Altierinan Comas presented a P etition against the Bill, on bels.!l lof certain Merchants'ol London, stating that it b l aguld be injurious to the L on d on Trade, d:c. and praying to Rnsee heard by Counsel ; whi c h , after a few words from I .dr. viaS a few in answer firm Mr. Alckrtn an 'C oNtsz, ordered and dered t and the Petition was laid on the Table. Mr. Szuaces BOURNS gave notice, that to-morrow he s hould move f or l eave to bring in a Lill to prevent the Coun terfeiting of Dollar's. DEFENCE BILL. that p than of t hi s ne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, revious ill to the -Hou se enterin , i t would be better; as he co..c g on the discus. B 'i - eil, he should open the su bstance of Clauses w hi c h he w three or f our tense should assent t as o abou t to propose, that the H them for t h e present at , least, and the D e b ate should take ace on the . tioo " Th at t h e Bill with the Amplendments be q ues en grossed." The first of these Clauses was framed upon a suggestion made b ` l former ni y an H on . G entleman on ght. It was for making Provision fur Vacancies which may arise in the Force to be creat ed under this Bill by Death, Casualty, or Desertion instead of filling them from the parishes, it shoul he ma d e general, and the quota should be supplied Plied horn the Cuunties of England at large.—Annthe Clause was f ounded on a suggesti on of - a n Hon. r Gentleman below him ; the objed of it was to ap. Point a place of rendezvous, where proper Officers were to have power of removing or objecting to any person under the AEI, &c. ?rovjsion of t h e Families of tAho nother related to t h e IJl)tie r t hi s Bi ll; se who s h ou ld serve This was a subjed not without its difficulty. All persons who enlisted into the Army of Reserve had Provisions made. fur their ..Farisilies, -in like manner as those who were bal. but wh en they entered lotted i n t h e Militia ; af terwards into the Line they had that advantage no longer, a circumstance w discourawhich operated to the g ement of the Recruiting the Rear Army. It was t h erefore thought advisablegul to do Way this prov i sion in the present mea awe, all those taki ng care, however, to keep goo d f a i t h with who had already entered into the - A!_lny of Resertre. A not h er he apprehends poin t was w h o l ly new, and , d th e H ouse wou l d consider it im p to ortant : the F orce tO be r a i se d under this Bill was be a Permanent Force ; it was to be so to all intents and purposes in time of War, but by the Clause he was now about to state, it was not to be 1 embodied in time of Peace: in the one case it was, 1 , 0 the other it was not necessary to be embodied. 4 1) 5 time of War it was therefore to be embodied; t ut • in time of Peace it was to be only liable to be :3 411 ed out and exercised for a month or five weeks, i'sthe Militia are. The provisions of Martial Law, :4PPlicable tb this Force, should operate only dur i.r.:g the tim e they were embodied, and they were, Vte'',ce the Nlilitia, to be disembodied in six months r the Ratification of the Treaty of Peace. The r °re e3 ther e f ore, Was not to be kept embodied in 1 2441 ! 11 , 1 ,e uf P eace , b ut only, like th e Mili t i a, it was (rarn, eto be ca ll e d out. For the se, objeCi s h e h a d ed thi s Cl ause, He was not aware there were 4 , r'Y other Amendments, except s uc h as Were of a tvetbal. na ture, except , one short one , which was, s: P r vide, t h at whoever has served, or may be erstyng, i n the Militia, Volunteer; or any other .' t ice, shall be exempt from his portion of the t)3risil l evy, &C.—He then moved the'Ordet Of the 1.1 r .. , 4 y 10r ti second 'eßeading of the Amendments in !lie English Additional Defence - Th e Amendments were then read a second time. thi C lauses , el t it's opeoed by Mr.Pt TT, were brought ') by 1 ' • 11 41, and received as he recommended, Mr. GREY wished to know whether the Officers to be raised under this Force were to he appointed by the Crown, like all other Military Officers, and whether they were to be paid while the Force wos disembodied ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he thought this matter had been explained already, as to the appointment of Officers ; for they were to be appointed like other Officers under the Crown.— His idea always had been as at present. This Force was kept only as an additional Force, liable to be called out in time of Peace, when any alarm should render it necessary, in the same manner as the Mi litia. Officers were to be entitled to their half-pay only when disembodied ; but they would, neverthe. less, be in the way of promotion, as if belonging to the bat talion,of service. During the last month or five weeks they were embodied, they would be on full pay. Mr. PITT then moved, That this Bill, with the Amendments, be ingrossed. Mr. HARRISON said, he was ready to confess that the Bill was now less exceptionable than before; but it still retained so much of its native dafeds that he could nut agree to it. The leading feature of this Bill was to raise money, and that in a vex atinui manner, by fines and penalties on parishes and local districts, instead of the fair way of general taxation. He did not want to see this great in crease of the established Force of the Country in time of Peace, and it struck him that this was to create a sort of standing Army. There were many points of objeCtion which he should not enumerate, as they had been touched upon already, and others which would occur to the House in the course of discussion. He was clearly against the Bill. He was about to propose an Amendment, when The SPEAKER observed, that this was a ques. tion which did not admit of an Amendment. Mr. W. ELLIOT observed, that the Bill now before them had been so amply discussed, that he need not detain the House long in delivering hia sentiments upon it; he could not, however, forbear making a few- observations by way of explanation of the motives by which he had been, and would be guided in the discussion of this subjed. This Bill was not introduced as a temporary expedient, but it was to lay the foundation of a permanent system. The object, if he understood it, was this, to supply the present deficiency of our existing Military Force, and to render it a future source of Recruiting the Re. gular Army, so as to enable us to employ a greater proportion of disposable Force for offensive opera. tions ; also to extinguish the pernicious system of large bounties. Much had been said on the effed of local Recruiting, and the advantages of the exertions of Gentlemen in the Dis:tiCts in which they lived. He admitted there was a good deal of force in those observations, as they applied to parts of Scotland or Ireland, but they did not come under this Bill, for it was confined to England. It had been said, that Parish Officers would exert themselves, as well as Military Gentlemen, in raising men ; but there was a marked distindion between the situations of these two classes : the one had rank and emo. lument for raising men. Here was nothing to be obtained, at the best, but e.aemption from the pay ment of a fine. There should be better stimulus, or this would sink into a mere Tax. These men, who were to Recruit for the Parishes, had not the requisites for -that business, for Recruiting was a science. The operation of this measure would be greatly to defeat the end of general Recruiting for the Regular Service; for the moment a Recruiting Officer shall come into a Parish, the whole of it will be in arms against him, because they will re. gard him as a person come to take away the men they want : this was not all ; the bounty for the Line was now to be sixteen guineas for general ser vice: the bounty under this Bill was to be twelve guineas, and from thence into the Line ten guineas; that made twenty-two guineas, six guineas above the bounty for the Line, which was a competition extremely injurious to the Recruiting for that service. "The power which the Parish Officers would have under this Bill, might operate most oppressively on those who are perhaps, in many instances, too much under their gripe already. There were many Laws that had lain dormant, which this Bill would tend to revive, and which humanity toad long since induced us to relax. A man, for vagrancy, or other cause, might be sent to Bridewell for two months, and discharged at the end of one, on condition of en listing, at the instance of the Parish Officers. Many of the penalties of the Game Laws might be re ' vived by this Bill. An unqualified man forfeited 51. for killing a hare ; if he cannot pay the fine, which was the case of the multitude, his goods may be dis. trained, but the fine might be remitted, provided the delinquent would enlist. The same might be said when a distress took place for taxes ; by these means men might be forced into the Service, which was oppression. —It was incumbent on the Legislature to take care that the Laws they cnaded might nut sti tnulate abuse in their execution. This Bill would produce a mischievous adivity in Parish Officers to interfere with the comforts of almost all the lower orders of Society. And although his Right I - 10- nourable Friend had considerably altered his tone in this Bill, and had endeavoured to obviate objec tions to it—still it was inefficient for its purpose, and would be vexatious in its effete—it would he vexatious in its effea, because of its inefficiency for its purpose : it was a measure that would diminish and depress, when we should increase and enliven the vigour of the Country. He thought also that the memory of large bounties would not die away for a considerable time ; that men would not enlist for such Bounty as was here allowed unt'er such regulation. He observed that some Members of the House expeeted much advantage to the Country, if the plans of the late Administration should have the vigour of the present to Wry them into efiett ; and this was partly of that nature, For his own part he had no such hope ; and indeed it was a little whimsical, that a majority of the present Cabinet had sant - Honed both this plan, and that for which it was intended as a substitute. Having urged those and other objections to the Bill, and a,pproved of the sentiments expressed on former occasions on this subject by Mr. WitaDat.aat, be concluded by giving his negative to the Motion. General MAITLAND felt it a duty he owed to himself as a Member of Parliament, and also as 'a Member of a Profession to which the Bill applied, to make a few observations. He confessed he agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, in thinking that this Bill would be ineffedual for the purpose it was intended for, and.oppreSsive and vexatious in the attempt to carry it into execu tion. As a means of gaining men for the Service, he was sure it would be inefficacious, and he was sure it would not produce any thing like the number of men eipeaed to be raised by it, . without being extremely oppressive and burthensome. Govern„ ment would earn - no men, but they might take money under this Bill. In looking at this Bill, m considering its merit s an d its deerits,and comparing it with the measure of a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ADDINGTON), he considered it in a still more unfavourable point of view. The Administration of that Right Hon. Gentleman, and others who hid re. tired with him, had been charged with want of ca. pacitj , , of vigour, and of energy ; b ut h e woul d a sk , whet her any man would get up in that House, and state that this Bill had any quality of vigour or energy ? In one word, he had no hesitation in de claring it as his opinion, that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. AtiorNoroN), for which this Bill was the substitute, in comparison with it, was the very essence of energy and vigour. This was a measure (to adopt a phrase ia!rady used) of milk and water, as far as its provision went to serve the State. It had indeed energy and vigour, but they were of a very different kind from that which its advocates imputed to it—it was a mea. sure of vigour to oppress the People, and of energy ro unite them to dislike it. The measure of the Right Honourable - Gentleman who had lately ben Minister, had been greatly opposed, on account of its allowing Gentlethen to recruit for rank : when he proposed 25,000 men to the Regular Force, it was objefied to the measure, that raising any then for rank was vicious, and instances of that were given, as operating on the Service of last War.— He owned he did not see the force of the objt.c tions, although he admitted that raising men for rank, like every other measure, however good, was liable to objection, on account of abuse, hut the system he thought beneficial to the Puha Ser. vice, generally speaking. The present Bill con_ rained innumerable defeds, arid among them, the very eisq of which th e Ri g h t H on . Gentkanan (Mr. PITT) had complained so much, that of high bounty, in competition against the Regular Service, being, in reality, six guineas above the bounty for the Line, as had been already stated by the Right Ho lt . Oentlern an who had just spoken. But a point of much more importance than any thing he had hi.' thert o stated, was the awful situation in which this Country stands. The charader of our Enemy was not changed, though his title was ; and although, from various circumstances, some time may elape before his project against this Country shall be at. tempted, he saw no symptom whatevei of his hav ing abandoned it. The late Minister was charged with delay in the measures he brought forward for the Defence of the Country; but this measure must necessarily cause a great deal More delay than any measure proposed by that Right Hon. Gentleman. It would be unavoidably attended with such delay, that 'he very much believed the project of the Ene my Might be tried before we shall have raised ten thousand men under this Bill for the general service. The great objection he had to this Bill was, that of its being a 'permanent measure, and that it was an attempt Id raise a superstrutture without any solid foundation ; so far from a solid foundation, the foun dation was entirely rotten. lie took occasion to applaud the Army of Reserve Bill, as the best mea. sure that could have been adopted under the circum. stances that called for it; but this, although pre. tended to be built on that measure, had none of its merit. It made no provision for various situations in which men might be placed—indeed there was one general defect in raising the Army, and in making a distinction in the sort of service they were to be employed, and the bounty they were to re ceive. Men in the affairs of common life, would not embark in business or labour of an unhealthy kind unless the reward was proportionable ; thus, for instance, men would not work upon white lead at the price of common labour. Why ? Because it was understood that human life could not endure it above six years. So in the services of our Army, a distinetion ought to be made in the Bounty, if not in the pay of men, according to the service they may be called upon to perform ; not that he meant to say, upon the whole of our military , service, sol diers were scantily paid ; on the contrary, the pay ment was liberal ; he only mentioned this as an idea fit to be entertai ne d i n t h e di scuss i on o f a permanent measure. He thought also that this was not a time favourable for the adoption of a permanent Military System, but that we should wait for a time of peace, when the Militia shall be disembodied, and when the System of the Supplementary Militia inight be supplied by some other measure. Taking the best view he was able of the whole of this Bill, he saw in it irefficacy on the one hand, and oppression on the other, and therefore it met his decided negative. Mr. OSBORNE observed, it had been said this measure would be inefficacious on the one hand, and oppressive on the other, and pro. money but not men--he confessed this last allegation appeared to him extraordinary. The hill did not.-call for one shilling but in the' event of not raising the men. As to the oppression and hardships which the Bill would produce, they existed only i n -the imaginations of Gentlemen on the nrher I,lde of the House. BUt what measure of extensive (Teta, tiorowas there, which nvould not produce some i neon. venience ? And who was there who wOuld not saeri fiee some of his' personal . comforts, at this time, Cr. the service of his Country ? For his patt l he believed tfie . People of this Country were all ready to make that sacrifice, and they never were more th.,n at the present moment, sanguine in their expectations of advaetage from the talents of the Right Hen. Gene tleMan now . at - the head of His Majesty's Govern.. meet ; he believed the Peopk pettedly confided in him.; and that this Bill . wotild be efficacious as re, the objeft for which it was intended. For these reasons he gave it his support. Geheral GASCOYNE said, that as a miiirari man he vier `desirous of delivering his sentiments on this 4oeftrjvhich were directly opp os i te to t h os e 'of the Right Hon. Colenel .'ho had epe'<er• last hue one : on the .subject of raising men by Officers foe rank, he differed entirely from the Right flon, Colonel. The - Right Hon. Colonel had defended that pra6lice.—The Right H Coloriel General ill A ItaL AA' D spoke to order.--He ob served, that he did not trouble the House with arm thing that related to himsclf; " but," said he, '' leave to the House to consider of the eery fair and handsome manner in which the H Gentleman has attetnpted to attack Me, when I spoke nothing was not within order; and when the Honoarable Gentleman, instead of an argument, enter.; into a doubt whether an Officer had the rank °fa Brigadier General or not." General GASCOYNE Whatever rank the Ho". Colonel or 'General may have, I do not know---I thought I spoke cot-redly—l did too knoss that there was such a thing in England as a Briga dier.General.—lt is new to Me." General MAITL:4AD I submit to the House the regularity of entering now into a discinsion the question, whether there be a rank of Brigadier General or not ?" General GASCOYNE then proceeded to observe on the evils which he maintained to be inseparable from the system of allowing Officers rank ter raising Men. It had been complained of in the service un.ler. General CONWAY, General Lord A MHERSI', and his Royal Pighness the present Commander in Chief, and they had done every thing that talents and exec tion could accomplish, hut the evils were fnterseoveri with the system of raising men fir rank. It wa's lice btibery at der - lions, it signified not what - heat was made against it ; the thing would somehow or other take placc.. How Could a ca - Milela h eproe e t (fietid o f 'his givi n g a voter fire guineas'? Jeat so' it was white rattle was allowed for mcn—higli Bnuniies would be given in order to raise thon. He then proceeded to observe, that although he was itvoUr... able to the Bill now beihre the Hou se , great ( lift_ collies would be thrown in the way of it, for . the Memory of large Bounties would not coon be lest. He observed, that as to the Army of Reserve, the House would be astonished to see the list of deser tions, when fifty guineas Bounty were given. The tr'ekure would have this good effect, that if meta raised under it should desert, having been raised froM the Parishes, it will be more easy to fi :d them out, than if they had been oaken prorniscutinsly from all parts of the Country. As far n 6 lie .13111. went, he cordially approved of it ; blur lie wished it had gone farther. Another good thing that wonlel attend it was, that it would increase the old Regi. e merits, and it was perfealy clear that the Army of Reserve scarcely added one to them, but lessened their recruiting. He observed, that he had kn o w n Lieutenants of the age of 60, who, if length cf'ser. vices were considered, were more fir for promotion' than either the Right Hon. General or hirnself.— He was not surprized at the opposition set up against this measure : if it had been a measure more deserving Of support (although this did deserve suo_ port), it would not have failed, under the present circumstance,, to have met opposition ; but hi the course of the next Session of Parliament; he had no doubt there would be Arriendments suggesfed by experience, which would rnoke it Meet the cordial approbation of the Country at large. Mr. ELLISON thought, that when it was stated that the Country was in a Most perilous situation, and when so many fairlts were toOnd - with those who preceded the Gentlemen now in 'office,- for want • of plans sufficient for the exigencies of .the present times, something much better than the present Bill might have been expeded from the Right Hon. Gentleman. The present Bill seemed more intended for a foundation of a permanent - system winch Was to operate in (dune, than for a measure likely to meet the perils of the present times. The ball 6 being taken away, the particular exemptions are taken away also, and it might happen that those Volunteers to whom the exemptions had lately .been, given, would find themselves the persons who , were to be called upon to pay the fines which were td be levied on the Parish, in default of raising the Taxa appointed. The tax would operate as a dtouble tax on most of the estates in the Country, and that machinery of Deputy Lieutenants and Parish Oiliers , by no means reconciled him to the Measure•—he could riot receive this measure as a palladium for the, Country ; he considered it merely as a mode of keeping up a large standing Army at all times, and of getting the money necessary' for the purpose . , not in the regular way, but by the indired way of levy. ing fines for nonperformance of that which it would, perhaps, be found impossible to periorm. Coloi;e1 MITFO RD felt very numer 'us and weighty objettions to the measure proposed, which, as bring a measure falling within the line of his pro.