The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-05 00:00:00

that vote. The Learned Gentleman who spoke last had contended, and had quoted several cases DLit of his own book, to prove that persons in Holy Orders were not eligible to a Seat in that House— he had, however, completely failed in proving that proposition ; he had she wn, indeed, that persons had been declared ineligible, but not because they were ita Holy.Ordeis, but because they sat, or were enti tled to sir, in Convocation ; but this term .was not applicable to the Hon. Gentleman who was the sub jed of this Motion, and consequently the Motion itself was not aulicable to him. As to this phan tom of the Convocation, -he considered it as one of those parts of the Constitution which had expired; and here he could not avoid quoting two lines from FIELDIrc, who, using his licence as a Poet in the greatest possible extent, supposed Common Sense to be a real person, and what was a still greater poetical flight, he supposed Common Sense govern ing the World as a Sovereign, and he made one of the Personages of his Poem thus iddress this imagi_ nary Sovereign : Hail Couamon Sense--,for whilst thou reign'st on earth, The ConvoCation ne'er shall sit again. He was inclined to think that the Poet was founded in his assertion, and, that there was as much chance of the Convocation sitting again, as there was of the restoration of the Bourbon Family. There was one thing well worthy of notice, which was, that the House, when they declared, that persons were ineligible, never used the words in Holy Orders, but always sitting, or being liable to sit in Convoca tion. Great reliance had been placed on the deci sion in the case of Cradock, but upon investigation, it would be found not to decide the case one way or the other. In 1643, a Law was passed, excluding Ecclesiastics frOm sitting in Parliament. After, the Restoration in 1661, this Ad was repealed, but it appeared, that though the decision upon Cradock's ease was subsequent to the repeal of the Aft,----yet his Eledion was prior to it, and consequently he was rejcaed, because his came uoder the positive words of an At of Parliament. But he wished to know, what was the difference between the two louses of Parliament ? In the House Of Lords the Bishops not only sat as Clergymen, but because they were 'Clergymen : but exclusive of the Bishops, there were other Clergymen who sat in that House, and ii was in the power of His MAJESTY' to create any Ecclesiastic a Peer, and he had never heard of a Minister being censured for advising His MA. , PISTY to make a person in Holy Orders a Peer. There was, undoubtedly, formerly a reason why Clergymen should not be Members of the House of Commons, because they either sat in, o; were re presented in Convocation; but as the cause had ceased, so 'had the effed, and as the Convocation sin longer existed, the disability of Persons in Holy Orders could not continue.: As far therefore as the authorities .;Vent, it did not appear that anv one per son had bt.ers declared ineligible far being in Holy . Orders except Dr. Cradock, and the decision in case was founded upon an Ad of Parliament which was immediately repealed. Some allusions had been made to the business of the Middlesex Eleelion ; he knew the opinion he then entertained was unpopular, but he still retained it, though he was aware that it was contrary to that of some of the ablest Constitutional Lawyers of this Country. But his opinion was of no consequence, for Parliament had, by ordering the proceedings upon that occa sion to be erased from the Journals, completely de cided the question. Upon the whole, he was de cidedly of opinion, that there was not the slightest ground for the Motion which the Noble Lord had made,, and therefore he should give his vote for the Order of the Day. Sir WM. SCOTT said, that this was a question of very great importance, and in order to consider it - properly, it would be necessary to divide it into different heads.—ln the first place, the question of Ecclesiastic, or not Ecclesiastic, mitst be decided by the Canon Law, not from any resped to the au thority by which - those Canons were made, but from long and uniform acquiescence. The next question to be considered was, whether a person could divest himself of his ecclesiastical funifion, and become a Layman at his pleasure ? Upon this point, nothing could be more clear, than that from the ear liest periods of the Christian Church, it was held impossible for a. man who had once en tered into Holy Orders to divest himself of that charade, and again to become a Layman. He would not trouble the House with a long derail of quotations from the .canon LaW, by which it was declared, that the Clerical Charaaer was irrevoca ble.; but with respea to the Gentleman who was the objea of this Motion, he wished to ask, Wh'e ther he had not . now a right to 'ail the privileges of his brder.r—whether he had not now a right. to be appointed to a n y of th e mos t va l u able prefer ments of the Church ? If this qoestion WaS.ariswer- . cd in the affirm'ative, as it undoubtedly nitist,' was it not mile... too much to say, that he enjoyed all the adyantage'S belonging to his Order ; but that at the same time, h e was exempted from all . the i nco o, veniencies attending it. - A considerable reliance iiad. been placed upon, the cirevinstauce of person s . in 'Holy Orders, being ti'rned out of their Mini stry for miscodue.t; but .7..ntleaten watild perceive, that there was a material difference between being prevented for a time from exercising theft fun Lions as aClergyman, and being dives team' toge ther ofTheir Clerical clia-aaer• • In the Church of 'Rome, Or . f Lunationwas a. Sacrament; and though upon the )kefotrnation it ceased to be so, yet it was little less r --and a Ii14:1 ought not one day to make the. most oletuti profosSion,. and the next with idle le .vity to giv it up. Even the buildings which were devoted to the purposes of Religion, were consi .dcred << for e'er sacred ; and it could not be sup posed, that the character of the Ministers of Reli gion cot:ld be given pp at pleasure. The ne) , ,:t goes tzon was, Whe:fier a Person in Holy Orders was, or was.lloe eligible to serve in Parliament-?= Upon this - part of.the suhjca, it would be' necessary to inquire whether focmcfly persons in Holy Ordep were e;igitlle to serve in Parliament, and if they were 'not', whether any change had since taken place 'to give ibelo a right which they did not originally possess ? With respea to the express ion upon which to Mucl• had been said, viz. that persons were de claret! ineligible because they were Members of the Convocation, it must mean person% in Holy Orders, because there were several Members of Convoca tion who had a right to sit in Parliament, for in stance the person who filled the office he now held, and many others, who were Members of the Con vocation, and who most undoubtedly had a right to sit in Parliament—With regard to the other point, it appeared clear to him that no change 114 taken place in the disability which formerly existed of Clergymen sitting in Parliament. They had indeed acquired the right of voting .for their Glebes, and it was contended that because they had acquired the Eleaive Franchise, that of course they had a right to sit in Parliament ; but this assertion was not correa, because there. were many persons who had a right of voting for Members of Parliament who were not eligible to serve in Parliament. Near too years had now elapsed since they had acquired the eletive franchise, and though there were many men of great talents- and.ambition among the Cler gy, yet in all that time no. attempt had been made by them to obtain a seat in Parliament. It had been said, that other persons who were incapacitat. ed had. been incapacitated by At of Parliament, and that there had been no Mt of Parliament to in. capacitate Ecclesiastics ; but -in answer to, this he begged leave to state, that those other persons who had been incapacitated by Statute, had previously a common Law-right in them, which was not the case of the Clergy, ,and therefore it was not neces sary to pass an Ad of Parliament to take from them a right which they never possessed. He, was by no means sure that the Clergy themselves would think they were benefited by. obtaining this privilege.— This House, was a field for ambition, but the Con stitution of the Country, and the duties of Religion, had given them another sphere of anion. Con sidering the Question in this point of view he was under the necessity of declaring, that if the Noble Lord persevered in his Motion he should give his vote for it. {We lament very much that the very late hour at which the House rose, prevents us from giving this Speech in de tail, as it was one of the most learned and argumentative we ever heard.] Mr. ERSKINE, in a Speech of some length, argued in favour of the eligibility of Clergymen to serve in Parliament. He began by, noticing the At of 1641, which excluded - Ecclesiastics from sitting , in Parliament. The Preamble to that Aka, stated, that - great inconveniences had ;arisen from Ecclesias tics sitting in Parliament—Now, if they had never before sat in Parliament, it would have been absurd to state their sitting there had been produdive of inconvenience. This AA was repealed in 1661, and it was worthy of notice, that the preamble to the latter Ad stated, that the Ad of 1641 had made several alterations in the .Law and Customs of the Laud : • this appeared to him a complete proof that that AF} had invaded the antient Law and, Constitution of Parliament, by declaring,- that per_ sons in Holy Orders were ineligible. No man could feel more highly than he did the sacred duties which a Clergyman had to per form i or would wish more than he did to keep those persons from mix. ing . in the turbulent scenes of the world ; but if he was asked, whether the distindions which were pow contended for, were founded on the antient Law of the Country, hiS answer would be, certainly not. But if it was inconsistent with -the duties Of a Cler gyman to at as a Member of Parliament, surely it was' as improper for them to ad as Magistrates ; and yet it was known that the Public had derived great benefit from the exertions of several•Magi_ strates at Quarter Sessions, &c. With respell: to the case of Dr. Cradock, it appeared to him to have no thing to-do with this Lase, because he was declared ineligible, not under the general Law and Custom of Parliament, but in consequence of a specific Sta— tute which had since been repealed, consequently it did not affed the case one way or another. Jr had never been argued that the King could not make •a man a Peer, even though he should happen to be a Priest—this certainly was giving the King a much greater power than the House of Commons. With resped to the Convocation, he knew it existed in theory, but it did OA exist fbr any essential pur pose. They could not vote money, and. therefbre the existence of the Constitution in theory was no reason why Clergymen should not sit in Parliament. Mr. EASY. having argued these points at some length, concluded with stating, that he should vote for the Order of the Day. The ATTO RNEY GENERAL said, that the Gentlemen who argued this case on the other side; had contended that there was not the slightest doubt in, the case ; but• instead of asserting, he wished them to lay their finger upon that page of the Con sti tu t ion which warranted the principle which they supported, or to show one solitary intance of a per son in Holy Orders sitting in Parliament. If such. cases and such principles were to be found, it might have been •in these new Constitutional Codes by which the world had been illuminated, but certainly not in those volumes to which he had been accus tomed to look, not in the great Law Authorities of the kingdom, not in the Journals of Parliament, nor in the History of the Country. Looking into these au_ - thotities, hq did not - find a single case of 4ny Ecclesi astic Sitting in that House, nor could be found such a right any where laid down. Gentlemen bad relied much upon the aft 1641, but that ati was made against the Bishops, though all Clergy were included by name. This appeared to be the Intention of the Aft, from the words which were used in the Ad of ifioi, by which it was repeated, for it was there called an At ;,gainst the Bishops, and His Majesty in giving his assent, to the Bill, used similar lan guags. With respe& to Cradock's 'Case, he was declared ineligible upon the .Aft of 16.}.1, for that Mt was repealed six months, before his elettion was decided, and therefore this was a case directly in point, and in favour of the doarine which he was supporting. The ATTORNEY GINERAI. then followed Mr. Fox and Mr ERSKINE through the whole of their arguments,, and concluded- with stating, that with this opinion upon the subje6t, lie should have voted for the Noble Lord's Motion, but as he understoo that a Bill . was to be brought inct Parliament to settle thii pOint, he should a t preient vote for the Motion of the Right Hop. Gen. tleman, for: the Order of the Day. Mr. GREY took a view rf the Speech of the Hon. Gentleman, who had argued from Parliamen tary usage and precedent, and also frOm the indeli bility of the priestly chargler, against the eligibi lity of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. TOOKE). He in sisted that these two arguments were contradiaory. If the Order of the Priesthood was inconsistent with any Secular or Legislative Power, why then were persons in Holy Orders sufrered to sit and exercise Legislative and Judicial Power in the other House ? On the ground of Parliamentary usage, the case -of ineligibility did not appear to him to be clearly made out. In this point, Mr. GR E Y examined the circumstances recorded respeaing the ElMion of Dr. Campocx and Mr. RUSH WORTH, quoting Mr. FlArsELL's Reports on the latter case. To talk of the priestly charaaer being imprinted on the mind, was to him unintelligible ; and he would ask whether the purity of Religion could be best answered by forcing a person to - continue in the discharge of an Office contrary to his inclination and judgment, and to att the hypocrite, or by allowing him to abandon an Office which his conscience told -him he could no longer discharge ? He thought the better way would be to pass a Law that no Ecclesiastif r , has ing a seat in that House, should ever afterwards per form an ecclesiastical fuktion. Mr. YANSITTART said he was one of the Com mittee on Rushworth's Eledion. He understood the distiktion made in that case was, being a persons in Deacon's and in Priest's Orders, the former be ing considered as delible, the other not. He stated an instance in point, of a Deacon who had resigned his funatons into his Bishop's hands, but said no such instance could be stated in the case of a Priest. Mr. TOOKE, with the leave of the House, read the opinion of Dr. Wynne, in Rushworth's case, de claring that he (lid not think there was any cano nical impediment to a person 'in Deacon's Orders having a Seat in the House of Commons. Sir IV. SCOTT admitted that there was no cano nical impediment, but insisted that the Common Law and the'usage of ,Parliament militated against it. Mr. BRAGGE went at large into the question, and ably r indicated the condua of the Committee in their examination of the Rolls and Records of Parliament. He concluded with declaring his ap probatis.m of the Motion for the Order of the Day. Mr. Fox and Mr. GREY explained. Mr. ABBOT argued against the eligibility of the Clergy to a seat in Parliament, as Representatives of the Commons ; but approved of the Motion for the Order of the Day, and of a Bill being after.. wards brought in declaratory of the subjest.. Sir HENRY MILDMAY, the SOLICITOR GENE. RAI., and Mr. HENNIKER MAJOR spoke to, the same effed. Earl TEMPLE replied to the arguments against his Motion, and particularly objeded to those who agreed with him in opinion as to the ineligibility of Mr. HottNE Toox E's holding a seat in that House, not coming to a decision upon it, but voting for the Order of the Day. • The CHANCELLOR of Ae EXCHEQUER said, that he now found he was guilty of an irre. gularity in moving for the Order of the Day, that Order being the Motion of the Noble Earl on which they had been debating. He begged leave, there.. fore, with the consent of the House, to withdraw his Motion, and to substitute in its stead the Motion for the Previon3 Question. Upon this a division was loudly called for. For the Previous Question 94. Against it - 53 Majority 4 1 At Half-past Two o'Clock in the Morning, the Howe adjourned , till this day. THE SUN. SOLEM QLIS DICIRE 7nI.SUM AVDIAT L N'D 0 ,V, A 1 A Y 5, i SoI . THE Paris Papers to the 2d inst. arrived this morning. They are barren of intelligence. The Alon;teur is still silent as to Egypt ; but the Clef du Cabinet ventures to predift, that the intelligence' which has reached EAT/and is unfavourable to the British, as they have not yet published it. We are told in the Official Paper, that according to the determination of the Porte to release all the French Prisoners detained at Conitamtiltople, and in the Fortresses of the Black Sea, General SALCEIT E Citizen BE ISSERES CHAR DOME 1., and several other Officers of Artillery, have already arrived at An- CONQ• 'The new Sovereign of Tuscany, who travels un. der the name of the Du L• of Leghorn, left Madrid on the 22.1 April. The QUEEN and Paiscrssrs vecterday, ac companied by PRINCE ADOLPHUS, took an airing in their carriages through Richmond. Her Royal Highness the DUTCHESS of YORE left Bath yesterday for her seat at Oatlands. By Letters- from jersey, of - the 29th ultimo, we learn that advices had that morning been received by a Boat from the Coast of; France, that the French Troops assembled at Cherbourg were very.numerous, and in a state of great preparation, for the avowed object of making an attack upon the Islands of Guernsey and Jersey. Preparations were making in both Islands for a vigorous defence. General MACKENZIE, 'who came over last week in one of the Packets from Cuxhaven, came from where he had been for some time upon the Stair. Passing through Berlin, he brought over Dispatches with him from Lord CMOISFOR T. 14 . 6 " 7: 1 7 , NAVAL NEWS. IV,* WI impet;um telagi, toy:tape tridenteM. Sed mit; torte datum. PORTSMOUTH, MAY 4. SAILED His Majesty's Ships Brilliant and,Trent, with a Convoy for the Downs.,; and His Majosty's Ship Brunswick fa the Eastward. YARMOUTH, MAY 4. SAILED the Hazard Cutter on a Cruize.. Arrived the lospcaor Sloop, and Narcissus and ;Vette Brigs, from a Cruize. Sailed the Four Ericnds, a Cartel, with seven French Prisoners for Dunkirk. . • SHEERNESS, MAY 4. SAILED His Majesty's Ship Lion, of 64. guns, Capt. MITFORD, for Spithead. Arrived His Majesty's Ship Loins, of 3S . guns, Capt. SPAANGER, from the River Thames. • THE ATR £.-A new Opera was Inzt forward last night at Drury-Lane Theatre] ander the name- of Aelelarorn the Outlaw. It is ,the acknowledged produaion of Mr. LEWIS, the vge~lL known author of The Monk. The Fable was so confused, that it was difficult to comprehend it distinetly, bur there was nothing novel or interest ing enough in it to deserve a detail. The Author has borrowed from his own Castle Speare, as well as from other Pieces, but has borrowed so injUdi, ciously, that his work, altogether, is one of the most despicable Pieces that ever disgr aced a Lo n , don Theatre. He has resorted to the hackneyed expedient of a Ghost, which first appears as a d and twice afterwards, once to forgive an acconiphei in the murder, and a third time to convia th 4 murderer. In short, it is difficult to describe itt dulness, folly, and . profanation of what ought to'bo sacred. The Music was composed by KELLY, anti it is to be regritted that it was throw" da r n) upon such arrant nonsense. A numerous Audki nc i consigned it to the oblivion it merits. . It is said Government has received official advict that Admiral GI NTHEAUME'S Squadron, after Sail. ing from Tonivs on the 19th of March; returnee again on the znt. The Prince of BRAZIL is to command, accordfnl to the French Papers, the Portuguese Army it person. _ The persons who were concerned in the cutieui affair of carrying off the Senator CLEMENT Dl Rr some months ago in Frame, have been apprehended. We shall probably learn from their trial some par_ ticulars respating this modern BITTY CA N NING. Last week GEORGE IVERS, Esq. was exiled to the Degree of Barrister at Law by the lipn. Spcietj of the Middle Temple. Yesterday morning, between seven and eliAt o'clock, a most horrid murder was. perpetrated' at Stepney Comruen,Jon a woman of the name Of lAN. son, wife of a milk-carrier in the employmedi cd Mr. Egg, of Narrow-srreet, Limehouse. The hut. band of the deceased, on his return hoine, found his wife bleeding on the floor, with her head beat in with a hammer, which was lying on the flour close by-her. All the clothes they possessed _were tied up in a bundle, ready to be taken away : the murderer took twelve shillings, being the whole that the poor people had saved the preceding week. The Landlord of the Five Bells Public-hou'se, - in Swallow.street, Piccadilly, who has been missing for three weeks, was yesterday found drowneJ in his water-butt. All wonder will cease at the crowded - Audiences seen every evening at the Royal Circus, St. George's - fields, when the merit of .each Piece offered to the public eye at that Theatre is considered. Nothing can exceed the representation of the late glorious Vilory of the Northern Fleet ; - such is the rna. nceuvring of the ships, particularly a real Seventy four, with Nelson and his brave Crew on board. The Speftacle of Rinaldini has every charm which fine music and interesting incident can yield ; the Equestrian. Feats of that surprizing infant, Master Saunders, are complitely unrivalled ; and the Pan. tomitne of the Magic Flute is as great a .Lrouritc as ever. CORN EXCHANGE, Monday, May 4. IS,I. We had a pretty good supply of English Corn, with a far ther arrival of Foreigners, which caused out Market for Wheat to be exceeding dull in sale, and about Is!. per quar ter cheaper than last Monday. Fine runs from Kent, Essex, and Subeilk, went - off 'from tris. to tzos. and fine Foreign from 95 . i. to zoos. -- • Rye is rather cheaper. There being a good deal of Barley, caused that article to be fuel's. per quarter lower. Malt is something cheaper, 755. being the top price. Pats arc es. per quarter cheaper from last Monday. 'White and Grey Pease are very dull in sale, anti cheaper. Flour is los. per sack cheaper since last Monday. BIRTIT. On Sunday last, in Portugal-street, Grosvcnor-square, the Lady of Colonel Brownrigg, of a swri. STOCKS, DAY. India Stock 201 304 Ditto Bonds s. dis. Exchequer Bills New ditto : Lottery rickets Ontnium to 9k 9 !raper. 3 per (-coat. Ditto Ann. it i-z 6 Bank for Account ndia for May Cons. for May 611 6s PRICE a V 1 S Bank Stock Navy per Cent. 961 761 5 per Cent. 17971 94i S 41 Irish per Cent. 4 per rent. Con. 79m1 3 per Cent. Red. 6o 594 i ;per CerlLCon. Or 6offt Ditto Scrip llank• Long Ann. 5-t6 Ditto Short Ann." 5 1-36 k Ditto Scrip _ ts: I) N Erintetl by ti UCH Als A .m4m LLA N. tot lit3w-Strfet, Caveir-C ara n4t cn); a t'uolibtxti hy ‘si L ac Alt m r Sri Pr s (of liorse-terry.road, Westminster' i) At th 4 Svs-or,Fics, si ran d sy sere 4./,„"p„,,,.,i,t r ., th.,/,,• 1 tor' the Papr, Lrrrfrr i^ r the, Ei;!•, - c. ovt-taid), must be addressed! , . de.