The Sun. — London, England, 1832-03-21 00:00:00

of the. welfare of 'the labouring classes ; and the reason bad been shortly this—when first the Government wa• established, the whole expense of it was defrayed to property, whilst, labour being free, lived by its own in. dustry ; but as property increased in wealth, power cm,- with it, and as power creates abuse, ao property began with shifting by degrees the burthen of its own protection upon labour's back ; thus taxation commenced, and conti nued so increase from time to time, as labour was found able to bear it ; and thus the hand of industry was turned against itself, in strengthening the power that oppressed it. But to pass over the intermediate history of the increase of taxation, and to come at once to the close of the present state of the country, it had been the funding system—the foundation of all its wealth and misery—but which, from having been the source of its distress, had become the means to remove it ; (or what but the funding system, in mortgaging labour instead of capital to pay the interest of the Public Debt, had acted like the steam-engine in mul tiplying the powers of both to that degree, which, to re peat the emphatic close of the Right Hon. Baronet's late speech, " had made and preserved this the proudest nation in the annals of the world ;" but which assertion, be must beg leave to say, contained more fallacy than truth; for, however true that the combined powers of the capital and labour of England exceeded all the world besides, it was no less true that the powers of both, for want of combination, had long since been dormant, and that the real situation of the country, both at home and abroad, was the reverse of that which the Right Honourable Baronet had described. But this had been the necessary consequence of the same funding system, which, in mortgaging the labour of the people, who had all along been paying the interest of the increasing debt, whilst capital was left to accumulate, load thus enabled the Right Hon. Baronet to draw the d it tering picture on his own side, where property, in climb_ ing all the while the ladder of its wealth, had now arrived at the top, and might well boast of the high ground it stood on ; but what was the picture on the other side? During the progress of this cruel system, which after so many years had brought the nation to its two extremes of poverty and wealth, whole generations of hard-worked, ill fed, short-lived, and even half-grown labour, had been swept away; and such was its present state, that Mini sters were now sending it frora the country to prevent its st Irving in it, And this, the labour of England, to which her property owed all its wealth, and which, having once given her that proud weight in the scale of nations, stated by the Right Hon. Baronet, might not only do the same again, but render her far happier and more truly great in peace than she had ever been in war—for all that was wanting to restore her power, was simply for property to untie labour's hands. And now, to say how this was to he done, let property at once begin with taking the bur then of the public debt, by which it would relieve both la bour and itself. But first, he must state the value of the whole property of the country, which, according to the es timate in Dr. Colquhoun's work, published in 1812, then amounted to 2,738 millions ; to which ought to be added, the great increase of property during the last twenty years; but he would leave this out, that he might adopt the esti mate of Mr. Richard Heathfield, in his plan for the liqui dation of the public debt, first published in 1819, and which he begged to state very shortly to the House, in justice to the author and in defence of the opinion of so humble an individual as himeelf. In this plan, Mr. Heathfield estimated the value of the property of the kingdom, at 2,900 millions ; to which he added the 800,000,0001. of public debt, making in the whole 3,600 millions. Upon this stun he proposed to levy an assessment of 20 per cent. amounting to the sum of 720,000,000/. ; with which to liquidate the debt to that amount, and thus at once relieve labour from thirty millions of taxation. Of this 720,000,000/. of the debt, 160,000,000/., being the amount of the assessment of the ftandholders, would be at once cancelled ; the landholders, and other proprietors re quiring time, being taxed with the interest due upon their assessments until the whole was paid off. If then property, in thus far relieving labour from taxation would benefit itself, could there be a question, that in bearing the whole expenditure of the Government, it would derive increased advantage from it. For, in fact, the depression of labour which had commenced with the peace, and had ever since been increasing, had alre.dy burdened property to the full amount of taxation, and with aggravated weight. But the whole question of the present system of taxation, and its cruel effect: on capital and I ibour, in baying rendered both unable to benefit each other and the country, were futlyexplained in Mr. Heathfield's publications on the sub ject—wherein he had shown, that in raising the revenue by taxes on consumption, instead of a tax on property, the necessaryeffect of high duties, in multiplying prices by the action and re-action of price on price, so increased the amount, that the annual tax of 1/. on any article of con sumption required at least 61. in the general prices to dis tribute the burthen of the 1/. paid to the treasury. Such being the effect of the present system of taxation, which every Hon. Member might learn by reading Mr. Heath fieliVe book, he would no longer detain the House than to state hie humble but firm conviction, that the adoption of Mr. Heathfield's plan would, in again combining the gi gantic powers of the capital and labour of England, at once ranee her out of all her difficulties. Colonel WOOD said, if the disfranchisement had been confined to schedule A, he (Colonel Wood) would not have opposed it, but he objected most strongly to the course pursued with respect to the boroughs in schedule B. If there were any boroughs in schedule B not fit to re tain their power of returning Representatives, he pre ferred that they should be put at once into schedule A, so that they might not introduce a new principle, and one dangerous to the Constitution. As to the metropolitan clause, he thought it the most objectionable in the Bill. It give universal suffrage to the inhabitants of the metropolis, - and at the same time brought that suffrage almost to their own doors. He had heard it said that Paris was France; he hoped that London would never be England. He bad felt it his duty to object to taking the third Member from Mon mouthshire, because he thought that the interests of agri culture in that [louse ought not to be diminished; hut, in his opinion, it n-as a bad principle to give third Members counties ; it would have been much better not to have hroLen down the various rural boroughs with which agri culture was connected. He strongly objected against any reduction in the number of the English representatives. If Scotland and Ireland could make out claims to additional representatives, let them have them, but not at the ex• pence of Engin/. He certainly thought that Scotland was entitled to an addition of twenty Members ; but he doubted if a case could be made out fur the addition of any representatives for Ireland. As it was, he objected to the third reading of the Bill, the adoption of which, in its present shape, would make an inroad on the English Con stitution, the consequences of which no wan could foresee. Mr. ROBINSON supported the motion fur the third reading of the Bill. In the progress of the measure he had felt it his duty to vote against some of its details; but when, from the n fusel of the other patty to consent to any Reform, he was driven to the alternative of having no Reform at all, or of having the Bill with whatever im perfections he might suppose belonged to it, he could not hesitate upon the subject. He had never heard from the opponents of tie Bill what degree of Reform they were prepared to concede. With respect to the measure under consideration, it rested on the broad ground of expedi ency ; that was the only ground on which it could be justified. It had been maintained that the proposed Re form was objectionable, because it destroyed the balance in that House between the agricultural and manufacturing interests, He did not think that it would have that effect. Besides, it ought to be considered that the other House was almost exclusively agricultural in its interests ; and that even if the manufacturing interest were to prepon derate in the House of Commons (which, however, he cle aned that it would), it would only be what was due to it. Again, it was objected that they were about to take away the influence of the Aristocracy. The undue influence of the Aristocracy-it was undoubtedly intended to take away. The measure was calculated to give the people a greater share in the choice of their representatives, and a greater centrol over these representatives when chosen. But it was contended that the Bill would destroy the present means by which the colonial interests were represented in Parlia ment. Those interests would still be represented as they then were; they would be represented indirectly. The interests of the Colonies were so identified with the inte rests of the Mother Country—that every Member must regard them as inseparable, All other modes of represent ing the Colonies in that House would be absurd ; fur the number of direct Members for the Colonies must be so small that it would be total!), insignificant. If the Bill ware rejected, the country would be placed in a most pe rilous situetion. It was impossible that a new Gierrn ment could carry on the complicated affairs of the State without themselves, in the first instance, bringin g forward a full and extensive measure of Refe ree. Sir RICHARD VYVY AN—The Hon. Member ,Cho had just sat down had stated that he thought there were imperfections in the BM, and that many of its details would not work so well as some of its sanguine supporters expected ; and yet, although be must know that the mea sure once passed, could never be repealed, he stated that he was prepared, even against his own conviction, to lend it the weight and sanction of his support in its present stage. The only reason that the Hon. Gentleman had stated for pursuing this very extraordinary course was, that no other plan of Reform had been brought forward by those who were opposed to the present. If that were the only ground upon which the Hun. Gentleman—so much against his own better judgment, as it would seem— eves dEiven to support this Bill, why did he not, in justice to himself, to his constituency, and to his country, bring forward a measure of his own? It was evident that whe ther the Bill were now carried or not, whether it should be allowed to pass through all its stages in another House, or whether it should be stopped there as on a former oc casion—it was perfectly clear that the Government could not again, with any due regard to the feelings of the country, bring forward another such a measure of Reform. If rejected, it must be modified. At present there existed no precedent for the reproduction of a measure thrice re jected. It remained to be seen whether Lord Grey would venture on so novel a course. The Reform Bill had been re jected, first by the Commons, and then a dissolution took place. After that its fate was decided in another place— a prorogation followed—the measure was again brought forward—and the question now was, whether some Bill or other must pass? He believed that some measure was necessary, but he would oppose such a plan of Reform as that introduced by Government. The Hon. Member for Cake had said the question was, either the Bill or anarchy. That was an argument only for a timid assembly. The Hon. Baronet then argued that it would be most absurd in those Metnbera who had opposed many of the important clauses of the Bill, to vote for the third reeling, because, if they disapproved of some of its prin cipal parts, yet voted for the passing of the Bill, they acted like subjects under the control and comm and of a despotic sovereign. Here he could not help alluding to what had appeared in the daily papers, with regard to the Noble Lord the Member for Liverpool. I: appeared from these papers that a meeting had taken place in that town, of the Political Union, an a report had been drawn up with al the pomp and dignity of a deliberative assembly, like that of the House of Commons. The Noble Lord's conduct had been inquired into, his votes had been can vassed, and it had been decided that his conduct did not come up to the feeling of the Political Union of Liverpool, and that they had withdrawn their support from him. And what had the Noble Lord done? He had, it was true, voted against Ministers on some points, but so had many Members in a former Parliament ; yet Ministers in the new Parliament had adopted one important principle, on which a division took place before the dissolution—he meant the motion of General Gascoyne. Government had agreed to the General's proposition, that the number of Members should nut be diminished ; they baa agreed also that a Member should be given to Mer thyr Tydvil—(Hear, hear)—though they bad previously opposed it with all their power, and bad been obliged to take a Member from Monmouthshire, in order to keep up that proportion which they bad voted against on Ge neral Gascoyne's motion. The p'an of Ministers was five fold. It disfranchised sm all boroughs—enfranchised large towns—altered the representation for counties, the quell , fication for counties and boroughs, and the period of elec tion. The plan altogether which was brought forward to do away with anomaly, was the most anomalous of any ever produced. It proposed to take away the franchise from small places, and give it to large ones—yet, ab surdly enough, it left the franchise in boroughs not half the size nor half the importance of many towns which were to have no representatives. Another objection he had to the Bill was the annihilating principle on which it was founded. It went on the principle, in fact, of anni hilating all charters; and if it were to become the law of the land, he might then ask what right had many Noble men to their estates, and so hat right had the descendants of the House of Hanover to the throne of England ? The Government, in bringing forward the measure, had first of all contended that it was in order to preserve the Con stitution—that the Reform Bill only proceeded on the great principles of the Constitution, as established at some of the most important epochs of British history; but that plea was in time abandoned, and they came to the doctrine of expediency at last. The Bill had, in fact, been altered four times. Ile would not allude to attempts made in former times to carry some measure necessary for the security of a Ministry. He would not dwell on the creation of Peers made during the Ministry of the Earl of Oxford, or on the infringement of the rights of the Crown which such a measure was calculated to bring about ; but he would declare at once that he never would consent to the annihilation of any ext-tang right or charter. Ile would not consent to schedule A, because he was convinced that, by consent ing to that, the political rubicon would be passed. He would, however, agree to such a change as could be safely carried into effect ; but he would not destroy vested and chartered rights. As an abstract question he would say, that it would he only fair to give every man a vote, and thus introduce universal suffrage ; but though in the abstract such a plan might appear good in argument, it ' would be absurd in practice. It was equally absurd to extend the franchise to 101. householders. Why fix on that sum ? These 101. householders would be the repre sentatives of those under them, and what advantage would that be over the present system? He next objected to the vicious application of the principle of the Bill towards de cayed boruuhs, and to the 101. qualification. He objec ted also to giving so many Members to the metropolitan districts, not only on account of the violence which would be caused at the elections, but because be considered they were already sufficiently represented by the numerous Members who resided in town during the sitting of Par liament. There was one subject to which he could not for bear calling the attention of the House, on the eve of passing the Bill—he meant the language of a most un constitutional nature which had been lately held in public, and which was heard echoed in private, and which had, indeed, been now and then even hinted at in that House with regard to the question of New Peers being made to carry the Bill.—(Hear, bear.)—The Hon. Mem ber for Hertford (Mr. T. Duncombe) had, on a former occasion, called the attention of the House to that sub ject, and brought the matter before the House, as though it would be a virtue in Earl Grey to recommend the King to exercise his prerogative so as to ensure the passing of the Bill in the Upper House of Parliament. It had been said that letters had been written by a person in high authority to those who were believed to be opposed to the second reading of the Bill in the House of Peers, to know how far they were disposed to go; thus making a com promise to a certain extent. Why, if it were intended to inundate the house of Lords for the purpose of carrying this Bill, which was described as being so easenti.l to the circumstances of the times, if Ministers were going to ex- ercise the prerogative of the Crown, never pushed so far before, even in the reign of George the First—who did not intend that the circumstance to which he now alluded should ever be taken as a precedent—if the example of Lord Oxford were now to be followed, and Peers were to be created, he begged to ask Hon. Members whether they could ever hope to have an independent vote in that as sembly?—(Hear, hear.) He would not dilate upon what . . an Hon. and Learned Gentleman had, in the course of the debates upon this Bill, thrown out, that the Crown could exercise its prerogative in another way, by issuing writs to new towns to send 'Members, and suspend others for places which had become decayed. This was a doctrine of a dangerous nature, and one to which he (Sir R. Vyvyan) never could subscribe. —( near, hear.) lie then referred to the answer of Lord Oxford on his im peachment, who said that it was the pleasure of the Queen that the Peers—only 12 in number—were created, and it was not done at his desire. The Hon. Baronet, after alluding to the mobs collected, and the windows broken on the last Bill being rejected in the House of Lords, said that the country ought to be thankful to the House of Peers for what they had done last session, as it had given the people breathing time to consider the Bill.—(Hear.) . . He believed that should the Bill be rejected again by the Peers o❑ its second reading, the excitement would be trifling compared with whit took place last Oc tober, on the last Bill being thrown out.—(Hear, hear.) . _ . - He begged to call the attention of the lion. Member for Westminster to what had been said by Mirabeau.—(Hear.) Mirabeau had declared he would stand by the Crown, and in his reform plan he wished that the French Monarch should sill be at the head. The result he need not state, it being 30 familiar to the House. If the Reform measure now before the House should pass, he entertained fears and apprehensions as to the future, in common with many who sat on the sAme side as he did ; b❑t he knew that those who sat opposite did not feel those apprehen- sions. All that he claimed was equal credit for sincerity in such a belief, as he was willing to concede to those who _ . _ differed from him.—(Hear.) It had been observed by 3ladame de Stael—(Hear)—doubtless the Hon. Gentle man who cried " Hear" were acquainted with the wordy he was about quoting.—(A laugh.) Aladame deStaelhad said " That no revolution of such a nature as that which happened in France could have taken place unless part of the aristocracy of the country and Government had had . _ a hand in it.":--(Hear.) If, for party purposs, his Ma jesty's Ministers were able to alter the institutions of the country, in order that they might preserve their places, it ought not to be forgotten that they were responsible to their Sovereign and to the country for all that must fol low. He then appealed to the House of Lords, and he hoped that those Peers who had been instrumental in rejecting the last Bill, would never again be called the whisper of a fiction, calling upon them in the eleventh hour to save the country from the danger with which it was now threatened. He did not look upon the plan of Hon. Gentleme❑ opposite as being the production of a Salon or Lyon-gni. It was practicable to devise a plan of Reform which would prove safe, and give satisfaction to the country. He thought that Members might be found with out the entire disfranchisement of any boroughs ; and that the annihilation of the charters might he avoided ; that every borough might be still allowed to participate in the election of Members. In short, he protested against ache. Jule A, as much because it might become a precedent for more important spoliation, as for the sake of the boroughs themselves ; and he was of opinion that in the partial disfranchisement of a sufficient number of boroughs, the glaring injustice of violent spoilation might be obviated ; while the new constituencies in towns and counties would be provided for. Sir J. Hobhouse, Mr. C. Grant, Sir C. Wetherell, Mr. T. Duncomhe, and other Hon. Members, rose, but Mr. T. DUNCOMBE first caught the Speaker's eye, and proceeded.—The lion. Baronet had alluded to what he had said on a former evening as to the creation of Peers. The question that now arose was not as to the fare of the Bill in that House, but i❑ the other House of Parliament. The Hon. Baronet had spoken of revolutions; he had wandered in different parts of the world, where he would ❑ot follow him, and had brought forward historical facts on the subject; but the Hon. Baronet seemed to forget that a revolution in the minds of men had taken place in this country.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The people had now awoke from their dream, and were no longer to he imposed upon.—(Laughter.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite would have been glad had the people still remained igno rant ; but they could no more impose upon the people.—(Hear, and laughing.) Hon. Members might sneer and taunt the people.—(Cries of " No, no.") He would repeat they might sneer and taunt.—(No, no, and laughter.) He would repeat the sneers and taunts to the people.—(No, no.) He would repeat the sneers and taunts offered by Hon. Members opposite to the people. (Cries of " No," mingled with roars of laughter.) He supposed that the sneers and taunts came from that side the House—from those Hon. Members who conceived that the middle and lower classes of society had no right to have a voice in political affairs. With respect to the creatio❑ of Peers, he begged to offer a word. The ques tion was, whether the Reform Bill was so important in itself as to justify Ministers in the creation of such an ad ditional number of Peers as should secure its passing.— (Hear.) Against the obstinacy of some, the folly of others, and the episcopal conspiracy of a third party, it was the duty of Ministers to protect the country, by ad vising the exercise of the Royal prerogative, and thus avert the danger which must otherwise ensue from a se cond rejection of the Bill.—(Cries of " Heir, hear.") If it was as was said, the intention of the House of Lords to defeat the object of tie present Bill by means of mutila tion, and if by so doing they refused to preserve them selves, they must not hereafter complain if Peers were created to compel them to that which would ultimately be as essential a benefit to them as to the rest of the com munity. In conclusion, he would say that the Lords would do well to recollect the words of Burke, who had said that the people would no longer submit to bad go vernment because their ancestors had suffered worse ; that they would no longer tolerate hoary-headed abuses, which could neither inspire reverence nor acquire respect.— (Much cheering.) Sir C. WETHERELL said that notwithstanding all the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, he alight rest as sured that it was only when the great Kalends arrived that Peers would be created, and not till then.—(Hear.) He would undertake to convince, not the Hon. Member for Hertford, for that would be a hopeless task, but the other Members of that House, that a more gross viola tion of the Constitution, that a more gross exercise of the Royal prerogative, could not be made than that of creating Peers—a proceeding which the Hon. Member appeared to think was correct and proper.—(Cheers.) They hail heard of schedule A and of schedule B in that House until they were sick of both one and the other of them—(A laugh ) and he should not, therefor e, press those schedules upon their attention, but lie wo 141 give them a schedule of the Peers created already by the present Government—the Gentlemen who had been—be would not say transported to the House of Lords—(A laugh)—but who hid gone from their seats in the House of Commons to take their places in the House of Peers. He should only premise that he had not made this schedule himself. There was Lord Saumarez, number one ; there was Lord Cloncurry, number two ; Dinorben, number three. Indeed the list was so nu merous that it would take some time to tick off their names iu the Blue Book—(A laugh)—and, as in keeping the num bers, he might possibly err, perhaps the Noble Lord (Althorp) would make the response of the number to each name as he called it.—(Much laughter.) There was Templetnore, and then Seagrave, Mostyn, Wenlock, Poltimore, Panmure, Hamilton, Ludlow, Dun more, Chaworth, Kenlis, Dovor, Rosse, Clements, Sefton, Fingal, and Kilmarnock. If all these were not sufficient to satisfy the Hon. Member, he would only say that large must be his appetite.—(A laugh.) There was another name, however—and, though last, not least—he meant a Noble and Learned Friend of his, Lord Brougham and Vaux, who though possessed of these conjunct titles, yet was hut a single individual Peer.—(A laugh.) Those Noble Lords having done their duty in the House of Corn • mons, and having voted many of them in favour of the Reform Bill, are then sent into the House of Lords, where they again support the same Bill, he supposed upon the principle that it could not be amiss to do a righteous act twice over.—(Much laughter.) The lion. Member, however, asserted that the Ministry must make more Peers ; but he would ask how many more were to be created, and how was it to be done? He was not so clever at metaphor as the Hon. Member for Caine (Mr. Macaulay), but he would try his hand at an appropriate nne on the present °cession. They had all, doubtless, often seen a groom or a coachman casting trusses of straw into the loft of astable with a pitchfork; and if they had, they hail then no exemplification of the mode in which Peers were to be pitchforked into the House of Lords.— ( Laughter and cries of" Oh.') How would Lord Dinorben or Lord Panmure, or Lord Mostyn, like to be thus pitch forked ? If such a step were to be taken it would, is effect, be degrading the Peers into tools and instruments of despotic power, and sinking them as the Peers of France were sunk in the time of the revolution, to a state of slavery and imbecility. The Hon. Member had said that B irons bold should be sent into the House, who would do their duty. Did he remember that they had already sent 20 B .rons bold, and that they must have 60 more of these heroes of Runnymede at least ?—(Continued laugl.ter and cheers.) He knew not whether or not Hon. Members bad seen the papers of the day, in which it was held forth that the head of the Government was, jade-like, flinching from his duty, and that he required to be spurred on to the creation of Peers. He did not know whether Peers were or were not to be ereated, but he so far doubted the possibility of such an event, that he hid postponed his notice of motion upon the subject, which he should not have done if lie thought the making of a new batch of Peels was a matter seriously in contemplation.—(Hear.) Such a measure would, as he had already stated, be a gross violation of the Constitution. He had, on a f ormer occa. sion, heard his Learned Friend, the Attorney-General, contend that it was within the prerogative of the Crown to suspend the issue of a writ for any particular borough it pleased ; but he would dare him to get up in his place and maintain that the creation of Peers to carry a particular question was consistent with the principles of the Constitution. No one of the acts of tyranny adopted by James the Second, and for which he had been expelled from the throne of these kingdoms, could be compared in atrocity to this of creating Peers for the open and avowed purpose of ex- . . inguishing the free agency of the House of Lords..— Cheers.) He should not then eater int , ) any explana . tion its to the substance of the Bill of Rights; but he should observe that the complaint against James IL w a s that he had suspended the laws in contravention of the Bill of Rights. Now, he would ask if thus creating Peers to cal ry a particular measure was not a suspension of the laws of the land ?—(Rear, hear.) Jam es 11. had sent to the Sheriffs throughout the kingdom, telling them to re!urn Members to the House ~f Commons favourable to his views, which was, in effect, packing a House of Commons. Now he wished to ask if it would not be a still more flagrant packing of the House of Peer► if a num ber of new ones were to be at once created with a view to the success of a Ministerial project ?—(Cheers.) The Bill of Rights also guaided against the packing of Juries ; but he would leave it even to Lieutenant Drummond to deter- mine whether sending Aleinbere to the House of Peers for the purpose of carrying the Reform Bill was not in effect packing a House of Lords.—(A laugh.) Dou ham Hon. Members would remember the impeachment of Lord Oz- ford for creating Peers under nearly similar circumstances ; and they would also remember that he escared, not becau,e the offence was not one of great magnitude, but because he admitted that some one was certainly in fault, but that he was not that pei son. Now, suppose the Noble Lord at the head of the present Government were to be similarly impeached, should he venture upon a creation of Peers, could he say " I am not the adviser of this mea sure ?" On whom, then, should they cast the blame ? Was it on the Lord Privy Se.il ?—(Cheers from th e Op position benches.) Or, if not, would the Noble Lord op posite (Althorp) say, " In me convertite telum 9"— (Loud and continued cheering.) Ttie Noble Lord might smile in self-security, knowing that no Peers would be made ; but he (Sir C. Wetherell) not knowing whether such a creation would or would not take place, must pro ceed in uncertainty. Could the advice to make Peers be imputed to Lord Brougham and Vaux ? That Noble Lord would fail buck aghast at the bare imputation.—(Cheers and laughter.) He would be almost doubled back at hear ing it.--(Cheers.) It was impossible to suppose that lie would consent to putting the blue wax to fifty or sixty new in an able article patent, in the face of what lie had wFitterl in the .Edinburylt Review, in which LI maintained that, through the means of this borough influence, cenflicte had been avoided between both Houses of Parliament.—( Hear. ) This was the strongest argument he had ever heard in sup• port of the existence of nomination boroughs, and be could never believe that after writing such an opinion, his Noble and Learned Friend could ever consent to affix the Great Seal of England to patents for the express pur pose of swamping and destroying the Peerage, and, he might add, the Crown also. The Noble Lord would re member that Lite:ye ecriptea manent ; and though be bad not gone so far as to condemn the Bill, which had ori ginated with other parties, yet he had avowed that borough demolition formed no part of his plan.—(Hear.) He hoped the Noble Lord would not retract from what he had written, and spoken also on more than one occasion, and that he would not consent to abuse the conscience of his master by adopting a plan which had received unequivocal denunciation from his own writing, as well as from bis own speeches, uttered on more occasions than one. He would, for the sake of argument, assume that Peers were to be made, and he would then ask the Government if they were aware of the case of Lord-Treasurer Middlesex? Their friends out of doors were bullying them, and driving them at the point of the bayonet, the spur not being deemed sufficient; but they would do well to consider that case. He would not attempt to lay down the extent to which the power of the Peers might be carried, but they all knew that the House of Commons had power to expel any Member for a crime disgraceful to his cha racter. The writers upon our Constitution asserted the right of the Peers similarly to expel a Member from their body ; and this right was established by the expulsion of Lord Middlesex for the misap propriation of the moneys he received as Treasurer. Ile would put the case of Lord Grey after making a batch of Peers to carry the Reform Bill. Though Lord Oxford was not expelled, it was because he denied his guilt; but it might happen that if the Noble Lord and his fifty or sixty Peers were impeached, that consequences might come upon which he would not hazard an opinion. He would call their attention to what took place in France under the sway of Charles X. Sixty Peers were created for a par ticular purpose, but when the revolution came they were at once driven out. If persons could be got to degrade themselves by accepting the Peerage under such circum stances, he should ouly say they deserved to be treated as ignominious vassals, as tools submitting to ignominy, which fell meritedly upon their heads. Who, he would ask, was it that would have those Peers made? The declaimers against nomination boroughs!!—(Loud cheer ing)—the boroughs which the Hon. Member for Caine had described as being the cholera of the Constitution.— (Hear, hear.) Yet these declaimers against nomination boroughs were the very persons to support and suggest the propriety of sending Peers to the House of Lords as nomi nees of the Crown—(Continued cheering)—some of them going there after giving written cbligations to vote as directed by the Ministry ; and all under a promise, or with an understanding, that their votes should be similarly subservient to the order of the Governrant.— (Cheers.) He assumed this to be the case, because such were the sole means by which they could be enabled to load themselves with ignominy, for ignominy it was to go into the House of Peers bound to act in accordance with the views of others, even if those views should be opposed to the better understanding of the parties.—(Much cheer ing.) Was there, he would ask, any man in or out of the House, who would have the'face to denounce nomination boroughs, and yet in the same breath, and in the face of that denunciation, consent to arm Ministers with a power far more direct than would be exercised through the means of those boroughs ?—(Loud and continued cheering.) He saw many Hon. Gentleman of great respectability on the other side of the House, who, under different circum stances, might, in their abstract capacity, be pitchforked into the House of Peers, but looking to their complacent countenances, he was led to believe that there was not one of them who would wish to be included in the list of the 30 or 40 Peers who were to bear the opprobrium, the disgrace, of carrying this violent, unconstitutional measure. Where the men were to come from who would be ready to do so he could not possibly say. He could not conceive that any Gentleman in that House would be disposed to forego the estimable character of an independent Member of Parliament for the degradation of a " Baron b a ld." (Loud cheers.) He felt convinced that from whatever quarter these Runnymede heroes were to come, it could not be from the other side of the House. The Minister who should attempt to offer such violence to the Constitution would act with the imbecility of an old woman, but he (Sir C. Wetherell) would rather com pare him to a Tarquin. But whether he might be re garded as an old woman or as a devastating spoliator, one thing was quite obvious, namely, that the attempt could not be carried into execution unless the Bill of Rights were violated and the King placed in the same light as James 11. In fact, no one infraction of the laws and Con stitution of the land would be equivalent with that of sending Peers into the House of Lords for the put pose of intimidating, subduing, annihilating, the independent agency of one of the three estates of the realm.--(Cheers.) Surely no Member of that House could for a moment think of deserting his duty as an independent Member of Parliament. That man must he a base and recreant de loaf-twat who should neglect to bring under the immediate consideration of the House so gross and glaring a violation of the Constitution as the creation of Peers for such a purpose. He would tell the Hon. Member for Hertford that some small difficulties were to be get over before the House of Lords could be forced into the second reading of the Bill. While upon this subject, he could not help ad verting to the recent landing of the French at Ancona. That event was a natural consequence of the Reform Bill. —(Cheers and laughter.) He would ask, did gentlemen recollect who it was that had urged a recommendation upon the Bishops of the Protestant Church for the pur pose of influencing their votes in the House of Lords? Was it not a Minister of the Crown? Lord ALTHORP rose to order. He considered it to bs quite irregular for any Hon. Member to advert to what had taken place in the House of Lords. Sir C. WETHERELL admitted that he was wrong in point of order : but he might be permitted to advert to what had occurred elsewhere, no matter what place that might be. Did Hon. Gentlemen recollect what was lately done in a certain country in which there was an in dependent Parliament ? Did they recollect what was done for the purpose of intimidating the Protestant Bishops of that country ?—(Cheers.) It was upon record that the Prime Minister of a free country (he did not say England) told the Spiritual Lords of a free Parliament that it was high time they should " set their house in order." Tae same historian who narrated this fact asserted, at the same tune, that the house of one of the Protestant Bishops was set in order in a very odd sort of way. The house of that Bishop was demolished, and his manuscripts were all de stroye.l:—( Loud cheers.) A certain Prime Minister of another country, a gentleman named Casimir Perier, seeing what was done by his brother Prime Minister of a different State, very naturally said to himself, " Well, I shall send fifteen hundred men to the Bishop of Rome to assist him in keeping his house in order."—(Cheers and laughter.) He (Sir C. Wetherell) contended that all the French had dune in Italy did not differ in any respect (ruin what others had done in a certain country which should be nameless. He maintained that in consequence of the Reform Bill the French had availed themselves of the power to do that which otherwise they would not have ventured to have done. He insisted that the Re form Bid had thrown this country into confusion, had supplanted all confidence, and stimulated and excited the French to acts which, under other circumstances, they never would have presumed to attempt. How did it happen that in this new scheme of Reform, the interests of the West Indies and the East Indies were altogether lost sight of ? Our colonies in neither hemisphere were to have any Representatives. Nu Member was to be returned for the Ganges, rich as that river was rendered by the vast resources of the region through which it flawed. How very different was it with a river much nearer home ! Then, well might he say un happy Ganges!--happy Tyne!—(Laughter.) Bat he would ask, would anyone for a moment imagine that this country would be able to preserve her relations with her colonies under the new order of things, unless certain per sons were returned to Parliament as the organs and con servators of colonial interests?--(Here the Hon. and Learned Gentleman experienced some :momentary inter ruption from the gallery to the right of the Chair.) He perceived that some individual in the gallery was disposed to mirth on the present occasion. Now he could only say that there were in certain places of amusement galleries to which persons might be admitted at two shillings, one shilling, or even less; but he hoped never to see any gal lery of that kind constructed within the walls of St. Stephen's Chapel. The effect of this Bill would be to se parate Great Britain from the whole world, and thus re alize what was Said in one of the Eclogues of Virgil-- penitus toto di v i sos orbe Britan " He would not trespass upon the indulgence of the House with any further observations. Ha had stated, with con fidence, his decided opinion that in hastening through this House the inimical, antisocial, and unconstitutional Re• form Bill, its supporters did that which must ultimately take from the Crown its ancient possessions, both in this country and in the colonies. The ATTORNEY-GEN- ERAL then rose, and began by observing that in no gallery to which admission might be had even at the minimum price, could such entertain ment be found as that AQW created by his Hon. and Learned Friend, who hail set at defiance all the unities of time and action. His Hon. and Learned Friend, in his excursive wanderings had now gone to Thebes, now to Athens, and studiously avoided all topics except that which was the subject of debate.—(A Laugh.) Considering how very unexpectedly his Hon. Friend the Member for Hertford had started the hare about the Peerage in the thickets surrounding his neighbourhood, he (the Attorney- General) could not help feeling some surprise bow his Hon. and Learned Friend, who had just sat down, could have possessed:himself of the list of all those persons who had been recently elevated to the Peerage, and given to the House such a running commentary upon them. His Hon. and Learned Friend came forward to offer what the House would know how to appreciate Hs his sincere compliment to his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. He first expressed his doubt as to whether his Noble and Learned Friend was not the writer of a certain article in the Edinburgh Review, and he took occasion to con vert that doubt into a fact in a most extraordinary mm ner. But this he (the Attorney-General) well knew, that if the Lord Chancellor was the writer of that or any other article, he would he the very last man to shrink from any responsibility attaching to it. If the responsi ble Ministers of the Crown had done any aet in which they were not warranted, let them be fairly brought to an account for their conduct, but let not the Crown itself be placed in danger.—(Cheers.) The language of his Hon. Friend and of others in that House was applied, not to his Majesty's Ministers but to a single individual, who, from his illustrious station and well-known devotion to the laws and Constitution of the country, ought to be spared from any imputations of the kind. The attack was made upon a personage whose conduct defied all assault— ._ Areiva quern non poswnt phalange,: aternere." Allusion was made to the case of James 11., and the im peachment of Lord Oxford. It was well known that Lord Oxford stood the brunt of that impeachment; so would the present Ministers, if any proceeding of the kind were instituted against them.—(Cheers.) Lord Oxford, however, made a mean and despicable defence, and sacri ficed the interests of his Royal mistress. No such defence would be made by the present Ministers, for they felt their public conduct to be above reproach. Words of the most reprehensible description were used in reference to an Il lustrious Personage. He was told, in the language of Scripture, that, on the day he should give his assent to the Reform Bill, he would see the hand-writing on the wall, and behold that as the day on which he should cease to reign. Was not this the language of menace, used in the most offensive manner ? Talk of the Bill of Rights, for sooth ! For his own part, he would not waste the time of the House by touching upon that topic. He would ask whether any Honourable Member who represented in that House any of the boroughs classed in schedule A, had any right to raise a question about the prerogative of the Crown to create Peers ?—(Hear, hear.) He contended that the Crown possessed the right, and it was most inde cent, most unconstitutional, and most disorderly, to ques tion it. It had been said that the trade and commerce of the country was paralysed by the suspense and delay in the settlement of the Reform Bill. That there was some foundation for that observation he did not mean to deny. Doubtless great inconvenience had arisen from the delay of the settlement of this question. lie was not now going to inquire to whom the delay of this measure, and the suspense which was the result of that delay, should be charged.—(Hear, hear.) He should only observe that the observation did not apply to the merits of the Bill now that it had arrived to the third reading.—(Hear, hear.) But then it was said that the Tyne was well represented, and that the Ganges was left without representation. A new light hid been thrown in on his Hon. and Learned Friend (Sir C. W'etherell) on this point. It appeared to have been quite forgotten by those who argued fur the ex pediency of colonial representation, that under the admira ble and perfect system which had hitherto existed, and which the opponents of this Bill were so anxious should continue unaltered, the colonies had nothing but virtual representation.—(Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) It also appeared to be forgotten that it was during the existence of that excellent system of virtual re cporeusnetnryta.ti,oinftetrhaatllththeeAdite discussions colonies mwhich w had er t e lost aken p t l o ac t e lLis after the principle had been discussed on three several oc casions upon motions for a second reading—after the pro test of the Right Hon. Member for Aldborough (Mr. Croker), comprehending all the objections of that Right Hon. Gentleman and . his friends to the principle and details of the Bill, he did expect that the discussion on the third reading would have taken a very different turn. He had expected that Hon. Members opposed to the measure would have argued that, although the Bill had been read a second time, it ought not to be read a third time. He had heard no such arguments, ho svever, from any gen tleman who had addressed the House. He did not say that the Bill was perfect—no measure of the kind could be perfect.—(Hear, hear.) But the objections were quite wonderful for their" paucity and trivial character. The Bill was not so much the Bill of Ministers as of the House of Commons. After the appeal to the constituent body on the question of Reform, and the manner in which that appeal had been answered, the House became the parent of the Bill ; hut when it was asserted that the majority came in pledged blindly to support the Bill, he niu*t be allowed to dissent from that proposition. The Ministers were outvoted on the tenant-at-will clauses, and he was glad they were, for he considered that the country gen tlemen now stood pledged not to interfere with the conscientious votes of their tenants by ejecting them. It was said in the course of the debate that it would be a severe reflection on our ancestors to say that corrupt sales of seats in that House, had been made by borough proprie tors. The Catholic Relief Bill, and the repeal of the Test Acts, according to this doctrine, were also reflections on our ancestors, and on our near ancestors too.—(A laugh.) In fact, no improvement could be made in any of the ex isting institutions which did not convey such a reflection on those who had gone before ; and the Right Hon. Biroi,et, the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel), had rendered himself liable to such an imputation by hit amendments of t ,, e criminal law.—( Heir, hear.) There were some objections made in the course of the debate, which were equally applicable to any proposition fur Reform, and which he (the Attorney-General) confessed he had on expected to hear. It was said that the Nabob of Arcot ought to have Members in that House to represent him. If seats were to be sold, there was no reason, certainly, why the Nabob of Arcot might not have his representa tive ; and, on the saute principle, Don Miguel, the loved Ferdinand, and all the other potentates in the world, might be represented in that House, and the Gangs might be better represented than the Tyne. Great regret was expressed by one Hon. Member that the religion of Bratnah was not represented ; and he supposed that, ac cording to this liberal doctrine, the humane practice of burning widows should have an advocate in that House, and the use of the scourge in the West Indies considered as the symbol of freedom, whilst the Orders of Council were treated as a Russian ukase. He denied that the principle of Reform had brought on excitement. Before any measure of Reform was introduced the public mind was in a state of great turbulence and excitement, and that excitement was tranquillised by the introduction of the Reform Bill, which acted like a charm. It was the op position which produced the excitement on this question— an opposition on the part of those who were considered by the people as interested judges deciding in their own cause.—(Hear, hear.) Another objection to the Bill had been that it was an untried scheme, and, there fore, should not be passed ; but that was one of the objec tions which applied equally to every measure of Reform. But then it was said that the Reform might have been gradual. He put it to any reasonable man, however, if the peace of the country would have been better secured if Reform had been doled out piecemeal What would this he but to leave the question fur ever unsettled ?—(Hear, hear.) It was said the country would have been satisfied with a less measure ; but those who used that argument hail never described the measure they were prep ,red to bring forward in lieu of the present. It was impossible, therefore, to adopt a measure the principle of which they could not know, and were at a loss to conceive, as a sub sti ute for one which had met with the universal approba tion of the people of England. That this measure had obtained the approbation of a great majority of the people of England he had expected would not now be denied. Those who opposed the Bill said that House already repre sented the people of England. Of the Members of that House, then (deducting — those who were interested for places affected by the Bill, and which they defended), how large a majority had voted in favour of the measure. As to its probable effect he had no doubt that in every fair and reasonable sense of the word, it would be a final mea sure. He did not think that popular feeling would come, as had been said, with a force like that of the waves of the sea, and make further encroachments on our existing in stitutions.--(Hear, hear.) Such a result would be pre vented by a generous concession in the first instance. When it was said that the measure would not be final, he wished to ask why it should nut be final ? He who wore the Crown, could not be anxious that it should not be final. Ministers who exercised the power of the Clown must be anxious that it should be final ; and the middle and the scot king classes, having seen the effects in other countries of even the most justifiable revo lution, had been taught a lesson which they were intelli gent enough to learn, and could not easily forget, and which must make them desire that this measure should be final. He believed that much of the opposition to this measure bad Proceeded from ignT.a9(4; of the feelings of `l , ll •r people, and that this ignorance of the highet e!a se: was to be ascribed to the state of the representation. The only knowledge the higher classes poseeseed, as to the feelings of the lower classes, was that obtained by contact with those voters who were ready to barter their privileges for the basest consideration. In conclusion, he cont,n led that the measure now before the House, would not only satisfy the people, but establish the Constitution on a per manent basis. It only remained now for the lion eof Commons to read it a third time, arid send it up to the other House with a majority which would show how much the Representatives of the people appreciated the measure. The majority, he repeated, had not acted blindly on this occasion, for they had improved the Bill in many respects since it was first introduced. By passing it, he was convinced the law would lie more re spected and the Constitution better secured. The Legis lature, by adopting this measure, would act on the only real conservative principle—the benefit of the people ; and, if it was carried, he hoped and trusted it would tend to establish and preserve the Constitution of this country in grandeur and strength to the most remote period.__. (The Honourable and Learned Gentleman then sat down amidst cheers.) Mr. PERCEVAL then rose and addressed the House, from the back benches, in an emphatic tone and with solemn gesture—Men, do ye sit here?_(Laughter.) In whose name do ye sit here? In His name, at the mention of whom the titter and the sneer came forth from among ye: and yet ye sit here in utter forgetfulness of Him from whom alone all counsels, wisdom, and light have come.— (Oh, oh; Order.) Think ye.—(Laughter, confusion, and cries of " Chair, and adjourn")—l say to this House, do ye expect that any blessing will come to this nation:—do ye expect that the greatest of all works, the work of esta blishing the roots and basis of the Constitution, the greatest work that human counsels and the wisdom of man was ever called upon in this nation to perform? do ye expect, for one instant, that in utter forgetfulness of all that the has taught to bear in mind ? do ye expect any blessing on the labour of man in such a work as this—who ac knowledge Him not in the work, who think not of Him in the work, who sit day after day, and night after night in Council, without bestowing one thought on Him ? Ex cept the Lord build the house, their Wiour is but lost who build it—except the watchman keep the city.— (Laugh ter. ) Do ye say for one instant that your work can be blessed ? How stands the account of this House with their God at this time ?—(Adjourn.) How stands, I say, the account of this House with their God, let me ask ye. Twice have ye been called upon—twice have the Members of this House been called upon to humble them selves before God, and to seek the blessings of Him in con trition and confess;on from whom alone a blessing—(The remainder of the Hon. Member's sentence was lost in the confusion, arising from a number of Members rising up and quitting the House)—Aye ! depart when God is named. Ye would have staid in this House till five or six in the morning had not His name been mentioned. Mr. HUNT thought that an adjournment was the ob ject of the Hon. Gentleman, which he would, therefore, move. 1 Lord ALTHORP here rose and said, if an adjournment was the object of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, he should not oppose it. Mr. PERCEVAL—No, I have no intention to move an adjournment ; but I tell the House that they would have sat till five o'clock to hear any man who did nut name God ; and now let the House sit down ar i d h ear me.—(014.) I stand here to warn men of the judgment of G o d th a t i s com ing on them ; to warn t h em of the judgment of God that is at hand. Do y e t hi n k I stand here this House in their car eer ? N o, I stand here in reliance on Him, in whose n ame an d b y whose despised with his nay t ownnis t en in n my o wn strength to stop th e fi ve or mix hundred m love, I implore ye to list en to me for a moment ; ye may cast off the appeal, but I w ill make it. I stand here not the House strength have r twice f been called on to hu m bl e t h emse l ves b efore God.—(Question.) How did they get rid of that question in the first instance ? By the subterfuge of miserable formalities, Mark how their God caused them to show forth the utter contempt of his name which existed among them—the scorn of God which raged in the midst of ye. Ye had a Bill brought into this House touching this matter, and when it was simply proposed to ye that 3e should insert in that Bill a simple declaration that the scourge to which it re ferred came by Divine Providence, ye cast out the name of God. I will tell the House what is their Gode It is the people, whom they exalt in the place of their God', and before whom they bow down and worshipped with • the most abject and degraded worship. Now mark, in this Bill the name of God was not to be mentioned. A MEMBER under the gallery rose to order. The Bill alluded to had been passed. Mr. PERCEVAL—I apprehend what I say is as fit to be considered as any question that cart be brought forwar4: I will show the House a reason why they can expect no prosperity to attend their labours. How can they after such idolatries? For the sake of tile people of England ye rejected the name of your God—to please them that name was not to be mentioned ; but in the Scotch Bill— because the people wished it—at the bidding of the people of Scotland—because they raised their voice in its favour, it was inserted. No such voice was raised in England. This, therefore, shows that the notice of Divine Provi dence was introduced in the Bill, not for the recognition of God, but in obedience to the mandate Of the people. So much for this House. I have shewn to this House how their account stands with God. Twice did they refuse to humble themselves before him, and now those that profess to have instituted this Fast have not done it in the true spirit that should govern such a step—they have not ap proached the Lord with that humiliation which, amidst the deep and awful calamity which impends over this land, should have marked their approach ; with them it is but a solemn mockery—they have nut in their hearts humili ated themselves before their God, and he will not accept the proffered service at their hands ; he will not be mocked —the searcher of hearts will not accept that which is false. He knows full well that it was nut from their hearts they gave that counsel to the King—he knows full well that they did not approach him in contrition, humiliation, and repentance ; there was not one amongst them to hum- t i a , ble himself before God—not one advanced towards the Throne of the Almighty in a spirit of penitence for their iniquities, neither did they look at nor estitnate as it de served, that dreadful disease which comes to us as the scourge of an offended G d, which comes to us in the out pourings of his right eo u s indignation—yes, the s pi r i t i n which he is approached is a mockery, and he will not away with it—there shall be woe, and sorrow, and weeping, and gnashing of teeth. It is too late, perhaps —you might have averted this calamity if you had turned to your Goel early, and with spontaneous worship the Al mighty would have been appeased ; but as it is, I fear we are cast away —there is a curse on it—there is a curse on the land —there has been a curse upon us from the commencement of that proceeding. [Here an Hon. Member near Mr. Perceval addressed a few words to him, which were not audible in the gallery.] No, I shall—l shall go on—l have committed myself to this task in much prayer, and I will not be turned away by man from that wherein 1 have devoted myself to God. I tell this House the land will be desolate. Yet a little while, and ye shall lament and howl, for I tell you the land will be desolate. The pestilence which has hitherto been held in by a long-suffering God shall be let loose, and I tell you the sword will follow it ; but do I utter these words of tnyself? No, they are the words of God. I tell the House more—the Church of this land shall be laid low —you may see its fall coming—it is corrupt before God, and has played the harlot with strangers, and the arm of flesh shall smite her; but he will show the vanity of an arm of flesh opposed to the righteous retribution of an offended God. Then will your eyes sae that which your hearts now gainsa y . Trouble not your:el ves a b out this Bill, it i s y our doom. I say the Bill is your doom. You may think me mad—You may think me beside myself; but you shall soon know whether I speak of myself, or utter the words of truth and of God. I tell you the whole thing is but a mockery. You have sworn to be the faithful servants of the King ; but look into your own hearts, and if you have any self-knowledge, you will see that you care not for the King. You think you have caught him as in a net; but he is tire Lord's anointed, and shall escape. Mr. SHAW hoped his Hon Friend would allow him to say that continuing his observations further would be n effect inducing the House to act contrary to the principle ,if his own motion. He was in effect preventing them from observing that day in a becoming manner, which it hid been so much an object with him to have observed as a day of fast and humiliation. It was his (Mr. Shaw's) opinion that they ought not to sit any longer there as a House of Commons on the morning of that day, and he should therefore leave the House—not that he had any ob. ction to bear the nettle of God mentioned in that House. He real . y• thought that Iris duty required him not to sit :here any longer.—(Mr. Shaw immediately left the House.) Mr. PERCEVAL made a few observations in reference to what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member who had spoken last, but in a low tone of voice. He then went on to say—They may think they have caught the King in a net ; but, as 1 have already told them, ire is he Lord's anointed—his heart is in the hand of the Lord, and they shall not hold him. Though they think they have him within tin it power, they may be assured they deceive themselves; for those who ap proach the Lord in a spirit of mockery, do but work their own ruin; but, however, they may annulate, there are