The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-19 00:00:00

',Alla not be more regular for the Learned Lord to bring in a Bill, than it would be for his Noble Friend to do so. But his Noble Friend said, if the Learned Lord chose to bring it in, he wo•.:id not interfere, unless he should see him relapsing into the _inaction of his predecessor, and in that case he hoped would in -tuft:l:o6 The _Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, it struck him t - 'l4t the course proposed by the Noble Lord was not that "frr-kh was usual in that House. It was better that the Bill st7.-u.i.d be brought in by those who had opportunities of con -A«.itiag together, than by those who were not very likely to con_ :cur in their .views. He thought it might be better that the liobie Lord should withdraw his motion; but this was asked as rematter of courtesy, and not claimed as a right. Lord A. HAMILTON said he had no objection to his name being left out: He did not wish to be connected with the 'bringing in of the Bill. All that he wanted was, that the Learned Lord should let the present motion be carried, and take .upon himself to bring in the Bill if the House consented to its 'being introduced. Mr. TIERNEY remarked, his Noble Friend desired but a f.eslge that the subject should be promptly attended to by the .4.ord Advocate, by the Housigiving him leave to bring in the The Gentlemen opposite answered this by saying," No, • r.o ;—what you ask cannot'bo agreed to—you are on the wrong side of the House. If yoir , come over here and make your mo tion, it will be all - very well,!' , In‘fact, the case was this. The mez.stire was admitted on all hands to be a good one, but it was iaot to be allowed to be brought in, because the proposition had. '.:'<ianated with his Noble Friend, Mr. PEEL submitted to the House that the regular course wax for the party 'who introduces a Bill to move for leave to bring it in. This Bill, which the Learned Lord had in prepa ;ation, might not follow the title of that of the Noble Lord. In the conversation which had passed some little difference had ap pered between them—the one wished for an immediate,—the other, for a gradual abolition of the offices in question. When his Learned Friend said he would introduce a Bill, was it fair to throw that Suspicion on him, which agreeing to this mo tion would convey ? The point was one of little import. Brice, but. he could see no reason for deviating from the usual coarse. The SPEAKER remarked, the rules of that House were so wisely framed, that a departure from them for convenience, ge nerally produced a greater inconvenience than it had been at tempted to avoid. This was experienced in the present case, from the length to Which the conversation had extended.. He was now obliged to interfere. His, apology to the House for letting it go so far was this—he had supposed the question put by_the Nobly. Lord to have been misunderstood. , , LorclA. HA m fur& said, he would not divide theilonse, tit he would let the motion be negatived. ,Mr. BROUGHAM suggested that a negative on the present r.Otion might throw a difficulty in the way Of the bringing 4i Gf the Learned Lord's Bill. _ _ ~ The SPEAKER remarked if the present motion were nega t,i7ed, it could not prevent a similar motion from being offered when the House next assembled. A Bill once introduced and thrown out could not be brought in.again that Session, but the question now before the House was only as to time, and the =ion might be repeated. The motion was then negatived. Lord A. HA \IILTON moved an Address to the King, payed his Majesty to direct returns of the Commissioned Courts of Scotland, with list - of the Commissioners, Clerks and Procurators, to be laid before' the House. • The motion was agreed to. RENEWAL Of' THE AGRICULTURAL COMMITTEE. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY having already troubled the House with his view of the present situation of the t:tgticultnral classes, would not detain them now in moving, that the Report made in the last Session of Parliament by that Com mittee should again be referred to their consideration, toga iher with the Petitions presented to the House on the subject of t-gricultural distress in the last and present Sessions. He wished to avoid saying any thing that might provoke a de bate at this time on a subject of such complexity and im pertance, as he thought the question could be much more ad vantageously discussed when brought before the House by the report of a Committee of their own body. He then moved that the report of the Committeo on Agricultural distress, with the Petitions presented in the last and present Sessions of Parlia ment, be referred to a Select Committee to be appointed to in quire into the allegations thereof, and report their opinions to the House. Mr. GOOCH wished to offer a few observations. He was - desirous of correcting some of the misrepresentations which had taken place respecting him at several public meetings. He had been described, not by name perhaps, but still so that he wes understood to be alluded to, as having brought forward this subject last year, in collusion with the Government, in order to prevent inquiry. If he had acted such a part, he semuld have thought himself unworthy to represent that county which sent him to Parliament, or any other. Ilaving been •• .pit there to represent one of the most agricultural counties in F.ngland, he had believed it to be his duty when he saw their table covered with Petitions, signed by numerous members of the yeomanry of the country, all describing the existence of cre unuSual scene of distress, to call the attention of the House to it. Though little, qualified to perform such. tt task, he.had determined on taking it up as nobody else did. He wished for that inquiry which had taken piece. but which, he was sorry to .ay, had done little good. He had, in the first instance, :'nought it right to ascertain his own strength, and the strength cf those opposed to him. Feeling no wish to raise the landed :'.:crest to the injury of other interests, he had not anticipated Acch opposition from the commercial and manufacturing in. tereats. After consulting those connected with those interests, he. then went to the Noble Marquis to ask what the Governs Gent proposed to do. The Noble Marquis told him that Mi ainters would not oppose a motion for a Committee, as they felt for the situation of the agricultural classes as much as he sik•lr. Gooch) could do. He (Mr. Gooch) then said to the I Noble Marquis, he was rather surprised that with these feelings they had not come forward with some measures for their relief. 'The Noble Marquis said, that, as a Minister, he had no right i ebring forward a measure unless he could offer a remedy, as e wished not to hold out a hope to the country which might not be realised. But, he added, he would willingly attend the Committee, and give every aid in his power to the prosecution of the inquiry. That pledge, in the Committee, the Noble Niar .:-.is had most fully redeemed. He had stated thus much to arses what his conduct had been, and he hoped he alieulti got be again misrepresented. Now, with respect to the eephset of the Committee, he would 'say, that to him it e.ppeared worse than useless. This might seem strange, coming from the Chairman of the Committee from which the Report had emanated, but he believed that it had thrown dust in she people's eyes, Instead of opening them, teed that it would not afford them relief or any thine else. Peellaps he might be allowed a few words on what had fallen from the Noble Marquis on Friday. No man had more at heart • the a-elfare of the landed interest than the humble individual - oho then addressed the House. His duty, his inclination, and his interest, all led him that way. lie thought the statement of • 'C:4 Noble Marquis - (the Marquis of Londonderry) in many re spects most satisfactory. He b egged to congratulate the House• on the state of the finances of the country. It was a most jeratifying circumstance to find that we w e re in po s s e ssi on as clear sinking fund of more than 6,0tw001. For the gene ra: welfare of the. country it was necessary that public credit eh.culd be secured.—(Hear, hear I)—Nothing could tend more to the relief of the country than thus improving and strengthen. ih e e public credit.—(dear I)—But when he came. to speak of what the Noble Lord had said on the subject of .Agricultural r.'ietress, he should not speak truth if he ware to state it to be • h,e opinion that it would prove satisfactory to the Landed in terest. He thought they . would be discontented, because 77:G7T was not done. But it was one' thing to say, that what • had been proposed was not sufficient, - and another to point out -.hat more ought to be done. He did not see what more could neer.e, but he was most anxious to see as large a diminution •of taxes as could be made consistent with the maintenance cc thte great interests of the country. The question then IsSeatne • cee of quantity. He was one of those who did not wish the herey.ertcai strength .of the army to be more diminished a but he - hieled for further reductions in the civil departments of both enrey and navy. When the estimates came before. the House, • - ;;OUld vote for such reductions as he thought would be aectece. When he looked at what had already been dene,• in tat course of the Session, he congratulated the • House on the ere:zee-which had been opened. He explained the circumstances in the last Session had frequently prevented him from lasing in his place in that House. He congratulated them on ears' had feoen from the Noble Marquis. He•hoped to COD t::::;.t . :02 would follow up what he had then stated, and lie im en;.sred all of the House at this important juncture to fore net party feeling, and bearing in mind those words which they .iseerd 30 often, " lay aside all prejudices and partial -.aces ::co;;," and unite with but one obiect—the good of their country. 2L - j. SIIELLI.:Y said, the Hon. Gentleman who had just ea. down seamed surnrieed to find bow rouelothe Noble Mar einaie had done. He also was surprised, but in a different way— he ras surprised to find how little the Noble. Marquis had done. `He thanked the Noble Marquis for taking off the Malt Duty, bet wes sorry to she him giving 3 ; 00,001. to that fallacy the sinking fund. He weald not dwell on this subject now, as a motion, or. Thursday, would bring the Sinking Food. befere , • else House. The diminution of taxation wee called for by the 'v ones Country, and in his opinion the Noble MerqUis, ire bole. -seeping up the Sinking Fund, protected the moni e d intereat the exeence of this agriculture of the country, and therefore he este tot satisfied. Mr. NVODEHOUSE rose to put it question to the Nobly Triccquis. which he had no doubt he would answer, but first he ofF:r a few words to enolain the principles wilicti.rgu iTt-.=.!- cis own conduct. He id not hesitate to declafethat in . view the subject the GoYz:nr.lctt.d4l. tot 60.ay.fEciently fat to relieve the landed interest, but he was equally free to say, that the measures they had devised, when iu the fair course of operation, seemed to him likely to prove extensively beneficial. He highly complimented an Honourable and Learned Gentleman and a Noble Lord for the view which they had taken of the Agricultural question, and proceeded to show how much happier the cultivator in England was than the culti vator in foreign parts,. where the former was a slave, or so op pressed by feudal exactions, that his state much resembled that of slavery. He had now a question to put, and the House, when he mentioned it, would recal a debate on the subject of prohibitory laws, the principal part of which lay between Mr. W. Elliot and !tar. Horner. Such a subject could not be in better hands. Mr. Homer contended, that where there was political danger, prohibitory laws were justifiable, and Mr. Elliot could not conceive that political danger could be consist ent with commercial safety. lie now wished to obtain a dis tinct answer from the Noble Marquis as to the part which Go vernment meant to pursue—the principle on which they meant to act. lie showed the importance of the questions by describ ing the Agricultural Distress now existing, and then called the attention of the House to the sentiments put forth in a former report of one of their Committees, which he regarded as a demi official document. The Honourable Member then stated that he understood a Right Honourable Gentleman on the floor ( %Ir. Huskisson) to be the author of the Report of the Agricul tural Committee, or at least that it had his full concurrence.— He begged the House to allow him to read some passages from that Report. Having done so, the Honourable Member in ferred that they were at variance with the Right Honourable Gentleman's declared opinions upon former occasions, and con tradictory in their own nature- His object was to know upon what principles they were to proceed. Ile believed that no one would attribute to him the wish of exciting angry discussion upon this topic ; but the deplorable state of necessity to which they were reduced rendered it imperative that something should be done without delay. He believed that no one doubted the talents of the Right Honourable- Gentleman below him, and every men - rust remember the celebrated peroration to his speech upon the Corn Bill, in which he called upon the House to pass it not as a measure favouring the fanner in particular, but cal culated to benefit the interests of all classes. He certainly did wish to hear these differences reconciled; and if, contrary to his intention, he had in any way misrepresented the Right Honourable Gentleman, no one could be more ready to be set right. Mr. DAVENPORT said, that as many Honourable Mem hers had delivered their opinions upon this important topic, he was anxious to state that he felt considerable disappointment at the statement of the Noble Marquis. When he heard of the flourishing state of the finances, he was of opinion that more relief ought to have been granted biotite reduction of taxation. He mutt Mao notice a mistake which the Noble ,111arquis had fallen into in the course. of that statement. He calculated that the farmer paid only five per cent. in taxes. - upon his out-goings, whereas in the county of Chester, which he (SP. Davenport) had the honour to represent, in dairies it was. 4s much as that upon, one article alone, namely, salt. If therecould be one tax more grievous and oppressive than another,it was that to which he bad just alluded. Mr. UURWEN said, that after what he had heard, he could not hope for much relief to the distress of the country from the labours of the present Session. Ile was friendly to the ap pointment of the original Committee, but he had been ex ceedingly disappointed in its results. He believed that no thing more could be expected Irons its re-appointment. What was now wanted was legislation; and he thought no one who knew the Noble Marquis would think him likely to shrink from the responsibility of measures which he might ap prove, and he and his colleagues ought to be prepared with measures upon a question of such vital importance to the coun try, without sending it at all to the Committee. No one could nave attended the last Committee with more regularity than the Noble Lord, .and no one could have evinced a greater dis position to hear every thing that was offered upon tite subject; and he, therefore, must be well acquainted with the difficulty of coming to a conclusion under such circumstances. It was quite clear, that with a Committee, the whole Session would be passed without any definitive measures being effected ; and he would ask whether it ought to be left to chance for a bad harvest to throw open the ports, and cause the importation of as much foreign The as was equal to eight months consumption of the country? The Noble Lord said, :that the proportion of taxation to the produce of the land was five per cent. ; and therefore he gave them the relief of one-half per cent. by re pealing the additional Malt Tax. Now, so far wrong was the Noble Marquis in his calculation, he was convinced a saving of 20 per cent. would accrue to the farmer by the repeal of the Malt Taxes, and of the taxes upon Barley, Salt, Leather, Soap, and Candles. With regard to the Noble Lord's plan, es it applied to the Sinking Fund, he (Mr. Curwen) was as anxious as any one for retaining a Sinking Fund to a certain extent; but let them give all the surplus income of the coun try till the present moment to the relief of Agriculture, and let the Sinking Fund be increased by the million of saving in the next year, and in the years which were to follow. He did believe that the plan for taking off the surplus corn from the markets when the averages were below 55 shillings, would be productive of great benefits. The corn so bought would be warehoused, and ready to come out when the markets should get above 60 shillings, and thereby keep them at a steady price, which would prevent the importation of foreign grain, and put a check upon those injurious speculation which had been so largely carried 00. The question of admitting foreign corn was a most imyortant one, which affected the interests of all classes • and the Noble Lord and his colleagues ou g ht to b e prepared to take it upon themselves without the support cf a Committee. He was astonished to hear the Hon. Member for Sussex, while he acknowledged that the distress of his consti tuents was increasing, express his satisfaction and thanks to the Noble Lord for the statement which he had made. If that was the language to be used by County Members, he did in deed despair. If they had acted firmly and properly, they would have forced Ministers to make reductions. He was sure that relief afforded to the Agriculturul interest by the repeal of the taxes upon salt, leather, and soap, would cause a consi derable increase in the revenue by the increased consumption which they would create. He was very glad to hear that the revenue was in so flourishing a condition. He was utterly at a loss upon what principles to account for the increase ; but lie was told that it was so, and he was bound to believe it. He did not mean to oppose the Committee, but lie did hope that its labours would be confined within so narrow a circle, that the House should have its report before them earlier than the Easter recess.—(Hear, from the MarquiS of Londonderry.)-- As the Noble Marquis seemed to approve of that suggestion, lie tiusted that it would be understood that the report was to be expected before Easter.—(Hear !) Mr. BENE T T (Wiltshire), commenced by complimenting the speech of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham), which he particularly admired for its sound politi cal economy, a science so intimately connected with the interests of agriculture. He was of opinion that the appointment of another Committee would be an insult to the Agricultural in terest. Surely the object of such a Committee could not be to inquire into the extent of the distress ! Every one must be sa , tistied upon that point. The only object then which it could have, must be to inquire into the best means of relid; but after the statement which had been made by the Noble Marquis, it would be ridiculous to expect any thing more than he had pro mised from a Committee of his own appointing. The Hon. Member then condemned the principle of the Corn Bill, and said that if any regulations were necessary, they had better im pose some small protecting duties. Low prices, he contended, would be the most efficient protection to Agriculture, and low prices could only be established by a reduction of taxation. He 'considered the Sinking Fund to be a Mere deception upon our selves ; and if there ever was a time when it could be dispensed with to more advantage than another, it was at the present moment. With regard to the plan of lending money to parishes, he had no apprehension upon that account, for he , was convinced that no parish in England would borrow money on the terms proposed. He also condemned the buy ing up of corn ; lee did not like to use the word ridiculous ; but it certainly was the most absurd proposition that ever was made in that House.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—The Honourable' Member then reverted to what he conceived the oriheinal causes of the present distress, and particularly referred it to the first departure from cash payments. That act he con sidered to have been a robbery committed by one ,portion of the public on another portion ; and that the same act had been repeated by the late Bill, which authorized the resumption of a metallic currency. The last robbery, however, was now cone clicked ; and he was not one who was disposed to disturb the act of the 'House. He thought retrenchment and economy had not been sufficiently attended to. There had been great cla mour in the country about reduction of rents ; and in some places it was said that a reduction of 50 per cent. was necessary. do believed that even that reduction would not afford so much relief as A groper reduction of taxation. He denied, as had been stated, by . Hon. Member, that. the fundholders were the Owners of toproperty of the country. Every species of pro perty gave itsholder a common claim upon the whole. He certainly inuat say that the great landholders deserved the dis tress in labial they were plunged. They had supported the extravagance of the Administration, and helped to continue an expensive war for the last thirty years. As the value of money li 'hettncrea.sed 31 per cent. by sue late Act for the resumption of Ali payments, lie thought it would be but a matter of justice fer".those who received incomes and emoluments from the State's to come voluntarily forward and give up that amount to relieve the distresses of the country. He conjured those Gen tlemen who were connected with the landed interests, to exert the power which they possessed, to relieve it from its present dreadful state of depression. Mr. S. WORTLEY was" not in the House when the Hon. Member for Sussex (Mr. (hooch) addressed it, but he had since heard him blamed for having expressed his satisfaction at the statement of the Noble Marquis. Now if the Hon. Mem ber was to be blamed for this, he begged also to take his share of the blame, for he had listened with the greatest satisfaction to his Noble Friend.—(Hear, hear !)—and he was quite con vinced that the plan proposed was better calculated to afford substantial and permanent relief to the country than any fur ther repeal of taxes could be at the present moment. The lion. member who had just spoken stated that the landholders who supported the late war deserved the distress into which they had fallen. He begged also to say upon this part of the subject that he, so far from taking blaine to himself for hav ing supported that war, had always considered it as a matter of pride. —(Cheers.)--And he would tell that Hon. Member, that he firmly believed that if th a t war h a d no t b een supported, he would have have had a much less share of his estate than he had at present, under all his distress.—(Loud cheering.)—He had ever supported that war, as a war which protected the liberties of the people.—(Hear, hear ! from the Opposition.)— He would repeat that it was a war which protected the liberties of the people; and he was convinced that if the Gentlemen of England had not come forward to maintain it manfully, this country would now have been a province of France.— (Cheers from each side of the House.)—lie was very much surprised to hear the Honourable Member for Cumberland and the Honour able Member for Cheshire state, that they were not satisfied with the statement of his Noble Friend, which 'clearly shewed, that the country was in that prosperous condition of having above five millions of in c o me over h er expen di ture . I t surely must be equally satisfactory to know, that we did possess that sum clear, whether it was to be applied to the repeal of taxes, or to the establishment of the Sinking Fund. As it appeared to him, the reduction of debt weuld operate to lessen the dis tress of the landed interest, as clearly as that two and two made four; and he believed that it would be the best and the surest means of doing so. He would put a case, in which it must inevitably have the desired effect. Suppose a man to have an estate of 6or 7,0001. a year, and that he had mort gaged it for the sum of 20,0001. surely if the rate of interest were reduced from 5 per cent. to 4or 3 per cent. the landlord would be enabled to relieve his tenants in proportion to that re duction. When he said that the statement of his Noble Friend was satisfactory, he wished to make some explanations regard ing parts of it. When lie heard that two millions had been saved by retrenchment, it was impossible that he should not ex press his satisfaction ; but he hoped that would not be a reason why further reductions should not 'be made.—(Hear, hear !) He hoped that his Noble Friend would not rest on his oars be cause so much had been done, but that every further retrench ment would be carried into effect as soon as possible, which was consistent with the safety of the state. it ith regard to the 'four millions to be borrowed from the Bank, the part of it which was to be lent to parishes would certainly give him no satisfaction. What the effect of increasing the amount of the circulation would be upon the funds he did not know ; but he was quite sure that no good could arise from the proposed loans to . parishes. As to the motion before the. House, he was sur prised that the Hon. Member for Cumberland should object to it. What object had they in going into a Committee, bat that of seeking the means of preventing too great an influx of corn after the opening of the ports ? If the Committee produced a measure which would have that effect, it would perform an im portant service to the Agricultural Interest. Feeling. as he did, that it would be to ruin the credit of the country if any further taxation were taken off, lie should not be acting under that sense of duty which always guided him, if he did not express his de termination to oppose it.—(Hear hear !) Mr. RICARDO agreed in the satisfaction expressed by the Honourable Member, at the statement of the Noble Marquis, as far as the improvement of the -revenue went; but he did not agree with him that the amount of the repeal of taxes was such as ought to satisfy the country. The Honourable Member appeared to him to have made one great mistake in his calcula tions: He said that the Sinking Fund being increased, would lower the rate of interest, and that landlords would consequent ly derive advantages which they could disseminate amongst their tenants, and thus afford general relief to the agricultural classes. He agreed that the landlord would derive these advan tages, if the Sinking Fund would have the effect which the lion Member expected' from it, but it would have no such effect.— He thought the Sinking Fund the greatest support of public credit ; and if he could have filly security for its application to the object for which it was designed, it would have no greater friend than he. But after the experience they had had of all Sinking Funds,_ a Sir Robert Walpole's Sinking Fund, and Mr. Pitt' s Sinking Fund ; after they had seen the latter made away by the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer,—he was convinced that a Sinking Fund could be nothing but a fatal delusion to the people. They were induced to pay to it in the hope of lessening their debt, when in point of fact it invariably increased it ; for when it had accumulated to a - certain extent, the Minister was sure to apply it to the payment of interests upon loans which went to make the debt greater. It was said by some, that a Sinking Fund was necessary to intimidate our enemies ; but how was that possible, if it was applied to the liquidation of the debt ? If the present Sinking I and were allowed to go on, he was sure it would be applied at some future time to the same ob jects which had absorbed its predecessors, and there would be nothing of it left but a reduced surplus of two or three hundred thousand pounds. He was very much surprised to hear the Honourable Member for Wiltshire set out with compliment ing his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) upon his principles of political economy, and then to differ with him upon almost every principle on which he entered.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—He then alluded to the differences of opinion be tween the two Hon. Members whom he had just named. The first point on which they differed was, the power of the pro ducer to shift taxation on the consumer. Another was, in the degree of respect which they entertained for the public credi tor. He begged to state, that he had been misunderstood there as well as out of doors, as to what he had said upon that point. Gentlemen misunderstood him if they thought he had denied that all interests hadlheir share-in the property of the country. He should have been ashamed ofhimselfif he had said any such thing. What he said was, that the fundholder had his share in the whole property of the country, his own being included in that whole. (The Honourable Member here began to combat some of the opinions laid down by Mr. Brougham, on a for mer night, when the Honourable and Learned Gentleman made some explanations from his seat which were inaudible.) If he had misunderstood his Hon. and Learned Friend, his ears deceived him but as he denied having stated what he supposed him to have dome ' he was bound to suppose that to be the case. :With regard to the effect of the Agricultural distress upon the country, instead of the country altoge ther being in a state of distress, he considered it to be in a flourishing condition.—(Hear !)--It was only a few years ago that great alarm was excited in consequence of the manufac turing and commercial interests. He then predicted that a short time would restore things to their natural course, and the event justified that prediction.—(Bear, hear, hear !)—He had now strong hopes that Agriculture would not long remain in its present depressed state.—(Cheers.)—But there could be no security for the permanent prosperity of' the Agricultural interests, while they remained under the influence of such corn laws as those now in force. lie hoped that some measure would be determined on for regulating the price of corn, and for keeping it at .a steady and fair remuneration to the grower. There were two of the proposals of the Noble Marquis which could not have his approbation. The one was that of the Bank advancing four millions of gold to the Government, to be thrown into the circulation. He would not take into his consideration the purpose of the Government borrowing this gold, but merely consider the propriety of the Bank lending it to them at all._ In 1819 he advised the Bank, and he received a rebuke for so doing from an Hon. Bank Director—that they should rather sell than purchase gold.. He had now a contrary fear, that they should sell when they ought to purchase. The Bank now sup posed that they had got together enough gold to be adequate to carrying on the circulation of the country. If they were not sure of this, he advised them not to be precipitate in putting four millions more into circulation. Ile believed that the currency had now acquired a proportion which it ought to have with all other countries; and he was certain that they could not put four millions more into circulation without caus ing an export that would take off the surplus. Now, if the Bank had more than enough gold, they were quite'eight in send ing it out of the country, so that it would have the effect of lowering the price of bullion all over the world. He believed the Bank Directors to be most honourable men, and to have the purest intentions ; b u t h e did not give them cre di t f or t h e skill necessary to m anage so d e li ca te a subject. H e b egged leave now to caution th em aga in s t hazarding an increased cur rency of four millions. He would now state what he thought would have been the effect of the Right Honourable Gentle man's Bill, whom he must not name (Mr. Peel), if it had been properly acted upon. lie stated before the Committee that ve per cent. would be the extent of the difference it would make upon the value of money, and he stilt thought that opinion to be a sound one. His own system et that period was this. Then the price of gold was five per cent. higher than paper ; that is to say—a man with an ounce of bullion could ob tain more value for it in the market than another who went into it with four pounds two shillings in paper. The question was how to make the value of the two currencies meet. It was clear that if they could not alter the value of gold, they must raise the paper five per cent. in value. But immediately that was done, a man with three pounds seventeen shillings in paper could purchase as much as the man with an ounce of gold. The Hon. Member then contended, that if the Bill had been founded wholly upon that principle, it was clear that it could only have effected a change of five per cent. Now the Bill was partly upon that principle, and he believed the difference very trifling. Time Bill said, that the Bank should only pay in specie in the year 1823 ; and he ' thought that if the Bank had acted upon that principle, and made no purchases in gold till this year, the price of bullion would never /MY: been altered. And when the year 1823 t arrived, they might still have had further time, for sp e cie payments would neither have been necessary nor required at that time. If his (Mr. Ricardo's) plan, or the Bill of the Right Honourable Gentleman, had been strictly acted upon, the difference in the value of money would not have exceeded five per cent. He was quite surprised to hear his Right Honourable Friend opposite (t!r. Huskisson) support the system of the Noble Marquis lending out money to pa rishes. It was so contrary to all reason, that he was sure it must be abandoned. Ile wished to say a few words more upon the subject of taxation.—(Hear, hear.)—There were two de scriptions of taxes ; on e of w hi c h fell upon the producer, and, if the producer c a m e t o th a t H ouse t o as k re li e f, he would say to him, " You have had the power in your own hands of avoiding the tax, anti if you have not regulated the produce to the demand, you must hear the consequence." But there was another description of taxation, which fell entirely upon the consumer; and if lie Caine in distress, they ought to throw open their doors to relieve him. His complaints were of a very different nature, and deserved the utmost attention. %Veil, then, if they took of the Malt Tax, he should say they took it off the consumer.—(Pear, hear.)—lf they took off the tax on soap, and it was asked whether they took it off the Agricultural producer or the consumer, he should say the consumer. But this was an argument with him why taxa tion ought to be reduced. Ile saw taxation pressing in this manner upon the helpless consumer, not indeed with the re duplication spoken of by his Hon. and Learned Friend, but it did press so as to destroy the comforts and the means of a large class of the people from whom it ought to be removed. It had been said, that he denied taxation to be an evil ; on the con. trary, he held it to be a very peat evil, and only differed with his friends as to the effect which it produced in certain cases. Many Gentlemen seemed to think that the paper system could not have been carried on without a depreciation of the currency; but this he considered a mistake. It might be a wholesome system notwithstanding the measures of restriction. It had been said, , that the Agriculturists had received high rents dur ing the war. So they .had ; but then they had higher prices to pay for all articles not produced by themselves. The high rents were of no benefit to them, except by comparison with the state of the Stockholder; and in that point of view, un doubtedly, the high rents were a benefit to the Landholder ; for the Stockholder sustained a loss by the altered view of money, inasmuch as his dividend was not increased proportion ably with the depreciation.—(Hear,. hear, hear !) On the whole, lie was perfectly satisfied that, in a public point of view, the Stockholder had been is loser rather than a gainer by the transaction. 111 r. BENETT explained. Mr. MANNING addressed the House ; but the voice of the Honourable Member was so low, and there was so much noise in the House while he was speaking, that it was next to impossible to hear any distinct sentence in the Gallery. He was understood to defend the conduct of the Bank, who, he said, had issued a large quantity of gold coin for the accom modation of the public. Ile thought the effect of this, by with drawing the paper currency, had rendered the farmer less able to pay his rent ; but the agricultural distress was not to be at tributed to this circumstance. The Inclosure practice, which had prevailed of late years to a most extraordinary extent, must have had some influence by increasing the population of the country. Mr. SYKES thought the question before the House had been departed from by several Honourable Members, and he would endeavour to bring them back to it. The question was, whe ther the Agricultural Committee should be re-appointed ? and when he heard that the effect of their first labours was only to mystify, he certainly should vote against their continuance, as he should look for nothing else but a renewed mystifica tion in their renewed labours. He was happy to hear the opi nions of the Honourable Member for Suffolk (Mr. Gooch), and those of another Honourable Member, and he trusted that before the end of the present Session they would have fully opened their eyes, and would have seen that it was the course that had been so long taken by this country which had caused the present distress. He could not see with the Honour able Member for . Yorkshire, any source of satisfaction in the statement of the Noble Marquis. That Noble Marquis had held out the hope of an excess of five millions of income be yond the expenditure; but this had been held out over and over again by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and every hope had turned out to be a delusion. Another source of satisfaction to the Hon. Member for Yorkshire was in the con templated rise of stock. To be sure, if' that Hon. Member were advocating the cause of the stockholder this might be very satisfactory; but he (Mr. S.) could not see how a rise in the price of stock would put bread into the mouths of the starving labourers, or rent into the pockets of, he had al most said, the starving Landholders. Yet, as he laid aside all party feelings on this important subject, he would ad mit that there were some passages in the statement of the Noble Marquis which had his entire concurrence. He (Mr. S ) agreed that there should be a surplus, whatever might be its name.— He did not approve of what was called the Sinking Fund, but whatever the thing might be called, he wished!to see a surplus of revenue beyond expenditure. He thought also with the Noble Marquis that much of the distress was attributable to a superabundance of produce ; but he did not admire the pro posed remedy. The burthens must be lightened, and it would not be sufficient for us to wait for the chance of relief. When he considered the vote in favour of retrenchment, to which the House had come last Session, he could not but feel surprise when he found that all that was proposed to be done was to take off one shilling per bushel of the tax upon malt ; to lend to parishes through the medium of Exchequer Bills; and he was surprised that any man, pretending to be a Statesman, should broach the latter plan to an English House of Commons. The effect of it would be to repeal Mr. Peel's Bill, by making a fresh issue of paper : and it was worthy of remark, that the borrowers of this paper would be liable to all the laws of ex tent ; the seizure of property, and the imprisonment of person, with the benefit of the insolvent or the bankrupt laws. This was the relief which was proposed for the Country Gentlemen ! These were the views which met with the unqualified assent of the Member for Yorkshire! In his (Mr. Sykes's) opinion, the only possible relief was to be found in the reduction of taxation ; rn a reduction of the expenses of the Army and Navy, the Ordnance and the Civil Establishments. The propriety of such a reduction had been clearly shewn by the member for Aberdeen ; and although he (NIT. S.) did not ask that the expenses should be reduced to the scale of 1792, he did ask that they should bear a proportion to that period, which at present they certainly did not. The Noble Marquis had said on a former night tliat a standing army was necessary to secure the liberties of the country. Now he (Mr. S.) had heard from some that the liberty of the Press was necessar y to secure those liberties. F'roni others lie had heard that they were best secured in the due administration of justice ; and he had heard many other safeguards suggested; but lie never heard. he thought lie never should have heard from any one, and still less from a Minister, that the liberties of Englishmen must be se cured by a standing Army. When he heard such an opinion from such a quarter, he could not look for much reduction from it; and he therefore trusted that the Members opposite would unite, and laying aside all party feelings, would compel Mini sters to adopt measures of economy. Mr. PEEL said, that the last Speaker had commenced his address by observing that Honourable Members had deviated from the question before the House ; and had proposed to bring them back to it. It was not for him, (Mr. Peel) to give an opinion as to how far the Hon. Member had succeeded ; but it that Hon. Member pleased, he (Mr. Peel) would follow the example rather than the precept. The House would al low him to offer a few observations upon a measure which (properly or not he would not say) had been called after him ; a measure that had been much discussed, and which was con fessedly of the highest importance. He knew not whether it was altogether relevant to the present question, but as so much had been said upon it (and not always very rele vantly), it was not unnatural that he should desire to be heard upon it. When he introduced that measure he was not de sirous to arrogate to himself a merit, much of which it was probable belonged to others. The measure in __question was not then so unpopular as it has at present. But now that measure had become unpopular, he was willing to take upon j himself the responsibility. He would not shelter himself un— der the large majorities of that House which had sanctioned the measure—(Elear, hear, hear !)—he would not shield him. self with that great authority on t - ether side of the House which had actually pressed the measure—(Cheers),—but he would state his liens, deliberate opinion, notwithstanding„ he would. not say the clamour, but he could , not say the argu ment with which it had been attacked, that considering the si tuation of the country at the time the Bill was passed, there was no alternative; and that the best interests of the country were consulted in the passing of it.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He would add too, that in his opinion, but a very small part of' the depression upon Agriculture was to be ascribed to it; and that even that small part would have existed had the measure never originated. Much had been said al:out its pressure upon agri culture; but the House was bound to consider, not its partial, but its general effect.—(Hear„ hear, hear!)—He by no means undervalued the Agricultural interest. If it could possibly be considered distinctly from the other great interests, he admitted that its importance was paramount—(Cheers.)--He was prepared to prove that thethew general interests of society had been consulted by that measure, and that Agriculture itself would in the end sustain no injury from it. W e all felt, we all complain of present evils ; but we closed our eyes upon those we had escaped—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He could not forbear reminding the House of the state of the country at the time when paper was depreciated. Manufac tures were in a state little short of ruin ; and the internal trans quillity of the country was endangered. The counties of Derby, Nottingham, Lancaster, and York, especially were in a state of diitress and commotion ; a state attributed by the Report of a Committee of that House to the low wages which were paid in the manufacturing districts. Yet did the country at that time bear every mark of prosperity. Commerce apparently flourished, and public buildings were promoting with all tie signs of public wealth and spirit. But the founda tion of this apparent prosperity was not sound, because manu factures were in a state of decay. The House would give this part of the question that attention it commanded. He should observe that a Petition was presented from Coventry (a plaCe of considerable importance in the manufacture of ribbands) in the course of the year 1319, just before the appointment of the Committee which recommended the return to cash payments. The Report of the Committee appointed to con sider the matter of this petition gave a tolerably clear view of the general state of manufactures at that time. The Re port adverted to the great increase of the Poor Rates, which it was said would soon b ecome too b urthensome to be borne.— The low wages were not caused by a want of trade, for there was as much demand for manufactures as there had been before. In the year preceding (HU), out of 40 English counties, 23 of them paid a greater sum for poor rates than tee) , had paid be fore or since. They were then at the MAXIMUM of the rate; and it was worthy of observation, that the sane cause had pre duced nearly the same effect in the reign of Queen Elizabeth. The aor rates must be considered the canker of national pros perity. To address himself, however, to the particular mea sure which had call e d hi m up . ll e had been told at the time in question, of the effect which it would have upon 11 .branehes, of national prosperity, and especially upcn the revenue. Now, he fbund the revenue fliurishing, and the other branches he might say prospering. i,t'hy then should the present depressed state of Agriculture be attributed to that measure ? He deeply regretted the depression itself; all that he contended was, that it had not been occasioned by the eff_xt of the bill i n quest i on . Th e reduction of the Poor Rates was an indication of national prosperity ; a reduction which he attributed in a great measure to this Bill, because its effeet was a better payment of the lower classes. In every county out one the Poor Rates had been reduced. Thet county was Northumberland, and in that, fie depression upcn Agriculture was less than it was in tiny othe: county. In Nottingham the reduction had been as much as 18 per cent. ; and in Sussex, the county in which the least reduction bed taken place, it was 31 per cent. These, he inferred, were proofs of national p rosperity . He again admitted that a con stuidrearlabplreodreudcuee;tiosni a l a d r takenfiuctu fluctuations in h a t d h e taken n e of flaAcegirnicuitls price when the currency was unaffected.—[The Hon. Member here referred to the price of corn at diffizent periods since 1770.] The mere circumstance of low price was not to be attributed to an alteration in the value of money. The greatest oppres sion arose from foreign importations. A small excess over the prohibitory average opened the ports, and then a glut was or casionee by importation. The consumption of' corn was, he apprehended, more steady than that of any article of luxury ; and if so, how could it be contended that foreign importations did not affect the Agricultural interest ?—(Hear, hear 1)—It was of no consequence from what source the glut came, if it of the price. This led.him to a consideration of the effect of importations from Ireland. He was disposed to approve of the permission for Irish importations ; but if he admitted that the fears of the agriculturists were well founded, he could not deny that Irish importations had much influence. It was known that corn, cultivated in Ireland since the war, could be grown at a less price there than it could he here ; and it followed that the depression of England must be increased by the supply from Ireland. The importations fer the seven years preceding the year 1814 amounted two millions of quarters ; and for the seven years following that year, to seven millions of quarters.—(Hear, hear, hear 1)—In the last two years of those seven the importations were three of those seven millions of quarters; and in the last three quar ters of a year the importations were 1,500,000 quarters. It was for the general good that these importations were per mitted ; yet he could not but see the consequence of them. Not so, much, therefore, was to be attributed to foreign im portations, and still less to the alteration of the currency. He was convinced that the ultimate relief of the agriculturists would be complete. He came now to the last question. He could not agree with the Hon. member (Mr. Ricardo) in his calculations upon the price of gold, and in his conclusions from those calculations. Agriculture would have suffered although nothing were done to the standard. The Member for Essex air. Western) had brought the subject before the House in the year 1816. He chewed the alarming non-payMent of taxes, the number of provisions taken to enforce their payment, he de scribed the distress which then existed, and lie Concluded by observing, that the taxes could not continue to be 'paid. So then it was clear that distress existed to a considerable extent before the passing of the measure in question.--(Hear, hear.) It was impossible for that distress to have been caused by the alteration of the currency, though that alteration might have partially increased it. He did not - deny tnat the withdrawing of the Country Bank Paper had had some influence ; but the issues in that quarter were too often the consequence of daring speculation, and were therefore artificial in all their effects.— There was no doubt that the Bank of England would have issued paper afresh, but their doing so would have offered only a temporary relief, and would have . Permanently aggra vated the mischief. Had the opportunity which presented itself on the passing of this Bill been lost, it might never have returned, and we might have no prospect before us but that of a continuance in our then state. It was for the purpose of offering these observations in answer to the clamour which had been raised, rather than for any other object, that he had offered himself to the notice of the (louse. His opinion on the principle of the measure was unaltered. He certainly thought that the plan of an Hon. Member (Mr. Ricardo) might have succeeded ; but the question was not merely as to the cur rency; it was a question as to the prevention of crime. The forgery of paper had increased to a terrible extent, and every . effort on the part of the Bank to p reven t i t had proved unavail ing. Besidee, the measure in question had been supported by the high authority of the Member for Taunton (Alr. Baring.e The credit of the Bank at that time was at stake; they had re trieved it, and had most honourably endeavoured to carry the Bill into full effect. In conclusion, he could only say, that at the end of three or four y ears , we s h ou ld b e enabled to look back at our exertions on this important subject with well-de served satisfaction.—(Cheers.) . . Mr. .ELLICE, after observing upon the reluctance he 41 ought to feel at addressing the House after the Right Hut , . Gentleman who had just sat down, said that in the general. principles of that Right Hon. Gentleman, and of the Hon. Member (Mr. Ricardo) he fully concurred ; but he could not agree in their data. It had nerer appeared clear to hint, that the ' , rice of gold was a criterion by which to judge of the price of commodity; if it were, its price must have been af fected on tile late alteration of the currency. The effect of the alteration, be admitted, was - not altogether immediate.' It had been said, that the distress of 1816 was not occasioned by the depreciation of Bank paper;- hut large quantities of gold had been imported at that period ; the Bank paper had been withdrawn in consequence ; and, as another con sequence, the country hands had withdraw,' their paper.— The Honourable Member adverted to the different issues of gold by the Betik, and contended that those issues had not youtiteracted the distress produced by the issue of Bank paper. In 1819 the Committee sat and found the standard price of gold at 41. Ss. They admitted the depreciation to-be the difference beaten the Mint price. and 41. 3s. He was satisfied that the depreciation in the currency at that time, instead of being tfore or fire per cent., was near thirty per cent. It was said, from 1797 to lelo no great de preciation took place, hut on that point lie differed from his Ri g ht Honourable Friend. The Hon. Gentl e man ;h en al luded to the loans anti !::sses which he alleged the country had sustained in consequeuce. In 1815, when the country incurred expellee by the return of Boonaparte, the sum of 45,000,0001. was raised, which cost 53,000,0001. of S per cents. This loan, according to the-Hone Member's calculation, cost the country, in 1842, 90,000,0031. These statements were made in defence of the opinion the Hun. Member expressed in this House on a former occasion. It had been urged that the county of Northumberland did nut suffer so much in the general distresses of agriculture as other counties. Tine cause was this. Providence had blessed that county with the finest crops of corn ever known, and the farmers found less difficulty in selling it. In the propu:ition to borrow 4,000,0001, from the Bank for the relief of the Agriculturists, the Hon. Member cool:' wily see a disposition on the part of the Right Hoe. Gentleman to job for the publiC in the stocks. The Right Ilon. Gentleman knew that one shilling of the money would not he received by the Agriculturist. He meant nothing disrespectful to that Right Hon. systemGentle nian, but the long injurious totle public ofsp interest. eculati ng fie in the not e l Sto ee Stocks sl a wl; th e Battle heel[ Bank could not discount at 4 per cent. Upon a general view of the transactions bettveee the Bank and Government, it was too obvious that the. public were losers. 'flue sole de pendence appeared to he upon the stability of Dank engage ments, and it certainly was necessary that some arrangement should be made by Pat liament on the subject. In the event of war breaking out between Russia and the Turks, what would become of the plains of Government ? The Bank might take alarm at the state of their gold, and all the machinery of Government would stand still. He expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Gentleman would make better arrangements with the Bank in future, and get them to discount at four instead of five per cent. The Hon. Member concluded by declaring that reduction of taxation could only afford relief to the country. Mr. IHISRISSON said, he should not long detain the House. He was surprised to hear himself charged with being the author of the Report. The fact was this: The Committee did him the honour to regnest he would draw up a Report in the spirit of tlitsir Resolutions. He appeal ed to Gentlemen who were on the Committee, to say, whe, then he did not decline the task; but they pressed it so