The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-28 00:00:00

). The ie coun- For it.— !quer in nom ical g there only ; ;ury, so nst'er of thich in was any !ntrench ents ? Finance , which pis seat ng of a II espect a le years a pen t regret fiber for Lave va- ling,- he is a Fi )uld not hat the House Majesty xpendi- Ind effi- e Bill." e never nmittee Fe Ling 'e 'e given ner in >ay with nselves, d from. abou red bet:t ow- E of that profusion. But a short time ago the Act was in no okeration, and did not draw a shilling from the nation.— ("ear!) —.'rite Hon. Gentleman alio represented that that • a mount was th e exc l u si ve property o f a Corporation of Ntatesmen as though any one cou ld p u t hi s h a nd in and take out what he pleased, like an Insurance Com pany, and that the King had no vote in the distribu tion of it all. Such a statement was really of a nature not °nly too low to impose upon any one iu,that House, but even for public meetings. In what could it differ from being dis tributed by the Crown ? Could it differ from being distributed nY the Crown, since every sinecure pension was, and must be, signed b y the Crown ? It was sufficient to refute itself, and lie would therefore leave it to be so refuted by its own pre- Posterous absurdity. The public had actually saved consi derably, so far front having been burdened with any thing „additional by the abolition of places. When the Honourable Member for Appleby raised an outcry against the right of granting these pensions, it would he but fair to consider 'tallier when they prevailed on the Crown to pass the Bill Ifs questioo, it gav e u p ally thing in lieu of it. His friends, if ie had any, could not vote for the repeal of that Bill without admitting that they were either in error, inconsistent, or fac li"us when they voted for .it before. The House would never, on such grounds as the Honourable Member had given ") support his mo ti on , consen t t o w ithd raw front the Crown that which they had given as an equivalent for valuable rights which th e C rown h a d g i ven up . If th e y t oo k awa y thi s "'et, as honest men, they must return to the Crown the pos session of the sinecure offices. He (Mr. Bankes) had contri— "led his humble share towards persuading the House r 'ainst the wishes of Mr. Perceval and his Noble Friend, to depriv e the Crown of their valuable privileges, and he would not consent to re-invest the Crown with them, at the same tine eli ( I it . —(Hear.) hat he was sure no Minister would venture to recom- Hear.) Mr. BENNETT observed, that his Hon. Friend, the Mem ber fur Corfe-Castle (Mr. Bankes), seemed to be extremely s ure at the rough handling which the Bill of his creation had I net with. He defended it with the zeal of a parent for its t :ffipring ; hut a more deformed thing, which deserved to ,ra ve been strangled at its bi r th, never was left to wander ; 4 °lo the world. The Hon. Member, lo)wever, was great 'Y Mistaken in making him (Mr. Bennett) a party to his Re solution of 1810, as lie was not then in the House. But, if he had been, it did not follow that he should have agreed to N , ince, i n n i ne ques ti ons ou t o f t en , h e di sagree d w ith th a t , on. G ent l eman. I t was very proba bl e, however, that h e 'ad voted fur the Bills, and he bad no doubt that if he was again shewn a plan for abolishing sinecure offices, he should oin support it, eve n th oug h h e did no t concur en tir e ly i n ° Pinion with those who projected it. But against some part of the Bill of 1817 he had protested at the time. There were Plenty of Reports of Committees on those subjects, which passed for so many idle words, for all the notice that was ta ken of them. No one had been oftener Chairman of Com nsittees than the Honourable Member (Mr. Bankes)—no "e talked more about economy, was more ample in his P / Ntuises, but backward in the performance of them.— I e supp or t e d th e G ent l emen oppos i te i n a ll t h e i r ex 'raragant and wasteful expenditure, but he nibbled at F e nce. H e vigorously attacked the cheese-parings, but eft the cheese whole and untouched. No one had economy m c t on e o y my on his lips, with extravagance its his ' "'t• —(Laughter and cheers.)—Of the enormous sums 'of consumed by these sinecures, he would give a "riking illustration in one family. He alluded to the Gren tille family, whose moderation was well known to all. First, there was Lord Grenville, Auditor of the Exchequer, for s „ h ich. since 1795, he had received 4,0001. a year, making '' , oool. to hi m alone. Then Thomas Grenville, since 1800, 4t i 20 001. a year, making 44,0001. The late Marquis of Buck 4g,harn, who was appointed to a Tellership in 1763, and held ",` , or fifty-six ld years at 10,0001. annually, no l e s s o f th e p u bli c Is tie had goe tha 560,000. Lord Bra at ybrook, who had e a similar appoi n ntment since 1762, 20001. a year, • . 1 ,, 0 ,0001., amounting ill the whol e f or one f am ily t o 872,0001. 'ise Crown possessed too much patronage already, and its in. Mience extended to every place, hoverer low. But yet the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) was stickling for not depriving the Crown of its power, or stripping it of what he called its r ights. Would the Crown believe, that whilst the Hon. Gen llentan was talking in that way, the Crown was annually dis-1 Posing of 464,0001. in pensions ? The right of doing this was iut'ested in the Crown for the benefit of the nation, and could the right of disposing of 42,0001. annually in perpetuity, be ' 1 3 0 arced, when employed solely for the purpose of ministerial • iobbi n to obtain votes an in the lowest species of political g aseness ? When the , Parl d iament invested the power in the Cro wn , it was on the essuruption that it would not be abused. He had much rather, however, have the old abuse of sine cure places, than the new reform in place of it. There was not one of those opposite but the Right Hon. Secretary for t i ! m e Rome. Department (Mr. Peel), who had not served his long enough to have a claim to 0 pension. It was too •oycciaterhs: ,tie at after some service of two, five, six, or eight were to be entitled to saddle themselves on the ii„" unt rY for y the whole period Of their natural lives. The Member for Corfe Castle had scorned and sneered at r Public Meetings. He (Mr. Bennett) would like to see at one of thein—(a latigh)—he had no doubt he would 5 , 5 duly appreciated, and rewarded by a jury of public meet ,4lgs. If he would only submit his conduct to the examina ),n of such a body, his inconsistency in nibbling at petty, ry reform, whilst lie supported Ministers in all their pro be slaty and extravagance, would be found out, and he would considered as h e ought to be. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as this was a nlotion for information, although he did not think a case had been made for it, he should not make aey opposition. But ; v ith regard to the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, he would take th e liberty of making a few observations on what had fallen from him. He owned he thought he had with much Ctrstlour and gallantry m a d e th e a tt ac k on hi s H ono ur a bl e "lend (Mr. Bankes), more so, indeed, than he thought Prudence, in his cooler Moments, would sanction. If in tend of l ea di ng th e a tt ac k hi mse lf, to cover the re treat of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Creevev), he had . l a jeepted the offer of the services of the Henourable felt ter for Westminster (Mr. Hubliouse), it would have been " .1 better taste. His talents were of a nature peculiarly l imited to the task, and as he had lately come amongst them, lie had the advantage of riot being mixed up with any of ~muse anterior transacti ons w hi c h h a d ren d ere d th e situa • `° l l of the Honourable Moves so desperate since the ex position of the H ono u ra bl e M em b er f or C or t e C as tl e (Mr. p a nkes). He had, however, gallantly charged his Hon. !lend, and it veould he worth while to see how he had met , u , mn ,t• He said he was not in Parliament in 1810, when the t r ineiple, afterwards acted upon in the Bill of 1817, was A roadly laid down. Both lie and the Honourable ISlember for P,Pieby, however, were the determined advocates of the Bill u "enspted to be introduced in 1813, which embodied all that t "'as contained in that of 1817. With regard to any attempt repeal that Bill s whatever it might be considered in that a ° use, out of it, he begged to say, it would be looked upon they approaching to swindling. They had prevailed upon the Crown to give up valuable rights it held for the b enefi t of 4 1 e nation, on the guarantee of this Bill. The Bill granted s le Power ef rewarding public services, and the clamour raised g a inst it, under the p a rti cu l ar c i rcums t ances , he thought was M ne ither fair, honourable, nor straight forward. The Hon. e mbers who were now for repealing the Bill had supported for several years, and they now wished to pull down the raised 14 their own hands. They seemed to think that Majesty' s Mi n i s t ers f orme d a sor t o f corporat i on , an d a al deomfortably provide for each other out of the funds with t ever going into the presence of their S o v e reign. But they „ 4e erned to have no other objection than that pensions should be bestowed under this Bill without service; and he felt .tilvinced nothing they had urged in behalf of their own sen litnents would alienate the House from the strict and obvious fse of duty. The Hon. Member for Shrewsbury had indul. ed his taste in a manner that he could ot consider candid. ‘_,n the list of sums of public money rece ived by some indivi. uals lie had named, he omitted to mention the honourable . a ct, that the Duke. of Buckingham had sacrificed a large s a ns, which h e vo l un t ar il y gave up. —(H ear, h ear.)— H e did n ull, know if t h at H on. G ent l eman had got workers on in ge tZral, but it w as se ld om th a t lie directed his regards other rs straight before him.—(Laughter.)—ll e had sat many ,eats fronting him (the Marquis of Lond on d err y,) and he had "ever ob serve d hi m look aside before. He had taken the cal. Z sla tion to be r ea d t o th e H ouse ou t o f a very neat pocket hook e , wher e h e scented to have a store o f the same kind ; a n d .would certainly take the liberty of recommending him to one more to his stock of the deserts of individuals who so r,'rticularlf called fdrth his spleen. As he seemed to have had never little papers in his pocket-book for some time, and had rtryer produc e d them before, lie could not help thinking rio la .t had it not been for recent. circumstances, they would 4 ± now have been favoured with a glimps.--(A 7.knew that wh en th e Hon. Member had e got . himself into 4- from pledging himself t o move th e repea l o f a Bill, ill.! e ere nild.tiet.easily g e t out of it, but he could assure the Hon. e mber for Appleby, that such a motion would probably be or o ne. least well received of any th a t s h ou ld h e b roug h t svard during the whole Session. With the exception, per ieicliedof a few Members on the third bench opposite, e House Would be generally indisposed to adopt this crane- PrinciPle•—(Laughter.)—Th e Hon. Member had come p (l ,o ° .. Wri to the House apparently with a most determined pun ,,,rsand he always bad a severity about his manner, which naturals created alarm. These dreadful appearances, how ,: had not been, ealized, and there was nothing to lead to ,_se conclusion that the Hon. Member would be less good Im. B"!o;tired this Session than he was the last. He would only t : that.of all the motions that could be brought forward in ' sli t present Session, there was none -be apprehended the , ' failure or more than that promised by the Ittin:Nrotutiei.- - (Hear, hear!) Mr;CREEVEY, in reply, observed, that he was not more open to the charge of inconsistency on the subject than Majesty's Ministers, who now supported warmly what they formerly opposed. He was glad to hear from such high au thority, that no motion would be worse received by his Ma-. jesty's Ministers, than that he had promised for the repeal of this Bill, which he should certainly do all in his power to get erased from the Statute Book. After a few words from Sir R. HERON, the Resolutions were agreed to. IRISH COURTS OF JUSTICE. Mr. SPRING RICE called to the recollection of the House, that in the last Session a Report from the Commissioners on the Courts of Justice of Ireland was laid on their Table, and he had in consequence given a long notice of a motion on the subject of it. He had then felt it his duty to submit to the House certain propositions, which were withdrawn on the proposal of the Noble Marquis to submit it to a Committee up stairs. That Committee had made a Report, which was presented at the end of the last Session, in which they state on one point, that the letter of the Chief Baron of the Ex chequer of Ireland was not satisfactory; on others that more information was necessary. The N o bl e Marquis had pledged himself to supply Parliament with the information which might be necessary. To ascertain what steps had been taken to supply that information,' was one of the objects of the pre sent motion, as the subject loudly called fur investigation. In the next place a stamp tax had heels imposed to pay the sala ries of some of the officers of the Courts of Justice. He wish ed to know the produce of this tax. The Government had, by a recent Act. of Parliament, the power to appoint to certain of fices in the Courts of Justice in Ireland, which were now vacant. He wished to have an account of these offices. He hoped the Irish Government, in filling them up, would not appoint any men who had been marked as public delinquents. He was the more anxious to call for this information, because the Chief Baron, in describing the practices in the Exchequer, had stated that his practice was supported by that of the King's Bench, which the Chief Justice of that Court had stated was nut the case. The Honourable Member con cluded by moving an Address for the Correspondence between the Irish Government and the Courts of Justice on the Re port of the Commissioners on the Fees, &c. of Courts of Justice, and other information connected with the same subject. Mr. GOULBURN made no opposition to the motion, and observed, that the Report which he had this Session laid on the table, and which was in the course of printing, contained much information on the matter in question. After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT, the motion was agreed to. Mr. S. RICE moved for an Account of Commissions grant ed to swear affidavits in Ireland in the last year, and the Fees taken on recognizances, and the swearieig of Sheriffs since 1608.—Agreed to. COMMISSION OF SEWERS. - Mr. DICKINSON moved fur a Select Committee to inquire into the law and practice of the Commission of Sewers, and to report thereon, with their observations, to the House.— Agreed to, and the Committee named. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Com mittee of Supply. Mr. HUME was particularly anxious to gain the attention of the House for a short time. He found himself placed in rather a novel situation, in consequence of what took place in that House upon a former occasion. He had been accustomed to bring forward statements and facts, and, upon the last occasion of his doing so, the Honourable Secretary of the Admiralty thought proper to contradict him in a manner most flat and positive. Now his present purpose was to thew to the House, that the Hon. Secretary in so doing had read from the Estimates figures which were not to he found there, and had stated the totals at an amount widely different from the reality. He did not pretend to make fine speeches, his forte was not in sarcasm and ridicule.—(Cheers from the Op position.);--He came forward with statements upon the public Estimates, and he expected to be met with some degree of fairness and candour.—(Hear, hear!)—The Hon. Secretary bad every advantage over bins; he had the power in the House and out of the House. Out of the House, because he had every access to private as well as' public official documents. Yet .he came down to the House the other night, when he (Mr. Hume) brought forward his motion, and said that be happened to have by chance the official papers which referred to the subject, which papers were not, in fact, the official papers. Although the Hon. Secretary said that he (Mr. House) did not know wotad from - stone, or ships from bar : racks ; but he hoped that lie•,knew inistatements from facts, and truth from falsehood.—(Hear, bear, hear!)—There were two very important facts of his speech to which he would call the attention of the House. In his statement, be laid down that the Estimates voted by the House in 1817 for the naval service 'of the year. was 5,985,4201., being 4,009,0001. more than the estimate for the present year. He would now shew that the Honourable Secretary had made a blunder upon this head, for he'stated that 671,1001. should be added to the Estimate of this year, which would make it six millions and odd. He - had now subMitted the papers to an Hun. Gentleman, and also to an Hon. Ba ronet, and he had verified every item of his statements,' and proved them to be correct front the Estimates. He had brought down the Estimates, and he could shew the House, that in the flat contradiction which the Hon. Secretary had thought proper to give him, he was altogether in error. He was not aware that the sam which he added to the Estimate was for the paying off the Navy Debt, and • not for the ser vices of the year. The House would recollect that the Hon. Secretary called upon them to remark, that he had forgot to add the 671,0001., making a total of six millions and upwards. He thus shewed that he did - not 'understand the difference between sums voted for the service of the year, and those appropriated to paying off the Navy Debts, He begged here to remark, that Owing to those mysterious means by which the debates of that - House got before the public, an Evening Paper had given his speech verbatim from a certain Morning Paper, whilst that of the Honourable Member was not, but appeared to have beenrevised and corrected. There was another of his statements which he bad also verified, with regard to his assertion, that, since 1815, 17,000,0001. had been expended in repairing and building 'ships. The Honourable Secretary had taken hold of his having once said " tear and wear," for the purpose of making a laugh. He assured the House that any one was perfectly free to use the same means with him, if they would but stick to the troth.—(Cheers from both sides.)—He knew he exposed himself to it, and he must accordingly take his chance.— (A laugh.)—He who went to the wars must expect blows. The same channel, which gave his speech to the public, sta ted, that he said the 17,000,0001. were expended upon the navy afloat and ashore. In one year of the period he had na med, the expence of rebuilding and repairing ships of war was 8,566,8981. The Hon. Secretary said there was only five millions in the whole time; therefore lie was out three mil lions upon one head. The total for the seven years commen cing with 1815, he contended was exactly what he first stated it to be. If they were to carry on the debates of the House for any good or useful purpose, Hon. Members should not give flat contradictions where the; were not prepared to sub stantiate them. This was particularly imperative upon Mi nisters, because they had access to o ffi c ial sources o f informa tion. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that "in order to enable the House to judge of the p r opri e ty o f v o ting the supplies for the naval and marine establishments, and for those of the Ordnance, for the year 1922, it is expedient that there should be laid upon the table such Estimates in detail as would point out in what manner the sum of 1,781,3251. was to be appropriated." Mr. CalifiEli said, he was desirous of beginning with giv ing the Hon. Gentleman a degree of credit, and paying him a compliment; and the reason why he wished to do so thus early was, because he was only likely to do it once. He had no doubt but that the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly sincere in his statements the other night, or else be never would have revived the subject again. He (Mr. Croker) pledged himself, however, once more to disprove all that the Hon. Gentleman had advanced; and, to use a common expression, the Hon. Gentleman would only find himself deeper in the mire by his struggle to get out of it. He pledged himself to convince the House that all these repeated statements were either false in their =mint, or, where they were correct in their amount, mistaken in their meaning and application. He would begin by clearing away a few obstacles which the Hon. Gentleman had thrown in his way, though they were not closely connected with the merits of the question at issue. The Hon. Gentleman had insinuated that he (Mr. Croker) had access to private documents in order to make out his case. He declared that be had made his calculations and statements from nothing but the printed estimates upon the table of the House—(Hear, hear !)—and ❑pon that information had his triumph been founded, and not as the Hon. Gentleman stated it to be.—(Cheers.)--The Hon. Gentleman further• stated that his speech had been given in one place as a sort of plagiarism from a certai►► Morning Pa per, and that his (Mr. Croker's) had been revised and cor rected. He would assure the Hon. Member, that, as far as he was concerned individually, he had never corrected or looked at a speech of his own before going to the press, ex• cepting upon the Duke of York's Investigation, and once upon the Catholic Claims; and that he had not written one word in a newspaper for these two years past. The Hon. Gentleman had informed the House, that a kind of out-door Committee had sat upon his refuted statements, consisting of an Hon. Friend of his and an Honourable Baronet, who was famous for surmounting obstacles, by cutting off corners, and getting the shortest way through the most difficult roads and passes. nut, he prestinata3, that all the Hon. Gentle man had done was to lay his own accounts before them, and to' satisfy the House that they were numerically correct. It was, however, for the House to judge bet*ixt the Hon.Gen tieman and himself, and the decision of those Honourable Memberswould in a very trifling degree affect the main ques tion. He would now proceed to the Honottrable Gentleman's statements. He first stated, that he fixed the estimate of the year 1817 at 5,985,0001. Now what he (Mr. Croker) meant fearlessly to assert was, that whatever might have been the intentions of the Hon. Member, he did actually calculate the estimate for 1817 at s,3oo,oool.—(ilear s hear, with cries of dissent from the Opposition.)—He would shew how this must have been, and he would convince the I - louse that such was the fact. What was the quarrel which the Hon. Member was then fighting ? Did he not say, " Is it to be borne that the estimates of this year should begreater than those for the year 1817?") — (Hear, hear, and No, no, from the OppositiOn.)—lf that had not been his argument, the answer be (Mr. Croker) made him would not have been such as to resider it necessary that he should wait four and twenty, or eight and forty hours be fore he could reply to it. What he (Mr. Croker) then said was, that the Honourable Gentleman was mistaken to the amount of 600,0001.; for he expressly stated, that if lie added the 600,0001. to the estimates, they would make six millions. He appealed to the memory of the House upon these points. —(Cheers.)—He would do more, lie would appeal to its rea son. This lwas the express argument of the Honourable Gentleinn, that in 1822, the estimates were higher than in 1817. That was the object of the Honourable Gentleman; he wanted to shew that there was an increase in the expen diture rather than a reduction, and not to plead the cause of the Admiralty.—(Cheers.)—He would now tell the House how the mistake had occurred. It happened that in the printed Estimate, the old stores had been deducted from the amount in a very awkward maniser.—(Hear, hear! from the Opposition.)—The Office was, however, free from blame (yen this head.—The fault lay with the Hoese, far it was to lie found in the Act of Parliament.—(Hear, hear, hear I)—The Act ordered that the stun should be abated from the Esti mates, arid in another part, that it should be taker: as part of the Ways and Means. It was therefore inserted in the Esti mates, but not taken with them. The fact was, that at the first sight of the Estimates the total appeared in large figures to he 5,300,0001., and the Hun. Gentleman must have taken his impression front that circumstance. Mr. HUME made some observations in denial, from his seat ; and the SPEAKER called him to order. Mr. CROKER. proceeded. A cursory view of the printed estimates of 1817 would create the idea that the head of Ex traordinaries for the Navy was 1,800,0001.; hut if it was looked into, a little pen and ink work would shew that it was 2,476,0001. The fict was, that the lion. Gentleman only went over the surface of the accounts ; he did nut go to the bottom of them.—(Hear, hear 1)—" It so happened," said Mr. Croker, " that on the morning of the day when the pre sent estimates were to be submitted to the House, an Hon. Friend of mine, who was with me said, Now, I should not be surprised if Mr. Hume came down to the House te, night and told von that your estimates were higher than those of 1817."—(Laughter!)—This is no tale made for the occasion; for not only was my Hon. niend with me at the time, but two other Hon. Members who are now in the House, and several other persons. Ido not think it would be necessary for me to state this, because I trust the House would hare be lieved it on my own assertion;—(Cheers)—hut such was the fact. My Has. Friend then said to me, I'll tell you how he will - fall into the blunder : the amount f old stores does not appear at first sight upon the paper, and he will tell you that the Estimates for 1817 are 5,300,0001. while those of the present year are s,soo,oool.!—(Continued laughter.)— I said that I had not had the benefit of hearing much of the Honourable Gentleman's style of argument, and calculation, but that I thought he could hardly fall into suck a blunder. As soon, however, as the Hon. Gentleman got up the other night, he had scarcely commenced, when any Hon. Frienst, who was sitting by my side, nudged me, and said— " There, I told you he'd be caught!"—(Great laughter and cheering.)—There was another point which was important. The Hou. Gentleman had charged him with having forgotten a little.item of 1,600,0001. which ought to have been placed to the debt of the Navy, and not to the current services of the year. The lion. Member told him that lie was su ignorant as not to know the difference between Navy debt and the Sup plies of the year. Now, let them see how that fact stood. The fact was, that the Hon. Gentleman's ignorance pre vented him from knowing that this sum of 1,600,0001. was, with a comparatively trifling exception, devoted to the ser vice of the year. He would beg to read to the I-louse the 13th clause of the Appropriation Act, which ran as follows : " And be it further enacted, that out of all the aids and sup plies, shall be issued for the Naval service, 7,645,0001." He could also strew that the sum ,in question' had not been ap plied to the Navy debt; for the Navy debt had not been less ened more than tOO,OOOl. in that year; 1,500,0001. therefore, went to the Naval Estimates of .the year. The House would now easily perceive that the Honourable Gentleman did not know much about the Navy debt.—(Hear, hear !)—' There was another extraordinary difference between the Him. Gentleman and himself. The Hon. Gentleman chose to state that seventeen millions had been expended in building ships. —(No, no! from the Opposition.)—He would prove it out of the Hon. Gentleman's own mouth.—(Flear, bear I)—After making that assertion, he added that that sum would be suf ficient to build all the navies in the universe. —(Hear, hear, bear 1)—If he meant for building and supplying, why had he not taken the whole Estimates of the Navy ? The Hon. Gen tleman had also taken two snore years into the period which he first selected, to make up the amountof his seventeen mil lions. He first stated that that sum hail been expended in ship-building since the year 1817.—(Hear, hear ! anti No, no.)—He not only said that, but lie afterwards paraphrased it, and mentioned the period of five years.—(Cheers, with cries of " No," from the Opposition.)—He could demonstrate to the House that the Hon. Member had fixed that period. iVhea he was contradicted as to some of the sums by the Hon. Gentleman, he happened to have time printed estimates, and read them year by year, beginning with seventeen, and the Hon. Member giving his consent, or otherwise, as he pro ceeded, and not saying one word as to the time being wrong. —(Cheers.)—The Honourable Gentleman replied, and still he did not remark mien this circumstance.—(Hear, hear! " Yes," from Mr Hume.)—Well, then, if he did so, why repeat it again this evening ?- , -(Hear, hear, hear 1)—It was to those years that he (Mr. Croker) applied himself, and to those years he understood the Hon. Gentleman to refer when he first made his statement. What had the Hon. Gentleman brought into his calculation of ship-building? The building of houses, Making of fences, draining, and various operations of a similar description. The Hun. Gentleman would not have fallen into these mistakes, if he exercised a due dili gence.—(Hear, hear!)—That he exercised a diligence, he granted; but not a slue one. Even with what lie had thus introduced, still he could not make up Isis 17 millions; and Shad cansequentlytaken in the years 1815 and 1816, the for mer of 'which was a year of war, the ordinary repairs of the Navy, and the wear and tear of the fleet afloat. He hap pened to fix upon the sum of 17 millions, by that confusion of figures and ideas which he (Mr. C.) had alluded to on a hornier occasion, and then . fie made it up by adding these things to swell the amount.—(Hear, hear, hear!)—'The. Hors. Gentleman had come down to the House to move fee a new trial ; but he only asked it upon two points, whereas there were many points upon which he stood toneicted. Did the House remember how the Hon. Gentleman disposed of the Marine service. They must judge of accuracy by general accuracy, and not by one or two statements out of a large nutnber.—(Hear, hear !)—The lion. Gentleman informed the House, that the marines cost the country 330,0001. whereas the whole pay of the navy was only 600,0001.; and thus the Government, which %bore all prided itself upon the glory and the power of its navy, had reduced the pay of that navy to the paltry pitaauce of 800,0001. a year. The manner in which he arrived at this conclusion was by taking the whole expen ces of the marines, barrack, accoutrements, food, and every thing, and deducting it from the wages alone of tine navy.— This was like all his other acenracy. There was the case of the Paymaster, for whom he told the House they were called upon to vote a large RUM, when, in point of fact, the case did not occur in the same estimate, and would be brought before the House in its proper place. He left it to the House, whether they would give information of an impor tant nature, upon the ground of such statements, and.whe ther they could ever feel safe in acting upon them. There was no one who had 'more consideration for the infirmi ties of our nature than he (Mr. Croker) had, and no one who was more exposed to - them than himself ; if, therefore, warmth of feeling had led him out of the way in discussing this topic, he trusted that it would be attributed to nn im proper motive. What he said of the Honourable Member he meant only to apply to his figures mid statements. The conviction that the Honourable Gentleman was erroneous in his calculations, was so strong upon him that he could not resist it. He gave him credit for sincerity, but under that sin cerity lie .was directly and positively misleading the House. Mr. BERNAL contended that seven years was the time fixed by his Honourable Friend, namely, from the year fif teen downwards, during which he stated that the 17 millions had been expended. If the Honourable Secretary allowed that the sum of 17 millions hail been expended upon ship ping during that period, there was nothing to dispute in that part of the case; for then it was impossible that his Hon. Friend could have included the expenses of Plymouth Break water, and of the improvements carried on in the Dock yards. The Honourable Member supported at some length. the Amendment of Mr. Hume. Sir H. PARNELL supported Mr. flume's statement. Mr. RICARDO said, the calculations of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had not been clearly understood. He consi dered the statement applicable to ship-building, wear and. tear, and other heads of set vice.—Sir G. CLARK explained. Mr. BROUGHAM said the question was of too Much im portance to suffer it to pass without making a few observa tions. He boldly asserted that the accuracy •of his Hon: Friend 00 main points stood unirupeached, and he was the More fully convinced of it front his attention to the discus sion of that night. As he %TM absent on the night on which his Holt. Friend moved fur the production of the ac counts of the Navy Estimates, he confided in the general accuracy and experience of his Hon. Friend; but lie need not rely on these alone—the statement of the Honourable Secretary still further convinced him. He had said that his Flonourable Friend made an error of 11,000,0001. — AS private anecdotes were in vogue, he might be per mitted to mention one. When lie came into the House that evening, he was told that arguments were used to prove that his Hon. Friend was greatly out in his caculations; he asked to what amount ? it was replied to the amount of eleven millions; he answered that that statement carried along with it its own confutation—it proved a great deal tao much. A ratan may make an error of 3or 400,0001., but it was impossible. however Coal pliCat the accounts may he, which was admitted, that so great an cm)e could have been . made. His Honourable Friend included the " tear and wear" —no, " wear and tear," he should keep those words in the right order in his statemenls. The Honourable Secre tary admitted the sincerity of his Honourable Friend, in tended, perhaps, as a slender compliment, but in that case important, because, if he admitted it, it was impossible that he could have thought him capable of makitig so great an error. He held in his hand a document, iii which it, was ex pressly stated that the amount. of ship-building, wear and tear, ordinary repairs, stores, Zke , amounted to 17,760,0001 , which was a strung woof of the accuracy of his Hon. Friend's statement. It was also clear, from that document, that he included the expenses for seven years, because that docu ment contained an account of them from 1815, though the Honourable Secretary said he only took the expenses for four years. He was further borne out in his accu racy by what appeared in a newspaper report of his speech on Friday night.—(Order, order, order !)—Well, as he could not use that expression, he would say, in a certain document—a certain portion of recent history. In that his torical relation there appeared a statement very like a speech in Parliament, and though, perhaps, not strictly legal, he would say, very like the speech of the Member for Aber deen; and in that statement there was an account of the wear and tear fiom 1815 upwards, and that was found in that portion of Parliamentary history which was all on one side. That put a seal upon his Honourable Friend's ac curacy. lie would ever protest against such arguments be ing used against his Honourable Friend, who was wear ing hin.self in the arduous labours and multifarious de tails he had taken upon himself. But let not Honourable Gentlemen imagine they would gain by his wear and tear— he hoped on his return from Circuits to see him in his place in the same vigour and spirits, extorting applause from every side.of the House. Some lion. Gentlemen were congratu lating themselves, and taking joy when they met, at the ima ginary defeat of his lion. Friend on Friday . night. " Oh," they were saying, " there is an end to hitn." Those faint halcyon days will again return, when any Holt. Member who moved for Army or Navy Estimates would be coughed down, when there cries against him of Buonapartist, jacobin, level ler, and of raising a fabric of Revolution on the basis of Re ligion ;, but he was convinced his Hun. Friend would still keep the confidence he had acquired by his exertions, and would do more good for the country than lie had already done, great though that good was. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, lie was not dis posed to occupy much of the time of the House, but he could not suffer the subject to close without a few observa tions. The Noble Marquis thought they were upon the Navy Estimates, but it seemed by the speech of the Ho.. nourable and Learned Gentleman, that they were dis cussing a question of far greater importance. The agri cultural question, sy4s nothing to the question of accu racy, as applied to the Honourable Member for Aber deen. That Honourable Member must certainly he in a dreadful situation.—(Hear, (rear, hear!)—lt was perhaps in human in his Honourable Friend to fight single handed and wound the Hun. Member for Aberdeen so deeply. The alarm, it appeared, had been taised in the enemy's camp, Brookes's had beat to arms, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as the greatest of all calculators, had taken the field. The Hun. and Learned Gentleman had declared he was ready to expend all the gunpowder in his magazine.—(Repeated bursts of laughter.)—lt however happened in this instance, that the ar dent desire to bring on a general action, had led to the defeat of the assailants. He never thought the fame of the Hun. Gentleman would depend on his calculations, but it appeared that he could not receive a vote front a single Corporation,— not another gold snuff-box, if his calculations were erroneous. —(Loud laughter.)—No more honours for the Hon. Gentle -111311, unless the House was disposed that night to pronounce a verdict in his favour. The Hon. Member was on his back, and the House could not pat him on his legs.—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman thought nothing could resist the Hon. Metoher's figures. if his figures were good, his argument was bad, and if his argument was good, his figures must he bail. An attempt had been made to prove the calcula tion good, by the production of a speech two years old.— The Hon. and Learned Gentleman considered the old docu ment direct proof of the Hun. Member's accuracy, anti this was certainly the greatest effort made by the Honourable ittri Learned Gentleman during the present Session in Parlia ment.—(A laugh.)—The argument sod calculation of the Hon. - Member were both said to he good, but both sides of the House would allow that the replication of the Hon Gen tleman must depend on the issue, which might he more fatal than the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was prepared to ex, pect. The Noble Marquis did not think his Hon. Friend was impeached by any thing ihat had passed. Mr. HUME anti Mr. CROKER explained. . . •Mr. W. SMITH adverted to the . conduct of• Mr. Hume last Sessions of Parliament. At first he was considered a person unacquainted with figures, but at the end of the Ses sions persons came forward, cap in baud, and offered to sup ply him with papers. This was done because the country was' in his favour. The Honnorable Member, in his Mr. Smith's) opinion, was the Encyclopaedia of Finance.--(A laugh.)—Before the end of the present Session all opposition to his efforts would die away. _ _ The question being loudly called for, the House divided— For the Motion Against it Majority —sl The Gallery was not opened after the Division. The House adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK this Morning. MINORITY ON MR. HUME'S MOTIONS FOR A DETAIL OF THE SUMS GRANTED FOR TILE NAVAL SERVICE FOR THE CURRENT YEAR—FEB. 27. .AlthOrp, Visct. Fitzgerald,LordW. "Powlett, Hon. W. Barnard, 'Viscount . Guise, Sir W. Price, R. .Barrett, S, B. M. Graham, S. Pym, F. Bennet, Hon. H. G. Honeywood, W. P. Ricardo, David Benyon,"Benj. Halthmand, W. Ridley, Sir M. IV. Bernal, R. " -Hill, Lord Arthur Robarts, A. W. Birch, J. Hobhouse, J. C. Robarts, Colonel , Brougham, Henry , James, IV. Robinson, Sir Ci. Bright, Henry Johnson, Col. . Mambold, C. Bury, Viscount Jervoise, J. P. Rice, T. S. Boughey, Sir J. P. Leycester, Ralph Stanley, Lord Calvert, C. Lambton, J. G. Sefton, Earl of Calcraft, John Lennard, T. B. Scott, James Cavendish, Lord G. Lloyd, Sir E. Sykes,,D. Caulfield, Hon. H. ' Maberly, J. Stuart, Lord J. Colburne, N. R. Maberly, W. L.. Taylor, M. A. Concannon ' L. Marjoribanks, S. Tierney, Rt.lln. G. Crespigny, Sir W. Macdonald, Jas. Tennyson, C. Creevey, T. Martin, John Townshend,LordC. Davies, T. H. Normanby, Visct. Webbe, Ed. Denison, W. J. Newman, R. W. Whitbread, Sam. Duncannon, Visct. Nugent, Lord Wilkins, Walter Dundas, Hon. T. O'Callaghan, Jas. Williams, Wm. Ebrington, Visct. Parnell, Sir. H. Wilson, Sir R. Ellice, Ed. Palmer., C. F. Wyvill, M. Fergusson, SirR.C. Pares, Thos. Whitmore, W. W. TELLEas--Jos. Hume and W. Smith. The unfortunate gentleman who lately com mitted suicide at the west end of the town, is stated to have been the holder of 300,00 W. in the 5 per cents., sand the report of its being the in tention of Government to reduce the interest is supposed to have operated so much upon his feelings as to have produced temporary derange ment, and his untimely end. Yesterday, about 12 o'clock, one of the Paddington stage coaches, driving from the end of Tottenham-court-road towards Battle-bridge, was overturned, with four inside and five outside passengers. The accident was occasioned by the near Wheel flying off; but; notwithstanding the coach was laid flat down on its side, the passengers escaped with a few trifling bruises.— The coachman's knee was badly hurt by the fall. The noted George Groves, so long a terror in the lower part of Somersetshire, and who lately received sentence of transportation at the Derby Quarter Sessions, has been delivered on board the Bellerophon hulk, at Sheerness, preparatory to his being conveyed to Botany Bay. SUN OF SCIENCE, LITERATURE, AND THE ARTS, No. 11. When we again are enabled to t4e up our • pen to wander in the fi e lds of Scien - ce, we are almost lost in the abundance of interesting in vestigations 'which present themsees - at every turn, and did we not set out witA., a fixed 'volution to avoid mere speculative.:reason ingf we might speedily be confounded in the maze into width we should be led, and might soon forget what the Author of " Memory" has so beautifully inculcated— That very Law which moulds a tear, And bids it trickle from its source ; That very Law preserves the Earth and sphere, And guides the Planets in their course. These unerring laws no speculativ . ephi•losophy can set aside, on these laws are the beacons which true philosophy holds out, which very laws, said the illustrious President of' the Royal Society, " demonstrate the intelligence by which they were designed." 1. ON TUE MANUFACTURE OF A PURE WHOLESOME VINEGAR FOR DOMESTIC PURPOSES.—The Vinegar which has for ages been vended by the retailers of this' country is prepared from the fermented washes of barley and other grain, which are for this purpose kept heated in close rooms, to a requisite temperature. This process, however, the manufac turers of late years found means to expedite by mixing wio, the fermenting materials considerable quantities of sulphuric acid (oil of vitriol) which considerably quickens the process, and ' Dives to the vinegar a much stron g e r t as t e . Thi s fraudu lent adulteration is now,however, nearly at an end; for the new or " Distilled vinegar" of the shops has nearly superseded its This vinegar is procured by the dry distillation of wood-shav ings, &e. ; and in the neighbourhood of Glasgow we have learnt that a considerable manufactory of this acid is carried on at an extensive cooperage ; the chips and shavings of the staves affordino•" abundance of materials. The a cid th us p rocure d (the old Pyroligneous) is deprived of its colour and empyreu matie flavour, we have reason to believe, by the application of animal charcoal, and the acid thus formed, as usually vended, is twice as strong as the vinegar of malt—it is used extensively as an excellent preservation of animal matters, as herrings, mackarel, fresh meat, &c. by simply dipping them once into the acid, keep fresh in the hottest seasons for any length of time, and with a flavour totally unimpaired. It preserves pickles admirably; but some experienced housewives have informed us that it renders onions and walnuts .b.jt, but that all others are preserved in it in perfection. The proprty which the new vinegar possesses of preserving animal matters from putrefaction, explains the fact of the herrings being so well preserved after being simply dried over a fire of wood-shavings, and why all careful housewives are very par ticular in having their hams, &c. dried in chimneys where wood fires are alone in use. The following receipt may be depended upon for excellent vinegar,and no one but those who make their own can be certain that their vinegar is as wholesome as it ought to be. The Roman Glutton, who poisoned himself because he felt certain of starva tion, although he still possessed 12,0001., has been often laughed at, but many are they who are poisoning themselves out of laziness, who yet ridicule the cowardice of the Glutton. Add one pound of sugar to every seven pints of water ; mix some yeast and place them in a cask in a warm sunny place (as early in March as possible), cover the bung hole with a piece of gauze, which, if pasted round the edges, will keep out in sects and dust—during the summer the vinegar will be pro duced. According to Dr. Thomson the addition of a larg,:r pro portion of sugar is entirely useless. 2. - ON LIGHT. Hail Holy Light ! offspring of Heaven, first-born, Or of the eternal co-eternal beam— Bright effluence of bright essence increate, Whose fountain who shall tell Were we to believe the inferences which have been drawn from the language of the immortal Author of Paradise Lost. He saw the difficulties which have attended its investigation, with that apparently super-human eye with which he appeared always endowed, whether " high towering o'er space," or " plunging into the depth profound." The hardly less illus trious, and far sweeter bard, of the " Seasons," has sung what Milton had before described so well— Prime cheerer Light— • Efflux divine—Nature's resplendent robe— Without whose vesting beauty, all were wrapt In unessential gloom. The phenomena of light, which these poets have so nobly cele brated, is too apparent to our senses, too all-present, too com mon, for us not to be for a moment struck with its beauty, or astonished at its wondrous nature. Various philosophers, dis tinguished fur their abilities, have investigated its properties with unwearied patience. But the success of their labours, however splendid, has certainly not been commensurate with the talents of the labourers employed in the research. All, therefore, still appears unsettled, and though a Davy and a Brewster have attacked this unconfinable principle, yet still even the question, is light a substance, remains yet undecided. At a future period we shall examine the facts and arguments which have been produced on both sides of the question, which in the present state of our knowledge are often mutually un answerable. When two pieces of lump sugar are rubbed against each other in the dark, light is emitted ; or, when a si milar lump is melted in the dark, by placing it on a hot coal, a similar appearance presents itselt. Light is necessary for plants : when a plant is deprived of light, as in bleaching sa lads, sea kale, &c. by gardeners, its colour is lost, and, instead of its beauteous green, a sickly yellow tint serves in its stead. The French gardeners call these sickly plants etiolated, as if they grew by star-light. It has been lately discovered that the gas which is now employed for the purposes of illumina tion (carbonated hydrogene), and which is almost always present in coal mines, has the curious property of preserving the green tints of plants unimpaired after all light has been withdrawn from them, various plants having lately been dis covered growing in such situations, whose green, colour was quite as perfect as of those growing in the light. When animal matters are just beginning to putrefy, they often emit light ; this is particularly the case with sonic kinds of fish, as the herring, whiting, &c. The finest phosphores cent appearance of this description we ever witnessed was emit.; ted from the head and shoulders of a large cod-fish deposited in a damp larder, in the night after a warm summer's day ; an evolution of light took place, of a very beautiful description, and the largeness of the fish, which appeared one mass of light, added not a little to the solemnity of the scene. Dr. ThoMson, in his learned System of Chemistry, gives a process for pro ducing this light at pleasure. When four drachms of the herring, the whiting, or the mackerel, are placed in a phial containing two ounces of sea-water, or water holding so lution one half drachm of common salt,. or two drachms of' Epsom salt, and the phial put into a dam place, a luminous ring appears upon the surface of the liquor within three days, and the whole liquid, when agitated, becomes luminous. Much discussion has lately taken place as to the power pos sessed by the violet ray (into which, with six others, the sun's rays are divided, when received on a prism of glass) of impart ing magnetic powers to a steel needle, ; it seems, however, by the experiments of the Marquis Ridolfi, that this is really the case, and we are not without our hopes that this discovery may have a tendency to throw some little light upon the at present dark and unexplored fields ofmagnetism. 3. ON THE GREAT SIZE OF MANY CELEBRATED TREES. The enormous size to which some celebrated trees have ar rived is truly astonishing. There is now, says Forsyth, in Lord Dacie's park, at Fortworth, in Gloucestershire, a sweet chesnut tree 'which measures 17 yards in tircumferefice ; it ve,s growing there in the reign of William the Conqueror, "and in the reign of Stephen was called the great chesnut of Fortworth. It is known, we have understood, to have existed in the reign of Stephen, from mention made of it in several of the old deeds in the possession of the Dacie family, mention being made of Manorial Courts held under its shade. M. Brisseau Mirbel, when treating upon the causes of the death of plants, gives the following statement in the Journal of Science, Vol. 4, p. 9:— The yews of Surrey, which are supposed-to have stood from the time of Julius Ciesar, and are now two yards in diameter, the cedars on mount Lebanon,nine yards in girth, from the mea xarement of the learned Labillardiere. The fig-tree of NI alabar, according to Ramphius, usually from 16 to 17 yards round, the stupendous chesnuts of mount /Etna, one of which 11 owell tells us measured 17 yards in circumference. 'The ceibas of the eastern coast of Africa, of such bulk and height that a single stick is capable of being transformed into a pirogua, or sailing vessel, 18 or 20 yards from stem to stern, and of 30r4 in the waist—the Baobab of Senegal of 10 or 12 yards in girth, and, according to the computation of Adamson, a or 6,000 years old. All of these; giants as they are, vegetate as does the smallest bush; solely by the thin herbaceous layer of the liber annually produced at the inner surface of their bark. The concentric layers of preceding libers constitute the mass of 'the wood a lifeless skeleton, serving solely to support the new formed ports, and to conduct to them the juices by which they are fed, nor is it even necessary for these functions that this should be in an entire state. Willows and chesnuts when quite hollow at the heart still continue to grow with vigour, but in their soundest state strip them of their bark and they quickly perish.