The Sun. — London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

Zbtro . (7..:t ttt -.. n CHESTER RACES. (THIS DAY.) (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) WIRRAL STAKES. liegum co l t Eliza ...... CHESHIRE STAKES. Koh-i-Istoor ...................................... Ta,nth e .... IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF COMMONS—(YESTERDAY.) ISSUE OF WRIT FOR BERWICK. The order of the day having been read for resuming the ad journed debate on th e mo ti on f or i ssu i ng a wr it for Be rwick-upon-T wee d in the room of Mr. Matthew Forster and Mr. Stapleton, who had been unseated on the ground of bribery, tMr. HUME said there were no less than five ad un led debates respecting the issuing of writs for 4 ,! ro ughs_, and he thought it would be a great advan- Zge to the country and save the time of the house if th e theiwere all brought forward at one time. (Hear.) r. WHITESIDE wished to state, as a member of committee, that all the attorneys who were examined swore that there was no compromise. The house then divided— For the original motion 2lB For the amendment 6O • Majority for the m0ti0n.......... 158 THE ROTHERHITHE SEIZURE. 01 1 the motion for going into committee of ways and means, illr• DUNCOMBE rose and said—ln pursuance of the ,notice which appears in the journals of the house, I have t ,„° ° ' to ask the noble lord the Secretary of State for the . 4 .4.0133 . r e D epartment whether, in consequence of two infor iohs of a political character having been laid against lh• hale, inventor and manufacturer of the patent war rftket, and the first of such informations having terminated the said patentee (Wm. Hale) being adjudged to pay certain penalties to the Crown, it is the intention of her lifai 4 the'esurs Government to advise the Crown to proceed with , second information, laid under the provisions of a law as A s ed during the reign of William 111., 1697, intituled 4 ' o act to prevent the throwing or firing of squibs, ser liehte, and other fireworks." Now, sir, in asking this ques ;i°ll' I will state as shortly as possible not only my reasons or tent''e as.:_ 'g it, b u t exac tl y h ow th e case s t an d s a t the pre -o,_„lhoment as regards the defendant Hale think I 7 , 71 be able to prove to the house that so absurd and ridi c-°llB a. MSC t . th -esent was neve instituted by lkliy B r: „ , eti lon as e p- . . t h is 1' Government on political grounds. (Hear.) That noutt"Becrition was instituted for political reasons and on .86,,,,1e,a1 grounds, I think the noble lord the Secretary . f hie-',.,'1 for the Home Department has already admitted in y ii ve:ce in this house • but if there be any doubt about it, nen use only to 1 k at the leading articles which have L a - 'l e ,arcod in the organ of the Government, and certain . ex ho '43 fr ° lll which I will take the liberty of reading to the f Pr l o l ,, p B e ° 4 3 cl as ear.) The first seizure of Mr. William Hale 's made on the 14th of last month, and on the i o (h rio,,,,g day, the 15th, an article on the subject appeared la c ., e -runes, It commenced as follows :—" The British f pro:,rarnent has not waited long..for an . opportunity of Put to all the world the sincerity . of its resolution _to_ other nspitl'alrty Roo the law rigorously in force against such foreign refu 8 rear in this country as have abused the tolerant . Nsrteatese.f clri:e-- England by carrying on conspiracies against We believe that we are correctly informed state that, upon intelligence received by the S.e sioa7 of State for theHomeDepartment and the Commis be eo l l i °f Police for the Metropolis, active measures have been aken to substantiate the .charges which have long . rent B va g ll ,,elY preferred against M. Kossuth and his adhe tion ',.....uP0n this legal information a house in the . occupa earj,°,., A. Kossuth was searched yesterday morning at an sortie, "htir by the competent authorities, acting, we ptre re,„?? tinder the Secretary of State's . warrant, andhe 4 01. ' 4 of this investigation was the discovery of a large hi l : loa::) ( 3 ' f ,a,vhas, ammunition, and materials of war, c teri a ,,,• °, the stock in trade of a political incendiary, w but geotf:'Y form no part of the household goods of a private re do -ta arl living in pacific retirement. Indeed, there . is oo to believe that these preparations have been . going auy il i t °ll a scale entirely inconsistent with the notion of h os . er e tin 4., Private speculation, and must have had in view tiv e p l ,`"° B or insurrectionary movements of a very . destruc tto - e ' lar aeter. We know not how long the attention of the thg ll s l ,; ° , l ae b.as been directed to the suspicious pro?eed „oat L - 7 3 .,Persons engaged in these lawless undertakings, 4... 14 tram P almerston has shown his usual energy and . skill tort' t he evil to its root ; and it is extremely satisf?,c theao -at the Minister who has been so often identified with Grove adventurers b the ignorance or passion of foreign cons,,rAlhents shoulinow have it in his power to show, by the Gl,,ll?„us, example, that the good order of society and hot t o tulYrelations of this country with foreign States are been' ° violoted with impunity under his administration. ' for libelled believe M. Kossuth has complained of having a°r`l tithe Sit this article, but in my opinion the noble More re ason etaly of State for the Home Department has ti,Y, t 7" 4 ,„.. ,complain for I think he has been libelled -.4 ' 8 ho ' 2 --• tßear, hear ) It is only two years ago since r e 8 6 ,11 8 ?, after , long' kii iution in and interesting debate, passed a b t' of the noble lord's foreign tl-1 ,..44 1 „1, voted approbation that resolution, because I rat,,T, u .( he noble lord had taken an independent part in Zget el A to foreign countries, and I am much surprised, its il te, to find the Times eulogising him for conduct ae noble",Le r e verse. Still I retain my favourable opinion . of 4 , lie or d,hatever the Times may say, I think !tin, lord ' is u not "the Minister of Austria." (Hear.) ag a i 4 other article the Times says that the proceedings I,.ethell,Bstlthje Hales are not for paltry penalties, but are for . are :,_ 74e purposes. The exact words of the journalist tieer,„eti u be absurd suppose .. t ) lt would to that the . active and i fli t c measures taken in this Case, under the mmodiate Tr eeti cal of the Government, and by the Solicitor to he considerably more to be 1ir e , 4801 7, are solely intended to recover this paltry penalty. tit i're confident that there is are still important wit ttr., "sod than is yet before the public. if we are not . e. R ll ' Ol 3 , misinformed, there . ~,,„ ea_ivho have L I . 6 not been examined on !this charge against `• gale for he only figures in the capacity of agent and . ti a h fact' er of rockets for other parties." Well, that is •ga opinion of the Times, but it has been confirmed by the f I re h ini th t have been made at Bow-street on the part o dad h, e Government. eBa . Now, sir,asl have iiri said, Mr. Hale has The first informa iii(l tw o informations laid against h t f , t lWas brought under what is called . the . Gunpowder Act '-'eor e 111. Under that act he was adjudged to pay h 2s . . a lb . g 1,. . or 571bs. of a composition which was found on is ki , k "laises at Rotherhithe, but which he maintains was not ta—lPoowwder, and which I believe no man ever thought was orstli üb e s i t : until it b c : ame to Bow-street. He had 2571b5. of ssion, but he was acknowledged gbe ß a trader aCe in n gun s p o e wder, and as traders are entitled to ave 26 01b5. on their premises, he was sentenced to pay 2s. i4- I ;, °ll nd only on the remaining 571bs. But the truth is, r . o - n Olaie had carried on his works, had made his shells and r - ar ,'te, close to Woolwich Arsenal, without let or hind ti rangy for a long period, and only a comparatively short ta -t ae has elapsed since lie removed to Rotherhithe, and so linle within the provisions of the Gunpowder Act ; for r l e tha n ' er atand t oe act prohibits any person from keeping more 0,._, 20 0ibs. of gunpowder within three miles of the ci y j i ,; Lsondon, in case, I presume, my hon. colleague the Lord Qatlor and the corporation of the city should be blown up. tleth u gh.) Under these circumstances Mr. Hale was con \vii;tl°(l, though I won't say it did not appear very clear 114 . , her the composit . found on his premises was gun ,i3l,der or not. Witn ie e n sseswere produced on both sides. th e ' witness brought forward by Mr. Hale, an experienced 1705111gluit, said it was nonsense to suppose the composition the unhPowder ; but the witness produced on . the of d% .„,t er hment, said it was gunpowder ; while the firm it w - "era Mr. Hale was in the habit of dealing declared iqr. se of supposed to be gunpowder by the trade. Poor b ut het " the magistrate, was completely bewildered ; hie,,, , ,: wen home, took down his " Encyclopmdia Britan laugolnd looked to see what gunpowder really was. (A at n o 1 Three days afterwards he re-appears on the bench tleocow-tat.eet, does not say a single word about the evi aay.e..._.:Talch had been given by competent witnesses, but that thisl have found in the ' Encyclopaedia Britannica' bierj., after all is gunpowder, because our ancestors for the '',...48ed guimowder in an ungranulated state, and rcied,? . '',,,, hulation of gunpowder is only an invention of laaghr tit hes." And so he granulated Mr. Hale—(a lki 1 Judgin g '" --- ad hi m t o „v -e L --i us nfow dltmeg go - '4 penalty of 5/. 14s. chghwtzeu:•.)th end of State .. Pros a ecution number one. to number two. 4oellitrthe last ocecas. allo the Crown, iff n or r m e e e cF. the e to, dki the coun t__ , they iliformatio to hi h l ' attent on magistrate that there was tiY. be direct d n w c . us . would by-and 'tailed. .e , and as to which, circumstances would be W,oni d . which he would not now anticipate, but which i'-'LlvteerybinaldyPail_t another character . to these transactions. trah tid ed tn 'irr „ that the meaning of this was, that it was t Et k'sacti en , 0 1. 11 t ] ,i , 1 1 9: M. Kossuth with the proceedings and , t reat explosion was to 114( t! I)l4°° ° l l th tee ahees were to rt Hal o e f t t he a 4e g rnment, and that cir at it was %I I a dr eadin , 0 bed . isclosed, showing that there had G ov °, and th ‘u conspiracy between . M. Kossuth and Mr. like ell alelit ' their intention to blow up every 2 • (A la M Europe which they might . happen not to Ij k r as laid , u gh.) The act under which information No. h ~,', 1.697 , W as an act passed in the 9th year of William en its -It 'Plet e all d °no which, I will venture to say, has be Pas dead letter since within a very few years after Of . and b e 4 glar k lng e What I complain of, and what the people is • e arie c i Plain of, is, that a State prosecution should ro t e_ under such an Act of Parliament as this. It s 'ki t, t ill t e b , B ,lse' rpe l" LA:n act to prevent the thEowing . or firing of li N . (L i ti is _` 43 , and other fire works, and its object, as t e °4 s lin i hr Preamble, was to avert the danger to the w i t esult fry and eyes of the lieges, which had been found . ol _ firowa.l. the practice which then prevailed of letting ot Zlinf a , t Z o r the open air. The act provides that the a t ,,Pr fir ew , ‘ " r sale of any rockets, squibs, serpents, or 4,,, e ' afte rd i l rr.2 t. or of cases or moulds for the same, on tt„.' , 4 ex, o l ' 25th of March, 1698, by any person of what th,; re it!fli e ti o r, , or quality soever, shall be punished by be dp an 1 " sa v i n g ` a Penalty of 5/. for each offence ; but l i o t o ~,..g ,elause at the end allowing the Board of lo.s o k a l litja '"a443 rockets, and the Artillery Company, t hi r s 1 , 1"0: 1(1 , 1 Traih Band.'s, to manufacture and use fire [Nett Ai r. -,,:',.. , there can be no doubt at all that under tl lat. of a ;144,0.in making rockets and shells, has been Rt l iw kr. IF. 1 ;•allen. of the law ; everybody will admit " I r a of a..vi4nratrinaself admits it. But if he has been of the law, so has every person who 4cltti l): 4l° a rocket \(a have those who manufacture rockets, ol ''l te a 1,08°;Pe.....tt5, and crackers for Vauxhall and Cremorne „titt hes ion)ti'nd ll2'B man f turer of lufer Nt' Wh ° has 8 e"ntr Y• (Ileerayr, hear u , a a n c cl laughter.) I tb a lon ooder'Z' tighttho of instituting a political prose- N vliel aa t'istr a t, la act (Rear, hear.) q iNrhy Mr, Hen u f id ooce f °, and glad to il l , e °, l, traa, act ! a PPeara to hove been ashamed , of the get ridof it. He heard W 1 °li r Ito ° Pertain witnesses, ams:!ng whom were three aa Le lam 2_garmas---no not II th 4 \Leh 7eil obj ec t, 1 , . 9 n ganans—political exiles, es - ° had • ° charity in thexLash M Kossuth Li, i t received assista - 1 * t r n gli t h p l 'PPear s f rom his nee at ands. One of ig, ott ier n e Maidstone (11%!)1.n (Flefa I,,!eaclirlin i °B Pitality f or a four months on the own statement, had enjoyed ""herly e _were G orman; and to r, hear, and a laugh.) "Illaheted with the artil w hole, having been 1 erirs and being sup posed to_ know something about the manufacture of rockets and shells, were out of charity recommended by M. Kossuth to Mr. Hale, who consented to give them work at eighteen shillings a week. A great deal has been made of the statement of these men, that they were desired not to talk in public houses of what was going on in the factory at Rotherhithe. Now really, sir, I see nothing in this which is not capable of satisfactory explanation. The men might be told not to talk in public-houses, because the work carried on might be misrepresented, as it un questionably has been, for I maintain that the Govern ment has been grossly deceived and misinformed. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, having heard the evidence of these poli tical refugees, Mr. Henry resolved not to decide the case summarily ; in fact he was again bewildered, and being unable to extricate himself from the difficulty by consult ing the " Encyclopaedia Britannica," he wisely deter mined to send the case over to the Surrey magistrates, who, sitting close to Vauxhall, he thought would be good judges of the matter. (A laugh.) So stands the case at the present moment. Now then, sir, I world ask, is this a worthy or a dignified course for any Government of this country to pursue? (Hear, he^r.) If M. Kossuth and Mr. Hale have been guilty of any conspiracy to levy war against any of those countries with which we are now upon terms of amity, I say indict them boldly and openly for that conspiracy ; but if they have not been guilty of such an offence, do not rake up an old act of Parliament that has slept for the last 120 years even with regard to the making of -fireworks. (Hear, hear.) But what are all these proceedings for ? Nothing, lam sure, can be more unpalatable to the great body of people of this country, who look upon the whole transaction as far as it has gone with unmitigated disgust. (Cheers.) I believe it is bring ing the Government, to whom we all wish well, and to whom we are disposed to give a fair trial, into such disre pute with the mass of the people as few Governments have experienced. I ask, sir, who is this transaction to please ? The popular impression is that it is to please some foreign Government—to please the Austrian Government ' • and, indeed, I think we have sufficient evidence of the fact in some of the foreign journals. (Hear.) This is a point to which I beg to cal the attention of the noble lord the Sec retary of State for the Home Department. Very recently a paragraph appeared in a Frankfort paper, headed, " The English Police the Spies of Foreign Despots." It ran as follows :—" It is now confirmed that the Prussian police were most efficiently assisted in the late political arrests at Berlin and elsewhere by repeated communications from the police at London, without which many of their disclosures might not have been made ; and we see a proof of the good faith of the British Government when, through Lord Westmoreland, it assures the Cabinet of Vienna that it will watch over the conduct of the refugees ; and we learn from other sources that the London police have for some time kept a list of all the fugitives residing there, and watch over their communications with the conti nent." What, sir, must Eprope think of England unless she gives forth some contradiction of such injurious statements? (Hear, hear.) It is quite. right that the police of London, or any other police, should communicate with foreign Governments, in the event of persons seeking refuge here being guilty of felony, or murder, or something of that sort ; but the Government has no right, or the police have no right, to communicate with foreign Govern ments upon political subjects—upon any political crime that is committed here, or may have been committed abroad; and, indeed, our police have no right to commu nicate with the police of foreign Governments at all. They were not instituted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) But now I am to show that Austria had really something to do with these seizures at Rotherhithe. In the Augsburg Gazette of the 14th April—remember Mr. Hale's property was seized on the 13th—there appeared an article, dated Munich, April 12, and expressed in the following terms : - " At London revolution is allowed to take counsel and fill her arsenals with destructive weapons, rockets, Etc.' Now, I think it is natural to infer from this that some commu nication had passed between certain parties in authority here and the informants of the Augsburg Gazette. (Hear, hear.) So, sir, the Times was not, after all, far wrong when it said thati the Government of this country had been urged by Austria to look after the refugees, and that it was determined to show its willingness to do so. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, I think her Majesty's Ministers, when they are applied to by Austria or any other foreign power on the subject of political fugitives, ought to tell the Go vernment appealing to them to look at the free, institutions of this country—ought to remind them of the confiscations of Lombardy, and the cruelties and tortures that recently disgraced Milan and Mantua—ought to let them know that such is not the way to gain the affections of their subjects —and ought to return for answer to their request, that in terference with refugees in this country will never be sub mitted to by the people of England. (Cheers.) No, sir, we want none of their Radetskys here. (Hear, hear.) I, therefore, beg to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers think it worth while to pursue this prosecution any further against Mr. Hale? Mr. Hale admits that in making rockets and shells he has violated an old act of Parliament. He has already paid a penalty of 51. 145., of which only one-half goes to the Crown, the other being paid over to the informer ; and I want to know if it is the intention of the Government to carry the prosecution further, either against Mr. Hale or against any other person whatever? (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. friend has treated this matter with his usual admixture of jocularity and argu ment, and certainly if there were an old act of Parliament for prohibiting moral squibs and crackers, I think my hon. friend would come within its provisions. (A laugh.) Now, sir, my hon. friend charges me with being an organ and instru ment of foreign powers for the purpose of exercising here a foreign police over persons in this country, and in support of that accusation he quotes passages that he has found in foreign newspapers, as well as passages from an English journal. Now I beg, in the first place, to disclaim any re sponsibility as to anything said of me in any newspaper, whether British or foreign ; and if my hon. friend had had his attention directed as much as mine has happened to be, and from time to time, to passages in foreign newspapers in which my name was mentioned, I think he would have found that the weight of accusation and of calumny was very much of a different kind from that which he has quoted. (Hear, hear.) I was told the other day that in the searches recently made in Ttaly there was a set of dag gers found of English manufacture, and that the authori ties were indignant and incensed at the detestable and diabolical conduct of the man who had been Minister for Foreign Affairs in England, for on these very daggers his name was inscribed. (A laugh.) They said " There it is plain enough—Palmer and Son. Oh, the execrable revo lutionist ! to send destructive weapons inscribed with his own name into Italy." (Great laughter). My hon. friend has indulged in a great deal of humour in regard to the prosecutions which I have thought it my duty to institute. Now, I did not in the least discruise—l have never dis guised the ground upon which nhought it my duty to in stitute these prosecutions. It was not that Mr. Hale had a few pounds of gunpowder in his possession, or carried on the trade of making shells and rockets for ordinary pur poses ; but when I was informed that there was a great collection of warlike stores accumulated in an out of the way place, under circumstances of secrecy, and when I coupled that with other circumstances which tended to show that there was a purpose, the object of which was be yond the limits of this country, and not connected with the legitimate interests of commerce, I felt it my duty to inquire whether these proceedings were or were not con trary to law. (Hear, hear.) I was told they were con trary to law, and therefore I think I should have neglected my duty in the office which I have the honour to hold if I had not taken such steps as the law appeared to authorise for the purpose of putting a stop to those proceedings. (Hear, hear.) I hold that in doing that I have consulted the honour and dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) My , colleagues and myself, and not only the members of the pre sent Government, but also the members of the late, and in deed of all governments, have repeatedly declared in Parlia ment, that while, on the one hand, foreigners who take re fuge in this country are entitled to every possible protection which the laws and freedom of this realm can afford, it was the duty of the Government, on the other hand, to pre vent any foreigner, as well as any British subject from, pursuing or being concerned in any proceeding or under taking for the purpose of threatening the tranquility of foreign States. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, my hon. friend has made merry about the question whether the gunpowder found at Rotherhithe was really gunpowder or not. That question having been decided by a legal and competent authority, I think I may say that I never heard of such a quibble as that by which it was attempted to be shown that the substance in question was not gunpowder. I think that the magistrate was perfectly right in his decision. With regard to the rockets, my honourable friend asks me whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to continue the proceedings which have been tom meaced. Now I have no hesitatien in saying that we have no desire to press hardly in any way whatever on Mr. Hale ; and I have no hesitation, either, in saying, as to the last interrogatory of my hon. friend, that the evidence we have received does not bear out or justify any pro ceedings against any other person, whether British or foreign, except Mr. Hale. (Hear, hear.) But, with regard to Mr. Hale, let the house remember how the matter stands. The act under which Mr. Hale was proceeded against prohibits any person from making, or using, or selling any rockets, unless they have the consent of the Ordnance, with the exception always of the Artillery Com pany and the Militia, who are permitted to make and use rockets for the purposes of war. Under that act there are two methods of proceeding, the one by summary convic tion before a magistrate, and the other by trial by indict ment before a court an d jury. We adopted the first of these courses as the simplest and the shortest, and the least troublesome to any party. The case was opened ; the evidence against Mr. Hale was satisfactory ; but the magistrate then stopped the proceedings, and said that he thought they ought to be referred to another court, in order that the matter might be tried by a jury. Now, precedent then te to stopcomm sir, I h o ld th a t , upon general principles, it is a very bad bperfaZdthinegys coagainstmetoantryiailn.divolideuaalr: them eace hear.) It is liable to t grea abuse ; for you may begin pro ceedings without any justifiable cause, for the purpose of causing annoyance and trouble to individual, then, if, an and if, in order to avoid discomfiture, you stop the proceed ings, you give the party no (Hear, hear.) lam opportunity of stating his case. The party against speaking now upo n genera l pr i nc i p l es . whom you acted in that manner would have the right to proceed against the malicious prosecution, and would Government for a for the evil sustained by him. But thatrfea case for remedy speaking, and upon abstract prim' I be so, generally would be much stronger against the 18:s.' I think the case present instance ; because here, what wi T l etnment in the that the Government began proceedings t said ? Why, magis trate with summary jurisdiction, which were before a the case had been stated against thestopped when when he had had no opportunity of sayingdefendant, and in his defence--no opportunity of shaking the anything of witnesses, or of proving that the grounds )viden ce stated were not sufficient to bear out the prosecuti on . Th e caseis 'sent to a jury; but what do the Government then '.; Why they retire from the proceeding, and say th a t t h eir case will not bear sifting before a jury; they drop the pro ceedings, and deprive the individual of that redress which his character would otherwise obtain. (Hear, hear.) I am therefore advised that it would not be fit as a precedent, as a general precedent, or in regard to general cases, that the proceedings against Mr. Hale !should be stopped, but that the judgment of a competent tribunal should be ob tained on the matter. At the same time I have no hesita tion in saying, on the part of her Majesty's Government, that I have no wish to press hardly on Mr. Hale ; we shall be perfectly satisfied to have a decision on the law, and that decision having taken place, Mr. Hale, I trust, will not suffer in any way by having his case pushed to this limit. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. T. BUNCOMBE wished to correct a mistake into which the noble lord had fallen. The noble lord seemed to think that he (Mr. Buncombe) had charged him with being a tool of Austria in this matter. He had done no such thing. He had merely quoted the words of the Times. So far from thinking the noble lord a tool of Austria, he had always believed that M. Kossuth was indebted to him for • his life and his property. The hon. member was proceed ! , ,uIJ, - 1 boo" ki n ` l° oo te! 311°8'' ing to make a remark respecting Mr. Hale, when loud cries of " order " compelled him to resume his seat. Lord D. STUART had heard what had fallen from the noble lord the Secretary for the Home Department with very great pleas are. He had understood him to say that there was no evidence implicating any person whatever, except Mr. Hale, who was under prosecution, and there fore it followed that all the statements which had been made to implicate Kossuth in these proceedings, as if he had been abusing the hospitality of this country by enter ing into unlawful designs and preparing to levy war on a country with which we were at amity, were but baseless fabrics and unfounded calumnies. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) The accusation had gone out to the world that large stores of ammunition had been discovered in a house in the occupation of Kossuth, and the whole world was called upon to execrate a man who, after having received the hospitality of this country and being delivered from the dangers to which he had been exposed, could so disgrace himself. Now it turned out that all that wasan imagination, a vile imagination of persons animated by some rancour against Kossuth, who had always shown themselves to be in the interest of Austria and Russia, and who had persecuted that man by all the means in their power because of his opposition to those governments in bravely and nobly defending the constitution of his coun try. (Hear, and cheers.) Instead of waiting to hear what the verdict in the case would be, those persons hastened, in their malignant spite, to condemn Kossuth unheard, and in order Co hold him up to detestation they assumed at once that he was guilty, and referring to what might be called the centre of the city of London, the rooms where the municipal body of the city of London assembled, they dared to point out that Guildhall was not far from the Old Bailey. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) could not help saying , that, after the statement they had heard completely excul pating Kossuth from these vile accusations, some circum stances or events might possibly occur which, in the . cad, might demonstrate that if Guildhall were not far from the Old Bailey, there was another place, called Printing-house square, which was still nearer to it. (Hear, hear.) Ho thought that the declaration of the noble lord did him hon our. He was glad to find that her Majesty's Government were not concerned in those proceedings which had been attributed.. to them. It had been said, and he believed , truly, that the noble lord the Secretary for the Home Department had been the main cause, if not of saving the life of the illustrious man to whom he (Lord Dudley Stuart) had referred, at any rate of his being delivered from captivity, and now enjoying liberty. (Hear.) He knew that there was another Government, that of the United States, which laid claim to this merit, and he ren dered full justice to the noble feeling which the American Government and nation had displayed on that occasion, but at the same time he believed that they might have used what means they pleased, and have carried on what negotiations they could, but that if it had not been for the noble lord then at the head of the Foreign-office, those un fortunate patriots would still be detained in prison at Kutayah. (Hear, hear.) It would, then, be a melancholy spectacle, if afterwards in this country the noble lord were to treat those refugees in a manner worse than the Turkish. Government had ever treated them. The Turkish Govern ment had detained them in captivity to please Austria and Russia, but it had not done so of its own free will, ' . and its proceedings had been perfectly open ; when its prisoners went out to take exercise they were followed by soldiers ; they were tricked by no men in disguise, nor by the police of the Government. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) said that it was a nobler course to take to tell these men that they were prisoners, and to treat them as such, than to tell them that they enjoyed all the rights and privileges of the sub jects of this country, while at the same time they were basely watched by persons in disguise. (Hear, hear.) He thanked the noble lord for his declaration, and if he re gretted anything it was that the noble lord had-not taken an earlier opportunity of making that declaration. Mr. BRIGHT—It appears, I think, from what has taken place, that the noble lord at the head of the Home Depart ment has been engaged in that undignified employment of hunting for a mare's nest. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I agree with my hon. friend the member for Finsbury as to the paltriness and shabbiness of these proceedings, even as regards Mr. Hale, but I do not think that the case with regard to Kossuth is of the same character, nor that it ought to be regarded by the house in the same light. (Hear, hear.) One is a simple affair of a mischievous police inter ference, which turns out to be nothing at all, and is of a very different character from that which has induced me to advert to this subject. The noble lord says that ho has no evidence whatever on which to found any charge in connection with these transactions, except against Mr. Hale. How far he has any grounds against Mr. Hale we have heard, for it appears that the noble lord would be glad to get out of the mess he is in, if he did not think that it would be undignified for the Government to give up the prosecution. But the noble lord knows the impression which has been created on this question; first, by the statements in the newspapers, and afterwards by the noble lord's own statement in this house. Ido not charge the noble lord with having made any direct accusation against Kossuth ; but the house will recollect that in all his for mer observations the noble lord studiously avoided saying anything that could be quoted as clearing the character of Kossuth, and he left the statements of the Times news paper to have their full effect upon the world, although at the time he was in possession of precisely the same know ledge of the case that he was now, and had the power of clearing the character of Kossuth. (Hear, hear.) The Times has been referred to, as it must be with regard to this matter, and I shall make an observation on that jour nal. The Times newspaper, I presume, we all know is a great power in a mask--(hear hear, hear) ;—we do not see the hand that writes th ose articles ; but there is no man in London calling himself a gentleman who durst have put his signature to the article relating to Kossuth. (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) There is a gentleman, a member of this house, who is not now present, but if he were present I would tell him what I say now, that he durst not—l speak of one who is notoriously connected with that paper —I say he durst not have put his name to that article in which those charges were brought against Kossuth. (Hear, hear, and murmurs.) I can tell the Times that it was pre cisely by conduct like this, by which scandalous and lying charges were brought against honourable men, that the press of France lost all character with the people of France, and that during the existence of the Republic the middle class and all the people of Paris looked on with disregard and almost with pleasure while the papers, one after ano ther, were brought under the penalties of the law, and,, finally, they looked on without any opposition, and appa rently without any discontent, when first of all newspaper writers were forced to put their names to every article, and afterwards three-fourths of all the papers were suppressed. (Hear.) I azn not particularly thin-skinned—l do not com plain as caring one straw about it; but by way of illustration , only, I may mention that the Times of this morning says it is glad that I had the decency—l speak from memory—not to • appear before Lord Clarendon yesterday with a deputation which waited on the noble Lord to request that he would con sen t to the introduction of a certain clause into the treaty with the United States, when it is known that the United. States Legislature was willing to have such a clause intro- , duced. The Times says it is well I had the decency not to go with that deputation, because I had lately been defending the manufacture of rockets and other warlike stores which have boon so much talked about. Now if Mr. Anybody— I do not know his name—who directs that newspaper, or who wrote that article, were to come before the public, do you think there is any man who walks about the - West-end of London, and calls himself a gentleman, who would have written that article, and would have attached his name to it ? ( Hear, hear.) Well, I say it is a cowardly thing, that a statement like this should be made ' • and it is doubly in famous, when these statements are to be made to under mine and to destroy the character of a man suffering under misfortune, an exile from his country, who is trusted by millions of his countrymen, and who, though living in adversity, is yet buoyed up by the hope that some day or other ho may be able to do something for the liberty of his country. (Hear, and cheers.) I say it is doubly infamous for a powerful organ of the press to attack a man of that character without any ground of fact on which to found its statement, and thus attempt to destroy his character and reputation, and influence. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord has admitted two things. He has admitted that there is no charge against Kossuth or against any other person, ex cept Mr. Hale, and he stated the other night that so long as he had been connected with the Home-office, now about four months, the practice of opening letters had not been re sorted to, and I think he entirely and satisfactorily settled that question. (Hear, hear.) But there is another point which has been adverted to, and that is the system of espionage. Now the noble lord, on the 7th of February, 1850, in speaking of the detention of the Hungarians in Turkey, said that the Turkish Government had undertaken to confine them for a limited time under surveillance, a word to which there was no corresponding term in the English language. Now I wish to ask him this, whether it be true, as it has been stated, apparently on good au thority, that some policemen, or some persons acting as such, are charged to watch and report upon whatever they may observe about Kossuth's house ? (Hear, hear.) I want to ask the noble lord whether, if that be so, those proceed ings have been taken by the authority of the Home-office, and whether the expenses connected with them are de frayed by the Government or out of any metropolitan rates, or whether they are defrayed by the Austrian Government or embassy. (Hear, hear.) I wish that he would clear that matter up. I believe those proceedings to be without the slightest justification. I think what has been stated lately in the papers has caused an unpleasant feeling with regard to the Government and our whole system, that it is not so above board as we pretend it is ; and that although we talk a great deal, and mouth about our system and our hospitality, that we have shown to exiles we are doing pre cisely what is done in many parts of the continent of Europe at this moment. If the noble lord will give some contradiction to that statement, as he has done to others, there will be no member who will be more happy than myself to hear it. (Hear, hear.) Mr. OTWAY said that the noble lord the member for Tiverton had twitted the honourable member for Man chester the other night for his gross ignorance of the con stitution of this country, and had said that if there were grounds for suspecting any foreigner or Englishman of being engaged in proceedings hostile to any foreign Govern ment he would have been justified in taking those pro ceedings with regard to M. Kossuth, which had been attributed to him. [Lord Palmerston : I did not say that.] The noble lord had not always entertained such sentiments. for it was not long ago that he had received at his official residence in Downing-street a deputation from Islington which presented an address couched in language somewhat strong as regarded a Sovereign with whom we were on terms of amity, and that deputation had resulted in the retirement of the noble lord from the Cabinet of which he was at that time a member. For the noble lord now to turn round suddenly, and to speak of Kossuth and the other refugees in the tone which he had used, was a cir cumstance which must cause regret to the admirers of the noble lord. to law, they were bound to ascertain whether there was or was not any ground for that suspicion. (Hear, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT : I want to repeat my question. The noble lord has merely told us what everybody knows. Now, I want to ask the noble lord this question : has he, in his office, or by directions through his office, has any police ma g istrate or c omm i ss i oner g i ven an y special directions that policemen shall watch the house and pro ceedings of Kossuth in this metropolis. (Hear, hear.) Lord PALM.ERSTON—I have given no special direc tions with regard to Kossuth, but it is the general duty of the police, if they have any suspicion about any person, as they probably had in this case, to ascertain the facts upon which a charge may be substantiated, or may be otherwise disposed of. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN then rose to address some further ques tion to the Home Secretary, but The SPEAKER said that the noble lord the member for Tiverton had already spoken twice, and was not en titled to speak again on this question. The subject then dropped for a few moments, and was succeeded by a brief interlude about MINISTERS' MONEY. Mr. FAGAN begged to ask the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland whether a measure on the sub ject of ministers' money would be brought forward during the present session, and, if so, whether it would be intro duced before or after Whitsuntide ? Sir J. YOUNG replied that the question of ministers' money was one which had occupied the attention of the Government for a long time past. The draft of a bill had been prepared, but he did not wish to present it to the house without making a preliminary statement. As soon as he could get a day for the purpose he would introduce the bill. (Hear.) Mr. MAGUIRE said that this question had been pitched about from one Government to another, and he should be glad to be informed whether it was really the intention of the Government to bring in a measure on the subject this session? Sir J. YOUNG could only reply by asking the hon. member what ground (he had for doubting his (Sir J. Young's) word ? TheifOrmer subject was then resumed by Mr. COBDEN—I suppose, sir, you are the authority without appeal on all points of order, but if it be the rule of the house that the Minister for the Home Department can only be allowed to answer one question on such an oc casion and on such a subject as we have been discussing, I think it would be well to consider whether it might not be well to relax it in order to promote the dispatch of busi ness. If, however, the noble lord, the Home Secretary, cannot answer the question I wish to put, probably the noble lord the member for London (Lord J. Russell) can. I wish to impress upon the house that we are not here dealing with the ordinary case of an ordinary person. We are dealing with a man who was long engaged in main taining in his own country the legality of the constitution of that country, and he was supported by the whole body, not of the poorer classes merely, but of the whole of the aristocracy.. I say that when such a man comes to this country, having held that distinguished post of honour, his case is not that of an ordinary refugee, but it is that of a man placed under the safeguard of this country, the in cidents of whose life are minutely watched by the world, and will be as minutely recorded in the history of the times—and as he is treated by us will honour or discredit attach to us in reference to him. (Hear, hear.) When I first read of this matter, and when I first rea d the state ment in the Timm, I thought it my duty to call on M. Kossuth and ask him if there was any foundation for that statement, and he gave me his word as a man of honour that he had no more concern with the transactions re ferred to by the writer in that paper than had the Speaker of the House of Commons. (Hear, hear.) It was true, he said, he had recommended a foreign refugee (one who had not done him much credit—(hear)—to Mr. Hale for employment, but he had no connexion with Mr. Hale, or with the manufacture carried on by him. He was invited to call on Mr. Hale to go over his factory as I might have been, and as I have been invited to go over Mr. Colt's factory ; and I might as well be charged with being connected with Mr. Colt on that ground, as M. Kossuth was charged with being connected with Mr. Hale. And with regard to recommending a man for employment, M. Kossuth has numerous unfortunate refugees constantly calling upon him to aid them in obtaining employment, and I am speaking within the mark when I say I have had at least a dozen applications from M. Kossuth to assist his countrymen in that way. This is the whole basis of the charge. Some prying individual found that a Hungarian was working at Mr. Halo's, and because M. Kossuth re commended him he connected that gentleman with the rocket manufacture carried on by Mr. Hale. Now, I think it would not have been below the dignity of the Home Secretary, if he had given the opportunity to M. Kossuth to clear himself. Ido not think the ex-Governor of Hungary is so far below the dignity of the Home Secre tary of England as to make such a course impossible. And if the noble lord had done so, if instead of sending police men to watch M. Kossuth's house, and dog hi m a bout, he had taken means to allow that gentleman to explain, and if the noble lord had. thus obtained, as he would have done, M. Kossuth's word of honour, that he had no connection with anything of the kind charged against him, that would have been sufficient—for he apprehended M. Kossuth was as much entitled to credence as any member of the Orleans family visiting our Court. I make no distinctions, and as regards M. Kossuth I think he is as much entitled to re spect and honour as any member of the Orleans family, who are habitually received at Windsor. (Hear.) I make no complaint of the hospitality that is shown to the Or leans family ; but I say that it would be disgraceful to any man in this country, and more especially to any mem ber of this house, if he did not vindicate the right to hospi tality of this country, on behalf of those who carry with them the good-will of the mass of their own countrymen, which is the case with M. Kossuth, and if any one is al -1 lowed to dog the steps of illustrious refugees, and it is found out, we are bound to visit it with our rebrobation, and public opinion will do the same. I have seen M. Kos suth, and have advised with him. I told him—" You live under the same law as I do, but if you ask me what the law of England is, I cannot tell you, for at any mo ment some old law may be exhumed for a particular occa sion, as has been done now." I advised him to put him self under the advice of a shrewd lawyer, and I do not believe he will be caught violating the law of the country, for which he has too much respect. Tho question I want to put to the noble lord is, whether any communication has been made to the magistrates, or the police authorities with reference to any proceedings for watching the house of M. Louis Kossuth. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Before I answer the question which the hon. gentleman has put, I must advert to the former part of his speech, because it is of great importance that we should have some notion as to what is the policy of this country towards these and other refugees ; and I quite agree with the hon. gentleman when he says that we ought to apply the same rule to all refugees, and I care little what may be their rank or station. It may be a prince of high lineage who maintains extreme doctrines with regard to absolute monarchy, or it may be a person of humble station who holds extreme notions with regard to republi can institutions ; I care not which it may be, the rule ought to be the same. (Hear, hear.) Then what is that rule ? It is not so very obscure in its general principle. It is founded in the first place on the law of England, and in the second place it is founded on that law in relation to the great international law which governs the intercourse of nations. The law of England allows refugees, from whatever cause they may have suffered, or by whatever power they may have been proscribed, to come to this country and live undisturbed. This is the general law, and in accordance with that law many persons of various ranks have of late years taken refuge here ; and that honourable distinction of this country is not owing to any minister of the present day, but it is the ancient law of this country that any one can find refuge here, and I will never depart from that law of just and equal hospitality. But if on the one hand that is clearly the law, on the other hand it can as little bo doubted that refugees who receive our hospitality, and who reside in safety under the shadow of our laws, so long as they are in safety ought not to abuse that hospitality by levying war against any other country, whether it be a republic or a monarchy, which is at peace with this country. It has been said, with respect to the individual in question, that M. Kossuth was a per son of illustrious rank, who was governor of Hungary, and who had endeavoured to maintain the ancient constitution of that country. I will not enter into any controversy on that subject ; but I may say that there some who assert that there are two opinions on that point. It is thought by some persons that he fought on behalf of the cause of Hungary, and that he did all that a patriot could to maintain her ancient constitution. But there are others who think that, from want of judgment and im prudence, he had damaged the character of the con stitution of that country, and brought her into collision with Austria, and so was the author of the calamities which had befallen her. There are those two opi nions entertained, and it is not for me to say which is the right one. However M. Kossuth comes to this country and receives our hospitality; he comes not like a person who was unknown, but as one who came with a liberty which he had obtained chiefly through the exertions of my noble friend when Secretary for Foreign Affairs; who, speaking in the name of England, urged on Turkey to per severe in the hospitality which, to her honour, she had afforded to those exiles, and even offered the support of the arms of this country to Turkey if she should be attacked while performing the duties of hospitality ; and, finally, he urged on Turkey not to continue the confinement of M. Kossuth, but to allow him to come to this country. I say then, if any one ought to be bound not only by the general law of this country, which breathes such a spirit of hospi tality, but by peculiar ties of gratitude to the Govern ment, M. Kossuth is bound to obey the laws of this coun try, and not to do anything which may involve her in any cause of quarrel with any nation. The hon. gentleman says that M. Kossuth has scrupulously obeyed the laws which he found to be in force, and has lived without giv ing any cause of offence to those who administer them. The hon. gentleman is well acquainted with M. Kossuth, and the fact may be as he has stated it. At the same time I cannot wonder that suspicions should be aroused of a contrary nature ; for we cannot but recollect that wo have seen in the newspaper to which the hon. gentleman has referred a letter or proclamation addressed by M. Kossuth to the subjects of a foreign sovereign, calling on them to rise against that sovereign, and urging his soldiers to leave their colours and engage in hostility of the most deadly kind against that state, and that proclamation was pub lished in connection with the insurrection at Milan. It has been stated on behalf of 3f. Kossuth that he had not authorised its publication, and that charges had been made in it. But it is certain that when he was at Kutayah he gave a paper of this kind to a person, thus pointing out the duty of insurrection to the subjects of Austria. I say that it was an imprudent and unjustifiable act in him, while residing in a foreign country, to give a paper to any one to be used for the purposes of insurrection. Not only this, we have seen it lately avowed by M. Kossuth that it is his 'purpose to make war on sovereigns against termswhose tyrannyof amity this n h t r e protests,y; and w and he wwheo add are o t n o this that which has been stated by the hon. memb er f or s werepe su put together, f employ w ar— e l d at in ys t h nt e ho m at t t a o n w u bh f e a won deredthe West Riding—namely, that several . Hungarians con enctureall o c r netted circumstancesewt e i t nothfefho r M the sovereign. With intention of levying war against a foreign by the hon. gentleman of my regard to the question asked the can state is, that Commissioners at that the police should suspect that he had some noble friend, all that I K °Psus a r l io) of Police from time to time make reports of circumstances Kossuth or any other person, which in d uce them to believe meditated. I do not think it right for that any crime is noble has than this, for my friend said which come to their kn owled g e, whether affectin g M. me to say more Person but Mr. Hale. But I shall founded against any the hand bound • Min that while on onewe are always mean d our hospitality to those persons, on the other that there is no evidenepon which an indictment could be to eaten this country to be guilty of to allow persons residing in hon.f 'end the member for 3forpeth, that which my right Secretary, - declared to be a crime hand we are bound py: our obligations to foreign states not that is, the levying war against the law of this coun . ry— to a a _ ew words more against foreign states. wish gi 3' f when ho was Home country—than member evening has entirely Lord misstatedA L M E RS n i T e O . N The he My applied to wh a t I conce i ve d t o be th e en d e av o u r of the honourable m em b er f or M anc h es t er t o ex t or t f rom me an observations e u e e e other thenopinion in progress.as t o t l (Hearpossible result hear.) ofl theconsidered proceedings h ni t at law ask what wou ld b e the effect on Kossuth of tho proceedings then going on; and I stated that it would be very uncon stitutional to give an opinion on that subject. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the police, I beg to say that what ever burden has to be borne on that account, is borne by this country. (Hear, hear.) Th e h onoura bl e mzeiber for a Manchest er refers to statement which I made on a former occasion, to the effect that what is called surveillance is a state of things unknown in this country. Now a state of surveillance is this, that an individual is not allowed to go beyond certain limits, and he is watched by competent authorities to prevent him from doing so. Undoubtedly it is one of the duties of the police to ascertain whether the laws of the country are infringed, and if they have reason to think that any given individual is engaged in proceedings contrary to the law, it is the duty of the police to take measures for the purpose of informing the Government, and if they had reason to think that Kossuth or any other person was engaged in Moceedings contrary THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1852, with regard to a statement which has been made, that al these proceedings arose in consequence of communications received from the Government of Austria. The nature of the communications which have been made to us by the Government of Austria I will state in general terms. Nothing in the nature of a demand or specific requirement has been made by the Government of Austria to the Government of this country. On the contrary, the Go vernment of Austria has repeatedly stated that they asked nothing, and wished it to be understood that no demand was made by them ; but they have stated that they felt aggrieved by proceedings which were carried on here, but that it was for the government of England, on which they placed perfect reliance, to take such measures as they should think fit with regard to them. It was not unnatural, when insurrection was going on, that they should represent that their Government was disturbed, and liable to attacks from various quarters, and that sometimes attempts at as sassination were made by men connected with persons who are attempting to overthrow the Government of the coun ti7 ; and we know that many of those who are connected with those proceedings are in England. Ido not say that these complaints are justified, but it is the bounden duty of the Government, while they say we will not change our law, and we will allow all persons to come to and remain in this country undisturbed, to see that the laws of this country, and our international relations are not violated. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. WALMSLEY said the noble lord was ia error in supposing that the letter or proclamation to which ho had alluded was written in this country. So far from its being written in this country, it was written when M. Kossuth was a prisoner, and before he had ever been in England. Tho most serious hardship against M. Kossuth was the employment of spies. That charge had not yet been an swered. (Hear, hear.) It was a most grievous outrage that the police should dog the steps of that illustrious exile, and of all those who called upon him or inquired after him. If ho rightly understood the noble lord, he (Sir J. Walms ley) could assure him that this question would not rest here. (Cheers.) If what was stated was true, that per sons were absolutely sent to the house of M. Kossuth to assist in the removal of his goods that they might act as spies about the premises, then it was clear that those per sons must have been employed by somebody—if not by the noble lord at the head of the Home Department, then it must have been by the police. (Hear, hear.) A com mittee of inquiry ought to be instituted; and if no ono else would do so, he would himself move for an inquiry. (Hear, hear.) THE BUDGET.-ADJOURNED DEBATE. The house then went into committee of Ways and Means. The resolution for raising a supply by way of duties on all property in the United Kingdom being read, Mr. LAWLESS rose to move, by way amendment, that the words " Great Britain" be substituted for " United Kingdom." If he were asked why he had not voted in the minority the other night, he would reply that he was not only member forClonmel, but had an interest in the budget, as a question for the kingdom at large, and regarded the principle of it as a step in the right direction. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was the first who had the courage to leap over the park-wall of the privileged classes, and place on their shoulders, in the shape of a legacy duty, a fair share of the burdens which they had hitherto escaped. He regarded the amendment of the hon, baronet as nothing more than an attempt to keep up those fences and park walls, and to bring back the late Government to power, and he had therefore voted against it, but that vote would not prevent his resisting the extension of the income tax to Ireland, and, whatever might be the result, ho would most certainly press his motion to a division. He desired to prevent the late Government being restored to power for many reasons. First, he remembered that they had pro posed to extend the income tax to funded property and salaries in Ireland, and he understood that they would not have opposed the motion of which the hon. baronet (Sir B. Hall) gave notice, when they were in power, for the extension of the tax to all property whatsoever in that country. This motion would be a good test of their opinions on the subject. They all knew that at the last election every Liberal Irish member felt himself bound to do his best to turn out the Government, which, by their inflam matory placards, had raised the disturbances at Stockport, which were used as a war cry during the Irish elections. (" Hear" from the Opposition.) He trusted such scenes as occurred at Six-mile-bridge, and elsewhere, in consequence, would never be seen again. But if they were to form an alliance with the members of that Government, after they had done all they could to put them out of power, and pre vent their exciting agitation and religious discord in Ire land, the most simple peasant would be puzzled what to think of his representatives, or to explain the conduct of those who professed to be the leaders of public opinion in Ireland. A very excellent and patriotic man, Mr. Henry Grattan, was turned out of Meath last year because he had voted for a coercion bill at a time when it was necessary. The present member for Meath, his successor, was moving heaven and earth at present to restore to power a Govern ment whose constant pastime had been to give Ireland coercion bills, and who, when last in power, had threatened the priests, who were really the best guardians of the public peace. He had not voted for the amendment, be cause he was opposed to the object its movers had in view, but it did not follow that he accepted the propositions of the budget. On the contrary, there was evidence to show that Ireland was in such a state of distress even now as to be unable to bear her share of the income tax. He did not wish to exempt any class able to meet taxation, nor would he say but that in Ulster and parts of the south they were able to pay taxes as well as in many parts of England ; but he contended that the country was only in a state of convalescence and not able to undergo such a heavy infliction so soon after the sufferings of the famine. It was not generally known here how heavily Ireland was taxed. By a return recently obtained by the hon. mem ber for the University of Dublin it appeared, on a view of the comparative taxation of both countries, that the amount spread over the whole of Ireland was 3s. 70. in pound, while in England it was only 2s. 4d. in the pound, thus giving an excess of ls. 3d. on Irish over the aggregate of Irish taxation. Even in England an income tax, when brought to bear against small traders, was a most unad visable measure, and in resisting its application to Ireland he had no object but to avert the tax from those in that country who would be crushed by this addition to a- bur den which they at present could hardly bear. The income tax would not only very much retard progress in the small boroughs of the south and west of Ireland, but would accelerate greatly the emigration going on there, which was taking from the country all the most useful artisans and workmen. He did approve of the rest of the budget, but not of the application of the income tax to Ireland, and he would do his utmost, upon that question, to ascertain correctly the sense of the House. He hoped the time would come when Ireland would be well able to bear her fair share of the national burdens, but, as ho believed that time had not yet arrived, he begged to move that the words " Great Britain" be introduced in each line of the resolution before the committee, in place of the words " United Kingdom." Colonel DUNNE said, his hon. friend in not supporting the amendment made the other night by the hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir B. Lytton) seemed to him to have missed the only feasible opportunity of attain- ing the object he desired, and was attempting instead to follow a course in which he must be aware he had scarcely any hope of succeeding. (Hear, hear.) The proper moment having been allowed to pass by, this was neither the time nor the occasion for bringing forward such a mo tion, and he thought it of so futile a character that he should have, been incline :1 to walk out of the house, had he not by so doing rendered himself liable to misconstruction out of doors. He would vote in favour of any Ministry that would impose a just taxation on Ireland ; but it must be remembered that the same taxation was not always an equal taxation as between England and his own country. (Hear.) That was the position taken up by those Irish members who had opposed the budget. He maintained that the remission of the consolidated annuities was by no means an equivalent for the imposition of the income tax. It must be remembered that when additional taxation was imposed on England it generally returned to that country in some form, for the dockyards, arsenals, and Government establishments were nearly all situated there ; but Ireland had no such return, and this was one of the things that made the imposition of additional taxation upon her un just. If the hon. member succeeded in the motion ho had proposed no one would be more glad of his success than he (Colonel Dunne) would be ; but he repeated that he did not think the hon. member had adopted the proer mode of securing the object he aimed at. (Hear, hoar.) Mr. V. SCULLY wished to remark that the Irish mem bers who had voted for the budget on Monday night had done so upon a balance of the measures proposed regard mg Ireland, and the hon. and gallant colonel who had just ' sat down had apparently adopted the same course when he recorded his vote for an income tax for Ireland upon Mr. Blackall's motion of the sth of March, 1849, b e f ore th e hon. and gallant colonel had ostensibly allied himself to the party with whom he now acted. (Colonel Dunne—"l did not vote for that motion.") H e (Mr. V. Scully) was , not for an income tax to Ireland if he could possibly avoid it. But if he supported the Government !proposal it was because it would be a relief to small farmers of the dis tressed districts which he represented. (Hear.) In March, 1852, he told his constituents he would do all he could to get rid of the consolidated annuities. There were some favourable circumstances in the condition of Ireland. He remembered the time when he only obtained lls. for wool for which he expected in a few weeks to realise 235. 6d. (Hear.) Beef and mutton, too, were fetching high prices —far greater than could be expected if so largo a portion were not consumed in England. (Hear.) He thought that a change in the incidence of taxation would benefit the people of Ireland. If, however, this budget should pass, he should always consider that every shilling of the famine advances was repaid. The income tax for 7 years would realise 480,0001. a year—that would be 3,000,0001. The increase in the spirit duties would bring in 250,0001. which at 20 years' purchase, would be 4,000,0001. Then there were the succession duties, which would realise 2,000,0001. more, so that, in one way or another, the Govern ment would realise 8,000,0001. or 10,000,0001. for.the Eng lish Exchequer by the present budget. He would not run away to-night, but stay and give his vote on this proposi tion. (Cheers.) He might be told of what the people of Ireland would say if he voted against the proposition of the hon. member (Mr. Lawless). He did not care one far thing what the people of Ireland might think for the mo ment. (Cheers and laughter.) He would look to what they would think when they understood the question. (Hear, hear.) He would look into the question for them. He would look to the interests of that great county of Cork, which produced the ablest men of Ireland. (Laugh ter.) He would not deny that there were able men in Ire land who might come to a contrary opinion, but they . had not the means which he possessed of forming an opinion upon the spot. (Hear, hear.) He was sent here as the representative of his constituents ; they were not—and he said it with great respect—his representatives. (Hear.) He should like to see 100 of his tenant-farmers in London asking him to give an account of his conduct in Parlia ment, in reference to the vote he was about to give. He should have a very selfish account to render to them, if, to absolve his personal property from income tax, he e saddled them with the payment of the consolidated annuitief! for 40 years. He should not, therefore, object to see inquisi torial tax levied upon Ireland, if it were divested of its character, and levied, for example, upon funds, salaries, shares in public companies, and landlords' rents, with a due deduction for annuities and rentcharges, which should also bear their share of the tax. He had recom mended that a deputation of the Irish m embers should see the Chancellor of the Exchequer , which they had done ; and they had also seen Sir J. Young. They were told that the income tax would bo introduced into Ireland, with mitigatory circumstances, and with as little of an inquisi torial character as possible. A farmer, holding land at a rent of between 2001. and 3001. a-year, would not ho be lieved, be assessed at all , and those who 'paid rent exceed- ing 3001. a-year and upwards would be assessed at ono third instead of one-half their rent. The Irish members had also urged that 270,000%, the amount of arrears of the consolidated annuities duo from the distressed unions, should be remitted. Ho trusted that the clergy of Ireland would be leniently dealt with. (Oh !) The Protestant c lergy wero heavily taxed to the poor-rates, and the in comes of the Roman Catholic and Presbyterian clergy wore so grievously reduced by the departure of their flocks that they ought not to be called upon to support the state which did not snpport them. (Oh!) At least therotight not to ' make their returns to local parties, but ought to be allowed to make them to some central authority. His consti tuents, the small farmers of the county of Cork, should not say of him—" You have made use of your privilege of Par liament to protect your own purse from income tax, and you have saddled us for 40 years with the consolidated annuities." He could meet them all now with a clear conscience —(cheers)—and he should use his best exer tions to obtain the modifications proposed by the Irish members relative to the imposition of the income tax. The people of Ireland were shrewd and intelligent, and would be able to distinguish between figures of speech and figures of arithmetic. Trying the question by the test of figures, there could be no doubt that the substitution of the income tax for the consolidated annuities was a good bargain for Ireland. (Hear.) What he disliked in the income tax was its inquisitorial character ; but he hoped the Government would be able to deprive it of that. If not, the people o f I re l an d would join the people of England in agitating against it. It was in this view that the hon. member for Birmingham, who had always opposed the tax, approved of its extension to Ireland, for he said the Irish were such a troublesome set that they would soon compel Parliament to repeal the tax altogether. (Hear, and a laugh.) For his part, he was not disposed to give a vote which would restore the Six-mile-bridge Administration to office. (Hear.) Mr. DUFFY thought that the hon. member for Clonmel intended to fight a sham battle on this occasion. (Hear.) When the question was raised before in a manner likely to command a majority, the lion. member voted against it. (Hear.) The hon. member for the county of Cork would not give a vote which he thought might have the effect of restoring the late Ministry to power, but he had no scruple in supporting those who had at one time acquired the epi thet of "base, bloody, and brutal"—(hear, hear)—and who had never shrunk from the imposition of coercion bills on Ireland when such answered their purpose. (Hear, hear.) Another reason given for not reties' agsinst the income tax the other night was, that he would not go into the same lobby with those who sympathised with the outrages at Stockport, and who had defended the affair of Six -mile bridge • but the hon. gentleman had no objecti on a t a ll to To into same lobby with the author of the Ecclesi as ti ca l itles Bill and those who supported that measure. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Cork had told them repeat edly that there were members on that (the Opposition) aide of the house who had no interest in Ireland. Now, cer tainly there wore a large number of members on that side of the house who had no interest in Downing-street. (Hear, and a laugh.) Their career had been characterised, never theless, by consistency of conduct and by integrity in that house. (Hear, hear.) He would now pass, however, to the general question whether an income tax should or should not be imposed in Ireland. He was entitled to assume, that up to this time Ireland was considered by the Government as having been properly exempted from in come tax, else why had it not been imposed? Then what were the reasons for imposing it now ? So far as he could gather, the reasons amounted to this—first, that England never had so little need of taxation from Ireland, and that Ireland could never so ill spare it. (A laugh.) That was the first leg of the argument. The other was, that in 1842, when Sir It. Peel proposed the income tax, Ireland was much more prosperous than she was now, and that Eng land was less prosperous then than she was now. (A laugh.) Now, England was richer than she had ever been before, and Ireland presented a spectacle such as, he believed, the world never presented before, her population leaving her in multitudes because they could not find the means of acquir ing a livelihood. (Hear, hear.) In considering this pro posal for an income tax on Ireland he thought it was right to look to some of the items of their expenditure that were not sent to Ireland ; and the first he would mention was the half-million raised for the purposes of the militia, not one farthing of which would be expended in Ireland. He thought it was a somewhat cool proceeding for Ministers to ask the Irish people to pay an income tax which would go to the maintenance of militia that they would not extend to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Another item of expenditure to which he would refer was the packet service. Government after Government had declared that Ireland should not have an American packet station, but nevertheless they asked that part of the money for the packet service should be paid by Ireland. (Hear, hear.) It was said that in opposing this income tax they forgot the increased comforts conferred upon the people. There was a reduction iu the duty on nuts and anchovies, on brocade and artificial flowers, aad things of that sort, and then they were told of the comforts of the poor being increased. (A laugh.) His main objection to the proposal was, that it would be most oppressive to the industrious poor of Ire land. (Hear, hear.) The budget was conceived in a spirit directly in favour of England. (No, no.) The declaration of Mr. Pitt, 80 years ago, was as true now as then, when he said, " The uniform policy of England has been to de prive Ireland of the use of her own resources, and to make her bubservient to the interests and the opulence of the English people." (Hear, hear.) That was exactly what they were driving at at this moment. Many of the Irish members had voted most unwillingly against the Govern ment on this occasion. For himself, he could say that his vote was not a party vote. He was not desirous to see the late Government again in power, but, at the same time, ho must say, that to him, and a very numerous party in Ire land, the going out of any Government was a very inferior question ; and the mere circumstance of any man's holding office or not would not for a moment prevent him voting against a measure like the present. (Hear, hear.) He had no doubt that some few Irish members had voted in favour of that measure from conscientious grounds. (Hear, and Oh, oh !) But, proceeded the hon. member, short as my experience in this house has been, I must say I do not be lieve that in the worst days of the Walpoles or the Polhams more scandalous corruption existed than I have seen prac tised under my own eye in corrupting Irish members. (Confusion, and loud cries of " Name, name !") lam in the hands of the house. (Continued cries of " Name, name !" and " No, no !") I will proceed to another part of the question. (No, no ! Name, name ! and uproar.) If the chairman tells me, on behalf of the house, that it is their wish I should name, I shall do so. (Laughter, cries of "No, no !" and " Name, name !") Mr. V. SCULLY rose, amid great uproar, and was understood to complain of the charge that had been made ; but amid the noise and confusion he could not be heard in the gallery. Mr. J. BALL (Carlow) rose, and with considerable vehe- mence said -I move that the words - of the hon. member for New Ross be taken down. (Groat laughter, and re newed confusion.) Mr. DUFF Y again rose, but the calls of " Name, name," were so loud and incessant, that he was unable to proceed. The CHAIRMAN—I believe the motion is, that the words of the hon. member for Now Ross be takon down. What are the words? (Great laughter.) Mr. J. BALL—I believe I was strictly in order in ma king the motion that the words—(interruption)—that the words, which are fresh in the recollection of every member near me, should b© taken down. ("No, no," and uproar.) I apprehend that it is the duty of the clerk of the house to take down the words. (" No, no," and confusion.) Mr. G. H. MOORE rose, but from the noise, uproar, and calls of " Chair,", not a word he uttered reached the The CHAIRMAN—I apprehend that I can take no course in committee with reference to any language that may have been used by the hon. member. It is for the house to say what shall be done. It will therefore be my duty, if the words are taken down, to report them to the house. (Hear, hear.) Mr. G. MooRE and Mr. J. BALL here rose together, and both seemed to speak, but from the cries of " Chair," " Duffy," and the extraordinary noises which prevailed, they were allowed to gesticulate in dumb show. At length Mr. MOORE was heard to state, that during the debate on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill a similar motion to the pre sent was proposed, and the Speaker then decided that no such motion could be made. (Cheers and counter-cheers.) Mr. F. SCULLY (amid cries of " Oh, oh," and much confusion) said—l must correct that statement. On the occasion referred to the Speaker declared that the motion would have been in order if it had been made at the time the words were used. (Hear, hear.) Mr. J. BALL—If the hon. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) declines to repeat the words I will not press my motion for taking them down ; but the words used were these :—" The grossest corruption ever practised since the (lays of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish members of this house." (Hear, hear.) The hon. member having written down the above words on a slip of paper, handed them to the chairman of the committee (Mr. Bouverie), loy whom they were read from the chair. Sir D. NORREYS—Nothing is more distressing than such occurrences as the present, and I appeal to the hon. member for New Ross to withdraw the expressions. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman is a young member, and pro bably has not the honour of the house and of Irish mem bers so much at heart as I have. (Laughter, and cries of hear.) I pray him at once to withdraw the words ; and I put myself forward to make this appeal, as I am as clear as any one from the imputation those words convey. The CHAIRMAN, having again read the words written down by the hon. member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball), in quired, before putting the question that they be taken down by the clerk, whether the hon. member for New Ross impeached their accuracy? Mr. DUFFY—The words read are so near to those I used that I do not take any exception to them. (Cheers, laughter, and considerable confusion.) Lord J. RUSSELL—I beg to recal the recollection of the house to the circumstances in which the hon. gentle man used the words complained of, and the manner in which he followed them up. (Hear.) The words as written down appear to me, and I believe to the hon. member him-. self, as nearly as possible the same as he used. He was immediately, on this side of the house, met with loud cries of " Name, name." (Hear, hear.) Now, it appears to me that if the hon. gentleman meant to make a vague asser tion which he had not the least means of proving—(hear, hear)—he might be justified in passing on to other matter ; but if, on the contrary, he meant to make an assertion affecting the integrity and honour of Irish members, he ought to name the members charged with this gross cor ruption, which, he says, is unparalleled since the clays of the Walpoles and the Pelhams. (Cheers.) Instead of that, however, he took the first and the immediate opportunity of saying, "Now I will pass to another part of the sub ject." ("Hear," cries of "No," and cheers.) If I am wrong in this statement the hon. gentleman will con tradict me ; but I understood him to say, immediately after there was a cry of " Name," that if the chairman, I r the desire of the committee, called on him to name, le would do so. But, of course, it was not in the pwer of the chairman to do that, and then the hon. gentlemanl the im mediately said he was going to pass to another part o subject. Such being the case, it app ears to me that the co mmittee in general, and the Irish members .e particular, I b which the hon. gentleman is totall y unable to Tirf)ve— may consider those words as genera l words used in e ate, (cheers) —brought forward for the purpose ofaffixing a stigma on Irish members which they do not deserve—(re nowed cheers)—and that he is utterly unable to prove any single word of what he had uttered. (Loud cheers.) If, however, the hon. gentleman, on the other hand, is ready, with the Speaker in the chair, to proceed to charge Irish members individually with that corruption with which he has charged them generally, then I should not refuse my v ote in favour of the words being taken down by the clerk. But, as matters now stand, unless the hon. gentle. man goes on to take that step, I consider it would be better for the committee to treat those words with the con tempt apprehend(Loud that,s. iwhen words of this tomd r )t . L th u ey cli de s sef l e. if they are ever used.—( aughter)—it is quite if the hon. gentlemtosaimoses to go into the kindpos possible b a l r e e t u h s a e t d ; of every gentleman a great deal miht be unpleasant proof of them, he might prove thenener satisfaction to state or repeat. (Cries of Hear.") I understced. hon. friend differently s fi a o y m l N u v n h d at era th th ey od h t a h v e e b w e o e r n d d s eosfrirtibyll, ohs! " But I must may have beeneed ("No!" laughter and cries of ulterior meaning understood him to say that lies in his own breast)—l oeen practised towards the Irishe him to say, (what his liPt;ear-letliei neherbet grossest corruption had and laughter).is not t(' the op, precise form of the sentence used by the hon. member, and I con ceive that when the house is asked to adopt a strict pro ceeding of this kind, they must take the exact words used, and not put any gloss upon them. (Hear, hear.) The words, as I understood them, constituted an accusation against the Government—(laughter)—and might or might not imply an imputation on Irish members. (" Oh, oh ! ") The words were, that the grossest corruption had been practised towards Irish members. (Vehement cries of " Name !" during which the hon. gentleman received from another hon. member a copy of the words placed in the hands of the chairman.) The hon. member then read the form of words which had been handed to the chairman by the hon. member for Carlow—" That the grossest corrui- tion ever practised since the days of the Walpoles and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish members of this house ;.' and proceeded :—By whom, then, has this corruption been practised? Not by the Irish mem bers on the Government ; no one pretends that Irish mem bers have corrupted the Government—(laughter) — or that any bribery had proceeded from any of the hon. gentlemen opposite to the occupiers of the Treasury bench ; but a comparison has been drawn between the right hon. gentle men opposite and the Walpoles and the Pelhams of an earlier generation, and it was asserted that the grossest corruption has been practised by them. (" Name, name!" cries of " Order," and cheers.) If, therefore, those right hon. gentlemen, out of a regard for their own dignity and character, think it necessary to have those words taken down, and require some ulterior proceeding to be taken, that is all very well; but at all events let it be understood that the accusation was made against them. (Hear, and cries of "Oh !") It is only in this sense that any complaint of the kind can be entertained. (Hear.) If the words are taken down, let them be taken down accurately, and I am sure the house will not strain the imputation a hair's breadth beyond what was conveyed. Dr. PHILLIMORE-4 think the words were written down most accurately by the hon. member for Carlow — (hear)—and it corncerns the honour of this house to know what member of the Government has practiced gross cor ruption under the oyes of the hon. member for New Roos upon any Irish member, with a view to influence his vote. (Cheers.) Mr. OTWAY—The hon member for Meath.(Mr. Lucas) has given a wrong explanation of the words now complain ed of. The house should recollect what preceded the words N di e g w na Foss then e 8n o in questi on . Th e hon member for New R o s s said that som e few Irish members had act e d consc i en ti ous ly, an d then sever a l o f my h on. f r i en d s near me cried 'out with in • Nmveenftewo,n to indeemdake th !"Th o e ac h eu o s n a . ton m i em o b f e g r ro fo ss r corruption which, he said, had been practised upon Irish formerl,a s a y p e pe n ar ir t members und er hi s own eyes. (Hear.) Mr. E. BALL (C ambridgekhire), amid considerable up hdMa s ss e L d o u i c a a s ) ha,d r gi I up roar, expressed hi s conv i ction that the hon. M ember for parallel e l between correctan etv t n the e e present ethesen interpretationtGovern ment, Walpoles of Meath a t h n e d N p vo e i r ( and unless the charge were understood as brought against the Government there w ou ld b e no application in the words. The CHAIRMAN understood that he was to put the question that the words suggested by the hon. member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball) as having been used by the hon. mem ber for New Ross—(cries of They are admitted")—should be taken down by the clerk, and, if that motion were agTeed to, the proper course, in the next place, would bo to report them to the house. Before putting the question, he must express his decided opinion that the language was disorderly—(hear)—the general rule being that no expres sions imputing improper motives should be used in debate. (Hear, hear.) He then put the question that the words be taken down by the clerk. Mr. DISRAELI—I understand the chairman to say that he considers the words disorderly because they impute corrupt motives. It apt ears to me that there is some doubt about the words. (" No, no," and cries of "They are ad mitted.") I do not find any imputation of corrupt motives in them. (Cries of " Oh, oh," and " Order.") I regret that there should be such a tone of levity in the house upon this subject. I Say that I find no imputation of corrupt motives, but a distinct imputation of corrupt conduct. (" Oh, oh," and laughter.) Nothing is more clear than this—that an allegation of corrupt conduct, especially if such conduct is alleged against a Ministry, is not disorderly in the House of Commons. Such an allegation is not dis orderly, for it is the first and paramount duty of a member of this house, if such corruption exists, to denounce it. (Hear.) Therefore we must not declare that a member has been guilty of disorderly conduct because he has accused a Minister of corrupt conduct. (Hear, hear.) By so doing we should be depriving ourselves of one of the highest pri vileges of our position. (Hear.) I think it is evident, from this consideration, how important it is that we should have a clear admission of what were the precise words used. If those words impute corrupt motives to an individual, whether a Minister or not, I believe them to be disorderly; but if a distinct accusation has been made against the Ministry by a member in his place that they have acted corruptly, that member is not guilty of disorderly conduct, but has been acting upon his right—(cheers)—and if he can substantiate his charge, ho is exercising the highest duty he can exercise as a member of this house. (Hear, hear.) I beg therefore that the committee will bo most careful as to their proceedings in this matter. Lord PALMERSTON—I am ready to admit, as has been stated by the rizht . hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli), that it is competent for any member of this house to im peach the conduct of her Majesty's Government, if it should appear to him that he has ground to maintain his accusations—(hear, hear)—and, as far as the charge of the hon. member for New Ross (Mr. Duffy) against her Ma j esty s Government goes, I challenge him to the proof. (Loud cheering from the Ministerial side.) I want no taking down of the words, and reporting them to the Speaker. As far, howevsr, as the charge goes against the Irish members of this house the matter stands upon a different footing. (Hear, hear.) The 'hon. member has made a charge, which, whatever may be the particular words which he used, implies necessarily an imputation upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues. (Hear, and cheers.) Now, we all know that men are fre quently led away in the course of argument to make asser tions which, in their cooler moments, they would feel that they had no good ground for making. The hon. member for New Ross is a young member in this house—(hear, hear)— and be will excuse me if, having been here longer than himself—(a laugb)—l venture to suggest to him a line of conduct which I think will redound to his credit. I will put it to the hon. member whether he would not cut short the difficulty in which he is likely to involve us by saying that which I am persuaded must be passing in his inmost mind—namely, that he regrets that, in the warmth of debate, lie cast reflections upon hon. members which lie has no good grounds for maintaining, and which he would not deliberately put forth. (Hear, and cheers.) Nothing would be more creditable to the hon. member than the ad mission that he had not intended to use words imputing dishonourable conduct to honourable men—(hear)—and I would humbly venture to suggest to him, that it would consist better with what is duo to himself, as well as with what is due to the representatives of this country, if he were fairly, handsomely, and candidly to say, that he did not mean deliberately and seriously to impute any dis honourable conduct to any members. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. LUCAS rose amid loud shouts for " Duffy," and repeated cries of " Spoke, spoke," which prevented him from proceeding for some moments. When the tumult had subsided, the hon. gentleman said—l believe lam per fectly in order—and I rise merely to protest against its be ing taken for granted, as the noble lord seems to do, that those words which a re t a k en down, and which have a moat distinct meaning, have the meaning which be attributes to them. (Cries of "Oh !" and laughter.) I do maintain that there is no meaning of that kind in those words. (Renewed cries of "Oh !") The words that have been taken down contain an imputation against the Ministers, but do not necessarily imply any imputation upon Irish members. (Laughter, cries of "Oh !" and renewed calls for " Duffy.") I say they do not necessarily imply any imputation whatever upon the honour and character of the Irish members. (" Oh !" and laughter.) If I ven tured to offer the hon. member for New Ross any advice, it would be to stand upon his right and on the words which he has used—to take the words as they stand, and leave the house if it pleases to do so, but as I believe it never will, to determine that these words have a sense which I am persuaded no rational man could deduce from them— namrly, that they contain an imputation upon any person except her Majesty's Ministers. (Shouts of "Oh ! ' and laughter.) Sir G. GREY—If those words, which have been made . . . the subject of complaint, do not bear the meaning which has been affixed to them, it would certainly be most satis factory to the house to hear that such is the case from the hon. member by whom they were used. (Hear, and cheers.) It seems to me that we have engaged in a very fruitless discussion as to the accuracy of the words. .The chairman, as I think, with great propriety, before he put, the question that the words should be taken down, ap pealed to the hon. member for New Ross to know whether they had been handed to him, and I understood the hon. gentleman (Mr. Duffy) to admit their substantial accuracy. (Cheers.) Then, after the hon. gentleman has made this admission, and when the committee is proceeding to dis cuss whether, the accuracy of the words having been ad mitted, they should be taken down, the hon. member for Meath (Mr. Lucas) attempts to deny the accuracy of the words which have been read. (Laughter and cheers.) Mr. LUCAS—I beg the right hon. gentleman's pardon. I did not deny—(loud and prolonged shouts of " Oh oh !")—I did not deny the accuracy of the words. (Re newed cries of "Oh !" and much confusion.) I really think I have some right to appeal to the courtesy of gen tlemen opposite. lam repeating what I have said before. I read the words from this paper, and my whole argument was founded upon those words being accurate. They are— " The grossest corruption since the time of the Walpolos and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon the Irish members in this house." I a ssumed th their accuracy. od orris hon. member Sir G. GREY—I certainly understo ) accuracy of those words, and my argument was basec mh t e l e p aa o rth : R hd t and to deny rossest corruption had been that, under his own eyes, the g for Meath to t d h e a n t y th t e he hon. accuracyme mbar for New oss a s ated practised. It is true that afterwards , : h f e itihoen hon. member :li tt:n h g e f a o r t; e sub stantial accuracy of the words, denied that a direct construction had been put upon them, membere Ntheew Ross noble WOUld have admitted that a wrong construction had l been but the lion. member for N ew R o ss , who was sitting by ptPehealhmona. made to o him fo b r y him did not attempt to confirm that view. I had hoped t!)iradt; (Lord i n an thes r w a e l r in t e o rsto n ) a , P laced upon the words, and would have relieved the mittee from the painful position in which we are placed, by at once denying that he intended now upon the Government or upon Irish Di to cast, either be ing able to prove it, em imputation embers, without either to the Government or to equally disgraceful hear.) I hope that if the hon. lrish members. (Hear, not retract these words, he ' member fpr New Ross does he used them, or will the charges he has proceed to give substantial proofs of brought both ' and the Government. 1 against the Irish members Mr. H. HERBERT--Kear.) to this most 13 an Irish member, who has lis tenedthe painful • • discussion, I venture to remind committee of the ad • vice which has been given by the noble lord wh o l ea d s this house. That a d v i ce was to treat to come forward b y an hon. member who did not dare either to prove his charge or to name the parties against whom that charge was made, with the con tempt which it deserved . Hear," member, and (" and cheers.) As an Irish and as one of those who must, therefore, of necessity be included in the ber for New Ross, I for one am perfectly ready to take the advice of the noble lord (Iwar) —more especially as since that excellent advice was given the Home Secretary has made an appeal to the member for New Ross, which I think the house will understand me when I say would have been responded to by anybody deserving the name of—but I hesitate to add the word. (Loud cheers, and laughter.) Mr. DUFFY then rose and said—l should have hoped, Mr. Bouverie, that under the circumstances in which I stand now, assailed as I have been here—(derisive cheers, and cries of "Oh !" from the Ministerial benches) —and called upon to give an answer undor circumstances which I ,prepine are considered serious , I should haves hoped that ve l I should have been protected from such offensive language S D 3 3 ---' 6, 0° c• 36 5 .• 30 - gi ° .• 0 ,roe` ta 't cid „too' 00