The Sun. — London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

a , OW •tcr allow Comisel" to Prisoners charged with Capita! Offences. • AI T. LOCKHART opposed the motion. • - .After a few words from Mr. R. Martin, Mr. H. Drummond, and. Mr. D. Browne, leave was given to bring in the BilL PARLIAMENTARY RETURNS. • Mr..HUME wished to know why the Accounts, ordered on tie - .29th March, relative to the Third Class of the,Civil List, tiad cot been • presented ? complained that. several Ac aounts- connected with the Barrack Department, as well as cer min Colonial Accounts which had been ordered long since, had 11c , t3ret. been presented. The Marquess of LONDONDEARY said, that the Secre- Wry' fOr the Colonies Would of course furnish the necessary in formation relative to his department. 'With respect to the Civil list Accounts he had seen them that morning, and he hoped they would be ready by to-morrow. Those Accounts were most ilauorate, as he (Lord Londonderry) bad ordered the Accounts sot only for the year 1792, and last year, but also of all the in termediate years, so that the House would have a most ample itr_d satisfactory mass, of information. Mr. lIUME signified his intention, should no objection be made, of moving to-morrow for an Apcount of the Civil List of Ireland. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that there could be no objection to ,the production of such accounts as far as they could be. Blade out. NAVAL AND MILITARY PENSIONS. • The cHANcti,Lor. of the EXCHEQUEIt moved the .Order of the Day for The House resolving itself into a Com mittee of the whole House, on the provisions for the half-pay, and Naval and- Military Pensions. Mr. GRENFELL was proceedin g to make some observa tions relative to the extension of the Bank of England Charter, Then The CHANCELLOR of the ,EXCHEQUEI3. obscried, that as this formed no part of the matters upon which the Com inittee was to be called upon to deliberate, the Hon. Gentle man must be outotorder. Mr. GRENFELL considered that it was perfectly compe tent to him to discuss this subject upon entering into a Com mittee of Supply. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged to in ' form the Hon.-Gentleman that this was not a Committee of Supply, but merely to consider of questions relating to certain branches of the public expenditure. The SPEAKER also admonished the Hon. Member, that he was out of order, as the Committee the House was about to resolve itself into was not a Committee of Supply. Mr. GRENFELI. then stated that he should take the first • opportunity that might be aflOrtled to him to renew the subject. The SPEAKER having left the Chair, • . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the subject to which he was about to call the attention of the Com mittee was, the plan which had beenimparted to the House the other night by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of London -deny.) He did not - mean the whole plan, but simply a de tached part of it, relating to the comimitation of an extensive charge at present borne by the country in the shape of half - pay, and other pecuniary allowances. His Noble Friend had shown that it was possible by the plan hi had promulgated to effect a saving of three millions a year. It was not, therefore, surprising that a saving so considerable, involving a financial , . operation of such magnitude, should have attracted the attention of the public ever since. After the extensive outline given by -his Noble-Friend, there was but little left for him to do but to • -fill up some of the details, the mention of which had been -omitted. At first he would state the general nature of the -plan, and then the particular principle upon which the propo sition of it was founded, and how it was proposed to carry it -into effect. IVlueh, however, of course, must depend upon the arrerwernents made when the negociation was entered upon, and tnen it was to be considered that something was to be left to the new-modelling of the House, when the measure, in its . • details, should come before them. He thought it incumbent •upon him, as the Finance Minister of the Crown, to call the attention of the House expressly to a subject of this nature in the first instance, in consideration of the novel nature of the operation. It might be thought that he ought first to have . made his bargain, and then have come to the House and sub- mitte-d• the details of that bargain for their appiobation. In a • case of this kind, however, he preferred coming first to the .house, before he entered into the bargain, to obtain its , . general sanction to the principle of the plan. The plan now: proposed to the Committee was only a separate and detached part, from the whole plan of his Noble Friend. It- involved no consideration whatever of the important question of the currency of the country-- on which subject he should make a communication by-and-bye. Neither did it refer to another important question, on which he would enlarge in a few days, the Charter of the Bank of England. No notice had been given as yet of any modification ' of the Bank Charter. The subject of an extension of the num ber of Bank notes would be before. the house very shortly, - and he considered that question materially connected with that of the Bank Charter. Leaving all these subjects untouched, therefore, the single proposition he had to make was, to con fider how far the sums annually voted for the payment of va rious annuittes, granted as compensation and allowances for services performed by the Army and Navy, and also for cer tain Civil Services, could be considered as part of the public debt, and as Such be commuted for a fixed and permanent charge of a smaller amount. He apprehended that the public faith was pledged toThe party whose life was spent in the army and navy, and that lie had as complete a title to his annuity, subject to the conditions of the service, as regarded his liability to be called Out, and other regulations, as the public creditor had to his annuity for money advanced.—(Hear, hear.)—He • considered it as the *payment of a debt of gratitude and justice. ' in other countries the charge was completely recognised as a part of the public debt, and was provided for as such, and even connected with the Sinking Fund.. He wished, however, to leave the whole of' the regulations of the service as they now stood, not varying the title or the mode or period of payment. Whether the officer might go from half-pay to full, or the re verse, he wished to leave untouched. The whole consideration he had to propose to the House was, whether they might or might not obtain a material advantage by a commutation of the natureproposed. A great variety of the annuities defray ed by the public were terminable at a particular period ; but the -class with whom - it was proposed to deal would com prehend, as far as was possible, the whole of the Naval and Military Allowances. He should like also to include all compensations for the loss of Civil Services. Of those that would - be excluded from the arrangement, were all the pen sions on the Consolidated Fund, to the amount of between four or five hundred thousand pounds a-year. These consisted principally of provisions made for the Royal Family and il-. lustrious persons, to whom grants had been made by Parlia ment. These grants were not of a temporary - nature, and therefore ought properly to be excluded from an arrangement of this sort. He also proposed to exclude all pensions on the Civil List, and the Four and a Half pea-tent. Fund. These were funds particularly annexed to the Crown, and any other arrangement with regard to them would be of the nature of an encroachment on the Crown. The amount of the whole an nuities proposed to be included in this arrangement was about - five millions of money per annum. By a reference to the esti mates of the half-pay of the Navy, Army, Ordnance, and the other branches proosed to be included, it would be seen that the whole amounted to little more than five millions. This - was a charge, it would be understood, of a variable nature, and, being dependant on death was constantly liable to change. The calculation was founded upon a table sheaving the varia tion to be expected to take place upon an annuity on lives, founded on a return of the casualties in a number of 15.000 -lives, which number composed about one-quarter part of those to come under this arrangement, the actual number of whom exceed 60,000, It was clear that these would forma general Glass of decreasing annuities diminishing year by year. it • was calculated that at the end of forty-five years the amount would be diminished to 360,0001. The principle of the ar • rangement was, that instead of contracting for a quarterly payment, it was a contract for a term of years. It might at first be considered, that by converting these allowances into , life annuities, it was giving the parties a vested interest, such as they did not now possess : but it should be remembered • that the contract was:liable to the greatest degree of uncer • taints. t was subject to many contingencies to the disad vantage of the Cority4ctor, but '.this was no part of the case • for -the consideratifin of the 'House. It was more easy to inaicea calculation for one or two years, - where the contingen ecies would be within the view of; the Contractor. But the • 'fluctuation which might bccur in the.space of forty-five • years, could Searcely be foreseen. The advantages and disad, vantages arising from the rise and fall-in the price of funds, er in.thefrgue of money; which could be easily taken-into calculation in contracting for loans of a temporary nature, ... ;vane here to be considered. The only consideration, on the other hand, for Parliament was, as to a sum being given as a fixed annuity subeet to no fluctuations, for a term of 45. years. It was permane,nt,. Only subject to redemption. It might be • a ouestion for Consideration how far the case might have been different, and in what respect had this' been considered a. 7 debt, and provided for by funding Exchequer bills. The large • amount of the Sum.tabe provided for might attract the atten tion of the House. This arose out of the enormous expenses of the late war. One of his Resolutions would state, that be - fore the war the amount of half-pay was 670,0001. - He took this from the Finance Committee of - 1795. It was in conse quence of the more liberal allowances made since that period, that this charge had been increased by five millions. The - pension granted to the private soldier was almost novel in prin ciple, and was certainly so in the extent to which it had been • carried.' The wisdom and liberality of Parliament had pur slued this course as a system of reward for past services, and encouragement towards the more speedy and effectual recruiting 'of the army. It Might be proper for Parliament in its wisdom to consider whether prospectively the system of granting annuities upon so liberal a scale might not be , modified still, however, never losing sight of the .prin ciples of justice and liberality.l The Committee would see that it would be improper to go into more minute calcu lations respecting the terms which Government intended to put to this bargain. That must, of course, be fully explained to the parties contracting, but the secret of Government ought to be kept till then, and till the details were brought before Parliament. Having thus stated the general prin ciple of the projected measure, he did not think it was ne cessary for him to make any further observations, especi ally as there would be many other opportunities for doing so when the subject would naturally come under discussion again. He was not aware of any objections that could be urged to ' the principle, or the details, as far as they had been ex posed ; but he had no hesitation in declaring that he was deeply impressed with a conviction that the plan, if carried into effect, would be highly beneficial to the public. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his first resolution— " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the amount of Naval and Military Half-pay is about 5,000,0001. a year." Colonel DAVIES rose to state the principal objections to the plan that occurred to his mind. He was well aware that he could be but ill prepared to speak upon a subject so complicated, but he felt strongly that the project was nothing more nor less than a covert attack upon the Sinking Fund: it was relieving ourselves at the expense of posterity.—(Hear!)—He supposed that the at the end of the Resolutions was founded upon a calculation of the contingency of death alone, without reference to war or promotion. If so it was a most cumbrous piece of ma chinery. He also thought that the public would be exposed to considerable loss, calculating upon a payment annually, as the Noble Marquis had stated, of 2,800,0001. For the first 16 years, the contractors would pay 63,000,0001., and the public only 42,000,0001., which would beA gain to the latter of 21,000,0001. For the remaining period the contractor would pay 39,000,0001., and the public 84,000,0001. So that the latter would be losers to the extent of 45,000,0001., and deducting the one from the other, the loss upon the whole would be 24,000,0001. Against this, it was true, should be set off the interest of the sum saved during the first period. The main objection he felt to the scheme was, that it broke in most decidedly upon the principle of the Sinking Fund. Mr. BRIGHT observed, that the present thin state of the House did not at all justify the remark of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the public felt a strong interest upon this subject; and even of those individuals whose distresses were to be relieved by the plan, very few were present.—(Hear.)— He contended that the whole was a delusion, designed to direct the -eye of the public from what ought -to be the real and only object of Parliament, a reduction of taxation. The salt tax and the duty on leather, or their equivalent, might hereby be removed, but the payment for it would be heavy indeed.— Was it to be supposed that a contractor who would receive no benefit until the expiration of 16 years ' and whose term would not expife for nearly half a century, would be satisfied with any thing less than a very extravagant interest ? He hoped that the Hon. Member for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen) would not, on such a pretence as this, relinquish the motion of which he had given notice. He (Mr. Bright) considered this plan affected the wholq system of superannuations. Many most illegal al lowances, inconsistent with the letter anespirit of the Act;were now made; and the project just introduced would confirm them all, and render them legal. If it were carried, these allowances could never be revised. He trusted, therefore, that the Com mittee would reject the first Resolution. Sir JOHN NEWPORT insisted that the principle of the scheme was directly in contravention of the Sinking Fund. It was certainly, as the Right Hon. Gent. had said, of a most novel and extraordinary nature. But if, after all that had been said of late, the Sinking Fund was to be abandoned, would it not be much wiser and more rational to allow the Commissioners for the redemption of the National Debt to become the contrac tors ?—(Hear, hear !)--Thts the double machinery now con templated would be avoided, as well as the large bonus which the contractor must expect to be paid. Those who undertook the contract must be under a heavy responsibility as to the se curities. It was clear to him, that all these enormous pay ments must, at one time or other, come out of the public purse, and he saw no reason for not taking the simplest possible course, by resorting to the Sinking Fund at once. He agreed with the Hon. Member for Bristol. _ _ _ .e. Mr. BEAUMONT said, that whatever objection he had to the plan in other respects, he must admit that it had a direct tendency to diminish the public burdens. At the same time it was clear to him that it was a departure from the former pro efessi6ns of the Right Hon. Gentleman relative to the Sinking Fund ; but it was inconsistency th'at met his views entirely, and he only wished that Right -Hon. Gentleman would carry his inconsistency still further, and do away with the Sinking Fund altogether. Mr. J. MARTIN thoti:• ' ht this proposition in violation of the principle of the Sinking Fund, coming from Ministers was a monstrous departure from their own professions. To him it was a proof that they were determined not to give up the extra Postmasters-General, nor in any way to diminish the wasteful expenditure of the public money, in order to reduce the public burdens. He should feel it to be his duty most forcibly to oppose the plan. Mr. GURNEY thought it Was clear that the profit of the Contractors in this plan must, instead of,a saving, be the na tion's loss. He was rather inclined to agree with the Noble Marquis opposite in saying that there was an ignorant impa tience for a relaxation of taxation in the country ; for he was one of those who did not think that the reduction of the taxes would carry with it immediate relief. The plan, therefore, appeared to him to be calculated to entail additional evils on the country, without any positive good to counterbalance. Mr. T. WILS'ON said he should support the proposed plan, because all the benefit would accrue from it which had been pre ' dieted from the infringement of the Sinking Fund, without the evils arising from such a course; It been said, that if they flid not change their measures willingly, they would be forced to do so by the taxes becotning unproductive. It was for this reason he wished to preserve the Sinking Fund, which might be useful in supplying deficiencies in case of such an event occurring. This plan, too offered that means of reliev ing the agricultural distress which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had so frequently•of late been calling for. Mr. RICARDO considered the measure as a complete in fringement of the principle of the Sinking Fund. The Right lion. Gentleman bed told them these annuities formed - part of the public debt a the country. Ile asked him then, wilether at the end of the forty-five years, by the operation of his plan, they would not be more in debt than if they were to take 2,000,0001. from the Sinking Fund, To an invasion of the Sinking Fund, he (Mr. R.) had no objection—he had all along advised it. But it was the greatest inconsistency on the part of his Majesty's Ministers to propose such a measure after their repeated declarations on the subject. This was a part of the debt which carried a Sinking Fund along with it, and would finally extinguish itself. This plan, he maintained, was an utter delusion. It was neither more nor lese than a scheme to take 2,220,0001. from the Sinking Fund. Mr. HUSKISSON Was sure he should not controvert the in disputable proposition of the Honourable Member, that the an nuities of the present charge, of which, they were attempting to get rid, carried with them their own Sinking Fund; for, cer tainly, the death of the parties would ultimately put an end to the debt, but he' denied that the molification of that debt was any violation of the Act of 1792. 1-%is Right lion. Friend, in. his plan, proposed that the debt shotild still carry with it the certainty of extinction, when converted into annuities, for a term of years; and lie (Mr: II.) should be glad if the Sinking Fund, to which he was - a warm friend, was so sure in its opera tion. There were two modes in which the reduCtion of the debt might be provided for—the one the raising of a Sink ing Fund, of one per cent. to be applied. to the reduction of the debt, which fund was liable to be dealt with by Parliament, as had been the' case heretofore ; the other the converting the debt into annuities for, terms of years; which would be out of the reach of Parliament. If all the debt contracted in the last war had been in annuities, we should now be making large yearly payments, but the reduction 'would be going on without the possibility of dealing with the Sinking Fund. With respect to what had fallen from the Hon. Member:for Portarlington, he could not see how the proposed measure in vaded the principle of. the Sinking Fund. There was a charge which pressed largely and unfairly on the present tinie—it was justifiable to raise a loan—( Hear, hear !)—to defray that charge, for he admitted that it was raising a loan—(llear, hear !) But taking care to accompany it with an indefeasible Sinking Fund : Supposing . the whole debt consisted of short annuities of five, ten, or sixteen years—suppose, then, they were all diminished in amount but extended to forty-fiveyears, in what way would that violate the Sinking Fund principle ?—(Hear ! from Mr. Ricardo.)—lt was all a question of expediency. They had now five millions to apply to the reduction of the Funded Debt; they had also annuities, the, term of which being filed at forty-five years, the extinction was provided for. The Right Hon. Member then referral to the late reduction of the Five per Cents as a happy consequence of the Sinking Fund ; if that Fund had been taken away two or three years ago, there was no prospect that that operation could have been effected.— The granting of life 7 annulties by the CominissiOners.of the Sink ing Fund was an illustration of the prim.„ he bad mentioned, of tutting the reduction of the debt out of the reach of Par liament. The Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright) said that the proposed measure would place superannuations, which had been extravagantly and illegally ,granted; beyond the reach of Parliament. His Right. Honourable Friend (Mr. Vansittart) had distinctly commenced by stating that the jurisdiction of the Crown, and the power of revision in Parliament, would be pre served untouched. The Hon. Member seemed to think that the pensioners would acquire a new title by this arrangement ; no such thing conliniappen. The bargain, as he understood it, was-this : the Chaiiitellor of the Excheqtler said, I will pay you for 45 years, a fixed annuity, if you will pay me certain sums • 'which I now name in each of those years. There was in this • transaction no reference whatever to the lives of the parties, ex cept on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, pre viottsly to his bargain, would ascertain from the tables of mor tality what sums he would be likely to require. It was true no transaction of this kind could take place without an appa rent benefit to the contractors ; but the bargain might be one in which it was as possible that the contractors should be losers as the public. The Honourable Member for Bristol supposed it impossible that the contractors should continue to advance money for 16 years, without an extraordinary-chance of profit. The Honourable Member did not understand the working of the plan. There would be long annuities, a species of stock which would find its value in the market, placed at the disposal of the contractors in 'certain quantities, in consideration of their con tract. The return, therefore, would be in the same way as with any ordinary loan. He admitted that in this case the parties would have to calculate on the probable events of the next 45 years, the continuance of the rate of interest for money, and the possibility of a long war, which might depress the funds. These points Alight safely be left to the calculation of the mo nied interest ; but they might trust also to his Right Honour able Friend (Mr. Vansittart), that no unfair advantage should be taken of their contingencies. Under different circumstances, he might have been glad to have seen the country struggling against its burdens ; but, under present circumstances, they might take this measure, fairly, after all they had done for posterity.—(Hear ! from Mr. Brougham.)—He understood the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's cheer—he would not now argue the expediency of the late war ; but, supposing it to be necessary, we were entitled, after the efforts we had made, to extend the term in which we should discharge the incumbrance with which it had saddled us, so that we should , bear our average, but nothing beyond that. If we paid be tween two and three millions for Half-pay and Pensions, it would be quite as much as our average ; for the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would agree with him that they were not soon again.likely to be engaged in a war whiCh would bur den them with such a charge. Mr. BRIGHT and Mr. HUSKISSON mutually explained. Mr. HUME said, that notwithstanding' all the discussion which had taken place on this subject, he was still unable to comprehend the intentions of his Majesty's Government. After all he had heard from the Noble NI arqupss he did not under stand in what manner this dead weight applied to the transac tion before the House. These Resolutions had no reference whatever to the nature and principle of the transaction ; they might just as well have stated, that whereas the expences of the Navy would amount to so many millions in a given num ber of years, it was expedient for the purposes of present relief to spread the whole expenditure over .45 years. It would have been much better to put the Resolutions out of the question, and consider the transaction merely as the means of raising a loan. The country was incumbered with a very heavy debt, and one object was to pay off that debt as soon as possible ; another, to relieve ourselves as much as possible from our present bur thens. The Right Honourable Gentleman had called upon them to look to the expediency of the measure. Now, the expediency correctly interpreted was the economy of the transaction, and the House was bound to consider whether, at the end of a given time, the country would be less in debt by one mode of proceeding than by another. The question was in what way the greatest relief could be afforded at the least expence ? He contended, that at the end of this period the country would be in a worse condition by the operation of this transaction, than it would be by continuing to borrow money by ordinary loans.—The Right Honourable Gentleman oppo site was aware of the difficulty of managing a new fund, from the experience which he had had in the conduct of the Three and a half per cents. He was aware that the public did not like to engage in a new kind of money-transaction, and that he could raise money on better terms by the Three per cents. than by the Three and a half per cents. If such was his experience with regard to this species of stock, in what man ner did he propose to manage a transaction which he him self admitted to be one of a novel and extraordinary nature ? It would be impossible to find contractors ready to undertake it without the certainty of great profit. Now, 'he contended, that whatever profit was likely to arise from this transaction, the public ought to have the benefit of it. This might be ef fected, if the Right Hon. Gentleman would allow the Com missioners of the Sinking Fund to undertake the management of it. This plan had been adopted with regard to one half of the loans, after it had been ineffectually pressed upon the Chancellor of the Bxchequer for two or three years by the Member for Penryn ( air. Grenfell), and the result had been 'that three millions were saved to the country.— The Noble Lord opposite • had agreed on the expediency of relieving ourselves, and throwing some portion of the bur thens on posterity. He (Mr. II.) did not quarrel with the Noble Lord as to this principle ; all he wished was, that it might be carried into effect in the most economical manner. He was convinced that if the country had had'no Sinking Fund during the whole of the war, it would at this moment be many millions less in debt than it was. It was his intention, at no distant period, and he should have done this already, if he could have obtained the documents for which he .had moved, to prove, that if we had had no Sinking Fund during the war, the_ country would have been less in debt to the amount of betthen 30 and 35 millions. The Noble Lord was acting upon two opposite and contradictory principles--the principle of the Sinking Fnnd, which was to reduce the debt by charging ourselves with a greater amount of taxation ; and that of the new measure, which was to diminish our present burden by spreading them over future years. It was impossible that any Minister could conduct the affairs of the country on such contradictory principles. He trusted ? however, that if the House should unfortunately sanc tion this measure, the whole transaction might be left open to public competition, and that there might be no private favour, no preference of individual claims.—(Hear !)--He, could not but blame the Noble Marquis and the Right Hon. Gentle man for mixing up the consideration of the decrement of lives with this transaction. The dead weight of the Half-pay and Pensions had nothing to do with it, but they would remain, as they did before, subject to the annual vote - of Parliament. They did not rest upon the same fboting as the public debt, for his Majesty might strike off any of them at pleasure, though he could not touch the smallest portion Of the property belonging to the public creditor. The long statement of the Noble Mar quis was only calculated to mislead the public mind ; and 'he might just as well have stated that the plan furnished the means of paying off the expences of the Navy, or of any other establishment, as that it was a means of paying off the half pay. He (Mr. H.) did not object to spreading the charge over future years, but he wished to take 'the 2,800,0001. from the Sinking Fund ; and he was aatisfied, that if the Noble Lord would consent to do this, he would conduct the transac tion with as much zeal and ability as were due from a Minister charged with the finances of the country. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was surprised at the manner in which some Gentlemen in that House changed their views of particular subjects. He had that night found a host of champions starting up for the Sinking Fund. He denied that the proposition before the House went to touch the Sink ing Fund at all. What was the state of the case ? They had a Sinking Fund which was assumed to amount to 5,000,0001. This was to be tied tap to increase with compound interest. Was it to be maintained then, that the principle of that Sink ing Fund was invaded, because it was proposed to be aug- • merited by compound interest, instead ofsimple interest ? They then found a charge of 5,000,0001. on account of the dead ex pence growing out of the late war. This, the Right Honour able Gentleman had considered in the nature of a debt. It VIM like a debt in this instance, that the faith of the na tion was pledged to make good the payments due to the individuals whose names were on the list, but strictly speak ing it was not before them as a debt in any other . sense. It was a charge which was covered by solid revenue, and the means of meeting it were already in existence. Now he would ask if Gentlemen meant to say, that as the annuities fell in, if the present plan had not been brought forward, they would have handed over their-amounts to the Sinking Fund ? Instead of this, he apprehended it would be given to the public, as it rested with the House to remit taxes, or to give it to the Fund as might seem most expedient. To him it appeared fair that the charge of the dead expense should be divided in the man ner proposed between the present generation and posterity. Did Gentlemen mean to say the slightest benefit was likely to be given to the Fund from the annuities falling in ? Were they bound to do so after acting as they had done on the noble prin ciple of saving posterity from the burden of the late war to an extent never before acted up to in any country, by submitting to a property tax, which had taken from the people not less than 150,000,0001: Was it because they had done this that after they had established a clear Sinking Fund of .5,000,0001. that they were bound to sacrifice to 'that Sinking Fund any advantages that "might arise from sources-totally different ? He thought that as the annuities on falling in were not to be carried to the Sinking Fund, nothing could be more clear than that the present plan did not at all touch . upon the Sinking Fund. It was then for the House to consider whe ther it would be serviceable to divide the charge between the present generation and posterity. He was convinced tphenatcae.ctinßgustoiftheyniwould year o t a quantum deserve of charge reproach rity, el 3, and therefore the only question now was, in what mari ner could the surplus revenue of the country be best assisted ? He said this with respect to what was now called the dead ex e ve every to arise bearing any proportion to that which was now the sub ject of consideration, he should consider the proposed transfer of the burden as a dubious if not an objectionabl'S line of policy. The present charge was great* beyond any thing that s had been known before. It was, as lie had stated, sui generig—that he believed was the expression he had usel, and therefore poste rity was sufficiently protected against any similar burthen. A way was thus opened, which would no be open to them on ordinary occasions, to relieve the country from part of the expence under which it laboured at present. It had been ' asked, what had lives to do* with the consideration of this sub ject? He shewed that it was necessary to refer to the life tables, in order to ascertain the sum that would be wanted to complete the operation now contemplated, and to regu late the terms on. which it should be obtained. The House had now to determine whether it would bear the average ex pence of the existing claims for 45 years, or whether they should continue to bear the whole charge subject to such diminution as would occur from the annuities falling in. It was for the House to decide on this question ; but he had not expected that the moment when they had tied up a Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001. that the arrangement proposed, with respect to the dead ex. pence, would be opposed by . those who wished to pull down the whole fabric of public credit.—(Hear, hear', hear !)—How these champions for the Sinking Fund had been induced to come forward he could not well understand, but their aid was not much wanted, as without them the Sinking Fund was going on very tolerably. He was surprised at the alliance thus formed between the friends and the opponents of the Sinking Fund. Whether it was a holy alliance or an unholy alliance, he knew not and he cared not—(A laugh)--but going on as they had begun, he felt assured that the principle* on which Parliament had hitherto acted would carry the country through itspresent'difficulties. . Mr. GRENFELL said this measure appeared to him to be no invasion of the Sinking Fund. It was not more nor less than an annuity of 2,800,0001. The only difficulty he felt was the expence at which the object was to be procpred. He should defer his opinion until he heard this stated by the Right lion. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). He hoped the contract would be made by open competition. Lord EBRINGTON supported the Resolutions. If they ,could not get all they desired, they must take all they could get. As the measure was calculated to afford immediate relief, he would vote for it, though he felt convinced that no effectual relief could be given but by the repeal of taxes. Mr. MABERLEY opposed the Resolutions. He denied that there had been any Sinking Fund at all.for the last thirty years. It was a mere delusion. It would be better at once to apply to the Sinking Fund, and thereby save the expence of two operations. This would be only, a deferred payment, and no saving to' the public. The only way of saving the country was by a reduction of the expenditure, and taking off taxes to the amount of that reduction. He shewed dearly, two years back, that this might be done ; that the expenditure might be brought down to the scale recommended by the Committee of 1817. The Noble Lord (Londonderry) then treated the proposition with ridicule, and said it was quite impossible, though he sub sequently came down with propositions to the same effect him self. . Mr. 'WILLIAMS said, he was friendly to a Sinking Fund ; but a Sinking Fund actually employed in the reduction of debt. Such a fund never existed here. On the contrary, the effect of their Sinking Fund was to add to the public debt. He was sure the Resolutions now before the House could not reduce public burthens ;' on the contrary, it would considerably add to them, and that at the end of 45 years, the debt would be less observable than if the proposed amount were taken out of the Sinking Fund. They were eaten adding to the public debt in the most expensive manner. On the whole, they conceived the proposed'scheme little better than a delusion. The excess of produce caused distress, as well as taxation, that distress being increased by the paucity of means of bringing that produce na turally enhanced by taxation. He was an enemy to all round about schemes—he wished an open statement of the state of the country : if such a statement were made, the country would come forward to prevent the most ruinous consequences to its best interests. Mr. BENETT (Wilts) agreed with the proposed measure, but he thought it would be still better if the Sinking Fund, which he always considered useless, were applied to the dimi nution of taxation. Mr. 1110NCK thought the propOsed measure altogether at variance with the principle of upholding a Sinking Fund. He should, however, support the proposed measure, inasmuch as it would lead to a reduction of taxation. He begged leave to sug gest, at the same time, if it would not be very desirable to purchase up the half-pay of Ensigns and Junior Officers under 30 years of age, as many of them had now no hopes of advance ment in their profession, and might by that means be enabled to embark in some other advantageous pursuit. In his mind the present mode of applying the Sinking Fund, rather retarded than accelerated the discharge of the public debt. A proper Sinking Fund should be expended as income, rather than rea lized as capital. Mr. W. SMITH asked on what. principle the calculations were made up ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, they had nothing whatever to do with the Resolutions now before the House. Mr. BROUGHAM said, as nothing had intervened to alter the opinion he had formed on the Noble Lord's plan, he had little to say ; but he could not avoid declaring again, that this was a project in opposition to the Sinking Fund. . He did not mean to say it was a direct subtraction from the Sinking Fund, but the result was the same as if it were taken from the Sinking Fund. The Noble. Lord said, the glorious exaction was to re lieve posterity, by taking burthens on our own shoulders, which ought to fall on future . generations. The plan was a commuta tion on annuities for life. He stated what he conceived to be the bargain, and observed that the half-pay interest had nothing to do with it. • In the year 1842, the calculation was, that sup posing this bargain were not made, they would have to pay the annuitants '2,000,0001. In 1842, they would have to pay to the contractors 2,800,0001. ; and in the last year, 1845, they would just have to pay 2,500,0001. more than if the present system went on—so - that the burden would fall on posterity. —He did not at all object to this, because he had always con tended that the burden ought to fall upon posterity ; at the same time they were taking out of the pockets of the pub lic at large, at a very distant period, all the advantages that could be gained at the present time. This, to use the phrase of another country, was no more than a mystification of the subject. He compared the plan to the economy of a Gen tleman who acted upon a saving plan in one wing of his esta blishment, and with great extravagance in the ether. It was a fair balance on both sides of the account. The plan proved that the Sinking Fund must be given up during the distresses of the country. He said this not in the presence of many Members. In proportion to the magnitude of a question the Members flew off from debate. In the presence of thbse few who had appeared in their places, upon this occasion, he in treated they would not be deluded by the plans of the Right Hon. Gentleman at a moment when distress pressed so heavy on the country. Mr. T. WILSON said the Hon. and. Learned Gentleman had spoken upon this question in the most extraordinary way. The subject had been distorted by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The Sinking Fund would not be impeded. The plan would be of ultimate advantage to the country. Mr. RICARDO .deprecated the arguments of the last speaker, as founded on fallacy. Mr. HUME wished to know how the Hon. Member (Mr. Wilson) made all the calculations in favour of Ministers ? Mr. WILSON explained. Mr. IsIABERLEY said if this was so good a plan, why was it not applied to the liquidation of the debt ? If good for 5,000,0001. it was good for 20,000,0001. Mr. W. WILLIAMS could not allow all the calculations upon the plan to be in favour of Government. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to extend his credit, and pay off other branches of public debt ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not consider his Right Hon. Friend much indebted to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for his suggestions. The House had been told how Honourable Members ought to do their duty in Parliament. He very much doubted whether coming down to the House about nine o'clock, when Gentlemen had just taken a good dinner, was the correct point of duty. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had entered the House at that time to mistify and obstruct the course of public discussion. There certainly could not be - a better example of' irregular attend ance, than coming down at nine o'clock to complain of the absence of others who had taken share in the debate at the commencement, and had left the House.—(A laugh.)—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had come to interrupt the argu ment of his Hon. Friend, which was appreciated by the House, when the Hon. and Learned Member was enjoying the plea sures of the table.—(A laugh.)—His Right Hon. Friend had given ample explanation, but the Hon. and Learned Member did not hear it. The suggestion of the Hon. and Learned - Gentleman applying the new plan to the general Pension List would not be attended with benefit. Did the Honourable and Learned Member never hear of the market being overloaded by excess of commodity ? Ilis Right-Hon. Friend knew too much of his own business to be tempted by the recommenda tion of any Hon. Member to go with 15 or 20;000,0001. of stock into the market. The Noble Mar9uis recommended the Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman, if he was desirous of assist ing in the execution of public business, and doing his duty faithfully, to attend at five o'clock, and hear the argument, and not confuse the debate by, reading lectures to Hon. Mem bers, who, having discharged their duty, had left the House, before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman mile. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he did not doubt the Noble Lord would have, been glad to find him 'absent during the whole de bate; but the truth was, he was in the House at five o'clock, and remained till half-past six. Seeing then there was no prospect of the subject coming on, he retired for a short period of time.—(A laugh.)—He believed he was not absent, more than two hours and a half—(Laughter)and during that time, he left his Hon. Friend the Member . for Worcester, who he was sure would not suffer the debate to lose any thing by his temporary absence. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I should have lost nothing by it.--(A laugh !) Mr. HUSKISSON did not wish to prolong the debate, but as the Honourable and Learned Member said he was absent, leaving the Members for Portarlington and Worcester to take care of the debate, he would first inform the House what the Hon. Member for Worcester said. The Hon. Member who was to take rare of the debate said he knew nothing about it.— (Loud laughter.) 111 r. HUME said the Right Hon. Member had dealt hardly with the Member for Worcester, who only made a mistake in one particular—(A laugh.)—He might ask who could avoid falling into a mistake on a subject so mysterious? Mr. BROUGHAM then said he had received no answer to his question respecting the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make the plan extend to other branches of public debt and expenditure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER......." If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had attended at , the commence ment of the debate, he would have known my reasons for not making it extend beyond the object in view." The Resolution was then agreed to. The third and fourth Resolutions were carried without op position. Upon the fifth, to empower the Treasury to contract with any Corporate Body or others for carrying the plan into effect, Mr. Hu ME moved an Amendment, giving the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund the power to contract instead of the Treasury. After some conversation between Mr. HUME, Mr. MasEit- LEY, Mr. W. S➢wrn, and Mr. P. GRENFELL ; Mr. BRIGHT considered the question so important that it ought to be discussed, and therefore moved to report progress- The Hon. Member soon after withdrew his motion, and as Mr. Hume did not insist on his amendment, the resolution Was agreed to. The House then 'resumed, and the Report' was ordered to be' received to-morrow. SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply, in which the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the sum of 39,0001. British, -be granted to his Majesty to pay off the Irish Five per Cent. Holders, who had not taken Four per Cent- Stock. The sum was voted. Mr. HUME asked whether it was intended to pay off All contracts bearing five per cent. interest ? It w as i mprovident to pay five per cent. when money could be obtained for four per cent. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that, • with some exceptions, these contracts had been paid off. The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to, be I received on Monday. Mr. HUIIIE asked whether the 'accounts between the Est India Company and Government were to be laid on- the Table ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the ac' counts would be laid on the table when ready. They were at that time under examination. The House then Adjourned at ONE O'CLOCK. SPORTING INTELLIGENCE. BURTON WELLS RACES. These Races, which commenced on Tuesday, in Bull Marsh Meadows, Hants, were well attended. The Burton Hunt Stakes of sgs each, two miles, weight, lis t " Mr. Goodyear's Fame - _ - -. 1 I Captain Hanson's Susan - - - - 4 Mr. Bouverie's Frolic - ~ - - 2 3 Mr. Horn's Radical - - - 3 4 Mr. Benson's Logic - - - - sdr Three ran out of the Course and were distanced ; Susan the favourite. The Farmers' Plate-of 501.—Heats. Mr. Goodchild's br. h. _ _ 3 1 Mr. Archer's Buckle - Mr. Hansard's John - - - 4 - - . 1 3 Ar Mr. Goddard's gr. m._ _ _ _ 2 4 . - - A good race for every heat.—Rode by owners. --... THE TWO GREAT PEDESTRIAN UNDERTAKING' Blakesley, the Yorkshire pedestrian, who started from 1 4 ° 11 ; don on Tuesday to go to Exeter by a ci rcu it ous rou t e , inakTa 380 miles in six days, reached through A n d over , three nw— over his day's ground, at half-past ten o'clock on the first day After resting four hours, he pursued his course through Sa 11 1; bury, at six in the morning, and finished his second o .'o' s work at Gladstone, 139 miles, at eleven at night. He W a proceeding to Exeter at eleven o'clock yesterday morning:;i The match is for 200 guineas, and the pedestrian is bac at 6 to 4. Mr. Topping, a' farmer, who started from Oakinghatn o r Monday morning, to go 75 miles a day for foursuccessive si ; for a bet of 100 guineas, resigned his task after doing 47 11114 0 on 'Wednesday. lie performed well the first two days, but 0 the third his legs got uneasy, and he at length was too lane t ° proceed. FROM TUESDAY NIGHT'S GAZETTE' DIVIDENDS. • 21. May 23. G. Thomas, Bristol, turpentine-distiller.Analvie, T. Bagnall, Birmingham, toy-maker--May 25. J. f. v i e rs Pall-mall, fancy-paper-manufacturer—May 25. B. „, 'and J. Esdaile, jun. Queen-street, Cheapside, sugar-deal,e'v, May 21. W. Lagemann, Tower-hill, merchant—May 7. Latham and J. Parry, Devonshire-square, me r chants-- 3 1 1 28. G. Turner, Liverpool, merchant—May 25. J. Heath Charnock, Lancashire, cotton-manufacturer-Jan e J. Pitts, Hereford, timber- de aler_—June 5. J. Davies, f ford, cabinet-maker—May 22. T. Mann, Raistrick, shire, merchant—May 21. J. Carr, Savannah, North Am rica, and D. R. Tetley, Armley, Yorkshire, merchants—'W, 21. J. Levi, Wells, Norfolk, cabinet-maker—May 27., r . Bibby, Liverpool, merchant—May 24. T. Burlingham, Iv ° tester, glOVer—May 23. J. Blakeway, sen. an d R. Bla k e y jun. Bilston, Staffordshire, grocers—May 24. T. and 1. 11 licar, Bristol, merchants. CERTIFICATES.—MAY 21. R. Matson, Barfristone, Tient, miller—J. Mounsher, Leg: nard-street, Finsbury-square, merchant—T. C. B a il e y, la ce , street, Cheapside, warehouseman—P. R. L ew i s , Bath-Pite: New-road , trimming-manufacturer—J. Connor, Lime- 8 %0 soap-maker--J. Pollock, Adam's-court, Broad -street, mem' , s , —S. Williams, Bristol, apothecary—J. Hort, Great St. II elel! coal-merchant--Mr. Carter, jun. of Nuneaton, Viraryrickshil silk-manufacturer. PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. W. Simpson and E. Earles, High-street, Shoreditch, ba be" dashers—J. Young and C. Stainbank, Change-Mley, brokers—J. Shanklin, T. Balmer, J. Aldersey, M. Na.: d j. and R. Thompson, Liverpool, canal-carriers (as to the s 3 Aldersey)—T. George and A. Williams, Newport, Monttl2l2j, shire, coal-merchants—J. Lowry and G. Sowerby, Gate f B ', e : to - Durham, manufacturers—T. Barron and T. Young, u" ford Briggs, Lincolnshire, braziers—J. Cooper and • •e- Sheffield, drapers—J. and W. Harrison, Little W Moorfields, i" terinary-surgeons—P. Massey, jun. and C. G. Hill, ~,„09 blue-manufacturers—W. Scott, J. Crosbie, and W. P — test Reading, Berkshire—E. Wallis and J. Thornham, Scolcfo, Yorkshire, whalebone-cutters—T. Lansell and W. T. Ma i rdipst High-street, Margate, grocers—W. Nelson and J. P King's Arms-yard, Coleman-street, packers. COAL-MARKET, MAY 1. Ships at Marliet. Ships sold p r ice. 109 Newcastle - - 81 -30 s Od W 405 pd 25 Sunderland - - 24 -31 s 6d to 4t5....„. BIRTHS. Char les Yesterday, at Walthamstow , Essex, the Lady of Robinson, Es.q. F enchurch-street, of ,a son. !are , Yesterday, in the Lady of John Te es 4 Esq. of a son. v e ritY , On Tuesday, in Bolton-street, the Lady of-Richard Esq. of a daughter. , MARRIED. raf , G On the 30th ult,, at St. Mary's, Newipgton, Mr. E . of Hopkins, to the eldest daughter of E. H. Chck, Es s i'' Penton-house. d the Yesterday, at Chiswick Church, Peter Cloves, Esq;/4„ l icr" Commercial-road, to Mary, only daughter of Samuel ing,.Esq., of Sutton-court. Co t y On Monday, the 29th of April, at Nantwich, in th e ant. - of Chester, the Rev. Richard Henry. Gretton, Redo of 4 ' " ettoo, with, and second sort of the late Very Rev. George —r,. l a te D.D. Dean of Hereford; to Frances, fifth daughter of the John Bennion, of Charlton, in the same county, Es+ wife of DIED. In March last, at St. Petersburgh, Lady Crown, ._ st y's Vice-Admiral Sir Robert Crown, in his Imperial Nkl" Service. at Faris , On the 25th of April, in the 62d year of his age, cottage, B. S. Smythe, Esq., of Piccadilly, and Urstbarres Surrey. the On Monday last, at Seighford, near Stafford, Itiarlall' wife of the Rev. T. W. Richards. Printed and Published for the PROPRIETOR S, the Sli rr Office, No. 112, Strand, by J. B. CARSTAIRS. ~, t