The Sun. — London, England, 1804-06-12 00:00:00

inR -ncteti from the purest ntivtts, hiving been un. connrered either with the Borough or with either of the CanditLites. IVIr. GREGOR corroborated the statement of his If,nourabie Colleague and Friend, in fayourof Mr. DAm F N. A conversation ensued, in which Mr. FIOT.LAND and Mr. SHERIDAN resisted the IVlcitian-i which was supported by Mr. CHARLES W. WYNNE, Mr. ODELL, Mr. MARTIN, Mr. BANKES, and the SE CR ETARy at WAR jlllr. Wm..Dut.:Da.s), and finally . (ar , r—ed to, without a division. Mr. ROSE then ninired, that Mr. JOHN DAMEN be taken into the custody of the Seltant at Arms ; to which notice' Sir Wtt.LfAm LFlt:ml moved an. Amendment, that Mr. DAmEN be'brought to the Bar to be re ptimanded. - Another conversatic,n ensued, which terminated in the Amendment being withdrawn, and the MJ t ion being agreed to, without :my division. ACCOUNTS RELATIVE TO THE• SLAVE TRADE. Mr. DEVER*L, pursuant to notice., rose to move that there be laid before the 1-inuse, an Account of the-Amount of Duties levied crt:OleitnportatiA of ShVes into the West Indies, and of the apprapria, ti ;n: His objett in moving fSr this Accouta he st ,, A to b; tu - eq . ahli'sh'ihe-prnpriery of deferring the further progress -of the BO! Ifi'the Abolition of the Slave Trade till next Session, by spewing that His Majesty's interests might ,be ed by the operation of the measure, which, in that . case, should nut have been introduced iVith'ont the consent of the Crown, and that it would at least he necessary to u ait till the Account 'could be obtained from the, Islands, in cider to ascertain whether the. Duties, which in tile ,Island of Jamaica amounted 31. per head on each Slave. imported, had not b..en appro priated to specific purposes, suppose for the support of Charitable Institutions, which by the total Abo. lici ,n of the Trade, tvonld be deprived of their pro v isinn. The Hon. Member-was-proceeding to urge considerations, which being construed as 'applying t 6 the principle of the . Bill, he was 'Called to Order by Mr, WILBERFORCE. After a . ,short conversa tion on the point of. Order, the-Motion was put for an Account of the Amount of the Duties for the two years preceding the ist January, 1804., and agreed to. IRISH ACCOUNTS. Mr. JAMES FITZGERALD, pursuant to, notice, af. ter a few introduclory observations, moved, that there he laid before the House: A Return of the Names of the Commissioners appointed, under an Ad of the Irish Parliament, for granting Allowances to Cities, Towns, and 80. rou t As, which sustained any injury by not return. ing ' Members to Parliament, under the Ad of Union, and f,r granting Compensation to certain Officers, together with the Amount of the Salaries - of said Commissioners, and of other Officers appointed for carrying said Ads into execution.' Also an ,Account of the. particulars of sa id C om , r ensations, distinguishing the Dates of the Patents, the names of those to whom granted, and the Amount of the Grants. Also a Return of the Proceedings of said Commissioners, of the Claims preferred, and of the times of preferring them, Also.a Return of the -Offices and Employments granted by Patent, or by 'Warrant of the Lord .I..atitenanr, from the first of lin. 1800, to the first of June 1804, specifying the Salaries'and Funds on which charg-cd. Also an Account of the Charges upon the Cons°. idated Fund'in Ireland, exclusive of Charges for the National Debt, from the ist of Jan. 1789, to 'the Ist of Tin. 1804, nsPecifying the date of the Charges, the Persons for - whom, by name, and by , what authority. Also an Account of the S,larles and Compensa tioas to the Officers of the late Ordnance Depart_ inept in Ireland, front the ist of Jan. 1789, to the Ist of June 1804. And an Account of the Salaries granted to the Officers for Managing the Inland Navigation in Ireland, specifying the Salaries and Expences ; and also setting forth the Warrant and Authority by which they were granted. The Accounts were severally ordered. CAPE qF GOOD HOPE. • Sir Wm. PULTENEY moved, that there be laid before the House, ,an 'Account of the Expences that had been incurred, in maintaining possession of the Cape of Good Hope; from the time it had been taken by our Troops, till it was surrendered after the Peace, together with the ,Expences, of maintaining "His Majesty's Forces there, and the Amount of the Revenues during that period .-- Ordered. Mr. ROSE called the attention of the House to the case of the. Member , who had accepted the place of Prothonotary of the Common Pleas in the Dutchy of L4qqaster. After : few observations from Mr. ROSE and Mr. C. W. WYNNE, the Copy of the Grant of the Place to J. C. VILLIERS was ordered to be laid before the fi6use. VOLUNTEERS. Mr. EYRE called the attention of the CHANCEL.. LoR of the EXCHEQUER to the Case of those Vo.: lunteers who bad gone on Permanent Duty, pre irious to the passing of the late Volunteer Ad, by the provisions of which, their Families were pre_ Vented from receiving that Provision whickhad been held but to them. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured the Hon. Member, that every attention should be paid to the Cases to'‘vhich he alluded, if he would have the goodness to communicate them. The second reading of the WO lien Manufac turers' Bill was put off till WednestLey n(xt. ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL. The CHANCELL',I; of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day, for the House to 'go into a t:nmittee on the Additional Force Bill.—On the Question that the SPEAKER do leave the Chair, Mr. JEKYLL' said, he felt it a duty imposed on him, as a Member of that House, to oppose the Mo tion now made by the Hon. Gentleman. . Plans of Various kinds had been proposed to the House, for putting the' C.: unity into - a state of defence, and these Plans have been, one after another, negletted. H e h a d flattered himself,,however, 'that from the ialentof- the Right Hon. Gentleman, great things v.,-eic to ;be exPetted,',and, that a Plan would- have • ',lapsed that would have been satisiadar7 to •, •. ;: the House; but in this respes he had been miserably disappointed. The Phm' proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, -possessed no feature of novelty, but one, and th a n had been-alnshst universally de precated: :he m eant t h e ' app Ointment of Pa r i s h OffieErs to raise Recrui ts . He would eppeal to the Judges of the Circuit, to Gentlemen in elle COuntry, and such Of this House as were acquainted with the b - mntry, -- if such a scheme could ever be pradicable, and if' it would nit be attended' with the great est evils ?. It was laying new burdens on the Parishes, notwithstanding that their burthens were already so great„'ilian.•they - i were scarcely competent to them. But it was doing injustice, besides, toindividuals,Who would be compelled to pay fines in ease of any failure in the. number of Recruits, though they may have •already entered into engagements to find Substitutes for - the. Militia w Army ok.Reserve. Persons would thus be compelled to contribute,a second tithe. He had had an anonymnus paper lately put into his hand, which gave a yell; fair - statement -of these ineon venjencies. It related to an indiVidual who had *been balloted twelve mootlis - ago, and who had paid 301. fora SUbstitote, on enndition of being clear for Jive years. .He complained,' therefore, that a new Bill was 'coming' into Parlianient; to expose him equally with those who have found no Substitutes. Tile Hon. Gentleman then adverted to those who had entered, the Volunteer Corps. Many might re sign when the ballot was no longer a check on them ; while those who had entered, and whO might dontinue in such Corps from the highest principles of honour, would be subjeded to the inconveniencies Of contributing to fines levied on their ,slistrid equally with those' Who had abandoned their Corps and retired from' the service. Mr. P. 11.10021% thought it was the most alarm. ing Bill that had ever been introduced into that ,Houses He considered it in a political light, as threatening the liberties of the Subject. As a tem porary measure, it might, perhaps, be admitted frog) necessity ; but as a permanent measure, as it was proposed to be, it ought to be opposed by every .friend to his Country. The House of Commons in former periods of our history, had shewn a ,laud. able jealousy in this, resped. After the Rebellion in the year 1688, under the Duke of Monmouth, al though the Militia had performed their duty, yet it was stated from the Throne that the Militia was not sufficient for the protedion of the Country, but that . a hired Standing Army was absolutely neces sary. Let us look to our ancestors, in this instance, for an example. - They advised the Committee to disband the Regular Forces, and to render the Mi litia more competent for the purpose required.— They even required the Crown Officers to bring in a Bill for the purpose. The Bill now proposed was calculated, he said, to subvert the Constitution, as it was to be raised independent of Parliament, and intended to be permanent. But where, he asked, was,the necessity for such a measure, suppose it were to succeed to th e most sanguine expectationsof its framers ?—France was in such a situation, that it would be folly to think of making any im- Tression on her by Land Forces. The forces we had already of this description, were completely idle; for our Navy took care, and he , lioped ever would take care, that they should be so. Our present force, taking in its various descriptions, he stated to be not less than 822,030 Military and Marine. He thought, by this force, every object might be gained. Mr. .111'N AUGHTEN could not discover any si milarity between the circumstances of the present times and the circumstances of the year 1685. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, had talked much of that unconstitutional reig n an d those de. testable times; and in jumping over a Century, had attacked the Right Hen, Gentleman on the floor, (the CHANCELLOR of the Exclistousa), by making a comparison between him and James 11. How ever such speeches might ; answer Party views in the House, he should be:glad if any. Hon. Member would state what effed they would be likely to prod uce out of doors. The Hon. Gentleman had talked o f Standing Armies a s likely to overthrow the Con stitution ;' but whatever might have been the case in other times, a ilarge- Standing Army was now the only means of security fOr the Constitution % against the attempts of an upstart Usurper. The Hon. Gen. tleman had laid much stress on the Establishmennof a Permanent Army, but did he forget that we-had the Annual Motiny Bill, which afforded us -the means of putting a stop to su4li a Force at once ? He was sorry to take up the attention of the House, but after the discussion that had taken place on Friday, after a majority of the House had decided that the Bill should be read a second time, and should go into .a Committee, he could not but consider any opposition to the SPEAKER'S leaving the Chair as proceeding from, factious and vexatious motives (a cry of Order), as a violent attempt on the part of the Gentlemen on the other side of the House, to embarrass His Ma. 'jesty's Ministers. Lord TEMLE here called the Hon. Gentleman to Order, as having no title to introduce motives into any question of thisikind. The SrE AK E R stated, that any personal refl,e6lions were certainly out of order, but general allusions were admissible. Sir W. GEARY and Sir W. YOUNG, and the CHAN. CELLOR of the EXCH EQUER, also spoke to Order, when The SPEAKER informed the Honourable Gentle man (Mr. M`NAUGUTEN), that he should avoid ali , personalrefleet ions. - Mr. M'NAUGHTEN concluded by giving }lli warmest support to . the Bill. Col. CR]iUFORD expressed his eager desire, that the Regular Army should be considerably in.. creased, and therefjre thought it incumbent upon him to state the reasons why he was averse to a mea .sure, the professed objet of which was the augmeq ration of the Regular Army. The only hopes of a secure and permanent' Peace, were founded upon a Redun ion of the "Power of Friince, and of her in.. fluence • upon the Continent ; but in order to effeet . this, some means far more efFeCtual than anrthat . were now propoSed must be adopted. But his great objeClion' to the measure was, thatit wOuli not ul timately add a man to the Army, excep t b y m e ans the 'most detestable that could be conceived ; and the men too that would be procured by thesem:ans, would be the very worst of the Coinm u „i ty .. would licit take the titre of the,E.lalLe ici cote- vote. meeting, at,any length, on the Plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman, nor on the readiness with which he had abandoned one of the principal features of his former Plan, viz, the Ballot. He was notsurprized at this : on the contrary, his great surpiize was, that a person of his talents should ever have thought of persisting in so very improper a mode of raising Soldiers. He was glad that the information the Right Hon. Gentleman had received from Papers Which had been brought before the House by some Hon. Friends of his, had induced him to abandon that part of his original Plan. He did not, how ever, blame those who of late made so much use of the ; for, perhaps, it might he expedient to have recourse, in particular situations, to this me. thod of raising mere, upon a peculiar and sudden emergency. However, if all competition were de stroyed, and the Plan proposed by his Right Hon. Friend below him (Mr. WINDHAM), should be adopted, which, in his opinion, was the only good Plan .for raising a sufficient, -number of Troops for the Army, then no compulsion, he was persuaded, would be necessary, even, in these extraordinary times. - But if it was necessary to use compulsion, he. thought that Conscription ,ought to he resorted to, in preference to the Plan 'now proposed.—But . though he thought that no compulsion was neces sary, still it was necessary that we should put our selves on an equality with France, whose power was so greatly augmented by her Armies, and her vast extent of Territory. But what sort of compul sion could be used with any advantage ? Why, this, that the CrOwn should have the power of obliging all the Peasantry of the Country to train themselves to arms : unless it possessed sthat,power already by the prerogative, that prerogative ought to be settled by Parliament, in such a manner, that the Crown should not have the power of degrading a person in a military capacity from that rank which he held in a civil capacity-. But it might be said that here there was no compulsion : if it did not abso lutely, in the first instance, seize upon men against their inclinations, it certainly was in a high degree vexatious and hard "upon the Parishes, and would fall With peculiar severity upon those who had the best claim to be exempted. It might be confessed that this measure was attended with some degree of inconvenience, which, however, in these times, ought to be cheerfully submitted to. It was said that it proved of great advantage to the Army, and engaged a great number of People in Re. cruiting, from a desire to escape the penalty. — Except, however, in the Highlands of Scotland; and in some parts of Ireland, the influence of the Land. cd Proprietors would be of little avail, and he was sure it could scarcely be expeded that they should be much influenced by a paltry fine. He reprobated the mode of Recruiting by Parish Officers, and ob. served, that notwithstanding the clamour' which it was the fashion to raise against Crimps, they might, under proper regulations, be made an useful body of men ; and certainly they were much better fitted for Recruiting than Parish Officers. He then proceeded to consider the application of these men after they should• be raised. He thought that nothing would induce the House to favour the principle of inveigling men into the Army ; and - this he contended would he the efred of this Bill. He approved of the redudion of the Militia's and thought that it would be a good plan to propose to the whole za.,000, to enter into the Army immediately, without, however, employ ing any undue influence. This might easily be effect ed by writing "to the Colonels of the several regi meets, that such a thing was desirable, and ordering them to read the letters to their regiments. He ob jeded to the forming of the battalions of the Reserve to those of the Line, as it would be the perpetual aim of the Officers to persuade the, men to enlist in the first battalions, and this would be unfair to many•of the soldiers in the second battalions. He also objea ed to the numbers that were confined from the Regu lar Afiny, in the Militia 'and the Army of Reserve. The 'great motives from which the people enlisted were a love of idleness, anity, and a love ,of dress, and temporary misfortunes. All these could be equally gratified and relieved by their entering into those Forces that were confined at home, and so many men were thus lost to the Regular Troops. He accounted for the numbers that had enlisted from the Army of Reserve into the Regulars, upon the supposition that these who had not enlisted,. had be ' fore deter Mined to enter into the'Regul; but for • the sake of the great addition-of bounty had chosen to take this circuitous mode of effeCting their. purpose. He thought that the brotherly feeling, about which so much had been said, would' have very little•effeet. Letters would constantly be passing between one Battalion and another, and if the Officer of the first Battalion should be a stria} disciplinarian, then none of the Soldiers of the zd Ba ttalion would feel disposed to enter. Besides, if thiS connexion was to lie established, it was beginning at the wrong end, for the West India Service ought, in the first place, •to be made a peculiar service, otherwise the Country Regiments might, perhaps, be all destroyed •at once in the West Indies, and this would put an end to all Recruiting in each particular County. Rather than send Regiments froM•particular Counties, therefore, to the West Indies, it would be better, to give up all our West India Possessions. He .thought that there was very little wisdom in the gradual pro. gress of reducing the Militia. But if Government would adopt the plain system of his Friend below him (Mr. WINDHAM), the Army would certainly be recruited in a speedy and easy way. He suggest. ed some of the means of which he before made men tion : ist, a system of Fortification, by which he undertook to make the Coast most exposed to the Enemy absolutely unattackable, under the penalty of dismissal or banishment ; edly, he would strongly fortify some other places, so as to obstrud the pro gress of the Enemy till a sufficient Army to oppose them could be colleded ; 3dly, he would secure the Arsenals ; and 4thly, he would put the Capital in a situation to defend itself. - To the present Bill he obicOed as vexatious, without any provisions that could be attended with any good died._ Mr. BURL/INi) would vote for 'the Bill on the same grounds as those which occasioned his former This Bill put an.end to the Ballot, and this was a great advantage ; but there were several parts it;f: tthat w e that n ;az render e q r n i i r t e p a e l r t i e n r a a n t e i o n n t especially as wll as t h at which went to puniSh the Parish for the mis- Perish Offi cers , an d t ha t w hi c h went condo of the a to impose an improper Tae: on di 'e fl,_ d_s:ri . of persons. ~,,,i Mr. L./INGHAM' disapproved of the Bd . ' 'i t,e indeed so mmy alterations ,would be required n 1 i , Committe e , by t h ose w h o a p prove d' of it, t hat was in that stage 11,e predicted its failure. the Mr. ROBERT WARD declared; that after -tots' best consider a ti on • w hie l he had been, able to 4 ) e" ref on the subj e ti, t h e Bill ap p eare d t o hint one wor d 0 of the support of the House. .He was astonishes/ the assertions made by the' opponents of the r sc ' that it poss ess ed no f eature o f no velty. To t e l e , who urged s uc h an o bj e C t i o n e he wished only to se —the. that the measur e went t h e l eng th .of abolishing ..if ballotting system, and to ask whether this Of it sc i. , was not only a novel. b ut a most imp rtant and 5_..t, tisfattory improvement? • It. was . quite unaccottu_r_ able, theref ore , to find HunOurable Gentlemen Sei ting up one after the other with the same declarr tion, that this was ttierely,a repetition of. f°Ti, Plans ! that there was nothing new. or origina l , e l , the measure! The Bill had been attacked by au' . I ,i and. Learned Friend of his (Mr. JEKYI:L) as iair' i re j a sort of fraud on those who had already incrW.. the expellee of ,providing Substitutes. • Tilt s ', " 1 : 01 ever, was not an Objedion against the.ptiti° 4 , ) , — be . removed e h m e Bill, ov e din n t t was he an n objeet Committee i °l: t a v n h d ic h h e could ea s " Y dev r was _ confi ,i 0 that it Would meet with a due share of a tten `v;ll (Mr. PITT nodded assent). .He,clenied that the 00 , eohactlauile'rl way at all of an arbitrary nattire ; and, on the cones trary, he asserted that it was:at once the urns [ c on , stitutional and the most efficient measure wlli cgi e'e s lci der the present circumstances of the CountrY' e ; e o be adopted. He replied to several of the arO t T ep ro-- of the last Speaker but one, and particular ] ! - ,ibea t h h a a t t ed th t e h m e e sy re st u e n m aid o e f d c s) r , imping, which he de s '',: oc i s ti. in terms of very just indignation. He cont', our no pros peel of success, s a t n e d iu t o ha f provisions for the augmentation of the RFg a ,„, c to be put to the trial. which ac least ought fairly trial, , rthe Recruiting Bill , ne t CaAti^ Mr. JEKYLL explained, as did C° ' °— the w Bil l FORD in a few words. He maintained that would procure no men for the Anti t and • dPnt 0.. would nut have entered indeP e° - te old be ob• that any men which it did pro eur- w°H e denied tamed by means the most e t e restable• _ s ; that he had supported crimping generally, but t 1 3 .3. serted that the praftice might, under proper reg I Lions, be tolerated. „ f elt,- . Sir W. YOUNG, in a short but pointed sr one opposed the Bill, as i n every po i nt o f viCW tint to stitutional, unnecessary, and.dangerous. it svf ° n o .. Regular rY hit) impose a Tax raised without the controul °' t re at liament and to keep up no less than 68 9 00° e ddy without Parliamcntary*controul. He was dcciJ e . against its further progress. Mr. SIIAIV LEFEYRE described the Bled the Oft' unjust' excl us i on an d p ermane nt tax on t" , offi- Interest. H e d eprecate d th e s y st em of Parisi' He cers being converted into Recruiting Serjea at a s i and, was totally adver se t o t h e m i xture of ge iler t end e " parochial taxes, and viewing the measure a. ve the with all these evilS; he f e lt it his duty to g i o 'o' measure his decided disapprobation. He was P'' oa itiec larly severe on th e mo d e i n which the re ..;ro f Sir W. PULTE would attach to Parishes in cases where the reclul .. Quotas were not procured. was a 0 5 ' ante to be placed on the great force now 0 , be • of the which was so fully adequate to the secur it y ru n Country, that it was by no means necessary t n, to into a system which would be highly dittig e e r e co n. the Constitution. It was not to, the 111"s ur 9 r e. sidered simply that he Was adverse, so much as, ro' IVEY thought there on for, „ fo es , , J cp garding it as the source of a set of measures, lbc,gof yenning the Country by.force. The p lc-- L., y e a, the Country depended on the spirit of throe. f r ont and not on any exertion that could be foes[therethem. With such.a Peopleotid such a sP iri ' o f tit° was no ,necessity'of putting into, the hands come Crown a power such as the Bill went to giv es but a pared with which, the term of Itr.asion w. bugbear. • •,c' 10 /1" ,Mr. RYDER said, that for the last 5 : - , goos e ' nothing had 'been heard on any side of ' l ' Aral" but the necessity- of He agreed ,that the ground of onstitutional '. Ar inY , but after the opinion increasing our Reg ° ,' a ee al, .'" l9 a fair ground of jealousy against: a Staodi°,ght, ttl) -- , room for a jest, it could' nut be 1 ' ou r s urf as, asserteo, tnat de s " he Army • t in io g n d in a g ng i e ts r duration give had reached a degree of magni t° ' to t pion he had alluded to an t geg ulJr . A 5 nr t00n...-- I t his ' for Fr r• permanency of this measure, the best rule f the exist; and ti o h n e jwe :v al o so u ul l : d ye ask, ocofn it who ;la- ::::e . ° v hthereit nit 1 laa).r could ascertain the limits' of a . dang e a t 1-16 ', 15c , !: last the lif e Of the ycungest Membt'rl';,,, a Stan''' 7 As to the d anger to h e appre h en ded 1 :`„ °- :,.,E it °lig r be Army, he w o . i ld' as k , w h et h er t his 13'"idestroY es . • .the power of Parliament to suppre' n '';' z e, if . 0r ? 7 113 Force that it was now about to or g °- : from it ? Ise , sime it should apprehend such D a g" Nr. S i fte d would ask the Hon. Gentleman be'o s ` l , l an d a" - ,: c LEFEVRE), whether he had not 1 14 ; nc lie' m edr ' e t ' f iti ' • upon a measure more sure than ibi s, wa s a- 1 Army of Reserve AR, of i, v la vv ic i h rti thi re s ivee si ni 'ta in : a i provement and a mitigation ? o tr°`^ - lic rich Officers, they were the persons w h_, aat , knowledge, would be most beneficiidlY' an cuti °/1 same time most safel i n trusted with the e of the measure. That Hen. Gentleman h,f ad , 'id in that y '` c cou rset frequently acted as Deputy Lieutenant , a n _ of fi c ers, had alone the same duties which he now thoug , n _ es like situ .tion he, the constables, and other inferl °j , t i t to° much to impose on the Parish Officers. In I' u„ we re d us t equally at stake, it would not be fair or, J,„,,,,ce r toti.- the present, when the dearest interests of a" to plead one duty as an excuse for the n on-pe & A t of another, 'leat e • b Got . situation; there was no one point in which ; stabie , crimps de .e eV were agreed. Some thought t hou The House was placed in a 'l rl g 0 others thought they were necessary; some! toot if the Militia ,- should be reduced, o thers ttu Lj , _,-, should be dest . roY ce , ther e others thought that it should be kept up asked whether from.what had been ey.perier... an ter was - Ito hope for any O a her was any rational g,ount ? .. asked w het would give general satisfaction . Ile d r est i" which our ea it was not playing a gadte in . in 1 11 ; 'some thought the ballot_.2. 'bie • b a view t ° . •e proposed with • sa c way of every measure measure first If even the first object of the Country terests were involved, to throw difficulties the