The Sun. — London, England, 1832-03-09 00:00:00

and (amnions of his 'Alojesty'a Government. The course of opposition which had been taken with respect to the present discussion, though it could not be called an unfair course, yet it placed his Majesty's Government in a very entharrassing situation. He bad not that night come for ward to call their attention to the subject of tithes in Ire land as though it were a matter which had never been brought under their consideration, because it came to them after repeated warnines—it came to them recommended by the Speech from One Throne—it came to them in uni formity with the address which that House had voted in reply to the Speech from the Throne—it came to them after their solemnly-expressed determination to make the subject of inquiry by a Select Committee ; and, finally, it came to them after evidence received, and a report made, by that Select Committee. That Committee, having con sidered the question referred to them, orris ed at the conclusion, that though they were not prepared to re commend the immediate adoption of any final mea sure, yet that sufficient evidence had been laid before them to warrant their coming to the House, laying before it such evidence as had been taken, and calling for such immediate steps as the exigency of the case seemed to require. Now, before Government adopted any particular course definitively, was it not Peones that they should come before Parliament at the earliest possible moment, anti not come forward pledged to any particul it measure ? The most striking port of the objection raised by those who supported the motion W:l3 this—that they found fault with Government fur being too early in consulting Parliament : it was really the first time, in all his Parliamentary experience, that be had known Hon. Members find fault with his Majesty's Government for taking Parliament into their councils.— (Hear, hear.) That was the real state of the case. Had they not called upon the House to go into an inquiry?— And he would appeal to the report of the Committee to show whether or not they bad grounds for at least taking Borne steps? Was the present a time in which they could wait and trifle? Were they to be met in a time like that with the announcement that the executive authority had not power to enforce the law? He was prepared to admit that, as a permanent system, such a law ought not to be enforced ; but so long as it was the law, there could be no doubt that it ought to be obeyed. But they were told by certain Irish Members that they ought to propose nothing, because they could carry no plan into execution in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) Was it becoming—was it safe to be influenced by such a threat?—(Renewed cheering.) That report, then on the table of the House, Was one which, while it held forth a prospect of relief, at the same time suggested measures by which Government could maintain the authority of the law ; but certain Irish Members met them at once with the reply, that they could not in that country enforce the execution of the law. That was a fatal announcement, not only for Ireland, but for the British Empire. Those Hon. Members in effect said to his Majesty's Government, you must not stir an inch in this matter, because you cannot command the exe cution of the law. That was a recommendation which, if it had anv force at all, was equally stringent with re ' effect to England or to Scotland. He entreated Hon. Members to consider what that announcement led to. They were told they could not enforce the laws, for that the people would not obey them. Let the House, then, look to the conclusion. Whenever an ignorant and op pressed people, conceiving themselves insulted and feeling themselves injured, being at the same time inflamed by the agitating spirit of the times, ground by real oppression and excit e d b y fancied wrongs—when stitch a people, so stimu lated, h a d signified that they would not obey the law, were Members of that House to come forward and tel the Government they should do nothing, but sit still and sub mit to a state of things so utterly unheard of? Were they to he told that the people had resolved to set aside the law, and that therefore the Government must do nothing? Was that the counsel which the Right Hon. Baronet op posite thought proper to give them ? Was that the con clusion at which the Right Hon. Baronet would have the House of Commons arrive? It was idle to suppose that the House did not possess all the information which was necessary for taking, at least, a preliminary step. There was not a Member of Parliament who had not had the re port in his bands—who had not the evidence delivered be fore the Committee. He confessed he could not easily ac count for the objections to going into a Committee, for, in his judgment, that mode of proceeding would give the fullest scope for discussion. It really did appear to him that some Hon. Members endeavoured to suggest that he had some design of tricking the House. The whole ex tent of his Parliamentary experience did not enable him to say that he could remember a single instance in which it had been held that going into Committee pledged the House to the proceedings that might he adopted there. Sir H. PARNELL denied that he had made any such assertion. Mr. STANLEY would then ask the Right Honourable Baronet did he think that agreeing to the motions for going into a Committee pledged the House to any decision what / soeve r Sir H. PARNELL said he thought it pledged Members to the principle of the measure. Mr, STANLEY—Then the Hon. Baronet and those who resisted the present motion did so on the ground that it Pledged them to the principle of taking into considera tion the question of tithes in Ireland ; but the House had already acted upon that principle, and not only that, but the Right Hon. Baronet bad himself declared his full con currence with the leading feature of the proposed resolu 6-Jabs-namely, relief to the parochiel clergy. The mea sure of coercion had been much misrepresented, and all • that he asked of the House was, to suspend their judg ment upon that matter, and upon the questions connected with this report, until the resolutions which it was the in tention of the Government to propose had been laid before them. It had been objected to them that this report was imperf ect . He admitted it—it was what the Government said—it was necessarily imperfect; and what they asked Was, that the House should not draw conclusions from this imperfect report, but should go into Committee, Where the subject might be more fully and completely d iscussed.—(Hear, hear.) Did those who opposed the Committee mean to say that no change was necessary? If they did, their opinions were at variance with that of all others, not only of Catholies,not only of Presbyterians, but of ministers of the Church Establishment, who bad been examined, and without whose testimony the examination would indeed have been partial and incomplete. What was the meaning of this call for delay? Were they to wait three, four, five, or six months on a subject like the 'present ; or did those who recommended delay think it would he more possible for the Government to vindicate the majesty of the law at the end of that time than at present? There had been a charge made against the Go vernment that they had encouraged agitation in Ireland. It was a false, a foul, a calumnious accusation—hut it bad been made ;land yet, when the Government wished to pro.duce a measure that would have the effect of quieting • tation, they wer e ca ll e d on to d e l ay f or some time longer;agl and thus, while the ch arge it se lf i nc r ease d t h e amount of agitation, the effort of the Government to prevent it was opposed and attempted to be frustrated. He had made these observations because be had been unjustly accused of taking an unfair advantage of political circumstances in order to prevail over those who did not take the same view of the matter with himself—a conduct of whiclahe never had been, and tr usted he never should be, guilty in the whole course of his political life, any more than he should be guilty of it in any transaction of private life.—(Cheers.) Mr. LEADER explained. Sir R. INGLIS, amidst loud calls of " Question," said, that he should vote for the motion without considering him self Pledged to anything beyond entering upon an inquiry. I Mr. HUNT complained that the Members were called on to go into Committee on a matter on which they had but insufficient information. He assented that the tithes were Much greater in England than in Ireland ; and it was true, is they h a d been told, that if the tithes in Ireland were touched it would not be long before those in England were trade the subject of inquiry. Mr. JEPHSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Secre kry whether be should go into the Committee pro forma night? . Mr. STANLEY said he did not propose going so far. lle desired O nly that the House should agree to go into C o mmitt ee , Aber night. The C omm itt ee it se lf c ould be taken on ono ' The ca n s of genets!, when th e Question" here became very loud and F oe goin ! House divided— g into committee Against it 3l Maj or it y f or Mi n i sters —T-43 the Hoes The nth e er Ord ers of the Day were then disposed of, and adjourned at a Quarter to Two. ll 0 Mr. USE ------""41.'----- S E OF LORDS, 111.4. Rem S. • It co private Rills, wh k i r and others brought up several Lord DOVER were severally read a first time. praying for f Presented a petition from Bethnal-green, urther regulations in the working hours o: , children in factories. . Lord F I NGALL M e ath, in favour of p re s ented a petition from Kilbayne, 4ga i rt :t tithes. Reform, and one from the same place • Lord CLONCURRY tioes.---Referred to the 'Ti the three petitions against Th e Bishop of LONDiplitsl'e Committee. deanery of Boroughbridge presented a petition from the might be augmented by a t ' ax P ra Ying that small benetices Lord KING present e d th Put on larger ones. Ireland, against tithes. On e xeq petitions from places in of the petitiona stated that in t .6 parish whence it came, there was not a Protestant, but the parson and his wife. The NOBLE LOAD presented twc petitions from places in Surrey to the same effect. The Earl of ELDON said that from what had transpired in another place on a recent occasion, he should give notice, that, on Monday next, be would bring forward a motion relative to his own conduct while he had the honour to sit on the 'iVoolsack in that House. Gross imputations had been cast on him, and he was determined, with the help of God, they shou , d not go unanswered.—(Hear, bear.) He thought it better merely to give notice of his intention, and not go into the imputations at present, as he considered it necessary that some Noble Lords, whom he did not see in their places should be present at the discussion. He only wished that his conduct should be fairly laid before the public, and would abide by its decision. Earl RODEN presented petitions from liallytrane and Scull, in Irel Ind, and Clare, in Suffolk, against the new system of education in Ireland. The Noble Earl asked whether the Noble Viscount opposite had any objection to postpone the second reading of the Irish Juries Bill. Viscount MELBOURNE assented. Lord TEYNHAM gave notice that on Monday . he would bring in his Bill for the regulation of the office of overseers of the poor, which was withdrawn last session. Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from the parish of Christchurch, Spita:fields, against the employment of children under nine years of age in factorise for too many hours. FL! entirely concurred with the petitioners. The Marquis of CLEVELAND, seeing the Noble Lord at the head of the Board ot Trade in his place, wished to ask him whether the returns relative to the shipping trade would soon be laid on the table. Lord AUCKLAND said the returns relating to the port of London might be presented in 2 hours, but from the outposts it required time to get them. The Earl of WICKLOW, before going into the regular business of the evening, wisl,ol to ask the Lord Chancellor of Ireland whether Captain Graham was still in the Ma gistracy, i.r if he had resigned ? Lord PLUNKET said Captain Graham's name was not included in the new list, and he had not resigned himself. TITHE SYSTEM. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then moved that the first report of the Tithe Committee be reid. _ _ The report having been read by one of the clerks of the House, The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose—The report which their Lordships had just heard read at the table, together with the evidence on which the repeal of the Com mittee was lounded, having heen4now very many days in their Lordships' hands, he thought himself right in con cluding that the time had arrived, when, with pro priety, their Lordships might he invited to accede to the principles stated in that report. In submitting the resolutions, strictly founded, and in accordance with that report, for the approbation of their Lordships, he felt considerably relieved from the difficulties under which he should consider himself placed, if called on, on his own authority, and in consequence of any opinion entertained by himself, to ask the concurrence of their Lordships to re commendations so important. The recommendations were not founded solely on opinions of his own, but on the opinions of the Committee of their Lordships' House, selected from among them, and composed of Peers whose authority was cinch greater than his own. In moving the present resolutions, it would be necessary for him shortly to call the attention of their Lord.hips to the three prominent fea tures of the report, viz., the circumstances connected with the opposition to the execution of the law in Ireland, with respect to the collection of tithes; to the effect of the opposition to the law upon the fortunes and circum stanced of individuals; and, finally, to those general con siderations which arise out of those circumstances, and of the state of the property which had been effected. It was no difficult task for him to satisfy their Lordships of the existence of the facts to which he had alluded. Syste matic resistance had prevailed, indeed by open outrage and illegal opposition to the law itself, and more frequently it was accompanied by combinations, the object of the parties so combining being to avail themselves of legal technicalities and difficulties, to resist the payment of tithes. That such a systematic opposition, whether founded upon open outraee or an evasion of the law itself, had prevailed for a considerable time, and was now increasing in its violence through several of the counties of Ireland, no individual could deny. The result of that opposition had been the placing of the clergy of those districts in a most unfortu nate, and certainly a very unjust, situation. Now the result must be and was, that the parochial clergy of Ireland throughout those districts had been deprived of the means of existence, having made most unsuccessful efforts by means of the law, and having failed in obtaining the object which was their just due. It was true that some portion of the clergy had, in some degree succeeded in obtaining that to which they were lawfully entitled, but they had only been enabled to do so, by means which it would be most desirable that the clergy should never be compelled to have recourse to. A third description of persons were those who, in the present state of things, fearful of compromising the sanctity of their character, and of losing that influence which justly belonged to them, had abstained from making such efforts altogether, leaving it to the justice of their Lordships, and to the wis dom of the Legislature to make provision for them, being unwilling to place themselves in the situation of using any harsh means to recover that to which they were so justly entitled. That was the state of things which their Lordships were called upon to take into their serious consideration, and to provide a remedy for. --(Hear, hear.) Their Lordships were so well acquainted with the disturbances that had taken place in Ireland with reference to the collection of tithes, and the extent to which that resistance had gone, that it was almost unnecessary for him to advert further to the subject, but he felt it his duty to call the attention of their Lordships to the fact that the Committee had examined clergyman after clergyman, and Magistrate after Magistrate, who all concurred in the statement that they were un able to procure payment of their tithes, and that the power vested in the Magistrates was completely incompetent, as the law at present stood, to aid them, and compel the payment. Mr. Roberts, of Kilkenny, had stated before the Committee that the combination which existed in different parts of Ireland was totally without precedent, and had been the means of intimi dating the whole country. He stated, that the tithes had not been paid in that district, and that it was now utterly impessible, in consequence of the systematic opposition, to obtain payment. Mr•. Cotton, Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Fitz gerald, and Mr. R. Butler, had given similar testimony. Among the Magistrates who were examined was Col. Sir I. Harvey, who stated that the clergy were unable to collect their tithes, and, as it appeared to him, the Government were perfectly incapable, as the law at present stood, to assist in obtaining payment. Mr. Green, the resident Magistrate of Tipperary, had also been examined, and stated that nothing could be worse than the collection of tithes, and that in almost every barony in that county the payment of them was most strenuously resisted. Major Stanley hael stated that the resistance to the payment of tithes was general, and that the process servers, in consequence of the combination which existed, were afraid to proceed, and, in consequence thereof, the attempt to enforce the payment of tithes to the amount of 1061. had fallen to the ground. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) could multiply these facts to an enormous extent upon the evidence now before their Lordships; and he could increase it still fur ther, were he permitted regularly to refer their Lord ships to other evidence which had been received by the Committee since the portion of the evidence to which he had alluded had been laid on their Lordships' table. He thought, however, it was unnecessary for him to dwell longer on the character of those illegal resistances and combinations which had taken place, as in his opinion enough had been stated to impose the great duty on their Lordships of affording some means with which assistance might be given to those most respectable and honourable individuals, who bad suffered so much from the outrages committed, and which had arisen from no fault of their own ; to afford them that relief was not only a matter of Christianity, hut of strict justice ; and he had no doebt when their Lordships considered that those respect. able individuals had been placed in the situations which they held, under the expectation of re ceiving certain of the emoluments of which they had been deprived, they would have no hesitation at (ewe to adopt the recommendation of the Committee, which proposed that Government should be enabled to give them relief according to their circumstances, giving greater relief to the poorer clergy, and a smaller aid to those whose emoluments were of a much more extended nature. The Committee were of opinion that Government would be enabled, in just vindication of the law, and for the purpose of procuring repay. inent of those advances which had been made, to resort to those measures which would effectually put a stop to the resistance which existed to the payment of tithes, and break up that organised system of combination which at present existed. Here, then, he (night leave the subject, as far as the opposition to the payment of the tithes, and the effects of that op position, and the measures incumbent on them to adopt, in common justice to the clergy, were concerned• But . although the Committee bad not thought it uectimitry in this report to enter at length upon the discussion of some very importantyoints connected with the subject before them, yet, in examining the specks of opposition here proved to have been offered to the payment of tithes, one could not overlook certain circumstances connected with this species of property which had a strung tendency to produce that opposition, and to engender broils, and tu tnults, and breaches of the peace, when its collection was rigidly enforced. This species of opposition bad often arisen in a greeter or less degree, and although put down and kept dormant for a time, it had always again arisen, and had formed the reedy scurce of broils and disturb ance in the hands of agitators, when it suited their pur pose to weaken the prejudices of ignorant people. It could not have escaped their Lordships, in reflect ing upon the nature of this speciee of property, that, however recommended by its antiquity, and however extensively it had prevailed in different states, and however sanctioned by law and supported by Government, it yet had always contained in itself the seeds of discon tent and disorder, and that it was very difficult to collect without encountering considerable opposition, sometimes amounting to open outrage and breaches of the peace. It was hardly necessary for him to say, when addressing their Lordships, what was the cause of this. It was hardly ne cessary for him to say that tithes operated as a tax upon industry, and that it had often been mooted (although he did not at present mean to enter into the discussion) whe ther it operated most on the landlord, the tenant, or the community. His own opinion certainly was, that the tithe operated either directly or remotely on the interests of the landlord. He would at present throw out of view the opportunities which landlords might have, by means of Corn Laws or other legislative enactments, to remove the burden from themselves; but, generally speaking, it appeared to him to be clear, that when leases were to be renewed, the rent to be paid to the land lord must, cn account of the tithes, be dimi nished pro tunlo. But besides this, it appeared to him etc ir that tithes operated as a serious tax on the occupier of land, for there was no one who took a lease of land that did not contemplate some advantages to be derived from improvements and labour ; and then consider the bearing of such a tax on the capital which he would have to lay out, and on the whole machinery which it would be necessary for him to put in motion in order to effect such improvements. The consequence must be to render the whole of his capital and means so employed less produc tive by one-tenth than it otherwise would he, and to that extent they were deterred from embarking in improve tnents. The tax prevented them from bringing under cul tivation certain inferior lands which might otherwise he cultivated with profit; and not only so, but it often pre vented him from laying out capital in the additional im provement of lands before under cultivation. The t ix ope rated also on the community in general, as well as on the landlord and the occupier of land ; for the consequence of its effect on the occupier was that the supply was dimin ished, and this of course raised its price to the con sumer. In consequence of its being a tax to such an ex tent on all the productive classes of the community, it had in all countries undergone some essential modifica tion. Far be it from him to approve of die mode adopted in some countries of getting rid of tithes by spoliation. He mentioned it only for the purpose of showing that in every country where the tax had been felt as a grievance, alterations had been made by spoliation ; in others some substitute, some mitigation in the shape of improvement, had been made. In some instances tithes l i had been farmed, and in all these the mode of raising them had become a great grievance. For instead of their being levied with a universal steady hand, that mode of collection was adopted which suited the views of the farmers, from which a series of petty annoyances had resulted, which gave rise to universal discontent. In one parish a man might be disposed to take six -tenths, or seven tenths; in the next parish a different amount was collected which produced a sense of injustice, and tended to engender those incessant feuds which it should be the object of every wise legislator to remedy.— (Hear.) He asked how those inconveniences had been met in Ireland ? The Legislature had been repeatedly called on to remedy the evils daily grow ing up. He would not refer to the various Acts of Parliament, some of which were passed before and some since the Union, in which the Government were obliged to adopt certain measures. But under the auspices of a Noble Friend of his, Parliament had been called on to effect a composition of tithes. And he lamented exceedingly that that composition had not been made compulsory.—(Hear.) If it had been so made they would have advanced one step further in that progress of concili ition which they must now effect by substituting a better system. He need not tell the House how indispen sable it was that the tithe laws should be put to rest. He might appeal to the Committee, and to the evidence of the persons examined, hardly one of whom had not stated that a settlement of this question was absolutely necessary to ensure the tranquillity of the country. He would first call their attention to one or two witnesses who had been examined. He would first allude to the evidence of the Archbishop of Dublin. But he would not rely on that alone. He begged to read a few emphatic words at page 137, to the following effect :—" But as for a continuance of the tithe system, it must be at the point of the bayonet—it must be through a sort of civil war. The ill-feelings so long kept up against it have been embodied in so organized a manner that there would he continual breakings out which would always require to be kept down by violence, such as a Government might resort to for once, if necessary, but would be unwilling to continue; and the most ex perienced persons do think with me, that nothing can secure the payment of tithe under the existing system." Now he certainly would not trouble the House with the number of similar statements made by clergymen, but lie would refer to the opinions of Jurymen who were connected with the Church. The Noble Lord then read a portion of the evi dence of Mr. Place, the registrar of the Consistorial Court of Dublin. That person had stater: his opinion that the making a composition compulsory would be highly beneficial, and he was asked in what respect it would be beneficial ? His reply was, that it would be beneficial merely as a preparatory step towards commutation. That it would be impossible to arrive at any satisfactory arrangement by compulsory composition only, but that that would be the basis of a future commutation. That be had reason to believe such a plan would be approved by the clergy, and till that was accomplished, Ireland would never he at peace. The Noble Lord observed that he had only selected these opinions from a mass of others in the evi dence given before the Committee. When he called to their Lordships' recollection, the extraordinary state in which the tithe system was, when to collect tithes, they were asked to arm Government with extraordinary powers, was it not fair, looking at all the circumstances, if they were really convinced tiott a change in the system was necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland, not to hesitate to declare that to be their opinion ? The House would see from the evidence before the Committee that in legal proceedings, attorneys were not to be found to conduct them. Arid that even the tithe-proctors rejected the bribes offered them to carry the law into effect.—( Hear.) Ile was not prepared now to discuss various plans that bad been submitted to the Committee by which the commutation for tithe should be effected, whe ther through the medium of a rent charge, through the medium of an exchange for land, or through the medium of money, to be raised by Govern ment and invested in land, further than tee observe that although all these were attended by difficulties, not of an insurmountable character, yet there existed in Ireland a great facility for the investment of money, and that if it was proposed to make a levy in the form of a rent charge on land, the mode of raising provincial taxes there would likewise afford great facilities. He would not institute a comparison between these various modes, the single question was, whether, contemplating all the evils which have accrued, the uncertainty to the clergymen, the disturbance prevailing under the present system, their Lordships were willing to exercise their power as a Legislature by some proposition to pro vide for nine hundred parochial clergymen, a measure which, if not perfect in itself, would at least be free from all the objections attending the system now prevailing by law. He could not but conceive that their Lordships would be able to prescribe some remedy better than that crowd of civil processes and of distraints that now irritated and oppressed Ireland. It would be well if they could simplify that system, but, above all, if by distinct legislation they could provide a remedy. Unfortunately, in Ireland the flock did not think that they received an equivalent from the clergyman to whom they paid tithes, though from what had been seen of the Irish clergy, and their just influence in all parts of the country, respect might well be attached to their conduct, and confidence placed in their actions, were it not for the unhappy recurrence of that system by which the cultivator of land was reminded that he was taxed for the immediate benefit of the clergy from whom he did not consider himself to obtain any equivalent. It was of great importance to place the clergy free from those per petual vexations which flowed from such a system, and place them in the situation of a man dependant on land for his support, receiving from that land a compensation proper, adequate, and respectable.—(Hear, hear.) If their Lord ships could accomplish thin, they would effect what the scotch Parliament had effected—for which they gave el edit to themselves, and to Charles 1., in whose reign it was accomplished.—a most glorious work, and which would be instrumental in promoting the prosperity and industry of the country. Thus they would contribute to the security of the clergy—the improvement, the pros perity, and the tranquillity of Ireland—and would lay the foundation of that excitement to industry which the state of Ireland most loudly called for. Thus also an end would be put to those irritating circum stances which attended the present tythe system. The collection of tithes in that country was now a great evil—it was an uncertain, a provoking, an irritating thing; it was an evil constantly repeated; and yet the tithes, be admitted, were not received to their fell extent, far, to the credit of the clergy, he was bound to state that there was no evidence of the disposition of the clergy to exact more than was their due—and, indeed, they often contented themselves with less ; so that all the trains of evil which the evidence had shown to exist, did not arise from the ex orbitaney of their demands, hut from the radical defects of the tithe system itself, which, if the Parliament were now to abolish, they would deserve for themselves the gratitude of that country and of posterity.—(Hear.) In times of great difference of feeling such as these—in times ofgreat heat, arising from the difference of party—he brought for ward the present motion ; but yet he looked for an absence of that party-feeling which had heretofore often unhappily tinctured their debates upon questions connected with Ire land, and be expected with confidence that the House would look only to the question of the permanent benefit of Ireland. He fi?gged to move the following resolutions l)ie Jovis, So. Martii, 1532.. "That it appears to this House that in several parts of Ireland an organised and systematic opposition has been made to the pay ment of tithes, by which the law has been rendered unavailing, and many of the clergymen of the Established Church have been reduced to great pecuniary distress. " That, in order to afford relief to this distress, it is expedient that his Majesty should be empowered, upon application to the Lord-Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ire land, to direct that there be issued from the Consolidated Fund such sums as may be required for this purpose. " That the sums so issued shall be distributed by the Lord_ Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, by and with the advice of the Privy Council, in advances propor tioned to the incomes of the incumbents of benefices, wherein the tithes or tithe composition lawfully due may have been with held, according to a scale diminishing as the incomes of such in cumbents increase. " That, for the more effectual vindication of the authority of the law, and as a security for the repayment of the sums so to be advanced, his Majesty be empowered - to levy, under the autho rity of an Act to be passed for the purpose, the amount of ar rears for the tithes or tithe composition of the whole or any part of the year 1831, without prejudice to the claims of the clergy for any arrear which may be due for a longer period; reserving, in the first instance, the amount of such advances, and paying over the remaining balance to the legal claimants. " That it is the opinion of this House that, with a view to se cure both the interests of the Church and the lasting welfare of Ireland, a permanent change of system will be required ; and that such a change, to be satisfactory and secure, must involve a com plete extinction of tithes, including those belonging to lay im. propriators, by commuting them for a charge upon land, or an exchange for or investment in land." The resolution having been read by the Loan CHAN CELLOR, from the Woolsack, The Earl of WICKLOW rose, not, he said, to object to the resolution which had just been read, on the contrary, he considered it was a proper mode of doing a great good All he would at present say was, that when be loooked at the state of Ireland, he could see no plan so likely to be for the benefit of the clergy as the one now pro posed. He hoped that Parliament would soon find out and adopt some more permanent plan for settling this great question. When he came down to the House, he expected to have heard what the plans of the Government were for such settlement, and lie had been very much dis appointed when the Noble Marquis sat down without sav ing a single word upon the subject. The Committee, or he should say Government, had advised the abolition of tithes altogether as such, but as yet the House was left in total darkness of what the measure would be that was to fol low this. He said that it was the recommendation of the Government, because he considered it so, the report of both Committees having been so much alike. He considered that the great and most difficult question which the Committee bad to deal with, was the final settlement of the question, and he could not express the extent of his disappointment at the manner in which that had been stated in the report of the Committee, and the resolution of the Noble Marquis. The present resolution merely recommends that Government should collect the tithes for one year, but he hoped that they would re-consider the subject, for in his opinion it would be better that such power should be continued to them until the final settlement of the question. They had it now from the Government themselves, that the clergy had been reduced to a state bordering upon starvation ; the one year's tithes would certainly be a great boon, but it would not give any permanent relief; therefore he would strenuously recommend the Noble Marquis to introduce such a clause as would empower the Government to levy the tithes till the final measure was part of the law of the land. He was happy to be enabled to give his support to this act of Government, and it had given him plea sure, because it would afford great relief to that class which the NubleMarquis had so highly eulogised—the clergy. The suggestion which the Noule Earl threw out for the consideration of the Noble Marquis, he (the Noble Earl) thought would have a double effect—it would se cure to the clergy their income till a new and better system came into operation, and it would show the people who resisted the law, that they could not do so with impunity. It was well known that the general feel ing among persons in the lower walks of society was, that sums of money could be collected by the Crown with much more facility than by individuals. The Noble Earl, how ever, could not but he apprehensive that in the result, Government would not be disposed to enforce'the payment of the arrear of tithes at all. —(Hear, bear.) He thought Government would reason thus—that it would be better to commence the system in concord with the feelings of the people, and allow all agitation tosubside, by abstaining from enforcing the payment of arrears at all. No doubt such reasoning, and such a proposition, would be met by the individuals who had refused to pay tithes, and by the agi tators of Ireland, with the greatest warmth ; but the result would be seriously detrimental, not only to all property in Ireland, but to the Established Church property in Eng land. The Noble Earl begged to call the attention of the House to the evidence of the Archbishop of Dublin, given before the Committee of that House. From that evi dence it might appear the Magistracy were to blame—no doubt the evidence wore that aspect ; but it was to be re colleeted that the Magistrates in Ireland were placed in most difficult and unfortunate situations. As regarded, for instance, that which could not as yet have been forgotten, the calling out last year of the yeomanry at Newtonbarry ; there was a great doubt for a long time whether the Magistrate who principally acted on that occasion, was or was not correct ; and he (the Noble Earl) found that that very Magistrate had been dismissed from the Commission of the Peace.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side.) At all events, his. name was now left out of the Commission, and the newspapers of this very day had brought the information of an indictment for murder against Captain Graham having been ignored, and of some other person who acted with him having been acquitted upon his trial for murder at the Assiz:s, in consequence of what took place at Newton in z). Ile (the Noble Earl) knew not Captain Graham personal'y, but he stood forward to defend the Magistracy of Ireland in general. His persuasion was, that the Magistrates and police of Ireland bad been e:ipple.l by an apprehension in their minds that what they thought right to do was contrary to the feelings of his Majesty's Government. He had only this very evening heard, on good authority, that if, in a cer tain parish, where a general stand had been made against the payment of tithes, a little vigour had been shown, every man in that parish would have paid his tithes. With respect to a suggestion of the Noble Marquis oppo site, of making the landlords the proctors of the Church property, in his opinion there could not be in the present state of Ireland a more injurious system thought of— a system more likely to be destructive to the country, or more likely to carry into effect the views of the great agitators and demagogues of Ireland ; a system which he hoped the gentry of Ireland would to a man oppose. The commutation of land for tithe did not seem to him to be so impracticable; and the apparent difficulties in the way of that might be got rid of ; but whatever arrange ment might be proposed, be trusted that every care would be taken to preserve inviolate the rightful property of the Church. The Bishop of LONDON felt compelled to say a word ass member of the Committee, in consequence of an obser vation made by the Noble Earl who had just sat down. As one of the Members of the Committee which had been a ppointed by this House, upon this subject, he disclaimed the imputation for imputation it was—of having sub [flitted to the dictates of the Government with respect to anything that appeared in that report.—(Cheers.) Neither o❑ this nor on any other occasion would he consent to give the sanction of his humble name to the report of any Committee with which, in his conscience, he did not heartily concur•. This report he most cordially did support.—(Cheers.) There might be a word or two in it which he thought would be better altered, but with the substance of the report, and the report generally, he perfectly agreed. H e could satisfy the House, were it necessary, that the report had been any thing but sub mitted to without consideration and full discussion. The very words which bad excited the Noble Earl's observations were not originally in the report, but subsequently introduced into it at the suggestion of an individual, not a Member of his Majesty's Govern ment.—(Hear, hear.) It did not seem to the Right Rev. Prelate that there would be any very decided opposi tion to this measure, and it did not appear to him that this was the proper time for entering - into full discussion of it. He thought that the Noble Earl had hardly done justice either to the report, or the speech of the Noble Marquis, which he had heard, in alike accusing the one and the other of vagueness, and in stating that neither the one nor the other pointed nut a remedy for the present evil. As precise a remedy as could be pointed out, was chalked out by the report, and with more parti cularity by the Noble Marquis, and. with as much par ticularity as it was possible to be stated by the Noble Earl. The principle was to transfer the payment of tithe from the land-bolder to the land- owner ; how that was to be done was of course a question of con siderable difficulty, but involving no difficulties in which it was any thing like impossible to get over. He was •ur e there could be no intention of extinguishing the pay ment of tithes altogether, and he had no doubt that, at the proper time, whatever difficulties existed in intro (toeing a proper system, they would be got over. Lord ELLENBOROUGH requested their Lordships to recollect that whatever principles were adopted with respect to the Church of Ireland, must also be adopted with respect to the Church of England, and, therefore, in whatever measure their Lordships might concur, they would be deciding equally on the principles of the Church of England as that of Ireland. He understood the present resolution to be the redemption of that pledge which had been given some time ago to vindicate the law. He was surprised at not hearing a single word on that subject from the Noble Marquis. He thought the necessity of vindicating the law in Ireland, ought to have been placed in the fore ground, and ought to have been the basis of the resolu tion. But their Lordships were called upon to adopt a measure which, whatever might be the state of Ireland, no Government had, before the present period, called on their Lordships to adopt. They were now called upon to give to the Government itself the collection of the tithes of Ireland. The state of things which required such a remedy had grown up since the administration of the Noble Lord opposite (Grey).—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Noble Lords might think of it as they pleased hut every passage in the report with respect to the out rages and combinations, showed clearly that they were of a character entirely different to any thing that had hitherto existed in Ireland—that combination had arisen in the short space of a few days after the Noble Earl bad taken office. Did Ministers, immediately on receiving information of the resistance to the payment of tithes, come down to that House, as they ought to have done, for the purpose of investing themselves with power to vindicate the law ? Their Lordships must be perfectly aware they bad done no such thing.—(Hear, hear.) If, how ever, the total inadequacy of the law to enforce the payment of tithes was not sufficient to induce Ministers, to resort to such a course, surely the information they had further received, called loudly on them to adopt it. There was no evidence on which the present re solutions were founded, which his Majesty's Govern ment might not have obtained previous to the month of December, and instead of then moving for the ap pointment of a Committee, they ought to have come down to Parliament and have demanded that measure which they now called for. More than that, it appeared from the papers laid before their Lordships, that as early as last July there was an opinion prevalent among the people of Ireland, that his Majesty's Government did not view with disfavour the resistance made to the payment of tithes. As far as the present resolutions went to vindi cate the law, they had his entire concurrence. The Noble Lord contended that if Government had adopted proper measures in April last, the House would not now have been called on to make Government the collectors of tithes. He was afraid that by agreeing to the proposed resolutions, they would hold out hopes to the public, which might prove delusive. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in explanation, de nied that he bad ever designated tidies as a tax upon the land. He had always assumed tithes to be the property of the clergy. Lord MELBOURNE said, that if the proposed mea sures were merely to indicate the authority of the law, aed to enforce the claims of the clergy, Government could have effected that on their own responsibility. They had only come down to the House to ask for ex. traordinary power, after all the ordinary means of the law had proved insufficient. The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that the House might derive much advantage from the labours of the Committee. For himself, however, he would have addressed their Lordships with much more confidence-- knowing the importance of the subject to the Church of England here and in Ireland—if he had previously heard the opinions of those distinguished Prelates opposite. But having understood from the Right Rev. Prelate who had made some observations to the House that he approved of the plan, and not having heard any dissent from the Right Rev. Bench to this approval, he concluded that this plan met the approbation of the Right Rev. Bench; and that the House, in taking it into its consideration, was act ing in conformity with their wish. He contended that the mischief attributed to not making the composition for tithes compulsory was not well founded. The present unfortunate state of things proceeded from agitation—(Hear)—and the agitators would never leave Ireland quiet as long as the Noble Earl allowed them to agitate.—(Cheers.) The system of agitation and combination which prevailed in Ireland had been conducted in a most artful manner, and with a perseverance which was quite unequalled ; and de cidedly it would pervade Ireland, even after the adoption of this system, unless some effectual pleasure to suppress it were brought forward: He wished that a resolution to put an end to agitation had been proposed by Government at the same time that they proposed the abolition of tithes. It was well to say that they were anxious to vin dicate the authority of the law ; but they should either prevent or punish the breakers of the law. He objected to the propositions made by Ministers, as not sufficiently ex plicit; and protested against the last resolution. Was it fair or right to impose upon the landlord those payments without insuring to him the means of recovering them from the under-tenants. This system might do well as to future leases, but it would be decidedly unjust in reference to those now existing. He hoped the House would not now be called upon to vote with respect to that resolution. He thought they might go as far as the first part of the Noble Marquis's revolutions ; but be did not believe they should concur in the last resolution, as it would only tend to encourage agitation, and increase the dissatisfaction which prevailed in the country. Lord TEYNHAM objected to that part of the plan whieh made Government the collectors of tithes. It was well, he observed, to vindicate the authority of the law, but when a whole nation resisted a law, it could only be re-established by conquest. He thought, however, that some definite plan ought to have been brought forward by Ministers at the same time that it was declared tithes were to be abolished. The Earl of ELDON maintained that tithes were in every respect property, and could not be fairly represented as a tax upon the land. He would not be led by the conduct of any individuals, ecclesiastical or lay, to give his consent to a proposition which went to deprive the Ministers of the Church of England in Ireland of that property to which they were as well entitled as any layman was to his property. He had read all the evidence, and he was really astonished at the deductions which had been made from it. It was perfectly absurd to suppose that the tithes in Ireland could be destroyed without involving the destruction of the tithes in England. It was a most extraordinary proposi tion to recommend the destruction of the Church pro perty in Ireland, without at least giving their Lordships the satisfaction of knowing what it was intended to substi tute. He had sincerely hoped that, in the first place, some proposition would have been submitted to Parlia ' ment which would have secured to the Established Church in Ireland something in lieu of that property to which it was as much entitled as any other proprietor was to the property which he possessed. He bad sincerely hoped that some such proposition would have been made by those to whom the interests of the Church were peculiarly intrusted. But he now so utterly despaired of any as sistance in defending the Church on the part of those to whom the Church was peculiarly entitled for defence and protection, that he could assure their Lordships that the humble individual who addressed them would give himself no further trouble on the subject. . The Archbishop of CANTERBURY had always felt the obligations which the Church was under to the No ble and Learned Lord who had just spoken, and regretted, therefore, that in a speech professing to serve the Church, the Noble and Learned Lord had made an attack on those who were its representatives in that House, which attack was totally unfounded. lie would briefly state the mo tives by which he was actuated in not objecting to the re solutions which had been proposed by the Noble Marquis. He perfectly agreed with the Noble Duke, that the imme diate cause of the present resistance t o th e payment o f tithes in Ireland was a combination which the state of the law in Ireland did not afford the means of putting down. One of the strongest proofs of this fact was, that the re sistance in remained in the gr ea t es t s t reng th i n th ose pa rishes which it originated. But, undoubtedly, it ap peared from the report o f th e i r L or d s hi ps ' C omm i ttee , t h at the existing mode of collecting the tithes in Ireland was a great grievance. For although not more than half of the tithes collected reached the clergy, yet the mode of collecting was vexatious and harassing in the extreme to the tithe payer. Perhaps one cause of the existing evil was the difficulty which s'ood ter the way of enforcing the law with respect I to, the recovery of tithes; for it watt well known that wires there was a certain mode of recovering any just de mand, there it was not probable that the payment of it would h e resisted. He apprehended, from all the evidence which had been taken before the Committee, that the Tithe Composition Act had been received as a great benefit by the people of Ireland generally. Although tome resistance had been inade to it by some of the landed proprietor', yet it ap peared to have been received as a great benefit, and to have had a very soothing effect on the peasantry of Ire land. He could not bring himself to speak of the conduct of many of those from whern a different course might have been peculiarly expected, but who had contributed to pre. vent the beneficial effects of that Act. It was clear that the Composition Act would have answered every purpose for which it was framed if it had been universally adopted throughout Ireland. The state to which it appeared that many of the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland Lad been reduced was almost beyond expression. Many who depended solely on the emoluments of their livings had been reduced to a want of the absolute necessaries of life. Many had been obliged to part with their house hold goods, and were left in a condition of utter destitu tion. It was true that some had been relieved by the kindness of friends, and that others had been enabled to raise money on the hope of recovering at least a por. tion of the proceeds of their respective benefices. gretting, as he did, the declaration of the Noble and Learned Earl, to whom the Church was ender so much obligation, that he would never more interfere in its behalf, and acknowledging, with the Noble Duke, that the recent determination to resist the payment of tithes in Ireland was the result of conspiracy, he must still say that, seeing that whenever any disturbance or insurrection took place in Ireland, the first object of attack had always been the tithes, he was convinced that to place that sub ject in a state of comparative tranquiloty, ttould be to consult not only the good of Ireland generally, but the good of the Church of Ireland in particular.—( Hear, hear. ) The first thing he looked to was that which was also first considered in the resolution, namely the adoption of some measure which would make the composition for tithes uni versal in Ireland. At present not more thin three-fifths of the parishes of Ireland were under the op ration of the Composition Act. It was highly desirable that the re , maining two fifths should he also brought under its opera tion. That was the first step which ought to ba takehd There could, then, be no objection to ihe adoption of some plan by which a charge should be imposed on tae laud in lieu of tithes. If, upon consideration, the mode proposed of effecting this object should be deemed inconvenient either to the clergy or to the landed proprietors, soma other might, no doubt, be devised. He should certainly support the Noble Marquis's motion. It had not been his inten tion to say a single word on the question ; but the repre sentatives of the Church in that House bud been so pointedly alluded to by the Noble and Learned Lord, that, he had felt it impossible to refrain from troubling their Lordships with a few observations. In doing se, he trusted he had not departed from the respect which was Cue to the Noble and Learned Lord, whose opinion on all subjects was entitled to so much deference, and to whole the Church in particular was under so niany obligations. Tee Eal of CALEDON spoke from she cross bench, and was scarcely audible in the pllery. We understood the Noble Earl to say that their Lordships' Committee, of which he had been a member, was wholly uninfluenced in their decision by his Majesty's Ministers, and did not know what was the ultimate intention of Ministers on the subject. The Earl of WICKLOW observed, that a large propor tion of the Members of the ComMittee were the friends of his Majesty's Government, and remarked, as a strange circumstance, that the term " abolition of tithes" was to be found in the reports of the Committees of both Houses. He also wished for some explanation as to the insinuation which had been thrown out by the Most Reverend Prelate with respect to the conduct of the clergy of Ireland with reference to the Composition Act. The Earl of CALI:DON said that the introduction of the word " abolition," in the report of their Lordships' Committee, had been proposed by the Earl of ii rrowby. The Earl of ABERDEEN thou-ht that the resolution proposed by the Noble Marquis s lid either too much or two little. He understood that the proposition of the Noble Marquis went to the extinction of tithes in Ireland, or to their commutation on one of two plans. Now, now member of their Lordships' Committee had made up his mind as to the plan which it would be beneficial to adopt. Under those circumstances, it would have been whimsical indeed, if the Committee had offered any recommendation on the subject to their Lordships. But when no member of the Committee professed to have made up his mind with respect to any particular pl in, was it not an unprecedented proceeding, for the Noble Marquis to propose the extinction of tithes by one of two plans, neither of which the Committee had recommended? Now, was it not possible, that in the course of their further in vestigation, a third plan might offer itself to the minds of the Committee; and that, by that third plan, the re solution now proposed by the Noble Marquis might be stultified ? The Archbishop of CANTERBUR Y, in reference to what had fallen from a Noble Earl, disclaimed throwing any imputation on the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland, as having been instrumental in getting np a con spiracy against the Composition Act. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE replied. It was evi dently impossible that the Most Reverend Prelate could have meant to attribute any portion of the resistance to the composition for tithes to the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland. He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) con firmed the statement which had been made by a Noble Earl, a member of the Committee, that the resolutions did not emanate from the King's Government. The Committee was composed of individuals of all parties ; and, ho repeated, the resolutions were not proposed by his Majesty's Government. He perfectly agreed with the Noble Duke, that itswould be exceedingly unjust to lay any infliction on the landlord, without some previous arrangement for a better and a cheaper mode of collecting the tithes. He would fairly state to the Noble Duke, that if it were not necessary immediately to legis late on the subject—if there was not a pressing ne cessity on the part of the clergy in Ireland for some legislation—he should be slow to ask their Lordships to adopt any future arrangement on the subject; but such a necessity existing, and called upon to propose a new measure for the collection of the tithes by Government, he thought it was rignt also to require the country to look at ulterior measures, with a view to the equitable adjustment of the question. With respect to the Noble Earl's apprehension that some subsequent plan might stultify the present, it should be recollected that every plan roust embrace some mode of taking the tithes out of the land ; for it was on the land alone that they could be se cured. It would have been exceedingly rash if the Com mittee, before they had investigated all the details, bad stated to their Lordships what plan they preferred. All that they asked was the adoption of some measure which should prevent that collision into which the respective parties in Ireland onght never to be allowed to come. The Duke of WELLINGTON said a few words in explanation. The resolutions were then agreed to, and their Lord ships adjourned. DARING ROBBERY.—Yesterday forenoon, a young man, of fashionable appearance, wearing spectacles, a foreigner, called at Blackwell's, 3, Bedford-court, Covent. garden, surgeon's instrument-maker, and after looking and selecting a pocket and dissecting cases of instruments, razors, penknife, and a handsome silver embossed lancet case, stated that he should send them as a present to a friend's at Ham. burg. Having watched an opportunity, while the daughter of Mr. B. was engaged with another customer, he decamped with the articles without paying for them. Since which it has been discovered that the fellow had the assurance to offer them to pledge in tfie immediate vicinity, within a few minutes after the robbery. It is believed that the knave is one of the swell mob from Brighton. Oil Saturday morning, at nine o'clock, a troop of the 17th Lancers left Limerick to attend the execution of Patrick Barry (found guilty of the murder of Michael Maloney) at Cratloe, followed by a strong division of the 92,1 Highlanders. The convict was removed from Ennis gaol at seven o'clock, under a strong guard of horse and foot, to the place of execu tion. Barry was attended from Ennis to Cratloe by the Rev, Mr. Fitzgerald, P.P. of Cratloe. At three o'clock Barry eras executed within view of his own house, and the site of the murder. It is - A gratification to say, that he fully acknowledged the justice of his i sentence, and died penitent. A great number of country people 'assembled to witness his awful exit. His body was taken back to Ennis for dissection in the county in. firmary. lie has left a wife and four children.—Pilot. GLOUCESTERSIIIRE.---TIIC Assizes for this county will commence on Wednesday, the 528 th instant, before Mr. Justice Littledale and Mr. Justice Taunton, when the per sons in custody for destroying Lawlord's Gate Prison, and for other outrages connected with the late riots in this city, will be tried. We understand that all the men convicted at Glou cester of being concerned in the late riots in the Forest of Dean have been restored to their families, with the exception of Warren James, and it is said that even he will be set at liberty.—Bath Chronicle, Wm. Grant, convicted of the murder of Mary Wright, his sweetheart, at the Northampton Assizes, was exe cuted on Monday. INSOLVENT DEBTORS' COURT ) MARCH 7. —Mary Dorothea Cowling, an elderly female, described as late of York.cottage, Old Brompton, spin s t er, was opposed by Mr. Cooke, on the part of Messrs. Ayling and Peck, upholsterers, of Knightsbridge, Messrs. Erard, harp-manufacturers, and other creditors, e nd was supported by Mr. Woodrofre. The •c. 4%.,... occupied the Court a confiderabla time, and juclgnieia was &Wed..