The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-28 00:00:00

•, Mr. WHITE READ said, when the Bill was first introduced he had given it the most decided opposition. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that matters were in a worse state than when the Bill had first passed that House. Now, during the. whole of this period, Martial Law had been conti nued,* which sufficiently sheaved the inefficacy of this'measure. If it tended to prevent rebellion in the field, it consolidated the principles which would occasion it to burst forth, and made the People ready to join in any invasion of the Enemy.; but such a system could never tend 'to the security of the Country. - This could only be done by re-tracing all the steps which had tended to the ruin of Ireland. Mr. 1. H. BROWNE declared his opinion,that the appOintment of Martial Law had contributed touch to the security of Ireland, He acknowledged with the Hon. Gentleman, that Peace was dne of the great Blessings to which they were led to look for securing the tranquillity of Ireland, but in the mean time, other measures were also necessary— such was the one now proposed—it was putting the axe to the 'root of that evil system of tetior which prevailed there, nor did he see arty other way of. bringing the ringleaders of that conspiracy to justice. 'Mr. O'HARA was of opinion that Ireland was now in a very different Situation than when this Law was first made. Then, a Committee of Con spiratori aatially sat at Dublin, where the disaffec tabn raged, ; , but at present Ireland wore the face .of peace and agricultural' pursuits ; disaffeaioo was. confined to a very few - counties, nor-could local dis turbances he adduced in proof of a general spirit of revolt. The provinces of-Connaught and Munster were in perfeft Peace, with an exception of two counties—with an exception of four or five counties throughout the whole Kingdom, Ireland was pro • fessedly in a state of Peace. He wished'the Corn mittee had:referred to the Judges of Ireland they would have stated that they found no difficulty in executing the Laws, not even in the provinces of Leinster and Ulster. He thought it would have been better to have empowered the LORo LIEU TENANT to take up suspicious persons-in cases of necessity. Sir F. BURDE7T was of opinion, from the statement of the Report of the Committee, that the Martial Law Bill had produCed no good effdl. Sir R. B:UA:1-0N- quoted part of the Report ; " to prove thAt the 'Committee was convinced the Martial l i ativ Bill had had a very good eft - ea, and recommended this measure to be continued. Sir . 7. PARNELL said, if it were necessary that the-Ordinary course of Law should-be suspend ed, he wished it, might be only for a short period, at the same time he rather wished- for the adoption of conciliatory measures. He wished also that the Report of the Committee had stated the whole of the situation of Ireland : in that case the state of Leland would rather appear to haVe: been a state of despondency, distress,.and suffering. In such a state itAvas certainly no easy matter to reconcile that Country to its Government. The migrations from Ireland, in consequence of this spirit of despondency, were incalculable; He thought it would have been Newt, - if the• Committee had sliewn that its attention Was turned to the real interests of Ireland, as a means of conciliating it. Nor did it appear, from the Repoi 4 i, that the best• means had been taken to establiSh - the fad, that the ordinary Courts of Jus tice had been impeded for want of The attendance of Evidence ; inquities•on this subjea had been made of Courts 'Martial and Military Officers, instead of applying to the jildgeS Of the Land. He:did not - see wherein the prudence of the Committee consisted, in concealing where rebellion and disaffdtion pre vailed, but he thought it vLry imprudent to have . stated, that the Landed Interest of Ireland had sent. a person accredited to France, with a vie w . ,of con-. netting themselves .With that Country. Whoever made that assertion, he would venture to say, was totally ignorant - of Itetand, for he would bear testi mony, that there. lid tacit exist a mole loyal body of Men, than what composed - the Landed Interest of Ireland ' they were the most attached . Of any to Great Britain, and had generally been led' to look to a connection with this Country, for the security of their property. The Report Only. mentioned Courts Martial in the course of the year, a number so 'small as to afford no proof of general disafreaion ; nor ought the unqualified assertion of Military Of- , fieers, in favour of'the mode of Courts' Martial,: to be regarded, at a tine when . z9'Counties were per - - fdtly tratiquil; He thought that the situation of Ireland, even from that Report, was better now ' than it had been. -Instepd .of continuing au govern Ireland by. poWer, some substantial measures ought to he take!), consulting her foclinis, and she Wing a real attention to her interests, by increAsing her Agriculture,. and ,by sheaving that : the- Imperial Par liament was as- anxious to promote 'the , ) ,yelfare of that Country as of this. . Mr. LEIGH saiLl,, it was true that an iodividaal had presumed to state to the French Rulers the sen. timents th , - 7 ,nwri of properly in Ireland, but he did not, believe that person Was accredited by their, fOr no 1304 of men were more loyal, and had they not stood inthe.gap at the risk of every thing dear to them, Ireland Would probably 'have been lost, and they thenielves Might Lave been fugitives'thiatigh the countries of Europe.. He was at a loss to know What - those soothing lied conciliatory 'mehttures were to which the Flop. Baronet referred. With regard to the establishment of, Courts. Martial, thin was necessary To give security to the: lives'and property of witnesses, &c. ; rot that this was a better mode in itself, but it had been found more effedUal under existing 'Circumstances for the prompt administra don of Justice. He defended the Report of the COm triittee, as cxacily corresponding to the, statements which had been made by different Irish Members in the House. The plans of the disaffetted inlreland were now carried on with more secrecy than fnrmerly, under the direetion of an Executive Committee, who did not entrust the mass of the people with the secret.; and in proportion as the chance of finding out evi dence. to convict was greater now, so the schemes o f the clisaffitted were mare dangerous. He stated se veral circumstances of late assassinations, .inc nsist- . ed, that h: d it not been for the proteelion which-the Martial law had afforded to witnesses, thP Judges se( uld cot haVe been able to exercise: gate, einent. Sir W. G. NVITOME. I V,. declared, that the Country of Ireland was in a very deplorable state, and could only be savedhy such a Bill as the present ;. and if it werelibt fof the - Martial . Law.now exist = ing, he was persuadetl that ten times the number of Judges would- not be able to do their duty in Ireland. He had the - fullest convietion that if the Bill did not pass that Country was'undone. Mr. jONES said, that from the concurrent state. ments.` of Gentlemen from Ireland-he-wns• inclined to vote for the Bill, but he wished to know whether any application had been made to the Judges of Ireland to know from them the state of that Country. Sir J. PARNEI.L explained. Mr. G. OGLE said there could he no doubt but that 'lreland at the present moment wanted this Law ; it was demanded from a regard- to the Lives and Property of all the Landed Men of that Coun try. A spirit of disaffeaion and insurrection per vaded the whole land, which would lead to open 'Rebellion if opportunity offered. He mentioned a late transaaion. A Committee of Conspirators had been seized in Dublin ; the Pi lure of the First Consul 'was hung over the President's head, and various Paper's had been taken. There were also Emissaries of: the dissaffeaed in Ireland now in this Country ; an Irish Direaory was aaually sitting at Paris, who held a constant Correspond ence with another Committee sitting at Hamburgh. Emissaries from England and Ireland were also.sent to Hamburgh, who again carried on a Correspond ence with the Committee in, Dublin, and when any news favourable to their wishes transpired, it was immediately seat to the distant counties, sometimes two or three days sooner than the Government in formation arrived. He begged therefore that Eng lish Gentlemen :who .thought themselves so secure would take care of themselves, and remember that an adder was sometimes found even upon a. v iolet bank. • Colonel COOTE'declared this . Bill was' absolutely necessary, in order. to grapple with the . disaffeaed, .and to mar their projects. He -then *proceeded to an eulogium on the : Administration .of the Marquis CoRN*ALL, whose condua and. vigilance deserved .the applause and gratitude of Ireland. ~ Mr. ALEXAN R expressed his surprize that 'the Hon, Baronet (Sir J. PARNeLL) had called that ,the despondency of Ireland,.lwhich more properly 'was the despondency of the Traitors of Ireland, but not ,the.despondencrof the Gentlemen, Yeomanry, and Militia of . Ireland. He thought also that it . was of a mischievous tendency for the Hon. Baronet to.talk of altering the situation of the Lower Or derS in Ireland,: without stating what it was: -he would have done for them.- He would ask, whe ther sums of money had -not been voted for encou raging and promoting the Agriculture and Manufac tures of that Country ? •The Question was then put and carried; .that leave be given to bring in a Bill to continue for a dine to be limited the A for establishing Martial , Law in Ireland. INDEMNITY BILL. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, it was an •a& of immediate justice which the Country owed to those persons who were' plaCed in arduous and re sponsible situations,, and who were called upon in . the discharge of their duty, to order or execute pe rilous but ,salutary measures, in the apprehension , ol . Persons pursuing treasonable praaices, to give them that indemnity which.the. ordinary forms of law could not afford them. SUch was the nature of the situation in which they were placed, that' they could not disclose the grounds that required them to ati in some instances, upon . .some'what less precise evi dence than. what was requisite in legal proceed ings. He proposed, that the extent of this indem nity should he large, ample, and extensive ; that it'should enable all persons liable to . be implead_ eti for apprehending persons suspe&ed of trea- Sonable pratlices i to plead in evidence upon the ge neral issue, and 'to stay proceedings upon application of Judgment, as in cases where Judgment was given, to. stay the execution thereof.' HAS Majesty's Mi_ • nisters, during the Suspension of the Habeas Cor pus Aft, had been necessarily entrusted with a discretionary power, and, it was not fit that they should, be 'left exposed•to any legal attack, more especially as he believed r he could assert, that not one of those.persons who .had been .for a. moment deprived of their liberty, but who had been found in circumstances by which . it ,appeared.that they had :been rightly .so . deprived ; but even: suppbSing there were.any exCeptions, the inconvenience sus rained .was unavoidable, when it became necessary ,that means should be taken for the prote&ion of the Country. Sir. ED Witith said that what he proposed was, with the permiision of the House,: to bring, in a Bill as tomorrow, and move that it be printed; then •to move the second...reading op TueSday next. He then moved for leave to bring in a Bill for indemnifying' such persons as. have acted from. the ist of February, 1793, in the • apprehension, imprisonment, or detention in prison of persons suspected of High Treason or of Trea. .sonable Pra&ices. . Mr: GREY said, that although he was not bound to adopt the plan which the Learned Gentlethan had laid 'clown for discussing this .measure, yet .as it would perhaps be more convenient to discuss the IBM on the second reading, he should reserve what ever objedions he had to the Bill till that °ppm.- . tunity. He' could not however avoid in the pre. sent instance stating, that the, explanation which the Learned Gentleman had given of . his motives for bringing. in the Bill, did not satisfy him. He had merely stated its general objet; but as it had bet escaped the observation of the Learned Gentle man that this measure might in some cases be one of extreme oppression,' he-Was surprized that he had not staled some precedent for it. in 'the case of the Suspension of, the Habeas 'Corpus, the persons in Government then exercised their power, subjea to • • their responsibility, and though' they had as good reason to obtain proteaion as.-the late or the pre ; sent Administration, he did trot recollect that any measure of this kind was ..proposed. He might be mistaken. in supposing there were 'no precedents for such a sill, but if there were any, he should, have been glad to have heard them stated. He thought it 'there were .no-1 recedents for this ;measure,. it was incumbent upon the Lekrned GentleMati to thew whit were the particular circumstances Of the case that .rendete&.suekailiili necessary. Ile.would, as he beforii stated, reserve himself for the second read ing of the Bill; but it really appeared to him to 11.? one more inconsistent with the spirit of the Consti tution, than any measure which had been proposed fur the last six years. The ATTORNEY GENERAL rose to state, for the information of the Hon. Gentleman, that after the great . Rebellion, viz. 1746, there was an Ad passed similar to the one now proposed ; there was also one in- -178 or -though not so extensive in its provisions as the one he had now the honour of proposing. These - Aets were certainly the ground_ work of the present-Bill; though he had not con fined himself to copy the -stria words, where he .thought that others could be introduced more el. .feattal for the objet in view. 41C/-/DAE said, he merely rose in con sequence of an,Hon. Gentleman having stated, that there was no precedent for a measure of this kind. Two precedents had been stated, and in addition he begged leave to read the opinion of Lord &Ali RS. [The Hon. Member theit read an Extraa of the opinion of Lord SOMERS in favour of a Measure of this nature.] Sir F. BURDETT opposed the motion. • Mr. TIERNEY concurred with his Hon. Friend in thinking that it would be more convenient to re serve the discussion of the Bill till the second read ing, therefore he should not enter into the question at present, but hetwished to know how it came to . be recommended by this Committee of Secrecy. It seemed to him rather singular, that th e persons who as Members of 'the Committee recommended, the nieasure, were those (at least some of them) who would derive the benefit of the at of Indemnity,— This—would certainly have a strange appearance - upon the Journals, and he could not but think that `the suggestion upon which this Bill was founded, came from' an improper source. If it had been known when this Committee - was appointed, that they would have felt themselves authorised to take ,this subjeft- into • their consideration, they Would not have been so appointed. It would be recollected, 'chat upon former occasions, when it was proposed.. co suspend the Habeas Corpus, Ministers had been. interrogated upon the subjea of a Bill of In. demnity, but the then ATTORNEY GENERAL( Sir J. SCOTT) contended that it was unnecessary, because ,they were ading in conformity to the , of the Land. He confessed that he thought. Mini -sters Would have aded .more . constitutionally and more manfully, if they had adopted a very different line of conduit. The present rn,asure, in his opi 'nian, gave something like a sandion to an idea : which was entertained by some persons, that there was a kind of juggle between the present Ministers and those 'who had preceded them in office ; he dared to say there was no foundation for such-an insinu ation, but wicked people out of dobrs did circu late it; and the present proceeding did in some de gree seem to justify it. Upon these grounds, with out at present entering into the merits of the pro posed Bill., he could not but think that this question should be referred to the consideration of another • Committee differently constituted. Mr. PITT said, that as it seemed to be gene rally admitted that this was not the proper stage •for discussing the merits of this Bill, heshould de tain the House but for a few moments. . As to the insinuations of wicked men Which the Hon. Gentle. Man had alluded to, but which he had said he did not adopt, he (Mr. PITT) should take no - noticeof therm: until they were adopted and stated by. some .Meal ber of that House. He rose only to make an obser vation upon one or two points in wh ich he conceiv ed the Hon. Gentle Man to' have been completely mistaken.—ln the first place, with resped to the opinion which he supposed a late ATTORNEY GENE RAL (Sir J. Scott) had given, that there was no occasion for a Bill of Indemnity because they were acing legally ; he believed the Hon. Gentleman was not corred in ,his recolledion of that circumstance. The opinion of that Learned Gentleman was indeed asked upon the subjed, but he did not think it his duty, as ATTORNEY GRNERAL, to state upon suppoi cd cases, how he should advise Ministers to exercise' a power which had been entrusted to them for the purpose of preventing meditated treason. He be. lieved that that Learned Gentleman thought that some wicked persons without doors, wished to know haw to condud themselves in such a manner as to render the execution of the Law inefFedual. The Gentleman had fallen' into another,mistake this 13111 was not proposed to screen persons . from punishment-who had' broken the Law, but it was to prated -persons from punishment who had• acted ac. cording to the Law, and who, if they should be accused, could not defend themselves without dis closing secrets which they could not disclose with out_tlig_gr6atest danger to the lives of individuals, 'and to the State. This was the ground on which the Bill was ptoposed, and not to protest persons who had violated the Law. That in the exercise of so, great a power, some. irregularities might have occurred, he could very readily suppose, though be was riot aware that any such had happened. The next question was, upon what evidence were they called upon to pass this If the °hied of this Bin was to secure persons who, if accused, could'not make their defence without great public inconvenience, and without stopping . up , those channels of in te lli. Bence, by means of which, the dangers which threatened the State had been averted, then it be came necessary to ask, upon whom.would the House depend for information ?...And this' brought the question to the construction of the Committee. As to' himself, as one of the Meinbers of - the late Ad,. ministration, he certainly was responsible, deeply responsible to the State, for all the measures he had advised ; but certainly not in this case personally responsible, because it was the Secretary of State who issued the Warrants. It could not, he was sure, be.supposed for a moment, that in making . this observation, he meant to get rid of any respon csoiltslisliidlyeretdvhtiicleh belonged r r e e s a p l o l) n r s . ibilty t o t % o v hich ebuwta:stslihae ble as quite sufficient, he was by no means ambiti- Otis of any more. With regard to-the formation of this Committee, there was only himself and another t e t r e s ° G i ore r n nm i te;nwt ha re th M e Hi s Q em ue b s e t r i s o o n f was, M Whethe 's Whether ajesty •frottrthat circumstance, the judgment of the other Gentlemen of the Co mm i ttee cou ld b e . supposed to be so vitiated, that it was nece ssar y to sen d t h e su bj ed • to the consideration of another Committee ? Upon this point; however, not enlarge it was more proper that other . Gentlemen shotild deliver their opinions. The whole point resolved itser s'iortly into this fart, whether persons who had done their duty should be punished, because they were precluded from stating the farts necessary to their defence, and whether the evidence laid before the House was such as to justify them in passing this Bill ? Upon these points he should say nothing at present, but he thought it right to set the Hon. Gentleman right with respea to the mistakes into which he had fallen. Mr. TIERNEY said, his objcftion merely went to. the point of form. He only wanted to know whether the Committee could engraft -upon their RepOrt a new subject Which was not referred to them by the House. Mr. BRAGGE said, that if the Report of the Committee-.was not correct, with a ,view to the Bill then before the House, that Report could not have been correaly used as the foundation of the Martial Law Bill, because there was no more recommendation to the Committee to take up that' subject, than there was with respeCt to the one now before the House. If the Committee had pro. posed any irregular Resolutions to the House, they would undoubtedly have deserved the censure:dila had been thrown out ; but in his opinion they had aCied with pedal regularity, and in strut conformity to the Rules of the House. If a-Committee , on whom c al en, would t u al proposed i n 7u d p : od t so i e e ud s b e were fod rlmy a be l Resolutions irregular imposed, w e ; nt b o to out t of e never considered it as irregular in a Committee CO make suggestions to them as to what they thought • ought to be done. .The Rinse must recolleft, that ttheli House had t H he o i ti r se way , . and t it was done last Sesiiim by the Coal Committee, and in a variety of other instances; The measure . which was now proposed, was not to he conV-eted as entirely retrospeCtive, because it appeared from . the Report of -the Committee, that the late Mt which lead passed for suspending the Habeas oCorpus Act,, would be,ineffeetual this measure was adopted. reilirgENCE said, thit he had hither to front , principleiupported.tjle Suipensioii of the Habea s c or• pus, and , while! the preSent state of affairs continued, nt he would supp9rt it. Hig Mason for doing so was be cause he considered the SuSpensinn of that MI 45 . 1 great, resource of Government in times of peFOr danger, and because sok anceators had always resort: ed to it in similar cases. On the one hand he s iloold always oppose investing t li e Government with tary power . ; but.. on . the other he should, when thought there was real' dangee, give his coneurrenc, 41 : to. the SUspension of the Habeas Corp us. felt himself bound to go this length, hut .° farther; be would consent to give an indemniti only to those who: upon evidence appeared to, b , e entitled to 'it ; he could not give IndemnitY ru r '. cruel4r or harshness in the exercise of - this powe r , be by no means meant to say, that any cruelty b 3: been exercised ; he had - nOt the slightest re:lsn n t ia suppose so ; he only meant to say, that he not won. not go bey o nd the line which had been established by precedent. When the regular security :chi L the Law afforded was -taken aw ay, necessary that those who were entrusted with ex : traordinaty , power should not at WifbOtit reSe 11 ( . 1 c i bility. With regard to the point of farms, ' appear to bins that there was an irrco-ulitrity, certainly- was not satistied with ° the ex9 1 "1: which had been given by the Hon..Gentlernsn ‘to' spoke last.. It was true that it was 'compttCol the Committee to offer , suggestions. to the House, .1 311 did not think they had . any power 'given them hY,` ..4 House to enter into a'n examination of the coo t ; of Ministers for thC last six years. M I, e mode in which this Committee-had been forineula, it was the mare Was aorry,.to say it did not meet with his 41°, 0 tion ; it certainly was not the plan which bad 1 )- 0 adopted on' former occasions. In . former cases , s le , in one in particular which occurred to him, GeotA men were chosen from both sides of the Flour. 3 . “ bc they formed a pretty accurate representation o of h: ' general sense of the House. The majority f Committee being composed of persons who, .i n r o t neral, voted in the Majority, and the minority, jo Gentlemen who were generally in Opposition ; the present' case, the Gentlemen were all of and he was apprehensive if this pradice was aloha. ed, th a t - R e ports .would not, in future meet with triii respect with which he . always wished to see they trtatted. • P Th CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEL'' C ,. it , certainly would not be regular for lion t ° j'all then into an investigatkon of the manner, in any former Committee was constitated. car'', ed Friend who had spoke last had said, ti '`';o l Comtnittee to which he more particularly 31° tot was a fair representation' of the opinion ° t. t al s House ; but those who recollefted the' diseuss!' „ must remember, that thtre never was a ire which took place upon the Report of. the torn' T jo rc strongly contested by those' Gentlemen R e port : l ore generally . pinio t ' Gen' Committer, tie, a , p )ss t o ) t o icl s ro c en d : t. t i o tlu . t c te o ad rs p, c l : ii tr ai.rs,e i td n ant o h, minority of the Committee. One Right t hat a of hen an tlernan went so-far as it'scalf - the Rerr, r ,, t ,'„, pria feet which was produced by this mode Gi Committee WHe as not very.encouraging. c a io uld difficulty. in forming his opinion, and a nds feel no' difficulerin stating to the Howe the of I" why he could not, consistently with his itie'ts icon, ,duty, give his consent to any of the who generally oppOsed. ,the measuresof ° 0 pa, ment being upon this Continittee. Lie tn ea in i o ra disrepeCt. to those Gentlemen, but which they had constantly advanced, fornle d . 3 ll stack which he could not, consistently Riots , sense sense of public duty, get over.. As to rise obts,;i:to. the or which had been made in .point of form, it se c ', l t yir c him that what had fallen from his Hon. Frio "• was` , decisive upon the subj eal ti 4 P ers ciple of order seemed to him to be this : If Pa l ' were referred to a Committee to consider the to t he ter thereof, and to report their opinion House, that Committee was undoubtedly anth,eetej. to recommend to the House any measure cou, , , to with, and arising out of • the P a p ers so referrLon, them. The , Hon. Gentleman had howevc tended, that the . measure wh ich had been , t h a c , c : 0 , 0 . mended, - was one which did not arise ott.l,,sdint Papers referred to the Committee. Upon i t; be he was at issue with the Hon. Gentleinairt:_ ha a wai decidedly of opinion, that the Comm 0 a