The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

tn_uch bett er if the Government had made the period of en listment for the first for a term of fourteen years, and at the enlistxpiration o f t h at time gave the soldier an opportunity of re the better way to improve the condition of the army would be. which tineherse the p ens i ons to the soldiers. Tile principle upon It atioh these pensi ons were bestowed were absurd and impolitic. the t o t be said that this would ental very great expense on b ett c _ o _ "try ; the more expens;ve, however, war was made the got to war upon such slio he liked it, for it would prevent the na ion Used to do Ist pretences as they were et ° , • He felt the gre .test interest in the condi of the private soldier and the non-commissioned officer, wee 'nfantry, the cavalry, and the ordnance of this country atWar had best in the world. The Right Hon. the Secretary had most i njudiciously and incorrectly stated that the thm Y " at pre sent i n a state of slavery, in consequence of denied that a ssert i on. They might depend upon it, that if they A __ e l dopen th ose advantages to the soldier, they would not in "c him to get rid o f t h e on l y fa i l i ng the Brit i sh so ldi er h a d t o c ombat with nthibaekse tozed. the upon s q He would no' trouble their Lordships with any further observations he thank e d th em f o r the attention they po u n es t t h io. the few remarks he had felt it necessary l __Lo r d STRAFFORD then addressed the House at some "gth t but his observations were perfectly inaudable in the gallery. raenLotrd DE ROS had some doubt as to whether the induce held out by her Majesty's Government to the old soldier ''fould cause him to re enlist, or to join those bands of pen sun:Mfrs of which mention hail been made. In the event of its tiietirbreoionmg rt, the most serious inconvenience would arise from e necessity of taking a large number of raw recruits to fill In the cavalry, of which he was more qualified to lore from of the infantry, much serious inconvenience would !rise from the recruits' want of knowledge with regard to their They world require men who were experienced grooms, ~,4 nl it n ot men who three months before had been tailors or sh'oe t7LdH.he.did not see hew such en evil was to be got over. o these grounds, and on others which he would not trouble b d Lords, p, by stating, as the objections they contained t b a slready been put forth by others, he should not support Lord CLEVELAND said that he did not think that this Measure would accomplish two of the great objects which it Professed to accomplish, namely, that of inducing a better class of men to enlist in the army, or that of keeping them in the_ though t When their period of enlistment had expired. H t'llght that twenty years was the utmost period that a soldier should be c a ll e d upon to serve, for their Lordships had to con sider that he had to bear the extremes of heat and cold—he ,had to unde rgo fatigues and privations, and the effect was that 'es', after ten y ears ' servitude could boast of a strong or healthy constitution. He should certainly recommend that all soldiers discharged at the end of ten years servitude should have a Peesion of 6d. a day- Lord STANLEY sa id th a t he felt the greatest difficulty in d ealing with this question, but his difficulties would have been greatly increased if he supposed that his Noble Friend the Duke who sat near him had recommended its adoption to the Government. But although the Noble Duke hail declared bls intention of voting for the second reading of the measure, still they might gather from his speech that he at best thought that the evils which were threatened by the measure might possibly be avoided, and they could easily gather from him, that he was inclined to think it an uncalled for, and, at best, a doubtful measure. The Noble Earl sought by it to make the army popular, and :to assist, by the training of an efficient militia, the military defences of the country. The Noble Earl's address for the first hour and a half was exceedingly in teresting, as showing the efforts that had been made to improve the condition of the army, but not one word of that portion of his address had reference to the present measure or in any dis tant manner bore affinity to it. Let the Government go on improving the moral condition of the men—let them improve their domestic comforts—let them improve the quality of thei r prov i s i ons— l et them give them libraries and means of mental recreation, but giving these, would it be al leged that they were incompatible with enlistment for periods al the individual's pleasure ? It was alleged that the army was ~40 p ular. Where was the proof that it was so ? Was this calculated to make it more so? He thought not. He had return s of the enlistment from 1817 to 1838 (and this in a time 9 1 Peace) in the London district, and he found that out of the Ini tense number of 12,006 who had enlisted, only 218 had cho sen the p er i o d o f l imited service. But he would take a li a t t. i r s t °n g e r ease. He found that from the year 1809 to the year I )4 ; l u b ' e 3 r 9 o ,6 al tl y 7 persons had enlist e d in Dublin, and out of this But thi s 95 menhad chosen the limited period of service. all trip% System was put an end to in 1829 by order from the Government? Then why a ppeal to that House on this question ? Why appeal to I , . re a r i l t i e a d me e n n t lis t t h en ? An order could at once command that recruits —_they should be the rule from that flay forward. testy Whited took from the agricultural labourers, who were their took from the manufacturing districts who wete their next best recruits—hut if they passed this Bill, !n:Yr would begin to take from the class of lawyers clerks, and u ! result would be, that they would have a dissatisfied and in 3thobordinate body of men in the army. It was his opinion that thar who entered the army as the law now stood, considered _ r _ it did not matter whether they inlisted for a limited period 0 for life • but if their Lordships passed this Bill, they would be oldin' il ath h i • g out an i n d ucement to t h e scape-grace or It nkl nt; youth to enter the army.—( Hear, hear.) b y Would le to the manning f the servic Ng .", cl ass of men who would look upon their duties as a tem e of nrY occupation instead of a profession. Now, the success no arnsy—the efficiency of the army it would be denied by j u P t a "Y, depended upon the existence of a different feeling. pro ' f l,ancy then applying the same rule to any other trade or cam e _ 'ion Could they ever ensure success or perfection in any e..,arug, where a feeling was only encouraged, that the parts- The trad e or professio n was to be mporary and not permanent. I dea was p oppcoed n o t only to te experience, but to common itivnle,sandi yet that was in point of fact the principle enunciated :ipoints 811. He had now disposed of the arguments of three ti t e n e t . erged in favour of this Bill by the Noble Earl who intro eneu':,,,t, and he had now to say a word, and a word would be esnt to the reason a idneed by a Noble and Gallant Gene „i?"ho he did now see in his place, in support of this Bill. ,J, 1 _ Noble an d Gallant General seemed to think that the pro °ns of this Bill would prevent the desertion of the soldier tit ti ha d served in the army for some length 13i11 ; ne t Why, were was t h e necessity for a he foun ° prevent suc h an occurrence as that, when 8 Wh Wh oerge ' the published returns, that of the number ofpersrns serted from the British army, nearly the wh o l e o f them and e )°o ng recruits, wh o were di sguste d w i t h t h e h ardships severe dis ci pli ne o f the first year's dri:l. Th e same N o bl e th'-'°4l als o remarked that the provisions of this Bill would have e effect of inducing commanding officers to pay more atten tion to the conveniences and comfOrts of his men. Such an argument as that only served to threw discredit upon the exer tions of past commanding officers, while it only al tered the present principle thus much, that if a soldier Misbehaved himself, this Bill would place in the hands of his commanding officer power to offer a reward instead of chastisement for amendment, and thus held out a premium for the acts of the wrong-doer. Looking, then, to the experience of the past, and acting upon the conclusions that such experience must lead to, he called upon their Lord ahips, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Duke the Commander-in -Chief, not to pass the measure. The Earl of lIARDWICK said he rose to call the atten tion of their Lordships to a branch of this ssbject which had not yet been touched upon. Their Lordships were aware that this Bill applied to the marines as well as to the army. Now, it was well known that it took five years' servitude to make a good marine. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the enlistment of marines should take place for a longer period than ten years. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that it was with the most sincere conviction that he believed the present measure Would tend to popularize the army, and by so doing improve i ts moral condition. He could not, for a moment, believe that ttick he passing of this measure would be attended with that or danger which some of his Noble Friends Laid said would attend it. It had been said that the good soldiers would leave at the end of ten years, hY under the existing system, with respect to the good con duct warrants, only about twenty-five persons per annum had a vailed th emselves of its provisions ; and was it to be supposed ( T r at such great numbers would leave the army on the passing b t his measure ? It was a supposition perfectly unwarranted bY e the experience of the past. If he thought that such would pot i t ne result, he should most certainly not have given his sup•• y „ tn ,the measure. The principle of the BM was founded „ 4 1 ,1`, t . l tne Principles of human nature, and unless the British States`i diflerently constituted from the soldiers of other •i the measure would be as eminently successful in this as in other countries. t 4 41 BRouG HAN' said that their Lot dships had only sat there since five or six o'clock, but he hail been there since ten " c lock th th at l at morning. He had been sustained there through a i th _ l e nd sitting by the interest that the debate had excited, b,2 3 ,n e gh he felt extremely fatigued from the length of time he felt there. He had no military knowledge or skill, but b e e bound to express to their Lordships the views none entertained upon this subject. The measure was c of the Comatander-in-Chiers suggestion. The Lornmander. in-Chief would have been the last man to `... l _ 4 e t ti e suggested such a measure to the country, and he had not yeassanctioned it by his high authority. In speaking upon this andin ure, his Noble Friend had only moderately supported it, while, on the part of Government, he spoke in favour of the m easure, he g ave hi s reasons for doing so, every one of Which reasons told all against it. Those reasons were all Meant to guard his own consistency, and they did most amply guard it ; and his warning to the Government to l eave th e arm y !lone, seemed to say that lie would give them his assistance 'f they wished it, but they had better leave it alone. The Noble Duke had addressed he was ressed the t ßouse t:ita no tit t e a re g l a,r a ,s ,, t ai t h h s e t pentaormesem portioneasu for of r that twrnh asurShies, vo t:ad been droppe y d by the way, and which might be retrospective in its operations, or might render the re-enlistment of the soldier, after the 10 or 12 Bears had expired, no l onger a matter o f opt i on. He (Lord rougham) had never, in any debate in that House, heard speeches delivered by his Noble Friends round him, and espe cially the Noble Lord who spoke last, in which the arguments used were so utterly at variance with each other, or where the different portions of their speeches were so conflicting. There seemed to be a doubt as to the result of the measure itself, and although it was supported, it was supported in so timid a strai n, • that it almost lo o k e d like condemeation. His Noble Friend opposite had stated that the object of the measure was to make the army popular. Was not the present law, as it related to the army, quite as well calculated to effect that ob jfe°et• Th e l aw permitted enl i stment for l ife, for seven, or for iB nlteen year! ; at least that was allowed down to the year os'ut when it was sus p en d e d b y an order of Lord Hill. The ve rnment had, howe ver , s till th e p ower t o en f orce li m i te d tl)llstment, without bringing the measure so fully under . e discussion of the Houses of Parliament. They i ou ld at any time issue an order reversing the order of Lei s Hill, Hill, and there was their object attained at once. po ll ',obits Friend had said that one of the ways to be used to th i : 4 " r i ,, e as he called it, the army was to make dismissal from rankshis ; punishment. How did that agree with the rest of sh e Nutrients, for at the end of a period of ten or twelve years this ' s would be dismissed and re-enlist. Ile thought that of ienleasure was preg n ant with all the seeds, he would not say latetistehordination, but of discontent. It was one not calcu- Was - ° improve the condition and efficiency of the army, and s s nPerfltiou s an d f ru itl ess t rou bl e . Thi s Bill p ro f esse d t o aeirllothing that they could not have done without a Bill at all, !ad w ithout caused weeiethoeuattitte by fruitless discussion end trouble which i this measure. The proceeding in that 'rer sati wo uld in a short time form the subject of military con that h nns all over the country. In less than twelve hours all seldi er ar b een said in that House would be known to every They would koos s ' t o, 8 t• James's and all over the country. offi cer at it seemed to bo the unanimous feeling of all the Biers who had addressed the House that night, that the sol ceedi,:drnot sufficiently large pensions. Would not such pro by thea:,:le c alculated to excite discontent and dissatisfaction measure. mot to enforce a needless, useless, and superfluous bro ught He deeply lamented that such a measure had been t forward H teelim e t h . • e strongly and conscientiou•ly opposed it; . and t t h e fu e rt, ee evils it would create, he for one, should vote agents E arl Progress of this Bill.—( Hear. ) hi s ` - `rtY said that the 'Noble and Learned Lord had, in tioet!):'Cll indulged in some romantic ideas upon this subject, of his Seth,, he replied strongly—presuming upon the ignorance any rate, fle ,arers- The Noble and Learned Lord should, at aria L nave known the law as it then existed. The Noble Gri ver red Lord had the other evening spoken against the thorised to in c oun in e e i t i lt for taking it upon themselves to issue an order , d which, by Parliament, they were distinctly au- Uec tsw , 0. Time Noble Lord now stated that there was no 444. y for this Act, as the power for enlisting for a " P a-110 d already existed . He could state to the TEE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1847 Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of an act of Parliament. The power, as it now exis!ed, did not warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore this Act became necessary. lie would not detain their Lord ships any further except upon one point, namel:', that he had been represented as stating thpt the condition of the British so'dier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing, but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument, gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier. With reference to the application of this measure to the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be applied to the marines. It certainly would not be thought necessary to establish a separate system for the two. He had already gone sufficiently far into this subject before, and he should not then detain their Lordships any further. After a few words in explanation from Lord BROUGHAM, The House divided, when there appeared:— For the amendment— Non-contents present Proxies 94 Against it— Contents present Proxies —lOB Majority against the amendment —l4 The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Their Lordships then adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 26. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. SECOND READINGS. The following- Bills were read a second time, and or dered to be committed:— Lancashire, Cheshire, and North Wales Drainage Inclosure Company's Incorporation. Limerick Docks and Harbour. REPORTS. The reports on the following Bills were brought up and agreed to: — Ayrshire and Galloway Railway (Smithstown to Dal- wellington). Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail. way (lease to the Ipswich and Bury St. Edrulnd's Railway Company). Wolverhampton Hates. ',lartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Extension). GOVERNMENT PLAN OF EDUCATION. Several petitions were presented for and against the Government plan of education. WESTMINSTER AND LAMBETH-BRIDGE as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered to the measure, and looking back with even greater astonish ment that this opposition should he offered in the name of civil and religious liberty. B u t would nut future ages look !sack with still greater astonishment at the fact that there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coun try, and that they were debarred the means of education. Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes leyans and other parties from participating in the Government grant ; but now, when it was' proposed to exclude. them alone, he considered them to be deeply injured and insulted. They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading the Scriptures in the sctsools. He considered this a most un worthy course, and the motion which he had to propose was to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the question. Th e Noble Lord the Member for the 'West Riding of Yorkshire, said the other night that when he became a Member of the Committee of Council for Education, he found certain rules in existence which he considered FO important that he could not consent to their being changed without the melee of Par liament. But he continued to say that if a notice for giving aid to the Roman Catholics were communicated, he would continue a Member of the Committee. It was for that purpose, he (Sir W. Molesworth) had given notice, and hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they had Committed themselves to the country, and the Roman Catholics the other night before the House. Now, it was said, it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo ment; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for bringing it f orwar d at this moment. But why was it expe dient I It w as sa id t h at a general election was at hand—t h at out of doors th ere was a strong feeling against Roman Catho lics. Well if th ere were was that House to part i c i pate i n such feeling. W ere the Members of that House to b e t h e mere puppets o f t h e elective body in carry i ng ou t their wishes. F or hi s part he believed that House were i n advance of the p eop l e, and he considered a seat in t h at H ouse was the highe s t h onour that could be conferred on a man, pre vided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act, and, by heaven, he believed they would succeed.—( Cheers.) The motion having been seconded, Sir GEORGE GREY reae and said he would not detain the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. The Honourable Gentleman had twice risen to make this mo tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself, and he stood t o t h e pledge, that a grant of ass i stance wou ld be given to R oman C atholics. The Hon. Gent l eman h a d not quite taken th e r i g h t course to carry his proposition ; and he thought it w ou ld b e far better to leave the matter i n t h e h an d s of the Go vernment, and when the minutes were frame d for the purpos e it wou l d be time to discuss t h e quest i on.— (Cheers.) For hi s own part, he wou ld a great d ea l rat h er that a minut e was qu i te ready e s , l a y on the table of the House. The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his Noble Friend there certainly was neither. For his own part he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before the House this session, the Government would do so, but he would not pledge himself on the present occasion. Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken. He was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly the course which the Government intended to take in carrying out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord (Russell) did not bring forward the question before this, so that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which had taken place, be thought that no time should be lost, and he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of pre_ Government would be satisfaciory, and that during the ent session the minutes would be brought forward. He would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro prietyof withdrawing his motion; as under the circumstances, he did not think it wise that he should proceed. d be tihnetrwodedugceed,,hovrwathiwehhattt vitiamse,soonrahutndoerinwinhraet r d m e e , r t a a t n io e n es .. H u e , owhojeueltdeddtoo it,ao Lneeonsmealtietehrebliyevewdhio.tmtetbhee circumstances. io n rne S t su h i i question na rr might the great Protestant interests of the countr He hoped he might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which was inimical to the constitution of England, and the great mass of the people. The great body of the ople were opposed to any further concession, and he Pe p prehended that any measure of that kind would a be hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the report of the returns of Catholic marriages made by the Regis trar-General, the t o t a l num b er o f C at h ol i cs in England was less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from the circum stances of Catholics elevating niarriage into a sacrament, it might be presumed that they would have all their marriages celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics; but he thought that the people of England would be too powerful for them and would successfully resist any measure which h a d f or its object the payment of the Catholic priestho o d in the exten sion of the public money to Catholic education. Ile would re sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without liberating his own conscience, and recording his determination to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession. Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might have been his declaration of them, so great was his (Sir R. Peel's) respect for his integrity that he alwas i s believed that he expressed them with sincerity. He could not, therefore, but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex pression to a few hours ago he was only inluenced by a desire to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma jesty's subjects. His Hon. Friend imputed to him a wish to outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal parties lie could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He had no such object in view, and if he had, he greatly feared that that was not the move by which it could be best accomplished.—( Hear. ) In giving expression to the opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the case, and he apprehentied that in the course he took he rather subjected himself to the loss of popular favour. His lion. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of England was only 300,000. Now, if that were the case, he would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but the 148th part of the population. He did not think also, that any measure in their favour was exceedingly popular in that House, for he recollected that, not a week since, a measure of concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine. It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the other religious partiespropose,l. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to embar rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex perience of official life was too recent for him not to know the difficulties which must surround the Government in dealing with this question. The position of the Minister was different to that of an individual in that course. An individual could easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a particular policy • but a ministe r had to consider all the cir - cumstances by wh ich he was surrounded, and his official re sponsibility, ere be could agree to such a course. At present, therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the mea sure, and while he had taken the earliest opportunity of stet. ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics p articipating in the grant, he would not be a party to any vote eolculated to embarrass the Government. He would hope, that after the sp eech of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Ho me Department, on this matter, that the present motion would not be pressed. After that statement, and the pledg e of the Noble Lord to introduce a special minute in orde r to embrace the Roman Catholics, he thought the question mig ht be fairly left in their hands. He agreed with them in not pledging themselves as to any particular time, as it mig ht embarrass them; it was sufficient that for th e rresent the y were pledged to the prin ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after op portunity had been given them to maturely consider the subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course than this. Having made these observations on the question before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark would not press kis motion to a division.—( Hear. ) Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon. Member for the University , of Oxford would open the eyes of the Government, and tuat they would at once act on their con victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland. The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further. No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised, but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that, bat act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark would withdraw his motion. community. Sir B. INGLIS had never before had the advantage of meeting the Hon. Gentleman behind him ( Mr. More O'Fer rall) on common ground before, and he could not refrain from expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially concurring with him as he did on the present occasion. Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the Government gave funds for Mahommedan education in India, it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself, unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position. by placing the religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure. When the Member for the University of Oxford had given his unequivocal support to the principle of education, no felt that there need have been no hesitation on the rapt of the Government. Nevertheless, he did consider tha' it was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the ersnt had not been given solely to secular education, He thought that it was quite an error to suppose that the Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being read by the people. If the version authorised by that church was read in the schools daily, their authorities, he was sure, would find no fault with it. But looking at the many diffi culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any wish to interfere with the religious education of the people. A secular education was still somewhat unpopular. lie ex pected the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi culties which he had alligled to. was one by which Government provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under that conviction would give the Government his support, feel ing assured that they had to struggle with many difficulties which they had endeavoured to overcome. Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of the education of the young of the country. He would always give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and therefore he would oppose the motion. Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would take the advice tendered him from many on both sides cf the House, and withdraw his motion. He (Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it went too far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad mitted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the Government, bat then there were some other sects excluded and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why was that ? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication. But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who were de prived entirely of the advantages to be derived by other of their fellow-subjects. He was sorry, indeed, that the Govern ment had not carried their measure much farther, and made it much bolder at once. He was sure they would have met with greater support than had been given them, great as that had been. He begged again that the Hon. Baronet would with draw his motion Mr. NEWDEGATE said the qustion was too important that he should maintain silence, and give his vote without ex planation. He agreed with the Hon. Member on his left (Mr. Forbes). He honoured the Noble Lord at the head of the Government, for the manly way in which he had brought forward his measure, disdaining to take his coun try by surprise. He repudiated the charge of bigotry which had been thrown out from the other side of the House upon those who rejected the spirit of this motion. He stood by those sentiments and principles which had done honour to this country, and entered intimately into its constitution. Bigotry ! Why some of the Members of that House set m to have been carried away with a fury for educa tion, till in the liberality of their sentiments, as they called them, they opened the national privileges to Jews, Turks, and infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made against him, for supporting principles which he defended against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed too much. Mr. BELLEW, as a Roman Catholic Member of the House, rose to explain his reason for voting in sup port of the Government measure, which was intended to advance the civil and religious liberties of the country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had been given in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country. He thought the measure was called for from the great amount of ignorance which prevailed in this country, and though the members of his own religion were excluded the benefits of the grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring himself, on that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others. He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern ment on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of duty to support the motion. Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a bolder course. He would be very glad to see his own opinions of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some confidence in the Government, he could not suppoit the motion of the Hon. Boronet. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion that if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in extending education towards all, and he thought the difficulties of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear, hear.) He disapproved of the principle of secular education apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi dered that religion should not be separated from education. He thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the general approval with which his plan had been received, and he sincerely hoped that, withont making any distinction of sects, they wonid extend to all the advantages of education. Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the Hon. Gen tleman, who had just sat down, was correct as to the imme diate intentions of her Majesty's Government to bring in a mi nute to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics, then the House would be saved a great deal of unnecessary discussion. He feared, however, that this was riot an exact in terpretation. The lion. Member for Southwark was met with all sorts of professions on both sides of the House. Would the Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring in a distinct minute for them this session ? If the Noble Lord gave such a promise, he (Mr. Roebuck) promised he would not trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connected with the Government, had not opened their mouths on this question. If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would not suffer the contumely. Some Hon. Member, like the Hon. Member for Warwick, would endeavour to raise a no popery cry, and that convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It was a proof that education should be directed to make men virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from the speeches of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous of waiting till that time arrived.—(;Tear, hear.) This seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government. In talking so much about the faith of the Roman Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality of many of the other sects that received aid from the Govern ment grant. The British and Foreign School Society was one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman Catho lics, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity. Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could be admitted on account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of 100,000/. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more; and if the next Parliament was a liberal House of Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of tbat party would be revived, but not otherwise. What is the vote of the 100,000/. but to remove ignorance and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) This was where education was most required, and he therefore objected in tote to the educational scheme; because it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to those who had none.—( Hear, hear.) He wanted some definite pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He ( Mr. Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise, he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord had the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given sufficient explanation, and had called on him further to state his views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to accede to the request he had made. He (Lord John Russell) begged leave tat say that his Right Hon. Friend near him, the Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the grounds why the Government objected to the motion of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed:them selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern ment. They had given them credit for the motives by which they were actuated, and that they were satisfied with the pro mise of the Government. This had been the opinion of the Right lion. Baronet th e M em b er for Tamworth, of the Hon. Member for Wiltshire, of the Hon. Member for Kildare (him - sell a Roman C a th o li c ) , an d other Hon. Mernbeys. He ( was satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath---( Hear, hear)---and, therefore, would not think it necessary to make any further observations; for these reasons he would not t enter into furth er exp l anations on the question.—llhear.) I'he lion. and L earne d M ember for Bath seemed to conceive that no good men could act without some particular interest was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of the Government could possibly have any object to effect except their own. When every member had: been, in the utmost de gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute people,f when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relie s all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, whe ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestant, Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Gentleman had given an expressive warning that there were other populations which required the assistance of Go vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they were placed, and saidjthat he had observed a triumphant smile on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's) at the expression which had fallen from him. But if such were the case the smile was not from the observations made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of which the Hop. and Learned Member complained. But the Hon. and Learned Member hal a further complaint, and had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by some accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with any merit of its own, it would feel that it was required, that it would accomplish something that was great. To this he ( Lord J. Russell) might reply. that if a city in the west of England, sent a representative, who, without any merit of his own, was willing to gain notoriety of his own, by carp and cavil at measures which he himself was unable to devise, that if he wera inclined to draw attention to his theories, without having any particular measure of his own to devise, but was merely in clined to draw attention to theories which were never likely to he realised, were they to be attended to?—(Cheers.) If a certain city in the west of England chose to send a Member merely from caprice, and without any merit of his own, he should re member that there was always a disposition to allow for the de ficiency. —( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Member had stated the example of the Hon. Member for Oxford, and that, in his opinion there ought not to be any allowance to the Roman Ca tholics. But it was on this account proceeding on the notion that all opposition was founded on selfish motives. In short that there was no generosity—no consideration in any of the proceedings of any Member of that House, who was inclined to support the Government. But this he believed to be a very • imperfect view of the question, and without any reference to the question of reli g iens ( T itli°ll, "Prentd ia the Howe Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the Hon. Member for Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics, in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that coarse they had done the greaten harm to themselves. There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. They ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case One thine, however, he begged to in s i st on, notwithstanding what had been said by the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, and that was, that the Roman Catholics should be placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of this country. If the Hon. 13aronet, the Member for South wark ( Sir W. Molesworth) divided the House on this question he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that he was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the subject ; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of the poor both in this country and in Ireland. —(Loud cheers.) Mr. LAW quite felt t h e difficult position in which the Noble Lord (the Memb e r for London) was placed. But this much he would say, that he had well done his duty, both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans which they had proposed, and he was quit e ready to give kis as sent to the defence of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, which was conclusiveon . the score of popularity ; and whether he looked to the late div h i a s t ions, or to the feelings out of doors, he was Protes t ant in stating t the plan was satisfactory to all parties of the commurity. But what was to fol low was a matter for future consideratien , and whether the plans to be hereafter brought forwardwere to be satisfactory not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic gentlemen, who took an interest on this o ccas i on, it would be quite premature to discuss. whether the Douay version was to be used or not, was yet a matter of questio n , an d until that was ascertained, it would be impossible to expres s any opinion upon the matter; but this lie say, th at whatever the plans might be, that no plans, come from what quarter they might, would be received with so much gratification as from him. Yet lie must reserve his guarantee till any of those plans were fairly before the House. Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the time when, in oppo sition to those with whom lie had acted, he had stood by the side of the Noble Lord many }ears ago, when he was engage d in carrying the Corporation and 't est Acts. The Hon. Mem ber for Kerry (Mr. M. O'Connell) had endeavoured to fix a sort of charge on the Noble Lord, that he had neglected the principle of general assistance, but to this the House, by its late divisions, had shown that they were decidedly opposed, and he must say, that seeing the difficulties to w hi ch the Noble Lord was exposed, he felt it but due to e h o i i m tot opposition t o th e mo tion say that on t h e pre . sent occasion he should give his decided of the Hon. Member for Southwark. Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no body was more decidedly interested in the grant to general the e neral m e o d t u i c o a n tio o n f tthhaen Hon.we re the whole of the Catholic body. but Member for Southwark had at least brought forth this benefit, that it had had at least this a dvantage, the bringing out ex planations which ought to be satisfactory to the whole of the many yeti, known rrery Mem. Catholic body. He bad for without any reference expressed out of doors, without any re ber of the present Government, and he had not the slightest doubt that the minute of council which had been promised ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenter s who were would be laid upon the tabl e , an d h e s h ou ld be doing an jujus- connected with Mr. Baines, h e wou ld say that the h es t pro ticvision that cou ld b e ma d e h a d b een made for the provision for he was connected, i e to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which in the event of a division, he refrained the poor. He might have the misfort une t o diff er from sceee of from expres s i ng by h is vote hi s cen ss ence in a m i n i s t r y w ho those who h ai l t a k en part i n t h e d ebate, but there appeared to had exhibit e d suc h an en!igetened reeard for the welfare of the be in the observations of the opponents a singular fo rget f u l ness people, a n d w h o h a d th e means , as well as the will, to confer of the ties whi c h b oun d t h e severa l port i ons of society toge such an i nes ti ma bl e b oon as th a t o f e d uca ti on on th e Catholic ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed the plan of the Government, but he believed that out of doors the highest respect would be felt, for an assembly which had treated this important question in the way in which it had been met, but he must say, in his own opinion, the best possible plan had been devised for the education of the people, and, he believed, that every member of the community would be satisfied with a measure in which the greatest relief was provided where there was the greatest need. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was not at all surprised that the Noble Lord had withdrawn the attention of the House from the question immediately before them ; and ho was not sur prised at the question of the lion. Member fer Wilts. The only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council which granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless a specific answer was given as to when a provision was to be made for the Roman Catholics, he would go our alone and vote for the motion. The whole of the difficulty had arisen from the secret negotiation s which had taken place with the Wesleyans, and it was certainly owing to these understood proccedines that the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in which they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member fsr Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state ment which he had made the other night was neither more nor less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ? Why that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists hail not taken place at Lansdowne Honse, but at the Treasury, and notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so kindly come forward to speak on the matter that such was not the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects were to be sacrificed to the interests of the Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of Mr. Hughes, who appeared to have been the go-between between the Ministry both with the Wesleyans and the Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a deeper intrigue —an intrigue with the Church by which the inte rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex pressly stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them. What then became of the allegations of th e li on . M em b er f or Edinburgh ? Wh y, w h at he }tad assented was substantially correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole of the grant, for the Dissenters and the Catholics had both re fused it. Some promise had been held out that there would be a provision for the Roman Catholics, but it was plainly as serted by the Hon. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni versity of Cambridge ( Sir R. Inglis) that if there was to be any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had entered into a lengthy tirade on the general advantages of education, and had blamed him for apparently doubting them. Why who did doubt them in the present day. Certainly not he; but unless there was some provision made for the Roman Catholics, most decidedly would he oppose tke plan ' • but if the Government would come f orwar d an d say expressly that they would introduce a reeature for the education of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully believed that it would be totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he had told them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the Hon. Member the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion. alltehyo cohuol m s o a o s n ter h s a a v p e po e t n o o t u cd enough of ftl t ie ho s s che . ro sp e ee w t h o e r n ge t n h t e l y e t io h e a n d —when th ey h ad those State spies interm e e l d n dling with the vil lage affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever eatisncghetmhoe.l%"Loßtstuetrgs e o n o tl t e h m e eL . i o n ri t t b y e ,i. m h e . a til t i h me, gaveyrs. e way co congratulatin g t t u h l had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Dunjctorimot'sh)loactmendey ment. He admitted it ; it was a great and ma jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoblepraaanner— a majority obtained by truckling to bigot, y and making conces sions to one and to another, which deserved to be shown u and exposed. If th e R oman Catholics obtained a benefit in these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite, not because of any spirit of concession on the part of the Go vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been struggling for many years to emancipate the Catholics, when should they succeed ? The Noble Lord said in his speech they might not succeed for some time —nay, he said, not for some years. Some years! He (Mr. Duncombe) told him that if :he might have succeeded at once, he might have suc ceeded now, if he bad come down to the House and laid upon the table, whatever opinion Dissenters might have formed, or even have expressed, a bolder scheme, one that went further. If the Noble Lord had said to the House. " Whatever faults it has, it off rs equal benefits to all equally;" then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition from the other side, but he would have succeeded, if not better, at least as well as he did the other night against his (Mr. Dun combe's) amendment. But no, the Government had truckled to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ; and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo sition, had been sacrificed. Mr. I3ROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the hands of the Government. Ile felt confident that right would be done them ; and although in favour of the principle of the motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the question, and which the House, perhaps, were not in circum stances to value, he would vo t e aga i nst t h e motion. Sir W. MOCESWORTII then replied—lie said he had been requested to withdraw his motion, and among the rest by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment he always respected. He ( Sir NY. Molesworth) had often been assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but he could not agree with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that assembly. He (Mr. W. Molesworth) would respect the Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having made a promise to bring forward a motion so , n for a minute to include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. He would on that understanding, with the per.nission of the House, with draw the motion.—( Loud cries of " No," from 1.0 . h sides. ) Mr. BRIGHT wished to explain. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had spoken as though lie had last year voted against the Maynooth grant, because it went to the Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that sui was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.— (Divide. divide.) Mr. J. COLLETT honed that the Hon. Baronet would not withdraw his motion.— (Cries of " Divide.") Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished t o know how the matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to the benefits of the vote, or were they not ? Had a pledge been given that they would ? If not. he hoped the Hog,. Member would not withdraw his motion.—(Loud Cries of " Divide, divide,") amid which, Mr. HUME rose, and said he was gratified with what had fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote ultimately, and with that he thought they ought to be satisfied, without pressing the present motion to a division,—(Loud cries of " Divide.") The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap peered— For the Amendment Against it Majority against the Amendment Mr. EWAR l' then brought forward the amendment of which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only one school receiving State support, children whose parents ob ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may be admitted to the school without being sublect to such reli gious instruction. That appointments under Government be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful candidates for exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be thrown osen to general free competition, on the principle of impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was so equitable that no one could object to it. He would, therefore, rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time of the House with any observations. Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so equitable, that he would not picture to himself any objection to the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of religionists as to another. To members of the Church of X ig land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to the religious feelings of any religious denomination. Sir G. GREY thought that the resolution was the same in principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. 'f he schools to which the Government aid was to be extended were voluntary schools, and he thought that if the principle of this amendment were adopted, their character would be entirely changed, and many of them, if this condition were imposed, would in all probability reject the grant altogether. He could not, therefore, assent to the proposal. Mr. V. SMITH thought there was a practical difference between the two motions. He thought this was a great practi cal grievance, and Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him in that opinion. H e h o p e d th e G overnment would accede to it, more especially as th ere was no c l ass o f religionists who could take offence at it. Mr. FINCH. ie opposed the to it, bemoio Majesty'„ Ministry asset. motion, and ould b h e e fo believed,uriil to beif her ut terly impracticable. Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern ment grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could not sign their names, but had to make a cross. '1 his showed the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti tioned against its further extension. He though the Govern ment plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing circumstances. Mr. HUME was at aloss to understand the last Hon. Mem ber. He lamented the want of education, but he seemed to desire no measure by which that ignorance could be got rid of. The real question was to know how the evil complained of was to be met. lie maintained that a system ef education should be carried out in which secular education might be given to all, religious education to follow. In his own neighbourhood, in Norfolk, there was a population of 1,200 persons who could not read nor write ; they had no school, and were it rendered im perative that they should have a Church Catechism they would not have a school at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support the Hon. Member for Dumfries. Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition of the Government as anything other than an extension of the voluntary principle. As he believed that the ,notion if agreed to would bring the Government in conflict with religious sects in the country, he could not support the motion of the lion. Member for Dumfries. After a few words from Mr. W. MARTYN, which were inaudible in the gallery, re jected, h e s h ou ld certa i n l y vo t e f or th e m otion Sir W. CLAY sa id t h oug h hi s own mo tion hado his sen lion. re f Friend the Member for Dumfries if he pressed it. He thought, however, after what the Government had stated, it would be best to withdraw it for the present. Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if pressed, only he agreed with the last Member who spoke, that it would be better not to press it. After a few words from Lord HARRY VANE, Mr. EWART said, after the general expression of opinion by the House, he would consent to withdraw the motion. The motion was then withdrawn. Sir G. CLERK said t h a t h e h a d heard with regret that th e Noble Lord had no i n t en ti on to apply any of the grant to the sN i v ) o a a : s o i, t e t h oh parochial schoo l m asters h s a c tl I rt i e o oa o (b l i m ey taaislnteerrt efficient w o a f s a Ipe Scotland.provision, iprovision. son o The r ro raised Now, to he o s tn i g aysi. : ei e r d ief that were so, there ought to be some allowance out of the grant. The Noble Lord said that he could not a gree to give an y part o ( of this gran t to t h e schoolmasters of Scotland, as 0 11 ie grant was intended t o b e only in aid of voluntar ground w as i t, t h at, after a sufficient se) eff, r . viee ut F on sln a s t were to be d en i e d to the parochial schoolmasters ? Yet i t ao peered that the parochial schools were to be subject to the supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore there was no reason whatever to deny them the advantage of these re tiring pensions. The principle of the retiring pension in no way interfered with this matter, for the schoolmasters were to be enabled to receive pupils, which, by the grant, they were au thorise] to receive; and he trusted, therefore, that in framing the minutes, fg su...c.ent attentiQp wqmid be paid to this partici' . lir point. Mr. HUME trusted that the House would never g ive i sanction to the motion of the Hon. Member. At the pi ese moment the Scottish schools derived their subsistence from t land of the neighbourhood, and it. was entirely o wing to that sy tern that the people in Scotland were not in so educated a state as they were forty years ago. He trusted that this system would s ill be followed out; for he believed that it would be eminently advisable to follow out that plan ; for he deemed it unfair, that the money of the Exchequer should be sent to Scotland when there was already such sufficient means in exis , tence. Mr. FORBES MACKENZIE thought, if the money was to be paid, that Scotland was as much entitled to a portion of the grant as any other district. Mr. HOPE attached more impr.rtance to the measure ofthe sa!aries of the schoolmasters than to the reception of the teacher pupils. . • Lord JOHN RUSSELL interposed to say that he had as yet been unable to express any mature opinion, but he trusted shortly to do so ; and certainly it would be a matter that would engage his most serious at tention.—(Cheers)—and a minute would shortly be framed. The motion was then withdrawn without a division. RAILWAYS, PIERS, AB D HARBOURS (IREL AND) ILL. On the motion being read fur this Bill going into Committee Mr. HUME wished to know whether the Government was prepared with any specific statement as to what they in tended to do? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that they were. The House then went into Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that in this Committee his object was to grant a sum not more than 6 . )0,00/. The capital of the Great Southern and Western Ireland Railway Company was 2,600,000/., of which the paid up capital was 1,400,01)01. They had a power to raise 500 RV. by way of loan, and he was ready to advance another 509 000'. at five per cent. in six instalments ; and he believed that most of the money would he advanced be fore the winter. The next railway which he proposed to assist was the Waterford and Kilkenny Railway. The capital was 250,000'., of which the paid up capital was 125,0001., and to that company he proposed to lend the sum of 1 1 3 0001. The next company was that of the Dublin and Drogheda Company, the carital for which was 153,0001., with a power to raise 100,000! more, and to that company he proposed to lend 36,0001., the whole of the rest of the capital to be raised by calls.—(Cheers from both sides.) Thus he did not propose to lend more than 620,0001., which was to bear an interest of five per cent., secured upon the whole of the works. While making this statement he had de greatest pleasure in informing the House that the expellee of the public works had been greatly reduced. Daring the last six weeks it had been reduced from • 1,000,000/. a month to 600,0001., thus making a reduction of more than 400,0001. By the reports for March, the sum paid in wages was 245,0001., while during the next month up to the 24th of April the sum expended was only 125,0001., showing a reduction of more than one half. This would unquestionably be a great relief not only to the companies, but to the landowners. Mr. HUME thought that great care ought to be taken in granting supplies for such an object as this, and be believed that Ministers must surely have forgotten what had passed on a late occasion. At that time, when the Bank had upwards of 15,000,000/. of specie in their coffers, and had been granting discounts at three-and-a-half per cent. they had refused their assent to such a measure as this, but now, when the amount in the company's hand was reduced to 7,000,000/. Several Members—No, no, 9.000,0001. Mr. HUME—WeII he supposed that it was 7,000,0001., but if 9,000,000/. the case was still the same. What was the situation of railways in this country or aerosss the Channel ? Could they borrow at five per cent. ? Could they borrow at six per cent. ?—( Mr. Hudson, " Yes.")—He was glad to hear it ; certainly his information had been different.—(Hear.) He understood that to.day the Exchequer-bills could hardly be diicounted. Were these the times when the Government should propose to make large advances for works in Ireland which would not benefit the people ? He thought not, and he hoped the hour of the night was such that Mr. Greene would report progress and ask leave to sit again. He moved to that effect. Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the motion of the Hon. Member. Mr. GOULBURN was of opinion that the Hon. Gentle man's motion ought to be acceded to. Mr. B. OSBORNE said he felt he was taken by surprise by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer. He was surprised, too, that before so many Irish representatives, there should have been no one to speak upon the vote but himself. Had he not taken it up, the vote would have passed sub silentio. He specially repudiated the bestowment of the money as a boon. He expected that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have proposed a sufficient sum to be laid out in a remunerative manner. He would not say the sixteen millions, for he thought the Noble Lord (G. Bentinck) was wrong in that; but he wished the Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed something other than 600,000/., which could do little more than help such as perhaps the Great South-Western Railway. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saw that there was likely to be an Irish debate, and he would accede to the Hon. Member's motion, unless they would consent to an adjourned debate. Mr. ROEBUCK could not consent to any step which would commit him to a principle which he repudiated. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said he had no objection to the Right Hon. Gentleman proceeding with the Bill, but there was "more joy ever one sinner that repenteth"—(Laughter). He was glad to see that the Right Hon. Gentleman had at length come to see the propriety of laying out the Government moneyl on reproductive works. He was wrong in supposing that his (Lord G. Bentinck's) plan was an indiscriminate system of loan. But that was a fault which he thought cer tainly applied to the scheme of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained that his plan was to lend only in case of one half of the capital being paid up. And in the particular case alluded to 1,400,000/. had been paid up out of a capital of 2,600,000/. Lord G. BENTINCK said his plan distinctly was not indis. criminate, for he proposed lending to those companies only where one. third h. d been paid up of the capital. He found now that his calctlations had been too low. He would ask what was the state of the money market now ? Wer! not Exchequer-Bills at 4s. discount, and would it not be necessary for the Right lion. Gentleman to raise the interest on them.—( Hear, hear.) All he ( Lord G. Bentinck) wanted was to raise 4,000,000/. every year for four years. and if his proposition had been assented to three months ago the large expenditure now made on unproductive works in Ireland would have been saved. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would give them some information on the money market, and on the state of trade. He wished to know what would be the effect of the large export of gold that would be still required. He wished to know was it railway legislation that raised the dis count en good bills to 7 and 8 per cent., and that reduced Exchequer bills to 4s per cent discount ?" He asked whether it was the intention of Government to allow things to proceed on this downright course till the country could ne longer bear it, or whether it was the intention to make some relaxation of the rules relative to the currency, by which, after the issue of fourteen millions of bank notes, the Bank of England was restricted from isuing any further amount, unless it had gold in its coffers to meet the issue. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Noble Lord had touched upon a subject which it would be most inconvenient, at a minute's notice, to discuss, especially at that time of the night ; he would, however, in answer to the Noble Lerd, say that he, with 'others who took so low and de sponding a: view of the state of things, took an erroneous view of the circumstances bf the case. The fact was that the Bank had not restricted its circulation in the least degree ; and with respect to the injurious effects of the Bank Bill upon that estab lishment, he would also say that that measure had not as yet come into full operation, and he was not, therefore, prepared to say that any course would be adoptec by her Majesty's Go vernment with respect to the Bank of England. Now, how did the account actually stand? On the 29th of August the amount of bullion in the Bank was 16,366,000/. The circulation at that time amounted to 20,426,000!. On the 17th day of April last (the last day up to which the returns had been made), the bullion in the Bank amounted to 9,329,000!., showing a decrease of 7,037,000/. What, how ever, had been the reduction in the circulation ? It would have been expected that there would have been a diminution to some thing like that amount. But instead of that, it appeared that the circulation was 20,242,0001., thus showing a decrease of only 184,000!. Let the House take the facts as they find them, and do not let Hon. Members endeavour to increase an alarm which unhappily exists by an exaggeration of the evils. Then, again, with respect to the pressure upon the public, if the Hon. Members would look to the returns, they would find an enor mous increase in the " private securities " of the Bank, which every person, acquainted with the subject, knew amounted to an increase of accommodation to the public. It had also been very generally reported that a great pressure had been made by Government requiring assistance fr•m the Bank. Now, by referring to the same dates, Hon. Members would see that on the 29th of August the Government securities held in the banking department of the Bank of England amounted to 12,961,0001., private securities 12,395,000/. On the 17th of April the Government securities had fallen to 11,677,0001., showing a diminution of 1,284,0001.; the private securities on the same day amounted to 17,111,0001., showing an increase over the amount held by the Bank on the 29th of August of no less a sum than 4,716,0001., and on the 3d of April the private securities in the Bank amounted to 18,627,000/., thus clearly showing an increased accommodation given to the public of a sum of no less than between 5,000,000/. and 6,000,C00". ' while the G overnment securities hav e b een di m i n i shed by at least 1,000,000/. The Government Securities in the Bank had net been reduced by the present year, as compared with last 284,0001. The follow ing was a statement of the Government Securities held by the Bank in the present sear t—On the 2d of Jan., 12,824,000/. ; on the 9th of April, 12,757,000/. ; on the 16th, 12,757,000/. Compare that with the three corresponding weeks in April, the Securities were—on 3d April, 11,900,0001.; oA the 10th, 13,534,0001. ; and on the 17th ; 11,677.000/. In 1846, on the 4th April, the Securities held were 13,136,0001. ; on the 11th, 14,437,0001. ; and the 18th, 13,967,0001. ; so that, contrasting corresponding periods, the difference of the Government securities was only in the greatest difference 1,584,000/., and in the least 284,000/. This would show that the Government had not acted in the manner described by the Noble Lord (the Memberforiynn). What he rose principally to state was that his Noble Friend opposite was quite incorrect in asserting that there had been any diminution in the circulation of the Bank of Engl - id, or that there had been any diminution in the system on which they carried on their private trade, by the Government pressing on them for any assistance. Such was net the case, and if the Bank had not grit a larger amount ef circulation than it had at _nowledge present, it did not arise from ay want of k or from the fault or negligen ce of the Government Havin said this much, he would conc l u d e his observations, trusting g that he had satisfactorily explained the ease to the House and the Noble Lord. Several members here rose for the purpose of addressing the House, and after some confusion Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was probable that he rose for precisely the same t obj which h a d i nduced many other Honourable Membe rsec to be an x i ous to a dd ress after the latter par the Hou se . He t must say that h e thought that Member f or of the speech of the Noble Lord the Lynntt was indispe nsa bl y necessary that the Chancellor of t he Exchequer, without the loss of a moment, should make the reply which. he just mask to the House. He must say, that he thought that the statement was remarkable for its clearness and its perspicuity, and although it might not be in all respects so satisfactory as they could desire, he bad no doubt that it would have its due effect in diminishing those ex aggerated alarms, which had arisen from a misapprehension. He had listened to that speech with the feelings which be had just expressed, but he thought it involved a mo*t important question. which it was too late to discuss then, and which, in the pre sent state of the monetary affairs of England, it became them carefully to consider, not what were the wants of Leland, but what was the condition of England? When they were Railed upon to borrow 650,0001.—f0r that was the proposition—to advance to the Irish railways after all the immense ad vances which the necessity of the case had compelled theirs to make to that country in the last few months—it was too portant a question for them to discuss. It was a question re quiring the most grave and serious consideratien of the House. and he hoped that the Chancellorlof the Exchequer would con /.sent that they s h ou ld now report progress add resume the con sideration of the subject at a future time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he was perfectly willing to accede to all that Ind Right Holi. Friend bad proposed. BILL. Captain PLUMBIDGE moved the second reading of the Westminster and Lambeth-bridge Bill. Sir ROBERT INGLIS said that he had a petition to present against the Bill from his Grace the Arch bishop of Canterbury. The SPEAKER said, that the second reading of the Bill having been moved, the Hon. Baronet could not pre sent the petition. Sir R. INGLIS then moved that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. He was in hopes that the Honourable and Gallant Member who had moved the second reading of the Bill would have stated the gro un d s on which he made that motion. The Bill purported to be a Bill to enable ore solitary individual to take, in a compulsory manner, a certain amount of property, and that, he thought, was a reason why the Bill should riot be read a second time. As he un derstood it, the Bill proposed that the bridge should be a suspension-bridge. Now he could never give his con sent to the erection of such a bridge, because such abridge was perpetually in action, and always liable to accident. 11,,i deprecated the erection of a suspension-bridge in any case, but in the present one particu larly, as the land was low on each side, and the raising of it would greatly interfere with the pro perty of the Archbishop of Canterbury. Mr. LAW seconded the motion for the reading of the Bill that day six months. General EVANS supported the second rending of the Bill. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford had stated that the Bill was put forward by a single individual, Sir Samuel Brown; that might be true, but it was equally so that it was opposed only by one individual, and that individual was the Archbishop of Canterbury. He thought that the arguments that had been used by the Hon. Baronet for the second reading of the Bill were strongly calculated to induce the House to send it to a Committee up stairs. He could assure the House that there was no wish on the part of the promoters of the Bill at all to incommode the Archbishop of Canterbury. . . Dr. NICLIOLL said he believed that Sir Samuel Brown, one of the principal promoters of the scheme, was a partner in a large chain-cable manufactory at Newhridge, in Glamorganshire, and his chief object was, no doubt, to g;q rid of some of his chain cables. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when there appeared— _ For the second reading Against it Majority against the second reading NAVIGATION-LAWS. -15 Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS presented a petition, signed by six hundred of the merchants and principal inhabitants of Liverpool, against any alteration in the navigation-laws. _ _ _ Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented several petitions from the county Longford against the ea: officio and other clauses of the Poor-law (Ireland) Bills ; also several petitions from the same county, praying for a system of railways for Ireland, by loans ur advances of the public money. Mr. HLTDSON presented a petition from South Shields against any alzeration in the navigation laws. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK presented petitions from Kilmarnock, and other places in Scotland, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill. Also, petitions from various places in Ireland, in favour of a system of railways for that country. SCOTCH MARRIAGES BILL AND REGISTRA TION OF BIRTHS AND DEATHS BILL. Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from the in hal,itants of the Isle of Skyc, against these Bi1:s. Air. FORBES presented several similar petitions frc.m parishes in Scotland. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. Mr. MACKINNON presented a pAition from the guardians of the Richmond Union against the law of settlement. EDUC ATION. The Hos. GENTLEMAN also presente3 a petition from Lancashire in favour of the Government scheme. MARY YOUNG. Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition from Mary Young, of Finchatp, in Norfolk, complaining of the con duct of the cLmreitting magistrate towards her boy. The lion. Member said, that on the 9th of December, 184 G, the petitioner's husband seht his son, a boy of fifteen years of age, on a message to the superintendent of police. When the bay appeared there the superin tendent said, " That's the boy that stole the spoons nine months ago." The boy was con,equently charged be fore the magistrate, notwithstanding that the charge was distinctly repudiated ; and the magistrate, when the petitioners said that a witness, Small by name, in court, could prove that the boy was absent five miles from the place of the robbery at the time in questhin, would not hear Small upon his oath. l'he boy was therefore remanded to Swaffham gaol for nine days, and daring that period both the silversmiths to whom the spoons had been offer d for sale were confronted with him, when both positively said the boy was not the same pQrson. The boy was discharged ; but in consequence of the ill condition of the cell in which he had been confined for nine days he had been seized with inflammation in the hip joint, which would make him a cripple for life. The peti tioner's husband, in conseqm ace of his anxiety and the aposure to which he was subjected, had become ill, and died. The Hon. Member hoped that the statement of the case would receive the attention of the Secretary for the Home Department. Mr. HODGSON lIINDE presented a petition from the magistrate mentioned in the petition of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, praying the Ilouse to receive with caution the statement contained in the petition of slary Young, and denying the correctness of the asser tions made therein. Sir G. GREY said that with regard to the petition presented by the Hon. Gentl: man, the facts had not as yet been brought under his notice. When he received an official intimation of the facts he should be better able to judge what course should be pursued. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. HEALTH OF TOWNS. Sir G. GREY then presented a petition from the clergymen of Sheffield iu favour of the Heald' of Towns Bill. SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCE OF POOR- LAW OVER4:ERS. Mr. HODGSON presented apetition from the over seers and administrators of the poir-law, praying the House to adopt some means of giving a proper super annuation allowance to persons employed in that capa city. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department whether it was the intention of the Government to adopt any means for making these superannuation allovrancs in this session? Sir G. GREY said that he was not prepared at that moment to state the course the Government intended to pursue. Lord MORPETH presented a petition from the West Riding of Yorkshire against the Factories Bill ; and also seven petitions from the same place, six against and one in favour of the Government scheme of education. REGISTRATION OF MARRIAGES BILL. Sir ANDREW LEtru HAY said he wished to ask the Learned Lord-Advocate of Scotland, first, what was his intention with regard to the Registration of Mar riages (Scotland) Bill; and, secondly, whether he in tended to alter or omit the twelfth clause, and whether he proposed any, and what, alteration in the Bill? The LORD-ADVOCATE said, in answer to the question of his Honourable and Gallant Friend, he could state that it was his intention not to in sist upon the twelfth clause. The ground upon which the Bill was introduced bad been much misrepresented, but he should have another opportunity of explaining himself upon that subject. With reference to the various objections made to the Bill, he proposed to make many great amendments which he should not have hardly otherwise ventured upon. He believed that his Hon. Friend would not object to the course he intended to pursue, namely, that they should go into Committee pro forma, so as to enable him to send the Bill down to Scotland in time for the public meetings which were shortly to be held in different parts of the country. Mr. HUME hoped that the alterations which were to be introduced in the Bill would be at the same time made clear to the persAls interested in it. Mr. RUTHERFORD intended to do so. After a few words from Sir R. H. INGLIS, Mr. RUTHERFORD said that time had been given to enable the people of Scotland to express the objec tions they might entertain against parts of this measure. Sir G. CLERIC would not object to go into Com mittee pro forma, but he reserved to himself the right of giving such opposition as he might see proper in the after stages. AGRICUL FURAL STATISTICS DILL. Mr. FOR3ES wished to know, because he thought that the previous answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman was misrepre;Pntel by the organ, through which the public derived their intorination, whether the expense of collecting the rates was to be paid out of the Consoli dated Fund, or from what other source it must be de rived, and whether, if farmers refused to he amenable to the requisitions of the Bill. they would be proceeded against by fine, or otherwise ? Mr. GIBSON said, that on a Bill not before the House it would be some shat inconsistent to go into the details of the measure; but he could ~sure the lion. Member that the whole Bill would shortly be laid More the House. LORD DALHOUSIE'S ACT. Mr. NEWDEATE wished to know from the Secre tary of the Board of Trade whether it was the intention of the Government to amend, in this session, the Act commonly called Lord Dalhousie's Act? ➢ir. GIBSON thought that the qm-stion would better be answered by his Right Hon. Friend the Chief Com missioner of the Railway Board. COUNTY COURTS. Mr. BOUVERIE called the attention of the Right lion. Gentleman the Attorney-General to 50100 recent decisions in the Elaity Courts. Two judges had in cases decided that the plaintiffs could not be examin , d in support of their claims against the defendants. This, as far as he understood the Act, was not the construc tion which ought to be put upon it, and he wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to give his opinion on the matter. The ATTORNEY -GENERAL said, that under the circumstances he did not think his opinion would be worth anything. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the clause, which was to the elfect that the plaintiff or his wife, in any suit, might be examined on behalf of the defendants. Mr. OSBORNE wished to know what was intended to be done that night in regard to Irish railroads. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, after the report of the Committee of Supply on the Bill of Friday was agreed to they would then proceed to the proposition fur malting advances to Irish railways. He was desirous of taking the decision of the House on '.he question, in order that advances might be made on 'rich railways. EMIGRATION TO THE UNITED STATES. Lord G. BENTINCIC wished to ask a question of which he had given a notice a fortnight ago, respect ing emigration. He understood that the measures he then alluded to had passed into a law both in the states of New York and Massachusetts. In the state of New York it was provided that each captain of a ship who brought emigrants should give a bond for 300 dollars that they would not be chargeable on the state, and the state of Massachusetts 10,000 dollars for ten years. He would ask the Noble Lord fur any information he had on the subject. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he had not heard of the passing of the Bill to which the Noble Lord had referred ; but he knew that such a Bill was under the consideration of the New York and Massachussetts Governments, and the effect of it would be to require security from shipowners having vessels freighted for either New York or Boston, that any pauper passengers slmuld not be lt ft destitute and chargeable to the Government. SERVICE OF HEIRS (SCOTLAND) BILL. CROWN CHARTERS (SCOTLAND) BILL. Both these Bills went through Committee pro fbrrna, and the reports were brought up and received. EDUCATION. Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in moving the order of the day for receiving the report on the educational grant, said he wished to explain a matter personal to himself, and an Honourable Friend of his in that House on a former night. His Hon. Friend the Member for Car lisle stated the other evening, that on the 14th or 15th of this month an application was made on the part of the Catholic bishop. to have an interview with him on the subject of the educational plan, before its introduc tion into that House, but he declined to grant it. —(Hear, hear.) Now he begged leave to 'state that he should be very sorry to be supposed to have been guilty of any want of courtesy towards the Catholic bishops, and he therefi)re begged to state what really did occur on the 9th. On that day, just after attending the Cabinet Council, and as he was on the point of going a few miles out of town to spend the Sunday, carrying with him a large bundle of pamphlets on education, he received the letter of Bishop Griffiths, read by his Honourable Friend. Certainly he under stood that letter to allude to the subject of the edu cation of the children of poor Catholics, but as he had to bring forward the plan on the Monday following. and there was no time for him to give the interview, or to make any alteration in the minutes that had then been agreed to, he wrote the reply wkich his Honourable Friend read on Friday. Having stated thus much with regard to a matter entirely of a personal nature, he begged leave to say, in moving the order of the day for the reception of the report, that he hoped it would be fully understood that there was no in tention whatever on the part of Government to exclude Catholics from the benefit of this grant ; but fresh minutes would have to be pro posed upon that subject before the question could be brought before the House i❑ a formal manner. Thi3 would make provision for all persons in holy orders, not only regular clergymen but also Dissent ing clergymen. But he understood that in the Romish Church — there were persons in orders, although they were not in holy orders, but who were engaged in the business of education. It was readily understood that these minutes did not cont:qtt plate any provision for them, but he quite agreed that the Romish Church should net be excluded.— (Hear, hear.) But whether there would be any imme diate opportunity to frame minutes he could not say, but avery attention would be paid to the subject, and minutes should be made, and a different measure would be brought in to grant allowance for the purposes of edueati.n to Elia members of the Romish Church. Sir G. CLERK wished to know whether, in the con sideration of the subject, any regard had been had to the position of the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland. He wished, therefore, in the first place, to ask the Nobl e Lord whether th ose schoolmasters were to participate di rectly in the present grant, and whether they were to be entitled to receive pupil teachers into their schools; secondly, whether their salary was to be increased; and, thirdly, whether the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland were to he entitled to any retiring allowance after a cer tain period of service 2 Lord J. I:USSELL said that as this subject had not yet been submitted to the consideration of the Committee of the Privy Council, the answer that he might give would only express hi s own op i n i ons. The grant now under the consideration of the House did not contemplate giving any aid except in cases of voluntary effort, so that the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland would not in any way participate in the present grant, but their relief would better constitute a part of a future measure. WASTE LANDS IN IRELAND. Mr. FIUME observed that it was proposed by Government to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to apply for a sum for the improvement of waste lands in Ireland. Ile trusted that the measure would be brought on in time to allow of the discussion of the important principles involved in it. Lord JOIIN RUSSELL had no objection to bring it for ward early in the evening. The order of the day for bringing up the report was then read. Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTII, in bringing forward his motion, " That any measures of the Committee of the Privy Council on Education, or other regu!ations, which exclude Roman Catholics from participating in any grant of public money for purposes of education, by requiring in all schools which receive such grants of public money the We of the au thorisud version of the Scriptures, are inexpedient anti ought to be rescinded," said that he had a petition from above 3,000 Roman Catholic schoolmasters in Manchester, complaining of the operation of the Bill, and its exclusion of themselves' from the advantages given to the other religious persuasions of the country. The simple object of his motion was to malt, the measure of the Government—which many thought a partial one—one to enable the Government to impart some of the public aid to the Roman Catholics. It might be said, however, that the Roman Catholics did not need external aid, fur they had never made education an object of their consideration. But he was certain that they stood more in need of aid than any other sec tion of the population. He asked the House to consider what accommodation the Roman Catholic population in the manu facturing districts possessed. He bad received papers from Manchester, "which fully confirmed the statements made in the House the other night by an Hon. Member. The lion. Gen tleman proceeded to read documents at some length. in Liverpool there was at least 20,000 children of Roman Ca tholtes, a great proportion of whom were not receiving edu• cation. In Middleton there were 6,000 Roman Catholics in •••• • l• the same position. Bolton, Stockport, and the metropolis were in the same position, London alone contained from 150,000 to 200,000 Roman Catholics. In the east district of London there were 20,000 Roman Catholics ' with 2,000 children, and only 800 were receiving education. In Finsbury there were 30,000 Catholics, of whom but 500 children were being edu cated out of 2,000. In Marylebone only 800 children of the Roman Catholics were receiving education out of 3,000, be longing to a population of 30,000. In Chelsea but 200 chil- dreii o'iit of 1,060 were being educated. In the Borough which he represented, Southwark, there were 40,000 Catholics, with 4,000 children, and only 100 were receiving any education. In Lambeth the number of Catholic children was 1000,of which but 150 were receiving education. Great Britain had been esti mated to contain 1,500,000 Roman Catholics,though 800,000 he thought nearer the number, and out of 65,000 children belonging to them, not more than 30,000 were edu cated ; leaving 35,000 without any education at all. It had been stated that no application had been made for assist ance by Roman Catholics ; but this was an error, for last summer an application was made by the Hon. Mr. Langton, to the Council, tor a grant in aid of certain schools, in a very poor district in the neighbourhood of Landport, which was not favourably entertained. In the reply, it was stated that the minutes to be adopted required the daily reading of the Scrip tures. But then this involved the reading of the whole of the Bible. This wss the injurious system of the Government, and only the other day a meeting was held, at which three of the most respectable Roman Catholic Bishops were present, and where the Earl of: Shrewsbury presided, a resolution was unanimously passed condemning the scheme of the Govern ment. lie must say that it was his belief that the Roman Catholics had been sacrificed in order to still the opposition of the Dissenters. After the speeches of the Noble Lord the Member for West Yorkshire ( Lord Morpeth), the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel ), and the Noble . Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell), he must express his disappointment. Even had the Roman Catholics neither asked aor required assist ance, they were fully entitled to a benefit from the State, and no difference ought to have been made in this country between Catholics and Protestants, especially as Catholicism and Protestantism had ceased to be the representatives of despotism and Protestantism. No more than he could understand the feelings of the slave owner in the southern estates of America, whose life and property depended upon the education of his slave, and yet it was refused, did he understand the principles of the state, who after admitting Roman Catholics to the functions of the Legislature in both that and the other House of Parliament, and to those of the highest offices under Government, refused to grant to them the minor rights to which they were entitled. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, described this as a system of perfect impartiality, and he appealed to future ages, :r- c t o esdi at 3 'OO ot° oulti, , atou tbaC ,ort wo __of ,rty Ayr) , hilt , irre had ere ons 1 it ble