The Sun. — London, England, 1853-03-08 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. BOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) NATIONAL EDUCATION IN IRELAND. The Earl of CLANCARTY rose to call the attention of the house to the operation of the national system of education in Ireland. The noble earl (who was very indistinctly heard) said that the national system of edu cation had now been 21 years in operation in Ireland, And when first established it was an experiment with respect to which very great expectations were held out, and it h a d certa i n l y rece i ved no ordinary support both from Government and through the liberality of Parlia zaent. The returns which he intended to move for, and - which he rejoiced to find were not to be opposed, ought to be laid upon their lordships' table, in order to enable them to form an accurate opinion, from official evidence, as to the actual working of the system, and its alleged great success in the attainment of the object of its origi alai institution, viz., the education of the Irish people, founded upon religion ; the union of Roman Catholic and Protestant children in the same schools, and also the union of Roman Catholic and Protestant clergy, as the patrons and managers of the schools, in the same Parishes ; and the general concurrence of the people of Ireland in the carrying out of the system by the amount of their local contributions. Now, he was sure that the :returns would bear him out in saying that the system had failed in all those particulars ; but should it be Otherwise, there would at least be great advan tage in having the official information in support of its alleged success produced. And here he must com plain, that the annual reports of the commissioners were presented to Parliament at too late a period to be of any use. The report for 1851 was only communicated to their lordships on the 15th of February, 1853, a date which must altogether defeat the object of its being pre sented to Parliament at all, namely, to enable Parlia- Inent to judge of the efficiency of the system when it was voting the public money from which that system was to be supported. With respect to the working of the system the opinions were various. It had been zealously supported by every successive Government since it had been instituted, and statesmen had had a prejudice in its favour, not wishing to shake its prestige, and perhaps unconsciously overlooking some of its defects. The com missioners, too, in their reports had certainly represented the working of the system as very favourable, and the visits of Lord Lieutenants to the model schools in Dublin, and the accounts which vrere always given to the World of these admirably-managed institutions, all tended to prepossess the public mind in favour of the system. A, gentleman who was recently staying on a visit at Unair Castle, however, visited one of the rural schools, and looked at some of the writing that was execlited by the scholars. Bearing in mind that one of th.a good results that was anticipated from these institu iions was the spread of loyalty and good feeling towards •Xngland, what was the gentleman's surprise, when, upon -opening the first copy-book, he found that it was headed " Hurrah for Repeal !" Another was headed " St. Patrick was a gentleman." (Laughter.) He (Lord Clan- Carty) certainly believed that St. Patrick was a gentleman ----and a Protestant, too. But to return to the causes which had excited a prejudice in favour of these schools. One justifiable ground was the admirable elementary Works that were used in them. But there were many Who thought that the system had failed to effect that i ntellectual and moral improvement of the people which had been regarded as one of its legitimate results. The commissioners themselves, however, took a different view, and in their report for 1851 they declared that they were convinced that the system had deep root in the affections of the people, and that no other plan of i nstruction for the people could have been devised which, under the peculiar circumstances of Ireland, would have —conferred such inestimable blessings upon the great ma jority of the population. The commissioners further stated, that in 1851 the schools were 4,704 in number, and the !pupils 520,401 ; showing an increase of 157 echools and of 9,162 pupils over 1850. Further on, th ey stated that they had made grants to other schools, a uld they summed up by saying that there was reason for believing that the total number of pupils benefited i hY th e system was 529,637. This was certainly a very Striking picture of progress in education, but he took l eave to question the accuracy of these figures, and he did so for this reason. In their second report, at the o utset of their labours, the commissioners calculated the n umber of children between the ages of seven and thir teen for whom they would ultimately have to provide * duration. The total number of children between those ages in Ireland they estimated at about one-seventh of the population, and they calculated that about one-half of that number would require to be instructed in their schools. Now, the census of Ireland just issued showed that the population had diminished very considerably Since that time. In 1851 it amounted to 6,500,000, and t he emigration that had gone on so rapidly since then had further reduced it to 6,300,000. Now, out of that total amount of population, one-half of the children be tween seven and thirteen years of age, would only give :50,000 ; so that it would be seen that by taking credit 'or having 530,000 scholars in their schools in 1851, the ' c ommissioners had actually exceeded their own maxi mum by 80,000. But this was not all. The Church tincation Society had 100,000 children in their schools ; and adding 50,000 more for the other schools uncon teeted with the National Board—a very moderate com putation—this, added to th e 530,000, gave a t o t a l o f 6_80,00 childr en , l eav i ng but 220,000 to include all the children of that age belongi ng to the upper and middle classes, all the children of the thirty-five union houses, and all the poor child ren who did not go to school atall. He thought, therefore, that there was some reason to doubt the accuracy of these figures. Now, he found that the total amount of local aid contributed to 178 schools out of the entire number of the national schools, was only 1931., or at the rate of 4,593 to the entire slumber of schools in operation, whereas the subscrip tions in aid of the Chu rch Education Society amounted to 40,7041., and he could not be far wrong if he were to say that 60 , 0001. more were raised by local subscrip tions in aid of the Irish Church missions, the Irish So ciety, the Wesleyan and Presbyterian missions, and the schools maintained at the expense of the Roman Catho lic clergy, independent of the National Board. The comparison was, therefore, decidedly against the national system, and in favour of such systems as enabled patrons to give religious instruction to the children who attended the schools. He should be most happy if he co uld point out any results beneficial to the country from the system which had been acted upon, but was un able to do so. A. system which pretended to be re ligious ought to manifest itself in an improvement of the moral and religious character of the people, in the production of those habits of industry and order and economy which were the distinguishing characteristics of civilised nations. He, however had witnessed no such results. Before this system was called into existence the inhabitants of the north of Ireland were as provident an d industrious as they were at the present mo ment. T he views which he entertained were strengthened by the statistics of the census of 1841: Although in the province of Munster the proportion of children attend ing the national schools was as 1 to 11, and in Ulster as 1 to 15, yet the predominance of ignorance in -Munster as compared with that in Ulster was as 46 to 86 - He would take a later period, and compare two towns with poor-law unions—the towns possessing great sutural advantages, and the population of the unions b eing nearly the same in extent. He found that in Lime rick there were 5,512 pupils in national schools, and in 13elfast the number was 4,774, the proportion being 1 to 20 in Li mer i c k, an d 1t 0 27 i n B e lf as t . N ow , i n the Limerick union the number of persons receiving relief was 17,551 against 6,671 in the Belfast union. The Proportion receiving relief was 1 to 8 in Limerick, and ItolB in Belfast. Taking Ireland generally crime had Increased and not diminished ; for in 1841 the number of committals was 20,796, whilst in 1851, the popula tion having diminished nearly 1,500,000, the number of committals was 24,654. He trusted, after what he had stated, that their lordships would not consider him un reasonable in entreating their prompt attention to this subject. The noble earl concluded by moving for a copy 01' the ret urns f urn i s h e d by th e C o mmissioners of Na tional Education in Ireland to his excellency the Earl of -c,glinton, when lord-lieutenant, Of the number of children attending each of the national schools in Ireland, and of the religious denominations to which they be -lang," as referred to in the 14th page of the eighteenth r eport of the Commissioners of National Education la Ireland. List of the vested schools, stating-1, parish in which situated ; 2, date of connexion " 4 h board ; 3, name and religion of teacher ' • 4, a mount of salary from board ; 5, amount of local aid en towards teacher's salary in the way of subscrip tions during the year referred to in 18th report ; 6, a mount of school fees paid during same period; 7, whether there is a residence provided for the teacher ; 8, name and religion of patron ; 9, num ber of children on the roll (4 each such school ; distinguishing the number of the ' es tablished Church, of Presbyterians, of Protestant Dis t:enters, and of Roman Catholics ; 10, whether the Scrip ‘Ore lessons were habitually used during the hours of united instruction for the same period. Similar returns cr especting the non-vested schools. Return from the clerk of this house of the respective dates at which each of the annual reports of the Commissioners of Natio nal thi s i n Ireland have been laid upon the table of "is house, and of the dates at which they have been urespectively distributed to the members of this house. 'rho Earl of ABERDEEN (who spoke very inaudibly) said he wished to make a few observations in reply to the speech of the noble earl who had introduced the sub )!'et to their lordships. The noble earl had stated, first, that this system of national education had entirely failed that it was vicious in its conception, and had entirely failed i n its results. Now, he was quite ready to admit that it had not succeeded so extensively as it was Z it 9 e u . eted t o d o w h en proposed by the noble earl oppo - Coe, But if i ts success had not equalled the expecta,- then tt entertained, to what was th e f a il ure t o be 4. 4 _qhuted ? (H ear, he ar.) Was it not to be attributed ;42 the noble earl and his friends ? (Hear, hear.) He :7!_me,ented to find that a large proportion of the clergy of ii4-riaend had from the first opposed the operation of this linro• (Hear, hear.) Wherever it had been supported followed clergy it had been successful, and if they had but !red the example of that most learned, zealous, and ti`su_lghtened prelate who had so long been at the h ea d of b7_ Na tional B oard, the success of the system would have bee"tla !?ininensurate with its extent. (Hear.) But it had th e • "le misfortune of Ireland that the attempts made for Improvement of that country had been almost always relie'lhverte d to the purposes of sectarian difference, whether dirt or or political. (Hear.) It certainly was the 0 „ 1 ,•? o : every public man to view with forbearance the saw of those who were hostile to him ; but when he cha_leln noble system so obstinately opposed, and the f or s, the best chance, and perhaps the only chance wantonlytrmant improvement of Ireland rejected and thrown away, he confessed that he had some difficulty in repressing his feelings of indignation. (Hear.) Although he believed the system would have been more successful had it been supported as it ought to have been, he denied that it had failed in the manner described by the noble earl. The noble earl had very cavalierly set aside the reports of the commissioners, stating that he could place no tr ust or confidence in them, they having been signed by the secretary, and not by the commissioners. Now he (Lord Aberdeen) relied with perfect confidence on those returns, believing that the commissioners had. most anxiously discharged their duty, and that the returns were perfectly accurate. (Hear.) It appeared that from the commencement of the system up to the end of 1851, the increase had been constantly progressive, with the exception of the years 1847 and 1849, for reasons which were explained in the report. In the last year the increase in the number of schools was 157, and of scholars upwards of 9,000. The whole number of schools at the end of 1851 was 4,811, and the total number of pupils 529,000. (Hear, hear.) The main object, he apprehended, in the establish ment of these schools had been non-interference with the religious tenets of the children. It was a system of joint secular education, but separate religious instruction. That great object had been perfectly at tained, and he believed that since the very commence ment there had not been a single instance of proselytism in any quarter. The noble earl appeared to object to the omission of Scripture lessons of Scripture extracts. But he believed that Scripture lessons were most strongly ob jected to by the noble earl and his friends. It was said that it was a mutilation of the Word of Life—that free access to the Scriptures was the fundamental principle of Protestantism, and now the noble earl complained that the extracts were no longer used. But they were not proscribed. The use of them were encouraged in the vested schools, and recommended there. The noble earl wished for separate grants to each education society, and to all schools without distinction. But was he prepared to admit that the Roman Catholic population should re ceive their full portion of the public money for their schools, or was he not ? If so, the noble earl spoke the language of the most liberal of the Roman Catholic party. They would most cordially support the noble earl in his proposal, and he believed that some of the most distinguished prelates warmly advocated that course. Now,' what would be the effect of such a proposal ? A grant could not be refused to the Roman Catholics in the same proportion as to others, whatever that proportion might be. Whether the proportion might be five to one, or any other number, proportionate grants must be made ; and if so, Parliament and the Government would recog nise that system of separation which, as he had already said, must lead to that sectarian spirit which' was the bane of Ireland. (Hear.) He did not profess to possess an accurate knowledge of the details of the working of the system. It might in some respects be susceptible cf improvement, rules might be modified and made more clear, and additional regulations might be introduced. That possibly might be the case. But he did think it would be the greatest misfortune for Ireland if this system of education should be put an end to. (Hear.) He believed the noble earl (the late Lord-Lieutenant) had made inquiries into the working of the system, and if he recollected rightly the noble earl then at the head of the Government declared at the beginning of the ses sion that he had looked into the subject, and although he might contemplate some alterations and improve• ments, it was not his intention to make any suggestions to Parliament on the subject. (Hear, hear.) He thought such testimony as that ought to weigh with their lord ships. (Hear, hear.) He should be sorry to reject any practical improvement in the regulations by which the system was administered, but he trusted their lordships would preserve the principle of the system (hear) ; and he did hope, notwithsta ndin g the opposition of a arge portion of the clergy (which opposition he hoped and believed was diminishing), that the system introduced by the noble earl opposite would prove a blessing to Ire land, and that it would be attended with the happiest results. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of EGLINTON thought the subject well worthy of their lordships' consideration, involving as it did the education of several hundred thousands of chil dren. (Hear, hear.) The Earl of CLARENDON observed that his noble friend, in saying that it was unjust and unfair to select only those persons for preferment by the Crown who were favourable to the national system of education, had only repeated that which had been constantly said in Ireland. It had even been stated in Dublin that clergy men were tortured, so to speak, into the declaration of their opinions with respect to the national system ; and he was glad that his noble friend had alluded to the sub ject, because it gave him an opportunity of meeting the statement with a distinct and unqualified denial. (Hear, hear.) He never, that he remembered, asked a clergy man his opinions on the subject in his life, because when he had to discharge the most sacred duty of selecting a fit person for Church preferment, he could assure their lordships that he previously instituted every inquiry within his power as to the piety, learning, habits, and an tecedents of the candidate ; and among those antecedents must be reckoned the course which he had taken with re spect to the momentous question of education. Ho fairly admitted that, cceteri.s paribus, he always gave preferment to the clergyman who agreed with him in the views which he entertained himself ;-and he should not have done his duty if he had placed a man in a position to thwart him in a policy which he conceived was advantageous to Ireland. If their lordships, however, were to form their judgment from what had been stated by his noble friend, they would suppose that the whole Church patronage of Ireland was vested in the Crown, whereas, the fact was, that where there was one case in which a clergyman looked to the Crown for prefernient, there were ten cases in which he looked somewhere else. He was very glad to hear his noble friend affirm that, though he went to Ireland preju diced against the system, yet, having exercised on that, as on every other subject, his own excellent judgment and clear understanding, he had come to the conclusion that it was the best system that could be adopted in the country. He believed most fully that the clergy of the Established Church had foregone a great opportunity of doing good, and had omitted to perform a part of their most sacred duty by refusing to adopt the national system of education. They would attend no school, nor give any religious in struction, unless the doctrines taught were entirely in ac cordance with their own religious belief. To his mind this appeared a great mischief, because it would leave the poor in ignorance and all the concomitants of vice. They might as well refuse a morsel of bread to a starving man, or re fuse medical relief to a man attacked with the cholera, be cause he had not observed the same regimen. The late Bishop of Meath said last year that the clergyman of the parish was the minister by law established, and it was therefore his duty to attend the school which was esta blished by law ; and that though he might not like the law, yet, so long as it was the law, it was his duty to ad minister religious instruction to those who attended the school. He had heard with regret, but not with surprise, various other topics referred to by his noble friend, but he would not detain their lordships by dwelling upon them. He would only say that ho agreed with his noble friend in hoping that their lordships would not now sanction any change, or even hold out any hope of a change, which would injure the great cause of education among the poorer classes of the people of Ireland. After observations by several noble lords, The Earl of CLANCARTY replied. The motion was then agreed to, and their lordships ad journed at twenty minutes to ten. HOIJSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) (Continued from our Third Edition o-c last Evening.) DETENTION OF PASSENGERS AT DOVER. Mr. JAS. MACGREGOR begged to call the attention of the honourable gentleman opposite, the Secretary of the Treasury, to the delay that is at present experienced at Dover by persons travelling between this country and France. It happ ened that on various occasions the per sonsable to reach Londo tth were un travelling to London n fr a om P e a e r r i u s ly our they mightb the night mail e p d r e a v t e n D t e o ( v , e r f r o t o m h t a r a v e v g luggage exami ned, and r have done were the y by the not detained n notice on this subject, w hich he had give i the question of first train. It was not his intention now to press but he thought it w ould be well if the house were put in o tion of the presentover u possession of some data on which to form an opinion as to m the policy of introduci n g some dificaa • spstem of examining passengers' l gg g e between D and the metropolis. The number of passengers travelling n and London last year between England an d France was 172,600. Of that number 22 272 made the journey between L Paris by-night, leaving by the half-past s even train, and • packet. He accomplishing the distance in 12 hours•, 10,210 persons came from Paris to London by t he ni g ht the Fr ench Custom-house afforded to travelle rs should be woul suggest, in such a case, that the same facilities which extended by our Custom=house officers. Mr. WILSON—The question of which the honourable gentleman gave notice had reference exclusively to the night mail from Paris—departing from Paris at seven o'clock, and arriving in London at eight o'clock in the morning. It is but fair, in justice to the commissioners of customs, to say, that it is their desire to afford the greatest possible facility to passengers. One of the arrangements that has been made by them in reference to this particular question is, that their officers should remain up night, in order to examine the baggage at the station, prior to the departure of the London mails. lam further bound to say that it appears, on inquiry, that the arrival of the boats, especially in winter, is uncertain, an d th a t, on the departure of the mail trains, it frequently happens that passengers are left behind, and more frequently that their luggage is left behind. I have had a communication with the commissioners of customs on the matter, and, after consideration, they have made an arrangement to meet the difficTilty. It is proposed that officers of the c us t om -h ouse shall be in attendance at London-bridge station in order to meet the night train from Dover; but as it would fre quently happen that the boat would arrive in Dover long before the departure of the train, and passengers might co mplain that they had an hour to spend. in Dover need lessly, and were again detained in London, it was proposed,. while facilities were afforded in London, that they should not take away the facilities in Dover. If the passenger arrives in time, his luggage will be examined in Dover, and if the time does not suit, the examination will take place in London. (Hear, hear.) I hope the officers in Dover will receive instructions to telegraph on the departure of th e train, so that the authorities in London may be in formed w hether the examination has taken place in Dover or not, so that if it has taken place in Dover it will not be necessary to detain them in London. To enable the autho rities to take the names of aliens, it will be necessary that the ship list of passengers should be sent forward with the baggage. PILOTAGE. The house having gone into committee, Mr. CARDWELL said—ln rising to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law relating to pilotage, I must, with the permission of the committee, state what are tho views of the Government with respect to the mer cantile marine. In doing so it will be necessary for me to trespass to some extent on your time, for tho subject is one on which the complaints and demands of the shipping interest have been divided into numerous parts ; but I shall occupy as short a time as possible, and to trespass on no portion of your time by any needless observations or superfluous remarks. With regard to the present state and prosperity of the shipping interest, it cannot be neces sary to occupy your.time at all. It is well, known to the committee that if you test the present condition of the dipping interest by any a the tests which this house Can apply to it—if you look to the aggregate amount of Bri tish tonnage entered inwards and cleared outwards; or the amount of tonnage that is owned in the ports of the Bri tish empire, or the number of men that is employed in the' mercantile marine, or the activity that prevails in all the great ports where the building of ships is carried on—if you measure the question by any one of those tests, they present to yen but ono uniform result—a result of unex ampled prosperity. (Hear, hear.) Sir, it is no part of my province —and certainly I shall not trespass into that ground—to account for this prosperity. Perhaps the time has come when I might enter into those topics without any fear of reawakening ancient controversies ; but, irrespec tive of those controversies altogether, there are peculiar reasons which present themselves, and enter largely into the case;. but whatever they may be, I shall not run any risk of awakening controversies on an occasion on which I ammerely asking for permission to introduce a bill, and may anticipate that I will receive the concurrence of the committee. - (Hear, hear.) The committee are well ac quainted that, from the time of the peace to the time of Mr. Huskisson, instead of there being an increase in the number of ships owned by the subjects of this country, there was a positive diminution, and also a diminution iu the number of men employed. In 1815, the tonnage amounted to 2,681,000; in 1825 it had fallen to 2,533,000, and the men had fallen in the same proportion. From the time of Mr. Huskisson down to the present, there is scarcely an instance that does not continuously show the reverse ; and if wo compare the year that has just expired with the year 1849 we will find that, while the total amount of British tonnage inwards and outwards amounted in 1819 to 8,152,000 tons, it amounted in 1852 to no less than 8,727,000 tons. (Hear.) And if you take the number of ships built in 1849 you will find them amount to 121,000 tons, while in 1852 they had risen to 167,000 tons. (Hear, hoar.) But is it only in material prosperity that the shipping interest has been elevated? Hear, hear.) The community is indebted to the right honourable gentleman the member for Taunton for a mea sure of great importance, and which has tended to elevate the character of the mercantile marine. Ido not mean to say that the details of the measure may not .be susceptible of improvement ; that might naturally be expected when he had to deal, for the first time, with a question that in volved such complicated arrangements ; but I think if you look to the broad result, the house and the country have reason to be grateful to my right honourable friend for the policy which he has mainly inaugurated. (Hear, hear.) Let me ask you to look to the result of that important question—the examination of British piasters and mates. (Hear, hear.) It was painful to see, during the discussion on the navigation laws, the reflections that were made on that hard working body of our fellow-countrymen; but it appears that the total number of masters and mates that have obtained certificates of competence in two years, amounts to s,o69—(hear, hear)—and let me call your par ticular attention to this, that whereas my right honourable friend had provided in respect to those that had already served, that they should not be obliged to pass an exami nation td obtain a certificate of competency, their certifi cate of service entitling them to the same privileges as those who had passed an examination, yet so great is the value set in the mercantile marine on the circumstance of having passed the examination, that out of this total num ber of 5,059 who obtained certificates of competency, no less than 1,879 had already obtained certificates of service, and need not be subjected to examination. (Hear, hear.) There were to be found in the naval service, mon who were thus coming in voluntarily to pass an examination and to obtain certificates of competency, and this is a proof of the moral progress that is being made by our mercantile marine. (Hear.) The right hon. gentleman, as it appears to me, most judiciously put an end to that baneful system which went by the name of the Merchant Seamen Fund, from which in return for a compulsory tax they had a precarious provision for declining years, and also an insolvent fund ; and I am happy to say that by the new arrangement that which was a complicated process works most agreeably under the officers appointed to manage it. (Hear, hear.) There is now in progress a system for providing for the comforts of sailors in their declining years, and for ad ministering to their material as well their moral ne cessities. There has grown up a system called a system for the establishment of sailors' homes, having comfortable accommodation, a registration, savings banks, and all other appliances calculated to secure the comfort of the seaman and to elevate his character. (Hear, hear.) With the permission of the house I shall read a short extract from the report of the Sailors' Home, with which I happen myself to be more particularly acquainted, having known it from the time it was founded, in the year 1846, by Prince Albert, up to the present time. (Hear, hear.) I think the committee will listen with interest to a passage . from the report that describes its material progress. The following extract is taken from the report in reference to the Liverpool Sailors' Home : " All sea&en visiting this port have now not only the 'great advantages, hitherto presented to them under the temporary arrangements of theinstitution for the last seven years, of recording a good character, of depositing their money in safety, and of having it transmitted to any . quarter they uciaY desire ; but' they have now the oppor tunity afforded them of enjoying in this spacious and splendid establishment a degree of substantial comfort and security to which they have hitherto been strangers." Now, sir, I mention these things bacause in introducing this subject to the house it is right you should know what, is the present state, both material and moral, of the dif ferent branches of the service to which my measure refers. I have endeavoured to compress this within the shortest space that would allow me to give an 'accurate view of the subject to which I call attention. And now permit me to tell you what are the subjects which the Government have had under their consideration with regard to themercantile marine. (Hear, hear.) First, they haVe had under their consideration the question of lights ; secondly, the. question of passing tolls ; thirdly, the restrictions that' exist with respect to the manning of the mercantile marine • fourthly, the question of volunteering int o th e n a vy ; fifthly, sal vage ; sixthly, desertion ; seventhly, the fees to consuls ; and eighthly, the question of pilotage. (Hear, hear.) On every one of these it will be my duty to trouble the com mittee, but I shall do it as shortly as possible ; and first of all I ill enter upon that important subject of the lights. The complaint made by the mercantile marine is this, they say that under the system as it now exists in this country dues are compulsorily levied on the mercantile marine and disposed of by the independent action of a self-elected body, without being subject to the control of Parliament. That is a grievance of - which the mercantile marine complains. To the principle involved in that demand the Government strictly and without reserve subscribe, and I hope I shall satisfy you before I conclude that the object which the mercantile marine has in view will be efficiently and com pletely met. (Hear, hear.) Now let us bear in mind what is the history of this question. By the original law the erection of beacons and lights at sea was part of the royal prerogative, but so long ago as the Bth of Elizabeth the Trinity House was entitled to exercise that power. (Hear.) The mode in which they proceeded was this—when the mercantile marine desired to erect lights they memoralisecl the board of the Trinity House : they required them to advance their capital in erecting the light, and they agreed to contribute a certain toll as a remuneration for that out lay ; and the usual provision was, that the surplus revenue should be employed for the purpose for which in part the Trinity House was incorporated, namely, for the relief of distressed persons engaged in the mercantile marine service. (Hear, hear.) — The practice has continued from that day to the present time. With regard to the lights in Scotland and Ireland, they are placed by statutory provision under two bodies known as the Commissioners of Northern Lights and the Ballast Board of Dublin. (Hear, hear.) Now the question is, how have the powers possessed by them being exercised—have the lights of this country been effi cient, and have the powers been exercised for the purposes for which they were given ? In the year 1845 a committee was presided over by my hon. friend the member for Mon- trose, whose service; on this subject have been eminent, and that committees had the satisfaction of reporting ac cording to the evidence laid before them, that generally the lights on the coasts of England, under the ma nagement of the Trinity House—on the coasts of Scotland, under the management of the Northern Commissioners in Edinburgh—and the lights on the coasts of Irelind, under the management of the Ballast Board in Dublin, were all maintained in an efficient state. I beg to read the follow . ing passage from their report :—" Your committee has the satisfaction of reporting that, according to the evidence before them, the public general lights on the coasts of England, under the management of the Trinity House in London ; those on the coasts of Scotland, under the ma nagement of the Northern Commissioners in Edinburgh ; and the lights on the coast of Ireland, under the manage ment of the Ballast Board in Dublin, are all maintained in an efficient state. Among the witnesses, Captain Moore, who has been for 23 years in the trade between the United States of America and England, states that he considers the English lights, on the whole, better than those of the United States. Captain Washington, R.N., of the surveying department on the coast, says that ' ge nerally speaking tho lights, light vessels, buoys, and bea cons are efficient ; the lights brilliant, and the lighthouses clean, and in high order. Captain Denham, R.N., also a marine surveyor, and long employed on thc; coasts, bears the same testimony to tlie efficiency of the lights of the United Kingdom. On the 19th of February, 1844, the secretary to the Trinity House in London, in a letter to the secretary of the Ballast Board of Dublin, expresses the great satisfaction with which the Trinity House had received the report of their visiting committee, and of the efficient state of the lighting apparatus throughout Ire land.' And, on the 21st of February, 1844, the secretary to the Trinity House, in a letter to the secretary of the Commissioners of Northern Lights, states :—" I have it in command to request you will express to the commissioners the satisfaction of the elder brethren at being enabled to communicate that the lamps and entire apparatus were found to be in perfect and efficient order throughout the li g hthouses in that part of the United Kingdom. " Now, sir, those were the opinions which the committee thought it only due to those bodies to place emphatically on record. (Hear, bear.) But, sir, it is some time since 1845, and the committee will naturally ask, are you in possession of any evidence with regard to the present state of the lights of the'United Kingdom, and can you show from unimpeach able testimony the state they have been in down to a later and whose example or authority tee lwhethir, er allmai t n t s e t r i s t u o f material prosperity an d maritime supremacy, if we seek in maritime supre mac y , period. (Hear, h ear) ? Now, sir, who are our great rivals t d i o on w s o a a re pp in eal a when souna we an d desiree ffi ci en t t state for a rival amongst other nations, the palm will be assigned to our competitors in t he United States ; and certainly, in the committee of 1845, the comparison that ran through the. minds of its members was, as my hon. friend the member for Montrose will remember, a comparison chiefly between Great Britain and the United States. (Hoar.) In the year 1851, a board of inquiry was ordered by the American Government to inquire into the condition of the lighthouse establishments of the United States, and in the year 1852 their report was laid before the Senate. The committee will naturally be very anxious to hear what they say about the lights in Great Britain, and I bog to call attention to a remarkable passage in their report, which finds fault with the system as it exists in the United States, and quotes, for emulation by the United States, the example of Groat Britain. (Hear.) The following is the passage to which I beg to call the attention of the committee: — "That the lights of the United States do not compare testing upono d f itihrLeoerne mathematicaldn o t n, the descriptions combustibles faVourably, either in efficiency or in economy, with those of Groat Britain and France. In the Trinity House corpora tion subject g a th o e f im eo p ris or t t ru an c t tio s n ubj a e n ct d o i Walker, d a e l d k e t r o , t a h ( e h. stingworld-renownedshed civil engineer, nes hvcriaae neeneslecotte Faraday ventilation, :re accessories, o f i dn f e e a o s,y r ,s i ; c apparatus, e ml g r ou h rp m t aio h rnd e jn o e n v : e. t cm s t i so e n htlne s i g nes: , Scotland, the lights and other aid' t t e en n e ivi le ga e t o m iLa c y r a e ein a d n ei the Immediate direction and superintendence distinguished engineer Mr. Alan Stephe e ns n o ee n In Ireland. also, the lights are in charge of a competent engineer, Stephenson. -Mr. George . To expect that our lights should o a i s nt t h e o f s e e xe n ell a e m n e c d e a w n o d u e ld e° l7 ll to Y ' e *i xp th ect eis o te rd m er e s e o e ni c r s constituted ( P I out of anarchy and . confusion, and perfection out of such THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY" EVENING, MARCH 8, 1853. various and imperfect ektments. In England, the Duke of Wellington presides, while the prince, the peer, the,adnfl ral, the commoner, and the retired sea captain sit together and devise means for alleviating the hardships and lessening the dangers of the mariner in approaching their dangerous coast." With respect to our success under that system, whatever may be its faults, which we have hitherto pur sued, this is the testimony of your great rivals—rivals in everything that tenas to maritime successes ; and they consider that to expect their lights to compare with your lights would be to expect order out of confusion, and per fection out of imperfect elements. (Hear, hear.) A pre judice has prevailed with regard to the application of the funds of the Trinity House, and no person who hears me can fail to have heard remarks made with respect to the enormous. receipts paid into their coffers, and doubts expressed as to the mode in which they have been em ployed. It is very natural that, where there is no system of perfect control in reference to the accounts, there should be misapprehension and misconstruction, and I am not making any complaint that those impressions should prevail, but let me ask of the committee to consider the real circumstances of the case. In the year 1836 you im posed upon the corporation of the Trinity House the ne cessity of purchasing a great number of private light houses, and incurrin g an expenditure which amounts on the whole to no less than one million and a quarter. During the interval that has elapsed since 1836, they have not been occupied, with regard to their surplus revenues, either in funding them for their own benefit, or in dis tributing them in some improper channel ; but what are the facts ? That money has been applied for the purpose of liquidating the debt which you imposed upon them ; and the debt in 1836 of a million and a quarter has been reduced to 97,500/. (Hear.). It should also be recollected that the differential dues, abolished by the reciprocity treaty, have been comp ensated , for to private individuals out of the tolls paid by the mercantile marine ; that, at least, is no fault of the corporation ; it may have been wrong or it may have been right, but justice requires that this should be stated, because it is the truth. (Hear, hear.) Concurrently with this reduction of debt, there has been the following reduction of light dues : —ln 1819 there was a reduction that by estimate amounted to 80,0001., and in 1852 there was a reduction of 38,000/. ; and without en tering into details at the present moment, I have the pleasure of informing the committee that I do not think the budget of reductions has been exhausted. (Hear.) Then comes the question to which, with the permission of the house, I will apply myself, namely, what is the proper mode of providing that the mercantile marine shall have those advantages of control over receipts and expenditure, and the accountability and responsibility to Parliament, which the mercantile interest, justly in our opinion, think they are entitled. to? (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Montrose considered the constitution of the Trinity House in two committees, and here is the recommendation that was given by the committee that sat in 1834 :—" Your committee recommend one board resident in London. The constitution of the (Trinity House) board is that of self election, and your committee have been anxious to ascer tain whether any and what constituency could be obtained to give the board a more liberal character but they have been unable to find out any proper constituency, and do not at present see how they can recommend any great alteration. Upon the whole, your committee are of opinion that the corporation of the Trinity House, of Deptford. Stroud, having been chartered ' for the good: government and increase of navigation, and the office of buoyage and beaconage having been granted to that body upon the sur render thereof by the Lord High Admiral, and the greater part of the lighthouses in England having been erected, and being now maintained by that corporation, and this committee being satisfied, after inquiring into the lights now under their charge, that the said corporation are well calculated, after some modifications in the regulations under which they admit their members, to have the management and control of the whole department of lights, recommend that all general public lights in the United Kingdom be placed tinder the management of the said corporation." Again, in 1845, there was a committee over which my hon. friend presided, and a recommendation was made that there should be only one board resident in London, and that that central board should be the Trinity Board ; and that one-third of the Trinity Board should be nominated by the Crown. The Government have carefully considered those recommendations. (Hear.) We think that there should be an additional control over the accounts of re ceipts and expenditure by some person whose station in the executive Government renders him responsible to Par liament. (Hear.) That is the opinion which the Govern ment entertain, and we shall be ready to state our reasons for holding it. (Hear, hear.) We think there are objec tions to the proposal to consolidate the lights of Ireland and Scotland under the management of the Trinity House, because the commissioners act gratuitously in Scotland, and because it would raise in Ireland an impression with re gard to centralization which we have no regard to give any suspicion of in regard to our arrangements. (Hear, hear.) Then with regard to the composition of the Trinity H ouse, the power of nominating one-third of the elder brethren by the Crown would confer patronage on the Crown, but leave its nominees in a minority of one to two within the walls, and it might have a groat tendency to create what is always most undesirable in any governing body—a need less hostility between those who owe their seats t o ono borough fund, we do not exactly see the justice of their de mand. Now, observe the position in which you stand. These tolls are not tolls exclusively upon the ship, but tolls, port (0 1 Ht n h m t aemr a b a r, n y,i txyhtawohexedaehanroi: hear.) But h s x :t i i h sß o teh enupecoal shipownertargoodsshared yatbothona c u a xd r th o . aa d we thet anfhtpiehdthe otcorio tosnt distinct i.owlxnen leaves, vh u n H oe m i fst e ih e a d r e oreae, ship owner, irta demur cation e..ss. o ca on ti t olb e e d tw in een th t e he tw ca o se v s o oL i th o os o e ns fo r u: tt po un ls ;vh a i n o d h the my cases contained in the two voluminous returns which my hon. friend the member for Montrose, first, in 1845, and again in 1846, laid on the table of this house ? I say it is necessary to have a more complete inquiry before we can decide on this question, and before we can place this charge on the Consolidated Fund. And when we talk about "injured interests," let me say ono word about that "in jured interest," the Consolidated Fund. The Consolidated Fund is an aggregate of the hard-earned taxes of the people of this country ; you impose 40,0001. on the Consolidated Fund, and you do more harm to the people of this country when you ask for a remission of taxed and do not furnish the grounds on which it is to be made. The Consolidated Fund has already paid an aggregate of 802,0001. for various local dues, and the annual charge upon that fund is now , 39,0001. Under these circumstances the Government in tend to institute such an inquiry as that to which I have referred. 'But there is another reason why inquiry should become, if not necessary, at least desirable. There is a grievance to which the mercantile marine is subject, and from which they desire to be relieved, and that is the re luctance on the part of some important foreign powers to reciprocate the great concessions which we made to them when we lowered our tariff, and particularly when we re pealed our navigation laws. The attention-of the Govern ment is earnestly directed to obtain the necessary relief for the mercantile marine in this matter ; though it is my duty to state it is attended with much practical difficulty. I have now stated the views which the Govern ment entertain with regard to the questions of lights and harbours, whether they be harbour lights or other dues. For the first there will be a complete parliamentary con trol, and for the second a complete investigation and in quiry. I will now proceed to touch upon the Admiralty question. First comes the question whether it is expedient that we should continue to retain the restriction which requires a British crew to consist of three parts British subjects, and only one part foreign. (Hear, hear.) The advocates of a continuance of that restriction say, " look at the returns and you will find there can be no great ad vantage in employing foreigners, because the privilege which now exists is by no means appreciated." It is manifest that that is no answer to the case, because the object is to have the choice of employing foreign or British seamen in such proportions as may be thought necessary. I doubt very much whether the time ever was when this regulation presented so sensible an obstruction as at the present time. I have here a letter from the Peninsular and Oriental Company to the Secretary of the Admiralty, in which they say that it is not now a question of freight at all; but it has become a question whether you can have ships and sailors. I have just received from our consul at Christiana a letter, dated 6th December, in which he says it has been asserted that • Norwegian vessels are navi gated much cheaper than British, because the master is ill-paid and the crows are badly fed ; but he says the fact is the reverse—that the Norwegian master is generally better paid and his crew bettor fed than the English. Now, after the observations I have made, the committee will be prepared to be told that the Go vernment do not prepose to retain such a restriction. (Hear, hear.) I well remember the noble lord the member for the city of London saying that Protection was the bane of agriculture. I hope the time will come when everybody will believe that to British seamanship, as well as to Bri tish ship-owning and British ship-building, you may with safety apply the maxim of free intercourse, and that neither on behalf of the one nor of the other is there any reason for British seamen to fear competition. (Hear, hear.) The next question relates to the system of volun teering into the navy. I think it would be a great dis couragement to British .subjects to go on board of ship if they heard in whatever part of the world they might be— if they should chance to happen to have ever so tyrannical a master—if their diet was ever so insufficient—or their condition ever so undesirable—that there was no hope of relief for them until the completion of the voyage ; and I think some right of appeal to a British authority may be safely given to a person so poor and defenceless as the British seaman. (Hear.) I will here relate an anecdote which ought to be known for the honour of the Queen's service. The difficulties that are felt in Australia at the present moment must be familiar to the minds of every gentleman in this house connected with the business of ship owning. Those difficulties were felt three years ago in California;• and what was done by a British officer ? On the 4th of October, 1849, Captain Shepherd, of the Incon stant, arrived at San Francisco, and immediately after wards set about ascertaining the condition of the British ships there. He found that four of them were ready for sea, but were stopped for want of men ; but on the 16th of October, through his exertions, they were all on their way to Valparaiso, manned with o ffi cers from his own ship. (Hear.) I only mention this circumstance in order that you may see that there are two sides to this as to every other question. While, however, the Government do n o t intend entirely to abolish the power in question, they do intend to bring in enactments on the subject. If pecu niary loss arise to the shipowner in consequence of such voluntcaring, it is proposed that he shall be entitled to receive compensation out of the funds of the Admiralty. Thus both the seaman and the shipowner will have justice done them. Then I next approach the question of sal vage. There are persons who think that the right of salvage in regard to the Queen's service ought to be entirely abglished. I hold it to be no dispa ragement to that service that the entire removal from them of everything in the nature of reward in cases of help af forded in cases of extreme hardship would be regarded by them as a great injustice. Lord Tenterden, a great legal authority, says the law of Great Britain is more liberal than that of Europe upon this subject. But there is a grievance connected with this question ; and that is, that the law gives a temporary lion in certain cases on things which are the subject of salvage, and I am authorised to state on the part of my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, that arrangements are in preparation whereby in cases of that nature that claim of lien may be released. I find from the representations of a deputation with whom I had a recent interview, that the jurisdiction of the Court of Admiralty is objected to in certain quar ters. But when I consider that Lord Stowell once pro sided over that court, and that it is now presided over by Dr. Lushington, I think wo should have been very pre sumptuous to have taken the advice of that deputation. I ,come next to the case of desertion ; and there again, I say . , clauses are in preparation which are int en d e d t o reme dy those difficulties under which the shipowners labour in Australia by reason of the desertion of their men in quest of gold in that colony. That question then will in a short time be dealt with by the Government. I next come to the question of consulates. There must be some erroneous mode of election and those who owe it to another mode of election. (Hear.) It is, therefore, desirable that these three bodies should not be changed in their own constitu tion, but should be placed under the control of an authority responsible to Parliament for all their receipts and expen diture ; and therefore this house, acting directly on the Executivo Government, will virtually exercise that con trol which my hon. friend stated ought to be exercised on behalf of the mercantile marine ; and I venture to say that is a more constitutional and efficient control than could be attained by any partial change - in those bodies. Those being the views of the Goveanment, they were communi cated to the Trinity House, and they returned an answer which I shall lay on the table of the house—an answer agreed to unanimously by the Trinity House, and signed by the Master of the Trinity House, his Royal Highness the Prince Consort. What the Government desired was, first, to establish a control by a Government authority directly responsible to Parliament over the collection and expenditure of their revenues ' • secondly, a periodical audits ; and, thirdly, to suspend the granting of new pen sions and charities. The Trinity House authorities were ' pleased to state their entire acquiescence in the first two propositions; and with regard to the third, they put in a plea, which came from trustees appointed by charters dated from the earliest period, for the purpose of distri buting charities to decayed mariners, which I am sure the committee will receive with respect. But that claim has not been acceeded to by the Government. The Govern- ment consider that whatever may have been the origin of those light dues, the time has arrived when, from the increase of commerce and the change in the practice and feeling on those matters, the mercantile marine are entitled . . to have this tax levied for light dues and applied to light dues. (Hear, hear.) And in my answer to the Trinity House I have spoken in these words :—" The principles which regulate the receipt, control, and expenditure of moneys compulsorily levied upon the public for the general purposes of tho community, will henceforth be applied to the sums payable to the Trinity House for lights, buoys, beacons, ballastago, in short. to all sums without exception levied upon and paid by the mercantile marine. The gross receipts will be carried to a separate account at the Bank of England, from which no payment can be made except by the authority of a department of her Majesty's Govern ment responsible to the houses of Parliament. The ac counts will be regularly forwarded to the Board of Trade, and thence, after examination, will be transmitted to the Commissioners of Audit. A full statement of the accounts of the past year will be regularly laid before Parliament. The provision of the statute 6 and 7 Will. c. 79, for re ducing the dues upon the requisition of the Sovereign in Council, will at at all times be carried into effect so soon as, in the opinion of her Majesty's Government, the state of the fund will admit, without any regard to any consi deration whatever except the efficiency of the several ser vices for which those dues are levied. It appears to her Majesty's Government that the mercantile marine is justly entitled to these advantages, and that the scheme proposed by the Trinity House will secure them." Then, in answer to their demand to be heard on this subject, the Govern ment have stated that they are prepared to give an impar tial consideration to the views that may be urged for the continuance of those pensions. But, in vindication of the opposite view taken by the Government, I may appeal to the report of the select committee on foreign trade so long ago as 1822, by which that view is confirmed. Then the Trinity House tookthe opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General as to the right in question. But nobody questions their right so long as the charters remain ; nor does any body charge them with any dereliction of duty in adminis tering the funds which they are empowered to distribute. In 1824, however, the Government said the opinion of the law officers appeared to have been taken under a mis taken impression of their views ; for the objection of the committee did not apply to the distribution, but to the principle. Well, these are the views which the Govern ment thought it their duty to communicate to the Trinity House—that there ought to be parliamentary controul and parliamentary responsibility ; and that, further, there ought to be a strict application of the funds to the pur poses for which those funds were levied. And here let me pay a tribute to the spirit in which we have been met. I have referred to the Master of the Trinity House. Let me acknowledge the obligations of the Government to the Deputy-Master and Elder Brethren, for the sincere spirit with which they have endeavoured to recognise the dis charge of their important duties with their sense of the public requirements and the national benefit. (Hear, hear.) And let me ask you to enter upon the assumption of this controul in a similar spirit of confidence and sincerity. Now, I have said nothing on the subject of harbour lights in all this, because those lights are v ery numerous, and are mixed up in most cases with other f un d s . That, sub ject, we conceive, does not fall within the province of im perial legislation. If we do not intend by the bill to deal with the harbour lights, it is not because we wish that any thing should remain improper or inconsistent with regard itfahe ciliquteytion of passing s to them, but it is because it does not belong to the regula tion of the imperial lights of the kingdom. Now, th ere i s a connection between the harbour lights and the nex t sub ject to which I shall call the attenti on o f the committee. than has been right tcToohll tolls, commonly subject bhonounity.i tg e supposed.iswn one a ofmuch e Ih much i opposite co known hr (Mr. Disraeli), when he laidm as described by the ds accurately downp tglieei rulev confined to those payments in return for which the shipping received whichsonh itop ingshould be I cordially subscribe. But I want to draw the attenti on o f th e com hirec mittee to some of the details of the question connected with this subject of passing tolls. I think it would be un fair in the highest degree to suppose that the right hon. gentleman opposite would think of charging those tolls on the Consolidated Fund, if he was in possession of all the information appertaining to the subject. When the right honourable gentleman left office, the report of Capt. Vetch on the harbour of Ramsgate had not been received. Capt. Vetch—whose report has been recently received—after re viewing the inquiries of those who had formerly preceded him in the investigation of that harbour, said he differed very materially from those predecessors as to the magni tude of the toll necessary to be levied at' all, and he had come to the conclusion that by a proper arrangement the har bour of Ramsgate might hewed° self-supporting. Capt. Vetch also says there ais • n old duty of 2d. a ton on coals levied in the town of Ramsgate under its police act which ought to be repealed, for it is monstrous to suppose that such a town as that should continue to impose a toll of that kind for such a purpose. (Hear, hear.) Surely no one, with this information before him, would recomme n d. that the local rates of Ramsgate should be borne by the general taxpayers of this kingdom. (Hear, hear.) I think we ought to know the whole truth before we assent to such a proposition. Now, I had a visit from two gentlemen—the noble lord the member for Scarborough and the hon. member for Whitby —and they said there is a private bill b e f ore P ar li amen t for abolishing what is called the passi ng t o ll o f Whitby. That bill they said was promoted by the people of Newcas tle-upon-Tyne and Sunderland, upon the groun d th a t such toll is inconsistent with public policy, and unjust. Tho noble lord and the hon. member say it may be inconsistent with public policy, but considering we have a parliamen tary title of 150 years' standing, that is a matter for Par-. liament • and they say it may be unjust, but considering th e people of Newcastle levy a tonnage rate on the export of coals from theirj own river for the support of their impiessions abroad on this subject. Those consulates are all regulated by act of Parliament in conformity with the re commendations of committees of inquiry on the subject, and I think those who make objections cannot be aware that according to the latest returns from the Foreign-office the general tax-paying body of this country paid in one year 105,000/ in respect of consuls' fees. I have heard that in one department, one consul had received nearly 5,0001. It is true, however, that recent amendments of the Mercantile Marine Act have thrown additional duties on consuls in fo- reign ports. This subject, however, is one which rests en tirely with the Foreign-office. I have had interviews with Lord Clarendon on the subject; he entered very readily into the spirit in which the complaints had been made, and I hope that the committee will be satisfied that, as respects the consulates, her Majesty's Government are not disinclined to effect any remedy that may be called for. I now come to the question of pilotage. The right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli) announced to the house the inten tion of her Majesty's late Government to appoint a com mittee to inquire into this subject, justly thinking than an inquiry was needed before any effectual legislation could be adopted for the purpose 'of meeting the numerous - grievances alleged on this subject. I a►n not sure that I know with perfect accuracy how many separate pilot juris dictions there are in the three kingdoms. I have had a list transmitted to me of between 50 and GO of them. (Hear,) I venture to submit to the house that its past experience with respect to committees of inquiry has not been so en tirely satisfactory upon the subject of pilotage as that we ouglit to confine ourselves exclusively . to that mode of in quiry. So long ago as 1835 the late Sir R. Peel appointed a, commission to investigate the subject. That commission was composed of many eminent men, and there wero among them those to whom certainly it could not be imputed that they wero rash, or ready to recommend precipitate steps on the subject. I find among the names of the commissioners those of Lord Lonsdale, the Marquis of Bute, Sir John Hardy, Mr. Robinson, Dlr. Chapman. If inquiry is neces sary in the case of some of the ports, it cannot be denied that with respect to some others we have ample evidence to warrant us in proceeding at once. What are the griev ances, for instance, of the port of London ? The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) justly treated in a vein of ridi cule the idea that a person who was competent to navigate a ship up the river was incompetent to navigate the same ship down the river, pr that a person who was compe tent to navigate a ship down could not be trusted with her up the river. (A laugh.) I am told that there is some difference between navigating a ship up and down the river. Be this as it may, I think that he who would trust his ship to the care of a man who could navigate his ship up the river, and was not able to navigate it down, would certainly be a rash man. (Hear, hear.) There is no doubt, however, that this system leads to higher charges, and to the employment of two per sons to do the work of one ; it leads also to a want of uniformity of system in the control over the pilots. Her Majesty's Government fully subscribe to the opinion that control over the pilotage is necessarily a local matter, and that it should be left as far as possible to local control. That is no reason, however, why the Government should not colder upon the Trinity House pilot or the Cinque Port pilot, who has navigated a ship either down the river or, from Dungeness Point, the power of taking a ship back, instead of travelling home by land. (Hear, hear.) In the bill which I have to submit to the committee, the vested rights of the pilots are carefully preserved, and neither in their superannuation funds nor in any other of their rights will the slightest invasion of the rights of justice be made. The principle laid down in the bill is that of local jurisdiction. I will ask those who represent the interests of the Cinque Ports to what commerce it is that they lay claim to the rights of pilotage ? Is it not the great com merce of the city of London ? and ought not, therefore, the London jurisdiction to prevail? (Hear, hear.) We pro pose, then, in this bill, while preserving all the rights of the existing bodies of pilots, to amalgamate the two bodies, and place them entirely under the same control as that of the London Pilots. Let us take the next great port—the Mersey. Lord Lonsdale, in his report to which I have alluded, states that in this port the system has been such by inter-arrangement among the pilots, as to raise the value of a pilot-vessel from 1 , 2001 . or 1 , 4001. to 4,0001. or 5,000/. ; the coasters above 100 tons burden, or vessels not employed in that trade for six or seven months, are entirely exempt from pilotage ; in other cases, so heavy are the dues that in the instance of one steam boat company the charges for pilotage for one year were not less than 2,8901. for the two ports of London and Liverpool. The report on this port concludes by stating— This, however, is a question involving, not merely the risk of property, but the lives of hundreds who embark in this class of vessels, and we conceive that some regulations are necessary, as well for the ports in which steam-vessels are now exempt as those in which they are compelled to take pilots. This has become the more necessary as steam navigation is so rapidly increasing and extending." In 1843 the right hon. member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere) passed a bill by which the pilot authorities were empowered to confer upon masters of vessels, as competent as the pilots themselves to conduct their own vessels, the right o doing. No persuasion, however, could i n d uce the /Is so authorities of Liverpool to e xerc i se thi s power, and that examin e masters with respect to their competen ce . It • ls true they made an offer to exempt th em f rom some of the con tributions in respect to pilotage which other people p a id , b ut when that offer came to be su b m itt ed to the ws aogfetaincesrtsthoo f fthe Crown it wa s f ou nd th a t suc h exemption of thelocal acts of Liverp ever, have not attempt e d to bring ' 001. The auth or iti es, how in any bill to amend their abolished. If the three separate boards of management were to be continued, he feared they could not have much expectation of greater economy being observed. Mr. LABOUCFIERE had heard with great satisfaction the statement of his right hon. friend, in the greater part of which he concurred ; but more particularly in that part of it which affirmed the high state of material and moral country. ity Toof h th im e p ß e ri n t e is n h an m y e t r h c i an s s t ta ile tem m e a n ri t n w e, a a s n e d min of en t t h ly e se of in t e h a e sur ßo e a s rd wh o i f eh T ha rad d e ere it a h te ad ben sat e isf his satisfactory, for to for a p s ro il m re o si te d t en ho t t this prosperity. He had always believed the prosperity o f shipping interest depended upon the commercial pros perity of the country ; and now it was fully proved that he was in the right. He would not then enter into any controversy on the repeal of the navigation laws, but he could not help asking hon. gentlemen, who might still con sider that the present prosperity of the shipping interest . was independent of that repeal, what would be the esp clition of the commerce of this country at this moment if the restrictions imposed by those laws had not bea-re moved before existing circumstances had arispie — With regard to the question of lights, he believed hiVrightshon. friend had followed a juaithous coureeo Wad' he .iVas of opinion that by the scheme proposed a.,substantial control o toee n t t thh their il k i n gn sinpc eogrsees possible desire l oc c c h at a s o r i o a c nm t s e e; r e t but th e t h a t w e t ihs Trinity ef would be obtai ne d over them. He (Afr. Labouchere) bore the a t i or Kn ae ynr Government time it could not be denied that the system which they administered was indefensible, and he (Mr. Labouchere) was always of opinion that a body having the handling of such large sums of the public money should be responsible to Parliament. The Trinity Board, he was bound to say, had acted in this matter in no narrow spirit. With re spect to the subject of compensation for private lights, which amounted to a million and a quarter, he con sidered that these lights were among the most monstrous abuses that had ever existed. It had been said that they were originally given to individuals to be maintained by them. It was absurd to say so. To show the contrary he needed only to refer to the Grenville papers recently pub lished, where, in a note, the Prime 3linister stated, that having had an interview with George 111., and finding his Majesty in a most gracious humour, he thought it was a good opportunity to ask him for a lighthouse for his youngest son. (Laughter.) The shipping interest had al ways complained of these lights, but unfortunately the amount was so considerable that no Chancellor of Exche quer could be got to propose its relinquishment, or rather the purchase of these lights. The late Government had intended to pay the residue at present due on the purchase —some 97,00'06.—0ut of the Consolidated Fund, and he (Mr. Labouchere) asked his right honourable friend whether it would not be worth his while to adopt the same prin ciple ? At all events he was certain it would be a ' great boon to the shipping interest. (Hear.) One of the most important portions of the bill was the pilotage ques tion. the abolition of the privileges of the Cinque Ports, and the consolidation of the pilotage system, would be a great advantage to the commerce of the country. The rate Lord Sydenham, a President of the Board of Trade, had attempted to deal with it; but though the bill he in troduced had passed the House of Commons, it was de feated in the other House of Parliament. He (f . L.) hoped, however, his right hon. friend would be more suc cessful. There was another question —one of the class designated by his right hon. friend as Admiralty griev ances. British vessels were now obli,gea to have three fourths of their respective crews British subjects, a fourth. only being permitted as foreign. It was proposed, how ever, to abrogate that obligation, and leave British ships free to be manned wholly by foreigners, with the excep tion of the master and mate. Had the Government con sidered the consequences ? As a practical grievance the existing arrangement was very slight—much less, indeed, than had been stated ; for as the only foreign sailors of any value were those from the Baltic, and as the Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians had few more than were suffi cient for the commerce of their respective nations, the numbers at command were too small to affect the market, and the British sailor, therefore, had it now near l y en tirely to himself. But if the abrogation in question was carried into effect, a ship built at Bremen, or any other foreign port, being now registered as British, by the fact of ownership such a vessel so built might be manned with a foreign crew, in case the proposed abrogation was adopted, and, therefore, have nothing British, in fact, but the British flag and British ownership. The ownership, he was afraid, under these circumstances, would be too often only colourable • and the result wou ld b e that the protection of the British flag would be but too frequently bestowed upon foreign vessels, with a man of straw—a British subject—as the nominal owner. This was a sub ject well worthy .f consideration on the part of the Go vernment. Viscount CHELSEA defended the Cinque Port pilots from the charges that had been made against them. The Cinque Ports pilots were compelled to serve in rotation, whereas the Trinity-house pilots had the option of what ever ship they chose, and they usually selected the largest as the most profitable. Again, the Cinque Ports pilots were bound to serve an apprenticeship of seven years, whereas tho Trinity-house pilots had only to serve three years. acts, to enable them to carry out their offer. We propose in this bill to tak, i away from the authorities the disquali fication which the it act places upon them, and thus open a door by which jui Lice can fairly be done • but we intend to take care that the auth or iti es shall avaiethemselves of this opportunity of so doing, and I shall ask the house to confer upon the Board u Trade powers in certain cases to enforce examinations when such a course is not adopted by the authorities. (Hear, hear.) We will take care, if local bodies are deaf to all remonstrance, and will not listen to complaints made to them, that there shall be another power which shall compel them to do justice, We desire nothing so little as centra' intermeddling with local affairs, but we think there must be a remedy for some of the grievances complained of, and we reserve to ourselves a weapon which I trust we shall not, however, be compelled to list. (H ear .) I come now to the third port--the Severn. The corporation of Bristol in 1809 obtained an act conferring upon them the power of licensing pilots for all vessels navigating the Severn. Since that period, however, great alterations have taken place. Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, and Glou cester have become great ports, some of them not even inferior to that of Bristol, and those ports feel greatly the tax imposed upon them by being compelled to employ Bristol pilots. • The jurisdiction of the corporation extends to all ports and places in the Bristol Channel to Lundy Island. The just request of the ports to which I have alluded is that they may be independent of the Bristol establishment, as they represent that they have a commerce fully equal to that of Bristol. Great care must be taken by the authorities against the inconveniences which may I arise from different sets of pilots belonging to these several ports, and the difficulties which may arise from not know ing to what port a ship may belong upon its arriving, or in bad weather the inconvenience which would result from checking the zeal of the pilots, who would not be sure of finding that the first on board would be employed. There are difficulties connected with this port which do not occur in the cases of the Severn and the Thames, and which require, consequently, a considerable amount of investiga tion. I cordially subscribe to the opinion of the right honourable member (Mr. Disraeli) that an inquiry of a most extensive description is required. I have, it must be remembered, only dealt with a few of the greater and more salient points ; there are many other grievances alleged, of which in each particular case I do not consider myself a competent judge. There are com plaints, in many cases, that the rates of pilotage aro ex tremely high, and the remuneration excessive. The ques tion however, which remains to be dealt with is, how can that inquiry best be instituted ? With respect to com mittees of this house, he would certainly be an ambitious member who would enter upon the investigation of these innumerable local jurisdictions with any idea that between the present time and the prorogation of Parliament he would be able to bring the inquiry to a conclusion. Having before me also the report of the commission con ducted by such able men as those to whom I have referred, I am not inclined again to resort to a commission for the purpose of inquiry. By the aid of the officers placed in the mercantile marine department, under the bill of the hon. member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere), we intend to construct a schedule which I propose to insert in the bill, calling upon every pilotage board in the kingdom for com plete returns, and there are also provisions in the bill to ensure the making of those returns, which will not, I think, be found inefficacious for the purpose. We propose to have sent to the Board of Trade, to be placed be fore the House of Commons, all the bye-laws, regulations, and qualifications of pilots, their numbers, remuneration, and other particulars, by which means, I trust, we shall create, not a temporary, but permanent inquiry, capable of supervision, but self-acting awl stringent in its charac ter. (Hear.) We do not propose, however, to stop there. We will not be deterred by any impediment in any local act. There will be in the bill one over-riding power of reform and inquiry over all existing acts ; and we shall throw upon every pilotage board in the kingdom the neces sity of coming to Parliament with the information re quired, and with public responsibility upon them, and we may, I think, assume that by this time next year we shall have a full and complete account before ns of the state of these bodies. Let us now apply the provisions of this bill to the case of the Severn port. In this case there are phy sical as well as legal difficulties to contend with. I have reason to believe that different plans of reform are urged by different individuals ; but all agree in the opinion that some improvement is alsolntely necessary and urgently called for with respect to this port. I have asked the house to give to the Queen in Council powers, not of a compulsory, but of a mediatorial character, and capable of exercising a strong moral compulsion. I thought it would be too strong a measure to apply in the first instance for compulsory powers, but if you clothe us with the proposed mediatonal power, I will show you how it will be exercised in the case of the Severn ports. There is fortunately now in the Board of Trade a gentleman not only of the highest eminence in his profession, but 'a man who, of all others, is best ac quainted with the navigation of the Severn, Capt. Mitchell (as was understood). If I possessed the mediatorial power referred to, I would request that gentleman to go down to the Severn and investigate /on ,the spot all the affairs of these public bodies. I have no reason to suppose that any person will refuse to afford the required information ; but I will ask you to assume such a case. Under the first pro vision of the bill they will be required to transmit to the Board of Trade such information as may enable us to judge of their present condition • and under the second they will, upon refusing to afford this information, be treated as re calcitrant bodies. I think no one can impugn the mode ration of these proposals. We have insured an inquiry far more efficacious, and of a more concurrent form, than any which could be obtained by means of a committee. This being my view of the policy of the case, I propose that you should give me your permission to introduce a bill to amend the law with respect to the pilotage of the country. I per ceive that a noble lord, connected with the office which I have now the honour to hold, under the late Government, put a question in another place to the Government with re spect to the consolidation of the laws of the mercantile marine. I think it must be obvious to the committee that if you were to attempt to consolidate all the existing laws, in a few years, with the growing character of our trade and commerce, you would be called upon to repeal that consoli dated law. I therefore invite your calm and indulgent at tention to the nature of the proposals with respect to the light dues, manning, volunteering, salvage, pilotage, and other important subjects connected with our mercantile marine which I have now submitted to the committee. I ought to state that a reduction of 25 per cent, in the rates of pilotage of vessels in the port of London will be very speedily effected if the propositions of this bill aro carried out. I have now concluded the task which the indulgence of the committee has permitted me to discharge. The propositions which I have submitted are unambitious in their character, but I believe that many of the changes proposed will result in such practical good, and at least I can tell you that you by making no surrender by adopting them, to political pressure, nor making any abnormal con concessions to the exigencies of certain interest. On the contrary, you are invited to legislate at a time of tran quillity, and her Majesty's Government only ask you to give effect to what are their sincere convictions. You are asked to take that course begun by Huskisson and con tinued by Peel ; and in the name of British enterprise we defy competition, from whatever quarter it may come, believing, sincerely believing, that in proportion as you retain your place in the vanguard of commercial freedom, in that i pame proportion will you maintain the pre-eminence which you have earned both in mercantile prosperity and maritime policy. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law relating to pilotage. Mr. HUME thanked the right hon. gentleman for his clear and comprehensive statement, and was glad to hear him advance in the way of that reform of which he (Mr. Hume) had ever been the advocate. The Trinity Board had passed a severe ordeal before the committee of 1834, and although he (Mr. Hume) had endeavoured to effect a great change in that board, ho must confess that they had executed their duties with considerable credit to them selves. He did not think that our vessels should be subject to any charge for lights, but should be placed in the posi tion of the vessels of the United States, which were never taxed in this shape. In this country the pressure of indi rect taxation was admitted to be a grievous burden on the consumer. Now, every tax that was laid upon shipping was an indirect tax, and enhanced the price of the articles on board to the consumer. The principle on which they ought to act, therefore, was this :—The ship being the means by which the goods were exported or imported, if a tax were required to maintain the harbours, let that tax be levied, not upon the ship, but upon the goods at the wharf. For his own part, however, he hesitated not to say that the light dues ought to be entirely removed from the shipping and transferred to the Consolidated Fund, to be borne by the community at large, as was the case with the lights on the coast of France and the United States of America. Further, he wanted to know why the Trinity House Corporation were to be continued? He did not com plain of them that their funds were not properly administer ed or their accounts fairly rendered; but he did contend that the great want of the present day was a responsible board. He had never yet known an honorary board to be of any use. The Trinity Board, when first established in the reign of Elizabeth, acted very efficiently ; but now that nearly all other public bodies were made responsible, and brought under public control, he could not see why the Trinity Board should be made an exception to the general rule. In that part of the measure of the right hon. gentleman which proposed to apply the' lighthouse dues to lighthouse purposes, he (Mr. Hume) entirely concurred. Whilst ho agreed in that, however, he must say he should like to see the English sailor placed in a better position than ho occu pied at present. He had now no chance or hope of obtain ing a refuge in his old age ; in fact, no just provision to which he was entitled was made for him, although, if they referred to the report of the committee, they would find it contained a recommendation that such provision should be made for him out of the funds to which he contributed. They might rely upon it, that if they did justice to the English sailors there would no longer be reason for com plaining that the best of them went into the service of the United States of America and other countries. So far as the plan of the Government proceeded, he quite approved of it ; his only objection was that it did not go far enough. What he wished they would do was to abolish the honorary board, and have nothing to do with princes and lords, and persons of that description. They were of no use. If h e might speak plainly, they were of no use there—they we re not wanted. (An Hon. Member—" Lumber.") Yes, th e y were.lumber. (A laugh.) So far as the question of salvage was concerned, he thought we should do well to follow the examples of France and the United States ; for he had in assistance to his possession at that moment the instructions which were e.whatever. Ile given to the navies of those countries, and by inch the officers of every ship were required to afford ofth eevmeryercoanthtilere country,marine, not only a o n f y th oh ei a r rg o subject th Fvrakinchce was Anothermnoctohniepr subr hoped the British navy would not be Cou ntry, but compared to rem a i n il m it e s ri p ea res in ent t d h e i gr s degraded s e t t a . te worthy the consideration of the Gotovekrnment Was the Ad miraltyforecipuleanctevintkcoonoaduucsteinogf Then he was anxious to know p c e e d i Courts, s liith th e e se de c ia ourt ys a wh b i e c i h ng serious expense and in (a laugh), or ratr e The commwith the Warden of the what was intended to be d that ttee on sinecures when they mad e Cinque Ports the office ? er What was to be done with their report agreed but they required that o Duke of Wellington, n quiry should be as it was a sinecure held by the alteration should then be made ; mad: upon the subject, and he Pir• Government he himselfa on the decease of the duke an in ; inquire what th begged to state, that if no inquiry had been lu ad l t v t ,L the to I had been made -understood that should move fora committee Warden of the C e i l nt it qu ol e u r m o e rt n s t .s now were, the e rervuzlie with noblerea l r o d rd t ohathde recentlybeieg been m ' appo inted hat his duties fore, by a report to be laid 111)°n the their ;,,, 3 et: performance, were, and what he was to reee Th- - f that if there were no because a committee had repor— tl e w hole, he thought duties the office should cease. °nnwoluld be productive of the bill proposed to be broug Let the house know, there lliciountry, and he should be considerable advantage to the i h roll gh the house. happy to facilitate it s pregre.- -no-Ally in the propositions of Mr. HENLEY, agni i= e gard to salvage, he considered the Government. 1.71 it a very grave qu' -Lon whether it should not be entirely Lord A. PAGET would express his great gratification at the proposal of the right hon. gentleman the head of the Board of Trade, for if he carried it out, it would relieve the shipping interest from one of the greatest burdens which weighed upon that interest, because in his opinion the expense of pilotage was one of the heaviest burdens the shipping interest had to bear. The noble lord here re ferred to the Cinque Port pilots, and stated he had th e fact from Mr. Green, of Bl ac k we ll , that even though blue lights were burned for assistance by his vessels, not a single Cinque Port pilot would render help. Mr. TURNER would not go through the statement made to the house at that moment, but there was one cir cumstance of importance—the desertion of British seamen in foreign and colonial ports, which required a few re marks. He was informed that there were 80,000 tons of shipping in Australian ports which could no t ge t awa y f or want of men through desertion. The power of the local authorities was quite insufficient to cure the evil. The penalty of imprisonment, which could be inflicted, was not sufficient to repress this practice. He trusted, there. fore, that the local magistrates would have their power strengthened by some means, but especially by the aid of a war steamer or two in the Australian ports—the presence of which would be most material and effective. He thought Government could not do better than keep the steam service in an efficient state, and he was certain that the pilot interest would not oppose any obstacles to proper changes and improvements. Mr. HEADLAM thought the shipping interest had not been dealt with in that liberal spirit to which they were entitled, considering the competition to which that interest was exposed. Still he was glad to see that competition was to be made even more unrestricted, and though some dissatisfaction and loss would perhaps be created at first, he was satisfied that the result would be generally bene ficial. He was for removing all restrictions whatever, and for leaving the shipping interest free and uncontrolled. He objected to delay on the subject of passing tolls. He hoped the question would be dealt with forthwith. He said, do right to the shipping interest, but let the burden cease from that moment. Mr. DEEDES said the pilot body had existed for centu ries, and before anything was done to injure their interest, it was right and proper that the whole subject should be fully and fairly considered. With regard to the education of pilots, he contended that no one ought to be allowed to hold the situation and to perform the duties of pilot unless known to possess sufficient skill and experience. Then with respect to the suggestion to w or k on l ower t erms, th a t was a question which was capable of being determined by a fair consideration of all the facts. If, afters full and im partial inquiry, it could be shown that the existing system could be modified and improved, he should be willing to agree to the proposition for change. Sir G. PECHELL had been most anxious for a series of years to see the good work of reformation effected. It must be obvious that the whole fabric was coming to an end. It was, therefore, quite time that something was done to accelerate that event, and to lay the foundation of a better system. Ho believed the present measure would be of great benefit, and he trusted it would meet with sup port, for it got rid of the monster evil, the Cinque Ports. Mr. HASTIE expressed his satisfaction that the light dues were no longer to be applicable to any other than to light - house purposes. Ho was also gratified to perceive that the restriction on the manning of British vessels was to be taken off. He trusted that some of the propositions shadowed forth in the speech of the President of the Board of Trade would be embodied in a bill. Mr. INGHAM expressed surprise that a greater reduc tion in the amount of light dues was not to be effected, the more especially as the debts to be paid had become so much reduced. He also thought that, in cases of salvage, the officers of the navy ought to look to the Admiralty for remuneration rather than to the merchant service. After a few words from Mr. STAPLETON, Mr. HUDSON inquired whether it was intended to leave the question of the passing of tolls open for inquiry Mr. CARDWELL replied in the affirmative, Mr. HUDSON said that such a course, wwhioulloslismibt:3duvd:: unsatisfactory to his constituents. They had expected that a Ministry of " all the talents" would have been ma r l with a measure without resorting to an m ui AiT he rY' l'r w esi .e den va t, o f e da r et th a t s e u x n e 1 t m d ae p ri 20 t. :1 always the excuse for postponement. were taxed for passing from the south n g d te ou h ght not to be borough and Hartlepool pay its own way. He (Mr. Hudson) knew itaretniilurde°; but cwhatharged B ohaer dcont e nd e dTrade had was, saw th i charged with the errors of other pl terest would view with dis satisfact' aees, The shipping in. right hon. gentleman in this res ion the statement of the derland, exposed as they w ere f r et * The people of Sun with the foreigner, required unrestricted competition ponement of their case. imm ediate relief, not a post and having received justic They asked for simple justice. were not prepared to e fr om the late Government, they They were at the r rece i ve less from the present one. Is. 61. a load on illesent moment subjected to a tax of be relieved. The ti mber,t from which they had a right to of the noble lord th e been been imposed by the government member and he member for the City of London, (Mr. Hudson) trusted that in the forthcoming budget of the Chancellor of the Exche quer that charge would be taken out of the tariff. q Mr. CARD WELL said that he had n othing to do in his questions ; he had de art P ment with fiscal or financial grue:ith any of the nothing to do with the timber dut a ies ih e e _ x . e B cn quer. He questions affecting the bala nce . 4.. :o for the purpose of post. denied that inquiry was resorted to Government Nvas, that ponement. The only wish of the or private interests, before dealing with public i_ informed as to facts. Those who they should be accurately ' no reduction in the duties on thought there would e to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's lights, he would referTh , m easure he should introduce was coming statement- house, and by now going into t d ed • before l the h bill would be anticipa , not yet ' ions of t e the house resumed, some of the provisions then agreed fe , the bill was read The motion benin,aving been reported, and the resolutio n h a first time. BLACKBURN DEBATE. E N —ADJOURNED N da v c i a .ew th s e w h h ouse ich ttbiar 3f r eto li g . hri G p i ht u s : eo t I; reuefosiheUilm° extreme caution i,f, wish ed.iil former e o r n tho thises occasion reinforceoci t °e:ict were thei r o e n . t ou reference o ist en s pen evidentlilookingd ttohe the powers r N ; 4 l :B elleSt t O i :1 t a abide olodniferaFbiyatrtitiles7deineteitwwisiasotnhqof their com mittees. It appeared to him, that the house would be ry e a d b a se n n g e e e m o us f a c° ny ur :po if rt th f e ro y m a committee jus twrit:kyiitnnsigiAiuvtcheh a suspension. Why, in one of the cases before the house only five cases of bribery had been made out, and in another only one, though 15 or 16 were decided to be entirely guiltless. (Hear.) It used formerly to be a question for parties whether writs should be suspended or not ; but if the house were to agree to the present motion, it seemed to him that they would be reverting to the old practice which the Grenville Act was intended to cure. (Hear, hear.) He, therefore, must say, that the constitu tion and general government was much more likely to be infringed upon by the passing of the resolution than by ~,_