The Sun. — London, England, 1832-06-14 00:00:00

Hon. and Learned Gentleman imputed to him. lies would not recriminate. He Versed not allude to-the con stant state of agitation in which *the Hon- anetearned- Gentleman endeavoured to keep Ireland. 'fhere were charges which lie might bring forward in reply to the Hon. 214 Learned Gentleman, but he would abstain from noticing the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's spoken Ca lumnies, as he had always abstained from noticing his written ones. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman must certainly, however, have been laughing at his audience in that House (as be had frequently laughed at his audience elsewhere), when he expressed his surprise that an Irish man had not been selected to bring in the Irish Reform Bill. Why, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman knew perfectly well, that it was necessary that that Bill should be brought in by an organ of Government. He (Mr.. Stanley) had brought in the Irish Reform Bill, not because he was not an Irishman, but because he was the Chief Secretary for Ireland. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were really desirous that a Bill, either with or without amend ments, for reforming the representation in Ireland, should pass, he would have allowed the House to go into the con sideration of the first clause, which would have afforded him the opportunity of moving in the shape of an amend ment to that clause, the amendment which lie had moved as an instruction to the Committee. But the Hon. and Learned Gentleman threatened to move instruction after instruction. Was that the way to facilitate the accom plishment of Reform ? Was that the way to esta blish the good understanding between thin country and Ireland, the absence of which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman always lamented, and yet tock all possible means to perpetuate? He would now say a few words with respect to the forty-shilling freeholders in Ireland. He was happy to find that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman abandoned all except the forty-shilling freeholders in fee.—[Mr. 0' Connell said a few words across the table, which we understood to be a denial of this supposition.] The Hon. and Learned Gentleman maintained that it had been wrong to take away the elective franchise from this class of persona, and therefore that it ought to be restored. In the first place, there was a great difference between confirming a right now existing, and giving a right which the legislature had re cently denied. He did not say that in 1829 he might not have been induced to make any exception in favour of the forty-shilling freeholders in fee. But now, unless it could be proved that that class of persona was a large and re epectahle body, he should be unwilling to acknowledge a theoretical right in Ireland, simply because that right had been acknowledged in England. It must first be seen whether the individuals were the same respectable class of persons in Ireland that they were in England. Now he believed, that in a great majority of the Irish counties, there was not a single forty-shilling freeholder ; and that in the great majority of the counties in Ireland in which there were forty-shilling-freeholders in fee, they were the lowest, the most venal, and the most corrupt portion of the population. In the county of Wexford, for instance, there were a considerable number of them ; and what were they? Persons, who, to use the American phrase, had "squatted" on a mountain or bog, and acquired a title by long possession. These persons were so venal, that at as election for the county, many years ago, the rival candi date, came to an agreement not to purchase the eight hun dred votes offered them for that purpose by the forty shilling freeholders in fee. Unless, therefore, he heard from the Members for Ireland that there was in that coma try a large and respectable body of forty-shilling free holders in fee—not under the control of their landlords; not under the contro 1 of their priests, or not under the control of agitators--he should not think that the right nn the part of that class to the restoration of the elective franchise had be, n made out ; and on that short ground lie opposed the instruction which had been moved by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Mr. LEADER warmly supported the motion made by his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Kerry, and maintained that there was a deep feeling of dissatisfaction and rancour throughout Ireland with respect to the new measure of Reform. In the province of Ulster there were, at the time of the Disfranchisement Bill, 190,000 voters, fur whom bad been substituted a constituency of 19,264 ten. pound freeholders. From documents in his possession, it appeared that by the new measure the county constituency would not exceed 26,000 in number. In the five-and-twenty email towns comprehended in the Bill, there would, in fact, be no extension, but only a change in the elective franchise. The proposed measure was a mere moel:ery. The people of Ireland were, how ever, quite alive to their rights—and, he believed, were determined to maintain them. He called on Government to reconsider this qualification, and reduce it in towns to 51., which in Ireland would not be. a lower qualification than 101. in England. Sir J. BURKE—In Committee he would move that six of the Members representing smaller towns, and the additional Member for the University, should be given to the seven larger counties. Mr. H. GRATTAN would support the amendment. Sir J. NEWPORT contended that the 40s. freeholders in fee should be placed on the same footing as in Ireland. Much of the Bill was beneficial—but there was also much evil mingled with it. He sawn° reason why the system of registration should not he the same in both countries. Lord ALTHORP felt it hie duty to support the mea sure as it stood. The effect of the instruction would be to impede, if not altogether to destroy the measure. The object of Government, in proposing Reform was not so much to create new rights as to remove practical griev ances. The 10s. freeholders in fee possessed no right under the present law. They were not a numerous class ; and he saw no practical grievance in withholding the franchise from them. As to the registration, he thought it would be well to wait until they saw how the system would work in Eugland, and then, if there were any alterations that could be suggested, which would he likely to be beneficially employed in Ireland, he should be willing to listen to the suggestion, and give it his best consideration. Mr. M. O'CONNELL should support the amendment, and with respect to the system of registration, was fully convinced, from his own personal observation, that it was very partially conducted in Ireland. It certainly required amendment. He objec'ed to the refusal to give the fran chise to the forty-shilling freeholders in fee, because he thought that to deprive them of that franchise was to take away from them an honest of of ambition, which would operate successfully to promote among them habits of frugality and forethought. Mr. WYSE was also in favour of the amendment, and said that to deprive the bona fide 40s. freeholders in fee of a franchise was to do that which could not hut pro mote a spirit of discontent in Ireland. The reason given for this was, that to allow the franchise to that class of men would be to give it to those who were sure to be in flueneed in the exercise of it. He denied the fact in the first place, but, if liability to be influenced in some way or other was an objection to allow a man, he hardly knew a corner in the empire that was free flow the liability. This was not like a common Bill that might be changed to-morrow; it ought to be a final measure, but it could not be so if it was not satisfactory to the people. Mr. HUNT should support the amendment. Mr. JAMES GRATTAN should certainly support the amendment ; because, under all circumstances, he bad been opposed to depriving the 40s. freeholders in Ire . „ Find of their votes ; and he must consis►tently adhere to that opinion. He took that opportunity of thanking the Noble Lord for having stated that he should be willing at another time to listen to suggestions for the improvement of the registration system in Ireland. Mr. YOUNG supported the amendment. Mr. SHIEL also supported the amendment. There was one paramount reason why it should be adopted, and that was, that it would assimilate the constituencies of the two countries. There were, however, other reasons, though that was one of paramount importance. were, first, that the number of 40s. freeholders in fee was very small, so that no inconvenience could be dreaded from introducing them into the constituencies; next, that to , admit them, would be to admit an important principle ; and lastly, that such a course would be a most gratifying _ _ concession to the people of Ir'elantl. On these grounds he entre,ited the House to yield what would cost them so little, while it would he so much estimated in Ireland. Lord J. RUSSELL referred to what bad paased during the discussion of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, when a compact was entered into to abolish the forty-shilling free holders in Ireland, in order that the boon of emancipation so long withheld might at length be granted. Without the abolition of the forty.shilling freeholders, that xnea- sure would neither have met with the sanction of the Le• gialature nor the assent of the Crown. lie contended, therefore, that it was not fit now to restore what had been then withdrawn. The question as to the close boroughs of Ireland stood upon entirely diff-rent grounds, as during the debates on the Relief Bill no engagement regarding them had been entered into, nor were they mentioned in the discussion. His Lordship also contended, that same of the wishes and remonstrances of the Irish Members' _ . before the Bill was framed, had been atteniell — toraricil,e , particularly instanced the point regarding leases. He was , sorry the Hon. Member thought there was any disposition, in the British Government to withhold from Ireland a boon which could be safely conceded : he assured hint that such was by no means the case, and he requested him and' others not to consider the propositions of the advisers of the Crown with a spirit of jealousy, which could only ex-. cite unmerited enmity. - - Mr. JAMES should support the motion, on the groura,, that injustice had been eto Ireland, when her free tiolders were deprived of Cl ranchise. - ,M4Lo_use divided— For fr. O'Connell's mot 7:1 Against it 12:2 Majority Mr. O'CONNELL then rose for the purpose of movise. mother amendment, which he said was of a similar cha racter, and had for object the restoration of those free holders to their franchise whose freeholds were of the an nual value of 1/. and upwards, the profit upon which was one-third of the rent, and the fine upon the fall of any of the lives net more than 21. He stated that he brought fur yard his propositions in the present stage, in order that he might register on the Journals, that the rights of Irish men had been claimed and refused. He complained that the Noble Lord (J. Russell), instead of giving Ireland any real and substantial benefit, had dealt only in soft smooth words, which would by no means satisfy 7,500,000 people. While the Noble Lord gave a libe ral franchise to England, he gave only honeyed sen• tenets to Ireland—he was a reformer in England, and continuator of abuses in Ireland. He (Mr. O'Connell) wished it to be known in Ireland, that English Catholics whom the 40s. freeholders of Ireland had emancipated (and some of whom ought to be unemancipated), when a question like that just decided was put to the vote, had walked out of the House area-i n-arm with the Orange Member for Sligo. The English Conservatives and Irish Orangemen were, on this occasion, supported also by the Noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who, in 1829, reprobated the disfranchisement of the 40s. free holders, and voted against that measure. If he (Mr. O'Connell) could remember the language in which the Noble Lord formerly defended those freeholders, he would be able to make for them a better defence than he could make by any effort of his own composition. As a reason for refusing to restore the franchise to these freeholders, it had been asserted by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that they had invaded the commons, and that they held their tenures by right of conquest. But he would tell these Right Hon. Gentlemen, that men of more foresight than was possessed by the framers of that Reform Bill, had three times purposely driven the Irish people to inef fectual rebellion, by measures which, considering the spi rit of the age, were not more irritating than the measures of the Right Hon, Gentlemen.—(Hear, hear.) By such means the soil of Ireland bad been three times conquered, and he believed the family of the Right Hon. Gentleman had been made nothing the poorer by the process.--( Hear. ) It seemed, therefore, to be no very weighty argument against the rights of the 40s. freeholders, that they had squatted upon the Commons.—(lfear, and laughter.) However, the amendment which he had now to propose was nut liable to such an objection, as the persons to whom it would give the franchise were not squatters—(A laugh)—or invaders, but they held their lands by compact with the proprietors. Neither could it be argued that to enfranchise them would be to extend the constituency too widely ; and yet, if that were the case, he should not ad mit that the argument, in this case, would be of any weight, because he thought it was a wise policy to encou rage the people aa much as possible to acquire property of the kind to which his amendment referred. He concluded by moving, " That it be an instruction to the Committee to insert a clause restoring the franchise to persons holding freeholds of the yearly value of forty shillings, provided that such freeholds he not liable to a greater fine than 405., or to an annual rent exceeding V. sterling." Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to the allusion made to him by the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry, would only say that, in the course which he had taken on the occasion of the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, he had been influenced by the conduct of the majority of the Irish Members who were at that time in Parliament, and amongst whom were gentlemen as well acquainted with, and as much attached to, the interests of Ireland as the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen could possibly be. In that case, and in his conduct respecting the emancipation of the Catholics, he had acted in the way in which he thought he could beat promote the interest of Ireland, and so he had always acted, and always would act, upon every question relating to that country, whatever might he the opinions of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry. Mr. HO WARD had voted with his Hon. Friend, the Member for Kerry, upon his previous motion, because he thought that it was most desirable to assimilate, as mvch as possible, the laws and institutions of Ireland to those of Great Britain ; and the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman seemed to him to be calculated to remove every shadow of a pretence for the measure which that gentle man himself (Mr. O'Connell) had for stone time past been calling for, and which to him (Mr. Howard) seemed to be most detrimental to the interests of the two countries. —(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman seconded the amendment. Lord ALTHORP said that the motives which had in duced him to oppose the previous motion of the lion. and Learned Member for Kerry, must compel him to vote also against the present motion ; and he (lid not think that anything which had fallen front the Hon. and Learned Gentleman made it necessary for him (Lord Althorp) to to occupy the time of the House further. Lord MILTON did not think that the reasons which his Majesty's Ministers had given for their opposition to Mr. O'Connell's previous motion, were such as could be satisfactory to their own minds—(Hear, bear)—and he was sure that they would not be satisfactory to the people of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) If he thought that the suc cess of the present amendment would lead to the success of the other in the Committee, he would certainly support it ; because he thought it would give the greatest satis faction to the people, both of England and Ireland ; and he therefore hoped that Ministers would be yet induced to reconsider that motion. But as he did not think that the adoption of the present amendment would lead to the adoption of the previous one, lie would oppose it ; because, if successful, and carried into operation by itself, it would lead to the manufacture of vote,, which would throw the representation into the bands of the great landowners.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. RUTH ITN regetted the determination to which the House came upon the former motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry. To have acceded to it, would insure to them the gratitude of the people of Ire land, which they would have acquired at no cost to them selves. But it was impossible that the Reform Bill, with out such an amendment, could be a final measure.—(Hear, bear.) The Bill would give so little satisfaction, that the Ministers and the House could expect no gratitude for it from the people of Ireland. Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said, that if the question now under discussion were, whether or not the forty shilling freeholders should be disfranchised, he would op pose the disfranchisement. But the question now was one of creation ; and, as there had Leen no new creation of forty-shilling voters in England, he did not think that Ire land could set up any claim to have such a class of electors created. They had not existed in that country for the last three years. When they did exist, he was one of the few who opposed their disfranchisement, at a time when the llon. and Learned Member for Kerry and Sir Francis Burdett supported that measure. Mr. O'CONNELL begged leave to set the Noble Lord right as to a question of tact.—(Hear.) At the time to which the Noble Lord referred, he (Mr. O'Connell) had strenuously opposed the disfranchisement of the forty shilling freeholder. There was a meeting of the members friendly to Catholic Emancipation, at the house of Sir F. Burdett, for the purpose of considering the expediency of supporting the Disfranchisement Bill, and to that meeting two gentlemen were sent by the Deputation from the Ca tholic Association, to protest against the acceptance of Emancipation, upon the condition that the forty-shilling freeholders should be disfranchised. Lord G. BENTINCK might have been mistaken as to the side which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman took in 1t3529 ; but he could not be mistaken as to the opinions which that Gentleman expressed in his evidence before the Committee in 1825, in which he strongly recommended the disfranchisement of the forty-shiding freeholder. Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Noble Lord had to lerably well proved his consistency, by voting at one time one way and at another time in an opposite way upon the same question.—(A laugh.) If the Noble Lord had heard him (Mr. O'Connell) when he, that evening, explained his views upon the present question, he would know that lie (Mr. O'Connell) had not been inconsistent. The franchise of which he spoke, in his evidence before the Committee in 1825, was terminable, the tenure being for a single life and at a rack-rent.—(Hear, hear.) But he was then opposed, as he now was, to the disfranchisement of fieeholders in fee.—( Hear, hear). Mr. GRATTAN said, that if the Noble Lord had read the papers laid upon the table, in connexion with the Irish Reform Bill, he would have found that the amendment of the Hon. and Learned Member for Kerry would not create a new class of voters, as there were no less than four thousand of the present constituency forty-shilling free holders in the towns. But when lie saw the Noble Lord opposing the English Reform Bill, he could not expect that he could support a measure of equal justice for freland.—( Hear). Mr. STANLEY said, that the Noble Lord's argument was applied only to the freeholders in the counties, as they shine were disfranchised in 1829, The effect of the lion. '474 Learned . Gentleman's (Mr. O'Connell) motion, if tairied into effect, would be to a subdivision of holding, which now gave en independent constituency, into a num, her of freeholds which would give a most dependent elate of voters. Mr. O'CONNELL contended that a subdivision quits as great already existed in England. Lord PALMERSTON defended himself front tle charge of inconsistency, on the ground that, in 1829, hi opposed the disfranchisement of an existing body of elec tors ; whereas, what he now opposed was the creation of a new constituency. The Amendment was then put and negatived without a division. After which, the Order of the Day was read, and on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, Sir ROBERT HERON rose to move that it be an instruction to the Committee to make provision in the Bill, that the University of Dublin do continue to return one Member only to serve in Parliament. Though that University had frequently sent to the House of Commons men distinguished for learning and talents, yet it did not appear to him that there were any grounds of justice or expediency upon which that addition to the representation of the University could defended. There was in Dublin University but a single college, which had at present only seventy voters—a number which the Bill would augment to the extent of not more than two hundred ; while the University of Cambridge had 2,200 electors, and that of Oxford 2,500. He would he glad to learn what superior claims the University of Dublin, hid which gave it a right to a tenfold representation. There were four Univer sities in Scotland, and the Scotch Reform Bill did not give to one of these a single representative ; and where lay the superiority of Trinity College, Dublin ? How small the attention paid to the real and just claims of wealth, population, and intelligence in the formation of the present measure, the House might judge of from the fact that the county of Cork, with 800,000 souls, and comprising almost a seventh part of the island, had but two Members. Then there was the city of Kilkenny, with a population of 20,000, and with its suburb of St. Canice, containing 30,000 had only one Member. If the promoters of the Bill were desirous of giving five additional Members to Ireland, why not dispose of them in some other way—for example, in giving a third Member to the City of Dublin ? And if in giving an additional Member to the University, they aimed at supporting the Protestant interest in Ireland, they surely might as effectually accomplish that object by increasing the representatives for Londonderry, or some other place in the north of Ireland. The Hon. Baronet then con cluded by making the motion as stated above, adding, that if lie succeeded in that motion, he then would move that Kilkenny be the place to receive the additional Member, instead of the University. Mr. FERGUSON seconded the motion. Mr. CRAMPTON, observing that the question being between the University of Dublin and the city of Kil kenny, should say nothing of the superior claims put forth for the English and Scotch Universities. It had been conceded that five additional Members should be give❑ to Ireland ; and the question before the House was, as to the allocation of those Members. In the first place, he would call the attention of the House to this fact, that though there was but one College in Dublin, in contained from 1,500 to 2,000 students upon its books, and it was alto gether erroneous to say that there would be under the new Bill only 200 electors, for, in a very short time they would amount to 600, all of whom would he found on the Bench, the Bar, the Medical Profession, and amongst the heads of the Church. Even at the time when the elec tors of the University were at the lowest numerical amourr, they still manifested their independence, return ing Mr. Plunkett again and again, against the whole in fluence of Government. He admitted the claims of Kil kenny to an additional representative, but not at the ex pense of the University—s University founded and en dowed for the maintenance of the Protestant religion ; and for that purpose chitfly was imparted to it the privi lege of sending Members to Parliament. Mr. SHELL said it was strange the Solicitor General for Irela❑d did not attempt to answer the argument drawn from the Scotch Universities. To Scotland eight addi tional Members are to be given; to Ireland eight. Of the eight additional Members for Scotland, not one is awarded to her four unrepresented Universities ; while it is proposed to allocate one fifth of the new representation of Ireland to her University, which is already representel There are 2000 students on the books of the University of Edinburgh ; there are but 1500 on those of Dublin College. The first is without a Member ; is the second to have two ? Do the interests of literature, or of the country (for the question divides itself into these con aiderations) require that Dublin College should transmit to that House a second edition, or rather duplicate, of the Learned Gentl&nan, by whom the feelings of his consti tuents are represented by so indisputable a fidelity—who compensates by his zeal for the singleness of his delegation, and of whom, in reference to the multiplicity of his ac complishments, it may be justly said that he is himself a host ?—(A laugh.) The constituency of Dublin Col lege is reducible to three classes—the fellows, the scholars, and the ex-scholars. Let us examine what benefit to science can be obtained by enabling any one of them to return two Members to Parliament. The Fellows are twenty-five; there are seven senior and eighteen junior; the former have no pupils—their single duty is to receive about three thousand pounds a year from the funds of the College; but it is to he presumed (although the University Press does not corroborate the suggestion,) than in return they are engaged in accumulat ing large masses of erudition, in enriching themselves with literary treasure, in opening new veins cf intellectual wealth, in their moral, mental, and physical investigation. Their fortunate repose, so auspicious to the noble and disinterested pursuits, ought not to be distracted by a mul tifarious canvass, and it is not desirable that they should be molested by two Members of Parliament whispering Bishoprics in their ears. The minor fellows earn their livelihood by the:r pupils, and some of them earn their pupils by their politics. They do not excel in the profes sor's chair more than in the rostrum of conservative agi tation ; they have thus obtained a spurious ascendency— their influence is as great as it is illegitimate—they com mand the return at elections—they are as renowned for their creation of a Member of Parliament, as for the formation of a Bachelor of Art , . One is, however, at a loss to see how the cause of literature, and those pursuits to which a University ought to be extensively devoted, will be promoted, by widening the field of their ambition, by opening a larger career for their political influence, and enabling them to inflict a brace of delegates on this House. —(Hear, hear.) We come to the scholars ; among the scholars there are, no doubt, several high-minded and in dependent gentlemen ; but many are in such narrow cir cumstaness as to be led into temptation. But it may be said that the imperfection of this constituency will be re medied by allowing the ex-scholars to vote. We have seen the school of polities! morality in which they have been nurtured. But who, and where are they ? They are scattered over the world. How ma❑y of them will be assembled for an electien ? And who will pretend that any literary advantage will accrue from the septennial, or, if you will, the triennial gathering of hese literary estrays in Trinity College ?—(Hear, hear. But look at the political question, to give, as a part 0, Reform, an additional Member to a constituency of 150 persons (for there will be no more), is repugnant to the principles on which Reform itself is founded. Dublin College has now 95 voters; the addition of ex-scholars, snaking allowance for deaths and necessary absence, can not amount to 50, for the Irish Solicitor-General is in this particular quite incorrect.—(Hear.) You have determined that in England every borough, even the boroughs in sche dule B, shall comprise 300 voters ; and you are prepared to give two Members to the worst of all constituencies, containing a number less than that of the meanest Parlia mentary hamlet in the empire. This objection is fatal, but there is one still stronger ; Roman Chatholies are ex cluded from fellowships and scholarships. Is it not an oflence to the feelings, and a wrong to the rights of the Irish people, thzt you should, out of five Mein b,ls, give one to an exclusive and sacerdotal corporation? —(Hear, hear.) Must one of the five—the miserable five, which you affect to give to Ireland—be thus prodigally and almost profligately cast away' ? If you were to award us our due proportion, then the waste of one would be more excusable—but where your donation is so small (so small in comparison with our rights and with your own dignity and honour)—where you have so little to give, give that little well—give it to the people, and do not sully tbe entire endowment by throwing any part of it away upon tl.e community of acrimonious religionists, with whom the people cannot sympathise, and who cannot sympathise with the people— how are characterised by monistic narrowness 'and the pride of priestcraft, and in whom all the virulence of faction, the virulence of domination, and the sacred rancours of po lemics are combined. Whi gs ! - why do you this ? What motive, what reason, what pretence can there be for this ? Is it because Ireland has deserved so ill, and Dublin College has deserved sa well at your hands, that you are determined on offering a palpable affront to the one by conferring this baneful favour - on tile other ? (Hear, hear.) One word more and I have done. The Secretary for Ireland has not unfre.quently vaunted of the division of the Irish 'Members, and in support of •his mea.: sorts (on tithes, for instance), he bas appealed to the Majority of Irishmen on his side. This test is' not an un fair one ; but let it not be monopolized, nor reserved for the -Hon. Gentleman's exclusive use. Ho -- .v do the Irish Nj em b e ,, feel—how will they act on this motion ? Is there a mail amongst them, who has ever voted for Be form, who will not strenuously remonstrate against till. most unfortunate alteration ? If lam wrong, pursue your course—adhere to your Cabinet decision ; but if I an. right (and am I not right?)—if to a man the Irish Mem • hers, who habitually support the Government, exclaim against this proceeding in the language of surprise, pain. resentment—then let me implore you, in a question ex elusively ours, in which our feelings, our rights, our in terest are alone involved, to make Ireland some return for incalculable services and countless obligations, by yielding where there is every motive to yield to her entreaties, and to abandon the miserable policy of sacrificing your best friends to your worst antagonists, and to ba true to us, in order that you may not be traitors to yourselves.—(Cheers.) • Mr. LEFROY denied that the University was bigoted in any degree. On the contrary, it always acted with equal impartiality towards both Roman Catholics and Pro , testants. The number of voters would also be considerably increased by this Bill, especially if the motion of the Hon. Member for Mallow was successful, the effect of which would be to give votes to the Masters of Arts. Mr. O'CONNELL could not allow the University the liberality the Hon. and Learned Member boasted it Pos sessed. The University gave degrees, indeed, to Catholics, but it was because their degrees were worth nothing. He ' hoped the Ministers would preserve the Members for the University, in order to preserve their own consistency. The Government would not be consistent, unless it gave to that exclusive and Protestant community another Member. The Government was bound to support the proposition for giving the University another Member. If it had been proposed to give the Member to Maynooth he would have opposed the motion, because that was an exclusive body. In the annals of profligacy and corrup tion, greater profligacy and corruption could not be found than took place at the contested elections for the Univer sity, as was proved before the Irish House of Commons. The Government would not give the vote to Masters of Arts, and if it were to propose that he should oppose it. The Masters would have to be brought from all parts of the kingdom, and the constituency would be the most numerous of any in the kingdom. It was a mockery of Reform to give four Members to eight millions of people, and give one to an exclusive and narrow body, and that body, to make the matter worse, a small Protestant body in the midst of the eight millions of Catholics to whom justice was denied. Mr. STANLEY assured the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman that the Government would persevere, and would act with consistency. He hoped that there would alway 4 be found reasonable men enough in the House to prevent the Hon. and Learned Member from hurrying the House into his extremes. He admitted that the Member was given to the University by the Government, because it was a Protestant establishment. He did not wish litera ture, and particularly Protestant literature, to be without its weight in the Parliament. He wished that there were no distinction between Protestants and Catholics; but that existing, he thought the Government had not done too much in throwing in another• Member for the University. The propriety of extending the franchise had been much discussed, and on that point there was a great variety of opinions. The object of the Government was to extend it as far as the charter would possibly allow. By admit ting Masters of Arts, the franchise would be open to Ca tholics. The Government was not pledged to extend the franchise to all the Masters of Arts, and he hoped to hear the opinion of the House on it, when the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Mallow was submitted to the House. The extension of the constituency, as proposed by the Government, was sufficient to have a good consti tuency, and he should certainly support the motion for giving an additional Member to the University. Mr. HENRY GRATTAN objected to giving an ad ditional Member to the University, as tending to keep up that exclusive spirit which had already been so productive of evil—(Loud calls of " Question.") He affirmed that the whole of this arrangement was the result of a plot, and that the Duke of Cumberland was at the bottom of the plot.—(A laugh.) He would say that fearlessly, and whatever Hon. Gentlemen might think of it. The Duke of Cumberland was Chancellor of the University, and that gave him great influence. Lord ALTHORP maintained that the present Bill gave the preponderance to the Catholics in the towns and counties ; and, therefore, in giving an additional Mernbt-r to the Universities, they ought not to be taunted with studying the Protestant interest exclusively. He denied that it would have the effect of keeping up any exclusive feelings. He hoped the original clause would meet with the support of the House, as it was essential that no pro bability of success should be held out to any alteration which would be considered as infringing on the esta blished institutions of the country. Mr. W. PEEL was glad to find that Ministers intended to persevere. He was anxious to support the Protestant institution. of Ireland, which he feared would be severely affected by the Bill.—(Hear.) Mr. WYSE was sorry that a distinction should be drawn by the Right Hon. Secretary between Catholic and Protestant.—(Question.) Mr. CROKER said the distinction referred to by the Hon. Member was forced on the Right Hon. Secretary. No man could have balanc,d the parties more evenly.— , (Question.) Sir R. HERON replied. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw; when there appeared— For the Amendment 97 Against it 147 Majority against the Amendment -50 After some conver.ation, between Mr. Stanley, Mr O'Connell, and Lord Althorp, the Bill was committed pro forma, and the further consideration adjourned till Monday. The Orders of the Day were then disposed of and the House adjourned at half-past Two o'Clock. ST. ALBAN'S ABBEY. (Concluded from The Sun of yesterday.) The Archdeacon WATSON said the parish of St. Alban's, besides a few houses, had only a very small portion of land; they had come forward as far as they were able, and had done all that they could do. He could not conscientiously require them to do more. It %vas however a lar g e county, and there were many wealthy persons in it; he trusted they would come forward and subscribe li berally. In addition to his mite, the meeting should have his most cordial support ; and it was with pleasure he seconded the resolution. The resolutions were carried. A Gentleman, whose name we could not learn, suggested that there should be some time fixed when the subscriptions should be closed. Mr. COTTON thought such a step might operate against the subscription. It would be better to fix some time to have a meeting, when it might be de termined upon. It was ultimately agreed that a meeting should be called the first week in February, to report progress. FRANCIS SEARANCIIE, Esq., the Mayor, said the Abbey was in such a state as to require immediate attention, that a small sum laid out now would be the means of preventing further dilapidation, and wished to know whether the expense of boarding up the aperture should be taken out of the sums subscribed. The Churchwarden said that 601. or 701 would be sufficient. The parish was in the receipt of about 1001. per annum from a charity, and it would increase. He had no doubt but if the build ing was once restored they would be able to keep it in repair. The Earl of VERULAM said there would be a great ma ny subscriptions that could not be returned, even if it did not succeed, and he thought these might be a ppropriated. Mr. COTTLNGIIAM said, he was sorry to make any objection, particularly at a meeting where his Lord ship presided ; but he thought the parish should up"- hold, at least for the present. The sum subscribed by t h e public for the preservation of British archi tecture should be applied for that particular purpose, and that alone. He was fearful, that if any sum was take❑ in the first instance, it would damp the energies of its supporters. He sincerely hoped the case would be taken up by the Government of the country ; it was a national subjtct•--il was truly English ; there was no borrowed plumes on it. No one had a greater vulue for it than himself. lie had visited it for the bundled and first time. lie had never entered within its sacred walls, -but he came out with additional pleasure, and would be proud to cooperate with the present surveyor, Mr. Donaldson, to take the best means for its preserva tion, with Out breaking into the funds proposed to be subscribed by the public. The Dean of CARLISLE said reference had been made to the Government. The timber for the re pAration of •York Minster had been given out of t h e , Dock;yard, and he had no doubt that the same .vould be "done in this instance. The MAYOR then said, at all events he would These undertake, either by private subscriptions in th town, or otherwise, to do what was necessary fo. the present. He should think it advisable for th Committee to meet soon, and use their best exer tions to further the objects of the meeting. It was finally agreed that they should meet next Monday fortnight 'at The Noble ClutrtmAN sa;d it was very important that subscriptions should be put down to-day, whet, the sum of one thousand pounds was immediately subscribed. The thanks of the meeting was proposed to hi Lordship for his zeal and ability in the Chair, am the meeting separated. PORTSMOUTH, JUNE 13. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SlK,—Observing in The Sun of yesterday a paragrapl, stating that the " sign of the Duke of Wellington, in the High-street of this town, had its name painted out, in consequence of the repugnance of persons to deal in a house of that name," I beg, in reply, to say, first, that the name certainly is painted out, but not by my order,nei. ther do I know by whom it was done; and as to the re pugnance of my friends dealing with me, it is untrue, as I flat ter myself, bad as trade is, I have an average share. I avow myself a Reformer, and a stench one too ; but I should have considered myself a simpleton had I caused the name of Wellington to he obliterated from my sign hoard, merely because the Duke of that name is unpopular. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, K. K. CHELTENHAM. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT. ) On Tuesday last a dinner took place at Yearsely's Hotel in this town (Cheltenham), composed of about fifty or sixty of the members of the Blue Club, or Conser vatives as they are called, but for what purpose the meet ing was; no one here knows but themselves. Every thing went off quiet until the evening, when from 50 to 100 boys and girls met opposite the house and shouted. The consequence was, a number of the members sallied from the Hotel, in a state of intoxication, and gave the police charge of the people, which so incensed them that they broke about 13 pains of glass ; the consequence was, some 15 or 20 were taken to prison, while one of the magistrates thought proper to read the Riot Act, and was so steady in that act that he fell down in doing it, and after a few hisses and groans from the people, they all dispersed, and nothing more was the matter.i:Now, Sir, I beg to observe, that these poor fellows, who were in prison all night, have to appear before those very magistrates, and are actually now before them while I am writing this article, to have sentence passed on them. What that may be, I have not yet ascertained, but I think a few remarks from your able pen would tend to soften the sentence of the poor fellows. I had nearly forgot to tell you, that the great Lord El lenborough was in the chair on the occasion. BOLTON, JUNE 12. FROM A CORRESPONDENT. The electioneering parties have begun to assume a more settled appearance here. Yesterday, Colonel Torrens vi sited the principal families in the town, to whom he had letters of introduction, and was very well received. At twelve o'clock he visited the Exchange News-room, and addressed the gentlemen present on the principles of com merce and currency, in an eloquent speech, and which made a great impression in his favour. In the evening he a !dressed at least 10,000 persons from the inn, in two elo quent speeches, in which heentered at great length into his principles. He was very well and enthusiastically re ceived. An operative opposed some of his opinions in an eloquent address. C,lonel Torrens was afterwards re ceived in the large room belonging to the inn, by most of the respectable people in the town. The question of his eligibility was mooted ; and ultimately a requisition, calling upon him to offer himself as a candidate, was pre sented to him. It was numerously and respectably signed; and several influential men, who had not signed it, pro mised him their support. Colonel Torrens accepted the proposal, and declared himself a candidate ; and deli vered, in the course of the evening, several eloquent and argumentative speeches upon various topics, in which be demonstrated, philosophically, the science of commercial intercourse, and the true law of the interchange of the cir culating medium. His election is considered certain, as men of nearly every political party say—" We give Torrens our vote." The irapres,ion be has made is of the most intense de scription, and will not be easily removed. The extreme radical party is behaving, as they always have done in this town, with great fairness. They have met the Colonel in a candid spirit ; and, if he does not go quite so far as they may wish, yet, it is not improbable that they will support him. He is pledged against monopolies —extravagant ex penditure—the tithes—flogging in the army—the Corn Laws—taxation on industry —taxes on knowledge —use less places and pensions —and to that system of commer cial policy which will extend the commerce of the country. He has pledged himself that, if elected, he will resign his seat at any time, should a majority of his constituents be displeased with his conduct. He left Bolton on Monday night, to enjoy the hospitali ties of Mr. Thomas Potter, of Manchester, and left for London next morning, as he was obliged to he present to vote on the Irish Reform Bill on Wednesday night. Ar rangements are being made for securing his return. Mr. Ashton Yates, the other candidate, is also in town, with his counsel, Mr. Edward Rushton, of Liverpool. He commences active operations this week, and with a very fair prospect of success. A great number of the electors wish the town to be represented by Torrens and Yates. DUBLIN, JUNE 11. (FROM A CORRESPONDENT.) Caveat princeps a consiliis mediis." The agreeable intelligence which your columns have been first in communicating to us, for some time past, has not been without alloy within the last few days. It is quite exhilarating to know, that the new Charter of your liberties has received the Royal assent, and that the people of England do not feel their joy complete, till their brethren of Scotland and Ireland are equally secure in the enjoyment of their new Bill of Rights. For centuries past no intelligence has reached our shores capable of dif fusing so much happiness as the two facts just mentioned. We rejoice in the restoration of your liberties—while we feel inexpressible delight at being identified with you in the manner in which the resolutions of the Birmingham Übion, and the Common Council of London, recognise us—the component part of a great nation—as sharers in their' triumph s . Th ese resolut i ons must assure the nation, that the just cause of the people is permanently triumphant. Union is strength ; and now, for the first time, do the people of these islands begin to understand the importance of cementing that union by sympathy of feeling, and an unanimous expression of what they believe to be their mu tual interest. In vain will the disappointment, factious- . ness, and prejudice of party struggle against this commit . - - nion of power and knowledge. Should our gracious Monarch have been influenced not to join his people in their triumph, as some persons apprehend, from the cir cumstance of his not giving the Royal assent to the English Bill in person, he will, no doubt, be disabused of the sug gestions of evil counsel now, as well as on a late occasion, by this demonstration of the people's unanimity ; and, when our new Charter and that of Scotland shall be ready for the Royal assent, we hope his Majesty will join his subjects of the three kingdoms in a public and personal exhibition of the cordiality with which the great work shall have been consummated, and thus remove the only . alloy which is now commingled with their anticipated happiness. These are the sentiments, though not yet pub licly expressed, and the expectations of the people of Ire land, who are determined that Reform shall not be a dead letter, but that it must pervade every department of Church and State. There are active, though silent, pre parations in men's minds in this country for this purpose. But we hope that the perseverance of our good King and his Ministers in the work which they have so auspiciously begun, will prevent th e necess i ty o f a pu bli c exhibition of . the people's wishes. The recen t a ff ra y in Paris a lesson to Kings and S•at es m en o f t h e f a l se policy of trying to t ffeet a great and beneficial Reform, by merely moderate changes in the machinery of Government. Half measures will no longer suffice, and the counsels of temporising par tisans must be avoided. The power vested in the Crown by a recent Act of Parliament to recall the patents formerly granted to the Navy and Victualling Boards has already been acted upon, those Boards having ceased to exist on Saturday last. The duties hitherto performed by them will i n fu ture be conducted by the Lords Commissioners of th e Ad ;::sit them in m ir s alty,who havean g selectedßing civil astheir princip a l o ff icers to affairs of the navy, Capt. WILLIAM SYMONDS, as Surveyor of the Navy; J. 'l'. Barccis, Esq., as Accountant-General of the Navy ; the lion. ROBERT DUNDAS, as Storekeeper-General of the Navy ; JalsrEs MEEK, Esq., as Comptroller for Vic tualling the Navy ; and Sir WILLIAM BURNETT, as Phy sician of the Navy. EXPRESS FROM PARIS. PARIS, TUESDAY, JUNE 12, 4 o'clock p. m. The friends of the Government had abundant caust ;ratification on Sunday in the cordial reception tv which the King met, on the part of the troops of the 1 and the National Guards, at the grand review. Agr number of atilt - eases, intended for the King, were recei by the Adjutant-General, who was riding behind his 11 jesty. The contents of some of them were mere lo effusions; others are said to have expressed sentime equally loyal, as entertained by the civic force, but at same time a hope, that the Government will speedily turn to the constitutional paths from which it has thous proper to depart. The Government journals have le quite silent on the contents of these addressee, and ht only spoken of the review, as having afforded strc proof that the class of the community whose sentime have most value, are ever disposed to raise their ar against all enemies to the order of things which has exi , ed since the last revolution. No one who knows anything of the actual temper of t Parisians, can doubt that many among them are the ads cater of tranquillity at any rate ; but it would be betra ing a gross ignorance as to the general state of feeling, deny that a very large portion of them are decidedly inin cal to every encroachment of prerogative on the part the monarchy, especially of that monarchy which h emerged from the barricades of 1830. The news of the late riots does not seen► to have create any very great sensation in the departments. The particula were every where first received through the medium of tl Ministerial papers, which, in a great measure, have su ceeded in spreading a belief that the riots were the frui of Carlist instigations and intrigues. Under such an in pression, it is not surprising that the rioters should n have met with any sympathy in the provinces. Wb may be thought hereafter, is of little consequence to Min sters who rejoice only in having attained their objet whatever may have been the means used. Had they bee wise enough, however, to advise the immediate convoci tion of the Chambers, instead of placing the capital in state of siege, how different would have been the effet throughout the country, than that which must ever where take place, when the monstrous illegality of th measure chosen comes to be dispassionately considered they would have heard but one voice—that of cordial ail probation. But they have preferred a course which ha very greatly multiplied the internal enemies of King Louis Philippe's Government; and how far they may have con tributed by it to increase the stability of his throne. futur events will show: Meanwhile there is reason to believe that Minister have already begun to perceive the effects of their illega measure. On Saturday a report was very generall; circulated, that on Friday, at midnight, some fifty of sixty prisoners were taken to the plain of Grenelle, ant all shot in a heap, in pursuance of the judgments hastil) pronounced by the military Commissioners, before whom they had appeared. This report produced so powerful an impression throughout the town, that Ministers thought it necessary to publish a formal contradiction to it in the i'Joniteur of Sunday. I really believe that it was false, though nothing was more likely to have occurred, as it was natural enough to expect such wholesale executions as the fruits of the labours of the military Courts. The proceedings, in fact, were only to have commenced yes terday, and time is likely to be allowed between sentence and execution. But the effect of the report proves how easily the enemies of the Government may be increased by the facilities which its unpopular course affords for directing public execration against it. The report has been since circulated with increased industry, and it acquires addi tional title to belief by the fact, which is now quite no. torious, that none of the friends or legal advisers of the prisoners have been suffered to have any access to them, and that the sittings of the Courts-martial are to be secret. It is also said, though Ido not exactly see how the knowledge of such a fact could have transpired, that all the prisoners had resolved to declare to their military judges, that they form illegal and incompetent tribunals, and therefore that they (the prisoners) will not answer any questions put to them. Among the more recent acts of the Government which have undergone the unsparing censure of its numerous ent mien, is a most ill-advised ordinance of the police, en joining all surgeons and physicians, and all lodging-house keepers, to give an account to the police of the wounded men whom they may have been called to attend, or have given shelter to, under rain of forfeiting a sum of SOO francs. Had this order been simply grounded on the ne cessity of bringing to light all who took an active part in the late riots, it would have appeared conformable with the line of policy adopted by the Government, and no one would have been surprised; but a most absurd attempt it made to give a legal colouring to the ordinance, by refer ring to two edicts, the one passed in 1666, and the other in 1788, as authorizing the order it contains. At this rate, every despotic edict of former despotic sovereigns of France should be enforced, in spite of the Charter, which has abrogated every Act emanating from arbitrary rule, and has only acknowledged the famous code of the Impe rial reign. If this new practice of recalling into existence o:d ordinances and obsolete edicts, just as their bearing may happen to suit the purpose of the moment, be allowed to continue, may not the people themselves take it some day into their heads to insist on the complete execution of the law passed in the 50th year of the Republic, which formally expels from France every member of the Bourbon and Orleans families ? You may perceive, from the risk of such an occurrence, the danger of the precedents, which the Ministers are disposed to establish, by the very extra ordinary career in which they have embarked. Much to the credit of the Parisian medical profession, the ordinance relating to them has been answered by a general expression of indignation among them, and by many public and formal declarations that its injunctions will not be complied with. We have no private accounts to-day from La Vendee ; but it is said that Government is in possession of news from that quarter, which it does not wish the Parisian public to be acquainted with. This, as well as the con tinuance of the state of siege, gives occasion for a great deal of discontent. (From Galignani's Messenger.) A letter from Narbonne, dated the 6th inst. says." A ship, commanded by an old Vendean Captain, and having about 400 men on board, besides several well-known ad herents to the fallen family, has been for several days cruizing off the coast of Roussillon and Languedoc. Four brigs of the State are now in chase of her." The Finisterre of Brest announces that the Ex-Peer Marquess de Coislin has been arrested at Vannes. The Garde National du Loiret of the loth gives the following :—" The Procureur du Roi and another magis trate have searched the Chateau de Fontperthuis, the re sidence of the Duke de Lorges, and it is believed made some discoveries. This measure was, it is said, occasioned by the arrest of the Duke's brother, M. de Civrac, and the fact of his two sons having joined the insurgent bands in the west." The Anti de la Charte of Nantes, of the 10th instant, contains the following :—" The great display of forces made by order of our military authorities, and the activity of the troops and National Guards, have checked the in surrection at every point infested by the Chouans. In all directions the rebels are offering to submit. The Depart ment of Deux Sevres has become perfectly tranquil, and not a single Chouan is now to be met with. In La Vendee, whither Diot and Madame Larochejaquelin have e within the last three days gone, with 1,500 Cho uan s, will soon be terminated. This ba n d i s sur rounded on all sides in Le Bocage, and cannot fail to be annihilated very speedily. In the Maine et Loire, the continual attacks of our soldiers, the ardour of the Na tional Guards, the arrest of the principal chiefs, and the measures taken to hem in the bands of Chouans concen trated in the arrondissement of Saumur and Beaupreau, have reduced the Holyrood faction to the last extremity. In the Loire Inferieure, where the Chouans collected at several points amounted, on the 6th instant, to from 18,000 to 20,000 men, only a few hundreds are remaining, and even these have offered their subnaission, as they are afraid of being attacked by our•i n t rep id d etac h ments, t h a t pursue them incessantly. U pon searching the house o f M. de. Kersabiec, at P ont S t. Martin, the Nationa l Guards of Nantes fou n d concealed a saddle, with a rich and magnificent h ous i ng, border,f ri nge,no doubt de s ti ne d f or a high personage; th e b r idl e and stirrups were very splendid. Among othe r o bj ects found there were a white scarf with whitegold and c markedockad e with fle the u rs- de- nti gold l is, m a b n e d r a 3 c i, can several with medals with the effigy of. Henry V., an extensive cor respondence, some arms, such as sword-sticks, sabres or cutlasses, and scarfs, destined, no doubt, for the subaltern officers of legitimacy. The curate of Pont St. Martin was in the chateau. Two batches of bread, and a quantity of meat and other viands, indicated that a numerous com pany was expected." The Courrier de la Moselle of Metz says—" Tranquil' lity has been restored in this town, but the damage occa sioned by the disturbances on the sth and 6th insant is 150,000 fr. At Manville, Moulins, An'', Golzr, and Boulaye; in our department, popular cow; motions have taken place on account of the high price of corn, and the scenes 'of pillage acted at Meiz have bee' repeated." _ The Courts Martial in La Vendee commenced their pro' ceedings some days ago. The Court Martial of tke first oilitary division did not meet yesterday. The previous examination, already commenced will, it is presumed; "4.