The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-10 00:00:00

The Question was ' thin• piit; diet the SPEAKER do now leave the Chair, an d negat i ve d . The CittacCE . l.t.ol t of the, EXCI - Igtlrl'lt. then moved, t h at this, ficuse do to-morrow resolve i ts elf , into a Committee of the whole House. . . Mr. PITT paid, he was extremely glad that an opportunity had -been given to examine into this question ; but it was matter Of regret that Jive at , tention of the House had not been called to this im portant circumstance before any progress whatever had been made in the Bill, for nothing could be more important for that House to attend to than the He- . reditary Revenues of the Crown, and that the more, especially, when the measure brought forward was without the consent of the Crown, an d without an opportunity of discussing the contents o f the Bill. He was very f ar from pledging himself as to the opinion he should have on. this occasion ; but after what he had beard from the Honourable Gentle man belowim, he had great doubts indeed whe ther, if the clauses.in this Bill Were, as he had stat ed them to be, out of another Bill, the objection to this measure would he removed, for they; -only re laced to a part of His Majesty's Revenue, instead . of the. whole : Ifso, the defeft was. radical ; for it was a clause by which a stated sum was to be per petual, and set off againSt a-p .given .va l ue some years ago erpetual Reve nue o f a ' with the increasing prosperity of the general Reve nue of the Empire, for durinhe'happy peri o d o f Hi s Majes t y' s re i gn, g t from that time to the present ; hat Revenue had inereased„to aeveral hundred ousand pounds, and c hi t R e V enue now was much ,hi Cher than the Civil. Lis.t..for ivnich it had been exchanged ; so. that by this enaament to app ro . Priat e in perpetuity the heredi tary Revenues ofParli would be doi ng ne i ther 'More thnor leSsrownthan thisament —to ' abolish - His Majesty's- inherent claim . ' to a peim tient improveable Revenue, and giving for it a fixed ..nnimproveable sum, and that too,. Without any con_ sent or intimation 'on the part of the Crowe. If This was -the case, and nothing had been said to in. • duce him . to doubt it, he Could not help &tying,: it . - was very unfortunate that the attention of t he H ouse had not been called. to it before any progress was . ---,made in the 13ill; for...it was twitter of great im- . -portance, h. on the'constitutional principle, that the . Hereditary. Revenues of the Crown should - not be: taken away by -Parliament without the consent of the, Crbwnthat was a printiple which -it was , topossrble to: he itie wish of any of the King's Mi nisters to neglea-, and quite as little could it be the wisn ofany -Mei-ober of .that House. The question was then put; - tha t t hi s House do .i_.ca.tocmo rroW resolve itself into the . said C omm i ttee . rtied. - : . _ . .. MLLITIA OF-IRELAND. . ago he men. Mr. FOSTER said, that some days „toned a matter of serious, momen t to Irehuid, evich • . was, an apprept.breach.of Faith.uf Parliament with the Militia of. Ireland; In November the Militia, :lett:embodied-in-Ireland by order of the Lord Lieu. tenant,' they were et9hOdieti by the.existing Law ;. hyrkiat c Law each Militiaman ,who provided for his :relatives was to have 25, per week for' his wife, and /,-...fcif his father', inOther,.Or cijkf,' •Vihn were 10. be xnaintained by.hint, In August following,. this Law was.repealed„ by which these as. were reduced tuns . The, lylilitia had been embodied under the faith of the first„ and no compensation was gi yen . to. them for the res t '. and ;..this was a breach of Faith, at which '.ll*:lYfitilia murmured very, much--,—lte "had letters informing him of much discontent upon this-occ.t. sion, pot woold.he.-he,,.answerahte - fiar -the- and q ue nCs, if some measure was nut . taken ; ancLiif taken -at all, it must be taken before the 'Assies; which are now approaching,. otherwise it would be too late.. . . . - . . 111r.-Secretary YORKE state by . .admit t ed the difficulty call dhe -the Right -Ho n .Gentleman . , and he should t attention of the House to it ; but the Chief Secretary -,of the Lord Lieutenant- had brought the 13 ill forward", he had not y e h a d an oppommity -o e . consi4grink that subjea, hut in a few days he. should come,,forward with. an arne-ndment to that Bill, or a separate Billjor that purpose. . ' - • ..- ,- ' -.V.ORIY KILIVARDEN*S FAMILY. : ' ":- • Atr".G"ffo. p,O.NSON BY ask ed the CH iclIC E L LO it" at:lyof the x.cit sca u E R whether' it . was intended to take ~ "ePAci-wards making ,sorne provision for; the. 'anvilY uf.the lateturS IC . / i • RDF N ? it was no w near eight,:montha. since thawtAtragical event hp_ pened,, by which he was destruYed. H 1 .3 family were riot in affluent circurstarices, and- the consideration of the manne r - -in whi c h he camel to his un timely and lamented fate, of his virtues, ,made this a and the recolledion. matte r of great, con cert ,, and he thought that no time should be lost in mak ing an adequate provision . for . his family.; and he Was sure every, loyal man - in the empire would feel the necessity of this .attentiUn on the part of the 'Government. The Cii AIVCELLO ROfthe CI,Ek EUER said, that this stibieft was one on which His Majesty's Servants had hut. one on and . he believed in % t but course of a few day s /House-w ou ld' th e attention of ' the call e d ,to it. DEF ENCE. Mr. P . . NAVAL da gave n ot i ce that he should the , on Thurs-: y next, move for some Informati on relative to State of the Naval Defence of this Country. HIS MAT ESTY'S HtAL-rti. Mr. GREY, "I wish to . say a very few words, on a kitibjeet which app ears to e t be of t he Utmost im portanCe.- Th m f o r attention of th b een necessa r il y called e Hous e h as t hi s, ,d ay , by Witnessing in ihe House of Lord 3 an instance of the personal .eXercise of_ an Aet of Authority from the Kin re nce naturall g.—Sir,' the infe y drawn from that Af.t of Authority, $o exercised, is Undoubtedly of th e Most satisfaCtory It would indeed -be completely saris faEtory to me, if I were assured by the Right • }-I°n• Gentleman opposite to Ifle IMr. ADDING. N), that that Aft was-dont in . Its puoli c i ty indicates, and W full hi att-h; whi c h ithbur which Such an tft of authofity ought.not . to have .been exercised. It Would have been satisfanory to me: if there were . rip t some doubts upon tliat 'stiTcjen—bur under-all the circumstances, considerin g what we know from ,public.reports, arid comparin g them with DeclAra a_ti°ns made in this Houk and other places,_ there '.. ei 'appear to . me to - - be surge doub-t and mystery .130 n this transaCtion,' whith . fettv-e (in ! my mind' . '6ehrirtientra considerable Uneuiritsi and apprehen.; sion. It would be great relief atid stisfaaion me to have this serious apprehension removed by an explicit Declaration from the Minister ; but if not, the . House is placed in a rte araawful'sitUa zior, in,which it will he incumi)ent on us to think what steps it is proper for us to take." Mr. Secretary YoRKE, " I move the Order of the , Day-upon the Volunteer Bill." _ . On the Clause for allowing Adjutants and QuaF, ter-hilasitrs`Fialf-pay, Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that there were many persons who bad never been in the ',Replaps but who, from the excellence of tpeir conduet as. Adjutants in Volunteer Corps vVe(6, he thoughts equally intitled tts. Half-pay. He NVa% of opinion, that it should depend upon the Report of the Inspea ing Field .Officer as to the good discipline of the whether the Adjutant of such Corps shoUld be entitled to such pay or not. In the course of : his. speech, be adverted to • an expression used by• Gen. MAITLAND on a farmer occasion, that there were not six good Adjutants to be found in the whole Army. Mr. Secretary YORKE said, it was necessary to lay down'a general principle with ..resped to the Half-pay to be allowed to Adjutants,. as .other. w is e , persons who aaeti as Adjutants in Volunteer Corps, and who were wholly incompetent, might become entitled to it; and thus saddle considerable expence upon the Public. To this rule however there might he some exceptions, as, if the Inspea.. ing Field Ocer reported the .good qualifications of -an. Adjutant, it certainiy•was intended to represent such case to His Majesty, with a view that such. Adjutant Might become entitled to theallowance in question. General MAITLAND said, the expression he used on a former occasion,,was not that there were not six . good Adjutants to be found in the Attny, - .but that there wele not six new Adjutants to be found Air. NTT said, he agreed in the general outline with respett' to Adjutants receiving pay. He thought hoWever chat where there was .a difficulty in getting goOd •Adjutaras, that Serjeant_Majors from Re . gular Troops might be resorted to as Adjutants for , Volunteer Cops - . He then adverted to, and re.stated his former proposition with respeEt to transferring Officers froin the Line as Field Officers. in Volunteer Corps, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was the strong disposition of Ministers to agree to any thing that could tend to improve the • discipline of the Volunteer Coips, consistent with the nature and principles of the constitution. It was his opinion • that the - ,purpose of the Right Hon. Gentleman. would' be better answered by the appointment of Inspecting Field. Officers who were appointed from Officers of the "Line. He objeaed to the proposition of the Right Hon. Gentleman for the appointment of Field Officers. to Volunteer Corps from . the Line, because the Volunteers should not - be led to suppOse that it was intended to graft upon the system,any thing not congenial to its nature. He knew that a degree of jealousy 'had been cawed in some Volunteer Corps by the appointment of In. speEting Field Officers, because 'they were .liable to a sort of compulsory inspedion by persons receiv. ing ,pay. He was convinced, however, of the necessity of appointing Inspefting Field. - Officers, and that the Volunteers could not be an efficient_ force without them ; but if Field-Officers from the Line were introdUced into the Volunteer Corps, it would necessarily create jealousy. It had been made part of the proposition, that Field. Officers from the Line should not 'besappainted to Volunteer Carps without ' the consent of the Commanding. Officers.; but this was placing a .Commanding Officer in a situation of great difficulty and delicacy. If he 'recommended the appointment of a Field Officer from the Line, it might he considered as a confession of his own in. sufficiency ; whilst, if he refused to assent to a re commendation of that nature, he might be liable to censure—add to this, there were many Volunteer Corps which already had the benefit of the a— sistance of Military Officers of great experi ence, either. as Commandants, or as holding Commissions in such Corps. At the same time it was his wish that it should be a part of the instruc tions from the Commander in Chief to the General, Officers commanding Districts, to spare Field Offi cers from the Regulars, wherever it can be done, in order to perfect the discipline of the VOlunteer Corps. . 1-ie:repeated that .the objed of the Right Hon. Gen tleman was answered by the appointment of InspeCt•- • ing Field Officers, and 'also by the appintrnent from the Line of Adjutants and.Serjeant Majors. Mr. PlTT.s . aid, as. to the appointment of In spetting FieldOfficers,•it was obvious that could not interfere with his -proposal -of appointing Field Offi. cers from the Line to assist in disciplining Volun teer Corps, as the persons appointed Inspecting Offi. cers held the rank of Lietitenant..Colonels---whilst . he proposed to . appointlersems, probably Captains, from Half-pay:- At feast they might try whether any such persons itighi be obtained; at any rate, the two descriptions of persons Were wholly distinet, as 00 one Wits appointed an. Inspefting Officer who had not been a Field Officer in the Army, whilst he proposed to take Field Ufficers 'for Volunteers from those in the Line - Whn held Subaltern Commissions. The Right. Hon. 6 5 entlernan had said, That such 'a •meastkrvwoold'he likely to create jcalbusk : he was sorry to hear ii, hut certainly the. appointment of Inspeeting Field Officers was not sufficient to render Volunteer Corps - in any degree well 'disciplined.-- Some of those Officers had half a County to attend to, And he would ask, whether they could in that case do much more than relate what they had beers told by others, with rasped to the dis. cipline of Corps, instead of being intimately ac quaintml with it them Selves. now, how ever told, that because persons had been appointed to see that instructions had. been given to Vo. lunteer Corps, that it was unnecessary.to appoint. - persons to instruct them i he could nottonceive.this to be very Conclusive reasoning. He did. not be:. - lieve that aur•jealousy wool( be eXcited by.tf i c pointment of Fi e ld Officers of the.desnriptio n hehad - allutieti to ;. it woultiii‘ila .o rather: l c ie ers 7 .4. us h e, ( l ). f . b wyte h estiapep: -pointing i ns p e U.ing riot to the Commanders of the Regiments. Add to - this, that Inspecting Field OfficerS .were: appointed • by a compulsory regulation, whilst all he proposed was tu proti4e' Field , °filters where it was request. ~.• • . . . e , lby the Commitilirtg Officers of:Ctirps; therefore there was still leis cause for .jealousy,, • Another griend of obj;:ion was,. that Commanding Officers wouid he plac:d in a situation of great delicacy; i;e did =not see the force of this objeftion. Sup_ pose the Commanding Officer were to recommend the appointment of 4 Field Officer from the Line to his Corps, he would only indicate that he was a man of totiMon sense,' and that he was more anxious to do hii'duty than to be aftuated by. trifling vanity; on the other side, jibe declined such accommodation, • Ile might be liable to censure, for not doing that which'he ought todo.':As to any objeetion of eCo, nomy, the saving whiCh might •arise from not pm.. suing the regulations he proposed, ought not to:he put in competition with the . advantages which would arise from its adoption. For these reasons he was still inclined to persist in urging the propositions which he had before made. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEOUER said, that if the description of persims alluded to by the Right Hon. 'Gentleman were appointed; they might assume an, importance which would be inconsistent with the general system of the Corps. He instanced the Volunteers of Ireland, who had had .no such Officers, and who had displayed the best discipline, as well as the greatest courage•antl.zeah• GeneraI_TARLETON bore testimony to the ex. cellence of the discipline of the Volunteer Corps of Ireland. General' LOFTUS objeBeti to Officers being sent from .Camps or other military stations in the hour of danger to discipline Volunteer Corps. The CHANCELLOR of :he EXCHEQUER said, his idea was, that such assistance shotild be at the discretion of the General 'of the Distril. Mr. PIT!' said, that in the Maritime Distrias such assistance might he provided, .but with respea to the Corps in the interior, they. shbuld be assisted in discipline by Officers from-balf-pay. . . . Mr. W. 15ICKENSON observed . that there: must be good, Officers to make good Soldiers.--- 7 . As to economy,. it was not a question of econotnizing money, -but the blood and lives of the people ;- it. was necessary. to have good Officers to ensure disciplintt, and it , was necessary to have discioline in infer to elsure success ; and he would ask Whether defrats were considered as cheap articles by ,he. piesent Administration ? If an Enemy were to land, the Country might have reason to curse such parimonv. If the Bill now before the House was made any thing of, it would be made by the Minority, and not by the Mijority ; for if it had pas , ed as originally brought in, it would have been one of the strong instances of the weak conduct of a feeble Administration. Mr. HIL EY ADDINGTON s-aid, he would leave to the decision of the House and the Public the Elon. Gentleman's charge of Economy against the present Administration. He obje&ted to any mea sure for the introduaion of Field Officers from the Line into Volunteer Corps, as it would tend to create dissensions amongst the Officers and Privates of these Corps. •Mt. WINDHAM wished to understand precisely the meaning of his Right Hon. Friend'i (Nit. Pyri.) proposition, as he could not consent, to rob the Line of Officers, in order to' di . scipline Volunteer Corps. Mr. PITT said, his proposition was to rake Of ficers from the Half-pay, where they were useless, and'to make them useful by Contributing to disci_ pilot Volunteer Corps. Mr. W. WiliNE deprecated the economy of i7l /1i:• nesters, as its only objet'} was to diminish theirex penees, which were to come before Parliament, whilst a greater weight fell upon the People. Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE adverted to the erec tion of B:taCons, and instanced one in the West Riding of Yorkshire, guarded by four persons, one of ‘sh , ni had only one leg, another had only ,one, arm, the third had lost the roof of his mouth, and the fourth was notoriously, drunken, and each . of these were paitiliall-a-goioea per Mr. .Secretary YORKE said, that Beacons had been erected in the. West Riding of Yorkshire with out consulting the General of the Distrid,. Lord Mulgrave. Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE said, they were ereaed by order of the General of the Districa. Mr. • Secretary YORKE said, he had understood the contrary. After some farther ObserVations from Lord TEMPLE, Sir WM. MI,I f NER) Sir 'HENRY MILD NI,Ay, and other Nlembers, the Clause was agreed to. On the Clitise relating to the. recovery of Fines and Penalties, Mr. PITT sUggested thßt it would be better to give an option in case of non-payment, either to levy the fine by distreiS, or to inflid imprisonment for two or three days or .a week, as the distress might be injurious to the family of the person dis. tressed upon. Mr; G. VANSITDART was for extending the Im. prisonment to . a . fortnight. -The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the ImprisOnMent oftthe. Individual would be more injurious to his family than levying the fine by dis: tress. Mr. Ptrr explained, that the idea Was, to vest a discretionary power in the Magistrate, to imprison, suppose for a week., in the default' Of distress. Sir R. BUXTON strongly recommended the al lowing a certain number of days, at the expiration of which, if the penalties were nut paid, the Magi_ strate should have the power-of commi'ttini, in the case of default. Mr. CU R 0 0 , Ell sa id a few words .- Mr. S T CMG ES BOURNE Triterided, that: the optional power proposed to - given to the Magistrates, proceeded on the mosehumane and IL heral principle that it was possible to intreduce into a case of pecuniary. penalty. "t Mr. BURL AND proposed the introduaion of a Clause, in subst4ii e enacting, th4t 111 , se - of a rc fusal ounegied to 'pay the fine after a given num. tor rof days.(fiAte was proposed in the first instance), it should then be lawful for the Aigjstrate to com. mit, Fact. Mr. 110 MOUSE spoke shartly in support of the Chancellor of the 'Exchequer''s idea in fa'vour of the mode' of ilistrtsY, as imptisonrito,'nt would evidently prevent the individual from earning the accustomed provision for hit finniiy, Mr. WHITBREAD made a variety of otiserm Lions ors thz part' of clio BAH under discuslion : he tv*:hclined to - - - purse but would not resort to iirfprtsontrierti — el, teiSt '.here it was indis'pencably proceeding of distress he th . ought car=e of ex .r- oppression-; bOt as some principle c)f must obtain, he thought the option ....of distrt'ss _ _ or imprisonment Should - be given. With respea to the Application of these penaltie., they were to go to the common f43nds of the different Corps lot defraying the necessary ekoences,• &c; But in Ob., serving upon this point. •he . must • repeat what he had said thereon on a former occaio ,, ; he tl'inght it would be a - sounder and More Manly policy•to come forward ati once and provide lei- the payment of such expenses out of the public 'purse ;as he -predi:ie!d, - for want of-certain and unfailing funds, the greater number of the Corps would fall to pieces and cease to exist. This he said, to a..cetz'ain degree, was exemplified by the instance of one of the City Corps, where, out of the requisite sum of about i he understood 7 or 80001. or some very large sum remained due. Several Corps were destitute of the most necessary articles. It was now of little consequence, whether the plan of subscription was originally a wise Measure. He thotiglit them, now at least, very improper ; they were providing for a permanent system in the Bill. As _'that was. the eve, let them do it with their eyes open, let them nor blink the genuine question.; they should contemplate die danger as it ought to be viewed. There were many articles of expense absolutely necessary to he in curred in., respect of the Volunteer Corps : Keeping.: the arms clean and in repair, • was one of t the principal items ; the 'payment "of the Drummers was another indispensal - k r eq uiu site.: he wished' to know wheihrr that was to be provided for.out of any particular• Fund ? There was more money thrown away in respoa of the Vo.. lurneers sl ice their institution than would set on fOot an immense Regular Force : ler the private. subscriptions and annual contributions be calculated, and see what an immense aggregate they would amount , . to ! The present system was on- of the most profuse and extravagant that was ever yet broached. One or two Members rose, and expres.ed theii sentiments, that what Mr. WHITI3IIEAD was aZI:. vancing was not in order. • Mr. 11 1 111TBRE.4D resumed.—Whar he said was striCtly in order, and adiianced then with a view to save the time of the House ; the penalties were ap. plicable to the funds, Isis observations were theref o re in order. As to the qaestiop, he reprobated the tarter want ofecouumy in the system. A large regular force might have over and over again be put in . :kill - tick for less money. In process of time the preSen't sources would fail, indivtduala would evcts , year become more weary or less able to pay the contri butions. Speakinginore immediately to the point in question, were the alternative of imprisonmen't 're solved on, he should prefer the shortest possible periud. Mr. PAUG WAN thought it ineombent "ors him traexplain ; that of-the. Corps which Ite c'nceiv&l the Hon. Gentleman to allude to, he 'wits himself a Member—that so far from the Carps being in'debt, it possessed , considerable • funds ; and - that •sii' far from, being discontented, they we're the first to' offer.permanent service. . . . The discussion. continued. .Messrs. HOBHOUSP f 13.NARD, YORKE, and- BURL-AND Ittickei, in the c ourse of which, Mr. Secretary Yott.KE -piorsed the introduainn of some words, to render it corred,. and'suitable to the Clause in the Bill. Mr. H. LASC ELL ES thought that the SCCEI - of fines should he prevented, as they might run up to an amount that might impede the resigna tion of a Member when he should so determine. Mr. PITT referred. the . Hon. Member to a patii ih , ticular part of the Clause, where the case was pro• vided for by the words. . . Mi. ROSE expressed his opinion, that the Ma. gistrates should be vested with the power of emir- Inittingto,the nearest, place of confinement. - The Clause, as amended, was then agreed to. Some discussion then took place, tespening a subsequent provision in the Bill, similar to the pre, ceding one, in some of its ,effetts, but principally affeaing a superior class of individuals. s_ The Gen, tlemen who delivered their opinions were principal ly Messrs'. WHITBREAD, CURWEN, Sec. YORKE, BRAOGE, THOMPSON, and Wm. DUNDAS. It Was contended on the part of those who supported the Bill, that those persons who were able to pay, b ut who from obstinacy, or other motives, did .not choose to pay, should be decidedly compellable ; and with respea, to those, the option of distress or imprisonment, was _proposed to be left. Mr. FOX objeded to the principle, as regulated by the provisions of the Bill. Though the Mem bers had agreed to the payment of certain Fines; they had no idea .of eventually incurring a capital punishment; by such a regulation, the Volunteer was put in .a different situation from that in which he considered himself, when making his agreement, Mr. W. DUNDAS observed, that if the Volun., teer agreed - Zoiltz fide to pay certain fines, he was bound to male them good, or he had agreed.to no. thing. , ' Mr. PITT oberved, that .a degree or comput_ l ion; case under discussion was evidently necessary. They should recollea that' the right ( 1 ,4 1 the Volunteer to resign was admitted, in case liO l was not satisfied with the . regulationi.-- Thediscipline of the Corps was surely necessary to be :preserved ;. and farther, the'fines arose out of rep. lations agreed to by the jodividuals themselves. The principle was n: new to this Mt. In the original Ad. a provision to that eftstt Obtained, brit it was not rriudified by the optional power:- The' points at issue resolved into two questions t the !first, whether in a default of distress, pro- , ceedings should be.. had against the persOn .the latter was certainly one in analogy to* the taw the Country ; and the . secnnd, which involved the only new point,., was, whether an alternative of suNetting the Individual ,to:inprisontnent should be allowed, and that this'',avass the mere lenient of the two, he thought had been‘elearly establiShed.--i After considering the topic a little farther, he ex pressed his concurrence in the restilivion for allow ing the optional power. , v Some further Clauses and Pr01.491004s of the 'Bill were then agreed to without c , bservat, when it was agreed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.