The Sun. — London, England, 1832-05-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. ROUSE OF LORDS, 21/..4r 18. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. The Duke of Buccenucti and Lord ELDON preseniee petitions from Dalkeith, and certain Protestants of Men ebeeter, against the new plan of Education in Ireland. THE REFORM BILL. The Earl of ROSEBERY presented a petition from Haddinoton in favour of the Reform Bill. Similar eta titions were presented from Burton•on-Trent and Wigton, en the question of whether the Zemindar Nozeed Bill „m ou nt h e postponed iii Thursday next. The Archbishop of YORK •aid that it had been his iiitention !sat night, as well known to several of thei Lordships, to have made a b,i f statement to this House of some eircurnitant es personal to himself and connected with the proceedings on the Bill of Relorm ; but which the vier:epee and excitement which so unfortunately prevailed in that House—( R ear )._ the debate—if debate it cool.: be called—(Hear, hear)— aaot followed the declaration of the Noble Duke, a violence and excitement which in the course of forty years, during trhieh he had hail the honour of a seat in that House, he had never witnessed, and which, God for hie lhe >ie live to witness again, had deprived him of the power to stidrese their Lordship when the conduit, and motives of public men were so unsparingly assailed, and so industriously and mischievously the subject of the grossest falsehoods and misrepresentations.—(Cheers Iron, the Opposition.) He feat that it might he necessary for him to say a few words in explanation of the view which he had taken of the question of Reform, and of the course which it wan his intention to pursue—(Hear, hear, 'asar)—iii the further proceedings upon it. When the former Bill of Reform was before their Lord ships in the last seotion of Pediment, he was necessarily ',prevented from attending in his place in. the House by the interference of various dioc.san duties which be had to discharge in Yorkshire, at that particular timsn ,inties which bail ever appeared to him paramount in importance to any other duties which might attach to a Bishop in his legislative capacity, where neither the interests of relit ion, nor the rights and duties of the clergy, are the immediate subjects under the consideratien of Parliament. Had be been present at that period he should have given '..is vote for the second reading of thi,t Bill, and simply on !;.is principle, that it was a Bill which, applying directly and especially to the constitution of the House of Com mons, had been sent up to their Lordships by a very large majority of that House, which had the prepoude rence of public opinion and public feeling in its favour, and the object of which was avowedly sanctioned by the Crown. It?. said, then, that he should have voted for the second reading of that Bill, on the plain principle that the provi sions of any Bill so introduced into that House, and so advocated out of it, were entitled to the fullest considera tion of their Lordships.—( Hear, hear, hear.) On the very mine ground ant on the very same reason he g ive his vote for the second reading ..f the present Bill, with a Min and sincere purpose of afterwards supporting in Com mittee its three essential principles of enfranchisement, disfranchisement, and an extension of the suffrage. Not withstanding the order in which he had enumerated theme principles, he was not the less prepared to support to the fullest extent the principle of dis franchisement, but he bad ever considered that enfran chisement was the true and proper ground on which to rest disfranchisement. It was his opinion that enfranchise ment should precede disfranchisement, and he had, conse quently, the other night supported the proposition of the Noble Baron (Lyndhurst), not at all anticipating •s Hear," from Lord Grey)—the eflect of the decision on that point. For be was well assured that the Noble Earl, end he alone, could conduct this difficult business.— f Hear. ) Of the propriety of a very extensive enfranchise meut, the intercourse which for 24 years he had continually kept up with the oreat manufacturing towns in the Wes Ridiug of York, afforded him abundant proofs He re teriod principally to those of Leeds, Bradford, Halifax, and Huddersfield. He had received (their Lordships would be sorry to hear) a letter from the Lord Mayor of York, ac qti him that he had found it necessary to call Kt the aid of the military to protect his (the Arch bishop's) house and property, at Bishopsthorpe, from the assaults of a mob that had assembled evidently for the purpose of destruction. Through the exertion*, however, used, little mischief had been done. But yester day morning military were stationed in his house and stables. The Duke of RUTLAND, after apologising for tres passing on their Lordship.' time, said that he would not mow take the liberty of addressing them, if he did not think that in the present posture of affairs, the individual ~pinions of every Peer ought to be, if possible, recorded, and sent down to the latest posterity, for good or evil, on the page of our country's history. He considered that the crisis had arrived when the boasted stability of our Constitution should rise superior to the influence of mis guided policy and popular violence. Much of the future prosperity of the empire was identified with the circum stances of the present moment. He had attended most anxiously to the declarations made by his Noble Friends, the illustrious Duke and the Noble and Learned Baron 'sat night, and, after hearing them, his mind was deeply impressed with two considerations—unmeasurable rati o...pie to the gracious Prince now upon the Throne, who, to a moment of more trying difficulty than had perhaps, evert et been experienced by sovereigns, had displayed a hrinnesit and derision which proved him a worthy member ei the illustrious race from which lie sprung.—(Cheers.) There was wanting the utterance of one moriosyllahle, and their Lordships' House had ceased to he a delibe,ative _e-embly.—(Cheers.) He, therefore, begged to express 't.r , humble gr ititude to his Majesty, and to observe that st events, let the consequences be what they might, the evening of his Majesty's days would be cheered by the proud recollection of having acted as be did.—(Loud cheers.) ty the close_ of that illustrious Prince's life be like the evening of a Mi Isummerolay, that glides away in plea santness and serenity. The next feeling he had enter tained was a storm of the greatest admiratien of the conduct of the Noble Duke—(Clieers.) He could not hut feel time greatest admiration when he reflected on that Noble Duke's eonduct, and considered the obloquy to which be had been exposed by an ungrateful country.—(Cheers.) If would he the natural desire of the Noble Duke, after all the time he sad devoted to the service of his country, to seek repose at a calm fireside; but when he now saw his conduct, under all the circumstances, he could not but feel the utmost admiration.—(Cheers.) He would new state in the face of their Lordships anti the country, what he had often and often stated in private, that there was no man in the kingdom whose (pinions, if he (the Duke of H.) had not an opinion of his own, he would unhesitatingly engraft upon his mind ; and, on the present cec:ision, the conduct of the Noble Duke demanded his warmest praise—his unlimited admiration. On the subject of the Bill itself, he svialied to observe, that although he opposed it, he did not mean to arrititn the motives of those who introduced it. He would nut deny that their motives might be honourable, pure, patriotic. It was not their motives, but their measure he condemned. He could assure the House, that, to a temperate and judicious measure of Re form he would not be opposed. He was opposed to the first Reform Bill because its consequences, he con ceived, would be mainly to affect the great institutions of the country—(Cheerot.) He had compared the pre sent Bill with the termer, he saw no material alteration in it, which should induce him to give his support to the one rather than to the other.—(Hear, bear.) He conceived that, by an extensive giant of political power to classes which hod never before enjoyed i , and by depriving others of that power, who had enjoyed it far centuries, by the de structien of vested rights, and summoning of other rights arbitrarily into existence, a fatal change would be made in cur constitutional policy, and consequences would ensue, the dread extent of which no human sagacity could fore see.—CCheers.) He was far from denying to the people their just right of assembling together for the purpose of expressing their honest opinions on any point connected w i t h t h e p u bli c good ; and, moreover, he firmly believed there was not on the face of the ghbe a nation possessing wire , 00ci sense and discrimination than tee British na tion ; bet 'Re doubted whether the assemblies to whieh h e aLnded were capable of discussing, in a temperate and use ful manner, those points to which they now addressed themselves—at a time when popular excitement prevailed, and when those classes were led astray by the Jima of de eigning people, who had far other objects from the oaten siole ones they set forth.—(Cheers.) lie believed, that although the tone and temper in which the discussions were carried on in these assemblies were highly reprehensible, yet he considered that the same feverish agitation did not now exist throughout the country as at the period when the original neferm Rill was debated. Sure he was that the country was then in such a state—he meant in October— that tie greatest misery which could happen to the country would have been the passing of such a measure. Certain was he that the future historian of our land might accurately de scribe the state of public feeling in our country in words such as those applied by a beautiful historian of. old to the state of puttlic feeling in Rome at the close of the first Jugur than war. " Sed plebes, incretlibile memoratu est, quan. turn int -nta fuerit, quantaque vi rogationem jusserit, decreverit. voiuerit, magic edio nobilitatis cui main ills poranatitur, quArn curs. reipublicte. Tanta libido in ' , iambus erst."—lt was some consolation that the measure was not passed at that period. Still he apprehended great darnr?r from the discordant interests it would create, and w o u ld b e so difficult to reconcile, and which L.e. feared would la: the foundation of interminebl discontent. He was ashamed to detain their Lordships s hing, when he knew it was his duty to economise their rime as much as passible.--.(Hear, hear.) But before le resumed his seat he was anxious to express the warmes; abniration of the conduct of the House during its ardume siFt;nga. He had even been proud that his lot had beet. so cat in life as to have given him th , honour of sitting among their Lordship. ; arid if such had been his opinim luring his whole life, how much greater must it h. now, wh• n hp had witnessed the conduct of thst House, under circumstances of sub infinite ernbarass Tient? It put him in mind of an anecdote in anciere istnry. N-ble Duke then proceeded to say, that l%then a tribune of the Roman people proposed a law ric the division of lands taken from the Chnbri, the passed the Commons by a large majority, and the Senate were called upon to swear to its observance. All consented except Meteilus, who refused. stating that " to Jo wrong was always base ; to do right, when there was no danger, was common ; but to do right, when it was attended with danger, was deserving of al! honour."— He knew that he was a.ltiressing a Senate, in which tile character of Metellus was the leading feature. Their Lordship, in dealing with that momentous question, had kept the even t, hour of their way, unmoved upon the one hand by fear of popular clamour, and unsedueed on the other hand by the meed of popular applause. The House hail not been seduced by that popular ap plause, which was at he , t but a fleeting possession. It might spreed its gaudy pinions, and shed down its mere tricious light upon the tenants of the opposite benches; but the majority of the House were well content to hold their wry undazzled by its specious splendour.—(Hear.) Their Lori:ships had shown in their conduct, ;hat they have been guided only by twn con•iderations—the main tenance of our noble Constitution and the real interests of the country.—(Cheers.) So always be that House dis posed, was Ids fervent prayer. In conclusion, he expressed his strong hope that the expectations of those who had introduced the Bill would be realised, anti that it wouhl, in f.ct, promote the good of the country.—(The Noble Duke was frequently, during his speech, inaudible at the bar.) The Earl of HAREWOOD was anxious to ask a ques tion of the Noble Earl opposite, whether the negotiations which were being conducted yesterday, had been brought to a termination, and whether Ministers were to continue in office. Earl GREY—It has been always my desire, my Lords, as far as pes-itile, to every proper qeeation, to furnish the information that is required, and more especially when those questions are put in that courteous manner by which the question of the Noble Earl has b. en charac terized. My Lords, I certainly, if that question had not been put, should have been prepared to state to your Lordships this day the result, I will not say of " negotiations," I am not aware that that word was fitly used, but of the communication which since his Grace, the Duke of Wel lineton, gave tip the commission with which he was intrusted to form a new Administration, has passed be tween his Majesty and toe. My Lords, I have now the satisfaction of informing you that that communication has been brought to this result, that in consequence of his Majesty's desire of hiving the Reform Bill carried, and in consequence of my seeing now those grounds of confident expect ition—(loud and continued cheers)—which enable me to consider that pledge that I gave yesterday to the House of not continuing in the Administration unless I had, what appeared to me, a sufficient se curity for passing the Reform Bill now on your table, unimpaired in its principle and essential provisions ;—in consequence, I say, of finding myself now enabled to state that such is my confident expectation— (Cheers)—and having received his Majesty's commands graciously expressed to that effect, his Majesty's present Ministers continue in their present office. My Lords, I shall not advert to any thing on this oc casion unpleasant that has passed. I have felt, in common with the `alight Rev. Prelate who has expressed himself on this occasion, deep regret at much that has been said ; hut I think I may with considerable confidence throw myself on your Lordships to say whether I personally have done any thing to rovoke it—(Cries of Hear, hear)—nay, whether when exposed to a series of personal attack., and such, as I believe, have not been usual in this House, I have done any thing not characterized by proper feeling if that yeas necessary to vindicate my own character, and the si tuation I hn!d. To these occurrences, then, regretting them deeply as I do, I shall not recur. I trust that the pro ceedings of this measure will be conducted with calmness. I fe e l the necessity that it should be conducted with calm ness, to avoid furnishing any materials for an increase of that irritation which unfortunately has attended its progress.—(Hear.) I feel also the urgent necessity of speedily passing this measure, in order that the country may be restored to that quiet and content which are necessary for its peace and prosperity.--(Loud cheers.) To these objects my efforts shall be directed with the same spirit and feeling which have characterized my conduct. And I trust we may look forward to a speedy period when this question shall he settled, when all these agitations shall hare subsided, when there shall be increased contentment, and with that, all those means of prosperity which this noun try has, shall be enjoyed, and for which there wants only po litical Reform, to bring to them full maturity.—(Cheers.) My Lords, having stated this, as I believe there is no mo tion before the House, 1 now give notice that on Monday next I shall move that this House resolve itself into a Committee on the Reform Bill.—(Great applause.) The Earl of HARE\VOOD haring heard the Noble Lord's reply, should now take this opportunity of stating what course he should think it pro per for him to adopt in the Committee. He had not consulted with any Noble Lord. lie was connected with no party. He stood there to think and act for him self, as he had ever done on all critical points.— As the House had been told yesterday that the continuance in office of Ministers dependdd on the power they might ob tain for carrying the Reform Bill, of course that was to be un derstood as a power to be obtained front the creation of Peers, or from the individual pleasure of Noble Lords on the Opposition side of the House withdrawing their future opposition to it. Their Lordships bad been informed that Ministers were now virtually in possession of that power ; and this was the situation in which the House now stood. If the exercise of the King's prerogative was to take place, there would be an end to the independence of the House of Lords—au end to the independence if not to the existence of the Crown, and undoubtedly an end to the liberty of the subject.—(Loud cheers on the Opposition side.) The question for him (Earl of H.) therefore to consider was, whether he was now to add his mite, which was calculated to overturn for ever the independence and power of the House of Lords. He had opposed the second reading of the Bill, because he thought ir too extensive. He had opposed it in the Committee on the same principle, hut he would now withhold further opposi tion to the Bill for the express reason of preventing a greater calamity were the opposition persisted in. Though he took this line of conduct, it was to be understood that he :ook it by sbrer compulsion ; and even in adopting 'his course, he thought that he might hid farewell to the freedom of debate in the House of Lords, as be did not apprehend he would ever again be able to utter one indepedendent word there. Let those who had been instrumental in bringing this affliction on the country, be responsible fur their acts to the nation when the nation came to its proper senses ; and he really did not think that tire nation could be restored to its proper senses while the Bill continued be fore the House. Under such circumstances he did not intend to do any thins further to impede the pro ore-s of the measure. The Earl of WINCH ILSEA—He could not give his assent to a Bill which would overturn the balance of the Constitution. He rose principally to call the attention of the Noble Earl to the different malignant, false and treason able articles, which had appeared in the leading j:;urnals during the list fur days, and particularly those on the character of the Queen. The LORD CHANCELLOR slid that it would very ill become them, sitting as criminal judges, who migtit be called upon to decide on the supposed libels to which the Notde Earl referred, to decide upon their prosecution. The Earl of WINCHILSEA replied, that these cases were not likely to come before their Lordships. He did not Want any one to tell him what was treason. - He could not give his assent to a Bill which would i)vertarn the bslance ieween the three powers of the State. Ilia conduct in that House had never been influenced by private party or factious feelings, but be had to the best of this judgment done th.it which would most promote the welfare of the country ; hat if the independence of this House war to be de- stroyed, it seemed of little consequence to him whether it was by overawing them with threats, or by such a creation of Peers as would make this House a Picked Jury, as much a rotten borough as of the oecayed places the Noble Earl was n?ut to destroy. When the delusion which now exited, and which had been encouraged by the most pru i fligate Press which had ever disgraced a free country, Was dispelled, as it soon would be, the country would see ,:or, grossly it had been imposed upon by the pro !riders of this measure. He would now, however, sluice the Noble Earl was at the head of the Govern- address hint in bis private character as an E.,glisb ci: , z-2u—a character which he (Lord Wincbilsea) 4,oped still to bepreui to bear. The Noble Earl, now chat he was a Nlinistar of the Crown, WA! bound to stand arward to protect tie Sovereign front the most malign to else, treacherous, and treasonable accusations which eve. legraded a free country, and which had appeared ir. , he leading Journals during the last three or four days. Re had no doubt that the time of the Noble Earl ha, wen too busily occupied during that petiod for him t. sad the daily papers, either on one side or the other ; butt he eall-d upon him to cast hi 3 eyes over those malignant, felse. and unprincipled attacks which have been levelled ageing , our gracious Queen, who for her many virtues was justly en titled to the respect of ever y friend of virtue. .The LORD CHANCELLOR seid, that considerine the feelings under which the Noble Earl addressed the House, it was, perhaps, natural that he should forget tt e peculiar functions of their Lordships in respect to the subject matter referred to. He, as well as a Noble Lore who spoke lent night, had called open the Government to inatitute prosecutions for certain libels, or supposed libels, which bad appeared in the daily Press. He cautiously owed the word "supposed," for if that advice were complied with, they might have to sit 33 criminal joulges op.'s the very question of whether these publications were libels or not? He considered it grossly contrary to their Lordships' functions as Judges, previously to moot the question of whether such supposed offences should he prosecuted or not. The Duke of NEWCASTLE—He had himself suffered so much, both in person and property, from the effects of these libels, that he had a good right to say that it was net a safe system to pass them over with impunity. With regard to the twasure of Reform introduced by his Ma jesty's Ministers, he declared that he wee absolutely asto nished at the advice given to create a sufficient number of Peers to carry the measure. He thought that it could only be intended as a threat to overawe the House. But it was fitting that the matter should be brought to a point, and in order to do so, be would take an opportunity of submitting a motion to the House, having for its object to prevent the creation of Peers; and then it would be seen whether their Lordships would tolerate so execrable a pro ceedieg. He would state the particular nature of this motion, and the time at which he would submit it to the House, as soon as he should be satisfied that the present Ministers were thoroughly settled in their places. Lord WHARNCLIFFE—The Noble Eal behind him (Harewood) had crated what course he intended to pursue in regard to the present measure in its future stages ; hut before he (Lord Wharncliffe) would stare what course he meant to pursue, he thought it necessary that he should have some further information from the Noble Earl as to the exact position in which the House now stood. Were they to have a new creation of Peers for the purpose of carrying this measure, or were their deliberations upon this Bill to be car ried on under the threat of a creation of Peers? Or did the Noble Earl mean by the expression, that he haul now a reasonable prospect of carrying the Bill unmutilated. refer to his Living authority to have a certain nurnluer of Peers created for that purpose? He put that question be cause he was anxious to know in what situation the House stood. He lid not mean to put that question in any dis courteous manner, but he was anxious to know if the Noble Earl's hope of being able to carry the measure was bounded on his power to create a sufficient number of Peers for that purpose. He, therefore, asked the question, in order to know what was the situation of the House before he made any declaration as to the course be intended to , I pursue. The Earl of RADNOR—It was perfectly justifiabl e and proper in the Noble Baron to ask for an explanation of anything that was stated in the House, but, at the same time, he protested against that mode of questioning a Minister of the Crown, and a PrivyCouncillor, as to what he had or had not power to do. He did not understand on what ground it could be expected that a Minister should answer such questions, when, in answering, he might perhaps betray the counsels of his Sovereign, which he was bound to keep secret. They had heard last night explanations given of what passed between his Majesty and his Privy Councillors, without any intimation that his Majesty's permission to give such explanations had been asked for and obtained. He had heard it stated as a matter of deubt whether Privy Councillors were justified in exposing what had passed confidentially between themselves and his Majesty, even when they had his Majesty's per mission to explain, since they were hound by oath to keep his Majesty's counsel. But certainly he had never heard that they were at liberty to explain with out having obtained his Majesty's. permission. But what did the Noble Baron call upo❑ the Arable Earl at the had of the Administration to say? And what w,s the reason assigned by the Noble Baron for putting the question ? Only to know on what footing he himself and the House stood. Why, the Noble Baron stood exactly on the same f.oting as they all stool, and it was for him to exercise his own discretion and judgment as to what he should do—(Hear, hear, on the Ministerial side)--and that without having his opinions varied, or altered, or in fluenced by the consideration of whether new Peers were to be created, or any thing else, there was no ground what ever for putting the question. The Noble Bit-on and those who thought with him would act as they pleased. Some or them said that they acted by compulsion. He really did not know what that compulsion was—(Hear) — or how their independence had been in the least infringed upon. They said that their independence would be in fringed upon by the creation of Peers. By the letter, as well as by the spirit of the Constitution, the King had the right to create Peers whenever he, acting on the responsi bility of his Ministers, thought that the interests of the country required it, and, if so, he would ask whether this House had not always acted under the same compulsion as it had acted under during the last twenty days?--(Hear, hear, on the Minist.rial side.) If the creation of Peers was a breach of the Law and the Constitution, it was a breach that had existed for a very long period. Where was the difference, in point of principle, between creating seventy-two Peers for a particular purpose, and creating several at once ?—(Hear, hear.) The Crown had equally the power to create Peers in one way as the other, and the Ministers were bound to advi-e his Majesty to create Peers, if they thought that the interests of the country re quired that this should la? done. They acted on their re sponsibility, and if they did any thing wrong or improper they were liable to be impeached in that House, where their Lordship would sit as judges.—(Hear, hear, on the Ministerial side). Lord WHARNCLIFFE—That was, they were to be ju,'ged by their own nominees. Earl RADNOR—He did not know whit the Noble Baron meant by nominees, or what right he had to call any Noble Lords in that House, or that might be intro duced into that House nominees of the present Ministers, any more than nominees of any other Nlinisrers. A No ble Lord had, on one occasion, talked of Noble Lords being driven by Ministers as naves by the whip of the driver; and now their Lordships were called nominees. Why, then, when the Noble Baron's father was created a Peer for some purpose, what was he but a Ministerial nominee? —(Hear, on the Ministerial side.) No matter whether one was created, or whether two or twenty-two were cre ated, the principle was the same. Suppose that some great public measure sludild be obstructed by the obsti nacy of one Peer, and that the obstacle wan removed by the creation of one Peer, the principle was the same a, if the Crown had created twenty Peers. But then they sometimes abandoned the ground of principle, and resorted to that of swamping that House. He did not know what they meant by " swamping." How could it be called " swamping" the Home, when the Crown only exercised its undoubted and ordinary prerogative? But the real truth was, that the principle that they acted upon was not the interests of the country, but the preservation of themselves as an exclusive order. Their consideration was not the interests of the country. Their object was not, by preventing the creation of Peers, to preserve their own independence ; for, after the creation of new Peers, they would be as independent as before. , B ,o u t t t te o h p y wished r-esery preserve their i prevent ndepe the n den creationce_ b o u t to preserve new Peers,_ ther own order as ex elusive and unchecked. Ministers were bound not to act on that principle. On the contrary; it was their duty to advise the Crown to create new Peers, provided they thought the interests of the country required it. It was not out of any regard to the interests of the country that they objected to the creation of new Peers. I t was because they wished that their own exclusive order should not be trended upon. This was the reason that made them stand between the Crown and the country, upon the great measure now depending in Parliame n t. H e thought that the great mass of the nation was right in the opinions which they had formed on that great measure, and that the confusion and obstruction of business whi c h h a d pre vailed such a long time was entirely owing to the Noble Lords who hail opposed its progress. It was the duty of 'Ministers to create new Peers if the measure could not be in ied otherwise, and he hoped and trusted that Ministers would do their duty, and he had no doubt but that the best consequences would follow. Lord WHARNCLIFFE—He supposed, that as the Noble Earl had thus interposed, he was to have no other answer from the Noble Earl at the head of the Adminis- tration. Earl GREY—He had already stated that he had tea he bad t a k en office, and to which he had pledged hi mse lf; ronable hope s of being able to carry the object for whi c h and he did not think that the Noble Lord had a right to expect that he would at present give any further answer. ( Lord WHARNCLIFFE—He mus , say that he really thought this most extraordinary. He bad long known the Noble Earl (Radnor), and he was astonished to hear biro talk as he had dune. The NuE4 Earl said they looked not the interettb of their country, but to the prem:rvationof heir own exclusive order. But ready if their order was tot to he preserved in its due integrity and independence, 'hen the House of Lords was of no use. Did the House of Lords exist wholly for the interests of the individual, vim composed it, or did it exist for the in'e. , est of the whole community ? If it existed for 'he interest of the whole community then it ought to he preserved—if it did not exist for the interest of tit, eommunity, then the House of Lords was useless. Wlo n they talked of the measure being revolutionary, ould any thing in the way of revolutionary haranguing go beyond the speech which the Noble Errl had made on the present occasion ? The present question was rot one which merely affected the House of Commons. It was one which affected the Crown and the country—. which affected every individual in that House, and the whole Howie as a body. A Bill for amending the repre sentation had been brought into that House to he deli berated upon ; they differed about a question in the Com inittee; the Ministers advised the King to make new Peers, in (o der to carry the measure ; the King refused, and the Ministers resigned in consequence of that refusal ; but now they s rid that they still retained their office,, having got fell powers to carry the meaure in their own way. Now, atter thtt, could any one say that there was not an end of the independence of that House? The blow was struck ; the Government of the country was in the House of Commons; and that House was no longer free.--(Hear, hear, on the Opposition side.) Nor was the Monarch free.--( Hear, hear.) He maintained that the advice given to the Crown was a mere pretext for some other purpose than to pass the Bill. There was no inten tion to get rid of the Bill, and the charge to that effect against the Noble Lords who acted with him, was a calumny for which there was not the least foundation. He fairly confessed that he Lad fallen into a mistake when he agreed to support the motion for taking the clauses out of the order in which th y stood in the Bill. He thought it was a newer of no importance to alter that order, and, therefore, had agreed to the proposition of taking the en franchising clause first. Senie of their Lordships were adverse to the principle of Re'orm altogether; but the second reading of the Bill was carried, and then, when the principle was admitted, the next step was to proceed with the amendments. It was proposed to take the en fretnehisiog chuses first, and agreed to, that upon the un derstanding that the main clauses of the Bill were to be preserved, and that the principle of the Bill was not to be touched. But the Ministers objected to this, and being defeated, they resorted to the expedient of advising the Crown to create Peers. He denied that there was any int, Orion to touch the principle of the Bill, and Cbe Mi nisters themselves afforded him an argument to show that they did not consider it a mat er of any moment, since one of themselves had admitted in the other House that it was a matter of no consequence. In the House of Corn morn the matter had been treated in a d , fferent spirit. But he bad only to say, in conclusion, that he certeioly would not decide upon what line of conduct lie should ful low until he should have ascertained on a hat footing the House stood. He must first know in what position the House stood, and then he would act accordinely. The Earl of CARNARVON wished to put a question to the Noble Earl. in order that lie might know not only what his (Lord Carnarvon's) situation was, but what the situation of the House was. At the same time he did not wish for any information that in his opinion ought not to be given. He felt, however, that he had a right to ask the Noble Earl whether they were to be permitted to go into the Committee on the Bill, for the purpose of exer cising the privilege never before questioned, of correcting the sfetails of the measure, so es if possible to render it more uninjurious and palatahle. He was the more desi rous to know this, because, by what the Noble Lords op. posite termed conciliation, they meant passive obe&ence. Such language, indeed, as that used by the Noble Lords, professing Whig principles too as they did, had never be fore been heard from Ministers of th • Crown. Never be fore had it been intimated, in order to influence the deci sion of their Lerdships on the details of any measure in a Committee, that the King would be required by an extraordinary act of authority to insure their concur rence. If such a doctrine had been held in other times, buoy loud would have been the storm of indig nation which it would have raised ! What was the fact ? That a Minister of the Crown existed in that situa tion by destroying the Constitution, which it wat his daty to protect. If, instead of the feeble voice which now ad dressed their Lordships, that of a Grenville could he heard in that House, the Noble E irl would have shrunk from th e castigation he wounl have received, and their Lordships and the country would have been spared the infliction which they were now doomed to endure. He wished to ask the Noble Earl if it was the intention of his :Majesty's Government to allow the Bill to go through the Com mittee in a spirit of fairness and candour? All that was required by his side of the House was, that any Amend ments which they might think it their duty to suggest, should he considered with temper and impartiality. He also wished to know from the Noble Earl (and to that question, after what be had already stated, the Noble Earl could feel no difficulty in answering) if the Noble Earl meant to propose to his Majesty- to interfere with such a creation of Peers as would deprive the House of Lords of the power of coming to any piactical resolution in which his Majesty's Ministers did not perfectly concur? As on the one hand, these who thought with him on the subject, would not submit to dictation, although it might wear the garb of courtesy; so on the other hand, they did not wish to go into the Committee with a view of mutilating the Bill, or thwarting the in• tention of its authors; but were honestly desirous of en• deavouring to improve it. He wished to know what it was the Noble Earl's intention to do with the Bill in the Committee ? And he also wished that before !lion (ley, their Lordships should know whether they were to meet without the previous exercise of the Royal prero gative. which his Majesty had been recommended to en lace? He again promised in his own name, and in that of his Noble Friends, to meet the hropositions of the Noble Earl with every spirit of conciliation; and lie hoped the feeling would he reciprocal. Before he said any more, he would await the Noble Earl's answer. If he did not condescend to make one, their Lordship would perhaps allow him to add a few words. Earl GREY observed, that the conduct of the Noble Earl throughout all the discussione upon this question had been so calm and conciliating, that nothing like an exhibi t:on of violence or temper could be expected from him in the further proceedings.—(A laugh.) The Noble Earl had first asked him it the Bill was to be considered in the Committee in a spirit of fairness and candour. He (Lord Grey) might put the same question to the Noble Earl with great propriety. The answer to it would depend Match more upon the spirit that might be manifested by the Noble Earl and his friends. For himself, nothing could be further from his wish and intention than to go into the Committee in any other spirit than that of good temper and impartiality. As to the other question, it was a ques. tion which, be repeated, no one was entitled to put to him, and he must therefore decline giving it an answer. The Earl of CARNARVON resumed—Adverting to the observation with which the Noble Earl had cam- meneed his answer, he remarked, that after having held out a menace such as no Minister had ever before ven tured to hold out to the House of Peers, the Noble Op pressor was pleased to smile at the pangs of the injured. He denied that he had exhibited the violence which the Noble Earl attributed to him. Before they had met in that House, the Noble Earl had had opportunities of knowing his conduct. On one occasion in particular the Noble Earl and himself had been engaged for six weeks in 4 personal inquiry ; and be would appeal to the Noble Earl if, on that occasion, he had exhibited any violence or want of temper. The Noble Earl alleged that the proceedings in the Committee on the Bill would depend on the spirit manifested by him (Lord Carnarvon) and his friends ; and had spoken of the good temper and con ciliation which he was himself prepared to exhibit, In firm, the Noble Earl wight manifest good temper and conciliation ; but what was the substance ? That the Noble Earl had never submitted to a single amendment or alteration in the detail of the Bill. To lt:s question whether, when in the Committee, they should he subject to -ee their independence a , : once annihilated, the Noble Earl had not condescended to answer. He would tell t h e Noble Earl that he (Lord Carnarvon) would never sit in that House with the Noble Earl's fifty et- s ixty liveried laequeys. honour.(Hear , hear A .) rid were where wer persons were the - last words he should utter there, th e y were the ex piring la of Englisho be found ? He bad not yet h ear d t h at the hadgone round to offer a rew ar d f or volunteers. po a si ble that so many individuals, terming them.. selves gentlemen, could condescend to be so made use of? Fur his own part, while lie rem tined in the House he would do what he considered his duty with reference to the Bill; for it was a matter of perfect indifference to hint, if the House perished, whether it was to be by sui cide, or by an act of the coolest assassination. One favour h e would ask the Noble Earl, that in justice to him and his friends, before he overpowered their Lordships with the me oAceil inundation he would bring in a Bill to rescue them from the degradation of the association ; and by a clause in that Bill restore him (Lord Carnarvon) to the rank of an English Commoner, of which he should be the more proud, m ight then; perhaps, be enabled to exercise the pri v.leges of a legislator. He hoped the Noble Earl would grant this request, which he made in perfect seriousness. Ur this be was sure, that it would not be long before the country would be roused from the state of intoxication and ;badness into w..i011 it haci been betrayed ; an] it - utild 1,41. to distinguish its real from its pretended friends. The liirhop of BRISTOL was of opinion (as we wader_ rood his Lordship), that the proposed exercise of the Roy, Prerogative would he most unconstitutional. He hop, Noble Lords would not withdraw during the discussions or. the Bill, but would attend and do their ditty. He wa, convinced that there war a strong feeling growing in th, country against the Bill—and he had that day teceivol letter from Bristol, in which it was stated that a hrgt portion of the respectable inhabitants of th tt place wet: inimical to the Bill. 1-1 -re the conversation dropped ; and their Lord,hi r s Adjourned to Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Al4l 18. Owing to a call of the House, the gallery was not opened until Half-past Five o'clock, and upon our admission, n' found that a question was before the House relative (ae att understood) to the non-attendance of some of the Members. On the question being put, Mr. HUME said that he would he sorry to put Hon. Metnbers to any inconvenience beyond what was necessary ; but he should be obliged to enforce the inotion, unless something was then stated that would render it unnecessary. He would therefore ask the Noble Lord (Althorp.) whether any arrange ments had yet been made, for the purpose of satisfying the country respecting the Reform Bill, Lord ALTHORP then rose, and the hue and noise atten dant on a very crowded House instantly subsided into a deathlike silence. Ha said—l rise, Sir, to give the house a statement in accordance with the wish of the Hon. Member. I beg to state that since I teas last in this House his Majesty's Ministers have received such security for the passing of the Retorm Bill as appears to them most satisfactory— (lmmense cheers)—and that therefore we shall continue to hold our offices as hitherto.—(Lond and long cheering.) Lord MILTON—Under the circumstances, and from the statements which the House has just heard, I beg leave to state, fur the information of many to whom my intentions were not communicated, that after the assurance we have just heard, it is no longer toy intention to submit to the House the address which I had intended to move.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. HUME moved that the order of the day for the call of the House he di-charged. Sir ROBERT PEEL rose amidst loud and deafening cheers. Tne Hon. Baronet observed, that he was not aware of the intention of the Noble Lord to make any intima tion io the House of the nature he had just done; but as a man deeply interested in the prosperity of the country, and anxiously and ardently wishing for the terminatian of the present state of affairs, had the Noble Lord not made the announcement he had done, he should have felt it his duty to have called upon him for sonic explanation on the subject, and he should have entreated the Noble Lord, not without notice, net without giving au opportunity for mature deliberation, to put the House in possession of how Ministers stood with his Majesty. He had, however, been precluded from performing that duty by the communication which the Nobte Lord had just traute.—(Lou•l cheers.) He trusted, however, that the House would permit him, as the crisis was peculiar, to make a few explanations as to himself, and that the House would not grudge him a few minutes while he stated the grounds on which he had formed the decision lie had come to. On Wednes day last a communication was made to him by a Noble Friend of his, for whom, notwithstanding all the calum flint's assertions that had gone forth—(Tremendous cheers) —he was proud to avow the sincerest admiration for his talents and esteem fur his character, (he meant Lord Lyndhurst) who informed him, not that he had had a communication from his Majesty to form a new Administration, but that his Majesty had selected bina front having filled the office of Lord Chancellor, and as being a judicial character, for the purpose of conferring with hint on the state of the country. That Noble Lord had inquired of him whether he considered it to be in his power to enter into the service of the King at the present moment, stating, at the same time, that the King, by the resignation of his late Ministers, had been deprived of carrying his declaration into effect with re spect to the Reform Bill. He must admit that it cer tainly was then notified to him, and he was hound in honour to state it, that the only other person with whom any conference bad been had was his Grace the Duke of Wellington, and that that Noble Personage had determined to assist his Majesty, wishing for no office, but who would have accepted office if cir cumstance. required it, or, if not, he was willing to assist the King with his services, without taking any office. Although no communication of that sort was ever made to him (Sir Robert), yet as he saw no advantage in reserve at that moment, he must state that he certainly did understand from the question that was put to him, that the tendency of the inquiry of Lord Lyndhurst was, whe ther he was willing to accept the office, which, in po litical life, was supposed to be the highest in the State. (Cheers.) It certainly was riot notified to him, and he was bound in justice to the King to confine the declarations which had been made by his Noble Friend, that the accept ance of office must be upon the clear understanding that his Majesty's declarations with respect to Retbrin should be fulfilled—(Loud cheering on the Ministerial B'nches)— that the acceptance of that offiee must be upon the condi tion of his introducing an extensive measure of Re . fortn.—(Cheers.) His reply to Lord Lyndhurst, he admitted, was made on the impulse of the moment, but it was done under those impulses of feeling which it was utterly impossible for him to control, and for which he busted the House would give him credit. His reply to Lord Lyndhurst was, that it was utterly impossible for him to accept office on the condition of proposing such a measure of Reform—that, from the course he (Sir Robert) had hitherto adopted with respect to the Reform Bill, it was utterly impossible for him to accept office, understand ing, as he did, that the phrase " extensive Reform," meant the adoption of the leading provisions of the Bill as it now stood. He had always considered the Bill fraught with injustice, both in its prin ciple and in its details, and he had before expressed his determination to oppose it to the last. How therefore, he would ask the House, could he, with justice to himself or to his Majesty, have accepted the office of a mediator, when he was the very person, from his own peculiar feelings upon the subject, who would he most li*ely to put an end to all mediation ?—(Mt.ch cheering.) The ground, therefore, on which he vindicated the course he had taken, was the peculiar situation in which be stood. Ha did not call in question the motives of others; he held those motives in the highest respect. He had no doubt they had acted from the most disinte- f r r e o s m ted a . 7 n ot se iv , e but )f s, the n situ it ati nia s from oninwh n which he h s e e st s o e of h stood, and from the peculiar situation in which be was placed, he had thought it his duty to give a direct refusal to take office. Upon the Catholic Question he hid given advice to his Majesty, but upon the present question, had he token offic,, he must have introduced into that House a measure against which he had recorded his opinions strongly. He could not have done ,o without lowering himself in the esteem both of himself and his friends. He felt that it wuu:d not be for the public advantage, nor for the cha racter of public men, had he accepted office upon such terms.--,Cheers.) Though the English Bill was out of that Hous e , and in the other (louse of Parliament, the Scotch and Irish Bills still remained for closideration in that House, and it must have fallen to him, as part of his duty, to have taken them under his charge. His objection to the Irisii Bill was so strong that he never could h iv e done so ; his reason would have entirely precluded that : it was perfectly impossible for him to accept office, in order to early that Bill. He had refined office at the expense of a temporary separation iro:n that min in the country + who, though he had taken a different couree on this question, he most admired—he meant the Duke of bl u isie r t k o.ff i o. n r g m e suspicion e that a ta4ney to G over stand,ri ve n h inflment uenced se t e uho n pl c co e Gin t u l o l t b d vh ee n r o nr a i um v r Wellington. It h a d b een announced that he had been it He he c a } i n ii s g id li t. t rel step th i a n t a th n i d s seize the required no denial at his hand ; but if there was one man in that House who wished for explanation, he could soon satisfy him that there was no earthly foundation for such a charge. The declaration of the Duke (of Wellington) in the House of Lords, last night, that there had been a temporary cessation of political friendship between them, was enough to convince the House that there could be no ambitious wish of his, but what could have been gratitie 1.--( Hear.) Lou' ALTHORP, for one, had never imputed improper or unworthy motives to the Hon. Baronet, and he be lieved that no one in that House gave co etlence to the re ports to which the Hun. Baronet had alluded. Mr. BARING rose to speak, but the noise occasioned by Members leaving the House was so great that his first sen tences were lost. He felt satisfaction in hearing the explana tion given by the Noble Lord opposite, not only for the sake of the country, but also for the share which he had had in the transactions of the few last days. Li the few words he was about to offer, he woold cautious'y ab stain from making one allusion which would provoke one word of further observation upon that explanation ; hut he felt that if he sat still atter the explanation offered by hi Hon. Friend (Sir It. Peel), be would be liable to have some of the attacks which were now so plentifully thrown about, stuck upon him. He could answer for the truth of the statement made by his Hon. Friend as to the mo tives which had actuated him in the transactions of the 'set few days, he having expressed them in almost the :eine worsis to him when he applied to him to take office. Supposing the Kiug was to admit it was his duty to take such toes-urea as troohi insure the pissing of the Bill, was rh a t a reason why a Minister should avail himself if the occasi•in to force Other cireutnstances upon his llajesty, to which, as a Monarch of this country, he could ever submit ? His Majesty would say, because I con sider Celt this Bill :should be passed, shall I therefore •übmit to a circumstance which I conscientiously cannot think ought to have been allowed ?—(Cheers.) Such had Steen case, and it was in such a case the Duke of Wellinet in was called on by hi; Majesty. Could diet Noble Duke, then, fleeing his King in such eircunastences, say to kin, No, I have taken such steps upon this measure, which you say must pass—l stand in such a position upon this question, having protested against it, that I eau render you no iseistance. He (Mr. I 3 ) nos convinced that no man in the country would believe that ee, in the m inner in which he had acted, had taken other than a straight forward view of the subject under the eircometauces. When the Duke applied to biin (Mr Bari(ig) the first words th it he said to him were, that he felt all the difficulties of the case, but he would be ashamed to crawl about the metro polis, if lie had not gone immediately to the King and rendered him ,all the assistance that was in his power. It teas not his (Mr. Baring's) wish to go further into ea pl median upon this topic, but he might be excused forjust glancing at the miserable efforts of seine who must he base minded, who had imputed to the Duke of Wellington an Mordinate desire of place. He believed he need not repel such an insinuetinte for no man who knew the character of his Grace, could believe him to be actuated in that man ner. He would say that, if ever there was a case for ad miration, his was nice ; and fir himself he must declare that crest as his admiration of the Noble Duke's character was, he had never witnessed a greater proof of his magna nimity, than in the resolution to which he had come. lie well knew that the Noble Duke might, and would he bath abused and vilified, nevertheless he was not afraid ; with all who would tske the trouble to examine the matter with out prejedice, as to the position in which his Grace stood, they would, one and all, declare the act to be an act of beroisne—(Vehement cheering from the Opposition.) Supposing the state of the case to have been as he had put it ; the King applied to Lord Lyndhurst, and Lord Lynd hurst to the Duke of Welhne ton, and what he had asserted followed. There was no wish on the part of his Majesty, as he had previously stated, Si get out of the promise for a of the Commons' Howe of Parliament ; on the contrary, he was anxious to have that measure carried, but then his Majesty was i'esirous that it should be carried wi , hout destroying the House of Peers.—(Hear, and a laugh,) Probably Hon. Gentlemen opposite might think a lane creation of Peers an improvement to the House of Lords, hut he could only declare that such was not his opie nion Would the King have been in a better position if the Duke of Wellington had refused to go to his aid? It was not a very enviable situation of things to have the Crown adverse to the Administration. After some fur. Cher observations, which were indistinctly heard in the gillerv, the flenourable Member concluded with stating, that the conduct of the Duke of Wellington was highly meritorious. Sir RICHARD VYVYAN said he had always under wood that the King of England was not a responsible person, but that his Minis era were. He must protest against the doctine that b ul bren broached, insinuating re sponsihility to the Monarch.—(Hear.) He was one of those who entirely approved of the line pursued by the Duke of Wellington; it was the duty of the Noble Duke, when called upon by his Majesty, to form an Administra tion if possible. It was impossible that the present Mi nisters could he justified upon constitutional grounds in the course they had taken, and posterity would pronounce a sentence of condemnation upon them for their efforts to destroy the House of Peers. lie fully appreciated the benourehle motives which had influenced the Right Hon. B hear,) and although he might from one party expect obloquy being cast upon him, from another he might anticipate hatred, and from a third, misunder etandine, yet he would stand, not only acquitted of all blame, but would receive the need to which he was justly entitled. The King of Enelend, as he had before stated, could no wrong ; his Ministers were alone responsible. The Knits was bound by no letter written by that Mini his e t e m r p o t r e d h h s t e c w r h e t i m e h ry. h - 0 ( ( s H i r ea ß r,. fi v e; v r . y ) a n e) had orsh h s t taotn in saying was an act of treason—(Heer, hear,)—for hav ing attempted that which, in another reign, formed a sub ject of impeachment. The act of Ministers in that reign, to which he had made allusion, was of a minor description compired with the attempt of the present Ministers. The latter hail, with one blow, recommended the overpower ing of one of the branches of the Legislature, merely be cause a particular clause in a B:;I had been postponed, contrary to the wishes of the Administration. He was quite certain that when these extraordinary transactions were fully developed and calmly reasoned upon, the con duct of the King to preserve the House of Peers would be highly esteemed. He (Sir R. Vyvyan) had no apprehen shins as to the results of a general election, had such a course been recommended, and he believed that if an elec tion had taken place, and the question raised in the country es the determination of the King not to create Peers, his name would have been found as potent as it was last year.—( Heir.) Captain GORDON said that the machinery of the Ad ministration had derclosed some latent movements which were before unknown. Upon these the country would now have an opportunity of firming a judgment. He could not hut complain of the speeches made in that House by the Hen. Members fur Middlesex, Kerry, Calne, and Northumberland. Had the House forgotten the language used by those Hun. Gentlemen, in which their sentiments were couched ?—(Hear.) Had the House forgotten the spirit in which these sentiments had been uttered ? (Hear.) It was not for him to say what the motives of these Hon. Gentlemen might be. Their motives could only be known "to the Searcher of all hearts." But be would ask what was the effect of those speeches, conveying the sentiments to which he had adverted ? He could put no other construction upon the language than that of showing the petiole that the House of Commons was itself the head of all Rehirm.—(Hear.) But he would now, with permission of the House, refer to what had transpired nit of doors (and quote the language attributed to the Hon. Member for Middlesex, by means of the newspapers, for he had no other authority), at a meeting recently held in one of the metropolitan districts. If Members of that House set such an example to the people, it was no surprise to find the peopl e imitating it. The language of Parliament would nut &low him (Captain Gordon) to designate what he thought of such sentiments so expressed. Tne Hon. Mtenlier for Middlesex asked at the meeting, after alluding to the introduction of troops in the me tropolis, " whether the people of this country would ' suffer themselves to be deprived of their freedom and hrinded as slaves ?"—( Hear, heir.) This was the lan guage of an incendiary.—(Hear, h e ar.) Th en t h e H on . Ceentleman went on to ask the people, " whether they would bend their neck s to the yoke which was appirendy pre pared for them ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hoe. Member for Middlesex toed the people that 150 person. were opposed to the people, whom he described as being a miserable faction. This was language which could not be misun derstood. Then the conduct towards an Illustrious Per sonage of the other sex, on the part of the meeting, was odious. They gave " three groans for the Queen." Surely this was a course of proceeding which no man, having the feelings of a to in and a Christian, would be envious of partaking in. Was this the way taken to sup port his Mejesty's Government? But if Members of that House used such language at the meetings which had taken piece, it was no surprise to find the people acting sa shamefully. Tee Hon. and Learned Gentleman, whom Fe did not then see in his place, bad given some advice to a meeting which he bad attended. Fle heti told them how they might assist the Ministry. It was painful to him (Captain Gordon) to take this course, but he felt it his duty. The language used at the meetings in the country was such as no man would approve of. It was the lan- • gunge of the incendiary and the demagogue, and when the character and agency of this power were taken into cons &ratios:), it would he found one day too strong for its master; the brick-bet and the missile would teach ere long a practical lesson to that effect.—(lleer.) Mr. HUME thought that the Hon. Member had •liown a considerable degree of irritation throughout his speech, which warped his judgment. The complaint of th e Hon. Gentleman resolved itselteinto two parts—lan e uttee spoken in that House, and language uttered tie- certain Members out of doers. The Honourable .11.mber ought at once to have taken down the vords which he (Mr. Hume) had uttered if he concluded them of that higly ol;ectionable nature. He would, how ever, say that he had never uttered in that House nor out of it sentiments which he shrunk from; and he would challenge any Hon. Member to state, if he could, any sen iment that he had made use of in the course of the de• ten upon this matter, which was unconstitutional.—. , Hear.) Toese sentiments might not be palatable te. the • Flop. Gentleman, but he would maintain that they were eerfectly constitutions!. and such ; as had been again and apill echoed in that House. He threw back.witleintlige. • tation the insinuations of the Hon. Member. Any senti ment that lie had uttered within the last ten days he was ready to defend, for he had not spoken in anger but pre neditatediy. The Hon. Member had asked what was the haracter of . those meetings ? He would tell him that