The Sun. — London, England, 1801-03-26 00:00:00

Inc wish to express, for he pretended to no such phi losophy as that, which led to the species 'of indif_ femme of the opinion of others which some persons chased to aired, nor was he indifferent to the cir: cumstances of this Country ;, nor to the opini'on which the Public might entertain of tilt share, the too large share lie had had in them : On the con trary, he confessed, that these topics occupied hi,. attention much—for events had - happened, which, disappointed his warmest wishes, and fruStrared the most favourite hopes of his heart ; and he could have desired to have continued, to pursue the objetts of such hopes and wishes to the end ot r that struggle, which he had worked for with an_ xiety and care. There was never a period - in his life, in which these topics were indifferent to him. Much less could he he indifferent to the good opi alion of those who had been induced on so many occasions to shew so much confidence in him—a . confidence, however, which lied always been con stitution Ally given, and to which he begged leave to say, every Servant of the Crown ;was entitled, until forfeited by his conduit. He was not in.. different either to the many marked instances he had observed of the personal confidence in him, upon various occasions, and which lie could not flatter himself with, having merited=--Much, however, as he felt these sentiments, there were others which he felt still more strongly ; and therefore he was under the necessity of samit ting some thoughts upon the subjeCi before the House. This was not a Question solely applicable to himself or to his Colleagues, for if it were, how ever dear the topics of such a Case might be to him, Ile should have been induced to give the House but little trouble on that account.—No, this was a Question which involved the Honour of that House, and Charmer of the Nation ; the Honour of the one, and the, Constitutional Freedom of the other. '!'his Motion, taken in that view of the subject, put to the House this Ouestion :—Whether it was pre. rated co retraa all it had declared and done for the last nine most eventful years, and had changed it's mind on the nature of that Struggle in which we had for that period been engaged, and in -which, not only so large a majority of that House had 'been so firm, but, as he had on a former occasion Wien the liberty of express ing it, a greater Majority of the People had sup ported uniformly and s t ea dily, an d which t h e y had considered- as•nothipg less than a Contest for Independence with the Enemy 'abroad, and for a Constitutional safety with the Enemy at home ? Ile believeil, therefore, that the House would con ceive its Honour to be -implicated in the Question now before it; as well as the Honour, and in a con. siderable degree, the Safety of this Country. •On these points, the decision of the House, and the judgment (lithe Public had been uniform and steady ~1f ever the moment'should arrive, in which, un der whatever mask, the attempt was made to induce the House to forget the principles by which it had been so long gttided—if ever the moment should ;r -rive, in which the principles of those who had by their. arguments supported the Enemy-- --if ever the mometn•should arrive, when the Counsels of those who had' so often embarrassed our, proceedings, and checked our 'efforts—Counsels • which to . the surrender of our Independence and ConstitutiOnal Freedom, instead of the Counsels which tended to the preservation of both—if ever the moment should arrive, when the House, being told they should tread back its steps to avoid a general havoc over all Europe, instead of.pursuing such steps uni fotmly and ,va - dily, and the more the difficulty, the firmer--it ever - the moment should arrive, when that House would listen to and follow such Coun, sell, he should then indeed begin to think that there was some ground fur the prediCtion which had been utter , d, of the downfat - of this Empire ; but, thank God ! there was no appearance. of any such down neeanse there was isdprobaHility that the advice anti counsel he had just alluded to, was to be taken as a remedy for any evil which was alledged to affliet us; he therefore spoke with less apprehension ofdan. ger than he should do if these things were doubtful, . u on , e Motion of the Honourable Gentleman, and with the less anxiety as to many parts of that Gen_ sleman's Speech, when he refleded on the manner in which it had been answered by his Right Hon. 'Friend ; indeed he thought he perceived something which conveyed an idea, that the Hon. Gentlemen opposte to him did not entertain any very sanguine hope they would be able to prevail on the House to assent to the Motion now before it; they did not seem to think they had laid before it materials to call upon it to retract all it had hitherto asserted, or reverse all it had hitherto done in the course of the present War. This consideration, therefore, supposing lie felt no other, would have induced him to remain silent on this Debate ; but he felt a mixed sensation, from what had fallen from an lion. Gentleman and Noble Lord, with whom he had the honour or beitig connate(' in kindred, as he had hithe rto i n political sentiments. , He felt gratefully for the un_ merited expressionsof good opinion which his Noble Kinsman, and those with whom he was most im mediately conneetcd,,had direded towards him ; but he mast confess, that he, should have been better pleased, both as a Public Man, and a private In dividuai, it he' had beard sentiments that were less favourab!., to himielf; and more favourable to others, : who were now in His Majesty's service ; and if he felt any other than such wishes, he apprehended he sho: , !ti have been unworthy of the good opinion which the Noble Lord had been pleased en express of him ; anti he could not help saying, that those who, like the Noble Lord, were to vote for this Motion, were,Wi t hoot in tendin4 it, pursuing% c,ouise the most unfair, (he would explain distinctly what he said) the most unkind, towards those to whom they professed friend•hip, they possibly could pursue, and at the same timea course that would be the most mischievous they could pursue with regard to the interests of the Public. Now as to the word unfair, which he per_ ceived had an effett on some Gentlemen on the o t her side which he did not inL2nd to produce, he meant nothing uncivil to these Gentlemen ; but the 110,1se should judge whether his ideas were just or .not, '1 here were two sets of Gentlemen who were desired to vote on precisely the same question, on, tw o ground, that were not only ductal, but op_ pl,ite, Now, that two opposite opinions might e persons concur in one and th.e same vote, was Linos which miZbt pot only ha pen t but which might ne unavoi, llaDle ; DU? tIIIS was nor one OT TIIC cases in which that could happen. But when the contest was upon points like this now before the House, that was impossible. Here the case was very unfsirly put for the Motion. One set of Gentlemen pressed this Motion because cer tain. individuals were now out of office, they thinking that was not punishment enough for them. Others might think it no punishment at all. Others lioe!ht they ought. to be punished still further. He was not complaining of thrift who were even of this last opinion, but what he thought himself entitled to complain of was this, that all those grounds . '.c hick were so distina and separate from one ano. ther, should be made to blend together and form a mass, whereon to collea votes for the present Mo rion. He thought he had some reason to complain, that his opponent was to have the benefit of the: votes of some of the friends of the late Admini. titration, while he who was one of such Admi nistratioro• had only the benefit of a Speech from his Friends ; so that his Noble Relation expressed in him the fullest confidence, and yet pursued • him to condemnation, because he did not chuse . to confide in those of His Majesty's Servants who were no.v in office.—ln the next place, he hoped he might be permitted to observe, that there was no point which had been more disputed in that House, (although the thing .itself never appeared to him to he difficult) than that of confidence in His Majesty's Ministers.—But the case was not to stop there.— The Question of Confidence had nothing about it that was new.—lt attended the outset of his •Admi_ nistration, and it had not deserted the close of it. In the outset of his Administration, he understood it to be held by some people, that no person was ' entitled to common and ordinary confidence, until he had given proof of his having deserved it. It never could be carried in substance to the length it here went in the letter, for it was impossible to say that a man should not have any confidence in a situ ation, because it was new to him, because that must be made applicable to every human creature ; when ever he entered at first upon, any employment, he muscat some time or other be new in his employment, it was not therefore, at that time, judged that he should have no confidence personally, for certainly that was not claimed for him ; but it was said, that as he carne into Administration with sentiments opposite to those which bad been held by those who preceded him in Office, and had enjoyed the confidence of the House, he meant the sentiments'of the Hon. Gentle man opposite to him (Mr.. Fox), and the Question . was then, whether he who was then said to hold sentiments different from those which-were said to have had the confidence of the Ilouse, should have any of that confidence placed in him, that was 'the way in which the point was put then; but the way in which it was put , now, was absolutely whimsical—for it was now stated, 4 ‘ 1-lere is - a Ministry who have had the full coOfiderice .of the House of Commons." Words which he did not presume to utter, for himself,—but which, for the purposes of this Debate, were ut tered by others for him, -and Gentlemen had said, that within a few hoots of his departure, there was an ,appearance of stability in _His Majesty's Go. Vernrtient---But what. was the complaint..noW? Not that the l'Crsons who now claimed the support of the House, : differed from those who had received that support, as he was stated to have done In 1783—how correalyt that was stated was another questionbut that was not the case now, the, reverse of it ; for the case now was, that those who now claimed the confidence of the House, ought not to have it, because they profess the same principles as those who have so long possessed that confidence. • The reason for this was a very curious one, it was stated by certain Gentlemen to be that of their not knowing why His Majesty's late Ministers had re. tired :--so that confidence was to be withheld from His Majesty's . present Servants, before Gentle. ' men knew why their Predecessors went out of office, and bathe the new ones are known,— He did not see why Gentlemen were to with-hold their Confidence from His Majesty's present Mi nisters because they did not know" why their Predecessors, retired ; he • did not know why Gen tlemen wanted any more information on that sub jed than they possessed already. The y k new almost all they should know, and he believed all they would know upon.that subjea ; but here the cause of complaint was, that certain Gentlemen, for a cause which themselves professed to he unable to explain, the Public were to be deprived of the services of those who had been chosen by the Crown, merely because there was, about the retirement of their Predecessors, some thing which these Gentlemen said they did not understand ; and because the House did not know how the New Ministers would ad.—He understood that they were persons who would a& on their own judgment,. as they ought to do in each particular, hut that their general principles are the same ; and then it came to this—that the Supporters of the present Motion said the House ought to withhold its confidence from the present Ministers, not because they are the reverse, but because. they are the same in principle with those in whom the House bad confided. —But he would not stop here. If the House considered the ppints On which it usually afforded its confidence, it would find every reason, for affording it to t h e present Mi nisters. It was said that Ministers should be men known to the House of Commons before the House confided in them. Be it so.—That could not be made applicable to the situation in which they were at any time to be appointed, because that would go to the exclusion ot confidence in any man whenever he came into a new situation.-- There could be no experience of him in that situa. tion until he was tried. But when persons were tried in one situation, and had acquitted themselves well, the rule was to give them credit they would do so in any other situation, until proof of something to the contrary appeared.—lf this was not corral doctrine, he was very much deceived. He sho - uld like to know on what principle it was that the:pro priety of supporting them should be questioned until they had shown by their actions that they aid not deserve to be supported. Were these Gentlemen. called to a situation that was new to them ? Yes - it was so ; but were they new to the Public ? Not : so, for they were not only not new to the HQUSC.and the Public, but they were ,not new to the love and, esteem of the House and the rkgic, )44 01.4 I rOM SUffIC ,erir ex 'perience as to their principles and talents.—One of them was a Gentleman who was admired in private as well as re_ spewed and esteemed in public, who hatt been long chosen into the situation of the first Com. moner in this Country, and had lately been unani mously re.eleded to that 'high station. Was this the Person of whom the House of Commons were to say, they would not confide in him, because at a moment of difficulty, dissembled by none, bu't ex. aggeiated by some persons, who love dwelling on any topic which gave any thing of a gloom to our affairs, he quitted a situation of the highest autho. rity a Representative of the People can possess, for one of greater trouble and perplexity, and at a ma- ment when Hon. Gentlemen were holding out the 'difficulties of the situation to be insuperable ? To re fuseConfidenee to such a person in such a situation, appeared to him to be repugnant to common sense and to common justice, and he could not help saying, thathe was astonished at his Noble Friend and the Honourable Baronet, for' what he had heard this night from them on some parts of this subjea.— Again he would say, that if he saw a Noble Lord (Lord HAWKESBVkY) called to the situation Of a Secretary of State, he was ready to ask, without the fear of receiving -any answer that would disap point him, whether Gentlemen on the other side knew any man who was superior to that Noble Lord, who for the last ten years had experience of State affairs, and who had given more proof of steady attention to public business ; of a betiertuf dersia nding, of more information ; who, from all the habits of his life, from hereditary habits of atten tion to business, of perseverance, and- of all those qualities which go to qualify a man. for great affairs—He was ready to ask Gentlemen oti the other side, he Said, if they knew any one 'among themselves who was superior to his Noble Friend ? Let 'them give him the answer. He should like to take the opinions of the different individuals on the other side, if it were n o t a p a i n f u l t hi ng to p ut i t to their modesty, whether any one among them, ex_ cept one whose attendance was of .late rare, whose transcendant talents indeed made him an exception to almost any rule; but whose conduit was what Ought, generally speaking, to be an exception also,' to the rules which ought to guide the affairs of this Country, and which conduel had been at variance in some respefts from that of almost every other public man, and which , if followed, must have been highly injurious to the true interest Of this Conn try—He repeated it, he knew of no one on the opposite side of the House except the Honourable Gentleman he had alluded to, whose 'experience was very great, as his talents were transcendant, who was more than equal to his Noble Friend in capacity. for business. He did not mean to offer any incivility to Gentlemen on the other side, or any one Of them ; but he did not think that he had offered either of them any disparagement whatever, when he said, that neither of them was more than equal to his Noble Friend. Was it necessary for him to say , retic:i of the faculties and fitness in every particular of a certain Noble Lord, who was like-, ly soon to have the custody of the Great Seal ? He was,, surely, not new to this Country, whose cha, ratter for legal. knowledge, fur integrity; and for ss cluster of those qualities which fit him for that-high office,' had' been, long acknowledged. There was no pledge necessary on behalf of such a charafter. Of other individuals of the new Administration, he could say much, 'but if he were to indulge his feelings upon this topic.he should be in danger of wearying the House. There was, however, one charaaer of whom he could not forbear speaking—Lt would occur to the House, that it was not an easy thing to supply the place of the late First Lord of the Aa miralty, Earl SPENCER; and, yet he should think, that the name of Earl ST. VINCENT would appear in a satisfaftory light to the House even as the suc cessor of the Noble Earl, or of any other man known to this Country; and that the more espe cially in a period of War, whiCh called for all the exertion of the Executive Government—Was this appointment not such as to support the hope of this Country, that it would come soon to the aer mination of a Contest which we had conduaed near to conclusion--[" Hear ! Hear from; the other side) --which —which he trusted we had concluded near to 'a con clusion. But whether the Contest was yet. to be long or short, until the objeft of it-be secured, he trusted the spirit ,of the Country Would not be im 'paired, nor 'in any degree slackened, butt exerted with vigour towards bringing it. to a termination ; or if we were still to struggle with continued' diffi cultieS, he would ask, was not the name of that Noble Earl a shield and bulwark to the Nation ? He would therefore say; that Gentlemen spoke with but refleelion, or even consideration, when they said the present Administration was not entitled to the confidence of that House, or of the Public ; he meant, ofcourse no more than a Constitutional Con fidence. All he contended for was, that unless some good reason were assigned to the contrary, the House was hound by the best principles of Policy, as well as hy the true spirit of the Constitution of this Country, to wait to see the conduit of the Ministers of the Crown, before they would withhold their confidence: On this subjea of confidence, let not Geotlemen sup pose, that a Committee on the State of the Nation could be of the least use, because nothing that could • be there disclosed, could give the Houie more inform ation than the House possessed already on that mat. ter ; nor could any thing be done in that Committee, that could alter the present posture of the Executive Government, unless the Committee should pass a Resolution to withdraw its confidence front the present Ministers of the Crown, and to give it to their opponent (Mr. Fox) and his friends, in order to make them successors to them, which wo;ld• be a pretty strong measure, and border on •an .in croachment on the . Prerogative, besides that of in. • troducing principles the very reverse of those , wliich had hitherto invariably- had the sinftion of Parliament. He did not- mean to use any sapprO. • .brious epithets towards Gentlemen cm the other side, but he certainly did not say more than was . warranted - - by fad,' whe n . -he said, • th a t- by the constant cdtirse -of • determination- OE- Parliament, the • principles of these Gentlemen-had been re probated:. Having said. -thisi :he. would now utter' a Word or tap for his Colleignes, and for himselfaaaaWitli regarLl to their quitting their Of fices, hetlichtiOt;see 'any mystery -about. that Kis jeft, 'and be thoa&ht he wets entitled to rely on the entle ing the sincerity of their declarations on the occa. sion. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke first, was pleased to say, he would allow that an opinion on a ,public measure of importance which a Minister found he could not propose with success, or that he was not able to propose as a measure which was assuredly to receive the assistance of those_vsha compose the Executive Government, and that such a measure a Minister could net conscientious., ly give up, or abandon; that such a condition of things would be sufficient to excuse a Minister for retiring, and. would, indeed, give a Minister a right to recipe. Now, after that allowance of the Hon. Gentleman, it was matter of iistonishmeht to him, that any doubt could have been entertained by that Hon-Gentleman on that part of the subject; et that he did not at once admit that the circumstance which had been sufficiently explained already, had not amounted, in the opinion of that Honourable Gentleman, to a complete justification of himself aril others, who had retired. He admitted, however, to the Honourable Gentleman, that if a person who filled an Office of important trust under Go vernment, and had formed the project of proposing. some measure which did not appear to him to he'd much public importance, although he had made up his mind upon it, but which he could nor carry - into effea, seeing clearly that the bent of the Government, of which he made a part, was against him, then it was the duty of a Minister to fotego that opinion, and to sacrifice rather than withdraw his assistance from Government in the hour of peril. [Here want of room compels us to defer the remaindcr of thii Speech until "f-inorrow.] . Mr- FOX rose, and entered vet? fully, into the arguments whi c h b e d b een use d a gainst the Motions and defended. its nece ss ity. tvc regret that want of r oom prevent* frpin giving Mt a outline of his Spvech. lie spoke air above three houn. 71e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,,hI a concise hut argumentative arid impressive Speech, delivered his sentiments on the important Question before the House. He 'said, he-thought it probable that it may be deemed presumpiuoui in him to rise after the Hon. Genttenem'who had just sat doevo (Mr. Foie/ ; but he could not reconcile it to - his conscience or to his.duty, to give w silent vote Oh the present Motion. He did not wish to intrude upon the attention of the House, so-as to interfeib with these Gentlemen delivering their sentiment 4 against whom- this Motion was peculiarly . direct' He assured the House that, at that late- hour, hi would not trouble them long; The'stfte of his precluded him from the possibility of doing - Al e ; • however much he nilght be - otherwise ineljned tb ice He adverted, -first s to what had beeriesid.teePeef. ing hirnself, and his colleagues in Orli% pertifedi larly to what had Allen from an Hon. Gentletteee that he -disliked them because they•professedeb "get upon ths principles of the Administration .teholl 4 they succeeded. He avowed, that he did not on' derstand such language, and declared, for MOST and his Colleagues,e that they would net hate 0 ' cepted of Office on condition of being bound to ant system of principles,• because they had lieei . el n " braced by any wani or: set -of men : but,. hit also declared *sec their etinchithewoolti be 'regulated bf" chose principles which- therhadlieng4eppoived 'o l o' supported, and which had:been : , approefe•d• lay tbffsi• House r and by the Country. in reply to all!thal bad been• urged respeCting Confidence„he had:oolt to observe, that he , and his Coiteagues having` beef appointed by His MAJESTY to the offices.whidg they eiow hold,. -by his undoubted Prerogative, they asked no f urt h er con fi d ence t h an t h at Svhien they had tright to claim inconsequence of that -11134 pointment, and which he-thou g h t t h e y were entit l e d to, except precluded from it by ; h e i r prev i o ue ratters. For his own part e he could nor be influence ° . by, any private motive in accepting his present sittie ation. He had resigned an office to which, he hit been repeatedly caued 'by the unanimous voiOthe the House. A tegard to his own ease and comfort; his feelings as a husband or a father, which most naturally induce every - man! to consider the meant of providing for his family, could not certainly be considered among' the motives for his conduit.' fie had been actuated solely bye, a sense of day to his So , vereign, and regard for the interests of the Country+ He then proceeded- to advert to the grotirld of the difference between this .Country and the Northero Confedcract. The rights of this Country, he los happy to. , find, were allowed by the Honourahl ° Gentleman who made the Motion, and avowedly recognized by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke las t "' The only point in dispute seemed to be the inipoltl• ante and propriety of enforcing those rights at the present moment. He replied to some arguments used by Mr. Fox upon this subject ; and concluded his observations with exprCssing a hope that t e ll ! differences with the North ern P owers ma y yet. ' amicabiy settled, and with avowing an intention en the part of Gove rnm en r to ta k e every mean s to preve nt abuse in the exercise of this right by our Cruieet!. On the subject of Peace, he declared that Ad e nl inl • stration wished as since re ly f or i t as any set o f me e ho -in the Hous e cou ld d o ; that they Would r earliest opportu n ity o f ev i nc i ng t he sincerity o f th is wish; and if th e d es i re f or P eace was as s inte rs on-- the part , of France as its Rulers protes6ee4, which he had no reason at present oubt, ro d hoped that this grea t bl ess i ng may s o on ii"obrf otii n eu d d The sincerity•tef the Eiicmy on this pOinc . hoWevez, be brehght to the te s t by their ag re sa f e or refusing to accede to such - terms as will be te a and bellow-able for t hi s C ountr y. He dere ca , discussion upon the cl a i m o t t h e C at h o li cs of 11. ' 2 o f He avowed himself a friend to the prieciplu s in . Toleration, which •he did no t c o nceive were fringeci'by any restrictions still remaining on thee Body. He concluded with a tew observations uY;;;. the effect of the ; measures adop te d by ratliam e .with respect to the present Scarcity of Provisions i f, Mr. GREY spoke NhOrtly 111 reply to the C" c ELLOR Jai the EXCHEQUIR. :The Question bring loudly called for, the Hou se divided, when • there appeared in favour of Mr. GREY'S Motion 105 Against it - _ - 29 1 . I Vi Pr u ./1 ~G V • Majority, rB6 Adjourned at a Quarter , before Five O'Clock• _ London: Printed by B. M'M!LLAN (of Bow-s'Y''', o ,, Covent-garden); and Published by W I LLtAbt AK ) " ".;,, Qcktrrs (of 4one-ferry-w 4m ad Wl:inuet), at Vg• Strand.