The Sun. — London, England, 1801-03-21 00:00:00

v i W ..ished th en to ask, yv.hether ;t was yrooame ....ihsrtiontler se•eirennistantei,BOisTATA-RIE cowl .4berilliliioUs •to unlike Peace ivith theliatia ~1-iis.f.t.ordslti,p „then.. Ter t sured the coniltia. cif lYtifiisters with respea:_th.the Norther :Ftiti'ers:: ••%;. is' not, he Said, su much the . aetUal calsese :Siattel we tluid ifitireltend, Lbe • altirY 3 tvqelTuf; 'fus.raiet, thorn' the tioterrupl. . non D our Commerce. The shutting up the - Ports df the •Bilik at "this mninent of distress, 3xiastati-ohjaßliff'-;iltelittriest *concern' • c IN49dy coltkitliplacc :greater conftrierrre Ithitn :11e aid .in the , sver,iority : of (%it lordships must be aware, that - every thing con. neaed with War, must be subject to chance ; and What our situation (Vdtihrbe,.if We,metwith any - . -eetious reverse; he would leave (t6' Oiel:Viouse, to •jutige. It had been said that -the world was in - - arms against 'us; `and' consequently - we . _onght to • display- a - degree of spirit - equal tO the emegericy •in which wu were -placed. Untloubredly we onght,.butit was' not necessary- that we should ishiwour eyes to the danger of our .situation: This Kingdtmi npw-'stood, in his opinion, upon the brink of ruin—by - riin, be meant the total • subversion-of - society,. and the dissolution' of those bonds by which it was - held . ' ogether : and, he Was sorry to say, that was-an event which might' lappen machmore suddenly than-their Lordships - . -Seerned to -apprehend.. if it V was asked, what the .Country to tie,?' his answer would be, - that their - lordshits ought to concur .in this Motion,: . and Seriously to Inquire into -the :State 8f 'the 'Nation'. • They ought to exams ' ?nine into the condificin of the Finances. They • would find that in the Customs and the Excise there was a deficiency of near two millions; and having investigated -the state of • the Finance of the CountrY, he should then 'think 'right to ad.' dreis Hrs MAJESTY, Calling upon 'him-to afford consolation .to the , People, and to relieve their apprehensions. If the 'new Administration aced upon the principles of the old one,•the country had no reason to 'hope for a' pacific disposition ; "for cxclusive of other circumstances,.he would only state one: document, which had'not, he he '.lieved, been •before.urgeil,.-and that • was, that at the. time of the Negotiation at , Lisle, it-appeared from the confession 'of the Agents of the Irish .Direftory land -if their confession-was good for ,one point, it was good for - another), that the .French must have made .PeaCe•if•we had been-iti .dined, but -that they•were qinion that 'this sCountry was'by no means-sincere in itsproposals 4or Peakc. In-expressing his opinion so strongly , In -favour ,of fl . . Peace, he ,only , meant such a I f/eate a 9 'Ms . consistent Avid' the Honour and! Xignity -of this v Country, and -such a -one as .-•tras.•likely ,t-tcr..lbe :permanent, because 'he was .aware .that.,r.oilting. could be Jnore injurions I o ::onr ,interests, than to conclude a Peace with • to probability vofv . hting:,involved immediately a ;War. -He was afraid Ant a notion prevailed _in Ittante, :that , though -there etas a Change of . Alinisters, , .there was no Change ,41 Principles.; 2nd:the :old .Ministers .had merely stepped aside i ta-tuake-roornfor slew Oue - . Wll(l,might attempt Ast-atfieace, but viPho vould not-keep the late,Ad_ -Ininistration from regaining their seats, whenever .theytpleased.-i-aJpon all these grounds, .he con cluded with giving his assent. to -the Motion of ..tbe Noble Lord.. v - • Lord CRE2OILLE • said, that nothing could be more unfounded than the proposition . which +ad been e advan'ced,•that their Lordships had been Called upon to shut their eyes to ;the . State cf the Country,' because they were afraid_ to encounter the danger of their situation.. Their Lordships *ereinot'ealled upon 'to shut their' eyes to - the teal'situation of the - Country, - they were' merely asked not to listen tb the exaggeratedrepresehta iion which had been Made of the dangers with iathich we were threatened.._* he could tonsi tlet the present'Motion iti the 'paint of view in iYhiCh - it had been represented by Noble Lords._-_- if he could consider this as a'Motion (as it: had been stated to be) calling' upon that House to ,terpOse and crve.'ihe Country, tie should 'adopt a aliTerent line - Of Condtiti ; but viewing the sub - jed — in totallidiffetent lighVhe-ihould un - doubtediy give the ,`present Motion his decid ed negative. •It was at all times the duty o f• parliam - pt to look at the, situation of the Country,, but more !specially .so in momentsTh of alarm, Whether at" alarm Was' well-Or ill founded. But he could not avoid *considering it as a fallacy- to that their ;14ordships, by . refusing tax() into this - Committee, were •shut_ ring their eyes to'tlie condition of the. Country. For Whliever might be thefornial terms in - WhiCh the - Moab' was couched, .the real- effea of it would be, to'hoki -forth 'to the Public that they were di , ,catitfie'd with the-meristliies x.thicri had hi therto been adopted;' and that they wished to go into . thiS Committee to try all sorts of expert. menti. . This was not tbe line Of in his opinion, the Country' ought to adopt . ; _for if it had . during the whole of this arduous .contest been p reserved from roint::if the established' er.' tiers 9 tSociety.had been preserved-4f the great ob jea for which had cergentled,ll . adjii then to been olitainedythat-succ-ees.could only.boatifibuted wale vigour of Parliament, to the manly 'spirit and pet. SeYerariee of the Country, =and t 6 their - not giving way 'to idle-speculations and unfou.nded - No. Noble Lord had attempted to: state Kny ad.. vantage that would result fromzoini into thisCom gni iree;. and itifart; it' could ,lut veno oilier - tendency , than to stew. that we- were alarmed iatlthe..na ture•of our sitttat kon, • and did not know -What • re. niedy to have reeOutse co.ln commenting: upon the .arguments -whiJi-had been-urged-in-support of this Motion,. he should , with th eir Lordshi p s' permission, pass over * the observations which had been made . upon the different Expeditions which had .been .undertaken, ,:becausg he (lid, not COn'ceive them to be connedod with the present subjgt, and had' been, and Inight be ..tna4; the - suhjct Of 'partictilar Motions. — Whatever: charges..any Noble Lord .might think it r,ght to bring' forward with respell_ to those Exptdiuions, . the "MiniAters under Whose direc. / tion they had Ipen .condudc&l, would always, be tLcly to - meet and dis c uss ifiern. lie would now 1 3 :A I GQ41 to onsitlersoine:of the obeer i.ations which. i 11C1A1.14.11,1/ 41,1 . 01 ~. ,1„V. 4t4W3 , .• 10 eyee-,• last. He coefecscd that his 'curiosity was very considerably raised, : when he heard the, e Nobl*',. Lord say - he - would eXpess his opinion_ of ,the line of 'cantina 'the Colinnittee - i -opeit to adopt, nd. l certain }• never .was culiosityinore eornpletee - 4is'aPpolnted. The first ,Point which the Noble Lord Said' he' 'would Jirepose for their cone . sidelation, was that of the Tinenees of the".Codn. try.' -If - tfteir 'Lordships wished :to obtain.any . inforination with respect to the Finance,..,that, oh, je ft' could - be_ easily obtained by Motion ;-.for such was the order which had bitu i een rodtteect into that 'department,. that the most ,clear. arid satin- fattory documents could easily be laid before the - House, consequently it was not necessary to go into a Committee:lTO the. - State of the. Nation, in drder to obtain information upon that sub_ jea. , The • Noble 'Lord had noticed a defi cienty in two brandhes 'Or the Revenue, the Excise- and the Customs. `• In. the 'fir,t place, that deficiency would be More than rnade up by the general produce of the Revenue, but it would be proper to consider, whether the deficiency which had been stated could .not be easily accounted for from temporary circum stances. .Their Lordshipi must be aware that it 'arose from the defalcation of the duties upon . Malt, Beer anti Spirits, 'in consequence of the un fortunate season whiCh we had- experienced.— Without troubling 'their - Lordships more at length upon this part of the subjed, lie would now pro ceed to the second point, which the Noble Lord had said he would recommend - to the considera tion of the ComMittee. 'lle had listened with great attention .to the Noble Lord, .and, if he did not misunderstand him, :his proposition was, that: His — MAJESTY: Should be addressed to hold .out some ,consolatory , feeling to the -Peo ple. Their Lordships would probably be in clined to ask, in what manner- His M.t.iesTv . could understand such an Addres, and how it could be complied with, before the? gave their assent , to the proposition ? .A.Noble Earl (CAR—, LISLE) had made some alluSions to the New Ad ministration, and had given his a,sent-to thepro posed Committee, in order to clear up, what.ap peared to him something like a mystery •in .the change which :had taken place. He was - not aware of any mystery in. the tratisae tion. It could not - be said that His Majesty'l late Servants had retired, from any apprehension - of difficulties of the situation of the Country ; if that had been their motive, they had been rather latelretheir reSignation ; ifsthat had been their motive, they would-have-withdrawn them selves from their • situation, without making themselves responsible for a measure which some of their. Lordships seemed to think the most im politic. Something had been insinuated about a, Trick and a Juggle, and about ostensible Mini sters,• with others. behind *die -curtain influencing their conduct, The NOble Lord wive hail•matie -that observatiori (CARLISLE) had expressed a very -high opinion of the lateAderiinistratioy, and surely -could riot suspea them of adopting such a line. of condrift e for one, he begged leave to declare,. in the most, public manner, that - he was incapable of. advising anv public measures:for which he•was not personally•respon_ Bible. In his opinion, the Constitution; of the Country depended inost.esseerially upon there. spcinsibility of the pers:ms filling the great public offices. Having said -thus much, in vindication of His Majesty's late - Ministers, he thought him self bound in justice to add, that he believed those who bad succeeded - them in office were of aeting in the manner which had been insinuated. They had 'taken office as public men ought to take it, with a-,view, of rendering service to their Country, and conseently of loin credit to themselves. Another observation which .had been made - was, -that the late - Ministers had stepped aside in order to make room 'for others less_ obnoxious- to the Government, of France, and who therefore might with greater facility con elude a - Peace. He did not think that any per bon who had observed the condua - of the late Ad ministration, would :seriously charge them with such conduit; and,- in , his opinion, an Admini stration waS not - the Tess likely to - maintaio the interests of this 'Country, because they -had incurred .the, hatred .of •its inveterate-Enemye He, had upon a former occasion fully and distinet ly stated to their 'Lordships the grounds upon which he and his - Colleagues - had quitted office. He had •stated that their resignation proceeded from their inability to propose. a great public measure in the manner in which they conceiv • ed it Should , be brought forward. But if he was. of -opinion • that other subjects ,which had been.iallueled to would be more 'properly dis. cu3sed in distinft Motions, he thought so more particularly with respect to this subjea : it was one ofyectiliar difficulty and delkack, upon which no opinion had .been formed till after the most mature consideration.. Whenever the suhjed. came to _be discussed .in Parliament, be should give- every explanation upon it, and state its . bearings and.ex tent, for it was not an objea that could have been .attained; by one barren measure. They did think . that - a considerable alteration might have been made in our Laws upon this subjea; without givinguny - shock to the - Consti tution. either in Church or 'Stake ; they thought thatit.would be prafticable and necessary to sub_ .! stitute other securities, more consistent with the union and harmony which ought to exist between every part H of this - United Empire. Further than this..he.AKtuld. not at, ptdent enter, into the ques ! tion. But surely there was nothing mysterious in persons giving up their situations because they did not feel themselves enabled to bring forward those measures which they deemed' necessary for thepublie advit'ltage. IA Noble Lord (Mo CO, in, order. to rove ; , that •Minigters were not sin. cere in the Npgotiationslor - Peace at Lisle; had stated an anecdote; for vizhicli he could assure the Noble Lord 'and the Houk: there-wis not the slightesf foundation. TheNohle Lord was also mistaken, in.snpposiog..ahat . any • wish had been expresse that Ihe.NegotiatiOns at Lisle - should Not succeed. , The -• Nbble - Lord -could not have i - heard such a declaration :because in point of fact no, such declaration. had: ever b-cen wade. This _of wroeflung that had. - been • stated in another ,v a s thk.eej k tased Fhgt under o#4. i Ailen sr:ate-Or alThirs,, it was rather a fortuuaWgiroxlm spin.os,4l.t.ebis:Coutatry,__tlr.et the, aießers wishas . .forAcee 40441 . wg ltd vxpresfieci,:llitdt not been -mee..,•r!tft e4uaiiatoceeit r y cm. the ,part, of the Enetaw' f:. - .',Wlthoue relying. upon the declarations Of recorded Traitors in Ireland, he wotsld remind ' their Lordships-of one circumstapce, which was, that , ehe..;Negotiations at Lisle wereJarokep - off,. because there was a . revolution. in the Qo vernment in France, and the . new Alders of that Country did not disguise -their sentiments; but .at once put on end, .to . the Negotiation. , There was another . point upon which he wished-to trespass upon their Lordships, and that was with re,speet to 'our treatment of Neutral Nations. His Lordship then entered , at considerable length, and with his usual ability, into ! the subjed of our-dis. pine :with the Northere Nations, ;and proved -.in the clearest manner the justice of theiondua - which this Country had adopted, and •the neces sity of perseliering in :it. He did noti he said, wish to - use strong expressions to colour a Speech,_ but fie was firmly of opinion that if we gave up the principles upon which we now aced, we might at once pay off our Sailors and lay:up oar Ships, for the Navy • of this Country would be. of -no further use, either for • the pur poses of offence or defence. His Lordship con cluded wltlyeapressing his firm ,cooviaion, that • whenever the moment for Peace should arrive, His Majesty's ,present Ministers would avail themselves of it ; and, in the mean time, the best way to,obtain an honourable' Peace ,would lie, to resist such Motions as the one then before the House, and to call.forth the ReSourees, and.main rain the-Spirit of the Country. • Earl CARNARYON said, that the circurn- stances of :the changes -in the situation of the Country, those Powers having notv become our Enemies who were formerly our Allies, were such ass to call on him to support the -Motion for the Committee of Inquiry. - Lord GRENVIL.LE explained. • Lord CAMDEN expressed his concurrence in the sentiments of his-Noble Friend. The Marquis of L ANSDOI3 7 NE said, he had. heard nd .reason assigned why Ministers, after having brought the Country into the present di -femma,had abandoned it. 'The exhaustion of 'thee Country was such that we had expended our last. penny, and had nothing left L;tit . ilaper money., He knew not 'what remedy was to be proposed for the groWing evil, unless an increase in all wades, the consequence of which would be the ruin of all Anntlitants,. StockLltolders, and other descriptions' of persons, whose income could not be proportionally incMised. With respell to . the Question in discussion with the Northern Na .tions, he thought that the condo& pursued -in t 7 82 thatofavoiding4he question, was the best proof of wisdom. He had ever considered -the freedoni ofahe Seas as a matter of power, and as not capable of being ; reduced - to any positive law. He-attacked the Expedition, as calculated, if it succeeded, to weaken the natural Allies of Great. Britain, Dentnark and Sweden, and - to ; serve the Cause of France: -By the abandon- rnent of the question; he contended the. Coun - ,try lost nothing 'but the ability to prosecute a long -war, 'and this could not, after our -ex_ perienee in the. present contest ; be deemed any great misfortune. The Noble Marquis express. edhis regret, that the system of :ptiblic law was not settled; and that the principle's 'fa -Which Lora GILV*II.I.E had applied the epithet disa greeable, and of whicithe.was an admirer, were not accurately defined. In the qneition of blockade, he thought some such g e n e ra l regu l at i on necessa ry, arid he wished to extend it to another point also, the establishment of Cartels. He hoped, this Country would anticipate France in these li beral ideas. He concluded-by expressing his as sent to the Motion of -the Noble -Earl, and by urging the necessity of an immediate Peace. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that from his experience of the prOceed.itigs of Parliatueot Icl he ird v , ,tatyle only .not, unacquainted ?With, Motions of, this to be, to furnish effea of whicha theatre he bad fo ' rtiled a i lw spl a a y; ofofiin the talents of every individual,,, upon any subje& which might suit his faney, or strike his mind, but which he' had 'never seen lead to the full mid calM discussion of any ptirricular subjed, which producing declanvtions on general Inquiry, uni. formly prevent all particular Inquiry. That this would •be the result Of agreeing 'to the pre sent: Motion, *appeared clear from the Speeches • - of Me Noble *Lords . who' 'support . it. At One time - speak of Inquiry into the Ferrol Expedition, at another into thu ctatO of ;he Finances, and-at- another into the - Code of.. Ne utral Law and its exercise; The result would be, that if a generalltiquiry were voted, no particular or .efficient Inquiry could be -made ; for this must always be the effea of ,debating at large, mis cellaneous matter is always introduced, and no . impartial-decision can he come to on any parlieu_ lar subjea._ If - any 'Noble Lord 'wishes inquiry to be .made into any particular subjea, let him bring it forward, and let it undergo a Calm : individual discussion. Such - general debaribg as this Motion would. produce, would confound the.mind 'of the most profound politician.. • One subjeit had been mentioned in the course of Debate, which it was agreed on• all handS oeght tint to be mingled With any other., .He meant the State of the ;Church inlreland: a sobjed which, no* that the 'XingdOmSare united, must involve in it the State of the Church in England: " Another subjea' had been much dWelt 'upon, the Law of Nations as regarding 'Neutral Powers, - and 'ldeidrines , had been held.out by a Noble Marquis'iLANsDOWNrh Which would go to preticribi a tx.tw law on this sub : jeCt to all the NationS ofEurope, but A law which would more particularly a l rea' this Country. — :He. would pot tioW debate this sUbjed,. a$ it had • been but vaguely and loosely stated'; but he . would aekonwledge thar • he was *surprized, somethings whiCh had been said; upon it, imply. ing. that there is no, recogniUd Principle of 'this , ;Law. fSe might ye said, that.there,is cause indivi.duals, • like Nations, when their pas- Sions are inflamed, break tlirougn _established ,plineiples; ,A - ie•ehallenged .a fair, and calm dis cussion of the subjed, both on /he...indice. and policy of the _Neutral .Code-as established, aod on the exercise of -it by ,this Country. He wished fhe Noble Lord would appoint a day for -the discussion. The - tights claimed by _ this Country, he believed, no 'man would dispute, and as to the exercise- of them, he believed, that no decisions could . be more reopened by Foreign Nations than those of our Court. of Admiralty, 'before which principally such Causes conic. : How_ -ever it was a thing due to the . Coniitry; -and more particularly due to the brave Officers and Sailers in our Navy,, that this point should be cleared up and fi nally settled. He invited the discussion of ir. As' to 'the polity.of maintaining by force What he conceived -to be the right of this Country by the Law of Nations,- that is a matter of sepa rate dismission ; but the. right must govern the policy, not the- policy the right. The Marquis of OUCKLVGII.I2IT _supported the Motion, on the ground that though he had had occasion to express - his opinion . on most .of the measures which it was the object of the Mo tion to inquire into, and though lie still adhered to that opinion, he saw many -rea4onz in present circumstances, for going - into this Equiry,.among which the most ROWerittl Was, .that the new Ministry do not possess .the confidence of the Country. Lord ELDON made a few observations on the Law of Nations, 'as regarding Neutrals, and de tendiog the practice of it in this Cottrttry. ,Earl .M 0 IRA spoke in explanation. Lord AUCKLAND made a few observations against .the:Motion. .said, it 'would be easy to prove, that 'the statement of . the Noble 'Lord reSpetling the ireteased Debt of tire - Country since the commancementmf .die War, was very much exaggerated, and that instead of 300.Mi1. lions, it did no: attount to more th'3n 130 Mil. lions. He .said, that, however, he .wished to knew 'something more of the Cause of the Resignation of the late Ministers: It ap. [seared to him that a considerable degree of .mystery hung over that .transtteliott„ . ,and in his mind; their coliduet seemed ,like that of 'a neral who, in the hour of daoger and on the field of battle, should get into a post.chaise and drive off, leaVing his ',Troops behind. Earl SPENCER said, that feeling himself pledged to a great Constitutional measure, which he conceived to be essential to the nationat inte. rest, and finding that he could not carry it, he i bad felt it his duty to resign the office which he .held, and that this was . the sole cause of his Re signation. ,Egrl FtI7,IVILLIAI supported the Motion, andientered at considerable length into a discus. Sion of the Neutral Code of Law, the right of search, and the propriety of employing force .in assertion of this right. He reviewed the condura held by this• Country to the Armed Neutrality in 1780, and compared .it with the condufl at pre. sent pursued, which he argued to be destruaive of the ComMerce, and prejudicial to - the interests of.the Country. . The Alarqujs of LANSDOW'NE referring to what had fallen from Lord FiTzwi ',LIAM, said, that the claims set up by the Armed Neutrality in AA:b . had . been uniformly denied by this Country, though.nevzr resisted by force. Lard GREW if ILLE -said a few word, on the same subje . ra. Lard. HOBART said, that placed in the 'Situa tion in which he was, he.felt rather embarrassed how to deliver . his sentiments on the .Motion.-- He had but lately.accepted anardeous,oiiice under the Crown, but it had been bestowed upon him from no personal solicitation ; aud-ardtious as it might be, His Majesty's late Ministers hay. ing_ thought it their duty to, resign their employ. ,vents, • _and he being called by .His ,MAJWTY to that - Office,. he had thought it 'his duty both to his King ...and to his - Country, to accept of it. Hii situation was not certainly such aone as a person consulting their own ease or .comfott would have chosen to, place themselves in. A Noble. Marquis, whom he highly respelled, had said, • that:the new Ministry -do not possess the confidence, of tl i te Country, but, lie d hoped that he should have, and he thought 'himself entitled to . a _fair confidence, till his condo& should shesv that he deserved to ,forfeit it. He claimed for himself and his Colleagues that con. fidence, and that they should only he judged by the House and the Country, from their actions. He avowed-hia, approbation of the Expedition to the Baltic. lit professed the strongest desire for Peace,,aodhoped that the siheerity of this.clesite would not now be questioned, till he shouldhasc an opportunity of evincing it. 'He,. for himself and his' Colleagues, asserted. that their conduct should be regulated by no privat and secret in fluence, but be the result of their own opinions . and principles ; that if it should be approvvd of by. the Country, to them alone: shall the merit be attributable—and tharshould they unfortunately, be disipproved of, to them would all they blame be due. He opposed'ihe Motion. . The -Mike 4f BEDFORD .aberted shortly to what Lerd .Au.c K LAND had said respecting the increase of Debt occasioned by the War, which. lke.contended-,to t bincotteft, and gave his sup. port to the .Motion. Laixd Air epti,s?f the Earl .of. DE it BY, and'; Lord DA R N ET , . seyeralylp.oke in exptoration., „l c lite,Hoine'diy,,ided on the, Motion : • . Contents, 2; . '‘.. -tfro4ies, 3 ,Non-conkepcs, PfP>.;iVS, 28 107 I's • • ! 2 ,; NA %it APritYl 87 Lord C4s-r E It .GII, M caltilis and govt.. , other Members t•he' HQUiit '9l Commons, brought , vp 7 .lhe, 4jll ,for, con ti the Suwert , ,ion of the .114beas Cyrpus Aci,fOr three .rnanths in :)I . l4ll.:MiArci4 ;Law 13ill arld the _