The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-11 00:00:00

ins of the boroughs, he said that they were the rotten parts of the State, hut that they must be preserved. They were like a diseased limb, which adhered to the body and was obliged to be left remaining, in order to preserve life. Amputate that limb, and death must follow. Then came Mr. Pitt, who had adopted souls of his father's opinions. When he wan in opposition he brought forward two plans of Reform ; but Mr. Pitt entertained a strong notion of the value ei these boroughs. He alao was for disfranchise ment. One of his plans would have ifiafranchised thirtv-six boroughs, and he would have divided the seventy-two Members among the great towns and counties. But there was this difference between his plata and the present one, that he proposed to esta blish a fund, in order that the franchise might be pur chased front any borough which did not tseiah to retain it, privilege. There was also one aing(abte clause in his Bill, that no town was to be enframehised against its wish. t.7er tainly, in those days that provision was not wanted. IHear, hear.) Here he was for keeping el the rights of parties inviolate, and he (Lord Mansfield ) thought that no Minister would have done wrong to have copied him in this point. Then came Mr. Flood's plan of Reform, of which Mr. Fox said, that he did hot so touch approve of it as of that of his Right Hon. Friend. [The Noble Lord here read a long extract front it speech of Mr. Fox's, which passed a high sealogitun upon Mr. Pitt's plan.] Whether the present Bill deserved to be so characterized, he would leave to the Noble toed oppo site. He objected to the Bill upon principle, and ho alteration which it could receive in Committee could ef face his objections, He certainty thought that if the 'rights of boroughs were to he sloes taken away, no property which was held under a ;,barter from the Crown could be safe ; and he would even go further and say, that no species of property could be safe, if this Bill passed into a law. Indio(' he would go further, and a its that all property would be affected by it. The union between eights and property generally would be dissolned. When he looked to the preamble of the Bill, and saw that :it was " expedient to deprive certain boroughs of their rights," it was the infirmity of his mind to conceive that the greatest tyrant that ever existed could not proceed to au act of injustice without some attempt at palliation, either he attempted t doubt the existence of the right, ur he imputed some delinquence to his victim. —(Hear, hear, hear.) On a former ocettaion admitted that rights were removable on compensation, un tiae occasion of an emergency, add he 113 , 1 given the Scotch heritable jurisdiction as art example of it. The evils which this Bill was introduced to remedy, were incompatible with good Government, and particularly obnoxious to the Parliament of Enaland, where such feudal rights had been obliterated. Yet the object of that right was stated to be "for remedying the incenvenierci e ,a that have arisen, and may arise from the tnuittplicity of heritable jurisdiction, for making satisfaction to the proprietors thereof; and for restoring to the Crown the power of jurisdiction originally and properly belonging thereto, according to the Constitution." Here, therefore, were the rights justly odious in the view of the Parliament then legislatine, rather (obtained by a prescriptive than by an unquestionabl e title, and yet the rights of the proprietor wete ac - knowledged and received satisfaction. Now that was one of those acts to which the great improvement that Scotland has made, is to be ascrib,d ; but to come nearer home, they had heard a speech from the Throee in October, 1831, which, after recom• mending the subject of Reform to the serious considea ration of Parliament, expresSett his Majesty's wish for such an improvement in the representation as should he found necessary for securing to his people the full enjoyment of their rights. Now, constitutionally speaking, that was the speech of his Majesty's Ministers; but was it their intention that the rights of the poor people should be main tamed, and that the rights of individuals of which that people was cotneosed, should be trampled uneler foot': He begged to state, that in adverting to this plan of Reform he was not attempting to give an (pinion as to their merits. His intention was merely to protect rights from aggres sion, not to point out any manner in which these rights were to be acquired by the Legislature. If it were the wish of Parliament to acquire those rights, it might then be made the subject of future discussion, but he was now imploring for justice. But if all close horoughs could be disfranchised, would it he any particular advantage ? The advantage dist sons of Peers should find a seat in the other House of Parliament, in which they might acquire a facility of public speaking, and prepare themselves for the func,ions they were to perform in that House, was not confined to them as individuals, but extended also to the State. This was so eloquently illustrated by the Noble Earl that he would not now again allude to it. At the pre sent moment, the interests of the empire were not confined to Great Britain alone. We had extensive colonial and foreign possessions which were not directly represented. When discussions were to take place on the state of the West Indies, the renewal of the India or Hank charter, would it not be fair that these interests should be indirectly represented, and that the House of Commons should have men of experience and infor mation to guide them in their decisions ? Brat such then having just returned from India, i. might Le per fectly impossible for them to represent a large eonsthueney. There might he a clamour, as at present, for a indiscriminate abolition of all monopolies, and the voters might require from the candidates pledges that such men could not conscientiously give, and those candidates would be preferred who would make the most liberal offers. He did not give his opinion as to the propriety of abolishing monopolies, but simply he would express his belief, that as at present consti tituted, the decisions of Parliament would be founded on information and evidence, but that in a reformed Parlia ment these cases would he prejudged. It had been assumed, and not so often contradicted as it ought to have been, that the representatives of close boroughs were invariably the tools of the Ministry. Now the reverse was no toriously the case, and there were instances in which a public man had been rejected by his constituents in towns or counties on account of his political conduct, who afterwards had not disdained to re-enter the House of Commons by the narrow portal of a close borough, and there re-asserted his former opinions. What were public men to do?- Were they to deceive their constituents, or 'retract their opinions? There was another course to he adopted—giving way to public opinion ; not that opinion for which he, with the Noble Earl opposite, entertained so high a respect, but public clamour : and he could conceive a public man of splendid wit, who in eat ly youth had conceived plans of the most extensive Re form, which, in his mature age, he had thought unsafe or impracticable, afterwards called to the councils of his sovereign, urged by the voice of the people, echoed by such representatives as this Bill would give, and, goaded by a licentious but powerful Press, he might be driven forward in the course of wild innovation, with a celerity by no means proportioned to his opinions or wishes — (Hear)—experiencing at the close of his public life regrets not less painful, because studiously concealed, that his ambition had been gratified, but that he had sacrificed the public weal, and that the impartial historian would not associate his name with the growing glory and prosperity of his country, but rather ascribe to him, and the measures he proposed, the beginning of her d cay. He had hitherto spoken of the ef fects of this Bill as rendering the House of commons more democratical. But he had heard it stated for the purpose of disarming objection, that the House would in fact be rendered more aristocratical.—(H ear , hear, hear.) The question then was, what would be the consequence of their Lordships rejecting this Bill ? He admitted that that was rather a difficult- question to solve, but he could not think that any apprehensions of danger could justify their Lordships in a dereliction of their duty,(Hear hear.) The rejection of the Bill, in his opinion, ought not t.-) he followed by any declaration of the readiness of their Lordships to agree to a plan of moderate Reform. To those words no definite idea could be attached. To individual* such declarations might be painful; ita public assemblies they were subject to danger and liable to misinterpretation. What, he would ask, would. then follow, if he were to believe in those threats which had been so plentifully held out by the:Press, in language most gross and libellous as it respected, indi viduals, but worse than libellous, almost treasonable to the Sovereign and to the whole body of their Lordships' House, whose existence was threatened with destruction ? These libels, of the most gross description, had been brought under the notice of His Majesty's Attorney -Gene ral, but the parties who had composed them had had the good fortune to escape his censure, except in those eases in which his fiscal sensibility was awakened by the infringement of the stamp duties.—(Hear.) In the metropolis violence of anothe^ description had taken pl ace , such as the demolition of windows and so on'; hut those were trifles compared with the serious insurrections that had taken place in different parts of the country. But be had an opinion that those insurrections would never have permanent success, if Government did its duty. When he was anticipating, last Session, the dangers to which he had adverted, he expressed a confidence in Ministers which he was sorry to say was now very much impaired. But he trusted that the lamentable outrages which had taken place at Bristol and Nottingham would open their eyes, and that they would see it was not enough to deprecate violence, but that they must show 13, activity proportioned to the danger. This was edered the more necessary, because persons certainly get having opinions against Ministers but very much their suaportere and admirers of Reform, had agitated the public mind, and, contrary to all sense and reason, had persuaded them, that although Ministers and his Majest ) could not abet these acts ,o fviolettafts, .yet that th ey wou ld be viewed by - them th With . A 3 to the danger to be anpreliended feoin political associations, it was known per fc tie We'll they were illegal, and he thought that his Majesty's Ministers were noir 'aware of the necessity of putting a stop to their proceedings. It was true that the present plan _had riot only received the sanction of the Com mons twice, but had been recommended by the speech from 'he Throne. With respect to that speech, rhos gh coining from the Throne, there could be nos donist in the public mind that it seas the speech rf Ministers; and although he Was perfectly' prepared to do his iluty by giving his vote for the rejection cr.'. this bill, he could not suppose the rejection would lead, as wee stated ie that speech, to a final settlement of that etwestion. Those who were in fa vour of moderate Reform, deeply deplored the agitation of this sailestion ; but all concurred in one opinion, that that question could not be settled but by a legislative enact ment. He should be exttearery happy if a legislative en actment by this Bill toteld by possibility settle this question but the prseett will abrogated the Constitution, and all preecriatti - ee rights, and, therefore, it was impossible the Matter could rest there. He, however, agreed entirely with the wish of the people that it Would he most desirable to settle the question. Some measure, therefore, should he brought forteard that would satisfy the country. What that me:etire should be, it was not his duty, nor that of their Lordships, to point out.— (Hear, hear.) On the introduction of this Bin, however, hie Majesty's Ministers had made a declaration that they would stand or fall by it, or one founded upon the same prin. ciple ; it' they still abided by that declaration, they must be answerable for the consequences, in which not only they, but the whole country will be into!rx?, He trusted, however, if the present 1-Jil! Were rejected, as he hoped it would he, that the delay afforded to them !:y that rejection Wouhi - eheble them in another ses sion to bring ferweeeil eome other and more modified Inca eure ; or, it' following the example of others, considering the extensive scheme they had now in contemplation—a scheme that contemplated an entire division of the Consti tution—following the example of those Ministers who ad vocated the union of Scotland with this country, they were to appoint a Commission to see what could he dune for the interests of the three component peels of the British empire, then he should th:nle some Bill founded on their recommendation might be introduced. But if any measure squally efficient, or as they would sly on that side of the Houle teauey unjust, was ever again to be presented to their Lordship, he trusted that they would, never allow the rights of the meenest individual in the country, of whom they were the guardians and protectors, to be thus arbi trarily torn away, for if they did, their Lordships might depend upon it the next thing that would be infringes upon would be their own rights--(Hear, hear)—and they would then become the impitied victims of that sys tem of spoliation which they themselves had sanc tioned.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of HARROWBV and Lord Coeveetr. rose to gether, but the farmer gave way. Lord COLVILLE said that be had appeared against the Bill on the last occasion by giving a silent vote. He gave that vote with regret, and he had now no alternative but to orVer tie Bill his decided and open oppositio n . ll^ had hoped that when another measure of the na ture brought forward on the former occasion, was again in roduced into the House, it would have been such as he could have voted in favour of, but this Bill was equally as bad as the last. Admiring the talents of the Nolile Earl at the bead of His Majesty's Government, he could not but fed, indeed, very sorry, that he should have had to differ from him in the conclusion come to on this im portant subject. As he did not b lieve it possible by any amendment in Committee to make this measure a proper one, he thought it better to pay in the first instance non content for the motion that it should be read a second time. Consequently he felt bound to oppose the second reading. The Noble Lord made some further observations, which were inaudible from the low tone of voice in which he spoke, and the confm•ion which prevailed during his speech. Lord HARROWBY rose to address the House under peculiar disadvantages, but he would endeavour to occupy no more time than he considered absolutely necessary. The Noble Earl's speech at the head of his Majesty's Govern ment, upon the introduction of this Bill into the House, could not but be fresh in the minds of their Lord ships. It was one of the finest specimens of oratory, and contained some of the most powerful arguments he had ever heard addressed to the House. In many parts of the speech he - completely concurred ; from Aber parts he entirely dissented ; but lie did not think himse called upcn to reply at length on this occasion to those parts in which he differed from the Noble Earl. He thought that he had stated sufficient to have shown the grounds on which his vote was to be different now to what it had been before; but in the course of this day, it appeared to him that bad not been the case ; and if he were not to be called upon to answer for being the supporter or the opposer of this mea sure, he felt he was now called upon to answer for himself. flaying no claim, either from distinction or from talent, to attract their Lordships' attention, he could only hope to have any weight in what he stated with their Lordships, from the belief they might entertain of the rectitude of hia inten tions, and that the inconsistency of which Noble Lords had accused him, resolved itself into the same end by vary ing means according to the variation of circumstances. In corning to the conclusion to which lie had done he was not so blind as to be unaware of the obloquy to which he was likely to subject himselc. No one could adopt any decided line of politics without being open to obser vation ; oor could any one take a middle course without laving himself open to attacks. On all sides had he been the subject of attack ; and it was only before their Lordships, he had to say a word or two in explanation, and per haps in defence. By some lie had been called a deserter; by others he had been called a treacherous friend. Those charges he could answer in a few words. In the first place, before a man could he a deserter, he must have been under some discipline.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the mat place, before an individual could be a treache rous friend, he must have professed friendship—neither of which had been his case (Loud cheers.) What he had stated last year had been particularly referred to by some who had addressed the House. What he had said was not that he was against any Reform Bill, but that he opposed the second reading, because it would beimpossible in Committee to make the 13dI what in his opinion it ought to be. He had endeavoured to make the beat alterations in it he could, and yet he bail failed to make it at all satisfactory to his mind. But Noble Lords were to recollect that what might appear to an individual to be imps hie at one time might not appear to be so at another; or that that which appeared to present in- superable difficulties to one might be made easy to another.—(Cheers.) He would, however, c All on any individual who would take that Bill fairly into his hand to say, whether the view he (Lord H.) took of the whole question as appeared from that speech, could be the view of a man who waa de'ermined, under all cir- curnstances, to resist the further consideration of a 13111 for Reform.—(Loud and continued cheering.) All he could say was, that if it did present that interpretation, it was an intepretation entirely at variance with the feeling of his mind at the moment, as many Noble Lords surrounding bitn well knew—(Loud and continued cheers)—and indeed, as a Noble Duke near to him - bad just reminded him. An expression he made- use of at the mornialt at which the second reaAling of the last Bill was negatived, was, " We have dove well this time, but it will not do for us to repeat the satne thing again."—(Loud cheers.) It %vas well known to many 'Noble Lords that he (Lord H.) . had actually prepared a resolution, and was prepared to move it, for the purpose of taking into considera tion next Session of Parliament a plan of Reform fur correcting the abuses of the representation, and that be was upon the very point of moving it, and Was deterred only from doing so by feeling that from neither side of the House was it likely to receive support, and therefore he thought that the moving of it, in such circumstances, would do more harm than good.—(Much cheering.) What was his view upon another point? Was it not that the peculiar duty of the House was to give time for consideration, and improvement?—(Hear, hear.) That time had Lot been lost—it had produced an effect, though not exactly the effect he had hoped for. It had not produced that degree of re-action throughout the country which he believed the expectation of, alone, had induced their Lordships to re ject the Bill.—(Cheers.) The Bill had been re-intro duced to their Lordships' House, and certainly with some considerable alteration. (Hear.) The Noble Earl, however, at the head o! his Majesty's Government had not quite correctly represent e d him when he stated that his objections to the measure had been removed. What he had sail was, that they had been so far removed in point of principle as to make it fit, in his mind, that he should Tote for the passing of the Bill into Committee. He bad never said that all his objections to the Bill were removed, nor bad he ever thought so, but some of the objections had been removed, and he thought it was abso lutely neetviary to have a system of Reform introduced. It had shown them that there was still a considerable and undiminished anxiety for a change in the repreeto. tenon of Parliament—that theft Was in the minds of those who before eoinced no anxiety for a change, an ,pinion that it was now necessary._ He did not show this with a view to make such change, an would Ise productive the dangers that ni:ett he apprehended by the proposed Pill, but the question would be by what means, seeing that the Bill had been twice elopted by the House of Commons, they could choose between conflicting dangers. He would refer them to the petitions and addresses presented against the Bill, scarc.ly o ne of which did not state that it was desirable to pre vent such :abuses as Slionid be found, on consideration, to exist in the rekesentation of the country. A Noble Duke tvoidd doubtless draw a different conclu sion from his respecting the Leicester petition, in which it was prayed that the House would not il n in st in it g uti: i m f of the coonte _([j ean ) ultimately pass any Bill which was dangerous to th e Co He took th e , e d reading of thet to ill. But be the to distinguish se coti i h n ow fa w v e o r u e r they of between the plans of those who were for a conside rable Beform and of those who were in favour of a less extensive one, without going into Committee, with a view to satisfy the hopes of one party - , and to allay the feat! of the other ? He saw no ether mode but by going into Committee.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But tiny were met again by a declaration that if they allowed the second reading, they adopted the principle of the Bill.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Now the eenerti principle was, that there must be a reform in the House of Commons. If the opinions of the country were divided, as he had stated, that was, between two different degrees of Reform, was there any man on earth who could deny that principle 't --(Loud cheers.) Was any man prepared to say there should he no change? —(Loud cheers.) Bat Ise tvonld take the prin ciple another way, and that was on the preamble, Which stated that it was desirable to enfranchise large towns, to disfranchise decayed boroughs, and to increase the constituency. Why what plan of Reform was that? What plan could there be but that? The Noble Duke (Buckingham) would tell him that his plans did not include disfranchisement or enfranchisement, so that it appeared that they were coming to fractions after all.— (Cheers and laughter.) When he came to a half dozen boroughs in Cornwall, and found that the Noble Duke, instead of allowing them to return ten Members, allowed them to elect but two amongst them, surely without being thin skinned he might call that disfranchisement (Laughter and cheers.) It was not their game to say they should exclude those boroughs merely because they were rotten boroughs, but that through those boroughs, by means of nomination, individuals got into Parliament—perhaps the best persons to get into Parliament—who could not get in by any other means. He should like to know the difference be tween five boroughs and five different sets of consti tuency—and then he should like to know how any person would dissect such a cluster ?—(Loud Cheers.) He wished anxiously to appeal to the tone and temper of the House—a tone and temper in which the Noble Earl (Grey) had evidently participated in his opening speech at the beginning of this discussion.—(Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that the Noble Earl had felt the immense im portance of the question, and he agreed with that Noble Earl in the necessity of bringing time question to a speedy, and, as far as depended upon him, to a sa tisfactory conclusion.—(Hear, Lear, hear.) Instead of the House being to'd that no amendments would be received, which was stated on a former occasion, and which was in his opinion the cause of the rejection of the first measure, they were assured that every pro position would meet with a cool and calm consideration. If they went into committee in teat tone and temper, much difficulty would be saved. But they had been told that they had to deal with clamour and intimidation. There had been much of those last year, but their Lordships had refused to yield to them, and they did right ; and why should they imagine that clamour and intimida tion should have more effect upon them now than they had six months ago ?—(Cheer:.) What they should appeal to was to their convictions that they were more likely to enjoy the effects of good order and good Government, if they brought the question to a speedy settlement, than if they attempted to postpone it. He had stated on a former occasion that it was not enough for a Government to be good in itself, unless those who were capable of judging, were also of opinion that it was so. And if erroneous opinions were formed, it was the duty of the Legislature to correct them. But he would ask what was the nature of the danger with which they were threatened ? It was not civil war, neither was it rebellion ; but it was that sort of danger witich a Government in the performance of its duty could effectually and immediately destroy. It was that danger arising from an estranged feeling, the want of that cordial ca-operation between tve people and its Govern ment, which alone could give effect to the stability of the country. It was the want of that respect for Parliament which proceeded from the rejection of a measure which had been twice demanded from the throne and twice demanded by the House of Commons. He wished to consider the situation in which they were now placed. In a word, they had now come to a state of things in which the House of Commons stood denounced by a large majority within itself as unfit to exercise the functions for which it was constituted.—(Hear, hear.) In this state of things they lad, therefore, but a choice of evils. It was undoubtedly, a dangerous measure to adopt the Bill ; but it was no less dangerous to reject it.—(Hear.) He did not believe that the people would derive any solid advantages, any real practical benefits from the reform of the representation.—(Hear, hear.) In whatever way the fate of the Bill should be decided, the House of Commons had rendered itself less capable of discharging its duties, than it would have been it no change had been proposed. Whether it be now reformed, or remain constituted as it was at present, its character had received a fatal blow on the day on which that Bill was first passed by it; and that blow sank incurehly deep when the Bill came twice re commended front the Throne.—( Hear.) There remained for their Lordships, therefore, as he had already said, only a chance of evils. If they did not allow the Bill to go into Committee, to what other practicable conclusion could they arrive? The Bill of Reform which had been alluded to, and a notice of which had been given, might be better or worse than the present one, and the Noble Earl opposite (Grey) had expressed no opinion upon it. He reminded the House, them efore, of the inutility of rejecting the present Bill altogether. If they did so, the Noble Earl might bring in another, and under circumstances too, which might make the consideration of it perfectly useless, and, therefore, he wished it to go into Committee. But the Noble Earl might resign his situation, and a new Government would then be appointed ; and he asked, - - - - would the country get a Reform by the change ?—(Loud Cheers.) Let his Majesty rest his choice where he would, but it would not stand with the Commons a week. This Majesty might be advised to dissolve the Parliament, and a new Parliament would be called during a state of public excitement infinitely beyond what prevailed at the last election—(Cheers)—made more violent by the strong hopes that would be raised, and the people would he equally anxious for Parliament , ry Reform, not only equally extensive with that which might now be granted, hut probably more so.—(Cheers.) He asked, would not Government be pledged to bring in a Reform Bill, and who could then unite opinions to such a degree as to bring forward the Bill and hope to receive such support as would overpower the opposition of party ? That was a desperate hope indeed. But the Bill now introduced, in order to have any chance of being effectual, might be so amended, a, to be perfectly operative. If he were still required to persevere in his resistance, he should say he hardly knew in what sense that resistance was to be understood. If he were to raise an army, of what use would its operations he, if the right wing were commanded by the High Bailiff of 0:61 Sarum and the left by the M iyor of Gatton ?---(Lotul cheers and Laughter.) He entreated their Lordships to allow the Bill to go into Committee, and to bend their minds in that Committee to effect the objects most beneficial to the country, by making great amendments in the Bill, and to make all such amendments as they might think were reconcilable with the great principl es of its preamble. In so doing, he implored them not to give too great a preponderance either to the agricultural, manufacturing, or commercial interest. They should take care that they did not add so much to one interest, as to overeet the balance of all. fie agreed in the opinion that those interests, however at different times they might appear to differ with each other, were essentially united, and he was firmly convinced that the country would go on prosperously if each had its proper share in the representation. He objected moat particularly to that influence which was found in low constituency, and which was acted on by every demo cratic agitator, whose object might be to g e t i nto the House of Commons. The question with him was, whe ther they should legislate in favour of the Bill, or of the interests of the people. All history and all his experience hail shown him th a t w h en the tem porary will of the people had been acceded to, t h e i r in terests had been much neglected. He objected to make that temporary will the dictator of the Parliament, and he en treated the House not to giant it. Feeling as h t , did that it was painful to incur the disapprobation of per iwig possessing those political opinions which he Advocated, he must state that be foresaw t h e ‘,onseq uences , b u t he was determined to pursue straight-forward course. His great consolation was, 'hat, in endeavouring to discharge his duty to the best ,f his ability, no pe'ascri private bias, had ever ope ated upon him.—(Cheers.) No consideration of persons •houll ever induce him again to take any politleal step, and therefore it was without hope and without !ser that he had pursued his present course. He had • little confidence in his own judgment —death had one by ne deprived him of those whom he had loved; but weak as his judgment was, he. felt himself bound to sacrifice the applause, which it Was hot object to attain, but which he had obtained for the part he took on a former occasion. lie was prepared to incur the censure that might follow the part he was now taking, conscious that he was pursuing a eourse which was called for be circumstanc e s — w i s hi ng to retire i n to th a t private life "from which be had been dragged by the present question, which had absorbed all his attention, and of giving his opinion upon it; and if he found he had been instrumental in bringing to a favourable hoole that great question, he should consider himself greatly overpaid. (The Noble Earl sat down amidst loud cheers. ) The Duke of WELLINGTON—Your Lordships may more easily conceive than I can ea - Trees, the shame and p lin I feel in rising to addresayolir Lordahips. After having been joined for several years in the Government with the Noble Duke who has just addressed your Lordships,— after having heard with much satisfaction, the speech he last year addressed to your Lordships on an occasion si rail it to the present,—after having then acted under the Noble Lord's advice, in voting against the proposition then before us, and after your Lordships experiencing the same satisfaction with myself at hearing that speech, you may conceive my pain and mortification at the' contrast th e speech just addressed to your Lordships presents to that we then heard. lam oblted to draw a comparison between these two speeches, in order to prevent, if possible, the mischiefs which, in my opinion, may result from the House feeling the same confidence in the Noble Earl this year, as it did when be addressed your Lordships last year. .51y Lords, lam sure that my Noble Friend will not feel that I am treating him with personal disrespect in adverting to the important topics of that speech. He commenced on that occasion by stating that the question was, whether he would read the Bill then before you a second time, that is to say, whe• ther you would vote in approval of its principle. Upon that occasion my Noble Friend addressed to you these words : The principle and object of this Bill are to make the Constitution more democra tic. Look at the consequences when that assembly, which has already become the chief governing power of the State pretends not only to be the governing power, but the Government itself, and suffers itself to be guided by other assemblies of other descriptions, such as had been recently formed in the North, and espe cially at Birmingham ; what I ask is the condition of a Government that suffers such proceedings ? What can we expect from a Legislative Assembly so con stituted and directed ?" :lly Noble Friend, after ad dressing you in a speech to which we all listened with great delight for two hours, elute at last to this conclusion. "We are told that we have no option but to take the Bill as it is—to adopt at once the propo sition which is to consign us and our posterity to a new form of Government which no man has ever ventured to tell us will be practicable, and which, if practicable, would, in my opinion, be mischievous." Such was the Noble E.rl's opinion last year upon the Bill then before us. Your Lordships have just heard his opinion upon a Bill which the Noble Earl opposite has told us is as efficient a Bill as that of • the last year, which we all know to be the same Bill, and which my Noble Friend has himself said this night he does not think can produce any of the beneficial effects contemplat, d. Now, what are the grounds upon which my Noble Friend has changed his opinion ? The first ground is, that this Bill has come front the House of Commons a second time passed by a large majority. Now, I beg your Lordships to recol lect what was stated, I believe, by the Noble Earl himself, but certainly by the Noble Baron (Wharucliffe) sitting at the table, with respect to the construction of the present House of Commons. The Noble Baron, in the speech he delivered to the House in March, 1831, pre vious to the last general election, foretold to the Govern ment the consequence of having a general election under such circumstances, stating in the strongest terms that the effect would be to return a number of delegates as Members of Parliament, and to place the House of Lords in the situation in which it stood last year, and in which it now stands. When the event thus prophesied has oc curred, the natural thing is to call upon Ministers to place things in the same situation they were before, to address his Majesty to remove those Ministers from his counci's, or otherwise give this country and the House an opportunity of having a fair discussion, of having a House of Commons which was not a meeting of delegates. That such is the case now, there can be no doubt, and as you have had two decisions upon this Bill, so you may have ten ; hut the question is, whether the House can sanction by its vote principles which it conceives arc inconsistent with the interests of the country, • because the House of Commons is in the state it now is—a state which certainly presents us with a difficulty, hut I trust only a temporary difficulty, which might be removed. The next 'point dwelt upon by the Noble Earl was the opinion of the country. Now, my Lords, there can be no doubt whatever that, in 18'29 and the com mencement of 1830, there was no opinion in the country in favour of Parliamentary Reform.—(Laughter and cheers.) I may advert to it now as a matter of history, and, I say, it wr.s admitted in the ether House at the time that aut•h was the fact. The French revolution and the insurrection in Belgium occurring at the commencement of the elections of 1830, and creating considerable excitement, no doubt influenced the opinion of the succeeding Raba fluent to a considerable extent, and that Parliament wee prepared to pass a moderate Bill of Reform, and even :greed to the first Bill by a majority of one. But the Noble Lords opposite, not content with that, dissolved Parliament, and assembled again under circum stances of excitement, such as never before existed.— (Loud cries of Heir,) That excitement influenced the succeeding elections, and has continued to a very con siderable degree from that day to this. But how is it now kept up? By a strong opinion that it is the wish of the King that Parliament should be reformed in the manner set forth in this Bill.—( Hear, hear.) Now for toy own part I do not believe one word of any such thing.—(A laugh.) My opinion is, that the King follows the advice of his servants, but the use which has been made of his name will render it very difficult for us to do otherwise than to agree to same Reform in Parliament. But I say it is a mistake to suppose that the King has an interest in this question ; and as soon as the country is undeceived in that respect, its opinion will be ceme right on this subject. I will go farther, and say that lam thoroughly convinced, that, notwithstandi ng the excitement of the last year, notwithstanding the pre sent date of the House of Commons, I entertain no doubt that if the King's mind were altered, the Noble Earl opposite would not be able to pass the Bill. I hope your Lordships will attend to this fact, in con sidering all these reports respecting the prevailing senti ment in England on the subject of this Bill. The opinion of the gentlemen of the country in general—of the landed property in general—of property in general—and of the learning of the country, is against the Bill, which is supported on the other hand, first by the Noble Lords op posite, and then by their adherents in the country, who are not very numerous, by nearly all the Dissenters, and all those persons who have hopes of obtaining votes and distinctions, if it pass into a law. I speak from a knowledge of many of the southern counties of Eng land, and from the reports as to the other parts of the country ; the sentiments in fact of the real English gentle man—of the great proportion of the yeomanry and middle _ _ of those even of London, who are apprehensive of • the Bill.—(Hear.) I state what I firmly believe to be the opinion of the country. But the Noble Lords op posite will say that they hear nothing of this at public meetings--this is very true, because the gentlemen of the country believed, if they went to public meetings and the mob were to attack them, they would be protected in committing outrage. There were anomalies in this Bill without number, and I have this morning received a note showing the anomalous results from a paper which has been produced in the House of Coin. mons, even since the Bill had been sent up to that House. I show this for the purpose of convincing your Lordships that little can be done in Commi ttee to enable us su ffi ciently to amend this Bill. The Noble Duke then read a long extract from Parliamentary Papers to show that the schedules of the Bill had not been im partially drawn up. By Parliamentary Paper 232, being an abstract of the practical operation of the Bill, accord ing to the new limits given to the several boroughs, it ap peared that a borough (Clitheror) was partially disfran chised in schedule B which had a greater population than 60 which were untouched ; another, Shaftesbury, than ; another, Wilton, than 16 ; and 10 on gradation.— Clitbero has more houses than 57 untouched boroughs; Wilton than 56 ; Shaftesbury than 54; and so on as to taxes. - Christchurch, which was in schedule B, paid more than 45 places not in the schedule, wherein no less than 9 were new-made boroughs; Wilton more than 39, Droitwich and Wallingford mure than 33, and so on.— The reason that the difference in this class was not so great as in the population and houses was, that the arbitrary ‘dditions made to the boroughs were mostly of poor and •catterea districts, which did not add to the taxation in the same proportion. But the most important view of all wai the number of 101, hooves the amount of the fu- - tare constituency. Will it be credited that Hythe, par tially disfranchised, will have more electors than 55 places not in schedule B, of which three are new creations ; Morpeth than 37; Dartmouth than 34; Wallingford than 32, and so on ? And Knaresborough and Tavistock are kept untouched, while seven or eight others, having e greater constituency, are placed in schedule B. Compare Christchurch and Tavistock as an example : Tavistock. Christchurch. Difference. Population 6,087 Houses 10/. ditto Taxes 10 boroughs in schedule B, 10 boroughs which arc to sending 10 Members. send 20 Members. 10/. Ifouses.... 4,084 2,9.44 Population...... 71,196 42,f6t1 Which is nearly four to one in favour of the one cn't against the other. This paper also furnishes a compari son between Christchurch, which is in schedule B, and Tavistock, which is untouched.—(Cheers.) In Tavi. stock there are only 5,602 inhabitants, and in Christ. church (3,483 inhabitatite; In Tavistock there are only 380 ten-pound houses, and in Christchurch -100 ; while Tavistock pays i❑ taxes 1,2831., and Christchurch 2,6001. —(Cheers.) Such was the result of this paper, which had been before the House of Commons since the Bill had been sent up to that House. It may be said this paper was an argument for going into Committee on the Bill. I will remind Noble Lords, how ever, of whet ryas said by a Noble Lord op posite last year,—'' I believe that every body who has had Parliamentary experience, knows that when a Bill brought in by Government is read a second time, it is a matter of great difficulty to make any alteration in Committee."—(Hear, hear.) There is no instance of making extensive alterations in a Bill in C, mmittee in that House. Of this, two instances have lately been furnished. I will only particularly allude to an in stance which has occurred only a few days since, and which will be in the recollection of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Horne Department, as well as many of your Lordships. It will be vain to attempt to make any altera tion in this Bill in the Committee. There is another view of the case which ought to he taken. The Noble Earl in a former debate said, that no alterations should take place in the Committee. There is no doubt that the Noble Earl and the Noble Lord (1 - larrowby and Wharncliffe) will find themselves met with great politeness in the Committee, but no alteration whatever, not even the smal lest, will be made to them. If report speaks true, the Noble Earl has been dying of compromise for the last six months, and therefore how can they be able to give b ins and those who thought with him, such reasons as should make them also be friends to a compromise, they appearing to have got no farther now than they had done at first? Therefore, those who voted with Noble Lords last year, must understand that they will have no more chance of a compromise than they had last year, and if they should agree to the second reading of the Bill, they must take it as it is. The Government were responsible for the Bill—they were responsible for the election of the present House of Commons—they were responeible for the I -excitement which had taken place at such elections—end they were responsible for the consequences which would follow the fate of the Bill. lie must beg to impress upon those Noble Lords who formerly voted for the rejection of the Bill, and who now intended to vote for the second reading, that by so doing they shared the responsibility with the Government. His objections to the Bill always had been that it went totally to overturn the representation as it at present stood. The disfranchise ment of fifty-six boroughs was a total revolution. But the measure, so far as its connexions went, would have more of a revolutionary cha racter as applied to Scotland. What lie had always said was, that this Bill had a revolutionary character. He must beg to say, and to impress upon Noble Lords, thit revolution might he raised by the law as well as against it. Here we had the King and the Government leagued with those who were generally the beginners of revolu tions. There was another serious objection to the Bill, which was, that it went to establish a uni‘orin right of voting throughout all corporations in the country. The Noble Earl said that this W 414 a merit of the mea sure; but did not the Noble Earl hear of unions carrying on correspondence with all parts on political subjects? And when we came to the large towns, such uniform right of voting amounted to universal suffrage ; it, in fact, extended the right of voting to lodgers of 3s. 10d. a week, or rather, he should say, to a man who paid 711. a night for his bed, and who the very next moment after such payment had not a farthing in the world.—(Hear.) He begged their Lordships to observe what would be the consequences of such a system in the House of Com mons, anti the little chance there was of carrying on a Government through the means of such an assembly. By the constitution of the country, as it at present existed, every member of the House of Coininons, when he came there, was a Member for all parts of England and not a member for that particular town which sent him ; but that would not he case, if the present Bill should pass. What might be expected then ? Why, every representative would receive instructions from his constituents, and act under them instead of being a Member for the common good. lie (the Noble Duke) recollected a letter which had been written by a gentleman in the course of last autumn to some of his con. constituents in that neighbourhood, in which he requested not only that his constituents would direct the course their representatives should adopt, but there ought to he unions compo.ed of all classes, first for the protection of persons and property, and secondly, to express the opinions of their parish on any public measures, in case Ministers or the House of Commons were lukewarm in the cause of the people : This was whit was recommended in order t insure _ . the adoption of the system proposed by that Bill. He begged their Lordships for a moment to compare the opera tion of this system with that which had been so long in existence. They had now Y representatio n consisting of boroughs, and also of counties, which was conducted by the freeholders, and they represented not only the lower hat the middling and higher orders of society. The represnta tives of tke greet towns represented the lower and middle classes of society. The representatives of what were called the potwallopping and scat and lot boroughs, represented the lowest orders of the people, and what e ere called close boroughs represented all el isses and all descriptions in the House of Commons. Now what was going to be done by the present Bill ? Why to establish a system by which all interests would be con- filed to one Class, which had no other desire thin to support democracy. By the present system, however, all classes were represented, and the business of the nation was carried on properly. He would now beg their Lordships to look a little to the chrnges that had taken plate in the course of the last few years in the Govern ment of the country, and tee what _ improvements had been made in a popular shape. The interest of the Crown, since the period of the Revolution, had been decreasing in Parliament. Since the late war the influence of the Crown had been m aerially diminished by force of the regulations of the Board of Customs, which had taken the influence in appointments entirely out of its hands and placed it in those of others. The influ ence of the Crown ever all its offices had been greaey dimi nished, probably more than it ought to be, for the purpose of the Government of the country. No officer bad been kept up for the purposes of Government. None had been kept up except for the purposes of business. There had been also another most remarkable alteration made with respect to Parliament within the last four years. In the year 1828 the Test Act was repealed, and the repeal of that Act immediately brought into operation a large body of persons who would naturally affect elec tions. In 1829 the Catholic Relief Bill passed, which made another material alteration in Parliament. No time had been given to see how these measures would work, and it appeared to him that it was right to try the effect of those measures before that House took so great a step as that which was proposed by the present Bill. There could be no doubt that those measures would have a considerable effect on elections, and particularly on any measure of Parliamentary Reform. He, therefore, thought their Lordships ought to pause, for the purpo,e of seeing how that system would work before they gave sanction to so sweeping is measure as the present. There could be no doubt there was a general desire in the country—h e did not mean to deny it, it was stated in all the addressed .and petitions (Hear;) that some Reform should be taken into consideration; but he wanted to know if that was the case, and if the facts .he had stated were true, which he believed no man could deny, whether it was not the duty of Parliament to proceed with caution in making those aite-ations, and whether it ought not to consider maturely every step before it made it. It was not at all improbable but that in process of time they might an ive even at the measure the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government had recom mended, but that must be by process of time, and after maturely considering every step towards the adoption of such a measure, if it was meant to preserve the system of Government as it at present existed. But they . had been told that it was absolutely ❑ecessary to' this important question to an early conclusion, first, because it was wished by the people, and secondly, that by not putting a decision on the subject, great in convenience was experienced to commerce. He wished that those who said that those innonveniences were felt, would :onsider a little whether those arose in consequence_• of the Inspect of ti.e pawing of the B 11—( Hear)—or of the ~ !ar of losing it.—(llear.) Ile believed that as 50-011 i/6 he present Bill was proposed, awl as SOOll as the excitement which it had occasioned, appeared in the pub lic mind, that all expenditure of every description ceased ; that men ceased to lay out their money in great enterpri eesit end those who hail expended the full amount of their incomes, begen to consid er e better it was not necessary to erovide for a 'period Of trouble and difficulty. These were, in his mind, the true causes of the want of commerce and dietress under which the country laboured. If their Lord ships look e d at their neighbours, they would see that it e same causes produced the same effecte therea. These causes had proceeded further with them than with us, because they had existed for a longer period. Such a sysoesn had been carried to its full extent with them, as it would be with this country, if the present Bill passed. He complained of the system which would be introduced by the Bill, because it fell on the poorest classes of the community. The expenditure of the rich gave comfort and ease to the middling classes, and subsistence to the poor. And it was in consequence of that subsist nee and comfort that difficulties had arisen. The Noble Viscount who had addressed the House on this subject, admitted he did not expect the present measure would relieve the distresses of the country. In his (the Duke of Welling ton's) opinion, it would not only not relieve, but it would aggravate them. With respect to cheap Governin nts he would wish to refer their Lordships to what had passed in Fr ince within the list two years. If (continued the ?'.able ljuke) your tord4iips will take the trouble of examining into what has passed within the last two years in France, you will see that the French expen diture has been increased in that time fifty millions ster ling beyond the usual expenditure. You will see that its ()retina; y Budget, notwithetandine the study that has been applied to be as saving as possible, exceeds the Budget of the former reigns —of the extravagant reign of the Mir bone —by the amount of ten millions sterling; and besides this, there is the extraordinary expenditure of fifty mil. lions in two years.—(Elear, hear.) Look at that, my Lords, as a system of cheap Government—(Hear, hear)-- and you will see that it is quite impossible to agree with the senseless assertions made on th it subject. Now let us see whether in this country this Bill, supposing it to be passed, is likely to make the Government cheaper or better than it is now. Let us ask ourselves whether the Civil Government will have mere pevee: to govern the country then it now possesses ; whether it is possible that the Government can be carried on with a smaller propor tion of the army. I beg yottr Lordshipe to look at the transactions that have taken place at Paris in the course of the last two years, and see whether that has been the case. I AM sure you cannot think so, when you see that while Louis XVIII. anti Charles N., were on the Throne, they were enabled to maintain the peace of Paris with a genarmerie of from 500 to 1,000 men : but that since the Revolution of July, the Government has not had has than 60,000 men once a month put into requisition to maintain the peace of the city.—(Hear, h ear. ) Why, with a Guyer nment founded as this must be, on the sovereignty of the people—a Government such as we must have, it we adopt this Bill—will any man tell me that the country under such a Government will be able to hive its peace preserved with a small body of tni itaiy? The disasters that occurred at Bristol were put down, my Lords, by ninety men, as soon as an oMcer was found who would employ the force incrusted to him. Were the events at Lyocs as speedily and easily quelled ? I know, lily Lords, that those events were of a larger nature, but they required not less than 40 000 of the best troops in France, headed by a most able General, the Alinister at War, aed a Princ e of the Blood, to put them down. Consider well, my Lords, first, the causes of this difference ; and next see whether it is possible for you to expect that the civil Government can be carried on as hitherto, wider a Government such ae you will establish if you pass this Bill.—(Hear, hear.) I beg pardon of your Lordships for having detained you so long—(Hear, hear)-- hut I considered it my duty to endeavour to convince you that nay Noble Friend is in error in the course lie has taken—that that course is entirely inconsistent with the well-founded opinion, in which we all agree, that there is no reason we should follow the course he re commends, and that, if you do follow it, you will involve yourselves in all the responsibility which they have undertaken ; and that the only safe course for you to pure sue, both for the Government and the country, is to reject the second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear, hear.) After the Duke of Wellington had sat down, lie rose again to say he had omitted one point which related to the Bill proposed by his Noble Friend the Noble Duke behind Whenever his Noble Friend should bring forward that Bill he would give it all his consideration, with a view to see whether it could safely be passed into a law. It was impossible for him to pass an opinion our a Bill not yet be fore the H ouse ; b u t as for as h e could judge of it, from the observations of his Noble Friend, it was a measure rounded on an entirely different principle from the present. The Earl of HADDINGTON, in explanation, said, that when he used the word "compromise" in his speech last night, lie had, perhaps, employed a word that was not exactly the best chosen. What he meant to say was, to express a hope that the Noble Duke who had just spoken, and the Noble Earl at the head of the Govern ment, would go into the Committee in a spirit of concilia tion and concessinn. As to what the Noble Dike imagined th It he had sotnething to do with negotiations which the Noble Duke supposed to have been going on for the last three months out of that House, be could assure the No ble Duke that if there had been such negotiations, he had had nothing to do with them.—(Hear, hear.) Lord GRANTHAM should not detain the House more tan a few moments ; but the question now before them was one of such importance, as to make him feel that it was his duty to break through the silence he had before observed on the question, and not to give a silent vote on this occasion. He hail applied his mind with painful anxiety to the consideration of the subject—he was most anxious to alter, if he could, the vote he had given six mouths ago; however, he could not. He had then voted against the Bill, and he should be compelled to repeat that vote on the present occasion. It was a painful conei deretion for him to be oidieed to do so, but he could not avoid it. He had then been anxious to see if he could concur with the reasons for sending the Bill into a corn rnitte ; he was equally anxious upon that subject now. The reason that induced him to say he could not consent to send the Bill into Committee, was because he thought th e chance of amending it there was hopeless. It was true that the Noble Earl at the head Of the Go vernment had told them th It any suggestion from that side of the House would not be thrown away ; but it was ob servable, that both upon last night, and upon the night on which the Noble Earl had introduced the Bill to their notice, he made the statement in a manner so guarded, that he candidly confessed he had not much expec tation of the good that would come from the Com mittee. From the beginning of the agitation of the question he did not think it had been quite treated with the openness and candour it deserved. It was a question of great importance —it involved the interests of every class of the community, and yet it had been pushed on with a degree of violence such as had never before been shown with regard to any other great public question.— (Hear, hear, h ear .) Q uest i ons o f i nterest had heretofore been laid before Parli amen t, th ey h a d received discussion, and the decision of P ar li amen t— t h ey were important questions —such es the Slave qu e stion and th e C a th o li c question--and Parliament had decided on -them; but never before had Parliament been branded with merely ut tering the whisper of a faction.—(Hear, bear, bear.) The conduct that had been observed towards one individual who was against this measure was such as to be disgrace ful to the country to which he belonged. There was a system of intimidation of a different description pursued ..ow to , what had before been pursued en the former occasion ; but it was quite as dangerous. They had then been threatened by a cowardly anony mous miscreant, with brickbats and bludgeons, with cire i. tet . l oa r: e e a .bes a n artt t i til t h e o'l l e:rnaett.l"'' on He saw in this measure so many dangers which it was thought that they would be frightened ; s inoont of fromfti future but the threats took no effect. The threats now resorted to were more formidable still—they had induced his for"change severe a n t those rle.ohtee, of brickbats. int T itn o id h a i t m io s n el f f r , on i i n t a l i i v e id le n e a g l i l n y: haniNnutistieg.)::(bigfl consequences thee i creispebnr eedpmes a rent s to'nscfateh a 'ni: m tmplbl a our i t irt: t eoo e ofur bout. .o f personal indifference. He anything to do with elections, and he had earth who looked up to him for a seat the in o many risk s and lizards attending thfee o adoption: te easure—that coupled with wh a t b • --'A alluded raj to, h e f e lt, as a man o f h onour and iu the x of bi s p u bli c duty, he must vote against it. }d execution s, already dityouit of f i thisn Lord WHARNCLIFFE began in a tone of voice in itself difficult to catch at such a distance, but which was quite inaudible in consequence of the noise made by some strangers who had seated themselves in the reporters' gal lery and whom no consideration could induce to he silent. His Lordship said that the question on which they were 'hen deliberating was not with respect to the Bill itself, but with respect to the mode iu which they were about to treat it. He asserted that it must he read a second time, Coles they had made up their minds to encounter greater !difficulties than they had encountered before—(Hear)—and do belief was, that, on the contrary, if they read the Bill e second time—if they only gave it their consideration, they would enable themselves, if not to get rid of it alto eether, at heist to introduce into it many changes that hey might think deeirahle.—( Hear.) The Notile Duke, what he had stated, began with au atteck on the (Lord Wharncliffe), T r eble Earl (Haddington) an d him