The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-27 00:00:00

~~~'e Ce be A , ip robc•- t ,derrY , he t ty . „ kinb 5 to 11 , i° th )if C6F a d e for 16 17 ' o ‘ 2 30 ... 14 2 0 27 IS 2 4 *". 24 30 21 ••• g 1 ''. 2 3 2 5 29 on 0 1 11 Pr° • 1 6 tig 2,6 ept• 14 •"*. 2 7 •-.. 27 (let* 1 1 ors' ig •'''. 11 oo a ' he° ger 0 mot Of Th e . no3ld.eration was, that there should be 40,000 shares : 11 : o rei t ‘ ted eit :. i4 * I nane RR continued—He contended that the allot krther w ow uid b a e ha a res was not a condition precedent ;if it ground of arrest of judgment. It was coletended by the counsel for the defendant, that the action could ; ..,fendant would N eek. , not be sustained, because, on the authority of ds t•• Crosby," and " Walstab v. Spottiswoode," the Ze_r!cover backd h h is av m e o a ne r y igh o t n o t f h a e ctio r n against the company 13a4t,chef wthoeuldech g ound of the abandon ' and the failure of the consideration. a c ti on ask, could the defendant have brought such he_ on the 21st of December, the day after ls. e should Ili ll eo ve j*lls. deposit? Besides, what was it that occa of the defendant of this scheme? Nothing but the default thei r Part of and other allottees. If they had fulfilled aba n d oned ': the contract the scheme would not have been Tile would have gone on, for it was a good under- W em al a s i t n a e b d et. Spottiswoode" defendant could not allege his own default as answer to this action. The doctrine laid down 'we it r • Spottiswoode" was not yet settled law, it e re be decided by the Court in Error. Again e s argu e d hu the decl • that the contract had been incorrectly stated Were to b aratien, as it was not alleged that 40,000 shares e allotted, and there was no averment that that d e nlinib _ e ! had been allotted. If that were a condition preen ehl;;,e;rtweli:bjest avouls/ be valid. But the application for allot that made when it was not known that there were ae area pplications for so many as 40,000 shares. Suppose 39,999 tO 411 dbeeeniei allotted, ebare is it to be supposed that the . failure tetewould be sufficient to avoid the con subst iuste nt • It should have been put to the jury, whether it was a the se. 'al part of the contract; but it was not so put to The defendant ought to have shown that there was 36,400 substantial variation between the two things. In this case Served for had been allotted, and the rest were re eernrsa r the provisional committee. There never was a way in which every share was allotted. It was , euiio thought proper to reserve shares, in case of anial rine:" n with other companies, and for landowners on the Atialeled Ilie Learned Friend further contended, that part of d eey c o onsideratio n wee., that the plaintiffs contracted to en i;i• to obtain an Act of Parliament, and had not ful tend that part of their contract- He (Mr. Crowder) con „e ed that they would have done so but for the default of e'ltbdefendent and the other allottees. The plans and sections e r ailway were made and deposited in the usual way, for _ng- __ l ee as thought t o b e a ver y goo d line, and Mr. Sergeant. Ki ee e o e could not deny that. But there was nothing mentioned go , eg to Parliament in the letters which for med the contract. It was objected further, that the defendant did not promise to pay the deposit on the 20th of December, i i i:tev When he was required. The two letters, however, must eta taken together ; and he contended that they showed, sub stantially, an agreement to pay on the 20th of December. e declaration might, perhaps, have been open to a special demurrer, but it was too late to make such an objection after verdict. Then, it was contended that the damages could not a mount to more th an 3 s . p er s h are , b ecause o f t h e reso l u ti on . 1 the committee, that if the allottees would pay that sum, it would be sufficient. The defendant did not go to the jury neon it ; but the Learned:Judge said, that if there was any point of law in it, the Court might reduce the damages as it might think tit: He contended, that as the defendant had con tracted to pay a certain amount and had failed to do so, the measure of damages was the sum which he contracted to pay. Another objection made by the Learned Sergeant was, that the Learned Judge misdirected the jury as to the reasonable ness of the time when the shares were allotted after the ap plication. The Learned Judge left it to the jury to say, whether they were allotted within a reasonable time ; and he expressed his own opinion, that the allotment was Made within a reasonable time. That was not a misdirection. Mr. Justice Parresox—lf the shares had not been allotted Within a reasonable time, that would have gone to the plea of fraud and covin. Mr. CaowDEtt continued—lf the allottees had kept their faith the sch eme wou ld h ave gone on . Th ere was no f rau d ; t_la, plaintiffs were r e a dy an d w illi ng t o p er f orm th e c ontr a ct °ntheir part. It was urged by the Learned Sergeant, in arrestek of jud gmen t, th a t, as it appeare d b y th e a d ver ti semen t that 40,000 shares were to be allotted by the company, it o ught to h ave b een a ll ege d t h at t h at num b er h a d b een al lotted; but that could n o t b e a condition precedent, and therefor e it was not necessary to allege it at all. On these grounds he submitted that the rule must be discharged. , e. 3fr, Sergeant -KINGLAKE, in support of the rule , said 4',!'e first question was, with whom was the contract made? I ne evidence • was that it was made with the provisional committee, and not with the managing committee , who were the mere agents of the provisional committee. The pro jectors of the scheme were the members of the provisional c°mrnittee, who held themselves out to the public in the pro spectus,i as the projectors. The Learned S er g eant then 4 " the original pros p ec tus to show this. They -were there called the p ro visional directors, and a ver y lo ng' list of names was appended. That list of n ames mightC,. now be very inconvenient. Mr. Farrant , the secre ti. nad told the Court, that the p r ovisional directors and provision a l comm itt ee wer e the same body. The pro visional directors named their solicitors, their acting en gineers, their secretary, and their local agents. The pro visional committee published that prospectus, and directed a pplications plications for s h ares t o b e m ade to " the provisional com mitt of management," without mentioning their names. _ then deposit s were pa id . a rece ipt was given to the follow gig effect :—" Received, &c., on account of the Provisional `g r n mittee of the Di rec t E xe t e r, Plymouth, and Devon port Railway Company." That showed that the contract _ o made with th e p rov i s i ona l committee, who were the g u r b lectors. The " manag i ng com mittee' , was merely a under of the provisional committee, and acting r them, with but a limited authority. On the 13th of _October, 1845, the " managing committee" wrote p r ovisional c omm i ttee, and Co., of Exeter, in the name of the r o v 'sional committee, t o ma k e arrange ments for open an account w ith t h at b an k . O n the 17th of October they heg Passed a resoluti o n, i n w hi c h it was recited that Y had b een appo i nted by a special meeting of t h e provi 'Cal committee h e ld a t E xe t er , w hi c h h a d d e t erm i ne d that committee of management should consist of twelve mem the.,!!..with power to add three to their number, and that Mr. ee ," e l o oolmer should be the chairman. The prospectus was si'keet,st, and by the provisional committee, who had done these v i si;„ n ‘ d applications for shares were to be made to the pro m us , commit tee. fej. Justice PATTE:iON—The applications were to be made toe' the provisional committee of management," and the t -trident in his application save, " I request you to allot ° me," &c., " subject to the regulations of the company," making a distinction between the managing committee and the company. Mr. Sergeant Kixat.awn continued—The prospectus was issued before the " committee of management" was formed, and it could not have referred to them. Lord Deeesea.N—lf the managing committee was in exist ence when the application for shares was made, it must apply to them. Dir. Justice ERLE—They are ell called " provisional com mittees" till an Act is obtained. Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—The word " provisional" is not applicable to a managing committeeman ; it is only appli cable to those who are going to Parliament. The words " committee of management" imply that they are agents. Lord DZNSCAX—But that will not prevent them from nuk ing contracts. Mr. Justice WIGTITMAN—Suppose the case were reversed, and Toby had had to sue. • Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—The defendant would have sued the provisional committee; he knew nothing of any other parties. On the Ist, 15th, 17th, and 27th of December, various matters were referred to the provisional committee by the committee of management; and, on the latter date, they were summoned to consider the best means of settling the Canna on the company., The committee of management had *Ply a delegated authority. The provisional committee, on tne recommendation of the committee of management, re solved that applications should be made to each allottee fur 3s. per share, and that if that sum t , ere not paid by a given time other means would be had recourse to. The Learned Sergeant cited the case of " Piggot v. Thomson " to show, that where a contract was made 4o pay a sum of money to the treasurer of certain commissioners, an action in the name of the treasurer could not be sustained. Mr. Justice EntE—That was a contract with the commis- Missionera to pay the treasurer. Mr. Sergeant KII4GLAKE—The contract hero was made `with the provisional cormeittee, through the medium of the committee of management. There was also a change of the provisional committee. The contract was made up by the Proposal and acceptance, and he contended that the accept ance must be in the terms of the proposal. Here that was riot the ease. The names of the provisional committee were a very material part of the contract, upon the faith of sehich the defendant made his application for shares. Lord DENMAN—You say that the contract is not the same if the names be changed ; I see the prospectus provides for an addition of names. Mr. Sergeant KINGLAXE—The contract was that 40,000 shares should be allotted, and they ought either to have, allotted them, or to have been willing to do so. If the de fendant contracted for a certain portion of 40,000 shares, aqd that portion of 36,000 was allotted to him, that was not the same contract. There were applications made for 45,000 shares, but they did not allot them ; they reserved them for the provisional committee, to take them or not as they ' should please. The cases of a Fox a. Clifton," and " Nockell Crosby," were in point; If the terms of the contract were not fulfilled a party might recover his deposit. The only dif ference was, that there the scheme had been abandoned, and the abandonment was proof of the failure of the considera tion. " Walstab v. Spottiswoode" and " Pitchford .. Davis" showed that the allotmeht of shares was * part of the con tract. The case of" Wontner v. Sharp," before the Common Pleas, showed that it is part of the contract that the whole number of shares should be allotted. Ile contended, also, that the contract was not correctly stated. There was no allegation that the plaintiffs were ready to allot the 40,000 shares, and they did not prove it at the trial. There was no allegation that the plaintiffs were ready to go to Parliament. The Learned Sergeant contended that the contract to pay was not properly alleged in the declaration. The contract was to pay when required, not on a particular day, as alleged. They ought to have alleged that the contract was a contract to pay when required,• and then to have alleged that they did re quire him to pay within a reasonable time. If they had done so, the defendant might have taken issue on the reasonable ness of the time. The plaintiffs had no right to let October, November, and part of December go on, and then suddenly to require payment. As to the amount of damages, the plaintiffs had themselves shown Apia 3s. per share would cover all the loss sustained. There was an omission of the allegation to pay on the 20th of December, but the record was amended on the morning of the trial. The Learned Sergeant submitted, that, if the decision In " Waltstab e. Spottiswoode" was good law, the plaintiffs were not entitled to any damages, for they must pay the money back, and were not entitled to deduct anything for expense* There was one question left to the jury, and that was whether the shares had been allotted within a reasonable time. It was quite clear that they did not think of allotting the shares; they waited from the I•3th of October till the 15th of Decernbes, when the Panic came. The question was, whether they accepted the offer of the defendant within a reasonable timeP Lord lacimax —ls there such an issue? Mr. Sergeant KINGLAKE—That arose on non asstimpsit. The Learned Ridge told the jury that he did not see that there was anything to show that the allotment was not made Within a reasonable time. lie submitted that the Learned Judge ought not to have left it with that strong remark to the jury ; and the juey, in adopting it, gave their Verdict, he submitted, 'against the evidene. On these grounds he trusted that their Lordships would make the rule absolute. "be MONTAGU SMITH, on the same aide, said that the committee of manaivinent were never alluded to in the Pr e ° e 3 e" P e ,, ect a% and their Lordships would no t g o out of the d se cut, unless there was a latent ambiguity. if there ..as a „ Went ambiguity it was patent upon*. face of the duct-- 51 ri Justice PArrEsoN—That is assuming that any person reading it would come to the conclusion that "the provisional c orunitttee" and " the provisional committee of management" are the same. But I think 441 any one reading it would conclude directly the contrary. 510:1-ractr SMITII—'By the Registration Act (7 and 8 y oictoria, chap. 110), each member of the cominittee was b Lind to take shares in the company. In this case that was nc. done. He con t en d e d t h at a pa ` r t y m i g ht contract with a with agent when the principal was unknown , but not pwaltrtll an unknown a gen t w h en t h e pr i nc i pa l was known. A contracting with an agent elects him as it were eo ""i"e, !nit here th e d e f endant did not know t h e na m e s of tile t zarattae of menegemont. Re contended OW the 1184 ' 4 re " ZICIA Material, d rut GA4O Gt 4 Pr9V4igual TIE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENINa, APRIL 27', 1847. committee consisting of the names of Hudson, Wynn, and a gentleman residing at Boulogne, and supposed the two former names to have keen withdrawn. Not one of the director, had bound himself to pay anything; they should have been bound in the same way as others. The Learned Counsel cited the case of " Boacfi v. White," to show that the allot ment of the shares was part of the conAderation. In con sequence of the non-allotment of the whole number of shares, the defendant was called upon to pay 1-36WOth instead of I-40,000th part of the whole. As soon as the committee Allotted the shares, they passed a resolution that, if the par ties would pay 3s. per ►hare, they should be released from further liability. He would ask who was liable to the de fendant ? The provisional committee or the committee o: management? The committee waited till the panic came, and then allotted the shares. Lord Dr.Nu.szs said, the Court would consider their judg ment. years of age when they retired, and it was well known that they left the service upon the large pension, while still perfectly capable of doing further duty. There was also a great abuse in another regulation rhi had the payment . of . the pen. a certain perod incapable of doing further duty, and were discharged from the I :i e o e r n i o introduc ed soldiers whosi since, er namely, ea fter ranks. The consequence of that was, that a man who had ruined his constitu tion b y the practice of drinking . ardent spirits passe d the Chelsea. Board, and obtained his discharge and pension, while those men who had conducted themselves well, and were fit for further service were retained. In order to obviate such abuses it was proposed that the men in the ranks should re ~eive a trifling incr ease of p a y for good conduct. The amount of the increased payment was unJer certain cir• eum.stances to be added to their pension, and that in creased payment would bo regulated in amount accord ing to the period of service. Ile had now touched upon all the principal heads of this measure. It was one which from its complexity and importance demanded their Lordships most serious attention and considera tion. lie left it in their hands, at the same time thank ng them for the kind indulgence he had received. Viscount COM BERMERE thought that this measure would not improve thecondition of the army, and in this opL oion he was borne out by the best: authorities upon the subject they could not get a better class of men than those they had now in the service. He denied that they could get a better class, but assuming that they did,how long would it take to bring them into a state of discipline, and having at last brought them into that state how long would they be required to remain in :he army afterwards? It would be an impossibility to retain those troops who were stationed in th e co l on i es i n the efficient d ate they were in at preseut, under the operation of the new. system. They had 128 regiments in all, and of those 7'3 were on foreign service. Why there were no l ess th an 6,000 men 4 eing out and returning annually from these foreign possessions He took an intense interest in the welf ,re of the army, and it was because he did so that he had felt called upon to trouble their Lordships at so much length in opposition to the Bill. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, the NoLle Lord, who had just sat down, need not h ave a p o l og i se d t o th e i r L or d s hi ps tor detaining them so long, for no Member of that House was more capable of speaking on this subject than himself. Still, however, he thought the Noble Marquis was wrong in the opinion he had formed on this Bill. Ile should be the last Irian to support it if he felt that it would lead to a diminution of the old soldiers of the army, but he was convinced that the Bill would produce no such result. No army could exist with out a sufficient number of old soldiers. In time of peace and war the efficiency of the service must be kept up, and that could not be done without the army was well supplied with old soldiers. When any dangerous operations were to be performed, the old soldier was always the first to set an example of bravery. The old soldiers of this country were its safeguard, and if their Lordships passed any measure that was calculated unnecessarily to reduce their number, they virtually struck a blow at the defences of the nation. In all parts of Europe, in the Peninsular, in North and S ou th Ame rica,in Africa, and in China, the armies of this country had accomplished great achievements, and how, let him ask their Lordships, were those achievements won ? Why, through the instrumentality of the old soldier. lie could not instance a better guidance of the high value of the old soldier than by reminding their Lordshps of the esteem in . which he wa s h e ld b y N apo l eon , and well he might, for through his instrumentality Napoleon won some of his greatest victories. The old soldiers were there fore the ablest defenders of their country, and nothing ought to be done which could tend to reduce their number. Now, at was his opinion that this Bill would not have such an effect, and he would tell their Lordships why he thought so. Their Lordships must be aware that enlistm en t f or a li m i te d per i od had long existed in the army to a small extent, and although it had failed when carried out more extensively, it had suc ceeded in that limited form. This Bill, however, held out many inducements for good condnct, and he was s t rong l y im ith a conviction that these inducements wo u ld l ea d pressed w to a re-enlistment of the soldier at the expiration of the ten years. lie was, therefore, disposed to try the experiment of limited enlistment again, and he entertained the liveliest hopes for its success. At the end of the ten years, their Lordships would perceive by the Bill that the soldier who had behaved himself during that term of servitude would be entitled to an additional pay of 4d. per day. and looking to the other inducements of pension and promotion that the Bill held out, he must repeat his decided opinion that the soldier would become so comfortable in his situation, and so attached to the profession that he would be certain to re-enlist. Of course his only anxiety was to secure the efficiency of the public service, and be supported this Bill because he thought it was calculated to ensure that object. lie entreated their Lordships, therefore, to adopt It. For his own part he would do his best to carry it out. No doubt it would involve the country in some slight additional expense, but the condition of the soldier could not be improved without that risk. With regard to the Bill. relating to the pensioner, he thought that measure was necessary, but the pensioner to whom Government ought to pay the most attention, were the vetran soldiers—those brave men who were the heart and soul and spirit of the regiment. What he wanted to see was good conduct prevail in the army, and to see them treated with good treatment and justice. He believed that those effects could be produced, and he believed that a system like that pro posed by the Government, would have a greater effect in pro. ducing this good conduct, than any other course which could be adopted. He believed that this measure would not . have the effect apprehended by his Noble Friend , and that it would not remove the old soldiers from the regiment. He entreated their Lordships to adopt the measure.—(Hear, hear. ) The Duke of RICHMOND gave the Government the fullest credit for good actions with respect to the army, but he looked with extreme suspicion on the measure before their Lordships. He considered that great evils would result to the army from this measure. Its effects would be most injurious on that part of the army which might be required for service on the coast of Africa, or other unhealthy places. His Noble Friend had stated that great improvements had taken place in the morals and conditions of the army in general. Why then in the name of Heaven, did they not leave well alone, and not attempt to introduce any new and hazardous experiment? This improvement had taken place in the army during a period of unlimited enlistment; why, then, did the Government wish to introduce any new system? He thought that it would be much better if the Government had made the period of en listment for the tirat for a term of fourteen years, and at the expiration of that time gave the soldier an opportunity of re enhstment for a period of seven years more. lie thought that the better way to improve the condition of the army would be, to increase the pensions to the soldiers. The principle upon which these pensions were bestowed were absurd and impolitic. It might be said that this would entail very great expense on the country; the more expensive, however, war was made the better he liked it, f or i t would prevent the na.ion going to war upon such slight pretences as they were used to do. He felt the greatest interest in the condi tion of the private soldier and the non-commissioned officer, The infantry, the cavalry, and the ordnance of this country were the best in th e wor ld. Th e Bight lion, the Secretary at 14 ar had most injudiciously and incorrectly stated that the army was at present i n a state of slavery, in consequence of their having enlisted under the present mode. He totally denied that assertion. They might depend upon it, that if they should open those advanta ges t o t h e sol d ier, they would not in:. duce him to get rid of the only failing the British soldier had to combat with. He would not trouble their Lordships with any further observations, he thanked them for the attention they had bestowed upon the few remarks he had felt it necessary to make on the question. Lord STRAFFORD then addressed the House at some length, but his observations were perfectly inaudable in the gallery. Lord DE ROS had some doubt as to whether the induce ment held out by her Majesty's Government to the old soldier would cause him to re enlist, or to join those bands of pen sioners of which mention had been made. In the event of its not being so, the most serious inconvenience would arise from the necessity of taking a large number of raw recruits to fill their room. In the cavalry, of which he was more qualified to speak than of the infantry, much serious inconvenience would arise from the recruits' want of knowledge with regard to their horses. They would require men who were experienced grooms, and not men who three months before had been tailors or shoe makers. He did not see hew such an evil was to be got over. On these grounds, and on others which he would not trouble their lArdships by stating, as the objections they contained had already been put forth by others, he should nut support the Bill. Lord CLEVELAND said that he did not think that this measure would accomplish two of the great objects which it professed to accomplish, namely, that of inducing a better class of men to enlist in the army, or that of keeping them in the army whets their period of enlistment had expired. H . e thought that twenty years was the utmost period that a soldier should be called upon to serve, for their Lordships had to con sider that he had to bear the extremes of heat and cold--he had to undergo fatigues and privations, and the effect was that few after ten years' servitude could boast of a strong or healthy constitution. He should certainly recommend that all soldiers discharged at the end of ten years servitude should have a pension of 6d. a day. Lord STANLEY said that he felt the greatest difficulty in dealing with this question, but his difficulties would have been greatly increased if he supposed that his Noble Friend the Duke who sat near him had recommended its adoption to the Government. But although the N o bl e D u k e h a d d ec l are d hniintention of voting for the second reading of the measure, still they might gather from his speech that he at hest thought that the evils which were t h reatened b y the measure might possibly be avoided, and they cou ld eas il y gather from him, that he was inclined to think it an uncalled for, and, at best, a doubtful measure. The N o bl e E ar l soug h t by it to make the army popular, and :to assist, by the training of an efficient monis, the minessy rierenees of the country. 'She Noble Earl's address for the first hour and a half was exceedingly in teresting, as showing the efforts that had been made to improve the condition of the army, but not one word of that portion of his address had reference to the present measure or in any dis tant manner bore affinity to it. Let the Government go on improving the moral condition of the men—let them improve their domestic comforts—let them improve the quality of their provisions—let them give them libraries and means of mental recreation, but giving these, would it be al leged that they were incompatible with enlistment for p eriods at the individual's pleasure ? It was alleged that the army was unpopular. Where was the proof that it was so ? Was this Bill calculated to make it more so? lie thought not. He had returns of the enlistment from 1817 to 1838 (and this in a time of peace) in the London district, and he found that out of the immense number of 12,006 who had enlisted, only 218 had chosen the period of limited service. But he would take a stronger case. He found that from the year 1809 to the year 1828, 39,687 persons had enlisted in Dublin, and out of this number only 95 men had chosen the limited period of service. But this system was put an end to in 1829 by an from order from the Government? Then why appeal to that House on this question ? Why appeal to Parliament then ? An order could at once command that limited enlistment should be the rule from that flay forward. They took from the agricultural labourers, who were their best recruits—they took from the manufacturing districts who were their next best recruits—but if they passed this Bill, they would begin to take from the class of lawyers clerks, and the result would be, that they would have a dissatisfied and in subordinate body of men in the army. It was his opinion that these who entered the army as the law now stood, considered that it did not matter whether they inlisted for a limited period or for life ; but if their Lordships passed this Bill, they would be holding out an inoucement to the scape-grace or unthinking youth to enter the army.—( Hear, hear.) It would lead to the manning of the service by a class of men who would look upon their duties as a tem porary occupation, instead of a profession. Now, the success of the army—the efficiency of the army it would be denied by no party, depended upon the existence of a different feeling. Just fancy then applying the same rule to any other trade or profession. Could they ever ensure success or perfection in any calling, where a feeling was only encouraged, that the parti cular trade or profession was to be temporary and not permanent. The idea was opposed not only to experience, but to common sense, and yet that was in point of fact the principle enunciated in this Bill. He had now disposed of the arguments of three points urged in favour of this Bill by the Noble Earl who intro duced it, and he had now to say a word, and a word would be enough, to the reason addeced by a Noble and G a ll an t Gene ral, who he did now see i n his place, in support of this Bill. The Noble and Gallant General seemed to think that the pro visions of this Bill would prevent the desertion of the soldier who had served i n the army for some length of time. Why, were was the necessity for a Bill to prevent each an occurrence as that, when IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, April 26. ARMY SERVICE BILL. Earl GREY (in continuation from our Third of last night) said, there was cue improvement that had taken place which was deserving of notice—namely, th( providing of place: for recreation. The subj , ct of th. state and improvement of colonial troops had been takes up, which was most important, because, as their Lord ships were aware, thst it was the strong pressure ~f tin colonial service that rendered the service unpopular. I was a fact that, as late as 1836, only two days' fresl provisions were issued to the soldiers, and the re.nainde, of the week they were obliged to take salt provisions. An improvement had taken place in that particular. Savings banks had also been e,tablisheti, the effect oi which would prove most beneficial. Measures had been adopted for improving instruction in the army. That was a matter of the greatest importance. because the welfare of soldiers was in a great measure dependent upon the instruction they received. Having thus stated generally, but imperfectly, the mea sures which had been lately introduced for the improve. ment of the army, he would now call attention to Limit effects, and in doing so he would refer to two heads—an state of punishment, and the mortality in the army. With regard to the first, he was sorry to say that he had not returns to prove this as he could wish, but he had In doubt he would be able to show that the improvement had been ♦ery great, and that there had been a great diminution in punishment in the army. In 1818, out of 28,900 men, there were 2,273 who were sent to the hos. p:.tal after the infliction of corporal punishment, being SO men out of 1,000. Last year there were only 4 cut of 1,000 who were subjected to corporal punishment. In the year 1829 there were 19 out of the 1,000, and from that year to 1836, the series was 16, 14, 11, 10, and 7, respectively, out of the 1,000. From 1836 to the pre sent time, the number had been progressively diminish ing. In 1845 it was reduced to 6 7-10. In 1846 there were no returns, but from that portion of the army from which they had returns, it was only 4 out of the 1,000 He found that the sentences of death were very much decreased in number in the ten years between 1826 and 1835: the number of sentences of death passed wa, seventy six, and of which forty-one were actual]} executed, the remainder were commuted to transperta tion. The punishment in the last few years had dwindled down to only one and two each year, while the sentences of transportation and imprisonment were pro portionately decreased. He found that while the num ber of me❑ serving in the army was increased, the mortality had decreased, in consequence of the measures taken for the benefit of the troops, and by which then health was very much improved. He had in his hand returns of the comparative health of the troops. Ili found that in the ➢lediterranean, in the 20 years up to 1835, the mortality was 23 5-10ths for every 1,000 men employed, while during the last two years the mortality had been reduced to 14. In other foreign places the mortality was diminished in a similar rate. In the island of St. Helena, while the Emperor Napoleon was detained there, the troops appointed to the statioi scarcely ever eat fresh provisions except on special days. and they were subject, although the station was a vere healthy one, to very severe mortality; while the officers. who were' exempt from the regulation with regard to these provisions, were entirely free from mortality. In Jamaica, during the twenty years to which he had referred, the soldiers died at the rate of 128 6-10ths per 1,000, but within these few years, by changing the posi tion of the barracks, and improving the condition of th, rations, the mortality had been reduced to 29 7-10ths pet I,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) The result was, that in the whole of the tropical climates where the mortality wa, formerly 84 2-10ths, it was now only 42 1-10;h pet 1,000, or a saving of life had been effected within the last two years, of no less than 1,035 men, or about a battalion a 3 ear.—(Hear, hear.) In India, however, lie was sorry to say that no such improvement had taken place, but he thought that state would only be a temporary one.— (Hear, hear.) He did not think, however, that improve ment had as yet reached its highest point, and he con sidered that there was ample room for improvement in the condition of the soldier, by improving and elevating the position of the army, and thereby inducing a more respectable class of persons to join its ranks. Looking at the actual position of the soldiers, as compared with the condition of the labourers in Dorsetshire, and other counties of the country, it was really a wonder that the army was not more sought after. The only reason that he could find was, that the army was composed in gene ral of persons of the lowest character. He did not look forward to see any great improve ment in the condition of the army until a change had take place in this respect, arid the authorities of the army were induced to say, " We will not admit any person into the army, except persons of good character." Their Lordships could easily imagine what a beneficia change such n course would produce on the constitti Lion of the army.—(Hear, hear.) A Noble Lord had argued that if this measure were to pass, every soldier would, at the expiration of ten years, leave the army. The argument of the Nobl e L or d, however, went on the supposition that every soldier would be so dissatisfied with his condition, that he would wish to le4ve the rdriltr, at the end of ten years. He (Lord Grey) did not think that the soldier would be AO anxious to leave the army at the end of ten years as he was at present, because under the new system an improved condition would take place in the soldier, and the officers knowing that the men vvottlil have the power to leave at the end of that period, would do their utmost to promote the com forts, interest, and welfare of the men under them. Su c h was the principle of the Bill. Their Lordships would. in committee, have an opportunity of deciding whether they thought the period of ten years too long or too short ; at present their Lordships were required only to affirm the principles of the Bill. He might perhaps be asked to state what he thought would be the result of the working of this measure, hut to such a question he could only reply that the experience which they had had, under Mr. Wyndham's Act, was so short that it really did not afford sufficient grounds for coming to any conclusion upon the subject, though he thought that if any conclusion could be drawn from the short period in which that Act was in operation, it was somewhat iu favour of the present measure. It was, however, of great importance to provide some means for raising the con dition of the army, and for getting rid of the bad cha racter which the army' derived from the bad characters who composed it; let it once he considered as a punish ment to be dismissed from the army, and he had no doubt that the character of the army would then rise in public esteem. Such a punishment was one much more suited to the feelings of the public of this country than that by the infliction of the lash. By the adoption of this measure the country would also always have at its disposal a numerous trained population ready to C 31120 forward in the service of the country. Such a system was found to work well in Prussia, where almost all the population were compelled for a period of three years to serve in the army.—(!dear.) That such a course tended to improve the strength and add to the stability of a continental country like Prussia there could be no doubt, bat although it might be considered necessary for Prussia it was also equally necessary for this country, An Act had been passed in the last session for enrolling the Chelsea pensioners, with a view to active service when required. Under this Act upwards of 13,000 per sons had already been enrolled, and it was quite surpris ing to see with what ability they performed the various exercises.—(Hear, hear.) This force would, therefore, be of great service to this country in time of war in garrisoning the towns of Portsmouth, Plymouth, and the other towns of the coast. But if this measure were to pass there would be a still greater number of men ready trained and in the prime and vigour of life, ready at a moment's notice to come forward for the defence of the ctsientry, without the great expense at tendant upon a standing army, though it would be an equally effective force. He anticipated from this measure that the effect would be, that a smaller number of men would be required for the service of the army, the country having that reserved force upon which to fall back. Gratuitous discharges had been given to soldiers of good character during the few past years; and the persons who availed themselves of those discharges did not amount to more than three or three-and-a-half per cent. At present the great ar gument against the dismissal of the bad soldier was, that if it were carried into effect the good soldier would mis conduct himself for the purpose of obtaining his dis charge. There could be no doubt that they would lose many of the very best of their men, who would obtain civil appointments. He hoped that they might do so— (Hear, hear)—for nothing would tend so much to render the service popular as the knowledge that the men were not tied to it for life, but that they might obtain other employment at the end of their term. He believed that that was one of the reasons why the French service, in spite of the lowness of it 4 pay, was more popular than the English. He thought that the next point of import ance to which they should direct their attention, was the amount of pension which should be given at the end of the usual period of service. 'There should be some means of encouragement held out to the soldier after the period of his retirement to join him self with companies of pensioners, who would be occa sionally called out to do duty on certain days in the year. It would require very little or no pains to induce them to do this, for in addition to the small annual payment which would be given to them, they would have the pleasure, and he believed that it would be no small one, of again meeting in the ranks their old companions in arms. The amount of pensions to be given to these men when they became incapable of supporting them selves any longer by their own labour, was 6d. per day. The Noble Lord near him smiled at the amount of the pension, bat he could assure the House, that the amount 6(sl.pviaenrweek in a ddi t i on to w h a t o th e r means a f might have pr ov id e d, or m i g ht be still enabled to earn by light labour, was by no means con saisderead apsenasiontriflwinogulimi be matter. foundAn Any increased to be sum injurious t g o o t t h r e country, etri n e u t i h t e w ir ou p L e i n o s ff io e i r ls t w o h m i a le ny th th ey e were still capable of ser p v f i r e. In 1829, when a man after a service of twenty-one years was allowed to retire upon a pension of Is. per day, i t was found that the burden upon the country was becoming so very seri ous that it was cottititlled to be discontinued. Dtan s rl y ti of these men Were only thirty-eight, thirty-nine, and forty he found, by the published returns, that of the number of persens who deserted from the British army, nearly the whole of them where young recruits, who were disgusted with the hardships and severe discipline of the first year's drill. The same Noble Lord also remarked that the provisions of this Bill would have the effect of inducing commanding officers to pay more atten tion to the conveniences and comforts of his mes. Such an argument as that only served to threw discredit upon the exer tions of past commanding officers, while it only al tered the present principle thus much, that if a soldier misbehaved himself, this Bill would place in the hands of his commanding officer power to offer a reward instead of chastisement for amendment, and thus held out a premium for the acts of the wrong-doer. Looking, then, to the experience of the past, and acting upon the c onclusions that such experience must lead to, he called upon their Lord ships, notwithstanding the opinion of the Noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief, not to pass the measure. The Earl of HARDWICK said he rose to call the atten tion of their Lordships to a branch of this sabject which had not yet been touched upon. Their Lordships were aware that this Bill applied to the marines as well as to the army. Now, it was well known that it took five years' servitude to make a good marine. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that the enlistment of marines should take place for a longer period than ten years. The Marquis of LAN SDOWNE said that it was with the m yr o o u s sin dte tend• r econviction o popular i h z et thea h t arm believed an the d b y s o presentdo ingmeasure improve its moral condition. He could lint, for a moment, believe that the passing of this measure would be attended with that risk or danger which some of his Noble Friends had said would attend it. It had been said that the good soldiers would leave at the end of ten years, Why under the existing system, with respect to the good con duct warrants, only about twenty-five persons per annum had availed themselves of its provisions; and was it to be supposed that such great numbers would leave the army on the passing of this measure ? it was a supposition perfectly unwarranted port thehy to themeasure. experiencea be the result, he sh ou ld most certa i nly not h ave g iven his sup - er e o . f the T h p e a principles t. ffh e e t thought o t u b g e h t ßill thatwsausch would founded upon the principles o f h uman nature, an d un less the British itish soldier was differently constituted from the soldiers of other States, the measure would be as eminently successful in this as in other countries. Lord BROUGHAM sa id t h at the i r L or d s hips had only sat there since five or six o'clock, but he had been there since ten o'clock that mot fling. He had been sustained there through had d t b l e o e n n g ti s ie it r t e. sitting He by thhaedinnteeremstilittahryat the debate had exc ited, although he felt ext reme l y f at i gued from the length of time he k he felt bound t o express to t h e i r Lordships or s e kill v , ie butvrs ips th he entertained u p on t hi s su b jec t. The measure was none of the Commander-in-Chief's suggestion. The Commander• in-Chief would have been the last man to have suggested such a measure to the country, and he had not even sanctioned it by his high authority. In speaking upon this measure, his Noble Friend had only moderately supported it, and while, on the part of Government, he spoke in favour of the measure, he gave his reasons for doing so, every one of which reasons told all against it. Those reasons were all meant to guard his own consistency, and they did most amply guard it ; and his warning to the Government to leave the army alone, seemed to say that he would give them his assistance if they wished it, but they had better leave it alone. The Noble Duke had addressed the House, not against the somepre se n tm portione measure e for which he w of that tutuur e wh a t s ot h voting, ad bebeunt droppedm er merely by against the way, and which might be retrospective in its operations, or might render the re-enlistment of the soldier, after the 10 or 12 years had expired, no longer a matter of option. He (Lord Brougham) had never, in any debate in that House, heard speeches delivered by his NobleeictFhrreewisseauldetrsseourfpo so supported conflicting. : stoh nd him, a n d espe cially the Noble Lard who spoke last, in which the argumen t s at u hen s ee e dm d daie w iffdt eh e r r toe e o ungut s hep a i rt u dt wi t oo t ua e nsb r s t os y uf apt a ghp t variance with each oth er , or w h ere r e t e i n a su so r t i itself, T m h id e r a e strain, that it al mos t lo e o ot k irort e es d dtphe like condemnation. His Noble i t , po e s it it r e nt h y ad po s p ta u t l e a d r. tha w t atshenootbjtehcet opfrethseenriaaswu,reaswaist to make oh make related to the army, quite as well calculated to effect that °b eet. The law permitted enlistment for life, for seven, or for fourteen years ; at least that was allowed down to the year 1829, when it was suspended by an ord er o f L ord Hill. The Government had, however, still the power to enforce limited enlistment, without bringing the measure so fully under the discussion of the Houses of Parliament. They could at any time issue an order reversing the order of Lord Hill, and there was their object attained at once. His Noble Friend had said that one of the ways to be used to popularize, as he called it, the army was to make dismissal from the ranks a punishment. How did that agree with the rest of his arguments. for at the end of a period of ten or twelve years the maa would be dismissed and re-enlist. He thought that this measure was pregnant with all the reedit, he would not say of insubordination, but of discontent. It was one not calcu ' listed to improve the condition and efficiency of the army, and was a superfluous and fruitless trouble. This Bill professed to do nothing that they could not have done without a Bill at all, and without the fruitless discussion and trouble which had beets caused by this measure. The proceeding in that House would in a short time form the subject of military con versations all over the country. In less than twelve hours all that had been said in that House would be known to every soldier in St. James's and all over the country. They would know that it seemed to be the unanimous feeling of all the officers who had addressed the House that night, that the sol diers had not sufficiently large pensions. Would not such pro ceedings be calculated to excite discontent and dissatisfaction by the attempt to enforce a needless, useless, and superfluous measure. He deeply lamented that such a measure had been brought fora ard. He strongly and conscientiously opposed it; and feeling the evils it would create, he for one should vote against the further progress of this Bill.—( Hear. ) Earl GREY said that the Noble and Learned Lord had, in his speech, indulged in some romantic ideas upon this subject, upon which he replied strongly—presuming upon the ignorance of his hearers. The Noble and Learned Lord should, at any rate, have known the law as it then existed. The Noble anif Learned Lord had the other evening spoken against the Government for taking it upon themselves to issue an order in Council, which, by Parliament, they were distinctly au thorised to do. The Nob'e Lord now stated that there was no necessity for this Act, as the power for enlisting for a limited period already existed. He could state to the Noble Lord that in time of peace, the Crown had no power to enlist soldiers at all, except by virtue of an act of Parliament. The 'sewer, as it now existed, did not warrant any enlistment for a perion of ten years, and therefore this Act became necessary. He would not detain their Lord ships any further except upon one point, namely, that he had been represented as stating th It the condition of the British soldier was one of slavery. He had not stated any such thing, but so far from it, he had, in order to meet that argument, gone into a tolerably minute detail of what had been done of late to ameliorate the condition of the soldier. With reference to the application of this measure to the marines, it was certainly proper and just that if Parlia ment sanctioned its application to the army that it should be applied to the marines. relt certainly necessary to establi s h a separate system for t h e two . e had already gone suffici ent l y far into this sub j ect b e f ore , an d h e The House di v id e d For the amend men i w en Non-contents present not then det a i n t h eir Lordships any f urt h er . st would not be t ho ug ht H After a few w or d s i n explanation from Lord BROUG HAM, when there a ppeared : 53 Proxies Against it-- - 94 Contents present Proxies ...... Their Lordship s then adjourned —WS Majority aga i nst the amendment... .-14 The Bill w as t h en read a second time, and ordere d to b e committed. at Half-past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 26. WASTE LANDS IN IRELAND. Mr. HUM E observed that it was proposed by Government to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to apply fora sum for the improvement of waste lands in Ireland. Ile trusted that the measure would b e b rought on in time to allow of t h e discussion of the important principles involved in it. Lord JOI IN RUSSELL had no objection to bring it for ward early in the evening. The order of the day for bringing up the report was then reads Sir WILLIAM MOLESWORTH, in bringing forward his motion, " That any measures of the Committee of the Privy Council on Education, or other regulations, which exclude Roman Catholics from participating in any grant of public money for purposes of education, by requiring in all schools which receive such grants of public money the use of the au thorised version of the Scriptures, are inexpedient and ought to be rescinded," said that he had a petition from above 3,000 Roman Catholic schoolmasters in Manchester, complaining of the operation of the Bill, and its exclusion of themselves from the advantages given to the other religious persuasion s of the country. The simple object of his motion was to make the measure of the Government—which many thought a partial one—one to enable the Government to impart some of the public aid to the Roman Catholics. It might be said, however, that the Roman Catholics did not need external aid, fur they had never made education an object of their consideration. But he was certain that they stood more in need of aid than any other sec tion of the population. He asked the House to consider what accommodation the Roman Catholic population in the manu facturing districts possessed. lie had received papers . from Manchester, which fully confirmed the statements made in the /louse the other night by an Hon. Member. The lion. Gen tleman proceeded to read documents at some length. In Liverpool there was at least 20,000 children of Roman Ca tholics, a great proportion of whom were not receiving edu cation. In Middleton there were 6,000 Roman Catholics in the same position. Bolton, Stockport, and the metropolis were in the same position. London alone contained from 150,000 to 200,000 Roman Catholics. In the east district of Londen there were 20,000 Roman Catholics, with 2,000 children, and only 800 were receiving education. In Finsbury there were 30,000 Catholics, of whom but 500 children were being edu cated out of 2,000. In Marylebone only 800 children of the Roman Catholics were receiving education out of 3,000, be longing to a population of 30,000. In Chelsea but 200 chil dren out of 1,000 were being educated. In the Borough which he represented, Southwark, there w ere 40,000 Catholics, with 4,000 children, and only 100 were receiving any education. In Lambeth the numb er of Catholic children was 1 600,0 f which but BO were receiving education. Great Britain had been esti mated to contain 1,590,00 0 Roman Catholics,though 800,000 he thought nearer the number, and out of 65,000 children belonging to them, not more than 30,0 00 were edu cated ; leaving 3 5 , 000 without any e d ucat i on at all. It had been stated that no application had been made for assist ance by Roman Catholics ; but this was an error, for last summer an application was made by the H on . M r. Langton, to the Council, tor a grant in aid o certain school s , i n a very peor district in the nei ghbourhood o Lantlport, whi c h was not favourably entertained. 1 . th e f r f eply, it was stated that the minutes to be adop t ed required the daily reading of the Scrip tures. But then this invo lved t he reading of th e w h o l e of the Bible. This wss the injurious system of the Government, and only the other day a meeting was held, at which three of the most respectable Roman Catholic bishop s were present, and where the Earl of: SlarebFy presided , a resolution was unanimously passed condemning the schem e of the Govern ment. He must say that it was his b e li e f that the Roman Catholics had been sacrificeu in order to still the opposition of the Dissenters. After the, speech es o f the Noble Lord the Member for W Yest orkshi re ( Lord Alorpeth), the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir it. Peel), and the Noble Lord)res3 histhe Member for London (Lo r d J. Russell), he must ex;disappointment. Even had t Protestantism. yat etitw whaos a ft refused, e puhlsieess solofafv Parliament, e and to those o f the the Roman Catholics neither asked nor required assist ance, they were fully entitled to a benefit from the State, and no difference ought to have been made in this country between Catholics and Protestants, especially as Catholicism and Protestantism had ceased to be the despotism a a n en d ds than he could understand the feelings of the slave owner in the southern estates of America, whose life and property depended representatives of Roman Catholics to tbe functions of the Legislature in both No d in id o b re e r admitting highest offices under Government, refused to grant to them the u un Pe d n er t s h ta e n e d d minor rights to which they were entitled. The Right lion. that and the tuh o cea t other n H ocf o i Gentleman, the Slabber for Edinbirgh, descr ibed this as a rytttfm of pert's* hurgartiglith Intl he appealed to rove ages, as looking back with astonishment to the opposition offered 1 her of the present Government, and he had not th e s li g h test to the measure, and lo o king back with even greater astonish- ' doubt that the minute of council which had been promised ment that this opposition should be offered in the name of would be laid upon the table, and he should be doing an ilijus civil and reli g iou s lib e rty. But would not future ages lcok tice to those gentlemen, and an injury to the body with which back with still grea t er astonishment at the fact that he was connected, if, in the event of a division, he refrained there were eight hundred thousand Catholics in this coon- from expressing by his vote his confidence in a ministry who try, and th a t th e y were debarred the means of education. had exhibited such an enligetened regard for the welfare of the Formerly the Catholics were only excluded with the Wes- people, and who had the means, as well as the will, to confer leyans and other parties from participating in the Government such an inestimable boon as that of education on the Catholic grant ; but now, when it was: proposed to exclude' them community. alone, he considered them to be deeply i n jured an d insulted. Sir R. INGLIS had never before hail the advantage of They were excluded by the construction which Dr. Kay mcetini the Hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. More O'Fer- Shuttleworth had put on the minute of council about reading rail) on common ground before, and he could not refrain from the Scriptures in the schools. He considered this a most ur.- expressing the great satisfaction which he felt in so cordially worthy co urse , an d t h e mot i on w hi c h h e h a d to propose was concurring with him as he did on the present occasion. to put an end to all ambiguity and doubt on the questien. The Mr. M. MILNES said that when it was recollected that the Noble Lord the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, Government gave f un d s f or M a h omme d an e d uca ti on in India, said the other ni g ht th a t when he became a Member of the it was at least surprising that there had been any objection to Commi•tee of Council for Education, he found certain rules include the Roman Catholics in the Government scheme, and in existence which he considered so important that he could he deeply regretted that the Noble Lord had placed himself, not consent to their being changed without the melee of Par- unnecessarily as he conceived, in a false position, by placing the liament. But he continued to say that if a notice for religious portion of the question, as he did do, prominently giving aid to th e R oman C at h o li cs were communicated, forward, by making the grant to that body a separate measure. he would continue a Member of the Committee. It . was far When the Member f or th e U n i vers i ty o f O x f or d h a d given his that purpose, he ( Sir W. Moleaworth) hail given nonce, and unequivocal support to the principle of education, he felt that hoped the Noble Lord would give him his vote. He expected there need have been no hesitation on the part also the votes of the Hon. Members for Dorchester and Tam- of the Government. Nevertheless, he die' consider that it worth on the ground of the liberal sentiments by which they was a defect in the measure, that the whole of the grant had committed themselves to the country, and the Roman had not been given solely to secular education, Catholics the other night before the H ouse . N ow , it was said, He thought that it was quite an error to suppose that the it was not expedient to meet this question at the present mo- Roman Catholic church was opposed to the Scriptures being went; who were to blame for that?—why Government, for read by the people. If the version authorised by that church bringing it forward at this moment. But ahy was it exile- was read in the schools daily, their authorities, he was sure, dient I It was said that a general election was at band—that would find no fault with it. But looking at the many diffi out of doors there was a strong feelino against Roman Catho- culties which surrounded the question debarred him from any iics. Well if there were was that House to participate in with to interfere with the religious education of the people. such feeling. Were the Members of that House to be the A secular education TriS still somewhat unpopular. He ex mere puppets of the elective body in carrying out petted the nation would advance, and he thought the only sys their wishes. Fur his part he believed that House were in tem which would certainly prosper, unimpeded by the diffi advance of the people, and he considered a seat in that House cultie; which he had allioted to. was one by which Government was the highest honour that could be conferred on a man, pro- provided for the secular part of the education, leaving the rest to sided he obtained it by fair means. He said, then, let them private effort, the Government only taking care that the schools do justice to the Roman Catholics first, and then go to the were conducted on high principles of morality. He, under hustings and command their constituents to confirm the Act, that conviction Would give the Government his support, feel and, by Heaven, he believed they would succeed.—(Cheers.) mg assured that they had to struggle with many diffieulties The motion having been seconded, which they had endeavoured to overcome. Sir GEORGE GREY rose and said he would not detain Mr. FORBES felt it necessary to state to the House his rea the House long in meeting the amendment of his Hon. Friend. son for supporting the Government measure. It was that he The Honourable Gentleman bad twice risen to make this mo- thought a necessary part o f the national system was that the tion, but he had nothing to retract. He had pledged himself, authorised version of the Scriptures should always form part of and he stood to the pledge, that a grant of assistance would the education of the young of the country. He would always be given to Roman Catholics. The Hon. Gentleman had not give his countenance to instruction in the Holy Scriptures, and quite taken the right course to carry his proposition ; and he therefore he would oppose the motion. thought it would be far better to leave The matter in the hands Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Honourable Baronet would of the Government, and when the minutes were framed for take the advice tendered him from many on both the purpose it would be time to discuss the question.— sides t f the House, and withdraw his motion. He (Cheers.) For his own part, he would a great deal rather (Mr. Aglionby) was opposed to the motion, not because it that a minute was quite ready to lay on the table of the House. went ton far, but because it did not go far enough. He ad- The Hon. Gentleman had requested that there might be no mitted Roman Catholics to participation in the benefits of the doubt, no ambiguity whatever, and after the speech of his G overnmen t, b a t th en there were some other sects excluded Noble Friend thre certainly was neither. For his own part and left unaffected by the motion of the Hon. Baronet. Why he might say, that if it were possible to lay a measure before was that? Many Dissenters were excluded by implication. the House this session, the Government would do so, but he But he referred more particularly to the Jews, who we. e de would net pledge himself on the present occasion. prived entirely of the advantages to be derived by other of Lord HARRY VANE thought that the Right Honourable their fellow-subjects. lie was sorry, indeed, that the Govern- Gentleman was quite right in the course which he had taken. ment had not carried their measure much farther, and made it lie was gratified to learn that her Majesty's Government were much bolder at once. He was sure they would have met with going to introduce a measure on the subject, and he thought greater support than had been given there, great as that had that the minute, when it was introduced, should state expressly been. with the course which the Government intended to take in carrying ' ed again that the Hon. Baronet would out their intentions. He regretted that the Noble Lord Mr. NEWDEGATE raid the qustion was too important (Russell) did not bring forward the question . before this, so that he should maintain silence, and ive his vote without ex that it might be set at rest. But after the discussion which planation. He agreed i with nee had taken place, he thought that no time should be lost, and Hon. Member on his left (Mr. Forbes). He honoured the Noble the head of he trusted the declarations made to-night by two Members of forthe Lord . at . the Government, the Government would be satisfacomy, and that during thethe manly way in which he had brought forward his measure d' present session the minutes would be brought forward. He e e , d x e dalng to take his whichcoun try by surprise. He repudi v a r t would, therefore, recommend to the Hon. Gentleman the pro- e t. le the bigotryl ou had been thrown out from the other side of priety of withdrawing his mot i on; as un d er t h e circumstances, those who rejected the spirit of this motion. He se stood n he did not think it wise that he should proceed. by those sentiments and principles which had done Sir ROBERT INGLIS opposed the motion, and he did so honour to thi s country, and entered intimately into e W on the merits of the question itself, irrespective of any other its constitution. Bi go t r y ! Why some o f th e Members of that consideration. lie would do so; no matter by whom the House _seem to have been carried away with a fury for educe question might be introduced, or at what time, or under what tion, till in the liberality of th e i r sen ti ments, as they called circumstances. He objected to it, because he believed it to be them, they opened the national privileges to Jews, Turks, and the narrow end of the wedge, by which it was sought to injure infidels. He could not allow a charge of bigotry to be made the great Protestant interests of the country. He hoped he against him, for supporting principles which he defended might tell his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) that not all against a church which was encroaching, and which claimed his protection, nor all his support, would enable the Noble Lord too much. to carry a measure of concession to the Roman Catholics, which Mr. BELLE W, as a Roman Catholic Member of the was inimical to the constitution of England, and the great House. rose to explain his reason for voting in sup mass of the people. The great body of tee people port of the Government measure, which was intended were apposed to any further concession, and he ap- t o advance the civil and religious liberties of th e prehended that any measure of that kind would be country. It was a matter of congratulation to the country hailed with the greatest disapprobation. According to the that it had a Ministry, whose life from the first had beets given report of the returns of Catholic marriages niade by the Regis- in public to the advancement of these principles. The advan trar.General, the total number of Catholics in England was tages that would be gained from the measure were great, and less than 300,000. That report only gave 2,230 marriages the amount of it nowhere so great as in this country. He celebrated among the Catholics in 1844, and from th e circum- thought the measure was called for from the great amount of stances of Catholics elevating marriage into a sacrament, it ignorance which prevailed in this country, and though the might be presumed that they would have all their marriages members of his own religion were excluded the benefits of the celebrated in churches. He thought that when they had grant of Friday night last, still he could not bring himself, on heard the statements which had been made by the Secretaries that ground, to oppose the extension of education to others. of State and the first Lords of the Treasury of the present and He thanked the Hon. Baronet, however, for bringing forward late Government, that every exertion would be made to carry the motion, but, after the pledges of her Majesty's Govern this measure of concession to the Roman Catholics ; but he ment on the subject, he could not reconcile it with his sense of thought that the people of England would be too powerful for duty to support the motion. them and would successfully resist any measure which had for Sir WALTER JAMES agreed with the Hon. Member for its object the payment of the Catholic priesthood in the eaten- Cockermouth that the Government ought to have taken a sion of the public money to Catholic education. lie would re- bolder course. He would be very glad to see his own opinions sist any further concession, and he could not allow the speech of what he considered right carried out, but as from the divisions of the Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State to pass, without existing among the people, this was impracticable, he would liberating his own conscience, and recording his determination extend the principle of equality towards all. As he had some to oppose to the utmost all measures of further concession. confidence in the Government, he could not suppo:t the motion Sir ROBERT PEEL said that whenever his Hon. Friend of the Hon. Baronet. expressed any opinions in that House, however emphatic might Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT was distinctly of opinion that have been his declaration of them, so great was his ( Sir R. if the system of bestowing the grants of late years was to be Peel's) respect for his integrity that he always believed th a t disputed, he thought the Noble Lord had acted rightly in he expressed them with sincer i t y , H e cou ld no t, therefore, extending education towards all, and he thought the difficulties but believe that he would have shown more of courtesy and of of the Noble Lord would be aggravated by delay.—(Hear, truth had the Hon. Gentleman extended to others the same hear.) lie disapproved of the principle of secular education justice. For his own part, in the sentiments he gave ex- apart from religion as advocated by Dr. Hook, for he consi pressiun to a few hours ago he was only influenced by a desire tiered that religion should not be separated from education. to act equitably towards all, and the only object he had in view lie thought the Noble Lord should feel satisfied with the was to extend equal justice to the different classes of her Ma- general approval with which his plan had been received, and he jesty's subjects. His lion. Friend imputed to him a wish to sincerely hoped that, withont making any distinction of sects, outbid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in an they would extend to all the advantages of education. attempt to conciliate the Roman Catholics and liberal patties Mr. ROEBUCK said if the interpretation of the Hon. Gen- He could assure him, however, that this was not the case. He tleman, who had just sat down, was correct as to the imme had no such object in view, and if he had. he greatly feared di et , intentions of her Majesty's Geyernment to bring in a riii that that was not the move by which it could be note to extend the advantages of education to the Catholics, best accomplished.—( Hear.) In giving expression to the then the House would be saved a great deal of unneces.ary opinions which he did, he had only looked to the justice of the discussion. He feared, however, that this was not an exact in case, and he appreheni , ed that in the course he took he terpretation. The Hon. :Wernher for Southwark was met wi , ll rather subjected himself t o the l oss o f p o p u l ar favour. His all sorts of professions on both sides of the House. 'Would the lion. Friend said, that the entire number of the Catholics of Noble Lord get up and tell them, either that the Catholics England was only 300,000. Now, if that we, -e the case, he were to get share of this 100,0001, or that he would bring- in would like to ask him what political purpose he could have to a distinct minute for them this session ? If the Noble Lo , d serve in trying to conciliate this small number, who were but gave such a promise, he (Mr. Roebuck) promised lie would not the 143 th part of the population. H e d i d no t think also, that trouble him again on this question. He was surprised that any measure in their f a v o ur was excee di ng ly popu l ar i n that the two Roman Catholic gentlemen who were connected with House, for he recollected that,.not a week since. a measure of the Government, had not opened their mouth s on th is quest i on. concession towards them was lost by a majority of thirty-nine. If it was my faith that was thus treated, I would net suffer the It was his decided opinion that the minutes ought to be made contumely. Some lion. ,Member, like the Hon. Member for to embrace the Roman Catholics as well as the o ther religious Warwick, would endeavour to raise ano popery cry, and that parties proposed. Still he had no wish to press it, so as to ember- convinced him of the evils of a mere sectarian education. It rass the Noble Lord at the head of the Government. His ex- was a proof that education should be directed to make men perience of official life was too recent for him n o t to know the virtuous and intelligent, and not to quarrel about religious difficulties which must surround th e Go vernmen t in dealing differences of points of faith. As far as he could judge from with this question. The position of the Minister was different the s p ee ches of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern - to that of an individual in that course. An individual could ment, his fears were not that the House of Commons would easily state a plan or bring forward a measure to carry out a go against him, but that the country would ; and he knowing particular policy ; but a minister had to consider all the cu.- this, that the House would soon lead the country, was desirous cumstances by which he was surround e d, an d his official re- of waiting till that time arrived.—( Hear, hear.) This sponsibility, ere he could agree t o suc h a course . At present, seemed to be the actuating motive of the Government. therefore, he (Sir Robert Peel) was content with the rime- In talking so much about the faith of the Roman sure, and while he had taken the ear li es t o pp o rtu n ity of stat- Catholics, they seemed to forget the intolerance and illiberality ing his opinion in favour of the Roman Catholics participating o f m a ny of the other sects that received aid from the Govern in the grant, he would no t be a party to snent grant. The British and Foreign School Society was any vote colculated to emb a rrass th e Government, lie one in point—for at their training school at Battersea they em would hope, that after the speech of the Right ployed class-books attacking the tenets of the Roman Catho lion. Baronet at the head of the H orne Department, on this lies, and laying down rigid rules of religious conformity. matter, that the present motion would not be pressed. Neither Roman Catholics nor Dissenters could he admitted on After that statement, and the pledge of the Noble Lord to account of the regulations. If they passed this vote of introduce a special minute in order to embrace the Roman 100,0001. the Roman Catholics would not be heard of more ; Catholics, lie thought the question might be fairly left in their and if the next Parliament was a liberal House of hands. He agreed with them in not pledging themselves as Commons, then, perhaps, the claims of that party to any particular time, as it might embarrass them; it was would be revived, but not " otherwise. What is sufficient that for the [resent they w e re pl e d ge d t o the prin- th e vote of the 100,0001. but to remove ignorance ciple, and that they would bring forward a measure, after °Pe and prejudice, and where in the country was it more required portunity had been given them to maturely consider the than in those commercial and manufacturing districts where subject. He had seen enough of the difficulties of a Govern- there were large bodies of Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, ment, under such circumstances, to admit of any other course hear.) This was where education was most required, and he than this. Having made these observations on the question therefore objected in lota to the educational scheme ; because before the House, he hoped the Hon. Member for Southwark it offered money to those who already had it, and refused it to would not press his motion to a division.—( Hear.) those who had none.— ( Hear, hear.) lie wanted some definite Mr. VERNON SMITH hoped the speech of the Hon. pledge from the Noble Lord when he intended to bring for- Member for the University of Oxford would open the eyes of ward a motion to include the Roman Catholics. He (Mr. the Government, and that they would at once act on their eon- Roebuck) would not be contented with a general promise, victions, and bring in a measure to promote the education of he must have a specific time given. If the Noble Lord had the Roman Catholics. He did not think there would be much the courage to avow himself, and at once bring forward such difficulty in framing a minute, as there were Roman Catholic a measure, he did not believe that ultimately he would bishops waiting to be put in communication with them on the lose a single supporter.—( Hear, hear.) subject. They had already an excellent ground-work in the Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the lion. and Learned Gen- British and Foreign School system now in operation in Ireland: tleman the Member for Bath had stated that he had not given The question ought to be settled now, without waiting further. sufficient explanation, and had called on him farther to state his No doubt the "No Popery" cry would be again raised, views. The Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had but the Noble Lord should pay no attention to that, brought forward his motion in a fair and temperate speech, and bat act justly in the matter to all parties. At the present had asked him for some additional reasons why he refused to moment, however, he trusted the Hon. Member for Southwark accede to the request he had made. He (Lord John Russell) would withdraw his motion. begged leave to say that his Right lion. Friend near him, the Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thanked the lion. Member for Secretary for the Home Department, had stated over again to- Southwark for making the motion ; for whatever it would lead night what had been stated on previous occasions, and the to, the discussion which had arisen on it must do good. What- groun d s why the Government objected to the motion of the ever injustice the Government had done to the Roman Catholics, Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. That satisfied many in excluding them from the grant, they had believed in that Hon. Members in the House, and they had expressed them coarse they had done the greatest harm to themselves. selves willing to leave the question in the hands of Govern- There was one point to which he was desirous of referring. It ment. They had given them credit for the motives b • h y which was the treatment of the Roman Catholic prelates. [hey they were actuated, and that they pro ought to have been treated in an entirely different spirit, and were satisfied with the mise of the Gov ' Government. This had been the opinion of the consulted in a more decorous manner than had been the case • Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tatnworth, of the Hon. One thing, however, he begged to insist on, notwithstanding Member fir. •Wiltshire, what had been said by th e lion. Member f or th e University se of the Hon. Memb er f or Kild are (hi m - • self a Roman Catholic), and oth er Hon. Membeys. He was of Oxford, and th a t was , th a t t h e R oman C atholics should be satisfied with their confidence, and the distrust of the Hon. and placed on the same footing as the other sects and portions of Learned Member for Bath— Hear, h this country. If th e H on . B aronet, t h e M ember for South- ( ear)—and, therefore, would not think it necessary to make any further nark (Sir W. Me iesworth) divided the House on this question • observations • for these reasons he wouldmgt enter he should certainly vote with him, but he acknowledged that into further ' explanationson the he was not sufficiently impartial to give him any advice on the fhe Hon. and Learned Memberfor question. Bath s e —(Hear, eed toc ohnecaet;,. e ) subject; but whether he came to the contest now, or at some that no good men could act without some particular m interest future period, he had fully entitled himself to the gratitude of was served, and he did not seem to believe that any member of the poor both in this country and in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) the Government could possibly have any object to effect except Mr. LAW quite felt the difficult position in their own. When every member had' been, in the utmost de which the Noble Lord (the Member for London) was placed. gree, willing to relieve a starving and dstitute peopled But this much he would say, that he bad well done his duty, when a great calamity had occurred, and for whose relic. both to his country, to his party, and to the House. He had all parties in the State had conjoined to assist, whe himself given his ready support to the Government in the plans ther they be members of the Church of England, Protestant, which they had proposed, and he was quite ready to give his as- Dissenters or Roman Catholics.—(Loud cheers.) But the ' sent to the defence of the Right lion. Baronet the Member for lion. Gentleman had given an expressive warning that there Tarnworthoshich was conclusive on the score of popularity; and were other populations which required the assistance of Go whether he looked to the late divisions, or to the feelings out of vernment in consequence of the great necessity in which they doors, he was happy in stating that the plan was satisfactory to were p l ace d , and saidlthat he had o b se rved a triumphant smile all parties of the Protestant community. But what was to fol- on his countenance (Lord J. Russell's) at the expression which low was a matter for future consideration, and whether the had fallen Lona him. But if such were the case the smil- was plans to be hereafter brought forward were to be satisfactory not from the observations made by the Hon. and Learned not only to the Protestants, but also to the Roman Catholic Gentleman ; but from the recollection that the provisions of gentlemen, who took an interest on this occasion, it would be the minutes of 1839, had amply referred to the necessity of quite premature to discuss. Whether the Douay version was which the lion. and Learned Member complained. But to be used or not, was yet a matter of question, and until that the lion. and Learned Member hal a further complaint, and was ascertained, it would be impossible to express any opinion had stated that if a Ministry had come into power by come upon the matter; but this he might say, th a t w h atever th e plans accident—and through the agency of its opponents—with any might be, that no plans, come from what quarter they might, merit of its own, it would feel that it was required, that it would be received with so much gratification as from him. would accomplish something that was great. To this he (Lord Yet he must reserve his guarantee till any o f th ose plans were J. R usse ll) mi g ht reply, that if a city in the west of Emsl a 1 , fairly before the House. sent a representative, who, without any i • ' m time when, in o o -merit of his own, Mr. LIDDELL well remembered the with whom he had acted, he had stood by the measures which he him cavil at sition to those self was unable d side of the Noble Lord many years ago, when he was engaged to devise, that if he theca inclined to draw attention to his th eories,' Acts. The Hon. Mem- Alti having any in carrying the Corporation and 'Pest particular measure of his own to devi • ber for Kerry (Mr. M. O'Connell) hail endeavoured to fix a 'lined to drays attentiun to theories which se, but sass merely in sort of charge on the Noble Lord, that ho had neglected the realised, were they to be attended ,) were never likely to Le le of general assistance, but to this the House, by its lateto. — (Cheers. ) If a certain to?— principle city in the west of England hadthat they were decidedly opposed, and he chose to divisions, shown send a Member merely to which the Noble Lord re roust say, that seeing the difficulties a from caprice, and without any merit ' of his own, he should re member that there m exposed, he felt it but due to him to say that on the pre- _ was always a disposition to allow for the de was ficienc ' he should give his decided opposition to th e itie . i y• —( Loud cheers.) But the Hon. Member had stated sent occasion tion of the Hon. Member for Southwark. tle example of the lion. Member for Oxford, . his Mr. and that, in Mr. MORE O'FERRALL said that no body was more opinion there ought not to be any allowance to the Roman Ca tholics. But . decidedly interested in the grant to general education than were it . was on this account proceeding on the notion the whole of the Catholic body, but the motion of the Hon, that 'Member for Southwark had at least brought forth this benefit, • • that there of the was no generosity—no consideration in any that it had had at least this advantage, the bringing out ex- proceedings of any Member of that House, who was in c lin ed planations which ought to be satisfactory to the whole of the to support the Government. But this he believedany t Catholic body. ire had for man years knowzi ems meal, very imperfectreference view of the question, and wit hout a the settee, ' to*nanertion of religions opinion, 'grow" '4 without any reference expressed out of doors, without arty e r e ference to the opinion expressed by the Dissenters who sr • ere connected with Mr. Baines, he would say that the best p sc. vision that could be made bad been made for the provision foe' the poor. He might have the misfortune to differ from some of those who hail taken part in the debate, but there appeared to be in the observations of the opponents a singular forgetfulne ss of the ties which bound the several norticets of 'society tow. ther. He had the highest feeling for those who opposed , the plan of the Government, but be believed that out of doors the highest respect would he felt for an assembly which had treated this important question in the way in which it had been met, but he must say, in his own opinion, the best possible plan h a d b een devised for the education of the people; and, he believed, that every member of the community would he satisfied with a measure in which the greatest relief was need. Mr. where th ere was the greatest d - Mr. T. D UNCOMBE was not ata e ll . surprised that the Noble Lord had withdrawn the a tt ent i on of the - House from. the question immediately before them ; and he was not suner prised at the question of the Hon. Member for Wilts. The only object of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark was to obtain a rescinding of the minutes of Council which granted this relief, and if he went out alone, unless a specific answer was given as to when a provision was to be made for the Roman Catholics, he would go nut alone and vote iFer the motion. The whole of the difficulty had arise n from the secret negotiations which had taken place with the Wesleyans„ and. it was certainly owing to these understood proceedings that the Government stood in the unfortunate relation in -which they stood on this matter. The Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay) had stated that all the clear state ment which he had made the other night was neither mare nor less than a romance. But what was the real facts of the case ? Why. that the negotiation with the Wesleyan Methodists had nut taken place at Lansdowne House, but at the Treasury, and notwithstanding the assertion of Lord Ashley, who had so kindly come forward to speak on the matter that such was uOl. the case, it was clearly evident that our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects were to he sacrificed to the interests of the Wesleyan Methodists. It was clearly stated in the circular of Mr. Hughes, who appeared to have been the go-between between the Mi n i s t r y b o th w ith the Wesleyans and the Church, and it was evident from that note that there was a deeper intrigue —an intrigue with the Church by which the intr. rests were equally to be sacrificed. By that note it was ex pressly stated that as an inducement to get up petitions Lord John Russell had kindly consented to take charge of them. What then became of the allegations of the Hon. Illember for Edinburgh ? Why, what he had asseeted was substantially correct. The truth was that the Church would get the whole of the grant, for the Diss nters and the Catholics had both re fused it. Some promise bad been held out that there would be a provision for the Roman Catholics, but it was plainly as serted by the Hon. Baronet who was the Member for the Uni versity of Cambridge ( Sir R. Irghs) that if there was to be any provision for the Roman Catholics that h e would most de cidedly oppose it. The Hon. Member for Edinburgh had entered into a lengthy tirade on the general advantages of education, and had blamed him fer apparently doubting them. Why who did doubt them in the present day. Certainly not he; but unless these was some provision made for the Roman Catholics, most deaidedly•would he oppose the plan • but if the Government would come forward and say expressly that they would introduce a measure for the education of their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects, he fully believed that it would be totally inoperative ; and in a few years the House would be as heartily sick of it as they were at the present moment of the new poor-law. When that law was introduced, he bad told them that such a consequence would arise, but he was then discredited, and yet how universal was the disgust that was now felt. Yet if the Government would give the assurance to which he alluded, he would unhesitatingly advise the lion. Member the Member for Southwark to withdraw his motion. They would soon have enough of the scheme when they had all the schoolmasters appointed and those inspector gentlemen —when they had those State spies intermeddling with the vil lage affairs. They would say, "Oh ! it is a pity that we ever gave way to the scheme." But gentlemen, in the meantime, were congratulating the Ministers on the majority which they had gotten the other night on his (Mr. Duncombe's) amend ment. He admitted it ; it was a great and triumphant ina. jority—but a majority obtained in the most ignoble manner— a majority obtained by truckling to bigot: y and making conces sions to one and to another, which deserved to be shown up and exposed. If the Roman Catholics obtained a benefit in these Government grants, they would obtain it on account of what had been said by the two Right Hon. Baronets opposite, not because of any spirit of co.- cession on the part of the Go vernment. It would have been well if the Noble Lord had consulted those two same Baronets before coming to the House with his measure, instead of going to the paltry pettifogging sect, in conference at Centenary Hall. The House has been struggling for many years to emancipate the Catholics, when should they succeed ? The Noble Lard said in his speech they might not succeed for some time—nay, he said, not for some years. Some years! He (Mr. Duncombe) told him that if :he might have succeeded at once, he might have suc ceeded now, if be bad come down to the House and laid upon the table, whatever opinion Dissenters might have formed, or even have expressed, a bolder scheme, one that went further. If the Noble Lord had said to the House. " Whatever faults it has, it offers equal benefits to all equally ;" then the Noble Lord might have had to struggle with opposition from the other side, but he would have succeeded, if not better, at least as well as he did the other night against his (Mr. Dun combe's) amendment. But no, the Government had truckled to their political opponents ; to the other side of the House ; and their own friends, who had supported them when in oppo sition, had been sacrificed. Mr. BROTHERTON felt that he would best consult the interests of the Roman Catholics by leaving their case in the hands of the Government. He felt confident that right would be done them ; and although in favour of the principle of the motion, considering the difficulties which surrounded the question, and which the House, perhaps, were not in circum stances to value, he would v o te aga i ns t t h e mot i on. Sir W. MO LESWORTH then replied—He said he had been requested to withdraw his motion, and among the rest by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, whose judgment he always respected. He ( Sir W. Molesworth) had often been assisted by the Hon. Member for Bath, but he could not agree with him that night in his estimate of human nature in that assembly. He (Mr. W. Molesworth) would respect the Members on the Ministerial bench as gentlemen who, having made a promise to bring forward a motion so, n for a minute to include the Roman Catholics, would make it good. H. would on that understanding, with the permi-sion of the House, with draw the motion.—( bald cries of " No," from o•h sides.) Mr. BRIG HT wished to explain. The Noble Lord at the head of the GovernMent had spoken as though he had last year voted against the Maynooth grant, because it went to the Roman Catholics. Now he begged distinctly to state that such was not his motive, and he then plainly intimated as much.— ( Divide, divide.) Mr. J. COLLETT hoped that the Hon. Baronet would not withdraw his motion.— ( Cries of " Divide.") Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD wished to know how the - matter stood ? Were the Roman Catholics to be admitted to the benefits of the vote, or were they nut? Had a pledge been given that they would ? If not he hoped the Hon. Member would not withdraw his motion.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide,") amid which, Mr. HUME rose, and said he was gratified with what had fallen from the Government, who had given their pledge for the admission of the Catholics to a participation in the vote ultimately, and with that be thought they ought to be satisfied, without pressing the present motion to a division,—(Loud cries of " Dtvide.") The gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap peared— For the Amendment 22 Against it Majority against the Amendment Mr. EW AR f then brought forward the amendment of which he had given notice, "that in districts where there is only one school receiv.ng State support, children whose parents ob ject to the kind of religious instruction administered there, may be admitted to the school without being subject to such reli gious instruction. That appointments under Government be not reserved (as proposed in the minutes) for unsuccessful candidates fur exhibitions in the normal schools alone, but be thrown oien to general free competition, on the principle of impartial examination." He thought that the proposition was so equitable that no one could object to it. lie would, therefore, rest his case on its own merits, and would not take up the time of the House with any observations. Mr. AGLIONBY seconded the motion, and thought it so equitable, that he would not picture to himsel any objection to the proposal. The proposition was as applicable to one class of religionists as to another. To members of the Church of Eng land, Dissenters, and Roman Catholics. There could be no thing unjust in such a proposal, and he thought it the duty of the Government to accede to it, as it did not give offence to the religious feelings of any religious denomination. Sir G. GREY thought that the resolution was the same in principle as that which had been decided upon a few evenings ago, and therefore he could not give it his support. The schools to which the Government aid was to be extended were voluntary schools, and he thought that if the principle of this amendment were adopted, their character would be entirely changed, and many of them, if this condition were imposed, would in all probability reject the grant altogether. Ho could not, therefore, assent to the proposal. Mr. V. SMITH thought there was a practical difference between the two motions. He thought this was a great practi cal grievance, and Mr. Kay Shuttleworth agreed with him in that opinion. He hoped the Government would accede to it, more especially as there was no class of religionists who could take offence at it. Mr. FINCH opposed the motion, and he believed, if her Majesty's Ministry assented to it, it would be found to be ut terly impracticable. Mr. ADDERLEY thought that some great effort was re quired to meet the want of education in the country. He had himself received a petition for presentation against the Govern ment grant, in which a great number of the petitioners could not sign their names, but had to make a cross. This showed the state of education which prevailed, though they had peti tioned against its further extension. lie though the Govern ment plan was the best that couid be carried in the existing eircum4ances. Mr. HUME was at a loss to understand the last Hon. Mem ber. He lamented the want of education, but he seemed to desire no measure by which that ignorance could be got rid of. The real question was to know how the evil complained of was to be wet. He maintained that a system -f education should he yarded out in which secular education might be given to all, religious education to follow.. In his own neighbourhood, in Norfolk, there was a population of 1,200 persons who could not read nor write ; they had no school, and were it rendered im perative that they should have a Church Catechism the y woul d ot have a school at all.—( Hear, hear.) He would support the Hon Member for Dumfries. Mr. PROTHEROE could not look upon the proposition of the Government as anything other than an extension of the voluntary principle. As he believed that the motion if agreed t o would bring the Government in conflict with religious sects in the , coutitry, he could not support the motion of the Hon. Member for Dumfries. Alter a few words from Mr. W. M ART YN, which were inaudible in the gallery, Sir W. CLAY said though his vote f own motion had been re jected, he sh ou ld certainly or the moti on o f hi s H on . Friend the M em b er for Dumfries if he pressed it. He thought, however, after what the Government had stated, it would be best to withdraw it for the Mr. P. HOWARD would vote for the motion if pressed, only he agreed with the last Member who spoke, that it would be better not to press it. Alter a few words from Lord HARRY VANE, 111 r. EW ART said, after the general expression of opinion by the House, he would consent to withdraw the motion. The motion was then withdrawn. Sir G. CLELIK raid that he had heard with regret that the Noble Lord had no intention to apply any of the grant to the parochial schoolmasters of Scotland. The only reason assigned was, that already there was a legal provision. Now, if that were so, it ought to be an efficient provision, or raised to te so, and if that were so, there ought to be some allowance out of the grant. The Noble Lord said that he could not agree to give any part of this grant to the schoolmasters of Scotland, as the grant was intended to be only in aid of voluntary efforts. But. on what ground was it, that, after a sufficient service, retiring pensions were: obe denied to the parochial schoolmasters ? Yet it ap peared that the parochial schools were to be subject to the supervision of the Government inspector, and therefore there was no reason whatever to deny them the advantage of those re tiring pensions. The principle of the retiring pension in no way interfered with this matter, for the schoolmasters were to be enabled to receive pupils, which, by the grant, they were au thorised to receive; and he trusted, therefore, that in framing the minutes, sufficient attention would be paid to this particu lar point. illard, or the t and e gar .!lt by H o pe