The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-28 00:00:00

the position, that such a Prerogative' was unfound ed, was of the most dangerous tendency—it tended to the consideration, that, so far the Crown could not he relied upon ; but he was surprised that the Noble Earl, in the course of his,inquiries upon the subjeEt, should have overlooked some of the most familiar Books upon the Law and Constitution of the Country ; in many of these it would Stare him in the face, in almost every page ; arid further, it was repeatedly established In the Statute Law of the Land. - The Noble and. Learned Lord proceeded to refer to various authorities and documents in illus tration and proof of what he laid down. Among these a Coruinision issued in the reign. of Henry V. Wa's the first dwelt Upon. He had then in his pos session the commission of Array'," which was one of the authorities referred to:by the . Noble &ad, the 'prerogative in question involved not only a bounden duty on the Crown,' but it was impossible it could Constitutionally discharge its fundions without such pouters. He again recurred' to his authorities, which wel':e 'drawn from the. Statutes of the Realm. He re ferred to the 13th Of Edward VI. and to other Atis; the provisions of which,.. as to the regulations im .posed upon the subjea, all' recognised and pro ceeded upon the undoubted' Royal Prerogative in qoestion :—Not . only this, but it was an established principle in law* This, among other details, he argued from various other Statutes and Pro eeedings,_ which took place in the reigns of Henry- VII. Edward 111., &co; and particu larly from the Commission of Array, issued in the feign of Henry IV. and the provisions of which continued' in forte ti) the presentoday. This Prerogative, he shelved; by other authorities, had been exercised by Soveteigns of England, not only in cases of Invasi,o'n but afterwards, as a measure of precaution. He deprecated the idea broached by the Noble Earl, that all the persons sod called out, were to be promiscuously embodied and in one masse. No ; such would be an-abuse of that branch of the Royal Authority . But should the day ever unfortu nately arrive, when it would be necessary to Meet the Enemy man for man, upon British 'ground - , he doubted not the zeal, the'spirit, and the patriotism of even the most dignified in that House would in: ditce them to come forward, and temporarily to dii i,ense with the advantages of their high rank. For his part, for an individual, , the Sovereign -of the Country should have what bodily exertions he was capable of in such an emergency. , The Noble and Learned Lord continued io argue, referring occa sionally to legal and constitutional authorities, that the SOveftign had an express right to call, in case of Invasion, for the personal services of everyman in .the kingdom capable of rendering such service; there were evidently eases in whiCh such could not be carried into e; 8, as cases of inability frouvage, infirtnities, &c. its extension to 'those 'Would be an abuse of power, and the laws of the, land may be resorted to' for redress. ,But the - prerogative question %vas, orte evidently More for the protection of the People, than it could he either for the hotiour or the ad v:;ntage of. the Sovereign.i Such a prero. gative vesting - in the Sovereign powe r, was not peculiar to this Country—ln many other States the praaice obtained, and in that able Writer on the Law of Nations, Vaud - , it- was .an . that every Member of Society was bound to defend the State as. far as he was : capable : -the (Nett of such a power was the defence of the people, and the print olphe was recognized, and in cases of necessity aged u 1 •tan o . in all eiVilized societies and political institu tions whaever. • The Ear/ of C4RN,IRVON spoke at considera ble le'ogth in eliplana;i!"ln, and referred more c6pi .ously •thitt in his original Speech, to authorities W*; , ,!; contended were in support of the ProPo , adyituced 'by him, respcaing the regal pre. I,o;d ELLENR•3ROUGH explained. 4. In the course of the Earl of CAR I,TAR VON'S explan ation, he was called to order, first .by the Earl of ... ,7 :OR row, and secondly by Lord ; and t:.e relev 3;3- Stafidislg Order was read, by which it ap_ }eared, that on . any .IN,ltle.Lotd's moving it, the .140a3e was liable to be. resolved into a Cernmittee,;' _this., was, in the first instanc.e, referred to , by the .Earl of CAP,NA2.VON, who urglithis right as aiPeer, : to speak twice upon an important suhjeci,. ; Lord ICING delivered - his sentiments generally to',Dri:the measure before the House . and" censured tive'Coralu‘t of Ministers with , respeft to the Vo litkteers. The Bill itself, he regarded ai a mass of i n kotogrnity...and absurdities, which he thought to be the gserierai charafter of all the measures adopted by D,linisters.apon the subjetl. - The: point of- view in tx-lich the Bill was that night held ont, was , by no means a fair - one the injurious effeds of the mea ture, as at pre , ent constituted, were kept out of Sight ; .it had the elf:e't of ,colinteraBing, not only ;e Regulai Army, but the. Militia -Force, ,and - the, of•Reserve . :—This - ivas principally done by ' r neanscf - the,extmptions; .the Militia,; and the Army Qf Rei - e;.rvealso, in .a great degree, cnunteratted each 7 °did; In proof of the Volunteer System materially ihe recruiting service, he referred to the - state arirecruiting in these -parts of the Kingdom• where the Volunteers were proportionably the most ,:.I,ultierous, as in Kent, Surrey, end the Metropolis. 'With respea to the Bill, he repeated, it- Was a 'mass of'• incongruity—every , separate part was jar- Akith the other, and the whole was in. the teeth of e.very 'systematic regulation. • PORING DON - made a few , Observe upon the measure in question. Upon the he regarded it rather . as a matter of indiffe rr:nce. whether it pitsSed or 'riot ; some few of its re_ “tiiations, - howeveri were likely to prove beneficial, and this cr:nSideration' induced him not to objeft to ,econd. reading of the Bill. These parts of the measure to which he- alluded, should, in order to ensure their salutary effea, be speedily carried into The Bishop.qf LAND AFF, without then Mean any opinion as to the general condul t not having sufficient information or documentary evidence relative to these points, ob- I served, that the situation in which they were at pre ,- sent placcd,—was one of unprecedented difficulty. With,respta to the Bill, the present was not the proper time to discuss. its 'provisions :—lt was no longer a .question;.: wheater or not, t he Volunteer 4:V.11 1: d 5 hest flJr the Defence of the Country ; it was a System adopted, and must now be encouraged and maintained : for his part he thiiiiglaCthe . system evinced a most noble and patriotic.spirit on the part of the People ; the diffi• culties however of. properly guiding it were great, yet he hoped - the whole would be successful in its final operation. Th., system should not now be dis couraged or abandoned ; there was nothing in His .tory equal - to what Great Britain had to boast of in its Volunteers ; they were not composed of the miserable dregs of the Nation, nor of the promiscu ous herd of the rabble ; they were on the contrary, composed of men of rank, of letters, of property, of farmers, yeomen, tradesmen, of persons all equally estimable and respeCiable in their respective and se veral ranks and degrees, and all equally evinced a patriotic ardour and .zeal in the cause of their So vereign and Country : they were aluated by no mean or selfish motives ; it was by the generous spirit of men coming voluntarily forward in the defence of their.. Country ; their spirit was not a proud, saucy, or capricious spirit, it was a spirit of manly patriotism, and such as would yield to proper rules and regula;ious, and cheer fully submit to the restraints of military dia. cipline.. The Country was' abundant in resources, and every way capable of meeting the impending danger. The want of arms, muskets, and other wea pons, had been spoken of; were this the case, why not place under, he would call it requisitionjeall the GunmakerS, Cuttlers, and Blacksmiths of the Coun try, until a sufficient number of firelocks, swords, and pikes were procured ? Were men wanted ? The Country had a right to call upon' its population, ac cording to the distina clases in which they were ar ranged. If horses were wanted, why not put every serviceable animal of that species in the Country in requisition, every post and saddle horse, and'train them for the various purposes of War ? He was confident none of •his: Noble Auditors would grudge, did the necessity of the case require it, the trouble of walking inslead'of riding down to that House. Did they want Ships ? Why not Culled all the small Craft, and every Smack upon . the Coasts that was fit for service., and prepare them for the annoyance of the Enemy, should they attempt In vasion ? As to the larger Vessels, he hoped our gallant Admirals and Seamen, would condua, in- the event of meeting, those of the Enemy into the Ports of Old England. Was money wanted ? Taxes to an adequate amount might be levied. The property of individuals was subservient to the necessities of the State, to which they were. bound to contribute in that respea, as well as by their arms.' For his part, he. would rather trudge through the dreary wastes of Westmorland, a free silbjea of our li mited Monarchy, thin . live in . all the pomp and luxuries of an abandoned metropolis, under the tyranny of, Bonapartle's;Governinent. He would trouble their Lordships It)tat with one word more He was warmed to the very heart by `the Stibjea of His J 'S Message of yesterday ; othepa triotic.offers of the Irish Militia ere such as con_ vincedhirn nf the adlian , uggek of the' Union'; both Countrieawerc but asonarnbera r of one . body, where; if but a part *wits toothed, 'the:whole - was afFeCted. After a few further o bseryatiOns:to this general . eft- , CI : 'in ;vtii . cli`the Reverend Nerate manifested his accuStorned talents: and eloquence, he expressed hi; assent to the Noble Secretary of State's Motion; The Earl of. DARNLEY made a, variety of. ob. iservatiOns. upon ; thetomeastite.. under consideration. He condemoed a great, part of the conduct of Mini. stern with, fOpett .to. the Volunteer system ; . yet conceived,, that under the present, `'circumstances of the' Country, • the Bill .contained •some be neficial provisions which ought speedily to •be, carried into effea. There was little of system, he observed, in the conduct of Ministers rela tive to the suhjea in question; and as to some points, on which the ideaa of a breach of ;faith was held _forth, lie thought it could not well ap. .ply, when ,the many allowances, . and tire unlimited _power of Resignation were :considered. . His Lord, auirnadverted•upon some of the detailed Provi sions of : the Bill respecting maintenance and dis eiplinee but obaerved, . there were many important c o nsiderations-.connected, with the Bill, which could more 'regularly 1)e. discussed. in ,the Committee. Lord .RCEIIaVEY entered into 4 general defence of :the Volunteer. System, and of.the zeal, ardour, and courage of those who composed it. He contended that a force _bad been raised greater than ever bad before• been known in this Country ; and, though , they had certainly not the discipline of.complete Re gular Troops, yet, at. the same time, they were,a de s cription of force which would enable this Coun try to look with contempt upon the attacks of the Enemy. With respea to this Bill, he thought-it contained many regulations which would tend to im. pro -ve and meliorate that System ; and, therefore, he' .should give it his entire support. The Duke of SoaazitsaT said a few word, bot . in so low: a tone of voice, that we were unable to hear his Grace. Lord..QRENVILLE in a speech of considerable length Opposed ,the Bill. 'He said it was a_common subjea of misrepresentation, that those ,who did not approve of the measures. proposed by- the nisters for improving. the Volunteer.systein, were enemies 'to the Volunteers, and, had no reliance upon their zeal and courage. Nothing could be more unjust than such an insinuation ; no expression that had ever fallen from him, or from any of his Noble. Friends could justify such an assertion. It would have been most absurd for any man to asset"! that. among 400,000 Englishmen who voluntarily offered their. services in support of their Country, that there _was a deficiency of courage or patriotism. Such an assertion never could have dropped from the lips of any in that House or any where else, yetthat was the language, or at least the sentiments always imputed to those who censured the conduit of Ministers 'with regard to this description of force. He did not wish to flatter the Volunteers, because be thought flattery as contemptible when applied to numbers as when it was applied to in dividuals, but he sincerely believed that the Vo lunteers were as brave, as zealous, and as loyal a body of men as ever existed; hut surely it was no imputation upon their courage,. their zeal, or their loyalty to say, that His Majesty's Ministers had adopted nu measuies to guide and dirett that zeal and courage in the way the most advantagous to the Country, nay, that they had by obscure, übin. telligible, and contradiaery measures, done every thing in their power to damp that courage, and to check that zeal, which had been so honourably manifested.—The first great fault which he found with His Majesty's Ministers was, that in preparing and forming the Military Force of this Country to meet the most formidable attack with which any Country was ever threatened, they had never aced upon-one system ; they had never considered-it as- a whole,and combined their plans so as not to counteraCt arid obstruct each other, but that they had taken up every part of our military force one by one, without any reference to each other ; the natural conse quence of which was, that system of confusion, per plexity-, and contradidion, in which they were now involved. In proof of this assertion, he begged their Lordships to advert to the mode 'of proceeding which had been adopted. Their first plan was to fill up the old Militia, which of course could only be done by ballot ; before this measure could be accom plished, before the . ballot was finished in some places, and before it was begun in others, they proceeded to raise the Sopplementary Militia, which was also to be done by ballot ; without waiting till this force could be compleated, they immediately proceeded to raise the Army of Reserve, and this also was to be-done by ballot; and then, as if their objed was to counteraa their own measures, they passed a Bill, by which every man who entered into a Volunteer Corps should be exempted, not only from •all ballots then subsisting, but from all future ' ballots that might be enacted by any future At of Parliament. It was utterly out of his power to guess upon what principle Mini. aters atied upon this occasion; the Volunteers did not claim . these exemptions ; they did not expert them ; he spoke not from belief, but from expe rience upon the subject, because he knew that the Volunteers who first stood forward, certainly had no expectation or idea of them. But it had been urged in defence of Ministers that the Volunteer System was adopted last war,- and that the Volun teers were. exempted from the ballot for the Militia and Supplementary Militia ; this was certainly_ true, but their Lordships must obserVe one material distinction between the two cases, which was this in the last. war the Volunteers were raised and the Exemptions granted after the Militia and the Stip plementary Militia were raised . ; in the present war the Militia, the Supplementary Militia, and the Army of Reserve were all concomitant measures with the Volunteer System, and with the granting' of these ex‘emptions. In the one case the exemptions could not affect a force already raised ; in the other they most materially-at:deg a force to be raisal v The Ministers had,, in faa, began at the e wilsng end, and the consequence was; that their measures were continually obstructing and thwarting each other. His Lordship then adverted to the principle laid down in the Bill, of His Ma- jesty's Prerogative of calling out' every Man in the Country, in case cf Invasion. He said, that a Noble .and Learned Lord (ELLENnoitouo.)"..had argued at some length iii support of - that Preroga. tire of the crown, and of that-Clinie of the Bill, by which it was proposed to carry. that power into execution, and which vested in His Majesty a power to place any individual subject . in' the King dom in any Regiment •of Regulars -or Militia he thought proper. The Noble and Learned Lord, in arguing this extraordinary propolition t had quoted Cases from EdWard.the lIId, and Henry the Vtli, and had even quoted Vattel. He was glad to find that the Noble Lord now condescetided to quote from Vaud, and the other Writers on, the Law of Nations, because be 'remeMbered Non a former oc casian the Noble - ,Lord had represented them as a parcel of- antiquated lumber. With all due &le. rence, however, tb odic' Noble and Learned Lord, he begged in the •most distinct terms to deny the proposition laid dOwn -in the Clause of the Bill, and he would defy:ll4li Other lawyer to produce a single casein any of the good periods of our his tory, wile - Wench a power had been exercised. The proposition he meant to deny . was this, that the Crown had 7 any constitutional right to take any in dividual in the Country, and compel him to enter into any Regiment of the Line or Militia. Could it be contended that such a right was founded upon the Feudal System, because the, very laws and usages which enabled the Sovereign to call for the services of the vassals ; restricted and limited the nature and ex. tent of thoseservices ? ht was equally impossible to infer such principle from the Gild Commissions 'of ar ray. Such a power as was now auntended for, certainly existed under the present most arbitrary government Of France ; but he begged to ask, - with what pro. priety could the Ministers call upon : the people of this Country -to stand forward against ; the -attacks and the principles of France, if they were tobe . tcild that- they w ere liable to the most .odious e part of • that most odious Government ? that is to say, that . any individual who was obnoxious to the Ministers of the Country, might be forced into any Regiment of the Regulars or the Militia; such a principle was inconsistent with the principles of the Briti,h Con stitution, and yet such was the principle maintained in this Bill. His Lordship . concluded with ex • pressing his most decided disapprobation -of the present measure. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose in reply to the Noble Lord who had just sat down, and began by defending the principles, laid down by his Noble and - Learned Friend (Lord ELLENBOROUGH). The principle laid down in the preamble of the Bill, and foi which hiS Noble and Learned Friend had con. tended, was.this,• that His Majesty had by his pre rogative, a, right, in case of Invasi , jm, ,to call upon the services of ail his Liege Subjels. This was a proposition which he did not exped to have heard called in question, big as the Noble Lord had ex pressed such strong doubts upon the subject, he : would not give any opinion upon it at present, not -because he entertained any doubts about it, but be cause, upon a subject of such immense importance, he did not think it consistent with the respect he. owed their Lordships, to state his. opinion - without stating all the authorities upon which that opinion was founded. Some Noble Lords had spoken of Martial Law, and seemed to consider that Mar. tiai Law only subsisted under the authority of the Mutiny Bill; but he begged leave to state, that they were completely in error upon that subj6a.— . The Mutiny . 13111 s re-i:ited to the Military Force of. the Cot ;:try.; but the Martial Las', which . the' Crown was authorised to proclaim, was founded up )ft. the Common' Law of the Kingdom. The Question which their Lordships were then called upon to con sider wag, whether this Bill ought or ought not to go into a Committee now ? Though many Noble Lords might objea to particular Clauses, yet it seemed to be the universal opinion of the Hous e, that many of the Clauses and Regulations were not only proper, but necessary ; he therefore could not conceive any objection to suffering the. Bill to go into a Committee. Lard G RENrI ELI? said, he had never contended that the Sovereign had not a right, in case of inva sion, to call upon the services of his liege subjects , because that the King had a right, representing the - Community, to call, in such.a case of extreme neces sity, upon the services of all his subjects for the public defence, was not only a constitutiona l principle, but formed a part of the essen ce o f c ivil society. The thing e; hick he objected to was thisr that this Bill, in carrying this principle into exect ! " tion, gave the Crown a power, not to call upon the whole or any class of the People, . but upon any in . ' dividual, and to place him in any Regiment of th e , Line or Militia. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. Lord SPENCER expressed his disapprobation of the Bill, and said, that Noble Lords seemed t° argue, that if this Bill was not passed, the w h° l6 Volunteer Force would be dissolved ; but the lig' lunteets had subsisted without it, and he saw n ° ' thing in this Bill that in any degree tended to itli‘ prove this system. Lord HOB ART entered into a vindication of th e , measures adopted by Administration, with reg ard to the Volunteers, and contended, that althoug h r , was impossible but that some parts,of so co llo' cated a system might be liable to objeaion ; upon the whole, there was a force created greater till°. this Country had ever known, and capable of frus trafr ' ing any attack that could be made upon it. He Co fi n ; eluded, by briefly summing up the Force of t tc i Country, which he contended was fully adetica' e , meet the dangers with which we were threatened' The Dule of MOIVT ROSE thought it was ~* possible, without the greatest danger to the C9,°'sti.tution, stitution, to have a Force equal in number to til; Volunteers in any other way than by means of su c t ,,, Volunteer Service. He was of opinion tha t tu , efficient ; he instanced several Corps in Scotl ano Volunteers were capable of being r endered vet/ 4 which had been declared fit to be brigaded with ßegular Troops. He objeaed to the Exemp llo°3 is • a part_ of the Volunteer System, but at the s ame time he thought that they ought not at the p resent moment to be taken away. It was not to h e ex ". Peaed that they would perfeft the Volunte er S y s., tern in a day, they must make provisions as the net cessity arose. He trusted that the second read in g of, the Bill would be agreed to Unanimou s ly . ?The Ear/ of TESTMORL AND hoped that those sues rii6 which — were considered as strong a t ' ct efficient by the late Ministry, would not be cone tdered as weak and inefficient because a d o pted bl; the present Ministers. He could not perceive al.!! ihe number of - Volunteers impeded the bal lots.i ?: the. Militia and the Army of Reserve, or stood.r e the ; way of Reotuiting fur the Regular Army ; contrary, men who had been accustomed for t m. trine io handle the inasquet, became the O f clined.to enter into the Regular Service. s ideo • Lord AUCKLAND- followed on the sat° -;rig he thought there were some Amendments svan t : 4 - in the . Bill, but . that the measure itself was VP" • The Bill was then read a second time. bd Lord HAWKE,SBURY said, as it seemed t ° thought that the Committee' could not be conve ° o ently gone thrOugh before the Recess, he 911° s _ move that the_ Bill should be committed on Tl' day se'nnight, which would be the first day ye meeting after the Recess which he intended to in° for. Lord I-JARROW:BY expressed a wish, as vore et a derstood him, that the Recess should be short i e : 1 ; in order to give their Lordships an oprituintiO of going through a Bill of this importance, wit ° utmost s HA d.pee it f cal; tailing wastuttlty opposed the idea - o o r; tailing the intended Recess, as it would be unu 9° ly short. e i 0 ° The Bill was then ordered to be comtlutt . Thursday se'nnight. Adjourned at half past eleven till to-morrow', i ~, PI HOUSE OF COMMONS. TUESDAY, MARCH 27. st t fitt SEVERAL Petitions were presented °g ain the vessels, - Marine Society Fishery . Bill ; among them 141 lowing : two from the Owners of Fishing i of at Gravesend, the one against the prii`c,T„ e s ts the Bill; the other against some specifid t•-` 3 l " - e ir • which they. apprehended would materially affe 6t r t p, Interest. They were presented by Mr. "" CRAFTe . en, Another from the Owners of Vessels, FisberiTlA &c. of the Town of Harwich, against the upong e priociples of .the Bill.—Ordered to be tol a d eco°j , the Table until the Bill should be read second -•••• time; and Parties to be heard by Counsel; v`c* wAasno presented iNoTov. by Mr' a of llr. il. Pir' A7c:t e h d e Another y Petition I\p tlve iEr to the same eff,..et, f ro m t he Fishermen 41 Faversham.—Orchired to be laid On th e Table vivo in the Bill be read a second tim ei—Counsel heard, &c. . i i Pv ne Sir \V. GEARY then " m oved, that the raar Society Fishery Bill be now read a second tirn e ' . The question being .put, n tlie Mr. C ALCR AFT opposed the Bill, up o-- h. merits of which he entered at considerable lengbtic He said, that a great number of the most vai n d a a t •and.intlustrious'classes in society were alai t his this 'Bill. He contended, that a measur e t t ° o sef _nature. ought' not to be entertained by the 1-1 °„, o f unless a strong case was made out of the nee or o f such a'measure, of some..evil to be removed. ° I. • g NOW sornegreat,advantage to be gained by it. c t he of this. kind was pretended : the advocates n i ' i to Bill hkl not held forth any advantage ciO ca ld had h o t he l d be derived from the measure: they , w forth any expettation to the Public that fiso o f be cheaper after this Bill was passed than if eras be et f it , f ': E ,, present ; ?tor could that be the effe- o tb •iiipe..v atc 4.;F:derttood that fish was altev,dy sQld a t 0 , 4- v , • . . I I