The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-06 00:00:00

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In con_ sidering the question, whether these Terms should : be 'accepted or rejefted, there was one proposition which he Might lay down, with, he believed, but, little danger of contradiaion, and that was, that :now for some time past, all rational, all thinking men, had concurred in an opinion, that whatever their wishes might have been, whatever hopes might at different periods of the War have been-entertain. ed, yet, that after the events which had taken place on the Continent of Europe, thesquestion of Peace or War bet ween Great Britain and France, became a question of Terms only [there was a cry. of Hear !, Hear! from, the Opposition Benches] : in laying down this proposition, to which Gentlemen seem to assent, he desired not to have it admitted in words, .and rejected in substance. After the conclusion of the Peace between France and the Great Continental' Powers, after the dissolution of the Confederacy of the States of Europe,, a Confederacy which he had', supported to the utmost of his power, and,with re-. Sped to which he still retained the same sentiments; after the dissolution, however, of that Confederacy, it became merely a question of the Terms to he obtained for ourselves, and for, those Allies who still remained-faithful to us, and to their own in terests. In saying this, he-was aware that he dif ' feted from many, of whose judgments he had the highest opinion, and whom he both loved and 'ho noured, but it was the firm conviction of his mind, and it ,was his, duty both to the House and the Public, fully and candidly to state his sentiments upon the suhjed. When he said, that the ques non of Peace or War between this Country. and France, was a question of Terms only, he wished to be understood as being more anxious about theseneral complexion of the Peace, as ' felting the charader of this Country for good Faith, Honour, and Generosity, than he was about any, particular acquisition that might be made, or any specific objeft that might,be attained. In consider ing the Terms that ought to be accepted, it would be necessary tea inquire, in the first instance, what would be the eXpence of continuing the . contest, what were the difficulties with which it would be attend ed, and what hopes could be entertained of its ulti mate success. It was undoubtedly the duty of every Government in negotiating a Treaty a- Peace to . obtain. the best possible Terms, but- it was some times difficult to know how far particular points might be pressed without running the risque of break ing off the Negotiation. For his own part he had , no hesitation to declare that he would rather close with an Enemy upon Terms short even of the fair pre. tensions of the Country, provided they were not in. consistent with the Honour and Security of the Count. ' try, than continue the Contest for any particular pos.. session. He knew that when he had the honour of a seat in His Majesty's Councils, Vic came to a ques tion of terms, and if the pacific disposition of the Ene my corresponded with ours, he for one should have aftcd upon that principle; and knowing that to be his own feeling upon the subjeft, be should neither act with 'fairness nor candour if he did not apply - it .to another administration. He did not pretend to state , to the, House, that this Peace fully answered all his wishes, but, the Government had undoubtedly en cieavoured to' obtain the best terms they could for the Country ; and he was ready to contend, that the difference between the terms we had obtained, and those of retaining all which ave had given up; would not have justified Ministers in,protraCting ' the War. He was anxious upon this subjeft to Speak plainly, because it was one on which hetsught to have no reserve, either with the House or with the . Country. What the terms were to. which this Country ought to.look in the present state of Eu rope, had been, in his opinion, most accurately and most ably described by his Noble ,Friend (Lord HAwx.Essuay,l. The principle 'tenon which Ad, ministration afted, and in which he 'perfatfy con curred with them, was, that in seleeting those ac_ quisitions which we wished to retain, Is was our interest not to aim so- much at keeping possession of any fresh conquest - which we did not materially want,, but to endeavour rather to retain those ac.- quistions which, from their situation, or from other causes, were the best calculated for confirming and securing our ancient territories. The objeCt which must naturally first present itself to every Minister, must be to give additional vigour to our maritime strength, and security to our colonial- possessions. It was to them we were indebted for the unparal leled exertions which we had been enabled to make in the course of this long and eventful contest; it was by them that we were enabled, in the wreck of Europe, not only to effeft our own security, but to bold out to our Allies tlae means of safety, if they' had been but true - to themselves,- In thus con-, sidering the subjeEt, it was necessary to look to the leading quarters of the world in which we were to seek for this security. It was evident that our ac luisitions were all in the Mediterranean, in the East and-in the West Indies. Those who thought than this 'Country ought to retain all its acquisitions, would of c,ourseconsider any cession made by us as income , - patible either with our Safety or with our-Honour. But those who tlid not go that length,' would agree with, him in thinking, that when we were to give :back a part, and retain a part of our,Conquests, it was our duty to consider which of them were the best, calculated to promote the- two greai leading objeCis to Which he had before' alluded, and if • it should appear, upon examining the' present Treaty of Peace, that in two out of the three quarters which he had 'mentioned, viz. in the East arid - West Indies,' we had retained such Possessions as were the best calculated to.effeft the security of our antient Possession's, we had, , every circumstance considered, done as much as could be expetted with out under-valuing our -Conquests in :the. Mediter ranean, and the gallant atchievements by which. they had been effeeled, especially the Capture of.'. ,Malta; and certainly no man was less . inclined to undervalue them than he was; yet it must be ad mitte&by every man acquainted with the real in terest of this Country; that compared with the East and the West Indies,: the Mediterranean is but a secondary consideration ; indeed, this was a propo sition so obviotis, that it was unnecessary for him to enter. into any arguments upon the.§ubjeft. - Of the importance of the Trade, much- hadfor. merly'been said, voluMes had been written upon it, and even NatiOns had gone to war to obtain it : the value. of that Trade, even, in the periods to Which he had alluded, had been much exaggerated ; but even suppose these statements to have been COT-. red,. they sipplied to times, when the - other great branches of our Trade, to which we owe our pre sent greatness and our -naval superiority, did. not exist: he allnded to the great increase of our Ma ' nufaftures—to our great Internal Trade—to our' Commerce with Ireland, with the United States of America, with the East and theWeit Indies ; it was these which formed the sinews of our strength, and', compared with which the Levant Trade was trifling. In another ,point of view, he, admitted that Possessions in the , Mediterranean, -were of im portance to enable us to co-operate with any Conti nental Power or Powers, with whom we might hap pen to be in alliance. - He agreed with his Noble Friend (Lord CASTLEREAGH), that when there was not a . powerful Confederacy on the Continent in our favour, this Country, with all its naval superiority, - could not make any very serious efforts on the Cons tinent ; but in the case of such,a Confederacy, much undoubtedly Svotild'he done by the co-operation of • the British Navy in the Mediterranean. But at the present motrient„ . ai,d situated as 'Europe at pre- . sent is, we ought not, upon any one principle of , wisdom or policy, prefer acquisitions in the Medi- • ' serranean to the attainment of the means of giving additional Security to our Possessions in the East and West Indies. It was upon this princiyle that 'he *heartily approved of the choice, which .Ministers made, in preferring our Security in the West Indies to any acquisitions we might_haVe made in the Me diterranean ; because he' considered it as a rule 'or. prudence which ought never tobedeyiated from, not unnecessarily to mortify the-feelings,or pride of an Enemy—[There was a cry of Hear! Hear!'from .the Qppositionl,-7-Gentleinen, from their: Manner, seemed to think' he bad not always adhered to -that maxim; - he -. would not interrupt Ms argument by entering into a personal defence of himself, whenever Gentlemen -were--inclined tO discuss that point, he : was perfealy ready to meet them, giving . them the full benefit of any expressions he had ever used.--Supposing the events of . the 'Wars to be equally balanced, and in negotiating -for one of two possessions, both of equal value, but that our possess. ing one of . then!, would hurt the feelings,- or mor tify the pride of the Enemy more than the other, he should think that a justifiable ,reason for selecting the other : he did not say this from. any. affatas tion of sentiment, •or peculiar -tenderness towards the. Enemy, but because an Enemy would not give up such a. possession without obtaining from us more - thari an equivalent.. Upon this principle, he hoped the House would concur with him in think ing, that we ought not to insist upon retaining the. Island of Malta. If Out objed• had been to retain any possession which had formerly belonged to the Eeemy, and which we had captured trom them, with the view of adding to the security of, our old dominions; then Malta did not conic under the de scription, .because it was not. an .ancient possession of the Enemy, but had been -acquired by him, un juStly, •fro t n,":i third Power.: It therefore appeared to him more consistent with wisdom and sound: po licy,-ratherto-put Malta under the proteaion• of a third ;Power, capable of protecting it, ° than by retaining it ourselves, to mortify the pride and at. traft the jealousy of the Enemy. - The other pos session which we had-acquired, and, upon the pro priety of retaining which, much had been said, was Minorca.. With resped to this. Island, he perfeetly Concurred in -the opinion of his Noble Friend (Lord HAWKESBURY), that it would always belong oil the Power who possessed the greatest maritime strength ; the experience' of the four last Wars proved the justice of this observation, for Minorca had regu larly'Shifted handS according to the preponderance of maritirnt strength_ - in the-, Mediterranean.—ln -time of Peaee, • Minorca was a possession of no great importance or utility ;• in time of 'War,. it could - be of no use whatever, unless: we possessed a mari time superiority ; and if we did possess that supe riority, :experience had shewn, 'that it would -pro bably fall into our bands. Upon these grounds he, for one„sWould not -liavcadVised nittCh to be -given in another quarter for' the purpose of enabling' us to retain the Island of Minorca, doUbting, as •he did, whether in time :of Peace, it was worth the ex. pence of a garrison. He thought,•therefore, that we were juStified in looking to the East and West Indies forthe POsscssions which it was our interest to re tain, but -he could not help expressing his-regret, that circumstances .were such as to prevent Us from retaining a place as important in many points of view as the Island of Malta;' he lamented also, that it was not , possible for us to - have made a more de finitive arrangement respe&ing its future fate ; hut unless we had been prepared to say that we would re tain it ourselves, he did not know any better plan that could be adopted, than to make it independant both of England 'and France. In turning his attention to the East. Indies, he- certainly saw cause for regret, because the opinion he had been taught to entertain of the value of the Cape of good Hope was much higher than that- expressed by his Noble Friend. He knew there were great Authorities against him ; but on the other. hand, from what he heard from a Oble Marquis (CoxtrwALt..), and, from a 'Right Hon.- Friend of his who had" nng presided over the Affairs . of India, he was induced to think the Cape of Good Hope a more important place than it'had been re presented on this occasion. • But thinking thus highly-as he did of the Cape, he considered it as far inferior indeed 'to Ceylon, which he looked upon-to be-of all the places on the face of the Glebe, the one which will add most- to the security of our East • Indian pocessions, and as placing our dominions in that quarter in a greaterdegree of safely than they . had been from the first hour that we set our foot on the Continent of India. An Hon. Friend of his on the other side of the House (Mr: T. Gg v t Li;E)) had lamented that we had not stipulated for the r tendon of Cochin, and stated, that in the - form Negotiations, Lord MALMESBUR.Y 'had been in , struaeti to insist upon 'its remaining in our posse, sian. How - far Lord MALr4Es u [MY was inStrllete 4 to insist upon, or recede from certain points cow tabled in that Projet, he did not feel himself now 0 1 liberty to state, but he` believed cm man would be inclined to say, that it must of necessity be a 0 Ultiniaturn, because it was - contained - in a - Projer , Indeed, one of the complaints which we had against the French upon that occasion, was, that chef wanted, us, contrary to every diplomatic form, to. give in our Ultimatum first. He knew that it wits the opinion, at that time, of a. Noble Marquis, tO whom he had, before alluded (and who had rendereJ such essential services in India ; but he was wrong in,„ partieulariziog India, for there was scarce a quarter o f the Globe in which this Country had not derived important advantages from the exalted talents -aid virtues of that Noble person who was now about to' receive the last reward of his services, in putting the finishing hand toot Treaty which would give Peace to the World after a War in whichhe had had so large 3 snare in averting from this Country the dangers - which . threatened the most vulnerable part of our Po' sessions); .that the refaioing of Cochin was' titres sary to the s..curity of our Indian Dominions. But the Noble Marquis, he was sure, • did, not : now rc' win the same opinion, because its importance t hen depended upon its being a frontier Post, to se cure uis from an„Enemy whom we had since cotipletdt destioyed. It would'not surely be contended for 1 moment that the power of Tippoo Sultan was entire , and when there was a direr} road from his dorni' nions into ours, that Cochin was not of infinitelf more importance thati it be now when his do' minions were in our possession. He did . not wisp .to give a ludicrous illustration c this aro - . - ncnt; but he.was really so much astonished at what had been'said upon this point, that he could not help stating. a case which appeared to him direly . 0 point 'with 'thepresent. -If we were to look into the ancknt periods ofour History, When Scotland .w a separate-kingdom, hostile to us and in, strip al' -lianee with France, -the- Town of Berwick upon Twee.:-wral a place of, the, greatest importance- t°, us as a forti fi ed frontier Post ; - . but surely it oriel° ; not be 'said to lie of. equal 'importance:lloW; WllO Scotland and'England were united into One dom. 'ThiS parallel did` not 'appear to hiM:to?' 'exaggerated; -and if Cochin was of no importance 29 a 'Military Post, he was inclined to think that it' commercial value was oot . very great. As to t le C advantages ..we. must. deri v e from the possession ! Ceylon, it'was,unnecessary for him' to aolarge tie therothey. were too Obvious `ribt to 'be felt hi every body. With regard to the Cape, he befoo'. stated his opinion of its value ; *but. if we could not retain it . without continuing the War, he thotigh Ministers had abed wisely in "giving it up u pon the terms they had, because, in point of value, was inferior to Ceylon and Trinidad. He nnif came to the consideration of 'our situation in the • Weitandiei, and he was decidedly of opinion, th.t . of all the Islands which the fortune of War had rd s. into our hands in that quarter, Trinidad was tO. most valuable L-he should prefer it even to I\44 3r i tinieoL-undoubtedly as a prote&ion to our Lee`" ISlands it was the better of the-two ; but in 9° l ' intrinsic value, Ttinidad was the. inure import at f As to its value as a Post from - which we might u'i ree=l our future Operations - against-the Possessions c : f Spain in South America, it must be felt by eve?, one to be the" best situated of any' part in the-Weti Indies, He had always been of opinion tha t came to be a _question merely of terms' betwee:,. England and France, that we ought to retain possession of one of the great Naval Stations in 43 4' \Vest-Indies, because our. great -want . in that que r ter . was a Naval' Port. The four great Naval SP i d ' tions were Guadaioupe, Martinico, St. Lucia, on o Trinidad ; and of those Trinidad and Martin',,, were the'best, and the former the better of the tsv b ' e He would now trouble the House shortly upon . t. er subjed of our Allies. With resped to the Por t j we had done every thing we were bound to d nay,. more—we had' compelled the French to Abe evacuation of Egypt, and had stipulated for the ir tegrity of her Dominicios. There was an other n i L. l . 3 jest which we' had obtained, and to which he wit not- think as much importance had been given as. o , deserved—He meant the - Establishment of a n 1 „, fant Power; viz. the -Republic of the Seven Islatin.e.tr which would perhaps have otherwise fallen u n6 c , the doininion of France this - Certainly was a n 0 .0; quisition of great importance -- fOr this country, 9 1." inferior'perliap,s_tei. pOsSession of 'Malta it s e, The only ,answer he' had heard upon thiS was,... that ;here had been a Treaty concluded tween France and the mr(e, hy.lVhich.; the eva cti ` o g• tide of Egypt was stipulated for ; bur it - co nl4 be for a moment doubted that it Was 'to -Ill e _yriej, dons of this Country, and to the -b r illi a nt meets of.our Army anti Nity..* - that , the evacu a ` l d i of Et must be. attributed ; .and a dip lomatic trick' taken the-advantage of th two Treaties, - that. - Coillii . nor derogate from . o i . e merit of this Country. "With regard to 11 J were not hound tO' do any 'thing fdt :S he ' , 0 0 even desired to was released from her, engoi eqp ve to us,. but she compelled, to . this by an ° At e, ruling necessity, and the Government of this .L'"oro try, in its _contitia - toWaids'Naples, had nnt - , aced in conformity to it' sefwo interest, 4 11 , (1 -- t upon barge and liberal grounds; in endeavourinfo' repair the fortunes of ao'Ally; - who had gi%;.!e ` .z.o f only to force: The Hon. Gentleman (-Mr . . u! oe VILLE) had argued, that we ought to have gu -, '" to Naples her Dominions, because, froni the 't tiguiry of the Cisalpine .Republic ,to: N . aples_F oo French may, in pursuance of the Treaty,. V i 1 , 14 * I their -territories one day and re-enter then' next , but if,' from the - situation of- Eutol' e f stipulation te e b iN) erae:ee'lciUa it must be du "W that an ith f tu. 4, l l ;:r . t iaS n ne , Sid e -the same ObservatiotA Were applit..-,ableicr ssc , • i not bound to interfere for. her, uniesi s ys L e oll . maintained , that we were to take uppir pilrse!' Bat task:of settling the affairs oldie Continent. 111, we were unable to - sett !e the affiiirs ot* th" E ,T IIO , I the COn"iiilent; - which Wig -at' Wif Pei . 5 hood; with what cited or proiriety could ' _"7„atte tempt it in Italy ? He was read.), ru gran. t' • ' 0 have c rould, we •ared its r ta ke a lip it by our guarantee re-ealiinp we had n we had ro ')ll. : the pr Aegiened told that t Nego indemnit ()Lirselve "`" l . i.. u4he ualan c i n doubted . 11 1ucti, but in t * - -tider w I"rance. but Fra Zier Tre vice.