The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-13 00:00:00

Merchants of Ireland ; on the contrary, it only tended to harass them. It was the more unneces. I sary to make these duties perpetual, because, from the unfortunate state of the Irish Finances, the Irish debt would soon bear that proportion to the debt of Great Britain, that the Finances of the two Coun tries must, under the provisions of the Act of Union, be consolidated; consequently in two, three, or four years, all these duties, which were now granted for ever, must be revised, altered, and many of them repealed. What then was the use of this measure ? It could only tend to harass the Merchants. •It was • said that it would increase the security of the pub lic creditor ; but did the public creditors demand any such security; were they not perfealy satisfied with the duties being granted annually ? nay, when the Parliament of Ireland once voted the duties for only three inonths, did the public creditor complain that his.security was injured ? The interests of the Croivn were also affected, because some of the duties which formed the hereditary revenue were repealed, the hearth duty, for instance, in a great degree e so that it would be impossible to grant tie. Crown an equi .valent for the hereditary revenue, because it would be impossible to knOw to what the hereditary revee a ntics would amount. It had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the Merchants of Ireland' were satisfied with this Schedule of duties, except in a very few instances. Upon this subject he could only say, that he had seen a representation from several Mer chants in Dublin, in which they objected to above 40 articles he would not now go through them all but the Right Hon. Gentleman knew that with re- gard to the drawback upon the exportatidh l Pf foreign herrings, they had presented strong retnortstbneea they . had also made strong objections to the Duties on Drugs, and on the importation of foreign . Hops, and, above all, upon the export duty on the Linen Trade. It never would have been- believed, that a perpetual Duty of Four per Cent. woUld, have been laid upon the export of Irish Linens. It was a circumstance ,worthy of remark, that the first perpetual Duty that was ever laid on in Ireland, was a Duty upon the Export of her Staple Manufatture. The Right Hon. Gentleman was the first person that ever proposed even a temporary Duty upon the Export of that article. With regard to the sche dule of the Duties, it had only been delivered last Tuesday, and it was impossible to consult with any • person from Ireland upon the subjel, or to consi der it with ?hat deliberation which so important a a u laieCt deserved. Upon the whole he could not see any reason why these duties were to be voted .permanently e he could not account for it on any principle of wisdom, prudence, or cteminon . sense ; it would not increase the Revenue, it would not give additional security to the public creditor, it was not wished for by the merchants, on the contrary, they were decidedly against it. Why then would the Right Hon. Gentleman persist in voting these Duties, even when he knew they must be revised a short time, for the reason he had before stated If the Right Hon. Gentleman would now consent to propose them for one yea: lie would, not oppose them, because he knew that no othei duties were prepireal ; but if he persisted in his intention of now voting them for ever, he should move to insert in the Clause these words of limitation, viz. " from the evil March, So.{., to ae March, tso j." • Mr. CORRY said, he really felt himself, in some d egree , a t a loss tb answer the-arguments, if argu. ments they could be called, Which the Right Hon. Gentleman had urged against this measure, on the ground of the duties being voted without limitation; and the inference which he seemed to draiv, was, that if they were now voted in that manner, that Parliament would not have complete power to alter, revise, or repeal all, or any part of - them, which might he deemed necessary. If a young man, not possessed of any parliamentary experience, new to the forms and proceedings of that House, were to in eke such an 0!- in4ion, the House would excuse him. But he would be informed, that if he sup. posed, that because a Bill' was passed without arty limitation, that, therefore, it must of course be perpetual, that ht was labourirg under a complete •error. He world he told, that it was the uniform pra4ice of the B r itish.P.tr‘liament to vote all duties and taxes permanently, aed that they never felt any - shame on alt4hig or repealing any of them, if cite eumstances should change and render it necessary ; and it was now the praCtice to introduce into Bills a Clause anew ing them to be altered or repealed In the same Session ; and he recollected when, io compli ance with this wise and salutary pratflice, he 'intro_ duced a Clause of that kind, the Hon. Gentleman accused him of having introduced it merely from a conviction that, the meesure he waf; proposing was erroneous,' and that it would be necessary to re. peal Mr. FOSTER said, he never meant to contend that it was not in the power of Parliament co'alter or repeal a Bill, ,though it had been voted without limitation, 2,Ir.,CORRY said that there was then an end of the : argument open that Stilueet, for the whole of the Right Hon. Gentleman', ohjeetion 1)4 turned upon the impropriety of doting the dtitlii j fof t ever. Indeed one part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's br:ech was a complete answer to the other, for at one time he urged the impropriety of vOiing the duties for ever, and in another he' contendid - that they must in a very short time Undergo a . cOniPlete revision. With regard to what the Right Hon., Gentlertimi had said, abou t t he duty 'on the export of - linen, he had so ftiquentlY answered those ob . kaions, that lae wis almost ashamed again-to 6c_ olpy the time of the House upon the Subjeft. But, he believed he must fellovir the example of a great -mat) in that House; who having frequently answered • ,the. objetiohi that were made relative to the' Ame .rican Witi.,lafla finding the same ObjeCtions - eon - stintiv repektecl, at last declared "that whenever any Genite6ln on the . other side made his American speeeli; 1:& would make his Ameritian speech-also in He would therefore shortly'state the prin ciple Upon which that measure Was 'founded: It was this, that 'the' manufactures of the two Coun tries not to be sent to Foreign -Countries Under di Brett burihens. . - He begged ,the Right: Gcntleman . for one moment to' consider what he 14"pulC.1 feel if an'y English Member-were to move. {he ntitigini . neet Was to-be . exporttiVireeolduty, IA hilt Irish linen was to be subjea lb duty ; he would instantly exclaim against it on every pririciple of justice and equality, and this was what he asked 'Ort the part of; Ireland. There ,Was not one article of Biitish rnantifieturel that was not subje& to, this Export duty. Her woollen manufaaures, her glass, her, hardware, her pottery, all were subjeet to. this duty except only cotton, and there the Export duty was commuted into a duty on the Import on the raw inaterial.• There was not a single article used in the British manufatture of linen that was not taxed on importation, except flax : ashes paid a duty on importation into England—they were im ported duty-free into Ireland ; barilla paid a duty on importation into England—it was imported duty free into Ireland ; brimstone - paid a duty on im. portation into England, while it was imported duty-free into Ireland, and so through every arti cle used in the manufaCture of linen : every one of them paid a duty on their importation into England, and every one of them were imported duty-free into Ireland. These were the advantages which the Irish Linen manufaCture possessed over the English one, and in addition to this, the Right Hon. Gen. tleman now proposed that when English and Irish linens were exported in the same ship to the same market, that the English linen should pay a duty of 4 per cent, and that the Irish linen should be ex. ' ported duty.free. He asked could this be contend. I 'ed upon any principle of justice ? He was sorry to be obliged to make this statement, but the Right Hon. Gentleman forced him to do it. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the persons concerned in the linen trade ohjeEted to this measure ; but it was not natural that the persons engaged in the trade should view the subje4t in so extensive a man. ner as Parliament. He meant not to accuse or speak with the slightest disrespect of the persons en gaged in the linen trade of Ireland ; he knew they were intelligent, liberal, loyal men, and he was convinced they would not cbjed to a burthen which was necessary to maintain a contest with an enemy, whose objet was the destruaon of the trade, in dependance, and happiness of both Countries. The Right Hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to hold him Out as the first person who proposed a Duty on the Export of Linen. It was not he that had done it, it was the necessity of the. Empire, it was the pres sure of citurnstances that rendered these measures necessary in hods Countries, It was nut therefore right, to hold up any individual, or.even Parliament to censure, for doing that which could not be avoid ed, and which was necessary for the salvation of the Empire. With regard to the objections which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made respecting the Fo reign Herrings and Hops, he had before answered them. Upon the whole, therefore, he contended, that by voting these duties in the manner he had pro posed, the interests of the Crown would be more effec. ually provided for, the Public Creditor woulii obtain greater, security, and the Manufacturer would have as ample means of obtaining redress as if the duties were voted annually. Mr. BURROUGHS objected to the. duties being made permanent, unless copies of the - schedules were • transmitted to Ireland, and sufficient time given for their consideration. Mr. CORRY replied, that due notice had been given in Ireland. Lord CASTLEREAGH defended the permanency of the duties, on the ground of general convenience, but expressed himself inclined to agree to the Chair man's reporting progress and asking leave to sit Mr. FOSTER said, he had not heard of any schedulers having been transmitted to Ireland. Mr:Coa rTlied, that schedules had been sent to the difEA-ent bodies of Merchants, and to all the ColleCiors both of Customs and Excise in Ireland. After some further conversation between Colonel HUTCHINSON, Mr. CARR; Sir JOHN NEWPORT, end Mr. G. PONSONBY, Mr. FOX complained of the trouble given to Members, by measures being brought forward which it was afterwards thought proper to abandon. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he did not understand there was any inten tion to abandon the measure. The delay asked was, he understood only till to-morrow, in order to give time to compare the schedules sent to. Ireland with those of the present `Bill, after which it would he a matter for consideration as to what was to be dune with the Bill. 11 After a few observa.tions from , Mr. LATOUCHE, it was at length agreed that the Chairman should report progress, and tl:e Committee were ordered to sit iaain to-morrow. VOLUNTEERS. The fl use having resolved itself into a Corn. 'mime on the Volunteer Bill, Mr. Secretary YORKE, after proposing several verbal Amendments, which were agreed to, cal led the attention of the Committee to an amended Clause, with respect to the power to be given to Commanding Officers to dismiss aoy of the Members of their respesUve Corps. No law upon the subjeet had, he said, given them that power, but that they possessed it there could be no doubt. A Command ing .officer heel the command of the Muster-roll, and could strike out whom he pleased. He pro. posed, however, that no Commanding Officer should possess this power, where the Corps which he com mands was called out into a&tral service in case of invasion, or the appearaoee of invasion, as in that case the Volunteers would be placed in the same situatiop as Regular Regiments, the Public would have an interest in their services, and no Command ing Officer ought to possess the power of dismissing any one of them. He also intended to propos e t h at this power. in a Commanding Officer of a Volunteer Corps should be limited. He certainly thought that the exercise of this power ought not to be left to the caprice of a Commanding Officer, and he therefore • considered it necessary to state some of the cases in which char authority should he 'used, such as diso bedience of orders,, misconduCt,whilst under arms, neglen of attendance, &c. adding likewise, or for any other sufficient cause at the discretion of such Commanding Officer. He was extremely averse to the establishment of any Court of Appeal upon this subjeei t because he did not wish to fetter Command ing Officers of Corps, but at the same time he thought it necessary that a door should be left open, by means of a provision, leaving it in the discretion, of Ilis Majesty' to institute, threngh the medium of the. Lord Lieutenant, a Court of Inquiry with lc spea to the dismission of any Volunteer. it was likewise his intention to propose, that where any roles or regulations for the government. of. any Corps, had been acceded to by His Majesty, nothing in this Clause contained should tend to abrogate these rules or regulalions. On the suggestion of Mr. StURGESS BOURNE, words were inserted to prevent the power of dia_ minion entrusted to the Commanders of Corps . extending to any Commissioned Officer. Mr. FOX thought, that the Clause went to give a power to Commanding Officers of ought not to be intrusted to any man. Volunteers, it was well known, were intitled to certain exemp tions : power was here given to a Commanding Offi. cer to deprive a person on a sudden of all, these ex emptio.s, and not only .that, but in case a Volun- teer was drawn (as he might be), and set aside in the List' proVided for that purpose, it would be giving a power to the Commanding Officer to send that man immediately into the Militia or Armfof Reserve. It might be said, that such a power weld not be abused ; but considering the number of Volunteer Corps in the Country, they ought not to rely upon such a supposition—on the contrary, they were justified in supposing, that private eumity might operate in some cases to drive a man from the ranks. As to the idea of a Court of Inquiry, it was scarcely to be supposed, that a man thus dis missed, could .have sufficient influence to obtain a • Court of Inquiry upon his Commanding Officer. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' agreed with the Hon. Gentleman, that the Clause went to give a very considerable power to a Com manding Officer, and yet, after considering the sub je&, he was satisfied that such a power could . not, , with propriety or safety, belodged elsewhere. He should not, however, have consented to this. Clause, if there had been no provision for a Court of In quiry. It had been said by the Hon. Gentleman, that an individual dismissed had little chance of obtaining redress, but it was one of the happinesses attending this Country, that injustice would not be infiitled on the meanest individual, without his-being able to obtain 'redress. A great number of the . Volunteers were enrolled in detached companies, to each of which there were no more than three Officers; if an net of injustice, therefore was alledged against one of those Officers, a -Court of Inquiry which ought to consist of three Officers, could not be held in that Company, whilst the Members of it might probably object to being judged by the Of ficers of another Company, the only remedy remain ing therefore was to leave in the - hands of,the Lord Lieutenant, the power of instituting a Court of In quiry with respect to cases of alledged injustice in the dismission of Volunteers. ' Mr. Fox and the CHANCEL LOROf the EXCHEQUER severally explained. Mr. WARD thought some exceptions would arise from the wording of the Clause. . Mr. PITT thought that this was a hardship ppon the Volunteer, for he might thus he on the sudden, without knowing any reason for it, rendered liable. to be ballotted for the Militia or the . Army.,of Re. serve. Now he had. no difficulty in saying:that the ground on'which the Commanding Officer might dismiss a man -was easily stated in general ;- the grounds which were all stated in . the Bill were easily assigned by the Corninanding - Officer, such as want of attendance, want of attention, , and another reason, which was the etre& -of : the other two faults; want of discipline ; these were causes which the C o mmanding Officer. might easily alledge for his discharging a man ; , but . there teas, another reason of as much force in causing thedik/Carge of a man as any other,. and which could - n - orwith -any' propriety' be Alledged for dismissing a man, and' that was his charatter, he meant the badness of his" charafter, which might be of such a kind as that . others might not like to aft with him, and yet this reason could .not in the nature of things he very conveniently assigned as..the cause of his disrnigsal• although it was in itself a very sufficient reason for it. But perhaps it might be- propet' to make some application in such a case to the Lord Lieu tenant of the County, or else' there ought to be some Court of Inquiry into the matter, before the dismissal took place, not. by way-of appeal against the determination of the . Commanding Of ficer, for of that he had no .idea. Now he saw no difficulty in allowing the Commanding Officer hits= s elf nominating, or else applying to the Lord Lieu tenant to nominate two or three persons as a Council or Court Martial, or Court of Inquiry; to judge of the case, and determine upon it, and that if their determination should he approved of by the Com 'mantling Officer, that then such Commanding Of ficer should have power to dismiss such person, for any of the causes enmerated in the Bill, or for any other sufficient cause ; but he confessed he thought that before any man was dismissed, an inquiry should, be instituted into his case, and that it should not he left wholly in the discretion of the Commanding Officer, who would really not think the Legislature used him well, by imposing upon him the burthen of deciding, in all cases by his own discretion : and leaving to him all the responsibility which must belong to the exercise of such _a power as this Clause was calculated to bestow upon the Commanding Officer. _ - The SECRETARY at WAR said, it did ap pear to him, that the Court of Inquiry suggested by the Right Hon. Gentleman was the more übjetlion.. able mode of the two, and that the inquiry on a man's charaCter was more objek`.tionable than an in quiry on any fan that was ;Wedged against him. Sir TV. GEARY saw .some difficulty in procuring Officers, by whom an inquiry should he instituted ; he was therefore inclined to think, that thi better way would be, to give the proposed power to the Commanding Officer. Mr. ROSE observed, that there was great force in what hid: been said by his Right lion. Friend near him (Mr.'l 3 l rr) upon the hardship to which a - man in a Volunteer Carps might he exposed when. discharged on the sudden by-his Commanding Offi cer, for he was immediately subject to either the Militia or the, Army of Reserve. He had ro idea that any appeal should he had Against - the decision of the Commanding Officer,' that would be repug nant to all ideas of military di;Cipline-; -bur what he - meant was this- 7 -That the Volunteer discharged by the Commanding Officer shOld he at liberry to :10- ply to the Lurd Lieutenant, 4h6 if he' thought the person net culpable, have rwer t° empr him from billlot in the Militia, or the AtmY Reserve, but not by any means to restore him og al " to the Volunteer Corps out of which he had be et ' discharged. The question was put, whether the restriaing words of the clause should be omitted or inserted. gg . to Mr. GREY m2ved to leave out the words , a discharge," that.is,,giying_pwer to the,Comm in , ing Officer to discharge, for the purpose of 11 ?" traducing the words "to summon ;" that i$ (6 empower the Commanding -- Officer to summon a number of Officers to institute an inquiry into .the case, for the purpose of giving their opinion IV" the matter, instead of leaving it to the Commanu- S ing Officer himself. Mr. SecretaryYOßKE objeCled to this amendment' This clause, as it now stood, he said, had bee n aged upon in a great many instances in the course of the present War, and he believed in the 13s , t War. He admitted that the power given by this Claude to the Commanding Officer was very gr eat f yet he maintained it was a power given in /jet* many other powers ; and he apprehended, tha, t if the House controuled his power within any Ihn it ,:"; it would in substance put an end to all real powe r i v . the Commanding Officer, because this was the ,„"' mode by which he could retain any essential CoT a ; ,nand. A great deal was said on t he idea cri t ", Commanding Officer calling a Court of InVi r i; theta was no necessity for making any Parliamentat' Provision for that purpose, for that was the e °o• slant praetice of the Commanders of the Volon te " „ Corps at present ; but what he contended for wa 9 e that it should not be made compulsory on , t L e Commanding Officer to do so. And the Constn' t `" o would understand that this Clause introdueed, c i s novelty in praCtice, for the very same power tt by the Clause was proposed to be bestowed upon f ti' Commanding Officer, was a power already OK' de fat o by all Commanding Officers. of Mr. GREY said, that the duty of the : House not to trust that - power would always be ercised, hut .to guard against the possibility 0 ' abuse of it. • The Right Hon; Gentleman s aid s no new power in point of pradlice, was peop00 0:1 ,, / e this Clause :--he did not speak against the , Ch“ - ,,,, on account of new power, but on account of th e n-e ers effeet which was likely to . be produced .by. ! . ' e 'rise of an old power, for it was well know" . that a person dismissed horn the Volunteer . C °1 1; was subject to the Army . of ReServe,. P e „" n ' t which was considerable,: and which co ol, ' — .ll be commuted but for a large sum of alone): ; a 2, which did - not attach i 4 t h e l ast War. He w-- against the idea ()fan appeal from the determina tion of the Commanding Officer, whatever that deter' o mination might be, because to call it in clues tin was unfavourable to discipline, but he would low the commanding Officer call a Court Of InqPilT.:• instead of -determining such a point himself; snun. the propriety 'of this amendment he was so well e° vinced, that hg_should take the sense of the C 019.. mittee upon it. • obsery Mr. Secretary YOR - Kran sw - eied the tions of Mr. GREY, and retained the opinion heli, 4 alseady.delivered upon this subject. Mr. .FOX said, there, were a great many 5; lations in the Volunteer Corps themselves, at Erne in -a great' number of them, that were inconA,",wrthe with this Clause, and perfedly consistentsfr' g oin t amendment proposed to it, and that W 39 3 .wotthy of the consideration of the Committe e ' t he Mr. PlTTsaid, he did not understand it t° be nQ idea,of any one, that the decision.of the .CP 3l°l '* l se t; ing Officer should he scythed in any ease vib a n c is but he had no difficulty in saying that, in l'•'s(a-orp nion, s the best way would be,. that the v„ or t manding Officer should- summon a Council Yr r oe , of Inquiry, that, they might exercise their d's rt Lion on the case, not indeed like.a Court :of according to -the rules of special pleadings, tor t would beSimpraCticable in military matters ; b u thought it would be better to have the discre ti° le; two or three persons instead of one in such a •C °u lti but he believ e d that no b o dy i n t h a t House i ii ta v ) , wish t h at an y determination should be Carri ed ing ion. Officer without the approbation of the Comm a ' o n. Officer of the Corps. He adopted this su?g e ' i lle in this instance, with a view of submitting' t° ,,jt• sam e cours e the idea he had pre sse d in the C° °l d rr tee on a former day, on tile subjeCt. P ectlnl s e• fines for n onattendanc e , m i scon d u ct, an d thr , " t he The ATT )RNEY GENE/Z.44i. opnos' r ,'S s rise Amendment, on the ground that would bel ii ":l 0 in the C,tninittee to reject a cause re ss." much of utility fur its °hied, until they A v l o 11 0 tisfied what it was t h at w as t o be propose' ss - so tle: of it ; and theref o re he thought that unless ' b olo men on the ocher side who opposed this clato e , s cr aid state distinctly and specifically what they i0 ) 1 1 to be substituted for it, the Committee 0"g .. . 0 41' vote for the clause, because otherwise the C°":,6 to tee might have as much, perhaps more obj eB-I ` . s at that which was to be protiosed afterwards th a l l co lo body had to this clause ; and it was indeed dll c a if not impossible, to offer any thing upon c olt measure as this that was not liable to some, or to con 4 itierahle opposition. An efrif ie Mr. GREY said,. he did not think th e / Pt of the Learned Gentleman sound, when he sal •ttefr no clause ought to be negatived by a Coll°3l 010 however faulty it might be, unless the pets °° 0 0 1 objected to it, had a precise form of words to instead of it ; but in this case the substance of ; s o lies had to urge in favour of the amendment vierot obvious to the Committee, that it would be -n° g tax even on the ingenuity of the Learned Gieefont, man to put it into a specific and intellig ib L i of words—He could also do the same thing "molt very soon,.if the Committee adopted the at ner ! for the purpose of making way to it. e . to . the Lard C ASTL,EREAG II was totally aye," f ad ° idea of establishing a Court of Inquiry, Ins"Ccit' -committing the case to the discretion of tr' e er blr rnunding Officer.' He apprehended g t e at' tili n g" f ifi clogging the discretion of a Commanding. ol6 000' 'cases of this description. He thought ° r a d be e ' tnittee would do well to con , ider wha t `„ l : oo , ti fi j the: ease with: Ireland in the late Rebei'sher, -what would have-been the case with it t " C o° ' • not beto,poWets so 'considerable given to th i e ,, t manding. Officers there. He did not say n t i oe 11 was at this time ; •or was likely - to bec"hat ,1c condition of Ireland ; but it was -possible 1