The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-04 00:00:00

ti .even and Trinidada. In fine, his Royal'High po.s detThired his opinion, that the present Peace bid as fair for permanency as any Other in the His tory of the Country ; the more especially when he contemplated the Articles in the Russian Treaty, which gave him the fullest proof of the sincerity of France, , a ndsatisfadion, as it evinced the great and preponderating power of England; whose condud was such.as. to shew to France the necessity for her desi&ting in.. any..shape to interfere or meddle in her internal concerns ; it was with the greatest plea sure, therefore he supported the Motion. Lord YfItSTMEATti stews in favour of the Peace. Loid TELHAII4, In an,able and argumentative rpeeth of some length, which our limits prechideus from detailing,' deii nded the Preliminaries of Peace,' and confuted the various objedions which had been urged by a Noble Earl and a Noble Lord, parti cularly against them ; in czaiclUding he apologized. 'for detain:no - the House,. and said, he felt the mote • justified, as 'the great and salutary measure in ques tionwoulcl be defended by those who possessed more information on the siihjed than,himself, and possessed more eloquence and ability to deliver their sentiments with the desired efftd. • Lsrd r;RENVILLE said, he should be' happy to concur with their Lordships in congratulating His Majesty cro an hon6urable termivation of the contest in which we had been engaged, but he was sorry to :-ay, that in his•best judgment, there seemed no cause for so doing. So far from the ob jeds of the War having been attained, he asserted, that not one of the legitimate . objefts for which we had entered into it, had been eg - etted :—the chief of tli9Se were Security and Safety btft the fart was, that we were now certainly, in a more perilous and dangerous situation, than at the moment when the Negotiation began. Theobjed of the Noble Lords Who supported the present Address, was, to carry up to the Throne an Address, in which the Nego tiation was treated as advantageous to this Country, arid as honourable to the national character. So far froth thinking it so, his Latdship considered it as the utmost step of degradation and humiliation. It had the begbinilz of •the., : present Treaty been declared, that it was to be viewed only as a question of terms, and as such, therefore, it was to be investi gated, and its merits to be etsiniated by an examin_ lion of those terms. In. all discussions on the subjed of Peace there were two points to be attempted, the first-was, to treat on the terms of the-statio quo ante - helium, - and if that should be found impradicable, then to attempt a Negotiation upon the principle of . the uti possidetis. One or the other of these should be made the basis, And which-ever should be laid down, any departure from it should he matter of serious and careful attention. If our situation did not - warrant our proposing the status quo, and if no 'p a rchment could restore affairs to that situation, if such was oUr 'inferiority that we could nor propose 'it, then indeed the other alternative ought to be • taken into consideration. He was happy, however, to hear from all Noble Lords who supported the ,Address, that this was not the case. This admis sion relieved him from a detail, by which he meant to shew that at no period, and particularly not when the-Treaty was signed, were we inferior to the Ei lern y Our situation was indeed . that of success, and it was urged that this was the most destrabic date to treat, which indeed it was, because it was then ' that the bei;t terms could properly be insisted on. It was with tegard to this circumstance that he should take a view of the relative state of the twoCou'ntriese France had acquired great and extensive acquisitions, which, he admitted, had been rather under than over-rated. Besides the Netherlands, the Nati, nate, and the territory on the Rhine, she had, as dependencies, the Batavian,.lielvetic, and Ligurian Republics ; so that she, was n>at only powerfbl by 'extent of territory, but was proteded by a chain of Dependencies. In opposition to thiS, we• had ac. quisitions hardly less brilliant in our Navy and our ColOnies—we had Egypt, Malta, and Minorca. The Mediterranean was shut up to France and Spain. We had in the Eas't every thing but Bata via, which, froth its unhealthy climate, we thought rot worth possessing at the price which its morta. lity would cost. In the West Indies, we have every thing except St. Domingo--Trinidad was in our possession. On the Continent Of South Amt.,. rica, we had an Empire of great value, Surinam, Demerara, Essequibo, and Berbice. let this state, by adding to our Colonies. the : Empire.of the Sea, we had made our Colonies permanently our . own. (t had 'been said that the aim of the pre_ • sent War was not colonial acquisition, yet the attention of Administration had been wisely di xe6led to that objei.l, because theie clever could , be a War . in 'which" it was not proper ple the exertions of the French Navy. What was the use of them,? They could be held for, the pur pose of indemnifying our Allies, and placing them in their former state of independence ; - or, if that could-not be done, they mi A llt be held as a counter balance to the stiengtn of France. The Noble Se cretary had rested his defence on the argumentun ad hominem, Which on such a subjeft his Lordship de_ precated as improper. If his Lordship's conduft in the Negotiation at Lisle wanted defence, he left it , to hiS Colleagues. At that period nothing compa ratively was ceded; bur after placing ourselves in, a better situation, it was surely hardly proper to say that we should take no advantage. of our improved situation. The Negotiation at Lisle was under ' taken when the spirit of the Country was more de ptessedithan at any period before or since.; and if he were asked , why that moment was chosen, he would have answered, that the War could not have been: carried on, unless the Public had beertiatisfied that no Peace was to be obtained, , but that whieh, went to the destruction of this Country-. The de pression was produced by the -stoppage of the Bank, by the defection of our Allies, and, by what he wished to forget, the Naval Mutiny. If Peace had been then concluded,. we might have been justified.—lt was contended, that by the present Treaty much was obtained, as beside Ceylon and Trinidada, we had obtained security for. our Allies. His Lordship contended, that in the Negotiation at • Lisle we had stipulated every thing for our Allies, and had been willing to concede on our . own part. .In the present Treaty we 110 7 made no provision for the,YR.INCE of QRANG . E,.fot whom, , in the Pro-. • jet at Lisie, there had been an - express stipulation.. It was the more becoming on the part of this Conn. try to have made such - a stipulation, because 'the - Colonies which had been restored to Holland had been obtained by means' of him. The Noble Lord then took a view of what had been done for Portu. gal, whieli,he considered as too little, arid as don. gerous to Our interests, by offending the French a Naval Station in the River of Amazons,--4n the East, his Lordship considered the accession of the Mysore Territory as not to be under-rated, but as forming no part of the merit. of the. present Peace. He deprecated the cession_ of Cochin, for which the Projet at Lisle stipulated so expressly, .and on the importance of which to the safety of India, him Lordship particularly insisted. With respeEt to the. Cape, he considered the cession of it particularly: unfortunate, schen we' had lOst, as we should find we had done on the event of a new War,: Portugal as a place of refreshment for our Troops on their voyage to Inein;. In . the West 'lndies' he regretted that Trinidada: had been preferred to Martinique. In the Mediterranean, all that we had taken we had ceded, and the Porte had been . corn pelted to exclude us from enjoying any particular commercial' advantages, after the greatest service that had ever been rendered by one Country to an other. His Lordship particularly inveighed against the Preliminaries as unsatisfactory, and . as leavinv too much to be settled by a Definitive Treaty. He, considered Preliminaries, where so much was letti to be discussed, as little better than a Naval Arniis tke. On the subject of the Newfoundland Fishery,' the words of the Treaty were different froni Those generally employed, and therefore dangerous. His Lordship, at great length, went into the danger to which the Country would, in it's internal situation be exposed, and concluded by hoping that the Peace Establishment would be such as' to averodanger.' The LORD CHANCELLOR, in an admirable Speech, which the lateness of the hour at which -it was.delivered;prevents us from doing justice to, en tered at great length into a refutation of Lord Gren ville's objedions. He . was aware, he said, of the difficulties of the situation which, great as the Noble LOrd had .stavd them, were yet greater ; inasmuch as the - Northern Confedeiacy, formed for the destrudion of :this Country, 'was then at its height. Great Britain was then in arms against the whole world. In such a situation, some idea might be formed of the difficulty of all Negotiation. - It had beekdetertnined repeatedly in .Parliament, that the origin 'of the War, was the desire' of this Country to preserve itself from' doctrines destruc tive of, all Government. There might be others, but this was the parliamentary character of it. He was sensible that such was.the situation of Europe, that let any Peace whatever be concluded, there might be a difference on the subjed , in the most respectable minds. He was to make such; a _one as his own conscience told - him was right.— He would not make any dishonourble concessions, but all he hoped was a Peace which would produce security. Though not inclined to adol'A the argu, mentitav ad hamiveitt, yen when it was ad talent hominiin, he might be excused. He maintained that he was entitled to consider the Peace as hontiurable, because among the Papers on their Lordships' Table, was an Address4n the Projet at Lisle, representing the -Peace which it proposed as likely to be lasting to she Country and honourable to the Crown. Look, ing to this Peace, he saw no reasonable objeaion advanced :to it, except by those who considered all Peace as impossible. The Noble Lord had said that the Negotiation at Lisle was undertaken when The Nation was under great depression ; he must, howeVer, have meant, either, that the terms should, or should not have been accepted ; the lot_ ter he certainly could not say he meant, and, if the former, then France would, 'by the acceptance of them, have obtained tern neither honourable : to the King nor safe' to the People: In this Negotia - - tion he had been guided by his own judgment, aided by the former Address of the House on the subjea. He thought the Noble Lord would not have been justified in refusing the terms now concluded, had they been offered in 1791. With tespea to 'Cochin, •We had now the Mysore, and surely had Cochin been struck out of the Projet and the Mysore - inserted, the Noble Secre tary at the' time would have been well pleased with the change. Of the Cape of Good Hope he. would say, that he would gladly have kept it, if not fed from this Country, and maintained at an expence to which no advantages are commensurate. If there were no other object but this to . contend for, he did not think it worth the expenditure which bad taken .place since 1797,' of tzs millions of money, and an expence of 3o millions to be incurred. next year. His Lordship contended that the acquisitions we had made since 1797 ought not to have,increased our deMands, sinceif his Lordship did not in his Projet require' any of those acquisitions, it was obvious that they were not essential to the great objeet of the War, Secu rity. In that view, a Colony restored was the same.as a Colony never had. His Lordship applied this principle with great' force to the arguments which had' been adduced by Lord GREJOrILL'E against the Cessions in the East and West Indies, and in the Mediterranean, and concluded with ob serving, that the present Government of France was not founded upon the dangerous principles on which some of the preceding were organized, but depre cated, at the same time, the idea that Government would be deficient in vigour or in caution. The Earl of MOIRA rose to give his perfect as sent to the Address ; but while he did so, and gave full credit to the present Administration, he could not but , feel the difficulties entailed upon them by their predecessors. The exertions of our Fleets and Armies had been glorious,' but their successes had been lost to the Country by the mistaken di redion of their efforts. A Noble Lord bad adverted to the tumultuous expressions of joy shown upon the news of the Preliminaries being signed—he could not condemn that mode of the People testi fying their . joy at such' an . event, and 'if there were a few who indulged profligate speculations founded on the Peace, yet' he could not but consider it as the heart-felt testimony of honest feeling; and he was 'willing to hope that the excess which was exhibited upon the arrival of the French Ambassador with the ratification of the Preliminaries, was the effed of that magnanimity which can admire heroism even loan*Enemy, a feeling which he would ever wish . to'encourrige in the Minds of Englisluxieni The Earl of WARWICK, as far as 'we could eollea, was against the Addtess. Lord MULGRA VE took a View of our Successes in the War, and gave his decided sttri)ort to the Address. The Duke of BEDFORD, after some 'anima& versions on the condua of the fdrmer Ministry, gave his applause to the present, for having pro- Cured Peace to The CoOrly; in Whieh - efent he - te- - joiced, and on - which,occasion . he'perfealy concurred in the Address, /o the Throne. The . Earl of WESTAlgagin, in a long and des!dtbry 'Speech, took a view Of the condua of • the . W4r, and expre'ssed his.opininn that.if every Man in the Country - had ',exerted hithself to the , .10 . r.1,Dt, we -might have 'Obtained better Terms of: P.!-:lce. He concurred in the Motion for the Address. The Risholof ROCHESTER said, that it might seem to respire' some apology for him'as:a of the Gospel of,Chridrising to oppose Peace, but he felt a'Auty to his Country whiCh he considered as' paramount to all other considerations, and which pi-bmPted , him tO'speak his opinion clearly and ex plicitly. upon the present momentous occasion. 'He could *Ma- but consider the Treify of PeaCe, which -left France in posieSsion of stich extended territory 'on the:Continent,' as dangermis to this Country, and as delusive in itself. He therefore could not 'concur in the ,Address•tthiedfor; .The BiShop of LONDON ,rose to''speak only one word:—He was the decided 'friend . of ,Peace. The people of this Country had• seen nine years of War and two of famine, and he could not buit rejoice that 'they were relie'ved front both, ' Earl FITZWILLIAM, who'had 'frequently risen in the course of the. evening, said, 'he would not have obtruded himself upon their Lordships at so late an hour, but he; felt it inconsistent' with his feelings and . former cOnduic.l to gibe a silent vote upon the present oegasion. He had ever deprecated ' a Peace with . ,Republican . France; and he could not but do so now as much as he ever had done. The Earl of ST. lIINCENT declared he should, to the latest hour Of his life, recollea with pleasure the part he had taken in bringing about the Peace, which he most sincerely believed was advantageous to the Country, and honourable to our Allies. Lord Viscount NELSON expressed his opinion, that the Cape of Good Hope was by no means worth risking any thing to. retain ; that it was of the greatest importance to wrest Malta from France, but of little value to England as an acquisition, as our Fleets could not at' that station watch the port of Toulon. - The Peace he thought a good one, and that' the Canary owed much to I-Its MAjtSTY, fOr his paternal' care and - goodneSS in bringing it abo.:it. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM spoke at some tenth against` the Preliininaries, as generally inse cure, dishonourable, and disadvantageous in every point of view to the Country. ' •- • The. Earl of 'CA RN A R VON followed at some length on the same side. ' • Lord ST, VIIVC ENTspoke shortly -in -explana tion: • . Lord HOB ART spoke at some letigth, and with great ability, 'in defense of the Preliminaries; grin. cipally in answer to what had fallen from Lord GRENVILLE. With , respect to the PRINCE 'of ORANCE, ' ,Minters he said, had not been-negleel.- till of his interests ; the fa&was, that a Treaty .had been 'in forwardness in Berlin, and it was judged better for the interests of that Prince •to - abstain in the present instance: indeed such was the Prince's own opinion,• and it was so arranged that the affair might be taken up: again at. the. diseussion• of the Definitive Treaty. •• The Question was, now loudly:calk& for, ;and their Lordships divided. For the Address, Proxies 94 20 -1 I 4. Against it 1 o Majority 10 4 . Lord PE LFIAM moved ,thap the Copyention with Russia ,be taken into consideration on. Tuesday next, and the Lords summoned, thereupon, ,which was erAereci accordingly. , - • • At Five o'Clock in the Morning the. House ad journed till Friday. ' • HOUSE OF COMMONS. - TUESDAY, NOV. 3. CERTAIN Accounts were presented from the Commis sioners oft he Customs in Scotland, which Wereordered to lie bn-the Table. • ' A new Writ'was ordered for Nottinghamshire, inthe room of the Hon. EVELYN PIERREPOINT, deceased. The House in a Committee to consider of the Duties on Salt, came •to a ReSolution, that it is expedient to revive and continue an Ad of the 41st Gt 0. 111. for allowing the use of Salt, Duty free, for the Curing of Herrings and other Fish—Report to-morrow. The House also in a Committee to consider of certain Duties on Starch and Spirits, came to a resolution that it is expedient to continue an Ad of the 41st GEO. 111, for re-: ducing the duties on Starch, •and on Spirits made from Molasses or Sugar.- - --Report to-morrow, Mr. Bit A dos brought up the report of the Committee of . Supply, which was read and agreed to, and the said.Com mince was appointed for to-morrow to take into considers. tioa the Supply to be granted to His,Majesty. The. CnAxext.coit of the Exenr.oiAlt 'moved kir an Estimate of the Charges of the Ordinary and' Extraordinary of the Navy for three lunar months commencing from the ist of Jana iSoa—of the Transport Setvice,, and of Prisoners of War—of the Sick PrisOnets of War—of the Army, Garri sons, and other Land Forces; and of Miscellaneous Services for the same period ; and that an Address should be presented to His Majesty, praying he would be graciously pleased to lay the same before the House.—Orderect • RUSSIAN CONVENTION. • • Lord HAWKESBURY moved, that the Order of the Day for the Consideration of the Conveh tion with Russia on Friday should be discharged, and that the same should be taken into considera tion on Tuesday next.—Ordered: PRELIMINARY TREATY.. Lord HAWKESBURY moved the Order of the Day, for the consideration pf the Preliminary Treaty between Great Britain and the French Republic. - Mr. T. GRENVILLE observed that the House were not in possession of those Official Documents which appeared to be necessary relative to the Treaties entered,into by Portugal with other Powers, which would enable them to form a correa judg ment relative to that Article of the Preliminary Treaty which guaranteed the Integrity of Portugal, the latter having been understood : to arise -out- of certain Treaties of which Oia‘klotkss were officially ignorant. The SPEAKER suggested the question wag merely the reading the Older of the Day. Lord HAWKE4BURY said, His Majesty's Mi. nisters were not in possession of those official do cuments alluded to by the Honourable Gentleman/ - and therefore they, could not be laid before the House. But he conceived he had given every tTe cessary information relative to that subjea on a preceding ;evening," in answer to a question of an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. GREY), when he expressly stated tl►at the Integrity of Portugal was guaranteed as it remained after the Treaty of Badajoz, t the exclUsion of all. Treaties made subsequent to' that period. Mr. T. GRENVILLE said, he did not wish to trouble the House unnecesiar4, but he really did' not know any thing "about the Treaty of Badajoz, which he had never seen, and which he believe& had never been published in.this.Country. • Lord HAWKESBORY repeated 1% hat he s9,irl an a former evening.relative to the Cessions made by Portugal,: in the Treaty of Badajoz. • Mr.T..GRENVILLE said, he had'understS that such was• the information given by the Nob Lord, but 'still the House remained ignorant of whole contents of the Treaty of Badajoz. Mi. GREY said, it seemed. extradratil.lry, the Article of the Preliminary Treaty 'ided to, shoUld be understood to. take for its basis, :. !cal between Portugal and, France which had n,„ ratified. It appeared, however, that ivlint—er s were ignorant at the time of signing the Prelimi nary Treaty of another Treaty made betwao France and - Portugali subsequent to the Treaty of Badajoz. It remained . however, to he seer, w' ther France would consent to cancel the latter, and Substitute in its place a Treaty which they had re fused to ratify. Lord HAIVICESBURY said, it was' 'understood' between the Parties at the time the Prelimitlaty Treaty was signed. The Order of the Day being then read for takin the Treaty into consideration, Sir EDMUND - 11^ ARTOPP rose. lie felt deep'. ly, he said, the great importance of the stibjc& novt. under discussion, and hoped for the indu,lAence of the House, upon which he should. not long tres-' pass., Before however he ' proceeded to move the Address he was about to move s he say a few words relative to an event which NI . been received with the utmost approbation aro' aprplause by a large majority, of the Country ; an event which promised a speedy .termination; of a .War ; the; most :bloody and the most , . expensive is whickthis Country had ever been eng.:o.d. A War' howeVer, .in which .we _had, Truth and b Justice our side, and which had. been. supported; .recognize d and confirmed by the Parliarnein and the Pepele ) with a dignity, a zeal, and ati unanimity unexanTe a in the Annals of tlie oss..guntry. In the conduct of ,the War His . M4ljClty ' li:!Millihteri had 1,4'4: ic:.itliot objects ill stiew r s r to , defend* the Coil sr } , In 0 of., the, destructive ,dodzi; ~ , I .lesl champions of,Libeety, subv.e.r.;'ve .if ?..•: . igio° end, of Social. : Orkie.r-;, and' , secontllV,• inordinate and q vision;trY vi - -)1"t 1 " ir. irs attempts to gr - sis • it, t.ac prose ion i t these„ol)j-6t, i i , t . Lentive to Use formation at and it was sincerely to be witift., , could have been .formed swot : the rn(l, of reciprocal and real interest, willn,ut by ambition or 4ny' meaner .t. , regretted, however, that these Allikr.cet, I!.t and that we had, tp lament the disappoin me nt I vI,,LP arose.frem -the want of that support wh:ch ()ugh; 4 °, have., been, conceded by ,those equally iniere ,tea , 11:rith ,ourselves in the prosecution of the 'the .War. With resped to 'the•firht of the, o l)1:. 16 of the War, it liad,.been .completely attained ---'ll' Laves, flicHooour, and Dignity ofEritain, had h , preserved against all attacks arising from a dis" : ' g4ni-411 - g spirit._ Great - Britainpreserved her cq oP Laws, ,spite of the machinations of those svh( 4 sole endeavours were aimed .at their destruttiy i '" and the safety of the .People and of the C o nctitul insured.. - In the -other object of the War we failed.. We' had not. been able to prevent For; friant . adding,t,erritory,to territory, 'and Acqui 6 i i° to - acquisition. The,Alliances which we had 1101.;, ed, diappointetl our expectations, and whilst ' ll° 1 Allies displayed an eagerness to acquire , the ley(A i _of ambition, England displayed poblc twie ct i nimity, 'and a perfed freedom from the sligh te , s; A , shade'of :rapacity or injustiee.in the Terms svlll she had .offered to the Enemy. Ndt hin g had ber, asked but what was the fair pri ce of Peace. Alt however some Gentlemen might think the 'At ought to be carried on, for the purpose of ce s toril the antient Monarchy of France, he would . 05v those, or arty Gentleman, for what useful purr; the War could,now he continued ? were D Q to be obtained, when the most powerful Stt e . s ,i„a the Continent had failed in curbing :tile a" ; 111. of France and for what object of sound poi"cY the War now be continued, when Efiglitau i c : e ? it 'in -her power to, make a safe and honourable l'e a ,, es t —Peace had accordingly been made, and GI 0,, Briiain had displayed magnanimity highly, h 0% nourable to herself—in maintaining the integri t y her Allies, and bartering a part of her a Cquisiti ° ,:i, in return for their security—whilst those ac id tions she had retained, were those the best ealc t ic for her interests and her commerce. Upon whole,' he had no hesitation in declaring hi s tij ta nion, that the Treaty was highly honourable o re Great Britain,—that it was calculated to awls.her interests and increase her prosperity. 1-16 eluded by moving the Address. • Mr. LEE said, he rose to second the IVlotion4iis, the Hon. Baronet. Define entering into cussion of the Preliminary Articles, he wif 3 r t A say a few words relative to the precise objet ° i jaq War. It had been maintained by some, chit he A ° object of the War was the Restoration o f t • c c cient Monarchy of France. Had such reali yi l l 'P o the objet} of the 'War, it would have m et marked and entire disapprobation, conceiviol ot no State had any right whatever to i ntcrfere Internal Politics of another; and a War hal.' n g ari a o ,l l ous an obje&. in view, must necessarily be unjust. He expressly denied, however,Great was the obji.:tt of :the War betoscen Comp l e t‘ tin arid .Flancc. It was a War o f , o f s elf" aigression on the part Of France, aPL" that Vrci., ~. ~~. ce sl Ices upon the C Tlies; and r c L ess at tend ue repeatei brilliant st thus carrie length bet the House. would be I Great Bii flee to th s ecurity f e mut u tiered hay w h treaty bi onPith ly Il k coarse ver orope, e coneei% L .. give,se Pon the 111- Ider all Lord G Gentlerna ported th ( •ent. In rind at wa Country. the Briti: ti nY) vv -- !J v 1 1 -- ettlemen , a