The Sun. — London, England, 1822-02-22 00:00:00

tad far the first time any Sinking Fund whatever. That Fund, it weared, depended entirely upon a surplus in the Revenue, and • la surplus depended on an improvement in the Revenue, and - 40..e.t was still more hazardous, on the economy of his Majesty's t ;Ministers. All thegolden prospects of Mr. Pitt; as to - the °pe . 'itation of this FUnd, it. now appeared were a -delusion, and instead of being of any use, it had, upon. calculation, been an additional expense to, the nation to the amount of thirty mil ' The Sinking. Fund, if allowed to go on at compound . itiktemst, he believed might do something towards the. extinc ▪ den of the debt, but Ministers never would permit it to remain • t rest. He was surprised to hear the resolutioh of 1819 quoted ;by the Right Hon. Gentleman-,a resolution amounting to a ',solemn pledge to hold this fund inviolable. • The creditor surely s.euld not place much reliance on the faith of that H ouse, when they found it so voted in 1819, and it was net in operation be- f0re.1322. But if they were ready to preserve inviolate the pubs lie faith, as had been said, it might be as well to look how the - (lnucellor of the Exchequer had kept-his faith with that part of the public concerned in land. He referfed the House' to the Resolutions passed in 1811, declaring that the pound note ado, considered as equivalent to twenty shillings, and that there was no depreciation in the value of gold. It would he weer, therefore, that persons connected with the landed interests, on the faith of these Resolutions, expected that whist - peace came they should find the pound note of as much value as it had been duiing the war. Without saying any thing more as to the effect of t" . O Sinking Fund, he would advert to the. expences of the nation at the period of 1793, and at the present time. He did not mean to say that they ought :4 bee; an exact comparison to each other, but the one being artiine of war, and this being a time of- peace, they ought to bear some proportion to each other. In 1798, the Civil List aniounted to 898,0001. ; in 1821, 1,057,0001. In the same year the pension list amounted to 134,0001.; 1821, it was 434,0001. • Tha salaries for the former period were 25,0001.; for the latter 72,001. The whole amount of the Civil List, and other per =anent charges, for 170, was 1,111,0001. For the present yaite, the amount was 2,043,0001. nearly double. - He admitted tha: the cost of Ireland was in the last, and not in the first; but there were many expences obviously unnecessary, which at the present time might well be spared. The regulation to which he had adverted in an early part of the evening relative to the Spaoish. Government might be a very useful one; if applied as extensively as it fairly might be. With the exception of France, he thought there was no Court at which it was neces sary to have Ambassadors. Envoys or Ministers Plenipoten- . tsar; would be quite sufficient and' less expensive. With re gard to the question as to whether a reduction of taxes would carry with it any relief to the people, he was at a loss to un derstand how there could be any difference of opinion. His view of the•causes of the distresses of the country might - be summed up in very . few words. • Owing to causes which, however erroneous, it was not necessary to investigate, the produce of land did not obtain remunerating prices; and the only way to remedy that was by reducing the supply to a• level with the demand, and by a reduction of taxes. The supply would of course become limited to the.extent of the market in • time, but before that `came about thou sands and thousands would be ruined. A great quantity of mpital would be lost, and above all, circumstances of the most aCieting nature would take place. The farmer would first begin to reduce the quantity of labour—the labourers would then suffer from want of employment, whilst . the farmer became more and more distressed till he. would at length be worn down by evils lie dared not face, to the situation of a pauper, who must go to the parish for support. This had already been the case in several parts of the country, and many rich farmers had been - reduced to the state of parish paupers. Although this was owing to natural causes, yet they ought to lose no opportunity of alleviating the tempo rary pressure of distress. This might be done by the se duction of taxes, which would enable him to enjoy some of the profits of his farm. It was of no use to say that taxa tion was not the cause of his distress, and therefore could not relieve it. If, when the horses of a carriage were down, some wise philosopher were to address those . who were busy in taking off the harness, in terms of reprobation for their folly, saying it was not the harness that caused the horses to fall, trot the stone in the road, he believed he would not be minded, but that these whom he addressed would continue to take off the harness to enable the horses to get up the sooner.—(Hear !) --The effects of the measure which went by the name of Mr. Peel's Bill, had effected a great change in the currency, which must long continue to be felt. The measures which had been passed, tending to depreciate the currency, were fraught with as much misery, and as extensive ruin, as foreign in vasion, the visitation of a pestilence, famine, or any of those evils which we were in the habit of praying might be avert ed from us.—(Hear, hear !)—He hoped no 41inister would' be found for the future capable of making another such at tetnotn Ile was disposed to laugh at Ministers taking credit to themselves for the improvements that had taken-place in some of the interests of the community. .Every discovery, oven that of a cotton-spinner at Manchester, must 'be made to confer honour on them. If they found for three years, the Manufacturers in that condition that they actually carried star vation in their faces, and misery and suffering in their appear ance, was it because it was shifted next year to the farmer that the wisdom of Government was to be lauded ? However it might chew the incredible power of the country to overcome dif fieultiea, if any thing, blame belonged to the Government.- - With this view of the subject he certainly should give every stopost to the motion of his, Noble Friend. Mr. WHITMORE said, it would be for the general interest to reduce as far as might be practicable the immense load of diebts under which the nation was suffering. o If he could agree With the Noble Lord's Resolution, he should think the country was reduced to that melancholy situation that-it would be ne ceSsary to carry their proceedings still farther, and then he was afraid - they would be in the situation of being obliged to enter into a commutation. with the pubic creditor. Even since he had dicaotl that taxation was the cause of the distress he had troubled hirs“elf to come to the rationale of that proposition. He could weir Onderstand that it might . be the cause of high prices, but how: it could be the cause of low prices he could not so readily comprehend.-(Hear!)—He could certainly understand that if the. country was ruined, if the profits of capital were.so dimin ished in consequence of the high rate of taxation that capital was driven Out of the country, and population decreased, low prices might ensue, but there was no other possible way that excessive taxation could produce low prices. He thought that the Hon. Member for- Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo) had sufli ciently•accounted for the low prices by a reference to the state currency - . Ile (Mr. W;) conceived that a considerable portion of the distress arose from a re-action produced by the stimu- Lot . given durinriethe war to agriculture. -During, that period cultivation had increased greatly • it was well known that pre miums were offered for the best cultivated farm. The object was to stimulate agriculture to the greatest degree it could attain to, and therefore it was that non- the supply was greater than the demand. The years 1320, and 1821, were extremely productive years, and as there was no other market than our own, more was produced than was required for, the consumption of the country, which fell back upon the markets ; and thus that state was produced under which the country was now labouring.— (Hear !)—Flo could in this way well understand how the low prier...s were produced. But the fact was, they must recede to the state of things they had left: Ile did not believe, as the Hon. and Learnnl Gentleman below him (Mr. Brougham) had said, that the ifoorer lands would be thrown out of cultivation ; but the last layer of capital must be taken off. the land. The • high cultivation of the land had brought in a different system of cultivation altogether. • With regard to the poor lands, a great deal had been brought into cultivation long' antecedent to the war. He believed that a great deal of that land would be thrown, out of cultivation, which had been brought in upon , the rise from 80s. to 120 s. in the quarter of wheat. He thought that when cultivation shall have retrograded to the point where it will remain, wheat will be about fiSs. the quarter; and he, thought it would be the duty of the Agricultural Committee • to investigate that point He must•say that he thought it was the duty of landed proprietors to lower their rents. - lie spoke as . a landhalder, of poor land too, with the usual incum braneeS, and it was- his duty to say that his property was considerably ameliorated at the present period as compared with 1792.—(Cheers.)—It was ameliorated. by enclosures, by capital which had been laid out upon it, and by high prices.— (Cheers,j—When he reflected on all the advantages which this country possessed, and none of - the least, the security of property, he eonfeised he could not take so gloomy a view of their state as some persons indulged in. —(Hear, hear !) - T here was an elasticity and energy in the country which would enable it to resist, and finally shake off, the pressure which now bore upon ito-s-(Hear, hear !)—Notwithstanding the blackness of the clouds which surrounded her, there was yet a tinge of sunshine on-the horizon which-he looked to as the harbinger of a briteoter day. When be looked to the •East Indies, to the pastern ArChipelage, and to the golden Prospeet Which . the in dependence of the South Americans opened to vie*, he - could not aft down with thosegloomy apprehensions which Oppressed ethers. —( Loud cheers.) Mr. PRICE declared his entire. concurrence with the Noble Lord (Lord Althorpe.), whose resolution was Wore the Hotise. The diminution of taxation was not a ground on which they were to-tread with timid• step::: 'The House should insist upon tti e.bolitiOn of every useless place, and a thorough economy, and they should look at the assurance that there would be no More rel:let - ions with-distrust; Last year the same was said, but the openitY!i.f.tliis .: Session brought a different story. Those who. were.•loerkeitent- ih the funds should do all they could to clirelnie3.e. - thfo'! TrOtd:ll3 of the country. He could not help ageetriesetOioli the Hon. Meinber who just sat down, in - the latter part of his speech.. From the improvement which had takih place In martufactures, commerce, and even' agriculture, he could not but entertain. hopes of a general •restoration-. • But at the present moment of distress they were bound to use every means in their power to lighten. the burdens'; and upon 'that ground it was that he consented to an abandonment of the Sinking Fund. This would give temporary relief, but he by no means meant to say that it should not at a future time be renewed. Mr. WILMOT assured the House, that as the question had been so frequently debated, he would himself to the ar guments which had been urged that evening, and to which he would advert as shortly as possible. And first he would apply himself to the removal of two erroneous statements which had been made in the course of the debate. First, the Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken, said that his Majesty's Ministers attributed the improved condition of the manufactures of the country to their own measures. ' Such an assertion had never been made. Secondly, the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last said, that • Government declared last Session, that no further. reduction of expenditure could be accomplished. This, too, he positively denied. All that they said was, that the reduction had at that time been carried as far as was consistent with the interests of the coun try. The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, recommended the appropriation of the Sinking Fund to the current expences of the year. Whatever difference of opi nion might exist on other subjects, he trusted that there were very few Members of that House disposed to deny that the maintenance of the Sinking Fund, and of the consequent public credit, was . consonant to the true interests of the coun try. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the Civil List, and to Pensions. 'Now the fact was, that the Crown granted no huger sum in, pensions at the present moment than in 1782. — And with regard to the Civil List, many of the charges on it were the result - of Parliamentary grants during the last war, and could not be repealed without a gross breach of national faith. It was asserted by the Honourable Gentleman, that the people deliberately looked for the . abolition of the Sinking Fund as one means of relieving their distress. And why ? Be cause they had been taught, by men on whom they ought to place no reliance, that the whole of the agricultural distress was the result oetaxation. But when the debates of that House came to spread- among the people, and they should find it the opinion of the best informed persons that taxation, though certainly an evil of great magnitude, was not the cause of our distress ; and that nothing but the most absolute necessity could justify a violation of faith with the public creditor, he had no doubt their sentiments would materially change. On ' the subject of the Sinking Fund he had heard the opinion of Dr. Hamilton misquoted ; and to prove this he would read a passage from Dr. Hamilton's, works—[H ere the Honourable Gentleman rend the passage in ceuestion, the tendency of which was, to shew that the only real Snaking Fund was the surplus of the income over the expenditure.] —al e (Mr.W.) was firmly con vinced that eventually the country at large would be much more effectually relieved by the operation of the Sinking Fund than by any remission of taxation. An immediate remission of taxation would be beneficial to the agricultural portion of the country alone, while every other part of it would proportionably suffer. For his own part he looked for relief only to a cessation of that violent re-action resulting from the extreme exertion duringthe late war in support of the national credit, and defence of the national honour, by which our system had been for a time dis located. He looked with confidence to the event, Miming, as he did, the opinions of the Honourable Member for Porter lington and others, who contended that the people of this country would speedily emerge from that condition which was the consequence of their ' over-strained exertion. He was con vinced that we possessed the elements of prosperity in all the branches of our Agriculture, Commerce, and Manufactures ; and that the energies of the country would be soon liberated, and manifest themselves in every direction. If, however; at the pre sent moment, Parliament had not the firmness to apply our re sources in the mode recommended by his Noble Friend, if they 'I refused to secure a gradual diminution of the debt,aand aban doned themselves to the despondency which some of the Hiinour able Members on the other side of the House seemed so desirotis to inculcate, the fate of the country would theft indeedbe hope less. But of such . an event he had no apprehension. He wished to say a few words on the subject of the change in the value of our currency. It had been argued that the country was entitled to claim a remission of taxation, in consequence of that change. But the certainty of fiuch a change was as well known before 1819 as now ; and, under these circumstances, the solemn sanction of the House was given to the public cre ditor. With the general view which he entertained of the pub lic resources, founded on the maintainance of public credit by the plan unfolded to the House by his Noble Friend—with the multiplied energies which the country possessed; it appeared to him that there was every prospect of our reaching a skate of greater and sounder prosperity than any to which we had hitherto attained. There was much on which they had already to congratulate themselves'; and all that they had yet to do, was to persevere in the course which a sense of justice and. honour prescribed. - • . l Mr. WILSON noticed; generally, the several causes of dis ' tress which had been mentioned, and considered the evil com plained of to lee produced- by their combined operation. The plan of Ministers did not seem perfectly to satisfy the House, but at the same time it was difficult to say what more could be done. i He had no doubt but the 4,003,0001. proposed to be advanced I would do good, but he would suggest that of this suns 1,500,0001. should be reserved for an - other purpose. vv hat he would suggest I was this, that taking the present average price of wheat to be 495. the quarter,the 1,500,0001. should be raised to buy it at thatprice, and to continue purchasing till the average rose to 555. This might be done by individuals, assisted by the proposed loan, but if done by individuals there Would be a danger of its being again thrown on.the market the moment there was a fluctuation of a I few shillings in the prices. He would recommend that the corn thus purchased by the agents of Government should re main stored up till the price reached 695. or 655., or such a price as would admit its beii'g brought to market without doing injury or exciting alarm. This plan would, he thought, afford great relief to the agricultural interests; and even supposing a quarter or half the grain purchased to be lost, he still knew of no way in which half a million, or a million of money could be made to go so far. Such a plan would regulate the corn trade, so that a valuable supply would always be at hand when a scarcity made this desirable, and the farmer, under its operation, would at once be relieved from his. surplus produce, which would not come into the market till such a change • had taken place as afforded the corn grower the prospect of a fair remune ration for his industry. Mr. 13aNxEs, sen., and Sir R. HERON' rose together, but Mr.BANKES, sen. having first caught the SPEAKER'S eye, proceeded. Though he was aware that the subject to which the Honourable Member who had 'just sat down was not alto gether relevatit to the debate, lie could not help thanking him for having mentioned to the House that mode of relief which several of his (Mr.l3's.)friends knew that he conceived to be best aclanted to the 'distress of the country. There could be no doubt of the general proposition, that a diminution of taxation would afford some relief; but Gentlemen, when they stated such a fact, should not forget the relative operation of taxation; its de crease, while it relieved one clasw, might materially injure anoe ther, and there lay the fallacy of their argument. No man could seriously contend for the flagrant dishonesty of raising one class of society at the expence of anotheraa , (Hear.)—With re- , gard to the case put, of the Gentleman who had a mortgage ' of 12,0001. on an : estate worth at the time 20,0001., and , who, it was said, claimed from the Chancellor of the Exchequer an indemnity for the loss he 'had sustained, on account of the .fluctuation in the value of money, which he ascribed to the Right Honourable Gentleman's financial projects, and made the claim upon as valid a right as the fundholder could assert for his indemnity, the plain answer to such a claim was, that the public had entered into no engagement with the land holder, but they had with the fundholder : from the one they had borrowed' on the security of the,public faith, and they had not from the other, - a circumstance which made the whole difference between the two cases. Was 'it not a con dition of every loan contracted by the country, that a cer tain sum over and above the payment of the specific interest should be regularly set aside to create an ultimate capital for the discharge of the principal ? Would it not then be a flagrant breach of the public faith, to say at once that the country must depart from the principle on which' it had, ever since 1792, bor rowed the money? Were they prepared to act in such a manner towards the public creditor, and to abandon in a time of peace the project of'securing a Sinking Fund ? If they once relinquished the principle (if.; maintaining that fund, under what probable circumstances did they imagine they could resume it, . if here after, in other circumstances, they should deem it advisable to alter their opinion ?e-(Hear l)—Some Gentlemen, he was aware, thought the principle of the Sinking Fund a fallacy ; but he, who thought it no fallacy, was not- prepared to .give up a system which he thought would ultimately prove advan tageous to the country. Whatever relief' could be.given by reducing any portion of taxation which the country could spare, he was ready to concede, and to the degree proposed by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Londonderry). Small as it was, he was ready to assent ; it would, he believed, tend to the alleviation of the burdens ,of a part of the community. ' The expenditure of the country ought, no doubt, to be reduced to the lowest scale compatible with its security ; but when the amount of 1792 was talked of, it ought to be remembered that the' present establishments were required for Colonies not then under the government of Great Britain ; and, I therefore, that a larger force was now indispensable than would have been required in the previous situation of the country.—(lfear.)The more he thought of the project of alter ing the place of the Sinking Fund, the more lie was convinced of the inexpediency of the alteration, and that it would be most impolitic to suspend the operation of that fund now, upon the understanding that it should be hereafter revived under more favourable circumstances. 'Unless he saw an alteration in the disposition of that HOUse, and in that Of the people (which he trusted he never should see), he for one should never listen to such a proposition.' 'Who would, in time of .war, have lent their money, if they.antiCipated, on the return of peace, a departure, on the part of the borrower, from-the terms of the contract ? Be *sides they should always recollect that the parties to he affected by the alteration were not likely to be the original stockholders, who bought upon cheap terms, but others of a different class, who paid full price, relying on the validity of the public faith. If the Government were once to act on so loose a prin ciple, they would, in the unfortunate recurrence of any future war, find it very difficult to borrow money for the public service upon the same terms as those on which they had obtained it on former occasions.— (Hear I) Mr. TIERNEY, but for the speech of the Right Hon. Gen tleman who had just sat down, would have left the House most reluctantly that night, after giving a silent vote. He anticipated a Violent attack for what he was about to say. After what had been said on the subject of what had fallen from his Noble Friend, he had certainly little reason to ex pect to escape when he should hare expressed his sentiments on the Sinking Fund. He commented on the support Minis ters received on this occasion from the Right Hon. Gentle man, who had been looked up to as the very Nestor of inde pendence, and he thought another Right Hon. Gentleman who had stood forth as the champion of the present Admi nisrration would hare acted a fairer part if he had met the motion of his Noble Friend with _a negative, instead of pro posing other resolutions. Ile expressed surprise at the con duct pursued by the Noble Marquis on a former night. He having opened the plan of Ministers, had not submitted to them any resolutions founded thereon, but had finished by moving for the production of papers to which no human being could object. It had been said the plan of Ministers was now brought before them. But he saw in the Amend ment nothing about the 4,000,0001. proposed to be advanced in aid of the landed interest. He hoped that part of the plan had been re-considered. Having calmly and dispassionately reviewed this subject; he had now to avow, in the face of the House, that he had conic to a conclusion different from that at which be had formerly arrived. He saw no reason why this subject should not he dispassionately considered. If he were at once to be assailed with ,the charge that he was pre pared to ruin the country by violating public credit, if such an outcry were to be raised, why then it was in rain for him to deliver his sentiments on the subject. But thus making known the impression on his mind, he was confident that the House would give him credit for manliness at least, and he hoped they would acquit him of any thing un fair. He did not think the question on the Sinking Fund was distinctly undCrstood, but they would give him leave ' to say the day-was not very. distant when that subject must come before the House, fur, as the Noble Marquis proposed to employ the simple interest of the Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001, oniy,And nat the compound interest, in reducing the debt, it would be necessary for him to come to Parliament to inure the repeal of Certain provisions, connected with the' Sinking Fund. Either he nyist do that, or he'niust abandon his plan for giving the public that small remission of taxes which it was now proposed to afford. The Sinking Fond at present, he would speak in round numbers, as the Chancel lor of the Exchequer would not fall out with him for half a million—the Sinking Fund at present amounted to 17,000,0001. From this 17,000,0001. the sum of 12,000,0001. was annually taken for the service of the country, and this left 5,000.0001. for a Sinking Fund, to which amount it was now said they had a surplus over the yearly expenditure. It was true, that under the original Act the Commissioners 'for the Redemption of the National Debt were authorised to ad vance a portion of the sums appropriated to that purpose in the shape of a loan for the current service of the year. But no man had ever supposed that in time of peace such large sums would he taken from the Sinking Fund under the name of a loan as should deprive it of all efficient operation. He was glad to hear it argued that there was no abandonment of the Sinking Fund intended ; but fur all this, there was no prospect ofits being- exonerated from the charge of 12,000,0001. claimed - anonally fur the public-service. Could any thing be more absurd than this practice ; this keeping lip the name of a Sinking Fund, while it was takeu away in the shape of a loan by the complicated machinery of borrowing, and attend ed with expense into the bargain ? He believed the attendant expense was 19,0001. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, such an expellee was not incurred by the operation alluded to by the /tight Hon. Gentleman. • Mr. TIERNEY resumed—He would not then insist on that point ; but the complicated Machinery resorted to was per feCtly unnecessary, and it could only be used to create an impresson that we had a sinking fund of 17,000,0001• when every one knew that at the utmost we had but a - clear sinking. fund of 5;000,0001. He would now call the attention of the House to what had been done with the Sinking Fund in the last twenty years. He would pass over what was done in 1802, and come to 1813, when the Chancellor of the Exche quer of the present day did,- as he (Mr. Tierney) thought, lay most violent hands on the Sinking Fund. The reasoning on which the Right Hon. Gentleman did this was not ex actly of a piece with his reasoning on the present occasion. •Then, he contended that the ton rapid iticrease of the Sink ing Fund might occasion great public inconvenience. Now his argument was, that if it were not suffered to increase, the consequence must he an aggravation Of public distress. He did not state in 18i3 (for, oddly enough, it happened that the war added to the means of the country), he did not then state-that it would be inconvenient to impose further burdens on the public, but he maintained that it was neces-• nary to interfere with the Sinking Fund on account of its alarmingly rapid increase. A night Hon. Gentleman, whom he .was happy to - see in his place (Mr .tanning), would , re member this, for he had described the Chancellor of the Exchequer to act as if he were afraid " that the nation would wake,some morning, and have the affliction to find that it had no longer a debt to its back."---(A langh.)—That Right Hon. Gentleman might be easy now, and feel the nation was exposed to no such peril, for by tht measure then brought forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the roor Sink ing Fund had been robbed of no less. than 7,000,0001. Now it was said, that if they touched the Sinking Fund the public creditor would be alarmed. But what said this champion for public credit then ? Why, then he told the stockholder, bringing - forward his calculations, " that plan may take something . from you in the next teh years, but in the to years that will follow you shall have such days ! as von have never seen in your lives." Well, now :.the ten. years were-nearly expired, and the compound interest 10)10 was so much for the public creditor, was now taken away-Irons him, and the promise held out 41 . 1813 was gone altogether. Such being the state of the case, would it be said that he (Mr. Tierney,) doing as he should now do, turn ed his back on the Sinking-Fund ? No, it was not he that acted strch a part by it, but it was the Chancellor of- the Ex cheqper himself. :At the period to which he alluded, he re membered the Right Hon. Gentleman had voted against the motion which he (Mr. Tierney) had made; that the Attorney and Solicitor? General, and the best Law Authorities be ton suited, and directed to report, whether or not the Right Hon. Gentleman could act as he thus proposed to do, without be ing guilty of an infraction of the law as it then stood. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had shrunk from this. He, how ever. touched the Sinking Fund, and was thus guilty of a breach of good faith towards the public creditor. He had thought the Sinking Fund of great importance, and had al ways given credit to Mr. Pitt for projecting it. But that Eightl,o 0 : o Hun. o I proposed to get a Sinking Fund ut new taxes, but by saving so 00.,Gentleman0 n ot by imposi ng much of surplus revenue. He had thought the project of Mr. Pitt one that redounded infinitely to his credit, though pedlars that suggested by Dr. Franklin might have been bet ter. It wits then proposed, that with ail future loans a Sink ing Fund should be provided of one per cent. Lord Thur. low opposed this in the other House; and in consequence of that a great accident happened to him, for he was pre sently turned out of the office of Lord Chancellor. Where; he begged to ask, had the Sinking Fund been in late years ? Where was it. in 1817„1818,,1819, and 1821, and where would it have been in 1822, hut for the reduction, which had for ced it on the Government. An idea was taken up, that the increasing prosperity of the country had given us this Sinking Fund of five Millions sterling. This was not so. In the way supposed we had got but 2,600,0001. sterling. The rest was 'given by reductions. But why were not these reductions made three years ago, be should like to know? Then 6,000,0001. might-by this time have been semi to the country, with a re duction of taxes besides. ~It was not the improvement in the. revenue which gave the Sinking Fund. The increase of last year was hut'about 1,000,0001. the rest was made up front other quarters. He contended that he had now a right to consider bow the 5,000,0001. which had thus been gained had better be disposed of. The Noble Marquis had assumed, that if his plan were adopted, in the next six years 891,000,0001. *tight be taken front the debt. He would suppose 40,000,0001. to be extinguished. The reduction of : 40,000,0001. would relieve the country from 1,200,0001. in interest in the six years; and then after thirteen years of peace—a period beyond the are rage extent of any peace in late times, we should probably have to enter on a new war, with our debt reduced to .what might perhaps he considered the moderate sum of 760,000,0001. But it should be remembered that, to obtain this,. new taxes to the annual amount of 3,200,0001. had been imposed. But then he was said nut to attach sufficient importance to the proposed reduction of the 5 per cents. But this had been talked of in 1818, and they were told that stocks were rising, the interest on money falling so that the nation would soon lie more prosperous than ever, This they were told in 1818, and the neat year the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to ! Parliament for 3,000,0001. in new taxes. He agreed with the Honourable Member for Portarlington, that to raise the funds by artificial means would not eventually benefit the country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might run up the price of stock, but this would not terminate the nation's difficulties. He knew, if the Sinking Fund were taken away that nights the meeting to take place to-morrow. , -qhe sup • posed from the numbers invited to meet the Right Hon. ' Gentleman, that it must take place in Palace-yard, and did know how far a late Act would apply to it)—(a laugh)—but he knew in the case supposed, that meeting might be of little importance. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had always applied himself to raise the price of stock, and he had fan cied' that when he had any thing to say on that subject, he turned his head towards a Gentleman not exactly a Member of that House, as if deterniined that it should go forth to the world. On subjects of this kind the Right Hon. Gentleman did not send for the Hon. Members for York and Suffolk to consult with them what should be done for the public good. In such cases, he invited a few Bank Directors, or one or two distinguished Gentlemen of a different religion—(a laugh)— and being surrounded by such advisers, who bad commonly an eye to self-interest, his object was commonly gained, and they took care to get up the Stocks for their own advantage. This was what the Chancellor of the Exchequer. desired, for it enabled him to make such speeches es be liked to make, about the flourishing state of the country. He (Mr. Tierney) would say this mode of raising the Stocks was productive of no real benefit to the country. It was his opinion, that by thus advancing the funds, millions had been sent out of the country by those who, considering that they had a right to do so, would not place their money where the rate of interest was so low as it was made in England, but sought the best interest they could get elsewhere.— Some might be deceived from the rise in the funds into a belief that the prosperity of the country was rapidly increasing, but let those Gentlemen who took up this idea beware how they acted on it in Sorrowing money, lest'when the wheel went round they might experience a result very different from that which they might at present anticipate.— All this he understood was said to be for the advantage of the landed interest. Now he wished that lauded gentlemen would look well into it, for it was utterly past his understanding how it could be so. 'lf they inquired into the state of the coon try they would find that the proposed plans were totally use less. If they asked whether there was any difficulty in pro curing money, they would be told by every country banker that money was going a begging. It was not money that was wanted, it was security. Unless such means were adopted as would afford security, it was impossible to relieve the distress. If he addressed the country gentlemen as the representatives of the different parts of the nation, he would ask them, what report they would have to make to their constituents when they returned amongst them,if nothing more were done than Ministers had proposed. They could only say to them - 4 " Oh, we found the Stockholders in full force ; we never saw them in better spirits than when we left London; and we have got you a shilling a quarter reduced upon the malt tax."—(A laugh.)—lf this was all they meant to do, in God's name let the country gentlemen moire no more clamour about their dis tress.—(Hear, hear'.)--Let them have no more county meet ings to talk of what they meant to do, and to clamour about the ruined state of the conntry. For it now appeared that they considered this. distressed arm overwhelmed country to have been within one shilling of being the happiest in the world'.-1 (Cheers and laughter.)—lt was suggested that the Sinking Fund should be taken is aid of the general means of the State, to relieve it from pressing difficulties, and this proposition IMil been distorted, as if it meant to leave the Treasury bare, and to ,ret the public creditor shift for himself without secu rity. If there was any one more than another in that House who wished fur the strongest security and safety for the public creditor, it was himself. And he thought it ex ceedingly hard that his Hon. and Learned Friend had been charged with contrary sentiments, for, merely stating a pos• bible case which must obtain if a particular plan or system were not abandoned. In consequence be had been imme diately charged with throwing out dark hints upon dangerous topics. " Oh," it was said, " you see what they are about, and what their plans will lead to." Nothing could be more unwarranted than such charges; and he was sure that nothing passed in the mind of his Hon. and Learned Friend which would not bear the light, or which he would at all be dis posed to conceal. His firm opinion was, that more good would be done by its application to a partial reduction of taxation, than to the redemption of debt. The arguments upon the other side as to the effect to be produced by the re duction of the Five per Cents. were built upon the assump tion that that measure was effected. And although the Right Hon. Gentleman had come within a day of the meeting at which the proposals for that plan were to be discussed, he should bear in mind, that however well his schemes may be laid, some of the persons with whom he had to deal, to use a homely phrase, might be " Yorkshire too."—(A laugh.)—lf they would not agree to terms, it would he necessary to have the money prepared.---(Hear! from the Marquis of Londop derry.)—Well, supposing the money was prepared, and it was a good deal of money too to be prepared with—(A laugh)— but supposing that it was ready, it would he much better applied in reducing the taxes as far as it wouid go. It was curious to hear the Government always talking about the ne cessity of upholding the public credit, when, he believed, that upon the arrival of every quarter-day for several years past; they were obliged to borrow money of the Bank to meet the demands of the public creditor. Neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor any other person, could be lieve that five million of taxes being taken off would leave five millions deficient in the revenue. Every body must know that other taxes would become more produCtive in conse quence of such reduction. The difference betwixt the Noble 'Lord and himself was, that the Noble Lord would give pre sent hope and distant relief, whilst Se wished to have present relief and distant hope. He 'would say, that if five millions of taxes were taken off, to borrow some expressions from the Noble Lord, that wripld fructify and vivify more to thecountry than all the projects which he had brought before the House. Considerable savings were expected further to be made; and if those savings were put to the increased revenues, a suffi cient security would thereby be formed to support the public credit. He begged the House to consider that he had not taken a hasty view upon this important topic, but had duly weighed all the reasons which operated on his mind before he could persuade himself to touch the Sinking Fund. In his conscience he thought they ought not to hold out distant and visionary hopes, but to give solid relief to the distressed classes of the State. He hoped the House would not think that there was any thing alarming in the proposition of his Noble Friend. It pledged them to nothing. It would be for them, after con senting to the proposition, to consider what amount might be taken from the Sinking Fund with safety and advantage, He must remark that the Administration were taking the most ef fectual way to create indifference about retrenchment out of doors, when they announced that all retrenchment and reduc tion were to go to the aid ofthe Sinking Fund. The fundholder had no right to those reductions. The country ought to bene fit by them, for it was to relieie the country that. those reduc tions had'been enforced. With regard to the prosperity of the country, he believed that the sources of its prosperity were revigorated and flourishing. He believed that to be the case, and he agreed with those who stated, that when all the other interests prospered, one would not eventually remain in a state of depression. He did believe that there was a growing spirit and energy in the resources of the , country, and that being the case, where could be the injury to public credit of waiting another year and leaving things to their natural course, before these financial . operations were effected ? The Right Hon. Gentleman here thanked the House for the attention with which they had listened to . him, and con cluded by stating that if he should be subjected to animad version for any change in his opinions, he had at least the satisfaction of knowing that he had so changed his opinions conscientiously, and after the most mature deliberation.— (Cheers.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER addressed the House, but froM the inaudible tone of voice in which the Right Honourable Gentleman spoke, and from frequent noises which took place in the House, it was only possible to collect his sentiments. at. intervals. He was understood to commence by admitting that the Sinking Fund, as it came from the hands of its great founder and promoter, had been reduced to a comparatively small standard. But if Mr. i Pitt's plan had confirmed in operation, it must be recol lected that seventeen millions of taxes more than those now imposed upon the country must have been borne for its support. That plan would undoubtedly have enabled the country to ;rake great financial operations, and great re ductions of debt ; but all those advantages must have been accompanied by the additional seventeen millions of taxes. — If there was any argument in what Hon. Gentlemen opposite asserted, namely, that the bnrthens of the country were even now intolerable, what must have been its state if the Proper ty-Tax, and all the war-taxes, had continued in full opera tion ? True it was that only a small portion of the Sinking Fund remained available to its original purpose,—true it was that out of seventeen millions, only five could now he applied to the extinction of debt; but it was equally true that the country had avoided the necessary exactions for keeping up the larger amount. He by no means dissented from the opi• nion, that when the time came at which the expenditure of the year should be fixed from the Estimates, it might become advisable to revise the system of the Sinking Fund, so as to regulate its stricter appropriation. But such a course must re quire many Acts of Parliament, and great alteration in the public accounts; it was therefore a measure not to be under taken rashly or inconsiderately. He then stated that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Tierney) was erroneous in his statement with regard to the original condition of the Sinking Fund. Here the Right Hon. Gentleman went into an argument, in which he was frequently inaudible, to spew that the Sinking Furid, when first established, was only to have accumulated by compound interest, until it had realized the amount of four millions; and that its subsequent accu • mulation should have been by simple interest. By an Act of 1792, however, it was provided that the Fund should area rAilete at compound interest until the extinction of the debt. The Right Hon. Gentleman had told the House, that all the relief the Government offered to the country was a remission ' of one shilling per quarter on the Malt Tax. But that which in fact it had offered, was a constantly growing and progres sive reduction of taxation. •The House had been told by the Honourable Member for Wiltshire, that the reduction Which the Government proposed would only give a relief of one per cent. in proportion to the farmer's rent. Consequently, if the plan of the Right Hon.. Gentleman were adopted, which remitted four millions of taxes, the relief would only amount to three per cent. Thus a person renting an estate at 5001. a year would be relieved only to the amount of 151. For spa a consideration the House could not sanction a measure which would go to tarnish the public faith, and to destroy the pub lic credit. For if the public creditor saw his securities . taken away one after another, it could not be expected that he would consider this country to hold that proud situation whici she had formerly acquired above all others: When the country was called upon to make a sort of composition with its creditors, they were bound to show its insolvency. Now to what were they to appeal to show that fact ?' Was it to tha state of its revenue—a revenue flourishing in almost' all its branches ? Was it to the state of its trade? New. without going into the statements made by his Noble Friend the other night, by referring to them it would be seen that the consumption of all the principal necessaries of life had increased in a proportion beyond the increase of population, and that the exports and imports had in creased to an extent which proved that whilst we. hid, doubled our consumption - nf foreign articles, the foreigner had doubled his demand for the produce of our manufactures. Was this a state in which it was to be declared that the public faith was slighted, and that the public creditor was alarnied•for the satisfaction of his just claim ? Another proof of the prosperity of the country was to be found in the comparatively small, arrears of the payment of the revenue. The proportion of taxes not recovered in 1815, was double what it. was at the present period. In the last, year, upon a revenue of 26,000,0001., only 450,0001. re mained unrecovered. The •, Right Honourable Member also congratulated the House upon the progress of the Saving Banks, and upon the increased funds lodged in them by the industrious classes.—(Hear.)—Were these the circumstances which should press the reduction of taxa , lion upon us, wh en th a t course wou ld h ave so dangerous ee l operation upon public credit ? He would address Honour able Gentlemen as legislators, and he would call upon them not to allow such a course to he pursecd. If they did so, the greatness and the glory of Great Britain had departed. They should not forget, that .if they were weak enough to commit such an act of political suicide, all other countries would f ee l and act upon its influence. T hey knew that all other coun tries had formed their finances upon our system.—France had a Sinking Fund larger in proportion to .her debt than ours ; and in America the Sinking Fund was so large, that the ex tinction of the public debt would be accomplished in twenty years. But he did not fear the rivalship of these countries when he considered the natural resources and energies of our own ; and particularly if they were supported upon the true basis of public security and strict public faith. Never was a night so important to the character and interests of the coun try as the present. Upon the event of the decision to which the House were coming, must depend the great operation which they were upon the ere of negociating. That opera tion must be abandoned if the House should adopt the pro position of the Noble Lord. In that case it must be abandon ed ; and never, he believed, with a prospect of returning.— He felt sure that the House would act upon the principles which guided the last Parliament, and support the Govern.. ment in the important measure which they now contempla ted. • Lord ALTHORPE replied.—He wished the House to re collect that the question was, not whether the Sinking Fund should he taken away, but whether the House were satisfied with the amount of reductions which the - Government pro posed. He wished Hon. Members who intended to oppose his proposition, to reflect that when they who had consti tuents shonid return to them, they must tell them the they had voted f o r th e measures of the Noble Marquis , opposite.—' (Hear !) Strangers sv,re then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided. For the motion Against it Majority -103 When the gallery was opened, Mr. GOIII.BURN rigs addressing the House ' in moving f o r leave to bring in a Bill f or regu l at i ng the Importation of Arms and Gunpowder into Ireland, and for indemnifying alt persons who had seized anus and gnnpowder since the Ist of November, 1831. After a few words, which were inaudible in the gallery, from Sir .1. NEss PORT, leave was granted. ' . • . Mr. GOULBUItN gave notice of a motion, for to•morrow, for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the population of Ireland. SALT TAX. Mr. CALCRAFT gave notice, that on Thursday, the 28th of February, he should more fur the repeal of the Salt Tax. . Mr. HUME moved for Returns of the names of all General Officers receiving other allowances than the regular kiln) , pay of their rank, with the amount of such allowances ;—also for returns of the old and new purchases of Commissions, speci fYing the difference of value for each - rank, and copies of the authority for altering the sties of the purchase money ;—also for the returns of the nUmbers of Officers of every descrip tion in the Army who have retired on full or half-hay;—also for returns of CoMmissions purchased in the -Royal Marines, together with Promotions, from March 1820 to March 1822;-- also fur returns of the names of all places where Barracks are kept up, and the ()umbers of Officers and Men in each, specifying whether Infantry or Cavalry. The motions were agreed to. Mr. HUME then asked the Noble Lord what was to be done to-morrow in t he Committee of Supply? Sir G. OSBORNE said his intention was to begin with the wear and tear. On the motion of Mr. Gouutuant, an abstract of the re turn of the population of Ireland was ordered to.be laid be fore the House.—Adjourned at HALF-PAW ELEW;N. COMMO . N - COUNCIL. A Court of Common Council was yesterday held at Guildhall. • A Resolution was passed unanimously, ordering the Cham berlain to pay 3001. to Mr. Wontner, the City Marshal, in ad dition to the 1001. which he had before received, to indemnify. him for the expences he had incurred in consequence of his late severe accident, and as a testimony of the sympathy of the Court. Upon the motion of Mr. Savage, it was resolved, that the name of Thomas Ay res , E sq ., be struck out of every Com mittee, Commission, and Appointment in that Court ; and that he be not again eligible to any of its Committees, in conse quence of having received money from an• individual to use • his influence in procuring him an an appointment, under the. Corporation. • Mr. ETCKE had a charge of a very grave nature, as affecting the privileges of the Corporation, to bring forward againSt .a. collector of King's taxes, who had held out threats of using the• power vested in him by the Commissioners, unless the indivi dual to whom they were so addressed voted in a particular way, in a certain election. The consideration of his conduct Waior dcred to be referred to/the Committee of General Purposes ; as was also- that of a petition from the London Orphan Society, praying for a subscription in aid of their fundi. The Court then proceeded to consider the report of the Bridge house Committee, recommending an application to Parliament for an Act to repeal so much of an Act of 29 Geo. IL, respect ing London-bridge, as i'elates to the water-works ; which was agreed to, and ordered to be presented in the usual manner. The Court also agreed to petition Parliament for power to raise monies effectualh to repair Blackfriars-bridge. At. three o'clock Mr. FAVELL announced that Mr. Hume was in attendance. Mr. flume was then conducted in by Mr..Favell and Mr. Eicke ; and after taking the oaths, .he received the freedom of the City in a gold box from the Chamberlain with the usual ce remony; upon which he returned thanks in a speech of some length, in which he stated the principles by which his public conduct was guided. BIRTHS. On Wednesday last, in Brunswick-square, the Lady of B. P. Witts, Esq. of a daughter. •On the 19th inst. the Lady of J. W. Bacon, Esq. of Fryen House, of a daughter, • • Yesterday morning, at 31, Howland-street, Fitzroy-square 3, Mrs. Hughes, of a daughter. MARRIED. Yesterday, by special licence, at the residence of the Dow ager Lady Ford, in Queen Anne-street, Colonel Chichester, of Arlington, Devonshire, to Sophia Catherine, third daughter-of the late and sister to the present Sir Francis Ford, Bart. and niece to the late Lord Viscount Anson. • Yesterday, at St. Andrew's church, Holborn, J. A. •Droop,, Esq. of Stamford-hill, to Mary, eldest daughter of Henry Rich.. mond, Esq., of John-street, Bedford-row. DIED. On the 11th instant, at his house Caroline-street, Bedford." square, Arthur William Devis, Esq. in his 60th year, artist. At Drogheda, Ireland, Lieut. Guy. Ile had recently Los% his wife, and it appeared he died of grief for tin loss, refusiug all sustenance for twenty-one days previously to his death. Printed and Published, for the PILOPRIETORS,. at the Stit - - OrricE, 112, Strand, by J. B. CARSTAIRS.