The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

bwoe fsets uld' icPl4/1a- , of C erd tun ctl o3 „Iling , of the ,iarno 9 an,- rt four 0 and % 11. lie CO 1 1,6 es. w as 01 r anent nu that the law . 301 1 at great C° urt tly bee n isary on WOOl certaill )N , • of P ea' rsk. A nd , urnme"" fl ea bY fi ned °f r em' r: of euu whic h su bjec Do. „yr ,)or 0 9 0 uch ° n ece''., s l lit ho.-g to ough t eri, coldtu' ti in to c olor t o ° o fi ro, thel 'Jen('tcrtalnc ,1r , cu „,, T4, o a ale F" t c ° )°11 y ba I s, 313 d ,t ibre lcl h e der ) c°, ll 6oo ite Y " Q , i( NTS t te d ,ropt ilsoi V. _oral ed v.- Hurd sv A 0 1 t ba. t r ) g tbt it , felt p ,,th in r : s are pe e egr a , v t). oe, ovl t he --aiflgt p ipe )t D thel hi" t by e beset to it whie b „ o ot tu fact— t o et s Y • h 0 ,o (O le it rend e l s --• ; posse: o f digice° .9P •li 4 °I tither • m anufactures or capital, yet possessed a popu lationequal to th a t o f countries which possessed both. I)__enrractetnent remedies w ere t o b e f oun d i n o th e r re s• The only ground upon which he had to It wa s at a heir Lo r d s hi ps ' assent to this measure was. t h at offthse an important and indi s p e n sa ble palliative evils existing in that country. Before ke stat e d to their Lordships what the Bill was, ho would state to them what it was not. The present Dill was Zoznata Bill carferring a genera l, i n di sc riminate, and per nent right to outdoor relief in Ireland. If such were the to Propose case he should be the last person in the House xnea7opose to their Lordships the adoption of the +l , tire, because he believed that a measure of that nature would be fatal to the property, and, above 14 1 11, to the c h aracter of the people of that co untry.— er ' he ar.) The immediate effect of such a measure Would be t o di m i nish the' number and amount of the p ro ducers,' already too small, and to increase the num er and amount of the consumers, already too large, and 3 , t w ould tend a l so to d estroy t h e re l a tions which exist !, the e the country between landlord and tenant, an d b r i ng : a n c ountry into suc h a s t a t e th a t no thing but evil would 'ac• To m ee t t h e ev il s a tt en dant upon such a me asure it wo u ld b e necessary to h ave a po w er to compel e t artie s to produce, as the poor would by the operation diminished a measure be otherwise left to share a Thshed produce. Such would, in his opinion, he the inevitablezaos result of such a measure, and he was, therefore, whip t e d e eei , d edlY averse to the petition, the prayer of Lisa just been read to the house, the effect of etch lreland waoul still d be greater to throw burden uponthan they the landlor l) alrea ds of _ r Were • wa compelled to L ear . The object of that petition 8 the most prep os t e rous that had ever been sub -14-utect to the consideration of their Lordsh i p s . but if their Lordshs would act wisely, they w ould con alder th at Divine law which controlled and regulated all affairs, The dict um o f the pious French author was— it - *Timber that it is man that proposes, that Olin God that disposes." If their Lord - es neglected that Providence which governed the ,ours e of society, they wou ld certainly repent their 4 !gislati on, and reeret the evils inflicted by their deci 111°n, evils irreparable. He would , therefore , state his pro ceeding opinion of the p rese nt measure boldly ; but, before to that he would allude to one observation. It Might be said, if he entertained so great jealousy, and 10 great mistrust of that kind of relief which was called b haa T an oyrseterm of out-door relief, which many were anxious to yeg enacted, if he thought it a principle which was so us, so calculated to divert from industry, and to increaseaeptleter which o n rely in a q poverty, vv asked et erte' ,so mischievously adapted to the Irish was unhappily unhappily marked for 'a great charity,—if he saw all that evil, It r i !u n legihl fiee d could degree propose as it w as adopted, adopting p the measure proposed by the Government. It was true that the principle of out door relief liet:was surrounded by evils. B u t their Lordshipsin- legislating for any evil tmusts habits a a' a a y n s d l 7tosk system, to th r e previous o de character of the nation, No Nobl e L or d h earing him but rto mustprovide toa t r b e e m ed con .y elusion that in order telprovide, a remedy which should ffect the good o f I re l and for the future, they must it c ontemplate a great an d permanent change in the pur suits to direct habits o f soc i ety.—(Cries of n Hear, bear.") ftr 0 direct acti on , to regulate it, to make it safe and cu °EI?, must be th e o bj ect o f t h e i r L or d s hi p ' s H ouse . L'lute districts must be affected in that change—dis ri.e s ts . that had hitherto beets only subjected to the spade te submitt e d to the plough, and whole croe ds of arsonsb dependin g on the accidents of nature for their subsistence, and losing that if nature failed, must be V__ 4 i n t ged. Nor w as i t on l y t h e l ower c lasses that too be subjected to the change; the proprietors must submit to the change.—(ldear, hear.) The present state of things must give way to a more •unteroved The system, but he denied that the legis l a tion or ,„ __ s anded property of Ireland were amenab le for the ent calamity which prevailed in that country. For pot endeavo ure d to prevent the growth of the the legislature of the country and the people It old h an attempt. have made a just outcry against such the as O nly, therefore, by stimulating the landlords and eypeasants of Ireland to increased exertions that these ... 11s could be remedied. It would be idle to attempt to -At e ; ❑ what ti me t h e great changes which were desired could be e ff ected ; but he thought that during the time f eoi the t rans i tion it was incumbent upon t h em t o p r ovide for the diso r d ers wh i ch m i g ht occur during that time ; a fo-‘`- arri°° g the most prominent of these was to provide wh ere who w ou ld b e t h rown out of employment. Now, re were these persons to find assistance and support? mho could be found to devise a measure calculated to m eet all the contingencies consequent upon these casual, but c ertain distu r b ances ? But unless the Parliament d thewh Govern ment o f t h e coun try took some steps, e If the p oor people were expose d t o a ll the horrors 1n fa mine, they wou ld b e accused of negligence, or erence, and even w i t h inhumanity. Their Lordship s had seen great calamities i n I re l an d wring the course of the present year, and they had seen u .'_calamities m e t by a d egree o f lib e rality which, he thatw Id 2 say, did h onour to human nature. H e wou ld say n h l e e h wa s t h e these ca l am i t i es had called forth t h at sym p a thy did not in qu i re w h et h er jewel which s a t in the head of adversity. I the object of charity was Cel liEnglish, C at h o li c or P rotestan t, a S axo n or a • e - r I nfluenced by such considerations, he was happy to f . a T • i tnist thos e v il e and miserable distractions was fast ✓o n t . 7. away, in despite of the wicked and base endea efts. "f some,—(Hear, hear.) That sympathy had co sod th e A t l ant i c, an d h a d ca ll e d f ort h, p ar tly f rom la unity of sentiment, and partly from a community Of in stitution, an amount of exi rtion which had produced, he believed, millions upon millions of dollars which, ex- Pendel in food, he had only yesterday been informed, nad had a remarkable effect, in all the ports of Ireland, in reducing the price of food, and relieving the distress Which was so dreadfully prevalent. Among those Who had exerted themselves the most—those Who had been pre-eminent—who had been ever distingiliahed for their exertions in the cause of charity, and tor the numerous instances of benevolence which they had performed—were the Quakers. -,- (Cheers.) Now, no one, even those who were most remarkable for the force and power of their intellect, have ever been able to suggest any provisional remedy for this trouble during the state of transition, which did not embrace some system of out-door relief. He trusted that their Lord ships had made themselves acquainted with the provi sions of the Bill; and the principle which it was now his duty to propose was, that under certain modified provisions, out-door relief would be administered to the able bodied poor. By the first clause of that Bill (which Ilia Lordship read), it was decreed that it was advisable that in certain cases of destitution relief should be granted to the able-bodied poor. By the second clause it was decreed that, although these cases should receive instant re lief, yet it was subject to the discretion of the Poor law Commissioners to regulate this relief. It might be granted only for a period of two months, but if sufficient cause be shown then that further relief, the amount of Whi ch was to be defined by the Poor-law Commissioners might be granted. It was proposed that out-door relief ,should only be administered when the poor - h ouse would °a full, and this he considered would operate as a check against any considerable abuse. It was also provided, that with respect to all those whose yearly rent was ' 4ll "e 41., th e ra t e s h ou ld b e equ ally divided between the landlord and the tenant. There was another consider Itt ion also, which, in addition to the great calamity which 1 1" existed in I re l a nd, induced him to assent to this me asure, whi c h was th e ge neral, but greatly misrepre cze nt ed, though no t un n a t ura l, complaint made in that e'rentrY resp ec ti ng th e a b sen t ees . He thought, however, were other places in this empire where absenteeism existed to as grea t an extent as i n man y p ar t s of Ire lu• Anoth er po i nt i n t hi s Bill was t h at re li ev i ng o ffi cers were aointed to relieve cases of great destitution ; b ut his superintendence would be under the surveillan ce of the guardians, and he did 9. 0 t apprehend that any mismanaement would result from this clause. Now this clause g restrained the giving of relief to any one possessed of more than a quarter of a*o acre of land. The 11th clause made the expenses after a certain rate per pound chargeable on the union at large, and this clause he apprehended would effect much good, as ho thought it would stimulate employ raent, and might operate to prevent the injury towards towns where the poor crowded in to procure employ ment. The clause for facilitating emigration by enabling the guardians to levy one-third of the expense off the union at large would, he considered, have a most bene ficial effect. The Noble Marquis after referring to some other clauses, said that there were other measures to go along with this .Bill, and among them was a vagrant Act. Their Lordships would see that it would be necessary to accompany it with such measures as would tend to improve the condition of the country. Besides this Bill there was a measure for the cultivation of waste lands, and the Landed Property Bill, from both of which he anticipated the best results. There were other measures in addition, which, though of a subordinate, were not of an immaterial nature. There was a measure for the erection of piers, the im provement of the fisheries, and the establishment of the curing stations; and he was happy to say, with regard to these latter, that since their establishment, two months ago, they had paid all expenses, and acted as a great stimulus to the industrial exertion. Besides these, it was proposed to advance a sum of 620,0001. to stimulate th e enterprise of the country, by advances to railways. It was to these measures, and to the improvements which they would effect, that their Lordships Must look as a palliation for the evils of reland, and for the foundation of that permanent good which they all desired for that countr y . Ile was painfully reminded of the contrast which existed Between that scene of imperial splendour by which they w ere surrounded, and the depths of that abyss of misery for which they were sailed upon to adopt some measures ( IPermanent relief. All that he prayed of their Lord ships was, that they would loo k with a clear and undaz tlu eye from those splendid heights at the prospects of want the and destitution which pervaded a g reat p ortion of , People for whom they were called on t o le g islate. No could doubt the existence of that distress, and to l4ol existin it was the solemn duty o f their Lordshi p s provide a g ainst. The Noble Marquis resumed his se at amid l ou d a ppl ause . Lord CLANC A ItiTY sa id that he thought that the question was one which required the greatest considers tiihun• He felt great regret in rising to move t he amend ment ent of which he had g iven notice. Millions of m one y been squandered by the Labour - rate Act, and that was at th e very time when it was necessary that all the ene rg i es of the country should have been directed t o the cul tivation of th e l an d. This was one of the e v i ls which " l ilt' its origin i n ; h asty an d i nc onsiderate legislation. e did not ever consider that the principle of the Bill "s good. Th e f i rst sect i on gave an o ption of relief in c„),roout of th e wor k house, to a ll save the able-bodied. • w this clause would cause the workhouse to be re v(t)led a s a pr i son—as a place of punis h men t, by those En misfortune had reduced to the necessity of seeks lug aid, Thisthat should not be the ease ; he considered suis tsewho received out-door relief would be_ bette!. „ e to accept the mi n i mum of relief sooner than go 01; 1' '° workhouse. With regard to the I Ith section of 49 A " , it entirely did away with the charge upon 119 TER StIN, LONDON, FRIDAY* EVENING,APRIL so, 1847. electoral divisions, and in general its effects were likely to act unjustly and unequally upon the districts it was intended to benefit. Under the 15th section, a very se rious inconvenience would arise to the clergy. Und - er this Act it was to be expected that the rates would very [Adelably increase, and as the landlords under the present system were unable to get their rents or pay their rates to the clergy in lull, how was it to be expected that they could pay in full when the demands upon them were increased ? The promoters of this Bill also seemed to anticipate a compact between the elected guardians and the ex-officio guardians, and therefore they had taken care that their numbers should not be otherwise than equal, in order, probably, that they might fight it out upn fair terms. Had due attention been paid to those reports, which were accessible to Government and to Parliament, es pecially a report presented to that House in 1830, with reference to the state of the poorer classes of Ireland ; he thought that it would have enabled the Government to bring forward a measure better calculated to improve the social end moral condition of the peasantry of Ire land. Certainly the price of provisions from abroad had been very much increased, and it appeared to him that it was very baroarous to debar the poor Irish from the only resource which they possessed. It England acted by Ireland as she would be acted by, they would have a sound poor law, and he should, therefore, conclude by moving that the Bill be read a second time this day six months. On the amendment being put, The Earl of St. GERMANS said, that the observa tions of his Noble Friend, who had just sat down, ap peared to him to have been addressed chiefly to the first part of the Bill; and in saying that he was cautious how he acce,led to the principle of giving out door relief, he could not but acknowledge that some such provision was absolutely necessary. But there was a clause which commanded his approval, and that was that which provided for the destitute, though they were in health, for if it were to be denied, how was the condition of the beggar to be improved? It appeared, however, that this relief was only to be administered by the boards of guardians, under the direction of the Poor-law Com missioners, for a certain restricted period. To this he was quite ready to assent, but he was by no means pre pared to give that assent without reference to the work house list. It was true that, by the report of the Commis sioners, it appeared that they were unfavourable to the workhouses in Ireland; but by the passages which he read to the House, it would seem that there was at least an opportunity of granting the relief required by the able-bodied but destitute poor. This relief would have the effect of inducing the farmers and landowners of Ireland to find a profitable employment for the poor. Ever since 1835, this had been more and more evident, and by, the evidence of Mr. Griffiths, it was seen that there were now more than .five millions of acres which required reclamation, and on which the whole of the poor might be profitably engaged, and thus they might be lifted from their present state of degra dation to one of comparative comfort and plenty. But this could only be effected by their passing through a state of transition which must of necessity be acco:n rianied by the endurance of severe . distrs ss, and he re joiced that the Measure of t he Noble Marquis provided for an evil which, however great, was, nevertheless, inevitable. He could assure their Lordships that the only requisite to render this measure effective was a provision for the employme n t of the p eo p le. That this was the case, was evident from the report of Capt. Chads, of the Excellent, who had been engaged to pass through certain districts, by the Government, and his report stated that, in all his progress as far as Lough Swill'', he universally found that the people did not crave for food, but for employment by which they might obtain the me ans of subsistence. The period of 1839 was one o f great excitement and distress. The former had at any rate passed away, .but the principle still remained f o r re p ressin g the evils which were then complained of. The whole expense of the poor-law in Ireland, during the year 1846, was 246,0001.; in 1845 it was 298.000/., and the whole of the money collected was 426,116/. Now, the real amount of the property which was assessed in Ireland was 16,000,000/. but it was generally taken at about twenty per cent. less, and was therefore really estimated at 13,200,0001., and taking it at this amount, the rate would be about sevenpenee halfpenny in the pound, while, in effect, the real amount collected, was only sixpence farthing. If they turned to the returns of 1839, and there had been none made since, they would find that the sum obtained by voluntary contributions, and from the counties, for the infirmaries, was 25,557/. That for dispensaries, was, by voluntry contributions, 34,000/., with about 34,000/. obtained from the counties ; there was then, a further sum from both these sources, of 129,000/.; all these, and other contributions together, made up 127,0001. Now, taking all these sums together they would find that the whole of the rating of the land was not more than tenpence halfpenny. Between that sum and unlimited extravagance there was a very wide, and as he considered it sufficient, margin. There was evidently no disposition whatever to extravagance in Ireland, and there was, therefore, no necessity whatever for the interference of the board of guardians, and quite sure was he that there was no necessity whatever for doing away with the workhouse test, but that it would be far better to leave the party of out-door relief to them without the proposed restriction. i It was com plained that the workhouses were quite insufficient for the purpose. There are now workhouses in Ireland with accommodation for 112,060 or 115.000 persons, and in extraordinary times this might be insufficient, but it should be recollected that in the report o Mr. Nichol it was expressly recommended that they should be both enlarged and improved.—(llear, hear.) He had already said that he believed the workhouse test was necessary to the working of the Poor-law, and he was willing to believe that the Poor law commissioners would do away with it. He must regret the practice of the Noble L- rd near him, of remarking upon speeches made in another place in the absence of those who made' them, and when there was no opportunity of reply. Ile said this in the very best spirit and with no wish to 'fiend, The provisions of the Bill which ad mitted ex officio guardians to the board seemed objectionable, and the more so that the Bill was for Ireland ; because there the unions were sometimes very large, end the justices very numerous; indeed so numerous as to out-number the regularly elected guardians. But rather than stand out against the whole Bill he would consent to such a compromise as would authorise the election of a number of guardians proportionate to the numbers of ex officio guardians. There were some other amendments which he wished to introduce into the Bill, and of which he might then give notice. He thought the clause with regard to out-door relief was bad, as leaving nothing to the discretion of the guardians. It positively restricted them from giving out-door relief at all, such was the effect of it, and he would propose to leave it out. The Bill would then leave the relief to the discretion of the guardians them selves. He would conclude with expressing his hope that their Lordships would accede to this measure, as connected with other measures for the good of the people of Ireland, and the cultivation of the country. But if they were to emasculate the Bill by amendments, he hoped they would rather reject the Bill altogether on the principle. Lord MONT EAGLE was surprised at what had fallen from the Noble Earl that night; but he was most of all surprised that the Noble Earl should come to that House—and against the speech of the Right Rev. Arch bishop of Dublin, and in favour of his own views—should quote the report made by the Commission of which that Right Rev. Prelate was at the head. No document more severely denounced the principle of out-door relief. But there was a document later and more recent than that. Yet the Noble Earl had not alluded to that; he meant the report from a Committee of their own House. He begged to ask the Noble Earl whether that document did did not bear the interpretation which he gave to it. lie would wait for an answer. The Earl of St. GERMANS said he was most un willing to take up the time of their Lordships, but he ad mitted the interpretation given to the document by the Noble Lord—a document drawn up by that, Noble Lord himself, in the presence of very few Peers, himself (Earl of St. Germans) being the only. English Peer present. Lord MONTEAGLE granted the document was drawn up in presence of several of the Peers now in the House ; and, to take the Noble Earl's own terms, in the presence of the representative Peer of England.—(Laughter.) That document expressed the opinions and the decision of that Committee, the Noble Earl himself having been a member of it. But to-night the Noble Earl had pursued an entirely dif ferent course of argument. But, said the Noble Earl, an emergency had come since that report had been drawn up. The assumption was good for a merely tem porary measure, but tor a measure which was to be incorporated into the laws of the country the arguments of the Noble Earl entirely failed. There was not one shadow of authorky for maintaining that view which was taken by Noble Lords opposite. They were placed in a peculiar position at present. They had to deal with a Parliament of very short duration, but were it otherwise, and that they were at the com mencement of the session, ho would be able to produce tire authority of experience. He confessed it would have relieved his mind from considerabl e anxiety if his Noble Friend could have proved to the House and the public, with proofs, that experience would demonstrate its effi cacy. A Noble Lord had made some admissions. He said that the workhouse system was necessary to the working out of this measure.—(hear, hear.) But was there any such workhouse system in Ireland as would be equal to do so. Noble Lords were not aware of what the unions in Ireland were. There were only 130 workhouses, or unions, in Ireland, while there were upwards of 600 unions in England. The very circumstance of the few workhouses in Ireland pre cluded the posssibility of the system working. They were, therefore, handed over to deal with difficulties which might, herhaps, be surmounted ; but then there were other difficulties which were insurmountable. How was this Bill to be carried into effect ? One single re lieving officer was all that was to be afforded to each union. Now, ho would ask any Noble Lord, wh o was acquainted, however slightly,, with Ireland, could lie for a moment, suppose such an arrangement could work efficiently. Besides the powers that were vested in the guardians would render the working of this measure impracticable. He was told that these were all imaginary causes of terror. He would show that such was not the case . If th e y were in tranquil ey w L e y i then mi gb might times e s when um u the hope - t la t w be wlts times—if first 'introd th u d re lief might be fairly administered. There were upwards of 50,000 children in those wor kh o uses whom you would by removal deprive of the a d van t age o f t h e wor khouse Noe itL o r w d o u w l d h o be n a t r e o c d h u m e p e id an e h d e b ß y i l 1 measures schools, which were amongst th e b es t i n t h e cou ntry. The e m for the suppression of mendicity,they but could 'not root out of the hearts of the Irish people the principle which led t o rnendicity ' which was with them a moral and reli g i ous principle. He was sorry that his Noble Friend opposite had not given them a more satisfactory statement. Looking at another • post which had been referred to, he regarded with t g h r i e s a t e(ai n gratification tryfer th e t he re e f f fo e r f t s r t e h l e a n t a b d e t b eheen must t e in say tty l a c ru r i e of they w o t u h l e d 'poor, and for the a dministration of that relief, than, find_ thatif they th e r r e e fc w rr e e s d ra to o t r h e e eh an ar n i a ty ls of fe r lre ti l considering its circumstances. in any city in Europe. If this measure would have the effect of infusing the condition of the country , develo p in g its p h y sical capa bilities, and stimulating its industrial resources, he thought the money-charge incurred by it, would be a very subordinate consideration ; but ho did not think that there could be a greater fallacy than to suppose that a better system of agriculture could he introduced by it, or that increased employment would be one of its con sequences. What the Irish people wanted was money and stimulants, but how, he would ask, were these to be sup plied by the present Bill? He maintained that it would have the very contrary effect, and not only diminish the means, but take away all motives to exertion from the people of Ireland. He thought the clause which distributed the supplies of rating over 2s. 6d., out of the union, was one which would do the towns mere harm than good, as it would cause a greater influx of the paupers into the towns. There was no greater delusion than that which attributed to this measure the cessation of Irish emigra tion into England. lie thought it unwise and illogical to anticipate this effect. If it raised the rate of wages, it might lessen the emigration into this country. but it it lowered the rate of wages no such result would follow. Now, that it would have the effect of lowering the rate of wages, and consequently increase emigration, he would appeal to the working of the English poor-law, and ask them if the administration of out-door relief had not the effect of lowering the rate of wages in this country. He was supported in this view by the autho rity of Mr. Musgrave and others, who were of the opinion that a compulsory system of outdoor relief in Ireland would have the effect of increasing the importa tion of Irish paupers into this country. The objection which he felt to the measure was not to the amount which they proposed to levy upon the landlords, but to the method in which they proposed to expend the fund collected.—(Hear, hear.) At various times the Government had promised to encourage an agricultural education. If that had been done when they introduced the national system of edu cation in Ireland, if they had instituted schools for agri culture, they would never have witnessed the dreadful scenes which were now daily occuring in that country. He would merely say, in conclusion, that the measure was intended to be perpetual, and that its advocates based their advocacy of it upon arguments which only sprung from a temporary emergency. The Earl ST. GERMANS said that the Noble Lord had misinterpreted his arguments in a great many particulars. The Marquis of CLANRICARDE supported the Bill, and entered at some length into a refutation of the arguments of the Earl of Clancarty and Lord Mont eagle, respecting the system of out-door relief. Ile would ask if the people of Ireland were in that un happy state in which they were represented to be, would it not be better to afford them some relief, than allow them to remain in their present state? And, after all, such a measure as that proposed was one which was only a matter of justice to Ireland, as it would stimulate industry, and develope the industrial resources of the country.—(Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend who had moved the amendment had argued that the poor law guardians would be unable to carry out the law as it was intended to be. He knew that laws were not merely rolls of parchment, and that some allowance must he made for the state of society in Ireland. In certain classes of society a revolution had been effected in their habits, and it only remained for them to encourage the change which had begun. If the farmers would not, or did not, see their own interests clearly, they, above all men, would be ruined by the operation of this law and the changed state of society it would induce. If the gentry, also, did not lend their countenances to the measure, and see that it was pro perly carried out, they also would go against their own interests and be ruined. The working of the law de pended upon themselves ; and, if they would not see that it was properly carried out, how were they to legis late for such a state of society ? He did not, however, believe that such would be the case, and he thought that the people would have a greater regard for their own interest and welfare and that of the country, than to see that this law was administered improperly and ineffi ciently. The magistracy and gentlemen generally were alive to the actual necessity of taking active steps for the proper administration of the law. They knew well that if they did not, the paupers of the country, would so far increase in numbers, that they would eventually be too strong for them. He be lieved that eventually this measure would confer a great and lasting benefit upon the people of Ireland. The Archbishop of DUBLIN said, that reference had been made to a speech of his upon a former occasion, in which he said that he did not give high wages. By that expression he did not iuten4 to convey that be gave lower wages than the man could obtain anywhere else. He gave his labourer such wages as should induce him to work, and would not have a tendency to discourage him from labour. He had acted upon the plan of giving employment, although not actually in need of labourers, in order to save the persons from becoming paupers, or being in distress, until they could obtain employment else Where. Such a course was pursued by tacit agree ment among the landed proprietors, and in fact it was understood, that as far as they could, they should, in time of distress, keep the labourers of their districts em ployed. No doubt they effected a saving in the end by such a course, by hindering the men from becoming paupers. That acted very well, but as soon as the fact became evident to the people, the whole charm was broken, and numbers thronged to the spot, and thus threw upon the proprietors a burden more than they could bear. While he was upon his legs, he would take that opportunity of expressing his deep sympathy for the embarrassing position in which her Majesty's advisers were at present placed. The circumstances under which they acted were difficult and troublesome, hut he was glad to see, that not only in this country but even in others, there was a disposition to relieve the suffering people of Ireland as much as possible. Ile hail received large quantities of corn-meal from Philadelphia and Canada, for the use of the Irish. He took that opportunity of stating these facts, and ac knowledging them in public. He entirely concurred in the observations of the Noble Marquis, who opened the debate, that it was a very perilous experiment to hold out to the people of any country, more especially those of Ireland, the prospect of a certain remedy, by law, for all destitution. He would no longer detain their Lordships by any further observations ; and, in conclu sion, he would uree upon the Legislature the gravest consideration before passing such a measure as the pre sent one into a permanent law. Lord STANLEY perfectly concurred in the argu ments which had just fallen from the Most Reverend Prelate, who had just sat down, to a certain extent, but he believed that this measure was fraught with the most serious dangers. He was not surprised that the remarks of the Noble Marquis, who brought forward this mea sure, had been somewhat misunderstood. It was not to be denied that this was an emergency of a most trying character, an emergency which, though it was only in appearance, of a temporary nature—temporary, he trusted, it would be—but yet it was evidently fraught with consequences which must last, to say the least of it, through a series of years ; and he only regretted that their feelings of commisseration had been excited, perhaps, in too great a degree. There had been a great breaking up of old feelings, old associations, old practices, and old principles ; and it was, therefore, above all necessary that they should not suffer their feelings to be too much excited, but that they should come to it with a sober judgment, and a cool discretion. He was perfectly aware, that at the present moment the Government had facilities for. legislating which had never been enjoyed before; but, as the most Reverend Prelate had justly stated, they must take care that they took no step which they might be obliged to retrace. It appeared to him that the Noble Lord on the cross benches (the Earl of St. Germans) had taken a most inadequate view of the question, and great as he conceived the difficulty to be, and great as f h r e o m t r t u h s e t e p d u b t l h i i a ! t f u i n t d s w d o u u r l i d n g b t o h i o s n t e l y m p t e o m ra p r o y r d a r i s y t , r e he s e , and he trusted that it would be only temporary, he yet would be the m i sc hi e f f rom gran ti ng an un li m i te d re li e f thought that the pecuniary portion was the least that beset the subject, the course of which was so beset by great perils. If that had been the only principle involved, the question would have had n• greater opponent thim himself. The Noble Earl had talked of ild. in the pound, but he knew in one instance where ' there was a rate made for twelve ; months, of seven shillings in the pound, and in another of a rate of twenty shillings in the pound. It its present shape, the Bill was calculated rather to impede the power of giving out-door relief than to facilitate it. When his Noble Friend had stated that the workhouses were quite insufficient for the accommodation of those who required relief, he did not recollect that there was already an Act in existence which provided a power for increasing the number and enlarging the accommodation in the work houses. W hen he talked of there being a space of eight hundred square miles on which this experiment was to be tried, and when he talked of the extent of the unions, and he himself was ready to acknowledge that au union that was so extensive that some portions of it were forty eight miles from the workhouse, but in noticing this he was bound to observe that if this measure were to be carried oat, they must provide a sufficient accommo dation for the poor, the provisions of this Act gave the opportunity of giving a limited relief for a period of two months. But this practically implied that the workhouse test was to be applied. And if it were to be applied, they must take adequate means of accommodation, and the whole of the property of Ire land ought to be rated for the relief of the poor—not only the property of the landlord, but of the tenant also; and he would never be a party to unduly overweighing the landlords of Ireland. Ile was not prepared to deny that property had its duties ; but if it had its duties it had also its rights, and if the rights were not allowed, they they could not expect that it should fulfil its duties ; and in order to obtain the one they must allow the other. It was perfectly evident that if this measure were to be effected—and he sincerely trusted that the Go vernment would reconsider i• - s opinions—they must en deavour to reduce the size and increase the number of its unions. The unions in the country were as much too large as those of the districts were too small. At the present time the landlords absolutely paid two-thirds of the rates, and left the tenant to pay the other. In fact it had been represented that the landlords of Ireland possessed unlimited power over their tenants, but the truth was that the tenants possessed a far greater power over the landlords than the landlords did over the tenants. If this measure were to be rendered effectual, the taxation must be rendered commensurate with the property of the country.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis had conceived that it was necessary to bring the power of the Poor-law Commissioners to bear on the collection of the rates, but he (Lord Stanley) did not conceive that the guardians had ever been guilty of imprudence in the fulfilment of their duties. He asked how they could leave th© rates of the country to a body of farmers, whose holdings, 20 or 30 of them, might be included in a g or d lev E y n o g ig lish tw f •o ar : upon the landlord ? It was said by the Noble m thirds•—auchora btaihryeeo-ffomuretnh,swiotfh tthhee power of levying two thirds or three-fourths of the rates Marquis, in his opening statement, that the number of' small holdings must ho diminished. One remark fell from him in regard to another means of remedy, that the plough must be substituted fur , the spade ; but h e did not concur w ith his Noble 1 riend near him in thinking that the effect of that improve ment would be to diminish the demand for labour. The effect of introducing science into agriculture would be to increase the necessity of increased labour and employ ment. But there was a demand directly made upon the landlords, with a view to remedy the evils of Ireland. It had been said that they m us t increase the size of their farms, the number of their servants, and the amount of their wages. That looked very well in theory, but how did it succeed in the hands of the Government when they attempted their improvements upon the made' farm.—(Laughter.) - Why, f o r fourteen years her Ma jesty's Ministers had u se d t h e i r utmos t power, and had tailed to remove one ten an t. I n f ac t, they were all be come tenants at will, no t pay i ng one penny of rent ; and the most ludicrous p art o f t h e w h o l e was that sshen some, who had resigned their lands, were a ppoints d as care takers ; they became care-takers in a peculiar sense of the word, and refused to leave the land or pay one farthing of remuneration. Such was the re sult. What then had the Government been able to do for their property? He admitted that the number of small holdings ought to be diminished. Bat how T . ' S that to be done? They must diminish the motives which induced them to cling to these holdings. But here the arguments of the Noble Marquis had failed; for while he hoped that so and so would be the concomitants of the Bill, he forgot to introduce to the attention of their Lordships, those mea ns b y w hi c h t h e effects he antici ticipated were to be produced. There was once a clause in that Bill w hi c h p er mitted the pro vision of relief fo r a man i n t h e occupation of land. That fortunately was struck out, and that would have the effect of reducing the number of small hold ings. But yet a man with eight or nine acres of land could manage to subsist himself unless he had what they called a heavy family. Yet there could be no hope that he could employ th e l a b ourer , w ho was necessarily thrown upon the world. A strange notion, however, had been begotten in this country, that it was the duty of the proprietor to give increased employment in the im provement of his estates. Those who said so did n,t understand that those estates were divided out into farms of ten or twelve acres each, and that if he should attempt to lay out his estatea.anew, to straighten the divisions, he would be resisted, aye, even to the death, if one man believed he would lose by that only half a cow's grass. Such a position of the landlords evinced the impression and the expectation to be most Utopian and monstrous. These were the two points which he wished to impress upon their Lordships. They must give the owners of property greater means of managing and improving that property which wa s th e i r interest own—they must make it the of the occupier to keep down the poor-rates, by placing hi m i n a s i m il ar position with the landlord in reference to the payment of those rates. The Noble Earl (St. Germans) gave notice of some amendments which he intended moving in Committee. He (Lord Stanley) concurred in those amendments, and would support them; but he would assure the Government th a t th e i r Lord ships would not go into Committee on thi s Bill w i t h an y disposition but to relieve a most difficult and a most in tricate situation. He hoped most earnestly th a t a ll the benefits which the friends of the measure might antici pate would result from it, and that it would prove ulti mately a great permanent good in Ireland. Earl DESART expressed his satisfaction at the man ner in which her Majesty's Government had introduced the Bill, and felt extremely grateful to the people of England,who had come forward to relieve the destitution of the people of Ireland. Lord BROUGHAM did not think they were in a con ditiou at present to legislate safely upon the question. A temporary measure would be safer than a permanent measure. He thought it would be safer to limit the measure to one year. He thought it might be necessary to hare an enactment at the expiration of that period ' • but he defied their Lordships to repeal the law when once they had passed it. It would be found that two-thirds of the burden would be thrown on the landlords instead of one half. He thought that, great as the responsibility would be of doing nothing, all that responsibility would be a mere jest compared with the risk which the public tranquillity would have to encounter, if they sent over a Bill which threw the whole burden on the occupier. That was his only objection, and throughout the whole course of the debates, the arguments he had heard convinced him that this Bill would be found to be im practicable. The Bill was then read a second time without a division. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that he pro posed that. this Bill should be committed on next Tuesday. Lord MONTEAGLE hoped that when they went into Committee on the Bill, that there would be some statement as to the exact mode in which it was to be administered. After a few words from the Earl of FITZWILLIAM The Bill was ordered to be committed on Tuesday next. The Landed Property Bill was read a second, time, and was crdered to be committed oa Thursday next. Their Lordships then adjourned, at Half-past Twelve o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. April 29. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. (Continued from our Third Edition of last night.) AIr.WILLIAMS seconded the resolutions. He though the question raised one of great national impodance. The Honourable Gentleman had adduced so many facts, that he could not see how the Govern ment could oppose them. Ile wondered, after the high authorities that had in former years declared against the present mode, that it should have been per sisted in to the present day. His Hon. Friend had proved that last year more than seven millions had been intercepted in its progress to the Exchequer, and this evil had been increasing year by year for a long time. In 1841, when the Right lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth came into office, he complained of the state of the finances of the country ; and on that occa sion he( Mr. Williams) called the attention of the House to the labours of a Committee that formerly sat on the ques tion. He also called their attention to the fact, that about fifty millions of taxes in 1806 were collected for 9,790,000/., while in 1845 the collection of 56,460,000!. cost nearly five millions.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.) From this it appeared, that while the collection in the year 1806 was but 41 per cent., in the year 1845 it had risen to si per cent. In the year 1843, though a great reduction had taken place in the Customs duties, there had in 1843 and 1844 been 114 new places created. In the Post-office also in the last four years, there had been no less than 4,063 places created. In 1806, during the administration of Mr. Pitt, the cost of the collection of the revenue, which was under the strictest supervision, did not exceed from two-and-a-half to three per cent, at the most. Reference had been made to various departments, and with respect to one of the departments mentioned it was set down as 360,000!., while the wh o l e amount b roug ht into the Treasury was 120,000/. Si r Henry Parnell, afterwards Lord Congleton, recomm en d e d that the public accounts should be kept on one pl an , and the ability displayed in his re commendations w ere well worthy the attent i on o f th e House. Ile hoped th at the Government wou ld give this important matter th e i r serious cons id erat i on . He was sure they could not render the country more important service than by giving their assent to the motion of his lion, and Learned F r i en d . The motion was th en read. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) said he feared the subject was not a very interesting one, and he should, therefore, be as brief in his observations as the importance of the subject would admit of. He wished at the outset to bear testimony to the experience of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He had the greatest re spect for the gentlemen whose names were appended to the report to which the Han. and Learned Gentleman had referred. But at the same time he could not help stating, that it was found impossible to carry out the recommen dations it contained. Even Lord Congleton admitted that the whole of the recommendations of the Board from whence the.report emanated could not be carried out. Yet great advances had been made during the last few years in improving the mode of keeping the public ac counts; even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ad mitted that great improvements had been made in the Treasury in this respect; and it was only last year, that her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill which he had the honour of passing through its ad vanced stages soon after he came into office, for the consequence of the pressure of other e n ts business,they particularly wished, in purpose of promoting a better mode of keeping account s in certain departments of the Government; but the Go vernment had not been able to carry ou t all th e i m p the state of I re l an d. prov Haying said thus much, he could not allo w a ll t h e state ments of his lion. Friend to pass unnot i ced. If any body would look at the return s to which the H on . Gen tleman had referred , it would be seen that in r es p ec t em of certain departments it was utterly impossible to adopt his plan. Th en again, the appropriations in aid ; these were sums voted by Parliament. It was necessary that the sums thus voted for that purpose should continue to ' be accredited for as they were ; as it would thereby increase the efforts of the officers of t h e d i fferent de partments to realise as much as they possibly c ou ld by the sale of the old stores. The lion. and Learned Member had complained that the House was not aware of the salaries paid to the various clerk s and officers in the different departments of the Government. Ile (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that it would not tend much to facilitate the business of the House if votes were to be taken singly for the amount of the salaries paid to each individual .collector, c l er k , surveyor, or tidewaiter ; bu t every information might be obtained upon th e subject by application a t the offices of the ents . The charges vari ous departm of collection was laid before the House every yea r. Another charge brought forward by the Hon. and Learned Member was, that there was an increase in the charges of collecting the taxes under the heads ef Stamps and Excise, during the last ten years. If the Hon. Member would look to the amount collected in the years ts, which he referr e d, h e would have , see n that in 1836 tne revenue under those heads amounted to about 11,000,000/., while in the year 1846 it amounted to upwards of 17,000,000/. ; it was, there fore, clear, that increased charges of collecting would attend the collection of an increased amount of revenue. The lion. Member for Coventry had also alluded to an i nc rease in the Post-office department ; but surely, when it was considered what an enormous amount of in creased facilities were given to the public by t h at office, it could not be a matter of complaint that the charges under that head had also considerably increased. If the public would have increased facilities, they must, at least, be content to pay an increased char ge f or t h e same. If the Hon. and Learned Member would point out any details in w hich there was any ground of complaint, he would he most happy to devote the best attention that lay in his power to a consideration of the circumstances of such cases. Mr. TIUMvi. was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should object to a general system of accounts of so simple a nature that any child could understand them, which could be carried out by inserting in one the accounts of the various boards or departments of, a simple debtor or creditor account, to be submitted annually to the Parliament. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer did not appear to have improved himself in the least in spite of all the experience which he had had in the business of the House. He most cordially supported the motion of his lion, and Learned Friend. Sir G. CLERK thought the resolution of the Hon. and Learned Member turned upon two points—first, that no sums whatever should be paid away by any p•iblle board which was not first paid into the Exchequer of the country; and then, if any returns or drawbacks were required, such sums should be allowed out of the general Exchequer of the country. Now, to such a re solution he begged entirely to object. The present mode of keeping the accounts of the country, was that recom mended by a Select Committee of the House appointed some years since, and proved as effectual and as accurate as any mode of hook keeping adopted in any of the commercial houses in this country. In Scotland the expenses of the civil Government were, by Act of Parliament, deducted from the sums collected, the net sum, less these expenses of collection, being paid into the Exchequer, and if any other plan were intro- duced, great anomalies would be the result. Why, if the plan of the lion. and Learne:l Gentleman were to be generally adopted, a merchant at the clearance house would require his bills to be psid in cash to his hankers, and,any deduction would have to be returned by him in cash, or by ch , qee, instead of deducted and arranged at the time of the clearance. Enquiries had been instituted, and it was found that no better plan than that adopted in the Ordnance could be adopted. For instance, they sold old stores, and purchased new articles which might be required, out of the funds which they realised. And then it was in the power of every Member of the House to move for returns, showing the receipts and expenditure of each department, so that misappropriation could not take place under such vigi- lant supervision. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that 7,000,000 was intercepted in its way to the Treasury ; but if he would look into the public accounts in detail he would find that vouchers were taken for all the sums paid, and that the whole amount was duly accounted for. Then he could not see what good could result from furnishing in detail the expenditure of every mall custom-house department in the kingdom, or of every small post office, It was. upon these grounds that he could not accede to the poposal of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorchester introduced a Bill for the purpose of sim plying the accounts of the Exchequer, and since that time great -improvements had been made in the mode of keeping the public accounts. The system adopted in France, he believed, had not been so beneficial as the lion. and Learned Gentleman had stated. He trusted that the Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would not hold out to the Honourable Gentle man any hope that he would adopt his recommen dations. Why, he could not carry out the first part of it—that part was particularly objectionable. If it were adopted, every small sum received at the PoSt-office of Ireland, would have to be remitted to this country, before any deductions could be made from it for local expences. He saw no reason for altering the mode of keeping the public accounts ; and, therefore, he could not give his support to the motion. Mr. F. T. BARING admitted the great importance of simplifying the public accounts ; but since the recom mendation of the board, to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred, great improvements had been introduced, and no doubt the Government would avail itself of every opportunity of introducing fresh improvements. It was right, undoubtedly, that all sums for the different de • partments of the Government should be voted by the House ; but they must vote the sums in masses, and not in detail, otherwise they would be wholly unable to do so. Parliament should have the control of the whole expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—but with re spect to appropriation, he might say that it was necessary that each department should have the credit of its own savings, instead of being carried to the gross accounts of the nation—that mall or important local and inciden tal expenses should be deducted from the receipts, in stead of the gross receipts being paid into the Treasury, and every small sum that might be required, voted by the House. For instance, the departments which had articles in their possession which could be sold, should have the power in their hands of selling them at the time when they thought they could make the best bargains, and should have the power of devoting the receipts to something for which they might stand in need, taking care, however, as now, to keep succinct accounts of all • their transactions. By a return, he found that in 1822, 5,688,0001. was expended without passing through the Treasury; but he also found that it had been reduced in 1846, to 4,630,0001.. showing that a considerable re duction had taken place. Sir J. GRAHAM would only occupy the House for a short time while he made the observations which he intended. With respect to the public accounts, he agreel entirely with the Hon. Member for Bolton, that the system of double entry should be employed in all cases in the public service. While in office, on it former occasion, he had been the means of introducing it into many public public departments, and the present Go vernment had introduced it into the army and the Ord nance cleparttnents. The Hon. Member, however, ob •jected that the same system was not introducrd into the dome-office, but it should be borne in mind that that was scarcely on the same footing as any of the other Govern ment departments which had been alluded to: Ile had been a party to the report of 1831, and to the principle of that report he still agreed, though like the Hon. Mem ber for Portsmouth, he had since seen reason to modify his opinion ; in doing which, lie had acted under the example of the late Earl Spencer, who had given the question the greatest consideration. With respect to the public accounts, all inquiry that could he made was already gone into, and the most perfect system of booking now prevailed. The real question, therefore, left for consideration was the payment of the public money without first going into the Exchequer. Now, he main tained, as a soureprinciple, that no money should be paid from the revenue of the country unless it first went into the Exchequer, and should go into the estimates, but he saw that it would be practicably impossible to do this. This was a subject to which the late Lord Spencer had also given his attention ; and it was his decided opinion that any other course than the present one would not work. As it regarded the danger of improper application, this was provided against by the fact that every year the accounts had to be laid on the table, when they would be open for any Member to call any of the items into question. Lord J. RUSSELL roso to speak, : When an Hozs. MEMBER moved that the House be " counted. The gallery was then cleared, but there being 40 Members present, the House resumed. Lord 3. RUSSELL rose merely to say that he was one who, in 1831, signed the report, but since then he found that Lord Althorp was right, and that he was in error. 1)i. BOWRING briefly replied, and said that after the expression of opinion which he had obtained, he would withdraw his motion. THE STATE OF TIIE NAVY. Mr. HUME then rose to move for an inquiry into the state of the navy since 183'2, as regards the building, alterations, and repairs of her Majesty's ships. He said that about fifteen years ago, he had called the attention of the House to the state of the navy, and he was sorry that the evils he then complained of had not since been re moved. He stated then that the arrangements for the building of the ships of the navy were of the most imper fect character. Since that time the greatest scientific progress had been made in this country, especially in the application of iron for naval purposes, yet he would, be fore he sat down, show the House that the navy had not participated in these improvements. At that time the Right Hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) was:at the head of the Admiralty, and had, as he (Mr. Hume) had then stated, most unadvisedly put an end to the School of Naval Architecture which had then existed twenty-one years. Before he showed what the Right lion. Baronet destroyed, he wished to show why the school had been established. The young .men who had come forward—and they belonged many of athem to the most respectable families in the country— had inducements held out to them, that if they excelled in their departments, they would be eligible for appoint ments. - lie would read to the House an ex tract or two from the report of a Commission of 1806. The Honourable Member read an extract, showing that at that period th e apprent i ces i n the dockyard did not receive th e commonest elements of education, although, in after life the safety of the British navy was dependent upon them. The Commissioners recommended that this state of things should be altered, and the Government in 1811 established a school for naval architecture. At t h at t i me t h e b u i lders of the i r ships were mere copyists from other countries. The Go vernment held out to the pupils hopes that those who were attentive to their studies should be entitled to the emoluments of the dockyard, as master-measurer, mecha nists, shipwrights, and inspectors, with salaries varying from 1001. to 1000/. a-year. Mr. Peake was one of those persons deprived of this pullic benefit. The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that the institution had failed of pro ducing the good effects that were anticipated from it. He thought the fault lay with the Government themselves. They ought to have corrected the errors of the system, instead of extinguishing it altogether. Since that pe riod, he would ask, if any ship (worthy of the name) had been built? He believed not one. Certainly not one of the ships, lately built, would compare with the Thetis, or any other ship built by these pupils. Many of the pupils had eminently distinguished themselves. Where had they a treatise like that published by Mr. Chatfield, or papers like those published under the superintendence of Mr. Crueze. He would now give them the number of ships built since 1832, and the his tory of their construction ; and he would prove that they had been, in almost every instance, failures. lie would prove that, in almost every instance, the objects . required, namely , stronger and fighting qualities, had not been obtained ; ho would prove also that their al terations had been interminable, and that scarcely one of those ships answered the p ur p ose for which they were intended. He did not wish, by any observations of his, to throw discredit upon Captain Symonds, but he blamed the Admiralty, who could allow these proceedings to go on. Captain Symonds, like every other man, avas ready and willing to retain hi s p ower and his position, and he (Mr. Hume) could not blame him fur so acting. It was human nature. But whe re an im portant trust like this of the British navy, was concerned, it did become a question whether he had exercised that judgment wisely. He (Mr. Hume) had taken the trouble to see what was the amount of money which had been voted for wages during the fiftee n years, and he must acknowledge that it was a very large sum ; but if that money had been applied properly, he should h ave t h oug ht less of it. It amounted to twenty-two mil- lions ; and he ventured to say that be would prove, if this inquiry took place, that a very large pt.( p )rtion of that sum had been wasted. Under the two votes of wages and naval at ,res, he found that, since 1833, 8,000.0 101. had been granted for the former and 14,000,0004 for the latter. Deducting the vote of this year, 19,000,000/. would be left as the amount of the stores under the direction of Captain Symotd=. The statement as to the ships laid down during the same pe riod showed the following results:— Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's design, laid down since 1832 ... ... .. On designs by tho former surveyors, laid duwn in .. 9 1812 to 1828 ... ... ... On the French model of M. Sand ... 10 1 Total launched ..• Frigates, on design by Mr. Fincham, laid down in On Sir IV. Symonds's designs, laid down since 1831 15 On designs by the late surveyors, laid down in 1820 . to 1828 ... On the French model of Pestel, laid down in 1828... On design of School of Naval Architecture, laid down in December, 1814 . . On design by Admiral Hayes, laid down in 1836 ... On design by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, laid down in 1642 ••• •.• ••• ••• ••• Total launched Corvettes, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1831 On designs by the late surveyor, Sir R. Seppings, laid down in 1830 ... On desist ns by Professor Inman, laid down in IS2' On designs by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, in 1836 . . Total launched ... 7 Brigs, on designs by Sir W. S)monds, laid down since 1831 ... ... 24 On designs by Captain Hendry, laid down in 1842 ... On designs by different master-shipwrights, 1843 On designs by School of Naval Architecture, 1843 On designs by private builders, laid down in 1831, one—in 1843, one ... ... 2 Total Brigantines, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1835 On designs by Sir R. Seppings, laid down in 1829 • Total Packets, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1832, and launched ... ... 9 The following ships were building, or in progress : Ships of the Line, on Sir NV. Symonds's models' 19 On French model of Sane ... ••• 1 By Mr. Lang ... ... ... 1 By School of Naval Architecture ... ... 1 By the late Admiral Hayes 1 ... 23 .. 10 Total... ... Frigates, on Sir W. Symonds's models Mr. Finchana Mr. White (private builder), Deptford ... Mr. Blake (late master shipwright), Portsmouth ... Mr. Lang, jun., Woolwich ... Total... Corvettes, on Sir W. Symonds's model Brigs, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... ••• ••• • 11 Brigantines, on Sir W. Sy mon d s ' s model ::• The steam navy was not incl u d e d. Th e charge was, that failures in building ships had taken place to an enormous extent. Scarcely one ship had been laid down by Sir W. Symonds which had turned out other than a failure. He might instance that great ship, the Vernon, on which his character in a manner depended. Ile recollected that in that house Captain Rous, in speaking of these ships, referred to the Pique and the Vernon as bad sea-boats, shipping so much water, that there was danger on the main deck.—(Hear.) With regard to the Vernon, he should be prepared to prove, that in her first voyage she pitched so much as to nearly destroy her whole bulwarks, besides shipping se veral seas. The vessel, in point of fact, was a copy of an old French ship, which had years before been tried and found unsuccessful. He should be prepared also to prove that the vessels of the Vernon class, built by Captain Symonds and his assistants, were copies of former discarded models; and that CaptainlSymonds, and the others connected with him, displaced men in the pub lic service who, in experience and ability, were immea surably their superiors. The East India Company's vessels were built according to the old principles of naval architecture, and they had efficiently performed the duties they were built for; while all, or at least the ma jority of Captain Symonds's vessels had always to undergo expensive alterations before they were at all fit for ser vice. In fact, a ship built by Sir W. Symonds always re quired to have her bow lengthened, her rudder en larged, and her masts altered, and yet the Admiralty still allowed that gentleman's system to re main in operation, against the remonstrances of many eminent persons connected with the navy. Many per sons had been found to praise the Vanguard, and no doubt when she went out as a mere yacht she succeeded very well, but when she was sent out upon active service she pitched and tossed so much that she was completely knocked up, and when taken into dock at Davenport it was found that in two instances she bad split her cop pers, while her oakum had so worked cut that she had to be re-caulked. The consequence of this abominable system prevailing in her Majesty's dockyards had in volved the country in enormous expences. From the re turns he held in his hand he found that the Queen had cost 127,000/. and the Vanguard 111,0001. In like man ner the public money had been Squaniered on the Prince Albert and the Gascoigne, vessels of a lower class than those he had already mentioned, and he put it to the Itaise, whether it was right that this state of things should continue. NVas it creditable to the country ? lie apprehended not, for he would undertake to prove that in no community in the world was there so much money waited in buililipg, or, rather, in altering misbuilt ships as in England. There was the Star again. She, to,), was built at Wool. with, upon Sir W. Symonds' system, but in her first voyage to sea her decks were washed away, many of the gallant men who manned her were lost, and she had to be taken into dock again, and almost entirely rebuilt. Now was it right that a naval surveyor, who was so much incapacitated for his'; office as Sir Win. Symonds, should be permitted longer to squander the public money in 'his way. He thought ho had already stated sufficient to induce the House to grant this enquiry; but, if the House wished, he could still go on enumerating instances where the public money had been thrown away with impu nity by the naval architecture patronised by the Admiralty. He thought that the public ought to know the whole particulars connected with the state of things. Several vessels had also been condemned and sold out. There was the Scarborough, 74 guns, built by Sir W. Symonds; it had only been out it few months when it was sold for 6,0001., though it was worth 40,0001. There were also the Thames, the Liffey, and the Redoubtable, the whole of which were either sold or condemned without having seen scarcely any service ; some of them, indeed, not having been taken even off the stocks. There were also other portions of the service to which he must call the attention of the House. He thought it important to know whether the Surveyer of the Admiralty properly performed his duty, or whether the Board of Admiralty saw that those duties were properly performed. It was an instruction to the Surveyor of the Admiralty to re port once a year upon the condition of all her Majesty's ships in the navy, but for a number of years past no such return had been made by Sir W. Symonds. Mr. WARD—returns have been made. Mr. HUME—WeII, let him have the inquiry as asked for, and he would soon see whether such report had, or had not been made. Now, orders were given not to pro• ceed with the building of the Aboukir and Exmouth, in consequence of their having been defective. Those ves sels were laid down on the lines of the Albion, which rolled so much that it was quite a wonder how any men or guns could keep on the deck of the vessel. That ves sel, when tried,in the experimental squadron, rolled at an angle of 45 deg. When the result of the sailing q ualit i es of this vessel was known, orders were given not to build these vessels upon the same lines, and yet upon several occasions the works had continued with varied progress. lle came now to the steamers. lie found that when Sir W. Symonds started he had, by Admiralty order, the drawing of the following steam-vessels as a guide for his own construction, viz.:—The Comet, Lightning, Meteor, Pluto, Flanker, Firebrand, Firefly, Spitfire, and Medea, from which his first production (assisted by Mr. Edye) was the Galnare, increased in breadth from the Cornet. %His first vessel, the Gulnare, failed—too deep and very slow; her power was then increased to obtain speed, many alterations made in her fittings, &c., and to cover these mistakes her name changed to Gleaner; but still, being too deep was sent to Chatham, cut into two parts, and lengthened; still a failure, very slow and very deep—could not carry her coals and stores. This was a bad beginning, and a bad specimen of steam construc tion. The Blazer and Tartarus were the next two built—both failed. Their engines and boilers were taken out and new ones made of increased power—these vessels were laid up ten months, during the time the alterations were going on. Hermes, the next built, rolled and pitched to such a degree that she was also sent to Chatham in May, 1840, to be cut in two parts and lengthened two feet at the keel and twenty feet on deck. She had siace had an upright stem and addi tional power, with other alterations. Volcano, a sister vessel, had the same propensities of rolling, &c. She plunged her bowsprit into the sea, and lost her jibboom and jib in the ocean, as s he could not bring them up again. Gorgon, built at Pem broke— intended to carry guns, but found to be so deep in the water the ports were obliged to be caulked in, copper on the bottom raised, and her power increased. The Cyclops, a sister vessel, in consequence of the Gorgon failing, was lengthened to remedy the evil, but could not carry the guns intended, being still too deep in the water. After these and other repeated errors, he has increased the length of his steam-vessels and altered their forms. The Devastation, and that class of steamers, have been brought up to the same proportion of length as the Medea, and their figure made to assimilate more to that vessel. u to the royal yacht. He was one o f those wheo,nwohweenauSlier Robert Peel made the proposal for building this yacht, was of opinion that there were so many ya c ht s t h att h ere was no occasi on f or any more ; but they were ass u r e d by the Government th at it would additional exp ense, and that i b be made at very little be convert e d i nto a war steamernifne caseesof war, it whatmight was the res u lt ? T h i s was the last 'e tha s t ary wa . s built after all their experience. A very dull man might become a shipwright in fifteen years ; but still there was dis played about this vessel a want of scientific knowledge —a want of knowing what the effect of displace ment, fore and aft, in relation to the ship's figure was, that had been the cause of all the Surveyor's failures. This royal yacht was so imperfectly constructed that she was obliged to carry 120 tons of ballast towards her stern ; and when she was launched she sank her head into the water with her stern a 'aka a duck diving.—(A laugh.) She would not answer her helm, end had been altered again and again, but he wanted an account of those alterations. He be lieved that she had cost 100,0001. That was the last act of Sir W. Symonds. Whether the Admralty had examined the line, or had taken any opinion upon it, he could not tell ; but there seemed to be a kind of ,com pact between the Admiralty and the surveyor. Su .ch a state of things was a discredit to any country. Bu t he had not yet done. The Lizard, 150 horse power, a packet, iron steamer, built by Sir William Symo nds, commissioned at Woolwich in 1542 by Lieutenant I lac donald, was nearly sinking i n th e basin from the we ight of her stores ; and all her stores, officers, crew, guns, tk,c , were turned over to th e S p i tf i re of the same size, fati.t constructed by Mr. 0. W. Lang, jun., and now in the Mediterranean. The Spitfi re too k them all with heavier of coals, besides guns and double the quantity many other additions. The Spitfire's engines are old and very heavy, compared with the newer mak e i n the Lizard. There were many similar instances of failure, also Ge falsification in that return. The Lizard required to be altered, and lighter guns and fewer stores than were originally intended for her. But he would now turn to the official report of Captain LuQhin;.;ton of the Retri bution, of her putting hack into Plymouth after the gale (on the 6th or 7th of June, 1846), when she washed her shot out of the racks about the nee k; and his and Cap tain. Ramsay's reports of his last trial with the Terrible about the 'id or 3d of July, 18460 would show the com plete defeat of the Retribution. Ile believed that the Terrible had turned out a very good ship ; and that whether under sail or in any kind of duty she had con ducted herself well. Both Captain Ramsay and Sir W. Parker had reported well of her. Ile had another list of vessels that had been taken down and destroyed, but he was really ashamed to trouble the House with it. He thought ho had stated enough to show that in order to stop the abuse of spending money and materials the whole system should be placed under some proper control. He was told there was a committee of reference, but that committee was not in his opinion properly qualified; they had not had a proper education; whilst it should be remembered that a former Admiralty had shown their wisdom and authority by appointing a committee of master ship wrights, and the said committee by their report entirely condemned the line of Sir W. Symonds' ships. The next point he came to was that of expense. By a return which was moved for by the Hon. and Gallant Officer, the Member for Nlarylebone, he found that the Queen cost 127,0001., and the Trafalgar 114,0001., but he be lieved the valuation. was made in the time of war, whets the whole charge was at war prices. The next ship, the Albion, which was to be the example and pattern of all others, up to the Ist of March, 1846, had cost 104,0484 The Rodney cost 145,000/ It was originally a better ship than the Albion, but 17,000/. had been expended upon her in alterations, and she had been spoiled. The Vanguard cost 111,000/.; the Penelope 101,0004 Those were large sums of money, but it was not so much the money as the system he complained of. He really thought it was high time that " Symonds the Destroyer should be prevented from wasting the public money in this manner, and a Committee of Inquiry ought to be instituted. It might be said that a committee of ship wrights was now sitting as a committee of reference, but he contended that they were not competent to the task which he thought ought to be performed. He did think the state of things which he had described was a reproach, after the report made on the state of the navy so far back as 1806. After the example set them by France, and after the extension of education, he did think that they should bare had proper ships con structed, and fully equal to those of any other country ; but nothing of the kind had occurred, and the details which be had laid before the House showed that they had entrusted the navy to quacks—(Cheers)— to persons without the requisite knowledge or education for the proper performance of the tasks they were entrusted with. Looking at the state of the navy during the last fifteen years, and the immense interests involved, he did think that the time had come when an inquiry should take place, in order that the exact condition of the navy might be shown, and suggestions made for placing it on a different footing, one worthy of this country, in which young men might acquire the requisite knowledge for the important offices they were destined to fill ; but the existing schools did not afford sufficient information to all. They had had discussion after discussion with respect to the capabilities of particular ships, and it was but due to the public to make an inquiry, in order that they might be informed whether the statements which had been made public from time to time were true or un true. On a question of education, and on a question of expense, he considered it to be their duty to make an inquiry. If it were granted, he should be prepared to show that both time and materials had been wasted, and that, considering everything, it was a wonder they stood as well as they did. Lord ING - ESTRE was glad that the subject had been brought forward as a distinct motion, and not incident ally on the supply nights, when but a few professional gentlemen were present. The construction of the mari time deficiences of this country was a subject deserving of the most serious consideration of every Member of that House, for it was not fair, not consistent with the high character of this country, that our gallant seamen should be called upon t 3 perform their duties in badly constructed ships.—([fear.) Ile wished to return his sincere grati tude to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the subject in its present shupe. He had particularly to complain of the equipment of the navy, and he considered that the person employed as the navy surveyor should be ascertained to be a person fit for the duties he would have to discharge, before he vi as appointed; but one per son was not capable of discharging the duties which came within the province of that office.—(hear.) No doubt great and useless expenses hail been incurred; as he found that, in 1835, the cost of sailing ships was 1,336,000 L, and that almost a similar sum had been exTe .ded in the construction of steamers during the same year. Conti nual fluctuations in the mode of construeing vessels oc curred, showing that the science which required such continual change, must be exceedingly def. ctive. An example of faulty construction was to be found in the Vernon, to which their attention had been frequently derected, he had been favoured with a letter respecting the Albion, from an officer, whom lie would have been glad to have sett in more active service, viz. Capt. Ryder Burton. lie stated that that ship was eriginally intended to carry 68-pounders, but as she sank so much on being launched, a lighter calibre of 32-pound ers b a d t o be r substituted, as the stores and other heavy materials were below the centre of gravity, and that if she had remained as originally intend, d she would have rolled over, and that even in her present condition she would be exposed to great danger during a squall in the Bay of Biscay. Yet she was intended as a model for other ships.—(Hear, hear.) This letter (continued the Noble Lord) stated, in a few words, the whole question ; fur the great complaint against the surveyor was, that all the ships built by him had this fault. They all knew the great injustice uone to our officers and men during the late American war, owing to their being sent out in small and insignificant ships—(clear)—but he hoped this would never occur again, and that proper ships fitted for service would he invariably used.—(hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then read a list of several trials that had been made at various times with the model ships, in which he alleged the experiments had been attended with the most unsatisfactory results. He aid not wish to fatigue the House after the details which had been given by the Hon. Member for Montrose, still he must say that there was too much disposition amongst those in power to put down any attempt made to interfere with their mode of transacting business. Every one who endeavoured to make improvements in the navy, especially in the building of ships, had been met with the most pettifogging obstruction, and every obstacle put in their way. lie denied that it was true, es as serted, that every improvement recently made, in the contruction of ships, had been plagiarised from Sir W. Symons. Any one, who would make an impartial in quiry into the matter, would find that this was not the fact. Neither the country nor the House would remain satisfied with the resent state of naval architecture in this country, and they would have ere long to establish a school fur this purpose. his astonishment was, that it should have ever been abolished, seeing how impor tant it was to the interests of the country. The ease of the Albion alone, which hail been cited, was suffi cient to warrant a committee of inquiry, without any other reasons being adduced. This ship had been ad mitted to be a complete failure. If not in these precise terms, at least in words to the same effect, this was admitted. Tho Noble Lord next complained of the returns which had been laid on the table of the Admiralty, and considered that they did not give a fair representation of the state of the navy. He would not detain the I louse longer, and would con clude by expressing a hope that an inquiry would be made into the whole subject, and that a echo.] of some kind would be established for the teaching of naval architecture, that thereby the vessels o f this countryo_th. would be able to compet e in future with any f other nations of the earth. Bill which f i n i n t e d n i c t i t o m n e n t to. he e ur h su ad e preferred sl. l i r e . n " . r l A 'r i i i e D nd s a t i h d ro i u t g w h as the n ot against the Ministriet h l' v l i c n h g had ht b rd een fr i o n m offi th ee e for the last fifteen years; but Noble Lord who had sat down that they stood in the way of the efficiency of the navy of England, he con fessed that he could not see how that efficiency could be promoted by the inquiry moved for by the Hon. Member. Errors such as the Hon. Member described might have taken place, but had he not now a security against their recurrence ? Some of the most eminent members of the late School of Naval Architecture —;11r. Reed, Mr. In man, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Fincham—were now mem bers of the committee of instruction, to whom, and to the Surveyor of the Navy, all plans for the building of new ships were referred by the Admitalty. Could any better system be devised, combining a responsibility to that House, than that one which the Government had determined to adopt ? The Gallant Commode re (Sir C. Napier) had suggested the appointment of some inter \ mediate person or persons, but a hat would that he but the Surveyor of the Navy in another shape ?—(Hear.) The best responsibility was obtained by having in that Rouse those who were nt the head of affairs, and who might be accused, either justly or unjustly, as the case might be, for whatever had been done by their super intendence or by their direction. His Henour able Friend could have no better security than the system now established, and which the Noble Lord naw at the head of the Admiralty intended to adhere to most strictly in all his future proceedings. He entirely doubted the possibility of any Board of Ad miralty in this country devising a Ferfect model for the building of all future ships. It was desirable, no doubt, to have as much science as possible in shipbuilding; but in the construction of ships of war there were so many different requirements to be sought which were not con :tried to one point, but combining many and opposite qualifications, that the perfect model which they wanted was still to be sought. The Thetis had been mentioned, but the gentlemen who had constructed her had jai- ) the Itake as to cued Bich, ug ht tithe the xuse tally m ust adapt th,it ` MI