The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-04 00:00:00

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About five o'clock, Lord PELHAM entered the louse, when various Peers called fur the Order of the day. As the Order was about to be read; Lard GRENVILLE rose, and just brought to the Noble Secretary of State's recolleaion, what had passed on a former evening, relative to certain information being expected with regard to the situ 4tion in which Portugal is placed by the late Trea ties, and hoped he was prepared to afford it, or Would not objet to the produCtion of the Papers Then adverted to. This Proposition gave rise to a' very long, de tultory, and, in the opinion of several Peers, irre gular conversation. Lords iGkENVILLE, THUR row, PELHAM, HOBART, and the CHANCELLOR, Were the principal Speakers. The conversation turned principally upon points of Order, and on this ground, at the same' time the original Proposition of Lord GRENVILLE Was rather warmly .discussed. Lend PELHAM, as on a former evenirg, depre tate(' all previous discussion, chiefly on -'the ground LA - irregularity' He referred to.: the situation of Portugal, • as in a great degree of public 'notoriety, c . : 11 account of the publicity of the Treaties-of Bacla- Joz and Madrid, and alluded to the obvious impro_ Ptle:v of producing, were it pra&icable to the full xterlt, the State' 'Papers alluded to - by the Noble "'ord. ,• ford Gi?ENVILLE, who was several tiines'on his ';u in the course Of. the conversation, • contended t hut the information 'required by hirn, - uraneceS. ai ry to enable the. House to come to a right judgment ) 1 : the Preliminaries submitted to their discussion. t ic thought that it was indecorous to press 'the dis cussion, which Ministerial Lords • seemed inclined 1 ,5 ) do, without such information being previ ous ly f urnish e d. He wished however rather to put this Ce 't'sidera t i o n to the candour of Ministers than to , e i t avour to obtain it by means,ola Motion, Lord PELHAM, in • reply, repeated his former tlu krvation ; after which he went somewhat into 'crail, with respeet to the situation in which Por tug:ll had been placed by the late Treaties; and ad rilitsed, that a small portion of Territory had been Ned by that Power to Spain, for the purposes of 4 %lmi:elation. As to France, unquestionably (14 hie al Les atiuns h a d b een ma d e w i t h respe tt to t h e dun Aries ' of their respedi ve p ossess i ons i n S o uth la •ss- ner ca. 4 °rg GRENVILLE ob s erved, that to a certain exte nt, his questions had been s olved by t h e N o bl e s e' 2 reta ry . He must consider, however, the Trea ty of 13adajoz, as not of corhmon notoriety—He, for t) , n e, never saw it. At t h e sa me ti t tle, h e u n d erst o o d, th at by one of the Treaties, the River Alveira was 4 , made th e B oun d ary o f t h e F renc h part of Guiana : h i lls •he thought a very import / ant consideration, as Y such a cession, the French were put into posses rsz)n of a port which completely commanded the en trance of the great River Amazons. There still re_ s tained some points unresolved, which lie still thought tt Would be. proper t o h ave ` sat i s f a d or il y exp l a i ne d • b efore th e di scuss i on o f t h e P re li m i naries was en tered upon. As one o f t h ose , h e p ut to. the Noble Zretary, whether by the late Treaties, Portugal e% at liberty to m a i n t a i n t h e same CommercialQuneetions with us as heretofore ? • 1, Lord PELHAM shortly replied, th a t by t h e Isi t eliminaries, as now bef ore th e H ouse , P ortuga l as not bound either way as to Commercial Con ions. Lard GRENVILLE expressed his wish for further ex planation., o , on the -point, whether the provisions ',' the T reat y at M a d r id , on the 29th of September, ' l east as far a s resp e ct e d t h e r i ver Al ve i ra , as t h e Itlntlary of French Guiana, was superseded by our reliminary Treaty ? t.. Zgrd-THUR LOW here spoke to Order—He cen 4red the 'conversation Wesieli had detained the 11 :) use, as disorderly. The Order of the . Day was , t ? only subjed th en b e f ore t h e House, and which A 1 414 only be euperseded by nicalis of another 9 rti GRENVILLE observed, that the Noble i,,, , ',``,' Learned Lord's objedion was easily o b v i ate d )g,, proposing a Motion. However, the Order of 1 , 4 ; "ay was not then before the House : it had : 1)1 t bee n regularly moved. His Lordship then .11,1 °; ,ds " That an Address be presented to His ti o 4 Jesty, p r ayi ng • th at t he re b e l a id b e f ore t h e 1 , , use .t Cope of the Treaty between the Court of sf ugal,, pt and the French Republic on the 29th of 1 ., 51 .,i last ;" and he would put it to any Noble it s ow , whether the House could, consistently with l' • n credit, proceed to the discussion of the Pre, qlii n - . 1 te 4 les without the information which might be -Pea • i ro ns z eci the 'Treaty in question. l lr "4 I/OBART deprecated at least the irregu- C it. ) ? of the discussion; which he observed could but 1 L ot . _Poe escaped the known accuracy of the Noble ji u who trade the Motion.-.-The subjed then re -1):rlY before the House was the Preliminaries of a t he ce agreed upon between Great Britain and France, llowdsalso with regar d to t h e terr i tor i es o f t h ose is tre erg and th e i r . Allies"; but without the least re_ t raft n se to: the . Commercial Situations of the Con teritlng Parties. • I-le begged the Noble Lord to In i ct how he hiniSslf should ad did he then stand .• .. i t ' h e . sit n [i 'f ioli . (,f HisMajesty's ' present Ministers. 1-I, eth e zn L k Or c D. NCE-1. LO R then Observed— .. la: Noble and Learned Friend for har ing in die& put him in mind of his duty. His Lordship seemed to advert to an evident disorder in the present line of proceeding of certain Noble Lords. With respect to the Motion made by the Noble Lord, he censured it in decided terms, ob serving, at the same time, that no man in the House, who had an adequate knowledge and expe rience of his duty, could countenance a Motion for the produetion of the Papers adverted to by the Noble Lord a few.days ago. He thought that in the experience of their Lordships an instance could not 'be shewn in which the produdion of such Papers was agreed to. At the same time, he deprecated the affectation of candour, which, in passing by the regu_ lar course of a Motion, put it to the feelings of any Noble Lord to obtain the desired. information. With respeet to what might pass elsewhere, he would not comment ; but were such a Motion made in that House, he, as an individual Peer, even if no other Lord should support him, would oppose such a Mo tion. The question was at any time of the greatest delicacy *and importance, and more particularly at the present moment, when the question f pfPeace, at least on a permanent foundation, was at issue. He' thought the country highly obliged to. that Noble Lord for his condutt during the War, and he would always recollect, with pride and •satisfaetion, the support he had given him at those periods, but to no consideration whatever, would he suffer his duty to bend. His Lordship concluded with some strong observations as to the ill tendency of such a Motion, land deprecated the delay which was then created with. resped to the regular business of the House. Lord GRENVILLE observed, that his Noble and Learned Friend might easily do away that by put ting. the Motion he had proposed. Lord TllURLOWinsisted that, as the House was then citaimstanced, the putting such a Motion as proposed-by the Noble Lord, was irregular. . This produced a long and desultory conversation, and chiefly of an explanatory nature respeding the point of Order, which our restricted limits do not permit us to recite. The contest was principally between Lords 'lnuit LOW, GPLENVIGLE, and 'the LORD CHANCELLOR. Lord GRENVILLE, in the course of the above observed, that. even admitting, that the. Motion for the Order of the Day should precede others, it was a regular thing•by the way of amending the Motion for the Order. In the course of this dispute,. The Earl of DARNLEY took occasion to make a few observations. He seemed to deprecate the present discussion as premature and irregular.—He would put it to the Noble Lord who opposed the Order, how he should at himself upon such an oc casion—and even in the recolleCtion of his pradi4 ; and he could nor refrain from observing, that the Noble Secretary had, in his' opinion, answered the questions of the Noble Lord much more fairly than he had ever known him to do on similar occasions. The Duke of NORFOLK shortly . sugg-ested the propriety of postponing the Motion for the Order of the Day. _ _ _ Lord GRENVILLE expressed his readiness to propose his Motion according to whatever forin the sense of the House should deem most eligible. Earl SPENCER supported what had fallen from his Noble Friend Lord GR ENV IL LE. The Earls of CARNAR VOW and RAD . OR, and the Duke of BEDFOIib, said each a few words. The LORD CHANCELLOR decided, that the Motion for the Order of the Day should precede all others. After some further explanations on the part of the above Peers, the Loan CIiANCFLLOR yet the question, " That the Order of the Day pe now read ;" which being carried in the affirmative, ope rated as a negative, on the Motion proposed by Lord GRENV !LLE. The Preliminaries of Peace were then read at length by the Clerk. The Earl of ROMNEY then rose, and in a speech of some length, in which he displayed much ability and information, delivered his sentiments on the %-ery important subject before the House. He ob served, that the very extensive and protraded War in which the Country had lately been engaged, was, in his opinion, said!) , a defensive War, and there fore just and necessary.lt was forced upon us, and we were constrained to defend - ourselves against the efreeis of t1,103c principlcb, which, at t h e t i me o f - its commencement, and during a long' period of its continuance, were gaining ground in every part of Europe. Circumstances, however in this respel, had since happily changed, and it was with pleasure, he observed, that the present Government of France was, judging from its anions, as inimical to those de strudive principles as we wereourselves. It was idle to contend that this Country was not, during the late Contest, under the necessity of submitting to heavy burthens ; •but, on the other hand, he had to con gratulate the Country on the success of its exertions. It may be said, that the power of France was now greater than before the War—He would acknow ledge it ; but this, he must observe, was not at the expellee of Britain. The late War was as success ful as any recorded in our history, not even except ing- that conduded by the late Lord CHATHAM. In the last year of the late War—he put it to Noble Lords, if our successes did not exceed • their most sanguine expedations he alluded particularly to Egypt and also entered into a detailed view of certain operations of the late. War, to• evince, that wherever the British were equally matched to the French, they were uniformly vic torious. The conduct of Ministers in holding forth the Olive Branch in the moment of success, was an equaPy - wise, and just line of policy—they did well to :Consider the,burthens which the continuance of the War • must • impost on the great body of the People and he praised the patience with which they had borne the. various heavy Imposts, during the War, particularly the Country Gentlemen, whose pa tience and patriotism in these respeds, he said, were beyond commendation. At the same time, he was far from admitting, that the National Resources were seriously diminished, on the contrary, those joined to 'the brilliant Successes of our ,tams,. would have enabled us, if necessary, to have con. tinued the contest. In proof •of this, his Lord ship adverted to the great and increasing Commer-. cial Prosperity of the Country, and her unshaken financial credit. The_ question then fairly 'before . their Lordships, was, whether under the presont circumstances, they would wish to carry on the War, or accept of such P re li m i nar i es 9f Peace as they had heard read ? For his parr, he had no doubt of their being truly advantageous and honourable, and considering the uncertainty of War, and the in_ creasing burthens of the Country, Minissess ailed wisely, and were entitled to the. Thanks of the' HOuse for having procured such Terms of Peace.--; His Lordship entered into a detailed"and compara tive view of the objets and progress of former wars, particularly the two preceding wars, and inferred, that the present Treaty of Peace wag - , in every re sped, as favourable to England as those Treaties which had terminated either of the wars all , ided to. The principal objects for which the late. War was undertaken, he contendeil, were atchieved, namely, the preservation of our . Religion, Laws, and Constitution. He then adverted to some of the . specific articles of the Preliminaries, and comment.. ed upon the'great national advantages in the acqui sition of the islands of Ceylon anclTrinidad. Those which we gave up could he retained only at an im mense expense, and would afford no additional pro. tedion to our commerce. He adverted to some - parts of the condud of France; which sheaved its sincerity with iesped to the Peace, int' instanced its moderation in not claiming any part of our vast acquisitions in India from the usurper Tippoo. To expatiate in detail 'Upon these advantages would fall to the Jot of those who were better able to do jus. 'dee . to the subject ; with respect to hlMself, he, • saw the great advantages likely to accrue 'to the Country from - the present / Treaty of Peace ; as such he could congratulate their Lordship . and the Country ie and, without taking bp' more pf . '!heir time,. would move,an Address to His Kijes4,:on the oceasion of his graCious communication, of the Preliminaries Peace ;';'and ex4resslvetheir Lordships' fUll approbatiOn thercof, AO o - ripeir • • • )": • high sense of His Majestys justicettn, tno eraclop, Sze. - Having moved an Address`_ to this 'efral e ; reazl'in . the usual way, by theeLoi6 J AZ,z,4o -3 ' when: " Lord- Fiscomt LIMERICK: rom -to support the Address, and to deliver hTesekentiments l upon the very important .suhjeet before the House. He ob- . served it augured strongly in fa %Tarr of'the Treaty of Peace, that_all ranks and .descriptions of men in • the Kingdom, generally speaking; united in appro_ ving the measure, and were foud in their expressions of joy. He was sorry at the same time to be aware, • that some of the highest eharaelers, of the greatest knowledge and most unimpeached integrity, differed widely from him in their opinions on this. great measure. In his estimation, the Preliminaries were most opporttinely concluded ; their tenor was ad_ vanteeeous, and the whole proceeding highly ho, , nourahle to the National CharaCter. Let 'their Lordships lock to the f at e o f surroundine- Nations, and compare the way in which they had concluded Peace with the recent common Enemy, with the mode in which Great Britain had agreed to terms of Peace, and the result woeld obviously he in favour of this Country. Its charafter was undiminished, and not one inch of her Antient Territories or Possessions were taken from, her; on the contrary, our Laws, Religion, and Constitution were preserved pure anti inviolate. Let the present- situation of this Country be compared even with that in which she stood at the last Peace, enti the comparison, he averred, would decidedly be in favour of her present cir eumstances.------On the former 'occasion, cur finest Colonies were rent from the bosom of the Parent 'State. Island after Islarel, and I , 'artress after For tress, were- shamefully ceded to the Enemy ; that Peace was deservedly reprobated by all.—The Mi nistry of that day were prevented froni perfeaing what they had well begino being driven from their -seats by an unexpected and unnatural . Coalition— He hoped nothing of that sort, no paltry Coalition would take place in the present day. Recurring to the regular subjea, his Lordship repeated, let the situation of the Country now be considered, and the contrast marked—see the conduft of Britain and her , successful interference with respett to her Allies,. Turkey and Portugal—He believed in regard to those, all that could, had been done ; •with respect to our late Ally, the Prince of Orange, for the in terests -of whose Country and House the War was partly undertaken, his present situation could not fairly be imputed to Britain, the fault lay elsewhere. In touching VI this part of his subject, his Lordship entered into some details respecting the affairs of Holland, and the Restoration of the Stadtholder in 1787, as well as respefting certain operations in the early part of the present War in Belgium and . ' Holland—the joss of the latter could not beire-. pored' to us. Other causes,. the fault of which lay in other quarters, joined. to the great ,severity of 'the season, occasioned that misforttme. On no former .occasion did the skill and bravery of our' Naval and Military OfiicerseandMen shine forth with greater, • brilliancy. He wouldiostance the cases of .Egypt and Aboukir--on the Coast of Africa , these , • legions heretofore. deemed, invincible, ,who had over-run Italy—crossed her mountains and rivers with facility, sacked her fortresses and: depo pulated her plains, were beaten, and actually; yielded to half the number of flu; ish s. 7nd hid their diminished heads behind the walls of Alexandria. We had, however, to regret the loss of that real Hero who led on tilose Troops to Vic tory and imm o rtal Honour----His Spirit howevcr did not die ; it fell upon tho se ga ll ant Offi ce r s w h o succeeded in command, and whose conduft best spoke their eulogium; and some of those Officers were of that part of the-United Kingdom to which he had the honour to belong. Having mentioned that Country, his Lordship observed he had a. few ous observations to address to , the House upon that important part of the subjed. That that part of the empire produced men of as good hearts and as sound heads as any other part of the world, it was unnecessary for him to say ; but a great part of the inferior orders of its inhabitants were so cireum _ stanced as to require the greatest circumspekaion on the part of the Government. When the g ibb et Is: d ceased to be - burthened, and the sword was sheath_ . ed, there were many who ima g ined it pr o c ee d e d froM fear, and whe n England was left alone in the late arduous contest, their hopes obViously revived. In what a situatio n En g l an d wou ld b e l e f t, i f the projeds of the Traitors in that country had succeeded, he shuddered , to contemplate even in imagination. She -,vnuld not then be fighting for this o r t h at i s l a nd, but for her ver y existence as an independent nation. And though he had no doubt of her being ultimately successful, yet what sacrifices such a contest must demand, their Lordships would best feel. After dwelling somewhat in detail on this part of his subjed, his Lordship expressed his hope, that a strong Peace Establishment would be kept up, as such he thought absolutely necessary ; and he hoped no narrow or short-sighted policy would counteraet such a wise precaution. The War he always held to be necessary, and of course just ; and the late Ministers deserved the gratitude and applause of the Country, for their conduft v-ith resin& to it. The present Ministers likewise deserved the greatest applause. They were vested with the reins of Go vernmeut at a period of great difficulty, and_ their conduft since .evinced their patriotism and abi lity' ; particularly in their condu , ,fl in procuring for. the nation such advantageous Preliminaries of Peate. Earl SPENCER e x p resse d h i s regret in finding himself, from considerations of duty, obliged to take a different part with respe& to the Question bef6re the House, from the Noble Lords whom he so highly respeaed ; and so far to oppose the govern ment of Ministers for whom he had so great an .esteem. On the grounds of the consistency of his own charaaer s and with reference to the priseiples ons which 'he had not long sijfce held - a high :Ind ccient ,Q4ce under tiis Majc:;ty's Guvernnvnit, .not only on these grounds, hut even as an irides Pendent Peer, and even as a Subjea of the King, he felt himself' bound to adopt his present lin e o f condud. He wished, however, he could join tithse 'Lords in .deemiog the Peace secure and adequate such an end a just and necessary War should always have ; but where were they to look for such a ter.. mination among the Preliminary Articles before the House ? So far from it, that as far as England was concerned, every thing we had conquered had been given up—every means of proteifting our Foreign Possessions and Commerce were sacrificed. The Ces sions, if not made direaly to France s were made to Countries under the controul of that Power. In what view could the Pease be called honourable ? or under what circumstances were the Integrity of the Do.. minions.of our Allies stipulated for ? Turkey was already evacuated by the successes of our Armie&— It had been the determination of France to have evacuated Rome and Naples before the Treaty was made ; and, with respea to Portugal, further . in_ formation was obviously necessary. With respect to the interests of the House of Orange, no mention whatever was made of diet; in the Preliminary Treaty. The general tenor of the Articles mills tated against the great principles of Security and. Indemnity, for which the War was undertaken.--s He noticed the case of the Cape of Good Hope, and the restorations made to France in the East. Indies, which would lay the foundation of their future power and command in that Coun try ; ,and, by the Treaty with Portugal, their power with respea to the Brazils, was tot) obvious to be contended for. The Noble Earl proceeded to review various other important arrangements in the Preliminaries, respeEting which, he pronounced the same opinion. Drawing towards a conclusion, he observed; " If ever Peace was precarious, this I " contend `will be so-ss-if ever Peace was dangerous, " this will be so in the highest degree I" . The DUKE of CLARENCE delivered his senti. silents at- some length, and with considerable abi lity.-s-A great part of His Royal Highness's speech was accompanied with detailing certain ope-- rations, 'not only of the late, but of the American War, and that of 1756; his objeft in this review, seemed to be, to shew the superior brilliancy of • the British atchievements in the Naval and Military lines in general, and that in the late War, they equalled, if not exceeded, those at any former period. He particularly dwelt on the various Campaigns in Flanders and Hol. land, in the present War, events, the ultimate ill .successes of which were not attributable to this Country. He pointed out, with much effea, the heroic exploits of General LAKE, at Lincelless In Egypt, and in India too,- his Royal Highness pointed out She superior lustre . of the British at.. ehicvernents, and spoke with much warmth and feeling of the exertions and exploits of the gallant and lamented AB E RCROMBY, and the Hero of the Nile. He then took a view of the Preliminaries, and contended for the great advantage's held out to the Country. He minutely described the great Cornmerdial and Military advantages of the Islands