The Sun. — London, England, 1832-06-06 00:00:00

of considering the value of amendments made by a boil , not in the exercise of its proper functiona.—(Loud chum, fromn the Opposition.) Under other circumstances, who four or rive pages of au endments—six pages he believer there were—when six pages of amendments were made it a Bill, and a Bill, too, of so much importance as that be fore the Housa, he might have asked for an interval of a' least no or two days for the purpose of considering the amendments previously to giving them his final sanction. But those amendments having been made by the House of Lords under compulsion—(cheer:)-1 e could not but give his assent to them. The Noble Lord had congratulated the House that the essential principles of the Bill had not been altered. Surely the Noble Lord might have spared a congratulation which amounted to a bitter sneer.— (Cheers.) He maintained that the independence of that House had been completely extingni.lied. No such attack had ever been made upon their independence since the reign of Queen Anne.—(Cheers.) They were compelled to allow the passing of the Bill, or see it carried by means of a creation of Peers sufficient to crush their indepen dence for ever.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)— The Noble Lord said the circumstances of the country required that they should resort to this step as the lesser of two evils. It might possibly be so. But that did not destroy, it rather established the main fact, that the House of Lords acted under compulsion.—( Hear, hear.) This nobody could deny. But had lie been a Peer, and the al ternative had been pint to him previously to the second read ing of the Reform Bill, he would have continued to give it his oppo•ition.—(Bear.) He would rather have forced the Government to the unconstitutional exercise of the pre rogative than have suffered the mere menace to prevail. This, had he been a Peer, he would have done before the ,?,d reading. He admitted that after the second reading, and after the result of the division on the Chief Baron's mo tion, and the failure of all attempts to form an Admini stration, tie circumstances of the case were changed._ (Rear.) God forbid that he should be considered as throwing any imputation on men, who he doubted not, tutted from the most honourable motives. But he re peated, that prior to the second reading, he would rather have forced the Government to that unconstitutional ex ercise of prerogative which they threatened than suffer a mere menace to overawe the House. The menace, they should remember, was much easier than the act; and if Government found the menace so successful in carrying a favourite measure in the very teeth of the House of Peers, who could insure them against the repetition of a similar menace on any future occasion ?—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had adverted to the circumstances of the country as rendering such an act, in his opinion, mental to the wel fare of the people, and to the tranquillity and safety of the country. Even if he admitted that proposition—if he admitted that the country was in a state which made any denial of its demands dangerous to its tranquillity, by whom, he would ask, was the country roused up to that pitch of excitement, which left them no alternative but that of entirely setting aside the authority of the House of Lords?—( Hear, hear.) It was to the acts, to the con duct, to the language of the Government that the great excitement of the country was owing, and not so much to the provisions of the Bill itself. Was it well done of his Majesty's Government to permit the inflammatory speeches which had been from time to time made? Was it well done of his Majesty's Government by their conduct to en courage and promote, instead of seeking to assuage the excitement which must infallibly follow the proposition of Buell a measure ?—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord said it was not right to make the Government responsible for the imprudent acts or language of public speakers. The Noble Lord had admitted his intimacy— Lord ALTHORP said something across the table, which was inaudible in the gallery. Sir ROBERT PEEL—WeII, then, his acquaintance— his occasional communications with one of the parties whose conduct was arraigned/; but lie disclaimed that he had communicated to him any state information, and on this point lie was inclined to admit that the Noble Lord's defence was satisfactory. But it was the various acts per formed by the Members of the King's Government them aelea-es that were much more calculated in increase excite ment, than the declarations of demagogues at public meetings. Dld the Noble Lord remember his own decla ration, a declaration which, he believed, he land since sincerely repented, and would now be inclined to recant? When the King's Ministers held such language, no wonder that the country was agitated ; no wonder that the:country was agitated when the Noble Lord, the representative of the King's Government in that House, made use of such language. S en ti men t s o f t hi s ki n d cou ld no t b e uttere d by responsible Ministers of the Crown without producing c onsequences which they might not, at the time of utter ance, contemplate. He bad, however, admitted, that it was a hasty and inconsiderate expression. (He then pro ceeded to make some other allusion, which it appeared Lord Milton applied to himself.) Oh no, it was not quite so had as that; it was not quite so bad as the declaration of the Noble Lord, who, upon his own individual sense of a grievance, declared that he would set the example of re fusing to pay;taxes.—(Hear.) He alluded to the correspon dence of Ministers with members of Political Unions, to the r epresentation of the opinions of a large part of the Legis lature, as the whisper of a faction.—(Cheers.) These ex . pressions fell tom a responsible Minister of the Crown, an d were therefore sure to propagate themselves among the People. It was such declarations and such acts as these that led to the destruction of the independent power of the other branch of the Legislature.—(Loud cries of hear, from the Opposition.) Then there were the newspapers— (Hear)—there were certainly newspapers on all sides of t he question, but there were some whose principles avowedly coincided with those maintained by the Govern rent, not th at h e meant to hold Government responsible r all the violent declarations of the newspapers which e v :rosed th e i r cause—hut there were some newspapers Which, on different occasions, published documents that could only come from persons in official situations—(Hear) —yet those very papers had also promulgated sentiments at which every reflective mind must shudder, and which, Whatever they might say, were certainly calculated to in cite the multitude to the assassination of those who ven tured to diff er front in opi n i on . And though he believed that no person connected with the Government partici pated in any suc h sent i ments, yet, how were the public toascertain that fact ? One day they clearly saw that these papers must be in confidential communication with his Majesty's Government—on the next day they were propa gating doctrines revolting to every honourable mind and to the common feelings of humanity. This being the case, how are the public to know that the Government would repudiate the doctrines held forth in papers which it is clear to all the world they have made their official organs? It was declarations and acts of the kind to which he had adverted that had more mischief than the acts of any per sons unconnected with Government. These declarations had been made—inconsiderably, perhaps—but most un wisely; and, unfortunately for the country, they haul tended to provoke more excitement even than the measure of Reform itself. He viewed with the utmost anxiety the consequences which would resmilt,from this measure. He admitted that there was no alternative, after the Ministers had placed the country in such a situation, save that of passing the Reform Bill, at the expense of the authority of the House of Peers, and of all future good Government ; and he feared much that Government would in future be carried on by means of, and in accordance with, mere popu lar clamour. Them was a remark in a recent publication, " 1 - ) lltruont's Souvenirs de Mirabeau," which was well tle• serving the attention of the Ministry, namely, that Go vernments ought to well consider before they debate popul ar principles, lest the people should be raised to make a state of exc i tement and expectation which would it imp oss ibl e to limit their progress to the point ori ginally sough t.—(Hear, hear.) He feared that Ministers I , l l, tgi o omthereaf ter resort to the same expedient, to carry any 'Were to rte measur e . If the question of the Corn Laws be mooted, the same consequences would probably ensue. The amp reasoning would be made to apply, and the same insult would be repeated. They would be told then, as they Were told question Wass Whether tol n the. present occasion, that the Leoverpowered, me independence of the House of Lords was to jeoparti(low?ered, or time tranquillity of the country pot i n case, it would in otherys If it did not happen in that • Declarations would be made calculated to excite the people, and then they would he told that for that exciteement the only remedy would be again to violate the independence of the Peers.—(Hear, har.) The Noble Lord (Milton) had declared that in came Government repfulesedoftothpeass the Reform Bill, lie would set the exam to pay taxes. What ! if a man in the situationrefusint refusing to Noble Lord, blessed with rank and affluence, shooufld refuse the pay ment of taxes, on account of some grievance which he im agines toe of sufficient ti consequence t o justify his con - duct—if he refused the payment of taxes, what right ha , he to enforc e use payment of any other demand on who think perli a parte a may have as good a grievance as the Noble Lo a a P t m o th . e y possible jtistify their refusal ?—(H eaa , How was it hear.) that if the Government of any county could be maintained, of high station, men known to society as supporters oifuhei's Majesty's Government, held such principles as these"-T(Hear.) If they made decla rations such as these deka:orations, by which the bonds of society would be bro y oatsunder, and all the obliga lions of the law set entirel make their own estimate of their own grievances, and take the remedy into their own hands.—(Hear, hear to though h e o pp ose d the Bill before r his o wn part, al it was passed— liough e considered it a cry i ng grieean cest--yet he should Ay implicit obodience when it became law. He should not re wt to any such measures as those contemplate] by tht 't - ohle Lord, and he heartily wished the predictions of himself ,nd friends would titri ma' ft, he incorrect. They wert n the eve of a perilous experiment, and it could not le !enied that it was the duty of the Executive C;overnmen• a diminish the extent of th- (linger as much as possMe \lnch depended on the first general election under thi ; and he hoped ti, election would not be proceeded -o until they had first passed those accompanying measures ')y which the dangers of the change might be in some de gree guarded against. There was a clause in the Bill giving the Government the power of dissolving Parlii tnent without the previous passing of these measures. Btit this was done in order to provide against the demise of the Crown. He trusted, therefore, that the Boundary Bit would be duly pissed, and that the votes would be duly registered. Indeed, if it were otherw's', never would a ,!reater fraud have been committed on Parliament, since he and many other Members had consented to the passing of the Bill on that expre's understanding. It would be ex ceedingly dangerous, in the present state of excitement, to cal into action the new right of voting, without the passing of these previous checks. Indeed, in the present state of the country, he thought it would be productive of the most serious calamities. The character of all future measures depended on the character of the new Parliament. Let the Noble Lord take the course which he might think most conducive to the speedy passing of those measures, and he assured him that no one on that side of the House would throw any factious obstacle in his way. Above all, he felt it his duty to call the attention of Lis Majesty's Government to the continued existence of these Political Associations. It was quite cleat that the Unions had no intention of dissolving ; they intended to continue their existence for the purpose of extorting further advantages. He had heard it said that this Bill was to be accepted as a final and satisfactory measure. The Hon. Gentleman behind him (Mr. Hume), the Member for the metropolitan county, had himself said the same thing; yet he declared only a few nights back, in reference to the 101. franchise, that, give him but that and he would soon extort the 5/. —(Hear, hear.) This was the principle on which the Political Unions proceeded. What man interested in the well-being of the country could advocate the existence of these Political Associations, whose object and desire was to control the right of voting. He understood that there was no intention on the part of Government to interfere with these Political Unions; but they expressed their con fident hope in the good sense of the people for their sup pression. But if the Political Unions made their sittings permanent, if they obtained the control over the right of voting conferred by the Bill—whatever Hon. Gentlemen might think of the form of society undar which we had lived for the last fifty years—i❑ his opinion there was no party in the State whose domination could be so intolerable as that which was to come. He hoped that his Ma jesty's Government would have sufficient confidence in themselves—but he hoped they would have sufficient con fidence in the good sense of the people of England—and if they were disappointed in their expectations of that good sense, he hoped they would have sufficient confidence in l i the good sense of the Legislature and the strength of the constitutional powers, to vindicate the authority of the law, and rescue them from the wretched and degraded tyranny ender which they would otherwise be compelled to live.—( Cheers front the Opposition.) By the King's Speech, made at the opening of the Session, the ministers were in some measure pledged to this. Iu this Speech his Majesty says, " Sincerely attached to our free Consti tution, I never can sanction any interference with the le gitimate exercise of those rights which secure to my people the privilege of discussing and making known their griev ances ; but in respecting these rights, it is also my duty to prevent combinations, under whatever pretext, which in their form and character are incompatible with all re gular government, and are equally opposed to the spirit and to the provisions of the law; and I know that I shall not appeal in vain to my faithful subjects, to second my determined resolution to repress all illegal proceedings, by which the peace and security of my dominions may be endangered." They were, then, about to give their final assent to that Bill which was said to be the chief cause and justification of Political Unions. With the cause, then, the effect ought also to cease ; and he would call upon the House to consider, before the separation of this Parliament, the propriety of redeeming the pledges placed in the mouth of his Majesty's Ministers, and to put an end to the proceedings, the continuance of which, under any form, are inconsistent with all good government, and op posed alike to the provisions and spirit of the law, and to give that protection to property and liberty which is quite incompatible with the continuance of those Associ ations.—(Cheers.) Mr. STANLEY and Lord MILTON rose together, hut the former gave way. Lord MILTON said, that after the allusions made to him by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and subse quently by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt himself bound to make some observations in reply. It was perhaps a common failing of humanity to magnify the importance of an existing crisis. He did not mean to deny the state ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, nor should he retract that statement.—(Hear.) It had been the opi nion of persons most deeply read in the Constitution of this country, and in the philosophy of Government itself, that questions may arise when individuals are no longer hound by the strict letter of the law.—(Cheers.) It was admitted that such a question might arise, and that a man might, under such circumstances, act in violation of the otherwise established principles of the law. It was true, that persons were apt to magnify the importance of the existing crisis; but in his opinion such a crisis would then arrive, which ought to be resisted hy means which be should not call legal, because the case was beyond the pale of law. If that principle was not admitted, then the House of Brunswick sat upon the throne of these realms contrary to law.—(Loud cries of Hear.) What was the Revolution of I6SS but a violation of law? Under these extraordinary circumstances, men act according to the dictates of their own conscience, according to the necessity the case, and not according to the strict rules of law. He hoped that crisis had now passed away. The question was one of a peculiar nature, and though he did not deny the strict right of the House of Lords to interfere with it, he consider e d such interferenc e very imprudent.—( Hear.) They ought to have exercised the greatest delicacy not to wards that House merely, but towards the people at large. As a body, th e H ouseo f L ords were not, in his opinion, 'in terested in the question, though many individuals of that House were, as borough proprietors, most materially jute rested.—(Hear, h ear .) [H e t h en proceeded to enter into an analysis of the votes of the Peers, by which it appeared that of tile Peers created prior to the accesisi on of Geo. IJI. the great majority was in favour of the kill.] Since that time and prior to 1800, the Peers for and against were nearly equal ; so that the majority was composed prin cipally of the clerical and representative Peers, Under those circumstances he considered the Ministry quite jus tifitd in the advice which they gave the Crown.—(Cheers.) Mr. STANLEY was glad he had given way to his No ble Friend, though he deeply regretted some of the senti ments which he had expressed, and differed from them as widely as it was possible for one man to differ from ano ther.—(Hear, hear.) Discussions on abstract questions ought to be particularly avoided by the House of Commons —(Hear.) If there was one subject which was more in tricate than another, and which it was impossible to bring under discussion as an abstract question, it was the point at which resistance became justifiable, and when men be came absolved from all the obligations of law.—(Hear.) With tegard to the House of Lords, he could not admit that they ought not to have interfered, more especially on a question on which the balance of the different powers in the State so naturally depended ; and if he atireed with the Right Hon. Baronet in his expression of regret at the difference of opinion which existed between the two Houses, he should not be precluded from saying that the difference arose on such a point as rendered justifiable and necessary the exercise of an equally constitutional power —another branch of the Legislature —to restare the balance between the two parties in the nation.—(Cheers.) He was not now going to argue the rights of the House of Lords ; they were fully admitted ; but it did not, there fore, follow that they were to defeat and render nu gatory the powers of the other branch of the Legisla ture. If they were, then we should no longer be living under a mixed Government, being under the stern rule of an oligarchy.—(Loud cheers.)—At that rate, it would be in the power of a band of Peers, by uniting together, to obstruct the wl,ole working of the Constitution, and to usurp the powers of the King and the Commons.— (Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said t h at if, after the passing of this Bid, and in consequence of its passing, any person should be found so degraded as to accept what had heretofore been considered an honour, and a gracious distinction on the part of the Sovereign, he should mark those men—He (with peculiar emphasis, which drew down loud cheers)--he should point out those per sons, as persons with whom he should not sit—as persons deserving his censure.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Sir E. SUGDEN made use of some strong expressions of denial. Mr. STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman contradicts lee, and in no very courteous manner; but— Sir E. SUGDEN asserted, in as strong a manner as he• possibly could, that he had never made use of any such expressions. Mr. STANLEY repeated that apparently no terms could be used by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman whirl, could sufficiently mark the strong feeling of reprobation which he attached to those persons who might aceep' uch honour.—(Loud cheers.) indeed he expressed him self in a very short and pretty sentence.—(Hear, hear.) fie should like to know how long the Learned Gentle man's veto on the ex , rcise of the prerogative of the Crown was to continue.—(Loud cheers.) He would suppose hat the people had endured the sickening suspense of their Hog deferred hopes to the utmost limit of which human endurance was capable ; and then he would ask the Hon. and Learned Gent!eman opposite, and he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, how much longer they thought the exercise of the Royal Prerogative ought to be deferred ? Rut, to pass from topics of that nature to others of graver import, be would come to the charge preferred against the Government by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, vhieh amounted to nothing less than this—that they hid wen guilty of promoting the run for gold which had been nade against the Bank, and the withdrawal of deposits ruin the savings -banks. He could scarcely believe it ,ossible that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant to onvey that the Government were instrumental in pro tieing those effects. Sir E. B. SUGDEN—I stated these occurrences as the consequences of their actions. Mr. STANLEY—The consequences of their actions ! Now, he would contend that the Hon. and Learned Gen leman had made it a matter of grave charge against them, though he was now pleased to soften down the expression into " the consequences of their actions." The fact was, that, lnring the time when the present Administration was out of power and the country full of apprehension that the lion. and Learned Gentleman, the Right Hon. Baronet and their friends might come into office, the people of the country thought that their money was not safe, and hence the run upon the Bank for gold—(Cheers)—and did not both the Hon. Gentleman and the Right Hon. Baronet know that the events to which he was alluding, not only produced the run upon the Bank of England and upon the Savings'-Banks, but also greatly depreciated English as well as foreign Government Securities? Did not the apprehension that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite might come into power, and the expectation of a generai war consequent upon that apprehension, produce a depre• ciation which for a long time past had not been equalled? If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman doubted that, he might bring in a Bill for the purpose of preventing in fu ture the depreciation of public securities through the ope ration of public events. How could it for a moment be imagined that an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, possess ing the experience which belongs to him (Sir E. B. Sug den), could suppose that the present Ministers of the Crown were to blame for that decline in the value of the public funds which arose out of causes over which they could not by possibility exercise any control ? Sir E. B. SUGDEN—I never said any such thing. Mr. STANLEY—When the Hon. and Learned Gen- tleman can prove that those things could not and ought not to affect the public credit, then, and not before, could he with any show of justice or consistency make the charge which he preferred against his Majesty's Govern ment. Sir E. B. SUGDEN again denied the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman.—(Cries of " Order, order.") Mr. STANLEY—The Hon. and Learned Gentleman would have an opportunity of explaining when he (Mr. Stanley) had concluded the few observations with which he meant to trouble the House. The Right Hon. Baronet had referred to some newspapers, and endeavoured t) affix the same responsibility upon Government with re spect to them, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had sought to establish with respect to the rise or fall in the public securities. Ile bad alluded to a particular paper, and no doubt it was a journal which often obtained infor mation previously known to only a few; but could such a fact warrant the assertion, that that newspaper spoke the sentiments of the Government, even though it might ob tain its information from persons connected with the Go vernment ? If, however, there was one paper more than another which was distinguished for hostility to his Noble Friend at the head of the Government, that was the publication in question. For what might appear in that paper, it was rather hard to hold the Government of the country responsible, when the fact was not to be disputed that so far from giving efficient support to the measures of Government, it was marked by the most decided and rarely ceasing hostility to the head of that Government. —(Cheers.) He would now notice some other charges which had been brought against other members of his ' Majesty's Government. His Noble Friend near him had been charged with having vindicated the display of the tricolour flag in the presence of the Sovereign dur ing the excitement, as it was alleged, which arose out of the Reform Bill. A short reference to facts would place that accusation on its true footing. In the first place, the day on which the exhibition was said to have taken place was in the latter end of the month of November, in the year 1830 ; and it was not for three months afterwards—namely, on the Ist of March, 1831—that the Reform Bill was introduced. It was therefore impos sible to establish any connexion between the two events. There remained, however, one other fact to lie mentioned, which he had just learned from an Hon. Friend near him, which was, that there was no tricolour flag in the case at all—(Loud cheers)—but, on the assumption that there had been, his Noble Friend treated its display in the only way in which, with any justice, it could be treated—not as an insult to the Sovereign, but very much to the con trary, as regarded any constitutional Alonarch. It was merely intended as an expression of the ligitiznate admira tion shared by the whole British people—an admiration not at the time disclaimed by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite—of the noble struggle successfully maintained by a great people against an oppressive and unendurable ty ranny.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend, on the occasion to which he was alluding, had truly told them that the people of England were not democratic—that they knew the value of the Constitution which they possessed, and that to call them the advocates of democracy was to pro nounce upon them one of the grossest calumnies that could be uttered against the people of England. It could not be forgotten that at the time of the overthrow of the late French Government, it was universally felt throughout England that the then Administration of this country were favourable to the ancient order of things, and ad verse to the new. With that imputation resting on cheat they abandoned office. He did not wish to re criminate ; but he could not, when the Right Honour. able Baronet talked of letting loose a torrent, re frain from reminding the House, that those who now used this language in censure and condemnation had them selves the power, which they declined to exercise, of per mitting those waters to flow off in single and separate ch :lane's, one by one ; instead of which they restrained and dammed them up, till, by becoming united, they formed one vast and resistless current. Then, when they felt the ►wound on which they stood tottering beneath them, they secured their own escape, and left to another set of workmen to throw wide those flood-gates which they had neither the power to keep closed, nor the courage to open in due time.—(Cheers. ) Was Reform the only source which they dammed up ? Had it not been the practice of the Right Hon. and Hon. Gentlemen who now occupied seats on the other side of the House, from the moment they first attained power, to unite together as a party to keep all close as long as they possibly could ? In that they acted consistently, and upon that principle they acted un til they could act no longer. Would any man tell him that a calm inquiry into the state of the Church property might not have been attended with the most beneficial results, had it been entered upon some ten, twelve, or fifteen years age ? He, for one, admitted that it might have been be neficial.—(Cheers from Sir R. Peel.) Did the Right Hon. Baronet also admit that truth ? Sir R. PEEL—I nearly remember your speech. Mr. STANLEY said he object e d t o th e an i mu s which appeared to have governed their proceedings. All that lie said on the occasion to which the Right Honourable Bart. alluded was, that he was anxious for inquiry, and that any proposition for the appointment of a Committee or Com mission should have his full snpport ; but there was ri:r disposition towards i nqu i ry on t h e part o f hi s M a j es ty s Government of that day ;—their wish evidently was to let everything alone—" Don't stir it," was their motto ; and it was thus that in 1823, they introduced upon the subject of slavery a set of resolutions, the sole object of which was to preserv e thi ngs i n t h e con di t i on i n which they had found them—their rule at all times appeared to be to pnt off the evil day as long as possible. It was then in the abuses which had crept into our representative system—it was not alone in our Church establishment — it was not alone in our foreign policy, but in every branch and department of our public affairs, that they had la boured, and laboured successfully, to keep off the day of reckoning. Hence, then, were the present Administration left to deal with an accumulation of difficulties for which they were solely indebted to their predecessors. He fully admitted that he viewed with regret the circumstances which hail taken place in the other House of Parliament ; but the advisers of the Crown had no alternative. It had been alleged on the other side, that before the se cond reading they ought to have been prepared with their creation of Peers : that would surely not have been agree able to the principles upon which they had at all times acted ; they felt it to be their duty to put off to the last moment a measure towards which they felt some repug nance—they felt that it would be their duty to put it off until no atrernative should be left them ; fur what would be the situation in which they must stand before the country, if, after the creation of Peers, they were still not able to carry the Bill ? So long as a hope remained to them, they refrained from urging their advice for a creation of Peers; but when it became evident, from the success of a motion made in the Committee in the other House, that the conduct of the Bill would fall into other hands, and those the most adverse to the measure, or at best but half upporters of it, could any reasonable man doubt the cours. which they ought to pursue ? Was there a man of sane mind in the whole country who entertained a rational doubt as to what were the intentions of the Noble Lords Ind Right Hon. Gentlemen who had, up to that time, as well as at the present moment, stood forward as the most strenuous opponents of the measure? Had the present Government of the King taken any other course than that which they had pursued, nothing could be more indispu table than that they would have forfeited the confidence of 'he country, as well as betrayed the trust reposed in them their Sovereign. The Right Hon. Gentleman then irneeeded to argue the importance of proceeding in the l.ords' Committee in the order of the clauses exactly as the Bill had been sent tip from the Commons, and to defend himself from the imputation of having at any time ex pressed opinions of a contrary tendency; anything that 'night seem to bear an interpretation of that kind could only he founded upon a confusion of ideas respecting the two different speeches which he had delivered on the subject of Reform ; but then they had reference to two separate Bills—one of which made it indispensable that the Mem bers of the House of Commons should be changed —th e other, that they should he unchanged, and that made the difference between the two measures, which rendered it important that there should be no departure from the ori ginal order of proceeding. He next adverted to the de claration of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that he re ceived the Reform Bill as one important instalment of the sum of enfranchisement due to the people of England. He regretted that such were thy sentiments of that Hon. Member. His own views were altogether different; he received the present measure of Reform as a liquidation in full of all that the people had a right to expect, for so extensive a measure would certainly not have been intro duced by the present Government had they not regarded it as a final measure. He acknowledged with satisfaction the declaration that no material opposition would be offered to the Boundaries Bill, for he deemed it of great import ance that that measure should come into full operation before Parliament was dissolved, so that, as a whole, that great measure might be rendered complete, to which he looked as the means of establishing the authority of Par liament, the Prerogatives of the Crown, and the liberties of the people.—(Cheers.) Sir R. PEEL denied that be had ever recommended the creation of Peers antecedently to the second reading of the Bill. He also stated that that Commission had been appointed to inquire into the state of Church property; and in consequence of their Report the Unions had been dissolved, and the Tithe Composition Act introduced. Mr. CHOKER thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for his dissent from the principles laid down by the Noble Lord near him, and for the denial he hail given to the hopes of the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He also thanked him for the support be bad promised against further innovation—for the aid he had promised to stem that torrent which he (Mr. C.) believed to be irresistible. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assured them that all alarm of an extension of the democratic principle among the people was vain and unfounded ; and maintained that the people were not democratically but monarchically in clined. He (Mr. Croker) certainly believed firmly that democracy was on the surface rather than that it pene trated into the substance of public opinion. But then, on the other hand, he believed that the class of the people who had been the loudest advocates for the Bill, those who composed the Political Unions—those who had outraged the law and menaced the Government, were united in two great objects—Reform and degeneracy. He asked Hon. Members who doubted this, whether they had read the placards on the walls—whether they had read the resolu tions which the different Political Unions had promulgated —and if so, whether they could deny that the wildest dreams of democracy were not mixed up with the wishes for Reform which the individuals to whom he alluded had expressed? The sacred persons of the Royal Family, the very existence of the Crown itself, had been implicated in the popular discussions on Reform. He begged not to be mis understood. He was far from saying that there was no friend of Reform who slid not desire the overthrow of the existing Constitution. It was impossible that he could say so, after hearing the speech which the Right Hon. Gen tleman had just made ; it was impossible that the could say so when he saw on the other side of the House so many persons who owed their honours and estates to that consti. tution. But what he did say was, that the most active and powerful supporters of Reform out of doors carried their principles to an extent which must terminate in the subyersion of Monarchy, and the establishment of a pure democracy on its ruins. There was no part of the conduct of his Majesty's present Government which he more deeply lamented than their conduct towards the Po litical Unions. Nor was that conduct free from the marks of duplicity, as well as of neglect of duty. They might for a time check the eruptions of those volcanic Unions, but he very much feared that the earthquake would be stifled only for a time, and that eventually Mo narchy in this country would totter to its fall. Even at the present moment the Political Unions, by the mere change of a word, were about to become legally organised. They were about to call themselves Electoral Unions, and to assume the functions of cont:uctors of elections through out the country; pointing out to the voters of popular places the persons whom they thought best qualified to sit in the House of Commons. And this system was to last for ever. L would be a perpetual circle of political excitement. Was it too much to believe that these Unions would succeed in obtaining a bona fide and permanent in fluence over the Government of the country ? Let those who thought so recollect what occurred in France at the period of the Revolution ; and recollect the division of Paris into electoral sections, which, having set them selves above all law, first controlled the Government, and in a short time destroyed it. lie would on this subject appeal to an authority which he supposed would he allowed to be intitled to respect by all who admired high public character obtained in the establishment of national inde pendence, but which authority pointed out the dangers which might beset constituted order even in a refublie. The great Washington, in the year )796, when, as it were, taking leave of the American nation as a public man wrote a letter, in which he warned his countrymen of the great danger to which even a popular state was liable front political associations. Having observed that when a Go vernment was once established, it was: the duty of every individual to obey it, Washington thus proceeded - • " • ' " All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combi nations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal ten dency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force--to put in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community ; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans, digested by common councils, and modified by mutual interests. However combinations or associations of the above description may, now and then, answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become po tent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people, and to usurp for themselves the reins of Government ; destroying afterwards the very enemies which have lifted them to unjust dominion." The whole letter was indeed a lesson of practical wis dom ; and he wished his Majesty's Ministers, if not too late, would apply themselves to the study of it. Up to the present period England had been the anchor of the social security of Europe. Equally exposed to the deluge of demo cracy during the existence of Republicanism in France, and to the deluge of despotism when Buonaparte obtained supreme authority in that country, the hopes of social order had been preserved ill England as in an ark, until both those dangers had subsided. But that which his Majesty's present Government was about to do,was to con vert that ark into a fireship. All who contemplated what was passing in Belgium, in Holland, in Portugal, in Spain, in Russia, must know that the people of those countries were looking with intense anxiety to England.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Republican or Movement party through. out Europe looked on the passing the Reform Bill as a great advance, and, like the Hon. Member for Middlesex, hailed it as the precursor of a greater. Looking, there fore, not only at ourselves, but at the other nations of Europe, was it p oss ibl e to b e li eve t h at if those nations became democracies, we could maintain the - monarchy, the aristocracy, and all the ancient and feudal institutions which we were accustomed to revere? Adverting to the Boundary Bill, he (Mr. Croker) observed, that although he should feel it his duty to state his objections to the way in which that Bill was to operate, it was not his intention to protract his remarks upon it, or to carry his opposition so far as to interpose any serious obstacle to the passing of the measure. Indeed, he considered the Reform Bill and the Boundary Bill as inseparable ; for, if the people of England were assembled for a general election after the Reform Bil l was passed, and before the Boundary Bill was passed, and therefore before it was determined who had the right of voting, the most disastrous consequences might be the result. He could not conclude with out solemnly declaring, that nothing which had occurred during the discussions on the measure and altered the opi nion which he entertained of it at the first moment of its introduction. H e believed that the Hon. Member for Middlesex was perfectly correc t i n hi s prognos ti cs , lie ' 'relieved that principles were afloat which it would be irn , Reign& to check. He believed that the Noble Lord and he Right Hon. Gentleman opposite were sincere in their lesire to put, as it were, a seal upon the bond ; but he dso believed that the words of the bond were so exten , ve that no seal would be effeetive ; and that, as the Hon. Member fir Middlesex had said, the Reform Bill vas but the commencement of a career of change. What had occurred since the original introduction of the Bill confirmed him in that apprehension. The first edition of the Rill had been received with approbation, even by the most violent Reformets. They had since had two suc cessive editions of it; each having a further and a further tendency to a democratic character.—(Cries of " No, ao.") That negation should not provoke him to enter further into the subject than to say that such was his opi iion. Indeed, the argument of the friends of the Bill had been—" See what your opposition comes to; the second Bill is worse than the first, and the third than the •econd." Seeing, therefore, that every alteration was in t democratic spirit, and seeing the prevalence of that spirt throughout Europe, be could not but apprehend the ultimate subversion of the Constitution, and the establishment first of a democracy, and then (in the due course of events) of a despotism ; and, after a sad, and he hoped not a bloody interval, the re •construc i ion of the admirable system so injuriously assailed. Colonel TORRENS thought that the apprehension which the Right Hon. Gentleman entertained from the prevalence of a democratic spirit was entirely groundless. The increase of knowledge among the people was a con servative principle that would effectually lead to the se curity of property and order. To whom were they about to give power? Not to an ignorant and illiterate, but to an intelligent and instructed people—to a people among whom knowledge was so diffused that they were perfectly sensible of the evils that must result from constant agita tion. Undoubtedly, he did not believe that the present Bill would be a permanent measure. He looked upon it as the means of obtaining a magnificent end—as the means of securing a good Government, a cheap Government, and the universal prosperity of the people. The Bill must he operative, or it would be valueless. If it were to be regarded only as a paper on the table, or as a record in the Statute-book, of what use would it be ? The people hailed it, because it would afford the means of equal taxa tion and of equal laws. It would tend to prevent the imposition of any taxes but such as were necessary, and the enactment of any laws but such as were beneficial.— Under the operation of the Bill the people would endeavour to render this country as prosperous as the United States of North America now were. Mr. PRAED, after briefly adverting to what had just fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Member, proceeded to observe, that when it was first insinuated in that House, and insinuated amidst incredulity and derision, that there were means by which the indisposition of the House of Lords towards the Bill might be counteracted, he had re mained silent. When that topic was renewed, he and the opponents of the Bill had again remained silent upon it; apprehensive that, by the agitation of the subject, the very evil which they apprehended might be created. But now, when all their caution and all their silence had proved inef fectual, they had at least this satisfaction, that although they could no longer avoid the crime, they were at liberty to denounce :the criminals. There was nothing now to withhold him from the declaration, that when history came to suns up the characters and acts of British states men, no blacker page would be found in the record than that which related to the proceedings that had led to the passing of this Bill. When the Noble Earl now at the head of his Majesty's Government came into office, it was under certain declarations ; one of which was, that the measure of Reform in the Commons House of Parliament, which in the heat, and perhaps, the rashness of youth, he had advocated, he was not prepared now to offer to the country ; and that he would not propose any measure cal culated to disturb the other estates of the realm. Now when the Noble Lord introduced such a Bill as this, it must have occurred to him that it could never be pressed without rousing such a resistance in the House of Peers and lae _ aristocracy, as must increase that disaffection o the lower towards the upper classes, which the Noble Earl professed it to be his intention to remove. On the motion for the second reading of the Bill in the other House, by what argument did the Noble Earl endeavour to induce that House to agree to that motion ? By observing, that whatever objections might exist to any of the details of the measure, those details could be altered only in the Committee. It was true that the Noble Earl admitted he should unequivocally object to those alterations ; but then he added, it was for the Committee, and not for him, to decide upon them. Now what was the impression produced, and evidently intended to be produced, by this statement ? It was evi dently made for the purpose of inducing the other House of Parliament to agree to the principle of the Bill, on the understanding that if they thought proper they might amend the details in Committee. The House of Lords, having gone into a Committee, did make certain altera tions in the arrangement of the Bill. Whether those al terations were justifiable or not, he would not stop to in quire. But if the Noble Earl, when be entered upon of fice, and when he gave those pledges to which he (Mr. Praed) had already adverted, had foreseen the course he subsequently thought proper to pursue, that Noble Earl had been guilty of the grossest perfidy.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He did not charge the Noble Earl with this per fidy. He spoke hypothetically. Nay, be was convinced that the Noble Earl did not originally contemplate the course which he had since taken, but that he had been dragged on, one step after another, by a power which he could not resist, by a power which he himself wished to put down, by a power which now menaced all the insti tutions of the country with destruction. The Hon. Mem ber, in alluding to the advice given to his Majesty respect ing a large creation of Peers, proceeded to say that the present Ministers attempted to justify such a gross abuse of the prerogative of the Crown, upon the plea of the importance of the occasion, but that hereafter any situa tion would be deemed sufficiently important to justify such a measure, by those whose political existence depended upon it. Air. HIJAIE remarked that the House had met for the purpose of considering the amendments to the Reform Bill, and the debate had hitherto been about every thing else. He professed that he was not able to understand the speeches of the Hon. Members below him. The. Hon. Member (Mr. Praed) had talked of a crime, and he had tb-nouncetl a m iminal ; he would be glad to know what was the crime, and who was the criminal ? He could not imagine—he did not understand what the Hon. Gen tleman meant, though he could compliment him on the solemn tone which he had assumed. Neither could he rout prehend what the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Croker) meant by democratic waves and the deluge of despotism. He differed, too, with the Hon. Member (Mr. Praed) that the account of this period would form a black page in our history ; he thought, on the contrary, that the de scription of the events of the late ten glorious days, and the glorious moral triumph of the people of England, would form the brightest page in our history. He de fended the conduct of the Ministers, and maintained that they deserved the confidence of the people, and accused the Right Hon. Gentleman and his friends for attempting to take the helm of Government, and shrinking from the danger. In opposition to the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), who had read the King's speech, and asked why Government had not, in conformity with his Ma jesty's Proclamation, put down the Political Unions, he contended that they were utterly undeserving of blame for not having done so. Talk (cried the Hon Member) of the King's Proclamation ! It was just worth what the ink and paper were worth.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He repeated this. No proclamation could in these days override the ltw. As to what had been urged re specting the Reform Bill as a final measure, he could only say that he would not give a pin for the Bill if they were to stop here. The object of the Bill was to get an honest House of Commons—he meant politically honest. From such a House they might expect those benefits which they could never Lope to attain from a House of Commons which did not represent the feelings of the people. He hoped the Bill would give satisfaction; he was ready to give it a fair trial; but if he found that it did not give a representation sufficiently popular, he would come forward and call for a diminution of the franchise to 51. or even a lower sum. Mr. PRAED expressed his wonder that the lion. Member for Middlesex, who was so clear in understand ing, and himself so perspicuous in expression, should not have been able to comprehend the very plain words which lie (Mr. Praed) had used. He then proceeded to state, in explanation, that the crime to which he had alluded, was the destructive extension of the House of Peers, and the criminal he denounced was the men who had advised that extension. For the rest, he hail only to repeat, that if at the time when the Noble Lord stated that in the event of the ether House coming into collision with a majority of the people, he was determined to stand or fall by his ol der, he entertained the idea of advising a measure which would extinguish that order, and of introducing a Bill o Reform wilder and more sweeping than the wildest theo ries of his youth, his conduct had been most base anti perfidious. Mr. CROKER observed, that since he had left offict nothing had occurred which afforded a pretext for an charge against him, of either participating in any attempt to seize the helm or of shrinking from danger. Mr. C. GRANT praised the temper in which the de bates on Reform had been hitherto conducted, and said it ust have gained the applause of the - nation on both l.rs of the House ; hut he rsgretted to sees that they had .w arrived at the period of deeenerating into personalities. he Hon. Member (Mr. Praed) talked of a crime, and de ,ounced a criminal. He asked the House, he should .) ask the country, what was the crime, and who was 'le criminal ?—( Loud cheers.) The criminal was Earl ;rey—(Loud cheers)—and the period .chosen to denounce in was that period of his political life when he had cal, A the Reform Bill—at the close of an existence of seater splendour than that of the greatest man in our istery. L e t hi m even b e suc h a criminal—letlam e ven e covered with such ignominy —what was the crime of hich the Noble Earl had been giti'ty ? It was thia-a hat be had carried the Reform Bill in its present state. What was Lis crime ? Why, that in a period of darkness and disaster, when half of England was in a state of is,. sorrection—when the men who held the helm had rip rioquished it in despair—when the people were arraying themselves against them—at that time when the voice of England summoned the Noble Eat I from his retirement and because then, and under such circumstances, he had the courage to obey the mandate of his Sovereign—because, and possessing the talent, he had had the moral courage incl the moral honesty to take office under certain pledges and because having so accepted office, he had been true to those pledges ; it was because of ail these things, that he was now accused of crime.—( Hoar, hear.) Had he beau false to those pledges, they would not now have heard it his " crime," far other would have been time sounds that would have been uttered about Wm. These, however, were the glorious crimes of which the Noble Earl had been guilty—that he had stood forward to save his country. and that he had redeemed the pledges he had given.---; (Hear, hear.) From the accusation of such crime., it must be confessed he could not defend himself.—(Hear; hear.) But then it seemed that the Noble Lord had been guilty of perfidy—what was the perfidy of which he was accused? It was, that in the House of Lords he Lad had the monstrous folly to declare that he thought the Reform Bill necessary to the peace and tranquillity of the country, to the prosperity of the people, and to the se s (unity of the Throne ; and that having that belief, he Was prepared to stand or fall by that measure, and to use. every effort to secure its adoptioM That was the accusa tion against him ; and further, that having found he was . ; unable to carry it, be had relinquished office, which might: have charms for others, but had none for him if it waia only to be preserved at the expense of not perform ing the promises he had made.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Then they were told that the opposition in the House of Lords did not affect anything but the details of the Bill. Details, indeed; if they were only details that Could be of no consequence, why was there so much importance attached to getting rid of them ?—(Hear.) He would tell the House what the other side would have rejoiced to see. They would have rejoiced to see those details one by one conceded, till disfranchisement ceasing to be a lead ing principle of the Bill, had become only a sequel and corollary to it ; and when it had become so, it might have been admitted only as an act of special grace and favour. —(Hear, hear.) Day by day they would have the Noble Earl and his Government concede the true prisciples of the Bill, though disguised under the name of details, until, the Bill would have been no longer an advantage to tht.‘ people, but an advantage gained over them.—(Hear.)— They would have had these small impel ceptible concessions hourly repeated, till the Government would have mound themselves in a totally new sphere, insulted by those who had dragged them through those calamities, and justly condemned by that people, whose honour, honesty, and high faith had reposed on their sense of duty, and on the purity of their conscientious discharge of that (Cheers.) For the mere mockery of conciliation, they were desired to enjoy the happiness of sacrificing the in terests of Englishmen, and were now condemned for not having done so. Thank God, from that happiness they had been preserved.—(Cheers.) Yet, for having beets so preserved, they were now to be charged with crime. From that charge they appealed, and he felt that they should, appeal successfully to their country and their conscience,. Colonel SIBTHORPE observed, that the lion. Mem bers on the opposite side of the House spoke as if they alone bad acted from conscientious motives, an assumption which he begged leave to deny ; for those who opposed the Bill had, be was sure, been actuated only by the most con scientious feelings. He doubted even whether. Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House were not a little disappointed at the Bill having passed as it had done through the House of Peers ; and whether the Right Hort. Gentleman did not regret that he was not nsw Earl o` Inverness, ins'ead of Member for the county—(A laugh) —and whether the Hon. Member was not disappointed at not being Marquess of Marylebone ! and even the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, would not haves had quite so long a face if he had now been flourishing its the ether House. This Bill was not a final tneasure. The Hon. Member for Middlesex declared that he was not satisfied with it, but wished Reform to go further ; and there was little doubt that the Hon. and Learned Meant). e for Kerry would be glad to see the House of Lords lowered and trampled on. He was sure that if they ease them, according to the old saying, rope ennuaih, they would hang themselves—not that he wished to see the Noble Lord opposite (Althorp) suspended, except from his office. --(A laugh.) He had opposed this Bill throughout, because he thought it was not for the good of tie people; and if the Hon. Member for Middlesex brought in another Bill to remedy this, he should be willing to sit by rite Hon, Member's side and teach him, not how to destroy, but hot, to restore the Constitution. Sir R. INGLIS should not have spok4n, but for the observations which had recently fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, who, in one part of his speeen, had used the expression, " Dragged us through those calami ties." When he heard such expressions used, much as be esteemed his Right Hon. Friend, and nauc: as he had esteemed him for years, he must get up and observe upon them. To whom were these expressions applied ? Did his Right Hon. Frig nd mean that the Government of the Duke of Wellington, or that of Mr, Canning, or that of Lord Liverpool had dragged them through these cal Mai ties ? For if he meant any or all of these Governments,, his Right Hon. Friend was the last man who should de nounce their acts, since for those acts he was responsible.; as he had formed part of all those Governments. With respect to the Bill itself, it was only regarded as the be.; ginning of more serious changes. It was regarded as as means, and not an end—and such was the opinion which in private had been avowed to him by an Hon.and Learned Friend of his. He hoped that opinion would be expressed as he knew it was felt in that House, and then they woull see what he stated was perfectly correct. He was sorry to be obliged to believe this Bill had put an end to the Constitution. When the Bill had passed the House of Commons, it was spoken of as a Bill that must pass the House of Lords, who were to he allowed no deliberative! voice upon it ; and now that it had passed the Howe of, Lords, he observed in a paper of the day the remark that, " only a form" remained to make it law—in other words., that the assent of the Sovereign, which he had alway, looked upon as of as great importance as that of either of, the two branches of the Legislature, was a mere form—. He again expressed his anticipations of evil from the nu 'a.' sure. Mr. C. GRANT thought that the House wouh) agrvt, with him that the Hon. Baronet had most unjustly given to the words he had tittered, a meaning that it was clew they were ;never intended to hear—and had fastened on that a charge for which there was no pretence. .The Hon. Baronet had said that he (Mr. C. Grout) had cast imputations upon former Governments, and had spoken of them as dragging them through calamities. At first be had. hardly recollected having used the words, for if they had escaped him it was in the heat cf debate ; hut as far as he could bring back the circumstances to his mind, he had, used them after speaking of the situation in which the. present Government would have been left, had they allowed. themselves to yield up every principle of the Reform Bill under the name of conceding unimportant details.—(Hear e hear.) In that sense alone he had used them.—(Hear,. hear.) He appealed to the House, and even to the Hon. Baronet himself, whether, that being the case, he had not, been subjected to a most unjust aspersion ? He had not made any charges whatever against former Governments.. On the subject of Reform he knew—and never hail hesitated to avow it—(Hear, hear)— that he had changed his opinion; he had changed it because of the changed circumstances of the times, and of the advance of knowledge of every kind among the people; but he had never for a woment, throughout these debates,. uttered the remotest aspersions on those who now held those opinions which he had formerly entertained. His change of opinion was not recent. He had stated it at the time of the East Rettord question, full two years ago, and had then said, that unless the motion then made was carried, greater concessions must be granti:ll.—( Hear, hear.), But for entertaining and avowing that opinionhemseilgalitcvhoaveerenninteernetdlir, hear)—if e e e u prior ie tote if formation of tee pre he would hive done it with any degree of surrender of that principle. Sir R. INGLIS should not 'have itti4tif rl th.e charge God he not believed that his Right Hon. .Friendliiiii,ipsd and applied the expression as he stated, alicit'O one would be more rejoiced than himself to . find that his, ight lion. Friend had not subjected himself to the charge. Mr. FANE made seine observations which were at first inaudible in the gallery on account of the noise in tha House. He then said that this ail removed their neigh bour's landmarks. They ought to remember, the " cursed is he who removes his neighbour's landmarks,"