The Sun. — London, England, 1847-03-16 00:00:00

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The chairman as I , lil t . hat he hoped the company would not be considered exppeuritt,ing dssejoirn‘g been called together out of o ppositton to -• It had been called togeirer tor the purpose a stop to the shameful and ruinous course of „ir:mire now going on on the part of the directors. 3r t hear.) lie proposed, on a late occasion, that sot sor arrangetnents should be come to between th e two a position had nie 3 by which they should be united. That p o vo not been acceded to, notwithstanding th. that opi n i ons w hi c h we re at one time entertainer eti l v a l t result having been brought about. He had re loeftter's 13rDornthe the part of the committee, t•ix hundr, Brighton shareholders in favour abaies unien uf the two companies, and representi4 to the value of 900 000/. and that morning thei' r 'ffittee h a d recav, d upwards of 1,100 letters from i h nlnt e outh-I , ;astern mp lay i favour of an arrange betwe n Vie two cowponies. Those who high any attention to the subject, considering at the t in , the state of the money market, had c)me Io p a e .. !:onclusi on that the best course would be to petition t til ' i ' i l atnent to prevent any further progress in t he ex tl ou "" 8 now pending before the Committe es of th• Committees of Commons.—(Cheers.) lie thought if the ez tAftninittees had been united, a most, wastetu strP:nditure would have been saved in the con sa, e llen of the two lines, whch had received th. 14 4011 of Parliament last session, between Tun ge and Hastings, and which would whet i..structed be most formidable rivals to each other, ane. E",,,9leir rivalry would injure the interests of the share ] 'fl'uers,—(Cheers.) At the same lime ho must beg f' v e to say, that there had been a few letters received boo large shareholders expressing an opinion advert. , No amalgamation between the two companies. The h e alittee had prepared a number of resolutions, which take the to read to the meeting, and afterwards to t he opinion of the meeting on t he same. 6 . sier,!r L. GOLDSSIID theugnt that if a motion with re k „ ? tto the postponement of the question should he e ed to, it would be unnecessary to enter into an) Rry discussion as to the conduct of either of the tl :Panies concerned. Ile therefore called upon the to postpone the consideration of the question the, extensions t ill a nother year. He called upon th. meeting, as friends to their country, to the poor, and to the m i de , elves, to consent to the postponement of the con 4, , r ation of the proposed extensions t ill another y eas would move that the meeting should petition Par liament to p os tpone the consideration of the sch eme ; T r i e the Committees till another y ear. The CHAIRMAN said that the Hon. Gentleman h ad tntle th e IPated the resolutions which he purp osed to read to Meeting. the EDE then read a series of resolutions regretting the contest which was now being car r i ed on betwees ad r ival companies, and recommending that measures be ePted ca l cu l ate d at once to put a stop to the western ex p e nditure which must result from that contest, and 4 e()in elending the meeting to adopt a p etition to l.'arlia tse : i t: praying the House to postpone the co nsideration e various lines proposed by either company. Th ej CHAIRMAN then said that a petitio n to the House for C ommons had been prepared, wh i c h would be ready 4 Slgnature at the close of the meeting. 1/ 0 SHARE HO LDER said that the Comm ittees of the ilse of Commons invariably re fused to receive the P e titions of the shareholders, on the ground that the) 4- ere represented by the directors, who were supposed to ah posseision of information which the body of the ~reholdera did not possess. co he CHAIRMAN said that the petition prepared by the e oltnittee did not cast the slightest reflection upon the unbiassed of the company. The committee were perfectly :biassed in their opinion towards either company; the) to of opinion that it would be absurd and ridiculoio ,waate the money of the shareholders in a c ontest be tween the t wo com panies. Sir. h W HALLEY t h en move d "That it is the opinion of 's meeting that the time will undoubte d ly arrive when "th e Brighton and South-Eastern Company would be come consolidated," and for this reason he thought it ad v isable that no further expenditure of the capital o either company should be expended in opposing each othe r . Mr. WILLTAMS seconded the resolution. , Mr. SAvaciE suggested that instead of the express ion will arrive" the resolution should be altered to " has arrived."—(Cries of " No, no.") Mr. LEVY said that he was one of the persons who Coalesced with Mr. Cash, and he believed that if th e resolutions were put to the meeting they would, meet the sanction of all present. But ont thing he must add, the committee had expended about 2001., and he hoped that, as Englishmen and gentlemen, they would not allow the burden to fall upon a few indi viduals.—(Laughter and cheers.) Mr. P. A. TAYLOR said that he had anticipated that the question they had met to discuss was one of some fair and equitable arrangement between the companies, and looking to the resolutions placed by Mr. Cash in the hands of the directors at the meetings of either company nom„ time before, he conceived that the time had already come for the union between the two lin e s. lie trusted that th e o bj ect b e f ore them would be limited, therefore, to the one important inquiry of amalgamation. H e did not see th at it was necessary to stop the whole of the proceeding se i n Parliament, further than to chec k an y 'SS ex enditure. arising from a contest in which on e the Les would suffer, and in which they (the Ah CarOlolder s ) w ould suffer also. The speaker concluded moving an amendment, that the word " has" be sub stituted for " will," in the first resolution. Sir GOLDSMID addressed the meeting sginst the amendment. Mr. WisnAw was in favour of the original resolution. The amendment and original resolution having been lit from the chair, the latt er was declared carried by a la rge majority. The second resolution, expressive of the regret of the meeting; that terms of arrangement had not been agreed I b l l'°n by th e directors of the two comp anies, was moved Y Mr. THOMPSON, seconded, and carried. Mr•WtsuAw proposed the third resoluti on " That mea ,,,res be adopted to stay the contest bet ween the com r ,-" ani, 6 . , 5 Mr. EAST seconded it. Mr. JENNINGS thought this resolution expressed an undue interference with the proceedings of the directors, 'sPeeially as the s hareholders had not had sufficient data Ott Which to ground an opinion. „ Mr. P. A. TAYLOR objc•ett-d to the resolutio n, because t he shareholders had not bee n a pp rised that this course , "qiid be proceeded with, and h e moved an amendment. ei That at this titre' it is not expedient to stop the pro dtngs of the companies before Parliament." Mr. CoLvitAN seconded the amendment. In answer to certain questions, The c okrit atax said, that the prep o nderance in favour of the ama l gam ation of the companies seemed to him to e manate from the Brighton shareholders;_ he (the chai rman ) h a d a greater int erest in the Brighton than in the South-Eastern Railway. Ur. Wisulw said that the present expenses, in con aNeuir. c of Parliamentary liatn e ntary altercation, was 5001. per day to Mr. JONAS LEVY, among other remarks, said that a Celebrated counsel c , uld not find time to reply until he received 2,0001. with his brief. Mr. WISHAW, having given way to gentlemen whs had before spoken, was anxious to say one word upon the amendment which he had seconded. He was morally e:rtain that not one influential shareholder in the South. Eastern Company was in favour of the asnalgamatioi With the Brighton Company. lie particularly refe rrer to Ma nc h es ter, Liverpool, and places further north. Mr. LEVY created considerable amusement by forcing tPon the attention of the last speaker letters from large Shareholders in the places mentioned, all in favour of a union of interests. The amendment was then put to the meeting and lost, aria the original resolution was carried. The fourth res olution, " That the present committee should have p ower to add to their number . fr . lna the shareholders of eit her company," wasalso cv,arsritehden read, The petition founded on the resolutions and it r ec eive I a considerable number of the signatures of al a •eho'deg; present. T. anks ham. , been voted to the Chairman, the mee : e.)arated. THE LOYAL SOCIETY. -011 aaturtlay night tht President of the ItJyal Society had his thir d conversazione. at his Lordship's residence in Piccadilly. As at the other reunions which have preceded it, the attendance of fellow , and members of the different literary and scientific bodie , Vas exceedingly numerous, for on this occasion not less than 60 0 individuals honoured the Noble Marquis with their corn 1/4"Y• Among the genera l visitors we observed his Excel encY Count Schemmelpennick, his Excellency Mr. Ban croft, the Duke of St. Alban's, the Earl De Grey, the Earl of Itanfurley, the Earl of Devon, the Earl of Sheffield, the Earl Grey, the Earl of Rose berr y , the Earl Somers, 1, Viscount "lahon, Viscount Courtenay, the Earl of Morley, Lord Dud ley Stuart, Lord Campbell ,- L ord BeaumoVi ce-Chancellor nt, Lord Wrottes of ley, Lord Byron, the Lord Mayor, the '.ngland, Count Valerian Krasinski, Chevalier Ribeiro, Che valier de Berardi, Lord John Manners, the Bishop of Nor- N,lleh, the Right Hon. Sir Robert Peel, Bart., M.P., the Hon. George Rose, the Right lion. Sir Frankla nd Lewis, the "e an of H ere ford, the Dean of N es tminater, the Right lion. Sir John Beckett, &c. POISONING AT BEDFORD.—BEDFORD, MARCH. 13. An inquest was concluded last night, at the General In - cause of her death. It appeared she had been in the service 14 George Sharp, Esq., of St. Peter's, but, being taken alarmingly ill, was removed to the institution above stated, w hen it was discovered that she was labouring under the erects of an irritant poison. The poor girl died on Thursday morning. On the inquest it wa s shown that the deceased was " ; 'e months gone in the fam il y wa y , and that she had pre v'ously borne a child , a young ma n named Howard , an iron founder of Bedford, being the father; and tha t the deceased had applied to one Newman, who had caused her to take in gin a large dose of cantharides, and that blr. Howard had requested Newman to set the girl to rights, and he would bc. a friend to him. The jury returned a verdict of Wilful blur der against Charles Newman , a nd he was fully s itecomd only for • Me deceased was a fine han dsome woman, ; • ' Years of age. A VETERAN MINISTER._ The Car lsruhe of the the Gth inst. announces the death of the Nestor of the "q.c- Baden statesmen, Baron Sigismond Von Reizenstein, Minister s ince the year 1809. The Baron was in his 82. d year. 1 ,, c 9. 11 the 4th instant the funeral of the unfortunate f . iims of the destruction of the Grand Ducal Theatre was , 40 _ n iminized at Carlsrhue. An immense crowd of the inhabi tants the victims a double line to the cemetery gates. The ashes . victims were enclosed in eight coffins, which were laid in tiTO tomb.. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, March 15. The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool •;aek at Five o'ehietc. LAW OF SETTLEMENT. The Earl ut presented a petition from Bradford against the law of settlement as passed last year. The Earl Sr. G ERNI AINS presented a petition from t'le Chairman and board of guardians of St. ,C er L MIS tgainst the lAw of settlement. They also ;prayed that he whole expense of supporting the poor might not fall upon St. Germans alone, but that an union sot emeLS might be established. JUVENILE OFFENDERS. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from nine teen justices of Hull, calling the attention of the House t., the presant state of the law as affecting juvenile offenders, and praying for a remedy. He would move hat the petition be referred to the Committee on Cri minal Law. POOR REMOVAL AC r. The NOBLE LORD presented a petition from Beverley against the Poor Removal Act ; also, a petition from Barbush, in the county of Wilts, to the same effect. RATING IN IRELA.ND. The NOBLE LORD said he wished to call the attention ,f the House to a statement which he had received from .ho town of Wexford, setting forth the great inequality tf the system of rating there. They had sent a oecimen of the rating in the shape of the official advertisement of the rate. This notice stated that there Nere two dislr.c - s, one in the town and the other in the tdunty. Now, while the rate for tee one was but 2d in he pound, the other was Is. 7d. in the pound. He hoped ler Majesty's Government would take this matter into t,neir serious consideration in their present measure. The earties to whom he referred also prayed that, if the rates wero paid by the landlords, they should have the c ower of appointing the guardians, who would have tne :uperintendence of the rates. NATIONAL EDUCATION. The NOBLE LORD presented petitions from the P ro t e stant Dissenters of Birdrush, Wilts, against the jovernment scheme of national education. His Lord •hip said that there was an unfounded prejudice raised gainst this measure, which was one of a most tolerant haracter to all sects, of whatever religious persuasion. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that nothing amid be more unfounded than many of the statements contained in the petitions presented against this scheme. Et was characterised as intolerant, and framed with the intention of excluding the Dissenters from its benefits. le should not have been at all surprised at the jealousy shown by many classes if half of what was stated in hose petitions were based on truth, but the facts were thogether opposed to these statements. It was alleged that the measure was only intended to give a monopoly .0 the Church, but with all his (Lord Lansdowne's) re •pect for that venerable establishment, he should be the ast man to give them unlimited powers in the matter of education. Lord BROUGHAM confirmed the remarks made by he Noble Lord. He had often seen intolerance and prejudice, but he had never witnessed so much misrepre • ntation as on this measnre. He remembered that in 1820 he was borne down on the Parish:Schools Bill, because tie was supported by the Church, and consequently op posed by the Dissentsrs. The result had been, and would tail be, that education would be lost between them. FLOGGING IN THE ARMY. The NOBLE LORD presented petitions from Braintree and Bucking, in Essex, against flogging in the army. LAW OF PATENTS. The NOBLE LORD presented a petition from Mr. Ros ;ott, of Edinburgh, praying fur an alteration and reform in the law of pat( nts. MEDICAL SECRETS. The NOBLE LORD also presented petitions from Mr. ?atriek Maxwell and other members of the medical trofession, praying that the same indulgence might be ;ranted to them, in the matter of secrets connected with heir profession, that was extended to barristers and gentlemen in the practice of the law. THE CASE OF JOHN ROCKEIAM. The NOBLE LORD moved for a return of copies of the Jommittal, and the correspondence with the Secretary of State, in the case of John Hockham, a prisoner corn :flitted by one of the NH idlesex magistrates. SALE OF FIRE-ARMS IN ULF:LAND—RAIL WAYS—EMIGRATION. Lord STANLEY said he had three petitions to present, which, as they referred to most irnpor rant subjects, were well worthy the serious con sideration of their Lordships. The first was from (Ale (High Sheriff a nd the grand jury of the South Riding of the county of Tipperary, agreed to at ;'le last assizes. They stated that they viewed with farm the unprecedented sale of fire-arms in Ireland, aid that Justice Jackson had alluded to the sub ject in his charge. Many of f th b e ad arms wer er e to the possess i o n of pearact. E'he head constable of Clonmel had furnished a report, giving the names of twelve persons (whose tames he would not read, but he should be happy to dace the list in the hands of the Noble Marquis), who were importing larg e q uantities of guns, pistols, .tayonets, &c., which they sold at from 2s. to 30s •ach ; tour of them were in the habit of disposing .if them by public auction on the market days. As the Birmingham manufacturers had been unable to meet -he excessive demand, they had obtained them, at a re duced price, from the pawn-shops. The arms, they went on state, were frequently in the possession of ser vant-boys, and of persons employed on the public works, who devoted a portion of their earnings o their purchase.—(bear, hear.) He (Lord Stanley) ;ould state, from a private account which he had received, that at one of these auctions in the Clonmel , narket-place. the seller endeavouredto induce persons to ouy guns and pistols by such expressions as these— '. Here's a receipt in full for the last November rent," old " Warranted to bring down an agent at one nundred and fifty yards' distance."—(Sensation and laughter.) The petitioners concluded by praying coheir Lordships to pass a la w which would prevent ill.' disposed persons from having fire-arms in their posses ston, and which would prevent them from having their lives thus placed in continual jeopardy. He (Lord Stanley) would also state that a number of persons .vho were employed in the public works recently assembled in a field in the neighbourhood of Clonmel, mud amused themselves by practising shooting with ball it a hat, each successful shot being received with loud sheers. The second petition was from the same per sons, in favour of a general scheme of tworailays for Ire but B and, as they consid ered they would o ly prcie no st beneficial to t he p eo p le, provide Licrative employment for them for many . years. The third, which was also from the same parties, was in favour of a general scheme of emigration, under the auspices of the Governnaent. He knew that there vere great difficulties in the way of carrying out uch a scheme, because great expense would be en hailed upon the Government, and the colonies would be teluged with thousands of destitute persons. It was right that a mistake which prevailed with respect to the pos sessions of the Government, for the purposes of emigra tion, should be rectified, as the Government had not an acre of land for that purpose in the North American colonies. It was in the possession of the local legisla . lire. and they viewed with alarm an increase of emi- gration. Lord BROUGHAM expressed his disbelief that any general depletion of the system, such as that referred to ay the Noble Lord with regard to Ireland, was possible. there could be any means of ascertaining the number of marriages that had taken place in that country during a l e last six months , compared! a ith the correspo period last year, some light might be thrown upon this übject. lie was apprehensive that if they took away a large number of the population, as it was proposed to le. they would in a short time be as swarming as they were now. Lord STANLEY wished to know if there was any ruth in the statement that a tax had been lately imposed upon all emigrants into the states of America. Earl GREY sail that he understood a measure of that kind had been under consideration in Congress, in ;onsequence of some abuses that had occurred in con -lexion with emigration from German, not British ports. ['hese emigrants had been landed on the quays of New York, uud an immense number of them were utterly unable to labour. He did not think, however, that any ibstruction would be given to the ordinary emigration rum this country. If no means were taken on this site to stimulate, there would be no attempt on the other side o ch• ck ernivration. Before Lord Elvin had left for Canada, he understood from him thatevery exertion would be made to facilitate the distribution and absorption of ail toour into that colony, and he was happy to say that this h id been attended with the best results. Lord AS EIBURTON said that he had faith in the mode of relief proposed for the rebel of destitution iu Ireland, pro , ided caution was observed on the arrival of the emigrants at the several points on the other side of the Atlantic, he slid not think any evil would ,rise from the increase of emigration. Mr. Bu chanan, the agent in Canada, stated that, pro viding the emigrants were sent westward as soon As they came, they would soon be absorbed in the mass of the population. Seeing the deplorable state of Ire land, and the distress which prevailed in many pl.aces of England, with the possibility' of the same happening this year, it behoved t hem to look caref n u o l t ly t b n o to t e h x e te q n u d e e t i on whether emigr ation could sd further. The vast capabilities of the valley of the Mis sissippi were such, as to grow food in g reater t abu o n ul d d an b ce e than any other portion of the globe ; and hadthwemat ?we whoi the u d greatest not o b tain humanityn maintenanceto l place t h h e e re p . e a p l e e i !ion of a remarkable character to present on this subject. The petition was signed by 1,500 of the pewest people of the barony of Ardagh, in the county hey were cottiers, who had no connexion whatever of biona4han. with the land, and they were not instigate d by any one in their present course. They petitioned entitely on their own account, and complained that the measures at present proposed were only of a temporary nature; and they further stated that as much would be required for the poor rates during the next eight months to maintain them as would pay the expenses of their emi gration to the colonies. lie was aware that there was a sufficient stimulus to emigration without the govern ments furnishing additional incentives; but all he meant was that they should take care that the emigrants did not sutler any unnecessary hardship on landing in America. Some hints had been thrown out that some possible interference might be given on the other side. They were well aware that Canada and their colonies would be unable to absorb the tide of emigra tion to the new continent ; the majority choosing rather to go on to Michigan, Illinois, lowa, Ohio, the Urkansas, and the other states on the Mississipi, He thought that this petition was eminently deserving of their Lord ships' attention. He would take leave to direct their Lordships attention to another point, and that was the m atter of registration. He found that the excess of bi r ths over deaths was only some 160,000 in the last three years, and, when they took into consideration the ORN'ING, MARCH 1 number of persons who left t his countr y it would be very report of the Hon. Member for i rties3 had bean n little short of that number. According to the returns, ! presented to the House as the report at the Committee. therefore, there needed not to be any great anticipation i As farts he could learn, the Committee could have been of a superabundance of population. •no py to the report. Beyond this he could give no Earl FETZWILLIAM said there were one or two ques- , explanation. tions which he was desirous of asking the Noble Earl. He ! Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET bad seen the understood that the petition emanated from 1,500 persons. ! document quoted as the report of the Committee, and as We r e all of these heads of fa milies? What proportion did the entitled to authority ; hence he had been induct d to ,' th ! Committee. Lord ASHBURTON number of petitioners bea r to the total population of the dis ' ask the quest on. It was his decided opinio n that the document ought not to have gone forth as the r e p ort of trict in which they lived ? And what were the average hold ings of each ? believed that th rel e ,s n oo um . be H r e o e f o f u a l m d il n i o e t s ; was 390, and that the Mr. HUME said, that although he had attende d almost individuals answer the Noble Earl's last queston. every meeting of the Committee, he had not been present Lord BROUGHAM (looking over the petition)—Why the lon the last day, but seeing his name down as one of the signatures are all in the same handwriting.—( Laughter. ) I Members who had attended, he felt it his duty to inquire Lord NIONTEAGLE trusted that the Government would by what authority the clerk had done so. The clerk take measu es to insure a complete system of registration. peded b was prepared to say that neither he nor his Hon. Friend Y beside him (Mr. Gibson) were present, and he had only t Local e f a e nAl i generalve system registration, at pr es a e n n d t mnoatehonilray was the i reported them as so by desire a the Chairman, and mere numerical department wrong, but for matters of nom - therefore the report stood in the records of t hat House parison—as regarde d the census of one year compare d w i th another—it was altogether worthless. The census had been as their report. He believed diet the irregularity art e , • , taken three or four times lrelan d, in but as it had been taken altogether from the lion. Member for Inverness being each time by different parties, the results were found to be •nted eri*h , • -, ~ •• •Q unacquai s C• nunittLt i usines.. irreconcilable and utterly useless as data. He hoped, how. Lord G. SOMERSET suggest , d that the irr:gularity ever, now religious animosities had materially subsided, that should be rectified as soon as possible. the Government would carry out this recommendation. Mr. M. GII3SON thought that they could not arrive A erea . er number of persons would emigrate this year than at the circumstances of this case in the absence of the during many past years, but this would not act as a remedy Hon. Member for Inverness. for the existing distress, as those who would emigrate would The SPEAKER said the proceeding; were irregular, do so voluntarily ; and as the y were persons of small capital, inasmuch as the draft re p ort was laid by the Chairman they would deprive, by their removal, the home market of the before a Committee, the members of which did nut advantage of their capital; therefore, the result could not fail attend. q injurious. But there were particular localities in Ire- . --- e to be saughter.) He should suggest that the Corn ttee be re-ae tinted. land in which the excess of population and distress was so great m 1 - , p that no steps they could take for the improvement of the land, Mr. GIBSON moved the re appointment of the Com er for the promotion of peace, would afford anything like adee mittee.—Agreed to. quate relief, unless the Government gave meny of them means POOR LAW IN IRELAND. of emigrating. The promoters of the Irish poor-law were of Mr. P. SCROPE presented petitions from Ballyallen, this opinion, as the Government of Lord Melbourne stated, in Castledown, Ruche, and other places, in favour of a support of it, that that they looked to e migration as a coils.- poor-law that would give a greater measure of oat-door teral evil. They must not, however, measure the good which relief to the destitute poor of Ireland. would accrue to a district, by the number of persons who left it, for the purpose of em i g ratin g , as this was a fallacious test. GREAT NORTH OF INDIA RAILWA Y. —(Hear, hear.) As , ho wever, the sub j ect was too impor- Mr. MACKINNON wished to know from th e Ri g ht tent to be dealt with in a mere conversation, be trusted, Hon. the President of the Boardof Trade whythe taut in the course of the present year, to have an opportunity of terms offered to two of the railway companies in the discussing it in connexion with the measures which the two presidencies of Bengal were not also offered to the Government intended to introduce with respect to it. Great North of India Railway. Lord STANLEY hoped he would not be understood as de- Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE said that the reason was, that precating emigration. He did not fear that any mischievous the terms offered had merely reference to an experis result would take place from local efforts and local boards. On mental line, and as these railways supplied the upper the contrary, he hoped that a clause would be inserted in the and lower presidencies, which the Great North of Ind'', Poor-law at present under the consideration of Parliament to did not, it was deemed advisable not to extend the terms promote emigration by local means. What he deprecated was, to the latter railway. that Government should interfere and hold out assistance on a PRIZE MONEY—GHUZNEE AND KEIELAT. large scale. After a few words in explanation from Lord ASHBURTON, Caain LAYARD wished to ask the Right Hon. The Earl of DEVON presented a petition, signed by I,2ooBaronet the President of the Board of Control when it Farney, on the property was likely the prize money to which those who were at or 1,400 cottiers from the barony of - of Mr. Shirley, praying that some measure be made to enable the capture of Khelat and Ghuznee were entitled would them to emigrate. With respect to the statement made a few be distributed? evenings ago, by a Noble and Learne d Lord (Brougham) with Sir J. C. 110BHOUSE said the Khelat prize m one y respect to emigrants receiving 2s. 6d. a head to come over to ~,,,, in course of distribution. Some difficulty had arisen this country, he had two letters in his hand from emigration with respect to the Ghuznee prize money ; but there was agents which showed that the money was only part of a large reason to believe that it was now either in the course of sum which the emigrants were entitled to receive, and which distribution, or about to be distributed, in accordance was a remittance from their friends in America. Lord BROUGHAM said that on the present q uestion he with certain orders issued by the Governor - Gene ral of India about December last. had received a letter from a corresp ondent from Liverpool, in relation to the emigration of Ir ish p oor into that town. The SINDE PRIZE MONEY.: letter was from a gentleman of high authority in that town Captain BAILEY wished to know when the Sinde he stated that with regard to the passage of the poor in many prize money would be distributed. instances the passage money was paid for them by parties in Sir J. C. HOBHOUSE replied that some difficulties Ireland ; others paid it for themselves. The latter were those had also arisen with respect to the distribution of that intending to emigrate to America. In no case, however, did prize money ; and the prize agents, in consequence, had his (Lord Brougham's) correspondent know of a single instance referred two questions to the decision of the Board of of the poor persons being brought over at the instance of the Control and the directors of the East India House, who proprietors of steam-boats, on the speculation of their being had given their decision. The questions were now sent back, and their fares paid by this country. Mr. Rushton under said he did not believe such had ever been done, nor did he (Lord Brougham) think that it had, though it • had been stated they would shortly give their decision, when the money 'bated. otherwise. In one case it was said that 751. had been paid for would be distil „. the passage of 610 persons, or at the rate of about 2s. 6d. a PUBLIC IN ORKS (IRELAND). ' at • head. 0: the poor persons thu s brou g ht over, there were two Captain HARRIS drew the attention of the house to classes—one class being those who came to Liverpool in order a circular recently issued by Captain Clifford, who is con to emigrate to America, and the other class the destitute who netted with the public works in Sip, which he read, spread over this country. Now, he would add a word on the and characterised it as extremely valuable. He wished subject of emigration abroad. It was a most im- to know if the circular was intended for general distri portant, but at the same time a difficult question, bution in Ireland ? still it was one of pressing importance, considering, not only the Mr. LABOUCHERE considered the circular a very state of Ireland, but the demand for labourers in the colon he i e e r s. judicious one. His imp ression was that the ci rcular was T The paper for which he ha d moved would show this. not intended for ge neral circulation. General instruc was at present a great emigra tion g oing forward, and n any-tions would be shortly issued, which would supersede it. thing they did they should tak e care that this was not inter- THE NAVY. feted with. Still they should see that they did not proceed too far in that direction. He would remark that one part of the Mr. WARD . gave notice that on a future day he emigration from Ireland was most alarming, as it appeared should move . for leave to introduce two Bills—the many of the emigrants were small capitalists, who scraped all o bj ec t o f the first being to extend the service of boys they could together, and left without paying their rents, taking in the Navy, and the second for the erection of the executions served on the m b y their landlords in their prisons for th e confinement of naval offenders. pockets. He had been astound ed at t e fact that, in one week DUBLIN CORPORATION. Mr. GREGORY m oved for a return of all expenses rec ently, 8,000 persons, from I reland, had left Liverpool for America. These constituted about one half of the poor that incurred by deputations of the Dublin Corporation from had come over to Liverpool , a y e _ the Ist of November , 1841, to the 31st of De_tember, Lord MOUNTCASHEL ex p ressed a ho p e that some tern of emigration would be adop ted, as it was impossible that 1846, and also returns relati ng to the admissionof f ree- Ireland could support its present population. It was necessary men.—Agreed to. that the Government should take the subject into its most THE WELLINGTON STATUE. serious consideration. Mr. C. BERKELEY wished to ask the First Commis- Earl RIPON was glad at seeing the good spirit which pre- sinner of Woods and Forests what the final intentions of veiled on the present question. He believed a system of her Majesty's Government were respecting the removal emigration, judiciously managed, would have the best effect • 1 of the Wellington statue ? The statue had remained in still it was one they should deal with cautiously. With regard its to emigration to the United States , thoug h it undoubtedly present position for upwards of six months, arid had possessed greater advantages for absorbing the emigrants than condemned by every person—C` Oh!" and laughter) been the colonies, still it should be observed that this Government —had been condemned by every person . —(" Oh !" and He would have no control over the emigra nts when the y g ot there, Laughter.) hoped the Noble Lord would state in a as to their maintenance on a r ri val, or in forwardin g them to plain and i n t e lligible manner—(Laughter)—what the their destination. He did not think any emigration at the intentions of her Majesty's Government were, and if the public expense could be undertaken with that country ; sub committee would take down the scaffolding at their and therefore it would be for them to see own expense. what could be done with the Canadas. This Lord MOP.PETH said that it was the intention of was undoubtedly the best field, as Australia was too far, her Majesty's Government that the statue should be and the Cape of Good Hope, though a desirable colony, could removed, an d h e h a d a l wa y s u nderstood that the sub not possess sufficient capacity for absorbing a lar g e population. committee were under the same impression as the He hoped that the G o vernment would devise a measure to Government, that they had a right to take it down at meet the case, and to pro v id e facilities for those who might . de- their own expense. sire to settle in the colonies. bject then dropped. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that there was an an The su Their Lordships adjourned. dit abroad that they would not pay the expense of its removal. HOUSE 01 COMMONS. March 15. The bPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. S ECOND READINGS. ETON MONTEM. Mr. JAMES wished to put a question to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary respecting the practice called Eton Montem. This was a subject which had recently excited considerable interest in the public mind. The House was aware that the authorities of Eton College had expressed their intention of abolish ing the practice in consequence of its immoral tendency, and its effect in relaxing the discipline of the school. It eyes evidently clear, and there was no doubt of it, that the custom observed by the young gentlemen at Eton Montem was illegal—(Laughter)—and that they were liable to be committed under the Vagrant ct.— (Laughter.) The question which be wished to ask was, whether, in the event of the Provost and Head Master of Eton agreeing to continue the Montem under the advice of an illustrious personage, the Right Hon. Baronet intended to bring in auy Bill to legalise the acts, which plainly subjected those practising them to a cha r g e of highway robbery ?—(Great laughter.) Lord J. RUSSELL said that, as he was a more proper person to answer the question, he might state that when tier Majesty asked his opinion as to giving effeact tostate thed measures for the abolition of the Monten, he hd that in the advice which he bad given t o her Majesty he ) had thought it his duty to say that he concei the Provost and Head Master to be the proper persons ved to consider that question, and that it ought to be left in their hands. The following Bills were read a second time: — Colchester Navigation and Improvement. Edinburgh Markets and Customs. Glasgow and Shott's Roads. Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Branches at Port-Glasgow). Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway (Branch to the Caledonian Railway, and Diversion of Canal). Midland Railway (Mangotsfi(ld to Bath). Parkgato and Chester and Birkenhead Junction Railway. Sunderland Improvement, Markets, and Bridge. Weymouth and Melcombe Regis Harbour and Bridge Trusts. Wolverhampton General Cemetery. RAJA OF SATTARA. Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from the inhabi tants of the city of London, praying that the House would take such measures as would allow the Raja of Satttra to have that privilege which belonged to the meanest of her Majesty's subjects, namely, an oppor tunity of examining the charges against him, and the evidence adduced thereon.—Ordered to be laid on the table. Mr. FITZROY presented a petition from the col lectors and the assessors of the income• tax, praying for a remuneration more adequate to their labours. Mr. REDHEAD YORKE presented a petition from the parish of St. George's, in York, against the Poor Removal Bill. Sir J. TYRELL presented a petition from the parish of Halston, praying that the present criminal code might be abolished. POOR•LAW IN IRELAND. I,lr. ROEBUCK presented a petition from Wiltshire, raying the House to grant a permanent poor-law for reland. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Lord LINCOLN presented a petition from the barony of Farney, in the county of Monaghan, in Ireland, signed by 1,084 of the cottiers there, stating that during the last two years they had experienced great dis tress in consequence of the failure of the potato crop, and praying that the House would devise some means by which they might be enabled to emigrate. They calculated that the cost tor emigration would be only 51. per head for the adults and 31. for the younger members of their families. These circum stances claimed especial atteLtion in the barony of Farney, for there no relief had taken place by the intro duction of public works. They prayed that their peti tion might be taken into considerai ion, and some mea sures taken which would in the mean time give them employment. Lord G. BENTINCK presented several petitions from the cottiers of the eastern portion of the barony ' of Farney, in the county of Monaghan, signed by 1,490 heads of tamilies, stating that they had suffered severe distress during the last few years in consequence of the failure of the potato crop. They had no means of sub• sistence but potatoes grown upon the conacre system, and from the failure of the crops they had reason to believe that the farmers would no longer let them land. The farmers could not in any way assist more than one half of the number of persons who required it, and they prayed that the House would take such measures as would enable them to emigrate to the colonies. He also presented two petitions from the southern division of the county of Tipperary, praying the House to encourage the system of emigration, and also to grant a Bill to stimulate railway enterprise on a large scale in Ireland. HARBOUR IMPROVEMENTS. Mr. HUME presented a petition from a number of shipowners and others of Glasgow, praying for a general Harbour Cjnservancy Bill, instead of the present mode of dealing with harbours. He gave notice that to morrow he should move that the petition be printed with Mr. G D R U E B G L O I R N Y IMPROVEMENT titi B on IL i L. ro . m inhabitants of Dublin against the Dublin Improvement Bill. COMMITTEE ON RAILWAY REGULATIONS. Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET wished to have some information from the Hon. Member for Inverness, or any other Member of the Committee that sat On railways last session, as to the circumstances under which the report was issued? The evidence had been pub. lished, and a report founded on it furnished to the House, purporting to be the report of the Committee, though it would appear to have been only the report of an individual, the chairman. Such a course, he submitted, was altogether irregular. Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that he had been a member of the Committee alluded to by the Noble Lord. Be recollected beingthe at 7th the of la Aug st meeting but one of t he Committee, on ust. On that ot,easion a series of rdsolutiona was submitted and considered and amended. These resolutions were re ported to the house accompanied b y About a fortnight after, the the evidence. 25th of August, the COM mittee was summoned to meet, but no one attended but the Hon. Member for Inverness, the chairman. They were, therefore, unable to make a quorum, but a ' draft of the report was NM on the table, an n d a minute ; was made by the clerk of the pdigs. After the Totes, that the draft 1 wards it appeared from THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY They had admitted more . peeple into the workhouses than re r ,„,,, he were in ordinary cases calcul a t e d t o h o ld . T hey had also 3 ex panded large sums in drainage, in order to give employment to the poor, and 100,C00/. had been contributed by local com mittees for the relief of the poor. He regretted that the Go vernment proposed to institute the o u t-d oor relief test, bevaus. he believed it would open a door to f rau d . H e quoted the opinions of Mr. Lewis and sir. Twisleden, Assistant Pocr-la w Commissioners, to show the great disadva ntages which could not fail to attend the adoption of a large plan of out-door relief. They agreed in opinion that each a system would impoverish those who, like agricultural labourers, had some work to do, and would throw a burden on the landlords which they would be unable to hear. Until the social condition of Ireland was assimilated to that of England, such a poor-law as the one proposed would be found most impo litic, and Ireland, instead of being, as he hoped, the right ar m o f England, would become a far greater difficulty than heretofore. He, with those with whom he acted, were very sorry indeed to throw any imputation on the landlords of . Ireland. For fifteen years he had paid great attention to the affairs of that country, but le must say, though an advocate for a poor-law, that he believed that the measure proposed was quite inade quate to the necessities of that country. He had listened to the speech of the Hon. Hember for the University of Dublin and he could bear witness to the assertions of the Hon. Mem ber, after having listened to his speech, that he was in no way open to the objections which had been made to his observa tions, for no man had done his duty better ; but still he felt that the principles of the electoral divisions was a bad one, for when he compared the principle adopted in Wexford with that adoi ted in the division of Lady's Island, he fourid that while in the former the borough rate was Is. 7d. in the pound, that e advanced. mightuer e s p i not P in the latter was only 12d. The natural result was, that the paupers had been driven from the electoral dislricts into the f t e o r w g ri et s. th l That speech e t h h e of the natural Hon. result, Memberand still t,m th h e e L c .rn o not t u v l e d rsi ty had asserted that Ireland had not p gres-ed. That Hon. Gentleman the l landed nthdeed paupers, hga e d still tr a no f du u g r thh t , further time iom a asserted support e h r a t d e t o r l? m a tt t h, the poor rhot the r e al had anndd sup ported and un tily o f that ty country y d never som e notine o l su r u g e led e l h a t ne r b i,ned'ee,oa. interests impression on fe suffi cientat hri Hear,) Not hatingwitness , butue h h p e r oepoeurltdy be the landlords ayvoeuhgat the et made ar o edse b e be fort responsible e G s t o p h o te, n ei s rm i n ti mp l e reon‘ f ,t o e r mf th euni e lt rn s eo u rfe p r Ai t e ht o s te r t s for e poo poor the tn poor. re r riion li s e th g e Ireland ; and he trusted they would be carried out. When the Noble Lord who introduced the measure for the formation of railways had stated that this could only be a temporary measure, he was anxious for a permanent measure for the relief of the poor. Lord JOHN MANNERS conceived that unless some permanent measure were introduced, it would be worse than useless, for, unless that were done, it wa s only weak ness to legislate. Out of a population of five hundred thou sand, this measure was only calculated to give relief to Three hundred thousand labourers. Admitting that this measure was calculated to administer relief to six hundred thousand heads of families, yet it was evi dently inadequate to the circumstances of the case, They had then to look to the measures of the Government, and he must confess that the measures which they proposed was totally inadequate for the purpose which they professed to serve, and admitting all the facts which the Noble Lord had adduced at the commencement of the session for the improve ment of the waste lards in Ireland, he still could not perceive that there was anything like an assurance that these measures would answer the purpose for which they were propounded.—( Hear, hear.) On the remarks of his No ble Friend the Member for Lynn, be would offer no comments, but he might say, that on the facts which he had adduced no one could express the slightest doubt. That Noble Lord had stated that by his project employment would be provided for upwards of five thousand heads of families as su perintendents of the works which he had advocated, and none of those assertions had been contradicted. and then the House looked to the opportunity which was af forded for the employment of the people, he thought that the House would be assured that the measures of the Government would in no way prove superior for the advantage of the people. Admitting that 5,000 hearts of families were to be provided for by the scheme of waste lands, he then came to ask what was to be effected by any scheme for increased emigration. The Noble Lord had said that he did not in , end greatly to increase the facilities for emigration, and supposing that the increase would accommodate 5.000 heads of families more, they then came to the extended fisheries. With all these schemes—the drainage—the education scheme—and the fisheries—public works—there-could not be more than 100,000 heads of families provided for. He asked then, what became of the half million of persons which remained.—( Hear, hear.) What was to become of them, and what measures did the Government. intend to adopt for their relief. He would put before the House the reasons which induced him to think that they had still population to provide for. He agreed that they had a right to expect increased exertions on the part of the Irish laudlord, and increased cultivation of the land. They ought to rely greatly on the Irish landlord for th employment of these la bourers, and therefore they ought to take care to give such a • poor-law as would not depress, but facilitate the exertions of the Irish proprietors. The measure was one of the greatest im portance, and ought to be approached with the greatest caution. It was a measure which ought to enable Irishmen to look back with pleasure, instead of sorrow, to the period of the calamity which afflicted them. He felt that a portion of this Bill tended in the most direct manner to interfere with the exertions of Irish landlords. It made no difference between those landlords who spent their incomes in the improvement of their estates and the amelioration of the condition of the peasantry, and those who spent their incomes uselessly at Bath or at Naples. The present measure would destroy the last remnant of that ancient parochial and territorial system which had tended so much to the benefit of the country, Let them conceive the feelings of the man who was rated for his portion of the expenses, when he had exerted himself to the utmost in the maintenance of his own poor, and who had forborne to place a burden upon those who were in distress— let them conceive his feelings when rated equally with the man whose tenantry knew or saw nothing of him, except at certain periodical visits. He could not bring himself to sup port such a system—a system which pressed equally upon the man who did his duty and the man who neglected it in every respect. He thought, unless the House would show a bolder wisdom than had hitherto been shown by her Majesty's Go vernment, they would extend a curse rather than a boon to Ireland, by an extended poor-law. They should make Irish property answerable to the Irish poor, but not in the way in which her Majesty's Government proposed to do. Unless that care were taken in imposing a Poor-law upon Ireland ses-ion after session, would Irish misery form a never ending hems of discussion in that House, and one which would never be properly remedied unless greater caution were adopted. Mr. LA - BOUCHERE said that he should not direct his at tention to the details of the Bill before the House, several of which were most important, but to that which he believed to be the main principle of the measure. lie should not, there fore follow the Noble Lord who had just sat down into the ques tion of whether the system of rating should be placed upon the unions or upon the electoral divisions; nor should he advert to the proposition made by several gentlemen, of increasing the number of ex -officio guardians ; because he thought that in stead of mixing up all these details into one general description it was the rule of that House to consider them severally in committee, when the clauses relating to them were brought forward ; and it would be of more use to con fine themselves to the general principles of the measure. That principle was one of the most important kind—it was whether the system of out- door relief should, however slight, be extended to the able-bodied poor in Ireland. H. confessed that, for his own part, he should be willing to take the justification of the measure which had been proposed by her Majesty's Government from the speeches which had been made in vindication of its principle by gentlemen connected with Ireland, and which had been addressed to the House in the course of the evening. He alluded particularly to those speeches made by the Noble Lord the Member for Down shire, his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford, and the Hon. and Gallant Member representing Londonderry. They were three gentlemen entitled, by their experience as Irish landlords, their intimate acquaintance with the local concerns of Ireland, and the honourable anxiety which they had evinced in their respective localities to improve the condition of the people around them, as well as any Members of that House could be, to express an opinion upon this subject. Those three gentlemen could not be influenced by the disposition attributed to the Irish Members by some of the English Members of that House, namely—that of support ing the measuresdevisierdisfrinthteerersetla. Tn relief of Ireland, Hon. reland Member ,without any d individual regard to said that he opposed the introduction of out-door relief, as it was introducing a dangerous principle into operation ; but the question was, a great calamity had overtaken Ireland, the potato-crop had failed, and hence!orth the people of Ireland must either starve or be enable to earn wages. Such was the state of things, and he raid it was no longer possible to leave them to chance, or to toe support derived from voluntary contributions, but that a provision must be made by the Legislature to support those persons. They hail now ar rived, if not to the end of the discussion, at least to the second night of it, and he het heard no answer to the question pro pounded by the Noble Lie d at the head of the Government In his opening statement, which was the alternative before them, either to maintain the peo, le or allow them to starve. No one had said let them be left to perish, or that England, or the imperial treasury, should maintain them. On the contrary, though it was admitted that Ireland at present had peculiar claims on this country, it was held right that the destitute people of Ireland should be supported by the property and the soil of Ire land. This was the principle of the present Bill, which he had no doubt would be agr:ed to by an immense majority, not only of English, but of Irish Members, and be made the law of the land. The Noble Lord who had just sat down, stated that he was not against the measure, but he objected to it, because it was not accompanied by other large and comprehensive mea sures. He (Mr. Labouchere) admitted that the Bill should be viewed in connexion with the general scheme of the Government, but he could not but see that the e main objection of the Noble Lord arose from the rejection of the favourite scheme for eailwanys This troduced by the Noble Lord the Member for Ly nn but he (Mr.Ly n c onstituted the main objection o f the Noble Lor d , Hon. Member for the University of evils of the case. The h Ho ta . te of the county of Mayo and Labeuchere) could not see how the measure could have met Dublin had referred to t e fo to support the destitute. This was an 'extreme cumstances, and Learned Member cited. But sup posingasked how it was possible for the . proprietors, under such ' sir- asked which the would ask another question , sft s s would u w as, the h e(Nir. propertyLaobf Labouchere) pro prietorsere) that Mayo w as aid? He believed that i t would not unless great exertion was be su ffi cient to support the destitute without external made, and it was to stimulate this that the i present Bill was pre pared. He believed that it would he great exertion on the part of Irishmen mpossible to struggle through without them selves, and therefore he though t the present n the conduct measureon lead to this. A go od deal of di scussion had turned co nduct of the Irish landlorag d s , and sweeping condemnations had been made. n et gretaitnaintjhuesitriceeonhdaudeb,etionrleeaed done re w ith out of view the pecuniary s everal Hon. Members, that them, as it was unfair, in dif ficultiesesti- in which they were p laced. And he believed t hat i f as g reat exertion had been made to bring to light the conduct of those whe had done their duty in the crisis, as had been displayed in bringing obloquy on others, a very different im pression would have been produced on the House and the country. He thought that if the con.. duct of many of the small proprietors, especially the great sacrifices of the clergy had been placed before thent and the public, it would be seen that great injustice had been done to the proprietors of Ireland as a whole. At the same time, he must say that the Legislat ore had not received from others that support which had been exiected. He never liked to give names, but as several Sco:ch proprietors had been most deservedly mentioned for the exertions they had made to relieve the destitute, he wished to name one Irish landlord who could bear comparison with them, and he was but one of many others he might cite. He knew nothing of the gentleman personally, and the information he had derived was from one of the officers employed under the Government in that part of the country where the gentleman resided. The Right Honourable Gentleman here read an extract from the let ter of the officer, which stated that Sir Robert Booth the gentleman referred to, resided in the county of Sligo, ee where he had a large estate. He had at hdiasil own stribute 180 i gallons of soup. During six days place opened two id n two soup boilers of 140 gallons each, and distri buted 180 loaves of bread a bove 4 s. in the week at a reduced B e sides this, he distributed i n b each wewigehetk, e h ac e h also dai sides selling 30 tons of Indian hr ) corn_ p g r u i a c n e t . —(H oaantdmceaele and o ther articles of food. He n had, 51 7 tons of Indian corn in sand, a Indian cern m %ere, besides bad dttie ordereddate o fa bletter , tons 1041 ANNUAL TAX. - Lord G. BENTINCK wished to ask a question o , his Noble Friend at the head of the Treasury. On the 20th of July last year, whet the sugar duties were made a permanent tax, instead of an annual tax, his Noble Friend had stated that before the s t h of July he would state what great tax lie would su b s titute for those duties, in or der to give the constitutional protection the voting of a great tax afforded. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not the intention of the Government to propose that any duties at present veral representa permanent should be made annual. complaining of Lions had been made to the Governmalt merce sustained the great injury which trade and by submtttiug duties annually to ethe consideration of the House. DRAINAGE OFLAesNaDa3 adjourned On the order of the day for r irTLtLbe. debate on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bili att bei ntion o ng read, the Mr. cAyLEy wished to direct.nthaeg ef House very briefly to the D r w hich stood on the pap er for the third reading that be a Bill to amen d night. He said he understood it to by which a a Bill that had been pas sed last session, t of land was made grant of money for the improvena to Great Britain to the a mount e :f 2,000,000 L, and to Ireland to the amount of 1,000,00/: But now it was intended to make a grant to Ireland itself el 1,500,0001_. And, although there was a grant at 2,000,0001. to Great Bri tain, he found there were applications a for 3,000,0001., in consequence of whic_lit t b lbeen pro p ose d on the C ommittee to lmt .t the grants to in dividual applica nts to th e sum 0001. But what of 10 was he thought singu l ar was , that it intended to allow 1,500,000/. to Scotland, and only 600,000 L to ture n although the object of the t was to raise the character of agricul in England to a level with that of Scot land, and yet such was the ratio to be established between t h e two in the matter of this grant His object in rising was to ask his Noble Friend at the head of the Woods and Forests, whether some means could not be devised for a more equal distribution of the money to be advanced so as to benefit the proprietors of England as well as those of Scotland. Ile should be glad to hear any intimation thrown out upon this subject. Sir G. GREY said that he would not then enter into the merits of the Bill. He thought that the limitation which had been made to the sum of 10,0001. removed the only objection to the Bill. No application what ever had as yet been made from England. THE CUSTOMS DUTIES. Lord G. BENTINCK wished to know when it was the intention of the Government to bring forward the Customs Duties Bill, and also to go on with the Rail ways Bill ? The C HANG LLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that with regard to the Customs Duties Bill, it was the inten tion of the Government to have brought it forward onFri day, but the length of the debate upon the Irish poor-law had precluded them from doing so. The Bill would be brought forward next Monday, and the Railways Bill would be upon the orders for the same daY. Si r BENJAMIN HALL pre sente d apetition from the Nlary lebone Vestry, in favour of the Irish poor-lae. POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.—ADJOURN ED DEBATE. On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair. Sir W. CLAY said that the expediency of adminis tering out-door relief to the poor of Ireland ea 3 the question which properly came under their consideration upon that night; there were other questions, no doubt, important ones of detail, but the proper place to discuss them would be in Committee. The opponents of the measure overlooked one important consideration —they regarded it as one which gave an immediate arid positive right to relief to the able-bodied.—(Hea r, h ea r.) But it did Rot contain any such provisio n ; it gave it through the intervention of the l'oor-law çOinDaiSSiollerS, and fo; t h at purpose it vested large discretionary powers in that body, powers unex ampled in extent and ' somewhat unconstitutional. The House were about to give the Poor-law Commissioners cra right to impose taxes and 1 rates to the amount of some millions upon the people. The Noble Lord dissented; but he, after a diligent perusal of the Bills, had come to that opinion. Now, he did not think any Government would ask such powers if they did not believe that an urgent necessity existed for them. lie himself believed that such necessity did exist, and he accordingly did not blame the Government. It was no longer doubtful that Ireland must have a real and efficient poor-law, similar in principle and spirit to the poor-law in England. The people of this coun try were prepared to make every sacrifice to meet the existing distress, but they still felt that in the long run Ireland should support her own poor. As the poor of England was supported by the property of Eng land—as the poor of Scotland was supported by the pr perty of Scotland—so ought the poor of Ireland to be supported by the property of Ireland. But was the condition of Ireland anything approaching to that ? On the contrary, the whole of the population was in a far different position. For the greater part of the year the labourers in Ireland work only for wages daring a part of the year, and only so long as shall enable them to pay their rent. lie quite agreed that it was necessary to introduce a poor-law into Ireland, but if they consented to allow relief to the able bodied poor. they would be bringing in at the same time a practice that would be highly injurious to the country, and the difficulty would arise as to whether the law should be introduced so as to work only in one county, or to be conducted according to the unions. He firmly believed, while expressing his opinion, that the poor-•law as at present proposed would be adminis tered mischievously, and that the poor-law of Ireland must ultimately be assimilated with that of England and Scotland He believed that it was most erroneous to sup pose that a conviction of the necessity of a poor-law for Ireland arose from the fact that the present distress had touched the pockets of the people of England. He felt assured that the conviction was one of slow, silent, and steady growth. It was matter of surprise, not that the people of England held that opinion now, but that they had not thought of and acted upon it some years before. In Ireland, to the eternal disgrace of that country, it had been possible for human beings to perish from famine without any human law to appeal to, in order to avert the dread calamity. For many years it had been a matter of surprise that so many associations should have ex isted in Ireland the Whiteboy, the Ribandmen, and numerous others; and ♦arious measures had been adopted from time to time to suppress those secret societies, but the attempts had been all in vain, And why bad they failed ? Because the condition of the Irish peasantry had been most shamefully neglected. Was it, therefore, surprising that they should join together and unite themselves to such associations ? He said they all well knew that Ireland was rich in the elements of wealth, and they did not need the admir able work of Professor Kane to tell them of her mines, her fisheries, and the capabilities of her soil, that she possessed enough to maintain a population double that which at present existed, and in prosperity. But why, he asked, was that wealth not developed ? Because there was no security for life and property in that country ; and he believed there would be no security without laws that should be respected by the people, and that respect for the laws could only be founded upon a well-confirmed belief that on these laws depended their own interest. That led him naturally to a poor-law for Ireland. He was not one of those who were hostile to Irish landlords. It was therefore in no hostile spirit to them that he urged the enactment of a good poor-law, for he considered that it would ftrward the welfare of the people, and also the prosperity and wealth of the landed proprietors. An Hon. Member had made a long and detailed com parison between the counties of Norfolk and Mayo, when discussing the question the other night, but he (Sir W. Clay) differed from the conclusion to which that lion. Gentleman had come. That Hon. Gentle man ought to have considered that in Norfolk there was a security for life and property. After thirteen years experience they had found that out of the whole sum raised for the relief of the poor in England and Wales, two-thirds were expended in out-door relief; and, in his opinion, it was wisely so ex pended. Out-door relief was not only the best mode of relief, but the most effectual mode in which it could be administered. In every country in Europe there was, to a greater or less extent, a law for the relief:of the poor —hut in no country was it upon so large and liberal a scale, as it was in this country, and in no country were they so completely carried out. Mr. Senior, in his interesting report, comparing the amount of wages as given in the Continental States with those paid in Eng land, says that the wages of the agricultural labourer in England nearly double the average of those in any of the Continental States, and such, adds be, is the result of the English poor law. He was not prepared to adopt the unmeasured language which he bad read in some newspapers with regard to the conduct of Irish proprietors, nor was he pre pared to adopt the sentiments which had fallen rom the Hon. Member for Bath; but he must say in opposition to the articles in the Times and the Tablet, they might bring forward those of the Nation news paper; and against the polished sarcasms of his friend the member for Bath, they might array the violent and immeasured language used at Con ciliation Hall for a long series of years.—(Hear.) From what he had said it would be easily understood that he was desirous that the landlords of Ireland should be made the instrument for bringing about the social reformation of the people. Government had praised that course, and although be had heard a good deal of fault found with their measures,he mu,t confess that hehad seen no others which were:: better calculated to effect the great object in view. lie was sure Government would practise every economy in carrying their measures into operation, and he did hope Ireland would do its best to secure their success. The success of the measure now before them depended in a very high degree on the con duct of gentlemen opposite. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS—CRIMINAL LAW. A message was brought from the House of Lords, requesting the attendance of Mr. Law, the Recorder of London, and Mr. Shaw, the Recorder for Dublin, at a Committee of their Lordships on the subject of criminal aw DEBATE RESUMED. Captain JONES, in rising to state his opinions upon this subject, could not but express his admiration of the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down. He would, at the same time, express his great admiration also for the conduct of the English people, as well as for that of the Government, for without the energetic proceedings which they hadhout adop th d e a te, he did not hesitate to say , wad ho large portion of the Irish people would have perished. It appeared that on the 9th of January, 1847, there were 101,189 persons in the wotkhouse,but the 9th of January, 1845, the numbers in the workhouse were only 43,764. Now, it was clear that if 54d. was the charge in 1845, when there were only 43,764 persons in the workhouse, it must of course be considerably more for 101,189 persons. It was a simple rule of three question, and it would be found that the charge upon property amounted to 14d., instead of .54d. The charge for the maintenance of each pauper was also considerably more in the present year than in the year 1845, and previous years. He must say that the existing poor-law had proved quite sufficient for Ireland up to the end of 1845; in proof of which he referred the House to the report of the Commissioners, where he found that in 1846 the union-houses were not half full. These were capable of containing 101,000 persons, but they actually contained no more than 43,000. Allegations, however, had been made in that House to the effect that some of these unions had not been opened in sufficient time, and that many persona had been sent away without relief. He ad mitted that there were some cases of the former kind, but, with a single exception, he did not know of any instances whatever of persons being refused relief. He was not subject to the animadversions which had been passed by the Noble Lord upon these gentlemen who had signed the resolutions, for he he had not taken any part at the meetings in Palace-yard, or in Dublin. Yet he must, at the same time, say that he agreed with those gentlemen on the subject of out-doer relief, but he found fault with those reso lutions more for what they did not contain than what they did. He was of opinion that they should have, in the first place, de clared that the people were entitled to relief out of the soil ; they should then have showed how far a poor-law was applic able, instead of appearing to think, as they did, that the Govenrnent should do everything. and the gentry nothing.— ( Hear, hear.) Long before the distress occurred, he was of opinion that they should give relief to every man who took the workhouse test, and few would be found to come a second time if they could avoid it. He thought it safe to go thus far. but no further ; he was not willing to agree to out-door relief indiscriminately, for they would not have a single family in the whole of Ireland who would not expect that two or three individuals would not receive some relief. They ought not to put the applicant upon a better footing than the rate-payer, and his firm belief was they would do so if they adopted the system as proposed. If Government would alter their Bill so as to provide that there should be no out-door relief while there was room in the workhouse, he should have no objec tion whatever to it. He would not detain the House longer, but he, having had some experience in the administration of the existing poor-laws in Ireland, had felt it to be his duty to say thus much upon the plan now before the House. Mr. VILLIERS STEWART said that he perceived that his name was attached to the resolution come to by Irish Members against the Government Bill, but he wished it to be understood that he had never given any authority for it being placed there. It had been agreed in that House that the Poor law Guardians had not been anxious to carry out the powers intrusted to them. He would not, as far as it lay in his power, countenance a charge against guardians. It had been asserted in many places, the guardians had refused to admit the poor until compelled by a mandamus. It might appear extraordinary to an English Member, that such things should be, but a very little inquiry would satisfy him that the occurrence was the consequence of the condnct of the Commissioners towards the guardians in the execution of the great powers intrusted to them. There had grown up a bad feeling between the guardians and the Commissioners, and instances of harsh treatment on the one side, and remon strance and complaints on the other, had come under his ob servation. Many Members were aware that there was a pecu liar feeling in the Irish character, and that was, that while a man had a potato to share he would share it with his neighbour rather than allow him to go into the workhouse. The poor themselves had a strong objection to enter the workhouses. The poor-law was never much to the taste of the Irish. It was against their habits, and the people would rather endure any privation than go into a building where they would be barely supported by charity, and subjected to disgrace by entering it. He had troubled the House with these observations principally for the sake of clearing the guardians from any charges brought against them. He was in favour of producing some measure which would afford out-door relief, and take away the necessity for the poor entering a workhouse for the purpose of receiving relief. Be believed, also, that a system of emigration must be en couraged, for in many cases it would be ruinous to property to sup por t all the poor that m i g ht become chargeable upon i t, from want of means to remove themselves to those countries where they would obtain more, and better employment. He heartly supported the measure introduced by the Governraent. Mr. HAMILTON was anxious to make a few observa tions before going into the question of out-door relief. He was sorry to be obliged to say that, judging from the speech of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone, there was a strong feeling in that House against the Irish proprietors, and a desire to inflict on them what was called stringent measures. He was sorry to say that he had often seen in stances where charges were brought forward in that House affecting individuals, and those charges were afterwards con sidered as affecting a whole class.—( Hear, hear.) He was sorry that the Right Hon. Baronet, in his observations, had not looked fairly upon both sides of the question, hut had, without taking means to inform himself of the correctness of the statements, openly inflicted upon two individuals the not light punishment of denouncing them in that House. He had in his possession a letter from a Mr. Leader, a gentle man in Kanturk, stating that at the presentment sessions there 87,0001. were voted for the public works, and that, too, at a time when it was believed that the whole sum would have to be repaid. The writer went on to say, that Sir B. Hall had been misinformed in the statement he made the other night in the House, and that in the union of K antur k there was not any one single individual possessing a p ro p erty o f 6 , 000/. annum. After the able statements whi c h h a d already been per made on the subject it would not be ne cessary f or him to Trouble the House any further. He believed that no Irish Member entertained any object ion t o t h e mea sures then before the House, although they were cal culated to entail such severe burdens upon Irish property. The Commissioners said, that at that moment there was a de rided spirit of improvement abroad, and since the furnishing of that report the same fact had been abundantly confirmed. He was anxious that the House should take care that that spirit of improvement should not be checked or crushed, because in that ca-e, Ireland would be lost. If anythino were wanting to raise Ireland in the scale of nations it would be an incitement to industry, and therefore he prayed the House not to act on any hastily formed and crude opinions, not to give by a system of out door relief to the poor of that country an excuse for in dolence, and thus neutralise the who'esome feeling which had already so extensively spread throughout the country. He regretted that the Government had not promoted this spirit, by acceding to the measure lately introduced for the purpose of exteedirig industrial improvement in Ireland. He would, with the leave of the House refer to certain statements given in 1841, which showed the number of the population in each of the districts of Ireland, the house accommodation, the extent of land cultivated and uncultivated, &c. He found, for in stance, that in the county of Mayo there were 1,360,000 acres with a population (excluding towns) of 370,000. The accom modation was divided into four classes of houses, and the returns gave the means of these families. The result showed that the valuation of Mayo, was 299,8511. ;- the county rates were 39,289/. ; leaving a net rental of 260,562/. The number of families were 67,000 ; the number of individuals 370,000; and of these 255,987 above five years cf age could not read or write. The number of first class houses was 217 ; of the second class 312 ; of the third class 2,200 ; and of the fourth 3,803 ; thus showing that the burden would fall upon those least able to bear it. The Hon. Member then proceeded to illustrate his argument by similar statistics from different parts of the country. He considered that it was the first duty of Government to take temporary measures for the relief of distressed and starving people ; and he certainly regretted that the Ministry, instead of introducing measures calculated to stimulate and vivify the industry of Ireland, had in the measure before the House, disappointed the country by a promise of relief, which would end only in delusion. Mr. JOHN O'CONNELL, was sorry that this measure had not been introduced at a period when the minds of men were calm, and when they would be prepared to temperately discuss the important question of the poor-law, instead of bringing it forward at a season when the crisis of a starving population dis tracted their attention, and required their fullest consideration. From the report he had received from Ireland, there appeared to be every prospect of a more direful famine oceuring next year, and Government ought therefore to take steps to prevent the calamity bearing down the landlords, rather than to com pel them to maintain an extensive system of out-door relief. He thought, moreover, when it was too late to remedy the omission, Government would regret that they had not pro vided seed to ensure a sufficieny of autumnal crops. On the 20th of March, 20 per cent. of the labourers at present employed on the public works would be dismissed, and as there was nothing for them to fall back upon, this Act would have the effect of increasing the misery and suffering of It eland. A good deal of land would be altogether thrown out of cultivation in consequence of the de cision of Government net to allow the holders temporary relief, and as he was fully convinced that the measures of Government were quite inefficient to meet the emergency, he should give his support to the Bill before the House, because he was glad to snatch at anything which was calculated to prevent some of his fellow beings from dying of starvation. Still, he felt convinced the measure would never succeed. Its direct tendency was to encourage rather than suppress pauper ism, and he was very much afraid it would ultimately lead to an augmentation of the paupers of the country, which already amounted to between two and thr ee millions. But he had a still stronger objection to this Bill. It must inevitably crush the small ratepayer. There were many industrious per sons in Ireland who contributed towards the support of the poor in the workhouses who themselves would be reduced to pauperism, if they were called upon to increase their payments to maintain an extensive system of outdoor relief. He had a number of letters in his possession, written by persons in dif ferent parts of Ireland, complaining of the clause which proposed to increase the number of ex-officio guardians. In one of these letters he found that in one instance, the election of two gentlemen as cx officio guardians was refused, on account of their known liberal views, namely, Sir Wm. Sommerville and the Marquis of Headford. if the ex officio clause were carried, it would open the doors still fur ther to religious dissensions, for in many parts of Ireland the Protestants might predominate, while in another the Catholics might be in the majority, and the result of the passing of this clause would be to increase religious dissensions in Ireland. He did not wish to cast any slur upon those gentlemen who were eligible to become ex rfficio guardians. No doubt they were highly estimable in their private characters as country gentlemen, but they were but men, and he did not wish to trust them with the power of limiting the operation of a Bill which taxed themselves for the maintenance of the poor. New the Noble Lord had called upon Irish Members, if they could do so, to propose a better measure. He was not pre pared to say that he was in possession of a better measure, but had lie been asked to advise her Majesty's Ministers upon the subject, he would have recommended them to pass a very stringent poor-law of a temporary character.—( Cheers.) The money advanced was nothing more than money extracted from Ireland I. y means of a measure passed i n opposition to the wishes of the Irish people He thought that a larger loan than had been advanced would have been nothing more than an act of justice. At the time of the union of the two countries I it was considered that Ireland should not bear a full proportion of the charge of the public debt, and the Act of Union expressly enacted that no equalisation of the taxes and liabilities should take place unless the condition of Ireland were to be permanently and materially improved. If there were, therefore, any meaning in words, he contended that the united Parliament in 1816 most illegally and unconstitution ally exposed, by means of the Consolidation Act, the liabilities of England, and which, it was expressly stated at the time of the union, should not he borne by Ireland. He thought, therefore, that as some reparation for the injustice done, that at least some large loan should be made to Ireland. But, after all, what was the charity that had been afforded to Ireland? If it was an actual grant, it would be no more than justice to give it, but it was nothing more than a loan, one half of which was advanced upon the security of the property of Ireland, and the other was to be repaid in part of the taxation of the country. The charity of individuals in the country had been most liberal and praiseworthy, but the charity (if such it could be called) of that house was of the most niggardly and beggarly descrips tion. He thought that the loan ought to have been a great deal larger than it was. The Government ought also to have imposed a tax upon the rich absentee, and not attempted to grind down the poor ratepayers of Ireland by the imposition of the proposed law. Irish Members had been taunted by the question—What would the advocates of repeal do if the union were repealed ? Why, where was the lower depth to which that unfortunate country could have fallen than that which it has al ready reached under the legislation of this country ? If, how ever, they could obtain the repeal of the union, they would take it immediately. There were ample resources in Ireland which needed to be developed, and which could be applied for the benefit of the country if there were a Paliament sitting there. He bad heard more than once in that House a great talk to the effect that taxation should be increased in Ireland. He thought, however, that it would be much the better course to endeavour to remove the feelings which had been created in consequence of the measures passed for Ireland during the last ten years, by equalising the condition of the various classes of the country. Lord COURTEDs AY felt great pleasure in being able to give his most cordial support to the measure before the House. If he had looked at this measure unconnected with the other measures which he hoped to see shortly laid upon the table of the House, he should feel indeed that it was a measure not entitled to his support. He would impress upon Honourable Members connected with Ireland, the necessity of endeavouring, not only as Members of that House, but also as landlords, by every means to ameliorate the condition of ail classes of the country. He would ask what were they to do with the existing state of things in Ireland? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had put that question to the deputation that had waited Olson him. He (Lord Courtenay ) confessed that he had yet heard no satisfactory reply to it. With regard to the Labour-rate Act of last session, he was bound to say that though he could not altogether approve of it, he thought it had been the means of saving thousands of people from the horrors of starvation. The system of out-door relief proposed in the present Bill was, in his opinion, sufficiently hedged round by restrictions to prevent any abuse. He thought, however, the wisest course would be to limit the out-door relief to the aged and infirm, so as to make roam in the house for the able-bodied. If they did this the law of vagrancy would be rendered unnecessary.—(Hear, hear.) He supported the preposition as a whole, because it appeared to him fraught with the greatest good to the people of Ireland. It would operate as a tax upon absenteeism, and incite the landed proprietors to give additional employment to the desti tute poor on their estates. Without pledging himself to all the details, he would give his cordial support to the principle of the Bill. Sir DENHAM NORREYS did not agree in the opinions expressed by Mr. John O'Connell, with respect to the man ner in which ex-officio guardians where constituted to the Bill, as instead of exciting it would be the means of allaying the religious differences that the Hon. Gentleman anticipated that it would excite. He then proceeded to advert to the state ments of Sir Benjamin Hall with respect to Mallow and other places, and contended that England herself was to Ireland for the state of things that was to be seen insince From the days of Henry the Sec ond to the present the first connexion of the two eo"troiefsl nothing reland. What were hut misery and oppression have been th e p ortion the Irish landlords but what Elaangdlantdo hamdakmeadtehethl amndlordls e was all very well fur Eogask, t of Ireland her scape-goats. N k oys, h t e hem wou d ld her ma ino h a d she not been alwa y s g di r ty work ?—(Laughter.) As they could, ashe could they made the Irish lan dlords their lo tools. as As long a England had sowed religious dissensions among the Irish p e ople, and enabled the landlords, w ho were her instruments, t o exercise dominion o ver the leaseholders, and keep them in a s tate of serfdom, but now when the pockets of the people of '' the r' country were touchettl, they turned round and at sae t id, s' Oh, we do not want you any longer. all these evils. He of things which has sprung up under your mismanage- You must no w bear the responsibility of mismanage ment.the poor in He denied emphatically that the guardians of Ire land had a desire to cheat the poor, as had been imputed to them. In England the poo r -laws fell u p on the eccupier—( Hear) ; but in Ireland they fell u p on the landlodrdscalreonneee, between and not the the position of English and Irish o ccupier, so that there was sh a landlords; charge, the Irish landlords a d t l e o r r ial ds; b iff Ut if the support of the poor were made a national could not urge the objections they bad urged, and would be contented to bear their fair share in the support of their poorer brethren. To show the imp ortance of ratin g electoral divisions, \ he might state that the poor-rate of the town of Mallow was 23. in the pound, but only 2d. inChurchtewn, an agricultural village near it, thus showing the impolicy of union rating; and by a statement with which he had been furnished, it appeared that 300 persons who had been cleared from estates must be come chargeable to the Mallow district. He had felt it his duty to trouble the House with these remarks, because it was possible he might be compelled to be absent when the clauses of the Bill came minutely under consideration. Mr. VESEY denied that the landlords of Ireland had neglected their duty as landlords and as guardians of the pcor, and that they had given niggardly contributions towards the re lief of the poor, and compelled theta to resort to the public worts. .. .taken taken Chi 1 1