The Sun. — London, England, 1853-03-12 00:00:00

4 . i t 1 IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at - five o'clock. The Duke of NORTHUMBERLAND presented a petition from a place in Scotland against the admission of Jews in Parliament. Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from native born Jews of Great Yarmouth, in vestry assembled, in favour of the admission of Jews to Parliament ; also a petition from a place in Montgomeryshire in favour of the extension of county court jurisdiction to cases of -bankruptcy. The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from a Place in Yorkshire to the same effect., GOVERNMENT OF INDIA. The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH rose to present a petition from. the British and other Christian inhabitants of Calcutta and the neighbouring parts in the lower pro vinces of Bengal, with respect to the renewal of the act for the government of the Indian territories. The noble earl said that the petition which he had now the honour to present was signed by a class of persons entirely dif ferent from those whose names were attached to the petitions recently presented on the same subject from Madras and Bombay. The previous petitions were signed very extensively by natives of India of the Hindoo and Mahomedan religions. The present petition was exclusively signed by Europeans, by natives of India of half caste and of full blood, and likewise Christians. The petitioners were about 1,280 in number, of whom 429 were either zemindars (that was, holders of land), or superintendents of factories, or persons engaged in indigo, cotton, or silk speculations, in the lower provi nce of Bengal ; 141 were persons connected with commerce, principally in Calcutta, and amongst them were the names of Jardine and Co., Ashford and Co., and several other of the most considerable commercial houses in Calcutta ' • 183 were tradespeople a n d o th ers w h o were possessed of considerable wealth in that country ; 29 belonged to the legal profession; 268 were uncovenanted servants in the 'Government offices'; 99 were clerks in private establishments ; land there were some others whose avocations were not specifically stated ; but , he apprehended that the petition might be understood to convey a fair representation of the opinion of persons who entertained English ideas with respect to the go vernment of India. They were persons essentially in terested in the prosperity of that country. They stated —and, as far as he had been able to ascertain, truly stated—that the law of India was not only bad, but that the judges were bad, and the executive officers inefficient. They began by pointing out what the law was in the, supreme courts established in the several presidencies. They said that in the supreme court three different codes of law were established—an English code for English subjects, and Hindoo and Mahomedan codes for Hindoos and Mahomedans respectively, as far as civil matters were concerned ' • but that the English criminal law was applicable to all parties of whatever race or religion— that for nearly eight years these three different codes had been administered to the "general satisfaction of -the different races, thereby establishing the important fact that English judges qualified to administer the English law became qualified to administer the native law also. With respect to the supreme court, he would just observe that there wP.s this great practical inconvenience, that when the charter for the foundation of that court was established, all the statute law of England, together with the English common law, was imported into that court, but that since that period no acts of Parliament that had passed in this country extended to India, unless they had been specifically so extended in the acts them selves, er unless they had been made part and parcel of the law of India by act of the legislative authority of that country. The procedure -of the court was directed by the procedure of Westminster Hall ; but their lordships would perceive that a judge proceeding to India to officiate in the supreme court, had to learn both ilindoo and Mahomedan law, of which he knew nothing, and to forget a large portion of the law of England, with whieh he was acquainted. The petitioners then 'stated what the law was in the East India Company's courts, Which had jurisdiction over matters of succession, inhe ritance, caste, marri ages , an d re li g i ous usages . There was also a Hindoo 'and Mahonaedan code of law fer liindoos and Mahomedans, which chiefly related to pro cedure or to the revenue • but the petitioners alleged that no code of equ it y had been established, no maxims or principles laid down, but that it had been altogether left to the courts to work out a system of equitable juris diction, which after sixty years they had not done. When he (Lord Ellenborough) was at the Board of Con trol in 1830, having a proposition to make for the re newal of the East India Company's charter, he thought on that occasion it would be of great importance to con solidate the statute law of England which related to the East India Company, and also to consolidate the regu lations of the East India Company in their courts in India. He offered, from the surplus funds of the Board of Control, to undertake to bear the whole expense of the consolidation of the statute law of England, and he communicated with Sir Charles Grey, then recently re turned from Bengal, where he was Chief Justice, and Who was now Governor of Jamaica, and with Sir Ralph Price, and declared his intention to entrust them with the consolidation of such statute law. He also proposed to the chairman and deputy-chairman of the East India Company that they should undertake to consolidate the government of India in the company's r e e etti ti . Th o e f s the th e e re g g e u n i t a i t e i rn on e s n had h been framed from time to time by councils of the severalpresidencies.vo happened to be in the wholly unacquainted with law, a not These os gentlemen, ssin precision of language, wrote the regulations very g m a u n el 3 : in a conversational style, and gave directions that were understood by themselves, but which it was extremely difficult, from their ambiguity, and from the use of dif ferent words expressing the same thing, for any other man desirous of conforming to the law thoroughly to comprehend. He had also suggested the consolidation of the statute law of England affecting „India, because he knew that in the course of that process its deficiencies would he discovered and corrected. From that time to this, however, twenty-three years had elapsed, and not one stroke had been struck towards the consolidation either of the statute law or of the regulations of the East India Company. During the last twenty years 1 10 doubt the legislative authority of Bengal had im proved the general language of the regulations, but the regulations remained in their old condition (as we under stood the noble earl, who was at times very indis tinctly heard). The petitioners further complained that great inconvenience arose from the number of appeals , and from the requirement that all the evidence should be • taken in writing ; they complained also of the enormous amount of the stamp duties levied upon all documents used in every stage of civil or criminal proceedings. He (the E ar l o f Ellenboroug) saw no excuse for the imposi tion of these excessive stamp duties, except it was from the financial difficulties of the Government ; but these difficulties were no reason why obstacles should be thrown in the way of the administration of justice. The Petitioners went on to allege that there had been a general impression amongst Europeans that in the na tive courts the greatest corruption prevailed, and that eighteen months ago, when corrupt practices were charged against those courts, the civil judges, who in quired into the matter, did not come to the conclusion that the courts were exculpated, but made a general re port that they were now improved. The petitioners next observed upon the appellate jurisdiction, which they alleged rested wholly with th e c i v il servan ts of the East India Company. They stated that the administra tion of justice in the Zillah Court (a Zillah being a divi sion like a county, containing perhaps a million of in habitants) was the cause of universal dissatisfaction— that the judges of those courts were appointed without prop er professional qualifications, and that they had not formed any general body of rules, or any system of equitable jurisdiction. Now, be wished to observe that there was very great and almost insurmountable diffi culty in establishing in the provinces of India a body of judges by whom the administration of justice could be well perfovaed in India where there was no enlightened bar, no Europeans, no public (as was the case in Eng land), before whom a judge in open court had to exer cise,. his functions. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) bad himself, at various times, most anxiously looked at this subject, and he thought it the bounden duty of Parlia ment, or of the government of India, to provide that those persons who were to fulfil judicial functions should have the means of acquiring, and should actually pos tess, a knowledge of the law they were to administer. Indeed, he believed it would be almost advisable that, after a certain period of service, the - judicial servants of the East India Company should be compelled to select their future branch of service, and that after they de cided upon a particular branch, in that branch they should remain unless the Government considered it ex- Pedient to change them. The petitioners stated that . .. 1 4 the company's courts, the criminal law , wh i c h was 11 1 ndam en t a lly Mahomedan at p r esent, was inapplicable to the Hindoos, the immense majority of the population, and therefore suggested that the English criminal law as 1 1 , now stood should at once be extended to India. To t his, however, there was this difficulty, that the criminal 'awfor England itself was at present the subject of inquiry , a nd was yet undecided ; and, further, it was a question Whether it would be expedient to have a body . of gentle 'lieu in India and require them for the first time to exe cute English criminal laws, of which, up to the present inoment, they were utterly ignorant. The petitioners he at came to the subject of the police force, in thdia, which they all e g e d was t o tally inadequate for e prevention of crime or the protection of life and P ro perty, and that it had become an engine of oppres si°ll and a great cause of co rru pti on . They said that 10 ,000 or 11,000 police was under the control of a single i ! l agiattate (as we understood) who was compelled to r eside in one p l ace, an d h a d no power of locomo ti on ; that the distance of the magistrate's court from the place f''here offences were committed was often from fifteen a r fifty miles ; that a prosecutor was unwilling to go so difficulty in getting his witnesses to appear in court ; t :!: that in many cases it was the practice to imprison t prosecutor and his witnesses in order to compel them t l - . " appear against an offender. Sometimes when neither extraordinary nor his witnesses would attend, the b4et_goerduinary anomaly was witnessed of a true charge n supported b false witnesses, who were not re sent a t P 0 , „ and knew nothing personally of the commission offence. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had him '4lli thought the total inefficiency of the police force, as Present constituted, was one of the grefatest grievances „ la the internal state of India, and he had made some pro g . res sin reforming it. He had certainly intended to ' Len d a t en , system of military police over the whole of the gal provinces, and he was satisfied that such a mea 10``feewould have given the Government the means of itur effectually preventing and punishing crime • and t h e w er °o . ld also have had the further advantage of enabling th itie iver . nin en t to place in the hands of the police many s w hich were now performed by the regular army. "—'4 b een stated by a high authority that if that were done it would be possible to diminish the regular forces in India by 50,000 men. The large attendance on the magistrates of India rendered a great additional number of the military forces necessary, and yet, as regarded the prevention of crime, they were of little or no use what ever. With regard to the civil service, the petitioners remarked that there was reason to believe that it pro duced at present a smaller amount of distinguished ex cellence than formerly, and they complained of the monopoly of high offices as unjust, and as prejudicial to the interest of the public service. They said, moreover, that the salaries of persons having the powers of magis trates and in positions of high trust, were very little more than those of youngsters on their first arrival in India, and that changes of employment took place in rapid succession without reference to the aptitude and ability of the parties, the consequence being that civilians were often found at the head of offices and courts of the business of which they knew little or nothing. He feared that it must be admitted that this grievance had existed, and to some extent still existed. The petitioners concluded with prayer that such changes might be effected in the arrangements for sup plying the public service in the civil department as might be considered desirable, and particularly that inquiries might be made into the nature and number of the public employments in India, and the salaries attached to them. That was a prayer which un doubtedly deserved the most serious consideration, and he would call upon their lordships to endeavour to find some principles by which they might be guided on that point. He had always held that the best form of go vernment was that which afforded the greatest facilities for the discovery of superior abilities, and the employ ment of them in the public service. But in the anoma lous situation of India there was this very commanding principle, which, in his opinion, overruled all others— namely, that it was absolutely essential, if we desired to preserve our • dominion over that country, that every person in the employment of the Government should have a deeper and a nearer interest in England than he had in India. It was absolutely necessary to prevent anything approaching colonisation, for colonisation was the same as separation, and it was necessary to pursue the same means in preserving our dominion which we had employed in acquiring it. But he was by no means sure that these apparently conflicting principles might not be united. He should object to giving the Governor of India the power of selecting any person whom he might think competent, and placing him in the highest office under Government. That system would, un doubtedly, lead to much intrigue and improper conduct ; and, above all, it would conflict with the great principle that all persons employed in India should depend more upon England than upon India. But he saw no objec. tion to a modification of the general rule in any peculiar case of great fitness for high office, and the Governor- General, with the previous permission of the home autho rities, might be permitted to place a person peculiarly qualified in a high office, where he might perform good service to the State. If such an arrangement were adopted, the Board of Control ought to have the power of overruling the decision of the Court of Directors as fully as it did now in all political matters. When he (Lord Ellenborough) was in India, there was an uncove nanted servant of the company, Mr. Greenlaw, the se cretary of the marine board, with whom he had had occasion to communicate in reference to the expedition to China, and whose zeal, ability, and cordial devotion to the interests of the public service had alone unabled the expedition to be dispatched in time. That gentle. man he (Lord Ellenborough) would have recommended to the home authorities for promotion had he remained in India. There was also another gentleman, of supe rior abilities and trustworthiness, whom,. after a little longer experience, he might have recommended for similar promotion. The representations of the petiti oners on the subject of police were well worthy of consi deration. The petitioners stated that every landholder was at present obliged to keep bodies of men armed, in order to defend his property against midnight gangs ; and as it was the custom of some dishonest indigo planters to sell their crops to different persons, it became necessary in some cases for the buyer to keep an armed force on the field, in order to secure the produce. With regard to the spirit licenses, the petitioners stated that the selling of them was entirely contrary to the prejudices and habits of the people, and that, in pursuit of revenue, the Government was demoralising the population. He (Lord Ellenborough) had always objected to a reduction of the duty on salt, unless the reduction were very great, but on three occasions, recently, small reductions had been made, amounting to about one-sixth of the tax, oc casioning a loss of about one eighth of the revenue, or, 200,0001. He doubted whether those reductions of ! the tax had been felt at all by the people, and he believed that more good would have been effected if the money had been devoted to the improvement of the great lines of communication in which the body of the people were interested. The petitioners recommended a considerable addition to the Legislative Council, and especially from the commercial class. The least satisfactory part of the business of the government of India, was cer tainly that which was connected with the legislation. The Legislative Council had not time to attend to their important duties, and the frequent replacement of one officer by another, was highly objectionable. He thought that in many respects alterations might be made with advantage in the constitution of the Legislative Council. We ought especially to avoid giving it a local character; the same legislation was not equally suited for the pro vince of Bengal and the other provinces ; you could not legislate in the same m anner f or men w h o never l e f t their homes without a sword, and those who never left them without an umbrella. (A. laugh.) With respect to the home authorities, the petitioners were most de cidedly opposed to the present double government of the Board of Control and the Board of Directors, and, in regard to the latter, the petitioners stated that there was no security for its members being qualified for the high functions which they had to discharge. He (Lord Ellen borough) was much disposed to agree in this opinion of the petitioners. They expressed a hope that the facts which they stated in their petition might suggest the ex pediency of making arrangements for the government of India for a shorter term, and, in the first, instance, for only one year. (Hear.) It was usually said, in reply to complaints of the government of India, " Oh, it works well." It might indeed work well for those who were employed in its administration, but the question was, did it work well for the people of India, and did it present any appearance of stability and permanence. Our Go vernment had unquestionably conferred great advan tages upon India, in the extinction of the Maharattas and other tribes, and in the establishment of internal peace. But all these advantages had been conferred by our military successes, by the courage of our officers and troops, and by the enterprise and genius of our generals. But, he would ask, what did India owe to our civil go vernment ? We had indeed effected great alterations, and the changes which had taken place in the distribu tion of property under our rule had probably been greater than were brought about in. England by the Norman conquest. But when he had gone through the provinces, and seen the ancient roads, and tem ples, and mosques, and all the other records of the great government by which we had been preceded, he owned that he had felt humiliated. (Hear.) What we had now to endeavour to discover, was a form of Go vernment by which a good administration might be given to India. We should also endeavour to obtain the assistance in the government of India of the most able and trustworthy persons ; and he cared not whether we resorted to the principle of election, or to that which he believed would be a more certain means of attaining the object, namely, that of judicious selection. But let them, as far as possible, exclude ordinary men and men of mediocrity from the government of India ; and, above all, let them the g e e xde y cl e u rem j e o e b t ber ef s; led a i n a d ee l e et them endeavour the with hdeakeveowur to have e a p n e d ep p lz bi a ty ed , and net a w le it n h e a te re t y a r t d e t f o t t h h e e r l interests e u d l g er e s , . a b o i oft t yt (Hear,h his noble friend had drawn t he attention of the house hear.) Lord BROUGHAM said that the subject to which dutywa s of up theon the g r e a G t e o s v t e p r n o possible i e b n l t e importance;and Parliament and of f imposed a this u l c e o dg n e t country d t o talents. a p p l y t o Heit w a a s l the no t r prepared s r o e u p r a c r e e s d o tof their say t h k a n t o w he agreed in the conclusions at which his noble friend had arrived after his experience in India and subsequent re flection at home, but he was prepared to give the sub ject his best attention whenever it should come before their lordships, and to approach it with the feelings which his noble friend had expressed, namely, a desire to consult for the good of the people of India, and thereby to consult for the true glory and honour of Eng land. An appeal had lienitir&to him (Lord Brougham) in consequence of a remark that had fallen from his noble friend upon a recent occasion, when this subject of India had been broached, and he had been called upon to vindicate the local administration of justice from the charges which had been brought against it. He might answer that appeal by repeating a statement which he had made on a former occasion, that upon a comparison of the results of the appeals from the English and from the native courts in India to the Judicial Committee of Privy Council, and disposed of by that court, it ap• peared that in the case of appeals from the native courts, extending over ten years, there was an average number of two reversals for two affirmances, while the appeals from the English courts showed seven reversals for one affirmance. But he must be permitted to say that it was by no means so certain as might be supposed from these figures that the administration of justice was supe rior in the native courts to what it was in the English courts. The real cause of the discrepancy was that in appeals from the native courts, when questions both of law and of fact came before the committee, the court being a state of comparative ignorance of the man ners and habits of the people, was inclined to sup port the decisions of the native judges, unless manifestly erroneous. (Hear, hear.) But in dealing with appeals from the English courts there was no such leaning at all on the part of the Judicial Committee. (Hear.) The comparative scantiness of the appeals showed that expense occasioned by delay and 'distance made the appellate jurisdiction capable of affording a very insuffi cient remedy for the natives. The noble lord had truly described the law taxes by which the suitor was so grievously oppressed. This was an enormity so prodi gious that without the most positive demonstration of the fact it would appear utterly incredible, and, as had it could uoulededor whichnly h be explained te government the of India financial ia ebmeebnarsraasi said, was labouring. What Bentham said sixty or seventy years ago in his immortal work—the greatest ornament to his great fame as a lawgiver and as a jurisconsult—in his protest against law taxes, was perfectly demonstrable, and the.way in which he had ettablished his point had never been answered, for in point of fact it was unan swerable. He said, "Itis a common remark, that he who objects to a tax is hound to find a substitute. I admit the principle, and I willingly accept the condition. My answer is—you may substitute for law taxes any one other tax that the wit of man can devise." (Hear.) Lord MONTEAGLE, as a member of the committee up stairs, would take the liberty of stating that the peti tion presented by the noble earl comprehended heads of inquiry into which the committee had, as yet, had no means of inquiring or examining at all. (Hear, hear.) It opened a vast ground for further examination, which it was not only necessary to enter upon but to exhaust before it would be possible to determine in whose hands the government of India ought to rest. He would take this opportunity of remarking that an impression foreign to the fact had gone abroad relative to what passed in the committee last session. It had been stated that the opinion of the committee was, that the legislature was prepared to decide upon the affairs of India at the close of the session. Now, so little was that the case that the resolution moved by a noble friend near him was framed expressly to exclude and negative that conclu sion, and simply to state that in the evidence before them there was a tendency to show that the principle of the government of India had been productive of good consequences. He thought it would be the greatest of all calamities to legislate in the present session as to the permanency of the government of India. (Hear, hear.) An eminent writer had charasterised " rash haste as the mother of delay," and any "rash haste " in legislating on the subject of India would not only be "the mother of delay " but most detrimental to the good government of India. (Hear, hear.) The powers already entrusted to the government superintending the affairs of India during the last twenty years had not been an adequate protection against the evil's which had been described, and Parliament ought not to rely on so frail a founda tion. There was no change better considered or more calculated to meet the evils which existed than the enact ment introduced into the last charter for the appoint ment of a law commission, for the purpose of improving the general administration of the law in India. But what happened ? The provision was found inconve nient, for it imposed a restraint on the action of the governors of India. They said, "We mean to apply to Parliament • for a repeal of the clause. They, however, never did apply to Parliament. But what did they do ? They practically repealed the act, by ceasing to fill up vacancies until by lapse of time the provision constitut ing the legal commission expired. (Hear.) By the act as it originally passed, whenever a vacancy occurred the court of directors were bound to return four candidates for the civil service of India, and the best of the foul. was to be chosen. But in 1837 they obtained an act of a very singular character. When the bill was introduced into the House of Commons, it enabled the board of directors and the Board of Control j o i n tly t o suspen d th e operation of the provision, and to recommend only one candidate for every vacancy. The bill was amended in their lordships' house, and in place of its being a bill authorising the suspension of the power, the words " to suspend or revive" were inserted, thereby showing that it was intended to revert to the original act. But from 1837 to 1853; that power had never been exercised, and the company was now left without the wholesome re straint imposed by the act of 1833. (Hear.) Last year, when the question of the law was under consideration, it was stated that full authority had been given to the East India Company to pass Mr. Macaulay's - code, or any other they might think fit • but up to this tim e it did not appear that any effectual step had been taken on the subject. He did not see that any approach had been made towards meeting the great difficulty arising from the present mode of appointing civil servants as judges in India. No legal education was provided. ' When a man was appointed to a judicial office, it was utterly in defensible that, under any circumstances, he should be removed from that judicial office, and, at an increased salary, be appointed to a political or revenue office. The fact was, that under the present system men were ap pointed to the appellate jurisdiction in India who had never presided in a tribunal of the first instance. It was, as had been formerly said, like teaching young sur geons by making them practice living dissections. If Parliament intended to do its duty towards India, he trusted they would not pass any permanent act during the present year. (Hear, hear.) Lord BROUGHTON said he saw no reason whatever why Parliament should pass a bill fixing any particular number of years. It appeared to him that any act on this subject ought to be like any other act of Parliament, liable to be repealed whenever it should be thought ne ce.sary. The reason for fixing stated periods in former bills was this. The East India Company were a great commercial company, in possession of most important vested interests, having large assets ; and in the act of 1833 it was thought proper that a certain term should be given them to realise those assets, and wind up the great concern with which they had, been so long entrusted. A bargain was, therefore made between the then Government and that great commercial corporation. But now the East . India. Company would cease to have any such privileges. They would cease in fact to be in possession of any one character entitling them to more than an ordinary act. (Hear.) He had not heard this proposal mentioned before, but having in the course of the day named the suggestion to one of the highest Indian authorities—a gentleman formerly connected with the Indian government, and latterly with the home Government--that gentleman said, " I see no objec tion to it, and moreover I proposed it to a noble lord myself in the year 1832. . At that time, no doubt, the East India Company had not wound up its concerns ; its commercial character had not been put an end to ; it had large assets, and it was only in consequence of this that I did not make the proposal to those who had the drawing up of the India Bill." (Hear, hear.) But no such reason existed now. Th e E as t India Company had now no claim upon the country or upon Parliament. They had only the right to ask Parliament whether they had so conducted themselves in the government of those great territories as to entitle them to a share in their future government, as trustees for the Crown. (Hear.) No doubt a great quantity of fresh matter was rising up every day. The three petitions which had recently been presented contained materials for long and searching examination, and the more he considered the subject the greater were the difficulties which presented themselves to his mind. With new information came new lights, and, so far from any one of the points being speedily settled, there were various matters on which the best thinker and the closest investigator might justly doubt. (Hear, hear.) The noble earl, on presenting the last petition, expatiated on the question of education, and said on that point we were stopped in limine. And why ? Because if you educate the people of India be yond a certain extent the people of India will cease to belong to England. He quite agreed with the noble earl, and that opinion was entertained by Sir Thomas Monroe, Sir Charles Metcalf, and other eminent au thorities on that subject. He had mentioned these mat ters for the purpose of showing the enormous difficulties which existed on the subject, and trusted that the sug gestion which he had thrown out would receive the con sideration of the Government. Lord GLENELG said that the bill of 1833 was founded on an agreement and compromise between the parties, and unless mutual sacrifices had been made it would have been almost impossible to effect any change in the government of India. Now, with respect to the question of education. It was the universal opinion in England that it was the duty of this country to com municate to the natives of India the best education in our power. (Hear, hear.) This was our duty and our mission. It was the vocation to which we were called. We were bound to perform our duty unflinchingly, and in this as in every case it would be found that if we per formed our duty, consulting only our duty, we should be best consulting our safety. It had been truly said that the natural condition of man was progress, and he was convinced that the scruples of any legislator would not retard that progress. It was in our power to make that progress formidable and dangerous. It was not in our power to nullify it, and say with respect to education, " Thus far shall it go, and no further." (Hear, hear.) Was it our bounden duty, was it our best safety, to pause, to scruple at a certain point, and say, "Be this thy great circumference—be these our bounds ?" No ; but to say, " We are called on to do our duty both to God and man, and at any hazard we will execute that duty." (Hear, hear.) It was impossible to .retard the progress that was now slowly taking place in India, and if ever the day should arrive when the native would be in a capacity to govern himself, it would be a most glorious day for England. We would be looked at with more affection, with greater good feeling, with more gratitude, and establish a bond and security against any danger which the wit of man could invent. (Hear, hear.) He would not now enter into the question of the future government of India, but would just advert to the un happy state of the law throughput that country, which afforded matter for the deepest consideration. Provi sions were introduced in the act of 1833 expressly to meet that commission provided that there should be one law throughout the whole of India. The law commis sion was directed to frame a general code, and the same to the e A En g g e l n is e h ra a l s eo w d e e l w l as as t f h ra e m n e a d ti f v o e r Is t a a h u n wb e j E p ew n u cat g rp ss iih s fo e m h , ae a a rp n : M d l it was a rule wisely laid down that if applyy a e j nt into that country he must not ex tthoebEe u o r n o e pe o w a f n a s o privileged that va cl s a t ss ierr lc to o ry w, wthereefascuth subject to take their cases for trial at a natives to compel them only to the S u p r eme an Co a u h r s t o , l e u x te cep d t en in ial cas of es juosftipueetttoy tashe )s that a e u u l t t moment the natives n hadalluded was intended to act to which he law. The corrected so far as the law com mission distance of 1,000 miles. did o ( t H p e o a s r s , e h s s e a t r h . e ) p r A o t t e t e h ti e o n p present theent and it was correct the evil. It was but " fo u r hnohnr d no intention of occupying , The Earl of DERBY had r o e cisstsaeiydo.ninw(fHaascetcauaru,nedheerrauerea.ld)4 it w w as hy qu i i t te h i ad mpo u s o s t ibl b e which he confessed that the time of their lordships for sh mo t re u e th u a te n r a in v t e u ry a f u e y w th m in o g like a discussion of topics with - ments, for it was not his wish en was treated avteerdy p b i m y his rfe e n t o ly b l ea acquainted—topics friend uai a thorou 1 knowledge of the subject, and which Pideswhich hhad a petition with m w h u i s c t h u h u a m d m b e u e u n d en t h fo u tc r e e d s tthfualpresented nte vi d hu to ha - ships. Alth oug h h e cou ld no t sa y that, as far as his limited informatio n wen t, h e was pre pared to acquiesce in the s wee pi ng conc l us i ons at w hi c h hi s noble friend l powerattention and oafb ability r whichlo d had arrived, yet he had listened with great respect I to the statement of evils and inconveniences which his noble friend had vouched to a great extent on his own authority. (Hear.) The object for which he alone rose was to express his concurrence, to a great extent, in what had fallen from his noble friend on the cross bench, and to ask the noble earl at the head of her Majesty's Government to reconsider his determination of legislating permanently for the affairs of India during the present session. He frankly admitted that at the time when, filling the station which the noble earl now occupied, he had the honour of proposing a committee of investigation into the affairs of India, he, did so in the hope that the inquiries of the committee might be so rar advanced this year, that it might be competent to the Government, guided and aided by their labours, to deal with the question in a satisfactory manner. The little progress, however, which the committee had made, owing to the immensity of the subject, and the con stantly increasing demands on their attention, led„,him to the con c l us i on t h at if the Government legislated during the present session they must legislate wholly irrespective of the labours and opinions of the committee in that and the other house of Parliament. He believed that the committee had only heard evidence on two topics, and it was perfectly open to them to call for other evidence which they might think necessary even on that limited portion of the inquiry, and it was clear that further information might be given which would induce them to re-open it. He understood the two com mittees divided their inquiries into eight heads, and only two had been gone into, namely, the constitution of the government at home and the naval and military estab lishments of the Indian service. If, as her Majesty's Government had said, they were prepared to legislate permanently, he hoped they did not mean to legislate piecemeal. Least of all could they, with proper respect to the labours of the two committees, legislate on the constitution of the home government without a full in quiry into the other topics which were left for investiga tion, because, after all, concurring, as he did, in that which must be the opinion of every man among their lordships, that the object which Parliament had in view was to frame such a form of government as would pro duce the greatest contentment, and advance the mate rial prosperity and moral progress of India—such a form of government as would work best for the benefit of the inhabitants of India, and uot for the inhabitants of this country merely—looking, he would repeat, to that as the object which Parliament had in view, and the ques tion being whether it was desirable or not to continue the existing machinery of Indian government, he con tended it was impossible to escape from this conclusion, that the propriety of continuing or modifying that system of government must depend upon the working of that government, as proved by experience in the course of the administration of Indian affairs. The government of India was now practically on its trial, whether uprn the whole it had worked beneficially for India or not. There might be theoretical anomalies in its constitution, but the great test and trial of its merits was, whe ther the administration of th e government had pro duced benefits commensurate with, or greater than, the advantages derived from any other system. Inquiry must be made into the financial, the political, the judicial, and the moral system of the government, and in solving the question whether that government should be continued in jts present shape or be modified, the test must be—what-had been the practical result of our administration of Indian affairs under all those dif ferent heads on whi c h th e comm i ttee had not even com menced their labours ? He confessed his opinion on that point was strengthened by what had fallen from his no ble friend over the way (Lord Broughton) who was for so long a period President of the Board of Control. His noble friend had reminded their lordships that in the new legislation upon which the Government 'were about to enter, it would not be necessary to limit the ope ration h o a f d th an e bill epp for ert u t n en ity or e rty years, leengialating for I n di a j us t as might be done with any other act of Parliament, which might be passed in one session and repealed in the next. But if this were true, what was to becom e of permanent legislation for India ? Was it wise or statesmanlike to pass an act, and then to repeal it ? Lord BROUGHTON— You leave it like any other act of Parliament. The Earl of DERBY admitted this to be the case, but if it were wished to make a measure a monument of Parliamentary wisdom, it would not do to legislate this year, and call the measure permanent, and then to come back next year for the purpose of repealing this act of legislation. He was sure that no member of the Govern ment could have in this matter any other desire but what was common to their lordships, namely—that their legis lation should be creditable to the country and to Parlia ment, and should give satisfaction to the people of India. Upon this species of legislation, differing happily from any other, it was hardly possible that party struggles could be brought to bear, and surely the inconvenience of a temporary act was not to be measured, for a si ng l e moment with the para moun t i nconven i ence of legislating —not only without information but absolut e ly i n repu diation of those co mm itt ees which Parliament had ap pointed to obtain information on the subject. If he might venture to suggest any course—which he knew he had no right to do—he would suggest the introduction of a continuing act, not exceeding four or five years, but for a term sufficiently long to enable the committee to complete the investigation, and to enable the Government to weigh the recommendations of the committee, provi sion being made that Parliament should be at liberty to legislate before that time, if it thought proper, instead of having recourse to an annual renewal, which would un settle the minds of the people of Ind'a. By taking a continuance of the present system for a period of five years, with a reservation to Parliament of power to deal with the question, he thought there would be the best chance of solving the great and difficult problem with which Parliament would have to deal, and of legislating in a manner which would not only conduce to the in terests of the people of India, but would redound to the honour of the empire generally. The Earl of ABERDEEN deeply participated in the hope expressed by the noble earl, that we might arrive at the result which would prove most beneficial to the subjects of the great empire for which we were about to legislate, but he could not agree with hi m i n thi n ki ng that it would be desirable to introduce a co n ti nu i ng act with a term of four or five years. Of all the suggestions which he had heard, this appeared to him to be the least adapted to effect the object desired. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) had heard that the committees of both houses had arrived at a clear opinion that the inquiry had been completed so far as to enable the Legislature to deal with the question of the home government. Though the committee of their lordships' house had not expressed a decided opinion, yet he understood that the inquiry was closed so far as related to that portion of the inquiry, and he felt that Government were competent to deal with it without embracing the whole number of heads into which the committee had divided the subject of inquiry. The petition which had been presented no doubt com prised very important matter for inquiry, and detailed many grievances which were worthy of their lordships' attention. Their lordships would be justified in giving this petition their most serious consideration, but when a committee was now sitting for the very purpose of in quiry into those topics which had been urged by the noble . earl, and when, as he understood, the judicial system in particular was under the consideration of the committee at the present moment, he confessed that it appeared to him to be rather inconvenient, and indeed irregular, to go into those topics into which the com mittee were inquiring. He had heard a great deal of the lamentable government of India, and the noble earl had said that he felt humiliated when he compared the public works which we had executed with those left be hind them by our predecessors. He confessed he thought that an insufficient test of the merits of a Government. He would as soon draw an inference from the pyramids of Egypt, and conclude that their builders were superior to us in moral qualifications. He believed that the Go vernment of this country had been attended with great and extensive blessings to the people of India, and that, as compared with all former governments, we could have no fear in putting ourselves forward. It was still our desire to increase and to extend those blessings, and he confessed that, as the result of the inquiry now carried on before the committee, he hoped that the Government would be able to produce a measure which would tend materially to improve the government of India. He believed it was necessary that the present system should form the foundation of any future system of government, though it might be susceptible of some modifications. It was too early to express any opinion about there, but he must protest against what had been said by the noble earl about a continuing act. The Marquis of SALISBURY hoped the Govern ment would reconsider their decision on the question of legislating permanently during the present session. The conversation here terminated. The County Polls Election Bill was, on the motion of the Earl of CARLISLE, read a second time, after a declaration by the Earl of DERBY, that he should not, individually, offer any opposition to the progress of the measure. Several bills on the table were forwarded a stage, and their lordships adjourned at a quarter before eight o'clock - •,. • • HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. WIGTON ELECTION. Mr. MILES reported from this committee that it had come to a resolution declaring Sir John M`Taggart duly elected. The Windsor Election Committee were sworn at the table. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Imperial Continental Gas, and the Saint George's Harbour Bills, were read a second time. PETITIONS. A number of petitions were presented against the ad mission of Jews into Parliament. Mr. BOWYER presented a petition from distillers in Ireland, in favour of British spirits being placed on the same footing, in regard to drawbacks, as foreign spirits. Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Canterbury, in favour of the reduction of national armaments. Sir G. STRICKLAND presented a petition from Lancashire, praying for the !imitation of the daily working of machinery in factories. Mr. TURNER presented a petition from Liverpool, against taxes on knowledge. Mr. MUNDY presented . a petition from Birmingham in favour of the London universities being allowed to return members to Parliament. Mr. BANKES presented a petition from Dorset, against the Crystal Palace being opened on Sundays. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from a place in Warwickshire, against the grant to Maynooth. Mr. BAINES presented two petitions from Hull, in favour of the removal of Jewish disabilities. Sir J. PAKINGTON prefiented a petition from Won. cester, praying for some alteriltion in the present mode of levying the income tax. LISBURN ELECTION. The SPEAKER intimated that he had received a let ter from the parliamentary agents, stating that it was not intended to proceed with the petition against the return for Lisburn. CLITHEROE ELECTION. On the motion of Mr..GASKELL, the evidence before the Clitheroe election committee' was ordered to be printed. ATTORNEYS' AND SOLICITORS' CERTIFICATE DUTY. Lord R. GROSVENOR brought up this bill, and amidst considerable laughter and cheers, - propond that it be read a first time. He said it was not his intention to propose the second reading until after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his financial statement. After the right hon. gentleman's decided expression of opinion last night, he had no doubt he would take the question into his serious consideration, with the view of remedying the injustice complained of. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday, the 13th of April. THE LEVEES OF THE LORD-LIEUTENANT. Mr. F. FRENCH gave notice that to-morrow he would ask the chief Secretary for Ireland, whether directions had been sent to Ireland to discontinue the expense of inserting in the Dublin newspapers the usual notices about the levees held by the Lord-Lieutenant. THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 12, 1853, BETHLEM HOSPITAL. Sir B. HALL wished to ask the hon. gentleman, the Under-Secretary for the Home Department whether Government intended to take any steps to prevent a recurrence of the cruelties referred to in the report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into the state of Bethlent Hospital ? The income of the 'hospital was about 20,0001., and its entire management rested with the corporation of London. It was ex pressly exempted from the inspection of the Lunacy Commissioners, and he wished to know if it was intended to. bring in a bill to abolish that exemption, or, whether any further report upon the subject was to be laid on the table. Mr. FITZROY was not aware that any further re port was to be laid upon the table, but a bill h a d b een introduced into the o th er house f Parliament upon the subject of the Lunacy Law, which would abolish the exemption to which the honourable baronet referred to. HOP DUTIES. In reply to Mr. SMITH, Mr. WILSON stated that there was an order in the hop duty return, so far as it related to the Rochester district. The return put the assessment doWn at eight and a half acres, but last year it was 79 acres. There must, therefore, be a mistake in the former figure. PASSING TOLLS. Mr. HUDSON wished to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he is prepared to assure the house that he will bring in a bill in reference to the pass ing tolls during this session, in sufficient time to enable the house to pass it. Mr. CARDWELL said one of the harbour commis sioners had recommended that Ramsgate habour should be made self-supporting ; but this report was entirely different to others which had been made on the subject, and he was examining the case of this and other har bours, in order to satisfy himself as to what steps ought to be taken in the matter. ACCELERATION OF THE MAILS TO THE NORTH. Mr. HUDSON wished to ask the Secretary of the Treasury whether the attention of the Postmaster-Geme ml has been called to several memorials presented to the late Postmaster-General by a large deputation from the North of England, calling upon his lordship to expedite the mails to the boroughs -of Sunderland, Newcastle upon-Tyne, North and South Shields, and all the places north of York ' • and whether he can i n f orm the house what course the Postmaster-General is about to adopt to give those populous districts the advantage of an improved postal communication ; especially as letters, if forwarded by the Great Northern Railway, could be delivered three hours earlier in the important towns be fore referred to. Mr. WILSON said he had great pleasure in inform ing the hon. member that his noble friend the Postmas ter-General had had under his consideration these va rious memorials, and he had come to the conclusion that the postal communication with these important places might be very materially accelerated, but it must be ob vious that the details for carrying out such an arrange ment must occupy some considerable time. His noble friend, however, hoped to be able to adopt the accele rated time by the middle of June next. CRIME IN IRELAND. Mr. WHITESIDE wished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether a bill has been prepared, or is in course of preparation, to carry out the recommendation of the committee which sat last session to inquire into the causes of crime and outrage in certain districts in Ireland, to amend the law relating to the formation of the jurors' lists in that country. Sir J. YOUNG said no bill was prepared, nor could he say that any bill was in the course of preparation, but the subject would not be lost sight of by the Govern ment. SOUTHAMPTON ELECTION. Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT presented a petition from a person named Bowyer, who had been committed to the custody of the Serjeant-at-Arms for refusing to make an affirmation before the Southampton Election Com mittee in the form prescribed by the Act of Parliament, praying to be released. The honourable member, after presenting the petition, said the committee were of opinion that the refusal was not the result of impro priety or improper purpose, but were out of the man's own conscientious scruples, and he begged, therefore, to move that the man be di sc h arge d f rom custody with out payment of fees. Mr. S. WORTLEY (the Recorder of London) took the opportunity which this motion afforded him of draw ing the attention of the Government to the present un satisfactory state of the law with respect to oaths and affirmations. An exception was made by the statute in favour of Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, but none in favour of the man who entertained conscientious scruples against taking an oath. This omission often placed courts of justice in a very difficult situation, and he would therefore suggest that 'the law should be so amended as to leave it optional with a court of law to exempt parties from taking an oath where they were convinced that the parties were sincere in their objec tions. (Hear, hear.) The motion was then agreed to. COMMITTALS FOR CRIME. Mr. W. FOX moved an address for tabular returns of the number of committals for crime in Ireland during each of the years from 1841 to 1852, inclusive ; of the number of committals in England and Wales for each year of the same period ; and, in each case, of the num ber of accused persons unable to read or write, and their centesimal proportion to the whole. Agreed to. BRIDGNORTH ELECTION. Sir J. V. SHELLEY moved that the petition from certain electors of Bridgnorth, which he presented the other night, be printed with the votes. Mr. WHITMORE objected to the motion. He said the petition presented by the hon. baronet was signed by the refuse and mob of Bridgnorth. (Hear.) He considered himself that there was not a more respecta ble borough than Bridgnorth, and he hoped the house would not be led away by party feeling to do an injus tice to the electors. After a few words from Mr. COBDEN, the motion was agreed to. . INDIAN AFFAIRS. Mr. WILSON having moved the adjournment of the house at rising until Monday next, Mr. BRIGHT said he had given notice that he would put a question as to the course which the Government would take with respect to the future government of India. Ho believed the house would agree with him, that at this particular juncture it was scarcely possible a more import ant question than this could come before it, and he felt himself justified in alluding to it as one of the representa tives of that constituency which was undoubtedly more deeply interested in the proper solution of the question of the future government of India than any other constitu ency of the - United Kingdom. (Hear t hear.) Another ground was this—that in the year 1848 he had obtained, and presided over, a committee for the purpose of inquiring into the obstacles that prevent the growth of cotton and the development of industry and cultivation in India, and in the year 1850 had brought before the house a proposi tion to send a royal commission to India for the purpose of investigating on the spot what were the obstacles to an ex tended cultivation of the raw material of the greatest manufacture of this country in India. (Hear.) That com mission was refused by the Government of the day ; but he was able to say most distinctly that it was approved of by many most distinguished men in that house. It was strongly approved of by Sir Robert Peel, who spoke to him about it both before the motion was brought on and after la _lt was approved of by the tight hon. gentleman who was now First Lord of the Admiralty ; it was ap proved of by Lord George Bentinck ; and it was not, he thought, disapproved of by the noble lord who at the time was at the head of the Government ; but it was opposed by the Indian Government and the President at the time of the Board of Control. Having made those efforts to obtain an inquiry, he felt justified in asking the Govern ment not to be precipitate in any legislation they now un dertook, for although an inquiry had been refused, it since appeared to be necessary by not less than three Govern. ments that an inquiry should take place. About two years ago the noble lord the member for the city of London announced that the Government intended to appoint a committee preparatory to the consideration of the future government of India ; but the noble lord went out of office just at the moment the committee was about to be nominated, in the month of February of the last year. On the accession to power of the Government of Lord Derby the committee was nominated, and sat during the remain der of last session. And during this session, when the Go vernment of Lord Aberdeen succeeded that of Lord Derby, the inquiry was still considered necessary, and the com mittee during this session resumed its labours. (Hear, hear.) He considered it a most unfortunate thing for India that its Government, so far as it was represented in that house, was one of the most fluctuating, and uncertain, and he was afraid of an incapable character. He did not mean incapable as to the incapacity of individuals, but as to the particular circumstances of its constitution. (Hear, hear.) Had the house observed that within ten months, in the year 1852, the President of the Board of Control had been changed no less than four times? In the beginning of February in the last year the President of the Board of Control was Lord Broughton, and he would say nothing of his administration of Indian affairs, ex cept that he was one of the most contented and somnolent of statesmen. (Laughter.) After him they had Mr. Fox Maule (Lord Panmure) as President of the Board of Control, arid he remained in that important office just three weeks. On the fall of the Government of the noble lord, the right hon. member for Stamford was placed in the position of President of the Board of Control, and he remained in office until the change of Government before Christmas when he was succeeded by th e r i g ht h on. member for Hal ., _ fax. Ho believed all those gentlemen were very well meaning, but nobody ever believed that they knew a t T i lie ord re eda about India than th e i r ne i g hb ours. (Hear, h laugh.) No person, so f ar as h e h eard, had ever edairscA),v that they paid particular attention to questions connected with India ; and yet, though a man had bee se cretary a t . War for sever a l y ears , or C hancellor of then Exchequer", Or anything else, by mere party rout i ne he as put at th e head of the Government of India, or in an wy other o ffi ce to which it might suit the convenience of those making a Cabinet to appoint him. (Hear, hear.) Not only k i n the been fou r p res id ents of the Boaz-d of Control wit hi d n the time he h a d ment i oned, but they had actually had six secretaries, all of whom had seats in that house. (H ear .) The house would see there was no continuous government in the Board of Control, and there was naturally a great casually into indisposition on th e part of persons coming that office to g ra ppl e w i t h a great question like the govern ment of India (Hear, hear.) There was an inquiry going on by a committee, on which many eminent men were sitting, and he understood that at the commencement of their labours the right hon. gentleman the member for Stamford divided the inquiry into eight heads or branches, and placed at the beginning the circumstances and method of the home Government. He (Mr. Bright) was not a member of that committee, and therefore could only speak from hearsay. He understood that the first branch of the inquiry had been pretty much gone through ; but the house would see that that was precisely the least impor tant portion of the inquiry, because there was no well informed member of the house who was not acquainted with the condition of the home Government —the theory and means of acting the private wrangles between Leadenhall-street and Cannon-row, and the previous com munications, by which an opening quarrel might be avoided, in order that discredit might not be thrown on the whole system. (Hear, hear.) All that was the last thing that was necessary to be inquired into, yet that was put first on the list ; and he understood it was considered that for the purpose of legislation further inquiry was not necessary, and that legislation might be forthwith com menced. (Hear, hear.) That which would describe the true character of the Government was to be found in the condition of the people that were governed, yet the whole condition of the natives of India was left entirely un touched. (Hear.) There had been nothing in the shape of adverse evidence produced before the committee, but there were different witnesses that might be examined, and to enable them to form an opinion whether the Indian government or the Board of Control was good or bad, it was right amijust that impartial witnesses should be heard, and that they should not confine the investigation to the evidence of persons who were connected with the Indian government, and had been for the most part of their lives in the service of the East India Company. (Hear.) He begged to call thetttenion of the house to the petitions that had been presented from various parties in India— some of them European and Christian inhabitants, and some of them native inhabitants of the presidencies. (Hear.) It was said that some of the witnesses impugned that tes timony, and said the opinion of the natives was not be taken ; but if the house acted upon the evidence of men of that character, they would find, in regard to their government of India, that they had made a most fatal mistake, and they would discover it at a time when they would be without a remedy. (Hear, hear.) In a pe tition from the British and Christian inhabitants of Bengal, after referring to the question of internal government, it was stated that it would be expedient to make the future arrangements of the government of India for a shorter term of years, and at first for one year. He w ou ld a l so read a petitio n f rom th e native and other inhabitants of the Madras presidency ; and he had received a letter from an intelligent person in Madras, stating that if an inquiry were set on foot, he would undertake to establish the statements contained in that petition. (Hear.) In that petition it was stated that " whilst your petitioners regret that, owing to the want of sufficient time, and the insuper able difficulty o f ge tti ng access to the financial documents, they were unable to state the vast number of major and minor grievances to which they are subject under the operation of the existing system of government, they en treat that those they have imperfectly touched upon may , meet with the patient consideration of the house, as well as that an opportunity may be afforded of substantiating the facts they have stated before an impartial commission of inquiry and investigation, assembled in India, composed of persons in and out of public employ, and Europeans and natives conjointly." (Hear, hear.) He had another petition, from the native merchants, ship owners, bankers, and other inhabitants of Bombay, which concluded in these words :—" Your petitioners pray that the act now existing be re-enacted for one year only, so as to permit time for the important negotiations which seem so indispensable in the construction of a new constitution for India, especially as patient care and attention are not likely to be bestowed upon them if immediately or hastily gone into during the political excitement now prevailing in England." He (Mr. Bright) presumed that the peti tioners referred to the change of Government last year. There was another petition, from the Bombay Association and other native inhabitants Of the Bombay presidency, in which "they humbly pray your honourable house to em body, in any measure of legislation which comes before you for the government of India, the principle here set forth, and that the house will not rest content, but will adjourn the final settlement of the plan for the Indian government until all available information from trust worthy sources be laid before you." It was also proposed that they should limit the existence of the act for the future government of India to a period of ten years, so that the interests of so many millions of British subjects might be more frequently brought under the consideration of the British Parliament. He could refer to other evi dence in favour of inquiry, and showing a desire that there should be an alteration in the existing govern ment of India, It was stated that the law was ad ministered in the company's courts under circumstances that were productive of great delay, great expense, and, a virtual denial of justice. It was said that the police of India was in such a state that there was little security for either life or property ; that the police themselves were little better than the dacoits or gang robbers that infested the country ; that the taxes were not levied in a manner that was the least injurious to the industry of the country; that they were extremely onerous, and that reform was necessary ; and, to illustrate the bad condition of the roads, it was stated that within 35 miles of Calcutta, on the high road to the north, a bridge was washed away in 1847, and had not yet been repaired—(hear, hear);--that in conse quence of the state of the roads it was impossible to intro duce articles brought from abroad into the interior of the country, or to bring from the interior the produce of India; and it was complained that the railroads in course of being made were proceeding with dilatoriness, from want of energy, complexity of management, and hopelessness of result, a statement that could not be made of a railway in any other part of the world. (Hear, hear.) The state of irrigation was considered infinitely less satisfactory than under the old government of India ; the canals and reser voirs were allowed to go out of repair, and during the last few years a famine had occurred in a particular district that might have been prevented if the Government paid ordinary attention to irrigation ; by securing the vast mass of water that fell in one season of the year to sustain the productiveness of the soil continuously through the whole year. (Hear, hear.) He begged to call attention to a let ter which appeared in the Bombay Gazette from Surat, in which the writer described the means that were taken by officers of the Government to prevent native servants of the Government, and Europeans too, from bringing any information before the British public. (Hear, hear.) The condition of a people was the true index by which to judge of the character of a government, and he begged, in refer ence to that subject, to read a statement from the Bombay Times of the 14th of April, 1852. It might be that these were merely statements published in a newspaper ; but if similar statements regarding any county in England appeared in a London newspaper, they would e ith er mee t with a denial or measures wou ld be adopted to prevent the repetition of them. By a statement in the Bombay Times The population was described as living in the utmost penury. It was impossible, it was said, for masters to remain as. they were, and that from year to year they must continue in a downward path, unless the present system was arrested and reversed. An inquiry had been made into the reasons why cotton could not be grown in India, and the report of the committee, on which there were three East India directors, was unanimously agreed to. In that report they made the following statement with regard to the general condition of the people, and he begged the house to bear in mind that all the witnesses were servants of the Government, and being so, he considered they gave their evidence in a manner that was not in the slightest degree tinged with any unfavourable bias for the Govern ment, but they gave it honestly and honourably, and in a manner with which he was satiated. The committee, in their report, appealed to the evidence of almost every witness, to show that th e cond i tion of the cultivating population was one of extreme poverty—that they wore obliged to apply to the money lender for the means of obtaining seed, giving security for the loan on the growing crops, which, on coming to maturity, were disposed of to him at a price more regulated by his will than the standard of the open market, and that the cultivator often paid for the loan 40 or 50 per cent., or even more than that. How was it that the money lender obtained that power over the cultivators ? He could not obtain that usurious rate of in terest if it wore not for the poverty and helplessness of the population cultivating the soil, to whom the money was thus lent. And whatever might be said as to the money lenders being the cause of the mischief to the cultivator, they were only the secondary cause, the population being reduced to misery by the unaccountable neglect of the Go vernment. (Hear.) He would mention another fact on the authority of the hon. member for Guildford, who had been examined for two days before the committee. In reply to a question that was put to the hon, member, as to the amount the Indian Government had expended during four teen years—since the renewal of the Charter Act—from 1834 to 1848—in substantial improvements for the good of the people, on roads, bridges, canals, tanks, and wo r ks o f that nature, he stat e d the amount so expended was 1,400,0001., or 100,0001. a year ; while the town of Man chester had expended, he was going to say, double the sum on improvements for a population of 400,000 persons. The hon. member was asked the amount of revenue obtained by the Indian Government during those fourteen years, and he (Mr. Bright) did not receilect the precise answer the hon. gentleman gave, but tlie/Spers of the Indian-Govern ment showed that, during that period, they had extracted 316,000,0001. from the population of India. (Hear, hear.) If any man admitted that fact to be true, it afforded a fair ground for doubting whether it would be wise in that house or the Government to propose a permanent continuance of the present Government of India, without a more rigid in quiry than had yet been established. There was also the question of the revenue of India. In 1842, when Sir Robert Peel brought forward his budget, he referred to the reve nues of India, stating that he was quite aware there might appear to be no direct and immediate connection between the finances ofindia and those of this country, but it would be a superficial view of our relations with India, said the right hon. baronet, which should omit the consideration of this subject. , He (Mr. Bright) had not got any account of the revenues of India since 1849, but he would state to the house the deficiency which had arisen in the nine years pre ceding 1849. In 1840 the deficiency amounted tot ,400,000/ . in 1841, to 1,700,000/. ;in 1842, to 1 , 70 0,000/. ; 1843 , t z 1,300,000/. •in 1844, to 770,000 ;in 1 845, to 740,000/, i n 1846, to 1;500,000/. ;in 1 847, to 90 7,000/ the . • 1 -- 1,900,000/. ; and in 1849, to 2 ,300,000/, • ;111).11. 848, to there eing a defi ciency of 15,500,000/. in the ten years fro m 1840 to 1819 inclusive ; and, with the exception of one year, there had been a deficiency of every year since. The house was well aware that for 60 years past it had been constantly as serted by the Indian Government that India could supply cotton for the manufactures of this house believe that durin 1817, 11881r111.18t17; 35 W y o ea u n ld a t z: h o we imported from India aglarger amount of cotton on the average of those three years than we imported in 1849 or 1852. The avera f 182,000 bgealersom 7to 1819 was 184,000 in 1842, 85/ the although in 1850 and 1 . imports were somewha't less than 169 000 - bales, 3Sfr andlarger ; in 1852 they had fallen to rice.) Th ° bales ; ( • Mangles : The p . n _ rico Iron, member for Guildford referred to the qu n estio ant l y rom —but was not th price of cotton from di America subject to precisely the same causes of fitletUatiell? num ber (Hear.) In 1818 we obtained from India a /argereleited of bales of cotton than we had from the whole of th t e li guantity States of America ; and while of late Ye- 1 7 e, reasing , the of cotton coming from India had I ",T en largely on the quantity from the United States had 7 increase. (An Hon. Me a;iference at all. Now last In the matter of this ce Member : Freignt freight there was scarcely an9 ,, i s - and yarns from year the exports of cotton .i g ° b e i n g Very nearly half try amounted to 30,000, , -7 Ki n gdom ; and even in the whole exports of the United _., ra d exclusively of the sum manufactures of that Brest less than 45,0 00 , 000 /. was expended in wages and expenses I paid for cotton, not,_rimiti kinds incident to the manu factures. Now he contended that it would be a scandalous sacrifice of the interests alike of England and of India, if this question should be settled on any other principle than this, that, having conquered India—whether rightly or wrongly was not now the question—it was the duty of this country to establish the best possible government for the millions of people who were-subject to our control in that part of the world.- (Hear, hear;) He would read a short extract from a letter he had a-m.:.ntly received from a gen tleman of high clkirkter in India: It was dated the 14th of October, 1852, and the writ . craiial—" In India we were e a h ll a in ite e r x ac pe t: ta w t h io en n , o to f I .: h o e: nr ra h o n ag r ve n e n p d i n a g nin al z te em m e t n io t n , swien find the act of 1833 about to be intriiduCed with scarcely any alterations—Whigs, Teri* Derbiites, and Russellites being apparently agreed that India is a great bore, and the sooner its aff are decided the better." Now what he (Mr. Brightairs ) wanted the Government to do to-night was, that if they had made up their minds as to the course they were about to take with respect telridia, to say so. He hoped they had not made up their iiitnds, and that that would be the answer he should recePie - from the noble lord. The noble lord might say that he had gone into this question further th an h e ought to do on an occasion like that. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) But he hoped the noble lord would appreciate the magnitude of this question, and the objects he (Mr. Bright) had in view in bringing it forward. He was importunate on this auestion be cause h e wa s con vinced of it s magnitude. He had twice brought this sub ject before th e h ouse, and had been instrumental, with friends of his in Lancashire, in sending out to India a most intelligent and able gentleman (the late Mr. Alex. Mackay), for the purpose of obtaining- information for themselves, by means of large private subscription s ; and although it pleased Providence not to permit that gentleman to return to England, yet he (Mr. Bright) was bound to say that the information which he had furnished then] only confirmed the impression he (Mr. Bright) had felt all along, and deepened his conviction of the great necessity for thoroughly investigating this subject before the house came to any positive and conclusive opinion on this question. Therefore it was that he asked the noble lord —and in doing so he disclaimed the slightest idea of embarrassing the Government --whether the Government had come to any decided opinion upon this question ; if they had, whether it was in favour of a temporary or a long re newal ; and, if so, would he state the number of years, and tell the house when the measure which was to be brought forward would be brought under the consideration of the house ? (Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—I cannot, in spite of the disavowal of the honourable gentleman, help complaining of his conduct this evening. (Hear, hear.) He has taken the opportunity of a form a l mo ti on th at this house adjourn until Monday—(hear, hear)—not for the purpose of asking a certain question of which he has given notice—not for the purpose of even stating facts and making explanations which might be introductory to this question, but he has taken the opportunity of making a speech of an hour's length in utter condemnation of the Government which for the last seventy years has ruled over the 'terzitory of India. (Hear, hear.) It is obvious that such was his in tention. Without saying whether that condemnation was deserved or not, I say that it is obvious that his purpose was to say that that Government was to be utterly condemned, and that something new was to be put in its place ; for if a regular motion expressing that purpose had been made, the honourable gentleman would no doubt have been met by those honourable members who take a different view of this question, and who would have expressed their sen timents upon it at as great length as he has done. (Hear, hear.) I must confess that the statement of the honour. able gentleman does not all convince me of the wisdom of the views which he has propounded. Neither, sir, does the tone in which he undertakes this question induce me to think that he does approach it in that spirit in which a question so grave ought to be approached. (Cheers.) He is ready to say that he expects from my candour such an interpretation of his motives that I am to believe that nothing but the purest desire for the welfare of India and the good of his country animates him in his speech. lam not to utter a word—though no doubt . imputations are easily enough made against a Government as against indi viduals ; but, on the other hand, while he demands so much candour, while he lays the ground for assuming that I am bound to be frank and candid on this subject, his own candour is very small in amount. (Hear.) He seems to take it for granted that we can propose no measure for the government of India unless we are animated by some dis creditable motive. Now I beg to say, without making any imputation upon him, that the view of the Government is, to do that which they conceive is the most fitting for the welfare of the 1 00,000,000 of people who are subject to the sway of this country. (Hear, hear.) Now I beg, before answering in any way the question of the honourable gen tleman, to state wh a t h as occurred of late. It is well known to the house that the government of India—which has lasted, as I have said, very nearly seventy years —ex pires in April, 1854. Two years before that period— namely, in April, 1852—the right honourable gentleman now the member for Stamford, and then President of the Board of Control, moved for the appointment of a select committee upon the subject of India. In making that motion he took occasion to enter into the progress which had been made since the last act of 1833, and produced facts which, as he stated, must be gratifying to the house. He said that, although there was a deficiency in the re venue at the present time owing to the recent wars, the revenue had increased from 18,000,0001. t o 24,000,0001. He stated that the imports had increased from 6,000,0001. to 12,000,0001. ; and the exports from 8,000,0001. to 18,000,0001. ; and he went on stating various facts of a. similarly gratifying character. He declared that the mea sures for the administration of justice had placed that administration in the hands of a great number of natives by whom justice was dispensed ; that that administration had generally been found satisfactory, and that there had been a very small number of appeals from their decisions. He made various other statements with regard to educa tion and with reference to the general state of India ; and had declared that since 1817, much had been done towards the improvement of India. He ended with a statement of the plans in contemplation, some in the nature of public works, one of which was a great road which was to cost no less than 1 ,500,000!. ; and having made those statements he moved for a select committee. He was opposed by an honourable gentleman no longer a member of this house, the late honourable member for Youghal (Mr. Anstey). But that honourable member was again met by a gentleman who has not only had great experi ence of the Government in this country, but also consider able experience of the '4m-eminent of Indi a —l mean the honourable member for ' Montrose ; and he declared that he was glad to hear that the Government had it in contem plation to renew the government of India on something lik the same foundation on which it had hitherto rested, and he stated if that government fell to the ground it would be the ruin of England. He pointed out, with great force, that if it had been truly said by the hon. gen tleman who had opposed the motion that there was great poverty in India, the pove r ty must always considered as comparative—that be if he meant to compare certain dis tricts in India with those of England no doubt they were extremely poor, but if he c om p are d districts in Indi a un d er the British Government with those under the native princes, then the comparison would be totally different. (Hear, hear.) He would see that the state and condition of the people under the British rule were far better than those of the people subject to the rule of the native princes. That was a perfectly just and true observation ; and I own I am surprised that the hon. gentleman (Mr. Bright) should say, upon the authority of a petition from an Eng lish county— Mr. BRIGHT (interrupting) —I referred to a paragraph which had appeared in a respectable English journ a l. Lord J. RUSSELL—I understood the hon. gentleman was comparing the people of the two countries. It amounted therefore to a statement founded on a news paper paragraph. Well, these are matters that are com parative, and the state of the ryots in India must be con sidered in regard to what had been their former condition. In the course of that debate I stated that I trusted that the Government of this country did not forget their own responsibility on this subject—that, whatever might be the character of the committee, you should not refer to a select committee a question of this importance for their decision—(hear, hear)—that you could only refer it to them for the purpose of information, and that upon the Parliament of this country must rest the responsibility of bringing forward and passing at the fitting time such a measure as they think bat. (Cheers.) I am still of the same opinion. I still think it is incumbent on the Go vernment of this country to bring forward, at the fitting time, the measure which they think best fitted for the government of India. The committee proceeded to in quire ; and there was, at the same time, a committee of the House of Lords appointed. Both committees divided the, subject of inquiry into eight heads. The first was with respect to the authorities and agency by which the government was carried on both in England and in India ; and the House of Lords stated, in report. ing to their lordships' house, that the general ten dency of the evidence taken before them was in systeinof adin Com i m ili o ste ns ri ' ng favour of continuing the present SO that With the affairs of India through the Board of Control and the directors of the East India Company. `There port was in nearly similar t erms. that first point, which must be the main obj regaVal that may be introduced into Parliament, theeettwoof caLuit tees gave their testimony as to the favourable tenour of their evidence ; and be it remarked that there were many per sons examined before those committees who thatereer subject. flenctsloyeacoyimnpeg,telndto nthotgithivenkana inopanisaadi:poi. ing an opinion upon this sub - e t quaoffed from giv h.aie bad considerabi_ ,J c because he happens to namely, Lord ccLotrdher E e llen r bo Ete r a o ur a z*Pe.) borough' person of. ja h ' ig and h au hae the : r h i e ty ld , caonndstpirtnuptinzonf dithffeeraoeflategra gave an opinion adverse to the Irt Government as it at present exists, am correct in saying LsoearsdioHn generally went rathere of government. I think I with°present mencement of the the opinion of the committees nor of India, than • with Lord Ellenborough. In the eom ugh- appointed, and the ard the ilei committee was re- President of the Board of Cont right hon. gentleman the rol stayed that he had hopes that they graver would be able toremaining subjects of inquiry, and that gi't on with in the nebie that Parliament should legislate on the g w ov as ernment of India in the course e of the present session. Since that tip2i t e_t_ he h eo m m any o f have proceeded with their inquiry , but "'jug those s u bj ects are of the greates t ,l with d there is ifficulties imp ortaxce only one way i n w hi c h they candeal of India had incident to th e su bj ec t. Ifthegovernment what it has been for the last 20 been tot a ll y diff eren t from a ccount given by the right gen years, totally different from the eund it was a government like some of those we read of—that hon. tleman—if we 1 1 1 i m. it had been a government of the most cruel rapa cit y , that the people were suffering ere on and corruption—then it yoke of °P."--sh.l- house whether or not we under the with this would be a question the nature of that government; and should totally alter t •of the utmost importance, but this respect is the evide nce in not the least possibility that that evidence I believe there is (Hear.) But there is no reason such character. will be of any why the committee should not proceed to consider all the po i n ts of inquiry, and with respect to the most imp or t an t then,—the uil . T; enee, the judicial system, and th e nava l °f mid military means of the gOvernment of India—produceto this housa allthe f o rming an opinion upon this subject. It i s we ll known . . committee sits twice a week, and three hours on that the . . c occasion ; and if it was necessary to have further evi dencel immediately, without asking them to imitate the late Lord George Bentinck—who on one occasion of this kind gave an example which will never be forgotten, I think if y sat twelve hours in the course of a week—if they sat four days for three hours, or three days for four hours— that would not be asking too much of their attention on this important subject. It may be thought, however, by some that it is desirable that the convenience of the com mittee should be consulted ; but I think that it would be far better that the committee should suffer some inconve nience than that the welfare of India should be at all en dangered by a regard to their convenience. But, sir, after all, the question arises—is it, or is it not, for the benefit of India that, according to the hon. gentleman's proposition, the renewal or the formation of 6 government or India.