The Sun. — London, England, 1801-12-15 00:00:00

Oody of men, and they certainly had done them selves great credit by their conduct in voluntarily putting a stop to. the Distilleries last year. But in a case of this kind,-the public interests, and not that of any particular , body of people, was to be -con sidered. 'I here, was another body of people .who had suffetcd, he meant the brewers, some of whom bad beer , obliged - an leave off their business, and others to lower die quality of their beer, so much as to make-many people prefer drinking-spirituous li quors. to Incr. There had been a considerable change in the-habits of the lower ela'ses of .the Community with rep6a to drinkiogs-s s Formerly you used to:setsa poor man -or.a porter with .1 prt of liorteis in ttis hand, -bur now'-they were always tobe seen with a noggin - of:gin. It was a known tita, that many .of the diseases of the lower-order of the People arose from the intemperate use of spirituons liquors ; and. it was a circumstance worthy of observation, that in'ioxication-arising froru spirits, was.of a very dif ' fetent nature froth that which arose from beer. .11.1 the accounts received horn Botany Bay, where spi rits were• noe'used, it appeared that -niany women who-had before been. barren, had become friiidul-in consequence of leaving off spirituous liquors ; and . that. the effea produced by the same cause upon men, was that of making those who. had been most indo lent, aEtive and. diligent. He was sorry to find that the use of. spirits had been, to a certain degree, permitted in that Colony, but he hoped it would he discontinued: Upon all these grounds he hoped the Right Hon. the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE; - Qtl E tt, and the House,- would be convinced of the policy a continuing the prohibition, and therefore he•moved -" for leave to bring in a Bill to continue the Aa- now in force, for a limited time." Me. PETERS seconded the Motion: he said, he could see but one mischief that would result from continuing the Prohibition, and-that was the injury that would arise to the Revenue; but that subjea . had been so-fully commented upon by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that it was unnecessary for him to trouble the House: It had been said, that it -would. reduce the price of Hogs ; but this he did not admit, because: the 'consequence of the Distillers buying up Hogs, must necessarily in- Crease _their price. He was aware, that the quan tity of-Grain used for Distilling was not so great, that it ought to affeEt the' price; -but in fact, the price was raised by expeaation ; the consequence was the same to the Public. '- Mr. DENT said this was a subjea of the great, est importance, and required the most mature deli beration. However, in the vote which be should give, he should agree with the unanimous sentiments . of his Constituents, who thought the Distilleries ought 'not to be. opened. Indeed, it was rather singular. that there were Petitions withont end against the Distilleries being opened, though there was not one on 'the other side. In circumstances of this kind -we-ought - to look to the Condo& of our -Ancestors in similar cases. In the scarcity in the time of Edward 11. it was determined that Wheat should not be malted : and it was also determined, that COtn should be laid up in public granaries, to -prevent the manceovres of Monopolizers, who have, in his 'opinion, contributed not a little to the pre sent dearness of provisions. The sum that .would be lost to the Revenue was only 800,0001.. ; and the* question was, Whethet such a sum was to be put-in competition with the public convenience? • . Mr. IV. SMITH rose to deliver his opinion upon some of the points which had been advanced by the .Gentleman who preceded him. The Hon. Gentle-. manswho began the discussion had entered into a very wide field; but his argumetr' were in general so contradictory,- that -it was obvious the Hon. Gentleman did .not not speak from his own know, ledge, but from instructions which had been put into his hands. He should, with the permission of the House, begin with noticing one or two great misstatements which had appeared in the Public Printi. It had been said, that if the Distilleries .were opened at all, there would be no means-of pre venting Distillers from using Wheat. Upon this subjea, he could take upon himself to say, that since the last Prohibition against using Wheat in the Distilleries, not a single quarter of Wheat had .been used in that manner ; but even if they did use Wheats that. would not be a good argument for preventing them from using any kind 'of Grain whatever. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman who preceded him, in one point, viz. the bad con sequences tharensued from the great use of Spirituous Liquors. Nothing, undoubtedly, was more injurious . to the health'or to the morals of the lower orders of the People ; but that was not the question now be fore the House : indeed the way to diScourage the -use' of Spirits, was to encourage the distillery from Malt, because in proportion to the gieitness of the duty must be the greateeS's of the price, and of course the smallness of the consumption. Insfaa, there ought to be no limit in the duty, but the ability - of colldaing it. But in order to have the duty ascertainable- and easy -to he colleeted, the manufacture ought to be in the hands -of persons who-were known, and who would not endeavour to evade the duty... The: Malt Distillers were • in this situation, and.the duty: which they 'had constantly paid to Government.without any attempt at evasion, amounted to little leis- than . one million a year ; there was no duty paid more fairly. It was in vain to attempt • to prevent the consumption sof Spirits, because if they were-not rpa c ie at home they would- be. 'smuggled in froth the Continent, parti eulatly Holland ; so that all -the evil would he pro duced, and at the same time the Revenue Would be. materially- injured. The arguments—however of. tSe Learned Gentleman who seade this Motion, -went not Merely-to the stopping, of the Distilleries under the present circumstances, but to prevent them from ever being opened any more ; now this was' a proposition to which he thought the House would by -1)0 means accede: With regard - to the effea which was to be produced upon the minds of the people, he was convinced that ,a greater degree of alarm would be-excited by stopping the Distil leries than from -laying them open, because if they were to be stopped, it would be confessing that there actually .was a scarcity. It had been said that, the price of Corn was' raised since it was known that the Distilleries were to be opened ; blit what w as t he t t ss ?" Why ,the price of Wheat, which was not to be used in the Distilleries, had incressed,while Barley, which was to be used, had not risen in price ; and, in point of faa, the last:' time the Distilleries were opened the price Of ley had fallen. It had been said, that Ilar:ey was . the fittest gain fiir, the use ,of man ; but this was. by, • no means cbrrea it certainly was used, but, not in, preference to Wheat: With respeft to the Teti-: dons, a - person would suppose, from the language . which had been held, that they were innumerable indeed one Gentleman 'had said that there' was no. end' to them. Now, in point of fad, there was only eight Petitions. Petitions on the Table of the Hduse. He did not mean to disparage those Petitions Or the persons, they' came from ; undoubtedly ;many more might be procured ; but it was equally, true, that it would be easy to procure' as 'many Petitions for opening the, 'Distilleries as there were against them. Gentlemen did not seem' much to have attended to the arguments 1 which they urged upon this occasion; for it had been :contended, that if the Distilleries were not permit ted to go - on, that the Grain they would hdve con sumed would be used for Bread, and that it Would: have increased the duties upon Beer. Now it was hardly fair to take the argument both ways ; for if the Barley was used for Bread, it was not very easy to imagine how it could be converted into Beer,. or vice versa. Another proposition : which had been urged, and which , appeared to him . , a little Whimsical, was, that last year the poorer classes of people had taken more than usually to the use of Spirits. Now it happened that the duty upon Spirits had decreased last 'ycarnearly one half, and consequently the consumption must have decreased in proportion. If, however, the Honourable Gen-. tleman was corre& in his assertion, it was not very easy to guess where the spirits came from. With regard to the morals of .the people, he had before said he agreed with Gentlemen in their general pro positions upon this subjed : but 'if they were either to drink spirits distilled from barley, or spirits di- stilled from molasses,. heapprebended that in either . case their morals would suffer in nearly the same de gree. He had now shortly answered the different ob_ servations which had been made against opening the Distilleries ; and the grounds upon which he opposed the Motion were simply those of expediency and jus tice. The Hon. Gentleman had said that the Distil lers were a respedable and opulent set of men—cer tainly their respectability did not arise from their opu, lence, but their opulence in one point of view ought to be taken into considerations because their wealth was laid out in large ereCtions for carrying on their business which was totally at a stop ; and, undoubt edly, there • ought to be very -strong reasons-indeed before so many persons were disabled from carrying- - on their business, and the Revenue fieprived of t,000,0001. a year. The interests of that body of men, or the difference of a million of money in the Revenue, ought certainly not to stand in the way of any very important object ; if the Food of the Poor was it stake, these secondary considerations -.must submit ; but, /on the other hand, the Public .owed - the Distillers' a duty, .they owed them pro tedion, and they ought riot to be prohibited from carrying on .their business, when it was impossible .to prove, from any sound arguments, 'that any pos sible injury could arise to the Public from it. • Mr. WILBERFORCE said, it seemed to be ge_ nerally admitted, that if distillation from Barley was prohibited, there would still be neaily, an equal consumption of Spirit distilled• from Molasses ; all argument therefore relative to the injury arising to the morals of the People from the use of Spirits, must be, left, in 'this instance, entirely out of the diseussion. The only Question for consideration appeared to be that of Revenue, and he must be a very weak.man, 'or know very little of the' subjed, who would refuse to consider . Revenue as a very important consideration. The advantages for which the co'Untry depended upon Revenue, were perfealy obvious, and no source of - Revenue was more ad vantageons to this Country than that bf It had been stated on a former evening by a Right Hon. Gentleman (the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE QUER); that whether the Distillation from Barley went on or not, there was little or no defalcation in the Revenue, nearly an equal Revenue being produ ced from the distillation from Molasses. , There appeared therefore no reason ; drawn from financial considerations, for renewing . the distillation from Barley at the present moment. An argument .had been urged,,drawn from the duty the House owed to the Distillers, who were certainly a very respect able body of men, and no man could feel more than himself what was due to them ; but it should he recolleded, that they were only prohibited from dis tilling from Barley, whilst the distillation fioim Mo lasses and Sugar still remained. The great Qaestion, however, for consideration was, whether by allow ing the distillation from Barley, they should not enhance the price of Bread Corn It was true that Barley was not commonly made into .Bread, yet it . was so in many pans of England ; and it was to be feared that the persons consuming this kind of Bread would be driven, by the high'price of Barley to the use of Wheat, and thereby the price of the latter would be materially increased. He believed a great part of the late high price of Wheat was to be at tributed to 'a numeroua class quitting the use of- Rye and. Barley for the_ consumption of Wheat ; and he thought those.persons should be templed by every possible means to resume the use of those ar ticles which they had deserted. As to the quantity of Barley used for the purposes of distillation, when it : was asserted that a large quantity was used illi citly, the quantity legally used would not of course be taken as the criterion of the consumption- of that article in distillation, With resped to the effect the purchase of this quantity would have upon the Mar ket, it should be recolleded;that not only the,Barley used in England, but also that consumed in Scotland for the purposes of distillation, was purchased at Lon - . don, and consequently that the whole effed produced fell upon the London Market, whilst the price ofßar ley in every other part of England was regulated by the price of the London. Markets. Persons having a commodity to. sell, were necessarily aauated by feelings ofinterese to-ask the:highest possible price for that commodity, that Circumstances: would al low. It was not the quantity adually wanted, but the quantity conceived to be wanted, and the im. pression made by it upon men's minds; that would influence the price, and cause it to rise. It was this persuasion which would affect' the Market and the price :of Barley throughout the-Kingdom. All agreed in the propriety and necessity of encourag. iegCultivation •„,the ,only difference fts, wheth r it was fit at the present moment to anew the dis tillation from Barley to proceed l If ithealistilla tion from Barley was not now stopped, it would be Ofvery little use to do it as a fliture period after the Recess. The ComMittee of last year, whose Report made in March, was inimical to the prohibition of distillation' from Barley, of which Committee he was a' Member,' had proceeded upon this gotiond, that four-fifths .of the whole quanti ty which would be consumed in the course e of Abe' year, had then already . beeti used, and it was there. •fore of little or no utilitT to prohibit the dis-. dilation at that time. _Chat would be exatly -the case now, if nothing was done in the busi- . `ness before the Recess. Before the House could ' ;ad,' four-fifths of the whole quantity wanted for the year would have been consumed, the mis chief would already be done, and the House could then ad With no effedin prohibiting the distilla tion from Barley. It was True there were no more than eight Petitions on the Table fOr continuing, the prohibition, but he . had reason . to believe that those Petitions spoke the sense of a majority of the, Country. He hoped if the Distilleries were per. witted to go ou, the measure would not have that injurious circa which it was feated would result from ite though she doubted whether it would not have a 'very considerable effed, He did not exped the ptesent motion, • but if he was compelled to chose, he thought Under the present circumstances, , the Distillation front Barley should not be suffered to proceed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIE . Q. LIEN said, he was 'desirous of exptessing his sentiments and stating his opinion on this very important sub- Jed, • immediately after the declaration of ,the aenti s ments of Hon, Friend who had just .spoken, cause he felt it incumbent on 'him to corred one mistake, which he was enabled to correa from in formation which he derived from the execution of his official duty ; he 'meant that part of the state ment of his Hon. Friend which related to the Re venue. His Friend had stated, that 'although the Question now before the House was highly hue portant in itself, yet in a financial view, it was extremely narrow. His Friend had 'supposed he, in his official situation, had admitted that to beAhe case : that was not so, nor had it that 'operation last year when the stoppage of the Distilleries took place : the • fat was; that the defalcation. to the Revenue on that occ.asion was 566,00&. s there was an occasional increase of duty on account of the importation of Foreign Spirits, to the athottrit too,oool. ; so that the whole of the real loss to the Revenue was only 400,0001.: but this was too considerable a sum Co he described as a narrow Mat ter of financial arrangement. There .was another mistake into which his. Hon. Friend had fitllen, to which he beggedleave to advert : his Friend, ftas - I an honourable disposition and laudable feeling, endea voured to find out a substitute for the defalcation - in the Revenue, which must be felt by the stoppage of the Distillery of Grain, by adverting to 'the Dis. iillation• of Molasies. Upon that oecasion he felt as his Hon. Friend did, and no consideration of the personal convenience of any person should have deterred•.him from giving his support to Distilla tion from Molasses, if he thought chat it would be to the general interests of the Community e .but • 'he was persuaded that, the general interest of . the Community would not be preserved, by the emot,. • ragement his Hon. Friend' recommended to distilla tion from Molasses. The. true interests of the Civ.. • munity embraced host 'particularly an encourage merit to the Malt Manufadurer and the Grower of Grain, so materially connected with the agricol . lure Of the Country, on the prosperity and im. .provement of which depended so materially the comfort as well as strength of the Community. The distillation of Molasses was a trade that Could be carried on by a capital which was much ihferior to that which was indispensably necessary to support the 'trade of distillation of Grain. The trade of the distillation. in MOlasses was inferior in every re sped to the other distillation ; the apparatus was very different, and so was almost every thing in the . trade from the distillation of Grain. Thedistillery • of Molasses was a trade Which might be carried on in a coiner e whereas thOSe who distilled from Grain, could ,do no such thing.' This' was a poipt • of some importance, especially to those whose trade it.was:to distil' from Grain, and of importance for the consideration of the House. It was a great sa • tisfadion to him to find that . all his HOn. Friends had agreed in one principle,., which ought to guide the determinations of that HouSe, which was indeed, its paramount obligation, namely, to look at that which, upon a 'comprehensive scale, might be said to constitute the interests of the whole Community ; that was, in other words, the general interests of the People—in . Which he apprehended encourage ment to the produdion of Coro,stoed conspicuously forward. ThiS was a principle upon which hL: thought the. House- must .always rely, to support which they ought to acquiesce in measures which could not otherwise Ile justified, and in times of pressure that might he felt to be little - short of cala- • mity, but at all times to do that which tendezi.to : . encourage agriculture. For these purposes, apd to obtain this object, which was the-real advantage ' of the People at large, the House must often saeri, five immediate and temporary feeling, fist perma • nent advantage ; 'for they were not to ptvehase pre-. sent convenience and superficial approbation, at the. bitter price of sell-reproitch, a debt which would be due to their conscience, if upon refiedion they found they had given way to temporary feeling of • pressure, and sacrificed' permanent advert: ge (in • that permanent advantage he included, alt= possible encouragement) to the produdioes of the earth, and more immediately that of Grain, which was thes ' ob,.. jed of distillation. A question might indeed , arise, What was the point of limitation as to the applis cation of t.lutt psiuciple.l, It was, in his opt niore-exremeiy difficult to' say, at what price of the article this application of principle should cease. It Was impossible to . fix the price before-hand; be, cause that must - depend on other, and relative points,' embracing a'constderation of We 'price of other ar , eiclesS .and'indeedrit Would be difficult to say what the price should be of the different articles grain itself, with reference to each other, in beder - to,say ; when the use' of it for distillation should be. prohi. bited. His Honourable Friend had reetred to the .Petitions on the Table on the sii!,*.e, , ow before the House. He admitted they were hut few ' number, but he contended they exhressed . the set of the majority of the Peoph! •of this Country, i; which his Honourable Friend implied that he 11 5 " erred in what he said on that subject on a thrive; occasion, That was a defective statement of wha t he said on that subjea. He never said these Peck' lions did tint express - the sense - 6r' t he hr r i h ro r h h' e the People ; he only said, he., had .ye,t to. learn 111 0 they did express that sense ; he had that to 10 0 now, for there was certainly no poof of ; it ; bLIc even if they did express the .sentiments of, the mg' jority of the people, yet, .if he: was convinced tthic sentiment was not in unison with the real, interest' of the people, painfid as ie-would he e tteliihhw or pose such-a sentiment, he should dO it for untie' such circumstances, he should be guided by -a prino ciple which was .paramount to that. of pleasing the people, that of essentially serving them ; for it tot not . the hope, ner was it the wisie,, it Was the me interest of the People that . a PClitHan ought to hhil sue.Wlien he said tithe, he to bennklefr stood as not saying any thing to. cal, -in, questihit the integrity of those presented Petitions to the House cm _the preset): shhiei! . t '; they were , he was ,eonvinced, persons perlettiv respeaaliler but the House, would at the same time recollea Were persons residing in different parts of theCouw ay, and they were so conneßed and circumstanced that it might without any harshness be said of dell) that it was impossiblcfor them to have takehhcomihh hensive view of the true interests of the wholah.- Community in which we liVe, and of which, although pettedly respectable, they formed only a small part; but althcugh these l'etitionero had snot, vet it WI the duty of that 'llCtuse tO. that geneted an" cQraprehensivu. view .of the interests of tne . w holo Community - ; and happily for the -People o f this Country, there was in that Houle- abundance , knowledge of such interest, and a dispositioo 4 preserve it.--h—leduid been said by some, by rico - C $ 1; pointedly as th 6 Hon. Centlethan - opposite to hitn , that there was' a great deal of-prejudice on the 0 11; ' t now before the House. lie felt the truth that observation, and-the force of it. He did not deny that respect was nor, in some cases, due to prejudice ; on. the contrary, there were some semi s ments entertained,. arid cherished under that 7,vhi4:11 was commonly called Prejudice, - which were .of ,std a quality that he hoped in .God they would lass ever. There were others which came under the head of Prejudice, and:which he should not. be sot s to see eradicated, and to such Prejudices heshvil h he sorry to give - way: whenever they nailitaio against the public welthre. He could only sav,.°. general terms, it was the duty (if that House to 0; amine Prejudices, and consider the bearing -the had on the Public Interest, before they gave war; diem.—Having said this, he must obsetve, with " (Y e Bard to the Petitioners who asked' the measure moved for, they conveyed seni inents, of the tr and justness of which, his Hon. Friend who fl'h supported this Motion was, lie was sure, co l - 4 hnpressed ; and- here he wished to have it uode c ' sto h t . that in addition to the eight Petitions not3(,s before the. House, the Lords of the Treasury fa heie he was, only,repeating what. ; be had said fo r ( merlyy had received fifty Petitions bus iltne ° these 1 3 ,titicn1S, came from quarters where it 0 1 known that 'clandestine Distilleries are going and in one of Whieh flO • less.than ten. stilts are work, He was induced to say. this, to impress t'; House with an idea' pf . , the nature of .sothe of 65 Petitions ; and to enable the House htdhavail itce of this intelligenCe, the particulars of which , should, at no very disfailitpaiod, he belieyed, 1 :A 1 before them. Before he entered further into: thew :); sideratihn of the grotrrid on \vhich he 'should 00) the Motion of his:Hon.. and Learned .Friend, should take notice of a point, on which muclestr h y f had beenlaid. It had been stated; hi, a math, which had astonished him, ..that since it was 5 1 g c ' i h fled that it was not time intention of Government propose the continuance -of the' resiridion, or !a other words, that Government proposed to openfh Distilleries, 'the price'-of: Bhrley, had. risen, ano h was stated also, fromett :quarter for which he ah.cr:'° e ! felt, and always should feel; a. regard, - that the !, e titioners held bade froth an unwillingness to interP"h until they had-felt the effects the expeaatioh of ing the Distilleries had on theoriee of the aihie - leah h a prejudice had been enlisted into the servi,7' Petitioners, as if wheat Was to be e emhloy ed it 4 1 distilleries ; but a moment's refiedian would • pel eyery apprehensionoh that head, for, not ce the penafty, which wa's great, but the. cernpar 4t fi ei price Between Wheat and , Barley, gave the i'?;") an assurance that no Wheat would be distilit u hf Supposing the Distillers to be willing to rnoe oh risque ; of the penalty.an , extravagant Suphosioe, because it was impossible for them LO avoid A" i ,c ee tioti, yet, they must be allowed to possess h sense of their owo interest than tOprefer Barley in distillation, at the present pike of tWo articles of grain. Wheat indeed had riseh.sho the intimation' ryas even that Government di`' • wish-to protract the prohibitiOti of the Distil i f f el; . beyonde.the_ period to-which , they now stho r , - .striCted, but Barley had not. With perntiss .l °.ha -the House he would state the prices of. that a il h) as it had been given to him from a quarter on scb it . ' bt he could rely.—The price of Bhrley was from k t) we think. he said, to h4,:hs. per quarter. 12 11 ° s ) ens. The 6th 5 Ls; The highest price was 5 11 : .lehhath been, since the intimation froin • P° -mama as low as 46 and up to S t shillinp ;d -this-day it ,vas 48s. He fied made out an I . l c h e of-the price of Barley in Mark-hoe, every al l 0 , 4 day-since it was intimated that cloyernineht wish 'to continue the reitridion on the Distille4o ' Which was irbin the ad Of' November to the re time, by which it appeared that the rice w't s e hh t --very day, roWer than it had been, by 3s. - ter, in hhei:heried to. S'- )t P, standing the apprehensions egpressed iii ih:it that all Cprn WouldhiSe. au the idea or the .10 -aeries being opened,hif appeared that Vili el4 V .risen e but that Barley had fallen'; and 1:e had shewn there was no fouildation for - a p h rche r oi that Wheat would bear all used for, that . pv Pt-was -important that-the Hotise shoulchlle 4 ls4 of -these circumstances, bechuse it thhhh‘r e ' . hero. v ,, ill.founded apprehensions,- add enabled!-G%, to attend Pure thee;t4iy, - than they Ot' I valuable cl to all who 111c=47ntill valuable, th e Distill f;.:rent arti - (.! Frienc 1x . ,%:s deter peaty 365. per of a Corn Parliamen 1800, the sBs. the 1( Sts. Be ley was f Butchers' the Comm uught: s oi Barley at Kittle w An Price of the Distill qtrthre tha The Repot "as, that 4 1 at prese 'Os. still ttridion L