The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-12 00:00:00

teeeteci, eflice, fir a populans place; Timm; while a m em b er ort . the Board of Con trol, . was tlected foe a populous place witheur ntpasitien; and c Not,le Duke opposite, whit. , S:cretery of State, lind also been elector! for a pepuloti: plac e , and recently a Right Hcnnurable Baronet (S:r e Cam Hobhouse) Tail been re-elect,rl for Westminster, upan accepting offiee. •So murh 'yr 1 . 11:e argument that Membere of the tiovernment would nut be able to get into Parliament under proposed Bill. He hoped, therefore, that their letttelehips would give the )3ill the second reading. He would hot thr,olK e ent any imputatine 3, but he earnest's t - :elled on heir Lordships to consider the vote. •which they was ght give. Ile was of aninitin that if the Bill were passed • very port of the Government etteld go on safe d uomfortable, though be, thought that lUiniste.na 'weeeld nertainly not lie rot h bed of roses. All the N:stole Leads opposiec bad expressed au opinion itt ; . :r.-tear of some Reform, anti wished for the Rpf,t-dy settle • meat of the s(uestion.—(Cheers. ) The Noble Earl who spoke last was last year opposed ta all Reform, but now ee a . in savour of some Reform. A Noble Duke, the pro. teritenor of St. :awes, declared that he would never cetersent that his property to which by law i e was en si*.iel should be taken front him against his will. fly what law that property was eectred to :;:era, the Neble Duke wouid net state. But were in favour of seme Reform, and therefore the aiesnitiort was one of degree. At present they had ooly to consider none thing, and that was the Rill now before the House. • Those NIP.s , Lord s who were against the proposed Bill had never favoured the House with any Reform Bill of their own. It was true that they were peemi.nd one by the Noble Duke (Buckingham) but what were the detaile of it he Wal . ignerent They had tnerefore no option bet tie accept sae reject the. propuseti Bill, or ii any thing wes two:, in it, to amend it in Committees.. It was well aleraed by a Noble Baron last night, that whetever Reform was granted, whether great or small, could be hest de eided in.,C9Elinlittf.N....( Hear.) Why Noble Lorde should wish .to reject the Bid without going into Cnretnittee, and bring.ehe coneequencet eu them all at once, he could not 9inceives unless. it were for the !rawest, of upsetting the Government._ he. was that tl.e preaert situation of tlee et:entry called far the immediate adoption of the Bill, a.ked, whiztkle.it were not much better, instead et getting up Ist intredace, queetions for -- the purptose of harassing. • and atexine, thr all parties to unite in settling this treat anti important question, erel giving Effect to such meateres as would insnre ti•c peace ;aid happiness of the country.— " . I .:heere.) lie tendered his sincere rote in fa ettur of the Bill, end hoped th t when their Len:ships coneidered that &very persen who had spoken in the tielette was a friend to seine Reform, and that there was no nuance which might not be amended in Com mittee, their Lordships would allow the. Bill to be read a stetond time. The Dulie of WELLINGTON rose for the purpose of explitn:ition. The Noble'. Duke hail entirely inis nderstood in the extract thit he read fr,,rn it journal which was .before that Howie. He had not, read it for ti)e,porpuse of making any personal allusion., but simply to .silow that whco a measure wis in tzwlireed by Government lit7le hope could be enter tained of materially altering it in Committee. We also uttderstsod. the Noble Duke to say that he had not re m,iveir Mr. Aq - . - roo:1 professedly as the deputation of the Birrninehan i , or any other political union. The Bishop of LINCOLN and Lord Wynford rose at =thr dime moment, and the latter having given way, the Right Rev, Prelate proceeded to state, that when he had been called upon to vote en the Reform Bill of last Session, he had only a chsice of evils. He felt that he bed now only a choice of evil., and his cbject woo'd be new as it was then, to choose, according to tee of his ability, that which was the lesser evil. \Vhen the former Bill was brought up into that House the public mind was in a state of great excitement, and a season of great exciterneet was of all times the most unfit for legislating upon any suhject. Although, therefore, he had not teen insensible to the inconvenience, evil, and hazards which would arise from the 'wk. tion of the last Bill, yet he felt that to reject it was to choose the lesser evil.—(Hear. hear.) The majority by which that Bill was rejected was com posed of two classes, of those who were :unfriendly to all Reform, and of those who, wh never might be , he opinion as to the desireebleness of Reform, yet frit that the time load arrived when a great change should t -Ice place in the representative state of the country. He was one of those who was convinced that the rower of sending representatives to the House of Uornatons should be conferred on laree manufacturing end commercial towns, and that there might be a ,pirtial disfranchisement, according to the suggestion of the Noble Duke who spoke in the course of this de- Oa.te. He was one of the number who thought that a change was demanded in the re.presentetive system. From t he commencement of the present session he had been looking with anxiety for some individual introducing a Bill, founded on principles coincident with his views. Had that hseii done, when called upon to vote on the second read ing of this Bid, he should hare been able to have pointed to some specific mrasure, and to have stated that it con rained his s•-ntiments on the subject of Reform ; and thus he would have ;,roved he was not unfriendly to Reform. But his hope in that respect had been dis tippointed. No such nwasuie had been introduced, be esuse the notice given by the Noble Duke to whom he had before allte'ed, had conic too late (hear) ; he was therefore pieced in the seine situation in which lie had been placed lest year, that is, he must either vote for the rejection of the Bill, or vote for its going into Committee, but re) change had taken place since he had given his former vote. • At that time such was the eacieenient of the public mind, but the excitement in favour of -that. particular measure was so great, that he believed a modification of this Bill would have been ecarcely lees distasteful to the public than its rejection. What was the state of the public mind now ? There existed so intense anxiety for the set. 'lenient of this question, on account of the injury which would, as long as it existed in suspense, be inflicted on agriculture], commercial, and menuluctering interests There existed also a getesral persuasion that the qu- scion could only be settled by the introduction and by the adop tion of some considerable measure of Refurtn. But more over there was a growing indiff rence in the public mind to the present Bill. He had said, that when the Bill was re jected on s former occrisiiiii, its mutilation would scarcely be less distasteful to the public than its complete rejection ; but the public would at present be satisfied with any mollification of that measure—(Hear, .hear, from the Opposition)—which was compatible with the general principles as they were called of the Bill. The Nob'e Earl hail stems' that lie would admit of no alteration in the franchising qualification of great towns. He bad heard that declaration of the Noble Earl with great regret, and be hoped that he would be induced to re-consider that ile elevation. The few remarks, indeed, which lie had orisred in order to vindicate his opinion, afforded sufficient ground to induce the Noble Earl to take that course. In answer to an objection made to the 101. franchise on the ground of its uniformity, the Noble Earl had said that although. the qualification in appearance was uniform, it was not in in reality. It would have a different operation in. differenf places—in Liverpool and in London, for instance, that was the case—but the operation was high ins low population, and it would be low in a large population. Now that was precisely the reverse of what it should have been. The Right Rev. Prelate concluded by stating that while he would vote for the second reading of the Bill, he could never give his support to the 101. qualification. Tile Earl of FALMOUTH would not quarrel with the Rev. Prelate who had last spoken, for he made his re- , marks in such a good humoured macner that no offence could he taken. Bat his arguments for going into Gimmittee on this Bill were all old onto, and if eerriee into effect would lead to vote by ballot.— (Hear.) He had listened with greet approbation to the a , gumente put forth by Lord WnarnclitTe in October late, and he could not come down to the House without in some measure preparing himself against the argument. the Noble Laid lied led the House to expect they would hear from him now he had changed his sentiments on the Bill. Luckily he bad taken notes of the speech delivered by the Noble Lord upon the last Bill, and the difference between it and that of last night caused him great pain. 'sh e Noble Earl (Grey) said the principles of the Bill were disfranchisement, enfranchisment, and extenson of the fran chise. But, from what he could collect fram hisspeech,on a recent occasion, he thought that schedules A, B, C, and D, as well as the 101. clause, were also great prin. ciples of the Bill, and he was prepared either to retain them or consider the Bid. The Noble Earl ( Falmouth) then quoted the opinions of Lord Wharn cliffe, as delivered by him last Session—" The pro s visions of this Bill were so many attacks upon the landed interest." He also objected to the large towns to which the franchise was to be extended, but more especially to the qualification clause., If the Noble Lord expected to get rid of 'the twentieth, part of his tbep object-lima-in Committee he would be most mire rably disappointed. As to the ten-pound . el use, he, ; lOW said his objections to it were so numerous and so strong, that no remodelling of it, would satisfy. him but that Ministers were obliged to stick to that clause by the Prole, and that even when they attempted to intrc- l ace au intiprovement into the clause, so far as regard, l odgers of 31. 10d. per week, they were obliged to ;le e: i nadvertence. In that able speech the Nohle Laid had argued most ably against all parts of the Bill He would read some more of the general reasonine of the Nohle tsar!, and thee leave it to the House to coin, to a conclesion as to Which of the opinions delivered by th. Noble. Lord were the most proper to be t' flowed. lo Oc tober he had said that many of the Members of the Hon, of Commons had voted for the second reading nf the Biil, with the ...:action of nuking such amend ments in Ceiret'oten -.o would, in their opinion, improve it l hot when the Bill did get into the Committee, they found, that them it was ton late to reetft the error which they had committed. The Noble Baron now gave up the whole of th ',tegument, and in his speech of heat night he wishe latte induce Noble Lord. to do that whitli he himself had blamed in those Member. who had to voted for the second reading. He had also said that which he 'Els I F.) wished he had riot said. lie had sail that with respect to th-u Noble Duke (Wellington) he must say hie early habits prevented him from liavioe ouch constitutional know!_dge as would justify him in in!- lowing that Noble Duke in the course which he was pur suing. But had the Noble Lord forgotten the long tittle that the Noble Delos had been in the civil service of his coontiy, and with tech a mind as his, was it likely that he wonld not in that time derive some. It - Tinseled : se el the Conatinition of his country ? The Con stitutional knot% ledee which the Noble Lord haul obtained by his seven years seat in that House had been, that ..vhen a Minister who had said that by a particular 8.11 he wetild stand or fall, and having been heater: upon that Bill lay a large majority, introduced that Bill again, and du ciered that lie would do so over and over again— these being the only reasons given by the • Noble Lord why he had changed his opinions, and was going to vote for the second reading, this seemed to be but a small anionot of the Constitutional knowledge that the Zs'etile Lord had picked up in seven years.—(Hear.) But then be arid lie expected last year a small majority lint there was a large one, to the extent of forty-one, "and because you had a large niajerity in favour of the opinions which I then expree ed, I mean to reverse my opinions anil to alter my vote ; I mean now to vote for the second reading of this Bill." He then said, I " warned you what you might expect, but you would not take that warniiie. Yon would net take my advice, and just see the consequence." Now it had happened unforrunately fur that Noble Baron, lie had warned their Lordships in both ways, and therefore he undoubtedly thought their Lordships had a right to make a choice of which warning they would take. He (Lord Falmouth) thought when the Noble Baron compared the manner in tvhicii his speech of last year had been received, and that in which his had since been receive-I, he wool I entertain some doubt as to the propriety of the course he was pursuing. On the delivery of his first speech he was received with enthusiastic cheers, but those cheers now came from the other side of the House, and he (Lord F. ) thought he ought to be warned by theta.—(Hesr.) The Noble Baron had also quoted part of the speech of Oliver Crom well ; and be thought from the cheers •which had just re sounded from the Noble Whigs, that they were buoying themselves up with a hope, that "The Lord had deli vered hiun into their hands."—(Laughter.) Another Noble Earl who had made an excellent speech last year, and a good one this, except with respect to argument, • had called this a most unhuippy Bill. lie thought the speech coming form the quarter it did, was a most unhappy spuech. He stated that if the 101. franchise were to be permitted, he for. one should not thing of having - the present Bill read a second tune.—(Herr, hear.) He could only say that he heartily thanked them • for his speech, but if he would aJow him to make his choice, .be would rather have his vote. Another Noble Earl had stated that they ought not to be intimidated by threats, and that he saw no reason why the Constitu tion should be frittered away in the manner it would he by .this Bill. Ile honoured that Not , le Earl for his sentiments, arid lie should never feel ashamed of his consistency. That Noble Earl had been all aloug a consistent Reformer, but being a Reformer, there was no reason why heshutuld givehis vote to a measure that would undoubtedly lead to a revolution. He would not take op touch of their Lordships' time by comment ing on the speech of the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government, if example and precedent had attended the speech of the Nook Earl on this, as on the last Bill. He did justice to tine eloquence of the Noble Earl, hut he must say that that eloquence had been spent on a had cause. By the present Bill it was endeavoured to render the mob inure densucratic than it was already, and he (the Earl of Falmouth,) bad no hesitation in stating that the moment their Lordships passed this Bull, England would he fast entering on the ter mination of her career.—(hear, hear.) It might be very well for the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Government to say, if this measure fails, he would he the only person responsible, and on him would fall all the consequences. He had no unfriendly feelings towards that Noble Earl, but he sincerely wished that he was the only person on whom the consequences would full. Unfortunately, however, the people and the country would suffer tlue punishment, though they were by no means accessary to the crime-- Wriat the present country wanted was not the Bill, but good Government—a return to sound principles in the changes of commercial and financial interests ; hut if their Lordships paused this Bill, from that moment the decay of the country was certain. He wished now to address himself in particular to the Rcv. Bench, and to ask them what they haul seen in the conduct of his Majesty's Government that could induce them to support such a Government and such a measure. Was it because Mr. O'Connell had caused more bloodshed than any man in the country ? Was it because that Agitator had received his Majesty's f ivour that they thought Government ought to receive their support? Did not this Bill give him a greater increase of power? He had declared that it would, in all times and places, and if, however, it was said Oh ! it was not meant to do so, he would instanly reply, he did not care about that, the Hill would give it, and that he looked upon it as the stepping-stone to future power, and eminence. He (the Earl of Falmouth) looked upon the Irish Bill as part and parcel of this measure. The only excuse he could furnish for a Government giving to Mr. O'Connell a silk gown was, that he was a man of talent. Why, the thief and the pickpocket might his men of talent, but was that any reason why that talent should be enoouragsd in so conspicuous a manner ? In 1829 their Lordships had passed the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, and t. eir Lordships would recollect during the discussion on that Bill, that he had expressed a hope if it passed that the gloomy anticipations he had of the results would not be realized. He had also said that after its passing he should consider it his duty to be silent upon the subject, and that promise he had kept sacredly up to the present moment. Why did he now mention the subject again ? Not for the purpose of his own vindica tion, but in order to remind their Lordships that the Noble Duke who brought forward and carried through that measure, accompanied it by an other, because he thought the then representation of that •country was not sufficiently strong to afford the necessary check to that power which would be given . to the Catholics. By the Catho'ic Bill they did indeed' preserve that prop which the Noble Duke had placed there, but they took away the fabric itself ; and no man could doubt, wnen that fabric was tiiken away from which the' fiuilding derived its support, it would fall to the ground.' Now what had been the consequence of all this ? Why the introduction oif a system of education which had any thing for its support but the Bible. The Noble El.! then in strong terms condemned the conduct of his M ljesty's Ministers for introducing such a measure. he logged to refer to the conduct of arsine of the parties who supported this Bull in the other House of Parliament. It was there considered that the Church be paid like the Army and Navy, and that those educated for it, should be cashiered if necessary ; and 'cert dilly it was proposed that there should tie an inquiry into the Church Establish. ment in Ireland, whether it was not paid more than the service performed, and whether the income received was not greater than it ought to be. This propo sition was supported by about . forty-five Members of the other House, and no less than eleven of' the present members of the Government voted in favour of that inquiry.—(Hear.) To talk of this measure gain; into Committee, the danger of permitting it to go there would be beyond all cohcep tion. It was said that popular feeling was in favour of Reform. He denied this. Popular feeling was not in favour of Reform. - He meant not in favour of this Reform nor of ady thing like it. The present popular feeling was not the cause but the effect of this measure ; and he camel not say he envied the feelings of those who supported the present measure. The Noble Lord concluded by adverting to a part of Lord Harrowby's speech in October last, calling on the Bench of Bishops not to flinch from their duty in vot ing 'against the measure, and in hoping, notwithstanding the alteration which had taken place in the minds of some Noble Loots, that the present Bill would share a similar fate to that which befel the last. The Marquess of BRISTOL next addressed the House. He w.s considerably excited, and in the course of his speecl, one curnplete sentence of which wse scarcely hesrd. in the gallery, he was obserce4 .toapply his. liandktrchief to his•eyes 1 . We tioderttood the Noble Marini' to sith that tills Bill was as revolutionary in its principles as th last; it contained the same offensive clauses; and if once sane iimeed by that House, it would shake to the foundation a : the ancient institutions of the country, as well as all th ,ighta of propert;•. The pa-sing of the Bill would ihfli, on Englishmen the most severe wound that ever had bee: received from the hands of any set of men, and would hria upon the country for greater evils than that under whi t -; it at present laboured. He had passed a great pet iod his life i❑ considering the question of Reform, mill i. discussing it in all its forms; and he entirely concorre , with those whose opinion it was that according to ti, principles of the present constitution, it would be neither wise, nor just, ❑or safe, for their Lordship• to pass 'ln present Bill. Whenever a measure might lie brought for ward to repair, and wit, like the present, to alter and break down the Constitution, he wnn'd ready to affird it his utmost support, but nothin g could he so injurious as to grant one ❑niform right of voting to the country. Once permit this Bill to be pass-d into a Law, and it was utterly impossible to say whet-. the effects would stop, or what other measures might not follow i t.—( He lc the Noble Marquess seemed t, shed tears.; In his conscience he lielered that the English H•ruse of Commons was as perfect now as it was possible to be made. The elements by which it was composed, made it one of those in ! valuahle institutions of the country upon which the happiness of the people actually and solely dependril. These opinions of his had not been lightly or sudden! ) formed, Why then was it to be expected that he shoo! support a Bill which was i•alculated to destroy the Roast of Commons, and thereby entirely to alter the Consti nation of the country ? Once convert the Hous e of Commons to he the mere echo of the people, alter it from a House of Trustees into an Assembly of Delegates, and there would be an end to all prop=s legislation in this country. Despotism of any kind was inconsistent with freedom ; and if this Bill were passed, the House would find that despotism of a democracy was, of all others, most intolerable. —( Hear.) Ile appealed, then, to the sacred name of real liberty, and called upon them not to sanction the second reading of this Bill, not to take the first step down that slippery plane which, when once entered upon, they could not fail to be precipitated to the bottom of, with a velocity continually increas 7 ng. They were called upon to do this upon no other foundation than the prophecies Gl' those who supported the Bill, whilst those who warned them of the danger of the patlipointed to experience, and bade them cling to that Cenatitution under which they had enjoyed so many blessings—to that Constitution which had been tried and loved for centuries,—to that Constitution which had been found equally capable of resisting the encroachments of the crown and the democracy,— to that constitution which accomplished all it professed, and gave full ef•et and security to the property of all—to that constitution which did all that political constitutions could do for a country, which, whilst it protected the rights of the gre l ie6t, encouraged the industry and activity of the humblest individuals of the community, giving them an op tunity of rising to the highest station iu the land. The new House of Commons would furnish a ladder to ambi tion which would be mounted in rapid succession by the favourites and tyrants of the day. He would not compare our admirable Constitution with the dreams and visions of aoi-disant philosophers ; but he knew its great blessings—he knew the large amouot of comfort, and content, and satisfaction, which thev owe to it in their passage through this world, and the eternal happiness it afforded them the means of attaining, through the protection it afforded them, to their sober and enligioened Church. Let them not flatter themselves that that sober and enlightened Church could lung survive the whole Constitution, fur the new one would strip it of its possessions in the first pl a ce, and overthrow• its doctrines in the secand.—(Hear.) What he had said in favour of our present excellent Constitution was the dictate of gratitude, was the dictate of judgintot, was a tribute of affection and reverence to that which he hoped the wisdom, and mode ration, and firmness of that House would enable them to preserve. To a moderate plan of Reform he was ready to give his test consideration, and should do it with the view, not of making it the minimum of concession which might be granted to ap pease clamour, but with the view of giving to the public wishes that maxitunna of Reform which was compatible with the peace,. order, and security of so ciety, and the real interests of the people themselves, who might believe him, that he w•as ready to make any concession to them which would not be injurious to them. Toe Duke of BUCKINGHAM said, that he had men tioned that the commissioners wer e to be appointed by the Lord Chancellor, as in the last Bill ; but be faund that in the present case the judges were to have the ap pointment. The BISHOP of LONDON.—He regretted that he should have to differ with the Noble Marquess who had just addressed their Lordships, whom he had much reason to regard with esteem and respect. He was sure that the candour, which was not less characte ristic of that Noble Marquis th in integrity, would lead his mind to give him credit that the conclusion he had come to teion this subject, watching the pro gress of public opinion, and the posture of affairs in general, was a sincere conclusion. He should not, however, trespass upon their Lordships' attention on the present occasion, did he not feel called upon to say a few words in vindication of the course lie felt bound to pursue. He would first take the liherty of pro. testing, with all due respect and humility, but still firmly, against these appeals which wet e made from both sides of the House to the Bench of Bishops, as if they were a body separate and distinct from the rest of their Lordships' House, not answerable ter their conduct in the same manner and degree as the rest of their Lordships. The Noble Earl who spoke last but one, with much feeling, and with professions of respect, which he believed to be sincere, inquired of the Right Reverend Bench what its ma tives were for supporting this measure. They thought that as those amongst them who intended to vote for the second reading of the Bill did se, not because it was in troduced by Ministers, but because it was a mea sure introduced when such a state of affairs prevailed in the country as placed them, lie conscientiously be lieved, under the absolute necessity of voting for the second reading of this Bill. The vote given against the ministerial plan of education in Ireland by the greater part of the Bench on which he sat, was a sufficient answer to the remark that h id been male upon that subject. As he occupied a situation in this country which rendered his cha racter of importance to others besides hinasi lf, he trusted the House would excuse him if he occupied some of his time in vindicating himself from a charge not made in this House, hut elsewhere, of inconsistency with regard to the present Bill. His conduct might not be wise, but it certainly was consistent. nig determination to vote ter the second reading of the first Reform bill brought before them was known long before it Caine into that House, and after it had come he made no secret of his intention to vote for the second read ing, with the view of supporting in Committee such modifications as might render it more satisfactory to those who now opposed it. It so happened that he (lid nut vote either for or against the second reading —a course for the adoption of which he could, if it were necessary, aesign reasons for taking, he thought I the House would approve of. He would, however, state, generally, that he telt an insurmountable reluctance to stand forward in opposition to the views and wishes of those whom he was accustomed to look to with respect, and with whom it was at all times his desire, as it was in most cases his duty, to act in concert. Such was the course which he pursued with regard to the first Reform Bill. With respect to that now before them, he had made up his mind, at whatever hazard of misrepte sentation, to give hi• vote for the second reading. He did so, nut because he col. iially approved of the Bill, but because under the existing circumstances of the country that appeared to him the safest and most prudent plan to adopt with respect to a Bill recommended to their atten tion a second time by great majorities of the House of Common', and if not by great majorities of the people, cer tainly with most formidable minorities of them--(A laugh, hear, hear.) He did so, in order that he might be able hereafter to modify its provisions, not, he must be psrmitted to say to such an extent as would trench l upon the principles of the Bill, or as to endanger the speedy settlement of this important question.—(Cheers.) Himself and others, who thought as he did, were placed in this situation ; that seeing the necessity of an extensive measure of Reform, they had none other before them with which to compare the present Bill. No such measure had been ever hinted at till the notice given by the Noble Duke opposite a few nights hack, a notice which he must say come too late. Under the pressure of a necessity then which no man scarcely denied, they were called upon to take into serious consideration the only remedy which had been proposed for an acknowledged evil, whether that remedy were, the best and wisest that could be devised w a s another question. Whether when the first measure of Reform were brought froward one of a more moderate nature would not have satisfied the existing appetite for change be would not pre tend the pruning to Whether a more sp ar i ng applicat i on of hook to the constitution w ou ld not have pare awa y its deformiti es , to icnovate . h say. its Vi;o4ttesitusePdt to tore its verdure, be would not say; but I ' taking things as they ware, after what hs.d taken pl within the list twelve months, it would be as vain to ex pest the sun to go back by the degrees it had gone (low; on the dial as to expect that the feelings and opinions n , he two Houses of Parliament could ever return to precis , * heir lormer state. It was true that the inundation hi,t subsided, but the current had forced its way into new chat, eels from which it was possible only to divert it. It wort}: ippear then to be the part of policy and wisdom to ware} Ind regulate the course of that stream which it not wholly control, to deepen and widen the b•t , in which it was henceforth to flow, in orler that it rnigh . 'ertiliae and not desolate. Whether that were to be tbt happy consummation of the measure now before them mi2h: he doubtful, but all such experiments must be doubliti. He feared that the longer the qmstion wee suspended, rsore dangerous would it become. The longer the peoph were allowed to brood over their grievances, real or image. the more potent must be the remedy which must he at last applied.—(Hear.) Something might be said on the improved c tndition of the people during the last fen ,•,-ars, but he would not at present enter into that topic lie would merely allude to the danger with which the Pro testant Church had beer threatened. It bad been said tha if the Bill he allowed to pass, the Church would be a.- ticked ; but he hoped better from the good sense of the people, and trusted that when the agitation in tit's mbjeet ceased, the minds of the people would subside into that calmness which was so essential to their prosperity. He believed, however, that they had dancers to encounter, and he knew they were surrounded with difficulties; but ii they were faithful to their trust, they might receive the aff.ction and support of the great majority of those who wished well to religion, and who took the sotande4 view of affairs.—(Cheers.) He would not now consider lie details of the Bill, but would content himself with stating his views of its principle, and to add that he should vote for the second reading, as it would, in his opinion, he hest consulting the dignity of that House, and the peace and security of the country; that in giving that vote, whether he did so with freedom from apprehension as to the result he would not state ; hut if all parties were to concede what they could most conscientious y concede they could concur in a measure for improving the repre sentation, which would conciliate the affections of the people, anti contribute to the strength and the security of all that WA valuable.—(Loud cheers.) The Bishop of EXETER said he would give his opinion in as brief a time al riagilib., and declare the rea sons which compelled him to give his vote in an opposite direction to that of his Went Rev. Brother who had just sit d,wu. That the two Right Rev. Prelates who addressed the House were sincere and disinterested in what they said he was perfecty confident, for he was at a loss to perceive any interestedness in the motives of either of them. He would observe first on what those Rev. Prelates stated respecting the motion of which the Noble Duke opposite (Bucking ham) had given notice. That Noble Duke admitted the necessity of giving Members to large towns, and it was singular that that strongly coincided with the opinions o' those Reverend Prelates.—(Cheers.) It was strange to him that they shraild have waited all this time until a rival expedient had been proposed, which rival expedient pecu liarly fell in with their own notions.—(Cheers, and a cry of " No" from the Bishop of Loudon.) He believed he had not tnisrepresented the Reverend Pr late. That Rev. Prelate had slid that the Noble Duke's had come too late, for that he had found it necessary to make up his mind upon the subject some time before. But why that necessity existed he (the Bishop of Exeter) was at a loss to divine.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.) Ile should have thought that the time for a person to make up his mind on a quereion was when that question was brought forward—(Cheers,)—but it was not so with the Right Reverend Prelate, for some occasion had arisen, which was wholly unexplained, that seemed to make it necessary for him to resolve on the cour;e he should adopt to-night. He (the Bishop of Exeter) must be allowed to say that he was not surprised that any Peer who had already spoken on the question, sho u ld feel it ne cessary to get rid of any inconvenience which had been created in his mind by the notice which the Noble Duke had given. Now, what was the question their Lordships had to decide? It was whether they would consent to the second reading of the Reform Bill. And what had been stated to induce them to consent to it ? It was their approbation of the principle of the Bill. Now had the Bill their approbation ? He would refer to the speeches of the Noble Lords who had opposed it to prove that it had not. The principle, as de • dared in the preamble, was the expediency of Reorming the representation by disfranchising certain boroughs, enfranchising other., extending the right of voting, &c. tie should think that it was itnpos..ib'e for any person who hail read the preamble not to perceive that the Bill it- ! self would not only go to the extinction of the vested right of voting in many cities and boroughs, but work a com plete change in the system of representation in every county, city, and town in England—a change so great as never was contemplated by zny human being, and which, when it was known, excited the astonishment of all who heard of it.—(Ch , ers,) The principle of it seemed to him to effect a complete and entire change in every Case, ex cept in that of the Universities. So great a change ne ver was thought of before, and it amounted, in his opi nion, to something which looked very much like Revo lotion.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)— The NA:Oe Eirl last night had stated an additional cir cumstanc4., that if their Lordships agreed to the second reading they would he considered as acce.ling to the prin_ ciple of the Bill. Was it possible, he would ask, for them to accede it ? He said no, and in his oi,i- nion upon high authority ; for it happened while the Noble Earl had made the declaration of what its principle was, he (the Right Rev. Prelate) had heard and read other princip!rs ascribed to it. He was not about to taunt the Noble Earl, or attribute blame to him, for h tying acted inconsistently with him-t-If in his course of conduct. A question of this sort involved con. siderations which would appear to the same individ ua l in different lights according to the different circumstances in which it was viewed. But which, acting differently at different times, did not subject a man to the charge of inconsistency. The Noble Earl himself would admit that this consideration did not apply to the course or argu ments or propositions. Truth and reason would stand, however it might be necessary for the Noble Earl ta turn round. It. happened that the first moment lie hall taken tip the speech of the Noble Eatl, he read the following sentence:—" The principal objects of this Bill are to make the House of Commons more olemocr i deal. Look at the consequences." He had read on, when he fell upon the following sentence l—" This Bill pissed, a change is introduced ; it will lead to all other changes." Now here was the principle of change alluded to. A third passage ran thus—" I think that much of the power of Government rests on the confidence of the people, and if that confidence be shaken, it is the interest of the Government to take the most reasonable means that suggest themselves to recover that confidence and in sure its continuance. That, however, is not to be done by chart 'ing at once the whole constitution of the House of Commons." Now here was the declaration of the Noble Earl, of what the principle of the Bill was in October last. He regarded the principle of the Bill as revolutionary in the strictest sense. —(Hear, hear.) He knew that the Noble Earl had declared that it was not revolutionary, and in his indignant denial of the charge, he gave a distinction to justify that decla ration. And what wa• that distinction ? The Noble Earl s 6i that nothing could be fairly called a revolution, which did not either amount to a change of dynasty, or which was not wrought by the regular powers of the Con • atitution, but by the direction of certain forces unknown to the Constitution. He would say the Noble Earl's notion of a revolution very materially differed from his. If the Noble Earl's definition was correct, then no revolution had taken place in France in 1792 till Louis XVI. had fled from Paris, for up to that period, great as the changes had been, they all had been brought forward in the regular course of things, by the action of the regular powers of the Government.--(Cries of No, no.) He repeated it, in the early part of the French Revolution, up to June, 1792, every thing that had taken place in the way of de stroying the ancient institutions of the country had had been done by the forms of the Constitution, and had been done by its regularly acknowledged powers. Let him suppose that in this country a vast change was contem plated by the two Houses of Parliament, and assented to by the King—changes which would go to the destruc tion of the present institutions of the country. Suppose that the two Houses were so base as to consent to a Bill for making all the declarations of the Crown equivalent to an Act of Pardament, to which the Sovereign gave his concurrence; would not that be a revolution T And yet it would have been brought about by the regular forms of the Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) Let him suppose that the King, anxious to gra tify the wishes of his subjects, consented to descend from his throne under a form of Government in which only the shadow of monarchy, and the essentials of Republicanism prevailed, would not that which might be done by the me dium of the Houses of Parliament be considered a revolu tion ? But this, he was aware, might be considered to be an extreme case. But supposing that a measure were had re-• course to by a new creation of Peers actually to drown the opinions of that House, and which will unquestion. ably make that House the tool of Ministers—(Hear)— supposing such a course were adopted, he would not, nor would any of their Lordahips hesitate to say that that would lead to a revolution. Whatever might be thought of it, to mention the word " revolution" to those ears ?: lite on the Bench near him—(Loud cheering from Odposition)—still he must call it a revolution. An. .vhatever some of its Noble supporters might thine. others of their Lordships who supported it, gloried it because it was a revolution. The Press also call. it a revolution, and supported it most efficiently, limo, hey considered it so. One Paper in particular, wide! was carried on with a talent that did it credit, had U• these words in relation to the Bill—" This horrid of mockery of a free Constitution which we have hither. endured." This was a Piper which gloried in t:.• measure, because it was revolutionary, and was also he loved to be, if not breathing the pure air of Treasury it: duence, yet was ably and efficiently supported by one high i, Goverom• nt.—(lmmense cheering tiom the Opposition. He considered the democratic elements of , he Constito• rio t s as the best and the most essential which it possessed. But while lie felt that it was so ; lie felt also that it such an element as required the most rigorous restrain. It was like its brother element in the natural world, fir e. which was the most congenial and productive and the most beneficial that moan possessed, and, like it, required to be most vigorously watched, or it would overcome ever, obstacle opposed to it. A great cry had lately been raised against what were called nomination boroughs. They h been called the rotten parts of the State. A grew Statesman, lately deceased, had not called them by that term. lie called them the shameful, but neces sary parts.—( Hear, hear.) With that term he would not quarrel. But he was p,rfectly certain that they could not be got rid of with safety, without some great corrective being put in their place. They had heard much of the usurpation of the rights of the Commons by that House. That such instances had occurred on some occasions, hr admitsed, but that it occurred in so many instances a: w a s said, he must beg leave to deny. Granting there had been such usurpations by that House, hail :there been none by the Common.? There was one he would mention, and a most gigantic one it was, that could be f :id to the blame of the Cominons. That was their sanctioning the publication of the debates in Parlia ment. He considered that the debates in Parlia • ment ought to be c irried on uninflu need by any thing from without. Still he considered it a most beneficial measure th:it the debates in Parliament should be pub lished. It was the hest Reform in Parliament that had ever been devised. But still it was a great innovation by the Commons. If a measure should be introduced to do away with the influence of that House in the other House, and still leave the other corrective,—and an important one it certainly was--such An overwhelmin power would be let, in as would swamp all the other powers of the state, and democracy would be in the ascendant• As that Noble Earl had truly said, that Bill would be considered as part and parcel of the same measure, and he felt perfectly sure that none of their Lordships would ask that they should be considered separately. He ad verted to this merely because he had the au thority of the Noble Earl at the head of his Ma jesty's Government,—(Hear,) —who had only told their Lordships in moving the second reading of the RiP, what was the number of the new Members given to Irtland. Sanctioned by that authority, and following the advice of the Noble Earl at the table, he should not scruple to make one or two remarks on that Bill. Seeing wlt it was to become of the representation of Ireland— seeing that it had gone from the Protestant influence to Roman Catholic population—(Hear, hear)—he could hardly conceive a greater change, more important, ..r more terrible. It appeared to him the more terrible, because he could not disguise from himself that it was part of a system that had been too long practised,— truckling to the Roman Catholics. He saw on all hands a readiness to yield the high and important considerations of the country not to expediency but to c:aniour, and to men whom no Constitution could hold—men who had no gratitude for the efforts that had teen exerted towards them, but who boldly proclaimed, and who had taken oaths which they said admittA of shch explanation, that they could get out of them. 'The days of the Irish church, the Protestant church, were numbered, the very month of its fall had been openly, ostensibly, and authoritatively proclaimed, and in the next November they had been t Id a general election would take place, and at that general election the k tiant spirit of democracy was to rise in all its might, and crush the church of Ireland. This proclamation bad been made, not by some fanatic at the Rotunda—not by some artful demagogue or unprincipled agitator, seeking the influence of the empire for the sake of his own avarice, but it bad been made in that part of the Bri , ish S. nate, second only to thatas,embly in which he had the honour now to stand, and by that man, too, who for his eloquence and geniu., had not long ago been selected by the Lord Lieu tenant of L eland, and not unworthily, to represent the principles of that Noble Lord in Parliament. That gen tleman, whose fortune* and estates placed him above the reach of any temptation of sordid lucre—(Hear, hear)__ that gentleman had been forced by ti,e measure which their Lordships were now discussing, and which they were called upon that night to decide, to leave the peaceful course that he was Vera pursuing, to arm himself in the cause of a Chu: ch which was called the: triumphant Church, while his better feelings recoiled at the work before him; and he was forced to tread his ground under the directions of a spiritual pastor.—(Loud cheers. ) In relation to the question of the Irish measure of Reform, there was one matter which he felt anxious to lay before their Lordships, he meant the origin of the sys tem of representation. It owed i s origin to James the First—he established this system, not as a means of real represent ition, but for the purpose of conferring a small oe netit on those who were settled in .1 hostile population,—a population opposed to them on all civil rights. Kiti,g James felt that it was impossible that any thing like a regular go. veroment could lie carried on in this country except in that way, unless the Roman Catholics of Ireland were treated as slaves, or Englishmen should have a predominant power. That he avowed and declared to be the reason for creating new boroughs—namely, for the purpose of securing the English connexion and the Protestant Church. Within the period of the recollection of their Lordships two measures had been brought forward, which materially altered and considerably changed the Constitution of Ireland. One was ti.e Legislativ e Union, the other the settlement of the Catholic question ; and upon b ith those occasions it was decided that the repre sentation of the Protestant borough should be main tained as essentially necessary, and the only means of do- ing that which would continue to certain boroughs their bri cor n p g o i r n a g t i o f n o . r w ! I r t d b thisi e n e e s ,a s a t r a e t e a rl s b a t the Nob!e D u k e i n sly n ecessary to good faith in Ireland, that the Protestant boroughs should be continued in their existing state. Ele had no hesitation in saying that if any thing else had been proposed, every one of their Lordships would have scouted such an idea ; but such was the effect that was proposed by the Bill. He confessed that it had astonished him that mea sures so detrimental to true religion had been introduced. The:r Lordships onglit not to forget that the oath of their Sovereign bound him to maintain to the utm o s t th e t rue pro fession of the gospel and the Protestant reformed religion, as established by law. Il e w as qu i te sure that if our gracious King conceived that this measure was at all connected with an inroad upon the Protertarit religion, he would deem his oath binding upon him, and be would ask Noble Lords whether they could reconcile to themselves the plain, simple, and undeniable meaning of their own oaths, to the extinguishment of all Protestant power, as given by the existing state of the Corporation boroughs in Ireland to Protestants. There were men who had actually told their Lordships when they got the power that was propo-ed to be given to this Bill, they would so act. He would remind their Lordships they were equally bound, not only not to consent to a measure of this sort, but not to aid in forcing it into the council of their sovereign. If he addressod this to Noble Lords, what ought he to address to his Reverend Brethren ? Wou!d any in ,n among them, if he thought that he (the Right Rev. Pre late) had truly stated the case, venture to sanc tion this measure by their vote ? He was sure they would not. Hz was sure that whatever pledges they had given, no pledge would induce them to go from the sacred duty of protecting their Sovereign's oath os well as the Constitution of their country. If after having had this matter brought before their minds, even in the bum ble way in which he had endeavoured to bring it forward, if they did vote in favour of the second reading of this Bill, they would do so tinder a notion that in doing so they were doing no harm ; and however incapable be was of viewing it i n th e sa m e way, he would be quite certain that his R e ver e nd Bretbn n acted conscientTusly.— (Hear, hear.) He had trespassed long on their Lord ships' ti me , b u t it was with no ordinary emotions be found himself speaking on this subject in, that the most if august assembly in the world. He ro p e tted it—the th foramosttce ni a tt u u g mr u august sh t had n assembly b gee continue tn.iun been—such the it still w o. o t d• was—and Sftioc that God . House grant shouid ever cease to be the most au g ust assembly in the world, England would become the most degraded of all nations.--( Hear, hear.) If that House fell from its high .tation, it would not fall from violence without, for, not withstanding all that might come, the people of this land would never be so false to their own interests, so lost to all sense of propriety, as to be wanting in respect to their Lordships, if their Lordships were not wanting in a due regard to what they owed to themselves. If that House ever fell from its palmy state, it would fall by corruption witbiu. If it fail at i; would fall, if there . were any such, or shou!il be any such, Members in it, '3) , its own degenerat e Members. It had been ordained in host merciful di•per , ation, that if thusa to whom grett interests were confided became false to those interests. they would draw down a full measure of righteous retri •mtion upon their ow n heads. To their Lordships the , m,rdianship of the British Constitution—that-. Con •titution which had at least for a hundred years fostered, nourished, matured, and consolidated the liber ties and happines , of the people of this country—the 4uardianship of that Can,titutio n bad been mainly con fided—to the fidelity- of their Lordships —to th• it Fa ience, and to their firmness. If their Lord,O,ips' House fell, their Lordships wood not only fall with it, hut they would he ground to the dust beneath its ruins. Might God, who had appointed them to high posts, enable them to feel, in this gre,t contest—i n the agony of their country's present depending fate.....miglit He give them wisdom to see, and fortitude to pursue steadily and Earlesidsr that only path whici could lead to honour or sustain them in their path of duty ! True it was that 'heir path was beset with difficulties snd dangers. True it was th clouds and thickset dangers rested upon :it; but one thing was clear and bright, and cue thing only—t o walk uprightly wan within their own power. Aa for consequences, they were in the power of God. Would 'e?y di-trust that poA'er ? He was sensible they would not. The Bishop of LLANDAFF did not rise to enter into detail of the observations made by his Rev. Brother, but to protest against the representation which had been made of the necessary connexion between the measure of Reform intended for this country and the effect of the proposed Irish representation ; also against the probability of not being able tt oppose certain parts of the Bill, if their Lordships voted for its second reading. He contended that he might conscientiously vote in favour of the second reading of the 8.11, and that he should be at liberty to give mature consideration to erery clause curtained in tioa Bid at a future period. If it should appear that the intended representation for Ireland was to destroy the church property, then he was sure the Rev. Prelate who Irid just sat down, would find him prepared to oppose such a system as soundly and as powerfully as the Right Rev. Prelate himself. In the speech their Lordships had just heard, a eh krge was made against himself and others who stood in this predicament,—that of being disposed to vote in favour of the second reading of this Bill, though they had voted against the second • reading of the last Reform 'fill. Six months' experhoice and time for deli. her ation had prepared him to vote for the second reading on this occasion. When he came to vote on the last iiceasion, he felt bound to come to a different conc'uteon. What hid determined him before to give his vote in common with the majority of tnat House against the measure was, that considering its great, its feat'ul importance, it appeared to him at least to be the safir plan to allow time for more fully con sidering the subj..ct ; and the only practical mode that reseoti d itself to him, was that of negativing the second reading.—( Heat.) In case of that being done, another course he thought might be adopted ; but if is was not, then any evil that might have resulted could not be remedied. Another powerful reason why he was induced to come to another conclusion was, that it was agreed in both Houses of Parliament that some measure of Reform was absolutely nece•eary. The words had almost become proverbial—" something must be dente." Six months having now elapsed, and every opportunity for deliberation having been afforded, time had proved that it was not a temporary, a visionary proposition, but a settled ani determined proposition of Reform which their Lordships would have to consider. The measure therefore came befo e the House on this occasion tree from many of tie considerations which naturally led one in the first in stance to reject it.—(Hear, hear.) No other measure had been proposed. Admitted on all hands was it, that something, must be done ; and as had been truly said yes terday, no alternative had been left, no other measure had been proposed to their Lordships.—(Loud cheering.) 14 voting for the second reading of this measure, he by no means pledged himself to the support of the essential, vital parts of the measure, unless satisfactory to his own mind. Much discussion had taken place upon what were the real principles of this Bill ; he trusted therefore th :t a candid construction would be put upon the conduct of thorns wt o voted for the second reading of the Bill, and who might in committee oppose certain parts of it. Reserving to himself that discretion, he felt clear in his conscience in giving his vote in favour of the second reading. He trusted there would be a spirit of conciliation on both sides, and that there would be a gene rat disposition to preserve the tranquillity and happiness of tke country. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would not have con sidered himself justifiable, upon the motion for the Record reading of a Bill so similar in its principles to the one which had so recently been before the House, of occupy ing time in niaking observations thereon ; but he felt bound in this stage, and at the period to which this discussion had come, to make some re marks upon opinions which hid been advanced in the course of this debate in opposition to the measure. In doing so it was not his purpose, as he did not feel it to be his duty, to inquire how far the Right Rev. Prelate who sp. ke first was accurate in stating in a manner so clear, satisfactory, and; able—so calmly and so candidly, his intention of supporting this Bill upon the ground of the necessity of a great change being effected. He should not feel it to be his duty to inquire whether the Right Rev. Prelate acted an unwise or improper part in not taking into his councils for that purpose the Right Reverend Prelate who spoke bst hut one, and who avowed himsell to be the enemy of all Reform...— He understood how that Right Rev. Prelate might feel it to be his object, and at the same time might act con sistent!y with his vie.v of the question, to act the part of a recruiting officer--(Cheers)—no doubt with that sincerity which peculiarly belonged to him.—(Cheers.)-- He should come- ,presently to some of the observations that had been made by the Right Rev. Prelate upon the charac'er and extent of the changes which were proposed to be etTected by the Bill. But first of all be would wish to sav, that in the consideration of the present most weighty and most anxious subject, he agreed with that Right Rev. Prelate, and with other Noble Peers, that on those who originated the Bill rested a great responsibility, not to be confined to his Noble Friend at the head of the Go vernment, but to be shared by those members of it who were less conspietroos than his Noble Friend ; en them all rested a very great responsibility—a responsibility only inferior to that which could have rested upon them if they could have remained silently contemplating the situation in which the country was then placed—the es. trangvment and alienation of the people from the Go. vernment which were then perceptibly growing, the irritation between the middle and upper classes of society which was breaking out in every part and which threatened the existence of the political machine. fie repeated, he should have felt contempt for himself, and contempt for his Noble Friend, if they hail shrunk from the task of endeavouring to heal those wounds under which the country was suffering, and of bringing together that connexion in society which was every day perceptibly severing ; if they had forborne to restore peace and bar rner would tell the Right Reverend Prelate that was not n revolution, and, in asserting that it was, he h a d izeto but t k t t li n eir re o u va ,ut p e e . a_ce (L a u n u d d eot e r b rf e n e r r t s — .) not H to e t n rl Y u ' t i o andn read the History of England wrong.--(Cheers.) It had been justly stated by a Noble Lord who spoke early in the debate, who, by an act of justice, to which he would cethnet a absurdities ei m tdi en to : t p a uv v r t a i s : e u ap l t a a r si l u‘ g ai possible a ud tfo e r , had Haou been sne:antthi,a te v o e ne r c y fe re cently that of an immutable state of the law in a mutable state of things was the Most conspicuous. There were changes which were always incidental to the nature of the world, and of society in every stage. There was no safety in those unavoidable national changes which were taking pl a c e , unless the Legislature took care to watch their progress and to prepare for them. I t was on . that system alone that any thing could b e perfect. He wan not prepared to found any chang e t h at was proposed by th e pr e s en t Bill on any new doctri nes and new circumstances; but what he called on their Lordships to do was, to agree upon how far new circumstances required the application of oil .loetrines. That was ail that was proposed by the present Bill —to go back to the elements of the Constitu tion.—(llear.) Was there anything, he would ask of the Right Rev. Prelate, in the extension of the right of voting to landholders, leaseholders, copvliolders, and others, who had not that right before—to give that privilege to persons who had such practical knowledge and such wealth as gave them a certain weight iu society? Was there anything in the enfranchisement of large, populous, end wealthy places, which had grown so from the enter prise and spirit of individuals, or in the disfranchisement of those places which had gone to decay ? Was there any thing, he would ask, there to be found-which vsB not found in that state of society which formed :he basis of the Constitution ?—(Hear, and cheers.) If he looked to other countries as well as to this, he found :!rat it was on that very power which was acquired by charge of circumstances that their existence depended• He would refer their Lordships to the free Consti ution of the United States.—(Loud cries of Hear.") f the great men who drew up that Constitution ad been guilty of the folly of precluding the accession of he new States, the re would have been an end by this me of that ecneitution. He asked them, 11 their Lord