The Sun. — London, England, 1832-07-28 00:00:00

. Noble Personage said, even were he disposed to accept a salary, yet be could not bring himself to do so when he considered the wretched state of the peasantry about the neighbourhood where he resided. All that his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for St. Mawes had done was to put a question, whether it was the intention of his Ma jesty's Government to abolish sinecure offices? He had a just right to complain that no answer was returned to that question. He (Sir H. Hardinge) protested against the tone adopted in another place against Members of this House. Not only had the Noble and Learned Lord who held the highest judicial office in the country spoken against his Hon. and Learned Friend in the most re prehensible manner, but another Noble and Learned Lord, following his example, described the Hen. Member for Dundalk as odious to his constituents. New be would put it to the House whether that was a proper course to pursue ? Was it not a direct attack on the rights and privileges of the House? Here they found a Noble and Learned Lord, of the very first station, for whose great talents he (Sir Henry Hardinge) entertained the highest respect, pursuing a course altogether at variance with his rank and official character, while, at the same time, another Noble and Learned Lord was induced to follow him. This system, if continued, would tend to put an end to the whole freedom of debate. He (Sir H. Hardinge) was quite sure that if his Noble Friend the Duke of Welling. ton had been :ware of the manner in which the question was put by his Hon. and Learned Friend, and had heard t' a e epithets which the Noble and Learned Lord had raeade use of against him, he would never have suf fered them to pans unreproved. He declared there was nothing whatever in the whole coure of the transaction, as regarded his Hon. and Learned Friend. that justiff d the language which the Noble and Learned Lord had made use of against Mr. R. PALMER deprecated the continuance of this dis eueainn to so unreasonable an hour, when public business remained to he transacted. If language of the descripti n stated to have been used in another place had actually been used, every P:11/1 in that House and the country must regret it—(Hear)—but the House ought to hear in mind that reports were frequently garbled and in .ceurate. In deed he bad been told that the Noble and Learned Lord 'himself had found fault with the report, and he hoped his Lordship would take the earliest opportunity of stating the fact. Mr. R. GORDON contended that neither of the Nolde persons alluded to by the Hon. and Gallant Member (Sir H. Hardinge)—namely, the Dike of Richmond and Lord Durham—had had any wish to accept salaries ; but they were requested to do so, in consequence of the duties they had to perform. Mr. C. P THOMSON said that his Noble Friend, Lord Durham, who was at present not in this country, was most anxious to decl ne the salary attached to his office ; but he was told it was expedient for the public service that he should take it. Mr. C. PELHAM gave notice that he should call the attention of the House to the subject on Monday next. The discussion then dropp d. THE BUDGET. The House went into Committee. Lord ALTHORP—I rise, Sir, to lay before the House, that financial statement which it is my duty to bring under the consideration of Parliament. lam quite aware that the circumstances under which I present myself are such, that I cannot come forward with any sanguine views of the future, or gratulatory recapitulation of the past. lam quite aware that my statement must be one which a Chan. cellor of the Exchequer has been unaccustomed tortnake of late years ; and, therefore, I have to throw myself on the indulgence of the House. --(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances. I am conscious that there is only one course which I ought to pursue, or which I can pursue, and that is, to detail fairly and plainly what the state of the case is with respect to the revenues of the country, not en deavnuring by either disguise or concealment to deceive the House or the country on any one item connected with that revenue.—( Hear, hear.) This, lam sure, is the best mode for me to adopt—the only justifiable mode for any Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now, Sir, the view which I have to present to the House of our finances must apply, in the first instance, to what is past, before I enter into the question of what I think likely to be the prospect for the present year. In consequence of the change that bas taken place in the reckoning of our financial year, it will be necessary, when referring to what is past, to take the year as ending on the sth of January; but when I come to the consid-ration of the prospect for the present year, in order to make a fair comparison, it will he most proper for me to take the year as terminating on the sth of April. With these preliminary observations, I shall now immediately proceed to the statement which I have to make. Sir, I will begin by stating the circumstances of the revenue during the year 1830, and then proceed to compare those circumstances with the circumstances of the present year. The national income of the year 1830 (ending sth January, 1831), was 50,056,6161., and the expenditure was 47,142 9431., leaving a surplus of 2,913,6731. The expenditure of 1831 was within 1-9,6461. the same as that of 1830 ; that is to say, the expenditure of 1831 was 47,123,2971. This similarity of amount does not arise from the equality of the votes of the two years (for the votes of 1831 exceeded those of 1830), but is owing to there being a saving in 1831 from the reduction of the Four and a Half per Cents. to the amount of 777,433/. To account for the increased ex penditure, I ought to state, that there is an increase in the Army Estimates of 225,130/., on the Navy Estimates of 280.2521., and on the Miscellaneous Estimates of 238,0081. This gives an apparent in- crease of 743,3901. ; but from this we have to deduct a part of the charge on the Civil List, which has been transferred to the amount of 322,611/., and then we shall have a remaining excess of 420.779/. In the Ordnance Estimates there is a decrease of 149,374/. From the Un claimed Dividends a sum of 127,400/. All these sums together leave for an excess in the votes of the House dur ing that year 757,7971., which makes a difference, as I have already stated, of 19,646/. The net income of 1830 was 50,056,6161., and the net income of 1831 was 46 424,440/. ; leaving a deficiency for the year 1831 of 3;632,1761. This diminution has taken place principally in items of the customs and excise, there being a deficiency in the customs of 1,025,0521., and in the excise of 2,340.360/. ; there has also 6-en a decrease in the stamps of 110 292/., and on the general taxes, owing to a delay in their collection, of 149,062/. ; in addition to which there is a deficiency in the miscellaneous, to the amount of 113,030/., owing to the payment on account of the Four per Cents., and of the hereditary revenues in Scot. land, these three items together making a deficiency of 372,3841., or, taken in conjunction with the deficiencies in the customs and excise, of 3,737,7261. On the other band, there has been an increase in the past office of 64,194/. and on the unpaid dividends of 11,426/. These items refer to the year ending the sth of January. The House is aware, as I have already stated, that the expenditure of 1831 amounted to 47.123,297/., and the income to 46 424 440/. ; consequently there was a defici. ncy 698,857/. I have already shown that the diminution of the income of the year was 3,632,176/. ; and we now see that the deficiency to meet the expenditure was 698.857/. Of course, we must deduct the amount of the surplus, in order to show the deficiency of the year ; and it therefore appears that the state of the revenue at the commencement of 1832 was, instead of having a sur plus of 2,973,000/. as in 1831, a deficiency to the amount of abut 700,000/. It is right, however, that lf shouls remark, that this result arose not at all from any falling off in the consumption of taxable articles, but from a dimi nution in the amount of the taxes. A large reduction was made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, my predecessor. in 1830. a considerable portion of which came into the Income of 1831 ; and I myself also made large reductions —reductions which, together, have turned out larger than the income of the country could afford. The reduction in the Custom+ on Coals and Slates has been about 900,000/., on Barilla 90,000/, and on Sugar and Molasses 300.0001. ; besides which, there has been a deficiency in the Corn Duties of about 200,000/. ; making altogether a deficiency of 1,485,0001., which, however, has nothing to do with the consumption of the people. In the Excise, the reduc tions have been Lain greater ; the reduction in the Bret Tax amounts to 2,350,000/., on Leather to 200,0001., on Cider to 50,000/., and on Printed Calicoes (including the drawback) to 675,000/ ; besides which, there has been a diminution in the Candle Dnty to the amount of 20,000/., chiefly arising from an expectation having been formed that some reduction in that duty would take place. Altogether, these reductions amount to 3,295,000/., which, added to the Customs, make the reduc tion, as compared with the former year, 1,414,5881. But the deficiency of the revenue, as I have already stated, is 3,632,176/. ; and, therefore, the statement that I have just made proves that there has been a considerable in crease in the consumption of other taxable articles during the year. I think this circumstance must prove satisfac tory to the House. Far myself, I have, perhaps, been ter, sanguine, for I certainly did expect a greater increase of consumption ; but, at all events, it is gratifying to find that so large an increase has actually taken place. It is now my duty to state, that the deficiency which existed at the end of the year was considerably augmented at the end of the April quarter ; the reason of this is, that a large portion of the estimates voted in the preceding year came to be expended during the first quarter of the year 1832, and, consequently, the estimates that had re ference to the first quarter were not diminished in thtir amount. It is owing to this circumstance that the deli ciency on the sth of April amounted to 1,240,000/. This certainly is a large deficiency of income, and ought, I admit, to be regarded with general regret. The mode in which the Government has endeavoured to meet this defi ciency has not been by the proposal of any new taxes; but we have tried to the very utmost to make reductions in the estimates of the year ; these reductions, however, could not take effect previous to the month of April, and therefore as yet they have not been brought to bear upon the deficiency I have just stated. We have reduced tl e Estimates, as the House is aware, to an amount altogether not less than upwards of two millions. We have also looked to reduction, as far as we could, in the amount of the expenses of the different public offices. With respect to the late Administration, I must do them the justice to say that they acted with great vigour in this way. On re ferring to their labours, I find that in 1828, the first year of the Duke of Wellington'. Administration, the reductions effected amounted to 188 941/. ; in 1829 they were 12,019/ ; in 1830 they were 109,1291. ; making toge ther 340,0891. This certainly was a large reduction, and of course rendered it the more difficult for us to continue and extend these diminutions. The reductions, however, which we were able to make during the first year that we were in office amounted to 231,353/. ; and during the present year, I think that I am below the mark, wl.en I state that they will amount to 100,000/. I therefore think that we have a fair claim to say that we have ex erted ourselves to some effect as far as we have gone, and I trust that we shall find ourselves able to go on in the same course.--(Hear, hear.) This, I a i ipreheuil, is the only mode in which the deficiency ought to be made up; hut I am prepared to say, that if it appears that we cannot make reductions sufficient to meet the income of the country, it will be absolutely necessary to ap peal to Parliament to strengthen the resources of the country for the payment of its expenditure; and I am perfectly satisfied that after I shall have proved that the reduction of the expenditure has been carried as far as is consistent with the safety, interests, and honour of the country, I shall not fail to receive the support of the Parliament, even if it shou d be toy misfortune to hive to propose such a measure.—( Hear.) I am sure, that when the House comes to look at the whole of the revenue and expenditure of the country, they would see that the d. ficiency was not of an amount upon 'he last two years, taking them together, that need excite any degree of alarm. I shall now proceed to compare the revenue of t ,, e . country from April to April, bringing the statement down to the April of the present year. The interest and expenses of the public dent will amount to 27,826,000/. ; the interest on Exchequer bills to 662,984/ ; ' l 'e other charges on the man tgeinent of the Consolidated Fund will amount to 1 741.000/. ; the cost of maintaining She Army to 7.876.000/. ; the Navy to 5,842,835/. ; the Ordnance to 1,478,0001. the Mi-cellaneous to 2,930,000/., the total being 47,858,4271. The iutereet of the debt then remaining the same as before, there would be but a difference of 3 000/. in the payment upon Exchequer Bills. The whole interest both upon the funded debt and the Exchequer Bills, the House will observe, amounts to 28,365,000/., and the other charges upon the management of the debt to 1,971,0001., waking, as I have said before, the expenditure of the last year amount to 47,858,4271. (Hear, hear,) The estimates for the present year altoge her amounted to 45,696 376/. This, I beg to say, is an amount less by 2,000,000/. than the estimates of last year. I have yet to state the probable produce of taxes and other sources of revenue, and to lay be fore the House the means generally by which his Majesty's Government propose to meet the expenses of the current year, and this statement I shall endeavour to make as clearly and as accurately as I can ; and in looking to the fu'ure, I hope I shall succeed in laying before the [louse matters as they actually are ; and I can sincerely assure them that I have no wish to do otherwise than to en deavour to render a strict account of the financial condition of the country. I shall begin this part of the subject by stating that the Customs' dories fur the year ending the sth of April last, produced a revenue of 16,275,0001. I expect that in the year ending the sth of April, 1833, the duty on imported cotton will cause an increase amounting to 260,000/. ; that the saving from the discontinuance of the linen bounties will amount to 100,0001. I also expect a considerable increase of revenue from the duty on tobacco. The duty on this articie has gone on regularly increasing for a long time past; in the year 1830 it was 4 ,858,000/., in 1831, it amounted to 2 910,0001., and in the year 1832 it rose to 2,995 000/. I think I am justified in expecting in the present year an increased revenue from tobacco that will yield 35,0001., and I think the House will agree with me that I are also warranted in anticipating from the wine duties an equal amount; true it is that in the last year there was no increase, but that is easily accounted for by the circumstance, that people, being aware that a change was about to be effected in the scale of duties, availed themselves of the long notice to lay in large stocks, and therefore I think I have a full right to expect that in the course of the ensuing year there will he an increase, and I think it will he admitted that I am not going too far in stating that increase at 33,000/. Taking then 260,000/. for cotton and 70,0001. for the other two, may calculate that we shall have in the customs a total increase of 430,000!. ; let that be added to 16,275,000!., gives the whole amount of customs at 16,705,000!. We must, however, deduct from that a sum of 500,000/. being the amount of duties received upon corn, which I hope we shall hear nothing of this year, the prospect from the harvest being so good, that I trust we shall this , eason have no necessity for any importation of foreign corn. For this reason, then, I feel bound to make from this sum a deduction of the 500,0001. I have further in this place to observe, that we must make a re duction of 100,000/. more on account of the diminu- tions in the new scale of duties contained in the schedule to the Customs Duties' Bill ; and there must also he a deduction of 80,0001. on account of Sugar Duties. We shall then have a total of 830,000/. ; which being de ducted from the gross sum of 16,705 000/., leaves a re• or-minder of 15 871,000/. I think then, as far as I can judge, that no one will say I have exaggerated in any of these cases, and that it will turn out that I have been perfectly justified in the anticipations in which I have in dulged. lam perfectly ready to admit that the income ,f the country has not, during the last two years, at all come up to what might have been the expectations formed ,if it two or three years ago ; but I have no difficulty in saying, that it will appear th it two of the causes which have kept down the amount of the revenue are causes that will no longer continue. Tne two causes to which I 'nude are the political excitement which has for some time past prevailed throughout the country ; and the other, though ore to which I never attached much importance, yet it did materially affect the Customs—l mean the pre valence of cholera. lam sorry to say that that cau-e still continues, but we have every reason to hope that its operation will not be of long duration. The third cause to which I attach the most importance, as having tended to depress the revenue, is the state of the currency. It is well known that during the past year the currency has been gradually contracting—that throughout the whole _ . of that period - the exchanges hive been decidedly against this country, and that has, of course, produced a consi derable stagnation of trade; but, fortunately, it is a cause which no longer exists, and is not likely in future to ope ate. The exchanges are now in favour of this country, tnd tl , us that which I considered tl e principal catiAe of .it dine may now be con..ideled at an t-nd. Having said so touch about the state of the Custotw, I now come to the object of the Excise. In the year ending the sth of Apri, last, the Excise amounted to 16,516,632/. I think I may calculate that the increase of the Matt Duty will this year mount to 220,0001.—that the Duty on Hops will be 56,0001.—that the drawback upon Printed Cottons may he estimated at 165,0001.—an i that several minor mat ters will, taken together, yield 150,0001. From the total ~f these items, we must make some deduction ; for instead of our having, as was calculated, an addition of 600,000/. in the Spirit Duties, there has been a tailing off in these to the extent of 191,0001. Not that I believe the consumption of spirits has materially diminished within the time, but there has been only a small stock kept on hand, and I have no loubt that there will speedily he such an increase as to mak, good any temporary deficiency that may exist ; tbereforel think we may assign some portion of the 150,000/. to the increase that may reasonably be anticipated in the .pirit duties. Then, if we allow for the improvement that may be expected from the increased income arising from auctiims, licenses, paper, soap, starch, and vinTar, we shall obtain a total of 204,6001. ; but taking these at only 150,0001., it will not be said that I am sanguine in fixing the malt and hop duties, and others that 1 have mentioned, at 631,000/., which would give for the Excise a total of 17.207,632/. I am aware from this we must make a deduction of 350,000/. for the repealed duty on candles, which will leave the net sum 16,857,632/. As to stamps and assessed taxes, they remain the same as last year. Then, as I have before stited, we have the customs 1 5,807,000/. ; excise, 16,857,632/. ; the stamps upwards of seven millions, with the assessed taxes and the miscel- ianeous sources of revenue the same as before, yielding a total of 4 6,470,000/. The estimates for the current year, with the expenses of the consolidated fund, amount to 45,695,3761., and the surplus arising from the year ending the sth of April, 1833, to 773,6241. This of course will he set against the deficiency of the year 1832, which will reduce the deficit upon the two years to 466,7891. Honourable Members, I trust, will do me the justice to admit that I have endeavoured to stite the prospects of the country as low as I possibly could. For the year now going on, the revenue, as compared with the estimates, ought to yield a surplus of 770,000/. I believe I have now stated, at least as far as my recollec tion serves me, I have stated all that is necessary in this the first opportunity I could have had in the present Ses sion of laying herore the House the views of his Majesty's Government respecting the income and expenditure of the country ; and I do not think it is at all necessary for me to occupy the attention of the House any further, reserving to myself the privilege of giving hereafter any explanation that may be required. I have now to state, in conclusion, that after the most deliberate consideration of the subject, his Majesty's Government have arrived at the determina tion of proposing the renewal of the Sugar Duties. Filling the situation which I do, I am, of course, called upon to move such renewal. My intention in rising was certainly to conclude with this motion ; but I thought, and I am sure the House will concur with me, that I ought not to have made any such proposition without entering into a full financial explanation. If there were room for a re duction of those duties, there is no one who would feel greater pleasure than I should in proposing such a r , duetion. I have not lost sight of the fact that we have been told, that with a falling revenue we ought to endeavour to reviveit by encouraging an increased consumption through the means of diminished duties; and it is further urged that, with the prospect of a deficiency, it was not of much import ance whether that deficiency was a little more or a little less. I confess I cannot understand the force of this rea soning ; but, with respect to the fact, I may take leave to observe, that we have no ground for anticipating a defi ciency in the revenue, and surely, will any prospect of a surplus, we should not he forward to relinquish any source of Revenue. In a word, I think the House will agree with me, that the argument to which I am now re ferring does not apply to the present state of things. I regret to soy, that in the situation in which I stand I find myself called upon to move the renewal of these duties without any reduction whatever; and it only now remains fur me to put a resolution with that view into your hands..—(Hear.; The Noble Lord then moved a resolution, declaring that it was the opinion of that Corn inittee, that the several duties hitherto levied on sugar and molaeses. he continued till the sth of April, 1833. Mr. GOULBURN said that it being now admitted that there e as a deficiency in the revenue— Lord ALTHORP b gged to correct the Right Hon. Gentleman; there was not any deficiency anticipated in the present year; on the contrafy, he expected a surplus of 770,000/. Mr. GOULBURN resumed—There might be a surplus on the present, but so great was the deficiency on t e pre ceding year, that he expected 770,000/. was not sufficient to counterbalance it by a sum of 460,000/. ; therefore, upon the last nine quarters there was an aeetral deficiency that could not be denied. The Noble Lord, he had no doubt, would recollect that upon the first occasion lie made a financial statement to the House, he (Mr. Goul burn) warned him against the system which lie then fol lowed, and he regretted that that warning had been thrown away. He thought then, as now, that the affairs of a country could not be well managed when the revenue pre sented such a picture. There could be no doubt that now, in a time of peace, and at a period of that peace when it peeuli irly behoved this country to assume an im posing attitude, it would be impossible that her welfare at home, or her interests abroad, could be suffi ciently promoted while her finances were in a disordered state. No man could deny that the present was a time in which it was of the highest importance to us to command the respect of our allies and the fear of our enemies. It was likewise universally admitted, that this country, incapable as it was of maintaining a large military esta blishment, must always feel its great strength to lie in its financial power—in the credit and the public confidence which would enable us to meet any emergency. The Right Hon. Gent. complained of the manner in which the estimates were prepared : some of them for five quarters, some for fours some terminating at one period of the year, and some at another. He also thought the House and the country had much reason to disapprove of the large amount of unfunded debt which was allowed to remain— a debt that, in the event of any untoward circumstance occurring in the course of our foreign policy, might lead to the most disastrous results. He regretted to notice the existence of such an amount of unfunded debt ; and he regretted it the more, e hen he brought to mind the possi bility of the payment of that debt being postponed to a later period than was usual. With reference to the Noble Lord's observations as to the financial year, he understood that the object of the Noble Lord in making the cnange was, that he objected to the practice of voting the esti mates at a period after the estimates for the preceding year had all been expended; that he objected to taking a vote in April, for services that had previously only been provided for up to the sth January, and the Noble Lord, therefore, wished to have the money voted before it was expended. But the Noble Lord had not correctly under stood the practice, which was to calculate the estimates so as to have a sufficient surplus in January to carry on the eervice.up to April. If the estimates were now to be cor rectly made up to April, were to include the provision be tween January and April, the Noble Lord ought in fair ness to have Estimates for five quarters, as the proper Estimates for the year, instead of four quarters. If, there• bare, there were considerable reductions made, as he ad mitted, yet they ought to decide on the financial merits of the Noble Lord to be balanced against the surplus in hand, reckoning by the ordinary financial year. He would not, however, dwell on this subject. The Noble Lord relied on making further reductions in the Revenue Departments, besides those he had already made ; on looking, however, to the state of tbose Departments in 1824, be could not discover the large reductions for which tne Noble Lord took credit. He did not believe the reductions of the Noble Lord would exceed 60,000/. or 70,0001., which was much below the comparative statement of the Noble Lord. The House would recollect that when the Noble Lord proposed the alteration of the wine duties on a prin ciple of revenue, he and his friends hail stated, that as a matter of revenue that alteration would not answer the calculations of the Noble Lord. It was not, however, as a matter of Revenue that he had objected to that alteration, so much as an infringement on the comfort of the con sumer. He had then stated that a great reduction of the consumption would take place if the duty on that wine which was used by the majority of time middle classes was rais d, which would not be compensated by the increased consumption caused by the lowering the duty on the higher-priced French wines, which were used by the rich. The statement of the Noble Lord, this evening, had showed that his proposition had not oeen justified. Much of the increased duty the Noble Lord had taken credit for, arose from the duty on all the stock on hand; and when that was deducted, it would be proved that the consumption bed not increased. Up to the 14th of the present month, the latest period to which the returns had been made out, the diminution of the consumption of Portuguese and Spanish wines was 274,000 gallons, while the increase of the consumption of French wines was only 15,000 gallons. In the ensuing year, therefore, when there would be no stock in hand to levy the increased duty on, the Noble Lord would not find any increase of consumption to warrant that calculation he had made of an increased duty. The Noble Lord anticipated teat the increase of the re venue from that source would be 180,000/.; but when the wine in bend was taken into corisideration, it was no: likely to produce Imre than 35,000/. He, therefore, had no reason whatever to change the opinion he had formerly given. He should like to know what we hail gained tram France as an equivalent for the indulgence we had shown to her wines, as he remembered that what France was to do in this respect, was held out to the House, at the time the change was made, as an argument to induce it to con sent to the change. He had not yet seen any similar in oulgence granted by France to any of our productions, and not seeing that, he could not say that the alteration was more recommended by promoting an intercourse be tween the two countries, than by increasing the revenue, and promoting the consumption of French wine. The Noble Nord had adverted to the increase of the malt duty, which he had heard with great satistaction; because, with out arrogating any merit to himself, he might be permitted to remind the House, that when he had proposed the abolition of the duty on beer, he had stated that he anticipated there would be an increased consumption of Over, and a diminutive consumption of spirits. He had, therefore, heard with satisfaction, as an evidence of the in tichtmt malt r e: e inul a hntn s ato e di : teaynti: consumption otriaafmnnscendprdeei trafoaisitarfesit( nefarious citu,olsheoeisenesemdoasper , o uerm oenti f mmoyhwhe pepbaoldeoesn.eu,e,ar compound th a t (e h ig a t the consumption of considerable hopes, third. inn)g, li fa n e o trwhdetletraeshekrfeeioanari decrease eo, consume o w t h o fa h t i t which h y e e . t A u :s e n he of hadunderstood n more ot i n w cr h e o f a r i the Noble hoped Nbeverage,)ble tli o a hr t in the noth t te illiciteen ensuing fda year fiilel ad the consumption of spirits would decrease still more. He would not further detain the House. He believed that the Noise Lord was not too sanguine in the hopes he had formed of time resources of the country ; and there wee every like lihood that those hopes would be realized under the ordi• nary circumstances of the country. If there were no necessity for the country to make any new and greater exertions—if there were no new and unforeseen calamity, he should be willing to run the hazard fur the four nex , quarters, though there was a deficient revenue. But when he looked at the probability of there being a call upon us for greater exertions, and when nothing was done to diminish, but rather to increase, the accumulated pressure upon our finances, he could not look forward with any thing like hopes that the deficiency would be supplied. Ile derived some hopes, indeed, from understanding that the Noble Lord had abandoned his ideas of further reduc ing taxation ; he derived some hope from hearing the Noble Lord express regret at the deficiency of the revenue, which made him believe that the Noble Lord would return to the old practices, and endeavour to place the finances on a solid footing. At present, certainly, he looked for ward with some apprehension to the revenue being insuf ficient to meet the expenditure. He was satisfied that if some efforts were not made to obtain a surplus--though it might not be a large one—we might be exposed to great difficulties. Lord ALTHORP explained, that there was no danger that the deficiency bills would not he paid off as they came due in the current year. He conceived that the apprehen sions of the Right Hon. Gentleman were destitute of foundation. The Right Hon. Gentleman, too, was mis taken in saying that the comparative estimates should be fir five quarters. As they were not calculated to include the surplus, but only from April to April, there were only four quarters on which the comparison was founded. Mr. GOULBURN explained, that his allusion was not to the deficiency bills, but to the bills charged on the Con solidated Fund. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS must say that there was not a man in the empire who did not look with great appre hension at the present state of our revenue, as growing out of the paralysed state of our trade and manufactures. The Nole Lord ad - flitted, that up to January last year the deficiency of the revenue was 1,200 0001 ; and the Noble Lord expected that up to Janu try, 1833, the in crease would be 800,0001. He should like to know, in the present aversion to speculation, and present dullness of trade, when no man entered into any concerns beyond what were indispensable, how the Noble Lord had founded his expectation ? Numberless inquiries had been made by Parliament, but nothing had been done, and there would be the same uncertainty in trade hereafter as there had lately been. The No ale Lord had made a strange admis sion in saying that he should not propose, in the present state of the Finances, to make any reduction in the sugar duties. That was all the Noble Lord said of the colonies. Formerly the Noble Lord bad held out hopes of an im proved fiscal policy being adopted towards the colonies, which was to be made known to the House of Commons. The Noble Lord bail, however, not said one word on the subject, to which the Government was so strongly com mitted. The Hon. Member quoted the dispatch of Lord Goderich, dated December 26, 1831, stating that a mea sure of financial relief for the colonies would be submitted to Parliament during the present Session. Why did not the Noble Lord explain what measure was meant? After this announcement an explanation was required. Lord ALT HORP bad not entered into any explanations as to the colonies, because the measure of relief was condi tional on the adoption of the Oiders of Council. In the Crown Colonies, which bad acted on these orders, it was intended, as the fairest means of relief for them, to remove a part of their local taxation. That, he believed, would give them a great relief, while it would not injure the sale of the produce of any other colonies. Sir H. PARNELL said, that in 1830 it was possible to have made a reduction of five millions ;-Ist, by atio• fishing toe Sinking Fund-2d, by reducing the expendi ture—and one million by the reduction of the Four per Cents. The Right Hon. Gentleman had directed all his efforts to one point only, and had merely reduced the Four per Cents. When the Right Hun. Gentleman complained of the deficiency of the revenue, he ought to recollect, and the House would suffer him to remind it, that the Budget of his Noble Friend was not carried into effect. His Noble Friend had proposed not so much a redution as a transfer of taxation, the loss from the reduction of taxes be proposed to make good by other taxes. But the House refused, and that was the cause by 'he revenue was de ficient. It was not the fault of his Noble Friend. He could find no fault with his Noble Friend's statement, and he relied on his Noble Friend's exertions to reduce the expenditure—to bring that down to the revenue. It his Noble Friend, as he hoped, should be continued in office, he ought to remember, that under the new Parliament be would be the only finance Mini•ter who ever had it in his power to reduce the expenditure; other finance Ministers might have been as willing as his Noble Frienl, but in the former state of the representation they had not the power. He linked forward to the Reformed Parliament, in the expectation that it would effect a material reduction in the expenditure. He complained of public money being paid into the Exchequer, which he considered perfectly unnecessary, and an incurrence of useless expense. He thought the Exchequer might be abolished with advantage. It the principle which the First Lord of the Admiralty bad adopted in the administration of the Navy—that of consolidation— (Hear, hear)—were intronuced into the Treasury, and also into the army, it would be attended with considerable advantage to the public service, as well as saving of expense. No branch of the public expendi ture was so much scattered about as the administration of the 7,000,0001. allotted to the army. It would be much better if these various divisions were consoli dated ; and he believed if this were done, it would be found that we were keeping up a much larger force, both at home and abroad, than the public interests required. He complained that the House of Commons had not sufficient information of the nature and extent of our colonial resources, and of the means which they derived from themselves.—(Hear, hear.) If this subject were properly taken up and inquired into, he believed that we should be able materially to diminish the expense of these colonies to the mother country, as well as to increase their trade and prosperity. He contended, also, that all duties which fall on manutlctured goods, and which tend to diminish their consumption, ought to be abolished, as in the case of glass and of newspapers. Notwithstanding the deficiency, he did not think the country was in so low and depressed a state as many per sons were in the habit of contending.—(Hear.) Sir ROBERT PEEL thought the Noble Lord had acted perfectly fair in laying before the House, as far as he was able, an estimate of the exact state of our financial prospects ; and' though these, certainly, were nut very prosperous, yet he did not think the deficiency was such as to give any serious cause for alarm.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet, that there was an elasticity in the resources of the country, more than adequate to the demands upon it. He did not, however, think it politic to h ive a deficiency, for the Governmeni might be driven either to incur fresh debt—and when he spoke of incurring fresh debt, he included the issuing of Exchequer bills, and all those expedients which were re- sorted to for the purposes of turning off a temporary in convenience —(Hear, hear)—or the only other course wou.d be the imposition of fresh taxes. Now he thought it much better to keep those taxes which are already laid, than to repeal them, and then be driven to impose others in their stead. In the present state of public feeling, however, he must say that he did not think it possible to keep up a great surplus revenue—(Hear, hear)—and when he recommended Ministers to keep up an excess of reve nue over expenditure, he did not contemplate such a sur plus as might be appropriated to the purpose of paying off any part of the debt, but sufficient to provide against con tingencies or unexpected emergencies. It was much bet ter to maintain a tax to which the people were habi tuated, than run the risk of being compelled to impose a new one. When a new tax was laid, many wa)s were found of evading it, but when it had existed for five or six years, tne Excise and Revenue officers disco vered and prosecuted impostors. Capital also became used to its operation.—(Hear.) He spoke of the genera lity of taxes, and without reference to the extreme case of a tax which might have become particularly odious. He could not, however, concur in the gloomy view which some persons took of the state of our finances,—persons who even ventured to doubt our ability to maintain the public faith; he had no such opinion.—(Cheers.) Nor could he agree with those who contended that the state of the revenue indicated any increase of privation among the labouring classes. There was a set of men who had just started up, and who had discovered that the currency was not sufficiently extensive to meet the necessities of the la bouring roan, and that whereas the Bank issued 17,000,0001. per quarter, they ought to issue 25,000,0001. which they, in their wisdom, had laid down to be the pre cise amount requisite for the circulation ; on the contrary, they found such an increase of consumption in many of those articles which tend much to the comfort of the la bouring classes as to afford matter of congratulation, and give rise to a well-founded belief that their distr esses h a d b ee n diminished, and their privations mitigated. The in crease in some articles of the revenue might be explained by the effect of the previous alterations in the duties ; thus the amount of revenue derived from the duties on bricks, had increased, whilst that derived from the duties on tiles had decreased. That was to be accounted for by the re mission of the duties as stated. The revenue from glass had decreased, but that arose from the practice of making glass thinner, and consequently a less quantity would covet a larger surface. But let them look to the consumption in malt : there had been an increase in the consumption of that one article of 7,600,000 bushels on the average con sumption of the last three years ; that was a test of the increasing comforts and prosperity of the labouring classes, for he considered that malt liquor was to them not a lux ury but a necessary; and when there had been so many objections raised to the operation of the Beer Bill, he re ferred to that one fact to prove its great advantages. This increase of consumable articles was a great proof of the increasing comforts of the lower orders.—(Hear, hear,) The Right Honourable Baronet then adduced the in creased consumption of various other articles in support of this position. Another ground of congratulatiou was the diminution of the public expenditure. The Noble Lord had certainly effected a considerable reduction in this head. But before he could congratulate himself that the whole of that reduction would be permanent, it would be necessary to consider what were the articles on which the reduction had taken place. The principal articles were the extraordinaries of the army and navy. If in the latter for instance, it arose from not purchasing stores, it was clear that such a reduction, though perhaps a very proper one for the current year, could not be calculated on as per manent; for the time was arrived when new ships and new stores would be required. In the army there was no reduction of force which would make a permanent saving. The saving was, therefore, in the Militia and in the Ex traordinares. The saving in the Militia arose from it not having been called out during the last year, which sav• ing, therefore, was not permanent ; but in the Extraordi naries there was a permanent reduction of perhap -200,000/. per annum. The House would observe, that it was very important in all those instances, to inquire whether the reduction was casual or permanent. He did not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet who had spoken last, that a material diminution of expenditure wa to be anticipated is a Reformed Parliament. Why was such reduction to be expected in a Reformed Parliamen , more than in the present ? Did the Right Hon. Baron et think that the Noble Lord opposite would have expe rienced any difficulty in carrying any measure of reduction through the present Parliament ? Sir H. PARNELL—I think not. Sir R. PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that he thought not. He could not, therelore, rely touch on the next Parliament for reduction. He did not be lieve that any measures of reduction which the Noble Lord could propose in the present Parliament would meet with onposition through the selfish feelings of any Mem ber—certainly not of a majority.—(Hear.) Under no fresh constitution of Parliament could the Government an• ticipate a greater reduction than their own sense of duty would lead them to propose, and the good feeling of such a House of Commons as the present would lead them to sanction. The Noble Lord had attributed the diminu tion of the revenue to three causes. To the cholera, po litical excitement, and the state of the currency. With reference to the first cause, he believed that the apprehen sion of foreign Powers had produced a sensible effect upon our trade. With respect to political excitement, the Noble Lord thought that it was about to be at an end, and tbat consequently there would he an increase of the. revenue. He hoped that it might be so, but there ap peared to be no great diminution of it in Ireland.—(Hear.) Lord ALTHORP was understood to say, that the re venue in Ireland had increased last year, notwithstanding the excitement. Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Noble Lord knew best on that point, but he thought the fears entertained in Ire land for the security of property would do more to dimi nish the revenue than the excitement of political warfare. The Noble Lord had also adverted to the currency as one of the causes of the deficiency in the revenue, and he had observed, that the changes which had taken place, as well as the uncertainty which prevailed with respect to ulti mate proceedings, and the effect produced by the fluctua tion in the exchanges, had doubtless contributed much to that state of things in which they at present found them selves. Now in his (Sir R. Peel's) opinion, the Noble Lord had diminished the consequences of the cholera, and he had much over-rated the effects of the changes in the currency. Undoubtedly, however, the Bank had con tracted its issues, and, as a consequence, the proceedings of the conntry banks must have been limited, and the ca pital required for the operations of commerce decreased. Now if this were so, how necessary did it become, on the part of the Noble Lord and his Colleagues, to seize the earliest possible opportunity to place the foundation of all the currency on some sure and satisfactory basis.—(Hear, hear.) Parliament should not be allowed to separate without some expression on the part of the Noble Lord as to the course which the Government intended to pursue with respect to the question now under agitation.-- (Hear, bear.) It was possible, perhaps certain, that the Committee would make no Report dining the present Se-- sion ; and unless Parliament assembled for a short sitting in October or November, which he supposed was rather improbable, six months must elapse before the country could receive information on that most interesting suhjec . (Hear, heir.) He repeated, full six months; for the elections could not, under any circumstances, take place much before December, and as there were snows anti storms in the North at that season, which must be taken into account, it was not at all improbable that the elections might not take place during the present year. With six months of recess, then, before teem, he put it to the Noble Lord whether it would not be politic to put an end to that state of uncertainty which the Noble Lord admitted to have so strong an effect on the issues and the exchanges, by at once stating what were the views of the Govern ment on the question —(Hear, hear.) No one expected the Noble Lord to go into the details which were to form the subject of deliberation hereafter ; but the Noble Lon, and the Government must have already made up their minds on the great leading points of the course they in tended to pursue ; and if the Noble Lord described cor rectly the prejudicial effects of the existing state of uncer tainty, he recommended him to put a termination to it by avowing at once the opinion of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) It was a matter of regret that the revenue during the last two years bad suffered so much diminution ; but he felt convinced that the great s. , urces of national pros perity were unaffected.—(Hear, hear.) Of this, too, he was sure, that no proposition to get rid of their difficulties inconsistent with the preservation of the national faith would be tolerated even for an instant, and that no man or honour in any Parliament would attempt to propose it.— (Cheers.) He was confident, too, while the sources of prosperity were unimpaired, that if any occasion arose which required a national sacrifice, that the people of England would not be found wanting for the effort.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had adverted to the state of the Colonies. He (Sir R. Peel) approached that part of the subject with pain, for be believed no Parliament had ever separated before, leaving the colonies in a state so little satisfactory to the mother country. All they knew with respect to the colonies was, that the Government did not intend to exact the obedience of the islands possessing se parate Legislatures to those Orders in Council which had been the object of so much contention. He wished, how ever, to know, whether the Government persisted in their intention to force the obedience of the Crown Colonies. Every one knew that the Orders, although nominally en forced in the Crown Colonies, were universally disobeyed ; and he put it to the Noble Lord whether, under such cir cumstances, it would not be more consistent with the honour and dignity of the Crown, to withdraw them alto gether ?—( Hear, hear.) While on this subject, he wished also to ask, what reward the Government intended to be stow on the colonies that accepted the Orders ? The fiscal regulations had been abandoned—the discriminating duties were not right,t to b the h e collected oter ; countrybut, if was h he understood pay a the portion Nobleo Lord the Civil List of the obedient colonies. Now, be put it to the Noble Lord, whether, after all they had heard of the necessity of compelling the colonies to bear the expense of their own Government, this was rot an act of retrogra• ding—(Hear, hear)—and a departure from the avowed determination of those who were placed over that depart ment ? He could not sit down without adding a few words on the subject of foreign policy. There were, at this moment, rumours of armaments for the coast of Por tugal, and rumours of armaments for the Scheldt ; God knew with what truth, or for what purpose. Of course it was intended that the expense of these armament, should be paid out of the naval estimates, because no Government could venture to expend a large sum on an armament without coming down to Parliament and demanding a vote for that purpose. He objected, however, under any circumstances, to the course pursued on the strength of documents, which could only tend to mislead the judgment with respect to the question at issue. At all events, he hoped the Noble Lord was prepared to say whether there was the least probability that the treat . ) , d s mt t i f : o ieeg u ahtd l e , ru b pol e irsao r l vpt a eer t roi so, poa e o,tsieva, eiti or d that of to hth that er t?hhoe horrors Holland rHo reswouldhohoped, would p ra.bi i indeed, Tlconsentteoehdea,yt avert eht accept rha tdattthe to ite lament at that moment the existence of war in another country, Portugal. He was convinced that the civil war which raged in that country never would have commenced but for the encouragement given to it by the Government ; Ind this much he might add, that the endangering the peace and prosperity of Portugal by a prolonged civil war, never could prove conducive to the honour and interests o f E ng l an d. Wi t b respect to H o ll an d, he could only say, that if the King refused to ratify the treaty, then the ar tuarnents which must follow would disturb the calculations of the NohleCor(l,;d the surplus he bad calculated on would not be realized. Whether, however, the Noble Lord's calculations were or . were not realized, whatever was done by this country, whatever money was expended to force Holland to sign the twenty-four articles, would _ • .e expended in a manner contrary to the true interests of England—against the independent rights of the Inn her Powers of Europe—and, it incurred in conjunction with France directed against Holland, would be Inconsistent with that course of feeling which the wisest of British Statesmen bad always pursue!, and which might be preg nant with consequences to the peace of the world that no man could foresee.—(Cheers.) Lord MORPETH said, he would take the liberty of making a remark upon a subject which much concerned ► great body of his constituents. It would be remera here(' that there is a Stamp Duty of considerable amount upon Bills of Exchange, which duty was increased a few years ago, and it is found to bear very hard proportionally upon bills for small sums. Formerly, a great part of the transactions in that large manufacturing district with which he was concerned was carried on by the circulation of these small Inland Bills of Exchange, and it was a cir culation calculated to be of great additional value since the withdrawal of the small pound notes. That melt sure has, undoubtedly, many strong and powerful rea sons to recommend it; but it has, unquestionably, been attended with a great decrease of the circulating medium, ,nd a stinting of the means whleh gave life and acti vity to commerce. The circulation of Bills of Es change drawn on account of country banks upon Lon don bankers at a date ❑ot exceeding. two or three months, was well ad►pted to fill up the vacuum, without any of the corresponding disadvantages. From terminating at a specific time, they do not run the risk of producing panic like small notes, by being presented all at once; nor an unlimited and excessive circulation, such as is apt to arise out of re-issuable paper which has no limit of time. It may be further remarked ► that they derive fresh security from the extent of their circulation, as every additional hand through which they pass, and every additional iiddia' indorsed upon their back, furnish additional vouchers for their authenticity. Now this medium of circulation , which would thus appear to be at once both wholesome and useful, has become very rare in the manufacturing district where it formerly prevailed ; so much, in a great degree, owing to the high rate of duty, which causes the ,uin of 1001., if drawn in small bills, to be s u bj e ct to twice the amount of duty that would be required if drawn for in one bill ; it happens hence that the manufacturers are put to considerable expense by having large bills to be broken into small ones ; or else the balance of their accounts remains unsettled in the merchants' books (which is the very worst state of things), from a disin clination to incur the expense of a scamp for a small balm' e; for though the difference of expense may seem very traileg,it must be remembered, that in concerns of trade, p e wits are made of very small savings upon a large number el transactions. It was true that the present state of the revenue di I not invite his Noble Friend to consent to the reduction of duties; but it appeared moat strikingly in the present instance, that the increase in the scale of duties had been attended with a very great diminution of their gross amount. He hoped that his Noble Friend would, during the recess, give his best attention to these cosi , derations, with a view of effecting a diminution of the dn. , ties upon Exchange Bills for small sums at a limited date. Mr. ROBINSON thought, that notwithstanding the deficiency in the revenue during the last two years, there was no reason to despair, and that they might fairly look for a considerable surplus in 1834, if, as he hoped, the Noble Lord persisted in his present course, and made no attempt to raise a Sinking Fund. It had been said that the labouring classes were, by the state of the revenue, in a condition of prosperity. He did not wish to draw a ' discouraging sketch of the state of society; but he feared much that the returns, which showed an increase in the consumption of tea and sugar, were balanced by a falling off in the demand for beef and the necessaries of life. With respect to the Noble Lord's statements on the subject of wines, he could only say, that he had always been ad verse to the increase of duty on the wines consumed by the middling classes, and the reduction of the duties paid on the mare luxurious beverage of the rich, anil the revenue was now suffering under the effect of the change. He re• commended the adoptian of a modified property tax. He m►t,ust frankly say, however, that in his opinion the finan cial statement of the Noble Lord was very candid and satisfactory. Mr. COURTENAY expressed his satisfaction at the change which it was proposed to make in the mode of levying the duties on sugars. Much hail been said of re ductions ; he wished that an official statement of the re ductions which had taken place during the last five years were laid oa the table of the H use; and it would then appear that the Duke of Wellington, without imposing a single tax, had reduced taxation to a greater extent than my 111inister who had precede I him. He agreed with as Right Hon Baronet that his Majesty's present Ministere? had beeu very reserved in their communications on the subject of th it foreign policy. Lord SANDON wished for some explanation with re paid to the manner in which the administration of affairs in the colonies war to be left. He wis'ied also to knout whether the same boon was to be held out to all the co• loniee on the condition of their acquiescence in the Orders in Council ? Adverting to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Worcester on the subject of agriculture? he must say that he did not think that agriculture was in the depressed state which the Hon. Gentleman supposed. I The farmers were perfec'ly satisfied. Colonel SIBTHORPE was bound to differ from the Noble Lord on the subject of the state of agriculture. He express• d his astonish a ►.nt at the congratulations which the Noble Lord had received on his financial exposé. He saw no grounds for a single hope that there wound be any dimintrion of taxation. Mr..BURGE strongly recommended to Government course of proceeding with respect to the colonies which would inspire them with confidence, by giving no counte nance to those who would excite and inflame the passim , of the negro population; and by impressing on the people cif this country that they had the greatest interest in the preservation of the prosperity of those colonies. Lord ALTHORP said, the R ght Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Queen's County, complains that I have not brought lorward a colonial budget. But, Sir, there are greater difficulties in the way of proposing such statement than the Right Hon. Gentleman seems to be aware of. We have been able to prepare estimates of the charges of some of the colonies, and the estimates respect ing the others are in a forward state ; so that I hope thats by the next Ses,ion of Parliament, we shall be able to produce a Budget for the whole of the colonies. With respect, Sir, to the question which has been put to me by the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for T .mwortb, have to say, that it is impossible that the colonies could be induced to adopt those measures for the improvement if the condition of the slaves, which we all have so much at heart, without this country's adopting some measure§ fur the relief of the colonies from the distresses under which they were st present suffering. But when I was asked before, respecting the intentions of the Government i 0 this matter, I said that I should not propose any measure of direct fiscal relief other than by a reduction of the taxes on colonial produce. But, in consequence of the ap pointment 01 a Committee, in each House of Parliament/ to inquire into the condition of the slaves, and other matters connected with the colonies, it has been though t right to withdraw the Orders in Council from thole colonies which have Legislative Assemblies ; and it W$ felt, at the same time, that it would be unfair to exile those taxes from such of the Crown colonies as had adopted the Orders in Council. But the Right H O %. Baronet a s k s , d o we mean to give them this relief, " they resist the adoption? I have only to say, Sir, tba t it is not the intention of the Government to do so—(Hear' hear.) The measure will not expose this country to anY expense, and from what I have heard, I believe that the, giving relief to the col on i es i n t h e i r i nternal taxat i on, w il l be felt to he a great benefit to them. I shall not go further into the subject at present. But when the question come!, regularly I efore the House, I shall, of course, be prepare°, to give the fullest ex pl anat i on . — (H ear .) Th e Right Hon. Member for Totness asks whether the Government has taken any measures to prevent the conversion of per manent into temporary annuities? I think, Sir, that the conversion of perpetual into terminable annuities affords great means of reducing the amount of the debt ; and the . Government have taken no step to prevent that conver' sion. But perhaps, Sir, the question of the Right Hoc. Gentleman refers to a determination which has been come to respecting the purchase of the annuities of p e rsons above eighty years of age. It was found that annuitant s above that age took an unfair advantage of the regulation , and that their annuities were made the object of a sys tematic speculation upon the Stock Exchange ; and an alteration was made in consequence, limiting the of the to eighty.eannuitants who m i g h t ava il t h emse l ves ef ag the e conversion The Right Honourabl e Gentleman has also asked if I have any hope that France will give us commercial advantages, in return for th e arrangements which we have made in favour of French trade? Sir, I have sanguine hopes that the Governmen t of France will relax some of tLe restrictions upon our tride.—( Hear, hear,) Ido not say that anything of th e kind has y et b een done, but I have strong hopes that it will he done.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth entered, as he fairly might, into 1 variety of topics connected with the finances of the court' try, respectin g some of which I entirely agree with biro' although I cannot go so far as tie respecting them all,'" (Hear.) I agree with him as to the policy of changing ° oad tax for one less oppressive. I agree with him as the propriety of having a large excess of revenue over eS penditute; and I could have wished that it teas possible tor me to calculate on a larger excess; but I think that 1 0 the circumstances of the country, the arrangement which I have adopted will be found equal to the exigencies of the , tate. The Right Hon. Baron e t says that I have °— nt ,na.le sufficient allowance for the effect, which, it appe ar ' to him, the spread of the cholera will have upon our trad e ' It may be that I have not. But it seems to me that ther e is every reason to believe that the effect of any apprehen sions respecting that pestilence will not occasion, sft er this, any great interrupti on to commerce, as t h ere are ( as ="~.r..