The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-26 00:00:00

subject ' etitiops seYerat would le food ly day 'cted in itg i ursdny into the,. it giYea. bis wa s Crown , V of teh, al Gel" of ar l l, eat and; ES. ime jug the, into the, ,oting so 7 the toci - - le d, to nised by table Of of platy !et CUPI - oneri in D ards °_, l ; it Commis during nt ; io p had I n ° Lead of rards th e :, ion , eft. levi poor' . ‘! proof"- c 1 ,,, s not *l. 11085 1 TWO . at, m ake it Jam Yo SU'''. .cter I,' le r of $ll. n to- of e ary t° waf tat'on - net Cha n f t" her I nu ll ' 0 . r the pr_ t of 10 303-, . were do r 0 f th e Of to 51 1 0 :i !:11 cr °- Ito „ ;ernb er6 anda l3e° ,be et over rer hid I hoe e Amer from t hat 'inter.from sub" e been r sail inria" order 3 f i rst gdora wake ;the oase" sates hire succeeded ; how far I - think that they have been deficie nt and then to state ',shut we is ili proceed to do _or the general emergency.— (Hear, hear.) After having __ltlylejh at statement, I shall ask the attention of toe House while I proceed to invite them to some consideration of other measures which are calculated, in the opinion of her Majesty's Go vernmen t t o i mprove the stare of Ireland, l u id to lay the foundation for her permanent welfare asd tr anquillity. I shall then take the liberty oC mentioning so me other subjects which, although tl.ey have beeu un der consideration, have not received a full discussion. the we propose, in conclusion, to ask the authority of ) House tor the introduction of two Bilis ; by one 0 1 these Bills we propose to make valid certain Acts ;The und er t h e authority of the Lord-Lieutenant of Ire land, and communicated in a letter to my Hight lion. i ,ssnd wh o sits near me (Mr. Labouchere). The second pill is for the purpose of approving the present estimates l u regard to Ireland, in pursuance of the Treasury mi nute of the Ist of December last.—(Hear, hear.) In ~Pr °e - e eding to cons id er th e present condition ot that - ,. i r u trYt I think it will be the safest course for me to geard e d IMity h• and careful information respecting the cala 'oh has overtaken Ireland, and for that purpose propose to take the results of the Commission ot In quiry the Pour-law, and to ask the House to inter ho w - great that calamity. has been—representing an almost total failure of the potato crop. Sir, in the first report of that Poor-law Inquiry Commission, composed of gent'emen of considerable experience and autho rity in Irish affairs, it is represented that the great EreoPertion of the population is continually fluctuating i ween the condition of paupers and ;nd. pendent la ourers.—(Hear, h ea r.) Scare. ly one class of the lion g population Iti n are permanently beyond the condi os pauperism. lt is stated further that there are i s e w small resident gentry; that the clergy and laity exhi bit much variance with each other, and that these 'gain are at issue with the labouring population. This state of feeling has occssioncel great difficulty in giving effect to the measures a:ready passed to improve tu e Condition of Ireland, both in the construction and Working of the parochial boards and other bodies or ganised for that purpose. In the third report the same Commission, which, with the others, go to form the general report of the Commissioners, the follo w i ng facts are given :—lt appears that in Great Britain agriculture constitutes one-fourth of the business ,or the people, whereas in Ireland it foams twostnirds. An 1831 the number of persons engaged in agriculture in Great Britain was 1,651,000; in Ireland it was 1,131,715. At the same time while Great Britain had 34,360,000 acres in cultivation, Ireland had but 14,600,000.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland had therefore, in proportion to its extens s five agricultural labourers for Great Britain's; one. At the same time, while in Ireland the wages of the labourer was from 6d. to 9d. a day, it was in Grist Britain from 2s. to 2s. 6d. (The Noble Lord gave some other items in addition to these, as further illustrative of the relative position of the two countries in regard to agriculture, but he read them in such a low and hurried tone as to be perfectly inaudible in the gallery.) A great portion of them were not sufficiently provided at any time with the commonest necessariesof life. Their habitations were wretched hovels, in which se veral families slept upon straw, covered sometimes with a blanket, sometimes without even that protection. Their food was dry bread, and some of them were obliged to stint themselves to one spare meal a-day, and instances had been knows of persons, driven by hunger, being compelled to seek sustenance from wild roots. Their employment was scarce and uncertain, some going in search of employment to Great Britain during the harvest time, some going on a similar errand in Ireland, and many having only casual resources to fly to for the lluPport of their children. Such, therefore, Sir, is the description given by the most undoubted autho rities of the state of th e labouring classes in Ireland. The state of Ireland may be imagined, when I say that those who had not sufficient food are those who are best off, and yet they had scarcel enough, and those who had been before on the brink y of famine, have perhaps been unable to resist the calamity. Such has been, u nfortunately, the case during the present year, and during the visitation of a calamity which is, per nalls, almost without a parallel, because it occurs in a ! try large population—a population of eight millions, "hich has gradually increased to that amount, while the f amine is such as has not been known in modern times. "S - S - liear, hear.) I s h ou ld sa y it is I;ke a famine of the tnirteenth century, so destructive and universal are its. effects. Such, Si r , being the general nature of this ease I will state what was the course adopted d uring the' past year, from the sitting of Parliament to t he present time. When Parliament met last year it as apprehended that the potato crop, having been mu ch injured, there was about - to be a great scarcity in Ireh iod. That apprehension was not fully justi fiedbY the e ven t.—Otter.) It was impossible, think, 4, for any man exactly to see what the e xtent of th e m i s f ortune would be ; b ut I a l so t hi n k, previous that having h a d a very plent i ful crop o f potatoes i n th e ou t s year, although there was a great quantity of belt:no:to much Injured, yet the quantity of food in Parlia ment not very d e fi c i ent. —(H ear .) H o wever, took means very early in the session for the supply of food for the destitute, by means of giving Vork on roads and public works. It was enacted by paParliament that at the request of the sessions in a barony, the should be empowered to advance money from i s % _Treasury in loans for the execution of these works. v u ote d d er thi s l aw ".?:.ceret,tion of the Government, on the 31st of August, a sum of 1,373,0001. for the relief of distress, by public works. There were presentments and to the amount of 476000 i. for these works, ti(or o ut of this sum 290,0001. was actually expended, s _er o e the end of the last session of Parliament, on the 7ril mendation of the present Government, Parliament passed a further Act, by which, on the one hand, the Pres entment of Ireland was permitted to order sessions, and, on the other hand, in order t o check an extravagant expenditure, it was de termined that these sums - should only be granted by wa y of loan, and the money was to be repaid I'a.o th .e Treasury. Sir, very soon after the session of rharnent had closed there was a great desire evinced, inmany parts of Ireland, to have presentment sessions, tho order that public works begun, but more especially se . 1 , üblic works which had alread been sanctioned Par p liament, might be proceeded with. Some objec rns were urged, that these works would be better deferred then, because there would be a great demand tor labour, inasmuch as the harvest was coming in, and therefore it would be advisable to defer the construction of the works at that time. But the operation of the law W as, by the demand of new works, made extremely diffi cult to the Board of Works, notwithstanding they were reinforced by the addition of ten gentlemen, in every w a y competent to its duties. After these works were commenced great complaints were received from the proprietors of land and country gentlemen in Ireland, that the works had been found quite useless, and that, s e p ee •ally, the roads which had been begun were not wanted. Ido not attach any great force to these objections, the object being to afford relief by providing a certain amount of labour, which would show that industry was not entirely abandoned ; and the productive nature of the work was a matter of secondary importance, as the object we had in view r is the preseivation of the people in the first place from loss of life, by providing labour, and not by an ill-judged and indiscriminate charity. The poor rates in the last five years had increased from 4,000,0001. to 5,000,000 L, being an increase of a million and upwards; 4 1; " I do not believe from the mode in which that mil "'lb had been expended that any great amount of productive labour has been engaged, but that that sum has been employed in the partial and inefficient relief of local distress.—(Hear.) ;,-2 ( iet not, therefore, attach any great value to the ob jections thus made, but, at the same time, as it was most desirable to obtain the co-operation of the landed gentry of Ireland, and as it was desirable, if possible, to have the works of a productive kind, the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, with the consent of the Cabinet, after the cane having keen fully represented to them, sane ''''ned a plan by which the sessions were allowed to Present for productive works instead of works of an u nproductive nature. This plan bad not long been adopt e d bef ore a f urt h er d es i re was ex p resse d f or a town land division, and the presentation of works for such town lands. These town lands are of various dimen sions, some of them very small, not more than 100 acres; the general average of the whole town lands do not, however, contain more than 350 acres. The ques tion for her Majesty's Government to consider was, whether it would be possible to accede to this request. It was quite obvious that if it were permitted to every per son, who was the proprietor or occupier of town lands, only to make himself responsible for his own town land, there would be no general interest in the welfare of the community, or in providing for the destitute; and more especially, the possessors of gracing land, or lands from which clearances had been effected, would have only some tw o or three destitute persons to provide for; while hundreds of others, who were possessing a demesne in town lands would contribute more than their full share. In the opinion of the Lord-Lieutenant, and also of all persons who had paid any attention to the subject, it was thought that this plan could not be beneficially adopted. But, Sir, it was said that, although that plan couldinot be adopted, still there was another scheme which might be adopted, and one which would prevent the evil ot those who were ready to employ labourers, and to improve their estates, from being obliged to maintain the tenants and labourers of those who neglected their occupations and their duties. The plan' was one for allowing the town-land division to take place, but obliging the proprietor and occupiers of town -lands to employ a certain number of destitute, so as to spend the whole of the amount of the assessment laid upon the barony. Upon this subject Ido not know that anything better can be said upon this plan than an o bservation made upon it in a public letter written by Mr. Smith O'Brien, M.P., in a letter to the proprietors of a public journal. He said that he thought this plan was much better than the one in actual operation. (The Noble Lord then read the opinion to which he re ferred. It supposed a district of a county belonging to t wo proprietors in which 100 persons resided, one of W ho employed fifty independent toylbourers, whilst the °tiler did not ; therefore, to order get rid of the main tcleinscahn4cregoef the other fifty, who would thus be thrown fpr support upon the rates, he would be compelled to his workmen ; thus one hundred persons would be thrown upon the land for supp ort, as Pauper s : so th a t if he were compelled to empity themo in that ca p ac i ty , t h ey wou ld no t be subject to his "It Control, and would not perform his labour in so efficient a manner as the independent labourer. They would be paid out of the poor rates, to which he would Only This e called upon to contribute his share. enterprisesoar indivi dual Prise, and suw I havin' g,. generally, an injurious ()Aeration.conceive that these observations 9 1 ' the Honourable Member for Limerick are pefectl) Justifiable, Our experience in England has proved that the system works as he has described. The la bi4 orera lent by toe p ar i s h to labour occasionally on a :~~► THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, JANUARY 26, farm are unlike men who labour on their ty. , ,n account; and, besides, they were found improvident men, and every fanner conversant with the system would say that he would rather give 105. a week to a 14bonier selected by himself, than ss. for one of those useless ins-n sent by the parish.—(Hear.) I thick, therefore, that the plans proposed in order to remedy the evil of having so twiny peas ns engaged in inoperative labour in Ireland wen full of danger. I admit, and will presently state, the great evils of the present system, but I think we should incur still greater danger, if, with the vi. , w of remedying those evils, we had done that hich we conceive one of the most pernicious things that could be desired, it we had confounded labour with the relief of the poor— (hear) --es by making that relief some what more efficient. we should have permanently injured this great and important class to which those inde pendent labourers belonged.—(Cheers.) Sir, the land owners and proprietors who were in favour of this alteration found great practical difficulty in putting into effeet the instructions of the Lord- Lieutenant. They found that when they came to an electoral distnet, and found two persons ready to adopt the system of reproductive works, that three or four utterly refused to become responsible, or to have any money advanced by the Government for that purpose. They found, therefore, that their operations, when so encum bered, were useless. This did not, however, though a serious difficulty, diminish their exertions ; but their operations, though very great and extensive, have not led to such a complete substitute as the system of sta bh .1) i g public works was generally supposed. But, Sir, as the plan went on the number of the dis tressed persons increased, and with the number of the distressed the difficulties of providing employment fur such a number also increased. I should say, in the present place, that as the business of the Board of Works went on the officers found that they had also great difficulty of obtaining trustworthy and efficient persons to act under them. It was found, in the first place, that the labourers were frequently unwilling to undertake the tasks allotted to them. At length this difficulty pressed itself upon those engaged to such an extent that the belief pre vailed that it was impossible for any public board to fully discharge its duties and to carry out the works. The number on the establishment has been gradually increasing. I will not read their names, but the total number of persons employed as officials under this board is, at the present moment, 11,587 ; the number of superintendents is 185 ; the amount expended for the payment of all in the debt contracted is 2,410,3661. The number of labourers has increased from 30,135 in September last to 440,687 in December. In the last week's account they were stated at more than 480,000; and, at the present time, I do not doubt but that the number amounts to half a million. Ido not doubt but that great ability must be engaged in the employment of this number of persons. —(Hear, hear.) It is calculated that five persons gain subsistence for every person that is employed. •I cannot say that that statement is correct ; but, taking it at four persons, there will be upwards of two millions of people supported by this plan. The expense at the same time must be enormous, and from an estimate I have here drawn up it appears that the expense in the first week of December was 140,0001., the second 156,0001., the third 1.58,000/., and the fourth 154,0001. So far as we are acquainted with the past three weeks, of January, the expense of the first week was 157.0001; on the 9th January it was 156,0001. ; and, on the 16th, 172,0001. ;—making an amount of 565,0001. for the month of December, and 485,0001. for the first three weeks of January, and it is calculated that the expense of the whole of this month will be between 700,0001. and 800,0001. It is impossible that this expenditure could have taken place without great concomitant evils attending it. There must be great evils under any circumstances, hut there have been peculiar evils attending it, arising out of the present state of Ireland. For instance, there has been a diffi culty in procuring sufficient labour for the unemployed. Persons who have travelled through the country con tinually reported that there were large bodies of labourers idling along the public roads, talking together, and doing no work, and these reports led the Irish Government to the determination that task work ought to be introduced. Considerable difficulties, however, were experienced in af fecting that object. Much resistance was made to the intro duction of the system, but the Lord-Lieutenant remained firm upon the point, and task work was substituted for idleness. Many evils sprung up out of this system; for those men who became accustomed to task work earned considerably more wages than any money wages that had ever been paid in the market. Many of them earned from ls. 4d. to Is. 6d. and to Is. 10d., and sometimes more. The result was, there was a strong competition to obtain employment upon the public works, and farmers found a difficulty in procuring labour to till their land at any sum. I lament to say, however, that this evil was produced by the conduct of the farmers themselves, for many of them who held twenty, thirty, fifty, and even sixty-eight acres of land, removed their sons and labourers from their usual occupation, of tillage to place them upon these pubic works, and enable themselves to receive the increaed pay which that description of employment afforded over what could be earned at husbandry. I will now read part of a letter from Colonel Jones to Mr. Trevyllen, dated the 19th of January last:—" We are pressed by our officers for instructions as to how they are to act ; those which they have received to regulate their conduct are no longer applicable in the altered state of things. They are besieged for relief, and if they refused it, they were held up as the stumbling-blocks in its way. In my opinion it would be better to give food, than to be paying away money, which would be considered as a useless expenditure. The poor people are disabled from executing task-work. Their bodily strength is gone, and they have not power to exert themselves ; the works will consequently, be left incomplete." Sir, the opinion of the Government previously to the receipt of this letter was, that the system had become so vast, and the dissatis faction and the want of food had so generally increased, that it was desirable to attempt some temporary scheme by which some of the evils which now meet us might be mitigated, and with so vast an expenditure of money more relief might be administered. Sir, it is the opinion of the advisers of her Majesty, that it will be desirable to form district relief committees, which committees shall be empowered to receive subscriptions, to levy rates, and to receive donations from the Government ; and that by this means they should be enabled to purchase food, to establish soup depots, or that they should, as far as they were able, distribute relief, to the famishing applicants, and that they should not require this indispensable test of work—(Hear, hear) — but that a labouring man should be allowed to work upon his own plot of ground or on the farmer's, and thus his labour would tend to benefit the approaching harvest, and perhaps, by such an arrangement, he might be en abled to earn some small trifle in addition to the relief afforded him" by the committee. After we had considered this scheme, I communicated it to the Lord-Lieu tenant of Ireland. We have consulted the various officers of the Ward of Works and the Commis sariat Department, they are prepared to consider it favourably, and we will endeavour, by a series of preparatory measures, and next by a Bill, to carry into effect the arrangement. We propose that these arrangements shall be carried out under the superintendence of a gentleman who has had extensive experience of public works. The person to whom I allude is Sir John Barrow—(Cheers) — at the present time the Inspector-General of forti cations in this country —(hear.) I sent for him the other day for the first time, aad having explained to him what we wanted, he said he would obtain leave of absence from his preseet duties, and instead of devoting the time to relaxation he would consider it his duty to devote it to the services of the country, and that he would be ready to go to Ireland at any time when ' called on.—(Loud cheers.) That gentleman will be in communication with the Lord-Lieutenant, and will co operate or not, as he thinks best, with the Board of Works, with the Commissioners of the Poor law. with the heads of the constabulary force, and with any other parties in Ireland that may be calculated to assist him.—(Hear, hear.) The question with regard to proposing this measure as one of immediate relief, and for the more efficiently supplying the people with food who are in want, will be treated in connexion with what has been done already. While every thing will be done to give speedy effect to the operation of this measure ; at the same time, care will be taken, and the Lord-Lieutenant will see to it, that its substitution for the system of public works already in operation, shall be easy of transition. There will be no rude dismissal of the people at once, but when all the arrangements of the present scheme are made, then no further presentments shall take place, or new public works will be commenced.—(Hear.) The Lord- Lieutenant states that in regard to the toads already commenced, if they are abandoned, they will be left in a most miserable state ; he, therefore, suggests that these shall, at least, be finished. These works will, therefore, be allowed to go to completion. With rasps ct to this advance a condition has been made, that the whole of it should not be a burden to Ireland. I think that the misfortune was so severe that, passing by the remote causes of it, we ought not to throw the full burden of it on the possessors of property in Ireland. It would be right that the whole of the burden should not remain on Irish property. I should, therefore, pro pose, on some tuture day, that an arrangement should be made by Parliament, by which, in each succeeding year when the instalment became due, one half of that instalment should be paid and the other half should be remitted, taking care that the whole &ht should be kept up until the half is paid; but when the half was paid the remainder should be remitted, and this provid ing that one half of the whole charge shall be refunded. eq question—withtuheery havea nl regard bteheen t o Ci t s, l is i n e useod s l i u d m ab s hitherto issued, I should state, with regard to the financial part of the thatEx cConsolidated d Fund, n the t it neither has been, nor is it now in contemplation to issue Exchequer-bills in order to meet this demand,— (Hear, hear.) But, however, it must be considered when we are making these propositions to Parliament, that it is placing a very considerable b ur d en upon t h e , finances of the country—(Hear, hear)—and that in placing that burden on th e fi nances of this country I do feel myself disabled from upon mak to making some propositions make itnh e t the ee r a y p n rh d ee sue a vnie 1 ) i t. which I should inis b N e nen c x called en: l ,e d. e b s u ti t tu w tie it n h obfurdtheenm entailing g year, it would be hardly f a i r f ur the people of this country, to propose th em ; bee , whether it is stated that the burden is a" borne u by the Consolidated Fund, or whether th e burden be borne by the imperial Treasury and the general finances, it must always be recollected that these sums are not to be granted by Parliament or the Government without the most serious consideration, for they are all sums derived from the pay meat of the people of this country, and who pay it on their soap, thi it sugar, and their tea and coffee. It is from that source is derived the surplus by w hi c h we are enabled to come to the assistance of Ire- ---- - land. The people are willing, as I think, to do all that is liberal in this respect. We must always consider what is meet and just to the people of this country. We must consider the difficulty and privation, and by what hard labour they earned these sums.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") With respect to another part of this subject, via., the advances made under the authority of the Lord-Lieutenant's order, I have here a letter from my Right 11. n. Friend, stating that these advances were male to persons who really wt bed to assist in carrying this measure into effect, who undertook to carry out works and the improvement of estates, and who are liable for it in the terms in which it is proposed to be made unc:er the Treasury minute of 'the Ist of December, and which would be embodied in the Act of Par liament. These terms are also to be applied to persons who accepted advances under this Act. These advances I propose shall be repaid, not, as under the former Act, in a period of ten, but in twenty-two years, because I consider that this is a beneficial em ployment of that money ; and I intend, therefore, that the Government should deal with it as with the moneys advanced to the persons I have just referred to.—(Hear.) Sir, I have now stated what I think we can do for the present relief of the distress in Ireland. There is, how ever, another question, to which I must confess some what of hesitation in making the proposition I intend to do to the Hous. , , but yet, on the whole, we think we are right in rec , anmending to Parliament that we should be enabled to grant a sum of money, not exceedin4 50,0001., to be repaid before the end of the present year, that is by the 31st of December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to purchase seed for potatoes.—(Hear, hear.) I do not mean that the Government should make those advances to the small tenant-farmers themselves, because I think the principle is exceedingly dangerous that the Government, should an occasion come like the present, assume the character of a lender, but I also think that if these advances were made to the proprietors the measure would nut be fraught with harm, while it would be found beneficial to the country.—(Cheers.) Sir, in stating these measures to the House, I wish, at the same time, to declare that we cannot expect, and we do not ex pect, to be able, by any measures of Government, or by any measures which Parliament may sanction, to ward off, or prevent, the effect of this awful visitation under which we labour.—(Hear, hear.) It is not in the power of man to do away with the effect of such a calamity. Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would impose on us so impossible a task as to make so presump tuous an attempt, were it not that I have read in one of the newspapers an address signed by the Marquis of Sligo and Mr- George Moore, both most respectable individuals, both persons well worthy of deference on the part of their poorer country men. It is stated in the newspapers that they have travelled through twenty-seven counties in ordes to make their propositions popular. at Castlebar, at eleven o'clock on Monday next, '• We, therefore, earnestly entreat you," they say, " to tn,dpauetonaricdne gca d emand,b te l h y a ep , fs a u n mtp d hipnel l yne i k sova e m of food dircohetohnde surrounds rtoo tt worthy hoeppe ote petition the osl,ne a rights Parli ament thisthe you c mq coo ue un iee ns tn it tt l ar 'yel y t o sl o take such steps as may ensure an i mme di a t e , n t r e y te s a h t o i education tellm e n famine which is impending over the country ." I o oughttime of famine Sir, that lam astonished—(Loud cheers)—that in wn, lov their m e men c ooufthem, in the language of this address, that they were to demand from Parliament " steps which may insure an immediate, constant, and cheap supply of food."— , (Cheers.) Why, Sir, that is a task which it is impos possible for us to perform.—(Loud cheers.) They should tell their countrymen, " The visitation under which we are suffering is a task made impossible for man to remove—that is a task beyond all human power to perform."—(Cheers)., All we can do is in some mode or other to alleviate the miseries of the people—(Cheers)—somewhat to lighten the dreadful calamity—in some measure to save a part of the people of this country.—(Cheers.) But they must not imagine that we can turn scarcity and even famine into plenty.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, what sur prises me more even than this announcement is, that it so happens that at Castlebar, where the people of the surrounding country are requested to meet, it does happen that there is an union workhouse ; that union workhouse should contain 600 inmates, but it at present contains not more than 130, the doors being closed against the admission of other persons, the guardians saying that it is impossible for them to levy rates in order to enable other persons in want of food to come to that union. —(Cheers and counter-cheers.) Among those who have not paid those rates—who have not furnished the means by which famine might be, to a certain degree, averted—are some whom we cannot but suppose must be fully able to pay those rates due from them, and I cannot but see in this proposal a most unhappy tendency—an un happy tendency which I have more than once remarked—to recommend to others to du fur them some vague and impossible thing, and call upon the Govern ment or the Parliament to do something, the practi cability of which has not been considered, or to confer some benefit which may be either visionary or impos sible, while the plain practical duty—(Loud cheers)—of paying the rates for the sustenance of the starving men, women, and children in the immediate neigh bourhood is left neglected . and unheeded.—(Cheers.) Sir, I am obliged to say, therefore, that while we at tempt all that we think practicable, we must, in the first place, refuse to make promises the performance of which we think out of our power; and, in the next place, we must call upon, and expect those who have local duties to perform in Ireland, to perform those duties, and to assist the Government and the Parliament in the arduous performance of theirs.—(Cheers.) sir, when I say that we expect this, I am quite sure that by many those duties will be performed, because I know there are many, very many, ,instances of resident pro prietors in Ireland who have been most ready with their money, with their time, and with their attendance, in endeavouring to provide for their destitute tenants. — (Cries of "Hear, hear.") Sir, I proceed then to another part of this subject, and I trust the House will give me their attention while I ask them to follow the proposal of other measures which we think may be beneficial not only now, but permanently beneficial to Ireland. We say, in the first place, that we think although we may have been unhappily directed from the observance of general principles witn regard to these measures, yet I do think that we should observe thesegeneralprinciples as far as possible, and that they prescribe thus much with regard to the interference of the Government—we think that that interference may be given in three ways, and that those three way s ought, as far as possible, to be kept separate and distinct, namely—that Government, with the support and sanction of Parliament, may grant assistance to individuals— to proprietors—±or the purpose of improvin g th e i r private property, to assist in public works, by making loans, or partly by grants for public works which are of evident public utility ; and, thirdly, to enact that relief should be given by law to the destitute.—(Cheers.) I think these three modes ought to be kept as far distinct as possibe—that is t say, that when you advance money to a private individual, for the purpose of improving his property, that you should take security so far as this, that it is for that purpose, and not to be spent in extravagance, or for any other purpose-Cheers)—but laid out simply for the purpose fur which it is granted, but that beyond that you should interfere as little as possible with the use of that money.—(Hear, hear.) That, for instance, you should interefere as little as possible in compelling him to employ a certain class of labourers, and to conduct the works in a certain manner, which Government may lay down as to the best manner in which they c ,uld be performed, or in any other way, which would prevent him from having the free use of the loan advanced by the Government.—(Hear.) Now, Sir, such is the principle of the measure of which lam about to speak. It is a measure founded on the various Acts which have preceded it, the chief of which is the Drainage Act of last session, and which came into operation on the Ist of December. According to this Act, and the minute of it which appears on the book, it is proposed that certain assistance shall be given for the improvement of estates and for the reclaimation of waste lands, where such improvement of the value shall prove no detriment to the legal heirs, and that the advances for such improve ment shall be provided out of the public funds. The usual mode has been to grant these advances from the Treasury, on an interest of five per sent. In the Drainage Act of last year, three-and-a-half per cent. was charged, making, with the other expenses, 6i per sumtermaofthebeDrainagraonpdo s toean ex t en d advancethe e term on the fo r repaid. 43 Act, l 13 cent., to be retained f o r t wen ty- two years , w h en t h e given the improvement I have mentioned. In doing this, 1 must say that the Noble Lord opposite is in no way responsible for the deficiency which has been experienced in consequence of the working of the Drainage Act, but I conceive that the improvement of the estates, if the term be extended, as well as the construction of roads, will amply repay the money that has been advanced during that term. lam convinced that the plan which I have adopted is better than that which has been pro posed by the Lord-Lieutenant for the relief of the poor in Ireland. These are the reasons which have prompted me to adopt this measure; and I believe that it will not only be found to provide profitable employ ment for the poor, bat will also prove of great advan tage to property. We propose also to make a grant for general works, such works as shall not only be important in themselves, but which will prove of permanent ad vantage to the country. We propose this in addition to the money to be granted to the proprietors of estates, and to give to the Board of Works the general superintendence of the loans We propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend these laws. We propose, likewise, on the same principle to which I have just adverted, namely, the principle of promoting great public works for the benefit of the State, we propose to undertake the reclamation of portions of th e waste lands of Irelan d . It has long been stated in various reports of Commissions, in reports of Com mittees of this House, in the works of eminent writers, that in many cases the reclamation o£ the waste lands of Ireland — wo uld produce large profits if v cultivated Mr. Robert Dale, they were properly cu ti a iu his most interesting work upon the Indus he thinks the rial resources of Ire land, says, estimate of 4.600, 000 acre s of wasted y be by no re claimed, farmed, and culti vated with land ma rofit, an _ o p w, we propose to means an exaggerated estimate. this ose, and we devote a million of money to pur p propose, should the proprieto r of the w aste land be unwilling to sell or reclaim means his land by of the loans I have mentioned, or out of his own resou rces, that there should b e a compulsory power to t ake and improve the waste lands which are below a certain value. We propose th a t th a t va lue should be put down at 2s. 6d._ Mr. GOULBU RN—ls that the annual valu e? Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Yes, the annual thevalue. We propos e u p on th i s data to improve and reclaim waste lands so far as general operations are concerned; that is, roads are to be made and general draining is to be effected. The necessary build ings are to be erected, but we do not propose to take upon ourselves the cultivation of the land. It having been so reclaimed, we propose that it should be divided into lots, not below nor above a certain quantity. Ido not think it necessary to mention figures, but I would say not less than 25, nor more than 50 acres, and when reclaimed, the land shall be let or sold in these quantities ; if let, the tenant at the expiration of his lease to have the option of purchasing his allotment. I confess that I do expect that great advantage will arise from this plan. I do expect that a great many persona who have been driven to despair and crime from the great demand for land, will be enabled by such holdings to earn a competent living. I think, also, that you will raise a small class of proprietors who may be very in dustrious and very independent, which will form a very valuable class. Let me say, in the meantime, that, as far as I can f orm a judgment, I do dot think the small holdings are the great evil of Ireland. I do believe that the method on which land has been held is the chief source of iti want of cultivation ; but I do not think that the small holdings of the country have been injurious : and I have arrived at that conclu sion from the fact, that the most prosperous and best cultivated county in Ireland is Armagh—a county in which the greatest division of land exists. If you com pare the whole province of Ulster with that of Munster, you will find that there are many more divisions in the province of Ulster in proportion to that of Munster. I believe, therefore, in adopting this plan, and by giving a compulsory power, a great advantage may be secured. — (Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I come to the third class of propositions. I have stated, and I wish to repeat it, that ttie measures which I am now stating are those which we intend immediately to introduce, and that I am not referring to those which we have in contemplation, and which we think it will be our duty afterwards to propose. But I say these measures, which we now submit, are cal culated to promote the improvement of Ireland, and will enable proprietors to obtain sufficient funds to make great improvements upon their estates, and also to pro vide the means whereby works of a more public nature may be carried out.—(Hear, hear.) The third class of measures to which I have alluded are those intended simply to afford relief to the destitute. It will be remembered that when the Poor-law Commis sion of Inquiry made its report, it advised that only a certain class should be relieved, and in that class it ex cluded those who were infirm and permanently disabled. We thought, upon the whole, that it was much safer, in the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland, and not to confine the relief to any particular class of men. Sir, it is not only the experience of all those acquainted with the present state of things, but it is our own opi nion, founded on a general view of the state of Ireland, that the poor-law should be more extensive than it is. I theref,r,• propose to bring in a Bill for the purpose of more efficiently meeting the distress in Ireland, which shall confer on the poor-law guardians powers to afford relief either in or out of the workhouse to all parties disabled by bodily ailment.—(Hear, hear.) This is what we propose in, ,the Bill to do; and to give due effect to the measure, in the first place, the guardians shall have the power, as a general rule, to use the workhouse as a test of destitution ; and, in the second place, to afford relief to the starving people at their own houses, in order to satisfy the general feeling of the country on this matter. —(Cheers.) Sir, I also propose, that in c ases w h en th e wor kh ouse is full, that the Poor law Commissioners shall have power to direct the guardians to give relief out of the workhouse to the able-bodied poor. My opinion is that this power should be cautiously used, and that the workhouse, as a general principle, should be employed as a test of able bodied destitution only ; still I think the House will agree with me, that the Poor-law Commissioners should have the power to make alterations in the operation of this test.—(Cheers.) I propose, therefore, that in cases of urgent necessity—that is, in such cases where the able-bodied make application for relief—that these shall be relieved out of the workhouse, but in food only.—(Hear, hear.) We further propose that relieving officers shall be appointed, whose duty it shall be to take cognizance of all cases of distress, and who, in urgent cases, when there is danger of the people starving, shall have the power to give relief out of the workhouse till the next meeting of the board of guardians such meeting to decide on what arrangemeut shall be made for the p au p ers relieved in this manner in fut ure. — ( Hear, hear.) Such therefore, is the nature of the measures which I propose immediately to introduce. There are, as I have stated, other measures which have been and are under the consideration of Government. With respect to the first class to which I have alluded—that class of measures which enable proprietors to make better use of their own property, to increase their capital and improve their estates—we have under con • sideration measures which shall facilitate the sale of private property.—(Hear, hear.) There are two modes by which it is to be done—one mode is, I think, taken from the general principle of the Copyhold Act. Every one knows that there are private Bills passing every year by which certain individuals are allowed to sell a por tion of their estates, in order to pay off encumbrances One way of carrying into effect the principle I have mentioned would be to propose that there should be general Bills, giving the Commissioners power to exa mine into each case, and then having the Bills passed in another period of the session, by which, instead of one private Bill, many private Bills would be sanctioued by Parliament. Another mode which we have under consideration, by which the same object would be gained, could be done by application to the Court of Chancery. I cannot say decidedly at this moment which mode we shall eventually adopt, but we have the subject under our earnest consideration. I shall like wise prepare Bills by which those tenures in Ire land, which are called long leasehold tenures, renewable for ever, may be converted into freehold tenures. I must say, generally speaking, with regard to the present unfortunate state of Ireland, the most in jurious system is the mode in which property is held in ears to be that country, The present mode app of having a • small rent charge upon a large various tenures, and under various c(eiditions in that him, so that him, and that anent has a middleman under roperty it is impossible to say on whom the ofdutyorthp estate. The landlord has a property agent under y of the rested.—(Cheers.) It is a question w is possible tenures may be simplified, and how it tenant and to connect the proprietor with the are connected labourer in the manner in which they of that con attention of Parliament to consider. h ow these in Ireland and Scotland. It is to the want many causes destitution nexicn that is to be attributed, in Ireland, the frightful instances of which so often reach the ears of the public ; and when inquiry is made as to who are the . pers a on d s who ought to be responsible for that destitution, n icTnochlotienmcionsequence Iv it is who are called upon to subscribe for relief, impos sible to fix on them or find out who those persons :we st . in the most It is not so in England and Scotland, where, themselves distressed districts, the proprietors charge among the ke and their estates with a considerable debt; they themselves responsible for advances of money, by w the they may relieve their tenants and dependants from. calamity under which they are at present labouring.-- (Hear, (Hear, hear). Sir, under the second head of Public Works Works there comes the subject of make I have not at present any distinct statement to make in upon that subject, but I may inform the House for the the course of last autumn three establishments mlitich but founded ; there was a vast amount of fish caught, no been had were it t manufacture of salt, for the purposes of curin g , a much greafer amount might have by the fishermen that the fisheries were almost neglected We trust, for thecultivation of their portions of land, this subject in however, to bring forward a measure on another subject the course of the session. Sir, there is any state on which I am likewise not prepared to makethere are large were anent to the House. but an which I know .s the very im expectations entertained in Ireland. I 1 e migration, although Parliament may assist tow ere entertained the extravagant expectations tha; realised. It is on this head can never portant subject of emigration. I emigration, although b© truly stated, that stated by Sir Robert Kane, and most truly they never where pauper families have been removed, sensible to have any • • can be removed in such numbers as But there is this a I think that, effect on the remaining population extraordinary effort to be considered, that if by so migration, if you can you can increase the ordinary the question is not seas, you must consider tha t have, or have not, simply whether these peopleryou most consider, a l so, the means of profitable labour, you to which they emigrate whether there is in thecou are. expect to convey If by a large addition such means, and what they d you could convey hundreds of ausmoilylionof persons across the to the public fun overoffi c t e h , co mplain that we Cain upon ...- (Hear, hear.) If States would most ;when this was a duty properly them our paupers, b es e , nt yo o u n . d ° s u r oo se ff iv t es e o f benefiting the colonies, you e alt c h o o unt h ry l . l thousands of paupers into your introduce hundre.il find that the labour market is a . In considering this thousands of perse.s to the United States, the United o st g ae o le f s ur i t n her than I although galnadttHeda,lifaanxdwith ce of perpetuate a ra ould be the crowding of Nova Scotia ay t , o ari s s o i m ng e bee!! subjectj s the beg g C a o r l s o n i al when I held the seal! tosedoth could confess I was then clop h go, in consequence_ the instead of him my y er w e finances, but I did think that from the state of which emigration could be pro the best mode by charge of the -, ants muted was by talc lace of abode, not at e t m he l-r - ' not at his present p nor at the portport of his embarkation alone, . from where he disem barked, but con s mi,,rants mightaccordingly find a mar ket for their labour;nr_.e I propsed a certain grant for the_l 3 P. 3 of emigration, which has ' ued from time to time, since been continued sometimes to a t es to a smaller larger and s ane.imamount. By means of families have been this grant many poor conveyed from and fr Quebec to Montreal, . . ( m Montreal to Kings ton and the interior na . rts of Western Canada. and been placed in sibu'Poes where they could earn wages and be comfortably .settled. The emigration • in this way has been in the past, going or, years very large, there went to our In the year 1845, 1 orth American n' red States colon:es:11.000 persons, to t htatessB,ooo,making l eU . a total of neatly 90,000. !I the first three quarters of the year 1846, which contains the great bulk of the emigration of the year, there went to our North American colonies 42,404 emigants, to the United States 67,792, making a total of 110,196, The report from the Agent of Emigration in Canada s t ates that " during the past year a much larger number of Irish emi grants - grunts had arrived in a state of destitution as to bed and clothing, exceeding anything ' he had ever before witnessed." The that reporton to say, " that among the earlier emigrants goes there was no distress except that resulting from their own mis conduct, and that employment could be • easily obtained at remunerative wages, and that the carrying the public works would give additional out of and Mont real that the formation of the employment, and Quebec Rail ways would give employment to a much larger number of persons. I should certainly be afraid to give anything like a stimulus to emigration, to such an extent as to send a large number of paupers where they could not obtain the means of support, and involving a large outlay and waste of public money. Under these circumstances it could not be expected that the State would undertake the whole expenses of an extensive system of emigration. Sir, there aro some difficulties with regard to a general system of emi gration which cannot easily be encountered, and the plans on which it is proposed to be carried are ob jectionable, although there are some kinds of emigration which are not objectionable, and to which I hope facili ties will be given. But I do not propose on the part of the State that any Government plan of emi gration should be undertaken, and whether I may or may not bring forward any measure to facilitate emigration on the part of the Government. I wish to give no hope of an extensive system of emigration. —(llcer, hear.) Sir, I know not if the calculations of Sir R. Kane may be taken altokether as a sober estimate, but he main tains that there are such resources in Ireland—such agri cultural resources—( Hear)—independently of the mineral resources of the country, and the means of employ ment by water power for manufacture—that no less than 17,000,000 of people could be maintained out of them. I do not enter into this calculation ; but this I say that I do not think, if there were a good system of agriculture introduced—if there were a good security for investment of money in land—(Hear, het, r)—if the proprietors themselves undertook the task of im proving the country, if the other classes co-operated with them—l do not think the present pepulation of Ireland is excessive. --(Hear, hear.) And now, before I conclude, if the House will so far bear with me, I will venture to allude to those countries which apparently had been in as bad a state, so far as their general condition was concerned, as Ireland, and which we now see flourishing, and in the possession of peace. I think there may be some good in that retrospec tion, because I know that in the many evils that have af flicted Ireland—especially in viewing the present cala mity—there are some who are disposed to despair. I know, unconnected with those laws, which I hope have ceased to exist unconnected with unhappy circumstances to which I do not like to allude, but which the Poor•law Commis sioners have generally inquired into—unconnected with these circumstances, I see no reason why Ireland may not become a state enjoying the greatest prosperity. I will give you a description of a country where property is secure, and where life is safe, where it is stated that the whole of the inhabitants are in a state of poverty and destitution and as being turned out of their habitations without food or clothing, or the least means of defend ing themselves from the inclemency of the weather— where men and women, husbands, wires, and their chil dren were left to wander about the country in a state of destitution and famine, where the young men were alike without employment or the desire for it, and the old had no place to rest themselves—where the only resort that they had was in begging or stealing. That was an impartial description of a country where pro perty is secure, and all the enjoyments of life have been read of. This shows that the evils that now afflict Ireland do not depend upon the country itself, but seises out of the state of society there, where the wretched families are.now described as being driven from their homes and have no resource but in begging or stealing. This is a description of wealthy, secure, happy England, by Sir Thomas More, in his time.—(Hear, hear.) In this description it is stated that the people roved about in bands of from 200 to 300 at a time, who lived entirely by stealing or begging, taking cattle from the fields, and committing such excesses, that not anything or any place was safe. In such numbers, indeed, did the people roam, that it is said that as many as seventy thousand thieves, rogues, and vagabonds were hanged in ons day. I will now turn to the state of society in another country, where an equal degree of prosperity is known to pre vail. It is a description of the country at the end of , the 17th century, and in this description it is stated that so great was the number of families that had been driven from their own homes, that as many as 200,000 to 300,000 individuals were known to be prowling about the country, living by steal ing and begging from door to door. It wate r indeed, believed that 100,000 persons who were con tinually on the prowl about the country, and though the poor people who lived upon farms would give relief to as many as forty persons in one day, yet they could not avoid being insulted, or protect themselves from the commission of the most grievous depredations. Such is the description of industrious, sober Scotland at the end of the 17th century.—(Hear, hear.) It shows that a country which has been without order where robbers were, where industry was neglected. may afterwards become orderly and civilised, and I think we should be unworthy of our position as Members of Parliament, if we were to give way to despair. in the present case.—(Cheers.) Sir, I know, however, that what I have touched upou relating to the social state of Ireland—touching as I have done upon many impor tant measures—is but a part of the case.—(Hear, hear.) I am not one of those who think, that apart from politi cal questions—from political rights—from other ques tions connected with political institutions—a merely beneficent Government can restore a country to prosperity and happiness.—(Cheers.) It is my opi nion that other means will be required, and when the pr3per time comes for preparing such measures I shall be ready to undertake anything for the benefit of Ire. land ; but, Sir, I feel that, with respect to these and all other measures, that there are things which the Crown cannot grant, which Parliament Jannot grant, such as a spirit of self-reliance, a spit it of perseverance.—(Cheers.) I must say plainly that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not that I think I see symptoms amongst the people of Ire land both of a greater reliance upon their own energies, their own exertions, and a greater willingness to co operate with us.—(Cheers.) I believe that they will en courage this spiritamongst themselves—l believe that they will see what has been done in this country and in her neighbour Scotland, by industry, by perseverance, by never despairing of success—that they will, go on in this spirit, not looking always to Government for pro posals, and to Parliament for enactments—(Cheers) — but see what is the task immediately before them, and set themselves dowri b heartily and strenuously to perform that task, and prove that there are means and resources in Ireland which may bring these matters to a happy issue. —(Loud cheers.) There is no doubt of the fertility of the land. Its fertility has been the theme and admiration of the writers and travellers of all nations. There is no doubt either of the strength and industry of the inhabitants. The same man who is loitering by the mountain side in Tipperary or in Derry—whose potato crop has just furnis h e d him with occupation fo r a few days— whose wages and who se p i g have j us t enabled him to pay his rent , a nd eke out a misera ble subsist ence, has perhaps a brother in Liverpo o l, wog ee equal to any of theta.—(Clear, h ear. ) oorrninLgondotnalwhnoighbty, the sweat p o e f tin h g i b with TOW, O h T a t v h e e s h tr e e e n n gth di o ff r er t e h h e ce in s_ du b s u tr t y of the inha bitants ftGillesinsgostwnrlongest and stoutest labourers, and i s oninngot think, therefore, that either the f ru itf u l ness earning us if we lay the f oun d at i on for the botirtfiutatenbh_etestlhaafrenoeo be blamed. There h ave b een f au l ts, i t i s true—there w d il e l si fi re n d d t t o h that r h e ow ha t r h e cure of these differences —(Hear, hear.) Happy will i p t r b ee e, ep i t f ,t,hhelellpri)shentrhseelmf,snenlvdesHteaakveenfowr.tllheir maxim, uses in aulversity.—(The Noble Lord ;hen help resumed r% )u his seat amid protracted cheering.) the s n ir l m tru mr st . t u h li at ii t i h t e o y N know the been were to be supported, and in what way the taxes be levied ? were to Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I made a mistake when I said that rates were to be levied by the relief com mittees—the rates are to be levied by the board of guardians, and they will have the power to levy any additional rates they may require. The committees will be empowered to receive them, and to this will be added private subscriptions and donatious from the Go vernment. Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to have from the Noble Lord some explanation of his statement about Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore refusing to pay the rates at Cabtlebar. slit cooonresiderable Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member had mis stated apprehended thata m h e is eti m ng ean h i a n d g He (Lord John Russell, that Lord Sligo and Mr. Moore a h e d se conded the resolutions to which he at Castlebar, and had hpars palluded a 71 and d that in the Union of Castlebar therllv i e e re e arrears of rtehnattshdeudei,das noth emehaaidt:ll d 44, 3 :: tsh.eoM,BalrlqiuEisNo:wShloigroosoer amidst i r d . stated to rtbfle reflect c n t bu o e he th e Noble n L s aoar' saying i h n s o that thsse who were in arrears.—(Hear, hear.) were l among g the other gentleman referred to.—(Hear.) con fusion, said his object was to ask the Noble Lord the course the Government intended to adopt in reference,first, to making advances on railway ? and, second, whether her Majesty's Government, "rks in their con sideration of the present condition of the people of Ireland, had decided on bringing ' Bill, in order in a Tenants' Compensation to provide for the compensation of tenants in cases of removal? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that respect ing making advances for railways, that sub ject had been under consideration, and it was thought unwise to do so generally on works of_ that description. It was a subject into which the Government was not prepared to go at present. Re garding tenants' compensation, a Bill bad been pre pared, but it was not intended to be introduced into that House at present, and would, in all probability, originate in the other House.—(Hear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS was desirous of knowing if any arrangements had been made for the poor emigrants who might arrive in the colonies —whether it was their intention to appropriate any capital in the colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and the Canadas, in order to encourage emigration to that quarter? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the subject had come under the consideration of his Noble Friend the Secre tary for the Colonies, and the Government was prepared, if proprietors or companies in Canada were willing to construct villages or build dwellings while railways were in the couise of construction, to make advances of money to assist them.—(llear, hear.) Lord CLEMENTS said his question had reference to advances for the cultivation of the land in the colonies, and not for the construction of railroads. Mr. F. FRENCH said that just before the meeting of the House an Hon; Friend dr his connected with the he late Government had assured him, from i n formation had received, the measures to be brought forward by her Majesty's Gove rnment were likely to prove most distasteful to the Irish Members, and most particularly so to himself. It did not appear to him •desirable to go into details as to any part of the measure proposed by the Noble Lord, but he could say that his first proposal was in accordance with the Treasury minute of the Ist of December, with re f e rence to the employment of the people. The objec. tionable portion of it appeared to him to be the inter ference of the Board of Works, in the employment of the people. With regard to the proposition of out-door relief, under the poor-law, such a course appeared to him to be most desirable, and altogether the provisions of the Noble Lord appeared to him to claim the utmost admir ation. He admired the distinction drawn by the Noble Lord between the temporary measures for the relief of Ireland, and those likely to become permanent ones—those for the emergency of starvation, and those for the improvement of the country. Ireland had lately become involved in many serious diffi culties, and those difficulties appeared to him to be increased by the measures adopted by th e Ri g h t Hon. Member for Tamworth, in tampering with th e p rov i s i on trade, which was at all times a dangerous speculation. He had created a feeling in the minds of the people that it was the duty of the Government to feed them ' and that the Government had the p ower to do it, and that feeling had given rise to considerable discontent and dissatisfaction in the distressed districts that the Government did not perform impossibilities. That feeling had led to the occurrence which had taken place in the county of Galway, in which county, on the coroner's jury sitting to inquire into the circumstances attending the death of a woman who died of want, a verdict of wilful , murder was returned against Lord John Russel. The second error which the Right Hon. Baronet's Go vernment committed was, the administering indiscrimi nate out-door relief—seconding the intervention of the I Board of Works, the principle of State interference in matters purely private. That the Noble Lord at the head of the Government clearly saw the clangers and difficulties I of the position which the Right Hon. Baronet took, was clearly manifested from his first Treasury miante, from his speeches in that House, from his letter to the Duke of Leinster, and many other evidences ; but in the confusion incidental to the formation of a new Government, the legacy left by the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, the Poor Employment Bill, with all its attendant evils, evils which had created the greatest discontent between landlord and tenant, from one end of Ireland to the other, became law. The evil was in the very principle of the Act, for he could bear his warmest testimony to the great abilities of Mr. Jones and Captain Larkinn. The first evil was in the diversion of the entire population from the cultivation of the soil. According to the statement of the Noble Lord, not less than 480,000 persons were now employed. The commerce of the county was therefore greatly interfered with. In the county which he had the honour to represent, a road from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of 15 miles, which usually took the mail an hour to traverse, now took four and a half hours, and an application was made to Government to grant as additional hour. In fact, the Board of Works were designated throughout the whole of Ireland as the wholesale destroyers of her Majesty's highways. That expenditure of 180,0001. a week was going on in the country, when every eminent agriculturalist who had studied the subject agreed in the opinion that by a proper system of drainage the produce of the soil might be in creased from 25 to 100 fold. Another effect of this public employment was its demoralising in fluence upon the minds of the people, taking from them all self-reliance, and encouraging them to look to a system of out-door relief, and fostering habits of laziness and indolence at a period when every exertion should be used to rouse their in dustrial energies. He was glad to hear that the opinion, of the Right Honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth had been somewhat modified since the last session, and he recommended that the army of 10,000 overseers should be disbanded, and labour again caused to flow into its proper channel. That was the expression of the general feeling of the people of Ireland, and their voice had been heard by the Government of the country. When the Lord Lieutenant first issued that letter, known throughout the country as "Labouchere's letter," which the Honourable Member for Limerick had threatened to impeach, its object was to substitute tute productive for unproductive works, and proposing a division of the country into electoral districts, allowing presentments to be made for private interests under the Drainage Act. That letter was not acted upon, because it was provided that the works should be carried on under the Board of Work, thereby entailing an additional cost of cent. per cent. He anticipated that the measure proposed this evening by the Noble Lord would confer material advantages on Ireland. He agreed fully with that part of the Noble Lord's address in which he said there was no cause to de spair of the future state of that country, however lament• able her present position might be—as he had no doubt that after much acute suffering a better state of things would ensue, and the prosperity of the country be re-established. The decrees, as well as the calamities, of nature generally caused a reaction, and often led to the best re sults in the human frame as well as in the body politic : thus Ireland, the difficulty and problem of statesmen, through the fearful ca lamity with which it had pleased Providence to afflict her, had done that for that country which neither King's nor statesmen had been able to effect, as it had led to the adoption of measures which would give Ireland a fair field, and which would go far to promote her regeneration. In after years they would have to look back upon these measures, either ns having promoted the prosperity, or led to the utter ruin of Ireland. Mr. BULLER thought that indeed the importance o this subject could not be exaggerated, and the feelings o the Irish Members cou'd not but have been gratified by the arrangement which the Noble Lord had proposed. lie rejoiced that the principle of rendering the Irish land lords responsible for the support of their poor had for the first time been adopted i❑ that House that night ; and he thought that the Members for England and Scotland would be satisfied with the arrange ment, es it extended the poor-laws from these countries to Ireland. Yet it should be remembered that the rate levied under the poor.law in this country only amounted to one-sixth, or 2s. in the pound, whilst in Ireland it amounted to one-fourth. The Irish landlord was generally supposed to be an embarrassed person. It was, therefore, stated that the he ought to be relieved from all contingent expenses, but when a tradesman or a merchant was unable to meet the demands made upon him, the country interfered and di vested him of that property. The lirainage Act, passed in the time of the Hon. Member for Tamworth, had only just come into useful effect, for the Act of last session had not yet come into useful operation. The proposal to advance money at 31 per cent. for twenty-two years would take away all the just grounds urged by the proprietors of land against the improvement of their property. With the aid of these measures, he confidently antici pated, seeing Ireland restored to peace and happiness. Mr. LEFROY wished to ask the Noble Lord two questions. Did Government intend to take steps to insure a supply of food in Ireland ? Unless they did do so the proprietors of the land would experience considerable difficulty in alleviating the sufferings of the people. The next question he wished to ask was, in what way will the proptietors of land have the benefit of the borrowed money ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied, that Government did propose to interfere with the trade and importation of corn into Ireland. With regard to the second question, he would rather defer answering it for the present. Lord LINCOLN said there were two questions which he was desirous to put to the Noble Lord. The first was with re gard to the drainage ; he wished to know whether the Noble Lord proposed to extend the operation of the Million Act of last year? The Noble Lord would recollect that two millions had been voted for the drainage of England and Scotland, and one million to Ireland. Now, did he propose to limit the amount to that sum, or was he prepared to advance sums from time to time, according as there might be a demand for them ? The second question had no immediate reference to the speech of the Noble Lord, but it was exceedingly important that public attention should be directed to it, and was becoming daily more so. He alluded to the anticipated increase of fever in several parts of Ireland. The late Government were so strongly impressed with the necessity of taking some measures to prevent such a calamity, that they passed a short Act called the Fever Bill, that enactment would expire on the Ist of Sep tember next. Under it, power was given to constitute a cen tral board. Sir Philip Crampton and Dr. Corrigan were named as presidents. He believed that the present Govern ment, conceiving that the board was no longer necessary, abo lished it. He wished also to know when the Noble Lord would proceed with the Bill, with a view to the renewal of the dis cussion, and when he would be prepared to lay on the table those papers to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded. He apprehended that the Government were in pos session of a great mass of other information, which it would be most desirable should be placed in the possession of the House. Lord J. RUSSELL said that the Government intended to have a separate Act for the drainage of Ireland. They wished somewhat to enlarge the clauses, and although the sum would be limited to one milli on , the overnment would not hesitate to advance such sums as might seem requisite. With regard to the second question, the Noble Lord was aware that there were many practical difficulties which he was better able to ex plain than he (Lord John Russell) was. With regard to the third question, I do not know that I can precisely fix a day. Sir G. GREY—Say Wednesday next. Lord J. RUSSELL—WeII, then the papers will be laid upon the table of the House on Wednesday next, and I propose to renew the discussion on Monday next. Mr. LABOUCHERE explained that the operation of - the Fever Act had been very unsatisfactory, and many abuses had crept in which had materially operated against its efficiency. The Noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln) was aware, that be sides the Fever Act there were other Acts that could be brought into operation for the prevention of Fever. There was a provison under the Poor-law Act, by which the poor-law authorities, with the consent of the commissioners could attach fever hospitals to the workhouses. In many instances this had already been done. There were likewise one or two other Acts of Parliament. There was one of the Acts of George ih 111., cap. 55 and 56, empowering local boards to establish fever fever hospitals, the expense to be levied for the . tin?e, oo _ county as the case might be. The Government b ad don s p 7" ll in their power to meet the fever which was alleg d t e vail, but such had been the abuses of il th b e law tbe ordinary l i as ee t r s y es l s a i w on e. , that they were anxious to meet the ev il b y there was a defi- Though fever had arisen in cases ciency or want of food, other respects the country w as . generally free. He be lieved edthe alleged cases of fever that bad taken place in the workhouses wer e cases of d y senter y and not proper i k fever.—( Hear , hear.) Sir R. I GL IS said, that from the observations of the Members,lrish eeed and looking at the state of the benches, the g eneral that the discussion should be ad journed. f ee l ing em Still, he would be even more unworthy of a seat in that House than he was if he suffered such a speech to pass without expressing his cordial admiration of that addrest re markable as it had been for the topics introduced, as well as for those omitted.--(Hear, hear.) In discussing such a question as the one under consideration, the difficulty was to treat the state of Ireland so as to avoid those points of diffi culty through which other Ministers had been overset. His Noble Friend had attempted to conciliate both sides of the House, and had not attempted to provoke any opposition to the measures he proposed. There was one point upon which he (Sir R. H. Inglis) ventured to express some doubt, and that was whether his Noble Friend might not re-consider his pro posal to great advantage. As far as he (Sir R. H. Inglis) understood the statement made, there were no less than 4,500,000 acres in Ireland, which it was proposed to reclaim. His Noble Friend proposed to divide this large area into sections, so inconsiderable as not even the most purely political economy would propose for an impoverished and pauperised people, with its agricultere teriorating from day to day. Supposing this area were to be ell vided into compartments of 20 or 50 acres, It would be layin g the foundation of one of the greatest e*illez e d e re i nid —a rising population without means to enabler them to culti vate the soil. Let them look at France and see how the subdivision of land was injuring that grew! country. He would rese• ye to himself the opportunity on a future occa sion of giving further expression to his opinion on the measure of her Majesty's Government. In answer to a question put by Lord HAMILTON, we un stood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that it was not lroposed to allow the proprietors of land in Ire and to obtain money from the Goveinrnent for the purpose of carrying on the ordinary cultivation of the land. He begged to state that relative to the parish of Skibbereen, it should be borne in mind that there were an immense number of persons now to be fed, who had never required to be fed before; and in one parish in that union the deaths at present amounted to 25 per day. Having stated this he was most anxious to ask two questions of her Majesty's Government whether it was their intention to bring in a Bill to enlarge the Piers and Fisheries' Act by affording greater facilities, and also whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to take steps in consequence of the survey then making of Cork harbour (which they had been requested to do in consequence of an important meeting held there to take steps for the improvement and extension of that harbour. He thought that he might state that any outlay laid out on the harbour of Cork would be a most politic measure in conse quence of its important geographical position, and its import-, mice in the case of war. Mr. GRATTAN thought it most important, in considering the propriety of adjourning the debate, to consider what time the debate should be adjourned to. He fully coincided in the remarks made by the Noble Lord opposite, as to the state of the parish of Skibbereen. He had received a letter from a gentleman in whom every confidence might be placed, and he stated that the only red ground seen now was in the church, yard, and so great was the number of deaths, that five acres more were taken ,in to add to the churchyard. The Ministry said that nothing could be done to remedy this dreadful visita tion. He remembered when something was done. When the Right Hon. Gentleman who sat beside him (Sir R. H. Inglis. ) and himself were young, the greatest names which the country could produce, who then ruled the destinies of the empire, took measures for the speedy relief of Ireland. He remembered also, at a period not long remote, there were imported from foreign. countries 3,700,000 quarters of grain, and from Ireland 1,776,000 quay ters, making over 5,000,000 quart ers , an d she sent back to the fatter country 47,000 quarters. Out of a revenue which Rome, in its palmiest days, could never have boasted—out of a revenue of 53.000,000/., having an excess of 2,3oo,oool.—England allowed gram to reach 325. a barrel, and oatmeal 4s. 2d. a stone, while the wages of the labourer in Ireland only averaged Sd. and 9d. a day. He thought, therefore, if they adjourned this debate for a week, they ought to send over food in the meantime. If they had sent some relief to the southern counties in time, much of the present expense might have been spared them. There seemed to be a determination on both sides of the House not to continue this debate. The Noble Lord had made a very able speech. He had drawn a picture of Scotland, Eng land, and Ireland. He (Mr. Grattan), would not quote from the books referred to by the Noble Lord, but he would only remind them of the state of Ireland before that country was handed over to him and his predecessors. He would ask the ,Noble Lord why the Duke of Buckingham paid only 6,0001. in his neighbourhood, when he (Mr. Grattan) was actually taxed for teaching the children of his tenantry? Did they think that if individuals like the Duke of Buckingham, lived in the country, the loss of this esculent would have ruined Ireland. He would impress the Noble Lord on this point, that if he intended to tax those men who lived at home, they should also tax those who had abandoned their country, for he (Mr. Grattan) did not think that a man discharged his duty to his country, if he ran away, and left the people on his:estate to perish. Earl Fitawilliam, took his 50,0001. from the same part of the country, and Lord Portsmouth, was also a great proprietor. Ile trusted, there fore, that the Noble Lord would tax those gentlemen double, and he could assure the Noble Lord that the union with Irelancl could never be stable, until they had a contented peasantry, a happy yeomanry, and a resident gentry., Colonel VERNER said that there was one important point which seemed to have escaped the attention of all those who had addressed the House that evening. He referred to the purchase of *re-arms by the discontented peasantry. He had had a communication from a gentleman connected with the county which he had the honour to represent, and he was assured by that gentleman that a certain dealer had sold in a par ticular district of that county net less than 1,000 stand of arms, while at the same time not a farthing of rent was paid by any of the tenantry. In fact, it was dangerous to walk along the public road, for such was the practice at targets, that the pea santry, unaware to what length the guns would carry, very frequently missed by a hair's breadth the lives of the passers by. He would submit to the Noble Lord, that when people were steeped in destitution like Ireland, it was high time for Government to interfere and prevent the exportation of oatmeal from that country. Just before he left Ireland he gave his steward instructions to purchase a quantity of meal, but he had since learned that there was none to be had. This state of things could not have existed, had Government taken steps to prevent its being exported by speculative dealers. Mr. 'I UITE said he wished particularly to be allowed to refer to one circumstance the Noble Lord had mentioned. The Noble Lord had stated that farmers, who held 30, 40, and 60 acres of land, sent their son to participate in the distribution of funds, which had been intended for the relief of the peer starving population.—( Hear, hear.) Now he had attended very closely to the working of relief committees in his part of the country, and he was quite convinced such a circumstance as that mentioned by the Noble Lord could not take place without the sanction of the relief com mittee of the district where it occurred. He thought it due to those relief committees, who had done their duty, that the names of the committee who had suffered such a disgraceful occurrence to take place should be published to the world. He had no doubt that it had taken place, but he attri buted it all to absenteeism—the curse of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He would net trouble the House any further, ex cept to regret that the Noble Lord had not named an earlier day than Monday for the further discussion of those measures. Mr. HUSIE had heard with great satisfaction the statement of the Noble Lord, but still he must take exception to one or two of his points. The Noble Lord had, with great candour, stated the evils that hid atisen from the attempt of Govern ment agents to employ the peeple. The Noble Lord had stated enough to convince them that the system had produced as much evil as good, and the sooner it was brought to a close the better. There was one experiment in which he felt convinced Government would fail. He alluded to their Intention to reclaim waste lands. These attempts had always failed, and resulted in robbing this country of much of its capital. if the land was worth reclaiming, their would always be plenty of private capital to do it with, provided Govern ment would only consent to simplify the transference of land in Ireland, and establish there a similar land registry to that of Scotland. Now land agents had recently told him that there was plenty of private capital in this country ready to be ap plied to the recovery of waste lands in Ireland, but for the expensive and complicated machinery of conveying it, and the continued intermeddling of Government. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN rose for the purpose of putting a question to the Government upon one point of the Noble Lord's speech which he wished to have explained. It related to the jurisdiction—the contemporaneous jurisdiction of relief committees and boards of guardians. Did the Noble Lord mean to put an end to the relief committee! or to combine them as boards of guar di ans ? At present each had a separate jurisdiction, and be should be glad to know how this was to be in future.—( Hear, hear.) Since the commencement of this session he had heard a good many charges brought against the Government for passing the Labour-rate Act. Now, he was quite ready to admit that Government could have been justly blamed for bringing forward such a measure, but after the House had passed a;measure, responsibility ought to be shared by the kjeuse.—(Cheers.) He knew, from experience, that what the Noble Lord had said with regard to the landholders of Ireland was corrrect, and he was quite ready to allow that whatever had been the errors of former occupants of the land, it ought still to be made _responsible for the maintenance of the poor. Unless, therefore, the landholders were prepared to co operate with the Government, with self-denial, energy, and exertions which were not to be confined within common bounds, or limited within ordinary duration, Ireland never could be freed from its wretchedness and suffering.—( Hear, hear.) He warned the Noble Lord, however, that if the landholders of Ireland were slow to avail themselves of Government's assistance, it would not be from a lack of desire to do se, but because they were ruled by an agrarian law, that had its origin with their forefathers, and which placed them in extraordinary di ffi culties. All those who were ac quainted with land holding in Ireland, must be aware that it was not a very easy matter to induce a tenant, to increase his rent, for the improvement of his farm. It was difficult to put suck a question ; or if it were put, no doubt the landlord would only give one very significant answer.—( Hear, bear.) The Noble Lord must, therefore, be prepared to find a slow opera tion of his measure. He regretted to hear his Honourable and Gallant Friend, the Member for Clare, blame the Government for not putting a stop to the exportation of oatmeal from Ire land, because he was decidedly of opinion that it was for the benefit of all parties that the trade should be free and un fettered. He would relate a simple anecdote to show why he thought so, which would perhaps carry much more weight with it than any arguments based un political economy he could urge in favour of the principle. He spent the end of last summer and the early part of autumn in two very different parts of Ireland. He dwelt first on the alluvial shores of the river Shannon, and then passed to the mountainous districts of the county of Clare. He found in the last place that in con sequence of the peculiar nature of the climate they had to de pend almost entirely upon oatmeal. The crop, however, this year was exceedingly short, and in consequence of the failure of the potato crop they were compelled to carry their oats to Limerick, then sell them in the market, and puwhase wheat imported from England. The oats brought an excellent price but had Government interfered to prevent their expor tation these poor people would have been entirely de prived of food. This showed the necessity there was for the interchange of the commodities of the two countries. He begged to express his entire concurrence in the general views laid down by the Noble Lord. He cordially hailed the proposition that the land of Ireland should support the poor of Ireland. Before concluding, however, he would draw one more moral from the calamities of Ireland, which was, that it was to the landowners and proprietors of Ireland that the country alone should look for its political regeneration. r v .__ Mr. ROEBUCK could not entirely concur in ev ery from taken by the Noble Lord; he could not, " io hd l i fw f ivien a rg h , at he would expressing his admiration of the tone and racterised the whole of the speech of th e voble w L h o ic rd h . h H a ts . elaborate scheme. find it easy to carry out t the money I r i sh p asse l d a o l ,n o amN rndos,eB ihnteeor, Lord's plan referring to the pre ' of the Noble could not, however, allow That portion sent di ffi culties he ( • Mr Roebuck) referringw ould t not the r t e h g e e n n a r t a o t u i c o t the world whole to his o That portion, however, could not connect with the end proposed the upn. Roebuck)ngland considered s i fosterdered w hich g he had been proposed by the Noble Lord in his the mo H n e ey (A fr i o r na . that speech meansch Ireland, tattaking night. was a grievous ; ountry to Ireland t w e as ria a i b b s e o n lu oh te e l s y .) give H n e to ha th d ern se . e — n loan n om of th th e e s p l u in h i l s ic e a r n r d or. " A si ll t the money sent over to Ireland, but 'the had ynever come back again, and it was proposed to take only one-half of the money in return for the advance which was proposed to be made. He was glad to hear that a blow was now struck at the root of the evil in Ireland, and that it was ackn,iwledged that the land of Ireland must support the poor of Ireland. The Noble Lord would no doubt meet with considerable opposition from the landlords of Ireland, for the measure would no doubt be a bitter one to them. He hoped, however, that the Noble Lord would preserve that gallant bearing which''' he had shown that night,and not spoil the effect of his measure by endeavouring to sweeten it or make it more palatable to the people of Ireland by taxing the people of England for them, and he hoped the Noble Lord would recollect that there was a large English population to be considered even in legislating. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would take that opportunity of answering several questions which bad been put to him by Hon. Members. He had been asked what was the distinction between the functions of the board of guar dians and the relief committees. The Government did not propose to make any alteration in the functions of the board of guardians. They were to remain as at present of the prescnt constitut e d, and to continue to superintend the adm in istration poor law, but in each electoral division a relief committee was to be appointed. The members of the board of guardians and the magistrates of the county wo uld be ex-quieter members of the re le committees. fThese committees were to be constituted