The Sun. — London, England, 1832-04-11 00:00:00

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Lords from a lower to a higher degree in 'he Peerage-- not by means, my Lords, of sinecures and nensioas, by giving large emoluments for small services, but by honestly ,ur-ming that plan which would redound to the interest of the country. But if your Lordships will not ,Ilow Ministers to cirry on the Government of the •ountry upon that principle, what mutt he the conse •iuerice? Nothing that I can see hut filing. this Rouse will men of somewhat different notions. I gist it as .ny Opinion, and I will not mince the matter ; that if the House of Commons is to be reformed, this House ougl.t to be reformed also, otherwise there will be a constant col li,ion between the two. CONI RACTS FOR DANTZIC DECK DEALS, RIGA TIMBER, AND NORWAY SPARS. NAVY-OFFICE, APRIL a, 1832. THE Principal OFFICERS and COM MISSIONERS of his MAJESTY'S NAVY do hereby give Notice, that on WEDNESDAY, the 'sth inst.. at One o'clock, they be ready to treat with such persons as may be willing to contract for supplying his Majesty's several Dnck.yards with DANTZIC DECK DEALS, RIGA FIR TIMBER, and NORWAY SPARS. Distributions of the articles, and forms of tenders, may be •een at this office. Nn tender will he received after one o'clock, on the day of treaty, nor any noticed, unless the party or an agent for hint attends. Every tender must be accompanied by a letter addressed to the Navy Board, and signed by two responsible persons, engaging to become hound with the person tendering, in the following sums, for the due performance of the con tracts, viz.—for Dan tzic Deals, 1,800/. ; for Riga Timber, 1,300/. ; and by one person in the sum of 2001. for the contract for Norway Spars. G. SMITH. (No. 12.3.59.) LONDON. WEDNESDAy EvENINNtt-, A7RH A - tt, 1832. (i ) « - r. , ; n facturer, May 1, at twclve, at the White Swan, Halifax—A. Clark, Blackburn, Lancashire, draper, May 14, at twelve, at the Hotel, Blackburn—J. Walker, Ormskirk, Lancashire, draper, May 10, at four, at the Clarendon-rooms, Liverpool. BANK OP ENGLAND, A! , RIL 5, 12332:_ THE COURT OF DIRECTORS OF the GOVERNOR and COMPANY of the BANK of ENGLAND give Notice, That a GENERAL COURT will be held at the BANK on THURSDAY NEXT, the 12th of April, at Eleven o'clock in the Forenoon, on Special Affairs relating to the Charter. JOHN KNIGHT, Secretary. TO THE PROPRIETORS OF EAST INDIA STOCK. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE ELECTION of SIX DIREC TORS of the EAST INDIA COMPANY be ing appointed for WEDNESDAY, the 11th April next, the favour of your Vote and Interest is requested for the fol lowing. Gentlemen, vie.:— WILLIAM ASTELL, Esq. RUSSELL ELLICE, Esq. CAMPBELL MARJORIBANKS, Eeq. JOHN MASTERMAN, Esq. CHARLES ELTON PRESCOTT, Esq. GEORGE SMITH, Esq. Which will much oblige, Ladies and Gentlemen, Your humble Servants, James Law Lushington Robert Campbell George Lyall John Goldsborough Raverishaw Charles Mills Josias Du Pre Alexander John Morris Henry Alexander John Petty Muspratt John Baillie George Raikes James ltivett Carnac Henry Shank William Stanley Clarke James Stuart Neil Benjamin Edmonstone John Thornhill Robert Cutlar Fergusson Henry St. George Tucker loon Forbes William Wigram Hugh Lindsay William Young John Loch. Eist India House, March 28, 1832. TO THE PROPRIETORS OF EAST INDIA STOCK. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, HAVING the honour of being recommended to you by the Directors of the East India Com pany, as Candidates for the Direction, to be chosen this year ; we take the Liberty of requesting the Favour of your vote on the Day of Election, WEDNESDAT, the 11th April next. We are, Ladies and Gentlemen, Your most obedient and most humble Servant•, WILLIAM ASTELL RUSSELL ELLICE CAMPBELL MARJORIBANKS JOHN MASTERMAN CHARLES ELTON PRESCOTT GEORGE SMITH. East India House, March 28, 1832. EDINBURGH STEAM SHIP. THE UNITED KINGDOM, of 1,000 tons burthen, and 200 horse-rower, D. TURNER, Commander, will start from the STEAM NAVIGA TION WHARF, BLACKWALL, for EDINBURGH, on SUNDAY, the 15th inst., at ELEVEN O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, and on WEDNESDAY, the 25th, at NINE, calling off Scarborough, weather per mitting. Passengers by this Vessel are embarked and disem barked at the above-mentioned Wharf, without the use of boats, and starting in the morning will be on board only two instead of three nights, as is usual by starting at night. Berths may he taken, a plan of the Cabins seen, and every further information obtained by application to H. Under 700d, 56, Haymarket ; the Spread Eagle Office, Regent circus, Piccadilly ; or George Bell, Agent, 157, Fen church-street. N.B. This vtssel being now completely decked over, her chief and fore cabin accommodation, and also her machi nery, are very much improved. FROM LAST NIGHT'S GAZETTE. DOWNING-STREET, APRIL 7. The King has been graciously pleased to nominate aril appoint Major-General Hugh Fraser, of the Madras infantry, to be a Knight Commander of the Most Honourable Military Order of the Bath, in the room of Sir G. Martindell, deceased. DOWNING-STREET, Arntr.. 7. The King hath been pleased to appoint that William Woods, Esq., shall be the Officer of Arms attendant upon the Knights Commanders and Companions of the Most Honourable Military Order of the Bath, in the room of Sir George Nayler, deceased ; and that Sir H. Nicolas, Knt. shall be the Secretary appertaining to the said Knights Commanders and Companions, in the room of William Woods, Esq. Commissions by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Derby, To be Deputy Lieutenants—Edward Soresby Cox, William Evans, Charles bakeyne Gladwin, Francis Hurt, jun., William Drury Holden, John Harrison, William Hunter Hunter, Chas. Vicars Hunter, Henry Fotheringham Hunter, John G. Johnson, Richard Beacher Leacroft, William Jeffery Lockett, W. Palmer Morewood, Samuel Evans, Esqs. Commission by the Lord Lieutenant of the County of Glamorgan. Robert Jones, Esq. to be Deputy Lieutenant. DECLARATIONS OF INSOLVENCY. JOHN ELLA, White Conduit-terrace, Islington. GEORGE CROOKS, Anglesea-place, Limehouse, baker. BANKRUPTCY ENLARGED. fr ROBERT THOMAS Glyn, Glamorganshire, cattle-deale lro r, April 16 to M ay 16, at twelve, at the Rummer Tavern, ristnsol. ROB ERT HEN BANKRUPTS. ESEY, Drury-lane, timber-merchant, to sur render April 18, and May 22, at eleven, ' at the Court of Bank ruptcy. Webber, Caroline -street, Bedford-square. JAMES GALLIOR, Park-street Grosvenor-square, carpen ter, April 16, a t one, and May 22, at ten, at the Court of Bank ruptcy. Eaton, New Inn. CHARLES LEACH, Chelsea, baker, April 17, and May 22, at ten, at the Court of Bankruptcy-. Willis, Sloane-square. EVER ARD ESHAM, Thame, Oxfordshire, draper, April 17, and May 22, at one, at the Court o f B an k ruptcy. Whi teloc k , Alderrnanry. NEWMbuAN NEWLAND and WHlTEortsea drapers, April 26, an d May 22, at eIe H ven, ENRY at the Court , of P Bank_ , ruptcy. Ashurst, Newgate.street, London RICHARD WAYLING Ramsey, Essex * , butcher, April 27, and May 22, at eleven, at' the COurt of Bankruptcy. Mark, '.Soutbatnpton-buildings, Chancery-lane. JOHN PINK MAN, White Lion-street, Pentonville, victual ler, April 24, a t e l even, and May 22, at twelve, at the Court of Ba nkruptcy. Swan, 13e11-yard t)octors' Commons. ROBE 18, Ra one l and May 22 at twelve, at the Court of . ruptcy. Baxend a l e , 'Tatham, Upton, and Johnson, King's Bank Arms yard, London. JOHN NICHOLS and THOMAS WALTER, Skinner-street, ironmongers, April 19, at twelve, and May 22, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Walker and Olichards, Lincoln's Inn fields; Capper, Birmingham. THOMAS HAYNES, Great Yarmouth, Norfolk, cabinet_ maker, April 16, at seven, 17, at t en , and May 22, at eleven, a t th e Star Tavern, Great Yarmouth. Worship, Great Yarmouth ; White and Borrett, Great St.llelen's, Bishopsgate.street, London. JOHN SAMUEL ACKERS, Birmingham, victualler, April 12, and May 22, at eleven, at Dee's Royal Hotel, Birmingham. Lee, Hunt, and Adams, Birmingham; Alexander, Gom, and Dooley, Carey-street, Lincoln's Inn, London. RICHARD JAMES WHITE POWER, Havant, Southanm ton, fell-monger, April '24, 30, and May '22, at twelve, at the Bear Inn, Havant. Stevens and Longcroft, Havant; Gude and Gor don, Lombard-street. WILLIAM SCORAH, East Retford, cabinet-maker, April 18, at eleven and one, and May 22, at eleven, at the White Hart Inn, East Retford. Marshall, East Retford ; Smith, Chancery-lane. JOSEPH ORBELL, Great Henny, Essex, miller, April 12, at five, 13, and May 22, at ten, at the Rose and Crown Inn, Sud bury. Stedman, Sudbury; Wiglesworth and Ridsdale, Gray's Inn-square. JOHN LATHAM, Llanelly, Carmarthen s hir e , s pi r it-m er . chant, April 'X, and May 22, at twelve, at the Mackworth Arms Inn, Swensea. Jones, Sivansea ; Rowland and Young, Princes street, Bank. DIVIENDS. J. Hought on an d J. Watts, S D oho-square, drapers, May 15, at twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy —S. Powell, Blackman-street, Borough, draper, May 15, at ten, at the Court of Bankruptcy— W. Butt, Sheerness, linen -draper, May 2, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptey—J. T. Thompson, Long-acre, coach-joiner, May 2, at one, at: the Court of Bankruptcy —R. Whayman, West Smithfield, victualler, May 3, at half-past twelve, at the Court of Bankruptcy—W. Thomas, Broad-street Bloomsbury, vic tualler, May 3, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy— W. Leckie, Adam's-court, Old Broad-street, insurance-broker, May 3, at half-past ten, a t th e C ourt of Bankruptcy—C. R. Burford, Upper Charlotte-street, Fitzroy-square, paper-hanger. May 3, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy —J. Elder, Oxford-street, horse-dealer, May 3, at eleven, at the Court of Bankruptcy— C. Andrew and W. Baffles, Compton-stre e t, Cl er k enwell, na il_ warehousemen, ' May 3, at ten, at the Court of Bankruptcy— E. Orosjean, Piccadilly, hatter, May 2, at ten, at the Court of B ankruptcy —R. Holden, Mincing-lane, West India broker, ?4, Y 1, at ten, at the Court of Bankruptcy —11. Bennison, South ;LnNew -road, St. Pancras, iron-f ence -manufacturer, May 3, alf-past one, at the Court of B an k ruptcy—C. C. Bulley and i,,' Lavers Nicholas-lane, wine -merchants, May 2, at ten, at the :ourt of B ankruptcy -,J. Horde!), J. Wood, and J. Crosse, Lad ___atke! 3wiaredehousemen, May 2, at one, at the Court of Bankruptcy ten, at thon,ald, Regent-street, arnay-agent, May 2, at half-past street, maci ( c , o , urt of Bankruptcy—J. and G. Andrews, Bread- Bankruptcy ,A ell _hall-factors, May 3, at twelve, at the Court of May . at ;T i lt `K. Robinson Walbrook-buildings, iron -master, Bexley, Kent, at the Court of Bankruptcy —E. Cottingham, ruptcY—T. Je nn * rgeon, May 3, at twelve, at the Court of Bank the Guildhall. May 2, at twocnt, Canterbury, builder, May 8, at eleven, at maltster, ' ury—J. M. Bennett, Broseley, Shropshire, Brierley-hill Iron ‘et the Lion Inn,Broseley—W.Hornblower, master, m —aY 5 , at o ne nrks, Kingswinford, Staffordshire, iron cestershire—T Dewil at the Wheatsheaf Inn, Bewdley, Wor t welve at the offi ce 0 ' f .'. ,31, Liverpool, ironmonger, May 3, at page, Leds, merchants ~r, Leather, Liverpool—J. and F. La- Davenport, Liverp oo L4 ). '.ky 2, at one, at the office of Mr. T. eaver, Winsley, Shropshire, timber. merchant; May 2, at twelve a r t the Crown Inn, Shrewsbury—J. Cooper Liverpool, bone_d ea_ e l raoirs,'BriAol—N. Wilson, Rahax, at two, at the Clarendon y - Yorkshire, itraw-hat-manu , CERTIFICATES MAY 1. G. Willis Haymarket, oilman—J. Lloyd, Fore-street, sta tioner—C. Bennett, Vauxhall-walk, St. Mary's, Lambeth, smith—B. L. Watson, Liverpool, flag.manufacturer—J. Petty, Liverpool, coal-merchant—W. Tabberer, Great Wigston, I ei cestershire, timber-merchant—J. E. Johnson, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, wine-merchant—G. Duplex, Pleasant-place, Penton ville, chemist—J. Hackney, Cobridge, Staffordshire, earthen ware-manufacturer—H. Smith, Fleet-lane, victualler. PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED. J. and P. Ouarterman, Oxford, carpenters—W. and J. Nan son, Penrith, Cumberland, hatters—M. and R. Morrah, Worthing, Sussex, surgeons—J. and W. Wareng, Harrington, near Liverpool, blacksmiths—J. Noble and H. Clark, Jerinyti street, St. James's, vapour-bath directors—T. Hardy and Co., Lymm, Cheshire, corn-dealers—p. Hope and W. Maples, Li verpool, wine-merchants--J. Fox and T. Preston, Basinghall street, Blackwell-hall-factors—W. and S. Phillips, Thorncombe, Devonshire, clothiers—R. Hooper and A. Holbrow, Wootton Basset, Wiltshire, surgeons—C. Wratten and P. M. Pursglove, Herstmonceux, Sussex, common-brewers—J. Fearnhough and. R. Crookes, Sheffield, Yorkshire, saw-manufacturers—J. Ed wards and J. Drummond, Liverpool, tailors—W. and G. Groom, Hitchen, Hertfordshire, tailors—J. Jackson and J. Hawkins, )linsterworth, Gloucestershire, farmers—J. Cunnington and J. Cox, Portman-street, Portman-squai e, butchers—J. Christopher son and R. Saxon, Liverpool, victuallers. IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 10. At F; 'e o'clock the Earl of SHAFTESBURY at as De puty Speaker, in the absence of the Lord Chancellor. AIESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS. Mr. BERNAL, and others from the Commune, brought up the Steam Carriage bill, and others, which—warn-imme diately read a first time. EDUCATION IN IRELAND. Lord KINNOUL presented tw•o petitions against the proposed plan of education in Ireland, from Dumblane and a parish in Perthshire.—Liid upon the table. FACTORIES BILL. Lord RADNOR presented a petition from Carlisle, in favour of the Factories Regulation Bid. REFORM. Lord CAMPERDOWN presented several petitions in favour of the Reform Bill. The House then adjourned during pleasure, and resumed at Half-past Five o'clock—the LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack. Lord ALBEMARLE presented a petition in fa% our of Refot m, from Bicester. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented the petitions in favour of Reform he withdrew last night, stating that he had read them, and found them worded in a manner per fectly respectful. The Marquess of DOWNSHIRE presented a similar petition from a parish in Downshire. The Duke of RUTLAND presented several pe titions from places in Rutland, Cambridge, and Suf folk, against the proposed plan of education for Ireland. Also a petition from Leicester and its neighbourhood, signed by several hundred persons, expressing their appre hensions for the safety of the Protestant religion in Ireland. The Noble Duke also presented petitions against the Re form Bill from the same place. Lord WYNFORD presented a petition from the Corporation of Arundel, praying tie House to alter the boundary fixed upon by the Commissioners, which gave too much influence to a certain Peer of the realm, who had great property in the neighbourhood. He did not object to close boroughs, but if they were to be abolished on one side, so ought they on the others. The petitioners were so confident of the little independence that would be lett to the borough, with its present proposed boundary, that unless it were altered they would prefer being placed in schedule A. He took this oppor tunity of giving notice, that he should on Tuesday next, if the Reform Bill now under discussion were read a second time, move that the Report of the Com missioners with respect to the boundary of Arundel be referred to a Committee. At present, he could not understand why Littlehampton should be included in that boundary when other places of more importance were much nearer. Was it that the Duke of Norfolk had property there ? The Duke of RICHMOND—When the proper time arrives I think I shall be able to show that the effect of the boundary, as at present established, will not be to make Arundel a nomination borough ; but I chiefly rise to explain to the House the true nature of the general proposal made by the petitioners of Arundel to be placed in schedule A, in case the boundary of which they complain should not be altered. The corporation from whence this petition emanates consists of several resident gentlemen ; and as by the Bill the return of the Member is taken out of their hands and placed in those of the inhabitants, as they thus lose the exclusive nomination, they may, perhaps, be indifferent as to whe ther the borough is or is not placed in schedule A, and raise a great outcry against Reform, for, as they say, creating sonic nomination boroughs, whilst it destroys others. He pledged himself (continued his Grace, and thought his colleagues would agree with him, that if the Noble Lord opposite could prove there was a single nomination borough left, he should be happy to support that Noble Lord, in making Schedule A consist of sixty or sixty.three boroughs instead of fifty-six. He must state, however, that the reason why the Commissioners kad taken in Littlehampton was, that it was the port of Arundel, where vessels coming to it, were obliged to wait for the tide, and the interests of which were perfectly identical with those of Arundel. It was true that the Duke or Norfolk had some houses at Littlehampton, but they were, many of them, let for long terms of years, and, consequently, could give that Noble Duke but little influence or import ance there. He thought he should be able to show that the conclusion that the Noble and Learned Lord had come to was erroneous ; but in case be failed, and the Noble and Learned Lord should show that taking in Littlehampton was not proper, and that Arundel ought to be placed in schedule A, he for one should be most happy to agree in the Noble and Learned Lord's motion for placing it there.—(Hear.) _ ....... Lord WYNFORD said the inference which the Noble Duke had drawn from his statement was not a very correct one, for the Noble Duke could not say the Borough of Arun del would belong exclusively to the Corporation. It never did belong to it, and was never governed by the Corporation of Arundel. The Noble Duke had said, that by adding this Littlehampton they had travelled four miles out of their way, and left out twenty parishes which were all nearer. In Littlehampton there was a great deal of waste land, and if it were added to Arundel, that waste land would be let out on building leases, as was the borough itself, and which leases could not be parted with for a single hour without the consent of the patrons. This would make the borough to all intents and purposes a nomination borough. He (Lord Wynford) wanted to know why the 20 parishes had been passed by ? The Duk; of RICHMOND would certainly not follow the Noble and Learned Lord through the irregular conver sation which he had entered into.—(Hear, bear, hear.) Suppose he was right in what he had stated, would the Noble and Learned Lord move that Arundel should be placed in schedule A? Lord WYNFORD would not move that it should be placed in schedule A, but be would adopt the only fair course he could think of, namely, move to throw a circle round, and include the whole of the population within that circle. Lord FALMOUTH could not but be surprised at the change of the Noble Duke's principles op posite. He, however, remembered at the time when a Noble Lord behind him made a declaration iu favour of Reform, the Noble Duke, at the time at which he was his quondam political friend, rose and repudiated all idea of his being included in that declaration in favour of Reform. In a short time afterwards came the Catholic Bill. He (Lord F.) invited their Lordships to look at the recorded sentiments—(Cries of " Protest ")—recorded sentiments and protest of the Noble Duke delivered at the time; then to draw a comparison between the able speech he made on that occasion, and the speeches which had fallen from him lately. Though he (Lord Falmouth) had been silent for a considerable time, seeing the zeal of the Noble Duke opposite, he could no long er with stand bringing the recollection of their Lordships hack to the change which bad taken place in the Noble Doke's mind since the year 1829, and leaving him to explain it. Th e Duke of RICHMOND thought the Noble Lord , iad better afford him the opportunity of answering this ittack, when he came to speak in the course of the de bate, otherwise be would be afraid of irregularly intrud ing on the time of the House at present (Cries of Go on.) Ile then und erstoo d t h at h e was at lib er ty to expl a i n that r was one of the most unprovoked and certainly one of the niost unjustifiable attacks that bad ever been made on Peer in that House.--(Loud cheery.) if he c i altered his opinion on the subject of R e _ he should not now have been ashamed ref it.—(Repeated cheers.-) If ever he had been an Anti-Reform er he should now have said the times were much changed. Were f.e to look at the speeches of noble Lords on the other side, anti-reformers as they were, and anti-reformers as they might now be desirous of being, there was hardly an individual in that House this day who did not hink an extensive measure of Reform was ab ,dutely necessary. What was the course adopted on the occasion on which he made the speech referred to ? That very Noble Lord who had made this attack upon him had made a speech respecting the Right Reverend Bench, as he (the Noble Duke) recollec ted, the very evening before being removed from !hat House. —(Loud cheers.) The Noble Lord said that if contrary to the opinion of the majority of the people of this country, contrary to the opinions which crowded that table, the House of Commons did grant Ca• audio Emancipation, he for one would support any system of Reform which any individual might introduce. He stated that he would not vote for Reform merely because th e House of Commons had carried the Catholic question. That was what he had stated. He had not at that moment got the papers with him, as he had not had the slightest suspicion that he should be called upon— (Loud cries of Hear from the Opposition) to receive on his legs the cheers at the other side the House. It appeared that in she debate of last night they had been too calm, and nosy there was an attempt by personal attack to raise that feeling in the House which would prevent the calm consideration of the question.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the speech which he had made on occasion of the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders of Ireland, it appeared to the Noble Lord (Fahnouth) that he was now chargeable with inconsistency. But if he (the Duke of Richmond) was inconsistent, what became of the Noble Lords who voted the other way? What became of the Noble Lords who disfranchised the forty shilling freeholders ? That forsooth was no attack on vested rights ! No ; but to touch St. M iwes, or Gatton, or Old Sarum, that were indeed a robbery, revolution, spoliation, and all the rest of it.—(Cheers.) Lord FA LMOUTH had not charged the Noble Duke with inconsistency. The Duke of RICHMOND was then at a loss to conceive on what ground he had been called on to vin dicate himself, if not from the charges of incon sistency.—(Hear and cheers.) What had he in reality said on the occasio❑ alluded to? that if you disfranchised the:4os. freeholders in Ireland, you were:disfranchising free holders in fee, and not fictitious freeholders. The House could ❑ot stop short of a general Reform.—(Hear.) He challenged any one to prove that he had ever spoken against Parliamentary Reform; on the contrary, from the first moment he had entered Pat liatnent, he had wondered how it was possible for any one to get up seriously to defend the nomi nation and rotten boroughs. Lord FALMOUTH wished merely to say, that in reference to the disfranchisement of the flirty shilling freeholders, he had not given any opinion, nor had he voted in favour of the ft-leisure. The Marquis of SALISBURY said, that if unfortunately the Reform Bill should pass the second reading, it was his decided intention to bring the question of disfranchisement before the House in all its bearings. When he saw the Noble Duke with whom lie had the honour of voting on the question of the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders, standing up as the prime champion of that Bi,l, which, in his opinion, contained the grossest robbery and spoliation that ever were proposed in either House of Parliament, he felt bound to point out the very marked difference between what had then occurred, and the case which at present existed. He asked the Noble Lord or any Noble Lord in that House, whether the Catholic Relief Bill had not depended on the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders, and whether it was nut asserted to be a full compensation for that disfranchise ment. There was no complaint by themselves that the Irish 40a.freeholders ha,l been disfranchised, as they had accepted the Relief Bill as a compensation. He would make no at tack on the Noble Duke; indeed he quite agreed with him, that if he could see that a Reform such as that now proposed could be beneficial to the country, if founded in justice, it ought to be granted. But he believed that no ex. pediency could justify a gross act of spoliation and robbery. But if he recollected right, the protest signed by the Noble Duke on the occasion alluded to, carried the question of vested rights to such an extent, that although he (Lord Salisbury) had come down to the House determined to concur in it, he felt he could not go so far. There was one question, however, which he should like to hear answered,—on what principle the Noble Duke considered an Irish forty-shilling free holder, a more respectable man than one who was a mem ber of the Corporation of the Borough of Arundel.—. (Hear, hear.) He had a right to believe that the Noble Duke was sincere in his support of the present measure, or with all the charms of office, he did not think lie would retain his seat on that Bench. But when the question was fully gone into, he should show that rot ten boroughs had been of more benefit to the Constitution than the Noble Duke was willing to admit. The Noble Duke was. he believed, the only one on that bench who had nut, at one time or other, stated his admiration of rot ten boroughs. The Marquess of CLEVELAND said, it was great presumption in him to take part in a debate upon a question of such deep importance; but having heard so much respecting nomination boroughs, he was hound to state to the House and to the country that there were few individuals—if, indeed, there was one—in that House, who had more interest in supporting boroughs of that description than the humble individual who was now addressing them. —(Cheers.) He must begin by stating in a few words that he had been always a strenuous and steadfast supporter of Reform in Parliament. Now it might appear not a little singular that while he advocated Reform, he was proprietor of considerable Parliamentary influence. He awed this, however, upon principle, as he wished to state to the House, and to the country at large, that while his sole object had been, since he had the power of sit ting in Parliament, which he was sorry to say was so long ago as 1792, to be the steady supporter of Reform, Le was, at the same time, most anxious to possess Parliamentary influence.—(Cheers from the Opposi tion, which were echoed by the Ministerial side.) He had from that period, although young in age and in political life, seen that those who were in the same situ ation in life as himself, and possessing, as he be lieved, the same means of possessing parliamentary influence as himself, endeavoured to increase that in fluence. He had certainly endeavoured so to do, from a conviction in his own mind that he was right in so doing. He stated now, and he felt proud in having the opportunity of stating it, that those who were in the same situation as himself, endeavoured by all the means in their power to support men and measures which he conceived most detrimental to the interests of the coun try. From the year 1792 he could nearly date the misfor tunes of this country. That was his most decided opinion, and whether right or wrong he persisted in his opinion that that period was the origin of the present dis tress.—(Hear, hear, hear.) At that time be wished to obtain that Parliamentary influence in l which lie had since succeeded, but be most respectfully, yet firmly differed from the opinion of Noble Lords op posite, that the present Bill was a spoliation of property, ;cheers;. He conceived that property of that description was generally obtained for two objects ; either from a desire to obtain Parliamentary influence, or fr,rn a desire, the idea of which he was sure none of their Lordships would entertain, to secure some pecuniary advantage by the sale of seats in the House of Commons. As to one of those objects, he was sure it was so indefen sible that he need not waste their Lordships' time by condemning it. As to the other—that of ob taining Parliamentary influence, if it were a crime, he for one must plead guilty to it. He did it for the sake of Parliamentary influence, and for the pur pose of counteracting those measures and the men who brought forward those measures which he con tinually had, without exception, opposed. That being the cause of his wishing for Parliamentary influence, whether lie 'ucceeded or not, he would not stop to detail, but it was d me for the sake of supporting liberal principles. A Noble Baron apposite, who spoke yesterday evening, asserted that all the Whigs had come over to support a Right Hon. Gentleman whose loss none more deeply deplored than itimse:f—he meant Mr. Canning—that all the Whigs c ime aver to support that Right Hon. Gentleman, except a very tew. He was one who gave Mr. Conning his support, nad he neither regretted having done so, nor was lie ashamed - o state it. He did so upon principle, because he thought that when Mr. Canning came into power it opened to us .he daw n of liberal principles in this country. He then supported 'lr. Carmine, without any previous knowledge of him. After the death of that illustrious individual, he felt mewl to tender his support to the Noble Disk. ooacaei,e (Wellington,) h cause lie thought that that Nile individual had conferred great benefits oi the country, in regard to many of those particular points. which Mr, Canning had himself edvoc ,te(l.—( Hear. ) He felt convinced from the Noble Duke's elevation, :ind from the knowledge which he had of him, that he would candidly allow that upon the question of Parliamentar3. Refrm, he had told tl e Noble Duke at a conference is had with him, that he could not agree with him i n the view which lie took upon the subject. The Noble Duke candidly and openly stated to him the reason why he opposel that measure. Ever since he had entered that House, which was in 1792, he had supported Reform, and should do so to the latest period of his life.—( Hear, hear.) His age was now very great, but the longer he lived, the more he was convinced of the necessity for Reform, and when his Noble Friend at the head of his Majesty's Government declared to Parliament the grounds on which he had taken the Adminis tration, and on which his Majesty had appointed him Prime Minieter, he could not but congratulate him on that declaration. He trusted that the pre sent Bill of Reform which had been brought before Parliament, and laid on tsar table of their Lordships' House, would not be withdrawn from that table until it had re ceived the entire and unqUalified assent of his Majesty. He thanked his noble friend (Earl Grey,) and the rest of his Majesty's Ministers, for bringing this mea sure , forward, as he considered it the only means of securing the safety, the prosperity, and the advantage of the country. Clamour would never have its weight with him, but popular opinion always would.— (Hear, hear.) He was convinced, whatever might be said to the contrary by Noble Lords on the other Bids of the House, that no re-action whatever had taken pace on this subject, except indeed a re-action had taken place in the minds of some of their Lordships on the other side of the House, which he hoped and trusted was the case, and for which lie should congratulate their Lordships and the country, as he thought it the most de sirable circumstance that could happen for the good of the community. —( (sheers. ) Lord Howard, of Effingham, the Marquess of London derry and the Earl of Winchilsea rose together ; the cries for Lord Howard resounded from all parts of the House, and the two latter Noblemen gave way. Lord HOWARD considered the opinion of the Noble Eat I opposite (Falmouth), if he re illy meant to say as he understood him, that it was improper and extraordinary in Noble Lords, who years previously had stated they were against Reform, now to get up and advocate it, founded on erroneous principles. The circumstances of the country had so changed within the last few years, as per fectly to justify, nay imperatively call upon Noble Lords to pursue a different course.—(Cheers.) As long as nemination boroughs were acceded to by the country, so long they would hold their ground ; but the moment the public voice was raised up against them, they (aught unquestionably to be dune away with.—(Hear.) The property in those bo. roughs was neither legal nor legitimate. With re , pect to the case of the borough of Arundel, which had given rise to the present discussion, he must beg to say that Arundel never was a close borough. He considered it a very strong and prominent duty on the part of Noble Lords to change their opinions if they were against a question of such vital importance as this, especially at a time when public opinion was ex pressed in such strong terms in favour of the present mea sure of Reform by almost every member of the respectable classes of society hi the country. He thought that such an expression of opinion lay the country was a fair and legitimate ground for any Noble Peer to change his opi nions, however strong, at any period they might have been. Lord FALMOUTH explained : he did not apply his observations to any particular individual. Lord HOWARD explained. • The Marquess of LONDONDERRY had listened with respect to what had fallen from the Noble Marquess on the other side of the House, and especially to the latter part of his speech, which was in explanation of his politi cal power, how he acquired it, and how h' had chosen to execute it. It was extraordinary that the Noble Marquess, who was not in any way attacked, should think it neces sary to come forward to show that every administration had been equally supported by him. If there was a point which could induce him (the Marquess of Londonderry) to say that the borough interest ought to be token out of the hands of those who possessed it, it would be when he saw such a support of Ministerial cases.—(Laughter.) The Noble Marquess had said that Reform was the only question on which the different administrations had dif fered, but he denied this, far they had differed on eveay point. The Noble Marquess was always on the side of the Noble Duke who was now on the Opposi tion benches, and now the Noble Marquess was a strong supporter of the present Government. The Noble Mar quess had on former occasions come to the House with petitions which afforded him the opportunity of stating his great disinterestedn-ss in sacrificing his boroughs on the altar of his country —(Hear, hear.) He was the last person to suppose that the Noble Mar quess had not patriotic notions. I he (the Marquess of Lon donderry) were possessed of boroughs, which unfortunately he never was, and if lie wished to make the most of them, when the Reform question came before the House, he would tell the Noble Marquess fairly he would indepedently support the Noble Earl, for, if the Bill should unfortunately pass, the Noble Earl who dispensed the favours of the Crown might have the power of making Viscounts and Earls. If this most unhappy Bill should pass, he had good reason to believe, that all those Noble persons who had sacrificed boroughs on the altar of their country would meet their reward ; but if the House should reject the Bill, what then would happen? The Noble Marquess would still possess his boroughs, and he did not despair of seeing the Noble Marquess on the same side of the House.—(Laughter.) He had been told that by the Bill his political interest should be considerably increased, but he hoped that he never would be influenced by such motives. He had acted entirely throughout his life on fair and not on selfish principles. But if he looked for ward at the arrangements in the county of Durham, al though the Noble Marquess's boroughs might go, he would still find many things to his advantage. That county presented one of the most gross jobs he had ever heard ot. (Hear.) When the Bill came before the House he should meet th a question, and show that the arrangements in Dur ham formed one of the most gross jobs to he found in this most gross Whig Bill, The Marquess of CLEVELAND said, that in conse quence of the very personal attack made on him, he must claim the privilege of saying a few words, though he was aware that so important a question as the Reform Bill was grants,in his on the O r d ers o f t h e D ay. H e was, h owever, b ound to stand forward allowances, own deofer honours u With rstobe conferred upon t o any favours, him, he could disclaim before their Lordships and the coun try that he had any idea of receiving arty such advantage. —(Hear, hear.) He would assert he was as independent as the Noble Marquess, or as any Nobleman whatever in that House. With reference to the question of Parlia mentary Reform, he had acted with perfect independence of either Government. Frern 1792 to 1827 he had acted in constant opposition to the Government of the country. He never asked for any place, nor ever had occasion to have a memorandum made of him, in which it was " id of what he asked, that " it was too bad."--- He had the honour of being promoted to the rank he now held by his late Majesty, without any solicitation on his part; and he now sat behind his present Noble Friends., supporting them in their measures, because he thought they were the men who were able to bring us out of our present difficulties, and he was certain they would d o that which was best for the community at large. The Marquess of LONDONDERRY explained, The Duke of WELLINGTON bore testimony to the inde. pendent manner in which the noble Marquess opposite Cleveland) had always supported him. ~ .. Earl GREY said he was not present when this conversation commenced ; but understood that it had originated in a petition respecting the boun daries of Arundel. It was with regret that he had listened for the last three quarters of an hour, not to a discussion bearing the most remotely upon that subject, but to a personal debate with respect to the motives an d con d uct o f diff erent P eers w h o had taken part i n di scuss i ng the quest i on of Reform.— (H ear , hear.) He wi s h ed the House to consider whether t h is was a ti me to int ro d uce a pu b l i c d i scuss i on of that nature . They wer e now abo u t to enter upon a great que stion of consti tutional prob a bl e, that the decision of their Lords hi ps m i g ht not policy, on which it was possible, but he trusted not lie in accordance with the general wisließ of the people. It could not be their wish, and he was certain it wda not their interest, that that decision should be lia la to the imputation of being affected by any L•r•sonal inotivei. But what had they been hearing )iit accusation and recriirination from one bide to another. es if no person comid vote upon this subject except I.on personal motives ?—( The Marquiss of Londonderry poi L ,rd Falmouth '' No, no.") The Noble Earl said ;to ; but what could be the object of his personal attack upon his (Lord Grey's) Noble Friend ; but to show that his conduct was inconsistent, and upon that to rest an imputation that it was governed by improper motives ? Lord FALMOUTH here rose amidst loud cries of '• Order, order," and exclaimed, " No, no,' with great vehemence. Earl GREY said, that he was in possession of the idouse ; but if the Noble Earl wished, he was able to explain, although he had twice spoken. He had no doubt the House would allow him to do so ; but he asked again what could have been the object of such an attack which had no relation to the subject before the House ? Such a discussion was ruinous to the character of of the House, as it betokened a temper and feeling ineon• sistent with that calm and temperate consideration which it was their duty to apply to this subject. He %you'd only express his regret that such an attack should have been made upon his Noble Friend, who, of all men, was, from the independence of his character, the least open to it. No one who knew him would, he was sure, have their confidence in him shaken by what had taken place. Lord FALMOUTH, after great difficulty was permitted to explain. The Noble Earl had completely mistaken him. He (Lord Falmouth) had not attributed motives to the Noble Duke, for whom he entertained every possible respect. He would be ashamed of himself to attribute motives to that Noble Duke. He desired not to recriminate, for that would not be within the bounds of explanation ; but if he were to do so, he would say that no Noble Lord had received more indulgence from that House in the course of several debates (probably from a com pliment to his high talent) than the Noble Earl who had thought proper to accuse him (Laid Fahnouth) of being i! regular. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table, Lord LANSDOWNE said he had to lay before their Lordr,hips an Order in Council pursuant to Act of Paria ment. REFORM BILL. The Order of the Dry having been moved for the second reading of the Reform Bill, Lord SHREWSBURY said, he was unwilling to allow the most important question that ever came before that House, to pass without a few observations from him, and few they certainly should be. Whether the Bill now before the House was perfect in all its details, he would not pretend at present to say ; but he was wiling, in this respect, to trust to the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Government. The Noble Earl was the most competent and the most consistent Statesman.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Whether it would produce all the good that could be de sired, he would not venture to assert ; but that it would produce benefit, no one could doubt. It was also with feelings of considerable satisfaction that on a former occasion a Noble Duke opposite had said he was now willing, in some degree at least, to yield to a system of Reform, and it was certainly something to acknow ledge that the day was come when it was expedient to yield to Reform. With respect to the noble and gallant Duke opposite, whose opinions were always to be entitled to attention, undoubtedly he ought to be the last man who ought -to assert that it was either dishonourable or un becoming to yield to agitation. If the Noble and Gallant Duke did well (and well he did) to yield to agitation in 1829, he would do well on the'present oc casion, as would every man, in yielding to that which ought long since to have been conceded. Was it policy in any Government to wait till justice triumphed through the channels of the people ?—( Hear, bear.) This was at best a dangerous expedient, and it was for this reason he desired to see the system altered, that henceforth the grievances of the country might be removed by a real representation of the people. It appeared to him that our Constitution had never yet been but a beautiful theory, subject to continual contradiction in prac tice. He could not see that it had ever yet saved us from any of those evils incident to other states, or other forms of Government. We bad been perpetually engaged in the most wasteful and unjust wars, which had at last plunged us into a debt amounting to 100,000,000 of money. We had had tyranny, anarchy, civil war, rebellion, and revolution—(Hear, hear)—we had had at times commercial embar rassments to a degree unknown in other countries... we had had a poor unemployed population—a population literally starving in the midst of our city.—(Hear, hear.) As to crimes, of late years they had been multiplied to an enormous extent. We had seen at times the most profligate corruption running through the Go vernment of the country, and this applied at all times to Government supporting themselves upon patronage— ( Hear, hear, hear)—keeping the whole army of occupation in both Houses of Parliament, and without which they could not have existed for a moment.— Their Lordships bad seen this system persevered in, till the people driven to desperation by the evils produced, had cried out with one accord, and determined to emancipate themselves from their thraldom.—(Cheers.) The Con stitution of this country was worthy of the praises bestowed upon it, if it had fair play. This Bill was calculated to give it fair play, and to allow it to develope all its powers, affording freedom, liberty, independence and authority, instead of that deadly oligarchy which it ap peared to him, (Lord Shrewsbury,) had ruled these countries fur so many years,—an oligarchy which had usurped in every order of the state all the independence and liberty ef the realm. My Lords, continued the Noble Lord, such a system car ries the seeds of dissolution within itself. Your ex travagance, your disregard to the interests of the country, your absolute tyranny over the people of Ireland, the bitter fruits of which you are now reaping (Hear, hear, bear,) are all exposed in their true light, and, in my opinion, we stand, as a culprit, before the people. Judgment is pronounced on us, and our only hope of pardon is to sue for it in this act of justice. Pass this Bill, and all your former power is restored to you, the power which you have too long pus sessessed, to do mischief, to which the miserable condition of this country bears witness. Show your readiness to co perate honourably and effectually with the Government and the people in the regeneration of the empire. But, my Lords, if we are to continue to legislate for ourselves, seeking our own separate interests and setting those of the country at de fiance, the sooner we cease that legislation the better. We must found our power and privileges on the good we do, and not on any extravagant ideas of the sacred and imperishable nature of our prerogative. We must right the people, or the people will right themselves, and the irritating contest in which we are now engaged, will find its issue in some general and dreadful convulsion. My Lords, after the speech addressed to you last night, by a Rev. Prelate in opposition to this Bill, I would ad dress one word to that portion of the House of which the Right Rev. Prelate forms a part. My Lords, if the clergy know any thing of their own interests—and it is generally supposed that they do—(Hear, and a laugh).— am sure they ought to be the first to come forward and do their duty to the country, by supporting on this occasion the Reform Bill. Hitherto, my. Lords, they have been too often allied to the worst enemies of the country. Too often they have lent themselves as willing agents to every system of tyranny and persecution, of extra vagance and spoliation.—(Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) I say, my Lords, of extravagance and spoliation with which this country has ever been afflicted--(Loud cries of " No, no," from the same quarter.), But the time has now arrived—the opportunity has now come on, when it will be seen whether they be capable of appreciating the spirit of the times, and of endeavouring, as fir as in them lies, to remedy those evils which they had but too large a share in producing. My Lords, I would also take the liberty of addressing myself to those Noble Lords who intend to vote for the second reading of this Bill, with a view of bringing it into a snare, in which they will be able the more readily to despatch it. It does appear to me it would be much better that they should oppose it in iimine ; that they should manfully stand to their own opinions ; that they should fight it in front, and desist from that desultory warfare which they are now about to wage against it. But I do believe, my Lords, that they will brine it into a snare from which Government will not easily be able to extricate it. The Minister, my Lords, be he who he may, must, under existing circumstances, and under all circum stances, command a majority in t"is House, or he has no alternative but to resign. Under the present circumstances, however, of the country, I cannot contemplate that alternative without dismay. For the I , ignation of the Nohfe E irl at the head of his iajesty's government will not only be the death-blow t,o 11 the well-earned fame of his long political life, The Earl of MANSFIELD and the Larl of LIMERICK roso together. The former gave way, The Earl of LIMERICK then addressed the House ; hut in consequence of the low tone in which his Lordship spoke, it was impossible to catch the whole of a single sentence. We however understood him to say that it had le en his intention not to have offered one word to their Lord- Ships in the present stage of the Bill, but the extraordinary 8 atemente which had been made by the Noble Earl, im peratively called upon him to do so. The Noble Earl had stated that he Wan a friend to Catholic Emancipation ; hit little did he expect, at the present early hour, after a fmv short months only had. elapsed since the passing of that great measure, that the first Peer in the realm of the Cithelic persuasion, should have madc the extraordinary statements which he had done, awl have made that attack upon the Church which he br,a considered necessary. He (the Earl of Limerick) would venture to say, that not a single declaration to which the Noble Earl hof adverted had been falsified. The two Churchee of England and of Ireland were knit together, and one could not tall without the other. 'When such doctrines as had been advanced by the Noble Earl were broaght for_ ward, it was impossible to discuss them without meet warmth. The Noble Earl bad said that by the present Bill, end by Reform in the English House of Commons, which be made sure of having, there would be an in fusion of new Members, that all private - obkets and feelings would then be taken away, and th4t nothing would be - done hut what tended to the public good. But what, be would ask, would be the end of all thin ? Why, a repeal of the Union. And what was meant by that? The separation of England from Ireland. (The rest of the Noble Earl's speech it was utterly impossible for us to catch, and indeed he was generally inaudible thronghout.) The Earl of MANSFIELD bad been unwilling to trouble their Lordships upon the preser.t occasion, snore especially as the difficulty of finding f esh topics and freSh arguments had been much increased I y the very luminous speech which had been given last night by a Noble Fiend of his. The first question he would ask was, did this Bill contain any alteration of that principle, to which, in the former, he had been opposed ? His answer being in flat negative, his line of conduct was perfectly elcitr before him ; but as some Noble Lords who opposed the former measure had expressed their intention to allow this Bill to go into Committee, he thought it was his duty to examine the question again, the result was, that he was confirmed, and fully confirmed so every opinion which he then entertained.—( Cheers from the Opposition. ) ale could assure their Lordships, that if he had been con vinced upon inquiry that lie was in error, he would most frankly avow it, for he declared that he never would be led away from the expression of his honest opinion by the fear of having been inconsistest. If, however, such a change had not been the result of a deliberate conviction—if after declaring his intention to defend the constitution against such a tax as wits now to be made, he had yielded to the threats of dangers, the existence of which he did not admit, or to the snore specious arguments re specting the hope of resistance, h? would not have pre sumed to address the House. He had examined hie opinions , with a view of correcting the errors which he might have. committed, for be had been most astonished at the assertions* of a Noble Earl, that the provisions of the present Bill had removed his objections to the principle of the Bill. He had been certainly the more astonished at that Noble Lord's assertion, because he (Lord Mansfield) had assisted that Noble Lord in the examination of the Bill; but it seemed that he, as well as many others, had been mistaken as to the nature of that Noble Lord's objections, whose ,arguments, upon the present occasion, doubtless must have had more effect upon the minds of the public than upon his own. But whether the provi.ions of the Bill had removed that Noble Lord's former objections or not, he was the sole judge. He (Lord M assfield) could only say that his objections had not been removed. —(Hear, Lear.) He, for one, could give but very little credit to the assertion of those Noble Lords who wished the Bill to pass as a matter of expediency. He understood one Noble Lord to have said, that although the details of the Bill were very objectionable, the principle was one on which all Bills of Reform must be founded ; if that be the case, he must of course be sup posed to object to all principles of R-form. It was said, only let the Bill go into Committee, and that would be one point gained; but he begged to remind the House that it was a fact that the ancient Constitution of Par liament must be annihilated long before the Committee could agree upon a sufficient substitute for it.—(Cheers.) Noble Lord assumed that the principle of the Bill was approved unanimously by the people. He maintained there was not that unanimity. It was his opinion there was no necessity for a Reform, arising from any de ect in the representation ; nor did he think the effect of reject.. iiig the Bill would be to deprive the p-nple of their hopes. It they thought the people were persuaded their bap meat would be increased by a chance in the representation, and that this was an unjustifiable opinion, might not the House express their doubt of the justice of the necessity of yielding to public opinion ? Every charge should be ac companied with re isonable hopes of a real, not s peculative advantage, or why were they constitued a legislative power's It was one thing to admit the possibtlity of improvement, and another to admit the existence of an evil to which an immediate remedy was necessary. If he could say the country would increase in prosperity, as since 1792, he should be looking forward to a speculative contingency in stead of depending on experience. It was the duty of their Lordships to take all opinions into consideration, and to adopt them, if nut objectionable ; but no Reform could be desirable, if founded on injustice.—(Hear, hear, hear.) If the people could be persuaded there was not a great existing evil, they might be induced to believe that del :y was preferable to precipitate legisla tion. This was the Bill presented to Parliament. Was it bet, tar or worse than the preceding? Ministers acknowledged that the second was better than the first, and that improve. inent was owing to the interposition of their Lordships , It the present Bill were to he rejected, one less objetionable might be introduced. The House, in 1830, had negatived a motion of Reform, at well as a resolution that Reform was expedient. Was it to be supposed that the House had declared that to be necessary, which was inexpedient? If the necessity of Reform now existed, it must have arisen since 1830. It was the revolution of France that had operated on the great mass of the electors, and brought the country into the predicament in which it now stood. Ministers had chosen a most unfortunate time of excitement to bring forward their measure. Merl in office often gave promises, to whier a greater extension was given than they intended, and the Noble Earl had listened to those who had much wilder plane of inno vation than he imagined. The Bill had been described as tantamount to a revolution in Scotland, and in Ireland to a destruction of all the safeguards of Protestant ascendancy. The great mars of the property of the country was op posed to this Bill, and to those provisions which had he. n recommended to the House by those who had a numerical superiority. Ministers said that Reform was nects , ary from the state of the public mind, which was only saving that they had brought the public mind into that predicament from which it could not be extricated but by passing the measure. He would consult the wishes of the people, but not their opinions. Would their Lordships deviate from prudent policy, or from the course of justice, in order to meet the clamours of the people ? He believed the Bill to be incurably vicious, and it was poptk. lir from such fallacies that the people would be relieved from taxes. The House of Commons would be more democratic, the representatives lees dependent on the electns, and the Ministers more dependent on the control o f Parliament, that the church would be paid like the army, and the army be paid as little as possible; and finally, that the Sovereign would be reduced to the situa tion of the President of the United States. He believed that the House of Commons was sufficiently democratic and powerful, and he appealed to all who heard him, whether any Ministers were is independent of Parliament as the reformers assserted.—(Hear.) As it was admitted on all hands that there was a general wish for a moderate Reform, it became his duty, as well as that of other Noble Lords, to look at the opinions of forme eminent statesmen upon that subject. Then, what said Lord i ig w ht hen be observe d ° P d that, chile on the oppositio n side of the Home, the opirrone thoughtChaam ? that He it s aid, m of Noble Lords up on the sub j ect of Reform were very d & ren t to those which they entertained while upon the her side; —Lord Chatham bad said and maintained hat there was, and ought to be, a gr ea t difference between he practice and the tbory of the COUsti3lttina. :e s r i v t ie" —and he