The Sun. — London, England, 1804-04-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF PEERS, FRIDAY, APRIL 13. COV NS F were heard in continuation, relative to the Scotch Cross Appeal, Abercromby, v. Elphin ston Fleming. .Toproceeiraiairi on MOnday. Three, Private Bills were 'brought bp , from the Commons, 4 Sir J. W. ANDERSON , and ocher Gentlemen. The Pills upon the Table were forwarded in their several stages. The Order of the Day being read for going info . a Committee on the Priests' and, Deacons' Bill, Lord WAL , INGFIAM accordingly, ,took the Chair. . The Bishop of ST. 4SAPH, ptirstiant to his in_ timation on a fotavir evening, made.. a variety, of observations upon the subjed. . After -referring to the leading provisioner of the. Bill,. he proceeded to observe, that the Sacerdotal CharaCter in itself could not he done away by the _Secular Power ; the Sa. etrtiotum,Catholieum was that which no Secular Power could either give or take away ; .it was de_. rived from. a higher source. He• agreed that it was necessary and proper, that some exalt and de fined limits should be put to the age at which Ter_ sons should be admissible into -the sacred orders of Deacon and Priest.. In describing, to 'the Comalr_ tee the history of the. subjed, the learned Ptela:.e referred :to various EcclesiasticA Authorities, whereby it appeared, that some variations had obtained with reSped to the age at which persons were admissible into the Orders in question. In the earlier ages of the, Church,,.,Deicons.were . re quired to be of the age of 25 years, • and Priests, of that of 3o : this was about the_ fourth centtiry,— In some time after, by a Decree of the Council of Trent, persons of the age of 25,' were': admissible into Priests' Orders. After contending, for thein debilibity of ,the Sacred Charader, 'the Rev. Prelate obserited, altar. in cases where a radical, or original, defeet in the Ordination• existed, as in the case of Marriages improperly solemnized, &c. the Legi slature may tle'clare the- nullity of such proceedings and it was upon this. principle •chieflv that he agreed to the relevant provision of the Bill. The Duke of NORFOLX . expressed his concur rence in the principle laid down by the Reverend .Prelate, as to the indelibility of the sacerdotal dia. raker. RespeCting, this it was a maxim in the an cient Catholic Church, Nec heresis, nec npostncia • delis; but with respe.t to the subjed, there were one or two considerations which stru:k him as ma- - aerial. A person may innocently. become subjed to, the, enactment cf the Bill, as in,.the . instio,ce where - he was, tlirciftgli misinformation, or other. eau'ses,, led to suppose that he ,was either - 23 or 24. years of age, when in fadit may not, be so. There, were cases also in 'which the Bishop - who ordained may not be 'wholly exempt from blame ; and it may not be unworthy of consideration what degree of panitlunent should be incurred- by a Diocesan who shduld so infringe upon an AE} of . Parliament... •- - The BishOi'of St. AS-API! explained-The case adverted to by the .Noble Duke . was one of these, he conceived, - within the contemplation of the Bill. With respeCt to the latter consideration, Bishops were, as thelaw . now stood, liable to be ciklled to account should they at in violation of an Aetof parliament. . • • The leading provision of the Bill, which enaas that no person shall be admissible to the sacred orders of Deacon and Priest, unlesi he shall .have com pletely attained the 23d or . 24th yeJr of his age respedively, .&c. was then agreed to. Af:er some - further observation on the part of the Rev.-Prelate and Noble Duke abovenlentioned, the remaining. provisions of the - Bill, with a few verbal amendments, were.agreed to. A Clause was inserted, on the Motion' of the Bishop of. Sc. AsApti, for the c:insidcetition uf the Righrsi, with respect to this Bill, 01 the : Vozn)0:)- litans of the respedive pirts of the United I,,:ing;. The House then resumed, and ordered the Bill to be reported on Niondhr. The Report of the 'Volunteer Bill was...then re.- ceived pro forma. • ' - Lard AUCKLAND observed, -that in . conse quence of 'the tmavoidable delay of printing. the Bill, he did.not think the Report could be consi dered on so early a day as was at first proposed.— He .seemed to think not before Tuesday. • The Bill was then, with the Amecdtnents, On the Motion of Lord WALSINCHAM, ordered to-be printed; ' - The House immediately adjourned till. TWO o'Clock on Monday, when sonic Judicial Business stands. upon Order. HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, APRIL ,13. SIR. JOHN NElvrorsT moved to discharge the Order for . taking into cotiiideration.- the Ilchester Yettion Petition, in order to fix it for a future day, Which Motion, :tier stnne conversation b,t•tneen Mr. J—GLAHAM, Mr. BALDwIN, and Mr. Fitt:Ey ADDINGT:)N, was negatived. • • Mr. J. GRAHAM piesented, a: Petition horn cer. tain Voters or Ciiippcnham, respeeting the. right of voting in that, Borough, which was ordered :to .he taken into consideration on the same day as - the for.' zner Petition. Mr. SecretarY YORKE, after referring to the Order of the 28th of March, giving leaVe to bring in a Bill to suspend the operation' of the Artily of Re_ serve Ati, observed, that it had been more conve nient to bring in rwo- Bills, one for Gre'at iiiiiain; and one for kle therefore, moved to dis charge the former Order, iln4.for leave to bring in a Bill, or Bills, respe4ing tbfi Leave'given. Lir. Secretary YURKZ afterwards broug7li in die Bill for suspending the, Army of 'Reserve Aft in Gicat Britain, which was.read a first tinv, and or dered to be read a 'second time on Tuesday, and to be printed. MILITIA OFFICERS. Mr. Secretary YORKE ' called the attention of the House to an Aft of last Session, for the more speedy and effeftuaily completing the Officers of the Militia, which being limited in it 4 duration to the .. . . 25th of Mlech in :the present.year, had, through inadvertency, 'hein.suffered to expire. It appear ing • ., ... ing howev - erAsohk;ely necessary to reirive and con . tinue that AI, he therefore 'moved for leave to bring in a Bill for that purpose.. Leave given. MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES. The CHANCELLOR of the XCHEQUER moved the Order of...the Day, for a Committee of Sup.. riy, , and to refer to - the said Committee the Esti mates resreaing the Militia Pay, Clcathing, and Al_ lowances, , and also the Estimate of Secret Services ; which were ordered. ' The• House having resolved itself into a Corn initree'of Supply, : • The CHANCELLOR of the -ExcHtots ER .mooed the tollOwini Resolutions.- :and Sums,. which - were severally agreed to. • • To nuke provision for the Pay and Cloathing of die Militiaof Great, Britain, for the Allowances - Adjutants .and Scrjeaur.:M4jois of ditto. and also foT the -Militia of Ireland and Subaltern'OffieerS of ditto. 7 - secret Service Money. • . • - -,C. iso,ooo' Suths awarded to be paid.lsy the British.Gtiverri. ment, in pursuance of. the .7th Article of the Treaty with Ameiica -- • .- 412,000 To make good Exchequer Bills issued last year upon the Aids of 1804 • - I T,OO-o,o , )O Trustees of the 13ritish Museum- - - - • zOOO The - House having'respiocbd; the Report was .or- dered_.t6.l3e . cOmmittee to, sit again .on• Monday. IRISH MILITIA - AUGMENTATION BILL. Mr. G . RE NVILLE observed, that several Gen. • tlemen had upderstood that both the Bills were .not • to be read a third time on the same day, and as some who were not nolr present wished- to speak upon the Bill for augmenting, the Irish. Militia, he therefore proposed, if 'the Right Fin. Gentleman (Nlr.• Secretary N 7 ottxt , ) had no .objedion, to post pone the third reading:of that Bill till some day next week. Mr. SHERIDAN thought the priority ought to , be given to the Bill ,for augmenting 'the Militia of Ireland, as they ought. to augment first,. before they drew away the existing Militia, since it would be' vet) , preposterous it the Bill for accepting the offs was to be agreed to, 'and' then the Bill for augmenting, to be negatived. • Mr. Secretary YORKE obterved, that the dress — upon Ills Majesty's. Message only spoke.of enabling His Majesty to accept the offers of the Irish Militia, but took no notice of the augmenta tion ; the former, 'therefore, of course had the priority. The Bill was then ordered to be read a third time on Monday. • RUSSIAN MEDIATION. , Mr. Secretary YjßKE.said, if there were any Gentlemen who did not expeCt the Bill to come on to day, he had - no, objection to postpone the third • reading till Monday.. Mr. FOX said, he wished for an answer 16 a question respeaing.a subjett he had formerly advert ed to, namely, a Russian Meaiation, which, if it' was satisfaCtory„ might save him and. the ,House good deal of trouble. He had had an intention to bring forward a Motion upon the subjett very soon after the Recess; he bad however heard reports of some important transaEtions going on with Russia, which, if true, might form a considerable objection to the produetion of Papers. If he received a satisfaCtory , answer upon this srubjea, he should avoid making any Motion upon the subjeCt. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was glad of jhe opportunity of explaining what had been rather sever6y animad Vejli d upon by the Hon: Gentleman on. a former occasion. 'He stated on a former day, that there was every tvishon the part -of the Ministers to put the House in posses sion of all the information in their power, but that there . were tibjcetions which might render it highly ineipedient to lay'any Papers respeding the aubjett before the House. lie then stated two . objeCtions ; the one arising from circumstances existing. at that time, and the other from 'subSequent circumstances, which might still prevent His Majesty's Ministers fror?.. • inaking•any -ComMunication to the House,- , . these' latter circumstances still existed. Whether an y. Negotiations were subsisting with Russia, he was su re neither the Hon. Gentleman nor the House would expeCt to be informed;' nor, he was con. winced, .would the Hon. 'Gentleman, if he knew of th . c. - cirCumstanceS which still- existed, press any Motion upon. the subjeff: He assured the Eliin. Geotleman he had been as explicit. as he could, con. s i ste u t ly with . his duty. 'Mr. FOX said he was satisfied with the explana, ti , ,n of the. Right Hon. 'Gentleman, and shonid, therefore wave making any M•ition 46n• the sub. • e g. • 'DEFENCE OF 'FLU COUNTRY. -" • - . Whilst upon his legs, Mr,kox-gave notice of his intention to make a Mbtion, on Frida , next, vela. 'live: in general to 'what had been done for the De fence of the Country. / • CEYLON.. Mr. JOHNSTONE moved fora derailed Account of the Receipts Sand Disbursements of the . Island of Ceylon, from the .time it came into our pasessipn to the latest period to whiCh the same could be made up.--Ordered. IRISH CIJRRtNCY. Mr.,CORRy said, ht.had yesterday begged leave to pOstponehis intended Motion, respelling the Circulation of Ireland, 011 this day, it being the wish of His Majesty's Ministers to wait for the latet communications from that Country. No com munications having, however, been received this day, he should 6gain postpone that Motion, till Monday, NIILITIA. Lord FOLKESTONE wished to know, if any use had been Made of the Bill for the more iffeftually Ofilcering the Militia ?. as, if not, it might be a reason against its revival. Mr.' Secretary YORKEYORKE replied, that whatever might have been thz. use made of the Bill, it was necessary to revive it, in order that the Militia might be properly OffiCered. The Returns cif t-he number of Officers appointed under the be easily obtained. BUDGET. The CHANCELLOR of the ExctiEquur! gavc Lice, that he ...la - Oa, on Wednesday zennight move. the, Ways and Means for raising the Supply of the Year.. IRISH MILITIA. Mr.. Secretary YoIKE moved the third reading of Hthe Irish Militia Offers Bill. Mr. KINNAIRIY made several objeaionslo the Bill and to . the mode of augmenting .the Militia, which, as it was-kept on foot at the expence of both KingdoinTi - ottrirtint7fOr the defence of both. He concluded by .urging, the 'necessity - oe . - - ettergetic measures at theptesefit crisis. kir: LEE expiessc'S hiuiself strongly.' in 'favour , .f an Imperial. Militia, . conceiving thal thire Was: . no sntm,d 'reason for.lneking,up fi'certaip number of ILZili is in - . nglatid or 'in Irekr .. .cl'e.xclu9ively. - •He thOtight that all upon' this sUbjea . ought to be done away, zs so lring.ai . ,the, Militia of the two Countries remained (fiitinti, -so long Ireland was -deprived of a part cif 'these advantages which ought to result froth. the' 'Union.' He stated that :besides the 6,000 of the Irish Militia who appear cd in the paper 'on ,the Table . , he understood that :three Regiments more had since., volunteered their .services in the same way. _:• 11,41VKES repeated his firmer objeftions to `the fneasure i -for which he conceived that no neces. - sity : had been, made out, nor could he perceive thAt : by t.aking away to,ooo Militia from Ireland,- any • .number of men could be got for general, service. .. Mr: KiNNAIkD eXpiitiOed. . Mr. WINDH4M reserved his opinion on" .the general subjea, until the Bill which had been,pOst ported shoUld be,brought forward . . What he rose for in the present instance, was• to throve . - Out An idea, which he thought necessary for him on this tic— casino, lest he be thought to acquiesce ire' sentiments from which he differed, although his general opinion was in unison with the Hortourable Gentleman who uttered.them. What he meant applied to that which was commonly called the Love of our Country ; by that he neither meant that which embraced the general interests of the world, as they might be viewed by some, nor that contraded policy which was adopted by others, although he admitted that some of the best principles that a man cherished in society, arose from local attachment for the COuntry, as the particular spot that gave him birth ; this at_ tachment, althoughlocal and contraded, led to many generous,ads, but still he would not : have it ,pressed too far, such as to make . a - mad attend:to the parti: cular interest of Susiex instead of Kent,_or any. thing of that nature ; he wished .for something more ,Li beral, and that Gentlemen, should take a:View orthe true interests of the British Empire, not of England in contradistinaion to Ireland, 'nor of Ireland as different from England, but-of the general and unit. ed interests of both ; not that he Wished to be 4inderstOod to bind himself to any broad general principle applicable so all cases:.of this nature, : for be knew" how many virtuous . sentiments originated in What might properly be called local 'prejudices ; for attachment to the spot 'which gave .'a man birth, or that in. which his ancestors had made great achievements, or the like, were of that charader,. and in one' sense was the love of one's Country attog•-ther, for that was -twprefer its interest to' that of the rest of mankind. He. therefore wished, that in judging of the interest of the British Empire, Gentlemen would, consider 85 much as they could the, case of England and of Ireland as one and the same thing. *He. thotight it necessary' to make these few observations, at the same time that he retained his . opittion on the general military system which Ministers had adopted for both parts of the Empire, • Mr. Secretary YORKE approved of every sylla.. ble of what was uttered to-night by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, upon the sub_ jet of the love of our Country, and he deprecated the prance of endeavoUring to set off one part of the Empire against the other in interest, for that . was direaly hostile to the true spirit of the Union between Great Britain and Ireland, an event from whiCh he expected great benefits to arise, as we had felt from the Union between England aod SeLit. l an d. He then proceeded to defend the Bill;now• before the. House; and 'in the course 'of which he adverted to all the arguments which had been urged against it, and maintained the propriety of the measure altogether upon general principles. Lord FOLKESTONE objected' to the general prin.. ciples of the Bill. • Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed upon the.lVii, litia system in general, of which the present mea. sure was a branch.--Re said he bad no intention'of coffin.); in question the purity. 'of the motives of those Gentlemen Who .had, entered into certain Re. Solutions on the subjea of the Militia voluoteering to go out of their' own -Country into anothef pate of the Empire. He considered those' NO:lilelden and Gentlemen as persons of pure : honour and fed integrity, who -aaed, from the most unqtte.s tionably, virtuous feelings, whether they were cos_ . red•in judgment or not. He said he should. give, a vote to night different from'that _Which:het:iv; on a fOrmer Occasion, upon this Bill, and, that arose from an u:lderstanding,that no provision was at a ll in:.. tended to be made for .On inicrelmnge of the Militia of the two Countries ;, and he trusted, at alt.events, if any part of the Militia of Ireland was to be called out of that Country, they Would not he• re placed by foreigners.. He' took occasion to ob serve upon the Union between this Country and Ireland.—He thought that measure had not been fair ly treated, it had not yet had 'any thing like a fair trial. Those who planned it, and trom whose ',talents and exertion both Countries, must justly; expected much. for. the general advantage of both parts of the Empire, had not hitherto_been able to ad, as could have been wished, and until some Measures came froM those eminent per Sons according to .their the heir sense of the utility of .the Union,.and true spirit of it as a measure :of general policy for the interest of the Empire, the• Union could not' be said to have been' fairly tried. He must be allowed also to : say it 'appeared to him to be itnpolitic'to bring forward from day to day those measures which applied only to particular objeas, and the pro Visions of which were of a local and temporary nature.-- S He to see some broad,.general and permanent System adopted equally applicable to each part of mile United Empire, so as to consolidate the in. retests, conciliate the hearts, and meet the wishes of both sides:; but he could not help saying that a great (Ica, of the advantages the Empire might • hive deeiVed from the good wishes of leading men, had • been done away by The firebrands of ". discord of late employed in Ireland. Mr. Secretary YORKE exnlained what he had for• merly said on the subjeet of the Army of Reserve. : Mr. FOX said, that his reason for rising now was, to: take notice of what had just past hotn an Honourable 'Member behind him (Sir JOHN Navr- PORT),- 'He was glad he had now understood the Honourable Member as to what- he had said on former night, for he had thought he had cast refie c- ' 'tiOns on those Noblemen and Gentlemen who signed :the Resolu'tion alluded to, relative to the Militi a •goingotteof this Country.—They were charaders of the highest class, and for whom he professed .to .have' very warm attachment, and as he now un der• stood, the Hon, Member. did not mean to express himself in the way he (Mr.. Fox) then undersood be had done, all he Would-say was, he was sorry. he had misunderstood hint, and he begged his pardon. As to the Debate of to-night, it had, as on sotne Other occasions, been fashionable to go into extrae neous matter ; but he should not follow the exampl e ' there were many plots stated which he should noc discuss ; but, on the point of the love of his Country, . .he must say that he-was: between the two extremes, neither desirous. that local attachment should checi; general sentiment, nor that general sentiment should wholly destroy local attachment. ;It was true ° Jac . Parliament,' as such, must consider the two Con' tries, England and Ireland, united .in interesc s t g one individual Country, but while they were lating on a iVleasure so local in its nature, as tha t ,° the :Militia was, they must consider what were t he dispositions of , the People, of each Country, possiblrparticolar spots ineacli Country. So that the House was not, in this .case, to •consider the At of Parliament upon general principles, vvitlh' uc regard to local attachment ; and here came - differenee- between the friends and the of the Union; the one wished to diminish, the other- to increase - these local attachments,. and prejudices arising ,out of them ;‘ nor was it, to be at 'once cured. It was true the Aft of I Th ° , declared the two Countries to be joined as one, b ut A t hieTr, feelings;or 4 o r t h h e . s . it was not by Afts of Parliament, but bytabirs tha t men felt; _it was not by the Statute of the 6th °: o George; that men regulat ed f were . not •which we distinguished between an Englishman an d , Scothtnan e or between either of them and an man'; could ru les by Oley'change a.man's pref.:.rence .tor the County of Sussex to that of Kent. These thine depended upon habits, which could not be bas t '" done away... But there was a part of this Bill that appeared to him to require amendment°. ;If we. lotOugh i t into England' to,ooo Irish Militiq e should : have among them a great number . °` Catholici, they weteali under the discipline of rl' a Mutiny Bill, and chiefly. if ,not ..wholly Protestant Officers. It was a part of Military discipline t ° oblige itierito go to Church—One wool , ' not thin that this power would be used for the , purpose 1 -) oppression, and he hoped nor, but he sohmirred th ac either a' clause should be introduced into this Bill, , else a new •Bill should be brought in, in which sion should be made, by which these C a tholics r • should not be ,compelled to follow the Prot efita : form of warship against their scruples of-not hing L,. P.11a9N3 observed there ' 4(35 11°t ta in the Articles of War by which they werec „. ) re e pelled to do this. He the n p r o cee ded to e on the Union of the two Countries, Geniietl-ld seemed to consid e r I re l an d as if i t were. another a remote Country beyond the Atiantic-ewher' as the true way to consider that Matter was to consioe r the Channel between England and Ireland as a mer e Canal, by which a Conithunication was to he CO stantly kept up between them. Upon the measure now before the House, he Jvas a friend to it, n °f , could he 'omit this opportunity of observing Ella ` or Ireland was never better taken care of by se a land , than at the present time ; .which *as 1101 thc case in every instance in the time of 'the late A` lle ministratione, the particulars of which, althoug h could, he would forbear to state. G entle Mr. WM. SMITH observed, that Irish G ent ,..- men appeared to himao aecede44. ► this Measure uii"°f' 1r the idea that itwas to be reciproc a l, an d that s i ni c offers were to 'be made by the Eeglish h idea, if indulged,' might g o : ,r wished •the •.House to consid er to w h at length should ~not try any thing of this hind tv: out a -general revision of the Militia . -I) , t ac and. an alteration of a permanent nature °r o a a'e future,..but all the present Militia must be a co uld ed .to remain - He though t . Ib , as . they are; for Parliamen t Li Oori net, 'cortsiSteotly with its' . honour, operat e D i ll • thertrhy an ex postfiido taw. He- thought d i/ r ose objeoiOnable- on 'the ground that it would i r ' c of thee price _of Sphstitutes, which was a rag' ( ea .aceonnt of mete being.unwilling to 'etrter wher e ee ll, • nathee.OftheseiViee was extended. But ilbe w ith considering the Chafaeter of the Goiernmen t , Goa which we had torOntend, not only now, but • Id veroment which France rujght assume if they' 0 0 be ea happy as ropart with its present head; 'ffi t , l e u le l) of that 'idea' he thottalit it was well worth the ' NI. d or • , t a ' the-House, to consider Whether we should n `,,e 00 . #4, a different system for our defence in future , a ' vstea l f hitherto We had been indeed happy in th at Lord PRoav was against the Bill, general °bier." Colonel CRAUFO.RD entered:.into gene._ ea oose vations on • the Bill, and proceeded to Pr°l_,,, to Amendment, the objed of which lie said w el d i c put an end to that state of deliberation in which aet' to wh preient Bill placed the Militia. He was a • expatiate upon, the detail of his Amendment,. the Mr: Secretary YoRRE called to ./ On 001, ground, that the detail of the Measure sh 010• , • take place until it had been 'moved. The SPEAKER decided 'accordingly. Ar e PYTCHEE opposed the Bill. 5 ° Ice P General LoFTus approved of the Bill he SoldierP •• in. terms of:high commendation 'of the Irish uf resu lc and said, he thought great advantag es wo "'cool front the interchange of the Militia of the t w° Mr , tries. • • After 'a few . words froth Lord Eus-roNt the House divided, 1 00 . For the Bill, - Mr. HUTCHINSON, an...,4MiallaAGG'''' • WHITBREAD, 4-e • Against it, - ajOr:tY , ,~ 1 1