The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-30 00:00:00

1/I `ged• No doubt II:ey effected a saving in the end by ereir-e. by hindering the- men from becoming rs- -faed yers well, but cs the fret berCme evident to the people, the whole charm was osen, and numbers thronged to the spot, and thus threw upon the proprietors a burden more than the y d bear. While he was upon his legs, he would take opportunity for of expressing his deep sympathy Majesty' s the embarrassing position in which her 'St jesty's advisers were at present placed. The circumstancestroublesome, under which they acted were difficult and thoublesome, but he was glad to see, that not only in to relieve country but even in others, there was a disposition srelieve the suffering people of Ireland as much as i)° aible • He had received large quantities of corn-meal from 1e d Philadelphia and Canada, for the use of the Irish. •Le took that opportunity of stating these facts, and ac s them in public. He entirely concurred in o:teet otbostehr:ations of the Noble Marquis, who opened the :nicarteei,anth(Latthiet. was a very perilous experiment to hold people of any country, more especially those ter ra ] l prospect of a certain remedy, by law, destitution. He would no longer detain their l e a d hiPs by any further observations ; and, in conclu rl n _ ,he would uree upon the Legislature the gravest sent ide ration befor e p ass i ng suc h a measu r e as the pre one into a permanent law. at:4'rd STANLEY perfectly concurred in the argu prpl had just fallen from the Most Reverend he ate, who had just sat down, to a certain , extent, but iev e d most that this measure was fraught with the m 4X" dangers. He was not surprised that the remarks a to .'" e Noble Marouis, who brought forward this mea he ( e i , had been smile what misunderstood. It was not . to e h "led that this was an emergency of a most trying a.aracter, an mergency which, though it was only hem tr lTeara ne , , of a temporary nature—temporar, wir e d, it wool I be—but yet it was evidently fraught it, th "sequences which must last, to say the least of th at r "gh a series of years ; and he on eg . their feelings of commisseration had been excited, ig)i!haPS, in too great a degree. There had beena g,eeelaitgbsreaking up of old feelings, old associations, old iteetices, and old principles ; and it was, therefore, f !.° all necessary that they should not suffer their a hould „ me to be too - much excited, a but that they and to it with sober judgment, th e a cool discretion. He was perfectly aware, that at le .present moment the Government had facilities for thg isl ating which had never been enjoyed before; but, as most Reverend Prelate had justly stated, they must bit car e th at they took no step which they might be ceed to r etrace. It appeared to him that the Noble had on th e cross benches (the Earl of St. Germans) "ad taken a most inadequate view of the question, and great as he conceived the difficulty to be, and great as Would be the mischief from granting an unlimited relief from thepublica that funds it w during t e h i only t e m p t e o n i r a p r o y r d a r i s y t , r e h s s e , and he tr ut. e tehosught that th e pecuniary portion was the least that net the subject, the course of which was so beset by neat perils. If that had been the only principle involved, e question would have had no greater opponent than ',, tt tself. The Noble Earl had talked of lid. in the C r ad, but he knew in one instance where ahiu 7 no, svas a rate made for twelve months, of seven o f bs in the pound, and in another of a rate th e "`,T?ty shillings in the pound. It its present shape, pivi..-°?„ ll calculated rather to impede the power of 14 a l? all-door relief than to facilitate it. When his insufficient had stated that the workhouses were quite relief, ent . for the accommodation of those who required h i __no did not recollect that there was already an Act au.7l"estence which provided a power for increasing the k heu lo es r and enlarging the accommodation in the wor- Ilandre. Whenhe talked of there being a space of eight be tried square miles on which this experiment was to and h° and when he talked of the extent of the unions,. th at himself was ready to acknowledge that au union ei g h w as so extensive that some portions of it were forty wee tbmiles from the workhouse, but in noticing this he ca rri Oatid to observe that if this measure were to be elation fat, they must provide a sufficient acc.omAnaoe gays for the poor, the provisions of thi . s r t " the thapteriod oeportunity of giving a limited relief re o d of two months. But this practically imp.fi it Wer "6 workhouse test was to be applied. And is of a e ss e t ° he applied, they must take ade lanTituodation, and the whole of the property of e quate meaia lr Ire only ( : ) , u ght to be rated for the relief of the poor—not l and.h_e Property of the landlord, but of the ten9t s h o; landlords e w ou o l f d l n r e e v l never be a party to unduly overweighing t e Property h ad • and. He was not prepared to deny that al so it its duties . but if it had its duties it had th e , ' s r ights, and if the rights were not allowed, they and could not expect that it should fulfil its duties ; oth er ' i s order to obtain the one they must allow the to *lt was perfectly evident that if this measure were velrse effected —and he sincerely trusted that the Go • desunient would re-consider its opinions—they must en it: our to reduce the size and increase the number of la r ilui ens- The unions in the country were as much too p3e as those of the districts were too small. At the e rsi s i ent time the landlords absolutely /aid two-thirds Po =it rates, and left the tenant to pay the other. In p aa It had been represented that the landlords of Ireland tr uth was unlimited powe r over th e i r t enan ts, but the was that the tenants possessed a far greater power m et' the landlords than the landlords did over the tthliaeodapneetrst'y °f the measure were to be rendered effectual, taxation must be rendered commensurate with the the country.—(Cheers.) The Noble Marquis of the leeived that it was necessary to bring the posyer tikeh ° °r•daw Commissioners to bear on the collection e rates, but he (Lord Stanley) did not conceive that uardiansad ever been guilty of imprudence in the j. lll6gi ment of their duties. He asked how they could ' E tVe th e rates o f th e coun t r y to a body . of farmers, included w hose holdings, 20 or 30 of them, might be in a good English farm—such a body of men, with the power t Of levying two-thirds or three-fourths of the rie Upon the landlord ? It was said by the Noble 14arquis, a in his opening statement. that the number of small holdings must be diminished. One remark fell from him in regard to another means of reined that the plough must be substituted for the u BPade remedy, t he did not concur with his Noble Friend near him hi thinking that the effect of that improve kent would be to diminish the demand for labour. The effect of introducing science into a g riculture would be to in crease the necessity of increased labour and employ lent. B u t t h ere was a d ema nd directly made upon the llt had been said that they must increase the size of the r ir • ar ° 1 8 , the number of their servants, and the amount of e a i r wages. That looked very well in theory, but how dit succeed in the hands of the Government when they attempted their improvements upon the model • tt° •—(Laught er .) Why, for fourteen years her Ma- esty's Ministers had used their utmost power, and had faSled to remove one tenant. In fact, they were all be e.onie tenant s at w ill , not paying one penny that rent ; r id the most ludicrous part of the whole was when aims, wh o h ad resigned their lands, wereappointed c are -taker s • they became care-takers in a Pnec ul iar sense of word, and refused to leave the land au r i P t. 4 Y one farthing of remuneration. Such was the re fs, What then n had the Government been able to cle f heir property? He admitted that the number o tZ' holdings ought to be diminished. But how was oh it ur to be done? They must diminish the motives which a l u , ed them to cling to these holdings. But here the h r e), --en ts of the Noble Marquis had failed; for while bedßill, that so and so would be the concomitants of the Lord' i rgot to introduce to the attention of their t* • - u i Ps, those means by which the effects he antici aletilded were to be produced. There was once vial house in that Bill which permitted the pro laud"' ( If relief for a man in the occupation of h av That fortunately was struck out, and that would i o e the effect of reducing the number of small hold eugsf But yet a man with eight or nine acres of land eal a Manage to subsist himself unless he had what they h e le d a heavy family. Yet there could be no hope that thr Could employ the labourer, who was necessarily had o wn upon the world. A strange notion, oever, been begotten in this country, that it was h the w duty proprietor to give increased emplomt in the im s'rovernent of his estates. Those who said so did no t underst an d t h at t h ose estates were di v id e d out i t s to farms of t en or t we l ve acres e ach, and that al he should attempt to lay out his estates anew, to st raighten the divisions, he would be resisted, aye, even to the death, if one man believed he would lose by that only half a cow's grass. Such a position of the landlords evinced the impression and the expectation to be most Utopian and monstrous. These were the two points which he wished to impress upon their Lordships. They must give the owners of property greater means of Managing and improving that property which was their Own—they must make it the interest of the occupier to k eep down the poor-rates, by placing him in a similar Position with the landlord in reference to the payment of those rates. The Noble Earl (St. Germans) gave notice of some amendments which he intended moving in Committee. He (Lord Stanley) concurred ; those amendments, and would support them; out he wou ld assure the Government that their Lord lash;iPs would not go into Committee on this Bill with any ;' 2 B Position but to relieve a most difficult and a most in ,"rleate situation. He hoped most earnestly that all the 'enefits which the friends of the measure might antici at? would result from it, and that it would prove ulti mately a great permanent good in Ireland. Ea rl te DESART expressed his satisfaction at the man• the i n which h e r Majesty's Government had introduced Bill, and felt extremely grateful to the people o 4 1 ,1, 1a nd,who had come forward to relieve the destitution 'sae people of Ireland. dik ora BROUGHAM did not think they were in a con- A - ° ll at present to legislate safely upon the question. t r o `emporary measure would be safer than a permanent m e asur e . He thought it would be safer to limit r te e h asu re to one year. He thought it might be necessay bu t l." an enactment at the expiration of that period; 0 „" " 0 defied their Lordships to repeal the law when of th ey h ad passed it. It would be found that two-thirds f s•otaitheahifurden - would be thrown on the landlords instea . d . o would ts . lie thought that, great as the responsi w b o il u i l ty d he me of doing nothing, all that responsibility Isikililavluch • 4ctinueiir.leityjest compared with the risk which the public 8 111 r h o r ie w d h th av e e to encounter, if they sento occupier. whole burden on the eezi:iiesdhhiistaonly objection, and throughout thedwhole - se of the debates the arguments he ha i . a d Practicable. that this ' Bill would be found to be im lhelain s , was then read a second time without a division. Ts, alarqui a Lordrstatement of LANSDOWNE said, that lie pro e at this Bill should be committed on next Tuesday. ent iti MID NTEAGLE hoped that when they w ors • mittee on the Bill, that there would be some Bill was adMinistered. as to the exact mode in which it was to be After a few words from the Earl of FITZWILLIAM text. ordered to be committed on Tuesday .The Land dihi edP y roperty Bill was read a second time, and seas Lor o rdered t o b e comm i tted on Thurs d ay next. ()cl oc k . s then adjourn e d, a t Half-past Twelve ~., .. HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 29. The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o • cs cc NEW WRIT. On the motion of Mr. TUFNELL, a new writ was ord.: red for the county of Galway, in the room of the late T. B. Martin, Ess.q. REPOR i'S. The reports on the following Bills were brought up and agreed to : Claridge's Patent Asphalte Company. Colchester, Stour 'Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Railway (Extension from Lavenham to Bury St. Ed muncr4 Colchester, Stour Valley, Sudbury, and Halstead Rail way (Stour Navigation Purchase). Manchester Markets. Scottish Equitable Life Assurance Society. Wolverhampton Gas. Wolverhampton Rates. LORDS' AMENDMENTS. The Lords' Amendment to the Ipswich Gaa Bill were further considered and agreed to. TP IRD READINGS. The Hartlepool West Harbour and Dock (Dock Ex tension) Bill was read a third time and passed. On the motion of Mr. GREENE, it was agreed that the order made on the 23d of February last, for re ferring the Leeds Waterworks Bill to the Committee of Selection, be read and discharged.—That the Bill be withdrawn. That leave be given to bring in a Bill "to amend and enlarge the provisions of an Act passed in the first year of the reign of her present Ma jesty, intituled, An Act for the better supply ing with water the town and neighbourhood of Leeds, in the west riding of the county of York,' and for more effectually supplying the said town and neigh bourhood with water." That Mr. William Beckett and Mr. Aldam do prepare and bring it in. That the said Bill be referred to the Examiners of Petitions, who shall report whether any other standing orders apply to this Bill than those which were provecho have been com plied witifibefore the Examiners upon the petition for leave to bring in the Leeds Waterworks:Bill; and that the Exa miners have leave to sit and proceed on Tuesday next. That the order made on the 22d day of April list, re ferring the petition of the " Trent Navigation Company," against the Ambergate, Nottingham, and Boston and Ea , tern Junction Railway (Alteration of Line and Branches to Nottingham) Bill, to the Committee on the Bill, be discharged. That the petition be withdrawn. On the motion of Mr. M. PHILIPS, it was ordered that it be an instruction to the Committee on tho Man chester Corporation Waterworks (power to sell to the Manchester and Salford Waterworks Company), and the Manchester Corporation Waterworks (power to pur chase the Manchester and Salford Waterworks) Bills, that they have leave to consolidate the said Bills into one Bill. HEALTH OF TOWNS. Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented a petition from the workmen employed on the Great Western Rail way in favour of the Health of Towns Bill. Viscount EBRINGTON presented similar petitions from South Molton, and from the journeymen tailors of London. RATE-PAYING CLAUSES. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented petitions from Nor wich praying for the repeal of the rate-paying clauses of the Reform Bill. EDUCATION. The HoN. MEMBER also presented petitions from parishes near Manchester against the Government plan of education. LIGHTHOUSES. Sir A. LEITH HAY presented a petition from Peter head against the present Lighthouses Bill. AGRICULTURAL TENANTS. Mr. DEEDES presented petitions from Margate, and other parts of Kent and the Isle of Sheppey,in favour of the Agricultural Tenant Right Bill. LAMBETH-BRIDGE. Dr. NICIIOLL stated that, in the discussion which recently took place on the subject of the proposed Lam beth-bridge, he said that Sir Samuel Brown, one of the parties interested in that undertaking, was a member of a mercantile house engaged in the manufacture of chain cables, and that his object in the promotion of the undertaking was no doubt to dispose of some of his chain cables. He had since received a letter from that gentleman, denying that he was actuated by any such motive. He felt it his duty to make this statement to the House, although at the same time he must express that he did not consider it a very grave charge to make against the member of a mercantile house. Sir DE LACY EVANS said that at the time the statement was made he thought it most uncalled-for. FOREIGN WINES. Dr. BOWRING gave notice, that on this day fort night, he would call the attention of the House to the desirableness of reducing the duties on foreign wines. PROPERTY-TAX FOR IRELAND. Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD gave notice that, on the motion for going into Committee on the Railways, Piers, and Harbours (Ireland) Bill, he would move a re solution, that it is expedient to impose a tax on the pro perty of Ireland to construct public works in that country. SCOTCH REGISTRATION BILL. Mr. DENNISTOUN. presented a petition from Glas gow against the Scotch Registration Bill. IRISH DISTRESS. Lord SANDON presented a petition from Liverpool, which stated that by the official returns the number of Irish paupers who' had immigrated was 150,000. only 40,000 of whom had emigrated, while the rest were wandering about the town; the petitioners prayed that the House would take their case into consideration. ENCOURAGEMENT OF EMIGRATION. Lord LINCOLN gave notice that he should move for an humble address to her Majesty, p ra yi ng h er to ta k e into her gracious consideration some means by which emigration and colonisation might be effectually pro moted. t e most happy to devote the best attention that lay in his power to a consideration of the circumstances of such cases. year 1831 a Commission was appointed toinquire into this subject, and he would trouble t he House b y readin g portion7aiiouisof ha Coat t ofthe which ( i had , ei t, uri u u resulted r7til k,e tla; then read extracts from the report, which al • hs o tracti . ei th f e rom tl,e Exche quer, and that means shoul d be take n to, avert tills evil.) national iege d th that tuns moneys wtth had been sanctiona And what were the sig natures to this nocument? The d out the first was a Noble Lord, late a Member of that House, now no longer among them, Lord Congleton ; the next was the Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury ; the third was Sir James Graham ; the fourth w as Sir James Kent ; the fifth was a late Chancellor of the Ex chequer, the Right Hon. Francis Baring—(Hear and laughter)—and the last signature was that of the Hon. Member for Coventry, Mr. Ellice. Now, he ventured to say that six more respectable signatures on the pre sent question could not be introduced into that nous e If the accounts of the different departments were made out according to one form, or that each of them could be easily carried into the general balance-sheet of the re ceipts and expenditure of the country, they would come properly under the revision of Parliament; time would be saved, mistakes avoided, and unnecessary or ex travagant expenditure obviated, as each item would, as now, have to be voted by Parliament before it could be liquidated. In the report of the Com mittee on Naval and Military Reform, presented in 1831 and 1832, they were informed that the receipts and ex penditure of the different public departments of France were made out according to one uniform plan—(Hear, hear)—and that, as they were all formed on one model, they were easily blended in one general whole, in the periodical balance-sheet of the finances of the country. He did not know whether any separate entries, OR this plan, were kept at the Treasury. When he was connected with that department of the Government, none were kept having the receipts and the expenditure relating to the different departments, andlar range d un d e r diff e rent heads, but it was quite clear that the public accounts ought not to exist as they did in this coun try. The mode adopted in France formed a sad contrast to the one adopted here, in which he had shown that seven millions sterling an nually escaped Parliamentary control.—(Hear, hear.) In the Admiralty department the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had done much to reform the system of accounts, but still there was great room for improvement. The Admiralty was always in possession of money, and always expending more amounts than were authorised by Parliament. For instance, a few years ago, no less a sum than one million of money was expended by the Admiralty beyond the estimates submitted by Parliament. Now, if some definite and clear system was kept at tho Admiralty, and when pro perly audited and made up to the particular date pre sented to Parliament, such an excess of expenditure would not arise without the authority of that House. He thought that independent of this security there ought to be authority from the Exchequer itself. He found • that in the year 1843 there were deduc tions from the public revenue of about 5,000,0001., and appropriations 1,199,0001., making some 7,000,0001. ; and in the year after the deduction amounted to 6,155,0001., the appropriations to 767,0001., making in all nearly 7,000,0001. ; and so it was in every year down to the date of the latest returns. inasmuch as might be met with the obj e ct i o n th a t, as the Customs could not know what sums might be ne cessary, that they could not avoid drawing at times con siderable overplus. The Excise had retained about the same sums retained by the Customs, viz., for drawbacks, &c., 830,0001.; for the charges of collection, 968,380/.; for further payments, 94,700/.; and for the superannuation fund, 7,758/. Large sums were also retained in other departments, under similar heads, ai;d for all of which it would be very easy to obtain a Parliamentary grant. They would not discharge their duty to the public unless they took measures to effect a remedy. Considering the public burdens, he thought they had a right to have an account of all sums paid into the Exchequer, and ex pended under the control of Parliament. The same system prevailed regarding the Crown lands, in which there had been expended last year, 40,000/. for collection, 285,0001. for other purposes, and 232/. for the superanuation fund. Altogether there had been expended last year in this way upwards of six millions of money. In the army and the navy about 190,0001. was expended in this way, and the same mode was adopted in many other departments of the state s in the military departments 110,000/. There were a great many smaller sums, and the whole amounted to 909,6001., which these departments had received, not from the Exchequer, but from other sources, and without the consent of Parliament. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to other reports : which stated that there was no instance on record of a Government who had adopted the mercantile system of keeping accounts' abrogating that system, and that the adoption of a system of double entry had been followed with the best results, as it had led to much comprehensiveness, and at once shown the state of a nation's financial condition. An order had been made for the introduction of the double entry system into all the public offices ; but he regretted to say, that from a return he had obtained on the subject, it appeared that it had not yet been introduced into the Home Office, the Ordnance, the: Board of Control, the Customs, or the Stamps awl Taxes. Now, he did think he had made out his case for a change in the existing plan, and he hoped the House would therefore agree to his motion. Having said this much, he would sit down by moving the resolutions. Mr. WILLIAMS seconded the resolutions. He thought the question raised one of great national importance. The Honourable Gentleman had adduced so many facts, that he could not see how the Govern thinaetdeh,atdhaitn i f t or s na he e n r ld y h e a a v r e s b d ee e n clared Govern ment could oppose them. H e won d ere d, a ft er th e high aga author u the o p ri r t e i s e e s present per sisted in to the present day. His Hon. Friend had proved that last year more th an seven m illi ons h a d b een intercepted in its progress t o th e E xc h equer , an d t hi s evil had been increasing year by year for a long time. In 1841, when the Ri g ht H on. Baronet the Member for Tamworth came into office, he complained of the state of the finances of the c oun t ry ; an d on t h at occa sion he (Mr. Williams) called the attention of the House to the labours of a Committee that formerly sat on the ques tion. He also called their attention to the fact, that about fifty millions of taxes in 1806 were collected for 9,790,000/., while in 1845 the collection of 56,460,0001. cost nearly five millions.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.) From this it appeared, that while the collection in the year 1806 was but 44 per cent., in the year 1845 it had risen to 8i per cent. In the year 1843, though a great reduction had taken place in the Customs duties, there had in 1843 and 1844 been 114 new places created. In the Post-office also in the last four years, there had been no less than 4,063 places created. In 1806, during the administration of Mr. Pitt, the cost of the collection of the revenue, which was under the strictest supervision, did not exceed from two-and-a-half to three per cent. at the most. Reference had been made to various departments, and with respect to one of the departments mentioned it was set down as 360,0001., while the whole amount brought into the Treasury was 120,0001. Sir Henry Parnell, afterwards Lord Congleton, recommended that the public accounts should be kept on one plan, and the ability displayed in his re commendations were well worthy the attention of the House. He hoped that the Government would give this important matter their serious consideration. He was sure they could not render the country more important service than by giving their assent to the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend. The motion was then read. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who was very indistinctly heard in the gallery) said he feared the subject was not a very interesting one, and he should, therefore, be as brief in his observations as the importance of the subject would admit of. He wished at the outset to bear testimony to the experience of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He had the greatest re spect for the gentlemen whose names were appended to the report to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had referred. But at the same time he could not help stating, that it was found impossible to carry out the recommen dations it contained. Even Lord Congleton admitted that the whole of the recommendations of the Board from whence the report emanated could not be carried out. Yet great advances had been made d u ri ng t h e l ast f ew years in improving the mode of keeping the public ac count,; even the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ad mitted that great improvements had been made in the Treasury in this respect; and it was only last year, that her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill which he had the honour of passing through its ad vanced stages soon after he came into office, for the purpose of promoting a better mode of keeping accounts in certain departments of the Government; but the Go vernment had not been able to carry out all the im provements they wished, in consequence of the pressure of other business, particularly the state of Ireland. Haying said thus much, he could not allow all the state ments ef his Hon. Friend to pass unnoticed. If any body would look at the returns to which the Hon. Gen tleman had referred, it would be seen that in respect of certain departments it was utterly impossible to adopt his plan. Then again, the appropriations in aid ; these were sums voted by Parliament. It was necessary that the sums thus voted for that purpose should continue to be accredited for as they were ; as it would thereby increase the efforts of the officers of the different de partments to realise as much as they possibly could by the sale of the old stores. The Hon. and Learned Member had complained that the House was not aware of the salaries paid to the various clerks and officers in the different departments of the Government. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that it would not tend much to facilitate the business of the House if votes were to be taken singly for, the amount of the salaries paid to each individual collector, clerk, surveyor, or tidewaiter ; but every information might be obtained upon the subject by application at the offices of the various departments. The charges of collection was laid before the House every year. Another charge brought forward by the Hon. and Learned Member was, that there was an increase in the charges of collecting the taxes under the heads of Stamps and Excise, during the last ten years. If the Hon. Member would look to the amount collected in the years to which he referred, he would have seen that in 1836 the revenue under those heads amounted to about 11,000,000/., while in the year 1846 it amounted to upwards of 17,000,000/. ; it was, there fore, clear, that increased charges of collecting would attend the collection of an increased amount of revenue. The Hon. Member for Coventry had also alluded to an increase in the Post-office department ; but surely, when it was considered what an enormous amount of in creased facilities were given to the public by that office, it could not be a matter of complaint that the c h arges under that head had also considera bl y increased. It the public would have increased facilities, they must, at least, be content to pay an increased charge for the s ame . If the Hon. and Learned Member would point out any details in which there was any ground of complaint, he would Mr. BROWN wished to ask the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland a question with reference to certain sub scriptions, said to have been made in the United States for the relief of famine in Ireland. It had been stated that a committee of gentlemen in the United States, had obtained from the Secretary at War of the country the use of two ships of war, which they employed in conveying food, raised by voluntary subscriptions, to the relief of their starving brethren in this side of the Atlantic. If such a course had been taken by any gentlemen in the United States, it was most desirable that the country should know it. Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he was glad to be enabled to answer the question, of which his Hon. Friend had given him notice. He thought that the best way in which he could give that information would be by reading an extract from a letter which he had received. The letter was from Mr. Ewing, who lately represented the United States in this country, and who, when he left, carried with him the esteem and re gard of everybody who knew him. The letter was dated the 26th of March, and stated that the vessel which conveyed it was a vessel of war, which had been lent for the purpose by the Secretary at War, and it conveyed food for the relief of Ireland to the value of 100,000 dollars. These supplies were collected, one-half in Boston, and the other half in the interior towns. It was commanded by Mr. Forbes, a gentleman of high consideration in the United States, who had volun teered his services gratuitously, in order to enconomise the food as much as possible in its distribution. The officers were also persons of consideration, who had volunteered their services gratuitously. That ship arrived at Cork, and would, as it was stated, soon be followed by another with a similar cargo,—(Hear, hear.) PUBLIC ACCOUNTS. Dr. BOWRING said, that on various occasions he had sought to call the attention of the House to the im portant subject which was involved in the resolutions which he was about to propose with regard to the proper appropriation of the public funds. He would, in order to acquaint the House with what he proposed, read the 'resolutions which he intended to submit to their con sideration. The following are the resolutions he had to propose:- 1. That it appears by official returns which have been laid on the table of this House, that a sum exceeding seven millions sterling is annrally rxpended in the dif ferent departments of Goverzon..lJ. without being paid into her Majesty's Exchequer, or subjected to any preli minary Parliamentary sanction or control: 2. That it appears by the returns ordered to be printed in the last session of Parliament, that sums amounting to 6,152,3941. 14s. 9 1-6 d., were deducted by the various revenue departments from their gross re ceipts, and intercepted in their progress to the Ex chequer, for disbursement in the said revenue depart ments, in the year ending the sth day of January, 46. 3. That it appears by the same returns, that in the said year the sum of 909,6101. 12s. 2d. was received by various departments of expenditure, from sources inde pendent of Parliamentary grants, or issues from the Exchequer, and that such sum has been or may be ex pended without previous Parliamentary examination and control. 4. That forithe security - of the public revenue, and:the accuracy, simplicity, and completeness of the public accounts, it is desirable that the gross receipts of all the departments of revenue should be paid into her Majesty's Exchequer. 5. That no department of expenditure should be al lowed to receive money from any quarter other than her Majesty's Exchequer, under Parliamentary vote, and that all sums received for stores, fees, fines, or from any other similar sour ces , b e p a id into her Majesty's Ex chequer. 6. That every department of receipt be required to present an annual estimate of anticipated expenditure, and that such estimate be submitted to the sanction and approval of Parliament. 7. That, as this House has, by its resolutions of last session, recognised and approved of the principle, and directed it to be adopted in the Crown colonies, that the gross revenues should in all cases be paid into the Public Treasury, there is no sufficient rea son for delaying the application of the same prin ciple to the revenues of the United Kingdom ; and that this House concurs in the recommen dation made by the Commissioners of Public Ac counts in the year 1831, " that no portion of the public treasure should be arrested on any plea or pretence whatever off its way to the Exchequer, and that no portion of it should be issued from the Exchequer without previous Parliamentary sanction;" and " that it is only by the adoption of this principle that any really efficient and complete control can be introduced into the different departments of the public service." Now, be did not require to state to the House that there were two great departments required for the business of the State, namely, that of receipt and that of expendi ture ; and he held that the Government would be neglecting one of its most important functions if it did not see that all the taxes raised from the people should reach her Majesty's Exchequer, and also that no portion of these revenues should be issued excepting under the authority of the State. These re -solutions were no novelty in that House, for in the Mr. fl U" wae surprised that the Chancellor of th• Exchequer should object to a general system of accounts of so simple a nature that any child could understand them, which could be carried out by inserting in one the accounts of the various boards or departments of a simple debtor or creditor reecount, to be submitted annually to the Parliament. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer did not appear to have improved himself in the least in spite of all the experience which he had had in the business of the House. He most cordially supported the motion of his Hon. and Learned Friend. Sir G. CLERIC thought the resolution of the Hon. and Learned Member turned upon two points—first, that no sums whatever should be paid away by any public board which was not first paid into the Exchequer of the country; and then, if any returns or drawbacks were required, such sums should be allowed out of the general Exchequer of the country. Now, to such a re solution he begged entirely to object. The present mode of keeping the accounts of the country, was that recom mended by a Select Committee of the House appointed some years since, and proved as effectual and as accurate as any mode of book• keeping adopted in any of the commercial houses in this country. In Scotland the expenses of the civil Government were, by Act of Parliament, deducted from the sums collected, the net suns, less these expenses of collection, being paid into the Exchequer, and if any other plan were intro duced, great anomalies would be the result. Why, if the plan of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were to be generally adopted, a merchant at the clearance house would require his bills to be paid in cash to his bankers, and any deduction would have to be returned by him in cash, or by cheque, instead of deducted and arranged at the time of the clearance. Enquiries had been instituted, and it was found that no better plan than thatadopted in the Ordnance could be adopted. For instance, they sold old stores, and purchased new articles which might be required, out of the funds which they realised. And then it was in the power of every Member of the House to move for returns, showing the receipts and expenditure of each department, so that misappropriation could not take place under such vigi lant supervision. The Hon. Gentleman bad stated that 7,000,000 was intercepted in its way to the Treasury ; but if he would look into the public accounts in detail he would find that vouchers were taken for all the sums paid, and that the whole amount was duly accounted for. Then he could not see what good could result from furnishing in detail the expenditure of every small custom-house department in the kingdom, or of every small post-office. It was upon these grounds that he could not accede to the poposal of the Honourable,md Learned Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorchester introduced a Bill for the purpose of aim plying the accounts of the Exchequer, and since that time great improvements had been made in the mode of keeping the public accounts. The system adopted in France, he believed, had not been so beneficial as the lion. and Learned Gentleman had stated. He trusted that the Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex chequer would not hold out to the Honourable Gentle. man any hope that he would adopt his recommen dations. Why, he could not carry out the first part of it—that part was particularly objectionable. If it were adopted, every small sum received at the Post-office of Ireland, would have to be remitted to this country, before any deductions could be made f rom it for local expences. He saw no reason f or altering the mode of keeping the public accounts ; and, th ere f ore , he could not give his support to the motion. Mr. F. T. BARING admitted the great importance of simplifying the public accounts ; but since the recom mendation of the board, to which the Hon. Gentleman had referred, great improvements had been introduced, and no doubt the Government would avail itself of every opportunity of introducing fresh improvements. It was right, undoubtedly, that all sums for the different de • partments of the Government should be voted by the House ; but they must vote the sums in masses, and not in detail, otherwise they would be wholly unable to do so. Parliament should have the control of the whole expenditure of the country—(Hear, hear)—but with re spect to appropriation, he might say that it was necessary that each department should have the credit of its own savings, instead of being carried to the gross accounts of the nation—that small or important local and inciden tal expenses should be deducted from the receipts, in stead of the gross receipts being paid ieto the Treasury, and every small sum that might be required, voted by the House. For instance, the departments which had articles in their possession which could be sold, should have the power in their hands of selling them at the time when they thought they could make the best bargains, and should have the power of devoting the receipts to something for which they might stand in need, taking care, however, as now, to keep succinct accounts of all • their transactions. By a return, he found that in 1822, 5,688,0001. was expended without passing through the Treasury; but he also found that it had been reduced in 1846, to 4,630,0001., showing that a considerable re duction had taken place. Sir J. GRAHAM would only occupy the House for a short time while he made the observations which be intended. With respect to the public accounts, he agreed entirely with the Hon. Member for Bolton, that the system of double entry should be employed in all cases in the public service. While in office, on a former occasion, he bad been the means of introducing it into many public public departments, and the present Go vernment had introduced it into the army and the Ord nance departments. The Hon. Member, however, ob jected that the same system was not introduced into the Home-office, but it should be borne in mind that that was scarcely on the same footing as any of the other Govern ment departments which had been alluded to. He had been a party to the report of 1831, and to the principle of that report he still agreed, though like the Hon. Mem ber for Portsmouth, he had since seen reason to modify his opinion ; in doing which, he had acted under the example of the late Earl Spencer, who had given the question the greatest consideration. With respect to the public accounts, all inquiry that could be made was already gone into, and the most perfect system of booking now prevailed. The real question, therefore, left for consideration was the payment of the public money without first going into the Exchequer. Now, he main tained, as a sound prin c ipl e, that no money shou ld b e p a id from the revenue of th e country unless it first went in t o the Exchequer, and s h ou ld go into the estimates, b ut h e s opinion that any oth er course than the present one would not work. A s i t regarded the danger of improper application, this wa s p rov i ded against by the fact t h at every year the ac counts had to be laid on the ta bl e , y when they would be open for any Member to call any o f impossible was h r it Spenc er decided o had the items into question. Lord J. RUSSELL rose to speak, When an Hort. MEMBER moved that the House be counted. The gallery was then cleared, but there being 40 Members present, the House resumed. Lord J. RUSSELL rose merely to say that he was ono who, in 1831, signed the report, but since then he found that Lord Althorp was right, and that he was in error. Dr. BOWItING briefly replied, and said that after the expression of opi n i on which he had obtaine d , h e would withdraw his moti on . THE STATE OF THE NAVY. Mr. HUME then rose t o move for an inqu i ry i nto th e state of the navy since 1832, as regards the building, alterations, and repairs of her Majesty's ships. He said that about fifteen years ago, he had called the attention of the House to the state of the navy, and be was sorry that the evils he then complained of had not since been re moved. He stated then that the arrangements for the building of the ships of the navy were of the most imper fect character. Since that time the greatest scientific progress had been made in this country, especially in the application of iron for naval purposes, yet he would, be fore he sat down, show the House that the navy had not participated in these improvements. At that time the Right Hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) was at the head of the Admiralty, and had, as he (Mr. Hume) had then stated, most unadvisedly put an end to the School of Naval Architecture which had then existed twenty•one years. Before he showed what the Right Hon. Baronet destroyed, he wished to show why the school had been established. The young men who bad come forward—and they belonged many of them to the most respectable families in the country— had inducements held out to them, that if they excelled in their departments, they would be eligible for appoint ments. He would read to the House an ex tract or two from the report of a Commission of 1806. The Honourable Member read an extract, showing that at that period the apprentices in the dockyard did not receive the commonest elements of education, although, in after life the safety of the British navy was dependent upon them. The Commissioners recommended that this state of things should be altered, and the Government in 1811 established a school for naval architecture. At that time the builders of their ships were mere copyists from other countries. The Go vernment held out to the pupils hopes that those who were attentive to their studies should be entitled to the emoluments of the dockyard, as master-measurer, mecha nists, shipwrights, and inspectors, with salaries vary ing one.ortls y C from 100/. 1000/. a-year. Mr. Peaks was o ne o f those persons deprived of this p ublic benefit. The Right Hon. of the na me ) ertainly no t Baronet had said, that t he institution ha d failed of pro. ducing the good effe cts that were antici pated from it. He thought the fault la y with the Governm ent themselves. They ought to have c orrected the erro rs of the system, instead of extinguish in g it alto g ether. Since that pe one of the ships , la tel y built, would c ompare with th e Thetis, or any other shi p built by these p u pil s. Many of the pupils had eminently distingui s h e d themselves. w h o u u i d t ?a s k H , if Where had they a tr eatise like that p u blished by Mr. h ri a o cl d' be h e e n eifbel n i ya eve s d hip no ( t w Chatfield, or papers like those published un d er the superintendence of Mr. Cruesse . He would now give them the number of ships built since 1832, and the his tory of their construction ; and . he would prove that they had been, in almost every instance, failures. He in almost every instance, the would prove that, _ , objects required, namely, stronger and fighting qualities, had not been obtained ; he would prove_ also th a t th e i r al terations had been interminable, and that scarcely one of those s hips answered the purpose for which th e y were intended. He did not wish, by any observations of his, to throw discredit upon Captain Symonds, but he blamed the Admiralty, who could allow these proceedings to go on. Captain Symonds, like every other man, was ready and willing to retain his power and his position, and he (Mr. Ilume) could not blame him for so acting. It was human nature. But wher e an im portant trust like this of the British navy, wa s concerne d , it did become a questio n whether he had exercised that judgment wisely. He (Mr. Hume) had taken the trouble to see what was the a mount of money which had been a • the fifteen years voted for wages during , and he must acknowledge that it was a very large sum ; but if that money had been applied properly, he should have thought less of it. It amounted to twenty-two mil- THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY ErErNIN Cr, _APRIL 30 1 1847 Eons ; and he ventured to say that he would prove, if this inquiry took place, that a very large pr p ,rtion of that sum had been wasted. Under the two votes of : 9rtil na7al n !Ird 19.1 S,OCO OJOL had bkun grantcd fur tho former at. : l I-1,000,0001. for the )arts r. Deducting the vote of this year, 19,000,0001. would be left as the amount of the stores under the direction of Captain Sy-mord , . The statement as to the ships laid down during the same pe riod showed the following results:— Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's design, laid down since 1832 ... On designs by the former surveyors, laid down in 1812 to 1828 On the French model of M. Sane ... ... 9 Total launched ... Frigates, on design by Mr. Fincham, laid down in On Sir W. Symonds's designs, laid down since 1831 On designs by the late surveyors, laid down in 1820 to 1828 ... On the French model of Pestel, laid down in 1828... On design of School of Naval Architecture, laid down in December, 1844 ... On design by Admiral Hayes, laid down in 1836 ... On design by Captain (now Admiral) Elliot, laid down in 1842 ... 1 Total launched ... ... Corvettes, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1831 ... - ... ... - ... ... On designs by the late surveyor, Sir B. Seppings, laid down in 1830 ... ... ... ... ... On designs by Professor Inman, laid down in 1827 On designs by Captain (now, Admiral) Elliot, in 1836 ... . . --- ... 1 Total launched ... ... Brigs, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1831 ... - ... ... ... On designs by Captain Hendry, R.N., laid down in 1842 ... ... ... ... ... ... On designs by different master-shipwrights, 1843 On designs by School of Naval Architecture, 1843 On designs by private builders, laid down in 1831, one—in 1843, one ... ... ... 2 Total Brigantines, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1835 ... ... ... On designs by Sir R. Seppings, laid down in 1829 Total .. ••• Packets, on designs by Sir W. Symonds, laid down since 1832, and launched ... The following ships were building, or in progress : Ships of the Line, on Sir W. Symonds's models ... 19 On French model of Sane 1 By Mr. Lang ... ... 1 By School of Naval Architecture ... ... 1 By the late Admiral Hayes ... 1 ... 9 ... ... 23 ... 10 ... ... 1 1 2 1 Total... ... Frigates, on Sir VV. Symonds's models Mr. Fincham Mr. White (private builder), Deptford ... Mr. Blake (late master shipwright), Portsmouth ... Mr. Lang, jun., Woolwich ••• Total... Corvettes, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... Brigs, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... •-• Brigantines, on Sir W. Symonds's model ... 1 The steam navy was not included. The charge was, that failures in building ships had taken place to an enormous extent. Scarcely one ship had been laid down by Sir W. Symonds which had turned out other than a failure. He might instance that great ship, the Vernon, on which his character in a manner depended. He recollected that in that House Captain Rous, in speaking of these ships, referred to the Pique and the Vernon as bad sea-boats, shipping so much water, that there was danger on the main deck.—(Bear.) With regard to the Vernon, he should be prepared to prove, that in her first voyage she pitched so much as to nearly destroy her whole bulwarks, besides shipping se veral seas. The vessel, in point of fact, was a copy of an old French ship, which had years before been tried and found unsuccessful. lie should be prepared also to prove that the vessels of the Vernon class, built by Captain Symonds and his assistants, were copies of former discarded models; and that CaptainlSymonds, and the others connected with him, displaced men in the pub lic service who, in experience and ability, were immea surably their superiors. The East India Company's vessels were built according to the old principles of naval architecture, and they had efficiently performed the duties they were built for; while all, or at least the ma jority of Captain Symonds's vessels had always to undergo expensive alterations before they were at all fit for ser vice. In fact, a ship built by Sir W. Symonds always re quired to have her bow lengthened, her rudder en larged, and her masts altered, and yet the Admiralty still allowed that gentleman's system to re main in operation, against the remonstrances of many eminent persons connected with the navy. Many per sons had been found to praise the Vanguard, and no doubt when she went out as a mere yacht she succeeded very well, but when she was sent out upon active service she pitched and tossed so much that she was completely knocked up, and when taken into dock at Davenport it was found that in two instances she bad split her cop pers, while her oakum had so worked out that she had to be recaulked. The consequence of this abominable system prevailing in her Majesty's dockyards had in volved the country in enormous expences. From the re turns he held in his hand he found that the Queen had cost 127,0001. and the Vanguard 111,0001. In like man ner the public money had been squandered on the Prince Albert and the Gascoigne, vessels of a lower class than those he had already mentioned, and he put it to the House, whether it was right that this state of things should continue. Was it creditable to the country ? He apprehended not, for he would undertake to prove that in no community iu the world was there so much money wasted in building, or, rather, in altering misbuilt ships as in England. There was the Star again. She, too, was built at Wool wich, upon Sir W. Symonds' system, but in her first voyage to sea her decks were washed away, many of the gallant men who manned her were lost, and she had to be taken into dock again, and almost entirely rebuilt. Now was it right that a naval surveyor, who was so much incapacitated for his:office as Sir Wm. Symonds, should be permitted longer to squander the public money in *his way. He thought he had already stated sufficient to induce the House to grant this enquiry; but, if the House wished, he could still go on enumerating instances where the public money had been thrown away with impu nity by the naval architecture patronised by the Admiralty. He thought that the public ought to know the whole particulars connected with the state of things. Several vessels had also been condemned and sold out. There was the Scarborough, 74 guns, built by Sir W. Symonds; it had only been out a few months when it was sold for 6,0001., though it was worth 40,0001. There were also the Thames, the Liffey, and the Redoubtable, the whole of which were either sold or condemned without having seen scarcely any service ; some of them, indeed, not having been taken even off the stocks. There were also other portions of the service to which he must call the attention of the House. He thought it important to know whether the Surveyer of the Admiralty properly performed his duty, or whether the Board of Admiralty saw that those duties were properly performed. It was au instruction to the Surveyor of the Admiralty to re port once a year upon the condition of all her Majesty's ships in the navy, but for a number of years past no such return had been made by Sir W. Symonds. Mr. WARD—returns have been made. n:nted their opinion that she was not perfect. S) of the respecti which a satisfactory repert had hear r ceived :since her arrival at Lisbon. His Hon. Friend towards her stern ; and when she was launched she sank her head into the water with her stern up like a duck diving.—(A laugh.) She would nut answer her helm. end d bey_; a!tesed senie isained an i a .1' lieved that she had cost. 100,000/. That was the last eat of Sir W. Symonds. Whether the Admiralty had examined the line, or had taken any opinion upon it, he could not tell ; but there seemed to be a kind of com pact between the Admiralty and the surveyor. Such a state of things was a discredit to any country. But he had not yet done. The Lizard, 150 horse power, a packet, iron steamer, built by Sir William Symonds, commissioned at Woolwich in 1842 by Lieutenant Mac donald, was nearly sinking in the basin from the weight of her stores ; and all her stores, officers, crew, guns, ex., were turned over to the Spitfire of the same size, but constructed by Mr. 0. W. Lang, jun., and now in the Mediterranean. The Spitfire tookl them all with heavier guns and double the quantity of coals, besides many other additions. The Spitfire's engines are old and very heavy, compared with the newer make in the Lizard. There were many similar instances of failure, also of falsification in that return. The Lizard required to be altered, and lighter guns and fewer stores than were originally intended tor her. But he would now turn to the official report of Captain Lushington of the Retri bution, of her putting back into Plymouth after the gale (on the 6th or 7th of June, 1846), when she washed her shot out of the racks about the neck; and his and Cap tair. Ramsay's reports of his last trial with the Terrible (about the 2d or 3d of July, 1846,) would show the com plete defeat of the Retribution. He believed that the Terrible had turned out a very good ship ' • and that whether under sail or in any kind of d u ty she had con ducted herself well. Both Captain Ramsay and Sir W. Parker had reported well of her. He had another list of vessels that had been taken down and destroyed, but he was really ashamed to trouble the House with it. He thought he had stated enough to show that in order to stop the abuse of spending money and materials the whole system should be placed under some proper control. Ho was told there was a committee of reference, but that committee was not in his opinion properly qualified; they had not had a proper education; whilst it should be remembered that a former Admiralty had shown their wisdom and authority by appointing a committee of master ship wrights, and the said committee by their report entirely condemned the line of Sir W. Symonds' ships. The next point he came to was that of expense. By a return which was moved for by the Hon. and Gallant Officer, the Member for Maryleboae, he found that the Queen cost 127,0001., and the Trafalgar 114,0001., but he be lieved the valuation was made in the time of war, when the whole charge was at war prices. The next ship, the Albion, which was to be the example and pattern of all others, up to the Ist of March, 1846, had cost 104,048/. The Rodney cost 145,0001. It was originally a better ship than the Albion, but 17,000/. had been expended upon her in alterations, and she had been spoiled. The Vanguard cost 111,000/.; the Penelope 101,0001. Those were large sums of money, but it was not so much the money as the system he complained of. He really thought it was high time that " Symonds the Destroyer" should be prevented from wasting the public money in this manner, and a Committee of Inquiry ought to be instituted. It might be said that a committee of ship wrights was now sitting as a committee of reference, but he contended th a t th ey were not competent to the task which he thought ought to be performed. He did think the state of things which he had described was a reproach, after the report made on the state of the navy so far back as 1806. After the example set them by France, and after the extension of education, he did think that they should have had proper ships con structed, and fully equal to those of any other country ; but nothing of the kind had occurred, and the details which he had laid before the House showed that they had entrusted the navy to quacks—(Cheers)-- to persons without the requisite knowledge or education for the proper performance of the tasks they were entrusted with. Looking at the state of the navy during the last fifteen years, and the immense interests involved, he did think that the time had come when an inquiry should take place, in order that the exact condition of the navy might be shown, and suggestions made for placing it on a different footing, one worthy of this country, in which young men might acquire the requisite knowledge for the important offices they were destined to fill ; but the existing schools did not afford sufficient information to all. They had had discussion after discussion with respect to the capabilities of particular ships, and it was but due to the public to make an inquiry, in order that they might be informed whether the statements which bad been made public from time to time were true or un true. On a question of education, and on a question of expense, he considered it to be their duty to make an inquiry, If it were granted, he should be prepared io show that both time and materials had been wasted, and that, considering everything, it was a wonder they stood as well as they did. Lord INGESTRE was glad that the subject had been brought forward as a distinct motion, and not incident ally on the supply nights, when but a few professional gentlemen were present. The construction of the mari time deficiences of this country was a subject deserving of the most serious consideration of every Member of that House, for it was not fair, not consistent with the high character of this country, that our gallant seamen should be called upon to perform their duties in badly constructed ships.—(Hear.) He wished to return his sincere grati tude to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the subject in its present shape. He had particularly to complain of the equipment of the navy, and he considered that the person employed as the navy surveyor should be ascertained to be a person fit for the duties he would have to discharge, before he was appointed; but one per son was not capable of discharging the duties which came within the province of that office.—(Hear.) No doubt great and useless expenses had been incurred; as he found that, in 1-835, the cost of sailing ships was 1,356,000/., and that almost a similar sum had been expended in the construction o 1 steamers during the same year. Conti nual fluctuations in the mode of constructing vessels oc curred, showing that the science which required such continual change, must be exceedingly defective. An example of faulty construction was to be found in the Vernon, to which their attention had been frequently derected, he had been favoured with a letter respecting the Albion, from an officer, whom he would have been glad to have seen in more active service, viz. Capt. Ryder Burton. He stated that that ship was originally intended to carry 68-pounders, but as she sank so much on being launched, a lighter calibre of 32-pounders had to be substituted, as the stores and other heavy materials were below the centre of gravity, and that if she had remained as originally intended she would have rolled over, and that even in her present condition she would be exposed to great danger during a squall in the Bay of Biscay. Yet she was intended as a model for other ships.—(Hear, hear.) This letter (continued the Noble Lord) stated, in a few words, the whole question ; for the great complaint against the surveyor was, that all the ships built by him had this fault. They all knew the great injustice done to our officers and men during the late American war, owing to their being sent out in small and insignificant ships—(Hear)--but he hoped this would never occur again, and that proper ships fitted for service would be invariably used.--(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then read a list of several trials that had been made at various times with the model ships. in which he alleged the experiments had been attended with the most unsatisfactory results. He dill not wish to fatigue the House after the details which had been given by the Hon. Member for Montrose, still he must say that there was too much disposition amongst those in power to put down any attempt made to interfere with their mode of transacting business. Every one who endeavoured to make improvements in the navy, especially in the building of ships, had been met with the most pettifogging obstruction, and every obstacle put in their way. lie denied that it was true, as as serted, that every improvement recently made, in the contruction of ships, had been plagiarised from Sir W. Symons. Any one, who would make an impartial in quiry into the matter, would find that this was not the fact. Neither the country nor the House would remain satisfied with the present state of naval architecture in this country, and they would have ero long to establish a school for this purpose. His astonishment was, that it should have ever been abolished, seeing how impor tant it was to the interests of the country. The case of the Albion alone, which hail been cited, was suffi cient to warrant a committee of inquiry, without any other reasons being adduced. This ship had been ad mitted to be a complete failure. If not in these preci.>e terms, at least in words to the same effect, this was admitted. The Noble Lord next complained of the returns which had been laid on the table of the Admiralty, and considered that they did not give a fair representation of the state of the navy. Ile would not detain the liou=e longer, and would e,m elude by expressing a hope that an inquiry would be made into the whole subject, and that a school of some kind would be established for the teaching of naval architecture, that thereby the vessels of this eouniry would be able to compete in future with any of the other nations of the earth. Mr. WARD said it was not his intention to pursue his Hon. Friend through the Bill of indictment he bad preferred against the Ministries which had been in office fur the last fifteen years; but having hefted from the Noble Lord who had sat down that they stood in the way of the efficiency of the navy of England, he con fessed that he could not see how that efficiency could be promoted by the inquiry moved for by the lion. Member. Errors such as the Hon. Member described might have taken place, but had he not now a security against their recurrence ? Some of the most eminent members of the late School of Naval Architecture—Mr. Reed, Mr. In man, Mr. Bennett, and Mr. Fincham—were now mem bers of the committee of instruction, to whom, and to the Surveyor of the Navy, all plans for the building of new ships were referred by the Admiralty. Could any better system be devised, combining a responsibility to that House, than that one which the Government lied determined to adopt ? The Gallant Commodore (Sir C. Napier) had suggested the appointment of some inter mediate person or persons, but what would that be but the Surveyor of the Navy in another shape ?—(Hi ) y The best responsibility was o b ta i ned by having in 'h th r :tt House those who were a t th e h ead of affairs, and who might be accused, eith er j ust l y or unjustly, as , the caS t e l mi te gh n t be,de for whatever had been done by their suppr in or by their direction. Hmou t ; e which - able Friend co u ld h ave no e btte r security his than system now established, and No i e a Lord ee now at the h ea d o f t h e Admiralty intended dto most strictly in all his future proceedings. He entirely doubted the possihilit of 1- miralty in this country devisi ) ng a e n j ct a'a i r e d lel o f f or A t ( he building of all future ships. It - was ar desirable, m no doubt, to have as touch science as possible in shipbuilding; but in the construction of ships of war there were so ma ly different requirements to be sought which were not con fined to one point, but combining many and opposite qualifications, that the perfect model which they wanted was still to be sought. The Thetis had been mentione d, but the gentlemen who bad constructed her bad inti- - - ( • .(I( it esfeee,,, . , :, i ' . , „e.: es . e•e it , a Queen and the Albien, and had spelten of the latter ship as a failure. But Sir W. Parker, in writing to Lotd Auckland, said— " I think well of the Albion; she does not sail so fast as the Vanguard, the Superb, or the Canopus, and she is said to be very uneasy; but the manner in which she stands up under canvass is astonishing. I wish that Captain Loekyer had been allowed months ago to ballast and trim her according to his own ideas, for he is ' every inch a sailor, and would have endeavoured to do justice to her. I agree with him, that the ship is fully equal to carry the long 68 pounders throughout on the lower deck, and I confess that I should like to see it tried. The Queen's sailing has generally been superior to the Albion's. I have heard no complaint of her being un easy. In short, I consider her by far the finest ship of her class that has ever been built; and, in a general chase, she would probably be found amongst the best of the two-deckers.' Where were the House to go for authorities if they were not to receive as such the reports of officers of such high practical knowledge and experience as Sir W. Parker?—(Hear.) The truth was, they had not yet arrived at the high standard, or anything like it, which the Hon. Member appeared to think possible. He ad.. mitted the necessity of bringing the best naval science possible to bear upon the subject, but he wished those who were in favour of re-establishing the Naval School of Architecture held the moderate expectations enter tained by the members of that body. In the first re port of Messrs. Read, Chatfield, and Creuze, in 1843, they said:— " It will be our endeavour to remove this misappre hension. In making this attempt we do not arrogate to ourselves any new discovery; we merely assert that there are no insuperable obstacles opposed to sure and progressive improvement; that the course of proceeding in other branches of knowledge is applicable to this; and that inductive reasoning, based on mathematical investi gations, may be applied with eminent advantage to naval architecture, as it has been to other branches of natural philosophy." Did the report say that the writers had the power of making the most perfect model? No such thing. Perhaps these gentlemen had not had fair play. —(Hear.) He hoped there would be a great improve ment in naval architecture, but that improvement was still to come. The evidence adduced by the Hon. Mem ber in support of his motion was of the loosest character, and the House had shown its sense of it. If, as the Hon. Member stated, 22,000,0001. of money had been wasted and thrown into the sea, and yet that, after all this ex penditure, they had not a ship that was capable of meet ing a French or American vessel, the motion would have brought down every Member of that House to ex press his reprobation and indignation. With respect to the question of re-opening the school of naval archi tecture, he confessed that the consideration of this question was attended with a great deal of difficulty ; but it was determined that that the boys in the docks, who exhibited the higher abilities, which they wished to encourage, would be transferred to a school at Ports mouth, and there receive an education fitted for the position they were destined to fill, and then be returned to their places in the docks, and made officers, as they would be found to deserve advancement in the service. Much obloquy had been thrown upon Sir W. Symonds. He believed that officer to be as much under-rats d at the ' present moment, as he was over-rated in the earlier part o' his career. The House might rely upon it that the Government would endeavour to bring as much science as possible to bear upon the construction of the navy. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he should have left the vindication of naval affairs to the lion. Gentle man who had just spoken, if it had not been for certain observations contained in the speech of the Hon. Mem ber who brought forward the motion. 'Tne Hon. Mem ber stated that he had refreshed his memory this morn ing by a reference to what had taken place some years ago. He ( -ir J. Graham) had not the same opportunity that the Hon. Member had ; he had not looked at a single document, or prepa re d himself in any way for that evening's discussion. The lion. Member would perhaps permit him to say that his reference to that period had made him (Sir J. Graham) melancholy. The Hon. Nfember was poetical upon the subject ; he had talked (4' the hand of the aestrover, and aiteeearets he had eta t ured to affirm that which, on inork• matere ref' , ction, he (Sir J. Graham) thought he would regret ; he had ven tured to state Mr. Hawkes in 1835 had fabricated a report ~r - the purpose of misleading the House and the public. That officer had died some years ago, with a reputation as pure and unsullied as any gentleman of whom that House could boast, and until that moment, not a whisper had been whispered against his name or honour. There were some great principles in reference to this subject, to which he had no difficulty in assenting. He entirely agreed with his Hon. Friend, that this subjact was well deserving of the consideration of the British Parliament. It was the boast of this country that she possessed the greatest and most successful seamen of the world, and it ought, therefore, to be the desire of the country to pro vide the best vessels for them to sail in, which skill and experience could produce. He would not hesitate at once to admit that he was responsible for the appoint ment of Sir William Symonds to the situation of Surveyor to the Navy. He made that appointment deliberately, after consulting the best authorities up ee the subject. The Honourable Gentleman who had intro duced this motion said that he (Sir J. Graham) had once, declared, that science was not the only quality necessary to constitute surveyor of the navy; but the Hon. Gentleman had unintentionally misrepresented him, for what he did say was abstract science alone was not a qualification for the selection of a naval surveyor. It was impossible in making the selection of such an officer to have a due regard to naval experience as well as science. Now, whatever might be the scientific merits of Sir W. Symonds, no one would deny that he had had considerable naval experience. Sir W. Symonds had been one of the most successful naval officers of the country; while, withreference to ship-building, he con tended there was no doubt whatever that the Gallant Gentleman had paid a good deal of attention to the con struction of ships. Indeed, he had reason to believe that the gallant officer's knowledge of ship-building was considerable, and he possessed amply sufficient scientific information and experience to render him worthy of the office to which he bad been appointed. Before he proceeded further to discuss the merits or de merits of Sir W. Symonds, there was one observation which fell from the Hon. Member opposite to which he (Sir James Graham) wished to refer. The Hon. Gen denim observed that they ought to exercise the greatest caution in believing what they heard. With the excep tion of matters of religion, he did not think so much difference of opinion existed as upon the merits or de merits of Sir W. Symoi di's ship-building. Having made these few prelimieary observations, he wished now to glance at one or two of the other topics alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman opposite. The lion. Gentleman seemed to think that it was an act of injustice towards the school of naval architecture to have abolished that establishment. Now, at the time it was abolished there was no doubt whatever that it involved a very large outlay of the public money, and as the benefits arising from the existence of the establishment will not be sufficient to justify its continuance, it was abolished accordingly. The pupils, however, did not suffer from its abolition, for most of them were subsequently appointed to most lucrative offices in the various dockyarda of the country. Now, with reference to the merits of Sir Wiltiani Sy monds, the Hon. Gentleman had raid that in this coun try the improvement of ship •building had not been pro gressive. Now he (Sir James Graham) admitted that at the time of the war some of the best ships England pos sessed had been b :ilt in France. Another vessel VMS also built about , he same ti ne by (FI et V. Symonds, called the Vanguard, which the rate Sr, Charles Paget reported upon a trial of her to be an equally good vessel. On the whole, therefore, he could not look upon Sir W. Symons as a men being incompetent for the situation he:held. Sr William Synond s had been contmucd iii his office by several successive Governments and of course they must share with him the responsibii,ty of the Gallant Officer's appointment. Rep rts in favour of his ships had been made by Admiral Stopfor I, Admiral Hyde Parker, Admiral Byng, and teeny other distin euished officers in the navy ; and on the whole, he thought S r William Symands liau been hit hly success ful in his capacity of Surveyor of the Navy. With regard to the expetiaes which had been incurred under the Gallant Officer's direct en, in altering and improving vessels, he confessed he could not fez:, e with the Hon. Gentleman opposite, that it was money throe r. away. He b--licved th t the money which had been so expended would tend greatly to 'he public advantage, while it must be clear that money could not be more legltarnately spent than in a time of peace testing the various modes of building ships of war, and correcting the defects which experience had demonstrated. The Inconstant was built by an admirable naval officer, a man of science t , a considerable extent. The Eur ydice, again, was built by a distinguished naval officer, not so much noted for his attainments in science as for naval a bilities. Th o Thetis was an improved edition o f Sir W. Sy monds's style of ship-building, with the ad mitted faults corrected. The Ben. Member for Montrose had spoken of the great expense incurred in the altera tions of the Rodney; but she was trot built by Sir W. Symonds, nor on the lines or any ~f his ships. Some thing ;had been said of Dr. Inman's certificate in the naval schools; he tholight, however, that he had been a very useful person in the iiil;z..ti.',n of youth, but as a ship builder he was decidedly UUStweessiul; clearly showing that sci e n ce a l one was not sufficient to qualify a - person for th e d ut i es of a ship-builder. He warned the present Beard o f Ad miralty not ti trust too much to the newly constructed' board of construct i on; " if they did so, there would be no doubt that that board would soon become like the Navy Board, which, when ha was connected with the Admiralty, he, by the consent of Parliament, abolished. The present constitution of the Board of Admiralty was most admirable ; and if the suggestions of that Board were fully and fairly attended to, they would be amply sufficient, and he should regret that there should exist any other board to interfere with their decisions. He advised the Government not to interfere with these de cisions ; et them remove Sir W. Symonds if he did not give satisfaction, and appoint another surveyor, or even two, but he would most certainly advise them not to con stitute any opposing navy board. He did not see any benefit which would be likely to result from the appoint ment of the Committee or a Commission, and he should most certainly oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Mon trose.—(Cheers.) Capt. BERKELEY could assure the Right Hon. Ba ronet opposite, that his suggestions with respect to the Committee of Construction should not bo lost sight of. That Committee was only consulted by the Board of Admiralty when any new system of construction was submitted to them. With r.epect, to Sir W. Symonds, he begged to call the attention ur the House to the early services rendered by that gallant officer to lie country; first of all, in the abolitiou of the 10-gun brigs. Mr. HUME—WeII, let him have the inquiry as asked for, and he would soon see whether such report had, or had not been made. Now, orders were given not to pro ceed with the building of the Aboukir and Exmouth, in consequence of their having been defective. Those ves sels were laid down on the lines of the Albion, which rolled so much that it was quite a wonder how any men or guns could keep on the deck of the vessel. That ves sel, when tried,in the experimental squadron, rolled at an angle of 45 deg. When the result of the sailing qualities of this vessel was known, orders were given not to build these vessels upon the same lines, and yet upon several occasions the works had continued with varied progress. He came now to the steamers. lie found that when Sir W. Symonds started he bad, by Admiralty order, the drawing of the following steam-vessels as a guide fur his own construction, viz.:—The Comet, Lightning, Meteor, Pluto, Flamer, Firebrand, Firefly, Spitfire anal Medea, from which his first production (assi s t e d by' Mr. Edye) was the Gulnare, increas e d in b rea dth f rom th e Cornet. His first vessel, the Gulnare, failed—too deep and very slow; her power was then increased to obtain speed, many alterations made in her fittings, &c., and to cover Gl eaner; these mistakes her nam e c h ange d to but still, being too deep wa s sen t t o Ch at h am, cut into two parts, and lengthened; still a failure, very slow and very deep—could not carry her coals and stores. This was a bad beginning, and a bad specimen of steam construc tion. The Blazer a n d T ar t arus were th e nex t t wo built--both failed. Their engines and boilers were taken out and new ones made of increased power—these vessels were laid up ten months, during the time the alterations were going on. Hermes, the next built, rolled and pitched to such a degree that she was also sent to Chatham in May, 1840, to be cut in two parts and lengthened two feet at the keel and twenty feet on deck. She had siace had an upright stem and addi- Itional power, with other alterations. Volcano, a sister vessel, had the same propensities of rolling, &c. Sbe plunged her bowsprit into the sea, and lost her jibboom and jib in the ocean, as she could not bring them up again. Gorgon, built at Pem broke— intended to carry guns, but found to be so deep in the water the ports were obliged to be caulked in, copper on the bottom raised, and her power increased. The Cyclops , a sister vessel, in consequence of the Gorgon failing, was lengthened to remedy the evil, but could not carry t he guns intended, being still too deep in the water. After these and other repeated errors, he has increased the lengt h of his steam-vessels and altered their forms. The Devastation, and that class of steamers, have been brought up to the same proportion of length as the Medea, and their figure made to assimilate more to that vessel. He now came to the royal yacht. -He was one of those who, when Sir Robert Peel made the proposal for building this yacht, was of opinion that there were so many yachts that there was no occasion for any more ; but they were assured by the Government that it would be made at very little additional expense, and that in case of war, it might be converted into a war steamer it necessary. But what was the result ? This was the last that was built atter all their experience. A very dull man might b ecome a shipwright in fifteen years ; but still there sras dis played about this vessel a want of scientific knowledge —a want of knowing what the effect o f displace ment, fore and aft , in relation to the ship's f igure was, that had been the cause of all the Surveyor's f a il ures. ' This royal yacht was so impe r f ect l y constructed that she was obliged to carry 120 tons of baba:A ;Die s the re uow le re each atr [ told sures could eople vhich of that be rest