The Sun. — London, England, 1832-03-09 00:00:00

Lieittenaut had to act with a liberal Beforming Govern ment, the very natural consequence was, that they were Pulling two very different ways; but even though this was the case, lie thought that between them they might have avoided casting a stigma on the county of Lincoln. He did not complain of the Noble Earl having retiree from Stamford from the Saturday to the Monday. Being a f a mily man, no doubt the Noble Earl was very rigit— (A though be hail to serve the Xing, that did not exempt him from serving his family too ; and as Sa turday was a convenient sort of a clay, it was all vet. ) natural that he should have made choice of it to 7.'em.l his way homeward—(Laughter)—but thoma:h there was this justification fur the Colonel, there could be no doubt that the militia had lost great opportunities of efficiency of service by the additional alasence of the Lieutenant-Colonel, who, having seen service all his life, and having been in Portugal, Spain, and Waterloo, and he knew not where be sides, would, beyond all doubt, have been highly useful in the way of illuminating the Lincoln militia ; and ne doubt it was owing to the Hon. Gentleman's absence that the regiment was as blindly ignorant of service on the last day of the three weeks as they had been cc the first. Having said thus much of the South Lincoln militia, be would new pass on to the North Lincoln militia. He happened to be in the neighbourhood. looking after some of his firma, and there fore could speak as to the impression made on him on see ing them going into Lincoln. All that he had seen were parties of fenmen, going about six at a time towards the city, and withal so blythe and frisky, that to him they looked more like lively Emeralders than the sober men of Lincolnshire. With respect to the Lieetenant-Colonel, the thing for which he appeared best suited was to be a member of the Charles-street Club, and about as much might be said of the Adjutant. But ta return to his nar rative. From the time that the men came into Lincoln nothing whatever happened, except that there was a mus ter (he believed) of the clergy and the cld women of the place in the cathedral yard ; but of course, no harm came from that. But though this was all that took place with respect to either of the two regiments, to their great eur wise they !earned that, pursuant to a direction from Lord Viscount Melbourne, they were to be disbanded before the regular time, in consequence, as he felt justified in saying, of the correspondence that had taken place between the Lord Lieutenant and the Government. He thought-, therefore, that in moving for a copy of this correslenndence, it was nothing but what was fair and proper with the view of discharging the county from that disgrace which was now hanging over it, in consequence of the sudden and unexplained disbanding of its militia force. Ike expected that the Hon. and Gallant Member opposite would reply to him, and he hoped that, when he did, be would practise more courtesy than way usual with him— that he would not inflict upon him a repetition of that notice in which he called a county meeting—at which he (Sir W. 1.) united with his constituents for a public ob ject —an assemblage of four hundred ragamuffins.—(A lau:h.) He was in the habit of sitting growling and grumbling like Etna, and than a crater would burst, and out would come nothing but smoke and ruhbish.—(Great laughter.) HENEAGE seconded the motion. Air. GEORGE LAMB would certainly resist the prodnvtion of the correspondence on general grounds. Colonel SIB fIIORPE said there was one matter that he was in some degree bound to notice, namely, she charge brought against him of having ahs , .-2nred himself during the period of service. He trusted it was pretty well known that that absence W 45 solely occasioned by illness. The Hon. Baronet had that evening addressed the House upon a subject with which he could not be supposed peculiarly conversant ; lot if he had favoured them with a disquisi tion upon the tobacco trade, it would probably have proved one on which it would have been in his power to have afforded more information. Mr. TENNYSON stated that it was not owing to any conduct on the part of the inhabitants of Stamford that the period of service was in any degree curtailed. 'The motion was then put, and negatived without a division. 31r. HUNT postponed, for a fortnight, his motion which stood on the paper, for certai❑ returns connected with the Courts of Requests in the metropolis. TITHES (IRELAND). . _ Mr. STANLEY rose, pursuant to notice, for the pur pose of calling the attention of the House to the subject of Iri•h Tithes. On the 6th December that H ruse, in com mon with the other House of Parliament, reel ived from his Majesty a strong recommendation to take the subject of tithes in Ireland into their immediate and most attentive consideration. Is reply to that recommenda tion, the House signified they would consider it their first duty to inquire if some important improve ment could not be effected in the law of Ireland, to remove the evils arising out of the tithe system, or to pre vent the causes by tehich those evils were produced. In a few ‘lays after that recommendation and answer had passed, a Committee was appointed, and the subject thus referred to that Committee engaged their most careful and labo rious investigation. As the Chairman of that Committee, it had become his duty to report to the House, that though the Committee had not been able to conclude their labours, yet that they had proceeded far enough to he able ti lay before the House some portion of the information which they had acquired, and to call upon the House to take such steps as, under the circumstances, might be necessary. The Committee, then, having proceeded that length, it became his duty to lay before the House the views which his Majesty's Government entertain upon that question ; but he thought the most convenient course would be that be should submit those views to a Committee of the whole House. He conceived it to he more convenient as afford ing wider scope for debate, and affording him a better op pertunity to explain and state the whole of the plan which his Majesty's Government had resolved upon adopting, as well as the resolutions upon which they intended it should he founded. He, therefore, int,ndcil to conclude by ninving, " That the House do then resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House." To that course he an ticipated no opposition ; and, therefore, he should at once move that the Speaker do leave the chair. The question having been put, Mr. BROWNLOW, from the notice of the Right Hon. Gentleman as it stood on the paper, concluded that it was his intention to open up the whole of the plan of the Go vernment before he made any such motion as that the House do resolve itself into a Committee. The usual course in ail such cases was that the Government should previously state its plan to the House, move resolutions, and if neces sary afterwards go into a Committee. It was scarcely fair to call upon Hon. Members to discuss a subject of that sort i❑ Committee, the House being at the time in perfect itnorance of the views and intentions of his Ma jesty's Government; for it was generally taken for granted that when the House went int." ) Committee, it stood pledged at least to the princip'e of the resolutions proposed. (No, no, and hear.) He recollected that that was the practice pursued on the Catholic question, and that there fore precedent was altogether ageinst what had been pro posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He should resist the proposition that the Speaker do leave the chair—at least until the views of Government were clearly and fully stated to them. In the absence of all such information as he had a right to expect, he should certainly oppose the motion on which they were then required to pronounce a decision, He thought there was touch reason to deplore that the Right Hon. Gentleman had called upon them to deal with a partial report ; why should not the whole opinions of the Committee be I,id before them, and why should they not have the whole of the evidence on their table, be fore they were called upon to pronounce a decision ? He protested against being thus called upon to deal with a partial report; but he begged at the same time to have distinctly understood that be held the parochial clergy of Ireland to he fully entitled to the protection of the Legisla ture; at the same time it did appear to him that nothing could be more absurd than to call upon that House to legislate on a subject of that nature without once affording the slightest information as to the position in which the ineumhents were in relation to their congregations. He was as ready as any man to admit that the parochial clergy were not to blame ; but it was not enough to hive that face before tlora—they should also have fully placed before then► the condition of the tithe-payers. The clergy had in a great number of instances urged their claims with temper and moderation; but what did that tell of,the condition of the tithe-payers? There could be no doubt that matters had now proceeded to a fearful extent, and yet it was rumoured that there were to be new laws of coercion for the purpose of enabling the parochial clergy to recover the arrears of their tithes. It really did appear to him that no course could be more cal culated to aggravate the evils at present afflicting Ireland than was the course which it was under stood the Right Hon. Geedeman proposed to pursue—it would do anything but promote peace between the clergy man and his parishioners. Did any rational man suppose that it would dry up the sources of that bad blood be tween the Rector and his congregation, which had been the cause of so much misery in Ireland ? So far from that, it would aggravate the difficulties and dangers of the situation in which the clergy were placed, and prove in the highest degree injurious to the interests of the Church establishment. He would again repeat, that the clergy were entitled to protection ; they had entered upon their sacred profession upon the taith of being protected by the law, and nothing but their own conduct could deprive them of the benefit of that protection ; but if the Govern ment wished to secure to the Procestant clergy the g, od will of the people and the efficient protection of the lime, they were pursuing a fatal (entitle in thus proceeding to enact new measures of coercion, without accompanying it with those healing means—that solid amendment and ra -1 dical change, which the whole system of the Church E;ta olishment so loudly demanded. If the measures of severi ty were only introduced for a season, and osete accompa niedl with those other measures! to which he had alluded, he confessed he shcella: not much object to such a pro ceeding. severity might he necessary, but measures of reconciliation and reform might to he tried at the same time; at all events, there could not be a second opinion upon this—that before they went into Committee, they ought to be furnished with. the views and information of Government as to the sources whence all the existing dis content had sprung. It was particularly desirable to know whence that resistatwe which so engaged their attention had arisen. Before they went into the Committee and gave their consent to any resolution, it was necessary to know precisely the causes and origin cf the resistance to the levying of tithes. It w?s his belief that this resistance did net sprint.,—and it was his duty to state it was his opinion—that this resistance did not spring in ge neral from any species of exaction and oppression on the party of the clergy.—(Hear, hear.) Such was certainly not the case. The clergy of Ireland exer cised their legal rights with singular disinterestedness and moderation, and they did not by many degrees enforce their legsl rights. He was bound to say that they con ducted themselves with the greatest temper and modera tion. He wiehod to l.e understood as bearing his humble teastiosany to the moderation of the clergy of the Esta blished Church in Armagh. I: appeared, then, that it was not exaction and oppression which caused the resist ance. The clergy took nothing like the tenth part of the produce of the soil. Ile recollected the case of one gen tleman, e. witness, who was examined before the Corns mittee—a gentleman adverse to the collection of tithes,— who, on being examined, stated that he held a farm of 700 acres, which was rated at a rent of 1,0001., and the [ amount eu tithe he paid was 501.—(Hear, hear)—which ; was not above 1-25th of the rent. Supposing the produce to be double of the rent, the tithe, therefore, was not above 1-30th of the produce. In many parishes in Tip perary he believed that the tithes were not 1-14th of the rental; and supposing the produce the double of the 1 rental, that made the tithes only 1-2.9 th. There were seventeen cases of this kind before the Committee. The tithe agent-31r. Palmer, he believed—stated that, in general, the tithes did not exceed the fiftieth part of the produce. In the whole• province of Ulster the exaction was, he believed, still mare moderate. In Tipperary, in the county of Dublin, in the province of Ulster, the tithes were moderate. It was very different, he believed, from the. tithe system of England. If he were not misinformed, it was not unusual here, he believed, to exact a third of the rental. Generally, he might say, the exaction exceeded one-fifth. It was not, therefore, from exaction and op pression ; and he wished this to be clearly understood, in justification of the clergy, and for the better knowledge of the question—he wished it to be clearly understood that the avarice and oppression of the clergy were not the sources whence the resistance had arisen. —(Hear, hear.) Whence, then, did it arise? That was the important question.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Why did he ask this? Because that was the important question for the repre sentatives of the country. It arose, as there arose among the people of England—the sober people of England —at a former period, the period of the Reformation, a new religion, and the people could not be brought to see with patience th it the great mass of the community was of one religion and the Church Establishment of another; that they should be of one creed, and their pastors and moral teachers of another.—(Hear, I ear.) But that was the case of Ireland. There the majority of the people were of one religion, and there the instructors, the moral teachers, and paid clergy, were of another. That was the great blunder which hail been committed. Of all the blunders ever committed by Irishmen, of all their hulls, there was something ludicrous, some stroke of wit, some touch of merriment, some ninth—hut in this Bill there was no redeeming quality ; it had no merriment, no mirth, no laughter, in it. The Establishment was strange to the disposition, and provoked the opposition, of the people. He wished it to be understood, that the opinions of the people were in opposition to the institutions of that ci , untry. That was at the r .ot of this difficult question. That had been, he believed, the source of the difficulties of Ireland through many ceuturies—(Hear, hear)—and the great cause of her crimes, miseries, and distractions.— (Heer, hear, hear.) Other circumstances might have some effect. It was impossible to mingle in society and not perceive that there was a visible, if not a strong cur rent setting in against the payment of any religious esta bliehment maintained by the State.—(Hear, hear.) Such a current had certainly set in against religious establish ments. When did any individual hear a society of ten or twelve persons discussing the merits of religious establishments, and find any one of them maintaining that such establishments should be of the religion of the small minority of the people ?—(Hear, hear.) Such opinions were gaining ground, and were also at the root of this evil. —(Hear, hear.) The people, the whole people nearly, were going one way, and the Church Est iblishrnent an other.—( Hear, hear.) He begged it might be understood that the opposition was not confined to the Roman Cathe.. lies. God knows it wou'd be difficult enough if it only went to that extent. But that was not its limits by any means. What was the opinion of the Presbyterians ? They were a numerous body., and what opinions did they hood as to tithes? Undoubtedly they were one and ail for what was called a free trade in religion. They wished that every man should pay his own Minister, that every man should support his own Church, and not pay for another. That was the sentiment of the great majority of the Presbyterian population of the nothern part of Ire laud. But what was the opinion of the Protestants of the Episcopalians of Ireland ? He sheuld like to know what answer would lie given by the men who were deno minated Protestants of Ireland, if they should be called on to pty the Presbyterian Minister? or who could picture their rzge, should they be called on to pay tithes to the Popish priests?—(Hear, hear.) He believed the sturdy yeoman of the North, on whom such a demand was made, would give them to understand that he bore the King's arms, and that he would not submit to support an institution that he regarded as an injury, and that he would not pay a clergyman from he received no henefit.—( Hear, hear.) He should. think those men justified, and they were, lie believed, generous enough to concede to others the privilege of acting on principles of which they them selves approved. They made considerable allowance, then, for the feelings of their Catholic countrymen, and went along with them to a considerable degree. Whether that was right or not, that was, he believed, the fact. But was the House sure that the Protestants, who were supposed to he most attached to the Government—was the House sure that they wished to maintain the Church Establish ment as it now existed ? Was the House sure that the Protestants were satisfied—that they approved of the dignity assumed by the Bishops, and of the pomp, wealth, and splendour, they exhibited, while the poor working clergy were obliged to put up with the most miserable pittance ? He believed that no man was to be found, and undoubt edly there were but few Protestants, who did not wish to see that the payments in the Established Church were in some measure proportionate to the service performed. The humble curate had been described as rising at six in the morning, to say the morning prayers ; he rose from his dinner to repeat the evening service; he it was who baptized and who married—and for all these labours he received little or nothing. With that system the Pro testants were not satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) Ti e im portant question for the House, then, was, bow would it deal with the Church ? How would it deal with the tithes—how would it deal with the whole question be tween the Church and the people ? Was the Church property to continue as at present distributed ? He did not apprehend that Parliament could give security to the present distribution much longer. Whet, then, was to be done ? Would the Establishment not be better if some proportion were established between the institutions and the opinions of the people ? At least something must be done, and that speedily. The great source of the com plaints and of the mischiefs of Ireland was the lateness of legislation. That which, granted to-day, was received only with gratitude, if delayed till to-morrow was alto gether unfit, and was received with distaste. What was to be done? He believed that he was not stinting any thing but what was publicly known, and he was stating nothing but what had transpired in the Committee ; but he was, he believed, stating an opinion of a dignitary of the Church delivered in the Committee, though, us that dignitary was cross-examined, and he was tint present at the cross-examination, lie would not men tion the name of the individual: and he would not state what he was about to say as the opinion of that dignitary —he would mention it as his own. It was however, suited to the occasion and his sentiments of duty. The question was, what could the House do to meet the difficulty—what practical measure could it adopt ? He would state, then, as his opinion, that respecting ri ghts and ri hts and privileges of every exi st i ng interest--for he would never, for the sake of any reform, sacrifice the right of individuals—but certainly would proceed to consider all ecclesiastical benefices, as they became vacant, at the dis position of the country ; and he would make the applies tion of their revenues as best accorded with the spirit of the country, and with its circumstances.—(Hear, hear..) That was the line of conduct which ought to he adopted to meet the circumstances of the 'case.• As lung as the Church was in opposition to time people, no measure woulo suucced, .1 hey might talk of the danger of illegal combi nations, of resistence to the law, of the danger of the people learning their own power, and of their capability •o resist legil authority ; and all that was undoubtedly done, but for it all there was only one remedy—that of making :he law so as to inure for it the support of the opinions of the people.—( Hear, hear.) But if the Parliament should embark in any scheme of coercion, if it should adopt measures of severity to support the Established Church— that would be a fatal day when it entered upon such mea sures---it would meet with dangers such as it had not yet encountered, for the feelings ot Irishmen never were stronger and never were more unanimous than on this question, and they were guided by good sense, justice, and mo leration.— ( Hear, hear.) What was proposed ? He would say he cau tious—(Haar, hear)—he cautious how you adopt !flea .rea of severity and co• reion• Were there not already measures of severity erraugh ? There were severe liws to compel or recover the payment of tithes • and were other measures more severe to be adopted ? He hoped that at least great caution would be used, for if they enforced severe laws—if they adopted measures of coercion, it was plain that the Governroent and the Parliament would sus tain a signal defeat. He would say one won d more, and that was to entreat the Parliament promptly to apply it self to the subject. He wished that inquiry should he speedily made into the whole subject. He would take upon him to say, that, anxious ashe was to support tithes, and anxious as he was to support the Church Establish ment, he was sure that, not one landlord could claim the tithes as bin; he distinctly renounced for them and himself all claims to tithes ; they were a public revenue, to be dis posed of for the public service. —(Hear, heir.) They were endowments made by the State for the service of re ligion, and for the support of the clergy.—(Hear, hear.) Acting on these principles, and acting on these views, he would sty that so valuable a revenue should not be lost ; that the whole question should now he gone into, and that they should not wa't for the confusion of civil war losing it altogether, but, directing it towards those proper pur poses for which it was already destined, it should now re ceive a popular application.—(Hear.) Tie Hon. Gentle man concluded by moving, " That with a view to a full inquiry into the whole question of tithes, and to the just appropriation of Church property, the debate be adjourned till the whole of the inquiry was concluded by the Tithe Committee, and the evidence and the report were both laid before the House." Mr. SHELL rose to second the motion, but gave way to I Lord MILTON, who expressed himself sorry to inter pose between his Hon. Friend and the Learned Gentleman ; but he wished to obssrve, that the suggestion of his Hon. Friend dill not seem likely to attain the object he had in view. He doubted the expediency of his Hon. Friend's motion for postponing the debate, and thought it would he better to allow the House to go into a Committee. A stranger who had heard the speech only of his Hon. Friend might have supposed that his Right Hon. Friend had proposed only measures of coercion and severity, and that they no re not accompanied by any propositions for relief. He did not know what those measures were, but he thought it most desirable to postpone the discussion till they got into He Committee.—(Hear, hear.) If the Committee adopted the suggestion of his Right Hon. Friend, they might hear the proposition of Government. He would not go into the question ; he merely wished to throw out the suggestion that his Hon. Friend's amend ment did not seem to him so well adapted to attain his own object as the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend, Mr. O'CONNELL was not precisely ignorant of the measures to be proposed by the Government, as they hid been made known through the report, and he and his friends did not oppose the motion because they did not wish to bear those propositions, but because they thought there was not sufficient knowledge obtained to go into the subject. They knew that one of the measures to b e pro. posed by the Government wis to remunerate the clergy. To that he and his friends did not object. The next was to recover the dues, and to that they did not object ; but there were ulterior measures—measures of coercion and severity—and to those they objected. The Irish Represen tatives bad supported and praised the Government last year, because, when the country was in a state of distur bance, it had asked for no extraordinary powers ; and he could not supp,ise them now to he required, when the country was in a state of armed neutrality. They could now lead to no satisfactory conclusion. He thought ihe information was not yet sufficient to adopt any measures, and he should support the amendment. Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested that there would be a great advantage in separating their views, as to the order of proceeding, and as to the discussion of the principles of the proposition to be submitted by the Government. There was a mixed discussion of two questions, and till they were separated they could reach no satisfactory con clusion. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last thought it would be better if his Majesty's Government would come forward with a distinct proposition.—(Hear, hear.) In his opinion it would be more satisfactory if his Majes ty's Government were enabled to state their proposition in Committee, and for the House to dispose of it on its own merit, and avoid all discussion as to the form of proceed ings. The question was, what course was most conform able to the usage and practice of the House ? and on offer ing his opinion on that, he gave no opinion on the merit of the propositions to be submitted to the Committee. Reserving bis opinion nn them till the proper time came when they were proposed by the Government, he must sly ih it the course proposed by the Government was most conformable to the usage of the House. It was supposed that one part of these propositions was to vote money for the support of the clergy. If that be the case, as it is impossible that his Majesty's Government can make any propositions of that kind, except in Committee, it surely would be inconvenient to discuss one part of the propel ticin in Committee, and the other part while the Speaker oas in the Chair. There was also a standing order of the House--an order to provide a security against any sudden change in the religious establishments of the country, that no business relating to religion, or to the laws concerning religion, should ever be brought before the Hou-e till after it hail been considered in Committee and agreed to. He did not say that the propositions of the Government re lated precisely to religion, yet they were so connected scith it, that it might be doubted whether it ought not first to he considered in Committee. Besides, going into a Com mit tee was an additional security against surprise. By as senting to the Speaker leaving the Chair, Hon. Members pledged themselves to nothing; and though the resoles tions might be approved of in Committee, the House might reject them on bringing up the report. It afforded, therefore, an additions! opportunity for discussion, and he considered that Loth friends and fees might concur in the course proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman. Going into the Committee was but a preliminary step ; it , gave no advantage, and was only a security against preci pitate discussion.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SHEIL—The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) has become the auxiliary of the Government. This does him credit, and affords proof, if any was wanting, how much superior he is to the prejudices of party. He would not —he was shove it—turn the Government round upon a point of form. A little reflection would convince him that the Irish Members were not unreasonable in the course they had adopted. They did not object to the re solutions, like the Noble Lord (Milton); they had not sufficient sagacity to conjecture the course which the Government meant to take. They objected to the pre mature report of which the Committee bad been suddenly and abortively delivered.—(Hear.) They thought that no legislation should be founded on this precocious docu ment. Wait, they said, for the final report.--(Hear.) Therefore they met the proposition of the Minister on the threshold, and said, " Do not act on a report resting ex clusively on evidence on one side." How stood the facts? First, the Government had injudiciously introduced the tithe system. Reform was a labour sufficiently Herculean for their gigantic powers. Their next mistake was the ex clusion of Catholics from the Committee. This was un fortunate enough ; but to give consummation to this calamitous proceeding, out of eighteen witnesses, they had examined only one Catholic witness—(Hear)—and then they produced their report, and went on with their examination. It was as if the Jury were desired to retire on the closing of the plaintiff's case; they find their ver dict, judgment (the report) is pronounced, and then the defendant (Ireland) was requested to proceed with her ease.—(Cbeers.) Was this just--was this fair dealing? Wise . this pure, impartial British justice? Ei g ht clergymen, four policemen, a Secretary to an Ec clesiastical Commission, a Registrar to an Ecclesiastical Court, had been examined, and on such evidence a report, recommending coercion to the people, and largesses to the clergy, was produced.—(Hear.) This was monstrous. If the Committee had confined themselves to the recommendation of charity to the clergy, the Irish Members could net complain ; but they came here with a purse of gold for the Church, and a rod of iron for the people.—(Hear, hear.) But since you are so strict in investigating the offences of the one, what are the merits of the other? The evidence proves that the clergy have ministered to the excitement. Look at the evidence of Mr. Langrishe (a name familiar to the readers of Edmund Burke); he tells you that Dr. Hamilton, of Knockto pher (the scene of sanguinary disturbance), refused a just composition, and refused twice to produce his books, in order to enable a just estimate of his profits to be made. Dr. Butler hints that he is a starving exile; yet he admits that for thirty-six years he has received 2,0001. a year. He has fourteen parishes, with scarcely a single Protes tant. This splendid sinecurist—be rosy be a good man--e 1113 got 60,0001. ; and he is one of the objects of eleerno• synary commiseration to the Committee.—(Hear, hear.) There is evidence that by a pious fraud the clergy have availed thetnselve of the change of currency. Mr. Dwyer states that the people are the victims of the most horrible oppression. Will you relieve the Church, and give no aid to the p ople ? But you arc to raise time arrears. Mr. Lengrishe, a clergyman, tells you that you cannot raise them. The thing is to raise the arrears. The Lord Lieutenant (the gallant and high-minded Anglesea) is to he turned into a Tithe-Pt oetor- General of the Church. You are to shift the odium of tithes from the clergy, who are to receive the bent fit, to the Executive, which is to reap all the detestation.—(Hear.) There will be cause and cross cause in the Civil Bill Court ; we shall have the King versus time People, and in the tribunal of public opinion you will have the P: ople versus the King. Infatuated men, what are you doing? Look before you—you are w a lki ng mi n :11 0 1d upon the brzek of a gulf. You will s exasperate Irel reel ; you will array the nation against you ; then will come a general election in November ; Reform will have thrown the close boroughs opon ; the democracy will have bscome gigantic; then will the people have their revenge.—(Hear.) The poisoned chalice will, in just re tribution, return to your own lips. It is your turn this Session, but it will be ours the nest.—(Bear, hear.) What are you doing? Succouring a clergy from which you expect nothing,—affronting and irritating a nation from which you look for much—opening the boiling foun tain of popular indignation—leaguing a n ition against you by your threats of coercion. We have served and supported you, and stood by you in many an emergency, and have received your praise for our zeal, our vigilance, our devotion to your interests ; but, alas ! what can we do for you in the hurricane of popular passion, which you are about hi raise? Our voices in your behalf will be like whispers in a tempest ; our arms are not strong enough to swim against the title that knows no returning ebb, and if we attempt it we shall be swept before it. Reform, an lelection in November, and Ireland exusperated for the sake of certain persons of the Establishment ! Awake—you are on a precipice, anti you must he rudely shaken to ' raise you from your perilous slumbers.—(Hear, hear.) But he might be told that relief was offered. What re• lief? It is a mere mockery of the national understand ing. Tithes are to be abolished. flow ? By providing for them a sepulchre from which they are to arise in an immortal resuscitation. Nay, he did not exaggerate. We are informed that tithes are to be abolished, and noo ft au, that the revenues of the Church are to be effectually secured on land. What does this mean ? Is it not a palpable contradiction? or is it not as if a judgment cre ditor were to say, " Sir, this judgment of mine may be incommodious, and in order to accommodate you, I shall oblige you by taking a mortgage, or if you prefer it, a slice of your estate ?"—(Cheers.) Is it not so? Du you call this relief? Relief! Pray content yourselves with a violation of our rights, and do not offer an insult to our ordinary sense. It is better to speak out at once. The collection of tithes is not the question ; the amount of tithes is not the question—John Hampden was sent to gaol for 203.—(Cheers)—but the question is, shall the tithes be otherwise appropriate I? I tell you that a deep conviction has seized hold of the nation's faculties, and taken possession of its entire heart, that Church property is the nation's property. It is idle to tell the people that it rests on the same right as private property, and that an inroad upon one will afford a precedent for an invasion of the other. This is mere phrase—gainless and empty apo thegms—with which we are not to be caught. I'll tell you how matters stand. The Irish nation look back to their history, and they find tithes originally divi led into four parts, of which one-fourth was given to the poor, and ano ther fourth was given to the priest of the poor.—(Cheers.) They find the Protestant gentry and aristocracy leagued in 1735 against the tithe of agistinent, and pronouncing their Parliamentary anathemas against all those who should, in violation of their ordinances, dare to pay it— they nee the Statesmen of their House of Commons (for once they had a House of Commons), the best and most enlightened Irishmen, confederated against tithes—they behold time pinnacles of the Establishment shivered by the lightnings of Grattan's eloquenc •—they look round Eu rope, and they see tithes everywhere abolished—in France, in Belgium, in Holland, in Sweden, in Norway, in Den mark, in Prussia. in Tuscany, in Scotland—they see in Scotland a poor Church in a rich country, anti in Ireland a rich Church amidst a starving people; and with these facts he'ore them, and with the recollection fresh and vivid of what they have themselves achieved—conscious of what was effected by a virtuous organization—knowing that here they hail a body of firm and dauntless advo cates of their rights,—they have arrived at the determination to put to these hideous abuses, those enormous anomalies, an immediate end.-( Hear, hoar, hear.) This may not be— I perceive it is not—relisired by either party ; but it is the truth. To both parties I fearlessly address myself; con servatists and reformers, I ape .1s to both of you ; you that are the prompt auxiliaries of the Government in every project of coercion—you that are to have none of the re sponsibility, are to reap all the advantage—(Hear, hear.) Yani that would fain help the Ministers to their ruin, think a little, and look back to the year 1529. What did your great Captain do—he who was pledged almost from ehielhood against emancipation•—he who had declared that Ireland ought to be reconquered—he who left his proxy against Ireland, when he went forth to fight those battles in which English victory was achieved with Irish blood—lie was the first to offer homage to the will of an united people, and after having called on England to throw away time scabbard, was the first to implore her to put by the sword. Wherefore do I mention this ? To ask of you (for Torit s, I speak to you) whether you think that the Whigs ought after emancipation to act on the principle o n which you did not dare to act before it?—(Cheers.) Reformers, I turn from ) our antagonists to you. Do you imagine that your principles do not extend beyond a Re form in the House of Commons? What course did you pursue in the conduct of this great proceeding; ? Did you appoint a Committee? Did you refer schedule A to the Right Hon. Member for Tamworth ? Did you name a Committee formed of all patties (this is time phrase), to inquire into the state of the boroughs of England, and the constitution of the House of Commons, and to " re port their observations thereon ?" No—you saw that hesitation for a moment would be ruin for ever—you grasped at the irrevocable occasion, and you seized and. held it. "We must content the English people." This was your answer to every objection. If it was urged - that the Lord Chancellor had digested a very , different plan of Reform, you replied, and well and nobly, it is too late—we twist content the Eng lish people. If it was said that Lord John Russell's hook was at variance with Lord John Russell's Bill, still you answered, we must content the people of England. If it was said that the representatives of the colonies would be excluded—that the avenues by which Pitt, and Fox, and Burke, had obtain e d a d m i ss i on to t hi s H ouse wou ld h e c l ose d against genius —that the present system had saved the coun try at the Revolution, and had been concomitant a ith its glory since, still you well and wisely answered, we must conform to the great change and transition which has taken place, and must content the people; and if this be true, as it beyond all doubt is true,—if you find it necessary to content the English people, by a Reform in the Parlia ment, is it perfectly unnecessary, is it matter fir consider ation, scepticism, and Cabinet debates, whether you must not content the Irish people upon the Church ?—(Cheers.) Take warning in time—what is your policy ? You have got up a race between legislation and events; an incident happens, straight comes an Act of Parliament ; another in cident arrives, behold a Committee, and another Act of Parliament ; thus you go on, running a race with events, • and events are sure to win it. Awake, for God's sake !to .a sense of the condition of Ireland ; embrace her evils in one large and comprehensive system of immediate amelioration; l e t us not have (to use a p h ra s e of su c h p owerful homeli ness, uttered with such a pregnant familiarity, by lips so touched with fire)—let us not here " a hit-by-bit Reform," lay not that unction to your souls—do not burn that in cense which self-adulation offers to itself, or not hope conceives, nor so fir delude yourselves as to think that, by dallying with the evils of Ireland, by procrastinations, and putting off, and sometimes giving buffets, and sometimes offering curresses to Ireland, you can affect her tranquillisa tion, and, he should rather say, that you can save the c For it has come to this pass ; and it i.e—(Beat'.) tells you this ; events—these tongue our prejudices aside,. to legislate not on the views eloquent monitors--call on . you, as they pass, to t but on the . principles of human nature, and from :sh o ofsr u i:op t o i wa t t butr.tyhyry the c alamities that impend upon us, to rescue that country, which, under all changes of Government, and all vicissi tudes of party, appears to have been predisposed to dis traction, and predestined. to misrule.—(Cheers.) 111 r. WALLACE objecteito the course proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary, because . it was impossible for the In fair dealing, and according to the what it former Governments, the Right Hon. bound to let the House know for what opG I a o e u t otso precedentsene to ico ern k d s n ewne o .tht a w n:. reason it was to go into a Committee of the whole House on a part of a question which was still under the consi deration of a Special Co mm i ttee . He would put it, in deed, to the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it was right they should go into that Committee without knowing what they were to he pledged to by assenting to mirth a c ourse? There was, indeed, enough in the history of the practice of the House on former occasions, to demonstrate that the Right Hon. Gentleman was not warranted i* on them to go into a Comtnittee without some ex planation. The Government had committed a mistake, but it was not the first they had been guilty of in con nection with the question. They had,-19 it was rightly observed by the Right Hon. Baronet, the M-mber fear Tamworth,—been guilty of an error in alluding to the sub ject in the Speech from the Throne, without being pre pared with some specific proposition to submit to their immediate consideration. The next mistake they hat fallen into was the appointment of a Committee which, al though composed of men of the highest capacity and un doubted worth anti honour, did not include a single Ca tholic—( Hear, hear)—a single member of that religious party which was so deeply interested in the result of thiir inquiries. The members of the Committee were at the same time men so devotedly attached to the Constitution in Church and State as it stood—the majority of them were so thoroughly convinced that the property of the Church was as inalienable as any other property in the State,—that their recommendations could not be looked on with confidence or saisfaction by the people of Ireland. (Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had made out no case for the Committee for which he vked, nor had he given the House any explanation as to the nature of the measures which he intended to call on that Committee to approve. But if it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to propose resolutions which should be made the foundation of coercive measures, without at the same time recommending the removal of the grievances which oppressed the Irish people, he (Mr. Wallace) would oppose such resolutions, because the compact would be broken by which the Government had pledged themselves that they would adopt no measitre of co-rcion unaccom panied by measures of reme:ly and conciliation.—( Hear, hear.) He could Lot have supposed that, atter the Mini sters had so pledged themselves, they would have come down that night with a proposition tin- going into Com mittee, not fur the remedy of grievances, but solely to pledge the House to a measure of coercion. —(Hear, hear.) Amongst the witnesses examined by the Committee, whose re port had been laid on the table, was the Rev. Dr. Doyle; and that gentleman,—than whom there was no man who brought to the consideration of the question greater ability, a more honest judgment, or more accurate knowledge of the condition and of the feelings of the people of Ireland,— said, in reference to the resistance of tithe., that he would rather give up his last table, his last chair, or even his life, than pay tithts —(Hear, bear.) Such was the opi nion of that gentleman. But, he added, that the resist ance which he would offer to their payment would be passive, not active; and that the people for the moat part would offer none other. Was the testimony of that gentle man of no value? and was it fit that it should be withheld from the House ?—(Hear.) Was it fit that they should be called on to legislate on so important a subject when they had before them no part of the evidence that had been taken respecting it? Would the House grant the Committee whilst it was in the dark as to the measures which the Right Hsneurahle Gentleman meant to submit to it, and as to the evidence upon which those measures were founded ?—(Cheers.) The only means which the House at present possessed of forming an opinion as to the in tended propositions of the Right Hon. Gentleman were furnished by the report of the Committee ; and to judge of them from that, be (Mr. Wallace.) would say, that evils incalculable might follow from the course width the Ricbt Hon. Gentlemsn was taking. He apprehended that there was in the report an exact specification of the measures which he (Mr. Stanley) intended to propose. He ap prehended that it was intended to give the clergy a re medy against tie persons of those who neglected or re fused to pay tithes, and to give that remedy, riot accord ing to the usual form of the law, but by a summary pro cess, upon the affidavit of the clergyman claiming the tithe, or of the tithe proctor — Mr. STANLEY reminded the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he was somewhat irregular in going into the discussion of a question which was not before the House. Besides, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was stating as the measure of the Government that which was not their measure.—(Cheers.) Mr. WALLACE thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for having set him right. But if he bad followed the I usual course in moving for the Committee, he (Mr. Wal lace) would not have fallen into error.—(Hear.) He was compelled to argue without documents, which ought to have been before the House when the Right Hon. Gentle man made his motion. But in the absence of the infor mation which be ought to have, he woulo be satisfied to hear a statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman would make the state ment, he (Mr. Wullace) would sit down cheerfully to hear it. (Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") From all the informa tion which he possessed, he must infer that it was the in • tention of the Government to act upon the advice of their legal advisers in Ireland, who, in their evidence before the Committee, had stated that it was necessary to give the clergy a personal remedy against those who refused to pay tithes.—(Hear.) Mr. H. GRATTAN regretted that he was obliged to oppose his Majesty's Ministers on the question before the House. But they were wrong in going into the Com mittee without having first given the House an intimation of the measures which they would propose ; and they were still more wrong in the measures, which, it was to he supposed, from the only information before the House, they intended to adopt. He objected altogether to the re commendations of the Committee in their report. He objected to the summary remedy which they proposed to give to the clergy against those who owed tithe, and he objected to the plan which they proposed to substitute for the present system of tithes. He was sure that such a plan would give no satisfaction to the people of Ireland, and he, for his part,would support no plan less effectual than that of his Noble Friend the Member for Armagh. There never was a report—even in the times when the most virulent party spirit raged, and the must virulent party had power—there never was a report returned to the House more pregnant with mischief than that of the last Tithe Committee.—(Cheers.) The gracious Speech of his Majesty at the opening of the session recommended the removal of grievances; and how was that recommendation followed up ? By a report which recommended that the law of the land should be superseded ; and that a process as arbitrary as that of martial law should be substituted in its stead.—(Cheers.) Did the Right Hon. Gentleman suppose that the people of Ireland were so ignorant of the history of their country—so ignorant of their own rights— that they would lie down quietly in submission to such a measure ? The gentlemen of Ireland could never fare their constituents if they consented to go into a Committee for the purpose of confirming a report which recommended, amongst other things scarcely less unjust, that the landlords of Ireland should be made the collectors of a tax for the support of the parochial clergy only, and ml for the ori ginal purposes of tithes —the support of the poor, the Church, the Bishop, and the incumbent.—(Hear, hear.) For his part, he would pay the money out of his own purse, or he would consent to a tax upon his land for the relief of the distressed clergy, if that tax were to be ap plied to the original purposes of tithe, upon the demise of the present incumbents.—(Cheers.) Lord EBRINGTON would not follow the Hen. Gen tleman who last addressed the House through the whole range of his observations; but, as a Member of the Com mittee, he felt called upon to state the grounds upon which he had agreed to the report which had been presented to the House. Before he proceeded to do so. he wished to state, that in one observation only of his Hon. Friend be low him (Mr. Brownlow) he entirely concurred ; that is, respecting the unfortunate anomaly which the Church of o l u sv g oh 1 chiefly i edni s r reform Ireland presented.—(Hear, hear.) Ile would not think d anything a final settlement of the question which attempted t echti onel he saw rtuu e sgera x rdy: : h l t u fot exclude ahratteelht therefore, oeilui c :nuse o aedr n : s so—aha i d inar e r(see r rutc a li ettgesiii Ireland.—(Hear, winng o .ehr f b e o 'r y p n saw ß rt o o i ol Roman a e theh n e f e e a s a a r pi t . a h a ) r o i to the number of Protestants under their care ; and when Catholics, he looked upon the system as pregnant with uTn ( h H er ea o r ; so disproportionate to their congregations; and he should be glad to see some Inure just distribution of the revenues thel ea r clergy Using the Church, such as would afford a more adequate provision for the working clergy—(Hear]—and be ebould also be glad to see a state of things in which no part of the revenues of the Church would be diverted Isom the use of the Church.—(Hear, hear.) lie could thin k no settlement of the existing complaints satisfactory, which, with a due regard to all existing interestms--an f of God forbid that they should attempt to strip A anyntemplate that which of right belonged to him) —di- not cuodition bet the reduction of the Church of Ireland to acondition inhabi ter proportioned to the wants of the Prot e stantthe many ' dependently o tants.— (Hear, bear.) But, in any immediate obstructions which stood in the way o thought that desirable ends, he . arrangement for those so within the province of such an arrangement did not COMIC is not the wish of the the Select Committee. It certainly at present belong- Committee that any part of the revenue ockets of the lead ing to the Church should go into thelempen in that House lords; and he would ask the Gent who were connected with Ireland, whether it was not the wish of a great proportion o f those who encouraged the present resistance to tithes , toappropriate the amount to the Member for themselves? Now his lion. Friend,Ar magh, had admitted that the Protestant clergy in Ireland were placed in a lowa • tion of great difficulty and distress, and even of danger; and, under those circumstances, it was not too much that the Committee should have recom mended a law to enable them to recover so much of tltd tithes now due to their, as the Attornay-Genctal for hea , and should think to be necessary for their support. If his Majesty's Ministers had shown any disposition to ad ipt coercive measures, without substituting for the tithe sys tem some other leas rexatieua, he would not have given them his support. But be had done so, in a confident hope that it would not be necessary to use any-new powers that should be given ; but that liberal inducements would be held tett to the people to pay the tithes now is arrear, without the necessity, on the part of the Government, of having recourse to any severities. It was with that view he bad agreed to the report of the Committee.— ( Hear.) Under all the circumstances, he did not think that Ministers would have dine their duty, if they did not pledge thems e lv e s to measures of conciliation and relief at the same time that they called for powers to put down the combination.—(Hear.) Lord ALTHORP said that his Hon. Friend, the Mem ber for Armagh, and other Gentlemen, bad argued not upon the propositions which it was intended to submit to the Committee, but upon what they supposed to be those propositions ; and they expressed their views in rather. strong language. Now they ought not to have done that until they heard the propositions. But the most extraor dimity statement was that which same Gentlemen !tad male as to the effect of going into Committee. Some Gentlemen said, that by consenting to the Committee they would pledge themselves to concur in the propositions which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr Stanley) had to sub mit. There was no mts:+n to suppose any such thing. It had also been s.i.i, that it was the usual course, in ask ing for a Committee, to state the resolutions which it was intended to propose. That also he denied. It was true th it when a Commit-ee of the whole House was moved for respecting the Catholic Claims, the Gentleman who made the motion explained his views at the same time. But there was no analogy b. tween the two cases ; for, on the Catholic Question a large proportion of the Members of that H muse were strongly opposed to any alteration in the laws affecting the Roman Catholics, and it was there fore necessary for the Government who applied for the Committee to convince the House that some alteration was expedient. But, in the present case, the Gentlemen who opposed the motion for a Committee of the whole House were the very persons who most insisted on the necessity of an alteration. (Hear.) They were the last per sons he should have thought, who would object to the ferm and course of proceeding. But there was another objection, which he considered to have much more weight. Teat was, -that the House ought not to proceed without further information than it at present possessed. That was an ere ument which he thought it was his duty to meet. Now what was the objection to the present information? First, that it was ex parte: that the Committee had ex atointd only one side, and that the persons examined were connected with the Established Church. But he thought that the information received from those persons was sufficient to induce Ministers to submit to a Committee of the whole House some propositions for a change of the present system; and that the information ought to be• so tar satisfactory to the advocates of a change.—(Hear.) It had been proved that the clergy were in the greatest distress, and that there was the greatest difficulty in col lecting tithes ; that a combination to resist the pay ment of tithes existed in one part of Ireland, and was spreading- over the whole country; and that if a change did not teke place, the payment of the revenues of the clergy would cease throughout Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was proven', therefore, that the state of things was such as to make a change of system necessary. Under those circumstances, therefore, he thought that the in formation on the table of the House was sufficient to mike it the imperative duty of the House to consider what re medies ought to be adopted. But, undoubtedly, previous to the change of system which was necessary, and which must be provided by inquiry and deliberation, there existed a pressing and urgent necessity for immediate action.— ( Hear.) Was it to be said, then, that when the necessity was pressing and urgent, they (the Ministers) ought to defer the remedy, because they had not an extended mea sure ready to propose for the consideration of the House ? Th it would he as unwise and improper a course—as in c n intent with the duty of the House, as he was sure it would be inconsistent with the honour and the duty of any Government, to apply for measures to coerce the people without giving at the saute time a specific pledge that re- Fel would be afforded.—(Hear, hear.) He had not risen to follow the Hon. Gentlemen who opposed the Com mittee through all their arguments respecting the general question, but only to state the reasons wherefore he thought that time House ought to go into Committee. Mr. LEADER said that the Irish Members felt it to be their duty to put upon record that they protested against lily new measure for the collection of tithes, unaccompanied by a specific pledge that the whole system should be re fienied.—(ll-aar, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Stanley) had done that which no Secretary would dare to do to an English House of Commons on an English question, in calling for a Committee of the whole House, without stating either the grounds upon which he applied for it, or the measures for which he intended to call for its approbation. For his part, he (Mr. Leader) would not object to relieving the clergy, who were really distressed ; but he could not help thinking that the die tress was much exaggerated, when he considered, that out of a revenue of 800,0001. a year, which the Protestant Clitirch in Ireland possessed, the arrears amounted only to 80,0001.—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances, he did not think that a case had been made out for their re lief out of the revenue of the State, much less for arming them with coercion and penal laws.—(Hear.) The oppo sition to the payment of tithes was confined to three dio ceses ; but it was proposed to extend the penal law to all Ireland. Yet in those three dioceses—Ossory, Cashel, and Leiehliu—there were 378 parishes of whict, the tithes were enjoyed by fifty individuals ; and, of those distressed clergymen, one had been for a long time in receipt of the tithes of fourteen parishes, and others of nine parishes each. Sir 11. PARNELL said he never knew an instance of a proposition to go into Committee, .upon any subject whetevtr, without the individual Member who made the proposition for going intoCinntnitt t e coming forward, and explicitly stating the grounds upon which he called upon the 1-louse to take that step, and, at the same time, fully developing to the House the plan which he meant to call upon them to pursue. That w:s the course of proceeding adopted upon the Catholic Question, and he recom mended Hon. Members to require it upon the present oc. p p n vigour oreuiysrh would.,a,A:nehlinrtaelemtibseacbou: Member tobirpehtrvoowooirur, opportunity _aoylnli,ltiytwny couldaiitgoyi-fi, casion ; fur, if they did not, they would lose One oppor eepgsreltooysv'teseheGHovoeursnemteonta.rmiHnge tnnity of stopping that which they conceived to be a base measure. He was thoroughly convinced that the measure which he had reason to su ludldw for- War.t ruinous.w was s W o h n y e , w th h e i n c , h sh ‘ o v t t : voting against it? It was in vain that they endeavoured to shut their eyes to the fact that stared them in the face ; h iGn ita tvi t le e ar v tn e ri Government s m ew, i n i z tt i l l ili l e y y t i ignorant, nw,uwaisdaesd 0 i. ig norant of the plan of his A p i le a d j for one had heard the resolutions which had been moved in anoth. r place ; and if similar resolutions were adopted the view of coercing the people of Ireland, and com pelling them to pay tithes. 11 was . not opposed to . relief to t h e clergy which their present condi tiongivine that demanded. There re payment to the Government —that t rthat the meansl%" the real question. by which that ob ject he really thought eff • d ecte would not succeed. They be opposed to that part of the plan bat ; , but the anode of ' had the most distinct proof . in the evidence given be ittee that it could nut succeed. To his fore the Comm ject was ce was knowledge that evidep !lost correct. He entertained slightest doubt that it would not succeed ; there not the one of the forty or fifty Irish Members who s was not __ up vernment would tell the Right Hon. Gen tleman the Government I ) the had the slightest chance of success. tleman that plan . resold just ask the Right Hon. Gentleman --was there any He of hi s Irish supporters who gave him the slightest encou ragement to proceed ? The present was, indeed, a serious case, and one which could not be trifled with; and how did it stand ? The Right Hon. Gentleman brought for ward a measure for the relief of the Irish people, and every one of his Irish supporters in that House was opposed to proposed to it. He thought that th t very fact of itself ought to satisfy t h e Right Hon. Gentlern in that he had much better have waited until he could lay the entire report and all the evi dence upon the tabl e o f t h e Muse. Mr. J. GRATTAN regretted the necessity of voting against his Majesty's Government. The Right Hon. Gen tleman seemed to think that his plan must succeed, but he (Air. G.) was quite of a different opinion. He was a m mber of the Committee, and he had not the slightest difficulty in saying that there was nothing like sufficient evidence to support the case which the Right Hon. Gen tleman thought essential to thesuccess of his plan. No man could doubt that the clergy were entitled to the protection of the law, but it was equally certain that there was not sufficient evidence to entitle the clergy to that amount of neir ica ply ti i e n ng, a to s a Parliament. pr precedent Parliamentary r e li e f w hi c h i t was understood would be proposed. Not th a t h e o bj ecte d to their relief; but this he did think, that so me means oug h t to be devised for obviating fraught with danger. There wa s not hi ng that would satisfy the people of Ireland but a tot a l c h ange in the appropria tion of the revenue derivable fro m t i t h e. cedent , w H a e s thought thati' necessity e such cety an of application, applying Mr. STANLEY, looking at the time of night, felt that it would be impossible for, him to do that which he should have wished to do, had he been permitted, natesely e —So lay before the House in one view the plans, intentions,