The Sun. — London, England, 1832-06-29 00:00:00

military tribunal. On one occasion a paper was found in 1 the jury-box in Sydney, in which it was asked why seven officers should be kept kicking their heels for seven hours on the case of a rascally convict ?—(Hear) A system f this sort should uo longer be continued, for indeed it pie him pain to say that the life of prisoners was not safe before a military jury. It was now somewhat doubtful if con victs would any longer be sent to New South Wales; and yet he feared objections would be made to altering the old and barbarous system which bad so long prevailed in that colony.—[Here the Hon. Member referred to the evidence taken before the Transportation Committee in 1811, from which it appeared Governor Hunter, Mr. Commissary- General Palmer, Governor Bligh, the late Judge-Advocate, Mr. Bent, all concurred in expressing their opinion, not only that trial by (civil) jury should be established in New South Wales, but there were a sufficient number of respect able persons in the colony who were every way qualified for the office of jurymen.)—With regard to the point of repre sentation he thought there could be but one opinion as to the necessity of having some mode struck out by which th people of that colony could assist in maturing the regula tions for their own necessities. He did not go the length of saying that a representative assembly could be firmed there at once, but be thought that something like one might he established. The immense distance of New South Wales from the parent country rendered this sti.l more nece-sary. If taxes and population were to be taken as the fair basis of representation, sure'y the population of that settlement, which was every day increasing, coupled with its taxation, entitled it to he in some way represented. The taxes paid by New South Wales were more than 100,0001. a year, being more than was paid by the whole ['sited States previously to the declaration of their inde pendence. The Hon. Member went ioto a statement to show the peculiar claims which this colony ha-1 to have a representation ; and if this was once established he was confi , lent it would correct many of the abuses and anomalies which existed there. What, he would ask, could justify or explain the proceedings carried on against the Press ? As an instance he would mention the case of Mr. Holt, who had five sentences pronounced against him by military tribunals, whilst be was at the same time receiving damages in the same cases in a court of civil jurisdiction. What he asked for this colony was nothing more than was recommended in 1812 and 1823, and what had been approved and recommended by some of the ablest statesmen in the country. The Hon. Mem ber then moved for an address to extend trial by jury and the representative system to New South Wales. Mr. ROBINSON seconded the motion. The SPEA rEg having put the question, Lord HOWICK said when General Bourke went out as Governor of New South Wales he had instructions to obtain information respecting the propriety of allowing trials by jury in that colony. On this point there had been much contradictory evidence, and the Governor was desired to report his opinion ; and he was likewise autho rized, if his opinion should be favourable to the change, to inform the colonists that the Government at home would extend that j.rivilege to them. The result of the Governor's inquiry was, that he thought the change ought to take piece, and he had announced it to the colonist., who, in the course of the next year, would have the benefits of trial by jury. Government was preparing necessary authorities, which should be sent out as soon as convenient. This statement, he hoped, would be a sufficient answer to one part of the Hon. Member's motion. As to the secrnd point, in which he called, not for a representative assembly, but for something like it, it was difficult for him Howick) to distinguish what the Hon. Member exactly in. ant. He was rather ineined to think that the Hon. Member wished for a representative body, and he should therefore address himself to that point. The Hon. M,mher seemed to have left the real difficulty un touched. He did not seem to have taken into his con sideration the great difference which existed between vo luntary emigrants and convicts. It was well known that great jealousy existed between emancipists and free settlers. The Hon. Gentleman ought to have shown whether of not the emancipists were to be admitted to the exercise or the proposed franchise. He (Lord Howick) must infer that • uch was the object of the motion, and be believed it would be considered by the House as a startling proposi tion, particularly when he stated what a paramount in terest that body would have under a representative system. In 1828 ti e number of free persons and free settlers in the colony was only 4 ; 454 males above twelve years of age, whilst the number of emancipists was 6,137, and of convicts there were 14,155. Since that time, when the last census was taken, there had been sent out to the colony (1,889 convicts, which was far greater than the number of free settlers. Thus the increase ~f the emancipists was likely to become even still greater than the increase of free settlers. To show how troublesome it was to deal with some of those lie would merely mention that Mr. Girard, of whose dis putes with General Darling so much had been said, bad formerly been a respectable pickpocket in London, front whence he ha.,l been transported in 1821 for stealing a watch, and in 1831 be was a great contractor in New South Wales. The emancipists had not only increased in numbers, but had also acquired property; and under a ' representative system in that colony they would form the far greater portion of the elected as well as the elective body. Now he would ask if the House was prepared to throw the power of the colony into such hands ? If they - were, one thing he would answer for was, that whatever body controlled the representative assembly, would soon assume the government of the whole colony. He viewed with horror the increase of crime; but he attributed that increase to the great number of male convicts who had been sent out, and not to the want of a representative government, or the severity of the military juries. Aka sores had been taken to diminish crime, and one of those measures was to send out 600 females. Free settlers bad also been encouraged. He admitted that the revenue col lected in Van Dietnen's Land was large, but it was not oppressive. One of the largest items was derived from a ditty on spirits, and it was well known that an inordi nate use of ardent spirits was one of the chief causes of crime in that colony. The Hon. Member bad made out no case. He had not shown one instance of legislative abuse. Besides, there were many checks upon power. Every Act, before it was passed, was regular's promu'gated through the colony, and that through the medium of an entirely free Press. But then the Hon. Member said there had been partiality in the administr e tion of the government. Why, if that charge were just, it was no fit foundation for the desires of the Hon. Mem ber. But it was not just. General Darling had been most scandalously aspersed. That officer had not so con. eucted himself as to be justly obnoxious to the attacks made upon him. He (Lord Howick) did not mean to say that he had inquired into every charge against General Darling; but he had inquired into many, and found them all groundless. General Darling bad been placed in a most difficult situation, and he bad well acquitted himself. The Government had now done away with grants of land. A free sale by public competition was adopted, and there could no longer be a charge of favouritism. With respect to the distribution of convicts, that point was not so easily arranged. Some steps, however, had been taken, and they were calculated to prevent the imputation of f avouritism. Then the Hon. Member had given another reason why a legislative assembly should be given to the colony, and that reason was the impossibility of the truth of charges being arrived at in this country. That was a most extraordinary reason. In the colony there was a free Press, and it was fully used ; and he was decidedly of opinion that the merits of cases were now truly known. lie therefore must oppose the motion as unnecessary. Mr. WARBURTON went through a statement of the prosecutions instituted against Mr. Hall, and contended that some alterations were necessary. In his opinion a legislative assembly would have the desired e ff e ct. Mr. DIXON contended that the colony of New South Wales was well entitled to a representative government. After a few words from Mr. Stanley, Mr. O'Connell, Lord Howick, and Mr. Hunt, Mr. BURGE would support the motion before the House upon very many grounds, but upon none more strongly than the experience which the country had had that the colonies possessing legislative assemblies were ;invariably better and more e conomically governed than those which were not possessed of such an institution. TI e expenditure of all colonies which bad any thing like a free legislative assembly had been uniformly found less than the expenditure of the colonies that were denominated Crown colonies. He thought every argument used by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Howick) particularly fallacioue; for if Ministers were not prepared to give the colony a legislative assembly, in the full and free acceptation of the term, they might, at least, try the experiment upon a confined on partial scale. They might, for instance, in troduce into the existing Executive Council two or more members freely elected by the people, as a modification of that assembly. The experiment might certainly be made with some limitation of numbers, or with some modifica tion of the franchise ; and now that the subject had b, en so often discussed, the people of this country had a right to expect that a reforming Ministry would make such a con. cession to the colonists of so rising and prosperous a set. tlemen t. Mr. SLANEY begged the Hon. Member to consider hew he could reconcile his love of a free legislative as sembly in a colony, when he bad recently stood forward as the unflinching opponent of every extension of elective rights or legislative privileges among the people at home. --(Hear.) He (Mr. Slaney) would maintain that the rople of England ought, upon a subject like the present, to place implicit confidence in the Goi - eruinent, as Minis tete bad afforded such substantial proof of their desire to extend and secure popular rights and privileges whet evi t it was praetic _ _ . Mr. BULWER replied. He would consent to with draw so much of his motion as related to the jury system in the colony of New South Wales. Upon this point he was satisfied by what had been said by the Noble Lord; but, upon all the other points, what his Lordship had ad vanced had confirmed him in the opinions which he had formed upon the subject before be bad brought it before the House. He should now alter his original intentions, and move that an humble Address be presented to his Ma jesty, praying that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to cause measures to be taken in order to give to the free inhabit tnts of New South Wales a system of legislative representation such as the present condition and circum stances of that colony may seem to require. The House then divided, when there appeared— For the Motion Against it t7 Majority against the Motion -41 On our return to the gallery we found Lord Viscount EBRINGTON presenting a petition, which had been put into his hands this day, from certain Polish refugees i❑ France, praying the House of Commons to interfere on behalf of the Polish kingdom. After a few words from Sir C. WETITERELL, The SPEAKER objected to the reception of the peti tion, inasmuch as he contended the House could only re ceive those which complained of grievances within this kingdom, and could not interfere with the wrongs, real or supposed, of the subjects of another Sovereign. Mr. O'CONNELL suggested that those petitioners, although foreigners, had a right to petition the House to address the Crown to interfere. He believed that on a former occasion a petition of the Vaudois had, as he thought very properly, been received, praying the Crown to interfere. The SPEAKER doubted whether the Honourable and Learned Member could substantiate the precedent be had quoted. Mr. C. FERGUSSON conceived that this petition merely went to claim from Great Britain the fulfilment of treaties by which she had guaranteed the rights of Poland. After some further remarks, as to the reception of the petition, from the SPEAKER, Sir G. WARRENDEa, Mr: A. BARING, and Sir R. VYVYAN, the Noble Lord (Ehrington) withdrew the petition for the present, and then presented petitions to the same effect as the preceding from Sidmouth and Topsham, which were ordered to lie on the table. • ~Y ~. was impossible that any words could convey more definite ideas than were expressed in those terms of the treaty of Vienna, which were now said to be vague and indefinite The words of the treaty were, that the duchy of Warsay. , should be united to Russia by its constitution—(Hear) — and that his Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Russia re served to himself to give to Poland a representative legisla ture and a distinct Administration; Austria and Prussia also undertaking to give free institutions to the Polish pro. vinces which were to remain annexed to those Crowns. The Emperor of Austria did give to the provinces under his dominion something approaching to a _Representative Government; and the King of Prussia also gave the Po. lish provinces subject to him some political privileges. But the Emperor of Russia bad not only not observed the compact with Poland, but he had deprived that people of the free institutions which they had always pos sessed before the formation of the treaty of Vienna, and had subjected them to his absolute p o wer.—(Hear, hear.) The papers for which he (Mr. Fergusson) was about to move, related to the conduct of the Emperor Nicholas towards the kingdom of Poland. It was stipulated in the first article of the treaty of Vienna, that Poland was to be hound to Russia by her Constitution ; from which it was clear that Poland was to be as independent of Russia as Scotland was of England, from the time that the two countries were subject to the same Prince down to the Union.—(Hear. hear.) The article also stipulated, that his Imperial Majesty reserved to himself to give the Po lish provinces a Constitution, and that lie would continue to them the enjoyment of a distinct administration. Now, if those words had any meaning, it was that Poland was given to the Emit e!.or of Russia on no other condition than that she should have an independent Constitution and a distinct Government.—(Hear, hear.) But still it was said the stipulations of the articles were vaguely expressed on this subject. Well, then, if they were vague, who was more likely to construe them in the way most favour able to his own power than the Emperor Alexander? And he showed what was his construction of the treaty, by giving Poland a Constitution.—(Hear, hear.) [The Hon. Member bete made some observations respecting the Ger man newspapers, but in so low a tone that their import could not be collected in the gallery.] He was understood to say, that tbrnughout the whole of the German Press, one journal had offered any excuse for the con- t of the Emperor Nicholas towards the Poles ; and the only argument used by that Journal was, that as the Con stitution had been given to Poland by the magnanimity 11111 c of the Emperor Alexander, his successor had a right to revoke the gift. But he (Mr. Fergussan) thought that the most violent advocate for the revocation of Constitu tions by Monarchs who had granted and sworn to them, was that the Sovereign was not bound to a compact into which he had been forced to enter by the rebellion of his subjects, but that he was hound to observe a Constitution when he had given it voluntarily.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that this country could only act as a mediator be tween Poland and Russia ; but, on the contrary, he (Mr. Ferguson) insisted that every state which was a party to the contract, had not only a right to enforce it, but was bound in honour to do so.—(Hear.) At the opening of the Polish Diet, in 1818, the Emperor Nicholas said that the rights and privileges of the Members were sanc tioned by the charter, which secured to Poland an honour ! able rank amongst the nations of Europe.—(Hear, hear.) The oath which was taken by the Polish authorities was that they would be faithful to the King—(Hear)—and to the charter ; (Hear, hear)—and the present Emperor Nicholas, upon his accession to the Throne, swore, be fire God, that he would faithfully observe the charter, and that he would do all in his power to maintain the Consti tution of Poland.—(Hear, bear.) It was only upon the faith of that oath the people of Poland swore allegiance to to him, together with the charter.—(Hear, hear.) But there was not a single article of the Charter which had not been operly, grossly, and shamelessly violated. One article was, that the diet should be summoned at least once in two years. But five years had been suffered to elapse without any meeting of the Diet.—(Hear.) Another article was, that the Polish people could be taxed only by their representatives. But, for 15 years, taxes were im posed and levied, without a single vote of the Diet, and without a budget having been proposed to that Assembly. —(Hear, hear.) Another article of the Charter promised personal liberty. But personal liberty had never been re spected for a moment. Membe. a of the Diet who ex pressed their opinions honestly were arrested and sent to prison ; from which no man could hope to be liberated by the issue of a fair trial. Indeed no man could be certain that he would have any trial. The Charter said that no man should be detained in prison more than three days without being informed of the accusation upon which he had been arrested, and enabled to offer before a legal tribunal any proofs which he could produce of innocence, so that if no crime could be by that time established against him, he should be set at large. But an insurrection at St. Petersburgh was made an excuse for the arrest of many ' Polish citizens, of whom several having been im prisorted—not fur three days, as the Charter required— but for 18 months—(Hear, hear)—in violation of the Charter, without an opportunity of proving their ' innocence—were at length liberated without a trial. Many of those, as the House would easily believe, were confined for imaginary crimes ; and many, he regretted to say, their spirits broken and their fortitude great though it might he, no longer sufficient to sustain them under such an accumulated weight of suffering, had fallen by their own hands. Many, too, of those who had thus for a period of eighteen months been deprived of the right to be tried, were, when brought before the High Court of Justice, declared to be not only not guilty of any offence, ibut the great mass of them were declared to be free fr on the slightest suspicion. Were they, therefore liberated? Yes, for the moment, that they might be taken into cus tody the next, and hurried off to some Russian fortress; and as to some of the number, they were never seen or beard of after. With respect to those who had been brought before the national tribunal, there could be no sort of quest:on that that tribunal had most faithfully dis charged its duty, but for such fulfilment of its functions its reward was a reprimand from Constantine.—(Hear, hear.) So much then for the personal liberty. Were they in any respect in a better condition as regarded their religious freedom? The religion of Poland, as the House was aware, was the Roman Catholic—that was the reli gion of the State ; and what was the treatment which the Poles experienced ? Their places of worship were seized upon, and bandid over to the purposes of the Greek Church. If that was the treatment which Poland received in religious matters, that in military affairs wes in full accordance with it. The Emperor Alexander, whose ambition was unbounded, ()Lee conc , ived the in tention of enriching himself with the affections of his Polish subjects, and he felt that he could not accomplish that or tiny similar object if he did not leave to them the possession of national uniform and their White Eagle, which their unequalled valour had so often borne to vic tory—which hail so often struck terror to the hearts of enemies of Poland. The motives of the Emperor Alex ander we,re clearly those of unbounded ambition, and his arts were too well known to admit of doubt or misrepresen tation; he agreed that there should be a national army of Poles, and that there should be no army in Poland ex cepting that national army. That national army, how ever, soon ceased, and Russian troops were quartered at the expense of the Polish people—there was not a single article of any treaty entered into with Poland which Ml' not violated.—(Cheers.) There was no one who would not say that the Ukases of the Russian Government had not grossly violated them ; were not the Poles, then, in the face of God and man, justified in vindicating their own rights—(Cheers)—in vindicating their national existence —that existence of which the Powers of Europe had solemnly sworn to maintain ? If Poland were not justified in adopting such a course—if Poland were not fully justified, he believed that there was no free country upon earth thet could justify its existing Go vernment. If Poland were not justified in resisting the arms of her oppressor, then was the Government of this country for the last 150 years, a gross usurpation; and the breach of faith on the part of James 11. no sufficient ground for transferring the Crown of these realms first to William, and then to the House of Brunswick. It was such a breach of faith as that which justified the revolu tion of 1688, that also gave a justification to the Poles. On these grounds, then, he repudiated the idea that the people of Poland could be charged with rebellion—nay, he had even the authority of the Emperor Nicholas himself for saying that it could not so be considered. The House would recollect the footing upon which he had placed the revolt. Nicholas stated it to be the work of a faction, which, having gained over a certain portion of his Polish subjects, had led them to resist his authority. It would appear throughout as if the Russian Autocrat treated the people of Poland as though they had never enjoyed anything like a free constitution—as if it had been given them, for the first time, by the Emperor Alexander—as if freedom could alone proceed from the Cz a of Muscovy. But, as the House well knew, Poland had from a remote period enjoyed the benefits of a free constitution, and the re establishment of its national existence was distinctly re cognised by die treaty of Vienna ; and yet the Emperor of Russia spoke of Poland as if he had conquered that country by force of arms ; when the fact was, that his army merely entered Warsaw at one gate, at the same time that Prince Poniatowski and the Polish army evacuated it by the other. But it was no victory—no conquest ; it was merely an overrunning of the country. It was a mere military oc • cupation without opposition ; and, even had it been other wise, he did not know that it would give him those rights which he aaaninerl over the people of Poland. With sti 1 greater reason, then, could it be said that he had no righ' to dispose of the constitution of Poland as he might think proper, when, in point of fact, there had been no conquest whatever; and the Russian Government, when entering upon the occupation of Poland, was bound by the strongest ties to ob•erve the constitution which she found established. By the treaty of Tilsit the Duchy of Warsaw was declared independent; and if Russia'acquiesced in the terms of that treaty, it mattered not whether the constitution to be preserved was that of Warsaw or the ancient constitution of Poland ; for at the time Poniatowsky had quitted War saw, the one constitution had varied very little from th other. Hence, then, nothing could be more obvious than that the concession of the constitution alone could justify Russia in treating the Polish revolt as a rebellion—that alone could give her the rights she claimed over Poland. The Powers of Europe were entitled to see that the system of Europ- was preserved as it was established by the treaty of Vienna. Having thus briefly called the attention of the House to the foregoing topics, he should now as briefly call their attention to a few of the occurrences which had recently taken place in Poland. It was of course known to the House, that of the twenty-four General Officers who had been arrested in Poland, not more than four had returned to their homes, though it was declared that all of them had been included in the amnesty. The soldiers of Poland were also included in the amnesty, and yet it was also equ illy well known that they were marched in columns of ten, and linked together by bars of iron, to the remotest parts of Siberia.—( Hear, hear.) That was the treatment which they received at the hands of the clement Nicholas. The Nobles of Poland encountered no better treatment — they were banished and degraded. The sentence of one Polish Prince was signed by Nicholas on the festival of his patron Saint ; and what was that sentence ?—That he should be banished to Siberia, and that he should proceed thither on foot.—( Hear.) That document was still in existence—that i'ocument, which enjoined that that illus trious Prince should march along with common soldiers to Siberia, and should encounter not only the privations of that dreadful climate, but the misery of a journey thither on foot. The Princess, his mother, immediately on learning the sentence, proceeded to St. Petersburgh, in the hope of procuring some mitigation of it ; and what was the condition upon which the Emperor agreed that there should be some mitigation ? The condition was, that the Prince should acknowledge that he had been led into the rebellion by the loss of reason consequent on the death of his wife. To this he replied, that he was a Pole; and that no consideration should induce him to acknowledge that he had ever devoted himself to the cause of Poland from any other motive than a deliberate conviction -of the justice of her cause ; and that that conviction was adopted under cir cumstances which would for ever render it impossible that he should admit the influence of any other sentiment than a strong sense of the injuries inflicted upon his beloved country. If any answer could have softened the decision of the tyrant, it was this ; but the unfortunate Prince was subjected to all the rigours of his sentence. He would mention another case : the Russian soldiers were directed to take possession of all infants who might be left without parents. A grandfather was about to be robbed of a child a female, not above eight years of age—he was seventy ; he had been a fellow soldier of Kosciusko. He resisted with more than Roman heroism, and even Russian bru tality was arrested in its career. But the Emperor of Russia, not content with crushing Poland, appeared to possess sufficient power to subdue every sovereign in Europe. A person named Tours was found in the domi nions of the King of Hanover—and this was a transaction respecting which he should certainly demand an explana tion, if there were any Minister in that House responsible for the conduct of the affairs of Hanover—but as there was not, he was necessarily confined in stating the simple fat, that Russia was desirous of acquiring possession of al: persons and papers likely to establish, or contribute to establishing, the authority of Russia in Poland. The Russian Minister in Dresden demanded the surrender of Tours.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it was stated that he had b •en found in the Hanoverian dominions ;—that he hid been arrested there, and that his papers were taken from him. He should like to know if the fact were so ? By the Treaty of Vienna, the King of Hanover was not bound to deliver up any person who was not charged with some crime ; and indisputably not the slightest charge was preferred against hint. He hoped that in that, as well as in other points, lie had been mistaken—he hoped that even Russia had not been guilty of such unheard of tyranny, though anything might bebelieved of a Government which carried off infants for no other reason than because they had neither fathers nor mothers. It was in vain that fathers, brothers, uncles stood forward to say that they would take charge of such infants—there was no exception in favour of such relatives in the Imperial Ukase. The Emperor swept off these children, and said that be would take care of them. Yes, he would take especial care that they were made slaves and enemies of Poland—instruments of that old Russian party, or rather that old Muscovite party, whose enmity to Poland could be appeased by nothing but blood. It was but too plain, that the object of that party was to denationalize Poland, if not to exterminate her people, at least to unite her with his own present dominions, and in time to realize the project of universal Monarchy in Europe. It might be said that, like that of the Roman Em pire, the Russian power might crumble into dust ; but let it i.e remembered how many independent states and nations fell victims to th it gigantic power before its own immediate downfall. He did hope that this country would not sub mit to see Poland thus den itionalized. He did hope that England would enter her solemn protest against a proceed ing so contrary to good faith, so derog atory to her honour and dignity, and so opposed to the most obvious principles of the laws of nations.—(Cheers. ) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving, " Tnat there he laid before the House copies of the manifesto of the Emperor of Russia on the 26th of February last, and of the Organic Statute to which it refers ; and also for a copy or extract from the despatch of the British Ambas sador at Petersburgh, communicating the same to his Majesty's Government. Lord SANDON seconded the motion. He vtas not prepared to say that England should go to war for such a purpose as that of compelling Russia to do justice to Poland, but there was nothing to prevent England Crum setting her self free from the reproach of raising her voice in support of the rights of that most deeply injured nation. Under the Treaty of Vienna, she possessed the most perfect right to do so, and he hoped that that right would be speedily exercised. It was in the highest degree chimerical to expect that the Russians and the Poles would ever amalgamate or form one people, no matter how often the attempt might be made, it could not but end in failure and disappointment. There was one important consideration to which he wished par ticularly to call the attention of the House—it was, that the conduct of Russia had completely put an end to the arrangement made at the Congress of Vienna; and it was open to the Powers of Europe to make what settlement of ' the pending question the present circumstances might de mand. He hoped that the time was nut distant when the Crown of Poland would he declared independent, and when that country would be placed in such a situation as to enable her to fulfil her duties amongst the great lisnily of the States of Europe. In the consideration of such a question as that, he had the satisfaction to think that there did not exist a second opinion, either in that House or in the nation at large.—(Loud cheers.) It had been contended, on the part of the Emperor of Russia, that the Poles had forfeited their right to a free constitu tion : as well might it be said that the people of Scotland, after the events of 1745, had forfeited all right to personal or political liberty. Lord PALMERSTON said, that if he were about to object to the present motion, he should feel it his duty to enter into the subject somewhat in detail, and to discuss the question at full length ; but that would be unnecessary, as he was prepared to accede to the production of the pa pers. And as his Hon. and Learned Friend had had the goo d taste and judgment to say that neither his arguments , or the motion by whith he intended to conclude, did he rn en ea ce n o t r o e d x r p iv imi el , : t i i s on M , a , j f est t y h ' e s cGonovdeurentnnewnitiicihntotheaynyhadvee fapvuairsl pursued himselfo referencef whatto th h e ad affairs l fallen n f P fr o o la m n d , his h e should e Hu nxocuursaeli and him f L from mea entering rned Frie nd,into a and n ydi discussion uss o t n h e House o r explana tion of the conduct pursued by Government in those trans actions. He was sure there was person who must not • see that, with reference to all the interests concerned, and on every account, he should best discharge his duty by not entering into any statement of that nature. At the same time he was bound iu justice to add, that the Government of this country was not blind to the rights conferred upon us by the treaty of Vienna. No man could entertain a doubt that Great Britain possessed a full right to express a decided opinion upon the performance or the non-per formance of the stipulations contained in that treaty. Nevertheless, it could not be denied that England lay under no peculiar obligation, individually and indepen dently of the other contracting parties, to adopt measures of direct interference by force. For the reasons, then, which he had already stated, he took for granted that the • H ous e would not expect him to explain at length the com munications which had taken place between his Majesty's Government and their agents at Foreign Courts upon the subject of Poland. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman in the course of his speech had adverted to the severities prac tiled by the Russian Government towards the Poles, and expressed an apprehension that other and still more objec tionable severities were likely to take place. He (Lord Pal merston) should not at that moment enter into details, butt he thought every man who Beard him must feel that it eva the interest of Russia to take a very different course, and t- , attach the people of Poland to her Government, not mot by the justice of her policy than by the concession of those institutions which were known to be the most agreeable to their feelings. No man who heard him could doubt that it was the policy of the Russian Government to win the attachment of the people for the Sovereign appointed to rule over them ; and he must say, that any idea of exter minating a whole people, in the manner represented by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, seemed to him so iin - probable, that he really could not understand on whit grouirls the supposition rested ; and at all events he was confident it would be found not to he correct. Advertina to the case of Tours, which had been alluded to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he felt it necessary to state that he understood Tours to he a subject either of Prussia or of Saxony, and therefore the Hanoverian Government, in arresting him, were merely performine a duty which it was not able to refuse. He did not conceive it to be his duty to make any further observations ; and the m ire so, as he had already said he did not intend to refuse the pa pers which were moved for. If, however, any observe • tions were made in the course of the evening which re quired explanation on his pert, he trusted the House would extend to him its indulgence, and permit him to say a few words in reple.—( Hear, hear.) Lord MORPETH—Rising, as I do, to speak in behalf of Poland, I am, perhaps, in some measure, differently situated from others who take the same view, because 1 am not without some personal predilection for Russia. It was my fortune to receive in that country much kindness and hospitality. I saw there mach to amuse and interest me. I saw a good deal to admire and to like. I con tracted a considerable kindness of feeling towards Russia. I have taken opportunities of expressing it, when the oc casion allowed, in this House. I rejoiced most cordially over the joint glories of Navarino. I grudged not the trophies of Varna anti Shumna. I had no wish to foresee in the chastisers of barbarous and infidel Turkey the oppressors of civilized and Christian Poland. Again, even that I conceived a very high opinion of the personal character of the Emperor. I know that his war had not grown pale before the most imminent end critical peril that ever fronted a Sovereign upon his entrance to domi nion ; and I remarked an attention and devotion to the business of his station highly creditable to a person of any rank, much more so to the Ruler of the half of the Con tinent. I say thus much to prove that I am not natu rally indisposed, but quite the reverse, to Russia and her rulers; of course in their maxims of policy and habits of government there must he many things not congenial to British feeling; but I hear of no country which has a wider field before her than Russia, and if she had her true inte rests, and studied her real glory, for developing all her gigantic scale of resources, for extending gradually the soft and high influences of civilization, industry, and a.. ver her boundless and untried regions, for raising hersea and benefiting the world. But I must arraign her policy, when she chooses that the sceptre she might wield with so much advantage to mankind, should be a weapon of aggression and a rod of iron. I must question her right to hold Poland on any other tenure but an independent na tion, which she is bound to see righteously, lawfully, and constitutionally governed. I will not enter into the deli cate and intricate question of the precise meaning of the different treaties. Such as they are, I trust that my Noble Friend, acting, I hope, in conjunction with the other nations of Europe, will exact their faithful fulfil- I ment, dealing impartially between the powerful and the weak. Neither do I feel willing to dwell upon those pain ful details of vengeance and suffering by which our minds are now so often harassed, without those better opportu • nitics which others must possess of verifying their exact authenticity. I cannot, however, but remark, if all, or much of what we hear is true—and much, alas, we know most be—if the design is on foot, and in active progress to annihilate the Polish nation, name, con stitution, language—all but her immortal memory—the land of Casiners anti Sigismunds, of Sobieski and Teo shivshes, that had first resisted the torrent of Maimmedan invasion, and secured the liberties and religion of Europe; if her Princes, and Nobles, and Senators, are consigned to the dungeons, the 'nines, the graves of Siberia; if her Noble Ladies travel to the foot of the Throne—and I am told their very presence has ever sat awhile into the fes tivities of the capital—and sue not for pardon, but for pity upon those whose fault it was to act with conscien tious and heroic, though perhaps despairing devotion, in the cause of their country, while they thought they hail one—and that suit is denied them ; if, while in confisca tion and exile, they teach the course of her Czartoriskys and her Sangouches, her rising and spirited youth are daily draughted to swell the ranks of the Russian armies, and prepare new Te Deums for future triumphs over the freedom of the world ; if, further—oh, crowning horror ! —let it he well attested before we credit it—children are carried off to lose the memory of their noble country on the frozen hanks of the Ohe, or among the mountainous steeps of Caucasus : if these things be, we may, without much compromising ourselves, say that a case is made out for the energetic intervention of England and of Europe ; we may, without much presuming, add, that whatever becomes of that intervention, great room is left for the righteous retribution of Heaven. Sir GEORGE WARRENDER was anxious to look at the question divested of all personal feelings, but he still could not altogether get rid of the impression produced on him by the statements of the Member for Kircuobright (Mr. Ferausson). He looked, however, with confidence to the exertions of the Government, and he derived much consolation from the knowledge that they possessed a Se cretary of State disposed to act on true British principles. In the year 1793, Earl Grey, on this very question of Po land, moved a Resolution to the effect that time general principles on which the security of nations rested were wounded through the side of Poland. If the principles on which the security of nations rests were wounded through the side of Poland, then how much more were they wounded now, when, as they had heard to-night, a so lemn Treaty with the Powers of Europe had been grossly violated ? He derived consolation, however, from the fact that the person nearly connected with the Noble Premier from whom this Resolution emanated was about to pro ceed to St. Petersburgh ; and he felt confident, from the reputation of the Noble Ambassador, that the honour and interests of England, us well as the wishes of her people, would be consulted in the remonstrances which his in structions would call on him to put forth. He was confi dent that the people of England would view with the greatest dissatisfaction any approach towards the policy of the school of Castlereagh ; for al-hough other subjects had diverted their attention for some time past, he could assure the Government that there existed throughout the country the greatest regret for the fate of Poland, and the war meat sympathy for her brave and suffering people.—(Hear.) Lord EBRINGTON could not avoid saying a few words on behalf of a people whose patience, under the most grinding oppression, could only ne equalled by the almost superhuman bravery with which they had contended against the power of their oppressors. Independent, however, of all considerations of humanity, there were considerations of policy which could not well be over looked. Was it to be suppo-ed that if the present aggres sion of Russia was suffered to pass unnoticed—if the per fidy of which she had been guilty to the country she was called to rule over on conditions, every one of which she had violated, was suffered to go without punishment— there would be any permanent security for the peace of any of the neighbouring States? Could Austria or Prussia look with any confidence to a permanent peace, or to the secu rity of their possessions, unless a check was given to the exorbitant pretensions of Russia? Allusion had been made to the treaty of Vienna ; he was one of those who thought the treaty of Vienna the consummation of the combined efforts of the greater Powers against the weaker, and that the stipulations of the treaty were intended for the aggrandizement of the greater Powers, at their expense. On this account he had always looked at it with regret ; but he confessed he felt gratified to learn that a British Minister at that time had la boured to restore Poland to her rank among na tions. He was happy to have such an opportunity to do justice to the character of the Minister who at that time represented England at the Congress, and to learn that be, as well as the representative of the descendants of Maria Theresa, were anxious to preserve the integrity of that kingdom which had formed the barrier of Christen dom against the utmost power of its assailants. If the present aggression was acquiesced in, he saw, however, no hopes of permanent peace; and it was, therefore, with no slight satisfaction that he viewed the appointment of a dear friend of his, and a near relation of the Premier, to the embassy of St. Petersburgh. This appointment gave him confidence as to the result, and would infuse fresh courage in the hearts of the friends of freedom. He was as anxious as any man to avoid plunging his country into the horrors of war. He was anxious to avoid anything avoiding eil contests to d ra w he t r . h e which could have the effect of p reci p itatin g the countr y into war, but he was satis fied that firmness at the p res ent moment afte, . was t Should ie they, besthowever, e sword in order to pr eserve the ri g hts of nature, he hoped it would be in conju nction with their free nei g hb our and oe so t rr i o n such dtd. a place, rrbey and hai l m ally of France, and in su pp ort of free p rinci p les and free c o nstitutions.—(Hear , hear.) Mr. O'CONNEL L was almost afraid to trust himself to speakong those a s be lay felt whom ehod of be eii,peed been told of time violation of the rights of P o l an d , b y t h e violation of the te rms of the treat y of Vienna. The rights among; a thbies was subjc surrounded. of Poland depended not on the treaty of Vienna ; tuul those who pretended at that Conference of the right of powers to dispose of that territory, bad no more right to do so than a band of robbers at any time possessed to parcel out the spoil they obtained in their excursions in search of plunder. Poland was no conquered country. It had been run over by the troops of France, and by the troops of Russia, and of Austria, but it was not conquered ; and as to its rights, they existed before the spoliation of 1772, or the division of 1791, and were not to be taken away or disposed of by any treaty which the Powers of Vienna might have thought proper to enter into. They bad heard that night of the atrocities perpetrated by Russia. Wives were separated from their husbands—all the ties of humanity were severed, and 100,000 childri , :n had been se it into the interior of Russia to forget their language, their kindred, and their country. The Noble Lord (Morpeth) had spoken of the gratification he felt in being known to the Emperor of Russia, and in having visited his Court. For his (Mr. O'Connell's) part, he should be ashamed of such an acquaintance.—(Laughter.) If the Emperor of Rossi had been a smaller and more 'ns'gnificant person, it would have been considered a disgrace to hold any communication; but because he had a ht rde of three or four hundred thousand barbarians at his hack, was that a reason n•hy mankind should not treat him as he deserved, and execrate him on account of his crimes? The Barbarian Conqueror had violated the treaty regarding the Poles in a manner such as no treaty was ever violated before. The miscreant barbarian bad violated all compact—had trampled on all rights ; and was this Attila—this scourge of God—to found a new claim to the kingdom of Poland, bi cause success had, by bar barian fore•, crowned his perfidy and infamy with success? It was a question not of argument but of natural feeling. No country had been so ill treated as Poland.—(Cheers.) Ois no country had such barbarities been exercised. The conduct of Russia was most atrocious, and the amount of her crimes daily increasing. He trusted, however, that the day was not far distant when the nationality of Poland should be once more restored.—(Cheers.) Mr. SCHONSWAR expressed his abhorrence at the atrocities which had been perpetrated upon Poland. He could p , rsonally confirm the statements made in the House that night, from the statements of persons who had lately arrived from that unhappy country. He hoped it was not yet too late for the intervention of this country, and he trusted to the spirit of the people, backed by that House, to awe the people of Poland from utter extinction. Colonel EVANS said that the Noble Lord the Secre tary for Foreign Affairs bad acknowledged the right of England to call on Russia for explanation, and on that he relied. He could not, however, but observe that Hon. Members had shrunk from the possible alternative of war, in case negotiations shoull fail. Now, though he was one of the last Members of that House who wished to plunge this country in war, yet he saw no particular rea sons for shrinking from that alternative if our negotiations should fail. The power of Russia had been much over estimated ; she was at the mercy of France and England, and it required but very little exertion and expense on the part of those two countries to destroy her commerce and her maritime power, and to make themselves mast.rs of her possessions i❑ Asia, and on the shores of the Black Sea.—( Hear. ) Mr. GALLY KNIGHT said he thought the war party in France had much to answer for; they had inducedabrave and gallant people to encounter an overwhelming power on the faith of pledges of support, which they were un able to fulfil.—(Hear.) That struggle, however, was now over; but what was the treatment which Poland received at the bawls of the conqueror ? Instead of lenity it was exterminated—it was blotted out of the map of Europe; and surely when, according to the strict letter of the treaty of Vienna, the chains of Italy had been riveted, the mt. tion ility of Poland ought to be preserved.—(Hear, hear.) This argument was more particularly applica ble at the present time, when a Convention was lying on their table between this country and Russia, by whi h a sum of money was granted to that country in c. Aderation of her infirm adhesion to that treaty...- (Hear.) And as England was the presiding party of that treaty, the admitted arbitress, it was yet more particularly our duty to prevent its infraction.—(Cheers.) He ad mi.ted that Poland was in a state of insurrection; but it was in consequence of repeated violations of the Charter, and of unmerited oppression.—(Cheers.) One thing, however, gave him pleasote ; fur he was convinced that not aI I the power of all the Russias could ever Russian ize Poland.—(Cheers.) Mr. PIGOTT rose to express his entire concurrence with the Gentleman who spoke last. Much well merited reprobation had been east on the Emperor of Russia. They were bound to insist on the performance of the treaty of Vienna.—(Hear,) Air. RUTHVEN felt that the situation of Poland had been so well expressed by the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward the motion, that be should not attempt to add anything to it. He entirely concurred in the views which had been taken by his Honourable Friends. He looked upon the Emperor of Russia with horror, detesta tion and contempt. It was singular that the convention alluded to was at that moment on their table ; but he would ask the House was the hard-earned money of the people of this country to he sent to pay the troops of the tyrant to assist in the subjugation of the liberties:ot Poland? He was sure the people of England would willingly have raised Vat sum for the assistance of the brave Poles, whilst th y would detest its contemplated application. Sir R. INGLIS expressed his surprise at the language which had been held in the House towards the Emperor of Russia. He was surprised that the Right Hon. Secre tary opposite, and the other Members of his Majesty's Government, should have suffered seven Members to pro ceed with such language—(Cries of hear, hear, and suffered)—be meant without notice.—(Cheers.) He con sidered such language to be a most improper use of the freedom of debate in that House. Such language was highly improper in relation to a private individual; but when a Sovereign —one, too, with whom this country was in alliance—was termed a miscreant ; when the Hon. and Learned G• ntleman used such language as that— Mr. C. FERGUSSON—I did not say so. _ . Sir R. INGLIS did not mean that . Hon. Gentleman, but allot! er Hon. and Learned Member, who was then absent (Mr. O'Connell) : he could not withhold his sus.. prise that no comment was made by any Member of his Majesty's Gsvernment. He was not to be understood as giving any opinion for or against the motion. He had an opinion which he should reserve; but he must observe, t at if such language were used in that House, there could be very Lute prospect of maintaining peace.—(Cheers.) Lord PALMERSTON said, that no person could r e gret more than he did the expressions which had been uttered by the Hon. Member for Kerry. He had, however, pre viously spoken ; and he did not conceive himself respory sitile for the language of Hon. Members.—(Hear, hear.) He did not feel himself justified in interrupting the Hon' Member, so long as lie did n o t i ntru d e upon t h e or d er of the House.—(Hear.) Mr. BEAUMONT was surprised that the Noble Lord should disapprove of the expressions which had been made use of towards the Emperor of Russia. For his part, h e was delighted with them. He entirely concurred with the Honourable Member, that the Emperor of Russia wit a miscreant.—(Cheers.) As a country gentleman, repre seotative of a very large county, he would repeat dial, words.—(Cheers.) He relied on the spirit which wou ld be evinced by the people of England under a Reforme d Parliament. They would speak in a voice that could no be mistaken.—( Hear.) Mr. HUME agreed with the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last. An Honourable Member complaille" that the Emperor of Russia was called a miscreant; why s , he would call him a monster in human form.—(Cheers•) If he knew language by which he could more strongly express his detestation, he would use it.--(Cheers.) 14 : wondered that the Hon. Member for th e U n i vers i t y s i s ' ta i ai rs idte without it h th y hoos h ue e t wsuoffrde notice.rs .e such languag e Oxford should venture in that House to address a Minister d o t o f thessbi rr eWhy it was not in h ie power to prevent it.—(Loud cheers.) Mr. HUME—I ask what were the words to which the Hon. Member alluded ?---(Cheers.) Mr. HUME—I repeat those words.—(Loud cheers.) Crown,uiused seildNN They were too weak to express his feelings of detestati on at the barbarities which had been exercised towards 1 7 °: land. He would ask, were the accounts of the c ondor; of Russia untruly or unfairly stated ? If anything stated (Cheers.) by his Hon. Friend, the Member for Kerry, was untrue' let any Member stand up its his place and deny (Cheers.) If true, he asked any man, possessing t he feelings of a Briton, whether such lansuage was not wealtt when compared to such atrocity ?..--(Cheers.) He had that day attended a large meeting of his fellow-countrym en where the strongest sympathy was expressed towards LW . happy Poland, and lie was convinced the whole na tion participated in that sympathy. Mr. WYSE said this was not the first time he he heard great tenderness exercised towards the Emperor Russia, who was, perhaps, the most questionable Sor e reign in Europe. Liberty of speech on such subjects o_g these was highly desirable; and it was an idle thing ' o ° suppose that it was possible, by diplomacy or cunning, t check the just indignation of the people of this count y " He felt much pride in believing that, by such debates.a.. these, they were raising a moral harrier against the :fl ed roads of Russian despotism; and he was,'therefore, g rie ,bs to find that there was one man in that House who o °' G aLLniidss kii there.—(Hear.) POLAND. On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, Lord EBRINGTON was presenting a petition from certain Polish refugees, resident in Paris, complaining of the violation of the charter secured to Poland by the Treaty of Vienna, and praying for the interference of the House. In consequence of the low tone in which the Noble Lord spoke, and of the noise made by strangers re suming their seats, the details of the petition and of the Noble Lord's observations were for the most part inaudible. Sir C. WETHERELL objected to the presentation of the petition, on the ground that the House could not re ceive petitions from foreigners complaining of other fo reigners, over whom neither the Crown nor the Parlia ment of this country had any authority. Lord EBRINGTON was understood to say, that this country was a party to the Treaty, by the violation of which the petitioners had been aggrieved, and that the House could interfere by an address to the Crown. The SPEAKER said that, respecting the point of or , der, on which the reception of the petition had been oh. jetted to, there could be no doubt that the House could receive petitions from foreigners who were in any way un der the dominion of the Crown, and who complained of grievances which they had suffered, either at the hands of subjects of the Crown, or of foreigners residing in this country, or in any way subject to the dominion of the Crown, or to the authority of Parliament. But as re svected the violation of treaties, the House would not ori ginate any proceeding founded upon the recommendation of foreigners complaining of grievances suffered from a foreign Power. After some observations from Mr. O'CONNELL, Sir G. WARRENnErt, and Sir R. VYTYAN, respecting the point of order. which were net distinctly collected in the gallery, Lord EBRINGTON said, that perceiving that the re ception of the petition would be contrary to the rules of the House, he should withdraw it. But he had three other petitions to present upon the same subject, which were not liable to the same objection—these were from Sidmouth, and two other towns in Devonshire (Crediton and Topsham), praying the attention of the House to the infraction of the treaty of Vienna, by the Emperor of Russia, and for its interference in behalf of the oppressed Poles. On the reading of the last petition, Sir R. VYVYAN asked whether he rightly understood that the Poles, whose petition the Noble Lord had with drawn, were residents in Paris, and that it was chiefly on that ground that their petition could not be received? Tt.e SPEAKER said, that he had already explained that the circumstance of the petitioners not residing in this country would not render the reception of their peti tion irregular, provided that they compl.rined of grie vances suffered from a party under the dominion of the Clown, or the authority of that House.—(Hear.) Lord EBRINGTON lyre said that the p-tit , oners re sided in Paris. Mr. CUTLAR FERGUSSON then rose to bring for ward the motion of which he had given notice, in refe rence to the subject of the petitions which bad just been presented. On a former occasion, when he brought for ward the same subject, he had abstained from expressing himself as fully as he felt, and from calling upon the House to express itself in a strong manner, lest he should em barrass the Government in the management of delicate and difficult negotiations. (Hear, hear.) But he now thought that he bad been carried too far by that considera tion. Yet he trusted and believed that his Majesty's Go• vernment bad not been wanting in any exertion which they could have made for the protection of the Polish na tion ; and he also trusted and believed that those exertions were not even now at an end.—(Hear, hear.) If be could think his Majesty's Ministers had given up the case of Po• land, he could not be induced to confine his motion within the narrow limits of which he had given notice.—(Hear.) He would at present ask only for copies of the manifesto of the Emperor of Russia, of the 26th of February last, and of the organic statute to which that document referred, together with a copy of the despatch of the British Ambas sador at Petersburgh, communicating the manifesto to his Majesty's Government. But if he had any doubts as to the intentions of Government—if lie thought that Poland had sunk to rise no more, and that she was to receive no assistance from this country—treaties, to which this coun try was a party, being violated without remonstrance or opposition, and the national honour and good faith be ing abandoned without an effort to maintain them— be should have felt it his duty to bring the question before the House in a different form from that of his present motion.— (Hear, hear, hear.) But he thought it was necessary that the people should see that the Gc vernment had kept the national faith and honour from violation, and that they had done every thing which they could do to assist the Poles, and to maintain treaties, of which this country was bound in honour to insist upon the enforcement.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that it would be shown that his Majesty's Government had not abandoned the compact into which this country had en tered with Poland by the treaty of Vienna.—(Hear.)-- It would be seen from the notes of Lord Castlereagh, that the national faith and honour of this country was involved in the maintenance of that treaty.—(Hear, hear.) And here he would say that it gave him pleasure, in this case, to speak with praise of the conduct of that statesman.— (Hear, hear) From his (Lord Castlereagh's) notes it was manifest that the state of Poland, present and future, was looked upon as the subject of most importance, to all Europe, then under the consideration of the Great Powers. --(Hear, bear.) He would not detain the House by going over the negotiations in detail, at any unnecessary length ; but he begged to call tha attention of Honourable Mem bers to the words of the first article of the treaty of Vi enna. Lord Castlereagh insisted, as a preliminary, that it should he settled whether or not Poland was to be re stored to her ancient limits, and to her rank as an inde pendent nation.—(Hear.) He said that that was the question which the Prince Regent had most at heart, and that nothing was of so much importance to Europe as that Poland should he restored to its former indepen dence, under a distinct Government.--( Hear, hear.) The representations of Lord Castlereagh had so much influence with the other Powers, that although the Em peror of Russia desired that the duchy of Warsaw should he annexed to the Russian empire, it was determined that Poland should have a free representative legislature, and a distinct Government, subject to the sovereignty of the Emperor of Russia. No man could doubt, that ii the Em • peror had not then pledged himself to give to Poland a separate Government, the ancient provinces of that coun t!), would have been divid e d b e t ween t h e Th ree Powers, Russia, Prussia, and Aurria. For it was expressly de clared by Lord Castlereagh, and assented to by the Minis • ters of the other States, that it was of the utmost impor tance to the peace of Europe, to prevent the whole of Po land from being at the absolute disposal of a military Prince, whoa- ambition would derive from the resources and geographical situation of that country an efficiency dangerous to the independence of the other States, It