The Sun. — London, England, 1832-02-14 00:00:00

1:"` fyi fr - 1 4 70T . )4' that head,' which was also applicable to the Per il vice of the present year. The other head was the 1 ., Victualling Estimate, and it had been calculated by the last Government that it would be covered by the sum of 55,0001. To his great regret and surprise, he had found not only that 55,0001 were necessary, but that an addi tion of not less than 60,0001. would be required. The two sums together would cover the debt which had been contracted by the former Government. He was not aware that it was necessary to trouble the Committee further, and would therefore move the first resolution--" That 32,000 men be employed for the sea service front the Ist Jan. to the 31st March, 1832, including 10,000 marines." Sir G CLERK observed, the Hon. Baronet seemed to have confounded ways and means with supply, in what be bad said respecting the precedent set by Lord Bexley. It appeared that the Hon. Baronet had formed his estimates so as to a single penny to exhaust the sum in hand, as if en exact distribution lard been made without inquiry into the wants of any particular department. He wished for some explanation of the sum taken for the payment of services performed in a distant part of the world, and of which no distinct estima'e could be made. Sir J. GRAHAM observed, that 114,0001. bad been taken to cover charges in theVictualling department up t the 31st March. The calculation could not be accurate, but it was as near as it could be made. There was a si milar estimate for the Navy Board, and by the balance sheet it appeared to be 1,207,5611., but that was not the balance declared by the Navy Board at the Treasury. Sir G. CLERK complained that the account was not clear. Sir J. GRAHAM added, that he bad endeavoured to introduce an important alteration into the department by the substitution of prompt payment for bills at sixty days' date. The use of bills made it always difficult to strike a balance on any particular day. From the Ist of January last all payments had been made in ready money.—(Cheerer.} Mr. CROKER referred to the contracts usually entered rat° in October of every year, hut we could not catch in what way he made them bear upon the question. He contended that it was of great importance that the sums voted for each year should be kept distinct, for unless that were done, the sum expended in any one year could never he ascertained. He highly approved of the change made from payments by bills at sixty days' date to prompt pay ments; but he complained that the statement of wages due to ships on foreign stations was not clear : it varied usually between 300,000/. and 600,0001. Mr. HUME admitted that the present was a mneh-im proved way of doing business. He wished to know whe ther the thirty-two thousand men were to be kept up for three whole months ? He had understood that, in consequence of the discontinuance of the Coast Blockade, two thousand men less would be necessary. An addi tional expence had been incurred on this account in the Customs department, and somewhere a saving ought to be made. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the transfer of the duty of the Coast Blockade took place last year, and that the 32,000 men had been subsequently voted by Parliament. He was informed that the Customs could perform the duty at about half the expence. A large number of men were now on their way home from foreign stations to be paid off, and for their wages a larger sum than usual was re quired. Sir G. CLERK hoped that the account for which he had moved, regarding the expenses of the Coast Blockade, wou ld soon be laid upon the table. Mr. S. RICE was understood to say, that it would pro. bably be presented in the course of this week. Mr. BERRIES remarked, that since the abolition of the Coast Biockade, a greater quantity of foreign manu factured goods had been smuggled into the country. Mr. S. RICE contended that the smuggling, such as it was in amount, was not of manufactured goods, nor was any increase of smuggling fairly attributable to the change of system. Mr. G. ROBINSON considered the existence of smug gling to a great extent, and of foreign manufactured good', clearly established by the quantity sold compared with the quantity on which duty was paid. Nothing could check the contraband trade but total prohibition. The resolution was agreed to ; as well as the two fol lowing, proposed by Sir J. GRAHAM. 270,400/. for the wages of 32,000 seamen and marines, to the 31st March. 18,000/. for the wages of officers, ship-keepers, &c., be longing to vessels in ordinary. The next resolution was for 9,817/. Is. 91., for the salaries and contingent expences of the Admiralty-office ; upon which, Mr. HUME took occasion to remark that he felt war ranted, under the circumstances, in postponing any general observations upon the Navy Estimates, although he must repeat, that the general scale of the establishment was too large —The resolution was agreed to. Sir J. GRAHAM also moved that 7,9391. 3s. Id., be granted for salaries, &c., of the Navy Pay-office. In answer to a question from Mr. CROICER, Sir J. GRAHAM said, that the growing burden of superannuation bad early arrested his attention, and that he was endeavouring to reduce the amount. Sir G. CLERK observed, that an addition had been made to the expence of the Navy Pay-office by the appoint ment of a clerk, with a salary of from 600/. to 800/. per #_~: annum. Mr. R. GORDON took that opportunity to ask his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty. whether any measures had been adopted towards the ful. filtnent of the recommendation that the duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, the Treasurer of the Ordnance, and the Paymaster of the Forces, should be performed by the same person ? Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that in compliance with the recommendation of the Committee, of which his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Queen's county (Sir H. Parnell) was Chairman, the Government had under their eunsideration the means of removing from the Treasurer ship of the Ordnance all responsibility with respect to the other duties, so as to leave the Treasurer merely the hanker of the department, and pave the way for the union of the three offices, the Treasurer of the Navy, of the Ordnance, and the Paymaster of the Forces, in the same person. The vote was then agreed to. The following votes were then agreed to : A sum of 12,0321. 13s. 2d. for the expences of the Navy Office. 5,2681. 19a. 3d. for the charge of the scientific branch of the Navy. 20,581/. to defray the contingent expences and the salaries of the officers of his Majesty's dock-yards at home. 4,6821. la. for the expences of the yards abroad. 121,100/. 13s. 4d. to pay the wages to artificers and labourers employed in his 'Majesty's yards at home and abroad, and to crews of navy transports. 15 4,2001. for the expence of timber and other materials used for ships and in the docks, &c. On the vote of 17,5001. for repairs and improvements in his Majesty's yards at home and abroad, Mr. LEADER complained that the Government yards an d Offices in Ireland, and particularly in Cork, were allowed to go to decay. Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in reply, observed, that al though some stores might have been withdrawn from the yards in Ireland, there never had been the slightest inten tion to do away with the establishments ; and he believed there was at the present moment a larger naval force on the coast of Ireland than we had stationed there for many years, certainly for the last five years. The vote was then agreed to. A vote of 12,0321. 10s. for pilotage, and other con tingencies, and of 5,6851. 14s. 9d, for the transport esta blishment and freight of naval stores was then agreed to. On the vote of 1,630/. for the expence of hired packets, Mr. HUME protested against the system of employing ships of war to carry mails, instead of hiring vessels fur that purpose, or leaving the whole of the arratagements under the management of the Post-office. Until the sp., tern was altered, he should never cease to protest against the vote. Sir JAMES GRAHAM admitted that before he came into office, he was of the same opinion as his Hon. Friend on this subject. Sir Pulteney Malcolm had, however, been expressly directed to make a report to the Govern ment on the state of the packet-service in the Mediterra nean, and he (Sir James Graham) now begged his Hon. Friend to allow the present vote to pass, and to suspend his judgment until the report was laid on the table. Mr. ROBERT GORDON directed the attention of the Secretary for the Treasury to the twenty-second section of the Finance Report, in which he would find it stated that a loss of 300,0001. had been suffered by the country, in consequence of the Government maintaining a packet esta blishment of its own, instead of hiring packets when they were required. Mr. S. RICE said, that it was the anxious desire of the Government to practise economy in the packet service ; but many of these who had at one time offered to carry the mails free of expence, bad afterwards withdrawn that offer. The improvement of the packet-service was, how ever, an object of the attention of the Government. Si r ROBERT BATE SON said, that there could not be a more false economy than that which would go to diminish the estimate for steam-packets, and thereforre render less effective so important a branch of the public service. Lord ALTHORP said a few words which were 0 01 audible in the gallery. Mr. SHAW obstrved, that since the introduction 0, steam-vessels, there never bad been so much delay in the passage of the packets as during the present season. Mr. STANLEY thought the prevalence of bad weather sufficient to account for the circionstance ; and he was enabled to state, that during the whole season, the Holy head packets kept nearer to their ordinary time than those belonging to Liverpool. Mr. GOULBURN remarked that the shortness of the distance explained the apparent superiority of the Holy head packets ; besides which, he understood much of the inferiority of the Holyhead packets was attributable to their not being well found. Mr. RICE assured the House there was every disposi tion on the part of the Government to facilitate the quick passage of those vessels; and, at the same time, to prac tise as strict an economy as would he consistent with the efficient service of the country; but he could not, he con fessed, see what this discussion had to do with the navy estimates. The vote was then agreed to. The next was 192,800/. for the half-pay officers of the navy. Mr. HUME expressed his intention of bringing the question of naval promotions formally under the conside ration of the House. The country was now under an expense amounting to little less than half a million, to de fray the charges of moil half-pay, and that, too, in time of peace, and when almost all the workmen were dis charged from the Dock-yards. The number of officers now employed did not much exceed 600, while those un employed were upwards of 5,000. Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, that unless those pro motions went on as heretofore, the spirit of the nary would be destroyed, anti upon the importance of that branch of the public service it would be superfluous fur to insist ; but this he would say, that no reduction could advantageously be made upon the promotions. The rule laid down with respect to them was, that there should be one promotion for every three deaths, and he mentioned this the more readily, as his predecessors bad all the credit of the measure ; it was one which had his most cordial support, and he thought that a departure from it could not fail to be attended with the worst effects upon the character and spirit of the service. He had further to add, that in the present year a saving of 20 0001. was effected through an observance of that rule. Mr. HUME replied, that if the public required it, the naval promotions must, and ought to stop —(Cries of "Oh ! oh.") Yes, he was well aware that that opinion could not be very popular in that House, for most of the Members were connected with officers in the navy, but he called upon all the Members who valued the rights and property of their constituents to stand forward and put an end to the power which enabled the First Lord of the Admiralty to extend almost without limitation the ad vancement of officers in the n ivy. Thus, he thought, that the promotions ought to be stopped for a certain time—say a year, by way of experiment. The fact was, the State had, at its command, ten times the number of men it had any occasion for. After a few words from Mr. R. Gordon, Sir G. Cock burn, Mr. Hunt, and Mr. Croker, the vote was agreed to. The next was 72,605/. for Pensions to Officers of the Navy, their widows, and relatives. 1,300/. for Bounty to Chaplains. 65,000/. for the Out-pensioners to Greenwich Hospital. Mr. HUME called the attention of the House to the tax levied on the commercial shipping for the maintenance of those pensioners. Sir M. W. RIDLEY expressed, as we understood, his intention of bringing forward the Bill which be formerly announced upon the subject. Sir J. GRAHAM, in reference to the question then before the House, said it was intended to dispose of some portion of the Derwentwater Estate.—Vote agreed to. It was followed by one for 37,6291., superannuation allowances to Commissioners, Secretary, Clerks, and other Officers belonging to the Civil Establishment of the Navy. The next were -31,4001. for ships employed in the removal of troops. 3001. for the freight of vessels employed in the convey ance of passengers and stores for the Colonial Department. 22,125/. for the transport of convicts to New South Wales. 150,000/. for victualling '32,000, at the rate of 1/. 9s. per man per month. 7,500/. for the salaries of Officers in the Victualling Department. 15,738/. for the salaries of Officers in the different Yards. 6,044/. for the salaries of Officers connected with the Navy Medical Establishment. 7,5001. for medical stores and hospital provisions. 7,950/. to defray the charges for ships laid up in ordinary. 52,0001. for works, including bakehouses and brew houses, at Sheerness, Portsmouth, and Plymouth. After some conversation on this vote, Sir JAMES GRAHAM sad that the necessity of it had arisen from the system which had hitherto been pur sued in the Admiralty; but to alter which he intended to introduce a measure. According to the present system, the heads of Subordinate Boards held verbal communica tion with the First Lord of the Admiralty, and his assent was sufficient to authorise the undertaking of such works as these ; the consequence of which was, that there were no documents whatever to refer to on the subject. The present works had been undertaken under the direction of the Victualling Board ; and he was further bound to state that it had been done by private contract, the contractor being the brother, and he believed the partner, of Sir John Rennie, the Commissioner. He certainly had felt some difficulty as to proposing this vote to Parliament ; but as the works had proceeded so far, and as a further sum of 60,000/. would complete them, he had come to the conclu sion that it would he a greater saving now to the country to cause them to be completed. Sir G. CLERK complained of the Right Hon. Baronet's having insinuated an accusation against the parties con cerned in the execution of this transaction. Mr. ROBINSON said, that after what he had heard concerning this vote, he should certainly move for the post ponement of it, until further inquiry could he instituted. The CHAIRMAN said that the Hon. Member could not move a postponement. He could not do other than move a negative. Mr. ROBINSON was not prepared to negative the vote. Sir G. CLERK said, that after what had passed, he would request the Right Hon. Baronet to consent to with draw the vote, in order that further investigation might take place. Sir J. GRAHAM said, that in the first place he had to deny that had insinuated any charge against the persons concerned in these buildings. When he had a charge to make, he made it openly.—(Hear, hear.) What he had done was to find fault with the system, which he thought was a very bad one. With respect to the vote before the House, he was quite ready to withdraw it at the request of the Right Hon. Gentleman, in order that a fuller investi gation might be made. Sir R. PEEL was glad that there was to be an inquiry ; for, after what had passed, he certainly could not consent to vote till that investigation should have taken place ; and he was convinced, from the character of the parties con cerned (though he had heard nothing whatever of the transaction before that evening), that a most satisfactory explanation could he given. CIVIL CONTINGENCIES. Mr. SPRING RICE moved that a sum not exceeding 200,000/. be granted to his Majesty, to defray the ex pence under the head of civil contingencies, for the one quarter, from Ist January to Slat Marsh, 1832 ; and for one year, from let April, 1832, to 31st March, 1833. Mr. GOULBURN, referring to the item of 1,000/. "to Mr. Telford, to defray expencea already incurred in his survey for supplying the metropolis with pure water, and to em.ble him to proceed with the same," wished for some explanation on the subject, observing that the ex pence of the survey ought; to he borne by the Water Com panLieosr,dan,.trLi o by ß t p he st p a u tei b , lic t . he circurn.tan4,eB under which the Committee to take into consideration the best neaps of supplying the metropolis with water had been ap pointed. In the Arst instance, he had taken the same view of the subject as the Right Hon. Gentleman, and had conceived that the Water Companies ought to pay the expence ; and the Chairman of the Committee, the Hon. Poaronet, the Member for Westminster, did certainly answer for the ezpence not coming upon the public. it turned out, however, that there was no chance of per suading the Companies to pay the money, and it was then furnished by the Treasury. He could not :, - i.gree with the Right Hon. Gentleman that the public should never be called upon to contribute to such purposes; and in his opinion, the present was an advance which it was proper to make. Sir ROBERT PEEL denied that it was the province of the Government of this country to undertake any public works. They could only succeed when they were under taken by Cornoanies ; and if they did succeed, why were the Companies not to ilea:- all the expences attending them ? This item of I,oooi. was, it appeared, only a pre liminaey expence. He wished to know what was the estimate of the whole expence? To him it appecred that the case would afford a dangerous precedent. Lord ALTHORP explained, and stated that the whole expence was estimated at 5,0001. A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn, but who stated that be was a Member of the Committee to which the inquiry as to the hest mode of supplying pure water to the metropolis had been referred, said, that when it was proposed that Mr. Telford should male a survey with re- ftlence to the means of securing the object in view, the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Westminster, who was the Chairman of the Committee, said that be would pay the expence. What had occasioned the change in that respect he knew not. In his opinion, of the result of that survey there could be no doubt. Mr. Telford would make a very extensive survey, and subsequently a very magnificent pro posal, so ex pensive that no private Committee would be able to adopt it, and the matter would remain just where it was. He was of opinion that if the Bill had been allowed to proceed, the inhabitants of the metropolis would now have had a good and adequate supply of pure water from the river Colne. Sir R. PEEL said, that that was the consequence of Government interference. It prevented the Companies from acting on their own account. It appeared that a Company would have undertaken to bring pure water from the river Colne, if Government had not stepped in with a magnificent plan which could never be realised. He would move to reduce the proposed vote by 10001. He would read the minutes of the Treasury on the subject, which bad been laid on the table of the House on the Itith of March, 1831, and then appeal to the Committee if his amendment was without foundation. The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to read the Minute of the Treasury, dated March 15, 1831, in which it was stated that the Lords of the Treasury having been informed by Si r Francis Burdett that Mr. Telford was ready to undertake a survey for the purpose of ascertaining the best means of supplying the metropolis with water, and that Sir Francis Burdett be responsible f•r the expence, desired that Mr. Telford and Sir Francis Burdett should be waitten to, to communicate their Lordship's acquiescence, on the stipu lation that Sir Francis Burdett would secure the public against being called upon to incur any ezpence. In a subsequent communication it was stated that the responsi bility rested on Sir F. Burdett, " who priposed himself to confer this advantage on the public."—(Hear, hear.) Mr. HUNT said, that this attempt to impose upon the public this piece of assurance—this piece of impudence— (A laugh)—was the most impudent attempt to impose on the House of Commons that he had known since he came into it. It was to ask a grant of money, taken out of the pockets of the spinners and weavers of Manchester, in order to save the Hon. Baronet, the Member for West- minster, from paying a sum for which he bad rendered himself responsible. He remembered the occurrence ; and when it was said that the pledge which the Hon. Baronet had given was a cheap way of getting returned again for Westminster. Who had brought forward the scheme of thus supplying the metropolis with water? One of the Hon. Baronet's own constituents, a Mr. Wright, who had written several pamphlets on the subject. He was glad that the expence had fallen o❑ one who was so able to pay it ; and he was sure that the Hon. Baronet would feel himself disgraced if he were to allow the public to pay the money after the pledge he had given. Mr. S. RICE thought that, in the absence of the Hon. Baronet (the Member for Westminster), and admitting the accuracy of the Right Hon. Baronet's quotation from the Treasury Minutes, it would be best to withdraw this particular vote until the House should be in full posses sion of all the information necessary to qualify them to form a judgment respecting it. He wished, however, to remove a mistaken impression of the Right Hon. Baronet. Government had never entertained so absurd and indefen sible a notion as that of undertaking to supply the metro— polis with water. The only question was, whether they could not obtain the knowledge necessary for the Compa nies to act upon. They never thought of assuming func tions which were wholly foreign to those belonging to them. Sir R. PEEL acquiesced is the proposition to withdraw the vote. Sir R. HERON was sure that, in the absence of the Hon. Baronet from severe indisposition, the Corninittte would agree to suspend the further consideration of the subject. Sir JOHN HOBHOUSE expressed the conviction that, whatever engagements his Hon. Friend and Col league had entered into he would perform. The trans action had been made a great deal of; and he had beard much that had fallen from Hon. Members with astonish ment. The facts were strictly these : the Right Hon. Baronet opposite had always discouraged the interference of Government in public works, and had recommended their being invariably left to individuals. But there were per sons who did not agree with the Right Hon. Baronet, and who were of opinion that there were objects which ought not to be left to private competition, and which could never be accomplished if they were. And now that it was proposed to vote 1,0001. for one of these purposes, they were told that it was a juggle. The facts, as they respected kis Hon. Friend, he perfectly recollected. After a reference in the Committee to the subject, his Hon. Friend being told that there would be some diffi culty in finding the money for the survey, said in con versation with him (Sir John Ilebhouse), " I would give the money out of my own pocket rather than it should not be done." He advised his Hon. Friend to make the offer, and the offer was made. He was confident, that whatever claim there might be on his Hon. Friend, he would answer it. Mr. GORDON observed, that the item was one not of estimate but of account. Too much time had been wasted on it. He thought that the whole subject of the Civil Contingencies ought to be referred to a Select Committee. Some of the items were of a singular description. For instance, there was the sum of 849/. 6s. lid. for removing the records belong to the Court of Common Pleas from Westminster-hall to the Old Mews; and the sum of 2,0001. to Mr. I3abliage, to enable him to proceed in constructing a machine for the calculation of various tables. He like wise objected to the grant of 923/. to Lord Plunkett as an outfit, when he had only to remove from the Court of Ex chequer to the Woolsack, and was consequently not put to any expense which could afford the slightest possible pre tence fur such a grant. Mr. S. RICE remarked that his Hon. Friend, perhaps, feeling that his talent did not lie in panegyric, had for borne to speak about the diplomatic expenditure. If he had, he could hardly fail to give Government praise for doing away with diplomatic presents, and thus putting an end to the periodical jokes upon thi+ subject. Lord Aber deen had already made a reduction in the diplomatic de partment to the amount of 11,0001. The present Go vernment hoped to extend this reduction next year to 15,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman explained also, that the charge of 8001. was not simply for ri moving the records, but for placing them in their new position and making arrangements for their security. He likewise ex plained that the sum of 2,0001. paid to Mr. Babbage, was simply to enable hint to finish a most useful machine which he had given to the public. He advised the Honourable Member to constitute himself into a Committee of Inquiry, and go and see the machine; lie would then be enabled to judge of its utility. He also remarked, that it was very odd that so ardent a supporter of Reiman should object to pay ing for that information which was necessary to ficilitate the progress of the Bill. Ira reply to the objection re specting the outfit of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, he moreover stated, that it had been always the custom to grant an outfit to the Chancellors both of England and Ireland. Lord Eldon, Lord Lyndhurst, and Lord Brougham had grants for an outfit in this country ; so had Mr, Ponsonhy, Sir Anthony Hart, and all other Chan cellors in Ireland. The reduction of the salary in Lord Plunkett's time surely aiThrtied no reason for making an exception with respect to him. Mr. R. GORDON said that it would be time enough to praise when the reductions were effected. Meantime he had no objection to give him credit for good intentions. He observed, that Lord Brougham himself had led him into the error respecting the Lord Chancellor's outfit, for he (Lard B.) had stated before the Committee that he had only as then received 4001. on account of his office. Besides, 2,0001. for his outfit was not among the Civil contingences for last year ; and certainly, when the Com mittee were fixing the salaries of the Lord Chancellors for England and Ireland, they never contemplated these outfits. Mr. P. COURTENAY, ailing to the grant of 5001. to Mr. Marshall, asked the reason of this payment. Mr. Marshall, he believed, was a friend of the lion. Member for Middlesex. Was it for assisting that Hon. Member in his calculations.—( Hear, and laughter.) Mr. HUME explained, that the grant was to enable Mr. Marshall to complete very valuable and statistical tables.—(Hear,) When the Right Hon. Gentleman saw the tables, he would approve of the grant. Mr. GOULBURN asked the Hon. Gentleman if this 5001. was to be the total of the whole expense incurred on account of his friend ? Mr. RiCE was understood to say, he knew of no en,- gagements for the future. Sir R. PEEL was better satisfied with the other items that with that which the Hon. Member for Middlesex toot under his care. He did not see the reason why Mr, Marshall zhnuld receive from the Government 5001. for the comptlation of hie statistical tables when they were prepared with a view to publication, and had been in fact very far advanced, before the Government undertook to give him the gratuity now proposed. Mr. RICE said that this grant was not intended as a gratuity, brit was merely payment for copies of Mr. Mar shall's tables furn;slied to the public offices. Mr. HUNT had been in no mall degree surprised by the conversations which passed between the eight Hon. Gentleman opposite and the Hon. Member for Middlesex. He remembered well the admiration with which he used to read that gentleman's speeches, storming the House— (Laughter)—and cutting down the estimates. From the slightness of the opposition which that Hon. Member was now giving to the estimates, he (Mr. Hunt) was very much disposed to press upon the House the measure pro posed by the Hon. Member for Dundalk—that is, that the estimates be referred to a Committee. He should like to know what became of the 32,0001. which was charged under the bead of rewards for the apprehension and con viction of the incendiaries? He had been applied to by many persons, who complained that they had not been ade quately rewarded. He did not see why, as a Member of that House, doing a public duty, he should allow the public money to be voted away without expressing his opinion about the purpose to which it was applied, lest he should he accused of being personal—(A laugh)—espvcially when the person to whom he should allude had not been at all nice in speaking of him, not only in his absence, but when he was in prison. That person was now certainly not in prison, but in the House of Lords—( laugh)—and as he and his family were receiving from the public so much as 30,0001. a year, he (Mr. Hunt) felt himself called on to protest against the allowance of 9001. for that Learned Nobleman's outfit. He had merely passed from one Court to another, and surely he could afford to equip himself for the journey out of the large sums which he drew from the Treasury. Mr. RICE, in reply to the question of the Hon. Mem ber for Preston, explained that the convicts with reference to whom the rewards had been given were 577 in num ber, and the rewat ds were distributed amongst 1,8E37 persons. The sums paid to those persons amounted to 28,2201. 125., and the expences of the Commissions added to that made up the sum of 32,000/. charged i❑ the estimates. He believed that the sums charged were rightly distributed, and rightly applied, and that the House would not object to the item. Mr. HUNT believed that much of the money was stopped on its way to the persons for whom it was intended. Mr. RICE was understood to say that that could not be the case, as the Treasury bad received authenticated receipts signed by the persons who were entitled to the rewards. The resolution was then agreed to, the item of 1,0001. to Mr. Telford being excepted, and postponed for consi deration on another night. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. The other orders of the day being disposed of, the House adjourned at Two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUAItY 13. The LORD CHANCELLOR, the Duke of RICHMOND, and the Earl of SHAFTESBURY, sat on the Woolsack as his Majesty's Commissioners, whe❑ the Royal Assent was given to the Buckingham Palace Bill, Court of Session (Scotland) Bill, the Woods and Forests, the Outstanding Lottery Tickets, and the Embezzlement Bills. Sir GEORGE RoniNsoN and other Members from the Commons brought up several private Bills. Lord CLONCURRY presented a petition from the county of Dublin, in favour of Reform ; also one from a place in Ireland for a commutation of the punishment of death in cases of forgery. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Brighton, praying to be re lieved from the burdens they were exposed to by the corn inqn law. The Sacramental Test Act went through a Committee, and was reported without amendments. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved for various re turns connected with the cholera morbus, and, in so doing, said this proceeding was intended to ground a mo tion which he meant to introduce to enable parishes to tax themselves, in order to meet the expenses to which they might be put in older to meet this insidious disease. The Earl of WICKLOW once more called the atten , tion of the House to the present state of the Irish Magi- stracy. The time was now come when the present Go vernment could no longer permit that country to be in the state in which it now was. The local Magistracy must either take up their commissions, or the Government must ap point stipendiary Magistrates in every part of the country. The Irish Magistracy had refused to pay for the new com missions, and whether they were right or wrong, it was necessary that the subject should be inquired into, for the purpose of clearing those Magistrates from the odium which had been thrown upon them in another place. The great body of the Magistracy refused to comply with this demand, and those that had done so, did it under a strong protest as to the legality of those fees. He wished to know from the Noble and Learned Lord (Plunkett) whether from his recent experience he thought that the Magistrates were likely to return to the exercise of their official duties ? Lord PLUNKETT said he was satisfied that the Noble Lord had made this appeal to him from no unfriendly mo tive, but the very contrary, and he should certainly answer it in the same spirit. Whether he should afford that satis faction which the Noble Lord was desirous to obtain on this subject, he could not tell ; but this be begged to say, before he went farther, that the state of this case was much altered since the Noble Lord had on a former occasion ad verted to it in that House. With respect to the grounds en which the payment of those fees was resisted by the Magistrates in Ireland, he apprehended that they had not been correctly stated. A great number of the Magistrates there declined to pay those fees, but amongst their grounds for doing so, as far as they came to his knowledge, there was no allegation as to the illegality of the fees. The Ma gistrates in refusing to pay them merely stated that they conceived that there was great injustice and impolicy in their being called upon to pay fees on the taking out of their commissions which were not required from the Ma gistrates of this country. That was the ground, as far as he had understood the matter from the Magistrates of Ireland, that they resisted the payment of those fees, and not on the ground of their being illegal. Now with re spect to that point he begged to say a word. At the time the Magistrates in Ireland made those complaints, the law in Ireland differed from the law i❑ England on this sub ject : all fees on demise of the Crown, with very few ex ceptions, having been abolished in England by Act of Parliament, and especially by the Ist of William IV. That was a law, it was to be recollected, passed under the late Administration, and there existed a Treasury minute which had been made by the Lords of the Treasury under the late Administration, i❑ reference to it. He did not mean to say that for that law, and for that Treasury minute, his Majesty's present Ministers were not respon sible : what he meant to say was, that all he had to do was to the best of his judgment to execute the law of the country. One of the provisions of the Act to which he had just adverted was, that compensation should be made to several persons who would be entitled to certain fees on the demise of the Crown, and for the labour then per formed by them. On that Act the Treasury sat, and in the month of September, 1830, that minute was made to which before he sat down he should call the attention of their Lordships. Since he had arrived in London during the last week, he had for the first time heard it alleged that the fees which the Irish Magistrates bad been called upon to pay could not be legally demanded. It was his bounden duty to see that no illegal fees were demanded by those persons or officers who might be considered as pe culiarly under his controul : if it appeared that any ille gal fees had been so demanded, it would in that case have bee❑ his duty to have instituted an inquiry into the mat ter. But no such allegation was made by the Magis trates in Ireland on the subject, and it was not, as he had already said, until his arrival in town, within the last few days, that he had heard that an allegation to that effect was made in another place. The fres in question were payable to the Lord Chan cellor's secretary, his purse-bearer, and train-bearer, and to the hall-porter. He had no reason to doubt the legality of those fees, the more especially as the Commissioners who had been appointed some years ago to inquire into the Courts of Justice in Ireland, and who in their reports censured some fees as unjust, and such as ought not to be enforced, did not do so with regard to the fees in question. In fact those fees had existed from time immemorial. They were to be found in the list of fees published by the House of Lords in 1731,, and they were legally payable under• an Act of Parliament passed at that time. He was not of course, under such circumstances, to be held per sonally responsible for the fees demanded in his office, un less he had reason to think that such fees were illegal, and should not be demanded. The insinuation that had been thrown out, that he (Lord Plunkett) had acted in this affair in a manner he ought not to have done, because the individual who tilled the office of his secretary was his relative, was an insinuation, be believed he might say, totally unworthy of his character, and he was sure that he might safely oppose the whole tenor of his life to such an u nwarrantable charge as that.,-.( Hear, hear,) It had been remarked by a learned person in another place, that hia (Lord Plunkett's) secretary only received 5001. a year, and that he did not know what became of the rest of the money. He was sure that the learned individual could out possibly mean to convey by such a statement as that, that be (Lord Plunkett) would endeavour to snake up for a defi cient salary to his secretary by the enforcement of illegal fees, or by any unworthy or unjustifiable means of such a description. Now the simple facts of the case were these :—When Sir A. Hart was appointed Lord Chancel lor of Ireland, he named Mr. Long as his secretary. When he (Lord Plunkett) succeeded Sir A• Hat in that office, he nominated his nephew, Mr. M. Causland, to the situation of his secretary. However, Mr. Long having had much experience in that situation, and several harris- ters having expressed a desire that he should continue his services to the Court, at his (Lord Plunkett's) request Mr. Long agreed to give his assistance to his secretary, and he (Lord Plunkett) agreed, on such conditions, that his secretary, out of his emoluments, should pay Mr. Long 5001. a year. Mr. Long having already filled the office, and being well acquainted with its duties, he thought it right to secure his services, and be would leave it to their Lordship? judgment to say whether he had not been warranted in doing so. He begged once for all to say, that he (Lord Plunkett) did not in any man ❑er share in the emoluments of any person appointed by him. Of course no such charge bad been preferred by any gentleman against him, but he satisfied his own mind in making the declaration.—(Hear.) It had been said that the demand for those fees was illegal, as the warrants were not made out at the time. He should not trouble their Lordships at present with a discussion as to whether they were legal or not, but he begged to say that he certainly considered them legal. The warrants signed by him on the desire of his late Majesty were 32 in number, for the 32 counties in Ireland. There were not warrants for each individual Magistrate, but the warrants in question contained the names of every Magistrate i❑ the particular county to which such warrant was addressed, and it appeared to him that a warrant for the whole of the Magistracy was a warrant for all the Magistrates indivi dually. The usual course, then, for the Magistrates to pursue was, to apply for warrants to the office of the Lord Chancellor's secretary, which were not signed by the Lord Chancellor, and to get their dedirnus from him, which they could not otherwise get. _As he had already said, he had never heard it asserted that the demand for these fees was an illegal one, until be arrived here last week, and the moment that such an assertion reached him he put the matter in train for the purpose of obtain ing the opinion of the Attorney-General of Ireland with regard to it. It was under the Treasury minute of September, 1830, over which he had no controul, that those fees were demanded; and under those circum- stances he (Lord Plunkett) had no right to interfere with the legal claims of those who demanded those fees, or to tell t hem that they should only demand the same fees that were enforced in England. It was said that the labour in this instance had been exceedingly little, if any at all. Now he could assure their Lordships that the secretaries in his secretary's office had, during the last four or five months, been laboriously employed ever since the measure of appointing Lord Lieu tenants of counties in Ireland had taken place, in main taining a continual correspeudence, under his (Lord Plun kett's) superintendence, with the Lord Lieutenants of counties there, the assistant barristers, and the clerks of the peace, on the various subjects connected with the ad ministration of justice in their respective counties. The Treasury minute made under the late Administration, and to which he should now refer their Lordships, was dated September 2S, 1830. The Lords of the Treasury having met on that day, proceeded to consider the Act of Parliament which had been just passed relative to the fees payable on the demise of the Crown, and he would read an extract of the minute which they had made on the subject. Here the Noble Lord read an extract, which was to the effect that the Lords of the Treasury, consider ing the number and variety of the instruments that were to be renewed on the demise of the Crown, did not think it possible to fix the remuneration for each individual case, but that they deemed it more advisable, that in all such cases there should be a specific average rate of remunera tion awarded, proportionate to the amount which the per son making out such an instrument would be entitled to claim under ordinary circumstances, regard being had to the labour required in the preparation of the said instru ment. The minute proceeded to state, that it was the opinion of their Lordships that in all such cases a moiety only of the fees payable under the Act should be paid to all such persons, as being a due and proper remuneration for the labour performed. He (Lord Plunkett) was not aware of the existence of the minute until he heard of it from his Noble Friend (the Secretary for the Home De partment). That Noble Lord, immediately after the ac cession of the present Administration to office, wrote to him (Lord Plunkett) as to the necessity for having the commissions of the Magistrates that had expired on the demise of the Crown renewed. In reply, he stated to the Noble Lord that there would be no delay on the sub ject, but that it would be necessary for the Lords of the Treasury to fix the remuneration for making them out. Accordingly, his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary for Ireland, wrote to the Lords of the Treasury to know what that was to be. The Lords of the Treasury then made a minute, confirming the principle of the minute made in the previous September, and stating that such remuneration should be given as was sufficient to compensate the officer for the actual time and labour employed in preparing such instruments. Copies of these were then transmitted to him in Ireland, and it was then fur the first time that he was aware of their existence. On perusing them, he had no doubt their meaning was that a moiety,--that was to say, the one-half of those fees which had been hitherto payable should be paid for the preparation of those instruments, and his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary, had also no doubt the Act of Parliament and the Trea sury minutes made under it clearly and explicitly meant that one-half of those fees should be paid. However, on his (Lord Plunkett's) arrival last week, he found, to his great surprise, that it was stated in another place, that it was the opinion of the Lords of the Treasury there should be no compensation given unless for the actual la bour done; and on inquiry he really found such really was the case, and that a minute had been made by their Lord ships so far hick as January, 1831. The Noble Lord having read that minute, which was to the effect he had mentioned, proceeded to say, that if this minute had been issued in the previous November, instead of the one that he had already read to the House, none of the mistakes which had taken place would have occurred. He had given orders to have the fees to the purse-bearer and the train-bearer discontinued, arid he had sent orders to his secretary to demand that amount of remuneration only which was due for the actual labour done, in accordance with the principle laid down in the Treasury minute of January, 1831.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord would now see what l:e meant when he said the case had been much altered since he had adverted to it on a former occa sion. He trusted he had satisfied the House that he had acted in this matter merely under an erroneous impression, in consequence of his not having been aware of the exist ence of the Treasury minute of January, 1831, and he begged to thank the Noble Lord for having afforded him this opportunity to make the explanation he had given to their Lordships. Lord LORTON said, that the Magistrates of Ireland considered those fees both illegal and unjust. Earl WICKLOW said he had not received an answer to the question which he had put to the Noble and Learned Lord, —namely, whether, under existing circumstances, Magistrates would be willing to take up their licences? The explanation given to his Noble and Learned Friend afforded him at least one piece of information, as it proved to him that the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland ought to have been better acquainted with the subject than he appeared to have been; otherwise he would not have thrown out those gross aspersions on the magistracy of Ireland which he had thought fit to do.—(Hear, hear.) That Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have attended to the situation of Ireland during the four weeks which had elapsed in the recess. Why the Right Hon. Gentleman had not done so he could not tell ; but it was a fact worthy of notice, that it was precisely during those four weeks that the mistake or misapprehension had occurred, and bad he bee❑ acquainted with the circumstance, it might have been satisfactorily arranged. If there were any thing in the atmosphere of Leland so hot and fiery that the Right Hon. Gentleman could not bear it—if his constitution were not salamandrine enough to endure the climate—he had better retire from the office, and make room for those who would attend to its duties. Lord PLUNKETT said, that in his opinion be bad given a very plain answer to the interrogatory of the Noble Lord. lie thought that the Magistrates ought to have submitted to the inconvenience of paying their fees, what ever question might afterwards have arisen, and thus have maintained their usual situation i❑ society. They should not, on the mere allegation that justice was not done to them as it was done to the Magistracy of England, have abstained from paying the fees, and continuing to officiate. Now, however, that the matter was explained by the last Treasury minute, be did not doubt that the Magistrates would proceed in their usual course.—(Hear, hear.) The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that the observations which had been made with respect to the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland were wholly un called fur. So far as he knew the Right lion. Gentle roan personally, or by reputation, he was the last person who could fairly be accused of neglecting his duty.— (Hear, hear.) There never was a Secretary for Ireland who possessed more ability, or who, in the performance of his duties, evinced greater zeal, application, or attention. Lord CLONCURRY observed, that looking back to the old time, and the old system, mere paupers were not un frequently elected to the magisterial authority in Inland, fur the purpose of serving party and political purposes. He believed that at one period about a moiety of the ma gistracy stood in that situation. At the demise of George 111., not more than one-third of the Magistrates paid their fees. He was certain that no gentleman of property and respectability would refuse to pay those fees. The former fees, though exorbitant, were discharged ; but how Why they were handed over silently from one member of the Government to another. The Earl of LIMERICK denied that the statement of the Noble Lord, with reference to persons formerly placed fn the Commission of the Peace in Ireland, was correct. The Noble Lord asserted, that (luring a long period in the reign of Goorge 111., paupers were named as Magistrates for political purposes. He never knew that persons of that description had ever been placed on the list of Magistrates; he was not aware of any political purposes that the Ma gistrates were called upon to serve. Gentlemen were appointed to save the country from rebellion, and to pre vent any set of persons, high or low, from overturning the Constitution of the land ; gentlemen were selected who would not associate with the rabble, or with those who encouraged them in the infraction of the law. When the Noble Lord said that a moiety of the Magistracy, at the time of which he spoke, were paupers, and were appointed for merely party purposes, he ought to have known better than to make 'such an assertion. Lord CLIFDEN was sorry to differ from the Noble Earl who spoke last, but he believed that no doubt existed as to the appointment of improper persons to the Ma gistracy of Ireland. The Marquis of WESTMEATEI said the Magistrates, than whom a more zealous or praiseworthy body did not exist, refused to pay the sums demanded, though it was small, because they considered that it was an improper charge. Here the matter ended, and the house adjourned. TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN. SIR,—In sending you the following plan for the improvement of municipal police, I take the oppor tunity of offering a few observations to the public through the medium of your widely circulated Journal. It will not be, I suppose, disputed, that the first, the paramount duty of every Government, is to ensure the protection of the persons and pro perty of all the subjects who owe allegiance to it. Nor will it be denied, I hope, in this free country, that whilst the Government is thus bound to afford full and efficient protection, it is also bound to afford that protection in the way which may appear to be least dangerous to the liberty of the subject. If these principles be admitted, it follows as a necessary conclusion, that in a free State like this, exposed from its very freedom to occa sional ebullitions of party or popular violence, the civil force should have sufficient strength to re press all such outbreakings of public tumult ; thus, on the one band, preserving the King's peace, and on the other, preventing the necessity of a too frequent recurrence to the employment of military force. Not that I conceive that the liberties of this country would be at present in any danger from the mili tary, nor that I imagine that any civil force could enable us to dispense with a very strong and power ful military force, always ready to be brought for ward in case of actual necessity. Whilst then I should deprecate, as fatal to public confidence, as injurious to our proper influence as a nation, and as quite uncalled for and unnecessary, any wider reduc tion of the military than may be fully and entirely justified by circumstances (and at present no such reduction does seem possible), on the other hand, I maintain that the Government is bound to establish so efficient a police, as may not render necessary the employment of troops except in cases of indispensible necessity. Lamentable, indeed, would be the state of things, disgraceful to our character as a free and enlightened nation, and derogatory to the character of our much boasted la, s, if it were necessary that the military should be called out on every trivial occasion to ensure the preset vation of the public peace. Highly appreciating, as I must do, the character of the British army, and holding as van the idea that it would ever injure the domestic liberties of that country whose independence abroad it defended with such heroism and gallantry, still looking a t t he principles of our Constitution, I should regret ever to see the day when we were offered the alternative of anarchy on the one hand, or of military interfe rence on the other. It is to prevent the occurrence of such a dilemma that I press the prompt adoption of a firm and efficient police. The present is 0 great national crisis; we are engaged in bringing about a great (in my opinion a beneficial), but still it must be allowed, a great revolution in the present state of our representation. I, for one, believe that its effects will prove beneficial to the empire; but we must not conceal, it were worse than folly to conceal, that times of revolution are also times u t i great excitement ; and if I maintain the wisdom o' the proposed Reform, I also admit that it is the dull of Government to preserve the public peace fron t any dangers which may arise during its discussion!, and to ensure to the opponents of Reform, as to a° other subjects of the King, full and perfect securiq of persons and properly. Never let it be sa l ° that whilst engaged in this great contest fur free, dom of representation, the English contradicte' l their professions by their actions, and whilo proclaiming liberty, exercised despotism °ve t their opponents. No, let it be rather said tbe, t we fought our battle, that we gained our constl # tutional triumph, by no arts but manly ar s ; and let, posterity point to us as an example how at 00 4 freedom may be ensured, and licentiousness be re pressed. Let us prove that we could reach 111" freedom which Montesquieu so highly eulogized, ye steer clear of that violence which he so strongly 1:1 ( precated and feared. The storm of the political, of the physical world, often clears the atmosphere, and to borrow a beautiful expression of Lot!, Erskine's, " charms into healthy action the dense; which otherwise would stagnate into pestilence; but it is the part of a wise Government to condo e # , into a safe channel the lightning which may oth e ' wise destroy the citadel of the Constitution. No o let us suppose that when the Bristol riots broy out, disturbances had occurred, at the same time', other towns, how lamentable might the co l / quences have been ; and how easily may such el, l/ sequences be averted by establishing a regular pol l in all large towns, and organizing the constabul force. Need I point out how such measures would pt: serve confidence ; how they would establish credr how they would re-open the now closed sluices national prosperity, and awaken into fresh life s b htalthy action the spirit and enterprise of ENO; men ? The political deluge has left no lan ai place for this spirit in other parts of Europe; from them by the tempest, let the spirit of ce,l mercial and manufacturing enterprise here fl i t shelter from the storms that desolate other kingd ir; Need I point out how such measures would crease our influence abroad? Need I allude to i d effect produced in other countries, if they 1 01 ., that we had so strong a civic force for preserl:; public peace at home, that we need never hesi 7 i t an instant to send our troops to resent ire) abroad ? Thus might the Ministers of the prei / M day realize the boast of Chatham, that whilst, ` 4 % itl one hand, he upheld the liberties of the country4d the other he successfully combated the united '" of her foreign foes. I fr In concluding, let me remark, that I shou- j lic the last man to recommend any system of 1 )° 0 that should he inimical to the liberties of Bog': 1 But I conceive that a well-regulated plan 01 4, preserve their liberties ; and it is my fervent P r l d that not only liberty, the birth-right of every fir' I may descend unimpaired to our latest posteri but that it may also be preserved pure and utialZ , ' by licentiousness. " Happy, thrice happy I °, land T." observed to me one of those illu str l exiles, who having fought for liberty in Poland , taken refuge here—" Happy England I whose tir, have gone on increasing in importance, whose eof,, has progressively accumulated, whose fields are il i desolated, whose towns are not burnt, 0 0 hearths are not violated by that greatest c e ir curses, the curse of civil war Your Judges, 1 1 in the most disturbed times, have gone the ei rc' t your Habeas Corpus may have been suspende d e 'ilt„ nev er except with the consent of your Parliai ll D r, and amidst all the storms and tempests with : 4 /, you may have been visited, that palladium 0 1 or liberties, Trial by Jury, has stood not only uno c ro i 9 by the lightning, but sanctified by the verse of ages.uch' 06‘ ) S, or somewhat similar, were his obsel/'