The Sun. — London, England, 1801-04-02 00:00:00

ilia. a ~.v~•• • '.."•.F.1".", .... ..ir..~ .. v " bO pardon for troubling the Committee so long ;and cpnctuded with moving his Resolutioas respeaing the- Taxes. .. . . . . Sir 30fIN PA . RNELL made sofne general 0b . .. sexvations on that part of,the Right Hot), Gentle man's_ staternent . which respeaed the separate Charges c of Ireland. He wished to know whether the Hon. , Gentleman wished to avail himself of the balances of " - list-:Oat,` whatever"` tieara* Ihillirilien Be' aUe r t Kr, CORRY, across _the Table, replied in the af_ :.. fitmative, with respell to the balance s as they al)._ peitied on the 4st of January last.l Sir Jottri then objected to the mode of statement, as tending to mislead* , The balance in the Treasury, on the Ist 0f January, was stated as exceeding one million ; bat,: at the same time, the. arrears. amounted ,to ihoye.46oo,ooot. so that there appeared a defici encrof boo,oool. to make. good the difference be tween the balance and the arrears ; the Public, therefore, so far from having •an advantage from the balance, ought 'to be stated as proportionally losers to the above amount. Viewing . the subjea in this light, he begged to know of the Right Hon. Gentleman how all the balance could now be brought into credit, and made to operate in favour of the Ways and Means ? The arrears, whether amounting to nearly the same sum , or whatever the ' amount might be, ought, in. his mind, to be de duited froth the general account. With regard to the Loan and the Taxes proposed, if together, they but little exceeded five millions, they would make but an insufficient provision for the expences of the yells; - What lie 'looked to the circumstances of Ire . land, and the balance of trade which was so much against her, he must consider the system - of fresh Loans as destruetive to that. Country. By paying OfF the interest of the former debt by a new Loan, was the first step leading io a National Bankruptcy, There had been a Law passed in the last Parliament of Ireland, enabling the Public to borrow 1,4.00,0001. in addition to the usual Supplies of the yea:. Why then was 600,0001. now to be brought forward as a charge, if the means of providing for this sum was made the last year ? ,With respea to the expenses of Ireland conheaed with this Country, the whole of which were incurred in Ireland, although not to be-'paid there, Sir Jo it st said, he could not see how these eipences could be brought so low as 4,60ch0001. The expences of Ireland last year had amounted to seven millions, besides an additional sum accruing of 700,0001. there was the interest of the debt phy. 'Ole by Ireland of 1,6°0,0001. amounting in all to the sum of 9,300,0001. so that after deducing that part of the debt chargeable on Ireland, there would still remain the sant . of 2,300,0001. to be placed to the account of Great Britain. But Nvhera the Right Hon. Gentleman talked of the advantage: to Ireland from part of the expence falling upOo Great Britain, be must remind him,of the -sformer.sitnation Of lie. land, and of the additional expence of her separate charge in consequence of., the Union. Her whole • expense in the year of' the Rebellion was 3,F00,0001. atld row she paid at the rate of . seven, n . tillions . ... Sir to tbeMilitaryr PIM said, that u ith Jespea. 4stablishment, the . argument ,of the Right Hon. Cpeogeman appeared to him more spec ious than so. lid : that' paid nothing additional, from England the whole Army's being liable to serve . in this '!,-,,. ,' :ciiantry if circuaotances So required ; for it ought -!. tnbc:CoMictered that England paid that at present,. MI*NCH' she would not have been liable to according H -in Ihe former bargain with Ireland. If British ~ Troops formerly served in Ireland, Ireland was bound to pay them ; but if these Troops served iii . ~ Ireland now, and England was bound to pay them, . ;he thus incurred an additional charg e to which she ii,_ . ' would not have been liable formerly. With regard ' -, ft to the expences of Ireland, be was sorry to remark, that they were every car increasing, : nor did he • see any prosper - of their diminishing, for articles of texpense were almost daily brought forward, .altho' it might have been expetteci• from the Union, that • - as - the array of a distin& Government, Offices became unnecessary, that a considerable reduc. L Lion of ' expellee might have: been effetaed. A "lumber of articles of expellee, although trivial In themselves;'had been incurred, and he thought it was the ditty - of the Imperial Parliament to look into them; for, though small In themselves, they considerably increased the aggregate amount, and ira there was thdvantage from Great Britain having joined in .the esApences of Ireland, that it became her interest toome.that there was no unnecessary cx. penditure. He trusted, therefore, that the atten. lion of the House would be particularly direCled to the affairs of Ireland. With respeCt to the 'faxes, Ireland paid its proportion to the whole 'faxes of ,the Empire, besides which, : there were several ' which operated as local Taxes. This remark ap. .plied'to Gentlemen from Ireland, Members of Par. lianient, ' and others corning to reside in this Coun. ;, try, who, in several respeas, might . be said to be d9obly taxed. After briefly noticing the proposi tion of transferring the Coal Duty from England to I re land, the increased Post-Office Duty, &c. Sir Jo/4N _ said, he should defer till another opportunity his remarks in detail upon these objets of taxation. With regard to the Window Light Duty, he would just state, as a peculiar hardship, that in irciand this Duty was'continued to the end of the year, al though the Occupiers of houses did not continue'tlit same number of window s ~ this he considered as contrary to the principle of the. Union, which was, that there should be no severer mode of taxation in Ireland than in England. Sir, jouu said, that it had not been stated from what provision the super bundance of expense falling upon England was to 'be paid, although he supposed it was to be out of the &Lacquer:. He was convinced that the expences of Irelandrhad:risen in such a rapid proportion, , eve ' cially within the last two years, that by an .accu ., ululation of debt, the ruin of that Country would be • accelerated. lie could not avoid 'remarking that grants of money had been made of late with an unusual profusion. "He could not help looking to that Article .of Union, that whenever the debt of Ireland arose to the proportion of two 17 the of the P. debt of Great Britain, that then the system of taxa . lion-should be equalized in both Countries ;. but if this shouldever be the case, it would ruin the Coun try of Ireland. He wished that whatever the ex_ pences of Ireland were, that they might be provided for as far as possible wit,hin. the len, for. otherwise, s y s tem of increasing Loans, would to promote a (' , • prove ruinous to both Countries. called for a. diminution df the expenses df Ireland, but he must know that this could not be effetled till the present state of that Country was changed ; but whenever that should happen, he might be as- Snred there would be a reduaion of expences. The state of its Military Establishment, during several successive years, had been the principal cause of the additional expense ; together with the increasing interest of the Debt. But several articles, under the head of . -Compensations, Navigation, &c. amounting to a considerable sum, would ,gradually cease, and cause a proportionable decre'ak of the National Expenditure. What the Right Hon. Ba ronet had stated, that if the Taxes were insuffici ent to cover the Loan, the Country was going to ruin, was true, as a proposition - abstractedly cop sidered, but what he had had the honour of bringing forward more than covered the Expenditure. With respeft to the balances, the Honourable Gentleman had stated their amount three quarters of a year back, whereas he had stated their amount on the Ist of Jan. t Sot, the day when the Union between the two Countries was to take effea, and which balances amounted on that day to the sum of 1,697,0001. Sir 101 IN PARNELL said it seemed to him extraordinary whence this balance was to arise, as the aetual expences of the former year were stated as only sufficient for the purposes of it. Ey. the au thority of Parliament, the whole of the money voted vas appropriated, and therefore he siispeaed that &itch balances would not arise, as well as that the proposed Taxes would not cover the deficiency.— Nor was the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his opi nion, authorised to take the balance in the Trea sury on the tst of Jan. as applicable to the service of the current yeii, inasmuch as there were debts to an equal, if not a greater amount, then due. Mr. CORRY assured the Right Hon. Baronet, that every possible attention had been paid by she proper Officers to bring forward every Account ; for this purpose they had laboured indefatigably , during the usual time of recess at the Christmas Ho lidays, and that every Account possible might be paid off. The Treasury had been shut from the zsth of December to the sth of January ; the sum due from the zsth Of December :to the tst of Ja. nuary (the day when the Union took effea) was necessarily brought to the account of the present year. The Hon. Baronet kneW' that there were certain items of the Civil .List always rieceSiarily in arrear, and from which small sums alight unavoid ably remain due ; but there were none which would not in due course be altogether liquidate d. The most extraordinary exertions had been made to dis charge every thing that could be discharged ; and nothing was left of so important a nature as to war rant the Charge that the arrears were not provided for. Sir 70 . !IN PARNELL said, he knew that there must unavoidably be considerable arrears, and tivt as they were incapable of being paid off, so like wise there must be balances left afloat, but as credit ought not to be given for the arrears, neither ought credit to be taken for the balances. Re still doubted whether the balances at the Ist of Jan. could be made applicable to the expences of the current year, and for the remainder of the Loan to be brought forward. The Question was t h en put upon the Resolutions, when, the House being resumed, the Report was ordered to,be received to.morrow. LOTTERY, Mr. ADDIAVGTON said, it fell to his lot to propose the assistance of a Lottery, in aid Of the Ways and Means for raising the Supplies fin' the year ; the profit of which to the Public would amount to 201,2501. He said it was impossible to expert so large a profit to the Public as had been ob. tamed the last year, when, in consequence of the bargain which was then made, considerable loss had fallen upon the Holders of Tickets, as not more than 34,000 Tickets had been sold at the commence ment of the Lottery. There were various circum stances which might have occasioned this falling off present high price of Provi. in the sale, such_as the sions, Poor Rates, and articles of taxation, which obliged many persons to retrench in their articles of expenditure. On all these accouOts_ he had been given to understand, that in consequence of the loss which had been sustained, the last year, he must expet very different proposals now. He then men. tioned, that it had been usual with the CHANCEL- Lott of the EXCHEQUER to state upon paper what was the lowest profit which he would accept, and to leave that Paper sealed up with the Governor and Deputy Governor of the Bank. Three Patties had offered terms, but none of them coming up to what he had proposed to accept, he had desired them to re-con sider their proposals; the Bidders accordingly retired with them, and upon their return, the highest bid ding was accepted. He had been desirous to ascer tain what had heed the amount of the profit to the Public during the last ten or' twelve years 'of the Lottery.—ln 1793 it had amounted to 175,0001. k in 1797 to 146,2531. ; in 1798 to 167,9161. and in 1799 to 203,54.11. ; from whence it would ap. pear that the profits in several of these years were lower than the amount of the Bargain which he had made yesterday. He had had the satisfaaion of learning from Gentlemen experienced in this busi. ness from the Governor of the Bank and others, that the Bargain entered upon was one which ought not to be rejeded. Mr. ADD lataTow then moved, that towards raising the Supply to be granted to His MAJESTY, the's= of 201,2501. be raised by way of Lottery, consisting of 50,000 Tickets at the rate of 141. os. 6d. a Ticket, and that the ContraEtors make a depo sit of 11. os. 6d. in respell; of the money to be paid by them as a security for the . .p:iytnent of the re mainder. The Resolution being agreed to, the Report was ordered to be received to.morrow, and on Monday set - Might the House to resolve itself into a Com mittee on said Report. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ap peared at the Bar, and being called from the Chair, said—if I am commanded by His MAJESTY to lay before this House, Copies and Extrads of Pa pers containing Secret Information received by His Ntajesty's.Government relative to the State afire_ land, and Proceedings of certain DisaffeCted Persons in both parts of the United Kingdom.", _ above, being read ; The CliitilC.ELLdit, of, the Exeiiiii2Ooii slid; " The Title of the Papers which I have this day presented io the House s describe the objeft to which the Papers refer, and, chat to which it is my duty very shortly' to call the attention of the House. Sir, it has been in the recollection oe the House, that on a Motion made for leave to bring in a Bill for the more effe&ual Suppression of Re bellion in Ireland, and for affording more complete protettion to the persons and property Of His. Ma jesty's Loyal., Subjects in .that part of the United Kingdom, an expettation was expressed by some, and a wish expressed • by many Members, that some information shouldhave been laidbcforo them, before their acquiescence . Was to be had to that measure. Sir, that expeaation was undoubtedly parliamentary, and I believe, although I was nor then a Member of this House, it appeared that it was only in consequence of the peculiar circumstan ces of that time, and the situation of Ireland, that this House was induced to suffer that Bill to pro ceed without that preliminary Inquiry. It must, therefore, be satisfactory to the House at this time, that before any proposition is made for the altera tion of that Bill, or the extension of it, Hts MA- 7 r -e•• yr ••• t../ %lb La go Uri 11111 SU MC 1.11114 aIS Ern , is advised to lay before this House Papers relative to Ireland. Sir, I heartily wish I could stop here ; but a subjea which has already attraa ed the attention of this House, demands notice—l" mean that System which is conneaed with the ef forts of the Internal' and Foreign Eurmies of this Country, to subvert our glorious Constitution. I did hope it would not have been necessary, as far as Great Britain is concerned, to call the attention of the House to this subjea ; bta unfortunately the malignant spirit which is in perpetual alliance with disaster and internal difficulty, has not been able to resist the temptation afforded to it by the distress occasioned by the high price of the articles of life, of making that public distress, or rather, I would say,, of endeavouting to make the public distress, although fruitlessly, 1 hope, the instrument of pub lic perversion. Sir, it is not for me now to expa tiate, it is not my intention to go minutely into the discussion of that subjea..;: it will be best disclosed, or rather, it will be best investigated, from the Papers now before you. . It is enough for me at present to say; His Majesty's Ministers were possessed of in formation which they conceive to be their duty to lay before Parliament, . and that these Papers should be put into a proper mode for investigation, which is that of referring them to a Committee. I will not anticipate the measure, which it may be the duty of the House to take after the Report is made ;. that Avill be for the House to consider after they shall be in possession of that Report—Whether any, and what measure should be adopted, I shall not •now presume to say—l shall therefore move, Sir, " That ',the Papers presented this day to the House by His MA JESTY'S Command, be referred to a Commit- Mr. T/ERNEl'said, - he should certainly not op.. pose the Motion for referring these Papers to a Committee ; that he 'thought only a matter per fe6ily regular; and indeed of course ; but he could not help expressing his surprize arid concern at what he had heard. He did expea that a measure to an_ nom. die Pc.pto oC oglanA iii any respea, 'whatever might be thought of any other of his Subjefts, should have made the s l ubjed of a separate and distinet Message from His MA JESTY ' • that, he was , con fi dent, would be grateful to the feelings of that House. He thought that this slight allusion was not all the House had a right to expeft from His Majesty's Ministers upon 'so very important a subjed as this. He said this the more firmly, in consequence of recolleaing the Speech of the late CHANC ELLOR of the EXCH E. QU ER upon a late Debate, in which that Right Hon. Gentleman had, in the most handsome terms, expressed his gratitude to the People or England for their patience under their sufferings. It was sur prizing, that so soon after such a' testimony in he half of their virtue, such a communication should follow, and which might lead to some measure that would deeply affeft the charafter of that House. — He meant to go no further into that matter at pre sent ; but with 'regard to Ireland, he thought the communications perfeftly right : An Inquiry should be gone into upon that head, because so very rigor ous a measure as that of adopting Martial Law over any class of our Fellow-subjeds, should not take place on the assertion of any Gentlemen, who, however respeftable, and although they spoke .what they believed to be truth, could not speak other wise than under the impression of very strong pre. judice. He would add, however, one word more on the other matters : it was to express \a hope, that the Committee to whom the subjca was to be referred, should be composed of men from all parts of •the House, without any referenCe to Party, so that the thing should be conduaed with all the purity which might be expeaed to attend the investigation of an abstraft,question. In a word, that the Committee should consist of such men as that their Report should give to the Public perfed satisfation.' He abstained from saying one word more, except that of repeating, that he was a good deal surprized at the subject of this Communication by His Majesty's Command. He hoped, however, the result would be, that the new Ministers would appear to have taken up an unjust and unfounded alarm, on the disposition of any part of His Ma. jesty's British Subjefts, and that the mistake must be set down to their eagerness to perform their duty. Lord HAWKESBURY said, he had but very few words to utter upon the subjeft. There ap. peared to be no difference of Opinion on the Motion now before the 1-lousc',.;viliich was that of referring the Communication 'triad6'bY Command, to a Com mittee. With - respea to the state of Ireland, un doubtedly when the Bill fir Martial Law Iva:, brought in, His Malesty's Ministers thought that an Inquiry would have been a very proper measure to have preceded that Bill, and the only reason for passing the-Bill without it was, that in a few days that measure, so essential to the safety of Ireland, would have expired,'. so that there was not time for making that Inquiry.; but the present Parlia ment had a great deal of recommendation to that Bill, and very respedable evidence of its neces;ity ; they bad the authority of the late rarlianietit of ifehiridi dr i 1 .the the GentiY, And best iilortfied pettont of tha t : P a * of His Majesty's d.olninibils in tai , titif of theßill; that, upon.the, ethergency Of ijte thing, was sufficient . for passing the Bill for' the Short period of three menthsvprid in the mean time Parliament Would hare sufficient opportunity of investigating the matter; and comi ng to - a determination' whether it should be continued or not. Now with 'regard to the state of this' Country ; he could have wished; as he once . hoped; as much as any man; and In_ that he felt a sentiment which was common to the Men:_ hers of that House ; and to the intelligent and virtuous part of this Country, that no rause existed for any Inquiry of this kind, He felt what the Hon. Gets.. tleman who spoke last had alluded to; very foci.. bly ; it was great satisfaftibn -to him, that amidst an tinpatalieleci distress; arising from the high price of provisions ) there certainly never was a time when the Loyalty of the People of England Was mire conspicuous than during the last twelire months but unfortunately, in the course of the:last few weeks, persons who are always disposed to takd vantage of any - calamity, from whatever ear se it.. may arise, to infeCt the minds of the People; and for an °Ned of which such persons never lose sight the destration of the British Constitution-persons who had so often endeavoured to put their principles in praffice, and on whose condud the Parliament hid felt so just an alarm, .and provided such pro:. per remedy ; those persons had been of late busy ; for the truth of which, without going into particulars at this moment,. he. appealed to those .dithers of the -• tiouse :who came from the most populous and manUfaauring Districts of this Country, and asked them whether they did not know; as a tai, that such pratlices as were alluded to in the Communication, did not exist.— Under these circumstances Hts MAJISTY had or- Tiered to be made a Communication; now, undoubt. edly, the House could do no otherwise, regularly, than adopt the Motion of his Rt. Hon, Friend, be. cause its former praaice had been uniformly such as that Motio - n proposed ; it was to refer the subject. matter of the Communication to a Committee.— When the Committee made its Report, the douse would decide whether any other and what measure should follow, upon which he would say nothing, because this was not the season for saying any thing, except that he should rejoice if the re. stilt should be, that either the evil apprehend ed and hinted at, did not exist ; or that if it did exist, it was only to a degree so trifl ing, as not to require , any causionary measures on the part of the Legislature, so that nothing should be done to fetter or restrain any part of that - which in ordinary times properly made part of Pub lie Freedom. But if, on the contrary, it should ap. pear that a case was made out, shewing that the tranquillity of the Country was seriously threaten, ed, then the House would be called on in the dis. charge of its duty, to take such measures.as:might be necessary to avert the danger. Whether aey such danger did or did not exist, could appear only by Inquiry ; and the Motion for refuting these Panes to a Committee was the only way to obtain that information. Mr. PITT.—" As far as I can observe, there exists at present in this House no difference of opi nion uii thc. Motion which is now before us—ln. deed, upon the Motion itself, it is hardly possible• there should be any difference of opinion. A Com. municati t on by order-from the Throne, on a subjeQ involving the security of the Country, will not be fieglqied by this House ; and I apprehend the HOuse will adopt the course it has formerly adopted, on a similar occasion. I should not have said a word on the present occasion, had not the Hon:Gen. tlernan on the other side of the' House alluded to me i and to what I said on a forther Debate, stating partially the truth, but by suppressing some of it, as usual on'theseckeasicins, in cited completely mis. representing my sentiments. The Hon. Gentleman expresses great surprize that any statement should now be made of any disaffeled persons being aftive in this Country, because I, on a former occasion, expressed an affectionate - gratitude towards the bulk of the People of England, not only for their Con spicuoas Loyalty, but also their, unexampled pa. tience under unexampled distress, arising from . the season. Now, Sir, this is neither .more nor less than''a . pursoit of that coune in Which Par. liament have 44 to guard against the 'Operate machinations of Treasonable Correspondents, who have, frcini time to time, been more or less naive occasion seemed to them to suit or be favOur_ able to. their purposes, and to thwart 'whose wishes; 'and to frustrate whose designs; h:is been no incon.: siderable Ran' of the labour of Parliametv, nor has it been uninteresting to the People of England.— Sir, I contend, that the mass of the People of - Eng- land have. the same feeling dull we have ourselves,, and that they have the same Value for the Consti tutiOn under which we have the happiness to live. We can only take our share in 'preserving that Con stitution ; nor can we feel more than is 'felt in eom. - ., mon by them, an interest for its safety, and an ab. horrence of those artifices, which have so frequently been made use of with intention to destroy it.— I should; think.it an odd instance of loyalty or at tachment 03 the'Soyereign we serve, and a very in different or defeetive proof of the common prudence which belongs to every . enlightened Member ofCivil Society ; still more extraordinary, a proof of grati. tude to that mass of the Peciple of England for their 'unexampled merit at this Most trying occasions if I were to endeavour to shew that gratitude, by hand ing them over, disarmed, to - a•comparatively small, indeed, but certainly desperate, set of persons, seek. ing their ruin upon every occasion that occurs to them, whenever they have hope of aid either with in or without this House. I say, therefore, that instead of ingratitude to the tnas of the People or . Englan~.i, Tarn discharginii a duty owe to justice, to the Interests of my Country, and pursuin g a course whic Yt is" marked out by common Prudence, and sheaving a grateful sense of the admirable virtue of the mass of the People, every moment I ertdea... your to 'rescue them from the contagion, or other misatievous eifed, of principles , which cannot be successful for a month, without producing those hoe. rocs which have been, in this Country, hitherto fami. liar only in narration .; others . hideo?aly in practice, which have covered Ireland with blood, and a large part of Eurdpe with dtstruttion. Now, Sir, as to