The Sun. — London, England, 1853-03-19 00:00:00

doubt of the good intentions by which the noble earl had been animated in bringing forward this resolution, but it appeared to him (the Earl of Wicklow) that he HOUSE OF LORDS—(YESTERDAY.) had not given to the whole subject that consideration The Royal assent was this afternoon given by corn- which it required. mission to the Mutiny, Marine Mutiny, Consolidated The Earl of SHAFTESBURY said he should be Fund, County Election Polls, Grand Jury Cess, Indem- ethappy to accept the offer which had been made to him pity and Commons I nc l osure , and Inland Revenue Bills, b y the noble earl at the head of the Government, and he The Commis s i oners were th e L or d Chancellor, the would now, in withdrawing his resolution , merely Duk e o f A rgy ll, an d t h e M arqu i s of Breadal b ane. observe that, so far as he was concerned, he should not At five o'clock the LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat rest until, with God's blessing, he had attained his end. on the woolsack. • . (Hear, hear.) The Earl of EGLINTON presented a petition from a The motion was then withdrawn. place in Scotland, praying that the ordnance survey of THE CHURCH IN THE COLONIES. Scotland be continued. Lord CAMPBELL presented a petition from Dun- Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from the Sydney, protesting a gainst the introduction of fermline, against tests imposed on f in Scotch pro essors diocese of . any system of church government into the colonies in universities. which the bishop, clergy, and laity should not meet in The Bishop of St. DAVID'S presented a petition one council with one jurisdiction. against the admission of Jews into Parliament. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY believed that The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from the some legislation on the subject was necessary, but at the city of Devon to the same effect, same time he considered it was matter of great difficulty. The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from The Duke of NEWCASTLE declined to enter into Colchester praying for Parliamentary papers. any discussion, but explained that the colonial bishops THE SIX-MILE BRIDGE AFFRAY, had not impugned the Queen's supremacy. The Earl of DERBY rose to ask whether there would 1 After some further discussion, in which the Bishop of be any obj ec ti on t o l ay b e f ore t hi s h ouse cop i es o f a ll the EXETER and Lord MONTEAGLE differed as to the consti papers relating to the Six-mile Bridge affray, being' tutional origin of the Queen's supremacy, identical with those which had been moved for and The petition was ordered to lie on the table. granted in the other house last night. THE ADJOURNMENT. The Earl of ABERDEEN said there could be no pos- The Earl of ABERDEEN then moved the adjourn. sible objection. The ment of the house to Monday, the 4th of April. Earl of CARDIGAN complained of the course The Earl of DERBY said that, although the noble which had been taken by the Government in placing the earl had moved an adjournment of rather longer dura soldiers on their trial after the assurances which he had tion than usual, he was not abo u t to offer any objection heard from the noble earl at the head of the Government I on the part of the house to the length of that adjourn that no distinction should be made between the priests I ment, nor to the period to which the noble earl pro and the soldi ers . H e also expressed himself as greatly : posed to adjourn. If the noble earl had proposed, ac astonished at the doctrine which had been propounded cording to the usual practice, t o adjourn to a period by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that any man who three or four days later than th e time fixed upon by the stood for a populous place without a very perfect chance House of Commons, he should h ave seen no reason f or of su c c ess wa s answerable for all the excesses which objecting to that longer adj ournmen t. H e s h ou ld b e g l a d might take place at that election. The Earl of ABERDEEN deprecated the irregular to hear, and he was sure it would mee t th e conven i ence of their lordships, if the noble earl wo u ld assure them introduction of the noble earl' s remarks. The noble that it was not the intention of the Government to pro earl opposite (Derby) had moved for papers, no doubt, with the intention of founding some motion on the sub- teed with any business of importan ce d ur i ng the first e ihr e or four days after the reasse m bli ng o f the house. ject. It would have been better if the noble lord had He trusted the noble earl would inform their lordships waited until that occasion. He also deprecated any whether the object of meeting at the time mentioned allusion to the proceedings of the other housuof Parlia was not rather to carry on the legal business of the house ment. The Bishop of EXETER was glad to hear the last than to proceed with any questions of political import ance. He could not allow the house to separate with remark which had fallen from the noble earl. If such out taking the opportunity of repeating a question were his opinion, he hoped that the noble earl had which he took the liberty of putting to the noble earl at already intimated, or would immediately intimate, to a the commencement of the session, and to which he was right h on . co ll eague o f hi s i n t h e ot h er h ouse (S ir W. unsuccessful in obtaining an answer —namely, what are Moiesworth), who, some few nights ago, had done him the measures to be submitted on the part of the Govern (the Bishop of Exeter) the honour to allude in not very dur favourable terms to some r emar k s w hi c h had fallen from ment to the con s id era ti on o f y ou r lordships' house him in this hou se . (H ear , h ear .) ing the present ses s ion ? (Hear.) At that time the noble earl declined giving him any information with re- The papers were then agreed to. gard to the measures of the Government, but stated THE OVER-CROWDED STATE OF THE that shortly afterwards the noble and learned lord on METROPOLIS. the woolsack would declare the intentions of the Go. The Earl of SHAFTESBURY rose according to no- vernment with regard to great and important questions tice to move that for the future every company coming of legal reform ; and, accordingly, three or four- days for a bill before their lordships' house, and proposing to afterwards, the noble and learned lord entered very much take any houses occupied by the labouring classes for the at large into the consideration of legal reform , begin purposes of their undertaki ngs , s h ou ld b e o bliged to prove ning by observing that upon one question the noble and that by taking such houses they would not run the danger learned lord who had preceded him had done so much 3' that nothing more remained to be done ; that upon an - of over-cro w di ng ne i g hb our i ng h ouses, an d i n ca ses the should not prov e th a t suc h wou ld no t b e th e ca se, that the other question there was a commission already existing Company be obliged to provide houses of the same capa- for the purpose of making certain inquiries ; that upon a city, as near as possible to the locality of the houses third branch it was important to obtain further informa destroyed. The noble lord proceeded to describe the tion before proceeding to legislate ; and the noble and hardships which had been inflicted by the ejection of the learned lord at last arrived at the conclusion that the inhabitants occupying the houses destroyed by the for- amount of legislative progress in the matter of legal re mation of the Victoria-street, the Blackwall Railway, form would, in the course of the present session, be of the and other undertakings of a similar nature. Those slightest possible description. In point of fact, the noble masses were driven from the locality in which they had lord stated that he had taken upon himself, apart from resided, and to which they were attached by proximity legislation, a task of very - considerable importance to th e scene of their labour, to seek for work at a great and duration— a task which he confessed he had distance from the place of their employment, and were taken up in a romantic sort of enthusiasm. (A laugh.) compelled, if they did not go to a considerable distance, He could only say, he sincerely hoped the noble and which in many instances would involve almost the ruin learned lord might have life and health to carry into of families, to reside as near as possible to the spot, in effect the great object which he wished to accomplish ; dwellings already overcrowded, teeming with filth and and if he should be spared to carry out his intentions, engendering disease. His proposition would not inter- he certainly would be blessed with a longer life than fere with any existing rights, and it was only fair, when that generally allotted to man. (A laugh.) So far as a company came forward to ask for new powers, very legislation was concerned, the noble and learned lord considerable in extent, and affecting the condition of had confined himself to the reintroduction of a measure hundreds of thousands of the poor, that they should which had been introduced for the last 20 years, for the exact such conditions as would render the improvements registration of assurances, which was rejected last year, that were proposed, and which could not produce any and rejected in the previous year, by the House of Corn direct or immediate benefit to the poorer classes, as little mons, and with regard to which the noble and learned oppressive as possible to those classes. He might be lord, in the course of the present session, had introduced told that this evil prevailed only in the most crowded one important modification, which appeared to him (the and central parts of the town. It was perfectly true Earl of Derby) to be contradictory to the main principle that its worst form existed in the most densely populated of the bill—the main principle of the bill being to pro localities, and it would perhaps be better that the stand- vide for the publicity of registration, but the objects of ing order should in the first instance extend only to such the amendment being to enable parties to keep their localities. But it was said the rule ought not to apply deeds secret. The bill which bad been previously re to railways, because it would convert them into building jetted would probably again meet the same fate. The companies. Why, railway companies were at present statement 'made by his noble and learned friend the late great builders of houses, and at Rugby, Swindon, Co- Lord Chancellor had shaken his confidence in the prac ventry, and Wolverton, great masses of dwellings had ticability and desirability of the measure, and it was been constructed by them ; besides which, there were probable that it might not undeservedly meet the same th e great hotels at Paddington and Euston-square. In fate as the bill of last year, and consequently the amount fact, railway companies' had no hesitation now in be- of legal reform in the present session would be nil. coming the owners and managers of docks, packets, fac- (Hear, hear.) In the other house of Parliament the tories, foundries, hotels, dwelling-houses, and everything estimates had been passed for the naval and military that could subserve their interests, and therefore there services of the country, founded upon the amount of could be no reason why they should not be required to force laid down by the late Government, and to which Provide houses for the accommodation of those of the he was happy to find the present Government had taken Poorer classes whom their enterprises displaced. It was no exception. Beyond that, there had been introduced said that this proposition might operate as a bar to in into the House of Commons a bill for enablin arsons ternal improvement. He did not believe it would have of the Jewish persuasion to sit in Parliamen g t. p That that effect, but he was sure, however persons in cons- Portable circumstances might delight in the improvement bill had formerly b een re j ec t e d by th e H ouse o f L or d s , and he trusted their it of London a n d o th er to wn s, th a t in a l ar ge proportio n of lordships would reject again. (Hear, bear.) I n th a t respec t, aga i n , th e amoun t o f instances th ese i m pr ovemen t s, so f ar as regar d e d t h e so cial condition of the humbler classes, were no improve- le g islation would b e absolutely nil. (Hea r, hea r.) ments at all, b ut on the contrary much increased the evil Another bill had been introduced, to which he felt the under which the large mass of the people laboured, and strongest objection, b ecause h e thought it interfered that unless some check of this kind was adopted the evil most unjustly and unconstitutionally with the provision would become absolutely intolerable. The principle for for the Protestant clergy in Canada. These measures which he contended was already recognised by the other , 6 . , o na r le n t in ed en t t he whole Teir progress orsis of m t d he be l e egis t l o a l lon th o l f t, tte l house of Parliament in the standing orders with respect to inclosure bills, in which a provision . was required to be the course of the session, the lordships lord the leader of the introduced for leaving an open space in the most appro- House of Commons would inform the house what course and sub priate situation, sufficient for the exercise recreation the Government intended to pursue upon the great ject of education. The Reform Bill, to which the public of the people. He could assert of his own knowledge did look to their lord- attention had been directed, it was announced would not that the people of this countrybe brought forward in the course of•the present session; ofgrievances ; ships' house for the redress of many their he be- and with regard to the education question, the noble lord and he did trust—and he ventured to say further, had intimated that it was not his intention to bring for lieved—that their wishes in t his respect would not be wrrd any extensive or comprehensive scheme. They ,disappointed. (Hear, hear.) T he noble lord concluded had been told, and he hoped erroneously, or at least he by moving in the terms above stated. ith trusted the Government would reconsider the question— The Bishop of LONDON entirely concurred w d most they had been told that it was the intention of the What had fall e n from the noble lord, and be gs Government, Government, during the present session, permanently Cordially to second his pioposition. in to legislate on the affairs of India. That was all Lord REDESDALE trusted that their lordsh i ps, that had been announced on the part of the Govern considering this subject, would not merely look to the ~Went up to the present time. If the Government evils which had arisen from the overcrowding of the contemplated the introduction of any other mea- Population in certain cases—an evil to which no one was sures he thought the time had arrived, now that they more opposed than himself, and for which he acknow were about to adjourn for the holidays, when the houses ledged the importance of providing a remedy ; but he of Parliament ought to be informed as to the nature of hoped they wouldco nsi der the practical effect of passing the business to which their attention was likely to be this standing order. It might be right in the case of directed. (Hear, hear.) He was anxious that the old certain bills for internal improvements ; but that was a system should not be followed, under which bills were very different thing from passing a standing order, mak brought up at a late period, and often without previous Lug a provision of this kind compulsory in all oases. notice—their lordships being kept waiting for four or five The Earl of DERBY thought their lordships must months, and then being called upon to legislate on sub feel greatly indebted to the noble lord (Lord Shaftes jects of great importance at the end of a session when bury) f or b r i ng i ng b e f ore th e i r no ti ce a subject of great very few peers were present. If the Government in iniportance, to which the noble lord himself had always tended to bring forward no measures of importance, let devoted his own attention, and which, perhaps, had them say so at once. If it was their intention to bring not hitherto received from the Legislature as much at forward measures of importa nce let them be brought tention as it deserved in itself, and as it was entitled to forward without delay. Let their lorshi p s have a fair receive from the helplessness of the class whom it chiefly share of business throughout the session, and let it not concerned. He quite concurred that in the considera- be huddled t o g ether into a short period at the end of the thin of bills for the construction of railways and effecting session. (Hear , hear. ) If this su g gestion was import improvementsh i n t owns , t oo exc l us i ve at t en ti on had, ant with regard to any thin g it was p articularly so ;la Perh a p s , b een g i ven t o th e r i g ht s o f property, str i c tly so regard to the affa irs of India. The affairs of t Called, and too slight attention t o th e r i g ht s an d c laims - w ere now beginning to e xcite the greatest - of that class of persons wh o , a lth oug h th ey were not cou ntry in The noble earl had announced his intention io t n o Possessed of a property, could yet produce the same evi- serest. legislate upon a portion of the question they of the actual amount and measure of the injury permanently session. If the noble earl had deter they sustained, as those who were the owners of real during the present legislate he must have determined so to - Property. He further concurred that in the case even mined so to waiting for, and consequently without of many improvements so-called, and doubtless real im- legislate without by, the examination and report of the Provements, which had been effected for sanitary objects, being influenced _ d to consider the subject, and there the almost inevitable consequence in some instances had committee appointe the legislation on that reason why ad made been t o aggrav a t e the evils of overcrowding in particular was, therefore, no the Government h neighbourhoods. Indeed he could not see how it was Part of the subject on which tbe placed before Parliament Possible to prevent such an incidental evil from arising, up their minds should no He was anxious to aster therefore he agreed with his noble friend (Lord Re- with the least possible delay. ent intended to submit 'desdale) that the imposition of too strict a set of condi- tarn what measures the Govern!" to receive an assur ,tions would render it almost impracticable to carry into to Parliament, and he was anxious measure it might effect any improvement. He would, therefore, suggest ante from the noble earl that whatever b placed before their to hi s no bl e f r i en d (Lord Shaftesbury) admitting that be his intention to propose should _ e 'd the serious evils the house ought to take steps for inquiring into what lordships in due time, and thus avoid Would be the effect of improvements of this nature, upon of procrastination until within the la s t two or three t. (Hear.) th e comforts and convenience of the working-classes, weeks of the close of the session of Parliamen at the in whether it would not be advisable that he should recon- The Earl of ABERDEEN was surpris e d unusual Sider his proposition, with the view of ascertaining if he quirt' of the noble . earl, considering it altogether ,could not embody its principle and object in words of a tdemandsuch the noble information. He could assure less stringent and inflexible character. earl that he need be under no apprehension that their lordships would not have their business The Earl of ABERDEEN said it was quite unneces- full share of the . . wary for him or for any other member of their lordships' that was likely to occupy the attention of the Legisla aouse to do justice to the objects which the noble earl t ure, and measures would b e introduced such had that in bad in view in bringing this question before them. The time as to afford opportunities fordiscussion that full the noble earl desired. Motives of the noble earl must be universally acknow- which . It was his intention to notice before 'edged and reco 'd • but he (the Earl of Aberdeen) give ample . introducing subjects into the guise , had pointed out house, and he did not think himself called upon, after Quito agreed with the noble lord who that in his desire to obtain a great good the noble earl that promise to say more on the subject at the present (Hear, h ar ) Thenoble hadproposedthat the execution of which was clearly moment.. e .. earl had alluded to i that in attempting the subject of education. Upon that subject he was olpossible, and they must take care theymeeting accomplish an object in which all must agree, able to state that on the first day of the of the t hey did not incur those practical diffic ulties which to house a notice would be given of the introduction of the Would render vain all their efforts. He ( the Earl of measure contemplated by the Government. Th e i r l or d- Aberde e n) nee d no t t rou bl e th e ir lordships with repeat- ships would have ample time to consider that matter, ing the obj ec ti o n w hi c h h a d b een already stated to tbe and, generally speaking, whether measures were intro course proposed by the noble e arl, because it appeared duced into the House of Commons or into their lordships' „0 him t o bequite conclusive. The subject, ho wever, house, fpll time would in all cases be afforded for thei r Was well wor " q thy of the attention of their lordships, cons ideration. With respect to the observation of the and if the n o bl e ea r l th oug ht fit t o i n quire more fully noble earl relative to their lordships meeting on the saute da as the House of Commons, he might state that it into the matter by means of a committee, he (the Earl Y not intended to enter on any business beyond the Of Aberdeen) was sure that there could be no objection was to their legal proceedings, and giving notice of the days on which 1 a proposal of that kind. (Hear, hear.) But rtmin business would be proceeded with. (Hear.) lordsh i p s were clearly not in a position to pass a corn- cc ' then agreed to, and their lordships The motion was Prehensive standing order like this, professing to em= The till the 4th of April under their consideration. He would suggest to the 'liable earl to withdraw his resolution for the present, and upon further consideration to bring in some practi ea,i . measure which would have a better prospect of effect ing the desired result. (Hear, hear.) The Ea r l o f HARROWBY entirely agreed in the ?Pinion that it would be more advisable to give the sub ject greater consideration before they made any standing :abler, and he was not sure whether it would not be bet terto refer the question t o a se lect committee, to i nqu i re 4 0 the best way of effecting the object proposed by his Ruble f r i en d . pit The Earl of CARLISLE most cordially concur re d h with his noble friend (the Earl of Shaftesbury) and "h th • t _. e right rev. prelate. who had spoken with regard _,O the mag ni t u d e o f th e ev il co mplained of, and the great oes irableness of affording some effectual remedy. The Earl of WICKLOW said that there could be no MPE RIAL PAHL IAMENT. HOUSE OF COMMONS.—(YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. PRIVATE BUSINESS. The Redruth and Chasewater Railway Bill was read a third time and passed. The report upon the Salford Extension and Improve ment Bill was considered and agreed to. The following bills were read a second time :—Bays water, Paddington, and Holborn Bridge R ailwa y ; M on mouthshire Railway and Canal. PETITIONS. Mr. Alderman CHALLIS presented three petitions from working men in the metropolis against the Crystal Palace being opened on Sundays. Mr. PIGOT presented a petition from Reading against the occupation of Roman territories by French troops. The SPEAKER informed the house that he had re ceived a letter intimating that it was not intended to proceed with the petition against the return for the county of Tipperary. A considerable number of petitions were presented against opening the Crystal Palace on the Lord's-day, and against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from printers at Birmingham against all taxes on knowledge ; also, a petition from the same place in favour of the re moval of all Jewish disabilities. RAILWAY MANAGEMENT. Mr. CARDWELL brought up the report of the Select Committee on railway management. The report was ordered to lie on the table. ROYAL COMMISSION. Sir AUGUSTUS CLIFFORD, the Usher of the Black Rod, here entered, and summoned the house to attend the House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given to seve ral bills which have passed both houses. (For the list of bills see Lords' report.) The SPEAKER then left, preceded by the Sergeant -at- Arms with the Mace, and followed by, on his return, a few hon. members. ELECTION FOR MALDON. _ Lord R. GROSVENOR reported that the committee on the petition for Maldon had come to the resolution that Mr. Du Cane, and Mr. Taverner J. Miller were not duly elected for the borough at the last election, and that the last election was a void election ; also, that Mr. Du Cane and Mr. Miller were, by their agents, guilty of bribery and treating, but it had not been proved to the satisfac tion of the commitee that it had been committed with their knowledge and consent. The committee were also of opinion that corrupt practices had extensively pre vailed at elections for that borough. On the motion of the NOBLE Loan the evidence before the committee was ordered to be laid on the table. The noble lord also gave notice that, after the recess, he should move that the writ be suspended until the 21st April, and that an address be presented to the Crown to appoint a commission to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices in that borough. (Hear, hear.) COUNTY OF WESTMEATH. The SPEAKER informed the house that the parties did not intend to proceed with the petition against the return for Westmeath. INDIAN AFFAIRS. Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the house, at its ris ing, do adjourn until Monday, the 4th of April, and announced that after this motion was disposed of he should move that the order of the day have precedence of notices of motion on Thursdays. Viscount JOCELYN took the opportunity of asking the President of the Board of Control whether any and what measures have been taken according to the recom mendation of the Governor-General of India, in his lordship's minute dated the 27th day of February, 1851, to appropriate a portion of the revenues of the ter ritory withdrawn from Ali Morad, Ameer of Upper Scinde, as a penalty for forgery, to the relief. of the Ameers of Scinde and w their families, who were dispossessed of their territories i n 1843 by the orders of the British Government. The noble lord reminded the house that last session he brought the whole subject of Scinde affairs under the consideration of Parliament, and it was now only neces sary for him to state that a Commission of Inquiry had reported that Ali Morad was unjustly deprived of his rights. Now, he thought the present was an appropriate time to make the amende honorable mentioned in his question. _ Sir C. WOOD (President of the Board of Control), declined going into any discussion on this subject ; but, with regard to the question, he could only state that Mr. Frere had been instructed to make an inquiry into the whole case. In the meantime, a liberal allowance was made to the whole family of deposed Scindian sove reigns. Mr. DISRAELI had given notice of his intention to inquire whether it was the intention of the Govern ment to take steps for establishing gold as a legal tender in our Indian territories ; but as he intended to found a motion upon this subject, he should defer his question until after Easter. The motion for the adjournment of the house was then agreed to, after a few words from Mr. Hums. ORDERS OF THE DAY. Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that after• Easter orders of the day should take precedence of notices of motion. Mr. DISRAELI objected to the motion. He did not wish to throw any obstacles in the way of the ad vancement of public business, but the house ought to pause before they consented to give up any of their constitutional privileges, of which Thursday night notices formed a part. (Hear, hear.) What were the circumstances under which the motion was made ? Why the pubhc business had never been so much ad vanced at this period of the session, as it was at pre sent, while they were called upon to adjourn for an un usual length of time. Such was not, however, the state of affairs in 1847, when the noble lord proposed that, after the 19th of April, orders of the day should take precedence on every alternate Thurs day, but that motion was opposed by the present First Lord of the Admiralty, though it was true it was ulti mately carried. In 1851 this concessionwas sought only on the Ist of July, but even then, although he did not divide the house upon the motion, he took objection to it, and said it would be establishing a dangerous precedent to agree to it. The result had proved that he was right in his apprehensions. In 1841, when this motion was made, there were 45 bills on the papers, but now there were only 25, and he really did think that this proposal ought to be postponed until after Easter, or he must give it his unqualified opposition. Mr. WILLIAMS also opposed the motion, and ex pressed his belief that the Government would btain no additional time by carrying it, because advantage would then be taken to make independent motions upon going into committee of supply. Lord J. RUSSELL said the practice of the house had been to give three days to independent members, and two to the Government. Hitherto that had worked well, but of late years the Government had been pressed to take up great public questions which ought to remain in the hands of private members, and under these circumstances it was indispensably necessary that the Government should have another day placed at its disposal. For the last 20 years the Government had been compelled to give up an inquiry of bills of the greatest importance, because there had been no time to pass them through the various stages. Now, was that a state of things which ought to continue. He thought not, and that was the reason for his making the present motion. After Easter, many subjects of the utmost importance would have to be taken up; such as the Financial Scheme and the Income Tax, besides that of Education, which he intended to bring forward the very first day after Easter. (Hear, hear.) There was another question of great interest, namely, the bill for the registration of lands, which would have to be discussed, and, on the whole, he thought the house could not do better than agree to the motion. _ _ Mr. T. DUNCOMBE did not think the practice of keeping the Thursdays for independent members had worked so well as was supposed, for it very often hap pened that there was " no house," or a " count out," on a Thursday, and by adopting the motion, that evil would be got rid of. Lord R. GROSVENOR did intend to vote against the motion, but he thought an exception ought to be made in favour of hon. members who had their names in the ballot box for motions. (Hear.) Mr. WALPOLE admitted that there was still a good deal of business on hand besides that specified by the noble lord, such as the question of India, and that of secondary punishments, which ought to be brought on after Easter, and every facility ought to be given to the Government for conducting the public business. But still he thought Government ought to be content to take the alternate Thursday, and to that extent he was ready to support the motion. Lord PALMERSTON thought the speech of the right hon. gentleman opposite ought to be sufficient to induce the house to adopt the whole motion, but nevertheless he had no doubt his noble friend would be quite ready to postpone the commencement of the rule until after the 18th of April, so that the existing notices on Sir the J. paperp x. m i s i g h G t T n o o s t b s e a r d r et motjhuedi c (wHaesar premature.he ar There would be no objection to make the concession asked for when the proper time arrived ; but at present it was too much to ask for every Thursday. Mr. HUME said it would be time enough to ask for additional days when the house was in possession of the measures which the Government intended to propose, but at all events there was no necessity for passing this motion before Easter. Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to substitute the 18th of April for the 4th. Mr. DEEDES moved as an amendment that the date be " on and after the 2d of May" next ; but after a brief discussion the amendment was withdrawn, at the sug gestion of Mr. F. French. The house then divided, when there appeared — For the motion .............................. 171 Against it .................................. .. 139 . 32 Majority The motion was accordingly agreed to. HULL ELECTION. Mr. LABOUCHERE gave notice that on T ues day, the sth of April, he should move for an address to the Crown for a commission to inquire into the state of the represen tation of the borough of Hull. NORWICH ELECTION PETITION. Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice that on Tuesday, the sth of April, he should call the attention of the house to the report of the select committee on the Norwich election petition, and move that the resolution of the house on the 14th of February last, for discharging that petition, be re scinded. Mr.BANKES presented a petition from a farmers' club in Dorset praying for the repeal of the - malt tax; also, three petitions from Dorset against opening any public places of amusement on the Lord's day. Sir E. DERING presented a petition from Kent against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Mr. DUNDAS presented a petition from members of the Free Church of Scotland against the grant to May nooth. Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from the metro polis against the admission of Jews into Parliament. Sir W. CLAY presented a petition from working men in Whitechapel against the Crystal Palace being opened on Sundays. Mr. COWAN presented a petition from Glasgow against a bill for regulating the opening of public-houses in Scotland. Mr. LOWE presented a petition from the guardians of the poor at Kidderminster, in favour of the county rates being taken out of the Consolidated Fund ; also, a petition from the same place, praying for the repeal of the Militia Bill, and in favour of international arbitra tion in lieu of war. COUNTY OF TIPPERARY ELECTION. Mr. M. GASKELL gave notice that on Tuesday, the sth April, he should move for an address to the Crown for a commission to inquire into the representation of the bo rough of Clitheroe. TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE. Mr. MILNER GIBSON said that, on Thursday, the 14th April, he would bring on a motion relative to the taxes on knowledge. CAMBRIDGE ELECTION. Mr. V. SMITH gave notice that, on Thursday, the 7th April, ho should move for an address to the Crown for a commission to inquire into the state of the representation of the borough of Cambridge. MALDON ELECTION. Lord R. GROSVENOR gave notice that, on Tuesday, the sth of April, he should move for an address to the Crown to issue a commission to inquire as to corrupt prac tices alleged to exist in the borough of Leeds. ATION. Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that, on Monday, the 4th of April, he should state the intentions of the Govern• ment on the subject of education in England and Wales. THE BUDGET. • Lord J. RUSSELL also said that, on Monday, the 4th of April, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state on what day—and it would be an early day—he intended to make his financial statement to the house. THE DIPLOMATIC SERVICE. Mr. EWART gave notice that, when the estimates on the civil service were brought on, he should call the at tention of the house to • the propriety of establishing examinations of candidates for the diplomatic service. The hon. member also moved for "A return of the quan tity of foreign butter destroyed in bond in different ports of the United Kingdom in each year since the year 1844, with the dates of the several periods at which such de struction took place, and the period (in continuation o f P arliamentary paper, No. 185, of Session 1849)." Agreed to. quantity destroyed at each CRUELTY TO ANIMALS. Mr. DEEDES gave notice that shortly after Easter he should ask for leave to bring in a bill to amend the exist ing laws for preventing cruelty to animals. The hon. gentleman also moved " That P ar li amentary P aper, N o. 678, of Session 1851 (being re port of the Lords Commi ss i oners of the Admiralty in re ference to the state of Ram sga t e harbour during the years 1850-51) be reprinted." Agreed to. a Copy of Mr. J. Walker's THE INCOME TAX. Sir R. INGLIS asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the event of the continuance of the income tax, to con. sider the expediency of excluding a certain sum in all in comes, instead of exempting a certain amount of income from the operation of such tax. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQI7ER said, at a time when the income tax was about to be renewed, it was clearly the duty of the Government to take into their con sideration all the particular provisions of the last act which were deemed objectionable. He had not the slightest hesi tation in giving a pledge to his hon. friend that the point he had suggested would be carefully considered ; but his hon. friend would not understand that by so saying he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had come to any distinct de cision on the subject. SELF-ACTING RAILWAY BREAKS. Mr. MILES asked the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Inspector of Railways, appointed by Govern ment, had made any report of a mode of preventing acci dents by means , of self-acting breaks, at present on trial on the South-Western Railway ? Mr. CARDWELL said there had been no reference to any Inspector of Railways to report specially on this sub ject. THE INSURRECTION . IN LOMBARDY Mr. BLACKETT asked Lord J. Russell, whether her Majesty's Government would have any objection, in the interest of the Government and House of Austria, and that of the general peace of Europe, to use their friendly offices with the Court of Vienna, in the hope of procuring some mitigation of the severe penal measures being enforced against Austria subjects in Lombardy ? Lord J. RUSSELL—With respect to the measures to which the hon. gentleman has called my attention, I think his question has reference to three subjects. The first is with regard to capital punishments resorted to in Lom bardy, in the cases of persons believed to have been en gaged in a conspiracy. Upon that subject, I have nothing whatever to say, nor has any representation been made, or is intended to be made, by her Majesty's Government. With respect to the second question, the expulsion of cer tain persons—a great number of persons—belonging to one of the cantons in Switzerland from Lombardy, it certainly seems a very hard measure, and I know not what has been the justification of it. It has of course caused considerable excitement in Switzerland, and very great distress to those poor persons who have been the objects of it. I know not, however, that it is a subject on which her M a j es ty' s Go vernment ought to interfere in any way. With regard to the third point, it is one on which the Sardinian Govern ment has communicated with her Majesty's Government, and upon which I trust there will be some measures taken by the Austrian Government which will make their pro ceedings more consonant to the general law of justice than at present appears to be the case. (Hear, hear.) The facts so far as I know them, and as they have been stated to her Majesty's Government by the Government of Sardinia., are these. After the insurrection in Lombardy, and the war that took place in 1848, there were a number of persons belonging to Lombardy who were permitted by the Aus trian Government to have letters which freed them from their subjection to Austria—letters of denaturalisation—and they were allowed to settle in Piedmont, where they ob tained letters of naturalisation. There was a decree in 1851 with respect to another class of persons, who were stated to have left Lombardy, and whose property must have been liable to be seized ; but the Austrian Govern ment decreed that their property should not be liable to sequestration, and they were put in as favourable a con dition as those persons who were allowed to leave the coun try and be denaturalised in 1848. When the attempt was made at Milan, very lately, to overpower the Austrian gar rison there, and by means which excited a general abhor rence—to kill the soldiers who were in possession of the fortified posts—it appears the people to whom I have alluded, and who were settled at Piedmont, expressed general indignation at the attempt thus made, which merely resulted in useless bloodshed, and could not but be injurious to the quiet and tranquillity of the people of Lombardy. The Austrian Governor of Milan put forth a new decree, in which it was stated that this insurrection was the act of a very few individuals and that the population generally were averse to the conduct of those individuals ; but soon afterwards there appeared a decree, signed by Marshal Radotzky, which placed under sequestration the property of a large class of persons— namely, those who had left Lombardy with the consent of the Austrian Government, and those who came under the decree of 185 L The Sardinian Government very naturally looked on that decree as a very unjust and iniquitous one ; they said that it sequestrated the property of men who were Sardinian subjects, they considered it was contrary to the treaty between Austria and Sardinia, and they made strong representations at Vienna on the subject. They also made similar representations to her Majesty's Govern ment on the subject, and they asked her Majesty's Govern ment to support them. Her Majesty's Government have acceded to their request—(hear, hear)—and Lord Claren don has 'written to her Majesty's minister at Vienna, to express the sense which this Government cannot but en tertain with regard to conduct for which I do not know that there is any precedent, and which appears to have no justification. (Cheers.) I must say, however, that we have heard very lately that the intention of the Austrian Government is not to continue the sequestration, as was at first intended, to the cases of all those persons, but to make inquiry whether or not any, and what number of them, had any part in the insurrection at Milan. It is their in tention to take off this sequestration, except from the pro perty of those who, on information received, in some way or other assisted and supported that insurrection. Of course, if that measure be thus modified, it will bear a dif ferent character, and the Austrian Government will pro ceed in due course of law to show that their suspicions and acts with regard to individuals are justified. I can only say, therefore, that I trust that this measure, which ap pears to be an act towards Sardinia of a most unfriendly nature, and unjust towards individuals, will not be perse vered in in the shape in which it was first proposed. AUSTRALIAN MAIL SERVICE. Lord JOCELYN gave notice that on Monday, the 4th of April, he should move for copies of certain contracts and negotiations entered into by the Government with respect to the Australian mail service. CLITHEROE ELECTION. _ _ LIBERATION OF THE MADIAI. Lord JOHN Ri - ASELL concluded by saying : As the honourable gentleman has asked me this question, I wish to make a statement on another subject, which has excited considerable interest in this country, and indeed through out the whole of Christendom. It is stated that a tele graphic message has been received to-day, to the effect that the Grand Duke of Tuscany has liberated the Madiai —(loud cheers)—and that they have embarked at Leghorn and left Tuscany. INTRAMURAL INTERMENTS. Mr. WHALLEY wished to know whether and what steps had been taken on the part of the Government, to put in operation the act of last session for closing burial grounds in the metropolis ; and whether any measure was in contemplation for correcting the evils of intramural in terment' throughout the country ? Lord PALMERSTON stated that the Government felt deeply impressed with the importance of carrying into effect the act of last year, and he had given instructions under which one member of the Board of Health was in specting one after another all the graveyards in the metro polis, and in proportion as these reports had been received he had taken the necessary steps for obtaining an order in council for shutting the graveyards which were reported to be unfit for further use. (Hear, hear,) He expected that in a very short time all the graveyards in the metro polis would be closed. (Hear, hear.) With re s p ec t t o the graveyards in the country, her Majesty's Government did not possess the same powers over them as over those of the metropolis, and it would be a subject of consideration whether or not in the present session the Government would apply to Parliament for similar powers. (Hear hear.) THE KAFIR WAR. Mr. ADDERLEY asked the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies what news of the Kafir war had been received by the Sydney packet, and whether orders in council, com pleting the Cape constitution, and settling the limits and defences of the colony, had been sent out by the mail lately dispatched, and if so, how soon copies of such orders might be laid before the house ? Mr. F. PEEL stared that the packet which touched at the Cape had brought no dispatches from General Cath cart. He had stated on a former occasion that he had reason to believe that the ordinances which had passed the Legislative Council at the Cape, with respect to the con stitution and the settlement of the civil list, and which had been transmitted to this country for the assent of the Crown, would be sent to the colony in the course of the present month, and he was now enabled to state that these ordinances had been sent back on the 14th inst. With re spect to the latter part of the question, no order in council had been issued respecting the limits and defences of the colony. AUSTRALIAN MAIL PACKET SERVICE. Mr. DUNDAS wished to know whether her Majesty's lt ern ate Company,menthsin lieu of permitting other parties, who had proved their utter who car- Government proposed to take any steps to arrange a monthly mail to Australia—one that might b e depended on, regular, expeditious, and certain, such as that c o nvoye d r h i e e n d c e b the Australiany the Peninsular mails sand on Oriental alternate inca pacity to perform the contract they had undertake n , con tinuing to attempt to carry mails the delivery of w hi c h they were instrumental only in delaying. Sir J. GRAHAM said that he thought it would be rash on his part, or that of the Government, to advise the adop tion of any plan which might be depended up on t o ma k e the communication with A ust ralia regular, expeditious, and certain." The experience which he bad had at the Ad miralty had led him to believe that the communication with Australia by packet was irregular, tardy, and not per fect. (Hear.) All he could say was, that the whole question of the packet service was now under consideration, and those contracts which could be sustained would be rigidly enforced; and those which could not be maintained would be abrogated with the least possible delay. (Hear.) SIR JAMES BROOKE. Mr. DRUMMOND said, that as a most infamous slander had been propagated against Sir J. Brooke, under the title of " Specimens of Sir James Brooke's Veracity," he wished to know whether the Government would consent to lay be fore the house a copy of the last dispatch of the Secretary for Foreigh Affairs to Sir J. Brooke, with the answer of Sir J. Brooke thereto ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to say that he would consider the subject, and give the hon. member an answer in the course of the evening. THE GOVERNMENT OF KEROWLEE. In reply to a question put by Mr. OTWAY. Sir C. WOOD stated that he had been incorrectly re ported in his answer to the hon. member on Thursday, and had been made to give an answer directly the reverse of truth. What he stated was, that the question had been referred home for the decision of the home Government, and that the home Government had decided to sanction the mission to the government of Kerowlee of the young man adopted by the late rajah. TURKEY. Lord STANLEY wished to know if the Government had received any information with respect to statements made in tho public journals to the effect that the resignation of Fuad Effendi had been accepted by the Sultan, and that a dispatch had been forwarded by the British charge-d'affaires to the admiral of the fleet in the Mediterranean, requesting him to send up a portion of the fleet now in the Mediter ranean to anchor in the Archipelago. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that telegraphic informa tion had reached the Foreign-office, stating that su c h a request had been made by the British charge d'affaires at Constantinople to the admiral • but no dispatch had been received either from Colonel Rose, or the admiral com manding the fleet, corroborating that report. COLONIAL COPPER COINAGE. Mr. WILSON took the opportunity of correcting a statement which he had made the previous evening, with respect to the subject of copper coinage in the colony of South Australia. He had said that arrangements had been entered into for coining five tons ; he should have said five hundred tons of copper. CLERGY RESERVES (CANADA) DILL. The house then went into committee on this bill, and on the first clause being proposed, Sir J. PAKINGTON said that it was not his intention to offer any opposition to any of the clauses in the bill until he saw the shape which the bill would ultimately assume after the amendments to be proposed by the noble lord the member for the city of London had been disposed of. He wished, however, to call attention to a discrepancy which , appeared to him to exist between the words of the first clause of the bill and some expressions made use of by the right hon. gentleman (Sir W. Molesworth) the First Com missioner of4Works, upon the occasion of the second read ing of the bill. The right hon. gentleman gave to the house a long tale of the history of this subject in Canada, and assumed with some degree of self-complacency that there were few, if any, hon. members in the house, beside him self, who knew anything upon the subject. It was, there fore, incumbent upon the right hon. gentleman to be cor rect in the statements which he made. Towards the close of his speech he said—" It should be remembered that if this bill passes, the Canadian Legislature will only acquire the same power over Protestant endowments as it now has over Roman Catholic endowments." He (Sir J. Pakington) was under the impression that the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer used similar language. Now, he was under the impression that the right hon. gentleman (Sir W. Molesworth) was wholly in error in making that statement to which he had referred. Under the act of 1791 no act of the Legislature of Canada affecting Protestant or Roman Catholic endowments could become law until it had been sent home to the Imperial Government, and had been laid for thirty days on the table of both Houses of Parlia ment, previous to receiving the royal assent. Under the bill, as it now stood, it would be competent for the Gover nor-General of Canada to give the royal assent at once to any bill passed by the Canadian Legislature without com plying with the securities to which he had referred. He wished to know whether it was intended that these securi ties to the Protestant property should be taken away, be cause, if so, the house ought not to be told that by this bill the Roman Catholic and Protestant endowments would hereafter be placed upon the same footing. If, on the other hand, it was intended to retain that security, he thought such intention ought to be more clearly defined than it was in the first section of the bill. Lord J. RUSSELL said that he had no hesitation in stating clearly the intentions of her Majesty's Government. It was intended that any act passed by the Legislature of Canada, and duly assented to by the Crown, should not be subject those provisions contained in former acts of Par liament, by which the bills were required to remain for thirty days on the table of the house, and in the event of an address from either home of Parliament were not to become law. It was intended most decidedly that such regulations should not continue with respect to the dis posal of the clergy reserves of Canada. There was some difficulty in finding phrases which would clearly express that intention in the bill ; but if any words more clear than those which had been adopted should be suggested, he would offer no opposition to their insertion. Mr. WALPOLE said that the principle on which the Government was proceeding was, that the Canadian Legis lature should have full dominion over all the lands of the clergy reserves lying within the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. He wished to know whether it was in tended that any control whatever was to remain in the Crown ? Supposing the Canadian Legislature appropriated those reserves to any purpose mentioned in the 3d and 4th Vict. to entirely secular purposes, such as railways or canals, was it, or was it not, the intention of the Govern ment that an effective control should be reserVed in the person of the Crown, or was it to be merely a nominal control ? He was anxious to obtain a clear explanation upon this point, as he perceived by the second clause of the bill it would be in the power of the Canadian Parlia ment to deal with the proceeds of any of the land reserves sold sinco 1791, which wore now invested in this country, and were in no part of the local territory of Canada at this moment. Tho ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that considerable difficulty had presented itself in the working of the clauses of the bill. He was of opinion, however, that, looking to the provisions of the 31 Geo. 111., and also those of the 3 and 4 Viet., c. 35, the bill as at present framed would be sufficient to exclude iheoperation of the 42d section of the 31 Geo. 111. It might, however, be advisable, in bringing up the report, to introduce some words which would make the intentions of the Government more clear, if it should be considered that the bill as it now stood was not suffi ciently explicit. Sir F. THESIGER said that, whatever might be the effect of the clause as it now stood, the intention of the Government was clearly that the Canadian Legislature should have absolute power to deal with the clergy reserves and with the investments which had arisen from the pro ceeds of their sale, without any of those securities which were provided by the 42d section of the Act of Union, and. her Majesty's Government would no doubt take care to in troduce words expressive of that intention. It was im portant to ascertain what the intentions of the Govern ment really were upon the whole subject. It had been said that the effect of repealing the act of 1840 would be to bring things back to the state of things as they existed in 1791. He contended, however, that such would not be the effect of repe a li ng th e ac t of 1840. It was quite clear, upon turning to the 41st section of the act of 1791, and considering its provisions in conpection with the provisions of that act, that the lands set apart for the clergy reserves were set apart for clergy purposes. The act of 1791 was intended to provide a permanent provision for the Pro testant clergy ; but the Legislature of Canada was em powered, as the population of the country increased, to vary its provisions by leasing one-seventh of grants from the Crown lands for the clergy. But it was now proposed to take away the securities provided in that act of 1791; and the house was told they were placing the Canadian Legis ture in the same position that they were in under that act, whereas in two most important particulars the provisions of that act were positively violated. The bill was contrary to the opinions of the judges expressed in 1840, that the Canadian Legislature had no power over the allotments, inasmuch as it provided that the local Legislature should have absolute powerover the investments arising from the sale of lands, and it took from the Imperial Legislature the secu rities provided by the act of 1791. Under all the circum stances, he was sure that when honourable members came to consider the provisions of the bill in respect to these important particulars, they would find it to be an inter ference with vested interests and rights, and the most startling breath of faith ever committed or attempted to be committed by any legislature. (Hear ' hear.) Mr. ADDERLEY sa id th e honourable and learned gen tleman was totally mistaken when he said the object of the present bill was to go back to the state of things which existed in 1791. Nobody in their senses could ever have asserted such a thing. The object of the bill was to remove to the colonial legislature that power of revision which was now possessed by the Imperial Parliament during a period of 30 days. At the same time he had no very clear idea of the effect of the first section, and he thought that the repeal of the 42d clause in the act of 1840 would be the simplest mode of attaining that which he conceived to be the object of the measure. As the bill stood he believed it would keep alive that 42d clause; so that, if he were right it would, after all, be nugatory. Lord J. MANNERS said it had been made perfectly clear that the intention of the bill was to take away from the clergy reserves in Canada that protection which they had hitherto enjoyed under the 42d clause in the act of 1840. But it was said that the bill did no more with re spect to the property of the Church of England than it did in relation to the religious endowments of the Church of Rome in Canada. Now he was anxious to obtain from the legal advisers of her Majesty's Government a distinct declaration of the law upon that proposition. He thought this matter so important that he should take the liberty of reading the emphatic declaration of the honourable gentle man the Under-Secretary for the Colonies when he intro duced the bill, and the still more emphatic declaration of the right honourable baronet the Chief Commissioner of Works, in which both laid down the untenable position, that this bill would place 'the property of the Church of England in Canada upon precisely the same foot ing as the property of the Church of Rome. The honourable gentleman (Mr. Peel) said—" In the very constitutional act of 1791 this very provision was made which we now wish to adopt for these Protestant endowments. The 35th claw), after the declaration that I have referred to, says, ' Be it enacted that the said de claration shall remain and continue to be of full force and effect in each of the said two provinces of Upper Canada and Lower Canada respectively, except in so far as the said declaration, or any part thereof, shall be expressly varied or repealed by any acts which may be passed by the Legislative Council and the House of Assembly of the said provinces respectively, or which may be assented to by her Majesty, or any of her successors, under the restric tions hereafter provided. Therefore, you see that the Roman Catholic endowment of tithes and dues, which those of the Roman Catholic persuation are now bound to pay to the clergy of that Church, may at any time be abrogated by an act of the colonial legislature ; and inas much as all that we propose now to do, is to place the Pro testant endowment in Upper Canada on precisely the same footing, I cannot see why the Roman Catholic members of the local legislature should be objected to because they took part in a decision upon this subject. (Hear.) Upon these grounds, then, I beg leave to introduce this bill." Now he asked the right hon. baronet the Chief Commis sioner of Works, and any legal gentleman upon either side of the house, whether on reading the bill they could sa y that, dealing as it did upon the face of it with the clergy reserves, and the clergy reserves alone, it repealed the enactments of the 43d section in the act of 1840, so far as the property of the Roman Catholic Church was con cerned? If they could not say this from the words of that clause, what was the meaning of the declarations made by her Majesty's Government? They said it was purely a measure of religious equality, and that it sought to place Protestant endowments upon the same footing as Roman Catholic endowments. But he (Lord J. Manners) maintained, and it was as clear as the sun light, that, so far from these endowments being upon the same footing, from the moment this bill became law in its present shape the stringent clause in the original act of 1791, and re enacted in that of 1840, which related to the whole reli gious property belonging to any Church or communion in Canada, would be retained only for Roman Catholic en dowments in that country. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord read the clause at length, and again asserted that the reli gious endowments of the Church of Rome, would, after the passing of the bill, be guarded by provisions which were expressly repealed' so far as concerned the clergy reserves of Canada. Now he put it to any gentlemen who wished to carry out what he conceived to be a most melancholy and disastrous policy—that of leaving the ecclesiastical en dowments of all religious communions, without favour or regard to their religious tenets, to the unlimited control of the Canadian legislature—whether this was acting upon the principle of equality ? The right hon. baronet the Chief Commissioner of Works laid it down in such distinct term s that there could be no doubt upon the subject, that the Roman Catholic endowments were to be upon the same footing as the clergy reserves ; for he said, ' there was no statutory provision preventing the legislature of Canada from dealing with this property in any manner they might think proper." Then would the right hon. baronet tell him what force attached to the 42d section of of the act of 1840 ? Had he, by his epse dixit, repealed the legal effect of that remarkable provision ? Could he point out any statute subsequent to 1840 which abrogated or di minished the force of that provision ? If he could not, he (Lord J. Manners) would ask the right hon. baronet for an explanation of the extremely determined manner in which he vindicated the bill, whilst there was no statutory provision whatever to prevent the Canadian Legislature from dealing in any manner they thought proper with the endowments of the Roman Catholic Church ? If the right hon. baronet meant to say that the safeguard of the 42d section in the act of 1840 was no safeguard at all, then why not give the clergy reserves of Canada the same pro tection as the endowments of the Church of Rome ? At any rate, lot not the liberal members of that Church -above all, let not the Roman Catholic members of the house, be deluded into the belief that in passing this bill they were passing one which, as the right hon. baronet said, was based upon the principles of religious equality. Mr. PEEL said that, as the noble lord had pointedly re ferred to him, ho would trouble the house with on or two observations. Tie had stated when he introduced the bill that the effect of it would be to give the colonial legisla ture of Canada power to dispose of the lands and to alter the appropriations made under the act of 1840 ; and that in giving the local legislature this power they were doing no more than had already been done with regard to the Roman Catholic endowments in Lower Canada. He also quoted an extract from the constitutional act of 1791, showing that the legislature had power to alter the dues which the people were legally bound to pay to the priests of that persuasion. The noble lord, however, had not noticed this point; his argument had rather been directed to the manner in which restrictions had been exercised by the Crown upon the power of the local legislature. This point had been considered by he? Majesty's Government, and they were of opinion that restrictions should not be placed upon the Crown's exercise of its right. That right would continue to be exercised, subject to the opinion of the Secretary of State. The noble lord contended that by this bill Protestant endowments were put upon a different foot ing to those of the Roman Catholics. The answer which he (Mr. Peel) had to make to that was, that the noble lord seemed to have forgotten what had been said by his right hon. friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was incorrect to designate the se reserves as a Protestant endow ment. They were so under the act of 1791 • but under the act of 1840 the Rom an C a th o li cs were p erm itted to par ticipate in one half of the produce of the sales under that act. But even admitting the view of the noble lord, that the clergy reserves were substantially a Protestant endow ment, he could not see that the reservation of the thirty days' proviso would be any real advantage to the Church of England or to any other religious body interested in the fund, because it would give an appearance of support which would be perfectly delusive. At the same time, if it were thought that the Church o f R ome rea lly enjoyed an advan tage from both houses of Parliament being able to exercise a veto, and any hon. gentleman would bring forward a bill for the express purpose of repealing the 42d clause, as it was supposed to effect them, there would be no disposition on the part of her Majesty's Government to offer opposi tion to such a measure. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NAPIER contended that the language held by dif ferent members of the Government upon this question was not uniform, and that in consequence no two men out of doors could understand the exact point in discussion. On the 23d of March, 1840, Lord John Russell stated, in answer to a question for Sir Robert Peel, that there would be reserved to the two houses of Parliament the power given by the act of 1791, and for the Crown to refuse its assent. The right hon. gentleman the member for the University of Cambridge said it was only on that ground he could give his consent to the bill. When the bill of 1840 was introduced, it was not anticipated that the reserves would be disposed of by the local legislature. But it was important to get the question speedily settled ; the impe rial legislature therefore interposed its power, and made what was considered a final arrangement and compromise. Suppose that imperial arrangement should be broken up, and the power given to the colonial legislature, then the important point for the committee to find out was, the terms upon which the power was transferred to the local legislature. Now, what was proposed by the noble lord was totally different from the terms used by the honour able gentleman who introduced the bill, and from those of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in supporting it, while it was totally different from what the noble lord said himself when he proposed the act for the union of the two pro vinces. The hon. gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies urged the house to accept the bill, on the ground of religious equality. The right hon. baronet who spoke on the second reading, and the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer supported it upon the same principle. These members of the Government said the bill was founded on religious equality; but religious equality was not carried out in its provisions. The fact was pointed out, and the Government turned round upon the opposition and said, " We admit it is not religious equality ; but will you bring in another bill applicable to the endowments of the Roman Catholic Church." The Government having committed spoliation on the Church of England, advised them to com mit spoliation on the Church of Rome, so as to place the pro perty of both Churches on the same footing. It was not a question of the Church of Rome, but a question affecting the rights guaranteed by the Imperial Act of 1791, and he would never be a party to appropriating that which had been sanctioned by Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It was neither fair nor reasonable that the second reading should be obtained on one assumption, and the bill•passed through committee on another assumption. He wished the matter to be clearly understood between the Government and that side of the house, that the country might understand it. He did not expect the question to be got rid of by the con venient argument that it must be left to colonial self-legis lation. There might be other rights superior to colonial self-legislation, the rights of the Churches in Canada. (Hear, hear.) The act of 1791 was prospective. This act was retrospective. The act of 1791 reserved imperial con trol. This act substituted the mere will and pleasure of the Secretary of State. The act of 1791 was the funda mental act, and by the act of 1840 that control was ex pressly reserved. Upon all these grounds, therefore, he called on the Government for explanation, that on the third reading the question might be plainly and clearly brought before the house and the country. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL thought there could not be much doubt about the principle of this bill. The hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down, and gentlemen on the other side, had said a great deal about the Roman Catholic endowments and establishments. That was very much beside the question now before the committee ; and al though the right honourable gentleman averred that he would not be put off by that answer, the question really was, the self-government of the province of Canada. (Hear, hear.) The question with regard to Roman Catholic endowments was chiefly a question arising before the act of 1791, because the rights of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada were acquired before that act; and if such a bill had been introduced as that to which his honourable friend had alluded, the question would rest upon a dif ferent state of things altogether. (Hear, hear.) The Protestant clergy reserves were first made by the act of 1791. They were created by act of Parliament at that time, and the question was whether they would reserve or not the power given by the act of 1791 to either house of Parliament to prevent the consent of the Crown being given to a colonial act. It was no doubt a question of some importance, but it was not a question of chief importance, with regard to this subject. Even in that respect, however, it was evidently the inten tion of the act of 1791 that the colonial legislature should have in the first place the power to legislate—that they should be enabled by the 41st to legislate under certain re strictions imposed by the 42d section. But the question of much more importance was really whether they were to allow the colonial legislature to legislate on that subject. (Hear, hear.) These clergy reserves were accompanied with provisions which certainly had not operated in a man ner to induce any wish to maintain the act of 1791. They all knew that the clergy reserves had been a source of great evil to the province. The lands reserved had been barren of wheat, barren of barley, and barren of oats, but fruit ful of discontent, fruitful of strife, and fruitful of ill-luck —(hear, hear)—a source of despondency to the cultivator, often preventing roads being made, but a subject of hope to every agitator in the colony. (Cheers.) Therefore, there twits nothing in the practical of that act, by which they were created, to induce him to wish to maintain it. (Hear.) But then there was certainly in that act of 1791 a provision, to which he had alluded, that if any act were made for the purpose of dealing with the reserves in the colony, for thirty days it should be' laid before the two houses of Parliament, and they should have the power to prevent its taking effect. What he said was, that that provision was inconsistent with the principle which the Government had adopted, namely, that the colonies should have the power to legislate for themselves. (Hear,- hear.) And if the house meant to adopt that principle in its fair and full extent, they must omit that provision of the act of 1791, as they did remit the control now possessed by the Imperial Parliament. (Hear, hear.) It had been urged by the right honourable gentleman, that his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had drgued this bill as if it proceeded upon the principle of the act of 1791. (Hear.) His right honourable friend only meant, that inasmuch as the principle of the act of 1791 allowed legislation by the provisional Parliament, and did not intend it with regard to that provision, that either house of Parliament might have the power of control. It was, therefore, he thought, abundantly clear what were the intentions of the Government on this sub ject. (Hear.) With respect to the particular framing of the, clause, it might be advisable, perhaps, to put some words with regard to the 37th and 38th sec ti ons of the Union Act of 1840, to make the provision m ore c l ear than it was at present. The principle which he understood wa s approved by the house when the se con d rea di ng of this bill was carried by so large a majority was, that the people of Canada, as represented by th e C rown and the two housesof legislature, should hav e f u ll power, reserving the lif e legislate on this subj ec t. (H ear, hear.) interests of the pres en t h o ld ers of the clergy res erves, to the Government me an t. Th at was the principle to w hi c h hat w as what they would adhere. He b e li eved it to be a sound prin principle they intended to ciple, and upon that (Cheers.)proceed. Mr. HENLEY said the Government had rested their support of this bill on the gliotund that it would place all parties on the same footinr, whether that principle was Carried out or not. He concurred was for the house to see with his right hon. fri this bill would deal end (Air. Napier) in believing that way and with Roman with Protestant foundations in one only answer wa s If Catholic foundations in another. The clergy, b r i ng ii : You mean to rob the Roman Catholic a bill immediately." friend had said nothing His right lion. commit an act of spoliation should induce him to e Go vernment were body, and that Considering the on the Roman Catholics because about to sound principle. on the Protestant amount of ability concerned was a veryperlietrate one (Hear, hear.) in con- this this vast measure, it was not a little extraordinary that three short clauses should be so obscurelfdrawn that the learned Attorney-General thought it might be necessary to introduce some provisions, though he did not tell them what those provisions were. The Government argued the measure on two grounds—that the Legislature of Canada would have power to deal with the clergy reserves, and that the bill would place all the different religious bodies on a footing of equality. If there was no inten tion of mystifying the house,. the Government might have given the colonial legislature full power to deal with such a subject, in a plain, clear, and unequivocal manner ; but they did not see fit to do so. But granting that it did give the Canadian Legislature that power, he de nied that it secured religious equality, and he believed many votes were given upon that ground which would be withheld on the third reading. (Hear, hear.) The argu ment which had been used by the right hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer that, having dealt with these en ddiodwsmeeemntstobyhimthe al ac m t os of t l on B4o a , oeo it un was tah p l ro e. iser Th ap e di ae v t ert of th l e mo m, was quoted over and over again to show that they had varied the appropriation of these reserves, as if, having varied the appropriation, they could not be found fault ,with for altogether diverting them. He could not under stand that argument in 1835 and 1836 when it was applied to secularising Church property in this country. He pro tested against it then, and he should protest against it now. Mr. FIUME was sorry' to see so much opposition to a bill of so much importance. The noble lord had repeated his explanation of the intention of the bill, and no doubt could remain on the subject. It was to remove discontent, and to bring matters back to the period of 1791. (Hear, hear.) The people of Canada told the Government, end so did the legislative assembly, that if the objectionable clause in the bill of 1340 was removed, it would give general satisfac tion. (Hear, hear.) The people of Canada were better judges of what would satisfy them than hon. gentlemen opposite. They said, if this were done, the Roman Catho lic endowments w ou ld b e placed on an equal footing. (Hear.) It was so intended by the act, and if it did not do so, something ought to be p u t i n t o it to make the ques tion clear. This bill, if passed, would give peace to Canada. He wished to give peace to Canada —to attach Canada to England—and this bill would do that. It was justice, as well as policy, to remove the known cause of dissatisfac tion ; and this measure would effect that purpose. Me was obliged to the noble lord, who he believed had taken• the right means to redress the evils of former bad legislation, and he believed the bill would be as valuable to Canada as to this country. With regard to the Catholics, the bill left them in possession of all their rights. At present, land, if in the hands of Protestants, paid no tithe, but if in the hands of Catholics it was made liable to tithes. This bill would interfere with no vested rights, but would do much good, and he would support it. Mr. LUCAS said n o I r i s h represen t at i ve need be under fear that this bill would interfere with Catholic endow ments. He had been much affected by the touching and earnest manner in which the right hon. gentlemen on the Opposition benches had expressed their apprehensions that Roman Catholic endowments would not only be affected in Canada, but in Ireland, if this bill passed. The right hon. and learned gentleman had declared that no conside ration would induce him to touch Roman Catholic endow ments, oven though a robbery was perpetrated on Pro testant endowments. The right hon. gentleman had not always held the same opinions, for on the Maynooth ques tion he had voted for the repeal of that endowment. For his own part he would be sorry to trust Catholic endow ments to acts of Parliament ; he relied on a far better se curity—the sense of right and justice of the people of the country. (Hear.) He did not desire to see Catholic inte rests in Canada protected by the 42d clause of the bill. He wished to see that clause repealed, and to see the Catholic endowments to rest on the sense of justice of the whole Canadian community. Mr. NAPIER hoped the committee would pardon him if he• made one or two observations in answer to the very unexpected and bold attack made on him by the hon. member who had just sat down. (Hear.) The hon. mem ber had told them that he had neither the courage, the conscience, nor the prudence to vote against the motion for going into committee on the Maynooth grant. He certainly had not the courage to vote against his conscience, and, entertaining the opinions which he did, he had thought it more honest and upright to go into the lobby in favour of the motion, than to vote against it, or to absent himself, and so to evade the responsibility of a vote, and to create a doubt as to the opinions he held on the.question. (Hear, hear.) He honestly entertained the opinions which he pro fessed on the question, and he should always act manfully and boldly in avowing his opinions ; endeavouring, as much as possible, in so doing to give offence to no man. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member had alluded to what he called the Catholic—but what he (Mr. Napier) called the Roman Catholic endowments in Canada, and had charged him with inconsistency in voting against the Maynooth grant, and in using the argument which he had done with reference to the Roman Catholic endowments in Canada. The house would recollect that he had stated that a wide distinction existed between these endowments and the Maynooth grant, and the distinction was generally assented to by the house. In stating his opinions he believed he had said nothing offensive to any man, and as he was guilty of no inconsistency, either in his conduct or in his argu ment, he would not submit in silence to be bullied and baited in the way he had been by the honourable member. (Cheers.) Mr. J. 3 fACGREGOR said he thought ,he had some knowledge of Canada, and he had no hesitation in saying that the rejection of this bill would create great discontent in that colony, and might be productive of fearful results. When the act of 1791 was passed, it was supposed that the population of the upper province would be Protestant. He wished to see the colony governed in the spirit of the act passed by the noble lord the member for the city of Lon don when he was Secretary for the Colonies in 1840. Mr. C. BRUCE said that he did not deny the advan tages which had accrued to Canada from the concession of self-government, Much had been • said about the liberal way in which provision was made for religion in the United States ; but whatever might be the case in the old states, he had good authority for saying that in the new states in the west the want of sufficient means for religious pur poses was notorious, and that in no instance had a clergy man, however popular, been able to secure a maintenance for two years consecutively. He had no objection to give to the Legislature of Ca na d a th e power to deal with the unappropriated reserves ; but he desired to respect those which had been appropriated, and the rights which had been created in connection with them. He admitted the kenefits which had arisen from granting self-government to the colony. Ho admitted that Canada, instead of being in a state of discontent bordering on rebellion, was now one of the most loyal portions of her Majesty's dominions —that it enjoyed an extraordinary amount of prosperity, and that its population was rapidly increasing. He should, therefore, with considerable reluctance, vote against the passing of this bill ; but he must do so unless he found that existing interests were protected, and appopriated pro perty was secured. (Hear, hear.) Mr. PHILLIMORE complicated the right hon. and learned member for the University of Dnblin on his ability and that suavity of temper which made him the delight and ornament of the house, and hoped that the right hon. and learned gentleman would explain to him the distinc tion which he had taken between voting against a parlia mentary grant to Maynooth and voting in the way he had referred to with reference to Roman Catholic endowments in Canada. Mr. NEWDEGATE said he could very well understand the difference. The discussion on the motion of his hon. friend the member for North Warwickshire did not relate to the property possessed by Maynooth, but to the yearly grant from the Consolidated Fund. With respect to the present bill, he wished the Government would tell him whether it would affect the property of the Roman Catholic Church in Canada in the same manner as it would affect the property of the Protestant Churches in that colony ? He did not advocate a system of retaliation, but that all sects of religionists should be treated alike. He wished, therefore, to ask whether the bill would equally affect the property, dues, and titles held by the Roman Catholic Church in the lower province and that property known as the clergy reserves ? Mr. B . CITLLY said that as far as he understood the question, he could inform the hon. member that the pro perty of the Roman Catholic Church in the lower and in the upper province was liable to be dealt with by the pro vincial legislature. So late as 1839 a most important question was raised with respect to the Roman Catholic endowment of St. Sulpice, in Montreal, and a bill actually passed the provincial legislature affecting that endowment, which was one that amounted to about 40,0001. a year. The bill before them proposed to give the colonial legisla ture the power of dealing with the clergy reserves in the same way as they had the power of dealing with the Roman Catholic endowments. Without any further debate of the principle he should support the measure, and reserve any further observations he had to make till the third reading. Sir R. INGLIS said that when he rose half an hour ago, at the same time as his right hon. friend the member for the University of Dublin, it was not with any presump tuous intention of defending him from the attack which had been made upon him, for he knew what while no man so rarely attacked others, so no man was more capable of defending himself when attacked that his right hon. and learned friend. (Hear, hear.) He had risen for the pur pose of calling the attention of the house to that part of the subject which related to the distinction which he con tended, existed between the condition in which the Church of Rome in Canada would be left by this bill, and the condition in which it would place the Protestant churches in that colony. The hon. member for Meath had told them that the legislature of Canada would be at liberty to deal to-morrow, if it liked, with the property of the Church of Rome, whether the bill passed or not. The distinction, he contended, was this, that whereas by the existing state of the law—of two parties each possessed of 1.000 acres—the legislature of Canada could deal with one, subject to the control not merely of the representative of the Crown and legislature, but subject also to the control of the Crown, exercised on an address by either house of Parliament in this count r y, w hi le the restrictions to the alteration of the Church property ofto be eroitlstants were re moved, and while that Church was the opera tion of the bill to the tender mercies of the C t a b n y adian legis lature, the Roman Catholic Church to enjoy all its grants under those securitiesThw e hic h h had a been provided for the Protestant Churches. forgot to allude to that distinctiLll., 3 memberet) e for l Meath rested upon it. The hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies opponents of measure, had told the o that if any of them with great gravity, purpose of dealing with theintroduce a measure for the Rome in the colon irk th property of the Church of . leagues proposed toy'deal e same way as he and his col of England, such a with the property of the Ch with the opposition of the measure would not meet ,. mired the gra ". e Government. (Hear, hear.) He ad ) - But the objectors'M of that hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear. to this measure had always contend against the in' to of l involved in it. As the hon. and learned justice memberthe principle e University of Dublin had said, you wouldc for th injustice by creating another not cure one uld not make a right. —(hear, hear.)—and two wrongs co (Hear, hear.) Spoliation of the Roman Catholics was no ) (Hear. justification fo r a s p o liation of the Protestants. l , The qu es ti on was not one o f c reed, but of pro perty ( Parliament hear)— an d w h et h er a ce rtain act or acts of to certain had n o t g i ven a cer t a in amount of property in dividuals. Did h" times gentlemens had not the mean to contend that England in right to deal with the f or mere e when that property came the King of Fra nc property of 9 o f the Kings of England. (II ear,hear.) into the possession He had not hear d any hon. member, learned or unlearned, d against the original right of the Crown get up and c ontend 12 hear)—and he trusted he should to make the gran ( ument urged that the rights of property, never hear the arg ed to drab, or blue, or to black, should whether they belong t(Hear, hear.) It was the mercy of a tyran t ma jo rity. I be at . ty that a specific contract was entered this proper to protect country and the • 'al into between this o i f Canada. The doctrine, however, now set up of self government, nt meant, in fact, separation. Such se p ara ti on ' might not take place in 1853 or 1854, but self-governm en t meant nothing less than severance from the mother country. From the moment of such severance there would be an end of allegiance. It was because he believed our colonies formed part of the strength of the mother country, that he did not wish to see them independent of her. If the Cana dian Legislature were competent to deal with this property, would which it they not be comp e t en t t o d ea l with the principle S* was granted ? If they were enabled to change the TITE.,.SITN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 19, Tess.