The Sun. — London, England, 1801-11-17 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAM fivT. iIr,US.E OF PEERS, MONDAY, NOV. 'l6. COUNSEL were heard at considerable length rela tive to the S.catch Appeal,. • Pa.tr,Lifs v: BLAIR-- the GENERAL . for the Appellant, and ,Mr.--ADAm on - tietisll. — Of naent—when &tit. Lordihips were pleds - 'to reverse the judg_ ,rent of the'Scoteh,Court.. •:.. . • Some. routine arid private :business was shortly disposed of, when an adjournment till fgur &clock . • t g; LlTl O rrow place ' , • HOUSE OF COMMONS; MONDAY/ NOV: 16. THE Bakers! Bill was brought up and read a first and second time, and ordered be coma itte4 to- `morrow. The Malt Bill and ,the Pension duty Bill went through Committees, atid ,the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. PANSITTART moved that,-the last Lot.. tery Aa should be read ; his objeet was, he said, to corteet an inconsistency .which, appeared on the face of the Act, .because in one part it purported to set forth 'all the'Prizes, and in another part, it ap. peared that there were other- Prizes for TiCkers drawn on particular days ; tie therefore moved-for leave to bring in a t ill to really the said 10. — Leave was granted. • Mr. VANSITTART- moved, that an humble Ad dress be presented to His Majesty, praying that he would be pleased to give orders that there be laid before the House an account of ati the sums of money issued in Consequence of Addresses of that Bouse, and not, made good by Parliament. • The Motion was agreed to, and the Address was ordered to be presented to His Majesty . by sLch Members as were of. the Privy Council. The Committee of Supply was, deferred to Wed nesday next, on the Motion of the CwixxcELLoit. Of the ExcaEQueß. He then moved the Order of. the. Day for the House to resolve itself into p Com mittee of Ways and Means f o r r a isi n g, a Supply. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House accordingly, Mr. AQDINQTON said, the House raving de. terinitied, for reasons that appeare4. to him most wise, •to continue, -during a period of three inonths, the Naval and, Military Establishment of the last year, or rather to provide the sum by which the Naval and - Milit,iry Establishment might be .de. frayed for that period, it becattle therefore necks. nary to provide Ways and Means ior raising Sup. plies to carry into etfat the intention of the Hou3e. The Supplies already :Voted, were, For the Army -4, and, upwardS For the. Navy - - 3,0z,000 Prdrianct: - Mi3cetlameous Scrvices 2GC,OOJ. • .••• In . ad4ition te the English, there • 6,494 ; 00e. wa's . fer.th::...Ariny of irciao • „.-Api- c , Making upwards of Seven Millions,- The. Ways and Means which -"had been already voted by the-HOuse, towards raisin; these Supplies, was the Land and Malt, ',,which was 2,750,0001. It was for lay.iog the foundation for the further Supply to meet the whole of -the demand already voted by the douse, that he was to lay before the Committee a propoSittim, the.general nature of Which he had already stated, but he thought he ought to remind the 'Committee of two circumstances ; . which ap peared neeessarilk . and . coo voidably • to have dirni. rushed, the Supplies of- the year, or, • to speak more correttly; to 'have enhanced • the - expences; and I T _, irravatcd the , weight of the burtheris.of the preceding year. 'One arising frgaitheScarcity.of the season, and the amount ... of _winch was -consider a ble, f or i t had been rhought . expedient in give ample encourage tnent tri the Itnportation of Corn into this COuntry. i\To credit had last year been given for.this.lmpor tation, tfor the Bounties on it, the amount of which would be . considerable, but not such as some persons might, perhaps, imagine. He thought that would not be found to exceed the sum of Seven Hundred Thou_ san. d Pctinds:-A large Sum; undoubtedly, and less, he kelieed; than might have been imagined.. Another vet* considerable article ,of Expenditure was here p 3 be mentioned, end for which the House had been in the-habit:of making large provision, but the de mands on which- had been greater on this than on any fOrtuer year : he meant the Navy ; and 'this arose from the circumstances of the times,-for not only all the articles of War, of the wear and tear_ of a Navy; Lut ii;:ciependently-ofall urine prepa-:. rations, the expellees must be considerably greater ea» at any former period; but when it was recol lefted how that marine had be'en made use of—how that service had 'been performed, he - thought the. Committee would make up its mind to voting' largely, for that: head of Expenditure, provided it should appear (as he, misted it would) that the. aug mentation had - in no 'instance arisen from want of vigilance or inattention. - What he had to propose to-day, sVas not for the purpose of supplying im; mediate Ways and Means, but to remove an diment in obttining . Wa.ys,and Means, in the way .Vviiich.appeared to flint the. most desirable. There lie stated on Friday last, three modes of supplying 'the, wants of Government :----Either to issue frei;li, Exchequer ,Bills funding those already outstanding- 7 or that Of "a Loan; on which pOints.he had to submit, shortly, sorne.obserVations. 'to klie,Corrn . nittee. , the objeetion - to the latter sap-, - p . eared''to Hint 'to he this :'two Loaris 'wi`thin the . . .jr-ear had . always been held to operate -ve,ry :juriously on the - Public' Funds. The - payment of the instalments o l vrateet: uniaVourably. be said; we•Con.ld not now anticipate what will be the amount . of our - E:Kpences . ; this he said, , because, . the Detin„itiVe Treaty may enable us • to, diminish our Ex.penCei, by lessening :11e&rnands of the Public - Service, This 'plan - -whic:h he. had .to ptOpose,, Would eriakie . :9l:,rd limit' our issties'of EX.ebequei ' Bills aceordinvii the deMands of the PUblic Service; • whereas by •anoiher . mode,.thatOrissning ExcheqUer . • BilliboW;the whsle sum voted must be raised, and it might afterwards turn put that much more was, raised ' then w 8 necessary, by winch he sh'otild have c~ir. ed an unavailing expence. Beside, whenever a Loan was effeaed, caused more Sock to be sold than was necessary: - ; - Thes e considqations, he hoped ; wouldjustify the preference he had given to the mode which he' was-now alziouf to , submit to the Committee; the 'obje6t of which chiefly was, to take Out of the Market a large proportion of Ex- , chequer Bills to answer the demands at a l ess rate_ of interest. The Bills were, not to be chargeable on a particular branch of the Revenue. The amount of the Bills which he proposed to he funded was . 8,500,6001. Of which 2,3g0,0001. and odd were held by the Bank; and 6,000,0001. were in the frand,s of individuals, It had been proposed to Make an arrangement conformably to the wishes of individuals by whom the larger sums are held, for the Bank could wait until they could demand pay mem-, or take stock on the terms and' conditions held out to others. The Bank; according to a system which they had followed for a number of years, re quired that they should be paid, not in Stock, but in specie. We were therefore to fund 6,000,0061. A Committee appointed by the Holders of Exchequer , Bills he had occasion to meet. The proposition was this, 'that they should agree on behalf of them selves, and those whom they represented, to fund 6,z00,0c0i., and that each person who accepted Stock should advance 501. towards constituting a fund to satisfy the Bank. However, that was not agreed on. On Wednesday last he had a second communication, and then the terns agreed on were these, He should, however, premise, that it is not considered as an indispensable obligation that they should advance Sol., but that they should be at liberty to do it ; and - the terini on which it was made, should be similar to those-of the Exchequer Bills of individuals. The terms which he had en tered into, subial to -the approbation of the Com naitiee, were these : ,C.zs of Consols - a 683- k. L 7 I tol z$ Reduced -a 67 t 6 ti - 1:!,$ Noy Fives - a 99,, 2.4 1$ 0 scr Four per Cents , a 84* 42 7 (1' .Is. oti. L. Ann. a IA z 14 '4' . . z". 102 15 7 ara the ,Proprietor; to have the opportunity of subscribing jot additional for every Tool. glll, to bc applied for redeeming the sum of about 2,400,0001. Bills held by the Bank of 1.44- land. . It would be recolleeted by all those who had had an opportunity of observing the state of Stock, and the price of Exchequer Bills f . that some time previous to arrangements being made as to Exchequer Bills, and persons knowing of Plans being in agitation, that they bore a considerable premium. He was now referring to a period before this—twelve shit.. hugs,- he .thOught, was the premium (he took it at the lowest), and they,- were taken readily at that premium,: 'but he contended that that Premium ought to be deduaed out of the amount of the bonus, - and therefore the'Bargainmusrhe considered, as far 'as that Premium went, as advantageous to the .Pub. _lie, and he.was entitled to take Credit for that, be it more or less. This led him to another consider : ation, a little, perhaps, out of place, which was, that the alteration in the. price of Exchequer Bills -since- tile. Contraa was made, furnished another proof of the benefit, of the Contraa - : and here be .observed, that it was the wish of Government, and .he believed. it was the wish of Parliament, not only. in its lipetality;but,,in its ~wisdom, to See that those Bargains were .beneficial to the Individuals, 'while they were prudent on. the part of the Public. He hoped th 6, would appear - to the Committee _ prudent, on the part 'of the Public at least.lie was fully aware that 'there was in the minds of .many well-informed men, a prejudice in favour of investing in the 3 per Cents, and that funding Ex chequer or Navy Bills should be in that Stock ; but he wished Gentlemen. to .eonsider very- fully the whole extent, of their opinion on that subjeJ, and. the probable efFedt of carrying it into execution.-- He was aware that funding in the 3 per Cerits was plausible, for . that the amount of interest was less, and he was ready to admit, he could have engaged,, on the part of the Public, at a lower' rate. of interest, by funding in that Stock. He had reason to believe ao arrangement: could have been Made by which a 'difference of 6s. 9.d. could have been made in the interest.to be paid in the• Bills funded. The funding he proposed, was in' the Whole amount of interest on the different sums. 4.1. 16s. gd. • 1. s. d: £. z; Consols a 17 x 10,! ! L. 0 15 25 Reductld a Ito 16 10,', 015 0 so Fours a 42 7 6 2 o 0 25 New Fives a . 24 is 0 I 5 o Is. 9:1. Long Allll. I 14 4 o I 9 ,t.toz IS 7 4 16 9 He said he had reason to know that he could have effeded a bargain at 41. los. that consequently " 6s. 9d. was . the excess of the interest to be paid in consequence of the bargain,,which, on the part of the Public, he had concluded, .comparing it with that which might have been concluded in the 3 pet Cents. But now he had .to state the considera tion which.operated upon•his mind in the choice he Made. First, he considered, and the Committee _would be aware, there is no Stock so marketable as the 3 per cents,- and whenever a lar,ge - Loan was to be negotiated for, there was no Stock so. imme .diately depressed as that of the 3 per Cents; for much of. it always was and would be in the hands •or individuals who were more considerable in the Stock market than others, and they would have compelled him to have negotiated it at a consi^ derable diSadvantage. BY funding in. the Stock Where the Capital already - vested was the less, the whole amount would be r 0,625,0001. whereas if invested in the .3 per Cents, where the Capital already invested.. was larger, it Would amount to; 12,750,090 h. of the whole of Capital Stock • created, making a difference of- Stock of above -2, zoo,oool. By funding, according -to the present plan, the interest, together with the Sinking Fund, amounted` to. 61. is. • 94d. and in the other with the Sinking - Fund 4:would ,be 61. making a Terence of - rs. 91d. Opposite to this sum of rs: 91a.. he had. to . -state the inconvenience which, would have arisen. in the arrangerfichts.of a fucure Loan, and that of creasing upwards of 2,000,0001. - more of Stock.---if Gentlemen considered those things and compared` them, lie was persuaded they would See chat he had reason for the - ,preference he had given -to the: Stock in which he had made the bargain now before the Committee=-Ht: was `w - ling to say much upon this.subjett. preference to a particular Stock, but he could satisfy the Coin ' Mittee that he-was-aanated by reasolls which were not lightly taken Alp. The 4. per:Centsg'appeared to him the . .-Stock best•adapted for the largest for tiOtif of funding, for several reasons, .lant., chiefly .because it was the least marketable.—The five per Cents. created in 5797, had this advantage, that they could be paid off at par, or, as bylVa - of tar, liament, at the.option.of the.holder, , by the three per Cents. at 751. with .the addition of a .third. This always created: . an unwillingness On the part of certain individnals'to enter into large negotiations in this Stock ; and all ,these itansar,.. tions must, in a great measures 'depend big the dispo sition of the 'Bill-holders.Takins all eircnniStap, ces into consideration, and weighing the subject as ~.attentively as he was able, he came to a conclusiOn, on the general died of which he had, stated, what occurrgd to him, particularly as to What - the effea would have been if this sum had been funded in the, 3 per Cents, He was unwilling to trouble the' Committee, by going through again all the calcu.' lations, and the statement of the Propositions : he could only say, lie was_ perfealy ready to give an, swers to any questions that might be put to him, his main objel being to explain it satisfaaorily, and his wish being that of sheaving clearly, that it was a eontraa that was perfealy fait between the parties. The resources of this Country did - not require any contraa that was otherwise ; nor. did heithink that true policy would diaate any contra& between Qovernment and individuals; that was not berm ' ficial to such individuals. All that was necessary on the .part of the Public was, that the contraa should be prudent. The only question then was this, \ , Vhther under all, the .circurnstances, he had, -or had not, made a fit, suitable and fair bargain for the Public ? if he had done so, the Committee would confirm it ; if the Committee did not, it would be subje& matter of great reproach to him, which he . hoped would not fall to his lot. .He had already felt the satisfaaion•of its being approved by those whose judgments were allowed to have qualified them to form opinions upon it, who had been pleased to say, they thought it was, on the part of the Public, not an improvident bargftir). Hi should, therefore, conclude with a motion which he should read through, it being -long, • and being in the form that was usual in these cases. He then moved the resolution to confirm the terms of the bargain, &c. • ' Mr. DENT said, it was not-his intent-ion to...op pose the Motion of the Right }lon. Pentleman, but there were two or three points upon which lie dini.- ed from the CHANCE LLOR of the FACH E Q UE R., and on which he wished to say a few Words. Itr the first place, he disapproved of the , Stock in Which these Bills were to be funded. It would have 'been better, in his opinion, if it had been done in the Three per Cents. because it would have. nrde a saving of no less than TB,OOOl. a year in,the Inte test. He; wished also that, the plan of the late CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, ,(of, :whom he always -entertained the highest opinion)* had been adopted upon this occasion,' vii. tiiat of a competi . tion, because Ifargains.• made upon a Competition were always most favourable to f the Country. Ano. ther observation that 'was necessary to" make ,was, that all the Bill holders did not stand upon equal terms ; because some had taken then; •ar a discount, and otheri at a premitnia.-- . --It was also to be recoh.. Idted, that it still .was optional with the Bill.holders whether they .would adhere to their bargains or not, and. if the 147.uns should fill before the business Was finally arranged (which he hoped and believed they would not), then. it Was possible, that the Bill holders, would nor. complete their Bargain upon the same ten*, and then',i4C:CHANC E 1.1.0 tt of the Ex. Esitri: P. W061:1; at.aVery . inconvenient period- of the Session, be, forced, to have recourse to a Loan. .He was, at.a.loss to. conceive. why it was that the Bank should have been favoured upon this occasion, and why their Bills . wete to. he paid,, and the others, to be funded? It has been said, that the Bank could not bold Stock but this was not- correa,• because ) though it was . not very common, yet there were instances- ittEst-hichthey had held Stock.—As to the idea that an additional. Stock of z,000,0001. in the Three per Cents. wypuld enable persons to depres the Funds, When' a Loan was to be made, he had no apprehension of that kind; but he trusted, that the Loan. would be made all at Once, be'cause experience had shewn, that having two Loans in the' year was very inconvenient. He threW out these Observa tions not by way of opposition, .beeattse he had the highest opiniOn of the present Ministers,:and of their earnest desire to promote the welfare of the Country. • He trusted that a continuance of-Peace would enable them to do much ) but he. was induced to apprehend - that as the Peace had stopped all pro_ motions in. the French Army, there would be. many persons in that Country anxious for the renewal of the War, and consequently every measure of secu rity would be 'adopted by. the Government "of this Country: • -- The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' said, he, was not sure that he could' follOw the Hon. Gentleman through all. his Objeaion.s, or .rater through all the comments .he had made upon his plats ; but he would do it as far as his recolleetiOn would enable him. The Hon. Gentleman had laid considerable stress upon one point in. which he (Mr. DENT) appeared to be completely. mistaken. The HOn. Gentleman had represented the Bank as being favoured in this transaction .; now the only favour the Bank . required, or would receive, was, that they should be paid the Bills they held, without' any premium.. The difference upon this occasion,. between the Bank and the Individual Holders was,' that the former took Stock for their Bills with a bonus, and the Bank were paid without one. ' The ' Bank were undoubtedly masters of their own pro; perty, and had, in his opinion, ailed upon this occasion diicteetly and wisely, : and ha& only fa, • !Owed the pra&ice which they had adopted for solve 'years.,." The Hon. Gentleman had expressed a wish. that the `'hole Loan necessary for the. service of the year, should be made at once, but he was sure that the COMmittee would agree with him in thinking, .that. he Would'nOt under the present ..tircumstancesr;olltlie Country, he. were. to attempt' 'making the whole. Loa► . at'pres:etii and' it was because he was unwilling tomake a small Loan now that he had had recourse to the present plitn.-7.The OSD ON, NQ F . E.VB 4,R 17, tBpt• ,0 WE this morning rcceired Parii Paper: to ( 116 . .t4 nothing r inst. In their contents we find nothing extract that'can at all interest an English Resclec' if e except one Paragraph from the Clef I ea binet. • 4 .‘ It is said that Lord CORNWALLIS has beef' much aft - Idea by the reception he met with from the People, when crossing the crowd in his carriage' the only one which on the' 9th of November WO suffered to pass. This reception must -prove r him, that,' far from having rendered the French unnatural, the Revolution has only rendered then . more sentimental, and that they disclaim thosf hateful feelings which otitlast Pacification. O il " serving men must . no doubt also have remarke d, that the People now More than ever feel their diffi nity, their interests, and their strength ; and it henceforth be tio more easy . to enslave, nor to r 01 5" lead them." • SOME occurrences whiCh passed in the ,Debate.i° the nouse. of Commons on Friday Night, have 0 afloat much Speculation as to the State of Patties a t this moment in the Country. The Opposition Bensch was not only. deserted b i y thOso who hays usually occupied it, but every person 'who ha's ge 6e " rally taken a part against the Ministry; 'seems`; he ° get as far from it as he could, lest- he shoal` } — The s.t 11 Auspee.l-.NI of retaining hi s o ld sentimeritsk Si ipeeches t rIZRNEI before th Professio Mr. GRE' upon the the oppo TIERNE, rather ex he saw fc etuntry; thoie Mi duced, .ai sistance. We fe l ideratior t itled to shall hea which he those tale be en the qttEtivrt tatu.ralth; Self on the to to do ; tier wbog will be v, We ag as has be blg the F hardly be of this C( benef tvery dai its blessit fullest e 3 RY, are 11 °[ny mu llorrly not .deed be a false secu To .of . . 3 1 1 eration titled bef st a d ap tli lion of E ' 11 , 14 .at shur the trenc SS expen Unciei the th , lng til ind leave :!Oiarnerlce ton will sail hi nt t C ountry, has di o btaining e allude Lo pe we 5 t he surest Qo Untry. The I/ arrived. The IC] James's P FIE R iv 11)g-Roon fi Lo r d I ,eent Si.n ` nt l id cc tak en Y it is or nal mo n & s, d laurel ant Ilained at IA mist 44 the o LIE. 1' kel 'efie. has ti 4ttlemen !Ittva vleneral ; Hon. -e-ritlemaa ha I th at h i s (Mr. AteNi ,4 it• Tort's) predecessor, ,had always promoted Compe, Lion ; he believed that that Right Hon. Gentlete had. alvrays wished to adopt every plan which, an enlightened Mind, and a patriotic heart, app ed calculated to promote the public service.. Vnt the present circumstances of this Country,' tr l thought he must bo a b o ld *Minister who vv 001 ' „Pow_ make, a Loan„withaut.a.Competition-:--it- 40 not, however,„ necessary to quote .42e-. of his predecessor, to conviii-ce him . of the pro 'priety of. Competition,l-because be approved dam' dedly of it p and the only reason why he had 0 1 _had recourse to it on The present occasion 10, preoisely, because the nature of the , transaal°' Would not admit of - it. He wished particular/7 to he understood upon this paint, because 12 , kne* how expressions were laid, hold of, ar" what use was made of them. The only reasee° th4t there was 'no competition in this ease was, be' cause it was. absolutely impassible in such a tray' saaion : that there could be any, The Hon. Cre"' tleman had said, it was erroneous to suppose, t1; 0 creating a capital of z,000,0001. more in LW 3 per Cents.: Would enable interested persons gO depress the Funds; but the Hon.. Gentleman did, not argue this quite fairly, because, in talking t' hgoo'sPool, .additiOnal 3.per Cent.' Stock, he to o the plan now proposed ; but if the Hon. Goal' mall's own plan v/as adopted, viz. of funding deg all in the 3 per Cents. there would be no oat! tional capital of above tz,ooo,copl. createdr 4 There . were two other points upon which the HO: Gentleman was raist*en. He (Mr. ADD rrirrJf . l had never stated that-the Bank c o uld not 1) 0 Stock, as the Hon. Pentleman 'supposed; and, as td the difference of interest between funding in 0 1 3_ per Cents. and ticcoraing to:the present p/al being 28,0001, a year, the Hon. Gentleman hx? fallen into that error by taking the difference of terest at 6,. gd. instead of is. OZ. 444 was whOlediArence between .the two plans: • ' • Mr,A),Errt and theCl4ANcst.gox of the Exclis.' gut severally explained.. T/41.VEY: said, he en ti re ly approved ths, plan, and nothing that he had heard from ti!, .Koh. Gentleman -had induced hirn to change i bis neon,---Fie was not quite So clear that•a 'Compri" tion was at all times 'beneficial, because the fior's Gentleinan'knew that there might be •an oper'r .though-*no"t a. real Conipetition; but, in this c:I S F! CornPetiticm was out of the question.—The qu'''a ..tion in thii case was, whether it was:better to W.' these Bills- or to !nye. a • Loan ?-• and, upon tr point, he. thought there could be nQ clOuht. plan proposed by the Hon.. Gentlemen: would haf f tile effeet of lowering the Stocks, because, if ther l i was a small Loan, all. the -Competitors must 1 ' but Stock to enable them to bid,- which moat` 01 course depress the Funds. The total of the diee! , ence between the plan now proposed, and that of it l6 1.-fon.Gentleinart Was, - only is. cd.•per cent . w hich upon the whole Loan, was not- much more - tiYis 70901.. a year. ••• But, on the other hand, there- tv"t - ' 5 to be taken. into eonsideration the many advanrae attending this plan, and which had been so 214 stated by the - CHANCELLOR of the Eitc;iicouelil that'he would not attempt tai repeat them,—TV only apprehension he' had Lipn the subjeet what was stated by the Honourable Gentle:art that the Holders might not adhere ( 0 ti ; . bargain. But it was hardly fair far the Honours Gentleman to censure the Ministers in one , ar t il4 1 1 his speech, for not. maki ng a b etter bargain, a 1.4 then to urge as: an obje&ion* to it, that it was 5° good a bargain for the Public,. that the MI Holder: were not likely to adhere to was not rei" , candid co censure a Minister both ways. The C HANG ELLO R of tbe EXCHEQUER the difference of Interest between the present inclal i and that of furiding in the 3 per Cent, was 76 0 01, The Resolutions were then agreed to, art 4 W ' Report. was ordered to he,rectived toemarrow, Whe Committee of Ways and Means was 4rfat if till Wednesday. A; six o'clo*, the Holuphijou pled tte.morrotfe THE SUM. 10LEM faU:S AUDLAT