The Sun. — London, England, 1801-05-05 00:00:00

its interest. From Archbishop Wake it appeared, that . the Clergy in Ireland held this privilege, until the latter' end of this reign, when an Ad passed, prohibiting the Irish, Clergy from gieing their vote in any temporal affair whatever : anti from the period - that the Clergy renouoced the Pope's judsdidion, and . recognised the 'Supre macy of King,lleory VIII. mig,hr. be dated their extinaion as a Legislative Body -ioethe From that period the Parliamentary e ßight of the. Clew , remained dormant,: la& the. Convocation corittnued to- be summoned, and to meet, and their privileges remained dormant, although continuing to exist. "In the reign of Charles I. an Apt passed prohibiting- -the Clergy from the exercise of any TemporatpOwer whatever. In the year 1666 the right of sitting in Parliament was given up, : when in lied of it, they had the right.granted them of voting for 11(lembers'.Of .Parliament. From that period the Clergy had been taxed bx the Coonnons e When the' Clergy were ir the plenitude of their power, they 'always -felt themselves . interested. in opposing Taxation, because their own wealth was affeded; whilst, wherever they possessed lands, the Commons always•exercised the. right of taxing their lands in common with those of others. This appear ed to be the case in many ,instances during the reigns of Edward 11. andlll. unless where the clergy taxed themselves to raise their own Subsidies.. After this Historical dedudion, Earl Teeir LE called the attention of the House to -examine how the fad stood with regard to the.. Clergy's having ever sat' in that House. In no period of the English History had the Clergy - in any one instance' claiMed the light of sitting as Representatives of the CoMmons. He made a difference between sitting as Represen tatives of the Commons, and as Prodors of the . Clergy. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth the Clergy presented a Petition, praying to Sit as Members ofthe House of Commons. In this Peti tion they expressed themselves as the fittest persons to maintain the Queen's prerogative, &e.-e-The Rev. Gentleman on the opposite side, was the best judge whether, in presenting himself to the choice of the EledorS of Old. Sarum, he laid his claim upon the same ground of supporting the Privileges and Prerogatives.' of the Crown, in contradistinction to the Liberties .of the People. A similar Pe. tition was renewed by the Clergy in ,the reign of James 11. and was again reje6led. Thus it ap peared that they twice petitioned as a boon, for what he expeded the House would be told that .night existed as their right. But this privilege had never been claimed or exercised by them as a right, Adverting co the Report of the Committee, it ap peared, that after a Member's name the term Cleri ens sometimes appeared; but then in the old Grants this term sometimes denoted Lawyers and men of learning.; it was therefore no proof, because this word was added to the name, that the persons were 4ti Hcily Orders. Sir Thomas Maxey's name did not, appear. The case 'of the Dean of Carlisle (Christopher Perkins) was peculiar : it appeared that he had received this benefice under a particular diSpensation, and that he was still a Layman. There' - was a case existing somewhat similar even at pee , sent, of a . Layman, and a Member of that. House;-: enjoying a Church Benefice.. He meant the ,Pro fessor Civil LaW at Oicfdrtl, who was, ex officio, Prebend of-Salisbury, and, as such, had even the-pri vilege of preaching. That be did not exercise it, was 'doubtless to the loss of the good peiple of Salisbury. The Report of the Committee stated, that in every case wheie the House had taken this subjed into consideration, they had uniformly declared the in ability of the Clergy to a scat in Parliament, and . that Clergymen, when:returned, had been obliged to vacate their seat. Here his Lordship 'quoted in illustration the cases of Alexander Newell, Preben. dary of Westminster; and of Robson, Clerk in Orders. Sir Edward Coke stated, that in his time a Clergyman was.turned out from his seat, viz. Dr. Craddock. Besides these; there w,as the case of Mr. Rushworth.- This Gentleman was returned, .as not wearing the badge of a Clergyman, and took his scat unnoticed, and unknown in that charatler. The Eleaion Committee returned that John Rush worth, Esq. was duly eleftedl but there awas no record of Parliament . before the House, nor reason stated why this Gentleman was thus returned. — But the Learned Counsel upon that oceasion.rested, his claim upon the. ground that his Client was • only in Deacon's Orders, and therefore eligible. , But, after all, this was only the Report of a Com. mittee liable :to :error; and he contended that the. naked unsupported decision of one Committee was no ground for the direction of another, when it stood in opposition to the Usage and -uniform Deci ,-sions of Parliament ; he contended that in every in stance where the House had taken notice of the fad, the principle of the Ineligibility of Clergymen to.a Seat had been heid down and confirmed. - In Aid of this opinion his Lordship quoted. the sentiments of Judge Blackstone and Sir Edward Coke, and ie_ leered 'to Ludees Reports.. The Master of the Rolla, he observed,.liad never sat in Parliament till of.late years r because formerly that office had been holden by Clergymen. " But," said his Lordshio, I maybe told that the Clergy have a eight to sit in the House, because the Convocation is no -more.'' But this is not the faa ;—thc Convocation still tuber, though their powers are dormant. In forming a decision on this subjeCt, the House had t o look to the dry which they owed to Posterity, es well as to their Constituents. The. Clergy now knew too well . What belonged to theM, and that to the purity of their manners, and the example whichetheet, the People were more beholden than to all the iotrigues of a former turbulent Priesthood. At the saris tinie the House ought to recoiled what had passed in former periods of History, not What it had now to fear. He believed the Country at large was now as completely reprdented as 'circum stances would admit ; but if the eligibility of the Clerma to sit in it were admitted, the douse Would have half its number filled by Clergymen. It would give 'tUnethe right of a double, taxation, of them selves in Convocation, and also es' taxing Members and others in Parliament. This, if once conceded to the Clergy, might be carried to an extreme, dangerous to the Constitution in Church and State. :c slid not grudge to the Clergy the influence eel,ich, Clergymen they deserved, but he never would consent to give them a right to voto,in the .1-ieuse of Cummoo, or to allow them to deka their Pulpits in order to wansier in the crooked paths of Politics, ,and to degrade their Clerical character into that of the agents of prejudice and radios'. But he might be :told that his argdment equally tnilititted agaiust Clergymen's filing up any temporal office, such as that of justice. of the Peace. But the cases were differeet, for to whom could the petty disputes. in a Parish be better referred than to those who had every inducement to maintain its pe:tee ? Or by' ivlsbm could justice. l• more - impartially administered than by those who, by their habits and inclination, were peculiarly fit ted fur the due adMinistrAion of it r " But it Might be said that his argument went to the exclusion of beneficed Clergymen from Parliament, but not of the unneneficed—There was no just ground for the distinction: He might also be told that the Rev. Gentleman opposite. to .him. was no longer a Clergy,: man, having divested himself of 1-loly Orders. But here he would defy that. Rev. Gentleman to ,bring forward any Law, Civil or Ecclesiastical, any Au thority or Precedent, to prove that in any one case, the Clergy have the right of divesting themselves voluntarily of their office. • By the 66th Canon it was expressly declared, that neither Priest nor Dea. con could divest himself voluntarily of his . office ; and this, with the other Canons, 'still bound the Clergy. Such a voluntary divestiture was contrary to Law as well as to the solemn engagements which the Rev. Gentleman had entered into at his ordinatiOn,- and, in consequence of which, he was. put in possession of certain privileges. No case nor form existed of the resignation of 'the office of Priesthood. But it might be said that, by the Canon Law, such an abdication involved the sentence of Excommunication, and that an excommunicated Lay 7 min was not incapable of a scat in that House. It was a sufficient answer to say, that the Canon treat ed such an one as a Clergyman, and not as a Lay man. It was a matter of doubt whether the Spi ritual Court could divest a man of Holy Orders by any sentence of its own, much less'could a man do so by any voluntary an. The Rev. Gentle m an might, indeed, tell the House that he lead cast off his gown. But if any Patron were to present bhn with a-benefice, unquestionably he would be under no necessity of a fresh ordination. He would say then, that no person .was capable of the peculiar privileges attached to two distill& situations. -The •present must be considered, and should be treated as one conncaed with Religion. Let the Reverend Gentleman call to mind the 'Oath which he 'swore at his Ordination,. to give up his life to God . and the Service of the Ministry, and to fulfil the vari ous duties of the Clerical Office—and let him also recoiled the words of tlfe Bishop when he' imposed hands upon him and .ordained him—and let him • pause, before he again ventures to say that he hopes he has got rid, by a quarantine of many years, of the infedion of the Priesthoe' d. Let him recol. lea that it has been proved at the Bar, how" he has soleinnly administered the Sacraments, tecess— Upon the whole, his 'Lordship said, lie must con tend, that this Gentleman could not take his Seat in that House; as a Clergyman he could not do so; and as a Layman lie cannot, for a Layman he can not be. Earl TEMP LS then concluded with mov ing a that the Sr EAxna do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, for a new Writ for the - Borough of Old Sarum, in the room of the Reverend JOHN HORNE TOOKt, who being .at the time of his Eledion in Holy Orders, was incapable at the time of his Ele'tion to a Seat in that House." Mr. Fox and the CHANCELLOR of the EX,CHE. QUER rose at the same time, but Mr. Fox sat down again immediately, and Mr, ADDINGTON proceeded ; understand_ ing, he said, that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) did not wish to speak at present, he should offer his sentiments upon the subject now before the House, but he should not enter,much into the detail of it.— He said he was bound to acknowledge to the House, that he felt some embarrassment upon this subjed, from the manner in which the Noble Lord had pro. posed it in the Motion now before the HOuse.-Llt would have been a satisfedion to him, if the Noble Lord, instead of coming forward with the question in , its present shape, had solicited the attention of the House, and asked it to form an opinion on the abstraa question of the eligibility of persons in Holy Orders, having a Scat in the .House Of Com mons ; and, if the House bad fanned an opinion, that a person in Holy Order's was ineligible, then* the course to be pursued watild be plain ; but finding `the question . as it, was,. it was his duty to - say, that to one part of the proposition he was ready to ac cede; but he dissented from the other. Before he proceeded further,' however, he begged to make his acknowledgment to the Noble Lord for the informa tion he had received 'from' the speech= he had just, heard. The - subjea was of extreme' importance, and the Noble Lord , had taken it up with great. care, and had 'bestowed upon 'it much attention, proceeded through it with considerable. labour,. and displayed uncommon ability in its discussion.' With rtsped to the latter' part' of the 'Motion; namely, that which stated that the Honouseble Gentleman, at the time of his Eledion, in ; Priest's Orders, and therefore incapable , 'of skiing, in the House" of Commons, he owned,. he felt a dif ficulty, not with tespca to the princijile of - that proposition, for he' had no doubt whatever, that a per s on in Holy Orders was ineligibfe to,aSeat in that-House, but upon the form Ot the propOsitien. In, going to ancient times, when the wholeisegisla rive, Body of this Country sat together, we should find that they were composed of ilfainater, Ceres, "Clerici, and' Optinats, it was thus once the whole body of Parliament was composed, of which] the Clergy formed an integral part; but afterwards the Magnates separated froM the Optinistes . ,, - and then the Clergy separated from both, and consti tuted a House of Convocation. s It appedrede that -0 low' down as the time of HE r a r VIII: the Clergy sat in Parliament, but did not vote in cases in which the Laity were . concerned ; but it was to his mind evident, from the whole histOry of the' Parliamews of this Country, that persons in Iloly Orders ucler sat in the House of Commons' as indi-' vidual Members of Parliament, hul as part olthe , Clergy, the Procuratores Clerici. 'The Noble , Lord had referred to a Petition which was presented' onbehalf of the'Clergy toQueen ANN, and certainl} , the,Noble Lord had quoted that mattercorredly';' there were also Petitions presented to EDWARD the Sixth, and to Pam the First.--Now the round on which it appeared to him - that the - Clergy never did sit in Parliauient, otherwise than as he had stated, he need not dwell upon, because it was mi nutely detailed is the Report of the Committee now before the HnuF.P, and ' had "'been ably commented upon by the Noble Lord.---There were four promi nentpoints in the Report, to which he would refer the attention of the - flouse7=- - the - casr of The-Pt. . of.NWstinlnsiietvin the reign of JANt es ; the case of .Mr. Roil•ON ; the car of Dr.. CaAnuoic ; and, the case of Mr. Rits,H,WORTH ; by all - whitir—in - : - . I stances, the "coinpetency:of - persons in-Holy Orders sitting in that House 'was. denied. He then took notice of the Law as, laid ,down by' Lo id -Co tc,c, - . supported as it was by the wisest men afterwards, and 'maintained by the highest Constitutional 'Au thorities-known to, this Country, down to, : the days of BLACKSTONE,' by all which it appeared, -that persons in Holy Orders were not eligible to a Scat in the . 1 -rouse . of Commons. A material :mint, however, for the House to consider was this—in the.year 1664 an important change took plate with. regard to the Clergy, for they ceased to tax them.' selves, and the 1-lOuse taxed them as well as the Laity. It should be recolle&d, that the clergy were exempted- in ancient times froM taxes Only in reference to certain spiritual matters, although they had at this day no exemption whatever in taxation, and when the change took place, it was not pre cisely .as the Noble Lord had stated, for, although the Clergy taxed themselves previous -to that pe riod, yet when they did so, their power, even upon that subjea, was ,not cemplete, for their rules and orders were -not. efficacious until they had received . the sanction of Parliament, and therefore the Clergy could not, striffly speaking, be said to tax them- betimi- selves.—The question then came • to this, and it made a very material feature in the case itself, Whe ther that which had been stated by Sir ED W. CDR E agteeing with the whole proceedings to be foltnd on the Journals of Parliament—whether, when the ground of the exclusion cf the Clergy had been taken away, the exclusion gone with it ? Whe the?, f the grounds on which it appeared the Clergy were excluded, had ceased, the exclusion itself had ceased also ? He said- this, because he knew it was a favourite doetfine with some Gentlemen in that House,, that if the reason for which a Lam: was ena6ed was at an end, the Law was at an end also this was a maxim to wlich he did, not subscribe. In louking down from the period of 164, there oc. curred no instance to the present time, in which the Legislature had recogniLed the Clergy as sitting in that House ; and he thought, it the principle were admitted, that the Clergy were eligible to Seats in that liouse, it might diminish the purity, and impair the .independence of the House. : This he did not utter with any irreverence for that class of-persons, but with views purely political ;. for .it should be remembered that a great part of the Be nefices of the Clergy were from the immediate gift of the Crown, and therefore a fit °Ned of the jea. lousy of that House: a great part also from the Nobility, which wits also a fit objeCt of the jealousy of that House. One-third of the Livings of the Clergy were disposable at the will of the Crown, and this of itself was an objeEtion of great weight ; and it had always been the policy of the House to oppose a principle of , this kind; becatise• whatever tended to introduce into the House Influence froth the Crown, or the Nobility, Mast tend to degrade tire House. by the ditnintition of its Independence : it was therefore inconsistent for The House to allow such a principle to be established. now, if such prin ciple had never yet been admitted,. and it certainly had not. It did not appear, either in the Votes of the House,- nor .ia_any accounts we .6a.of the De bates since the year 1664., where the attention of the House had been called to the subjed, that a person in Holy Orders was ever declared capable ; of . sitting in that House—not .one person was returned of . the description of one in Holy Orders. The Books in the possession of the. Clerks contained no such precedent—pp one had ever appeared in that . House in the.dress, or with those appendages which belonged to that chariiaer—there was no instance in which the Eledors.hacl given their suffrages to a person so calling himself: he therefore was entitled to say, there was' no instance in which the House itself had declared the eligibility, nor. any in which the Eleaors had given their. franchises to a person in Holy Orders, stating himself to them to be such : they had been returned', and they had- sat in other charaelers. He then must contend, -that a person in Holy Orders was not eligible to. a Seat in that. House.---The difficulty, - then, which he felt, was not on the Eligibility of Clergymen sitting in the louse of Commons, for he was convinced they were not eligible ; 'but his difficulty was upon another point,.which he would_presently explain. He Con ceived it to.be a fundamental principle, and founded • oo the wisest-policy this Country. could adopt, to prevent the Clergy, as.rouch as possible, from in. terferink in temporal concerns, -except -when called' on in a speciahmanner. There were instances in deed, where the .1(1 rqc .had been pleased to appoint persons of the Clerical funliun, in - some cases, judges-41f others, 'Ainbassatiars ; 'but in the ordi_ nary course or_ things, if they were Appointed to Secular offices,- they were relieved from the burthen of the duttes - of them; _of which there was a strik_ ing instance of a Gentlemen' at Romney BuCtite'difficultyiwiliCh he had hinted sit was this: Whether, under the-present circumstances the -Haase! could,, consistently with certain. Ya cii. t mcnt v Pro visions now in forci,:ortier a.tteV . Writ to . 6e issued! -- for another Member in the place 'Of it9en t ng in Holy Orders.-:-.4ie admitied, - that Chet Hon. Gentleman-over- the . way (Yfr.sTbox4 Witst i proved . to be_in Holy4).oeis. There ryas no prin. l ciple clearer than this,. that the,'House had divested itself of all distretion iit -tryitig the merits of a 'eon ofi Metriber to S - Crye ; that was the great Qkjecl of Mr..GAPNVILLO and the 'wisdom of-which- had not et r ,.he believed, been dispUted.—Thele.Were, - indeq,-some cases din ; which 'the House had retained its .rower,-frotri die necessity of - things.--- I W,here a Petition was pre- - s&ted agalnst a pe.rioh, Who Offended a Poitive rule of law, in becoming a Member of Parliament, he might be Voted out of the House upon proof of : the fitet--such, for instance, as thai of a person hay_ . lug a Contract, or being a Minor, or an Alien ; in such case:, nothing was necessary but to prove •the faa, either that saw Contra& existed, eiat ti c party, was a Minor, or an •Aliet,, and thellou= ordered the new Wt it to be issued immediately, because there being ri o other mode, a now Writ must necessarily issue; hilt the difficulty 'irith him, was owing to the great t ::spett he had for the authority of those Who enters ained doubts on the question now before the House, as to the eligibility of per • T T • _, _IT 'T. case was not doubttlil in his own mind, but it WAS doubtful in the minds of those whose °pillions he whOse opinions were won record in a recent deei .sioll.:—.llli case of Mr. Ru.saw 0 itjti was this—he Orders, .was petiti6ned 'against, as !being incapable: of 'being elected or sitting in that ' , I-louse; and he 'was declated duly cletted, and he was described as Fa) NV AR. D RU S R Ili, Esquire. The 'HOtise declared Rustr*o-rit; being a Deaeoli7 ',was capable of: sitting in the House., A distinction n D d ea s enp ' that of a Prieson.-hts.t•he was convinced, upon pert. i sal of thellistanthorities, and upon a good de:d of irefleaion •upon the:csubjett, shat there was no. suck . fdistinaion in reality—the Clerical charaaer, he was . persuaded,. was the same in both. - The case in this • restteCt was not- at all doubtful in his own mind, but it was so in the minds of others, to whose senti ments he was disposed, and he was indeed bound to pay respell - . The difficulty, then, he had was this : A policy' had been now some years adopted, frcius which he•could not - advise . the House to depart ; he meant the enactment of Mr.Gßtiivi lAA's Bill ; to that were Contested EleCtions referred in general.-- Within a few years a question had occurred,. re speeting, whether a person who held the °Hide - of Secretary of State was held a Member of- that' House : Mr. BURKE'S Bill aided those who were concerned in the disposal of that point ; and, indeed, the true question in that case was, who was to be called the Third Secretary of State? So the other day a doubt had been started, respecting the Eligibi lity of his Noble Friend (Lord IlAn . x.tsatiaTii It • was not a doubtful pint of Law—a -language not tolerated in some places ; and he should endeavour to speak in a manner that shOuld not offend.tbe • chastest cars upon this subjea; and say, it was .a. point on which doubts had been entertained;.-and his; Noble Friend took a course which the H ouse knew, and which set that question at rest. He therefore should wish that the question' now b e f ore ' the House should not be adopted, because it satinet} to call 'upon the House to incroach upon the provi- • sion of Nil-. GRENVILLE I S.BiII... He knew th ei t was a disposition to exclude every thing that was very inconvenient. The ars-upreattqn al ioecovue-. n;ent; had been pushed too far, ancLit might be, made to go so far, -as to do away a great deal old • the good sense of many of the Laws by which-we were governed. There were poio:s, however, on which the Inconvenience was an answer to a propo sition, although it•was liable to no ether obje&idu:,- Suppose the Hotise were to agree to the. Motion of the Noble Lord, what would be. the pray ioal drat of it ? Was there any thing . binding on those who: had elated the Hein. Gentleman not to 'return him :again ?- Could they by any Vote, like that pro.. posed by 'the Noble-Lord, be precl u d e d f rom re ": . turning him again ?, If he was again returned, and a. Petition were to be presented against him, that Petition.mUst„ under _the authority or Mr. GR. EX.: V ILL E'S Bill, be referred' to a Commiitee, which Committee, he hoped, would not differ froni th House yet, without anv.'contumacy, they-might differ :from the Resolution of the louse, sup_ posing- the House to form - one, according to the .tenor of the Motion now before it ; and that, of itself, would create much embarrassment in thq • proceedings of - Parliament. If' ,no Petition 'wall presented, the ca.le- would come again in the shape , i it now stood in, and so be perpetually, unless. the Legislature were to apply a remedy to remov,e the whole of the evil. at once. His wish was, CO save the House the disgrace into which it would - be thrown by s uch .a coUrse.' He looked at the ino,x. 'pedieney of allowing-persons in Holy Orders to sit in that House : and, to obviate the whole of it, a Bill, in his opinion, - should be • prepared; for that purpose, and, he verilY believed, if such a Bill was brought forward,. there was no measure, on the ge. irrai Principle of ivhich there - was more agreement of opinion, although-perhaps there might be some (lit. ficulty in the detail. He bad no difficulty in saying, 'nor had he any. objection to hisdeclaration being re. corded,_ t hat a person in Holy Orders was not eligible to a seat in that House, that the, Clerical Chirac - let was indelible, and that the Canon, of isso3,.built on another- a little while preceding, was one of sufficient authority to he hinding-on the opinion of thaflioose, and to he of the best authority—That Canon had declared, th at no person in-Holy Orders could interfere in' temporallatFairs under the penalty of Excommnnication.—He, would. ir:deed` remain a Deacon or a Priest as before, but it would be a great deal too Mitch .to say, that he could thereby so divest himself of the Clerical Character, as to be entitled •to take up. other privileges which that charaaer Was not entitled' to.-=Could any body say, that if such a- person•'was p re s e nted With any Church, preferment, he Would not rake it ?—Cer. vainly -be- could not ; and lie Wished it to-be im. pressed - upon 'the -House, that the charaaer ob. mined l' e 'by Holy Qtders was indelible; he had stated Abe:ground .an which that- opinion was foUodedi'and - therefore, -he'did not-feel it, necessary to - detain..the l l - 16u-se much farther : Ile :oust how.. -ever, oWe'r re; that those. io might hoot opinion • that a new- Writ.ought..to:isSue, in consequence of :the ncligi hilitY of Vie . Hon. Memi:Ser;' might also be the subjej •., , . .of opinion,. that. an.A4ofl arlooncot.would be nee cessary -to set the uuestion re:q ; and it was . put :tn 'posterity,..as 'well as the present generation, byo ile I t' t ' ri a t -tu th t e h 7; l _4 i ' c is 'i- l i a ' t u u n re °t should bi n d House more_of • than discretion which ttn , . alway s be n :trlded by unternlinty. Those who thought a 4 sal e ta° a .bg r e c et t: }l : er t paitjeular,, aritt Vto ( n t that the ineligibil4 was iocont.eitible, and o n & 14 o k besoon'principle, if it were not 'anon prt:cecie ut , for the supporcof the indei:.en . 3.ence •tl:e well as to•preserve the spirit o f Mr. s I .;iti o Art m ust also desire that an A shouia tae p ut . Fo ° r se he of h P ad re n v o e n d t i i fE t l i c n a s sc ay . f i r n o g ra4 4 c:. his occuermn , agai n , Was contrary to the Let-et C,;;;l:setk,../;.Paritaw.,.,„.;.