The Sun. — London, England, 1804-02-09 00:00:00

k)aIlot for ale Militia, he was only exempted from sere ing in the Militia while he continued to serve. in 'the 'Corpse and the moment 'he withdrew himself from the Corps, he became liable of course to the Militia,. He could not help expressing his astonish ment at thee-general misapprehension of the law upon this part of the subje& which prevailed, and which he had had an opportunity of obseeving from a very voluminous Cor - resportdencte which it had b - een his-, duty to enter into. With regard to the Army of Reserve the Law was different, for the Volunteer was not only exempted from serving in the Army of Reserve while he was serving in the Volunteers,' but he was also exempted froth the Ballot. The prin cipal difficulties and inconveniericies of the Volunteer System related to the Volunteers when they were dis embodied, that is to say, when they were not called out upon aEtual duty' in consequence of the Invasion of the Enemy, or his appearance on the Coast. Be. cause, if the 'Volunteers were aftually called out in case of either - of these events, they would of course be under - 6'l'e - rain - day Aft, and. s.ubjea to' all 'the Atticles of War, and in that case very little would be heard about Committees. One alledged defe& of the Volunteer System was, that the service being voluntary, it was impossible that Military disci pline could ever be carried to the extent that it was in the Regular Army, or in the-Militia. Indeed, it was absurd to suppose that they could be made equal in paint of discipline to Regulars, nor did he know that it wasdiecessary. When - the Volunteers were first established, it certainly WAS desirable that they should devote as much time as, possible to training, in order to enable them to perfarm - their ordinary &ties, and therefore every — effort was made at first for that purpose ; but when once the Volunteers had learned-their duty, it 'was not only unnecessary that they should be called out so fre quently as they had hitherto been; but it might even be injurious 'to the System itself to at. tempt it. '!'he next objeaion which had heen urged against the Volunteers was the existence of Committees. Fie had taken' considerable pains to examine into this subjeft, and the result of his inquiries was this, that in some Corps there cer. tainly were Committees ; but for what purpose ? not to regulate the Military business of the Corps, but fur the purpose of managing their pecuniary con cerns. He hoped that before any general prejudice ' was adopted about Committees, that Gentlemen would for a moment consider the nature of the Vo lunteer System, and they would find that a very great number of Corps had completely equipped themselves 'at their own expense, by subscriptions which they had entered into fur that pUrPose. - It surely then could not be. a matter of astonishment, or of blame, that they should appoint Committees to manage the' disburseMent of their own money, and to take care of their pecuniary concerns. This was a measure which, in fart,, could hardly be avoided, and it preirailed very generally doringthe last War. He was perfeftly aware that in -- some in stances the Committees enieavoured to interfere in the Military'affairs of the Corps ; but wherever that happened, it always had, and be hoped always would be resisted. This inconvenience, however, scch as it was, could only subsist when the Volun teers were in what might be called their disembb died state, for whenever they were called out into inual service, :hey would be in the pay - otthe Public, and consequently would not want Commit tees to manage their pecuniary point upon . which' some misapprehensions had pre sailed was, the Eleftion of Officers. There was a -very great distinftion between the Eleftion of Officers at the first formation of a Corps, and their choosing them whenever any vacancy might after. wards occur. It was very natural upon the 'first establishment of a *Volunteer Corps, in a large town foi instance, that they should wish to put them selves under the command of men whose charaaer they were acquainted with, and in whom they could place confidence. This had always been allowed, though the Aft of Parliament allowed of no such Elec tion, When an offer was made to form a Volunteer CO'rp s , the names of the Officers Were transmitted to the LorA-Lieutenant ; if he knew of any objeClion against any of the persons recommended, it Was in his.' power not to transmit their names to the Se. cretary of State ; and again, if the Secretary of State knew of any solid objeftion against any of them, he ought oat to lay them before His Majesty for his approbatibn : so that in fad this claim of eleaing Officers'amounted to nothing. He had no hesitation in saying, that if such a claim could be set up consistently with Law, it would by in the highest degree dangerous, and if any Coips should be so ill advised as to insist upon this supposed rieht, it would be the duty of Ministers to advise His Majesty to discontinue the services of such Carps. He did not mean to :ssert that instances could not be found among old Corps where such a praClice had prevailed ; one_case in particular then, occurred to hiM, and that was the Light Horse ; Volunteers, but this was a very old Corps, and subsisting under particular regulations. There might be (miler cases in which such a Hi, vilege had been exercised, but they were in old Corps, and. certainly not in any that had been formed since the commencement of the present - War. Another defeat whieh had been stated to subsist in the Volunteer System was, that there were no means of enforcing regularity ,of attendance and of behaviour 'in the Members. It appeared, however, to him, thet there were at present means of enforos: ing them which appeared to be 'tolerably efficient. In, case of repeated negleft of drills or field -days, or of misbehaviour, the Commanding Officer, inde pendent of fines, had. it in his power to cause the Member so misconduCting himself to be dismissed from the Corps, 'anti as soon as he was dismissed, he became liable - to the Militia, .and to the Army of Reserve.- It was equally clear, that no person was entitled to any exemption, unless he attended a certain number of days prescribed by Aft of Par_ !lament. It was contended that stronger measures were necessary ; but he was very much inclined to' doubt it. ; he did not think it was part Of the system --it certainly did not form a part of the system in the last War. It seemed to him quite sufficient, that if a V,olunteer did not attend 'regularly, that he was liable to be dismissed; and to he thrown backinto.the ; gut - 4.r,i a-lass of the People, liable, as hehad before stated, to serve in the Militia, or in . the Army of Reserve. He had now, he believed,. stated the ge. • tad defeCls and inconveniencies that were said tt bed:; eg to the Volunteer System. Some of them . were inherent in the. system, and could not 4 be_ got rid of without geesez it up altogether ; others cere: tainly were. capable of remedy. But the question was; wliether it was not - bette.t. to rake the Volon teer System, with all its defeas, then to . resort to another We were now in a situation which left us- only a choice of difficulties, and in his opinion they were the wisest who chose that plan which was attended with the fewest difficulties, and which was most consonant with the feelings of the People. It was; therefore, in his opinion, the duty of Parlia ment to endeavour to improve this system as far as was 'praaicable s but nor, by endeaisouring to do too much, to run the. risk of rendering • the whole useless. He would now shortly state the reme dies which might. be applied , to these various deleas, distinguishing, between those which the pre rogative of the King would enable him to apply, aid those which required 'the interference of Parlia ment. It appeared to him that the power vested in the King by his prerogative, and by different Ads of Parliament, tended to check many of the inconve niences which had been stated. In ihe first place,the King had the power of making such rules and regu. lations as he might deem necessary, to discontinue the services of any Corps, to dismiss anyindividu. el, or to remove any Officer that might reiscondua himself, and in case of any defalcation in the num bers, he might resort to the Defence Ad, and call out the different classee as circumstances might..re quire. Under these circumstances, it. appeared to him, that a Moderate and temperate use of the pre. togarive of the Crown, would be sufficient to get rid of many of the inconveniences which sub. sisred. , In - the same way with regard to the Election of Officers, in a very few instances, where the claim had been _set up, it had been resist ed ; if ever such claims should again be set up, the Corps must be informed that it was in an error, and if they should be so ill advised as still to persist, he for one should conceive. it to be his duty tn . advise His Majesty to discon tinue the services of such Corps. Upon these points, therefore, the interference of Parliament was unnecessary, because the prerogative of the Crown was sufficient, but Parliament might interfere to consolidate the different ,Aas upon this subjesf, which certainly would tend to the better understand ing of the Law, and wculd in every respesl be more convenient. Another objea of the measure be meant to propose would be to make some .regulations re. speeting the Exemptions. At present Volunteers were exempt from the Militia, upon exercising with their Corps for five days, but to obtain an exemp tion from the Army of Reserve twenty-four days exercise were necessary for Infantry, and fourteen days for Cavalry. In his opinion all ought to be put upon the same footing. He shouldeherefore propose, that no persdn should in any case be ex empted from the ballot for either the Militia or the Army of Reserve, but that he should be exempted from serving as long as he regularly attended exec, rise in his Corps, that any such: person who should be ballotted for the. Militia or the Army of Re serve, should, upon stating that he was-upon' the muster_roll of a Volunteer Corps, be set aside, and be exempted from serving as long as-he continued upon the roll, but that as soon as he withdrew from the Corps, the Commanding Officer should transmit his name to the Clerk of the Peace, or Deputy Lieu tenant, in order that he might be compelled to serve in, or final a Substitute, for the Militia or Army. of Reserve, according as he should happen to be drawn, But he should,certainly propose that no exemption should be granted to any man unless he had attend ed. exercise ze days in the Infantry, and le. days in the Cavalry: He also thought that the returns should be made oftener than once a year, and that they should be all made at the same rime of the year, and char in cases where a Corps might happen not to be provided with arms, still that they should be entitled to their exemption. He had before stated, that if the decision which had been given in the CoUrt 'uf King's-Bench had not taken place, he should have proposed a Clause, allowing all Vo lunteers to withdraw themselves from their Corps, except when, summoned. out on actual duty, upon giving a notice in writing to the Commanding Offi. cer, for the sake of notoriety ; and in case of his having been furnished with arms or accoutrements by Government, or by a subscription, returning them in as perfea a state as•possible, - allowing for reasonable wear and tear. He thought it would also be advisable to re-enact all the Clauses that re late to the obligations of Volunteers when called out into aftual duty. Upon this 'subject the Law was perfealy clear. Whenever an Invasion happened; or the Enemy appeared in force on the coast, all 'persons whO were enrolled were liable to assemble and to march, if ordered, and they were to .conti nue so until the Enemy was defeated and driven from the Country : these were the principal points in the Bill which he meant to bring in, and he hoped that Gentlemen would not be disappointed that it did not contain any thing new or _ex traordinary. There were some other minor .points which it was nor necessary then to trou_ ble the House with, except one provision, the objea of which was to enable the Deputy Lieute.. rants, in regulating the ballots, to throw the greatest burthen upon those places which had "pro ducedehe fewest Volunteers. Having thtis stated the general outlines Of the Bill, he hoped there would be no objeCtion to his bringing it in, and probably . the best time to discuss it would be on the second reading, after it :had been printed ; however that was of course entirely at the discretion of the House. He was, .he confessed, extremely anxious that the Bill should be discussed with' temper and 'Modera tion. He trusted that the Volunteers would see the necessity of adhering to those engagements into which they entered at a very critical period, but. certainly, not more so than she present. If in Au. gust and September last the threats of the Enemy induced every roan who valued his `King, his Coun try, his property, and his honour, to stand forward, surely the present moment, when the pteparations of the Enemy were completed, menearly so, when we might cxpea. to be attacked in a very short space of time, surely such was not the moment' when English Volunteers would wish 'to with :draw their services. • He knew they would - be actuated by no such feeling; nay he was convinced, that those who might from business or other rnotiv - e; be induced to resign, would be anxious again to I stand forth when the hour of attack arrived, and to shew their zeal and_ patriotism in defence of their Couotry. He then moved, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to consolidate and amend the provisions of the said several Afis made for the Regulation of -the-Volunteer Corps." The question being puts 1111r.,S HERID AN said, he entirely ogreed with the Right Hon. Genii - ern - an who made - this motion, - that this was. not the proper' time for .the general discussion of this subjed- He should only say, a single sentence upon it for : the present, and that on part of what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman, anti that lie should do vvithoitt any view of entering into the orgesnent. He understooll the Right Hon. Gentleinan* iii say,' . ,that there was no right of eledion of Officers in any of the CorPs at all In thatihe entirely agreed. ; there could be no such right, and any Corps' insisting on it 'would be wrong ; but he understood the Right Hon. Gentle man to say, not only that there was no right of eleCtion in such Corps; but also that no recommen dation of theirs would be attended to; if so, he should like to ask the Right Hon. 'Gentleman, where were the Commissions to originate front 1 He did not suppose that any of His Majesty's Mi.: nisters had any idea they should originate from the Crown, as they generally dojo the Regular Army ; if they were not to originate from the Corps, nor from the 'Crown", where there they to come florn ? Ile believed that the recommendation had generally come from the Corps, and that such recommenda tions had been generally attended to and acquiesced in. 'Bat the Right Hon. Gentleman said, that if any Corps should insist On having this recommenda tion from' them adopted, that he should' advise His Majesty to dis Miss such Corps; undoubtedly that s • Was in the power of His Majesty's Ministers,. and it would best' coodudfor which they would of course be responsible ; but there was something in this part of the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which was not -perhaps pettedly clear. sille said, that in the original formation of the Corps, they were entitled to recommends—not to eled ; for Elec tion, it seemed, was a 'wrong word, but they were entitled to recommend Officers according to the ori ginal construction put upon their body when as sembled ; now he wished this matterto he cautious. ly considered, for it was essential to keep up good faith with every' Corps. in the kingdom, for bad faith was always attended with had consequences; and he should wish to see.'that the Right Hon. tletnan was right beforehe proceeded in this mat ter. .Care should be taken:in this patticutir, - for a Corps may have been instituted expressly seating, that they would.serve under' a particular Officer of their own recommendation, and their offers of set-t vice may have been accepted without any intima tion being given to them that they *should not be allowed to continue' their - recommendation of their Officers. The Right Horn, GetStleman said; their recommendation should, not be attended to if they made an improper recomMendation ; certainly not, if it was either 'for a 'catonr, ,or Major; or any other Officer; that was never thought to have been right, for certainly it was always understood to be' in the power of the Lord Lieutenant, or the Secre tary of State, to refuse, to follow -up that recom mendation ; but if they were allowed in the fist instance to recomm - endAlieir Officers, he did not see why their recommendation. should not be allowed to be continued, and 'that fOr this among others reasons, he did not see. where the recommendation could origi nate, if it did not originate with, the Corps. It could not be eetpeoed from the nature of things to originate in like. manner . as the appointments ofeOfficers in the Regular Army oZ f iginate, that was. directly from the ci own_,,Leot all should it .come from the c om mandantof the Corps: There were many rea sous in his opinion, why the Commandant should he the last person, who should have the rebornthen-s. dation of alr the Officers, -but then he should ithink, t h at t h e , approbation of His Majesty's Ministry should always he indispensable to the appointment; of any Officer, and so in fad it always was, and: nobody he believed, ever contended the contrary. He really wished this matter to be cautiously con sidered 'and well understood -t--He knew of One,- instance which was a very striking, one, where a- Corps had been raised and was commanded by an Honourable Friend of his ;Mr. WHITBREAD) it was. a Corps raised at Bedford by that Honourable Gen tleman, of whoM the Corps were:proud, and he was also proud of the Corps—They offered their Ser.-, vices ciplicitly on condition that they , should. be commanded by that Gentleman, their Services had been been accepted on such terms, and they also expressly claimed the ,right of recommending others—Now since these . Services were accepted explicitly on these terms, goad faith Should. be .kept up with theM, and 'indeed he had no doubt it would, and with all other Corps, for he .was .perfediy satisified that Ministers felt warmly for the Volunteers, as was ipdeed very hand,soinely announced by the . Right Hon. Gent. who had now In-might the subjefi forward, for he had said that if the decision of the Court of King's Bench had been otherwise -than it was, he shoidd have proposed to alter the law in that particular, and : make it so that a Volunteer might be allowed to resign, a sentiment chat was worthy of the Gentleman who uttered it, and for which he had no doubt the Volunteers would feel gratitude. Lord C ASTLEREAGH observed, that the Hon. Gentleman who hadjust spoken, had not followed his Right Hon. Friend very closely-in his observa tions upon the speech, by w t hich thisssubjed was brought before the House. ,His Right Hon. Friend had stated what was the principle on which the. Vo.o lunteers proceeded previous . to their existence as a regular body, and what was to. be understood of their power after they were ereded into, and constituted a body. The sentiment of his Right HonoUrable friend upon that subject was this, that a popular eledion teas, generally speaking, contrary in prin ciple to that discipline which is absolutely essential to every largemilitary force; and entertaining that idea, his Right Hon. Friend conceived there 'was a distindion between that which a Corps might do previous to its becoming a Military -Body, and that which it might do 'after it had been formed into a Military Body. It was generally through the me. 'I - chum or tie recommendation of the different Corps filar their'Officers were submitted for the approba tion of His Majesty through the medium of the Secretary of State ;,_but none of them should have apprehended that they shtsolti have continued to have these reconunendations after, they had formed into a Military Body,. because it was a principle which was in itself objeaionable on the ground he had stated-e-thate of a- poptrlar eieaion, --which was un favourable to military discipline., In the first instance., that_ was, before they were formed into military 'bodsiefliere - W:i - s* no evil to be apprehend ed with respect todistipline; bat the case was quite otherwise.' after they were formed into military bodies. Having once been formed into .a Military Corps, it was a delicate thing to expose such a Corps to the inconveniencies of a popular election. But his -Right Hon. Friend had made -this diktinaion s and lie had also stated, that, although thissgeneral military principle operated upon the minds of :His : Majesty's Ministers, yet there were exceptions to thin e where His Majesty had been pleased to recog-; size a custom of. chusing the. Officers by the men, and where, that was the„case that custom should re main undisturbed,- for 'that was what good faith required.; That was. .the case with some Mi litary Forces in .the City of London ; this the constitution of the Military Force e• in that and therefore 'although the 7'); of preventing Military Corps being expos*. •.o inconvenience of a popular Ekeaion of O. extteMely . important lobe preserved, excepted Cases they were to be endured, ' .:.clt cases the, principle had been relaxed, anti Stance. experience had shown that it. might P. re laxed without prejudice. to the Public Safety. the principle itself : star important, but it might be re laxed-, and the discretion which. governed this prin 'ciple could not be left in bettei hands than those it was in . at present, nainelyi in, the hands of His. Majesty, advised as he was by his .Ministers s , who were responsible - for the advice they gave. --But Whatever . : might be brought forward by his Right Honourable Friend, the House might be assured that the principle of good faiths would be kept entire, and adhered to without the slightest deviation ; but having said this, he must be allowed to say,. that :he deprecated the ::principlee:{l as a general one, - that large bodies of:,Militarr should be exposed to the inconveniences. of popular. eleftion. That praaice, therefore, of confirming tO deft Officers in all cases by the Corps, would nq.e • do as .a.general rule. He would not, therefosr , support the general right of a Corps to chose their own Officers, unless upon terms in which they' might be. allowed to do so, where their services had been ticcepted by HiS MajestY, -or in Cases ill 'which His Majesty should be pleased to relax the principle which prevented them from chusing their Officers ; yet this was not. all ; for while he. • deprecated, the praaice of Military C o rp l i being; subjea to the evils of a poindar Eieftion, on account of the effect . itmight produce upon discipline, there were other -evils besides thoc he had hinted at, and such - as the Corps might feel among themselves ; the/ _ - would in Many cases be put to difficulties wle e it they were not perhaps altogether aware of. . 11 7 e having, said this, he shbuld_add, that it was in, opinion material - in the highest degree, .let the recommendation of Officers come from v.-•haw.' ever quarter it- may, that the feelings of the,l who were to be commanded should be cOnsultedeati r egarded with great 'delicacy ; for, after Att[a vl 3 , - lunteer . Corps could never be made to reserntne -any '• other, Militatyl3ody, although it was dea r that they could 'never be well provided tethers His Majesty had the general choice of those who were to command these Corps, - for Hi 3. Majesty alone ought, generally s p e aki ng , to hav e ,. the pow e r of saying who was fit for the command 0 a - Military Force within his Dominions; this, flo w ': `ever, he said, without any idea of Governmen'. - havi n g any breach of gd faith with any bodt of men whomsoever ; but oo lie must again revert I° ' the distinction which was .obvious between a bc d y of men before they are formed into a MilitazyForceil . 'and after they are formed into a Military Force, an that what they might be permitted to do in one cal; - had no anal og y to - what they ought t o - b e p err niete‘, t o do in the Other ; in the one case they might hav e a popular Election without any danger, because if ) the one case they did not require discipline ;to the other, they could not have a popular • F. l c c l • •tion wi t h out d ang er to di sc i p li ne , or in °th% , words, in the one case they were a Civil Body's ' the other they were a 'Militaryißody. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that if it had not b e j, .for the a llusion made' by his Hon. Friend (; Sii DAN) he should perhapi tint have said a rt ,i 6 thing at present upon the . subject now before t` l , House, but he thought it nece s sary to say a le' 4, words on the - subjea of the different Corps chus3l their own Officers, as stated by the Noble Lord an the Right Hon. Qentletnan, but particularly on that • which was 'stated 'by the 'Right Hon. Gentleman , who had informed the House-of the advice he should, give to HIS - Mist Esirv, in the event of any Al tary Corps persisting in the choice of its ov1 9 0 : eels. He was more desirous of adverting to the 5- 010 . ' rinienrs of the Right Von. Ge nt le ma n; as they c a tsic from himself; titan to the .explanation of the No",,e Lord. That Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that any Corps should persist 'in the right of recommendit to .His Majtisty its• Officers, to command them, that" should advise His Majesty to dismiss that Corps - - - . 'that he should advise His Majesty, in the first it; stance j . not to. listen to.such re-commendation; and , t the second, to dismiss such Corps if they should pe r ; sist in such recommendation. This, he apprehende d '' was much too general. The terms of the Corps wht e o he had the honour to command were, - that they shoP t . serve under Officers specifically named by them ; n ee only so, but also such as theYmay recommend hereafC4 to His Majesty, through the medium-of the Ioi „ , Lieutenant of the County. __Their sersqe7 were - accepted' after they sent in these lef e rn e l nor were the terms in the least degree quai li 'd, accept when the service of this Corps wa s aC_ ,If they had - been told that they should not• tk i f this choice or-: recommendation; not only of "' a; present Commander but also of two other , ) that they should not be allowed to continue tol l 3 ty . that reCommentlation, he realFa' apprehended that ha • • such Corps as that which he alluded to would - iv • been formed at all ; now Officers , . he should like to aSk; _~ ~,:a / !' -{ t~