The Sun. — London, England, 1847-01-23 00:00:00

nomuril 134 74 604 its. t 17 0 ° O ° O ed 5 0 aderg sterdoll ire4to' Idholale ire, via° ried Y 1, ;~~ 121 31% 15 1 0 d 460 AT.) alai" -IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSF OF LORDS, Ali. 22. The LORD CHANCFLLO& •opli his scat °A the «( . .o!- sack shortly after Five o ' clock. SPANISH MARRIAGES. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid on the table a Copy of the correspondence between the Government of this country and that of Spain rektite to the Spanish marriages, by the eonimand c f her Majesc,y. The NuBLE MARQUIS thcil mov4 II the :t.dt..urnme7t ('f the Ilou,:e tilt to morrow, at tire o'clock. in con equence of the important business which was to be laid before the Rouse of Commons to-night, and which could not pos sibly be disposed of at the moment. The friction was agreed to, and their Lordships a,l- Journed. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jan. 22. The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. The Hon. CECIL LAWLESS took the oarle, and his seat for the borough of Clonmel, in the room of D. H. PiL:et, who has been appointed Lord Chief Baron ot the Ex chequer for Ireland. NEW WRIT. Mr. TUFNELL moved that a new writ be issued ''or the election of a Member for the city of Chester, in the room of Lord Robert Grosvenor, who has accepted tin Chiltern Hundreds. PETI FIONS ON PRIVATE BILLS. .„Mr. STRUTT moved that, after Tuesday next, this 'louse will not receive any petition for a private Bill Unless it be presented within three clear days aft,•r it shall have been indorsed by one of the examiners. That, on and after Tuesday next, all memorials complaining of non-compliance with the standing orders, be deposited in the Private Bill office before six of the clock in the evening of any day on which the House snail sit, and before two of the clock on any day on Which the House shall not sit, and that with every such memorial two copies thereot be deposited, at the same time, for the use of the Examiners. That all memorials complaining of non-compliance with the standing orders. in reference to petitions which stand in the " General List of petiti o n s " atter number 250, be deposited on or before Saturday, the 6th day of February next. Agreed to. THE ADDRESS.—HER MAJESTY'S REPLY. Lord MARCUS HILL (Comptroller of her Majesty's Household) appeared at tie bar ot the House, and, on being called on by the Speaker, said, that, in obedience to the commands of the House, the Address agreed to by the Commons, in answer to the Speech from the Throne, had been presented to her Majesty, who was pleased to return the following most gracious answer : " I have received with great satisfaction your loyal and dutiful address, and look with confi , lence to your assisting me in my endeavours to preserve the blessings of peace abroad and at home, and in forwarding the general happiness ot my people. I feel assured that no exertion will be wanting on your part to meet my anxious wishes to relieve my suffering subjects in Ireland, and in man,' Parts of Scotland." SUGAR AND MOLASSES IN BREWERIES AND DISTILLERIES. ,Mr- H. DOUGLAS p resen t e d a pet i t i on f rom certa i n s uipovvners in Liverpool in favour of the use of sugar an molasses in breweries and distilleries. Mr. uponsented a petition from the borough of mewcastle-Tyne to the same effect. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Lord CLEME NTS presented a petition from Mobil!, thin the country of Leitrim, complaining that the land of e barony was so exhausted that it was utterly unable , maintain the population, and praying the aid of the tiover nment to enable th em t o em i gra t e t o some other s o i t ntry wher e t h ey m i g h t b e a bl e to ma i nta i n them esy and families by their labour. TEN HOURS' BILL. Lord JOH N MANNERS presented a petition from Bu ralern in favour of the Ten Hours' Bill. E VELYN DENISON presented a petition against in , Poor Removal Bill, complaining ot its operation as furious to the interests of the poor. th e l r• PERRAND begged to give notice that unless , an swer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, hZ,i t he questi on o f t h e Hon. M em b er f or M ontrose _ l4 ,r_egard to the notice he had given with respect to e:sti.t:eotocr..law Commissioners on Thursday next, was Inuilirel.Y satisfactory, he should move for a select Corn inquire into the conduct of the Poor-law Com %loners in administering the new poor-law. fir '_ RICARDO gave notice that, on Thursday next, be ovntd reeve for a select committee to inquire into the ir don laws. —(A laugh.) the T• o. S. r DUNCOMBE moved that the petition of Brunswick be printed with the votes. eon: . B OWRING (who was very indistinctly heard, in ti ot : e quence of th e confusion which prevailed in the eh i l l it e) moved for a return of the state of our trade in kr. UME suggested to his Hon. Friend that, in bed better for a return of the state of trade in China , he lion move for returns of all the orders and regula ltride made wi t h respect to that trade. Th ose d ocumen t s ha t t h e y promised to the House two sessions ago, e Y had not yet been laid upon the table. It was v aisle that they s h ou ld h a ve the orders and regula- Well 4)n s with as reference to that trade laid upon the table, as 14 a return ef the state itself. he • WM. COLLETT begged to give notice that next, ou ld move th e f o ll ow i ng resolution on Monday e a "That, in the opinion of this House, there were pp Public works of greater importance to the future eii it s P er itY ot Irel an d than railways, and that every fa j,lol,Bfor their co ns t ruct i on s h ou ld be g i v en by h e r Ma nbt • Go vernment, provided all proper securities were allied for repayment." ,ANDOVER UNION COMMITTEE. I tUME rose to ask the question of which he had Au nu notice. At the close of last session, on the 25th ti o „guet, he pl ace d certa i n reso l ut i ons on t h e ta bl e o f t h e Use ; and, in accordance with them, he asked the ay, "llBe to take certain measures regarding the Poor. belie onunission ers —(C r i es o t " H ear , h ear, ")— as h e red their continuan c e in office w o u ld b e d etr i men t a l ~._l 4L e public ser v i ce . H e w i s h e d now to as k the Secre tary of State for the Home Department, whether Govern ; iiet.have taken, or i nten d to ta k e, any measures re set ftlng the conduct of the Poor-law Commissioners, as e f orth in the evidence and resolutions of the Select a. t ! i tnittee on Distri ct A sy l ums, an d on the report and clene e of the Andover Union Committee- Sir a GE ORGE GREY said that the subject had un rrgone he h a d no d ou b t t h e requisite investigation, but e must ask the House permission to refuse answering 1 e question until the s t atement which his Right Hon. Friend had promised upon the law of settlement should have been made. TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIEMAN'S LAND. Lord MAHON d es i re d t o kn ow f rom t h e S ecretary of ' S tate it there had been any steps taken with reference to the question of the transportation of convicts t o V an 12sietnan Land. Sir GEORGE GREY said that the House were et" or w are that transportation to Van Dieman ' s Lan d had ICet 50 Spended for h a d a period of two years. The subject occupied the attention of the Government. On the 'text week be would be able to lay upon the table of th hense documents relating to the question, which would, was sure, satisfy the Noble Lord. __ H __ AND UN ION OF THE SEES OF ST. .ASAP BANGOR. Mr, COLLETT said he wished to ask a question °l'. the First Lord of the Treasury in reference to the %Ilion of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. The Bishop LP. Asaph an d Bangor had died, and a new Bishop tae sees appointed to the s e e , i nstea d o f a un i on o f having taken place. Now, the question h er h.e had to ask was, whether it be the intention of itr Majesty's Government to create an extra bishopric, 14the a ppointment of a Bishop of Manchester, the sees .' Asaph and Bangor not having become united at the death of the late Bishop of St. Asaph, pursuant to the A ct 6 an d 7 Will. IV., c. 77. Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The House would recol :e,,,t that when the Noble Lord the Member for Shrop tre (Lord Clive) had asked last session what cours.. aGovernment would take with respect to a Bill nt down from the House of Lords for uniting tk e two sees o f S t . A sa ph an d B angor, w he - Government would support th e crea t ion Rus sell) Bishop to the see of Manchester, he (Lord John d ' u ssell) had said that the subject w as one which re ; %tired further consideration, and that the Government !puese net prepared to give its assent to . the Bill ith l d n ra c w on n nce of that assurance the Bill was w .d 1 4 1 matter had since undergone the consi eration. o - "„ 11 ' he oftrusted that he should be able, in the d u rse next week, to state the course which the note proposed to pursue. He found upon refs.! 4 e D e to the Act of Parliament regulating the bishopric t a li utt ngor, that the bishop of that see was not to ut.d.=.r -o the duties of the neighbouring see of St. Asaph, Iml egs h he was willing of himself to do so—hitherto he ad declined. b. EMIGRATION TO THE MAURITIUS. h HOYE wishAi to know whether any alteration s ilu been mad e since the period when Lord Stanley was na teret all' of the Colouies with reference to the arrange vaento for promoting 'emigration to the Mauritius. He rei t ,given to un d erstan d t h at if those emigrants tht;necl from the Mauritius within fir e years, Aish wo uld be ch a r ge d for their v o y age . H e st r Z s e ,u, therefo re , to k now w h et h er t h e ab iu 7 1 ,'' of the d ispatches wh i ch had b een pu b lished t o "",e rinies was correct, and whether the regulations toil w eich he re f erred had been imposed , on those per taewile had b een i ntroduced i nto th a t - colony, under mColonial Secretaryship of Lord Stanley? ink AWES thanked the Hon. Geotleman for hay qu-extlitttuated to him that he intended to ask these h. -""s•—(11ear, hear.) As the dispatches to which Ino v i r "red were not then in his pss h s e, ~1 11.4 to speak from ree 'llea on. He n ' 'tt in the course of a few days, to t. ould 11 th e ioe, d table of the House, and they would be lay theta jec t 1 , 0 furnish all the information on the sub - tle the Honourable Gentleman required. th, e ol , l state, however, that no ordinance, but simply to e "'cis Of one had been transmitted to the Govern bir th e Al, • • auritius. tendilloPE wi s h e d to know whether, previou,l) • to erdi " ``g out wh a t h e did not ch ,racterise as an :set auce, but as an order, of the house, the concur res o B o th h e a lndian Gov ernment had been obtatned with Re ( 4 1 22' HAVES thought it r i g ht to state that the con utin'eerlee of t h e Indian Government had not been ..13- kti. They diss ente d to some parts of the documents. sati"kdß A OGG said th e I ndian authorities were quite with e t‘ne id s pir of the dist ate,. 'the er e tllsrely in th the light s of sug it g.stion s f or t h e considey - ivti of the Government or the Mauritius, and it was -- 1., . ;A:" ' - ~ ~ , Tf"..`. , ' - ' , 41 THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORN ! understood that they should not come into operation until they came aerein under the review of the Home Govern ment. i Mr. HUM 7 wished to ask whether it was the inten tion of the Geyer. meet to pi °duct any papers relative to the branch list? The HOD. FOX MAULE said he had ne objection in about ten days to do so. NAVIGATION .LAWS. On :he m •tioe for the order of the day, Mr. mucHELL said hi. ewisider'd that there should be an ext, n,ioil of lit navigation laws, anti that any ship having proved that silo had soled On the Ist id September. should be admitted into this country. No vessel coming from Archangel would come into this country unless such were the case. for under the present circumstances no merehant from that port. would ship for this couetry. Let tnem take ti:e other ports, and they would find the same would he the case. Ile thotight that the Nobl.- L •rd berore the end of she present session would have to propose alt extension of the navigation laws. He was eu4e convinced that neither from the Black tier the White Sea would there be any chance of vessels sr riving before the Ist of September, and few would sail to English ports, unless they had some assurance th they would be admitted after that date. He would be glad it - the G .verument would consider the question, and relax the resolution to seine extent. Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said that perhaps before the Chancellor of the Excht quer answered the questions of the Hon. Member for Bridport, he (Mr. Stafford O'Brien) might be permitted t., put one having some re lation to the same subject. By the Act passed last session the duty was to be remitted in 1849, or only a nominal duty of is. per quarter imposed. Now he wished to knew whether the duty was to be altogether rescinded, and if so, whether the Government intended to take any steps to ascertain what quantity of :corn would be im ported into the country ? - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he would answer the last question first. It was the intention of the Government to suspend all duty on corn after September, 1849 ; and the Government still pro posed to register the quantity introduced into the ports to-morrow. With regard to the question of his Hon. Friend the Member for Bridport, it was the intention and effect of the Act, that ships must enter the parts of England before the Ist of September, and this period was fixed in order to give time to ships load• ing at the most distant ports to arrive in this country. Corn imported from the Black Sea, from the mouths of the Danube and Odessa, would require only two months to arrive in this country, and vessels sailing therefore in June or July would have ample time to arrive in England before the pelod referred to in the Act. His own impression was that a great quantity of corn exported from the countries he mentioned would start in the mouths of May and June to this country, and all of whi c h m i g h t be fairly expected to arrive in this country before the Ist of September. The Corn Bill was then forwarded through its re maining stages. On the motion that the Navigation Bill be read a second time, dr. HUME said that it had been his intention to give notice that he should move that this Bill should be a general and immediate repeal of these laws, but, as he understood that his Hon. Friend near him had given notice that he should move for a Committee to in quire into the navigation laws, he should do so ; and he trusted that in that Committee all matters with refer ence to them would be settled satisfactory. Dr. BOWRING wished to ascertain if the Govern ment had consented to grant that Select Committee? Lord JOHN RUSSELL, whose reply was inaudible, was understood to answer in the affirmative. The Bill was then read a second time. The House then went into Committee on the Naviga tion Bill. The first clause was read and agreed to. On the sec .nd clause being read, Mr. MITCtIELL moved that the words "on and after the Ist of September" should be omitted, and that the Act should extend to all vessels which should be proved to have embarked with their cargo on or before the Is: of August. The amendment having been put, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the great object of Government in proposing the present Bill in sus pension of the navigation laws, was to obtain an early supply of corn. He thought if any alteration were to be made, it ought to be an earlier day ; be could not, therefore, support the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bridport. Dr. BOWRING thought that the suggestion of the Hon. M. mber would tend to give effect to the measures of her Majesty's Government, rind he should therefore support the amendment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not wish, at the present moment, to express any general opinion upon the navigation laws. He was not quite sure whether it would not be better to take an earlier date. By the next harvest they should get corn in large quantities, but what they wanted before that time was the greatest possible amount of grain, and he apprehended by the Ist of September. the day originally named, they should be enabled to get into this country great quantities of grain. Sir C. NAPIER said the statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exehequer was all very well, but supposing a vessel sailed from Odessa on the Ist of July, the ordinary passage being two months, but when it arrived at Gibraltar it encountered an east westerly gale, and was prevented from reaching this country till the Ist of September, what was to become of the owner of the ship and his cargo ? Sir W. CLAY deprecated the plan of affixing a cer tain date fer the completion of an uncertain operation. The owners of vessels, although they took all reasonable means to ensure their arrival here within the specified period, might, from the uncertain period occupier' in the voyage. be unable to arrive here within the specified period. The passage from the Black Sea occupied two months, and before the corn produced, for instance, in the extreme parts of Russia, during the ensuing harvest, could be conveyed to the shores of the Black Sea for importation, the Ist of September might have passed by. It they passed such a provision, they would ultimately have to alter it. Mr. FOSTER complained that the measure did not go tar enough, and considered that the laws relating to the importation of sugar and mo lasses, ought to have been suspended as well as the laws relating to the importation of corn. The Noble Lord had proposed the abrogation of the penalties for using sugar and molasses in breweries, and, therefore, the course he (Mr. Foster) proposed seemed one which ought to have been adopted, in order to benefit another portion of the people. He certainly, therefore, thought that the same principles which had induced the Government to suspend the navigation laws with respect to corn would apply with still,greater force to sugar, as far as it was now imported. Mr. HOWARD DOUGLAS would certainly stre nuously oppose any alteration in the navigation laws, because he thought that these laws were among the wisest of this country, and they should not be interfered with, but strictly preserved. Mr. WIVI. BRO o N said the consequence would be that, if vessels were allowed to arrive here after the Ist of September, there ;would. be no security against deception, and he hoped that the Government would not censent to make laws to deprive them of the advantages which they at present enjoyed under certain regulations. Mr. BARING said, gentlemen were not aware that in all these cases there was a discretionary power vested in the Treasury, and if it could be fairly proved to them that to op et the ports would be an advantage, they would cer ainly exercise that discretionary power. Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to think that by limiting the suspen sion of the laws till September it would force foreign countries to send forward their supplies. He might rest assured, however, that all available stores would be sent here without delay. The whole difficulty appeared to him to be the want of shipping. lie believed that all vessels were employed, and under these circumstances he considered that every facility should be given that vessels might come in with the greatest possible expedition. He was of opinion, therefore, that this would be best secured by a further extension of the period of suspension. Mr. LIDDELL would offer nu opposition to the mea sures of ;he Government. He thought they were about to pursue a course which was calculatsd to meet the emergency of the times, and for that reason they should receive his support. He would not take so discursive a view of the question as the Honourable Member for Liverpool had, and regard the measure as a wedge by which it was intended to break away the navigation laws. He would look at it as a measure intended to meet the distress which pre vailed through the country, and for this reason would give it his support. The Hon. Member for the Pot teries had intimated that he intended to bring the navigation laws under the consideration of the House. If so, he hoped that timely notice of his intention would be given to those interested in them, fur he believed that their shipping was the bulwark of the country, and their commercial marine the source of their great prosperity. He had reason to believe that the opinions of those who occupied the chief position among the shipping interests were quite opposed to the measure:: of the Government for the repeal of these navigation-laws. Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS, who rose with Mr. Dun combe, simply wis •ed to explain that he was not op posed to the suspension, but only to the repeal of the laws. Mr. T. S. DUNCOMBE believed that the object of the House at present was not to consider the advi• sability or non advisability of retaining the navi gation Laws, but whether they were to give effect to the measures which Government had proposed. The question was now whether they should maintain these laws inviolate, or sup .ort the proposition. which the Government had made. An Hon. Friend had moved an amendment, and the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and a late Chancellor of the Exchequer had both given their opinions upon the measure. For his own part he believed that the measure would not be complete without the amendment of his Hon. Friend. Some time had been propesed for the conclusion of the suspension, but they had no authority for supposing that it would net be opposed. The Ist of September had been proposed as the proper time, but, on whose authority, or for what reason, was not stated either by the mover or seconder of the propose tion. If eiteer of the gentlemen behind him, or those who sat on the opposite side, gave an assurance that they would not oppose the proposition, then the House would utidencand the position in which it was placed. This a .me individual advised Ministers that corn must go down, and yet in spite of this ad vice it actually did go up. Now, who was that individual? Tee Committee had heard the opinion of two gentlemen connected with the mercantile and ship tan;.; interest in that House, and he was inclined to plaee confidence in that opinion, because he had heel d reeson founvh d in common sense or justice acne it sheuld he objected to.—(Hear, hear.) t e ed JOHN ;CUSS-LL was understood to say that should the contemplated contingency embraced by the amendment arise before the Ist of September, the mea sures would be prepared to meet it. This would show that Ministers desired to do their best under I he circum stances. He could not venture to go further in his promise. Lord G. BENTINCK was not disposed to press the amendment, because he was quite sure the Government would do what was right. In his opinion it mattered little whether the navigation laws were suspended at this period or not. He ;bought an erroneous impression had got abroad, that they had lost opportunities of importing coi.siderabie quantities of corn from the United States of America, from the existence of the navigation laws and the 4s. duty, and that in this respect France had recently had considerably the advantage over England. Now this impression was certainly not borne out by the im portation returns of the United States of America from the Ist of Sept. last till the 22d of Dec. The returns re lated to the ports of New York, New Orleans and Bos • ton. Now the importations of corn from these ports to France during the period ho had named were 65,000 quarters of every description, while those to Great Britain and Ireland amounted to no less than 526,000 quarters. He thought from that state ment the House and the country would see that Ministers had committed no great •rime against the people of Ireland in not having exhibited greater haste to suspend these laws.—(Hear, hear.) He believed neither the navigation nor the corn laws had anything to do with the exports of grain to France and Great Britain. Respecting the supply of corn for France from Odessa, a very high authority among the political economists, the Economist newspaper said great ad vantages had been bestowed on France through the operation of the navigation laws ; and that no less than fifteen ships belonging to foreign nations, princi pally Neapolitan and Greek, were loading there with cargoes . of corn for Marseilles. The infor mation of the Economist on this subject, he believed to be incorrect, as it appears the names of some of the ships which were given, were the Barbeck, the Hydriot, the Cleope, the Newton, the Maria Theresa, and the Fire Fly ; and the last in the list was the Dicky Sand—(Laughter)—names that would indicate the vessels were more likely load iog for England than France.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.") If he might be allowed to throw out a suggestion to the Noble Lord, it was to extend the same principle to British as to foreign vessels, as by this short Act British ships would be left under a disadvantage, being obliged to have three-fourths of their crew British sailors. There were other restrictions that should be removed. British shipowners complained that, in competing with foreign shipowners, they were obliged to take a certain number of apprentices. He would suggest to his Noble Friend to take these matters into his serious consideration, to place British shipowners on an equal footing with foreign shipowners, and to suspend all laws that operated to produce a difference as far as it was possible for him to do so.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. DUNCAN considered that it would be impos sible that any vessel loading in the Black Sea in June or July could reach this country in time to avoid the infraction of the law; and merchants and shippers, knowing the risk, would not adventure their capital. Mr. MOFFATT thought that no harm would result from the following out the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Bridport. Mr. EWART disclaimed the doctrime propounded by the Hon. Member for Bath, that they should leave the matter in the hands of the Government. Some means should be adopted to allow the entrance of ships which had taken in their cargoes before a certain fixed period. Mr. MITCHELL wished to say a few words in answer to some observations which fell from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman reckoned the voyage from Odessa at two months, under ordinary circumstances. He (Mr. Mitchell) was aware that it was a three-and-a. half months voyage. He had not heard any satisfactory argument against the course which he had proposed. Mr. BROTHERTON thought the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bridport a very reasonable one, and the principle it involved was a fair one as it regarded these foreign arrivals. Mr. COLLETT—One additional reason for agreeing to the amendment would be that vessels arriving after the day would be liable to a duty of four shillings. ' The House then divided, when there appeared— For the amendment Against it • lBB Majority -138 The remaining cliusei were then agreed to, the House resumed, and the Bill went through its remaining stages. SUPPLY. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the House then resolved itself into a Com mittee of Supply pro forma, and a resolution was agreed to, granting supplies for the use of her Majesty. The report was ordered to be brought up on Monday next. THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.-SUGAR, MOLASSES, the brewers to resume their consumption of malt. If it had been admissible to use plain sugar in breweries, considering the present high price of malt, there would not have been any necessity to raise the price of beer, a circumstance which was to be regretted in an article which was so extensively used by the labouring classes. Even in ordinary times, the measure, he was persuaded, would prove of great benefit to all parts of the United Kingdom. In the present state of the country, and the high price of malt, he believed that had the use of sugar been allow e d. t h e i ncrease in the price of ber would not have taken place. Recently the price of malt was 84s. per quarter, it had risen to 88s., and he was informed last night by a friend that it had risen as high as 90s. Taking it, however, only at 84s, the price of sugar was 475. per cwt. N 180Ibs. of sugar, at 475. per cwt., cost 755. 6d., and will produce a quantity of beer equal to that yielded by a quarter of malt; so by the substitution one advantage would be gained, equal to the extent of 6s. upon every barrel of strong beer. At the present moment, therefore, the effect of the mea sure would be to have a considerable quantity of sugar to be used in breweries and distilleries, and the tendency would be to reduce the price of beer and to increase its consumption by the people. It was not his be lies that there would be. in ordinary times, if this measure was permanent, a competition between sugar and malt. If they took 625. a quarter, the price of malt in ordinary years, there could not be a successful competition between that article and sugar, unless the latter was 353. per cwt. lie was fully persuaded that while the measure would have a tendency at the present time of liberating a considerable amount of grain for malting, cheapen an essential article of consumption, it would exercise no injurious influence on the growers of barley.—(Hear, hear.) It was his intention, therefore, to introduce a proposition that brewers should be allowed to use duty-paid sugar in brewing. With regard to molasses, he was not pre pared to make the same concession as in the case of duty-paid sugar. He found that all the Acts which had passed upon this subject prohibited the use of molasses, and although sugars had been permitted to be used in the process of brewing, the duty on molasses was at present ss. 3d., and it was generally as sumed that 2521b5. of molasses was equal to a quarter of barley. Assuming, therefore, that 252 lbs. of molasses was equal to a quarter of malt, they a ould require to impose a duty of 9s. Bd. instead of ss. 3d. It was very easy to say they did not know which article ought to be allowed to the brewers, for there were various articles which the brewers were prohibited from having, but they allowed them to have a certain quantity of molasses. It would be very difficult to distinguish between that which they had allowed to them and that which had not paid the Excise duty. It would be indispensably necessary, in order to protect the interest of the revenue, to establish those minute surveys of brewers' stock which had been discon tinued for so long a time, but it was not necessary that any regular survey should take place in order to prevent this evil, as it would certainly cause a great loss to the brewers. Therefore he did not think it would be a boon of any great value to the West India sugar manufac turers. It must also be observed, that the process of the manufacture of sugar was daily improving, and the consequence of that improvement was a diminution in the quantity of molasses; and also the greater quantity of rum that was produced the less the quantity of mo lasses, and therefore greater facility would be given to the West India planters by the introduction of rum and sugar. He then came to the question of distilleries. By the law at present sugar might be used in distilleries, at least it was lawful for any distiller to give notice that he intended to distil from sugar, but it was incumbent upon him that some time should elapse between his distillation from sugar and from grain. He could not use them nor distil from both at the same time. It was necessary to make this arrangement for the sake of the revenue, as, with a due regard to its interests, it was impossible to allow corn and sugar to be used together in distilleries. He believed that he should command the assent of every gentleman in that House, when he said that spirit was an article on which it was fair to raise the maximum amount of duty. No one was anxious to extend-the consumption of spirits, and the only risk in raising the duty was the risk of incurring illicit distillation. In this country, the present duty being 7s. 10d , illegal distillation was barely kept down, but in Ireland it was impossible to maintain a high duty, in consequence of the many facilities for defrauding the revenue. Various attempts had been made to obtain a larger amount of revenue than that which was obtained at present; they had, how ever, failed, and the present result had been found, after considerable experience, to be as high as consistent with out encouragieg illicit distillation. And, therefore, considering the vast amount of money which accrued to the revenue from the duty on distillation, Gentlemen would see that it was of essential importance that they should not suffer it to be diminished.— (Hear, hear.) There were three periods in the process of distillation, in which the spirit was raised in price and it was in the option of the revenue to choose which they preferred, and which would be most favourable to the revenue. One of those tests was entirely lost by the process of the distillation of sugar. Thus the officers would be reduced to two tests, and it was their opinion, as far as their experience went, that it would not be safe, considering the interests of the revenue, to allow both sugar and corn to be dis tilled together. But this was not all; it was the opinion. of some of the most extensive distillers in this country, that molasses and sugar could nut be profitably worked together, or, in other words, that they should be kept separate. Mr. Smith, in his evidence, said that he thought that molasses or grain could not be fermented with advantage together, as it would occa sion an abso-ute loss by perfect fermentation. Other evidence to the same effect was read by the Right Honourable Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the purport of which was that they did not think it would be advantageous to use corn and molasses together. The Right Honourable Baronet went on to say that they never did so when they had the power, and they never would ; he did not think therefore that any real advantage could result from a e pro iv• -ion for the use of molasses with corn. The real ! objection to the use of molasses and sugar in distilleries ' was the large amount of duty levied upon . them before tie y could be used. That objection he pro posed by the present measure to remove, and practically tree he proposed to allow the use of sugar duty for distillation ; practically so, at least, except to this extent. He would levy an amount of duty from the spirit equivalent to that at present levied upon malt. In England the distillation of spirits was effected from a mixture of various sorts of grain, in these proportions—two parts of malt, two parts of hops, and eighteen parts of barley ; or to make that appear clear to the House he would give them these quantities, 2 quarters of oats, 2 quarters of malt, and 18 quarters of barley ; that would be a mixture of grain suited for the purposes of distillation. Now, it was evident that the duty had to be levied in two different wa y s —first, it was levied upon the spirit, the produce of that distillation, and it was also levied upon the the spirit was pr o d uce d . What h e proposedmalt from which the do was this —that a certain rate of duty should be levied 'upon spirits, the produce of sugar or, molasses, equiv a l en t to the duty at present levied upon spirtts the p ro d uce o f malt and grain. t e e , with the duty at present payable .iipsonan d he The mode in which he proposed to effect h t is h believed it was free from objection—was S distiller should take his sugar t ; h — e tha w t a t r h e e . house upon paying the duty; that he e top aY the purpose of distillation, and that when be ~ _ wanefrom should use it for the spirit duty, he should have an ll° that spirit duty equivalent to the B en the sugar tween the duty which he had paid difference be so taken from the warehouse, and that malt. Now Now that, ac uPnich he would have beee called upon to pay upon esa.••• i n previous cording to the calculation usually adopted was equiva- Acts, is Is. 2d. per cwt. upon sugar, whichedin distilleries. lent to the duty paid upon malt used Consequently, he would have an allowanc e • 't w sch was °r drawback drawback of 12s. 10d. on the quantity of spirit lased to be produced from oue in this o f sugar. which would leave that d P hsundirr.ted weight situation—that it would be relieved from all the duty paid upon sugar, and would have paid c The uanll dountymeatiu.ivalent beer slid au o d n to that which would have been . paid distinction between the duties uP was 1 duty spirits was this—that the the fact ; so that e was the raw material in the case of beer, but in the brewing of beer, case of spirits the very revers e was the spirit t s w . as pro in the case of malt requ i r e d o a larger E chequer, which, if no Imposed amount of revenue than on . &Iced to the on the raw material,x would be lost. Eleven and a half lda bety.e dded ro te ga llons of spirit were produced wouu from eight cwt. of suga r , nti Thi uct s mifghtmtahe spirit duty payable on that q k and, therefore , 12s. but he trusted explain he mad e his statement perfectly so me little time to exin clear. — ( Hear s hear.) Th e this, that a drawback of 12 s . 10d . result was simply If gallons. All sugars, with would be allowed on e ver y the exception of Muscovado, which paid a d uty of 145., would have paid would enjoys so l ent, as the present low duty a differential duty on their importation; therefore. our colonies co ntinued, en advant age over foreign possessions which produced sugar. He did in one of t h e not think it necessary to , go into detail. The pre sent price of barley was stated Price Currents to be 545., but he beli eve d that was below was as h ig h as 63s , but s below the present rate , and sugar he 54s;rices and would, therefore, at 33s e he took it which was the presentsuccessfully ith barley if it continued compete at the a week ago, ofotye3aOrss:, and gUgai was which it was price at considering But looking back at a series . was at a Price that when rum be did not think then as low as 18s., and there would be the slightest competition betwee n barley and sugar. When there was a ris e in sugar, and a full in the price of barley, or a rise in the price of barley, and a fall in the price of sugar; there could be no competition. • • He believed that the advantages of distilling from corn was so great that it could not be considered, that either sugar or molasses could be much interfered with. He did not think, therefore, that to distil from molasses would supersede the present system of distillation, and whatever small advantages might appear to result, lie did not think that it was of sufficient importance to warrant a distinct provision for molasses. He now arumo the duty on rum ; the duty upon Colonial last ye ar was 9s. 6d. Many attempts, at any rate more than one attempt was made to reduce the amount of that differential duty, but they were always resisted by the di st i llers and others who considered their interests would be injured by the reduction. Last session of Parli ament he felt satisfied- that the arrangement then made, was such as ought to have met the wishes of all parties. He considered that it was such as to meet the wishes of both parties, in this country and the West Indies. But he found that the remission was not s ue as to give satisfaction to the distillers of the West Indies. These representations were made in the strongest terms, and the remission they asked was Is. 44d, He believed AND RUM. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER, the House resolved itself into Committee to consider the recommendations in her Majesty's Speech with respect to temporarily suspending the penalties im posed on those using sugar and molasses in their breweries and distilleries. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose to bring forward the propositions of the Govern ment. He said he proposed now to state the measure which her Majesty's Government had resolved to submit to a Committee of the whole House with reference to sugar, molasses, and rum. The House last night and the preceding night seemed to entertain some misapprehension as to the exact recommendations in the Queen's Speech. He certainly thought that no misapprehension could have existed in the minds of Hon. Members with respect to these recom mendations, especially those having reference to the temporary suspension of the corn and navigation laws as the rep..al of the duties on the corn-laws, after a limited period, received the sanction of the House last session. The navigation laws were those to which the greatest im portance attached, as, except under no ordinary circum stances, could a suspension of those laws take place with safety. A similar remark might apply, with equal force with respect to the measure which he was now about to propose to the House ; but Hon. Gentlemen would recollect what took place at the close of last session— that the Government considered that further reductions ought to be made.—(Hear, hear.) He, therefbre, rose in pursuance of the intentions entertained by her Majesty's Government at the close of the last session, for the express purpose of proposing a further reduction of those duties which they considered, at diet period, ought to be modified.—(Cheers.) Mea sures of considerable importance were passed at the close of last session, reducing much of the protection which the West and East Indies had previously enjoyed against foreign competition—a course, the adoption of which, be thought, was calculated to produce the greatest advantage to this country. A reduction had been made in the duty on molasses, rum, and sugar, of from Is. 6d. to Is. In making these reductions consideration was had not only to the public benefit, but also to the revenue. It was with a view to this point that measures had been proposed last session. No one was more fully alive to the advantages of what were called the doctrines of free trade, but it was impossible to apply it fully to all the different circumstances that might arise. The produce from the Customs was a million and a half. It was impossible to raise a con siderable portion of this without indirect taxation. It might be in the recollection of Hon. Gentlemen, in the statement that had been made on the sugar duties, that the prospects for the ensuing year were not very favourable. It was calculated that there would be a deficiency of between 300,0001. and 400,000 L Now, up to the present time the increase in the reve nue exceeded the most sanguine expectations. The balance sheet showed a considerable increase. With regard to the Customs duties there was an increase in every article, except in those the duties on which were remitted last session. There was a considerable increase on sugar and corn. He was of opinion the present state of the country was not such that they could not expect the revenue to be much improved. The great want of food, the high price to which it advanced, and the con , sequent effects upon the population, should make all con siderations in regard to revenue to b e put aside. It afforded the Government, therefore, considerable satisfaction to know that they had done all in their power to reduce the price of corn, and to relieve this great pressure on the people. In like manner the produce of the Excise s ble,l considerableaasntd. which Thha i eeh n xc coi t et h s s i ncreaseis rs o etehd u s esanietiti possessed. iunn u gs p t neryaec t asetttedhh such 0 10th uweahs ae so con siderable, 0-f e w i October d a s e e e e x e ce su ed rep w a h o a n t powerslo th o o f f E October, nhx ettihaaiess ho kac aodunwf forerunnerta r ev l yle e aa r, no d t f f he oi considerably,nrf h e ws what aott lbemanei might been at and T g b rehe The pri c e npocerrhi might g eo e Th e Excise take 1 every e t eex p ecte d commodity was very high, and no other opinion could be formed, but that this must have an injurious effect upon the revenue of the country. He did net anticipate that this commercial activity would be likely to continue so long as to ensure the revenue which had been already obtained. Under those circum stances no Government could possibly provide against the deficiency which was likely to occur, nor could the same results arise as his Noble Friend had predicted. H e did not th i nk he should be justified in calculating upon those results in the measure: which had been submitted to the House, or that in consideration of the revenue he should suffer these duties to be abolished. He would now turn to the measures which he intended to propose, and the first subject was the request which had been made by the brewers for sugar and molasses to be used in breweries as well as in distilleries. According to the present state of the law the use of sugar and molasses was not prohibited, although there was some difficulty in adopting it as a substitute for malt. In the measures which he proposed to submit to the House he was quite ready to allow the substitution of sugar in breweries, for al it mattered little thedered equivalent two su b stances was em uarter of malt was 21s. Bd., which yi t c i e t h e d revenue quantityTke d awt yhwas h e a oo esif q uarter 225. 6d. Ile did not believe that s ug ar would dis p lace malt, because it would never b e the interest of considered to 1081bs was . of sugar, the ditty upon which the brewer to dispense with the use of malt, and unless the price of ncalt rose to an extravagant height, it was impossible that its consumption co uld o d f e c a r o e g a a s r e , e to o anykcto,n wouldsi considerable b k l e e doesgedreei.a breweries large g :5; t omi quantity x with the li qu or pr o duced from malt, and hence the opera tions of the brewer would be much facilitated, and very likely extended. This must naturally lead to a reduction in price, increased consumption, and thus tend to prove to the interest and increase the trade of the gro er of barley. Within the last few weeks the price of barley had risen to a great extent, and the re sult was brewers suspended their malt opera , tions, hut shortly afterwards the price of beer was raised one penny per pot, and this enabled I-NG, iiANUNIty _23, that under all the circumstances, the probable claim had been made out for 9d. or 10d.; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer of that period had not thought it ad visable, from the state of the revenue, to grant the remission, and he should, be believed, meet the jus tice of the case by making the differential duty Is. and 6d. This would give a difference of 6d. to the foreign prcduce. The House was aware that the duty was the same in the three countries of England, Ireland, and Scotland. A favour was shown to Ireland and Scotland, and rum bore a less duty in those two part , or the United Kingdom, than when introduced into England. In England the duty was 7s. 10d., in Scotland 3s. Bd., and in Ireland, 2s. Bd. He proposed to equalise the duty.—(Hear. hear.) A paper had recently been laid before Hon. Members, which would afford them every information upon the subject, and if they would just take the trouble to refer to the 48th page of that paper they would find an account of the ruin consumed in Scotland. In Scotland the amount had been reduced from 43,000 gallons to some few 7,000 or 8,000, while in Ireland, from the commencement of the present century down to the present day the con sumption had fallen off from 1,000,000 gallons to only some 12,000. Ile thought this sufficiently made out a case for the reductions he was about to propose. Now he proposed that ruin should be suffered to be imports d into Scotland at a duty of 4s. 2d., and into Ireland at a duty of 2s. 2d. ; but he also proposed that some differ ence should be made in the duties on spirits dis tilled in these countries, and ruin made in England. His impression was that the effect of these alterations would he that the consumption of rum would be in creased in the sea-port towns. He believed that the in troduction of a good wholesome spirit would prevent the manufacture of a spurious article. This introduction of a sound spirit would benefit both the producer and the consumer. No doubt grave objections might be urged against the inequality of the Custom duty as levied in different parts of the empire. Rum might be, for in- 1 stance bonded in an excise warehouse in Glasgow, and transmitted to any public warehouse in England by sea, but only by sea. These regulations he hoped would prevant smuggling, while at the same time he appre hended that the excise revenue would not suffer. On the whole, he did hope that this would be considered by the parties interested as a fair settlement of the question. He did not believe that he should gain or loose upon the balance of his proposition. 60,0001. was the amount be calculated he should loose on the reduc tion on the price of rum last year ; but the importation of rum during the last five months so increased that the duty was more than made up, and therefore he was con• vinced that the revenue would not be injured by the measures he had proposed. The price of sugar had been lower last year than during the preced ing one, and there was an increased import ation of rum, during the thirteen months end ing the sth December, 1845, was 655,000 gallons, and during a similar period, in 1346, it was 789,000 gal lons, making an increased consumption of 134,000 gal lons. This, of course, made up for the reduction of the duty on spirit, and he was sanguine enough to believe, that any further reduction in the price of spirit would greatly increase the consumption in Scotland and Ire land, especially in the seaport towns, the inhabitants of which were principally in the habit of consuming rum. But in point of fact the distillation of grain was almost completely stopped in Ireland. He held in his hand a letter from an Irish distiller, dated the 14th of January, which stated that by far the greater portion of barley which would be used would be foreign. Never theless, in the present state of circumstances there were additional reasons for the passing of these mea sures, and he hoped that the House would do so with as little delay as was consistent with a due consideration of them. (The Right Hon. Gentleman was almost in audible in the gallery, from the commencement to the end of his speech, so much so as to be repeatedly unin• telligible.) Lord G. BEN TINCK said that the great mastery which his Hen. Friend had displayed over his subject, and the clear and lucid manner in which he explained it, did not leave it in the power of any one to say that he could not understand it. The proposal of her Majesty's Ministers did not meet with the usual objections which he had so often stated to the House, namely, against the remission of taxes paid by foreign produce, in detriment to the British grower. There was another reason why he had not any great objection to passing the present measure, as, according to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, its tendency would be rather to increase than diminish the revenue. While they had heard a gloomy statement respecting one branch of the revenue, and considering the state of Ireland, it was some consolation to those friends with whom he acted, that those articles with which political economy or free-trade doctrines had not meddled, such as tea and tobacco, had yielded an increased revenue, which, had they trusted to the duty on the articles allowed by the free-trade tariff, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have come before them a bankrupt.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord George Bentinck) had said he was not then prepared to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman through all his details, and his friends (the Pro tectionists) wished more time to consider the measure. His object, therefore, in rising was to beseech the Right Hon. Gentleman to pass it as a temporary rather than as a perma nent measure. His (Lord George Bentinck's) friends had every desire to support the Government in every measure re garding Ireland, and though they might have some doubts as to the principle in the propositions for this purpose, they intended to throw no obstacles whatever in their way.—(Hear.) He trusted, therefore, that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) would, without prejudicing the policy which the Government might hereafter think proper to adopt, consent to pass the measure a s a temporary one, and at a later period of the session, when the affairs of Ireland were settled, come before the House and propose whatever for a permanent purpose they might think most advisable. His (Lord George Bentinck's) Right Hon. Friend, in speaking of the present high rate of malt, stated that ow! great brewer had suspended operations. If this were correct the effect of the high price was to diminish the consumption of barley, so that he could not see how the tendency of the present system would be to create a large consumption of grain for beer which might be used for food.—( Hear, hear.) The present malt tax was one which did not fall entirely on the consumer, as had been alleged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was equally divided —one portion of it was borne by the consumer, the other by the grower of barley. — (Hear, hear.) Th e o p era ti on o f t h e measure now propos ed in allowing sugar to enter into competition with barley in breweries and distilleries, would add one to the many other claims which the agricultural interest had before the Govern ment for the remission of the duty on malt and hops. The Right lion. Gentleman had told them that the present high price of malt had added a penny to the price of each pot of beer. If the Government world take the duty off malt, he (Lord Geo. Bentinck) was persuaded that not only would beer and ale be brought back to their old price, but would be sold for a penny a pot less than that. His reasons for consenting now to the present measure, were in order that they might, without delay, con a l der other measures rela tin g to Irelan d , without hindrance or obstruction. But he could assure the Noble Lord opposite, that if be was determined to make it a permanent measure, at the present time, he should be obliged to offer it every obstruction in his power. He, therefore, hoped that the Noble Lord would reconsider the ma tter, and consent to the cours e he ha d proposed. Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN said he had never been more dis appointed in any statement. He had hoped to hear how the proposed measure would increase the supply or food, and dimi nish the use of grain in brewing and distilling, but he had been disappointed. In fact some of his statements would lead them to infer that the tendency would be rather to increase t h an to diminish the use of grain.—( Hear, hear.) I t was clear to him that if mellasses were introduced, the effect would be to diminish the use of grain, and therefore a considerable amount of food f or t h e consumption, of ba tki n e e people lib rate the Rightsasaid he Hon. h a d G Gentleman I em sucha rI i th n e ctention.. Molasses c eo of were flreland therla not to but Exchequer,be introduced, but sugar was, in breweries. The same applied to distillers ; sugar was to be allowed, b u t not P molasses. The Right H on . G entleman, in s e aking of distil leries, further stated, th a t if ma l t was less in price than 545. a q v u e a r r e t , e t r h , e t r h e e f r o e r e toou expect be e e t a r no inedruycemmaetne material al to su use s ugar.f They the present measure. S uc h was the appalling s p t p atem ly ol err l If the Govei nment had really meant the measure to do some good, they should have allowed the use of both sugar and molasses in dis tilleries and breweries, and prohibited the u ti s t e of i altoge t e statement of t t h h e e r. Rig T h h t er H e e w n a . s G o e n n e t e p m o i a n n t connected interest wi to those con tnheecteendlywmithanlurfiasehtnaffreairast. pTrehseenptreisnenltremiaenar He ev i rould destroy e appealed to the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Callaghan) if it would not occasion the total annihilation of spirit_ making—(H ear, h ear) —seeing that it w as propose d to reduce the duty on rum from 9s. 4d. to 3s. 2d,, which was the new duty proposed. It was not his intention to go further into the subject to-night, a s h e was not fully p repare d to go into the detais • but he could not remain silent a ft er h ear i ng such a dangerous ' statement as had been m a d e b y t h e Right Hon. Gentleman.—( Hear. ) Mr. CALLAGHAN thought the measure would h ave the effect of stop p i ng t h e use of grain in distilleries generally in Ireland and Scotland, what would be its effects in Engiaiw would leave the protectionists and agriculturists to judge. He would be able, by a few simple arguments, to show that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not sufficiently considered the case. Let them take the article of spirits. The result of the present arrangement would be, that the difference between the duty on rum and whisky in Ireland would be only about 6d. a gallon ; and in Scotland, adding the duty on malt to that on spirits, the difference would only be lid. or 2d.—(Hear, hear.) Yet the Government proposed to allow the West India proprietor to use molasses for distilling, but would n o t a ll ow th e . En gl i sh an d Scotch distillers. Con sidering the vast amount of capital embarked in distilling, he could not but look on the present measure with dismay, as be believed it would have the effect of causing all these great establishments to be abandoned. Entertaining these views, he had been induced to address the House. Mr. BAN KES would occupy the House but a short time. He thought the measure would be introduced only as a temporary measure, rather than as a permanent one. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that it it would have been the intention of the Government under any circumstances to propose the measure. However that might be, considering the state of Ireland, he (Me. Bankes) prayed the Noble Lord at the head of the Government to pass the measure as a temporary measure. He knew that a strong feeling existed among the agricultaristsithat the malt-tax should be repealed. It was only yesterday that a most influential deputation waited on the Noble Lord praying for a remission of the duty in question, or at least a portion of the duty; and the Noble Lord also knows that considering the state of the country they consented to waive the matter for the present. Considering, therefore, that these parties consented to waive their claims, he trusted that the Noble Lord would also waive his intention of making the mea sure a permanent one, and only pass it for a time. No doubt there was a difference in the present question and one in which all the advantages went to foreigners : their colonies would, no doubt, benefit by the measure. Still, in order that it might be fully and calmly discussed, be hoped the suggestion of the Noble Lord the Member for Ly nn would be acceded to. b O e n ad th n e f te grounds G e v e h r e n m h a e d n t s t w a t n e n d l , he db hoped ave the no difficulty Noble i Lo rd n acting t at the head g he in • the manner mananeeterdtit Hear, hear. ) redebaythefriends with whom he (Mr. Bankes) Alr e . f G r p ar U lia L m ß e O nt U b ß e N ba s d aid t , th aken at e a n t the close himse of the last ses sionlf to advise adrisethn te gentlemen who were interested in their West India Col ,nies, to avoid taking any rash measures , or to throw their estates he out of cultivation. But in tendering that advice to them, sa e i r c e t hteet beinp considerationexposed commodity,competitionthe against of h nsta foreign te had it contem plation itnehare their p produce d t n o e e bring d. f m a o u r i r t w e t s e a d r w d e h , n i h e eh the thought G e v t e h r e n y in e had n t a would h them f n a i t t r e ly d to com Kingdomp e t e with other ters pr e ov wic in h ee h s, either () w t. ' in lay the Colonies particular obligations eloeiesn He feittherefore, that he now 'to support the suggested that there concess i on s which the Government proposed to g rant to t he co lonies. His Hon. Friend near him wer e interests in this country who had equally strong claims upon the Government, and e expressed a desire that the ar- 1847.. , . ...—.—. rangementa r ., - .. ~ Exchequer should be only:"l"Altpikin,She Chancellor' of the had a fair claim on the country, because in the last reitsion of Parliament, when their produce was exposed to great ornpe tition' there w as an i m pli e d pl e d ge g i ven th at t h e i r l c l a i ms would be conceded. The House must bear in mind thet they were not now for the first time discussing the question. I They were now only fulfilling the pledge given by the Right Hon. Baronet who eat opposite, namely, that the question should be fully considered next session. With respect to . the propriety of making this a merely temporary measure as his Hon. Friend had suggested, he (Mr. Goul burn) would wish to know to what period his Hon. Friend would have it extend ? (Here Mr. Bankes made some re mark, which was inaudible in the reporters' gallery.) His Hon. Friend said that it should be limited to the month of September next, but his Hon. Friend forgot that this was not a measure merely brought forward with a view to the relief of distress in Ireland. It would have been brought forward had no such distress existed; it was a pure! com mercial arrangement, consequent,ipon a ,revious_und tend ing, in order to deal justly with a i s re 1 34/lithe* Min 1 2 h t \ subjects..- (Hear, hear.) He Ys' -ePolSk lug l'filtro' of any commercial knowledge, , s ei a l eave aNil lt limited to the month of Septe ,yoeuriutP Riftl.,„„, culated to benefit any class of mellq . o gskftuistrtla e'llto and certainty were essential elements in 4.. " : , ti,,t i fr I r t n tions. What inconveniences would not .." .. . =VIM' nev that they enacted a law for the reduction of .:4!tit r " IVY in order to assimilate them with the duties ono'. or., " only to reconsider them again in the month cifidriPit He would ask them what would happen in the oreittest They would have a great deal of speculation in 11kfts,s1, mind. Persons would calculate as to whether Goys, would be strong enough to carry their measures, and to. would have a great deal of improper speculation, feundeo on current rumours, and information probably sledge(' to be received from some individual apparently connected with the Government. He did not believe that I there was any one who would have the hardihood to embark his ca pital in the manufacture of beer, or the importation of} rum. He could not conceive that any one wonli dare to venture their capital on the assurance of a law which would last at farthest only five or six months. He trusted that the Govern ment would take an enlarged view of the subject. It was a question for the House to consider whether the colonies were or were not entitled to share in the advantages afforded by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. After the pledge given during the last session— a pled g e ind uce d by th e com p et iti on to which their produce was subjected, as against the produce of other countries—he thought that the istate ment made by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite 'had been throughout so clear, comprehensive, and so ably ex pressed, that he (Mr. Goulburn) should only weaken the effect of that statement if he were to attempt to go through the argu ments. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that as regarded the admission of sugar into the distilleries of this country, an extravagant view was taken by the colonies of the benefits to be derived. He entirely concurred with the view that was taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman, that they should protect the revenue, not only because that was essential to the growers of sugar themselves, but to the country generally. With this opinion, he thought the introduction of molasses into distilleries and breweries would occasion a loss to the revenue, which fully juseified the Government in the course they were pursuing. At the same time, he thought that the colonies which manufactured it had a stronger claim to the remission of the duty on another article. The Right • Hon. Gentleman had just stated that sugar would not generally be introduced into distilleries unless there should be con currently a high price for malt, and a low price for sugar. He thought that this calculation could not be overthrown. But experience, also confirmed this view of the question. Experience had shown that the in troduction of sugar had not excluded barley or malt. It was well known that private brewers employed nearly three-eighths of all the malt in this country. Private breweries were not now confined to the houses of gentlemen, but they were con. ducted by persons who employed larg e bodies of men, and who I reserved a portion of their wages in r e tu rn f or thi s beer sup plied to them. These persons found it an object to brew for the smallest amount, and yet in no instance did he re member that sugar had been employed. He re collected Mr. Calvert was being examined before a committee of the House of Commons, and he stated that it was not admissable to use sugar in distillation. even if malt was 775. a quarter. He (Mr. Gonlbourn) was not prepared that evening to enter fully into the question of the remission of duty on rum, .because he had not expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have brought forward the subject, be thought rather that he would have confined himself to the subjects referred to in the Queen's Speech, and he was not prepared, therefore, with documents to enter into the particular amounts of differential duties which he proposed to lay on the produce of the colonies as compared with spirits distilled in Scotland and Ireland. He was aware that there was nothing more difficult than to ascertain what inconveniences one branch of trade might sustain by the application of certain measures to the other, and to reduce that inconvenience to a pecuniary value was, of all other things, the most difficult. He would therefore con. tent himself with merely giving his assent to the proposal of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the presealt occasion, and he would reserve to himself the right of expressing his opinion more fully when the question was brought before them in an after stage. Generally, however, he might say that in this case he fully believed that the Right Hon. Gentleman bad taken a course which was just as regarded the colonies, and politic as regarded the interests of this country, because it fulfilled a pledge given in the last session of Parliament. Mr. WODEHOUSE begged to remind the Noble Lord that all these measures had tended to put off to an indefinite period the consideration of the repeal of the malt .tax, and therefore the House must be reminded that the situation of the growers of barley was most materially altered by the mea sures of last year. It was impossible to forget the great dif ference that was now attempted to be made as regarded the admission of foreign produce, and Government might be pre pared for remonstrances and resistances if a measure of this kind were to be brought forward, or if they attempted to extricate themselves from the difficulties of this period by making this a permanent measure. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he would lay before the House, in an intelligible form, the reasons which prevented him from giving the public a great boon by the admission of molasses? It appeared at all events, that the remission of duty on sugar would be inefficient to reduce the cost of brewing, and that the only article which would have that effect would be molasses, and that was shut up. He (Mr. Hume) desired to have some reasons shown, why they should not get rid of the Excise altogether, if they sSood in the way of a good to the people. Let the Right Hon. Gentleman give them something in a tangible form to con sider, and they would then be enabled to say whether his reasons did cr did not justify him in the course he was pursuing Mr. FINCH said that the gentlemen of the county he be longed to, and he believed English gentlemen generally, were incapable of forming a sound judgment on this question, and he considered it was rather taking the House by surprise to bring forward this question, and to ask Hon. Members to con firm this measure, before giving them an opportunity of form ing an opinion upon it. If this were the case with English llembers, it was even more difficult for Irish and Scotch Mem bers to agree to a measure classing the duties on rum with the duties on British spirits, when they were not aware that the sub ject was to be brought forward that evening with respect to the colonial interest, he felt that they ought to be promoted in any way. He felt that those interests had been shamefully sacrificed. He felt that no part of the British dominions was so negleeted as the colonies. But it struck him that this was no question merely of the English colonies, for it interested all foreign countries and colonies. He had read, not long before, in a paper, of the arrival of three ships with Brazilian sugar, and it stated that further arrivals were expected, and the article concluded by expressing a hope that Brazilian sug a r would be extensively use d i n t h e di stilleries. He would not say that the agriculturalists of this country intended to oppose the measure. All he said was, that they ought to have had some time to consider it. Mr. D. BARCLAY said that he would not dwell on that part of the question which related to the distress in Ireland. He deeply sympathised in that distress, but his object in rising was rather on b e h a lf o f t h e colonies. A pledge had been given by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the close of the last session of Parliament, and it was but just that that promise should be redeemed. He did think that Parliament, at the conclusion of last session, _had given a pledge that when the protection upon the produce of the West Indian Colonies was abolished, and the protection which they had hitherto enjoyed was also withdrawn, that no restriction should be placed on their commerce with this country. He thought that this was simply a mere matter of right and justice, and one which ought not to enter into any political consideration. The imposition of a duty on sugar in Jamaica, was just the same thing as the levying of a duty in England. What would the Noble Lord opposite say if it were to be seriously just nor right that the restriction on the com merce of the West Indies should remain when the protection on their produce was removed. His Right Hon. Friend only opposed the measure because it was to be only of temporary effect, but he thought that the colonies ought not to be thus subjected to such a capricious system of legislation. Their great distance from the mother country will prevent the mea sure, if it were of a temporary character only, from being of any use to the colonies; and he did not see why it should be limited to the first of September, He did hope that the dis tress in Ireland would not prevent the Noble Lord from doing justice to the West Indian colonies. Lord G. BENTINCK said the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), in the introduction of these measures, bad expressly stated that the : ground tor entering upon tnem was the distress that pervaded Ireland, and when he and the friends who acted with him, had agreed to assent to their passing, it was agreed, that his Noble Friend at the head of the Government should first settle the affairs of Ireland.— (Laughter.) He bad understood from the proposition of his Noble Friend that this was to be the foundation of their present proceedings, and he trusted that this dis cussion respecting the potato crop would not cause the calamity that had befallen Ireland to be forgotten ; but that the introduction of sugar into breweries and distilleries would not prevent the case of Ireland from being fully con sidered. From the speech of the Hon. Member for Cork, he was lead to believe that this measure of the admission of sugar into distilleaies, is not to be taken simply as a remedial measure for Ireland. His Right Hon. Friend had, in some respects, misrepresented, though most unintentionally, he was certain, the observations of his Friend behind him ; and when his Noble Friend, at the head of the Treasury, made his statement on Monday next, respecting the affairs of Ireland, he trusted that the circumstances would be made fully apparent, and the mode of relief that he intended to adopt. He could assure the Gentleman who had just sat down, that the Members on his side of the House were as deeply interested in the conservation of the colonies as he was himself. He begged to assure him that he and his friends acted in no spirit el hostility to the West Indian interests. Did his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, remember the evidence of Mr. Calvert, the brewer, before a Committee of that House? If he did, he should also recollect that since that time, that the cost of malt had risen from 75g. to Sit : whereas the duty on sugar had been reduced from 275 . per cwt. ; and the duty on slave grown sugars ha d be e to reduced h from 635. to 21s. The Hon. Gentleman asked ow he would like to have a tax imposed on corn; why, there was a tax of 4,500,0001. on agricultural produce.—(Hear.) Why, was not malt a portion of agricultural produce? And what would the Hon. Member for Manchesser , who had formerl y been a Member . for a county have thought if it had been at that time proposed to levy a tax on agricultural produce ? and how would be have conceded that which affected prices? When he asked this question, it should be recollected that, in fact, the introduction of sugar into breweries was neither more nor less than to occasion barley to be displaced. He thought it would have been better to have reduced the price of spirits. He found from the returns, that since the year 1823 the maximum of the consumption of spirits had been doubled. Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to interpose, and to re mind the Noble Lord of the increase o f the populati Lord G. BENTINCK continued.—Why , the co o n n s . umption had increased from 13,000,000 t o 26 ,000 6' 00 al lons a year, and if any Gentleman would only wa lk down Oxford-street or Holborn, and view the number of the gin palaces which were to be found there, he would 'ite agree with him that the re duction of the duty had doub led the consumption. Now w hat was the case with regard t o t h e consumption of beer ? It had not increased 25 per cent., although the population bad in creased far more than that. And that evidently showed that the consumption of spirits had increased at a greater ratio than the consumption of beer. His Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to desire that rum hould take the place of native spirit in Scotland. He hardly expected that re- 3 II N ~~1,1 • . -`•! . ~.. ----... —..._-.... suit, for he was not at all surprised alt any :one pref err i ng Glenlivet to rum. This was a formic:Ll ble qu es ti on , which he would recommend to the at a/Aims - of his Noble Friend. But still he would express a strong I N ojt o tet . 66: House would not allow their interests in the coo nies to inter pose before the affairs of Ireland ; and he beg - ged to assure him and the friends who acted with him on th at side of the House, while agreeing with this temporary me as• ere, he felt an anxious desire that it would not prevent an y remedial mea sures for the affairs of Ireland. Mr. P. BORTHWICK conceived that as 1 insurmountable i difficulty to the future prosperity of the colo Dies, would be in stituted if this measure were to be made the 1 , sandal ion of per , manent operations. For it had been justly observed by his Noble Friend the Member for Lynn ( Lord G. - Bentinck), there I were two sides of the question to be conside red ; there were the interests of the colonial producer, and the interests of the British consumer. When these measures were first introduced, it was with the express view of alleviating the 'distress of Ireland. .., But if they interposed these affairs of the. colonies, and made , hern the foundation of a permanent measure, h e did not h es i tate 1 to say that it would occasion the ruin of the West Indies. What woull be the consequences ? A merchant in the West ! Indies would ha ve i nves t e d hi s ca pit a l i n th e expectation of a cs -.sin return, and when his cargo arrived in England he I would r..,i that, through the conduct of the Pritish Parliament, it wa s render" nearly valueless. i Lord JOHN. ItI'sSELL wished to say a few words. in reply to his Noble Friend, vete_ had shown so much moder ation and such an absence of party Sp'.; t, at the commencemet it of this session, that he should be g.-4 t o grant any ceincession which w as cons i stent w i t h - .as public duty, and do anything that he could to 1,,, ft the ws , shes of the Noble Lord, an d o f t h ose who acted wit, him The N o bl e Lord seemed to have no objection to this as a. e rrop andosi t i noton, , mea sure. But since hi s Noble Friend had made th st.pca rare :pe that this measu re s h ou ld b e only a temporary meas.e a permanent measure, it appeared to him. that he had mixed up two subjects, the abrogation of the corn-laws, and the suspension of the navigation l aws . i If, therefore, they were to accede to the proposal of his l' , ohle Friend to continue the measure only for a few months or a 1 year, and hold out a prospect of its ultimately becoming per. manent upon the principle propounded by his Right Hoe. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it would be pre longing the doubts and anxieties which prevailed upon the question. It seetld give rise to a good deal of i nconvenience, atm might lead to a good deal of excitement, being got spin the country. He was, therefore, obliged to comes to the conclusion that it was hr better for P a ._ !lament to decide, whether the question should be pm manent or temporary. It was quite in the power of tie Noble Friend at any time to raise a discussion upon the pant af proposing a separate clause limiting the operation of the measure to a given period, then if the Hoase concurred sith him in opinion, the clause might be inserted in the Bill He, however, trusted that this would not be the result of the dis cussion • and although he f e lt muc h i n d e b ted to the Noble Lord and his party for the assistance they had affordel him, he could not help thinking that it would not be fair for them to raise any excitement upon this question. Lord G. BENTINCK said he had no desire ti get up any excitement on the question, and he would readily consent to take the opinion of the House upon his own proposal at a later stage of the Bill. Mr. B. ESCOTT said the Noble Lord, who had just. sat down, had long been an advocate of political economy, but recently the Noble Lord had evinced the discretion of an old. politician in his recent political contests. The Noble Lord, it seemed, was to be thefriend of the Noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, till the Irish question and all its difficulties were settled.—( Hear, hear.) When that day would be he did not pretend to tell ; but when it did come, he suptdosed the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn_ and the N o bl e Lord the First Lord o f the Treasury would not . be in the amicable intercourse which they now witnessed every night. With respect to the question immediately before the . House, after what had occurred last night and on previous nights, the course he ought to pursue was clear. Ile took the measures as the best Government could propose with the largest chance of carrying them. That better 'measures could be proposed ne one would pretend to deny, but he with others questioned whether they would be carried if those better mea sures were brought forward at the present time. The Noble Lord the member for Lynn had let out another secret for the benefit of the farmers. In the last session of Parliament the Noble Lord told the farmers that they would End compensation for the repeal of the corn-laws in the abolition of the malt tax. There had since been several gatherings throughout the country, as well as sumptuous dinners, at which the Noble Lord was an honoured guest, and at which the Noble Lord promised to secure the farmers the com pensation he had previously held out to them. It appeared now, however, that this conapensation was to be abandoned by the Noble Lord. This was somewhat strange, when it was remembered that the Noble Lord was the president of an anti-malt tax (ansociation, to which he (Mr- B. Escott) certainly had not been solicited to become a member. In fact, he could not help thinkine that the Noble Lord had sold the farmers just in the same way as he had got up a sham fight in their favour in the last session of Parliament, and now the promised compensation was to be put aside until some indefinite period. Now, he wished that the farmers of England should know what was going on. They were to have no compensation till the Irish question was settled, and when that moment arrived, the Noble Lord would be ready to attack the malt tat. Lord G. BENTINCK said, whatever opinion the Hon. and Learned Member for Winchester might entertain as to the duration of the friendship which existed between himself and the Noble Lord, the First Lord of the Treasury, he trusted as that friend ship had subsisted for many years, it would not he so easily broken up as the Hon. and Learned Member seemed to anti cipate. For his Noble Friend's private, personal, and political character he entertained the highest respect, while he no less admired his Noble Friend's political con sistency, and his own battles showed not, he trusted, that when he differed in political principle with his Nobles Friend, he might still be able to meet him in strong opposition without any interruption to their private friendship.—( Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Winchester had asierted that he was the president of an anti-malt tax association. He would not enter into any discussion upon that point, but he could assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he might rest perfectly satisfied that whatever society he ( Lord George 13entinck) might belong to, unless lie wished to have it be tra3ed, he would never invite the lion and Learned Gentle man to become a member,—( Hear, atid cheers. ) Mr. BROTHERTON was desirous of putting an end to this personal discussion and bringing the mind of , he Com mittee back to the subject immediately ender consideration. The returns e high had been so often alluded to during the debate showed that there were 27,000,000 gallons of spirits annually consumed in this country, being about one gallon each for every man, woman, and child in the United Kingdom. There was upwards of 40,00(1,000 gallons of malt consumed in the same period, arid he thought that upon a moderate calculation the malt consumed in spirits might extend to upwards of 100,000,000 quarters. Upon a fair calculation, he might reasonably s tate that there were 400,000,000 gallons of beer annually consumed in the United Kingdom. Now the inhabitants of this country were considered an enlightened people, and yet they paid 50,000,0001. in spirits and in intoxicating drinks. If the House was really in earnest in its desire to alleviate the distress and suffering which prevailed throughout the land, it might easily occomplish that object by doing away with that 50,000,0001. of taxation, which he considered as so much money thrown into the sea, because it produced nothing but poverty, crime, and wretchedness. He was, therefore, convinced that if the House would only lend its moral influence to the societies established for inculcating into the minds of the people princi ples of temperance, it would be doing more good than removing the duties off intoxicating drinks. Mr. B. FERRAND had heard the Hon. and Learned Member for Winchester charge the Noble Lord, the Member for Lynn, for having directly attended there to-night to sell the farmers. At his last election the Honourable and Learned Member marched into Winchester at the head of a great procession of farmers, to whom he pro nounced himself to be a great protectionist, and declared himself ready to fight their battles on the floor of the House, and die in defence of their interest. Afterwards, when he came into that house, he made a grand speech in favour of his constituents, and in which he stuck up fo r p ro t ect i on to agri culture. He assisted the Hoe. and Learned Gentleman to correct that speech, for the purpose of having it circulated among his constituents.—(" No, no," from Mr. B. Escott. ) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said " No, no," but he would prove it. On a particular occasion he happened to be in the shop, 59, Pallmall, when the Hon and Learned 3lember came in; seeing that he was there, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman said, " What did you think of my speech the other night." He told the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that it was a great piece of oratory, but that he did not understand how the Winchester farmers would be able to construe his long Latin quotations. Upon that advice the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alterations made in his speech, and had it printed and published, and circulated among his constituents, at his own expense. In the year 1846, he freely quoted from that powerful and lengthy speech, and even since then, it was found to be difficult to answer. Now, he distinctly charged the Hon. and Learned Member with selling his constituents; and as the Hon. and Learned Member had charged the Noble Lord the Member fur Lynn with attempting to sell the farmers, he must toll the Hon. and Learned Member that any Member in that House who could sell his consitituents would not hesi tate to sell himself._( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. B. ESCOTT admitted that, when his opinions upon the subject of the corn-laws underwent a change, his constituents had a perfect right to have some explanation. He gave that ex planation before the Corn Bill passed last session, and although he delivered it at one of the largest meetings of his constituents that he had evsr attended ; all of them but three expressed their entire approbation at his conduct. At the close of the session he met them again, at a public meeting assembled, and for the second time his constituents expressed themselves satis fied at his conduct. With respect to the speech, he could only state, that when he thought it necessary to have any speech of his corrected, certainly the Hon. Member for Kneresboreugh would be the last man he should appeal to for this purpose. He had listened to one or two speeches of the Hon. :Member, and had heard one or two of his friends remark, that if he had studied those speeches a little more, and repeated them, his oratory would have lost nothing.—( Hear, and laughter.) The resolution was then put and agreed to. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, the Corn Importa tion and Navigation Laws were read a third time and pa s s e d . POOR-LAW SETTLEMENT- Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged to r"" th at a o Seleclre land.t Committee be appointed to inquire into th e p o or-laws acquaintedhc oaudl c ould the com e advantagetoa j s practically . o a f s : . i ythehea these a itt d h v wa lc ta e st b m hena oa e l l otnti e : wished sku Removal Act. With and he d ft p sen,rostaottnhdsi nwl:ll,thoa shouldt twheerye !.. e l r a e vi were certainly di ffi culties c.d .,. or. , the subject ~du w n ti they and particularly the Poor-law regard to the law of settlement, b had to be encountered on every side, inquiry had it t h ° re ta s k pe e c t t li t i o s re l gard to the proceed(' together opportunity,a as seve r al f or q t u h e a s t ti p o u n r s p h o a s d e. te satisfactory.called With ybeen very place at the Andover U nion , 17igs that had taken steps, unless it were introduced by Government to take any t he intention of the some other Member of the House. The G overnment l oo k e d rather i t n o g th t e o ge neral the Aet question. T P p o ar o l r i - a l m aw en C t. om The House was w e ll a w are th a t, paused last year, the po we r s o f th e e in n is e si o u n n s e id rs were limited till the next sessi on o f l r i ng e e t e h s i s s a qu estion have he someinus Bod y t sa . ); , that , he thought it was absolute, cony necessary and which to which should also y ~h ave a local inspection..—( Hear, hear, from both sides of the House.) Under the system which formerly existed there was no doubt that great evils existed, and it was most necessary that the mal-administration that existed under that system should he exposed which could only be done by means of some Minis terial controul. But with regard to the manner in which this contract was to be exercised or regu -1 lated, there was the greatest difficulty in bringing it to the rule that would satisfy the House. The constitution of the officials should be changed. With respect to his own part, he believed that those Commissioners had exercised their powers to the best of their ability; and, further, he believed that their general administration had been successful, but he could not say that in every instance that had been brought before Parliament that their powers had been tightly exer t cised. He believed that the want of success had been owing to the circumstance of the control having been placed in different hands. In one case they had to receive the statements of officers under different circumstances. In one instance it was necessary to act upon the advice of the officials, and in another instance the Ministers of the Ci Own had to state what were the circumstances under which, and what were the reasons that led to, the adoption 2% 107 5 55 90 X 65 2 LAD te re ., that vi ed, a up voida 0 114 3 Ar toss ruled rt gr. end- they go mon p or the heir heir re :b- ind in off he as be