The Sun. — London, England, 1847-04-21 00:00:00

32? argument against the justice of the measure. -apt leading feature of the scheme was the establishment lat normal teachers and stipendiary monitors. He had been -very anxious to see this accomplished, having the greatest p ref erence for the c h arac t er o f th e sc h oo l mas t er , an d believing that really t o i n fl uence e d uca ti on th e y s h ou ld be gin at this point, and improv e th e c haracter of the enoolmaster before they hoped to improve that of the l a tiPil• He therefore did not oppose this part of the pro position. Nor did he oppose that part of the scheme which established schools of industry, whether they w ere agricultural or otherwise, in the rural districts. This he was of opinion, was a sound proposition, and Le gave in it his support. Again, the establishment of workhouses and prisons was a system ~e r? no which deserved the support of every one, for there R places where they more wanted. te e had now s.`e,atei those parts of the were measure to which those 11:es adhesion, and he should therefore state e t°, which lie offered his objection. He objected gene' which that a schoolmaster should be a teacher ' religion.—(Hear hear.) It was not his pro ter province to meddle with theoretical doctrines. t might be enough, as was done in Ireland, 40 permit him to instruct in the general principles of If they could agree about those Chrit-tian Principles which ought to influence the lives of all—it t hey could establish a kind of neutral ground —on Which various religions can meet as on a cote /3)1°11 basis—why then they should teach them ; tit he obj ecte d t h at t h e sc h oo l master s h ou ld b e ma d e the instrument of theology. It had been said, let the Scriptures be read every day in the schools, but he was ' y ell' much afraid that it would become a mere task of ro te, and the repetition would prevent it from sinking into their hearts in the manner that it should. T his syste m had been tried in Holland ; and those who had read the report of Mr. Poussein were filvare that there they first made the schoolmaster the tainister- of religion in schools, but in a year or two afterwards they were obliged to alter the plan, and admit the clergymen of different denominations, a nd the system worked in the most effectual manner, and had done ever since. When that great monu tnent to the liberality of the people of Liver- P oo l , the corporation schools were established the clergy of different denominations were admitted to instruct the scholars in the place where the pupils met, 01 1 the common grounds of secular instruction; and they t ints learned that charitable intercourse between the sects which bound them in the bonds of union like one family. 44 e objected to the sort of gratuity to the school taastcrs, for while be had no objection to providing their emoluments, he objected to the doing away with their independence. He had another great objectio n that clau se w hi c h or d ere d t h a t w h ere pupil teacherswere unfitted for the offices of teachers they should still have a chance in some of the offices connected with the excise or the customs. This he thought was offerini, a premium to the less able indi viduals to offer themselves for these schools, because it W as in effect saying, «if you are not fitted for the one ou will at all events be eligible for the other. He thought that all Government situations should be thrown open to public competition. He would have no power to offer any amendment on the second reading, or in ecnntnit tee ; and he had now to deal with it in a vote on the educational estimates. He therefore felt it was his duty to move the present amendments, though he had Still, doubt w h et h er th e H ouse cou ld en t er t a i n th em . "till, should he be able to press them forward, he should certainly ta k e the sense of the House on them. What di sposed hi m to offer these amendments and not oppose t he Plan on the whole was, because he saw in it the traces • progression —of progress from a worse to a better sys tem_but it was not what he could wish ; still it was i t tg r ess, and he suppor te d it. However, he unght the Governm en t, in ma l t ing these grants, anould make an annual statement of the ex tuditure for eve r y e d uca ti on al institution; from h° ° lsl to the British Museum. On the present Occasion he re grette d t o see r anged on this subject againstthe Government, some of the best friends of ocatien, who seemed to treat it somewhat in a secta. • ail a nd narrow spi r it—th e y seemed to realise the say ing of Hudibras "Civil and religions fears, Th e Set folk s t oge ther by the ears. s° parties seemed rather to give way to these fears than to inquire into the real nature of this grant. From ever y motive th ere was an i n d uceme nt for the friends of _,° extensi on o f education to b e un it e d, and no reason natever that they should differ. But he regretted that ; I° hw u tt: the ca se , and trusted that they would not long 80 , for united they were equal to anything, and e tin to accompli s h a ll t h at t h ey d es ired. The Govern =ment, howe ver , st i ll held the fate o f t h e c o un t r y i n th e i r ends, and if they would but accede to the numerous P r esentations which had bees made, they might still in ‘rrY out a great benefit for the country without alarm de. the Prej u di ces o f any sect, or di sa pp o intin g th e ires tls e any party. Yet, although there was a bar in b ut pian as now proposed, which seemed to him to be all of ;Insuperable, he did not despair of the ultimate success to cause of education. With a willing Government ,s__"erise the plan, and with a willing Parliament to nouvide the means, he did not doubt but that in the end c.ation for all classes would be diffused throughout see l and. Sir C• NAPIER said if he were to consult his own This es, he should be content to give a silent vote on h rsion, because he believed that there were many on t embers far more capable of addressing the House itit u he s ubject than him—but representing a large con an en eY as he did—many of whom were Di ssen t ers tr Roman C a th o li cs —h e th oug ht it hi s d uty to es Pass on the attentien of the H ouse f or a Short time.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord at the head of the Government last evening, stated to the House, that the deliberations of that House were Overawed on the subject before it, and that many of the Members of the House had been called upon by their constituents to give an account of their sentiments on the subject, and peremptorily required to vote against the Government measure. He (Sir C. Napier) did not know to whom the Noble Lord referred, but as far as himself and his colleague (Sir B. Hall) were concerned he could assure him that their deliberations had not been overawed, and that they had not been asked or required by their constituents to vote against the measure. He must tell the Noble Lord that neither his constituents nor any fear of the Government, or anybody else could coerce him, because in the course he intended to adopt with respect to the measure he considered he was simply and conscientiously doing his duty. It was quite true that his colleague and himself had been waited upon by a deputation of Dissenters and Roman Catholics, stating that they objected to the measure. The Dissenters objected to it on the ground that enough of bl csnitY had been already given to the Church for t he purpose of educating the people, and that they a ° Dissenters had great objections to receive any money f or educati ng th e c hild ren o f the sect to which they be longed; and that, therefore, they considered it most un just that th e y s h ou ld be taxed by the present Gevern 'Lent for what they would derive no benefit from what "far; whilst the Catholics upon the other hand, who Were thrown entirely out of the proposed plan were of o pinion that it was ex t reme ly h ar d to be taxed for the Purpose of instructing other people in religious octrines which they did not approve. The Noble Lo rd also st a t e d, th a t it was not the duty of the Church to educate the working classes of the Cou ltry; but the Hon. Bart. the Member for the Uni versity of Oxford (Sir R. H. I ng li s ) disagreed with the Noble Lord, as he stated that, before dissent was known 1 this country, that th e Ch urc h was th e grea t e d u c a t or of the people; and that even when dissent began and /2.,:ourished, th a t th e Ch urc h excee d ed the D i ssenters i n tne education of the people. Nay, more, the Hon. Bart. W ent still f ar tb er, as he sa i d that he was distinctly of opinion, no, grant should be given to any class except to tbte Established Church; he (Sir C. Napier) W as surpris e d to h ear suc h a sentence as that proceed from the me uth of such an enlightened Member as the Jaoli. Baronet. According to him, the education of the people exclusively belonged to the Church, and that all other sects, whether Wesleyan, Jew, or Catholic, were to be deprived entirely of the means of education, so far as aid from the Government grant was concerned ; or, in other word, that those of all other denominations, except those belonging to the Church of England, were going to a. certain place which he was unwilling to men tion.—(Laughter.) But it was possible that the Hon. Baronet might have been overawed by his constituents, and that he had been told by them, that if he voted for any money being given to any body, except the Church of England, t'aat 1 - ie would lose the confidence of the Church of Englan.3, wad endanger his seat at the next election. The Noble Lord said last evening that there were nearly a million of -children now educated in the National So ciety of the Church of England. The liturgy and cate chism were taught in that Church, and the children were obliged to. go to them. The Noble Lora also said that the Committee of Education neither approved nor disap proved of that plan, but he hoped and trusted that the Church would follow the example of the Weslcyans, and be more liberal, by not forcing an education on the chil dren which their parents would not approve of. He also said that he was quite certain that the Church would be the gainer by some relaxation of that rule. Now, it ap peared to him (Sir C. Napier) that if the views of the Noble Lord were followed out, that this would be very nearly a secular education. The Noble Lord said that he hoped and trusted that the Church would be regulated on a more liberal footing, and that the Dissenter would not be obliged to learn the Church catechism, or the liturgy, or torced to go to church, contrary to the will of their parents. It appeared to him that this was as he had said--a secular education, and if it were Possible in this country, where there were so m any esifferent sects, to have a school attached to every chapel at large, it should be done. There co uld not be the smallest doubt that it would be right a nd proper t o connec t th e e d uca ti on o f c hild ren w i t h re ligion, but when they knew that it was perfectly ix:apos chle that there could b e sc h oo ls a tta c h e d to every ureh or chapel in the country, it was evident that here the English. Church existed in agricultural rlstriess, that either the Dissenters and Catholics who hued in these districts must go to school, contrary to _ ,°. will of their parents, and be taught a religion of 7nich tl ey did not approve, or else go totally and entirely without edu station. Now, he really did not see how the present e d plan was to obviate that difficulty ; and it ap pear • to him perfectly impossible that a secular edu ecoald be given to all the children of this 7' 141 7. Let the clergy of the Established Church lyre them religions instruction an d education on Sun ,Pri• :Let them do, what it was the custom to do in elan7verY small districts with very conscientious e ven, who, after the sermon of the Sunday fore ,Zuns invited the children into the vestry, and taught Z e ta_ their catechism, and who thought that that was v ic ,.° ll 3' proper way of giving them religious instruc th:* The children went to church in the afternoon in A lam• manner as in the f orenoon . L e t th em see if rffe was any danger of the children haviil reli issinz_s_!d!eation, if t h rough the country at large they gbi t 7" l in the same manner as in the smaller dis °Atiattir. Tin tiiatrah *IA tilt , MOW THE SUN'. idON DON, WEDNESDAY EVENING-, APRIL 21, 1847 classes of the clergy would consider it a very consider able imposition upon them, if, after the sermon, they were bounl to give all the children belonging to their parish a proper and religious education. The clsrgy were unwilling to educate their children ; they were also unwilling that they should go without education, and they, therefore, came to the country, and asked for schoolmasters to be appointed with them, in order to save them trouble. II s was sorry to be obliged to state these things, but he conscientiously believed th em. If the clergy were obliged to educate theirown children, no person who knew anything of the dissenters would believe that they would be behindhand in following or setting an example. Ile therefore could see no difficulty in giving the child ren a secular education, and allowing their different pastors to instruct them in their religion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Paymaster of the Forces, in as eloquent speech, gave a great number of strong reasons in order to prove why the Government ought to educate the people, and he quoted the opinions of Adam Smith, who said, that unless the people were properly educated there would be constant revolutions, and he instanced im nieciiately after that upon the call and at the will of one man there was an insurrection of 100,000 men. His words were, that Parliament was besieged, the Speaker trembled in his chair, the children of the Prime Minister were removed in their night-dresses to the Horse Guards — the Lords were pulled out cf their carriages, and the bishops were crawling on the tiles. He did not think that there would be much danger of their being besieged in their new Houses of Parliament. It was not very probable that you Mr. Speaker will shiver in your chair, or the bishops be sky-larking on the tops of the tiles. — (Great laughter.) He was quite persuaded that they never could get Roman Catholic children to go into the schools of the Dissenters, or the children of the members of the Church of England to attend at Catholic or Dis senting schools. But it was proposed to exclude the Catholics altogether by the present mea sure. Now, they did not exclude Catholics from the army, they did not exclude them from the navy, they did not exclude them from shedding their best blood, by land and by water, in the defence of .the country. He, therefore, did not see with what justice they could now exclude the children of Catholics from participating in the present grant for primary education. Having said this much about the principle of this scherre, he would state that he also of to the details—an objection which was shared in by great numbers of the Dissenters as well as Churchmen in England. It was provided in the plan that the Government inspectors were to be subject to the approval of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York. As to the Church, there could not be much objection to this arrangement, but he could not agree to it as it regarded the Dissenters. With the exception of the Wesleyans, however, such was to be the mode of appointing the inspectors. Sir G. GREY expressed his dissent to this statement. It was true that, as it regarded the appointment of the Church school inspectors, they were subject to the ap proval of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, but the inspectors for the Dissenting schools would be appointed by the committees of the respective dissenting bodies, subject to the approval of the Board of Education. Sir C. NAPIER continued—He objected, at all events, to the arrangement, such as he understood it. He ob jected to the mode of educating apprentices, as laid down in the minutes, as perfectly impracticable. It was use less to go over all the regulations laid down by the Council, as it would only fatigue the House ; but he would merely mention that he did not agree with the supposition of many opponents of the measure, that the children so educated would fill all the places of the Go vernment. He thought such an idea perfectly absurd. He was extremely sorry to vote against the Government on this question, but he could not consent to support a system of education which excluded the Catholics, and to which the Dissenters had so many conscientious grounds of objection. Having thus explained his views by intimating his intention to vote against the motion of the Government.—(Hear, hear.) The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY wished to offer a few words. The objections of the Dissenters bad already been fully given, and he would confine himself to the position of the Church of which he was a Mem ber. It was not without a painful struggle that he had made up his mind to the course which he would pursue. It appears that the body to which he belonged was alone excluded from the grant, and he could not, after that, see how any Roman Catholic Member in that House could support the proposition. He, for one, must vote against it. He would thank the Hon. Member for Finsbury and the Gallant Admiral for the speeches which they had just made; for the Roman Catholics had complained, and they had a right to complain of the exclusion to which they had been subjected. When he saw that there were thousands who were not only unable either to write or to read, but who were totally unacquainted with the name of their Creator, he could not, therefore, but feel it hard that those of his own faith had been left without assistance, especially when he recollected the efforts which had been made by the Church to which he was attached for dispeding the darkness which had set tled on many regions of the world. Yet he would not act, like the dog in the manger, for although he could not dispel the prejudices of this country against his own faith, he would at least do all that he could, and assist to the utmost of his power to support the scheme of the Government. He looked upon religious feeling as the offspring of early British spirit; ,if there was some de gree of intolerance in it, let the House treat it with a degree of tenderness and love, and endeavour to win it over to charity, and toleration, and benevolence. — (Cheers.) Mr. SEYMER said that the Government had admitted that the measure was an imperfect one, but still nothing could induce him to join with the party who were endeavouring to throw out the mea sure. He believed that . the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, was perfectly unanswer able by the opponents of the measure. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had blamed the Government for what he pleased to call the fanaticism of the country. He (Mr. Seymer) could assure that Hon. Member, that if no deference had been paid to such feelings, there would have been such an amount of hostility raised against the measure, that nothing could have withstood it. There was a class in this country who appeared to treat all sorts of religion alike; he did not call those per sons " liberal," he called them indifferent. He did not believe that the state of education was in this country in so perfect a state as was reputed by some persons. The character of the schoolmasters was also of the lowest character. The Hon. Member alluded to some of the schools in the county of Dorset, in confirmation of his statements. He thought that, under such circumstances, these persons incurred a serious responsibility who offered any opposition to the measure of the Go vernment. lie cordially approved of the sys tem proposed by her Majesty's Government, and he was quite surprised that it should be said that the measure was dangerous to civil and religious li berty, and the analogy between the effects of this system and other systems of education as existing in Austria and Russia was perfectly false and unfair. He protested against the principles of political economy being applied to the great question of education in this country. Tho Church did not seek by this measure to empty the cha pels for the purpose of filling the Churches. He begged most cordially to give his support to the Government scheme of education. Mr. AGLIONBY would bear his testimony to the deep anxiety on the part of the Government to promote the education and the welfare of the people at large. But still differences of opinion would exist as to the suitable nature of the plans proposed by the Government for the purpose of improving the moral and intellectual con dition of the people. He regretted, however, that he could not give his entire support to the whole scheme of her Majesty's Government. He wished to make one observation in reply to what had been said with respect to the able and eloquent speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Macaulay), who made out a triumphant case for expending money on the education of the people instead of expending it in punishing them. No doubt, many were carried away by the eloquence of his address but he failed to show by his conclusions that the Govern ment scheme was the best that could be adopted. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorsetshire said no answer bad been made to his speech, but he (Mr. Aglionby) considered that the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had given a fair and clear answer. The Right Hen. Gentleman's premises were undisputed, but his conclusions were erroneous. He (Mr. Macaulay) considered that secular and religious education should go on together ; but be (Mr. Aglionby) agreed with the Honourable Member for Bath, that they ought to be separated, and also that voluntary exertions had as yet been unable to accomplish all that was required; and, therefore, that aid ought to be given by the State, but that it ought to be given in accordance with the amendment which the Hon. Baronet the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Sir W. Clay) intended to propose—" That it was expedient that in any plan for promoting the education of the people by pecuniary assistance from the State, provision should be made that in schools receiving such assistance the opportunity of participating in all instruction other than religious should be afforded to children whose parents may object to the religious doctrine taught in such schools. He was strongly in favour of a secular system of education in which all sects—Roman Catholics as well as dissenters—could participate. He would not object to any scheme of national education which would afford instruction to all—none being excluded. It was on these grounds that he regretted that he felt it his duty to oppose the Government plan, so far as the religious part of it was concerned, as ho believed it would create schisms and heartburnings amongst all classes of the people.—(Hear, hear.) Such a system as the one he had pointed out should have his earnest support. Viscount SANDON said he should vote in favour of the plan of education which the Government had pro posed, and the grounds on which he did so were, that it was the duty of the State to afford education to the people.—(Hear, hear.) That education did not simply consist in reading and writing, but in religion also ; and, to him, a scheme of education not allied to religion was a delusion, a mockery, and a snare, because the education of the moral part of man was the most important point of all.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the system proposed, that the education should be allied with religious instruction, was a wise and:judi• cious plan. He hoped, however, the time would come when the Church would open their schools to all, quite irrespectiv e o f th e religious predilections of the parents a of do th pt e e c d. children, and pehsp ansl perhaps, was this plan would be ultimately to which opponents couwldasohtiheectr w ly it p h ar a t n o th e to sthoewplaonf reason. To expect, however, that a man with 100/. or 01. g O t li O yo uomsr instruction,o6r a O I O children and rwl aunder unfair m h a i his c. butha rligheee: ought cios a talsoorebaer, giveaw strictly therefore, hailed this measure as one g reat step .t in the right direction, and hoped that in coarse of time ha materially anaentipd, and h e rsnderad more adtanta geous to the people.—(Hear.) Mr. GISBORNE said that he did not think her Ma jesty's QoTarninent ira any wilY to Wawa for having brought forward this scheme—it was brought forward in accordance with principles already recognised by the House, and was in its provision a measure of great moderation. He had no scale by which he could limit the duties of Government in the performance of any thing which was for the benefit of the community, and he pot the question on the simple ground of whether the Government could more advantageously attend to the education of the lower orders in this country than it proposed umier this measure. Taking into considera tion the proposition itself, and the principle upon which it was founded, he thought it was in itself without objection, but he very much questioned whether the Government could ever interfere beneficially with the education of the people. It was not so much a question of Church principle, for in the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay) last night all his arguments against the voluntary principle would be equally appli cable to the Church system. The Right Hon. Gentle man would appoint inspectors to these schools, and would receive their reports, but would these inspectors and their reports be cient. He could refer to a re _ _ ffic. port of—(the Hon. Member here paused to select a document from some papers near him, when) — Mr. ROEJ3UCI( rose, and moved that the House be counted. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but it being round that exactly forty members were present, Mr. GISBORNE resumed. There were many reports _ with reference to public schools, and nearly all of them made ♦arious complaints affecting the school or the scholars. Many stated that those in the school found it impossible to make themselves heard. That would cer- thinly bo an argument in favour of the foundation of Normal Schools, to which only those who had been sub jected to a proper examination would be admitted. That would have been the course to be pursued; but had the Church of England which had adopted these improve ments in education succeeded? The Noble Lord in his speech last night, described the ignorance which pre vailed in the lower orders of the country, and that best showed whether the Church establishments had suc- ceeded. If they doubted the fact, let them refer to a report of one of the inspectors.—(Hear, hear.) The Rev. Mr. Mosely, who described the poor as for saking the Church, 4 and being utterly indifferent in the greater number of in - stances to‘ihe benefit of education. Mr. Kay, another authority, remarked that the Roman Catholic Church had always been alive to the fact that to teach the poor their teachers must be chosen from among themselves, and therefore their priests were in many instances—and with the sagacity which marked all the worldly policy of that Church—chosen from amongst the very poor. Mr. Mosely had also stated that amongst several hundred children, taken from the highest class of these schools, a great many were unable to tell the name of the country in which they lived, and the name of her Majesty, besides possessing the grossest and most absurd ideas with reference to questions of geography or history, although nearly all of them could write and knew something of arithmetic. These things which existed under a system similar, though not so extensive as the one proposed by Government, convinced him that interference in this question neither had pro duced nor would produce any really beneficial effects. Mr. Kay took no notice of Mr. Lang's book, and it was therefore to be inferred that he was unable to answer it. Mr.. Lang praised the system adopted in Prussia, and said that it was the most perfect in the world, but he considered the effects of that education as making a man more moral, were wholly incomplete, and that in this regard the Prussian system was a failure. They had heard much of this system, but what was the fact ? The character for honesty of the Prussians was far lower than that of any other European nation. The Hon. Member then quoted several passages to show that chastity in the sex was very much disregarded. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edin burgh had praised the Scotch people very; much, but he believed that he should have to make very serious de- ductions to the eulogium3 which he had bes - towed upon them. He had been in the habit of spending weeks in the towns; in Greenock and Glasgow. Notwithstand- ing the high education of the Scotch, ho saw nothing in those towns which gave him a high opinion of them; and there were as many places there in which he would not wish to trust himself. Well, these educated Scotchmen, who could read and write, were, in comparison to any Englishmen, nothing but barbarians. He was also in the habit of spending several months in the Highlands, and in a particular glen, and the character of it was not that there were one or two drunken men in it, but that they were all drunkards. Yet they received a good religious education, for such was the fact, that they were all splendid controversialists.—(Hear, hear.) National education would pass by the very class they wished to educate, in the same manner as the Established Church had passed it by. He did not wish to speak disrespectfully of the Church, and though he did admit that it afforded to all the higher classes that instruction which was to be desired, yet he held it to be his opinion that she did not give religious instruction to the lower classes. The Wesleyans and, where they existed, the Roman Catholics were the real instructors of the poor. But then he might be asked, Do you rely upon the vo luntary principle ? He would answer, that though well aware of the difficulties of tho question, yet he would say that he had much more reliance upon the voluntary system than upon any other. He had more reliance on the voluntary principle than on anything which the Government could do. If they were to take Dr. liay's statement, it would be at least four score years before its benefits would be realised ; but if they looked to what had been already done by the vo luntary principle—seeing how much it had advanced education among the lower orders, he did not despair, but that long before the time stated the greatest benefits would be realised. He had now stated his views, and though he did not like the motion of the Hon. MeMber for Finsbury, still rather than support the plan of Government, he must give it his support. Mr. P. BORTHWICK followed in reply. The Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House, had gone a long way out of the usual limit to establish his views. Among other places he had gone to Scotland, in answer to the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh, as to the results of the education of the people of that country. He had stated that some time ago he had spent some days a t G reenoc k an d Gl asgow, an d pointed out the filth and evils which he found to exist. He had also amused them with the account of a High lander called Donald, who had a gun, and who every day was in the habit of getting drunk. These cases he had cited to show that Scotland was not so moral as it had been represented to be. He had also mentioned that England was superior to Scotland, instead of as it had been represented. Now the Hon. Member, he sub mitted, had misrepresented the argument of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh. His argument was not a comparison of England with Scotland, but Scotland with Scotland—Scotland now with what it was before the introduction of State education.—(Hear, hear.) He would support the proposition of her Majesty's Govern ment, because it proposed some means to advance the cause of education; whereas the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury was for an indefinite postponement of the question. He had admired the speech of the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern ment. It was worthy of the best days of English statesmen, and he only regretted that the measure of the Government was not equal to the speech. It was not extensive enough to meet the evils of the case. He regretted also that on both sides of the question an illiberal and intolerant spirit had been shown. Nevertheless, though the plan did not go as far as he could wish, it should nevertheless have his support. With regard to those who objected to the measure of her Majesty's ounded ; Government, j a n s m n en o t n , e oonthwer,ha thant were this—that their o becausebiectton s f the Bill was not shaped to meet the desires of all classes. Therefore the people should have no education at all ; they were not to be taught their duty to Government, or to their Sovereign, but were to sink into the degradatio n of utter ignorance. He believed that if means were taken to ascertain how many of the persons signing these petitions had read the Book of Common Prayer, the re turn would be very little more than nil. He did not say this with any intention of speaking dis respectfully of those persons, but still he believed that such was the case. He most cheerfully supported the measure of Her Majesty's Government, because al though it did not do all, it was yet a great step in the right direction. Th e H on . G en tl eman w h o h a d prece d e d him had advocated the voluntary system. lie (Mr. Borthwiek) had only one answer to give to the argument of that Hun. Gentleman, namely, that it had failed. The lion. Member concluded by expressing his determination to vote for the Bill. Lord MORPETH said that after the full exposition which this question had received in the beginning of the discussion, and the further explanation that had been made from time to time ho should have thought it un necessary to make any observation, and consider himself inexcusable if he were long to trespass on the at tention of the House, but as a member of the Government—as a member of the obnoxious Privy Council—as one who had always taken an anxious part in the question of education, but also as one who found himself in the painful condition of becoming separated in opinion from many of those with whom he had been in the habit of acting on this question, he trusted that he might be allowed to make a few obser vations to the House. Indeed, he wanted all the con sciousness and assurances of a good cause to sustain him I on this occasion, for, not only in respect of the petitions which he had presented to the House, and the immense preponderance of such as were opposed to the course, he. meant to adopt ; not on account of this alone, or of the number of voices or votes which might be brought to bear against him ; but because he was compelled to differ from many of those with whom he had been in the habit of agreeing. He trusted that those friends also felt, but he knew that what he felt himself on this occasion could be estimated by no common rule. What was it that led him to encounter the pain arising from this severance of familiar ties ? It was the conviction that the different parties and denominations had taken their stand on this occasion on very low grounds, and that their weapons were of a coarser temper than the nature of the case required ; they were too intently considering the interest of the church or of the chapel, of the tabernacle or of the sanctuary, instead of giving that attention to the people which their condition required. It was like fighting the armour without giving any attention to see whether the life was left in the body. The doctrine, that the State had no right to interfere in the education of the people, had found a comparatively faint and hesitating echo within the walls of Parliament itself. It was partly hinted indeed by the Hon. Member for Nottingham, who had lately addressed the House. In his amusing speech he was particularly severe on the Prussians and scotch. Mr. Laing had indeed given a very unfavourable account of the state of education in the first of these countries. But others, and the great ma jority of travellers, he believed, had given a more favour ables,oti, account. He ,_,,,lsifier,(LtzdigAnal.oarip,,e,,pthr)utipaenl,wthaarlttinit g all th e characteristics of a free country. The Hon. Member was particularly severe on Scotland. Now, as he (Lord Morpetb) had net ibe good-rar se the Um :doubts would call it the bad—fortune to be born on the other side of the Tweed, he did not feel it necessary to take up the cause of a people who were never backward in taking up or maintaining their own. But the Hon. Member described them as akin to savages, and he gave the House a very classical account of their vices. One of them, a close attendant on the Hon. Member's own person, it appeared got drunk both on high days and holidays. But whether the Hon. Member for Notting ham were right or wrong, he did not wish to shrink from the endeavour to bring the machinery of the State to bear on the education of the people. However, much the ground might have been taken out of doors, that it was not the business of the state to educate the people, he Hon. Member who had moved the amend ment, had scarcely touched upon it, while the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath had altogether repudiated it; he even said that he was prepared to go further than they did. He (Lord Morpeth) treated with contempt the bugbear that had been raised, that the Government measure would throw an undue share of patronage into their hands. They indeed pensioned a few worn out schoolmasters, they rewarded and trained up sonic pro mising school boys, but they never calculated on the fos tering of a corrupted system, as some of the Hon. Members appeared to consider it. But the Honourable Member appeared to think that they might have adopted a more efficacious system of national education, and one less sectarian in its principles and tenets. Now he was not sure, that as far as he was concerned, that he very much differed from the princi ples that had been laid down by the Hon. Member. But what was their option ? They had as usual three courses open to be pursued ; they might have favoured one par ticular method of teaching, and probably if they had adopted one method, that one would be the method in culcated by the Church of England. In no such scheme would he have been a party. They might have taken another scheme, by which the State would prescribe the same course to all parties, without permitting any one to be paramount ; but his plan he firmly believed would meet favour from no party in that House, or in the coun try. Well, then, they had the co-operative system, which was built on that which it already found. He was himselfoap satisfiedablo of doing g that the vroelautntary principle was good, and he would willingly adopt it, as far as he could, but because they would not consent to any ex elusive scheme they were taunted with indifference to authorised opinions. He did not hear without emotion the speech of his Noble Friend and Relative, the Mem ber for Arundel, that evening, for he was himself in some degree connected with the Catholics of this coun try ; and in what degree was he so connected ? When he became a member of the Privy Council he found cer tain principles laid down and established, and it was only proposed by these minutes to extend or fill them up. It was his conscientious belief that there were no modifications introduced into these minutes, further than were already recognised by the House. If further changes had been intended, the House would have re ceived notice. He was as much prepared to receive ap plications from the Roman Catholics as from any other class of her Majesty's subjects, and if such applications had been made and refused, he should not continue to sit as one of the Committee. He thought that the ad vocates of the voluntary system had shown that there was an immense number of the young in this country lamentably destitute of the means of education, and whether they took the higher or the lower numbers, they still showed that a • -. _ frightful deficiency existed. An acquaintance of his (Lord Morpeth's) had lately instituted inquiries into the degree of education which prevailed in the country, sad he would read to the House a few of the statistics with which he had been furni.shed from the parish of Bradford, in the West Riding of Yorkshire. The House was aware that this was a populous district, and one in which the voluntary movement had exhibited its best efforts. The parish of Bradford was divided into 13 townships, with a population of 119,000 persons. The number of public schools was forty, and of private schools one hundred and eleven. The scholars who attended the day public schools were 4,267, in private schools 3,783, while the Sunday schools were attended by 19,000 children. He did not, however, consider that this Sun day school education was satisfactory, inasmuch as they were compelled to omit much of that information which could be better given on the other days. The Noble Lord read further extracts from the statistical table, to show the relative numbers of masters and mistresses, and the conditions of the schools in that part of York shire. The result showed that forty in every 100 could not read in England, while ninety-nine out of every 100 could read in the State of Massachussets. Surely this state of things should put them to the blush. Now, he did not feel himself called upon to add any thing to what this report had stated ; but he felt the disparaging position in which the schoolmaster was placed. Looking to the statements which these reports had made, he found that in the district with which he was connected, he found that in th• West Riding of Yorkshire, the number of prisoners committed able to read was 32, 112 could read imperfectly, and 149 could not read at all. At the last assizes he found that out of end d 6 6 2, 2only could te n n c o o t u r l d e a r d e ad at 34 A c o t u the d h e r e l ad indistinctly, nd as tse i s s s t i i o n n c s t y o Leeds, f read, 7 there imperfectly, whom and 6 only l 6 could could e 3could read not write at all, and there were 74 who could neither read nor write. On reference to the expenses, he found that the whole expense of the police was 18,9261., of which, that for the constabulary was 6,4781., that for the county gaol was 2,2121., and with the other expenses, the whole of the sum was made up. There were 31,000 houses, and the rate for the punish. ment of crime was equal to 10s. Bd. per house, which was not, as he had stated, for the prevention of crime, but for its punishment after it had been committed. Deeply did he regret that in this measure he was compelled to differ from those with whom, through a long political career, he had been in the habit of acting. He believed that they were mistaken, and believing this, he was bound to give his vote in favour of the plan proposed by the Go vernment. Mr. BRIGHT rose, with the greatest deference, to express his opinions on this question, but with all his admiration for the sp eec h es o f t h ose ho were in favour of the Government plan, he felt that the respect was far more for the ability which had been displayed in the avoiding the question rather than for the arguments which had been adduced in support of it. But as he had been educated as a Nonconformist he felt compelled to offer his opinion. He deeply regretted, he would r e • peat, his oppo s iti on, b ut he could not see t h e a dvantage that was likely t o resu l t from the plan w hi c h they had produced, and one half of the time during which the Hon. Member for Edinburgh had been upon his legs had been occupied in attempting to prove that the voluntary system had been totally inoperative in promoting the edu cation of the people. This he totally denied, •and notwithstanding all the statements of Pr. Hook, Mr. Baines, and all the other authorities, both for and against the Government scheme, it appeared that in 1818, the number of scholars was 674,000; in 1833 it was 1,270,000; and, in 1847 it was 2,600,000. Accord ing to the population in the first year, the average was one in seventeen; in 1833 it was one in eleven; and, in 1847 it was as high as one in eight. But the Noble Lord seemed to place -great reliance on the number of Sunday scholars, and had stated that upwards of 210,000 scholars were receiving instruction through the agency of the Established Church; but on reference to the reports he found that those who had been instrumental in carrying out the voluntary system, had educated in 1818, upwards of 470,000 scholars; in 1835, they had 1,500,000 scholars; and in 1847, that number had been very largely increased. He would now take Scotland, and he deeply regretted that the Right Hon. the ' Secretary at War (Mr. Fox Maule) was not in his place, for no people could have done themselves higher honour than the Scotch, in freeing themselves from the domination of an Established Church, and the baneful influence of a connexion with the State. According to the reports, it was now evident that although the Church had dated itsestablishment only for a few years there were at the present time between six and seven hundred thousand children under tuition. If he were to turn to Wales he might cite the authority of a very respectable paper— the Caernarvon Herald, and state that while the Esta- blished Church party had not founded a single school, the several sects of the Dissenters bad founded no less than 676 for the education of the lower classes, and at the present moment there were no fewer than 1,022,000 children receiving instruction through the aid of the Dissenters. Under the tuition of the Wesleyan Me thodists there were-463,000, under the Independents 260,000. under the Baptists 82,000, and which, with a ' change under a variety of other sects, a number which e l e with t thhh who w er e re w s p h e c o l e t e a t do n: o c t u aht n ee t d t w e ihno u l p et w hoe a f rd ct s ohue o n f tnr l yu ,4 m o ab O te ,O r O t O hoef ; have been sa p tiwn re des s l ent time nine out of ton edu cated by the Dissenters, and this he would assert without any fear of contradiction. The Noble Lord at the head of the Government appeared to differ from his Right Hon. Friend the Member for the city of Edinburgh upon one point. The Noble Lord appeared to think , whe n he c ame into office, that the voluntary system had p rovided sufficient buildings for the education of the p eo p le. The y had the authority of the Noble Lord that schools the v o liunn tsaurfficient a b un d ance; y syst em hi t h erto pursued and it was becaus e Government could not find any ways and means for di stributin g their g r ants for building b h le ad provided schools that they n ow came before the House to ask for power to be allowed to expend their grants in improving the quality of the education administered in the buildings already erected. Now was it likely that a system which had built up school-houses in so much abundance should be a long time in improving the quality of the education to be given in them? Where then was the necessity of this measure? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government had said he did not understand why any dissenter could refuse to partake of this grant on the ground,that part of the money was to be given to the Church of England. He did not think it was very ingenious for the Noble Lord to put such a statement in his speech. It was not because the Church of England received money from this grant that the Non-conformists objected to it, but because it would not be in accordance with their principles. to receive public money for the purpose of teaching re ligion in their schools.—(Hear, hear.) The Right H on. Gentleman, the Member for the City of Edinburgh, did not usually speak with vary great courtesy of the Dis senters and Nonconformists. He had heard him speak of the braying of Exeter Hall, and last night the Right Hon. Gentlemen spoke frequently of the clamour" which was being made throughout the country against this measure. Well, it was easy for Gentlemen in office to speak in that way. No doubt there were many com forts, and conveniencies, and pleasures connected with office, or men would not seek it so readily, and it was easy for men in office to say that any opp os iti on , w hi c h to might be raised their measures, was " clamour ;" but he asked whether it was likely that 500 gentlemen would cone from all part% of the country, up to London, at great personal inconvenience, to meet the obloquy that might be heaped on them, for making a clamour, if they did pot beliero Oat there was Wm °thin daner ' ons in the principle of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman ought to be the last person to meet that opposition with the simple declaration that it was clamour, and phoo, phoo it way, as if it were the n?soning of an insane class of persons.—(Hear, hear.) I The Right Honourable Gentleman had told them what Washington, and Jefferson, and the com monwealth of Massechusetts had done, but was it fair to draw a comparison between the United States and the United Kingdom ? Was there any Established Church in the United States ? Had every parish in tile commonwealth of Massachussets the highly edu cated gentleman with considerable leisure upon his hands, and connected with an aristocratic and privi leged class, that was to be fonnd in every quarter of the United Kingdom, acting always in unison with and in conformity to the wishes of the privileged class with which he was connected ? Free this country from the trammels of a State Church—make the Church a free and popular institution, and they would find that all the other sects would be as harmonious upon the ques tion of religious education, as the various sects of America. The Nonconformists objected upon princi ple to the manner in (which the Government seized; hold of the public funds to aid and improve the functions of any particular sect, and, therefore, they could not consistently with their principles, participate in this grant. By this plan, Government were preparing an extensive system of education, under which the young persons of this country were to be instructed in certain religious tenets, and all this was to be done under the direction of the clergyman of the parish, who would have power to examine the children, and, in addi tion to the minister of the parish, there was to be a Go vernment Inspector, who would also be a clergyman under the control of the Archbishop. An LION. MEbIIIER—Ho will only inspect Church of England schools. Mr. BRIGHT—Of course, the inspection of a Church of England clergyman would only apply to Church of England schools. Government could not have the as surance to propose that Church of England inspectors should have the power of inspecting the schools of the Dissenters. The Nonconformists were not quite so hum bled as that. No; the Dissenters were free from such intrusion ; but had Government the power, they would readily put it into execution. Now, he was pre pared to contend, that this proposal to appoint Church of England inspectors, was calculated unjustly to increase the power of the Established Church. At present the vicar of the parish had only the power at will to inspect the schools of his neighbourhood, but by this Minute he was made an officer of the State, while it was quite clear, if Goverment fulfilled their compact with the Church, their own inspectors would have to be clergymen too, and there could be no doubt that the operations of these two functionaries would add to the power of the Church, and retard the progress of political and religious freedom. But if there was anything wanted to show what would be the effect of this plan upon the Established Church, it was to be found in the exulting shouts with which it was hailed by the clegrymen of the Established Church. Did they ever support any plan that was calculated to advance the interests of the Nonconformists. He was surprised that it had met with so much support from the laity, because nothing could more retard the pro gress of a nation in civil and religious liberty, than investing the clergy with too much power. Their functions already gave them sufficient power without adding to it by legislative enactment. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the member for the city of Edinburgh, had asked the opponents of the measure, what he called a plain question, - namely, supposing in any city there was a school connected with the Established Church—a school connected with the Calvinists—a school connected with the Presbyterians, and a school connected with some other sect ; would any one point out to him what share of the public money would be taken by the Church of England, which could not be demanded by the other sects. Now, if the Right Hon. Gentleman had looked at the returns, he would have found that the total num- ber of grants made during the last three years, amounted to 149,000/., of which 141,0001. was received by the Es tablished Church. Could anything be more impartial than that ? but, no doubt, he should be told that the Dissenters might have had their share had they asked for it. True ; but the Dissenters were of a different temper to that. They did not separate from the Esta blished Church, to come whining and asking Govern- ment to support their educational establishments. They separated from the Church upon the principle that Go vernment had no right to appropriate the public funds for the purposes of religious instruction. Did they in this country exercise the impartiality of the United States? No, for in the United States, where they pro posed to endow ten religious sects, and nine tenths ob jected to it, they did not give the whole endowment to the tenth, but that was precisely the impartiality of which the Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken. The Dissenters would not take this money, and it must be clear to every Member of the House who had at all examined the principle of these sects, that any Noncon formists who hereafter touched one sixpence of this grant for 'the purpose of teaching in a Nonconformist school would for ever be debarred from protesting against the domination of the Church; but that was a pint upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman and the supporters of this measure always refrained to touch. There were many thousands of Dissenters in the country at this moment who had ever remained staunch and firm to their principles, and if the House did its duty it would pause before it adopted a system which offered to them now, in 1847, such an enormous temptation to abandon their principles. But it was hopeless to expect that the Dissenters would ever secede trom their long -ettled principles, and therefore all the advantages of this plan must of necessity be handed over to the Established Church, to add to her coffers and increase her power over the people. The Noble Lord then spoke of the course which it was proposed to adopt with respect to the Roman Catholics with regard to this question, and he did not think that he made a reply to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Finsbury, who referred to a passage in a former speech of the Noble Lord, where he spoke of "the sinews of the Catholics, and the gold of the Unitarian." He was also of opinion that a correct, a full explanation, had not been given of what had taken place between the Noble Lord and the secretary of the Wesleyan body. He had a question, however, to ask, and he hoped the Noble Lord or the Secretary of State would answer it. The question he would ask was, whether any communication had been made by the Government to any of the authorities or dignitaries of the Catholic Church, respecting the appointment of inspectors of the Catholic schools? If this had been the case then it followed of course that, notwithstanding what had been said with respect to the use of the authorised version of the Scrip tures, the Government had the intention of making grants to the Catholic schools. He believed if this view of the question were correct, there was something noble, something great in the Government coming forward and proposing a scheme for all classes.—(Cheers.) He had heard dissenters taunted with denying civil rights to the Roman Catholics, but such imputations were not borne out by facts, for had it not been for the exertions of dissenters, in the advocacy of their rights, they would not then have a seat in that House. His opinion was, that when the Minutes of Education were first brought under consideration, the Government were ready to open the grant to all classes. They did not appre hend that any agitation would be excited by these Mi nutes. When, however, it was feared that the Wesleyan body would strenuously oppose them, a negotiation was opened up through the aid of a friend, who was al ways at hand on these occasions, and it was arranged that, in consideration of their not opposing the scheme, the use of the authorised version of the Scriptures in the school should be made compulsory, and the Catholics should be excluded. An old writer said that the pleasure of being cheated was as great as to cheat. If this was so, he did not know whether the pleasure of the Noble Lord or that of the secretary of the Wes leyan body was the greater •, but he thought the former should have as much credit for statesmanship, as the latter for consistency or liberality.—(Hear.) He was not going to enter into the question of the unconstitu tional power of the Privy Council, the schemes of the system, or the political bribes which it held out, except to protest against the pernicious effects which would follow this attempt to create a new body of State pen sioners, and recipients of Government bounty. But the question was, whether it was politic or whether it was right to teach young children everybodys religion at everybodys expense ? If this principle was good, as far as the children were concerned, be did not see how they could refuse its extension to adults. The consequence he believed would be, that the Dis senting schools would be at an enormous disadvantage, as oompared with the Church of Eugland schools. Ho de precated the introduction of this question at the present time, when so many other subjects were pressing upon the attention of Parliament—difficulties which required the greatest minds to solve, have the effect, as might be expected, of stirring up all the fountains of strife and discord which existed in the country. He was sorry that this strife was excited and infused into tho consi deration of the question, as he believed that it would have the effect of retarding the progress in those re forms and improvements which were so much re quired in other things—(Hear, hear)—and prevent them from working together for the good of their common country.—(Cheers.) Believing, therefore, that the effect of the measure would be to aggrandize the power of the Established Church—that Church from which his forefathers had suffered persecution, and for the support of whose ministers the furniture of the church he himself had been attending for the last two years, had been sold. It was impossible for him to sup port the measure. Sir GEORGE GREY could assure the Honourable Gentleman, and the House, that no one regretted au differences subjectnoeswhi which e mo re than he did the infusion of religious strife or bickering into this debate, but, notwithstanding were brought into the consideration of it, one thing wa s very satisfactory , that the y no longer hear of the s objection of the da n g er of diffusing education among the s w t n ding entertained the various rio on s notwithstanding people, or of a ppr e hension being expressed that the ex tension of education v‘ould endanger the safety of the em pire. The Hon Gentleman, who had lust sat down, had spoken of this Con in such a way as to induce him (Sir George the eucadtiiffon different in the history of his country. This was the first time it has been proposed to remove the popular ignorance and diffuse the blessing of education. Mr. Whitbread brought in a Bill to that House for the Grey)qnes question as he ought to haveear! bean fear that he was not so well read purpose, and approbation of that House, but was and rece ived the lost the Lords, owing to the existence un f o rtunately of the apprehension which, he congratulated the House, another was brought in by Sir S. Romilly , w as not to be found at the present dayin connexion of education. But if there was strife infused into the discussio n on i t , the Govern ment had no cause to charge themselves with being the author s of it. The Honour able Gentle man also was not m ore ha ppy in his allusion to with the question wit44W ja etietnave consequence of the the Nonconform ists. He (Sir G. Grey) denied that resistance to endowments, and he really must again re quest the Hon. Gentleman to make himself more con versant with history before he pretends to enlighten a British Parliament on these subjects.—(Cheers.) He asked him was he ignorant of the names of Howe—of Baxter, and of Oliver Hayward, and others whose names, sufferings, history, and life were recorded in the history of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It was not resistance to endowment, but the Act of Uni formity who made these men Nonconformists. The Hon. Gentleman was equally unsuccessful also when he said that the great objection of the opponents to the grant was not that the Government should refrain from educating the people, on which so great stress had been laid last night by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh ; for what had been the prayer of a petition which he had presented, and which was signed by 500 ministers as sembled in conference, at Crosby Hall, on the 13th April ?—(Cheers,) (The Right Hon. Baronet then read the prayer of the petition, calling upon the Govern ment not to interfere on the subject of education.) lie would call the attention of the Hon. Member to a series of resolutions passed at a meeting held at Liver pool, at which Dr. Raffles presided, to the effect that voluntary exertions were amply sufficient for the pur pose of educating the people, and protesting against any Government interference with their education. He thought the Honourable Member for Durham would not refuse to admit that the principle distinctly laid down in these resolutions was, that the Government should not interfere with the education of the people. He did not think that it was necessary to discuss that ques tion in the House. The present state of education in the country was of itself a sufficient proof that the Go vernment ought not to stand aloof from this subject. He would remind the Hon. Member of the eloquent lan guage of Robert Hall whom, no doubt, the Hon. Member would believe. to be a great authority among, the Nonconformists, his language was, " that the great body of the people are the basis of the great pyramid of society, which so long as it stands will stand whole; but in which if there is but a rent it will affect the stability of the whole fabric. What higher, what worthier object, then could a Govern ment propose, or come within its legitimate duty, than to endeavour to foster and encourage the means best calculated to promote the important end of raising the moral, religious, and intellectual condition of the great mass of the people of this country.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Member for Nottingham had said that neither in religion nor in education was it the duty of the Govern ment to interfere. The very reverse of this doctrine had been repeatedly affirmed by the House. In the month of February, 1843, Lord Ashley moved for an address to the Crown to take into consideration the best means of diffus ing the blessings of moral and religious education among the working classes of the country. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) gave his cordial concur rence to the motion. His Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) also supported the same measure; and not one Hon. Member opposed the motion. The Hon. Member for Coventry last year brought forward the same principle, and founded a motion of the same character with respect to education in Wales. The lion. Member for Durham did not object to that motion.—(Hear ' hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet then went on to read an extract from the Leeds Mercury, which appeared in that journal on the 18th of March, 1843, upon the subject of factory education, brought forward by Sir J. Graham, to the effect that hi those towns or villages where there were both churchmen and dissenters there should be two schools instituted by the Government, one on the principle of the National So ciety and the other on the principles of the British and Foreign School Society. He must say that after read ing that article he did not contemplate that so great an opposition would have been raised by the Nonconformists against the present measure. Allusion had been made to the conduct of the Free Church of Scotland, but they had not upon all occasions refused the aid of the Govern ment, and in the present instance, although there were some of its members who opposed the measure, still they did not wish to oppose it upon the grounds of those per sons who joined in the agitation with which the Hon. Member for Durham was identified. Mr. Baines thought, in 1843, that Lord Ashley had painted too dark a picture of the want of education in the manufacturing districts, and that he might have found a greater want nearer home, which he urged, by the aid of statistics, in a letter to Lord Wharncliffe, who was then at the head of the Council. But had this state of things changed? It had not, for every day, brought Forward new pictures of vice. During the discussion which had already taken place in that Ifousa, two things had been admitted—first, that education itself was good; and, secondly, that the Government was bound to exert itself to extend it amongst the people. The Noble Lord the First Commissioner of the Woods and Forests (Lord Morpeth) said, there were three courses open to be pursued; but he (Sir George Grey) thought there were but two, and that the question of placing the whole education of the people entirely in the hands of the Church was not clearly before them—it was a tertium quid which he should throw aside altogether. The two courses, were the plan proposed by the Right Hon. Gentle man the Member for Bath, and the plan proposed by the Government. The one was this—that they would esta blish an entirely new system of education, not regarding the differences of religion in the vast number of schools. in connexion with the different denominations: thus bringing all the people into one system in which all reli gious differences would be disregarded, and the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ceckermouth (Mr. Aglionby) admitted that the only fault in the Government plan was that it did not accomplish this object, and that it was the duty of the State to promote the education of the people. But such a plan as this would have been utterly imprac ticable, and would not have been acceptable to any de nomination, none of which desired entirely to exclude religion from their schools. With respect to the other plan—the Government plan—he would adopt the descrip tion given of it by the Noble Lord, the Member for Liverpool, who stated that the scheme was not a new one, but simply an attempt to improve the existing system. It was not proposed to supersede any of those means which at present existed for the education of the people, but was intended to raise the character of the education given in those schools, and at the same t i me to raise the position of the schoolmaster. Since the Go vernment had proposed grants of money for the purposes of education 3,000 schools of various denominations had received aid. The lion, Gentleman the Member for Nottingham (Mr. Gisborne) seemed to think that the control of the schools would be placed in the hands of the Government, and that the voluntary system would receive a check ; but it would do no such thing, as it would simply aid the existing means of education and promote as much as possible voluntary exertions, and render them more valuable. The question, therefore, to be asked was, what was best to be done under exist ing circumstances ? The Noble Lord, at the head of the Government, said he did not propose the scheme as a per fect one, adding that it was no objection to his plan that it did not accomplish all he could wish. What were the objections which had been urged against it? It had been urged, and the Hon. Gentleman had repeated it, that the teaching of the catechism was forced by law. Now he (Sir G. Grey) denied that that was a portion of the measure. The Government merely wished to aid exist ing schools, and to leave the system of education and religion taught in them untouched. He believed that, in connexion with the National Society, there were schools, in which the good sense and liberal feeling of the Society provided education for the children of parents who were desirous that they should only receive secular education. The Hon. Gentleman said that the inspectors were to be appointed with the concurrence of the Archbishop of Canterbury, such a thing had never been contemplated by the Government, but that was an argument on which he would not detain the House. Then, with respect to the statement that it would de stroy the systems of education existing at present, he would only say, that it would, foster and encou rage those educational societies, and endow them with new life and vigour. He then came to the mea sure which referred to the inequality of the plan. That inequality was not the result of any interference with the right of the Dissenters. That objection had been made upon the ground that of these grants, by far the greater portion had gone to the Church of England. That did not result from design—there was nothing in it to show any partiality in the system—the members of the Church of England greatly exceeded in number the members of the Protestant Dissenting body, and it must, therefore, follow, that the grants to them were larger; and in addition to that, a feeling had been at work during the last two or three years, which had produced an objection on the part of some classes of Dissenters to receive these grants of money, and therefore it was rather hard to state as an objection to the measure, that the money had not been divided equally. He wished to notice a question which the Hon. Gentleman had asked with regard to the inequality of this measure with refer ence to the Catholics. On the subject of Roman Catho lics, he would only say that he was bound to admit—and he did it in great sincerity—that with regard to that sect there was great ground of complaint. He was per fectly ready to admit that there were parts of this coun try—he would take the instance of Manchester—in which a number of Roman Catholics resided in a body, and where those employed in fictories were compelled by the factery law to allow the attendance of their children at these schools, and at church, where the Protestant catechism was taught. He admitted that it was a hardship of which they had a right to com plain, and of the alternative of being excluded from the benefits of and participation in these grants made by her Majesty's Government. He could only say, wi refer ence to this subject, that after having heard and lis tened —as he believed every one else in the House listened — with great attention and pleasure to the speech last of his s Noble Friend behind him, (Lord Arund el with regard to these objections , he cou l d not helptfheereil ing a desire to contribute as much as poss i ble to removal. He must remind the House that this was not an inequality arising under these Minutes of Council ; for there was not more money voted for these purposes this year than the last. It was true that the Catholics had not been excluded by name. and he was not aware that any distinction had been made at all in the applica tion of the money except in the grants in 1839. That minute to which reference had been made, was one which required the use of the authorised version of the scrip tures in the instruction in these schools, and although there seemed to be some doubt as to whether the correct interpretation of the Scriptures was the authorised ver sion, he was sure that the Committee of Council, which prepared that minute, and the Committee which acted on it, had, in applying the term authorised version to the Scriptures named in the minutes, they had no intention of excluding what might by some be termed the real translation; yet they were compelled to adhere to the minute, or they might have laboured under the imputation of obtaining grants of money from Parliament for the purpose of applying them to another. He rejoiced that the subject had come before the House, and he rejoiced at the feeling which had been ex pressed in the course of that debate, that the exclusion of the Roman Catholics was unjust and ought to be removed. He had not hears sin" the begilklaing of th at debate one single Igentleman rise and say that the Roman Catholics ought to be excluded from any participation in the benefit ot'' this grant. There was no use in concealment in this matter, for in some instances Government must defer to popular feeling in looking at these difficulties. There existed in the minds of the people a great apprehension with regard to the extension of the Roman Catholic religion. He himself not long since was not very far from participating in that apprehension, but he now avowed that he would not be a party to any imposition of any principle of exclusion, or any unfair or unequal mode of dealing with any class of persons whatever they might be with regard to this grant.—(Loud cheers.) He affirmed that if these grants were to be made, the Roman Catholics ought to participate in them, and no one would more sincerely rejoice to see the difficulties which stood in the way of that participa tion removed—no one would more cordially co-operate with his Noble Friend in endeavouring to frame these minutes—so as to bring the Roman Catholics under the operation of a rule by which they might par ticipate in these grants in those cases in which they , were in large numbers collected together, and under cir cumstances which certainly would deserve a very con siderate and especial notice. He had not touched upon all the objections which had been urged against this measure, and were he to do so, he felt tbat he should only trespass upon the time and patience of the House. So little had been said in opposition, except upon the details of the measure, and the imputation of an im perfection which they admitted, namely, that the measure did not go far enough, and also of its not being a final measure, it would not be just in him to occupy the time of the House any longer in adverting to the various obser vations which had been made by gentlemen who objected to the provions of the measure, and who intended to support the motion and amendment of the Hon.. Gentl eman the Member for Finsbury. He hoped that the tole rance with which the measure had been received in that House would be felt by the country. In that House they were removed from all troublesome associa tions and the pressure of party, and where they consulted only for the general interest of the community at large. In the opinions which had been expressed in that House, it appeared that the main question at issue was not with regard to the principle of the measure, but its detailed operation. I pray them (continued the Hon. Member) to think of the danger which their conduct may thus promote--of the great increase which is taking place in our population, and of the consequences of not making any provision for the increased wants of the people as respects education. I again address them in the language of the same eminent individual to whom I before alluded—l mean the late Robert Hall :—" These are not the times in which it is safe for a nation to repose on the lap of ignorance. While the world is impelled in opposite directions, and the seeds of mutation are thickly sown, the improvement of the mass of the people will be our grand security, in the neglect of which, the politeness, the refinement, and the knowledge accumulated in the higher orders, weak and unprotected, will be exposed to imminent danger, and perish like a garland in the grasp of popular fury. ' Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of the times.'" This is the language of that eminent man, whose name is so much respected by all ; and I would ask them, after such words, not to endeavour further to induce us to stand still as mere spectators of the moral evil, without making any attempt to check the moral pestilence that is spreading around us wider and wider every day, and without any attempt to instil moral health and moral vigour into the vitals of the community.—(Loud applause.) Mr. HINDLEY thought that the dissenters had not been fairly treated in the opening observa tions of the Noble Lord last night. He would ask the House to look upon the dissenting bodies, and to look what they had done. They had spread the blessings of knowledge through the land, and he therefore asked the House to look with a favourable eye upon their exertions. He wcs sanguine in 1839 that the voluntary principle would be sufficient for the educa tion of the people. He was at the head of a board which had collected 120,0001. for the purposes of educa tion, and though he found many bright examples of the munificence of the people, still if he was asked, was the voluntary principle sufficient, he would be obliged to say conscientiously that it was not. He could of course, instance many glorious instances of indivi dual liberality. There was one which he could not re frain from relating ; it was the case of a gentleman's servant, who gave Si. for himself and 5/. for his wife as their subscription to the cause of the education of the people. It was only four years since the plan had been brought forward, and he thought that the Government might have given it a longer and a graver trial. He felt exceedingly jealous on two grounds ; he desired that the interference of the Government should not meddle with the civil rights of the people.—(Hear, hear.) The second point which he would be anxious to guard against, was that no partiality should be shown by the Government, and on this point he did think that the Dissenters had some reason to be jealous. (Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord believe the Church catechism himself ? Supposing he did not. Why, he was calling on the schools to teach that which he did not believe himself.—(Hear.) He thought that the Dissenters had a prior right to be represented in a case of this kind, instead of the appli cation of the grant being left entirely to the Council and the Government. The system of pensioning off school masters had also his decided objection, on account of the mode in which it was proposed to be carried out. Such a grant ought not to depend on minutes of education at all. There ought to be an Act of Parliament for a sys tem of national education, instead of attempting to do it by this system of minutes, which were changing every year; the next year, he had no doubt but that the minutes would be different to what they are now. In fact, no security could exist under such a mode. He hoped the time would come when Churchman and Dissenter would meet for works of public good, but at present they must deal with the state of things as they found it, and there fore it was that he must vote against the proposition of the Government. _ _ _ On the motion of Sir W. CLAY, the debate was ad journed till Thursday next. PUNISHMENT OF VAGRANTS (IRELAND) BILL. On the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, this Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday week. AGRICULTURAL TENANT RIGHTS BILL. Mr. PUSEY moved the postponement of the Agriculs tflral Tenant Right Bill till Wednesday, May 9. After some conversation this was agreed to. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Mr. HAWES laid on the table a copy of a dispatch from the Governor; of Newfoundland, communicating the grant of 5001 . for the relief of the distress in Ireland .- The House then adjourned at Twelve o'Clock. PRINTERS' PENSION SOCIETY. The anniversary dinner of this society was held yesterday, at the London Tavern; Luke James Hansard, Esq., in the chair. The chairman was supported on his right by Lord Dudley Coutts Stuart, the Rev. Dr. Stebbing, M`Donnell. Esq., Dr. Spurgin, M.D., &c., and on his left by Shackell, Esq., &c. the vocalists engaged on the occasion were Mr. Ransford, Mr. Kenny ; Mr. Robertson, and Mr. Moody ; the pianoforte accompaniments were ably executed by Mr. Ransford, jun. On the removal of the cloth, .A'on nobis was sung. The toasts of " The Queen and his Royal Highness Prince Albert, her Majesty's Consort," " The Prince of Wales, the Queen Dowager, and the rest of the Royal Family," " The Duke of Cambridge, Patron of the Society," and ." The Stationers' Company," having been drunk with an enthu siastic feeling, The CHAIRMAN rase to propose the toast of the evening. The toast which he was about to propose was one which he was sure required no preface or apology ; it was " Prosperity to the Printers' Pension Society," the object of which was to aid those who, having laboured in their calling, were overtaken by the pressure of physical disease, or other eke cumstances over which they had no control, from supporting themselves in their latter days. The object of the society was to give support to decayed members of a body of men without whom the master printers were as nothing—with• out whom the authors themselves would be unable to make t t h h e eir boo co at c i a a i n e s uia t t o isans the w p o u u b ld lic, be an v d oid w . itho l u t without was to sellers 3mu nc ' the labour of the composito r s and p ressmen that so much was owing, and whose benefit they were that night assembled to promote. Compositors and pressmen, from the nature of their occupation, were in early life liable to be crip pled in limb, and frequently in after life to lose the blessing of sight. By the contribution of five shillings annually, those who were subscribers had been enabled to assist in the good work of this excellent society, of continuing pensions of twelve guineas per annum to males, and eight guineas per annum to females, who were pensioners on the list. The compositors and pressmen, from the nature of their profession, had the opportunity to become the very embodiment of great intellect. But for the great machine with which they were all connected, they knew that the great blessings of the Holy Gospel would not have been spread so widely amongst us as it had been. The Hon. Gentleman adverted in glow ing terms to the unobserved but never-ceasing toil of the compositors and pressmen, and concluded by proposing the toast, which was received with reiterated cheers. efficientl to this country if those w ho hi c c o h nt w ri as b d Lord DUDLEY STUART said it would indeed b w ea great re proachgood were Dot y to the promotion of everything more or less indebted to sorrow. All classes of society were d coinpositors. The Noble protected and sheltered the hour of their necessity and the labours of the printers n in very glowing ' terms. thanks. Lord concluded by proposing t h e a "Health of the Chairman," The GRAMMAR return ed Thesong of the warmest a The Oak and the Ivy," composed by Mr. R ans ford, was given by that gentleman in a manner w hi c h justly elicited a pplause. The son g it se lf pos sesses great merit. On an encore bei ng demanded, Mr. Ransford sang " The Monks of Old," by Glover ; and here the song was received with even greater enthusiasm, and we are bound to recommend both these productions to the patronage of those who have the voice to sing them. The humour Th e c added nAutm m AN uc p h ro to po t s h e e d eeff. t latter, especially, is an a d m i ra bl e song, and Mr. Ransford's e Church and Dr. Steb bing." Dr. STERISING returned thanks, and, in prefacing a speech of great eloquence, said that if he had been promoted to a bishopric he could not have been more snprised than at being called upon to respond to the toast. In speaking of the Printers' Pension Society, the Rev. Gentleman said that he •wed much indeed to the printers; to them he owed not only the income he enjoyed, but the best feelings he possessed. The CHAIRMAN proposed, in a very able "speech, " The Press, the foundation of knowledge, the bulwark of freedom, and the founder of the three estates and its preserver.". Mr. SHACKELL returned thanks. Lord DUDLEY Coterrs STUART announced donations from many lady authoresses who had applied to him, which amounted to 35/. 16s. 6d. Among the subscriptions were 251. from his Royal High. ness Prince Albert, who had consented to become patron o 4 the society ; 50/. from the chairman, &c. The total amoune of subscriptions was 3211. 16s. Among the donors was the name of Miss Jane Porter, thi authoress of " Thaddeus of Warsaw," from whom a letter ti t , Lord Dudley Stuart was read. Want of space prevents ire giving a longer account of the proceedings. The dinner woo excellent. Air. Higgs officiated as toast master, and went throught his duties in good style. .11 The Earl and Countess Granvillehave arrived in town from Paris. t o ked no of land the 1 the , be ~ per ?,yilg Ile ig• hg tt.er d to .Ihi of the vied ;ion ad- WO Pie cla le' Ist. Li"