The Sun. — London, England, 1804-03-29 00:00:00

• Troops now in out Aer'flee .1) - ** . :-AI s v . cittM 14_1te at O*3P then; and in addition_ to _this was to be c-;nsi" tiered the levies-now .making- in. ttnr eAmeaica n and W est ,lndian posses s i ons ,., which I should esti mate .at 4000 mots, : ,the,,l ) e. sao • the prop r i ety , o f thista,. n our Irlitio to o , Reguiar Force, then : the _next question. to be censidered is, first, by what dared r4 - ..,:liutri.you can effect and encourage that .augmentations; aad. secondly, what thatcollat obt.eeral means you can u se i n. t h e attainment of With regard to the .first of these points, I hope. that the House will not be dissatisfied with me if I do • -not propose. any ra di cal c h ange in the eonsaroetion of the Army, if I d o not now enter into the consi - deratio n of the question, whether it would or would not be right to introduce the princip!e_ of limited service into our Ar my . I by no means wish to contend, that this is not a question very well de scrying of consideration; it is one which I haVe Considered, and upon which I have formed my opi nion, and whenever the subjea is fairly taken up, I have no ohjetion to state it, but I am sure it is a •subjea which the House would not listen to, • unless it had been previously considered by the 'Military part of the Administration, It is a subjea that not only requires great considera tion, but, even if it should be adopted, requires a great deal of time to carry into effect. It has been adopted in the Austrian Service, that is 10 say, the principle was adopted immediately atter the Treaty of Luneville, but it was determined that it should not take effect till 18 0 4. But lam sure I need not state the material difference that subsists betw een t h e Austrian Service and ours ; the Troops of Austria are all concentrated within her otvn Con tinental Dominion*, and are not spread, as : i t e Troops o f G reat Britain necessarily are, over is- With regard then to tant Co nt i nental possessions. the direct means that we ought to adopt for en.. Couraging and effeaing this augmentation, my opi nion is, after the best consideration I can give the aubjeat, that the best way would be to remove all competition with the Recruiting Service, and to put a stop to all great bounties, which were not 'only a great grievance, by obstrualing the Re cruiting Service, but encouraged desertion. This may be considered as a great admission on the part of Ministers, and as an acknowledgment of the .jastice of -the reasoning which some Gentlemen have always made use of. But I cannot con. hider (the. question in that point of view, I think . the measures adopted by Ministers last year were right but the question is, whether these ,ftleastres' lie necessary now ? -But if I am right :in my opinion, that _this Clampetitio n ,ought to be • atopped a* the next . question is,. whence does this competition arise ? it arose from the Militia and ;frotnethe'Arthy adf Reserve: With regard to the lailitiii, ' the .coMpetition. certainly was Arery great last year, because the whole Militia was to be -.Taiga ;Tiblit 'now . the Militia .was very nearly cam viett,lotr.thert. did not want to complete the Eng liSh Militia 5000 men, and the Irish was complete within' tio, The ,Else:.-Mil itia , 5 00 0 men necess a ry.. to co mpl ete ,for . ' :Army i .forming °-"Y Country a competition with the .coutai in n A ountry asfesuch extent as this, and knowab g such . a nutpber of fighting Ten as we Y the official returns it .• • ' I a W. 1 contains , s -ttnuptit4iol) is' hardly '_woßtil noticing We then ecorneetb 'the- .Army. of -.Re . serve. - 'hough I still maintain my opinion.ihatii A le rmy ‘Of',Reserve ~,kills.were salutary antiuseful * , yet now as they have in agieat measise•hatrale 'tired which w . * • _ as expel from them, it becomes necessary to consider whetlir their operation should be-any -longer caniinueds The Hill to which I allude passed on the 6th of l - o tuy ast , - arealie 20th of August there were raised under that • 'kill t 5,905 men; on the . 2 amounted to 4th of S eptem b er they 24.7 r 01; and in the month of N.)vein. ter lasho 25,489 men, le will ask any man in .._ I his - House to cell me by what oth er means a simi a tim e ? Jar b o d y of men could have been raised in so short The total number of men in Great Britain and Ireland raised under the Army .of Reserve Bill , . , waa..305841 men, of whom no less than 10,646 had asnaered.f or general service into the Regimetits of -11ieti-ile. Otering the time se men w ere ra i s i ng, I the admit that the'Recruitng- for the Army had not Increased ; but 'on-the other hatid,-I contend it has pot diminished,- tiotwithst d' ' . ' an :rig all this competi . !ion, lam also read to admit, that for the last two or three months, the Arm y of Reserve has ... , scarcely maintained itself, that is to say, the num ber of Recruits have been fully balanced by the number of Deserters, for I am sorry tO say, that • • the praaice of desertion has got to a very great pitch in the neighbourhood of the Metropolis, and this has been very much increased by the very high 'bounties that have been given, and at the same ,time the• praftice of Crimping has increased.- .In order to remedy the these evils, I would propo se as Tep - most e effeflual means to attai n t h at objea, not to thcr r i for moate Army of R eserve B ills, but to suspend a limited ti rue ; and with regard to those `Counties Which uot4 have not f urn i shed their regular • of saen, I would propose that they should pay pecuniary compenSation according to the number of men,they wereakficient. This cannot be.con sidered as unjust, because those Counties are now ratthicaittaaieity heavy fines, for not having com ated their number' a then. This is one of the measure s which rinean to propose, and I think the, Army of Reserve Bills shoul 1d he po st d" in Ire. and as well poneas in Great Britain. If • the' House . .:. t attould7think p roper to adopt this' prapoSition, it Would - h ave t h e, immediate effea - of d estroy in g a ll e . competition, an d consequently of reducin g t h e great *ties. It Would also, I think, put an end .to the praaice of Crimi n D esertion.---W p g , and prevent ith tegard • to the ot h er means -Which I _propose _to atiaspt, it is now• not ne c.essary to enter •• Into any d eta il upon the sub- JeEt ; by the plan I have proposed, the whole Recruiting Service will be throw n into the hands of the Army, and i n t h at case they will have an op . , portunity of regulatin g t h e Bounties. With regard to Bounties, it is _they opinion of the -most experienced Officers I have conversed with, that these , high Boun t i e s•ar e b y no means necessary; it is sufficient if they are liberal, but the - great point is that they should be fixed and certain ; - it is now proposed that .therattauld not exceed -tenuineas. Is a aae!te m g This certainly Pio ilitary question, and i t i s upon t h e opi n of the most ex p erie nced:Military Men. that I ~,_, ha ve :eon ve tied with that 4 ha ve , 4*.nimt ritwoOkei t I think Ilco, tho• some means should be takers -so ; recruit the Army of Reserve, out of those who - are not fit tor foreign service,. or who do .not choose to t engage for it. I have troubled the House solongi that I: hope it will not be.-necessary to .occepy much more of their time. With regard to the coio. lateral means, the first is that which is recommend; ed in .the King's Message, -for by- . bringing over. to,ooo of the. Irish Militia to• this • Country .it will enable us to set aoliberry to,boo' of our Tioops, and to,render them disposeable for foreign service. But in order to pre - vent any defalcation on the Irish Establishinent, I mean: to propose that the Irish Mi . litia; which now-only consists of x B,ocso men, should be carried to the point at which they were fast War, that is to say 28,000 men. I should therefore pro pose, in rise first instance, to m)re for an Address to His I\ .!slesty, in the terms to which I alluded in the commencement of my Speech.: I should then move for leave to bring in a Bill, to enable His Majesty to accept this offer of Service from the Irish Militia ; next, I should propose a Bill for augaienting the Irish Militaa ; and lastly, I should propose to bring in a Bill for suspending the Army of Reserve Bill for one . year. I am not aware that there is any thing else with which it is necessary to trouble the House, except only upon one point, which I omitted to mention before, but which ought by no means to be lost sight of, I mean the *state of the Volunteer Force. By the latest returns I have seen, after criticalinspeftion, the number of men, effeaual and present, was, of Cavalry 27,000, Artillery 4000, and Infinity 300,0t50 ; these were not Men upon Paper, but serfeditse and present. The Cavalry were all, of course, completely armed, the Infantry in all the Maritime counties were also armed, as were the greater part of those in the Interior Counties. I think I can venture to say, that cf the Volunteer Infantry, 250,000 are completely armed, and, from the great exertions that are making, I am sure the remainder will in a very short time have their muskets, and in case of any sudden emergency, they might be armed with Pikes, great numbers of which had been issued OUT. Whatever Gentlemen may say of this Volunteer Force, I contend that a large proportion of them are as well disciplined as the Militia were at the Commencement Of the last War; and it would be but candid, if Gentlemen, when they spoke of the Volunteers, would recol. left -that they were in a very different state from that in which they were five or six months ago ; but it has been the constant fashion to represent them as if they were no farther advanced in disci pline than they were when they were first embodied. In addition to this force, there was. .2e,000 Sea.Fen ,cibles, who would, I have no doubt, prove them selves of the greatest service, if ever the Enemy *should make: an attempt at invading this Country, with. their , boasted Flotilla!'' He concluded with moving, the Address, , The Address having been read from the Chair, Mr. r trr, " I do not rise to trouble the Rouse With 'any discussion At 'present ; the subjea is indeed well deserving.the attention of the House ; but the more .proper period for discussing it will be when the different topics enlarged upon by t'oe Right Hon. Gentleman to-night shall be brought forward in the shape of Bills, when I shall take an opportunity, of delivering my .sentiments more at large. - To - fhii Address I concur in common with the House, and all those who ree - ollea with pleasure the cordiality and zeal of the Militia of this Country, who'set to those of Ireland an example which has excited their emulation, and which they now, so much to their hOnbur imitate ; this is a subjea on which there can 'be no' ifference of opinion, but in which we most all feel equal delight—l do not think this an oc. casion on which it is necessary to enter at all into any discussion of the very interesting and important lOpics with which the - Right Hon. Gentleman pre ,faced his.MOtion for this address. I beg leave to say,. that having expressed in the course of the dis cussion of the suhjesl now wider our c insider_ anion, myself dissatisfied in Many respeas as to the state of the Military Defence, and not being able to ,relieve my mind upon the whole of that sublet}, I must repeat that I retain the same sentiments still— I will however freely own that I am in many re speas satisfied in what I heard to_night; I insist how ever declare also, that whenever I have ventured to trouble the House upon this subjea, I never diffeted from the Right Hon. Gentleman in one proposition which his speech to night proved, namely, ,that its far as numbers gn, there is no subjea of blame to be attached any where ; it has never been contested by me that the numbers raised in the course of the present War are not abundantly sufficient to meet any view which any reasonable person can entertain of the necessity for cur defence. How far, in the raising such numbers, merit is to be allowed to His Majesty's Government—How much they have done to procure the proper means to improve such num bers and render them efficient by discipline—How much encouragement has been held out to some descriptions of persons composing a part of those numbers—How far Ministers have proceeded to give to the Country the benefit it might have had in proportion -to such numbers raised by aftive exer irons and .prudent policy, are questions which are not peces,sarily to be mixed io this Debate. I shall not introdUee any topics of that nature at pre sent ; whatever share Government may have had in • producing these numbers of men for the general De fence of the Country, the ardour, the zeal, and the energy of the Country, is manifested more than even the numbers can convey, and this affords to us the best pledge for our security in thehour of attack, anti consciousness of invincible strength in ,the hour of danger, a secur i t y i n d ee d aga i nst an y d a ng er by which this Country may be threatened, and an assurance of triumph over any difficulty with which we may have to contend. But there is another point which cannot be cured by zeal, and that is, whether the energy of the persons thus raised has beets well di. retied ? Whether they have been brought forward and improved in discipline so as to tender their natural Force most serviceable and made most available to the security of their Country ? That is.a point involving matters which it may be ex- . tremely interesting and highly important to discuss hereafter at a convenient opportunity, but I will not introduce these topics into discussion to embarrass the subjea of the present day ; I shall leave them to subsequent occasions, of which dittrer win bet -mar+ • , sihen -C3rile he. fo'e us), but—while.. I say • I feel some satisfaCtion ;from aNbat beard to-night from the Right Hon. iGtnilenjart e I mean, that my satisfy Lion arises ;chiefly from theatnount of our Fore called into ac- Aivi:y for our Service, and the sal and energy which the Country has manifested. for that purpse. in no part of the Country du I apprehend any . defi ciency in zeal and energy ; and with the magnitude of our Force, in a colledive sense, I am satisfied— . on none of these points - have I any anxiety ; but on the subject of rightly improving such Force by dis cipline, and rendering it more and more efficient fdr its purpose, have I day after day expressed my anxiety in this House, and this is the great point on which I wish the Public may never have reason to 4 -egret that more had not been done early in this case. Upon that matter I only throw out this as a hint, for at present I shall say no more upon it ; neither will I enter minutely into other matters at this moment ; I would just observe in passing, that with resped to the Militia, I am of opinion care should be taken it be not made use of in a way that May impede the progress of the Regular Army or any other disciplined force; and unless I shall see occasion to change my opinion, I shall have to state more at large my sentiments upon this subjed here after, and to submit that under the present circum stances of the Country is w ill be desirab:e as vacancies shall occur that they shall be filled up in a different mode than has been hitherto adopted ; and if they are raised by Ballot as formerly, yet that they shall soon be put in a state in which when trained, they may be at liberty to enlist as much as they chuse, as men do from the Militia and alto from the Army of Reserve into the Regular Service. I enter as strongly as the Right Honourable Gentleman him self can do into the propriety of preventing as much as posSible the competition of the services, that of raising men for the Militia and the 'Army of Re serve interfering with the recruiting of the Regular Army—l enter also into the spirit, and fed the absolute necessity of a measure that may crush that abominable prattice of crimping—l wish very much to aee some measure adopted, to relieve the Country from.the great weight and pressure of those high and enormous , bounties, which now have been too long given for men in the Militia and the Army of Reserve,. which has, in addition to this evil, another of considerable magnitude attached to it, that of temptation to desertion ; but doubt very much whether you would not prevent a great deal of progress in the service, if you did not only allow persons from all services to enlist as they chose into the Regular Service, but also supply the vacancy in some manner like that which is now done in the Army of Reserve, and ren dering that species of vehicle, by which to convey men who are trained and disciplined into the Regular Service..--I throw this out as a mere hint for consideration,' before the progress of the Army of Reserve is suspended. The Right Hon. Gentleman has not entered into any detail of the mode by which he means to raise the men ; if he can raise as many new Regiments and Battalions as may be . wanted by aired recruiting at moderate bounties, without having the circumstance of undue grants in consequence of it, I should be glad ; if there be reasonable hopes of such a plan, I should wish it' tO . be fried, and should most heartily wish it success. I do not say. how far it may or may not be advantageous to the Country to adopt a total suspen sion of the Army of Reserve fur a while, but I am strongly of opinion, that with a view to the success ftil augmentation of the Army, and the keeping it up effeetually in time of War, it must' be done by some measure that has, at least the effect of keep ing down Bounties, and that can never be accosts: plished until the present competition in the services shall have'been abolished. I think, however, that you cannot have the men with the saint prornptoe.ss, nor under the same discipline, without a measure somewhat partaking of the chara#er of your Artny of Reserve, and that will operate in different parts of the Counties more diredly.than any other. Some regulationt with regard to Substitutes, and to con fine the Bounties within a moderate compass will, T believe, be found more effeaual than any other mode. I think, however, that to supply the Army in this way, will be found a more effedual mode than that of the ordinary progress of Recruiting for the army in the first instance ; for. I have' been told by many men of experience, and I have found by my own, that men, as indeed it is natural we should expeCt without experience, are snore ready to enter into that species of service which is limited in extent and duration, ' which is the nature of the Army of Reserve, than' into that of a general service, which has no limits of time or place. This we all experienced in the course of the last war, in the Militia. We have al. ready found in this war that men have been ready to enter into the. Army of Reserve, independent of the bounty, on account of the service being limited in point of time ; and we have found that when men come together, and after they have acquired military `habits, they take inclinations from each other, and ate tempted by a natural spirit of courage and emu. lation.amOng their comrade's to extend their set. vices, and upon which they manifest a desire of going in the Regular. Army, and therefore I' believe that as a matter of permanent policy, as well as that of a temporary purpose, or immediate effort, you will find it prudent, instead of giving up the system of the Army of Reserve, to retain some thing of its principle, and indeed I colleted from the Speech we have just heard, it was not the in tention pf the Right Hon. Gentleman to give it up. altogether, hut only to suspend the pro . visions of it for a while. I should rather' think it better to shape the plan of the Army of Reserve differently from what it is at present, and to attach it afterwards, as as much as you may, to the Regular Force, by uniting it, by means of moderate bounties, to the, different Battalions, as second Regiments, or Bat talions; for, by this mode, you will have all the advantages .of local attachments, which men have, and the willingness they have to go together in almost . every service; this. will in a coirsides able degree be always the case , where men are raised by districts instead of being collected by a plan of general and indiscriminate tecruitiog; and the de. ficiency may be supplied by fresh Ballot. I do not know whether I have not branched out 'further than was necessary to express my perfed acocies mee in the present addreas,, rescrvipg, at~ do, the peest 1 - 41 erytirc„.fre,elorn to ne,ak. : ol the f erent measures when tiley' come before -tliz but I have not stated these sentiments oroptni in opposition to the Motion now before theJlo;,;,s;:'f• ' but I thought it necessary_ to thrOvi but thc'et ideas, rest it should be supposed by my silence had altered my opinion in some respects,' quence of my seeming to acquiesce in all that - 11:y . been stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman. (.art (:;e contrary, from what I have said now, I'trust it pearS to the House, that nothing which I have t - ak:. the liberty, on many former occasions, to rceotronc . in our Military System, has been it, the least grec •altered by any Proposition which I have he.,,,; to-night." _ _ _ _ Mr. WINDHAM. " As there will be a consi. derable interval between the present neri , d and :1;2., final discussion of the subjeti now before the I-louse: I shall not be under the necessity of detaining t: c House so long as I otherwise should pedlars feel ! t my duty to do ; hut it is necessary for me to ol , serve, that although the Right Hon. Gentlemsn'lno; gone into the whole measure at once, o l n a genets: statement of the matter which he is hereafter to pro. pose, which may therefore be hereafter discussed i yet those who feel like myself, most he anxious not to appear to assent to all he states, and therefore I shall say a few words on the soli' 4 - of the Message from His Majesty, and the Address proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. There cannot be the least hesitation to assent to ths first, and indeed what may he called the formal part of the Address to His Majesty, which returns thanks to His Majesty for his gracious comma, nieation ; as little ohjettion can there be made to the acknowledgement of the zeal of the Militia of Ire land, or of the People of that Country in the coin: mon cause; but it remains for me, and for those who think with me, to say, we are not prepared to adopt measures to carry into execution any partkular plaii until we have had an, opportunity of considering what that plan is. The first and leading objeaion I have to accepting the present offer of the Irish Militia ii an objedioo to the principle of the thing, that is, because by it a body of men assembled for efficient . military purposes ire to go beyond • the terms ol their original set vice. I do not say that no semi;_ Lion of things can do away this objection, because there may be a condition of things which will Oil) away all ohjetlions of whatever kind; but I say, that condition of things does not exist at this mu, went : and an objenion it always will remain, let the condition of things be what it may; and the only ques. Lion is, whether such a condition exists as to overrule that objeiaion ? I am of opinion, that in the pre,ent case, that condition has no such force at the preseor moment. I felt this ohjeaion strongly, at the time the English Militia made their offer toga to Leland, and however useful, and perhaps decisive that melt,. sure was upon the occasion to which it wa's applied, certainly . that measure was not carried into tiled without producing the inconveniences which I have alluded to, and that I took the lihetry of stating 4 that time, I am confirmed, instead of being shaken; in the opinion I then entertained upon that subjsti, for indeed the taking such a service as this, although offered, is nothing more than that which, may, to some degree, be called a departure from good faith —it is not a breach of good faith, but it is ,a sort of misprision of good faith, for although the lead ing part of such a service as this may be volun tary, and the offer spontaneous, yet, as to the remainder, it .may be absolutely compulsory. If a part of a large military hotly make the 'offer, how is the remainder to refuse it ? You do not seem to kno% - v the possible, nor seem very clearly to see the probable consequences of such measures as these, for there are many evils attending them ; one of these evils, besides the point which partakes of the natufe, of a hreach of faith, is this, it has a very danger ous eff.. ti upon military di-eipline, especially upon such a force as that of a militia force; and to illus trate this I should like to ask Gentlemen. who wens, to Ireland with our militia, what past as they were, going there with their regiments; whether they did not hear some things that were utterly subversive of discipline? I would ask, whether t he acceptance of such a service is not a species of suspension of discipliue ? Putting yourself into a situation to ask a favour of a military body of men, for a favour this is, cannot be said to be free from danger. It may he said, I that this is only renewing what I formerly said; that may be true r and yet the observation may ri,4 have lost its force, because it happens to have beers an old one, and the obje,ttion may he as geod now as ' if it had never been before made ; besides, I do not see that Ireland is less in danger than Great Britain,. When you say you let loose a part of your dispose_ able Force in this Country, that is to say, that yia t have so far a power to employ as you please, the Re gular Force which you could not otherwise detach, you must remember that precisely to the same amount, you must Make fast your Force in Ireland. I have by these measores pretty good testimony of the propriety of the opinions I have formerly given on these points. This asking favour where you ought only to corn mand; this begging of them, will have a b a d e ff e ct ; it will introduce ainong our military bodies a species of Saturnalia which may be extremely dangerous ; for which reasons, although 1 agree in the first part of the Address, as I have stated already, yet I dis sent from the latter part of it. I would really say no more for the present purpose, than that we should take the matter into our consideration, for I think we ought to reserve to ourselves the mode in whirls - we shall.succeed, at least until' we have lad Some . time to deliberate upon it, for we should not con sider the question as a mere transfer of Force from the one Country to the other ; but this; question involves a consideration of increas ing the Militia force of Ireland, a force which is not raised as in this Country by baltot ; asei this goes, like many other treasure, las which , ,s. and some .oil ft 'have . ueen constantly ohjening, to the .prejudice of increasing the Regular Army, and in that view it is particularly objedionable to in;. Many of the propositions of the Right Hon. Gentleman to night I cannot oppose, without giving up a great number. of opinions I, have delivered ors various former occasions in this House, and in which opinions J have been every, day more and wore con_ winced, as .the sobje4s have been presented to.my mind ; such as chat of the. propriety of putting an end to the competition of the services by which ,bounties have been Incicascd ; t he takin g ;1 4 waucr