The Sun. — London, England, 1853-05-06 00:00:00

titirb 724it60n IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. esterday • did not sit. being Ascension Day, the House of Lords 1101JSE OF COMMONS—{YESTERDAY.) The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock. NEW MEMBER. prZton.RN RAMSDEN took the oaths and his seat for The_followin PRIVATE BUSINESS. were rea a third time and passed : h---Efaslingden and Rawtenstall d Waterworks Bill, Leeds o: (1 C°. 2 ) Bill, Price's Pat en t C an dl e C om p a ny (No. )411 Stafford s hi re Potteries Waterworks Bill, Wigan waterworks and Police Bill. and Madras Railway Company Bill was considered greed to. \ COMBINATION OF WORKMEN BILL. A3lOn th e motion of Mr. T. DIINCOMBE, the order of the on the thi rd reading of this bill was read for the pur- F u s n e e. f bei ng postponed- until Wednesday the let of S . WESTMINSTER BRIDGE. a " • MOLESWORTH moved for leave to bring in 14 to transfer Westminster-bridge, and the estates of iriC. Commissioners of Westminster-bridge," to the ssioners of her Majesty's Works and Public tio ne di ngs and to enable such last-mentioned Commis toiremove the present bridge, and to build a new " A uge on or near the site thereof. Agreed to. Sir p PETITIONS. Pllrst°Prietn.r74anitY presented a petition from the editor, p~printers of a newspaper in Lincolnshire, for the repeal of the advertisement duty. v s ,T r • COBDEN' petit' presented a number of petitions from hag s Places in Yorkshire, in favour of legalising mar of with a deceased wife's sister ; also a number maltion s f,„___ _ f„.. ttampshire, praying for the repeal of the tinic "a,-,LIGHT presented a petition from the London 42 41 ; 1 7 81 V, praying for the extension of the elective Ise to that institution. r oust BRO CKLEHURST presented a petition nume• aga' Y s igned by th e wor ki ng men o f Macclesfield, kee inst t ile Opening o f th e C rys t a l P a l ace on Sundays ; matters from the trad ers i n th e same t own , praying that rs in bankruptcy may be managed by county Ilerso w • 0. STAN LEY presented a petition froma befor named J o h n Ireland, a witness who was examined e th e B arnstaple committee, stating that he was h on p_ a red to su b stantiate his evidence at the bar of the , or before a commission. i'cre r. Len-AMBERS presented a petition from the the else of Maldon' praying that a writ might issue for tion of a new member for that borough. blr b„SUNDAY AND DAY SCHOOLS. clay sch oo l s moved for returns of the number of V" e neols and Sunday schools, and of the number of a, scholars and Suuday scholars, in England and a 'es, With the populations, distinguishing between pub am I P Private day schools, and also distinguishing male and exnale scholars, according to the census of 1851 ; sto et th d ay e numb er of schools and Sunday schools, th e number of d ay e scholars and Sunday scholars, With of the c iti es and municipal boroughs of England, publi res pective populations, distinguishing between kal e " a nd Private d ay sc h oo l s , an d a l so di s ti n guishing 185 i. an female scholars, according to the census of A greed to. kr 1.5 r, y court in Eng turt """"JIVIE moved e()llNT an Y ad C dr O e D-R ss t T o S t . h t e Crown for re lit: of the proceedings of every e 85and Wales, blished under e th en e n A f ct r 9 ar a l n iam d l e o n V ta i r c y . , , for 18 53, being in continuation o r, ji-,. 54 ,. Ag reed to. - kr. .vit.,FLESIASTICAL COMMISSION. and he •-• .03X moved for returns of all . dignities theEee. ka r ces the revenues of which are vested in the names nf tie4l Corolaissioners for Ireland, specifying yon t ook tille Act of Parliament uncle!. which the supres oltPyaoefe; in u d fia if any, with n o s *vlx.., rentcharge rent, and - r ' • I :e: e ilua ° , what diocese situated, the annual titi; number, as far in each, ethave the care of the Protestant population the names of the ministers who tei v e ,, ti a c i Paid to each as el i e t rgy ea m n abme o fal.l ascertained, in 0 n a e n y d sm t r h .es e : 1, )/ t - i ", hY the solicitors of the Ecclesiastical C?m e l r. litt a i t 4 for Ireland, for the preparation, &c., of the P tirket4/iSls of' conveyance, the renewal of leases, 129 0/ r elMrch con works be and the annual salaries of -ecoal;ts-LoNved to them and their clerks, and head e th h e arge d in Acetinf. under which the disbursement was charged to Parliament : 'NI -' of brd submitted ornim_ honeys due and uncollected by the Ecc e le f si re as rm tica a l . Ilei)t s inners for Ireland, February ' • h the he' h' e°lll e, on the let day of and benefice out . same : kitilel each bishopric yearly balance of the last, distin treasurer ()teas Payable, and the receivers' feestheof which 4,, agen c y or nt in the employment past, to etre other person for received by n years lreland, for with seve the name of the of the Ecclesiasti li °lllmissioners h ist day of Febuary last, Ant sums pai d to etL'es, the ent was charged each, and the head to . the house il l amount under w hichthe su d h i m sb i u tt rs ed em %Ale annual accounts for Ireland, arrange in Ole names of the several . tenants holding under the Ciesiastical Commissioners for 1 , , 15'o-ohs:a, distinguishing those rent that each pays ; and of the annual . who have perpetuities, 1 4 t h e il account th e case of those not having would and the sums that i perpetuity conveyances, b date of their last renewals, -at• Pa - ae - last gale day, wl N tllt be Ybl by each if all were required . C i °n to be made to the th summaries : to pay, the ca i ) , e l ;es of all rules, generalthe orders, and bye-laws . of the present ddiinguishing any that have . likq C ommissioners when they received the lilt , on of the board, an thi r d approved of Iby the Lord-Lieutenant, d as of r a e li o td dby the Acts 3 and 4 . Will. IV. , tli,P s . B of the Privy Council in Irelad di... 181°4 of Parishes, &c., under the and n u d n union and since January, I f B er lB t , h 11'4„13Propriations for bishoprics, 1833. fe l l Tempo lities Acts, since August, dignities, ',greed to -- ra whether the R; V ENTILATION OF THE HOUSE. Ar -r bE LACY EVANS wished to ask -el lent deli system of lighting the . last session, was k i ,_ n e by Mr. Gurney in committee, house, proposed . in evi hether it was in ihawr under his management, or whether IN rte of any one recommended by to alter or 0,.. the i ntention of the Board of Works Whether it th-`4,nge th e system of ventilation of the. house . to meet Irrneclditions pointed out by Mr. Gurney in his reports c i e to the house last session, and fully detailed in his li ce given in committee ? holl ir w . son and ~,_ MOLESWORTH said the lighting of the t here was under the management of Mr. M tli al ; Was no intention of making any alteration ea' or Sir in the ventilation. n the heat t iler rn ". W. BARRON said, on Mondaynight the *4-"nineter in the gallery stood above 73, and Isirn°Bt oppressive. lltqati . said, '?e .I.' nRIGIELT if there was no prospect of the sor qe on being improved, the house ought to move to torZolher building. w• NIOLESWORTH said, if these . andlacionnts. shit f l i lle d, he would call in Mr. Gurney again, 411 uPon the subject. Rh. / NEWSPAPERS IN BARRACKS. gentle v • S HELLEY wished to ask theright 11°11' order had b een : r oan the Secretary at War if any and, if bl ißsi ißsn ed hY the War -office with referen n c e e w to the ad ‘v, hetT i n of newspapers into soldiers' barracks, h,,ve any so, ob eetio els the right hon. gentleman would , k r ll to state the nature of that order. tu ed of th e had been is ''nllie 8. the said it had been stated in ers into thi restricti th d ission of newspap paper s that an order di, librarie snand e a . m t. 4?) b 4rraeits but rteadin the was n re ot so. The facts of oms attached to sol 4nruevwere these'. When he he became Secretary-at-War, were . alto short time ago he found that no newspapers to the t tarii, 4 to be circUla , ted in barracks or admitted In d the ,hata jroorns attached to the barracks, and to Rot 41°115e;i'esult was that the soldiers resorted N ut 1 mat was themselves acquainted with the passing n j t eae o4 B ;'. the day. For his part, however, he . saw m o s I, Ae ar °l‘ l eznl uding newspapers from the reading-roe I led,' "ear ) --and, therefore, an order '4 ' e rilli b e circulated in barracks, 'i on il laki ng tacoiloWspapers to had been 4 o{ kin g . exceptions, viz., one against . the admis m ti ',,ntroversial newspapers of a religious character, Ivil iell le.,°ther against the admission of newspapers kilit 'n'llilge in co ntroversial remarks upon matters of Nr7 discipline. (Hear, hear.) did not • V• SHELLEY wished to know if the order kr. exclude the United Service Gazette ki ted IItREERT re red • the affirmative. The ti , B e ,, ___ p i in . . .' 4lB of exeZcsionusazette came strictly within the second __STA.MP DUTIES. 44tbs l'`' ,LIDOK-HART wished to ask the Chancellor (111,- -1.1(1-l;lyeqouer if his attention had been drawn to the bri b e by th e ll t n e Tery degree of doctor in medicine eliAlictLversities of Scotland ? %ID, 11° t, blit h LOR of the EXCHEQUER said it Losthe .._, . 0 should be happy to receive any statemeu a bo"°Ject, as he was desirous that all these stamps placed on a. moderate and uniform rate. k r ii. SAVINGS BANKS. t , 1 1 ,, °4 of 44. 0, .E . l. - wished to ask whether it is the inten ce for etajesty's Government to introduce any mea Posi % 1 ! Pur.pose of giving additional security to v-theen :i.‘!!!!_ings banks ? th : a, intention of the EXCHEQUER said it ) 1 ,., tabl e a ' i .t,i,oli at . an early period to . lay upon .th'!na.getn_, out for improving the to and e In % ' I " of savings banks and to give depositors /24 44 114 ° f obta' • ' of th ee , ming greater security for the repay- Money than they now enjoy. (Hear.) LONDON AND EDINBURGH GAZETTE. Mr. COWAN wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether it is his intention to proceed further with the bill for the consolidation of the London and Edinburgh Gazettes, the second reading of which bill now stand I for Thursday, the sth day of May ; also, whether it is intended to adopt measures whereby the charge for advertising in the Gazettes may be reduced to the public. Mr. WILSON raid the matter of this bill was still under the consideration of the Government, with the view of devising some plan by which the cost of the paper and advertisements could be reduced. CUSTOMS, &c., ACTS. The house went pro forma into committee upon the Customs Acts, and some amendments in the resolutions respecting the importation of spirits for the Channel Islands were agreed to. ISSUE OF WRIT FOR BERWICK. The order of the day having been read for resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for issuing a writ for Berwick-upon-Tweed in the room of Mr. Matthew Forster and Mr. Stapleton, who had been unseated on the ground of bribery, Mr. HUME said there were no less than five ad journed debates respecting the issuing of writs for boroughs, and he thought it would be a great advan tage to the country and save the time of the house if they were all brought forward at one time. (Hear.) Mr. PHINN considered that it was most desirable to establish some principle or uniform rule for the issuing of writs for boroughs at which committees had reported bribery had existed, and the present occasion offered a good opportunity for doing so, as the case of Berwick gave a strong exemplification of the mode of bribei'v adopted at those elections which had come t efore election committees this session. By taking these writs separately, the proceedings of the house degenerated into party debates, instead of being merely of a political character. He contended that the house had not, by any recent acts of Parliament, abdi cated its common law jurisdiction, and it was, therefore, competent, as the grand inquest of the nation, to institute any further inquiry into elections it might deem necessary, notwithstanding no recommenda tions had been made by select committees. He thought the house ought to give its most earnest attention to a state of things in which the forms of this house were constantly made the means of extorting money for stifling petitions. He was bound to say that both sides of the house were implicated in corruption at elections. With regard to this case, it would be ludicrous to shut their eyes to the state of corruption existing at Berwick-upon-Tweed. He believed it was quite as notorious as St. Albans or Sudbury. In conduct= ing the inquiry a list was given of sixteen per sons alleged to brieee been bribed by one member, and of ten persons by the , other member ; but after the first day's inquiry charges of treating had been brought so home to one member, Mr. Stepleton, that on the next day he withdrew all opposition to the petition ; and though no further evidence was gone into with respect to the other member, and the counsel had declared that, as against him, it was a fighting petition, yet cases of bribery against him had been incidentally proved so clearly that he, as well as the other member, was declared unseated. The agents on both sides were examined as to a compromise having been effected, but they expressly denied it. Of course, if the house allowed private parties to prosecute their petitions at their own expense, they must allow them to prosecute them in their own way ; and it must be borne in mind that the object of unsuccessful candidates petitioning was not only to unseat their opponents, but also to keep themselves in favour with the borougL', and not expose it too far. This abrupt termination to the petition had caused great surprise both in that house and out of doors, and there was great suspicion that some corrupt practices had influenced the withdrawal. Articles had appeared in the Times and Daily News on the subject, hint ing pretty strongly that an offer had been made to a certain sitting member against whom a peti tion had been presented, to withdraw the petition for 2,0001., and from an address which shortly afterwards appeared in the Berwiele paper, there was no difficulty in fixing the Berwick-on-Tweed case as the one alluded to. He asked the house whether the perfect notoriety of those proceedings was not of itself suffi cient to justify the issuing of a commission without having the report of a ,committee to go by. (Hear, hear.) He believed that a commission might be safely issued to inquire into the state of every borough in the kingdom ; for though he allowed that county members were in the main elected without ally corrupt influence, yet there was a mass of corruption existing in the boroughs, which none but the most viglerous measures could deal with. Mr. K. SEYMER said he was curious to know on what groUnd the hon. and learned member intended to justify the suspension of the writ, seeing that he had not moved for the production of the evidence which was taken before the committee. He now found that he depended entirely upon articles in the Times, in the Daily News, and in a Berwick newspaper, and also on the notoriety of Berwick for corrupt practices. (Hear.) Now, he (Mr. Seymer) must confess that he was not aware of the existence of general corruption in the borough. He believed that since lie had had a seat in the house no ca'e of bribery had been proved against that borough. He objected to the house entering into the case of boroughs which were formerly corrupt, but with respect to which new writs had since been issued and new members elected.. There would be no end to such inquiries, and, besides, he did not think they would result in any good. The committee were unani mously of opinion that the writ should issue, and that there was no occasion for the production of the evi dence. (Hear.) In no way did that evidence affect the right of the borough \ to return members to Parliament. He could not help thinking that hon. members in asking for these inquiries were actuated by political motives, and that they wished to make out a strong case for an extensive reform bill. He did not quarrel with thorn for adopting that course ; but he at the same time thought it his duty to stand up for the constitutional rights of electors. Sir F. THESIGER said the hon. and learned mem ber (Mr. Phinn) had made a very serious imputation upon Mr. Hodgson, a gentleman who had for many years been a member of the house, and he (Sir F. Thesiger) thought it was but fairness and justice to him to state what were the real circumstances connected with the petition which he had presented against the return for Berwick. In the article in the Times Mr. Hodgson was described as an adventurer. From 1837 to 1847 Mr. Hodgson represented the town of Berwick on-Tweed ; and being then anxious to represent New castle-on-Tyne, he stood for it and was defeated. At the election which took place last year, he wished to be again returned for Berwick, and believed that parties were so evenly balanced, that the Conservatives were en titled to one seat. He stated, therefore, that if the liberals were determined to bring in two members, he was ready to be put in nomination ; and when Mr. Stapleton was brought forward along with Mr. Forster, Mr. Hodgson commenced his canvass. The result of the election was known. That treating and bribery pre vailed to a considerable extent the house was entitled to conclude from the result of the inquiry before the committee— (hear, hear) but Mr. Hodgson, on the declaration of the poll, clearly intimated his intention to petition a gainst the return. He laid the evidence bef ore a baronet of liberal principles, in a northern county, who told him that in his opinion, the case was complete, and, with Mr. Hodgson's concurrence, informed the agents of the sitting members that a petition would undoubtedly be presented, with a certainty of success. Mr. Hodgson's desire was to ob tain one of the seats for a Conservative candidate, and he wished to accomplish this without presenting a peti tion, partly because a petition was a very expensive af fair, and partly beca use—and the experience of hon. members would bear out this view—it was not a very popular thing in a borough for a person to be petitioner. (Hear.) He came to town prepared to prosecute the petition, having, as be informed him, no less than 90 witnesses. Under these circumstances he saw a gentle man of great authority on the other side of the house, by whose advice he sought an interview with Mr. Forster. He first proposed to Mr. Forster that both the sitting members should vacate their seats. (Laughter.) His next proposal was that one of them should retire, and that no opposition should be offered to a Conservative candidate. It happened that there was some disunion between the sitting members which rendered any arrangement of that sort utterly impracticable. Mr. Forster, however, referred Mr. Hodgson to his son, whom, he said, he would find a man of honour. Mr. Hodgson stated that on his calling upon Mr. Forster, jun., that gentleman said to him, " There are four walls to this room — (laughter)—l propose that neither you nor I shall repeat anything that passes between us. Your father distinctly states that he wishes not to know what takes place at our interview, and, therefore if you please, it shall be strictly confidential ;" to which Mr. Forster agreed. Yet in the article in the Times, copied in the Berwick newspaper, was found a statement which could not have been. received from any other person than Mr. Forster, jun. (Hear.) It was there stated that Mr. Hodgson offered to make with the young man a bet which must terminate in his own favour, so that if the transaction should ever be called in question it might be "a colour able answer." Now, as confidence had been so far be trayed, and such a character had been given to the communications which took place, he thought Mr. Hodgson was justified in himself stating what really took place, and wh at fo undation there was for the asser tion that a wager was offered to be laid with Mr. Forster, jun., as the con dition of his father ' s withdrawing. Mr. Hodgson said , " Su pp ose I p roceed with my petition only against Mr. Stapleton, with your father's guarantee that there shall be no opposition to my election for Ber wick upon the first vacancy (as was understood). Upon this, Mr. Forster , j un., said, " What secu r ity Could you have if any such guarantee were given ?' " Why," said Mr. Hodgson, "You may enter into a p ena lt y i n case I am not returned. ' (Hear, hear, and cheers.) He had made it a condition of his stating the case that no thing should be omitted. (Hear, hear.) All he ventured to say on this matter was, that it was very different from offering to lay a bet as a colour for a bribe of 2,000/. ; all that was sought by Mr. Hodgson being merely a guarantee to secure his election. Mr. Forster, jun., o b serv ed that a bond of that kind would be ille g al ; upon which Mr. Hodgson said, " Well, then, I'll lay you a bet, or do the thing in any other way you like." (Laughter.) He made no comment, but merely stated the circumstances. No arrangement was made with Mr. Forster, and the petition was still pending. (Hear.) When the committee met, on the very first day of the inquiry, as they bad heard from the chairman, a case of treating was completely established against Mr. Staple ton. Evidence was given against Mr. Forster which certainly placed his seat in considerable jeopardy. In this state of things a communication was made on the part of Mr. Forster, declaring that if no further evidence were offered against him, he would, undertake that no opposition should be offered to the election of a conser vative candidate for Berwick. Mr. Hodgson, having been put to considerable expense, replied that he would not accept of the seat without the costs. Accord ingly the offer was rejected. In the course of the same day an honourable friend of his (Sir P. Thesiger) ex pressed to Mr. Hodgson his regret that some arrange ment had not been come to ; but Mr. Hodgson stated distinctly that the seat and the costs were his terms, and to no other terms would he submit. When it was stated that Mr. Stapleton would abandon the defence of his seat, Mr. Hodgson desired that notice should be given to him that an application would be made to the committee for costs against him, as had been previously intimated in his letter. When the committee met on the second day, Mr. Hodgson communicated with his counsel as to the grounds on which they were to press, for costs, when, to his surprise, he was informed that an arrangement had been made that Mr. Forster should pay the costs of the petition, that neither he nor his friends should oppose the return of a Conservative candidate for Berwick, that no further evidence should be produced before the committee—(hear)—and what ever might be the decision with regard to Mr. Forster, this arrangement was to hold good. It was proved to the satisfaction of the committee that there had been no compromise between the parties. Looking at all these circumstances, he thought the house would feel great hesitation in deciding that the writ ought not to issue. There were no grounds, as it appeared to him, on which the writ could be suspended with a view to a further in quiry. The act of Parliament said that if the house directed an inquiry, this was to have no effect upon the issuing of the writ, and although it might be desirable to appoint a select committee to inquire into the grounds of a charge against a gentleman who bad been a member of that house—(hear, hear)—to suspend the writ would in his judgment be unjust towards the constituency of Berwick. Mr. WHITESIDE wished to state, as a member of the committee, that all the attorneys who were examined swore that there was no compromise. The house then divided— For the original motion 2lB For the amendment 6O Majority for the m0ti0n.......... 158 THE ROTHERHITHE SEIZURE. On the motion for going into committee of ways and means, Mr. DUNCOMBE rose and said—ln pursuance of the notice which appears in the journals of the house, I have now to ask the noble loid the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in consequence of two infor. mations of a political character having been laid against Wm. Hale, inventor and manufacturer of the patent war rocket, and the first of such informations having terminated in the said patentee (Wm. Hale) being adjudged to pay certain penalties to the Crown, it is the intention of her Majesty's Government to advise the Crown to proceed with the second information, laid under the provisions of a law passed during the reign of William 111., 1697, intituled " An act to prevent the throwing or firing of squibs, ser pents, and other fireworks." Now, sir, in asking this ques tion, I will state as shortly as possible not only my reasons for asking it, but exactly how the case stands at the pre sent moment as regards the defendant Hale ; and I think I shall be able to prove to the house that so absurd and ridi culous a prosecution as the present was never instituted by any British Government on political grounds. (Hear.) That this prosecution was instituted for political reasons and on political grounds, I think the noble lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department has already admitted in his place in this house; but if there be any doubt about it, you have only to look at the leading articles which have appeared in the organ of the Government, and certain ex tracts from which I will take the liberty of reading to the house. (Hear.) The first seizure of Mr. William Hale's property was made on the 14th of last month, and on the following day, the 15th, an article on the subject appeared in the Times. It commenced as follows :—" The British Government has not waited long for an opportunity of proving to all the world the sincerity of its resolution to put the law rigorously in force against such foreign refu gees residing in this country as have abused the tolerant hospitality of England by carrying on conspiracies against other states. We believe that we are correctly informed when we state that, upon intelligence received by the Se cretary of State for the Home Department and the Commis sioners of Police for the Metropolis, active measures have been taken to substantiate the charges which have long been vaguely preferred against M. Kossuth and his adhe rents. Upon this legal information a house in the occupa tion of M. Kossuth was searched yesterday morning at an early hour by the competent authorities, acting, we pre sume, under the Secretary of State's warrant, and the result of this investiption was the discovery of a large store of arms, ammunition, and materials of war, which may be the stock in trade of a political incendiary, but certainly form no part of the household goods of a private gentleman living in pacific retirement. Indeed, there is reason to believe that these preparations have been going on upon a scale entirely inconsistent with the notion of any mere private speculation, and must have had in view hostilities or insurrectionary movements of a very destruc tive character. We know not how long the attention of the Home-office has been directed to the suspicious proceed ings of the persons engaged in these lawless undertakings, but Lord Palmerston has shown his usual energy and skill in tracing the evil to its root ; and it is extremely satisfac tory that the Minister who has been so often identified with these adventurers by the ignorance or passion of foreign Governments should now have it in his power to show, by conspicuous example, that the good order of society and the friendly relations of this country with foreign States are not to be violoted with impunityunder his administration." Now, sir, I believe M. Kossuth has complained of having been libelled by this article, but in my opinion the noble lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department has more reason to complain, for I think he has been libelled by the Times. (Hear, hear.) It is only two years ago since this house, after a long and interesting debate, passed a a resolution in approbation of the noble lord's foreign policy. I voted in favour of that resolution, because I thought the noble lord had taken an independent part in relation to foreign countries, and I am much surprised, therefore, to find the Times eulogising him for conduct quite the reverse. Still I retain my favourable opinion of the noble lord, and, whatever the Times may say, I think the noble lord is not "the Minister of Austria." (Hear.) In another article the Times says that the proceedings against the Halo. aro not for paltry penalties, but are for other State purposes. The exact words of the journalist are :—" It would be absurd to suppose that the active and energetic measures taken in this case, under the immediate direction of the Government, and by the Solicitor to the Treasury, are solely intended to recover this paltry penalty. We are confident that there is considerably more to be disclosed than is yet before the public. if we are not strangely misinformed, there are still important wit nesses who have not been examined on [this charge against Mr. Hale, for ho only figures in the capacity of agent and manufacturer of rockets for other parties." Well, that is the opinion of the Times, but it has been confirmed by the speeches that have.been made at Bow-street on the part of the Government. Now, sir, as I have said, Mr. Hale has had two informations laid against him. The first informa tion was brought under what is called the Gunpowder Act of George 111. Under that act he was adjudged to pay 2s. a lb. for 571bs. of a composition which was found on his premises at Rotherhithe, but which he maintains was not gunpowder, and which I believe no man ever thought was gunpower until it came to Bow-street. He had 2571b5. of this substance in his possession, but he was acknowledged to be a trader in gunpowder, and as traders are entitled to have 2001bs. on their premises, he was sentenced to pay 2s. a pound only on the remaining 571bs. But the truth is, Mr. Hale had carried on his works, had made his shells and rockets, close to Woolwich Arsenal, without let or hind rance, for a long period, and only a comparatively short time has elapsed since he removed to Rotherhitlao, and so came within the provisions of the Gunpowder Act ; for I understand the act prohibits any person from keeping more than 2001bs. of gunpowder within three miles of the city of London, in case, I presume, my hon. colleague the Lord Mayor and the corporation of the city should be blown up. (A laugh.) Under these circumstances Mr. Hale was con demned, though I won't say it did not appear very clear whether the composition found on his premises was gun powder or not. Witnesses were produced on both sides. The witness brought forward by Mr. Hale, an experienced chemist, said it was nonsense to suppose the composition was gunpowder ; but the witness produced on the part of the Government, said it was gunpowder ; while the firm with whom Mr. Hale was in the habit of dealing declared it was not supposed to be gunpowder by the trade. Poor Mr. Henry, the magistrate, was completely bewildered ; but he went home, took down his " Encyclopaedia Britan nica," and looked to see what gunpowder really was. (A laugh.) Three days afterwards he re-appears on the bench at Bow-street, does not say a single word about the evi dence which had been given by competent witnesses, but says—" I have found in the Encyclopaedia Britannica' that this after all is gunpowder, because our ancestors for merly used gunpowder in an ungranulated state, and the granulation of gunpowder is only an invention of modern times." And so he granulated Mr. Hale—(a laugh)—adjudging him to pay a penalty of Si. 14s. Such was the end of State prosecution number one. (Laughter.) Let us now proceed to number two. Upon the last occasion referred to, Mr. Bodkin, the coun sel for the Crown, informed the magistrate that there was another information to which his attention would by-and by be directed, and as to which, circumstances would be detailed which he would not now anticipate, but which would impart another character to these transactions. Everybody knew that the meaning of this was, that it was intended to identify M. Kossuth with the proceedings and transactions of Mr. Hale, that a great explosion was to take place on the part of ? the Government, and that cir custances were to be disclosed, showing that there had been a dreadful conspiracy between M. Kossuth and Mr. Hale, and that it was their intention to blow up every Government in Europe which they might happen not to like. (A laugh.) The act under which information No. 2 was laid, was an act passed in the 9th year of William 111., 1697, and one which, I will venture to say, has been a complete dead letter since within a very few years after its passing ; and what I complain of, and what the people of England complain of, is, that a State prosecution should be carried on under such an Act of Parliament as this. It is intituled "An act to prevent the throwing or firing of squibs, serpents, and other fire works," and its object, as stated in the preamble, was to avert the danger to the lives, limbs, and eyes of the lieges, which had been found to result from the practice which then prevailed of letting off fireworks in the open air. The act provides that the manufacture or sale of any rockets, squibs, serpents, or other fireworks, or of cases or moulds for the same, on and after the 25th of March, 1698, by any person of what age, sex, degree, or quality soever, shall be punished by the inflicti on o f a penalty of 5/. for each offence; but thi act Militia, uN re a wr t sir, r 4 T in there is a sav i ng c l ause a t th e end allowing the Board of Ordnan ce t o ma k e roc k e t s , an d th e A r till er y C o mp a ny, the s there i n mB making k n a Bands, to et rockets 0 en m ok manufacture f ab a nt c dt at u s r h e a el 11l andst,h has sae beenu( fire works.erguil ; Mr. ty of violationa Hale himself of the admits it. B w everybody if he has bodywillad h m ee i n t that guilty of a violation of the law, so has every person who squibs, serpents, has made a rocket, so have those manufacture rockets, and crackers for Vauxhall and Cremorne ask who has ever thought cif — (a laugh)—and so cution under this act ? the magistrate, appears to lia h v e e ar b . matches in this country.has every manufacturer of lucifer (Hear, hear, and laughter.) I (Rear instituting a political prose and glad to get )e r e i n d W o 2 i lyh it 'a . m3el H rd. e Ffo fe heard nrtheY whole transaction, the evidence of certain witnesses, among among whom were three or four Hungarians —no n&—political exiles, who had been objects ol not' charity in W, (Hear, eyes of M. Kossuth, and who had received assistan ce at his hands. One of them, it appears from his own statement, had enjoyed English hospitality for a period of four months havingr months on the treadmill in Maidstone Gaol. and a laugh.) The others were Germans, and the wholeformerly connected with the artillery, and been being sup- THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1853, posed to know something about the manufacture •of rockets and shells, were out of charity recommended by M. Kossuth to Mr. Hale, who consented to give them work at eighteen shillings a week. A great deal has been made of the statement of these men, that they were desired not to talk in public houses of what was going on in the factory at Rotherhithe. Now really, sir, I see nothing in this which is not capable of satisfactory explanation. The men might be told not to talk in . public-houses, because the work carried on might be misrepresented, as it un questionably has been, for I maintain that the Govern ment has been grossly deceived and misinformed. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, having heard the evidence of these poli tical refugees, Mr. Henry resolved not to decide the case summarily ; in fact he was again bewildered, and being unable to extricate himself from the difficulty . by consult ing the " Encyclopmdia Britannica," he wisely deter mined to send the case over to the Surrey magistrates, who, sitting close to Vauxhall, he thought would be good judges of the matter. (A laugh.) So stands the case at the present moment. Now then, sir, I would ask, is this a worthy or a dignified course for any Government of this country to pursue? (Hear, hear.) If M. Kossuth and Mr. Hale have been guilty of any conspiracy to levy war against any of those countries with which we are now upon terms of amity, I say indict them boldly and openly for that conspiracy ; but if they have not been guilty of such an offence, do not rake up an old act of Parliament that has slept for the last 120 years even with regard to the making of fireworks. (Hear, hear.) But what are all these proceedings for ? Nothing, lam sure, can be more unpalatable to the great body ofthe people of this country, who look upon the whole transaction as far as it has gone with unmitigated disgust. (Cheers.) I believe it is bring ing the Government, to whom we all wish well, and to whom we aro disposed to give a fair trial, into such disre pute with the mass of the people as few Governments have experienced. I ask, sir, who is this transaction to please ? The popular impression is that it is to please some foreign Government—to please the Austrian Government and, indeed, I think we have sufficient evidence of the fact in some of the foreign journals. (Hear.) This is a point to which I beg to call the attention of the noble lord the Sec retary of State for the Home Department. Very recently a paragraph appeared in a Frankfort paper, headed, "The English Police the Spies of Foreign Despots." It ran as follows :—" It is now confirmed that the Prussian police were most efficiently assisted in the late political arrests at Berlin and elsewhere by repeated communications from the police at London, without which many of their disclosures might not have been made ; and we see a proof of the good faith of the British Government when, through Lord Westmoreland, it assures the Cabinet of Vienna that it will watch over the conduct of the refugees ' • and we learn from other sources that the London p o li ce have for some time kept a list of all the fugitives residing there; and watch over their communications with the conti nent." What, sir, must Europe think of England unless she gives forth some contradiction of s uc h injurious statements? (Hear, hear.) It is quite right that the police of London, or any other police, should communicate with foreign Governments, in the event of persons seeking refuge here being guilty of felony, or murder, or something of that sort ; but the Government has no right, or the police have no right, to communicate with foreign Govern ments upon political subjects —upon any political crime that is committed here, or may have been committed abroad; and, indeed, our police have no right to commu nicate with the police of foreign Governments at all. They were not instituted for that purpose. (Hear, hear.) But now I am to show that Austria had really something to do with these seizures at Rotherhithe. In the Augsburg Gazette of the 14th April—remember Mr. Hale's property was seized on the 13th—there appeared an article, dated Munich, April 12, and expressed in the following terms : - - " At London revolution is allowed to take counsel and fill her arsenals with destructive weapons, rockets, Erc." Now, I think it is natural to infer from this that some commu nication had passed between certain parties in authority here and the informants of the Augsburg Gazette. (Hear, hear.) So, sir, the Times was not, after all, far wrong when it said that the Government of this country had been urged by Austria to look after the refugees, and that it was determined to show its willingness to do so. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, I think her Majesty's Ministers, when they are applied to by Austria or any other foreign power on the subject of political fugitives, ought to tell the Go vernment appealing to them to look at the free institutions of this country—ought to remind them of the confiscations of Lombardy, and the cruelties and tortures that recently disgraced Milan and Mantua—ought to let them know that such is not the way to gain the affections of their subjects —and ought to return for answer to their request, that in terference with refugees in this country will never be sub mitted to by the people of England. (Cheers.) No, sir, we want none of their Radetskys here. (Hear, hear.) I, therefore, beg to ask whether her Majesty's Ministers think it worth while to pursue this prosecution any further against Mr. Hale ? Mr. Hale admits that in making rockets and shells he has violated an old act of Parliament. He has already paid a penalty of 5/. 145., of which only one-half goes to the Crown, the other being paid over to the informer ; and I want to know if it is the intention of ' the Government to carry the prosecution further, either against Mr. Hale or against any other person whatever ? (Hear, hear.) Lord PALMERSTON—Sir, my hon. friend has treated this matter with his usual admixture of jocularity and argu ment, and certainly if there were an old act of Parliament for prohibiting moral squibs and crackers, I think my hon. friend would come within its provisions. (A laugh.) Now, sir, my hon. friend charges mo with being an organ and instru ment of foreign powers for the purpose otexercising here a foreign police over persona in this country, and in support of that accusation he quotes passages that he has found in foreign newspapers, as well as passages from an English journal. Now I beg, in the first place, to disclaim any re sponsibility as to anything said of me in any newspaper, whether British or foreign ; and if my hon. friend had had his attention directed as much as mine has happened to be, and from time to time, to passages in foreign newspapers in which my name was mentioned, I think he would have found that the weight of accusation and of calumny was 'very much of a different kind from that which he has quoted. (Hear, hear.) I was told the other day that in the searches recently made in Italy there was a set of dag gers found of English manufacture, and that the authori ties were indignant and incensed at the detestable and diabolical conduct of the man who had been Minister for Foreign Affairs in England, for on these very daggers his name was inscribed. (A laugh.) They said "There it is plain enough—Palmer and Son. Oh, the execrable revo lutionist ! to send destructive weapons inscribed with his own name into Italy." (Great laughter). My hon. friend has indulged in a great deal of humour in regard to the prosecutions which I have thought it my duty to institute. Now, I did not in the least disguise—l have never dis guised the ground upon which I thought it my duty to in stitute these prosecutions. It was not that Mr. Hale had a few pounds of gunpowder in his possession, or carried on the trade of making shells and rockets for ordinary pur poses ; but when I was informed that there was a great collection of warlike stores accumulated in an out of the way place, under circumstances of secrecy, and when I coupled that with other circumstances which tended to show that there was a purpose, the object of which was be yond the limits of this country, and not connected with the legitimate interests of commerce, I felt it my duty to inquire whether these proceedings were or were not con trary to law. (Hear, hear.) I was told they were con trary to law, and therefore I think I should have neglected my duty in the office which I have the honour to hold if I had not taken such steps as the law appeared to authorise for the purpose of _putting a stop to those proceedings. (Hear, hear.) I herd that in doing that I have consulted the honour and dignity of the country. (Hear, hear.) My colleagues and myself, and not only the members of the pre sent Government, but also the members of the late, and in deed of all governments, have repeatedly declared in Parlia ment, that while, on the one hand, foreigners who take re fuge in this country are entitled to every possible protection which the laws and freedom of this realm can afford, it was the duty of the Government, on the other hand, to pre vent any foreigner, as well as any British subject from, pursuing or being concerned in any proceeding or under taking for the purpose of threatening the tranquility of foreign States. (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, my hon. friend has made merry about the question whether the gunpowder found at Rotherhithe was really gunpowder or not. That question having been decided by a legal and competent authority, I think I may say that I never heard of such a quibble as that by which it was attempted to be shown that the substance in question was not gunpowder. I think that the magistrate was perfectly right in his decision. With regard to the rockets, my honourable friend asks me whether it is the intention of her Majesty's Govern ment to continuo the proceedings which have been com menced. Now I have no hesitation in saying that we have no desire to press hardly in any way whatever on Mr. Hale ; and I have no hesitation, either, in saying, as to the last interrogatory of my ho n . friend, that the evidence we have received does not bear out or justify any pro ceedings against any other person, whether British or foreign, except Mr. Hale. (Hear, hear.) But, with regard to Mr. Hale, let the house remember how the matter stands. The act und er w hi c h M r. Ha l e was proceeded against prohibits any perso n f rom ma ki ng , or using, or selling any rockets, un l ess th ey h ave t h e co nsent of the Ordnance, with the exception always of the Artillery Com pany and the Militia, who ar e p erm itt e d to make and use rockets for the purposes of war. Under that act there are two methods of proceeding, the one by summary convic tion before a magistrate, and the other by trial by indict ment before a court and jury. We adopted the first of these courses as the simplest and the shortest, and the least troublesome to any party. The case was opened ; the evidence against Mr. Hale was satisfactory ; but the magistrate then stopp e d th e procee dings, and said that he thought they ought t o b e re f erre d to another court, in sir,o rderl h th o a l t d th t e ha, matter tlpo nmgigehaterableptrirnieedipi.heya, it is a very bad a jury. Now, precedent to com mence procee di ngs a gainst any individual, s l top i l t e h t e o m g great haneadrt.)henlttoia f o r you may begin pro ceedings without an y jus tifi a bl e c ause, for the purpose of afotraebuthaeey; co me to trial. (H ear , causing annoyance and trouble to an individual, and then, if, in order to avoid discomfiture, you stop the proceed ings, you give the party no opportunity of stating his case. (Hear, hear.) lam speaking now upon general principles. The party against whom you acted in that manner would have the right to proceed against the Government for a malicious prosecution and would h a ve a case for remedy for the evil sustained by I think the him. But if th at be so, generally speaking, and. upon abstract princiPles , case would be much stro nger a gainst the inGovernment the present instance ; because here, what will be said ? Why, that the Government began proceedings Detore a magis tratesto d with summary jurisdiction, which were _ stopped when the case had been stated against the defendant, and when he had had no opportunity of saying anythi nge in his defence— -no opportunity of shaking the ounde vi s L t e a l t l ,e7l of witnesses, or of proving that were not sufficient to bear out the prosecution. Th e case is sent to a jury; but what do the Government then ? Why they retire from the proceeding, and say that their drop the pro ceedings,case will not bear sifting before a jury ;theyh t dwhich individual of t a re ress and deprive the (Hear, hear.) I his character would otherwise obtain. a recedent, am therefore advised that it would n o t be • reg ard to ge nt as neral cases that as a general precedent, or in Hale should be stopped, but the proceedings against Mr. that the judgment of a competent tribunal should be ob tained on the matter. At the same time I have no hesita t of her Majesty's Government, tion in saying, on the par hardly on Mr. Hale ; we shall that I have no wish tot be press hve a ecision on the law, ad be perfectly satisfieod .a,Kea p l ace , d Mr. Hale, I trust, will that decision having t not suffer in any way by having his case pushed to this limit. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to correct a mistake i n t o had fallen. The noble lord seemed t which the uoble lord I h ed him with being r Duncombe) hat c arg think that he (M . in this atter. He had done no such a tool owe us d mtriaerely quoted the words of the Times. So a wor thing. noble lord a tool of Austria , he ha d far from thinking the indebted to him for b e li e ved that M. Kossuth was always his life and his prop ert y. The hon. member was proceed- ing to make a remark respecting Mr. Hale, when loud cries of " order " compelled him to re sume his seat. Lord D. STUART had heard what had fallen from the noble lord the Secretary for the Home Department with very great pleasure. He had understood him to say that there was no evidence implicating any person whatever, except Mr. Hale, who was under prosecution, and there fore it followed that all the statements which had been made to implicate Kossuth in these proceedings ' as if he had been abusing the hospitality of this cou n t ry by enter ing into unlawful designs and preparing to levy war on a country with which we were at amity, were but baseless fabrics and unfounded calumnies. (Hear, hear, and cheers.) The accusation had gone out to the world that large stores of ammunition had been discovered in a house in the occupation of Kossuth, and the whole world was called upon to execrate a man who, after having received the hospitality of this country and being delivered from th e dangers to which he had been exposed, could so disgrace himself. Now it turned out that all that wasan imagination, a vile imagination of persons animated by some rancour against Kossuth, who had always shown themselves to be in the interest of Austria and Russia, and who had persecnted that man by all the means in their power because of his opposition to those governments in bravely and nobly defending the constitution of his coun try. (Hear, and cheers.) Instead of waiting to hear what the verdict in the case would be, those persons hastened, in their malignant spite, to condemn Kossuth unheard, and in order to hold him up to detestation they assumed at once that he was guilty, and referring to what might be called the centre of the city of London, the rooms where the municipal body of the city of London assembled, they dared to point out that Guildhall was not far from the Old Bailey. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) could not help saying that, after the statement they had heard completely excul pating Kossuth from these vile accusations, some circum stances or events might possibly occur which, in the end, might demonstrate that if Guildhall were not far from the Old Bailey, there was another place, called Printing-house square, which was still nearer to it. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the declaration of the noble lord did him hon our. He was glad to find that her Majesty's Government were not concerned in those proceedings which had been attributed. to them. It had been said, and he believed truly, that the noble lord the Secretary for the Home Department had been the main cause, if not of saving the life of the illustrious man to whom he (Lord Dudley Stuart) had referred, at any rate of his being delivered from captivity, and now enjoying liberty. (Hear.) He knew that there was another Government, that of the United States, which laid claim to this merit, and he ren dered full justice to the noble feeling which the American Government and nation had displayed on that occasion, but at the same time he believed that they might have used what means they pleased, and have carried on what negotiations they could, but that if it had not been for the noble lord then at the head of the Foreign-office, those un fortunate patriots, would still be detained in prison at Kutayah. (Hear, hear.) It would, then, be a melancholy spectacle, if afterwards in this country the noble lord were to treat those refugees in a manner worse than the Turkish Government had ever treated them. The Turkish Govern ment had detained them in captivity to please Austria and Russia, but it had not done so of its own free will, ;and its proceedings had been perfectly open. when its prisoners went out to take exercise they were followed by soldiers ; they were tricked by no men in disguise, nor by the police of the Government. He (Lord Dudley Stuart) said that it was a nobler course to take to tell these men that they were prisoners, and to treat them as such, than to tell them that they enjoyed all the rights and privileges of the sub jects of this country, while at the same time they were basely watched by persons in disguise. (Hear, hear.) He thanked the noble lord for his declaration, and if he re gretted anything it was that the noble lord had not taken an earlier opportunity of making that declaration. Mr. BRIGHT—It appears, I think, from what has taken place, that the noble lord at the head of the Home Depart ment has been engaged in that undignified employment of hunting for a mare's nest. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) I agree with my hon. friend the member for Finsbury as to the paltriness and shabbiness of these proceedings, even as regards Mr. Hale, but I do not think that the case with regard to Kossuth is of the same character, nor that it ought to be regarded by the house in the same light. (Hear, hear.) One is a simple affair of a mischievous police inter ference, which turns out to be nothing at all, and is of a very different character from that which has induced me to advert to this subject. The noble lord says that he has no evidence whatever on which to found any charge in connection with these transactions, except against Mr. Halo. How far he has any grounds against Mr. Hale we have heard, for it appears that the noble lord would be glad to get out of the mess he is in, if he did not think that it would be undignified for the Government to give up the prosecution. But the noble lord knows the impression which has been created on this question ; first, by the statements in the newspapers, and afterwards by the noble lord's own statement in this house. Ido not charge the noble kid with having made any direct accusation against Kossuth ; but the house will recollect that in all his for mer observations the noble lord studiously avoided saying anything that could be quoted as clearing the character of Kossuth, and he left the statements of the Times news paper to have their full effect upon the world, although at the time he was in possession of precisely the same know ledge of the case that he was now, and had the power of clearing the character of Kossuth. (Hear, hear.) The Times has been referred to, as it must be with regard to this matter, and I shall make an observation on that jour nal. The Times newspaper, I presume, we all know is a great power in a mask—(hear hear, hear) ;—we do not see the hand that writes those articles ; but there is no man in London calling himself a gentleman who thirst have put his signature to the article relating to Kossuth. (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) There is a gentleman, a member of this house, who is not now present, but if he were present I would tell him what I say now, that he durst not—l speak of one who is notoriously connected with that paper —I say he durst not have put his name to that article in which those charges were brought against Kossuth. (Hear, hear, and murmurs.) I can tell the Times that it was pre cisely by conduct like this, by which scandalous and lying charges were brought against honourable men, that the press of France lost all character with the people of France, and that during the existence of the Republic the middle class and all the people of Paris looked on with disregard and almost with pleasure while the papers, one after ano ther, were brought under the penalties of the law, and, finally, they looked on without any opposition, and appa rently without any discontent, when first of all newspaper writers were forced to put their names to every article, and afterwards three-fourths of all the papers were suppressed. (Hear.) I am not particularly thin-skinned—l do not com plain as caring one straw about it; but by way of illustration only, I may mention that the Times of this morning says it is glad that I had the decency—l speak from memory—not to appear before Lord Clarendon yesterday with a deputation which waited on the noble Lord to request that he would con sent to the introduction of a certain clause into the treaty with the United States, when it is known that the United States Legislature was willing to have such a clause intro duced. The Times.says it is well I had the decency not to go with that deputation, because I had lately been defending the manufacture of rockets and other warlike stores which have been so much talked about. Now if Mr. Anybody— Ido not know his name—who directs that newspaper, or , who wrote that article, were to come before the public, do you think there is any man who walks about the West-end of London, and calls himself a gentleman, who would have written that article, and would have attached his name to it ? (Hear, hear.) Well, I say it is a cowardly thing, that a statement like this should be made • and it is doubly in famous, when these statements are to be made to under mine and to destroy the character of a man suffering under misfortune, an exile from his country, who is trusted by millions of his countrymen, and who, though living in adversity, is yet buoyed up by the hope that some day or other he may be able to do something for the liberty of his country. (Hoar, and cheers.) I say it is doubly infamous for a powerful organ of the press to attack a man of that character without any ground of fact on which to found its statement, and thus attempt to destroy his character and reputation, and influence. (Hear, hoar.) The noble lord has admitted two things. He has admitted that there is no charge against Kossuth or against any other person, ex cept Mr. Hale, and ho stated the oth er n i g ht th a t so long as he had been connected with the Home-office, now about four months, the practice of opening lette rs h a d no t b een re sorted to, and I think he entirely and satisfactorily settled that question. (Hear, hear.) But there is another point which has been adverted to, and that is the system of espionage. Now the noble lord, on the 7th of February, 1850, in speaking of the d e t en ti on o f th e H ungarians in Turkey, said that the Turkish Government had undertaken to confine them for a limited time under surveillance, a word to which there was no corresponding term in the English language. Now I wish to ask him this, whether it be true, as it has been stated, apparently on good au thority, that some policemen, or some persons acting as such, are charged to watch and report upon whatever they may observe about Kossuth's house ? (Hear, hear.) I want to ask the noble lord whether, if that be so, those proceed ings have been taken by the authority of the Home-office, and whether the expenses connected with them are de frayed by the Government or out of any metropolitan rates, or whether they are defrayed by the Austrian Government or embassy. (Hear, hear.) I wish that he would clear that matter up. I believe these proceedings to be without the slightest justification. I think what has been stated lately in the papers has caused an unpleasant feeling with regard to the Government and our whole system, that it is not so above board as we pretend it is ; and that although we talk a great deal, and mouth about our system and our hospitality, that we have shown to exiles we are doing pre cisely what is done in many parts of the continent of Europe at this moment. If the noble lord will give some contradiction to that statement, as he has done to others, there will be no member who will be more happy than myself to hear it. (Hear, hoar.) Mr. OTWAY said that the noble lord the member for Tiverton had twitted the honourable member for Man chester the other night for his gross ignorance of the con stitution of this country, and had said that if there were grounds for suspecting any foreigner or Englishman of being engaged in proceedings hostile to any foreign Govern ment he would have been justified in taking those pro ceedings with regard to M. Kossuth, which had been attributed to him. [Lord Palmerston : I did not say that.] The noble lord had not always entertained such sentiments; for it was not long ago that he had received at his official residence in Downing-street a deputation from Islington which presented'an address couched in language somewhat strong as regarded a Sovereign with whom we were on tonna of amity, and that deputation had resulted in the 'retirement of the noble lord from the Cabinet of which he was at that time a member. For the noble lord now to turn round suddenly, and to speak of Kossuth and the other refugees in the tone which he had used, was a cir cumstance which must cause regret to the admirers of the noble lord. Lord PALMERSTON : The honourable member has entirely misstated me. My observations the other evening applied to what I conceived to bo the endeavour of the honourable member for Manchester to extort from me an opinion as to the possible result of the proceedings at law then in progress. (Hear, hear.) I considered him to ask what would be the effect on Kossuth of the proceedings then going on ; and I stated that it would be very uncon stitutional to give an opinion on that subject. (Hear, hear.) With regard to the police, I beg to say that what ever burden has to be borne on that account, is borne by this country. (Hoar, hear.) The honourable member for Manchester refers to a statement which I made on a former occasion, to the effect that what is called surveillance is a state of things unknown in this country. Now a state of surveillance is this, that an individual is not allowed to go beyond certain limits, and ho is watched by competent authorities to prevent him from doing so. Undoubtedly it is one of the duties of the police to ascer%ain whether the laws of the country are infringed, and if they have reason to think that any given individual is engaged in proceedings contrary to the law, it is the duty of the police to take measures for the purpose of informing the Government, and if they had reason to think that Kossuth or any other person was engaged in proceedings contrary to law, they were bound to ascertain whether there was or was not any ground for that suspicion. (Hoar, hear.) Mr. BRIGHT : I want to repeat my question. The noble lord has merely ; told us what everybody knows. N0w,..1-Jelifit to ask the:noble lord this question: has he, in hisiffice, or by directions through his office, has any police 16agistrate or iblinniissioner given any special directions that policeinen shall watch the house and pro ceedings of Kossuth in this metropolis. (Hear, hear.) Lord4AVVIERSTON; , . I have given no special direc tions wi4t , regard to Kossuth, but it is the general duty of the police;; if they have any suspicion about any person, as they probably had in this case, to ascertain the facts upon which a charge may be substantiated, or may be otherwise disposed of. (Hear, hear.) Mr. COBDEN th4rose to address some further ques tion to the Home Secrelarjr, but The SPEAKER said that the noble lord the member for Tiverton had already spoken twice, and was not en titled to speak again on this question. The subjeCt then dropped for a few moments, and was succeeded by a brief interlude about Ml' MONEY. Mr. FAG AN beg N ged ISTERS to ask the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for Ireland whether a measure on the sub ject of ministers' mow . would be brought forward during the present session, and ; if so, whether it would be intro duced before or after Whitsuntide ? Sir J. YOUNG replied that the question of ministers' money was one which, had - occupied the attention of the Government for a long time past. The draft of a bill had been prepared, but ho did not wish to present it to the house without making a preliminary statement. As soon as he could get a day for the purpose he would introduce the bill. - (Hear.) Mr. MAGUIRE said that this question had been pitched about from one Government to another, and he should be 'glad to be informed whethe r it was really the intention of the Government to bring in a measure on the subject this session? _ Sir J. YOUNG could only reply by asking the hon. member what ground Elie had for doubting his (Sir J. Young's) word ? The former subject was then resumed by Mr. COBDEN—I suppose, sir, you are the authority without appeal on all points of order, but if it be the rule of the house that the Minister for the Home Department can only be allowed to answer one question on such an oc casion and on such a subject as we have been discussing, I think it would be well to consider whether it might not lie well to relax it in order to promote the dispatch of busi ness. If, however, the noble lord, the Home Secretary, cannot answer the question I wish to put, probably the noble lord the member for London (Lord J. Russell) can. I wish to impress upon . the house that we are not here dealing with the ordinaty case of an ordinary person. We are dealing with a man who was long engaged in main taining in his own country the legality of the constitution of that country, and he was supported by the whole body, not of the poorer classes merely, but of the whole of the aristocracy. I say that when such a man comes to this country, having held that distinguished post of honour, his case is not that of an ordinary refugee, .but it is that of a man placed under the smguarct or tars country, the in cidents of whose life are minutely watched by the world, and will be as minutely recorded in the history of the times—and as he is treated by us will honour or discredit attach to us in reference to. him. (Hear, hear.) When I first read of this matter, and when I first read the state ment in the Times, I ,tlioright it my duty to call on M. Kossuth and ask him if there was any foundation for that statement, and he gave me his word as a man of honour that he had, no more concern with the transactions re ferred to by the writer in that paper than had the Speaker of the House 'of Ctimmons. (Hear, hear.) It was true, he said, he had recommended a foreign refugee (one who had not done him much credit—(hear)—to Mr. Hale for employment, but he had no connexion with Mr. Hale, or with the manufacture carried on by him. He was invited to call on Mr. Hale to go over his factory as I might have been, and as I have been invited to go over Mr. Colt's factory • and I might as well b e c h arge d w ith b e ing connected with Mr. Colt on that ground, as M. Kossuth was charged with being connected with Mr. Hale. And with regard to recommending a man for employment, M. Kossuth has numerous unfortunate refugees constantly calling upon him to aid them in obtaining employment, and I am speaking within the mark when I say I have had at least a dozen applications from M. Kossuth to assist his countrymen in that way. This is the whole basis of the charge. Some prying individual found that a Hungarian was working at Mr. Hale's, and because M. Kossuth re commended him he connected that gentleman with the rocket manufacture carried on by Mr. Hale. Now, I think it would not have been below the dignity of the Home Secretary, if he had given the opportunity to M. Kossuth to clear himself. I do not think the ex-Governor of Hungary is so far below the dignity of the Home Secre tary of England as to make such a course impossible. And if the noble lord had done so, if instead of sending police men to watch M. Kossuth's house, and dog him about, he had taken means to allow that gentleman to explain, and if the noble lord had thus obtained, as he would have done, M. Kossuth's word of honour, that he had no connection with anything of the kind charged against him, that would have been sufficient—for he apprehended M. Kossuth was as much entitled to credence as any member of the Orleans family visiting our Court. I make no distinctions, and as regards M. Kossuth I think ho is as much entitled to re spect and honour as any member of the Orleans family, who are habitually received at Windsor. (Hear.) I make no complaint of the hospitality that is shown to the Or leans family ; but I say that it would be disgraceful to any man in this country, and more especially to any mem ber of this house, if he did not vindicate the right to hospi tality of this country, on behalf of those who carry with them the good-will of the mass of their own countrymen, which is the case with M. Kossuth, and if any one is al lowed to dog the steps of illustrious refugees, and it is found out, we are bound to visit it with our rebrobation, and public opinion will do the same. I have seen M. Kos suth, and have advised with him. I told him—" You live under the same law as I do, but if you ask me what the law of England is, I cannot tell you, for at any mo ment some old law may be exhumed for a particular occa sion, as has been done now." I advised him to put him self under the advice of a shrewd lawyer, and I do not believe ho will be caught violating the law of the country, for which he has too much respect. The question I want to put to the noble lord is, whether any communication has been made to the magistrates, or the police authorities with reference to any proceedings for watching the house of M. Louis Kossuth. (Hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL—Before I answer the question which the hon. gentleman has put, I mus t a d ver t to - the former part of his speech, because it is of great importance that we should have some notion as to what is the policy of this country towards these and other refugees ; and I quite agree with the hon. gentleman when he says that we ought to apply the same rule to all refugees, and I care little what may be their rank or s t a ti on . It, may be a prince of high lineage who maintains extreme doctrines with regard to absolute monarchy, or it may be a person of humble station who holds extreme notions with regard to republi can institutions ; I care not which it may be, the rule ought to be the same. (Hear, hear.) Then what is that rule? It is not so very obscure in its general principle. It is founded in the first place on the law of England, and in the second place it is founded on that law in relation to the great international law which governs the intercourse of nations. The law of England allows refugees, from whatever cause they may have suffered, or by whatever power they may have been proscribed, to come to this country and live undisturbed. This is the general law, and in accordance with that law many persons of various ranks have of late years taken refuge here ; and that honourable distinction of this country is not owing to any minister of the present day, but it is the ancient law of this country that any one can find refuge here, and I will never depart from that l aw o f j us t an d equal hospitality. But if on the one hand that is clearly the law, on the other hand it can as little be doubted that refugees who receive our hospitality, and who reside in safety under the shadow of our laws, so long as they are in safety ought not to abuse that hospitality by levying war against any other country, whether it be a republic or a monarchy, which is at peace with this country. It has been said, with respect, to the individual in question, that M. Kossuth was a per son of illustrious rank, who was governor of Hungary, and who had endeavoured to maintain the ancient constitution of that country. I will not enter into any controversy on that subject ; but I may say that there some who assert that there are two opinions on that point. It is thought by some persons that he fought on behalf of the cause of Hungary, and that he did all that a patriot could to maintain her ancient constitution. But there are others who think that, from want of judgment and im prudence, he had damaged the character of the con stitution of that country, and brought her into collision with Austria, and so was the author of the calamities which had befallen her. There are those two opi nions entertained, and it is not for me to say which is the right one. However M. Kossuth comes to this country and receives our hospitality; he comes not like a person who was unknown, but as one who came with a liberty which he had obtained chiefly through the exertions of my noble friend when Secretary for Foreign Affairs ; who, speaking in the name of England, urged on Turkey to per severe in the hospitality which, to her honour, she had afforded to those exiles, and oven offered the support of the arms of this country to Turkey if she should be attacked while performing the duties of hospitality ; and, finally, he urged on Turkey not to continue the confinement of M. Kossuth, but to allow him to come to this country. I say then, if any one ought to be bound not only by the general law of this country, which breathes such a spirit of hospi tality, but by peculiar ties of gratitude to the Govern ment, M. Kossuth is bound to obey the laws of this coun try, and not to do anything which may involve her in any cause of quarrel with any nation. The hon. gentleman says that M. Kossuth has scrupulously obeyed the laws which he found to be in force, and has lived without giv ing any cause of offence to those who administer them. The hon. gentleman is well acquainted with M. Kossuth, and the fact may be as he has stated it. At the same time I cannot wonder that suspicions should be aroused of a contrary nature ; for we cannot but recollect that we have seen in the newspaper to which the hon, gentleman has referred a letter or proclamation addressed by M. Kossuth to the subjects of a foreign sovereign, calling on them to rise against that sovereign, and urging his soldiers to . leave their colours and engage in hostility of the most deadly kind kind against that state, and that proclamation lished in connection with the insurrection at 31ilan no. has been stated on behalf of M. Kossuth that he had _ e t in it. But it is certain that when he was at authorised its publication, and that charges had lc b u e t e a n ya n h ia n d e gave a paper of this kind to a person, thus ef l A )oi u " , t t i i n i g a. " l t the duty of insurrection to the subjects say that it was an imprudent and unjustifiable act in him, ono to be used for the purpose a s vo o while residing in a foreign country, to f give ins u insurrection. oern.to Notany fp . ,s ic a o , s a s i t n i Kossuth that it is his purpose to makewa only this, we have seen it lately war On ve s d ov b e y re M i several Hungarians hon. g n a i r em ian li s er co fo n i . terms of amity with this country; whose tyranny and whose rule lie pro a te m s i ts m , , a h n e ( n l N .l l l l ll .o o a b a d i:e i on ththiss Westthat N i Vg i C i h u La s n i e n T i y, stated tii at uceted with M. Kossuth were employed in the manufacture of rockets for the purposes of war—l say that when all these circumstances are put together, it is not to be won dered at that the police should suspect that he had some time estaintaekies,rtehpaotrttsh.oefeomrssoiof circumstancesnmer.. intention of levying war against a foreign sovereign. With regard to the question asked by the hon. gentleman N , i ol r knowledge, whether affecting M. ow n fohbi Police noble friend, f r f n nr d ioe , m a tl time that h et Kossuth or any other person, which induce them to believe that any crime is meditated. I do not think friend h as sa i d think it right f or l t n h i e a t t o t h s s e r y e more o e t vi h a d n e n th () i os forwheimh a yno n indict men t could be founded against any person but m always maintai n , th a t w hi le on the o r n . eilhaalned. w ß e u ar t e l to sh u a u l d ] to extend our hospitality to those. persons, on the other hand. we are bound by our obligations to foreign states not to th a a t ll w ow hic p h er m so y ns ri r g e h s t id h inogii.this country to bo guilty of infriend the .member for Morpeth, when he was Home Secret against the law of this col rjr' declared to be a crime against foreign states.in . ry—tliat is, the levying war Wish to say a few words more with regard to a statement which has been made, that al these proceedings arose in consequence of communications received from the Gover nment of Austria. The nature of the communications which have been made to us by the Government of Austria I will state in general terms. Nothing in the nature of a demand or specific requirement has been made by the Government of Austria to the Government of this country. On the contrary, the Go vernment of Austria has repeatedly stated that they asked nothing, and wished it to be understood that no demand was made by them ; but they have stated that they felt aggrieved by proceedings which were carried on here, but that it was for the government of England, on which they placed perfect reliance, to take such measures as they should think fit with regard to them. It was not unnatural, when insurrection was going on, that they should represent that their Government was disturbed, and liable to attacks from various quarters, and that sometimes attempts at as sassination were made by men connected with persons who are attempting to overthrow the Government of the coun try ; and we ow that many of those who are connected wits those proceedings are in England. Ido not say that those complaints are.justiiied, but it is the bounden duty of the Government, while they say we will not change our law, and we will allow all persons to.come to and remain in this country undistarbed, to see that the laws of this country, and our international relations are not violated. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. WALMSLEY said the noble lord was in error in supposing that the letter or proclamation to which he had alluded was written in this country. So far from its being written in this country, it was written when M. Kossuth was a prisoner, and before he had ever been in England. The most serious hardship against M. Kossuth was the employment of spies. That charge had not yet been an swered. (Hear hear.) It was a most grievous outrage that the police should dog the steps of that illustrious exile, and of all those who called upon him or inquired after him. If he lightly understood the noble lord, he (Sir J. Walms ley) could assure him that this question would not rest here. (Cheers.) If what was stated was true, that per sons were absolutely sent to the house of M. Kossuth to assist in the removal of his goods that they might act as spies about the premises, then it was clear that those per sons must have been employed by somebody—if not by the noble lord at the head of the Home Department, then it roust have been by the police. (Hear, hear.) A com mittee of inquiry ought to be instituted; and if no ono else would do so, he would himself move for an inquiry. (Hear, hear.) THE B UDGET.—ADJOURNED DEBATE. The house then went into committee of Ways and Means. The resolution for raising a supply by way of duties on all property in the - United Kingdom being read, Arr. LAWLESS rose to move, by way amendment, that the words " Great Britain" be substituted for " United Kingdom." If he were asked why he had not voted in the minority the other night, he would reply that ho was not only member forClonmel, but had an interest in the budget, ash question for the kingdom at large, and regarded the principle of it as a step in the right direction. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was the ‘first who had the courage to leap over the park-wall of the privileged classes, and place on their shoulders, in the shape of a legacy duty, a fair share of the burdens which they had hitherto escaped. Ho regarded the amendment of the hon. baronet as nothing more than an attempt to keep up those fences and park walls, and to bring back the late Government to power, and he had therefore voted against it, but that vote would not prevent his resisting the extension of the income tax to Ireland, and, whatever might be the result, he would most certainly press his motion to a division. He desired to prevent the late Government being restored to power for many reasons. First; ho remembered that they had pro posed to extend the income tax to funded property and salaries in Ireland, and he understood that they would not have opposed the motion of which the hon. baronet (Sir whatsoever that the e ß x . t H en a s l i l l g o a f ve th n e et ta ie x e, twohaelln in country. This motion would be a good test of their opinim: p th ro e p y ert w y ere in power, on the subject. They all knew that at the last election every Liberal Irish member felt himself bound to do his best to turn out the Government, which, by their inflam matory placards, had raised the disturbances at Stockport, which were used as a war cry during the Irish elections. ("Hear" from the Opposition.) He trusted such scenes as occurred at Six-mile-bridge, and elsewhere, in consequence, would never be seen again. But if they were to form an alliance with the members of that Government, after they had done all they could to put them out of power, and pre vent their exciting agitation and religious discord in Ire land, the most simple peasant would be puzzled what to think of his representatives, or to explain the conduct of those who professed to be the leaders of public opinion in Ireland. A very excellent and patriotic man, Mr. Henry Grattan, was turned out of Meath last year because he had voted for a coercion bill at a time when it was necessary. The present member for Meath, his successor, was moving heaven and earth at present to restore to power a Govern ment whose constant pastime had been to give Ireland coercion bills, and who, when last in power, had threatened the priests, who were really the best guardians of the public peace. He had not voted for the amendment, be cause he was opposed to the object its movers had in view, but it did not follow that he accepted the propositions of the budget. On the contrary, there was evidence to show that Ireland was in such a state of distress even now as to be unable to bear her share of the income tax. He did not wish to exempt any class able to meet taxation, nor would he say but that in Ulster and parts of the south they were able to pay taxes as well as in many parts of England ; but he contended that the country was only in a state of convalescence and not able to undergo such a heavy Infliction so soon after the sufferings of the famine. It was not generally known here how heavily Ireland was taxed. By a return recently obtained by the hon. mem ber for the University of Dublin it appeared, on a view of the comparative taxation of both countries, that the amount spread over the whole of Ireland was 3s. 71d. in pound, while in England it was only 2s. 41d. in the pound, thus giving an excess of ls. 3d. on Irish over the aggregate of Irish taxation. Even in England an income tax, when brought to bear against small traders, was a most unad visable measure, and in resisting its application to Ireland he had no object but to avert the tax from those in that country who would be crushed by this addition to a bur den which they at present could hardly bear. The income tax would not only very much retard progress in the small boroughs of the south and west of Ireland, but would accelerate greatly the emigration going on there, which was taking from the country all the most useful artisans and workmen. He did approve of the rest of the budget, but not of the application of the income tax to Ireland, and he would do his utmost, upon that question, to ascertain correctly the sense of the House. He hoped the time would come when Ireland would be well able to bear her fair share of the national burdens, but, as he believed that time had not yet arrived, ho begged to move that the words " Great Britain" be introduced in each line of the resolution before the committee, in place of the words " United Kingdom." Colonel DUNNE said, his hon. friend in not supporting the amendment made the other night.by the hon. baronet the member for Hertfordshire (Sir B. Lytton) seemed to him to have missed the only feasible opportunity of attain ing the object he desired, and was attempting instead to follow a course in which he must be aware he had scarcely any hope of succeeding. (Hear, hear.) The proper moment having been allowed to piss by, this was neither the time nor the occasion for bringing forward such a mo tion, and he thought it of so futile a character that he should have been inclined to walk out of the house, had he not by so doing rendered himself liable to misconstruction out of doors. He would vote in favour of any Ministry that would impose a just taxation on Ireland ; but it must be remembered that the same taxation was not always au equal taxation as between England and his own country. (Hear.) That was the position taken up by those Irish members who had opposed the budget. He maintained that the remission of the consolidated annuities was by no means an equivalent for the imposition of the income tax. It must be remembered that when additional taxation was imposed on England it generally returned to that country in some form, for the dockyards, arsenals, and Government establishments were nearly all situated there ; but Ireland had no such return,, and this was one of the things that made the imposition of additional taxation upon her un just. If the hon. member succeeded in the motion he had proposed no one would be more glad of his success than he (Colonel Dunne) would be • but he repeated that he did no t think the hon. member had adopted the proper mode of securing the object he aimed at. (Hear, h ear .) Mr. V. SCULLY wished to remark that the Irish mem bers who had voted for the budget on Monday night had done so upon a balance of the measures proposed regard ing Ireland, and the hon. and gallant colonel who had just sat down had apparently adopted the same course when he recorded his vote for an income tax for Ireland upon Mr. Blacken motion of the sth of March, 1849, before the hon. and gallant colonel had ostensibly allied himself to the party with whom ho now acted. (Colonel Dunne—"I did not vote for that motion.") He (Mr. V. Scully) was not for an income tax to Ireland if he could possibly avoid it. But if he supported the Government !proposal it was because it would be a relief to small farmers of the dis tressed districts which he represented. (Hear.) In March, 1852, he told his Constituents he would do all he could to •get rid of the consolidated annuities. There were some, favourable circumstances in the condition of Ireland. Ile remembered the time when he only obtained lls. for . wool , for which ho expected in a few weeks to realise 235. 6(1. (Hear.) Beef and mutton, too, were fetching high prices —far greater than could be expected if so large a portion were not consumed in England. (Hear.) He thought that a change in the incidence of taxation would benefit the people of Ireland. If, however, this budget should pass, he should always consider that every shilling of the famine advances was repaid. The income tax for 7 years would realise 480,0001. a year—that would be 3,000,000/. The increase in the spirit duties would bring in 250,0001. which at 20 'years' purchase, would be 4,000,000/. Then there were the succession duties, which would realise 2,000,0001. more, so that, in one way o r another, the Govern ment'would realise 8,000,0001. or 10,000,0001. for the Eng lish Exchequer by the present budget. He would not run • away to-night, but st a y and give his vote on this proposi tion. (Cheers.) H o might betoldof what the peopl e o f Ireland would say if he voted against the proposition of the hon. member (Mr. Lawless). He did not care one far thing what the people of Ireland might think for the mo ment. (Cheers and laughter.) Ile would look to what they would think when they understood the question. (Hear, hear.) Ho would look into -the question for them. He would look to the interests of that great coun t y of C or k, which produced the ablest m e n o f Ireland. (Laugh ter.) He would not deny that ablethere*ieninreo they had men in Ire land who might come to a contrary. o not the means which h e possessed- of ) formin but g an opinion upon the spot. (Hoar, hear.) He was sent here as the representative of his constituents • the said it with great respect—his representatives.'ywere not—and he Ho should like to see 100 of his teint -farmers in London. asking him to give an account of ‘ his conduct in Parlia ment, in reference to the vote he was about t o g i ve . H e should have a very selfish account to render to them, if, to absolve his per sona l property from i them with theincome tax, h e sa ddl e d Payment of the consolidated annuities for 40 years. He should not, therefore, object t o see an i ncome tax levied upon Ireland,an if it wore divested of its i nqu i s i• torial character, levied, for example, u p on f un d s , salaries; sh ares in public companies, t and landlords' rents, with a due deduction fo s r h a a n r n e u o i f ie t s h a e n i d i . enliairs i , which should also bear 'their recom mended that a deputation of the Iriill 'a m l- enabe e rs s c' lioulsee the Chancellor of the Exchequer, .which they had done . ; and they had also seen Sir 3. Young. They were told that the income tax would be introduced into Ireland, with mitigatory circumstances, and with as little of an inquisi torial character as possible. A fanner, holding land at a rent of between 2001. and 3001. a-year, would not he be lieved, be assessed at all, and those who paid rent exceed ing 300/. a-year and upwards wind(' bo assessed at one third instead of one-half their rent. The Irish members had also urged that 270,0001., the amount of arrears of the Consolidated annuities due from the distressed unions, should be remitted. He trusted that the clergy of Ireland would be leniently dealt with. (Oh !) The Protestant clergy were heavily taxed to the poor-rates, anti ,l theweline , comes of.the Roman Catholic and Presbyteri 4.5" their e oCks that ) so grievously reduced by they ought not to be ofealletdhteindoenpatrott4epor_t the state which did not support th em. (Oh 1) At '" fit th e y ought not to CHESTER RACES. (THIS DAY.) (BY ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.) WIRRAL STAKES. Eliegtllllcolt, 1 za, ................... 2 CHESHIRE STAKES. Xoh-i-Noor .. 1 Lathe................................................ 2 ................................................ ;.-. ~ . ra o• bo 01 1 ° — r fo;' t he t th e rwe r ter 11 in io 0 1 ' )o Se 9O „t 1 2120 v :e t* P 5 0 of Per