The Sun. — London, England, 1822-07-02 00:00:00

evervices, the actual sum: he calcUlated would be '51,119,000 This deducted from - - - - 54,252,000 Left a surplus of - - 3,133,000 But this was taking .a very unfair view of the subject, be cause if they had in consideration the saving that would ac crue from the country being relieved-from the Five per Cents. the result would be very different from that at which they would arrive from calculating the expenditure according to the charge which the country bad to bear in January, 1822, There would be a saving of 700,000/. from that source, and a further saving of 1,200,000/. from the operation of the Com missioners for the payment of the Army and Navy pensions...— These added to the sum which he had already mentioned made a clear surplus somewhat exceeding five millions. That he might not be mistaken, he would state to the House what he calculated as the prospective estimate of the income, for the year ending January 5, 1824. He would take the customs for tareat Britain the . same asin 1822 - - 10,700,000 For Ireland - t- - - - - 1,155,000 that being also the same as last year. Estimating the produce of the Excise, and considering the effect of the repeal of taxes, he would take its amount at a million under the present year, 25,000,000 The Stamps - . - 6,600,000 ' Post-office - - 1,300,000 Assessed Taxes - - - - 7,300,000 And with the probable amount of old stores, &c. he would as sume the total income of the country for the year ending the 'sth of January, 1824, to be 51,600,0001. To which adding the advances to be made by the Commissioners for the payment of naval and military pensions and other sourcesaif revenue, there would be 4,870,0001. ; making the total ,income amount to 56,470,0001, He then set against this the probable charge for the unfunded debt, the miscellaneous charges on the Consoli dated Fund, the Army Estimates, stated. at - - 7,700,000 The Navy - - 5,500,000 The Ordnance 1,200,000 'Miscellaneous - - - - a 1,500,000 Amounting in the whole to more than - - - 50,000,000 This deducted frpm the estimated income would leave a sur plus of 6,000m01. Taking then the two years together, the clear sum applicable' to the reduction of the Debt, would ex ceed 10,000,0001. He therefore hoped that he might congra tulate the House on having realized the prospects held out to the House by his Noble Friend in the early part of the Session, of gaining in the course of this year a clear . Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001. Though it should not amount precisely to that sum in the course of the present year, he thought ie had proved that on the most moderate calculation they might expect to realize in the course of this and the next year a clear surplus of . 10,000,0001. always bearing in mind the operation of the mea sure for the payment of the Naval and .31ilitary Pensions. He had already touched upon thee circumstance of the re duction of the Five per Cents. He could not refrain from again calling the attention of the Committee to an arrange, merit so satisfactory and' beneficial to the country. He doubted if any man could have ventured to hope that a measure of such magnitude could have - been carried into effect with so much ease; and with such general acquies cence. From every thing which they had experienced, it would have been expected that the difficulties in the way would have been found much greater. The manner in which the measure had been carried into execution proved, if such proof had been wanted, to foreign nations and to ourselves, the solidity of our credit and the immense ex -tent of our resources. It had been one objection to that ar rangement that it was likely to be injurious to the stockholder. This opinion was not borne out by the result. ' The funds were at this moment considerably higher than they were when this measure was proposed. Instead then of the holder of the five per cents. having any ground of complaint, they had a right to say that he had profited to the full extent upon which he could have calculated. The beneficial arrangement, arising out of the Resolution of that House to support public credit, had already introdoced other advantages. The Resolution lately come to by the Bank fbr discounting at four per cent. was one of them. that circumstance could not have been expected to take place iiad, not Parliament led the way, by setting the example of reducing the'rate of interest. This came in aid of the reso -1'; Lion of Parliament to support public credit, and he knew of ro circumstance more likely to give effectual relief to the 'public than the resolution which had been so adopted by the .Bank. He had heard that day of a singular fact growing out of that resolution: A sale had taken place under an , order of the Court of Chancery. It brought a much larger sum than was expected, and upon the Solicitor who purchased it being asked how he came to give so much, his reply was, that he had given 50001. more than he originally intended to offer in consequence of the reduction of interest by the Bank. lie considered this a most gratifying fact, and could not but -hope that the transaction referred to would prove the prelude to many others of the same kind. There were those who en tertained the opinion that a forced operation for the reduc etion of the interest of 'money would be advantageous; but to acting on such a plan, he for one was averse. He could only , approve of regulating the interest of money by means previous ly known to out laws. The best thing they could do was, to ,adhere to the old regulation, and for any thing further than that which had' been ahead . ) , sanctioned by the House, he could -mot give his vote. He did not know that it was necessary for him to occupy more of their time; but, if any circumstance should call for further explanation than he had given - , he should be Happy •to afford it. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his first Resolution, which was—That a sum of 7,600,0001. should be granted for the service of the year. Mr. DIABERLY said, that he laboured tinder great disad -vantage in following the alight lion. Gentleman, not having before him those papers necessary to his understanding fully 'the subject. He had understood the Right Hon. Gentleman sufficiently however, to perceive that the sinking fund was put forward by him as what he might call the hocus porus of the year. lie had taken from that fund, and added to it in such a mariner, that it was impossible to make the true state of it at all 'intelligible, without a distinct discussion with regard to it. The -next point was the debt of the East India Company, upon which topic he m us t sa y, t h at h e f oun d some difficulty in com prehending the sort of liquidation that had been made. He was sorry that it had been pressed to a settlement ; for it now -appeared that we were debtors to the Company, and at all events we were minus, as regarded that Company, 1,300,0001. —The Right Hon. Gentleman then went to the Finances of 1823, and from this part of his statement, the House and the country had learned that the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Colleagues had come to the end of their reductions of the pub lic expenditure. For in his estimate of the year 1823, he took all the estimates for the present year at the same amount for. the next. It appeared plainly, therefore, that they had come •to the end of their. savings. But he should say, that if they were to have six millions of Sinking Fund next year, at this .eate, they ought to have nine and ten millions if those reduc tions were made which ought to be made. The Noble Marquis opposite, whore he chould call the Finance Minister, informed them at the commencement 'of the Session, that he grounded all his measures upon the maintenance of public credit, and that upon that principle, no reduction of taxation could be made, but what was aflbrded by the reduction of the Five par Cents. Previously to this, however, he • had stated, that no reduction of taxation was to be made, and that it would afford no relief if it were made. The House had all heard of a speech, delivered no matter where, which stated that if the farmer were acquainted with the first principles of poli tical economy, he would know that the reduction of taxation would afford him no relief—that the principles of nature, if left to fructify, would restore things to their proper state; • but that any advantage accruing to the farmer from a remission of ;.taxes, would be taken from him by the landlord. This speech was made in February, and he contended that the principles there laid down "were entirely departed from in the subsequent financial operations' of the Noble Marquis. The annuity Plan was a complete violation of the principle of the Sinking Fund, by placing a certain 'portion of debt upon posterity, to re lieve the present generation. The way that he (Mr. Ma_ Nerdy) should have recommended them to reduce taxation, would have been by reducing the whole expenditure of the country. The Committee of Finance of 1817 had' declared, as their deliberate opinion, that the charge of the. Army, Navy, Ordnance, and 'Miscellaneous Services, should not for the fu ture exceed 17,350,0001. Since that year, however, these services had regularly - exceeded that, and the total excess had been 6,190,0001. This year there was only a decrease of 800 : 0001. as compared with the last. He was sure that if the Committee of 1817 could have foreseen that a reduction of 30 per cent. in all articles would take place, they would have made the Esti mates much lower. No saving, therefore, had in 'fact been made on this head, as would appear by their comparing the present Estimates thus reduced with the amount which the Committee of Finance had stated the Estimates at, which he contended was the proper test by, which to judge of the apparent reduction. Gob ernment should have reformed abuses, and particularly have pruned away the excrescent abuses of the mode of collecting the Revenue. ',Co give the Hue an idea of this, he would state a few facts. The revenue of the Excise amounted to thirty millions, and the charge for collection was 1,420,0001. being at the rate of 41. 19s. per cent. The Customs produced soMewhat less than 13 millions, - and the expense of collection was 1;479,000L being at the rate of 13 per cent. He begged the House to look at this remarkable difference—the lesser suyi requiring the larger amount for collection. This surely demanded investigation. He should ,next go to the Hackney-coaches, which produced 26,0001, the expense of collection was four thousand pounds. The Hawkers and Pedlars' duty, yielding 31,0001. cost 60001. to collect, being at the average rate for the two last mentioned of twenty-two per cent. These were the taxes they ought to re peal, which cost so much for collection. With regard to Ire land, the same exorbitant rate wits apparent. The Custonis and Excise averaged twenty-two per cent. for collection. surely the House would not tolerate the continuance of such an abuse. They ought to have Committees of that House Upon this subject. Commissioners were very good, but by no means equal to Committees of that House for inquiry. They did not possess the same power. With regard to the Colonies, whieh were a source of expence, instead of revenue, he must say that it would be far better that the department belonging to the, Right Hon. Secretary for the Woods and Forests, should be conducted by the Commissariat, by which it could be done at so much less expence. He would next go to the dead weight, which he must say was.unfairly managed. Instead of filling up new official appointments from the retired List, new ones were brought forward, whilst the old remained a dead Weight as before. He would take the liberty of proiing what lie asserted, by a reference to the Lottery department, by which would be seen the'improper persons chosen to put into office as far as age went. Looking at the list of persons of first appoint. ments, here lie found an individual of 47 years of age put in to a first appointment with a salary of 2251. a year. Here, he was sure, it would strike the House as it had struck him, that a younger person might have been Selected from the half pay, which would have possessed a double advantage. Upon this list, however, he found the second appointment was a person of 57 years of age ; the third 53 ; the fourth 45 ; the next 47, and, the following ones, 21, 24, 69, 36, 46, 34 ; all of which, he contended, might have gone to reduce by so much the dead weight on the country. In the department of the Hawkers and Pedlars, and Hackney Coaches, the same practice was visible. The appointments there for salaries of 301. a year, first ap pointments, were 37 and 62 years of age, and then went on from 26 to 70 years, affording as he thought a tolerable san - ple of a desire rather to add to than diminish the dead weight. Wiwn the concerns of the Bank of England came to be dis cussed,before that House, he undertook to shew that instead of three per cent. they received six. It appeared that their mili tary establishments were of a much larger extent on account of the state of Ireland ; and indeed in looking back it was found that at all times latterly this had been the case, arising as he contended frorn the maladministration of the affairs of that country, and also from the absOlute weakness they suf fered from all the capital being taken out of the country, which should there be employed for the support of the la bouring classes.—(Hear, hear !)—There was no way, he was Convinced, to bring about an effectual reduction of taxation but the appointment of Committees of that House thoroughly to examine into the abuses in the mode of collecting the revenue, and make a complete revision of our finance sys tem. From expressing these sentiments he did not wish it to go abroad that he took a gloomy view of the situation of the. country. The cultivators of the soil were in a state of consi derable distress, and nothing would be more grateful to them than a reduction of taxation ; and regarding the present situa= tion of all the great interests of the country, he thought this was the best time to look into these matters. The talent, the industry, the knowledge, and science of the nation, were in creasing, and wohld enable them to pay even greater than their present burdens, but that formed no justification for in creasing them unfairly. He was convinced the country would go on in increasing prosperity, not in consequence of its good Government, but in spite of its bad one. -He would abstain from further taking up their time, as many opportunities would occur for addressing them ;again on these subjects. He hail rather on the present occasion confine himself to what the Noble Marquiis opposite, the real Finance Minister, had thrown out when lie first opened the Budget to them in the early part of the Session.--(Hear !) Mr. ,ELLIOE said, that he could not collect from the state ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer what the intention of Government was as to the ex penses of the present year, and what they were to be for the future. By the estimates proposed by the Right Hon. Gentle man for the year 1823, it was manifest that every thing was to be kept up exactly the same as they were for the present year— at least that Government did not intend to make any reduction. Another ingredient in the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement was the Sinking Fund , He never comprehended the Right Hon. Gentleman's statements in former, years and was certain.. ly far from comprehendin g hi s statement of that evening.__ The _Right Honourable Gentleman said, that he had a sur plus revenue of 5,000,0001. for 'the present, and would have in the next and the ensuing years, a surplus of 10,000,0001. more. The surplus of the present year was stated at 5,000,0001. but 1,800,0001. was borrowed from the East India Company. Another item, charged on the Sinking Fund, was the 2,400,0001. for the payment of the dead weight falling on the country in the payment of the Naval and Military Pensions. Both those items, added together, made a whole of 4,200,0001. to be taken from the Sinking Was not the Sinking Fund then entirely gone ? He did not know whether he stated those items correctly, becau: . e he did not understand the Right Hon. Gentleman. A. sum no less than 5,000,0001. was lost to the public by the frequent lending and borrowing, and by the mismanagement of Government, gene rally, with respect to the Sinking Fund. The funds might advance, because there was nothing seen, by the Right Hon. Gentleman in the state of Europe, to give him reason to appre hend any disturbance of peace. But if any thing happened to interrupt that peace, what would the consequence be ? The whole accounts respectino• the Sinking Fund ought to be re vised and simplified. '"No doubt but the finances of the country were in a flourishing state. If there was a sur plus revenue of 5,000,0001. beyond expenditure, taxation ought to be reduced to that extent. He had heard of a pe tition presented to the House, praying for a reduction of the interest on the National Debt. He was not surprised at such petitions, although he could not agree in the prayer, because if Parliament once broke faith with the public, there would be no end to the violation of contracts. lie, however, agreed that the income of the fundholder was increasing, while every other interest was decreasing. In 1814 the public credi tors' property, the three percents. were sold for 531. per cent., and gold was 51, per ounce. At present the 3 per cents. were 81, and gold 31. 17s. 10id. per ounce. The fundholde r 's pro perty was doubled, while the farmer's had decreased in the fame proportion, or rather Was annihilated by the misconduct of Parliament. The House onght to look into that state of things, with a view to reduce the National Debt by some fair contribu tion. When the fundholder's property doubled, while the farmer's was entirely destroyed, he was not surprised to hear the latter petition for reducing the income of the former, and at the,same time lessening their own burthens. A relief ought to be granted in the remission of taxation to the e x t en t o f t h e 1 surplus of the revenue beyond the expenditure. Mr. RICARDO observed, that the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite hid laid great stress upon the existence of the Sink ing Fund to the .amount of five millions this year, and had promised them one of six Millions for th e year 1824, if all went on as he anticipated. But the only Sinking Fund there could be must be a surplus of revenue ;• and looking at it in this . way, he contended that there was but 1,400,0001. The total amount of their revenue Was '53,807,0001.; the total amount of ex penditure was 51,839,0001., leaving a surplus of 1,968,0001. —But the Right Honourable Gentleman said they were to add the 700,0001. gained by the reduction of the Five per Cents. Allowing that, there appeared but 2,600,0001. ; but, at the same time, he must say that he was totally at a loss to conceive upon what pretence he .took that in. That was the amount of it according to his own statement ; but .let them look at the amount of Revenue paid into the Exchequer, which was 54,200,000/. ; out of that they paid 52,600,000/. leaving., as he had originally stated, betwixt one and two mil lions of surplus only. The Right Hon. Gentleman made some allusion to the Usury Laws, and he certainly had not expected that he would add that this was not the time to alter those ab- surd laws. In his opinion the precise time for such an alters_ Lyon was when the mArket rate of interest was lower.than the legal rate. At whatever rate the Bank lent money, it could not affect the market rate of interest long. He certainly was glad that they now lent money at 4 per cent. ; but it was quite obvious that the Bank could not for any material period affect the rate of interest of money. , He did not know what to make of the case stated by the Right Hon. Gentleman of a Solicitor giving 5000/. more for an estate because the Bank discounted at 4 percent. Mr. J. MARTIN regretted that the Chancellor of the Ex chequer had not called their attention to the deficiency of the Consolidated Fund, which he thought was a subject of great importance to the country. Mr. HUME said,.that in 1815, the permanent annual public debt was 25 millions, since which time it had become twenty nine millions. Instead of reducing this, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that next year the annual permanent charge should be 31 millions. The unfunded debt was also to be increased 5 millions. There was no prospect of a reduction at all. lie could not in any way see that there was any sur plus ; but, on the contrary, that there was an increase of 5 millions at least. He should be glad to see how this could be reconciled with the Right Hon. Gentleman's congratulations with respect to the state in which his operations had placed the country: Mr. , LUSHINGTON said, he thought his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer hod distinctly shewn that we had a clear surplus revenue of between four and five millions. If the Hon. Member for Eortarlington - would make a fair deduction of the expenditure from the Revenue, he would arrive at the exact, sum of 4,961,0001., which was all that was stated as the amount of the Sinking Fund. With re spect to his Right Hon. Friend's statement of the settlement of the East India Company's debt, he thought he was entitled to take credit to himself for arranging -a debt, which had ex isted for so many years, and he might say that it,had been done with fairness and even liberality. He repeated that, notwith standing the cheer of the Hon. Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham). That Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not seen the papers, or he might think with him, that they were fully entitled to 1,300,0001. The Hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Moberly) had complained of the inefficiency of Commissioners of Inquiry, and thought Committees of that House preferable. He assured the, Hpn. Gentleman that he thought that one ' Commission of Inquiry was worth all the Committees that had ever sat. By their aid the present Government had done more in the last five years than all the other Governments that had preceded it for the last century.—(Hear„ hear !)—Their retrenchments and improvements were particularly apparent in the Excise and Customs DepartMents. With regard to another part of the Hon. Member for Abingdon's speech, he assured him that since the passing of the Superannuation Act, his:Ma jesty's Government had had an eye to the necessity of appoint ing persons not too old for office.—(Hear !) Mr. RICARDO and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mutually explained. Mr. CALCRAFT thought the Right Hon. Gentleman for got, in taking credit to himself for 500,0001. to be paid by the East India Company, that, by receiving that, we cancelled an account of 1,800,0001., which we had against them. He had, therefore, now 1,000,0001. less in assets th an a t th e commence ment of the year. But since that Company was to pay 500,0001. that must be deducted from the 1,800,0001., leaving 1,300,0001., which we had been entitled to receive, but which we should be so no longer. A mutual explanation betwixt the Chancellor of the Exche quer and Mr. Calcraft here took place across the table, which was inaudible in the 'Gallery. Mr. J. SMITH said, he had always been friendly to a sink ing Fund, and to the idea of keeping up the funds, because by that mode they would find means to lower the rate of interest. There were two ways of accomplishing this desirable object— an honest and a dishonest ; and the former he hoped would al ways be preferred. The high price of the funds advanced public credit both at home and abroad, and therefore conduced to that end. He could not think that the agricultural distress would continue long. There was a remedy for all these evils, and he never knew an article of consumption to be cheap for a long time without becoming suddenly excessively dear. It was not, therefore, fair to urge against the sinking fund the distress of this portion of the empire. Mr. BROUGHAM said, it was with regret he observed the novelty that attended the Right Hon. Gentleman's opening his budget OR the present occasion. He alluded to the want of what was a general concomitant of this operation, of some Country Gentlemen or other independent Member not con nected with Government to congratulate the Right Honour able Gentleman and the House upon his successful exertions. That they had not this night ; for the Right Hon. Gentleman's great champion was the Honourable Secretary tcr the Treasury. Here at all everts they had made a saving; for they had turned their own trumpeters.--(A laugh.)—lf they were to believe their impartial Secretary, there never were such eco nomical Ministers as those to whom he himself belong ed. First of all they had done much by their five years Committees. Next they had done more than a century of 'Ministers in the way of saving the public money. All this was very well in the way of panegyrie ; but in his opinion it would have been better for the Honourable Secretary to have left that vague mode of dealing with the question, and came to the pinch with his Hon. Friend the Member for Abing don. He should be glad to know what they had done. The estimate of the Committee of Finance, of 1817, was 25,100,0001. The Expenditure last year was 26,600,0001. nearly, instead of being less • and for this-year there was only a reduction of 800,0001. from last year's estimate. But what were they to say of that reduction, when they knew that provisions had come down twenty-five, and he might almost say fifty per cent. ? At this rate there ought to be five millions of a reduction, instead of less than one million. He could not, therefore, at all go along with th e a bl e and very impartial panegyric given .by the Secretary of the Treasury to the First Lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He thought his Honour able Friend (Mr. Moberly) had distinctly' pointed out the principle upon which reductions in the public expenditure should be made. He maintained that no superannuation al lowance should ever be given where persons were appointed to other lucrative offices. 'flee observations of his Hon. Friend on the subject of appointing persons ripe for' superannuation to first appointments in public offices, were worthy of attention. The Honourable Secretary- had been so desirous of conflicting with Hon. Members on his side of the House, that be was not content with those who had spoken, but he must take tice of those who had not spoken,but had merely cheercu. He for one certainly did cheer that part of the-Hon. Secretary's statement which referred to the East India Company's His cheer, and that of his f r iend s , went to say that it was a very odd sort .of cl a i m , w h en th e claimants consented take 1,300,0001. out of 5,000,0001. demanded. At least he had a right to say that they would have been greatly overpaid if they had got 10s. in the pound. The best way of supporting pub lic credit was to pursue a rigid and even parsimonious system of economy. Mr. C. SMITH said a few words, which were inaudible in the Gallery. The first Resolution was then put and carried. AUSTRIAN -LOAN. On the second Resolution being put, Mr. P. GRENFELL begged to call the attention of the House to the subject of the debt of Austria to this country. The last time it was mentioned in the House the Noble Marquis stated that he had not given up hopes of recovering it. ' He be lieved it was at present 17 millions, and although he did not look forward very sanguinely to the receipt of that money, he hoped the Noble Marquis would not give up all attempts to recover it. ;Why should not -the bond be sold ?—they would, no doubt, in this enterprisingcountry, find purchasers, and any sum was better than nothing. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY assured the Honour able Member that the negotiation for a compromise of the debt in question was now in progress, and without pledging him self' to any thing, he had no hesitation in saying that he had hopes of success. Whatever should be the result, however, the House would be entitled to know it. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he hoped that theliquidation would not be of the same nature as the settlement of the East India Company's Debt. THE LOTTERY. On the Resolution that 200,0001. be granted for the Lottery, ' Mr. J. MARTIN opposed it, and called for a division. Mr. HUME said, he hoped this, which had so long been a bone of contention, would be given up. After a few wprds from Mr. W. SMITH, the Committee di vided— For the Resolution - - - Against it - - Majority in favour of it - --40 The remaining Resolutions were then agreed to: the house resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. The Chairman obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday. ALIEN BILL. Mr. PEEL moved that the Committee on the Aliens' Regulation Bill. Mr. HOBHOUSE said he, felt himself bound to oppose this motion. When he declared he would move perpetual adjournment, he did not mean that he would offer vexatious 9- position ; all he meant to promote was the due consideration of the bill. He might be excused• for desiring to resist this bill, since an Honourable Member, who was now amongst his Majesty's Ministers, had, in 1816, declared, that if it were at tempted to renew such a Bill, it ought to be met by " physical force, if not by bodily resistance." He saw no necessity for continuing the bill, and he was mortified beyond descrip tion when the Right Honourable Secretary gave notice that he should apply to the House for a continuance of the bill.-- If he was shocked then, what must be his astonishment when he afterwards heard the measure asked for as one of confi- dence ? The - Right Honourable Gentleman had in fact said— " Give me this power, for I want it ; give me this power, I will not abuse it." That was the plain meaning of the ground on which the measure was asked—they were to have confidence in the Ministers. However, it would be worth while to go back to • first principles. The Bill of 1792—and ali the Bills had resulted from'that measure—was required, as Mr. Burke then said, " to keep out murderous atheists, who only desire to pull down Chur c h a nd St a t e ." B u t a ll th e n said that it was a power, the granting of which could only be justified by the most urgent necessity. Indeed, Mr. Burke declared that such a power, in• a period of peace, would be " too much for liberty." The Attornejr- - General for Ireland (Mr. Plunkett), however, had no such opinions; he differed from Mr. Burke; he thought there- was no danger in such a Bill. In _lBO2 the Bill was received on the ground of the instability of Buonaparte's power; and in 1814 Mr. 11. Ad dington demanded it on account of the instability of the power of the Bourbons. He alluded to what had been stated on former occasions, to show that the Bill had never before been asked for, without some grounds, some pretexts being urged apparently to justify the application. But now no reasons were adduced; they were to have confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman, who said he would not abuse the power. It was no question with him whether the Right Hon. Gentleman would or would not abuse the power ; what he maintained was, that the existence of such a law was in itself an abuse.—(Hear !)—He did not care whether the Bill was used or not; he repeated, that such a la* was an abuse. With regard 'to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Peel), who was to be responsible for the exercise of this power, he should say sine studio et ira, and without feeling any personal hostility towards him, that he „saw no thing in him but a minister most dangerous to the liberties of his country ; he saw nothing in him that recommended any measure of his. He saw in the Right Hon. Gentleman a great deal of consistency, and . an uniform adherence to the principles with which he had set out in public life. But in all this he saw nothing but a keener edge, which rendered his talents more formidable to the liberties of his country, and made him a person quite different from some of his pre decessors. He must therefore say that the Right Honourable Gentleman was one who could nirlt be considered as entitled to have this responsible power. Had Lord Chatham cpme down after his glorious career, and said he would not abuse this power, he (Mr. H.) would not give it to him. He would ask if it was to preserve the domestic peace and Constitu tion of England, that three men and one old woman had been sent out of this country ? How could those persons have been dangerous to the liberties of England ? He denied th a t there was a great or admitted evil arising from aliens coming to this country ; and if there was any thing of the kind, it Origi nateA in the brain of the Right Hon. Gentleman. Suppose some Neapolitans were to come to England with an intention of devising some means of ridding their Country from the ty ranny of the Austrians, would the Right Hon. Gent. feel himself justified in sending those unfortuate persons away ? If he did so, must he not be an abettor of the numerous acts of tyranny and oppression which had 'lately been exercised in Europe?— (Hear, hear !)—and would he not act in direct hostility to the principles of all the English Ministers who had come before him ? It was said that this Bill had never been abused"; but would it not be recollected that the late Sir Samuel Romilly produced several instances in which the power had been abused ? Was it not known that an Italian named Marietti, whose evidence was particularly required on a celebrated trial, was afraid to come to this country lest he should be sent away under the Alien Act ? The Noble Lord opposite, who was very fond of paradoxes, had said that this Bill was a proof of hospitality on the part of Eng land. This was, indeed, taking the bull by the horns. It was, forsooth, an act of hospitality in the Government to keep 25,000 foreigners constantly at their mercy, and liable to be turned out of the kingdom whenever they should choose to do so ! In 1764, in a debate on general warrants, Lord Chatham admitted that he did an extraordinary act with regard to a foreigner whom he sent out of the country, and said he was justified by the emergency which then ex isted in a time of war, and for which, lie said, lie woule, on account of the peculiar circumstance, be responsible with - his head. This cautions manner in which Lord Chathani spoke of the act, *bowed that it had not been the practice of our an cestors to exercise the power now entrusted to Ministers: The Right Honourable Gentleman talked of the acquiescence of the peopre to this measure; but the people did not acquiesce in any thing of this kind ; for the power of sending 25,000 persons out of the country was as great an infnngement on the liberties of mankind as couldhe conceived. The Right Honourable Gentleman' had talked of a revolutionary devil being abroad. He (Mr. p) did not recollect such a devil as this; but if such ever existed, lie believed he was now suc ceeded by another devil, described by Pope in these lines— " Satan, now grown wiser than of yore, Succeeds by making rich, not making poor." Here the Hon. Member quoted extracts from speeches formerly delivered by some of the Gentlemen opposite against an Alien Bill ; and those Gentlemen had at one time declared they would not take a share' In any Administration if they were to be dragged through the mire of the Alien Bill. - One of these was the present President of the Board of Controul. He looked on this Bill as so odious and horrible, that he would oppose it with all his might in every stage. Mr. F. ROBINSON denied that this measure was brought forward in subserviency to other States ; or that it was con trary to the principles of the Constitution. The only argu ment advanced, to show that it was hostile to the laws and Constitution' of England, was the quotation made from Magna Charta respecting foreigners. But the right which Magna Charta gave to foreigners, was given with an excep tion and a qualification. There could be nothing illiberal or inhospitable in a regulation like the present ; because, while foreigners were hospitably received, that was done on an express condition that they should not embroil us with any foreign State. The mode in which the power was exercised by the Government, was a proof that nothing was done with an &ntent of aiding the views of foreign Powers; for many persons who had fled from their own country, in consequence of the troubles that broke out there, were now living among us in perfect se curity. After all we had suffered from a long war, it was our policy to maintain the relations of peace as long as possible; and there were circumstances now which might disturb those relations, and which.had never existed before. In former times, the ambition of a single Sovereign might be a cause of war ; but causes like this were not now likely to produce a war.— There was, however, a new spirit, arising out of the French Revolution, which was more likely to disturb the peace of Europe than any other circumstance that now existed.— There was a perpectual conflict, between absolute power on the one hand, and revolutionary struggles on the other hand, out of which arose the dangerous spirit to which he alluded— (Hear, hear !) ; and foreigners who were expatriated, and fled to this country, might have views very different from any that existed in former times ; and it was necessary to arm the Go vernment with a power of repressing any danger that might arise out of such a state of things. He admitted that a violent convulsion existing in any other country, would not be a just ground for our interference. But the existence of such an event ought to make us jealous and timid respecting the residence of foreigners amongst us, lest such an offence should be given to foreign Powers, as might embroil us in a war with such Power. This alone was the principle on which he supported the present Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. WILLIAMS said that he objected to the measure is every point of view, more particularly that in which it was re commended for their adoption. The Honourable Secretary demanded to be invested with powers, solely on the ground that those powers would not be abused. Stripping the Hon. Secretary's speech of surmise and allegation, there was no actual case made out to warrant the adoption of the mea sure. The question was taken up on the other side as a le gal one, but he considered it to be more a political than a legal question.—(gear!)—As to the case of analogy taken up by a Right Hon. Gentleman, he was of opinion that it was not well founded ; for, in the worst days of our history, the King had no right to send any person out of the country, without a previous legal process. A writ of ne l exeat Begno was never issued without a bill having been in the first place filed. Aliens were punishable by the law of the land as well as any of the subjects of the country. That respon sibility to the laws should alone be considered as a protection to the State.—(Hear !)—lt was intended that the continua tion of the Alien Bill should be only for six months after the peace ; at least such was the principle admitted in 1793. There,was no similiarity or analogy between the present day and the former periods, when the bill was deemed necessary for the safety of the country. If Gentlemen were willing to view the subject on English grounds alone, it would be suf ficient to defeat the proposed measure. Let • him put a case, which he hoped Gon would avert, that the Greek people should be defeated in their struggle for freedom, and be cast upon this shore as one of refuge and safety. If those men should conspire here for the restoration of the liberty of their native land, would the House grant to the Government the power to immerse those exiled patriots within a dungeon, or drive them away from this country, lest they should destroy our amity and union with our allies the Turks ? He was of opinion by this Bill, that the House betrayed itself and de stroyed the character of the country. He would support the amendment of his Hon. Friend. Mr. H. GURNEY said, that he considered the Alien Bill was quite in operation, even on the showing of the Hon. Secre tary for the Home Department. The Bill was sufficiently ob jectionable to induce him to vote against it. The House then divided— For the Speaker's leaving the Chair, 142—Against it, 60— Majority, 82. Upon our re-admission into the gallery we found the House in Committee, and the Marquis of Londonderry opposing a pro posal for adjournment. He stated that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) had formerly opposed adjourn ments under the same circumstances: which induced him to support this one. • Mr. BROUGHAM—If he had on , some former occasions supported the somewhat effeminate practice of adjournments, it was when the House was in the middle of a debate, whereas the present question would, at that late hour, bring on a new discussion. Mr. PETER MOORE said, that though there was but one blank in the bill, yet that blank went to regulate the numerous bills which had formerly been passed. He therefore thought, that the whole of its clauses should be categorically examined, clause by clause, just as if it had never been passed into a law. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY could not flatter the Hon. Member with such hopes of that kind of enjoyment as would be an inducement for the House to postpone the discus sion. The first clause of the bill was read, and the question put, that the blank in the years of its duration be filled up by the word " two." Mr. HOBHOUSE proposed to substitute the word " one" instead. Mr. DENMAN would oppose the amendment, as it was an agreement with the principle of the bill. The House divided on the question of Adjournment— For it 37—Against it 144—Majority 107. While strangers were excluded, we understand that the ques tion was put that the blank be filled up by the word " two." Ayes 125—Noes 55—Majority 70 On our returnto the Gallery, we found the Committee dis cussing an amendment to the preamble, which we understood was proposed by Mr. Brougham. A conversation took place between Mr. Wetherell, Alder-, man Heygate, Mr. Peel, Mr. W. Smith, Sir R. Wilson, and Mr. Brougham. t After which strangers were ord'ered to withdraw, but as no division took place, we presume it was either negatived or with drawn. Mr. WESTERN stated that his intended Resolutions, for Wednesday, he should simply move to have printed. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, ate* which the, ouse adjourned at Two o'clock. PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF COMMONS. J Lunee, 10 die ulii, 1822. Mr. Speaker rerte the Royal Assent,—to Military and val Pensions Bill; Tonnage Duties Repeal Bill ; Assessr, Taxes Composition Bill ; Sheriffs Depute Bill ; Cirencester Road Bill ; Napier's, Lord Anson's, and Firshild's Estates Bills ; and Doyle's Divorce Bill. HIGHGATE CHAPEL BlLL—Presented, and read a first time' to be read a second time on Friday. MIDDLESEX COUNTY RATES BILL Read a third time' METROPOLIS POLICE BILL and passed. LAND REVENUE ( IRELAND) BILL -1 _ ..;ort ti RoADs—Kirkintulroch, and Bouth war k an d Surrey (Pv"--.„- of Wm. Lancefield an d o th ers , C oac h Proprietors o f Ca u l ', '. berwell,. against ; refer re d to the Committ ee on the D"' Counsel ordered) —read a second time, and committed. ed ;, NATIONAL MONU MENT IN S COTLAND BlLL—rep* ~,.d Report to lie on the t a bl e . P et i t i on o f Contributors, for r towards building a Chu rc h ; t h e King'sßeconnuendation bi g .. nified ' • to be printed. , firs SALT D UTIES 1 REPEAL BILL Presented, and read a SALT DUTIES (IRE LAND ) BILL tittle ; to be read a seco nd STAGE COACH DUT IES BILL time to-morrow (this day)' JURIES (SCOTLAND) BILL 1 Reported; to be read a 3d time NEW CHURCHES BILL to-morrow (this day.). ,„. RIBBON 'WEAVERS—Petition of, from Co ventr y, f o r a Law to settle Disputes b e t ween M asters and Journeymen ; to v printed. Gas WASHINGS, &c. BlLL—Second reading deferred till Wednesday. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS—That they have agree _, Hearth and Wind ow T ax Repeal (Ireland) Bill, and b .- - 1 '" mainham Pensions Bill, without amendment. FIVE PER CENT. C ONTRACTS B ILL Report s f ur thercoo si A - GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS(IRE- dered; Bills to re- 1 ' LAND) BILL a third time fo-In °r ' . row day). ~1 PRISON LAWS AMEN DMENT (IRELAND) BI (t LL his —re Pert - ' to he read a third time on Thursday next. NOTICES OF MOTIONS for THIS DAY. 1. Mr. Hobhouse,—Repeal of House and Window Tax. 2. Mr. Goulburn,—To renew the Insurrection Act (Ireland•), -- 3. Mr. Wodehouse„To repeal Exci se Li cences A ct [c• 2il of the present Session. 4. Mr. Goulburn,—Bill to amend the Act [53 Geo. 3, c. I° l relative to appointment of Commissioners for Endow Schools in Ireland. ORDERS OF THE DAY for THIS DAY. 1. Receivers General Bill—Further consideration of Report 2. Tithes Leasing (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading. 3. Ecclesiastical Dues (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading. 4. Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment (Ireland) 13i11.- - ‘ 1 " mittee. 5. Register Office (Scotland) Bill—Committee. G. Stamp Duties Bill—Committee. 7. Salt Duties Repeal Bill—Second Reading. 8. Juries (Scotland) Bill—Third Reading. 9. Salt Duties (Ireland) Bill—Second Reading. 10. Ways and Means—Report. 11. Bankruptcy Joint Commission Bill—Committee. 12. Five per Cent. Contracts Bill—Third Reading. 13. Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland) Bill—Third Rem ' ' ' 14. Supply—Report. 15. New Churches Bill—Third Reading. 16. Small Notes Bill—Second Reading. 17. Scottish Spirits Exportation—Committee thereupon -18. Stage Coach Duties Bill—Second Reading. PRIVATE BILL —Second Reading, for THIS DAY • Orphan's Fund. LIST OF THE MINORITY OF 34 WHO VOTED FOR, toT' THE ABOLITION OF THE -- TERM TAX. Althorp, Visct. Hobhouse, J. C. Brougham, Henry Jervoise, G. P. Butterworth, J. Marjoribanks, S. Barham, J. F. Morl a nd, Si r S. Bernal, R. Martin, J. Benyon, Benj. .Moore, Peter Concannon, 14. Macdonald, J. Ca'craft, John Newport, Sir J. Denman, Thos. Palmer ' C. F. Grenfell, P.' Parnell, Sir H. Graham, S. Ricardo, David Hutchinson, Hon. Smith, G. C. H. Smith, John Scott, James Sebright, Sir d. Smith, Wm• Scarlett, J. Williams, IV. Williams, J. f Whitbread, w• Whitbread, S• G• Wilson, C. TELLER• Hume, Joseph F STOCKS ONE 0 - CLOCK. India Stock shu t India Bonds South Sea Stock shut Old Annuities New Annuities . shut 3 per Cent. 1751........•• shut Ex. Bills „,pr. Par India for Con. Acct •.. Cons. for Acct. 81 819 pug 81 PRICE O. TIIIS DAY AT Bank Stock 242 3 per Cent. Red. 80 79 8 3 per Cent. Cons. shut 31 per Cent. 9O 1 4 per cent. { N 01 e d w 97A9 8 61 , 9 7 7i 5 per Cents. 1797 " Bank Long Ann. 20# 7.l6ths Irnp. 3 per Cents. PRICE of FOREIGN STOCKS IN LONDON, itrtY l• French Five per Cents. 91 75. Prussian Five per. Cent. Bonds, 86/ 7. Old Bonds, 1001. Colombian Six per Cent. Bonds, 83. Ditto Scrip, 831. 5 Five per Cent. Bonds, 611 4. ( New Ditto, 61i. Five per Cent. 'bonds, 844 Five per Cent. Bonds, 70. Six per Cents. 1 Five per Cents. (Metallic) ni. Five per Cents. (Metallic). 80 79i J. 82/. Spanish Danish Neapolitan Russian Austrian Chili Russian HIGH WATER AT LONDON BRIDGE TO-M 01101;: Morning, 40 minutes after 0. 1 Evening, 5 minutes after_..., THE SUN:,., SOLEM QUIS DICERE FALSUM AUDE4T LONDON, TUESDAY, JULY 2, 1822. We receiv e d thi s morn i ng t h e P aris P a pers ° f Saturday. On the previous day, the Chamb er of Deputies adopted the article of the law f°r regulating the Custom Duties which impos es duty of 95 f. on foreign Sugars. The followl4 are extracts : C 4 CRONSTADT (TRANSYLVANIA), JUNE 9. --ljet ters from Moldavia and Wallachia, the accu rac ' of which, ho wever , we cannot guarantee, Os°t that the plan for the new organization of the Principalities, drawn up by the Divan, or , ac cording to the Austrian Observer, by the Su it° himself, and which, according to the same Journ al / is to fulfil the wishes and to constitute the happiness of these countries, has at leng th been transmitted to, the Kiaga Bey, an d ° l e Turkish Chiefs com man di ng i n W a ll a chia a nd Moldavia. They have communicated it t° the heads of towns and villages, and • have d e " sired them to address petitions to the Sultan e grant them this system o f G overn ment. — ll % plan comprizes thi r t een ar ti c l es , two of w i t comprehend the clause th a t th o s e who speak tffl a Sclavonian dialects (i nc l u di ng th e Russian) an the Greeks are incapable of holding any eniP lo.. ment in Wallachia, and are to quit the country in a short time and abandon their possessions.' This The natives are eligible to every office.